A Defence of the Apology of the Church of England, containing an Answer to a certain Book lately set forth by M. harding, and Entitled, A Confutation of etc.  
By john jewel Bishop of Sarisburie.  3. ESDRAE. 4. 
Magna est Veritas & praevalet.  
Great is the Truth, and prevaileth.  
ET INVENTA EST PERIIT   printer's or publisher's device 
Imprinted at London in Fleetstreet, at the sign of the Elephante, by Henry Wykes.  
Anno 1567. 27. Octobris.  
Cum Gratia & Privilegio Regiae Maiestatis.   

TO THE MOST VIRTUOUS, and Noble Princess, Queen Elizabeth, by the Grace of God, Queen of England, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc.  
IT had been greatly to be wished, most Gracious Sovereign Lady, that, as God of his mercy hath geeven us, ever since the first time of your majesties most happy government, such success in all civil affairs, such concord, and quietness in all Estates, as our Fathers seldom have seen before: so our hearts with like felicity might thoroughly have consented in the profession of one undoubted Truth, and all our wills, which now are so violently rent a sunder, and so far distracted, might fully have joined together in the Will of God: that all quarrels, and contentions set apart, we might with one mouth, and one mind glorify God, the Father of our Lord jesus Christ. How be it, it appeareth by the continual story, and whole discourse of the Holy Scriptures, that Almighty God, of his deep judgements, and secret Providence, suffereth some men oftentimes to delight in darkness, to withstand the Gospel, to seek occasions, and wilfully to set themselves against the knowledge, and Truth of God. I writ not this, Most Gracious Lady, to th'intent to make them odious in your majesties sight, that this day are the procurers of all these troubles. God is able even of the hard unsensible stones to raise up children unto Abraham, and to make them the vessels of his Mercy. Nevertheless, as S. Paul teacheth us, such men there have been in times passed, 
1. Timoth. 4.  that have had their Consciences burnt with hot irons, speaking and maineteininge Lies in Hypocrisy: 
Roman. 1.  that have geeven themselves over into reprobate, and wilful minds, and have despised the Wisdom of God within themselves. And, notwithstanding such battles, and dissensions, specially in the Church of God, which is called the House of Unity, be offensive, and grievous unto the Godly, and therefore work great hindrance unto the dew passage of the Gospel of Christ, yet in the end the trouble hereof in God's Elect is recompensed abundantely with great advantage. For God's Truth is mighty, and shall prevail: Dagon shall fall down headlong before the Ark: the Darkness shall flee before the Light: and the more fiercely man's wisdom shall withstand, the more glorious shall God be in his Victory.  
But, shortly to discourse unto your Majesty the particular occasions hereof from the beginning, after it had pleased Almighty God, at the first entire of your majesties Reign, by a most happy exchange, and by the means of your majesties most Godly travails, to restore unto us the Light, and comfort of his Gospel, there was written, and published by us a Little Book in the Latin tongue, entitled, An Apology of the Church of England, containing the whole Substance of the Catholic Faith, no we professed, and freely preached throughout all your majesties Dominions: that thereby all foreign Nations might understand the considerations, and causes of your majesties doings in that behalf. Thus in old times did Quadratus, Melito, justinus Martyr, Tertullian, and other Godly, and Learned Fathers, upon like occasions, as well to make known the Truth of God, and to open the grounds of their Profession, as also to put the Infidels to silence, and to stop the mouths of the wicked.  
This Apology, being thus written first in Latin, and afterward, upon the comfortable report of your majesties most Godly enterprises, translated into sundry other tongues, and so made common to the most part of all Europe, as it hath been well allowed of, and liked of the Learned, and Godly, as it is plain by their open testimonies, touching the same, so hath it not hitherto, for aught, that may appear, been anywhere openly reproved, either in Latin, or otherwise, either by any one man's Private writing, or by the Public Authority of any Nation.  
Only one M. harding, not long sithence your majesties subject, now misliking the present state, and resiante in Louvain, hath of late taken upon him, against the said Apology, with the whole Doctrine, and all the parts of the same, to publish an open Confutation, and to offer the same unto your Majesty: wherein he showeth himself so vehement, and so sharp, and busy in finding faults, that he doubteth not to seek quarrels against us, even in that we maintain the Baptism of Christian Infants, the proceeding, and godhead of the Holy Ghost, the Faith of the Holy, and Glorious Trinity, and the General, and Catholic Profession of the common Creed. Thus, for that he hath once severed himself from us, he beareth now the world in hand, we can believe nothing without an error.  
The maigne ground of his whole plea is this, That the Bishop of Rome, what so ever it shall like him to Determine in judgement, 
Confu fol. 334. a.  can never err: that he is always undoubtedly possessed of Gods. Holy Spirit: 
Conful. fol. 285. b.  that at his only hand we must learn to know the Will of God: 
Confuta. 324. b.  that in his only Holiness standeth the Unity, 
Confut. 204. b.  and safety of the Church: that who so ever is divided from him, 
Confut. 306. b.  must by judged an Heretic: and, that without the obedience of him, there is no hope of Salvation. And yet, as though it were not sufficient for him, so vainly to sooth a man in open Errors, he telleth us also sadly, and in good earnest, that the same Bishop is not only a Bishop, but also a King: that unto him belongeth the Authority, 
Confut. fol 280. a.  and right of both Swords, 
Et 305. b.  as well Temporal, as Spiritual: that all Kings, and Emperors receive their whole power at his hand, 
Confu. fol. 247. b  and aught to swear obedience, 
Confu. fol. 248. b.  and Fealty unto him. For these be his words, even in this Book so boldly dedicated unto your Majesty: 
Confu. fol. 178. b.  It is a great eye soar, saith M. harding, to the Ministers of antichrist, to see the Vicar of Christ above Lords, and Kings of this world, and to see Princes, and emperors promise, and swear obedience unto him. And whereas Pope Zacharie by the consent, 
Confut at. Folio 178. b.  or conspiracy of the Nobles of France, deposed Chilperichus, the true, natural, and liege Prince of that Realm, and placed Pipinus in his room, Lo, saith M. harding, ye must needs confess, that this was a Divine power in the Pope: for otherwise he could never have done it. Thus much he esteemeth the dishonoures', 
Confutat. Fol. 182. a.  and overthrows of Gods Anointed.  
Whereas also Pope Boniface the Eighth, for that he could not have the Treasury of France at his commandment, endeavoured with all his both Ecclesiastical, and Worldly puissance, to remove Philip the French King from his estate, and under his Bulls or Letters patents, had conveyed the same solemnly unto Albertus the King of Romans, M. harding here telleth your Majesty, that all this was very well done, to th'intent thereby to fray the King, and to keep him in awe, and to reclaim his mind from disobedience. Now, 
Confut. Fol. 182. b.  touching your majesties most Noble progenitors, the Kings of this Realm, whereas we, as our loyalty, and allegiance bindeth us, justly complain, that Pope Alexander. 3. by violence, and tyranny forced King Henry the second to surrender his Crown Imperial into the hands of his Legate, and afterward for a certain space to content himself in Private estate, to the great indignation, and grief of his loving Subjects: And that likewise Pope Innocentius the third stirred up the Nobles, and Commons of this Realm against king john, and gave the Inheritance, and Possession of all his Dominions unto Ludovicus the French King, (as for the misusinge of your majesties most dear Father of most Noble Memory, king Henry the Eighth, for as much as the smart thereof is yet in fresh remembrance, I will say nothing): To these, and all other like Tyrannical injuries, and just causes of grief, M. harding shortly, and in light manner thinketh it sufficient to answer thus: What though King Henry the second were il entreated of Pope Alexander. 
M. Harding. Fol. 340. b.  3? What though King john were il entreated of that Zealous, and Learned Pope Innocentius. 3? What though King Henry the Eighth were likewise entreated of the Popes in our time? If know right well, Most Sooner aine Lady, the goodness of your gracious Nature delighteth not in such rehearsalles. Neither do I make report hereof, for that such things sometimes have been done: but for that the same things even now at this time, either so lightly are excused, or so boldly are defended. Such humble affection, and obedience these men by their open, and public writings, teach your majesties true Subjects to bear towards their Natural Prince. It shall much warrant the honour and safety of your Royal Estate, if your Majesty shall sometimes remember the dishonours, and dangers, that other your Noble progenitors have felt before you.  
But concerning the Majesty and right of Kings, and Emperors, M. harding telleth us, 
M. Harding. Fol. 318. b.  They have their first Authority by the Positive Law of Nations, and can have no more Power, than the people hath, of whom they take their Temporal lurisdiction: as if he would say, Emperors, and Kings have none other right of Government, than it hath pleased their Subjects by composition to allow unto them. Thus he saith, and saith it boldly: as if God himself had never said, 
prover. 8.  Per me Reges Regnant: By me, and my Authority Kings bear rule over their Subjects: Or, as if Christ our savour had never said unto Pilate the Lord Lieutenant, 
john. 19  Thou shouldest have no Power over me, were it not geeven thee from above: 
Roman. 13.  Or, as if S. Paul had not said, Non est potestas, nisi a Deo: There is no power, but only from God. And yet further, as if their whole study were fully bent to deface the Authority, and Majesty of all Princes, even now one of the same company doubteth not to teach the world, 
Dorman. Fol. 15.  That the Pope is the Head: and Kings, and Emperors are the feet: Like as also an other of the same faction saith, The Emperors Majesty is so far inferior in dignity to the Pope, 
Stanislaus Or●chouius in Ch●maera, Fol. 97.  as a Creature is inferior unto God. We devise not these things of malice, Most gracious Lady, but report the same truly, as we find them proclaimed, and published this day by their vain, and dangerous writings, which notwithstanding they would so feign have to be taken as Catholic. If this Doctrine may once take root, and be freely received amongst the Subjects, it shallbe hard for any Prince to hold his Right.  
As for your Majesty, for that it hath pleased Almighty God in his Mercy, to make you an instrument of his Glory, as in Old times he made many other Godly, and Noble Princes, to reform his Church from that huge, and loathsome heap of filth, and double, that either b, violence, or by negligence had been thrown into it, therefore M. harding even in this self same Book, under certain general threats, chargeth you with disordered presumption, by the example of Ozias the wicked King, 
M. Harding. Fol. 298. a.  upon whom, as he untruly saith, God sent his vengeance for the like. For be the Abuses, and Errors of the Church never so many, be the falls, and dangers never so great, be the Priests, and Bishops never so blind, yet, by this Doctrine, it may never be lawful for the Prince, be he never so learned, or so wise, or so Zealous in God's cause, to attempt any manner of Reformation. And therefore thus he saith unto your Majesty, and with all his skill, and cunning, laboureth to persuade your majesties Subjects, if any one, or other happily of simplicity will believe him, that the Godly Laws, which your Majesty hath geeven us to live under, are no Laws: that your parliaments, 
Confuta. 277. Confut. 328. a. Confuta. 172. b. rejoined. 314. Confut. 87. a. Confut. 269. b. rejoined 42. a. Confut. 43. a. Confut a. 269. a. 323. b. 334. a. 338. a. 348. b.  are no parliaments: that your clergy, is no clergy: Our Sacraments, no Sacraments: Our Faith, no Faith. The Church of England, whereof your Majesty is the most Principal, and Chief, he calleth a Malignante Church, a New Church erected by the Devil, a Babylonical Tower, a heard of antichrist, a Temple of Lucifer, a Synogoge, and a School of Satan, full of Robbery, Sacrilege, Schism, and Heresy. And all this he furnissheth with such liberty of other uncourteous, and unseemly talks, as if he had been purposely hired to speak dishonour of your majesties most godly doings.  
Of all these, and other like Tragical fantasies, for as much as he hath so boldly adventured to make a present unto your Majesty, we have great cause to rejoice in God, for that our controversies are brought to be debated before such a parsonage, as is able so well, and so deeply to understand them. For I have no doubt, but as by your great Learning, and marvelous Wisdom, you shall soon see the difference of our pleadings, so of your majesties gracious inclination unto all Godliness, you will readily find out the Falsehedde, and give sentence with the Truth. Verily, after that your Majesty shall have thoroughly considered the manifest Untruths, and corruptions, together with the Abuses, and Errors of the contrary side: the Weakness of the Cause, the Boldness of the Man, and the immoderate Bitterness of his speech, I have good hope, the more advisedly you shall behold it, the less cause you shall find, wherefore to like it.  
For the discovery hereof, for my poor portion of Learning, I have endeavoured to do, that I was able: And the same here I humbly present unto your Majesty, as unto my most gracious, and Sovereign Liege Lady, and, as now, the only Nurse, and Mother of the Church of God within these your majesties most Noble Dominions. It may please your Majesty graceously to weigh it, and to judge of it, not according to the skill, and ability of the Writer, which is but simple, but according to the weight, and worthiness of the Cause. The poor labours have been mine: the Cause is Gods. The goodness of the one willbe always able to countervail the simplicity of the other.  
God evermore inflame, and direct your Majesty with his Holy Spirit, that the Zele of his House may thoroughly devour your gracious heart: that you may safely walk in the ways of your Father David: that you may utterly abandon all groves, and Hill Altars: that you may live an Old Mother in Israel: that you may see an end of all dissensions, and stablish peace, and Unity in the Church of God. Amen.  
Your majesties most Humble Subject, and Faithful orator, john Sarisburie.   

I. S. 
¶ Good Christian Reader, I have here set before the certain principal flowers of M. hardings modest speech. Taste no more, than may well like thee. And judge thereof, as thou shalt see cause.   M. harding, in the Preface before his Confutation of the Apology. 
The manner of writing, which I have here used, in comparison of our Adversaries, is sober, soft, and gentle, etc. And in respect of their heat, bitterness, and railing, as many tell me, over cold, sweet, and mild.  Again, in the same Confutation. 
There is no man of Wisdom, or honesty, that would with so immoderate upbraidings, impair the estimation of his modesty. Fol. 300. b.  

M. harding.  
Your devilish spite. Rejoinder. fol. 18. b.  
Your devilish wickedness. Rejoinder, prefa. to the Reader.  
Your devilish Villainy. Confuta. fol. 256. b.  
Your railing words of Satan's prompring. Rejoinder. 67. 2.  
You are joined to Satan. Satan your Schoolmaster. Rejoin. 12. b.  
Ye are moved by the instinct of Satan. Confuta. 43. b. 255. a.  
Your Father the Devil. Conf. 2. a.  
Your Babylonical Tower. Confut. 42. a.  
Your New Church set up by Satan. Con. 42. a.  
The Devil hath you fast bound. Con. 24. a.  
Ye are of the School of Satan. Con. 69. b.  
Your Sathanical Sprité. Confuta. 111. b.  
Ye are the Children of the Devil. Con. 115. a.  
A Page, a Slave, a Clawebacke of the Devil. Confuta. 131. a.  
Ye are the limbs of antichrist. Con. 202. a.  
Ye are the practised Ministers of antichrist. Confu. 195. b.  
Ye have taken a pattern from Satan▪ Con. 323. b.  
Your reprobate Congregation. Con. 338. a.  
Your synagogue of Satan. Con. 341. b.  
Your confuse ●entes of Satan. Con. 334.  
Your synagogue of Antichrist, and Lucifer. Confuta. 212. b.  
The Herd of antichrist. Confu. 48. a.  
The Novice of the Devil. Confu.  
The Devil, and his Ministers. 116. b.  
Ye have learned of the Devil. Con. 128. b.  
Your Father the Devil. Confu. 348. b.  
Satan your Master. Confuta. 348. b.  
Satan's brood. Con. 348.  
He hath conceived hatred by the inspiration of Satan. Con. 288. b.  
Satan holdeth you captive. Con. 342. b.  
The Sptite of Satan is in you. 172. a.  
Ye are fast bound in Satan's fetters. Con. 68 a.  
Ye are enemies of Unity. Con. 55. b.  
Enemies of the Sacrifice. Confu. 67. a.  
Ye are lose Apostates. Confu. 323.  
Sacrilegious church-robbers. 323.  
thieves. Con. 155. b.  
Abominable. Con. 17●. a.  
Lecherous Lourdaines. 75. b.  
Profane Hellhounds. Confuta. 114. b.  
Despisers of God. C. 131. b.  
Your wicked, and blasphemous Spirit.  
Your dark, and malicious Soul. rejoined. 104.  
Your heresies. blasphemies, Sathanismes.  
Your filthy railing rabble. Con. 75. b.  
Coluinistes, Sathanistes. Confu. 81. b.  
Your wicked Chams● brood 114. b.  
Your profane malice. C. ●29. b.  
Your vileness. 135. a.  
Your damnable fide. 135. a.  
Your blasphemous tongues.  
Your detestable blasphemies  
Your devilish rabble. 209. b.  
Your Turkish huguenots, worse than Infidels. 282. b  
Your Malignante Church.  
Your Congregation of Reprobates. Con. 269. b.  
Your vile heresies 339. a.  
Your devilish stoutness of heart.  
Your Turkish, and Heathennishe heart. 295. b.  
Your Turkish doctrine. ibi.  
Ye brag Lucifer like. 173. b  
Ye speak villainy.  
Your quarrel is against Christ. Con. 178. b.  
Ye would say, if ye durst, that Christ is the Abomination of desolation, and antichrist is the True God. 194. a.  
When were there ever such thieves in the Church of God. 201. a.  
Your Doctrine is Heresy, your life is iniquity, 172. b  
As crafty knaves in a Comedy. rejoined. 22. a.  
Vain bragging, Vanity, Scurrility, extreme impudency, passing madness. proud vaunting Goliathlike. Re. in pre. 2.  
He is a fool. 186.  
Reasonless, witless. rejoined. 192. a.  
Foolish Negatives. R. pray.  
They are Apes. Con. 1. b They are Asses.  
Any sot would be ashamed to make such arguments. Con. 51. b.  
He hath on his fools coat if he play the Vise well, and Verletlike. Re. 251. b.  
The canker of this false doctrine. rejoined. prefa.  
False Gospelers. Re. pray. Vnshamefaste. 94. a.  
Impious. Impudent, 123. a.  
Ye are passed all shame. 186. a  
A great Liar.  
Boldness in lying.  
Ye Lie for a vantage.  
Your fchole of lying.  
Ye profess lying.  
False Lies.  
Impudent Lies.  
Vain Lies. Bold Lies.  
Loud Lies. fould Lies.  
Shameless Lies.  
railing Lies.  
manifest Lies.  
Notorious Lies.  
Slanderous Lies.  
Horrible Lies.  
We will proclaim you a Liar. 258. b.  
Your Liberty of lying.  
Your Art of lying. 218. b.  
Your Figure of impudent lying. 253. a.  
Ye be desperate in your lying. 277. b.  
You Lie in the plural number. 303. a.  
And what shall I say more but all is Lies. 255. b.  
Leave your Railinge. Re.  
We like not your Railing. 80. a.  
I leave your vile eloquence to yourself. 111. b.  
Your railing terms.  
Your vile eloquence.  
Your scolding tale.  
Your spiteful words. Con. 149. b.  
Your rancour. Your spite.  
Your filthy railings.  
Your vile upbraidings. Con. 175.  
Your Malicious railing. 184. b.  
Your false cankered sclau●ders. 184. b.  
Cease your barking. rejoined. prefa. to the R●a.  
The poison of your tongue rejoined. prefa.  
Your drop of poison.  
Your Serpentine tongue. rejoined. 67. a.  
Such craking Chalenlengers. Re. prefa.  
Your railing Spirit.  
Spit out your Malice.  
Spit out your poison. rejoined. prefa.  
Your hot raging Spirit. Con. 3. a.  
Spit forth your gall. Confu. 23. a.  
Your Heresies, and Villainies. Con. 10. b.  
Your vain boast in wickedness, wrought by the power of Satan. 19 b  
Your filthy railing rabble. 75. b.  
It liketh your filthy Spirit. 101. a.  
Ye cursed Cananees. 121. b  
What crack ye● 128. b.  
The Devil the Schoolmaster of your Malice. 168. a.  
Luther, that filthy Frieze. 192. a.  
your bawdy Bale. 168b.  
Brentius, that shameless railing Hereuque. 288. a  
Cough up the crumb of your Heresy. Re. 167. b.  
Cough out that vile poison. Re. 80.  
Your devilish Blasphemy, and Villainy. 256. b.  
A blast of your railing Spirit, 266. b.  
Luther's stinking sink. 42. b  
Zuinglius rabble. 42. b.  
Your vile, spiteful, blasphemous talk. Re. prefa.  
If there were any spaike of shame in you. 94. a.  
The stinking breath of your vile words. m. b.  
This Defender is like a mad Dog. 207. b.  
Your vile, venomous, and loathsome stuff, 246. b.  
I would I could pluck malice from your blasphemous heart. 292. b.  
With such spitefulness of words, as the Devil hath enrspired them withal. Con. 342. b.  
It spiteth you, and the Devil. 279. a.  
Rail, and revel while ye will. 254. a.  
Ye rave, and cry, out. 177. b.  
The finds of Hell were not yet let lose, that begat Lutherians, and calvinists. Confu. 183. b.  
The Devil coming from Helle, hath carried you away. 225. b.  
In your hearts the Devil hath made his shop. 132. a.  
Ye shallbe bound hand and foot with the cords of the devils clue. 292. a.  
The Devil possesseth you, and rideth you. 255. a.  
The Spirit of the Devil is within you. 255.  
Ye boil in rancour, and malice. 269. b.  
Stamp, and rage. Sturdy dog eloquence. 42. b.  
Stint your barking. R. pray.  
The Devil reigneth in your hearts. 87. b.  
Maugre the malice of the devil, and of all the Sacramentaries. 95. b.  
Your Malice seemeth to pass the malice of the Devil. Re. prefa.  
Ye bark with words more vile, than the barking of a dog. Re.  
Rail until your tongues burn in your heads in Helle fire. 112. a.  
Bark until your bellies break, ye Hellhounds of Zwinglius and Luther's lit●oure. 178. b.  
Without all wit, and modesty. Con. 170. b.  
Cunerus petri de Brouwersha●en. Pastor S. Petri Lovanij indignus approbavit. An. 1565. 10. Aprilis.    
M. harding, in his Preface to M. jewel before the Rejoinder. 
We spare your worships, and put you in mind of your outrage with more Courteous language. Again: I seem to men of right good discretion, rather to offend of lenity, and softness: And many do wish, I had tempered mine ink with sharper ingredience.  
¶ Thus much only out of the Heap. For to lay forth all, it were to make an other Book.  
One demanded this Question of Zoilus the Railet.  
Why takest thou such pleasure in speaking ill?  
Zoilus made answer.  
Because, whereas I would rather do it, I am not able.  

Scoffs, and Scorns.  
M. harding hereof thus reproveth his Adversary.  

Your scornful scoffs. Re. prefa.  
Your Loathsome scoffs. Re. prefa.  
Your scoffing Spirit. Confu. 19  
Yourir kesome cuts. Re. prefa.  
Your art of scoffing. Re. prefa.  
Your scoffing head. 284. a.  
Ye sauce your words with scoffs. 29. 76.  
Ye play Hickscorner. Re. prefa.  
Ye play the Vise in an Interlude. Re. pray.  
Your boieishe and Childish disposition. 314. b.  
Your hoieishe scoffs. 300. a.  
Your boieishe mockeries. 149. a.  
Your bitter twitinge. ibidem.    

M. harding of himself.  
Such grace in writing I neither use, nor covet, nor have I it: nor if I had it, should I think it meet to use. The Truth of God would not be set forth with scoffs. Whose desire to understand the Truth is cold, the same is to be tuarred up rather with grave and earnest exhortations, then with scorns, and mocks. rejoined. In the Preface to the Reader.  

M. hardings performance of the same.  
His Ministerlike talk: with some fadde hypocrisy. Re. prefa.  
His evangelical meekness. Full coldly, and demurely he promiseth. Re. 18. b.  
His solemn Prayer protestantelike. Re. 18. b.  
His Rhetorical persuasions in pulpit: with holy holding up of hands, and casting up of eyes to Heaven. Re. prefa.  
His ministering words. Re. 235.  
His pulpit buzzing. R. pray.  
His holy Companions. 170. b  
This blessed Brotherhood. Confu. 1●. b.  
Ye speak like a liberal gentleman. Con. 284. a.  
This gay Rhetorician. Redjoind. prefa.  
This joily fellow. 9 a.  
This joily Defender. 53. b.  
This worthy Captain. Re. 31. b.  
This substantial doctor. Cuckowlike.  
His glorious Sermon, prefa.  
His worthy courage. R. pray.  
He proveth it like a Clerk. 115  
Well, and Clerkely reasoned forsooth. 219. a.  
His foresaid woorshipful reasons. 276. a.  
His Clerkely prows. 149. b  
Like proper gentlemen. 140. a  
They have tried themselves like proper men. 139 b.  
Luther your Radix less. Con. 42. b.  
Caluine your Patriarch. ●0. a  
Your great rabbin Peter Martyr. Con. 82. a.  
Now come in these reverend Fathers of our new Clergy. Re. 155. a.  
Our ministering Clergi. 146. a  
Our ministering Prelates. 63. a  
Our new Gospel Prelates.  
Our M. john of Sarisburie. 251. b.  
How say yowe Sir Minister Bishop? 56. b.  
The confusion of your Goliathship. Re. prefa.  
Ye speak much of your Ministershippes' goodness. 170. b.  
This is false, saving your Ministerships. Con. 347. b.  
Your Superintendenteshippes. 256. b.  
Your Masterships'. Re. pray.  
Your Masshippes. 247. a.    

M. harding. Confuta. fol. 209. b.  
Thus we come within you Defenders, as it were: and clasping with you, wring your weapon out of your hand: and with the other end of it strike you down: As it is not hard to us, by learning to overthrow you. etc.    

A View of Untruths, Wherewith M. harding thus chargeth his Adversary.  

Aristotle being once asked, what a common Liar gained by his lying, answered thus: That when he telleth Truth, noman will believe him. Confuta. 159. a.  
Who seeth not, and almost feeleth your Lies? 176.  
When will ye foresake the School of lying? 179. a.  
Ye are good in the art of lying. 218. b.  
Ye have sworn to bely all the world. 245. a  
We have taken you tardy in so many, and so manifest Lies. 159. a.  
Being disposed to Lie, he would Lie for a vantage. 157. b.  
Lie so long, as ye list. 150. a.  
All men do espy your lying. 150. b.  
A sumpe of Lies. 5. a.  
Carteloades of Lies. 175.  
A man for his Life cannot find one leaf, in it without many Lies. 219.  
lying to this fellow is Accidens Inseparabile. 273. b.  
Make of it, what ye wil A lie is a lie. 155. b.  
The number of Untruths, uttered of M. Jewels part, noted, and Confuted by others, and by me, amounteth to a thousand, and odd. M. harding in the Preface to the Reader before his Rejoinder.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, good Christian Reader, I have thought it needful, for thy better satisfaction, to give thee a short view of these so horrible, & so shameful Untruths: that by a sew, thou mayst be able, to judge the better of the rest.  

A View of Untruths.  

Rejoinder, Fol. 1.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here appeareth small hope, that M. harding will deal plainly in the rest, that thus maketh his first entry with * a Cavil.   

M. harding.  
1. Untruth. For it is no Cavil. The B. of Sarisburie.  
Whereas the * matter is known, & agreed upon, it is great ●olie, to pike a quarrel unto the word. The matter is, what is meant by private Mass.   

M. harding.  
2. Untruth. It is not known, nor agreed upon.  
The B. of Sarisburie.  
Every Mass, saith M. harding, is * common, & none Private.   

M. harding.  
3. Untruth. I say not so, but with addition, which maketh certain limitation.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If there be * no Private Mass at all, then was there no private Mass in the primitive Church: which was my first assertion.   

M. harding.  
4. Untruth. It is not said, There is no Private Mass at al. For there is Private Mass, as Private is taken in an other sense.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. Harding in his. 22. Article, entreating of the Accidents of Bread, & Wine, etc. calleth that thing Private, that is disputed in open Audience, in the hearing of five hundred, or more, and is set abroad to the knowledge of the world.   

M. harding.  
5. Untruth. In that place I speak not hereof, but of M. jewels fine last Articles.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
He saith, These matters were never taught in open Audience, but Privately disputed in the Schools.   

M. harding.  
6. Untruth. I say not so, but otherwise.   

The B of Sarisburie.  
As for the Mass, sometimes he maketh it the Sacrifice, sommetime the * Communion etc.   

M. harding.  
7. Untruth. I never said the Communion to be the Mass.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If the Sacrifice be common, why doth he give it these Private Cities, This for the Living, This for the Dead, & c?   

M. harding.  
8. Vntruther. I give not the Sacrifice these Titles.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
He saith, It is a feast, & therefore it is common. And thus he salueth one error with an other.   

M. harding.  
9 Untruth. It is no error, to say, The Communion, which is in the Mass, is a Feast.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What if the Priests will be, to work Necromancy, or Sorcery, as it is reported of Pope Hildebrande?   

M. harding.  
10. Untruth. This is not veported by any grave, and true writer: But by them that flattered the Emperor of that time.   

A Reply.  
This story is largely set out by Beno, Cardinale of the Church of Rome. Vrspergensis saith, Manifestum Necromanticum. An. 1080.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What if the Piestes will be, to poison some body, as Henry the Emperor was poisoned in the Communion Bread?   

M. harding.  
11. Untruth. He was not so poisoned: but died otherwise.   

A Reply.  
Vrspergensis saith, Quidam Religiosus tradidit Imperatori intoxicatam Eucharistiam. An. 1313. Likewise saith Aventinus, Bap. Egnatius, Supplementum Chronicor. Ravi. Textor, Carion. etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Pope Victor was poisoned in the Chalice.   

M. harding.  
12. Untruth. He died otherwise.   

A Reply.  
He died even so. Read Martinus Polonus, Volaterranus, Matthaeus Palmerius, Supplementum Chronicorum, Fasciculus Temporum, Ravi. Textor, Anselmus Rid, Massaeus Cameracensis, Vrsperg. Pag. 230.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Lyra saith, Many miracles are wrought in the Church * to mock the people.   

M. harding.  
13. Untruth. Lyra saith it not.  
14. Untruth, To wocke the people, is not in Lyra.   

A Reply.  
The words of Lyra be very plain, Aliquando in Ecclesia fit maxima deceptio populi in Miraculis fictis à Sacerdotibus, vel eis adhaerentibus, propter Lucrum: sometimes even in the Church the the people is shamefully deceived with feigned Miracles, wrought either by the Priests, or else by their companions, for lukers' sake. In Daniel. Ca 14.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
S. Jerome saith, Dominica Coena omnibus debet esse Communis.   

M. harding.  
15. Untruth. S, Jerome is not the author of those brief Commentaries.   

A Reply.  
Thes are printed among other S. Hieromes works, and are commonly known by his name: but by any other Anthours name they are not known.   
These he fiftiene of the first horrible great Lies, that M. harding hath so advisedly noted in his Rejoinder. It were but lost labour to proceed further. As these are, even so are the rest.  
Now, good Reader, may it please thee, to take a prouse of other Untruths, that after great travail, & seeking, he hath likewise found out in the Apology.  

The Apology. part 2. Cap. 4. Diuis. 2.  
The Council of Carthage provided, that no Bishop should be called either the Highest Bishop, or the Chief Priest.   

M. harding.  
1. Here, Sir Defender, ye play false. Ye are taken with false Dice. False play, shameful falsifieinge, false teaching, false sleight, forging of Canons, your Lie your falsehood. Shame on you Defender. How so ever this Canon be construed, it taketh no place out of Aphrica: and therefore cannot justly be alleged against the Bishop of Rome.   

The Reply.  
The words of the Council, alleged by Gratian, are these: Primae sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum, vel Summus Sacerdos, vel aliquid huiusmodi: Sed tantùm, primae Sedis Episcopus. universalis autem nec etiam Romanus Pontifex appelletur.   

The Apology. part 2 Cap. 12. Diuis. 2.  
Calixtus decreed, that the Consecration being finished, all the people should Communicate etc.   

M. harding.  
2. Untruth. This Decree had Relation unto the Priests, Deacons, and Subdeacons, and not unto the people.   

The Reply.  
Here M. harding is soon reproved even by his own Doctors, Durandus, Hugo, Cochlaeus, Clichtoveus. For thus they say, Omnes olim, tum Sacerdotes, tum Laici cum Sacrificante communicabant etc. Hîc unicum hac de re Canonem recitabo. qui Calixto adscribitur.   

The Apology. part 2. Ca 8. Diuis. 2.  
Gregorius Nazianzenus saith, speaking of his own Father, that a good, & a diligent Bishop doth serve in the ministery never the worse, for that he is Married, but rather the better.   

M. harding.  
3. Untruth. Ye make manifest Lies. Ye use your accustomed figure Pseudologia, which is lying in plain English, etc. How could he say, that a Bishop serveth in the ministery never the worse, but rather the better? etc.   

The Reply.  
This error of M. hardings grew of Ignorance. For nazianzens' words be very plain: Meo Patri Mater mea, data illi à Deo, non tantùm Adiutrix facta est, sed etiam Dux, & Princeps, verbo, factoque inducens illum ad res optimas etc. In pietate non verebatur seipsam illi Magistram exhibere. In Epitaphio Patris.   

The Apology. part 6. Ca 5▪ Divi. 2.  
Pope Liberius was a favourer of the Arian Heretics.   

M. harding.  
4. Untruth. That you say of Liberius is stark false. He never favoured the Arians.   

The Reply.  
The author hereof is S. Jerome, De Ecclesiasticis Scriptoribus. In Fortunatiano. And one of M. hardings own principal Doctoures saith, De Liberio Papa constat fuisse Arianum.   

The Apology. part 6 Ca.▪ 5. Divi. 2.  
Pope Zosimus corrupted the Council of Nice.   

M. harding.  
5. Untruth. Ye bely Zosimus: He corrupted not the Council of Nice.   

The Reply.  
This matter most plainly appeareth by the Records of the Council of Aphrica.   

The Apology. part 6 Cap 5 Diuis. 2.  
Pope john held a detestable opinion touching the immortality of the Soul.   

M. harding.  
6. Untruth. That you report of Pope john, is likewise most false. The worst that Marsilius, and Ockam wrote of him, is, that he taught openly, that the Souls of the lust see not God, until the day of judgement. That he had any detestable opinion of the Immortality of the Soul, there was no such his opinion: But it is your false slander: by which your wicked, and detestable maltce, ye imagine to deface the Authority of the Holy See apostolic.   

The Reply.  
Gerson in Sermone Paschali: Pope john 22. decreed, that the Souls of the wicked should not be punished, before the day of the last judgement. Which error the Vntuersitie of Parise condemned for Heresy, and caused the Pope to recant.  
Concil. Constantien. in Appendice. In primis Quin imò johannes Papa. 22. dixit, & pertinaciter credidit, Animan hominis cum corpore humano mori▪ & extingui, ad instar animalium brutorum. Dixitque, mortuum semel, etiam in Novissimo  
Die, minimè esse resurrecturum.   

The Apology. part 6. Ca 6. Divi. 1.  
The canonists sale, The Pope can do as much, as Christ himself can do.   

M. harding.  
7. Untruth. The most part hereof is very false, and slanderous. Mentiris in your Divinity is a Verb Commune.   

The Reply.  
The words be most manifest, & out of all question: Excepto peccato, Papa potest, quicquid Deus ipse potest. Extra, De translatione Episcopi. Quanto. Hostien.   

The Apology. part 6. Ca 6. Divi. 1.  
some of them have said, The Pope is the Light, that is come into the world: And, who so is an ill doer, fleeth that Light.   

M. harding.  
8. Untruth. If ye were hardly charged, to show, where he said it, or, where he wrote it, ye would be found a Liar, as in many other points ye are found already. That he never wrote it in any of his eloquent Italian Sermons, set forth in Print, I am assured. And more hath he not set forth. Now it remaineth, that ye tell us, where he saith so or else confess your slanderous Lie.   

The Reply.  
In the Oration, that Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto pronounced in the Council of trident, ye may find these words: Papa Lux venit in Mundum: Sed dilexerunt homines tenebras magis quàm Lucem.   

The Apology▪ part 4. Ca 1. Divi. 1.  
They have decreed, that a Priest, for Fornication ought not to be removed from his Cure.   

M. harding.  
9 Untruth. This is a foul Lie. And herein these men most shamefully have slandered the Church: as, by that I have said, to any man it may appear.   

The Reply.  
But unto the best learned canonists it appeareth far otherwise. Panormitane saith, Hodiè ex Simplici Fornicatione Clericus non deponitur. Extra. De Consangui. & Affini. Non debet. Likewise it is solemnly noted in great letters in the Margin, Fornicationes causa hodiè nemo est deponendus.   

The Apology. part 6. Ca 14. Divi. 1.  
In the Council of Chalcedon the Civil Magistrate condemned iiJ. Bishops, Dioscorus, Iwenalis', & Thalassius, for Heretics, & gave judgement, that they should be deposed.   

M. harding.  
10. Untruth. That all these three were condemned in that Council▪ we find not. Much less. that they were condemned by any Civil Magistrate, do we find etc. What is impudency? What is licentious lying? What is deceitful dealing, if this be not?   

The Reply.  
These be the words, pronounced openly in the Council, Videtur nobis justum esse, eidem poenae Dioscorum Reverendum Episcopum Alexandria, & Iwenalem Reverendum Episcopum Hierosolymorum, & Thalassium Reverendum Episcopum Caesariae Cappadociae subiacere. Concil. Chalcedonen. Actione. 1. Pag. 831.   

Rejoinder. Fol. 251. b. The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. Harding helpeth it forward with a little pretty false translation of his own. For, whereas it is written in the Latin, Cùm benedixisset Sancta, He translateth it thus, When he had consecrated the Sacrament. And likewise these words, Post finem Orationum, he translateth thus: After he had done the Prayer of Consecration.   

M. harding.  
11. Untruth. Gentle Reader, consider, how falsely M. jewel demeaneth himself. These words, Post finem Orationum, thou findest not at all in all this 32. Diutision. If they be not here, why reproveth he me for using a pretty false translation? This is not a pretty, but a gross, and a shameless kind of falsehood, to charge we with that, which here I say not.   

The Reply.  
It is in the very next Division. Therefore this matter needed nothing so great ado.   

The Apology. part. 2. Ca 13. Divi. 1.  
Origen saith, The Bread, which is sanctified by the Word of God, etc.   

M. harding.  
12. Untruth. alleging Origen, Sir Defender, ye play your accustomed false play, corrupting his sentence, and falsifying his words. He saith, Ille cibus, not, Ille Panis.   

The Reply.  
Yet Origen in the same place calleth it seven times, Panis. Therefore this was but a simple matter, to make such a Tragedy of false play.   

The Apology. part. 2. Ca 1. Divi. 1.  
S. Augustine saith, Although the majesty, and godhead of Christ be everywhere, yet the Body, wherein he rose again, must needs be in one place.   

M. harding.  
13. Untruth. S. Augustine in that Treaty hath not that word, Oportet, but this word, Potest: as the Books have, that be not corrupted by the maintainers of that Heresy.   

The Reply.  
Gratian reporting this place of S. Augustine, useth this word, Oportet. Thus he saith in most plain wise, Corpus, in quo Christus resurrexit, In uno loco esse Oportet. De Consecr. Dist. 2. Prima. Likewise saith Petrus Lombardus reporting the same, in uno loco esse Oportet. Lib. 4. Dist. 10. Sunt item. But before them all S. Peter said, Oportet illum Coelos capere usque ad tempora restitutionis omnium. Actorum. 3. These, I trow, were not the maineteiners of any Heresy.   

The Apology. part. 5. Ca 3. Divi. 11.  
The Old Council of Carthage commanded nothing to be read in the Congregation, but the Canonical Scriptures.   

M. harding.  
14. Untruth. This Book is full of Lies, and falsified places. This Old Council is newly falsified. The words be, Vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine Divinarum Scripturarum. It followeth in the same Decree, Liceat etiam legi Passiones Martyrum, cùm Anniversarij dies eorum celebrantur.   

The Reply.  
This Objection is very true: albeit not greatly to the purpose. For, as the Decree cutteth of all secret, or unlawful Scriptures, so it suffereth nothing else to be read in the Church, but only the Passions, or deaths of Martyrs, and that only upon the Martyr's anniversary: which was, for one Martyr, but only one day in the year.  
Now let M. harding tell us, what, and how much there remained beside, to be read in the Church, saving only the Canonical Scriptures. How be it in the same third Council of Carthage, there be other words found somewhat plainer, & more pregnante, than these. For in the said Council of Carthage, the Council of Hippo was abridged. In which Abbridgement this Decree is read amongst others: Scripturae Canonicae in Ecclesia legendae quae sunt: & praeter quas alia non legantur. These words were abridged, and authorized in the said third Council of Carthage: as it is plain by the Title of the same: Concilij Hipponensis Abbreviationes factae in Concilio Carthaginensi Tertio. In mistaking of which words I must needs confess mine error. For by oversight, I thought, the Council of Carthage had been abridged in the Council of Hippo, as it may appear by my answer in this Book, Fol. 519. Whereas contrariwise, the Council of Hippo was abridged in the Council of Carthage. This in deed of my part was an error. And I thank M. Dorman, that hath geeven me occasion, better to consider the same. notwithstanding, as I said before, the words be plain, Praeter quas (Scripturas) alia non legantur.   

The Apology. Par. 5. Cap. 11. Divi. ●.  
The canonists this date use to say of the Pope, that for so much as he is Lord of all benefices, though he sell bishoprics, Monasteries, Benefices, and Spiritual promotions for money, yet he cannot commit Simony, though he would never so feign.   

M. harding.  
15. Untruth. Whereas it is written in Summa Angelica, In Curia Romana, titulus De Simonia non habet locum, The self same Sum useth this distinction, saying, Verum est in ijs, quae sunt Simoniaca de jure positivo solùm: sed non in ijs, quae sunt Simoniaca de lure Divino. Whereby he meaneth, that concerning Simony, which properly is so called, the Pope is no less subject thereto, than any other man. Thus have you shamefully belied Summa Angelica.   

The Reply.  
Hereby it appeareth, that M. harding understandeth not his own Summa. For by Simonia de jure positivo, is meant the sale of bishoprics, and Benefices, etc. which, as this Summa saith, the Pope may freely sell for money, without empeachement of any manner of Simony. For better proof whereof Theodoricus saith, Papa non potest committere Simoniam. Sic tenent juristae.  
Quia Simonia excusatur per Authoritatem Papae. De Schismate inter Vrban. & Clemen. lib. 2. cap. 32. An other saith: Papa non committit Simoniam recipiendo pecuni●m pro collatione Beneficiorum 〈◊〉 shamefully we bely Summa ●●gelica.   

16. Untruth.  
In the fourth part. 7. chapter, and. 4. Division of this Book, touching that most vile, and shameful abusing of Franciscus Dandalus Gentleman of Venice, that was driven to wallow under the Pope's table in a chain like a Dog, reported, as M. harding saith, by Sabellicus in the first Book of his second Decade: I have answered, as than I thought, according to truth, that Sabellicus wrote no Decades, but only Enneades: as it might appear by his works printed either at Basile by Heruagius, or otherwhere by any other. Sithence I understand, that there is now extant an other Book of Sabellicus, by the name of Decades, set forth of late at Basile by Coelius Secundus Curio, An. 1560. Understand thou therefore, good Reader, that herein I followed such Books of Sabellicus, as had been long abroad, and were well acquainted among the learned. But that there should any other new Book of Sabellicus be printed afterward, specially so long after the Authors death, I could not prophesy.   
These, and such other, good Christian Reader, be our Untruths, so many in number, and of such weight, that M. harding thinketh himself well able easily with the same to load a Cart. 
Confu. fol 175. a.  To all these so many, and so many, so horrible, and so blasphemous Lies, God's Holy name be blessed, we may truly say with S. Paul, 
2. Cor. 6.  Tanquam seductores: & ecce veraces: We are called deceivers: and yet we say the Truth.  
How be it, I do not so warrant every parcel of any my writings, as though there were nothing therein contained, but might safely be justified in all respects, and against all quarrels. Such reverence, by S. Augustine's judgement, we ought to give only to the Word of God. Nomans Learning or memory was ever infinite. But of all others, I acknowledge mine to be the weakest.  
If I have at any time mistaken either author for author, or Name for Name, or Chapter for Chapter, or Book for Book: as whereas in the allegation of Pope Leo, in steed of these words, Individuam unitatem, I wrote, Individuam Trinitatem: or, whereas in steed of these words, Paulinus ad Romanianum, I wrote, Paulinus ad. Augustinum, the said Epistle of Paulinus being mingled with a whole Book of the Epistles of S. Augustine: Or, if upon any other like 〈◊〉, I have alleged either Liberius for Athanasius, or the Arians for the Euty 〈◊〉, or any one Father, or doctor, for an other, such errors, being bold of malice, were never hitherto accounted damnable. The best Learned have oftentimes fallen into them.  
For prouse whereof, it were easy to say, that Cicero, notwithstanding otherwise a great Learned man, alleged Ajax in steed of Hector, Agamemnon in steed of Ulysses, Eupolis in steed of Aristophanes: That Aristotle alleged Calypso in steed of Circe: That Gratian allegeth Aniceus for Anicetus, Ambrose for Augustinus, Calixtus for Anacletus, Greek for Latin, New for Old: That Hippolytus allegeth the Apocalyps of S. john in steed of Daniel: That S. Chrysostom nameth Abacuk for Sophonias, and Agar for Sara. If thou be desirous to see these several errors further proved, it may please thee to see mine Answer to this s, Fol. 362.  
That in the alleging of Liberatus I least out this word, Quodammodò, it was only an error. For why I should of purpose do it, there was no cause: specially that word bearing in that place no greater weight. But M. harding alleging these words of S. 
Augu. in Psal. 33  Augustine, Christus quodammodò ferebatur in manibus suis, 
M. Hard. in his Answer to the Challenge. Fol. ●08. b.  not of error, but, as it may be thought, of set purpose, left out, Quodammodò, as knowing, that in that one word rested the meaning of the whole.  
Briefly, what so ever other like error shallbe found in any my writings, I will discharge both my Clerk, and the Compositoure, & the Printer of the same, & take the whole upon me self. I speak not this for that I think, my Book can be printed without error: for that, in such a number & variety of allegations, were scarcely possible. But if any error, what so ever, shall escape, as I doubt not but there will many, I protest before him, that seeth the heart, it walbe wholly against my wil  
And yet may not these men so charge others, as if they themselves only were privileged, and exempted from all such dangers. M. harding may remember, that he himself in steed of the Prophet Osee, 
Confut. 46. a.  hath alleged us the Noble josua: and, 
Confuta. 312. b.  that by an other like oversight, he hath alleged the Eighth Book of Socrates Scholasticus, whereas Socrates never wrote but Seven: As likewise also M. Dorman allegeth the Seventh Book of the Story of Theodoretus, 
Dorman, Fol. 22.  whereas Theodoretus himself never wrote but Five. And again, he frayeth all Christian Princes with the horrible Examples of the two Kings, as he saith, 
Dorman, Fol. 24.  Ozias, and Oza. Yet he might easily have learned, that Oza was a poor Private man, and never known to be a King. notwithstanding, in one of his late litlewoorthe Pamflettes, confessing his oversight herein, he stumbleth into an other error, 
Dorman, in his Request. Fol. 13.  as fowl, as the first, and bewrayeth his ignorance more than before. For now he telleth us, he hath better remembered himself, that the said Oza was not a King, but only a Prophet. And yet yewis, a child could have told him, that the same Oza was neither King, nor Prophet, but only a Levite. Let him look better on his books, and he shall find it.  
How be it, I would not, that either M. harding, or M. Dorman should think, that therefore they are here charged with ignorance. Errors will creep between their fingers, be they never so watchful. In the heat, and drift of writing, when the mind is wholly occupied, and fully bent to the substance of the cause, it is an easy matter, by some confusion, one way, or other, to disorder a word, or to displace a number, as to write either 9 for 6. or, 24. for 42. or some other like: which error, though it be light in doing, yet in the reckoning oftentimes is very great. To leave other Examples, M. harding himself in his Confutation of the Apology, 
Confut. 47. a. rejoined. Fol. 287. a.  in steed of the 22. of Luke, hath printed the 2. of Luke. Likewise in his Rejoinder, 
rejoined. Fol. 287. a.  in steed of these words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, he hath printed, and sent us quite the contrary, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. In one Book of the New Testament set out at Colaine, in steed of these words, 
1. Corin. 6.  Neque Scortatores Regnum Dei possidebunt, ye shall find it by error printed thus, Neque Sacerdotes Regnum Dei possidebunt. To be short, M. harding in this self same Book, in steed of these words, 
Confut. 332. a.  Lulled a sleep, by error hath printed, Lulled a sheep. If all such childish advantages should be taken, then could no writer escape uncontrolled.  
Thus, good Christian Reader, by the short View of these few Untruths, for so it pleaseth these men to call them, thou mayst the better weigh the value and substance●● of the 〈◊〉.    

Tedious Repetitions.  
M. hardings often rehearsal, and doubling of one thing hath forced me sommetime to do the like. Which thing, good Reader, if unto thee it shall seem over wearisome, I pray thee to consider the occasion thereof. My meaning was only to do thee good.    

To the Christian Reader.  
IT pitieth me in thy behalf, good Christian Reader, to see they conscience thus assaulted this day with so contrary Doctrines of Religion: and specially if thou have a zeal to follow, and séeste not, what: and wouldst feign please Eod, and knowest not, how: nor findest thee self sufficiently armed with God's Holy Spirit: nor able either to discern thy meat from poison, or to unwind thee self out of the snares. 
2 Corin. 11.  For Satan transformeth himself into an Angel of Light: The wicked is more watchful, and vehement, than the Godly: and Falsehood is oftentimes painted, and vewtified, and shineth more glorious than the Truth.  
These be the things, 
2. Tim. 2. Matthae. 24. 2. Tim. 2. johan. 10. Roman. 8.  that, as S. Paul saith, work the subversion of the Hearers: and by mean whereof, as Christ saith, if it were possible, the very Bsecte of God should be deceived. How be it, God knoweth his own: and no Power can puss them out of his hand. God is able to work comfort out of confusion, and to force his light to shine out of darkness. All things work unto good unto them, that be in Christ jesus. Be Falsehood never so freashely coloured, yet in the end the Truth will conquer.  
notwithstanding, God in these days hath so amazed the Adversaries of his Gospel, and hath caused them so openly, and so grossly to lay abroad their follies, to the sight, and face of all the world, that noman now, be he never so ignorant, can think, he may justly be excused. They deal not now so subtly, as other Heretics in old times were wont to do: they hide not the loathsomeness of their errors: they cloak not themselves in Shéepeskinnes: they dissemble nothing: they excuse nothing: but, without either shame of man, or fear of God, they rake up those things, that before were buried, that themselves had forsaken, the wise had abhorred, the world had loathed. It had been more policy for them, to have yielded in somewhat, and to have stayed in the rest. So there might have appeared some plainenesie in their dealings.  
But this is God's just judgement, that they, that wilfully withstand the Truth, 
isaiah. 30.  should be geeven over to maintain Lies, as being the Children of Untruth, Children, that will not hear the Law of God.  
For trial whereof, I beseech thee, good Reader, advisedly to peruse these few notes, truly taken out of M. hardings late Confutation. judge thereof, as thou shalt see cause. Let no affection, or fantasy cause things to seem otherwise, than they be.  
The two principal Grounds of this whole Book are these: 
M. Harding. fol. 334. b.  First, That the Pope, although he may err by personal error, in his own Private judgement, as a man, and as a particular Doctor in his own opinion: yet as he is Pope, as he is the Successor of Peter, as he is the Vicar of Christ in Earth, and as he is the Shepherd of the Universal Church, in Public Judgement, in deliberation, and Definitive Sentence, he never erreth, nor never erred, nor never can err: As if he would say, The Pope walking in his gallery is one man: and fitting in Consistory, or in judgement, is an other: Which thing to hold, Alphonsus de Castro saith, 
Alphons. lib. 1. Cap. 4.  it is mere folly. Yet is this M. hardings chiefest, or rather, as I might in manner say, his only ground.  
The second is this, 
Confu. Fol. 16. b. Fol. 261. b.  The Church of Rome is the whole, and only Catholic Church of God: and, who so ever is not obedient unto the same, must be judged an ●●leretique. These two grounds being once well, and surely laid, he may build at pleasure, what him listeth.  
As for the Pope, the better to countenance his estate, he saith, that Peter received thee, I beseech thee to consider, with what indifferent judgement M. Harding would have thee to pass between us.  
first he saith, What should we seek for Truth? 
rejoined. In 〈◊〉 Preface to 〈◊〉 Reader. * iij * iiij a. * iiij b. ** ij. a.  Let us only behold the custom of the Church. Again, What Arguments, what Assegations, what show of disprove so ever he bring against these things, we ought to make small account thereof. Again, I would bless me self from him, as from the Minister of Satan, and as from the Disciple of antichrist, and as from God's open, and professed enemy. Again, M. jewels Reply, and other like Hereticol Books, are unlawful to be read, by order of the Church, without special licence: and are utterly forbidden to be read, or kept, under pain of Excommunication. And again, 
rejoined. In 〈◊〉 Preface to 〈◊〉 jewel. 〈◊〉.  As for the Reply, none other way will serve, but to throw all into the fire.  
Of the other side, touching the Word of God, with most terrible words he frayeth thee from it, and biddeth thee to consider of other things, and to behold, I know not, 
Confu●. 212 〈◊〉 rejoined. in 〈◊〉 Preface to 〈◊〉 Reader.  what. Ye prostitute the Scriptures, he saith, as Bawds do their harlots, to the ungodly, Unlearned, Rascal people: Again, Prentices, Light persons, and the riff-raff of the people: And again, The Unlearned people were kept from the Reading of the Scriptures by the special providence of God, that precious stones should not be thrown before Swine. 
M Har. in his Answer, Artic. 15. Divi. 7.  In such regard these men have, as well the Holy Scriptures, as also the People of God. The scriptures they resemble to common harlots, and the vilest creatures of the stews: The people of God they call, ungodly, Rascals, Riff-raff, and Filthy Swine.  
Thus he suffereth thee not to read, either my poor Book, whereof thou shouldest judge: or the Holy Word of God, whereby thou mightest he able to judge: but only biddeth thee to follow him, and to say, as he saith: and all is safe. Thus, first he blindeth thine eyes, and then willeth thee to look about, and to condemn the thing, 
Hierony. in Esaiam, lib. 9 ca 30.  thou never knewest. So saith S. Jerome, Isti tantam sibi assumunt Authoritatem, ut sive dextra doceant, sive sinistra, id est, sive bona, sive mala, nolint Discipulos ratione discutere, sed se praecessores sequi: These men take so much upon themselves, that, whether they teach with the Right hand, or with the Left, that is to say, whether they teach good things, or bad, they will not have their Hearers, or Learners, to inquire causes, wherefore they should do this, or that: but only to follow them, being their Leaders.  
But beware, I beseech, thee, good Christian Reader. A simple eye is soon beguiled. It is very course Wool, that will take no colour. It is a desperate cause, that with words, and eloquence may not be smoothed. Be not deceived. Remember, of what matters, and with what Adversaries thou haste to deal. With feace, and reverence be careful of thine own Salvation. Lay down all affection, and favour of parties. judge justly of that shallbe alleged. unless thou know, thou canst not judge: unless thou hear both sides, thou canst not know. If thou like aught, know, why thou likeste it. A wise man in each thing will search the cause. He, that cannot judge gold by sound, or insight, yet may try it by the poise. If thou canst not weigh these matters, for want of Learning, yet, so sensible, and so gross they are, thou mayst feel them with thy fingers. Thou mayst soon find a difference bitwéene Gold, and Brass: between jacob, and Esau: between a Face, and a Visard: between a fuile Body, and an empty Shadow.  
Say not, Thou art settled in thy Belief, before thou know it. Vain Faith, is no Faith. 
August De Tempore. Sermon 145. August. in quae●ion. Veter. Testamen quaest. 43.  S. Augustine's counsel is good: Beleeu: no more of Christ, than Christ hath willed thee to believe: Nemo de Christo credat, nisi, quod de se credi voluit Christus. Likewise he saith, Fides stulta non prodest, sed obest: Fond Faith is hurtful, and doth no good. S. Hilary saith, Non minus est, Deum fingere, quàm negare: 
Hilar. in Psal. 1.  To devise fancies of God, it is as horrible, as to say, There is no God.  
The ancient Father Tertullian, speaking of the Enemies of the Cross of Christ, that disdeigned to submit their wills to the will of God, saith thus: Amant ignorare, 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  cùm alij gaudeant cognovisse. Malunt nescire, quod iam oderunt. Adeo ' quod nesciunt, praeiudicant id esse, quod, si scirent, odisse non possent: They desire to be ignorant, whereas other folks desire to know. They would not know the Truth, because they hate it. (What so ever it be) they imagine it to be the same thing, that they hate. But if they knew it in deed, they could not hate it. Let Reason lead thee: let Authority move thee: let Truth enforce thee. The Wiseman saith, 
Eccles. 2.  Who so feareth the Lord, will not be wilful against his Word. God of his mercy confound all Errors: give the Victory to his Truth: and Glory to his Holy name, Amen.  
From London. 27. Octobris, 1567.   

❧ AN ANSWER TO A Certain Book lately set forth by M. harding, and entitled, A Confutation of the Apology of the Church of England.  

The Title of the Apology.  
AN Apology, or answer in defence of the Church of England, with a brief, and plain declaration of the true Religion professed, and used in the same.  

The Confutation by M. harding.  
Whereas these defenders take upon them the name of the Church of England, 
The de●enders likened to Esopes' Ass.  setting forth thereby a face of authority, they do much like the Ass that Esope telleth of, which, to make the beasts afraid, had put on him a Lion's skin, and therewith jetted abroad terribly. For as the Lion's skin was but lapped about him, 
The wont of all Herctiques. Heretics likened to Apes. The name and reputation of the Church challenged by Heretics.  and grew not to his body: so they being in deed no lively members nor part of the Church, cover themselves under the title and name of the Church, the rather to beguile the simple. And verily herein they follow the wont of all Heretics. For never was there any sect of Heretics hitherto, which hath not claimed to be accounted and called the Church. For which cause of certain ancient Fathers they have been likened to Apes, whose property is, though they be Apes, yet to counterfeit men, and to court to seem men. Novatianus, at saith S. Cyprian, after the manner of Apes, would challenge to himself the authority of the Catholic Church. And where as himself was not in the Church, but contrariwise a rebel against the Church, 
In epist, ad Iubainum de Haereticis baptizandis.  took upon him to affirm, that all other were Heretics, and presumed toupholde, the Church was on his side. Irenaeus and Tertullian, who were before him, write, that Heretics made so much ado to persuade, 
De prescript. haeret.  that the Church was among themselves only, that they feared not to call the right believing and Catholic Church, Heretical and Schismatical. S. Hilary declaring how patiently he demeaned himself towards the Arians his enemies, 
Contra Constantium.  by whom he was banished, writeth, that in five years space, whiles he lived in banishment, he never spoke nor wrote evil word against them, 
August. contra epist. Parmen. lib. 2. cap. 1.  which falsely said themselves to be the Church of Christ, and were the synagogue of Antichrist. The Donatisles, against whom S. Augustine wrote much, said, that the Christianity was quite lost and gone out of so many nations that be in the world, and remained only in afric, and that the Church was only there. 
Bernard. in cant. Sermo. 66.  In S. Bernardes' time also the Heretics who would be called apostolics, as they of our time call themselves Gospelers, said that they were the Church.  
But what mean all Heretics (may we judge) by coveting so much to be seen that which they are not? 
Apostolici. What mean Heretics by challenging unto them the name and estimation of the Church.  Forsooth they mean none other thing, than their Father the Devil meaneth, when he goeth about to beguile man. For than what doth he? useth he not this policy, to change his owggly hew, and put himself in goodly shape of an Angel of light? For he is not unwitting, that if he showed himself in his own form, such as he is, that every one would fly from him, and none lightly would be deceived by him. Heretics do the like. Although they hate the Church never so deadly, yet to have the more opportunity to hurt it, 
2. Cor. 11.  pretend themselves to be of the Church. 
The estimation and authority of the Church. Lucae. 10. Matth. 18. 1. Tim. 3. Ephes. 1. Oseae. 2. Psalm. 131. Gene. ●.  For they be not ignorant, how great the authority of the Church is. Of whose governors Christ said, he that heareth you, heareth me: and he that despiseth you, despiseth me. And again, Tell the Church. They consider in what credit the Church is with all Christian people: how they stay themselves by it, as being the pillar and ground of the truth: how they Love her, even as their common Mother, how they honour it, as the Body and fullness of Christ, as the spouse of Christ through Faith, according to that is written, I will despouse thee to me in faith: As the true Zion, which our Lord hath chosen to be his habitation, and his resting place for ever: As the safe Ark to keep us from drowning in the dangerous Seas of this world; out of which no less then once out of the Ark of Noah, is nosaluation. Again they know the Church must needs be greatly esteemed among all the godly, for the singular promiser Christ hath made to it, that he would be with it all days to the end of the world: That he would pray to his father for the holy Ghost to be given to it, the spirit of truth to remain withit for ever. But as Heretics impugn the law by the words of the law, 
In comment. in epist, ad Tir. cap. 3.  〈◊〉 S. Ambrose saith so to over throw the Church, they presume to take unto them the name of the Church. But what do 〈◊〉 when they are urged and wroonge, when by force of arguments they are straighted, and as it were driven to the wall? when it is plainly proved to their face, which is soon done that they be not in, nor of the Church, specially being of Heresy openly denounced, 
The wont of the Gospelers being excommunicate out of the Church.  and by just Excommunication cut of from the Church? In this case the practice of the Gospelers is, utterly to set the Church, as taught, and with a hot raging spirit to defy it, and to say, that themselves be the Catholic Church, and that the Catholics be the Papistical Church, the Church of Antichrist, the where of 〈◊〉 a deune of thieves, and I can not tell what.   

The Answer by the Bishop of Sarisburie.  
TO answer M. harding to every parcel of his Book, being so long, it would be too tedious. Wherefore leaving many his impertinent speeches, & other unnecessary and waste words, which sundry his friends think, he might better have spared, I will touch only so much thereof, as shall bear some show of substance, & may any way seem worthy to be answered.  
first touching the Church of God, we believe, and confess all that M. harding hath here said, 
1. Timot. 3. Ephes. 1.  or otherwise can be said. It is the Pillar of the Truth, the Body, the Fullness, and Spouse of Christ. All these words are undoubtedly true and certain. And therefore, M. harding, you are the more blamewoorthy, that of the House of God, being so glorious, have made a cave of thieves: & have turned the beauty of Zion into the confusion of Babylon.  
True it is, that Heretics have evermore appareled themselves with the name of the Church: as antichrist also shall procure himself credit under the name of Christ. Thus did your Fathers, M. Harding, long ago. They said then, even as you say now, 
johan. 8. Hierem. 7. Hierem. 18.  We are the Children of Abraham: we are the Euheretours of God's promises: we have the Temple of God, the Temple of God. The Law shall never pass from the Priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Thus coutinuinge wilfully in the open breach of God's commandment, nevertheless they cherished themselves then, as you do now, only with the bare title of the Church: in whose name what so ever credit ye can any wise win, your meaning is, skilfully to convey the same over wholly to the Church of Rome: as if that Church only were the Church of God, 
De Maior. & Obedi. unam Sanctam. Dist. 22. Omnes.  & without that there were no hope of Salvation: And therefore you defend, and hold for truth, that your Church hath authority above God's Word. And Pope Nicolas saith, Who so denieth the Privilege, and Supremacy of the See of Rome, hath renounced the Faith, and is an Heretic. And thus, as Leo saith, 
Leo Epist. 83. Ad Palaestinos.  Ecclesiae nomine armamini, & contra Ecclesiam dimicatis: Ye arm yourselves with the name of the Church, and yet ye fight against the Church. Likewise saith S. Cyprian, 
Cypri. De Simplicitate praela.  Diabolus excogitavit novam fraudem, ut sub ipso nominis Christiani titulo fallat incautos: The Devil hath devised a new kind of policy, under the very title of the name of Christ to deceive the simple.  
Now concerning that hot raging Spirit, wherewith M. harding saith, the Gospelers deste the Church and set it at nought, verily I think it a hard matter for any gospeler, be he never so hot, in such kind of eloquence to match M. harding. Neither yet may he well condemn all such, as in the like cases have been hot, 
Esa●. 1. Matth. 3. Matthae. 23. johan. 8.  & earnest. Esay the Prophet saith, O ye Princes of Sodom, and ye people of Gomorrha: john the Baptist saith to the Scribes, and Phariseis, O ye Serpents, ye generation of Vipers, and Adders: Christ saith unto them, Woe be unto you, ye Scribes, and Phariseis, ye hypocrites: Ye are of your Father the Devil. In these eramples we see, the Spirit of God can sometimes be hot and earnest against the deceivers of the people, and the professed enemies of the Cross of Christ. Neither did either Esay the Prophet, or john the baptist, or Christ defy the Church of God, and set it at nought, as M. harding imagineth of us: but rather by these servant speeches uttered the vehement zeal, and just grief, they had conceived against them, that under the name of the Church abused God's people, and defaced the Church.  
For they are not all Heretics, M. harding, that this day espy your gross, and palpable errors, and mourn to God for reformation. S. Augustine saith, Non debet Ouis pellem suam deponere, 
August. Lib. 2. De Sermon. Dom●. in monte.  qu●d Lupi aliquando se ea contegant: It is no reason, the Sheep should therefore leave of his flies, for that he seeth the Wolf sometime in the same apparel. Likewise, it is no reason, that we should therefore give over the right, and inheritance, we have in the Church of God, for that you by intrusion, and unjust means have entitled yourselves unto the same. 
johan. 5.  It behoveth us rather, to search the Scriptures, as Christ hath advised us, & thereby to assure ourselves of the Church of God. For by this trial only, and by none other, it may be known. 
Ephe. 1.  Therefore S. Paul calleth the Church the Spouse of Christ, for that she ought in all things to give ear to the voice of the Bridegrooms. Likewise he calleth the Church the Pillar of the Truth, 
1. Timo. 3.  for that she stayeth herself only by the Word of God: Without which Word the Church. were it never so beautiful. should be no Church. 
Irenae. Lib. 3. Cap. 11.  The Ancient Father Irenaeus saith, Columna, & firmamentum Ecclesiae est evangelium, & Spritus vitae: The Pillar and buttress of the Church is the Gospel, 
August. De unita. Eccle. Cap. 3.  and the Spirit of life. S. Augustine saith, Sunt certi Libri Dominici, quorum authoritari utrique consentimus: Ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam: ibi discutiamus causam nostram: There be certain Books of our Lord, unto the authority whereof each part agreeth. There let us seek for the Church: thereby set us examine and try our matters. And again, 
August. in eodem Cap.  Nolo humanis documentis, sed Divinis oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari: I will, ye show me the holy Church, not by decrees of men, but by the word of God. 
Chrysostom. In Opere Imperfecto, Homi. 49. Chrysostom. in eadem Homilia.  Likewise saith Chrysostom, Nullo modo cognoscitur, quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi, nisi tantummodo ' per Scripturas: It can no way be known, what is the Church, but only by the Scriptures. And again, Christus mandat, ut volentes firmitatem accipere Verae Fidei, ad nullam rem fugiant, nisi ad Scripturas. Alioqui, si ad alia respexerint, Scandalizabuntur, & peribunt, non intelligentes, quae sit vera Ecclesia. Et per hoc incident in Abominationem Desolationis, quae stat in Locis Sanctis Ecclesiae: Christ commandeth, that who so will have the assurance of True Faith, seek to nothing else, but unto the Scriptures. Otherwise, if they look to any thing else, they shallbe offended, and shall perish, not understanding, 
Daniel. 9 Matth. 24.  which is the True Church. And by mean here of they shall fall into the Abomination of Desolation, which standeth in the Holy Places of the Church.  
By these Ancient learned Fathers it is plain, that the Church of God is known by God-den Word only, & none otherwise. And therefore M. harding, you so carefully flee the same, and condemn it for Heresy, and often burn it, lest thereby the deformities of your Church should be known. 
johan. 3.  For the ill doer fleeth the light.  
Now, where as it so well liketh M. harding to call us all Heretics, and for his pleasure's sake to liken us to Apes, to Asses, and to the Devil, notwithstanding we might safely return the same whole, from whence it came, yet I think it not seemly, nor greatly to purpose to answer all such intemperate humours. salomon's advise is good, 
Proverb. 26.  Answer not folly with like folly. notwithstanding, the poor simple Ass, unto whom we are compared, was able sometime to see the Angel of God, 
Numer. 22.  and to open his mouth, and to speak, and to reprove the lewd attempt of Balaam the false Prophet. What so ever account it pleaseth M. harding to make of us, by the grace of God we are that we are. If we be able to bear Christ with his Cross, it is sufficient.  
But who they be, that have of long time jetted so terribly under the Lion's skin, and only with a painted Visard, or empty name of the Church, have feared all the cattle of the field, it is peerless to speak it: the world now seeth it: it can no longer be dissembled. Even he, that lately bore himself as the Lion of the tribe of juda, & called himself 
a Augustinus Steuchus, de Primatu.  King of Kings, and 
b See the fifth part hereof, the 6. Cap. and. 15. Division.  said, he had power over the Angels of God, and amazed the hearts of the simple with the terror of his Lion's pelte, only for that he sat in Peter's Chair is now revefled and better known, and esteemed as he is worthy: he may now jest up and down with more ease, and less terror. And why so? These poor Asses, whom M. harding so much disdeigneth, have strippeth of his counterfeit skin, that made him so hardy, and have caused him to appear even as he is.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 1.  
It hath been an old complaint, even from the first time of the patriarchs and Prophets, and confirmed by the writings and testimonies of every age, that the Truth wandereth here and there as a stranger in the world, 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  & doth readily find enemies and slanderers amongst those, that know her not. Albeit perchance this may seem unto some a thing hard to be believed, I mean to such as have scant well and narrowly taken heed thereunto, specially seeing all mankind of nature's very motion without a teacher doth covet the Truth of their own accord: and seeing our savour Christ himself, when he was on earth, would be called the Truth, as by a name most fit to express all his divine power. Yet we, which have been exercised in the holy Scriptures, and which have both read & seen, what hath happened to all godly men commonly at all times, what to the Prophets, to the Apostles, to the Holy Martyrs, and what to Christ himself: with what rebukes, revilings, and despites they were continually vexed, whiles they here lived, & that only for the Truths sake: We (I say) do see, that this is not only no new thing, or hard to be believed, but that it is a thing already received, and commonly used from age to age. Nay truly, this might seem much rather a marvel, 
johan. 8.  and beyond all belief, if the Devil, who is the Father of lies, & enemy to all Truth, would now upon a sudden change his nature, and hope, that Truth might otherwise be suppressed, then by belieinge it: Or that he would beginn● to establish his own kingdom by using now any other practices, than the same, which he hath ever used from the beginning. For since any man's remembrance, we can scant find one time, either when Religion did first grow, or when it was settled, or when it did afresh springe up again, wherein Truth & innocency were not by all unworthy means, & most despitefully entreated. Doubtless the Devil well seeth, that so long as truth is in good safety, himself cannot be safe, nor yet maintain his own estate.  
For, letting pass the ancient patriarchs & Prophets, who, as we have said, had no part of their life free from contumelies & slanders: We know, there were certain in times passed, which said and commonly Preached, 
Cornel. Tacitly.  that the old ancient jews (of whom we make no doubt but they were the worshippers of the only & true God) did worship either a Sow, or an Ass in God's steed: and that all the same Religion was nothing else, but sacrilege, and a plain contempt of all godliness. We know also, that the Son of God, our savour jesus Christ, when he taught the Truth, was counted a Sorcerer & an Enchanter, a Samaritane, Beelzebub, a deceiur of the People, a drunkard, & a Glutton. Again, who woteth not, what words were spoken against S. Paul, the most earnest and vehement Preacher, & maintainer of the Truth? Sometime, that he was a seditious and busy man, a raiser of tumults, a causer of rebellion: sometime again, that he was an Heretic: sometime, that he was mad: sometime, that only upon strife and stomach he was both a blasphemer of God's law, and a despiser of the Father's ordinances. Further who knoweth not, how S. Stevin, after he had thoroughly and sincerely embraced the truth, and began frankly & stoutly to preach and set forth the same, as he ought to do, was immediately called to answer for his life, as one that had wickedly uttered disdainful and heinous words against the Law, against Moses, against the Temple, and against God? Or who is ignorant, that in times passed there were some, which reproved the holy Scriptures of falsehood, saying, they contained things both contrary, and quite one against an other: 
Marion, ex Tertul.  and how that the Apostles of Christ did severally disagree betwixt themselves, and that S. Paul did vary from them all? 
Aelius, è Lactans.  And not to make rehearsal of all, for that were an endless labour, 
Euseb. Li. 5. C. 11.  who knoweth not, after what sort our Fathers were railed upon in times passed, 
Tertul. in Apologe.  which first began to acknowledge and profess the name of Christ: how they made private conspiracies, devised secret Counsels against the common wealth, and to that end made early and privy meetings in the dark, killed young Babes, fed themselves with men's flesh, and like savage and brute beasts, did drink their Blood? In conclusion, how that after they had put out the candles, they committed Adultery between themselves, & without regard wrought incest one with an other: that brethren lay with their Sisters, Sons with their Mothers, without any reverence of nature or kin, without shame, without difference: and that they were wicked men without all care of Religion, and without any opinion of God, being the very enemies of mankind, unworthy to be suffered in the world, and unworthy of life?  
All these things were spoken in those days against the people of God, against Christ jesus, against Paul, against Stevin, and against all them, whosoever they were, which at the first beginning embraced the truth of the Gospel, & were contented to be called by the name of Christians: which was then an hateful name among the common people. 
Tertull. in apollo. Cap. 3.  And although the things which they said, were not true, yet the Devil thought it should be sufficient for him, if at the least he could bring it so to pass, as they might be believed for true: and that the Christians might be brought into a common hatred of every body, and have their death and destruction sought of all sorts. Hereupon Kings & Princes being led then by such persuasions, killed all the Prophets of God, letting none escape: Esay with a saw, jeremy with stones, Daniel with Lions, Amos with an iron bar, Paul with the sword, and Christ upon the Cross: and condemned all Christians to imprisonmentes, to torments, to the pikes, to be thrown down headlong from rocks and steep places, 
Suetonius Tranquil. in Nerone.  to be cast to wild beasts, and to be burnt: and made great fires of their quick bodies, for the only purpose to give light by night, & for a very scorn and mocking stock: and did count them no better, than the vilest filth, the offscourings and laughing games of the whole world. Thus (as ye see) have the Authors and professors of the truth ever been entreated.  

M. harding.  
Who would not think, these defenders were true men, that in the beginning of their Apology speak so much of the truth? Yet who knoweth not, that oftentimes evil meaning is hid under good words? Who hath not heard, that filthy queans in time and place use the honest talk of chaste matrons? The thief commendeth just dealings, and many times shewithe a stomach against false harlots, 
1. Corinth. 11.  noman more. Among all none pretend truth in words so much as Heretics. I fear me, saith S. Paul, lest, as the Serpent beguiled Eve by his subtlety, so your wits be corrupted, and fallen away from that plainness. Which is in Christ. The Apostle feared because of the crafty jews: who the rather to deceive, mingled scriptures with their own traditions, and truth with false head. So bringeth the Heretic his hearer to error in faith by colour and pretence of truth.  
They are much like to the Manicheis, 
De Vtilita. Credendi ad Honoratum. Lib. 1. Ca 1. Confess. li. 5. ca 6. Matth. 7.  who promised their hearers to discuss, and set forth the truth most evidently unto them, and to deliver them from all manner of errors. By which fair promises S. Augustine was alured to be a diligent scholar of theirs for the space of nine years.  
Christ gave us a lesson how to discern them. By their fruits ye shall know them, saith he. And now to you Sirs. Even in the beginning, and as I may say, in the forehead of your Apology, whiles I examine it diligently, I find two foul faults: the one in your Rhetoric, the other in your Logic. By which two faults both the uns kil of your secretary, and the weakness of your matter may be espied, as the Ass, I spoke of right now, was by his two ears staring out under the Lion's skin. Your divinity is nothing else in gross, but a lump of lies, errors and Heresies.  
First touching your Rhetoric, amongst many faulty proemes, one of the worst is that, which is such, as the adversary may use: which by them is called Exordium commune, that is to wit, such a beginning, as will serve the defendant, no less than the Plaintiff, or contrariwise. Of that sort is the beginning of your Apology. For declaring at large, that truth hath ever been persecuted, what saith it therein (the faults amended) that we may not say the same? That shipmaster is accounted very bad, who at the setting out of the haven driveth the Ship on the rocks.  
alleging Tertullian to help your cause, ye injury the Doctor by altering his words. Ye were not wise, by falsifying the first sentence, so much to impair your credit. Tertullian saith not, that truth readily findeth enemies and slanderers amongst those, that know her not: but that truth soon findeth enemies inter extraneos, amongst aliens and strangers. Now the Christian Catholics, whom ye call Papists, be not in respect of the truth aliens, and strangers. For yourselves in sundry places of your Book reprove them for resisting the truth which they know.  
You have given Tertullian a new livery with your own badge, and have made exchange of Extraneos with Ignotos. Tertullian meant by aliens no other than Infidels, and paynims: among whom Christian people then lived, and were daily persecuted. But after the Gospel had been sounded abroad by the Apostles, and their successors through all the earth, after that the Emperors themselves, and all the people every where had received the faith, than was the truth no more a wanderer, strangers or Pilgrim in the earth.   

The Bishop of Sarisburie.  
touching this comparison of whores, and thieves, and other like M. hardings ungentle speeches, as I have before protested, I will say nothing. He is very dumb, and can speak but little, that cannot speak it.  
It is true, M. harding, that you say: Most Liars oftentimes pretend most Truth: as, if there were none other example, may soon appear by the whole tenor and substance of your Books. The Devil himself, the better to found his Lies, beareth himself oftentimes as the Angel of Truth.  
But the example, 
2. Corinth. 11  that ye bring of the jews, who, as you say, the rather to deceive, mingled Scripture with their own Traditions, and Truth with Falsehood, maketh most plainly against yourself. For you know, that this is the general compiainte of all the Godly this day throughout the whole Church of God, 
Matth. 15. Hierem. 2.  that you have mingled your Lead with the lords Gold, and have filled the lords Harvest full of your Darnel: that you have broken Gods manifest commandments, to uphold, & maintain your own Traditions: That you have damned up the springs of the Water of Life, 
Hierem. 23.  & have broken up puddles of your own, 
2. Corinth. 11.  such as be able to hold no water: That for your dreams sake you have caused the people to forgeat the name of God, & have led them from that simplicity, that is in Christ jesus. This is the mingling of Traditions with the Scriptures of God. I marvel, ye could so freely utter so much, and so directly against yourself.  
As for the example of the Manicheis, it was utterly impertinent, and from the purpose. Yet (Good Reader) that thou mayst understand, what manner of Heretics these Manicheis were, and what errors they defended, first thy forebade lawful marriage, and allowed fornication, as M. hardings 
a See what is answered in the fourth pair hereof, Ca 1. Di. 1.  Catholics do now. So saith S. Augustine of them, 
b In quaest. in Nowm Testam. Quae. 72.  Nuptiarum aditus intercludunt: & promiscu● convenire hortantur. 
c Leo Serm. 4. de Quadragesima.  Secondly they received, & ministered the Holy Mysteries under one kind, contrary to the general order of the Catholic Church. And so doth M. Harding now. 
d Aug. Epist. 19  Thirdly they yielded more credit to their own devices, then to God's Holy word. 
e August. con. Faustum. Lib. 32. Cap. 19  And where as the Scriptures were plain against them, they said, even as 
f M. harding Fol. 220. b.  M. harding saith, the Scriptures were falsified, and full of errors. 
g Augu. de Morib. Mantchae. Lib. 2. Cap. 15. Peregrinas & exquisitas f●uges multis ferculis variatas.  Fourthly they abstained from flesh: and yet in their fast, they had & used all manner delicate and strange fruits, with sundry sorts of Spices in great abundance: 
h Aug. De Morib. Manichae. Lib. 2. Cap. 13.  They abstained from Wine, & yet used other liquors more dainty, and precious, than any Wine, and thereof drank while their bellies would hold. S. Augustine's words thereof be these, Distenti, et crepantes, I leave the rest. Now judge thou, gentle Reader, whether party seemeth best to resemble the Manichets.  
But whereas he thus upbraideth us, By their fruits ye shall know them. Verily whiles the Bishop of Rome even in the City of Rome maintaineth his houses of ribaldry and open Stews, and M. harding is ready, & able by his eloquence and Divinity to defend the same, they have no just cause, greatly to boast themselves of their fruits. How be it, it may be thought, Christ gave us this lesson, not thereby to try the true Doctrine from the false, but a true professor from an Hypocrite. Otherwise our lives must be tried by the Gospel, not the Gospel by our lives.  
Now let us examine that Horrible Heresy, that M. harding hath espied in the Rules of Rhetoric, by which, saith he, the Secretaries unskill is betrayed, even in the forehead of our Book. This entry, saith M. harding, touching the complaint of Truth, is so indifferent and common to both the parties, that either may use it, as well as other. Which kind of beginning, saith he, is called Exordium commune, and by the learned in Rhetoric is misliked as faulty. First of all, M. harding, this seemeth to me a strange kind of beginning, in so deep a disputation of Divinity, to make your first quarrel unto Rhetoric. belike for lack of better Entry, ye thought it good to rush in as you might. In deed either of us may seem to stand in defence of Truth. I deny it not. For as we have the substance, and Truth itself, so are you content to claim the name. And so far forth Truth is common to us both. 
Origen. contra Celsum, Li. 3. & Lib. 4.  So the wicked Heathens Celsus, & Antiphon, notwithstanding they published their Books against the Truth, yet they entitled the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the Book of Truth. S. Jerome saith, Mendacium semper imitatur Veritatem. Falsehood evermore beareth a show of Truth. In this sort Truth is common to either party. 
Origen in Matthae. Tract. 27.  Origen saith, Veritas Christus: simulata Veritas Antichristus. Christ is the Truth itself: Antichrist is the Truth countrefeite. All this notwithstanding, Christ refused not to use the same kind of entry, that M. harding so much mistiketh: 
johan. 8. Roman. 1.  but said unto the Phariseis, Ye seek to minder me, a man that have told you the Truth. And S. Paul to the Romans saith, They have turned the Truth of God into falsehood. The like might I say of Tertullian, Cyprian, and other Fathers. Yet, I trow, M. harding will not therefore reprove either Christ, or Paul, or Tertullian, or Cyprian: nor say, they used such a Beginning, as their adversaries might have used as well as they, and had forgotten their Rules of Rhetoric.  
Loath I am so long to stand in so light a matter. But I marvel much, that M. Harding being so great an Artificer in so small cases, had no better eye to his own Entry. For if in writing the Defence of Truth, it be a fault in Rhetoric to begin with the ill entreating, & complaint of Truth, what then may we think it to be in the Defence of manifest & known error, to begin, as M. harding doth, with Whores, with thieves, with Apes, with Asses, with Children of the Devil, and with many other like unseemly scoffs, and scorns? What Rhetoric, what Eloquence, what Art, what Skill is this? What Orator ever used it? what Rhetorician, what Sophiste, Greek, or Latin ever taught it? Verily this was sometime accounted an old rule in Rhetoric, which it seemeth M. harding had quite forgotten: 
Cic. De Orator. Lib. 2.  Scurrilis Oratori dicacitas magnoperé fugienda est. This Secretary's Beginning, by M. hardings own confession is such, as either party indifferently might well have used. But M. hardings Beginning is such, as neither party with any modesty might have used.  
M. harding also might have remembered, that the skilful in Rhetoric, as they mislike Exordium Commune, 
Cicer. Lib. 1. De Inuentione: Argumentum Commune vitiosum est.  so they also mislike Commune Argumentum, that is, a Reason or proof so Common, that it may indifferently serve both parties. Which kind of proofs if M. harding would have weeded out of his Books, he should have left very little to trouble the Printer.  
Where he saith in gross, that our Apology is nothing else, but a lump of Lies: the Truth thereof, I trust, shall appear by this Treaty. In the mean season, good Christian Reader, it may please thee to consider, that M. hardings mouth is no just measure in this behalf. For some men think, it will oftentimes utter untruth without measure. But he saith, we have falsified tertullian's meaning, placing this word Ignotos, in steed of Extraneos, and so at our pleasure making exchange of words, and giving the old Father a new Livery, and thereby empairinge our whole credit. A great outcry in so small a matter. This great exchange of words is nothing so heinous as it is pretended. For both Ignotus is Extraneus, and Extraneus also in tertullian's meaning is Ignotus. And M. harding well knoweth, that Tertullian speaketh namely, and only of such Aliens and Strangers, as knew not the Truth of God. Whether of these two words it shall like him to leave us, the sense is all one: it forceth nothing. If he will needs refuse this word, Ignotus, so that he receive the other word, Extraneus, and grant, that he and his fellows be Strangers to God's Truth, it shallbe sufficient.  
How be it he addeth farther, that they of his side are now no Strangers, but know God, as his dear friends, and kinsfolk. Even so said the Phariseis of themselves, 
johan. 9  Nunquid & nos Coeci sumus? What be we blind too? But Christ answered them, If ye were blind, than had ye no sin. Now ye say, that ye see: therefore your sin remaineth still. 
johan. 9 Matthae. 8.  And again, I am come to judgement into the world, that they that see, may be made blind. And again, The Children of the kingdom shallbe thrown forth into utter darkness.  
Yet further M. harding saith, After that the Gospel had been sounded abroad by the Apostles, and their Successors, than was the Truth no more a Stranger, or a Pilgrim in Earth. Whereby he would closely conclude, that his Church of Rome can never err. But this is too vain a Paradise. 
Daniel. 8. Chrysost. in opere Imperfecto, Homi. 49. August. De C●uita. Dei, Li. 18. Cap. 51. De Civit. Li. 19 Cap. 27.  For Daniel speaking of the later days saith, Veritus prosternetur in ●erra, The Truth shall be overthrown in the Earth. Chrysostom saith, Abornihatio Desolationis stabit in Sanctis Locis Ecclesiae, The Abomination of desolation shall stand in the Holy places of the Church. S. Augustine saith, Vsque ad huius s●eculi finem, inter persecutiones mundi, & consolationes Dei peregtinando procurrit Ecclesia: Until the worlds end, the Church goeth forward, as it were in a Pilgrimage, between the persecutions of the world, and the comforts of God. And again, Tota Civitas Dei peregrinatur in terris: The whole City of God (which is the Church) is a Stranger, and a Pilgrim in the Earth. Verily as long as Satan the Prince of darkness is Prince of this world, so long the Truth of God passeth in this world as a Stranger: and being among Strangers, as Tertullian saith, easily findeth enemies, & is it entreated. 
Tertullian in Apologetico.  He saith further, Caeterum unum hoc gestit, ne ignorata damnetur: This only thing Truth desireth, that noman condemn her, before he know her.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 1.  
Wherefore we ought to bear it the more quietly, which have taken upon us to profess the Gospel of Christ, if we for the same cause be handled after the same sort: and if we, as our Forefathers were long ago, be likewise at this day tormented and baited with railings, with spiteful dealings, and with lies: and that for no desert of our own, but only because we teach & acknowledge the Truth.  

M. harding.  
O blessed followers of the patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, and Christ himself, that suffer so much persecution in your innocency; having deserved nothing at all, and only because ye acknowledge, and teach the Truth. But Sirs, by your leave, how followeth this (Wherefore) of your former common place so largely treated? This is your fowl fault, which you make in your Logic. How prove ye this argument: The Truth is persecuted, and the professors of the Truth have ever been evil treated: wherefore we ought to bear it quietly being likewise handled for the same cause etc. If you make this argument, which ye seem privily to make, leaving out the Minor, The professors of the Truth be persecuted for the Truths sake: we be professors of the Truth: Therefore we suffer persecution for the Truths sake: If ye say thus, we embarre you from your Conclusion by denying your Minor, which ye can never prove.  
And if ye reason thus, which way also ye seem to use: The professors of the Truth suffer persecution: We suffer persecution: Ergo, we are professors of the Truth: We grant your Minor is true: but your argument is nought. So might all Heretics say, and by that argument prove themselves right believers. Wherefore until ye prove, that ye succeed the patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, and Christ himself in professing the Truth, boast not, as ye do, of your Forefathers. For not they whom ye name in your poem, but Hus, Wiklese, Peter Bruse, Berengarius, Waldenses, Albingenses, Donatists, Aë●ians, Manichees, and such the like Heretics, justly condemned of the Church, were your Forefathers.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. harding pretendeth Logic, and endeth in Sophistry. The argument, we make, wherewith he playeth so pleasantly, is founded upon these words of Christ: 
Matth. 10. johan. 15.  The Scholare is not above his Master, nor the Servant above his Lord: If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you. All these things shall they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know neither my Father, nor me. The Minor is this, we succeed the Apostles, and Martyrs, and are the professors of the Truth. Which Minor, by M. hardings judgement, we can never prove. But Gods holy name be blessed for ever: The greatest part, of Christendom this day seeth, this Minor is true, and that both we are the professors of Gods known Truth, and you the professors of manifest salsehed. touching the Donatists, and Manichees, and all other like condemned Heretics, and Heresies, we utterly abhor them, even as the gates of Hel. As for john Wicklese, john Husse, Valdo, and the rest, for aught we know, &, I believe, setting malice aside, for ought you know, they were godly men. 
Alphonsus De Haeresibus.  Their greatest Heresy was this, that they complained of the dissolute, and vicious lives of the clergy, of worshipping of Images, offeined Miracles, of the tyrannical pride of the Pope, of Monks, friars, Partans, Pilgrimages, 
Bartholomae. Abramus in Concil. Ferrarien.  and Purgatory, and other like deceivinge, and mocking of the people, and that they wished a reformation of the Church. We succeed not them, nor bear their names. We succeed him, whose word we profess: whose word, M. harding, they of your side have so often condemned, and under a colour of false Translation have burnt for Heresy.  
Hereof we form our argument in this sort: Christ the Son of God was persecuted, & carried as a Lawye unto the Slauterhouse for speaking the Truth: Therefore it behoveth us for the same cause suffering the like, to take it with patieuce. So saith S. Peter, 
1. Peter. 2.  Christ died for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow his steps. If we suffer patiently for doing well, this thing is thanks worthy before God. So the holy Father and Martyr Ignatius comforted himself, when he was in the mids of his torments: 
Euseb. Lib. 3. Cap. 36. Tertull. De Fuga in persecutione. Matth. 5.  iam incipio esse Discipulus Christi Now begin I to be Christ's. Disciple. So Tertullian, Quid debeo, nisi sanguinem, quem pro me fudit Filius Dei? What thing own I else, but the Blood, which the Son of God hath shed for me? The like comfort in like cases Christ giveth to his Disciples, Rejoice ye, (saith he) and he glad, for your reward is great in Heaven. For thus have they persecuted the Prophets, that were before you.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 2.  
They cry out upon us at this present everywhere, that we are all Heretics, and have forsaken the Faith, & have with new persuasions, & wicked learning utterly dissolved the concord of the Church.  

M. harding.  
If ye have forsaken the Faith, 
Faith in Britain.  ye were baptized in, if ye be gone from the faith, which S. Eleutherius Pope and Martyr the first Apostle of Britain preached in this land, 
Untruth.  by Damianus and Fugatius within little more than one hundred years after Christ's death, 
Damianus and Fugatius first Apostles of the Britons. Augustinus and Melitus of the English.  if ye refuse the Faith which Gregory the Great that holy Pope, caused to be Preached to our Ancestors the English nation by Augustinus, Melitus, and other holy Priests, and have thereby dissolved the unity of the Catholic Church, and leave not to maintain the doctrine, whereby the same unity is dissolved: all this presupposed. We see not but that this cry made upon you is true: For then are ye Heretics in deed.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
As well this report of Eleutherius, as also the other noted in the margin of Augustine, that the one was the first Apostle of the britains, the other of the English, are both untrue. For it is certain, that the Church of Britanny, now called England, received not first the faith from Rome. Lucius the King of this Country had received the Gospel of Christ, and was baptized well-near one hundred and fifty years before the Emperor Constantine: and the same Constantine the first Christened Emperor was borne in this Island, And notwithstanding Eleutherius the Bishop of Rome, at the kings special request, sent hither Fugatius, and Damianus, to inform the bishops and Cleregie, and to bring things to better order, 
Gildas. Polydor●●. Theodoret. De Curandis Graecorum affectibus. Niceph. li. 2. c. 4. Galfrid. Lib. 8. Cap. 4.  yet undoubtedly the Church & Faith of Christ had been planted here a long while before they came, either by joseph of Arimathaea: either (as Theodoretus writeth) by S. Paul the Apostle passing this way into Spain: or (as Nicephorus saith) by Simon Zel●tes: or by the Greeks: or by some others.  
As for our Augustine of England, for it was not S. Augustine the learned Doctor, neither was he so godly a man, as M. harding maketh him: for as Galfridus writeth of him, he was cruel, disoaineful, proud, and arrogant, and no way meet to be called an Apostle. Neither was he the first planter of the Faith in England. For the Faith was planted here many hundred years before his coming. 
An. Do. 210.  Tertullian saith of his time, 
Tertull. contra judaeos.  Britannorum inaccessa Romanis loca subduntur Christo: The countries of Britanny, which the Romans could never attain unto, 
Anno. 212.  are now subject to Christ. Origen saith of his time, 
Origen. in Ezechiel. Homi. 4. Athanas. Apologia Secunda.  Terra Britanniae consensit in Religionem Christi: The Land of Britanny hath agreed to Christ's Religion. Athanasius of his time saith, 
Anno. 334.  Episcopi Aphricae universae, Siciliae, Sardiniae, Hispaniarum, Galliarum, Britanniarum seize ad Concilium contulerunt: The Bishops of all Aphrica, Sicilia, Sardinia, Spain, France, and Britanny came thither to the Council, (holden at Sardica.) 
Anno 330.  Constantinus the Emperor in his time maketh mention of the Christian Churches in Britanny. 
Theodoret. Hist. Eccl. Li. 1. Ca 10. Hilarius De Synodis. Chrysost. in Homilia, Quòd Christus sit Deus Theodoret. Hist. Eccl. Li. 4. Ca 3.  S. Hilary in his time entitled his letter in this wise: 
Anno 360.  Clericis Tololanis, & Provinciarum Britannicarum Episcopis: To the clergy of Tolouse, 
Anno 400.  and to the Bishops of Britanny. Chrysostom of his time saith, Et jusulae Britannicae extra hoc mare sitae, & in ipso Oceano positae senserunt virtutem Verbi Dei: The Islands of Britanny being in the very Ocean, far out of this our Sea, have felt the power of God's Word. 
Anno 367.  Theodoretus of the time of the Emperor jovinian saith thus, Huic Fidei consenserunt omnes Ecclesiae, quaeque in Hispania sunt, quaeque in Britannia: To this Faith have agreed all the Churches, both of Spain, and of Britanny. These records may seem sufficient, if it please M. harding to receive them. And all, and every of these lived sundry hundred years before the arrival of Melitus, and Augustine.  
If any man shall happen to reply, The Faith was then utterly rooted out by the invasion of the English men being Heathens, 
Art. 3. Divis. 24. Beda, li. 1. ca 26.  that matter is already answered in my Former Reply to M. harding. Certainly Beda saith, The Queen of England was then Christened, 
Beda. li. 2. Cap. 2.  and that there were then in this Realm seven Bishops, and one archbishop, with other more great learned Christian men.  
As touching this Augustine, we are not bound to all his doings. Although M. harding allow him apostolic authority, yet all his hests were not Gospel. The Church in his time was grown to much corruption, as it may many ways appear by sundry places of S. Gregory. 
Beda. li. 2. Ca 26.  Verily Beda saith, The Bishops, and learned Christians of this Country utterly refused to receive this new Apostle with his Religion. And yet were they right Catholic, and godly men. And Galfridus saith, 
Galfridus. lib. 8. Cap. 4.  Erant septem Episcopatus, & Archiepiscopatus Religiosiscionis Praesulibus muniti, & Abbatiae complures, in quib. grex Domini rectum ordinem tenebat: There were then in England seven bishoprics, and one Archebishoprike possessed with very godly Prelates, and many Abbeys, in which the Lords flock held the right Religion.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 3.  
That we renew, and, as it were, fetch again from Hell the old and many a day condemned Heresies: that we sow abroad new sects, and such broils as never erst were heard of: also that we are already divided into contrary parts and opinions, and could yet by no means agree well among out selves.  

M. harding.  
Sith that ye raise up again the heresy of Aerius in deniing prayer for the dead, who was for the same accounted an Heretic above a leaven hundred years past: sith that ye raise up the Heresy of Manichaeus that lived before him, 
That these Defenders be renewers of old Heresies  in taking awaire free will● sith that ye raise up the Heresy of Vigilantius, in refusing to pray to Saints, and to honour their holy Relics, and to keep lights in Churches to the honour of God, and many other Heresies beside of old time condemned: sith that ye raise up the Heresy of Berengarius in denying the presence of Christ's very Body in the blessed Sacrament of the Altar: and sith that ye add to those more Heresies of your own, as the appointing of the supreme Pastorship or regiment of the Church in all things and causes spiritual to a lay Magistrate, the denying of the external Sacrifice of the Church, which we call the Mass, the maintenance of the breach of Vows of Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience: Again sith that your Division into sundry sects can neither be dissembled nor defended, whereof we shall speak hereafter more largely: all these things beside sundry other of like enormitic being true, as they be most true, this other cry made upon you is true.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This heap is great in show, and light in substance. Touching Berengarius, gentle Reader, 
Arti. 5. Diuis. 6.  for shortness sake I must refer thee to my Former Reply to M. harding. Aerius the Arian Heretic, the Breach of Vows, the Dissension of judgements in Religion, shallbe answered (God willing) hereafter, each matter severally in his place.  
We flatter not our Prince with any new imagined extraordinary power, but only give him that Prerogative & chiefty, that evermore hath been dew unto him by the ordinance, 
isaiah. 49.  and Word of God: that is to say, to be the Nurse of God's Religion: to make Laws for the Church: to hear and take up cases, and questions of the Faith, if he be able: or otherwise to commit them over by his authority unto the learned: to command the Bishops, and Priests to do their duties, and to punish such as be offenders. 
August. contra Cresc. li. 3. ca 71.  Thus the godly Emperor Constantinus sat in judgement in a cause Ecclesiastical, between Caecilianus, and Donatus à Casis Nigris, and in the end himself pronounced sentence. Greater authority than Constantinus the Emperor had, and used, our Princes require none. This, I trust, hitherto is no great Heresy.  
S. Jerome reproved Vigilantius, for that he found fault with the Vigils or night wakes, that then were used, with praying to Saints, with worshipping of Relics, with Lights, and other such like weighty matters. touching which whole controversy, 
Erasm. in praefatio. in Epistolam Hieronymi contra Vigilan.  Erasmus giveth this judgement: in hunc ita convitijs debacchatur Hieronymus, ut plusculum in co modestiae cogar desiderare. utinam argumentis tantùm egisset, et à convitijs temperasset: Against this Vigilantius S. Jerome so raileth, that I want in him some piece of sobriety. I would rather, he had dealt with arguments, and had spared his railing.  
Of prayer to Saints, & Lights, we shall speak hereafter. Night wakes afterward were condemned, as I remember, in the Council of Carthage, & so Sentence given by the Church with this great Heretic Vigilantius against S. Jerome. Verily the Fathers in a former Council holden at Eliberis in Spain decreed thus: 
Concil. Eliberi. Cap. 35.  Placuit prohiberi ne foeminae in coemiterio pervigilent: quia saepé sub obtentu orationis scelera latenter committunt. It liketh us that women be forbidden to watch at the places of burial: For often under pretence of prayer, privily they commit wickedness. To be short, if Vigilantius were an Heretic for reproving of Night Watches, why hath the Church of Rome so long sithence condemned & abolished the same watches, agreeably to Vigilantius, and contrary to the judgement of S Jerome?  
Relics were subject to much villainy, and are well-near worn out of themself.  
The Manicheis among other their fantastical errors were wont to say, the the body of Man was made, 
August De continent. Ca 9 August. contra duas Epist. pelagian Li. 2. ca 2. August ad Quod vult deum.  not by God, but by the Angels of the Devil, which they called Gentem tenebratum: and that in Man there be two souls of contrary natures: the one of the substance of God: the other of the substance of the Devil: and that either soul continueth still as it is, and cannot alter: That is to say, that the good soul can never be ill: and that the ill soul can never be good. And in this sense they said, that Man hath no Free wil  
All these, and other like errors we abhor and Detest, as frantic furies. We say, that the Soul of Man is not the substance, but the Creature of God: an that it may be changed from good to ill: from ill to good: that David may fall: that Paul may rise: that God giveth us a new heart, and a new Spirit within our breasts.  
But as touching the freedom of will, and power of ourselves, we say with S. Augustine, 
August Deverb. Apostoli, Sermo 11.  O malum Liberum Arbitrium sine Deo: O evil is Free Will without God. Again, Libero Arbitrio malè utens homo. & se perdidit, & Arbitrium: Man misusinge his Free Will, spilled both himself, and his wil Again, Quid tantùm de Naturae postibilitate praesumitur? 
Augusti. in Enchiridio, ca 30. Augusti. De Natura & Gratia cap. 53.  Vulnerata, saucia, vexata, perdita est. Vera confession, non falsa defensione opus habet: What do men so much presume of the possibility of Nature? It is woounded, it is mangled, it is troubled, it is lost. It behoveth us rather truly to confess it, then folsly to defend it. Again, Liberum Arbitrium captivatum, non nisi ad peccatum valet. Free will once made thrall, availeth now nothing but to sin. Again, Quòd bené vivimus, 
Augusti ad Boni faci. Li. 3. ca 8. Augusti. De verbis Aposto. Sermo. 10.  quòd rectè intelligimus, Deo debemus. Nostrum nihil est, nisi peccatum, quod habemus: That we live well, that we understand aright, we have it of God. Of ourselves we have nothing, but only sin, that is within us.  
The better to clear this whole case, I thought it good to use the more words. Thus may we learn to know ourselves, and humbly to confess our imperfection, and to give the whole glory unto God.  
Therefore to conclude, 
Augusti. De Bono perseveran. Cap. 13.  S. Augustine saith, Nos volumus: Sed Deus in nobis operatur velle. Nos operamur: Sed Deus in nobis operatur & operari pro bona sua voluntate. Hoc nobis expedit & credere, & dicere. Hoc est pium: hoc est verum: ut sit humilis, & submissa Confessio, 
Cap. 6.  & detur totum Deo. Tutiores vivimus, si totum Deo damus: non autem nos illi ex part, & nobis ex part committimus. We will: but it is God, that worketh in us to wil We work: but it is God that worketh in us to work, according to his good pleasure. This is behooveful for us both to believe, and to Speak: This is a Godly, this is a True Doctrine, that our Confession may be humble, and lowly, and that God may have the whole. We live in more safety, if we give all unto God, rather than if we commit ourselves partly to ourselves, and partly to him.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 4.  
That we be accursed Creatures, & like the Giants do war against God himself, and live clean without any regard or worshipping of God.  

M. harding.  
What ye be, God knoweth, and your own Conscience should know. Our Lord amend both you and us. But to say some what to that your guilty mind imagineth the World to report of you, if they which take away and abhor the external Sacrifice, wherein Christ according to his own institution, 
Lucae. 2●. 1. Cor. 11.  is offered to his Father, make no war against God: if they which make Christ a Minister of Shadows, Signs, Tokens, and Figures: they, which fear not to break their solemn Vows made to God, and defend the same as well done: they, which assure themselves of their Salvation, and therefore live dissolutely without due care and fear of God: If (I say) they be not cursed Creatures, and like Giants that war against God, then are ye clear of this charge.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
To answer Ifs with Ifs, and Words with Words, it were great folly. Therefore leaving the answer of Vows, & assurance of Salvation to their several places, first we deny not the Sacrifice of Christ. Christ only upon his Cross is our whole and only Sacrifice for sin, & beside him we have none other. How be it, 
In the. 17. Arti.  I have spoken hereof more at large in my Former Reply to M. harding.  
Neither make we Christ, as it liketh M. harding to say, a Minister of Signs & Figures. 
johan. 1.  We know, that Christ is the fulfilling & Perfection of the Law, and that Grace, and Truth are wrought by him. Yet nevertheless we say, that the Sacraments of the New Testament are Signs, and Figures. The old Father Tertullian expoundeth Christ's Words in this sort, Hoc est Corpus meum, 
Tertull. contra Mar●ion Lib 4. Augustin. in Psalm. 3. Augustin. contra A●●mantum, Cap. 12.  Hoc est, Figura Corporis mei: This is my Body, that is to say, This is a Figure of my Body. S. Augustine saith, Christus adhibuit judam ad conuivium, in quo Corporis & Sanguinis sui Figuram Discipulis suis commendavit, & tradidit: Christ receive judas unto his Banquet, whereat he delivered to his Disciples the Figure of his Body, and Blood. And again, Non dubitavit Dominus dicere, Hoc est Corpus meum, cùm daret Signum Corporis sui: Christ doubted not to say, This is my Body, whereas he gave a Token of his Body.  
I leave other Holy Fathers of like Words and sense well-near innumerable. Yet were they neither Giants, nor Rebels against God, nor accursed Creatures. If they had never used these Words, nor called the Sacrament the Figure, or Token of Christ's Body, than might M. harding have ●enne bold to say somewhat, and to lead awate his Reader with a Tragical exclamation of Signs, and Figures. How be it, he himself, as I have showed in my Former Answer, in the exposition of these words of Christ, 
Articul. 12. Division. 16.  This is my Body, and other like Phrases incident unto the same, to avoid one usual and common Figure, is forced to shift himself into thirty other unnecessary & childish Figures: as knowing that not so much as his open Untruths can well stand without Figures.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 6.  
That we despise all good deeds: that we use no discipline of Virtue, 
fasting with Flesh.  no Laws, no Customs: that we esteem neither right, nor order, nor equity, nor justice: that we give the bridal to all naughtiness, and provoke the people to all licentiousness and ●ust.  

M. harding.  
Ye teach men to Fast for policy, 
Fast for Policy. Fol. 2. Pa. 2.  not for Religion. And by your Statute of Wednesdays fast, who so ever shall write or say that forebearinge of Fleas he is a Service of God, otherwise then as other politic laws are, they shall be punished as spreaders of false News are and aught to be. When ye Preach only Faith not to remove the merit of works before Baptism, 
Epist. ad Roma. Bridle given to lewdness by this new Gospel.  as S. Paul meant it, but also after Baptism: When ye take away the Sacrament of confession and Absolution, give ye not the bridal to all naughtiness? Do not some of your Gospelling maids of London refuse to serve, except they may have liberty to hear a Sermon before noon, and a play at after noon?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I thought, M. harding had known a difference bitwéene fasting, and Abstinence, or choice of meats. True fasting is a religious work, ordained to testify our humility, & to make the Flesh the more obedient unto the Spirit, that we may be the quicker to Prayer, & to all good Works. But Abstinence from this or that meat with opinion of Holiness, Superstitious it may easily make a man, but Holy it can not. 
1. Corinth. 14. Hebrae. 13.  S. Paul saith, Cibus nos non commendat Deo: it is not meat that maketh us acceptable unto God. Again, It is good to confirm the heart with Grace, and not with meats: Wherein they that have walked, have found no profit. The meat serveth for the Belly, 
1. Corinth. 6. Roman. 14. Matth. 15.  and the Belly for the meat: The Lord will destroy them both. And again, The Kingdom of God is not Meat, and Drink. Likewise Christ saith, The thing that entereth into the mouth, defileth not the man.  
Hereby it is easy to see, that fasting is one thing, & Abstinence from Flesh is an other. The Nazareis in the old Testament abstained not from Flesh, & yet they Fasted. 
3. Regum. 17. Matthae. 3. Socrae. li. 5. ca 22. Cassidor. Lib. 9 Cap. 38.  Elias was said with Flesh, john the baptist eat the Flesh of Locusts: & yet they both Fasted. Socrates' saith, That many Christians in the Lente season did eat Fish & Birds: many abstained until three of the clock in the after noon, & then received all kinds of meat, either Fish, or Flesh, without difference. Likewise Epiphanius saith, Some eat all kinds of Birds, or Fowl, absteininge only from the Flesh of four footed beasts, 
Epipha. De Haeres. Lib. 3. In Oratione de Fide Catholica: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  And yet they kept their Lente truly, & fasted as well as any others. Wherefore Abstinence from any one certain kind of meat is not of itself a work of Religion to please God, but only a mere positive Policy 
a Augustin.  S. Augustine saith, Non quaeto quo Vescaris, sed quo Delecteris: I demounde not, what thou Eatest, but wherein thou haste Pleasure 
b Hieronym. in joelem. Cap. 1.  And S. Jerome saith of the Manicheis, jeiunant illi quidem: Sed illorum leiunium est saturitate deterius. They Foste in deed: but their fasting is worse, then if they filled their Bellies.  
Of only Faith, and Confession, we shall speak hereafter.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 7.  
That we labour and seek to overthrow the state of Monarchies and Kingdoms, and to bring all things under the rule of the rash inconstant People, and unlearned multitude.  

M. harding.  
Can monarch and Princes seem to be maintained by your sects. who teach the people to rebel for pretenced Religion? Allow ye the Monarchy of the Roman Empire, Who so much complain in your Apology, that the Pope made Charlemaigne Emperor of the west? Hath the Queen of Scotland cause to praise the procedings of your Gospel, through occasion whereof she ruleth not her subjects, but is rather ruled of her subjects?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here is an other great Untruth among the rest. For M. harding right well knoweth, that we never armed the people, nor taught them to rebel for Religion against the Prince. If any thing have at any time happened otherwise, it was either some wilful rage, or some fatal fury: It was not our Counsel: it was not our Doctrine. We teach the people, as S. Paul doth, to be subject to the higher powers, 
Roman. 13. Matth. 26.  not only for fear, but also for conscience. We teach them, that who so striketh with the Sword by Private authority, shall perish with the Sword. If the Prince happen to be wicked, or cruel, or burdenous, we teach them to say, with S. Ambrose, Arma nostra sunt Preces, & Lachrymae: Tears, and Prayers be our Weapons. 
Ambrose.  notwithstanding, what Rebellion hath been moved in England by some of your side, in the late Reigns of King Henry the eight, & King Edward the sixth in defence of your Religion, ye may well remember.  
The displacinge of the Emperor of Constantinople, and the placing of Charlemaigne the French King, serveth M. harding to small purpose: unless it be to disclose the Pope's conspiracy against the Emperor. Certainly, as any man may sensibly see, it was the advancing of the Pope, the strengthening of the Saracenes, and after of the Turks, and the Division, and dissolution of the state of Christendom. 
Platina in Adriano. 2.  Platyna saith, Ab hoc tempore perijt & potestas Imperatorum, & virtus Pontificum: After this time the power of the Emperors, and the Holiness of the Popes were both lost.  
touching the Queen of Scotland, I will say nothing: The kingdoms, and states of the World have sundry agreements, and compositions. The Nobles, and Commons there neither drew the Sword, nor attempted force against the Prince. They sought only the continuance of God's undoubted Truth, and the Defence of their own lives against your Barbarous & cruel invasions. They remembered, 
At Vassei, Anno. 1562.  besides all other warnings, your late dealing at Vassei, where as great numbers of their Brethren were suddenly murdered, being together at their Prayers in the Church, & holding up their Innocent hands to Heaven, & calling upon the name of God. Achab said sometime to the Prophet Elia, Thou art he, 
3. Regum. 17.  that troublest the whole Country of Israel. But Elias made him answer, It is not I, that trouble the Country: It is thou, and thy Father's house, which have forsaken the commeundementes of the Lord, and have followed after Baalim.  
The Subject is bound to obey his Prince: how be it not in all things without exception: but so far as God's glory is not touched. These Nobles had learned of S. Peter, 
Actor 5. Psal. 118. Psalm. 146.  It is better to obey God, than man: And of the Prophet David, Better it is to trust to God, then to trust in Princes. For they are mortal, and shall die: their Spirit shallbe taken from them, & then shall they return into the Earth. Neither may a godly Prince take it as any dishonour to his estate, to see God obeyed before him. 
Leo. De Passione Domi. Serm. 10.  For he is not God, but the Minister of God. Leo saith, Christus quae Dei sunt, Deo, quae Caesaris sunt, Caesari reddenda constituit, etc. Hoc est verè non impugnare Caesarem, sed iuvare: Christ commanded, that is dew unto God, to b●●euen to God: that is dew unto Caesor, to be given to Caesar. Verily this is not to rebel against, but to help Caesar. Likewise S. Ambrose, being himself in manner a captain unto the people in God's quarrel against Valentinian the Emperor: 
Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist 33.  Quid praesentius dici potuit à Christianis viris, quàm id, quod hody in nobis Spiritus Sanctus jocutus est? Rogamus, august, non pugnamus: Non timemus, sed Rogamus: What could be more boldly spoken of Christian men, then that the holy Ghost spoke in you this day? (Thus ye said) We beseech thee, Noble Emperor, we fight not. Wèe fear thee not, but we beseech thee.  
To conclude, the Queen of scotland is still in quiet possession of her estate: & is obeyed of her Subjects, so far as is convenient for godly people to obey their Prince.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 7.  
That we have seditiously fallen from the Catholic Church, and by a wicked schism and division have shaken the whole world, and troubled the common peace and universal quiet of the Church: & that, as Dathan and Abiron conspired in times passed against Moses and Aaron, even so we at this day have renounced the Bishop of Rome, without any cause reasonable.  

M. harding.  
Before Luther's time all Christian people came together peaceably into one Church, under one Head, as Sheep into one fold under one Shepherd, and so lived Vnanimes in domo, in one accord. But after that Satan, 
Division and Schismefolowed upon Luther's preaching. 1. johan. 2.  who at the beginning beguiled Eve, had persuaded some to taste of the poisoned apple of Luther's New Doctrine: they went out from us, who were not of us (for if they had been of us, they had remained with us) forsook the Catholic Church of Christ, sorted themselves into synagogues of antichrist, withdrew themselves from obedience to ward their Pastor and judge, and sundered themselves into diverse Sects. This schism, division, and conspiracy against the Head Shepherd, is nolesse wicked, 
Numer. 6.  then that of Dathan and Abiron against Moses and Aaron was. For as God commanded Moses and Aaron to be obeyed of the children of Israel, 
Great Untruths.  so Christ commanded all his Sheep to obey and hear the voice of him, 
johan. 21.  whom in Peter, and succeeding Peter, he made Shepherd over his whole stock.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Before the time that God's Holy will was, that Doctor Luther should begin to publish the Gospel of Christ, there was a general quietness: I grant: such as is in the night season, when folk be asleape. Yet, I think, to continue such quietness, no wise man will wish to sleep still.  
Ye say, They have forsaken the Catholic Church: They went from us. who were not of us. Nay rather, M. harding, we are returned to the Catholic Church of Christ, & have forsaken you, because you have manifestly forsaken the ways of God. But what if a man would a little put you friendly in remembrance? Sir, it is not so long sithence yourself were out of your own Catholic Church: and so were gone out from yourself: because yourself were not of yourself. For if yourself had been of yourself, you would have remained better with yourself. It is no wisdom, in carping others, to offer occasion against yourself. I beseech God to give you grace, that you may Redire ad cor, and return again to yourself. But here you bring in a great many Untruths in a throng together. You say, that as God commanded the people of Israel to obey Aaron, so Christ commanded all his Sheep to obey the Pope succeeding Peter: You say, Christ made the Pope Shepherd over his whole flock: You call him Our Pastor, and our judge: you call him the head Shepheard: & for proof hereof, for some countenance of Truth, ye allege the one and twentieth Chapter of S. john, in which whole Chapter notwithstanding, ye are not able to find, neither any such commandment of Christ: nor any mention of Peter's Successor: nor All his Sheep: nor Shepherd over his whole Flock: nor Our Pastor: nor Our judge: nor Our Headshepheard. It is much to report Untruth of a man. But to report Untruth of Christ, and of his Holy Word, and that willingly, and witingly, and without fear, some men think it to be the Sin against the Holy Ghost.  
As for these words, Feed my Sheep, Feed my Lambs, they pertain as well to other the Apostles, 
Matthae. 28. 1▪ Cor. 15.  as to Peter. Christ said generally to all his Disciples, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel. And Paul saith of himself, Ego plus omnibus laboravi: I have taken more pains (and more fed the flock) than all the rest. Surely me thinketh it is a weak kind of reasoning, to say thus, Christ bade Peter feed his sheep, Ergo, he made him headshepheard over all the world.  
But if this whole Prerogative hang of feeding the Flock, what then if the Pope Feed not? What if he never mind to Feed, as thinking it no part of his office? To conclude, what if he be utterly ignorant, as many have been, and cannot Feed? Yet must he needs be the headshepheard over the whole flock? and must all the sheep obey him, and hear his voice, that cannot speak? Verily S. Augustine saith, Qui hoc animo pascunt oves Christi, ut suas velint esse, non Christi, se convincuntur amare, 
Augustin in johan. Tracta. 123.  non Christum, vel gloriandi, vel dominandi, vel acquirendi cupiditate: Who so ever they be, that Feed the sheep to the end to make them theirs, and not Christ's, they sove themselves, and not Christ, for desire either of glory, or of rule, or of gain.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 8.  
That we set nought by the authority of the Ancient Fathers and Counsels of old time: that we have rashly and presumptuously disannulled the old Ceremonies, which have been well allowed by our fathers and forefathers many hundred years past, both by good customs, and also in ages of more purity: and that we have by our own private head without the authority of any Sacred & General Council brought New Traditions into the Church: & have done all these things not for Religion's sake, but only upon a desire of contention and strife. But that they for their part have changed no manner of thing, but have held & kept still such a number of years to this very day all things, as they were delivered from the Apostles, and well approved by the most Ancient Fathers.  

M. harding.  
The ancient fathers are but men, if they please you not. But if ye find any colour of advantage but in the new Schoolmen, ye make much of it. So that your own opinion is the rule to esteem them or despise them. 
Counsels.  Councles ye admit as your fancy and pleasure leadeth, sometimes three, sometimes four, sometimes five or six. But all ye would never admit: and yet so many, as are general and have been confirmed by the See apostolic, 
Ceremonies of the Church Abolished by the Gospelers.  they are all of like authority. Concerning Ceremonies, if ye show us not the use of Chrism in your Churches, if the sign of the Cross be not borne before you in Processions, and other where's used, if Holy Water be abolished, if lights at the Gospel and communion be not had, if peculiar Vestiments for Deacons, Priests, bishops be taken away, and many such other the like: judge ye, whether ye have duly kept the old Ceremonies of the Church.  
As for your new Traditions, Plights and Ceremonies, I can not tell, what to make of them, nor whether I may so term them.  
No manner of thing have we changed that is of necessity either to be believed, or to be observed.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We allow the Ancient Fathers the same credit, that they themselves have ever desired. S. Augustine hereof writeth thus: Neque quorumuis Disputationes, quantumuis Catholicorum, 
August. and Fortunatianum, ●pist. III.  & laudatorum hominum, velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus, ut nobis non liceat, salva reverentia, quae illis debetur, aliquid in illorum Scriptis improbare, aut respuere, si fortè invenerimus, quòd aliter senserint, quàm Veritas habet. Talis sum ego in scriptis aliorum: tales volo esse intellectores meorum: We receive not the Disputations or writings of any men, be they never, so Catholic, or praisewoorthy, as we receive the Canonical Scriptures: but that, saving the reverence dew unto them, we may well reprove or refuse some things in their writings, if it happen we find, they have otherwise thought, than the Truth may bear them. ●utche am I in the writings of others: and such would I wish others to be in mine. Likewise he writeth to S. Jerome, Non puto, 
August. ad Hieronym. Epist. 19  Frater, te velle Libros tuos legi, tanquam Apostolorum, aut Prophetarum: I reckon not, my Brother, that ye would have us so to read your Books, as if they were written by the Apostles, or Prophets. It is certain, Tertullian, EEyprian, Clemens Alexandrinus, Papias, Irenaeus, Victorinus, Lactautius, Hilarius, & other Ancient Fathers were oftentimes much deceived, S. Jerome s●●ffeth at S. Ambroses' Commentaries upon Luke, and calleth them, Nugas, trifles, and nicknameth S. Ambrose, 
Picus Mirandula in Apologia. August. contra Cros. onium, li. 2. cap. 21.  sometime calling him Coruus, sometime Cornicula Likewise S. Augustine saith, Ecclesiastici judices, ut homines, plaerunque falluntur: The judges, or Doctors of the Church, as being men, are often deceived. And Thomas of Aquine saith, Non tenemur de necessitate Salutis, credere non solùm Doctoribus Ecclesiae, ut Hieronymo, aut Augustino, sed ne ipsi quidem Ecclesiae, nisi in his quae pertinent ad substantiam Fidei: 
Picus Mirandula in Apologia Thomas in  We are not bound upon the necessity of Salvation to believe not only the Doctors of the Church, as Jerome, or Augustine, but also neither the Church itself, saving only in matters concerning the substane of Faith.  
touching the authority of Counsels, 
Quodlibet. 9 Arti. Vltimo. August contra Donat ist. lib. 2. Cap. 3.  S. Augustine saith, Ipsa plenaria Concilia saepè priora à posterioribus emendantur, cùm aliquo experimento aperitur, quod clausum e●at: The very General Counsels are often corrected, the former by the later, as often as by trial and experience the thing is opened, that before was shut. Likewise Panormitane saith, Plus credendum est uni privato fideli, quàm toti Concilio, & Papae, si meliorem habeat authoritatem, vel rationem: We ought to give more credit to one private ●aye man, 
Abb. Panormit. De Electio, & Electi Potest. Cap. Significasii. isaiah. 8.  then to the whose Council, and to the Pope, if he bring better authority, and more reason. If the Counsel be wicked, and carried with malice, as many have been, specially within these few late hundred years, We say, as the Prophet isaiah saith, Inite Consilium, & dissipabitur: Loquimini verbum, & non stabit: quia nobiscum est Dominus: Take Counsel together, and it shallbe broken: Speak the word, and it shall not hold: For the Lord is with us.  
As for the late School Doctors, yourselves weigh them as little, as noman less. You say in your common talks, Bernardus non vidit omnia: You have controlled your Doctor of all Doctors. Peter Lombard, with this common Caveat in the Margin, Hic Magister non tenetur: Here our Doctor is no Doctor. You yourself M. harding, 
M. harding, Fol. 92. b. M harding, Fol. 232. b. M. harding. Fol. 258.  in this your very Book against our Apology sat. that your Doctor Gratian was deceived, and in steed of Anacletus alleged Calixtus. You yourself again say, If in a secret point of learning S. Augustine, or S. Cyprian teach singularly, We follow them not: much less do we bind ourselves to beeve, what soever ●lbertus Pigghius hath written. And again, We bind ourselves neither to the words of Sylvester, nor of Pighius. And again. we take not upon us to defend all that the canonists, or Schoolmen say, or write. And an other of your company saith, that your Doctor Gratian hath published great untruths, 
Copus Dialogo 1. Pag. 33.  & wilfully falsified the General Council. Nomen Vniuer salis, saith he, assutum est à Gratiano. Thus, M. harding, ye use your Doctors, even as the Marchante useth his Counters: sometime to stand for an hundred pound, sometime for a penny.  
But now let us a little examine the particulars of your bill. Ye come in with Processions, with Lights, with Torches, with Tapers, with Chrism, with Oil, with Tunicles, and Chisibles, with Holy Water, and holy Bread, and I know not, what else: as if all these things had descended directly from the Apostles, and without the same the Church of God were no Church.  
Verily, 
Oil.  M. harding, we hate not any of all these things. For we know, they are the Creatures of God. But you have so misused them, or rather see destled, and beraied them with your superstitions, and so have with the same mocked, & deceived God's people, that we can no longer continue them without great conscience. I will pass over the rest, and speak only of your Oil, whereof you seem to make most account. 
De Consec. Olei.  In your Pontifical thus are ye taught to bless your Oil: Fiat Domine hoc Oleum te benedicente, unctio Spiritualis ad purificationem Mentis, & Corporis: O Lord, set this Oil by thy blessing be made a Spiritual ointment to purify both Soul and Body. And again, Emitte quaesumus, Sancte Pater, Spiritum Sanctum Paracletum tuum de Coelis in hanc pinguedinem Olivae, ad refectionem Corporum, & Sanationem animarum: O holy Father, we beseech thee, send down thy holy Spirit the Comforter from Heaven into this fatness of the olive, to the refreshing of Body and Soul. In like sort ye are taught to prate over the sick: Per hanc Sanctam unctionem, & suam prissimam misericordiam ignoscat tibi Deus, ut per hanc unctionem habeas Rem●ssionem omnium peccatorum: By this holy enointinge, and by his great Mercy God pardon thee, that by this anointing thou mayst have Remission of all thy fins. These things cannot be denied: they are written in all your Panuals, used and practised in all your Churches. Ye call it Holy Oil, & Oil of Salvation: Ye bear the people in hand, that thereby they shall have health of Body & Soul: And yet in deed ye have no Chrism at al. For Pope Innocentius saith, Chrisma conficitur ex Oleo, & Balsamo: 
Extra. De Sacra unctions.  The Chrism is made of Oil and Balsam. And to the making thereof the Balsam is as necessary, as the Oil. But these many hundred years ye have had no Balsam, nor hath there been any to be had: Therefore ye have had no Chrism this long while, but have deceived the people with quid pro quo, giving them one thing for an other.  
Now that your Oil came not from the Apostles, your own Doctor Panormitane is witness. 
Panormitan. De Consuetud. ca 5.  For thus he writeth, Apostoli olim conferebant Spiritum Sanctum sola manus impositione. Et quia hodié Praelati non sunt ita beati, fuit institutum, ut illi conferrent hoc Sacramentum cum Chrismate: The Apostles in old time gave the Holy Ghost only by s●ieinge on of hands. But now a days because Bishops be not so Holy, order hath been taken, that they should give this Sacrament with Chrism.  
Neither is this matter so thoroughly approved by all Antiquity, as M. Harding imagineth. For Pope Innocentius is witness, that in old times there were some, 
Extra. De Sacra unction. Vngitur.  that found fault with these doings. These be his words: Non ludaizat Ecclesia, cùm unctionis celebrat Sacramentum, sicut Antiqui mentiuntur: The Church is not Jewishe in solemnizinge the Sacrament of Unction, as the Elders have misreported.  
Touching your Lights, 
In Annotationi. in. 5. librum contra Marcionem.  and Tapers, Beatus Rhenanus a man of great learning, and judgement, doubteth not, but ye borrowed the use thereof from the Heathens. I grant, the Christians in old time had Lights in their Churches, when they met together at their common Prayers. But it appeareth by the Ancient Fathers, that the same Lights served to solace them against the dark, 
Augu. De tempo. in Natali Do. Sermo. 3.  and not for any use of Religion. S. Augustine saith, Vovent alius Oleum, alius Ceram ad luminaria noctis: They promise (to the Church) one Oil, an other wax, 
Eusebius devita Constan. Orat. 3. Hieron adver. Vigilantium. M. harding, Fol. 7. b. 〈…〉 6. ca 2.  for the night Lights. Likewise saith Eusebius, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Ignis Purus, quantum satis esset and praebendum lumen precantibus. A clear Light, so much as might suffice the people at their Prayers. So likewise saith S. Jerome, Cereos non clara luce accendimus, sed ut noctis tenebras hoc solatio temperemus: We sight not cut Tapers at mid day, but only by this comfort to eas the darkness of the night. Therefore, M. harding, unto you, that set up Lights in your Churches, as yourself say, to the Honour of God, the Ancient Father Lactantius saith thus, Num mentis suae compos putandus est, qui Authori, & Datori Luminis Candelarum, 
Lights. Water.  & Cerarum lumen offert pro munere? What, may we think, he is well in his wits, that unto God the Maker and giver of Light will offer up Candles, and Tapers for a present? Verily Tertullian saith, Accendant quotidiè lucernas, quibus lux nulla est, 
Tertul. De Idololatria.  etc. Illis competunt & Testimonia tenebrarum, & auspicia poenarum: Let them that have no sight (of God) set up their Tapers every day, etc. To them belongeth both the Testimony of darkness, and the beginning of Pain.  
But what shall I say of your Holy Water? No doubt it must needs serve, as your Oil doth, to the salvation of body, and soul. Augustinus Steuchus, a principal Doctor of your side saith, 
Augu. Steucha● in librum number. Cap. 19  Non inane institutum est, quòd Aquas sale & Orationibus sanctificamus, ut ad eorum aspersum delicta nostra deleantur. It is no vain invention, that we hallow Water with Salt and Prayers, that by the sprinkesinge thereof our sins may be forgiven. Thus profanely, and Heathenlike he writeth, as if the Blood of Christ were quite dried up.  
Beside all this, one of your Doctors of Louvain telleth us in good sadness, by report of one of the Jesuits, 
Copus Dialo. ●. Pa. 18. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: ulato in Timaeo: & Theodoret. De corrigendis Graecorum affectibus, Lib. 1.  that in India Holy Water is very wholesome to drive away Miso, and to make barren Women to conceive. I feign not this matter: The place may be seen. O M. harding, I must needs say of your company, that one said sometime of the Grecians, These that call themselves Catholics, are ever Children.  
Ye say, ye have changed nothing, that is of necessity either to be believed, or to be observed. What necessity ye mean, I can not well contecture. For when you list, your Holy Water, and Holy Bread must needs be of necessity. But in deed of the ancient Godly orders of the Church ye have in a manner left nothing, unless it be such as ye might best have spared: and the same ye have so defaced with superstition, that it hath now quite lost his former use, and is not the same it was before. Certainly if you had changed nothing, then should you have now no Private Mass.  
Therefore we may justly say to you, as Tertullian said in like case unto the Roman Heathens: 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  Vbi Religio? ubi veneratio Maioribus debita? Habitu, victu, instructu, sensu, ipso denique sermone Proavis renuntiastis. Laudatis semper Antiquitatem: nouè de die vivitis. Per quod ostenditur, dum à bonis Maiorum institutis deceditis, ea vos retinere & custodire, quae non debuistis: cùm quae debuistis, non custoditis. Where is your Religion? where is the reverence dew to your forefathers? You have forsaken them in your apparel, in your diet, in your order, in your meaning, and in your speech. Ye change your life daily: yet ye praise Antiquity. Whereby it appeareth, while ye seave the good orders of your Elders, that ye keep the things, ye should not keep: seeing ye keep not the things, ye should keep.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 10.  
And that this matter should not seem to be done but upon privy slander, and to be tossed to and fro in a corner only to spite us, there have been besides wilily procured by the Bishop of Rome certain persons of eloquence enough, and not unlearned neither: which should put their help to this cause now almost despaired of, and should polished and set forth the same, both in books and with long tales, to the end, that, when the matter was trimly and eloquently handled, ignorant and unskilful persons might suspect there was some great thing in it. In deed they perceived, that their own cause did everywhere go to wrack, that their steightes were now espied and less esteemed, and that their helps did daily fail them, and that their matter stood altogether in great need of a cunning spokesman.  

M. harding.  
We cannot despair of this cause, 
Confidence of the Catholics touching their cause. Lueae 21. Matthae, 28. Johan. 14. The Catholic Church assuredly defended. Ephes. 4.  unless we would forsake our Faith, as ye have. For believing Christ. which our faith leadeth us unto, we cannot mistrust the continuance of this cause. Heaven and Earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass, saith Truth itself. And his words tell us, that he will be with his Church all days to the world's end: And that he hath besought his Father to give to it the Spirit of Truth to remain with it for ever. Then be we most assured of this cause. We tell you therefore, it standeth, and shall stand by Christ's presence, and by the Holy Ghosts assistance, to the end. Your cause yet standeth not, but wavereth and tottereth, as that which S. Paul termeth a puff of doctrine, and doubtless shortly fall it shall, as all Heresies have fallen.  
The authors and professors of them be dead and rotten, in Helfire with weeping and grintinge of teeth. The like judgement lookeye and your followers to have, if ye repent not, and revoke your Heresies by time.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We cannot despair. saith M. harding, of the continuance of our cause. For Heaven and Earth shall pass: but Christ's Word shall not pass. He will be with us all days to the world's end, etc. These Words, M. harding, be true and certain: and therefore our hope is the firmer. Christ hath promised that the Spirit of Truth shall remain for ever, but not in the Pope, and his Cardinals. For thereof he made no promise. Nay rather the Prophet isaiah saith, The Spirit of God shall rest upon the poor, 
isaiah. 〈◊〉.  and meek hearted, that trembleth at the Word of the Lord.  
The Church of God shall stand still, yea though Rome were possessed with antichrist. 
Matthae. 15.  It is true that Christ saith, Every plant, which my Heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up: Upon which words S. Hilary saith, Significat, Traditionem hominum cruendam esse, 
Hilar in Ca 15. Matthaei.  cuius favore transgressi sunt Praecepta Legis: He meaneth, that the Tradition of man, for which Traditions sake they have broken the Law of God, shall be taken up by the roots. Heaven and Earth shall pass: and your fantastes, and devices, M. harding, shall pass: the Lord hath spoken it: But the Word of God, and his Church shall endure for ever.  
But M. hardings Almanac saith, Our Doctrine shall fall, and that very shortly. Herein I profess, I have no skill. Gods will be done. It is his cause: what so ever shall happen, his name be blessed for ever. In like sort the Heathens in old times, as S. Augustine saith, vaunted themselves against the Faith of Christ. 
August. In Psal. 70.  Ad certum tempus sunt Christiani: postea peribunt, & redibunt Idola: redibit quod erat anteà. Verùm tu, cùm expectas, miser Infidelis, ut transtant Christiani, transis ipse sine Christianis: These Christians are but for a while: ●al they shall, and that shortly. Then shall our Idols come again, and it shallbe as it was before. But, O thou miserable Infidel, while thou lookest that the Christians should pass, thou possessed away thee self without the Christians. Again be saith, Ecce veniet tempus ut finiantur, & non sint Christiani. 
Augusti. in eundem Psal●●m.  Sicut coeperunt ad aliquo tempore, ita usque ad certum tempus erunt. Sed cùm ista dicunt, sine fine moriuntur: & permanet Ecclesia praedicans brachium Domini omni generationi venturae: They say, behold, the day will come, when all these Christians shall have an end. As they had a time to begin, so shall they have a time to continue. But while they make these cracks, they themselves die without end. But the Church continueth still praising the almighty arm of God to every generation that is to come.  
But ye say, The Authors and Professors of our Doctrine be damned in Hell fiere, and cry, Peccavi. This is a very terrible kind of talk. But it is a rash part for you, M. Harding, so suddenly to skip into God's Chair, and there to pronounce your Sentence Definitive like a judge. 
August. in Psal. 36. par. 3.  But God will judge of your judgement. S. Augustine saith, Alia est sella terrena, aliud Tribunal. Coelorum: Ab inferiori Sententia accipitur. à superiori Corona: The earthly chair is one thing: the judgement seat in Heaven is an other. From the one we receive Sentence, from the other we receive a Crown. O M. harding, God grant you may once cry, Peccavi: lest the time come that ye shall cry out, as it is written in the Book of Wisdom: 
Sapien. 5.  These are they whom we sometime had in derision, and in a parable of reproach. We fools thought their life madness, and their end without honour. But now are they counted among the Children of God, and their portion is among the Saints.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 2.  
Now as for those things which by them have been laid against us, in part they be manifestly false & condemned so by their own judgements, which spoke them: partly again, though they be as false too in deed, yet bear they a certain show and colour of truth, so as the Reader (if he take not good heed) may easily be tripped and brought into error by them, specially when their fine and cunning tale is added thereunto: And part of them be of such sort, as we ought not to shun them as crimes or faults, but to acknowledge and confess them as things well done, & upon very good reason. For shortly to say the truth, these folk falsely accuse and slander all our doings, yea the same things, which they themselves cannot deny but to be rightly and orderly done: and for malice do so misconstrue and deprave all our sayings and doings, as though it were impossible, that any thing could be rightly spoken or done by us. They should more plainly & sincerely have gone to work, if they would have dealt truly: But now they neither truly nor sincerely, nor yet Christianly, but darkly and craftily charge and batter us with lies, and do abuse the blindness and fondness of the people, together with the ignorance of Princes, to cause us to be hated, and the Truth to be suppressed.  
This, lo ye, is the power of darkness, and of men, which lean more to the amazed wondering of the rude multitude, and to darkness, than they do to Truth & Light: and, 
Hierony adversus Rufinum.  as S. Jerome saith, do openly gainsay the Truth, closing, up their eyes, and will not see for the nonce. But we give thanks to the most good and mighty God, that such is our cause, where against (when they would feignest) they were able to utter no despite, but the same, which might as well be wrested against the Holy Fathers, against the Prophets, against the Apostles, against Peter, against Paul, and against Christ himself.  

M. harding.  
The Catholics do not burden you with aught, wherein by their own judgements they condemn themselves, as ye slander them not only here, but oftentimes in your Book. For if they judged otherwise. they would not wittingly do against their judgement. That is the special property of an Heretic, whom S. Paul hiddeth all men to a void, knowing that he that is such, is perverted, 
Tim. 5.  and seemeth even condemned by his own judgement.  
They show both your blasphemous Heresies, and your wicked acts. Luther, ye know. powered out his Heresies and villainies. etc. Your robbing of Churches, persecuting of men for standing steadfastly in the faith of the Holy forefathers, your incestuous marriages of Monks, Friars, and nuns, your breach of solemn vows for fleshly pleasure, your profaning and abandoning of Holy Sacraments, your contempt of ancient and godly ordinances and discipline of the Church, and such other things of like estimation.  
For in deed the catholics do persecute you, (if such deserved entreating of evil persons may be called persecution) and all good folk besides, we gr●●te, and shall so do, so long as they love the Truth, and keep them in the unity of the Church. Yet with no other mind do they persecute you, 
Genes. 16. johan. 2. 〈◊〉.  than Sara did Agar: then Christ the jews, whom he whipped out of the Temple: then ●eter did S●nom Magus.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Yewis, M. harding, it might please you to remember, that Bartholomaeus Latomus a Doctor of your side confesseth in writing to all the world, 
●ar. Latonus adversus Bucerum  that our request touching the Holy Ministration under Both Kinds, according to Christ's first Institution, is just and reasonable:  
That Gerardus Lorichius an other of your own side saith, Sunt Pse●docatholici, qui Reformationem Ecclesiae quoquo modo remorari non verentur: They be false Catholics (and this, 
●erar. Lorichius De Missa prorogand●. In 7. par. Canonis.  M. harding, he speaketh of you, being one of your own) they be False Catholics, that hinder the Reformation of the Church by all means they be able. He saith, you be false Catholics, far contrary to the common opinion: and concludeth in the end, that the wilful maintenance and sequel of your Doctrine in this point, is, as he calleth it, Haeresis, & Blasphemia pestilens, & execrabilis: An Heresy, and a Blayhemie against God, Pestilent and Cursed;  
That others of your ●de confess, that this your use of Ministration under one kind, 
Stevin Gard. in the devils Sophistry.  which now ye call Catholic, began first, not of Christ, or his Apostles, or any Ancient Learned Father: but only of the error, or, as he better termeth it, of the simple Devotion of the People:  
That Albertus Pighius, the stoutest gallant of all your Camp, granteth there have been, 
Albertus' ●ighius De Missa P●●uata. Platina in Ʋio 2. 10. Shidanus Li. 4.  and be many Abuses in your Pass, notwithstanding ye have told us far otherwise:  
That Pope Pius oftentimes granted, and used commonly to say, He saw great causes, why Priests should be restored to the liberty of Marriage: That Pope Adrian by his Legate Cheregatus confessed openly at Norenherg in the General Diet of all the Princes of Germany, that all the ill of the Church came first à culmine Pontificio, From the top Castle of the Pope:  
And to be short, M. harding, it might have pleased you to remember, that yourself in your first Book, 
M. Harding fo. 22 b.  in the Defence of your Private Pass, have written thus: Marry, I deny not, but that it were more commendable, and more Godly on the Churches part, if many well disposed, and examined would be partakers of the blessed Sacrament with the Priest.  
All these things, M. harding, be they ●ses, or Abuses: Reasonable, or Unreasonable: Right, or Wrong: Better or worse: Be they never so wicked, never so Blasphemous, never so cursed, yet be they stoutly defended still, and no hope offered of amendment: With what Conscience of your part, he only s●eth, that s●eth the Conscience. You grant, ye persecute your brethren, where ye have the Sword, and may persecute: but as Sara did Agar: 
Gene. 16 john 2. Chrysost. in Mat. thae. Homi. 19  as Christ did the jews: and not otherwise. Verily, M. harding, that Christ, or Sara were persecutors. I have not greatly heard. But I remember Chrysostom saith thus: Nunquid Ouis Lupum persequitur aliquando? Non, sed Lupus ovem. Sic enim Caim persecutus est Abel: 
Persecution for love.  non Abel Caim. Sic Ismael persecutus est Isaac, non Isaac Ishmael: Sic judaei Christum, non Christus judaeos: Haeretici Christianos, non Christiani Haeresicos. Ergo ex fructibus corum cognoscetis eos: What, doth the Sheep perscute the Wolf at any time? No, but the Wolf doth persecute the Sheep. For so Caim persecuted Abel, not Abel Caim: So Ishmael persecuted Isaac, not Isaac Ishmael: So the jews persecuted Christ, not Christ the jews: So the Heretics persecute the Christians, not the Christiaus the Heretics. 〈◊〉 ye shall know them by their fruits.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August contra Light, Pe●ili a. Lib. 2. Cap 19 Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 19  Non eo modo persecutionem passi sunt Pseudoprophetae ab Elia, quomodo ipse Elias à Rege nequissimo: Neither were the Palse Prophets so persecuted by Elias, as Elias was persecuted by the wicked King. Surely Chrysostom saith, Quem videris in sanguine persecutionis gaudentem, Lupus est: Whom so ever ye see ●eioicinge in the blood of persecution, he is the Wolf.  
But ye pretend great good will, and say, Ye persecute and murder your Brethren for Love, 
In vespit.  as Christ persecuted the jews. So I trow, Aristophancs saith, Philippides took a cudgel, and beatte his Father, and all for love. How be it. M. harding, neither are you armed, as Christ was armed: nor was Christ armed, as you are armed. I must say to you, as S. Augustine saith unto the Heretics the Donatists: 
August. contra Litter. Per●lta●● Lib. 2. Cap. 87.  Hanc formam ne ab ipsis quidem judaeis persecutoribus accepistis. Illi enim persecuti sunt Carnem ambulantis in terra: Vos evangelium sedentis in Coelo: Ye learned not this form of persecution, no not of the jews. For they persecuted the Flesh of Christ walking in the Earth: You persecute the Gospel of Christ sitting in Heaven. 
Holcore in. 1. Senten. Quaest 3. Arti. 8. Dubi 2. Orig. in Genes. Homi. 7. Gene. 21. Calat. 4.  Robert Holcote among other his doubts moveth this question An Amor sit odium: Whether Love be hatred; or no. If he were now alive, & saw your dealing, and the kindness of your Love, I believe, he would put the matter out of question, & say, undoubtedly your Love is hatred, it is no love. So Moses saith, Ishmael played or sported with Isaac. But S Paul saith, The same plaieinge and sporting was persecution. For thus he writeth: He, that was after the Flesh, persecuted him, was after the Spirit.  
I doubt not, but you think, of your part it is well done. For so Christ saith, Who so ever shall Murder you, 
johan. 16.  shall think be offereth a Sacrifice unto God. And yourselves have set to this note in great Letters in the Margin of your Decrees: judaei mortaliter peccassent, 
Dist. 13. Item: In Margin.  si Christum non Crucifixissent: The jews had Sinned deadly, if they had not hinged Christ upon the Cross. Benedictus Deus, qui non dedit nos in captionem Dentibus eorum: Blessed be God, that hath not given us to be a Pray unto their Teeth.  
To all the rest it is sufficient for M. harding to say, They be Blasphemous Heresies: wicked Acts: Lutheres Heresies, and villainies: robbing of Churches: Breaches of Vows: Pleas●ely pleasures: Abandoninge of the Holy Sacraments: Malices, slanders, and Lies. And besides these things, in effect he answereth nothing. Now to answer nothing with some thing, it were worth nothing.   

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 5.  
Now therefore, if it be leeful for these folks to be eloquent and finetongued in speaking evil, surely it becometh not us in our cause, being so very good, to be dumb in answering truly. For, men to be careless, what is spoken by them and theite own matter, be it never do falsely and sclaunderousely spoken, (especially when it is such, that the Majesty of God, and the cause of Religion may thereby be damaged) is the part doubtless of dissolute and reckless persons, and of them, which wickedly wink at the injuries done unto the Name of God. For although other wrongs, ye oftentimes great, may be borne and dissembled of a mild and Christian man: yet he that goeth smoothly away and dissembleth the matter when he is noted of Heresy, Ruffinus was wont to deny, that man to be a Christian. We therefore will do the same thing, which all Laws, which natures own voice doth command to be done, and which Christ himself did in like case when he was checked and reviled: to the in●●●t we may put of from us these men's slanderous accusations, and may defend soberly and truly our own cause and innocency.   

M. harding.  
Ye have not proved, the Truth to be of your side, nor ever shall be able to prove, maintaining the Doctrine of the Lutheras, Zwinglians, and calvinists, as ye do. Now all dependeth of that point. And because ye have not the Truth, what so ever ye say, it is soon confuted: and what so ever ye bring, it is to no purpose.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This is the very issue of the case: Whether the Doctrine that we profess, be the Truth, or no. Which thing through God's Grace, by this our conference, in part may appare. I beseech God the Author of all Truth, and the Father of Light, so to open our hearts, that the thing that is the Truth in deed, may appear to us to be the Truth.   

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 2.  
For Christ verily, when the Phariseis charged him with Sorcery, as one that had some familiar Spirits, and wrought many things by their help: I, said he, have not the Devil, but do glorify my Father: but it is you, that have dishonoured me, and put me to rebuke and shame. And S. Paul, when Festus the Lieutenant scorned him, as a mad man: I (said he) most dear Festus, am not mad, as thou thinkest, but I speak the Words of Truth & soberness. And the ancient Christians, when they were slandered to the people for mankillers, for Adulterers, for committers of incest, for disturbers of the common Weals, and did perceive, that by such slanderous accusations the Religion which they professed, might be brought in question, namely if they should seem to hold their peace, & in manner confess the fault: lest this might hinder the free course of the Gospel, they made Orations, they put up Supplications, and made means to Emperors, and Princes, that they might defend themselves and their Fellows in open Audience.   

M. harding.  
When ye prove, that ye have the Truth, then may ye be admitted, in your Defence to allege the example of Christ, of S. Paul, and of the first Christians. But now we tell you, being as you are, these examples serve you to no purpose. And for ought ye have said hitherto, the anabaptists, Libertines, Zwenkfeldians, Nestorians, Eunomians, Arians, and all other pestiferous Heretics might say the same aswell as ye. Christ was charged of the jews with using the power of impure Spirits, 
Luke. 11. Act. 26. Tertul. in Apolog.  blasphemously: Paul was scorned of Festus, as a mad man, without cause: the Ancient Christians were accused by the Infidels of heinous crimes, falsely. But ye are accused of Heresies and sundry Impieties, by Godly, Wise, and Faithful men, upon Zeal, by good advise, and truly. And as for those Ancient Christians, when they made Apologies or Orations in the Defence of the Christian Faith, 
The Apologies of the old Fathers were lawfully published. Eccles. Hist. Lib 4. Cap. 26.  they did it so as became Christian men, plainly and openly. Either they offered them to the Emperors with they own hands, or put to their names, and signified to whom they gave the same. As S. Hilary delivered a Book in Defence of the Catholic Faith against the Arians to Constantius. Melito and Apollinaris wrote their Apologies to the Emperors. S. justine the Philosopher and Martyr gave his first Apology for the Christians to the Senate of the Romans, the second to Autonius Pius Emperor: 
Eccles. Hist. Lib. 5. Cap. 21.  Tertullian to the Romans. S. Apollonius the Roman Senator and Martyr did Read his Book openly in the Senate house, which he had made in Defence of the Christian Faith. 
The Apology of the Church of England for forth suspiciously, and without due order.  But ye do your things, that aught to be done openly, in Hucker Mucker. Ye set forth your Apology in the name of the Church of England, before any mean part of the Church were privy to it, and so as though either ye were ashamed of it, or afraid to abide by it. The inscription of it is directed neither to Pope nor Emperor, nor to any Prince, nor to the Church, nor to the general Council than being when ye wrote it, as it was most convenient: There is no man's name set to it: 
Untruth.  It is Printed without Privilege of the Prince, contrary to Law in that behalf made: allowed neither by Parliament, nor by Proclamation, nor agreed upon by the clergy in Public and lawful Synod. This packing becometh you: it becometh not the upright Professors of the Truth Wherefore your unlawful Book, 
The Apology ● famous Libel.  as it is, so it may be called an invective, or rather a Famous Libel, and slanderous Writ, as that which seemeth to have been made in a corner, and cast abroad in the streets, the Authors whereof the Civil Law punis punisheth.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
How far forth these examples may serve us, we remit the judgement thereof to the discrete Christian Reader. It is not enough thus to cry out, Impieties, and Heresies. M. hardings bare Word in this behalf is not sufficient to warrant an evidence. Certainly among other great comforts, that we have in God's mercies, this is one, and not the least, that touching the innocency, and right of out cause, we may say to you, as Christ said to the Phariseis, We have not the Devil, 
johan. 2. Act. 26.  but we glorify our Father: Or, as S. Paul said unto Festus, We are not mad (M. harding) as ye report of us: but we viter unto you the Words of Truth and sobriety.  
But this is a piteous fault: The names of all the Bishops, Deans, Acchedeacons', Personnes, vicars, and Curates of England are not set to our Apology. It is directed neither to the Emperor, nor to the Pope, nor to the Council. Neither is it Printed with Privilege of the Prince. This last clause is a manifest Untruth, and may easily be reproved by the Printer. Hereof ye conclude, It is a slanderous Libel, and was written under a Hedge, and, as you say, in Hucker Mucker.  
first, were it granted, that all, ye say of Hilary, Melito, justinus, Tertullian, and Apollonius were true: Yet must it needs follow, that all Books, that are not Subscribed with the Authors names, were written in a corner? first to begin with the Scriptures, tell us, M. harding, who wrote the Books of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numeri, of Deuteronomium, of Io●ue, of the judges, of the Kings, of the Chronicles, of job, etc. Who inrote these Books? I say: Who authorised them? Who Subscribed his name? Who set to his S●ale? The Book of Wisdom by some is Fathered upon Philo, by some upon Solomon. The Epistle unto the Hebrews, some say, was written by S. Paul: Some, by Clemens: Some, by Barnabas: Some, by some other: & so are we uncertain of the Authors name. S. Mark, S. Luke, S. john, never once named themselves in their Gospels. The Apostles Crede, the Canons of the Apostles, by what names are they Subscribed? How are they authorized? To what Pope, to what Emperor were they offered? To leave others the Ancient Doctors of the Church, which, as you know, are often misnamed, Ambrose for Augustine, Greek for Latin, New for Old: your Doctor of Doctors, the fairest flower, and crop of your garland Gratianus, is so well known by his name, that wise men can not well tell, 
Erasm. In Praesae. in tertiam Seriem quaerti Tom. Hieronymi.  What name to give him. Erasmus saith of him thus, Quisquis fuit, sive Gratianus, sive Crassianus: What so ever name we may give him: be it Gratianus, or Crassianus. And again he saith, Eruditi negant, illam Gratiani, nescio cuius, congeriem ulla unquam Publica Ecclesiae authoritate fuisse comprobatam: The learned say, that Gratian'S Collection, or heap of matters, was never allowed by any Public Authority of the Church. 
Erasm. In Praefatione in. 4. Tom. Hieronymi.  And again, Non constat ullis argumentis, quis fuerit Gratianus, quo tempore opus suum exhibuerit, cuius Pontificis, cuius Concilij fuerit Authoritate comprobatum: It cannot appear by any tokens of record, neither what this Gratian was: nor at what time he offered up his Book: nor what Council, nor what Pope allowed it.  
Who subscribed the late Council of Colaine? Who subscribed the Book not long sithence set abroad under the name of the Church of Colaine, and named Antididagma? To be short, who subscribed your own late Book entitled the Apology of Private Mass? Where were they written? Where were they Subscribed? By what authority, and under what names were they allowed? I will say nothing of your late Famous Volume bearing the name of Marcus Antonius Constantius. This Book, as you see, hath three great names: notwithstanding the Author himself had but two: and yet not one of all these three. What, M. harding, would you make your Brethren believe, that all these be but slanderous Writes, devised only in Hucker Mucker, and under a Hedge?  
The Decree, 
Actor. 13  the Apostles made in the fiftenthe Chapter of the Acts, it appeareth not, it was so curiously subscribed with all their names. The Protestation of the Bohemiens in the Council of Basile, the Confession of the Churches of Geneva & Helvetia, for aught that I know, have no such Public Subscriptions. Neither is it necessary, nor commonly used, to join Private men's names to Public matters: neither in so mighty & ample a Realm, upon all incident occasions is it so easy to be done. Briefly our Apology is confirmed by as many names, as the high Court of parliament of England is confirmed.  
Neither was the same conceived in so dark a corner, as M. harding imagineth. For it was afterward imprinted in Latin at Parise: and hath hen sithence Translated into the French, the Italian, the Duche, and the Spanish tongues: and hath been sent, and borne abroad into France, Flaunders, Germany, Spain, Poole, Hungary, Denmark, Sueucland, Scotland, Italy, Naples, and Rome itself to the judgement and trial of the whole Church of God. Yea it was Read, and sharply considered in your late covent at Trident, & great threats made there, that it should be answered: and the matter by two Notable learned Bishops taken in hand, the one a spaniard, the other an Italian: Which two notwithstanding, these five whole years have yet done nothing, nor, I belèeve, intend any thing to do. In deed certain of your Brethren have been often gnawing at it: but such as care nothing, nor is cared, what they writ.  
But if names be so necessary, we have the names of the whole clergy of England, to confirm the Faith of our Doctrine, and your name, M. harding, as you can well remember, amongst the rest: unless, as ye have already denied your Faith, so ye will now also deny your name.  
To conclude, it is greater modesty to publish our own Book, without Name, then, as you do, to publish other men's Books in your own Names. For in deed, M. harding, the Books ye lend so thick over, are not yours. Ye are but translators: ye are no Authors. If every bird should fetch again his own Feathers, alas your poor Chickens would die for cold.  
But you say, We offered not our Book to the Pope. No, neither aught we so to do. He is not our Bishop: He is not our judge. We may say unto him, as the Emperor Constantius said sometime to Pope Liberius, 
Theodoret. in Hist. Ecclesiast.  Quoia es tu pa●s Orbis terrarum? What great portion art thou of the whole World? As for your Council of trident, God wot, it was a seely covent, for aught that may appear by their Conclusions.  
We offered the Defense, and profession of our Doctrine unto the whole Church of God: & so unto the Pope, & the Council too, if they be any part, or member of the Church: & by God's mercy, shall ever be able in all places both with our hands, and with our Bodies to yield an account of the hope we have in jesus Christ. Whereas it liked you to term our Apology a Slanderous Libel, I doubt not, but who so ever shall iudifferently consider your Book, shall think M. hardings tongue wanteth no slander.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 3.  
But we truly, seeing that so many thousands of our brethren in these last twenty years have borne witness unto the Truth, in the mids of most painful torments, that could be devised: and when Princes desirous to restrain the Gospel, sought many ways, but prevailed nothing, & that now almost the whole world doth begin to open their eyes to behold the light: we take it, that our cause hath already been sufficiently declared and defended, and think it not needful to make many words, seeing the very matter saith yenoughe for itself.  

M. harding.  
The reasons and examples ye bring for it, conclude nothing. Because lacking Truth. ye build upon a false ground, what so ever ye set up, eftsoons it falleth, being stated by no just proof. Here ye go forth, and feign would ye prop up that matter: but your reasons be as weak as before. There have not so many thousands of your Brethren been burnt for Heresy in these last twenty years, as ye pretend. But when ye come to boasting, then have ye a great grace in using the Figure Hyperbole: Then Scores be Hundreds: Hundreds be Thousands: Thousands be Millions.  
But what was Michael servetus the Arian, 
servetus burnt for Heresy at Ge●eua.  who was burnt at Geneva by procurement of Caluine, a Brother of yours? David George that took upon him to be Christ, who was taken up after he was buried and burnt at Basile, 
David George. joan of Kent.  was he your Brother? To come near home, joan of Kent that fil●h, who took forth a lesson further than you taught her (I trow) or yet Preach, was she a Sister of yours? So many Adamites, so many Zwenck feldians, so many hundreds of anabaptists and Libertines, as have within your twenty years been rid out of their lives by fiere, sword, and water in sundry parts of Christendom, were they all of your blessed brotherhood?  
And this is the chief argument ye make in all that Huge Dungehil of your stinking Martyrt, 
Acts and Monuments.  which ye have entitled Acts and Monuments. But we tell you, It is not death that justifieth the cause of dying: But it is the cause of dying that justifieth the Death.  
Princes (ye say) were desirous to restrain your Gospel, and though they went about it by many ways, yet prevailed they nothing. Therefore your Doctrine must needs be the true Gospel. As good an Argument as this is, 
A weak argument of Truth.  may thieves make in their Defence. For Princes be desirous to keep their Dominions from robbing, and have ever devised strait Laws and punishments for restraint of thieves: yet be thieves every where, and theft is daily committed.  
And whereas your Gospel is a gross Gospel, 
This Carnal Gospel soon taketh place among carnal hearers.  a Carnal Gospel, a Belly Gospel: wonder it is not, if those people be not wholly withdrawn from assenting to the same, who be not of the finest wits. and be much given to the Service of the Belly, and of the things beneath the Belly. Yet where the Princes have used most diligence, 
Heresies restrained by due punishment.  and best means to stop the course of your Heresies, there the people remain most Catholic: As every man may judge by view of Italy, Spain, Base Almain, and France, before that weighty Sceptre by God's secret providence for punishment of sin, was committed to feeble hands, that for tender age were not able to bear it.  
Your other argument, 
The argument of the defenders serving well for Antichrist.  whereby ye would persuade your Gospel to be the truth, is, that now (as ye crack) almost the whole world doth begin to open their eyes to behold the light. This argument serveth marvelous well for Antichrist. And truly, if he be not already come, ye may very well seem to be his foreronners. Nay Sirs, if it be true that ye say, that almost the whole world looketh that way, knowing that in the latter days and toward the end of the world iniquity shall abound, and the Charity of the more part shall wax cold: 
Matth. 24.  We may rather make a contrary argument, and judge your Gospel to be erroneous and false, because the multitude is so ready to receive it. 
The argument of multitude returned upon the defenders to a contrary conclusion.  Again Christ hath not loved his Church so little, as that the world should now begin to open their eyes to behold the light. For the same presupposeth a former general darkness. It standeth not with Christ's promises made to the Church, touching his being with the Church all days to the worlds end, and the Holy Ghosts remaining with it the Spirit of Truth for ever, that he should suffer his Church, 
Matth. 28. johan. 14.  to continue in darkness and lack of Truth, these thousand years past, and now at the latter days to reveal the Truth of his Gospel by Apostates, Vowebreakers, church-robbers, and such other most unlike to the Apostles.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What so ever we say, here appeareth small weight in M. hardings sayings. We make no boast of the numbers, and multitudes of our Martyrs. And yet, as S. Paul saith, if we should needs boast, we would chief boast of such our infirmities. 
2. Cor. 1●.  But we rejoice with them, and give God thanks in their behalf, for that it hath pleased him, to prepare their hearts unto temptation, to try and purify them as Gold in Furnace, and to keep them faithful unto the end.  
As for David George, and Seruete the Arian, and such other the like, they werè yours, M. harding, they were not of us: You brought them up, the one in Spain, the other in Flaunders. We detected their Heresies, and not you: We arraigned them: We condemned them: We put them to the Execution of the Laws. It séemethe very much to call them our Brothers, because we burnt them. It is known to Children, it is not the death, but the cause of the death that maketh a Martyr. 
August in Psal. 34. Par. 2.  S. Augustine saith, Tres erant in Cruce: unus salvator: Alter Saluandus: Tertius Damnandus. Omnium par Poena, sed dispar causa: There were three hanging on the Cross: The first was the savour: The second to be Saved: The third to be Damned. The Pain of all three was one, but the cause was diverse.  
Your anabaptists, and Zuenkfeldians, we know not. They find Harbour emongste you in Austria, Slesia, Moravia, and in such other Countries, and Cities, where the Gospel of Christ is suppressed: but they have no Acquaintance with us, neither in England, nor in Germany, nor in France, nor in scotland, nor in Denmark, nor in Sueden, nor in any place else, where the Gospel of Christ is clearly preached. But it hath been your great Policy these many late years, when ye murdered the Saints of God, first to root out their Tongues, for fear of speaking: and then afterward to tell the people, they were anabaptists, or Arians, or what ye lifted. With such policy Nero sometime that Bloody tyrant burnt the Christians in heaps together, 
Suetonius Tranquillus in Nerone.  and made open Proclamations, that they were Traitors, and Rebels, and had ●ired the City of Rome.  
It pleaseth you for lack of other Evasion, to call the Story of Martyrs a Dungbi● of Lies. But these Lies shall remain in Record for ever, to testify and to condemn your Bloody doings. Ye have imprisoned your Brethren, ye have strippeth them naked, ye have scourged them with Rods, ye have burnt their hands and arms with flaming Torches, ye have famished them, ye have drowned them, ye have burnt them: ye have summoned them being dead, to appear before you out of their graves, ye have ript up their buried carcases, ye have burnt them, ye have thrown them out into the Dunghill: ye took a poor Babe falling from his Mother's Womb, and in most cruel, and Barbarous manner threw him into the fiere.  
All these things, M. harding, are true: they are no Lies: The eyes, and consciences of many thousands can witness your doings. The Blood of innocent Abel crieth to God from the earth: and undoubtedly, he will require it at your hands. 
Chrysost in Matth. 1 jomi. 19  Chrysostom saith, as it is alleged before, Quem videris in Sanguine persecutionis gaudentem, is Lupus est: Who so ever hath pleasure in the Blood of persecution, the same is a Wolf. Ye slew your Brethren so cruelly, not for Murder, or Robbery, or any other grievous crime, they had committed, but only for that they trusted in the Living God. How be it, we may say with the Old Father Tertullian, 
Tertull. ad Scapulam.  Crudelitas vestra nostra gloria est: Your cruelty is our glory.  
Whereas we avouch the Power and Authority of God's Holy Word, for that the more it is trodden down, the more it groweth, and for that the Kings, and Princes of this world with all their puissance, and policy were never able to root it out, your answer is, that this reason may serve thieves as well as us. To dissemble your odious comparisons, how lightly so ever it shall please you to weigh this reason, yet your Forefathers the Phariseis in old time seemed to make some account of it. 
johan. 12.  For thus they murmured, and misliked among themselves: Videtis, nos nihil proficere. Ecce Mundus totus post eum abijt. Ye see, we can do no good. Lo the whole world (for all that we can dòo) is gone after him. Tertullian likewise saith, Exquisitior quaeque crudelitas vestra illecebra magis est Sectae. Plures efficimur, 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  quoties metimur a vobis. Semen est Sanguis Christianorum: The greatest cruelty, that ye can devise, is an enticement to our Sect. How many of us so ever ye murder, when ye come to the view, ye find us more and more. The seed of this increase is Christian Blood. 
August. de Civi. lib. 22. cap. 6.  So S. Augustine, Ligabantur, includebantur, caedebantur, torquebantur, urebantur: & multiplicabantur: They were fettered, they were imprisoned, they were beaten, they were rack, they were burnt: and yet they multiplied. S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. lib. 1. Epist. 3. Gregorius Nazianzen. in reditium suum ex agro. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Euseb. li. 4. ca 8.  Sacerdos Dei evangelium tenens, & Christi praecepta custodiens, occidi potest, vinci non potest: The Priest of God holding the Testament in his hand, killed he may be, but overcome he can not be. So likewise Nazianzene, Morte vivit: vulnere nascitur: depastum augetur: By death it liveth: by wounding it springethe: by diminishing it encreasethe.  
Thus these Holy Fathers, when they saw, the Gospel of Christ increased and grew by persecution, contrary to all judgement of reason, and worldly policy, they were enforced, contrary to M. hardings judgement, therein to acknowledge the mighty power, and hand of God, and an undoubted Testimony of the Truth. justinus a Godly Learned Father, and Martyr saith thus of himself, Cùm auditem Christianos publicè traduci, & exagicati ab omnibus, videren autem eos ad mortem, & ad omnia, quae ad terrorem excogitari possent, esse intrepidos, cogitabam, nullo modo posse fieri, ut illi in aliquo scelere viverent: When I (being an Heathen, and one of Plato's Scholars) heard that the Christians were accused, and revised of all men, and yet saw them to go to their death, and to all manner terrible, and cruel torments, quietly, and without fear, I thought with me self, it was non possible, that such men should live in any wickedness. 
Sozomen. lib 1. cap. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  The like writeth Sozomenus of the Christians in the Primitive Church: Nec adulatione victi, nec minis perterriti, magnum omnibus argumentum dabant, seize de maximis praemiis in certamen descendere: The Christians neither relenting by fair means, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  nor shrinking for threats, made it well appear to every man, that it was for some great reward, they suffered such trouble.  
These learned Fathers therefore saw, that M. harding could not see, the encreasinge of the Gospel through death, and persecution, maugre the might of worldly Princes, 
Psal. 2.  is an evident token of the Truth. The Prophet David saith, The Princes came, and consulted together against God, and against his Christ. But he that dwell the in heaven, 
Prover. 22.  will laugh them to scorn. There is no wisdom, there is no policy, there is no counsel against the Lord.  
Further, you say, Our Gospel is gross, and the people dull, and sensual, and given to their belly, and beastly pleasure, and therefore the apt, and readier to receive the same. O M. harding, what a desperate cause is this, that cannot stand without such manifest blasphemy of the Gospel of Christ, and despiteful reproach of God's people? Certainly S. 
Rom. 2. Psalm. 2.  Paul saith, The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation: And the Prophet David saith, The people is Christ's inheritance. What hath the people so much offended you, that you should either in this place so scornfully, and so reproachfully report of them, or in your former Book so disdeingfully call them Swiene, 
M. harding, Fol. 155. b.  and Dogs? Yet is it not so long sithence yourself were an earnest professor of the same Gospel, were it never so gross. Where was then your fineness, and sharpness of wit? Where was your belly? Where was the rest? You should not so soon have forgotten your own self.  
Surely M. harding, neither will the sensual man drowned in filthy, and beastly pleasures take up his Cross, and follow Christ, and yield his neck to your sword, or his body to your fiene: neither is it a gross, or sensual Gospel, that will lead him to the same.  
You say, it standeth not with God's promiss, to forsake his Church a thousand years. It is much for you, M. harding, openly to break God's commandments, to defile his Holy Sanctuary, to turn light into darkness, and darkness into light: and yet nevertheless to bind him to his promiss. All men be liars, 
Psal. 50. 2. Tim. ●.  but God only is true, and prevailethe, when he is judged. God knoweth his own. Christ will be evermore with his Church, yea although the whole Church of Rome conspire against him.  
But why do you so much abate your reckoning? Why make you not up your full account of fifteen hundred thréescoare and six years, as ye were wont to do? Ye have here liberally, and of yourself quite stricken of five hundred thréescoare and six years, that is to say, the whole time, wherein the Apostles of Christ, and Holy Martyrs, and other Learned Fathers, and Doctors lived: in which whole time it appeareth by your own secret Confession, the Church of God might well stand both without your Private Mass (for then was there none) and also without many other your like fantasies. Neither ought you, M. harding, so deeply to be grieved, and to call us Apostates, and Heretics, for that we have reform either our Churches to the Pattern of that Church, or ourselves to the example of those Fathers. Verily in the judgement of the godly, five hundred of those first years are more worth, than the whole thousand years that followed afterward.  
Therefore I will answer you with the words of S. 
Hieron ad Pammachium & Oceanum.  Jerome: Quisquis es assertor ●ouorum Dogmatum, quaeso te, ut parcas Romanis ●uribus: parcas Fidei, quae Apostolico ore laudatur. Cur post quadringentos annos docere nos niteris, quod anteà nescivimus? Cur proffers in medium, quod Petrus, & Paulus edere noluerunt? Vsque ad hunc diem sine ista Doctrina Mundus Christianus fuit. Thou, that art a Maintainer of new Doctrine, what so ever thou be, I pray thee spare the Roman ears: spare the Faith, that is commended by the Apostles mouth. Why goest thou about now after four hundred years to teach us that Faith, which before we never knew? Why bringest thou us forth that thing, that Peter, and Paul never uttered? Evermore until this day the Christian world hath been without this Doctrine.   

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 7.  
For if the Popes would, or else if they could weigh with their own selves the whole matter, and also the beginnings and procedings of our Religion, how in a manner all their travail hath come to nought, no body driving it forward, and without any worldly help: and how on the other side, our cause, against the will of Emperors from the beginning, against the wills of so many Kings, in spite of the Popes, and almost maugre the head of all men, hath taken increase, and by little and little spread over into all Countries, and is come at length even into kings Courts and Palaces: These same things me think the might be tokens great enough to them, that God himself doth strongly fight in our quarrel, and doth from Heaven laugh at their enterprises: and that the force of the Truth is such, as neither Man's Power, nor yet Helle gates are able to root it out.   

M. harding.  
It is well, that ye use the term of the beginning and procedings of your Religion. For in deed of late years it began, not at jerusalem, but at Wittenberg. Neither was it first delivered unto you by an Apostle, but by an Apostata. Still it proceedeth, and the farther of from the end. And well may ye name it your procedings, for there is no stay in it. What likethe to day, mislike the tomorrow. The silly beguiled souls that follow it, be as S. Paul saith, over learning, and never reaching to the knowledge of the Truth. 
●. Tim. ●.   
Did not your Religion begin first of Covetise, 
Untruth.  and grew it not afterward of rancour and malice, 
The first beginning of this new Gospel, and the occasion that first moved Luther to Heresy.  which Martin Luther conceived against the Dominican Friars in Saxony, because Albert the archbishop of Mentz and elector of the Empire, had admitted them to be Preachers of the Pardon of a Crusade against the Turks, contrary to an Ancient custom, whereby the Augustine Friars, of whom Luther was one, had of long time been in possession of that preferment? Is it not well known what afstirre Friar Luther made against john Tetzet the Friar of S. Dominic'S order, for that the said Tetzet was made chief preacher of a Pardon. wherein, was great gain, and thereby himself was bereft of that sweet Morsel, which in hope he had almost swallowed down?  
Where you say, your Religion is spread abroad, and hath taken so much increase against the wills of Princes, and almost maugre the head of all men: that is as false, as your Religion is.  
Did not the great slaughter of your hundred thousand Bowers of Germany signify to the world, 
The diet of Smalcald.  your cause to have had the help of man: What may weindge of the great League of german Princes made at the diere of Smalcald, for defence of your Lutheran Gospel?  
The troubles and tumults of France raised by your Brethren the Huguenots, 
The Hugu●no● of France.  and the lament able outrages committed there for your Gospel's sake, be they not a witness of fresh memory, that your Religion is maintained, set forth, and defended with power and help of men?  
That it is now at length come even into kings Courts and palaces, 
The coming of Luther's Gospel into Prince's Courts is a weak argumen for the Truth.  it moveth wise men no less to suspect it, then to praise it.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Ye make yourself game, M. harding, for that the preaching of the Gospel issued first out of Wittenberg, and not from Rome: notwithstanding Wittenberg is a noble, and a famous University, so generally frequented out of all foreign Countries, and so much commended for all kinds of tongues, and liberal knowledge, as not many the like this day in Christendom.  
But be it, that Wittenberg were so simple a burrow, as M. harding imagineth. Yet were it not more simple than was the Town of Nazareth: in which poor Town notwithstanding, first appeared the most glorious, and greatest Light of the world. Christian modesty would not disdain the Truth of God in respect of place. That rather becommethe the Proud looks of the Scribes, and Phariseis. They despised Christ and his Disciples, and called them Nazarenes, in despite of his Country. And there hence, it is likely, first grew that scornful question used by Nathanael, 
johan. 1  Nunquid ex Nazareth potest aliquid esse boni? Can any good thing come from Nazareth, so poor a Town? So Celsus the Heathen despised the Religion of Christ, because it came (not from Rome, or Athens, but) from the Barbarous jews. 
Origen. contra Celsum li. 1.  For thus Origen reporteth of him: Dogma Christianuns affirmat à Barbaris cepisse ortum, hoc est, à judaeis. He saith, the Doctorue of the Christians had his beginning only from a Barbarous Nation, that is to say, from the jews.  
But this is the mighty hand and power of God. 
1 Cor. 1.  He chusethe the weak things of the world, to confound the strong: and the foolish things of the world, to confound the wise. 
1. Reg. 17. 2. Thess▪ 2 Matthae. 11. Psal. 24. Galat. 3.  He overthroweth the great Goliath with a silly sling, and blowethe down antichrist in all his glory with the breath of his mouth. I thank thee, O Father, saith Christ: for that thou haste hid these things from the wise, and Politic: and haste revealed the same unto the simple. The Faith of Christ is not bound to place. The whole Earth is the Lords, and all the fullness of the same. There is now no Distinction of Greek, and Barbarous: We are all one in Christ jesus.  
Notwithstanding, the Gospel of Christ that we profess, neither had his beginning from that Learned Father Doctor Luther, nor came first from Wittenberg. It is the same Gospel, 
Mich. 4.  whereof it is Written by the Prophet, The Law shall come out of Zion, and the Word of God out of Jerusalem.  
touching your long tale of Doctor Luther's avarice, and sale of Pardounes, I mind not, nor need not to answer you. It is a simple stale slander. Yet it often serveth your turn of course, when other things begin to fail. In deed Fréere Tecel the Pardoner made his proclamations unto the people openly in the Churches in this sort: 
johan. Sleidanus, lib. 13.  Although a man had lain with our Lady the Mother of Christ, and had begotten her with Child, yet were he able by the Pope's power to Pardonne the fault. Against this, and other like foul Blasphemies Doctor Luther first began so speak. Now whether this occasion were sufficient, or no, let M. harding himself be the judge.  
We grant, the Princes, and Estates of the world have now laid their power to assist the Gospel. God's Holy Name therefore be blessed. How be it the Gospel came not first from them. It sprang up, and grew by them many wheres against their wills.  
Neither is the Gospel therefore the more to be suspected, because it hath entered into Prince's Courts. Daniel was in King Nabuchodonosors' Palace, and taught him to know the Living God. 
Philip. 1.  S: Paul rejoiced, and took comfort in his bands, for that there were some even in Nero's Court, that began to hearken to the Gospel. And Eusebius saith, Valeriani Aula erat iam Ecclesia Dei: Valerian the emperors Court was now become the Church of God. Athanasius saith unto the Emperor jovinian, Conueniens est Pio Principi, etc.: The Study and love of Godly things, 
Theod. li. 4. ca 3. cyril. in Epist. ad Theodos. & Valentinian.  is very meet for a Godly Prince. For so shall you surely have your heart ever more in the hand of God. Likewise saith S. Cyril to the emperors Theodosius and Valentinian: Ab ea, quae erga Deum est, pietate, Reipub. vestrae status pendet. The state, and assurance of your empire hangeth of your Religion towards God.  
So likewise saith Sozomenus of the Emperor Arcadius, 
Sozom. li. 9 ca 3.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  
Therefore it behooveth Princes to understand the cases of God's Religion, and to receive Christ with his Gospel into their Courts. 
Psal. 2. Esaie. 49.  For God hath ordained Kings, as the Prophet David saith, to serve the Lord: and, as isaiah saith, to be Nurses unto his Church.  
If there be occasions of vanities or wickedness in Princes Courses, yet is there no Court therein comparable to the Court of Rome. For there, S. Bernard saith, Mali proficiunt: boni deficiunt: The wicked wax: the godly wane.  
Ye strive in vain, M. harding: This Counsel is not of Man: it is of God. If Princes with theirs powers could not stay it, much less can you stay it with untruths and fables. The poor beguiled souls, of whom ye speak, are neither so seely, 
Act. 5.  nor so simple, but they are able to espy your follies. The Truth of God will stand: Vanity will fall of itself. Remember the Counsel of Gamaliel: Fight not against the Spirit of God.   

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 3.  
For they be not all mad at this day, so many Free Cities, so many Kings, so many Princes, which have fallen away from the Seat of Rome, and have rather joined themselves to the Gospel of Christ.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. hardings answer hereto is long: the effect thereof in short is this:  
The Faith of the Holy Roman Church, is the very Catholic Faith, which who so foresake, shallbe companions with Devils in everlasting fiere.  
And where ye say, so many Free Cities, so many Kings, I pray you, how many free Cities can you name, that have received your sacramentary Religion? Nay the Free Cities of Germany, as many as have forsaken the Catholic Church, do they not persecute you the Sacramentaries? But, say ye, they be fallen from the Seat of Rome. So be the Greeks also in a point or two: yet condemn they you for Heretics.  
Neither be all the Free Cities in all the Country of Germany fallen from the See apostolic. Of five parts of that great Country, at least two remain Catholic.  
Let us see, how make ye up the number of so many Kings, ye speak of? The Realms of England, and scotland, because by God's providence the Government of them is devolved to Women, for as much as they be no Kings, though they have the full right of Kings, of them I speak not. Now only two Christened Kings remain, the King of Denmark, and the King of sweden. Geate you now up into your pulpits like bragging cocks on the rowst: Flap your whinges, and crow out aloud, so many free Cities, so many Kings.  
But what think you of all the world before this day? Were all Cities, all Provinces, all Countries, all Kings, all Princes, etc. till Freer Luther came, and with his Nun told us a new Doctrine, and controlled all the old, were all these mad?  
The Virtuous men of the Society of jesus, have they not brought many Countries, many Kings, many Princes to the Faith of Christ by preaching the Doctrine of the Catholic Church? We will not follow your foolishness in boasting, etc. The Faith professed in the holy Roman Church, is now preached in Peru in the Kingdom of Ignamban, in the Kingdom of Monopotapa, in Cambaia, in Giapan, in Cina, in Tartaio, in Basnaga, in Taprobana, in Ormaz, in Ceilon, in Zimor, in Bacian, in Macazar.  
The Miracles wrought by these Holy Fathers which converted these Countries, I trow, ye will not account to be madness. Thus your vain boast in wickedness wrought by the power of Satan is put to silence, etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Faith of the Roman Church, 
Greeks.  saith M. harding, is the very Catholic Faith of Christ: which who so foresakethe, be he King or Emperor, he shallbe Companion with Devils in everlasting fire. Thus much, I trow, M. harding learned of the counterfeit Decree of Anacletus. For thus it pleaseth him to gloze, 
Anaclet. Epist. 1.  and interlace the words of Christ: Super hanc Petram, id est, Super Ecclesiam Romanam, aedificabo Ecclesiam meam: Upon this Rock, that is to say, Upon the Church of Rome, I will build my Church. And therefore Pope Bonifacius, for a full resolution of the matter saith thus: 
Extra. De Maior. &. Obedien, unam Sanctam. Glossa in eodem. Cap.  Subesse Romano Pontifici, omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, & pronuntiamus, omnino esse de necessitate salutis: We declare, say, determine, and pronounce, that it is of the necessity of Salvation for every mortal creature, to be subject unto the Bishop of Rome. And the Gloze likewise upon the same, Quicquid saluatur, est sub Summo Pontifice: What so ever creature is saved, is under the Highest Bishop. Here is no mention neither of Christ, nor of his Gospel. Salvation, & Damnation hangeth only of the B. of Rome. This thing once granted, the case is clear: The Pope himself hath resolved the doubt. What should we need a better trial? 
Cornelius Episc. Bitont. in Conci. Tridentino.  Notwithstanding Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the late Chapter at trident, of the Bishop, and Holy See of Rome saith thus, utinam à Religione ad Superstitionem, à Fide ad Infidelitatem, à Christo ad Antichristum, à Deo ad Epicurum velut prorsus vnanimes non declinassent, dicentes in cord impio, & ore impudico, Non est Deus: O would God (the Pope and his Cardinals) had not fall ●en with common consent, and altogether, from true Religion to Superstition, from Faith to Infidelity, from Christ to antichrist, from God to Epicure: saying with wicked heart, and shameless mouth, 
Psal. 14. Bernard. in Cantic. Canticor.  There is no God. In like sense, of the same Bishops, and See of Rome S. Bernard saith, servi Christi serviunt Antichristo: The Servants of Christ serve antichrist. Cornelius' saith, the Bishops of Rome are fallen to Superstition, to Infidelity, to antichrist, to Epicure: & are not ashamed to say, There is no God. Yet, saith M. harding, the Faith of Rome is the Catholic Faith: & who so departethe from the same, be he King or Emperor, he shallbe companion with the Devil in Helle fire. And thus to say, is no mere madness.  
That the Princes, and free Cities of Germany ever persecuted us, it is utterly untrue, and like the rest of your tales. They rejoice in God in our behalf: and being there, they received us under their protection, and offered us such freedom, and courtesy, as they seldom offered the like to any Nation. Certain of them by your own Confession, have already agreed to all the points of our Doctrine. But none of them all, no not one would ever suffer the same Doctrine of ours to be condemned.  
What the Grecians this day think of us, I cannot tell. notwithstanding it appeareth by their letters written purposely to the Churches of Bohemia, that they allow well of our Doctrine, and utterly condemn yours. For thus they writ unto them: 
Epist. Ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae ad Ecclesiam Pragensem. In Concil. Lateranen. Cap. 4.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Wherefore, loving Brethren, and Children, if it be so as we hear, and hope, make haste, that we may join together in Unity. And again, thus it is recorded in the late Council of Laterane, Graeci in tantum coeperunt abominari Latino's, ut si quando Sacerdotes Latini super eorum altaria celebrassent, ipsi non vellent priùs in illis sacrificare, quàm ea, tanquam per hoc inquinata lavissent: The Greeks began so much to abhor the Latins, that, if it had happened the Latin Priests had Ministered upon their altars, they would not afterward make oblation upon the same, before they had washed them: as thinking their Altars defiled by the latins handling. Wherefore, M. harding, what so ever the Grecians think of us, it appeareth hereby, they utterly refuse your Communion, & condemn you for Heretics.  
But who would have thought, M. harding had been so skilful in proportions? The whole country of Germany, saith he, being divided in equal portions, two of five remain still in the obedience of the See of Rome. We give God thanks, it is, as it is. In deed certain towns subject to the Bishops, in outward usage of their Churches, remain still, as they were before. Yet nevertheless where the Churches are Popish, the people of all sorts are Protestants, and love the Truth, and are much ashamed of your follies. It was God's secret providence, that certain of yours should remain amongst us a season, as the Canaanites remained amongst the people of Israel. Otherwise within few years ye would deny, that ever your disorders had been so great.  
It is very hard, and in manner not possible, to convert the whole people of so great a country all at once. The Hears of a man's Beard, or Head never wax white all together. 
Luc. 13.  Christ compareth the Kingdom of God unto Leaven, which the woman taketh, and layeth in a lump of dowgh. It worketh, and laboureth by 〈◊〉, and little, 
Eusebius.  until it have Leavened all the whole. In this sort Eusebius séeme●● to compare the two parts of the Roman Empire dissenting in judgement of Religion: the East part to the Night, and the west to the Day. 
johan. 12. 1. Corin. 15.  But Christ will draw all unto himself: and then shall God be all in al.  
But here to match our so many Kings, and so many Princes, M. harding hath brought us a many of news out of Ignamban, Monopotapa, Cambaia, Giapan, Bisnaga, Ormoz, and other strange, and far Countries. There, he saith, so many, and so many Kings, and Princes are lately Converted, and brought to the obedience of the See of Rome. I marvel, he saith not, the Man in the Moon was likewise newly Christened, to make up the Muster.  
How be it all these things must needs be true. For Christ's own Fellows, or, as M. harding uttereth it in better wise, the Holy Fathers of the Society of jesus, have sent home word as well hereof, as also of sundry Miracles wrought by the same Holy Fathers. Verily, so the name of Christ be published, whether it be by them, or by us, by Light, or by Darkness, God's Holy name be blessed. But of many their Miracles I have no skill. For thus these Holy Fathers write, as it is said before, that with Holy Water they have driven Mice out of the country, 
Copus Dialo. c. Pa. 18. Alexander de Hales, par. 4. quaes. 53. mem. 4. Ar. 3. solut. 2. Nicola. Lyra in Daniel. Ca 14.  and made Barren Women to bear Children, and such other the like marvelous Miracles. Neither are we bound of necessity to believe all such Miracles what so ever, without exception. Alexander of Hales saith, In Sacramento apparet Caro, interdum humana procuratione, interdum operatione Diabolica: In the Sacrament itself there appeareth Flesh, sometime by the conuciance of men, sometime by the working of the Devil. Likewise saith Nicolaus Lyra, Aliquando in Ecclesia fit maxima deceptio Populi in Miraculis fictis à Sacerdotibus, vel eis adhaerentibus, propter lucrum: Sometime even in the Church the People is shamefully deceived with feigned Miracles wrought either by the Priests, or else by their companions, for lukers, sake. Miracles be not evermore undoubted proofs of True Doctrine. 
Augusti contra Faust Li. 13.  Therefore S. Augustine saith unto Faustus the Manichee: Miracula non facitis: quae si faceretis, tamen ipsa in vobis caveremus: Ye work no Miracles: and yet if ye wrought any, at your hands we would take heed of them. 
Hieremi. 23.  The Prophet Hieremie saith, Seduxerunt Populum meum in mendacijs suis, & in Miraculis suis: They have deceived my People by their Lies, and by their Miracles.  
touching the Conversion of the east India, Vesputius writeth, there were many Godly Bishops there, 
Vesputius.  and sundry whole countries Converted, and Christened, long before that either the Portugals, or the Jesuits came thither: and yet had never heard of the name of the Bishop of Rome.  
As for the rest of the West Spanish Indies, the People there lived not only without all manner knowledge of God, but also wild, and naked, without any Civil government. 
petr Martyr Mediolanen.  offering up men's bodies in Sacrifice▪ drinking men's blood, and eating men's flesh. Some of them worshipped the Son, and the Moon: some, an ancient old Tree: some, what so ever they saw first in the morning, they thought the same for that day to be their God. Some worshipped certain familiar Devils, and unto them Sacrificed young boys, and girls.  
Being in this miserable state, and naturally by the very sense, and judgement of common reason abhorring and lothinge their own blindness, what marvel is it, if they were easy to be lead into any Religion, specially carrieing● such a show of apparel, and Holy Ceremonies?  
So the great King of Tartary of late, 
Vesputius in Novo Orb, fo. 485.  finding himself and his people without any manner Religion, was contented to borrow some Religion of the Turks. For men would rather cloth themselves with leaves, and barks, then to go quite naked: and rather eat Akecornes, then die for hunger.  
And what if God would use this mean for the time, after ward the better to lead the said nations to the clear Light of the Gospel, as ●. Augustine saith, the shoemaker useth his bristle not to sew withal, but to draw 〈◊〉 his thread? No doubt, M. harding, if your Doctrine, and ours were laid together, the very Indians themselves, be they never so rude, would be able to see. a great difference.  
But let the Bishop of Rome win abroad, and lose at home. You remember the old Proverb. Dionysius Corinthi. Dionysius when he had lost his Kingdom at home at Syracuse, he got himself to Corinthe, and there became a Schoolmaster, and so seemed to continue a Kingdom still.  
We make no boast, M. harding, nor grate us to row'st, as ye say, nor ●lappe our wings in the behalf of these Princes, and Countries, so many, and so many, as it pleaseth you to sport, that have submitted themselves to the Gospel of Christ. Neither are the same, so many, and so many, so sew as you would seem to make them. The Kingdom of England, the Kingdom of Scotland, the Kingdom of Denmark, the Kingdom of Sweden: the Dukes of Saxony, the Duke of Brunswike, the Palsgrave of Rhine, the Duke of Wirtenberg, the landgrave of Hessia, the Marquis of Brandeburg, the Prince of Russia, all other the Earls, and noble men, and great cities through the whole country of Germany, the mighty common weals of Helvetia, Rhetia, Vallis Tellina, with so many hundred thousands besides in France, Italy, Spain, Hungary, and in the Kingdom of Poole: Certainly all these well reckoned cannot seem so ●ewe, as ye would have it. Yewisse, M. harding, it grieveth you full ●ore, they are so many. If God of his mercy bless those things. that he hath mercifully begun. it willbe high time for you shortly to seek a new refuge.  
We boast not ourselves of these things. There is no cause It is not the work of man: it is the only hand of God. David saith, Let the heavens rejoice: let the Earth be glad: 
Psal. 19  The voice (of the Apostles) is sounded abroad into all the world: 
Luc. 2.  The Angels of God sang, 
Apocalyp. 19  Glory be to God on high: 
Tertull. contra judeos.  The Angel in the Apocalyps crieth amain, Cecidit, cecidit Babylon illa magna: Down, down is fallen that great Babylon: Tertullian saith, Parthi, Medi, Elamitae, etc. The Parthians, the Medians, the Elamites, the people of Mesopotamia, of Armenia, of Phrygia, of Cappadocia, of Pontus, of Asia, of Pamphilia, of Egypt, of Aphrica, of Rome, of H●●rusalem, of Getusia, of Mauritania, of Spain, of France, of Britanny, of Sarmatia, of D●cia, of Germany, of Scythia and many other nations, and Provinces, known▪ and unknown h●ue received the Gospel of Christ. Thus said they, the Angels, & Prophets of God, & Holy Fathers, and yet without boasting, or fléeinge to row'st, or clapping of whinges. give us leave therefore, M. harding, in the like case to solace ourselves with the consition of God's mighty, and merciful works, and humbly to rejoice at the triumph of the Cross of Christ.  
Arnobius saith unto the Heathens: Ne nobis de nostra frequentia blandiamut. Multi nobis videmur: sed Deo admodùm pauci sumus. Nos gentes nationesque distinguimus: Deo una Domus est mundus hic totus: Let us not flatter ourselves of our great multitudes. 
Arnobius contra Gentes l●. 8.  Unto ourselves we seem many: but unto God we are but few. We put difference between Nation, and Nation: But unto God this whole world is but one house. This counsel, M. harding, is wholesome for either part to follow, that who so will rejoice, may rejoice in the Lord.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 4.  
And although the Popes had never hitherunto leisure to consider diligently and earnestly of these matters, or though some other cares do now let them, and divers ways pull them, or though they count these to be but common and trieflinge studies, and nothing to appertain to the Pope's worthiness, this maketh not why our matter ought to seem the worse. Or if they perchance will not see that, which they see in deed, but rather will withstand the known Cruthe, ought we therefore by and by to be counted Heretics, because we obey not their will and pleasure?  

M. harding.  
Sith Christ hath given to the Pope in Peter, 
johan. 22.  whose lawful successor hè is, commission to feed his Sheep: Wholesome feeding being th'end of that commission, it is not to be doubted, but he that ordained th'end, hath also ordained means belonging to th'end. Therefore it is not the duty of a good and humble sheep, to give forth a malicious surmise, that the shepherd will not see that he seeth in deed, but rather will withstand the known Truth. And what so ever sheep be disobedient, and refuse to hear the voice of their shepherd, whom Christ hath made over them, the same be not of Christ's fold. And maintaining contrary Doctrine to their shepherds true Doctrine. justly may they be accounted Heretics.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
To be Peter's lawful Successor, it is not sufficient to leap into Peter's stalle. lawful Succession standeth not only in possession of place, but also, and much rather in Doctrine and Diligence. Yet the Bishops of Rome, as if there were nothing else required, evermore put us in mind, and tell us many gay tales of their Succession, Pope Symmachus saith, In Papa si desint bona acquisita per meritum, 
Distin. 40. Non nos.  sùfficiunt quae à loci Praedecessore praestantur: 
Glosa ibid. in verb. Cùm Haereditatem.  If the Pope want vertunes, 
Dis. 40. Non est facile.  and goodness of his own, 
Alphonsus Contra. Hares. L.  yet the virtues that are given him by (Peter) his predecessor, 
1. cap. 9  are sufficient. And the Gloze upon the same: Petrus fecit Papam haeredem bonitatis suae: Peter hath made the Pope Heir of his goodness.  
But S. Jerome saith far otherwise: Non sanctorum filii sunt, qui tenent loca sanctorum: They be not evermore Holy men's Children, that sit in the rooms of Holy men. Likewise saith Alphonsus de Castro, a special assistant of that side, Quamuis teneamur●●x Fide credere, verum Petri Successorem esse Supremum totius Ecclesiae Pastorem, tamen non tenemur eadem Fide credere, Leonem, aut Clementem esse verum Petri Successorem: Notwithstanding we be bound by Faith to believe, that the true Successor of Peter is the highest Shepherd of the whole Church: yet are we not bound by the same Faith to believe, that Leo, or Clement (being Eishoppes of Rome) are the true Successors of Peter.  
The words, 
johan. 20  that Christ spoke unto Peter, import no sovereignty, but were common to all the rest. 
Head Shepherd.  S. Cyprian saith, Hoc erant utique coeteri Apostoli, quod fuit Petrus, pari cosortio praediti & Honoris, & Potestatis: 
Cyprian. de simplicita. praelato.  The rest of the Apostles were even the same, that Peter was, a● endued with like fellowship both of Honour. and of Power. What special privilege than can the Pope claim by the Succession of S. Peter? Or what talketh he of feeding the whole flock of Christ, that never feedeth any part thereof? wherein is the Pope like S. Peter? or wherein ever was S. Peter like the Pope?  
Yet M. harding doubteth not to give his Definitive Sentence, what so ever Sheep is not obedient to the Headshepheard, is not of the flock of Christ. The Pope also himself boldly warranteth the same. Thus he saith of himself, Quicunque praeceptis nostris non obedierit, 
Dist. 81. si qui sunt: In glosa.  peccatum Idololatriae, & Paganitatis incurrit: Who so ever obeyeth not our commandments, falleth into the sin of Idolatry, and infidelity. And therefore Pope Stevin thus avanceth the authority of his own See: Sacrosancta Domina nostra Romana Ecclesia: 
Dist. 79. Opor●ebat.  Our Holy Lady the Church of Rome. 
johan. 10.   
But Christ speaking of himself saith, 
Luc. 6.  I am the True Shepherd: And, 
Galat. 2.  Who so heareth these words of mine. and doth the same. I will liken him to a wise man. S. Paul being but one of the sheep, saith thus, I withstood Peter (as M. harding saith, the Head shepherd) even unto his face, for that he walked not uprightly to the Gospel of Christ. Yet was he a sheep of the flock of Christ. Hostiensis in this case seemeth reasonable: 
De concess. praebendae. Proposuit. Hostien. De Rescriptis. Si quando. ver. Sed nunquid.  His words be these Omnes debent obedi●e Papae, quicquid praecipiat: nisi sequi possit peccatum: All men must obey the Pope, what so ever he command: so there follow no sin of his commandment. Likewise Feliws a notable canonist: Non obstante Plenitudine Potestatis, quae est in Papa, non est obediendum ei, peccato imminente: notwithstanding the fullness of power, that is in the Pope, when sin shall follow his biding, we may not obey him.  
If the Pope will claim the Headpast ourship over the whole flock of Christ, or rather if he willbe taken for any Pastor at all, let him then feed the Flock: Let him break the bread of Life, without Leaven: Let him speak the word of God truly, without fables: and we will hear him. Otherwise S. Augustine hath warned us: 
Augusti. in johan. tracta. 46.  Sua si docere velint, ●olite audire, nolite facere. Certè enim tales sua quaerunt: non quae sunt jesu Christi: If they will teach you Doctrines of their own, see, ye hear them not: (and what so ever such thing they command you) see, ye do it not. For undoubtedly such men se●ke for their own matters: and not the things that pertain to Jesus Christ.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 6.  
If so be that Pope Pius were the man (we say not, which he would so gladly be called) but if he were in deed a man, that either would account us for his brethren, or at least would take us to be men, he would first diligently have examined our reasons, and would have seen, what might be said with us, what against us: & would not in his Bull, whereby he lately pretended a Council, so rashly have condemned so great a part of the world, so many Learned & Godly men, so many common wealths, so many Kings, & so many Princes, only upon his own blind preiudices & foredeterminations, & that without hearing of them speak, or without showing cause why.  

M. harding.  
Speak of Pope Pius, what ye will, and what ye can. Neither your praise can advance his estimation, nor your dispraise abase it. His singular virtues be well known. God is highly to be praised for that he hath provided for his flock so good a shepherd. As for you, as ●e taketh you to be men, so not his brethren, because ye have cut of yourselves from the Catholic church. Your reasons have been diligently and exactly examined already. 
A comparison between the Defenders and Balsasar King of Babylon. No good wrought by reasoning with Heretics.  In respect of your reasons Learning, and Holy Scriptures which ye bring, ye are found such as Balsasar King of Babylon ●as signified by the hand, that appeared writing before him in the wall.  
What it is, Heretics to be admitted to reasoning, it is and hath been evermore too well known. Be they never so thoroughly confuted, they yield not. Overcome they may be, reformed th●● will not be. Therein no good lightly is done.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If Pope Pius w●te so good 〈◊〉, who so, 〈…〉 thy a Passout for the Church of God, why then did his Cat dwells of thee 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 by treason, and conspiracy to oppose him, 〈…〉 you say▪ so good a man▪ 〈…〉 it were not so, 
Oratio Pij Papae.  why then did he himself 〈◊〉 thereof so utterly in ●n Oration pronounced openly in Rome in the Consist●●te▪ Is it not lawful for so good a man to live in Rome? Is the same Proclamation now practised among the Cardinals in Rome, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  that was sometime used in the Council house at Ephesus, Nemo nostrum frugi esto. Let no good man be emongste us:  
Ye safe. Pope Pius would not vouchsafe to call us his Brethren. No marvel, seeing his own dèere, and first begotten Children the Cardinals would no longer have him to be their Father. 
Mattha e. 28.  It is sufficient for us, 
johan. 20.  that Christ the Son of God is content to call us his Brethren.  
Ye have Excommunicate us, as the Ph●riseis did the Apostles, because we speak unto you in the name of Christ. But your own Law saith, Excommunica●us non poiest Excommunicate: He that is Excommunicate himself, cannot give Sentence to Excommunicate others: 
11. Quae. 3. Cui est illata.  And your own Gelasius saith. 
Mala. 2.  Neminem ligate debet iniqua Sententia: A wicked Sentence (of Excommunication) bindeth noman. But before all others God himself saith, Ego Benedicam Maledictionibus vestris: I will Bless, that you Curse, saith the Lord. You say, you have weighed our Reasons, and have found them too light. Now surely that is a good Light answer. Even in such Light sort julianus the Apostata wrote sometime unto the Christian Bishops: 
Sozomen. li. ●. Cap. 18.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: I have read your reasons: I know them well enough: and therefore I have condemned them. But the same Christian Bishops answered him again, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. It may be, ye have read our reasons: but ye understood them not. For if ye understood them, ye would not condemn them. 
1. Corin. 2.  As S. Paul also likewise saith, Nam si cognovissent, nunquam Dominum Gloriae crucifixissent: If they had known, they would never have Crucified the Lord of Glory.  
But unto many of your side, M. harding, I fear me we may over truly say as S. Hilary saith unto the Arian Heretics: 
Hilar. De Synodis adversus Arianos.  Verè Deum nesciunt: atque utinam n●scirent: Cum procliviori enim venia ignorarent: In deed they know not God: and would God they kn●w him not: Then their ignorance were the easier to be pardoned.  
You say, There is no Disputation to be had with Heretics. Yet your Fathers in the Council of Basile, 
Council Basil. Concil. Trident.  and your Friends in the last Council of Trident, I will not say, had Disputations, but certainly yielded, and gave place unto the Bohemiens, & unto such others, as you call Heretics. But ye have reason: ye can foresee your best advantage. It were the readiest way to disclose your shame You never yet càme to Disputation, but some of your company shrank away from you, As I before have reported out of Tertullian: 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  Veritas nihil veretur, 
1. Regum. 5.  nisi abscondi: Truth feareth nothing, but lest she be hid. If the God of Israel come into the Temple, the Idol of Dagon must needs fall down.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 1.  
But because he hath already so noted us openly, lest by holding our peace we should seem to grant a fault, and specially because we can by no means have audience in the Public assembly of the General Council, wherein he would no creature should have power to give his voice, or to declare his opinion, except he were sworn, and straightly bound to maintain his Authority: For we have had good experience hereof, in the last Conference at the Council of Irident: where the Ambassadors & Divines of the Princes of Germany, and of the free Cities, were quite shut out from their company. Neither can we yet forgeate, how julius the third, above ten years past, provided warily by his writ, that none of our fort should be suffered to speak in the Council, except that there were some man peradventure, that would recant, & change his opinion. For this cause chief we thought it good, to yield up an account of our Faith in writing, & truly and openly to make answer to those things, wherewith we have been openly charged: to the end the world may see the parts & foundations of that Doctrine, in the behalf whereof so many good men have little regarded their own lives. And that all men may understand what manner of people they be, & what opinion they have of God & of Religion, whom the Bishop of Rome, before they were called to tell their tale, hath condemned for Heretics, without any good consideration, without any example, and utterly without Law or right: only because he heard tell, that they did dissent from him and his in some point of Religion.  

M. harding.  
Ye allege t'woo causes, The first is, lest by holding your peace, ye should seem to grant a fault. The second, 
Two causes of making the Apology.  which ye make more specially because by no means ye could have audience in the late general Council. Your second cause is false, as hereafter it shallbe showed. Your first is nought, as that which showeth your pride, vain glory, and pertinacy. Well. ye do but as Heretics before you have ever done. It must not be looked for at your hands, 
I● Counsels any man may show his opinion, but none may give a voice, or suffrage, and Sentence Definitive, but only Bishops.  that ye acknowledge any fault. For that were Humility, which virtue all Heretics be far from etc. To give a voice or suffrage, and utter Sentence definitive it pertaineth only to Bishops. Now ye be no Bishops, but some of you mere lay men, and most of you Apostates.  
Whether the Ambassadors and Divines of the Princes of Getmanie and of the free Cities there. were at any time upon any consideration of their misliked demeanour, or for any other just cause restrained from the company of the Fathers in the late general Council at Tren●: Again whether Pope julius the third provided by any writ that none of your sort should be suffered to speak in the Council, the cause of recantation excepted: what ye say touching this matter, because ye say it without proof. We have found you in so many other points of greater importance so far to step aside from truth. that for this we cannot believe you. But that yourselves by no means could have audience in the Council at Trent, and that the Ambassadors and Divines of the Princes and free Cities of Germany were from thence quite shut out: 
Three safe Conduits granted An account of faith by the Defenders yielded up in writing, without due order in all respects.  how true that is. I report me to the three safe conducts. which the three Popes, under whom that Council was holden, granted forth and confirmed in that behalf. Wherefore bely the council no more, complaining that ye could not there have audience and be heard.  
Ye yield up an account of your faith in writing, ye say. But to whom do ye yield it up? and by whom is it yielded? from whom cometh the same? Do ye acknowledge no lawful ●udge, no lawful consiliorie in the whole world? Commit ye your whole matter to the temerity of the people? Why have ye not set your names to the Book, that containeth the profession of your faith, and of your whole conscience.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding thought it answer sufficient, to upbraid us with suspicion of Untruthe. How be it I have no doubt, but both the Truth, and the Untruthe by the particulares will soon appear.  
First, that all Bishops, having voice Definitive, and interest in Councils, are solemnly sworn in all their Decrees, & Canons to uphold the Authority of the Pope, he thought it the wisest way to dissemble it. For it had been great want of modesty, to deny it. The form of the oath recorded in the Pope's own decretals, 
Extra. De jureiuran. Ego N.  is this; Ego N. etc. Papa●um Romanae Ecclesiae, & regulas Sanctorum Patrum adiutor no ad defendendum, & retinendun, saluo ordine meo, contra omnes homines: IN. swear, that I willbe an helper, to defend, and maintain the Papacy of the Church of Rome, and the Rules of the Holy Fathers (the Popes) mine own order saveds, against ol men alive. But these Rules, & Privileges of the Holy Fathers the Popes are these: 
a Extra. de Elect. & Electi potest. Singificasti.  That the Pope is above all General councils: 
b Extra. de transta. Episcopi, Quanto: In gloss.  That his bare will must be holden as a law: 
c Extra. de Concess. Praben. Proposuit. In gloss.  That, what so ever he do, noman may say unto him, why do you thus: 
d Pighius. Li. 6. Cap. 13.  That his judgement is more certain, than the judgement of all the world: 
e 9 q. 3. Nemo. In glossa.  That if the whole world give Sentence in any matter contrary to the Pope's pleasure, yet it seemeth, we are bound to stand to the judgement of the Pope: &, 
f M. harding, Fol. 334. b.  as M. harding saith, That the Pope, what so ever he say, or do, as being Pope, can never err, These, & other the like be the Privileges, that the Pope claimeth unto himself. All which the Bishops are bound by oaths. & by their allegiance to defend against all men alive.  
Now, where you say, that Bishops only have Sentence Definitive in the Council, ye seem willingly, & without cause to report Untruthe. For Pius Secundus being himself a Pope, would have told you the contrary. These be his words: 
g Aeneas Sylui. de gestis Concil. Constantien. Li. 1.  Apparet, alios, quam Episcopos, in Concilijs habuisse vocem decidentem: It is plain, that certain others beside Bishops, had voice Definitive in the Councils. Likewise saith Gerson. 
h johan. Gerson, Quae veritates sint Credendae. Corol. 4.  Etiam ad Laicos hoc potest extendi: & plus aliquando, quàm ad multos Clericorun: This (Privilege of giving Sentence in Council) may be extended even unto y●●aye sort: yea and that oftentimes better then unto many Priests. But here of hereafter 〈◊〉 at large.  
But whether we be Bishops or no, M. Harding is no competent, nor indisserent judge. For 
i Sallust. in bell● Catiline.  who so will judge uprightly, must be void of anger, hatred love, envy, & other like affections. Which Sentence being otherwise profane, is used & hallowed by the apostolic Legates in the 
k Concil. Iriden. sub Paulo. 3.  Council of Trident: Surely the Godly say, that, as your Bishops do no part of bishops duty, & therefore in deed are no Bishops at all: so your late covent at Trident, what so ever glorious name it pleaseth you to give it, yet notwithstanding, in deed, & verily was no Council.  
Whether Pope julius by his Bulie utterly embarred the Divines, & Ambassadors of the Princes, and free Cities of Germany from all audience, & Disputation in the Council, or no, I report me to Pope julius own bull touching the same. His words be these, 
Breve julij. 3. Citatur à Caluino.  Eri● Concilium, ut qui temerè locuti sunt, aut dicta recantat●●i veniant, aut eorum maudita causa, in executionem iam ordinatarum. Constitutionun Haeretici declarentur, & condemnenturi There shallbe a Council, that they th●● have spoken rashly, either may recant their sayings, or else without farther hearing, or reasoning of the matter, they may be denounced and condemned for Heretics, according to the Constitutions already mode.  
Likewise saith john Sleidane, 
johan Sleidan.  touching the Conference had some time at Augusta: 
Lib. 13.  In Colloquio frequenter ad initium actionis hoc dicebantinolle se vel tantillum de Opinion, & Doctrina sua decedere: sed quicquid facerent, eo fieri, ut in sententiam suàm nos adducerent: In the Conference that was had between us, and them, they told us at the first. that they would not yield one whit, from their Opinion, and Doctrine: But that, what so ever they did, they did it only to the intent, to bring us to their Judgement.  
I could farther allege Mathias Flacius Illyricus, johannis Fabritius Montanus, Petrus Paulus Vergerius the Bishop of justinopolis, to like purpose. But perhaps M. harding would refuse their Authorities, & call them partial. Yet in a matter so evident, & so openly known, it had been great folly for them to dissemble. Illyricus saith, 
Illyri. in Recusatione Con. Tritini.  Nostri audiri non potuerunt, quamuis id Amplissimi Caesaris Legati Orarent: Our Divines, and Orators could is no wise be heard, notwithstanding the emperors most worthy Ambassadors had desired it. johannes Fabritius saith, 
Council of Trident.  Fateor extensionem fuctam esse ad alias nationes: 
johan. Fabriti.  Sed tamen additur, eam formam non nisi ad illos pertine●e, qui resipiscere, & ad Ecclesiae gremium redire velint: I grant, the Save conduit was extended to other Nations: But it is added withal, that the same form, or liberty should pertain to none others, but only to them, that would reperte, and return to the bosom of the Church, And again he saith, Tantum aburant ab A●ce Disputation, ut ne ad vestibulum quidem accedere potuerint: The Divines of the Princes of Germany were kept so for of from the high castle of Disputation, that they could not be suffered to approach to the entry. 
Petr. Paulus Nergerius De Council Trident  Petrus Paulus Uergerius saith, that the Bishop of Uegla in Dalmatia was 〈◊〉 shaken up in the same 〈◊〉, and threatened with Deprivation, and other extremities, only for a little inkling of the Truth.  
Now d● it, what 〈…〉 Authorities? Noman is herein so plain and 〈…〉, 
M. Hard fo. 20.  M. harding himself. 
M. H. fo. 〈◊〉. b.  This is his determinate answer, 
M. H. fo. 174. a.  and full resolution in the case: 
M. H. fo. 333. b.  Your reason 〈◊〉 no more to be heard, unless ye repent, and 〈◊〉 your errors▪ Again, Our doctrine hath been approved too longeth be put a 〈◊〉 in these days. Again, ●●●●che wicked 〈◊〉, as ye have made ie, it is lanful, to make, neither 〈…〉 Council, not without Council. Again, we tell you, that your change of religion, and 〈…〉 Heresies ought not be have been 〈◊〉, nor without the Bishop of 〈◊〉 commanndement, nor with his commandment. These be your words, M. harding: This you say, you tell us plainely●and therefore, I trow, we must believe you. And so ye seem to conclude with the words written in the P●●yhete Hieremie: 
Hieremi. 44  Non audiemus Verbum, quod loquissus es nobis in nomine Domini sed faciendo faciemus omne verbum, quod egredietur ex o●e nost●●: We will not bear the Word, that thou hast spoken to us in the name of the Lord: But we will do every Word, that shall come from our own mouth.  
Was may therefore say of you, 
Augustin. Epis●ola. ●52.  〈…〉 Augustine sometimes said of the Heretics the Donatists: Cùm omnis 〈◊〉 suspensa expectares, in tanta collectione quid 〈…〉 ageretu●: Quare hoc? nisi quia causam suam malam sciebant, & facillime se posse conuin●i, si ageretur, dubitare non poterant? When every body was looking carefully, what should be done in so great Assembly, they (The Donatists Heretics) laboured what they could, that nothing utterly should be done. And why for They knew●theire cause was n●ught: and could not doubt, but that if any conference, or Disputation should be had, they should soon be reproved.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 2.  
And although S. Jerome would have no body to be patiented when he is suspected of Heresy, yet we will deal herein neither bitterly, nor brablingly, nor yet be carried away with anger & heat: though he ought to be reckoned neither bitter, nor brabbler that speaketh the Truth. We willingly leave this kind of eloquence to our Adversaries, who, what so ever they say against us, be it never so shrewdly or despitefully said, yet think, it is said modestly & comely enough, & care nothing whether it be true, or false. We need none of these shifts, which do maintain the Truth. Further, if we do show it plainly that Gods Holy Gospel, the Ancient Bishops, and the Primitive Church do wake on our side, & that we have not without just cause left these men, & rather have returned to the Apostles & old Catholic Fathers: And i● we shallbe found to do the same, not colourably or craftily, but in good Faith before GOD, Truly, Honestly, Clearly, and Plainly: and if they themselves which fly our Doctrine, and would be called Catholics, shall manifestly see, how all these titles of Antiquity, whereof they boast so much, are quite shaken out of their hands, and that there is more pith in this our cause, than they thought for: we then hope and trust that none of them will be so negligent & careless of his own Salvation, but he will at length study & bethink himself, to whether part he were best to join him. Undoubtedly except one will altogether harden his heart, and refuse to hear, he shall not repent him to give good heed to this our Defence, and to mark well, what we say, and how truly and justly it agreeth with Christian Religion.  

M. harding.  
I see well, we must look to your fingers. Ye spit forth your gall, and choler by and by at the first. Through your whole Book in word ye pretend Truth, zeal, plainness, and sober dealing: But in deed power out little other then Lying, Spite, Scoffs, and immoderate railing. The effect of the rest in this: Ye have joined yourselves to the synagogue of antichrist. Ye serve the stage, ye have begonnt to play your Tragedy on falsely, shamefully, darkly, and guilefully: your brags, and promises, your cracks of God's Holy word, your errors, your Heresies, your contagious poison, your slanders, your new Cleregies Doctrine, etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The saying of S. Jerome is avouched by the like saying of Ruffinus an Ancient writer. Thus he saith. unam notam Haereseos qui dissimulat, non est Christianus: Who so dissembleth, when he is called Heretic, is no Christian man. For the rest blame me not, good Christian Reader, if I use no more words, than need requireth. If I thought it worthy the while, I could answer all these things more at large. I trust, in our whole Apology there appeareth no such immoderate kind of railing. But if I should follow M. hardings humour, and write but the one half of that he writeth, than perhaps I might worthily be called a railer.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 2.  
For where they call us Heretics, it is a crime so heinous, that unless it may be seen, unless it may be felt, & in manner may be holden with hands & fingers, it ought not lightly to be judged or believed, when it is laid to the charge of any Christian. For Heresy is a forsaking of Salvation, a renouncing of God's Grace, a departing from the Body and Spirit of Christ.  

M. harding.  
The Definition ye seem to make of Heresy, is not sufficient. For as ye define it, so every deadly sin is Heresy. 
The Defenders Definition of Heresy found insufficient. The true Definition of Heresy.  For every deadly sin is a forsaking of Salvation, a renouncing of God's Grace, a departing from the Body and Spirit of Christ. Heresy is a false Doctrine against the right belief, by him that professeth the Faith stubbournly either avouched or called in doubt. In which Definition this word, stubbournly, is added, because it is not error only in those things that be of Faith, but stubbournes in error, that maketh an Heretic, as S. Augustine teacheth. Who (saith he) in the Church of Christ saver any thing that is unwholesome and crooked, if being sharply admonished to saver that is hole and right, they resist stubbournly, and will not amend their venomous and deadly Doctrines, but stand to defend them, the● be Heretics. But now the law of upright dealing specially in God's cause so requiring, 
Lib. 18. de Ciui● Dei, cap. 51.  ye must pardon us. if, as among husbandmen we call a rake, a rake, a spade, a spade, a mattock, a mattock: so among Divines, we call Heresy, heresy, and likewise, falsehood, lying, slandering, craft, hypocrisy, Apostasy, malice. blasphemy, every such crime, by his proper name without all glozing.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Ye say, This is not the right Definition of Heresy. Verily, M. harding, this is but a simple quarrel. It was not my mind in this place to utter any Definition of Heresy, either right, or wrong. You know right well, that such curiosity in this kind of writing is not needful. It is sufficient, our words be true, although they include no Definition.  
For just proof of Heresy three things necessarily are required. First, that it be an error: Secondly, that it be an error against the Truth of God's word: For otherwise every error maketh not an Heresy. Thirdly, that it be stoutly, and wilfully maintained. Otherwise an error in God's Truth without wilful maintenance, is not an Heresy. S. Augustine saith, Errare possum, Haereticus esse non possum: 
Augustinus.  In an error I may be: but an Heretic I cannot be.  
It was not so necessary in this matter, so precisely to seek up Definitions. I thought it sufficient, only to declare the horror of Heresy. For as touching the Definition, S. Augustine saith, Quid sit Haeresis, regulari quadam Definitione comprehendi, sicut ego existimo, aut omnino non potest, 
Augustin. ad Quoduultdeum  aut difficillim● potest: To express by orderly Definition, what thing maketh an Heretic, as I judge, it is either impossible, or very hard. Therefore you, M. harding, and your fellows are the more blame worthy, for that of every your fantasies ye have made an Heresy. Ludovicus vives one of your own School thus complaineth thereof: 
Ludovicus vives De Corrupt. Artib  Haeresis nomen rebus levissimis impingitur: 
Dis. 22. Omnes.  Idem facerent Scotistae de Thomistis, nisi Scholarum consuetudo aures emollivisses: The name of Heresy is laid upon every light matter. So would the Scotistes handle the Thomists: saving that the custom of the Schools hath brought their ears in ure. Thus Pope Nicolas saith, Qui Romanae Ecclesiae Privilegium auferte conatur, hic procul dubio labi●ur in Haeresim: Who so ever goeth about to abrogate the privilege of the Church of Rome, be no doubt is an Heretic.  
That ye speak of stubbornness in defence of Heresy, I pray God, M. harding, it do not over near touch yourself. I pray God, you do not wilfully defend that thing, wherein you know, and see manifest, and open error. Verily S. Jerome saith: 
●4. Quaest. 3. Haeresis est.  Quicunque aliter Scripturam intelligit, quàm sensus Spiritus Sancti flagitat, quo scripta est, licet ab Ecclesia non recesserit, tamen Haereticus appellari potest: Who so ever expoundeth the Scriptures otherwise, than the sense of the Holy Ghost, by whom they were written, doth require, although he be not yet departed from the Church, yet may he well be called an Heretic. Likewise the old Father Tertullian saith: Quicquid contra veritatem sapit, Haeresis est, etiam vetus Consuetudo: What so ever thing ●●uoureth against the Truth, 
Tertull. de virginib. velandis. Vdalri●us Augustanus Ipiscopus ad Nicola. Papam.  it is an Heresy, be it never so much an old custom. 
Hilari. de Trinitate, Li. 6.   
Likewise your Tyrannical and filthy restraining of priests lawful marriage, Vdalricus the Bishop of August a calleth Periculosum Haeresis Decretum: A dangerous Decree of Heresy.  
Now touching simple error, and wilful defence, S. Hilary saith, Illis in eo, quod nesciunt, potest adhuc in tuto esse salus, si credant: Tibi verò iam omnia ad salutem clausa sunt, qui negas, quod iam ignorare no● potes: They, for so much as they know not the Truth, may have their salvation in safety, if afterward they believe: But all hope of health is shut from thee, for as much as thou deniest that thing, that thou canst not choose but know.  
To conclude, unto you, M. harding, who oftentimes of small errors, oftentimes of undoubted, & known Truths▪ without regard of Definition have fancied great, 
Alphonsus de Castro de H●re. Li. 1. Ca 7.  & horrible Heresies, Alphonsus de Castro a Doctor of your own saith thus: Idcirco sit, ut high, qui tam leviter de Haeresi pronunciant, non expendentes de qua re loquantur, saepe sua ipsorum sagitta feriantur, incidantque in eam foveam, quam alijs parabant. Nam velle humanas Scripturas in Divinarum ordinem connumerare, hoc veriùs ego dixerim Haeresim: quod faciunt high, qui humanis Scriptis diffentire impium autumant, perinde ac Divinis: There fore it happeneth, that they, that so rashly pronounce, and call every thing Heresy, not considering whereof they speak, be often stricken with their own dart, and fall into the same pit, that themselves have digged for others. For this would I rather call Heresy, to account men● writings amongs the Scriptures of God. So do they, that think it a wicked matter to dissent from the writings of man, nolesse, then if it were the Judgement of God.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 3.  
But this was ever an old and solemn property with them & their forefathers: if any did complain of their errors and faults, and desired to have true Religion restored, straight way to condemn such for Heretics, as men new-fangled, and factious. Christ for no other cause was called a Samaritane, but only for that he was thought to have fallen to a certain new Religion, and to be the author of a new sect. And Paul the Apostle of Christ, was called before the judges, 
Act. 24.  to make answer to a matter of Heresy: and therefore he said: according to this way, which they call Heresy, I do worship the God of my Fathers, believing allthings which be written in the Law, and in the Prophets.  

M. harding.  
If ye mean Hus, Jerome of Prague, Wickle●, Almaricke, Abailard, the apostolics, Peterbrusians, Berengarians, 
The Defenders predecessors  Waldenses, Albingenses, image-breakers, or such like, which ever found fault with the Church in their time, and cried for a restoring of Religion, as though it had been quite lost, and would themselves have the glory of it by bringing in their Heresy in place of the Catholic Doctrine, under the name of God's word, which hath always been the property of all Heretics: if, I say, ye mean these, or any of these: we also call them Heretics, and for such we condemn them.  
But Sirs ye forget yourselves foully. 
Contradiction found in the defenders.  How agreeth this with that ye say hereafter oftentimes, that the Light of the Truth was quite put out, and that Luther and Zuinglius first borough the Gospel abroad into the world?  
Were it true that Christ was called a Samaritane for the cause ye assign, thereof what conclude ye? We see where about ye go. Ye would seem to join with Christ, with Paul, and with the first Christians. But truly they refuse your company.  
But we tell you, 
Samaritane.  Christ was the true Samaritane in deed, 
johan. 8.  that is to say, the Keeper, as he that is Keeper of mankind: and therefore he shunned not the name. Yet was he not a Samaritane as the jews meant. Paul likewise, (who was not as ye say, to speak properly, called before the judges to make ausweare to a matter of Heresy) being accused to Felix by Tertullus that he was of the sect or Heresy of the Nazarens (so were the Christians first called) did not only not deny, 
Act. 24.  but openly confessed, that according to that way or state of life, which the jews called a sect or Heresy, he worshipped God. 
Heresy.  For it is to be considered that in those times the name of Heresy was not so infamous, as it may be judged by the place of the Acts, cap. 5. unless somewhat be added whereby it may be understanded to be taken in rate of a vice, as, 1. Cor. 11. Galat. 5. So the word was then indifferent, and might be taken in good part, or evil part. Tertullian useth it in good part, where speaking of the Christians, he calleth them Sectam, 
Apologeti. C●. 21. Secta.  a Sect, into which Latin word the Greek word Heresis is turned. Now these examples of Christ, Paul, and the first Christians, serve not your defence. Christ was called of the jews a Samaritane unworthily after the sense of their thought: Ye are called Heretics, worthily. Paul burdened with the name of Heresy, for as much as thereby was signified the kind of life of those that believed in Christ, the word being indifferent, was honoured rather then reutled. And Tertullian calleth the Christian people a Sect (as he might) without blemish or note of any evil, Your case is not like: For ye are charged with Heresy, as it is taken in the worst part.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O how many waste words hath M. harding to spare? Here once again he comneth in with Hus, Jerome of prague, Wicklefe, Almarik, Abailard, apostolics, Peterbrusians, Berengarians, Waldenses, Albingenses, Image-breakers, to fray his simple reader with a terror of strange names. We say, Luther and Zuinglius were the first Publishers of the Gospel: and yet again we say, the same Luther and Zuinglius were not the first: We have forgotten ourselves foully: We writ contradiction against ourselves: We would seem to toine with Christ and Paul: but truly they refuse our company: And so forth, I know not what.  
verily, M. harding, we never said, Luther, and Zuinglius were the first Publishers of the Gospel. If we should so say, we should report untruth, as you do often. Christ, and his Apostles were the first.  
These worthy, and Learned Fathers, Luther, and Zuinglius, and other like Godly and zealous men, were appointed of God, not to erect a new Church, but to reform the old, whereof you had made a Cave of thieves: to kindle again the Light, that you had quenched: and to hear witness to the Truth of God.  
You say, Christ, and Paul will none of our company: as if you were privy of their counsel. But perhaps, M. harding, this is Clavis errans, and therefore can neither open, 
Hieronym. in. 16 Ca Matthae.  nor shut: Or, 
johan. 14.  as S. 
1. Pet. 2.  Jerome saith, Pars aliqua supercilij Pharisaici, some part of the high looks of the Phariseis. Christ himself hath said, Who so loveth me, will keep my word: and my Father loveth him: And my Father, and I will come to him, and dwell with him. S. Peter saith, Who so trusteth in him, shall not be confounded.  
Of Abailard, and Almarik, and certain other your strange names, we have no skill: They are none of ours. Of john Hus, Jerome of prague, and Berengarius, and other like virtuous Learned men, we have no cause to be ashamed. Their Doctrine standeth still, and increaseth daily: because it is of God. But as for yours, because it is only of yourselves, therefore it falleth daily, and is now forsaken the world through.  
You say, that the simple namè of Sect, or Heresy, wherewith S. Paul was charged, was not so infamous, or odious in those days: and that Tertullian called the Religion of Christ a Sect, or Heresy without any manner blemmishe or note of evil. It was peerless for M. Harding, to avouch Untruth so earnestly without cause.  
I grant, the name of Heresy, or Sect among the Philosophers was not infamous. 
Cicer. in Paradox.  Cicero saith, Cato in ea Haeresi est, quae nullum sequitur florem Orationis. But in case of Religion it was evermore amongst all men taken in ill part, and condemned, and counted odious. touching S. Paul, in how good part the jews called him Heretic, 
Actor. 24.  it may easily appear by these words of Tertullus his accuser: invenimus hunc virum pestilentem, & moventem seditionem omnibus judaeis per universum orbem, ac Principem Sectae Nazaraeorum: We have found this man to be a Pestilent, and a wicked fellow, moving sedition among the Jews throughout the whole world, and a Captain of the Heresy of the Nazareines. In such good part they said unto Christ: 
johan. 7.  Art thou greater than was our Father Abraham: Thou art a false Prophet, 
johan. 8.  and deceivest the People: Thou art a Samaritane, and hast the Devil.  
The like good part Christ promised afore hand to his Disciples: 
johan 16.  They shall cast you out of their synagogues: 
Matth. 1●.  Ye shallbe hated of all men for my name's sake. In such good part and meaning was S. Paul called an Heretic. And so, M. harding, 
Nicola Lyra in 24. Cap. Actor.  besides others, your own Doctor Nicolaus Lyra would soon have told you.  
But much more I marvel, ye should so unadvisedly say, that Tertullian called the Christian people a Sect, 
Christian Faith called Heresy.  or Heresy in good part, and, as you say, without any blemish, or note of evil. For the same. Tertullian in the same Apology saith, the Heathens commonly called the Christians, Incestos, Homicidas, Infanticidas, 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  Sacrilegos, Pessimos, Nocentissimos, Publicum odium, Hosts humani generis, Omnium Scelerum reos: Deorum, Imporatorum, Legum, Morum, Naturae totius inimicos: Aduouterours against kind, Mankillers, killers of Children, church-robbers, most wicked, most husteful, the public hatred, the enemies of Mankind, guilty of all kind of wickedness: Enemies against the Gods, against the Emperors, against the Laws, against good order, against Nature itself. 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  Where so ever they saw them, they made an outcry upon them, Christianos ad Leonem: Non licet esse Christianos: Have these Christians to the Lion: It is not lawful, these Christians should live. So S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Civitate, li. 2. ca 3. Eujeb. li. 4. ca 18.  Factum est vulgi Proverbium, Plwia defecit cause Christianorum: It is now become a common Proverb among the people, our rain faileth us, because of these Christians. So Eusebius saith, the Religion of Christ was called Impiorum Christianorum Haeresis: The Heresy of the Godless Christians. These words, M. harding, I trow, were never uttered without all manner blemish, and note of evil. S. Jerome saith, Quod magis mirum sit, 
Hieronym. in Epist. ad Titum▪ Cap. 3.  etiam illud de Actibus Apostolorum videtur esse relegendum, Fidem nostram in Christum, & Ecclesiastican Disciplinan iam tunc à perversis hominibus Haeresim nuncupatam: And that we may the more marvel, we may once again read this place of the Acts of the Apostles: where we find, that the Christian Faith, and Ecclesiastical Discipline was even then of wicked men called on Heresy.  
Even as rightly, M. harding, and upon as good grounds, you have again this day condemned the same Gospel of Christ, and in ans good part, & meaning have called it Heresy. But we may truly, and simply say with S. Paul, 
Actor. 24.  according to this Sect, which you call Heresy, we worship the God of our Fathers, which is the Father of our Lord jesus Christ.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 1.  
But the more sore, and outrageous a crime Heresy is, the more it ought to be proved by plain & strong arguments, especially in this time, when men begin to give less credit to their words, & to make more diligent search of their Doctrine, than they were wont to do. For the people of God are otherwise instructed now, than they were in times passed, when all the Bishops of Rome's sayings were allowed for Gospel, and when all Religion did depend only upon their Authority. Now a days the Holy Scripture is abroad, the writings of the Apostles and Prophets are in Print: whereby all Truth and Catholic Doctrine may be proved, and all Heresy may be disproved and confuted.  

M. harding.  
Where ye require your Heresy, for so much as it is so heinous a crime, 
The Defenders Heresies sufficiently and fully confuted already by sundry great Clerks. Lanfrancus. Guimundus. Petrus Cluoiacensis.  by plain and strong are gumentes to be proved: it is not unfoowen how sufficiently and substantially that is perfoormed already by men of excellent learning, as well of this age, as of times passed. Was not Berengarius, the first Author of your sacramentary Heresy? by most plain and strong arguments confuted of Lanfrancus B. of Canturbury, and Guinundus B. of Auersa? Were not the Peterbrusians so, whose Heresy ye hold against the Blessed Sacrifice of the Mass, of the learned Abbot Petrus Cluniaccensis? Was not Wicklef so of Thomas Walden, a learned man of England? hath not Luther and Oeclampadius been so confuted in our time, of that Holy and learned Father Bishop Fisher?  
But whatshal I speak of particular men, 
Tho. Walden. B. Fisher.  were they newer so excellent, by whom they have been confuted, sith by Public sentence of the Church they have been condemned, both in General and Provincial Counsels? 
Scriptures and Doctors.  Therefore we think it not noede no we again to prove your doctrine, so sufficiently condemnèd, to be Heresy. That the people be no we otherwise instructed, than they were in times passed, we confess. But whether better now, then in our Forefathers days, they that can consider the lives of them no we, and of them that were then, may easily Indge.  
The sayings of the Bishop of Rome were never allowed for the Gospel. His private sayings and common talk might be erroneous, 
In whatcase the Pope's sayings are to be taken for Truth. Luc●. 22.  notesse then other men's But what he saith by way of judgement and sentence definitive in doubtful points touching Religion, such sayings of Peter's successor (for whom Christ prayed, that his Faith might not fail, and who was commanded by Christ to strengthen his Brethren) we take for Truth, and the same obediently receive. So the Fathers assembled in Council at Chalcedon, 
Untruth.  received and agreed to the saying and writing of Pope Leo, no less then if Peter the Apostle and first Bishop of Rome himself had spoken. The Pope's authority we acknowledge Supreme above all other authority in Earth, touching the government of the Church: 
Untruth:  yet was it never said, ne thought by the Catholics, that all Religion depended only thereon, as your slanderous report beareth men in hand.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Lanfrancus, Euimondus, Abbas Cluniacensis, Thomas Waldensis, john Fisher, and other your like Doctors, M. harding, are over young, all within the space of this last five hundred years, far unlike S. Augustine, S. Jerome, S. Ambrose, S. Chrysostom, and others the Ancient Learned Fathers, & Doctors of the Church. Neither is there any sufficient cause to the contrary, but that Berengarius, john Wicklefe, john Hus, Doctor Luther, Zwinglius, Oecolampadius, & others, either for Learning, or for Truth, or for judgement in the Scriptures, or for Antiquity may well & safely be compared with them. At the least I hope we may say of them, as S. Augustine once said of the Doctors, & Fathers of his time: 
August. ad Fortunarian. Epis. 111.  Neque quorumliber Disputationes, quamuis Catholicorum, & laudatorum hominum, velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus: ut nobis non liceat, salva honorificentia, quae illis debetur, aliquid in eorum Scriptis improbare, aut respuere: si fortè invenerimus, quòd aliter selfserint; quàm Veritas habet: Neither weigh we the writings of all mean, be they never, so worthy, and Catholic, as we weigh the Canonical Scriptures: but that, saving the reverence that is dew unto them, we may wislike, and refuse somewhat in their writings, if we happen to find, that they have thought otherwise, than the Truth may bear. Likewise the Councils, ye mean, are very New, & therefore bear the less authority, for that they be so many ways contrary to the Old. Hereof hereafter more at large. Certainly, there is none of your errors so gross and palpable, but by some of your late Councils it hath been confirmed. Therefore we may justly say to you, as S. Augustine sometime said to Mariminus the Arian Heretic, 
August. contrae Maximin. Li. 3. Cap. 14.  Nec ego Nicenam Synodum tibi, nec tu mihi Ariminensem debes, tanquam praeiudicaturus, obijcere. Scripturarum Authoritatibus, res cum re, causa cum causa, ratio cum ratione concever: Neither may I say to thee the Council of Nice, nor mayst thou lay to me the Council of Ariminum, either of us thinking thereby to find previdice against the other. But let us lay matter to matter, cause to cause, and reason to reason, by the Authority of the Scriptures.  
Ye grant, there is more light and knowledge now, then was before. The greater is either your fault, or your folly, M. harding, that in the broad day, & open Light so busily set forth the works of darkness. S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in Psalm. 9  Hic est multò impudentior. Ex furibus enim leges eos graviùs puniunt, qui interdiu furantur: He is very shameless, that worketh deceit in the open Light. For of all thieves the Law most sharply punisheth them, that rob in the day time. Therefore S. Cyprian saith unto you: Ignosci poruit simpliciter erranti. Post inspirationem verò & revelationem factam, 
Cyprian.  qui in eo, quod erraverat, perseverat prudens, & sciens, sine venia ignorantiae peccat. Praesumptione enim, atque obstinatione superatur:. He that is deceived, 
Pope above God's Word.  and erieth of simplicity, may be pordoned. But after that the Truth is once revealed, who so continueth nevertheless in his former error witingly and willingly, sinneth without pardon of ignorance, as being overcome by presumption, and wilfulness.  
You say, not withstanding all this great Light we talk of, yet our lives are nothing comparable to the lives of them that have been before us. This, M. harding, hath ever been an old complaint in all ages, as may appear by S. Cyprian, 
Cyprian. ad Demetrianum. August. De Civita. Dei. Ecclesiastes. 7.  S. Augustine, and other Ancient Fathers: It was a common Proverb in old times, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Things a year paste are evermore better, than things present. For every thing to us seemeth the greater, as it seemeth nearest to touch our senses. And because we feel not our Father's evils, therefore we imagine, they had no evil at al. The wise man saith, Ne dixeris, quae causa est, quòd priora tempora meliora fuerint, quàm praesentia. Stulta enim est huiusmodi interrogatio: Never demand wherefore the times paste were better than the times present. For in deed it is a foolish question.  
But, M. harding, wherefore do you thus condemn our lives in respect of our Fathers? Certainly you must needs confess, there are fewer blasphemies, fewer Oaths, fewer breaches of Matrimony, fewer Stews, fewer Concubines, fewer Frays, fewer Murders amongst us this day, then commonly were at any time among our Fathers. How be it, to let our Father's pass, if it shall please you to lay our lives to your lives, although we acknowledge many our imperfections, yet God's name be blessed, we have no cause to flee the comparison.  
The Pope's words, you say, were never taken for Gospel: Yes, M. harding, and somewhat also above the Gospel. For proof whereof it may please you to remember the words of certain your late Doctors. Sylvester Prieriâs late Masseter of Pope Leoes Palace, 
Sylvester Prieriâs, Contra Lutherum.  writeth thus: Indulgentiae authoritate Scripturae non innotuere nobis: sed authoritate Ecclesiae Romanae, Romanorumque Pontificum, quae maior est: pardons are not warrented unto us by the authority of God's Word: but by the authority of the Roman Church, and of the Bishops of Rome, which is more, than God's Word. If this be not sufficient, he addeth farther: A doctrina Romanae Ecclesiae, & Romani Pontificis Sacra Scriptura robur, & authbritatem trahit: The Hosy Scripture taketh strength, and authority of the Doctrine of the Bishop and Church of Rome.  
Cardinal Cusanus entitleth his Book: 
Nicolaus Cusanus.  De authoritate Ecclesiae, & Councilij supra, & contra Scripturam: Of the Authority of the Church, and Council above, and against the Scripture.  
Your greatest Doctor Albertus Pigghius saith, 
Albert. Pigghius, Hierarch. Lib 1. Cap. 2.  Apostoli quaedam conscripserunt, non ut scripta illa praessene Fidei & Religioni nostrae, sed potius ut subessent: The Apostles wrote certain things, not to the end that such willinges should he over our Faith, and Religion: but rather, that they should be under. Your canonists say, 
a 16. q. 1. Quicunque: In Clossa.  a Papa potest dispensare conira ius Divinum: The Pope may dispense against the Law of God: 
b 15. q. 6. Authoritate. In Clossa.  Papa potest dispensare contra Ius Naturae: The Pope may dispense against the Law of Nature: 
c Dist 34. Lector, & Dist 82 Presbyter.  Papa potest dispensare contra Apostolum: The Pope may dispense against S. Pause the Apostle: 
d Abbas Panot. Extra. De Divorijs. Cap. fin.  Papa poorest dispensare contra Nowm Testamentum: The Pope may dispense against the New Testament: 
e Summa Angel. in Dictione Papa.  Papa potest dispensare de omnibus praeceptis veteris, & Novi Testamenti: The Pope may dispense with all the Commandments both of the Old, and also of the New Testament. Hereof more hereafter, as farther occasion shallbe offered.  
These be your own Doctors words, M. harding: they be truly reported: they be no scalunders. And therefore Franciscus Zarabelia a Cardinal of Rome saith thus: 
f Franciscus Zarabella, De Sectis. 115.  Persuaserunt Pontificibus, quòd omnia possent, & sic quòd facerent, quicquid liberet, etiam illicita, & sint plusquam Deus: They have made the Popes believe that they might do all things, what so ever they sisted, yea notwithstanding they were things unlawful? and thus have they made them more than God.  
You say, The Pope in his common talk may be deceived, and err, as other menue may: but in his judgement Seat, and Sentence Definitive of Religion be cannot err: as if ye would say, The Pope hath one Spirit in the Consistory, & an other at home: much like, as one said sometimes unto Cicero in reproach of his inconstancy, 
Sallust. in Cices ronem. Lucae, 22.  Aliud stans, aliud sedens de Republica loqueris: touching the Common Wease, ye have one mind sitting, and an other standing.  
But Christ said unto Peter, I have prayed for thee, that thy Faith should not fail: Therefore, say you, We receive obediently, what so ever the Pope speaketh in place of judgement. Hereby ye seem to give us secretly to understand, that Christ's Prayers were available for the Pope, to keep him from error, not in the Church, or pulpit, or Closet, or any other common, or Private place, but only in the Consistory, and Council, in debating doubtful cases of Religion.  
But how holdeth this arguments? Christ prayed for Peter, that his Faith should not fail: 
Augustin. in Quaesti. Novi Tesla. Quae. 75. johan. 17.  Ergo, the Pope cannot err. Verily S. Augustine saith, Nunquid pro Petro rogabat: pro johann, & lacobo non rogabat? Vt de coeteris taceamus: What did Christ pray for Peter: and did be not pray for john, and james? I will not speak of the rest. Neither did Christ pray for Peter only, or for the Apostles, but, for all the Faithful, that ever should be: as himself saith, I pray not only for them, but also for all them, that through their preaching shall believe in me.  
How be it, what, saith M. harding, he so obediently receiveth the Pope's Decrees? Yewis, the Popes themselves will not so receive them. Platyna saith, Acta Priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices aut infringunt, 
Platyna in Stephano, & in Romano.  aut omninò tollunt. Nihil enim aliud isti Pontificuli cogitabant, quàm ut nomen, & dignitatem maiorum suorum extinguerent: The next Pope either breaketh, or utterly repeaseth his Predecessors Decrees. For these little petty Popes had none other study to busy themselves withal, but only to deface the name and dignity of the former Popes.  
Where you say, The whole Council of Chalcedon so esteemed the voice of Pope Leo, as if it had been the voice of Peter himself, this, M. harding, is a manifest Untruth, as it shall soon appear. I grant, the name of Leo, for his great learning, and granitie was much regarded. So. S. Ambrose for the like cause was called, 
Athanas. ad Heronem. Sozomen. Lib. 1. Cap. 23.  Orbis terrarum oculus, Sacerdotum Archisacerdos, & Fundamentum Fidei: The Eye of the world, the Head Priest of all Priests, and the foundation of the Faith. So Paphnutius, being no Pope, was heard against all the rest of the Council of Nice: So S. Jerome being neither Pope, nor Bishop, was received against this whole Council of Chalcedon. 
36 Quaest. 2. Quia legitima.   
Neither did the Council follow Leo alone, as the Universal Bishop, and Head of the Church, but joined him together with others, as estéeminge them of equal Authority. 
Concil. Chalcedon. Actio. 2.  For thus they made their general shoot: Omnes ita credimus: Leo Papa ita credit: Gyrillus ita credit: Leo, & Anatolius ita credunt: Thus we all believe: Thus Pope Leo believeth: Cyrillus thus beseveth: Leo, and Anatolius thus believe.  
And with what credit can M. harding say, The whole Council of Chalcedon yielded unto Pope Leo, as if it had been unto Peter himself? For it is certain, that the same whole Council decreed against Leo: and likewise Leo against the Council. For the Council decreed, contrary to the old Canons, that the Bishop of Constantinople among the four patriarchs should be the second in dignity, and that the same Bishop of Constantinople should have and enjoy one authority, and like Privileges with the Bishop of Rome. The words be these, Acqua Sanctisissmae Sedi Novae Romae Privilegia tribuerunt rationabile iudicantes, 
Concil. Chalcedon. Actio. 16. Pa. 936.  urbem eam ornatam iam Imperio, & Senaru, aequis Senioris Regiae Romae Privilegijs frui, & in Ecclesiasticis, sicut illa habet, Maiestatem habere negotijs: The Father's gave equal Privileges unto the Holy See of New Rome (which was Constantinople) thinking it to be reasonable, that the same City of Constantinople, being now furnished with Empire, and Council, 
Church dependeth of the Pope.  should enjoy equal Privileges with the Princely City of the old Rome, and in all Ecclesiastical affairs should bear the same Majesty, that Rome beareth. This thing Pope Leo much misliked, and found great fault with the Council, and would in no wise consent unto it. Thus he writeth, 
Leo Epist. 59  Quae per occasionem Synodi malè sunt attentata reprehenderam: I reproved those things that were evil attempted by the Council of Chascedon: 
Leo Epist. 53.  And again, Nullum unquàm potuerunt nostrum obtinere consensum: They were never able to get our consent.  
And when these matters were passed by the consent of all the Bishops, Lucentius Pope Leoes Legate came whining in, and besought the Council, that the whole matter might be repealed. The words written in the Council be these: Lucentius dixit: 
Concil. Chalcet don. Actio. 16.  Sedes Apostolica, quae nobis praecepit, praesentibus humiliati non debet. Et ideò quaecunque in praeiudicium Canonum, hesterna die gesta sunt, nob ● absentibus, sublimitatem vestram petimus, ut circunduci iubeatis. Viri Illustrissimi ludices dixerunt, Quod interloquuri sumus, tòta Synodus approbavit: Lucentius the Pope's Legate said, The apostolic See of Rome, whose commission we have, may not by any these doings be defaced. Therefore we beseech your honours, that what so ever was concluded here yesterday in our absence, in prejudice of the Canons, ye will command the same to be blotted out. The Honourable judges made him answer: That we have talked of, the same the whole Council hath allowed.  
Thus many ways, M. harding, the Untruth of your tale plainly appeareth. For the Council of Chalcedon esteemed not the voice of Leo, as if it had been the voice of Peter, as you say: but rather contrariwise made light of it, and weighed it none otherwise, than they same cause.  
Therefore Liberatus saith thus touching the same: 
Liberatus, ca 13.  Cùm Anatolius, consentiente Concilio Primatum obtinuisset, Legati verò Romani Episcopi contradicerent, à ludicibus, & Episcopis omnibus illa contradictio suscepta non est. Et licet Sedes Apostolica nune usque contradicat, tamen, quod à Synodo firmatum est, Imperatorio Patrocinio permanet: When Anatolius (the Bishop of Constantinople) by consent of the Council had obtained the Primacy, notwithstanding, the Bishop of Rooms Legates stood against it, yet their gainesaieinge could not be received, neither of the judges, nor of the Bishops. And all be it the apostolic See of Rome withstand it still, yet the Decree of the Council by the emperors warrant continueth in force.  
But you never taught us, ye say, that the whole state of the Church dependeth of the Pope. It is not your Doctrine: you never spoke it. And therefore we are railers, and slanderers, that so report you. If it be so in deed, M. harding, as you say, wherefore then suffer you Cardinal Cusanus to write thus, Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae. 
Nicolaus Cusasnus De author. Eccl. & Concil. Supra & contra Scripturam.  Quare membra Cathedrae unita, & Pontifici coniuncta efficiunt Ecclesiam: The Truth cleaveth fast to the (Popes) Chair. Therefore the members united to the Chair, and joined to the Pope, make the Church. Wherefore suffer you johannes de Parisijs, one of your Catholic Doctors, to write thus: Fiet unum Ouile, & unus Pastor. Quod quidem de Christo intelligi non potest: Sed de aliquo alio Ministro, qui praesit loco cius: 
johan. De Parisijs De potestate Regia, & Papali, Cap. 3.  There shallbe one Plocke, and one shepherd. Which thing cannot be taken of Christ. We must needs understand it of some other Minister, that ruleth in his steed.  
Wherefore suffer you Nosius your grand Captain to write thus: unum toti praecsse Ecclesiae Vsque adeò est necessarium, ut absque hoc Ecclesia una esse non possit: It is so necessary a thing, 
Hosius In Confession Petricovi, Cap. 27.  that one only man overuse the whole Church, that without the same the Church cannot be one. Wherefore suffer you your canonists to say, Constat Ecclesiam ideo esse unam, quia in universali Ecclesia unum est Caput Supremun, Scilicet Papa: It is plain, that therefore the Church is one, because that in the whole Universal Church there is one Supreme Head, 
Clemen. Lib. 5. Ad nostrum: In Glossae.  that is the Pope. To be short, why do you yourself, M. harding, allege S. Hieromes words directly, as ye would have us believe, to this purpose? 
M. Hard foe 80. b Hierony. contra Luciferianos.  Ecclesiae salus à Summi Sacerdotis dignitate pendet: Which words into English ye have turned thus: The safety of the Church hangeth of the Worship of the High Priest. He meaneth the Pope Peter's Successor. In which last clause, ye misconstrue, and rack S. Hieromes words far contrary to his meaning. For S. Jerome meant not bereby the Bishop of Rome, but every several Bishop within his own Charge: every which Bishop he calleth the Highest Priest, as in my Former Reply it is declared more at large. 
Art●. 4. Diul. 15.   
If these things be true, why are they now denied? If they be false, why are they not condemned? I trust, it may appear by these few, that we report the Truth truly, and are no slanderers.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 2.  
Sithence than they bring forth none of these for themselves, and call us nevertheless Heretics, which have neither fallen from Christ, nor from the Apostles, nor yet from the Prophets, this is an injurious and a very spiteful dealing.  

M. harding.  
Nay Sirs, ye shall not so carry away the conclusion with a lie. But contrariwise, sithence we bring forth many Scriptures for the Truth, which ye impugn, as yourselves shall see, when we come to confute your doctrine, which here followeth: and sithence not withstanding that ye will not yield to the Scriptures, but pervert the True meaning of them with Gloss and interpretations of your own Heads, 
Untruth.  frame new opinions contrary to that ye have received, and that the Church hath ever taught: the Catholics wilful call you Heretics, and the Church will condemn you for Heretics, and so account you, until ye recant, and repent.  
But ye have not fallen from Christ, 
That the Defenders be fallen from Christ.  ye say, nor from the Apostles, nor yet from the Prophets. As though they that depart from the Roman Church, which is the Catholic Church, which diverse times in the Apology ye confess, fell not from Christ, and consequently from the Apostles, and Prophets. 
Math. 28. Luke. 10.  saith not Christ in the Gospel: He that heareth not the Church, let him be to thee as an Heathen, and a Publican? saith he not also, He that despiseth you, despiseth me?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Whether part rightly and reverently useth the Scriptures of God, and whether perverteth them by shifts, and Gloss, I trust, it shall in part appear by this conference. In deed, M. harding, it is no great mastery, by your interpretations, and handelinges to have store enough and plenette of Scriptures. For this is one special ground of your Divinity, 
a Extra. De translatione Episcopi, Quamto, in Glossa.  Papa potest ex nihilo facere aliquid: & Sententiam, quae nulla est, facere aliquam: The Pope is able of nothing to make some thing: and of no Sentence to make some Sentence. By your Doctrine it is lawful, and good Logic, to reason thus: 
b Dist. 21. Inferior Sedes. isaiah. 10.  An gloriabitur serra adversus eum, qui trahit illam● Shall the saw boast against him, that draweth it? 
c Matthae. 10. Concil. Roman. sub Syluestro. 1.  Non est servus supra Dominum: There is no Servant above his Lord: Ergo, Noman may dare to judge the Pope. Or thus, 
d Ad Titum. 1. Dist. 82. Proposuisti.  Omnia munda mundis: Coinquinatis autem, & infidelibus mihil est mundum: All things are clean to the clean: but unto the filthy, and Infidels nothing is clean: Ergo, It is not lawful for Priests to marry.  
Or, as you, M. harding, sometimes have delighted to reason: 
e Matthae. 7. M. harding in his former Book, Fol. 155. b.  Nolite dare Sanctum Canibus: give not Holy things to Dogs, Ergo, It is not lawful for the Christian vulgar People to Read the Scriptures.  
Thus may you easily be well stored, and full freight of Scriptures enough, and, as 
f Hieronym. ad Pammachium: Exempla captiva serviunt ad Victoriam.  S. Jerome saith, may carry them captive to serve your turn. But S. Jerome could also have told you, 
g Hierony. in 1. Cap. Ad Galat.  Non in verbis Scripturarum est evangelium, 
Cyprian ad Notianum. to. 2.  sed in sensu: The Gospel standeth not in the bare words of the Scriptures, but in the meaning. Therefore we may say unto you, as S. Cyprian once said to the Novatian Heretics: Audite, Novatiani, apud quos Scripturae Coelestes leguntur potiùs, quàm intelliguntur: Hearken hereto, ye Novatian Heretics, amongst whom the Heavenly Scriptures are read rather, then well perceived.  
You say, the Church of Rome by our own Confession is the Catholic Church: which Church, for as much as we have forsaken, we have forsalten Christ, and his Apostles. 
Matth. 18. Lucae. 10.  For saith not Christ in the Gospel, say you, He that heareth not the Church, let him be unto thee as an Heathen, and a Publican? And, He that despiseth you, despisethe me?  
We grant, M. harding, the name of the Church of Rome is Catholic: but the Errors and abuses thereof are not Catholic. Neither is it the Church, that we find fault withal: but the great corruptions, and foul deformities, that you have brought into the Church.  
How be it your policy herein is apparent. Your Reader, be he never so simple, may soon see your whole drift. Ye magnify the Church with all manner titles of Authority, not for any special regard, ye bear the Church in deed, but only to settle yourselves in an infinite Tyranny, and to make us believe, that you only are the Church, & to give credit to all your fantasies: yea although ye be the defacers, & enemies of the Church. Verily the bare name of the Church is not sufficient. S. Paul saith, that antichrist the Man of sin, 
2. Thess. ●.  shall sit in the Temple of God: whereby no doubt he meant the Church.  
But, M. harding, Hear you the voice of God: leave your Fables: speak Gods Holy Word, and speak it truly: be ye faithful Ministers of the Truth. Then who so ever shallbe found to despise your Doctrine, be he king, or Emperor, we will not doubt to call him an Heathen, and Publican. But if he be an Heathen, that will not bear your Church, what is he then that will not hear Christ? 
Aeneas Sylui. in Gestis Concil. Consiant.  Aeneas Silvius, being afterward Pope himself, saith thus: Si Romanus Pontifex non audiet Ecclesiam, Christum quoque non audiet, & tanquam Ethnicus, & Publicanus haberi debet: If the Bishop of Rome will not hear the Church, he will not hear Christ: and therefore must be taken as an Heathen, 
Paral. Vrsperg. Pag. 411.  and Publican. S. Augustine saith, Oues meae vocem meam audiunt, & sequuntur me. Auferantur chartae Humanae: sonent voces Divinae: My Sheep hear my voice, 
Aug. De ovibus Cap. 14.  and follow me. Away with Man's Writtinge: Let the Voice of God sound unto us.  
Surely Doctor Luther himself, against whom M. harding so vehemently, and so often inflamethe his choler, in humble and reverent manner writeth thus: Nos colimus Romanam Ecclefiam in omnibus. 
Paral. Visperg. Pag. 472.  Tantùm illis resistimus, qui pro Ecclesia obtrudunt Babyloniam: We honour the Church of Rome in all things. Only we withstand them, that in steed of the Church, have thrust in the Consusion of Babylon. In like sense S. Cyprian. saith, Non est pax, sed bellum: nec Ecclesiae iungitur, 
Cyprian Sermone 5. De Lapsis.  qui ab evangelio separatur: It is not peace: It is War. Neither is he joined to the Church, that is dinided from the Gospel. Now, how carefully the Church of Rome is lead by the Gospel of Christ, 
Nicola. Cusanus, De Authoritate Eccle. contra. & supra Scripturan. Aug contra Literas Petilianl Lib. 2. Cap. 85.  we may easily learn by Nicolaus Cusanus a Cardinal of the same Church of Rome. Thus he saith: Sequuntur Scripturae Ecclesiam: & non è converso: The Scriptures of God follow the Church: but contrary wise the Church followeth not the Scriptures. To conclude, we may say unto you, as S. Augustine said sometime to Pentilian the Donatian Heretic: Vtrùm nos Schismatici simus, an vos, nec ego, nec tu, sed Christus interrogetur, ut judicet Ecclesiam suam: Whether of us be Sch●matiques, we, or you, ask you not me: I will not ask you: Let Christ be asked: that he may show us his own Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 1.  
With this sword did Christ put of the Devil, when he was tempted of him: with these weapons ought all presumption, which doth advance itself against God, 
●. Tim. 3.  to be overthrown and conquered. For all Scripture, saith S. Paul, that cometh by the Inspiration of God, is profitable to teach, to confute, to instruct, and to reprove, that the man of God may be perfit, and thoroughly framed to every good work. Thus did the Holy Fathers alway fight against the Heretics, with none other force, then with the Holy Scriptures.  

M. harding.  
That the Holy Fathers did ever more fight against the Heretics with now other force, then with the Holy Scriptures, that weè deny.  
For What did the Fathers in the first general Council holden at Nice? did they fight against Arius and the maintainers of his Heresy with no other force, then with the Scriptures? When those Heretics refused the word Homoousion, whereby is signified the son of God to be of one and the same substance with God the Father, for that it was not to be found in the Scriptures, besides which they stiffly denied, as ye do, that any thing ought to be received: did not the Caetholike Bishops of tother side fly to the Ancient Fathers? did they not appeal to the judgements of those Fathers, which had given sentence of the matter then being in controversy, before that Arius and those that held of his side were borne?  
In the second Council assembled at Constantinople, 
Histor. Tripart. lib. 5, cap. 10.  were not the Heretics of sundry sects by a witty and a godly policy contrived between Nectarius the Bishop and Theodosius the Emperor, through the suggestion of the great Clerk Stsinnius, driven to receive the Doctors, who lived before their Heresies were heard of, as witnesses of true Christian Doctrine worthy of credit?  
Macedonius in that Council was condemned, 
Macedonius.  who therefore denied the Holy Ghost to be God. because the Scriptures give not unto him that name. But the Bishops there assembled, as Photius that learned Bishop writeth, declared out of the teaching of the Fathers, and Divines before their time, that the Holy Ghost is to be adored, worshipped, and glorified, as being of one nature and substance together with the Father, and the Son.  
In the third Council kept at Ephesus, 
Nestorius ever called for Scripture, as the Heretics at this day do, what so ever sect they be of. Epist. 1. Tom. 4 Deipara not found in Scripture, yet received and kept.  the Heretic Nestorius boasted, at ye do, of the Scriptures, saying, they were of his side, and would neither speak, nor hear aught but Scriptures, Scriptures. And alleging a place or two out of the Gospel, where Marie is called the Mother of jesus, stoutly, find me in all Scripture, (quoth he) where Marie is called the Mother of God. Hereto what said that holy and learned Bishop Cyrillus, chief in that Council? Hanc nobis fidem divini tradidere Discipuli: & licet nullam fecerint dictionis huius mentionem, ita tamen sentire à sanctis Patribus edocti sumus. This Fatthe (saith he) the Disciples of God have by tradition left unto us. And although they have made no express mention of this word (Deipara) yet so to think we have been taught of the Holy Fathers.  
When they reasoned about rules touching faith to be made, (saith Vincentius Lirinensis writing of that Council) to all the Bishops there assembled to the number almost of two hundred, this seemed most Catholic, most faithful, and best to be done, that the sentences of the Holy Fathers should be brought forth among them: to th'end that by their consent and Decrce the Religion of the Old Doctrine should be confirmed, and the blasphemy of the Profane novelty condemned. Behold Sirs what weapons the Fathers have used against Heresies, besides the Holy Scriptures.  
In the fourth Council, which was celebrated at Chalcedon, the Heretic Eutyches, as ye and all Heretics have done, craked much of the Scriptures, and required his matter to be discussed by Scriptures. Tell me (quoth he mockingly to every one that reasoned with him) in what Scripture lie the two natures? 
Eutyches claimed his opinion to be tried by the Scriptures.   
But let us hear what the Learned Bishops of that Council said thereto. We find in the first action of the Council, that they cried out aloud, Ea quae sunt Patrum teneantur: The things that the Fathers have taught, 
The teaching of the Fathers to be kept: Actio. 5.  let them be kept. Again when they come to the definitive sentence, they say: Sequentes igitur Sanctos Patres, etc. Folo wing the Holy Fathers, we do all with one accord teach men to confess one and himself the Son our Lord jesus Christ, persite himself in Godhead, and perfit himself in Manhood. And for Authority of the Fathers in high points of Faith a Bishop in that reverend assembly named Eudoocius pronounced a notable sentence, saying thus: Every one that consentethe not to the exposition of the Holy Fathers, 
A notable saying of a Learned Father, for th'exposition of the Fathers.  doth alienate himself from all Pristely Communion, and from the presence of Christ. Thus we have alleged the four first general Counsels, which S. Gregory honourethe as the four Gospels.  
But the thing being so evident as it is, and so welkuorwen even to yourselves, if ye be learned, the Auctorit it of these chief Counsels may suffice.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here M. harding, ye have taken in hand a peerless labour. For you know right well, we despise not the Authority of the Holy Fathers: but rather in this self same place have alleged together S. Augustine, S. Jerome, and S. Ambrose, three of the most Ancient and approved Fathers: and throughout the whole discourse of this Apology, in the Defence of the Catholic Truth of our Religion, next unto God's Holy Word, have used no prouse, or Authority so much, as the expositions, and judgements of the Holy Fathers. We despise them not therefore, but rather give God thanks in their behalf, for that it hath pleased him to provide so worthy instruments for his Church: and therefore we justly reprove you, for that so unadvisedly, and without cause, ye have forsaken the steps of so Holy Fathers.  
These four General Councils, wherein you dwell so long, as they make nothing against us, so in sundry points they fight expressly against you.  
first, they were summoned by the Emperors, Constantinus, Theodosius 1. Theodosius. 2. and Martianus: and not by any right, or authority of the Pope: as hereafter it shallbe showed in place convenient more at large. 
a Sozo. li. 1. ca 17  julius the Bishop of Rome was summoned by the Emperors writ to appear at the Council of Nice, as well as others: 
b Concil. Chalcedon. Actio. 1. Fol. 748.  And Pope Leo afterward was charged by like Authority to appear at the Council of Chalcedon. 
Eodem tenore Leo vocauys est.   

c Euseb. De Vita Constan. Orat. 3.  In the Council of Nice the Bishop of Rome was not Precedent, but Eustathius the Bishop of Antioch. In the same 
d Theodoretus, Lib. 1. cap. 7. Con. Nicen. Can. 6.  Council of Nice, the Bishop of Rome hath his Authority and jurisdiction made equal, and level with the other three patriarchs: 
e Concil. Chal. cedon. Actio. 16. Pag. 936.  And in the Council of Chalcedon the Bishop of Constantinople is made equal in Authority with the Bishop of Room. To be short, 
f Liberat. ca 13.  the said Council of Chalcedon, for this last, and some other like causes, Leo the Bishop of Rome would not allow. Which thing notwithstanding, the Council standeth still in force, whether the Pope will, or no.  
These be the four fist General Councils, which M. harding comparethe in Authority with the four Evangelists.  
But these Heretics. Arius, Nestorius, Macedonius, and Euiyches in these four General Councils, utterly despised all the Ancient Fathers, and boasted themselves (saith M. harding) of the Scriptures, and evermore cried out Scriptures, Scriptures. touching the Arians, that they alleged certain doubtful, and dark places of the Scriptures, to serve their purpose, it is certain, and manifest. But that either they despised, or that the Catholics against them avouched the Eropsition and authority of any Father, M. hardings only word must be our Warrant. For neither allegethe he any one Author for prouse hereof, nor yet namethe any of all these Fathers.  
notwithstanding, let us grant, these Heretics cried out, as M. harding saith, Scriptures, Scriptures. Even so did the same Heretics likewise cry out, even as now M. harding doth, 
Socr. li. 4. ca 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  Fathers, Fathers. Socrates' saith, Et Ariani Originis libros citabant in Testimonium, ut illi quidem iudicabant, sui Dogmatis. And the Arian Heretics alleged the Learned Father origen's Books, 
Doctors alleged by Heretics.  as they thought, for proof, and witness of their Doctrine.  
The Heretic Eutyches said, Ego legi scripta Beati Cypriani, & Sanctorum Patrum, 
Council Chalced Actio 1. Pag. 792 Concil. Chalced Actio. 4. Pa. 877  & Sancti Athanasii: I have read the writings of S. Cyprian, and of other Holy Fathers, and of S. Athanafius.  
Likewise the Eutychian Heretic Carosus said, Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum octodecim Patrum sic credo, sic Baptixatus sum. Aliud quid mihi dicas, nescio: This is my Faith, according to the exposition of the three hundred and eighteen. Fathers (in the Council of Nice). In this Faith was I baptized. What ye should say more to me, I cannot tell.  
Even so said Eutyches himself: 
Concil. Chalced. Actio. 1. Pag. 751  Sic à Progenitoribus meis accepi, & credidi. In hac Fide Baptizatus sum, & signatus: & usque and hunc diem in ea vixi, & in ea opto moti. Thus have I received of my Forefathers, and thus have I believed. In this Faith was I baptized, and signed: and in the same have I lived until this day: and in the same I wish to die.  
Thus, 
Augustia. contra Cresco. li. 4. ca 17 Conc. to. 1 pa. 568  S. Augustine saith, the Donatian Heretic Cresconlus alleged the authority of S. Cyprian: Thus the Nestorian Heretics alleged the authority of the Council of Nice.  
To be short, thus the Heretic Dioscorus cried out in the open Council of Chalcedon: 
Concil. Chalced. Act. 1. Pag. 767.  Ego habeo Testimonia Sanctorum Patrum, Athanasij, Gregorij, Cyrilli. Non transgredior in aliquo. Ego cum Patribus cijcior: Ego defendo Patrum Dogmata: Ego horum habeo testimonia, non simpliciter, aut transitory, said in ipsorum libris: I have the Testimonies of the Holy Fathers, Athanasius, Gregorius, Cyrillus: I altar not from them in any point: I am thrown forth, and banished with the Fathers: I defend the Father's Doctrine: I have their judgements uttered, not by chance, or unadvisedly, but remaining expressed in their Books.  
I doubt not, M. harding, but you may hereby easily see, that the Heretics ye speak of, cried not only, Scriptures, Scriptures, as ye say: but had leisure also sometimes to cry, as you do, Fathers, Fathers: & that as well to purpose, and as rightly, as you of long time have used to cry, having in deed in the cases we speak of, neither Scriptures, nor Fathers.  
To come near the matter, we say not, that all cases of doubt are by manifest, and open words plainly expressed in the Scriptures. For so there should need no exposition. But we say, There is no case in Religion so dark, and doubtful, but it may necessarily be either proved, or reproved by collection, and conference of the Scriptures.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieron. in isaiah. Cap. 19  Moris est Scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere: It is the order of the Scriptures▪ 
Augu. in lib. 83. Quaest. q. 69.  after hard things, to join other things that be plain. S. Augustine like wise saith, Solet circunstantia Scripturarum illuminare sententiam: The Circumstance of the Scripture is wont to give light, and to open the meaning. The like rule Tertullian also giveth: 
Tertull. Aduersus Tra●eam. I piphani lib. 3. De Semiariani●. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  Oportet secundum plu●a intelligi pauclora: The fewer places must be expounded by the more. Therefore touching this word, Homousios, which M. harding here moveth, and the whole contention of the Arians, Epiphanius writeth thus: Nomen Substantiae simpliciter, & nudè in veteri, & Nova Scriptura non proponitur: Sententia autem eius nominis ubique oc●urrié: This word, Substance, plainly, and nakedly is not found, neither in the Old, not in the New Testament. But the sense, and meaning of that word is found everywhere.  
In this conference, and judgement of the Holy Scriptures we need oftentimes the discretion, and wisdom of Learned Fathers. Yet notwithstanding may we not give them herein greater credit, then is convenient, or then they themselves, if it were offered, would receive. We may reverently say of them, as Seneca in the like case sommetime said, 
seneca.  Non sunt Domini, sed Duces nostri: They are our Leaders, but not our Lords. 
Scriptures and Doctors.  They are not the Truth of God itself, but only witnesses unto the Truth.  
Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
August. Epist. 19 ad Hieronym.  Alios Scriptores ita lego, ut quan●alibet Sanctitate, Doctrinaque praepolleant, non ideò verum putem, quòd ipsi ita senserint, sed quòd id mihi vel per alios Authores Canonicos, vel probabili ratione persuadere potuerint: Other writers, or Fathers (besides the Holy Scriptures) I read in this sort, that be their Learning, or Holiness never so great, I will not think it true, because they have thought so, but because they are able to persuade me so, either by other Canonical writers, or else by some likely reason. 
Augusti. contra Faust. lib. 11. ca 5.  Likewise again he saith, Hoc genus literatum, non cum credendi necessitate, sed cum judicandi libertate legendum est: This kind of writings (of the Holy Doctors, and Fathers) must be read, not with necessity to believe each thing, but with liberty to judge of each thing. 
Aug. De unita. Eccle. ca 10.  And to that end he saith, Ne Catholicis quidem Episcopis consentiendum est, sicubi fortè falluntur, ut contra Canonicas Dei Scripturas sentiant: We may not consent unto the Bishops, notwithstanding they be Catholic, if they judge contrary to the Holy Canonical Scriptures. In this authority and credit we have, and aught to have the Holy Fathers.  
Now let us see, whethér the Bishops, and others in these Councils, confuted these Heretics, as we say, by the Scriptures: or else, as M. harding séemethe to say, for want or weakness of the Scriptures, used therein the Authority of the Fathers. 
Thedor. li. 1. ca 7 Trip. hi. li. 2. ca 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  first the Emperor Constantinus in the Council of Nice, instructing the Bishops there, how they might best debate their quarrels, and end all strives, saith thus unto them: evangelicae & Apostolicae Literae, & Veterum Prophetarum Oracula perspicuè nos instituunt, quid oporteat sapere de voluntare, & sensu Dei. Ponentes ergo contentionem, ex divinitùs inspiraris oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum, quae proponuntur: The Evangelists and Apostles writings, and the sayings of the Old Prophets do clearly instruct us, what judgement we ought to have of the meaning, and will of God. Therefore saying a fide all contention, out of those Heavenly Oracles let us seek for the assoiling of our questions.  
Socrates also touching the same Council of Nice, saith thus of the Arian Heretics: 
Socrat. li. 1. ca 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Explicantes Sacrosanctas Scripturas saepe illos evertimus: By opening, and expounding the Holy Scriptures, oftentimes we overthrew them.  
Likewise S. Augustine disputing against the same Arians refusethe, as I have said before, both Councils, and Fathers, and appealethe only to the Scriptures: Nec ego Nicenam Synodum tibi, nec tu mihi Ariminensem debes obijcere: Scripturarum Authoritatibus, res cum re, causa cum causa, ratio cum ratione concertet: Neither will I allege the Council of Nice against you: 
Augusti. contra Maxi. li. 3. ca 14  nor shall you allege the Council of Ariminum against me. By the Authority of the Scriptures let us weigh matter with matter: cause with cause: reason with reason.  
touching the Council holden at Constantinople against Macedonius, and the Divinity of the Holy Ghost, Athanasius saith, 
Athanas. ad Serapion. Spirit. Sanct. non esse Creaturam. ●uagrius.  Ne interroges, sed solùm ex Sacris literis condiscas. Sufficiunt enim documenta, quae in illis reperias: Never move question hereof, but only learn of the Holy Scriptures. For the only proofs, that ye shall there find, are sufficient (to warrant the Godhead of the Holy Ghost). So likewise saith Euagrius of the other two Councils, of Ephesus, and Chalcedon: Ex Euangelicis, & Apostolicis de Domino vocibus scimus Viros illos Divinos constituisse: We know that these Godly Fathers concluded this matter by such words, as the Evangelists, and Apostles have uttered of our Lord.  
Therefore the Ancient Father Origen saith, Vide quàm propè periculis illi sint, 
Orig. in ca 16. ad Rom. lib. 10.  qui negligunt exerceri in Divinis Literis: ex quibus Solis examinationis huiusmodi agnoscenda discretio est: Consider, in what danger they be, that have no care to read the Holy Scriptures. 
Chrysost. in Opere imperfec●o, Homi 49.  For by the same Scriptures Only the judgement of this trial must be allowed.  
Even so saith Chrysostom, Etiamsi in ipsis Veris Ecclesijs, quae Dei sunt, dixerint, Christum apparuisse, nolite eis credere dicentibus ista de me. Non enim digna est Divinitatis meae haec notitia: Ostendens per haec, quòd ab ipsis saepè Veris Ecclesijs excunt seductores. Proptereà ne ipsis quidem credendum est, nisi ea vel dicant, vel faciant, quae convenientia sint Scriptures: Yea if they say, that Christ hath appeared in the very true Churches of God, yet believe them not. For this is no worthy or sufficient knowledge of my Godhead. By this he showeth, that out of the very true Churches oftentimes come forth the deceivers. Therefore we may not believe, no not them (that speak unto us in the name of the Church) unless they speak, and do such things, as are agreeable to the Scriptures. In like manner again saith Origen, 
Orig. in Heir. Hom. 1.  Necesse nobis est in restimonium vocare Sancras Scripturas. Sensus quip nostri, & enarrationes sine ijs restibus non habent fidem: We must needs call to witness the Holy Scriptures: For our judgements and expositions without those witnesses carry no credit.  
And, to leave all other like authorities, that might he alleged, for short conclusion, 
Aug. De Naturae & Cratia, ca 61  S. Augustine saith, Solis Canonicis Scripturis sine ulla recusatione consensum debeo: I own my consent without gain saying (not unto the Doctors, or Fathers, but) Only unto the Canonical Scriptures.  
But the Bishops in those Councils, saith M. harding, brought forth, and followed the expositions of the Ancient Learned Fathers. And wherefore might they not? What man ever taught, or said the contrary? Yet notwithstanding they alleged them, not as the foundations, or grounds, but only as approved, 
●uagrius libr. 3. Cap. 18 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and faithful witnesses of the Truth. Which thing if M. harding happily will deny, may easily appear, by the words of Cyrillus, pronounced and published openly in the Council of Chalcedon: Gratulamur nobis mutuò, quòd & nostrae, & vestrae Ecclesiae Fidem habent consentientem, & divinitùs adspiratis Scriptures, & Traditionibus Sanctorum Patrum: We rejoice together each of us in others behalf, for that the Faith both of our Churches, and also of yours, is agreeable both unto the Heavenly inspired Scriptures, and also to the Tradition, and exposition of our Fathers. Which words of Cyrillus being heard, and the consent of the Father's being known, the whole Council for joy made a shoot together, Omnes ita credimus, Papa Leo ita credit, etc. Thus we all believe: Pope Leo thus beleevethe: Thus beleevethe Leo, and Anatolius: Thus Cyrillus beleevethe: This is the Faith of our Fathers: This is the Faith of the Apostles: Thus have the Apostles taught.  
Thus may you see, M. harding, (we say not to you, as you do to us, If you be Learned, for thereof we have no doubt: God grant, ye may direct your Learning to his glory) but thus may you see, to what end the Bishops in the Councils, ye speak of, alleged the expositions of the Ancient Fathers, and how far they weighed them under the Authority of the Scriptures. In like sort do we also this day allege against you the manifest, and undoubted, & agreeable judgements of the most Ancient Learned Holy Fathers: and thereby, as by apapproved, and faithful witnesses, we disclose the infinite follies, and errors of your Doctrine. And seeing you have forsaken the fellowship of the said Holy Fathers, as hereafter shall more ●ully appear, we say, unto you, as Endoxius said unto the Heretic Abbate Eutyches in the Council of Chalcedon: Ye have removed yourselves, both from all Priestly Communion, and also from the presence of Christ.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 2.  
S. 
De unitate Eccle. ca 3. Et contra Maximinum Arianorū●pis. Li. 3. Cap 14.  Augustine, when he disputed against Petilian the Donatian Heretic: Let not these words, quoth he, be heard between us: I say, or, you say: Let us rather speak in this wise: Thus saith the Lord. There let us seek the Church: there let us bolt out the cause.  

M. harding.  
Concerning this place of S. Augustine, it ought not to be stretched to all matters in general, that be in question, 
manifest Untruth.  as though we might not use the Testimonies and Authorities of the Fathers against Heretics: but it perteinethe only to the question in that book, De unitate Ecclesiae, treated of, which is, where the Church is. Petilian the Donatist, and the Maintainers of that Heresy contended the Church to be only in afric, or at the furthest in part Donati, among them only that held with Donatus. The same heresy went they about to prove by Scriptures. But when S. Augustine saw how weak their proofs were, which they brought out of the Scriptures, he provoked them, the better to overthrow them, to come to the trial of the Scriptures. And in deed where the Scriptures be manifest for proof of any matter, what need is there of Doctors? But where the sense of the Scriptures is obscure, and may be wrested by evil wits to the maintenance of an Heresy, there the expositions of the Fathers by all Old Writers have been taken of necessity, to supply the Scriptures obscurity, and to declare the sense of the Church, which the Holy Ghost hath prompted. And in such cases S. Augustine himself useth the Testimonies of the Fathers not seldom, namely against julian the Pelagian: Where beside Scripture, touching Original sin, he allegethe against the Pelagians a great number of Fathers: and at length in one place speaking of the Authority, reverence, and credit he had them in, he saith thus: 
Contra Iulian● Pelagian. Lib. 1.  Quod credunt, credo, etc.: What they believe, I believe: what they hold, I hold: what they teach, I teach: what they preach, I preach. From the special to the general negatively, the argument holdeth not, ye know, if ye have not forgotten your Logic.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. harding, as well here, as else where, thinketh it an easy matter, with a bold Asseveration to smooth his unlearned simple Reader, specially such a one, as hath no eyes to look after him. These words of S, Augustine, saith he, pertain only unto the matter he had then in hand, and therefore may not be forced to any other. And here he remembrethe us of a profound point in Logic, that a Negative Conclusion from the Special to the General cannot hold. Here it were a matter worthy the hearing: first, how M. harding could enter so deeply, to know so much of S. Augustine's meaning: next, for as much as in respect of himself, he evermore fansiethe us to be unlearned, how he were able to teach us to know the same. He assuerethe us upon his word, that these words of S. Augustine must needs be pounded, and restrained to that one only matter, & may not in any wise be stretched farther: & this, he imagineth, was S. Augustine's meaning. Thus, good Reader, by M. hardings handling, thou haste here a meaning of S. Augustine's, that S. Augustine himself never meant. For S. Augustine in the same matter, and against the same Heretic Petilian, although not in the same Book, writeth thus: 
Augusti. contra Litter. Petilian. Lib. 3. Cap. 6.  Sive de Christo, sive de eius Ecclesia, sive de quacunque re alia, quae pertinet ad Fidem, vitamque nostram, non dicam, Si Nos, Sed, si Angelus de Coelo nobis annuntiaverit, praeterquàm quod in Scriptures Legalibus, & Euamgelicis accepistis, Anathema sit: Whether it be of Christ, or of his Church, or of any thing else what so ever, pertaining either to our life, or to our Faith, I will not say, If I me self, but if an Angel from Heaven shall teach us otherwise, 
Gala. 1.  than we have received in the Books of the Law, and in the Gospels, hold him accursed.  
M. harding saith, S. Augustine meant only of one matter: S. Augustine himself saith, he meant of all manner matters, touching either Faith, or Life.  
M. harding saith, S. Augustine meant this only of himself: S. Augustine himself saith, 
De quacunqúe re. Si Angelus de Coelo.  be meant it of any other, yea even of the Angels of God. And shall we think, M. harding knoweth S. Augustine's meaning, and S. Augustine himself knew it not?  
Verily S. Augustine in an other case concerning the Arians, as I have touched twice before, likewise refuseth the Determinations of all Councils, and Fathers, and standeth only to the Scriptures: 
Augusti. contra Maxi. Li. 3. ca 14  Neither will I, saith he▪ allege against thee, the Council of Nice: nor shalt thou allege against me the Council of Ariminum, etc.  
Neither doth S. Augustine only say thus, but also yieldeth a reason, why he saith it. These be his words: Auferantur de medio, quae adversus nos invicem, non ex Divinis Canonicis Libris, 
Augu. Deunita. Iccle. contra Petilian. Cap. 3.  sed aliundé recitamus. Quaerer fortasse aliquis, Cur vis ista auferri de medio? Quia nolo humanis Documentis, sed Divinis Oraculis Ecclesiam Sanctam demonstrari: Have away all those Authorities, that either of us allegeth against the other, saving such only, as be taken out of the Heavenly Canonical Scriptures. But perhaps, some man will ask me. Wherefore would ye have all such other Authorities put away? I answer, Because I would have the Holy Church to he proved, not by the Doctrines of men, but by the Word of God.  
So saith S. Augustine unto other the Donatists: 
Augu. in Psal. 57  Auferantur de medio Chartae nostrae: procedat in medium Codex Dei. Audi Christum dicentem: audi Veritatem loquentem: Take a way from amongst us any our own Books: Let the Book of God come emongste us. Hear, what Christ saith: hearken, what the Truth speaketh.  
Again he saith, Audi, dicit Dominus: Non, dicit Donatus, aut Rogatus, aut Vincentius, 
Augu. in Epist. 48  aut Hilarius, aut Ambrose, aut Augustinus: sed, dicit Dominus: Hear this: The Lord saith. Hear not this, Donatus saith, Rogatus saith, Vincenius saith, Hilarius saith, Ambrose saith, Augustine saith: But hearken to this, The Lord saith.  
In like form of words saith S. Ambrose: Nolo nobis credatur: Scriptura recitetur. 
Ambros. De Incarnate. Domin. Sacramen. ca 3. Chrysost. in 2. ad Corinth. Homi. 3  Non ego dico à me, In principio erat Verbum, sed audio. Non ego effingo: sed lego: I would not, ye should believe us: But read the Scriptures: I say not of me self, In the beginning was the Word: But I hear it. I make it not: but I read it.  
Likewise saith Chrysostom, Oro vos omnes, ut relinquatis, quid huic, aut illi videatur: & de his à Scripturis haec omnia inquirite: I beseech you all, weigh not, what this man, or that man thinketh: but touching all these things search the Scriptures.  
Now, where as it pleaseth M. harding, to tell us of an Argument Negative from Special to General, and so to call us to the remembrance of our Logic: pleaseth it him also to remember. that the Argument, that we ground of S. Augustine's words, holdeth not, as it is here imagined, from Special to General: but from the imperfection, and weakness of the wisdom of man, to the stability, and certainty of God's Holy Word. And therefore the Old Learned Father Origen saith, 
Origen. in Hieremi. Homi. 1. Micro. in Psal. 86  as it is alleged before, Sensus nostri, & Enarrationes fine his testibus non habent fidem: Our judgements, and Expositions without these witnesses (of the Scriptures) have no credit. In like sort S. Jerome, Quamuis Sanctus sic aliquis post Apostolos, quamuis disertus sit, non habet Authoritatem: After the Apostles of Christ, notwithstanding some man be Holy, notwithstanding he be eloquent, yet he wanteth Authority. Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
August De Peccator. Merit. & R●mis. li. 1. ca 22.  Cedamus, & consenuamus Scripturae Sacrae, quae nec falli potest, nec fallere: Let us yield, and consent to the Holy Scripture, which can neither deceive, nor be deceived. For this cause, M. harding, S. Augustine not only in the matter that lay between him and Pettlianus, but also in all other matters what soever, so often appealed from all Fathers, and Councils unto the Scriptures.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 3.  
Likewise S. Jerome: All those things (saith he) which without the Testimony of the Scriptures, are holden, as delivered from the Apostles, be thoroughly smitten down by the Sword of God's Word.   

M. harding.  
Ye would fallen remove us from a good hold, I see well, which is the Authority of the Holy Fa●thers, of Ancient Traditions, and of the Universal Church. All these would ye to be of no force against Heretics. For ye know the Fathers and the Church to be against you, and that so long as they are believed, your Doctrine shall not be received, as always found to be new, and of private deu●se. If we were driven from these, ye doubt not but to match us well enough in the Scriptures. And as ye would handle the matter, I think so myself verily. For when all Authority and judgement of the Fathers and of the Church is shaken quite of in any controversy, by whom shall we be tried? By the Scriptures, ye say. But when both ye and we allege Scriptures to a contrary purpose, and when we vary about the sense of the Scriptures, by whom then shall we be judged? Perhaps ye will refer the judgement of doubtful matters, to the Holy Ghost. We refuse not tharbitrement and Vmpiership of the Holy Ghost. For the same hath been promised by Christ to the Church, to remain with the Church for ever, to teach what things so ever he said, to lead men into all Truth.  
And thus for judgement and trial of Truth, we shallbe returned to the Church and to the Fathers, by whom the Holy Ghost speaketh unto us, whose Authority and due estimation ye go about to remove from us.  
But let us see, what force ye bring to drive us from this hold. Making your battery against it, what shoot ye of but Wind and Paper? Your Artillery maketh a no● es, but it giveth no blow. As in the last allegation ye falsified the sense of S. Augustine, so in this ye falsify both the sense and words of S. Jerome. The words, as ye allege them, seem to be spoken against what so ever Tradition, of the Apostles. Which words, or any the like to such purpose, were never uttered by any Catholic Doctor of the Church, much less by S. Jerome. Look ye again and view better the place, ye shall say yourselves, that I find the fault of falsefyeinge in you not without cause.  
S. 
Agg●i. cap. 1.  Jerome in his Commentaries upon those words of the Prophet Aggaeus, Et vocavi siccicitatem super t●●ram, & super Montes: I have called the drought to come upon the Earth, and upon the Hills, etc. First she wing the literal sense accordingly as the Hebrew word there by him noted, signifieth Siccitatem, drought, them treating Mystically, as the seventy Interpreters have turned that word into Romphaeam, 
Gladius.  that is a sword, and understanding by the sword, the Word of God: thereof taketh occasion briefly to say, what this sword doth, how it destroyeth the negligent soul, which is expounded to be dry earth, and how it plaguethe Montaines that lift up themselves against the knowledge of God, whereby he meaneth Heretics. Of whom he telleth, how they flatter the deceived peoples with their Bread, Wine, and Oil, (by which he meaneth their Heresies) as it were with meats, and drinks, and refection.  
There Bread (saith he) any man may very aptly call it, the Bread of wailing, and their Wine, the madness of Dragons, and the madness of Serpent's incurable: And their Oil the promising of Heavenly things, wherewith they do as it were anoint their Disciples, and promise them rewards of their labours: which the Prophet detesteth saying, the Oil of the sinner shall not anoint my head. After this follow the words of S. Jerome which ye have falsified to the intent they might seem to serve your false meaning. Sed & alia quae absque Authoritate & Testimonijs Scripturarum, quasi Traditione Apostolica reperiunt atque confingunt, percutit gladius Dei. But the Sword of God strikethe also other things, which the Heretics (for of the● he speaketh) devise and feign of their own heads without the Authority and witnesses of the Scriptures, as though they came by Tradition from the Apostles. He that compareth this place with your flsified allegation, may soon espy great odds between them. For ye make S. Jerome to say, that all those things, which without the Testimonies of Scriptures are hold (so your allowed interpreter turneth, Asseruntur,) as delivered from the Apostles, be thoroughly smitten down by the Sword of God's Word. By this Sword of your Gods Word ye would quite smite down all apostolic Traditions at a blow. But thanked be God, that your Sword is a forged Sword, a paper Sword, a Sword that neither with Edge cutteth, nor with weight beareth down. S. Jerome putteth not all things, which we have by Tradition from the Apostles without the express Scriptures, to the Sword of God's Word. 
Scriptures and Doctors.  He speaketh not Generally. His word is, Alia, other things: and ye make it, Omnia, all things. Again he speaketh of such things as be devised and feigned by Heretics, of their own brain, without Authority and Testimonies of the Scriptures: unto which they give Estimation, as though they came by Tradition from the Apostles. These circumstances and exaggerations do ye omit, and say, that S. Jerome putteth all apostolic Traditions to that dreadful Sword of God's Word. Now what S. Jerome saith, we hold with it, and allow it well. But your saying we refuse, as falsely fathered upon S. Jerome. What he condemneth, we condemn. Neither can that place be justly alleged against us: For we invent not, no fame not any things of our own accord, or of our own heads, as though they were delivered by the Apostles besides the Scriptures: that is the part of Heretics, specially of the Tatians, as in that place S. Jerome saith. We find, devise, and feign nothing in the Catholic Religion. We do but keep and maintain things Devised by the Holy Ghost, and left to the Church by the Apostles, or by apostolic men, or by the General Councils, whose Authority is in the Church most healthful, saith S. Austin. But concerning the force which the consent of the Fathers had in the judgement of S. Jerome, it appeareth in his Epistle to Euagrius: where, by the Authority of the Ancient Doctors before his time, he proveth against an Heretic, that Melchisedech was a man of the Land of Chanaan, and not the Holy Ghost.  

The B. of Sarisburie  
feign would M. harding have his Reader believe, that we utterly despise all Holy Fathers. But we despise them not, M. harding, as may partly appear, by that we have already said. We read their works: we reverence them: we give God thanks for them: we call them the Pillars, the Lights, the Fathers of God's Church: we despise them not. This thing only we say: Were their Learning, and Holiness never so great, yet be they not equal in credit with the Scriptures of God.  
Thus also saith S. Augustine, 
Augusti. contra Cresconi. Gram. Lib. 2. Cap. 29. August. Ad Hieron. Epist. 19  Nos nullam Cypriano facimus iniuriam, cùm eius qua●●ibet literas, à Canonica Divinarum Scripturarum Authoritate distinguimus: We offer no wrong to S. Cyprian, when we sever any his Letters, or writings, from the Canonical Authority of the Holy Scriptures. And again, joining all the Doctors, and ●athers together, he saith thus: Ipse mihi pro his omnibus, imò supra hos omnes Apostolus Paulus occurrit. Ad ipsum confugio: ad ipsum ab omnibus, qui aliter sentìunt, literarum tractatoribus provoco: In steed of all these Learned Fathers, or iather above them all, Paul the Apostle cometh to my mind. To him I run: To him I appeal from all manner Writers (Doctors, and Fathers) that think otherwise.  
So likewise S. Jerome, 
Hiero. Ad Tranquillinum, To. 2.  Ego Originem propter cruditionem sic interdum legendum arbitror, quomodo Tertullianum, Novatum, Arnobium, Apollinarium, & nonnullos Ecclesiasticos Scriptores Graecos pariter, & Latino's: ut bona eorum eligamus, vitemúsque contraria: I think, that the Ancient Father Origen, in respect of his Learning, may be read sometimes, as Tertullian, Novatus, Arnobius, Appollinarius, and sundry other Ecclesiastical Writers, as well greeks, as Latins: that in them we may take the good, and flee the contrary. Of this judgement were S. Augustine, S. Jerome, and sundry others: whose words for shortness I pass over: yet were they not therefore condemned as despisers of the Holy Learned Fathers. We remove you not, as you say, from your hold, M. harding. This is nothing else, but a courage of your countenance. The Fathers, ye speak of, are against you. I trust, it appeareth already by your former writings, that in the Special cases, that lie between us, ye have but few Fathers to hold by.  
Ye say, We evermore call you to the Scriptures. This fault, I hope, is not so heinous. Christ hath commanded us so to do: Search ye, saith Christ, the Scriptures. 
johan. 5.  And S. Hilary saith unto the Emperor Constantius, Fidem, 
Interpretation of the Scriptures.  Imperator, quaeris? Audi eam, non denovis chartulis, sed de Dei Libris: doth youR Majesty seek the Faith? Hear it then, not out of any new scrolls, but out of the Books of God. He is rather to be suspected, that fleeth the light, and will not be judged by the Scriptures.  
When the Scriptures be dark, 
Hilarius ad Imper. Constantium  and doubtful, & are alleged of both parts, than ye say, ye refuse not the Vmpéereship, and judgement of the Holy Ghost. But ye add farther, The Holy Ghost is promised only to the Church. Now by your opinion there is no Church, 
Petrus De Palude, De potestate Papae, Arti. 4. Heruaeus de potest. Papae, ca 23.  but the Church of Room. And the Church of Room is no Church without the Pope: For one of your great Doctors saith, Potestas Papae solius excedit potestatem totius residuae Ecclesiae: The Pope's only power passeth all the power of the whole Church besides: And an other like Doctor saith, Papa virtualiter est tota Ecclesia: The Pope by power, and virtue is the whole Church: And thus your reason goeth round about, à Primo ad ultimum: Ergo, There is neither Holy Ghost, nor Interpretation, or sense of the Scriptures, but only in the Pope. This is, Summa Summarum: which thing being granted, what should a man seek any farther? The whole matter is at an end.  
It is true, As the Scriptures were written by the Spirit of God, so must they be expounded by the same. 
2. Petri. 1. Matth. 11. Apoc. 3. Actor. 16. johan. 6.  For without that Spirit, we have neither ears to hear, nor eyes to see. It is that Spirit, that openeth, and noman shuttethe: the same shuttethe, and noman openeth: The same Spirit prepared and opened the Silk woman's heart, that she should give ear to, and consider the things, that were spoken by S. Paul. And in respect of this spirit the Prophet isaiah saith, Erunt omnes docti à Deo: They shallbe all taught of God.  
But God hath not bound himself, that this Spirit should evermore dwell in Rome: 
isaiah. 66. Chrysostom. De Sancto & Adorando Spiritu.  but upon the lowly, and humble hearted, that tremblethe at the Word of God. Chrysostom saith: Qui propria loquuntur▪ falsò praetendunt Spiritum Sanctum: They that speak of themselves, falsely pretend the Holy Ghost. And again, Si quid praeter evangelium sub titulo Spiritus obtrudatur, ne credamus. Quia sicut Christus Legis, & Prophetarum impletio. est, ita est Spiritus evangelii: If any thing be brought unto us under the Name of the Holy Ghost, besides the Gospel, let us not believe it. For as Christ is the fulfilling of the Law and the Prophets: so is the Holy Ghost the fulfilling of the Gospel.  
Now, with what Spirit the Bishops of Rome have expounded unto us the Holy Scriptures of God, we shall show it hereafter, as fit occasion shall require.  
Here, you say, we have corrupted both the words, and the sense of S. Jerome: That we have taken, Omnia, in steed of, Alia: And that you have devised, and made nothing of yourselves: that S. Jerome meant not hereby the Traditions of the Apostles, but only the fond fantastes, and dreams of the Heretics called Tatians.  
Of all these things, we must needs confess, one thing is true. In deed we took, Omnia, in steed of, Alia: and so by oversight gave some occasion unto the quareler. How be it I doubt not, but the indifferent gentle Reader will soon pardonne that fault. It proceeded only of negligence, & not of malice. notwithstanding this want may easily be supplied by a sufficient Commentary. 
Matt. 15. Omnis.  For Christ saith, Omnis, plantatio, quam non plantaverit Pater meus Coelestis, eradicabitur. Every plant, that my heavenly Father hath not planted, shallbe rooted out. Here, M. harding, ye may borrow, Omnia, to help S. Jerome.  
Or, 
Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist. 8. Quodcunque.  if this like you not, S. Cyprian may tell you, Adulterum est, Impium est, Sacrilegum est, quodcunque humano furore instituitur, ut Dispositio Divina violetur: It is advoùterous, it is wicked, it is abominable, what so ever is ordered by the rashness of man, that God's order should be broken.  
It is true, S. Jerome speaketh not these words of the Traditions of the Apostles: It is true. Yet, M. harding, he speaketh these words of such fantasies, as were brought into the Church of God, and magnified under the name and colour of the Traditions of the Apostles. 
Euseb. li. 3. ca 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Anno. 1548. Illyricus de Sect. Pag. 109. In Confe. Petricovien. De Ceremoniis, Pag. 289. Copus Angl. Dial. 2. Pag. 194. Copus Angl. Dial. 2. Pag. 284. johan 16. 2 Cor. 1●  So Eusebius saith, The Heretic Cherinthus brought us in his own Monstrous devices, under the pretence of Revelations, as written by some great Apostle.  
Such, M. harding, be your Inventions, wherewith ye have of long time deceived the world. One of your companions the Suffragan of Sidon, at the late diet at Augusta, in the presence of the whole empire, doubted not to say, that your whole Canon word by word, even as it is now used in your Masses, came directly from the Apostles. Your Hosius of Polonia saith, that the Apostles appointed your orders of Monks. An other of your side saith, Christus Dux, & Signifer Vitae Monasticae: Christ was the Captain, and standard bearer of Monks life: Imagininge, I trow, that Christ was an Abbate. And yet afterward the same Doctor, either by some oblivion, or else upon some better remembrance, saith thus: Elias, & Elizaeus D●ces Instituti Benedictini: Elias, and Elizaeus were the first Captains of S. Benettes Order. And you, M. harding, have told us often, that ye have your Private Mass, your Half Communion, and I know not what else, all from the Apostles. And all this ye prove. God wot, by full simple conjectures, because Christ saith to his Apostles, I have many things to say unto you: but ye are not able to bear them yet: And because S. Paul saith to the Corinthians, I will order the rest, when I come. Hereby ye bear us in hand, that all your most trifling Vanities were brought unto you by S. Paul even from the third Heavens.  
And although it were true, that ye say, ye have not devised these things of of yourselves, but have received them all from the Apostles, and Holy Fathers, which thing your conscience knoweth to be most untrue, yet notwithstanding the same things so received ye have sithence foully defaced with sundry your superstitions. Ye have made them necessary to Salvation: ye have bound the people to them no less than to the Law of God: & so have ye made them snares of Christian consciences. Although the thing itself came from the Fathers, yet the abuse thereof came from yourselves: and for the same ye have taught the people to break Gods express commandment. 
isaiah. 1. Matt. 23. Matt. 16.  Thus have you blended Gods heavenly wine with your puddle water: Thus have ye strained gnats, and swallowed camels. This is the very Leaven of the Scribes, & Phariseis, which Christ calleth Hypocrisy. Therefore all be it the thing itself, ye have thus received, in respect of substance be all one: yet now, being thus abused, in respect of your Superstitions, and deformities, it is not one.  
The Apostles, and Holy Fathers, used Oil: yet they used it not, as ye do, for the Salvation of Body and Soul.  
Moses erected up the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness: 
Num. 21. johan. 3. joel. cap. 1.  Yet not to be adored with Godly honour, as it followed afterward.  
God commanded the people to fast: yet not with Hypocrisy, as the wicked fasted. And therefore God saith unto them, Non est hoc leiunium, quod ego elegi: This is not the fasting, 
isaiah. 1 & 58.  that I have chosen.  
God commanded the people to keep the kalends, and New Moons: Yet not with such Superstition, and Abuses, as the people kept them. And therefore God said unto them, 
isaiah. 1. Matth. 23.  Who required these things at your hands?  
God commanded sundry bathings, and Wasshinges: yet unto them, that most precisely used the same, Christ said: Woe be unto you ye Scribes, and Phariseis: in vain they worship me, teaching the Commandments and Doctrines of men.  
Yet you, M. harding, have infeaffed the Apostles of Christ, not only with the Substance of the things, which, ye say, ye have received by Tradition, but also with all your Abuses, Superstitions, Corruptions, and Idolatries: which ye have devised of yourselves. And therein ye well resemble the Tatian Heretics, of whom only, ye say, S. Jerome speaketh. But whether S. Jerome meant only, I know not what fantastical dreams of the Tatians, (as you imagine only of yourself, without proof, in particular naming nothing) or else also all such Superstitious Vanities, as we have often, and justly reproved in you, it may soon appear by these words immediately following: Omnem laborem manuum, 
Hieronym. in Aggae. Cap. 1.  & jejunia corum, & obseruationes varias, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, id est, humi dormitiones: All their hand Labour, and their fastings, and their Observations, and Usages, and hard sleeping on the ground. These and such other like be the things, which, men imagine, came from the Apostles, and are stricken & consumed with the Sword of God's Word.  
Thus, M. harding, notwithstanding your long Gloze beside the Text, seemeth to be the very meaning of S. Jerome.  
If ye will yet force the contrary, and turn all from yourselves to the Tatians, as you do, the very two lines next following must needs make you blush at your own error. The words are these, Haec autem universa, quae dixi, possunt de Ecclesiae Rectoribus intelligi: All these things, that I have spoken, may be understanded of the Rulers of the Church. Tell us no more therefore, M. harding, of your Tatians. For S. Jerome himself telleth you, he meant not only them, but also the Bishops, and Rulers of the Church. And a little before he saith, Inferrur gladius super Montes elevantes see adversus scientiam Dei: The Sword of God's Word is laid upon the Mountains, that lift themselves up against the knowledge of God.  
In this sense writeth S. 
Cyprian. Ad Pompeium.  Cyprian: Si ad Divinae Traditionis Caput, & Originem revertamur, cessat omnis error humanus: If we return to the Head, and beginning of our lords Tradition, all error of Man must needs give place.  
In like sense also writeth Tertullian: 
Tertull. De Praescrip. Hear.  Ipsa Doctrina Haereticorum cum Apostolica comparata, ex diversitate, & contrarietate sua pronuntiabit, neque Apostoli alicuius Authoris esse, neque Apostolici: The very Doctrine of Heretics compared with the Apostles Doctrine, by the diversity and contrariety, that is between that, and the other, will soon pronounce sentence of itself, that neither Apostle, nor apostolic man was author of it.  
Even thus it fareth, M. harding, with a great heap of your Doctrine. Ye say, ye have it by Tradition from the Apostles. Yet is it utterly void of all authority, or testimony of the Scriptures. And therefore, as S. Jerome saith, it is consumed & stricken down in the Conscience of the Godly, by the only Sword of God's Holy Word, as our eyes see this day: and being compared with the Apostles Doctrine, (the difference, & contrariety is so great) it easily bewrayeth itself, as Tertullian saith, that it never came from any Apostle, nor from any other apostolic Doctor of the Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 4.  
S. Ambrose also to Gratian the Emperor: Let the Scripture (saith he) be asked the question, let the Prophets be asked, and let Christ be asked. For at that time made the Catholic Fathers and Bishops no doubt, but that our Religion might be proved out of the Holy Scriptures. Neither were they ever so hardy to take any for an Heretic, whose error they could not evidently and apparently reprove by the self same Scriptures. And we verily do make answer on this wise, as S. Paul did: according to this way which they call Heresy, we do worship God, and the Father of our Lord jesus Christ: and do allow all things which have been written either in the Law, or in the Prophets, or in the Apostles Works.  

M. harding.  
Gratian the Emperor buckling himself as it were to encounter with the Heretic, at the first he giveth meaning to all to be ware of him, for that he endeavoureth to prove his false Doctrine, (namely for the first point, that the Son is unlike the Father) Versutis disputationibus, 
Cap. 2.  With subtle and crafty reasonings. He allegeth to that purpose, S. Paul to the Colossians, Cavere ue quis vos depraedetur pes Philosophiam: Beware that no man spoil you through Philosophy, and vain deceit, etc. For (saith be) these Heretics put all the force of their poisons in Logic, or Dialectical disputation, which by the opinion of Philosophers is defined, not to have power to prove, but an earnest desire to destroy and disprove. Having given this wholesome warning, lest himself might seem to use that, which he counseleth others to beware of: to withde awe the Emperor and all other from the guileful Logic of Arius, 
Ambres. De Fide Lib. 1. Cap. 4.  at his first entry he saith: I will not that thou give credit, Holy Emperor, to argument, and to our Disputation, (than follow the words. Whereof the Defenders take hold,) Scripturas interrogemus, etc. Let us ask the Scriptures, let us ask the Apostles, let us ask the Prophets, let us ask Christ: What need many words? let us ask the Father, etc.  
And to this point of our belief, which is very high and secret, is that saying of S. Ambrose to be restrained. But that for confirmation of the Truth in points which be nearer to common sense, and for confutation of those Heresies which be of less subtlety, of which sort these Gospelers gross errors be, to this end that we ought not to use the Testimonies of the Holy Fathers against Heretics, 
Untruth.  (for which purpose they allege this place:) S. Ambrose neither in all that Book, neither in all his works speaketh so much as one word.  
But contrary wise in sundry places of that work be allegeth the authority of the Nicene Council, as a Testimony of good force against the Arians, and declareth a divine Mystery to have been signified by such special number of the Fathers there assembled: saying, Sic nempe nostri secundum Scripturas dixerunt Patres: Even thus, according to the Scriptures, have the Fathers said. Seruemus Praecepta maiorum, etc. Let us keep the Precepts of our Forefathers, neither with temerity of rude boldness let us break the Hereditary Seals, (he meaneth the Doctrine sealed by the Fathers, and left to the posterity as it were by Heritage). Which of us will be so hardy, as to unseal the Priestly Book, sealed by the Confessors, and now consecrated with the martyrdom of many a one? Lo hear ye not Sirs 
* Nothing.  how much S. Ambrose is against you?  
And though he say, touching this Mysteries Let us ask the Scriptures, Apostles, Prophets, and Christ: yet thereby doth he not quite exclude the Fathers. He saith not, let us reject the Fathers. The Scriptures and the Fathers be not contrary: and therefore thallowing of them, is not the disalowinge of these. Who so ever maketh this argument, 
* Untruth.  which in your Word is implied, The Scriptures are to be asked, Ergo, the Holy Fathers are not to be asked, maketh a foolish argument.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The greatest fort hereof is answered already. S. Ambrose, ye say, by this appeal to the Scriptures, excludeth not the judgement of the Learned Fathers, but only the cavillations, and subtileties of Philosophers and Sophisters. For S. Ambrose himself is the same treaty often allegeth the Authority of the Fathers. All this, M. harding, is true in deed▪ notwithstanding there is a certain secret Untruth lapped in it. For S. Ambrose allegeth the Fathers, not as Grounds, or Principles, or foundations of the Faith: but only as Interpreters, or Witnesses, or Consenters unto the Faith: Which thing of our part was never denied. Now, whether S. Ambrose meant thus, 
Scriptures and Doctors.  or no, let S. Ambrose himself he the judge. 
Ambr. Ad Cratia. De Fide, li. 1.  His words be these, Sic nempe nostri secundum Scripturas dixerunt Patres: Thus have our Fathers said (not of themselves, but) according to the Scriptures. He allegeth the Fathers, not as having sufficient credit and substance in themselves, but only as Expounders, and Interpreters of the Scriptures.  
So saith the godly Father Athanasius: 
Athanas. De Humanitate Verbi.  Nos ista Hausimus à Magistris divinitùs afflatis, qui Sacros Libros evoluerunt: These things have we learned of our Masters (or Fathers) inspired from Heaven, which have Read and perused the Holy Scriptures. For S. Augustine very well saith, 
August. Contra Cresconi. Gramma. Li. 2 Ca 29. Hierony. in Episto. ad Ephes. Lib. 3. Cap. 5.  Secundum hos Libros de coeteris Literis, vel Fidelium, vel Infidelium liberè iudicamus: according to those Books of the Scriptures we judge frankly of all other writings, whether they be of the faithful, or of the Vnfaitheful. Therefore S. Jerome saith, Omni studio legendae nobis sunt Scripturae, & in Lege Domini meditandum die ac nocte: ut probati trapezitae sciamus, quis numus probus sit, quis adulterinus: We must Read the Scriptures with all diligence, and must be occupied in the Law of our Lord both day and night: that we may become perfit exchangers, and be able rightly to discern, what Money is lawful, and what is Counterfeit. S. Hilary saith, Hoc proprium est Apostolicae. Doctrinae, Deum ex Lege, ac Prophetis in Euangelijs praedicare: 
Hilari. in Psal. 65.  This is the very order of the Apostles Doctrine, in the Gospel to Preach God out of the Law and the Prophets.  
Otherwise, touching the discourse of natural reason, S. Ambrose saith, No Creature either in Earth, or in Heaven is able to reach the depth of these things. Thus he saith: Mens deficit: Vox silet, non mea tantùm, sed Angelorum. Supra potestates, 
Ambro. ad Gratianum de Fide, Lib. 1. Cap. 5.  supra Angelos, supra Cherubim, supra Seraphim, supra omnem sensum est: The mind is astoned: the voice faileth, not only mine, but also of the Angels. It is above the powers, above the Angels, above the Cherubius, above the Seraphins, and above all manner understanding. And therefore he saith, as it is alleged once before, Nolo nobis credatur: Scriptura recitetur: 
Ambros. De Incarnationis Dominicae Sacracramen. Ca 3.  Non ego dico à me, In principio erat Verbum, Sed audio: I would not, ye should believe me: Let the Scriptures be read: I say not of me self, In the beginning was the Word: but I hear it spoken. And again he saith in the same Book unto the Emperor Gratian: 
Ambros. ad Gratian. Imperator. Lib. 1. Cap. 7.  Facessat nostra Sententia: Paulum interrogemus: Let our judgement stand apart: and let us ask S. Paul the question.  
But M. harding saith, Whoso ever maketh this argument, which in your Word is implied, The Scriptures are to be asked: Ergo, the Holy Fathers are not to be asked, maketh a foolish argument.  
It seemeth no great point of Wisdom, M. harding, to upbraid others with folly without cause: God increase both you and us in all wisdom, and understanding in Christ jesus. How be it, our Argument, how so ever it hath pleased you to fashion, and to handle it, as we meant it, and made it, had no such Folly. Wherefore, what so ever Folly is now come to it, it is your own: it is not ours. For we deny not the Learned Father's expositions, and judgements in doubtful cases of the Scriptures. We read them ourselves: We follow them: We embrace them: and, as I said before, we most humbly thank God for them. But thus we say, The same Father's opinions, and judgements, for as much as they are sometimes disagreeable one from an other, and sometimes imply contrarieties, and contradictions, therefore alone, and of themselves, without farther authority, and guiding of God's Word, are not always sufficient Warrants to charge our Faith. And thus the Learned Catholic Fathers themselves have evermore taught us to esteem, and to weigh the Fathers.  
The Ancient Father Origen saith thus, as it is reported before; Ex Solis Scriptures examinationis nostrae discretio petenda est: The discussinge of our judgement, must be taken Only of the Scriptures. And again, Sensus nostri, & enarrationes sine Scripturis testibus non habent fidem: 
Origen. in Epist. ad Roma. Lib. 10. Cap. 16. Ex Solis. Origen. in Hieremt. Homi. 1. August. De Natura & Gratia, Ca 61.  Our judgements, and Expositions without witness of the Scriptures have no credit. Likewise S. Augustine, Ego Solis Canonicis Scripturis debeo sine ulla recusatione consensum: My consent without exception I own (not unto any Father, were he never so well learned, but) Only to the Holy Canonical Scriptures. His reason is this: Nam cùm Dominus ●acuerit, quis nostrum dicat, Illa, vel illa sunt? Aut si dicere audet, unde probat? For where as the Lord himself hath not spoken, who of us can say, It is this, or that? Or if he dare say so, how can he prove it?  
And therefore he concludeth directly and in like words with S. Ambrose: 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 96. August. De Pastorib. Ca 14.  Ego vocem Pastoris inquiro. Lege hoc mihi de Propheta: Lege de Psalmo: Recita de Lege: Recita de evangelio: Recita de Apostolo: I require the voice of the shepherd: Read me this matter out of the Prophet: Read it me out of the Psalms: Read it out of the Law: Read it out of the Gospel: Read it out of the Apostles.    

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division. 1.  
Wherefore if we he Heretics, and they (as they would feign be called) be Catholics, why do they not, as they see the Fathers, which were Catholic men, have always done? Why do they not convince and master us by the Divine Scriptures? Why do they not call us again to be tried by them? Why do they not lay before us, how we have gone away from Christ, from the Prophets, from the Apostles, and from the Holy Fathers?  
Why stick they to do it? Why are they afraid of it? It is God's cause: Why are they doubtful to commit it to the trial of God's Word? If we be Heretics which refer all our controversies unto the Holy Scriptures, & report us to the self same Words, which we know were sealed by God himself, and in comparison of them, set little by all other things, what so ever may be devised by men, how shall we say to these folk, I pray you: what manner of men be they, and how is it meet to call them, which fear the judgement of the Holy Scriptures, that is to say, the judgement of God himself, and do prefer before them their own dreams, and full cold inventions: and to maintain their own Traditions, have defaced and corrupted now these many hundred years the ordinances of Christ, and of the Apostles?  

M. harding.  
We do so. For they condemned those that went against the Tradition of the Fathers, and so do we. 
johan. 14.  The Scriptures consist not in ink and paper, but in the sense. Which sense the Holy Ghost by Christ's promise hath taught the Church.  
Epiphanius refutinge the Heretics which named themselves Apostolikes, 
Haereei. 61. Scripture nesdeth Speculation. Tradition necessary, because Scripture hath not all things. Recognition. Lib. 10.  saith, that the Scriptures have need of Speculation that is to wit, to be well studied and considered) to the end the force and power of every argument may be known. It behoveth us also (saith he) to use the Tradition: For we can not have all things of the Holy Scripture. Thus Epiphanius. By Tradition without doubt he meaneth the sense and understanding received of the Fathers. For that is the Key of the Word of God, as S. Peter taught, by report of S. Clement. This sense and understanding of the Law had the Ministers of the Law, to whom the Traditions of Moses and of the Elders came as it were by hands. Now we require you to admit this Tradition, that is to say, the Catholic sense and understanding of the Scriptures, which hath been delivered unto us by the Holy Fathers of all Ages, and of all Countries, where the Faith hath been received. And then we will call you again to be tried by the Scriptures.  
This have the Catholics laid before you oftentimes, and this do we show you in this Confutation. 
L●c. 10.  He that despiseth you, despiseth me, saith Christ of his Church. Ye despise the Catholic Church, and therefore ye despise Christ.  
What need so many questions Sirs? Your hot Rhetoric showeth more courage in word, than Victory in deed. Ye call us forth to the Scriptures, 
Great brags made by the Defenders, of th'assurance of the Scriptures.  as it were to the field. Ye strike us down with words, before ye come to encounter. To show your bravery in the mo●stre, ye refer your controversies unto the Holy Scriptures, ye report you unto the words sealed by God himself: but we the Catholics, as ye pretend, stick at it: we be afraid of it, we doubt of th● matter, we fear the judgement of Holy Scriptures, we prefer our own dreams and cold inventions. Well, now that ye have told your lusty tale, hear our sober answer. Often● times the true Scriptures are stretched forth to serve evil and false purposes. The jews went about by the Scriptures to prove, that Christ was not so much as a I●ophete. 
johan. 7.  For they said, 
* Untruth: For the words are otherwise.  Search the Scriptures, and see, that a Prophet riseth not out of Galiley. By the Scriptures they would needs show him worthy to die. 
johan. 19  We have a Law, quoth they, and by our Law he ought to die, because he hath made himself the Son of God The Devil by alleaginge Scripture, would have deceived our Saviour himself, and said unto him: Scriptum est, 
Matth. 4. De Fide. li. 2. c. ● Mark. 10.  It is written. The Arians were full of the Scriptures, and by the same, as S. Ambrose writeth, went about to prove, that Christ the author of all goodness was not good. It is written, quoth they, Nemo bonus nisi unus Deus, None is good, but only God. Likewise the Macedonians, the Nestorians, the Eutychians.  
Now in this case, yourselves doing the like, what may we do better, then honour the Scriptures, and seek for their right Sense and Understanding? Scriptum est, It is Scripture (saith S. Ambrose to the allegation of the Arians) I acknowledge, but the letter hath not the error: would God the Arians interpretation had not. Apices sine crimine sunt, sensus in crimine. The letters be without crime: the sense is in crime. 
Hilari. De Trinita. Li. ●.  From the understanding cometh Heresy, not from the Scripture: the sense, not the word, becometh to be a crime, saith S. Hilary, sithence than all standeth in the sense, let us agree first upon the sense and interpretation of the Scriptures: and then if we be not as ready as ye, come forth when ye list, upbraid us hardly, and say lustily, as here ye do, why stick they to do it? why are they afraid of it?  
As for the true sense and interpretation of the Scriptures, where shall we find it, but, as before we said, 
Matthae 7. johan. 4. isaiah. 59  in the Catholic Church? The Church having Christ remaining with it all days to the end of the world, having by promise of Christ the Spirit of truth, remaining in it for ever, having by Gods own ancient promise both the words, which the Father hath put in the mouth of Christ, and the Spirit which he put in him, whereby it may understand the meaning of God's words: we may not now seek for the true sense, understanding, and interpretation of the Scriptures any where, but in the Church. Your own Doctor john Caluine himself▪ 
In Epist. ad H●braeos.  whom ye follow and esteem so much, admonisheth very well, and saith, it is specially to be noted, that out of the Church there is no light of the sound understanding of the Scriptures. This ground being laid, on which each part must stand and be tried in, crow no more against us, boast yourselves no more: 
Untruth.  We fear not the judgement of the Holy Scriptures. Nay it is yourselves, that fear this judgement. For your own conscience telleth you that on this ground ye are the weaker side. If ye stand with us on this ground, ye shall never be able to defend your Master john calvin's doctrine touching Baptism, 
Untruth. For he debaseth not the Sacrament of Baptism  which h●●●aketh to be of so little force, against the manifest Scripture: Let every one of you (saith S. Peter) be baptized in the name of jesus Christ, to Remission of Sins. keeping this ground 
* Untruth.  ye shall be borne from your Doctrine touching Absolution, denying the Priest to have power to absolve penitentes by his Priestly Authority, but by preaching the Gospel to them, contrary to the plain Scripture: Whose Sins ye ●orgeue, they are forgiven to them: Whose ye retain, they are retained. If ye refuse not this ground, ye shall be forced to restore the Sacrament of extreme Unction▪ and the use of Holy Oil again, which ye have abandoned.  
For what have ye to say against the Scripture, 
jacob. 5.  It any sick among you? Let him cause the Priests of the Church to come in to him, anointing him with Oil, in the name of our Lord? Ab●dinge in this ground, ye shall be driven to forsake your Zwinglian doctrine, which putteth Signs and Figures I only in the Sacrament of the Altar, for the True and Real Body of Christ there 2 present. 
Three and dent Untruths.  contrary to the 3 clear Scripture, This is my Body. Being on this ground, ye shall soon give over the maintenance of the Doctrine of your special Faith, and of your justification by Faith only, 
jacob. 2.  as being contrary to the plain Scripture, Man is justified by works, and not by Faith only. To conclude (for, to show in how many points ye may be confuted by evident Scriptures, it were in manner infinite) if ye will admit this for a good ground, as ye midst needs admit: then shall ye not maintain the Presumptuous Doctrine of your certainty of Grace and Salvation, contrary to that S. Paul counseleth, 
Philip. 2.  With fear and trembling work your Salvation.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Whereas we make reasonable requests, that God may be umpéere in his own cause, and that all our controversies may be judged, and tried by the Holy Scriptures, M. harding thereto answereth thus: The Scripture standeth not in the Words, but in the Sense: and the same Sense is continued by Tradition in the Church. Otherwise, he saith, the jews, the Arians, the Nestorians, the Eutychians, and all other Heretics were always able to claim by the Scriptures. To conclude, he maketh up a great empty heap, of the force of Baptism, of Holy Oil, of Extreme Unction, of Absolution of Signs, of Figures, of Only Faith, and, as it liketh him to call it, of the Presumptuous Doctrine of the Certainty of Salvation: in every of which things, he saith, the Scriptures are clear of his side, and directly against us.  
To answears all these points in particular, it would require an other Book. But briefly to touch so much only, as shallbe needful, First, that the Substance of the Scriptures standeth in the right Sense, and Meaning, and not only in the naked, and bare words, it is true, and generally granted without exception, and needeth no farther proof. 
Hiero●y. contra Luciferian. Hilari. De Trivitate, Li. 4.  S. Jerome saith, Non in Legendo, sed in Intelligendo Scripturae consistunt: The Scriptures stand, not in the Reading, but in the Understanding. And S. Hilary, Non Divinorum dictorum, sed intelligentiae nostrae à nobis ratio praestanda est: We must yield an account, not of God's Divine Words, but of our own Expositions.  
But if that only be the right Meaning, and Sense of the Scriptures, that within these few late hundred years is cropen into the Church of Rome: and if it be all Gospel, what so ever it be, that arriveth from thence: and if they be all Heretics, and Schismatics, and Despisers of Christ, and of the Apostles, and of the Universal Church, that make stay at it, or cannot receive it, then is the whole matter already concluded: we shall need no more ado.  
Ye say, The jews, the Arians, the Nestorians, and other Heretics alleged the Scriptures. Yea verily, M. harding, and that even with like Faith, and in like Sense, and to like purpose, as you allege them now: as hereafter, I trust, it shall appear. By the way, for example hereof, in this very place, where you allege the words of the Pharisee is avouching the Scriptures, 
johan. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Chrysostom. Augustinus.  it may please you to remember, that either witingly, or of some error, and oversight, ye have manifestly corrupted the Scriptures. For, whereas you have translated the place thus, Search the Scriptures: the Phariseis said nothing else, but Scrurare, & Vide, Search, and see: and spoke not one word of the Scriptures. And although the matter import not much, yet to charge you with your own rule, which must needs be good against yourself, any small fault in God's Word must be counted great. In deed S. Chrysostom, and S. Augustine seem to supply this word, Scriptures, although it were not in the Text.  
touching the matter itself, 
Oil. Figure. Sign.  Nicolas Lyra saith, 
Nicol. Lyra in 7. Cap. johan.  Ho Verbum eorum simpliciter falsum est. Quia, si intelligatur de Prohetis generaliter, aliqui fuerunt nati de Galilaea: videlicet, Elizaeus, Tobias, & Deborah Prophetissa, & fortè plures alij; This word of the Phariseis is plainly false. For if it be taken generally of all Prophets, than were there certain of them borne in Galilei, namely Elizaeus, Tobias, Deborah, and perchance others more. In such sort, M. harding, even with like Faith and credit, you also have used, to allege the Scriptures.  
But whereto drive you all this long tale? Will you in the end conclude thus: The jews, and Heretics alleged the Scriptures: Ergo, faithful Christians may not allege them? Or thus, thieves have sometimes armed themselves: Ergo, True men may not be armed? Nay, we may rather say thus unto you: The jews, and Heretics alleged the Scriptures: What account then may we make of you, that flee, and condemn, and burn the Scriptures?  
Certainly notwithstanding the Phariseis, 
johan. 5.  and Heretics wickedly misalleged the Scriptures, as ye sometimes do to screw your purpose, yet for all that, Christ said unto them, Scrutamini Scripturas: Search the Scriptures: And, 
Cap. 9 Divisi. ●  as it is said before, the Catholic learned Fathers in all their cases, and controversies appealed evermore to the Scriptures.  
Where you say, The Scriptures are so clear of your side▪ and make so directly against us: would God ye would in deed, and unfeignedly stand to that trial. Your fancies, and follies would soon come to ground.  
touching your great heap of examples, of the Sacrament of Baptism defaced, as you say, by M. Caluine: of Absolution, of Extreme Unction, of Holy Oil, of Signs, of Figures, of Only Faith, & of the certainty of Salvation, which you call Presumptuous: first of the Sacrament of Baptism, M. Caluine every where writeth with all manner reverence, calling it a Divine, and an Heavenly Mystery, and the Sacrament of our Redemption: Wherein also sometimes he justly reproveth you, for that ye have so many ways, so profanely, and so unreverently abused the same. Of Absolution we shall have occasion to say more hereafter.  
touching your Oil, in deed in show of words, S. james seemeth to make somewhat for you. notwithstanding neither doth he call it Holy Oil, as ye do: neither doth he call it a Sacrament of the Church: nor doth he say, as ye say, it should serve for the Salvation of Body, and Soul: nor doth he teach you to salute it, and to speak unto it, as to a lively, and reasonable Creature, ave Sanctum Oleum, All-hail Holy Oil: nor with these words to minister it unto the sick: Per hanc Sanctam Vnctionem, & suam pijssimam Misericordiam, ignoscat tibi Deus: By this Holy enointinge, and his dear mercy, God Pardonne thee. To be short, it was a miraculous gift of healing, lasting only, as other like Miracles did, for the time: not a necessary Sacrament of the Church to continue for ever.  
As for the Objection of Signs, and Figures, for shortness of time, 
The. 12. Article.  I must refer thee, gentle Reader, unto my Former Reply to M. Harding. The words of Christ, which are thought to be so plain, the ancient Learned Father Tertullian expoundeth thus: 
Tertullian. contra Martion. Lib. 4. Figure. Sign.  Hoc est Corpus meum: Hoc est, Figura Corporis mei: This is my Body: that is to say, This is a Figure of my Body. Likewise S. Augustine, Non dubitavit Dominus dicere, Hoc est Corpus meum, cùm daret Signum Corporis sui: Our Lord doubted not to say, This is my Body, when he gave a Sign of his Body.  
To rehearse all other like Ancient Authorities, it were too long. O what triumphs would M. harding make, if none of all the Old Learned Fathers could be found, that ever had called the Sacrament, the Sign, and Figure of Christ's Body? But, as before he alleged an imagined Sense of the Scriptures without words, 
Only Faith.  so now he allegeth the words alone without sense. He should have remembered better, that S. Jerome saith, Ne putemus, 
Hierony in ●pist. ad Gala. Cap. ●.  in Verbis Scripturarum esse evangelium, sed in Sensu: Let us not think, the Gospel standeth in the Words of the Scriptures, but in the Meaning.  
Two other great quarrels M. harding moveth: the one of Only Faith: the other, as he calleth it, of the Presumptuous Certainty of Salvation. Wherein judge thou uprightly, good Christian Reader, how just cause he hath to reprove our Doctrine.  
As for the first hereof, 
Roma. ●.  S. Paul saith, justificamur Gratis ex Gratia ipsius: We be justified Freely of his Grace: we judge that a man is justified by Faith, without the Works of the Law: We know, that a man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the Faith of Christ. M. harding will say, Yet hitherto of, Sola Fides, that is, of Only Faith, we hear nothing. notwithstanding, when S. Paul excludeth all manner Works besides Only Faith, what else then leaveth he, but Faith alone?  
How be it, if it be so horrible an Heresy, to say, We be justified before God by Only Faith, that is to say, Only by the Merits & Cross of Christ, let us see, what the Holy Learned Fathers of the Church so many hundred years ago, have taught us thereof.  
S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. in ●pist ad Roman. Cap 4.  justificati sunt Gratis, quia nihil Operantes, neque vicem reddentes, Sola Fide justificati sunt dono Dei: They are justified Freely: Because working nothing and requiting nothing, 
Ambros. Eodem loco  they are justified by Only Faith through the gift of God. Again, Sic decretum est à Deo, ut, cessant Lege, Solam Fidem Gratia Dei posceret ad Salutem: This was God's determination, that, the Law surceasinge, the Grace of God should require Only Faith unto Salvation. 
Ambros. in Epist. ad Roma. Ca 9 Basil. De Humintlitate: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Theodorer. De Curandis Graecorum affectibus. Lib. 7. Nazia●. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Origen. in Epist. ad Roma. C●. 3. Li. 3. Hesychi. in Leuiti. Li. 4. Chrysost. in Epist ad Galat. Cap. 3.  And again, Sola Fides posita est ad Salutem: Only Faith is said, or appointed unto Salvation. S. Bastle saith, Novis se esse inopem Verae justitiae: Sola autem Fide in Christum esse justificatum: He knoweth himself to be void of True Righteousness: and to be justified by Only Faith in Christ.  
Theodoretus saith, Non ullis Operibus nostris, sed per Solam Fidem Mystica bona consecuti sumus: Not by any works of ours, but by Only Faith we have gotten the Mystical good things.  
Nazianzenus saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Credere solum est justitia: Only believing is Righteousness.  
Origen saith, Vbi est gloriario tua? Exclusa est. Dicit sufficere Solius Fidei justificationem: ita ut credens quis Tantummodo justificetur, etiansi Nihil boni Operis fecerit: Where now is thy boasting (of thy good Works)? It is shut out. Paul saith, that the justification of Only Faith is Sufficient: So that a man Only believing may be justified, although he have done no good work at al.  
Hesychius saith, Gratia ex Misericordia, atque Compassione praebetur, & Fide comprehenditur Sola: The Grace of God is given only of Mercy, and Pavoure: and is embraced, and received by Only Faith.  
I leave a great number of others, that have written the like, as well Greeks, as Latins. In steed of them all, S. Chrysostom saith thus: Illi dicebant, Qui Sola Fide nititur, Execrabilis est: Hic contrà demonstrat, eum, qui Sola Fide nititur, Benedictum esse: They said, who so stayeth himself by only Faith, is accursed: Contrariwise S. Paul proveth, that who so stayeth himself by Only Faith, he is Blessed.  
touching the words of S. james, if M. harding well considered the Equivocation, or double understanding of this word, justification, he might soon, and easily have espied his own error. 
Roma. 4.  For when S. Paul saith, Abraham was justified by Faith without works of the Law, he teacheth us, how Abraham was received into favour, and justified before God: Of the other side, S. james, when he saith, 
Certainty of Faith.  Abraham was justified by works, and not by Faith Only, he speaketh of the works that follow justification, & of the Fruits of Faith: Without which Fruits Abraham's Faith had been no Faith.  
S. Augustine saith, Non sunt contrariae duorum Apostolorum Sententiae, 
August. in. Li 83. quae. Quae. 76. jacob. 5.  Pauli, & jacobi: Cùm dicit Paulus, justificari hominem sine Operibus: & jacobus dicit, inanem esse Fidem sine Operibus. Quia Paulus loquitur de Operibus, quae Fidem praecedunt: jacobus de ijs, quae Fidem sequntur: The sayings of the two Apostles, Paul, and james are not contrary, where as Paul saith, A man is justified without Works: and james saith, Faith without Works is in vain. For Paul speaketh of the Works that go before Faith: James speaketh of the Works, that follow after Faith.  
If M. harding shall think, S. Augustine's authority herein is not sufficient, Thomas of Aquine will avouch the same. His words be these: 
Thomas Aquin. in Epist. jacobi. Cap. 5.  jacobus hic loquitur de Operibus sequentibus Fidem: quae dicuntur justificare, non secundum quod justificare dicitur justitiae infusio: sed secundum quod dicitur justitiae Exercitatio, vel Ostensio, vel Consummatio. Res enim dicitur fieri, quando perficitur, vel innotescit: james in this place speaketh of such works, as follow Faith: which works are said to justify, not as justification is the procuring of Righteousness: but in that it is an Exercise, or a shewing, or a Perfitinge of Righteousness. For we say, A thing is done, when it is perfected, or known to be done.  
Now concerning the assurance, or Certainty of Salvation, the Scriptures are full. S. Paul saith, There is no damnation to them that be in Christ jesus: 
Roma. 8.  The Spirit of God beareth witness to our Spirit, that we are the Children of God: I know, that neither Death, nor Life, nor Angels, nor Powers, nor Principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor Height, nor depth, nor duy Creature else shallbe able to remove me from that Love, that God beareth to wards me in Christ jesus our Lord.  
But for as much as these words perhaps have not the Sense of the Church of Room, without which, in M. hardings judgement, the Scripture of God is no Scripture, let us see the Sense, and Exposition of the Holy Fathers.  
Tertullian saith, Vt certum esset, nos esse Filios Dei, misit Spiritum suum in corda no●tra clamantem, 
Tertull. Contra Martion. Lib. 5.  Abba, Pater. That we might be certified, that we be the Children of God, he hath sent the Holy Ghost into our hearts, crieinge, Abba, Father.  
Clemens Alexandrinus saith, 
Clemens in Paedagogo. li. 1. c. 6.  Re vera Sanguis Fidei est Spes, in qua continetur, ut Fides in anima. Cùm autem Spés expiraverit, perinde acsi sanguis effluxerit, ultalis Fidei facultas dissoluitur: In deed Hope is; as it were, the blood of Faith: in which Faith Hope is contained, even as Faith is contained in the Soul. And when Hope is gone, then is all the Lively power of Faith dissolved, as if the blood were shed out of the Body.  
S Cyprian saith, Et tu dubitas, & fluctuas? Hoc est Deum omnin● non nosse: 
Cyprian. De Mortalita. Sermon. 4.  Hoc est Christum Credentium Magistrum peccato incredulitatis offendere: Hoc est, in Ecclesia constitutum, Fidem in Domo Fidei non habere: And dooste thou stagger, and stand in doubt (of thy Salvation)? That were as much as not to know God: that were as much as with the sin of unbelief, to offend Christ the Master of Believers: That were as much as being in the Church, in the House of Faith, to have no Faith.  
Prosper saith, 
Prosper, De promise & Praedictionib. Dei. Par. 1. Ca 16.  Securi diem judicij expectant, quibus in Cruce Domini gloriantibus mundus Crucifixus est, & ipsi Mundo: They, unto whom the world is Crucified, and are Crucified unto the world, wait for the day of judgement without fear.  
But to leave the Ancient Fathers of old time, and to put the matter quite out of doubt, One Antonius Marinarius in the late Council of trident in open audience said thus: Si Coelum ruat, si Terra evanescat, si Orbis illabatur praeceps, 
Concil. Tridentin. Act. 1. Anno. 1546.  ego in eum erectus ero. Si Angelus de Coelo aliud mihi persuadere contendat, dicam illi Anathema. 
Certainty of Faith.  O Foelicem Christiani pectoris fiduciam: If the Heaven should fall, if the Earth should vanish, if the whole world should come down headlong, yet would I stand pressed, and bold before God. If an Angel from Heaven would tell me otherwise, I would accurse him. O the Blessed trust (and certainty) of a Christian Heart.  
Certainly, M. harding, it were a very Presumptuous part, to say, that these Fathers, Greeks, Latins, New, Old, your own, and ours, were all Presumptuous. If it be so Presumptuous a matter to put affiance in the Merits of Christ, what is it then, to put affiance in our own Merits? S. Paul hath taught us to say, 
Galat. 6. Basil in Psal 32. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  God forbid that I should glory, but only in the Cross of Christ. S. Basile saith, Qui non fidit suis Meritis, nec expectat ex Operibus justificati, unam, & Solam spem habet salutis suae, Misericordias Domini: Who so trusteth not in his own Merits, nor looketh to be justified by his own Works, hath his only hope of Salvation in the Mercies of our Lord.  
So saith job in all his miseries, Etiamfis me occiderit, sperabo in eum. Veruntamen vias meas in conspectu eius arguam: 
job. 13. Psalm. 70.  Although he kiss me, yet will I put my trust in him: notwithstanding I will reprove my ways before his sight. So the Prophet David, In thee O Lord have I trusted: I will never be confounded. This is no Presumption, but a patient, and an humble waiting for the Redemption of the Children of God. It is most true, 
Philip. 2.  that S. Paul saith, We must work our own Salvation with fear, and trembling. But this fear riseth in consideration of our own weakness, and unworthiness: not of any distrust, or doubt in God's mercy. But rather the less cause we find to trust in ourselves, the more cause we have to trust in God. 
August. De verbis Domi. Sermo. 28.  Therefore S. Augustine saith, Praesume, non de Operatione tua, sed de Christi Gratia. Gratia enim saluati estis, inquit Apostolus. Non ergo hic Arrogantia est, sed Fides. Praedicare quod acceperis, non est Superbia, sed Devotio: Presume thou, not of thine own working, but of the Grace of Christ: For the Apostle saith, Ye are saved by Grace. here therefore is not Presumption, but Faith. To proclaim that thou haste received, it is no Pride, it is Devotion.  
Again he saith, 
August. in johan. Tracta. 22. Basil. De humilitate: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Non mea Praesumptione, sed ipsius Promissione in judicium non venio: It is not of my Presumption, but of his promiss, that I shall not come into judgement. S. Basile saith, Paulus Gloriatur de contemptione justitiae suae: Paul (presumeth, and) boasteth of the contempt of his own Righteousness. So saith S. Ambrose: Non gloriabor, quia justus sum: sed quia redemptus sum, gloriabor: Non quia vacuus sum à peccatis, sed quia mihi remissa sunt peccara. Non gloriabor, quia profui, neque quia profuit mihi quisquam: sed quia pro me Aduocatus apud Patrem Christus est: sed quia pro me Christi Sanguis effusus est: I will not glory, for that I am a just man: But for that I am redeemed, therefore will I glory: Not for that I am void of sin: 
Ambros. de jacabo, & vita Beata.  but for that my Sins be forgiven me. I will not glory, for that I have donne good to any man, nor for that any man hath done good to we: but for that Christ is my Advocate with the Father, and for that Christ's blood was shed for me.  
Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
August. Confess. Lib. 11. Cap. 7.  Quid retribuam Domino, quoed recolit haec memoria mea, & anima mea non meruit inde? What shall I re●der unto our Lord, for that I call to remembrance all these my sins, and yet my Soul thereof is not afraid?  
To be short, thus saith S. bernard: 
Bernard. in Canti. Cantico. Sermo. 61.  Vbi tura firmaque infirmis securitas, & requies, nisi in vulneribus salvatoris? Tant● illic securior hab●to, quant● ille potentior est ad saluandum, etc. Peccavi peccatum grand: turbatur conscientia, sed non perturbabitur: quoniam vulnerum Domini recordabor. Nempe vulneratus est propter iniquitates nostras: What safe teaste or surety can the weak School find, but in the w●●●des of our savour? As he is mightier to save, so dwell I there with more safety etc. I have committed a great Since: My conscience is troubled: Yet shall it not be shaken down: because I will remember my lords wounds. 
isaiah. 53.  For he was wounded for our Sins.  
Thus, M. harding, to be assured of our Salvation, S. Augustine saith, it is no arrogant stoutness: It is our Faith. It is no Pride: It is Devotion. It is no Presumption: It is God's promiss.  
But your whole Doctrine of the trust in men's Merits leadeth directly to Desperation. And therefore S. Cyprian saith well of you: 
Cyprian. De Simpli. Praela.  Asserunt Noctem pro Die: Interitum, pro Salute: Desperationem; sub obtent Spei. Perfidianis, sub praetex●u Fidel: Antichristum, sub vocabulo Christi: They teach● us Night in steed of Day: Dei struction in tleede of Health: Desperation under the colour: of Hope: Infidelity under the pretence of Faith: antichrist under the name of Christ.  
Now a little to view the grounds of M. hardings long discourse: whereas he so often and so earnestly telleth us of the Sense of the Scriptures, as if we had Scriptures without Sense, his meaning thereby is only to lead us away to the Sense of the Church of Rome: 
Alberius Piggh. Hierar. li. 1. ca 4. Ecki●s De Ecclesia.  Which Sense, Albertus Pigghius saith, Is the Infallible, and Inflexible Rule of Truth. Echius saith, Scriptura, nisi Ecclesiae Authoritate, non est Authentica: The Scriptures of God are not Authentical, or of credit, but only by the warrant and Authority of the Church. And Hosius in like manner, Apostoli, 
Hosius in Confession vetricovien. Ca 80.  cùm Symbolum traderem, nunquam dixerunt, Credo Sancta Biblia, aut Sanctum evangelium: sed dixerunt, Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam: The Apostles, when they delivered the Crede, they never said, I believe the Holy Bible, or the Holy Gospel: but they said, I believe the Holy Church. Thus now the matter is sure enough for ever. We have neither Scriptures, nor Sense of Scriptures, but only from Rome.  
I will not here report the unsavoury Senses, that they have imagined of the Scriptures. One example, or two for a taste may be sufficient. Pope Boniface saith thus, 
De Maior. & Obedien. unam Sanctam. Psalm. 8. Antonen. in Summa, Par. 3. Titu. 22. Ca 5. Hebraeo. 2.  Ecce duo Gladij h●c: Behold here are two Swords: That is to say, The Pope hath the power both of the Spiritual Sword, and of the Temporal.  
An other saith: Omnia subiecisti sub pedibus eius, id est, Papae: Pecora campi, id est, homines viventes in terra: Pisces maris, id est, animas in Purgatorio: Volueres Coeli, id est, animas Beatorum: These words S. Paul applieth only unto Christ, meaning thereby, that God hath avanced him above all Powers, & Dominions, and that all things are subject unto him. But the Roman Sense is far otherwise: Thou haste made all things subject unto him, that is to say, to the Pope: The Cat-tail of the Field, that is to say, men living in the Earth: The Fishes of the Sea, that is to say, the Souls in Purgatories The Birds of the Heavens, that is to say, the Souls of the Blessed in Heaven. I leave M. hardings own peculiar Expositions, 
M. Hard. in his Former Answer. Artic. 2 M. harding ● Articulo. 2. & 10.  Drink ye all of this, that is to say, as he gathereth in Conclusion, Drink ye not all of this: It is the Substance, that is to say, It is the Accidens.  
By such pretty Senses, I will not say, as S. Jerome saith, De evangelio Christi facitis hominis evangelium, aut, quod peius est, Diaboli: Of the Gospel of Christ, ye make the Gospel of a Man: or, that is worse, the Gospel of the Devil: I will not so say: 
Hieronym. in Epis. ad Gala. Cap. 1  But thus may I say with the Prophet Esal, Ye make Light Darkness: and Darkness Light.  
Yet must we needs believe, upon M. hardings Word, that the Scripture without the Sense of the Church of Rome is no Scripture. 
isaiah. 5. Hosius de expresso Verbo Dei.  And therefore Hasius saith, Si quis ha●eat interpretationem Ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo Scripturae, etiamsi nec sciat, nec intelligat, an, & quomodo ' cùm Scripturae verbis conveniat, tamen habet ipsissimum Verbum Dei: If a man have the exposition of the Church of Rome, touching any place of the Scriptures, although he neither know, nor understand, whether, and how it agreeth with the words of the Scripture, yet he hath the very Word of God. So saith Rabbi Abraham Hispanus, 
Rabbi Abraham.  speaking of the expositions of the Rabbins, Licet videantur nobis verba nostra esse vera, & recta, nobis tamen Veritas abijcienda est in terram: quia Veritas cum illis est: Not withstanding our Expositions seem to us never so True, and right, 
Scripture, Tradition.  yet must we throw our. Truth to the ground: For the Truth in deed is with them. Lyra likewise reporteth the common opinion the jews had of their Rabines: 
Lyra. in Deuteron. Cap. 17.  Recipiendu●r est, quicquid hoc modo proponatur, etiamsi dicant Dextrant esse Sinistram: We must needs receive, what so ever they lay unto us, yea although they tell us, The Right hand is the Left.  
Now, gentle Reader, that thou mayst the better see the constancy, and certainty of these Senses, and Expositions, whereunto M. harding laboureth so earnestly to have thee bound, it may please thee to consider these words of Nicolaus Cusanus sometime Cardinal in the Church of Rome: 
Nicolaus Cusanus De Author. Eccle. & Concil. Supra, & Con. Scripturam.  Non est mirum, si Praxis Ecclesiae uno tempore interpre●atur Scripturam uno modo: & alio tempore, alio modo. Nam lntellectus currit cum Praxi. Intellectus enim, qui cum Praxi concurrit, est Spiritus Vivificans. Sequuntur ergo Scripturae Ecclesiam, & non è converso: It is no marvel, though the Practice of the Church expound the Scriptures at one time one way, and at an other time an other way. For the understanding, or Sense of the Scriptures runneth with the practice: and that sense so agreeing with the practice is the quickening Spirit. And therefore the Scriptures follow the Church: but contrariwise the Church followeth not the Scriptures. For such kinds of Expositions of the Scriptures, S. Hilary said sometime unto the Arians, Fides ergo temporum magis est, quàm Euangeliorum: The Faith therefore followeth the time, and not the Gospel.  
This is the Sense of the Church of Rome, whereby only M. harding willeth us to measure, and to weigh the Word of God. But the Ancient Father Origen saith, 
Origen. in Matthae. Homil. 25.  Sicut omne Aurum, quodcunque fuerit extra Templum, non est Sanctificatum: sic omnis Sensus, qui fuerit extra Divinam Scripturam, quamuis admirabilis videatur quibusdam, non est Sanctus: quia non continetur à Sensu Scripturae: As what so ever Gold is without the Temple, is not Sanctified: so what so ever Sense is without the Holy Scripture, although unto some it seem wonderful, yet is it not Holy, because it is not contained in the Sense of the Scripture.  
To conclude, where as M. harding saith, we cannot understand the Scriptures without Tradition, the ancient Father Irenaeus saith, This is one special mark, whereby we may know an Heretic: These be his words: Haeretici cùm arguuntur ex Scriptures, 
Ire●a. Li. 3. ca 2.  in accusationem Scripturarum convertuntur, quasi non rectè habeant, nec sint ex authoritate, & quòd variè fint dictae, & quòd ex his non possit inveniri Veritas ab illis, qui Traditionem nesciunt: Heretics, when they be reproved by the Scriptures, they fall to the accusing of the Scriptures, as though either they were not well and perfit, or wanted authority, or were doubtfully uttered: or that they that know not the Tradition, were never able by the Scriptures to find out the Truth.    

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division. 2.  
men say, that Sophocles the Tragical Poet, when in his old days he was by his own Sons accused before the judges, for a doting and sottish man, as one that fondly wasted his own Substance, and seemed to need a governor, to see unto him: to the intent he might clear himself of the fault, he came into the place of judgement, and when he had rehearsed before them his Tragedy called Oedipus Colonaeus, which he had written at the very time of his accusation, marvelous exactly & cunningly, did ask the judges in his own behalf, whether they thought any sottish or doting man could do the like piece of Work. In like manner, because these men take us to be mad, and appeach us for Heretics, as men which have nothing to do, neither with Christ, nor with the Church of God, we have judged it should be to good purpose, and not unprofitable, if we do openly and frankly set forth our Faith wherein we stand, and show all that confidence which we have in Christ jesus: to the intent all men may see, what is our judgement of every part of Christian Religion: & may resolve with themselves, whether the Faith which they shall see confirmed by the Words of Christ, by the writings of the Apostles, by the Testimonies of the Catholic Fathers, and by the Examples of many ages, be but a certain rage of Furious and mad men, and a conspiracy of Heretics. This therefore is our belief.  

M. harding.  
The comparison which ye make between yourselves and Sophocles, gladly we admit. Yet we acknowledge, that as in many respects ye are like, so in some unlike. Sophocles was a Poet, that is to say, a feigner, and deviser of things, that be not true, but fabulous: Ye also are fainers, and devisers of novelties, and followers of New devices, that be false. Sophocles was a Tragical Poet: ye are Tragical Divines. A Tragedy setteth forth thoverthrows of Kingdoms, Murder of Noble Personages, and other great troubles, and endeth in woeful lamentations. Your Gospel invadeth Christ's Heavenly Kingdom the Church, it murdereth souls bought with a most dear price, it causeth a hellish garbotle in men's consciences, in the end it bringeth to everlasting weeping and gnashing of teeth. We take you not to be mad. Would God ye were not worse than mad. Were ye mad, ye should be tied up. Else were ye suffered to go abroad, for fear folk would fly from you. And then should ye do little hurt. Now whiles ye offer venomous kisses with sugared lips, whiles ye cover wolvish cruelty under lambs Skins, whiles ye hurt under pretence of benefit, wound under colour of a medicine, beguile unstable Souls with resemblance of Truth: neither stint ye to work mischief, nor others can beware of you.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O M. harding, Sophocles himself, if he were alive, were not able with all his eloquence to express the Tragical dealings of your Company. Your whole life, 
Marti. Ruceru●. Paul. Phagius.  and Religion is nothing else, but a Tragedy. You have ript up the graves, and digged out the dead, and practised your cruelty upon the poor innocent cackesses.  
Your Pope Stephanus took up Formosus his predecessors Body, chopped of his forefingers, 
Platina in Stephano. 6. Sabellicus, Ennea. 9 Lib. 2. Sabellicus, Enneade 9 Lib. 9 Beno Cardinalis  cut of his head, and threw out the naked carcase into Tiber.  
Your Pope john the twelfth cut of one of his Cardinals right hand, and an others nose.  
Your Pope Vrbanus the sixth thrust five of his Cardinals alive into sacks, and threw them into the sea.  
Your Pope Hildebrande poisoned six other Popes his predecessors, to make himself room to the Holy Seat. They are so skilful there, in these feats, that noman can tell, neither what to fly, nor what to take: nor whom to doubt, nor whom to trust. They have conveyed their poison, I will not say into their meats, or drinks, for that is over gross, & Common, but even into their Mass Books, into the Sacrament, into the Chalice. Camotensis one of their own side saith well of them: 
Heb 9 Agrippa. De Vaeni. Scientiaru●  Sine Sanguinis effusione non ingrediuntur in Sancta Sanctorum: Without shedding of Blood they enter not into that Holy place, the Holy of Holies.  
How be it, what spend I these words? It is not possible to say all, that may be said. They have inflamed Wars: they have raised the Subjects against their Princes: They have armed the Son against the Father: They have overthrown Cities, and Countries: They have deposed Kings: They have set their feet on emperors necks.  
These matters, 
Mad.  M. harding, be Tragical in deed. And herein standeth them whole practice, and Policy of your Church of Rome.  
Where you think yourself a sober man, in that you can so easily call us mad, and worse than mad, you may remember, that this kind of eloquence amongst you is ancient, and Catholic, and may well stand with your Religion. For so the False Prophet Semeias said, 
Hierem. 29. 4. Regum. 19  that Hieremte the Prophet of God raved, and was stark mad. So the wicked said unto jehu, of Elizeus the Prophet, What hath this mad Bedlam Body to do with thee? Even so they said of Christ, 
Marci. 3. Augu. in Psal. 6.  That he was mad, and spoke in fury, be knew not what. S. Augustine saith of S. Paul: Incidit in istorum sacrilegam dicacitatem: & ab eye, qui sanari nolunt, vocatur insanus: S. Paul is fallen into their cursed raising: and of them, that will never be made sober, is called a mad man. So saith the Ancient Father Origen, of Celsus the wicked Heathen: 
Origen. contra Celsum. Lib. 4.  Videamus igitur nos, qui juxta hunc insanimus: Let us therefore confider hereof, that in this man's judgement are stark mad.  
But, M. harding, wherein are we so mad? or what tokens of madness have we showed? Can noman either speak the Truth, or disclose your errors, without madness? But, I trow, it is even as S. Jerome said sometime: Delirabat, 
Hiero. Ad Pammachi. contra errores johan. Hierosolymit. Leo in Epiphan. Sermo. 5. Augu. in Psal. 33.  scilicet, qui in ruo Regno contra tuam sententiam loquebatur: He raved, and was mad, no doubt, that within thy Dominion spoke any thing against thy mind. So saith Leo, Insarris Magistris Veritas scandalum est, & Coecis Doctoribus fit caligo, quod lumen est: Unto Frantic Masters the Truth is a slander: and unto Blind Doctors the light is become Darkness.  
So saith S. Augustine of king David: Insanire videbatur: Sed Regi Achis insanire videbatur, id est, stultis, & ignorantibus: David seemed mad: But unto King Achis be seemed mad, that is to say, unto fools, and idiots.  
As for our part, 
Actor. 26.  we remember, what answer S. Paul made unto Festus in the like case: O good Festus, I am not mad: but I utter unto thee, the words of Truth, 
Hiero. in Epitaphio Paulae.  and Sobriety. Therefore we may comfort ourselves, as the Virtuous Gentlewoman Paula did, when she was likewise supposed to be mad: Nos stulti propter Christum: Sed stultum Dei sapientius est hominibus: we are judged fools (and mad folks) for Christ's sake: But the foolishness of God is wiser their men.  
But, 
Cyprian. ad Cornelium.  M. harding, S. Cyprian will tell you thus: Haec est, Frater, Vera dementia, non cogitare, nec scire, quòd mendacia non diu fallant: noctem tam diu esse, quàm diu illuce scat dies: O my Brother, this is madness in deed, not to think, or know, that (your) Lies cannot long deceive us: and that it is Night no longer, but until the Day springe. This in deed is very madness. And therefore Chrysostom saith, Qui in manifestam foveam cadit, non negligens dicitur, sed insanus: Who so falleth into a pit, that lieth wide open, is not said to be negligent, but stark mad.    
The end of the first part.   

The second part.  

The Apology, the first Chapter, Division. 1.  
We believe, 
span●  that there is one certain Nature and Divine Power, which we call God: and that the same is divided into Three equal Persons, into the Father, into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost: and that they all be of one power, of one Majesty, of one Eternity, of one Godhead, and of one Substance. And although these Three Persons be so divided, that neither the Father is the Son, nor the Son is the Holy Ghost, or the Father: yet nevertheless we believe, that there is but one very God: And that the smne one God hath created Heaven, and Earth, and all things contained under Heaven.  
We believe, that jesus Christ the only Son of the Eternal Father (as long before it was determined, before all beginnings) when the fullness of time was come, did take of that Blessed, & Pure Virgin, both flesh, and all the Nature of Man, that he might declare to the world the secret and hid Will of his Father: which will had been laid up from before all Ages, and Generations: And that he might full finish in his humane Body the Mystery of our Redemption: and might fasten our sins to the Cross, & also that Handwritinge, which was made against us.  
We believe, that for our sakes he died, and was buried, descended into Hell, the third day by the Power of his Godhead returned to life and rose again: and that the fourtethe day after his Resurrection, whiles his Disciples beheld and looked upon him, he Ascended into Heaven, 
Augu. Tract. 5●. in johan.  to fulfil all things, and did place in Majesty, and Glory the self same Body, wherewith he was borne, wherein he lived on Earth, wherein he was jested at, wherein he had suffered most painful torments, and cruel kind of death, wherein he rose again, and wherein he ascended to the Right Hand of the Father, above all Rule, above all Power, all Force, all Dominion, and above every name, that is named, not only in this world, 
Actor. 3.  but also in the world to come: And that there he now sitteth, and shall sit, till all things be full perfitted. And although the Majesty, and Godhead of Christ be everywhere abundantly dispersed, 
In Epist. ad Darsdanum.  yet we believe, that his Body, as S. Augustine saith, must needs be still in one place: & that Christ hath given Majesty unto his Body, but yet hath not taken away from it the Nature of a Body: 
Cō●ra ●utychen. Lib. 1.  and that we must not so affirm Christ to be God, that we deny him to be Man: and, as the Martyr Vigilius saith, that Christ hath left us as touching his humane Nature, but hath not left us as touching his Divine Nature: 
Tulgent. ad Thras●mūdum.  And that the same Christ, though he be Absent from us concerning his Manhed, yet is ever Present with us concerning his Godhead.  
From that place also we believe that Christ shall come again to execute that General judgement, as well of them whom he shall then find alive in the Body, as of them that shall be already dead.  

M. harding.  
In our Father's days before any change in Religion was thought upon, Christian people lived together in perfit unity. 
Neither is any man now ashamed of the Apostles Creed.  If account of belief had been demanded, none was ashamed of the common Apostles Crede. Every one constantly confessed, I believe in God the Father Almighty Maker of Heaven and Earth, and in jesus Christ, and so forth. But sithence Luther brought a 
a Untruth It was the Old.  New Gospel into the world, we have seen great diversity among men, not only of Ceremonies, and Administration of the Sacraments, but also of the 
b manifest Untruth: For we keep all one Creed.  Public Confession of the Faith. For as sundry Rulers, Countries, and common Weals received that new Doctrine: so their Preachers and Ministers have set forth sundry Credes, and Confessions of their Faith.  
S. Hilary in his time complaining there of, 
S Hilaries complaint of many Faiths. One God, one Faith.  Now a days there be (saith he) so many Faiths, as there be wills: so many Doctrines, as there be manners: so many causes of blasphemies springe up, as there be vices: whiles Faiths either are so written as we list, or so understanded as we list. And where as there is but one God, one Lord, one Baptism, and according thereto one Faith, we step aside from that which is the only Faith: and whiles more faiths be made, they begin to come to that point, that there be no Faith at al.  
But the manner of the utterance of your Faith is strange to Christian ears, 
The manner of the utterance of the defenders Faith strange to Christian ears.  who have been accustomed to hear, Credo in Deum, Credo in jesum Christum, Credo in Spiritum Sanctum: I believe in God, I believe in jesus Christ, I believe in the Holy Ghost. That other form of words, which you use, soundeth not so Christianlike. I believe there is a God, I believe that jesus Christ is the Son of the Father, I believe that the Holy Ghost is God. Although this form of words do express a right Faith, yet being such as may be uttered by Devils, and hath 
c Untruth. For the Heretics said, I believe in God, as well as did the Catholics.  always been uttered by Heretics their Ministers: the Ancient and Holy Fathers have liked better the Old form and manner, after which every Christian man saith, I believe in God, I believe in jesus Christ, I believe in the Holy Ghost. For this importeth a signification of Faith with hope and charity: that other of Faith only, which the Devils have and tremble, 
jacob. ●.  as S. james saith: wherein as in many other things these Defenders resemble them. S. Augustine in sundry places putting a difference between these two forms of words, upons john alleging S. Paul's words, To one that believeth in him who justifieth the wicked, his Faith is imputed to righteousness, demaondeth, what is it to believe in him? It is by his answer, Credendo amare, credendo diligere, credendo in eum ire, & eius membris incorporari: With believing to love him, with believing to go into him, and to be incorporate in his members, that is, to be made a member of his Body.  
As this Defender proceedeth in declaring the belief of his New English Church, he grateth much upon the Article of Christ's Ascension, 
The Article of Christ's ascension much grated upon ●y the defenders to evil purpose. In johan. Tract. 30. Oportet for Potest.  as the manner is of all Zwinglians to do. For their mind giveth them, thereby they shall be able to bring at lest many of the simpler sort to their sacramentary Heresy, and to think, that the Body of Christ, wherein he ascended into Heaven, and suiteth at the right hand of the Father, is so absent from Earth, as it may not be believed to be here present in the Sacrament of the Altar. Thereto he alleagethe S. Augustine, making him to say, that Christ's Body wherein he rose again, must needs be still in one place. In which treatise that Holy Father hath not the word, 
Untruth. For S. Augustine's word is, Oportet. S. Augustine knew no such Body in the Sacrament.  Oportet, that is, must needs, as this Defender allegeth, but this word, Potest, that is, may, as the books have that be not corrupted by the maintainers of that Heresy. And where as he saith, Ad Dardanum, alleged by this defender, though Christ hath given Majesty unto his Body yet he hath not taken away from it the Nature of a Body: this is not to be stretched to Christ's Body in the Sacrament, where, it is not after condition of Nature, but by the almighty power of his word. And although he hath not taken away from his Body the Nature of a very Body, yet may it please him to do with his Body, being God no less then man, that, which is besides and above the Nature of a Body. 
Matthae. 26.  So it pleased him to do, when he said, This is my Body. And so it pleaseth him it be done, 
Vuntruthe. There is neither such Institution, nor such commasidement.  whesoever the same Body is offered in the daily sacrifice of the Church according to his commandment and institution. 
Diversity of creeds  That Vigilius saith, 
Contra Eutychen Lib. 1.  How Christ hath left to be now in Earth. 1. joan. 1. Christ hath left us touching his humane Nature, but hath not left us as touching his Divine Nature: it is to be understanded of his visible shape, in which he showed his humane Nature, when he walked here on Earth, when he was so conversant with men sensibly, that as S. john writeth they heard him with their ears, they saw him with their eyes, they beheld him, and touched him with their hands. As touching his humane Nature in this sensible wise, 
Expositionis in Epist. johan. Tract. 10.  Christ hath left us, after which S. Augustine saith, jam non invenis Christum loqui in Terra: Now thou findest not Christ to speak on the Earth. This manner of Christ's humane Nature being taken from us withstandeth not, but that we may have the substance of his natural Body and Blood present in the blessed Sacrament in a mystery by the Almighty power of his word: which Faith these defenders travatle to impugn. And (as God would) the Penman of this Apology bringeth unware, as it seemeth, for confirmation of his sacramentary Doctrine, that out of ●ulgentius, 
Ad Thrasymundum Regem.  which overthroweth all that he went about to build against the real presence. That Father, as he is by him alleged, saith, Christum, cùm absit à nobis per Formam servi, tamen semper esse nobiscum per Formam Dei: That whereas Christ is absent from us according to the Form of a servant, yet he is ever present with us according to the Form of God. Whereby he meaneth, that Christ is no more here among men, as he was before his death, in Form and shape of man, in such wise as we see men live on the Earth. Which words because they seem to dash their whole purpose, 
Untruth. For Form and Substance are both one.  the Prelates of this new English Church have altered the sense of them, by shifting in this word (Manhed) in stead of (the Form or shape of a servant) which the Latin hath, and this word (Godhead) in stead of (the Form of God).   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I marvel, M. harding, that ye can publish so manifest Untruth without blushing. Ye say, that before these few late years, there was but one Form of Faith throughout the world. Yet being learned, & having travailed through the Ancient Writers, you must needs have seen the Apostles Creed: the Nic●ne creed: S. Basiles creed: Damasus creed: S. Hieromes creed: S. Cyprians. or Rufines creed: Gregory's creed: the creed called, Quicunque vult, written, as some think, by Athanasius, as some others, by Eusebius Vercellensis: the creed contained in the Hymn called, Te Deum, whether it were written by S. Augustine, or by S. Ambrose: every of these under several, and sundry forms. You know, that in divers of the Oldest Councils, as occasion was offered, so somewhat was either added to the Creed, or diminished, or altered: as it may appear by Eusebius, Socrates, Theodoretus, Sozomenus, Euagrius, Nicephorus, and others. You know, that S. Augustine unto Laurentius, S. Jerome unto Cyrilius, S. Ambrose unto the Emperor Gratianus, and others more in declaration of the Christian Faith, have not always used one precise form of Words: and that the Emperor Constantine maketh open Protestation of his Faith, as it is recorded in your counterfeit Donation, in Sense, & Substance agreeing with all others, that were Catholic: but in Words, far disagréeinge from all others, and peculiar only to himself. To be short, you know, that between your Mass creed, & the people's Common creed, as touching the Words, there was great difference. It were too long, to rehearse al. Neither was it necessary, to say so much, saving only to show the manifest vanity of your talk. To express one Substance of Faith in sundry forms of Words, I never heard, it was forbidden, saving only now at the last by this late Decree of M. harding.  
Where you say, the whole people before these few late years had one Faith, ye should rather have said, they were all taught by you in a strange unknown Tongue, to pronounce, as they could, a strange unknown Form of Faith. For, God knoweth, they understood not one word, what they said, nor scarcely one Article of their Believe. S. Hilary saith, of the people deceived by the Arians, as these have been by you, 
To believe In God.  Credunt, quod non credunt: Intelligunt, quod non intelligunt: They Believe that, 
Hilari. ad Constantium Imperatore●●. Coelius Rhodigin Antiquitat. Lib 3. Cap. 32. August. De cap. 〈◊〉 contra Dona●ist. Lib 3. Cap 14.  which they Believe not: they Understand that, which they Understand not. Cardinal Ascanius had a Popiniay, that was taught to say distinctly all the Articles of the Creed, from the beginning to the end. Yet, I trow, ye will not say, the same Popiniay believed in God, or understood the Christian Faith. For Faith is in the Heart, not in the tongue. S. Augustine saith, Fieri potest, ut integra quis teneat Verba Symboli, & tamen non rectè credat: It is possible, that a man may pronounce the whole words of the Creed: and yet not have the right Faith.  
In deed S. Hilary, of whom ye speak, worthily reproved the Arian He retiques, for that they had altered the whole Faith of Christ, not only in Woor●es, but also in Substance. But we having published sundry Confessions of our Religion, as the Multitudes of your Abuses, and Errors offered occasion, and that in sundry Countries, and Kingdoms, in such distance of places, and diversity of Speeches, yet notwithstanding in the Substance, & grounds of the Truth have evermore joined together, and never altered.  
Where we say, We believe, there is one God, M. harding answereth, He cannot well allow this Form of Speech. We should rather have said, saith he, we believe In God. Were not this Controller so importune, such simple petite quarcelles should not be answered. I could never have thought, it had been so great a sin, to Believe, that God is God Verily, M harding, if every of your Popes, and Cardinals had believed so much, I trow, Cornelius the Bishop of Bito●to in your late Council at trident would not so bitterly, and in so open sort have cried out of them, 
Cornelius Bitontinus in Concil. Trident.  utinam non à Fide ad Infidelitatem, à Deo ad Epicurum, velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent, dicentes in cord Impio, & ore impudico, Non est Deus: Would God they were not gone, as it were with one consent, from the Faith to Infidelity, from God to Epicure, saying with wicked h●rte, and shameless mouth, There is no God.  
If no Catholic Writer had ever used this self same Form of speech before, then might M. hardings quarrel seem to have some reasonable ground. But both S. Paul, and also many other Catholic Fathers have often used it. S. Paul saith, 
Hebrae. 11.  Accedentem ad Deum oportet Credere, Deum esse: He that cometh to God, must believe, that there is a God: And Hermes, S Paul's Scholar, commonly called Pastor Nuntius, 
Pastor Nuntius. Origen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in prooemio. Hilar. De ●rinitat. Lib. 10. Symbolum Caroli Magni.  Ante omnia crede unum Deum esse, qui condidit omnia: Before all other things believe, that there is One God, that hath made al. Origen saith, Primùm credendus est Deus, qui omnia creavit: first w●e must believe, there is a God, that hath created all things. S. Hilary saith, In absoluto nobis, & facilis est Acternitas, jesum Christum à mortuis suscitatum Credere: Our everlasting life is ready, and casi, to believe, that jesus Christ is risen again from the dead: Likewise Charles the Great in the creed published in his name, Praedicandum est omnibus, ut credant, Patrem, Filium, & Spiritum Sanctum unum esse Deum Omnipotentem: The Gospel must be preached unto all, to the end they may know, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is one God Almighty. To be short, even in our late Father's days, this was counted a Catholic Form of Faith, and was commonly taught in all Schools, unum Crede Deum: Believe, that there is One God. If this were then well spoken, and universally used, even in the Church of Rome, without rebuke, I trust, M harding of his Courtesy will no more blame us for speaking well. As for these Phrases (I believe In God, I believe In Christ) although in deed they be better, & more effectual, & carry more force than the other, 
Exodi. 14. Exodt. 19 Basilius de Spir. Sanct. cap. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  yet are they not, neither so peculiar, and special to God alone, nor so precisely used, as M. harding imagineth. For it is written in the E●odus, as it is noted by the skilful in the Hebrew tongue, Populus credidit In Deum, & In Mosen: The people believed In God, and In Moses: And God himself said unto Moses, as it is likewise noted in the Hebrew: Descendam, ut populus In te credat: I will go down, that the people mai● believe In thee. S. Basile saith, Baptizati sunt In Mosen, & crediderunt In illum: They were baptized In Moses, and believed In him. And Hosius saith, 
To believe In God. Christ's Ascension  Quid si In Sanctos quoque rectè credi docet Paulus? 
Hosius in Confessi. Petricovien. Ca 58. Socrates Li. 1. Ca 25. Paschasi. L. 1. de Spiritu Sancto.  What if Paul teach us, that we may also well believe In Saints? And they of M. hardings side have evermore well liked this Form of Speech, Credo in Sanctam Ecclesiam: I believe In the Holy Church. Wherein also perhaps they will allege these words of Socrates, and of some others, Credo In unam Catholicam Ecclesiam: I believe In one Catholic Church. notwithstanding beside S. Augustine, and others, Paschasius saith, Credimus Ecclesiam, quasi Regenerationis Martem: non Credimus In Ecclesiam, quasi Regenerationis Authorem. Recede ergo ab hac persuasione blasphemiae. Non enim licet, nec In Angelum Credere: We believe the Holy Church, as the Mother of Regeneration: But we believe not In the Church, as the Author of Regeneration. Leave therefore this persuasion of Blasphemy. For it is not lawful to believe, no not In an Angel. 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 29.  Likewise S. Augustine saith, Credimus Paulo, non credimus In Paulum: Credimus Petro, non credimus In Petrum: We believe Paul, but we believe not In Paul: We believe Peter, but we believe not In Peter.  
Hereby we may see, that whether we say, We believe that God is God, or, we believe In God, both these phrases are used of the godly, and are therefore both good, & Catholic. If M. harding find any want, or imperfection in our words, let him supply it with good favour: so he condemn not either S. Paul, or Hermes, or Origen, or Hilary, or Charles the Great, or other Catholic, and godly writers, as well Greeks, as Latins: who, as I have showed, have used the like. Certainly the General Confession of all our people, and of our whole Church, is this, We believe In God: We believe In Christ: We believe In the Holy Ghost.  
But M. harding saith, we grate over busily upon the Article of Christ's Ascension into Heaven. What then? Should we have left it out? Verily that would have been some good countenance to your cause▪ An● therefore when Pope Nicolas would have brought us your new Article of Trasubstantiation into the Crede, he should first have utterly removed this whole Article of Christ's Ascension. For these two Articles may not well stand together by any construction in one Crede. As for us, we have said nothing herein, but that hath often been said, and avouched by the Holy Learned Fathers. Damasus the Bishop of Rome, in his Creed grateth hereon as much, as we. His words be these: Devicto mortis imperio, 
Symbolum Damasi, apud Hierony. To. 4.  cum ea Carne, in qua natus, & passus, & mortuus fuerat, & resurrexit, Ascendit ad Patrem, sedetque ad Dextram eius in Gloria: Having overcome the empiere of death, with the same flesh, wherein he was borne, and suffered, and died, and rose again, he Ascended unto the Father, and sitteth at his Right hand in Glory. Which words S. Jerome in larger manner expoundeth thus: Ascendit ad Coelum, Sedet ad Dextram Dei Patris, 
Hierony. in explicatione Symboli, To. 4.  manente ea Natura Carnis, in qua natus, & passus est, & in qua Resurrexit. Non enim exinanita est Humanitatis Substantia, sed glorificata: Christ Ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the Right hand of the Father, the same Nature of Flesh, wherein he was borne and suffered, and rose again, remaining still. For the Substance of his humane Nature was not done away, but glorified. How be it, gentle Reader, for thy better satisfaction herein, 
In the sixth Article.  I must refer thee over to my Former Reply to M. harding.  
Here followeth a piteous outcry, that we have shamefully corrupted S. Augustine's words, shifting in, Oporter, in steed of, Potest. What new fancy is suddenly fallen into M. hardings head, I cannot tell. S. Augustine's words, as they be alleged by Gratian, 
De Consecra. Dis. 2. Prima. Oportet. Potest.  are these: Corpus, in quo Resurrexit, in uno loco esse Oportet: The Body, wherein Christ rose again, must needs be in One place. Here is not, Oportet, in steed of, Potest, as M. harding saith: but, Oportet, as it should be, for, Oportet. If there have been any corruption wrought herein, it hath been wrought by Gratian, well-near four hundred years ago, and not by us. 
Christ's Body in one place.  Yet is Gratian one of the highest Doctors of M. hardings side. And will M. harding make us believe, that his own Catholic Doctors would be so bold, to corrupt S. Augustine?  
As for this Verb, Oportet, if it were wanting in the place alleged, yet might it well, and easily be supplied of other places. S. Peter saith, Oportet illum coelos capere usque ad tempora restitutionis omnium: 
Actor. 3. cyril. in johan. Li. 11. Ca 3. Augustin. contra Faustem li. 20. Ca 11. Augustin. ad Dardan. Epist. 57  The Heavens Must contain, or hold him, until the time, that all things be restored. So saith Cyrillus, Christus non poterat cum Apostolis versari in Carne, postquàm Ascendisset ad Patrem: Christ could not be conversant with his Apostles in the Flesh, after he had Ascended unto the Father. Likewise saith S. Augustine, Christus secundum Praesentiam Corporalem in Sole, in Luna, & in Cruce simul esse non potuit: Christ, according to the Presence of his Body, could not be in the Some, in the Moon, and on the Cross at one time. And again, Ne dubites, Christum esse in aliquo loco Coeli, propter Veri Corporis modum: Doubt not, but Christ is in some One Place of Heaven, because of the measure or form of a very Body. Therefore the Old Learned Father Origen saith, Non est Homo, qui est ubicunque duo vel tres in eius nomine fuerint congregati: 
Origen. in Matthae. tracta. 32.  neque Homo nobiscum est omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi: neque congregatis ubique fidelibus Homo est praesens: sed virtus Divina, quae erat in Christo: It is not Christ, as being Man, that is where so ever two or three be gathered together in his name: neither Christ, as being Man, is with us all days until the worlds end: nor Christ, as being Man, is Present with the Faithful every where gathered together: but that Divine power (or Nature) that was in Christ. And for that cause S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. in Psalm. 46.  Videte Ascendentem: Credit in Absentem: Sperate Venientem: Sed tamen per Mis●ricordiam occultam etiam sentite Praesentem: See you Christ Ascending into Heaven: Believe in him being Absent: Trust in Christ, that is to come: And yet by his secret Mercy feel him Present. Thus, M. harding, thus have the Old Catholic Learned Fathers used tograte, as ye term it, upon the Article of Christ's Ascension.  
You say, S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus, spoke not of Christ's Body, as it is now Present in the Sacrament. No marvel. For S. Augustine never understood any such kind of Presence. And who taught you, M. harding, that Christ hath such change of divers Bodies: of one manner in the Sacrament, and of an other manner in Heaven? Christ's Blessed Body, when it was borne of the Virgin, when it died, when it rose again, when it Ascended into Heaven, was one, and uniform. How became it afterward so diverse, and so unlike itself? If either Christ, or the Apostles, or the ancient Fathers have thus taught you, why are they not alleged? If they have not thus taught you, how came you by this knowledge? Or if ye say, ye know, that they knew not, who will believe you?  
Ye tell us, that the Body of Christ in Heaven hath the whole Stature, and Form, and Proportion of a Man. This is true: It is the Doctrine of the Apostles, and of the ancient Doctors of the Church. But ye tell us farther of yourself, that the Body of Christ in the Sacrament is utterly void of all manner either Stature, or Form, or Proportion: that is to say, is neither long, nor short: nor high, nor low: nor thick, nor thin: &, being as you say, a very Natural Body, yet hath neither likeness, nor shape of a Body. This is your Doctrine, M. harding: and the more unlikely to be true, the more likely to be yours.  
Such fantastical imaginations the Arian Heretics sometime had of the Godhead of Christ. 
Athanas. contra Arianos Sermane 3.  For thus they wrote thereof, as saith Athanasius: Creatura est: sed non ut ulla ex rebus creatis: Opus est: sed non ut ullum ex operibus: Res condita est: sed non ut ulla ex rebus conditis: It is a Creature: but not as any other of things created: It is a thing wrought: but not as any other thing, that ever was wrought: etc.  
But what saith Athanasius himself to all these fantasies? his answer is this: jam videtis vafritiem, & dolos istius Haereseos: quae non ignara, quàm amarulenta sit ista sua malitia, 
Form and Substance.  fotos quaerit, & ●●nocinium sibi 〈◊〉 ex verborum disertitudine: Now ye see the crookedness, and ●subtletie of this Haresae: which knowing her own malice how 〈◊〉 it is, borowith some he wa● and colo●●e by sleight of words.  
This Flavianus repreneth the Heretic Eutyches, 
Epistola Flaviani ad Leon. inter Leon. Epistolas.  Adiecit & aliam 〈…〉 Corpus Domini quod en Maria factum est, non esse nostrae Substantiae; He added 〈◊〉 in other wickedness, saying, that the Body of Christ, that was borne of Mary, is not now of our Substance.  
〈…〉 the ma●er thus, Caro Christi ipsa est, per Essentiam: non ipsa per Gloria●●: 
Leo. De Resurrect. Domini. Sermo. 1.  The Flesh of Christ in Substance is now the same, it was before: but 〈◊〉 Glory it is not the same.  
Noman hereof writeth either more plainly, or more directly, then S. Augustine. 
Augustin. ad Dardanum epiststol. 57  His words be these, Christus sic Venturus est, quemadmodum ire visus est in Ceolum, id est, in eadem Carnis Forma, atque Substantia: Cui profectò. Immortalitatem dedit, Na●turam non abstulit. Secundum hanc Formam non est putandus ubique diffusus. Cavendum est enim, ne ita Divinitatem astruamus Hominis, ut Veritatem Corporis auferamus: Christ shall come again (to judge) even as he was seen going into Heaven, that is to say, in the self same Form, and Substance of his Flesh: Unto which Flesh undoubtedly he hath given Immortality: but he hath not taken from it the Nature of Flesh. For we must take heed, we do not so maintain the Godhead of Christ's Humanity, that we deny the Truth of his Body.  
And where ye fantasy, that the Body of Christ in the Sacrament hath in itself neither Form, nor Proportion, nor Limitation of place, nor Distinction of parts, 
Augustin. in ead. epist. ad Dardanum.  S. Augustine telleth you, Spatia locorum tolle Corporibus, & nusquam erunt: & quia nusquam erunt, nec erunt. Tolle ipsa Corpota qualitatibus Corporun, non erit, ubi sint: & ideo necesse est, ut non sint: Take away from Bodies Limitation of place, and the Bodies will be no where: and because they be nowhere, they will be nothing. Take away from Bodies the qualities of Bodies, there will be no place for them to be in: and therefore the same Bodies must needs be no Bodies at al. Hereof we may conclude, that the Body of Christ, which you have imagined to be contained Grossly, and Carnally in the Sacrament, for as much as, by your own Confession, it hath neither Quality, nor Quantity, nor Form, nor Place, nor Proportion of Body, therefore, by S. Augustine's Doctrine, it is no Body.  
Here it is a world to see, what pretty sport M. harding maketh himself with the poor Penman of this Apology. As God would, the Simple Body unwares alleged Fulgentius clean against himself. For the words of Fulgentius be these: Christus, cùm Absit à nobis per Formam servi, tamen semper est nobiscum per Formam Dei: Whereas Christ is Absent from us by the Form of a Servant, yet is he evermore Present with us by the Form of God. Whereby, saith M. hardings Commentary, he meaneth, that Christ is no more here among us, in Form, and Shape of Man, in such wise, as we see men live in the Earth. And these words (saith he) dash their whole purpose: and therefore the Prelates of this new English Church, have altered the sense of them, by shifting in this word (Manhood) instead of (the Form of a Servant): and this word (Godhead) in steed of (the Form of God).  
I beseech thee, Gentle Reader, spare me a little thine indifferent ear, least in these misty clouds of M. hardings Distinctions, thou happen to wander, and lose thy way. All this great ado riseth only of some notable difference, that is fancied to be between these two words. Form, and, Substance. For M. harding would feign have thee believe, that the Substance of Christ's Body is in many places: but the Form of the same Body can be only in one place, & not in many.  
If I should demand M. harding this question by the way, wherefore Christ's Body in Form may not as well be in many places together, as the same in Substance: or how he knoweth it: or what Doctor, or Father ever taught it: or how we may be well assured of it: perhaps he would take a day, to consider it better. For thus a man might put him in mind of the grounds of his Religion: Sir, ye know, God is Omnipotent, and his power Infinite. Ye may not make him thrall, & subject to your senses: That were Natural Reason that were Infidelity. Christ is as well ●able to dispose of the Form of his Body, as of the substance: and can as well present the one in many places, as the other. How be it, thus much only by the way.  
But now, what i● all this great imagined Difference be no Difference▪ What if these two words, Form, and Substance, as they be used by Fulgentius, be all one? What then will M. harding do with his pretty Gloze?  
Verily Athanalius saith thus: 
a Athanas. De Definitionib.  Na●●ura, Essentia. Genus, Forma unum sunt: Nature, Substance, Kind and Form be all One thing. Leo saith, 
b Leo episio. 97. Cap. 3.  Quid est, In Forma Dei: in Natura Dei: What is it, To be in the Form of God? He answereth, It is, To be in the Nature of God. Chrysostom saith, 
c Chrysostom. ad Philippen. Homi. 6.  Forma Dei, Natura Dei est: The Form of God, is y● Nature of God. S. Augustine saith, 
d Augustian. De Tempor. Sermo. 177. De Ascetsio. Sermo. 4.  Secundum Formam Dei Christus ipse de se loquitur▪ Ego & Pater unum sumus: As concerning the Former of God, Christ himself saith of himself, I and my Father are both One. 
e Augustin. epist. 177.  Likewise again he saith, una est Forma, quia una est Divinitas: The Form is one, because the Godhead is One.  
In like sort of the Form of a Servant, 
f Leo. epic. 97. Cap. 3.  Leo saith, Quaero quid sit Formam servi accipere? Sine dubio Perfectionem Naturae, & Conditionis Humanae: What is it, To take the Form of a Servant? He answereth, Doubtless it is, To take the perfection of Nature, and state of man. 
g Chrysostom. ad Philippen. Homi. 6.  Chrysostom saith, Forma servi Omnino est Natura servi: The Form of a Servant verily is the Nature of a Servant. 
h Augustin. in johan. tract. 40.  S. Augustine saith, Quando de Forma servi in Christo cogitas, Humanam Effigiem cogita, si est in te Fides: Whe●● thou thinkest of the Form of a Servant in Christ, think of the Shape of a man, if there be any Faith in thee. 
i Augustin. De Essentia Divinitatis.  Again, Christum secundum Humanitatem, Visibilem, Corporeum, Localem, atque omnia membra Humana veraciter habentem credere convenit, & confiteri: We must believe, and confess, that Christ according to his Humanity, is Visible, hath the Substance and Properties of a Body, is contained in Place, and verily hath all the members, and the whole Proportion of a man. To leave all others, 
k Haimo, in epist. ad Philip. ca 2.  Haimo saith, Forman servi accepit, id est, in Veritate Hominem accepit: He took the Form of a Servant, that is to say, In very Truth he took Man.  
Ye see, M. harding, by these Testimonies of the Ancient Learned Fathers, far contrary to your vain Distinction, that the Form of God is nothing else, but God: & the Form of Man is nothing else, but Man. Wherefore then have you thus devised us this new Difference? Wherefore say you of your own head, the Form, & Substance be so contrary, seeing the Catholic Fathers say, they be both One? Or wherefore be you so busy, to trouble the Penman without cause? Certainly S. Augustine joineth Form and Substance both together, 
Augustin. ad Dardan. epist. 57  & by the one expoundeth the other: In eadem Forma, atque Substantia: In the same Form, and Substance: and again expoundeth the same Form, Veritatem Corporis: The Truth of a Body.  
By these it is plain, that when Fulgentius saith, the Form of God, he meaneth thereby the Substance, the Nature, & the Divinity of God: And when he saith, the Form of a Servant, he meaneth likewise, the Nature▪ the Substance, the Truth, the Perfection, & the Very Manhood of a Man. And the whole drift of his discourse is this, that Christ being both God, and Man, by the Nature, and Substance of his Godhead is everywhere: but by the Nature, and Substance of his Manhood, & Truth of his Body, is only in one place, and not in more: agreeing therein with these words of S. Augustine before rehearsed, 
De conse. dist 2. Prima.  Corpus, in quo Resurrexit, in uno Loco esse Oportet: The Body, wherein he rose again, must needs be in ove Place.  
Here are we terribly charged with guileful dealing, with a special note also in the Margin, Fulgentius foe why falsified. We have shifted in this word, Manhed, in steed of, 
Form of Man, ctc.  the Form of a Servant: and this word Godhead, in steed of, the Form of God. And therefore both the Penman, and the Prelates of our New clergy must needs be brought forth before the bar.  
I will not here tell you, M. harding, how lewdly ye have demeaned yourself towards her, whom it liketh you so often, and so scornfully to call the Lady Interpreter: a Lady, I will not say, of what Learning, virtue, and gravity: but certainly, as far from all unwoomanly Presumption, wherewith ye so rudely touch her, as you are from all manly modesty: and for aught, that may appear by these toys, and trifles, ye have sent us over, as full of wisdom, as you of folly. I beseech you, call your words again to mind, if you can without blushing: So roughly to handle so soft a Creature. This Phrase of speech your very friends have much misliked, and, as it is in deed, so in plain words they call it Ruffianrie, a virtue, although much agreeable to your Profession, yet unmeet for a man, either of learning, or of sober wisdom. But this fault, among many others, as I have said, I will dissemble. Although your whole Book be utterly void of Divinity, yet at the least some sense of Humanity had been commendable.  
But the Prelates of this New clergy (you say) have foully falsified both the words, & the sense of Fulgentius. And wherein, M. Harding? Forsooth in steed of these words, The Form of Man, &, The Form of God, for the better understanding of the unlearned, they have used these words, as more commonly known, Godhead, and Manhed. If this be so fault, wherefore then is the Old Father, 
Vigilius, Li. ●. Contra Eu●ych●tem.  & Martyr Vigilius suffered thus to say, Dei Filius secundum Humanitatem suam recessit à nobis; Secundum Divinitatem suam semper est nobiscum: The Son of God according to his Manhed is departed from us: according to his Godhead is ever with us? Or again, Christus est ubique secundum Naturam Divinitatis suae: & loco continetur secundum Naturam Humanitatis suae: Christ is in all places according to the Nature of his Godhead: and is contained in One place, according to the Nature of his Manhed.  
Wherefore doth Cyrillus say, Secundum Carnem Solam abiturus Cratander: Adest autem semper virtue Deitatis: 
cyril. in johan. li. 9 ca 21. Gregor. De Pascha. Homi. 30.  According to the Flesh only he would depart: But by the power of his Godhead he is ever present. Wherefore doth Gregory say. Verbum Incarnatum Manet, & Recedit: Manes Divinitace, Recedit Corpore: The word Incarnate both abideth with us, and departeth from us. It abideth with us by the Godhead: It departeth from us by the Body (or Manhed?) Wherefore doth S. Augustine say, Ibat per id, quod Homo erat: Manebat per id, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 78.  quod Deus erat. Ibat per id, quod uno Loco erat: Manebat per id, quod ubique erat: Christ departed by that he was Man: and abode by that he was God. He departed by that, that was in One Place: He abode by that, that is in all Places.  
If ye will yet stand in doubt, what these Holy Fathers meant by the Manhed of Christ, that departed from us, let S. Augustine open both his own, and their meanings. Thus he writeth in express & plain words touching the same: Secundum Carnem, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 50.  quam Verbum assumpsit: secundum id, quòd de Virgin natus est: Secundum id, quòd à judaeis prehensus est: quòd ligno confixus: quòd de Cruce depositus: quod linteis involutus: quòd in sepulchro conditus: quòd in Resurrectione manifestatus, me non semper habebitis vobiscum: According to the Flesh, that the Word received: according to that, he was borne of the Virgin: according to that, he was taken of the jews: According to that, he was nailed to the Tree, taken down from the Cross, lapte in a sheet, laid in the grave, and was declared in his Resurrection (these words are true) Ye shall not have me always with you. 
Augustin. in Sermo. in feri. 2. Paschat.  Likewise again he saith, Dominus noster absentavit se Corpore ab omni Ecclesia, & Ascendit in Coelum: Our Lord, as touching his Body, Absented himself from his whole Church, and Ascended into Heaven.  
To be short, if it be so heinous an error in this case to use these words, Godhead, and Manhed, 
Fulgentius ad Regem Thra●●mun Li. 2.  wherefore is not Fulgentius himself reproved for so often using the same? These be his words, Secundum Humanitatem suam, Localiter erat in Terra: 
The Holy Ghost is God.  Secundum Divinitatem, & Coelum implevit, & Terram. Vera Humanitas Christi Localis es: Vera Divinitas semper immensa est. Caro Christi absque dubitatione Localis est: Divinitas tamen eius ubique semper est. Permansit in Christo Immensa Divinitas: Suscepta est ab eo Localis Humanitas. Quomodò Ascendit in Coelum, nisi quia Localis, & Verus est Homo? Quomodò adest Fidelibus, nifis quia idem Immensus, & Verus est Deus? Christ according to his Manhood, was placed in Earth: but according to his Godhead he filled both Heaven, and Earth. The Manhood of Christ is contained in Place: The Godhead of Christ is Infinite, and in all places. The Pleash of Christ is doubtless in (One) place: The Godhead of Christ is for ever in every place. There remained still in Christ the Infinite Godhead: There was received of him a Local Manhood. How Ascended he into Heaven, saving that he is very Man contained in Place? How is he present with the Faithful, saving that he is Infinite, and True God? Last of all he saith, unus idemque Christus, Secundum Humanam Substantiam, aberat Coelo, cùm esset in Terra: & dereliquit Terram, cùm Ascendisset in Coelum: Christ being One, accodinge to the Substance of his Manhood, was absent from Heaven, when he was in Earth: and forsook the Earth, when he Ascended into Heaven.  
Thus many times, M. harding, ye have these words in one place together in Fulgentius himself: The Godhead: the Manhood: very God: very Man: The Flesh of Christ: The Substance of the Manhood. And these ●e the self same words, that you reprove.  
Blot out therefore for shame that unadvised note in your Margin: Look better to your Book: Work hereafter more discreetly: and trouble not, neither Pennemennes, nor others, without cause. Otherwise the Penman will tell you, what bird bore the feather, that made you a Penne.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 2.  
We believe that the Holy Ghost, who is the third Person in the Holy Trinity, is very God: not made, not created, not begotten, but proceeding from both the Father, and the Son, by a certain mean unknown unto man, and unspeakable: and that it is his property to mollify, & loften the hardness of man's heart, when he is once received thereinto, either by the wholesome preaching of the Gospel, or by any other way: that he doth give men light, and guide them unto the knowledge of God: to all way of Truth: to newness of the whole life: and to everlasting hope of Salvation.  

M. harding.  
As we acknowledge this article to be true and Catholic, so we demand of these Defenders. how they can prove the same. 
Untruth. As shall appear.  Have they either express Scripture for it, or any of the first four general Counsels, which be esteemed of most Authority? We are sure they have not. Therefore we do them to understand, and if they hear us not, we advertise the Readers, that fear God, and love his truth, that all truth necessarily to be believed 
* O folly. who ever said otherwiset  expressed in the Scripture: and that 
* O folly. who ever said otherwiset  other Counsels be to be received besides the four first, which are allowed in England by Parliament.   

The B. of Sarisburie  
Consider, M. harding, notwithstanding ye evermore tell us of Fathers, Fathers, yet how contrary oftentimes ye are in judgement to the same Fathers. You say, that the Godhead of the Holy Ghost cannot be proved by express Words of the Scriptures: and thereof, ye say, ye are right sure. Yet S. Augustine nothing doubteth, 
Augustin. contra Literas Petiliani, Li. 3. Ca 48.  but it may well be proved by plain Scriptures. Thus he saith, Spiritus Sanctus est Deus. unde Petrus, cùm dixisser● Ausus es mentiri Spiritui Sancto, continuò secutus adiunxit, quid esse: Spiritus Sanctus: & ait, Non es mentitus Hominibus, sed Deo: The Holy Ghost is God. Therefore Peter when he had said (unto Ananias) thou hast enterprised to lie to the Holy Ghost, he followed readily, and told him, what was the Holy Ghost: and said, Thou hast not sied unto Man, but unto God.  
Again he saith, 
Augustin. De Morib. Eccle. Catholi. Li. 1. Cap. 16.  Ostendit Paulus, Deum esse Spiritum Sanctum, & idò non esse Creaturam: S. Paul showeth us, that the Holy Ghost is God: and therefore is no Creature.  
Likewise again he saith, Ne quisquam Spiritum Sanctum negaret Deum, continuò secutus ait, Glorificate, & portate Deum in Corpore vestro: Lest any man should deny, 
Augustin. Episto. 174.  that the Holy Ghost is God, Paul added immediately these words: Glorify you therefore, and bear God in your Body. Here have we S. Augustine's Yea, and M. hardings Nay. S. Augustine assureth us, he hath Scriptures, to prove the Godhead of the Holy Ghost: M. harding saith, we are sure, he hath none at al. judge thou now, Gentle Reader, whether of these Doctors thou wilt believe.  
But what a vain vanity, and folly is this? will M. harding have us believe, that God cannot be God, unless he be allowed by the Church of Rome, and by the Pope? Then are we come again to that, the Tertullian writeth merrily of the Heathens: Nisi Homini Deus placuerit, 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  Deus non erit: Homo iam Deo propitius esse debebit: unless God please Man well (though he be God) he shall be no God. And so now Man must be friendly, and favourable unto God.  
We believe, M. harding, that the Holy Ghost is very God in deed, not upon the Popes, or his Cleregies credit, but, as S. Augustine saith, upon the special warrant of the Word of God.  
And therefore Nazianzene saith, 
Nazianzenus De Spiritu Sancto. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Dicet aliquis, non esse scriptum, Spiritum Sanctum esse Deum. Atqui proponetur tibi examen Testimoniorum, ex quibus ostendetur, Divinitatem Sancti Spiritus testatam esse in Sacris Literis: nisi quis valde insulsus sit, & alienus à Spiritu Sancto: Some Man will say, It is not written, that the Holy Ghost is God. But I will bring thee forth a whole Swarm of Authorities, whereby it shall well appear that the Godhead of the Holy Ghost is plainly witnessed in the Holy Scriptures: unless a Man be very dull, and utterly void of the Holy Ghost.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 1.  
We believe, that there is one Church of God, & that the same is not shut up (as in times passed among the jews) into some One corner or Kingdom, but that it is Catholic, & Universal, and dispersed throughout the whole world. So that there is now no Nation, which may truly complain, that they be shut forth, & may not be one of the Church & people of God: and that this Church is the Kingdom, the Body, and the Spouse of Christ: that Christ alone is the Prince of this Kingdom: that Christ alone is the Head of this Body: and that Christ alone is the Bridegroom of this Spouse.  

M. harding.  
It is a world to see these Defenders: They, which have not kept Unity of Spirit in the band of Charity, 
Ephes. 4.  which S. Paul requireth, but have severed themselves from the Body of the Church, tell us now forsooth, they believe, that there is one Church of God. But what may we think this one Church to be? Can they seem to mean any other (what so ever they pretend) then this new Church of late years set up by Satan, through the ministery of Martin Luther and those other Apostates his companions, if it may be named a Church, and not rather a Babylonical Tower? For as touching that Church, whereof 
* Untruth. For the Fathers in the Primitive Church never took him so.  all Christian People hath ever taken the Successor of Peter to be the Head under Christ, which is the true Catholic Church, in their Apology they stick not to say plainly, that it is clean fallen down long agone. And therefore the beginning of Luther's Seditious, and Heretical preaching they call Herbam, as much to say, as the green Grass, or first spring (this interpreter nameth it the very first appearing) of the Gospel, 
Look in the leaf H. 7. b.  leaf. F. 7. And in the leaf. F. 8. they say that forty years agone and upward, that is at the first setting forth of Luther and Zuinglius, the Truth was unknown and unheard of, and that they first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel. Likewise in an other place they grant, 
Leaf E. 2: In Latin they term it exortam Euangelii.  that certain and very strange sects have been stirring in the world ever since the Gospel did spring, meaning the time when Luther first brinced to Germany the poisoned Cup of his Heresies, Blasphemies, and Sathanismer.  
Thus having condemned the Church of God, which was before Luther's time, and allowing that for the true Church, the Gospel whereof first sprang out of Luther: how can they avouch their belief, and by what reason and learning can they make good, that there is one Church of God? We would feign know, which and where it is. Is Luther and his congregation that one Church of God, or Zuinglius and his rabble, or Osiunder and his sort, or Zuenckfeldius and his sect, or Stancarus and his band, or Balthasar Pacimontane and his rank? For all these, and certain other sects have 
* Untruth, As shall appear.  Luther for their founder, and for their Radix jesse, as it were, from whence they spring: And in deed every learned man easily seeth, how the gutters of their Doctrines run out of Luther's sink. Of all these there is none, but stoutly claimeth the name of the Church.  
Then how say ye, Defenders, which Church be ye? name the Child. If ye name one, we set the others against you. etc.  
How often in his books putteth Luther you, and your Captains in the roll of those, that he utterly condemneth, naming roundly together, Infidels, Turks, Epicures, Heretics, Papists, Sacramentaries? And now if he should hear you challenge the name of the one Church of God to you, and deny him and his followers that claimed title: would he not (think ye) stamp and rage, would he not whetie his dog eloquence upon you, and call you worse than these above reckoned, yea and if he witted how, worse than some of you be yourselves? The like courtesy maieye look for at those other sects, of which every one claimeth the name of this one Church of God.  
But ye say, that this One Church is not shut up into some one corner, or Kingdom, but that it is Catholic, and Universal, and dispersed through out the whole world. True it is, that ye say, 
Catholic Church. Why is the Church called Catholic. Threefold Universality an infallible mark to know the Church by.  what so ever ye think. But the Holy learned and auncien: Fathers, where they call and believe the Catholic Church, they mean (as Vincentius Lirivensis declareth) the Church to be Catholic, that is to say Universal, (for so the word signifieth) in respect of a threefold Universality: of places, which this Defender here toucheth: of times, and of men, which he toucheth not. In the Catholic Church we must have a great care (saith he.) that we hold that, which hath every where, evermore, and of all persons been believed. If these Defenders prove not the Church, they profess themselves to be of, to have this threefold Vntuer salitie, then is their Congregation not this one Church, nor of this one Church of God, but the synagogue of antichrist.  
And although the Authors of this Apology crack of the great increase, and spreading abroad of their Gospel, and now glory in the number of kingdoms, Dukedoms, Countries, common Weals, and Free Cities: Yet hath it not gone so far abroad as the Arians heresy did by three parts of four: Which was at length utterly extinguished, as this shall be.  
That the Catholic Church is the Kingdom, 
Christ alone Prince, Head, Bridegroom, Spouse of the Church. In respect of outward government the name of Head is attributed to others beside Christ.  the Body and the Spouse of Christ, we acknowledge. Of the same Kingdom we confess and believe Christ to be Prince alone, so as he is Head of this Body alone, and so as he is Bridegroom of this spouse alone. For Head and Spouse alone he is in one respect, not alone in an other respect. According to the in ward influence of Grace. Christ properly and only is Head of his Mystical Body the Church: But as touching the outward Government, the being of a Head is common to Christ with others. For in this respect certain others may be called Heads of the Church, as in Amos the Prophet the 
* Amos. 6. ¶ Reg. 17. Psal. 17. & Cor. ●.  great States be called the Heads of the People. So the Scripture speaketh of King Saul, When thou were a little one in thine own eyes, thou wastinade Head among the Tribes of Israel. So David saith of himself, he hath made me Head of Nations.  
Men be called Heads, in as much as they be in stead of Christ, and under Christ: after which meaning S. Paul saith to the Corinthians, For if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I, it, In persona Christi, In the Person of Christ. And in an other place, We are Ambassadors in the stead of Christ, 
Catholic in many, or few.  as though God did exhort you through us. To conclude in few, according to inward influence of grace into every faithful member, Christ only is Head of the Church: according to outward gourning the 
* Untruth. what Scripture, or Doctor ever said so?  Pope unde Christ and in stead of Christ is head of the same.  
As touching the Bridegromesbip, we say and believe, that if we would speak properly, 
2. Corin. 5. Christ the true Bridegroom, the Pope underbridgrome of the Church, joan. 3.  Christ is the only Bridegroom of the Church his spouse of whom it is said he that hath a spouse, is a Bridegroom. For from one of the Church he begetteth children to himself. But others are called Bridegrooms. Working together with Christ outwardly to the begetting of spiritual children, whom nevertheless they beget not to themselves, but to Christ. And such are called the ministers of the Bridegroom, in as much as they done his stead. And therefore the Pope, who is instead of Christ the Bridegroom of the whole Church, is 
* Untruth: For the Aucient Fathers never called him so.  called also the Bridegroom of the universal Church: a man may term him the vicegerent Bridegroom.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I trust, Gentle Reader, thou wilt not look, I should answer all M. hardings ordinary idle talk. So should I lose good time without cause, and be over troublesome to thine eats. O, saith he, What a world it is, to see these Defenders? They, which have not kept the unity of the Spirit, in the band of Charity, which S. Paul requireth, but have severed themselves from the Body of the Church, tell us now for sooth, that they believe, that there is one Church of God. O, M. harding, if we have herein said ill, then bear witness of the ill: If we have said well, wherefore make you these vitter outcries? What so ever ye have conceived us to be, yet might ye suffer us quietly to say the Truth, specially such Truth, as you imagine maketh so much for yourself.  
Ye say, we confess, that our Church began only about forty years sithence, and was never before. No, M. harding, we confess it not: and you yourself well know, we confess it not. It is your tale: it is not ours. We say, and have sufficiently proved, and you know it right well, if ye would be known of that ye know, that our Doctrine is the Old, & yours is the New, If ye will needs force yourself to the denial, it may easily be proved, & that by such Authority, as yourself may not well deny: unless ye will once again do now, as ye have twice done before.  
We say, that our Doctrine, & the order of our Churches is older than yours by five hundred whole years and more. If ye will not believe us, yet believe M. harding: 
M. harding Foli. 15. a.  he will tell you even the same. Mark well his words: These they be: It standeth not with Christ his promises made to the Church, that he should suffer his Church to continue in darkness these thousand years past.  
And thus by secret confession, he leaveth us fivehundred three score and six whole years at the least: that is to say, the whole time of Christ, of his Apostles, and of all the Godly Learned Doctors, and Fathers of the Primitive Church. Which time notwithstanding is thought a great deal better, and purer, than all the time, that hath followed afterward. In this Division M. hardinge being attent, and eager upon his cause, and claiming as much, as he thought with any modesty he might be able, hath claimed to himself only a thousand years of the night: and hath left us well-near six hundred years of the day.  
This is your own witness, M. Harding: Consider well of it. It is your own. Therefore ye do yourself great wrong, and much deface your own credit, so suddenly to say, our Doctrine is New. God's name be blessed, it hath the Testimony, not only of Christ, and his Apostles, but also of the old Learned Catholic Fathers of the Church. And this is it, that so much grieveth you, that we reform our Churches now according to the pattern, and sampler of Christ's, and his Apostles first Institution. For thereby the disorder, and deformity of your Churches the more appeareth.  
Lirinensis saith, 
Vincentius Lirinensis  That thing must be holden for Catholic, that everywhere, evermore, and of all men hath been believed. These general notes must be limited with this special restraint: 
Catholic in many, or few.  Where as the Churches were not corrupted. For otherwise there was never any Doctrine so Catholic, ne not the Confessed Doctrine of Christ himself, that hath been received, Evermore, &, Everywhere, and of all men without any exception. But, M. harding, these self same notes of Lirinests utterly everthrowe the greatest part of that whole Doctrine, that you would so sane have counted Catholic. For neither reacheth to within five hundred years of the Apostles time: nor hath it that Antiquitte indeed, that in face, and countenance is pretended, as it is plain by your own former Confession: nor was it ever universally received, as hereafter by Particulares it shall be proved. It had never that universality, neither of all times, and ages: nor of all places, and countries: nor was it ever universally received & allowed of all men. Therefore, what so ever ye call it, ye cannot by your own Definition call it Catholic.  
The Catholic Church of God standeth not in multitude of persons, but in weight of Truth. Otherwise Christ himself, and his Apostles had not been Catholic. For his flock was very little: & the Catholic, or Universal consent of the World stood against it. The Church of God is compared to the Moon: for that she waxethe, and waneth, as the Moon doth, & sometime is full, sometime is empty: 
Augustin. de Gene. ad litter. Cap. 1.  and therefore, as S. Augustine saith, is called Catholica, quia Vniversaliter perfecta est, & in nullo claudicat, & per totum Orbem diffusa est: Because she is universally perfit, and halteth in nothing, and is (not now shut up in one only Country, as was the Church of the jews, but) powered throughout the whole World. Though the hearts of men have often changes, yet God's Truth is evermore one: and, be it in many, or in few, is ever Catholic. Thus, M. harding, it is written by one of your own side: 
Fortalitium Fidei, Li. 5.  Etsi non nisi duo Homines remanerent in Mundo, tamen in eyes saluaretur Ecclesia, quae est unitas Fidelium: Although there were but two men remaining in the world, yet even in them two the Church, which is the Unity of the Faithful, should be soved.  
Luther's dog eloquence, for so, M. harding, it liketh you of your modesty to call it, were it never so rough, and vehement, the just zeal of God's glory, and of his Holy Temple, which you so miserably had defaced, so enforcing him, yet was it never any thing comparable to your eloquence. For, I beseech you, if ye may have leisure, hearken a little, & hear yourself talk. Behold your own words, so many, so vain, so bitter, so fiery, so furious, all together in one place: This new Church, ye say, set up by Satan: Martin Luther, and other Apostates his companions: This Babylonical Tower: Luther's seditious, and Heretical preaching: Luther brinced to Germany the poisoned Cup of his Heresies, Blasphemies, and Sathnismes: Zuing lives, and his rabble: The gutters of this Doctrine run out of Luther's sink: Luther would stamps, and rage, and whet his dog eloquence upon you: You are the synagogue of antichrist. These be the Figures, and Flowers of your speech. Yet must we think, that ye can neither stamp, nor rage: but use only Angels eloquence. How be it. I trust, no wise man will judge our cause the worse, for that your tongue can so readily serve you to speak ill.  
To the matter, ye say, that, touching the influence of Erace, Christ only is the Head of the Church: but touching Direction, & Government, the Pope only is the Head. Al this is but your own tale, M. harding: Ye speak it only of yourself: Other Authority of Scripture, or Doctor ye bring ve-none.  
And yet notwithstanding, ye have alleged Scriptures too, God wot, even as ye have used to do in other places.  
Ye say, 
2. Corin. 2. 2. Corin. 5.  S. Paul saith, If I forgave any thing, for your sakes I forgave it, in the person of Christ: We are Ambassadors in the steed of Christ, even as though God did exhort you through us: Hereof ye conclude, Ergo, The Pope under Christ, and in the steed of Christ is Head of the Church. If ye conclude not thus, ye wander idly, and speak in vain, & condlude nothing. These words of S. Paul nothing touch the Pope, but only the faithful, & zealous Preacher of the Gospel. For wherein doth the Pope resemble S. Paul? 
Head  Wherein doth he reprosente the person of Christ? What exhorteth he? What teacheth he? What saith he? What doth he? And yet if he would do any one part of his whole duty, how might this Argument stand for good: S. Paul being at the City of Philippi in Maerdonia, exhorted the Corinthians, as in the person of Christ: Ergo, the Pope being at Rome in Italy, although he neither exhort, nor preach, yet is he the Head of the Universal Church? Although Divinity go hard with you, yet ye should have seens better to your Logic.  
I grant, Bishops may be called the Heads of their seneral Churches. So Chrysostom calleth 
a Chrysostom in Epist ad Roma. hom. 18.  Elias Caput Prophetarum, The Head of the prophetee: So Amos saith, 
b Amos. 6.  The Princes are the Heads of the people: So Saul is called 
c 1. Regum. 15.  the Head of the Tribes of Israel: So David was made 
d Psalm. 17.  Caput Gentium, The Head of Nations: Sundry such other like examples I alleged in my Former 
e Articul. 4. Divi. 32.  Reply to M. harding: As that Cyrillius the Bishop of Alexandria, in the Council of Ephesus was called 
f cyril. tomo. 4. Epist. 5.  Caput Episcoporum congregatotum, The Head of the Bishops, that these were assembled: That S. Gregory saith, 
g Gregor. in. 1. Regum. lib. 4. Cap. 4.  Paulus ad Christum conversus Caput effectus est Natlonumm Paul being once converted to Christ, was made the Head of Nation: That Prudentius saith, 
h Prudentius in Enchiridio.  Sancta Bethlem Capur eitorbis: Holy Bethlem is the Head of the World. In this sense Optatus saith, 
i Optatus Li. 1. & 2.  There be four sorts of Heads in the Church, the Bishops, the Priests, the Deacons, The Faithful: And all this only in a certain kind of phrase, and manner of speech. But in deed and verily S. Augustine saith, 
k Augustin contra Litter. Petil. Li. 1. Ca 5.  Paulus ipse non poterat Caput esse eorum, quos plantaverat: Paul himself could not be the Head of them, whom he had planted, Therefore Gregory saith, 
l Gregor. Li. 4. Epist. 38.  Petrus Apostolus Primum, Membrun Sanctae & universalis Ecclesiae est. Paulus, Andreas, johannes, quid aliud, quam singularium sunt plebium Capita? Tamen sub uno Capite omnes Membra sunt Ecclesiae, Arque ve cuncta brevi cingulo locutionis astringam, sancti ante Legem, Sacti in Lege, Sancti sub Gratia: Omnes hi perficientes Corpus Domini in Membris sunt Ecclesiae constituti. Et nemo se unquam Vniueisalem vocari voluit: Peter the Apostle is (not the Head, but) the chief Member of the Holy Universal Church. Paul, Andrew, and john, what are they else, but the Heads of several Nations? Yet notwithstanding under one Head (Christ) they are all Members of the Church. And to speak shortly, the Saints before the Law, 
Peter was a member of the Church but not the Head.  the Saints in the time of Grace, all accomplisshing the lords Body, are placed among the Members of the Church, And there was never yet one, that would have himself called the Universal Bishop, Therefore where as M. harding saith, All Christian People have ever taken the Successor of Peter to be the Head of the Catholic Church under Christ, he speaketh it only of himself. 
johan. 8.  And though the comparison be odious, yet Christ saith, Cùm loquitur mendacium, ex proprijs loquitur: when he speaketh Untruth, he speaketh it of his own. S. Gregory saith, Peter was the chief Member of the Church of Christ: but not the Head.  
But the Bishop of Rome, 
De Election. ca Licet Abb.  and his hired Proctors have taught us far otherwise. Panormitane saith: Christus & Papa faciunt unum Consistortum: &, excepto peccaio, Papa potest, quicquid Deus ipse potest: Christ, and the Pope make one Consistone, and keep one Court: And, sin only excepted, the Pope can do, what so ever God himself can do. This, I trow, is that Head of Direction, and Government, that M. harding meaneth.  
As for the rest, that the Church is the Kingdom of Christ, and the Pope the Prince thereof, 
Extra. Noult ille, In gloss.  M. harding in special words answereth nothing. notwithstanding some others have said, Petro & Coelestis, & Terreni Imperij iura commissa sunt: Unto Peter was committed the right both of the Heavenly, and also of the earthily empire.  
Last of all he doubteth not, 
Orders.  but the Pope may be called the Spouse, or Bridegroom of the Universal Church: and yet the same without the Authority of any Doctor. He allegeth only S. bernard: But the same S. bernard in the self same place saith, and that by M. hardings own confession, that the Pope is not the Bridegroom of the Church. And therefore he was feign to expound his meaning, and to weigh him down of the other side with his pretty Gloze. But S. bernard, without Gloze saith plainly: Non sunt omnes amici Spousi, qui hodiè sunt Sponsi Ecclesae: 
Bernard in Concil. Remensi. Bernard ad Euigeni. de Considera. Li. 3.  They be not all the bridegrooms friends, that are this day the Spouses of the Church, O miserandain Sponsam ralibus creditam Paranymohis. Non accici Sponsi, sed aemuli sunt: O miserable is that Spouse, that is committed to such Leaders. They are not the friends, they are the enemies of the Bridegroom.  
How be it we need not greatly to reck, what styles, and titles the Pope can vouchsafe to allow himself. As he may be called the Head, the Prince, and the Spouse: even so, and by like authority, and truth, may he be called the Light, the Life, the savour, and the God of the Church.  
God give him an heart to understand, that he may be, although not the Head, yet a Member of that Body although not the Prince, yet a Subject in that Kingdom: although not the Bridegroom, yet a Child of the Church of God.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 1.  
Furthermore (we Believe) that there be divers degrees of Ministers in the Church: whereof some be Deacons, some Priests, some Bishops: to whom is committed the office to instruct the people, and the whole charge, and setting forth of Religion.  

M. harding.  
Here it had been your part to have declared your faith touching the Holy Sacrament of Order, 
Sacramonte of Order By good reason.  agreeable to the faith of the Catholic Church: That there be seven orders in the Church, four lesser, and three greater: 
Untruths boldly presumed, as by the answer it may appear.  for so by good reason they are called. And as for the institution, authority, and estimation of the greater, specially of Priesthood and Deaconship, ye might have alleged the Scriptures: so for the Lesser the example of Christ, the Tradition of the Apostles, and the testimonies written of the Apostles scholars, of those that both next, and soon after followed them, namely Dionys. cap. 3. Hierarch. Ecclesiast. Ignatius epist. 8. ad Ecclesiam Antiochenam, Tertullian in prescript. adversus Hereticos, Gaius Pope and Martyr in Diocletians time, Sozimus in S. Augustine's time, Isychius, Eusebius Caesariensis is his Ecclesiastical history, and Epiphanius in the end of his Book contra Haereses.   

The B. of Sarisburie  
Gentle Reader, if I should leave these, and other like M. hardings words unansweared, thou mightest happily think, he had said somewhat. Here, he saith, it had been our part to have told thee of Seven Orders in the Church, three Greater, and four Less: Having in deed himself clean forgotten his own part. For notwithstanding this controlment, and account of so many Orders, yet he nameth no more Orders, than we have named. And verily, if he would have followed his own Authorities, it had been hard for him, in any good Order to have made up his own account.  
For his own Anacletus saith, Ampliùs, quàm isti Duo Ordines Sacerdotum, (Episcopi, & Presbyteri) nec nobis à Deo collati sunt, 
Anacletus Epistola. 3. Hieronym. ad Euagrium  nec Apostoli docuerunt: More than these two Orders of Priests (Bishops, and Elders) neither hath God appointed us, nor haven the Apostles taught us. And yet of these same Two several Orders, S. Jerome seemeth to make only One Order. For thus he writeth: Audio, quendam in tantam erupisse vecordiam, 
Orders.  ut Diaconos Presbyteris, id est, Episcopis anteferret: I hear say, there is a man broken out unto such wilful fury, 
Hieronym. in eadem Epistola.  that he placeth Deacons before Priests, that is to say, before Bishops: And again: Apostolus praecipué docer, eosdem esse Presbyteros, quos Episcopos: The Apostle, Paul, specially teacheth us, that Priests, and Bishops be all one. 
Hierony in isaiah, cap. 19 Catechumeni.  The same S. Jerome writing upon the Prophet isaiah, reckenethe only five Orders, or Degrees in the whole Church: The Bishops, the Priests, the Deacons, the Entrers, or Beginners, and the faithful. And other Order of the Church he knoweth none.  
Clemens saith, 
Clemens Epist. 2. De con. 〈◊〉 st 3. Tribus gradibus  Tribus gradibus eommissa sunt Sacramenta Divinorum Secretorun, id est, Presbytero, Diacono, & Ministro: The Mysteries of the Holy Secrecies be committed unto three Orders: that is, unto the Priests, unto the Deacons, and unto the Ministers: And yet Deacons, and Ministers, as touching the name, are all one.  
Dionysius likewise hath three Orders, 
Dionysi Eccle. Hierar. Cap. 5.  but not the same: For he rekenethe Bishops, Priests, & Deacons. And whereas M. harding maketh his account of Four of the Less, or Inferior Orders, meaning thereby, Ostiarios, Lectores, Exorcistas, Acoluthos: The Door keepers, the Readers, the converers, and the Waiters, or Followers: 
Ignatius ad Antiochen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hierony. De 7. ordinibus Eccl.  His own Ignatius addeth thereto three other Orders: Cantores, Laboratores, Confitentes: The Chounters or Singers, the Labourers, and the Confessors. elements addeth thereto, Catechistas, The Infourmers, or Teachers of them that were entering into the Faith. A little vain Book, bearing the name of S. Jerome, De Septen Ordinibus Ecclesiae, addeth yet an other Order, and calleth them Fossarios, that is, The Sextines, or Overseers of the Graves. And, lest you should think he reckoneth this Order, as amongst other necessary offices to serve the people, and not as any part of the clergy, his words be these, Primus in Clericis Fossariorum Ordo est: qui in similitudinem Tobiae Sancti sepelire morruos admonet: The first Order of the clergy, is the Order of the Sextines: which, as Holy Tob●e was wont to do, casse upon the people for the burial of the dead.  
Likewise to the three greater Orders Isidorus addeth an other distinct & several Order of Bishops: 
Isidor. Elymolog. Lib. 1. Cap. 12. Scotui in 4. Sen. Distin. 24. Qu. 1. Ambros in Epist. Ad Ephe. Cap. 4.  unto whom agréethe Gulielmus Altisiodorensis, & Gottofredus Pictaviensis, as appeareth by johannes Scotus. Again of the other Inferior Orders, S. Jerome leaveth out the Conjurers, & Waiters: S. Ambrose leaveth out the Waiters, and Door Keepers: The Canons of the Apostles leave out Conjurers, Waiters, and Door keepers, all three together.  
In this so great dissension, & darkness, what way will M. harding take, to follow? By Anacletus, there be Two Orders: by Clemens, & S. Jerome, Three: by Jerome Countrefeite, Seven: by others Eight, by other Nine, by others Ten.  
At this notwithstanding, he telleth us, our part had been, to have showed, that there be just Seven Orders in the Church, Three great, and Four Less, without doubt, or question.  
Here, gentle Reader, it had been M. hardings part to have showed us the Reasons, and Grounds of this Divinity: These they be, as they are alleged by the best of that side: 
Petrus Lombar. senten Lib. 4. Distin. 24.  Christ saith, I am the Door: Ergo, there must be in the Church an Order of Door Keepers. Christ saith, I am the Light of the World: Hereupon have they founded the Order of Acolutes, to carry Tapers. And so for the rest. Thus much may serve for a taste.  
Now let us consider, what these Orders have to do, and with how Holy, and weighty offices they stand charged in the Church of God. first Clemens (of whoes Authority M. harding maket be no small account, for he calleth him the Apostles follow) writeth thus: 
Clement consi. Apost. Li. 8. Ca 15.  unus Hypodiaconus det aquam manibus Sacerdotum: Duo Diaconi ex utàque part Altaris teneat flabellum confectum ex tenuibus membranis, vel ex Pavonum pennis, quibus leviter abigant praeteruclantes bestiolas, 
Orders.  ne in Pocula incidant: Let one of the Subdeacons give Water to the priests hands: Let two Deacons stand at the two ends of the Austore: either of them with a fan made of fine Parchment, or of Peacocks taises, therewith softly to chase away the fl●es, that they fall not into the Communion Cups. The offices of other inferior Orders be these, as they be noted by one of M. hardings own side: 
Aureum Speculum Pap●.  Ad Minores Ordines haec spectant: Portare Cereos, & Vrceolum: & Canes expellere de Ecclesia: To the sesse Orders these things belong: to carry Tapers, and Holy Water stocks: and to dr●ue Doogges of the Church. These, I trow, be the Mystical Holy Orders, whereof M. harding saith, Our part had been, to have made some song discourse: being himself ashamed, as it may appear by his silence, either to name them in particular, or to open the Secrets of their offices.  
How be it in deed, good Christian Reader, sundry of these offices in the Primitive Church were appointed to very good, & sober purposes: The Door keeper's office was then, to keep out Excommunicate persons, that they should not press in among the Faithful: The Psalmistes, or Singers office was, to sing the Psalms, thereby to move the people's hearts to devotion: The Exorcists office was, by a special gift of God▪ serving only for that time, to call forth soul Spirits out of the Bodies of them, that were possessed. The Readers office was, openly, and plainly, and distinctly to pronounce the Scriptures unto the people: and to this use the Bishop delivered unto him a Book with this charge: 
●ist 23. Lector.  Accipe, & esto relator Verbi Dei: Take thou this Book, and be thou a pronouncer of the Word of God. 
●ist. 23. Cleros.  And therefore Isidorus saith, Tanta, & ●am clara erit eius vox, ut quamuis long● positorum aures adimpleat: The Readers voice must be so sowd, and so clear, that it may be able to fill thee eats of them, that stand far of. The Acolothes, or Waiters office was, to attend upon the Bishop, as a witness of his conversation.  
To such good uses these offices then served in the Church of God. But now there is nothing left, saving the bare name only, without any manner use, or Office. For neither doth the Ostiarius keep out the Excommunicates: Nor doth the Acoluthus wait upon the Bishop: Nor doth the Exorciste cast forth Devils: Nor doth the psalmist sing the Psalms: Nor doth the Reader openly pronounce the Scriptures: (I might yet step a little farther, to open the whole beauty of the Cleregte of Rome) nor doth the Deacon make provision for the poor: nor doth the Bishop preach the Word of God.  
This had been our part to have opened at large: And for leaning of the same, we were worthy by M. hardings judgement, to be reproved.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 2.  
Yet notwithstanding, we say, that there neither is, nor can be any one man, which may have the whole Superiority in this Vuiversal state: for that Christ is ever present to assist his Church, and needeth not any man, to supply his room, as his only heir to all his Substance: and that there can be no one mortal creature, which is able to comprehend, or conceive in his mind the Universal Church, that is to wit, all the parts of the world: much less able rightly, and duly to put them in order, and to Govern them.  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. hardings answer hereto is long, and tedious. The Substance thereof in short is this: Where we say, No one Mortal Man is able to wealde the burden of the whole Church of God, M. harding answereth: Where any thing is in deed, there whether it may be, or no▪ to discuss, it is needless. Therefore whether any one man can be superior, and chief over the whole Church, we leave to speak: that so it is, thus we prove: Every Parish hath his several Vicar, 
1.  or person: And every Diocese his own Bishop. Ergo, what reason is it, there be not one Chief governor of the whole Christian people?  
When questions be moved in matters of Faith, 
2.  through diversities of judgements the Church should be divided, unless by Authority of One it were kept in Unity.  
They, 
3.  that say otherwise, take from Christ the Glory of his providence, and the praise of his great love towards his Church.  
The Peace of the Church is more conveniently procured by one, 
4.  then by many.  
It is most meet, that the Church militant, touching Government, 
5.  resemble the Church triumphant. But in the triumphant Church one is governor over the whole, that is God: Therefore in the Church Militant order requireth, that one bear rule over all according to that the Holy Captain joshua seemeth to speak, 
joshua, 1.  The Children of juda, and the Children of Israel shall aessemble together, 
A great overfight: For these be the words, not of the Captain josua, but of the Prophet Osee.  and they shall make to themselves one Head: Thereof our Lord saith in S. john, 
johan. 10.  There shallbe One Fold, and One shepherd.  
In deed Christ is Head of his Body. Yet need it is, for as much as Christ now dwelleth not with us in Visible Presence, his Church have one Man to do his steed of outward ruling in Earth: And therefore he said unto Peter, Feed my Flock: Confirm they Brethren.  
Thus we see these Defenders Negative Doctrine, That no One Man may have the Superiority over the whole state of the Church, disproved, as utterly false.  
To their second reason, 
Loe.  we grant, Christ needed not any man to supply his room, that should succeed in his whole Substance. Neither is Man of Capacity of such succession: 
* Untruth. For Panormitane saith, Papa potest, quic quid Deus ipse potest.  neither hath there any such fond saying been uttered by the Divines.  
But because Christ saw the knot of Unity should be most surely kept knit by Government of one, he 
* Untruth.  committed the regiment of the whole Church unto One: whoes Visible ministery he might use in steed of himself.  
To the third we say, that Man is not only able to comprehend in his mind, and conceive the Universal Church, but also to put it in order, and to Govern it so far as is expedient.  
last of all, who so ever will not be fed nor ruled by this one Shepherd, and breaketh out of this one Fold, he is not of the Flock of Christ, but of the heard of antichrist.  
Here, Gentle Reader, M. harding hath brought thee, not the Authority of any one Catholic Doctor, or Learned Father, but only a few cold Reasons of his own, with certain Scriptures unadvisedly alleged, and violently forced from their meaning, as shall soon appear.  
His first Reason concludeth very weakly: Every parish is governed by One Vicar, 
1.  or person: & every Diocese is governed by One several Bishop: Ergo, there is One Universal Governor over the whole Church of Christ. Here is neither order in Reason, nor sequel in nature. Therefore if any man would deny the Argument, M. harding were never able to make it good. He might as well, and in as good order reason thus: Every Kingdom, or Common weal hath One Prince, or Magistrate to rule over it: Ergo, There is One Universal Prince, to rule over the whole world. Or thus, Every Flock of Sheep bathe One Several shepherd to oversee them: Ergo, all the Flocks through the world are overseen by One General shepherd. Otherwise, M. harding imagineth, this fowl absurdity must needs follow, that the part is better Governed, than the whole.  
The other three Reasons, 
2. 3. 4. In the fourth Article, and in the 18. and 19  touching the Providence of God, the debating of questions in Faith, and conseruinge of Peace, and Unity in the Church, are answered already in my Former Reply to M. harding. 
Divisions.  In deed, I remember, to avouch all that M. 
De Maior. & Obedien. unam Sanctam. In Glossa.  harding hath here said, one sometimes well inclined to that side, said thus: Non videretur Dominus discretus fuisse (ut cum reverentia eius loquar) nisi unicum post se talem Vicarium reliquisset, qui haec omnia posset: Christ our Lord should not have seemed to have dealt discreetly (to speak it with reverence) unless he had left One such Vicar behind him, 
Unity by one Pope.  that might have done all these things.  
I grant, Dissension, and quarrels be the sooner ended, when all things be put over to one Man: So that the same one Man may live for ever, and still continue in one mind, and never alter. But oftentimes one Pope is sound contrary to an other: 
Platyna in Sabini ano. Sabellicus Enneade. 9 Lib. 1. Platyna, in Stephano Sexto. Platyna, in Romano. 1.  & sometimes one Pope hath been found contrary to himself. Pope Sabinianus would have burnt all Pope Gregory's Books: And, as it is said before, Pope Romanus utterly abolished all the Acts of his Predecessor Pope Stevin: The same Pope Stevin unburied his Predecessor Pope Formosus, and defaced, and mangled his naked carcase, and utterly condemned all, that had been done by him before: And Platina giveth this general judgement of them, Nihil aliud isti Pontificuli cogitabant, quàm ut Nomen, & Dignitatem Maiorum suorum extinguerent: These little Petite Popes had none other care in the world, but how to deface the Name, and Estimation of other Popes, that had been before them. And thus, that one Pope liketh, an other misliketh: that one alloweth, an other condemneth. And yet by M hardings judgement, we have none other rule to stay by in doubtful cases, but only the Will, and Pleasure of the Pope.  
How be it, this, I trow, is not the readiest way to procure Peace, and to maintain Unity in the Church. And therefore Gregory saith of john the Bishop of Constantinople, 
Gregori. Lib 4.  that claimed to himself this Universal Power, 
Epist. 34. 38.  Si hanc causam aequanimiter portamus, 
Gregori. Lib. 4.  totius Ecclesiae Fidem corrumpimus: 
Epist. 76.  Corruit universa Ecclesia à statu suo, si is, qui universalis dicitur, cadit: If we quietly suffer this matter thus to proceed (that one Man shall be called the Universal Bishop, we seek not ways to maintain Unity, but) we overthrow the Faith of the whole Church: If be, that is called the Universal Bishop, happen to fall, the whole Church falleth from her state. Thus therefore, to allow any one Man Universal Authority over the whole Church, is a matter, not behoveful, and profitable, as M. harding fancieth, but, as Gregory saith, doubtful, and dangerous to the Church. For although all the world either would, or could give ear, and credit to one Man, yet were not that therefore always Christian Unity. 
August. De Vera Relig ione Ca 45  S. Augustine saith, Habet & Superbia appetitum quendam unitatis, & Omnipotentiae: Pride itself hath a certain desire of Unity, and of Universal Power.  
An other of M. hardings Reasons is this: The Church labouring here in Earth must resemble the Church of the Saints Triumphing in Heaven. But in Heaven God only is the governor over the whole: Therefore, in the Church beneath, the Pope likewise must needs be governor over the whole. Thus God must be rated to Govern above, and the Pope beneath: & so, as one sometime said, Divisum Imperium cum love Caesar habet.  
This is a valiant kind of Argument. It holdeth from Heaven to Earth: from Angels to men: from God to the Pope.  
But how knoweth M. harding, what Orders of Angels, and archangels there be in Heaven? what they do: how they deal: who ruleth: who are ruled: what Laws, and Policies they have emongste them? They say, they would frame their Church according to the Sampler: And yet good men they never knew, nor saw the Sampler. But only of themselves they imagine Common Weals, and Orders in Heaven: and according to the same, they would shape, and fashion their own Church in Earth. The better way, M. harding, had been, seeing the whole matter hangeth only upon your fantasies, to say, that God hath appointed one Principal Archangel to be Pope in Heaven: and all other Powers, Angels, & Dominions to be his Subjects. Thus might ye easily have made your frame to agree with your Pattern, and the one of your fancies to answer the other.  
For to say, 
josua for Osee.  as you say, 
Church triumphant, & militant.  God ruleth all in Heaven above: Therefore the Pope must rule all in the world beneath, it is but a slender kind of reasoning. S. Augustine saith, Quid aliud in Pompa huius mundi homo appetit, nisi Solus esse, si fieri possit, cui multa subiecta sint: 
August. De V●ra Religione, Ca 4●  perversa, scil●●et, imitatione Omnipotentis Dei? In the Vain Pomp of this world what thing else is 〈◊〉▪ that a man doth desire, but, if it were possible, to make himself alone such a one, unto whom many things may be obedient: and that by a peevish countrefeitinge of God Omnipotent?  
And this is it, that Gregory saith of john the Bishop of Constantinople: Illum, videlicet, imitatur, qui spreta Angelorum societate, ascendere conatus est ad culmen Singularitatis: 
Gregori. Lib. 4.  He followeth Lucifer, 
Epist. 78.  who despising the fellowship of the Angels, laboured to get up to the top of Singularity, and said, I will mount up above the north, and willbe like unto the Highest.  
Verily, Dionysius writing purposely of the Policy, and Government of the Church, & comparing the same with the Glorious Government of the Angels and powers in Heaven, yet never uttered one Word of the Universal Government of the Pope. Nay rather in the late Council of Constance, out of this very place is Formed an Argument to the contrary: In Coelesti Hierarchia tota Congregatio Angelorum non habet Caput unum, 
In Opere Triparti. Li. 2. Ca ●  praeter solum Deum: Ergo, à Simili, in Ecelesiastica Hierarchia Hominum non debet esse unum Caput, praeter Solum Deum: In the Heavenly Government the whole Company of the Angels hath none other One Head, but only God: Therefore of the like, in the Ecclesiastical Government emongste men, there ought not to be any One Head, but only God.  
Nevertheless M. harding is well able to fortify all these things by the Authority of the Scriptures. And here in steed of the first Chapter of the Prophet Osee, 
Josua for Osee.  be allegeth the first Chapter of the Book of josua. And lest thou shouldest think, it were only a marginal error, brought in by some oversight of the Printer, as he useth sometimes to excuse, and to shift the matter, he hath thus laid it wide open in his own text, Hereof the Holy Captain joshua seemeth to speak. How be it, one error may the better be dissembled amongst so many.  
In deed the Prophet Osee, and not the Holy Captain josua, speaketh these words: but not, as M. harding imagineth▪ of the state of all Christendom under One Pope, but of that Unity, and Consent, that all the Faithful of the world, as well Jews, as Gentiles should have under One Christ: as it is most evident by the whole discourse of the text.  
Thus lie the Words: 
Osee Cap. ●  The number of the Children of Israel shallbe as the Sand of the Sea shore, that cannot be numbered: And it shall come to pass in the place, where it was said unto them, Ye are no people of mine, There shall it be said unto them, Ye are the Children of the Living God. And the Children of Juda, and the Children of Israel shall assemble together, and shall appoint unto themselves one Head. Upon which Words S. Jerome writeth thus: Haec omnia fient, quia magnus est Dies Seminis Dei, 
Hierony. in Ose● Cap. 1.  qui interpretatur Christus: All these things shall come to pass, because it is the great day of the Seed of God, which Seed is expounded (not the Pope, but) Christ.  
Likewise Nicolas Lyra, Congregabuntur filii juda, id est, Apostoli: & filii Israel, id est, 
Nicol. Lyra in Osee Cap 1.  Gentiles conversi: Pariter, id est, in una Ecclesia: & ponent sibi Caput unum, id est, Christum: There shall assemble together the Children of juda, that is to say, the Apostles: and the Children of Israel, that is to say, the Heathens converted: Together, that is to say, in One Church: and shall appoint unto themselves One Head, that is to say, (not one Pope, as M. harding would have it, but) One Christ.  
S. Augustine expounding the same words saith thus: 
One Shepherd etc. Augu. De Civitate. Li. 18. Ca 28  Recolatur Lapis ille Angularis, & duo illi parietes, unus ex judaeis, & alter ex Gentibus: Let us remember that Corner Stone (that is Christ, and not the Pope) and the two Walls, the one of the jews, the other of the Heathens.  
The other words, 
johan. 10.  which M. harding allegeth out of S. john, Christ himself expoundeth, not of the Pope, but of himself: I am the good shepherd: I yield my life for my Sheep: I know my Sheep, and am known of them: I have other Sheep. that be not of this Flock. Them must I bring, that they may hear my Voice: and so shall there be one Shepherd, and one Flock. These words Chrysostom expoundeth by the words of S. Paul: 
Ephes. 2 Chrysost. in johan Homil. 59  Vt duos conderet in Semetipso in unum nowm Hominem: That he might work two people into One new Man (not in the Pope, but) in himself.  
S. Augustine expounding the same saith thus, 
Augu. in johan. Tract. 47.  Duobus istis Gregibus, tamquam duobus Parietibus, Christus factus est Lapis Augularis: Unto these two Flocks, as unto two Walls (not the Pope, but) Christ was made the Corner Stone.  
And what should I allege any other the Old Fathers? 
Nicolaus Lyra in johan. Ca 10.  Nicolas Lyra, as simple an Interpreter, as he was, yet he likewise saith the same: Fiet unus Pastor, id est, Christus: There shallbe One shepherd, that is to say, (not the Pope, but) (Christ.) Neither is M. harding able to show us any Learned allowed Interpreter, old, or New, that hath expounded this place otherwise.  
All these things notwithstanding, as well these words of Christ, as also the other of the Prophet Osee, M. harding applieth only to the Pope. The Pope must be the Head: The Pope must be the shepherd. Both Christ, and Osee Prophesied these things of the Glory, and Kingdom of the Pope. juda and Israel shall choose Christ to be their Head: All the faithful through the world are one Flock, and Christ is the shepherd: Ergo, the Pope is the General Head of the Universal Church of God.  
Such Logic M. harding is able to teach us: and with such fear, and reverence can he use Gods Holy Word. 
S●e●on. Tranquil. in Caligula.  And like as the Emperor Caligula sometimes took of the Head of his great God jupiter, and set on an other Head of his own: Even so by these Interpretations, and Gloss, M. harding smiteth of Christ, the Only Head of the Church, and setteth on the Pope. For johannes de Parisijs (out of whom, or some other the like, he hath borrowed this whole matter) nothing doubteth to tell us, that Christ is not, nor cannot be the Head of this Body, 
johan. De Parisi●s, de potestate Regia, & Papal●, Cap. 3.  or the shepherd of this Flock. And, lest M. harding should charge me with untrue report, his words be these: Congregabuntur filii juda, & filii Israel, ut ponant sibi Caput unum: Et johan. 10. Fiet unum Ouile, & unus Pastor. Quod quidem de Christo intelligi non potest: sed de alio aliquo Ministro, qui praesit loco eius: The Children of Juda, and the Children of Isral shall assemble together, to appoint unto themselves One Head: And in the tenth of john, There shallbe made One Fold, and One shepherd: Which thing doubtless cannot be expounded of Christ: but must be taken of some other Minister, that may rule in his steed.  
Thus we are taught, that Christ is neither the Head of his own Body, the Church: nor the shepherd of his own Flock, but only the Pope. And yet Chrysostom saith, Qui non utitur Sacra Scriptura, sed ascendit aliunde, id est, non concessa via, 
Chrysost. in johan. Honal. 58.  hic non Pastor est, sed Fur: Who so ever useth not the Holy Scripture, but cometh 〈◊〉 an other way that is not lawful, (which is by False Gloss, and Corruptions) he is not the shepherd of the Flock: he is the Thief.  
So saith S. Augustine, 
Augusti. Contra Donatist. Lib. 6. 1. Q. 3. Vocantur Cane ●.  Ipsum characterem multi & Lupi, & Lupis imprimunt: The note, or mark of a Bishop many give unto Wolves, and be Wolves themselves.  
M. harding saith farther: For as much as Christ is Ascendedinto Heaven, and is now no more conversant amongst us in Visible Form, 
Feed my Sheep.  as he was before, it behoved some one man to be put in Commission for bearing the charge, and taking care of the whole Church. Therefore he said unto Peter, Feed my Flock: Confirm thy Brethren. first, what Ancient Learned Father ever thus scanned the words of the Pope's Commission? Or why doth M. harding avouch so great a matter of himself only, without farther Authority? And if this so large Commission be to Feed, & to Feed so many, why then doth the Pope Feed so little? Or rather, why Feedeth he nothing at all? Or how can he claim by feeding, that never Feedeth?  
Again, where learned M harding to reason thus: Christ is Ascended into Heaven: Ergo, the Pope is Head of the whole World? Or thus, Christ said to Peter, Feed my Flock: Ergo, the Pope hath Universal Power over the whole Church of God? How can he make these Arguments to hold, I will not say by Divinity, but by any reasonable shift of Logic?  
But ye say, God speaketh not now unto us mouth to mouth: nor sendeth us down his Angels from Heaven: nor instructeth us now by Visions, as he did others in Old times. What of that? will it therefore follow, that all the world must give ear to the Pope? Nay, M. harding, Chrysostom saith much better: 
Chrysost. In Genesin, Homil. 2.  Because God speaketh not now unto us in such familiar sort, Ergo, Suam erga Homines amicitiam innovare volens, quasi longè absentibus literas mittit, conciliaturus sibi universam hominum Naturam: Therefore God minding to renew his favour to wards Man, sent (his Holy Scriptures, as it were) his Letters, thereby to reconcile to himself all Mankind. God speaketh not now unto us by his Angels: but he hath already spoken unto us, 
Hebrae. 1.  as S. Paul saith, 
Cala. 1.  by the mouth, and presence of his Only Son. And therefore he saith again, If an Angel from Heaven would now Preach unto us otherwise, than we have received, we should hold him accursed.  
But for the Unity, and quiet government of the Church of God, S. Paul saith, 
Ephes. 4.  Christ ascending above all the Heavens, hath given (not One Universal Pope to rule the whole, but) some Apostles, some prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors, some Doctors, for the perfiting of the Saints, for the work of the ministery, for the building up of the Body of Christ, that we may all come into the Unity of Faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God. By these means God thought it sufficient, to preserve his Church in Unity, and never made mention of One Universal Pope.  
Therefore S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. De Simplicit. Praelatorum.  unus est Episcopatus, cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur: There is but One Bishopric, part whereof of every several Bishop is holden in whole. And again, Ideò plures sunt in Ecclesia Sacerdotes, ut, uno Haeresim faciente, coeteri subveniant: Therefore are there many Bishops in the Church, that if one fall into Heresy, 
Cyprian. Lib. 3.  the rest may help. 
Epist 13.  Thus, when Peter walked not uprightly to the Gospel, 
Galat. 2.  Paul came with help, 
Euseb. li. 5. ca 26.  and reproved him openly even to his face: 
Augusti. Episto. 28.  Thus Irenaeus reproved Pope Victor: thus sundry godly Fathers have reproved others. Therefore S. Augustine saith, Deus docuit Petrum per posteriorem Paulum. A quocunque enim Verum dicitur, illo donante, dicitur, qui est ipsa Veritas: Thus God instructed Peter by Paul his p●n●e, that was called after him. For by whom so ever the Truth is spoken, it is spoken by his gift, that is Truth itself.  
Ye say, the Pope succeedeth not Christ in all his Substance, that is to say, in all his Power: 
In Concil. Lateran. sub julio.  neither hath there any such fond saying been uttered (say you) at any time by the Divines. If this be true, wherefore then be these words written, and so well allowed of in the Council of Laterane, 
In Concil. Lateranen. sub Leone, In Oratione Stephani Patracensis.  Tibi data est Omnis Potestas, in Coelo, & in Terra? Unto your Holiness all Power is given, as well in Heeven, as in Earth. Wherefore is bernard so well allowed to force the same farther with these words: Qui totum dedit, nihil excludit: He that hath given thee Al, hath excepted Nothing. Wherefore is Panormitane allowed to say, 
To Foresake the Pope.  Papa potest omnia, quae Deus ipse potest? The Pope is able by his power to do, what so ever God himself can do.  
For the rest, 
Panormitan. De Electio. Ca Licet.  M. harding saith, One King is able to rule One Kingdom: Ergo, One Pope is able to rule the whole Church. This Reason is very simple, and is answered before. Of the government of Princes we have daily Practise: But of Popes, that ever exercised this Universal Dominion over the whole Church of God, M. harding is not able to show us one. Well were it with him, if he were but a Member of Christ's Body, and a Sheep of his Flock. S. Gregory said sometime to john the Bishop of Constantinople, claiming unto himself the same Title, and thinking himself able enough to rule the whole, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38.  Quid tu Christo universalis Ecclesiae Capiti in Extremi judicij responsurus es examine, qui cuncta eius Membra tibimet conaris universalis appellatione supponere? What answer wilt thou make in the trial of the last judgement, unto Christ the Head of his Universal Church, that thus by the name of Universal Pishop, seekest to bring under thee all the Members of his Body?  
last of all, M. Harding concludeth without premises: Who so ever will not be ruled by this Shepherd, the Pope, is of the heard of antichrist. So saith one of the Pope's hired Proctors: 
De Maiorlt. & Obedient, unam Sanct. In Gloss.  Quicquid Saluatur, est sub Summo Pontifice: What so ever Soul is saved, it is under the Pope. This one thing being granted, M. hardings whole cause passeth clear.  
But, God be thanked, it appeareth already to all them, that have eyes to see, that we have not departed from the servile Obedience of that See, but upon just cause, and good advise. And in such sort the Pope himself will not deny, but it is lawful for any Church to dissent from the Church of Rome. These he his words, 
Dist. 12. Non. decet.  which must be holden for a Law: Quicquid sine discretione justitiae contra Romanae Ecclesiae Disciplinam actum fuerit, ratum haberi nulla ratio permittit: What so ever thing is done without discretion of justice, against the Order of the Church of Rome, it may not by any means be allowed. By which words it appeareth, Ex contrario Sensu, By an Argument of the contrary, that, what so ever is done by discretion of justice, notwithstanding it be against the Order of the Church of Rome, yet ought it to well allowed.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. De unitate Eccle. Catholica, Ca 10.  Ne Catholicis quidem Episcopis consentiendum est, sicubi fortè falluntur, ut contra Canonicas Scripturas aliquid sentiant: We may not give our consent unto any Bishops, be they never so Catholic, if they happen to be deceived, and to determine contrary to the Scriptures.  
And Pope Pius. 
Abbas Vrsper. Pag. 443.  2 himself saith, Resistendum est quibuscunque in faciem, sive Paulus, siue Petrus sit, qui ad Veritatem non ambulat evangelii: We are bound to withstand any man to the face, be it Peter, be it Pause, if be walk not to the Truth of the Gospel.  
To conclude, where the Wolf is broken in, it is best for the poor Sheep, to break out. That the Wolf was broken in, beside the cruel spoil, and ravening of Christian Blood, it is plain by the words of S. bernard. For thus he speaketh thereof in Open Council, & in the presence of sundry Bishops: Non custodiunt Gregem Domini, 
Bernardus in Concil. Remen. In eodem Concilio. Numer. 16.  ses mactant, & devorant: They keep not the lords Flock: but they kill it, and devour it. Again he saith, Propterea relinquamus istos, quia non sunt pastors, sed Traditores: Therefore set us leave them: For they are not Postours, but Traitors. And therefore God thus warneth us in the like case: Exite de medio horum hominum, ne cum illis pereatis: Go forth from the mids of those men, lest perish all together.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 3.  
For all the Apostles, 
The other Apostles equal with Peter.  as Cyprian saith, were of like power among themselves, and the rest were the same, that Peter was.  

M. harding.  
Power is double, 
Peter's Power Ordinary. The Apostles power Extraordinary. Peter is the Shepherd: The Apostles are the Sheep. Manifest, and mere Untruths.  the one Ordinary, the other by privilege or Extraordinary. Ordinary Power is that which continueth in one and the same course for ever. according to which Power Peter was Head of the Church, and his Successors after him. Power by Privilege, or Extraordinary is that which is given besides the common course by way of dispensation. As where the other Apostles should have received ordinarily their Power from Peter, as who had commission over all, both Lambs and Sheep, among whom the Apostles had their place: Chrisie by special grace preventeth ordinary course, and maketh them for the time, and in their Persons equal with Peter in the office of Apostleship. Thus concerning ordinary Power, Peter is Head of the Apostles, and by that reason they are subject unto him, as Sheep unto their Shepherd. But by Privilege true it is, as S. Cyprian saith, They were of like power among themselves. 
* Peter hath Power to him, and to his Heirs for ever: The Apostles have Power only for term of Life.  Now what odds there is berwixt an Ordinary authority of judging given to any Officer, for himself, and his Successors in that Office for ever, and a special Commission for life time only: so much is berwixte Peter and the rest of the Apostles.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
S. Cyprians words be plain: Hoc erant utique & Coeteri Apostoli, quod fuit Petrus, 
Cyprian. De Simplicita. Praelatorum.  pari consortio praediti & Honoris, & Potestatis, Sed exordium ab unitate proficiscitur, ut Ecclesia una monstretur: The rest of the Apostles were the same, that Peter was, all endued with one fellowship both of Honour, and of Power. Yet the Beginning is taken of One, to show, that the Church is One. But all these words, ●e they never so plain, are soon shifted by a Pretty Distinction, such as neither S. Cyprian, nor any other Learned Father, or Doctor ever knew.  
We are taught here to understand, that there are two Powers: The one Ordinary, the other Ertraordinarie. By Ordinary Power, saith M. Harindge, that is the say, by Order, and of Common Course, Peter appointed all the rest of the Apostles, and gave them Authority. And Christ also likewise gave them Authority, but by Extraordinary Power, that is to sat, bistoes Order, and out of Course. Or, to utter the matter in plainer wise, Peter gave power to the Apostles by his Usual Authority, and by dough form of Law: But Christ gave them Power, as M. harding saith, Only for the time, and by way of Dispensation, and besides the Law. And thus Peter is the Ordinary Head of the Apostles: Christ is their Head too, how be it, not in like sort, but Extraordinary. For, as touching Order of government, Peter is the shepherd, and the Apostles are the Sheep. All other the Apostles hold their Power, as by Copy, for term of Life: Peter only holdeth the same in Fee Simple, to him, and to his Heirs for ever.  
And, good Christian Reader, lest thou shouldest think, I have in scorn, and wilfully wrested M. hardings words, which otherwise might be uttered by him in some sober meaning: may it please thee by these few to consider, what certain others of that side have uttered, and published, touching the same.  
Petrus de Palude saith thus: 
Petrus de Palude De Potestae. Apostolor. Ar. 2. Petr. de Palade In eodem Arti.  Dico▪ quòd nullus Apostolorum, praeter Perrum, factus est à Christo Episcopus: I say, that none of the Apostles, saving only Peter, was made Bishop by Christ. And again, Videretur, in Novo Testamento, quòd alij Apostoli à Christo Nullam Potestatem jurisdictionis receperunt: & per consequens relinguitur, quòd Omnis Potestas jurisdictionis, quam habuerunt Apostoli, Specialiter post Christi Ascensum, fuit collata eis à Petro: It would appear, that in the New Testament the rest of the Apostles received no manner Power of Jurisdiction at Christ's hands: and so consequently it followeth, that all the Power of Jurisdiction, that the Apostles had, specially after Christ's Ascension, was given unto them by Peter. Again, he imagineth God the Father thus to say unto Christ: 
Petr. de Palude In eodem Cap. Petr. de Palude De Potestate Curator. Ar. 6.  Constitues eos Principes, non per te, sed per tuum Vicarium: Thou shalt make the Apostles governors over all the Earth, not by thee self, but by Peter thy Vicar. And again, Paulus, & alij Apostoli à Petro, non debuerunt praedicare in Ecclesia specialiter Petro commissa, nisi de eius licentia. unde à Christo habuerunt idoneitatem: à Petro autem Authoritatem: Paul, and the other Apostles might not Preach in the Church committed unto Pet●r, but with Peter's Licence. For of Christ they had only ability: but of Peter they received Authority.  
In like manner writeth Pope Nicolas, 
Extra. De Elect. & Electi potest. Fundamenta.  Petrum in Consortium Individuae Trinitatis assumptum, id, quod ipse erat, Dominus voluit nominari: Our Lord took Peter into the Fellowship of the Holy Trinity, and would have him called the same, that he was himself.  
By such Amplifications, and outrage in speech, it would appear, Christ were Peter's Vicar: and not Peter Vicar unto Christ. In this Sense, and meaning M. harding seemeth to say, that by Ordinary, and common Course of Law, the Apostles had all their Power, not from Christ, but only from Peter.  
But here M. harding unwares falleth into a marvelous inconvenience. For, these things thus granted, it must needs follow, that during the time of Christ's abode in Earth, the Apostles had no manner Ordinary Power at all: neither to Preach, nor to Baptize, nor to Bind, nor to Lose. For Heruaeus a Doctor of M. hardings side saith thus, 
Hernaeus, De Potestate Papae, Ca 21.  Sciendum, quòd, cùm Christus conversabatur cum hominibus, non fuit alius Papa praeter ipsum: nec Petrus tunc habuit potestatem Papalem: We must understand, that while Christ was conversant amongst men in Earth, there was none other Pope, but be alone: Neither than had Peter the Pope's Authority.  
So likewise saith Petrus de Palude: 
Petr. de Palude De Potesta. A postolorwn.  Non decebat esse simul, nisi unum Summum Pontificem. unde, Christo Ascensuro, debuit Petrus fieri Episcopus Summus, & non anteà: It was not meet there should be more than one Highest Bishop at one time. Therefore, when Christ was ready to Ascend into Heaven, it was convenient to make Peter the Highest Bishop, and not before.  
For so long time, Christ could not give his Apostles any Ordinary Authority: for M. harding telleth us, that his Power herein was Only Ertraordinarie: Of the other side, Peter could give them none: for as Heruaeus, and Paladensis say, Until Christ's Ascension he was not Pope.  
But to leave these vain Fantasies, not worth the hearing, S. Paul will soon remove all these doubts. 
Gala. 1.  Thus he writeth of himself: Paul the Apostle, not of men, nor appointed by men, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father. And S. Chrysostom hereof writeth thus, 
Chrysost in Epis. ad Galat. Ca 2.  Paulus nihil opus habebat Petro, nec illius egebat voce: sed Honore Par erat illi. Nihil enim hic dicam amplius: Paul had no manner lack of Peter: nor stood in need of his voice, or allowance: but in Honour was his Fellow. For I will here say no more. His meaning is, He was his better.  
How be it, what need words? Set contention apart: the case is clear. For it was not Peter, that breathed over the Apostles: It was not Peter, that said unto them, 
john. 20. Mark. 16.  Go to the lost Sheep of the house of Israel: Receive the Holy Ghost: Go into all the World, and Preach the Gospel. All this Power was given them by Christ alone, and not by Peter.  
Now, where as M. harding teacheth us, that Peter was the shepherd, and the Apostles the Sheep, making them all as much inferior unto Peter, as the Sheep is inferior unto the Shepherd, 
The other Apostles equal with Peter.  S. Jerome saith, Dices, Super Petrum fundatur Ecclesia: Licerid ipsum in alio loco super Omnes Apostolos fiat, & cuncti claves Regni Coelorum accipiant, & Ex Aequo super eos Ecclesiae fortitudo solidetur: Ye will say, The Church is founded upon Peter. notwithstanding in an other place the same thing is done upon all the Apostles: and all receive the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: 
Hierony. Aduer. Ioui●tan. Li 1. Origen. in Matthae. Tracta. 1.  and the strength of the Church is founded Equally upon them al. Likewise the Learned Father Origen saith, Quòd si super unum illum Petrum tantùm existimas aedisicari toram Ecclesiam, quid dicturus es de johann Filio Tonitrui, & Apostolorum unoquoque? If thou think, the whole Church was builded only upon Peter, what wilt thou then say of john the Son of the Thunder, and of every of the Apostles? Therefore S. Chrysostom of Peter saith thus: 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 83.  Duplex crimen erat: ium quia repugnavit, tum quia coeteris seipsum praeposuit: Peter was in double fault: both for that he withstood Christ, and also for that he set himself before the rest. S. Augustine maketh Peter Fellow, and Equal with the other Apostles: Inter se concorditer vixerunt Petrus, 
August. Epist. 86  & Condiscipuli eius: Peter and his Fellows lived agreeably together. And again, Christus sine personarum acceptione hoc dedit Paulo, ut Ministraret Gentibus, quod etiam Petro dederat, 
August. in Epist. Ad Galat. Ca 2.  ut Ministraret judaeis: Christ without any choice of persons, gave the same (Authority) to Paul, to Minister amongst the Heathens, that he gave to Peter, to Minister amongst the jews. And the very ordinary Gloze geoeth these words to S. Paul: Non didici ab. alijs, tanquam à Maioribus: sed contuli cum illis, tanquam cum amicis, 
Gloss. Galat. 2.  & Paribus: I learned not of (Peter, and) others, as of my betters: but I had conference with them, as with my Equals, and Friends. Likewise Paul himself saith, jacobus, Petrus, johannes, qui videbantur Columnae esse, dextras dederunt mihi, 
Gala. 2.  & Barnabae Societatis: James, Peter, and John, that seemed to be the Pillars, gave unto me, and Barnabas the right hands of Fellowship: Which the Gloze expoundeth thus, Societatis, id est, Aequalitatis: Of Fellowship, that is to say, of Equality.  
Therefore, notwithstanding M. hardings Ordinary, and Extraordinary Distinctions, S. Cyprians words are plain, and true, The rest of the Apostles were even the same (in Authority) that Peter was, all endowed with One Fellowship, both of Honour, and of Power.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 4.  
And that it was said indifferently to them all, Feed ye: indifferently to them all, Go into the whole world: indifferently to them all, Teach ye the Gospel.  

M. harding.  
We deny, that it was said indifferently to them all, Feed ye. Yea, or that it was said at all, Feed ye. 
* Untruth most vain, and manifest.  To Peter and none else was it said, Feed my Lambs, Feed my Sheep. 
john. 21.  Which Word of Feeding so singularly spoken to Peter in the presence of the other Apostles, proveth, that it was not indifferently said to all, Feed ye. That they were sent into the whole World, and that they were commanded to teach, 
Mark. 16.  and in that respect also to Feed, we confess under the distinction of Ordinary and Extraordinary Power before mentioned.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It forceth not greatly, what M. harding deny, or grant, having neither Reason, nor Authority, but only his own. But if Power were not given indifferently to all the Apostles, tell us then, wherein is the odds? What had Peter more? What had the others less? Or what Old Doctor, or Learned Father ever saw this Difference?  
Christ said equally unto them all, Rece●●● the Holy Ghost: Whose Sins ye forge●ue, they are forgiven: Go into the whole World: Preach the Gospel to every Creature. These words pertain equally unto al. Peter had no more the Holy Ghost, no more Power to forgéeve Sins, no more Commission to go into the whole World, no more Authority to Preach the Gospel, than others had.  
M. harding saith, To the rest of the Apostles it was not said at all, Feed ye. 
john. 21. Marc. 13.  To Peter, and to none else, was it said, Feed my Lambs: Feed my Sheep. Yet Christ himself saith, Quod uni dico, Omnibus dico: That I say to One, I say to Al. 
Hierony. contra Jovinian. Li. 1. 1. Cor. 3.  And S. Jerome saith, as it is before alleged, All the Apostles received the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and the strength of the Church was built Equally upon them al. S. Paul saith: What is Peter, what is Paul, but the Ministers of Christ, through whom ye have believed? Paul hath planted: Apollo hath watered. He that planteth, 
Chryso. in Epist. Ad Gala. Ca 1.  is nothing: He that watereth, is nothing. Chrysostom saith: Angeli, quamliber magni, tamen servi sunt, ac Ministri: The Angels of God, be they never so great, yet are they but Servants, and Ministers. Therefore, to conclude, he saith: Ne Paulo quidem obedire Oportet, 
Chrysosto. in Epist. Ad Timoth. 2. Homi. 2.  si quid proprium dixerit, si quid humanum: sed Apostolo Christum in se loquentem circumferenti: We may not believe Paul himself, if he speak any thing of his own, or of worldly reason: but we must believe the Apostle bearing about Christ speaking within him.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 5.  
And, 
Ad Euagrium.  as Jerome saith, All Bishops where so ever they be, be they at Rome, be they at Eugubium, be they at Constantinople, be they at Rhegium, be all of like pre-eminence, and of like Priesthood. And, 
De Simpl. Pelator.  as Cyprian saith, There is but one Bishoplike, and a piece thereof is perfitly and wholly holden of every particular Bishop.  

M. harding.  
The Interpreter, not without the will and advise of this Defender, hath altered the Sense of the Latin, 
Untruth: Read the Answer.  as the Author of the Latin hath altered the words of S. Jerome. For neither speaketh S. Jerome of Bishops in the plural number, neither saith the Latin Apology, that the Bishops be all of like pre-eminence, which this Translation hath, but of the same Merit, and of the same Priesthood. With the word pre-eminence guilefully shifted into the sentence in place of this word Merit, these false players thought to win the Game. That is, that all Bishops, after the mind of S. Jerome be of like pre-eminence, and so that all be of like Power, and authority▪ and none above other.  
Concerning the place alleged, 
Hieromes place discussed.  S. Jerome in an Epistle to Euagrius speaking against that, a particular custom of the Church of Rome should Prejudicate the Authority of the whole world, in preferring Deacons before Priests, compareth Bishops of great Cities and little Towns together, and saith, that as touching the Honour, Dignity, and Power of Bishoply Order and Office. and of Priesthood, as good and as great a Bishop in that respect is the One, as the other: and that the Bishop of Eugubium, and Rhegium, two little Towns in Italy, and of Thebes an other little Town in egypt, are Bishops and Priests, and have as great 
* This was no part of the question.  Merit in regard of any their Virtues, and as great Power concerning the order of Priesthood, as the Bishops of Rome, of Constantinople, of Alexandria. Yet as touching Power and Authority of regiment, the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antiochia be above Bishops of other Dioceses, and the Bishop of Rome Peter's Successor is 
* Untruth: For the B. of Rome is equal with the other four patriarchs, as shall appear.  above al. For we being many are one Body in Christ, and every man among ourselves one an others members. This knot requireth a mutual consent of the whole Bod●e, but chief the concord of Priests: 
Epist. 84. Among Bishops is difference of Power with likeness of Honour.  among whom although dignity be not common to them all, yet order is general, as Leo writeth. For even among the most Blessed Apostles (saith he) in likeness of Honour there was odds of Power. And whereas the Election of them all was equal, yet to One was it given to be over the rest. Out of which plat rose the distinction also of Bishops, and with great Providence it hath been disposed, 
Equality of Bishops.  that all should not take all upon them, but that in every province there should be one, who might first give his sentence among his brethren: and again that in the great Cities some should be ordained for taking upon them matters of greater care, through whom the charge of the universal Church should have course to the one see of Peter, and that nothing should ever dissent from the Head.  
How great, and Honourable so ever the room is, that any Bishop is placed in, be he Archbishop, Metropolitan, Primate, Patriarch, or Pope himself: He is no more a Bishop, than any other of those, who occupy the lowest room. 
The diversity between Bishops, wherein it consisteth.  The diversity consisteth in this, that they are called to part of charge in sundry proportions, as the bishoprics are greater or lesser: the Pope hath committed unto him 
a Untruth: For Christ never gave the Pope any such charge.  the charge of the whole Fold of Christ, and hath the fullness of Power. For if all were of like Power, as these Defenders teach, Unity could not be maintained. Wherefore 
b Untruth: For Christ never gave such order.  by very order of Christ himself it hath been ordained, that matters touching Faith and Religion; at least such as be weighty, be referred to that one Prince of Pastors, who sitteth in the chair of Peter, the Highest Bishop, which hath 
c Untruth: For it hath not always been observed.  always been done and observed from the Apostles time to our days by Catholics, and not seldom also by Heretics.  
The sentence that this Defender allegeth out of S. Cyprian, it seemeth he understood it not. Ye say, that a piece of that one Bishopric is perfectly and wholly holden of every particular Bishop. But what mean ye by that? If by this word, In solidum, perfectly and wholly holden, ye mean, that every particular Bishop without is a Bishop depending of any other, than ye speak against the words ye bring out of S. Cyprian. 
De Simplicitate Praelatorum.  Who saith, that as there are many beams of one Sun, many boughs of one root▪ many Rivers of one Fountain: so there are many Bishops of one Bishopric. Therefore this Bishopric is unto particular Bishops, as the Sun, as the Root, as the Fountain. 
d Vatruth, impudent above measure.  What the Fountain, root, and Sun of this Bishopric is, S. Cyprian declareth a little before, she wing that it was said to Peter, To thee I will give the ketes of the Kingdom of Heaven. And, Feed my sheep.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here M. harding chargeth us with two of his own common faults: First with Corruption: next with Ignorance. With Corruption, in the words, and sense of S. Jerome: with Ignorance, in the place of S. Cyprian. But if we be able sufficiently, and truly to answer both, I trust, M. harding shall have no great cause, much to vaunt himself, either of his plain dealing herein, or of his knowledge.  
And here, to dissemble these childish causilati●ns of the altering of Numbers, the Singular into the Plural: and of the changing of this word, Merit, into this word, pre-eminence: which great fault, if it were any, by M. hardings own Confession, proceeded only from the Interpreter, and not from the Author: I say, to dissemble, and to pass by all these seely quarrels, what S. Jerome meant hereby, Erasmus a man of great Learning, and judgement, expoundeth thus: 
●rasm, in Scholar in Epist. ad Euagrium.  Hieronymus aequare videtur omnes Episcopos inter se, perinde quasi omnes ex aequo Apostolis successerint. Nec putat ullum Episcopum alio minorem esse, quód sit humilior: aut Maiorem, quód sit Opulentior: Nam aequat Eugubiensem Episcopum cum Romano, Deinde non putat, Episcopum quovis Presbytero praestantiorem esse, nisi quód ius habeat Ordinandi: Jerome seemeth to match all Bishops together, as if they were all equally the Apostles Successors. And he thinketh not any Bishop to be sesse then other, for that he is poorer: or greater than other, for that he is richer. For he maketh the Bishop of Eugubium (a poor town) equal with the Bishop of Rome. And farther he thinketh, that a Bishop is no better than any Priest, saving that the Bishop hath Authority to Order Ministers.  
But S. Hieromes words are plain of themself, and have no need of other expositor. 
Hierony. ad Euagrium.  Thus he writeth: Quid facit, excepta Ordinatione, Episcopus, quod Presbyter non faciat? Nec altera Romanae Vibis Ecclesia, altera totius Orbis existimanda est. Et Galliae, & Britannia, & Aphrica, & Persis, & Oriens, & India, & Omnes Barbarae Nationes unum Christum adorant: unam observant regulam Veritatis. Si Authoritas quaeritur, Orbis maior est Vrbe. Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus, sive Eugubij, sive Constantinopoli, sive Alexendriae, sive Tanai, eiusdem Meriti, eiusdem est Sacerdotij. Potentia divitiarum, & paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem, vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit. Coeterùm omnes Apostolorum Successores sunt. Quid mihi profers unius Vrbis consuetudinem? What doth a Bishop, saving only the ordering of Ministers, but a Priest may do the same? Neither may we think that the Church of Rome is one, and the Church of all the world beside is another. France, England, Aphrica, Persia, Leu●nte, India, and all the Barbarous Nations worship one Christ, and keep one rule of the Truth. If we seek for Authority, The whole world is greater than the City of Rome. Where so ever there be a Bishop, be it at Eugubium, be it at Rome, be it at Constantinople, be it at Rhegium, be it at Alexandria, be it at Tanais, they are all of one worthiness, they are all of one Bishopric. The Power of the Richesse, and the baseness of Poverty, maketh not a Bishop either Higher, or Lower. For they are all the Apostles Successors. What bring you me the Custom of Rome, being but one City?  
Now, if M. harding will steal away in the dark, as his manner is, and say, that S. Jerome spoke only of the Merit of Life, or of the Office of Priesthood, set some man tell him, that this was no part, neither of the question moved, nor of the answer of S. Jerome: And S. Jerome in plain, and express words saith, Si Authoritas quaeritur, If we seek (not for Merit of Life, but) for Authority in government, therein the whole world is great, than the City of Rome. M. harding imagineth, S. Jerome spoke only of, I know no what: but S. Jerome himself saith, he speaketh namely of Authority.  
And whereas M. harding is so highly offended with the changing of this word, Merit, into this word, pre-eminence, and saith farther, that these False platters thought thereby to win the game, it may please him to remember, that, how so ever the game go, S. Jerome himself plainly played the self same game: I mean, that S. Jerome using this word, Merit, without question meant, pre-eminence. For thus he saith, Potentia Divitiarum, & Paupertatis humilitas, vel Sublimiorem, vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit: The Power of Richesse, and the baseness of Poverty maketh not a Bishop either Higher, or Lower. M. harding might easily hauè seen, that Higher, and Lower, pertain not to Merit of Life, but to pre-eminence. Therefore let him look better upon his Book, before he thus lightly condemn others for corruption.  
I grant, it is true, as M. harding saith, This quarrel first began about a particular Custom of the Church of Rome, where as the Dra●ons Vaunted themselves, and would be placed above the Priests. But here M. harding, as his manner is, willingly dissembleth, and suppresseth somewhat. S. Augustine more lively, 
August. in quaes. veter. & Novi Testament. quae. 101.  and fully expresseth the same. For thereof he writeth thus: Quidam, qui nomen liabet Falcidij, Deuce stultitia, & Romanae Civitatis jactantia, Leuîtas Sacerdotibus, & Diaconos Presbyteris coaequare contendit: One Falcidius, Foolishness, and the Pride of the City of Rome leading him thereto, laboureth to make the Deacons Equal with the Priests.  
This lewd disorder S. Jerome controlleth by the Examples of other Churches, and saith, that therein the Authority of the whole world is greater, than the Authority of the Church of Rome: Of which also he seemeth to speak scornfully, and with some disdain. For thus he saith, Quid mihi profers unius Vrbis Consuerudinem? What bring you me the Custom of (Rome, being but) One City? By which words it seemeth, 
Pope Leo.  he made small account of the City of Rome.  
But M. harding saith, The Primates had Authority over other Inferior Bishops I grant: they had so. How be it, they had it by agreement, & Custom: But neither by Christ, nor by Peter or Paul, nor by any Kighte of God's Word. 
Hieronym. in Epist. ad Titum. Cap. 1.  S. Jerome saith, Noverint Episcopi, se magis Consuetudine, quàm Dispofitionis Dominicae Veritate, Presbyteris esse Maiotes, & in common debere Ecclesiam ●egere: Let Bishops understand, that they are above the Priests, rather of Custom, the● of any Truth, or Right of Christ's Institution: and that they ought to rule the Church all together. And again, Idem ergo est Presbyter, 
Hieronym. eod. loco.  qui Episcopus: Etantequam Diaboli instinctustudia in Religione fierent, & diceretur in populis, Ego sum Pauli, Ego Apollo, Ego Cephae, Communi Presbyterorum Consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur:, Therefore a Priest, and a Bishop are both one thing: And, before that by the inflaiminge of the Devil, parts were taken in Religion, and these words were uttered among the people, I hold of Paul, I hold of Apollo, I hold of Peter, the Churches were governed by the Common advise of the Priests. 
August. Epist. 19  S. Augustine saith, Secundum honorum vocabula, quae iam Ecclesiae usus obtinuit, Episcopatus Presbyterio maior est: The office of a Bishop is above the office of a Priest, (not by Authority of the Scriptuces, but) after the Names of Honour, which the Custom of the Church hath now obtained.  
As for Pope Leo, 
ff. Li. 2. De jurisdict. omnium judicum.  his own Authority in his own cause cannot be great. The Emperor saith, Nemo debet sibiius dicere: Noman may minister Low unto himself. And it is noted thus in the Decrees, Papa non debet esse judex in causa propria: The Pope may not be judge in his own cause.  
It is well known, 
16. q. 6. Consuetudo: In Mar●gine.  that the Pope hath sought for, and claimed this Universal Authority these many hundred years. Pope Innocentius was therefore reproved of Pride, and worldly lordliness by the whole Council of Aphrica: 
Concil. Aphrica. Ca 105. Superbum saeculi typhum. Inter Decretaé Bonifacij 2.  Pope Bonifacius 2. condemned ●. Augustine, & all the said whole Council of Aphrica, & called them all Heretics, and Schismatics, for the same, and said, they were all 
* Instigante Diabolo. Leo Epist. 89.  lead by the Devil: Pope Zosimus, to maintain this claim, corrupted the Holy Council of Nice: S. Hilary, and other Learned Bishops of France, for usurping such unlawful Authority, charged this same Pape Leo, of whom we speak, with Pride, and Ambition.  
But, gentle Reader, that thou ma●ste the better understand, what credit thou oughtest to give to this Pope Leo, specially setting forth his own Authority, I beséethe thee, consider, with what Majesty of words, and how far above measure, he avanceth the Authority of S. Peter. These be his words: Christus Petrum in Consortium Individuae unitatis assumpsit: Christ received Peter into the Company of the Indivisible Unity: 
Leo Epist. 89. Leo Epist. 52. Leo Epist. 89. Leo in cadem Epist.  Authoritate Domini mei Petri Apostoli: By the Authority (not of Christ, but) of my Lord Peter the Apostle: Deo inspirant, & Beatissimo Petro Apostolo: By the Inspiration of God, and of S. Peter the Apostle: Deus à Petro, velut à quodam Capite, dona sua velut in Corpus omne diffudit: God from Peter, as from the Head, 
Leo in Sermo. De Natali Petri & Pauli.  hath powered cut his gifts into all the Body: Nihil erit ligatum, aut solutum, nisi quod Petrus ligaverit, aut soluerit: There shallbe nothing bound, or loosed, but that Peter shall bind, or lose: Nunc quoque Petrus pascit Oues, & mandatum Domini Pius Pastor exequitur: 
Leo in Sermo. 3. In Anniucrsario die Assumptionis.  Even now Peter feedeth the Sheep, and as a Godly shepherd, he fulfilleth the commoundement of his Master. Such immoderate, and ambitious Dignity Leo was content to yield to Peter, to th'end that the possession, and fruit thereof might redound whelely unto himself.  
Some others have thought, that as well these Epistles of Leo, as also others more, 
Equality of Bishops.  of other the Ancient Bishops of Rome, have been interlaced, and falsified by the ambitious Popes, that followed afterward. Which thing is the more likely, 
Epist. julij 1. Extra De Elect. Fundamenta. Council Aphrica. Cap. 105. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 36.  both for that the self same words be likewise alleged, partly under the name of Pope julius, partly under the name of Pope Nicolas: and also for that Pope Zosimus, which was the fifth before Leo, as it is said before, doubted not for an advantage to falsify the Holy Council of Nice.  
Verily, when the Council of Chalcedon had offered unto this same Leo the Title of Universal Bishop, as Gregory witnesseth, he utterly refused it, and would none of it.  
Now touching that S. Jerome saith, the poor Bishop of Eugubium, and the Bishop of Rome are both of one Authority (For of Authority he speaketh, 
Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Nisi paucis desperatis, & perditis.  as it is proved before): S. Cyrian also saith the same, that the Authority of the Bishops in Aphrica is as good, as the Authority of the Bishop of Rome: and calleth them all Lewd, and Desperate persons, that will, as M. harding doth, safe the contrary.  
Therefore, whereas M. harding saith, By very Order of Christ himself it hath been Ordained, that matters touching Faith, and Religion be referred to that One Prince of Pastors, who sitteth in the Chair of Peter, the Highest Bishop, and that the same hath always been done, and observed from the Apostles time until our days: He bringeth us two manifest Untruths together, without any manner proof at all, only avouched upon himself. For it appeareth not, that Christ ever took this Order, or ever made any such mention, either of any such Prince of Pastors, or of Peter's Chair. And in the Council of Aphrica it was decreed, that no matters should be removed from thence to Rome. 
Concil. Aphrican. Cap. 92.  The words of the Council are these, Ad transmarina judicia qui pu●auerit appellandum, à nullo intra Aphricam in Communionem suscipiatur: Who so ever shall think be aught to appeal to the Judgementes beyond the Seas (that is, to the Bishop of Rome) let no man within Aphrica receive him to the Communion.  
touching that M. harding calleth the Pope the Prince of Pastors, he might have remembered, that the right of this name belongeth only unto Christ. 
1. Petr. 5.  S. Peter saith, That when Christ, the Prince of Pastors shall appear, ye may receive the Uncorruptible Crown. Now, to infeaffe the P●pe with Christ's peculiar Titles, a man might think it were great blasphemy. Certainly S. Cyprian saith, 
In Concil. carthaginian. Concil. Constantinop. 2. Ca 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Cyprian. De Simpl. Praelator.  Nemo nostrum Episcopum se esse Episcoporum constituit: None of us appointeth himself Bishop of Bishops: much less the Prince of all Pastors. And in the Council of Constantinople it was Decreed, that the Bishop there should have Even, and Equal Authority with the Bishop of Rome.  
As for the other Authority of S. Cyprian, M. harding saith, we understood it not: and therefore he willeth us, to look better upon our Books. The counsel is good. But if M. harding will grant, that S. Cyprian himself knew, what he himself wrote, and understood his own meaning, it shallbe sufficient. Verily the words that he useth, seem not so dark. For thus he writeth: Episcopatus unus est, cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur: Ecclesia una est, quae in multiudinem lati●s incremento Foecunditatis ex●enditur: Quomodò Solis multi radij, sed lumen unum: & ramiarboris multi, sed robur unum: The Bishopric is One, a part whereof of every several Bishop is possessed in whole. The Church is One, which by her great increase is extended unto many: As in the Son the beams be many, but the light is one: and in a Tree the boughs be many, but the body is One.  
If there appear any great darkness, or doubt in these words, S. Cyprian himself in other places thus expoundeth his own meaning in plainer wise: una est Ecclesia à Christo per totum Mundum in plura membra divisa: 
One Bishopric.  Item Episcopatus unus, 
Cyprian. Lib. 4. Epist. 2.  Episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus: There is One Church divided by Christ into many Members throughout the world: Likewise One Bishopric powered far abroad by the agreeable multitude of many Bishops, Again, Ecclesia una est, 
Cyprian. Lib. 4. Epist. 9  & connexa, & cohaerentium sibi invicem Sacerdotum glutino copulata: There is One Church, joined, and fastened in One, by the consent of bishops agreei●ge together. Again, Quando Oramus, non pro uno Oramus, sed pro toto populo: 
Cyprian. In Oration. Dominicam.  Quia totus populus unum sumus: When we pray, we pray not for One, but for the whole people: For we the whole people are but One. Again, immediately before these words, which, M. harding saith, we are not able to understand, he saith: Hanc unitatem firmiter tenere, 
Cyprian. De Simpli. Praelat.  & vendicare debemus, maximé Episcopi, qui in Ecclesia prae●idemus: ut Episcopatum quoque ipsum unum, & Indivisum probemus: This Unity must we hold, specially Bishops, that fit as Rulers in the Church: that we may declare our Bishopric to be One, 
Cyprian. Lib. 3. Epist. 13.  and without division. Again, Etsi Pastores multi sumus, unum tamen Gregem Pascimus: & Oues Vniversas, quas Christus Sangume suo, & Passione quaesivit, colligere, & fovere debemus: notwithstanding we be many shepherds, yet we Feed but One Flock: and we are all bound to gather up, and to nourish all the Sheep, that Christ hath won with his Blood, and Passion.  
If either the Author of the Apology, or the Interpreter understood not S. Cyprian, yet, M. harding, ye may give S. Cyprian leave, to understand himself.  
And in this sense S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. in Epist. ad Tit. Ca 1.  Communi Presbyterorum Consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur: The Churches were ordered (not by the Universal Authority of the Bishop of Rome, but) by the Common advise of the Priests. Likewise S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. Lib. 3. Epist. 13.  Ideircò copiosum est Corpus Sacerdotum, Concordiae mutuae glutine, atque Vniratis vinculo copulatum, ut si quis ex Collegio nostro Haeresim facere, & Gregem Christi laccrare, ac vastare tentaverit, subveniant coeteri: Therefore is the Body, or company of Priests so copious, joined together with consent of Concord and Unity, that if any one of our Company enterprise to raise an Heresy, and to scatter and waste the Flock of Christ, 
Basili. ad Neocaesarienses.  the rest should help. So likewise S. Basile: Interrogate Patres Vestros, & renuntiabunt vobis, quòd etiamsi loci situ divisae inter se sint Paroeciae, tamen veluti Coronamento quodam Vnitae, unaque sententia gubernatae fuerunt. Assidua quidem populi fuit inter se commixtio: Ipsi verò Pastores tanta praediti fuerunt mutua inter ipsos Charitate, ut alius alio Praeceptore, ac Duce usi fuerint: Ask of your Fathers, and they will tell you, that although bishoprics be divided, and sundered by distance of place, yet were they ever knit together as with a Garland, and ever ruled by One advise. In deed the People was ever mingled together: But the Bishops were all so joined in Charity, that every of them was content to be taught, and to be lead by other.  
Therefore, as many Faiths in sundry Faithefulles are but One Faith: as many Churches are but one Church: as many Baptisms are but one Baptism: Even so, saith S. Cyprian, many bishoprics are but One Bishopric: and therein, as well the Bishop of Rome, as also every other seucral Bishop, hath his portion.  
I say, The Bishopric of Rome is not this Whole Bishopric, but a part: Not the Body of the Sun, but a beam: Not the stem of the Tree, but a branch.  
And thus, by S. Cyprians mind, neither doth one Bishop hold of an other: Nor is any One Bishop Head of the Whole: Nor is One Bishop all in all: but all Bishops are only One.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 6.  
And according to the judgement of the Nicene Council, we say, that the Bishop of Rome hath no more jurisdiction over the Church of God, than the rest of the patriarchs, either of Alexandria, or of Antioch have.  

M. harding.  
If it be a shame to bely the Devil, according to the old Proverb, what is it to bely the Church of God represented in the Nicene Council?  
The sixth Canon among all others of the Nicene Council is that you ground your surmise upon, 
The sixth Canon of the Nicene Council declared to make against the Defenders,  I know well. For that hath been wrested to your purpose by certain of your side. And the same rightly construed 
A Untruth: For the express words are plain to the contrary.  maketh most against you. For it seemeth to acknowledge the Bishop of Rome his Supremacy and Sovereignty of judgement over other patriarchs. These be the words of the Canon rightly Englished head. Let the Ancient custom continue in force which is in egypt, Lybia▪ and Pentapoli: so that the Bishop of Alexandria have Power over them al. Quandoquidem etiam Episcopo Romano hoc consuetum est. 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  For as much as the B. of Rome hath thus used. Likewise in Antiochia also, and in other Provinces let the Churches keep their Prerogative. What can be gathered of the words of this Canon, but that for ratefiing the jurisdiction of the patriarchs of Alexandria, and Antiochia, the Fathers of the Nicene Council thought good to alter nothing: but to follow the Ancient custom of Old time used and allowed by the B. of Rome? For it is asmuch to say, as this: In asmuch as 
b Untruth Vain and childish.  the B. of Rome hath been wont from the beginning to grant to the B. of Alexandria jurisdiction over egypt, Lybia, and Pentapoli: the 
c This Exposition is like a sick● man's dream.  Nicene Council following his authority and rule, or at the least his usage, willeth and granteth, that the said Bishop retain and keep his ancient right. For if the B. of Alexandria had not received such jurisdiction by Authority and grant of the B. of Rome of old time, what reason should have moved those Fathers, for confirmation thereof to allege the custom of the B. of Rome? And in that case, 
D O folly. The words are plain: Quia Episcopo Romano parilis mos est.  whereto pertained the addition of the cause, Quia Episcopus Romanus hoc consuevit, because this was the Bishop of Rome his custom? If this had not been their meaning, they would never so have spoken. For what was his custom other, 
E Untruth: For the B. of Rome never had Power, to allot Provinces: but himself had his province allotted him, as well, as others. A Ne Recipiatur.  then to allot those Provinces to the B. of Alexandria? If any other thing be alleged to have been his manner and custom, besides that the words of the Canon bear it not, what had that been to the purpose, what so ever it be, for cause and confirmation of the B. of Alexandria his jurisdiction over egypt, Lybia, and Pentapoli? Allege you, Defender, for old custom of the B. of Rome, what else you list, so that you make no violence to the Canon, and thereupon make your argument, inferring of your allegation the Conclusion, (Ergo, the B. of Alexandria ought to have jurisdiction over egypt, Lybia, and Pentapoli): and you shall find it to be such an argument, as any Sot would be ashamed to make.  
Against this if it shall like you to Reply, we warn you before, that neither ye take advantage of a doubtful interpretation, as we know that Canon to be found in diverse Books not so plainly Translated, and therefore we require you to stand to the Original, as it is in Greek: neither that ye defend your lie with the wrested Exposition of Theodore Balsamon, 
Theodore Balsamon.  who hath written Greek Commentaries upon the Canons of the Counsels, sithence the schism of the Greeks, himself being a Schismatic. For he being a Greek borne, and prick● with the hatred of his Nation against the Latin Church, and specially the See of Rome: in th'exposition of that sixth Canon of the Nicene Council swerveth both from learning, and also from reason.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In deed it is a shame to bely any creature: for that lying is shameful of itself. And therefore, M. harding, ye might do much better, to use it less. You have brought us here an Exposition of the Council of Nice, such, as I think, from that time until this time hath seldom been heard of. You say, The Bishop of Rome's Custom was, 
TheConn cel of Nice  to give jurisdiction to the patriarchs of Alexandria, of Antioch, and of Jerusalem: and that they had none Authority of Government, but only so much, as was limited, and allowed by him. And this, you say, was the only, and undoubted meaning of that Council. This fantasy is not here avouched by any Ancient Doctor, or Learned Father. Therefore we must think, what so ever it be, it is your own. And weighing the strangeness of the same, I must needs say of you, as S. Jerome said sometime of one Rheticius in the like case, 
Hieronym. ad Marcellam.  Rheticius eloquens quidem est, sed ineptus Interpres: Rheticius is an eloquent man in deed: and yet but a fond Interpreter. For it is certain, and known even unto Children, that the Bishop of Rome, before the Council of Nice, had neither such Custom of Superiority, nor such dealing of jurisdictions. Pope Pius Secundus saith, 
Aeneas Silvius. Epist. 288.  Ante Nicenam Synodum unusquisque sibi vixit: & parvus respectus ad Romanam Ecclesiam halebatur: Before the Council of Nice, every Bishop lived to himself: and there was then small regard had to the Church of Rome.  
As for our sortishe Arguments, such as by your judgement any sort would be ashamed to make, I may leave them well to you, M. harding; not for that ye lack them greatly, but for that, as it appear the by your Books, ye know best how to use them.  
touching the sixth Canon of this Council, which, you imagine, is so dark, and doubtful, I trust, it shallbe plainly, and clearly opened, by them that were never hitherto accounted sottish.  
The words thereof are plain enough. The sense is this. The whole Body of Christendom was divided into four Patriarkshippes: whereof the First was Rome: the second Alexandria: the third Antioch: the fourth Jerusalem. And each of these was limited, and bounded within itself: Alexandria, to have the oversight over egypt, & Pentapolis: Antioch, over Syria: Jerusalem, over jury: Rome, 
Lipomanus in Praefatione. Copus Dial. 1. 16● Balsamonem Virum cerie docten  over Italy, and other Churches of the west. And herein we have the Exposition of Theodorus Balsamon, that lived five hundred years ago, and was Patriarch of Antioch, and, as some of M. hardings trendes have thought, a man of great Learning. Yet for as much as M. harding here utterly refuseth him, not only as a schismatic, but also as a man both of Learning, and Reason, let us therefore see some others.  
Nilus, a Greek Author, hereof writeth thus: Sed ut etiam liquidiùs appareat, 
Nilus, De Primatu Romani Pontificis. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  Papam non imperare alijs omnibus Episcopis, legatur Sextus Canon Synodi Nicenae: quo Disertè praecipitur, ut alijs Ecclesijs alexandrinus, alijs Romanus, alijs Antiochenus praesit: ut non liceat alteri alterius provinciam invadere: That it may the more plainly appear, that the Pope hath no Government over all other Bishops, read the Six the Canon of the Council of Nice. There it is expressly Commanded, that the Bishop of Alexandria shall have the rule over certain Churches: and the Bishop of Rome over certain: and the Bishop of Antioch likewise over certain: and that it be not lawful for any one of them to invade an others jurisdiction. Farther he saith, Quòd si quis suis non contentus, aliena appetit, ille san● meritò & Consuetudinis, & Sanctorum Canonum violator haberi debet: If any one (of these patriarchs) not contented with his own, crave Dominion over others, (as doth the Pope) he ought of right to be called a breaker both of the Custom, and also of the Holy Canons.  
If M. harding will yet say, 
Ruffinus Eccle. Historiae Lib. 1. Cap. 6.  this Exposition is sottish, let us see, in what sort Others have expounded the same. Rufinus opening the same Canon saith thus: Statutum est in Concilio Niceno, ut apud Alexandriam, & in Vibe Roma Vetusta Consue●udo servetur: 
Suburbicaru Ecclesiarum  ut vel ille Aegypti, vel hic Suburbicarum Ecclesiarum solicitudinem gerat: It was decreed in the Council of Nice, that in Alexandria, and in Rome the Old Custom should be kept: that the Bishop of Alexandria should rule over egypt: and the Bishop of Rome (not over all the world, but) over the Churches of his Suburbs.  
Likewise it was afterward ordered in the Council holden at Constantinople: Definimus Sedi Constantinopolitanae Paria jura, 
Concil. Constantinopo. 2. Cap. 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Nicepho. Lib. 12. Cap. 13.  & Privilegia cum Sede Veteris Romae: We Decree, that the See of Constantinople shall have Rights, and Priviseges Equal (and one) with the See of Old Rome.  
Therefore Nicephorus saith, Romano, & Constantinopolitano Episcopo Ex Aequo Paria sunt, & Dignitatis praemia, & Honorum iura: The Titles of Dignities, and rights of Honour, given to the Bishop of Rome, and to the Bishop of constantinople, are One, and Equal.  
For this cause Athanasius saith, 
Athanas. ad Solitariam Vitam agentes. Cod. De Sacrosanctis Ecclesijs: Omni innovatione. Concil. Aphrica. Cap. 105. Nilus, De Primatii Papa.  Roma erat Meeopolis Romanae Ditionis: Rome was the Mother Church (not of the Whole World, but) of the Roman jurisdiction. In like sort the Emporour justinian saith, Ecclesia Vrbis Constantinopolitanae Romae Veteris Praerogativa laetatur: The Church of Constantinople enjoyeth the Prerogative, or Privilege of the Church of Old Rome. So likewise S. Augustine, and other Learned, and Godly Bishops in the Council of Aphrica, understood the same Canon. And therefore they called the Pope's Presumption, craving Universal jurisdiction over all the World, Fumosum saeculi Typhum, The smoky Pride of the world. To conclude, Nilus saith thus, Nunc, cùm aliae Regiones assigna●ae sint Romano, aliae Alexandrino, aliae Constantinopolitano, non magis hi sub illo sunt, quàm ille sub hisce: seeing there be certain Countries appointed out for the Bishop of Rome, certain for the Bishop of Alexandria, and certain for the Bishop of Constantinople, they are now no more subject unto him, than he unto them.  
But all these perhaps were Sots, and their sayings S●ttishe: and noman is able rightly to understand these matters, but he that can say, Consuetudo, is Latin for a Commission: or, Mos parilis, for Universal jurisdiction.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 7.  
And as for the Bishop of Rome, who now calleth all matters before himself alone, except he do his duty, as he ought to do, except he minister the Sacraments, except he instruct the People, except he warn them and teach them, we say that he ought not of right once to be called a Bishop, or so much as an Elder. For a Bishop, as saith Augustine, is a name of labour, and not of Honour: that the man, that seeketh to have pre-eminence, and not to profit, may understand, himself to be no Bishop.  

M. harding.  
Neither the Bishop of Rome, 
An evil Bishop loseth not the name of a Bishop, though he lose the metite of a Bishop. Vide Augustin. Lib. 2. contra Epist. Parmen. Cap. 13. Tom. 7. 1. Tim. 2.  nor any other Bishop is worthy of the Name of a Bishop, except he do the duty of a Bishop. All this we grant. But that he ought not of right to be so called, of those whom he hath charge over, in case of omitting his duty: thereto we say, that although in respect of his domeanou● he be not worthy to be called a Bishop▪ yet in respect of the Vocation, Degree, and pre-eminence, though he leave his duty undone, for which he incurreth danger of damnation, that Title pertaineth unto him of good right, and so continually he is and aught to be acknowledged for a Bishop, though an evil and an unworthy Bishop: likewise a Priest. And whereas S. Augustine saith, that a Bishop is a name of labour, and not of Honour, he is to be understand so as the Scripture is: Which in some places speaking of two things, that are both in deed to be affirmed, the one being of more importance than the other, denieth the one in comparison of the other, etc.  
Yet it seemeth to be a secret preparation toward a purpose against such time, as the Prince's Government shall mislike their fantasies. For where they Learned this Opinion, concerning Bishops, there Learned they also the like, concerning Civil Magistrates. I mean Wicklef. Among whose Heretical articles condemned by the Church in the Council of Constance, 
A Bishop no Bishop.  this is reckoned for the fifteenth: Nullus est Dominus Civilis, nullus est Praelatus, nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali. That is to say, None is a Temporal Lord, none is a Prelate, none is a Bishop, so long as he is in deadly sin.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This matter shall need no great contention. The like words have been uttered by sundry other Holy Fathers. S. Chrysostom saith, Multi Sacerdotes, 
Chryso. in Matthae. Homil. 43. Chrysost. in eod. Homil.  & Pauci Sacerdotes: Multi nomine, Pauci Opere: Many Priests there be, and few Priests there be: Many in name, and few in Labour. Again, Quomodò potest esse Magister, qui Discipulum non habet? Acquire Discipulum, & esto Magister: How can he be a Master, 
Ambro. De Dignita. Sacerdotali, Cap. 4. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist 32.  that ●ath no Scholare? Geate thee a Scholar, and then be a Master. S. Ambrose saith, Nisi bonum Opus amplectaris, Episcopus esse non potes: Oulesse thou embrace the good labour, a Bishop thou canst not be. S. Gregory saith, Sacerdotes nominamur, & non sumus: Priests we are called, but Priests we are not.  
As for Wicklefe, he expoundeth plainly his own meaning, and that with M. hardings own Construction. For these be his words, even as they are alleged by his enemies: Papa, 
In Concil. Constantien. Session. 15  vel Praelatus malus, & Praescitus, est aequivocè Pastor: & verè Fur, & Latro: The Pope, or any other wicked Prelate, in double or doubtful speech is a Postour: but in very deed he is a Thief, and a Murderer. So Chrysostom saith: Qui ab hominibus ordinatus est, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 53.  quantum ad Deum artinet, non est Sacerdos, aut Diaconus: He that is appointed by men (and not by God) before God, is neither Priest, nor Deacon.  
If Wicklefe, upon just zeal of the House of God, for that he then saw, the Bishops either knew nothing, or did nothing, or cared for nothing, either spoke, or meant more, than Truth may bear, we defend it not. notwithstanding, touching that is objected of deadly sin, it seemeth, he followed therein the Council of Valentia in France. 
Concil. Valentin. sub Damas'. ca 4.  The words be these: Quicunque sub Ordinatione, vel Diaconatus, vel Presbyterij, vel Episcopatus, Mortali Crimine dixerint se esse pollusos, à supradictis Ordinationibus submoveantur: Who so eves after the Order, either of Deaconship, or of Priesthood, or of Bishopric, shall say they have been defiled with Mortal Sin, let them be removed from the foresaid Orders.  
So. S. Augustine saith, as he is alleged by Gratian, 
2. Quae. 7. Qui nec regiminis.  Qui nec sua crimina detersit, nec filiorum crimen correxit, Canis impudicus dicendus est magis, quàm Episcopus: He that neither hath wiped of his own fins, nor corrected the Sins of his Children, ought rather to be called a shameless Dog, than a Bishop.  
Yet notwithstanding, to remove all strife, what so ever the Bishop of Rome be, or what so ever he do, let him hardly be called a Bishop, because, as M. harding saith, he standeth in room of a Bishop: Or, as Wicklefe saith, let him so be called. Aequivocè, that is to say, by a word of double meaning: as unsavoury Salt is called Salt: Or as the Prophets of Baal are called Prophets: Or as a painted Man is called a Man: And as S. Gregory saith, Let him he called a Priest, although in deed he be no Priest. Let him be called a Teacher, although he Teach not: Let him be called a feeder, although he Feed not. S. Cyprian saith of S. Paul, Ipsum, 
Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Concil. Trident. De Sacrament Ordinis. Athanasius Ad Solitariam Vitam agentes. Hieron. in Soph●niam, Cap. 1.  quamuis inane Nomen, & Vmbram quandam Sacerdotis cogitans, expavit: S. Paul was afroide, considering only the empty Name, and Shadow of a Bishop. And in the late Council of trident the matter is concluded thus, Qui dicit, cos, qui non exercent Ministerium Verbi, & Sacramentorum, non esse Sacerdotes, Anathema sit: Who so ever say, that they, that Minister neither the Word of God, nor the Sacraments, be no Priests, Accursed be he. But Athanasius saith, Quid opus est hominibus titulo Episcopis? What need have we of these men, that bear only the name of Eishoppes? Therefore S. Jerome saith, Auferet Dominus Nomina Vanae gloriae, & Admirationis falsae, quae versantur in Ecclesia. Sed & Nomina Sacerdotum cum Sacerdotibus dotibus aufere●, 
Proud. Name.  qui frustrà sibi applaudunt in Episcopali, & in Presbyterij Dignitate, & none in Opere: The Lord shall take away the names of Vain glory, and of ●●ined woo●dering, which are in the Church: Yea he shall take away both the names of those Priests, and the Priests withal, which vaunt themselves in the Dignity of Bishopric, and priesthood, but not in the Labour.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 1.  
And that neither the Pope, nor any other worldly Creature can no more be Head of the whole Church, or a Bishop over all, than he can be the Bridegroom, the Light, the Salvation, and Life of the Church. For these Privileges, & Names belong only to Christ, and be properly, and only sfitte for him alone.  
And that no Bishop of Rome did ever suffer himself to be called by such a proud name & title, before Phocas the emperors time (who, as we know, by killing his own Sovereign Mauritius the Emperor, did by a Traitorous Villainy aspire to the Empire) Which was about the sixth hundredth and thirteenth year after Christ was borne.  

M. harding.  
The name of Universal Bishop, 
Universal Bishop.  which this Interpreter meaneth, being taken in a right sense, is no proud name, in respect of him, 
* Untruth, For it belongeth not unto the Pope.  to whom it belongeth. Whether any Bishop of Rome ever suffered himself to be called by that name, of no, as you deny it, and prove it not, so it forceth not whether any did so, or no. If they refused it of humility, that proveth it not to be Unlawful.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If the name of Universal Bishop be a Proud Name in others, why may it not also be a Proud Name in the Bishop of Rome? Hath the Bishop there such a special Privilege for Pride above all others? May Pride be Humility, and Humility Pride, only in respect of diverse persons? You say, This Title of right belonged to the Bishop of Rome: and therefore in him it was no Pride. This, M. Harding, is a fowl Untruth, as it shall appear by the next Division. For these be the words of the Council of Carthage, as Gratian allegeth them: universalis autem (Episcopus) nec ipse Romanus Pontifex appelletur: 
Distin. 99 Primae Sedis.  The Bishop of Rome himself may not be called the Universal Bishop.  
That the Old Learned, and Godly Bishops of Rome refused this Name, as Proud, and arrogant, it is so plain by S. Gregory, that I marvel, any Learned man would call it in question. His words thereof be these: Nullus Decessorum meorum hoc tam Profano Vocabulo uti consensit: 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 32. & 36.  Nullus Romanorum Pontificum hoc Singularitatis Nomen assumpsit: Nos hunc honorem nolumus oblatum suscipere: None of my Predecessors Bishops of Rome, ever consented to use this ungodly Name: No Bishop of Rome ever took upon him this Name of Singularity: We, the Bishops of Rome, will not receive this honour being offered unto us.  
If the Bishops of Rome in Old times refused this Name, not for want of right, but only, as M. harding saith, of Humility, wherefore then did their Successors, that followed afterward, so ambitiously labour to get the same? Platina saith, 
Platina in Bonifa●io. 3.  Bonifacius Tertius obtinuit à Phoca, Magna tamen Contentione: Pope Bonifacius the third obtained of the Emperor Phocas that Rome should be called the Head of all Churches) but with Great Contention, and much ado. Wherefore then doth S. Augustine, & the whole Council of Aphrica condemn the attempt of this usurped jurisdiction, 
Proud Name.  and call it Fumosum Saeculi Typhum? The smoky Pride of the World: And that even in the Bishops of Rome.  
If the Bishop of Rome be so full of Humility, as we are here borne in hand, why advanceth he himself so High above all General Councils? Why saith he, that no Creature may judge his doings? Why claimeth he the Sword and Sceptre of all the World? Why saith he, that Christ's Consistory, and his Consistory are all One, and that he can do, all that God himself can do? Why doth he say, That the Emperor is but the Proctor, or bailiff of the Church of Rome: 
Distinct. 98. Si Imperator. In gloss.  Procurator, sfive Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae? Why doth he suffer Kings, and Emperors to hold his Stirope, to lead his Palfrai, and to kiss his foot? Verily this kind of Humility in other places might go for Pride. Hesychius saith, 
Hesychius. Sen. Lib. 4. 〈◊〉. 17. Curerg●. Dist. 40. Mul●i.  Vbi Superbia regnat, & Hypocrisis, Humilitas locum non habet: Where Pride, and Hypocrisy bear the sway, there Humility can have no place. Likewise Chrysostom saith, Quicunque desideraverit Primatum in Terra, inuenie● in Coelo confusionem: nec inter servos Christi computabitur, qui de Primatu tractaverit: Who so ever defireth Primacy in Earth, in Heaven he shall find Confusion: Neither shall he be accumpted among the Servants of Christ, that will once entreat of Primacy.  
To conclude, a Learned Man, one of M. hardings own side, hereupon hath noted thus: 
Heruaeus, De potes●ate Papae. Cap. 13.  Bonifacius obtinuit à Phoca, ut Ecclesia Romana esset Caput Omnium Ecclesiarum. Ex quo posset modo consimili sumi Argumentum, qu●d ad Imperatorem pertineat, Primatum Ecclesiae transfer, & de Ecclesijs Ordinare: Pope Bonifacius the third obtained of the Emperor Phocas, that the Church of Rome should be the Head of all Churches. Whereof we may in like case gather an Argument, that it belongeth to the Emperor, to translate the Primacy of the Church, and to take Order for the Churches.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 2.  
Also the Council of Carthage did circumspectly provide, that no Bishop should be called either the Highest Bishop, or Chief Priest.  

M. harding.  
Here by your leave, Sir Defender, you play false, and are taken, as it were, with false Dyse, and therefore ye ought justly to lose all that ye have unjustly won by your false play, 
Falsefieinge of a Council.  and false dice: I mean your shameful falsefieinge of this Council by you alleged. And for this and other your falsehood it is right you lose the credit, which unjustly (because by false teaching) you have won among the Unlearned. 
M. Harding is a merry man.  That your false play might not soon be espted, you do as like to Master jewel, as though you were his Father's Son. For that false sleight he useth more, than any that ever I read. For where as we have seven Councils of Carthage, nether show you, which of them it is that you allege, nor give any notice of the number, where the Canon may be found. But contrariwise as the Lap wing with her busy cry leadeth a man from her nest, so you lead us from the Place, where it is, by putting in the Margin of your Book the number, 47. that not finding it by your note, 
johan. 5.  we should give over further looking for it. Who doth evil, hateth Light, saith Christ. So here falsefieing 
* Untruth. For, this Canon will soon be found.  and forging a Canon of a Council, you would feign walk in clouds, that your lying might not be deprehended, etc. So had it been done more circumspectly for furtherance of your false head, if the matter should never come to trial of Learning.  
Now, who so ever examineth the place truly, must needs cry out shame on you, Defender, who are th'author. 
The 26. Canon of the thirds Council of Carthage discus. sed.  The words, if you had listed to have alleged them without falsehood, be these, Which we find in the 26. Canon of the third Council of Carthage, which Council was Authorized by the sixth general Council holden at Constantinople in Trullo. Vt primae sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum, aut Summus Sacerdos, aut aliquid huiusmodi, Sed tantùm, Primae Sedis Episcopus. And thus they are to be Englished. It hath liked us (say the Fathers of that Council) that a Bishop of a First See be not called Prince of Priests, or Highest Priest, or any such other thing, 
highest Bishop, Prince of Priests.  but only a Bishop of a first see. Now cometh me this iotly Defender, and saith the Council of Carthage hath by express words, (for so much his Latin foundeth) that no Bishop should be called either the Highest Bishop, or Chief Priest. By which Canon thus by him untruly uttered, he thought to deprtue the Pope of this 
* Untruth, as shall appear.  Ancient Title, that all the world hath ever attributed unto him, so as he be called no more Summus Pontifex.  
For the right understanding of this Canon two things are to be considered. 
Vile Epistolam 〈◊〉 9 ad Petrum & johannem Aph●ic● Episcopos.  How far the Authority of this Council ought to be extended, and what is meant by a first See. 
* Untruth. For this Council namely restraineth the B. of Rome.  The Decrees of this Council pertained but to the Province of afric. For provincial Councils bind only the provinces, in which, and for Order of which they be kept. Only the General Councils are to be received of al.  
By these two words, 
Prima Sedes, what it meaneth.  Prima Sedes those Fathers understood any City, in which a Patriarch of Primate, who are of one office, though of diverse names, hath his see. I call it a first see, or rather (if it might be permitted) a Primate see. 
* Untruth▪ grounded upon a fable  In great Cities where the Highest courts for justice were kept, 
Distin. 99 de Primatibus.  and where the chief pagan Priests of the latins named, Primi Flamines, were resident before the coming of Christ, there after Christ's coming were patriarchs or Primates placed: by whom the weight matters of Bishops should be decided 
* Untruth, grounded as the Former.  Which Order was taken first by commandment of S. Peter, 
Dist. 99 C. Proninciae.  as Clement writeth: by the Apostles and Clement, as Anacletus witnesseth: by the Apostles and their Successors afterward, as Lucius the Pope saith.  
Now the Council of Carthage by this Defender alleged, and likewise the Aphrican Council ordained and willed, that a Bishop of any of the Primate Sees of Aphr●ke should not be called, Princeps Sacerdotum, aut Summus Sacerdos, Prince or chief of the Priests, or High●st Priest: by which word a Bishop is there signified: But only a Bishop of the Primate See, whereof he was Primate. By which Decree they willed 
* Most manifest & most vain Untruth. For the words of the Council are these: universalis autem nec etiam Romanus pontifex appelletur.  only their Primates of afric to keep themselves within their limits, and not presumptuously to take upon them more glorious Titles, and further jurisdiction, then to them pertetned, Lest surely they might seem to prejudicate the Pope's Supremacy. Thus it is evident, th'authority of that Charthage Council, being restrained to ●phrike only, that by this Canon the Pope's Prima ie and Title is no Whit diminished or disproved. And so for all this Defender, he remaineth as he hath 
* A great Untruth.  ever, Highest Bishop.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What, M. harding, so much falsehood upon us at one time? falsifying of Councils: Shameful falsifying: False teaching: False sleight: False Dise: False Play: and all False? Yet Christ saith of himself, I am the Truth. God give you grace, to credit him. For the error of quotation in the margin, wherein you spend so many words, it may please you to know, that I neither was the Printer, nor could be present at the printing. For the rest, if there can be any one point of Falsehood found in me, touching the allegation of this Council of Carthage, I will not refuse to stand charged with the whole. But if every of these horrible Falseheddes be found an evident, and plain Truth, than it may please you, to take home all these pretty Titles to yourself again, as in every of these words so often doubled, and so heapte together, having yourself committed a several Falsehedde.  
And herein for trial of your courteous dealing, I am content, yourself shall fit, and be the judge. For, notwithstanding it be thought of many, that ye dissemble deeply, and will not bestow your voice to say the Truth: Yet I doubt not, but in this matter, if ye have eyes, ye may easily look up, and see the Truth.  
You say, Sir Defender hath falsely alleged the Council of Carthage. And why so? For that he saith, The Council Decreed by express words, that the Bishop of Rome should not be called the Universal Bishop. This, you say, is Forged, and Falsified, and is no part of that Council. For indifferent trial both of the Truth, and of the Falsehood herein, I beseech you, behold the very words of the Council, 
highest Bishop, Prince of Priests. Disti. 99 Primae.  even as they are alleged by your own Doctor Gratiam. These they are: Primae Sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum, vel Summus Sacerdos, vel aliquid huiusmodi: Sed tantùm, Primae Sedis Episcopus. universalis autem nec etiam Romanus Pontifex appelletur: Let not the Bishop of any of the first Sees be called the Prince of Priests, Or the Highest Priest, or by any other like name: but Only, the Bishop of the first see. But let not the Bishop of Rome himself be called the Universal Bishop. And in the Gloze thereupon it is noted thus, In hac Distinctione dicitur, quod Papa non debet dici universalis: In this Distinction it is said, that the Pope ought not to be called the Universal Bishop.  
Now, M. harding compare our words, and the Councils words both together. We say none otherwise, but as the Council saith, The Bishop of Rome himself ought not to be called the Universal Bishop. Herein we do neither add, nor minish, but report the words plainly, as we find them. If you had looked better on your Book, and would have tried this matter, as you say, by your Learning, ye might well have reserved these uncivil reproaches of Falsehedde to yourself, and have spared your Crieinge of Shame upon this Defender.  
touching, that you so pleasantly cheer yourself with these words, You do as like to M. jewel, as if you were his Father's Son▪ I must answer you, as S. Augustine sometime did the Heretic Cresconius: 
August. Contra Cresc. Li. 3. Ca 38  Serua potius Puerilia Pueris: Keep such Childish toys to play with your Children. God make us both like unto our Father that is in Heaven.  
Where you say, of yourself only, without farther witness, that this Title is the Pope's Ancient right, ever given to him by all the world, I doubt not, but the untruth hereof by my Former Reply, 
Artic. 4. Gregor. Lib. 7 Epist. 30.  touching the same, may soon appear. Certainly, when the same Title was offered to S. Gregory, he refused it utterly, as none of his.  
In deed, this Council of Carthage notwithstanding, the Title of Highest Bishop was sometimes given, not only to the Bishop of Rome, & other patriarchs, but also unto all other Bishops. 
M. Hardinge● Amphilochius. Rufinus, Lib. 2. Cap. 23.  M. hardings own Amphilochius calleth S. Bastle Principem Sacerdotum: The Prince, or Chief of Bishops Rufinus: calleth Athanasius, Pontificem Maximum: The Highest Bishop. Nazianzenus calleth the same Athanasius Archisacerdotem Sacerdotum: The Chief Bishop of Bishops Lactantius. calleth every Bishopric Summum Sacerdotium. 
Nazian. Ad H●ronem.  Likewise S. Jerome saith, Ecclesiae Salus in Summi Sacerdotis dignitate pendet: The safety of the Church standeth in the dignity of the Highest Priest. 
Lactan. Lib. 4. Cap. 30.  By which Highest Priest, M. harding himself saith, is meant every several Bishop within his own Diocese. S. Augustine saith, 
Hieron, contra Luciferianos. M. harding in his Answer to the Apology, Fol. 204. b.  Quid est Episcopus, nisi Primus Presbyter, hoc est, Summus Sacerdos? What is a Bishop, but the First, or Chief Priest, that is to say, the Highest Priest? Therefore we may safely spare the Pope this Title, of Highest Bishop, not as Peculiar to him alone, as M. harding imagineth, but as Common, and General to all Bishops.  
All that ye have here alleged of the jurisdiction of the Flamines, is a mere fantasy▪ grounded only upon an unsavoury Fable of Anacletus, and Clemens. Neither are you able to find, 
In Quaest. Ex utroque Testamen▪ mixtim, Qu. 100L.  either these names, Archiflamines, or Protoflamines, which here are imagined, in any Ancient allowed Writer, or any such Universal jurisdiction to them belonging.  
The first, or Principal, or Mother Sees were limited, not by the Flamines, but by the Prince. 
Concil. Chalced. Cap. 12.  So it is written in the Council of Chalcedon: Quascunque Civitates per Literas Regias Metropolitico nomine honorarunt: 
A Primate See.  What Cities so ever by the Prince's Charter, they honoured with the name of the Mother See. And therefore the Emperor Theodosius upon displeasure conceived, 
Chrys. ad Popul. Antiochen. Homi. 17.  took that Name of Honour from the City of Antioch, minding it should be so called no more. And for that cause was the City of Rome chosen amongst others to be a Primate, or a Principal Mother See, not for that either Christ, or Peter had so appointed, as M. harding telleth us, but for that it was the most Noble City, and of greatest renown in all the world. 
Concil. Chalced. Ca 28.  The words be plain: Sedi Veteris Romae Patres meritò dederunt Primatum, Quòd illa Civitas aliis Imperaret: The Fathers worthily gave the chiefty to the See of the Old Rome: Because that City had the Princehood over others.  
Now concerning this Decree of the Council of Carthage, it touched as well the Bishop of Rome, as other Primates. And therefore Pope Adriane afterward alleging, and corrupting the same, added thereto this special Proviso for himself: Nullus Archiepiscoporum, nisi qui Primas Sedes renent, appelletur Primas, aut Princeps Sacerdotum, 
Adri●●. Papa. In Capitulis ex Synodis, & Canonib. diuer. collec. To. 2. Pag. 611.  aut Summus Sacerdos, aut aliquid huiusmodi etc. salva semper in omnibus Authoritate Beati Petri Apostoli: Let no archbishop, saving such, as have the Principal, or first Sees, he called either the Primate, or the Prince of Priests, or the Highest Priest, or by any other like name, etc. saving always, and in all things the Authority of Blessed S. Peter the Apostle.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 3.  
And therefore sithence the Bishop of Rome will now a days so be called, & challengeth unto himself an Authority that is none of his: besides that he doth plainly contrary to the Ancient Councils, and contrary to the Old Fathers: We believe, that he doth give to himself, as it is written by his own Companion Gregory, a presumptuous, a Profane, 
All these be the Words of Gregory.  a Sacrilegious and Antichristian name: that he is also the King of Pride, that he is Lucifer, which preferreth himself before his brethren: that he hath forsaken the Faith, and is the Forerunner of antichrist.  

M. harding.  
Here is much ado about nought, and a number of bitter words piked out of S. Gregorio● Epistles, pretended to be written against the Bishop of Rome, to no purpose. For if we say, 
* Untruth. For Platina saith, Bonifacius 3. Obtinuit à Phoca, Magna tamen Contentione.  as we may say truly, that he challengeth to himself no such name, than what hath this Defender to say? Let him show us how many Bishops of that see ever took the name of the Universal Bishop upon them, specially as Gregory understandeth it to signify. If he can show none, why blotteth he so much paper with so impudent lies?  

* There appeareth no such matter in all that Councils.  In deed the six hundred and thirty Fathers of the general Council of Chalcedon gave to Pope Leo that name, as Gregory in three sundry Epistles writeth, and certain other in their writings have attributed to the Pope the same. But that either Leo, or any other his Successor 
a Untruth, As appeareth by the Former Authority of Platina.  affected so to be called, Gregory denieth● 
b Untruth, As further appeareth by the Answer.  And that any since Gregory's time to our days ever called or wrote himself Universal Bishop, we deny.  
Whereas Pelagius, and Gregory, writing against the Presumption of john the Bishop of Constantinople for taking upon him this name, are much alleged by the enemies of Unity, against the Authority of Peter's Successor over the whole Church: we say, that they following the sleppes of their Predecessors refused the name of Universal Bishop in such sense, as Pelagius, and specially Gregory oftentimes declareth, that where one is called Universal Bishop, he seemeth to be called 
* Untruth, and most Vain fantasy. For no Bishop of Constantinople ever dreamt of such Authority.  Bishop alone, 
Universal  so as Bishopric should be taken away from all others. But they refused not so to be called after this meaning, as though by that refusal the Authority of the Bishop of Rome should be restrained, and not extend over the whole Church. They deny, that any man might so be Universal Bishop, as he should be also the peculiar ruler, and Governor of every particular Church. For so all other Bishops had been in vain: and that is contrary to Christ's Institution, who ordained all the Apostles to be Bishops. To say all in few, they refused the name that might odiously be taken, they refused not the Primacy 
* Untruth. For Christ never erected any such Primacy.  which Christ to them had committed. Therefore Gregory writing to Morris the Emperor, alleging the words that make for Peter's Authority over the whole Flock of Christ, saith of Peter, 
* The like whole Charge was given to Paul, john, and Mathewe: as shall appear.  The Charge of the whole Church and Principality is committed to him, and yet is he not called Universal Apostle. Where it is plain, that Gregory doth both affirm the charge of the whole, and denieth the name of Universal. Let these Defenders grant the thing, and we strive not for the name.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here it pleaseth M. harding of his Courtesy to say, We have blotted our papers with so many, & so many impudent Lies. His whole discourse standeth only in the Construction of this word, Universal, in what sense it may be either refused, or claimed. How be it, understand thou, gentle Reader, that all this is M. hardings own only Commentary. For other Doctor, or Father he allegeth none.  
first, where it is said, that S. Gregory by this word, Universal Bishop, meant him, that would be Bishop alone over all the world, excluding all others, this exposition is not only strange, but also vain, and fond, and void of reason. For what Bishop of Constantinople ever was there, that called himself the Only Bishop, and excluded all others? doubtless john, that first laid Claim unto this name, as he called himself the Universal Bishop, so he wrote his Letters unto others, and never refused to call them Bishops.  
But, to leave these Gloss, and fantasies, by the Title of Universal Bishop, S. Gregory meant such a one, not, as would be Bishop alone, but as would claim Infinite Authority, and Universal jurisdiction over all other Bishops throughout the World: and that, as S. Cyprian saith, would call himself, Episcopum Episcoporum: The Bishop of Bishops.  
Therefore S. 
Cyprian. in Con●cil. Carthagin. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38.  Gregory thus writeth unto john the Bishop of Constantinople. the first Usurper of this Title: Quid tu Christo universalis Ecclesiae Capiti in Extremi judicij responsurus es examine, qui cuncta eius Membra tibimet conaris universalis appellatione supponere? What answer wilt thou make unto Christ the Head of the Universal Church, when thou shalt be examined at the last Judgement, (not that thou haste called thee self the Only Bishop, but) that thus goest about by the name of Universal Bishop to make all his Members subject unto thee? It was this Immoderate Universal. jurisdiction, that S. Gregory reproved, and not the making of himself Bishop alone, excluding all others.  
Likewise he writeth of himself unto Eulogius: 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 30.  Beatitudo vestra mihi sic loquitur, Sicut jussistis. Quod Verbum jussionis, peto, à meo auditu removete. Non jussi: Sed quae utilia visa sunt, indicare curavi: Your Holiness saith thus unto me, (being the Bishop of Rome) As you have Commanded. Have away this word of commanding from my Hearing, I beseech you. I Commanded you not: but that I took to be the best, I thought good to show you. The fault therefore, that Gregory findeth with john the Bishop of Constantinople, stood not in calling himself the Only Bishop, for so he never did, but in Bidding, & Commanding, & Claiming Universality of jurisdiction over the whole Church of Christ. And for that cause he saith unto Eulogius: 
Gregor. Lib. 7. Epist 30.  Ecce in Praefatione Epistolae, quam ad ●●eipsum, qui prohibui, direxistis, Superbae Appellationis Verbum, universalem me Papam dicentes imprimere Curastis. 
Universal.  Quod, peto, dulcissima mihi Sanctitas vestra ultra non faciat: quia vobis subtrahitur, quod alteri plusquam ratio exigit praebetur: Behold even in the Title of your Letter ye have written this Proud Posee, naming me The Universal Pope: notwithstanding I have forbidden it. I beseech your Holiness, to do so no more. For what so ever is given unto any other above reason, the same is taken from yourselves.  
M. harding saith, Gregory affirmeth the Charge of the whole, and denieth the name of Universal. Let these Defenders (saith he) grant the thing, and we strive not for the name. Verily this play had been to vain for Children: to allow the thing itself, and to cavil only about the name: that is to receive the Body, and to shun the Shadow: 
Ma●t. 23. Appianus: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Or, as Christ saith, to swallow a Camel, and to strain a gnat. So App●an saith, julius Caesar nicely refused to be called a King: and yet in all manner Authority, and Government bore himself none otherwise, then as a King.  
It was not the bare Name of Universal Bishop, that so much offended the Holy Fathers: but the Pride, and Tyranny, and Universal Government, & jurisdiction, that is signified by that name. If the name were nought, then was the Usurpation of the thing itself a great deal worse.  
But S. Gregory saith, The Charge, and Principality of the whole Church was committed unto Peter. This is not denied. In like sort Chrysostom saith, The like Charge, and Principality of the Church was committed unto Paul. For thus he writeth, 
Chrys. in Sermo. De Eleemosy. Chrysost. in Act. Homili. 53.  Paulo Totus Orbis creditus est Paulus gubernat Orbis Ecclesiam: Paulus universum gubernat Orbem: Unto Paul the whole World is committed: Paul governeth the Church of the World. Paul ruleth the whole world. And yet Chrysostom meant not hereby, that Paul had the Universal Government of the whole: but that his care, & Charge was general, 
Chrysost. De Laudibus Pauli, Homil. 2.  as not bound or limited unto one place, but indifferent, & common unto al. So he saith, Paulus tam anxi● omnium salutem curabat, ●c si Totus Mundus unica esset Domus: Paul was so careful for the Salvation of all men, as if the Whole World had been but one House. 
Chrys. in Homil. De Profectu evangelii. Chrysost. ad Popul. Antioch. Homil. 73.  Again, Paulum tangebat solicitudo Omnium Ecclesiarum: non Vn●us, aut Duarum, aut Trium, sed Omnium, quae erant per Orbem Terrarum: Paul was moved with the care of All Churches: not of One, or Two, or Three, but of All the Churches throughout the World. Likewise he saith of S. john, Columna erat Omnium, quae in Orb sunt, Ecclesia●um. He was the Pillar of All the Churches in the World. Likewise again of S. matthew, Matthaeus universi Orbis curam gerebat: The Whole World was under Mathewes Charge. 
Chrysost. in Prologo in johan. Chrys. in Matthae. Homil. 48.   
Therefore if M. harding will gather out of these three words of S. Gregory (Totius Ecclesiae Cura) that Peter had Universal jurisdiction over all, it must needs follow by the same words, that Paul, john, and matthew had the same jurisdiction over al. What other thing he hopeth to gain by these Words of S. Gregory, I cannot tell: unless happily he will found his reason thus: S. Gregory saith, Petrus universalis Apostolus non vocatur: Peter is not called the Universal Apostle: Ergo, The pope is the Universal Bishop.  
So handsomely these things are gathered together, to serve the Purpose.  
Pope Leo, ye say, of Humility refused this Name openly in the Council of Chalcedon. In deed Pope Gregory so reporteth it. notwithstanding it appeareth not by any thing done in that Council, that this Title was ever offered him. And to refuse a thing before it be offered, it is no great point of Humility.  
To be short, the best we can gather hereof, is this: john the Bishop of Constantinople ambitiously craved this name: Pope Leo godly refused it being offered unto him: The Pope's afterward gladly received it without offering. If it were a good name, 
Universal  why was it refused? If it were an ill name, why was it received?  
Now let us see, what they of M. hardings side have meant by this word, Universal, and with what Humility the Popes have received the same. Thus therefore they writ: 
a Abbas. De Concess. Praeben. Quia diversita.  Papa est Ordinarius Totius Mundi: The Pope is the Ordinary of all the World. 
b Extra, De Appel▪ We debitus, In Gloss.  Papa est Ordinarius Omnium hominum. The Pope is the Ordinary of All men: 
c Extra. De statu Regulari, Periculoso. In Gloss.  Papa Totius Orbis obtinet Principatum: The Pope hath the Princehood of All the World: And when the Pope is Consecrate, the Chief Minister saith unto him, 
d Ceremoniar. Lib. 1. Cap. 4.  Ego investio te de Papatu, ut Praesis Vrbi, & Orbi: I do investe thee with the Popedom, that thou mayst rule both the City, and the World.  
And whereas M. harding demandeth, how many Popes have claimed this name, it may please him to remember, that in the late Council of Constance it was not only claimed, but also published, as an Article of the Faith. The words are these, 
e Paralipome. Vrspergen. De Disputatione Lipsica.  De necessitate Salutis est credere, Papam esse Oecumenicum: It is of the necessity of Salvation to believe, that the Pope is the Universal Bishop.  
Of this Universality of Power Franciscus Zarabella writeth thus: 
f Francis. Zarabella.  Papa iam occupavit Omnia iura inferiorum Ecclesiarum, ira▪ ut inferiores Praelati sint pro nihilo: The Pope hath now gotten the right of All Inferior Churches, so that the Inferior Prelates stand now for nothing.  
For these causes Gregory calleth the name of Universal Bishop. a Profane, a Presumptuous, a Wicked and Antichristian name: Comparing the Usurper thereof with Lucifer, and antichrist.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 1.  
Further we say, that the Minister ought lawfully, duly, and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Church of God, and that noman hath Power to wrest himself into the Holy ministery at his own pleasure. Wherefore these persons do us the greater wrong, which have nothing so common in their mouths, as that we do nothing Orderly, and comely, but all things troublesomely, and without order: and that we allow every man to be a Priest, to be a Teacher, and to be an Interpreter of the Scriptures.  

M. harding.  
Ye say, that the Minister ought lawfully to be called (for so hath your Latin) and duly and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Church of God. Why do ye not so? Why is not this observed among you Gospelers? What so ever ye mean by your Minister, and by that office, 
* Untruth. For it is known▪ we have them.  this are we assured of, that in this your new Church, Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Subdeacons, or any other Inferior Orders ye have none.  
For whereas after the Doctrine of your New Gospel, like the Forerenners of antichrist, ye have 
* Untruth. For we have abandoned neither the Priesthood, nor the Sacrifice, that Christ appointed.  abandoned thexternal sacrifice, and Priesthood of the New Testament, and have not in your Sect consecrated Bishops, and therefore being without Priests made with lawful laieinge on of hands, as Scripture requireth, all Holy Orders being given by Bishops only: how can ye say, that any among you can lawfully Minister, or that ye have any lawful Ministers at all?  
This then being so, let me have leave to oppose one of these Defenders consciences. And that for the better Understanding I may direct my words to a certain person, let him be the Author of this Apology, or because his name to me is unknown, let him be M. jewel. For with him gladly would I reason in this point, the rather for acquaintance, and for that he beareth the name of a Bishop in that Church, where myself had a room. How say you, Sir Minister Bishop, ought the Minister to be lawfully called? aught he duly and orderly to be preferred to that office, or (as the Latin here hath) promoted, or put in Authority over the Church? in the Apology this Defender saith, yea.  
How many Bishops can you reckon, whom in the Church of Salesbury you have succeeded as well in Doctrine, as in outward sitting in that Chair? How many can you tell us of, that being your Predecessors in order before you, were of your Opinion, and taught the faithful people of that Diocese the Doctrine, that you teach? Did Bishop Capon teach your Doctrine? did Shaxton● did Campegius? did Bishop Audley? Briefly, did ever any Bishop of that See before you teach your Doctrine? 
* Untruth. For B. Shaxton, and B. Capon taught the same.  It is most certain they did not.  
If you cannot show your Bishoply Pedigree, if you can prove no Succession, then whereby hold you? Will you show us the Letters patents of the Prince? Well may they stand you in some steed before men: before God, who shall call you to account for preswninge to take the Highest office in his Church 
* Untruth. For he was chosen by Canonical Election of the Chapter, as all other Bishops have been before.  not duly called thereto, they shall serve you to no propose.  
You know what Tertullian saith of such as ye be: 
In praescriptionibus adversus Haereticos. These be tertullian's words.  Edant Origines Ecclesiarum suarum, etc. We say likewise to you M. jewel, and that we say to you, we say to each one of your Companions: Tell us the Original and first springe of your Church. She we us the Register of your Bishops continually succeeding one an other from the beginning, so as that first Bishop have some one of the Apostles, or of the apostolic men for his Author, and Predecessor. For by this way the apostolic Churches show what reputation they be of. As the Church of Smyrnae telleth us of Polycarpe by john the Apostle placed there. The Church of the Romans telleth us of Clement ordained by Peter. 
Epist. 165.  S. Augustine having reckoned up in order the Bishops of Rome to An astasius Successor to Siricius, who was the eight and thirteth after Peter, saith that in all that Number and roll of Bishops there is not found One, that was a Donatisie: and thereof he concludeth, Ergo, the Donatists be not Catholics. So after that we have reckoned all the Bishops of Salisbury from Bishop Capon upward, we shall come at length in respect of Doctrine and Orders to S. Augustine the Apostle of the English, who was made Bishop by Gregory, and from Gregory upward to S. Peter. And in all that rewe of Bishops 
* Untruth, By your own Confession.  we shall find never a one that believed, as M. jewel believeth. Ergo, your Zwinglian and Calvinian belief, M. jewel, and of the rest of your fellows is not Catholic.  
Therefore, to go from your Succession, which ye cannot prove, and to come to your Vocation, how say you Sir? You bear yourself as though you were Bishop of Salisbury. But how can you prove your Vocation? By what Authority Usurp you the Administration of Doctrine and Sacraments? What can you allege for the right and proof of your ministery? who hath called you? Who hath laid hands on you? By what example hath he done it? How and by whom are you consecrated? Who hath sent you? Who hath committed to you th●ffice you take upon you? Be you a Priest, or be you not? If you be no▪ how dare you Usurp the name and Office of a Bishop? If you be, tell us 
Even he, that gave M. harding Orders in the time of K. Edward.  who gave you Orders? The Institution of a Priest, was never yet but in the Power of a Bishop. bishops have always after the Apostles time, according to the Ecclesiastical Canons, been consecrated by 
* Untruths two together in one Sentence: See the Answer.  three other Bishops, with the consent of the Metropolitan, and confirmation * of the Bishop of Rome.  
Macarius a Priest of Athanasius, 
Athanas. in Apologia. ●  (as it was laid to his Charge by his accusers) pulled Ischyras from the Altar as he was at 
A vain Untruth. For if it had been any thing, it had been a Communion, & not a Mass. But Athanasius saith plainly, Neque Ecclesia ibi erat, neque Sacra ficbant, neque tempus mysteriorum agebatur.  Mass, overthrew the Holy Table broke the Chalice. The matter brought to judgement, Athanasius and those Bishops both denied the fact and also though it were granted, yet defended the same as well done, because Ischyras was not a lawful Minister of the Church. And why so? because he was not lawfully made Priest, nor with Churchely laieing on of hands consecrated. By which example besides other points we are taught, what to judge of your pretenced Communion.  
Again what say you to Epiphanius, 
Contra H●res. ● Lib a. In Dialog● contra Luciferianos.  who writeth against one Zacchaeus of his time, for that being but a Say man, with wicked Presumption took upon him to * handle the Holy Mysteries, and rashly to do the office of a Priest? Hereof S. Jerome saithe not ably: Hilarius cùm Diaconus de Ecclesia recesserit, etc. Hilary for asmuch as he went from the Church being a Deacon, and is only (as he thinketh) the multitude of the world, can neither consecrate the Sacrament of th'altar being without Bishops and Priests, nor deliver Baptism without the ●uchariste. And whereas now the man is dead, 
Succession.  with the man also the sect is ended, because being a Deacon he could not consecrate any Clerk that should remain after him. And Church is there none, 
Sacerdoten.  which hath not a Priest. But letting go these few of little regard, that to themselves be both Lay and Bishops, listen what is to be thought of the Church. Thus S. Jerome there. In whom leaving other things I note, that if there be no Church, where is no Priest, Where is your Church like to become, 
M. hardings Brethren Apostates.  after that our Apostates, that now be fled from us to you, shallbe departed this Life? Therefore this being true, it remaineth, M. jewel, you tell us, whether your Vocation be Ordinary or Extraordinary. If it be Ordinary, show us the letters of your Orders. At least show us, that you have received Power to do the Office, you presume to exercise, by due order of laieinge on of hands and Consecration. 
* A manifest Untruth: For we have both Order, and Co● secration.  But Order, and Consecration you have not. For who could give that to you of all these New Ministers, how so ever else you call them which he hath not himself? If it be Extraordinary (as all that ye have done hitherto is besides all good Order) show us some Sign or Miracle. If you fail in all these, why ought not you to be put away?  
Finally what can you answer to that, 
Li. 1. Epist. 6  which may be objected to you out of S. Cyprians Epistle to Magnus, touching Novatian? It was at those days a question, whether Novatian baptized and offered, specially where as he used the Form, Manner, and Ceremonies of the Church. Cyprian denieth it. For he can not (saith he) be compred a Bishop, who setting at nought the Tradition of the Gospel, 
Eusebius Eccles. Hist. Li. 6. ca 43. in Graeco.  and of the Apostles, Nemini succedens à seipso ordinatus est, Succeeding no man is ordained Bishop of himself. For by no means may one have or hold a Church, that is not ordained in the Church.  
This being so, we do you no wrong, as ye complain, in telling you and declaring to the World, that touching the exercise of your ministery, ye do nothing orderly, or comely, but all things troublesomely and without Order. unless ye mean such Order, and comeliness, as thieves observe among themselves in the distribution of their Robberies.  
Lastly, 
M. hardings modesty.  if ye allow not every man, yea and every Woman to be a Priest, why drive ye not some of your fellows to recant, 
* An odious Untruth: For touching the ministery of the Church, we have neither Preached so, not written so.  that so have Preached? Why allow ye the Books of your New Evangelists, that so have written?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here hath M. harding taken some pains more than ordinary. He thought, if he could by any colour make the world believe, we have neither Bishops, nor Priests, nor Deacons this day in the Church of England, he might the more easily claim the whole right unto himself. And in deed, if it were certain, that the Religion, and Truth of God passeth evermore orderly by Succession, and none otherwise, then were Succession, whereof he hath told us so long a tale, a very good substantial Argument of the Truth. But Christ saith, 
Matthael▪ 23.  In Cathedra Mosi sedent Scribae, & Pharisaei: By order of Succession, the Scribes, and Phariseis sit in Moses Chair. Annas, and Ca●p●as, touching Succession, were as well Bishops, as Aaron, & Eleazar. Of Succession, S. Paul saith to the Faithful at Ephesus: 
Actor. 20.  Scio, qu●d post discessum meum intrabunt Lupirapaces. Ex Vobis ipsis exurgent viri perversa loquentes: I know that after my departure hence, R●ueninge wolves shall enter, and Succeed me. And out of yourselves there shall (by Succession) springe up men speaking perversely. Therefore S. Jerome saith, 
Dist 40. Non est Facile.  Non Sanctorum filii sunt, qui tenent loca Sanctorum: They be not always the Children of Holy men, that (by Succession) have the places of Holy men.  
notwithstanding the Pope himself will say, as it is before alleged, In Papa si desint bona acquisita per merirum, 
Dist. 40. Non nos.  sufficiunt, quae à Loci Praedecessore Praestantur: If the Pope want good things gotten by his own merits: the good things, which he hath (by Succession) of Peter his Predecessor, are sufficient. And the Gloze thereupon, Petrus fecit Papas Haeredes bovitatis suae: 
Succession.  Peter made the Pope's Heirs of his goodness by Succession. 
Dist 19 Sic Omn●●: In Gloss.  And again, Papa Sanctitatem recipit à Cathedra: The Pope receiveth his Holiness (by Succession) of his Chair.  
Such affiance sometime had the Scribes, and Phariseis in their Succession. Therefore they said, 
johan. 8. johan. 9  We are the Children of Abraham: Unto us hath God made his promises: Art thou greater than our Father Abraham? As for Christ, we know not, from whence he came, or what he can show for his Succession. And, when Christ began to reform their Abuses, and Errors, they said unto him, By what Power doest thou these things? 
Lucae. 20. Mare. 11. Beda in Luc. Lib. 5. Ca 80. cyril. in Cathena in Luc. 20.  And who gave thee this Authority? where is thy Succession? Upon which words Beda saith, Intelligi volunt, Diaboli esse, quod faci●: They would have the People understand (for that he had no solemn Succession) that all that he did, was of the Devil. And Cyrillus frameth their words in this sort: Tu Ortus ex Iuda commissos nobis fasces usurpas: Thou being of the Tribe of Juda, (and therefore having no right by Succession unto the Priesthood) takest upon thee the office, that is committed unto us. Likewise Chrysostom imagineth, the Phariseis thus to say: 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homi. 39  Tu de Sacerdotali Familia natus non es: Senatus tibi hoc non coucessit: Caesar non donavit: Thou art not of the house of Priests: The Council hath not granted it thee: The Emperor hath not geeven it thee. Thus to maintain themselves in credit, for that they had Succession, and continuance from Aaron, and sat in Moses Chair, they kept Christ quite out of possession: and said unto him then, even as M. harding saith now unto us: Who ever taught us these things before thee? What ordinary Succession, and Vocation haste thou? What Bishop admitted thee? Who confirmed thee? Who allowed thee?  
Therefore, good Christian Reader, let not these M. hardings great words much abash thee. The Scribes, and Phariseis in the like cases used the like language long ago.  
touching the Church of Rome, I will say no more for this present, but only, that was spoken openly by Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the late Council of trident: 
Cornel. Episco. Bitontin. in Concil. Triden.  utinam non à Religione ad Superstitionem, à Fide ad Infidelitatem, à Christo ad Antichristum, velut prorsus Vnanimes declinassent: Would God they were not all gone by consent together, from Religion to Superstition: from Faith to Jufidelitie: from Christ to antichrist. These few words, considering either the speaker, or the place, where they were spoken, may seem sufficient. They are gone from Faith to Infidelity: from Christ to antichrist. And yet all other things failing, they must hold only by Succession: and, only because they sit in Moses Chair, they must claim the possession of the whole. This is the right, and virtue of their Succession.  
The words of Tertullian, M. harding, which you have here alleged, were spoken of certain your Ancient Fathers, that had raised up a New Religion of themselves, as you have also done, without either Word of God, or example of the Apostles, and Holy Fathers. And therefore he saith, not unto us, but unto you, and such, as you be, Edant Origines Ecclesiarum suarum: Let them show forth the originals of their Churches. Even so we say unto you, show us the originals of your Doctrine: Show us any one of the Apostles of Christ, or of the Learned Catholic Doctors of the Church, that ever said your Private Mass: Show one at the least, either Greek, or Latin. S. Augustine saith, 
August. Epist. 165.  of so many Bishops of Rome, there could not one be found, that had been a Donatiste. Even so in like sort say we to you, of all the same Bishops of Rome, there cannot one be found, that ever agreed with M. harding in saying Mass. Or if there were any such, show us his name, with other Circumstances, when, and where, and who were witnesses of the doing. Show us your originals, 
Succession▪ Confirmation.  M. harding: Confess the Truth: Deceive us no longer: It is a new device: ye have it only of yourselves: and not by Succession from the Apostles.  
But wherefore telleth us M. harding this long tale of Succession? Have these men their own Succession in so safe Record? Who was then the Bishop of Rome next by Succession unto Peter? Who was the second? Who the third? 
Irenae. li. 3. ca 3. Euseb li. 5. cap. 5. Epiphan. L●b. 1. De Corpoerat. Optat. contra Donatist. lib. 2.  Who the fourth? Irenaeus reckoneth them together in this order: Petrus, Linus, Anacletus, Clemens: Epiphanius thus, Petrus, Linus, Cletus, Clemens: Optatus thus. Petrus, Linus, Clemens, Anacletus. Clemens saith, that he himself was next unto Peter: And then must the reckoning go thus: Petrus, Clemens, Linus, Anacletus. Hereby it is clear, that of the four first Bishops of Rome, M. harding cannot certainly tell us, who in order succeeded other. And thus talking so much of Succession, they are not well able to blaze their own Succession.  
I might farther say, that Peter's See apostolic was over the jews, and not at Rome over the Heathene. 
Calat. 2.  For so S. Paul saith, Mihi concreditum est evangelium Praepuiij, sicut Petro Circumcisionis: Qui potens erat Petro in Apostolatu Circumcisionis, Potens erat in me inter Gentes: The Gospel of the Uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the Gospel of the Circumcision unto Peter: God that was mighty in Peter in the Apostleship of the Circumcision, was mighty in me among the Heathens. Therefore if the Pope this day will claim only by Peter's Title, and require no more, then Peter had, then must he seek his Primacy amongst the jews, where Peter had his jurisdiction limited, and not at Rome among the Heathen Christians, among whom, as S. Paul saith, he had not much to do.  
Where you say, that according to the Ecclesiastical Canons, ever from the Apostles time, Bishops have evermore been Consecrate by three other Bishops, with the Confirmation of the Bishop of Rome, as if without him noman might be allowed to be a Bishop, ye should not so unadvisedly report so manifest Untruth. For, I beseech you, where be these Ecclesiastical Canons? Who devised them? Who made them? Who gave the Pope that singular Privilege, that no Bishop should be admitted in all the World, but only by him? I remember, your canonists have said, 
Felin▪ De Constitu. Ca Canonum S●atuta. Colum. 6. Ver. Fallit.  Papa potest Solo Verbo facere Episcopum: The Pope may make a Bishop only by his Word, without any farther Consecration. And Abbate Panormitane moveth a doubt, whether the Pope by the Fullness of his Power, may deprive all the Bishops in the World at one time. But thus they say, that care not greatly, what they say.  
Verily, 
Panor. De Constitution. Translato.  Nilus a Greek Writer saith thus, Constantinopolitanus Caesa●iensem Episcopum, aliosque sibi subiectos ordina●: Romanus verò nec Constantinopolitanum, nec alium quenquam Metropolitanum: The Bishop of Constantinople doth Order the Bishop of Caesaria, 
Nilus de Primatu Romani Pontificis.  and other Bishops under him: But the Bishop of Rome doth Order neither the Bishop of Constantinople, nor any other Metropolitan. But hereof I have spoken more at large in my Former Reply to M. harding. Certainly S. Cyprian willeth, 
Artic. 4. Diu. 25. Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 4.  that Sabinus, being lawfully elected, and Consecrate Bishop in Spain, should continue Bishop still, yea although Cornelius, being then Bishop of Rome, would not Confirm him.  
In deed, touching every metropolitans several jurisdiction, Gratianus noteth thus: 
Dist 64. Cap. ●in.  Illud generaliter clarum est, qu●d si quis praeter Sententiam Metropolitani fuerit factus Episcopus, hunc magna Synodus definivit Episcopum esse non Oportere: This is generally clear, that if any man be made Bishop without the consent of his Metropolitan, the great Council (of Nice) hath decreed, that such a one may not be Bishop.  
So likewise saith Socrates of the Bishop of Constantinople: 
Confirmation. Consecration.  Praeter Sententiam Episcopi Constantinopolitani Electio Episcopi ne fiat: Without the Consent of the Bishop of Constantinople let noman be chosen Bishop. Here is a right specially reserved to the Bishop of Constantinople, 
Socrates Lib 7. Cap. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and to every Metropolitan within his own Province: but of the Bishop of Rome's Universal right of Confirmation we hear nothing. Neither doth M. hardings counterfeit Anacletus claim all the Bishops through the world, as belonging to his Admission, but only a part. These be his words, Omnes Episcopi, qui huius Apostolicae Sedis Ordinationi subjacent: 
Ana●let. Episto. 3. Dist. 95. juxta Sanctorum.  All the Bishops, that are under the ordering, or Confirmation of this apostolic See. So likewise writeth Damasus to the Bishops of Illyricum, Par est, omnes, qui sunt in Orb Romano, Magistros consentire: It is meet, that all the Teachers within the Roman Jurisdiction, 
Sozomen. Lib. 6. Cap. 23.  should agree together.  
Again, that you say, A Bishop hath always been Consecrate by other three Bishops, whether it be true, or no, it may well be called in question, as being of your part hitherto very weakly affirmed. Surely Petrus de Palude, one of your own Doctors, 
Petr. de Palude, De Potestate Apost●l.  would have told you thus: In Ecclesia unus Episcopus suff●cit ad alium Consecrandum: nec est, nisi propter Solennitatem ab Ecclesia inventum, ut Tres concurrant: In the Church One Bishop is sufficient to Consecrate an other: and it is nothing else, but for the Solemnity of the matter, that the Church hath devised, that Three Bishops should join together. Likewise Ioha●●es Maior an other of your own Doctors would have said unto you, 
johannes Mayor in. 4. Sen●. Dist. 24. q. 3.  Quis Ordinavit Petrum? Non dabunt Tres Ordinatores. Dico ergo, esse Constitutionem Humanam, qu●d Episcopus Ordinetur à Tribus. Paulus enim non quaesivit Duos pro Ordinatione Titi, & Timothei: Who Ordered Peter, and made him Bishop? They cannot show me Three Bishops that ordered him. Therefore I say, that a Bishop be Ordered by other Three Bishops, it is an Ordinance made by Man. For Paul, when he Ordered Titus, and Timotheus, he sought not about for other Two Bishops.  
Whereas it farther pleaseth you, to call for my Letters of Orders, and to demand of me, as by some Authority, whether I be a Priest, or no: what hands were laid over me: and by what Order I was made: I answer you, I am a Priest, made long sithence, by the same Order, and Ordinance, and, I think, also by the same Man, and the same hands, that you, M. harding, were made Priest by, in the late time of that most Virtuous Prince King Edward● the sixth. Therefore ye cannot well doubt of my Priesthood, without like doubting of your own.  
Farther, as if ye were my Metropolitan, ye demand of me, whether I be a Bishop, or no. I answer you, I am a Bishop, and that by the Free and accustomed Canonical Election of the whole Chapter of Sarisburie, assembled solemnly together for that purpose. Of which company you, M. harding, were then One, &, as I was informed, being present there in your own person amongst your Brethren, gave free, and open consent unto the Election. If you deite this, take heed, your own breath blow not against you.  
As for the impertinente tales of Ischyras, and Zacchaeus, they touch us nothing. They were none of ours: We know them not. Our Bishops are made in Form, and Order, as they have been ever, by Free Election of the Chapter: by Consecration of the archbishop, and other Three Bishops: and by the Admission of the Prince. And in this sort, not long sithence, the Pope himself was admitted: and, 
Platina in ●e●erino Papa.  as Platina saith, without the emperors letters patents was no Pope: as hereafter it shallbe showed more at large.  
Therefore we neither have Bishops without Church, nor Church without Bishops. Neither doth the Church of England this day depends of them, 
Succession.  whom you so often call Apostates, as if our Church were no Church without them. They are no Apostates, M. harding: That is rather your own name, and of good right belongeth unto you. They are for a great part learned, and grave, and Godly men, and are much ashamed to see your follies. notwithstanding, if there were not one, neither of them, nor of us left alive, yet would not therefore the whole Church of England fice to Louai●e. Tertullian saith, Nun & Laici Sacerdotes sumus? Scriptum est, Regnum quoque, & Sacerdotes Deo, 
Tertullian. 〈◊〉 Exhorta. ad Castitatem.  & Patri suo nos fecit. Differentiam inter Ordinem, & Plebem constituit Ecclesiae Authoritas, & honour per Ordinis Consessum Sanctificatus à Deo. Vbi Ecclesiastici Ordinis non est Consessus, & Offered, & T●●g●● Sacerdos, qui est ibi solus. Sed & ubi Tres sunt, Ecclesia est, licet Laici. unusquisque enim de sua Fide vivit: And we being laymen are we not Priests? It is written, Christ hath made us both a Kingdom, and Priests unto God his Father: The Authority of the Church, and the Honour by the Assembly, or Council of Order Sanctified of God hath made a difference between the Lay, and the clergy. Where as there is no Assembly of Ecclesiastical Order, the Priest being there alone (without the company of other Priests) doth both Minister the Oblation, and also Baptize. Yea, and be there but Three together, and, though they be Latemennes, yet is there a Church. For every man liveth of his own Faith.  
Again, ye demand of me, what Bishop of Sacisburie ever since Augostines time maineteined this Doctrine. I might likewise, and by as good Authority demand of you, what Bishop of Rome ever before the same English Augustine's time maineteined your Doctrine? Or, as I said before, what Bishop of Rome ever before that time either said, or knew your Private Mass? touching the Bishops of Sarisburie, you yourself have already named two, Bishop Shaxton, and Bishop Capon, both Learned, and grave Fathers, and both Preachers, and professors of the Gospel. For the rest of the Bishops, that were before them, what Faith they held, and what they either liked, or misliked, by their writings, or Sermons it doth not greatly appear. I trust, they held the foundation, and lived, and died in the Faith of Christ. If they had lived in these days, and seen, that you see, they would not have been partakers of your wilfulness.  
To be short, we succeed the Bishops, that have been before our days. We are Elected, Consecrate, Confirmed, and Admitted, as they were. If they were deceived in any thing, we succeed them in place, but not in error. They were our Predecessors, but not the Rules, and Standards of our Faith. Or rather, to set apart all comparison of persons, the Doctrine of Christ this day, M. harding, succeedeth your Doctrine: as the Day succeedeth the Night: as the Light succeedeth Darkness: and as the Truth succeedeth Error.  
Now for as much, as ye have thought it so good, to examine the Petite degree of the Bishops of Sarisburie, I trust ye will not think it il, if I al●tle touch the like in the Bishops of Rome: that we may thereby be the better able to see some of the branches of your Succession. Therefore shortly to say, you know that Pope Marcellinus committed Idolatry: that Pope Sylvester. 2. was a conjuror, and gave himself whole Body, and Soul unto the Devil, and by the devils procurement was made Pope: That Pope Zosimus for ambition, and claim of government corrupted the Holy Council of Nice: That Pope Liberius was an Arian Heretic: That Pope Leo, as appeareth by the legend, was likewise an Arian: That Pope Coelestinus was a Nestorian Heretic: Pope Honorius was a Monothelite Heretic: Pope john. 22. was reproved by Gerson, and the School of Parise for an Heretic: Petrarcha saith, Rome is a Sanctuary of all Heresies: 
Succession of Popes.  Lyra saith, that many Popes have fallen into Heresies: 
Nicol. Lyra in Matthae. Ca 16.  you know, that Pope Hildebrande, as he was charged by the Council of Brixia, was an adulterer, a Churcherobber, a Perjured man, a Mankiller, a Sorcerer, and a Renegade of the Faith: That Platina calleth the Popes sometimes in scorn, 
Platina in Romano. 1.  Pontificulos, Little Petite Popes: sometimes Monstra, & Portenta, Monsters, and Unnatural, and il shapen Creatures. Pope Adrian the fourth was wont to say, Succedimus, non Petro in pascendo, sed Romulo in Parricidio: We Succeed, not Peter in Feeding, but Romulus in Killing. And to leave Dame johane the woman Pope, with many others more of like Virtue, and Holiness, as having no pleasure in this rehearsal: And, for as much as M. harding began this matter with Sarisburie, to end it with the same, 
johan. Sarisburien. in Polycratico.  johannes Sarisburiensis saith, In Romana Ecclesia sedent Scribae, & Pharisaei: In the Church of Rome (by Succession) sit the Scribes, and the Phariseis.  
This is M. hardings holy Succession. Though Faith fail, yet Succession must hold. For unto such Succession God hath bound the Holy Ghost. For lack of this Succession, for that in our Sees in the Churches of England, we find not so many Idolaters, Necromancers, Heretics, Aduouterours, Church-robbers, Perjured persons, Mankillers, Renegates, Monsters, Scribes, and pharisees, as we may easily find in the Church of Rome, therefore, I trow, M. harding saith, we have no Succession: we are no Bishops: we have no Church at al.  
But S. Paul saith, Faith cometh (not by Succession, but) by hearing: and hearing cometh, (not of Legacy, or Inheritance from Bishop to Bishop, but) of the Word of God. They are not always Godly, that Succeed the Godly. Manasses succeeded Ezechias: and Hieroboam succeeded David. By Succession the Turk this day possesseth, and holdeth the four great Patriarkal Sees of the Church, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. By Succession, Christ saith, 
Matthae. 24.  Desolation shall fit in the Holy place: and antichrist shall press into the room of Christ.  
It is not sufficient to claim Succession of place: It behoveth us rather to have regard to the Succession of Doctrine. 
Bernard. in Concilio Remen.  S. bernard saith, Quid prodest, si Canonice eligantur, & non Canonicè vivant? What availeth it, if they be chosen in Order, and live out of Ordere So saith S. Augustine, 
August. Contra Donatist. Li. 6. 1. q. 3. vocantur Canes.  Ipsum Characterem multi, & Lupi, & Lupis imprimunt: The outward mark, or right of a Bishop many give to wolves, and he wolves themselves. Therefore the Ancient Father Irenaeus giveth us this good Council: Eyes, qui sunt in Ecclesia, Presbyteris, obaudire oportet, qui Successionem habent ab Apostolis, 
Irenae. Li. 4. Cap. 43.  qui cum Episcopatus Successione, Charisma Veritatis certum, secundum beneplacitum Patris, acceperunt: It becometh us, to obey those Priests in the Church, which have their Succession from the Apostles: and together with the Succession of their bishoprics, according to the good will of God the Father, have received the undoubted gift of the Truth. S. Cyprian being likewise charged for dissenting from his predecessors, answereth thus: Si quis de Antecessoribus meis, non hoc obseruavit, & tenuit, quod nos Dominus exemplo, & Magisterio suo docuit, potest simplicitati eius venia concedi: Nobis ver● ignoici non potest, qui nunc à Domino admoniti, & instructi sumus: If any of my Predecessors have not observed, and kept the same, that our Lord hath taught us both by his example, and also by his Commandment, his simplicity may be pardoned. But we (if we do the like) can hope for no pardon, being now admonished, and instructed of our Lord.  
Compare the use, and order of our Churches, M. harding, with the Primitive Church of God, and ye shall easily see the right of our Succession. S. Cyprian saith: 
Confession not necessary.  Si Canalis aquae, quae copiose prius, & la●g●●●r proflu●ba●, subit● deficiat, nun adfontem pergitur? etc. Hoc & nunc facere oporte● Dei Sacerdotes. Praecepta Divina servants, ut in aliquo si nutaverit, 
Cyprian. ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephani.  & vacillaverit Veritas, ad originem Dominicam, & Euangelicam atque Apostolicam Traditionem revertamur: & inde surgat actus nostri ratio, unde & Ordo, & Origo surrexit: If the Pipes of the Conduit, which before ran with abundance, happen to fail, do we not use to search to the Head: etc. The Priests of God keeping Gods commandments, must do the same: that if the Truth have fainted, or failed in any point, we return to the very Original of our Lord, and to the Tradition of the Gospel, and of the Apostles: that therehence we may take the discretion of our doings, from whence the Order itself, and Original first began.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 1.  
Moreover we say, that Christ hath given to his Minister's power to bind, to loose: to open, to shut.  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The difference, that is between us, and our Adversaries in this whole matter, is not great: saving that it liketh well M. harding, to buste himself with peerless quarrels, without cause. Three kinds of Confession are expressed unto us in the Scriptures. The First made secretly unto God alone: The second Openly before the whole Congregation: The third Privately unto our Brother. Of the two former kinds there is no question. touching the third, if it be discreetly used, to the greater comfort, and satisfaction of the Penitent, without superstition, or other ill, it is not in any wise by us reproved. The Abuses, and Errors set apart, we do no more mislike a Private Confession, than a Private Sermon.  
Thus much only we say, that Private Confession to be made unto the Minister, is neither commanded by Christ, 
Chrysost. ad Hebraeos, homil. 30.  nor necessary to Salvation. And therefore Chrysostom saith, Non dico tibi, ut te prodas in publicum, neque ut te accuses apud alios: Sed obedire te volo Propherae dicenti, Revela Domino viam tuam: I will thee not to bewray thee self openly, nor to accuse thee self before others: But I counsel thee, to obey the Prophet saying, Open thy way unto the Lord.  
And Gratian, having thoroughly disputed, and debated the whole matter of both sides, 
De Poeniten di●● 1. Quamuit plenitudo.  in the end leaveth it thus at large: Cui harum sententiarum poti●s● adhaerendum sit, Lectoris judicio reseruatur: utraque enim fautores habet Sapientes, & Religiosos Viros: Whether of these two opinions it were better to follow, it is left to the discretion of the Reader: For either side is favoured both by Wise, and also by Godly men. Therefore the Gloze there concludeth thus: 
De Poeniten. dist. 5. In Poenitentia▪ In Glos.  Meli●s dicitur, Confessionem institutam fuisse à quadam universalis Ecclesiae Traditione potiùs, quàm ex Novi, vel Veteris Testamenti Authoritate: It is better to say, that Confession was Ordained by some Tradition of the Universal Church, then by the Authority of the New, or Old Testament. Likewise saith Theodorus sometime archbishop of Canturburie a Greek borne: 
De Poeniten. dist. 1. Quidam.  Quidam Deo solummodò confiteri debe●e peccata dicunt, ut Graeci: Some say, we are bound to confess our sins only to God, as do the Grecians. 
De Poeniten dist. 5. In Poeniten.  Whereupon the Gloze noteth thus: Apud Graecos Confessio non est Necessaria: quia non emanavit ad illos Traditio talis: among the Grecians Confession is not Necessary, for that no such Tradition ever came amongst them.  
But what need many words? M. harding himself in the discourse hereof is forced to confess, 
M. Har. soli. 71. ●  that the Express Term of Auriculare, or Secret Confession is Seldom mentioned in the Ancient Fathers. His tale had been truer, if he had said thus, The Express term of Auriculare, or Secret Confession is Never mentioned in the Ancient Fathers.  
Now to pass over certain other M. hardings unnecessary talks, he groweth to the matter in this sort:   

M. harding.  
Concerning the ministers of the Church, we say that they open and shut by dispensinge the Sacraments, who have their virtue of the merits of Christ. For where as the Sacraments have issued and flowed out of the side of our saviour Christ sleeping on the Cross, (as by allusion we may use the words of the old figure) wherewith the Church is builded, therefore in the Sacraments of the Church the efficacy of the Passion remaineth. And for that cause to the Ministers also of the Church, 
The Key of the Church.  who be dispensers of the Sacraments, a certain power is geeven to remove the bar, that excludeth us from God's favour, not through their own, but through God's virtue and power, and merit of Christ's Passion. And this power is called by a metaphor the Key of the Church, which is the Key of ministery: whereof we shall speak hereafter. This power, so much as concerneth release of sins, is exercised in the Sacrament of Penance to the benefit of them, 
For whom serveth the Sacrament of Penance. novatians denied Penance.  that after Baptism be relapsed, and fallen into sin again. Of which power no Christian man doubteth, unless he hold the Heresy of the novatians, who were condemned for Heretics by the Church, because they denied that Priests in the Church had authority to remit sins, 
* This savoureth of untruth: For Novatus denied not private, but open Penance.  and so denied the Sacrament of Penance.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
That duly receiving the Holy Sacraments ordained by Christ, we receive also the Remission of Sins, it is not any way denied. For the Substance of all Sacraments is the Word of God, 
2. Corin. 5.  which S. Paul calleth Verbum Reconciliationis, The Word of atonement. This Word is the Instrument of Remission of Sin: The Sacraments are the Seals affixed unto the same: The Priest is the mean. 
Augustin in johan. tracta. 〈◊〉.  S. Augustine saith, In Aqua Verbum mundat. Detrahe Verbum: quid est Aqua, nisi Aqua? In the Water it is the Word of God, that maketh clean. Take the Word away: and what is Water else, but Water? Hereof we shall have cause to say more hereafter.  
All that is here brought in touching Novatus, it is utterly from the purpose. For Novatus never denied, but a sinner might Confess his Sins, either secretly to God alone, or publicly, and openly before the whole Congregation. As for Auriculare Confession to the Priest, for aught that may appear, he never heard of it. But herein stood his whole error, that he thought, who so ever had committed any great notorious Sin after Baptism, notwithstanding any Submission, or Satisfaction, he was able to make, yet might he never be reconciled unto his Brethren, or be received again into the Church: not that he would hereby drive the Penitent sorrowful sinner to despair of God's mercy, but (as some Learned men have thought) only for example, and terror unto others. And therefore Beatus Rhenanus saith, 
B. Rhenanus in Argumento Libelli Tertull. de Poenitent.  In hac sententia Veterum permulti fuerunt: & in ijs etiam Augustinus.  
S. Augustine saith, Caut●, salub●●terque provisum est, ut locus illius Humilimae Poenitentiae semel in Ecclesia concedatur: ne medicina vilis minùs utilis esset aegrotis: I● hath been discreetly, 
Augustinus, Epistola. 54.  and wholesomely provided, that it should not be granted to any man, to do that most humble Open Penance, but only once in the Church, and never more afterward: least the Medicine, being made over common, should not be profitable to the Sick.  
Thus much difference therefore we see, there was between the Church, and Novatus. The Church granteth the Open Sinner one only time of Open Reconciliation, and never more: But Novatus granteth none at al. Therefore the whole matter of Novatus might have served M. harding to some other purpose: For Confession, whether it were Private, or Public, was no part of his error.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 2.  
And (we say) that the office of Losing consisteth in this point, that the Minister either by the preaching of the Gospel offereth the Merits of Christ, and full pardon to such as have lowly, and contrite hearts, and do unfeignedly repent themselves, pronouncing unto the same a sure, and undoubted forgiveness of their sins, and hope of everlasting Salvation: Or else that the same Minister, when any have offended their Brother's minds with some great offence, or notable, and open crime, whereby they have, as it were, vannished, and made themselves strangers from the Common Fellowship, and from the Body of Christ, then after perfit amendment of such persons, doth reconcile them, and bring them home again, and restore them to the Company, and Unity of the Faithful.  

M. harding.  
The sum of all these gay words abridged doth attribute loosing, or Absolution first to preaching, next to Assotlinge such as be Excomminicate. As touching the first, these Defenders confound the offices of preaching and of Absolution. The Preacher teacheth the hearers, and reporteth the words of Christ, as out of the mouth of Christ, saying, Thus saith Christ etc.: The Priest, which is the Minister of Absolution, according to the Authority given to him by Christ, in his own person assoileth the Penitent, saying, 
* Untruth. For Christ never gave the priest any such Commission.  I assoil thee in the name of the Father, etc. 
* Untruth. For S Jerome saith, Soluunt Sermone Dei, & testimoniis Scripturarum.  The Preacher in that he preacheth only doth not assoil sinners, neither giveth he the Merits of Christ, nor full pardon by pronouncing unto them the Gospel. 
Untruth, By M. hardings own Doctrine. Read the Answer.  For if that great benefit consist in pronouncing or denouncinge of the Gospel, then why might not every lay man, yea women, yea young boys, and girls assoil sinners? yea why might not every man assoil himself? And would ye Sirs appoint unto us such for judges constituted by Christ?  
For the words of Christ be so plain, as they cannot be so violently wrested. For Christ said not, To whom ye offer by preaching of the Gospel my Merits, and Pardon, or whose sins ye pronounce by the Gospel to be remitted, but quorumcunque remiseritis, who soevers sins ye remit, they are remitted to them. For as the son of man remitted sins to him that was sick of the palsy, 
johan. 20.  and to Mary Maudelen, that ye may know (saith he) that the son of man hath Power to remit sins, 
Li. 3. de Dignitate Sacerdotali.  etc.: Even so he hath transferred 
The same power, because they have the same word: and not otherwise.  the same power unto Priests, saith Chrysostom. Which Priests he hath sent, as the Father sent him. And if Absolution consist in pronouncing of the Gospel, which profiteth so much as it is believed, 
* Untruth. joined with vain Folly.  than the power of the Keys which Christ hath given to the Church, consisteth not so much in the Minister, as in the sinner that heareth and believeth, and so is forgiven by Luther's Opinion. And by this means the Priest hath no special power. But we say with the Church, that a Sacrament hath his efficacy of the institution of Christ in him, to whom it is adhibited. In this sense the Catholic Church of Christ hath ever taught, that God worketh our Salvation by Sacraments, and in this faith it hath always baptised infants, that their sins being remitted, they might be made the children of God 
Untruth. For the Church assoiled not mad men: but only pronounced them to be assoiled before, when they were sober.  Like wise by the Keys of the Church it hath assoiled persons bereft of the use of speech and reason, as the Learned and Ancient Holy Father Leo teacheth in his Epistle ad Theodorum Episcopum Foroiuliensem, and S. Augustine de adulterinis conlugijs, Lib. 1. Cap. 26. & ultimo.  
Finally if the office of loosing, that is Absolution, consisted in preaching the Gospel, and offering the Merits of Christ by pronouncing the words, in which the remission of our sins is expressed, as this Denfender teacheth: then had not the Catechumens of old time, neither now should they be in any danger, if they should die without Baptism, and the grace of reconciliation, that is, not being assoiled. For they lacked no preaching, as now they lack not where any such be. The contrary whereof the Church hath ever taught, and for witness of the same, 
Tract. in johan. 13.  besides other fathers, we have the plain Doctrine of S. Augustine: Who saith, that a Catechumen, how much so ever he profitethe, beareth still the burden of his iniquity so long, as he is not baptised.  
I deny not, but cases of just necessity be excepted in the one, and the other, having right and firm wills, and desire in each case: When not the contempt of Religion, but the point of necessity excludethe the Mystery of baptism, as S. Augustine saith. Then how dangerous, and pernicious is the Doctrine of these Defenders our New ministering Prelates, who more with sweet and Holy words, then with truth, teach Christian people, that the office of loosing consisteth in offering by preaching of the Gospel (as they call it) the Merits of Christ, and full pardon, and by pronouncing (I know not how) a sure and undoubted forgiveness of sins and hope of Everlasting Salvation to such, 
O dangerous Doctrine.  for sooth, as have lowly and contrite hearts, and do unfeignedly repent them? The contrition of heart, they seem to speak of, sufficethe not for loosing of sins, unless it be contrition form with charity, as the Divines teach. Which charity, seeketh and requireth the Sacrament of Penance, and the grace of reconciliation. which cannot be ministered, but by a priest. 
* Untruth. Read the answer.  Neither is it possible, the priest to judge truly, who are lowly and contrite of heart, and repent them unfeignedly, forasmutche as he cannot search the heart, unless the penitentes humble themselves unto him, and declare their repentance by simple and lowly confession of their sins. 
Lib. 50. Homiliarun, Homi. 49.  Which confession these New Gospelers have abandoned out of their Congregations. How much is more the Catholic and wholesome Doctrine of S. 
Manifest Untruth For S. Augustine speaketh these words of Open Confession before the people.  Augustine to be embraced and followed, which he uttereth in these words? Do ye penance, such as is done in the Church, that the Church may pray for you. Let noman say to himself, I do penance secretly, before God I do It: God, who forgiveth me, knoweth, that I do it in my heart. But what saith S. Augustine hereunto? Why then (saith he) it was said in vain, What things ye Lose in Earth, 
Mat. 18.  they shallbe Loosed in Heaven. Then without cause the Keys be geeven to the Church. We make voide the Gospel of God: we make frustrate the words of Christ.  
S. Augustine saith, do ye penance, not such as liketh yourselves, not such as New fangled self pleasing Preachers teach you, but such, as is done in the Church, which consisteth in Contrition of heart, confession of mouth, and satisfaction of work, that so ye may be assoiled, and perfitly reconciled.  
touching the second point, we do not attribute the loosing of such, as be excommunicate, to the offering of Christ's Merits and pronouncing of the Gospel unto them, as you do, but to the power of jurisdiction by Christ geeven to the Church.  
By the father's Excommunication in consideration of the necessity of it, is called neruus Ecclesiasticae disciplinae, the sinnowe of Churchely discipline: by the Canons, Mucro Episcopi, the sword of a Bishop: by S. Augustine, Episcopalis judicij damnatio, qua poena nulla in ecclesia maior est. The condemnation of a man by Bishoply judgement, than the which there is no greater punishment in the Church.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We commit the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven only unto the Priesteand, to none other: and to him only we say, What so ever thou bindeste in Earth, shallbe Bound in Heaven. Yet nevertheless hath not every Priest the use of these Keys. Peter Lombarde himself saith, Sanè dici potest, quòd alteram istarum Clavium, 
Senten. 4. Dist. 19  id est Scientiam discernendi, non habent omnes Sacerdotes: We may safely say, that all Priests have not the one of these two Keys: I mean the Knowledge to discern. If they have not the Keys, them can they neither Open, nor Shut.  
Neither doth it follow of Our Doctrine, that either Children, or Say men do, 
A Laiman remitteth sin.  or may forgéeve sins. And yet God's Word may be mighty, be the pronouncer of it never so simple. S. Augustine saith, Cùm Christus Petro dicerer, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 124.  Tibi dabo claves Regni Coelorum, universam significabat Ecclesiam: When Christ said unto Peter, Unto thee I will give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, he signified thereby the whole Church. And again, Quaecunque ligaveris super Terram, erunt ligara in Coelo. 
Augustin. De verb. Dom. Secund. matthae. Sermo. 16.  Coepisti habere Fratrem tuum, tanquam Publicanum: Ligas illum in Terra. Cùm autem correxeris, & concordaveris cum Fratre tuo, soluisti illum in terra. Cùm solueris in terra, solutus erit in Coelo: What so ever things thou shalt Bind in Earth, they shallbe Bound in Heaven. Thou (being a Lateman) hast begun to have thy Brother as a Publican: Thou Bindest him in Earth. But when thou hast corrected him and hast agreed with thy Brother, thou hast Loosed him in Earth. And when thou haste Loosed him in Earth, he shallbe Loosed in Heaven.  
Likewise Theophylacte saith, 
Theophylact. in Matthae. Cap. 18.  Si tu offensus habes eum, qui te affecit iniuria, sicut Publicanum, & Gentilem, erit ille & in Coelo talis: Si autem solueris eum, hoc est, Si illi condonaveris, erit illi & in Coelo condonatum. Non enim solùm, quae soluunt Sacerdotes, sunt soluta: sed quaecunque & nos iniutia affecti vel ligamus, vel soluimus, & ipsa erunt ligata, vel soluta: If thou being offended, have him, that hath done thee wrong, as a Publican, and as an Heathen, such shall he be also in Heaven. But if thou Lose him, that is to say, if thou pardon him, he shallbe pardonned also in Heaven. For not only the things, that Priests Lose, are Loosed: but also what so ever we, (being Laimonne) having taken wrong, do Bind, or Lose, the same things shall also be Bound, or Loosed.  
This Doctrine may not seem so strange to M. harding: unless he be a stranger amongst his own. For by the Order of his own Church of Rome, an Old wife, or a Young girl may Minister the Sacrament of Baptism. And, I trow, he will not say, They may Minister Baptism without Remission of Sins.  
In his Church of Rome the Power of the Keys is lapped up oftentimes in a bull of Lead, and sent abroad into the world by a Say Pardoner: and is thought nevertheless good, & sufficient unto the Receiver for Remission of Sins. notwithstanding the messenger be no Priest.  
some of the late Doctors of his said Church have taught us, 
De Poeniten. di● 1. Quem poenitet.  that a man may make his Confession by a bill of his hand: and receive Absolution by a Trusheman, or by a Broker. Peter Lombarde the grand Master of their whole School saith, 
Scotus, 4 Senten. Dis. 17. Arti. 3. Senten. 4. Dis. 17. Nunc priusquam.  Si tamen defuerit Sacerdos, Proximo, vel Socio est facienda Confessio: If thou want a Priest, thou must make thy Confession unto thy neighbour, or unto thy fellow. And Beda saith, as he is alleged by the said Peter Lombarde, Coaequalibus quotidiana, & levia: graviora verò Sacerdoti pandamus: Let us open our small, and daily sins unto our fellows: and the greater unto the Priest.  
And to be short, 
Senten. 4. Eadem Dist.  upon the Decretales it is noted thus, In necessitate Laicus potest, & Audire Confessiones, & Absoluere: In case of necessity a Lay man may both hear Confessions, and Absolve.  
This is the Order, 
Extra. De offi. judicis ordinar. Pastoralis. In Glossa.  and Doctrine of M. hardings own Church. His own Doctors tell him, that Say men, and Wéemennes may Absolve the Penitent, and forgive Sins. Therefore he hath the less cause to mislike it.  
M. harding saith further, Christ saith not, To whom ye offer by preaching of the Gospel my Merits and Pardonne: or, whose sins ye pronounce by the Gospel to be remitted: but, Quorumcunque remiseritis, whose so ever sins ye remit, they are remitted. If M. harding will Conclude of this Negative, Ergo, Sins be not forgiven by the preaching of the Gospel, 
Sins Remitted by hearing the word of God.  I trow, it will be but a Simple Argument. For Chrysostom saith, Clavicularij sunt Sacerdotes, quibus creditum est Verbum Docendi, & Interpretandi Scriptutas: The Keiebearers be the Priests, to whom is committed the Word of teaching and expounding the Scriptures. And S. Jerome saith, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. in Opere Imperfect. ca 23.  Quaecunque Solueritis super Terram, erunt Soluta & in Coelo. Soluunt autem eos Apostoli Sermone Dei, & testimonijs Scripturarum, & exhortatione virtutum: What so ever things ye Lose upon Earth, they shallbe Loosed also in Heaven. But the Apostles Lose them by the Word of God, and by the Testimonies of the Scriptures, and by exhortation unto virtue. 
Hierony. in isaiah. Li. 6. Ca 14. Augustin. in johan. tracta. 80.   
Likewise S. Augustine saith, jam vos Mundi estis propter verbum, quod jocutus sum vobis. Quare non ait, Mundi estis propter Baptismum, quo loti estis? Nisi quia & in Aqua Verbum Mundat: Now are you clean because of the Word, that I have spoken to you. Why saith he not, you are clean because of the Baptism, wherewith ye are washed? saving that even in the Water, it is the Word, that maketh Clean. Likewise S. Ambrose, 
Ambrosi. De Cain, & Abel. Cap. 4. Roman. 1. 2. Corin. 5.  Remittuntur peccata per Verbum Dei, cuius levites est Interpres: Sins be forgiven by the Word of God, the Expounder whereof is the Levite, or Priest.  
All the Power is in the Word of God, which S. Paul calleth the Power of God unto Salvation: and, Verbum Reconciliationis: The Word, whereby we be Reconciled unto God.  
And for this cause Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. De Sacerdot. Li. 3.  as it is alleged by M. harding, that the Priest hath the same Power that Christ had: For that he Preacheth the same Word of God, that Christ Preached. And in this sense Christ saith unto his Disciples, 
johan. 6.  As my Living Father sent me, even so, (and with like Commission) do I send you.  
Otherwise the Power of Christ far surmounteth, and passeth all Creatures, not only in Earth, 
Matthae. 11.  but also in Heaven. Christ himself thereof saith thus: All things are delivered to me of my Father, And the Prophet isaiah saith, Ponam Clavem Domus david super humerum eius. Aperiet, & nemo Claudet: Claudet, & nemo Aperiet: 
isaiah. Cap. 22.  I will set the Key of the House of David upon his shoulder. He shall Open, and noman shall Shut: He shall Shut, and noman shall Open.  
Of this Doctrine, saith M. harding, followeth a great inconvenience. For then, saith he, the Power of the Keys consisteth not so much in the Minister, as in the Sinner, that heareth, and believeth. This inconvenience is nothing so great, as it is pretended. The error hereof standeth in the Equivocation, or doubtful taking of one Word. For one thing may be in an other sundry ways. As Remission of Sins may be in the Priest, as in the Messenger: In the Word of God, as in the Instrument: In the Penitent party, as in the Receiver. The offering hereof is in the Minister: but the effect, and force is in the Sinner. Therefore S. Luke saith, God Opened the Heart of the Silck woman, that she should give Ear unto the words, 
Act. 16. Mark. 16. 4. Sent. Dist. 18. Sed quaritur. Clemens, in Paraenetico. Augustin. in johan. tracta. 39  that were spoken by S. Paul. And Christ saith, Who so ever shall Believe, and be baptized, shallbe saved: but he, that believeth not, shallbe damned. Likewise Peter Lombarde himself saith, Ex his apertè ostenditur, quoed Deus ipse Poenitentem soluit, quando intus illuminat inspirando veram Cordis Contritionem: Hereby it plainly appeareth, that God himself Loseth the Penitent, when by giving him in ward light, he inspireth into him the true Contrition of the Heart. And therefore Clemens Alexandrinus saith, Fides nostra est Clavis Regni Coelorum: Our Faith is the Key of the Kingdom of Heaven. And S. Augustine likewise saith, Cor Clausum habent, quia Clavem Fidei non habent: They have their hearts shut, because they lack the Key of Faith. 
Augustin. in Psalm. 101.  Again he saith, Suscitari mortuus, nisi int●is clamante Domino, non potest: The dead man cannot be raised again, unless the Lord Cry within him. 
Absolution of Mad men.   
And, to come near to the purpose, Gratian himself saith, Voluntas Sacerdotis nec prodesse, 
1. quaes. 1. Dictum est.  nec obesse potest: sed meritum benedictionem poscentis. The will of the Priest can neither further, nor hinder: but the Merit of him, that desireth Absolution.  
touching the Objection of Frantic persons, and maddemennes, in what sort, and how far Absolution taketh place in them, for as much, as it is an extraordinary case, 
Extra. De Baptismo, & etus Effectu. Maiores ecclesiae. §. Item quaeritur.  I think it neither needful, nor easy to define. In deed a question is moved by Pope Innocentius the third, whether, and in what sort a man, either in his madness, or in his sleep may be baptized. And S. Augustine seemeth to witness, that Children sommetime were baptized in their Mother's Womb. Likewise he writeth of a friend of his own, Cùm iaceret sine sensu in dolore laetali, 
Augustin. Contra julian. Li. 6. Cap. 5.  & desperaretur, Baptizatus est nesciens: Whereas he lay in a Trance, without sense, in deadly pain, and was despaired of, he was baptized, and knew not of it.  
Bonaventura addeth some force unto the matter, 
Augustin. Confession. Li. 3. Cap. 4.  and demandeth this question, An aliquis possit absolui invitus: Whether a man may be Absolved against his will, or no.  
But concerning the Absolution of mad men in the time of their frenzy: 
Bonaventurae in 4. Senten. Distin. 18. quaest. 6.  It seemeth, this was both the meaning of Leo, and the Godly discretion of the Church at that time, that if a man standing Excommunicate had happened to be bereft of his senses, and being in that case, had been likely to depart this life, upon proof of his former repentance, he should be restored, that he might depart in peace, as a Member of the Church of God. The practice hereof we find in the Council of Carthage by these words: Simo is, 
Concil. Carthaeginen. 4. Cap. 76.  qui Poenitentiam in infirmitate petit, in Phrenesim versus fuerit, dent testimonium, qui eum audiverunt, & accipiat Poenitentiam: If he, that desired reconciliation by Penance in his sickness, afterward fall Mad, let them, that heard him, bear witness with him: and so let him receive Penance.  
This was only a public Testimony unto the Church, that the party Excommunicate was repentant before, when his mind was quiet. And what thing else M. harding can gather hereof, I cannot tell. Certainly in this Order, and manner they restored, not only Mad men, but also dead men unto the Church. 
24. quae. 2. De Communione. In Glossa.  For so it is noted upon the Decrees: Ex quo, cùm per eum non stabat, el communicare debemus. Et ita est absoluendus post mortem: Wherefore seeing there was no lack in his part, we ought to Communicate with him. And so he must be Absolved after his death.  
The words, that S. Augustine often useth unto Beginners, or Entrers of the Faith, called Catechumeni, are uttered rather for terror of others, then for rigour of Truth, 
Augustin. De Peccator. Meritis, & Remiss. Li. 2. Cap. 26. Augustin. ad Catechumen. Li. 2. Cap. 1.  as shall appear. For otherwheres he writeth thus: Catechumeni secundum quendam modum per Signum Christi sanctificantur: The Catechumeni, or Beginners, after their sort, are sanctified by the Sign of Christ. Again he saith to them, Non dum renati estis: sed per Crucis Signum in utero Sanctae Matris Ecclesiae iam concepti estis: Ye are not yet borne a new, but by the Sign of the Cross, ye are already conceived in the Womb of the Holy Church your Mother.  
Therefore having thus once entered into the Faith of Christ, although they happened afterward to depart this life without Baptism, yet the Church oftentimes thought it good, 
Ambrosi. De Obitu Valentiniani.  to judge well of them. S. Ambrose doubted not, but the Emperor Valentinian departed hence in God's favour: And yet was the same Emperor but a Beginner, and a Novice in the Faith, and departed hence without Baptism.  
M. harding saith further, 
The judge of sin.  unless the Penitent make particular rehearsal of all his sins, the Priest, or Minister can be no judge. Where unto I add also further, 
Augustin. Confession. Li. 10. Cap. 3.  notwithstanding any rehearsal that may be made, yet can the Priest never be, but a doubtful judge. S. Augustine saith, Quid ergo mihi est cum Hominibus, ut audiant Confessiones meas, quasi sanaturi sint Omnes Languores meos? unde sciunt, cùm à meipso de meipso audiunt, an verum dicam? Quandoquidem nemo scit Hominum, quid agatur in Homine, nisi Spiritus Hominis, qui est in Homine. What have I to do with men, that they should hear my Confessions, as if they wear babble to beale all my griefs? When they hear me speak of me self, how can they tell, whether I do say the truth, or no? For noman knoweth, what is done in Man, but the spirit of Man, that is in Man.  
How be it, hereof have grown many unnecessary, and curious questions, what Years, 
Beat. Rhenanus in Tertull. De Poenitentia: Vt Sacerdotes Poenitentialem Librum bene calleant.  what Months, what Days, what Hours, what Manner, what Order of Penance should serve for ever several sin. In Resolution of which doubts stood the judgement of the Priest. And therefore Carolus Magnus in in his Laws straightly commandeth, that the Priests should be skilful in the Book of Penance.  
But, as touching the judge of Sins, S. Chrysostom saith, Ante Deum confitere peccata tua. Apud Verum judicem cum Oratione delicta rua pronuntia: Confess they sins before God. 
Chrysost. ad Hebrae. Homil. 31. Chrysost. in Sermo. De Confession & Poenitentia.  Before the True judge with prayer pronounce thine offences. And again, Cogitation fiat delictorum exquisitio: Sine Teste sit hoc judicium: Solus te Deus confitentem videat: Let the examination of thy sins be wrought in thy Heart: Let this judgement be Without Witness: Let God Only hear thee, when thou makest thy Confession. And again he saith, Medicinae locus hîc est, non judicij: non poenas, sed peccatorum Remissionem tribuens. Deo Soli dic peccatum tuum: 
Chrysost. Homil. 9 De Poenitentia.  here is place of Medicine, and not of judgement: giving not punishment, but Remission of Sins. Open thy sin to God Alone.  
And therefore in M. hardings own Canons it is noted thus, Confessio fit ad ostensionem Poenitentiae: 
De Poeniten. dis. 1. Omnes qui.  non ad impetrationem veniae: Confession is made (unto the Priest) not thereby to obtain forgiveness, but to declare our repentance. And again, Confessio Sacerdoti offertur in Signum veniae acceprae: non Causam Remissionis accipiendae: Confession is made unto the Priest in token of remission already obtained: 
In eod. Capite.  and not as a cause, whereby to procure Remission.  
And yet is the Priest a judge, all this notwithstanding: and pronounceth sentence as a judge, of Doctrine, of Open Sin, of the Offence of the Church, and of the Humility, and Heaviness of the Penitent: and as a judge, together with the Elders of the Congregation, hath Authority, both to Condemn, and to Absolve. 
4 Senten. dist. 18. Non autem.  Peter Lombarde himself saith, Etsi aliquis apud Deum sit solutus, non tamen in fancy Ecclesiae solutus habetur, nisi per indicium Sacerdotis: All be it a man be Absolved before God, yet is be not accounted Absolved in the face of the Church, but by the judgement of the Priest.  
Likewise saith S. Augustine, 
Augustin. De Ecclesiasti. dogmatib. li. 1. ca 53.  Horror pritis publica Poenitentia satisfacere, & Sacerdotis judicio reconciliatum Communioni sociari: I exhort you first to make Satisfaction (unto the Church) by open penance: and so to be restored to the Communion by the discretion of the Priest.  
The order hereof, 
Cyprian. Li. 3. Epist. 15.  as it is set forth by S. Cyprian, was this: first the Sinner by many outward gestures, and tokens showed himself to be penitent, and sorrowful for his sin: After that he made humble Confession thereof before the whole Congregation, 
Origen. in Psal. 37.  and desired his brethren to pray for him: Lastly the Bishop and the clergy laid their hands over him, and so reconciled him. So saith Origen, Qui lapsus est, procedit in medium, & Exomologesin facit: He that hath offended, cometh forth into the mids (of the People) and maketh his Confession. Sozomenus likewise describing the same Order saith thus, 
Open Confession.  Rei ad terram sese pronos abijciunt cum planctu, & lamentatione. Episcopus ex adverso occurrit cum Lachrymis, 
Sozomen. Li. 7. Cap. 16.  & ipse ad Pavimentum lamentando provoluitur: & universa Ecclesiae multitudo Lachrymis suffunditur: They, that have offended fall down flat with weeping, and lamentation to the ground. The Bishop cometh to him with tears, and himself likewise falleth down: and the whole multitude of the Church is powered over and over with tears.  
I use the more words herein, for that the whole matter is long sithence grown utterly out of use. notwithstanding this is the Confession, and Penance, that S. Augustine speaketh of. Of Open Confession, M. harding, he saith, The Keys were not geeven to the Church in vain. Of Open Confession he saith, What so ever ye Lose in Earth, shallbe Loosed in Heaven. Of Open Confession he speaketh all these words: and not of any Auriculare, or Private dealing. If M. harding happen to doubt hereof, let him look better upon his Books. There shall he find, even in the very same place, he hath alleged, these words partly going before, 
Augustin in Li. 50. Homiliarum, Homil 49.  partly following: Agite Poenitentiam, qualis agitur in Ecclesia, ut oret pro vobis Ecclesia: job dicit, Si erubui in conspectu populi confiteri peccata mea: Propterea Deus voluit, ut Theodosius ageret Poenitentiam publicam in conspectu populi: Nolite permittere Viros vestros fornicari: Interpellate contra eos Ecclesiam: Do Penance, such as is done in the Church, that the Church may pray for you: job saith, I was not ashamed in the sight of all the people to confess my sins: Therefore God would, that Theodosius (being the Emperor of the world) should do Open Penance even in the presence of all the people. Ye wives, suffer not your Husbands to live in fornication: come before the Congregation, and cry against them.  
This is the Confession, that S. Augustine speaketh of: not Secret, or Private, or in the Ear: but Public, and Open, and in the Sight, and Hearing of all the people. 
Ambros. De Poenitentia, Li. 2. Ca 10.  In like manner saith S. Ambrose, Multos necesse est ut ambias, & obsecres, ut dignentur interuenire. Fleat pro te Mater Ecclesia, & culpam tuam Lachymis lavet: Thou must needs humble thee self, and desire many to entreat for thee. Let the Church thy Mother weep for thee: and let her wash thy offence with her tears.  
This therefore, M. harding, was no plain dealing, with such sleight to turn Public into Private: and the Open audience of the whole people, into one only man's secret ear: and so much to abuse the simplicity of your Reader. Certainly these words of S. Augustine, Open Penance: Confess Openly: In the sight of all the people: That the whole Church may pray: these words, I say, will not easily serve to prove your purpose, for Private Confession.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 3.  
We say also, that the Minister doth execute the Authority of Binding and Shutting, as often as he shutteth up the Gate of the Kingdom of Heaven against unbelieving, and stubborn persons, denouncing unto them God's vengeance, and Everlasting punishment: Or else when the doth quite shut them out from the bosom of the Church, by open Excommunication. Out of doubt, what sentence so ever the Minister of God shall give in this sort, God himself doth so well allow it, that what so ever here in Earth by their means is Loosed and Bound, God himself will Lose, and Bind, and confirm the sane in Heaven.  

M. harding.  

* Untruth. For we coufounde them not.  Hear again you confound the Power of binding and the office of preaching, as you did before speaking of the power of loosing. Whereto we say, as we said before of that other, that binding and shutting consisteth not in denouncinge of God's engeaunce, but in the exercise of the Key of jurisdiction committed to the Church. The Ministers whereof Bind sinners, whom for just cause they Lose not, but know that they are not to be loosed. And to that Key pertaineth excommunication, and by the same it is exercised.  
What so ever by them is thus Loosed or Bound in Earth, God himself alloweth for loosed and bound in Heaven. 
* Untruths, five together, as may further appear by the answer.  Such Priests because ye 1. have not in your New Church, at least after this wise 2. using Priestly Authority. 3. and none will suffer to be made, 4. nor such Authority to be exercised: ye 5. defraud the faithful people of the great benefit of the Sacrament of penance, keeping them fast bound to their sins after baptism committed. And so ye cause their Everlasting Damnation, for whom Christ hath shed his Blood, the Price of their Redemption.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We confound not these Keys, M. harding, but speak plainly, and distinctly of either other. We say, that the Power, as well of loosing, as also of binding standeth in God's Word: and the exercise, or execution of the same standeth either in Preaching, or else in Sentence of Correction, and Ecclesiastical Discipline.  
Of the later hereof, there is no question: of the former, M. Harding pronounceth precisely, although, as it appeareth, not moste advisedly: binding, saith he, and Shuttinge standeth not in denouncinge of God's Vengeance. And hereof he certainly assureth us, as of a most undoubted Verity. How be it, in so saying, he seemeth not to consider the Power, and Weight of the Word of God.  
Christ himself saith, 
john. 12.  If any man shall hear my Words, and shall not Bèleèue, I condemn him not. He that refusethe me, and receiveth not my Words, hath one, that condemneth him. The Word, that I have spoken, is it, that shall judge him at the last day. Like wise saith S. Paul, 
2 Corin. 2.  We are the good savour of Christ in them, that be saved, and in them, that perish. Unto them that perish, we are the savour of Death unto Death: In them that be saved, 
2 Corin. 4.  we be the savour of Life unto Life. And again, If the Gospel be hidden, it is hidden from them, that perish. So saith God unto the Prophet Ezechiel, If thou give warning to the wicked, 
Ezechiel. 3.  and he will not be turned from his wickedness, he shall perish in the same. Yet haste thou discharged thine own soul.  
To be short, 
Augustin. epist 49 ad Deogratias.  The whole Scriptures are full hereof. And therefore S. Augustine saith, Praedicatur evangelium, quibusdam ad praemium, quibusdam ad judicium: The Gospel is Preached, to some unto reward, to some unto judgement.  
For the rest, M. harding saith, Such Priests because ye have not in your New Church, at least after this wise using Priestly Authority, and none will suffer to be made, and such Authority to be exercised, ye defraud the faithful people of the great benefit of the Sacrament of Penance, keeping them fast bound to their sins after Baptism committed: And so ye cause their everlasting Damnation, for whom Christ hath shed his Blood, the Price of their Redemption.  
These great words are not very well seasoned: They are big in sound, and small in weight: they are full of terror, and void of wit. For the Church of England hath Authority this day by God's Word to Bind, and Lose, as much as ever Christ gave any to his Apostles: And by the same Authority is able to Bind, not only M. harding, and his Fellows, as Peter bond Simon Magus, 
Sin forgiven without Confession.  or as Paul bound Elymas the False Prophet: but also the Pope himself, if he be an Open Offender: and, as S. Paul saith, to deliver him over unto Satan: And undoubtedly being so Bound in Earth, he shall also stand Bound in Heaven.  
Our People remain not Bound, nor perish in their sins, as these men so uncharitably, and fond have imagined. They be so certain of the Remission of their sins in the Blood of Christ, as if Christ himself were present, and spoke it to them. 
1. johan. 1. Actor. 4.  They are taught, and know that The Blood of Christ, the Son of God hath made us clean from all our sins: and, that there is no name under Heaven, whereby we shallbe saved, but only the name of jesus Christ.  
As for Private Confession, Abuses, and Errors set apart, as it is said before, we condemn it not, but leave it at liberty. And therein we may seem to follow the advise of Charles the Emperor in his late Interim: 
Interim Caroli 5. anno. 1548.  For thus he writeth, Confessio, & Peccatorum Enumeratio, ut non nimis laxanda est, ita vicissim non nimis est astringenda.  
touching the Priests of your making, M. harding, of whom ye seem to make so great account, 
4. Senten. dist. 19 Post.  your own Peter Lombard saith of them, as it is said before, Sané dici potest, quòd alteram Clavem, id est, Scientiam discernendi multi Sacerdotes non habent. 
Bonavent. 4. Senten. dist. 18. quae. 1. e.  And in like manner saith your own Bonaventura, Omnes ferè ita sunt Simplices, & Idiotae post susceptionem Sacerdotij, ficut antè: All Priests for the most part are as Simple, and Unlearned after the receiving of Orders, as they were before.  
But be it granted, that your Priest be fully furnished with all his Keys. Yet is it not he, 
De Poeniten. dist. 1. Quis aliquando.  that by any his Authority forgiveth sins. Your own Gratian saith, Euidentissime datur intelligi, quòd sine Confession Oris Peccata possunt deleri: It is evidently geeven us to understand, that without Confession of mouth, Sins may be forgiven. 
De Poenit. dist. 1. Conuertimin●.  And again, o'er tacente, veniam consequi possumus: Though we say nothing, yet we may have pardon. Again, Luce clariùs constat, Cordis Contritione, non Oris Confession, Peccata dimitti: It is apparent, and more clear than the light, that Sins be forgiven by Contrition of the Heart, and not by Confession of the mouth. And again, Dominus ostendit, quòd non Sacerdotali judicio, sed largitate Divina Peccator mundatur: Our Lord hath taught us, that the sinner is made clean, not by the judgement of the Priest, but by the Mercy of God.  
Thus, M. harding, it is plain by the judgement of your own Doctors, that, were your Auriculare Confession quite abolished, yet might the People notwithstanding have full Remission of their Sins. But of you it may he verified, that Christ said unto the Phariseis: 
Luk. 11.  Ye have taken away the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: And neither do ye enter yourselves, nor will your suffer others, that would enter. 
Veselus', de Subditis, & Superiorib.  Of your Keys Veselus said long sithence, claves Papae, & Praelatorum non aperiunt Regnum Dei, sed claudunt potiùs: The Popes, and the Prelate's Keys do not Open the Kingdom of God, but rather Shut it.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 1.  
And touching the Keys, wherewith they may either Shut or Open the Kingdom of Heaven, we with Chrysostom say, They be the Knowledge of the Scriptures: with Tertullian we say, They be the Interpretation of the Law: and with Eusebius we call them the Word of God.  

M. harding.  
The let, 
The word is the Key.  where by the whole Nature of man is shut out of Heaven by the sin of our first Parent, is taken a wait by the Passion of Christ. But because before that benefit be received. Heaven yet remaineth shut both for sin Original contracted, and sin actual committed: we have need of the Sacraments, and Keys of the Church.  
The Holy Fathers for good considerations grounded upon Scripture, have divided the Keys into the Key of Order, and the Key of jurisdiction: And either of them into the Key of Knowledge, which they call also the Key of Discretion, and into the Key of Power.  
To these Defenders we say, that they confound the Keys, and seem not to know, what the Keys are. Verily these be not only the knowledge of the Scriptures, nor the Interpretation of the law, nor the Word of God, although these also do open or shoot the Kingdom of Heaven in their kind, as Chrysostom, Tertullian, and Eusebius may well say: and not only these, but also Miracles, and Plagues, and all other things, which prepare the will, or understanding of man, whereby he may receive the benefit of those most principal Keys, that now we speak of.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Gentle Reader, for the better understanding hereof, it may please thee to consider, that the Word of God, according to the sundry effects, and properties thereof, hath sundry names. For example. For that it increaseth, and multiplieth, it is called Seed: For that it cutteth the Heart, and divideth the Flesh from the Spirit, it is called a Sword: For that it taketh, and encloseth us, and bringeth us together, it is called a Net: For that it washeth us clean, it is called Water: For that it Inflameth us, it is called Fire: For that it Feedeth us, it is called Bread. And even so, for that it openeth, and giveth us an entry into the House, it is called the Key. This House is the Kingdom of Heaven: Christ is the Door: the Word of GOD is the Key.  
For thus saying, M. harding telleth us, We confound matters, and seem not to know, what we say. notwithstanding herein we imagine nothing of our own, but only report the very Words, and Sentences of the Ancient Learned Catholic Fathers.  
Tertullian saith, 
Tertull. contra Marc●on. Li. 4.  Quam Clavem habebant Legis Doctores, nisi Interpretationem Legis? What Key had the Doctors of the Law, saving the Exposition of the Law? S. Jerome saith, Duces Ecclesiae habent claves Scientiae, ut aperiant Scripturas creditis sibi Populis. 
Hieromy. in Esaiam. Li. 6. ca 24.  unde praecipitur, ut Magistri aperiant, & Discipuli ingrediantur: The Captains of the Church have the Keys of Knowledge, to open the Scriptures unto the People to them committed. Therefore Commandment is given, that the Masters should open, 
Ambros. De Cain. & Abel. Li. 2.  and the Scholars should enter. S. Ambrose saith, Remittuntur peccata per Dei Verbum, cuius levites est Interpres: Sins be forgiven by the Word of God, the Expounder whereof is the Priest.  
Thus these, and other like Ancient Fathers have opened the meaning of these Keys. 
Chrysost in Matthae. Homil. 44.  And yet were they never therefore condemned of ignorance, as men, that wist not, what they said. Certainly Chrysostom saith, Clavis est Scientia Scripturarum, per quam aperitur janua Veritatis: The Key is the knowledge of the Scriptures, whereby is opened the gate of the Truth. And S. Augustine saith, Clavis est dicenda, 
Augusti. De Sanctis, Homil. 27.  qua ad Fidem pectorum dura reserantur: That aught to be called the Key, where with the hardness of men's hearts is opened unto Faith.  
Here hath M. harding well multiplied, and increased his Keys, and hath brought us forth a whole bunch of them altogether: 
Multiplication of Keys.  The Keys of Orders: The Keys of jurisdiction: The Keys of Discretion: The Keys of Power: The keys most Principal, and the Keys not so principal. And thus hath he keys of Order without jurisdiction, and keys of jurisdiction without Order: keys of Discretion without Power, & keys of Power without Discretion. And all these pretty shifts of keys hath he devised, to avoid Confusion: and, to make up his tale, as if the Pope's Cross Keys were not sufficient, Plagues, and Miracles, and, I know not what thing else, are brought forth unto us in the likeness of Keys. And this distinction, and limitation of Keys, saith he, hath upon good considerations been devised by the Holy Fathers. And yet of all these Holy Fathers, for modesty's sake, he nameth none.  
What answer were it best to make to such Vanities? In deed, when the right Key of Knowledge was lost, and gone, it was time to devise some other pretty Pikelockes to work the feat. Bonaventura hereof writeth thus, as it is partly alleged before: 
bonaven 4. Sentent. Dist. 18. Quae. 1. E.  Omnes ferè Sacerdotes ita sunt simplices, & idiotae post susceptionem Sacerdotij, sicut anté. Dicendum ergo, quòd Scientia non est Clavis Principalis, nec per se, sed prout juncta est Authoritati Ligandi, vel soluendi. Et haec Clavis non est de Esse Ordinis, sed de bene esse: All Priests, for the most part, are as simple, and as Jude after the receiving of Priesthood, as they were before. Therefore we must say, that Knowledge is not the Principal Key, not any Key at all of itself: but as it is joined with the Authority of binding, or loosing. And this Key (of Knowledge) is not of the Substance of the Order of Priesthood, but of the better being of the same. And therefore, to increase M. hardings number of Keys, he saith, Quidam habent Scientiam Clavium: 
Eodem loco.  quidam Claviculam: quidam nullam: some have the Knowledge of the Keys: some a pretty little Key: some no Key at al. In this case it were good for M. harding to resolve his Reader, when the Priest hath nothing else but a Pretty little Key, or no Key at all, what Authority he hath, either to Open, or to Shut.  
M. harding replieth farther, We have Remission of Sins in the Ministration of the Sacraments: Therefore we have it not only by the hearing of the Word of God. This Objection touched, and partly answered a little before. S. Augustine calleth the Sacraments, 
Augustin. contra Faustum, Li. 19 Cap. 16.  Verba Visibilia: Words Visible: for that in them, as in lively Images, the Death of Christ is sensibly set before our eyes. For the word of God is the Substance, and Life of all Sacraments: and without the same, Sacraments, what so ever, are no Sacraments. And therefore S. Augustine saith. as it is alleged before, 
August. in johan. Tracta. 80.  Quare non ait, vos mundi estis propter Baptismum, quo lot● estis: Sed ait, propter Verbum, quod locutus sum vobis? Nisi quia & in Aqua Verbum mundat. Detralie Verbum: & quid est Aqua, nisi Aqua? Why saith not Christ, you are clean because of the Baptism, wherewith ye are washed: But, Because of the Word, that I have spoken to you? saving for that, it is the Word, that cleanseth in the Water. Take the Word away: and what is Water else, but Water?    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 2.  
Moreover that Christ's Disciples did receive this Authority, not that they should hear the Private Confessions of the people, & listen to their whishperinges, as the common massing Priests do everywhere now adays, and do it so, as though in that one point lay all the Virtue, and use of the Keys: but to the end, they should Go, they should Teach, they should Publish abroad the Gospel, and be unto the believing a sweet Savour of Life unto Life: and unto the Vnbelevinge, and Vnfaitheful a Savour of Death unto Death: and that the minds of Godly persons being brought low by the remorse of their former Life and errors, after they once begun to look up unto the Light of the Gospel, & believe in Christ, might be opened with the Word of God, even as a door is opened with a Key. Contrary wise, that the Wicked, and wilful, and such as would not believe, nor return into the right way, should be left still as fast locked, 
2. Timoth. 3.  & shut up, &, as S. Paul saith, wax worse, and worse. This take we to be the meaning of the Keys: and that after this sort men's Consciences be either opened, or shut.  

M. harding.  
Here ye Harp much upon one string, which so jarreth in the ears of the Hearers, as your confuse Harmony can like noman, unless he be a Minstrel of your own Sect. The Authority and power of the Keys consisteth not altogether, nor Principally in preaching, or pronouncing of the Gospel, as already we have proved. What may we judge of you? proceedeth this of Malice, or of Ignorance, that thus ye confound the Keys, the Powers, and the ministries?  
preaching is one thing, to govern the Church is an other, to remit and retain sins is an other, to distribute the Sacraments is an other. Doth not S. Paul in clear words speak Severally, and distinctly of ministries, 
1. Corin. 1.  where he saith, that he was not sent of Christ to baptize, but to Preach the Gospel? This Doctrine of yours, whereby ye confound the Keys, Powers, and ministries, doth not only obscure the Scriptures, and bring the people to great errors: but also under pretence of a love toward preaching of the Gospel, leadeth them into contempt of the Sacraments, and specially of the Sacrament of Penance, without which, if after Baptism we have sinned, (not being letted by case of necessity, wherein Will, Desire, and Vow is accepted) 
* Untruth, as by the Answer may further appear.  we can not attain to Salvation. As you follow Caluine your Master in this and sundry other false, and perilous Doctrines, so it is to be feared, if your wicked temerity be suffered to proceed, that at length having brought all Religion to bare preaching, ye will abandon all the Sacraments of the Church, as things not necessary. For so that wicked Master of yours teacheth: 
calvin's wicked doctrine against the Sacraments.  That, where Christ's death may be remembered otherwise, there 
* A great untruth, joined with a slander. Read the Answer.  all the Sacraments be Superfluous. And that I seem not to slander him. I remit you to his Commentaries upon the first Epistle of S. Paul to the Corinthians, where expounding these wooordes, Do this in my remembrance, he saith thus: The Supper is a token of remembrance ordained to lift up, or help our infirmity: for if otherwise we were mindful enough of Christ's death, this help (he meaneth the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar) were superfluous, which is common to all the Sacraments, for they be helps of our infirmitte. Lo, by calvin's Doctrine, if we remember the death of Christ, both the eucharist, and all other Holy Sacraments be void, and Superfluous. And then, because no other thing bringeth to our remembrance the Death of Christ, more than preaching, to what purpose serve all the Sacraments?  
Thus these Defenders with their Master Caluine have found a shorter way to Heaven, than was known before.  
In an other place he seemeth to derogate much of the necessity of Baptism of Christian men's Children. 
Contra Interim.  Where he saith, that by reason of Gods promise the issue which cometh of faithful parents, 
* These be not M. calvin's words, but S. Paul's: filii vestri Sancti sunt, 1. Corin. 7.  is borne Holy, and is a Holy Progeny, and that the children of such, being yet enclosed in the womb, before they draw breath of life, be nevertheless chosen into the covenant of life everlasting. This doctrine, when it shall take place, as by you Defenders it is set in a good furtherance, what shall we look for, but that the necessary Sacrament of Baptism (without which who is to be counted a Christian man?) and the most Blessed, and comfortable Sacrament of the Altar, and the Wholesome Sacrament of Penance, 
Quid ● Coelum ruat?  and Absolution, and the rest of the Sacraments, shall be no more esteemed and used, then now ye esteem, and use the Mass, Holy Bread, and Holy Water? This being once brought to pass, shall not the people easily be induced either to receive Mahomates Religion, or some other, as far from God, as that is: or to allow the pleasant trade of life of the 
* Otherwise called the Romans.  Epicureans, the most part being already thereto inclined, and no small number well entread?  
But to return again to the Keys, which seem to you to have no force ne use but in preaching: First, as touching the scornful scoffer uttered by you, Sir Defender, in Latin, and by your interpreter in English, against Private Confessions, and against the Ministers of the Church appointed by God for grace of reconciliation to be imparted to penitentes: your light mocking spirit delighteth yourselves not so much, as it pitieth us to see you both so fast bound in Satan's fetters. next concerning Confession 
* Untruth. For it is not required of necessity, as shall appear.  necessarily required to the use, and power of the Keys, which you speak of at your pleasure, thus we say according to the Scriptures: Among sundry effects, for which Christ gave the Keys to the Apostles, and their Successors, this is one, that by Power of them they should remit, 
Mat. 16. & 18.  and retain Sins, as himself said, Whose sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whose sins ye retain, they are retained, 
Untruths, two together. See the Answer.  But sins can not duly be remitted or retained, unless they be known to him, 
johan. 20.  that hath authority thereto: and knowledge of sins (specially such as are privy) can not be had of man, who can not see into the heart of man, ● but by Confession of the sinner: Wherefore consequently it followeth, that they received this authority to hear the Confession of Christian people desirous to be assolted, and reconciled.  
Wherefore the Confession, yea of Secret sins, is necessary to Salvation by 
* Untruth. For M. hardings own Doctors say, It was ordained by Tradition, and not by Christ.  th'institution of Christ. For in that he instituted the end, he instituted also the means, which should be necessary to the obteininge of the end: unless we would make Christ our lawmaker to have failed his Church in things necessary. That sins can not either be remitted, or retained, except the Priest know them, 
Mat. 16. Comment. in Mat. 16.  we are bold so to say with the Fathers, and specially with S. Jerome, who so 
* Untruth, In mistaking, and abbridginge S. Hieromes words.  understood the words of Christ: where he promised the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter. Sacerdos pro officio suo cùm peccatorum audierit Varietates, scit qui ligandus, sit qui Soluendus: The Priest (saith he) when as according to his office he hath heard the diversities of sins, knoweth who is to be bound, who is to be loosed. Right so as in the time of Moses law he pronounced not, who was clean of Lepre, who was not, before that he had viewed the colour, the bunches, and all other tokens of that disease. And thus it followeth of the words of Christ, that Confession of all Sins, at least deadly, must be made to the Priest, before they can be remitted. Which Priest is the Minister of this Sacrament, and hath authority to absolve, either Ordinary, or by Commission of the Superior.  
Again, for proof that Confession is necessary, we sat, that to remit and retain sins committed against God, as to bind and to loose, be judicial acts. And therefore by these words Christ ordained a Court, 
This Consistory stood sometime in Excommunication, sometime in preaching.  a Consistory, a seat of judgement in the Church, and appointed the Apostles and their Successors to be judges. And that this may appear not to be a fantasy of our own heads, S. Augustine so expoundeth those words of S. john in his Revelation: Et vidi ledes, etc. And I saw seats, and some sitting on them, and judgement was given. We must not think (●aithe he) this to be spoken of the last judgement, but we must understand the Seats of the Rulers, and the Rulers themselves, by whom now the Church is governed. And as for the judgement given, it seemeth not to be taken for any other, then for that, whereof it was said, What things ye bind in Earth, they shallbe bound also in Heaven: and what things ye lose on Earth, they shall be loosed also in Heaven. Sundry other Fathers have uttered in their writings the same Doctrine. 
In Mat. Cap. 16.  Hilarius upon the sixteenth Chapter of Matthew saith, Beatus Coeli ianitor, etc. Blessed is the Porter of Heaven, whose earthly judgement (that is to say, which is given here on Earth) is a foreiudged authority in Heaven, that what things be bound, 
Li. 1. Epi. 2. De dignit. sacerd. li. 3.  or loosed in Earth, they have the condition of the same Statute also in Heaven. S. Cyprian hath the like saying in an Epistle to Cornelius. Chrysostom saith, that Christ hath translated all judgement, which he received of the Father, unto the Apostles, and Priests. Gregory Nazianzene in an Oration to the Emperor and his Princes, saith to the Emperor, Ouis mea es, & nos habemus Tribunalia: 
This saying pertaineth, no● to Confession, but to the Authority of God's word.  Thou art my Sheep, and we have our seats of judgement. S. Gregory the Pope compareth the Sacrament of Penance with a court of justice, in which causes be first examined and tried, and afterward judged. That the same is to be done by the Priest. S. bernard showeth: Who, as also the learned Father Hugo de S. Victore, be not afraid to say after S. Cyprian, Hilary, and Chrysostom, that the sentence of Peter remitting Sins, goeth before the sentence of Heaven. This Ordinance of Christ requireth, that al. Trespasses, Offences, Disorders, Transgressions, and Sins committed against him and his Laws, be referred to this Consistory.  
Whether these Defenders allow Public Confession, or no, we know not: but whereas they inveigh against Private Confession, and say in spiteful words, which they have learned in the School of Satan, being loath the Sins of the People, whereby he holdeth his Kingdom, should be remitted, that Christ's Disciples received not the authority of the Keys, that they should hear private Confessions of the People, and listen to their whisperings: We tell them that Confession of all deadly Sins is of the 
* Untruth. As it is proved before. Confession grounded upon Natural Reason.  Institution of God, not of Man. But concerning the manner of confessing secretly to a Priest alone, it is most agreeable to Natural Reason, that secret Sins be confessed secretly  

A vain forgery.  Clement amongst those things that he acknowledgeth himself to have received of Peter, this is One, as he writeth in his first Epistle translated by Rufine the Priest: That, if it fortune either envy or Infidelity privily to creep into any man's heart, or any other like evil: he which regardeth his Soul, be not ashamed to confess those things to him, that is in Office over him, to the end that by him, through the word of God, and wholesome counsel, he may be healed. So as by perfit Faith and good works he may escape the pains of everlasting fire, and come to the rewards of Life that endureth for ever. No man speaketh more plainly of Secret Confession 
* Untruth. For he speaketh only of open Confession.  than Origen, and that in sundry places, to which for brevities sake I remit the Reader. In. 2. Ca Levitici, Homil. 2. De Principijs, Lib. 3. In Psal. 37. Homil. 2. Where he compareth the state of a sinner to a man, that hath evil and undigested humours in his Stomach. And saith that as by remaining of such evil matter, the man feeleth himself very sick, and by vomiting of it forth, he is eased: so the sinner by keeping his sins secret, is the more grievously charged in his own conscience, and standeth in danger to be choked with the phlegm and humour of his sins. But if he accuse himself, and confess his faults, he both vomiteth forth his sins, 
All this belongeth to open Confession.  and digesteth the cause of the same. S. Cyprian as in many other places, so most plainly speaketh of Secret Confession. Sermone. 5. de lapsis. Although (saith he of certain devout persons) they be entangled with no great Sin, 
Confession of evil thought.  yet because at least they thought of it, the same unto the Priests of God Confess they sorrowfully and simply. They make Confession of their Conscience, they lay forth the burden of their mind, etc.  
S. Augustine treating of the Power of the Keys in many places, but specially of Confession in Psal. 60. Where speaking much of the necessity of Confession, he saith thus: Why fearest thou to be Confessed? If not being Confessed thou remain hidden, not being Confessed thou shalt be damned. And afterwards thus: To this end God requireth Confession, to deliver the humble: to this end he damneth him that confesseth not, to punish the Proud. Therefore be thou sorry before thou be Confessed: being Confessed, Rejoice: thou shalt be hole.  
By these and many other Holy Fathers, of whom there is no doubt, but they had the Holy Ghost for their Teacher and prompter of all Truth, the Catholic Church hath been persuaded, that the recital and rehearsing of 
* Untruth: Read the Answer.  all sins before the Priest is necessary to Salvation: unless necessity for lack of a Priest or other wise, exclude us from it: and that a 
Untruths, many, and manifest, as shall appear.  General Confession in no wise sufficeth. True Faith acknowledgeth, that Confession is to be made of all ● sins, as ● commanded by Christ, and the Apostles, commended to us by the ● Father's of the Primitive Church, by all ● learned Doctors, and general use of the ● wholeChurch. And if the express term of secret or auricular Confession be 
* Untruth. For it is never found. Otherwise let him show it.  Seldom mentioned in the Ancient Fathers, as that of Public Confession is often times, as in the Nicene Council, and in sundry other places: that is nothing repugnant to the Doctrine of the Catholic Church.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
All this great show of Authorities of Fathers, and Doctors, M. harding himself in the end dischargeth easily with one Word. For, notwithstanding all, that be could best devise to say herein, his Conclusion at the last is this, The Express Term of secret, or Auriculare Confession is Seldom mentioned in the Ancient Fathers. Seldom, he saith, as if it were sometimes used, although but Seldom. But if he had left, Seldom, and said, Never, I trow, his tale had been the truer.  
For the rest, we say, as before: We make no Confusion of the Keys. Our Doctrine is plain, that there be two Keys in the Church of God: The one of Instruction, the other of Correction. Whereof the one worketh inwardly, the other outwardly: The one before God, the other before the Congregation. And yet either of these standeth wholly in the Word of God. And therefore S. Paul saith, 
2. Timoth. 3.  Omnis Scriptura Divinitùs inspirata utilis est ad Doctrinan, ad Redargutionem, ad Correctionem, ad Institutionem, etc.: All Scriptures inspired from God are profitable, To teach the Truth: To reprove falsehood: To correct the Wicked: To Nourtoure, and inform the Godly.  
Of the Former of these Keys S. Paul saith, 
Actor. 16.  Believe in the Lord jesus: and thou shalt be safe, with all thy House.  
Of the other he saith. 
2. Corinth. 10.  The Weapons of our warfare are not fleshly: but mighty through God, to throw down holds, casting down every High thing, that is builded up against the knowledge of God, and to bring all understanding captive to the Obedience of Christ.  
This Doctrine seemeth to be simple, and plain, and without Confusion.  
touching M. Caluine, it is great wrong, untruly to report so Reverend a Father, and so Worthy an Ornament of the Church of God. If you had ever known the order of the Church of Geneva, & had seen four thousand people, or more receiving the Holy Mysteries together at one Communion, ye could not without your great shame, & want of modesty, thus untruly have published to the world, that by M. calvin's doctrine, the Sacraments of Christ are Superfluous. Certainly to leave all, that he hath otherwise spoken of the Sacraments in general, Of the Sacrament of Christ's last Supper he writeth thus: Magnum Consolationis, 
Institution. Cap. 18. 2.  ac suavitatis fructum ex hoc Sacramento colligere possunt piae animae: quòd illîc Testimonium habeant, Christum sic nobis adunatum esse, sic nos illi vicissim insertos, adeoque in unum Corpus cum ipso coaluisse, ut quicquid ipsius est, nostrum vocare liceat: The Godly minds may take great fruit of pleasure, and Comfort of this Sacrament: for that therein they have a witness, that Christ is so made one with us, and we so graffed into him, and are so grown both into one Body, that what so ever is his, we may now call it ours.  
But he saith, The Supper is a token of remembrance, to lift up, or to help our infirmity. For if otherwise we were mindful enough of Christ's Death, this help were Superfluous.  
O M. harding, how far may malice bear a man? Because M. Caluine saith, We are weak, and have need of out ward Sacraments, to quicken the dullness of our Senses, saith he therefore, that the Sacraments be Superfluous? If he had likewise said, Our bodies be weak, and have need to be refreashed with Meat, and Drink, would ye gather thereof, that Meat, and Drink are Superfluous? Nay contrariwise he concludeth, We have need of Sacraments: Therefore Sacraments be needful: and the greater our weakness is, the more need have we of such remedies. His words amongst many others of like sense be these: Sic est exigua nostra Fides, 
Institution. Cap. 16. 3.  ut nisi undique fulciatur, atque omnibus modis sustentetur, statim concutiatur, fluctuet, vacillet: So small is our Faith, that unless it be borne up of every side, and by all means be maintained, it shaketh, it wavereth, and is like to fall.  
If this be so dangerous a Doctrine, as you tell us, why then are the Ancient Catholic Fathers suffered to hold and maintain the same? Dionysius, whom you so often call S. Paul's Scholar, writeth thus, 
Eclesiast. Hicrarch. Cap. 1.  Nos imaginibus sensibilibus, quantum fieri potest, ad Divinas adducimur Contemplationes: We, as much as may be, by Sensible Images, or Sacraments are brought unto Divine Contemplations. Likewise S. Augustine saith, 
In question. Vet. Testamen.  Sacramenta propter Carnales Visibilia instituta sunt: ut ab illis, quae oculis cernuntur, ad illa, quae intelliguntur, Sacramentorum gradibus transferamur: Visible Sacraments are ordained for Carnal men: that by the steps of Sacraments we may be lead from the things, that we see with eye, unto the things, that we understand. 
Cap●ian. De Coena Domini. Chrysost. ad Pop●l. Antiochen. Homil. 60.  So saith S. Cyprian, Fidei nostrae infirmitas Symboli argumento edocta est, etc. The weakness of our Faith is taught by the understanding of the Sacrament, etc. So S. Chrysostom, Si incorporei essemus, nuda, & incorporea nobis haec ipsa daret. Nunc quia Corporibus insertas habemus animas, sub visibilibus spiritualia tradit: If we were Bodiless, God would give us these things bare, and Bodiless. But for as much, as we have Souls fastened unto our Bodies, therefore God giveth us things Spiritual under things Visible. 
Chrysost in Matthae. Homil. 22.  Again he saith, Rectis, & Fidelibus Scripturae non sunt Necessariae, dicente Apostolo, Lex justis non est posita: To the Godly, and Faithful the Scriptures are not Necessary: For so the Apostle saith, There is no Law provided for the just. And again, Oportuerat quidem nos nihil indigere auxilio Literarum, sed tam nudam in omnibus vitam exhibere, 
Chryso. in Matthae. Homi. 1.  ut Librorum vice Gratia Spiritus uteremur: It behoved us to have no need of the Scriptures: but in all things to show our Lives so pure, and clean, that in steed of Books we might use the Grace of the Holy Ghost. 
Hieron. in Pro●●mio in Lamen. Hieremiae.  In like manner S. Jerome saith, Cùm meruerimus esse cum Christo, & similes Angelis fuerimus, tunc Librorum Doctrina cessabit: When we shall obtain to be with Christ, and shallbe like unto the Angels, than the Doctrine of Books shall give place.  
Now tell us, M. harding, must we hereof conclude, as you do, that these Holy Fathers, S. Cyprian, S. Augustine, S. Jerome, S. Chrysostom, held false, & perilous Doctrines, & with wicked temerity would abandonne both Scriptures, and Sacraments, as things not Necessary? Certainly for full resolution hereof, M. Caluine himself saith thus, 
johan Calvinus in Antidoto ad 7. Sessionem Concisijs Tridentini.  Facilè patior, ut, quae Christus nobis dedit, Salutis adiumenta, eorum usus Necessarius dicatur: quando, scilicet, datur facultas. Quanquam Semper admonendi sunt Fideles, non aliam esse cuiusuis Sacramenti Necessitatem, quàm Instrumentalis Causae, cui nequaquam alliganda est Dei vittus. Vocem sanè illam nemo pius est, qui non toto pectore exhorreat, Sacramenta res esse Superfluas: I can well suffer, that what so ever helps of Salvation Christ hath given us, the use thereof be counted Necessary: I mean, when we may have opportunity, and time to use them. How be it thus much the faithful must be warned, that the Necessity of any Sacrament is none otherwise, but as of a Cause Instrumental: unto which Cause we may not in any wise bind the Power of God. But that the Sacraments be things Superfluous, no Godly man can abide to hear it.  
Where you further charge M. Caluine, for saying, The Children of the Faithful are borne Holy, ye should rather herewith have charged S. Paul. For thus he saith, 
1. Corinth. 7.  Nunc Liberi vestri Sancti sunt: Now are your children Holy. Ye should have remembered, M. harding, that these be S. Paul's words, and not M. calvin's. His meaning is, that the Children of the faithful, notwithstanding by Nature they be the Children of Anger, yet by God's Free Election they be Pure, and Holy. This is S. Paul's undoubted Doctrine: Which notwithstanding, be never neither despised the Sacraments of Christ, nor led the people▪ as you say, to Mahomete, or Epicure.  
Here at the last, M. harding, to return, as he saith, to his Keys, first beginneth with the spiteful words, and scornful scoffs, and light Spirit of Sir Defender: which, he saith, he learned in the School of Satan, & now lieth bounds in Satan's fetters.  
To answer all such M. hardings vanities, it were but vain. Wise men will not greatly weigh these childish Tragedies.  
But he saith, The Priest holdeth a Consistory, & is a judge over the sins of the People. But being a judge he cannot discern Sins, unless he know them. Neither can he know them, but by Confession. Therefore, saith M. Harding, We tell them, 
Institution. Venial.  that Confession of all Deadly Sins is of the Institution of God: and not of Man. Marry, he saith, touching the manner of Confession, secretly to the Priest alone, it is most agreeable to Natural Reason, that secret Sins be Confessed secretly.  
Here, I beseech thee, good Christian Reader, note this one thing by the way: M. harding, contrary to common order, hath brought us the Institution of God without any manner Word of God. And thus, he saith, We tell them: as if his bare telling should stand for proof.  
Verily notwithstanding Christ gave his Apostles Power of binding, and Losing, yet it appeareth not, that he spoke any one word of Secret Confession. And Gratian a Famous Doctor of that side doubteth not to say, 
De POenit. dist. 1. Quis aliquando. De Poenit. Disi. 1. Conuertimini.  Latentia peccata non probantur Necessariò Sacerdoti Confitenda: It is not proved, that Privy sins ought of Necessity to be Confessed unto the Priest. And again, Datur intelligi, quòd etiam ore tacente. Veniam Consequi possumus: We are given to understand, that although we utter nothing with our mouth, yet we may obtain pardon, or Absolution of our sins. Therefore notwithstanding all this M. hardings telling, his own Doctor Gratian telleth him, that Auriculare Confession is not of God's Institution.  
But wherefore speaketh M. harding so precisely, and specially of Deadly Sins? Or why may not his Venial Sins come likewise in the reckoning as well, 
Concil. Trident. Cap. 5. De Confession. Rob. Holcot in 4. Senten. Qu. 4. 4. Senten. Qu. 83 Artic. 3.  as others? In deed it is specially provided in the late Chapter at trident, that Little Petite sins need not to be uttered in Confession. And Rob. Holcote saith, De Venialibus Confiteri, magis est Supererogationis, quàm Necessitatis: To make Confession of Venial Sins, is more of Devotion, then of Necessity. And Thomas of Aquine saith, Quidam probabiliter dicunt, quòd per ingressum Ecclesiae Consecratae homo consequitur Remissionem peccatorum Venialium: some say, and that not without good reason, that a man may obtain Remission of his Venial Sins, only by entry into a Church that is Consecrate. 
Extra, De p●●niten. & Remiss. Omnis utriusque. In ●loss●.  And it is purposely noted in the Gloze upon the Decretales, Venialia tolluntur, vel per Orationem Dominican, vel per Aquam Benedictam: Venial Sins may be removed, either by a Pater noster, or by Holy Water. And therefore perhaps M. harding will say, according to the judgement of these, and others his own Doctors, that his Little Pretty Venial Sins ought not of duty to be reckoned: but may otherwise be remitted, and have no need of Christ's Blood. This is a shorter way to Heaven, then either Christ, or his Apostles ever taught us.  
How be it, all this error seemeth first to have grown of mistaking these words of Beda: 
Beda in 5. Cap. jacobi. Citatur à Magistro. 4. Senten. Distin. 17.  Coaequalibus quotidiana, & Levia: graviora verò Sacerdoti Pandamus: Let us open our small, and daily Sins unto our fellows: and our great Sins unto the Priest.  
For the rest, M. hardings Resolution may stand with good favour. For seeing his Auricular Confession can hold no better by Divinity, that it may seem to hold by some what, he did well, to say, It holdeth well by Natural Reason.  
M. harding saith, The Priest can be no judge without particular knowledge of every Sin: Nor can he know without hearing: Nor can he hear without Confession. For answer hereto, Chrysostom saith, as he is before alleged: Medicinae locus hic est, 
Chrysostom. De Poenit. Homil. 9  non judicij: Non Poenas, sed Peccatorum Remissionem tribuens: Deo Soli die Peccatum tuum: Here is a place of Medicine, and not of judgement: rendering not punishment, but Remission of Sins. Open thine offences to God Only.  
But if the Priest can be no judge without knowledge, then doubtless, M. harding, your Priests for the more part can be no judges. For your own Peter Lombarde saith, 
4. Senten. Dist. 19 Posiquam.  Scientiam discernendi Omnes Sacerdotes non habent: All Priests have not knowledge to discern between sin, 
judge over sin.  and sin. And many of them be utterly ignorant, and know nothing.  
notwithstanding, be the Priest never so wise, or well learned, yet how is be able to enter into the breast of man, and to know the Secrets of the heart? S. 
1. Cor. 2. 3. Regum. 8. Roma 8. Augusti. Confession Lib. 10. Ca 3  Paul saith, What man knoweth, what is in man, but the spirit of man, that is within him? Solomon saith, God Only knoweth the thoughts of men. S. Paul saith, God Only searcheth the Heart, and reins. And S. Augustine purposely speaking hereof, as it is said before, saith thus, unde sciunt, cùm à me ipso de me ipso audiunt, an verum dicam? How know they, when they hear me speak of me self, whether I say Truth, or no? Therefore the Priest judging that, that he cannot knowmuste needs wander uncertainly, and be a very doubtful judge.  
Nevertheless, admitting the Priest to be a judge, yet, if it may be proved, either that he may be a judge over the sins of the people, without Particular knowledge of the same: or that he may come to certain, and particular knowledge thereof without any manner Auriculare Confession, then, I trust, this whole matter will soon be answered.  
first therefore I say, that a Priest having Authority to pronounce the Word of God, is thereby a judge over sin. For the Word, that he speaketh, is the Power of God unto Salvation: 
Roma. 1. Hebrae. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and a two edged sword, able to sunder the Soul▪ and the Spirit, and the marry from the bones: and is able to judge, (for so S. Paul saith) the thoughts, and cogitations of the Heart. And thus M. Harding himself granteth, that a Priest pronouncing God's Word, may therewith both Bind, and Lose: that is, in this case, to do the office of a judge. S. Augustine saith, Clavis ea dicenda est, qua pectorum dura referantur: That thing ought to be called the Key, 
August. De Sanctis, Homil. 27. Tertullian. De Pudicitia. Actor. 2.  wherewith the hardness of the heart is opened.  
So saith Tertullian, Ipse Clavem imbuit. Vides, quam? Viri Israelitae, auribus mandate, quae dico: jesum Nazarenum Virum à Deo nobis destinatum: He endued the Key. And know you, what Key? This Key, I mean: Ye men of Israel, make, what I say: jesus of Nazareth, a man appointed unto you from God. So saith S. Augustine. Loquimur in auribus vestris. unde scimus, quid agatur in Cordibus vestris? Quod autem intus agitur, non à nobis, sed ab illo agitur. Prospexit ergo Deus, ut Soluat filios mortificatorum: We speak in your ears. 
Augustin. in Psalm. 101.  But how know we, what is wrought in your hearts? How be it, what so ever is wrought within you, it is wrought, not by us, but by God. God therefore hath looked forth, to Lose the Children of them, that were appointed to death. Thus is the Priest a judge, and Bindethe, and Loosethe, without any hearing of Private Confessions.  
Of the other side, I say, that in open crimes, and Public Penance, the Priest is like wise appointed to be a judge. For notwithstanding in the Primitive Church, either the whole people, or the Elders of the Congregation had Authority herein, yet the direction, and judgement rested evermore in the Priest. And in this sense S. 
2. Tim. 5.  Paul saith unto Timothee, Receive no accusation against an Elder, unless it be under two, or three witnesses.  
And notwithstanding these Orders, for the greatest part thereof, be now utterly out of use, yet, I trust, it shall not be, neither impertinente to the matter, nor unpleasant unto the Reader, to consider, how the same were used in old times. Therefore, as it is Learnedly noted by Beatus Rhenanus, The Sinner, when he began to mislike himself, and to be penitent for his wicked life, for that he had offended God, and his Church, came first unto the Bishop, and Priests, as unto the Mouths of the Church, and opened unto them the whole burden of his heart. afterward he was by them brought into the Congregation, and there made the same Confession Openly before his Brethren: & further was appointed to make Satisfaction by Open Penance. Which Penance being duly, and humbly done, he was restored again openly unto the Church, by laieinge on of the hands of the Priests, and Elders.  
Hereof S. Paul saith unto the Corinthians, 
2. Cor. 2.  If you have forgiven any thing to any man, I have likewise forgiven it. For I me self, what so ever I have forgiven, I have forgiven it for your sakes in the person of Christ. In this Limitation of Penance, lest any thing should pass unadvisedly, and out of Order, the Priest was appointed to be the judge. 
Basili. Quae. 288. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Augu. in Enchirid. ad Laurentium, Cap. 65.  S. Basile saith, Modus Conuersionis debet esse conveniens illi, qui peccavit: The Order of Conversion, or Open Penance, must be agreeable unto him, that hath offended. And therefore S. Augustine saith, Quia Plaerunque etc. For as much as, for the most part, the grief of one man's heart is unknown unto an other, neither cometh forth into the knowledge of others, either by words, or by other tokens, as being before him, unto whom it is said, My mourning is not hid from thee, therefore it is very well, that by them, that have the oversight of the Church, certain times of Penance are appointed, that the Congregation may be satisfied. Again he saith, Horror Priùs Publica Poenitentia satisfacere: 
Augusti. De Ecclesiast. Dogmatib. Cap. 53. Cassiodor. Lib. 9 Cap. 35.  & ita Sacerdotis judicio reconciliatum Communioni sociari: I Counsel him, that first he make Satisfaction by Open Penance: that being so reconciled, he may afterward be restored unto the Communion by the judgement, and Discretion of the Priest. Likewise saith Cassiodorus, Rei expectant Communionis tempus, quod decrevit Episcopus: The Peintente parties wait for the Communion time, appointed unto them by the Bishop.  
S. Ambrose demanded of the Emperor Theodosius, being then excommunicate, Quibus Medicamentis incurabilia vulnera tua, 
Cassiodor. Lib. 9 Cap. 30.  plagasque curasti? By what Medicines have you healed your wounds, and cuts, that were incurable? The Emperor answered, Tuum Opus est, & Docere, & Medicamenta temperare: Meum verò oblata sucipere: It is your part to Instruct me, and to Minister Medicines: and it is my part to receive that you Minister. 
4. Senten. Dist. 18. Non autem.  And therefore Peter Lombarde saith, Etsi aliquis apud Deum sit solutus, non tamen in fancy Ecclesiae solutus habetur, nisi per judicium Sacerdotis: Although a man be assoiled before God, yet is he not accounted assoiled in the Face or Sight of the Church, but by the judgement of the Priest.  
By these, M. harding, I doubt not, but ye may see, that the Priest may be a judge over Sin, notwithstanding he neither hear Private Confessions, nor have particular knowledge of every several sin.  
This is that Confession, that the Holy Fathers have so often spoken of. It was made not secretly, or in a corner: but publicly, and openly, and in the sight of the Congregation. 
Origen. in Psalm 37.  Hereof Origen saith, as it is reported before: Si quis sibi sit conscius, Procedat in Medium, & ipse sui accusator existat: If any man find himself guilty, let him come forth into the mids of the Church, and let him be his own accuser. Likewise Tertullian saith, 
Tertullian. De Poenitentia.  Aduolui Presbyteris, & Aris Dei adgeniculari, & Omnibus Fratribus legationes deprecationis suae iniungere: To false down before the Priests: To kneel before the Altar, or Communion Table: and to desire All the Brethren to pray for him.  
touching S. Jerome, M. harding, ye lay in his words as faithfully, as Ananias sometime laid in his money at the Apostles feet. Ye serve us with a parcel, and hold back the rest. It is true, that S. Jerome saith, It is the priests part to discern the diversity bitwéene sin, and sin, as in cases of Excommunication, and Public offences. But wherefore could ye not espy: or rather, why would you so closely dissemble so many, and so plain Words going immediately before? For thus S. Jerome writeth of the Power of the Keys, 
Heronym. in Matthae. Cap. 16.  and of the use of Confession: Istum locum Episcopi▪ & Presbyteri non intelligentes, aliquid sibi de Pharisaeorum assumunt Supercilio: ut vel damnent innocentes, vel solvere se noxios arbitrentur: cùm apud Deum non sententia Sacerdotum, sed reorum vita quaeratur: This place the Bishops, and Priests not understanding, take unto them some part of the Proud look of the Phariseis: thinking themselves able either to Condemn the innocent, or to Absolve the guilty: Whereas in deed it is not the Absolution of the Priest, but the life of the Sinner, that is Weighed before God. These words, M. harding, would not thus have been dissembled, if ye had meant simple dealing. S. Jerome saith plainly, that your Bishops, and Priests understand not the use of the Keys: That ye have taken upon you some part of the Proud looks of the Phariseis: And that it is not the Absolution of the Priest, but the life of the party, that is accepted before God.  
In the end, he concludeth thus, Alligat, vel soluit Episcopus, vel Presbyter, non eos, qui insontes sunt, vel noxij: Sed pro officio suo, cùm Peccatorum audierit varietates, scit, qui ligandus sit, qui soluendus: The Bishop, or Priest neither Bindeth the innocent, nor Loosethe the guilty: but according to his office, when he hath heard the diversity of sins, (as in Public offences) he knoweth, who ought to be Bound, who ought to be Loosed. 
4. Senten. Dist. 18. Nec ideo.  In like sort writeth Peter Lombarde, Dominus tribuit Sacerdotibus potestatem Ligandi, & Soluendi: id est, ostendendi hominibus Ligatos, vel Solutos: God hath given to priests Power to Bind, and to Lose: that is to say, to declare unto men, that the Penitentes be either Bound, or Loosed.  
All this notwithstanding, all be it M. harding were able to prove, that the Fathers had sommewhere made mention of Confession in secret, yet should not that greatly either further his purpose, or hinder ours. For, Abuses, and Errors removed, and specially the Priest being Learned, as we have said before, we mislike no manner Confession, whether it be Private, or Public. For as we think it not unlawful, to make open Confession before many, so we think it not unlawful. Abuses always excepted, to make the like Confession in Private, either before a few, or before one alone. And, as the Holy Fathers, upon good considerations, were forced to remove the use of Open Confession, even so we say, that upon like good Considerations Private Confession also may be removed.  
Only this we say, that Christ, when he sent his Disciples into the World, and gave them Authority, to Bind, and to Lose, made no manner mention of any such Hearing of Confessions, but Only bade them go, and Preach the Gospel.  
Hilary, bernard, and Huge, as ye have alleged them, seem to say, that the judgement of Man goeth before the judgement of God. Other the like, or rather more vehement speeches ye might have found in Chrysostom: 
Chrysost. in isaiah. Homil. 5.  Coelum accipit Authoritatem ludicandi à Terra. Index seder in Terris: Dominus sequitur servum: Heaven taketh Authority of judgement from the Earth. In Earth sitteth the judge: The Lord followeth the Servant. These, and such other the like extraordinary speeches, with good Construction, may be comfortable to the afflicted mind. But, as one said sommetime, they must be received with a Grain of Salt: For otherwise of themselves they be unsavoury. For S. Jerome saith, as I have alleged before, 
Hierony. in Matthae. Cap. 16. 11. Quaest. 3. Tunc vera.  Apud Deum, non sententia Sacerdotis, sed reorum vita quaeritur: It is not the Sentence, or Absolution of the Priest, but the life of the Penitent, that is accepted before God. And again, Tunc vera est sententia Praesidentis, quando Aeterni sequitur sententiam judicis: Then the judgement of the Presidente, or Priest is true, (not when it goeth before, but) when it followeth the judgement of the everlasting judge. And Gratian himself saith, 
De Poenit. Dist. 1 Conuertimini.  Non Sacerdotali judicio, sed largitate Divinae Gratiae Peccator emundatur: The Sinner is made Clean, not by judgement of the Priest, but by the abundance of the Heavenly Grace.  
But Nazianzene, as he is here alleged, said unto the Emperor, Ouis nostra es: Thou art Our Sheep. 
Confession nor Commanded.  No marvel. He meant, that the Emperor was One of the Flock, and Fold of Christ. So S. Ambrose said sometime unto the Emperor Valentinian: Quid honorificentius, quàm ut Ecclesiae Filius dicatur Imperator? Imperator enim bonus intra Ecclesiam, 
Ambros. ad Valentinian. Epist. 32 Chrysostom. De Verbis Esaiae, Homil. 5.  non supra Ecclesiam est: What thing is there more honourable, then for the Emperor to be called a Child of the Church? For a good emperor is Within the Church: but not Above the Church. S. Chrysostom saith, Deus ipse subiecit Caput Principis manui Sacerdotis: God himself hath set the Head of the Prince under the Hand of the Priest. For, as touching Faith, and the Obedience of the Gospel, the Highest Prince is but a Subject. All this proveth well the Authority, and Dignity of God's Word: but it maketh nothing for Confession.  
To conclude, M. harding saith, It hath been persuaded, that the reciting, and rehearsal of all sins before the Priest, is necessary to Salvation: and that a General Confession is in no wise sufficient. And again he saith, True Faith acknowledgeth, that Confession is to be made of all Sins, as Commanded by Christ, and his Apostles: Commended unto us by the Fathers of the Primitive Church, and by all Learned Doctors, and General use of the whole Church.  
Good Reader, Thou wouldst think, that amongst so many great Words, there were some Truth: and that M. harding of his modesty, and for his credits sake, would not speak so boldly without some ground. But, I beseech thee, Consider these few: and thereby judge indifferently of the rest.  
Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in Psal 50. Homil. 2 Chrysostom. in Homil. De Poeniten. & Confession. Beat. Rhenan. in Argum. Libelli Tertull. De Poenitentia.  Non dico, ut Confitearis Conseruo tuo peccata tua. Dicito Deo, qui curet ea: I will thee not to Confess thy Sins unto the Priest, that is thy fellow servant. Confess them unto God, that may heal them. Again, Cogitation tua fiat delictorum exquisitio: Sine teste sit hoc judicium: Solus Deus te Consitentem videat: Examine thy Sins in thy heart within thee. Let this judgement be without witness: Let God only see thee making thy Confession. Beatus Rhenanus, a man of great reading, and singular judgement, hereof writeth thus: Tertullianus de Clancularia ista Confessione admissorum nihil loquitur. Neque eam usquam olim Praeceptam legimus: Tertullian of this Privy Confession of Sins saith nothing. Neither do we read, that the same Kind of Privy Confession in Old times was ever Commanded. M. harding saith, It was Commanded: Rhenanus saith, It was not Commanded. If Rhenanus words be true, as they be in deed, their be M. hardings words most untrue. Likewise it is noted in the very Gloze upon M. hardings own Decrees: 
De Poenit. dist. 1. Petrus. In Gloss.  Fortè tunc (tempore Ambrosij) non erat facta Institutio Confessionis, quae modò est: Perhaps then (in the time of S. Ambrose, which was four hundred yéres after Christ) the manner of Confession, that now is used, was not appointed. 
De Poenit. Disc 1. Conuertimini.  And Gratian saith, Antequam Sacerdoti Ora nostra ostendamus, id est, Peccata nostra Confiteamur, à Lepra peccati mundamur: Before we open our mouth unto the Priest, that is to say, before we make Confession of our Sins, the Leprosy of our Sin is made clean. 
De Poenit. dist. 1. Quidam.  Theodorus saith, Quidam Deo solummodò confiteri debere peccata dicunt, ut Graeci: some say, we ought to Confess our Sins only unto God, as do the Grecians. Peter Lombarde the Chief Founder of M. hardings Divinity, 
4 Senten. dist 17. Quid ergo.  saith thus: Sanè dici potest, quòd sine Confession Oris, & solutione Poenae exterioris, Peccata delentur per Contritionem, & humilitatem Cordis: We may safely say, that without Confession of the Mouth, and Absolution of the out ward pain, Sins be forgiven by the Contrition, and humility of the Heart.  
Briefly, Gratian having thoroughly debated the matter of both sides, that is to say, both for Confession, and against Confession, in the end concludeth thus, as it is said before: 
De Poenit. dist. 1. Quamuis.  Cui harum sententiarum potiùs adhaerendum sit, Lectoris judicio reseruatur. Vtráque enim sententia fautores habet Sapientes, & Religiosos Viros: Whether of these saieinges it is best to follow, it is left to the judgement of the Reader: For either saying is maintained, and favoured, both by wise, and by Godly men. And, whereas M. harding saith, Confession of all Sins is Commanded by Christ, and his Apostles, his own Gloze upon his own Decrees openly reproveth his error, 
De Poenit. dist. 5. In Poenitentia, In Gloss.  and teacheth him the contrary. The words be these: Meliùs dicitur. Confessionem institutam fuisse à quadam universalis Ecclesiae Traditione, potiùs quàm ex Novi, vel Veteris Testamenti Authoritate: It is better said, that Confession was appointed by some Tradition of the Universal Church, then by any Authority, or Commandment of the New, or Old Testament.  
Now, good Christian Reader, I beseech thee, examine a little the Truth of M. hardings tale. first he saith, The Recitinge, and Rehearsal of all Sins before the Priest is Necessary to Salvation: 
1.  Chrysostom answereth, Let God Only hear thy Confession. There is one Untruth. M. harding saith, General Confession is not sufficient: 
2.  Peter Lombarde answereth, Sine Confession Oris, etc. Without any Confession made by mouth our Sins may be forgiven. There are two Untruths.  
M. harding saith, 
3.  Confession of all Sins is commanded by Christ, and his Apostles: His own Gloze saith, It is Only a Tradition of the Church, commanded neither in the Old Testament, nor in the New. There are three Untruths. 
4. 5.  M. harding saith, It was commended unto us by the * Doctors, and Fathers of the * Primitive Church: Rhenanus saith, We read not, that this kind of Privy Confession in the Old times was ever Commanded: And his own Gloze saith, In the time of S. Ambrose (which was four hundred years after Christ) perhaps it was not used. There are Four, & Five Untruths. M. 
6.  Harding saith, It hath ever been allowed by all the Learned Doctors: His own Gratian answereth him, The Contrary hath been maintained, and favoured both by Wise, and by Godly Fathers. There are six Untruths.  
To be short, M. harding saith: It hath been Commended unto us by the General use of the whole Church: 
7.  Theodorus answereth him, The whole Church of Grecia useth it not. There are Seven apparent, and great Untruths, disclosed by M. hardings own Doctors. He could not have comprised so much Untruth in so narrow room without some study.  
Erasmus a man of great judgement saith thus, 
Erasm. in Scholar in Epitaphium Fabiolae.  Apparet, tempore Hieronymi nondum Institutam fuisse Secrètam admissorum Confessionem: quam posted Ecclesia salubriter instituit: si modò rectè utantur ea & Sacerdotes, & Laici. Verùm in hoc labuntur Theologi quidam parùm attenti, quòd, quae Veteres scribunt de hurusmodi Publica, & Generali Confession, ea trahunt ad hanc Occultam, & longè diversi generis: It appeareth, that in the time of S. Jerome (which was four hundred years after Christ) Secret Confession of Sins was not yet ordained: Which notwithstanding was afterward wholesomely, and profitably appointed by the Church, so that it be well used, as well by the Priests, as by the People. But herein certain Divines, not considering advisedly, what they say, are much deceived: for what so ever the Ancient Fathers writ of General, and Open Confession, they wrest, and draw the same to this Privy, and Secret kind, which is far of an other sort.  
Here, M. harding, Erasmus telleth you, ye are foully deceived: and showeth you also the cause of your error: for that, as he saith, ye consider not advisedly, what ye either read, or write: but where so ever ye hear this word Confession, ye imagine straight way, It must needs be your own Auriculare Confession, and can be none other.  
last of all, ye grant, The express Term of Auriculare, or Secret Confession is seldom mentioned in the Ancient Fathers. Here, M harding, wanteth some part of your simplicity. If ye would have your Reader to believe you, 
Authority, and Power.  ye should have alleged certain of the Ancient Fathers. One at the least, if ye could have found so many, that had at any time used the express term of Auriculare, or Secret Confession. Otherwise it had been the better, and plainer way, to have Confessed expressly, that the same express term is never used in any one of all the Ancient Fathers. How be it, if Auriculare, or Secret Confession had then been used, it could never so long have lacked a name.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 3.  
We say, that the Priest in deed is a judge in this case, but yet hath no manner of Right to challenge an Authority, or Power, as saith Ambrose.  

M. harding.  
Whereas ye make preaching of the Gospel to be the Keys, how call ye the Priest judge in this case? Preach ye never so much, the conscience of man being so secret a thing as it is, how can ye judge, who in wardly and thoroughly repenteth, and who repenteth not? And though one repent, and be sorry, and have remorse of his former life, though he look unto the light of the Gospel as ye say, and believe in Christ, what then? how can ye judge of such a Person? 
* And do ye know his heart by tooting in his ear?  Do ye know his heart by looking in his face?  
The Priest duly using the Key of knowledge and discretion, doth the office of a judge, and as he seeth cause, either Loseth or Bindeth. As touching the priests Authority, or Power, which to challenge he hath no right, 
De Poenit. Dist. 1. C. Verbum Dei.  for so your Interpreter maketh you to speak, and impute it to S. Ambrose: we deny, that S. Ambrose saith 
* Untruth. For the words be these. Nullius potestatis iura exercet.  even very so▪ But▪ as we may gather of his words, as he meaneth that a Priest exerciseth not the right of any his own proper power in remitting sins: so in the very place by you alleged, he saith the contrary to your Doctrine. For the Right of loosing and binding (saith he) is granted to Priests only, and therefore the Church challengeth it rightly, which hath true Priests. Lo he useth the word of challenge. Again in the same place he avoucheth, that he which receiveth the Holy Ghost, (whom Priests receive, when they be Consecrated in the Sacrament of Order) receive also power to Lose and Bind Sins. For prouse thereof he allegeth the Scripture: 
johan. 20.  Take ye the Holy Ghost, whole sins ye remit, they are remitted: and whose sins ye retain, they are retained. And if you, Defender, were accustomed to make your humble Confession, and so to be assoiled, you should hear some Ghostly Fathers say to you, after certain other words, Auctoritate mihi commissa ego te Absoluo, etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In what sense the Priest without hearing Confessions may be a judge, we have sufficiently said before. Neither know I, what fancy M. harding can have in so often rehearsal of one thing. With what words, or colour of Commission, M. harding can furnish out his Authority, it forceth not greatly. Verily without some show, or countenance, his credit would not hold. In deed, Hugo, and bernard say, The judgement of God followeth the judgement of man. And Pope julius saith, 
Concil. Tom. 1. De Primatis Rom. Ecclesiae.  Habet Sacrosancta Romana Ecclesia Potestatem, singulari sibi Privilegio Concessam, Aperire, & Claudere ianuas Regni Coelestis, quibus volverit: The Holy Church of Rome hath Power grounted unto her by Singular Privilege, to Open, and to Shut the gates of the Kingdom of Heaven, to whom she listeth. And Cardinal Cusanus saith, 
Nicol Cusanus. De Aut●●●●●a. Eccle & on. Supra & Contra Scripturam.  Haee Ligandi, & ●oluendi Potestas, non minor est in Ecclesia, quàm in Christo: This Power of binding, and Losing is no less in the Church. than it is in Christ.  
But it is no great wisdom to give over much credit unto them, that so often have deceived us. If their Authority be so great, as they make it, let them show the words of their Commission. The saying of S. Ambrose is clear, and plain: Verbum Dei dimittit Peccata. Sacerdos est judex. 
De Poenit. dis 1. Verbum Dei.  Sacerdos quidem officium suum exhibet: Sed nullius potestatis iura exercet. The Word of God foregeeveth Sins. The Priest is the Judge. The Priest executeth his office: But he exerciseth the right of no Power. And to this end in an other place he allegeth the words of the Prophet isaiah, spoken in the person of God, Ego sum, 
Ambros. De Noë & Arca, Ca 13. Esaiae 4. Augu. De Scalis Paradisi.  ego sum, qui deleo iniquitates tuas: I am he, I am he, that put a way thine iniquities.  
And to lay more weight to S. Ambroses' words, S. Augustine saith in like sense, Officium Baptizandi Dominus concessit multis: Potestatem verò, & Authoritatem in Baptismo remittendi peccata sibi Soli reseruavit: Our Lord hath granted the office of baptizing unto many: but the Power, and Authority in Baptism to foregeeve Sins, he hath reserved Only to himself. 
Ambros. De poeviten. li. 2. Ca 7  So saith S. Ambrose, Nostrum est onera remittere: Illius est resuscitare: Illius est educere de Sepulchro: It is our part, to remove the stone from the grave (by preaching, by Counsel, and by Exhortation) But it is the lords work to raise up the dead: It is the lords work, to bring him from the pit. 
Ambros. Lib. 9 Epist. 76  Likewise again he saith, Neque Legatus, neque nuntius, sed ipse Dominus saluum fecit populum suum. Solus remanet: quia non potest hoc cuiquam hominum cum Christo esse common, ut peccata condonet. Solius hoc munus est Christi, qui tulit peccata mundi. It is not the ambassador: It is not the Messenger, but the Lord himself, that hath saved his people. The Lord remaineth alone. For noman can be partner with God in foregeevinge of Sins. This is Christ's Only office, that hath taken away the sins of the World.  
And yet is not the priests office void of Power. He hath Power, and Commission to open the Will of God, 
2 Corin 5. Tertull. De Baptismo. Augustinus.  and, as S. Paul saith, to speak unto the people, even as in the Person of Christ. So Tertullian saith, Dandi Baptismi ius habet Summus Sacerdos, id est, Episcopus: The Chief Priest, that is to say, the Bishop, hath Right, and Power to give Baptism. But S. Augustine saith, Ministerium dedit servis: Potestatem sibi retinuit: God gone the ministery (of Remission of Sins) unto his Servants: 
Luk. 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  But the Power thereof he retained to himself. So, when Christ sent out his Disciples to Preach the Gospel, he gave them Authority, & Power.  
If M. harding will say, There is no Power, or Authority in the Reading. or publishing of God's Word, his own Doctor Hosius will tell him, that when the Bishop Ordereth a Reader, even after the manner of the Church of Rome, he saith unto him, 
Hosius in Confession Petricovien. Cap. 52.  Habe Potestatem legendi Epistolas in Ecclesia Sancta Dei, tam pro vivis, quàm pro defunctis: Have thou Power to Read the Epistles in the Holy Church of God, as well for the quick, as for the Dead.  
In deed this is a very special Power, such as, I trow, Christ and his Apostles never taught us. Neither would I have noted it in this place, saving that Hosius, the profoundest Proctor of that side, thought it a matter worth the noting. Such power therefore belongeth to Priests, and Ministers in the Church of God. But the Power of giving Remission of Sin belongeth to God alone, and to none other. 
Hieronym. in Matthae. Cap. 16.  If any man will presume further, S. Jerome saith, as it is alleged before, He hath put on the proud look of the Phariseis: And saith further, that such Priests, and Bishops understand not the Words of Christ. For, saith he, It is not the judgement or Absolution of the Priest, but the Life of the Penitent, that is regarded before God: And therefore S. Augustine saith, Ind nata sunt Schismata, 
August. De Fide & Operibus. Cap. 14.  cùm homines dicunt, Nos Sanctificamus immundos: Nos justificamus impios: nos petimus: nos impetramus: Hereof grow Schisms, and Divisions in the Church, when men say, we Sanctify the unclean: we Justify the wicked: we desire: we obtain.  
How he it, here cometh in Richardus de Sancto Victore, God wait, with a full cold distinction. For thus he saith, Christus potuit Dimittere Peccara: Nos vero ' non possumus Dimittere Peccata, sed tantùm Remittere.  
Peter Lombarde saith much better: 
Richa De Sancte Victore, De Potesta. Ligan. & Soluen. Par. 1 Cap. 24.  Christus Sacerdotibus tribuit potestatem Ligandi, & Soluendi, id est, ostendendi hominibus Ligatos, vel Solutos: Christ hath given Power unto Priests to Bind, and to Lose: that is to say, to declare unto men, who be Bound, who be Lose.  
Sa saith Bonaventura of the Priests under the Law of Mases: 
4 Senten. dist 18. Nec ideo. bonaven 4. Sen. dist. 1. In Prooemio. 1 qu. 1. Dictum est. De joenit. dist. 1. Verbum Dei.  Mundare dicebantur, quia mundatum ostendebant: They were said to cleanse the Leprosy, bicouse they showed, who was cleansed. So saith S. Augustine, Nec voluntas Sacerdotis obesse vel prodesse potest, sed Meritum Benedictionem Poscentis: The will of the Priest can neither further, nor hinder: But the Merit of him, that desueth Absolution.  
Thus therefore S. Ambrose meaneth, The Priest is a judge to discern between sin, and sin, as well Private, as Public, But Right, Power, or Authority to foregeeve fianes, he hath none.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 4.  
And therefore our savour jesus Christ, to reprove the Negligence of the Scribes, and Phariseis in teaching, did with these words rebuke them, saying: Woe be unto you Scribes, & Phariseis, which have taken away the Keys of knowledge, & have shut up the Kingdom of Heaven before men. seeing then the Key whereby the way, and entry to the Kingdom of God is opened unto us, is the Word of the Gospel, and the expounding of the Law, and Scriptures, we say plainly, where the same Word is not, there is not the Key.  

M. harding.  
By this we are induced to grant, 
the knowledge of the Scripture is a Key.  that the knowledge of the Scripture is a Key, whereby the gate to the Truth is opened, the use whereof consisieth in expounding of the Law, and Prophets, as they show Christ. But we say, this not to be the special Keys, which Christ gave to the church, but one Key alone. And so Christ calleth it, where he rebuked the Scribes and Phariseis. Though you have put it otherwise then the Gospel hath, in the Plural number. And this Key is common to the Law, and to the Gospel. But the Keys, which we speak of, are another thing. By the name of these leies, We understand the whole spiritual Power, which Christ first promised to Peter, and afterward gave to the Apostles, and from them is transferred to all Bishops and Priests. By which Power Priests teach the Gospel, Consecrate the Body and Blood of Christ, and Minister the Sacraments, through Authority of the Word Absolve Penitentes, and excommunicate Public and heinous sinners. The Key that you confusely speak of, naming it to be the Word of the Gospel, and expounding of the Law, and Scriptures, is one part pertaining to this spiritual Power: it is not the whole Power. And where this Word is not, that is to say, where the Scriptures be not taught, and the Gospel preached, there is not the Key, say ye: there is not the exercise of that Key, say we. Yet there is this spiritual Power, that is to wit, there be the Keys. Ye we say that a simple Priest 
* Untruth. The Key of Knowledge, without knowledge.  though he have no great learning, yet hath he the Keys, though he might do better, and more worthily use them, having learning and knowledge.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. harding much and often complaineth of the Confusion of the Keys: that we appoint not distinctly each Key to his several office. Mark therefore, I beseech thee, Gentle Reader, hew distinctly, and plainly M. harding himself entreateth of the same.  
first, 
confusion of Keys.  of the two Keys, that Christ hath delivered us in the Gospel, he hath made a great many of Keys: The Key of knowledge: The key of Order: The Key of Power: The Key of Discretion: The Key of Sacraments: And for as much, as Sacraments by his Doctrine be Seven in number, there must also be of this sort Seven other several Keys. And yet over and besides all these Keys being so many, the Pope hath also One Special Master Key. Afterward by a sleight. and by nimbleness of his fingers, he conveyeth all this heap of Keys into two Only Keys: whereof the One he calleth the Key of knowledge, and the other the Key of Power: Which two Keys notwithstanding in the end are suddenly consumed both into One only Key. For where as the Key of knowledge is lost, there, by M. hardings judgement, Power only remaineth without knowledge: And that Key alone dischargeth all offices, and is utterly all in al.  
This Key of Power without knowledge, must needs be the Key of Ignorance: Or, as they themselves have used to call it, Clavis Errans, The Key of Error. Or which Key undoubtedly Christ said sommetime, 
Luk. 22. 4. Senten. Dist. 19 Postquam. Alexand. De Hales, Par. 4. Qu. 79.  Hoc est tempus vestrum, & Potestas Tenebrarum: This is your time, and the Power of Darkness. Peter Lombarde himself saith, Many Priests be Ignorant, and have not the Key of knowledge: Alexander of Hales saith, Scientia non est Clavis: Knowledge is no Key at al.  
Yet M. harding answereth us, that the simple ignorant Priest, that knoweth nothing, hath not only One Key, but both Keys (for so he calleth them in the Plural number) that is to say, as well the Key of knowledge, as the Key of Power. And thus have they forged a Key of knowledge without knowledge: and with the same key they expound, and open the Scriptures: they Minister the Sacraments: they Bind: they Lose: and break up a by way into the Kingdom of Heaven. Yet must we believe, that they speak simply, and plainly of these Keys, and without confusion.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 5.  
And seeing one manner of Word is given to all, and one only Key belongeth to all, we say, there is but one only Power of all Ministers, as concerning opening, and shutting. And as touching the Bishop of Rome, for all that his flattering Parasites sing these words in his ears, To thee will I give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, (as though these Keys were fit for him alone, and for no body else) except he go so to work, as men's Consciences may be made pliaunte, and be subdued to the Word of God, we deny, that he doth either Open, or Shut, or hath the Keys at al.  
And although the taught, and instructed the People (as would God he might once truly do, and persuade himself, it were at the least any piece of his duty) yet we think his Key to be never a white better or of greater force, than other men's. For who hath severed him from the rest? Who hath taught him more conningely to Open, or better to Absolve then his brethren?  

M. harding.  
Your ground being false, what ye build thereon some faileth. The whole Power of the Keys pardy (how often times must we tell you one thing?) standeth not in preaching only, but in sundry other excellent ministries also, as we have proved. If the Bishop of Rome preach not, he doth neis the Open, nor shut by preaching: we grant. Yet men's Consciences being made plaint and subdued by the Word of God by others, 
Preach by a Deputy.  that preach at his appointment, he may by virtue of the Keys either Open or Shut, Lose or Bind, as by discretion he seeth cause. And whereas Christ said to Peter, and therefore to the Bishop of Rome Peter's Successor, To thee will I give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: 
Matthae. 16.  will ye call them flattering Parisites, that yield to him that, which Christ gave to him? Such vomit showeth what humour your stomach is charged withal. denying the B. of Rome, whom for all the spite ye bear toward him, ye must acknowledge to be a Bishop, to have the Keys at all, unless he preach in his own person, ye declare your great ignorance, and fowl temerity. Know ye not, that a Power annexed to an Order, and Vocation is not taken away from one by not exercising the same in his own Person?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The effect hereof, besides other ordinary idle talk, standeth in two points. first, M. Harding saith, The Pope, though he do nothing himself in his own person, yet he may sufficiently feed the Flock of Christ, and Bind, & Lose, and discharge all duties by his Deputies, and Vnderuicars, that is to say, by his Cardinals, and Bishops, which are as careful, and zealous for their offices, and tender their charge, as much, as he. This ground, I trow, is not false: and therefore, what so ever M. Harding shall build thereon, it can never fail. Notwithstanding, I do not remember, that either Christ, or his Apostles ever used to do the like. One said sommetime, 
Titus Livius Decade. 3. Lib. 6.  Impudens est Imperator, qui, cùm alienis oculis omnia ei agenda sint, postulat sibi aliorum Capita, & Fortunas committi: He is a shameless Captain, that, whereas he must guide all things by the eyes of others, will require other men's lives, ad goods to be committed to his hands.  
Pope Damasus saith, 
Damasus Papa Epistola 4.  Illi Episcopi, qui talia sibi praesumunt, videntur mihi similes esse Meretricibus. quae starim, ut pariunt, infants suos al●s nutricibus tradunt educandos: ut suam citiùs libidinem explere valeant. Sic & isti Infantes suos, id est, populos sibi Commissos, alijs educan does tradunt, ut ipsi suas libidines expleant, id est, ut pro suo libitu Saecularibus curis inhient, &, quod cuique visum fuerit, liberitis agant: Such bishops taking such matters upon themselves, seem like unto H●rsottes: Which as soon, as they be once delivered, straight way deliver out their Children unto Nurses, that they may the rather follow their pleasures. Even so these Bishops diliver over their children, that is to say, the people committed to their Charges, to be reared, and brought up by others▪ that they may the better accomplish their pleasures, that is to say, that they may give themselves over to worldly cares, and do what so ever shall like them best.  
Further saith M. Harding, Christ said unto Peter, To thee will I give the Keys: Feed my Sheep: Confirm thy Brethren: Ergo, the Pope is a Lord Paramounte, and hath a Power Pierclesse over all the world. Peter of Palus hereof writeth thus: Christus dixit Apostolis, 
Petrus De Palude, De Potestate collata Apostolis, Arti. 1.  Quaecunque ligaveritis in terra, erunt ligata & in Coelo, Non dixit, In Coelis, sicut Petro dixerat: Sed in Coelo uno. unde non sunt tantae perfectionis, sicut Petrus: Christ said unto the Apostles, what so ever ye shall Bind in Earth, it shallbe bound in Heaven. He said not, It shallbe bound in Heavens, as he said to Peter: But in One Heaven. Therefore the other Apostles were not of such perfection, as Peter was.  
Again he saith, 
Petr. de Palude.  Illa verba, Quaecunque ligaveris, intelliguntur de Vtroque Foro, & de utraque Potestate. Illa autem Verba, Quorumcunque ligaveritis, intelliguntur anúm de Foro Conscientiae: These words (spoken unto Peter) What so ever thou shalt Bind, are understood of both Courts, as well of the Court of Judgement, as of the Court of Conscience. But these other words (Spoken unto the other Apostles) What so ever you shall Bind, etc. are understood only of the Court of Conscience.  
This fantasy, 
Equal Power.  it seemeth, he learned out of these words of Origen: Non modica differentia est, 
Orizen. in Mattha. Tractatu 6.  quòd Petro quidem datae sunt claves, non unius Coeli, sed multorum Caelorum: ut quaecuque I gaverit super tertam, sint ligata, non tantùm uno in Caelo, sed evam in omnibus Coelis. Ad alios dicit, ut soluant, & ligent, non in Coelis, sicut Petrus, said in uno Caelo. quia non sunt in tanta perfectione, sicut Petrus, ut ligent, & soluamt in omnibus Coelis. The difference is great: For unto Peter are geeven the Keys, not of one Heaven but of many Heavens: that, what so ever he bindeth in Earth, shallbe bound, not only in One Heaven, but also in all the heavens. But unto the rest he giveth Power to Bind, and Lose, not in the Heavens, as Peter do the, but in One Heaven: for that they were not in such perfection, as Peter was, to Bind, or Lose in all the Heavens.  
This Multiplication of Heavens, as I have said, is but a fantasy: and yet to M. hardings purpose it maketh nothing. For Origen by this word Peter, meant not Peter the Apostle, but any other Godly Learned Priest, or Bishop: whom he expresseth here under the name of Peter. For it followeth immediately, Ergo, quantò melior fuerit, qui soluit, tantò beatior erit, qui soluitur: quoniam in omnibus solutus est Coelis: Therefore the better man he is, that looseth, the more blessed is he, that is Loosed: 
Origen in Matthae. Tracta. 1.  for that he is Loosed in all the Heavens. Again he saith, Quod si nos idem loquimur, quod Petrus locutus est, efficimur Petrus. Et nobis dicetur, Tu es Petrus. Petra enim est, quisquis est Discipulus Christi: If we speak the same, that Peter spoke, we are made Peter: And unto us it shallbe said, Thou art Peter. For he is the Rock, that is the Disciple of Christ.  
And again he saith, 
In eodem Tractatu.  Hoc dictum, Tibi dabo claves Regni Coelorum, Coeteris quoque commune est. Et, quae sequuntur, velut ad Petrum dicta, sunt omnium Communia: This saying, To thee will I give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, is common to the rest of the Apostles. And the words, that follow, as spoken unto Peter, are common unto al.  
So saith S. Augustine, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 50. Basili. in Vtia Solitaria, Ca 23.  Petrus, quando accepit claves, Ecclesiam Sanctam significavit: Peter, when he received the Keys, signified the Holy Church. So saith S. Basile, Petre, inquit, amas me● Pasce Oues meas: Et consequenter Omnibus Pastoribus, & Doctoribus eandem potestatem tribuit. Cuius signum est, quoed omnes ex Aequo & ligant, & Absoluunt, quemadmodum ille: Christ said unto Peter, ●ouest thou me? Feed my Sheep. And in like sort unto All Pastors, and Doctors he gave the same Power. A token whereof is this, that all others Bind, & Lose Equally, as well as he.  
Likewise saith S. Ambrose, 
Ambros. De Dign●ta. Sacerdotali, Cap. 2.  Dominus dixit Petro, Pasce Oues meas. Quas Oues, & quem Gregem non solùm tune Beatus Petrus suscepit, sed & nobiscum eas suscepit: & cum illo cas nos suscepimus omnes: Our Lord said unto Peter, Feed my Sheep. Which Sheep, and Flock, not Only Blessed Peter then received, but he received the sa ne together with us: And all we have received the same together with him. Likewise S. Cyprian, 
Cyprian De Sim peicetrate Praetatorum. Beda in Homil. in ●uangel. Quem ine dicunt.  Christus eandem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem: Christ gave unto all his Apostles like and Equal Power.  
So likewise saith Beda, Potestas Ligandi, & Soluendi, quamuis Soli Petro à Domino data videatur, tamen absque ulla dubietate noscendum est, quòd & Coeteris Apostolis data est: The Power of binding, and loosing, notwithstanding it seem to be geeven Only unto peter, yet without all doubt we must understand, that it was geeven also to the rest of the Apostles.  
Briefly, M. hardings own Scholastical Doctors Confess, that the Power of the Apostles was One, and Equal. But they say, that the whole multitude of the Church was committed only unto Peter: and not likewise to any other: and that therein only standeth all the difference. 
Heruaeus De potestate Papae Cap. 12.  Heruaeus saith, Quamuis Apostoli eandem habuerint à Christo, & aequalem potestatem Clavium, & jurisdictionis, tamen jurisdictionem, 
Equal Power.  siuè Materiam subiectam, non habuit, nisi Petrus, & cui eam Petrus committere voluit: notwithstanding the Apostles received of Christ equal Power of the Keys, and jurisdiction, yet the jurisdiction, or matter wherein to use their Power, none had, but Only Peter, and to whom so ever Peter would commit the same. And thus he imagineth, that all the Apostles, saving Only Peter, had Keys given them, but no House to Open: and jurisdiction, but no people to govern.  
Verily Alphonsus de Castro saith, 
Alphonsus Aduersus Haeres. Li. 2. De Absolutione.  Quando absoluit Simplex Sacerdos, tantùm absoluit de Culpa, sicut Papa: When a Simple Priest absolveth, he absolveth as much, touching Sin, as doth the Pope.  
But touching the Pope, how great so ever he fancy his Key to be above all others, if he never use the same, & if he either know not, or utter not the Word of God, we say, as before, well may he shut up the Kingdom of God before men: 
Origen. in Matthae Tracta. 1.  but open it he cannot. Origen saith, Qui funibus Peccatorum suorum constringitur, frustrà vel Ligar, vel Soluit: He that is bound with the bands of his own Sins, Bindeth and Loseth but in vain.  
To conclude, S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. De Agone Christiano Ca 30. August. De Agone Christiano Ca 31.  Cùm Petro dicitur, Omnibus dicitur, Amas me? Pasce Oues meas: These words of Christ, Lovest thou me? Feed my Sheep: when they are spoken unto Peter, they are spoken unto All Priests, or Ministers. He addeth further, traque miseri, dum in Petro Petram non intelligunt, & nolunt credere, datas Ecclesiae claves Regni Coelorum, ipsi eas de manibus amiserunt: Therefore wretched men, while in Peter they understand not Christ that is) the Rock, and while they will not believe, that the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven are given (not unto Peter alone, but) unto the Church, they have quite lost the Keys out of their hands.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 1.  
We say, that Matrimony is Holy, and Honourable in all sorts and states of persons: as in the patriarchs, in the Prophets, in the Apostles, in the Holy Martyrs, in the Ministers of the Church, and in Bishops: & that it is an honest and lawful thing (as Chrysostom saith) for a man living in Matrimony, to take upon him therewith the Dignity of a Bishop.  

M. harding.  
Matrimony is Holy and Honourable in all persons, 
Hebre. 13.  and an undefiled bed, as saith S. Paul. Yet is it not lawful for them to marry 
* Untruths, two together, as better appeareth by the Answer.  which either have by deliberate vow dedicated all manner their chastity unto God. 
Untruths, two together, as better appearcth by the answer.  or have received Holy Order. For the vowed be forbidden Marriage by express Word of God: Those that have taken Holy Orders, by Tradition of the Apostles, and Ancient ordinance of the Church.  
touching the first, 
Psal. 75.  the Scripture is plain: because a Vow is to be performed, Vovete & reddite Domino Deo vestro: Vow ye and pay (or render that ye vow) to your Lord God. Christ also saith in the Gospel, 
Matth. 19  there be some eunuchs that have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of heavens sake. He that can take, let him take. Again S. Paul speaking of young Widows, which have vowed and promised Chastity, saith, that when they wax wanton against Christ, they will marry, 
The First Faith, S. Jerome expoundeth, The Faith of Baptism. See the Answer.  having danmation, because they have broken their first Faith. Whether these Scriptures pertain hereto, and be thus to be understanded, we refer us to the Primitive Church, and to all the Holy Fathers.  
Such Marriages, or rather slidinges and falls from the holier Chastity, that is Vowed to God, S. Augustine doubteth not but they be worse than adulteries. S. Cyprian calleth this case plain incest. S. Basile accounteth the marriages of veiled virgins to be void, of no force, and Sacrilegious.  
She that hath despoused herself to our Lord (saith S. Basile) is not free. For her husband is not dead, that she may marry to whom she list. And whiles her immortal husband liveth, she shall be called an Adulteress, which for lusts of the Flesh hath brought a mortal man into our lords Chamber.  
touching the second, 
Clerks bound to continency. Lib. 1. C. 11. Paphoutius Li. 1. Ca 23.  the Apostles forbid those, that come single to the clergy, to marry, except such as remain in the inferior Orders, and proceed not to the greater, as we find in their Canons: Can 25. Paphnutius, as Socrates, and Sozomenus record in their Ecclesiastical story, said at the Nicene Council, that it was an Old Tradition of the Church, that such as come to the Degree or Order of Priesthood single, should not marry wives. And this is that Holy Bishop Paphnutius, whom these evangelical Vowebreakers pretend to be their proctor for their unlawful Marriages.  
Read who list the Epistle of Siricius ad Himerium Tarraconensem, Cap. 7. 
This Pope Siricius shamefully abeseth the words of S. Paul and condemneth all Marriage.  the second Epistle of Innocentius to Victricius Bishop of Roen, Cap. 9 and his third Episitle to Exuperius B. of Tolouse, Cap. 1. And weighi●ge well these places, he shall perceive, that these Holy Popes forbade the Ministers of the Church the use of Wedlock by the same Reason, by which the Priests of Moses Law were forbidden to come within their own houses in the time, when their course came to serve in the Holy ministries. 
1. Corin. 7.  By the same reason also by which S. Paul requireth married folk for a time to forbear the use of their wives, that they might attend praying.  
The place of Chrysostom, 
Answer to Chrysostom's place. In. 1. Cap. ad Timo. Homil. 2.  alleged by this Defender, well considered, disproveth no part of the Catholic Doctrine in this behalf, but condemneth both the Doctrine, and common Practice of his companions these new fleshly Gospelers. His words be these upon the saying of S. Paul, that a Bishop ought to be without crime, the Husband of one wife. The Apostle (saith he) stoppeth the mouths of Heretics, which condemn marriage, she wing, that it is not an unclean thing, but so reverend that with the same a man may Ascend to the Holy throne or seat (he meaneth the state of a Bishop) and herewith he Chastiseth and restraineth the unchaste persons, not permitting them, who have twice married, to attain such a room. 
Twice married may not be bishops, and why.  For whereas he keepeth no benevolence toward his wife 
* Untruth. For M. harding foully mistaketh S. Chrysostom's meaning.  deceased, how can he be a good governor? yea what grievous accusations shall not he be subject unto daily? For ye all know right well, that albeit by the laws the second Marriages be permitted, yet that matter lieth open to many accusations. And therefore he would a Bishop to give no occasion (of evil) to those that be under him. He putteth begamie, 
* Untruth: standigne in false exposition.  that is to wit, marrying an other after the first or a Widow, to be lawful rather then commendable.  
So we see the impure Bigamy of our Holy Gospelers condemned both by Chrysostom, and S. Paul, of whom many being Priests, and (as they say) Bishops, at least presuming to occupy that Holy seat, for custody of their Chastity, after their former old yoke fellows decease, solace themselves with new Strompetes. 
Strompetes.  By a better name I would call them, If I wish I should not offend. For what woman so ever coupleth herself in such damnable yoking, how can she appear either to be honest, or to have care of her soul Health? As for the simple that be deceived by the importunity and craft of those lurdens, as they are not to be borne withal, so yet I think them to be pitied.  
But if this Defender Press us with Chrysostom, we answer, that though Chrysostom grant, that a married man may ascend to the holy seat, yet he saith not, that a man may descend from that Holy seat to the Bride Bed. 
After holy orders received, marriage never counted lawful among Catholics. Priest's married in England in the time of Anselmus.  For we deny utterly, that any man after that he hath received holy Orders, may marry. 
* Untruth: For it was undoubtedly counted lawful.  Neither can it be showed, that the marriage of such was ever accounted lawful in the Catholic Church. In deed we know that in Germany and in England and certain other Provinces at dissolute times, when the Discipline of the Church was shaken of, Priests have been married, as we read of the time in which Anselinus was Bishop of Cantorbury. But that disorder was always by 
* That is by allowinge of Concubines.  due correction of Bishops punished, and readressed.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, I grant, M. harding is like to find some good advantage, as having undoubtedly a great number of the Holy Fathers of his side. For Single life in the eyes of Politic wise men, for many causes seemeth worthy of favour. But, good Christian Reader, that thou mayst be the better able to see, and judge, how uprightly, & indifferently the Fathers have dealt herein, either in the advancing of Virginity, 
Marriage Condemned.  or else in the disgracinge of Lawful Matrimony, it may please thee to consider the form, and manner of their sayings.  
In deed Origen saith, 
Origen. in Epist. ad Roman. Cap. 12. Lib. 9 Hierony. in Malachi. Ca 2. Vos autem recessistis.  Potest aliquis de Castitate plus sapere, quàm oporteat sapere: A man may think more of Chastity, then is convenient. Likewise saith S. Jerome, Declinare ad Dextram, est abstinere à Cibis, quos Deus creavit, & Condemnare Matrimonium: & incurrere in illud, quod dictum est, Noli justus esse nimiùm: To turn to the right hand, is to abstain from meats, which God hath made, and to condemn Matrimony: and to false into the danger of the Words written by the Wiseman, Never be over just.  
first therefore Tertullian in the disprove of Matrimony saith thus: 
Eccle. 7. Tertull. In exhorta. ad Castitatem. Eodem loco.  Ecquid tibi videtur Stupri affine esse Matrimonium? Quoniam in illo deprehendo, quae stupro competunt: Dost not thou think, that Matrimony is like unto Fornication? Certainly I find the same thiinges in the One, that I find in the Other. Farther he saith: Ergo, inquies, iam & Primas, id est, unas Nuptias destruis. Nec immeritò: Quoniam & ipsae ex eo constant, quod est stuprum: Then, thou wilt say, thou condemnest also the first Marriage. Yea verily, and not without cause: For both Matrimony, and Fornication consist both of one thing. Chrysostom saith, Haec ipsa Coniunctio Maritalis malum est ante Deum, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homi. 1.  Non dico, Peccatum, sed malum: The very Copulation of Matrimony is an evil thing before God. I say not, It is Sin: but I say, It is an evil thing. And yet immediately after he saith, Si in Maritis, & Adulteris una est libido, quomodò potest fieri, ut una, eademque res pro dimidia part sit justitia, pro dimidia autem sit Peccatum? Aut enim tota est justitia, aut rota est Peccatum: Quia res una est: If the Married man, and the adulterer have one kind of pleasme, how can it be, that one and the self same thing, for the one half should be Righteousness, and for the other half should be Sin? Either it is all Sin, or all Righteousness: For the thing itself is One.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. adver. jovinian, Lib. 1. Ibidem.  Si bonum est, mulierem non tangere, malum est ergo tangere. Nihil enim Bono contrarium est, nisi Malum: If it be good for a man not to touch his wife, then is it evil to touch his wife. For there is nothing contrary to Good, but Evil. Again he saith, Quàm diu impleo Mariti officium, non impleo Christiani: As long, as I do the duty of a Husband, I do not the duty of a Christian man. Again, Non negamus Viduas, non negamus Maritatas Sanctas Mulieres inveniri. Sed quae Vxores esse desierint: 
Hieronym. Contra Heluidium.  quae in ipsa necessitate Coniugij Virginum imitentur castitatem: We deny not, but Widows, and married women may be Holy. But such as have left, and foresaken wives duties, and in the very necessity of Matrimony do countrefeite the Chastity, that is in Maidens.  
The like account we may make of sundry others: These few may suffice for this present.  
Now, thouchinge the marriage of Widowers, and Widows, a great many of the Ancient Fathers seem expressly, and utterly to condemn it.  
Athenagoras saith, 
Athenagoras in Apologia pro Christianis. Hieronym. ad Ceron●iam. Hieronym. contra jovinian. Lib. 1. In eod. Libr●.  Secundae Nuptiae decorum quoddam sunt Adulterium: The second Marriage (of Widowers, or Widows) is a fair kind of advowtry. And S. Jerome calleth Widows so married, harlots, and Naughty women, Malas, & Prostitutas: And saith, Digamia non nascitur in terra bona: second Marriage groweth not in good soil. Again he saith, Tolerabilius est, uni prostitutam esse, quàm multis: Moore tolerable it is, to be Concubine unto one, then unto many. Again, Vbi numerus maritorum est, ibi vir, qui propriè unus est, esse desijt: Where as there is a number of Husbands, there the husband, that in proper speech is but one, is no Husband. Likewise again, Non damno Digamos. Etiam Scortatorem recipio Poenitentem. Quicquid aequaliter licet, aequa lance pensandum est: I condemn not Widowers, or Widows, that have married again. No, 
second Marriage.  I refuse not the Fornicatoure upon his repentance. 
Bishops and Priests married.  What so ever is equally lawful, must be weighed in One balance.  
Nazianzenus saith, 
Nazian. In dictum evang. Cum perfecisset jesus. Origen. in Lucam. Homil. 19 Hieronym. De Scriptor. Eccle. Sozomen. Lib. 1. Cap. 11. Hilarius. Nicephor. Li. 11. Cap. 19 Ruffinus, Lib. 2. Cap. 9 Nazianzen. In Laudem Patris: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Prosper. Euseb. li. 6. ca 42. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Euseb. li. 5. ca 25. Novel. Constitu. 3. § finali: E Graeco. Ignat. ad Philadelphien. Clemens Stromat. 3 Euseb. li 3. ca 30 Origen in Epist. ad Roman. Ca 1. Lib. 1. Ambros. in 2. Corin. 11. Clemens Stroma. Lib. 7. Hieronym. Aduer. jovinian. Lib. 1. Distin. 37. Legaxt. Dist. 56. Osius.  Hic sermo videtur mihi reijcere Secundas nuptias, Si enim Duo sunt Christi, Duo item sunt mariti, & Duae uxotes: This saying seemeth to condemn second Marriage. For if there be Two Christ's, than one there Two Husbands, and Two Wives. Origen saith, Nunc & Secundae, & Tertiae, & Quartae nuptiae repetuntur: & non ignoramus, quòd tale coniugium eijciet nos de Regno Dei: Now the second, and third, and fourth Marriage is received. And we know, that such Marriage shall cast us out of the kingdom of God.  
By these few examples we may see, It was hard for these Holy Learned Fathers, in so large Amplifications of praising, or Dispraisinge, to hold measure. Yet all those vehement words, and Amplifications notwithstanding, partly the same, partly other the like Holy, and Learned Fathers, both used Marriage themselves in their own persons, and also otherwise wrote, and spoke thereof with great reverence.  
Tertullian, as S. Jerome witnesseth, was a Married Priest. Spiridion the Bishop of Cyprus, sometime famous in the Council of Nice, was married, and had Children. So was S. Hilary the Bishop of Poit●rs, as appeareth by his Epistle to his Daughter Abra.  
So was Gregory S. Basiles brother the Bishop of Nyssa. So was Gregory the Bishop of Nazianzum, Father unto Gregory Nazianzene, as appeareth by Ruffinus. Yet was he nevertheless a Faithful Servant, and a Steward of the Mysteries of God: A man of Spiritual desires: The God of Pharaoh: the Pillar, and Buttress of the Church: and the star of the world. For in such wise his own Son Gregory Nazianzene reporteth of him. Such a one was he, his Wife, and Family notwithstanding. So was Prosper of Aquitania the Bishop of Rhegium, as it appeareth by his Epigram written unto his wife: Mearum Comes irremota rerum.  
So was the Holy Father Cheremon the Bishop of Nilus: Who, as Eusebius writeth, was sent into banishment with his Wife. So Polycrates being likewise a Bishop, sometime said, that seven of his Fathers, or Ancestors had been Bishops. The Greek word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Ruffinus translateth it, Patres. justinianus the Emperor seemeth the more to esteem Epiphanius the Bishop of Constantinople, for that his Father, and other his Ancestors had been Priests, and Bishops.  
Ignatius S. john the Evangelists Scholar saith, Peter, and other the Apostles of Christ were married men. So writeth Clemens Alexandrinus: So writeth Eusebius. Origen saith, That S. Paul, and his Wife were called to the Faith, both at one time. S. Ambrose saith, Omnes Apostoli, excepto johann, & Paulo, uxores habuerunt: All the Apostles had wives, only john, and Paul excepted. Clemens Alexandrinus saith, Perfecti Christiani Edunt, Bibunt, contrahunt Matrimonium: They that be perfit Christian men, do Eat, and Drink, and contract Matrimony. S. Jerome writing against jovinian, saith thus, Quasi non hodiè quoque plurimi Sacerdotes habeant Matrimonia: As though now a days very many Priests were not Married. And therefore he saith, as he is alleged by Gratian, Legant Episcopi, & Presbyteri, qui Filios suos saecularibus literis erudiunt: Let Bishops, and Priests read these things, that bring up their Children in worldly learning, (and not in the Scriptures of God.)  
Pope Damasus showeth us, that a great number of Bishops of Rome were priests Sons: As Pope Syluerius: Pope Deusdedit: Pope Adrianus. 2: Pope john. 15: Pope Felix. 3: Pope Hosius: Pope Agapetus: Pope Gelasius: Pope Bonifacius: 
Bishop's Married.  Pope john 10: Pope Theodorus. And concludeth thus, Complures etiam alij inveniuntur, qui de Sacerdotibus nati Apostolicae Sedi Praefuerunt: Many others beside there are found, that being Priests Sons ruled the apostolic See of Rome. 
Aeneas Silvius De gestis Concil. Basihen. Lib. 2.  Pope Pius saith, A married man, having his wife alive may be chosen Pope. His words be these: Cur enim disputant Doctòres, an Electus in Papam uxori suae debitum solvere teneatur, etc. For wherefore do the canonists move this doubt, Whether a man being chosen Pope be bound to yield marriage duty to his wife, unless a married man may be chosen to that room? 
Polydorus in Historia Anglor. Lib. 6. Anno. Dom. 970. Polydorus De Inuentoribus rer. Lib. 5. An. Dom. 1100. Fabian, Pag. 293.  Polydorus Vergilius saith, that the restraint of Priests Marriage was first attempted in England about the year of Our Lord Neenehundred three score and ten: and that the same was afterward concluded in the west Church about the year of Our Lord a thousand and a hundred, and never before.  
Fabian saith, that Bishops, and Priests lived a thousand years together with their wives, no law being to the contrary.  
These two Principles being thus laid, the one of immoderate, and extraordinary speeches of the Holy Fathers, the other of the continual, and Ordinary Practice of the Church, we may now be the better able to consider the Substance of M. hardings reasons.  
first of all, his Objection of Vows nothing toucheth the clergy of England. For it is known, and Confessed, that the Priests of England were never Votaries.  
Yet for further answer, we grant, it is reason, and convenient, that who so hath made a Vow unto God, should keep his promise. Cyrillus saith, Si Castitatem Promiserit, 
cyril. in Leviticum Lib. 3.  & servare non poterit, pronuntier Peccatum suum: If he have promised, or Vowed Chastity, and cannot keep it, let him pronounce, and confess his sin.  
How be it, touching Virginity, or Chastity, we say, It standeth not in our Choice, 
Matthae. 19 justinus Apologia. 2.  or Vow, but in the singular gift of God. Christ himself saith, All men take not this Word: but they, unto whom it is geeuen. justinus Martyr saith, Multi castraverunt se propter Regnum Coelorum. Verùm hoc non cuius datum est: Many have ghelded themselves for the Kingdom of Heaven. But this thing is not geeven to all men. 
32. q. 1. Integritas. Hieronym. in. Matthae. Ca 19  S. Ambrose saith, Sola Virginitas est, quae suaderi potest: imperari non potest: Only Virginity is a thing, that may be counseled: but commanded it may not be. So S. Jerome, unde infert Dominus, Qui potest capere, capiat: ut unusquisque consideret vires suas: utrùm possit Virginalia, & pudicitiae praecepta implere. pierce enim Castitas blande est, & quemlibea ad se alliciens. Setd considerandae sunt vires: ut, qui potest capere, capiat. Our Lord addeth, He that can take, let him take: That every man may consider his own strength, whether he be able to accomplish the Laws of Virginity, and Chastity. For Chastity of itself is fair, and pleasant, and able to alluere any man unto itself. But we must weigh our ability: That he may take it, that can take it.  
Hereof the ancient Father Origen began to complain so long ago in his time: 
Origen. in Matthae. Tracta. 24.  Non solùm, quae docent, non faciunt, sed etiam crudeliter, & sine misericordia iniungunt alijs maiora virtute ipsorum, non habentes rationem Virium uniuscuiusque: ut, qui prohibent nubere, & ab eo, quod expedit, ad immoderatam munditiem compellunt: Not only they do not, that they teach, but also crueily, and without mercy they command others, to do, that they be not able, not considering, or weighing each man's strength. Such be they, that forbid men to marry: and from that thing, that is lawful, drive, and force men to an immoderate kind of Cleanness. S. Jerome saith, 
Gift of Chastity.  Si quis consideret Virginem suam, 
Hieronym. Aduersus jovinian. Lib. 1.  id est, Carnem suam, 
vows  lascivire, & ebullire in libidinem, nec refraenare se potest, duplex illi incumbit necessitas, aut capiendae coniugis, aut ruendi: If any man consider that his own Virgin, that is to say, his own Flesh, groweth proud, and boileth unto lust, and cannot stay it, there is laid upon him a double necessity, either to take a wife, or to fall.  
In this case S. Cyril saith, 
cyril. in Leviticum, Lib 16.  Oportet compati, & commetiri doctrinam pro virium qualitate: & huiusmodi, qui non possunt capere Sermonem de Castitate, concedere nuptias: We must have consideration of men, and measure our doctrine according to every man's ability: and unto such men, as cannot take the word of Chastity, we ought to grant Marriage.  
If M. harding will Reply▪ that this Counsel may take place in all others, but not in them, that have Vowed, or Promised the contrary, let him understand his own rule, 
22. Quae. 4. In malis.  written in the Pope's own Decrees: In malis promissis rescind fidem: In turpi Voto muta decretum. Quod incautè vovisti, ne facias. Impia est Promissio, quae sc●lere impletur: In an evil promise break thy Faith: In an unhonest Vow change thy purpose. That thou haste unadvisedly vowed, see thou do it not. It is an evil promiss, that is kept with wickedness.  
S. Cyprian having occasion to write of certain Maids, 
Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 11.  that had vowed Virginity, and lived in disorder, saith thus: Quòd si perseverare nolunt, vel non possunt, melius est, ut nubant, quàm ut in ignem delicijs suis cadant. Certè nullum Fratribus, aut Sororibus scundalum faciant: If they either cannot, or will not contrinewe, better it is for them to marry, then to fall into the fire (of Helle) with their pleasures. At the least, let them breed no slander to their Brothers, or Sisters.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Bono Coniugali, Dist. 27. Quidam.  Quidam nubentes post votum, asserunt Adulteros esse. Ego autem dico vobis, quod graviter peccant, qui tales dividunt: Some men there be, that say, They be adulterers, that marry after that they have made a Vow. But I tell you, that they Sin grievously, that put such asunder.  
Epiphanius likewise saith, 
Epiphan. contra Apostolic. Lib 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Melius est, unum habere Peccatum, quàm multa. Melius est cadentem à stadio apertè sibi uxorem asciscere secundum Leges, etc. Et à Virginitate longo tempore agere Poenitentiam, etc. Et non quotidiè occultis iaculis vuluerari: Better it is, to have one Sin, than many Sins. Better it is, for a man falling from his course, openly to take unto him a wife according to the Law, etc. And a long time to repent himself of the breach of his Virginity, etc. And not to be wounded with privy dortes every day.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. ad Virginem Demetriadem.  Sanctum Virginum Propofitum, & Coelestis, Angelorumque familiae Gloriam quarundam non bene se agentium nomen infamat. Quibus apertè dicendum est, ut aut nubant, si se non possunt continere: aut contineant, si nolunt nubere: The name of certain Virgins not well bejhaving themselves, defameth, and shameth the Holy purpose of Virgins, and the Glory of the Heavenly, and Angelical P●n●lie. Whom we must plainly charge, that either they Marry, if they cannot Contain: or that they Contain, if they will not marry.  
To like purpose S. Augustine saith: 
August. De Sancta Virginitate, Cap. 34.  Multas earum revocat à nubendo, non amor praeclati propositi, sed aperti dedecotis timor, veniens & ipse à Superbia: qua formidatur, hominibus magis displicere, quàm Deo. Nubere nolunt: & ideò non nubunt, quia impunè non possunt: quae meliùs nuberent, quàm urerentur, id est, quàm occulta flamma concupiscentiae in ipsa conscientia vastarentur: quas poenitet Professionis, & piget Confessionis: Many of them are kept from Marriage, not for love of their goodly purpose of Virginity, but for fear of open shame, which shame also proceedeth of Pride: for that they are more afraid to displease Man▪ then God. They will not marry: and therefore they marry not, because they cannot without rebuke, Yet better were it for them to marry, then to burn, that is to say, then with the flame of their Concupiscence in their own Conscience to be wasted. They are soary of their Profession: And yet it grieveth them to Confess. etc. 
Vows.   
It is not sufficient to say, 
Mark 6.  I have Vowed. Herode Vowed john Baptistes head: 
Actor. 23.  The jews Vowed S. Paul's death: Hubaldus, as it is noted by Gratian in the Decrees, 
22. Quae. 4. Inter coetera.  made a Vow, that he would never help his own Mother, or Brethren, were their need never so great.  
Alphonsus de Castro, 
Alphonsus Philippica. 19  one of M. hardings greatest Doctors, saith thus: Si quis Voverit, & continere non possit, & omnia expertus, nihil promoverit, ego illi author essem, non ut proprio Consilio, sed ut authoritate Pontificis saluti suae consulat per Matrimonium: If any man have Vowed, and Cannot contain, and having assayed all means, yet be never the near, I would advise him, that he should provide for the safety of his Soul by Marriage: And yet not of his own Counsel, but by licence, and authority of the Pope.  
Likewise Thomas of Aquine saith, 
Thomas 22. q. 88 Arti. 10.  Potest contingere, quòd in aliquo casu sit, vel simpliciter malum, vel inutile, vel Maioris boni impeditiwm. Et ideo necesse est, quòd determinetur, in tali casu, Votum non esse seruandum: It may happen, that in some case a Vow may be, either utterly ill, or unprofitable, or an hindrance unto some other good thing of more weight. And therefore it must of necessity be determined, that in such a case a Vow ought not to be kept. Therefore it was thus decreed in the Council of Toledo: 
Concil. Toletan. 8. Can. 2.  Non est seruandum Sacramentum, quod malè, & incautè promittitur: A Vow il, and unadvisedly promised, ought not to be kept.  
here, M. harding, ye cry out in your inordinate heat, fleshly Gospelers: evangelical Vowebreakers: Impure Bigamy: Filthy railing rabble: Lordaines: Strumpettes: & I wot not, what: as if this were the only way, to win the Victory. Unto this kind of eloquence I will make you none other answer, then that Demetrius sometime made unto Lysimachus: Scortum apud nos modestiùs vivit, quàm apud vos Penelope: One of these, whom it liketh you, to call Strumpettes, liveth more soberly amongst us, then doth amongst you your Chaste Penelope.  
It appeareth by S. Augustine, M. harding, that your error is Ancient, and began long ago. For he saith, that even then in his time there were somme, that maineteined the same. But he answered them then, as we do you now, They spoke fond, and unadvisedly: and understood not, what they said. His words be these, 
August. De Bono Viduitatis, Cap. 10.  Qui dicunt, talium Nuptias non esse Nuptias, sed potiùs Adulteria, mihi non videntur satis acutè, ac diligenter considerare, quid dicant: They that say, The Marriage of such men, or women, (as have Vowed Chastity) is no Marriage, but rather advowtry, seem unto me not to consider discreetly, and wisely, what they say. And again, Fit per hanc minùs consideratam opinionem, 
In eod. Capite.  ut cùm volunt eas separatas reddere Continentiae, faciant Maritos earum Adulteros Veros, cùm suis Vxoribus vivis, alteras duxerint: It cometh to pass by this Unadvised Opinion, that whereas they will remove these weemen, that so have Vowed, from their Husbands, and force them to continue in their Single Life, they make the Husbands of them adulterers in deed, in case they marry again, their own Wives being still alive.  
Thus therefore, M. harding, you may imagine, S. Augustine saith unto you, as he did unto them: Ye speak fondly, and unadvisedly, and understand not, what ye speak.  
And yet one of your Companions there telleth us, 
Dorman fol. 16.  that he is undoubtedly the devils Minister, that will say, as S. Augustine saith, that the Marriage of such persons is true, and very Marriage. Thus by the judgement of your late Lovanian clergy, S. Augustine is become the Minister of the Devil.  
But M. harding hath further to say, that S. Augustine calleth this kind of marriage worse than advowtry: An other calleth it incest: & an other Sacrilege. That the Ancient Fathers have thus written, it is true, & not denied. How be it, 
worse than advowtry.  good Reader, as I have partly showed before, these, and other like words have proceeded, more of a zeal, and heat of mind, then of profound consideration, and judgement of the cause. Neither may we always strain such saicinges to the uttermost. For whereas S. Augustine saith, Such Marriage is worse, than advowtry, he saith nevertheless immediately after in the same place, It is true, and very Marriage in deed before God, and Man, and no advowtry. His words be these: 
August. De Bono Viduitatis, Ca 9  Non quòd ipsae Nuptiae vel talium damnandae iudicentur. Damnatur Propositi fraus: Damnatur fracta Voti Fides: etc. Damnantur tales, non quia Coniugalem Fidem posteriùs inierunt, sed quia Continentiae Primam Fidem irritam fecerunt: Not that the Marriage of such persons is to be blamed. The defraudinge of their purpose, and the breach of their Vow is blamed. Such are blamed, not for that they have entered into the Faith of Matrimony: but for that they have broken their first Faith, or promiss of continente Life. So likewise S. Augustine saith of a Woman, 
August. De Doctrina Christiana, Lib. 4. Ca 21.  that used to paint her face: Etsi impudica circa homines non sis, tamen corruptis, violatisque, quae Dei sunt, Peior Adultera detineris: Although thou be no evil woman, as touching men, yet thus colouring, and corrupting thy face, which thou haste of God, thou art worse than an Adulteress. Here, by way of comparison, and in heat of speech, S. Augustine saith. That painting of the face is worse than advowtry. 
Cyprian. De singularitate Clericorum.  In like sense S. Cyprian saith, Diabolo peior est, qui foeminarum aspectibus feritur: He that is stricken, or moved with the sight of Women, is worse than the Devil. Likewise again he saith, Multò gravior, & Peior est Moechi causa, 
Cyprian. Lib. 4. Epist. 2.  quàm Libellatici: An adulterers case is worse, then is the case of him, that hath betrayed the Faith.  
Such comparisons, as I have said, may not well be rack to all purposes: but must be taken so far forth only, as they were meant. Otherwise the same S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. De Singularitate Clericorum.  Peius est, quam moechari, Continentiam ducere criminosam: To live Vnchastely under the colour of Chaste life (as your clergy doth) is worse than advowtry. Here, M. harding, S. Cyprian saith, that your unchaste Chastity, and coloured Vaunt of Virginity is worse than advowtry.  
So S. Ambrose, when he had said, If she have a mind to marry, she committeth advowtry, she is made the Handmaid of Death, He addeth further, as of a greater evil, 
Ambros. Ad Virginem Lapsam, Cap 5.  Si hoc ita est, quid de illa dicendum est, quae occulta, & fortiva turpitudine constupratur, & fingit, se esse, quod non est? Bis Adultera est: This being so, what then shall we say of her, that is defiled with secret, and privy filthiness: and feigneth herself to be, that in deed she is not? She is twice an Adulteress. Here S. Ambrose calleth your painted Virginity Double advowtry. So S. Chrysostom, Virginitas ista cum Viris plùs ab omnibus arguitur, 
Chrysost. to. 5. Quòd Regulares Foeminae cum Viris cohabitent.  quàm stuprum ipsum: This Virginity of Weemen amongst men, is more reproved of all men, than Fornication itself.  
By these few we may the better understand the place, that M. harding hath here alleged, of S. Paul unto Timothee. 
1. Timot. 5.  When they wax wanton against Christ, they will marry, having damnation, because they have broken their first Faith. notwithstanding in deed S. Paul spoke these words, neither of Vows, nor of Vowebreakers: but of the Widows, that were appointed to attend upon the Old, and sick persons, and therefore were relieved, and found by the Church.  
But let us imagine, as M harding would have us, that S. Paul spoke all this of the breach of Vows. And let Prima Fides, The first Faith, be the Vow of Chastity. How be it in deed our first Faith is the Faith, that we promise in Baptism, 
Hierony. in Proc●●nto in Epist. ad Titum.  and none other. And so S. Jerome seemeth to take it. For thus he writeth, Non s●nt digni Fide, qui Primam Fidem irritam fecerunt: Marcionem loquor, & Basilidem: They be not worthy to be believed, that have forsaken their first Faith: I mean Martion, and Basilides. These two famous Heretics Martion, and Basilides, 
Vow annexed etc.  were not condemned for breaking any Vow of Chastity, but for refusing the Faith of Christ: which S. Jerome calleth, The first Faith.  
S. Paul maketh no mention of any Vow, but only rebuketh such light, & wavering Women, as being of long time found by the Charges of the Congregation, purposely to relive the sick, and the feeble, afterward foresooke both the Congregation, and Christ too, and became Heathens, and followed the Devil. For so S. Paul saith, Nonnullae iam deflexerunt post Satanam: Many such women are already gone after Satan. But if S. Paul spoke this of the breach of Vows, with what eyes then, M. harding, do you read his words? Or what advantage can you hope to find in such Authorities, as do so expressly cry against yourself? 
1. Timoth. 5.  S. Paul saith even there, in the same place, Vidua eligatur non minor annis sexaginta. juniores Viduas reijce. Volo iuniores Viduas nubere: liberos gignere: domum administrare: nullam occasionem dare Aduersario, ut habeat maledicendi causam: Let no Widow be chosen under threescore years of age. Refuse young widows. I will, that young widows be married: bring up their Children: oversee their house: and give no occasion to the adversary to speak ill.  
If these words of S. Paul must deeds be taken of Vows, and none otherwise, why do you so violently, contrary to S. Paul's commandment, either force, or suffer young Maids, and girls to receive these Vows? Why do ye not stay them until they be stricken in age, that they may be threescore years Old, before they Vow? It is no reason, ye should in one place claim by one Word, and break so many.  
You say, 
Fol. 79. b.  The Vow of Chastity is annexed unto Holy Orders by the Ancient Constitution of the Church, and by the Apostles of Christ. For trial of your truth herein, I beseech you, to consider these sew in steed of many.  
Your own allowed, 
26. q. 2. Sors.  and principal Doctor Gratian saith thus, Copula Sacerdotalis, vel consanguineorum, nec Legali, nec evangelica, nec Apostolica authoritate prohibetur: Priests marriage is not forbidden by any Authority, either of the Law of Moses, or of the Gospel, or of the Apostles.  
Clemens Alexandrinus saith, 
Clemens Stromat. Lib. 3.  Omnes Apostoli Epistolae, quae moderationem docent, & continentiam, cùm & de Matrimonio, & de Liberorum procreatione, & de domus administratione innumerabilia praecepta contineant, nunquam tamen honestum, moderatumque Matrimonium prohibuerunt: All the Epistles of the Apostle, which teach sobriety, and continente life, whereas they contain innumerable Precepts touching Matrimony, bringing up of Children, and government of House, yet they never forebade Honest, and sober Marriage.  
Cardinal Caictanus saith, 
Cardin. Caletan. in Quodlibetis Contra Lutherum.  Nec ratione, nec authoritate probari potest, quòd, absolutè loquendo, Sacerdos peccet contrahendo Matrimonium. Nam nec Ordo, in quantum Ordo, nec Ordo, in quantum Sacer, est impeditiws Matrimonij. Siquidem Sacerdotium non dirimit Matrimonium contractum, sive antè, sive pòst: seclusis omnibus Legibus Ecclesiasticis: stando tantùm ijs, quae habemus à Christo, & Apostolis: It cannot be proved, neither by reason, nor by Authority, speaking absolutely, that a Priest sinneth in marrieinge a wife. For neither the Order of Priesthood, in that it is Order, nor the same Order, in that it is Holy, is any hindrance to Matrimony. For Priesthood breaketh not Marriage, whether it be contracted before Priesthood, or afterward: setting all Ecclisiastical Laws apart, and standing only unto those things, that we have of Christ, and his Apostles.  
Abbate Panormitane saith, 
Panormitan. De Clericus Coniuga. Cùm Olim. Antonin. in Summa, Par. 3. Ti 1 Ca 21.  Continentia non est de Substantia Ordinis, nec de jure Divino: Single life is not of the substance of the Order of Priesthood, nor of the Law of God.  
Likewise Antoninus saith, Episcopatus ex Natura sua non habet opponi ad Matrimonium: The office, or Degree of a Bishop, of the Substance of Nature of it self is not contrary to Matrimony. 
Lets Prayer.  Hereby ye may easily see, M. harding, how true it is, that you say, The Vow of Chastity is annexed to Holy Orders, and that by the Apostles Ancient Constitution.  
But this Order, you say, was taken, for that, having the use of Wedlock we cannot Pray. And to that end ye allege the Authority of S. Paul: Where also ye might have alleged the names and sayings of sundry Fathers. 
Origen. in Numer. Homil. 7. Extra. De Probationib. In Glossa.  Origen saith, The Holy Ghost in time of Copulation forsaketh a man, yea although he were the Prophet of God. An other saith, Virginitas Sola potest animas hominum praesentare Deo: Only Virginity is able to present the Soul of man unto God. S. Jerome saith. Quotiescunque uxori debitum reddo, orare non possum: As often as I do my duty to my wife, I cannot Pray. And to this purpose Pope Siricius undiscreetly, & fondly abuseth the Holy Word of God. 
Hierony. Aduer. jovinian. Lib. 1. Inter Decreta Siricij, Cap 7. Rom. 8.  Thus he saith, Qui in Carne sunt, Deo placere non possunt: They that be in the Pleashe, cannot please God.  
These words seem very hard, & sound much to the derogation of God's Ordinance. And therefore Ignatius S. john's Scholare saith, Si quis Legitimam Commixtionem, & Filiorum procreationem Corruptionem, & Coinquinationem vocat, ille habet cohabitatorem Daemonem Apostatam: If any man call lawful Copulation, and Begeattinge of Children, 
Ignatius ad Philadelphien.  Corruption, and Filthiness, he hath the Devil that fell from God dwelling within him.  
In like manner say the Learned godly Bishops in the Council of Gangra: Si quis discernit Presbyterum Coniugatum, 
Council Gangrene. Cap. 4.  tanquam occasione nuptiarum, quòd offerre non debeat, & ab eius Oblatione abstinet, Anathema sit: If any man make difference of a Married Priest, as if he may not Minister the Oblation, (or Holy Communion) because of his Marriage, and abstaineth from his Oblation, accursed be he.  
Likewise it is written in the Council of Constantinople: 
Dist. 31. Quoniam.  Si quis praesumpserit contra Apostolicos Canones aliquos Presbyterorum, & Diaconorun privare à Contactu, & Communione legalis uxoris suae, Deponatur. Similiter & Presbyter, aut Diaconus, qui Religionis causa Vxorem suam expellit, excommunicetur: If any man, contrary to the Apostles Canons, presume to remove either Priest, or Deacon from the use, and Company of his lawful wife, let him be deprived. And in like manner let the priest, or Deacon be excommunicate, that putteth away his wife under the colour of Religion.  
As touching the place of S. Paul, 
1. Corin. 7.  Defraud not yourselves, One an Other, unless it be of consent for a season, that ye may attend unto fasting, and Prayer. He speaketh not this of that kind of Prayer, that is commonly, & daily used of all the faithful, as well Married, as Unmarried, but only of the General, & Solemn Prayer of the whole Congregation, which then, as in time of Persecution, and fear of enemies, was kept only in the night: and all the whole multitude of the faithful was charged to be present at the same. At which times it was necessary, that both the man, and the wife should leave the one the others company, and resort to Prayer.  
So it is written in the Prophet joel, 
joel. 2.  Blow up the Trump in Zion: Proclaim a solemn Fast: Call together a Congregation of the People. Let the Breedegroome leave his bed: Let the Spouse come from her Chamber. Let the Priests, the Ministers of God, weep between the Entire, and the Altar: And let them say, O Lord spare thy people, and give not over thine Inheritance unto Confusion. Of the like kind of General, and Solemn Prayer: 
Tertullian. ad Vxorem. Lib. 2.  Tertullian saith thus, Quis Solennibus Paschae abnoctantem Vxorem securus sustinebit? What man (being an Heathen,) can without mistrust suffer his Wife (being a Christian Woman) to be away from him at the Solemnity of the Easter Prayer?  
Of such Solemn, and Seldom meetings S. Paul speaketh: and not of the Daily, Usual, and Common Prayers of all Christians.  
Otherwise, 
Paphnutius.  touching the Purity, and Holiness of Married people, S. Augustine saith, Quòd Paulus ait, 
August. De Bono Coniugali. Li. 1. Cap. 11.  Quae innupta est, cogitat ea, quae sunt Dni, ut sit sancta & Corpore, & Spiritu, non sic accipiendum est, ut putemus, non esse Sanctam Corpore Christianam Coniugem Castam. Omnibus quip Fidelibus dictum est, Nescitis, quoniam Corpora vestra templum sunt Spiritus Sancti? Sancta sunt etiam Corpora Coniugatorum, fidem sibi, & Domino seruantium: Whereas S. Paul saith, She that is Unmarried, thinketh of the things, that pertain unto the Lord, that she may be Holy both in Body, and in Spirit, it may not so be taken, as though we should think, a Christian wife living Chastely with her Husband, is not Holy in Body. For it is generally said unto all faithful, Know ye not, that your Bodies be the Temple of the Holy Ghost? Therefore if the Man, and Wife keep their Faith both between themselves, and to the Lord, their Bodies are Holy.  
But, These evangelical Vowbreakers, saith M. harding, pretend Paphnutius to be their proctor. Whether he be Our proctor, or no, it forceth not greatly, notwithstanding it is plain, He was then the Only proctor for the Truth, and that against the General Consent of all the whole Council besides. And although he were but One man alone, yet the whole Council gave place unto him. Sozomenus saith, 
Sozomen. Lib. 1. Cap. 23.  Synodus laudavit sententiam Paphnutij, & nihil ex hac part sancivit: Sed hoc in uniuscuiusque Voluntate, sine ulla Necessitate reliquit: The Council commended Paphnutius judgement, and, touching this matter of Marriage, made no Decree at all: but left it to each man's own Will, without any force of Necessity.  
Of Our side thus much Paphnutius saith, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Marriage is Honourable: And the Company of Man, and Wife is (not filthiness, as these men seem to say, but) Cleanness and Chastity.  
But, M. harding, if the same Holy Father Paphnutius weigh so much of your side, as you pretend, wherefore then doth One of your Companions of Louvain so lightly, & so disdainfully control that whole Story, with the utter discredit, and condemnation of the Writers? For thus hath he not doubted to publish his judgement therein to all the world: 
Copus Dialog● 1. Pagi. 154.  Mihi, nescio quomodo, in dubium venit fides huius Historiae de Paphnutio. Sunt enim, quae suspicionem important, eam esse Arianorum, aut Impudicorum hominum Commentum. Tota enim haec res à Socrate pendet, & Sozomeno: quorum alter Nouatianus fuit: alter Theodorum Mopsuestensem à quinta Synodo damnatum magnis laudibus extulit: I know not how, this Story of Paphnutius seemeth to me to be of doubtful credit. For there be matters, that make me to suspect, that it is but a vain forged tale, either of the Arian Heretics, or of some other filthy persons. The whole matter hangeth of Socrates, and Sozomenus: Of which two, the one was a Novatian Heretic: The other highly commendeth Theodorus of Mopsuesta, being condemned by the fifth Council.  
Thus your Fellows make this whole Story to be but a vain Fable: and the Authors, and Writers thereof, Socrates, and Sozomenus, to be Heretics, novatians, Arians, Vnhoneste, and Shameless persons. And therefore, I trow, ye will not say, they are your Proctors.  
whereas S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. in Epist. ad Titum Homil. 2.  Marriage is so reverend a thing, that a man may therewith ascend into the Holy Throne, and be made a Bishop, notwithstanding he have a wife: and that S. Paul suffereth not them, that have twice married, to attain such a room, By these words, saith M. harding, Chrysostom condemneth the impure Bigamy of Our Holy Gospelers. Again he saith, If this Defender press us with Chrysostom, we answer, that, although Chrysostom grant, that a Married man may ascend to the Holy seat, yet he saith not, that a man may descend from that Holy seat to the Bridebedde. For we deny utterly, that any man after that he hath received Holy Orders may marry. Neither can it be showed, that the Marriage of such was ever accounted lawful in the Catholic Church.  
I doubt not, 
Husband of One wife.  good Reader, but it shall easily appear, that M. harding in either of these two parts was foully deceived. For first Chrysostom, as it is plain by his words, 
Timon 1  which M. harding in his translation hath purposely falsified, expoundeth these Words of S. Paul, The Husband of One wife, not of a man, that never had but one wife in all his time, but of a man, that hath but one wife at one time. If M. harding shall think, this Exposition to be strange, and unlikely, let him remember, that Chrysostom himself thereof writeth thus: 
Chrysost. in Epist. 1. ad Timotheum Homil. 10.  unius Vxoris virum. Non hoc veluti sanciens dicit, quasi non liceat absque Vxore Episcopum fieri, sed eius rei modum constituens. judaeis quip licitum erat, etiam Secundo Matrimonio iungi, & Duas itidem Simul habere Vxores: The Husband of One Wife: S. Paul writeth not this, as making a Law, as if it were not lawful for a man to be made a Bishop without a wife: but he appointeth an order in that behalf. For it was lawful for the Jews to be coupled in the second Matrimony, and to have two wives at one time.  
In like sort saith S. Jerome, 
Hieronym. in Epist. ad Titum. Cap. 1.  Quidam de hoc loco ita sentiunt: judaicae, inquiunt, Consuetudinis fuit, vel binas uxores habere, vel plures. Et hoc nunc volunt esse Praeceptum, ne is, qui Episcopus eligendus est, uno tempore Duas Pariter Vxores habeat: touching this place some men think thus: By the Custom of the Jews it was lawful for a man, to have Two wives, or more at once. And this they take to be the Apostles Commandment, that he, that is to be chosen a Bishop, have not two wives, 
Hieronym. in Epist. 1. ad Timothe. Cap. 3.  or more together at one time. Again he saith, Diaconi sint unius uxoris viri: Non, ut si non habuerint, ducant: Sed ne Duas habeant: Let the Deacons be the Husbands of One wife: not that they should needs marry a wife, if they have none: but that they should not have two wives together. 
Catharinus contra Errores Caietani, Errore 99  Likewise saith Cardinal Caietane, Apostolus Episcopis permittit unam Vxorem, Coeteris plures: The Apostle suffereth a Bishop to have One Wife: Others he suffereth to have more.  
And to this purpose Isidorus seemeth to say, Castimoniam non Violati Corporis perpetuò observare studeant: 
Dist. 23. His igitur.  aut certè unius Matrimonij vinculo foederentur: Let them study to keep and continue the Chastity of their Body undefiled: or else, let them be coupled with the band of One Marriage.  
Of such a one, Pope Leo wrote sometime unto the Bishops of Mauritania, 
Leo ad Episcopos Mauritaniae.  Sicut ad nos relatum est, Duarum simul est Maritus Vxorum: As we are informed, he is at one time the Husband of two wives. And therefore he addeth his judgement of him: Privandum honore decernimus: We think him meet to be deprived of his promotion.  
Of this kind of second Marriage Chrysostom speaketh, I mean of having two Wives alive together: And not of marrieinge the second wife after the death of the Former. 
31. Quae. 1. Hac ratione.  And therefore he saith, Secundam quidem accipere, secundum Praeceptum Apostoli licitum est: Secundum autem Veritatis rationem Verè Fornicatio est. Sed cùm▪ permittente Deo, Publicè, & licenter permittitur, fit Honesta Fornicatio: To take the second wife (while the first is alive) according to the Apostles commandment, it is lawful: But by the Judgement of the Truth in deed it is Fornication. But while as by God's permission it is openly, and lawfully suffered, the Fornication is made Honest. This last Clause the Gloze there expoundeth thus: Fornicatio cum ea, quam permisit Moses post repudiatam assumi: Fornication, I mean, with her, whom Moses suffered to be taken to wife after the Divorce of the first.  
Thus therefore S. Chrysostom saith, that such a man, as had Two wives together at one time, or was Divorced from One wife, and had married an other, might not be chosen to be a Bishop. 
Tertullian. De Monogamia.  For otherwise, Tertullian saith unto the Bishops of the Catholic Church: Apud vos Episcopi sunt Digami: There be Bishops among you (he meaneth among the Catholics) that have married two wives, the one after the death of the other.  
If all this will not suffice, 
Marriage in Holy Orders.  I refer me self to Chrysostom's own omes' Words. Thus he writeth: S. Paul restraineth unchaste persons, not permitting them, that have married two wives, to be Chosen to the government of the Church. His reasons be these, 
Chrysos. in Epist. ad Tit. Homil. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  Nam qui uxori, quae decessit (à se) benevolentiam nullam seruasse deprehenditur, quo pacto potest ille esse bonus Praeceptor Ecclesiae? Imò quibus criminibus non subijcitur in dies? Nostis enim, quòd, etsi per Leges Secundae nuptiae permittuntur, tamen ea res accusationibus multis patet: For he that is found, to have borne no good will unto his wife, (not that is dead, but) that is gone from him, how can he be a meet Master for the Church of God? Nai rather to what quarrels, and accusations (by mean of these two Wives) shall he not be subject every day? For you know, although by the Law the Marriage of the second Wife (after the Divorce of the first) be suffered, yet the matter lieth open to many offences.  
It appeareth, saith Chrysostom, that he bore no good will towards his Former Wife, not, that now is dead, but that is divorced, and so departed from him. And therefore oftentimes grow many accusations, and griefs, between the Wives, the Children, the Friends, and others: for parting of goods: for restoaringe of dowers, and other like quarrels. For to have spoken of good will, or affection towards the Former Wife, being dead, it had been impertinent, and to no purpose.  
Thus much, toouchinge Chrysostom's judgement upon these Words of S. Paul, The Husband of One Wife. notwithstanding I deny not, but certain other Ancient, and Learned Fathers have taken it otherwise.  
last of all M. harding unwares falleth into the same Negative Divinity, that he so often, and so much abhorreth. For thus he saith, We deny utterly, that any man, after that he hath received Holy Orders, may Marry. Neither can it be showed, that the Marriage of such was ever accounted lawful in the Catholic Church. It this tale be true. then be all the Greek Priests Votaries, as well, as the Latins. But it is noted upon the Decrees, 
Dist. 31. quoniam. In Margin.  Graeci continentiam non promittunt, vel Tacitè, vel Expressè: The Greeks make no promiss of continente, or Single Life, neither Secretly, nor Expressly. And in the Council holden at Ancyra it is concluded thus, Diaconi, 
Conci. Ancyran. Can. 9  quicunque ordinantur, si in ipsa Ordinatione protestati sunt, & dixerunt, velle se Coniugio Copulari, quia sic manner non possunt, Hi si postmodum Vxores duxerint, in Ministerio maneant: Proptereà quòd Episcopus illis licentiam dederit: Deacons as many, as be ordered, if at the time of receiving Orders, they made Protestation, and said, that they would Marry, for that they find not themselves able so to continue without Marriage, if they afterward Marry, let them continue in the ministery: for as much as the Bishop hath given them licence. M. harding, I trow, will not deny, but Deaconship is one of the Holy Orders. Yet Deacons at the time of their Consecration making Protestation solemnly before the Bishop, were licensed by this Council to marry at any time afterward: and the same Marriage, contrary to M. hardings position, was evermore in the Catholic Church accounted lawful.  
So saith Pope Stevin, 
Dist. 31. Aliter.  Graecorum Sacerdotes, Diaconi aut Subdiaconi Matrimonio Copulantur: The Greek Priests, Deacons, or Subdeacons are coupled in Matrimony. 
Gloss. Dist. 31. Aliter.  Upon which words the Gloze noteth thus, Multi ex hac litera dixerunt, quòd Orientales possunt contrahere in Sacris Ordinibus: Many have said upon occasion of this text. that the Priests of the east Church (contrary to that M harding so certainly here assureth us) may Marry, being within Holy Orders.  
And of the Priests of the west Church Cardinal Caietane saith, 
Catharinus Contra Error. Caietani, Errore. 103.  Papa potest dispensare cum Sacerdote Occidentalis Ecclesiae, ut Vxorem ducat, nulla existent causa Publicae Vtilitatis: The Pope may dispense with a priest of the west Church, to Marry a Wife, although there be no manner cause of Common Profit.  
Athanasius saith, 
Athanasius ad Dracontium.  Multi quoque ex Episcopis Matrimonia non inierunt: Monachi contrà Parentes liberorum facti sunt: Many of the Bishops (he saith not all, but Many) have not Married. (By which words he giveth us to understand, that Some have Married.) Contrariwise, Monks have become Fathers of Children.  
Cassiodorus writeth thus, 
Cassiodo. Lib. 6. Cap. 14.  In illo tempore ferunt Martyrio Vitam finisse Eupsychium Caesariensem (Episcopum) ducta nuper Vxore: dum adhuc quasi Sponsus esse videretur: At that time they say, Eupsychius the Bishop of Caesaria died in martyrdom, having Married a Wife a little before, being as yet in manner a new married man.  
Likewise M. harding might have found it noted in his own Gloze, Dicunt, quòd olim Sacerdotes poterant contrahere, 
Dist. 84. Cum in Praeterito, in Gloss.  ante Siricium: They say, that in Old times, before Pope Siricius (which was about four hundred years after Christ) it was lawful for Priests to marry.  
But we shall have occasion to speak hereof more hereafter. In the mean season, good Christian Reader, by these few, as by a taste, thou mayst easily judge, how true it is, that M. harding telleth thee, that Marriage in them, that had received Holy Orders, was never thought lawful in the Catholic Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 2.  
And, as Sozomenus saith of Spiridion, and as Nazianzene saith of his own Father, we say, that a good and diligent Bishop doth serve in the ministery never the worse, for that he is Married, but rather the better, and with more ableness to do good.  

M. harding.  
Were it not, that the weight of these matters required an upright, and plain dealing, for civilities sake, I could be content sometimes to spare you, and where ye make manifest lies, to use a softer word, and term them fittens. But now if I tell you that you use your accustomed Figure Pseudologia, which is lying in plain English, I trust you will bear with my plainness: amend your own fault, and consider the Power of Truth, that causeth me to be so bold with you. This I 
* M. harding is assured, before he know.  am sure of, that neither Sozomenus, nor Gregory Nazienzene, nor Eusebius Li. 10. Cap. 5 as you have caused your books, both Latin and English, to be noted in the Margin, where ye mistake Eusebius for Rufinus: 
* An unadvised Untruth. Read the Answer.  Nor Nazianzene either in Monodia, as you note also in the Margin, 
Sozomenus, Gregory Nazianzene, Eusebius, belied by the Author of the Apology.  nor in the funeral Oration that he made of his Father, hath any such saying, as ye report of them. For how could they say, that a Bishop serveth in his ministery never the worse, but rather the better, and with more ableness to do good, for that he is Married, the Scripture being so plain to the contrary? What, were ye they were either so ignorant, or so forgetful, or so much inclined to promote your Carnal Doctrine of priests Marriages, as to say so, notwithstanding that S. Paul writeth to the Corinthians? saith he not of them that be Married, 
S Paul writeth thus, not of Priests, and Bishops, but of all other Christian men.  that such shall have tribulation of the flesh? Sayeth he not, He that is without a Wife, careth for the things of our Lord how he may please God? Of him that hath a Wife, saith he not, that he careth forth things that be the worlds, how he may please his wife, and is divided? Finally saith he not, I tell you this thing for your profit, not to tangle you in a snare, but for that, which is honest, and comely unto you, and that which may give you readiness to pray to God without let? Wherefore recant for shame that fowl error, that a Bishop serveth the better in his ministery, and is the more able to do good for that he is Married.  
Such men, 
M. hardings Modesty.  such Doctrine: fleshly men, fleshly Doctrine.  
Now therefore see you not, how great is your impudency, in that you lie yourself, and Father such a fowl lie upon sozomenus, 
Li. 1. Ca 11.  and that light of the world in his time Gregory Nazianzene? The words of Sozomenus be these: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. that is to say, Spiridion was a Husbandman, having wife and Children, and yet for all that he was never the worse about God's service. Of this place we grant, 
Never the worse.  ye may say with Sozomenus, that Spiridion served God never the worry, for that he was Married. But how, and whereof gather ye, that he served God the better, and was more able to do good because of his Marriage? Spiridion obtained that Privilege through 
* Untruth. For Chrysostom maketh the case General.  especial Grace by his exceeding virtue, which is granted to few. And the Privileges of a few make not a Law for all in general, ye know, as Nazianzene saith.  
Furthermore if the words of Sozomenus, 
The place of Sozomenus alleged by the Defenders maket utterly against them. Nazianzenes' words returned upon the Defender.  that ye build your carnal Doctrine upon, be well examined, ye shall find, that he maketh more against you, then with you. For signifying that he had Wife and Children, he addeth, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Yet for all that he was never the worse about God's service. This revocation or exception negatiué (yet for all that etc.) implieth a confession affirmative of the contrary.  
Neither maketh the place of Gregory Nazianzene any whit for you more, than this of Sozomenus doth whose words be these after the translation of Raphael Volaterranus varyinge much from the Greek: 
* An error. M harding taketh one place for an other.  Hic Basilij Pater Basilius item appellatus, etsi matrimonio se vinxit, ita tamen in eo vixit, ut nihil propterea ad Perfectam Virtutem, ac Philosophiam consequendam impediretur. Basiles Father, who was named also Basile, although he put himself in bonds of Matrimony, yet he lived so herein, as he was letted no whit from the atteininge of perfit Virtue and Holy knowledge. Were not Marriage a let and hindrance to perfection requisite in a Bishop, 
Nothing hi●●● dere.  this Learned man could not rightly have said, Ita tamen in eo vixit, etc. Yet for all that he lived so, etc.  
Right so it is easi to put him from the hold he taketh of Chrysostom, by Chrysostom himself. For least any man should think, 
Timoth. 1.  Whereas S. Paul saith, A Bishop ought to be the Husband of one Wife, that the same order continueth still in the Church, thereto he saith in his second Homily De Patientia job: 
Read the Answer.  Non ea ratione, quòd id nunc in Ecclesia obseruetur. Oportet enim omni prorsus castitate Sacerdotem ornatum esse. S. Paul (saith he) required this, not in consideration, that the same be now observed in the Church. For it behoveth a Bishop to be garnished with all manner a Chastity.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here cometh M. harding in a loft with, Io Triumph, as having beaten down all the world under his feet: And, as being already in sure possession of the Victory, he crieth out, Impudencies, Lewd Lies, foul Faults, and pretty Fittens: And full terribly chargeth us, like a Conqueror, to render ourselves, and to recant for shame. This new courage is suddenly blown upon him, for that he thinketh, we have intruded upon his office, and, as he saith, have corrupted, and falsified and Holy Fathers. But it were a worthy matter to know, wherein. Forsooth we say, by the report of Sozomenus, and Gregorius Nazianzenus, that Spiridion, and Gregory Father unto Nazianzene, being both Married Bishops, notwithstanding their Marriage, Were never the worse able to do their Ecclesiastical offices, but rather the better.  
Here M. harding of himself, and freely confesseth, these Holy Fathers were never the worse able to do their offices. For so much the words of Sozomenus import, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. But that they were the better able to do their offices, because of their Wives, that he denieth utterly: and herein, he saith, we are corrupters, and Falsifiers of the Fathers. And thus the whole difference, that is bitwéene M. harding, and us, touching this matter, standeth only in these two poor words, Rather the better, and, Never the worse. Now, 
Marriage helpeth.  gentle Reader, that thou mayst be the better able to judge between us, I beseech thee indifferently to weigh these words.  
Gregory Nazianzene hereof, 
Nazianzen in ●pitaphto Patris.  that is, of the help, that his Father, being the Bishop of Nazianzum had by his Wife, writeth thus: Illa, quae dara est Adamo, etc. Eva, that was given to Adam for a Helper, for as much, as it was not good for Man to be alone, in steed of a Helper became his Enemy. It followeth, Meo autem Patri Mater mea data illi à Deo, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  non tantùmm Adiutrix facta est, id enim minùs esset mirum, sed etiam Dux, & Princeps, Verbo, Factoque inducens illum ad res optimas. Et alijs quidem in rebus quamuis optimum esset, subditam esse Viro, propter iura Coniugij, tamen in Pietate non verebatur, Seipsam illi Magistram exhibere: My Mother being geeven to my Father of God, became not only his Helper, for that had been no great wonder, but also was his Leader, and Captain, both by Word, and by deed traiinge him unto the best. And, albeit in other things it were best for her to be subject unto her husband for the Right of Marriage, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  yet in Religion, and Godliness, she doubted not to become his Mistress.  
These words, M. harding, be plain, and clear, and without fitton. Gregarie Nazianzene saith, that his own Mother was unto his Father the Bishop of Nazianzum, a a Helper, and a Director, both by Word, and deed, to lead him to the best: and that in all other things being his Inferior, yet in Religion and Godliness she was his Mistress. And yet must all these words, so open, to plain, so clear, be drowned with your simple distinction, of Rather the better, and never the worse? May we not now allow you with favour, to take all these, that ye call Fittens, Lies, Corruptions, and Falsifieinges, home again unto yourself?  
If you never read these things before, it is no great marvel. Yowe must remember, All Truth may not be measured by your Reading.  
In deed, Marriage, as also all other like outward things, of itself is neither good, 
1 Cor. 7.  nor ill: but as it is used. S. Paul saith, If the Virgin marry, she finneth not. He that Marrieth out his Virgin, finneth not. Therefore Gregory Nazianzene saith, Neutrum horum, 
Nazianzen. in Epitaphio Gorgoniae: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  nec Matrimonium, nec Coelebs vita, prorsus aut Deo nos Mundóue conciliat: aut à Deo, aut à Mundo alienat: ut alterum natura sua omninò fugiendum sit, alterum absolutè laudandum. Antmus est, qui & Virginitati, & Nuptijs rectè imperat: Neither of these two, nor Matrimony, nor Single life, doth either join us to God, or to the World: or withdraw us from God, or from the world: that the One ought to be refused, and the other absolutely, and of itself ought to be praised. It is the Mind, that ruleth both Marriage, and Virginity.  
I grant, there be more occasions of let, and hindrance in Matrimony, then in Virginity, & specially in times of Persecution. The natural affection of Wife, and Children often mollifieth, and melteth the heart, and causeth a man to look backward. S. Ambrose saith, Bona Vincula nuptiatum: Sed tamen Vincula. Etsi vincula, tamen Vincula Charitatis: Bonum Coniugium: Sed tamen à jugo tractum. Good are the Bands of Matrimony: Yet are they Bands. And although they be Bands, yet are they Bands of Charity. Coniugium (Wedlock) is good, yet it taketh his name of the Yoke.  
This is that tribulation of the Flesh, 
Ambrose, De Virgini. Lib. 3.  that S. Paul speaketh of.  
And, all be it these Cares withdraw, and oppress the Mind, as I have said, and oftentimes be great lets to Godly purposes: yet, as it well appeareth by these examples of Gregory Nazianzene, and Spiridion, in a Godly man they hinder nothing. Neither was this any such Singular Privilege, as M. harding imagineth, granted only to these two Bishops, Gregory, and Spiri●ion, & to none other.  
S. Chrysostom saith generally of all men, Quamuis Nuptiae plurimum difficultatis in se habeant, 
Chryso●tom in 1. Epist. ad Tim. Homil. 10.  ita tamen assumi possunt, ut perfectiori Vitae impedimento non sint. notwithstanding Marriage have much trouble in itself, yet may it so be taken (and used,) that it shallbe no hindrance to perfit life. Again he saith, Ne excuses te propter Nuptias Dominus tuus Nuptijs interfuit, & Nuptias cohonestavit. 
Chrysost Contra judaeos & Gentales, & Haereticos: To. 3. Pag. 363.  Et tu Nuptias arguis? Et dicis Nuptias esse impedimentum ad Pietatem? Nullum enim ad Pietatem est obstaculum. Vis cognoscere, quòd nihil obsit, habere Vxorem, & Liberos? Moses nónne Vxorem habuit, & Liberos? Vide & Petrum Columnam Ecclesiae, quòd & ipse Vxorem habuit. Ne accuses Nuptias: Excuse not thee self by thy Marriage. Thy Lord was at the Marriage Feast, and honoured Marriage with his Presence. And yet dost thou blame Marriage? And saist thou, that Marriage is an hindrance unto Godliness? I tell thee, Marriage is no manner hindrance unto Godliness? Wilt thou know, that it hindereth not to have Wife, and Children? Had not Moses Wife, and Children? Behold Peter, a Pillar of the Church: He had a Wife. Therefore find no fault with Marriage.  
Again, 
Chryso. in Esaian, In illa Verba, Vidi Dominum. Tom. 1. Homil. 4.  writing upon these Words of the Prophet isaiah, Vidi Dominum, etc. He saith thus, Quis ista lo●uitur? Esaias ille spectator Coelestium Seraphim, qui cum Coniugio commercium habuit: nec tamen extinxit Gratiam: Who speaketh these Words? Esaias the Beholder of the Celestial Seraphims: who notwithstanding he had company with his Wife, yet he quenched not the Grace of God.  
Again, Filium habebat, & Vxorem: ut intelligas, non esse malas Nuptias: sed malam esse Scortationem: isaiah had a Son, and a Wife: that thou mayst understand, that Marriage is not ill, but that Pornication is ill. And again, Num obsiabat Matrimonium? Adiutrix tibi data est Vxor, non Insidiatrix: What? Did Marriage hinder thee? No. Thy Wife is geeven thee to be thy helper, and not to deceive thee.  
Likewise saith S. Augustine, 
August. in quaestionibus Novi, & Veter. Testamen. Quae. 127.  Sanctissimus Samuel filios genuìt: non tamen ●ustitiae suae merita minuit. Zacharias Sacerdos Vir lustus in senectute sua genuit filium. Qua ergo ratione accusatur, quod minimè obesse probatur? Most Holy Samuel begat Children: and yet nothing abated the Merits of his righteousness. Zacharios' the Priest in his Old age begat a Child. Wherefore then is that thing accused, that is proved to do no manner hurt?  
Nicephorus writing of Gregory S. Basiles Brother, 
Nicephor. Li. 11. Cap. 19  the Bishop of Nyssa, saith thus, Quamuis haberet Coniugem, alijs tamen in rebus non cessit Fratri: Although he had a Wife, yet in other things he was Nothing Inferior (to S. Basile) his Brother.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Bono Coniugali. ca 11  as he is alleged before, Sancta sunt etiam Corpora Coniugatorum. Fidem sibi & Domino seruantium: Where as Married people keep their Faith both to themselves, and to God, their Bodies be Holy.  
Likewise Nazianzene, 
Nazianzen. in 〈◊〉 Gorgoniae.  Etiam illa, quae nupsit, & de ijs, quae sunt Mariti, & de ijs, quae sunt Domini, Solicita est: ut sit Sancta, & Corpore, & Spiritu: Eu●n she, that is Married, is careful both for the things, that pertain to her Husband, and also for the things, that pertain to God, that she may be Holy both in Body, and Spirit. 
Ambros in. 1. Cor. 7.  Likewise S. Ambrose, Videmus Virgines de Saeculo cogitare: & Matrimonio iunctos Dominicis studere operibus: We see both Virgins careful for the world: and Married men Careful for the works of the Lord.  
There be troubles in Marriage: It cannot be denied. But so be there also troubles in Single Life: Specially to them, that fear the judgements of God, and have not the gift of Chastity. 
Chrysost in Genes Homil. 21.  But Chrysostom saith, Matrimonium non solùm nihil nobis obstat ad Philosophandum Deo, si voluerimus esse sobrij, sed & magnam adfert Consolationem: Comprimit enim insanum Naturae impetum: nec turbari sint, quasi mare: Sed efficit ut seapha foeliciter in portum appellat. Et ideo Deus Consolationem hanc tribuit humano generi: Marriage not only hindereth nothing towards the knowledge and Service of God, If we: will be sober, but also bringeth us great Comfort. For it oppresseth the raging fury of Nature, and suffereth us not to be dashed, and toast, as the waves of the Sea: but causeth that our ship may luckily arrive into the haven. And for that cause hath God given this Comfort unto mankind. Therefore Gregory Nazianzene saith, 
Nazianzen in Funere Gorgoniae.  Nuptiae sunt laudabiles propter eam, quae in Nuptijs est, animi tranquillitatem: Marriage is worthy of Praise, for the quietness, and contentation of mind, that is in Marriage.  
To be short, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Clemens Alexandrinus saith, Habet, ut Castitas, ita etiam Matrimonium, propria munera, & Ministeria, quae ad Dominum pertinent: As well Matrimony, as Chastity, hath either of them their peculiar offices perteinge unto God.  
And Chrysostom saith, Ne quis praetexat Vxorem, vel Liberos, etc. Haec excusatio, hic praetextus, Diaboli sunt insidiae: Let noman make his excuse by his Wife, or Children, etc. This Excuse, and this pretence is the craft, and deceitfulness of the Devil. Thus, M. harding, to conclude with Chrysostom's words, the Ground, and foundation of your Doctrine in this behalf, is the craft, and deceitfulness of the Devil.  
These things considered, I doubt not, but of your courtesy, ye will take back your Fittens unto yourself. The Conclusion and sum of your whole talk is this: Spiridion served God never the worse, not withstanding he had a Wife: And Marriage is no let, or hindrance to perfit Godliness.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 3.  
Further we say, that the same Law, which by constraint taketh away this liberty from men, and compelleth them against there wills, to live single, is the Doctrine of devils, as Paul saith: and, that ever since the time of this Law, a wonderful uncleanness of life, and manners in God's Ministers, and sundry horrible enormities have followed, as the Bishop of Augusta, as Faber, as Abbas Panormitanus, as Latomus, as the Tripartite Work, which is annexed to the Second Tome of the Councils, and other champions of the Pope's band, yea and as the matter itself, and all Histories do confess.  
For it was rightly said by Pius the second, Bishop of Rome, that he saw many causes, why wives should be taken away from Priests: but that he saw many more, and more weighty causes, why they ought to be restored to them again.  

M. harding.  
There is 
* manifest Untruth. For all Priests are restrained from Marriage: And Priests be men.  no Law in the Church, that by constraint taketh away from men liberty to Marie. For S. Paul's words be plain, 
1. Cor. 7. Voluntary Vow imbarreth liberty of the contrary.  If thou take a wife, thou sinnest not. And likewise, If a Virgin marry, she sinneth not. But if any Persons have of their own will, and devotion Vowed to God chastity, the same have imbarred themselves of this general liberty, and by their Voluntary Promise, have bound themselves never to Marie. And in such, not only Marriage itself, but also a will to Marie is damnable, as S. Paul saith of Widows, which have Vowed to live chaste, that they have their damnation (not for that they Marry, but) for that they will marry. If the Gospelers allege against this Doctrine the words of S. Paul, If a Virgin marry, she sinneth not: We answer with Chrysostom, and other Fathers, that a Virgin by a Vow of Chastity dedicated to God, if she marry, 
1. Cor. 7. Ad Virginem Lapsam ca 5.  doubtless she sinneth much, for that beside Christ she hath surmaried an adulterer. If they object. It is better to Marry then to burn: Let S. Ambrose answer: Who saith, that this saying pertaineth to her, that hath not promised, to her that is not yet veiled. And by restraining them from Marriage, 
The Doctrine of Devils.  the Church useth no tyrannic: nor if it teach, that such aught to forbear Marriage, is that to be accounted the Doctrine of Devils, but of the Holy Ghost, whereby men are kept from wilful dammation. To forbid Marriage wholly, universally, and altogether, that is the Doctrine of Devils. But to judge Marriage for some state, and Order, of less convenience, than the Single Life, or after Vow of chastity made, to require perpetual continency, this is not the Doctrine of Devils. For S. Paul himself did both. If these Defenders will not admit this answer, and being loath to forsake their fleshly pleasure, pretend to be moved with the Authority of S. Paul, who calleth the forebiddinge of Marriage the Doctrine of Devils: I send them to S. Augustine for an answer in his thirteenthe Book, and Six the Chapter against Faustus the Maniche. Where for a sufficient solutton of their objection, they shall find these plain words: Ille prohibet, qui hoc malum esse dicit: non qui huic bono aliud melius anteponit. That is to sat, He forebiddethe (Marriage) which saith it is evil: not he, which preferreth an other better thing before this good thing.  
Now, that I may show in what time, and by what persons this Law of Single Life was ordained, for brevities sake I will content myself with witness of One only Council. Which is the second Council of Carthage, holden in the time of Valentinian and Theodosius the Emperors. Where we find, that this order was taken 
* Untruth. For these be the words of the Apostles Canons: Episcopus, aut Presbyter, aut Diaconus, Vxorem suam praetextu Religionis ne abijciat. Aut si abiecerit, à Communione segregetur. Canone. 5.  by the Apostles themselves, and that the Antiquity observed, and kept the same. The words of the council be these, Canone. 2.  
Aurelius Episcopus dixit, etc. Aurelius the Bishop said: Whereas in the Council before this, it was treated of the rule of continency and chastitiè, these three Degrees through their Consecrations be annexed to chastitte by a certain decree written, to wit, Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. Whom it is thought good, as it becometh the Holy Prelates, and Priests of God, and likewise levites, or such as attend upon Holy Sacraments, to be continent and chaste in every condition to th'intent they may simply obtain, that they pray to God for, that we keep and observe that, which 
* Untruth. Read the Answer. M. harding foully mistaketh the Council.  the Apostles have taught, and the antiquity hath kept. Lo Sir Defender.  
What if the Bishop of Augusta find fault with priests lives? (Which Augusta and which Bishop there ye mean, I know not, neither well can I know, except I saw your notebooke) what if the Abbot Panormitane, what if one Faber, and one Latomus, men of our time (I trow) and that zealous man which wrote the little tripartite treatise annexed to the Laterane Council. What so ever he was: what if all these (I say) moved with a zeal, and being desirous of the Clergies Reformation, lamentably complain of their lose life? what then?  
Get you fairer painted, and better filled boxes, than these be, or else shall ye all be taken for poor Potticartes.  
touching Pius, In Platina ye shall find these words, for one of that Pope's sayings, Sacerdo●ibus magna ratione sublatas nuptias, maiori restituendas videri. As much to say in English: that Marriage was taken from Priests with great reason, and that it seemed it were to be restored again with greater. This saying reporteth not, that wives were: taken a way from Priests, as you report, neither that wives ought to be restored to Priests again. 
* A sage exposition. What had this been to Pius meaning?  It speaketh only of Marriage, which as, before a man enter into Holy Orders, no Vow being made, is lawful: so by orders taken a Vow of chast●tie being solemnly made, is utterly unlawful. If this saying had made so much for your pretenced Marriage, as ye would men to believe, 
* Untruth. For if we had falsified the words, ye would not so simply have touched it.  ye would never have falsified it by such change of words. Whether is be more expedient, such as come to the clergy, to be required to lead the Single life, and to bind themselves thereto by Vows, or to enjoy the common liberty of Marriage, 
* Now at last, the Doctors stand i● doubt. ● Mira verò Mili ti quae placeant.  that we leave to the Church to discuss and order.  
If Pius saw many weightier causes, for Priests to have wives, then for their Single Life, as ye pretend he did: why did not he, or you in his steed show us, what and how substantial they be? If they be no better, than you and your fellows have uttered in your Sermons, and w●t●inges hitherto, they are not worthe●a Pipped nootte. This saying of Pius is well to be weighed and scanned.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Who so ever shall well consider the Fruits that have grown of this tree, 
Doctrine of Devils.  may easily judge, by whom it was planted. Certainly S. Paul, when he had given rules, touching the clergy, that Bishops, & Deacons should be the Husbands of One Wife, immediately afterward, in the same tenor, & course of Speech, saith thus: 
1. Tim. 4.  The Spirit saith plainly, that in later times, some shall depart from the 〈◊〉, giving ear unto lying Spirits, and to the Doctrine of Devils, uttering lies under Hypocrisy, having their Conscience burnt with a hot iron (and thereby made unsensible) Forebiddinge Marriage, etc.  
But M. harding saith, there is no Law in the Church, to restrain Marriage: and that Marriage is not now condemned by him, and other of that side, & thought unlawful universally in all men, (for that, he saith, was the Heresy of Valentinus, Martion, Montanus, and others) but only forbidden, and thought unlawful in a few. By this answer, M. Harding may seem to make himself somewhat better, than was Valentinus, and Martion, and other Old Heretics. But further to help him, and thoroughly to clear his Doctrine, it will not serve. It is a Common known rule in the Schools, Magis, & Minùs non mutant Specien. Verily, as he that killeth but a few, men, is called a Mankiller: Even so he, that Condemneth Marriage in a few, must likewise be called a Condemner of Marriage. Neither doth S. Paul, when he prophesieth hereof, say, that some should Condemn all kind of Marriage universally, in all manner of men: but only he saith, There shallbe some, that shall forbid Marriage.  
Neither did all Heretics Condemn Marriage in one sort. For some of them condemned it Generally, and thoroughly, and altogether: Some others of them Condemned it only in a few, even as M. harding, and his Fellows do. For thus S. Augustine writeth of the Heretics named the Manichées, Auditores qui appellantur apud eos, 
August. Epist. 74.  & Carnibus vescuntur, & agros colunt, &, si volverint, Vxores habent: Quorum nihil faciunt illi, qui vocantur Electi: They, that among them be called, Hearers, do both eat Pleashe, and till the ground, and Marry Wives too, if they list. But no such thing may they do, that be called Electi. The Auditores, or Hearers among the Manichées were as the lay people: The Electi, or Chosen, were as the clergy. These Heretics the Manichées Condemned Marriage, not generally in all sorts, and degrees of men: but only, as M. harding doth, in a few. Yet were they Heretics notwithstanding, and their Doctrine was the Doctrine of Devils.  
S. Augustine saith unto them, 
August. De Moribus Mantchae. Lib. 2. Cap. 13.  as he would also say unto M. harding: Non Concubitum, sed ut longè antè ab Apostolo dictum est, Verè Nuptias prohibetis: Ye forbid, not Copulation, (or Cocubines) But, even as the Apostle Prophesied long before, Verily, and in deed ye forbid Marriage: (Albeit it were but in a few).  
All this, M. harding, notwithstanding, that it may plainly appear, whoes Doctrine ye teach, 
Chrysost. in Opere Imperfecto, Hom●l. 1.  it shallbe good, and not form the purpose, briefly to disclose some part of it. And here, to pass over these words of Chrysostom, Haec ipsa Coniunctio Maritalis malum est ante Deum: 
Hierony. Aduersus jovintan. Lib. 1.  This very Copulation of Man and Wife is evil before God: And these of S. Jerome, Quàm diu impleo Mariti officium, non impleo officium Christiani: As long as I do the de wtie of a Husband, I do not the duty of a Christian: and other like sayings, and Authorities before alleged, Pope Innocentius in the Condemnation of Marriage saith thus: 
Dist 82. Proposuisti. Rom. 8. Tit. 1.  Qui in Carne sunt, Deo placere non possunt: They that be in the Flesh (that is to say, in Marriage) cannot please God And to this purpose he allegeth these words of S. Paul, To that Clean all things are Clean: But to the filthy, and Infidels (whereby the same Innocentius understandeth Married people) nothing is Clean, 
Dist 82. Pluri●●s.  But both their mind, and their Conscience is defiled. 
Copus Dialog. 1. Pag. 159. Graecos Solos in hac impudicit lae Scholà Magistros sequuntur.  Pope Siricius calleth Marriage, Virium, Luxuriam, Foedas Cupiditates: Vice, Lechery, end Filthy Lusts. One of your late English Doctors of Louvain saith, that the whole east Church, maintaining the lawful Marriage of Priests, evermore continued there from the Apostles time until this day, maintaineth, and continueth a School of Filthiness.  
Further you may remember, that this rule is written in a Book of your own Doctrine, 
Con●●t. Othonis. Licet ad profuga●●m. In Gloss.  and is given in secret, as a Special Lesson unto your clergy, Si non Castè, tamen cautè: If thou deal not Chastely, yet deal not Charily.  
From whence had you this Doctrine, M. harding? who set it first abroach? who taught it? who confirmed it? who allowed it? If ye can say, it is not the Doctrine of the Devil: Yet verily, I believe, ye cannot say, it is in any point like the Doctrine of God. 
Hierony. in Danielem. Cap. 11. 2. Tim. 3.  S. Jerome having occasion to speak of antichrist, saith thus: Simulabit Castiratem, ut plurimos decipiat: He shall make a counterfeit show of Chastity, that he may deceive many. Even so S. Paul saith, Habentes Speciem Pietatis: Virtutem autem eius abnegantes: Having a colour of Godliness: but the Power thereof denieing utterly.  
But, somewhat to relive yourself, ye allege these words of S. Augustine: Ille prohibet Matrimonium, 
August. Contra Eaust. li. 30. ca 〈◊〉.  Matrimonium, qui illud Malum esse dicit: non qui huic Bono aliud melius anteponit: He forebiddeth Marriage, that saith Marriage is Evil: and not he, that before this thing, being Good, setteth an other thing, that is Better. Here, M. harding, I beseech you of your indifferent judgement: He that useth your words, and saith, as you say, They that live in Matrimony, cannot please God: They be Filthy: They be Infidels: Unto them nothing is clean: Their whole Mind, and Conscience is defiled: He that saith, Matrimony is Vice, Lechery, and Filthy Pleasure, Saith he not, Matrimony is an evil thing? Thus you say: Thus you writ: These Words be apparent, and allowed in you Books: even in those Books, whereby ye would have us to Order, and to direct our Lives, & Manners. Briefly this is the Very Substance of your Doctrine in this behalf. Therefore even by S. Augustine's judgement, Your Doctrine is the Doctrine of Devils.  
And, whereas ye would seem, not utterly to condemn the state of Matrimony, but only to set Single Life before it, as a Better thing before a Good: it may please you to understand, that, notwithstanding a thing in itself be best, yet is it not therefore universally best for every Man. For, notwithstanding Scarlet be the fairest of all Colours, and the Face the fairest part of all the Body, yet, I reckon, M. harding, to make yourself fair, ye would not have your Face died in Scarlet.  
Single Life for many causes is the best: I grant. Yet is it not best for every body: but only for him, that hath the gift of Chastity, and can with quiet mind, & upright Conscience live Single. Otherwise Matrimony is much better. And therefore God hath left us indifferently free to both: that, who so ever cannot use the One, 
1. Cor. 7.  may choose the other. S. Paul saith, Volo Omnes esse sicut meipsum: I would every man would live Single, as I do. But he addeth withal a Special Proviso: unusquisque Proprium donum habet à Deo: alius autem sic: Every man hath his own gift of God: One this, an other that. And therefore he saith further. Although Single Life be the better state, Yet, who so ever is not continente, let him Marry. Better it is to Marry. then to burn. Although otherwise he weigh Single Life before Marriage, yet in this case, he saith, it is better to Marry, then to live Single.  
M. harding hereto replieth: They, that have Vowed, have lost this liberty: and by S. Ambrose, and S. Augustine's judgement may not Marry. Hereof I have partly spoken before: & partly shall have occasion offered to say more hereafter. In the mean season we are taught here by M. harding, to take S. Paul's Words by the top, and to turn them quite backwards: and thus to frame a New Rule of Life, 
The Apostles Doctrine.  and to say contrary to S. Paul, Melius est Vri, quàm Nubere: It is better, to burn in Concupiscence, then to Marry.  
Yet S. Augustine saith even of them, that have Vowed, as it is before alleged, Quae Nubere volunt, 
Augu. De Sancta Virginit. Ca 34.  & ideò non Nubunt, quia impunè non possant, Meliùs Nuberent. quàm urerentur, id est, quàm occulta flamma Concupiscentiae in ipsa Conscientia vastarentur: They that have a mind to Marry, and yet Marry not, because they cannot Marry without reproach, Better were it for them to Marry, then to burn, that is to say, then with the privy flame of their Coucupiscence to be wasted in their Conscience.  
Further M. harding saith, This Order of Single Life was taken by the Apostles themselves: And therefore, saith he, it is not the Devils, but the Apostles Doctrine. If this be true in deed, then is this matter thoroughly concluded. But where was this Order taken by the Apostles? By what Writing, by what Record, by what Tradition may it appear? Or how is it likely, that the Apostles, being Married men themselves, would force other men to live Single?  
I have already showed by Ignatius, 
Ambro. 2 Cor. 11.  by Clemens, by Eusebius, and by S. Ambrose, that the Apostles, S. john Only excepted, were all Married. Clemens saith. that Peter saw his own Wife carried by the Officers to suffer death for Christ's sake: 
Euseb. Li. 3. Ca 30 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Ignatius ad Philadelphien.  and cried unto her comfortably by her Name, O Wooman, Remember the Lord. Ignatius S. john's Disciple saithè, Opto Deo dignus inveniri, sicut Petrus, & Paulus, & reliqui Apostoli, qui Nuptijs fuerunt sociati, qui non libidinis causa, sed posteritatis surrogandae gratia Coniuges habuerunt: I wish to be found meet for God, as was Peter, and Paul, and the other Apostles that were Married: and not for pleasure, but for Posterities sake had wives.  
Chrysostom saith, 
Chryso. In Priorem ad Timoth. Homil. 10.  Cur non ait, Oportet Episcopum Angelum esse, nulli humanae perturbationi vitióue subiectum? Ne Ecclesiae negotia fructusque perirent. Idcircò moderatam Virtutem proposuit: non supremam illam, atque Coelestem: Why saith not S. Paul, A Bishop ought to be an Angel, subject neither to any worldly affection, nor to any Vice? lest the affairs, and fruits of the Church should perish, (being without a governor). Therefore he required of Bishops a moderate, and a reasonable kind of Virtue (willing them to be Husbands of One Wife) and not that other Virtue, so High, and so Heavenly: (that is to say, utterly to live unmarried.) Again he saith, 
Chrysost. in eadem Homil.  Idcircò ait, unius Vxoris Virum: Ne nimis in angustum rem eam concluderet, si exactissimam Virtutem experisset: idcireò moderatiori admonitione maluit uti: ne ex desperatione perfectae illius inveniendae Virtutis, Ecclesiae sine Episcopis essent: Therefore S. Paul saith, Let a Bishop be the Husband of One Wife: lest he should shut up the matter into too great a strait, if he had required that most perfit purity: therefore he would rather use a reasonable moderation, or mean (that a Bishop should be the Husband of One Wife): lest of despair of finding that excellency of Virtue (to live Unmarried) the Churches should be left without Bishops.  
S. Paul 
1. Cor. 7. 1. Tim. 3. Tit. 1. Leo Epist. 87.  saith, touching Virgins, I have no commandment of the Lord: Better it is to Marry, then to burn: Let a Bishop be the Husband of One Wife. Which last words Pope Leo expoundeth thus: Is Episcopus ordinetur, quem unius Vxoris Virum fuisse, aut esse Constiterit: Let him be Consecrate a Bishop, of whom it may well appear, that either he is, or hath been the Husband of One Wife.  
S. Ambrose expounding these words of S. Paul, 
Ambros. in 1. Cor. 7.  touching Virgins, I have no commandment of the Lord, saith thus, Si Doctor Gentium non habuit, habere quis potuit? If the Doctor of the Gentiles had no Commandment of the Lord, touching Virgins, what man else then could ever have it?  
among the Rules, which commonly are called thee Apostles Canons, it is written thus: Episcopus, aut Presbyter, aut Diaconus Vxorem svam praetextu Religionis ne abijciat. Aut si abiecerit, à Communione segregetur: &, si perseveret, deponatur: Let not either Bishop, or Priest, or Deacon put away his Wife under colour of Religion. Or if he so do, let him be put from the Communion (of the Faithful): And. if he so continue, let him be utterly deposed from his office.  
S. Jerome expounding these Words of S. Paul, Let every man remain in the vocation, 
Hierony. Contra jovinian. Lib. 1.  wherein he was called, saith thus, Ex hoc, habentibus Vxores ●ollit licentiam dimittendi eas: Hereby S. Paul forebiddeth Married men to put away their Wives.  
In the Sixth Council holden at Constantinople it is written thus: Antiquum sequentes Canonem Apostolicae diligentiae, 
Dist. 31. Quoniam.  & Constitutiones Sanctorum Virorum, Legales Nuptias Posthac valere volumus, nullo modo cum Vxoribus suis eorum connubia dissoluentes: Following the old Order of the Apostles diligence, and the Constitutions, and Laws of the Holy Fathers, fronhence forth we will, that the lawful Marriage (of Bishops, and Priests) shall stand in force, not in any wise dissoluinge the Wedlock, that they have with their wives. And herein, they say, they follow the Old Canon, or Order of the Apostles.  
Gratian saith, 
26. Quae. 2. Sor●.  as he is before alleged, Copula Sacerdotalis, nec Legali, nec evangelica, nec Apostolica Authoritate prohibetur: The Marriage of Priests is not forbidden by any Authority, either of the Law, or of the Gospel, or of the Apostles.  
Cardinal Caietane saith, 
Catharinus contra error. Caietani, Errore 112. Clemens stroma Lib. 3.  Dominus Discipulis suis nullum indixit Votum: Our Lord appointed unto his Disciples no manner of Vow.  
Clemens Alexandrinus saith, as it is said before, Epistolae Apostoli nusquam honestum, Moderatumque Matrimonium prohibuerunt: The Epistles of Paul the Apostle never forebade honest, and sober Marriage.  
All these things well considered, I beseech thee, gentle Reader, indifferently to weigh M. hardings words: and to demand of him, with what countenance he could thus tell thee, that the Order of Single Life was taken by the Apostles themselves, and therefore must be holden as the Apostles Doctrine.  
If he happen to tell thee, it is so written in the Council of Carthage, tell him again, he is deceived. I say, tell him, that the Apostles of Christ never, neither made any Law, nor gave any order for the Single Life of the Ministers. And therefore tell him hardly, he is deceived. He will say, The words of the Council be plain. Quod Apostoli docuerunt, 
Concil. Carthag. 2 Cap. 2.  & ipsa seruavit Antiquitas: Which thing the Apostles have taught, and the Antiquity itself hath observed. These words be plain in deed, if they were not perversely glossed. Therefore tell him again, he should better have learned, both the manner of the Apostles teaching, & also the scope, and reach of this Antiquity. Certainly thus much his own Gloze could have told him: Apostoli nihil instituerunt, 
Dist. 84. Cùm in Praeterito, in Glossa.  de non utendo Matrimonio iam contracto: The Apostle took no order, touching the not using of Matrimony already contracted.  
And whereas the Council saith, Apostoli docuerunt, The Apostles taught, The same Gloze saith, Apostoli docuerunt exemplo: non Institutione, vel Constitutione: The Apostles taught it by their Example: but not by appointemene, nor by commandment. Perhaps M. harding will say, The Apostles Example is sufficient. 
Clemens stroma. Lib. 7.  Thereto I will answer, as Clemens Alexandrinus sommetime answered certain of the Old Heretics in like case: Dicunt gloriosi isti iactactores, se imitari Dominum, qui Vxorem non duxit. Illis dicit Scriptura, Deus Superbis resistit: Humilibus autem that Gratiam: These glorious Bragger's say, they will follow the Example of our Lord, that Married no Wife. Unto them the Scripture saith, God withstandeth the Proud: and giveth Grace unto the humble. And to like purpose S. Ambrose saith, Praeceptum quidem Apostolus non habuit: at habuit Exemplum. In deed the Apostle S. Paul had no Commandment to give of Virginity: but Example he had.  
Again whereas the Council allegeth Antiquity, Quod ipsa Seruault Antiquitas, the same Gloze expoundeth it thus: A tempore Siricij Papae hic vocat Antiquitatem: By this word, Antiquity, the Council meaneth the time after Pope Siricius (Which was four hundred years after Christ). And again, as it is alleged before, Ante tempora Siricij Papae Sacerdotes poterant contrahere Matrimonium: Before the time of Pope siricius it was lawful for Priests to contract Matrimony.  
Such good luck M. harding hath to his Doctors, and Councils. By his own Gloze he hath lost four hundred yéeeres of his Antiquity.  
Panormitane after he had said, The Commandment of Single life is not of the Law of God, he added further, 
Extra, De Clericis Coniugatis. Cùm olim.  Quia aliâs Graeci peccarent: Non enim excusaret eos Consuetudo. Quia illa non valet contra Legem Dei: Otherwise the Grecians were offenders. For no Custom could excuse them. For as much as Custom prevaileth not against the Law of God.  
Now touching this Council of Carthage, notwithstanding it had been truly Construed, yet the Authority thereof must needs seem so much the less, for that it decreeth of set purpose quite contrary to the Council of Nice. For the Fathers in the Nicene Council durst nor to remove Priests, and 
Sozomen. Lib. 1. Cap. 23.  and Bishops from their Wives: for that it was written, Whom God hath joinned, let noman sunder. But these other Fathers in the Council of Carthage without any sticking, or doubting at the matter, only with one word, utterly removed them: and so by force, and violence, and contrary to the Commandment of Christ, sundered, & divided them, whom God had joined. Which thing, Holy Paphnutius saith, was not Lawful for man to do.  
touching Bishop Hulderichus, Panormitanus, La●omus, and jacobus Faber, and such others, as have spoken, or written in the behalf of priests Marriage, M. harding thinketh it sufficient for him to answer, What if they complain of the lose life of the clergy? What then? That is to say, What if the clergy live in professed shame, and open filthiness? What then? As if such Simple Authorities were worthy of none other answer.  
Yet was Hulderichus sommetime Bishop of Augusta in Germany, well-near six hundred years ago, & for his virtue, and Holiness was counted a Saint. Abbas Vrspergensis in his story writeth of him in this sort: 
Abbas Vrsperg. Anno 925. Pagina 214.  Hiltinus Augustanus Episcopus obijt: Cui Sanctus Vdalrichus (qui idem est Hulderichus) successit: Histine the Bishop of Augusta died: To whom succeeded Saint Hulderichus. Abbas Panormitanus was a famous canonist, in judgement Equal with any other.  
Faber, and Latomus both in our time were accounted Learned: and either of them a Special Champion of M. hardings side. Verily the worst, and vilest of all these is a great deal both sounder in judgement, and deeper in Learning, then either Amphilochius, whom M. harding so highly esteemeth: or Abdias, or Hippolytus, or Leontius: whom they have lately raked out of the dust: Or Clement of Rome, whom he so often calleth the Apostles Fellow.  
Neither did these writers only complain of the looseness of priests lives, as M. harding telleth us: But also for removing of Public shame, and slander out of the Church of God, wished, that the Liberty of Marriage might be restored: which thing M. harding so closely dissembleth.  
touching that Pope Pius was commonly wont to say, As Marriage was taken away from Priests upon great Considerations, even so now upon other greater considerations it were to be restored to them again, M. harding, after much other peerless talk, 
The fruits of Single Life.  saith thus: Why did not he, or you in his steed show us, what, and how Substantial considerations they be?  
Good Christian Reader, loath I am to disclose, and publish any thing, that may sound to the shame of any one man: much less, to the open shame of so great a number. But M. harding over heavily presseth us with his importunity, and requireth us upon our credit to show these causes. Therefore if the report hereof shall seem unpleasant, the fault is M. hardings: It is not mine. I will only show forth simply, & truly, that I find written in sundry, both of the Ancient learned Fathers, and also in others of his own side: Which nevertheless, had not M. harding been, might much better have been concealed.  
first of all, the Ancient Father Origen for his time, which was well-near fourteen hundred years ago, hereof complaineth thus: Non solùm, quae docent, 
Origen. in Marthae. Tracta. 24.  non faciunt, sed etiam crudeliter, & sine misericordia, non secundum aestimationem vitium uniuscuiusque, iniungunt: Vt, qui prohibent nubere, & ab eo, quod expedit, ad immoderatam munditiem compellunt. Alicante onera gravia, & faciunt homines cadere sub eyes. Et frequenter videmus, eos qui talia docent, contraria facere sermonibus suis. Castitatem docent: & Castitatem non servant: etc. Omnia faciunt propter personas hominum, & glorias vanas, ut videantur ab hominibus. Et plaerunque sunt tales, qui diligunt primos accubitus in convivijs, & salutationes in foro, & vocari ab hominibus Rabbi: Qui volunt vocari Episcopi, Presbyteri, Diaconi: Not only they do not, that they teach, but also cruelly, and without mercy they lay their Injunctions upon others, not considering each man's ability. Such be they, that forbid men to marry: and from that thing, that is lawful to be done, drive, and force men to an unreasonable Purity. They bind, and lay on heavy burdens, and cause men to fall under them. And oftentimes we see them, that teach such things, to do contrary to their own sayings. They teach Chastity: and yet keep not Chastity: etc. They do all things for the commendation of men, and vain glory, that they may be seen, and noted of the people. And commonly they be such, as love the highest places at Feasts, and banquets, and to be Saluted, 
Euseb li. 4 ca 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and Honoured in the Market places, and of the people to be called Rabbi: That will be called Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.  
At the very first attempt hereof, Dionysius the Bishop of Corinthe wrote thus unto Pinytus the Bishop of Gnosus, Noli grave illud onus necessariae Castitatis imponere Fratribus: Lay not that heavy burden of the necessity of Chaste life upon the Brethren.  
Neither was it for nothing, that S. Cyprian in his time wrote thus, Vt quid sibi adhibuit mulierem, 
Cypria. De Singularitate Clericorum.  qui ducere contempsit Vxorem? Peius est, quàm Moechari, continentiam ducere criminosam: Wherefore took he a woman unto him, that disdained to marry a wife? To live a continente life with reproach, is worse than advowtry.  
It is not for nothing, 
Epiphan. Contra Origenian. Haeresi. 42. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Chrysostom. to 5. Quòd Regulares Foeminae cum vi●is cohabitent.  that Epiphanius writeth, Repudiant Nuptias: at non Libidinem. In honore enim est apud illos, non Castitas, sed Hypocrisis: quam tamen appellari volunt Castitie? They refuse Marriage, but not lust, or pleasure. For they esteem, not Chastity, but Hypocrisy: And yet the same Hippocras they will have called Chastity.  
It is not for nothing, that Chrysostom writeth of the Vowed, or Chaste women in his time: Nuptias magis dicere beatas licet, etc. Posthac melius esset, ne Virgines quidem esse, etc. Perseverat adhuc nomen, & appellatio rei: at nego●ium totum in corpore sublatum est, etc. In delicijs magis viwnt, quàm mulieres in fornice, etc. Frequens, & quotidianus est concursus obstetricum ad Virginum domos: etc. Virginitas ista cum viris plùs ab omnibus arguitur, quàm stuprum ipsum: We may say, that Marriage is a great deal better (than such Virginity). Hereafter it were better, there were no Virgins at al. The na●e (of Virginity) continueth still: But Virginity itself in their body is quite gone. They live more in pleasure, than harlots in the stews. There is often, and daily running of Midwives to virgin's houses. This manner of Virginity of women amongst men, is more reproved of all men than Fornication itself.  
It is not for nothing, 
Sulpitius Severus Dialog. 3.  that Sulpitius Severus saith of S. Jerome, Hieronymus de familiaritatibus virginum, & Monachorum, & Clericorum, quàm vera, quàm fottia disputavit? unde a quibusdam, quos nominare nolo, dicitur non amari: How truly, and how stoutly hath S. Jerome written of the Familiarity, that these virgins have with Monks, and Priests? And therefore it is said, that of some men, whom I will not name, he is the less beloved.  
Neither is it for nothing, 
Saluianus De Providentia, Lib. 5. Ibidem.  that Saluianus saith of his time, which was about a thousand years ago, Sub specie Religionis vitijs Saecularibus mancipantur: Under the colour of Religion, and Holiness, they are made slones to worldly vices. And again, Nowm prorsus Conuersionis genus: Licita non faciunt: Illicita committunt: A very strange kind of Conversion: That they may do, they do not: And do, that they may not do.  
All these, and other like things were written long ago, in the old times, before the fruits of Single life were thoroughly known.  
But after that Pope Hildebrande by Cruelty, and Tyranny had fully established the matter, and brought it to perfection, Aventinus saith, Many godly learned men utterly foresooke the ministery, 
Aventinus in Hildebrando.  Et Falsi Prophetae, Falsi Apostoli, Falsi Sacerdotes emerserunt, qui simulata Religione populum deceperunt. Maxima pars sub honesto nomine Castimoniae Stupra, Incestus, Adulteria, passim, & impunè committunt: False Prophets, False Apostles, and False Priests sprang up: which under a countrefeite Religion deceived the people. The most part of them, under the honest name of Chastity, commit whoredom, advowtry, incest, commonly, and without punishment.  
S. bernard saith, 
Bernardus in Concilio Remensi.  Episcopi, & Sacerdotes huius temporis Castitatis Sanctimoniam, sine qua nemo videbit Deum, tam in cord, quàm in Corpore, quomodo ' student observare? Traditi in reprobum sensum, faciunt, quae non conveniunt. Quae enim in occulto fiunt ab Episcopis, turpe est dicere: The Bishops, and Priests of this time, how do they endeavour to keep either in heart, or in body the Holiness of Chastity, without which noman shall see God? They are given over into a reprobate mind, and do those things, that are not convenient. For it were shame to utter, what these Bishops do in secret.  
Again he saith, 
Bernard. De Conuersione, ad Clericos, Ca 29. In Opere Triparti. Li. 3. ca 7.  Abstinentes à Remedio Coniugali, posteà in omne flagitium effluunt: Absteininge from the remedy of Marriage, afterward they flow over into all kind of wickedness.  
He that wrote the little Book, called Opus Tripartitum, joined with the Council of Laterane, saith thus, Tanta immunditia luxuriae notoria est in multis partibus mundi, non solùm in Clericis, sed etiam in Sacerdotibus: imo, quod horribile est audire, in Praelatis Maioribus: etc. Such Notorious filthiness of Lechery there is in many parts of the World, not only in the inferior Clerks, but also in Priests: yea in the greater Prelates: which thing is horrible to be heard: etc.  
And in the Gloze upon the Constitutions Legantine of England it is written thus: 
De Concubinis Cleri. removendis. Licet ad profligandum. Paralipomena Vrspergen. Pag. 403.  Clerici huiusmodi Concubinas tenent Communiter, apparatu honesto, nomine appellationis Sororiae: Clerks commonly hold, and have such Concubines, in honest haviour, under the name of their Sisters.  
Nicolaus de Clavengijs, complaining hereof, saith thus: Capellani, & Canonici similes Episcopis, Indocti, Ebrij, Scortatores: The Chaplains, and Canons are like to the Bishops, Unlearned, Drunken, and fornicators.  
Robert Holcote saith, 
Rob. Holcot In Librum Sapientiae, Lectione. 182  Sacerdotes moderni sunt Daemones Incubi per luxuriam, & Sacerdotes Priapi, vel Beelphegor, & Angeli Abyssi: The Priests of our time by their Lechery, are like the Spirits called Incubi, the Priests of Priap●●, or Beelphegor, and the Angels of the pit of Helle.  
Hulderichus in Old times the Bishop of Augusta in Germany, 
Hulderichus Episcopus Augustan.  wrote sharply hereof against Pope Nicolas in this wise: Decreta tua super Clericorum continentia à discretione inveni aliena: Multos confilij tui assentatores hominibus, non Deo, sub falsa specie continentiae placere volentes, graviora vides committere: I have found, thy Decrees, touching the Single life of Priests, to be void of discretion. Thou seest, that many followers of thy counsel, willing under ● feigned colour of Continente life, rather to please Man, than God, commit heinous acts. In the end be concludeth thus, Qua nosti discretionis disciplina, Pharisaicam ab Ouili Dei extirpa Doctrinam: By such discipline of discretion, as you know best, root this Pharisaical Doctrine out of God's Fold.  
But for as much, 
Wo●phgangus Wissenburgius in praefatione in Antiologiam Papae.  as M. harding hath no skill in this Epistle of Hulderichus, he may understand, that his own Pope Pius, otherwise called Aeneas Silvius, maketh evident mention of the same.  
Further Mantuanus the Poet saith,  

Petriue domus polluta fluenti  
Marcescit luxu: Nulla hîc arcana revelo.  
Sanctus ager Scurris, venerabilis Ara Cynaedis  
Seruit: Honorandae Diuûm Ganymedibus Aedes.   
The matter hereof is such, as is not worthy to be Englished.  
But what pleasure can it be, to stand so long in so unsavoury a place? They themselves say thus, 
2. Quae. 7. Lator. In Glossa.  Fornicatio Simplex non est digna depositione: S●●ple Fornication (in a Priest) is no just cause of Deprivation. The cause thereof in an other Gloze is alleged thus, Quia pauci sine illo vitio inveniuntur: 
Dist. 81. Maximianus. In Glossa.  Because there be few Priests found without that fault.  
To be short, Polydorus Vergilius saith, Nullius delicti crimen maius Ordini dede●us, 
Polyd. Vergil. De Inuentorib. rer. Lib. 5. Ca 4.  plùs mali Religioni, plus doloris bonis attulit: No kind of crime ever brought either more shame to the Order of Priesthood: or more hindrance to Religion: or more grief to the Godly, than the life of Single Priests.  
These, these, M. harding, were the causes, that moved Pope Pius commonly to say, as it is before alleged: As Marriage upon good, and great considerations was taken from Priests, so now upon better, and greater considerations it were to be restored to them again. And therefore he saith in his discourse of the Council of Basile, 
Aeneas Syluiu● De Con. Basil● Lib. 2.  Fortasse non esset peius, Sacerdotes complures uxorari. Quoniam multi saluarentur in Sacerdotio Coniugato, qui nunc in sterili Presbyterio damnantur: Perhaps it were not woorste, that many Priests were Married. For many might be saved in Married Priesthood, which now in barren Priesthood are condemned. If the former of these two sayings be so doubtful, yet this later is plain, and clear, and void of doubt. In like sense, and sort he writeth upon good advise, 
Aeneas Silvius Epist. 321. ad johan. Fontem.  and deliberation to his friend: Quoniam huc ventum est, ut Legi Carnis resistere nequeas, meliùs est Nubere, quàm Vri: For as much as the matter is grown so far, that ye cannot withstand the Law of the Flesh, Better it is to Marry, then to burn.  
So saith Panormitane, 
Extra, De Clericis Coniugatis, Cùm olim.  Credo pro bono, & salute animarum, quòd esset salubre statutum, ut non valentes continere, possint contrahere. Quia experientia docente contrarius prorsus effectus sequitur ex illa Lege Continentiae: cùm hodiè non vivant spiritualiter, nec sint mundi: Sed maculentur illicito coitu, cum ipsorum gravissimo peccato: Vbi cum propria uxore esset Castitas. unde deberet Ecclesia facere sicut bonus medicus: ut, si medicina, experientia docente, potitis officiat, quàm profit, eam tollat. Et utinam idem esset in omnibus Constitutionibus positivis: I believe, it were a good Law, and for the wealth; and safety of Souls, that such, as cannot live Chaste, may contract Matrimony. For we learn by experience, that of the Law of Continente, or Single Life the contrary effect hath followed. For as much as now a days they live not spiritually, nor be clean, and chaste: but with their great Sin are defiled with unlawful Copulation: whereas with their own wives they should live Chastely. Therefore the Church ought to do, as the skilful Physician useth to do: Who, if he see by experience, that his Medicine hurteth rather, then doth good, taketh it clean away. And would God the same way were taken with all positive Constitutions.  
So saith Durandus, 
Durandus, De modo Celebrandi Concilium, Titul. 46.  utile esset, ut in Concilio Matrimonium Sacerdotibus romittatur. Frustrà enim hactenus coacti sunt ad Castitatem: It were good, that in a Council priests Marriage were set at liberty: For hitherto it hath been in vain, to force them to Chastity.  
So saith Martinus Peresius, 
Martinus Peresius.  Multis pijs visum est, ut Leges de Coelibatu tollerentur propter scandala: Many godly men have thought it good, that the Laws of Single Life should be abolished, for avoiding the offence of the people.  
M. harding will say, The Priest hath Vowed, and must keep his Vow. But Pope Pius, as it is said before, gave counsel of Marriage unto a Priest, that had made a Vow.  
It appeareth right well, both by that hath been already alleged, & also by the common experience, & practise of the world, that a Vow importeth not always a Chaste life. 
Optatus Contra Parmenianum Donatist. Lib. 6. Hierony in Hieremi. lib. 2. Ca 7. Ambro. De Virginib. Lib. 1.  Optatus Milevitanus saith, In Mirella signum est voluntatis: non Castitatis auxilium: In the apparel there is a token of the Will: not a help towards Chastity.  
S. Jerome saith, Quid prodest Corporis pudicitia, animo constuprato? When the Mind, or Harte is deflowered, what availeth the Chastity of the Body?  
S. Ambrose saith, Non imperari potest Virginitas, sed optari. Name, quae supra nos sunt, in Voto magis sunt, quàm in Magisterio: We may wish for Virginity: but command it we cannot. For the things, that be above us, and out of our power, are rather of desire, then of Commandment.  
Hereof Epiphanius maketh this Conclusion: 
Epiphani. Lib. 2. Haeresi. 41.  Vt ne confundantur apud homines, occultè scortantur: & sub Solitudinis, aut continentiae specie libidinem exercent. Melius est itaque lapsum à cursu, palàm sibi uxorem accipere secundum Leges: lest they should be shamed before men, they keep harlots privily: and under the colour of Solitary, or Continent Life, they practise their filthy pleasure. Better is it therefore for a man, being fallen from his course, openly to take unto himself a wife according to the Law. So saith S. Jerome, as I have before alleged: Huiusmodi Virginibus apertè dicendum est, 
Hieronym. Ad Demetriadem.  ut aut nubant, si se non possunt continere: aut contineant, si nolunt nubere: To such virgins we must say plainly, that either they Marry, if they cannot Contain: Or else that they Contain, if they will not marry. 
Bernardus ad Sororem. De modo bene vivendi. Sermo 62.  So saith S. Bernard unto his Sister: Quod incautè vovisti, ne impleas: Impia est promissio, quae scelere adimpletur: That thou haste unadvisedly Vowed, see thou keep it not. It is a wicked promiss, that is performed with wickedness.  
To be short, 
4. Senten dist. 36. Quaest. 1.  johannes Scotus saith, Si votum Continentiae est annexum Ordini Sacro solùm ex praecepto Ecclesiae, sequitur, quòd non simpliciter illegitimat ad contrahendum: If the Vow, or promiss of Chastity be annexed unto Holy Orders Only by force of the Constitution, or Commandment of the Church, then doth it not of necessity, and fine force, unable a man to contract Matrimony.  
How be it, hereof we have said already so much, as to a reasonable man may seem sufficient.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 1.  
We receive, and embrace all the Canonical Scriptures, both of the Old, and New Testament, giving thanks to our God, who hath raised up unto us that Light, which we might ever have before our eyes: least either by the subtlety of man, or by the snares of the Devil, we should be carried away to errors and lies. Also that these be the Heavenly Voices, whereby God hath opened unto us his will: and that only in them man's heart can have settled rest: that in them be abundantly, and fully comprehended all things, what so ever be needful for our Health, as Origene, Augustine, Chrysostom, and Cyrillus have taught: That they be the very might and strength of God to attain to Salvation: That they be the foundations of the Prophets, & Apostles, whereupon is built the Church of God: That they be the very sure, and infallible Rule, whereby may be tried whether the Church do serve, or err, and whereunto all Ecclesiastical Doctrine ought to be called to account: and that against these Scriptures neither Law, nor Ordinance, nor any custom ought to be heard: no though Paul himself, or an Angel from Heaven should come, & teach the contrary.  

M. harding.  
But why do ye not here plainly declare, which be the Books of the Scriptures, that ye allow, and which be they 
* Untruth. For we reject no part of all the Scriptures.  that ye reject? In general, ye say, that ye embrace all the Canonical Scriptures. 
● Macha. 12 jacob. 2.  Yet if a man press you with the place of the Maccabees, for Prayer to be made for the Dead, and with the words of S. james Epistle against your justification of Faith only, and likewise with certain other places of the Scriptures, which be accounted in the Canon of the Church, against certain other your false doctrines: in this case 
* Untruth: For we deny no more, than S. Augustine, S. Jerome, and other Holy Fathers have denied.  your wont is to deny those Scriptures to be Canonical. Yet here ye bear the world in hand ye allow al. Would God there were in you either more truth. or less craft. Well, ye give thanks to God for the Scriptures, for that having them before your eyes, ye are stayed in Truth, assured, that by the subtlety of man, or snares of the Devil, ye be not carried away into Errors, and Lies. And is it so in deed? I pray you sirs of what sect be ye? or of which sect is each one of you? For I dare boldly say, and so the world seeth, that ye agree not all in one. If ye say, ye be Lutherans, then must I further demand of you, of which sort of Lutherans? For that puddle runneth out by many sinks. Be ye zwinglians, Arians, Osiandrines, Libertines, adiaphorists, anabaptists, calvinists, or Sathanis●es? What Privilege have ye before your fellows? a match being made between you (I mean that new clergy of England) and the other sects of our time, etc. If ye have this light of the Scriptures before your eyes, how is it, that ye agree not within yourselves? yea how is it, that each one of you oftentimes disagreeth with himself? how is it that 
* Childish, and fond untruth: For the Communion Book was never but once changed. But see the often changes of the Mass.  so many times ye have changed your Communion Book, the order of your Service, your doctrine of the blessed Sacrament, your Homilies, etc. Who knoweth not how in the matter of the Sacrament your chief Captains have showed themselves inconstant and mutable, and contrary to themselves. I mean Cranmere, Ridley, Latimer, and that great Rabbin Peter Martyr himself? As for the res●, they be not worthy to be named.  
But what say ye? be these the Heavenly Voices, whereby God hath opened unto us his will? Then how dare ye to transgress his will declared in these Voices, where ye read expressly, that he, 
* S. Cyprian saith, Non iungitur Ecclesiae, qui ab evangelio separatur: De Lapsis Sermo. 5.  which heareth not the Church, is to be taken for no better, than a Heathen, and a Publican? As ye proceed, ye say, that only in the Scriptures man's heart can have settled rest, and that in them be abundantly and fully comprehended all things, what so ever be needful for our Salvation, as Origen, Augustine, Chrysostom, and Cyrillus have taught. Either you know not, what you say, sir Defender, nor the things of which you make affirmation, 
1. Timo. 6.  as S. Paul sail of such, as ye are, writing to Timothe, or you are foully overseen. If the heart of man have settled rest in the Scriptures only, 
Man's heart hath not settled rest in Scriptures only.  as you say, then in nothing else but in the Scriptures. By this you seem to trouble and disqutet many hearts. For if this be true, 
* Untruth. For Ab●l ●earde the Word of God. Read the An●●veare.  then had good Abel no better rest in his heart, then wicked restless Cain.  
When the Holy Book of Scripture was lost, which God restored by Esdras, were there none in all that time, whose hearts had settled rest? What foolish, and absurd doctrine is this? 
* A worthy doubt.  What if it had pleased God, there had never been letter written of the Old, or New Testament? should not God's friends have found his peace that passeth all sense, 
Philip. 4.  as S. Paul saith? Had Paul, Antony, Hilarion, Pambus, and many other Holy men living in Wilderness 
* Untruth. For S. Augustine saith, Antonius Scripturas Divinas memoriter audiendo tenuit, etc.  without letters, no rest, ne quiet at their hearts? Nay, who had the like? And whereas you say, that all things needful for our Salvation be abundantly, and fully comprehended in the Scriptures, this is also as false, as sundry other parts of your Doctrine. For if all things necessary to Salvation be contained in the Scriptures, than what so ever is not in them contained, the same is not necessary: If not necessary, why should we be laden with unnecessary burdens? Then away with all Traditions at a clap, be they never so apostolic, never so Ancient, never so Healthful, never so long time in the Church continued. Remember you not, what the most renowned Fathers have written of the necessity of Traditions? Or if you remember them, what thought you when you wrote thus? Let Learned and Holy Basil be heard in steed of many, if not to revoke you from your error, yet to discredit you, and stay others in the truth. 
Lib. de Spiritu Sancto. ca 27.  His words be these: Of the doctrines, which be preached in the Church, certain we have out of the Scripture written, certain we have received in secret Mystery by tradition of the Apostles, 
* Yet now the very same necessary Traditions be quite forgotten, and abolished, yea even in the Church of Rome.  which both be of equal force to Godliness. Neither concerning these any man gainesaieth, be he of never so small knowledge. For if we go about to reject the customs that be not set forth in writing, as being of little regard, then shall we condemn those things also, which we have in the Gospel necessary to Salvation. Yea rather we shall bring the preaching of the Faith but to a bare name. For so they were taken for Heretics, which regarded not the solemn fast of Lente 
* Untruth. Read the Answer.  received at the Apostles, 
Fast of Lente.  as we read in S. Augustine, De Haer. ad Quoduultdeum, cap. 53. and in the Council of Gangra in an Epistle to the Bishops of Armenia. Even so they which denied the 
* Untruth. For hereby both S. P●ule, and S. Jerome, and other good men are condemned of Heresy.  distinction of a Bishop and a Priest, were condemned of Heresy, as we find in S. Augustine in the Book and Chapter aforesaid, and in Epiphanius Lib. 3. Cap. 75. In the Council of Constance the same is to be found.  
Again if all things necessary to Salvation be 
* Untruth. For we say not, All things are there expressed.  expressed in the Scriptures, to what purpose said S. Paul concerning order, and manner, to be used at the celebration of the holy Sacrament: Coetera cùm venero disponam, 
1. Corin. 11. Epist. 2.  As for other things I will take Order for them, when I come? What meaneth S. john to say, Having other things to write to you of, I would not (writ them) in Paper and ink: for I trust to be with you, and speak to you mouth to mouth. To conclude much, that might be objected, in few words for brevities sake, what say you, sir Defender, shall we find all things necessary to Salvation in the Scripture? 
* Stolen, and fond questions.  How think you of the Scripture itself? How know you this to be the Scripture? How know ye the Gospel of matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, to be theirs, whose names they bear? This can you not find in all the Scripture, 
* Untruth. For it is not necessary to Salvation.  and yet is the same necessary to be believed. What Scripture have you to admit these, and to refuse the Book bearing the name of 
* They were written by Heretics in derogation of the Truth.  Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, of Bartholome we, of Nicodeme? Why admit you not the Prophets that Basilides would to be allowed, but only the four great, and the twelve lesser? what authority have you to stay yourself by, concerning these: but only that of the Church? for Scripture have you none for proof hereof. Then hath not Scripture all things in it necessary for a Christian man. 
Homoousion.  Is it not necessary to believe the Son of God to be Homoousion, that is to say, of the same Substance with the Father? which if you deny, you restore the old condemned Heresy of the Arians. 
* Untruth. For Epiphamque 〈◊〉, Sensus eius notain●s ubique est.  The same can you not find in the Scripture. Where in all the Bible find you that God the Father is Ingenitus? Where find you, that the Holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the Son? that the blessed Virgin Marie continued in her Virginity? that such as be baptized of Heretics ought to be baptized again? 
S. Imaes.  That in fantes ought to be baptized? That the Four Books of the Gospels were written by matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, by what Scripture can you prove it? To end, where find you expressly in all the Scriptures three Persons to be one God?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here to weigh down the Authority of God's Holy Word, M. harding hath brought in a heap of ordinary stolen quarrels, Of the difference between Priests, and Bishops: of Lente: of the Communion Book: of the Homilies: of the Order of Service: and of the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady. His whole drift herein is, to bear us in hand, that there is very little, or none Authority in the Scriptures: and that the whole Credit, and certainty of our Faith resteth only in the Church of Rome.  
He seemeth to take it in scorn, that the Word of God should be called the Light. 
Psalm. 118. Psalm. 18. Theophylact. in Lucam, Ca 16.  Yet notwithstanding the Prophet David saith, Thy Word is a Lantern to my feet. And again, The Commandment of the Lord is Lightsome, giving Light unto the eyes. And Theophylacte saith, Verbum Dei est Lucerna, qua Fur deprehenditur: The Word of God is the Candle, whereby their Thief (or false Teacher) is espied.  
Whereas M. harding demandeth of us so pleasantly, what Scriptures we allow, and what we reject, he troubleth himself with an idle, and a peerless question. For we embrace, and reverence every parcel, and title of the Scriptures without exception, not refusing any part thereof, that hath been allowed by the Ancient, Learned, Catholic Fathers of the Church of God.  
Neither do we so scornfully call God's Holy Word, 
Albert. Pigghius, Lib. 3. Cap. 3. Hierar.  a Nose of wax, a Shipmannes' Hose, or a Dead letter: as sundry of that side have delighted to call it.  
touching the Book of the Maccabees, we say nothing, but that we find written by S. Jerome, 
johan. Sleidan. Lib. 23.  S. Augustine, & other Holy Fathers. S. Jerome saith. Machabaeorum Libros legit quidem Ecclesia: Sed eos inter Canonicas Scripturas non recipit: In deed the Church readeth the Books of the Maccabees: 
Hieronym. in Prooemio in Proverb Salomonis. In the first part Chap. 10. Diuis. 2.  but she receiveth them not among the Canonical allowed Scriptures.  
Or Prayer for the Dead, we shall have place more convenient to speak hereafter.  
The place of S. james, touching the justification of Faith, & Works, is answered before. Neither do we discredit any part either of the Authority, or of the Doctrine of that whole Epistle: notwithstanding Eusebius saith, It was written by some other, 
Euseb. li. 2. ca 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and not by S. James. His words be these: Istius jacobi, qui lustus, & Oblias vocabatur, dicitur esse Epistola, quae prima scribitur inter Canonicas. Sciendum autem est, illam Epistolam esse Spuriam: The Opinion is, that the Epistle, which is reckoned the first among the Canonicalles, is of this james, which was called justus, and Oblias. But we must understand, that it is a Bastard Epistle, and not written by S. James.  
Likewise S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. in Catalogo Ecclesiasticor. Scriptorum.  Epistola jacobi ab alio quopiam sub eius nomine edita asseritur: It is said, that the Epistle of S. james, was set forth by some other man under his name. This therefore is no New fantasy: but the judgement of the Ancient Learned Fathers. Nevertheless we do both receive the same Epistle, and also read it in Our Churches: and allow every Clause, and Sentence, that therein is written.  
M. harding saith, If ye have this Light of the Scriptures before your eyes, how is it, that ye agree no better amongst yourselves? And here he reckoneth up by rote a many of names of his own making, Lutherans, zwinglians, Arians, Osiandrians, Libertines, adiaphorists, anabaptists, calvinists, and Sathanistes. In which his so pleasant fancy, he may have leave to sport himself, while he listeth. 
Word written.  God be thanked, we agree thoroughly together in the whole Substance of the Religion of Christ: and altogether with one heart, and one Spirit do glorify God the Father of our Lord jesus Christ. Certainly S. Augustine, S. Jerome, S. Chrysostom, Epiphanius, and Theophilus, as it appeareth by their writings, agreed no better together in their time, than we do now. Yet had they, and every of them the Word of God: and the same Word of God was a Light unto their feet.  
It was not for any great store of better matter, I trow, that M. harding thus chargeth us with so often changing the Communion Book. For of more, then of one Only Change, he cannot tell us. And if there had been less than that, there had been no change at al. And yet, for that One change, he himself in the mean season hath changed thrice. But the Holy Communion Book, and the Order of the Holy Ministration standeth, and by God's Mercy shall stand still, without any further Change.  
How be it, 
Platin. in Sixto. 1 Polydor. Vergil. De Inuentorib. rer. Li. 5. Cap. 10.  Gentle Reader, if thou wilt know the often Alterations, and Changes of the Mass, read, I beseech thee, Platyna, and Polydore Vergil, touching the same: There shalt thou find, how, and by whom, and upon what occasion, and in what process of time, all the parts of the Mass were peeced, and set together: and that in the space of seven hundred whole years scarcely, and with much ado it was made up at last, and brought to some perfection.  
Christ's Commandment of Hearing the Church is answered before. S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. De Fide. & Simbol. isaiah. 8.  Credimus Sanctam Ecclesiam: non Credimus in Sanctam Ecclesiam: We believe, that there is a Holy Church: But we Believe not in the Holy Church. For the Church is not God, nor is able of herself to make, or alter any one Article of the Faith. The Prophet Esay saith, Ad Legem potiùs, & ad Testimonium. Si non responderint secundum Verbum hoc, non erit illis Lux Matutina: To the Law rather, and to the Testimony. If they answer not according to this Word, they shall have no Morning Light.  
M. harding saith further, If quietness of Conscience come of the Word of God only, then had Abel no more quietness of Conscience then wicked restless Cain. Then should Paul the Eremite, and Antony, and Hilarion, and Pambus, and other Holy men, living in Wilderness without Letters, have had no rest, ne quiet at their hearts. And why so? Because they had no Word written.  
Who would think, that M. harding, bearing such a countenance of Divinity, would thus go about to deceive himself with a point of Sophistry? Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. In Genes. Homil. 2. Hebrae. 3.  Deus Conditor Humani Generis ab initio per seipsum homibus loquebatur: God the Creator of Mankind, from the beginning spoke unto men by himself, in his own person. And S. Paul saith, Deus olim multifariàm, multisquemodis Patribus locutus est: In Old times God spoke many ways, and in sundry sorts unto the Fathers. And doth M. harding think, when God himself in his own person, and presently spoke unto Abel, that Abel beard not then the Word of God? We speak not so precisely, and nicely of God's Word written in Paper. For so it is a Creature Corruptible, and shall consume, and perish, as other Corruptible Creatures do. But the Word of God, which we speak of, endureth for ever.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. in jobum. Ca 27.  Quomodò Aeternae erunt Scripturae Divinae, si Mundus certo fine est terminandus? Verum est quidem, quòd Librorum pelliculae cum ipsis Literis abolendae sunt. Sed, quia subiungit Dns, Verba verò mea non praeteribunt, proculdubio, quod illis apicibus pollicetur, erit Aeternum: How shall the Holy Scriptures he everlasting, seeing the World shall have on end? True it is, that the parchment, or leaves of the Books with the letters and all, 
Traditions.  shall be abolished. But for as much as our Lord addeth, My Words shall never pass, doubtless (though the Papers, and Letters perish, yet) the thing, that is promised by the same letters, shall last for ever. 
Chrysostom. 2. Corin. Homil. 18.  So Chrysostom saith, Paulus Praedicationem non Scrip●am appellat, evangelium: preaching not written Paul calleth the Gospel.  
That M. harding addeth of Antonius, and Paulus, & Hilarion, & other Eremites, that they lived in Wilderness without Letters, and therefore presumeth, they lived without the Word of God, it is very unadvisedly spoken, and utterly untrue. For proof whereof, to name only One in steed of the rest, S. Augustine saith, that Antonius the Eremite was notably Learned, and perfit in the Scriptures. 
August. De Doctrina Christiana Lib. 1. In Prologo.  His words be these, Antonius sine ulla scientia Literarum, Scripturas Divinas & memoriter audiendo tenuisse, & prudenter cogitando intellexisse, praedicatur: It is reported, that Antonius, without knowledge of Letter, both Learned the Holy Scriptures, and bore them well in mind, by hearing: and also by Wisdom and study, understood them.  
And whereas M. harding would seem to make such an account of Prayer, 
Augus●in. De Scalic Paradisi, Cap. 11.  and Holiness without knowledge, S. Augustine saith, Lectio sine Meditatione arida est: Meditatio sine Lectione erronea est: Oratio sine Meditatione tepida est: Reading without Meditation, or study is dry, and barren: Meditation, or study without Reading is erroneous: And Prayer without Cogitation, or study is half cold, and unfruitful. Thus we see by S. Augustine's judgement, that the Force, and Substance both of Prayer, and of Meditation dependeth of Reading.  
How be it, what Comfort, and peace of Conscience we have by Hearing the Word of God, S. Paul can tell us somewhat better, than M. harding. Thus he saith, 
Rom. 15.  Quaecunque Scripta sunt, etc. What so ever things are written, they are written for our learning, that by Patience, and Comfort of the Scriptures we may have hope. Even so saith Christ himself, 
johan. 17.  O Father, this is the everlasting Life, that they may know thee, the only, and very God: and jesus Christ, whom thou haste sent.  
But S. Paul saith. 
2. Thessalon. 2. Basili. De Spiritu Sancto. Ca 27.  Keep the Traditions, which ye have received, either by Epistle, or by Word. And S. Basile reckoneth Traditions to be One, and Equal with the Word of God. first, that S. Basile wort those words rather of zeal, then of judgement, it may easily appear, by that the self same Traditions, that he there specially nameth, and so highly commendeth, are for the greatest part already abolished, and quite forgotten, yea and that even in the Church of Rome. Yet the Word of God endureth still, and shall endure for ever. For example, by one of S. Basiles necessary Traditions, It is not lawful for any man, to kneel in the Church upon the Sonnedaie: 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  But every man is bound by the same Tradition, at Sermon, at Prayer, & at the Communion, to stand upright. And this, he saith, was given unto us in Secret Charge by the Apostles of Christ. This so necessary, and so apostolic Tradition is now dissolved, and broken, and utterly forgotten, not only in Louvain, but also in Rome.  
S. Augustine saith, 
Augustinus ad Casulanum.  By Tradition of the Apostles, between Easter, and Witsondaie it was not lawful for any man to Fast. Yet now we Fast within the same days so forbidden, and the same kind of Fast is thought lawful, the Apostles Tradition to the contrary notwithstanding.  
The rest of S. Basiles Traditions stand in hallowing of Water: in Blessing of Oil: 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  in praying towards the east: in uttering certain words of Invocation at the shewing forth of the Bread of thanksgiving unto the people. These things, I believe, M. harding himself never thought to be Equivalente with the Word of God.  
But if these, and other like Traditions be so weighty, and so necessary, as he seemeth to make them, 
Traditions.  then let him tell us in good sooth, and without fable: what were these Mystical Solemn Words of Invocation, that S. Bas●le saith were spoken by the Priest, at the opening, or shewing forth of the Sacrament? If they be so necessary to be used, and continued in the Church of God, why hath he, & his whole Roman clergy quite forgotten them? If he, and his clergy have forgotten them, and use them not, and care not for them, how can he say, or may we think, they are so necessary to Salvation?  
This is the Simplicity, and plainness of M. hardings dealing. He telleth us many tales of the Apostles Traditions, being himself the manifest despiser, and breaker of the same Traditions. touching the words of S. Paul, I marvel, that M. harding could so easily be deceived. For S. Paul himself, even in the same words, & in the self same line would have told him, that by the name of Traditions, he meant, not unwritten Verities, and lifeless Ceremonies, as he supposeth, but the self same Substance of Religion, & Doctrine, that he had uttered unto the thessalonians before, either by Epistle, or by preaching.  
These be his Words, 
2. Thessalon. 2.  Hold the Traditions, which ye have received either by Epistle, or by Word. He calleth them Traditions, although they were contained in his Epistles, and delivered to them by Writing. For the Apostles preaching, & writing, 
Nicephor. Lib. 2. Cap. 34.  in ground and substance were all one. Nicephorus saith, Paulus, quae praesens oratione sua dilucidè docuerat, eadem absens per compendium in memoriam, scripta Epistola, revocare voluit: Paul, what things, being present, he had plainly taught by Mouth, the same things afterward, being absent, he shortly called to their remembrance, by writing of an Epistle. The like he writeth also of S. matthew, 
Nicephor. Lib. 2. Cap. 45.  Matthaeus discedens (aliò praedicatum) absentiam suam scripto praesenti compensavit: S. matthew departing (to preach in other places) recompensed his absence by present writing.  
S. Paul unto the Philippians saith thus, 
Philippen 3.  Eadem scribere mihi quidem non pigrum: vobis au●em necessarium: To write unto you the self same things, unto me it is not painful: but in your behalf, it is necessary. These words S. Jerome expoundeth thus: 
Hieronym. in Epistol. ad Philippen. Cap. 3. Theophylact. in Lucam, Cap. 1.  Eadem scribere, hoc est, eadem repetere, quae praesens dixeram: To write the same things, that is to say, to make rehearsal of the same things, that I told you by Mouth, whe● I was present.  
So saith Theophylacte, speaking in the person of S. Luke: Priùs te sine Scripto institui: nunc scriptum tibi trado evangelium: Atque ita mentem tuam munio, ut ne obliviscatur eorum, quae priùs sine scriptis Tradita sunt: Before this time I have instructed thee without writing. Now I deliver unto thee a written Gospel. And so I furnish thy mind, that it forgeate not the things, that were delivered thee before without writing.  
So saith Irenaeus, 
Irenae. lib. 3. ca 1.  Apostoli tunc evangelium praeconiaverunt. Posteà verò per Dei voluntatem, illud in Scriptures nobis tradiderunt, Fundamentum, & Columnam Fidei nostrae futurum: Then the Apostles preached the Gospel. And afterward by God's will, they delivered the same to us in writing, to be a foundation, and a Pillar unto our Faith.  
And therefore Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in. 2. Corin. Homil. 18.  Paulus etiam non Scriptam Praedicationem, vocat evangelium: S. Paul calleth his preaching not written, by the name of the Gospel.  
But me thinketh, M. harding, so stoutly striving for the bare name of Traditions, should better have Learned S. Hieromes lesson touching the same. 
Hieronym. in 2. Thessalon. 2.  Thus he writeth upon these words of S. Paul, Hold the Traditions, which ye have learned, either by Our Epistle, or by Our Word: Quando sua vult teneri, non vult extranea superaddi: Whereas S. Paul will have his own things to be kept, he will have no strange things thereto to be added. 
Traditions.   
And, that S. Paul by this Word, Traditions, meant not Ceremonies, or certain secret unknown Verities, but the very Substance of the Gospel of Christ, as it is said before: if M. harding will not believe us, yet let him believe S. Paul himself. 
1. Corinth. 15.  Thus he writeth, Tradidi vobis in primis, quod etiam accepi, quòd Christus mortuus est pro peccatis nostris secundum Scripturas: first I have delivered to you, (or given to you by Tradition) the same thing, that I received: that is, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures. Here by S. Paul's Words, the Death of Christ is called a Tradition.  
So saith S. Basile, 
Basilius De Spiritu Sancto. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Hoc palàm impugnat Salutaris Baptismatis Traditionem: Baptismus noster juxta ipsam Domini Traditionem est in Nomine Patris, & filii, & Spiritus Sancti: Per ipsam Baptismi Traditionem habemus Confessionem Fidei: This thing is plainly against the Tradition of Healtheful Baptism: Our Baptism, according to the Tradition of our Lord, is in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: By the very Tradition of Baptism we have the Confession of Faith.  
S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. ad Pompeium. contra Epis●●lam Stephani.  unde est ista Traditio? Vtrum ne de Dominica, & Euangeliea Authoritate descendens, an de Apostolorum Mandatis, atque Epistolis veniens? etc. Si igitur aut in evangelio praecipitur, aut in Apostolorum Epistolis & acts continetur, obseruetur etiam haec Sancta Traditio: From whence have we this Tradition? Whether cometh it from the Authority of Our Lord, and of the Gospel: or else from the Commandments, and Epistles of the Apostles? etc. Therefore if it be either commanded in the Gospel, or contained in the Epistles, or Acts of the Apostles, let us keep the same Tradition. Likewise Eusebius saith, Polycarpus, 
Euseb. li. 5. ca 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  c●m recepisset ea ab illis, qui ipsi viderant vitam Verbi, nuntiavit eadem, omnia Scripturis consona: Polycarpus, when he had received these things of them, that had seen the Life of the Word, utteted, and showed the same, being all agreeable unto the Scriptures.  
Of such Traditions, it is plain, S. Paul speaketh. Now therefore judge thou, Gentle Reader, how truly, and handsomely M. harding allegeth these Words of S. Paul, to serve his purpose.  
As for Lenten Fast, the Superstition only excepted, we condemn it not, but use it still. But how can M. harding say, either that Lente is so necessary, as he maketh it: or else, that it is the Tradition of the Apostles? Verily S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. Epist. 86.  Quibus diebus non oporteat ieiunare, & quibus oporteat, Praecepto Domini, vel Apostolorum non invenio definitum: Upon what days we ought not to Fast, and upon what days we ought to Fast, I find it not appointed, or limited by any commandment, either of Our Lord, or of the Apostles.  
So saith Socrates, 
Socrates, Lib. ●. Cap. 22.  evangelia non imposuerunt jugum servitutis: Sed homines ipsi suis quisque locis propter remissionem, & memoriam Passionis, Pascha, & alios Dies Festos, sicut volverunt, ex Consuetudine quadam celebrarunt. Non enim hoc vel Seruator, vel Apostoli Lege aliqua obseruandum esse mandaverunt: The Gospel hath laid upon us no Yoke of bondage: But men themselves in the Countries where they dwelt, for release of labour, and Remembrance of the Passion of Christ, of a certain Custom, kept the Easter, and other Holy days, each man, as he would. For neither Our savour, nor the Apostles by any Law commanded these things.  
Likewise saith Cassiodorus, 
Cassidor. Lib. 5. Ca 38.  Alij Pisces solummodò comedunt: Alij unà cum Piscibus utuntur etiam Volatilibus: Alij usque ad No●am ●einnantes, sine discretione Ciborum reficiuntur. Puto, Apostolos singulorum hoc reliquisse sententiae, ut unusquisque Operetur, non timore, aut necessitate, quod bonum est: Some men (in the time of the Lenten Fast) eat only Fish: Others use both Fishy, and Fowl too: Some others, when they have Fasted until three of the Clock in the afternoon, afterward they refreashe their bodies without difference or Choice of meats. 
Lenten Fast.  I think, the Apostles left this matter to every man's discretion, that every man may do good without fear, or Superstition, or necessity.  
Tertullian likewise saith, 
Tertull. De jeiunio, contra Physichos.  De coetero indifferenter ieiunandum, ex arbitrio, non ex imperio Novae Disciplinae, pro temporibus, & causis uniuscuiusque. Sic & Apostolos obseruasse, nullum aliud imponentes jugum certorum, & in Commune omnibus obeundorum ieiuniorum: Henceforth we must Foste without compulsion, of free will, not by commandment of this New Discipline, accordingly as every man shall see time, and cause. For so, it appeareth, the Apostles kept it, laieinge on none other yoke of certain appointed Fasts, to be observed in Common of all men altogether.  
Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
Augusti. contra Faustum, Li. 30. Cap. 5.  Per Quadragesimam ferè omnes abstinent, non solùm à Carnibus, verùm etiam à quibusdam fructibus, quantò magis quisque vel minùs, seu volverit, seu potuerit: In the Lente season all men for the most part abstain, not only from flesh, but also from certain fruits, as every man either will, or is able to do, more or less.  
All these things being true, and certain, and out of question, how can M. harding thus assure us, that the Lenten Fast is the Undoubted Tradition, and Commandment of the Apostles?  
Certainly, whereas they so often tell us, we ought to Fast Forty Days, for that Christ himself did the like, and gave us example so to do, Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom in Matthae. Homil. 47.  Christus non jubet, ut leiunium suum imitemur: Christ commandeth us not to follow his fasting, Or, to Fast, as he Fasted.  
And touching the number of the Days, Eusebius saith, Quidam putant ieiunare oportere unum tantùm Diem: 
Eusebius. Li. 5. Cap 26.  alij Duos: alij Plures: alij quadraginta Horas diurnas, noctumasque: some think, they ought to Fast only one day? Others, two days: Others. more: Some others, Forty whole Hours both night, and day together.  
But what meant M. harding here to come in with the difference between Priests, and Bishops? Thinketh he, that Priests, & Bishops hold only by Tradition? Or is it so horrible an Heresy, as he maketh it, to say, that by the Scriptures of God, a Bishop, and a Priest are at One? Or knoweth he, how far, and unto whom he reacheth the name of an Heretic?  
Verily Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost in 1. Timoth. Hom. 11. Hieronym. ad Euagrium.  Inter Episcopum, & Presbyterum interest fermè nihil: between a Bishop, and a Priest in a manner there is no difference. S. Jerome saith, somewhat in rougher sort, Audio, quendam in tantam erupisse vecordiam, ut Diaconos Presbyteris, id est, Episcopis anteferret: Cùm Apostolus perspicué doceat, eosdem esse Presbyteros, quos Episcopos. I hear say, there is One become so peevish, that he setteth Deacons before Priests, that is to say, before Bis hops: where as the Apostle plainly teacheth us, that Priests, and Bishops be all One.  
S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. In quaestiontb. No. ui & Veter. Testamen. Qu●ol. Ambros. De Dignitate Sacerdot all. 1. Cor in 7. johan. 2.  Quid est Episcopus, nisi Primus Presbyter, hoc est, Summus Sacerdos? What is a Bishop, but the first Priest, that is to soie, the Highest Priest? So saith S. Ambrose, Episcopi, & Presbyteri una Ordinatio est: Vterque enim Sacerdos est. Sed Episcopus Primus est: There is but one Consecration of Priest, and Bishop. For both of them are Priests. But the Bishop is the first.  
All these, and Other more Holy Fathers together with S. Paul the Apostle, for thus sateinge, by M. hardings advise, must be holden for Heretics.  
But S. Paul saith to the Corinthians, Coetera, cùm venero, disponam: For the rest, I will take order, when I come. And S. john saith, I will not write by paper, and ink: but I trust to be with you me self, and to speak unto you. Upon these sew words. M. harding is able to build by his Dimi Communion, his Private Mass, 
Traditions.  and, what so ever he listeth besides.  
S. Augustine saith, 
Augu. in johan. Tract. 57  Omnes insipientissimi Haeretici, qui se Christianos vocari volunt, audacias figmentorum suorum, quas maximè exhorret sensus humanus, hac occasione evangelicae sententiae colorare conantur, ubi Dominus ait, Adhuc multa vobis habeo dicere: Sed ea non potestis portare modò: All the most peevish Heretics, that feign would be called Christians, go about to colour the bold Vanities of their Inucntions, which the very sense and reason of Man doth most abhor, with the pretence of this saying in the Gospel, where as our Lord saith thus: I have many things to say unto you: but as now ye are not able to bear them.  
Even so saith Tertullian, Eadem dementia confitentur, Apostolos quidem nihil ignorasse, 
Tertul. De prescription. Contra Haereticos.  nec diversa inter se praedicasse. Sed non omnia volunt illos omnibus revelasse: Sed quaedam Palàm. & universis: quaedam secretò, & Paucis demandasse: By a like kind of Madness they Confess, that the Apostles in deed were ignorant of no thing: nor taught any contrary Doctrine among themselves. But they say, The Apostles reucied not all things to all men: but showed certain things openly, and to all: and other certain things secretly, and unto a few.  
By such right held sommetime the great Heretic Arius. For even so said he then, 
Athanasius Contra Arian. Oratione 2.  as M. harding saith now, Ex Electis Dei secundum Fidem, Peritis Dei, Rectigradis, ovi Sanctum Dei Spiritum acceperunt, ego ita didici: These things have I learned (not of the Scriptures, but) of the Chosen of God, according to Faith: of the skilful in Godly understanding: of them, that walked uprightly, and had received the Spirit of God: that is to sale, by Tradition.  
So Epiphanius saith, 
Epiphani. Lib. 2. Haeres. 38.  The Heretics called Caiani, avouched all their solies, and Heresies, not by the Scriptures, but by Tradition, as they said, from S. Paul: and took upon them to know all those Secret words, that S. Paul had heard in the third Heaven.  
If M. harding may have leave, to handle the same weapons, I doubt not, but he will soon be able to prove, that both his Holy Bread, & his Holy Water, and, what so ever shall please him else, came by Tradition directly from the Apostles, and from Christ himself.  
But S. Paul, 
1. Cor. 11.  when he said, I will come, and take order, he meant not to devise any other Scripture, or New Verities, that they had not known before: but only to appoint them, in what place, at what time, in what order, and with what other Circumstances, the Holy Ministration, and other like Ecclesiastical Offices should be used.  
As for these fantasies, that M. harding, and his fellows have imagined, S. Augustine saith, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 96.  cùm Christus ipse tacuerit, quis nostrum dicat, Ista, vel illa sunt? Aut, si dicere audeat, unde probat? Quis enim est tam vanus, aut tam temeratius, qui, cùm dixerit etiam vera, quibas volverit, quae volverit, fine vllo Testimonio Divino, affirmet ea esse, quae tunc Dominus dicere noluit? For as much as Christ himself hath not revesed these things, which of us will say, they be these, or these? Or if he so say, how can he prove it? For who is there, either so vain, or so rash, who, notwithstanding he speak the Truth, to whom he listeth, and what he listeth, will affirm without any Testimony of the Scriptures, that these be the things, that the Lord than would not Open?  
Such things they be, 
Hieronym In Aggaeum. cap. 1.  S. Jerome saith, are cut of with the Sword (that is to say, with the Word) of God.  
M. harding saith, these express Words, Persona, Ingenitus, Homousios, are not found in the Scriptures. So said the Arian Heretics too, as well, as he. But what foreeth that? 
Epiphan. Lib 3. Hares. 73. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Epiphanius saith, Nomen Substantiae non ponitur nudè, nec in Veteri, nec in Novo Testamento: Sensus autem eius Nominis ubique est: This very word, 
Forged Scriptures  Substantia, is not plainly expressed, neither in the New, nor in the Old Tement: But the sense and meaning of that Word is everywhere.  
So saith Anthanasius, 
Athanas. Tom. 2. Quòd Decreta Ni●enae Synodi commodis, & piys verbis sint exposita.  Tametfi haec voces in Scriptura non reperiuntur, tamen habent earn Sententiam, quam Scripturae volunt: Notwithstanding these words be not found expressed in the Scripture, yet have they the same sense and meaning, that the scripture willeth.  
touching the Perpetual Virginity of that Blessed Virgin, the Mother of Christ, which M. harding saith, cannot be proved by any Scriptures, Gennadius writeth thus, 
Gennadius in Catalogo Illustri. Virorum.  Heluidij pravitatem arguens Hieronymus, Libellum Documentis Scripturarum Sufficienter factum adversus cum edidu: S. Jerome reprevinge the wilful lewdness of the Heretic helvidius (denieinge the Perpetual Virginity of Christ's Mother) set forth a Book against him, furnished with sufficient Testimomonies of the Scriptures. Gennadius saith, the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady is proved sufficiently by the Scriptures: M. harding, only to maintain his quarrel, saith, It cannot be proved by any Scriptures: but standeth only by Tradition.  
S. Jerome himself in so vain a contention, moved by an Heretic, thought it sufficient to answer thus: 
Hieronym. Contra Heluidium.  Mariam nupsisse post partum non credimus: quia non legimus: We believe not, that Marie was Married again after her Childebearinge: because we read it not.  
Here M. harding thinketh to oppress us with the Old Heretics Ordinary question: How know you, saith he, that the Scriptures be the Scriptures? How know you, that the Gospel of Thomas, Bartholomewe, and Nicodeme are no Scriptures? Thus they labour to pull all credit from the Word of God, and send us only to their Traditions. Of God, and his Word, they would evermore have us to stand in doubt: but of the Pope, and his Word, they say, in any wise we male not doubt. 
Hosius, De expresso Verbo Dei.  Hosius a special proctor of that side saith, Quod Ecclesia docet, id est Expressum Verbum Dei: What so ever the Church teacheth, (he meaneth the Church of Rome) that is the very Express Word of God.  
A man might well demand the like question of M. harding: How know you, that the Son is the Son? Or that the Moene is the Moene? Or how know you, that the Church is the Church? Or that the Congregation of the Wicked is not the Church?  
Such idle questions the Old Heretics the Manichées demanded of S. augustine. 
August. Contra Paustum, Lib. 32. Cap. 21.  But S. Augustine answered them, Si quaeratis à nobis, unde nos sciamus, Apostolorum esse istas literas, breviter vobis respondemus, Ind nos scire, unde & vos scitis, illas literas esse Manichaei: If you demand of us, how we know that these be the Apostles writings, we make you this short answer, Even so we know, that Our writings are of the Apostles, as you know, that your writings are of the Heretic Manichee.  
But for further answer, I reckon, M. harding cannot be ignorant, that the Gospel of Thomas, Bartholomewe, Nicodeme, and such others, were never written by them, whoes names they bear: but were wickedly, and falsely countrefeited under their names, by sundry Heretics.  
S. Ambrose saith, 
Euseb. Li. 3. ca 25 Ambro. in Lucan, in Prooemio.  Erant Pseudopropherae, etc. Erat autem populi gratia discernere Spiritus: ut cogno scerer, quos referre deberet in numerum Propherarum: quos autem, quasi bonus Nummularius, reprobare. Sic & nunc in Novo Testamento multi evangelia scribere conati sunt: quae boni Nummularij non probaverunt: There were False Prophets, etc. But the people had a Grace geeven them, to discern Spirits, and to judge, whom they should receive into the number of the Prophets: and whom, as skilful exchangers, 
Forged Scriptures  they should refuse. Even so now in the time of the New Testament, Many have taken in hand to Writ Gospels: But the skilful exchangers, and triers of Coins have not allowed them.  
So saith S. Augustine: 
Augusti. contra Faustum, Lib. 22. Cap. 80.  Manichaei legunt Scripturas Apocryphas, nescio à quibus Sutoribus Fabularum, sub nomine Apostolorum scriptas: The Manichees read Secret Hidden Scriptures, written, I know not by what Cobblers of Fables, under the name of the Apostles.  
So saith Eusebius of the Gospel countrefeited under the name of S. Peter: Nos Petrum, 
Euseb. li. 6 ca 12.  & reliquos Apostolos, sicut Christum recipimus. Sed Pseudepigrapha reijcimus: Veluti gnari eorum sensus, & sententiae: Scientes, quòd talia non recipimus tradita ab Apostolis: We receive Peter, and the rest of the Apostles, as we would receive Christ himself. But counterfeit writings (under their names) we refuse uttersy: as having understanding of their sense, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and meaning: knowing well, that we have received no such things delivered by the Apostles.  
Thus had the Church of God the Spirit of Wisdom, whereby to discern the True Scriptures from the False.  
Yet male we not gather hereof, that the Authority of the Church is over, and above the Scriptures. 
Dist. 4. In istis.  S. Augustine saith, In istis temporalibus Legibus, quamuis de illis homines iudicent, cùm eas instituunt, tamen cùm fuerint institutae, & firmatae, non licebit ludici, de illis judicare, sed secundum eas: In these temporal, or Worldly jaws, although men be judges over them, while they be a making, yet after the same Laws be once made, and established, it is no senger lawful for the judge to judge of them: Only it is lawful, to judge by them.  
Likewise again he saith, 
August. Confess. Lib. 13. Cap. 23.  Spirituales, sive qui praesunt, sive qui obtemperant, Spiritualiter judicant: non de cognitionibus Spiritualibus, quae lucent in Firmamento (id est, de Scriptures): Non enim oportet de tam sublimi Authoritate judicare, etc. Homo enim, licet Spiritualis, factor ramen Legis esse debet, non judex. De illis dicitur judicare, in quibus potestatem habet corrigendi: men Spiritual, whether they ruse, or be ruled, judge according to the Spirit. But they judge not of the Spiritual knowledge, that shineth in the firmament (that is to say, of the Scriptures): For it is not lawful for any man to be judge over so high Authority. For be the man never so much Spiritual, yet must he be a Doer, and not a judge of the Law. There a Man is said to be a judge, where he hath Power, and Authority to correct.    

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division. 1.  
Moreover we allow the Sacraments of the Church, that is to say, certain Holy Signs, & Ceremonies, which Christ would we should use, that by them he might set before our eyes the Mysteries of our Salvation, and might more strongly confirm the Faith, which we have in his Blood, and might seal his Grace in our hearts. And these Sacraments, together with Tertullian, Origen, Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome, Chrysostom, Basile, Dionysius, & other Catholic Fathers. we do call Figures, Signs, Marks, Badges, Prints, Copies, forms, Seals, Signettes, Similitudes, Patterns, Representations, remembrances, and Memories. And we make no doubt, together with the same Doctors to say, that these be certain Visible words, Seals of Righteousness, and Tokens of Grace.  

M. harding.  
With what face, say ye, that ye allow the Sacraments of the Church? 
* Untruth. For the things, that weehave left, were not the Sacram. of the Church.  Have ye not abandot ned almost all the Sacraments of the Church? Retain ye any more by name of the Sacraments then two, Baptism, and your Supper of the Lord? Of which the one, after that Doctrine, as it is by you taught, and ministered, availeth nothing but to your further condemnation.  
The sound, and true Doctrine, which the Catholic Church holdeth, and believeth touching this point, is this: 
The sound and true Doctrine of the Sacraments.  There be seven Sacraments, in which, under cover of visible things, the 
* Untruth. As shall appear.  Power of God worketh man's health. They be these: Baptism, Confirmation, the Sacrament of the altar, Penance, extreme Unction, Order, Wedlock. And these so we call Sacraments, as nevertheless we acknowledge the name of Sacrament may be extended to many other things. That it be known what a Sacrament is, this word Sacrament signifieth sommetime a holy thing, 
Seven Samentes.  sometime the sign of a holy thing instituted by God. 
Sacrament what it signifieth.  As it is taken for a sign only, so is it found generally, not only in the New Law, but also in the Old Law. But in the New Law these signs after a Peculiar, and Special manner be called Sacraments, which do not only signify a holy thing, but also do sanctify and make holy those to whom they be adhibited, being such as by institution of Christ contain grace in them, and Power to sanctify. 
● Untruth. For they are only certain late Scholastical Sophisters.  Whereof a Sacrament is by the best learned divines defined to be a visible sign of invisible grace, 
Definition of a Sacrament.  so as it bear the image of it, * and be cause of the same. For the plain understanding of this Definition, how a Sacrament beareth the form, sign, or image of invisible grace, it appeareth evidently in Baptism, where washing of the body showeth the cleansing of the soul. Also in the Sacrament of the Altar, 
* Untruth, Vain, and childish. For no Learned Father ever said so.  where the forms of Bread and Wine outwardly represent the spiritual nourishing of the soul. The like appeareth in other Sacraments.  
Neither is it a New, and strange Doctrine to say, that the Sacraments of the Gospel contain grace in them, for the Fathers teach the same not seldom. Chrysostom expounding the Mystery of the Pool called Bethesda in Hebrew, that was in jerusalem, saith, that sick folk were healed at the moving of the water, to the intent men might be brought to understand the virtue of Baptism. For than was it coming to pass (saith he) that Baptism should be full of power and grace. 
Cap. 5.  S. Ambrose in his book de Sacramentis speaking of Baptism, saith it is not every water that healeth, but that water healeth, which hath the Grace of Christ. Cyrillus upon the foresaid Chapter of S. john saith, that in Baptism it is not Water simply, that worketh, but when as it hath received the grace of the Holy Ghost. 
Sermoné Dominicae intra octavas Epiphaeniae.  S. Augustine in a Sermon saith, the Water in Baptism is enriched with a more gift in manner, than was the Virgin Mary. For the (saith he) deserved Chastity to herself, this hath given to us sanctifications: She deserved that she sinned not, this that it might purge sins. It is said universally by S. Cyprian of all the Sacraments, that the fat of Gods anointing powereth fullness of grace into the ministerial sanctifications, 
In sermone de Baptismo Christi.  whereby he meaneth the Sacraments. Yet we mean, that they contain grace, and power to sanctify, after such manner of speaking, as we say of Potions and drinks prepared for sick Persons, that they contain health, to the working whereof they be effectual.  
And as it is said of the Sacraments, that they contain grace, so is it likewise said, that through their virtue, which they have by God's institution, they do not only signify (as by these Defenders Doctrine that seemeth to be their special office) but also with signification 
* Untruth. See the Answer.  work and cause, as an instrumental cause, the effect of that, which they signify.  
After which manner, 
Power gede to Sacraments to work that they signify by God's ordinance.  God hath given to the Sacraments of the New Testament, that they work the thing signified, through virtue given them by God's ordinance, to special effects of grace.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Of the number of the Sacraments, we shall have more convenient time to speak hereafter. There, gentle Reader, I trust, thou shalt see M. hardings great question easily answered, with what face we say, we allow the Sacraments of the Church. In the mean season it may please thee, to weigh these words of Cardinal Bessarion, the Bishop of Tusculum, one of M. hardings especial Catholic Doctors: 
Bessarion, De Sacramen. Eucharistiae.  Haec Duo Sola Sacramenta in Euangelijs manifestè tradita legimus: These only two Sacraments we read to be delivered us plainly in the Gospel. Here Bessarion nameth, 
Baptism.  not Seven Sacraments, as M. Harding doth, but only Two. Certainly we refuse no Sacrament, that ever was either ordained by Christ, or used and practised by the Apostles.  
Your lords Supper, saith M. harding, availeth you nothing, but to your further Condennation. So must it needs be, because M. Harding saith, it shall so be. These Tragical terrors are fit only to frale children: In the Date of the Lord each man's work shall appear. The simplest of our people understandeth the Nature, & Meaning of the Holy Mystery of Our lords Supper: & therefore they receive the same together to their great consolation. But in Your Lady Mass the simple people understandeth nothing, heareth nothing, &, saving a few unseemly Ceremonies, seeth nothing. And therefore they so seldom Communicate, & that only of custom, without any zeal, or comfort of conscience, as having no sense, or feeling in all these doings. 
Origen. in Luc● Homil. 5.  Origen saith, Nisi Circuncisionis reddatur ratio, nutus est, & Opus mutum. Pascha, & aliae Solenuitates nutus magis sunt, quàm Veritas, usque hodiè Populus Israel surdus, & mutus est: unless the reasons, or causes of Circumcision be opened, Circumcision is but a gesture, and a dumb kind of work. The Easter Feast, and other like Solemnities, are rather Ceremonies, than the Truth itself. Even still until this day, 
Ambros. in 1. Cor. 11.  the people of Israel is deaf, and dumb. S. Ambrose saith, Indignus est Domino, qui aliter Mysterium celebrat, quàm à Christo traditum est. Non enim potest devotus esse qui aliter praesumit, quàm datum est ab Authore: He is unworthy of the Lord, that Ministereth this Sacrament otherwise, then Christ delivered it. For he cannot be devout, that presumeth to use it otherwise, than it was first delivered from Christ the author. These words seem somewhat to touch M. harding, and his Company. But here he is contented, to allow us the very Sacrament, and true use of Baptism, and that available, and of force for the Remission of Sins. Whereby unadvisedly, and unwares he confesseth, that we have the very True Catholic Church of God. For S. Augustine saith truly, Baptismus Ecclesiae potest esse extra Ecclesiam: 
De Con. Dist. 4 Ecclesia.  munus autem Beatae vitae non nisi intra Ecclesiam invenitur: The Baptism of the Church may be without the Church: but the gift of Blessed life is not found, but within the Church. But why he alloweth us this Sacrament, rather than the other, it were a hard matter to discuss. Neither may we justly require reason of him that speaketh so much without reason.  
Perhaps he will sat, Baptism is but a light Sacrament, & may be ministered by any Lay person, even by an old Woman, or by a girl, so that she speak Latin, and understand not, what she say. For otherwise, I trow, her doing may not stand for good. Certainly, whereas M. harding speaketh of the dew Form of Words, according to Christ's Institution, his own Doctors tell us, 
De Conse. Dist. 4. Si non.  and avouch it for great Truth, that if the Priest say thus, Ego te Baptizo in nomine Patris, & filii, & Spiritus Sancti, & Diaboli: That is, I. Baptize thee in the name of the Father, 
De Conse. Dist. 4. Retulerunt.  and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and of the Devil: Or if he say thus, as one ignorant Priest sommetime said, Ego te Baptizo in nomine Patria, & Filia, & Spirita Sancta, yet the Form of Baptism is very good.  
But one great fault M. harding findeth in our doings, for that we have left out a great many Holy rites, his Chrism, his Oil, his Salt, his Spittle, and such other like things: and for that we minister this Sacrament plainly, & simply, as Christ commanded. This objection being of no greater weight, may easily discharge itself, & therefore may pass well without farther answer.  
M. harding saith, there be Seven Sacraments, which, as he saith, do not only signify a Holy thing, but also do Sanctify, and make holy those, to whom they be adhibited, being such as by Institution of Christ contain Grace in them, and power to sanctify. Here, to leaus the rest, it might be demanded, how can Matrimony Sanctify a Man, & make him Holy: 
To Contain Grace.  or by what Institution of Christ containeth it Grace in itself, and Power to Sanctific? Or if it cannot Sanctify, nor have such Grace, how then can it be called a Sacrament?  
I grant, the Ancient Learned Fathers, entreating of the Sacraments, have often used vehement, 
Council Nicen.  and great words. It is written in the Council of Nice, Vides Aquam? Considera Vim Divinam, quae in Aquis Latet. Puta, Aquam esse plenam Ignis Divini. Seest thou the Water? Consider the divine Power that lieth Hid in the Water, Imagine, that the Water is full of Heavenly Fiere. So S. Ambrose, Spiritus Sanctus descendit, 
Ambros. De Samen. Li. 1. Cap. 5. Tertul. De Batismo.  & Aquam consecrate. Adest Praesentia Trinitatis: The Holy Ghost cometh down, and halloweth the Water. There is the Presence of the Trinity. So saith Tertullian, In Baptismo tingimur Passione Christi: In Baptism we are washed with the Passion of Christ. So saith Chrysostom, as M. harding hath here alleged him, Baptism is full of Power, and Grace: So saith S. Cyprian: so say others.  
All these, and other like vehement speeches M. Harding mitigateth, and qualifieth in this wise: We mean, saith he, that Sacraments contain Grace, after such manner of speaking, as we say, Potions, and drinks contain health. That is to say, Sacraments verily, and in deed contain not the Grace of God. For drinks, and Potions verily, 
4. Reg. 4.  and in deed contain not the health of the patient. In this manner of speech the Children of the Prophets said to Elizaeus the Prophet, Mors in olla, Vir Dei: 
Prou. 18. johan. 5.  O thou man of God, Death is in the Pot. So Solomon saith, Death, and Life are in the hands of the tongue. So Christ saith unto the Phariseis, Search the Scriptures: for in them you think to have everlasting Life. Therefore one M. hardings School Doctous saith, 
johan. De Parisijs, De Potestate Regia, Cap. 26.  In Sacramentis Ecclesiae, specialis Virtus Passionis Christi continetur, sicut Virtus agentis in instrumento: The special Grace of the Passion of Christ is contained in the Sacraments of the Church, as the Power of the works is contained in the instrument, wherewith he worketh.  
But in deed, it is the Soul of man, and not the Creature of Bread, or Water, that receiveth the Grace of God. We have need of God's Grace: These corruptible elements need it not. Without Faith of our part Sacraments be not only unprofitable to us, 
Chryso. in Matthae. Operis Imperfe. Homil. 43.  but also hurtful. S. Chrysostame saith, Vbi est Virtus evangelii? In Figuris literarum, an in intellectu sensuum? Where is the Power of the Gospel? In the forms of the letters, or else in the understanding of the meaning?  
Likewise Bonaventura saith, 
Bonaven in 4. Sen. dist. 1. Qu. 3.  Nullo modo dicendum est, quòd Gratia continetur in ipsis Sacramentis essentialiter, tanquam Aqua in Vase, vel Medicina in Pyxide. Imò hoc intelligere est erroneum. Sed dicuntur continere Gratiam, quia eam signicant: We may not in any wise saié, that the Grace of God is contained substantially, and verily in the Sacraments, as Water is contained in the Vessel, or a Medicine in the Box. For so to say, it were enoneous. But we say, the Sacraments contain the Grace of God: 
Eodem loco.  because they signify the Grace of God. Again he saith, Gratia est in anima, non in Signis visibilibus: The Grace of God is, not in the visible Signs, but in the Soul. And again he saith, Ad illud, quod obijcitur, quòd remissio Peceatorum Latet in Baptismo, dicendum est, quòd hoc intelligiturede latentia Signati in Signo: quod quidem habet ulteriorem rationem, quàm rationem Significandi: non tamen essentialiter continendi in se: sed quia ipsum, quod Signat, continetur in anima: To the Objection, that is made, that the Romission of Sins is Hid in Baptism, we must answer thus, that it must be taken of the thing Signified hid in the Sign. Which thing nevertheless hath a farther meaning, then to Signify: yet not to contain (the Remission of Sins) verily, and Substantially in itself: but that the Grace, that is Signified thereby, is contained in the Soul.  
The Mystical signification, 
forms, and Accidents.  that M. Harding hath imagined, of his Shows, and Accidents, that the forms of Bread, and Wine outwardly represent the Spiritual nourishing of the Soul, is vain, and fantastical, without the witness of any ancient Doctor, or Father, confirmed only by the Authority of himself. For what manner of feeding is there is these Accidents, and Holy forms? Or how can that thing, that feedeth not the Body, represent unto us the Spiritual feeding of the Soul?  
The matter is plain enough of itself, and needeth no cavil. The Signification, and Substance of the Sacrament is to show us, how we are fed with the Body of Christ: that is, that like as Material Bread feedeth our Body, so the Body of Christ nailed on the Cross, embraced, and eaten by Faith, feedeth the Soul. The like Representation is also made in the Sacrament of Baptism: that as our Body is washed clean with Water, so our Soul is washed clean with Christ's Blood. 
Augustin. Epist. 23.  Therefore S. Augustine saith, Nisi Sacramenta similitudinem quandam earum rerum, quarum sacramenta sunt, haberent, omninò Sacramenta non essent: If Sacraments had not a certain likeness, and representation of the things, whereof they be Sacraments, then in deed they were no Sacraments. This Representation Rabanus Maurus expoundeth thus, 
Rabanus Li. 2. Cap. 31.  Quia Panis Corpora confirmat, ideò ille congruenter Corpus Christi nuncupatur: Et quia vinum Sanguinem operatur in Carne, ideò refertur ad Sanguinem: Because (not the Accidents, or forms of Bread, but) Bread itself confirmeth the Body, therefore it is conveniently called the Body of Christ: And because Wine worketh blood in the flesh, therefore it hath relation unto the Blood.  
So likewise saith Druthmarus, 
Druthmarus in Matthae. ca 26.  Vinum laetificat, & Sanguinem auget: & ideò non inconuenienter Sanguis Christi per hoc figuratur: (not the Accidents or forms of Wine, but) Wine itself rejoiceth the heart, and increaseth blood: And therefore the Blood of Christ conveniently is thereby signified.  
M. harding, for that he cannot utterly deny it, the matter being so plain, is therefore contented to grant, that the Sacrament is the Figure of Christ's Body. But to help out, and to shift the matter, he hath devised such a strange kind of Figure, as seldom hath been heard before. notwithstanding the Holy Learned Fathers speak plainly, and simply, and use no kind of such Gloss. 
Hierony. adversus Ruffinum.  S. Jerome saith, Ad Tropicam intelligentiam sermo referatur. Quando dico, Tropicam, docco verum non esse, quod dicitur, sed allegoriae nubilo figuratum: Let that sateinge be expounded by a Figure. When I say, a Figure, I say, the thing that is spoken, is not true in deed, but Figured under the cloud of an Allegory. Likewise Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in Genesin, Homi. 35.  Audisti, fuisse Figuram. Ne ergo mirare, neque omnia require in typo. Neque enim typus esset, si omnia, quae Veritati accidunt, haberentur: Ye have heard, that it was a Figure. Therefore maiveise not: and being a Figure, require not all things to agree. 
Augustin. De Doctrinae Christiana, li. 3. ca 5.  For otherwise it were no Figure. So likewise S. Augustine saith, in Principio cavendum est, ne Figuratam locutionem ad literam accipias. Ad hoc enim pertinet, quod ait Apostolus, Litera occidit. Cùm enim Figuratè dictum sic accipitur, tanquam proriè dictum sit, Carnaliter sapitur: neque ulla mors animae congruentiùs appellatur: first of all thou must take heed, that thou take not a Figurative Speech according to the Letter. For that is it, whereof S. Paul saith, The Letter Killeth. For, when the thing, that is spoken under a Figure, is so taken, as if it were plainly spoken, there is a fleshly understanding. Neither is there any thing, that may better be called the death of the Soul. 
Articulo. 12.  All this, and much more to like purpose, thou mayst find in my Former Reply to M. harding.  
another fantasy M. harding hath, that the Sacraments of the New Law work the thing itself, 
Sàcram. Old. New.  that they signify, through Virtue, as he saith, given unto them by God's ordinance, to special effects of Grace. This, as I said, is but a fantasy. For the Sacraments of the Old Law, 
1. Corin. 10.  and of the New, in Truth, and Substance are all one. S. Paul saith, Omnes eundem cibum Comederunt: 
Hilari. in Psalnum 67.  The Fathers in the Old Law, did all eat the same meare, that is to say, the same Christ, that we eat. S. Hilary saith, Sub nube fuerunt, & Christo, aquam Petra praebente, 
Leo De Nativita Domini, Sermone. 3.  potati sunt: They were under the Cloud, and were drenched with Christ, the Rock giving them water. Likewise saith Leo: Mysteria pro temporum ratione variata sunt: quum Fides, qua vivimus, nulla fuerit aetate diversa: The Sacraments are astered according to the diversity of the times. But the Faith, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 26.  whereby we live, in all ages was ever one. Likewise S. Augustine, Sacramenta illa fuerunt, in Signis diversa: in rebus, quae significabantur, paria: These things were Sacraments, in the outward tokens, diverse: but in the things tokened, all one with ours.  
M. harding will reply: 
Augustin. in Psalm. 73.  S. Augustine saith, Sacramenta Novi Testamenti dant Salutem: The Sacraments of the New Testament give Salvation. But who can better expound S. Augustine's meaning, then S. Augustine himself? He addeth immediately: Cùm ergo iam teneas promissa, quid quaeris promittentia salvatorem? Hoc dico, teneas promissa: non quòd iam acceperimus Viram aeternam, Sed quòdiam Christus Venerit, qui per Prophetas praenuntiabatur: Wherefore, seeing thou haste the Promises (of the coming of Christ) already performed, what seekest thou the things, that Promised the saviour? I say, Thou haste the Promises already performed: not for that we have already received everlasting life, but for that Christ is already come, that was promised by the Prophets. Therefore, when S. Augustine saith, Our Sacraments give Salvation, his meaning is this, Our Sacraments teach us, 
Augustin contra Faustum, Li. 19 Ca 14.  that Salvation is already come into the World. Thus S. Augustine saith in an other place: Illa fuerunt Promissiones rerum complendarum: haec sunt indicia completarum: The Sacraments of the Old Law were Promises of such things, as should afterv word be accomplished: Our Sacraments of the New Law are takens, that the same Promises be already accomplished. Thus the Holy Fathers say, The Sacraments of the New Law work Salvation: because they teach us, that our Salvation is already wrought. So Bonaventura saith of the Sacraments of the Old Testament, 
Bonaventura. in 4. Senten. dis. 1. In Procemio.  Mundare dicebantur: id est, mundatum ostendebant: They were said to make a man clean, because they showed, or signified, that a man was made clean.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 1.  
And we do expressly pronounce, that in the lords Supper there is Truly given unto the believing the Body and Blood of our Lord, the Flesh of the Son of God, which quickeneth our Souls, the Meat that cometh from above, the food of Immortality, or Grace, Truth, & Life: And the same Supper to be the communton of the Body, and Blood of Christ: by the partaking whereof we be revived, streghtened, and fed unto Immortality: and whereby we are joined, United, & Incorporate unto Christ, that we may abide in him, and he in us.  

M. harding.  
What ye proncunce of this high Sacrament, the wise and careful tenderers of their souls will be right ware thereof. Of you and such as ye be, because your Doctrine is 
* In respect of this Corner, the Church of Rome were a simple corner.  but of a corner of the world in respect of the Universal Church, 
Matt. 24.  hath given us a watch word, Nolite credere, 
The Sacramentaries lords supper.  believe them not. In your the lords supper, celebrated by the Ministers of your own creation, 
* Untruths, joined with Heathenish blasphemies.  there is not geeven the Body and Blood of our Lord, neither to the believing, nor to the unbelieving. For at the celebration of your schismatical supper, no * consecration being done, * nor Faith of the Church, * not right intention had, * nor Christ's institution observed, what deliver ye to your communicantes, but * a piece of Bread, and a * sip of Wine? Neither is it * your will it be more or better. At the supper of Our Lord ministered in the Catholic Church by Priests rightly consecrated, 
judas received the true body of Christ, no less then th'apostles. Math. 26. Chrysost. Homil. de Proditione judae. Augustin. in Psal. 10.  and as it hath been accustomed in Christ's Church, there is the true and whole Body of our Lord and savour geeven and received, be the receivers believing, or 
* Vnttuthe, Read tile Answer.  not believing. For when Christ gave this Sacrament to his Disciples at his last supper, after that he had consecrated the same, saying, take ye, eat ye, this is my Body: judas the traitor, as the * Father's teach, received his true Body no less then Peter, Andrew, john, or james did: though they to their salvation, he to his damnation.  
Now it is to be noted, how this Defender in this long sentence affecteth a certain holy (as it were) and solemn eloquence, and useth a religious amplification of Words, to set forth the sacrament, as though he had a reverent and a godly opinion of it: whereas in deed he taketh it 
* Untruth. For we call the Sign the Sign: and the Truth, the Truth.  but for a poor sign or token, as their doctor Zuinglius doth. But such is their craft, to purchase them credit among the people. Thus offer they to the unlearned their fair cups full of venom, anointing the brims with Honey of sweet and Holy words, the rather to poison them. Such complaint maketh the grave Father S. Hilary against the Arians of his time, Ingerunt nobis primum nomina Veritaùs, 
De trinit. Li. 6.  ut virus falsitatis introeat. Bonum in Ore est, ut de cord malum subeat: first (saith he) they thrust me forth words of truth, that the venom of falsehood mate enter in. Good is in their mouth, that out from the heart may evil proceed. And among all these words (he meaneth the Arians confession of their faith) I hear no where by them said, Deum dei filium: God the son of God. Right so among all these fair words concerning the Sacrament, 
* O marvelous horrible Heresi: what Doctor, or Father ever named your Real Presence●  we hear never a whit said of the real presence of Christ's Body. 
Contra Ariomanitas, Haeresi. 69. De gratia Christi, contra Pelagium & Coelest. li. 1. Cap. 32. Matth. 13.  Epiphanius noteth the like craft in Arius, and so doth S. Augustine in the Pelagians. Nestorius likewise spoke honourably in many places of Christ and his Mother. But now here would he call her 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, the Mother of God. The jews also, as we find in the Gospel, called our saviour jesus the Carpenter's son, confessed Mary to be his Mother, james, joseph, Simon, and Jude, his brothers, and that his sisters were among them (by whom his kins folk are to be understanded) but the son of God they would not acknowledge him, nor in that degree honour him. Better then to those jews can I not compare these Defenders, who speak honourably of our lords Body and Blood in their supper: 
* Neither did any Doctor or Father Ever say, that Christ's Body is Really, and Verily in the Sacraments.  but that his Body is really, that it is verily in the Sacrament of the altar, that will not the Devil who reigneth in their hearts, suffer their mouths to utter.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
M. harding telleth us, we deliver unto the faithful nothing else, but a piece of Bread, and a slppe of Wine: that we have neither Intention, nor Consecration: that our fair Cups be full of Venom: That our Supper is Schismatical: that our Eloquence is Hypocritical: that our Doctrine is Heretical: that we are like to the Pelagians, to the Nestorians, to the Arians, and to the lews: and that the Devil reigneth in our hearts. If the Truth of God were evermore joined with vain speech, than might M. harding be able easily to win the price. He saith, Our Doctrine is but in a Corner of the world, and that therefore Christ hath given this watch word of us, Believe them not. How be it, if he would advisedly consider the matter, and look well about him, he should find, that so many Kingdoms, and Countries, and Commonweals, as this day profess the Gospel of Christ, would make a good large Corner in the Church of God. Certainly in respect thereof, Rome itself were a very poor Corner.  
Unto whom Christ specially pointed, 
2. Thessalon. ●  when he said these words, Believe them not, because it is a prophesy, it is hard to judge. But it is very likely, he meant antichrist, that Man of Sin, the Child of destruction, that avanceth himself above all that is called God. 
Consecration.  Verily Chrysostom thereof saith thus: Non dico, 
Chrysost. in Mat. Homil. 49.  si dixerint vobis, Ecce in Haereticis Ecclesijs illis, vel in illis apparuit Christus: sed etiam si in ipsis veris Ecclesijs, quae Dei sunt, id est, domus vestrae, dixerint vobis, Christum apparuisse, nolite eis credere dicentibus ista de me: quia non est digna Divinitatis meae notitla haec: Ostendens per haec, quomodò ex ipsis Ecclesijs veris frequenter exeunt Seductores. Proptereà nec ipsis omninò credendum est, nisi ea dicant, vel faciant, quae convenientia sint Scriptures: I say not, if they tell you, Behold Christ hath appeared in these, or these Churches of Heretics: But if they shall say unto you, that Christ bathe appeared in the very true Churches, that are of God, that is to say, that are your houses, Believe them not, if they say thus of me: for this is no worthy knowledge of my Divinity: By these he showeth, how that out of the very true Churches oftentimes come forth deceivers. Therefore we may not believe no not them, unless they speak, or do those things, that are agreeable to the Scriptures.  
Verily, how so ever M. harding will shift this matter, the plain words seem rather to touch him, and his company, then either Luther, or Zuinglius, or any other. For they can point with their fingers, and say, Here is Christ, and There is Christ. Behold, In this Pyre are three Christ's: in that five: in that seven: in that more. Therefore it is likely, that Christ giveth us this special watch word of them, and such others, Believe them not.  
Here M. harding maketh much ado about Consecration: and yet are not his Fellows well agreed, what to make of their own Consecration. Gabriel saith, 
Gabriel Biel. Lectio. 36.  Chritus potuit sine verbo tanquam verus Deus, Substantiam Panis, & Vini Consecrare: velure, potuit verba quaedam secretò proffer, & per illa Consecrare: velure, per haec Verba, Hoc est Corpus meum, Consecrare potuit: velure, potuit priùs Consecrare, & posteà distribuere: velure, primùm distribuere, & posteà Consecrare. Quid autem horum fecerit, ex Sacris Scripturis non constat: Christ, as being very God, might Consecrate the Substance of Bread and Wine without word: Or else, he might speak certain words in secret, and by them Consecrate: Or else, he might Consecrate by these words, This is my Body: Or else, he might first Consecrate, and after deliver: Or else, first deliver, and after Consecrate. But which of all these he did in deed, 
Bessarion de Sacramen. Eucharistia. Catharinus De Consecratione. Durandus Li. 4. De Sexta part Canonis. Petrus de Alliaco, in. 4. Senten. quae. 5. Antididagma. Bonaventura in 4 Senten. dist. 8. quae. 2.  by the Holy Scriptures it appeareth not. Cardinal Bessarion saith, that in the Latin Church Consecration is wrought by the words of Christ: in the Greek Church by other Prayers, that follow afterward. Catharinus entreating purposely hereof, saith, Christ Consecrated not with the same words, that are now used in the Mass, This is my Body. Durandus saith, Christ Consecrated by his Divine power, and after Consecration said, This is my Body. Petrus Alliacensis yieldeth this reason hereof, Quia, nisi antè fuisset Corpus Christi, Christus non verè dixisset, Hoc est Corpus meum: If it had not been Christ's Body before, Christ could not have said truly, This is my Body. It is concluded in a Book called Antididagma. lately set forth by the Chapter of Colaine. that the bare words of Christ's Institution, without the words of the Canon of the Mass, are not sufficient to work Consecration. Bonaventura saith, To have the true Form of Consecration, we must seek, not to the Gospel of Christ, but to the Canon. How be it, thereof groweth a great inconvenience, that Christ, and his Apostles, for that they had not the words of the Canon, had therefore no Consecration. Again Bonaventura saith, that these words, Novi, & Aeterni Testamenti, are not of the substance of Consecration: but are used only as a furniture. 
Scotus in. 4. Senten. dis. 8. quae. 2.  johannes Scotus saith, Quod ergo est consilium? Dico, quòd Sacerdos intendens facere, quod facit Ecclesia, legens distinctè verba Canonis, à Principio usque ad finem, verè consicit: nec est tutum alicui, reputare se valde peritum in scienua sua, & dicere, volo uti praecisè istis verbis pro Consecratione: The matter being so doubtful, what then is your Counsel? I say, that the Priest intending to do, what so ever the Church doth, and reading the words of the Canon distinctly, and plainly, from the beginning to the end, doth verily Consecrate. Neither is it good for a man to reckon himself very skilful in his knowledge, and to say, I will use precisely these, or these words to work Consecration. Where also these words are specially noted in the Margin, Nota, quòd de hae materia, Doctor nihil hîc asserit, sed probabiliter aliquid dicens, sub dubio relinquit: Here mark, that touching this matter (of Consecration) the Doctor avoucheth nothing: but speaking somewhat by the way of likelihood, he leaveth the whole matter under doubt. In the end Scotus uncertainly, and doubtfully concludeth thus: unde dicunt aliqui, quòd Forma Graecorum, 
Scotus in. 4. Senten dis. 8. quae. 2.  & Forma nostra, & quaecunque scripta in Euangelijs, sufficiens est ad Consecrationem: Whereof some say thus, that the Form of words, that the Greeks use, and the Form that we use, and any Form else written in the Gospels is sufficient to Consecration. The like certainty Bonaventura teacheth us: For thus he endeth: 
Bonaventura in 4. Senten. dist. 8.  De hoc est utilius dubitare: Quis enim potest scire, utrùm Euangelistae, aut Apostolus ipse intenderint describete Formam? Igitur melius est, hîc piè dubitare, quàm praesumptuosé definire: Hereof it is best to stand in doubt. For who can tell, whether the Evangelists, or the Apostle Paul himself, meant to write us the Form of Consecration? Therefore in this point it is better, Soberly to doubt, then presumptuously to determine.  
By these few, good Christian Reader, thou mayst see the ground, and certainty of M. hardings Doctrine. He saith, We have no Consecration, for that we lack a Thing: but what Thing it should be, he, and his Fellows cannot tell.  
How be it, in deed we use the same words that Christ used. If Christ, and his Apostles Consecrated, then do we undoubtedly likewise Consecrate. The want, that he findeth in us, he may also find in them. S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta 80. Origen in Matt. Cap. 15. Ambros. De ijs qui intiantur, Cap. 9  Accedat Verbum ad Elementum, & fit Sacramentum: join the Word of God unto the Element (or outward Creature) and thereby is made a Sacrament. Origen saith, Parus sanctificatur per Verbum Dei, & Obsecrationem: The Bread is Consecrate by the Word of God, and by Prayer. S. Ambrose saith, Ante Benedictionem Verborum Coelestium, alia species nominatur: post Consecrationem, Corpus Christi Significatur: Before the Blessing of the Heavenly words, it is called an other kind: After Consecration, the Body of Christ is Signified.  
another quarrel, that M. harding piketh to us, is, that we have no Intention, or mind to Consecrate. But how long hath M. harding been a Wisarde? 
1. Corinth. 2. Articulo. 1. Divisione. 12. Summa Angel. Eucharisita. 26. Gerson in Floretum, Lib. 4. Panormtian. de Celebratione Miss. Quidam.  Or who made him so privy to our Intention? S. Paul saith, Noman can tell, what is in Man, but the Spirit of Man, that is within him. These follies are answered at large in my Former Reply to M. harding. Verily by the late Doctors of that side, the Priest may have Intention, to Consecrate the one half of the Host, and not the other: Or, having thirteen Hosts, he may have Intention, to Consecrate but twelve. And thereof groweth a great question, when he cometh to the reckoning, and seeth his error, which of all that whole Company of Hosts shall go unconsecrate. Yea Abbate Panormitane saith, Etiamsi Sacerdos celebret, ut Deus perdat aliquem, tamen bene Consecrat: notwithstanding the Priest say Mass, with Intention, that God would destroy some man, yet doth he Consecrate nevertheless. Into such toys these men throw themselves, with their fond Intentions.  
Our Intention is, 
Matthae. 26. 1. Corin. 11.  to do, that Christ hath taught us to do, that is, to Minister the Holy Sacrament in Remembrance of him: and, as S. Paul saith, to show forth, and to publish the lords Death, until he come. And to this purpose one of M. hardings own Doctors saith, Non sufficit Intentio Consecrandi absolutè: 
The wicked receiveth.  Sed Oportet, ut sit conformis Intentioni Sacramentum Instituentis: Absolutely the Intention, to Consecrate, is not sufficient: but it must be answerable unto the Intention of Christ, 
Pupilla Oculi, De Eucharistia, ca 5.  that ordained the Sacrament.  
At the Supper of our Lord, saith M. harding, ministered in the Catholic Church, by Priests rightly Consecrate, there is the true, and whole Body of Our Lord and savour given, and received: be the receivers believing, or not believing. 
De Consecra. Dis. 2. Qui bene. In Glossa. Alexand. Halen. Par. 4. quae. 45. memb. 1.  This is no great marvel in M. hardings Doctrine. For they of his side say, Si dicatur, quòd Mus sumat Corpus Christi, non est magnum inconuenines: If it be said, that a Mouse receiveth the Body of Christ, it is no great inconvenience. And Alexander of Hales a notable School Doctor saith, though in more unséeingly, & grosser wise, Si Canis, vel Porcus deglutiret Hostiam Consecratam integram, non video quare Corpus Domini non simul traijcertur in ventrem Canis, vel Porci: If a Dog, or a Sow should happen to swallow down the whole Host being Consecrate, I see no reason, but the body of our Lord may pass withal into the belly of the Dog, or of the Sow.  
But S. Augustine saith far otherwise, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta 26. Origen in Matt. Cap. 15.  Hoc est manducare illam escam, & illum potum bibere, in Christo manner, & Christum manentem in se habere: This is the eating of that meat, and the Drinking of that Drink, that a man dwell in Christ, and have Christ dwelling in him. Likewise Origen saith, Est verus Cibus, quem nemo malus potest edere. Etenim si malus posset edere Corpus Domini, non scriberetur, Qui edit hunc panem, viver in aeternum: The Body of christ is the True Food, which no evil man can Eat, Before if the evil man could Eat the Body of Our Lord, it should not be written, 
Articulo. 23.  He that Eateth this Bread, shall live for ever. But hereof we have spoken more at large in the Former Reply to M. harding.  
The Heretical Doctrine, that M. harding talketh of, with all the whole forniture of Hypocritical Eloquence, we may safely send home, from whence it came. And I doubt nothing, but he can well tell, how to use it.  
As for Pelagius, Arius, and Nestorius, we defy them utterly, and detest them, as we do also all other sorts, and sects of Heresies.  
Of the Sacraments of Christ, we do both speak, and think reverently, and as it becometh us, and according to the Holy Scriptures. We say, that a Creature is a Creature: that a Sacrament is a Sacrament, 
Augustin in johan. tracta 59 Contra Maximin. Cap. 22.  and not God, We say with S. Augustine, The Sacrament is not our Lord, but the Bread of our Lord Again S. Augustine saith, In Sacramentis videndum est, non quid sint, sed quid Significent: In Sacraments we must consider, not what they be in deed, but what they Signify.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 2.  
Besides this, we acknowledge, there be two Sacraments, which we judge properly aught to be called by this name: that is to say, Baptism, and the Sacrament of thanksgiving. For thus many we see were delivered and sanctified by Christ, and well allowed of the Old Fathers, Ambrose, and Augustine, & such others.  

M. harding.  
Why speak ye not plainly? 
The Defenders acknowledge but two Sacraments.  Be there no more but two Sacraments? Though ye say not so expressly, yet we judge, that so ye mean. For so your scholefelowe of Geneva Theodore Beza pronounceth in plain terms in the Confession of your Genevian Faith. And so yourselves, Defenders, do affirm in the Articles, which ye agreed upon in your Convocation holden at London in the year of our Lord. 1562. Which Articles ye have put forth 〈◊〉 print by the Queen's Authority, as ye pretend. Now whereas ye acknowledge there be but two Sacraments, why should any man believe you, 
Diversity of judgement in the Gospelers about the number of the Sacraments.  rather than the Germans your first Schoolmasters, who 
* Untruth fond and vain.  in their Confession exhibited to Charles the fifth then Emperor at Augspurge in the name of all the Protestants, Anno. 1530. appoint three Sacraments, Baptism, the eucharist, and Penance? The next year after, 
‡ Untruth, proceeding of unadvised malice, Read the answer.  Philip Melanchthon in his Apology avouched those three Sacraments: but afterward in the year. 1552. he found out an other, and made up the number of four, by adding the Sacrament of Order to the foresaid three. In Lipsia they receive three: In Wittenberg, which City is not thence far of, they have four. At Magdeburg thereby also Flacius Illyricus, and so many as follow him, will have but two: and the Zwenckfeldians, that spring out of the same stock, care for none at al.  
Forasmuch as ye allege the names of the Old Fathers for you, specially S. Ambrose, 
That there be more Sacraments than two by the Doctrine of the Fathers Cap. 104. The Sacrament of Confirmation.  and S. Augustine, that there be but two Sacraments, let us see how much they make for maintenance of yo●● Doctrine, and whether they teach us not, that there be more S. Augustine in his second Books ●●ira literas Petiliani, speaking of the place of the Psalm, Sicut unguentum in capite, which the Heretic had alleged, saith thus: In hoc unguento, etc. In this oinctement his will is to interpret the Sacrament of Chrism (he meaneth the Sacrament of Confirmation) which in the kind of visible signs is Holy, as Baptism is. Lo, S. Augustine calleth cofirmation a Sacrament. S. Eusebius Pope namethe it a Sacrament in his third epistle written to all the Bis●hoppes of Tuscia and Campania: Manus impositionis Sacramentum, etc. The Sacrament of imposition of Hands (saith he) is to be kept with great reverence, which cannot be performed but by the high Priests, (he understandeth Bishops). Melchiades next to Sylvester before the Nicene Council speaking much of Confirmation, among other things saith thus. Duo haec Sacramenta, Baptismi, 
This forged Melciades avanceth his Oil above the Sacrament of Baptism.  & confirmationis, separanda non sunt: These two Sacraments of Baptism, and Confirmation, may not be sundered. Though these two Bishops were Popes, yet they deserve credit, forasmuch as they lived before that corruption crept into the Church, after your account, and died Holy Martyrs.  
That Penance is a Sacrament, 
The Sacrament of Penance. Cap. 66. Homil. 20. in epist. ad Heb.  and so accounted among the Fathers, it is so evident, that who doubteth of it, may seem not to have perused their writings. S. Augustine in enchiridio ad Laurentium speaking of Baptism and Penance, calleth both, Salutaria Sacramenta, healthful Sacraments. S. Ambrose signifieth himself to be of the same mind, in his first Book de Poentientia, Cap. 6. &. 7. and in the second Book, Cap. 2. though without putting thexpress name of Sacrament. But in the third Chapter of that Book he putteth the name of Sacrament expressly.  
touching Order, 
The Sacrament of Order.  that is a Sacrament, also by verdict of S. Augustine, whom ye allege for you. Let us hear what he saith. In his second Book contra epist. Parmentani Cap. 13. these be his words, where he speaketh of Baptism, and of the Power to Baptize, which is given in the Sacrament of Order: Vtrunque evim Sacramentum est, & quadam consecratione utiunque homini datur, illud cum Baptizatur, istud cum ordinatur. Ideo in Catholica non licet utrunque iterari: Either of them is a Sacrament, and with a certain Consecration either is given to man: the one when he is baptized, the other when he taketh Orders. Therefore in the Catholic Church it is not lawful either of them to be taken twice.  
For the Sacrament of wedlock, besides other good and sufficient proofs, that it is a Sacrament, we have sundry testimonies out of S. Augustine, 
The Sacrament of wedlock. Lib. de Fide & Operib. c. 7.  and other Doctors. In the Church (saith S. Augustine) not only the band of marriage, but also the Sacrament is so commended, that it is not lawful for the husband to deliver his Wife to another. He calleth wedlock a Sacrament in many places of his works. De bono coniugali. Cap. 7. 18. and in the. 24. Chapter of that Book he saith: Haec omnia bona sunt, propter quae nuptiae bonae sunt, Proles, Fides, Sacramentum: All these things be good, for which marriage is good, issue, Faith, the Sacrament.  
Of extreme Unction, 
The Sacrament of extreme Unction. jacob. 5. Lib. 3. de sacerdo.  who doubteth whether it be a Sacrament, let him read the Epistle of Innocentrus the first ad Decentium Eugubinum Episcopum, Cap. 8. where most plainly treating of it, he nameth it a Sacrament. Chrysostom interpreteth the place of S. james epistle for this Sacrament. And so doth Bede, alleging the place of S. james, the sixth of Mark, the Authority of Innocentius, and the custom of the Church. seeing then we have found the 
* Untruth. For the Ancient Faneure reckon precisely Seven only Sacraments,  seven sacraments expressly mentioned in the Fathers, 
Number of Sacraments.  according to the teaching of the Catholic Church: whereas ye teach men to believe there be but two, and pretend that the Fathers spoke of nomo: 
* As this is true, so we desire further credit.  I trust from henceforth they will take better advise, how they believe your bare Word without all prouse, and with certain danger of their souls, forsake the Doctrine of the Church, which is the sure Pillour, 
1. Timot. 3.  and ground of truth, as S. Paul saith. In this great point, Beza, and ye of that side be manifestly found liars.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
To spend words without cause, is affliction of the Spirit, and loss of time. M. harding here bestoweth much labour, and allegeth many Doctors, to win that thing, that he might easily have obtained without any such ado. For, gentle Reader, left that thou be deceived, and think, there is some weight in this heap of feathers, we will grant without force, and freely, that the Holy Catholic Fathers have made mention, not only of Seven, as M. harding here accounteth them, but also of Seventeen sundry Sacraments. 
a Tertul. Aduersus jud. cos.  Tertullian calleth the Helve, wherewith Elizaeus recovered the Axe out of the water, Sacramentum Ligni, the Sacrament of Wood: And the whole state of the Christian Faith, he calleth 
b Tertull. contra. Marcionem, li. 4.  Religionis Christianae Sacramentum, The Sacrament of Christian Religion. 
c Augustin. in Epist. 112.  
d Augustin. in Sermone De Sanctis. 19  S. Augustine in many places hath Sacramentum Crucis, The Sacrament of the Cross. Thus he saith, In hac Crucis Figura continetur Sacramentum: In this Figure, or Form of the Cross there is contained a Sacrament. So saith Leo, 
e Leo de Resurrectione Domini, Sermo. 2.  Crux Christi, quae saluandis est impensa Fidelibus, & Sacramentum est, & exemplum: The Cross of Christ, which was given to save the faithful, is both a Sacrament, and also a Sampler. S. Jerome saith, 
f Hieronym. ad Oceanum.  E latere Christi Baptismi, atque Martyrij pariter sacrament funduntur: Out of Christ's side the Sacraments of Baptism, and martyrdom are powered forth both together. 
* Inter Decreta Leonis, Cap. 14.  Leo calleth the promiss of Virginity, Sacramentum: Quid eos manebit, qui corruperine foedera Divini Sacramenti? What shall become of them, that have broken the covenant of the Heavenly Sacrament? 
g Augustin. De Peccator merit. & remiss. Li 2.  The Bread, that was given unto the Novices, or Beginners in the Faith, called Catechumeni, before they were baptized, of S. Augustine is called a Sacrament, 
h Hilar. in Matt. Canon 11. &. 12. & Canon. 23.  S. Hilary in sundry places saith, Sacramentum Orationis: Sacramentum Esuritionis: Sacramentum Scripturarum: Sacramentum Fletus: Sacramentum Sitis: The Sacrament of Prayer: The Sacrament of fasting: The Sacrament of the Scriptures: The Sacrament of Weeping: The Sacrament of Thirst. 
i Bernard. in Sermo. De Coena Domini.  S. bernard calleth the washing of the Apostles foete, a Sacrament: Ablutio Pedum Sacramentum est quotidianorum peccatorum: The Wasshinge of feet is the Sacrament of daily Sins.  
Thus many, and many more Sacraments, it had been easy for M. harding to have found in the Catholic Learned Fathers. Yet, I trow, he will not say, that either the Helve of an Axe, or the whole Religion of Christ, or a Cross printed in the forehead, or martyrdom, or the Scriptures, or a Vow of Virginity, or the Bread given to the Catechumeni, or Prayer, or fasting, of weeping, or thirst, or washing of feet, are the necessary seven Sacraments of the Church.  
How be it, we will not greatly strive for the name. It appeareth hereby, that many things, that in deed, and by special property be no Sacraments, may nevertheless pass under the general name of a Sacrament. But thus we say, It cannot be proved, neither by the Scriptures, nor by the Ancient Learned Fathers, that this Number is so specially appointed, and Consecrate to this purpose, or that there be neither more, nor less Sacraments in the Church, but only Seven.  
As for the Reasons, that they of M. hardings side have brought us for proof hereof, they are too Childish to be remembered. For thus they say,  

The Book in the Apocalyps hath Seven Seals: 
Apocalyp. 5.   
The Seven Angels there have Seven trumpets: 
Apocalyp. 8.   
Christ hath in his right hand Seven stars: 
Apocalyp. 7.   
Christ walketh in the mids of Seven golden Candlesticks: 
Apocalyp. 1.   
Zacharie saw Seven eyes upon a stone: 
Zachar. 3.   
There were Seven Candlesticks in the Tabernacle: 
Exod 37.    
Ergo, 
In Compendi● Theologiae.  say they, there must needs be just Seven Sacraments in the Church of God.  
But unto every necessary Sacrament of the Church, two things specially are required: that is, a Sensible outward Element, and the Word of Institution. And without either of these there is no Sacrament. Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 80.  Accedat Verbum ad Elementum, & fit Sacramentum: join the Word of Christ's Institution unto the sensible Creature, or outward Element: and thereof is made a Sacrament. The Element, or Creature in Baptism is Water: the Elements, or Creatures in Our lords Supper, are Bread, & Wine: The words of Institution are common, and known.  
The other five Sacraments want, either the Word, or the Element, or both together: As for example, Matrimony, Order, and Penance have the Word of God, but they have no outward Creature, or Element. Extreme Unction, and Confirmation have neither Word, nor Element. Therefore these five later, in proper use of speech, are not taken for Sacraments of the Church.  
For thus Alexander of Hales saith, 
Alexander. Halen. par. 4. qu●. 24. mem. 1.  Sacramentum Confirmationis, ut est Sacramentum, neque Dominus instituit, neque Apostoli: Sed postea institutum est in Concilio Meldensi: The Sacrament of Confirmation, as it is a Sacrament, was not ordained, either by Christ, or by the Apostles: but afterward in the Council of Melda.  
So likewise Durandus saith, Matrimonium strictè, & proprié loquendo, non est Sacramentum: 
Durandus.  Matrimony in dew, and proper kind of speech is no Sacrament.  
Now to that, we make account only of Two Sacraments, as instituted by Christ, 
Irenaeus. justin. Apol. 2. Tertul. 1. & 4. Con. Martion. Ambros. De Sacramen. Cyril. in Mystagogicis. Cyprian. Li. 2. Epist. 1. ad Steph. Augustin. De Doctrina Christian. Li. 3. ca 9 August. De Symbolo ad Catechumenos. Paschasius De Coena Domini.  wherewith M. harding findeth himself so much offended, it may please him to understand, that the ancient Learned Fathers, Irenaeus, justinus Martyr, Tertullian, S. Ambrose, Cyrillus Alexandrinus, and others, having occasion to entreat of purpose, and specially hereof, speak only of Two Sacraments, Baptism, and Our lords Supper, and name none other. S. Cyprian saith, Tunc demùm planè sanctificari, & esse filii Dei possunt, si utroque Sacramento nascantur: Then may they be thoroughly Sanctified, and become the Children of God, if they be new borne by both the Sacraments. S. Augustine saith, Quaedam Pauca pro multis, eademque factu facillima, & intellectu augustissima, & observatione castissima, ipse Dominus, & Apostolica tradidit disciplina: sicuti est Baptismi Sacramentum, & Celebratio Corporis, & Sanguinis Domini: Our Lord, and his Apostles have delivered unto us a few Sacraments in steed of many, and the same in doing most easy, in signification most excellent, in observation most reverend: as is the Sacrament of Baptism, and the Celebration of the Body, and Blood of Our Lord. Again, speaking of Baptism, and the Supper, he saith thus: Haec sunt Ecclesiae Gemina Sacramenta: These be the two Sacraments of the Church. Paschasius saith, Sunt Sacramenta Christi in Ecclesia Catholica, Baptismus, & Corpus, 
Two Sacraments  & Sanguis Domini: These be the Sacraments of Christ in the Catholic Church: Baptism, and the Body, and Blood of our Lord. To be short, Cardinal Bessarion saith, 
Bessarion De Sacramento Eucharistiae.  Haec Duo Sola Sacramenta in Euangelijs manifestè tradita legimus: We read, that these Only two Sacraments were delivered to us plainly in the Scriptures.  
Here hath M. harding in express words, Both the Sacraments, and the two sacraments, and the Only two Sacraments of the Church. judge thou now therefore, good Christian Reader, what truth thou mayst reckon to be in him, that saith, Beza, and they of this side are manifestly found liars.  
All these things notwithstanding, the late pretenced Council of trident with most horrible threats, and great Curses, concludeth the contrary: Si quis dixerit, 
Concil. Triden. Session. 7.  Sacramenta Novae Legis non fuisse omnia à jesu Christo Domino nostro instituta, aut esse Plura, vel pauciora, quàm septem, aut etiam aliquod horum non esse veré, & propriè Sacramentum, Anathema sit: If any man shall say, that the Sacraments of the New Law were not all ordained of Our Lord Jesus Christ: or that there be fewer, or more than seven: or that any one of the same, verily, and in proper use of speech is not a Sacrament, accursed be he.  
But ye say, Luther, and the Germans admit three Sacraments, Baptism, the lords Supper, and Penance: And Philip Melancthon afterward found out the fourth. O, M. harding, what is it, that thus inflameth your tongue to speak Untruth? If it had pleased you, to have seen it, Luther, & Melancthon plainly expressed their own meaning, and utterly removed all manner occasion of such cavils. 
In Captivitate Babylonica.  Luther writeth thus, Propriè ea visum est vocare Sacramenta, quae annexis Signis promissa sunt: Coetera, quia Signis alligata non sunt, nuda promissa sum. Quò fit, ut si rigidè loqui velimus, tantùm duo sint in Ecclesia Dei Sacramenta, Baptismus, & Panis: cùm in his Solis, & institutum divinitùs signum, & promissionem Remissionis Peccatorum videamus: In Proper speech those we call Sacraments, which are promised with signs annexed. The rest, that have no Signs, are bare promises. Wherefore speaking hereof precisely, and strictely, there are Only two Sacraments in the Church of God, Baptism, and the Bread: for as much as in these Only we find both the Sign ordained by God, and also the promiss of Remission of Sins. 
In Apologia Confessionis Augustinae.  Likewise Melancthon saith, He can well call Order, a Sacrament, so that it be known from Baptism, and the Supper, which in Proper speech, and verily be called Sacraments.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 3.  
We say, that Baptism is a Sacrament of the Remission of Sins, & of that washing, which we have in the Blood of Christ: and that no person, which will profess Christ's name, aught to be restrained, or kept back therefrom: no not the very Babes of Christians: forsomutche as they be borne in sin, and do pertain unto the people of God. 
Baptism very slenderly spoken of by the Defenders. Baptism taught by our New clergy to be but a Sign and seal of our new birth.   

M. harding.  
As ye acknowldege few Sacraments, so ye speak of them very slenderly. Baptism (ye say) is a Sacrament of the remission of sins, and of that washing which we have in the Blood of Christ. Now whereas ye mean, as within few lines ye declare, by the name of a Sacrament, 
* Untruth. For we say no● so.  no more but a Token or Sign, specially sith ye teach in your articles that Baptism at the best, is but a Sign, and Seal of our new birth: ye seem not to attribute to Baptism so much, as the Scripture doth. Neither is Baptism only a Sign or Token, that sins be remitted, but, we believe, as the Catholic Church, according to the Scriptures teacheth, that in, and by Baptism sins be fully, and truly remitted, 
That in Baptism sins be fully and truly forgiven. Cap. 36. Timot. 3.  and put away: and that not through the Faith 
* This talk is needless, and out of season.  only of the giver, or receiver, or of any other, though hereunto it be necessary in th●se, that be come to age of discretion: but through the power, and virtue of the Sacrament, and God's promise. And therefore to whom it is given, of them it is rightly said, that, they be baptized for remission of their sins. The scriptures be plain. first Ezechiel speaking of this Holy Sacrament, saith in the person of God: I wilshed upon you clean water, and ye shall be made clean from all your defilings, and from your Idols will I cleanse you. next S. Paul saith, That God hath saved us by the washing of Regeneration, and of the renewing of the Holy Ghost, whom he hath powered upon us abundantly by jesus Christ our Saviour. That I may add to these manifest Scriptures the Authority of a Learned Father, not whereby to strengthen the truth of them, but to witness our right understanding of them: S. Augustine, Lib. 3. contra duas epist. Pelagian. Cap. 3. shewing the slander of the Pelagians against the Catholics, saith thus in their Person: Again they (that is, after their meaning, the Catholics) avouch, that Baptism maketh not in deed new men again, that is to wit, that it giveth not full remission of sins, etc. Thereto eftsoons answering S. Augustine saith, 
* These words may well pertain to M. Har. himself. For we sai not thus.  Mentiuntur, 
Pelagians belied the Catholics as the Sacramentaries do also now.  iusidiantur, tergiversantur. They lie, they study how to deceive, they seek shifts: we say not this. And after certain sentences returning to Baptism, he concludeth thus: Wherefore Baptism washeth away all sins, utterly all, of deeds, words, thoughts, be they Original, or Actual: be they done ignorantly, or wittingly. But it taketh not away the infirmity, which the regenerate resisteth, etc. Which place doth not only set forth the virtue of Baptism, but also 
Untruth, joined with gross ignorance. M. Har. foully mistaketh S. Augustine's mind.  destroyeth the Doctrine of our New Gospelers, that affirm concupiscence, which remaineth after Baptism, to be verily sin▪ 
* Untruth fond and vain. Read the Answer.  Wherein they err manifestly against the Scripture, and sense of the Fathers.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Il will is ever plenetiful of ili words. M. harding here maketh himself much matter without cause. He teacheth our New clergy, that Baptism is not only a Sign, or a Token of Remission of sins: He telleth us of the Faith of the giver: of the Faith of the Receiver: Of the Power of the Sacrament: Of Concupiscence, that it is no sin. And more, I trow, he would have said, if more had presently come to mind. Verily the poor New clergy speaketh not one word in all this whole place, neither of Sign, nor of Token, nor of the Receiver, nor of the giver, nor of the Power of the Sacrament, nor of Concupiscence, whether it be Sin, or not Sin, nor of any other like thing. Yet in the end he taketh S. Augustine's words, without his meaning, and crieth against us, They lie, they study to deceive, they seek shifts. And why so? Certainly because we say, Baptism is a Sacrament of Remission of Sins: And that the Children of the faithful, for that they be borne in Sin, and pertain to the people of God, ought therefore to be baptized. Other causes then these in any Our Words he can find none.  
True it is, that the Sacrament dependeth not, neither of the Minister, nor of the Receiver, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 5. De Conse. dist. 4. Baptismus talis. johan. 1.  nor of any other. For though they be all the Children of sin, yet is Baptism the Sacrament of Remission of sin. S. Augustine saith, Securum me fecit Magister meus, de quo spiritus eius dicit, Hic est, qui Baptizat: Christ my Master hath assured me, of whom his own Spirit saith, this is he, that Baptizeth.  
Nevertheless concerning the Faith of the Parents, 
Augustin. De Libero Arbitrio Li. 3. Ca 22. Augustin. De Verbis Apostol● Sermo▪ 10.  and others, the Holy Doctors have sometimes written otherwise. S. Augustine saith, Satis piè, recteque creditur, Prodesse paruulo eorum Fidem, à quibus Consecrandus offertur: It is good and Godly to believe, that the Child is helped by the Faith of them, by whom he is offered, or brought unto Baptism. Again he saith, Accommodat illis Mater Ecclesia aliorum pedes, ut veniant: aliorum Cor, ut credant: Our Mother the Church dareth them other men's foot, that they may come▪ and other men's hearts, 
The Faith of the Infants.  that they may believe. The like saieings might be alleged out of justinus Martyr, S. Cyprian, S. Jerome, and others. For thus they writ. How truly, I will not say. But their words be plain. The Prophets Abacuc saith, justus ex Fide sua vivet: The Just man shall live, (not by the Faith of his Parents, but) by his own Faith.  
Of this Faith S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. in Ezechiel. ca 16. De Consecra. Dist. 4. Verus. Actor. 15. 1 petri. 3.  Qui plena Fide non suscipiunt Salutare Baptisma, accipiunt quidem Aquam, sed non accipiunt Spiritum: They that receive not Baptism with perfit Faith, receive the Water: But the Holy Ghost they receive not. S. Augustine saith, Verus Baptismus constat, non tam ablutione Corporis, quàm Fide Cordis: Sicut Apostolica Doctrina tradidit, dicens, Fide mundans Corda eorum: Et alibi, Saluos facit Baptisma, non Carnis depositio sordium, sed conscientiae bonae interrogatio in Deum, per Resurrectionem jesu Christi: True Baptism standeth, not so much in washing of the Body, as in the Faith of the heart: As the Doctrine of the Apostles hath taught us, saying, By Faith purifieinge their hearts. And in an other place, Baptism maketh us safe: not the putting away of the filth of the Flesh, but the examining of a good conscience before God, by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Likewise again he saith, unde ista tanta Virtus Aquae, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. ●0.  ut corpus tangat, & Cor abluat, nisi faciente Verbo? Non quia dicitur, sed quia creditur: Whence is all this so great Virtue, or Power of the Water, that it toucheth the Body, and washeth the Heart, but by the working of the Word? Not for that it is spoken (by the Minister) but for that it is believed (of the faithful).  
Some man will say, Children, or Infants believe nothing, but are utterly void of Faith. S. Augustine answereth, 
Augustin. Epist. 205.  Qui non crediderit, condemnabitur. Sicut eos renasci per Ministerium Baptizantium, ita etiam eos credere per corda, & ora confitentium confitemur: He that believeth not, shallbe damned. We confess, that as they be borne again by the ministery of the Baptizers, so they believe by the hearts, and mouths of the Confessors. 
Augustin. Epist. 23. In eadem Episto.  Again he saith, Habent Fidem, propter Fidei Sacramentum: They have Faith, because they have (Baptism, which is) the Sacrament of Faith. For he saith, Quemadmodum Sacramentum Corporis Christi secundum quendam modum Corpus Christi est, ita Sacramentum Fidei Fides est: As the Sacrament of Christ's Body, (not verily, and in deed, but) after a certain manner of speech is Christ's Body: So Baptism is Faith, because it is the Sacrament of Faith. Therefore Cardinal Caietane is worthily blamed by Catharinus, 
Catharinus contra Caietanum, errore. 87. &, 88  in that he saith, An infant for that he wanteth instruction in Faith, therefore hath not perfit Baptism.  
touching the Virtue, or Power of this Sacrament, if M. harding mean● thereby the outward Element of the Water, he knoweth, or may easily know, It is a common resolution amongst all his own School Doctors, Gratia Dei non est alligata Sacramentis: The Grace of God is not tied to any Sacraments. The meaning thereof is, that God is able to work Salvation, both with them, and without them. 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 80.  S. Augustine saith, as it is before alleged: jam vos mundi estis propter sermonem, quem locutus sum vobis. Quare non ait, Mundi estis propter Baptismum, quo loti estis: Nisi, quia etiam in Aqua Verbum mundat? Detrahe Verbum: & quid est Aqua, 
De Con. dis. 4. Aliud est.  nisi, Aqua? Now are ye clean because of the Word, that I have spoken to you. But why saith he not, Now Ye are clean because of the Baptism, wherewith ye are washed: saving y●, because in the Water it is the Word, that maketh clean▪ Take away the Word, and what is the Water, more than Water? Therefore he saith, 
Augusti epist. 23.  Aqua exhibet forinsecùs Sacramentum Gratiae: The Water geveeth us outwardly the Sacrament of Grace.  
notwithstanding we must consider, that the Learned, Fathers in their treaties of the Sacraments, sommetime use the outward Sign in steed of the thing itself, that is signified: sommetime they use the thing Signified, in steed of the Sign. As for example, 
The Power of Baptism.  sometimes they name Christ's Blood in steed of the Water: Sommetime they name the Water in steed of Christ's Blood. This Figure is called Metonymia, that is to say, an exchange of names: and is much used amongst the Learned, specially speaking of the Sacraments.  
S. Augustine using the Water in place of the Blood of Christ, that is Signified by the Water, saith thus: 
August. Epist. 23.  Soluit vinculum culpae: reconciliat bonum naturae: regenerate hominem in uno Christo: It breaketh the band of Sin: It reconcileth the goodness of Nature: It doth renew a man in One Christ.  
Notwithstanding, in deed, and in precise manner of speech. Salvation must be sought in Christ alone, and not in any outward Signs. Christ is that Lamb of God, 
johan. 1. 1. johan. 1. Cyprian. De Baptismo Christi.  that taketh away the Sins of the World: The Blood of Christ maketh us clean from all our Sins. S. Cyprian saith, Remi●io peccatorum, ●iue per Baptismum, sive per alia Sacramenta donetur, Propriè Spiritus Sancti est: & ipsi soli huius efficientiae Privilegium mane●. Verborum solennitas, & Sacri invocatio Nominis, & Signa Apostolicis Institutionibus attribura, Visibile celebrant Sacramentum. Rem verò ipsam Spiritius Sanctus format, & efficit: The Remission of Sin, whether it be geeven by Baptism, or by any other Sacrament, is in deed of the Holy Ghost: and to the same Holy Ghost only the Privilege of this work doth appertain. The solemnity of the Words, and the invocation of God's Holy Name, and the outward Signs appointed to the ministery of the Priests, by the Institution of the Apostles, wooorke the Visible outward Sacrament: But touching the substance thereof (which is the Remission of Sins) it is the Holy Ghost, that worketh it. Likewise saith S. Jerome, 
Hieronym. in Esa●am, Cap. 4.  Homo Aquam tantùm tribuit: Deus autem dat Spiritum Sanctum, quo sordes abluuntur: The Minister, being a man, giveth only the Water: but God giveth the Holy Ghost, whereby the Sins be washed away. And again, 
Hierony. ad Galat. Cap. 3.  Si quis Corporeum, &, quod oculis Carnis aspicitur. Aquae tantùm accipit lavacrum, non est indutus Dominum jesum Christum: If any man have received only the Bodily wasshinge of Water, that is outwardly seen with the eye, he hath not put on our Lord Jesus Christ.  
Concerning Concupiscence, remaining in the faithful after Baptism, whether it be Sin, or no Sin, there was no great cause, why M. harding should in this place move question: saving that, as he hath hitherto denied, that Falshedde is Falshedde, so he would now deny, that Sin is sin. Undoubtedly S. Paul feeling the same Concupiscence in himself, is forced to mourn, 
Roman. 7.  and to cry out, I see an other Law in my members, fighting against the Law of my mind, and leading me Prisoner to the Law of sin. And again, O Wretched man, that I am: who shall deliver me from this Body of Death? Therefore S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. Lib. 10. Epist. 84.  Non iwenitur in vllo hominum tanta concordia, ut Legi Mentis Lex, quae Membris est insita, non repugnet. Propter quod ex omnium Sanctorum Persona accipitur, quod johannes Apostolus ait, Si dixerimus, quòd pecca●um non habemus, nos ipsos seducimus, & Veritas in nobis non est: There is not found in any man such concord (between the Flesh, and the Spirit) but that the Law (of Concupiscence) which is planted in the Members. fighteth against the Law of the Mind. And for that cause the words of S. John the Apostle are taken, as spoken in the Person of all Saints, 
1. johan. 1.  If we say, we have no Sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no Truth in us. And to leave all others, S. Augustine saith in most plain wise, Concupiscentia Carnis, 
August. contra julian. li. 5. ca 3.  adversus quam bonus Concupiscit Spiritus, & Peccatum est, & Poena Peccati, & Causa Peccati: The Concupiscence of the Flesh, against which the good Spirit lusteth, is both Sin, and the Pain of sin, and the Cause of sin. 
Augu in johan. Tracta. 41.  And again he saith, Quàmdiu vivis, necesse est Peccatum esse in membris ruis: 
Concupiscence is sin.  As long, as thou livest, there must needs be Sin in thy members.  
If M. harding say, we wrest, and rack S. Augustine, and take his words otherwise, than he meant, Albertus Pighius his own Principal Doctor will control him. 
Albertus' Pighiin controver de Peccato Originis.  Thus he writeth: Augustinus tradit, hanc ipsam Concupiscentiam Corpori nostro inspersam, atque innatam in nondum renatis verè, & propriè Peccatum esse: quae ignoscatur quidem, sed non tollatur in Baptismo: S. Augustine teacheth us, that this same Concupiscence planted in our Body, in them, that be not regenerate by Baptism, Verily, and in plain manner of speech is Sin: and that the same Concupiscence is forgiven in Baptism, but is not utterly taken away.  
Yet the late blessed Chapter of trident, in spite of S. Augustine, hath published the Contrary: 
Concil. Trident. Session. 5.  Hanc Concupiscentiam, quam Apostolus aliquando appellat Peccatum, Sancta Synodus declarat, Ecclesiam Catholicam nunquam intellexisse, quòd verè, & propriè in renatis Peccatum sit: sed quia ex Peccato est, & ad Peccatum inclinat. Si quis autem contrarium senserit, Anathema sit: The Concupiscence, which the Apostle S. Paul sommetime calleth Sin, this Holy Council declareth, that the Cathosique Church never understood it to be called sin, for that it is so in deed, and in Proper manner of Speech, in them that be baptized: but because it is of Sin, and inclineth us unto sin. And if any man think the Contrary, accused be he. Thus we see, that by the Decree of this worthy covent, S. Ambrose, and S. Augustine, & other Holy Fathers, that have written the same, are all accursed.  
As for that M. harding here toucheth, as an error defended by certain, I know not, by whom, that Baptism giveth not full Remission of Sin, he mai● command it home again to L●uaine amongst his fellows, and ieine it with other of his, and their● Vanities. For it is no part, nor portion of our Doctrine. We Confess, and have evermore taught, that in the Sacrament of Baptism by the Death, and Blood of Christ, is given Remission of all manner Sins: and that not in half, or in part, or by way of Imagination, or by fancy: but full, whole, and perfit, of all together: so that now, as S. Paul saith, 
Roman. 8.  There is no damnation unto them, that be in Christ Jesus.  
Now judge thou indifferently, gentle Reader, what Spirit forced M. harding thus terribly to cry out, They Lie: they study to deceive: they seek shifts, etc.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 1.  
We say, that Eucharistia, that is to say, the Supper of the Lord, is a Sacrament, that is, an evident Representation of the Body, and Blood of Christ: wherein is set, as it were, before our eyes, the Death of Christ, and his Resurrection, and what so ever he did, whilst he was in his Mortal Body: to th'end we may geene him thanks for his Death, and for our deliverance. And that by the often receiving of this Sacrament, we may daily renew the remembrance thereof, to th'intent we being fed with the Body, and Blood of Christ, may be brought into the hope of the Resurrection, and of everlasting Life: and may most assuredly believe, that, as our bodies be fed with Bread, and Wine, so our Souls be fed with the Body, and Blood of Christ.  

M. harding.  
Among all these gay words 
* We utter as many Syllables of Real Presence, as Christ ever uttered.  we hear not so much as one Syllable uttered, whereby we may understand, that ye believe, the Very Body of Christ to be in deed Present in the blessed Sacrament of the Altar. Ye confess the Eucharistia, which commonly ye call, the Supper of the Lord, to be a Sacrament, 
The lords supper with the Defenders is an evident token of the Body and Blood of Christ.  and all that to be none other than an evident token of the Body and Blood of Christ. As for that ye add to make the matter seem somewhat, of the Death of Christ, and his Resurrection, and his acts done in flesh: What reason or scripture have ye, that a piece of Bread and a Cup of Wine (for 
* Untruth, joined with slander, and malice.  in your belief more make ye not of this Sacrament) can set them as it were before our eyes? Doth not rather a fair Painted table set forth the acts of our Saviour before our eyes more lively and more expressly? And be we not moved therewith to give God thanks for his great benefits, as well as if we have Bread and Wine on a table? But I pray you, sithence all is 
* Untruth, slanderous, as the Former.  but Bread and Wine after your teaching, how shall we by eating and drinking thereof be fed with the Body and Blood of Christ? Again can we by 
Even as well, as by the Water in Baptism.  Bread and Wine be brought into hope of the Resurrection, and Ever lasting life, as ye say? And how shall we by eating of Bread and Drinking of Wine be assured, that Christ's Body and Blood doth in like manner feed our souls, as Bread and Wine feedeth our bodies? Though your imagination be never so strong, yet by eating of that, which is Bread only, and Drinking of that, which is Wine only, we see not how your souls can be fed with the True Body and Blood of Christ, no more than ye be at your common meals.  
Verily, when all your tale is told, ye seem to say nothing else touching the eating of our lords Body, but that the Body of Christ remaineth in Heaven, and that we must send up our souls thither, to eat it there by a certain Imagination, which ye call faith. For this is your Master calvin's Doctrine. 
Faith doth al.  By this Doctrine all standeth upon your faith: your faith doth all alone. And he that believeth in Christ, so as ye teach, eateth his Body, and Drinketh his Blood. For by your Gospel, to eat the Body, is nothing else, but to believe in Christ. If this be true, then is your Supper superfluous.  
For declaration of the Truth herein, 
The Catholic Doctrine touching the Sacrament of th'altar.  it is to be considered that, when we speak of this blessed Sacrament, we mean specially, the thing received to be the very Real Body of Christ, not only a Sign or Token of his Body. Yet we think it necessary. 
* Untruth, contrary to the Ancient Fathers: Read the Answer.  the Doctrine of the Fathers be clearly taught: which is, that here is a Sacrament, and the thing of the Sacrament. The 
Untruth, without sense or savour. No Catholic Father ever taught this peevish Doctrine.  Form of Bread and Wine, which is seen, is the Sacrament, that is to say, a Sign of the Holy thing. For a Sacrament besides the outward shape, which it representeth to the senses, causeth an other thing to come into knowledge. The thing of this Sacrament is of two sorts, the one 
* Untruth, and one of M Harmystical dreams.  in though same contained and signified, the other signified, but not contained. The first is the Body of Christ borne of the Virgin Mary, and his Blood shed for our Redemption: the second is the Unity of the Church in these that be predestinate, 
A threefold distinction to be considered in the Doctrine of this Sacrament.  called, justified, and glorified. Which Church is Christ's Body mystical. So that here are three distinct things understanded. The one is a Sacrament only: the other a Sacrament and the thing: the third the thing, and not a Sacrament. The first is the visible shape or Form of Bread and Wine: the second is the proper and very Flesh and Blood of Christ: the third, his Mystical Body.  
And as there be two things of this Sacrament, so be there also two means or ways of eating. The one Sacramental, after which both good and 
Untruth horrible, and Heathenish.  evil eat the true Body of Christ: they to salvation, these to damnation. The other spiritual, after which the good only do eat. These Defenders, as all other the Sacrament aries, 
Indistinct speaking of distinct things.  speaking of these distinct things indistinctly, cause confusion, and deceive the unlearned readers. In such a sense and meaning the place commonly alleged out of S. Augustine, as also many other the like, may well be understanded, without prejudice of the Truth of Christ's Body in the Sacrament: Vt quid paras dentem & Venttem? Crede, & manducasti. To what purpose makest thou ready teeth and belly? Believe, and thou hast eaten. Now these Defenders harping●●●n●ly upon this one string of spiritual eating, and shunning the Faith of the Catholic Church touching the true presence of the Body, and Violently wresting the Holy Scripture, and Ancient Fathers to a contrary sense, 
Faith Eateth.  admitting Figures for Truth, tropes for the letter, shadows for things: play us many a false lesson, 
All this is only M. hardings discante. We admit Figures for Figures, and Truth for Truth.  and teach horrible lies, to the utter subversion of those, that be lead by them.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here is no mention, saith M. harding, of Real Presence: and thereupon he playeth us many a proper Lesson. notwithstanding here is as much mention made of Real Presence, as either Christ, or his Apostles ever made: or in the Primutive Catholic Church of God was ever believed.  
Farther he saith, What reason, or Scripture have ye, that a Piece of Bread, and a Cup of Wine can set the Death, and Resurrection of Christ, as it were, before your eyes? Verily, when all your tale is told, ye seem to say nothing else, but that the Body of Christ remaineth in Heaven, and that we must send up our souls thither, to eat it there by a certain imagination, which ye call Faith.  
Here ye do great wrong, M. harding, to call the Faith of Christ, an Imagination, or, as I trow: ye mean, a fancy. S. Paul saith, Fides est Substantia rerum sperandarum: Faith is (not an Imagination, but) the Substance and ground of the things, that we hope for. If ye travail once again to Rome, being thus far instructed already, ye will easily learn the Lesson, that one of your late Popes there, as it is reported, taught his Cardinals: O, quantum nobis profuit illa Fabula de Christo?  
That we ought to send up our Faith into Heaven, and there to embrace the Body of Christ, it is S. Augustine's Doctrine, it is not ours. These be his words: Dices, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 52  Quomodò tenebo Christum Absentem? Quomodò in Coelum manum mittam, ut ibi sedentem teneam? Fidem mitte: & tenuisti. Parents tui tenuerunt Carne: tu tene cord: Thou wilt say, how shall I hold Christ being absent? How we shall I reach my hand into Heaven, that I may hold him sitting there? Send up thy Faith: and thou holdest him. Thy Fathers (the jews) held him in the flesh: Hold him thou in thy heart.  
But for as much as H. hardinge thought it sufficient, so pleasantly to pass over this matter with his Imaginations, and fancies, I think it therefore so much the more needful, to show the judgement of the Ancient Learned Fathers in that behalf.  
First therefore S Augustine saith, 
Augu. De Trinitate, Li. 13. Ca 1.  Rerum Absentium Praesens est Fides: & rerum, quae foris sunt, intus est Fides: & rerum, quae non videntur, videtur Fides: Of things that be absent, Faith is Present: of things, that be without, Faith is within: and of things that be not seen, 
Augustin in. Psalm. 75.  Faith is seen. Again be saith, Cùm non obliviscimur munus salvatoris, nun nobis quotidiè Christus immolatur? Ex ipsis reliquijs cogitationis nostrae, id est, ex ipsa memoria Christus quotidiè nobis sic immolatur, quasi quotidiè nos innovet: When we foregeate not the gift of our saviour, is not Christ offered unto us every day? Of the very remanentes of our thoughts, that is to say, of our very memory, Christ is so daily offered unto us, as though he renewed us every day.  
And, 
Hieronym. De 7. Ordinib. Eccle. De gradu 7.  the more lively to express this matter, S. Jerome saith, Tibi Conuivium Christus est: Cogitatio Christus est: Gaudium Christus est: Desiderium Christus est: Lectio Christus est: quies Christus est: Christ is thy banquet: Christ is thy thought: Christ is thy joy: Christ is thy desire: Christ is thy reading: Christ is thy reate. Likewise S. Ambrose, 
Ambros. De Virginib. Lib. 2.  In animis vestris quotidiè pro Redemptione Corporis Christus offertur: In your minds Christ is daily offered for the Redemption of the Body.  
And to pass over others, 
Faith Eateth.  for that it pleaseth M. harding, to make himself such mirth with Imaginations, Euthymius a Greek Author writing purposely of this matter, saith thus, 
Euthymi. in johan. Cap 9  Non oportet simpliciter ea intueri, sed aliud quiddam imaginari, & interioribus oculis ea perspicere, tanovam Mysteria: We may not sook barely upon these things, (that is, upon the Bread and Wine) but must thereof imagine some other matter, and behold the same with our in ward Spiritual eyes, as it is meet to behold Mysteries.  
And least M. harding should say, This Imagination is vain, and fantastical, as is the greatest part of his Religion, 
Augu. Epist. 117.  S. Augustine saith, Magis sunt illa, quae intelligimus, quàm ista, quae cernimus: The things, that we understand, (or imagine by Faith) are more certain, than the things, that we see with our eyes.  
Neither may you think, M. harding, that these things being granted, the Ministration of the Holy Supper would be superfluous. For these two Kinds of eating must evermore necessarily be joined together. And who so ever cometh to the Holy Table, & advanceth not his Mind unto Heaven, there to feed upon Christ's Body at the Right hand of God, he knoweth not the meaning of these Mysteries, but is void of understanding, as the Horse, or the Mule, and receiveth only the bare Sacraments to his Condemnation. Therefore the Mystical Supper of Christ, notwithstanding this Doctrine, is not superfluous: But your Transubstantiation, your Real Presence, and a great part of this your idle talk is most vain, and most superfluous.  
But ye say, How can Bread, and Wine bring us to the hope of Resurrection, or of Everlasting Life? and why may not a man in like manner demand of you, Haw can a few Drops of cold Water bring us to the hope of Resurrection? If Water may do it, why may not Bread, and Wine likewise do it?  
touching the Water, 
Basilius, De Sancto Baptismo.  S. Basile saith, Baptismus est Potentia Dei ad Resurrectionem: Baptism is the Power of God to Resurrection. Again he saith, Resurrectionis Gratiam in Die Resurrectionis recipiamus: Upon the Day of Resurrection let us receive (Baptism, 
Hieronym. in 1. Cor. 15.  which is) the Grace of Resurrection. S. Jerome saith, Non solùm propter Remissionem Peccatorum Baptizamur, sed etiam propter Resurrectionem Carnis nostrae: We are baptized, not only for Remission of Sins, but also for the Resurrection of our Flesh. And therefore the Greeks call Baptism 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Dionysius. Ca 2.  That is, the Weed of immortality.  
Here, M. harding, it were some point of skill to show us, how so great Power may be in so little Water. How be it, it is not the Water in deed, that worketh the force of Resurrection, but the Blood of Christ, that is Signified by the Water. 
Ambro. in Epist. ad Rom. Cap. 6. Ignatius ad Trallianos.  And therefore S. Ambrose saith, Baptismus Resurrectionis Pignus, & Imago est: Baptism is the Pledge, and Image of Resurrection. Likewise Ignarius, Credentes in Mortem eius, per Baptisma Participes Resurrectionis eius efficimur: believing in the Death of Christ, by Baptism we are made Partakers of his Resurrection. The like we say of the Holy Supper. Neither is M. harding able to show us any sufficient cause to the contrary, but Wine or Bread may have this Power, as well as Water. Of this whole matter we shall speak hereafter more at large.  
But if Bread, and Wine, as M. harding saith, have no Power to work Resurrection, what Power then can his Accidents, and empty forms have to work the same? For, touching the Body of Christ itself, his own Doctors could have told him, that it enteth not into our Bodies. For thus it is noted, & published for sound, and certain Doctrine, upon the Decrees: 
De Conse. Dist. ●. Tribus gradib. in Glossa.  Certum est, quòd quàm citò Species teruntur dentibus, tam citò in Coelum rapitur Corpus Christi: It is certain, 
Difference between, etc.  and out of doubt, that as soon as the Accidents, or forms are touched with the teeth, strait way the Body of Christ is taken up into Heaven.  
Hereof we may reason thus: Christ's Body is suddenly taken up into Heaven, and is not received into our Bodies: and that, as it is noted here, is true, and certain: The Bread, and Wine, by M. hardings Doctrine, are utterly consumed, no part of the Substance thereof remaining: There is nothing left there, but forms, and Accidents. Hereof it must needs follow, by this Doctrine, that the same bare forms, & Accidents have Power to work our Resurrection. But it is well known, and confessed in all Schools, that the Substance is better, and worthier, than is the Accident. Therefore we may conclude, The Accident may do it: Ergo. the Substance may much more do it.  
For the rest, M. harding saith, The Substance of the Bread is quite removed: The roundness, and whiteness are the Sacrament: The thing thereof is of two sorts: The one contained, and signified: the other signified, and not contained. These Mystical fancies may lie still, until M. harding by some Authoriritie, other than his own, have proved them better. True it is, that M. harding saith, between the Sacrament, and the thing itself, that is to say, between the Sacrament, and the Body of Christ represented by the Sacrament, there is great difference. For in deed, and verily, and in precise manner of speech, neither is Christ's Body the Sacrament: nor is the Sacrament Christ's Body.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. Epist 23. ad Bonifacium.  as it is alleged before, Nisi Sacramenta similitudinem quandam earum rerum, quatum Sacramenta sunt, haberent, omninò Sacramenta non essent. Ex hac autem similitudine plaerunque rerum ipsarum nomina accipiunt. Itéque secundum quendam modum Sacramentum Corporis Christi, Corpus Christi est: unless Sacraments had a certain likeness of the things, whereof they be sacraments, without question they were no Sacraments. And in consideration of this likeness, oftentimes they bear the names of the things themselves. Therefore after a certain manner of speech (and not otherwise) the Sacrament of the Body of Christ, is Christ's Body.  
Hereof I have written more at large, 
Articulo 21.  as occasion was offered, in my Former Reply to M. Harding. S. Ambrose noting this difference, saith thus, Non iste Panis, qui vadit in ventrem: 
De Conse. dist. 2. Non iste.  Sed Panis Vitae Aeternae, qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulci●: Not this Bread (of the Sacrament) that passeth into the belly: but (the Body of Christ itself, which is) the Bread of everlasting Life: which relieveth the Substance of our Soul, 
Rabanus, Lib. 1. Cap. 31.  and is signified by the Sacrament. Rabanus Maurus saith, Aliud est Sacramentum, aliud vis Sacramenti. Sacramentum in Corporis alimentum redigitur: Virtute Sacramenti aeternae Vitae dignitas adipiscitur: The Sacrament is one thing: The Power of the Sacrament is an other thing. The Sacrament is changed into the food, or norishement of the Body: by the virtue of the Sacrament is gotten the dignity of everlasting Life. 
Chryso. in Matthae. Homil. 11.  Likewise S. Chrysostom, In Sacris Vasis, non ipsum Corpus Christi, sed Mysterium Corporis eius continetur: In the Holy Vessels is contained, not the Very Body of Christ itself, but a Mystery, or Sacrament of his Body.  
So great difference there is between the Sacrament & the Body of Christ. The Sacrament passeth into the Belly: Christ's Body passeth into the Soul. The Sacrament is upon Earth: Christ's Body is in Heaven. The Sacrament is corruptible: Christ's Body is glorious. The Sacrament is the Sign: Christ's Body is the thing Signified. For want of this distinction M. harding wandereth blindly in the dark, he knoweth not whither. Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Doctrina Christiana, Lib. 3. Cap. 5.  speaking purposely hereof, Ea demum est miserabilis animae servitus, Signa pro rebus accipere: This is a miserable bondage of the s●ule, to take the Signs in steed of the things, that he signified.  
Whether, and in what sense the wicked may be said to eat the Body of Christ, it shallbe discussed hereafter more at large.  
As for M. hardings ordinary Conclusion of wresting the Scriptures, and Holy Fathers: Of plaieinge false Lessons: of teaching, as be saith, horrible lies: and of subverting the people, with all other the like furniture, we will leave it freely, and wholly unto the Author.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 2.  
To this Banquet we think the People of God ought to be earnestly bidden, that they may all Communicate among themselves, and openly declare, and testify both the godly Society, which is among them, and also the hope, which they have in Christ jesus. For this cause, if there had been any, which would be but a looker on, and abstain from the holy Communion, him did the Old Fathers, and Bishops of Rome in the Primitive Church, before Private Masie came up, excommunicate, as a wicked person, & as a Pagans. Neither was there any Christian at that time, which did Communicate alone, whiles other looked on. For so did Calixtus in times passed decree, that after the Consecration was finished, all should Communicate, except they had rather stand without the Church doors. For thus (saith he) did the Apostles appoint, and the same the Holy Church of Rome keepeth still.  

M. harding.  
Let this Banquet be dight as it ought to be: let the best dish be made ready in due sort, which is the very Body of our Saviour Christ: let the guests be told what is set before them at that Holy Table: let them be taught to believe rightly, to prove, and prepare themselves, as behoveth: then we think it most convenient the people of God be bidden thereto, not thereby to Communicate among themselves only, but also, and rather to Communicate with God, to be incorporate in Christ, and to be made Partakers of all the benefits of God procured to man by the Death of his Son suffered in that Body, which at this high Feast they Eat. This Banquet being thus set forth, if some devout persons think themselves for good causes unworthy to assay thereof, 
devout lookers on, do Spiritually Communicate.  and to receive that heavenly food Sacramentally, finding themselves not so well prepared, as S. Paul requireth in that behalf, yet for love of it desire to be present, and behold that Table, and spiritually to taste of that healthful Dish by Faith, Charitte, Prayer, and fervent Devotion, wherein they do not wholly abstain from the Holy Communion: such 
* Untruth. For the Catholic Fathers Condemned them.  are not to be condemned as idle lookers on for so ye make them, nor to be driven out of the Church. Neither did ever the Old Fathers, and Bishops of Rome in the Primitive Church (say what ye will Defenders) excommunicate them: much less did they repute them for 
Untruth. For S. Chrysostom calleth them impudentes, & improbos: Ad [●phes. Homil 3.  wicked Persons and Pagans. And 
A Untruth, coldly avouched. Read the Answer.  not seldom the Priesteat the Mass (which for this respect with unreasonable novelty ye term Private) when none other were disposed to receive with him Sacramentally, 
Calixtus alleged for Anacletus. The Defenders require more of the Catholics than they perform themselves. The place of Anaclet● discussed.  but Spiritually only, hath received alone the Holy things, which he hath offered.  
Neither the Decree of Anacletus, which ye being deceived by Gratian 
B Untruths three together: As shall appear.  untruly father upon Calixtus, requireth that all the people present should Communicate with the Priest at the Mass. Which thing ye should not have objected to the Church, seeing that it is not observed by your own New order in your Congregations. Read the Epistle of Anacletus, from whence this Decree is taken, and yourselves will confess the same. That Holy Father and Martyr prescribeth the Order which he would to be kept, when Bishops, or Priests say Mass: Which was, that it be done in places consecrated to God, that a Bishop at his Mass have witnesses with him more than an other Priest. In the 
B Untruth three together: As shall appear.  solemn Feasts he requireth Seven, Five, or three Deacons, likewise Subdeacons, and other Ministers, all clothed in hallowed Vestiments to attend upon him, to stand of every side of him with a contrite heart, 
The best dish.  and humble Spirit looking downward, keeping him from malicious men, 
This Commaundemen of receiving the Communion given by Anacket● pertaineth only to the Ministers of the Church in solemn Feasts.  giving consent to his Sacrifice. Thus much being declared in that Epistle, it followeth immediately, Peracta autem Consecratione, etc. And when the Consecration is ended, let them all Communicate, that will not be kept without the Church doors. For so the Apostles have ordained, and the Holy Church of Rome observeth. Who seeth not this request of receiving the Communion to be referred 
* Untruth. plain and manifest. Read the Answer.  to the Priests, Deacons, Subdeacons, and other Ministers in solemn feasts, serving the Bishop at Mass? For in that place Anacletus speaketh never a word expressly of the Lay people. Therefore ye deceive the unlearned reader with a lie.  
For the better understanding of this Decree, specially whereas Anacletus allegeth the Apostles ordinance for the same, ninth Canon of the Apostles is to be considered: In which they require 
* Untruth, For in the Apostles Canons it is written thus, Quicunque Fideles ingrediuntur in Ecclesiam, etc. Canone. 10.  every Ecclesiastical person to be partaker of the Sacrifice, that is offered, or to be excluded from the Communion: 
See the 9 Canon of the Apostles  onelsse he show just cause for the contrary. The reason whereof in that Canon expressed is this: least clerk absteininge from the Communion should be occasion of offence to the people, and thereby raise an evil suspicion against him. that sacrificed, as though he had not made the Oblation as it ought to be.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Let this Banquet be deight, saith M. harding, as it ought to be: Let the best dish be made ready. Good Christian Reader, the best, the wholesomest, the most pleasant, and most Comfortable disshe at this Table, is the Death of Christ, that Lamb of God, that hath taken away the Sins of the world. Thus Christ himself, the Master of this Feast, hath willed us to dress this Dinner: Do this, saith he, in Remembrance of me. Likewise S. Paul, As often as ye shall eat of this Bread, and Drink of this Cup, 
1. Corinth. 11.  ye shall show forth, and publish the lords Death, until be come.  
This Banquet therefore is not the outward, or bare Sacrament, but Christ's very Body, and Blood, which are represented unto us by the Sacrament: And, as it is before alleged out of S. Ambrose, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Non iste. Hieronym. ad Hedibiam.  It is not the Bread (of the Sacrament) that passeth into the belly, but the Bread of everlasting Life, which relieveth the Substance of the Soul. Therefore S. Jerome saith, judaicas fabulas repellamus, & Ascendamus cum Domino in Coenaculum magnum stratum, atque mundatum, & accipiamus ab eo sursum Calicem Novi Testamenti: Let us abandonne from us jewish Fables, and set us Ascend up with our Lord into Heaven, into that great parlar dressed, and made clean: and there above let us receive of him the Cup of the New Testament. 
Cyprian. De Coena Domini.  In this sense S. Cyprian saith, Vident haec Sacramenta Pauperes Spiritu, & hoc uno contenti Ferculo, omnes huius mundi delicias aspernantur: & possidentes Christum, aliquam huius mundi possidere supellectilem dedignantur: The poor in Spirit see these Sacraments, and being contented with this Only dish, they despise all other the dainty fares of the world: and having possession of Christ, they disdain to possess any worldly Substance. In like sort speaking of the Birth of Christ, he saith thus: 
Cyprian De Nativitate Christi.  Ea quae licita sunt, & concessa, tangamus: & circa incunabula salvatoris Prima Infantiae eius Fercula degustemus: Let us touch those things, that be lawful for us to touch: and standing about the Cradle of our saviour, set us taste of the first Disshe of his Childhood. 
August. in Psalmum. 57  Likewise saith S. Augustine, Coecus interiùs Panem Christum non videt. Et beatus est? Hoc non dicit, nisi Pariter Coecus: He that is blind in his heart within, seeth not Christ, that is our Bread. And is he blessed? Noman will so say, unless it be one as blind, as he.  
But what manner of Feast is it, that M. harding prepareth for the people? How is it seasoned? how is it dressed? first, by very uncourteous, and uncivil dealing, he withdraweth the one half, that is, the Cup of the New Testament, and reserveth it severally to himself: & yet would make the people believe, they have the whole. 
Private Mass.  And thus doth he, when he hath greatest company to Sup with him, and when his feast is best furnished. Otherwise he suffereth his gheastes to stand aluffe, and he consumeth all his provision himself alone. Neither in deed hath he any thing to set before them, saving only a cold surcharge of dead Shows, and doumbe Ceremonies. The poor people heareth nothing, Understandeth nothing, Eateth nothing, Drinketh nothing, Tasteth nothing: They publish not the lords Death: They know not the lords Supper.  
To such a Banquet Pasetes the juggler used sometimes to call his friends. 
Suidas.  There was a great show of variety, and plenetie of all manner of Meats, and Drinks, the table full. But when any of the gheastes would have touched any thing, it vanished suddenly away, and was turned to nothing. And so, when their eyes were full, they put up their knives, and rose ahungred. Even thus M. harding feedeth, and feasteth the people of God, with Shows and Ceremonies, and suffereth them in the mean while to starve for hunger. Even as the Prophet saith, It shallbe like the dream of a hungry man. Behold he eateth, and maketh merry: But when he is awaked, 
isaiah. 29.  his soul is empty.  
Good men, saith M. harding, withdraw themselves, and are contented to be present only, & to stand by: but receive not the Sacrament. But Chrysostom saith to such a good devout man. 
Chrysost. ad Ephes. Homil. 3.  If thou stand by, and do not Communicate, thou art wicked, thou art shameless, thou art impudent. Thou wilt say, I am unworthy to be partaker of the Holy Mysteries. 
Impudens. Improbus.  Then art thou unvoorthy to be partaker of the Prayers. Thou mayst no more stand here, than an Heathen, that never was Christened.  
Here, gentle Reader, mayst thou see, a marvelous change in the Church of God. The thing, that in old times was counted Heathenish, Impudency, and Wickedness, is now by M. hardings New Divinity become Godliness, and great Devotion.  
But, 
Not Seldom.  God wot, here followeth a very cold Asseveration. Not Seldom, ye say, the Priest at the Mass, when none other were disposed, received alone. O M. harding, the world well seeth, your word is no Gospel. It appeareth by your so many Untruths, ye care not greatly, what you say. Thus ye tell us, Not Seldom the Priest received alone. Not Seldom? what is that? why speak you so nicely? what meaneth this cold, and doubtful eloquence, specially in him, that otherwise hath acquainted his voice to speak so big? why say you not, The Priest used daily, and commonly so to do? Or if ye could not avouch so great Untruth for very shame, why said you not, The Priest oftentimes, or at some certain times received alone: at the least at four, or three, or two sundry times, within the space of six hundred years? At the worst, if ye had said, but Once, it had been somewhat. As for, Not seldomme, it is too base: it is too simple: it disgraceth the whole course of your pleading, and in plain speech soundeth, as much, as Never. It had rather been your part, taking upon you this countenance of credit, and gravity, to have told us Substantially, and plainly, what manner of man this Priest was: where he dwelt: what was his name: when, and where, and in what Company he said this Mass: who saw it: who heard it: who bare witness to it: by what Record, or Authority it may be proved. The matter being so great, and of such Antiquity, is there noman left behind, to witness the same, but M. harding? In your Former Answer ye bring us in Boys, Girls, Sick folk, Lay people, and Women: and upon such grounds ye stick not to found your Private Mass. And doubtless these examples might have seemed to stand you in some pretty steed, if in those days Boys, 
Anacletus Calixtus.  and Women had been Priests. For Priest, or Bishop, that ever received the Sacrament alone, in the Church, before the people, ye are not yet able to show us one. As for your Leontius, and Amphilochius, & S. Basiles Mass at Midnight, and other like follies, and fables, it seemeth by the silence, ye use in your late Rejoinder, ye are contented wisely, and quietly to give them over.  
Ye say, we are deceived by Gratian, and have placed Calixtus in steed of Anacletus. Here first of all, ye confess, that Gratian your great Rabbin, the Father, and Fountain of your Decrees might be deceived. And verily such plainness in dealing, if ye would vouchsafe to use it oftener, were worthy of some commendation. For in deed your Gratian, as he was a man of great reading, and small judgement, so he allegeth oftentimes, he knoweth not what: Jerome for Origen: Cyprian for Augustine: Beda for Ambrose: Iwencus for Vincentius: Greeke for Latin: New for Old. As for this authority, wherein you say, 
De Con. Dist. 1. Episcopus. De Con. Dist. 2. Peracta.  we are deceived, he allegeth it in two sundry places: first under the name of Anacletus: next under the name of Calixtus: meaning, I trow, if there were error in the one, at least to redress it by the other. Therefore, M. harding, if ye had looked better upon your Book, what so ever opinion ye have of your Gratian, ye should have found, that we were nothing deceived. Haw be it, your Gratian, in steed of one error, hath made two. For in deed, as it is true, that these words were never written by Calixtus: so of the other side it is likewise true, they were never written by Anacletus: but were manifestly forged, and falsified by others, that followed afterward: 
Artic. 4. Divi. 3.  as in my Former Reply I have declared more at large.  
But it is a world to see, what wiles, & shifts these men can find, to bear out error. first, ye say, these words were spoken of the Priests, Deacons, & Subdeacons, serving the Priest at Mass upon Solemn Feasts. Pardonne me, M. harding, to say the Truth. For verily, notwithstanding this solemn tale, it seemeth, ye know not, what ye say. For it may please you to remember, that your Anacletus, whose forged Authority ye have alleged, was Bishop in Rome in the time of S. Peter, shortly upon the Death of Christ, when the Church was everywhere under persecution, & full of Blood. Now, I pray you, who ever told you, either of any office, that your Subdeacons had in the Holy ministery, or of any great high Holy Days, of Duplex, or magis Duplex, or principal Solemn Feasts in the Church of God in all that time? May we think, that the Blessed Virgins, and the Apostles days were kept High and Holy, while the same Blessed Virgin, and Apostles were yet alive? Though ye had none other regard, either to God, or to yourself, yet shame should force you, to foresee more advisedly, what ye say.  
But your greatest folly appeareth in the shifting, & glostnge of these words. For you say, this Calixtus, or Anacletus speaketh only of the Priests, the Deacons, and the Subdeacons: and never a word expressly of the Lay people: and therefore ye say, w●e deceive the unlearned Reader with a lie. touching your uncourteous speech, I weigh it none otherwise, but as it is. The Truth willbe able evermore to bear itself. But that these words of Anacletus, or Calixtus, touch not the Lay people, but only the Priests, and the Ministers, the very Gloser himself was never, either so unskilful, or so impudent, so to say. For, whereas the words be these, Let them all Communicate, unless they willbe removed out of the Church, he setteth there to this Exposition, Hoc antiquum est: Nam hoc hodiè relictum videtur arbitrio cuiuslibet: 
De Con. Dist. 2. Peracta. In Glossa.  This was the old manner: For now adays it is free for every man to do therein, what he will.  
The like Decree is found under the name of the Apostles Canons: Quicunque fideles ingrediuntur in Ecclesiam, 
Anacletus Calixtus.  & Scripturas audiunt, non autem persuerant in Oratione, 
Canon. Apostol. Canon. 10.  nec Sanctam Communionem percipiunt, velut qui ordinis perturbationem commovent, ab Ecclesiae Communione arceri convenit: As many (not only of the Priests, and Ministers, but) of the faithful, as come into the Church, and hear the Scriptures, but continue not out the Prayers, nor receive the Holy Communion, let them be put from the Communion of the Church, as men that work the breach of Order. Likewise it is noted in the Margin upon the same Canons, 
Canon. Apost. Can. 9 In Margin.  Omnes olim, qui intererant. Communicabant: In old times all, that were present, did Communicate. In the Council of Antioch it was decreed thus: Omnes, qui ingrediuntur in Ecclesiam Dei, 
Concil. Antiochen. Can. 2.  & Sacras Scripturas audiunt, aversantur autem perceptionem Dominici Sacramenti, etc. ab Ecclesia abijci oportet, etc. Al, that come into the Church of God, 
Concil. Aquisgran. Cap. 70.  and hear the Holy Scriptures, and refuse the receiving of the lords Sacrament, let them be put from the Church. These Decrees reach not only to the Ministers of the Church, but also to the whole people.  
Clemens that was Bishop in Rome, 
Clemens Epist. 2.  as it is thought, next after this Anacletus, saith thus, Tanta in Altario Holocausta offerantur, quanta populo sufficere debeant: Let so many loves be offered at the Altar, as may suffice to serve, (not only the Ministers, but also) the People.  
S. Ambrose saith, Munus oblatum totius populi fit: quia in uno Pane omnes significantur. 
Ambros. in 1. Corinth. 1●.  Per idem enim, quòd unum sumus, de uno Pane omnes sumere oportet: The oblation offered is made the whole peoples: for that in one Bread all are signified. For in that we are all one, we must all receive of one Bread.  
S. Chrysostom saith unto the people, Neque nos abundantiùs, vos autem minùs, de Sacra Mensa participamus: 
Chrysostom. in 2. Thessaly. Homi. 4.  Sed pariter, & ex aequo illam utrique degustamus: ●● either do we receive more, and you less of the Holy Table: but we taste thereof equally both together. The like might be alleged out of S. Jerome, S. Augustine, Dionysius, and others.  
But for as much as ye so bitterly tell us, that we misconstrue these words of Anacletus, and deceive the unlearned Reader with a lie, may it therefore please you farther to hear, what your own late Scholastical Doctors have written, and judged in this behalf.  
Thomas of Aquine saith, In Primitiva Ecclesia, quando magna vigebat devotio Fidei Christianae, statutum fuit, ut Fideles quotidiè Communicarent: In the Primitive Church, when great Devotion of the Christian Faith was in strength, it was ordained, that the faithful should receive the Communion every day. Durandus saith, In Primitiva Ecclesia omnes Fideles quotidiè Communicabant: 
Durandus in Rational. Li. 4. Cap. 55.  In the Primitive Church all the faithful daily received the Communion. 
Hugo Cardina in Luc. Cap. 24.  Hugo Cardinalis saith, In Primitiva Ecclesia omnes, quotquot intererant Canoni Missae, singulis diebus Communicabant. Et, si nollent communicare, egrediebantur post Offertorium: In the Primitive Church, as many as were present at the Canon of the Mass, did daily Communicate: and if they would not, they departed forth after the Offertory.  
If ye think, these authorities are not sufficient, 
johan. Cochlae. Contra Muscul. De Sacrificio.  johannes Cochlaeus saith, Omnes olim, tum Sacerdotes, tum Laici, cum Sacrificante Communicabant, sicut ex Canonibus Apostolorum, & ex Libris antiquissimorum Ecclesiae Doctorum perspicuè cognoscitur. Hic unicum hac de re Canonem recitabo, qui Calixto adscribitur: Peracta, etc. In old times both all the Priests, and all the Lay people received the Communion with the Minister, that had made the Oblation: as it is plainly perceived by the Canons of the Apostles, and by the Books of the Ancient Doctors of the Church. One Canon hereof I will allege written by Calixtus: etc. Likewise saith judocus Clichthoveus, In Primitiva Ecclesia Fideles quotidiè sumebant Communionem, 
In. Clichthoveut in Canon. Missae.  secundum illam Calixit sanctionem, Peracta, etc. In the Primitive Church the faithful received the Communion every day, according to this Decree of Calixtus: etc.  
Here you may see, not only, that these words are alleged by your own Doctors, under the name of Calixtus, wherein you have noted so great an error, but also that the same words, by the judgement of the same Doctors, are thought to pertain no less to the Lay people, then to the Priest.  
Now, M. harding, these things considered, I refer the indifferent judgement hereof to your own knowledge, and Conscience, whether of us two hath deceived the Reader with a lie.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 3.  
More over, when the People cometh to the holy Communion, the Sacrament ought to be given them in Both Kinds: for so both Christ hath commanded, and the Apostles in every place have ordained, and all the Ancient Fathers and Catholic Bishops have followed the same. And who so doth contrary to this, he (as Gelasius saith) 
D● Consec. Dist. & Comperio●●s.  committeth Sacrilege. And therefore we say, that our Adversaries at this day, who having violently thrust out, and quite forbidden the Holy Communion, do without the word of God, without the Authority of any Ancient Council, without any Catholic Father, without any Example of the Primitive Church, yea and without reason also, defend, and maintain their Private Masses, and the mangling of the Sacraments, and do this not only against the plain express Commandment of Christ, but also against all Antiquity, do wickedly therein, & are very church-robbers.  

M. harding.  
Soft, and fair, Masters. Ye show more heat than wit, more stomach than learning, more anger than reason. Ye say much, and prove little. But say ye, and say again, what ye will: we tell you boldly, 
Communion under both kinds not commanded expressly by Christ, nor ordained by the Apostles.  that 
* Untruths three together boldly presumed.  neither Christ ever commanded, * nor the Apostles ordained, * nor all the Ancient Fathers observed, that the Sacrament be given to the people none otherwise, but under both Kinds only. If Christ had expressly commanded it, the Church (of Rome) had not so long time received, and kept the use of one Kind. The Apostles, and sundry Holy Fathers Ministered both Kinds: we confess. That the one Kind was not also by them Ministered, and that it is utterly unlawful, we deny, 
† To prove a Negative, it is a folly. But you shall never prove the Affirmative.  and the same shall ye never be able to prove. touching this whole point, and how little, that ye allege out of Celasius, maketh for you, and concerning Mass not to be omitted for lack of Company, to communicate Sacramentally with the Priest: 
* Certainly enough. For in the same two Articles ye have uttered threescore and four great Untruths.  I have said yvongh in my answer to your fellow M. jewel his challenge. Bring ye other stuff, and better than this, or else all the world will see your halting, and the feebleness of your side. 
An unshamefast and slanderous lie.  That we have violently thrust out, and quite forbidden the Holy Communion, unless ye mean your own Schismatical, mutable, and polluted Communion, if there were any spark of shame, or hearted of lying in you, ye would never impute it unto us. God doth know, and the World is not unwitting, 
‡ Untruth, so sensible, and so gross, that a man may feel it with his fingers.  how much, how often, and how earnestly the Catholic Church exhorteth her Children to prepare themselves, to receive their 
* Untruth. No Learned Father ever called the Sacrament his God, or Maker.  Maker. And though the people of England of late years resorted not commonly thereto, yet the devotion of Christian folk in this Country of base Almaigne, in France, in Italy, in Spain, and in sundry other Christian Provinces, is so fervent in frequenting the Holy Communion, as if ye saw it, ye would be ashamed of your slanderous report. Let wise men, and good men judge, whether we be church-robbers, or ye unshamefast liars.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Where nothing is answered, it were not amiss, to reply nothing. If M. harding can only vouchsafe, to call us slanderous Reporters, ● unshamefast Liars: 
Institution in Both Kinds.  and the lords Supper a Schismatical, Mutable, pollutted Communion, it is sufficient: the matter needeth no farther proof. To this whole matter, M. harding saith, He hath sufficiently answered M. jewel. He hath answered, I grant: but how sufficiently, the matter itself will declare. How be it, he may not in any wise forgeate, that in the same two short Treaties to M. Jewel, containing only two and forty little leaves of Paper, he hath sent us over, and published threescore and four notable, and great Untruths: whereof, I think, he hath no great cause so much to glory.  
He saith, That the Sacrament should be delivered to the people in both kinds, neither Christ ever commanded it, nor the Apostles ever ordained it. Thus M. harding saith, only because it liketh him thus to say. Yet this own Catholic Doctors, & the Chief Champions of that side say far otherwise. 
De Miss. Publica Proroganda.  Gerardius Lorichius saith, Ipsius Sacramenti Institutio vult, ut Omnes unà manducemus, & bibamus: The very Institution of the Sacrament itself willeth, that we Eat, and Drink all together. And Ruardus Tapper the Dean of Louvain saith thus: 
Cassander 〈◊〉 Viraque Specie, Pa. 29.  Habito respectu ad Sacramentum, eiusque perfectionem, magis conveniret, sub utraque specie fieri Communionem, quàm sub Altera tantùm. Hoc enim magis consonum est eius Institutioni, & integritati, & refectioni Corporali: imò & Exemplo Christi, & Patrum Primitivae Ecclesiae: Consideration had unto the Sacrament, and to the perfection of the same, it were more convenient, that the Communion were Ministered under Both Kinds, then under One alone. For this were more agreeable to the Institution, and fullness thereof, and to the outward refection of the Body: Yea and to the Example both of Christ, and also of the Fathers of the Primitive Church.  
Certainly these words of Christ, Drink ye all of this: Do this in my Remembrance, are very plain words of commandment, and Institution. Therefore Chrysostom saith, Et in Pane, 
Chrysost. in. 1. Corin. Homi. 27.  & in Calais Christus dixit, Hoc facite in meam Commemorationem: Christ both in the Bread, and also in the Cup said, Do this in Remembrance of me. Likewise Theophylactus, Tremendus Calix pari cunctis conditione traditus est: 
Theophylact. 1. Corinth. 11. Paschasius.  The Reverend Cup is in equal manner delivered to al. And, whereas Christ saith, Drink ye all of this, Paschasius, to make the matter the plainer, putteth thereto these words: Tam Ministri, quàm reliqui Credentes: As well the Ministers, as the rest of the faithful. In like manner S. Augustine saith, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Quia Passus.  Simul hoc sumimus: simul bibimus: quia simul vivimus: We receive together: We drink together: because we live together.  
notwithstanding any promiss of Constancy, made to the contrary, yet, I trust, M. harding of his courtesy will believe, either S. Chrysostom, or S. Augustine, or Theophylacte, or Paschasius, or Lorichius, or Tapper, or his New Doctors, or the Old, or his own, or others. Otherwise, if he be fully determined to believe noman, it is reason, that noman believe him.  
Perhaps he will say, notwithstanding Christ's words be plain, yet they are not of force sufficient, to bind us for ever. For so writeth Cardinal Cusanus, Scripturae ad tempus adaptantur, 
Nicola. Cusanus Epist. 2. ad Bohaemos.  & variè intelliguntur: ita ut uno tempore secundum currentem Ecclesiae ritum exponantur: mutato verà ritu, iterum sententia mutetur: The Scriptures are applied to the states of divers times, and so are taken in divers senses: So that at one time they are expounded according to the current order of the Church: But the order of the Church being changed, the sense of the Scripture is like wise changed. So S. Augustine saith of the Heretics the Manichees: Expendunt ista, 
August. contra Epist. Parmeniani. Lib. 3 Cap. 2 Hilar. De Trinitaae, Lib. 9  non in statera aequa Divinarum Scripturarum, sed in statera dolosa Consuetudinum suarum: They weigh these matters, not in the equal balance of the Divine Scriptures, but in the deceitful Balance of their own Customs. Of the like sort of Her●tiques S. Hilary saith, Qui ea, quae Scripta sunt, negas, quid testat, nisi ut ea, quae non scripta sunt, credas? seeing thou deniest the things, that be written in the Scriptures, what remaineth there, but that thou must believe such things, as be not written in the Scriptures?  
But where have these men the Institution of their Half Communion? Who ordained it? Who commanded it? What Apostle, what Ancient Doctor, what Holy Father ever used it? 
M. harding. Pag. 48. b. Leo, Sermon. 4. De Quadragesima.  M. harding himself is forced to confess, by the report of Leo, that the first known Divisers, & Authors of it, were the old Heretics called the Manichees. Such is the Institution, and Antiquity of their Doctrine. It sprang first of Heresy, and was founded by Heretics.  
touching Gelasius, I have already in my Former Reply said so much, as then unto me seemed sufficient. The words be plain enough of themself, and need no Commentary: 
De Co●s. Dist. 2. Comperimus.  Aut integra Sacramenta percipiant, aut ab integris a●ceantur. Quia divisio unius eiusdemque Mysterij sine grandi sacrilegio non potest pervenire: Either let them receive the whole Sacraments (in Both Kinds:) or else let them be driven from the whole.  
Farther M. harding saith, God doth know, how much, how often, and how earnestly the Catholic Church exhorteth her Children, to prepare themselves to receive their Maker. O M. harding, why should you so fondly mock the world with so manifest follies? By what words, by what examples exhort you them? When ever said you, as Chrysostom saith unto the people? 
Chrysostom. ad Popul. Antioch. Homil. 61. In Epist ad Ephes. Homul. 3.  Depart ye hence: ye have no more right to stand here, than Heathens, & Infidels: ye are Wicked: ye are shameless: ye are Impudent, that stand by, & will not Communicate. And if the Catholic Church do so often, & so earnestly exhort her Children, how is it then, that the Pope, & his Cardinals do so seldom Communicate, scarcely once through the year? May we think, that the Pope, & his Cardinals be not the Children of the Church?  
last of all, ye say, ye exhort the people to receive their Maker I beseech you, M. harding, what Scripture, what Father, what Doctor ever taught you thus to say? The Sacrament is a Sacrament: it is not God. It is the Bread of our Lord, 
August. in johannem, tract. 59 Chrysost. in johan. Homil. 3.  as S. Augustine saith: it is not our Lord. It is a Creature corruptible: it is not the Maker of Heaven, and Earth. Accursed is he, that giveth the name, and glory of God unto a Creature, that is no God. S. Chrysostom saith, Nolimus quaeso Creatorem cum Creatura confundere: Ne illud audiamus, Seruierunt Creaturae potiùs, quàm Creatori: Let us not confound the Creature, and the Creator both together: lest it be said of us, They have honoured a Creature more than their Maker.    

The Apology, Cap. 13. Division. 1.  
We affirm that Bread and Wine are holy and heavenly Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ, and that by them Christ himself, being the true Bread of Eternal Life, is so presently given unto us, as that by Faith we verily receive his Body and his Blood. Yet say we not this so, as though we thought, that the Nature and Substance of the Bread and Wine is clearly changed, and goeth to nothing: as many have dreamt in these later times, & yet could never agree among themselves upon their own dreams. For that was not Christ's meaning, that the wheaten Bread should lay apart his own Nature, and receive a certain new Divinity: but that he might rather change us, and (to use Theophylactes words) 
In johan. Ca 6. De Sacr. Lib. 4. Cap. 4.  might transform us into his Body. For what can be said more plainly, then that, which Ambrose saith, Bread and Wine remain still the same, they were before: and yet are changed into an other thing: Or that which Gelasius saith, The Substance of the Bread, 
Substance. Accidents.  or the Nature of the Wine ceaseth not to be: Or that, which Theodoretus saith, After the Consecration, 
In Dialogis 1. &. 2.  the Mystical Signs do not cast of their own proper Nature: for they remain still in their Former Substance, Form, & Kind: Or that, which Augustine saith, 
In Sermon. ad Infants.  That, which ye see, is the Bread, & cup, & so our eyes tell us: but that, which your Faith requireth to be taught, is this: The Bread is the Body of Christ, and the Cup is his Blood: Or that, which Origen saith: 
In Matth. Homil. 15.  The Bread, which is sanctified by the word of God, as touching the material Substance thereof, goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the privy: Or y●, which Christ himself said, not only after the blessing of the Cup, but also after he had Ministered the Communion: I will drink no more of this fruit of the Vine. It is well known, that the fruit of the Vine is Wine, & not Blood.  

M. harding.  
In this Sacrament, 
What is that we call holy and heavenly Mysteries.  after Consecration, the Substance of Bread and Wine being turned into the Substance of the Body and Blood of Christ, the 
* Untruth. No Doctor, or Father ever taught such vain fo● lies.  out ward Forms of Bread and Wine, which remain, are the Sacraments of Holy things, the Body and Blood of Christ.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In every natural thing, two things are specially to be considered: the Substance, & the Accident, or, as M. harding calleth it, the outward Form. For example, In Bread, the Material thing, that séedeth us, and is changed into the Blood, and nourrishement of our bodies, is called the Substance of the Bread: The whiteness, the roundness, the Thickness, the Sweetness, & other the like, that are perceived outwardly by our senses, are called Accidents. Now saith M. harding, for as much as the Substance of the Bread, & Wine is removed by Consecration, & for that cause cannot be the Sacrament: therefore the Accidents, and forms, which remain, must needs be thought to be the Sacraments. And so upon a false Position, as shall appear, he layeth the foundation of all his Doctrine: by the old Rule, I trow, that he learned sometimes in his Sophistry, Ex Impossibili sequitur quodlibet: Of an Impossibility ye may conclude, what ye list: even as aptly, and as truly, as some have said, If Christ were not Christ, than Saint Patrick should be Christ.  
If M. harding had alleged, either Scripture, or Doctor, or Father, or Council, or any other Authority beside his own, he might happily have been believed.  
To this whole fancy, gentle Reader, in my Former Reply, I have made a several answer. Verily Chrise saith, 
Matthae. 26. Luc. 22. 1. Corinth. 10. 1. Corinth. 11. Cyprian in Oratio. Dominicam.  Non bibam ex hoc fructu vitis: I will no more drink, (not of these Accidents, but) of this, generation, and fruit, (and Substance) of the Vine. S. Paul saith, Panis, quem frangimus: (Not the forms, or Accidents, but) the Bread, that we break. And again, Quoties manducabitis Panem hunc: As often as ye shall eat (not these Accidents, but) this Bread. S. Cyprian saith of the same, I anis ex multorum granorum adunatione congestus: Bread moulded, and made of many corns. I doubt not, but M. harding will confess, that corns yield Flower, and 
Augustin. De Fide ad Petrum Ca 19 cyril. in johan. Lib. 4. Cap. 24.  Substance: and not only forms, and Accidents. S. Augustine calleth the Holy Mystery, Sacramentum Panis, & Vini: The Sacrament (not of forms, and Accidents, as M. harding saith, but) of Bread, and Wine, Cyrillus saith, Credentibus Discipulis fragmenta Panis dedit: Christ gave unto his Disciples believing in him, 
In, and By.  pieces of Bread, (not pieces of Accidents).  
But M. harding, having in his fantasy removed the whole Substance of the Bread, in steed thereof hath brought us in Holy forms, Holy Shows, & Holy Accidents. His Accidents be the Mysteries of Heavenly things: His Accidents be the Instruments of God's Grace: His Accidents be the causes of Remission of sin. We break Accidents: We eat Accidents: We drink Accidents. we are fed with Accidents: The Substance of our Bodies is increased with Accidents, And, to be short, he worketh all his Miracles by the Power of his Accidents.   

M. harding.  
Why be ye so loath to speak, 
The Defenders refuse to speak as the Church speaketh.  as the Church speaketh, that in this blessed Sacrament we receive the Body of Christ? Why had ye rather say after a 
* Untruth. For this phrase is used commonly of the Ancient Fathers: as shall appear.  strange manaer, that by Bread and Wine Christ himself is so presently given unto us, as that by Faith we verily receive his Body and his Blood?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I never thought, it had been so great an Heresy, to speak, as the Apostles of Christ, & the Learned Doctors of the Church have spoken before us. S. Paul saith, 
Roman. 6. Coloss. 2. Hieronym. De Corp. & Sanguine Christi. Augustin. in johan. tracta. 50. cyril. in johan. Lib. 11. Cap. 27. Hilarius De Trinit. Lib. 8.  Consepulti sumus cum Christo Per Baptismum in mortem: We are buried together with Christ By Baptism unto death. S. Jerome saith. Per Aquam Baptismi, vel per Ignem Spiritus Sancti Aeterni illius Panis Corpus efficitur: By the Water of Baptism, or By the Fire of the Holy Ghost, he is made the Body of the everlasting Bread. S. Augustine saith, Habes Christum in praesenti Per Fidem: In praesenti Per Baptismatis Sacramentum: In praesenti Per Altaris Cibum, & Potum: Thou haste Christ in Presence By Faith: In Presence By the Sacrament of Baptism: In Presence By the Meat, and Drink of the Altar. S. Cyril saith, Corporaliter Filius Per Benedictionem Mysticam nobis unitur, ut Homo: The Son of God By the Mystical Blessing is united unto us, as Man. S. Hilary saith, Christus est in nobis Per Sacramentorum Mysterium: Christ is in us By the Mystery of the Sacraments.  
And, lest M. harding should think, to take any great advantage by these words thus uttered, as he, & others of his side have often done, S. Augustine in most plain wise expoundeth the same: Si ad ipsas res Visibiles, quibus Sacramenta tractantur, 
August. De Baptismo contra Donatist. Lib. 3. Cap. 10.  animum conferamus, quis nesciat, eas esse corruptibiles? Si autem ad id, quod Per illas res agitur, quis non videat, non posse corrumpi? If we behold the Visible Creatures, (as the Bread, the Wine, the Water) wherein the Sacraments are ministered, who seeth not, that they be corruptible? But if we consider the things, that are wrought thereby, who seeth not, that they cannot be corrupted?  
Now judge thou, good Christian Reader, how childishly these quarrels be sought against us, without cause: & what Mystical Catholic ears M. harding hath, that cannot abide the phrases, and speeches of the ancient Fathers.   

M. harding.  
If a man should press you with your own words, 
What Presence of Christ in the Sacrament do the Defenders acknowledge.  and demand, what manner of Presence ye teach, affirming Christ himself presently to be given: I ween, ye would be found halting. For how say ye? If Christ be presently given unto us by Bread and Wine in the Sacrament, then is Christ present. If he be present, which ye must needs grant, tell us further, how is he present: according to the Substance of his Body, or by Grace, or according to the Majesty of his Godhead? The first, what shifts so ever ye seek, ye will not grant. And therefore is your own Apostle Martin Luther at fowl defiance with your masters, Zuinglius, Occolampadius, Caluine, and you, and so be his Disciples, joachimus Westphalus, Epinus, Pomeran, He shusius, Brentius, Illyricus, and many others, as ye know. If ye will say, he is Present by his Grace, so is he Present with all good men: and that not only when the Sacrament is ministered, but also at all other times. 
absent in Body.  Again, how can ye make good, that by Faith we receive his Body, and Blood? By Faith we receive Grace, and the Merits of his Death suffered in his Body with shedding of his Blood. But the Body and Blood itself, that is, the very 
* Untruths, two together. For properly, and in Substance, we receive it not. Read the Answer.  Substance of his Body and Blood: tell us, how by Faith (
* Untruths, two together. For properly, and in Substance, we receive it not. Read the Answer.  properly and truly to speak) as who should sat by Faith made Present, 
The Body of Christ not received by Faith only.  we receive it? Furthermore 
‡ We answer, It is a peevish question.  what have ye to answer to this question? If we receive the Body and Blood of Christ verily by Faith (for so ye say) we demand whether we receive the same by Faith only without the Body, or with the office of our Body. If th'office of our Body be required to the receiving of Christ's Body in the Sacrament, as Christ himself 
* Untruth. For Christ meant no such thing, as appeareth by the Fathers.  certainly meant (for else how obeyed the Disciples his commandment, to whom he said at his Supper, Take and eat, this is my Body, likewise of the Cup, Take and drink, which cannot be done but by the service of the Body) hereof than it followeth, that his Body is verily present. Now that it is not received by Faith only, thus we prove it by your own Doctrine: 
‡ A Sophistical, and a childish cavil. Read the Answer.  It is so received▪ as it is Present: but it is Present by Bread and Wine (as ye say,) Ergo it is received by Bread and Wine. To conclude, if by Bread and Wine, than not by Faith only. Will ye give me leave to say, what I think of you? Verily it seemeth by your vain ianglinge, that as S. Paul saith of such other like you, ye understand not, what ye speak, nor whereof ye affirm.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In what sense we may truly say, Christ is either Present with us, or absent from us, the matter is not so doubtful, or dangerous to be answered: unless M. harding have forgotten the Articles of his creed. For thus we are taught to believe, Christ is Ascended into Heaven, and fit that the Right Hand of God. Which Article S. Augustine expoundeth thus: 
August. Epist. 57 ad Dardan.  Noli dubitare ibi nunc esse hominem Christum jesum, unde venturus est: memoriterque recole, & fideliter tene Christianam Confessionem, Quoniam Resurrexit à mortuis: Ascendit ad Coelum: Sedet ad Dextram Patris: nec aliunde, quàm inde venturus est ad vivos mortuo●que iudicandos: Doubt thou not, but Christ Jesus, as Man, is there now, from whence he shall come: And hear thou well in mind, and faithfully believe the Christian Confession, That Christ is Risen again from the Dead: And Ascended into Heaven: And Sitteth at the Right Hand of the Father: And that he shall come again from thence, and from no where else, to Judge the quick, and the Dead. Again he saith, Homo, secundum Corpus, in Coelo est: 
August. in johan tracta. 31.  & de loco migrat: &, cùm ad alium locum venerit, in eo loco, unde venit, non est: Christ, as Man, according to his Body, is in Heaven: and passeth from place to place: and, when he cometh to an other place, he is not in the other place, from whence he came. Likewise again, Secundum Praesentiam Maiestatis, 
August. in johan. tractat. 50.  semper habemus Christum nobiscum: Secundum Praesentiam Carnis, rectè dictum est Discipulis, Me autem non semper habebitis: according to the Presence of his Majesty, we have Christ evermore with us: But according to the Presence of the Flesh, it is true, that Christ said to his Disciples, Me you shall not have always with you.  
So saith the Holy Father, and Martyr Vigilius, 
Vigilius contra Eutychen, Lib. 1.  Del Filius, secundum Humanitatem suam, recessit à nobis: Secundum Divinitatem, ait, Ecce ego vobiscum sum usque ad Consummationem saeculi: The Son of God, according to his Manhood, is gone from us: But according to his Godhead, he saith, Behold, I am with you until the end of the world. And again, Et nobiscum est, & non est nobiscum: quia quos reliquit Humanitate, non Deseruit Divinitate: Christ is with us: and yet he is not with us: For whom he left, touching his humane Nature, or his Body, touching his Godhead, he left them not. And again, Verbum ubique est: Caro autem eius ubique non est: The Word, (or Godhead of Christ) is everywhere, but his Flesh, or Body is not everywhere. So saith S. Cyril. Etsi Corpore abfuero, 
cyril. in johannem. Li. 10. Ca 7.  Praesens tamen ero, ut Deus: Although I be absent as touching my Body: yet, as God, I will be Present.  
And to leave an infinite number of other Learned, and Catholic Fathers, 
Faith Eateth.  that have written the like, 
Origen. in Matthae. Homi. 33.  Origen saith thus: Secundum Divinitatis Naturam non peregrinatur à nobis: Peregrinatur secundum dispensationem Corporis, quod suscepit: Christ, according to his Godhead, is not a stranger to us: But he is a stranger, according to the dispensation of the Body, that he received.  
Thus is Christ both absent, and Present: Present in Majesty, absent in Body. And in this sense Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. 1. Corinth. Homil. 6.  Semper nobiscum est Christus: Neque enim, nisi nobiscum esset Christus, superesset Ecclesia: Christ is evermore Present with us. For unless he were present, the Church of God could not continue.  
But M. harding saith, How can ye make good, that by Faith we receive his Body, and Blood? By Faith we receive Grace, etc. This question should rather have been demanded of S. Augustine, and of other Learned Doctors, and Ancient Fathers of the Church. 
Augustin. in johannem, tract. 25. Tertull. De Resurrectione Carnis.  How could S. Augustine say, Quid paras dentem, & ventrem? Crede, & Manducasti: What preparest thou thy tooth, and thy Belly? Believe: and thou haste eaten. How could Tertullian say, Christus auditu devorandus est: intellectu ruminandus est: & Fide digerendus est? Christ must be devoured by Hearing: chewed by understanding: digested by Faith.  
How could Origen say, 
Origen. in Matthae. Tracta. 26. Cyprian. De Coena Domini.  sanguis Tesamenti infusus est in Corda nostra? The Blood of the Testament is powered into our hearts. How could S. Cyprian say, Esus huius Carnis est quaedam aviditas, & quoddam defiderium manendi in Christo? Quod est esca Carni, hoc est Animae Fides. Non dentes ad mordendum acuimus: sed Fide sincera Panem Sanctum frangimus: The eating of this Flesh is a certain greediness, and a certain desire to tarry in Christ. That meat is unto our Flesh, the same is Faith unto our Souls. We sharpen not out teeth to bite withal: But with pure Faith we break this Holy Bread. To be short, how could S. Augustine say, 
August. in johan. tracta. 26.  Credere in Christum, hoc est manducare Panem vivum? To Believe in Christ, that is the eating of the Bread of Life. And again, Nolite parare fauces, sed Cor: Prepare not your mouths (to Eat of this Bread, but) prepare your Hearts. To these & other like Ancient Catholic Fathers M. harding should have said, How can ye make good, that by Faith we receive Christ's Body, and Blood? Thus they witness: thus they writ: thus they say: and therefore, unless M. harding can find untruth in their words, they make it good.  
But to force onward his matter, he saith: Properly, and truly to speak, how can we Eat Christ's Body by Faith? Here it might have pleased M. harding to remember, that these phrases, To Eat Christ: To Drink Christ: To Digeste Christ: To be Fed with Christ: To dwell in Christ: To be clad with Christ: To be graft in Christ: and other the like, are not plain, ordinary, usual, and Common Speeches: but Mystically, and Covertly uttered under a Figure: thereby to give us to understand, that Christ is our Spiritual Meat: our Spiritual Drink: our Spiritual Sustenance: our Spiritual house: our Spiritual rob: and our Spiritual stock. Therefore S. Augustine saith, Nisi manducaveritis Carnem filii Hominis, & Sanguinem biberitis, non habebitis Vitam in vobis. 
August. De Doctrina Christiana, Lib. 3. ca 16.  Facinus, vel Flagitium videtur jubere. Figura ergo est, Praecipiens Passioni Domini esse communicandum, & suaviter, atque utiliter recondendum in memoria, quòd pro nobis Caro eius Crucifixa, & vulnerata sit: unless ye eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, and Drink his Blood, ye shall have no life in you. He seemeth by these words to command us to do an horrible wickedness. (For it is an horrible matter to eat Man's Flesh, or to drink Man's Blood.) Therefore this is a Figure, (or manner of speech) commanding us to be partakers of Christ's Passion, and comfortably to lay up in our mind, that his Flesh was Crucified, and wounded for our sakes.  
So saith Gratian▪ 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Species.  touching the same, Quidam non improbabiliter exponunt Carnis, & Sanguinis Veritatem, ipsam earundem rerum efficientiam, id est, Remissionem Peccatorum: touching these words, The Truth of Christ's Flesh, and Blood, some men not unaptely understand thereby, the effect, and force of Christ's Flesh, and Blood, that is to say, The Remission of our Sins. And so S. Augustine saith, Laverunt Stolas suas in Sanguine Agni, 
Augu. in Apoc. Homil. 6.  hoc est, in Gratia Dei per Christum: They washed their coats in the Blood of the Lamb, that is to say, in the Grace of God through Christ. This Grace flowing from Christ's Body upon the Cross, and given to the Faithful in the Ministration of the Holy Mysteries, oftentimes beareth the name of Christ's Body, and is the ground, and Substance of the Sacrament: And who so ever is partaker of this Grace, is also partaker of Christ's Body. Therefore S. Augustine saith, Cùm essent omnibus Communia Sacramenta, 
Aug. in Psal. 77.  non Communis erat omnibus Gratia, quae est Virtus Sacramentorum: Whereas the Sacraments were common to all, yet the Grace thereof was not common to al. And that is the Power, and strength of the Sacraments. Likewise S. Ambrose, In similitudinem quidem accipis Sacramentum: Sed Verae Naturae Gratiam, Virtutemque consequeris: 
Ambros. De Sacramen. li. 6. ca 1  Ye take the Sacrament in Representation, or Remembrance: But ye obtain thereby the Grace and Power of Christ's Very Nature.  
Here M. Harding once again moveth a very peerless question. We demand, saith he, whether we receive the same Body of Christ by Faith only, without our Body, or with the office of our Body. Any child might soon be able to assoil this reddle. Rabanus Maurus saith, 
Rabanus Maurus Lib. 1. Ca 31.  as it is alleged before, Sacramentum ore percipitur: Virtute verò Sacramenti interior homo satiatur: The Sacrament is received with the bodily mouth: but with the virtue of the Sacrament, (which is the Body of Christ) the Inner man (that is, not the Body, but the Soul) is filled. So saith Augustine, Cùm videbitis Filium Hominis alcendentem, ubi erat priùs, certè vel tunc videbitis, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 27.  quia non eo modo, quo putatis, erogat Corpus suum: certè vel tunc intelligetis, quia Gratia eius non consumitur morsibus: When ye shall see the Son of Man ascending thither, where he was before, then at the least, ye shall see, that he giveth not his Body in such sort, as you imagine: Then shall you understand, that his Grace is not consumed with bit of mouth. 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 26.  Again he saith, Qui manducat intus, non foris: qui manducat in cord, non qui premit dente: He that eateth the Christ's Body in wardly, not that eateth (the Sacrament) outwardly: He that eateth the Body of Christ itself in his heart, not that presseth (the Sacrament) with his tooth.  
M. harding argueth farther, Christ's Body is so received, as it is Present: But it is present by Bread and Wine (ye say) Ergo it is received by Bread, and Wine: To conclude, if by Bread, and Wine, than not by Faith only. If M. harding had better considered the Rules of his Old Sophistry, he might soon have seen the wants, and deformities of these reason. Amongst children it is called Ignoratio Elenchi: Which is the Simplest Fallax of all the rest.  
It is true, that of our part, it is not either our hand,, or our mouth, but Faith only, that receiveth the Body of Christ: but the same Body of Christ is offered, and represented unto our Faith by mean of the Sacraments. We speak of such Instruments of receiving, as are of ourself, and be within us: M. harding answereth of the Sacraments, that be external Instruments, and are wholly without us. So in Baptism, notwithstanding we have Christ Present of our part Only by Faith▪ yet S. Augustine saith, as it is said before, Habemus Christum in Presenti per Baptismatis Sacramentum: We have Christ Presently by the Sacrament of Baptism. Thus is Christ Present unto us: Of his part, Only by his Grace: Of our part, Only by our Faith: By the Sacraments, Only, 
Certainty of Doctrine.  as by mean of outward Instruments, to move our senses. This light, and childish error, as I have said before, is called Ignoratio Elenchi, and therefore seemeth to proceed of Ignorance. M. harding should have better examined the force of his Arguments, before he thus suddenly sent them abroad.  
touching the matter itself, it is not the Bodily mouth, but Faith alone, that receiveth, and embraceth Christ's Body. S. Augustine saith, Panis iste Interioris Hominis quaerit esuriem. 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 26.  Qui credit in eum, manducat: This Bread requireth the hunger of the Inner Man. He that beleeuth in him, eateth his Body.  
This is no tangling, as you say, M. harding: It is the Ancient Catholic Doctrine of the Church of God. We be well assured of it, & know certainly, what we say. But touching the certainty of your Doctrine in this point, I have briefly touched it in my Former Reply, so much, as I then thought might seem sufficient. some of you hold, the Christ's Body passeth down into the stomach: some, that it entereth only into the Mouth, & goeth no further: Some others say, Quàm citò Species teruntur dentibus, 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Tribus gradib. In Glossa.  tam citò in Coelum rapitur Corpus Christi: As soon as the forms of the Bread be grated with the teeth, straight way the Body of Christ is caught up into Heaven. An other of you saith, A Mouse eateth the Body of Christ: An other saith, Nay; a Mouse cannot eat it: Peter Lombarde, the grand Master of all your School, is piteously confounded in the case, and cannot imagine, what to say. 
4. Senten. dist. 13.  For after he had himself moved the question, Quid igitur sumit Mus, vel quid manducat? What is it then, that the Mouse receiveth, or what eateth it? He answereth, Deus novit: Now God knoweth: (As for my part, I cannot tell). Such be your Doctors, M. harding: such is your Doctrine. Therefore, to conclude with your own words, it appeareth by your agreement, and your answers, ye understand not the things ye speak of: but both● affirm, and deny, ye know not what.   

M. harding.  
As ye proceed forth, ye give warning to your Readers, not to take you so, as though ye held with transubstantiation. And here ye speak thereof as best becometh your scoffing spirit, calling it a dream of men of later times, whereof they could never yet agree within themselves. By which words your eloquence hath set forth your spite and lying at once. For albeit the term of transubstantiation be 
* Mark this Antiquity. This Council was holden twelue-hundred and fifteen years after Christ.  of no greater antiquity, 
Transubstantiation.  than the Council Laterane under Innocentius the third, where it was by the Holy Ghost, and the Fathers there devised, as very fit for opening of the Truth impugned by the Berengarians: yet is the Doctrine thereof no less Ancient, than the Gospel itself. For maugre the malice of the Devil, and of all the Sacramentaries, the Old Truth shall prevail, by which we are taught, that, which was Bread, by the Mystical blessing to be 
‡ As in a Mystery, or Sacrament: but not in Substance: Otherwise it is a great Untruth.  made Christ's Body: and that which was wine, to be made his Blood, as I have other wheres sufficiently declared. And the Church hath 
* Untruth manifest, As shall appear.  always hereupon perfitly accorded, touching the Substance: though certain schoolmen in their Scholastical Disputations, where oftentimes victory is sought, and Faith not impugned, about discussion of some school point, have without prejudice of our belief disagreed.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
As for the scoffs, and spites, and lies, ye speak of, M. harding, let him have them, that hath best deserved them. Then verily, without great wrong, you cannot lose them.  
Touching your New Fantasy of Transubstantiation, whether it be a dream, or no, & whether the dreamers of it themselves were ever yet able, rightly to expound their own dream, it appeareth partly by your own Confession. Ye grant, the name and term thereof was never known, or heard of in all the World, until your late Council of Laterane, held in Rome under Pope Innòcentius the third, 
Transubstantiation New, & doubtful.  in the year of our Lord a thousand two hundred and fifteen, 
Anno. 1215.  in the time of King john the King of England, and never before. So long the Church of God was able well to stand without your Transubstantiation.  
And all be it ye tell us, notwithstanding the newness of the name, yet nevertheless the Doctrine thereof hath still continued in the Church, and hath been evermore received, and confessed of all the faithful: and that maugre the malice of the Devil, and of all the Sacramentaries, it is as Ancient, as the Gospel, or as Christ himself: Yet of that other side ye confess plainly, that for the space of twelve hundred years, and more, Roman wist, by what name to call it.  
But for as much, as you think it lawful for you to avouthe, and affirm, what you list, true, or false, without controlment: whereas ye say, this late Faith of yours is as Ancient, as the Gospel, know you, that some of the best learned of your own side, have said, It is a new Point in Religion: and therefore not so Ancient, as you seem to make it: It is a doubtful Conclusion: and therefore no Faith at al. 
Cutberbertue Tonstallus▪ De Eucharistia, Lib. 1. Pag. 46,  D. Tonstal thereof saith thus, De modo, quo id fieret, fortasse satius erat▪ Curiosum quenque suae relinquere Coniecturae: sicut liberum fuit ante Concilium Lateranum: Of the manner, and mean, how this might be (whether by Transubstantiation, or otherwise) perhaps it had been better to leave every man, that would be Curious, to his own Conjecture: as before the Council of Laterane it was left at liberty. You say, it is as Ancient as the Gospel: D. Tonstal saith, It is but new, and came in twelve hundred years, and more, after the Gospel: You say it is the Catholic Faith: D. Tonstal saith, It is a Conjecture, or a guess (which differeth not much from a dream) and that before the said late Council of Laterane, noman was bound to believe it. And here it may please you to consider indifferently with yourself: It it were left at Liberty, as D. Tonstal saith, for any man either to receive it, or to refuse it, as he thought good, how could it then be the Catholic Faith? If it were the Catholic Faith, as you say, & that maugre the malice of the Devil, how then could it so many hundred years be left at liberty?  
Hereof ye say, ye have written sufficiently otherwheres. All this I grant: your Books are known. How be it, if you would have written no more but Truth▪ ye might have saved much time, and spared some paper. But if it shall not mislike you, once again more advisedly to view the same, ye shall find in the very first Division thereof three great Untruths together, all within the space of Fourteen lines.  
Now whether your fantasy of Transubstantiation be a Dream, or no, by the Constancy, and Certainty thereof, and by the agreement of your Doctors, that founded it first▪ it may appear. Petrus Lombardus, y● only General of all this Camp, 
Senten 4. dist. 11. Si autem, etc.  hereof useth these speeches: Quibusdam ita Videtur: Quidam dicunt: Quidam tradunt: Quidam concedunt: Alij putaverunt, Substantiam ibi Panis & Vini remanere: Some men judge thus: some say thus: some have written thus: some grant this: Some others have thought thus, that the very Substance of the Bread, and Wine remaineth still. Here is a strange agreement of Learned men, specially in a case of the Catholic Faith. But hereto what saith Peter Lombarde himself, that taketh upon him as a judge to determine these doubts? How is he resolved? Or how agréethe he in judgement with himself? His answer is this, Si autem quaeritur, qualis sit illa conversio, An Formalis, An Substantialis, An alterius generis, definire non sufficio: If a question were moved, what manner of Conversion, or change this is: Whether it be in Form, or in Substance, or of some other sort, I am not able to discuss it. Here we may see, the blind leadeth the blind. He that setteth himself before all the rest, 
Transubstantiation New, & doubtful.  and would be taken for a guide, knoweth not where to set his own feet. Gabriel Biel saith, Quomodo sit ibi Corpus Christi, Vtrùm per Conuersionem alicuius in ipsum, an sine Conuersine incipiat esse Corpus Christi cum Pane, manentibus Substantia, & Accidentibus Panis, non invenitur expressum in Canone Bibliae: How the Body of Christ is there, whether it be by changing of some thing into it, 
Gabriel. in Canonem, Lect. 40.  Or Christ's Body begin to be there together with the Bread, both the Substance, and the Accidents of the Bread remaining still without changing, it is not found expressed in the Canon of the Bible. I leave Innocentius, Scotus, and sundry others of your Scholastical Doctors, with their doubtful dreams, and gheasses to like purpose.  
Whether these be dreams, or no, I leave to you, M. harding, to consider. Verily Innocentius. 3. saith, Fuetunt, qui dicerent, quòd, sicut post Consecrationem vera Panis remanent Accidentia, ita Panis remanet vera Substantia: There were some, that said, that as after Consecration there remain the very Accidents, or forms of Bread, so likewise the very Substance of the same Bread remaineth still. And this same judgement Durandus, although he himself hold it not, yet he will not have it in any wise to be condemned.  
Now, M. harding, if you dissemble not, but believe constantly, as you say, then cannot these things stand, without Prejudice of your believe.   

M. harding.  
But Lord what meant ye to allege Theophylacte, and S. Ambrose, whose Doctrine is so contrary to yours, 
Theophylacte contrary to these Defenders.  as light is to darkness? Theophylacte expounding these words of Christ in S. john. As the Living Father hath sent me, even so live I by the Father, and he that eateth me, shall live by me, saith thus: Dost thou not hear a dreadful saying? We eat not pure God, for he is untoucheable, and unbodily. Neither can he be comprehended with eyes, nor teeth. Neither eat we the flesh of a pure man: for that can profit nothing at al. But now that God hath united unto himself flesh after a unspeakable contemperament, the flesh is also become lifemakinge. Not for that it is passed away into the Nature of God, 
* This similitude of f●y iron quite overthroweth the whole fantasy of Transubstantiation.  beware of that, but after the likeness of fyryyron, which abideth iron, and showeth the operation of fire: even so (quoth he) the flesh of our Lord abiding flesh, is lifemakinge, as being the flesh of God the word. then as (saith he) I live by the Father, who is life, so he that eateth me, shall live by me, being tempered with me, as also being transelemented into me, who have Power to vivificate or give life. Which last words your own Doctor Oecolampadius hath thus turned, Dum quodammodò miscetur, & transelementatur in me, qui vivificare potest, corrupting the sound Doctrine of the writer with his forged 
* Untruth, presumed only of ignorance For, Quodammodò, is in the text: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  quodammodò, which he found not in the Greek there placed, and breaking the congruity of the Latin speech, by putting that in the third Person, that aught to be in the first. If faith wrought all this matter, then after your meaning, might we eat God, which Theophylacte denieth. He saith, he that eateth Christ's flesh, is tempered together with him, and transelemented into him, so as he is made one Body with him, 
Cap. 3. Ephe. 5.  as Cyrillus expoundeth the place of S. Paul to the Ephesians: where he saith, that we be Concorporales, that is to say, of one Body with Christ. And an other where, flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bones.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Of Theophylactes Authority, we never made any great account. He is but a very late writer, in comparison of the Ancient Fathers. For the most part of that he writeth, he is but an Abbridger of Chrysostom. He writeth against the Church of Rome, stoutly maintaining a known Heresy, concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost. notwithstanding, in this place we alleged his words to good purpose. For, as he saith, we are Transelemented, or transnatured. and changed into Christ, even so, and none otherwise, we say, The Bread is Transelemented or changedinto Christ's Body. But not withstanding this change. we remain still in Substance, 
Theophylacte. To eat God.  as we were before: Therefore we say, notwithstanding the like change, The Substance of the Bread in like manner remaineth still.  
But what fancy came in your head, M. harding, thus to allege, and so vehemently to force this place of Theophylacte? What one word speaketh he, either of your Transubstantiation, or of your Real presence, or of your Corporal, and fleshly Eating? Verily, as, by any his express words, he nothing aideth you, so by his example of Fiery iron, he seemeth quite to overthrow you. For if ye compare the Sacrament with a piece of Burning iron, (which nevertheless was not Theophylactes meaning: and therefore ye are therein much deceived) then, as the iron, although it be fiery, yet notwithstanding in Nature, and Substance is iron still: Even so the Bread, although it be made the Sacrament of Christ's Body, and so the Instruments of the Grace of God, yet, that notwithstanding, in Nature, and Substance in Bread still.  
Here, lest you, giving over your Transubstantiation, as knowing it to be only a late found fantasy, should hope nevertheless by this Example of Fiery iron to establish your Real Presence, and to say, that as the fiere is Really, and in deed in the iron, so the Body of Christ is in deed, and Really in the Sacrament: it may please you to call to mind, that in the Holy Learned Fathers, the same example, and like Form of speech, is used also of the Sacrament of Baptism. In the Council of Nice it is written thus: 
Council Nicen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Vides Aquam: Cogita de virtute Dei, quae latet in Aqua. Cogita, A quam esse plenam Ignis Divini: Thou seest the Water: Think thou of the Power of God, that lieth in the Water: Think thou, that the Water is full of Heavenly Fire. Yet, I trow, ye will not have us believe, as an Article of our Faith, that this fire, whereby is meant the Blood of Christ, is in deed, and Really in the Water.  
These, and such other the like, may not always be taken, as phrases of Precise Truth: but rather as Amplifications, or heats of speech, the better to stir up, and to inflame the minds of the Hearers. And in this sort, and sense, to leave other Authorities, 
Hosius in Conf. Petruovien. Cap. 48.  Hosius, your own Doctor saith, Opera nostra respersa sunt Sanguine Christi: Our Works be sprinkled with the Eloude of Christ. So saith Pope Innocentius. 3. Virtutes nostiae Crucis Christi Sanguine Purpurantur: Our Virtues are died, 
Innocen. De Mysterijs Miss. Li. 2.  as red as Purple, in the Blood of the Cross of Christ. Thus the Holy Fathers say, The Bread of the Holy Mysteries, and the Water of Baptism are full of fiere.  
Further Theophylacte saith, The Body of Christ is Eaten: But the godhead is not Eaten: because it is untoucheable, and uncomprehensible unto our senses. Hereof you would seem to reason thus: If Faith wrought all this matter, then might we Eat God. For by Faith we believe in God.  
first, 
Psalm 33.  touching the eating of God, 
1. Pet. 2.  God himself saith, 
Augu. De Verb. Domini second Lucam, Serm 29 August. Confess.  Gustate, & videre, quòd suavis est Dominus: Taste, and see that the Lord is delectable. S. Augustine saith, Panis est, & Panis est, & Panis est: Deus Pater, Deus Filius, & Deus Spiritus Sanctus: It is Bread, It is Bread, and it is Bread: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Again he saith, Deus Panis intus est animae meae: God is the Inward Bread of my Soul. Therefore it is not so thoroughly, and undoubtedly true, that you say, the Nature of God cannot be Eaten.  
notwithstanding, for sparing of words, and time, 
Lib 1. Articulo. 8. Divisi. 16.  herein I will refer you to my Former Reply. There shall you find this whole Objection fully answered.  
You say, Theophylactes reason standeth thus, God cannot be Eaten: because be cannot be comprehended, either with eyes, or with teeth. But Christ's Body may be eaten: 
To eat God.  Therefore it must follow in the Conclusion, that with our eyes we may see it: and with our teeth receive it. Here would I feign learn of you, M. harding, when ye saw Christ's Body visibly in the Sacrament with your eyes, or when ye pressed it with your teeth? 
Augu. in johan. Tracta 25.  If your teeth can receive it, why saith S. Augustine, Quid paras Dentem, & Ventrem? Why preparest thou thy Tooth, and they Belly? If your Bodily eye can see it, why say you, It is Invisible? If it be Invisible, how is it seen? If it be seen, how is it Invisible? It appeareth, that either Theophylacte the Master, or you the Scholare, are deceived: or one of you understandeth not the others meaning. Certainly, as Christ's Body is seen in the Sacrament, so is it eaten in the Sacrament. But it is not Really, or fleshly seen: Therefore it is not Really, or fleshly Eaten.  
To avoid error herein, it behoveth us to understand, that, To eat God, is to have the fruition of the Divine Nature, and to be Incorporate into God. But the Majesty of God so far surmounteth the capacity of man, that as he is in himself in Nature, and godhead, no mortal creature is able to conceive him, but only in the Face, 
Hebr. 1.  and sight of jesus Christ the Son of God. Therefore S. Paul saith, Christus est Splendor Gloriae, & Character Substantiae Dei: Christ is the Brightness of the Glory, and the express Image of the Substance of God. S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. in Psal. 134.  Tu quomodò contingis Deum? Quia Verbum Caro factum est, & habitavit in nobis: How dost thou touch God? (He answereth) Because the Word became Flesh, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta 2.  and dwelt in us. Again he saith, Si Christus sic veniret, ut Deus, non agnosceretur: If Christ came so, as he is God, noman could know him. S. Gregory saith, 
Grego. in Ezech. Lib. 1. Homil. 14.  Dominus murus nobis non esset, si forinsecùs non fuisset: Intus nos non protegeret, si exteriùs non appareret: Our Lord were no wall unto us, if he had not been in the Form of Man: He could not inwardly defend us, if he had not outwardly appeared. 
Eccles. Hierar. Cap. 3.  So saith Dionysius, Si cupimus Communionem habere cum Deo, oportet nos in Divinissimam illius vitam, quam egit in Carne, intueri: If we desire to have Communion with God, we must behold that heavenly life, that he led in the Flesh. Thus, as God is God, in Majesty, and in himself, we understand him not, we conceive him not, we know him not: That is to say, we have no fruition of him, 
Augustin in Psalm. 119.  we eat him not. Therefore S. Augustine saith, jesum Christum secundum id, quod erat Verbum apud Deum, Paruuli non capiunt. Quomodò ergo capiunt, qui Lac capiunt? jesum Christum, inquit, & hunc Crucifixum. Suge quod pro te factus est: & cresces ad id, quod est: Little once understand not jesus Christ, according to that he was the Word with the Father. How then do they receive him, that receive milk? S. Paul saith, they receive jesus Christ Crucified. Suck that thing, that he was made for thee: and thou shalt grow to that he is.  
Thus in the Holy Mysteries there is represented unto us, not the Divine Nature of Christ, whereby he is Equal to the Father: But his Death, and Humility, whereby he abased himself, and was made Equal unto us. This is the Spiritual Meat, and Drink, and the only feeding of the Soul. ● Thereof S. Paul saith, 
1. Cor. 11.  As often as ye shall eat of this Bread, and drink of this Cup, ye shall publish (not the Divine Nature, or godhead, but) the lords Death until he come. So saith Hesychius, 
Hesych. in Leut. Lib. 1. Cap. 2. Ambrosi. in 1. Cor. 11.  Comedimus hunc Cibum, sumentes eius memoriam Passionis: We Eat this Food, receiving the memory (not of his glory, but) of his Passion. So saith S. Ambrose, Quia Morte Domini liberati sumus, huius rei memores, in Edendo, & Potando, Carnem, & Sanguinem, quae pro nobis oblata sunt, significamus: Because we are delivered by our lords Death, being mindful thereof, in eating, and Drinking, We Signify, or represent the Flesh, and Blood, that were offered up for us. Thus in the Holy Mysteries we Eat, and Drink the Sacrament of Christ Crucified in the Humility of his Flesh. But his Divine Nature in Godhead, 
Christ's Body giveth Life.  and Majesty cannot be Represented, or expressed by any Sacraments.  
It was all vain, and lost labour for you, M. harding, so earnestly to prove, that Christ's Body quickeneth, and geuéeth life. We know it: We Confess it: 
johan. 6.  We feel it: Christ himself saith it: I am the Bread of Life: He that eateth of this Bread, shall live for ever.  
This talk impeacheth noman, but yourself. For you tell us, and would have it holden, as an Article of your Faith, not only, that the wicked man without Faith, but also that the dumb creature void of Reason, may receive the very Body of Christ, and that Substantially, Verily, & in deed. Thus you divide and sunder Christ's Body, from his Spirit: and, contrary to Theophylacte, and to all the Ancient Fathers, and to Christ himself, ye say, It may be Really received without Life.  
But we say, 
Ambros. De Benedictionib Patriarch. Cap. 6.  with S. Ambrose, Qui accipit hunc Panem, non moritur morte Peccatoris: Quia hic Panis est Remissio Peccatorum: Who so eateth this Bread (not the Sacrament of Christ's Body, but Christ's Body itself) dieth not the death of a Sinner: For this Bread is the Remission of Sins. We say with S. Augustine, Qui Carnem Domini non sumit, non habet vitam: &, qui eam sumit, habet vitam, 
Augu in johan. Tracta. 26.  & hanc utique aeternam: He that receiveth not the Flesh of Our Lord, hath no Life: and, he that receiveth it, hath Life, and the same Everlasting. Again we say with S. Augustine, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. eodem.  Huius rei Sacramentum de Mensa Dominica sumitur, quibusdam ad vitam, quibusdam ad Mortem: Res verò ipsa, cuius Sacramentum est, Omni homini ad vitam, Nulli ad exitium: quicunque eius Particeps fuerit: The Sacrament (of Christ's Body) is received from the lords Table, to some unto Life, to some unto Death: But the thing itself, (that is, the Body of Christ, whereof this is a Sacrament) is to all men unto Life, and to Noman unto Death: Who soever shallbe partaker of it.  
For some further declaration hereof, it appeareth by the witness of the ancient Learned Doctors, and Fathers, that we are Really, and Corporally joined, and united unto Christ, not only by the Mysteries of the Holy Supper, but also by Faith, by Baptism, by the Spirit of God, by Love, and other ways. Of Faith S. Augustine saith thus: 
August. Epist. 31.  Per Fidem Adcorporamur in jesu Christo Domino nostro: By Faith we are incorporate in Christ jesus our Lord. And again, Qui venit ad me, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 25.  Incorporatur mihi: He that cometh unto me, is Incorporate into me. 
Chryso. in Epist. ad Rom. Hom. 25 Chryso. in Epist. ad Colos. Hom. 6.  S. Chrysostom saith, Quid nobis esse non vult, omnibus modis nos sibi conglutinans, & coniungens? What will not Christ be unto us? For by all manner means he cleaveth, and fasteneth himself unto us. Again in plainer sort he saith, Dominum ipsum amplecteris, & Commisceris, & subvectus coniungeris Corpori illi, quod sursum sedet in Coelis: Thou embracest the Lord himself, and art mingled with him, and being here benea the, art ioived to that Body, that sitteth in Heaven above.  
In like manner he writeth of the Sacrament of Baptism: 
Chryso. in Epist. ad Ephe. Hom. 20.  Quomodò ex Carne eius sumus, & ex Ossibus eius? Quemadmodum ille fine Virili Congressu natus est ex Spiritu Sancto, ita nos illud efficimur in Lavacro: How are we of his Flesh, and of his Bones? He answereth, As Christ was borne by the Holy Ghost without the knowledge of Man, even so in the font (of Baptism) we are made the same (that is, his Flesh, and his Bones).  
So saith Leo, 
Leo, De Nativitate Domi. Sermo. 3.  Sicut Dominus Factus est Caro nostra nascendo, ita nos facti sumus ipsius (Caro) Renascendo: As our Lord was made our Flesh, by that he was Borne: so are we made his Flesh, by that we are new borne.  
So saith S. Jerome, 
Hieronym. 〈◊〉 Viro Perfecta.  De Carne eius sumus, & de Ossibus eius: Ipse enim est Caput Corporis Ecclesiae: We are of his Flesh, and of his Bones: For that he is the Head of His Body, 
Quodammodò.  which is the Church.  
Thus, M. Harding, we are joined together, and temp●ared with Christ, not only by the Holy Mysteries, but also by the Sacrament of Baptism, & by Faith. And Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in. 1. Cor. Hom. 8.  Ne simpliciter teneamus Christum, sed etiam illi conglutinemur. Nam si quicquam secesserimus ab eo, Perimus: Let us not only hold Christ, but also let us be fast glued unto him. For if we fall any thing from him, we are utterly lost. Must we therefore conclude, M. harding, that the Water of Baptism is Transubstantiate, no part of the Substance thereof remaining still: or that Christ's Body is Really, and grossly Present in that Sacrament, as you have imagined of the other?  
Ye find great fanlte with Oecolampadius, for corrupting, as ye say, the sound Doctrine of Theophylacte with his forged, Quodammodò, and for breaking the Congruity of the Latin speech, by putting the third person, in place of the first. Of the Latin Congruity, I will say nothing. The Learned think, that Oecolampadius was as skilful both in the Latin tongue, and in the Greek, as M. harding. But for the forging of, Quodammodò, why do you not as well find fault with Theophylacte himself? For if it be a forgery, he himself hath likewise forged the same, Quodammodò: and if that may be called Corruption, he hath also corrupted his own Doctrine. These be his words: 
Theophylact. in johan. Cap. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Qui manducat me, hic vivet propter me, dum Quodammodò miscetur mihi, & transelementatur in me: He that cateth me, shall live by me: for as much as, after a sort, he is mingled with me, and transelemented, or changed into me. If ye doubt, whether, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in Greek, may be expounded by, Quodammodò, then is not your skill herein so great, as ye have thought.  
Why find ye not fault with S. Augustine, for saying the like? Omnes in illo, & Christi, & Christus sumus: quia Quodammodò totus Christus, & Caput, & Corpus est: In him we are all Christ's, and Christ himself: For after a sort whole Christ is both the Head (of the Church) and also the Body. And again, Qui in Christum credit, 
Augu. in Psal. 26 August. in johan. Sermon. 61. August. Epist. 120. Cap. 18.  credendo in Christum veniet, & in cum Christus, & quoquo modo unitur in eum, & Membrum in Corpore eius efficitur: He that believeth in Christ, by believing cometh into Christ, and Christ into him, and after a sort is united into him, and is made a Member in his Body. And again, Paulum Christus voce mactavit, & in suum Corpus traijciens, Quodammodò manducavit: Christ killed Paul with his voice, 
cyril ad Calosyrium.  and after a sort, did eat him, swalowinge him down into his Body. Why find ye not the same fault with Cyrillus writing thus, Decebat ergo eum Quodammodò Vniri Corporibus nostris? It was meet, that after a sort Christ should be United unto our Bodies: 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 84.  Or with S. Chrysostom, writing the like: Christus nos secum in unam, ut ita dicam, Massam reducit? Christ mouldeth us. if I may so say, into one lump with himself.  
Why say ye not, these, and other like Holy Fathers were Sacramentaries, and Heretics? Why say ye not, that S. Augustine, S. Cyril, S. Chrysostom, with their Forged Quodammodò, corrupted the sound, and Catholic Doctrine of the Church?  
Would ye rather, for the better facinge, and colouring of your Doctrine, we should strike out this, Forged Quodammodò, and amend it thus, Qui manducat me, Reipsa Miscetur mihi, & transelementatur in me? Would ye have us to believe, that we are wholly, and thoroughly changed into Christ's Body, and that we are made very Christ, God, and Man, the same, that was borne of the Virgin, and nailed to the Cross: and that not, Quodammodò, after a sort. or by some peculiar phrase of speech: but Substantially, Really, Verily, and in deed? 
Quodammodò.  I reckon, your Doctrine is not fully so fond.  
S. Paul saith, 
Roma. 12. cyril. in johan. Lib. 11. Cap. 26. Chrysostom. in 1. Cor. Homil. ●  Sumus alter alterius Membra: We are Members one of an other: Cyrillus saith, Nos inter nos unimur Corporaliter: We are Corporally united together among ourselves: S. Chrysostom saith, Si quis exuat impudicarum mulierum animas, videbit malum Daemonem illis admixtum: If a man will open the Souls of unchaste, or Filthy Women, he shall see the Devil tempered together, and mingled with them. And think you, M. harding, that these, and other like speeches of the Holy Fathers, cannot stand without your Transubstantiation, and Real Presence? Or, that the Godly be Substantially, and in deed in their Bodies joined together? Or, that the ungodly be verily united, and mingled with the Devil?  
You might rather have remembered, that touching this unspeakable Unity between Christ, and the faithful, that is to say, between the Head, and the Body, 
Cyprian. De Coena Domini.  S. Cyprian writeth thus: Nostra, & Christi Coniunctio nec miscet Personas, nec unit Substantias: sed affectus consociat, & confoederat voluntates: The Conjunction, that is between us, and Christ, neither mingleth persons, nor uniteth Substances: but joineth affections, and knitteth wills. Likewise saith S. Cyril, 
cyril. in johan. Lib. 4. Cap. 29.  Initium, & fundamentum in Sanctificatione Christus est, Per Fidem, scilicet, & non aliter: Hoc enim modo in nobis habitat: The Beginning, and foundation of our Holiness is Christ: By Faith, I mean, and none otherwise. For in this sort Christ dwelleth in us. Likewise Lyra, one of your owns late Doctors: In quantum per Sacramentum Eucharistiae unimur Deo, 
Nicol. Lyra in johan. Cap. 6.  vivimus Spiritualiter: Nostra autem unio apud ipsum est per Fidem, & Dilectionem: So far forth, as we are united unto God by the Sacrament of Thankesgeevinge, we live Spiritually: But the Union, that is between him, and us, is by Faith, and love. And, expounding these words of S. Paul, 
Nicol. Lira, 1. Cor. 6  Qui adhaeret Deo, unus Spiritus est: He that eleventh unto God, is one Spirit with God: He saith, unus, non secundum rem, sed secundum affectionem: One Spirit with God, not One in deed, or according to the Truth: but One in Love, or according to affection.  
And yet, some what farther to remove you from your fantaste of your Real Presence, 
Chryso in Epist. ad Colos. Hom. 6.  S. Chrysostom saith, as he is alleged before: Dominum ipsum amplecteris: cum illo commisceris: & subvectus Coniungeris Corpori illi, quod sursum sedet in Coelis: Thou embracest the Lord himself: thou art tempered with him: and being carried up (by Faith, and affection) thou art joined with that Body, that fitteth in Heaven. 
Leo, De Ascensione Domini, Sermon. 3.  In like sense saith Leo: Christus ineffabili modi coepit esse Divinitate Praesentior, qui factus est Humanitate loginquior: Christ by unspeakable means began to be the near to us by his Divinity, the further he is made from us by his Humanity.  
I doubt not, M. Harding, but ye may easily see, that hitherto your Real Presence is but weakly proved.   

M. harding.  
Again we marvel with what face ye dare allege Theophylacte for you, 
Not a Figure, but the Flesh itself of our Lord, Transubstantiation.  who in most evident words overthroweth your figurative tropical, and energical Doctrine touching this blessed Sacrament. For he saith upon this sixth Chapter of S. john: Mark well that the Bread, which is eaten of us in the Mysteries, 
* Untruth. For he manifestly affirmeth a. Figure. His words be these, It is not only a Figure. Ergo he granteth, it is a Figure.  is not only a certain Figure of our lords Flesh, but the Flesh itself of our Lord. For he said not, the Bread that I shall give is the Figure of Flesh, but it is my Flesh. For the Bread is with secret words through the Mystical blessing and coming upon of the Holy Ghost, changed into the Flesh of our Lord.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Theophylacte saith, The Bread is not only a certain Figure of our lords Flesh, but the Flesh itself of our Lord. This Objection in my Former Reply is many where's answered. We grant, The Bread is not a bare, or a naked Figure: but by way of Sacrament, or Mystery, it is the Body of Christ itself. So the Water of Baptism, is not an empty Figure of the Blood of Christ: but it is Christ's Blood itself, because it is the Sacrament of Christ's Blood. 
Bernard. Super Missus est. Hom. 3 Augusti. Contra Maximi. Lib. 3.  And therefore S. bernard saith, Lavemur in Sanguine eius: Let us be washed, (not in Water, but) in the Blood of Christ. S. Augustine giveth this general Rule, as I have often reported, In Sacramentis videndum est, non quid sint, sed quid Significent: In Sacraments we must consider, not what they be (in substance, & nature) but what they Signify. Tertullian saith, Christus acceptum Panem, 
Tertull. Contra Martion. Lib. 4.  & Discipulis suis distributum Corpus suum illum Fecit, dicendo, Hoc est Corpus meum, hoc est, Figura Corporis mei: Christ having taken the Bread, and having delivered the same to his Disciples. Made it his Body, saying, This is my Body, That it to say, This is a Figure of my Body. And to appoint a corruptible Creature to this use, and to make it an effectual instrument of such high, and Hidden Mysteries, it is not the Work of any mortal man, but the only Power, and working of the Holy Ghost: as it shall farther appear in the next Clause, in mine answer to the words of S. Ambrose. beda saith thus, 
Beda in Octavis Epiphaniae.  Panis, & Vini Creatura in Sacramentum Carnis, & Sanguinis Christi ineffabili Spiritus sanctificatione transfertur: The Creature of Bread, and Wine by the unspeakable Sanctification of the Holy Ghost, is changed (not into the very Real Body, and Blood, but) into the Sacrament of the Body, and Blood of Christ.   

M. harding.  
Neither Maketh S. Ambrose, which also ye bring in, any better for you. Would God ye would admit him for Vmpeere in this point. Verily in the book, and chapter, that ye refer us unto, he disputeth as it were of purpose against you, as though he foresaw the time, when the Church should be troubled with the Heresy of Sacramentaries. Tu fortè dicis, etc. Perhaps thou sayest, 
De Sacr. Li. 4. Ca 4. De Pane. Consecration.  My Bread is common: But this Bread is Bread, before the words of the Sacraments: so soon as consecration cometh, of Bread is made the Flesh of Christ. Let us then avouch this, how that, which is Bread, may be the Body of Christ? By Consecration. Then with what words and speeches is consecration made? Even with those of our Lord jesus. For what so ever else is said (he meaneth at the Mass) it is praisegevinge to God, and praying for the People, for Kings, for the rest. When the Priest cometh to the Consecration of the honourable Sacrament, there he useth not his own words, but the Words of Christ. Therefore it is the word of Christ, that maketh the Sacrament. 
* God may well be Omnipotent, without either Transubstantiation, or Real Presence.  What word of Christ? soothly that same word whereby all things be made. Our Lord Commanded, and Heaven was made. Our Lord Commanded, and earth was made. Our Lord Commanded, and the seas were made. Our Lord Commanded, every Creature was engendered. Seest thou then, how woorkeful is the word of Christ? 
Operatorius These be the words alleged by the Defender.  Well then, if there be so great Power in the word of our Lord jesus, that things began to be, which were not: how much more is it woorkeful, 
‡ S. Ambrose saith, The Bread and Wine are the same things, they were before Consecration: notwithstanding they be now made a Sacrament.  Vt sint, quae erant, & in aliud commutentur, That things be which were, and be changed into an other thing? Here, Sir Defender, construe me these words, and what sense can you draw forth of them, but this: If by the working Power of our lords word, things have a being, which before were nothing, and had no being at all, as Heaven, Earth and Seas: how much more Power hath it to work, that things which were before, and had a being, now also be, or have a being, but be changed into an other thing, in Aliud, 
* Untrue exposition. That were contrary to S. Ambrose. For than were they not the same things, their were before.  into a thing of an other Substance? For by this phrase is signified a Substantial changing, 
Omnipotent Power.  which aptly is called Transubstantiation: And, I pray you, good Sir, 
The Elements after Consecration be, or have a being.  who saith, that the Elements. I mean Bread and Wine, pass quite away, and go to nothing? Though you so bely us, we say not so: God forbidden. We say, that after consecration they be: But what? 
* O fond folio. What Being have things, when the●e Substance is gonner.  Not theselsesame they were, whereby the Former Substance is excluded, but the Body and Blood of our Lord. Again in that we say with S. Ambrose, in aliud commutantur, They be changed into an other thing: followeth it not thereof good logic, Ergo they be? Will not this argument hold in School, the verb passive being resolved, 
‡ A 〈…〉 truth 〈…〉 modesty.  Sunt commutata, Ergo sunt? For that which ceaseth to be, or goeth to nothing, ye cannot properly say of it, that it is changed: but rather that it is ended, or perisheth. Now sir, I report me to every man, that hath any sense, whether I may not lawfully give you the Menti, as for manners sake I may use the Italian term, and challenge you in plain terms of a lie, for uttering this untruth, upon that Holy Doctors S. Ambrose. specially speaking as you do in your English Translation, by yourself allowed thus: For what can be said more plainly, then that, which Ambrose saith, Bread, and Wine remain still the same they were before, and yet are changed into an other thing? Zeal moveth me to say beyond the modesty of my natural disposition, What is juggling, what is lying. what is falsehood, what is falsefieinge, what is wickedness of falsaries, if this be not?  
Neither is the saying, wherewith this Defender belieth S. Ambrose, all only false, and contrary to the Catholic Faith, but also absurd, unreasonable, and foolish. For if Bread, and Wine remain still after Consecration, the same they were before, how then are they changed into an other thing?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, unless ye had made S. Ambrose a Prophet, ye thought, he could not so handsomely have served your turn. But what, and of whom he prophesied, and how far saw before, we shall see hereafter. Verily, if that he the Heresy, that you imagine, them he needed not greatly any Spirit of prophesy in that behalf. For he foretold us of no new Heresy, that was to come: but rather told us of his own Heresy, that then was present. doubtless, the words that we reprote, are not ours: they are this own.  
But S. Ambrose saith, The Omnipotent Power of the Word, wherewith God made Heaven and Earth, the same Omnipotent Power of the same word, he useth now in the Consecration of the Sacrament. Therefore, saith M. harding, it must needs be gathered, he meant Transubstantiation, and Real Presence: as if without these new fantasies, God could not be Omnipotent. I may well answer these men, as S. Ambrose upon the like occasion sommetime answered the wilful blindness of the jews: 
Ambros. De Noah & Arca.  Atramentum vident: Spiritum Dei non vident: They see the Ink (of the Letter written) but the Spirit of God they see not: Even so M. harding, and others of that side weigh the words of S. Ambrose: but his sense, and meaning they weigh not.  
Certainly God showeth his Omnipotent Power, as well in the Sacrament of Baptism, as in the Sacrament of thanksgiving. Here of I have said somewhat, as occasion was offered, in my Former Reply to M. Harding. Leo saith thus, 
Articulo. 5. Division. 4. Leo in Nativitate Domini, Sermon. 5. Chrysosto. in johan. Homil. 24.  Christus originem, quam sumpsit in Vtero Virgins, posuit in font Baptismatis. Dedit Aquae, quod dedit Matri: Christ laid in the font of Baptism the same beginning, that he took in the Virgin's Womb. He gave the same pre-eminence to the Water, that he gave to his Mother. Even so Chrysostom, Angeli qui adfuerunt (in Baptismo) tam inenarrabilis operis modum minime possunt enarrare. Adfuerunt tantùm, & viderunt: nihil tamen operati sunt: Sed Pater tantùm, & Filius, & Spiritus Sanctus. The Angels, that were present at the Baptism, are not h●ble to utter the manner of that unspeakable Work. They were Present only, and saw: but they did nothing: but only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  
Likewise he saith, 
Chrysost. in johan. Homil. 24.  Ex Spiritu, & sensibili Aqua omnia haec admirabilia, & humanam excedentia cogitationem, exoriuntur: All these wonderful works (wrought in Baptism) so far exceeding the thought of man, springe of the Spirit, and of Sensible Water.  
Thus the Holy Fathers used oftentimes to advance, and to magnify the Holy Mysteries, the better to bring their Hearers to the deep, and inward consideration of the same: 
August. Ad Bonifacium, Epist. 23  and therefore, as S. Augustine saith, Sacramenta tantae rei, non nisi eiusdem rei vocabulo nuncuparunt: They expressed the Sacramenta of so great a thing, none otherwise, then by the name of the same thing. So S. Paul saith, 
1. Cor. 10. Pachymer. in 4. Cap. Hierarch. S. Germanus. De Corpor. & Sangui. Christi Chrysostom. in Psalm. 50.  The Rock was Christ: So an other saith, as I have otherwheres alleged, The Oil is Christ: and an other, Manna erat Christus, qui descendit de Coelo: The Manna (that reigned in the Wilderness) was Christ, that came down from Heaven. So saith S. Chrysostom, reporting the story of David: Accipiens Aquam allatam bibere noluit: Sed semetipsum reprehendit, & Domino eam libavit. Non enim Aqua erat, sed Sanguis: David receiving of the Water, (that his men had gotten with great danger from the mids of their enemies) would not drink of it: But found fault with himself, and powered it out unto the Lord: For it was not Water, but Blood.  
I beseech thee, 
2. Reg. 23.  good Christian Reader, mark well these Words. The story is clear. It was in deed only a Cup of Water, and nothing else. Yet Chrysostom saith, It was Blood: It was no Water.  
In those days, it was no danger, thus to say. The people was instructed, and well acquainted with this phrase, or manner of speech, and knew the meaning. They were taught, that the Rock, the Oil, and the Manna in the Wilderness, were only Sacraments of Christ: and that, notwithstanding they were called by thy name of Christ, yet in deed, and in Substance they were not Christ.  
Therefore I may answer M. harding herein, as S. Augustine sommetime answered the Pelagian Heretics: 
August. Contra julianum, Lib. 1.  Vobis Pelagianis nondum litigantibus, securiùs loquebantur Patres de his Articulis: Before that you Pelagians began to quarrel, the Fathers, and Doctors spoke without fear, and freely of these Articles.  
Athanasius saith of the Arian Heretics, 
Athanasi. Contra Arian. Sermon. 4.  Incorporalia Corporaliter excipientes, quae probè dicta erant, interpretationibus depravauerunt: Taking Spiritual things in a Corporal, or fleshly meaning (as doth M. harding, and other his fellows) by their interpretations they have depraved the things, that were rightly spoken. S. Ambrose saith of the Breads, and the Wine, Sunt, quae erant, & in aliud mutantur: They remain the same, that they were, and are changed into an other thing. Now is the filled won: M. harding bloweth a Magne Triumph. Here, saith he, Sir Defender, Construe me these Words, soothly, good Reader, I distrust not greatly, but this poor Defender might easily Construe these Words, were he never so simple a clerk. The Natural Creatures of the Bread, and Wine in the Supper of our Lord (saith S. Ambrose) remain still in Substance, as they were before: yet are they changed into an other thing, that is to say, they are made the Sacrament of the Body, and Blood of Christ: which before they were not.  
notwithstanding this short Construction, being clear, and plain, may seem sufficient, yet for that M. harding so deeply apposeth us, and willeth us to Construe him these Words, we will both Construe, and Parson them too for his pleasure.  
Therefore, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 80.  to warrant our former Construction, S. Augustine saith thus: Accedat Verbum ad Elementum: & fit Sacramentum: Let the Word be added to the Element, 
Changed into an other thing.  or outward Creature: and it is made a Sacrament, that is to say, an other thing. Again he saith, Sacramenta sunt Signa rerum, Aliud existentia, Aliud Significantia: Sacraments are Signs, or Tokens of things, being by Substance One thing, 
August. Contra Maximi. Lib. 3. Cap. 2.  and signifying an other thing. So saith Chrysostom of the Water of Baptism, Cùm hoc Elementum acceperit Spiritum Sanctum, fit Sacramentum: Et iam non erit Aqua Potationis, sed Sanctificationis: Non erit Aqua communis, sed Refectionis: 
Chrysostom. in Psalm 22.  When this Creature of Water hath received the Holy Ghost, it is made a Sacrament: and now it is not Water to drink, but water to Sanctify: Not common Water, but Water to Refresh.  
Thus the Element, or outward Creature both remaineth, and is changed: It remaineth in proper, & plain kind of speech: It is changed unproperly, that is to say, by the way of a Sacrament, or a Mystery. So M. hardings own Gloze saith upon the Decrees: 
De Con. Dist 2. Hoc est. In Glosae.  Coeleste Sacramentum dicitur Corpus Christi, sed Impropriè. unde dicitur, Suo modo: Non rei veritate, sed significant Mysterio: ut sit sensus, Vocatur Corpus Christi, id est, Significat Corpus Christi: The Heavenly Sacrament is called the Body of Christ, but unproperly (that is to say, not in plain, and simple manner of speech). Therefore S. Augustine saith, It is so called after a sort: that is, not in truth of matter, but by a Mystery signifying: that the sense may be this, It is called the Body of Christ, that is to say, It signifieth the Body of Christ. 
August. De Doctrina Christia. Lib. 2. Cap. 1.  So saith S. Augustine, De Signis differens, hoc dico, Ne quis in eyes attendat, quòd sunt, sed potiùs, quòd Signa sunt, id est, quòd Significant: entreating of Signs (or Sacraments) thus I say: Let noman consider in them, that they be in Substance, but rather, that they be Signs, that is to say, that they Signify (some other thing). In this sense, & meaning S. Augustine saith again, Dominus ait, 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 4.  Ipse (johannes) est Elias: johannes autem ipse ait, Ego non sum Elias. Rectè ergo johannes propriè respondit: Nam Dominus Figuratè: Our Lord said of john the baptist: This is Elias: But john himself saith, I am not Elias. Therefore john answered well in plain manner of words: For our Lord spoke in a Figure. Thus in sundry sorts of speech, john is Elias: and the same john is not Elian: and both are true.  
But what better expositoure of S. Ambrose can we find, then S. Ambrose himself? I trust, M. harding will not say, that so Holy a Father was a falsifier, and a liar, specially in declaring his own mind. Thus therefore he saith: Ante Benedictionem Verborum Coelestium, 
Ambros. De ijs qui initiantur, Cap. 9  alia species nominatur: post Consecrationem, Corpus Christi Significatur. In comedendo, & potando, Carnem, & Sanguinem, quae pro nobis oblata sunt, Significamus. In Similitudinem accipis Sacramentum. Est Figura Corporis, 
Ambros. 1. Corinth. 11. Ambros. De Sacrament. Lib. 4. Cap. 4. & 5.  & Sanguinis Domini. Similitudinem pretiosi Sanguinis bibis: Before the Blessing of the Heavenly words, it is called an other Kind: After the words of Consecration, the Body of Christ is Signified. In eating, and Drinking, we Signify the Body, and Blood, that were offered for us. Thou receivest the Sacrament for a Similitude, or for a likeness. It is a Figure of the Body, and Blood of our Lord. Thou drinkest the likeness of the precious Blood.  
Thus like form of words the same S. Ambrose useth of the Sacrament of Baptism: 
Ambros. De Sacramen. Lib. 1. Cap. 5.  Vidisti Aquam? Sed non omnis Aqua sanat: Sed Aqua sanat, quae habet Gratiam Dei. Aliud est Elementum: Aliud Consecratio: Haste thou seen the Water? But of Water healeth not. But that Water healeth, that hath the Grace of God. The Element (or Creature of Water). One thing: and the Consecration is an other thing.  
Thus the Bread remaineth: and thus it is changed. It remaineth in Substance: but it is changed in Mystery.  
But M. harding heavily presseth these Words, Mutantur in Aliud: that is, saith he, 
Changed into an other thing.  into a thing of an other Substance. For by this phrase is signified a Substantial changing, which aptly is called Transubstantiation. I will not here use your courteous eloquence, M. harding: nor say unto you, as you say to others, I pray you, good Sir: but thus I say, I pray you, M. harding, who gave you this rule? who taught you this Lesson? De Coelo est, an ex Hominibus? Came it from Heaven, or is it of men? Have the Holy Fathers thus taught you, or is it only you own fantasy? What Grammar, What Logic, What Philosophy, What Divinity ever told you, that, Aliud, evermore signifieth a thing of an other Substance? If ye have an Author, why come you without him? If it be only of yourself, why should we believe you?  
If, Aliud, signify only a Substance, and nothing else, why doth S. Augustine say, 
August. Contra M●●imi. Lib. 3. Cap. 12.  as it is before alleged, Sacramenta sunt Signa terum, Aliud existentia, aliud Significantia? Why saith S. Augustine again, Aliud est Sacramentum, Aliud Virtus Sacramenti? Why saith S. Ambrose, Aliud est Elementum, Aliud Consecratio? 
August. in johan. Tracta. 26. Ambros. De Sacram. Lib. 1. ca 5.  For by your Divinity the Sacrament, the Form, the Consecration, be Accidents only, and may not be taken for the Substance. Verily for aught, that I can learn, Aliud, is nothing else, but Res alia, an other thing, whether it be the Substance, or the Accident. For, I think, ye have no● forgotten the Old rule, unumquodque in suo genere est quid.  
We say, The Nature, and Substance of the Bread, & Wine is not clearly changed, or consumed into Nothing, as many have dreamt in these later days. Here M. harding cometh roughly in, as his manner is, and saith, ye bely us: we say not so: God forebid. Thus he crieth out, before he be stricken. Solomon saith, 
Proverb. 28.  Impius fugit, nemine persequente: The guilty fleeth, before he be chased. For, notwithstanding there be multitudes of follies in his Doctrine, yet with this folly we charge him not. But whether any of his Fellows have so said, or no, 
4. Senten. Dist. 11. Quidam.  I report me to his Master, Peter Lombarde. His words be these, Quid ergo fit de Substantia Panis, & Vini? Illi dicunt, vel in praeiacentem materiam resolui, vel in nihilum redigi: What then becometh of the Substance of the Bread, and Wine? They say, either that it is resolved into the matter, that was before, or else, that it is consumed into nothing.  
Marry God forebid, saith M. harding. So coy, and careful he is, for his holy forms, and his kingdom of Accidents. He saith, The whole Substance of the Bread is clean abolished, not one part thereof remaining: yet may it not be turned into nothing. And, as if the matter were well worth somewhat, be assureth the same sadly with a great detestation, God forebid. Hereof something might be said, if it were any thing worth the hearing. But, good Reader, thou shalt lose nothing by the silence: For, I assure thee, verily it is worth nothing.  
Yet M. harding first giveth us his courteous menti: and afterward, in his familiar manner, chargeth us by plain terms with a lie: and suddenly crieth out, as he saith, beyond the modesty of his natural disposition, What is juggsinge: what is lying: what is falsehood: what is falsifying: what is wickedness of Falsaries, if this be not? I might say: O Sirs, Hold the man. Good Christian Reader, in all these Whattes, thou wilt happily think, there should be somewhat. Now be it, in deed it is but a pang of M. hardings Rhetoric: lest thou shouldest think, that having spent so many waste words, in the end he had said nothing.  
But, what is the matter, M. harding? What moveth you, to make this piteous outcry? For sooth because we say, The Bread, and Wine remain the same, they were before. But these be S. Ambroses' own words: they be not ours: we make them not: we change them not: but report them simply, as we find them. As they were written in Latin by the Author, these they are: (Panis, & Vinum) sunt, quae erant, 
Changed into an other thing.  & in aliud mutantur: The Bread and Wine are the same, that they were: and are changed into an other thing. Therefore, it appeareth, all these Exclamations, of what is lugglinge? what is lying? etc. pertain unto S. Ambrose the author hereof, and not unto us.  
Now, for so much as it hath pleased M. harding so earnestly to call us forth to construe him these words, I beseech thee, good Reader, mark well, what Constructions he, and his Fellows have imagined, & fancied upon the same. first of all Lanfrancus, the chiefest Champion of that side, thought it the wisest way, 
Lanfrancur De Eucharist.  utterly to deny these words, and to say, They were never written by S. Ambrose. For thus he stormeth against Berengarius: O mentem amentem: O hominem impudenter mentientem: O puniendam temeritatem: Ambrosium accire testem praesumis, quòd Panis, & Vinum Altaris, per Consecrationem non definant esse, quoderant, sed commutentur in aliud, quod non erant? Et quidem si de Sacramentis, seu de coeteris, de quibus Ambrosius scripsit, omnes revoluat Libros, quos Ecclesia in usu nunc habet, tale quid ab Ambrosio dictum, taliterque expositum, nusquam repetire valebit: O mad mind: O impudent Liar: O rashness worthy of punishment: Darest thou to allege S. Ambrose for a witness, that the Bread and Wine of the Altar leave not by Consecration, to be that they were before: but are changed into an other thing, that they were not? Now truly if he peruse all the Books, that S. Ambrose hath written, either of the Sacraments, or of other matters, I mean such Books, as the Church hath no we in use, he shall never find any thing so written by S. Ambrose, and so expounded.  
But M harding thought, he might not well thus do without empeachement of his modesty. For the very same words are to be found extant, & apparent in every Book. Therefore allowing the words, he thought it best to follow his Master Peter à Soto, and to delay, & qualify the same with some Construction.  
Thus therefore he saith, Sunt, quae erant, & in aliud mutantur: doth it not follow by good Logic, Mutata sunt, ergo sunt: They be changed: Ergo they be? In Louvain, perhaps: In other Universities, I doubt, whether it have hitherto been allowed, or no. For by this Logic, where as S. Jerome saith, Superbia mutata est in Humilitatem, 
Hieronym. in Matthae. Cap. 18.  M. harding may conclude, as he doth now, Superbia mutata est: Ergo est: Pride is changed into Humility: Ergo Pride is, 
Roman 1.  or remaineth still. And, whereas S. Paul saith, Commutaverunt Veritatem Dei in mendacium: By this Logic M. harding may say, Mutata est, Ergo est: The Truth of God is changed into a Lie: Ergo, It is God's Truth still notwithstanding.  
And to take further view of M. hardings Construction, thus he saith, Panis, & Vinum sunt, quae erant, id est, qualia erant: The Bread, and Wine be in Substance the same, that they were: that is to say, They be in qualities, or Accidents, as they were. They are changed, in Aliud, into an other thing: that is, Into an other Substance. They are Changed: that is, They are Transubstantiate. They be: that is: They be not: That they were: that is, that they were not. Thus Substance, is Accidens: Accidens, is Substance: Being, is not Being: Not Being, is Being: remaining, is not remaining: changing, is not changing: And the same thing, is not the same.  
With such pretty Constructions M. harding can teach us to expound the ancient Fathers. These be their keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Herewith there is nothing so cluse shut, but they can open it: There is nothing so open, but they can shut it. Here might I conclude with M. hardings own words, and rightly say, as he saith, what is jugglinge? what is lying? etc. But it shallbe best to leave his own eloquence, and modesty to himself.   

M. harding.  
The places of Gelasius, and Theodorite in appearance seem to make much for you, and more than any other Doctors. And though these two doctors were altogether of this opinion, that after Consecration the Substance of Bread and Wine remaineth, what reason is it, they only in so great a matter should prejudicate all other Holy and learned Fathers, and which is more, the general Counsels, and 
* Untruth. For this fantasy was never allowed through the whole Church of Christ: as it shall appear.  the whole Church of Christ? The Catholic Faith we find in them both within few lines after the words of this Defenders objection, first by Gelasius thus expressed: Sacramenta Corporis & Sanguinis Domìni in divinam transeunt, Spiritu Sancto perficiente, Substantiam: permanent tamen in suae proprietate Naturae; The Sacraments (saith he) of the Body and Blood of our Lord pass over into a Divine Substance by the working of the Holy Ghost. Yet remain they still in the propriety of their own Nature. By divine Substance he meaneth the pleas he of our Lord assumpted of the Word. 
The truth confessed by Theodorit' Dialog. 1.  Now saith Theodoritus, the Mystical tokens, be understanded to be the things, which they be made, and are believed, and adored, as being the things which they are believed to be. But every man knoweth they are believed to be made the Body and Blood of Christ, and therefore be duly adored and worshipped: so after the mind of Theodorite, they be the Body and Blood in deed, not Bread and Wine, as before Consecration.  
The Substance or Nature of Bread and Wine ceaseth not to be, saith Gelasius: (Whereas your interpreter addeth of his own head this word So) 
† Untruth. Without question it is so. For the words be, Non definite esse Substantia Panis.  we tell you and him, in Theodorite it us not so. Ergo it remaineth, say ye. We grant the Substance, or Nature of Bread and Wine remaineth after Consecration, so as Gelasius understandeth by the name of Substance, 
* A peevish untruth. It had been too great a folly.  which is nothing else but the very Nature (as commonly we speak of Nature) that is to say, 
Nature i● Gelasius, and Substance in Theodorite is taken for natural property. Dialog. 2. In Logi●s Cap. 23.  the natural properties of Bread and Wine: for so he expoundeth himself afterward, saying, Yet they remain in the propriety of their own Nature. They remain (likewise saith Theodorite) in their Former Substance, Figure, and Form, and be seen and felt as before.  
And there to may Damascenes definition of Substance pertain, who saith, that Substance is every that, what so ever by itself is being, and hath not being in an other. And therefore 
† Untruth manifest: Read the Answer.  sht be the Accidents have their being by themselves in this Sacrament, and be not stayed on any other thing: in this consideration, Substance of them may so be reported, as if themselves were Substance. Which 
* Substantial consisting of Accidents: O folly.  substantial consisting of the Accidents lacking a proper name, because it is the mighty and extraordinary hand of God, is also extaordinarily called of Gelasius, and Theodoritus by the name, which the thing had before, to wit, the Substance of Bread and Wine. And no marvel if they spoke not in 
† O exact folly. A heap of Untruths without sense.  most exact wise of this secret point of Doctrine (of forms and Accidents) at what time it was not as yet by the Church so clearly, and fully discussed: (as it was never pet until this day). But sithence of the Schoolmen (ignorant and Fantastical Sophisters) it hath been more distinctly named the existence of Accidents without their Subject, that is, without an other thing whereupon they might stay.  
Again whereas Bread and Wine by their nature do nourish, 
* Untruth. M. Harding by one dream expoundeth another.  this virtue also remaineth in the Accidents given to them by the Almighty Word of God, who changeth Creatures to their bettering, not to their impairing. This was the meaning of Gelasius, and The doritus, where they say, the Bread and Wine to remain in their Former Substance or Nature. Otherwise should they be contrary to themselves, as they, which also do acknowledge the nature of Bread and Wine to be changed into a more excellent Substance, by the workefull word of Christ.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
As for these two Fathers, Gelasius, and Theodoretus, notwithstanding M. harding would saeme to make small account of them, for that they be, as he saith, but only two, yet he rather catcheth hold in some dark, or doubtful word by them uttered, than he would seem utterly to give them over. Gelasius saith, The Sacraments pass over into a Divine Substance: If he had said, They pass over into a Divine Accident, it would somewhat better have shadowed these men's purpose. But other Divine Substance M. harding can imagine none, saving only Christ's Body Substantially, and Really contained under the forms of Bread and Wine. And this fantaste, notwithstanding Gelasius never knew it, must needs be allowed against, all, that Gelasius himself can say to the contrary.  
But if M. harding had better remembered the placing, and meaning of this word, Substantia, and, that as well Gelasius, as other learned Fathers use the same as Divines, and not as Natural Philosophers, he should easily have found his own error.  
It may please thee therefore, good Christian Reader, to understand, That the Promise of Mercy, The Grace of God, Our Faith in Christ, God's Word, & the Holy Sacraments, that are the aides, and helps of our Faith, are of the Holy ancient Writers called a Substance. 
Cyprian. De Simplicit. Praelatorum.  So S. Cyprian saith, Substantiam Salutis amittunt: They lose the Substance of Salvation. So saith Irenaeus, Quamuis sint in Operibus materialibus, tamen putant se non amittere Spiritualem Substantiam: Although they live in worldly, 
Irenae. lia. ca 1. In eodem Cap. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Chrysostom. in Epist. ad Hebrae. Homil. 21.  or filthy works, yet weigh think, they lose not the Spiritual Substance. Likewise again he saith of the follies, and Vanities of the Valentinian Heretics, Insubstantiwm ostendit figmentum ipsorum: He showed, that their Inventions, and devices were void of Substance. So S. Chrysostom, Fides dat Substantiam rebus: Imò potiùs non dat Substantiam, sed ipsa est Substantia earum: Faith giveth things their Substance: Or rather it giveth not Substance unto things, but itself is their Substance. In like manner saith Tertullian, Deus Idololatriae Substantiam cohibuit: 
Tertull. Aduersus Martion. Lib. 2.  God forebade thee Substance of Idolatry. So saith Abbate Panormitane, Continentia non est de Substantia Ordinis: Single, or lose life is not of the Substance of Holy Orders. And an other saith, 
Abbas Extrae. De Clericis Coniugatis. Cum Olim. Pupilla Oculi. Pag. 14.  Enim, non est de Substantia Consecrationis: This word, Enim, is not of the Substance of Consecration. By these, and other like examples, it may appear, that in cases of Religion, substance is not evermore taken for Christ's Body covered with Accidents.  
If all these examples will not yet suffice, to grow near to our purpose, S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. De Elia, & jeiunio. Cap. 3.  Quid est jeiunium, nisi Substantia, & Imago Coelestis? What is fasting, but a Substance, and an Image of Heaven?  
Likewise Tertullian calleth Baptism, Divinam Substantiam, A Divine Substance. His words be these: 
Tertull. De Baptismo. This is one of tertullian's errors.  Quid festinat innocens aetas ad Remissionem Peccatorum? Cautiùs agitur in saecularibus: Vt cui Substantia terrena non creditur, Divina credatur? Why hasteth this innocent age (he meaneth Children) to the Remission of their Sins? We are much more wary in worldly things. Is it meet, we should commit the Sacrament of Baptism, which is a Divine Substance, unto them, unto whom we would not commit the Substance of the Earth?  
By these we may see, in what sense Gelasius calleth the Sacrament of thanksgiving, A Divine Substance. Verily none otherwise, but even as S. Ambrose calleth fasting, A heavenly Substance. And as Tertullian calleth the Sacrament of Baptism, by the same words, A Divine Substance. And what can all this avail M. harding, to prove, either his Transubstantiation, or his Real Presence?  
But why dealeth he so doubly? Wherefore dissembleth he the words of Gelasius, that immediately in the same sentence went before? For Gelasius himself so clearly, and plainly expoundeth his own mind, as no Lovanian Doctor can do it better. 
Getasius contra Eutychetem.  Thus he saith, Non desinit esse Substantia Panis, vel Natura Vini. Et certè Imago. & similitudo Corporis, & Sanguinis Christi in Actione Mysteriorum celebratur: There leaveth not to be the Substance of Bread, or the Nature of Wine. And in deed the Image, or Representation, and likeness of the Body, and Blood of Christ is published in the Ministration of the Mysteries. And again in the words next immediately following, Sacramenta transeunt in Divinam, Spiritu Sancto perficiente, Substantiam: permanent tamen in suae proprietate Naturae: The Sacraments, by the working of the Holy Ghost, pass into a Divine Substance: yet notwithstanding, they remain still in the property of their own Nature.  
This Image, or Representation, or Likeness, or Memory of the Body, and Blood of Christ is it, that Gelasius calleth the Divine Substance.  
And in like sense S. Augustine calleth the same, Coelestem Panem: The Heavenly Bread. Thus he writeth, as he is alleged by Gratian: Coelestis Panis, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Hoc est. quod dici●us.  qui Caro Christi est, suo modo vocatur Corpus Christi: cùm revera sit Sacramentum Corporis Christi: 
Cyprian. De unctione Chrismatis.  The Heavenly Bread (of the Sacrament) which is the Flesh of Christ, after his sort is called the Body of Christ: whereas in deed it is the Sacrament of Christ's Body. Likewise saith S. Cyprian, Diversa Nomina, vel Species ad unam reducuntur Essentiam: & Significantia, & Significata eisdem vocabulis censentur: diverse names, or kinds (of things) are brought unto one Substance: That is to say, The things, that do Signify, and the things, that be Signified, are reckoned both by one name: That is, as y Body of Christ is called Bread: so is the Bread called Christ's Body.  
To be short, as Gelasius calleth the Sacrament, A Divine Substance, even so Gratian saith to the same purpose, Quidam non improbabiliter exponunt hoc loco, Carnis, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Species.  & Sanguinis Veritatem, ipsam earundem efficientiam, id est, peccatorum Remissionem: some there be, that in this place, not without good reason, by these words, The Truth of Christ's Flesh, and Blood, understand the Effect, or woorkinge of the same, that is to say, The Remission of Sins.  
For answer unto Theodoretus, it may please thee, for sparing of time, to read my Former Reply to M. harding. 
Arti. S. Diul. 26. Et Articul. 10 Diuis. 4.  It is true, that Theodorete saith, The Mystical Tokens, that is to say, the Sacraments, be understood to be the things, which they be made, and be believed: That is, That they be Mysteries of Christ's Body: or that in a Mystery, or by way of a Sacrament, they be the Body of Christ. But it is true also, that he saith, both immediately following in the same place, and also before: Signa Mystica post Sanctificationem non recedunt à Natura sua: 
Theodoret. in 2. Dialogo, Inconfusus. August contra Maximin. Lib. 3. Cap. 22.  Manent enim in Priori Substantia, & Figura, & Forma: The Mystical Tokens (or Sacraments) after the Consecration depart not from their own Nature. For they remain still in their Former Substance, and Form, and Figure. And, as I have often alleged orte of S. Augustine, In Sacramentis videndum est, non quid sint, sed quid Significent: In Sacraments we must consider, not what they be (in deed, and of their own Nature) but what they Signify. So saith S. Chrysostom, Antequàm Panis Sanctificetur, Panem eum nominamus: 
Chrysostom. Ad Caesarium.  Divina autem illum Gratia sanctificante, mediant Sacerdote, liberatus est quidem ab appellatione Panis: Dignus autem habitus est Dominici Corporis appellatione: Etiamsi Natura Panis in illo remanserit: Before the Bread be Sanctified, we call it Bread. But after that by the mean of the Priest the Heavenly Grace hath hallowed it, it is discharged from the name of Bread, and is vouchsafed to be called by the name of our lords Body: notwithstanding the Nature of the Bread remain still. So saith Theodorete himself, Seruator noster commutavit nomina: & Corpori quidem Symboli nomen dedit, 
Theodoret, Dialo. 1.  Symbolo verò nomen Corporis: Our savour hath made exchange of the names: And unto his Body hath given the name of (Bread, which is) the Sacrament: and unto the Sacrament hath given the name of his Body.  
Nevertheless, notwithstanding these words both of Theodoretus, and of Gelasius, (The Substance of Bread, and Wine, after the words of Consecration remaineth still) be so plain, 
Nature: Virtue.  that noman without blushing may deny them, Yet hath M. harding one good shift least in store. The Substance, saith be, sometimes is used for the Accident: even as discreetly, and to so good purpose, as if he had said, Fire is Water, or, Light is Darkness. And so by this Construction, Substance sometimes is no Substance. This is M. hardings own peculiar Divinity, without the witness of any of all the Learned Fathers, Greek, or Latin, one, or other. For, good Reader, thou mayst not think, that any man, either well advised, or learned, would say the like.  
The Fathers, saith he, spoke not hereof in most exact wise. Perhaps they had not Learned their Logic Rules, or understood not the Principles of Natural reason, no not so much, as a child may easily understand: but used Substance for Accidents: Accidents for Substance: and one thing for an other: as men that knew not, what they said. In deed, M. harding, this is not, as you say, Exact wise: It seemeth rather to be, Exact folly.  
Ye add further, Damascene saith, Substance is every that, what so ever by itself is being, and hath no being in an other. What needed you here to allege Damascene? Children know, that Aristotle, and others long before him wrote the like. notwithstanding to this Mayor ye set a Minor of your own. These Accidents, say you, have their being by themselves: and be not staid in any other thing. O, M. harding, this thing would have had some better proof. Why allege you not, either S. Augustine, or S. Ambrose, or S. Chrysostom, or S. Jerome, or some other Catholic Father to this purpose? Your simple word is no good warrant. Ye prove that thing, that is universally confessed, and needed no proof: but that ye should prove, ye leave unproved. This in Sophistry is called Petitio Principij. The simplest shift, that can be used.  
Damascenes Mayor is Confessed, and true. But your Minor, and Conclusion, are both Untrue. For whereas you say of yourself: The Accidents have their Being by themselves: we say, the same Accidents have their Being in the Bread, and Wine, as in their Subjects. Sundry of your own fellows have said, 
De Con. dis. 2. Species. In gloss.  Accidentia illa sunt in Aere, tanquam in Subiecto: These Accidents are in the Air, as in their Subject. Therefore by their judgement, they have not their Being, as you say, by themselves. You may also remember, that your Master himself never durst precisely to determine this matter: but only passeth it over darkly, and doubtfully, as being not well resolved, what to say. His words be these: Mihi videtur fatendum, Accidentia illa existere sine Subiecto: It seemeth unto me, 
4. Senten. dis. 22 Si autem.  or, es I can guess, these Accidents have their Being without a Subject.   

M. harding.  
We must 〈◊〉 behold, saith Euthymius, a Greek Doctor, the Nature of the things, which be set before us: 
* What is the Virtue, and Power of your Accidents.  but the virtue, or power of them.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Euthymius, although one of the meanest Doctors, saith right well, and as the Learned Fathers said before him. But, M. harding, do you take your Authors at all adventures, as they come to hand: or do you consider, what they saie● Tell us. I beseech you in your fantasy, what are those things that Euthymius saith, are set before us? Whether are they the Body, and Blood of Christ, or clarour Accidents? If it be Christ's very Body and Blood substantially, Really, & in deed, Why should we not consider the Nature of them? what have they offended you? 
cyril. in johan. Lib. 4. Cap. 12.  Or what imperfection find you in them? Cyrillus saith, Caro Christi Natura vivifica est: The Flesh of Christ by Nature hath power to give Life. 
Came not to destroy  And Christ himself saith, My Flesh is Verily Meat: and My Blood is Verily Drink. Therefore the Nature hereof is well worthy to be considered. But if there be nothing there set forth, but only your bare, and naked Accidents, What Power, What Virtue is there in them? What doctor, or Father ever taught us, that we should have Remission of Sin, and be saved by your Accidents?  
But, as I said, Euthymius writeth well, following herein the Doctrine of the Ancient Learned Fathers. 
Basilius De Spiritu Sancto. Cap. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  S. Basile saith, Si qua Gratia est in Aqua, ea non est ex Natura Aquae, sed ex praesentia Spiritus: If there be any Grace in the Water, (of Baptism) it is not of the Nature of the Water, but of the presence of the Spirit. Cyprian speaking of the Oil, saith thus: Sanctificatis Elementis iam non propria Natura praebet effectum: Sed Virtus Divina potentiùs operatur: It is not Nature, that giveth effect, or force unto the Elements being Sanctified: but the Divine Power worketh more mightily. 
Cyprian. De Unction. Chrismatis.  So saith S. Chrysostom. Petra erat Christus: Non enian ipsius Petrae Natura Aqua scatutiebat: Sed alia quaedam Spiritualis Petra omnia operata est, hoc est. Christus: The Rock was Christ. For it was not by the Nature of the Rock, 
Chrysost. 1. Cori. Homil. 18.  that the Water gushed out: but a certain other Spiritual Rock wrought all these things, that is to say, Christ. In like manner the ancient Father Origen speaking of the Power, 
Origen in Matt. Cap. 15.  and Virtue of Our lords Supper saith thus, Illud, quod Sanctificatur per Verbum Dei, & per Obsecrationem, non suapte Natura sanctificat utentem: The thing, that is Sanctified by the Word of God, and by Prayer, sanctifieth not him, that useth it, by the Nature of itself. By these, and other like advertisements, these Godly Fathers meant to withdraw Our minds from the outward corruptible Creatures, to the Spiritual, and Inward understanding of the Sacraments. Therefore Euthymius in the same place saith, Panis habet Similitudinem quandam ad Corpus, 
Euthymius in Math. Cap. 64.  & Vinum ad Sanguinem: The Bread hath a certain Likeness unto the Body, and the Wine a certain Likeness unto the Blood.   

M. harding.  
When it pleased our Saviour Christ at his last Supper to institute this blessed Sacrament, at which he took Bread and Wine, 
The Doctrine of transubstantiation. Li. 83. quae.  and turned them into his Body and Blood, he would in such wise advance these Creatures to a much excellenter condition, as they should lose no whit of their former Virtues 
* Untruth, fon le and Childish. As though Christ had died to save Accidents.  For the son of man came not to destroy, but to save: and, as S. Augustine saith, is not cause that any thing tend unto not being.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
At the last M. harding hath found some Scripture: and that, God wot, full aptly he applteth to serve his purpose. The Son of Man, saith be, came not to destroy, but to save: Ergo, The Bread, and Wine lose no white of their Former Virtues. 
Luke 9   
Here, I beseech you, M. harding, what came the Son of Man to save? Must we believe, be came from Heaven, to Save your Accidents? Was this the cause of Chrictes coming? It this the Religion ye have Learned in Louvain? S. 
1. Corin. 6.  Paul saith, Nenquid de bubus cura est Deo? Hath God any special care for Oxen? Might not one much better say, Hath God any care for your forms, for your Shows, for your empty Accidents?  
Perhaps ye will say, I press you over heavily. Ye meant, that Christ came to Save Bread, and Wine. How be it, so ye cannot say: For by your Doctrine the Nature, and Substance of the Bread, and the Wine, by the coming, and presence of Christ, are quite abolished, nothing remaining, but only the Accidents. But be it, that Christ came, to Save these Creatures, Then is your Religion much like unto the Divinity of the Old Heretics called the Manichees. 
Change in Accidents. Augustin. ad Quoduustdeum.  Of them S. Augustine writeth thus: Herbas, atque arbores sic putant vivere, ut ea & sentire credant, & dolere, cùm laeduntur: nec aliquid inde sine cruciatu corum quenquam posse vellere: They think, that Herbs, and Trees have life, so for forth, that they believe, they have sense, and feeling, and suffer gnefe and pain, when they be hurt: 
Ibidem.  and that noman can pull, or pluck aught from them without their smart: And again he saith, Nec ova sumunt, quasi & ipsa, cùm frangunturt, expirent: They Eat no Bgges, imagining, that, when they be broken, their life, or Soul passeth from them.  
These be mere follies, M. harding. Christ himself saith, He came to save, not your Accidents, but Sinners: not Bread, and Wine, but the thing, that was lost. And will ye tell us, that your Accidents were lost? Or that Bread, and Wine were such sinful Creatures?  
O, M. harding, have more reverence to God's Word. It is Holy: It is it, whereby you shallbe judged. Have better regard henceforth, to that ye writ. Christ himself saith, Filius Hominis non venit, 
Luke. ●  ut perdat Animas Hominum, sed ut server: The Son of Man came not to destroy the Souls of men, but to Save them. Here in favour of your Accidents, ye have left out the Souls of men, which was the knot of the whole. And so there must needs appear in you, either gross ignorance, or wilful corruption.   

M. harding.  
seeing then there is a change by all consent, 
‡ Untruth, evident, and sensible Read the Answer.  and certain it is that the change is not in the Accidents, because we see them remain as they were before, 
Change in Substance.  and God deceiveth not our lenses in their true and proper object, which is colour, taste, smell, etc. It musts needs be, that the change be in substance, 
* Untruth, trifinge, and Sophistical. For Substance is perceived by the senses, although by mean of the Accidents.  which is to sense incomprehensible.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
There is a change in the Bread, saith M. Harding: But not in the Accidents thereof: Ergo, in the Substance. In like order of reason he might have said, It is not a Fearnbushe, Ergo, it is a Fox. Ye may not look, M. harding, to steal thus away with so simple Sophisms. This poor shift among Children is called Petitio Principij.  
Your Minor, wherein standeth the whole doubt, and which by some Authority, or show of reason, one way, or other, ye should have proved true, ye have passed it steily over without any manner of prouse at all, and presume it only to be true. And so the whole weight hereof standeth not by Truth, or Reason: but hangeth only by presumption.  
For what doctor, or Father ever told you, or made you so certain, that in the Bread there is no change touching the Accidents? Ye say, your senses tell you, that the Accidents remain still, as they were before. And the same senses also tell you, as S. Augustine saith, that the Substance of the Bread remaineth still, 
Ad Infants: Quod vide●is Panis est: quod etiam oculi renuntiant. Chrysost. in Mas. Homi. 83.  as it was before. But will you so suddenly forsake your old Lesson? Will you now put this matter in Compromisse to your senses? How often, and how sadly have you told us, that these be cases of Only Faith, and that in the judgement hereof, both Sense, and Reason must be abandoned? And have you forgotten that Chrysostom saith, Nihil sensibile traditum nobis est à Christo Quaecùnque Christus tradidit, insensibilia sunt: There is no sensible thing delivered unto us by Christ (in these Mysteries). And again, What so ever things Christ hath geeven us, they are unsensible. If they be things utterly unsensible, how then can they be judged by your senses? Why come ye not forth with the Learned Doctors, and Catholic Fathers, of whom, ye say, ye have such plenty. If it be true, as you say, 
Change in Accidents.  that there is no change in Accident, why is it not proved? If it be ralse, why is it avouched? Tell us, how long shall we be bound to your bare word?  
Verily, S. Augustine would have told you, that this change is in Accident, 
Augustin ad Bonifacium Epist. 23.  and not in Substance. For thus he saith, as it hath been often remembered, Nisi Sacramenta Similitudinem quandam haberent earum rerum, quarum Sacramenta sunt, Omninò Sacramenta non essent. Ex hac autem Similitudine plaerunque rerunt ipsaeum nomina accipiunt: unless Sacraments had certain likeness of the things, of which they be Sacraments, then in deed they were no Sacraments. And of this likeness oftentimes they bear the names of the things themselves. 
In eadem Episin.  Again he saith, Secundum quendam modum Sacramentura Corporis Christi Corpus Christi est: The Sacrament of Christ's Body after a certain manner is Christ's Body. 
Augustin contra Adimantum Cap. 12.  And again, Non dubitavit Dominus dicere, Hoc est Corpus meum, cùm daret Signum Corporis sui: Our Lord doubted not to say, This is my Body, when he give a token of his Body. Likewise saith Tertullian, expounding, & opening the meaning of Christ's words. Hoc est Corpus meum, Hoc est, Figura Corporis mei: This is my Body, that is to say, 
Tertull. contra Marcionem li. 4.  This is a Figure of my Body. You know, M. harding, that Modus, Simile, Dissimile, Signum, and Figura, be in the Predicament of Quality: and therefore pertain to Accident, and not to Substance.  
So Chrysosstome. where as he amplifieth the Change of the Bread in the Sacrament of thanksgiving, he addeth inmediately withal, Sic etiam in Baptismo: 
Chrysot. in Mat. Homi. 13. Ambros. De Sacrament, Li. 4. Cap. 4.  Even so is it, that is to say, The like change there is in the Water of Baptism, In these Mutations the Substance remaineth still: But the Respect, or Quality, or Accident is changed. And this is it, that S. Ambrose said before, Sunt, quae erant: & in aliud mutantur (In Substance) they are the same, they were before: But (in Accident, or Quality) they are turned into an other thing.   

M. harding.  
And here we put you in mind of your falsefieinge of Theodorites words, 
Theodrite falsefied by the Defender.  in that ye make him to say in your English, The Mystical Signs to remain in their former Substance, Form and Kind, where he saith 
* Untruth. Even so he faith. Otherwise M. harding hath a Substance without Kind.  not so, but in their former Substance, Figure and Shape. Ye know pardy, there is great difference between the Kind of a thing, and his Shape. The oftener ye use that falsebed, as ye use it very often, the more shall ye be espied to be false teachers, and grow out of credit, where truth is loved.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If there be any falsehood, or fault herein, by your own Confession, it is the Interpreters, and not the Authors. You know well, Our contention is not of the Shape of Bread, but of the Substance. Theodoretus saith, The Bread departeth not from his own Nature, but remaineth still in the former Substance, Figure, and Form: Sat you, as Theodoretus saith: Confess plainly, as he doth, that the Substance of the Bread remaineth still, and, with good leave, take the Shape unto yourself.  
And yet I see no great cause, why ye should so mightily cry out, False Teachers, Falsehood, falsifying, for that the Interpreter hath expounded this Latin word, Forma, by this English word, Kind, For, as it is proved before by sundry examples more at large, 
●efore, in the second Part. I. ca 1. Division. Athana. De Definitionib.  in the ancient Fathers these two words, Forma, and Natura, are often used for one thing. Athanasius saith, Natura, Essentia, Genus. Forma. unum sunt: Nature. substance, Kind, and Form be all one. Certainly, if the very Substance of the Bread should remain, as Theodoretus saith, and yet the Kind of the Bread should not remain, it were awo●nder. For, as there is no Kind without Substance, So is there no Substance without Kind.   

M. harding.  
The words which ye recite out of S. Augustine's Sermon Ad Infants, we find in Bedeupon the tenth Chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinthians. The whole place is this: This thing which ye see in the Altar of God, ye have seen it also in the night paste. But what it was, what it meaneth, the Sacrament of how great a thing it containeth, 
Answer to the place alleged out of S. Augustine.  as yet ye have not heard. That than which ye saw, is Bread and Chalice, which even your eyes tell you. But that which your Faith requireth to be instructed of, Bread is the Body of Christ, the Chalice his Blood. If the Substance of Bread remained, as before Consecration, what need had they to learn, what it were? For of themselves, they might know we the things proponed to be Bread, and Wine. But S. Augustine, ye say, calleth that they saw Bread, and Wine. Yea Sir, so it was, so far as their eyes told them. But what their faith ought to tell them, he instructeth them, saying: Bread to wit, is the Holy Body of Christ. To this Construction must we stand, by S. Augustine himself so set forth.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
S. Augustine's words are plain enough: how so ever it like you to shaowe them with your Gloss. Thus he saith, Quod vidistis, Panis est, & Calix: quod vobis etiam Oculi vestri renuntiant: The thing, that you saw, is the Bread, and the Cup: which thing your eyes do report unto you. Where also may be noted, as by the way, that S. Augustine, contrary to your Doctrine, M. harding, referreth the judgement hereof to the report, and trial of the senses. And again he saith of himself in the like case, Vereor, ne ipsis sensibus nostris facere videamur iniuriam, 
Augustin. ad Dardanum, Epist. 57  quando id loquendo suademus, ubi omnes Vires, officiumque Sermonis facillimè superat evidentia Veritatis: I fear me, we should do wrong unto our Senses, if we would go about to prove that thing by speaking, wherein the evidence of the Truth itself passeth all duty, and power of Speech.  
How be it, S. Augustine saith further, Quod autem Fides vestra postulat instruenda, Panis est Corpus Christi, Calix Sanguis: This Objection may be answered by that is said before. These two sayings are both true. Hesychius saith, 
Hesythius in Levi. li. 12. ca 8.  Mysterium nostrum simul & Panis, & Caro est: Our Mystery is both Bread, and Flesh. It is Bread in Substance, & in deed: It is also the Body of Christ, not in Substance, but in a Mystery. Your own Gloze saith, as it is before alleged: Dicitur Corpus Christi, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Hoc est quod. In Gloss.  sed impropriè: Vt sit sensus, Vocatur Corpus Christi, id est, Significat Corpus Christi: It is called the Body of Christ: but unproperly, or, not in dough and usual form of speech: The meaning thereof may be this: It is called Christ's Body, that is to say, It signifieth Christ's Body.  
In a Sacrament we must behold, not only the outward Element, but also the thing itself, whereof it is a Sacrament. S. Augustine saith, Si ad ipsas res visibiles, 
Augustin. De Baptismo contra Donatis. Li. 3. Cap. 10.  quibus Sacramenta tractantur, animum conferamus, quis nesciat, eas esse corruptibiles? Si autem ad id, quod per illas res agitur, quis non videat, non posse corrumpi? If we consider the visible Creatures, wherein the Sacraments are ministered, who knoweth not, they be things corruptible? But if we consider the thing, that is wrought thereby, who seeth not, It cannot be corrupted?  
And in the same place before alleged, S. Augustine fully expoundeth his own meaning, in what sense the Bread may be called the Body of Christ. These be his words: 
Augustin. in Sermone ad Infants.  Christus levauit Corpus suum in Coelum, unde venturus est, ut judicet vivos, & mortuos. Ibi est modò sedens ad Dextram Patris. Quomodò est Panis Corpus eius? Et Calix, vel, quod habet Calix, quomodò est Sanguis eius? Ista, Fratres, ideò dicuntur Sacramenta, quia in eyes aliud videtur, aliud intelligitur: Christ hath lifted up his Body into Heaven: from whence he shall come to judge the quick, and the dead. There is he now sitting at the Right Hand of the Father. How then is the Bread his Body? And the Cup, or that is in the Cup, how is it his Blood? His answer is this: O my Brethren, these be called Sacraments, for that in them one thing is seen, and an other thing is understanded.  
Thus therefore, the thing, that we see with our Bodily eyes, is the very Nature, and Substance of Bread: but the thing, that we see with our Faith, is the very Natural Body of Christ sitting in Heaven, and represented unto us in the Mysteries.  
Now, I beseech thee, good Christian Reader, mark, what Discante M. harding playeth upon these words. S. Augustine saith, Believe the judgement of your eyes: M. harding saith, Senses be deceitful: Believe not the judgement of your eyes. S. Augustine saith, The thing, that you see is Bread: M. harding saith, It is not so: it is no Bread. So handsomely this Gloze groweth to the Text.    

The Apology.  
Or, that, which Origen saith, The Bread, which is Sanctified by the Word of GOD, as touching the Material Substance thereof, goeth into the Belly, and is cast out into the privy.  

M. harding.  
In alleging Origen, Sir Defender, ye play your accustomed false play, 
* Untruth. For we have Corrupted, nor word, nor Sentence. To that Material: A proper translation.  corrupting his sentence, and falsifying his words. For they be not as you recite them, but thus: Ille cibus, qui sanctificatur per Verbum Dei, 
origen's words examined. Origen falsefied by the Defender.  pèrque obsecrationem, juxta id quod habet materiale, in ventrem abit, & in secessum eijcitur: That meat, which is Consecrated by the Word of God, and by Prayer, according to that Material, which it hath, it goeth into the belly, and is voided forth into the Privy. Here neither nameth he 
‡ Untruth. For he nameth it Bread seven times in that one place.  Bread, as you do (to cause the people to think, it is but very Bread) but meat. And that you have in your Latin▪ Quod quidem ad Materiam attinet: which is by your Interpreter, As touching the Material Substance thereof, 
* Untruth, O●lesse ye will rather call it the Material Accident.  it is not origen's, but your own forged stuff, to deceive the ignorant withal, to th'end they might be moved by your false handling of that Doctor, to believe, the matter and Substance of very Bread to remain. He speaketh not of the 
‡ Untruth: For in the same place he saith, Nec Materia Panis.  matter of Bread, but of that which is Material in this Sacrament, meaning the Accidents or Qualities remaining after Consecration, which be Material, but not the matter itself of Bread (as Mater is taken for the one part of a perfect Substance) 
* Untruth, shameless, and without sense: For what Accidents he voided forth.  and the same Accidents be voided forth, as Origen had good cause by occasion of Christ's word to declare, you had none to record the same. But it liked your filthy spirit with vile words to bring that Holy Mystery, and Blessed Sacrament into contempt. Wherein ye do the Devil Author of all Heresies the greatest service, that may be devised.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Heresies, false play, Falsehood, falsifying, Vile words, Filthy Spirits, are now become M. hardings ordinary, and usual Eloquence. Here have we corrupted, as he saith, and belied Origen, for that we place this word. Panis, in steed of Cibus: And, for that we say, Panis, quod ad Materiam attinet, in steed of these words, Cibus juxta id, quod habet materiale. This is Forges stuff: This is Homble, and shameful corruption, to deceive the ignorant. He that know not M. hardings modesty, and manner of writing, would think these Tragical terms should bear some weight. For sober men seldom use thus to cry, without some cause. touching these words, Cibus, Panis, Materiale, Materia, if there be any thing, that may mislike him, it shallbe lawful for him to reform the same, 
Cibus, panis, Materiale, Materia.  & to use either the one word, or the other, at his pleasure. We stand only upon the Substance of matter, and seek no such wanton advantages by shift of words.  
Nevertheless, Origen himself, as it appeareth, was not so dangerous in the case. For, whereas M. harding so sharply overlooketh us, for once using this word Panis, in steed of Cibus, Origen himself useth the same word, Panis, 
1. Corin. 11. Cyril. in johan. Lib. 10. Cap. 13  Seven times together in the self same place, without reproof: Like as S. Paul also five times in one place calleth it, Panis: And S. Cyril calleth the portions thereof, fragmenta Panis: pieces of Bread. And yet were none of these ever condemned therefore, as Corrupters, and Falsifiers.  
But I beseech you, M. harding, if this word, Cibus, Meat, which Origen useth, and you seem to allow, were not Bread, what kind of Meat than will you call it? 
Irenae. Li. 5. Augetur, & Consistit Carnis nostrae Substantia. Rabanus Maurus. Li. 1. Cap. 31.  Pleashe, Fish, or Fruit, I trow, it was not. You safe, Origen meant thereby your forms, and Accidents, and Shows of Bread. Now verily, this was but a quaisy Meat: and I marvel, that ever any wise man would call it Meat. Irenaeus saith, Of the same Meat is increased, and consisteth the Substance, of Our Flesh. And Rabanus saith, Sacramentum in alimentum Corporis redigitur: The Sacrament (which is the Bread) is turned into Our Bodily nourishment.  
touching the other fowl fault, M. harding saith, his Accidents, and Qualities be things Material: but the Mater itself, he saith, they be not. But where learned he this strange Doctrine? What Divine, what Philosopher, what Logician, what Sophister, what wise man ever taught him thus to say? Certainly Accidents, and Qualities be Accidentales Formae, and in the Schools are called things Formal: which are as far from things Material, as Fire from Water. Notwithstanding, these men have power to make of Accidents, Substance: Of forms, Matters: Of things Formal, things Material: and of one contrary, to make another: all this only of themselves, without any manner other Authority.  
M. harding saith, that the Meat, whereof Origen speaketh, is a Material, (for this is the Light, and clearness of his Eloquence) but not Materia: and by this pretty distinction he thinketh, the whole matter is fully discharged. And emongste the ignorant, that cannot judge, perhaps he may seem to say somewhat. But Origen himself, that best understood his own meaning, calleth the same Meat, in the same place, by express, and plain words, not only a thing Material, but also the very Mater of Bread itself: His words be these: Nec Materia Panis, 
Origen. in Matt. Cap. 15.  sed super illum dictus sermo est, qui prodest non indignè Domino comedenti: It is not the Mater of the Bread, but the word spoken over it, that profiteth him, that Eateth not unworthily for the Lord. Now judge thou indifferently. Gentle Reader, how just causes M. harding had, to move these Tragedies.  
Further he saith, It liked our filthy Spirit, with vile words to bring the Holy Mysteries into contempt, and therein do the Devil great service. O, M. harding, some other speech would better become a man of your gravity. Such liquor seldom floweth from the Spirit of God. We neither increase, or diminish, nor any way alter the words of Origen: but lay them forth plainly, and simply, as we find them. For thus he writeth: Ille Cibus, qui sanctificatur per Verbum Dei, & per Obsecrationem, juxta id, quod habet Materiale, in Ventram abit, & in secessum eijcitur. Coeterùm juxta precationem, quae illi accessit, pro portione Fidei fit utilis: The Meat that is Sanctified by the Word of God, and by Prayer, according to that Material part, that is in it, passeth into the belly, and so forth into the Privy, etc. If there be any Filthiness or Villainy herein, it is this Ancient Fathers, whom ye ought not so uncourteously to revile for Uncleanness of Spirit: it is not ours.  
How be it, 
Vile Speech.  this is not origen's only judgement: but the general, and agreeable Doctrine of all others the Catholic Fathers. And to allege one in steed of many, S. Augustine saith, as he is before alleged, Si ad res ipsas, quibus Sacramenta tractantur, animum conferamus, quis nesciat, eas esse corruptibiles? Si ad id, quod per illas res agitur, 
Augustin. De Baptismo contra Donatis. Li. 3. Cap. 10.  quis non videat, non posse corrumpi? If we consider the things themselves, wherein the Sacraments be Ministered, who knoweth not, that they be things corruptible? But if we consider the thing, that is wrought thereby, who seeth not, that it cannot be corrupted? The Holy Fathers speak not thus of Christ's Body, but of the Bread, which is the Sacrament of Christ's Body. So saith S. Ambrose, Non iste Panis, qui vadit in Corpus: sed Panis Vitae Aeternae, 
De Con. Dist 2 Non iste.  qui animae nostra Substantiam fulcit: (The Bread that I mean, is) not this Bread (of the Sacrament) that passeth into the Body: but the Bread of everlasting Life, that maineteineth the Substance of the Soul.  
Now if there were such filthiness, as you have imagined, in the Holy Learned Bishops, and Doctors of the Church, for uttering these, and other like words, of the corruptible Creatures of Bread, and Wine, what clean Spirit than is there in them, that speak so filthily of Christ's Body itself, being now Uncorruptible, 
In the. 23. Article. Alexand. Halen. par. 4. quae. 45. Mem. 1.  and Glorious, at the Right Hand of the Father? Hereof I had occasion to speak somewhat in my Former Reply.  
Alexander of Hales saith, Quidam dicunt, ubicunque ponantur Species, siue in mundo loco, sive in immundo, sive in Ventre Muris, ibi est Corpus Christi: some say, where so ever the forms, or Accidents be laid, whether the place be clean, or unclean, yea though it be in the mouse's belly, yet there is the Body of christ. Again he saith, Si Canis, vel Porcus deglutiret Hostiam Consecratam integram, non video, quare Corpus Domini non simul traijceretur in ventrem Canis, vel Porci: If a Dog, or Hog should swallow down the Host Consecrate being whole, I see no cause to the contrary, but the Body of Christ may pass withal into the belly of the Dog, or of the Hog.  
Likewise your own Clemens, whom ye so often call the Apostles Fellow, writeth thus, 
Clemens. epist. 2.  Ne Murium stercora inter fragmenta Dominicae Portionis appareant: Let not Miso dung be found among the fragments, or peecces of the lords Portion. He meaneth the Sacrament. Your own Catholic allowed Gloze saith, Corpus Christi potest evomi: 
De Con. Dist. 2. Si quis. In Gloss.  The Body of Christ may be vomited up again.  
It abhorreth my heart to utter these words: They be so horrible, and full of Filth. Yet this, M. harding, is your own Doctrine: This is your Spirit: This is it, that ye have so long maintained with Fire, and Sword. By such unclean, and uncivil speech, ye bring Christ's Body itself into contempt, and lothesomenesse in the hearts of the people.  
But that you may the better see the consent, & certainty of your own Doctrine, whereas you are well content to expound these words of Origen, as undoubtedly spoken of the Sacrament of Christ's Body, your Instructor, and Master, Doctor Gardiner, telleth you, that the same words pertain nothing at all unto the Sacrament: And yet, unto what thing else they should pertain, it séemethe by the doubtfulness of his answer, he was never well resolved. His words be these: 
Mar. Anton. Constantius, ad obiectum 166.  Non de Eucharistia loquitur Origenes, sed de Pane sanctificato per Verbum Dei, & Orationem, quem communiter manducamus: vel de eo, qui solebat dari Catechumenis, de quo Augustinus: Origen speaketh not (these words) of the Sacrament: but either of the Bread, that is sanctified by Our lords word, and by Prayer, which We commonly use to Eat: or else he speaketh of the Bread, that was geeven to the Novices, called Catechumeni, Whereof S. Augustine speaketh. 
Holy forms.  If this tale be true, then is yours Untrue, M. harding, and all your long Commentary of forms, and Accidents, is but in vain. It were good, ye took a day, that ye may be better agreed upon that, ye tell us.  
And, whereas, to shift the matter, ye put your poor Spiritual forms, and Holy Accidents to all the pains, to pass into the belly, & so forth into the draft, and avouch the same in such sober wise, as if ye partly understood, what ye said, it may please you to understand, that by the judgement of your own Schoolefelowes the canonists, ye are foully deceived. For thus they determine the matter, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Tribus gradibus, in Gloss●.  quite against you: Species illae alijs cibis non permiscentur: Non enim in stomachum descendunt: quare per secessum non emittuntur: These forms, or Accidents are not mingled with other meats. For they go not down into the stomach: and therefore they pass not into the Privy.  
Heareby it may appear, that either the Gloze, or M. harding, is in error. But the Gloze is allowed, and counted Catholic: therefore the error must be M. hardings. How be it, to say the truth, M. harding, and his Gloze too, are both in error.    

The Apology.  
Or that, which Christ himself said, not only after the Blessing of the Cup, but also after he had Ministered the Communion, I will drink no more of this Fruit of the Vine. It is well known, that the Fruit of the Vine is Wine, and not Blood.  

M. harding.  
Christ (say they) himself said, not only after the blessing of the Cup, but after he had Ministered the Communion, I will drink no more of this Fruit of the Vine. Hereunto they add of their own heads, 
* Untruth. For these be S. Chrysostomeswords. and not ours.  It is well known, that the Fruit of the Vine is Wine, and not Blood. By this they would signify, that in the Chalice we have not Christ's Blood, as himself said, but mere Wine, as against Christ they labour to persuade.  
But we say, 
Cap. 22.  that those words (I will not drink from hence forth of this generation of the Vine) either were spoken 
* M. harding refuseth S. Mathewes, and S. Marks Order.  only before the communion, 
This is M. hardings Undoubted Certainty.  
* As by way of a Sacrament. Otherwise it is Untrue.  or only after, or in both times. If they were spoken before the Communion. (which opinion is the more probable) it is very clearly proved by them, that wine remaineth not, as it shall hereafter be deduced.  
For these causes it may well be said, that we should rather follow the order of Luke, who witnesseth that Christ spoke these words before his maundy, * then matthew, and Mark, who tell it, as spoken after. Secondly the order of Luke is confirmed by the circumstance of the things, that he describeth, more than the other Evangelists. Now because in the Chalice of the Old Law there was certainly not Blood, but Wine, (whereas Christ teacheth, that in his Chalice his own Blood is * contained) let▪ he discrete Reader judge, whether we must not rather think, that these words of Christ▪ I will not from henceforth drink of this generation of the Vine, do not rather pertain to the Cup of the Old Law, (as Luke placeth them) then to the Chalice of Christ after the Consecration, whereof matthew, and Mark rehearse them.  
Fourthly, and lazily, when Mathe we, and Mark rehearse that Christ said, he would not from henceforth drink of that generation of the Vine, they both, in much like sort of speaking, add thereunto these words, 
Mathae. 26. Mark. 14. New drinking.  (which in the Apology were guilfully left out) Until that day, when I will drink it New with you in the Kingdom of God my Father. If Christ speak of a New drinking, which is to come, by likelihood the drink paste is Old. What exclamation would be sufficient to express, that in this 
‡ A weighty point of Salvation. Yet M. H. himself, by his Confession, understandeth i● not.  weighty point of Salvation, our English clergy are content 
* Vantruthe, vain and arro● gantc.  to blind the people, 
* Untruth, vain and arrogant.  the right worshipful, yea the Honourable of our Country in so vile a sort, that after many Father's words misreported, and wrongfully wrested, they doubt not to attempt the same in Christ's own sayings, and in those sayings of his, which evidently prove the contrary.  
But now let us grant of our free liberality, 
The Fruit of the Vine.  contrary to so many good and strong reason's, that Christ said after consecration. I will not from henceforth drink of this generation of the Vine, until the Kingdom of God come. Then it must be further understanded, that the kingdom of God is taken in Scripture sommetime for the present state of the Church, 
The Kingdom of God taken two ways. Matth. 3.  after Christ's resurrection in this wòrlde, according to that is said oftentimes, in Scripture, The Kingdom of God draweth nigh: sometimes also for the joy of Heaven: as when Christ saith, I dispose for you a Kingdom, as my Father hath disposed for me, that ye may eat and drink at my table, etc. Now if we take these words of Christ, spoken before Consecration, it is not unconvenient, to understand them of either of both kingdoms: that is to say, of the Kingdom of Resurrection, or of Glory, as Chrysostom and other do witness, because both were to come at that time. But if we take them spoken after consecration, 
Luc. 2●.  as we rather upon confidence of the truth, then for necessity, at this time do grant, than these words (Until the Kingdom of God come) are to be meant only of the Kingdom of Glory. For these holy Mysteries belong to the Kingdom of Christ's Resurrection and Ascension. Neither were they practised by the Apostles in the Church of Christ, until the Holy Ghost came down upon them.  
And so the newness of it there, is fruition of it, not under the forms of Bread, and Wine, 
* Untruth, grounded upon a mere folly.  as we have it now, but face to face without all figure and form. Then is it to be noted that Christ said not, I will drink no more of the Fruit of the Vine, But, I will not from henceforth drink of this generation of the Vine: Of this I say, whereof now I have drunken, 
‡ Untruth, threapte upon Christ himself.  which is under the form of wine my Blood, which am the true Vine. For whereas this Apology saith (it is well known, that the fruit of the Vine is Wine, and not Blood) it seemeth to declare that the Authors thereof are ignorant in the holy Scriptures, where 
* A fond Cavil. For we speak only of a Natural Vine.  they might have found the fruit of some Vine to be called Blou●●. 
Gene. 49.  For jucob said to his son jadas, bearing the Figure of Christ, He shall wash his rob in Wine, and his cloak in the Blood of a Grape. Lo, a Grape hath his Blood: a Grape is the fruit of the Vine: and therefore it is not well known, that the fruit of the Vine is not Blood. The Holy Ghost did in these words of jacob prophecy, 
In. 1. Cori. 10.  that Christ the true Vine should give the Grape of his Body to be pressed upon the Cross, from whence the Wine was shed, 
* As in a Mystery. Otherwise it is Untrue.  which is in our Chalice as Chrysostom also noteth. And now is it no wonder if we expound the word (Vine) mystically.  
O what strength Truth hath? how plainly she dareth to show her face, r●tt nipping the Scriptures, nor misenglishinge them, nor dissembling any jot, that may seem to make against her.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Mark, 
1.  Gentle Reader, how mightily M. harding wrestleth, and what pains he taketh, to draw this place to his purpose. first he assureth us for certain, that Christ spoke these words Before the Consecration, and that therefore they pertain nothing to the Sacrament. 
2.  Nevertheless, afterward he granteth, as he saith, of his free liberality, that Christ spoke the same words After the Consecration, 
3.  & that they pertain specially to the Sacrament. And yet again upon further affiance, and boldness of the cause, he seemeth to say, It may be, that Christ spoke the same words at both times: that is, as well After the Consecration, as Before.  
Again, he saith, S. Luke's rehearsal is more likely, then S. Mathewes: For that S. 
4.  Luke writeth each thing in Order: and S. Mathe we out of Order.  
Again, 
5.  One Cup is first the Wine of the Old Testament: and immediately after the same Cup is the Wine of the New Testament.  
Again, 
6.  The Kingdom of God, sommetime is the state of the Church, sommetime it is the state of Glory. 
7.  Again, The Fruit of the Grape sommetime is very Natural Wine, 
Anton. Constantius ad Obiectum. 27.  sommetime it is the very Blood of Christ. notwithstanding Stevin Gardiner saith, that neither the Natural Wine, nor Christ's very Blood, but the Accidents, and forms are the Fruit of the Vine. 
8.  Yet again he saith, Christ Drank his own very Blood at the Supper: and even now himself Drinketh the same his own Blood in the kingdom of Heaven. 
The Fruit of the Vine.   
In the end M. harding, after he hath well wandered, and walked himself, both Before, and After: In Order, and out of Order: This Way, and that Way: with the Old Cup, and with the New: and hath well stated himself by conjectures, and likelihoods: at the last be bloweth up the Tr●umphe, with a jolly courage, and crieth out, O what strength Truth hath, and how plainly she dareth to she we her face.  
Here, by the way, a man might demand of M. harding, notwithstanding the great Confidence he pretendeth in his cause: If Christ spoke these words, Before the Consecration, of the very Natural Wine of the Grape, and of the Ceremonial Cup of the Old Law, 
Before.  how drank he then afterward of the same Natural Wine of the Grape, after a New sort? or how was the same Natural Wine fulfilled in the Kingdom of God? If Christ spoke the same word? After the Consecration, 
After.  the Substance of Wine, by these men's fantasy, being utterly abolished, and nothing there remaininge, but only the Accidents, how was it then the Fruit, or generation of the Vine?  
But, to leave these unfruitful gheasses, until M. harding have better agreed with himself upon some certainty, we say, that the Cup of Blessing, which Christ calleth the Cup of the New Testament, not withstanding it were made in a Mystery the Sacrament of Christ's Blonde▪ yet in Nature, and Substance was very Wine still, and, as Christ himself ●●lleth it, the very Fruit, and generation of the Grape, as it was before.  
The words of the evangelist S. 
Matthae. 2●  matthew are very pl●●ne: He took the Cup: and, when he had given thanks, he gave it them, saying, Drink ye all of it: For this is my ●loude of the New Testament, that is shed for many▪ for the Remission of Sins. I say unto you, that I will not Drink hencef●ourthe of this Fruit of the Vine, until that day, when I shall Drink it New with you in the Kingdom of my Father. To avoid the manifest truth of this rehearsal, M. harding saith, S. matthew uttered one thing for an other: the Later for the Former: the Cup Consecrate, for the Cup Unconsecrate: and placed his matters out of order. And by this poor shift, he thinketh the Story of the Gospel is fully answered.  
But let us see, what the Learned Fathers have judged, and written in this behalf. So shall the weight of these coniectural gheasses, and the Face of M. hardings Truth, which he so much magnifieth without cause, the better appear. 
Clemens in ●●●dagogo. li. 2. Cap. 2.  Clemens Alexandrinus hereof writeth thus, Quòd Vinum esset, quod benedictum est, Christus ostendit, dicens Discipulis, Non bibam ex Fructu Vitis huius, donec bibe●o ipsum vobiscum in Regno Patris mei: That it was Wine, that was Blessed (at the Supper) Christ himself showed his Discipses, saying: I will no more Drink of the Fruit of this Vine, until I shall Drink it with you in the Kingdom of my Father. What so ever it shall Please M. harding to think of the sense hereof, he must needs confess, the words are very plain. Likewise. saith S. Cyprian, Dominus Sanguinem suum Vinum appellavit, de botris, & acinis plurimis expressum, atque in Vinum coactum: 
Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 6.  The Wine pressed our of Clusters, and many Grapes, and so made Wine, Our Lord called his Blood. S. Augustine saith, Et Vinum fuit in Redemptionis nostrae Mysterio, cùm Dominus diceret, 
Augustin. De Ecclesiast. Dogmatibus Ca 75.  Non bibam àmodo de hoc genimine Vitis: There was Wine in the Mystery, or sacrament of Our Redemption, when Our Lord said, I will no more Drink henceforth of this Fruit of the Vine. Here note thou, good Reader, how handsomely S. Augustine, and M. harding agree together. S. Augustine saith plainly, it was the Sacrament: M. harding saith plainly, it was not the Sacrament. S. Augustine saith, These words were spoken after the Consecration: M. harding findeth fault with S. Mathewes order, and saith, They were spoken before the Consecration. S. Augustine following the plain words of Christ, saith, It was Wine: M. harding following his own words, against both S. Augustine, and Christ too, saith undoubtedly, It was no Wine.  
Again S. 
Augusti. Quae. Euangelicar. Li. 1 Cap. 43.  Augustine saith, Dominus per Vini Sacramentum, commendat Sanguinem suum. Quid enim aliud, Nowm Vinum, nisi Immortalitatem renovandorum Corporum intelligere debemus? Our Lord by the Sacrament (not of forms, or Accidents, but) of Wine, commendeth unto us his Blood. For what other thing may we understand thee New Wine to be, but the Immortality of our Bodies, that shallbe reviewed? S. Chrysostom saith, Cùm Dominus hoc Mysterium traderer, Vinum tradidit. 
Chrysost. in Mat. Homi. 83.  Etiam post Resurrectionem sine Mysterijs in simplici mensa Vino usus est. Ex genimine, ait, Vitis: quae certè Vinum, non Aquam producit: Our Lord, when he delivered this Mystery, delivered (not Accidents, but) Wine. And after his Resurrection, being at a plain table without the Mysteries, he used Wine. For so he saith, Of the fruit of the Vine: Which vine surely beareth, not Water, 
Cyprian. Lib. 2. Dionysius, & Lyra in Matth. ca 26.  but Wine. M. harding saith: Who so ever expoundeth these words as spoken of the Mysteries, belieth both the Holy Fathers, and Christ himself. S. Chrysostom expoundeth the same words, as spoken of the Mysteries, and to that purpose applieth the words of Christ. Therefore, by M. hardings Conclusion, he belieth both the Holy Fathers, and Christ himself.  
In like manner S. Jerome saith, Christus in Typo Sanguinis sui non obtulit Aquam, 
Hiero●y adversus jovinian. Lib. 2.  sed Vinum: Christ in the Signification of his Blood, offered, not Water, but Wine. By these few, I trust, it may easily appear to the indifferent Reader, how just cause M. harding had, thus to proclaim, and publish the Face, as he saith, of his Truth: and with such courage, and countenance to cry out, that we have wilfully corrupted the words of Christ.  
M. harding saith further. These Defenders add of their own heads, It is Well known, that the Fruit of the Vine is Wine, and not Blood. I thought M. harding would not have picked so simple a quarrel to these words, of whose head so ever they had been added. For, I trow, he hath but seldom heard, or seen, that a Natural Vine hath borne Natural Blood. Now be it, these words proceeded not altogether of our own heads. 
Chrysost. in Mat. Homi. 83.  S. Chrysostom also of his head uttered the same. For thus he writeth, Ex genimine Vitis: quae cert● Vinum producit, not Aquam: Of the Fruit of the Vine: which Vine verily bringeth forth, not Water, 
cyprian. 2. Epist. 3. Dionysius & lyra in Matth. ca 26.  but Wine. S. Cyprian saith, invenimus Vinum fuisse, quod Dominus Sanguinem suum dixit: We find, it was Wine, that our Lord called his Blood. And Dionysius, Lyra, and other like Doctors of M. hardings own side, say, De hoc genimine Vitis: id est, de Vini, quod generatur in Vinea: Of this Fruit of the Vine: that is to say, Of the Wine, that groweth of the Vine.  
Again M. harding saith, It is to be noted, that Christ said not, I will drink no more of the Fruit of the Vine: But, I will not from henceforth drink of this Generation of the Vine: as if there were some maruilous great difference between these two words, Fruit, and Generation. And this thing, he saith, is well worthy to be noted. Verily the difference between these two words is as great, as is the difference bitwéene Ensis, and Gladius: or Liber, & Codex: between which words, sound only excepted, it is hard to discern, whether is other. M. harding saith, It is to be noted, that Christ said not, I will drink no more of the Fruit of the Vine: 
Hilari. in Mat. Canon. 30.  Yet S. Hilary saith, Bibentes ex Vitis istius Fructu: Drinking of the Fruit of this Vine. If these words, as being doubtfully spoken, may be shifted into some other sense: Yet Clemens Alexandrinus, 
Clemens in Paedagogo, Lib. 2. Cap. 2.  as he is before alleged, & as he is translated by Gentianus Heruetus, saith plainly, Non bibam de hoc Fructu Vitis: I will no more Drink of this Fruit of the Vine. And S. Cyprian somewhat in plainer wise saith, Non Bibam ex ista Creatura Vitis: I will no more Drink of this Creature of the Vine. Therefore, I think, M. harding himself will say, This note was not greatly worth the noting.  
Yet farther he saith, 
Cyprian. Lib. 2. Epist 3.  These Defenders seem to be Ignorant of the Holy Scriptures: Where they might have found the Fruit of some Vine to be called Blood. For jacob said of Christ, He shall wash his rob in Wine and his Cloak in the Blood of a Grape. It is a hard shift, M. harding, so suddenly to convey the matter from ordinary use of speech, unto an Allegory, We speak of a Natural growing Vine, which, we say, beareth not Blood, but only Wine. But, as touching that ye say, Christ is called a Vine in the Holy Scriptures, it is only an Allegory, or a Figure of speech. For although Christ, for cèrtaine properties, may be resembled unto a Vine▪ yet is he not therefore verily, & in deed a Natural growing Vine. Therefore it was great violence, thus to force yewoordes of the Scriptures to this purpose. Otherwise, by the like phrase of speech, one saith, Lachryma est quidam Animae Sanguis: A tear is a certain Blood of the Soul. And S. Augustine saith, Vident Sanguinem Corpoium: Animarum Sanguinem non vident: They see the Blood of the Bodies: but the Blood of the Souls they see not. 
Androcides.  An other called Wine, Terrae Sanguinem, the Blood of the Earth. Yet may not M. harding say, that either the Soul of Man, or the mould of the Earth, in deed hath Natural, & Real, & very Blood. These be only certain Figures, & forms of speech. But Christ, when he said, I will no more Drink of this fruit of the Vine, Spoke plainly, & simply, & without Figure. And therefore Chrysostom saith, as it is alleged before, Ex genimine Vitis: quae certè Vinum producit, 
Chrysostom. in Matthae. Homil. 83.  non Aquam: Of the Fruit of the Vine: which Vine verily bringeth forth, not Water, but Wine. But Chrysostom saith, The Wine, that was shed from Christ's Body, that is to say, the Blood of Christ, is in the Cup. 
Chrysostom. 1. Corin. 10.  This is true, as in a Mystery, or by a Figure of speech: because Christ's Blood is represented in the Cup. Otherwise, if we speak simply, & plainly, and without Figure, Chrysostom saith, In vasis Sanctificatis non est ipsum Corpus Christi: sed Mysterium Corporis eius continetur: 
Chrysostom. in Matthae. Homil. 11.  In the Sanctified vessels, there is not the very Body of Christ in deed: but a Mystery of that Body is therein contained.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 1.  
And in speaking thus, we mean not to abase the lords Supper, or to teach, that it is but a cold Ceremony only, & nothing to be wrought therein: (as many falsely slander us, we teach) For we affirm, that Christ doth truly, & presently give himself wholly in his Sacraments: In Baptism, that we may put him on: & in his Supper, that we may Eat him by Faith, & Spirit, & may have everlasting Life by his Cross & Blood. And we say not, this is done slightly & coldly, but effectually & truly. For although we do not touch the Body of Christ with teeth, and mouth, yet we hold him fast, and eat him by Faith, by Understanding, and by Spirit. And it is no vain Faith, that comprehendeth Christ: neither is it received with cold devotion, that is received with Understanding, Faith, & Spirit. For Christ himself altogether is so offered, and geeven us in these Mysteries, that we may certainly know we be Flesh of his Flesh, and Bone of his Bones: and that Christ continueth in us, and we in him.   

M. harding.  
It is easy to be perceived, 
By whom is our lords Supper more abased, by the Defenders, or by the Catholics.  who abaseth more our lords Supper, whether ye, that teach it to be very 
* Untruths two together: For we never called it either Baker's Bread, or only Figure.  Baker's Bread and Wine with the 
* What so ever corruptible Creature is honoured as God, it is an Idol.  only Figure of Christ's Body and Blood, or we who believe it to be his true Body and Blood, with the only forms of Bread and Wine (Of which forms neither Christ, nor his Apostles ever told us one word). Wether ye, that will have it a Figure of Christ's whole Body absent, or we, who will have Christ's Body present in deed, with a Figure of his Death, which 
‡ Untruth. For Christ's Death is as Present, as his Body.  Death is absent only. Whether ye, that call it an 
* Untruth, grounded upon a dream. No Learned Doctor ever said thus.  Idol when it is worshipped, or we that do according to our dueitie adore it, because that Royal Body (as Chrysostom saith) which is set before us 
‡ Untruth, standing in wrong Exposition. For Chrysostom saith, Ascend ad Coeli portas: imò non Coeli, sed Coeli Coelorum.  to be seen now in Earth, is worthy of the most high Honour. But whether of those two is the colder Ceremony and more simple Supper, to have Bread and Wine with a Sign only of Flesh and Blood, or to have Real Flesh and Blood with such forms of Bread and Wine, as 
* Untruth, grounded upon a dream. No Learned Doctor ever said thus.  by the Power of God do nolesse bodily nourish us, than the Substance itself would have done: we doubt not of wise men's judgement. Ye have your carnal Banquets fat and full enough of the best flesh, and it is with you superstitious to Eat dry and Lenten meats. But ye will have your spiritual Banquets so lean, and Carrion, as a man may well discern, whether ye have more fantasy to your Flesh, or to your Spirit.  
Ye writ, 
The Sacramentaries teach nothing to be wrought in their lords Supper. 1. Corin. 11. What is Supper properly.  that many falsely slander you, saying that ye teach nothing to be wrought in the lords Supper, whereas ye affirm, that Christ doth truly and presently give his own self in his Supper, that we may eat him by Faith and Spirit. And other work in the lords Supper ye show none. And this which ye show, a man may doubt, whether it be a thing wrought in the lords Supper, or no. Well may ye say, that it is a thing wrought in them which come to the Supper: but that it is wrought in the supper itself, ye show it not: the Supper being that which is called Coena, to wit, the meat recetued, not Coenatio, which is the act of supping. For sith that supper is nothing else but meat and drink set upon the Table to be received by such as come unto it, that which is wrought in the lords Supper, must be wrought 
‡ The Bread is for us, not we for the Bread.  in the meat and Drink, which our Lord hath at his table. And as the matter whereof our lords Supper is made, is Bread and Wine: so the Supper made thereof is our lords Body and Blood, into which the Bread and Wine by the Almighty power of the Word is changed. So that if ye will show Christ himself to be 
* Christ made: Christ Wrought: A strange Divinity.  made or 
* Untruth. For M. Harding well knoweth, that this fond folly was never Catholic.  wrought in our lords Supper, ye must show Bread and Wine to be changed into Christ himself, and so to be Eaten of his faithful at his Table. But whereas there are three things, christ, taht maketh the Supper, the Communicantes that receive the Supper, and the Supper itself: ye say that Christ for his part giveth his own self verily present, likewise that Communicantes for their part Eat him by faith and spirit. And so ye show, that the maker of the Supper worketh, and that the Communicantes work. But all this while ye show us not what is wrought in the matter of the Supper, that is to say, in the Bread and Wine, nor what is made. O great sclaumder that ye were charged withal, which not so much as by your own word ye are discharged of.  
How much sounder is the 
‡ Such unchristian scorns, against Christ's ordinance are very unseemly.  Catholic doctrine, 
The proper work of our lords Supper.  which reacheth the proper work of our lords Supper to be the turning of the Substance of Bread and Wine into his Body and Blood? Which work because ye will not confess, ye have devised a work of your own working, which is not proper to our lords Supper. For if I can receive Christ in my house at home by Faith and Spirit, how is that work 
* Christ offereth himself unto our Faith: and by our Faith he is received.  proper to his Supper, which may be Wrought without his Supper? Or can I not believe in Christ, or lift up my Spirit unto him 
‡ Suthche unchristian scorns, against christes ordinance are very unseemly.  except I come to Supper? Or If I do call for Christ, doth he not give himself by grace unto me?  
But (say ye) at the lords Supper Christ giveth himself verily present. 
How make the Defenders Christ verily Present in his Supper.  To what purpose? I pray you. That we may Eat him (say ye) by Faith, and Spirit. Well reasoned forsooth. Have ye forgotten the giving to eat, and eating that, which is given, to be Relatives, one of them having relation to the other? If Christ do exhibit himself verily present, as your Latin Text hath, or giveth his own self verily and presently, as your Interpreter telleth your tale for you: 
* Christ offereth himself unto our Faith: and by our Faith he is received.  doth not he so exhibit or give himself, as he willbe received? Or doth he show in one hand a piece of Bread, and with the other strike us on the head with a stone? If he give us himself verily present, as ye say, we take him verily Present. And then (unless ye mean by himself, his grace, which is of Christ, and not Christ himself) we eat him verily Present, not only by Faith, and Spirit, but by taking him into 
* This is the Cannibals Divinity. S. Ambrose saith, Non hic Panis. qui vadit in ventrem.  our Mouth, and Body. If it please him at any time to be Eaten by Fatthe and spirit alone, (after which sort he is dately eaten by those that humbly call upon him) than he giveth not himself verily Present, but by Faith and spirit, other wise named grace, or some spiritual effected of his working. But in our lords Supper the Scripture requireth a special and peculiar presence of christ, to wit, of his flesh, so as it may be Eaten. If then he give himself verily present, as ye say, he is present in his own person, God and Man, with Body, with Blood, with Soul, with Godhead. If ye mean the very presence of his Godhead, that presence belongeth no more to Christ, them to the Father, and to the Holy Ghost. And so have ye not declared any pecultar presence belonging to his Supper. For by Presence of his Godhead he is always verily present, as well before Supper, as at, or after Supper: because he filleth Heaven and Earth. It remaineth that either ye understand not yourselves, or wilfully deceive that infinite number of Souls, for Whose sake Christ hath shed his Blood.  

‡ Untruth. For the finest, and best Learned Fathers have maintained the same: As shall appear.  Your error in making the Presence of Christ in Baptism like to his presence in the Supper is to gross. 
The presence of Christ in Baptism and in the Supper is distinct, which the Defenders make to be like.  For although Christ work both our Regeneration and our nourrishment by his Divine Sacraments, yet in Baptism our Regeneration is by name attributed in the Gospel to the Holy Ghost also, to show that Christ's presence there is spiritual. But his Supper consisteth of his Body and Blood, which are so united to Christ, as they are peculiar to the second person in Godhead. Again for asmuch as they are received into us, as food to nourish our Bodies to Resurrection, 
* Untruth. For there is no such word in all the Gospel.  as the Gospel saith, and noman's Body is otherwise nourished then by eating in deed that meat whereof he is nourrished, and the Flesh of Christ, as himself saith, is 
‡ S. Cyprian saith, Cibus mentis, non Ventris.  meat in deed, and his Blood Drink in deed: We are forced to believe an other manner of presence in the Sacrament of the Altar, then in Baptism. And therefore ye have handled this matter to slightly and coldly.  
Where as ye say, we do not touch the Body of Christ with Teeth and Mouth, 
* Heathenish, and unchristian scoffing.  are ye so accustomed to swallow down whole morsels, 
That we touch Christ's Body, and eat it with our mouth, and how. In. 1. Corin. Homi. ●4.  as ye never touch them with your Teeth? Or have ye learned to eat that, which ye touch not with your Mouth? If Christ said, Take, Eat, this is my Body, and the Apostles took and Eat the same, neither could they take and Eat without touching: it seemeth ye handle eating to slightly and coldly, when ye will have it without touching. Chrysostom a more Substanital handler of things than any of you is, saith of Christ's Body, Quod omnium maximum est atque praecipuum, in terra non conspicaris tantùm, sed tangis: neque sliontangis, sed comedis, & ●o accepto domum redis. Of all things that be in earth, what is the greatest, and the chiefest, 
‡ As you See Christ's Body in the Sacrament, even so ye touch it, and so ye Eat● it: and none otherwise. S. Ambrose saith, Fide Christus tangitur: Non tangitur Corpore.  that dost thou not only see, but touchest: neither only dost thou touch it, but also eat it, and having received it, thou goest home again. How we touch it we know, for it is not now a mortal and corruptible Body, wherein we may fasten our Teeth, but glorious, and immortal, 
* Untruth, Childish, and unsavoury. The Learned Fathers never knew these follies.  and therefore we touch it by the reason of the Accidents of Bread and Wine▪ with whose Forms (as S. Augustine speaketh) it is covered or veiled, 
In Lib. Sentent. Prosp. The Defenders imaginary holding of Christ holdeth not Christ as he is in the Sacrament. Matth. 26.  and so cometh it to our Teeth, and to our Mouth, and nourrisheth both our Bodies and Souls to life everlasting. Nay but we say ye) hold him fast, and Eat him by Faith, by Understanding, and by the Spirit. I pray you be not to has●●e to hold him, before ye have him. How came ye by him? His grace he giveth diverse ways, but himself Bodily and presently as man, he never promised to give otherwise, then when he said, Take, Eat, this is my Body. And then judas 
‡ judas had a very mean Faith.  (who had but a very mean Faith) because he received the Sacrament, received him also. And our Blessed Lady although she had a most persitte Faith, received him not after that sort, because than she received not the Sacrament. How can ye assure yourselves, that your Faith takeht the Body of Christ, 
* Untruth, As shall appear. But where was Christ's Body promised to your Mouth.  which was never promised to your Faith? If your Faith take him not as he is in the Sacrament, how can your Faith hold him fast there?  
As here before ye have said much and proved little against the Real Presence, wresting and stretching certain Fathers sentences and the Scripture itself to that purpose, not wholly and Faithfully, but by piecemeal and p●tchedly alleged, so as ye might best make them serve to the mainetenance of your false Doctrine: right so in the conclusion of that part of your Apology, with a like grace ye heap a number of mangled authorities together, whereby to persuade, that for asmuch as the Fathers have advertised us to lift up our minds to heaven ward, 
Baker's Bread.  we should not think we Late the Flesh of Christ as being here present with us under the Form of Bread. Therefore whereas ye lay to the Catholics charge, as though by their Sacrilege the people were bereft of a great benefit, in that they be taught to be content with the one kind, under the same receiving nolesse then if they had both: how much more worthily are ye to be charged with the crime of Sacrilege, that 
* Untruth For we rob them not, but offer them in deed, and verily the Body of christ: and show them where, and wherewith they may receive it.  rob them of the greatest Treasure that is in the Church, so much as in you lieth, the Body and Blood of our Lord: and in steed thereof pretend to deliver unto them a piece of Baker's Bread, and a cup of wine? But let us see what good reason or authority ye bring out of the Fathers against the true presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O M. harding, your conscience knoweth, and will testify against yourself, that we never called the Holy Sacrament of Christ's Body, Baker's Bread, no more then we call the Sacrament of Baptism, a pail of Water. We have always spoken honourably, and reverently hereof, as it was meat we should speak of the Mysteries of the Death of Christ, and as the Holy Catholic Fathers have evermore used to speak before us.  
These wild, and wanton, & unseemly speeches agree rather with your Doctrine. For, call your own words a little to remembrance. In your first Answer, 
M. harding Articulo. 24.  ye call the Holy Sacrament, as it is used, and Ministered by us, according to the Order of the Holy Fathers, A piece of Bread not worth a point: In this place ye call the Holy Ministration so used by us, A lean, and a Carrien Banquet: In the next division, ye cat it A Toy. These be your words, M. harding, and may well stand, both with the Sobriety of your Spirit, and also with the whole Substance, and tendure of your Religion.  
We call it, The Sacrament of thanksgiving, and the Sacrament of Christ's Body, and Blood. And with the Holy Father S. Augustine we say, In Sacramentis videndum est, 
August▪ Contra Maximin. Lib. 3. Cap. 22.  non quid sint, sed quid Significent: In Sacraments we must Consider, not what they be (in themselves) but what they Signify.  
We have no special regard to the Bread, Wine, or Water: For they are Creatures Corruptible, as well after Consecration, as they were before: But we direct our Faith Only unto the very Body, & Blood of Christ: not as being there Really, and Fleashel● Present, as ye have imagined: but as sitting in Heaven at the right-hand of God the Father. The Holy Father Chrysostom saith, although in general words, not speaking specially of this Sacrament: Oculi Fidei, 
Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 24.  quando vident haec ineffabilia bona, ne sentiunt quidem haec visibilia. Tantum inter haec, & illa interest: The eyes of our Faith, when they behold these unspeakable good things, they do not so much, as mark these out ward things, that we see with our Bodily eyes So great is the difference between these things And herein resteth the grossness of your error, that ye divide not the one thing from the other. S. Augustine saith, 
August. in johan. Tracta. 26. Augustin. De Doctrina Christiana. Lib. 3. Cap. 5. Origen. In Prologo in Cantica Canticor.  Aliud est Sacramentum, aliud res Sacramenti: The Sacrament of Christ's Body is one thing: and the Substance of the Sacrament, (or Christ's Body represented by the Sacrament) is an other thing. And again he saith, Ea demùm est miserabilis animae servitus, Signa pro Rebus accipere: To take the Signs (or Sacraments) in steed of the things themselves, (that be Signified) is the miserable bondage of the Soul. In like manner Origen saith, Simpliciores nescientes distinguere, ac secernere, quae sint, quae in Scriptures Divinis Interiori Homini, quae verò Exteriori deputanda sint, vocabulorum similitudinibus falsi. ad ineptas quasdam Fabulas, & figmenta inania se contulerunt: Simple men, not able to discern in the Holy Scriptures, what things ought to be applied to the utter Man, and what to the Inner, being deceived by the likeness of words, have turned themselves to a sort of peevish Fables, and vain Fantasies.  
Ye call our Doctrine naked, 
Figure. Christ's Death. absent or Present.  and cold, for that we say, The Sacrament is a Figure. And yet because ye cannot in any wise deny, but the same word, Figure, to the same purpose is commonly used of all the ancient Catholic Fathers, and Doctors of the Church, Therefore ye thought it good to qualify, and to mince the matter, and to say, It is a Figure, not of the Body, but of the Death of Christ. And here it is a world to see, how pitifully ye trouble yourself with your variety, and change, and shift of Figures.  
first you say, The Sacrament, by the judgement of Damascene, is called a Figure before the Consecration, 
M. Hard. Artic. 12. Division. 2.  that is to say, before the Sacrament be a Sacrament. afterward upon better advise ye say, The forms only, & the Shows, & Accidents are the Figure of Christ's Body. Again you say, Christ's Body Invisible, is a Figure of Christ's Body Visible: that is to say, A thing uncertain, is a Figure of a thing most certain. Now last of all ye say, as, I think, noman ever said before, The very Body of Christ itself is a Figure of the Death of Christ. Thus many pretty strange unknown Figures ye are drtuen to device, thereby to avoid one simple, plain, usual, & common Figure. For, to leave an infinite number of other ancient Fathers, 
Augustin. in Psalm. 3.  S. Augustine saith, Dominus Figuram Corporis sui Discipulis suis commendavit, & tradidit: Our Lord commended, and delivered to his Disciples a Figure (not, as ye say, of his Death, but) of his Body.  
Whereas you say, The Body of Christ is present in deed, & that his Death is absent only: If ye list to cavil, as ye do, &, as your manner is, idly to play with the words, and phrases of the Ancient Fathers, ye might as well, and by as good warrant, say, that Christ's Death is as Present, as his Body. For S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. Lib. 2. Epist. 3. Chrysotom. in Acta, Homil. 21. Hieronym. in Psalm. 97. De con. Dist. 2. Quid sit.  Passio Christi est Sacrificium, quod offerimus: The Sacrifice, that we offer, is the Passion of christ. Chrysostom saith, In Mysterijs Mors Christi perficitur: The Death of Christ is wrought in the Mysteries: S. Jerome saith, Christus nobis quotidiè Crucifigitur: Unto us Christ is Crucified every day. And S. Gregory saith, Christus iterum in hoc Mysterio Moritur: In this Mystery (of the Holy Communion) Christ is put to Death again. By these words thus pressed & rack, as your manner is, ye may easily prove, not only the Christ's Body, but also that his Passion, & Death, & Blood shedding is verily Present.  
Ye say, ye Adore the Sacrament with godly Honour. We answer you, as Christ sometime answered the woman of Samaria, Vos Adoratis, quod nescitis: Ye Adore, 
johan. 4.  and worship, ye know not what. For who ever willed you thus to Adore the Sacrament? Who taught you, who bade you so to do? What Prophet? What Apostle? What Father? What Doctor of the Church?  
But here, M. harding, ye do us great wrong, to say, we call Christ's Body an Idol. 
Chrysost. 1. Corin. Homil. 24.  For we know, and have evermore Confessed with Chrysostom, that the Body of Christ is worthy of the highest Honour: & we Adore it, and worship it, even as the very Body of the Son of God. How be it, as it is said before, Christ's Body is one thing, and the Sacrament is an other. The Sacrament is in Earth: Christ's Body is in Heaven, at the Right Hand of God the Father. 
Chrysostom. in eadem Homilia.  And therefore Chrysostom saith in the same place, A scend ergo ad Coeli portas, & diligenter attend: imò non Coeli, sed Coeli Coelorum: & tunc, quod dicimus, intueberis: Mount up therefore unto the gates of Heaven, and diligently consider: Nay, I say not, unto the gates of Heaven, but unto the gates of the Heaven of Heavens: and so shall ye see the things, that we speak of.  
But what meant you, M. harding, thus out of season to press in with your Lenten Argument, and to say, It is Superstitious with you, to Eat dry, and Lemen Meats? If ye say, there can be no Superstition in choice of meats, either ye are deceived yourself, or else seek occasion by the way, to deceive others.  
Tertullian saith, 
Lenten meats. Tertull. in Epistola De Cibis judaicis.  Deus ventre non colitur, nec cibis, quos Dominus dicit perire, & in secessu, naturali Lege purgari. Nam qui per Escas Dominum colit, prope est, ut Dominum habeat ventrem suum: God is not honoured with the Belly, nor with meats, which the Lord Christ saith, do perish, and are purged in conveyance by Natural Order. For who so by Meats honoureth the Lord, in a manner maketh his Belly to be his Lord. 
Hilari. in Psal●um. 64.  S. Hilary saith, Haeretici sicco Panis Cibo viwnt. Sed quis tandem oriosi huius propositi profectus est? Totum hoc inane, atque ridiculum est, & cum ipsis Superstitionis causis miserabile: Heretics live by dry Bread. But what profit is there in this idle purpose? It is altogether vain, and foolish, and in respect of the causes of their Superstition, it is also Miserable.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. ad Nepotianum.  Quid prodest oleo non vesci, & molestias quasdam, difficultatesque ciborum quaerere, Caricas, Piper, Nuces, Palmarum fructus, Similam, Mel, Pistacia? Audio praetereà, quosdam contra regulam, hominumque Naturam, aquam non bibere, nec vesci Pane: sed sorbitìunculas delicatas, & contrita olera, betarumque succum, non Calice sorbere, sed Concha: Prò pudor. Non erubescimus istiusmodi ineptijs? nec taedet Superstitionis? Insuper etiam famam abstinentiae in delicijs quaerimus: What availeth it, to eat no Oil, and with pain, and much ado, curiously to seek for meats, Figs, Pepper, Nuts, Dates, fine white Bread, Hoony, and Pistacia? Biside this, I hear say, there be somme, which contrarle to the common order, and Nature of men, will neither drink water, nor Eat bread: but seek for delicate suppings, and Herbs shridde together, and the juice of Beets, and receive the same, not out of a Cup, but out of a Shelle. Phy for shame. Do we not blush at such foolishness? Are we not weighed of such superstition? And yet beside all this, living in such curious delicacy, we look to be praised for our fasting. To leave all others, Erasmus, 
Erasm. in Anno. in 14. ad Roma.  a man of great judgement, saith, Maior est in his rebus Superstitio apud Christianos, quàm unquam fuit inter judaeos: There is more Superstition herein among Christians, than ever was among the jews. We weigh not the choice of Fish, or Flesh: but the burden of the mind, and the snare of the Conscience.  
But, to pass over your peerless Lenten talk, the Feast, that we set before the people, is neither dry, nor carrien, (notwithstanding it liketh you, by your uncivil terms, so to call it) but Spiritual, Holy, and Heavenly: I mean, the very Body of jesus Christ the Son of God, to the comfort, and relivinge of Body, and Soul. And yet, for as much as it so well delighteth your ears, to call it carrien, we refuse not the name. Chrysostom likewise, although in more reverend, and Civil sense, calleth it Carrien. These be his words, Vbi est Cadaver, ibi sunt Aquilae. 
Chrysostom. 1. Corin. Homi. 24.  Cadaver Domini corpus est propter Mortem. Aquilas autem appellat, ut ostendat, ad alta eum opotere contendere, qui ad hoc Corpus accedit, & nihil cum terra debere illum habere common, nec ad inferiora trahi, & repere, sed ad superiora semper volare, & in Solem justitiae intueri, mentisque oculum habere acutissimum. Aquilarum enim, non Graculorum, est haec Mensa: Where as the carrien is, there are the Eagles. The Carrien is the Body of Christ, in respect of his Death. But he nameth Eagles, to show, that, who so will approach to this Body, must mount aloft, and have no dealing with the Earth, nor be drawn, and creep downward: but must ever more flee up, and behold the Son of justice, and have the eye of his mind quick and sharp. For this is a Table of Eagles, that flee on high: not of jays, that creep beneath.  
Ye add further, But, say ye, at the lords Supper Christ giveth himself verily present. To what purpose? I pray you. That we may Eat him (say ye) by Faith, and Spirit. Well reasoned forsooth. Now forsooth, M. harding, this is Hicke Scorners Logic, far unmeet for a man of your gravity.  
Have ye forgotten (say you) the giving to eat, 
Verily Present.  and eating that which is given, to be Relatives, one of them having relation to the other? If Christ do exhibit himself, verily present, doth not he so exhibit or give himself, as he willbe received? If he give himself verily present, we take him verily Present. And then we eat him verily Present, not only by Faith, and spirit, but by taking him into our Mouth, and Belly. Verily, M. harding, this, of your part, was not very well reasoned. For a man may have Christ verily Present, although he have him not in his mouth. 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 50.  S. Augustine saith, Habes Christum In Praesenti, per Signum: In Praesenti, per Fidem: In Praesenti▪ per Baptismatis Sacramentum: Thou haste Christ in the time Present, by his Sign, or Token: In the time Present, by Faith: In the time Present, by the Sacrament of Baptism. And S. Augustine imagineth Christ thus to say unto the people of Caper●aum, 
Augu. in Psal. 9●  Non hoc Corpus, quod videris, manducaturi estis: Ye shall not eat (with your bodily mouth) this Body of mine, that you see. We remember well the Relation, that is between giving, and Receiving: and therefore we marvel so much the more, that you so unskilfully would abuse it. For as Christ offereth his Body Spiritually to our Faith, and Spirit: even so Spiritually by our Faith, and Spirit we receive it. And where ye say. We take Christ's Body into our Mouths, and Bodies, as having forgotten that Christ saith, The words, that I have spoken, be Spirit, and Life, S. Augustine would soon have removed you from this gross error. For thus he saith unto you, Quid paras Dentem, & Ventrem? Crede: & manducasti: What preparest thou thy Tooth, and thy Belly? (This eating is Spiritual). Believe (in Christ) and thou haste eaten.  
S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. in Lucam, Li. 6. Ca 8.  Fide tangitur Christus: Fide videtur. Non tangitur Corpore: non oculis comprehenditur: By Faith Christ is touched: By Faith he is seen. He is not touched with Body: He is not seen with eye.  
Likewise saith Gregorius Nyssenus S. Basiles Brother, 
Gregor. Nyssen. De Creatione Hominis, Cap. 20  Ego aliam Escam agnosco, quae Similitudinem quandam proportionis escae huis corporis gerat: Cuius voluptas atque suavitas ad animum solummodò transeat: I know an other kind of Meat, bearing the Likeness, and resemblance of our bodily Meat (for that this inwardly feedeth the mind, as the other outwardly feedeth the body) The pleasure, and sweetness whereof (goeth not into the Mouth, or Belly, but) passeth only into the soul. Thus we understand ourselves, M. harding: and deceive not, as you say, the Souls, that Christ hath bought. God foregéeve you, and others, that so have done, that the Blood of many be not required at your hands.  
Your error, ye say, in making the Presence of Christ in Baptism like to his Presence in the Supper, is too gross. Here is one error more, than any of the Learned Catholic Fathers ever noted. S. Chrysostom saith, In the Sacrament of Baptism we are made Flesh of Christ's Flesh, 
Chryso. in Epist. ad Ephe. Hom. 20 Bernard. Super Missus est. Hom. 3 Leo in Sermon. de 4. Feria. Ca 1.  and Bone of his Bones. S. bernard saith, Lavemur in Sanguine eius: Let us be washed in his Blood. Leo saith, Christi Sanguine rigaris, quando in Mortem ipsius Baptizaris: Thou art washed in the Blood of Christ, when thou art baptized in his Death.  
By these few it may appear, that Christ is Present at the Sacrament of Baptism, even as he is Present at the Holy Supper: unless ye will say, we may be made Flesh of Christ's Flesh: and be washed in his Blood: and be partakers of him: and have him Present, without his Presence. Therefore Chrysostom, when he hath spoken vehemently of the Sacrament of the Supper, he concludeth thus, Sic & in Baptismo, Even so is it also in the Sacrament of Baptism. The Body of Christ is likewise Present in them both. And for that cause Beda saith, 
Beda in 1. Cor. ●●  Nulli est aliquatenus ambigendum, tunc unumquenque Fidelium Corporis Sanguinisque Dominici participem fieri, quando in Baptismate Membrum Christi efficitur: Noman may doubt, but every faithful man is then made partaker of the Body and Blood of Christ, 
Spiritual eating.  when in Baptism he is made the Member of Christ. As for your Real, and fleshly Presence, it hath been often talked of on your part, but never proved.  
We say, We touch not christes Body with our Mouth, or teeth. What, say you, be ye used to swallow down whole morsels? Such childish, and wanton talk, M. harding, specially in the debating of matters of Religion, would better become some lighter person. We know, that, as S. Augustine saith, Gratia Christi non Consumitur morsibus: 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 27. Augu. in johan. Tracta. 25.  The Grace of Christ is not Consumed by moreselles. Ye might have made the like answer to S. Augustine: For he saith to you, as I have alleged him before, What preparest thou thy Tooth, and thy Belly? O M. harding, the eating of the Body of Christ, is a work Spiritual, and needeth neither brusinge of tooth: nor swallowing of throat: nor help of the outward, and bodily mouth. If ye know thus much, why do you dissemble it? If ye know it not, ye come too rathe, to speak of these things.  
S. Basile saith, 
Basili in Psal. 33. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Basili in eund. Psalmum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Cyprian. De Coena Domini. Augu in Psal. 48 Augu in johan. Tracta 26. 4. Senten. Dist. 10 Secundum hos. Chryso. in 1. Cor. Homil. 24.  Est Spirituale Os Interioris Hominis, quod nutritur recipiens Verbum vitae, quod Verbum est Panis qui descendit de Coelo: There is a Spiritual Mouth of the Inner man, which is nourished by receiving (Christ) the Word of Life, which is the Bread that came from Heaven. Again he saith, Gustare, & vide●e, quòd suavis est Dominus. Saepe obseruavimus, vires animi habere nomina ab aliqua similitudine Membrorum Corporis. Quoniam ergo Dominus noster est Verus Panis, & eius Caro est Verus Cibus, necesse est, eam voluptatem, quae ex illius Panis delectatione affertur, in nobis per gustum existere Spiritualem: Taste ye, and see, that our Lord is groceous. We have oftentimes marked, that the Powers of the mind have their names, from some likeness of the parts of the Body. Therefore seeing our Lord is Bread in deed, and his Flesh is Verily Meat, it cannot be chosen, but the pleasure, and sweetness of that Bread must be wrought in us (not by our bodily mouth, but) by the Spiritual taste of the soul.  
S. Cyprian saith, Esus Carnis eius, quaedam est aviditas, & quoddam desiderium manendi in eo: The Eating of that Flesh, is a certain greediness, and a certain desire to dwell in him. S. Augustine saith, Ipse est Panis Cordis nostri, Christ is the Bread (not of our Belly, but) of our Heart. And again, Intus Esuri, Intus siti: Hunger thou within: thirst thou within. Likewise again he saith, vide●e, Fratres, Panem Coelestem: Spirituali o'er manducate: O my Brethren, behold this Heavenly Bread: Eat it with the Spiritual, or Inner Mouth of the Mind.  
Thus are we taught to eat that Spiritual Meat, without chewing, or swallowing, or use, or office of the bodily Mouth. Therefore S. Augustine saith, Non manducans, manducat: & manducans, non manducat: He that eateth not, eateth: and he that eateth, eateth not.  
But Chrysostom saith, Quod omnium Maximum est, atque Praecipuum, in terra non conspicaris tantùm, sed etiam tangis: nec tangis tantùm, sed etiam comedis: The greatest, and worthiest thing that is, thou dost not only behold in the Earth, but also touchest it: Neither dooste thou only touch it, but also catest it. Here, I beseech you, M. harding, dissemble no l●nger: but speak plainly. How do you behold the Body of Christ in the Sacrament? With what senses? With what eyes do you see it? If ye say, with your bodily eyes, why say you, Christ's Body is there Invisible, covered with Accidents, and cannot be seen? If ye say, (as it is in deed) that ye see the same Body only with the Spiritual eyes of your Mind. than ye allege Chrysostom directly, and plainly against yourself.  
But S. Augustine saith, Habet Fides oculos suos, Faith hath her eyes, to see withal. 
August. Epist. 84. Bernard. Meditation. Cap. 6.  And S. bernard saith, Visio animae, intellectus est: The seeing of the Soul, is understanding. With these eyes we see Christ, that is to say, we understand Christ, or believe in Christ. S. Augustine saith, Velamen positum erat contra faciem eorum, 
judas.  ne viderent Christum in Scriptures: 
Augu. in Euaengelium secund. Lucam Serm. 49 Chry●osto. in Genesim, Homil. 10.  There was a vele laid over their face, that they should not see Christ in the scriptures.  
Chrysostom saith, Non tantum praestare possunt Corporales oculi, qui visibilia cernunt, quantum oculi piritus, qui ea, quae non videntur, néque subsistunt, videre possunt: These bodily eyes, that see things visible, cannot do so much, as the eyes of the Spirit. For these eyes are able to see the things, that be not seen, and have no being. Likewise again he saith, 
Chryso. De Verb. isaiah. Vidi Domi. Homil. 3.  Oculi animi, etiamsi Parietes, etiami moenia, etiamsi montium moles, etiami coelorum Corpora compererint obstantia, omnia facilè praetercurrunt: The eyes of the mind, notwithstanding they find Walls, or Mountains, or the Bodies of the Heavens to stand against them, yet will they easily pass through them al. With these eyes, saith Chrysostom, we see that most worthy, 
Chryso. in Marcum Homil. 6. Hierony. in Amos. Lib 3. Ca 9 Ambros. in Oratione▪ De Fide Resurrectionis.  and most glorious Body of Christ. Therefore he saith, Credamus, & videmus Praesentem jesum: Let us believe: and we see jesus Present before us. Likewise S. Jerome saith, Est intelligentia Spiritualis, qua Christus cernitur: There is a Spiritual understanding, wherewith Christ is seen. Otherwise, S. Ambrose saith, Christum nunc secundum veritatem videre non possumus: As now, according to the Truth, (with bodily sight) we cannot see Christ.  
Now, as the Body of Christ is seen, so is it touched: and, as it is touched, so is it Eaten. But it is not seen with Bodily eyes: It is not touched with bodily fingers: 
Ambros in Lucam, Li. 6. Ca 8.  For S. Ambrose saith, Fide tangitur Christus: Fide Christus videtur: By Faith Christ is touched: By Faith Christ is seen: Therefore the Body of Christ is not Eaten with the bodily mouth, but only by Faith, which is the Spiritual mouth of the Soul.  
judas, ye say, who had but a mean Faith, because he received the Sacrament, received Him also. O, how much is poor judas beholden to these men? Christ calleth him the Child of Perdition: 
johan. 6. johan. 13.  S. john saith, The Devil was entered into him. Again Christ saith, He was a Devil. Therefore this Mean Faith, that you allow him, must needs be a very little pretty Faith: even such a Faith as ye might well allow the Devil.  
Yet with the same Mean Faith, ye say, receiving the Sacrament, he received Christ also. first it is not well and thoroughly agreed upon, that judas received the Sacrament, or was present at all at the last Supper. S. Hilary saith plainly, He was gone forth about his wicked purpose, 
Hilar. in Matth. Canon. 30.  and received it not. But be it, that S. Hilary were deceived, and that judas received the Sacrament. Yet, as it is said before, Christ's Body is one thing: and the Sacrament of Christ's Body is an other thing. S. Augustine saith, Discipuli manducabant Panem Dominum: judas Panem Domini, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 59  contra Dominum: The Disciples did eat the Bread, which is the Lord: But Judas did eat (not the Lord, but) the (Sacrament, which is the) Bread of the Lord, 
Augu. in Psal. 3.  against the Lord. And yet in plainer sort he saith, Christus adhibui● judam ad Conuivium, in quo Corporis, & Sanguinis sui Figuram Discipulis suis Commendavit, & tradidit: Christ admitted Judas unto his Table, whereat he gave, and delivered unto his Disciples a Figure of his Body. Again S. Augustine saith, as in the person of Christ, 
Augu. De Civita. Li. 21. Cap. 25.  Qui in me non manet, & in quo ego non manco, ne se dicat, aut existimet manducare Corpus meum, aut Sanguinem meum bibere: He that abideth not in me, and I in him, let him not say, or think, that he either eateth my Body, or drinketh my Blood.  
The objection that ye make of the Resurrection of our bodies, is light, and vain, and to small purpose. For if noman shall have part in the Resurrection, but only they that have received the Sacrament of Christ's Body, then are all the Holy Fathers, patriarchs, and Prophets of the Old Testament, Abraham, Isaac, jacob, Moses, Aaron, and such others: then are infinite numbers of Christian Children: 
promiss made to Faith.  then are many Godly Martyrs, which, being baptized in the Blood of Christ, were taken out of this life, before they could receive the Sacrament, utterly excluded for ever from all hope of Resurrection. But Christ, when he spoke these Words, meant not the recivinge of the Sacrament, but the Spiritual eating of his Very Body, and the Spiritual Drinking of his Very Blood: Whereof he is made partaker unto Resurrection, and Life everlasting, who so ever believeth in the Death of Christ. And therefore S. Basile saith of the Sacrament of Baptism, 
Basilius, Des ancto Baptismate. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Baptisma est vis, & efficacia ad Resurrectionem: Baptism is a Power, and a strength unto Resurrection. But hereof we shall have occasion offered to say more hereafter.  
Further, How can ye assure yourselves, say you, that your Faith receiveth the Body of Christ, Which was never promised to your Faith? By the way, I beseech you, M. harding, when, or where was Christ's Body ever promised to your Mouth? Verily Christ promised his Body to he received by Faith, and by Faith Only, and none otherwise. 
johan. 6.  For thus he saith, Ego sum Panis ille Vitae: qui venit ad me, non esurier: & qui credit in me, non sitiet unquam: I am that Bread of Life: He that cometh unto me, shall never hunger: and he that Believeth in me, shall never thirst. Here have you, M. harding, a plain promiss made unto our Faith. But of your Mouth, we hear nothing. If you have aught to show out of the Scriptures, Doctors, or Councils, let it appear, & that in plain words, without colour. Otherwise, if ye cavil in words, we must say, ye have nothing. Therefore the Ancient Father Origen saith, Idcircò dicitur Panis vitae, ut habeat Gustus Animae, quod deguster: 
Origen. in Cantica, Homil. 2.  Therefore is Christ called the Bread of Life, that (our Faith which is) the Taste of our soul, may hove, what to taste.  
Clemens Alexandrinus saith, 
Clemens in Pedagogy, Lib. 1. Cap. 6.  Comedite Carnes meas, & Bibite Sanguinem meum: evidenter Fidei, & Promissionis, quod est Esculentum, & Poculentum dicens allegoricè: Eat my Flesh, and Drink my Blood: Meaning hereby under an Allegory, or, by way of a Figure, the Meat, and Drink, that is of (our) Faith, and (his) promiss.  
Tertullian saith, 
Tertullian. De Resurrectione Carnis.  Eundem Sermonem Christus etiam Carnem suam dixit: quia Sermo Caro factus est. Proinde in causa vitae recipien dus: Devorandus auditu: Ruminandus intellectu: & Fide Digerendus est: The same Word, Christ called his Flesh: For the Word was made Flesh. Therefore he must be received in cause of Life: He must be Devoured by hearing: He must be chewed by understanding: He must be Digested by Faith.  
S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. De Coena Domini. Augu. in johan. Tracta. 26. Augu. De Verb. Apostol. Serm. 2.  Quod est esca Carni, hoc est Animae Fides: As Meat is to the Flesh, so is Faith unto the Soul. S. Augustine saith, Credere in eum, hoc est, Manducare: Illud Eibere, quid est, nisi vivere? To Believe in him, is to Eat him. That Drinking of him, what is it else, but to live by him?  
I trust, M. harding, it may appear hereby, there is somme promiss made hereof unto our Faith. Now show you as evident promiss made to your Mouth, and Belly: and then your Reader happily will believe you.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 2.  
And therefore in celebrating these Mysteries, the People are to good purpose exhorted, before they come to receive the Holy Communion, to lift up their Hearts, and to direct their minds to Heaven ward: because he is there, by whom we must be fed, and live.  

M. harding.  
I pray you, 
Sursum Corda.  Which these Mysteries mean ye? Those that ye have in your new communion, or those that we have at the altar of God in the Catholic Church of Christ? If ye mean your own new devised toy, thereof ye cannot bring any sufficient reason against the Church, pardy, which condemneth the same. If ye mean the Holy Mysteries of the Catholic Church, ye misreport the matter. For by that exhortation, ye speak of, 
* Untruth. Here M. harding misreporteth his own Mass-book.  the people are not prepared to receive the Communion only, nor chiefly: but to dispose themselves accordingly and as it becometh them to pray: for to that end be these words, Sursum corda, up with your hearts, pronounced by the Priest in the Preface before prayer. Read S. Cyprian in Sermone 6. De Oratione Dominica. And ye shall find him to refer the whole to prayer. But what if we admit your words, refusing your Heretical meaning? We grant, the people are to good purpose so exhorted, as ye say, and that he is in Heaven, whose flesh we feed on in this Sacrament, thereby to attain to life everlasting. What conclude ye of this? Ergo he is not here? For at that mark ye shoot, every man may see. Here we tell you, that your Rhetoric is better stuff, 
A foolish argument. In Epist. ad Heb. Homil. 17. Christ is both in Heaven and also here in the Sacrament.  than your Logic: for your argument is foolish. With the one ye may lead the simple perhaps, with the other ye move the Learned to laugh at you. For Christ is in Heaven, and also here, as Chrysostom saith, Et hic plenus existens, & illic plenus, unum Corpus. 
* Christ is in Heaven, by the Substance of his Body: & here by working, or by Grace.  He is here fully, and there fully, one Body. These two propositions, Christ is in Heaven, and Christ is here, may well stand together, without iuttinge the one the other out of place. He is there at the right hand of the Father visibly, he is here under the Forms of Bread and Wine, invisibly: there in glory, here in Mystery▪ yet as truly and fully here, as there, concerning his 
‡ Untruth. For Chrysostom never, neither written so, nor meant so.  Substance, as Chrysostom saith. Ye proceed forth, and say.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It may become you, M. harding, as well to call the reverend Ministration of Christ's Holy Mysteries, a Toy, as to call the Gospel of Christ, error, and Heresy. So likewise Libanius the Heathen, although a man, I trow, not of your Profession, said sommetime, that all the Books, either of the Scriptures, or of any the Christian Fathers, 
Socrat. li. 3. ca 22 Christianorum Libri ridiculi▪ & nugaces, si cum Iuliani Libris conferantur.  in comparison of julianus the Renegates Books, were toys. and trifles. How be it, Our Toys be the same Toys, that were once used, and allowed universally throughout the Catholic Church of God, before your Mass was ever known, and were then thought no Toys.  
touching these words, Sursum corda, Lift up your Hearts, ye say they were applied in old times unto prayer, and not only, or chiefly to the Ministration of the Sacrament: and that, as ye seem to say, by the witness of S. Cyprian. As for these empty Words, Only, or Chiefly, ye use them only as a false light, to blind your Reader. For in our Apology ye found them not.  
touching S. Cyprian, ye thought it best to dissemble, and to shift his words, and to command him to silence. For thus he saith, even directly against the whole practice of your Church: 
Cyprian. in Oratione Domini.  Sacerdos ante Orationem, Praefatione praemissa, parat Fratrum mentes, dicendo, Sursum Corda: ut dum respondet Plebs, Habemus ad Dominum, admoneatur, nihil aliud se, quàm Dominum, cogitare debere: Before Prayer, the Priest with a Preface prepareth the hearts of the Brethren, saying unto them, Lift up your Hearts: that, when the People answereth, We lift them up unto the Lord, they may be put in mind, to think of nothing else, but of the Lord. Where is this order, M. harding, where is this Ecclesiastical Tradition now become? Throughout your whole Territory of Rome, in what Church, in what Chaple is it kept? Where doth your people answer the Priest at the Common Prayer? Or where doth the people understand, either the meaning of the Sacraments, or any thing, that is pronounced by the Priest? Or why are you so unadvised, to allege manifest Authorities against yourself?  
Ye say, 
Sursum Corda.  the people was taught by these words, not to consider, what was meant only by the Sacraments, but to give attendance unto the Prayer: Wherein your own mass-book is cas●ly able to control you. And in the Greek Liturgies, not before any other public Prayer, but immediately before the Holy Ministration, the Priest saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Let us lift up our Hearts. And Chrysostom saith, 
Chryso. ex varijs locis in Matthae. Homil. 9 Augu. in Psal. 39  Clamamus in conspectu Sacrificij, Sursum Corda: We cry aloud in the sight of the Oblation, Lift up your Hearts. S. Augustine saith, Sursum Corda Habeamus. Si Resurrexistis cum Christo, dicit Fidelibus Corpus, & Sanguinem Domini accipientibus, dicit, Si Resurrexistis cum Christo, quae sursum sunt, sapite: ubi Christus est in Dextra Dei sedens: Quae sursum sunt, quaerite: non quae super terram: Let us lift up our Hearts. If ye be risen again with Christ, he saith unto the faithful, he saith unto them, that receive the Body, and Blood of our Lord, If ye be risen again with Christ, saver those things, that are above: where Christ is all the right Hand of God: Seek for the things that be above: not for the things, that be in Earth. 
August. De Bono Perseveran Li. 2 Cap. 13. August. De Bono Viduitatis, Cap 16. Alexander Halen. 4. Quaest. 37. mem. 1. Arti. 3. Par. 1. Cap. 9  Again he saith, In Sacramentis Fidelium dicitur, ut Sursum Corda habeamus ad Dominum: At the Ministration of the Sacraments of the Faithful, it is said, Let us lift up our Hearts unto the Lord.  
Likewise again, Inter Sacra Mysteria Cor habere Sursum iubemur In the time of the Holy Mysteries, we are commanded to Lift up our Hearts.  
But what need we to rehearse the Ancient Fathers? Your own late New Doctors have said the like. And to leave the rest, your own Manipulus Curatorum, that is to say, the Ordinary, and Direction of all your whole clergy. saith thus, Sacerdos ante Canonem dicit, Sursum Corda: Quasi dicat, quòd volens sumere istud Sacramentum, debet habere Cor suum elevatum ad Deum: Before the Canon the Priest saith, Lift up your Hearts: As if he would say, who so will receive this Sacrament, aught to have his Heart lifted up unto God.  
These words be plain, and can in no wise be denied. It were wisdom, M. harding, in such cases, to avouch no more, than ye know. Otherwise your words will go for Toys.  
How be it, the matter being granted, that these words pertain to the Holy Ministration, yet if we would reason thus, Christ's Body is in Heaven: Therefore it is not Really, and fleshly in the Sacrament, Ye say, We should make a foolish Argument: Our Rhetoric is better stuff, than our Logic.  
This Argument, M. harding, is taken of the Nature of Christ's Humanity: which being the Very Natural Body of a Man, by the judgement of the Ancient Fathers, must needs be in one only place at one time, and can reach no further. For otherwise it were not a Very Natural Man's Body. Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Prima. Augusti. Contra Faustum, Lib. 20. Cap. 11.  as he is alleged by Gratian, Corpus Domini, in quo Resurrexit, in uno loco esse oportet: The Body of our Lord, wherein he rose again, must needs be in one Place. Like wise again he saith, Christus secundum Praesentiam Corporalem, simul & in Sole, & in Luna, & in Cruce esse non potuit: touching Bodily presence, Christ could not be in the Soon, in the Moon, and upon the Cross, all at once.  
And again, 
Augu. Epist. 221.  Christus ubique est, Virtute, non Opere: Divinitate, non Carne: Christ is every where, By his Power, not in deed: By his Godhead, not by his Flesh.  
S. Cyril saith, 
cyril. in johan. Lib. 9 Cap. 22.  Christus cum Discipulis suis, etfis non Corpore, tamen Virtute Deitatis semper futurus est: Christ will evermore be with his Disciples, by the Power of his Divinity: although not in his Body. Therefore, to conclude, S. Augustine saith, Videre Ascendentem: 
Aug● in Psal. 46  Credit in Absentem: Sperate venientem: Tamen per Misericordiam occultam etiam sentire Praesentem: Behold Christ ascending: believe in Christ being absent: Trust in Christ, that shall come again, And yet by his privy mercy feel him Present. 
Christ's Body in one place.  Believe, saith S. Augustine, in Christ, Being now absent, and not here.  
Thus the Ancient Catholic Fathers were bold reverently to reason of Christ's Humanity: yet was not M. harding yet borne, that should so bitterly charge them with Foolish Arguments. 
Ruffini in Hieronym. Inuectiva Prior.  Nay, rather Ruffinus saith, Stulta adinuentio Calumniae est, Corpus Humanum aliud esse putare, quàm Carnem: It is but a Foolish finding of a Cavil, to say, that the Body of a Man is any other thing, than Flesh.  
But Chrysostom saith, Christ is whole here, and whole there But. Chrysostom in the same place many ways expoundeth his whole meaning: For thus he saith, 
Chrysos. in Epist. ad Hebr. Hom. 17  if it would have pleased M. harding to have seen his words, Offerimus quidem, sed ad Recordationem facientes Mortis eius: Hoc Sacrificium Exemplar illius est: Hoc, quod nos facimus, in Commemorationem fit eius, quod factum est. Idipsum semper offerimus: Magis autem Recordationem Sacrificij Operamur: We offer in deed: But in Remembrance of his Death. This Sacrifice is a Token, or Figure of that Sacrifice. The thing, that we do, is son in Remembrance of that thing, that was done before. We offer alway the same thing (that Christ offered). Nay rather, we work the Remembrance of that Sacrifice (that Christ offered). Notwithstanding, to spare time, 
Artic. 6. Divi. 8.  this Objection is answered more at large in my Former Reply to M. harding.  
But, whereas M. harding saith, Christ's Body is as fully here, as it is in Heaven, concerning the Substance, as Chrysostom saith, He would, under the name of that Holy Father, wilfully warrant a great Untruth. For Chrysostom saith not, Christ's Body is Present in Substance: He hath no such words: He saith not so: He saith the contrary: as namely, where he saith, as it is before alleged, The very Body of Christ itself is not in the Holy vessels: 
Chrysostom in Matth. Homil. 11.  but the Mystene, or Sacrament thereof is there contained.  
touching these words, unless ye can devise a New Grammare, & make Sursum to be Deorsum, & contrary to Nature, turn all things upsidedown, & thus make your Construction, Sursum Corda, Look downward, they will but meanly make for your purpose. S. Jerome saith, Secundus Aduentus salvatoris in Gloria demonstrandus est. Stultum est ergo illum in parvo, aut abscondito loco quaerere, 
Hieron. in Matthae. Cap. 14.  qui totius est Mundi Lumen: The second Coming of our saviour shallbe declared in Glory. seeing therefore he is the Light of the World, it is great folly, to seek him in any small Corner.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 3.  
Cyrillus saith, when we come to receive these Mysteries, all gross imaginations must quite be baunished.  

M. harding.  
Why do ye not by your quotation direct us to the place, where this saying of cyril may be found? Know ye not that we have good cause to suspect your dealing? Do we not almost everywhere find you in manifest lies? 
This is a quaint east of M hardings Copia Verberun.  If ye mean plain Truth, why deal ye not plainly? Christ's saying must needs be true, 
Cyril guilefully alleged. johan. 5. The place of Cyril turned upon the Defenders.  Who evil doth, hateth light. Because ye knew the place maketh directly against you, and subverteth your whole sacramentary Doctrine, ye thought it good policy, to take a word or two for your purpose, and leave the rest, trusting it should not be espied. Wherein ye do like the Scorpion, that casteth forth his venom with the spirte of his tail, and forthwith creepeth away into a hole. Would God as ye abuse the name of Cyril, so ye would stand to the Truth by him even in that place, which ye allege, Substantially declared Who listeth to see the place, let him read cyril's answer to Theodori●es reprehension of the eleventh anathematisme against Nestorius. There he showeth, that Nestorius destroyed the mean of the Union of be the Natures in Christ, to th'intent the Body of Christ might be found but a common body as men have, and not a Body propre of the Word, 
The Heresy of Nestorius.  having power to vivificate, or quicken all things. 
* Nestorius' Heresy stood neither in Transubstantiation, nor in Real Presence.  For Nestorius' divided Christ, and taught the word to be the Son of God, not of Mary: and Christ Man the Son of Mary only, as Man: and dissolved the whole Mystery of the incarnation so, as Christ should be an other certain Son beside the Word. And because the 
‡ The meaning is this: We cannot be fed, or nourished by Christ, as he is in his Divine Nature: but only by the Faith that we have in his Flesh Crucified.  Nature of Godhead cannot be eaten, thereof he talked vainly and profanely, that in the Sacrament we eat Flesh, and not Godhead. For confutation of this detestable Heresy, Cyril bringeth him to the consideration of the Blessed Sacrament, and opposeth him, whether he thought, that in the Sacrament Christ being (by his Doctrine) Man besides God the Word, we eat a man, as one would say, after such sort, as the Barbarous people of the new found Land America, called Cannibals, eat one another. But because that were absurd, and beastly, Cyril saith that we eat not a common Body, though the Nature of Godhead 
‡ Untruth guilefully enclosed: For neither the Flesh of Christ in ꝓ per speech can be Eaten.  properly be not eaten, but that Body which is Proprium verbi, the proper Body of the Word, which quickenethe all things, by receiving whereof 
* We receive whole Christ, God, and Man, not with our Mouth, but by Faith, & Spirit.  we receive whole Christ, God, and man. And here Cyril layeth to Nestorius' charge, as though he drove men to gross cogitations touching this Sacrament. 
The gross imaginations that Cyril would to be eschewed in receiving the blessed Sacrament.  The words be these: Num hominis comestionem, etc. What dost thou pronounce this our Sacrament to be eating of a man (the Greek is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) and driveste unreverently the Mind of them as have believed unto gross imaginations, and attemptest with humane imaginations, to treat of those things, which are attained by an only, pure, and exquisite Faith? These be the gross imaginations, which cyril would to be banished at the receiving of this Sacrament, and that we eat the Body of Christ, not as being a common Body, as the Body of every mortal Man: And though the Nature of Godhead be not eaten, that yet we eat that Body, which is the proper Body of the Word, that quickeneth all thing. Now as 
‡ A fond suasion. For the grossness hereof stood not in Christ's Body, but in the manner of eating.  we have not that gross imagination of eating a common Body, (which of the Greeks, by a term plainer to the learned, is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) when we receive this Sacrament: so it is evident by Cyril, that in the same 
* With Our mouth we receive Only the Sacrament: With our Faith we Eat the Body of Christ Incarnate, Verily, and in deed.  we eat verily, and in deed the Body of Christ, the Word incarnate. For otherwise his sayings had not made ought against the Heresy of Nestorius. And thus receiving Christ's Body in the Sacrament, we receive it truly, and with Faith, and without gross imaginations. All this weighed, how prove ye now, Christ to be so lodged in Heaven, that notwithstanding his own Word, 
‡ O fond grossness. We lack not Christ: Although we have him not fleshly Present in our mouths.  we lack him here in these Holy Mysteries? But let us consider your other Authorities.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
touching the quotation in the margin, escaped in the Print, that fault, I trust, shall be amended. But how will you amend your fault, M. harding, so often alleging such things, as your Conscience knoweth to be most Untrue? I will not wander far, to put you in mind. In the last line of your Former Division, ye avouch that upon Chrysostom, that you know, Chrysostom never, neither Wrote, nor meant. As for the manifest Lies, wherewith ye so sharply, and so often charge us, though there were some Truth in your challenge, as there is none, yet might not we therein in any wise compare with you. Concerning the affiance, ye would seem to have in these words of Cyril, ye thought it good skill, thus to crow out with some courage, before the fight.  
In what sense the Godhead may be eaten, or not eaten, I have already said so much, as then seemed sufficient, in my Former Reply to your first Answer. The meaning of Cyrillus is this, We cannot, neither know, nor believe on, nor feed upon the Divine Majesty of God, as it is pure, and Simple, and in itself: But all our knowledge, and all our Faith, which is our Spiritual feeding, and Life, is derived unto us through jesus Christ, and standeth only, and wholly in this, that the Son of God hath taken the Very Nature, and Substance of our Corruptible Flesh, and joined the same in One person unto his Godhead. 
Nestorius. Hila. in Psal. 14●.  Therefore S. Hilary saith, Cognitus fieri Deus hominibus, nisi assumpto Homine, non potuit. Quia Incognoscibilem cognoscere, nisi per Naturam nostram, Natura nostra non potuit: God could not be known unto men, but by the receiving of Man unto him. For God that sourmounteth all knowledge, Our Nature could not know, 
August. Confessionun. Li. 7. Ca 18  but by the mean of our Nature. So saith S. Augustine, Quaerebam viam comparandi roboris, quod effect idoneum ad fruendum te: Nec inveni, donec amplecterer Mediatorem Dei, & Hominum, Hominem Christum jesum: I sought a way to get strength, whereby I might be able to enjoy thee: But I found it not, before that I embraced jesus Christ, which is the mediator between God, and Man. Again he saith, Christus Cibum, cui capiendo invalidus eram, miscuit Carni: Quoniam Verbum Caro factum est, ut infantiae nostrae lactesceret Sapientia tua: Christ tempered, and mingled his Meat (which is his Godhead) with his Flesh: which Godhead otherwise I was not able to receive. For the Word was made Flesh, that thy wisdom (o God) might become milk unto our chilhoode.  
Nestorius' Heresy stood not either in Transubstantiation, or in Real Presence: but only in the dissolution of the person of Christ, in that he divided the Manhed of Christ from his Godhead: and so concluded in the end, that Christ was only a bare Natural Man, in all respects, as others were. If it had been so, then could we not have been saved by the Death of Christ, no more then by the Death of Codrus, and Decius: who being nothing else, but Very Natural men, 
Hieronym. ad Ephesios', Cap. 1.  gave themselves to Death for the safety of their Countries. Neither could we believe in Christ Crucified: that is to say, we could not Eat, nor Feed upon the Body of Christ, 
Cyrillus ad Reginas: Ex Epist. ad Hebrae.  or have life by it. Cyrillus saith: Quomodo purgabi● nos ab operibus mortuis? Sanguis enim Communis Hominis nihil habet maius, quàm Sanguis Tauri, aut Hirci: How then shall Christ deliver us from deadly works? For the Blood of Common Man hath nothing more, (to work Salvation) than the Blood of a bull, or a goat. And therefore the same S. Cyril imagineth Christ to say thus: 
cyril. in johan. Lib. 4. Cap. 18.  Mortalem Carnem assumpsi: Sed quia Naturaliter Vita existens habito in ea, totam ad meam Vitam reformauli I have taken Mortal Flesh upon myself. But, for as much, as I Naturally being Life, dwell in the same. I have reformed that whole Flesh unto my Life. 
Leo De Passion▪ Domi. Sermo. 13.  So saith Leo, Verus venerator Dominicae Passionis, sic Crucifixum jesum Oculis Cordis aspiciat, ut illius Carnem suam esse cognoscat: Let the true worshipper of our lords Passion so behold Christ Crucified with the eyes of his heart, that he may understand, that the Flesh of Christ is his Flesh. But hereof, I trow, M. harding will move no great question.  
Further it is fully Confessed of either side, that we by Faith Eat the very Body of Christ, not as the Body of any other Common Natural Man, but as the Body of the Son of God: and, that the same Body so eaten by Faith, and none otherwise, giveth Life. But, how that Body may be Eaten, therein standeth the whole doubt. Hereunto S. Cyril answereth thus: Num Hominis Comestionem hoc nostrum Sacramentum pronuntias? 
cyril. Anathematismo. 11.  Et irreligiosè ad Crassas Cogitationes vrges mentem corum, qui crediderunt? Et attentas humanis rationibus tractare ea, quae Sola, Pura, & Exquisita Fide accipiuntur? dost thou say, that our Sacrament is the Eating of a Man? And dost thou unreverently, and without Religion force the mind of the Faithful unto gross, (and fleshly) cogitations? And goest thou about with Natural imaginations to deal those things, that be received by Only, Pure, and perfit Faith? These words seem plain, & free from quarrel. Yet hereof may grow an other doubt. For, by M. harding judgement, to think, that Christ's Body is to be received into our Mouths, and Bellies, is no manner Gross Imagination. But we say, as Cyrillus saith, to avoid all such uncomely, & fleshly Vanities, Christ's Body, and Blood, 
Spiritual eating.  are a Spiritual food, and must be received, not with Mouth, or Teeth, but with Only, Pure, and perfit Faith.  
Concerning M. hardings fantasy, Pope Nicolas under a Solemn Protestation would have us to say, 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Ego Berengarius.  Ego cord, & o'er profi●eor, non tantùm Sacramentum, sed etiam Corpus Christi in Veritate, sensualiter manibus Sacerdotum tractari, frangi, & dentibus Fidelium atteri: I profess with Harte, and Mouth, that not only the Sacrament, but also the Body of Christ itself in very Truth, and deed is sensibly touched, and broken with the priests hands, and torn with the Teeth of the Faithful. But this talk is so fond, and so utterly void of discretion, that the very Barbarous Gloze is feign to control it in this sort: Nisi sanè intelligas (ista) Verba Berengarij, in maiorem incides haeresim, quàm ipse habuit: unless thou wisely understand these Words of Berengarius, thou wilt fall into a greater Heresy, than ever he held any.  
S. Cyrils' words be plain, 
Sola, Pura, Exquisita Fide.  Sola▪ Pura, & exquisita Fide accipiuntur: These things be received (not by Mouth, but) by Only, Pure, and perfit Faith. Likewise again he saith, Initium, & Fundamentum in Sanctificationem, & justitiam, Christus est, 
cyril. in johan. Lib. 4. Cap. 39  per Fidem, scilicet, & non aliter. Hoc enim modo in nobis habitat: Christ is the Beginning, and foundation unto Holiness, and Righteousness: I mean by Faith, and none otherwise. For by Faith Christ dwelleth in us. So saith Clemens Alexandrinus, 
Clemens in Paedagogo, Lib. 2. Cap. 2.  Hoc est Bibere jesu Sanguinem, participem esse incorruptionis eius: This is the Drinking of the Blood of jesus, to be made partaker of his Immortality. Origen saith, Est ergo ipse vulneratus: Cuius nos Sanguinem bibimus, id est, 
Origen. in Numer. Homi. 16. Athana. in illud evangelii, Quicunque dixerit verbum.  Doctrinae eius verba suscipimus: He was woounded: whoes Blood we Drink, that is to say, the Words of whoes Doctrine we receive.  
But what is there so plain, as these words of Athanasius? Quot Hominibus suffecisset Corpus eius ad Cibun, ut universi Mundi alimonia fieret? Propterea Ascensionis suae in Coelum mentionem fecit, ut eos à corporali intellectu abstraheret: Unto how many men could Christ's Body have sufficed for meat, that he should be the Food of all the World? Therefore he made mention of his Ascension into Heaven: that he might withdraw them from corporal, and fleshly understanding.  
Here, M. harding, I beseech you, tell us by the way, when ye teach us, that Christ's Body is fleshly Present: that it is received into the Mouth: that it is chewed, and bruised with teeth: and that it passeth further into the belly, how do you withdraw our minds from Fleashely, and Corporal understanding? If this eating be Spiritual, what eating may be counted Corporal?  
Hereof S. Augustine saith thus, Cùm videritis Filium Hominis ascendentem, ubi erat priùs, 
Augustin. in johan. Tractat. 27.  Certè vel tunc videbitis, quòd non eo modo, quo putatis, erogat Corpus suum: Certè vel tunc intelligetis, quòd Gratia eius non consumitur morsibus: When ye shall see the Son of Man ascending up, where he was before. Then shall ye see, that he giveth not his Body (to be Eaten) in such sort, as you imagine: Then shall ye understand, that his Grace is not consumed by morsels. And therefore again he saith, 
August. De Verbis Domi. Secund. ●uc. Sermon. 33.  Nolite Pauces parare, sed Cor: Prepare not your jaws, but your Heart.  
This is the Very, True, Spiritual, and Only Eating of Christ's Body: and, what so ever fantasy M. harding hath devised besides, of his Mouth, & Teeth, is, as S. Cyril saith, a Vain, Vnreverente, Gross, and fleshly Imagination.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 4.  
The Council of Nice, as it is alleged by some in Greek, plainly forebiddeth us to be basely affectioned, or bend toward the Bread, and Wine, which are set before us.  

M. harding.  
As the former part of the sentence, which ye bring out of the Nicene Council, 
* Untruths two together. Read the Answer.  soundeth nothing against the Catholics, (for they also teach the same): 
* Untruths two together. Read the Answer.  so the later part is directly contrary to your Doctrine, which ye thought good to leave out, lest thereby ye should have marred your whole matter. Such nipping, 
A mark to know Heretics by. The words of the Nicene Council, which make plainly for the Catholic Doctrine touching the Sacrament of the Altar.  and rounding of sentences hath ever been taken for a mark to know Heretics by. Among wise men such practrise worthily bringeth you into suspicion of Untruth. The words of the Council truly reported be these: Let us not at the Divine Table basely behold the Bread and Cup set before us: but lifting up our mind, let us by Faith understand on that Holy Table to be laid the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the World, of Priests Sacrificed unbloodily. And receiving his precious Body, and Blood verily, let us believe these to be the pledges of our Resurrection. For in consideration hereof we take not much, but a little, that we may know, we receive not to filling (of the Body) but to Sanctimony. Take the end with the beginning, and what maketh this decree of that Holy Council for defence of your sacramentary Doctrine? And here, who be more basely affectioned and bend toward the things set on that Table, ye, that make them but Bread, and Wine, or we, that, after Consecration, believe under the forms of Bread, and Wine verily to be made Present the Body, and Blood of Christ? Whether is a base exercise, to feed on 
‡ Untruth▪ vile, and slanderous: We ee●e not upon ●ommon Brea●●, and Wine: We fe●de upon the Very Body, and Blood of Christ.  common Bread, and Wine, and to dwell in the judgement of the senses, or to eat the very Flesh of Christ, the Bread of Life, that came down from Heaven, to immortality of the Body, and Soul, to forsake the senses, and followeth understanding of 
* Your Faith, without God's Word, is no Faith.  Taithe? Well we agree with you, not to be over basely intent to the Bread, and Cup. But why do not ye perform that, as followeth there after your own allegation out of that Council? Why do ye not with those. 318. Holy Fathers, and with the whole Church of Christ understand by Faith on that Holy Table to be laid the Lamb of God, that taketh away the Sins of the World? Why do ye not recant your wicked Doctrine against the blessed Sacrifice of the Mass? Read the whole sentence, joining the end to the beginning. Say not all those Holy and Learned Fathers, the Lamb of God on this sacred Table (they mean the Altar) to be Sacrificed of the Priests unbloodily?  
Again why bring ye the Christian people from the Body of Christ whereby they are redeemed, to a 
‡ Untruth. For we teach ●either bare Bread, nor bare Figure: Read the Answer.  bare piece of Bread, 
All Tropes and Figures of the Sacramentaries be excluded by Verdict of the Nicene Council.  teaching it to be 
* Untruth. For the Learned Doctors, and Fathers used commonly the same Tropes, and Figures.  but the Figure of his Body? saith not this Council, that we receive the Precious Body, and Blood of our Lord 
‡ We receive Christ Verily, and in dee●e: although neither fleshly, nor with bodily mouth.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, verily, and in deed, 
* Untruth. For the Learned Doctors, and Fathers used commonly the same Tropes, and Figures.  whereby in deed all your tropes, and Figures be quite excluded? Again if these were but Bread, and Wine, as ye teach, would the Council say, that we take them not to satiety, but to Sanctimony and Holiness? What Holiness can we have of Bread, and Wine? What, Holiness obtained we not by eating of the Body of Christ, being the proper Body of the Word, or God the Words own Body, that hath Power to vivificate, and quicken all things? Thus we come within you, Defenders, as it were, and clasping with you, wring your 
‡ O brave Captain.  weapon out of your hands, and with the other end of it strick you down. As it is not hard to us by learning to overthrow you, so we beseech God to strike down the pride, 
Act. 9  and stubbornness of your hearts, as he did Paul, wherewith ye resist the manifest Truth.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We allege this place, although briefly, yet simply, and truly, and without any manner fraud, or guile. But if rounding, and clippinge of the Holy Fathers be the mark of an Heretic, as it is here avouched, then have we one mark more, whereby to know M. harding. For this is his ordinary usage, and practise of course.  
touching either the Beginning, or the End of this Decree, there is no cause, wherefore any Word therein written should of out part be dissembled. The Holy Fathers in that Council teach us, utterly to withdraw our eie● from the Bread, and Wine, being nothing else, but Creatures transitory, and corruptible: and by Faith to behold the Very Body of Christ, which is Represented in the Mysteries. To like purpose S. Augustine saith, as it is alleged before, Ea demùm est Miserabilis animae servitus, 
The Lamb laid upon the Table.  Signa pro Rebus accipere: 
August. De Doctrina Christiana, Lib. 3. Cap. 5.  & supra Creaturam Corpoream oculum Mentis ad hautiendum Aeternum Lumen levare non posse: This is the Miserable Bondage of the Soul, to take the Signs in steed of the things, that be Signified: and not to be able to lift up the eye of the Mind, above the Corporal Creature, to receive the Light everlasting. And therefore immediately before the Holy Ministration, the Priest saith unto us, as it is said before, Lift up your Hearts. In this sort the same Fathers speak of the Water of Baptism: 
Concil. Nicen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Baptisma nostrum Oculis Sensibilibus spectandum non est, sed oculis Intellectus. Vides Aquam? Cogita Vim, & potestatem Dei, quae in Aquis latet: Our Baptism may not be considered with the Sensible, or Bodily Eyes, but with the Inner Eyes of the Mind. Seest thou the Water? Think of the Might, and Power of God, that lieth Hidden in the Water. Thus, as in the One Sacrament they withdraw us from the Water, even so in the Other Sacrament they withdraw us from the Bread.  
But it followeth in the same Decree, Let us by Faith understand, on that Holy Table to be laid the Lamb of God, that taketh away the Sins of the World. If the Ancient Fathers, to the end to stir up, and to inflame the Hearts of the people, had not sometimes used vehement phrases, and extraordinary kinds of Speech, M. harding might many times spare his pen, and keep silence. But he doth the Father's great wrong, that presseth only their ●are words, & dissembleth their meaning. Gregory Nyssene S. Basiles Brother discreetly, and learnedly openeth this whole matter. Thus he writeth: 
Gregor. Nyssen. De Anima, Ca 11  Cùm in habitudine loci alicuius, vel negorij in loco existentis, intelligibilium aliquod extiterit, Abusiuè id ibi esse dicimus, propter operationem eius, quae ibi est, locum pro habitudine, & operatione accipientes. Cùm enim dicere deberemus, Ibi Operatur, dicimus, Ibi est: When any Spiritual thing is in the consideration of some place, or else in consideration of some matter being in a place, We say, the same Spiritual thing is there, by an Abuse, or by an Extraordinary use of speech: because of the effect of that Spiritual thing, that there is wrought: taking the place in steed of Consideration, of Working in the Place. For, where we should say, There it worketh, thus we say, There it is. Even so, where as these Fathers should have said, The Effects, or Graces, that we have by Christ's Body, are laid before us upon the Table, by Abuse of Speech they say, the Body of Christ is laid upon the Table. 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Species.  Likewise saith Gratiam. Quidam non improbabiliter exponunt, Carnis, & Sanguinis Veritatem, Ipsam ●orundem efficientiam, hoc est, Remissionem Peccatorum: Some men not without good reason, by the Truth of Christ's Flesh, and Blood, understand thee Effect, or woorkinge of the same, that is to say, the Remission of Sins.  
And as these Fathers say, Christ is Laid upon the Table, even so, by like phrase of speech, 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Quid sit.  S. Gregory saith, Christ is killed upon the Table: Christus iterum in hoc Mysterio moritur: Eius Caro in populi salutem patitur: Christ dieth again in this Mystery: His Flesh suffereth for the Salvation of the people. So saith Chrysostom, Vt in Coelo coelatur Deus, 
Chrys in Matth. Homil. 4.  sic in Scriptures absconditur. Non omnes intelligunt Deum Veritatis, positum in Scriptures: As God is covered in Heaven, so is he covered in the Scriptures. All men understand not God, that is laid in the Scriptures. So saith Athanasius, 
Athanas. De Interpreta. Psalm. Hieronym. De Vita Eremitica. Hieronym. ad Gaudentium.  Est etiam in Verbis Scripturarum Dominus: Our Lord is in the Words of the Scriptures. So saith S. Jerome, Supra nudam metuis humum ex esa ieiunijs membra collidere. Sed Dominus tecum jacet: Thou art a frayed to lay thy body, worn out with fasting, upon the bare ground. Yet the Lord lieth with thee. Again, Nudus, atque esuriens ante fores nostras Christus in paupere moritur: Christ naked, and hungry, lying before our gate, dieth in the poor.  
And, to leave other like sayings, and sentences of the Ancient Fathers, Pope Adrian saith in your late Council of Nice, 
The Lamb laid upon the Table.  In Scriptures Sanctarum imaginum Agnus Praecursoris digito ostensus depingitur: 
De Con. Dist 3. Sextam Sanctam.  In the Scriptures of the Holy Images, is painted the Lamb of God, that John baptist showed with his finger.  
These sayings must be qualified with a gentle Exposition: and may not be rack extremely to the sound, and rigour of the Letter. Chrysostom thus expoundeth these words of S. Paul to the Galathians: 
Chrysost. in Epist. ad Gala. Cap. 3.  Quibus Christus ante Oculos priùs depictus erat, in vobis Crucifixus. Atqui Christus non apud Galathas, sed Hierosolymis fuit Crucifixus. Quomodo igitur dicit, in vobis? Vt ostendat vim Fidei, quae potest etiam procul dissita cernere: indicans, quòd illi oculis Fidei, exactiùs cernerent, quàm nonnulli, qui praesentes adfuerant, eaque, quae gerebantur, conspexerant: Unto whom Christ was painted out, and Crucified among you before your Eyes. Yet was not Christ Crucified in Galathia, but at Jerusalem. How then saith S. Paul unto the Galathians, Christ was Crucified amongst you? His meaning was, to show the strength of Faith, which is able to see things, though they be far away: and that they by the Eyes of Faith saw the Death of Christ more plainly, and perfitly, than many, that were present at his Death, and saw those things that were done.  
Thus the Fathers in this Council said, Christ's Body is Laid forth upon the Communion Table, that is, not unto our bodily Eyes, or senses, but unto the eyes of our Faith: I mean, by way of a Mystery, or Sacrament: but not verily, or in deed. In this sense S. Augustine saith unto the people, Vos estis in Mensa: 
De Con. Dist. 2. Quia passus.  Vos estis in Calais: You are laid upon the Table: you are in the Cup. As the people is laid upon the Table, so is Christ's Body laid upon the Table: And as the People is in the Cup, so is Christ's Blood in the Cup. The people is there by way of a Mystery: even so is Christ's Body and Blood there by way of a Mystery, and none otherwise. Thus M. harding, we withdraw not the people of God, as ye untruly say, from Christ's Body to a piece of Bread: But rather we lead them, as the Ancient Fathers ever did, from the Creature of Bread, to the beholding, receiving, and eating of Christ's very Body, and Blood.  
In what sort, and sense Christ is now Vnbloudily Sacrificed by the Priest, for shortness sake, 
Arti. 17. Divi. 14  gentle Reader, I must refer thee unto my Former Reply to M. harding.  
How the Holy Mysteries be pledges of our Resurrection, it hath partly been said before, and partly shallbe said hereafter more at large.  
How we may receive the Body of Christ in deed, and verily, without either Transubstantiation, or Real Presence, I have both touched before in this Treaty, and also in my Former Reply. 
Artic. 4. Divi. 8.  Certainly S. Augustine saith, The receiving of Christ's Body in deed, and the receiving of the Sacrament, are sundry things. Thus he writeth, Ostendit Christus, quid sit, non Sacramentotenus, sed re vera Corpus Christi Manducare, 
August. De civit. Li. 21. Ca 21.  & eius Sanguinem Bibere: Christ showeth, what it is, to Eat his Body, and to Drink his Blood, not by way of Sacrament, but verily, and in deed. For the eating of the Sacrament with Mouth, and Tooth, is not the very True eating of Christ's Body: but a token, or Mystery of the same. S. Augustine saith, Qui Manducat Intus, non Foris: qui Manducat in cord, 
Augustin. in johan. Tractat. 26.  non qui premit Dente: He that Eateth Within, not he that Eateth Without: He that Eateth (Christ's Body) in his Heart, not he that bruiseth (the Sacrament) with his Tooth. Who so by Faith receiveth the Body of Christ, receiveth it Substantially, Really, Verily, and in deed: and dwelleth in Christ, and Christ in him. Thus is Christ's Body received, as these Holy Fathers say, not to the filling, or contentation of the Body, but unto the Holiness, and Sanctification of the mind.  
Thus ye come within us, M. harding, as ye say: and clospe with us: and overthrow us by Learning: and wring our weapon out of our hands: and with the other end thereof ye strike us down. 
Thraso in Lunucho.  Me thinketh, I hear one say, Denique metuebant Omnes iam me: If some Gnato stood by you, I trow, we should have a pretty play. But unsensible men are we, that feel none of these deadly blows. I will answer you, as S. Augustine sometime answered Pascentius the Arian Heretic, Facile est, ut quisque Augustinum vincat: 
August. ad Pascent. Epist. 174.  videris, utrùm Veritate, an Clamore: It is an easy matter to overcome Augustine: But see you whether it be by Truth, or by noise of words. And again, Non bonum Homini est Hominem vincere: Sed bonum est homini, ut cum Veritas vincat volentem: quia malum est Homini, ut eum Veritas vincat muitum. Nam ipsa vincat necesse est, five negantem, sive confitentem: It is not good for a man, to conquer a man: but it is good for a man, that the Truth may conquer him with his good will. For it is ill for a man, that the Truth should conquer him against his wil But whether he will, or will not, the Truth must needs Conquer him.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 5.  
And, as Chrysostom very aptly writeth, we say, that the Body of Christ is the Dead Carcase, and we ourselves must be the Eagles: meaning thereby, that we must fly on high, if we will come to the Body of Christ. For this Table, as Chrysostom saith, is a Table of Eagles, and not of jays. Cyprian also: This Bread, saith he, is the food of the Soul, and not the meat of the Belly.  

M. harding.  
In deed Chrysostom saith, as ye report But Sirs, what mean ye? To Eat the Body of Christ, which is the dead Carcase, in respect of his death (for unless he had fallen, we had not risen again) must we so be Eagles, as we use no office of man's Body to this kind of eating? Must we fly so high, as we look not to find this Body in Earth? Can we not Eat this Body, except we fly up to Heaven? 
In. 1. Corin. Cap. 10. H●mil. 24.  Can we not come by it, but there? Can we not Eat him, but there? Yes forsooth. 
* O Earthly Divinity: Then have you little to do in Heaven.  We need not go out of the Earth for the matter. For Chrysostom himself in the same Homily. from whence ye fetch this, 
What Eagles must we be, and how high must we fly to come to the eating of Christ's Body.  saith, that whiles we be in this life, this Mystery is cause, that the 
‡ Not by pulling Christ down to us: but by lifting up our Hearts to him.  Earth to us is become Heaven. He that desireth to know, what Eagles we must be, and how high we must fly to come to the eating of this Body worthily, let Chrysostom even there expound Chrysostom. He nameth Eagles (saith he) to show, that he must get him up on high, that cometh to this Body, and that he must have nothing to do with the Earth, neither be drawn downward to base things, and creep, but always fly upward, and behold the Sun of righteousness, etc. Will ye yet hear him more plainly declare, what he meaneth by this high eagles flight? Wipe away (saith he) all filth from thy Soul, prepare thy mind to receive these Mysteries. If the kings Child arrayed in purple and Diadem were delivered unto thee to bear, wouldst thou not cast down on the ground all that thou holdest, 
What is meant by the high eagles Flight. Chrysostom acknowledgeth Christ's very Body Present in the Sacrament.  and receive him? But now, when thou receivest not the kings Child, 
* With thy Faith, not with thy Mouth.  but the only begotten Son of God, tell me, I pray thee, art not afraid? And dost not cast away all love of worldly things, and garnish thyself with him only, but dost thou yet look down on the Earth, art thou yet in love of thy money? art thou yet given to the Earth? If it be so, what forgiveness, what excuse shalt thou find? This spiritual flying up requireth Chrysostom: and yet in that Homily he declareth 
‡ Untruth. For Chrysostom speaketh only of the Presence of Grace: of this gross & fleshly Presence, he saith nothing.  the Body of Christ to be present here in Earth, meaning in this Holy Sacrament, yea that very Body, which was Nailed, Beaten, which was not overcome by Death, which the Son seeing Crucified, turned away his beams, for which the vail of the Temple was rent asunder, stones and all the Earth quaked, the Body that was made all Bloody, 
To Receive, or Bear Christ.  and being thrust in with a spear, powered forth Fountains of Blood and Water to all the world healthful. Thus ye see, how far Chrysostom is from your strange Doctri●e, concerning the very and 
* Untruth. For Chrysostom not once nameth Real Presence. Read the Answer.  Real presence of Christ's Body in the Sacrament of the Altar. Of which Altar, and of the Sacrifice of that Body made and offered by the Priests, and of the Adoration due thereto, in that Homily he speaketh most plainly: That to prove your purpose, ye must seek for an other Homily, which ye are never like to find: for Chrysostom serveth not your turn. As neither Cyprian, whom ye allege, and against whom, God knoweth. Verily we confess with Holy Cyprian, 
Cyprian alleged by the Defen●●●● to no ●●●pole.  and the Fathers of the Nicene Council, that the Body of Christ, which we receive in the blessed Sacrament, is the food of the Soul, and not common meat to fill the paunch. And therefore of the outward Forms we take but little, 
‡ Untruth. For the Nicene Cosicel maketh no mention of any such forms. And, being but idle forms, and Shows, how are they ● Spiritual food, or how can they serve to make you Holy:  according to the Nicene Decree, acknowledging, that spiritual food to serve to Sanctimony, not to Satiety. lastly ye bring for you S. Augustine in these words.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here M. harding casteth his colours, to shadow that thing, that will not be hid. Whereas Chrysostom saith, Thou receivest not the kings child, but the only begotten Son of God, he so racketh, and presseth these words, as if the Fathers in their writings had never used any kind of Figure: and as if we were bound under pain of damnation, to receive what sentence so ever they have spoken, according to the very rigour, and extremity of the Letter.  
But the better to disclose the sensible grossness of this error, I trust, Gentle Reader, it shall not be neither painful, nor unprofitable for thee, to consider a few other such examples, and phrases of speech, commonly, and familiarly used by the Catholic Learned Fathers to like purpose. Therefore, as Chrysostom saith, we receive in the Holy Mysteries the Only begotten Son of God, meaning by Faith Only, not by Mouth, even so he writeth of the Sacrament of Baptism, 
Chrysost. in Epist. ad Colossen. Homil. 10.  Si quis tibi Purpuram, aut Diadema dedisset, nun prae quovis auro accepisses? Ego verò tibi non Ornatum Regium tribuam, sed ipsum Regem induendum exhibeo. Et quomodò, inquies, Christum poterit quis endure? Audi, quid Paulus dicat: Quotquot in Christum Baptizati estis, Christum industis: If any man had geeven thee a Princely rob, or a Crown, wouldst thou not set more by it, then by any Gold? But I will give thee, not a Princely rob, but the Prince himself, to put upon thee. Thou wilt say, how may a man put on Christ upon him? Hear, what S. Paul saith: As many of you, as are baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. S. Cyril saith, Discant omnes, 
cyril in johan. LIb. 2. Cap. 36.  ne, antequam firmiores sint Catechumeni, Christum eye, antequam oporteat, Baptismi Mysterio commendent●: Let all men take heed, that they deliver not Christ, in the Sacrament of Baptism, unto the Beginners, or Novices, before they be strong in the Faith, and before it be convenient.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. in Apocalyp. Homil. 11. Chrysost. De Sacerdot. Lib. 3.  Sancti Christum accipiunt in Manu, & in Front: Holy men receive Christ both in their Hand, and in their Forehead. S. Chrysostom saith, Adest Sacerdos, non Ignem gestans, sed Spiritum Sanctum: The Priest is present, Bearing, not Fire, but the Holy Ghost.  
S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. De josepho Patriarcha.  Portant in Typo Christi munera: portaturi in evangelio munerum Largitorem: They carry Christ's gifts in a Figure: In the Gospel they shall carry (Christ himself) the giver of the gifts. And again, Mortem non timebis, si geras Christum: 
Ambros. De Puga Saeculi, Ca 9 Athan. Oration. Prima Contra Arianos.  Thou shalt not fear Death, if thou bear Christ.  
Athanasius saith, Apud nos servatur Puerulus ille, quem Herodes interficere saiagebat: The same Child is kept amongst us, whom Herode laboured so earnestly to destroy. S. Chrysostom saith, Ciedo Apostolo Paulo, Christum in se loquentem circum ferenti: I believe the Apostle P●ule, carrieinge Christ about speaking within him. 
Chrysostom. in. 2. Timoth. homi. 2.   
S. Augustine saith, Concionatores tradunt Christum Discentibus: The Preachers deliver Christ unto their Learners. 
To Receive, or Bear Christ.  S. Cyril saith, Verum Manna Christus erat: qui per Figuram Mannae Priscis illis à Deo dabatur: Christ was the very True Manna: 
August. De Doctrina Christiana, Lib. 4. Ca 16. Cyrillus, in evang. johan Lib. 3. Cap. 34. Historia Longobardica, Legenda. 59  whom under the Figure of Manna God gave unto the Fathers of the Old Testament. It is written in M. hardings own legend, Christophorus portavit Christum in Humeris, & in Ore per Confessionem: Christopher bare Christ on his shoulders: and he bare Christ in his Mouth by his Confession.  
An other of his Doctors saith, Christus venditus fuit in josepho: Ligatus in Sampsono: Suspensus in Botro, & in Serpent Aeneo: Crucifixus in Isaaco: Christ was sold in joseph: He was bound in Samson: He was Hanged up in the Cluster of Grapes, and in the Brazen Serpent: and he was Crucified in Isaac.  
Chrysostom saith, 
Fortalitium Fidei, Lib. 1.  Quocunque quis pervenerit, Paulum videbit ubique in omnium Ore circumferri: Whither so ever a man come, he shall see Paul carried about every where, 
Chrysostom. ad Populam Antiochen. Homil. 16.  in the Mouth of every man. And to end this long rehearsal, S. Augustine saith, Detractor Diabolum portat in Lingua: The slanderer carrieth the Devil upon his tongue.  
I doubt not, 
August. De Salutaribus Documentis. Cap. 26.  but M. harding will better bethink himself, and not require us, to take all these sayings, without any manner of favourable exposition, barely, and nakedly, as they lie. Otherwise he must needs encumber himself with a great number of inconveniences.  
Of these phrases, and manners of speech, S. Augustine giveth his judgement in this sort: 
August. De Civitate Dei, Lib. 18. Cap. 48.  Omnia Significantia videntur quodammodò earum rerum, quas Significant, sustinere personas: All Signs, or Tokens seem in a manner to bear the persons of the things themself, that they Signify. As for example he saith, Sicut dictum est ab Apostolo, Petra erat Christus: quoniam Petra illa, de qua hoc dictum est, Significabat Christum: So the Apostle saith, The Rock was Christ: For that the Rock, whereof it was spoken, Signified Christ.  
Likewise Athanasius saith, 
Athana. Oratio. Contra Sabellij Gregales.  Qui Regis Imaginem videt, Regem videt: & dicit, En tibi Regem. Neque tamen duos Reges constituit: neque Imaginem particulam esse Regis, neque Regem particulam Imaginis esse judicat: He, that seeth the Image of a King, seeth the King: and saith, Behold, there is the King. And yet (so saying) he maketh not two Kings: Nor thinketh he, either that the Image is a parcel of the King, or that the King is parcel of the Image.  
S. Gregory in plainer wise saith thus, 
Gregor. in job. Lib. 29. Cap. 16.  Eundem Agnum johannes ostendendo, Esaias praevidendo, Abel offerndo locutus est. Et quem johannes in ostensione, quem Esaias in locutione, Hunc Abel Significando in Manibus tenuit: john the baptist by pointing with his finger, Esaias by foreseeinge, Abel by offering, spoke all three of One Lamb. And Abel by Singnifieinge, held the same Christ in his hands, whom john held by pointing, and whom Esaias held by Prophesieinge. 
Gregor. in. 1. Regum, Ca 2. Li. 2.  Again he saith, Intus ad Christum respicit, quem per considerationem portat in cord: In wardely he beholdeth Christ, whom by Meditation he Beareth in his Heart.  
Such Amplifications, and vehement, and extraordinary speeches, notwithstanding in some cases they may be dangerous, yet oftentimes they seem necessary, the better to quicken the dullness, and negligence of the people. And therefore Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. De Sacerdot. Lib. 3.  Behold, The Lamb of God is slain: The Blood even now is drawn from his side: and the whole people is coloured, and made rid and Bloody with the same: Not for that it was so in deed: but to lift up, and to withdraw the Hearts of the people, from the outward Corruptible Creatures of the Bread, and Wine, to a Spiritual, and Mystical understanding, that is to say, to the eating, and Drinking of the very Body, and Blood of Christ. And to that end he saith, Aquilas appellat, ut ostendat, ad alta eum oportere contendere, qui ad hoc Corpus accedit: He calleth us Eagles, to show, that he must mount on high, and flee aloft, who so will approach near to that Body. Likewise he saith, 
Chrysost. in. 1. Corin. Homil. 24. Chrysost. Ad Popul. Antiochen. Homil. 61. Hieronym. ad Hedibiam. August. Quaest. Euangelicar. Lib. 1. Cap. 42.  In Coelum, vocat nos, ad Magni Regis Mensam: Christ calleth us up into Heaven, unto the Table of the great King. And again, illum Sursum sedentem hic degustamus: We being here beneath, taste him sitting in Heaven above. So saith S. Jerome, Ascendamus cum Domino in Coenaculum Magnum, stratum, atque mundatum: & accipiamus ab eo Sursum Calicem Novi Testamenti: Let us Ascend up with our Lord into that great Dininge Chamber adorned, and made clean: and there above let us receive of him the Cup of the New Testament.  
So saith S. Augustine, Vbi fuerit Corpus, illuc Congregabuntur Aquilae, id est, in Coelum: Illuc Congregabuntur Aquilae: dictum est de Spiritualibus, qui eius Passionem, Humilitatemque imitando, tanquam de eius Corpore saturantur: Where as the Carcase shallbe, thither shall the eagles resort together: that is to say, Into Heaven: Thither shall the eagles resort together: This is spoken of the Spiritual faithful men, that following his Passion, and Humility, be filled, as it were, with his Body.  
So saith Leo, 
De Con. Dist. 2 In quibus.  Circa hoc Corpus Aquilae sunt, quae alis circumuolant Spiritualibus: About this Body there are Eagles, that flee about with Spiritual whinges.  
Thus are the faithful made Eagles: Thus is the Earth become Heaven: Not for that Christ's Body is pulled down, as M. harding imagineth, but for that our minds, & affections be lifted up. For so Chrysostom himself expoundeth his own meaning: 
Chrysost. in Homil. De Pentecoste.  Hodiè nobis Terra facta est Coelum, non stellis de Coelo in Terram descendentibus, sed Apostolis ad Coelum Ascendentibus. Quia effusa est Copiosa Gratia Spiritus Sancti, & universum Orbem operata est Coelum: non immutans Naturam, sed voluntatem emendans: This day the Earth is made Heaven: not by the Stars coming down upon the Earth: but by the goeinge up of the Apostles into Heaven. For the abundante Grace of the Holy Ghost is powered out, and hath turned the whole World into Heaven: not by changing of Nature, but by correcting the will of Man. 
Chrysost. Ad Hebraeos, Homil. 16.  Likewise again he saith, Apostoli in Terra constituti, in Coelo conversabantur. Et quid dico, in Coelo? Altiores erant Coelo: etiam al●o Coelo: Et ad ipsum Dominum pervenerunt: The Apostles dwelling in the Earth, had their conversation in Heaven. But what say I, In Heaven? They were higher than Heaven: yea than the second Heaven: and came even unto the Lord himself. Again he saith, 
Chrysost. De Foenit●n. Homil. 6. Chrysost. in 1. Corinth. Homil. 24.  David Terram in Coelum vertit: & Homines facit Angelos: David turneth the Earth into Heaven: and of men he maketh Angels. Again he saith in this self same place by M. harding alleged; Vt Terra nobis Coelum sit, facit hoc Mysterium. Ascend igitur ad Coeli Portas, & diligenter attend: Imò non Coeli, sed Coeli Coelorum: & tunc, quod dicimus, intueberis: This Mystery couseth, that unto us the Earth is Heaven. Ascend up therefore unto the Gates of Heaven: and mark diligently. Nay, I say not, Unto the Gates of Heaven: but, Unto the Gates of the Heaven of Heavens. And so shalt thou see the things, that I tell thee.  
Now judge thou, good Christian Reader, how true it is, and how agreeable with S. Chrysostom's Doctrine, that M. harding saith, Must we flee so high, that we look not to find this Body in Earth? Can we not Eat this Body, except we flee up into Heaven? Can we not come by it, but there? Can we not Eat him, but there? Yes forsooth: We need not go out of the Earth for the matter.  
Verily, Chrysostom, when he saith, We receive the Son of God, maketh mention, neither of Transubstantiation, nor of Real, and fleshly Presence, nor of eating with Mouth, or Teeth: But only sendeth us to the force, and working of Faith, 
To touch, to Hold Christ.  and Spirit: whereby only, and by no way else, we receive and Eat in deed, and Verily the Body of Christ.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 6.  
And S. Augustine saith, How shall I hold him, being Absent? How shall I reach my hand up to Heaven, 
In johan. Tracta. 50.  to lay hold upon him sitting there? He answereth, Reach thither thy Faith, and then thou haste laid hold on him.  

M. harding.  
Upon these words of S. john, 
johan. 1●.  The Bishops and Phariseis gave Commandment, that if any knew, where jesus were, he should show it, that they might apprehend him, S. Augustine expounding the same, in a contrary sense, saith: Let us now show the jews, where Christ is: would God they would hear, 
S. Augustine speaketh not of receiving Christ in the Sacrament, but by Faith only.  and lay hold on him. Where he speaketh not of receiving Christ, so as we receive him in the Sacrament, 
* And by Faith Only we receive Christ in the Sacrament.  but of receiving him by Faith Only. And there he wisheth and exhorteth the jews to come to the Faith, and teacheth them how they may profitably lay hold on Christ, whom their Forefathers laid hold on with violent hands to their damnation. Let them come to the Church (saith he) let them hear, where Christ is, and lay hold on him. After certain words, he maketh this objection to himself: Well, the jew answereth me, how shall I hold him, that is Absent? How shall I reach up my hand to Heaven, that I may lay hold on him, which sitteth there? Reach thither thy Faith (saith Augustine) and then thou haste laid hold on him. Then followeth in the same line that, which plainly declareth all this to be meant of laying hold of Christ by Faith, 
† He speaketh not of the receiving of the Sacrament: but he speaketh of the receiving of the Very Body of Christ: which is wrought only by Faith.  not by receiving the Communion. Parents tui tenuerunt carne, tu tene cord. Thy Forefathers (thou jew) took hold on Christ in Flesh: take thou hold on him in thy Heart. There he showeth how Christ may be holden, though concerning the visible and sensible presence of his Body, he be in Heaven at the Right hand of the Father. All this, and what so ever is said there, upon the Text before recited, implieth not so much as any colour of argument against the Truth of Christ's very Body in this most Blessed Sacrament. And thus all your allegations and reasons concerning this matter besufficiently answered.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It is true, that M. harding saith, S. Augustine in this place speaketh nothing of purpose and specially of the Sacrament. Certainly it had been great vanity for him, to will his Hearers, to seek for the Sacrament in Heaven above. But he speaketh of the embracing, and holding the very Body of Christ, being now in Heaven. Which thing is wrought only by Faith, and none otherwise: Whether it be in the Sacrament, or without the Sacrament. Infinite sentences have been uttered by the Holy Fathers to like purpose.  
S. 
August. Aduersus judaeos. ca 9  Augustine saith, Accedite ad eum, & illuminamini: Quid est, Accedite, nisi, Credit? come unto him, and receive the Light: What is, come unto him, but, Believe in him? Again, Ambulando non laborabitis: Ibi enim Acceditis, ubi Creditis: Your walking shall not be painful to you: For there ye come to him, where ye Believe in him. 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 48 Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 121. August. De Natura & Gra. Ca 69.  Again he saith, Exijt de Manibus eorum: Non enim apprehendere eum potuerunt, quia Manus Fidei non habuerunt: Christ departed out of their hands. For they could not lay hold on him, because they had not the Hands of Faith. Again, Christus non rectè tangitur: id est, non rectè in eum Creditur: Christ is not well touched: that is to say, Christ is not well Believed. Likewise again he saith, Sunt in cord Spirituales Manus: There be certain Spiritual Hands in the Heart. And therefore S. Ambrose saith, Stephanus in Terris positus, Christum tangit in Coelo: 
Ambrose Sermone. 98.  Stevin being in the Earth, (by Faith) toucheth Christ being in Heaven.  
But as S. 
Faith receiveth, etc.  Augustine so often saith, we Embrace, & Hold Christ by Faith: so is not M. harding able to show, that he ever once said, We Hold Christ with Mouth, or Teeth, or receive him down into Our Bellies. And therefore S. 
Ambrose in Lucam. Lib. 10. Cap. 24.  Ambrose saith, Non Corporali tactu Christum, sed Fide Tangimus: We touch not Christ by Bodily touching: but we touch him by Faith. And again, Fide Christus Tangitur: Fide Christus videtur. Non Corpore Tangitur: non Oculis comprehenditur: 
Ambrose in Lucam, Lib. 6. Cap. 8.  By Faith Christ is touched: By Faith Christ is seen. He is not touched with our Bodies: He is not holden with our Eyes. Likewise S. Augustine saith, Dominus consolatur nos, qui ipsum iam in Coelo sedentem Manu contrectare non possumus: 
August. in Epist. johan. Tracta. 1.  Sed Fide contingere (possumus). The Lord Comforteth us, that cannot now touch him with Hand, sitting in Heaven: 〈◊〉 by Faith we may touch him.  
Now, for as much as M. harding saith, S. Augustine in this place maketh no mention of the receiving of Christ's Body in the Sacrament, it shall not be from the purpose to consider, what he hath written otherwheres, touching the same. 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 7.  Thus he saith, Christus est Cibus noster, quo nihil dulcius: Sed si quis habeat Palatum sanum in cord: Christ himself is our Meat, than which there is nothing more savoury: so that a man have a sound taste in his Heart. Again he saith, 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 26.  Dominus dixit se Panem, qui de Coelo descendit, hortans ut Credamus in eum. Credere enim in eum, hoc est Manducare Panem vivum. Qui Credit in eum, Manducat: Inuisibiliter Saginatur, quia Inuisibiliter renascitur. Infans Intus est: novus Intus est: ubi novellatur, ibi satiatur: Our Lord called himself the Bread, that came from Heaven, exhorting us to Believe in him. For to Believe in him, that is to Eat the Bread of Life. He Eateth, that Believeth in him. He is fed Invisibly, because he is new borne Invisibly. In wardely he is an infant: inwardly he is New. Where he is renewed, there is he filled.  
So saith Eusebius Emissenus, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Quia Corpus.  as he is alleged by Gratian: Cùm ad Reverendum Altare Coelestibus Cibis satiandus accedis, Sacrum Dei tui Corpus, & Sanguinem respice, Honora, Mirare: Mente Continge: Cordis Manu Suscipe: & maximè haustu Interiori assume: When thou comest unto the Reverend Aultare, (or Communion Table) to be Fed with the Heavenly Meats, behold the Holy Body, and Blood of thy God: Honour it: Wonder at it: touch it (not with thy Bodily Mouth, but) with thy Mind: Receive it (not with thy Bodily Hand, but) with the Hand of thy Heart: and specially take it with thy Inner taste.  
Therefore S. 
August. Feria. 2. Paschatis.  Augustine saith, Quisquis cum Fide, & timore Verbum Dei audis, consolatur te Fractio Panis. Absentia Domini non est Absens. Habeto Fidem: & tecum est, quem non vides. Ideò Dominus absentavit se Corpore ab omni Ecclesia, & Ascendit in Coelum, ut Fides aedificetur: Who so ever thou be, that with Faith, and Fear hearest the Word of God, the breaking of Bread doth Comfort thee. The Absence of our Lord is not absent. Have thou Faith: and he, whom thou seest not, is with thee: Therefore our Lord, as touching his Body, hath Absented himself from all his Church, and is Ascended into Heaven, that our Faith may be edified.  
And in this self same place, that M. harding saith, maketh so little for our purpose, he saith thus: Quomodo tenebo Absentem? Quomodo in Coelum manum mittam, 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 50.  ut ibi sendentem teneam? Fidem mitte: & Tenuisti. Parents tui tenuerunt Carne: Tu tene cord. Quoniam Christus Absens, etiam praesens est. Nisi Praesens esset, à nobis ipsis teneri non posset. Sed, quoniam verum est, quod ait, Ecce ego vobiscum sum usque ad Consummationem Saeculi, & abijt, & hîc est: Et redijt, & nos non deseruit. Corpus enim suum intulit Coelo: Maiestatem autem non abstulit Mundo: How shall I hold Christ, being Absent? How shall I thrust my hand into Heaven, that I may hold him sitting there? Send up thy Faith: and thou holdest him. Thy Fathers (the jews) held him in Flesh: Hold him thou in thy Heart. For Christ being absent, is also Present. unless he were Present, we could not hold him. But, for as much as it is true, that he saith, Behold, I am with you until the end of the world, Therefore he is gone, and yet is here. He is come again, and hath not forsaken us. For he hath avanced his Body into Heaven: but he hath not withdrawn his Majesty from the World.  
All these things well considered, whereas M. harding in the end concludeth with these words: Thus all your Allegations, and Reasons, concerning this matter, be sufficiently answered, I doubt not, but his discrete, and indifferent Reader will think, He crew long, before it was day.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 1.  
Neither can we away in our Churches with these Shows, and sales, and markets of Masses, nor with the carrieinge about, and worshipping of the Bread: nor with such other Idolatrous, and Blasphemous fondness: which none of them can prove, that Christ or his Apostles ever ordained, or left unto us. And we justly blame the Bishops of Rome, who without the Word of God, without the Authority of the Holy Fathers, without any example of Antiquity, 
In Ceremoniario Roma. Eccles.  after a New guise, do not only set before the People the Sacramental Bread to be worshipped as God, but do also carry the same about upon an ambling palfrey, whither so ever themselves journey: in such sort, as in old times the Persians fire, and the Relics of the Goddess Isis were solemnly carried about in Procession: and have brought the Sacraments of Christ to be used now as a stage play, and a solemn sight: to the end, that men's eyes should be fed with nothing else but with mad gasinges, & foolish gauds, in the self same matter, wherein the Death of Christ ought diligently to be beaten into our Hearts, and wherein also the Mysteries of our Redemption ought with all Holiness, and reverence to be executed.  

M. harding.  
The things, which it liketh your Sathanical Spirit with blasphemous words to 
* Untruth For we honour the Holy Mysteries: and you profanely dishonour them.  dishonour, and bring in contempt, are such, as neither your praises can make more praise worthy, nor your upbraidings any whit of less estimation. If any by the stinking breath of your vile words be puffed away into your damned side, 
Matth. ●. Luc. 3. A Priest may justly enjoy his necessary living for serving at th'altar, and for saying Mass. We know no Woorshippers of Bread.  who so ever they be, they show themselves to have been light chaff, not sound wheat. Yet for good folks sake, that I may leave your vile eloquence to yourselves, and answer the matter by you railed at, and belied, and other wise not disproved: I pray you, good Sirs, the 
† Untruth. For, as it is now used, there is no viler dishonour, nor greater Blasphemy.  Mass being the highest and most Honourable Service, that is done to God in his Church (which other wheres being already proved, I treat not of in this place), why should not a Priest, by whom only it is, and may be done, 
* Untruth. For Christ never called his Disciples, or sent them abroad, to say Mass.  being called to that vocation, and state of life, have reward, and living for it? Rail against the Mass, and Priests serving at the Altar of God until your tongues burn in your head in Hell Fire: We tell you, Priests of the Catholic Church sell 
† Alas, they have it not. Otherwise for moonie it should away.  not the Fruit and Merit of Christ's Blood offered in the Mass, but only for their ministery and labour require necessary sustenance of Life.  
But for your Defence, ye confess that ye cannot away with the carrying about and worshipping of Bread. No more cannot we. To whose charge lay ye this? Be there any such Idolaters now, that worship Bread? They would be known. 
* God forebid, there should be water in the Sea.  God forbidden we should suffer Idolaters to live amongst us. soothly in the Catholic Church we know none. If ye cannot away with the Honour which 
† Untruths, and most fond, and blasphemous follies.  all devout Christian people do to the † blessed Sacrament, (we mean to Christ's Body, and Christ himself † present in Substance under † the Form of Bread) then can not we take you for Christians. Mock, scoff, jest, and rail at us with the jews, we dare not, but Honour our Lord Christ, where so ever our Faith findeth him verily and in Substance present.  
If through fervent zeal (as sometimes it happeneth) abuses in certain places have crept in, no good Catholic man 
* Yet not one of your Catholic Prelates amendeth them.  defendeth them. Marry we know all is not to be abrogated that misliketh your corrupt taste. 
† Untruth, fond and Heathenish. For God himself saith, in vain they worship me. etc.  And much is right Holy Devotion pleasant in the sight of God, and therefore allowed in the Church, which your hot spirit calleth Idolatrous, and blasphemous fondness. And though the Ceremony and manner, whereby such devotion is showed, cannot be proved by ordinance of Christ or of the Apostles expressed in Scripture, yet Christian people doubt not but God accepteth their good hearts.  
The Bishop of Rome ye blame unjustly, I might say also proudly. For procuring 
* Untruths four together. For he dishonoureth Christ. He hath neither Gods word, nor the Authority of all the Fathers, nor the examples of Antiquity.  Honour and worship to Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, he hath the * word of God, * the authority of all Holy Fathers, and the * examples of antiquity, as 
† Note, that in the same one little Article, M. harding hath sent us twelve great Untruths.  I have at large proved in my answer to your companion Master jewel his eight negative Article. But the ambling Horse offendeth you. Why be ye not also offended with the Ass and her fool, that bore the 
* Untruth. For this is only the Sacrament of that same Body.  same Body at jerusalem, which the Horse beareth at Rome: Then Visible and weighty, now Invisible, and of no weight? That was done in Pomp to the honour of Christ, and so is this. Ye say this is done after a new guise. So then was that. Neither is it true which ye say, that the Bishops of Rome do carry about with them the Sacrament whither so ever they journey. 
† Do the M. harding scoff at these games, or speaketh he in earnest?  Ye might have learned in that Book, our of which ye allege that matter to scoff at, 
Lib. Ceremoniarum Ecclesiae Ro. Sectione. 12. Ca 1. Baldachinun.  that such a solemnity is used specially, when the Pope rideth in Pontificalibus. Then (as the Book telleth) a white Palfrey trapped, gentle, and fair, with a clear sounding bell hanging at his neck, is lead, which carrieth the Monstrance, or Pixe with the most Holy Body of Christ, over the which noble Citizens shall bear a Canopy. Thus the Book of Ceremonies.  

* Why should a wise man speak so fondly? Read the Answer.  And I pray you, what evil is this? If it be good to carry about that most holy Body, by which as Christ once redeemed us, so by the same devotely honoured of faithful people, and carried abroad and brought to certain places, hath in old times (as yet also doth continually) to the great comfort and help of sundry persons being in distress, wrought miraculousely healthful remedies: If the Israelites found help at God's hand by 
† They did it against Gods will: and sped thereafter. Read the Answer.  bringing the Ark into the field with them, as they marched forward against the Philistians: 
1. Reg. 4. 1. Reg. 5.  if the Philistians cried out for fear when they perceived the Ark to be in the Israelites army, and said, Venit Deus in Castra. Vae nobis. God is come into their Tents. Alas we are undone, etc.  
And concerning the order of the Ceremony, whereas 
* Grave Considerations.  the people be desirous to behold the Body of their Redeemer with their Faith by their carnal eat directed to the Form of Bread, 
In the order of this Ceremony nothing appeareth to a Christian man unseemly or unreasonable.  no man is able to hold up on high the Sacrament, so as convenient it were to be done both to satisfy their Devotion, and to maintain their Faith: for the Pope himself commonly is an aged man, and therefore over weak 
† A Horse supplieth the Pope● espice.  for that Service, specially arrayed in Pontificalibus, as in such solemnities he is. Again the instrument that serveth for that purpose is so great and weighty (for so it appertaineth to the honour of Christ,) the way so long, the air for the more part there so hot: as no other man is well able for lack of strength to bear it so as meet it is to be borne. In this case † why may not a Horse be put to that service, to supply that which by natural weakness faileth in man? Wherein he serveth not, as one that beareth a male, but as the Ass that bore Christ, as the Kine that drew the Ark.  
Neither ought the custom of bearing the most Holy Body of Christ, 
The custom of carrying the Sacrament, where the Pope goeth, is neither New nor Strange.  where the Pope goeth, seem New and Strange. For we Read in the life of the Blessed Martyr Steven the first, who was Pope of Rome above thirteen hundred years past, that Tharsitius the Deacon (who at length also suffered death for Christ) bore our lords Body, at what time he attended upon the Blessed Man Pope Steven, as he went to his martyrdom. Who desireth to see this described at large, the same may he find in (that Great fond Fabulare) Simeon Metaphrasies' a Greek writer, well approved, and highly esteemed in the Greek Church, In vita Stephani Primi.  
For witness whereof we have S. 
Sale of Masses.  Ambrose, who describeth how certain faithful persons carried 
* It was a great abuse of the Sacrament: and yet without either Pyxe, or Pomp: And therefore was afterward utterly taken away throughout the whole Church of God.  this blessed Sacrament with them, 
In Oratione funebri in Satyrum Fratrem. Innocent. 3. De Mysterijs Missae. Lib. 6.  when they went to the Sea, of whom his Brother Satyrus obtained the same in a Shipwreck, and by help thereof, hanging it in a stole about his neck, seeking for none other succour, cast himself into the Sea, and miraculously escaped safe to land. Neither is the same by him done without a special Mystery, though unknown to the more part. Although, saith a learned Pope, a reason cannot be given of all things, what so ever have been brought in ure by our Forefathers: yet I think, quoth he, that therein lie hidden profound Mysteries.  
I report me now to the secret consciences of good Christian people, whether the Bishops of Rome use not the Blessed Sacrament reverently and bonorably or no, 
This Defender followeth julian, Lucian. Porphyriabus;, Celsus, and such other wicked Infidels.  but rather 
† If ye had not these games from thence, then tell us, from whence ye had them.  as the Persians Fire, and the Relics of the Goddess Isis, as a stage Play, mad gasinges, and foolish Gauds, as it liketh this wicked Chammes brood to rail. Wherein they follow the sheppes, which julian the Apostata, Lucian, Porphyrius, Celsus, and such other Profane Hellhounds have trodden before them. For after the like manner they railed at the Holy Mysieries of Christian Religion, namely Celsus, who as Origen writeth of him, objected to the Christians the Sacrifices of Mithra, (which was an Idol that the persians worshipped, and called by the name of the Sun) from whence he said they had taken all their Sacraments, 
Contra Celsum Lib. 6. De Mithra vide Suidam in dictione.  Rites, and Ceremonies. And right so (as we find in S. Augustine writing against the Manichees) the Payn●mes found fault with the Christian people for 
* Most vain untruths. For S. Augustine speaketh neither of Honour, nor of Adoration, nor of Christ's Body, nor of forms.  Honour done to the * Body and Blood of Christ under * Forms of Bread and Wine, saitinge that they Honoured Bacchus and Ceres.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Concerning these Satanical Spirits, & stinking breaths, & vile Words, & such other like flowers of your Eloquence, M. harding, I confess myself to be far inferior, and never able to make you answer. It is true, that ye say, The workman is worthy of his heir. 
2 Corinth. 9  S. Paul saith, The Lord hath appointed, that who so Preacheth the Gospel, should live by the Gospel. But where did Christ ever say unto you, Go into all the world, and say Private Mass, and offer me up unto my Father, for Remission of Sins? What Apostle, what Prophet, what Doctor, what Father ever taught you so to do? If ye set yourself a work without Commission, and run forth, when noman biddeth you, then are ye your own men: and of reason ought to pay yourselves.  
If your Masses, as you say, were never set to open sale, wherefore then was this Decree written in the Council of Oxford, 
Constitution Othonis Legat inae, Folio. 143.  Venalitatem Missarum districtè inhibemus? We straightly forbid the Sale of Masses. Think you, that so many wise Fathers would forbid that thing, the never was used? In the late Conference holden at Worms, the Bishop of Sidon, being there present, durst not say, as you dare say, there was no such unlawful sale, but only said, 
In Colloquio Wormatien. Con●essis. 5.  It was out of season to talk thereof. His words be these, Quid attinebat de Missis venalibus, de Mercatu Indulgentiarum, etc. mentionem intempestinam inducere? What was it to the purpose to speak of the Selling of Masses and pardons, out of season?  
The Priests, ye say, of the Catholic Church sell not the fruit, and Merit of Christ's Blood. No marvel: For they have it not to sell. But if ye had Christ himself, ye would set him to sale, as other your Fathers have done before you. Such a one was he, 
Gregor. Lib. 2. Epist. 33.  of whom S. Gregory writeth, jesum Christum Dominum nostrum Haeretico, accepta Pecunia, venundedit: He took Money, and sold jesus Christ our Lord unto an Heretic. And, when the Bishop of Rome selleth his pardons, what other thing would he seem to sell, but only the Fruits, and Merits of the Blood of Christ?  
Ye say further, God forbid, we should suffer Idolaters to live amongst us. And yet your near friends have thought, ye have not been far from the maintenance of Idolatry. 
Vain Devotion.  Polydorus Vergilius entreating of the worshipping of Images, saith thus, 
Polydor. De Inuentorib. Rer. Lib. 6. Cap. 13.  Eo insaniae deventum est, ut haec pars Pietatis parum differat ab Impietate: They are so far proceeded in madness, that this part of Holiness is not far from wickedness. And Ludovicus vives saith, He seeth no great difference between certain Christians worshipping their Images, and the Old Heathens adouringe their Idols.  
Ye say, The Carrieinge about of the Sacrament is right Holy devotion, pleasant in the sight of God: and Christian People doubt not, but God accepteth their good Hearts. Even so, no doubt, as when he said sometime unto the jews, 
isaiah. 1.  Quis requisivit ista de manibus vestris? Who required these things at your hands?  
S. 
August. De Consen. Evangelist. Lib. 1. Cap. 18. August. In quae. ex veteri Testament. quae. 43. Chrysostom. in Acta, Homil. 49. Gabriel. Lect. 26.  Augustine saith, Socratis sententia est, Vnumquenque Deum sic coli oportere, quomodo se ipse colendum esse praeceperit: The Judgement of Socrates is this, That every God ought so to be worshipped, as he himself hath commanded. Again he saith, Constat, Fidem stultam non solùm minimè prodesse, sed etiam obesse: It is certain, that a foolish Faith, not only doth no good, but also hurteth. Chrysostom saith, Tales sunt Diabolo venandi arts: qui praetextu Pietatis laqueos tegit: Such sleights of hunting hath the Devil. Under the Colour of Holiness he hideth his snares.  
But, as touching the solemnitte of carrieinge the Sacrament, your own Doctor Gabriel Biel could have told you, Christus non dedit Discipulis Sacramentum, ut ipsum honorificè conseruarent: sed dedit in sui usum, dicens, Accipite, & Manducate: Christ gave not the Socramenté to his Disciples to the end they should keep it with Honour: But he gave it to them for their use, saienge to them, Take, and Eat. Likewise saith Humbertus, 
Citatur à Cassandro in Liturgijs.  Christus non tantùm Benedixit Panem, & reseruavit frangendum in crastinum: nec fregit tantùm, & reposuit: sed fractum statim distribuit: Christ did not only Bless the Bread, and reserve it to be broken the next day: nor did he only Break it, and lay it up: but being broken straight way he delivered it.  
All this strange solemn Festival guise Pope Vrbanus the fourth learned, not of Christ, or Paul, but only by the Revelation of Dame Eva the Ancharesse: and by her good advise founded the New Feast of Corpus Christi, and caused the Sacrament to be borne about in Procession.  
But the ancient, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 51.  & worthy Father Chrysostom saith, Discamus, Christum ex ipsius voluntate honorare: Nam qui honoratur, eo maximè honore laetatur, quem ipse vult: non quem nos optamus: Let us learn to honour Christ after his own will. For he that is honoured, delighteth most in that honour, that he himself would have: not in that honour, that we can Fancy. notwithstanding, when the Sacramental Bread is carried only upon a horse, and the Pope himself is borne aloft, in a Chair of Gold, upon the shoulders of six, or eight Noble men, I pray you, whether of them hath greater Honour?  
For the rest, The Pope, saith M. harding, is and old Man: he rideth in his Pontificalibus: he is laden with Apparel: The Pyxe is weighty: The Weather is hot: there is none other Creature to supply his room: Therefore it is lately concluded in Louvain in great solemn sadness, that a Horse must be had in, to play the Pope's part, and to carry the Monstrance.  
Here, for as much as M. harding hath purposely made mention of the Pope's riding in his Pontificalibus, and the Solemnity, and Pomp thereof is known to few, it shall not be impertinente, briefly to disclose the order thereof. Thus therefore it is written in the Ceremoniarie of Rome: 
Ceremoniar. Section. 12. Cap. 5.  Sic Papa equitat in Pontificalibus in aliquam Civitatem. Cardinals descendunt ex equis, & accedunt reverenter ad Papam, & osculantur illi pedem. Episcopus Civitatis accedit ad Papam cum debitis reverentijs, & offers illi Crucem osculandam: quam Pontifex reverenter, cum Mitra tamen, osculabitur. Non enim commodé poterit ei abstrahi equiti ab equestribus. Miracles. Si tamen placuerit & Mitram deponere, non erit inconueniens. Deinde Praelatus incipiat Antiphonam, Ecce Sacerdos Magnus: Thus the Pope's Holiness rideth into any City in his Pontificalibus. The cardinals light from their Horses, and come reverently unto the Pope, and kiss his foot. The Bishop of the City cometh likewise to the Pope with dew reverence, and offereth him the Cross to kiss: which the Pope shall kiss reverently, keeping on his Mitre notwithstanding. For while be sitteth on horse back, his horsemennes cannot very easily take of his Mitre, and set it on again. Howbeit, if it shall like him to put of his Mitre, it shallbe no great inconvenience. afterward the Bishop shall begin this Anthem, Behold the Great Priest. And so he pricketh forth in his Pontificalibus.  
The carrieinge out of the Ark of God into the field in the time of Eli the High Priest, 
1. Regum. 4.  boadeth no very good Argument for the carrieinge of the Sacrament. For at that time the Army of Israel was overthrown, thertie thousand Soldiers were slain, and amongst them the two Sons of Eli: The Ark was taken: Eli himself fell back from his Chair, and broke his neck. Therefore, M. harding, ye shall have much ado to make good your Procession by this example.  
This matter, ye say, hath been proved by sundry Miracles. first, whether there have been any such Miracles wrought, or no, it is uncertain. But were it granted, yet may not your Miracles always stand for good proofs. Your own Doctor Alexander de Hales saith, 
Alexand. Halen. part. 4. quae. 53. Mem. 4. Arti. 3.  Miracula fiunt aliquando humana procuratione: aliquando Diabolica operatione: Miracles be wrought sometime by the working, and procurement of men: and sometime by the conveyance of the Devil. So saith Nicolaus Lyra, an other of your own Doctors, speaking likewise of your own Miracles: 
Nicol. Lyra, in 14. Ca Danielis.  Fit aliquando in Ecclesia maxima deceptio populi in Miraculis fictis à Sacerdotibus, vel eis adhaerentibus, propter Lucrum temporale. Et talia extirpanda sunt à bonis Praelatis, sicut ista extirpata sunt à Daniel: In the Church (of God) the People is oftentimes much deceived by Feigned Miracles, either by the Priests, or by priests familiars, for Temporal gain. And such Miracles must be rooted out by good Bishops, as these were rooted out by Daniel. These words I am the more willing to rehearse in this place, 
Rejoinder, Pag. 9 a. Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 13.  for that it liketh you, to carp, and to pike quarrels at the same in your Rejoinder.  
To like purpose S. Augustine saith, Contra istos, ut sic loquar, Mirabiliarios, cautum me fecit Deus meus, dicens, In novissimis temporibus exurgent Pseudopropherae, facientes Signa, & Portenta, ut in errorem inducant, si fieri potest, etiam Electos. Ecce, Praedixi vobis. Ergo cautos nos fecit Sponsus: quia & Miraculis decipi non debemus: My God hath warned me to be ware of these Moungers of Miracles, saying, In the last days shall rise up False Prophets, working Signs, and Wonders, to the end, if it be possible, to bring the Elect into error. Behold, I have forewarned you. Therefore the Bridegroom hath willed us to beware: For we may not be deceived, no not by Miracles.  
The tales, that ye allege, of Tharsitius, and Satyrus, make nothing, either for the Adoration of the Sacrament, or else for the Pope's palfrey. Women, and Children, and Lay men used then to carry home the Sacrament in their Naptekinnes, 
Articulo. 1.  and to keep it in forcelettes, as in my Former Reply it is largely showed. But these were Abuses of the Mystery: and therefore afterward were abolished.  
It grieveth you much, that we say, The Pope causeth, the Sacramental Bread to be carried before him upon a horse, as the Kings of Persia used in old times to carry the Fiere, which they called Orimasda, and imagined the same to be their God. And therefore ye cry out in your Passion, Chammes brood, Hellhounds, and what so ever might serve you best: even with like Sobriety, and modesty, 
The carricinge of the Sacrament.  as they, who sommetime in the like case cried out, Magna Diana Ephesiorum: Great is Diana of the Ephesians. How be it, other example more agreeable to resemble your folly, we could find none.  
Neither may you justly, 
Actor. 19  and truly say, ye have received none of your Orders, and Usages from the Heathens. Your own Gloze noteth upon the Decrees, Clerici euntes ad Tumulos mortuorum portabant secum Sacramenta Corporis, 
De Con. Dist. 1. Non oportet, In Glosa.  & Sanguinis Christi: & super tumulos ea distribuebant. Et haec Consuetudo facta fuit a Gentibus: The Clerks (or Priests) going to the graves of the dead, carried with them the Sacraments of the Body, and Blood of Christ: and made distribution thereof over the graves. And this same Custom was used among the Heathens. Nicolaus Leonicenus saith, 
Nicola. Leonicenus, In Varia Historia, Libr. 2. Cap. 21.  Isidis Sacerdotes in Aegypto utebantur Lineis vestibus, & semper erant deronso capillo: quod etiam per manus traditum ad nostra usque tempora pervenisse videtur. Siquidem ij, qui apud nos Divino Cultui, & Sacris Altaribus president, barbam, comamque nutrire prohibentur: & in Sacris utuntur lineis amictibus: The Priests of the Goddess Isis in egypt used to wear linen surplice, and evermore had their head shaven: Which thing seemeth to have been derived from them unto our time, from hand to hand. For they, that among us Minister God's Service, and serve the Holy Altars, are forbidden to suffer the hear of their head, or their beard to grow: and in their Divine service use Linen Garments. 
Epiphani. Lib. 3. Haeresi. 51. De Collyridienis, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Nazianzen. ad Heronem.  Epiphanius saith, that the Heretics called Collyridiani, used to set forth, & to carry about Bread (no doubt, but the Sacrament) in the Honour of the Blessed Virgin Marie. Nazianzenus seemeth thus to complain of some such unseemly behaviours in his time: Quid referam, saith he, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉? What shall I speak of the Holy Mysteries turned now into a play, or a Comedy? For so Claudius Du Saints your own Doctor expoundeth these words, Mysteria in comoedias conversa.  
Of the like disorder of the Heathens, Apuleius seemeth to say, Dicimus Deos incedere humanis pedibus: We tell you, that our Gods go on men's feet. The whole difference between you, and them, in this behalf, standeth only in this, that your God goeth on Horse feet, 
Claud. Du Saints, De Liturgijs. In Praefat. Apuleius, Lib. 11.  and their on man's feet.  
But the Holy Sacrament of Christ's Death was never appointed unto us to this end, to be carried thus about in open show: but only to be received, as Christ himself commanded, in remembrance of his Body, and Blood. And therefore S. 
Cyprian. De Coena Domini. Augusti. Contra Faustum, Lib. 20. Cap. 13.  Cyprian saith, Recipitur, non includitur: It is received: it is not shut up.  
That ye allege, as out of S. Augustine, that the Painimes found fault with the Christian people, for Honour done to the Body, & Blood of Christ, under your forms of Bread, & Wine, it is an open, and a manifest Untruth. For S. Augustine in that place speaketh not one word, neither of the Body, and Blood of Christ: nor of your forms, and Accidents: nor of any manner Adoration, or honour done unto the Sacrament. It shall behove you to write hereafter more advisedly: Otherwise the Learned will say, ye either know not, or care not, 
Artic. 8. Divi. 24  what ye writ. This Objection of S. Augustine is answered more at large in my Former Reply.  
touching the matter, 
Augu. De Civitate Dei, Lib. 1. Cap. 29.  S. Augustine saith, Deus meus ubique Praesens est, ubique totus, nusquam inclusus: qui possit adesse secretus, abbess non motus: My God is everywhere Present, everywhere whole, shut up, or enclosed nowhere: Able secretly to be Present, 
Chrysost. De jeiunijs. & Lectione Geneseos.  and to be absent without moving. And S. Chrysostom saith, Magnum, crede mihi, bonum est, Scire, quid sit Creatura, & quid sit Creator: & quae sint Opera, quis verò Opifex. Si enim hoc diligenter scirent discernere Haeretici, nunquam utique omnia confunderent, &, quae Sursum sunt, facerent Deorsum. Non dico, quòd Coelum, & Stellas deorsum, terram autem sursum ducerent: sed quòd Regem ab excelsis Sedibus deducentes cum Creaturis, & Operibus collocaverint: Creaturam verò Divinis honoribus affecerint. Believe me, it is a great matter, to understand, what is the Creature, and what is God the creature: what are the Works, and what is the Woorkeman. For, if these Heretics could make diligent difference hereof, they would not thus make confusion of all things, nor place those things beneath, that be above. I mean not, They either pull down the Heaven, or the Stars, or set up the Earth (in their Place): But that they pull down the King himself from his high throne, and place him amongst his works and Creatures: and of the other side, worship a Creature with Godly Honour.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 2.  
Besides, where they say, and sommetime do persuade fools, that they are able by their Masses to distribute, and apply unto men's commodity all the Merits of Christ's Death, yea, although many times the parties think nothing of the matter, and understand full little, what is done, this is a Mockery, a Heathenish fancy, and a very joy. For it is our Faith, that applieth the Death, and Cross of Christ to our benefit, & not the Act of the massing Priest. Faith had in the Sacraments (saith Augustine) doth justify, and not the Sacraments. 
Origen. ad Roma. Li. 3. Cap. 3.  And Origen saith: Christ is the Priest, the Propitiation, and Sacrifice: which Propitiation cometh to every one by mean of Faith. And so, by this reckoning, we say, that the Sacraments of Christ, without Faith, do not once profit these, that be a live: a great deal less do they profit those that be dead.  

M. harding.  

* Untruth enclosed. For this is your Catholic Doctrine, as shall appear.  least any piece of your Apology should be without a witness, for proof that ye are his children, who is the father of lies: ye make us to affirm, that by our Masses we distribute and apply to men indifferently, how: so ever they be disposed, for so ye mean, as it appeareth partly by that ye say here, and special by your Doctrine other wheres uttered, all the Merits of Christ's Death. But tell us, 
† Your own Scholastical Catholic Doctoures, M. Harding. Read the Answer.  who ever taught this Doctrine in the Catholic Church?  
Yea, God is so good, and prone to bestow his mercy, that, not only when a man is through faith prepared for it, he giveth it abundantly unto him: but also though he of his own part have no faith presently, yet for others sake, which are Gods dearly beloved friends, he farethe the better, and hath that gift obtained to him. 
* A proper shift. We speak of Sacraments: M. harding answereth us of Prayer.  As, when S. Steven prayed at his death for those, that persecuted him, for whom prayed he then, but for those, who had no Faith at all in Christ? And when this grace was given unto them, as that from their jewishness they came to the faith of Christ, who shall exclude that blessed Martyr from this worship and honour, that through his prayer, as by one special mean, that grace was applied unto them?  
What effect his prayer took, 
The effect of S. Steuens Prayer. Act 9 Serm. 1. de Sanctis. Contra duas Epist. Pelagian Ad Bonifacium, Lib. 1. Ca 19 Heb. 5.  if any man thereof doubt, he may think it to have wrought much for the benefit of others of less malice, seeing that it did so much in Paul. Who as the Scripture saith, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against Christ's Disciples. was so changed and converted, that of a Persecutor he became an Apostle. For, as S. Augustine writeth, Si Sanctus Stephanus sic non orasset, Ecclesia Paulum non haberet: If S. Steven had not prayed so, the Church should not have had Paul. Now, if those that be no Priests, without public Authority of Consecrating the Body and Blood of Christ, yet by way of prayer do obtain, that men be converted to the Faith, which is the applying of one fruit of Christ's merits, much more the public Minister, and Bishop, which assumpted from among men, is ordained for men, in matters belonging to God, that he may offer up gifts and Sacrifices for sins.  
And now if ye list to learn what kind of applying we use in our Masses, 
The applying of Christ's Death  we do offer up unto God first, 
What kind of applying is in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Lib. 1. de vocat. Gentium, Ca 4.  
† Untruth, P●asphemous, and horrible  his Son, representing his passion, and celebrating the memory of the same 
* Untruth. For Christ ●eu 〈◊〉 bade you to offer him up unto his Father.  according to Christ's institution.  
But what measure of good we procure them, to God only is that known. If (as the Learned Bishop Prosper saith) the grace of our Saviour pass over some Persons (as we see it to happen) and if the Prayer of the Church (wherein the Sacrifice is contained, after S. Augustine's Mind) be not admitted for them: it is to be referred to the secret iudgèmentes of God's justice, and it is to be acknowledged, that the depth of this secret may not be opened in this life.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Thus ye say, M. harding: Ye make us to affirm, that by our Masses we distribute; and apply to men indifferently the Merits of Christ's Death: how so ever they be disposed in token, that ye are the Children of him, who is the Father of lies. Therefore ye say, Tell us, who ever taught this Doctrine in the Catholic Church?  
If ye be so unskilful, M. harding, and so far to seek in your own Doctors, than it may please you to understand, that the most Catholic Pillars of your Catholic Church have even thus taught us. Thomas de Ʋio, otherwise called Caietanus, a Catholic Cardinal of your Catholic Church of Rome, in the Conference he had at Augusta in Germany with Doctor Luther, said thus, Fides non est necessaria accessuro ad Eucharistiam: 
Paralip. Vrsper. Anno. 1518.  Faith is not necessary for him, that will receive the Sacrament of thanks giving. notwithstanding otherwheres he acknowledgeth, this was an error: and confesseth, it was commonly received and believed of many, even in your Catholic Church of Rome. Thus he writeth. In hoc videtur communis multorum error, 
Cardinal Caie●anus, De Vsis Spiritualium, Quae. 3.  quod putant, hoc Sacrificium ex solo Opere Operato habere certum Meritum, vel certam satisfactionem, quae applicatur huic, vel illi: Herein standeth the Common Error of many, that they think, this Sacrifice hath a certain Mente, or Satisfaction, which is applied to this man, or to the man (not by mean of the Faith of the receiver, but) by the Only mean of the Work, that is wrought (by the Priest). 
Biel. Lection 81. jacob. De Valentia, Sermo. 2. De Epiphania.  Gabriel Biel saith, The Priest receiveth the Sacrament: and the virtue thereof passeth into all the Members of the Church. jacobus de Valentia saith, The Priest is the Mouth of the Body. Therefore, when the Priest receiveth the Sacrament, all the Members are refreased. Again he saith, Nos Communicamus Ore Sacerdotis: We, that be of the People, do Communicate, or receive the Sacrament, by the Mouth of the Priest. 
Thom. De venerabil. sacramet. Aliar. Cap. 1  Thomas of Aquine your Angelical Doctor saith thus, Sicut Corpus Domini semel oblatum est in Cruce pro debito Originali, ita offertur iugiter pro quotidianis delictis in Altari: As the Body of our Lord was once offered upon the Cross for the debt of Original Sin, so it is daily offered upon the Aultare for the debt of Daily Sins.  
This Doctrine, not long sithence, was holden for Catholic, and was strongly maintained by your Catholic Doctors. Catharinus, one of the worthies of your Late Chapter of trident, 
Catharinus, De Incruento Sacrificio Novi, & Aeterni Testaments.  saith, Apparet, quòd pro peccatis sub Novo Testamento, post acceptam Salutaris Hostiae in Baptismo efficaciam commissis, non habemus pro Peccato Hostiam illam, quam Christus obtulit pro Peccato Mundi, & pro delictis Baptismum Praecedentibus: Non enim nisi semel ille Mortuus est: Et ideò semel duntaxat hostia illa ad hunc effectum applicatur: It appeareth, that for the Sins committed under the New Testament, after that we have received in Baptism the Power of the Healthful Sacrifice, we have no more that sacrifice for Sin, which Christ once offered for the Sin of the World, and for sins committed before Baptism. For Christ never died but once. And therefore that Sacrifice of Christ Crucified is applied unto us once only to this effect.  
Hereby M. harding, ye may see, that this Doctrine lacketh no defence amongst your Catholics. 
The applying of Christ's Death.  The sum, and meaning hereof is this, That our Sins committed after Baptism, are not foregéeven by the Death of Christ, but Only by the Sacrifice of the Mass. Which thing, what it seemeth to you, I cannot tell: But unto all Godly ears it seemeth an horrible great blasphemy.  
Here, to speak of Prayers, specially in so large a sort, it was far impertinente to your purpose, as being utterly no part of this question.  
The Merits of Christ's Death, whereof we entreat, are conveyed unto us by God, and received by us. God conveyeth them to us only of his Mercy: and we receive them Only by Faith. But the ways, whereby either to procure God's Mercy, or to enkindle our Faith, are many and sundry. God's Mercy is procured sommetime by Prayer, sommetime by other Means. But to breed, or increase Faith in us, there are more ways, then can be reckoned. Some men are moved Only by the Hearing of God's Word: Some others by the beholding, 
Euseb. Li. 4. Ca 8  and weighing of God's Miracles. justinus the Martyr was first alluered to the Faith by the cruelty of the tyrants, and by the Constancy, and Patience of God's Saints. 
Cyprian. De Laude Martyrij.  S. Cyprian saith, Tanta est vis Martyrij, ut per illam credere etiam cogatur, qui te vult occidere: So great is the Power of martyrdom, that thereby even he is forced to believe, that would kill thee. S. Augustine saith, 
August. Confess. Lib 3. Cap. 4.  He was stirred up to come to Christ, by reading a Heathen Book written by Cicero, called Hortensius. Thus he saith, Ille Liber mutavit affectum meum, & ad ●eipsum, Domine, mutavit Preces meas: That (Heathen) Book changed my mind, and turned my prayers, o Lord, unto thee.  
among other causes, the Sacraments serve specially to direct, and to aid our Faith: 
August. Contra Faustum. Lib. 19 Cap. 16.  For they are, as S. Augustine calleth them, Verba visibilia, Visible Words: and Scales, and Testimonies of the Gospel.  
All this notwithstanding, we say, It is neither the Work of the Priest, nor the Nature of the Sacrament, as of itself, that maketh us partakers of Christ's Death, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 80.  but only the Faith of the Receiver. S. Augustine saith, unde est ista tanta Virtus Aquae, ut Corpus tangat, & Cor abluat, nisi faciente Verbo? Non quia dicitur, sed quia creditur: From whence hath the Water this great power, that it toucheth the Body, and washeth the Heart, saving by the Woorkinge of the Word? Not for that it is pronounced, but for that it is believed.  
So saith Hesychius, 
Helych. in levit. Lib. 4. Cap. 14. cyril. in levit. Lib. 3.  Gratia Dei comprehenditur Sola Fide: The Grace of God (of our part) is received by Only Faith. So saith Cyrillus, Siclus Fidei nostrae Formam habet. Si enim Fidem obtuleris, tamquam Pretium, à Christo, velut Ariete immaculato in hostiam dato, accipies Remissionem Peccatorum: The Sickle hath the Form of our Faith. For if thou offer up thy Faith, as the Price, thou shalt receive Remission of thy Sins, from Christ that unspotted Ram, that was geeven for a Sacrifice.  
Where ye say, ye offer up Christ, the Son of god, Really, and Substantially unto God the Father, If ye speak in your dream, it is a very pleasant fantasy: but if ye be awake, and know, what ye say, then is it a great blasphemy: as in my Former Reply it may appear more at large. 
Art●●eul. 17.     

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 1.  
And as for their brags, they are wont to make of their Purgatory, though we know, it is not a thing so very late risen amongst them, yet is it no better than a blockish, and an old wives devise.  

M. harding.  
Purgatory seemeth not to us a thing, that we should much brag of, no more than ye● will brag of Hel. 
Power over Purgatory.  We tremble at the remembrance of it rather than brag of it. Well, how so ever it be, 
Purgatory acknowledged by the Defenders to be of antiquity. Apoc. 21.  will ye, nil ye (we see) 
* No marvel. It was received of the Painimes, long ere the Apostles were borne.  ye be driven to confess the same to be no new thing.  
In deed if you call them Papists, among whom the Doctrine of praying for the dead, 
‡ Untruth. Read the Answer.  whereof necessarily followeth the Doctrine of Purgatory, is delivered, taught and holden: then are the Apostles, who delivered it by Tradition, (as Chrysostom and Damascene report) Papists. first, 
* This fantasy were sommewhat, if we had no Purgation in Christ's Blood.  forasmutche as nothing that is defiled cometh into the Kingdom of Heaven, and some depart out of this Life, though in the Faith of Christ, and Children of the everlasting Kingdom, yet not thoroughly and perfectly clean: it remaineth, that such after this Life before they come to the place of everlasting joy, 
2. Cor. 7.  have their Purgation. Furthermore the Apostle saith, seeing than we have these promises dearly beloved, let 
‡ A doughty Argument, to prove Purgatory.  us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the Flesh, and Spirit, making perfit our satisfaction in the fear of God. Who seeth not hereof to follow, that to many, which be justified, somewhat of satisfaction, and Holiness lacketh? Which if they be taken from hence, before they attain to the measure of Holiness requisite, be they not then after this Life in state to be purged and cleansed?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here are we come to the Paper Walls, and Painted Fieres of Purgatory. For so it liked M. Harding, not long sithence, pleasantly to sport at it in the pulpits, as a bug meet only to fray Children. Yet now, upon better advise, and deeper study, he tremblethe, God wot, and quaketh for fear, to remember the torments, that some body hath sithence told him to be there. How be it, Let him not so much dismay himself. The Pope, as he either first made it, or received it by hand from the Heathens, and first allowed it, even so hath he the whole jurisdiction, and Power over it, and commandeth in, and out at his pleasure.  
Whether ye make brags hereof, or no, I leave it in question. Certainly for this, 
Panormi. De Electione. Cap. Licet.  and other like causes, One of your fellows saith, Papa potest, quicquid Deus ipse potest: The Pope can do, what so ever God himself can do. An other saith, Animae existentes in Purgatorio, sunt de jurisdictione Papae: & Papa, si vellet, 
johan. Angelus.  posset totum Purgatorium evacuare: The Souls being in Purgatory, are (in the Pope's peculiar, and) under the Pope's jurisdiction: and the Pope, if it might stand with his pleasure, were able (to make jail delivery, and) to avoid all Purgatory. And to this purpose, 
Clemens Pap. 6. in Bulla.  The Pope himself Commandeth, and Chargeth the Angels of God, to fetch forth from thence, whom so ever, and how many so ever he will have delivered, as hereafter in a place more convenient it shall better appear. If these seem to be no brags, then let them hardly be called by some other name, that may seem to please you better.  
Ye take good hold, in that we Confess, This Imagination of Purgatory is no New fancy. How be it, your advantage herein is not so great. There have been errors, and great errors from the beginning. S. Augustine saith, Origenes ipsum Diabolum, atque Angelos eius post graviora pro Meritis, & diuturniora supplicia, 
August. de Cluitate Dei, Lib. 21. Cap. 17.  ex illis Cruciatibus eruendos, atque sociandos Sanctis Angelis credidit: The Ancient Learned Father Origen believed, that the Devil himself, and his Angels, after great, and long punishment suffered for their wickedness, shallbe delivered from their torments, and shallbe placed (in Heaven) with the Holy Angels of God. 
Origen. in ●pist. ad Roman. Ca 6 Lib. 5.  Origen himself saith, There were some, that thought, that Christ should go down into Helle, and there be Crucified again, to save them, that by his preaching, and Former Death could not be saved. Again the same Origen saith of him, self, Ego puto, quòd post Resurrectionem ex mortuis indigebimus Sacramento cluente nos▪ 
Origen. in Lucan Homil 14.  atque Purgante: I think, that after we shall rise again from the Dead, we shall have need of the Sacrament (of Baptism) to wash us, and to Purge us clean.  
S. Augustine saith, 
The Antiquity of Purgatory.  Quidam nullas Poenas, nisi Purgatorias, volunt esse post Mortem: Some men will have no punishment to be after Death, but only the pains of Purgatory.  
Even in Paul's time there were some, 
August. de Cluitate Dei, Lib 21. Cap. 13. 1. Cor. 15. Council Cartha. 3. Canon. 6.  that, being alive, were Baptized for the dead. And by the Council of Carthage it appeareth, there were somme, that used to thrust the Sacrament into the Mouth of the Dead Body, meaning thereby, as it may be thought, to procure some relief for the Soul. The words be these: Placuit, ut Corporibus defunctorum Eucharistia non detur. Dictum est enim à Domino, Accipite, & Edite. Cadavera autem nec accipere possunt, nec Edere: We think it good, that the Sacrament be not given to the Bodies of the Dead. For our Lord saith, Take, and Eat. But Dead Bodies can neither Take, nor Eat. These were Ancient Errors in old time, as it is easy to be seen.  
As for the fantasy of Purgatory, it sprang first from the Heathens, and was received amongst them in that time of darkness, long before the coming of Christ: as it may plainly appear by Plato, & Vergile, in whom ye shall find described at large, 
Plato in Timaeo. Aeneid 6. August. De Civita. Li. 7. Ca 7.  the whole Common Weal, and all the Orders, and Degrees of Purgatory. S. Augustine saith, The Old Heathen Romans had a Sacrifice, which they called Sacrum Purgatorium, A Purgatory Sacrifice.  
You say, If they be Papists, that Defend Purgatory, then must Christ's Apostles needs be Papists. For they have taught us Purgatory, (not by any word that ever they wrote, but) by Tradition. This is as true, as that S. Peter said Mass in Rome with a Golden Cope, and a Triple Crown. unless perhaps some man will think, 
1. Tim. 6.  where as S. Paul saith, Homines Privati Veritate, existimantes quaestum esse pietatem: They be men void of Truth, thinking that their gain is Godliness: 
2. Pet. 2.  Or, where as S. Peter saith, Per avaritiam fictis sermonibus nego●iabuntur de vobis: Through covetousness by feigned talk they shall make sale of you, that by these words they gave us Warning of the very Form▪ and Doctrine of your Purgatory. For better Authorities, than these be, I reckon, ye can lightly find none.  
As for Prayer for the Dead, which, ye say, ye have received by Tradition from the Apostles, notwithstanding it were granted to be true, yet doth it not evermore import Purgatory. For Chrysostom, and Basile in their Liturgies make their Public, and solemn Prater in this sort: Offerimus tibi rationalem hunc cultum, 
Basil. & Chrys. in Liturgijs.  pro in Fide requiescentibus, Maioribus, Patribus, Patriarchis, Prophetis, & Apostolis, Praeconibus, & Euangelistis, Martyribus, Confessoribus, etc. Praecipuè verò pro Sanctissima, immaculata, super omnes benedicta, Domina nostra Deipara, & semper Virgin Maria: We offer, O Lord, unto thee this reasonable service for them, that rest in Faith, Our Elders, Our Fathers, The patriarchs, the Prophets, the Apostles, the Preachers, the Evangelists, the Martyrs, the Confessors, etc. Specially for the most Holy, without spot, blessed above all, our Lady God's Mother, and ever Virgin Marie. S. Cyprian saith in like manner, Sacrificamus pro Martyribus, 
Cyprian. Lib. 3. Epist. 6.  We make Sacrifice for the Martyrs. Yet, I trow, ye will not conclude hereof, that the patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Preachers, Evangelists. Martyrs, Confessors, and the Blessed Virgin Marie, were all in Purgatory. Otherwise ye would much enlarge the Pope's Dominion.  
Of the other side, in your Masses for the Dead, ye have used to pray thus: Libera eos à Tartaro: è profundo Lacu: ex Ore Leonis: Deliver them O Lord (not from Purgatory, but) from Hell: from that deep dungeon: from the Lion's Mouth. I trow, ye are not so much thrall unto the Pope, that ye will turn, the Lion's Mouth, the Deep dungeon, and all the world, and Helle itself, into Purgatory. Thus ye see, M. harding, by your own Doctrine, ye may pray for the Dead, 
Vncleansed.  and yet be never the near of your Purgatory.  
But to help forward the matter, at the least by some Natural reason, ye say thus, For as much as nothing, that is defiled, cometh into the Kingdom of Heaven, and some depart out of this Life, though in the Faith of Christ, and Children of the everlasting Kingdom, yet not thoroughly and perfitly clean, it remaineth, that such, after this Life, before they come to the Place of everlasting toy, have their Purgation. To warrant your Minor in this Argument, ye bring in the words of S. Paul, as rightly, and as well to purpose, as your manner otherwise is commonly to handle the Scriptures: Though our outward man be corrupted, 
2. Cor. 4.  and weakened (which words S. Ambrose expoundeth thus, By Oppression, by Stripes, by Hunger, by Thirst, by Cold, by Nakedness) Yet our Soul is renewed, and made stronger day by day. And again, Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of Flesh, 
2. Cor. 7.  and Spirit. Ergo, say ye, We must confess by force of these Words, that there must needs be a place, wherein to Purge us clean after this Life. Here may we a little put you in remembrance by the way: If we cleanse ourselves, according to these words of S. Paul, from all manner filthiness, both of Flesh, and of Spirit, I beseech you, what remaineth there then further, to be Purged in Purgatory?  
How be it, to prove the Imperfection, and corruption of Nature, that evermore hangeth in our Flesh, ye might, in my judgement, have alleged many other Authorities, 
isaiah. 64. job. 15.  far more pregnante, and clearer, than these. isaiah saith, All our righteousness is like unto a fowl stained clout: job saith, Inter Sanctos eius nemo est Fidelis: Et Coeli non sunt mundi in Conspectu eius: among the Saints of God, there is none faithful: 
Roman. 7. Augu. in psal. 143  The Heavens are not Clean in his sight. S. Paul saith, I know there is no good thing in my Flesh. S Augustine saith, Let the Apostles of Christ themselves say, O Lord, foregeeve us our offences.  
Such imperfections, and Corruptions, while we live, we evermore carry in our Flesh. Therefore, say you, To be Purged hereof, that we may be clean, and fit to enter into Heaven, we must needs pass through the Fieres of Purgatory. By this mean ye have well enlarged the Pope's jurisdiction. For this being true, neither is there, nor never was there any Creature, neither Prophet, nor Apostle, nor Martyr, nor Angel, nor Archangel, nor Heaven itself, Christ only excepted, but of force must be cleansed in your Purgatory. 
Origen. in Psal. 36. Homil 3.  And therefore Origen, a great fautoure of this error, saith thus, Vt ego arbitror, Omnes nos necesse est venire in illum Ignem: etiamsi Paulus aliquis sit, vel Petrus: As I suppose, all we must needs come into that Fiere: Yea although it be Paul, or Peter. 
Origen. in Lucan Homil. 14.  And therefore he saith, as it is alleged before, Ego puto, quòd & post Resurrectionem ex Mortuis, indigebimus Sacramento eluente nos, atque Purgante. Nemo enim absque sordibus Resurgere poterit. Neque ullam puto posse animam reperiri, quae universis statim vitijs careat: I think, that after the Resurrection from the dead, we shall need the Sacrament (of Baptism) to wash us, and to make us clean. For noman can rise again without filth. Neither do I think, there can any Soul be found, void from all manner of sin.  
But all these be vain fantasies: I mean, as well these of M. harding, as also the other of Origen. 
1. johan. 1.  S. john saith, Sanguis jesu Christi filii Dei purgat nos ab omni Peccato: The Blood of jesus Christ the Son of God Purgeth us, and maketh us clean from all our Sins. The Prophet saith, In what hourre so ever a sinner shall repent, and mourn for his sins, he shallbe safe. isaiah saith, If your Sins shallbe as red as Scarlet, 
isaiah. 1. Hebrae. 1.  yet shall they be made as white, as snow. S. Paul saith, Christus Purgationem Peccatorum nostrorum fecit: Christ (by his Blood) hath wrought the Purgation of our Sins. 
Vncleansed.  Therefore. S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. De Passione Christi.  Sanguis tuus, Domine, non quaerit ultionem: Sanguis tuus lavat crimina, Peccata condonat: Thy Blood, o Lord, seeketh no revenge: Thy Blood washeth our Sins, and Pardoneth our trespasses.  
And, whereas you tell us, out of some Heathenish fantasy, that Sins cannot be washed away, but with long tract of time, and pain in Purgatory, S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. De Coena Domini.  In eodem articulo temporis, cùm iam anima festinet ad exitum, & egrediens ad labia expirantis emerserit, Poenitentiam Clementissimi Dei benignitas non aspernatur. Nec Serum est, quod Verum est: In that very moment of time, even when the Soul is ready to pass, and is even at the lips of the party ready to yield up the Spirit, the goodness of our most merciful God refuseth not repentance. And what so ever is truly done, is never too late.  
S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 27.  Latro in Cruce neque uno die opus habebat. Et quid dico, uno die? Neque brevi hora. Tanta est Dei erga nos Misericordia: The Thief on the Cross needed not so much as one day, to repent himself. What speak I of one day? No, he needed not one hour. So great is the Mercy of God toward us.  
Of the other side, if any man depart hence without repentance, S. Augustine saith, 
August. Epist. 80.  Imparatum inveniet illum Dies Domini, quem Imparatum invenerit suae vitae huius ultimus dies: Him shall the day of the Lord find unprovided, whom the last day of this life findeth unprovided. 
Ambrosi. De Bono Mortis.  S. Ambrose saith, Qui hîc non accipit Remissionem Peccatorum, ibi non erit: He that here in this life receiveth not Remission of his Sins, shall not be there. And S. Jerome expounding these words of Christ, Thou shalt not go forth thence, until thou have paid the last farthing, saith, thus, 
Hierony. in Lamentationes Hieremiae, Li. 1. Cap. 1. August. De Sermon. Domini in Monte, Lib. 1.  Significat semper non exiturum else: quia semper soluat novissimum quadrantem, dum sempiternas Poenas terrenorum Peccatorum luit: Christ's meaning is, that he shall never come out: for that he must evermore pay the last farthing, whiles he suffereth everlasting punishment for his Sins committed in this world.  
So saith S. Augustine, Donec soluas novissimum quadrantem: Miror, si non came significat poenam, quae vocatur Aeterna: Until thou pay the last farthing: I marvel, but he m●●●eth that pain, which is called everlasting.  
Hereby, M. harding, I think, it may partly appear, that you maintain your painted Fire, and Paper Walls, with painted Authorities, and Paper Reasons. Verily the Christian people of the east Church of God, which sommetime was as great, and as famous, as the Church of the West, notwithstanding they believed in God, and his Christ, and knew there was both Hell, and Heaven, yet in your Purgatory they had no skill. One of your Doctoures saith, 
Alphonsus De Haeresibus. Li. 8. De Indulgetijs.  Vsque in Hodiernum diem Purgatorium non est a Graecis creditum: Until this day, of the Grecians, or of the east Church, Purgatory was never believed. Therefore ye cannot justly say, that your fantasy herein was evermore accounted Universal, or Catholic.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 2.  
Augustine in deed sommetime saith, 
Augu. in Psal. 85.  there is such a certain place: sommetime he denieth not, but there may be such a one: sommetime he doubteth: sommetime again he utterly denieth, there is any at all, and thinketh, that men are therein deceived by a certain Natural good will, they bear their friends departed. But yet of this one error hath there grown up such a harvest of those massmongers, that, the Masses being sold abroad commonly in every Corner, the Temples of God became shops, to get money: and silly souls were borne in hand, that nothing was more necessary to be bought. In deed there was nothing more gainful for these men to sell.  

M. harding.  
Well railed. If your reasons, or Authorities were so pithy, as your mocks and scoffs be spiteful, ye were to be heard. But thanks be to God, that such shrewd beasts have short horns. 
Act. 25.  Now to S. Augustine. And as Festus said to S. Paul, Haste thou appealed to Caesar? to Caesar shalt thou go: So say we to you, though not having that Authority over you, which Festus had over S. Paul: To Augustine ye refer this matter, and by Augustine shall ye be judged.  
I would allege unto you sundry places of the 
* It was a good point of skill, with a good countenance to pass them over.  Scriptures, which may Sufficiently prove Purgatory to a Christian man, that is not contentious, but that will we do hereafter as occasion serveth. Now to Saint Augustine. 
S. Augustine affirmeth Purgatory in plain and express words. 1. Cor. 3.  We say plainly, that S. Augustine affirmeth Purgatory, and that it 
‡ Untruth. It shallbe showed. Read the Answer.  cannot be showed where he doubteth of it, much less where he utterly denieth any such to be. In sundry places of his works he expoundeth the words of S. Paul to the Corinthians of Purgatory, where the Apostle saith, that the works, which be builded upon the foundation (which is Christ) shallbe tried by Fire. In the 21. Book de Civitate Dei, after that he hath declared his judgement touching pains of diverse sorts, which men suffer for Sins committed, he saith thus: But pains temporal some suffer in this life only: some after their Death: some both now and also then, yet before that most severe and last judgement.  
May it therefore please you Sirs, to read S. Augustine in some such places (for to read all that he hath written to that end were very much, 
O, so careful this good man is for our cares.  and a great let to your domestical cares) and I think verily ye will secretly agree in judgement with us, though for shame and consideration of the stage ye play your part on, openly the same ye will not confess. And therefore in his book de Haeresibus ad Quoduultdeum, he condemneth Aërius of Heresy (and so consequently all others that be of his opinion) because to the Heresies of the Arians he had added this, also, that none ought to pray, or make oblation for the dead.  
Where ye make S. Augustine very uncertain in this point, as though he said sommetime there is such a certain place, sometime there may be such a one, sometime he doubted of it, sometime plainly denied any such to be: either ye understand not S. Augustine, or ye say contrary to your own knowledge. Verily ye be too bold with him. 
‡ Untruth manifest. Read S. Augustine's words in the Answer.  first that he denieth Purgatory, that is false. And where ye allege Hypognostica in the margin of your book, read it once again at my request, and yourselves will say: the place proveth not your purpose. 
Lib. 5. Hypognostic●n.  The Author of that work, whether he were S. Augustine, which Erasmus believeth not, or who so ever he was, denieth not Purgatory: but that after the day of general judgement there is any place of everlasting rest, or pain, but the Kingdom of Heaven, and Hell, that he denieth. Which we also deny. And there he speaketh against the Pelagians, 
Haeres. 88  who, as S. Augustine writeth of them ad Quoduultdeum, promised to infants dying without Baptism a certain everlasting and blessed life without and besides the Kingdom of God. Which Heresy in sundry places he reproveth. It seemeth the word Purgatorium, noted in the margin of that book 
* Untruth. For the margin was so noted by Erasmus.  by thunlearned Printer, beguiled you. Which showeth how profoundly ye be seen in the Doctores. 
What is that S. Augustine doubted of touching Purgatory.  The thing, he doubted of, touching this matter, is this: Whether those temporal pains do only punish for the 
‡ Untruth, blasphemous against the Blood of Christ. Read the Answer.  Satisfaction of the justice of God, or also do purge and correct the souls of the dead in such wise, as temporal pains are wont to do in this life. But now, whether the smart, and sorrow of things left behind, which proceeded in this life of Carnal affection, remain also to the souls after their departure from the Body, whereof S. Augustine showeth himself to stand in doubt in Enchiridio ad Laurent. cap. 68 & 69. and whether the fire which souls feel in Purgatory as it paineth them, 
* O grave Commentary: and a wi●e matter to be called in question.  so also do by degrees diminish and correct those venial and Secular affections, which they carried with them at their Death, or whether death itself do so end them, as there remain not any correction of the mind yet being vicious, 
Scriptures to prove Purgatory.  but only the punishment of the sin paste: that is the thing, whereof S. Augustine 
‡ This whole matter is concluded with seeming, and likely hood.  seemeth to have doubted. In effect his question is, whether the Fire of Purgatory be not 
* Double Fire in Purgatory: Double Folly.  double. The one which punisheth the Venial sin passed: the other which diminisheth and taketh away th'affection of sin yet remaininge. Of the first he doubteth not: of the other he saith, non redargno, 
De Civita. Dei, Lib. 21. Cap. 26.  quia forsitan verum est, I say not against it, for per adventure it is true.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We raite at you, M. harding, even as Christ railed at certain others, in whoes steps ye seem to tread, for that they had made of the House of God a Cave of thieves.  
The places of the Scriptures, which ye thought it best to pass over, and whereby your Purgatory by your judgement undoubtedly may be proved, if a man be not very contentious, 
johan 5.  I trow, be these: Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my Word, and believeth in him, that sent me, hath everlasting Life: and shall not come into damnation: but hath passed from Death unto Life. Or, that isaiah the Prophet saith of Christ: 
isaiah. 53.  He was wounded for our transgressions: He was broken for our iniquities: The chastisement of our Peace was upon him: and with his stripes we were made whole. Or, that S. Paul saith, Christ hath taken the Obligation, that was against us, 
Coloss. 2. Apocal. 14.  and hath fastened it unto his Cross. Or, that S. john saith, Blessed be the Dead, that die in the Lord. Even so saith the Spirit. For they rest from their labours: and their Works follow them. He saith not, they be in Purgatory: but, they rest from their Labours. 
Apocal. 7.  And again, They shall hunger no more: They shall thirst no more. For the Lamb, which is in the mids of the throne, shall govern them, and shall lead them (not into Purgatory but,) unto the lively Fountains of Waters: and God shall wipe a way all tears from their eyes. These, or such other like Places, I trow, they be, whereby ye assure yourself so certainly of your Purgatory.  
But unto S. Augustine, we have appealed: and to S. Augustine, ye say, we shall go. How be it, if ye consider the matter well, ye shall find, that our appeal lieth not unto S. Augustine. It had been more indi●ferente dealing, to have said with S. bernard, 
Bernard. in Cantica, Serm. 65.  Ad evangelium appellasti: & ad evangelium ibis: Ye have appealed unto the Gospel: and unto the Gospel ye shall go.  
As for S. Augustine, notwithstanding his Authority be great, and his learning deep, yet in these cases, as it shall well appear, he can be but a doubtful judge. And a doubtful judge, so far forth, as he doubteth, is no judge. 
August. ad Laurenti. Ca 67. & Dist. 29. Sciendun.  Your own Canon telleth you, In erroris Labyrinthum nonnulli intricando impingunt, cùm ante judicant, quàm intelligant: Many men giving judgement before they can understand, by entangling themselves, fall into a Maze of error. For how can he pronounce sentence of that, he confesseth, he knoweth not? Or how can he assure us, 
August. In 8. qu. ad Dulcitium q 1.  that is not able to assure himself?  
touching the certainty of this Doctrine, to allege one, or two places out of many, S. Augustine writeth thus: Tale aliquid, etiam post hanc Vitam fieri, incredibile non est: &, utrùm ita sit, quaeri potest: some such thing (he meaneth the Fire of Purgatory) to be after this Life, 
Augu. De Civit. Lib. 21. Cap. 21.  it is not incredible: And whether it be so, or no, 
‡ It may be a question.  It may be a question. Again, Quòd Spiritus Defunctorum, etc. ignem transitoriae Tribulationis inveniant, non redarguo: quia Forsitan Verum est: That the Spirits of the Dead find a Fire of transitory Tribulation, I reprove it not: For 
* Perhaps it is true.  Perhaps it is true. 
Augu. De Fide & Operib ca 16   
Again, Sive ergo in hac Vita tantùm homines ista patiuntur, sive etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam judicia subsequuntur: non abhorret, Quantum Arbitror, 
Quantum arbitror.  à ratione Veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae: 
S. Augustine doubteth.  Therefore whether men suffer such things only in this Life, Or else some such judgements follow even after this Life, 
‡ As much as I think.  As much as I think, 
Augu. De Civit. Lib. 21. Cap. 27.  the understanding of this sentence disagreeth not from the order of the Truth.  
And again he saith, Quis sit iste modus, & quae sint ista Peccata, quae ita impediant perventionem ad Regnum Dei, ut tamen Sanctorum amicorum meritis imperrent indulgentiam, difficillimum est invenire: Periculosissimum definire Ego certè usque ad hoc tempus, cùm inde ●atagerem, ad eorum indaginem pervenire 
* Non potui.  non potui: What mean this is, and what Sins these be, which so let a man from coming unto the Kingdom of God, that they may notwithstanding obtain Pardonne by the Merits of Holy friends, is it very hard to find: and very dangerous to determine. Certainly I me self, notwithstanding great study, 
I could never attain to the knowledge.  and travail taken in that behalf, could never attain to the knowledge of it.  
By these it is plain, that S. Augustine stood in doubt hereof, whether there be any such Purgatory Fire, or no. Therefore undoubtedly he took it neither for an Article of the Christian Faith (for thereof it had not been lawful for him to doubt) nor for any Tradition of the Apostles.  
Ye say, S. Augustine never doubted, whether there were any such Place of Purgatory, or such Fire, or no: But only, whether the torments there do satis●ie the justice of God for Sin, or no: and whether the same torments do by degrees diminish the Venial Sins, and Seculare Affections, which the Parties carried with them, or no. notwithstanding what should any question be raised hereof? Plato, and Vergile, and other Heathen writers, from whom this Doctrine first flowed abroad, would soon have put you quite out of doubt. Vergile hereof amongst others saith thus:  

Quin & supremo cum lumine vita reliquit, 
Aeneid. 6.   
Non tamen omne malum miseris, nec funditus omnes  
Corporeae excedunt pests: Penitus●ue necesse est  
Multa diu concreta modis inolescere miris.  
Ergo exercentur poenis, veterum●ue malorum  
Supplicia expendunt: Aliae panduntur inanes  
Suspensae ad ventos: alijs sub gurgite vasto  
Infectum eluitur scelus, aut exuritur igni.   
But read you S. A●gustine, M. harding: you, I say, that, to use your own words, are so profoundly seen in all the Doctors, that ye may boldly despise all others what so ever: Read, I say, S. Augustine: examine better the Places, and weigh the words: And ye shall find, that he never neither mentioneth, nor toucheth any of these your pretty fantasies: but saith plainly, whether it be so, or no, it may be a question: I reprove it not: For perhaps it is true.  
And are ye so profoundly seen in all the Doctoures, & Scriptures, M. Harding, that ye think, there is either Fire, or Water, or any other Creature, wherewith to satisfy the justice of God against Sin, saving only the Blood of the Lamb of God, that taketh away the Sin of the World? Or think you, that S. Augustine would turn us from the Satisfaction of Christ, and send us to seek for any other? Certainly S. Augustine himself saith, Valeat mihi ad Perfectionem liberationis tantùm Pretium Sanguinis Domini mei: 
Augustin. in Psalm. 25.  Let Only the Price of the Blood of my Lord avail me to the Perfection of my delivery.  
Again he saith, 
Double Fiere.  Quando aliquis se converterit ad Deum, Prorsus illi omnia dimittuntur. Nemo sit sollicitus, 
Augu. De Verbis Domini, Serm. 59  quòd aliquid ei non dimittatur: When so ever any man turneth himself unto God, all things utterly are forgiven him. Let noman be doubtful, lest any thing happily be not forgiven. Chrysostom imagineth God thus to say of a sinner: 
Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 44.  unum tantùm requiro, ut confiteatur peccata, & ab eye desistat: Nec ultrà infero Poenam peccatis: This thing only (saith God) I require of a Sinner, that he confess his Sins (unto me) and leave the same. Afterwards I lay no more punishment upon his Sins. 
Chrysost. De B. Philogonio.  Likewise again he saith, Ego Fideiubeo: Si quis nostrum recedat a Peccatis ex animo, & verè Promittat Deo, se ad illa non rediturum, nihil Deum requisiturum ad Satisfactionem: I will stand bound in God's behalf: If any of us foresake his Sins with all his heart, and make true promiss unto God, that he will no more return unto them, that then God shall require nothing else unto Satisfaction. He, that knoweth not thus much, hath no great cause to vaunt himself of his profound knowledge in the Doctors. But it God's justice against your sin be fully satisfied by the Blood of Christ: If the Only price of our lords Blood have wrought the perfection of your delivery: If there remain nothing unforegeeven: If God require no further punishment: What should you seek for other Satisfaction in your painted Fires, and smokes of Purgatory?  
To conclude, ye say thus, In effect, S. Augustine's question is, whether the Fire of Purgatory be not double. O M. harding, it ye were simple, and meant simply, ye would not so vainly double the point. I beseech you, what double Fire of Purgatory meant S. Augustine? Or where was he ever so double in dealing? By your double Divinity, and Profound knowledge in the Doctoures, ye have at the last skilfully found out a Double Purgatory Fire, and a Double Purgatory. How be it, as you are now troubled about the Fire of your Purgatory: so were some others of your friends, not long sithence, as much troubled about the Water. 
Sir Thomas Moor. Zachar. 9  Sir Thomas Moor said, and held for certain, that in all Purgatory there is no Water: no, not one drop. And that, he said, he would prove by the words of the Prophet Zacharie: Eduxisti vinctos tuos de lacu, in quo non erat Aqua: Thou haste delivered thy Prisoners out of the dungeon, wherein there is no Water.  
Of the other side, 
The Bishop of Rochester. Psalm. 65.  Roffensis saith, Yes, there is in Purgatory good store of Water. And that, he saith, he can prove by the Prophet David: Transivimus per Ignem, & Aquam: & eduxisti nos in Refrigerium: We have passed through Fire, and Water: and thou haste brought us forth into a Place of refreasshinge. Albertus, and Roffensis say, The Executioners, and Ministers of Purgatory, be Holy Angels: Sir Thomas Moor saith, Out of doubt, they be no Angels, but very Devils. So handsomely these dreams agree together.  
To return to the matter, where ye say, We much mistook the place of S. Augustine, being deceived by the Ignorant note in the Margin, where also ye so pleasantly sport yourself with our Profound knowledge in the Doctoures, the Words of S. Augustine, 
August. Hypognosti. Lib. 5.  that ye mean, be these, Primum Locum Fides Catholicorum, Divina Authoritate, Regnum credit esse Coelorum: unde non Baptizatus excipitur: Secundum, Gehennam: ubi omnis Apostata, & à Christi Fide alienus Aeterna Supplicia experietur: Tertium Penitùs ignoramus: imò nec esse in Scriptures Sanctis inveniemus: The First Place the Catholic Faith, by God's Authority, believeth to be the Kingdom of Heaven: From whence, who so ever is not baptized, is excluded: The second Place, the same Catholic Faith believeth to be Hell: Where all Renegates, and who so ever is without the Faith of Christ, shall taste Everlasting punishment. As for any third Place, we utterly know none: neither shall we find in the Holy Scriptures, that there is any such. 
S. Augustine denieth Purgatory.  If these words make not against your Purgatory, yet truly, in any appearance, they make but slenderly for your Purgatory. S. Augustine saith, Any other third place (after this life, besides Heaven, and Helle) we utterly know none. Neither can we find in the Holy Scriptures, that there is any such.  
But if all these three places, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, had been certainly known, and universally received in the Church, & yet besides these three places, the Pelagian Heretics would have devised, as you imagine, an other several Place, to receive the Souls of such Children, as departed out of this life without Baptism, then could not S. Augustine have truly said, Tertium locum ignoramus: We know no third place: But rather he should have said, 
fourth place.  Quartum locum ignoramus, fourth place we know none. For, by your judgement, the doubt had been, not of the third place, but of the fourth. And it had been a great oversight for S. Augustine, in the reckoning only of Four places, to have forgotten One: and specially such a One too, as hath been found more gainful of late years, than the other Three: But his words be plain: Heaven we know: and Hell we know: But any third place besides Heaven, and Hell, we know none.  
This word, Purgatorium, was noted in the Margin, not by the Printer, as you say, but by Erasmus, a man of famous memory: whose name for learning, & judgement, hath at all times among the Learned, been much esteemed: with whom your young Lovanian clergy may not well compare, in the profound knowledge of the Doctors, without great blushing. And thus much, touching this one place of S. Augustine, wherein it hath pleased you so deeply to charge us with gross ignorance. But for better trial of his judgement herein, ye should have considered, what he hath written otherwheres to like purpose.  
In his Epistle to Hesychius he saith thus: 
August. Epist. 80.  In quo quenque invenerit suus novissimus dies, in hoc eum comprehendet mundi novissimus dies. Quoniam qualis in die isto quisque moritur, talis in die illo iudicabitur: In what state his own last day shall find each man, in the same state the last day of the world shall find him. For such as every man in this day shall die, even such in that day shall he be judged. Again, Qualem invenit Dominus, 
August. in Apocalyp. Homil. 11. August. ad Petrum Diacon. Cap. 3.  cùm hinc vocat, talem & judicat: As our Lord findeth a man, when he calleth him hence, even so he judgeth him. And again, Qui in hac vita Deo non placuerit, habebit quidem Poenitentiam in Futuro Soeculo de malis suis: sed indulgentiam in conspectu Dei non inveniet. Quia etsi erit ibi stimulus poenitudinis, nulla tamen erit correctio voluntatis: Who so in this life shall not please God, shall in the world to come have Repentance for his Sins: but Pardonne in the sight of God he shall not find. For although there shallbe there the prick of Repentance, 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 49. Olympiodorus in Ecclesiast. Ca 9  yet there shallbe no amendment of the wil Again he saith, unusquisque cum causa sua dormiet, & cum causa sua resurget: Every man shall die with his own cause, and rise again with his own cause. Olympiodorus saith, In quocunque loco etc. deprehendetur homo, cùm moritur, in eo gradu, atque ordine permanet in Aeternum. In what place, or state so ever a man shallbe found, when he dieth, in the same state, and degree he shall remain for ever.  
But to reckon up all, that might be said in this behalf, it would be long. A simple man, M Harding, without any profound knowledge of the Doctoures, may easily, see, that these sayings will hardly stand with your Doctrine of Purgatory. Your own Roffensis saith, 
Polydor. De Inuentorib. Lib. 8. Cap. 1.  Nemo nunc dubitat Orthodoxus, in Purgatorium sit: De quo tamen apud Priscos, vel nulla, vel quàm rarissima fiebat mentio. Sed & Graecis ad hunc usque diem non est Creditum: Quamdiu enim nulla esset cura de Purgatorio, nemo quaesivit Indulgentias: No Catholic man now doubteth of Purgatory: 
Ceremonies.  Whereof notwithstanding among the Ancient Fathers there is either no mention at all, or very seldom. Yea even until this day the Grecians Believe it not. For so long as there was no care for Purgatory, noman sought after pardons. By which witness it appeareth, that pardons, and Purgatory were brought in jointely both together. And as the case now standeth, and as most men think, the Pope could be contented to lose both Heaven, and Helle, to save his Purgatory.    

The Apology, Cap. 17. Division. 1.  
As touching the multitude of vain, & superfluous Ceremonies, we know, that S. Augustine did grievously complain of them in his own time: & therefore have we cut of a great number of them: because we know, that men's consciences were encumbered about them, and the Churches of God overladen with them. Nevertheless we keep still, & esteem, not only those Ceremonies, which, we are sure, were delivered us from the Apostles: but some others too besides, which we thought might be suffered without hurt to the Church of God: for that we had a desire, that all things in the Holy Congregation might, as S. Paul commandeth, be done with comeliness, & in good order. But, as for all those things, which, we saw, were, either very superstitious, or utterly unprofitable, or noisome, or mockeries, or contrary to the Holy Scriptures, or else unseemly for sober, & discreet people, whereof there be infinite numbers now a days, where the Roman Religion is used, these, I say, we have utterly refused without all manner exception: because we would not have the right worshipping of God to be any longer defiled withsutche follies.  

M. harding.  
S. Augustine, whom ye allege wrongfully against the Ceremonies of the Catholic Church. speaketh only of the cutting away of such manners, and rites, as be crept into some one particular Country, neither contained in Holy Scriptures, nor established by Counsels of Bishops, nor confirmed by Custom of the whole Church. But how prove you by that place, that you may pull down Altars, and Images: disallow the Vow of Poverty, Lente, Oil? etc. S. Augustine referreth the taking away of any Custom, or manner unto dew Authority, exhorting it to be done. Vbi faculras tribuitur: Where Power is given to do it. Neither else may it be done lawfully at all, etc. Ye think, we have many ridiculous, and fond things, in our Ceremonies. If we had, 
* Untruth. For S. Augustine, speaking of his time, saith, Tam multis Praesumptionibus ita plena sunt omnia, etc.  as in deed we have not, would ye laugh at them, as Cham did at the nakedness of his Father Noah? etc. Laugh on ye cursed Cananees: but we will dance before the Ark: we will 
‡ Then be ye circumcised, as Paul was. For this was only a Iewishe Ceremony.  shire our head with Paul, etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This matter had been over cold, had not M. harding a little inflamed his Choler in the end, & cried out upon his Cursed Cananees. His Altars, his Images, his Vows, his Lentes, & his Otles be answered sufficiently otherwheres.  
S. Augustine's words, 
August. Epist. 119  concerning this matter, are pregnante and plain: H●cnimis doleo, quia multa, quae in Divinis Libris saluberrimè praecepta sunt, minùs curantur: & tam multis Praesumptionibus sic plena sunt omnia, etc. This thing grieveth me, that so many things, whole somely commanded in the Holy Scriptures, are not regarded: and of things are full of so many presumptions, 
August. in ead. Epistol.  etc. And again, Quamuis ista contra Fidem non sint, tamen ipsam Religionem, quam Paucissimis, & Manifestissimis Celebrationum Sacramentis Misericordia Dei liberam esse voluit, seruilibus oneribus ita premunt, ut tolerabilior sit conditio judaeorum: qui etsi tempus libertatis non agnoverint, Legalibus tamen sarcinis, non humanis Praesumptionibus subijciuntur: All be it these things be not against the Faith, yet with servile burdens they so oppress our very Religion, which God of his Mercy would have to be free, under very few, and most manifest Sacraments of Divine Service, that the state of the jews is much more tolerable (than the state of the Church of Christ). For the Jews, notwithstanding they knew not the time of Liberty, yet were they subject to the packs, and burdens of the Law (of God): and not unto the devices, and Presumptions of men.  
Of such devices, 
Chrysost in Matthae. Homil. 52.  and Presumptions, Chrysostom saith, Non dicunt, Cur Legem Mosi, sed Cur Traditionem Seniorum transgrediuntur? unde patet, eos multa innovasse, cùm Deus contrà vetuisset, ne quid adderent, aut minuerent. Sed illi, cùm timerent, ne Principatum amitterent, ceu legum Latores, ut Maiores esse viderentur, plurima innovarunt. Quae res ad tantam peruenir nequitiam, ut praecepta sua custodirent magis, quàm Praecepta Dei: The Phariseis say not unto Christ, Wherefore do thy Disciples break the Law of Moses, but, Wherefore do they break the Traditions of the Elders? Whereby it appeareth, that they had altered many things: whereas God had commanded, that they should neither add, nor diminish. But fearing, lest they should lose their Authority, as if they had been Law Makers, to th'end they might seem the greater, they altered much. Which thing (in the end) grew to such a wickedness, that they kept their own Commandments, more than the Commandments of God.  
In like manner saith S. Cyril, 
cyril. in johan. Lib. 8. Cap. 1.  Vellent suam Doctrinam, & Paternas Traditiones ab hominibus potiùs suscipi, atque in admiratione, honoreque haberi. Quicquid igitur Christo credentium accesserit, sibi detractum putant: The Phariseis would, that men should receive, and magnify their Doctrine, and the Traditions of the Fathers: Therefore how many so ever faithful came unto Christ, they thought so many were lost from them.  
It is not true, that ye say, Traditions may not be changed, or abolished without the general Consent of the whole Church. For Ceremonies, as they never grew together at one time in all places, so can they not lightly be abolished together at one time in all places. 
Socrates, Lib. 5. Cap. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Socrates, eod. loco.  Socrates saith plainly, Videtur mihi, Multa modò in his regionibus, modò in illis Consuetudinem obtinuisse: It seemeth unto me, that many things have been received by Custom, now in one Country, and now in an other. Again he saith, In universum certèe, & in omnibus Obseruationibus piarum precum, non possunt duae Ecclesiae inveniri, quae prorsus inter se consentiant: Verily to speak universally, in all manner of Observations, or forms of Common Prayer, there cannot two Churches be found, that agree thoroughly between themselves. S. Augustine saith plainly, Omnia talia, etc., ubi facultas tribuitur, sine omni dubitatione resecanda existimo: All such things, in my judgement, aught to be cut of, 
August. Epist. 19 Dist. 63. Quia Sancta.  as soon as just occasion, or Power is geeven, without any manner of doubting. So saith Pope Stevin, Si nonnulli ex Praedecessoribus, & Maioribus nostris fecerunt aliqua, quae illo tempore potuerunt esse fine culpa, & posteà vertuntur in errorem, & Superstitionem, sine tarditate aliqua, & cum magna Authoritate à posteris destruantur: If sundry of our Predecessors, or Elders have done certain things, which at that time might well be done without hurt, and afterward are turned into error, and superstition, without any staggering, and with great Authority let them be destroyed, and abolished by the Successors.  
We laugh not, as, ye say, at the nakedness of our Father, M. harding. Our Father is in Heaven, the Father of Light, the God of Glory: and in him there is no nakedness. We laugh not at any of these things, but we say with S. Augustine, as it is alleged before, Hoc nimis doleo, etc. This thing very much grieveth me, 
August Epist. 119  that so many things wholesomely commanded in the Holy Scriptures, are not regarded: and that all things are full of so many presumptions: And that, as S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost in Matthae. Homil. 52. Hieremi. 23.  These things are called upon, and more regarded, than the Laws, and Commandments of our Father. Our Father saith of you, and of your Fellows: Volunt facere, ut obliviscatur Populus meus Nominis mei propter somnia sua: They will cause, that my people shall foregeate my name, for love of their Dreams. Our Father saith, 
Hieremi. 2.  Two-evils have my people done: They have forsaken me the Fountain of the Water of Life: and they have ript up to themselves broken Cisterns, that can hold no Water. Our Father saith, 
Hieremi. 23. isaiah. 1. Matthae. 15.  What is chaff unto the Corn? Who hath required these things at your Hands? To be short, hereof Christ himself saith thus, Every plant, that my Heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be pluck up by the Roots.    

The Apology, Cap. 18. Division. 1.  
We make our Prayers in that tongue which all our people, as meet is, may understand, to th'end they may (as S. Paul counseleth us) take common commodity by Common Prayer: even as all the Holy Fathers, and Catholic Bishops, both in the Old, and New Testament did use to Pray themselves, & taught the people to Pray too: lest, as S. Augustine saith, Like Parottes, and Ouselles we should seem to speak, that we understand not. Neither have we any other Mediator, and Intercessor, by whom we may have access to God the Father, but only jesus Christ, in whose only name all things are obtained at his Father's hand. But it is a shameful part, and full of Infidelity, that we see every where used in the Churches of our adversaries, not only in that they will have innumerable sorts of mediators, & that utterly without the Authority of God's Word: (So that, as jeremy saith, the Saints be now as many in numbered, 
jerem. Cap. 2. & 11.  or rather above the numbered of the Cities: and poor men cannot tell, to which Saint it were best to turn them first: And though there be so many, as they cannot be told, yet every one of them hath his peculiar duty, & office assigned unto him by these folks: what thing they ought to ask, what to give, and what to bring to pass) But besides this also, in that their do not only wickedly, but also shamefully call upon the Blessed Virgin Christ's Mother, to have her remember, that she is a Mother, and to command her Son, and to use a Mother's authority over him. 
There is but one Mediator of Salvation, who is Christ only: But the Saints his friends be Mediators of Intercession. 2. Corin. 1.   

M. harding.  
We have but only one Mediator to Salvation jesus Christ, by whose merits God is reconciled unto us. But where ye say, that besides the same one Mediator▪ ye have none other, that 
* This is M. Harding'S legierdumaine. For we speak only of such Mediators, as we ought to pray unto.  may Prai or make Intercession for you, that point of false belief ye may keep for yourselves. We had rather hold with 
‡ As if S. Paul had ever willed us to Pray to Saints.  S. Paul, who as he prayed for all Christian men, so he doubted not to say to the Corinthians, that he hoped to escape danger, A diwantibus vobis in Oratione pro nobis, by the help of you in Prayer for us. If one good man may help an other in this life by Prayer, whiles he hath yet some what of his own to be careful for: much more the Saints, which are dissolved, and reign with Christ, can help us with their perfit Prayer. Ye can tell (I trow) that S. Jerome made this argument within little of twelve hundred years passed. 
Mediator of Salvation.  Neither make we them Gods, as ye would seem to say by the place (which being spoken by the Prophet Hieremie of very Idols) ye apply to the friends of Christ. 
Psalm. 138.  Whom David saith to be unto him most honourable, and their dominion to be most strong. There is no cause why ye should wonder, if diverse Cities do gladly acknowledge some one Holy Angel, 
Saints be peculiar patrons of certain places. Sapien. 3.  Apostle, Martyr, or Confessor, as their chief Patron and Friend. For if (as it is written) Michael the Archangel was once Prince of the jews: and stood always for the children of God's people: it is not to be doubted but that Christian people have now also their 
* Untruth, proceeding of vain dotage.  patrons. To this purpose 
‡ A grave Authority, taken out of the very Portuise.  some apply that which is written, Fulgebunt justi, & tanquam scintillae in arundineto discurrent, iudicabunt nationes, & dominabuntur populis, & regnabit dominus illorum in perpetuum: The just men shall shine, and like sparks of fire in dry kicks shall run abroad: they shall judge nations, and bear rule over peoples, and our Lord shall reign over them for ever. S. Ambrose is of that opinion plainly, where he saith, writing upon S. Luke, 
In fine Lib. S. comment. in Lucam.  Sicut Angeli praesunt, ita & ij qui vitam meruerint Angelorum. As the Angels be over Nations, so they also which deserve the Life of Angels.  
Concerning the offices that, ye say, we appoint unto the Saints, ye must understand, that as God hath showed by any Miracle, what good work he hath wrought by this Saint, rather than by that: so the people desire to obtain of God by the same Saints Prayer that thing, wherein they may 
‡ This is the certainty of M. hardings Prayer. It hangeth of a blind conjecture.  conjecture, that God hath given him most grace. And because our Lady the blessed Virgin Mary hath more grace given to her, 
Intercession of the blessed Virgin Mary.  than any other Creature (except ye can name 
* It is a greater Grace to be the Child of God.  a greater grace then to be the Mother of God): therefore all Christian Nations are most bold to desire in Prayer to be relieved by her Intercession, and Mediation of her Prayer made to her Son jesus Christ, who (we doubt not) heareth her most, gladly, as nolesse intending to do good by her continually to us, than we are sure, that by her he hath done for us those great benefits, which continually we do receive, for so much as he took Flesh of her. And seeing that Christ is the first begotten among many Brothers, 
Roman. 8. Marry Mother to all that love Christ. johan. 19 Spiritual familiarity with the mother of God, in excess of mind and sovereign Devotion.  we that are called into one heritage with him and by him, may take heart to account Christ's Mother, for our Mother, specially whereas he said unto john his Disciple, and in him to all the Children of Grace, behold thy Mother.  
If now any spiritual man such as S. bernard was, deeply considering the great honour and dignity of Christ's Mother, do in excess of mind 
‡ Open Blasphemy, is Spiritual dalliance: O wheu will M. harding confess a fault?  spiritually sport and dally (as it were) with her, biding her to remember, that she is a Mother, and that thereby she hath a certain right to command her Son, and require in a most sweet manner, that she use her right: is this either impiously, or impudently spoken? Is not he rather most impious and impudent, that findeth fault there with? If ever any of you had practised in contemplation any of that sweetness, which is in Canticis Canticorum, ye should have found, that there the spiritual Soul is bolder with God her Creator and, spouse, then S. bernard ever was with our Lady, being but a Creature, and a member of the same Church with him.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Ye say, There is one only mediator of Salvation: but there are many mediators of Intercession. And thus with this pretty simple distinction, ye convey yourself away invisible in a cloud. But to cut of quarrels, M. harding, Let us have that one only mediator of Salvation: and then afterward take to you your other mediators of Intercession at your pleasure.  
How be it, if Christ only be the mediator of Salvation, wherefore then do you thus call upon the Blessed Virgin Christ's Mother, salva omnes, qui te glorificant? Save thou all them, that glorify thee. Here ye intrude upon Christ's office: and make the Holy Virgin a mediator, not only of Intercession, but also of Salvation. Wherefore say ye thus of Thomas Becket, of whose Saincthoode, for aught that I know, ye may well stand in doubt: Tu per Thomae Sanguinem, quem pro te impendit, Fac nos christ scandere, qu● Thomas Ascendit: O Christ, make us to Ascend unto Heaven, whither Thomas is Ascended, even by the Blood of Thomas, 
Mediator of Intercession.  that he shed for thy sake. Here you seek, not only Intercession, but also Salvation in the Blood of Thomas. Wherefore doth S. Ambrose say, 
Ambrosi in Sermone 6. De S. Margareta.  if it were S. Ambrose, that wrote the Book, Reddere debemus Sanctis honorificentiam, qui nobis Salutem profusione sui Sanguinis pepererunt: qui tam Sacra Hostia pro nostra propitiatione Domino sunt oblati: We must yield honour unto the Saints, which have procured Salvation for us, by the shedding of their Blood: Which also were offered up unto the Lord so Holy a Sacrifice for our Salvation. If we have Salvation in the Blood of Saints, then is not Christ the Only mediator of our Salvation.  
He is no indifferent Vmpeere, that first divideth Offices equally between two, and afterward alloteth both offices to One alone.  
notwithstanding, the end, and office as well of Intercession, as also of Salvation, is, to Reconcile us unto God, & to procure us Mercy. But this is Christ's only office: He reconcileth us unto God: He presenteth us unto the Throne of Grace. 
Rom. 8. 1. Timoth. 2.  And therefore, as S. Paul saith, he evermore maketh Intercession, for us. And for that cause also he saith, unus est Mediator Dei & Hominum, Homo Christus jesus: There is One mediator between God, and Man, Christ jesus being Man.  
S. Paul requireth the people to make Intercession, and to pray for him. This is true. And God hath commanded, that all the faithful should pray one for an other. But S. Paul never required the people to pray to Saints. S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. Contra Epist. Parmeniant, Lib. 2. Cap. 8. Augustin. in eod. Lib.  Paulus non facit se Mediatorem inter Populum, & Deum: Sed rogat, ut pro se orent invicem omnia Membra Coporis Christi: Paul maketh not himself a mediator between God and the people: but requireth, that they Pray all one for an other, being all the Members of the Body of Christ. Again he saith of S. john, Si johannes ita diceret, Hoc Scripsi vobis, ut non peccetis: et si quis peccaverit, Mediatorem me habetis apud Deum, & ego Exoro pro peccatis vestris, Sicut Parmenianus quodam loco Mediatorem posuit Episcopum inter Populum, & Deum, quis eum ferret bonorum, atque Fidelium Christianorum? Quis sicut Apostolum Christi, & non sicut Antichristum intueretur? If S. john would say, This have I written unto you, that ye Sin not: and if ye Sin, ye have me your mediator before God, and I will entreat for your Sins, As Parmenian (the Heretic) in a certain place made the Bishop a mediator between God, and the People, what good, and faithful Christian Man could abide him? Who would look upon him, is the Apostle of Christ: and not rather think him to be antichrist? Here, M. harding, your silly distinction of Intercession, and Salvation, cannot save you. For Parmenian never thought, the Bishop was a mediator of Salvation. And yet S. Augustine saith, If S. john would have said so much of himself, he had not been the Apostle of Christ: but rather should have been judged, and taken for antichrist.  
Ye think, the words of the Prophet Hieremie spoken of Idols, and False Gods, may not justly be applied to the Saints of God. In deed of the Saints part, it were great blasphemy, to call them Idols. For they see God face to face, and evermore be with God in Glory. But in respect of your horrible Abuses, and vain fantasies, the Words of the Prophet be rightly applied. For you, in your imagination, of the Saints of God have made Idols: and have so multiplied, and increased the same, that the number of them hath far passed the number of all your Towns, and Cities. And therefore the ancient Father Epiphanius applieth the like words of the same Prophet Hieremie, unto the Blessed Virgin Marie, being then idolatrousely abused by the Heretics called Collyridiani, 
distinct Offices.  even as the same Blessed Virgin, & other Saints are by you abused now. Thus he writeth, 
Epiphani. Li. 3. Hares. 59  Ne quis comedat de errore, qui est propter S. Mariam. Tametsi enim pulchrum sit lignum, tamen non est ad Cibun. Etsi Pulcherrima est Maria, & Sancta, & Honorata: at non ad Adorationem. Hae ver● Mulieres, colentes Mariam, rursus renovant Fortunae Mixturam, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  & praeparant Mensam Diabolo, non Deo: Quemadmodum scriptum est, Pascuntur Cibo impietatis. Et rursus, & Foeminae terunt Pollinem, & filii colligunt ligna, ut faciant Placentas oleo subactas Reginae Coeli. Compescantur à Hieremia tales Mulieres: & ne turbent Orbem terrarum. Ne dicant, Honoramus Reginam Coeli: Let noman Fate of this error, touching S. Marry. For though the tree be fair, yet is not this Fruit to be Eaten. Although Marie be bew●ieful, and Holy, and Honourable, yet is she not to be adored. But these Women, worshipping S. Marie, renew again the Sacrifice of Wine mingled in the Honure of the Goddess Fortuna, and prepare a Table for the Devil, and not for God. As it is written in the Scriptures. They are fed with the Meat of Wickedness. And again, Their Women bolt flower: and their Children gather sticks, to make fine Cakes in the Honour of the Queen of Heaven. Therefore let such Women be rebuked by the Prophet Hieremie: and let them no more trouble the world. And let them not say, we Worship the Queen of Heaven.  
Here we see, the words, that were spoken of the Heathenish Idols, are applied by Epiphanius unto the Mother of Christ: not to deface that Blessed Virgin, but to declare the fond errors of those Heretics.  
As for the distribution of offices, and several duties, limited, and appointed to each Saint in his degree, it shable best for modesty's sake to say nothing. S. Augustine speaking of the Heathens, from whom this part of your Divinity, M. harding, was first derived, saith thus, Dicebat, ita esse utilem cognitionem Deorum, 
Augusti. De Civita. Li. 4. Ca 22  si sciatur, quam quisque Deus vim, aut potestatem habeat cuiusque rei. Ex eo enim poterimus, inquit, scire, quem cuiusque rei causa Deum advocare, atque invocare debeamus: ne faciamus, ut Mimi solent, & optemus à Libero Aquam, à Lymphis Vinum: Varro said, The knowledge of the Gods is Profitable, if a man understand, what Power, and Authority each God hath in every thing. For so, saith be, we may know, whom to call upon, and whom to pray unto: lest happily we do, as certain Mimi are wont to do: that is to say, lest of Bacchus, the God of Wine, we beg Water, or of Lymphae, the Goddesses of Water, we beg Wine.  
These things having their beginning among the Heathens, have sithence been brought even into the Church of God: and all the Saints in Heaven have been appointed, each one in Order to his Several Office: lest any one should intrude into an others room. Antoninus saith. in his time. where S Paul and friar Dominike were painted together, the manner was, under the Image of S. Paul to write these words, Per hunc itur ad Christum: We may come to Christ, by this Saint: But under the Image of friar Dominike, they wrote thus, Sed magis per istum: Yet much rather by this Saint: Whereby was meant, that friar Dominic'S Office, and Authority before God, was somewhat better, than S. Paul's.  
Whereas ye teach the people thus to pray unto the Blessed Virgin, Monstra te esse Matrem: Command thy Son: Use thy Motherly Authority over him: Let him know thee to be his Mother, this you say, is no blasphemy, but a Spiritual dallicinge. Now verily, M. harding, this must needs be a blessed kind of Divinity, that can turn Prayer into Dalliance.  
One of your Beaupeeres of Louvain, as a man carrieing his face in his hand, saith boldly, 
Copus Dialog. 3. Pag. 340.  these words were never used in your Church. And therefore he saith with good courage, Interim à bonis istis viris quaero, Cur non nominant illas Ecclesias, quae Virginem Matrem tam impudenter appellant? 
Mother of God. Child of God.  Cur eas, inquam, non nominant? In the mean season, saith he, this question I demand of these honest men: Why name they not those Churches, which so impudently call upon that Virgin Christ's Mother? I say, Why do they not name them? Your modesty herein, M. harding, is more praisewoorthy. You are contented to grand the fact: and pleasantly to excuse it by a Spiritual Dallieinge.  
But ye may tell your said Fellow, that this kind of Prayer was universally used throughout all your whole Church of Rome: that men, Women, and Children, Learned, and Unlearned were taught, and forced thus to pray: Thou art the Queen of Heaven: Thou art the Lady of Angels: Command thy Son: Show thee self to be the Mother. Ye may tell him, that Cardinal Bembus, sometime the Pope's Secretary, 
Bembus in Epist. ad Carolum. 5. Concil. Trident. Session. 2.  calleth the same Blessed Virgin, Dominam, & Deam nostram: Our Lady, and Goddess. Tell him, that Ambrose Catharinus in your Late Chapter at trident, representing, as you say, your whole Catholic Church, calleth the same Blessed Virgin God's fellow, by these words, Fidelissima eius Socia: Gods most faithful fellow.  
Ye may further tell him, 
Concil. oxonians.  that in your Council of Oxford, Christ's name is quite forgotten, and left out: and Our Ladies name put in place: For thus it beginneth, Authoritate Dei Patris, & Beatae Virgins, & omnium Sanctorum, etc. By the Authority of God the Father, and of the Blessed Virgin, and of all Saints. notwithstanding ye may well answer, as before, that all this was no manner blasphemy against God, but only a Pretty Spiritual Dalliance: even such Dalliance, 
1. Corin. 10.  I trow, as S. Paul meaneth by these words, Sedit Populus ad manducandum, & bibendum: & surrexerunt ad Ludendum: The People sat down to eat, and drink: and rose up again to Play, or Dally, that is to say, to commit Idolatry.  
You say, Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin hath more grace given her, than any other Creature, except ye can name a greater Grace, say you, then to be the Mother of God. Verily, M. harding, to be the Child of God, it is a great deal greater Grace, 
Augustin. De Sancta Virginitate, Cap. 3  then to be the Mother of God. S. Augustine saith, Beatior ergo Maria fuit, Percipiendo Fidem Christi, quàm concipiendo Carnem Christi. Materna Propinquitas nihil Mariae profusset, nisi foelicius Christum cord, quàm Carne gestasset: Marie was more Blessed (or suller of Grace) in that she Received the Faith of Christ, then in that she Conceived the Flesh of Christ. Motherly kinreade could have done Marie no good, unless she had borne Christ more Blessedly in her Heart, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 10.  than she bore him in her Flesh. And again he saith, Mater mea, quam appellastis Foelicem, inde Foelix est, quia Verbum Dei custodtuit: Non quia in illa Verbum Caro factum est: My Mother, whom ye have called Blessed, therefore is Blessed, because she hath kept the Word of God: Not because the Word in her was made Flesh.  
Therefore saith Epiphanius, 
Epiphani. Li. 3. Hares. 59 Contra Collyridian.  Christus dixit, Quid mihi, & tibi est Mulier? Non dum venit hora mea. Qu● non putarent aliqui, magis eximiam esse Sanctam Virginem, Mulierem eam appellavit: veluti prophetans, quae essent futura in terra Sectarum & Haerese●n genera: ut ne aliqui nimiùm admirati Sanctam, in hanc Haeresim, eiusque deliramenta dilabantur. Est enim Ludibrium tota res, & anicularum fabula, &, ut ita dicam, tota Haeresis tractatio: Christ said unto his Mother, Woman, what have I to do with thee? My hour is not yet come. Left any man should think, Our Lady was of greater excellency. he called her Woman: as it were prophesying of the Kinds, and Sects of Heresies. that were to come in the world: Lest any man having too great opinion of that Holy Saint, should fall into this Heresy, and into the dotage of the same. For in deed the whole matters but a mockery, and an Old wives tale, and soothly to say, nothing else, but the handling of an Heresy. 
Origen. in Lucam, Homil 25.  Origen hereof saith, Si mensuram transcenderit Charitatis, & qui diligit, & qui diligitur, in Peccato est: If Love pass the measure of charity, as well he, that loveth, as also he, that is Loved, is in sin.  
But touching the matter itself, 
Ambros. ad Roma. Cap. 1.  S. Ambrose saith, Ide● ad Reges itur per Tribunos, & Comites: quia Homo utique est Rex: & nescit, quibus debeat Rempublicam credere. Ad Deum autem, quem nihil later, Omnium enim Merita novit, Promerendum, suffragatore non est Opus, sed mente devota. Vbicunque enim talis locutus fuerit ei, respondebit illi: Therefore we are brought unto the presence of Kings by Lords, and Officers: Because the King is a Man, and knoweth not, to whom he may commit his Realm. But to obtain God's favour, from whom nothing is secret, as knowing, what every man is meet to have, we need no spokesman, but a devout mind. For, where so ever such a one speaketh unto God, God will answer him.    

The Apology, Cap. 19 Division. 1.  
We say also, that every person is borne in Sin, and leadeth his life in Sin: that no body is able truly to say, his heart is clean. That the most righteous person is but an unprofitable servant: That the Law of God is perfit, and requireth of us perfit, and full obedience: That we are able by no means to fulfil that Law in this worldly life: That there is no one mortal Creature, which can be justified by his own deserts in God's sight: And therefore that our only succour, and refuge is to fly to the Mercy of Our Father by jesus Christ, & assuredly to persuade our minds, that he is the obteiner of forgiveness for our sins: And that by his Blood all our spots of Sin be washed clean: That he hath pacified and set at one all things by the Blood of his Cross: That he by the same One only Sacrifice, which he once offered upon the Cross, hath brought to effect, and fulfilled all things, &, that for the cause he said, when he gave up the Ghost, It is finished, as though he would signify, that the price, and ransomme was now full paid for the Sin of all Mankind. If there be any, that think this Sacrifice not sufficient, let them go in God's name, & seek a better. We verily, because we know this to be the Only Sacrifice, are well content with it alone, and look for none other: and, forasmutche as it was to be offered but Once, we command it not to be renewed again: and, because it was full & perfit in all points, and parts, we do not ordain in place thereof any continual succession of offerings.  

M. harding.  
Ye make a Sophistical argument, when ye teach, because the Law of God requireth of us full obedience, that therefore it cannot be satisfied in this life by any means. For when ye say, it requireth of us full obedience, if ye mean 
‡ A vain folly. For God's Law was written for Men in Earth, not for Angels in Heaven.  such full obedience, as is required only in this life, then conclude ye falsely, that we can by no means satisfy it. But if ye mean such full obedience, ‡ as is only performed in Heaven, than ye conclude well, that we in this life cannot fulfil such perfection, as is required in Heaven. But then have ye said nothing to the purpose. For we know, 
God commandeth not that which is impossible to a man in grace.  what mark ye shoot at, by your Doctrine uttered in other places. Your meaning is 
* A horrible heresy. S. Augustine saith, Deus jubet aliquae, quae non possumus facere.  that no man in this Life is able by the Grace of God to fulfil the Commandments. We believe, God commandeth us nothing impossible to us. 
‡ A fond question For God punisheth Infants for their Original Sin: yet are they by no means able to avoid it.  Otherwise how could he justly punish for not doing that commandment, which by no means we were able to fulfil? We are sure that God punisheth noman unjustly: for, Non est apud dominum Deum nostrum iniquitas: There is no iniquity in Our Lord God.  
Moses speaking of the fulfilling of the Commandments of God, 
Deut. 30. Rom. 10.  which also S. Paul repeateth, saith that they are not above us in Heaven, neither far from us beyond the Sea: but hard by thee (saith he) is his word in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it. And Christ saith, 
Matthae. n. 1. john. 5.  jugum meum suave est, & onus meum leave: 
* The cause hereof is God's Mercy S. Augustine saith, Omniae mandata facta deputantur, quando quicquid non factum est, ignoscitur.  My Yoke is sweet, and my burden light: and S. john, His Commandments be not heavy. He then, that saith, we can by no means fulfil the Law of God, maketh 
* Untruth. For we make not god Unjust: but we Confess ourselves to be finners.  God unjust, and evil, or impotent, and not able to give so much grace, as may help to fulfil his Law. Let the discrete reader judge, what blasphemy your words contain. Belie us no more hereafter. This is our Doctrine. better founded in the word of God, and in the Tradition of the Apostles, and in the custom of the whole Church, then that ye shall ever be able to overthrow it. Blaspheme, and bark against it ye may: overcome it ye cannot.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
All other things here by you touched, M. harding, I will pass over: thinking it sufficient, to note a few words of the possibility, and performance of the Law: and so much the more, for that ye seem therein in some part, to renew the Pelagian Heretics Old condemned error.  
As touching that full and perfit Obedience, that is required of us by the Law, ye answer, there are sundry sorts of Perfection: namely, that there is Perfection in Children: Perfection in men: Perfection in Angels: and Perfection, in God. And further ye say, that in this life we cannot fulfil such Perfection, as is required of the Angels of God in Heaven. And this answer ye make, touching the Obedience, and performing of the Law: As if ye would say, The Law of God was geeven to Angels: and is to be performed, not in the Earth, but Only in Heaven: And, as if God had said to those Blessed Spirits, Thou shalt not Kil: Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not covet, etc.  
In your sundry Perfections, of Children, men, Angels, and God, I have no skill. The Apology meant only of that Perfection, that is required in Man. How be it, in every kind they say, Perfectum est, cui nihil deest: That thing is perfit, that is full, and absolute, and wanteth nothing.  
And here, lest ye should deceive yourself by wrong measure, God himself hath showed you, 
Deuter. 6. Matthae. 22. Deuter. 17. Deuteron. 27. Calat. 3. jacob. 2. Matthae. 5.  what Perfection he requireth. Thus he saith, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy Heart, with all thy Soul, with all thy Power: Ye shall not turn, neither to the Right hand, nor to the Left: Accursed is he, that standeth not in every thing, that is written in the Law, to perform the same. And S. james saith, Who so offendeth in one Commandment, is guilty of al. And Christ saith, Be ye perfit (not measuring yourselves by your own ability, but) as your Father is perfit, which is in Heaven. And yet hereby he meaneth not the Perfection, that is in God, and his Angels, but only that Perfection, that is required in Man.  
S. Jerome saith, The Pelagian Heretics in Old times used the same shifts, that you use now. For where as the Catholic Learned Fathers said, Noman is perfit, and void of Sin, they answered then even in such sort, as you do now, 
Hieronym. ad C●esiphons. contra Pelagianos.  Noman is perfit in such degree of Perfection, as God is perfit. S. Hieromes words be these, Aiunt, ad Comparationem Dei, nullum esse Perfectum: 
Possibility of the Law.  Quasi Scriptura hoc dixerit: They say (even as you, M. harding, say) that in Comparison of God, noman is perfit: As though this were the saying of the Scriptures. And therefore he saith unto them, Nunquid Praecepit mihi Deus, ut essem, quod Deus est? Vt nihil inter me esset, & Dominum Creatorem? Vt maior essem Angelorum fastigio? Vt haberem, quod Angeli non habent? I beseech you, hath God Commanded me, that I should be the same, that God is? That there should be no difference (in Perfection) between me, and my Lord the creature? That I should be above the Highness of Angels? Or that I should have, that the Angels have not? It was in vain therefore, M. harding, thus to borrow the Pelagians Weapons, and to make matter of this Perfection. For we speak not of Angels, but only of men.  
Further, tointreate of the perfit fulfilling, and accomplisshinge of the Law, I mean, so far as the Law requireth, the Pelagian Heretics herein also said, 
Augustin. De ●●ati. & libero Arbitr. Cap. 4.  even as you say: and none otherwise. S. Augustine thereof reporteth thus: Magnum aliquid Pelagiani se scire putam, quando dicunt, Non iuberet Deus, quod Sciret ab homine non posse fieri. Quis hoc nesciat? Sed ide● jubet aliqua, quae non possumus, ut noverimus, quid ab ipso petere debeamus: The Pelagians think themselves Cunning men, when they say, God would not command that thing, that he knoweth, a man is not able to do. And who is there, that knoweth not this? But therefore God Commandeth us to do some things, that we are not able to do, that we may understand, what we ought to crave of him.  
S. Jerome saith unto one of the same Pelagians, 
Hieronym. ad Ctesiphont. contra Pelagianos.  Facilia esse dicis Dei mandata: & tamen nullum proferre potes, qui universa compleverit: Ye say, God's Commandments be easy: And yet ye are able to show us noman, that ever fulfilled them all together.  
Therefore again he saith unto them, 
Hieronym. contra Pelagianos. li. 1.  Noli ponere in Coelum os tuum, ut per Esse, & Esse posse, stultorum auribus illudas. Quis enim tibi concedit, posse hominem facere, quod nullus unquam hominum potuerit? Set not thy face against Heaven, to mock fools ears with these words, Be, and Can be. For who will grant you, that a man can do that thing, that noman ever was able to do?  
Likewise S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. De Spiritu, & Litera, Cap. 1.  Dixi fieri posse, ut sit homo sine peccato, si Voluntas ei non desit, ope Divina adiuuante: Sed tamen Praeter unum, in quo omnes vivificabuntur, neminem vel fuisse, vel fore, in quo hîc vivente esset ista Perfectio: I said, It is possible, that a man may be without Sin, if he want not will, the Power of God assisting him: And yet I said, that besides Only Christ, in whom all men shallbe quickened to Life, there was never man, nor never shallbe, who being in this life, shall have this Perfection. S. Augustine saith, Noman can attain to this Perfection: and he speaketh of the Perfection, that is required, not of Angels, but of men.  
Ye will say, as the Pelagians did, wherefore then doth Christ say, Be ye perfit? 
Matthae. 5. Philip. 3. Hieronym. Aduersus Pelagian Lib. 1.  Wherefore doth S. Paul say, As many of us, as be perfit? etc. Hereto S. Jerome answereth thus: Quid ergo sapimus? imo quid sapere debemus, qui Perfecti non sumus? Imperfectos nos esse Confiteri, & nondum comprehendisse, nec dun acccepisse. Haec est hominis vera Sapientia, imperfectum esse se nosse. Atque, ut ita loquar, Cunctorum in Carne justorum Imperfecta Perfectio est: What then do we think, or what ought we to think, that be not perfit? We ought to Confess, that we are unperfit, and that we have not yet gotten, nor taken (that Perfection) that is required. This is the true wisdom of a Man, to know himself to be unperfit. And, as I might say, the Perfection of all just men living in the Pleashe is unperfit. 
unperfit Perfection.  Again he saith, justi appellantur, non quòd omni Vitio careant, 
Hieronym ad C●esiphont. Augustin. ad Bonifacium Li 3. Cap. 7.  sed quòd Maiori part Virtutum commendentur: They are called Just men, not for that they be void of all manner Sin, but for that they are furnished with the greater part of Virtues. So likewise saith S. Augustine, Virtus, quae nunc est in homine justo, hactenus Perfecta nominatur, ut ad eius Perfectionem pertineat etiam ipsius Imperfectionis, & in Veritate agnitio, & in humilitate Confessio: The Virtue, that is now in a just man, so far forth is called perfit, that it pertaineth to the Perfection thereof, both in truth to know, and in humility to Confess, that it is unperfit. Again he saith, Omnia mandata facta deputantur, 
Augustin. Retracta. li. 1. ca 19 Augustin. De Spiritu, & Litera, Cap. 35.  quando, quicquid non fit, ignoscitur: All the Commandments of God are accounted to be done, when that thing, that is not down, is forgiven. To conclude, he saith, Multùm in hac vita ille profecit, qui quàm longè sit à Perfectione justitiae, proficiendo cognovit: He hath much profited in this life, that by his profiting hath learned, how far he is from the Perfection of righteousness.  
Yet nevertheless we may truly use S. Hieromes words, uttered in the defence, and right of this same cause: Haec dicentes, non adulamur vitijs: sed Authoriratem sequimur Scripturarum, 
Hieronymus. ad A●gasiam.  quòd nullus homo sit absque Peccato. Sed conclusit Deus omnia sub Peccato, ut Omnium misereatur: notwithstanding we say thus, yet we flatter not Vices: but we follow the Authority of the Scriptures, that there is nothing without sin. But God hath shut up all things under Sin, that he may have Mercy of Al. 
Hieronym. in Ezechiel. li. 14. Cap. 46.  Again he saith, Perspicuum est, omnem hominem, quamuis ad Perfectionem venerit, tamen indigere Misericordia Dei: & plenam Perfectionem ex Gratia, non ex Merito possidere: It is most certain, that every man, yea although he be grown to Perfection, yet needeth the Mercy of God: and that he enjoyeth full Perfection, not of his own deserving, but of Grace.  
Even so S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. De Civita Lib 19 Cap. 27.  Ipsa justitia nostra tanta est in hac vita, ut potius peccatorum Remissione constet, quàm Perfectione Virtutum: Our very righteousness itself is so greet in this Life, that it standeth rather in forgiveness of Our Sins, then in Perfection of righteousness.    

The Apology, Cap. 20. Division. 1.  
Besides, though we say, we have no meed at all by our own works, and deeds, but appoint all the means of Our Salvation to be in Christ alone, yet say we not, that for this cause men ought to live loosely, and dissolutely: nor that it is enough for a Christian, to be baptized only, and to Believe: as though there were nothing else required at his hand. For True Faith is lively, and can in no wise be idle. Thus therefore teach we the people, that God hath called us, not to follow riot, and wantonness, but, as S. Paul saith, unto good works, to walk in them: That we are delivered from the Power of Darkness, to the end that we should serve the Living God: to cut away all the remnants of Sin, and to work Our Salvation in fear, and trembling: that it may appear, that the Spirit of Sanctification is in Our Bodies, and that Christ himself dwelleth in Our Hearts.  

M. harding.  
With what face can these Defenders affirm, 
Merit, and Mercy.  that they teach the people to walk in good works, whereas beginning the treatise of works in this present Apology, they say, that we have 
* No aid or help unto Salvation. Otherwise this report is Untrue.  no help, or aid in our works, and deeds? For so their Latin word Praesidium doth signify, which in the English, is turned into meed. What, Masters, is this the way to make men work well, to tell them before hand, that their works be nothing worth, and that they help them never a whit? Why then let the Labourers Proverb take place, I had rather play for nothing, then work for nothing. 
‡ Nazianzen. Si mercenarius es, tantùm expecta mercedem. De Sancto Baptism.  Is there any Labourer so mad, as to work for nothing? first ye tell the Labourers, that there is no help for them in their works, and then ye cry unto them to labour: 
* Is not this a folly, M Hard. God's Truth is no mockery.  yea forsooth, as hard as they list. Is not this to mock God and the world? Whereas ye speak to Christian men, to those that be baptized, to such as have Faith: Yet ye tell them, they may work as much, as they will, 
‡ Untruth. For we: say with S. Paul, your works shall not be in vain in the Lord.  but all in vain, etc. Ergo then, although a lively Faith cannot be idle, and some true Faith is lively, yet in an other sense. 
* Untruth. Read the answer.  there is a true Faith which is not lively, but idle. Which true Faith shall become lively and have great aid in works, if it well learn to leave idleness, and practise that in will and heart, which it believeth in understanding.  
But whereas these Defenders would no help or aid to be in Christian men's works, that 
‡ Untruth. For it is no Heresy: it is the Faith of Christ. Read the Answer.  Heresy may not so escape. 
That good works help us. Matthae. 19  Christ being demanded of one, what good he should do to obtain everlasting life, said: If thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments. To keep the Commandments is a work: to enter into Life is some help to a man. Therefore it is falsely spoken, that in our works there is no help for us. Again, Christ saith, Who so ever forsaketh his house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my sake, be shall receive an hundred fold, and shall inherit Life everlasting. S. Paul saith, God will render to every man according to his work. To those that seek for glory, and honour, and incorruption, according to the sufferance of good works, (he will render) Life everlasting.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here ye trifle, M. harding, although not much besides your common wont, yet somewhat above your ordinary. Our Doctrine herein is grounded upon these words of Christ, 
Luc. 17.  When ye have done all, say, that ye be unprofitable▪ Servants, and therefore have deserved nothing. In deed, of late years this hath been the General Doctrine of your Schools: Vita Aeterna est Merces debita pro nostris Meritis: Vita Aeterna, nisi esset Merces debita, esset incerta. Quia debitum certum est: Misericordia incerta: everlasting Life is a reward dew for our deservings. If everlasting Life were not a dew reward, it were uncertain. For dew debt is certain: Mercy, or savour is Uncertain. Thus have you utterly drowned the Grace of God, and the Salvation that we have only in jesus Christ: and have turned the most Comfortable Doctrine of the Gospel into a dungeon of Desperation.  
Then, 
Gregori. Nazian. De Sancto Baptismate. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  say you, Let the Labourers Proverb take place, I had rather plate for nothing, then work for nothing. Verily, M. harding, when other reason could not serve you, it was reason, your Labourers idle reason should take place. How be it, if ye will do nothing at God's request, of good will, without reward, but must be hired only for your Penny, then may your Labourer, be he never so simple, easily tell you, ye are not the Child of God, but only a hireling, and a Labourer. For the Natural loving Child will Obey his Father, not for reward, but of love, only because he is his Father.  
Gregory Nazianzene saith, Si servus es, time plagas: Si mercenarius, tantum specta Mercedem. At, si supra hos es etiam Filius, reverere tanquam Patrem tuum. Bene facito, quia pulchrum est obsequi Patri. Et, quamuis nihil aliud futurum sit, 
Merit, and Mercy.  tamen vel hoc ipsum erit Merces tua fecisse quod gratum esset Patri: If thou be a bond Slave, then fear the whip: If thou be a hireling, then look only for thy reward: But over, and besides these, If thou be a (Natural) Child, than reverence (GOD) as thy Father. Do well, because it is good to Obey thy Father. Yea, and although thou shalt have nothing else, yet even this shallbe thy reward, that thou haste been obedient to thy Father.  
S. Hilary saith, 
Hilari. in Psalm. 118.  Nos, si semel ieiunamus, satisfecisse nos arbitramur: Si aliquid ex horreo domesticarum facultatum inopi damus, implenisse nos justitiam credimus, etc. Sed Propheta totum à Deo sperat: totum à Misericordia eius expectat: If we fast once, we think, we have satisfied: If out of the barns of Our household store we give somewhat to the Poor, we believe, we have fulfilled the measure of righteousness. But the Prophet hopeth all of God: and trusteth all of his Mercy. Christ saith to his Disciples, 
Matthae. 5. Augustin. Confession.  Let your Light so shine before men (not that ye may be rewarded, but) that they may see your good works, and glorify yur Father, which is in Heaven. S. Augustine saith, Minùs diligit te, qui diligit aliud praeter te: O God, 
Basil. in Psal. 32. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  he the less loveth thee, that loveth any other thing, besides thee. Likewise S. Basile saith, Qui non fidit suis rectè factis, nec expectat ex operibus justificari, Solan habet spem salutis, Misericordias Dei: He that trusteth not to his own good deeds, nor hopeth to be justified by his works, hath the Only hope of his Salvation, the Mercies of God.  
Further ye say, A true Faith may be idle, and utterly without works: & therefore ye think it not true, that we say, A true Faith is Lively, and can in no wise be idle. Here perhaps ye will set Faith upon the last, and Rack her to a larger ●ise. For so Latomus, one of your Fellows, saith, that Socrates, and Plato, and other Heathen Philosophers had as good understanding, and Faith in Christ, as had Abraham. And Andradius, an other of your Fellows, saith, that the Heathen, and Infidel Philosophers had the Righteousness of Faith, and Everlasting Life. 
Illyricus De Sectis Pag 93. Kemnitius in examine Trident. Concilij. Pag. 535. Copus Dialo. 1. Pag. 51.  His words be these, Philosophi, qui ab inani Deorum multitudine abhorruerunt, etc. illos tu illa Fide, Deique cognitione destitutos dices, per quam, scilicet, impius iustificatur, & ex qua justus vivit? The Philosophers, that abhorred, and shunned the vain multitude of Gods, etc. wilt thou say, they lacked that Faith, and that knowledge of God, whereby the wicked is justified, and whereby the righteous liveth? An other or your near Fellows saith, Petrus, non Fidem Christi, sed Christum, salva Fide, negavit: Peter denied, not the Faith of Christ: but he denied Christ, his Faith nevertheless being safe. If ye call this True Faith, M. harding, that may be found in Heathens, and Infidels, and may well, and safely stand with the abiuringe of Christ, then, without question, your True Faith may be without good works. 
1. Timothe. 5. Fidem abnegavit.  But S. Paul, whose words we ought rather to credit, saith far otherwise: He, that hath no regard to his own, specially such, as be of his household, hath denied the Faith, and is worse, than an Infidel. Again he saith: 
Tit. 1 1. john 2. jacob. 2.  They say, they know God: but by their works they deny God. S. john saith, Who so saith, he knoweth God, and keepeth not his Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. S. james saith, Faith without works is dead: And the Devil believeth, and tremblethe for fear. But a Dead Faith is no more a True perfit Faith, than a Dead man is a True perfit Man. As for the Faith of Devils, in deed, and verily it is no Faith.  
Certainly S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin in Euangel. johan. Sermo 61. Augustin. De Fide & Operib. Cap. 23.  Qui Fidem habet sine spe, & dilectione, Christum esse credit: non in Christum credit: He that hath Faith without Hope, and Charity, believeth, that there is Christ: but he believeth not in Christ. Again he saith, Inseparabilis est Bona vita à Fide, quae per Dilectionem operatur: imò verò ea ipsa est bona vita: Good Life can never be divided from Faith, which worketh by Love: Nay rather that same very Faith itself is good Life, S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. Li. 6. Epist. 36.  Vbi quis coeperit luxuriari, incipit deviare à vera Fide: As soon as a man beginneth to live wanton, he beginneth to flee from the True Faith. Origen saith, 
Origen. in Epist. ad Roman. Li. 8. Cap. 10.  Omnis, qui credit in cum, non crubescit. Erubescit autem Omnis, qui peccat: Ergo, qui adhuc ruborem peccati incurrit, credere non videtur: Who so ever Believeth in God, blussheth not: But every man blussheth, that worketh Sin: Therefore he, that yet blussheth for his Sin, 
Origen in Ezechiel. Homil. 9  seemeth not to Believe. Again he saith, Malè credit, quicunque peccat: Who so ever sinneth, Believeth ill.  
To be short, S. Cyprian saith, Quomodo dicit, se credere in Christum, qui non facit, quod Christus facere praecepit? How doth he say, He Believeth in Christ, that doth not the thing, that Christ Commanded?  
Hereby it is plain, that True Faith is lively, and woorkeful: and, that an Idle Faith is in deed no Faith at al.  
But you say, Good works have their reward: and therefore, ye say, This Heresy may not so escape. Whether Good Works shallbe rewarded, or no, it was no part of Our question. For we undoubtedly believe the words, that are written by S. john, 
Apocalyp. 14. Matthae. 10.  Opera illorum sequuntur illos: Their works follow after them: We believe the words, that Christ saith to his Disciples, He, that giveth a Cup of cold Water to any of these little Ones for my sake, shall not lose his reward. We believe that, 
1. Corin. 15.  that S. Paul saith, Your Work shall not be in vain in the Lord. We grant, Good Works have their Reward: But the same Reward standeth in Mercy, and Favour, and not in duty.  
Thus therefore we say, Considering the weakness, and sinful corruption of Our Nature, there can be no Works in us so pure, and perfit, that we may thereby of right, and of duty deserve everlasting Life. And this, M. harding, is no Heresy, but the very plain Sense, and Substance of God's Word, and the undoubted Doctrine of the ancient Catholic Fathers of the Church.  
job saith, 
job 9  Si Homo velit contendere cum Deo, non poterit ei respondere unum pro mill: If a man will dispute with God, he is not able to answer him one for a thousand. And therefore he saith, Verebar omnia Opera mea: I stood in doubt, and was afraid of all my Works. 
job. 9  Again he saith, Although ● were perfit, yet my soul shall not know it: 
isaiah. 64.  If I would justify me self, mine own Mouth shall condemn me. The Promphete isaiah saith, All our righteousness is like a fowl stained clout.  
Therefore S. Augustine saith, 
Augustine. De Tempore, Sermo. 49.  Non intres in judicium cum servo tuo. Quid est, Non intres in judicium cum servo tuo? Non stes mecum in judicio, exigendo a me omnia quae praecepisti, & omnia, quae iussisti. Name me invenies reum, ●i in judicium intraveris mecum. Opus ergo est Misericordia tua, potiùs, quàm liquidissimo judicio tuo: O Lord, enter not into judgement with thy Servant. What meaneth that, Enter not into judgement with thy Servant? Thus much it meaneth: Stand not with me in judgement, requiring of me all that thou haste commanded. For if thou enter into judgement with me, thou shalt find me guilty. I have need therefore, not of thy upright judgement, 
Augustin. Epist. 52. ad Mac●don.  but of thy Mercy. Again he saith, Merita quorumlibet hominum quae sunt? Quandoquidem ille, qui non cum Mercede debita, sed cum gratuita Gratia venit, Omnes peccatores, solus à peccato liber, & liberator, invevit: What be the Merits of any men? For Christ that came, not with his dew reward, but with his Grace, that was not dew, found all men sinners, being himself only free from sin, 
Augustin. De Spiritu, & Litera. Cap. 33.  and a deliverer of Sinners. Again he saith, Coronat te in Misericordia, & Miserationibus. Hoc fiet in judicio: ubi cùm Rex justus sederit in thro●o, redditurus unicuique secundum opera eius, quis gloriabitur, castum se habere Cor? Aut quis gloriabitur, mundum se esse à peccatis? Ideò illie necessarium fuit commemorare Miserationem, & Misericordiam Domini, etc. God crowneth with Favour and Mercy. That shallbe down in the last judgement: where as, when the Just King shall sit in his Throne, to render to every man according to his works, who shall boast, that his heart is chaste? Or who shall boast, that be is clean from Sin? Therefore it was needful to make mention of the Pity, and Mercy of Our Lord. And again, 
Augustin. in Psalm. 137.  Opera manuum mearum non Commendo. Timeo enim, ne cùm inspexeris, plura invenias peccata, quàm Merita: Lord, I commend not the works of my hands. For I am afraid, lest, when thou shalt behold them, thou shalt find more sins, then good deservings.  
So saith S. Jerome, 
Hieronym. in isaiah. Cap. 64. Origen. ad Roma. Li. 4 Cap. 4. Origen. in Matt. tracta. 8.  Si consideremus nostra Merita, desperandum est: If we behold our own Merits, we must be driven to desperation.  
So saith Origen, Ego vix mihi persuadeo, ullum opus esse posse, quod ex debito remunerationem deposcat: I do scarcely believe, that there can be any work, that may of duty require reward. Again he saith, Dicite, vos esse servos inutiles. Nam etsi Omnia fecerimus, quae praecepta sunt, non tamen bonum aliquod fecimus. Nec enim, si verè bona essent, essemus inutiles. Omne autem bonum nostrum, non propriè, sed abusiuè bonum dicitur: Say ye (saith Christ) that ye be unprofitable Servants. For notwithstanding we have done all things, that are commanded. yet have we done no good thing. For, if our doings were good in deed, than were we not unprofitable. But any good deed of ours is called good, not rightly, or duly, 
Augustin. in Psalm 94. Walden. contra Wiclefum.  but by abuse of speech. So saith S. Augustine, Si Deus vellet pro Meritis agere, non inveniret, nisi quod damnaret: If God would deal with us according to that we have deserved, be should find nothing, but that he might condemn. Therefore, M. harding, Waldensis, one of your great Doctors, having well, & circumspectly weighed the matter of every side, at the last concludeth thus, Quid dignum facimus, 
Roman. 8.  ut participes Coelestibus fieri inveniamur? Apostolo dicente, Existimo, quòd non sunt condignae passiones huius temporis ad futuram gloriam, quae revelabitur in nobis: Reputo igitur saniorem Theologum, fideliorem Catholicum, & Scripturia Sanctis magis concordem, qui tale Meritum simpliciter abnegat: What worthy thing do we, that we may be found in the Fellowship of the Heavenly Spirits? The Apostle saith, I Judge, that the afflictions of this time are not worthy of that Glory, that shallbe revealed in us. Therefore I take him to be the ●ounder Divine, the Faithefuller Catholic, and more agreeable to the Holy Scriptures, that utterly denieth all such kind of Merit.  
But ye will say, If we find Ourselves void of Merit, how then shall we stand, 
Apocalyp 22.  and be justified before God? S. john saith, Blessed are they, that have washed their Robes (not in their own Merits, but) in the Blood of the Lamb. 
Apocalyp. 21.  And God saith, I will give the thirsty to Drink of the Well of Life (not for his Deserts, but) for nothing.  
The Ancient Father Origen saith, 
Origen ad Roman. Li. 9 ca 12.  Quia Omnia conclusa sunt sub peccato, nunc non in Meritis, sed in Misericordia Dei Salus Humana Consistit: For as much as all men are shut up, and Closed under Sin, now the Salvation of Man standeth, not in man's Merits, but in God's Mercy.  
S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. Epist. 105. ad Sixtum.  Deus in fine Coronabit nos in Misericordia, & Miserationibus: God in the end will crown us (not with the price of our deservings, but) with Favour, and Mercies.  
Again he saith, 
Augustin De Verbis Apostoli, Sermo. 15.  Pro nihilo saluos facies eos. Quid est, Pro nihilo saluos facies eos? Nihil in eyes invenis, unde salves: & tamen saluas. Quia nihil invenis, unde salves: & multum invenis, unde damns: For Nothing thou shalt save them. What is meant by these word, For Nothing thou shalt save them? (This is the meaning) Thou findest Nothing in them, wherefore thou shouldest save them: and yet thou savest them. Thou findest nothing, wherefore thou shouldst save them: but thou findest much, wherefore thou shouldest condemn them: And again, Omnes in Mortem poena debita praecipites ageret, 
Augustin. De Civitate. Li. 14. Cap. 1.  nisi inde quosdam indebita Dei Gratia liberaret: Deserved pain would throw all men into Death, unless the Undeserved Grace of God delivered some from it.  
S. Basile saith, 
Basil. in Psal. 32.  Non erit judicium sine Misericordia: Quia non potest homo purus inveniti à sorde: ne si unus quidem tantùm dies sit ab eius natali: judgement shall not be without mercy: For noman can be found pure, and clean from all filth: no, though he be but one day old. 
Basil. De Humilitate.  Again he saith, Haec est nostra integra, & perfecta gloriatio in Deo, quando propriae justitiae nos inopes agnoscimus: Sola autem Fide in Christum justificari: This is our full, and perfit rejoicing in God, when we acknowledge, that we are void of any Our own righteousness, and are justified by Only Faith in Christ. So saith S. Jerome, In Christo jesu Domino nostro: in quo habemus fiduciam, 
Hieron. in Epist. ad Ephes. cap. 3.  & accessum, & confidenttiam per Fidem eius: non per nostram justitiam, sed per eum, cuius Fide nobis peccata dimittuntur: In Christ Jesus Our Lord: in whom we have boldness, and liberty to come (to God), and trust, and affiance by the Faith of him: not through Our righteousness, but through him, in whose name Our Sins be forgiven.  
Hereof S. bernard in most godly, 
Bernard. in Psal. Qui habitat.  and comfortable wise concludeth thus, Meritum meum. Miserationes Domini. Non sum ego inops Meriti, quam diu ille non est inops Miserationum. Si Miserationes eius multae, multus ego sum in Meritis. Hoc totum est Hominis Meritum, si totam spem suam ponat in Domino: My Merit is the Mercy of God. So long as God is not poor of Mercy, so long cannot I be poor of Merit. If his Mercies be great, then am I great in Merits. This is the whole Merit of Man, if he put his whole affiance in the Lord.  
This is these Defenders Horrible Heresy, M. harding, which, you say, mought not so escape your handed.    

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 1.  
To conclude, we Believe, that this ourself same Flesh, wherein we live, although it die, and come to dust, yet at the last shall return again to Life, by the means of Christ's Spirit, which dwelleth in us: and that then verily, whatsoever we suffer here in the mean while for his sake, Christ will wipe away all tears, and heaviness from our eyes: and that we through him shall enjoy everlasting Life, and shall for ever be with him in Glory. So be it.   

M. harding.  
Last of all, believe (as ye say) that this very Flesh shall return to Life, and that for the Spirit of Christ, which dwelleth in us. There is no doubt but the Spirit of Christ is sufficient to raise up their bodies, in whom it dwelleth. But we say, that the raising of our Flesh is also assigned in Holy Scripture 
* Untruth. For so the Fathers of the Old Law and all Christian Infants should be utterly excluded from Resurrection.  to the Real, and Substantial eating of Christ's Flesh, because it is written: He that eateth my Flesh, and drinketh my Blood, hath Life everlasting. And I will raise him again in the last day. Therefore the Resurrection of the Flesh is not only assigned in Holy Scripture to the Spirit of Christ, but also to the worthy eating of his Flesh. And thus we have confuted the Doctrine, wherein ye declare your Faith: and the chief grounds, whereon ye build your New Gospel, we have disproved.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The words, 
The cause of Resurrection.  wherein ye find fault, M. harding, are not ours, but S. Paul's. If they be false, why did he write them? If they be true, why do you blame them? Here ye seem to check S. Paul, and not only us. Ye say, The raising of our Flesh is also assigned in the Holy Scripture to the Realle, and Substantial Eating of Christ's Flesh. But whence had ye these words, M. harding? Where found ye these Scriptures? Dissemble no longer: Deal plainly & simply: It is God's cause. For a show, 
john 6.  ye allege these words of Christ, written by S. john: He that Eateth my Flesh, and Drinketh my Blood, hath Life everlasting: And I will raise him up again in the last day. These words we know: and the eating of Christ's Flesh we know: But where is your Real, and Substantial, and Carnal eating? Where did S. john ever tell you, that Christ's Body is Eaten with Teeth, and conveyed further in such gross, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 25. Idem, tracta. 26.  and fleshly wise into the belly? S. Augustine expounding the same words, saith thus, Crede, & Manducasti: Credere in Christum, hoc est Manducare Panem vivum: Iste Panis Interioris Hominis quaerit esuriem: Believe thou (in Christ): and thou haste Eaten (Christ). To Believe in Christ, that is the eating of the Bread of Life: This Bread requireth the Hunger of the Inner Man. 
Nicola. Lyra in Psalm. 111.  And Nicolas Lyra, one of your own Doctors, saith, These words of S john pertain nothing to the Sacrament. Thus he saith, Hoc Verbum nihil directè pertinet ad Sacramentalem, vel Corporalem Manducationem: This saying (of the sixth of john) pertaineth nothing directly to the Sacramental, or Corporal eating. It was some oversight of your part, M. harding, to seek to prove the eating of the Sacrament by those words, that, by your own Doctors judgement, pertain nothing to the Sacrament.  
Christ saith further, 
john. 6.  unless ye Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, and Drink his Blonde, ye shall have no Life in you. If there be none other Eating of Christ's Body, whereby we shall live, but only your Fantastical, and fleshly eating with Mouth, and Teeth, then, I beseech you, what Life hath Abraham, Isaac, jacob, Moses, Aaron, and other Holy patriarchs, and Prophets, that were before the coming of Christ? What Life have a great number of Holy Martyrs? What Life have Christian Children, that being baptized in the Blood of Christ, depart this Life before they can receive the Sacrament: that is to say, by your strange Exposition, before they have Really, & Substantially Eaten the Flesh of Christ? Will ye say, They have no Life? Or will ye condemn them all to Everlasting Death? Or must we think, they shall never rise again? Certainly S. Augustine saith precisely, 
Augustin. in johan. tracta. 26.  Qui Manducat, habet Vitam: &, qui non Manducar, non habet Vitam: Who so Eateth (the Flesh of Christ,) hath Life: and who so Eateth it not, hath no Life. Hereof we must needs conclude by your Divinity, that Abraham, Isaac, jacob, Moses, and other Godly Fathers, that never received the Sacrament, have no Life, but are dead for ever, without hope of Resurrection.  
But, to leave your Fantasies, M. harding, the cause of Our Resurrection, as S. Paul saith, 
1. Corin 15. Origen. Ad Roma. Ca 8. Li. 6. Augustin Meditation. Cap. 14.  is the Spirit of God, that dwelleth in us. Origen saith, Resurgemus propter Spiritum habitantem in nobis: Necesse est enim Spiritui reddi habitaculum suum: We shall rise again because of the Spirit, that dwelleth within us: For of necessity the Spirit must have his House restored unto him. S. Augustine saith, Haec mea tota Spes est, & omnis fiducia. Est enim in ipso jesu Christo Domino nostro uniuscuiusque nostrum portio, Caro, & Sanguis. Vbi ergo portio mea regnat, ibi ego me regnare credo: This is my whole hope, and all my trust. For in Christ Jesus our Lord is Flesh, and Blood, which is a Portion of each of us. Therefore where a Portion of mine reigneth, there I believe, that I reign too.  
S. Cyril saith, Quamuis Mors propter peccatum in Naturam nostram insilijt, tamen, 
cyril. in johan. Li. 4. Ca 15. Cyril. in johan. Lib. 8. Cap. 47.  quia Filius Dei Homo factus est, omnes profectò Resurgemus: Although Death be fallen into our Nature, yet because the Son of God is made Man, doubtless we shall all rise again. Likewise again he saith, Sic vos effeci participes Divinae Naturae, cùm Spiritum meum fecerim habitare in vobis, Christus enim in nobis est per Spiritum, Corruptionem nostram in Incorruptionem Commutans: So I made you partakers of the Divine Nature, when I caused my Spirit to dwell in you. For Christ is in us by his Spirit, changing our Corruption into Incorruption. Thus the Spirit of God is the Cause, and the worker of our Resurrection. And, to come near unto you, the Sacraments of Christ are also Means, and Instruments, and Seals hereof: but not the Causes. S. Cyril saith, Quòd Mystica Communio Resurrectionis quaedam fit Confessio, 
Cyril. in johan. Lib. 12. Cap. 58.  verbis Christi ipsius probatur. Ait enim, Hoc est Corpus Meum: Hoc in Memoriam Mei facite: That the Mystical Communion is a certain Confession of y● Resurrection, it is proved by the words of Christ himself. For he saith, This is my Body: Do this in Remembrance of me. And therefore in the Council of Nice, 
Concil. Nicen.  the Holy Mysteries are called Resurrectionis nostrae Symbola: The Pledges, or Tokens of our Resurrection. And S. Ambrose, 
De Con. Dist. 2. Non iste.  speaking distinctly hereof, saith, Non iste Panis, qui vadit in Corpus, sed Panis Vitae Aeternae, qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulcit: It is not this Bread (of the Sacrament) that passeth into the Body: but it is the Bread of everlasting Life, that sustaineth the Substance of our Soul.  
And to put the matter further out of doubt, the same force unto Resurrection, that is applied unto the Sacrament of Christ's Body, is also, and in as ample sort given to the Sacrament of Baptism. 
Basil De Sancto Baptismate. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Ignatius ad Trallien. Concil. Wormatien. Cap. 5.  S. Basile saith, Dies Paschatis est Pignus Resurrectionis: Baptisma verò est potentia, & vis ad Resurrectionem: Easter Day is a pledge of Resurrection: But Baptism is a power and strength unto Resurrection. Again he saith, Resurrectionis Gratiam in die Resurrectionis excipiamus: Upon the day of Christ's Resurrection, Let us receive (Baptism, which is) the Grace of Resurrection. Ignatius saith, Vt Credentes in Mortem eius, per Baptismum participes eius Resurrectionis efficiamini: That believing in his Death, by Baptism ye may be made partakers of his Resurrection. Therefore in the Council of Worms it is written thus: In Aquas demersio, in Infernum descensio est: Et rursus, ab Aquis emersio, Resurrectio est: The Dipping into the Water, is the goeinge down into Hell: and the coming out of the Water, is the Resurrection.  
In the end, M. harding, ye blow up merrily your own Conquest: And thus ye say, We have confuted the Doctrine, wherein ye declare your Faith: and the Chief grounds, whereon ye build your New Gospel, We have disproved: But, with so simple proofs, and so many Untruths, as, for Honour's sake, may not well be showed in your Triumph.   
❧ Here endeth the second part.   

The third part.  

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 1.  
Behold, these are the horrible Heresies, for the which a good part of the world is at this day condemned by the Bishop of Rome: & yet were never heard to plead their cause. He should have commenced his suit rather against Christ, against the Apostles, and against the Holy Fathers. For these things did not only proceed from them, but were also appointed by them: Except perhaps these men will say (as, I think, they will in deed) that Christ never instituted the Holy Communion, to be divided amongst the faithful: Or, that Christ's Apostles, and the Ancient Fathers said Private Masses, in every corner of the Temples, now ten, now twenty together in one day: Or, that Christ and his Apostles banished all the Common People from the Sacrament of his Blood: Or, that the thing, that they themselves do at this day every where, & do it so, as they condemn him for an Heretic, which doth otherwise, is not called of Gelasius their own doctor, plain Sacrilege: Or, that these be not the very words of Ambrose, Augustine, Gelasius, Theodorete, Chrysostom, and Origene, The Bread and Wine in the Sacraments remain still the same, they were before: The thing, which is seen upon the Holy Table, is Bread: There ceaseth not to be still the Substance of Bread, and Nature of Wine: The Substance, and Nature of Bread, are not changed: The self same Bread, as touching the Material Substance, goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the privy: Or, that Christ, the Apostles, & Holy Fathers prayed not in that tongue, which the people might understand: Or, that Christ hath not performed all things by that one offering, which he once offered upon the Cross: Or, that the same Sacrifice was unperfit, so that now we have need of an other.  

M. harding.  
What crack ye of a good part of the World? The greater is the number of those ye have seduced, the more grievous shall be your judgement. There be not yet many years passed, that ye boasted of your poor small flock, alluding to the fewness of the Flock, that lived with Christ in Flesh, and made their fewness an argument of the sincere Truth But now that through your evil teaching, 
* Who so wanteth dissolution, and wickedness, may seek it at Rome.  the world groweth more to be dissolute and wicked, ye boast of your number. This is certain, touching grounds of truth, the Church erreth not, as that which enjoyeth Christ's promise: and your Congregation teaching the contrary, must therefore be taken for the Children of the Father of Lies. Though ten, or twenty Masses were not said in one day by Christ, the Apostles, or Fathers, as ye scoff, when the Faith was first Preached, 
‡ Untruth. For in the time of Augustine, Ambrose▪ Jerome, etc. there were more Christians in the world, then be at this present.  and few believed, no Churches (which here not without profane malice ye name Temples) yet being builie: this is no sufficient reason, why we may not now, 
few, or many.  where the Faith is generally received, have sundry Masses in one Church in one day. Ye make much a do about both Kinds, and to aggravate the matter ye use the odious term of bannishinge the people from the Cup. We teach the people for 
* Good causes against God.  good causes to be content with one Kind, doing them to understand, they receive the whole Body of 
‡ One Dream to prove an other.  Christ, Flesh and Blood, no less, then if they received Both kinds. The Sacrilege which Gelasius speaketh of, consisteth 
* Untruth. For it stood in dividing of the Sacraments.  in dividing Christ, and the same he imputeth to the Manichees, as I have an other where declared. 
To M. jewels Challenge, Artic. 2.  And therefore as that toucheth not us, who do not divide Christ, but in the Sacrament give to the people whole Christ, so it showeth you to be either slanderous, or ignorant.  
As for the tongue of the Church Service, 
‡ How so ever Christ, and his Apostles did, the Pope, and his clergy can not do amiss.  how so ever Christ, the Apostles, and Holy Fathers prayed, the use of the Latin tongue used in the Service of the Latin Church is not by any reason or Authority ye can bring yet, so far disproved, that the Church ought to condemn the order 
* Untruth plain, and sensible. For this Order was not from the beginning.  from the beginning received, and hitherto continued.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We make no cracks of our numbers, M. harding, but humbly give God thanks, that, maugre all your practices, and policies, hath published, and proclaimed the name of his Son in every place through the world. The forth, and force thereof grieveth you now, as it did others your Fathers before you, that cried out in an agony, 
john. 12.  What shall we do? All the world runneth after him. Of them S. Cyril saith, 
cyril. In johan. Lib. 8. Ca 1.  Quicquid Christo credentium accesserit, sibi detractum putant: As many faithful Believers, as are gotten to Christ, so many, they think, are lost from the selves.  
notwithstanding, the Truth of God hangeth neither of many, nor of few. Liberius the Bishop of Rome said sometime to the Arian Emperor Constantius, 
Theodoret. Li. 2. Cap. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Non, si ego solus sum, idcircò minor est ratio Fidei: Although I be alone, yet the account of Faith is therefore no white the less. Christ compareth the Kingdom of God unto a piece of Leaven, which being little in quantity the woman taketh, and laiethe in a great Lump of dough, until the whole be all Leavened. Chrysostom saith, Nemo paucitatem vestram deploret. Magna enim est virtus Praedicationis. 
Matthae. 13. Chrysostom. in Matthae. Homil. 47.  Et quod semel fermentatum est, rursus fermentum ad coetera efficitur: Let noman bewail the small number of you. For great is the Virtue of preaching. And who so is once Leavened, is himself made leaven to leaven others. It is noted in the Gloze upon the Clementines, Veritas pedetentim cognoscitur: Truth is known by Little, and by Little. 
In Prooemio Clemen. in Gloss. Ambros. De Noah, & Arca, Ca 17. Origen. in Psal. 36. Homil. 2.  And S. Ambrose, Constat Diluuium eodem numero, quo cumulatum est, esse diminutum: It is known, that the ●loudde in the time of Noah, as it grew by degrees, so by degrees it abated. Origen saith, Ego concitabo eos in non Gentem. Nos sumus non Gens: qui pauci ex ista Civitate credimus, & alij ex alia. Et nusquam Gens integra ab initio credulitatis videtur assumpta: I shall provoke them by them, that are no people. We are they, that were no people, that Believe in Christ, a few in this City, and a few in an other. And never was there any Nation, that was taken whole at the first beginning of the Faith. The meaning hereof is this, that God calleth men, not all together, but now a few, now more, as unto his secret wisdom seemeth best. So is it written in the late Council of Basile, 
In Con. Basil. in Episto. Synodali. Pag. 152.  Spiritus Sanctus non illuminat omnes eodem tempore: Sed ubi vult, & quando vult, spirat: The Holy Ghost doth not give light to all men at one time: but breatheth where it will, and when it wil  
This is the Counsel, and the hand of God, M. harding. We may say unto you, 
Tertull in Apolog●t.  as Tertullian said sometime unto the Heathens: Exquisitior quaeque crudelitas vestra, illecebra est magis Sectae. Plures efficimur, quoties me●imur à vobis. Semen est Sanguis Christianorum: Your earnest cruelty is an entisement, and a provocation unto this Sect: As often as ye reckon us, ye find us more, and more. The Seed hereof is Christian Blood. 
few, or many, Church. Temple.  Arnobius said sometime unto the enemies of the Cross of Christ: Nun haec saltem fidem vobis faciunt argumenta credendi, qu●d iam per omnes terras, in tam brevi tempore, & parvo, immensa nominis huius Sacramenta diffusa sunt? At the least, 
Arnobius adver. Gentes, Li. 1. Proverb. 21.  do not these proofs make you believe, that, ye see, the great Secrets of this Name (of Christ) are powered abroad in so short space through all Countries?  
Fight not against God, M. harding. There is no Wisdom, there is no Counsel against the Lord.  
This is certain, ye say, touching the grounds of Faith, the Church erreth not. Whether your Church have erred, or no, and in what grounds, it shall better appear hereafter. Truly S. bernard saith of your Church, even of your Church of Rome, 
Bernard ad Cle●●● In Concil. Rhemen.  Intestina, & insanabilis facta est plaga Ecclesiae: The wound of the Church is within the bowels, and passed recovery. And again, Haec sunt infoelicissima tempora, quae praevidit Apostolus, in quibus homines sanam Doctrinam non sustinent: 
Bernard. super Salue Regina.  These be the unhappy days, that the Apostle saw before, when men cannot abide sound Doctrine. This was S. Bernardes' judgement of your Church: that it would hear no sound Doctrine: and that it for that cause seemed utterly passed recovery. Therefore so certainly to assure yourself of a thing uncertain, it was no wisdom. We may say of your Popes, and Bishops, whom only ye mean by the name of your Church, as S. Jerome said sometime of certain others your Fathers long ago: 
Hieronym. in Sophoni. Ca 3.  Non tam indignentur ●obis haec exponentibus, & Prophetis vaticinantibus, quàm Dominum deprecentur, & studios● agant, ne de Sacerdo●ibus, qui violant Sancta Domini, esse mereantur: Let them not take stomach against us, that expound these things: nor against the Prophets, that foretold these things: But let them pray unto God, and take good heed, that they be not of those Priests, that defile the Holy things of the Lord.  
Churches, ye say, not without profane malice, ye call Temples. Malice come unto him, M. harding, that Malice meaneth. The Prophet David saith, The Lord in his Holy Temple: 
Psalm. 10. 1. Corinth. 3.  S. Paul saith, Your Bodies be the Temples of the Holy Ghost: Know ye not, that ye be the Temple of God: If any man defile the Temple of God, 
2. Corinth. 6.  the Lord will destroy him: Ye are the Temple of the Living God: What agreement is there between the Temple of God, and an Idol? So many times S. Paul nameth Temples together in one place: and yet, I think, without any great profane Malice. But it shallbe lawful for you, M. harding, to make new Sins, and to say, The Apostles of Christ were malicious, & wicked, only for that they called the Church of God by the name of Temple. Would God, ye had not turned God's Temple into the synagogue of Satan. We see by your practice, it is true, 
Chrysostom. in Matthae. Homil. 38.  that S. Chrysostom saith, Sicut de Templo omne bonum egreditur, ita etiam de Templo omne Malum procedit: As every good thing proceedeth from the Temple, so every ill thing proceedeth likewise from the Temple.  
In defence of your Half Communion, ye say, For good causes ye teach the people to be content with one Kind. And thus ye force the poor people, contrary to the express Word of Christ, contrary to the example of the Apostles, and all the Holy Fathers in the Primitive Church, and contrary to the general use, and order of a whole thousand years, to give care to your good causes. But these causes, no doubt, are great, and worthy: Otherwise ye would not weigh them against God. 
Alphons. Aduersus Hares. Li. 6. De Eucharist.  But wherefore are they dissembled. Why are they not told us? Your own Doctors, Alphonsus de Castro, and john Gerson, have laid them out in this wise particularly, and at large: The danger of shedding: The carriei●ge from place to place: 
Section ultima. johan▪ Gerson De Communione Laico●.  The fowling of the Cups: The trouble of men's Beards: The Reserving for the Sick: The turning of the Wine into Vinegar: The engendringe of Pleas: The Corruption, or Putrefaction: The Lothesomenesse that may happen, for so many to Drink of one Cup: 
Halfecom munion.  The impossibility of providing one Cup, that may be sufficient to serve all the People: In some places Wine is dear: in some other places the Wine will be frorne. These, M. harding, be the fairest, and greatest of your good causes. And yet have you thus concluded in your late Chapter at trident, Si quis dixerit▪ 
Concil. Trident. De Commun sub una specie, Can. 2.  Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam non justis causis, & rationibus adductam fuisse, ut Laicos, atque etiam Clericos non conficientes, sub Panis tantummod● specie Communicaret, aut in eo errasse, Anathema sit: If any man shall say, that the Holy Catholic Church, without just Causes, and reasons her moving, doth Communicate both the laity, and also Priests, unless they Minister, under the only Form of Bread, 
Tertul De prescription.  or that the Church hath erred in the same, Accursed be he. Therefore Tertullian saith rightly of you: Credunt sine Scriptures, ut Credant Contra Scripturas: They Believe without the Scriptures, that they may Believe against the Scriptures.  
But specially, I beseech you, M. harding, consider well these words of S. Jerome, 
Hieronym. in Sophoni. Cap. 1.  and see, whether ye may apply them to yourselves, or no: In Consummatione Mundi scrutabitur Dominus Jerusalem, id est, Ecclesiam suam cum Lucerna, & ulciscetur super viros Contemptores, qui noluerunt servare Custodias suas, id est, Mandata Domini Contempserunt: & insuper Ratione se peccare dicentes, blasphemaverunt in Cordibus suis: In the end of the World our Lord shall search Jerusalem, that is to say, his Church, with a Candle, and shall wreak himself upon the despisers, that would not keep their watches, that is to say, that despised the Commandments of God: and over, and besides this, saying, they had good Causes, and Reasons, wherefore they should offend, (& break God's Commandments,) they blasphemed in their Hearts.  
That ye surmise of Gelasius, is most untrue. He speaketh not one Word there, of the dividing of Christ, as you imagine: nor had he any cause so to speak. But he saith in most plain wise, It is Sacrilege to do the same thing, that you do, that is to say, to divide the Sacrament, & to Minister the One part, as ye do, without the other. Look better on your Books: and Confess the Truth, 
De Consecrat. Dist. 2. Comperimus.  as ye shall find it. The words be these: Aut integra Sacramenta percipiant, aut ab integris arceantur. Quia divisio unius eiusdemque Mysterij sine grandi Sacrilegio non potest pervenire: Either let them receive the whole Sacraments, or else let them be driven from the whole. For the Division ofone and the same Mystery (or Sacrament) cannot happen without great Sacrilege. He speaketh not of the division of One Christ, as you tell us, but of the division of One Mystery.  
Otherwise, touching Christ, 
1. Corinth. 8. Euagri. Lib. 2. Cap. 17.  we say with S. Paul, unus Dominus jesus Christus, There is One Lord jesus Christ: And we protest with the Bishops of the east in the Council of Chalcedon, Accursed be he, that parteth Christ: Accursed be he, 
Concil. Chalcedon. Actio 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  that divideth him.  
That you say, The order of your Latin Service hath evermore been used in the Latin Church from the beginning, it is utterly untrue. For proof whereof, I remit you to my Former Reply in the third Article, & the fifteenth Division.  
The rest, that ye allege, is not worth the answearinge.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 2.  
All these things must they of necessity say, unless perchance they had rather say thus, That all Law, and Right is locked up in the treasury of the Pope's breast, and that, as once one of his soothing Pages, and clawbacks did not stick to say, the Pope is able to dispense against the Apostles, against a Council, and against the Canons and Rules of the Apostles: and that he is not bound to▪ stand, neither to the examples, 
Dispense against God's word.  nor to the ordinances, nor to the Laws of Christ.  

M. harding.  
To say, that all Law and right (your Latin term is Fas) is locked up in the treasury of the Pope's breas●te, it were absurd and unreasonable. Marry to say, that the laws rest in the Pope's breast, 
It is no reason that Divines be required to make good what so ever is written by the canonists or Schoolmen.  after a certain meaning, as hereafter shallbe declared, it is 
* Not altogether beside truth: A Cold Defence.  not altogether beside truth and reason. But Sirs, what if some mean writer, or Gloser upon the Canon Law speak somewhere out of square, if all should be exactly tried by Scripture, will ye lay that to our charge? Shall the Faith of the Catholic Church thereby be called in doubt and question? We take not upon us to Defend all that the canonists, or Schoolmen say or write: etc. In this kind or order be many things, which may rather be called rules of manners, than Principles, or such as we term Axiomata of our Faith. These although they be found written in the Scripture, for asmuch as they have been commanded by an occasion, and for some cause, they may for cause, and occasion, and, as we find in C. Lector, for necessity, by Gods depute, and Vicar be supplied, helped, expounded. And if the case so require, he in the same for a certain cause, with a certain person, for a certain time, with certain circumstances may dispense, by the same spirit, they were first founded and instituted withal, and with the same intention, to wit, for some special good, and furtherance of Godliness. Such administration of God's Law, and such dispensation thereof, as of a precious Treasure, not free or at Liberty and pleasure, but an even, just, and good dispensation, they do attribute to God's Vicar, whom this Defender calleth the Pope's Parasites, Pages, and clawbacks, himself a very Page, Slave, and clawback to the Devil.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, ye rome, and wander, & go masket, as a man, that were benighted, and had lost his way. In some cases, ye say, the Pope may dispense against God's Word: In some cases he may not. feign would ye, for shame, somewhat limit, & restrain his Immoderate Authority: but ye know not, where to lay the bounds. 
15. q. 6. Authoritatem. In Glossa. Dist. 82. Presbyter.  Ye make small account of your School Doctoures, and canonists, that is to say, of the Principal Pillars of your Catholic Church: and think them not worthy to be your guides. How be it, your labour cannot all be lost: For they will think as light of you.  
But, 
Felin. De Constitutionib. Cap. Statuta Canonum. Colum. 6. 6. q. 1. Quicunabque;. In Clossa.  for as much, as, ye say, they flatter not the Pope, nor be his Pages, or Parasites, but speak roundly to him, and tell him his own, it shall not be much amiss, to hearken a little, what they say.  
One of them saith thus, Papa potest Dispensare contra Ius Naturale: The Pope may Dispense against the Law of Nature. An other saith, Papa Dispensat contra Canones Apostolorum: The Pope Dispenseth against the Canons, or Rules of the Apostles. 
Panormi. Extra De Divortijs. Ca Fin.  another saith, Papa potest mutare formam Verborum in Baptismo: The Pope may change thee form of Words in Baptism. another saith, Privilegium dari potest contra Ius Divinum: The Pope's Privilege may be granted against the Law of God. 
Summa Angel. In Dictione Papa.  An other saith, Papa ex Maxima Causa potest Dispensare contra Nowm Testamentum: The Pope upon a very great cause may dispense against the New Testament. An other saith, Papa potest Dispensare de omnibus praeceptis veteris, 
Felin. De Constitution. Ca Statuta Canonum. Felin. De Maioritate, & Obedient. Ca 2.  & Novi Testamenti: The Pope may Dispense for any commandment of the Old, or New Testament. another saith, Papa potest Dispensare contra Epistolas Pauli: The Pope may Dispense against the Epistles of S. Paul. And somewhat to qualify the outrage of the matter, an other saith, Papa potest Dispensare contra Ius Divinum in Particulari, non in universali: The Pope may Dispense against the Law of God, in Particular, not in General. 
Idem De Maioritate, & Obedien. Ca fin.  And again, Papa potest tollere Ius Divinum ex part, non in Totum: The Pope may abolish the Law of God, in part, but not in whole.  
another saith, 
Dispense against God's Word.  Martinus Papa. 5. Dispensavit cum quodam, qui acceperat Germanam suam in Vxorem: Pope Martin, the. 5. dispensed with a man, that had taken to Wife his own Sister. Whether this report be true, or false, I refer me self to the credit of the author. 
Summa Angel. In Dictione pp. Panormita. Extra, De Electione, & Electi potest. Venerabilem.  An other saith, Papa potest Dispensare cum omnibus Personis, nisi cum Patre, & Matre: The Pope may dispense with all persons (touching Marriage) saving only with Father, and Mother (to Marry, or to be Married to their Children). An other saith, Papa potest supra Ius Dispensare: Et de Iniustitia potest facere justitiam: & Sententiam, quae nulla est, facere aliquam: Et de nihilo, facere aliquid: The Pope may dispense above the Law: the Pope of Wrong, may make Right: 
De Translatione Episco. Quanto. Hostien. De Translatione Episcop. Quamto. Heruaeus de Potestate Papae.  The Pope of no Sentence, may make a Sentence: The Pope of nothing, may make some thing. The cause hereof, as an other saith, is this, Quia Papa potest, excepto Peccato, quicquid Deus ipse potest: Sin only excepted, the Pope may do, what so ever God himself may do.  
another saith, Papa habet Authoritatem declarandi Scripturas, ita, ut non liceat oppositum tenere, vel opinari: The Pope hath Authority so to expound, and to declare the Scriptures, that it may not be lawful for any man to hold, or to think the Contrary. For Cardinalis Cusanus saith, 
Cardina. Cusan. De Authoritat. Eccle. & Conci. Supra & contra Scripturam.  as it said before, Scripturae ad tempus adaptatae sunt, & variè intellectae, ita, ut uno tempore secundum currentem universalem ritum exponantur: mutato ritu, iterum sententia mutetur: The Scriptures are applied unto the time, and are diversly derstanded: so that at one time they are taken according to the Universal current order: which order being changed, the meaning of the Scripture is changed too.  
An other demandeth a question, 
Francis. De Maron. in 4. Dist. 19 q. 1. Articul. 2. 9 quae. 3. Nemo. In Glossa.  Vtrùm Papa ex Plenitudine Potestatis possit omnia: Whether the Pope by the Fullness of his Power may do all things.  
another saith, Si totus mundus sententict contra Papam, videtur, quòd standum esse● sententiae Papae: If all the World would give sentence contrary to the Pope, yet it seemeth, we ought to stand to the sentence of the Pope. These, M. harding, by your judgement are neither Pages, nor Parasites: but good sad, and earnest friends: such as love roughly, and plainly to utter their mind, without flattery.  
This doubtless is it, that Daniel so long before Prophesied of him, Dabitur illi os loquens grandia: 
Daniel. 7.  He shall have a mouth given him uttering great, and presumptuous matters. For in deed, notwithstanding all this glorious glittering of painted Authority, 
johan. Andreas. De judicijs. Cum venissent.  yet one of the Popes own men saith, Papa non potest facere de quadrato rotundum: The Pope cannot make a square thing, round. S. bernard saith, An Regula non concordat cum evangelio, vel Apostolo? Alioqui Regularam non est Regula: 
Bernar. in Apologia ad Guliel. Abbatem.  quia non est recta: Doth not the Rule agree with the Gospel, or with the Apostle? Otherwise that Rule is no Rule at all: for it is crooked, it is not straight.  
And therefore Pope Zosimus in more sober wise saith thus, Contra Statuta Patrum condere aliquid, 
Inter Decr●ta Zosimi.  vel mutare, ne huius quidem Sedis Authoritas potest: The Authority of this See cannot order, or change any thing contrary to the orders of our Fathers.  
Isidorus saith, Is qui praeest, si praeter voluntatem, vel praeter quod in Scriptures Sanctis evidenter Praecipitur, 
11. q. 3. Si is qui.  vel dicitaliquid, vel imperat, tanquam Falsus Testis Dei, & Sacrilegus habeatur: He that is in Authority, if he speak, or Command any thing, besides the will, or meaning of God's Word, or otherwise, then is expressly commanded in the Scriptures, let him be taken as a Churcherobber, and as a false witness against God.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 3.  
We, for our part, have learned these things of Christ, of the Apostles, of the devout Fathers: and do sincerely with good faith teach the people of God the same. Which thing is the only cause why we at this day are called Heretics of the chief Prelate (no doubt) of Religion. O immortal God, hath Christ himself then, the Apostles, & so many Fathers, all at once gone astray? Were then Origene, Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, Gelasius, Theodoretus, foresakers of the Catholic Faith? Was so notable a consent of so many Ancient Bishops, and Learned men, nothing else, but a conspiracy of Heretics? Or, is that now condemned in us, which was then commended in them? Or, is the thing now, by alteration only of men's affections, suddenly become schismatic, which in them was counted Catholic? Or, shall that, which in times paste was undoubtedly true, now by and by, because it liketh not these men, be judged false? Let them then bring forth an other Gospel, & let them show the causes, why these things, which so long have openly been observed, & well allowed in the Church of God, ought now in the end to be called in again. We know well enough, the● the same Word, which was opened by Christ, and spread abroad by the Apoistles, is sufficient, both to our Salvation, & also to uphold, & maintain all Truth, & to confound all manner of Heresy. By that Word only do we condemn all sorts of the Old Heretics, whom these men say, we have called out of Hell again. As for the Arians, the Eutychians, the Marcionites, the Ebionites, the Valentinians, the Carpocratians, the Tatians, the novatians, and shortly all them, which have a wicked opinion either of God the Father, or of Christ, or of the Holy Ghost, or of any other point of Christian Religion, for so much as they be confuted by the Gospel of Christ, we plainly pronounce them for detestable, & damned persons, and defy them even unto the Devil. Neither do we leave them so, but we also severely, and streitely hold them in by lawful, and politic pounishementes, if they fortune to break out any where, and bewray themselves.  

M. harding.  
We for our part know, as now we have proved, that ye have not learned these things of Christ, nor of the Apostles, nor of the Fathers: but of Luther, Zwinglius, Oecolampadius, Caluine, Peter Martyr, Bucer, and such other Apostates: and that ye do most falsely, and wickedly lead the people into the Pit with you. And therefore ye are justly condemned by the Church, and deemed Heretics, etc.  
How condemn ye the Donatists, seeing with them ye break, and throw down the Holy Altars of God, on which (as Optatus writeth) the Body, and Blood of Christ was wont to be laid? etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Hereto, M. harding, the whole gross sum of your Answer in effect is this: Ye Falsely, and wickedly lead the people: ye are Apostates: ye are Heretics: ye are Impupudente, and rebellious Children: ye are Despisers of God: Mockers of your Mother: and perverters of the Apostles: ye utter Lies: ye speak blasphemies. At the last ye say, The Devil dwelleth in our hearts, as in his shop. This is a hasty kind of Logic, M. Harding: He must needs be hard hearted, that will not yield to such Arguments.  
To leave other your waste words, 
Auttars.  of Vigilantius, jovinian, Manichee, Aërius, and such others, in the end ye pronounce your Definitive Sentence, as a judge, and condemn us for Heretics, for that we have taken down your Shops, and gainful Booths, which ye call the Holy Altars of God. Verily, this must needs be thought, either extreme rigour, or great folly, of the remoninge of a stone to make an Heresy. Such Heresies, I trow, S. Augustine, S. Ambrose, Optatus, and other Learned Fathers knew but few.  
Neither is there any good sufficient reason to be showed, wherefore it should more be Heresy in us, to take down your peerless, and Superstitious Walls, which ye had erected of yourselves, without Commission, than it was lately in you, to tear in sunder, and to burn our Communion Tables: in the erection, and use whereof we had the undoubted example, both of Christ himself, and also of the Ancient Catholic Fathers. I say nothing of your Cruelty in burning so many Bibles, and Books of God's Holy Word: so many of your Brethren's Bodies: so many Temples of the Holy Ghost.  
As for the Altars, which, Optatus saith, the Donatists broke down, they were certainly Tables of Wood, such as we have: and not Heaps of stones, 
Artic. 3. Divi 20. August. Epist. 50. Ad Bonifacium. Athanasi. in Epist. ad Solitariam Vitam agentes.  such as ye have as in my Former Reply, made unto you, it may better appear. S. Augustine reporting the same story saith, the Donatists in their fury broke down the Aultare Bourdes: His words be these, Lignis eiusdem Altaris effractis. Likewise saith Athanasius of the like fury of the Arians: Subsellia, Thronum, Mensam Ligneam, & Tabulas Ecclesiae, & coetera, quae poterant, foras elata combusserunt: They carried forth, and burnt the Seats, the pulpit, the Wooden Board, the Church Tables, and such other things, as they could grate.  
touching your Stone Altars, Beatus Rhenanus saith, 
B. Rhenan. in Epistola praefixa● Liturgiae Chrysostom.  In nostris Basilicis Ararum Superaddititia structura novitatem prae se sert: In our Churches the building up of Altars, added to the rest, declareth a novelty.  
We have such Altars, M. harding, as Christ, his Apostles, S. Augustine, Optatus, and other Catholic, and Holy Fathers had, and used: whoes example's to follow, we never thought it to be such Heresy.  
But Optatus saith, The Body, and Blood of Christ was wont to be laid upon the Aultare: and with these words ye would feign affonne your simple Reader, as if Christ's Body lay there Really, Fleashely, Verily, and in deed. But ye should 
Augu. ad Bonifaci. Epistiol. 23.  remember, that S. Augustine saith, Sacramentum Corporis Christi secundum quendam modum Corpus Christi est: Et Sacramentum Sanguinis Christi secundum quendam modum Sanguis Christi est: The Sacrament of Christ's Body (not verily, and in deed, but) after a certain manner of speech is Christ's Body: and the Sacrament of Christ's Blood, after a certain manner of speech is the Blood of Christ. 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Hoc est, quod. in Glossa.  This manner of Speech your own Gloze thus expoundethe, Vocatur Corpus Christi, id est, Significat Corpus Christ: It is called the ●ody of Christ, that is to say, It Signifieth the Body of Christ. And, as Optatus saith, Christ's Body and Blood were laid upon the Aultare, or Communion Table, even to S. Aug●stine saith, The whole people was in the Communion Cup, and laid upon the Holy Table. 
August. ad Infants. Citatur à Beda in 1. Cor. 10.  These be his words, Vos estis in Mensa: Vos estis in Calais: You are upon the Table: You are in the Cup. As the people is upon the Table, so is Christ's Body upon the Table. The People is not laid, there verily, and in deed, but only in a Mystery: Even so the Body of Christ, as Op●●us saith, is laid there, not verily, and in deed, nor in Real, and fleshly Presence, but in a Mystery.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 1.  
In deed we grant, that certain new and very strange sects, as the anabaptists, Libertines, Menonians, and Zwenckfeldians have been stirring in the World, ever since the Gospel did first springe. But the World seeth now right well, thanks be geeven to our God, that we have neither bread, nor taught, nor kept up these Monsters. In good folowship, I pray thee, who so ever thou be, read our Books, they are to be sold in every place. What hath there ever been written by any of our company, that might plainly bear with the madness of any of those Heretics? Nay, I say unto you, there is no Country this day so free from their Pestilent infections, as these be, wherein the Gospel is freely, & commonly preached. So that, if they weigh the very matter with earnest, and upright advisement, this thing is a great Argument, that this same Doctrine, which we teach, is the very Truth of the Gospel of Christ. For lightly neither is cockle wont to grow without the wheat, nor yet the chaff without the Corne. For from the very Apostles times, who knoweth not, how many Heresies did rise up even together, so soon as the Gospel was first spreadde abroad? Who ever had heard tell of Simon, Menander, Saturninus, Basilides, Carpocrates, Cherinthus, Ebion, Valentinus▪ Secundus, Marcosius; Colorbasius, Heracleo, Lucianus, Severus, and other like, before the Apostles were sent abroad? But why stand we reckoning up these? Epiphanius rehearseth up four score sundry Heresies: and Augustine many more, which did springe up even together with the Gospel. What then? Was the Gospel therefore not the Gospel, because Heresies sprang up withal? Or was Christ therefore not Christ?  
And yet, as we said, doth not this great crop, and heap of Heresies grow up amongst us, which do openly, abroad, and frankly teach the Gospel. These poisonnes take their beginnings, their encreasinges, and strength amongst Our Adnersaries, in blindness and in darkness, amongst whom Truth is with tyranny, and cruelty kept under, and cannot be heard, but in Corners, and secret meetings. But let them make a proof: Let them give the Gospel free passage: Let the Truth of jesus Christ give his clear light, and stretch forth his bright beams into all parts: and then shall they forthwith see, how all these shadows straight will vanish, and pass away at the light of the Gospel, even as the thick Mist of the night consumeth at the sight of the Son. For whilst these men sit still, and make merry, and do nothing, we continually repress, and put back all those Heresies, which they falsely charge us to nourish, and maintain.  

M. harding.  
As for Libertines, what other Substance hath your Gospel, 
Liberty.  besides carnal liberty, and licentious living? 
Libertines. The Doctrine of the Libertines Gospel.  To break the vow of chastity solemnly made to God, by whose grace, and your endeavour it might well have been kept, and to break it for wantonness, and to satisfy lust: is not that proper to Libertines? To give over fasting, watching in prayer, and ConfesSion of Sins, which should be made to a Priest, by 
* Most Vain Untruth. See the Answer.  whom only (except in case of necessity) God promiseth forgiveness: To regard no Tradition, though it came from the Apostles: briefly, to teach that all kind of outward Godliness is superstitious, and Pharisaical, and that every man must without staggaring, or doubting believe, that himself shallbe saved, if he have Faith, 
‡ Untruth, joined with vile slander.  do he what him list, is this no point of liberty? What made so many malapert Prentices, pleasant Courtiers, discoursing parliament Machiavellistes', and all other what so ever flesh worms, Merchants, idle artificers, to embrace your Gospel, rather than the graver and devouter sort of men, which be weaned from the pleasure of this life: but that it was plausible to the World, and pleasant to the Flesh, from which that kind of men are most hardly drawn? And yet foresoothe do not ye foster up Libertines.  
Who can reckon the sects that be in Germany, 
Bemelande. Silesia. Moravia.  being 
* Four great Untruths all together.  sixteen or more professed in some one town? Bemelande is almost as full of Heresies, as of Houses. Silesia is as bad, and Moravia a Country there adjoininge is never a whit better. And yet do not these Sects bud, where your Gospel is freely, and openly preached?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. Harding, I have purposely left out a great heap of your talk, not thinking it needful, to answer all your void words. Having no more regard, what ye say, it was no hard matter for you to call us Libertines, and to say, The Gospel, that we Preach, hath none other Substance, but Carnal Liberty, and Licenceous Living. If ye had remembered, either the City of Rome, where ye have been, or the Town of Anwarpe, or Louvain, where ye now dwell, ye could not well, without blushing, have charged us with Carnal Liberty.  
Our Wantoness, and Fleashewoormes, for so it liketh you to call them, have been contented to forsake Fathers, Mothers, Wives, Children, goods, and livings, & meekly to submit themselves to the extreme terror of all your Cruelties, and to yield their bodies unto the Death: to be starved for hunger: and to be burnt in Fiere: Only for the name, and Gospel of jesus Christ. Ye will say, as your wont is, when ye have nothing else to say, They died stubbornly in wilful error. Yet, I reckon, ye will not say, They died in great pleasance, or Carnal Liberty. It is a strange kind of Fleashely Wantonness, for a man to deny himself, and to take up his Cross, and to follow Christ. And yet is this the whole Substance of our Gospel.  
justinus the Martyr, notwithstanding he was an Heathen, and thought then, even as you do now, that the Professors of the Name of Christ, were nothing else, but a sort of Wanton, and wilful people, yet when he saw, how constantly they died, and how patiently they suffered, what so ever was laid upon them, he was at length converted himself, and by their example became a Christian: 
Euseb. Li. 4. ca 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sozom. Li 1 Ca 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  Thus Eusebius reporteth his words, Ego ipse Platonis Disciplinis delectatus, etc. ● me self taking pleasure in Plato's Doctrine, and hearing the Christians is spoken of, and seeing them to go courrageously, and boldly to their Death, and to suffer all such things, as were thought most terrible, I thought it a thing impossible, that such men should live wickedly, or in Wantonness.  
So likewise writeth Sozomenus touching the same, The Christians being spoiled of their goods, and regarding nothing, that they had, being h●nged on gibbett●s, and suffering all manner torments so without care, or sense, as if their bodies had not been their own, 
one Head. one judge  neither alured with flattery, nor amazed with threats, they gave all men hereby to understand, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Psal. 119.  that they suffered these things (not of Wantonness, but) for some great reward.  
The Prophet David saith, In quo corriget adolescens viam suam? In custodiendo Sermones tuos: Whereby shall a young man (not grow to be a fleshly wanton, but) amend his life, and correct his way? He answereth: (O Lord) by the keeping of thy words.  
Therefore we may justly say to you, 
cyril. Contra julian. Lib. 7. Pag. 162.  as Cyrillus said sommetime to julianus the Renegade in like case, Etiam pueri in Sacris Literis enutriti, statim fiunt religiosissimi, etiamsi minùs eloquentes: Even our Children being brought up in the Holy Scriptures, straight way become most Godly: although not so eloquent, or welspoken.  
If there be any such Flesh worms, and Wantoness this day, they be not the Gospelers, which word so much offendeth you: they be of you, and of yours, M. harding, that is, not the professors, but the Mockers, & wilful despisers of the Gospel.  
Ye say, Confession should be made unto the Priest, By whom Only (ye say) God hath promised forgiveness of sin. I beseech you, where find you this promiss? Show the words: Allege the Place: Regard your Credit. Otherwise, ye will be noted of Untruth. Where did God, or Christ, ever say, forgiveness of Sin is geeven only by the Priest? If it be so in deed, then why doth Chrysostom say, 
Chrysost. De Poeniten▪ & Confession.  Nunc necessarium non est, Praesentibus Testibus confiteri? Solus Deus te confitentem videat: Now it is not needful, to make Confession in the Presence of witnesses. Let God Only See thee making thy Confession. Why doth S. Jerome say, 
Hieron. in Matthae. Cap. 16.  Apud Deum, non Sententia Sacerdotum, sed reorum vita quaeritur: It is not the Sentence, or Absolution of the Priest, but the Life of the Sinner, that is regarded before God. How be it, hereof we have sufficiently said before.  
Luther, ye say, first procured, that men should acknowledge no One Head, and judge: Whom, as by your report, S. Cyprian saith, they might obey, as the Vicar of Christ. Of this One Head, & One judge, neither Christ, nor his Apostles ever told us. S. Cyprian, 
Cypria. De Sim Praelatorum. Chrysostom in Matthae. Hom. 35.  as it is said before, saith thus, Christus Parem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem: Christ gave unto all his Apostles Equal Power. And S. Chrysostom saith, Quicunque desiderat Primatum in Terra, inveniet in Caelo confusionem: Who so ever seeketh the Primacy in Earth, he in Heaven shall find Confusion.  
The place of S. Cyprian, touching One Head, and One judge, is well alleged by you, M. harding: but il applied. It is true, that S. Cyprian saith, The People ought to obey One judge, or One Head, as the Vicar of Christ. But that by the same One Head, or judge, he meant either the Bishop of Rome, or any one other certain several Bishop, it is most untrue. S. Cyprians meaning is, 
In the Former Reply, Artic. 4. Divi. 5.  as I have otherwhere more largely declared, that in every Diocese the People ought to know One Bishop, as Head, and judge, and him to obey, as the Vicar of Christ. One Head, or judge, I say, in every Diocese: not One Universal Head over all the World. For proof whereof, M. Harding, read S. Cyprians Epistle unto Florentinus Pupianus: and ye shall find, that he useth the self same words of himself, and not of the Pope: & I doubt not, but ye will much marvel, and mislike your own error. His words be these, unde Schismata, & Haereses obortae sunt, 
Cyprian. Lib. 4. Epist. 9  & oriuntur, nisi dum Episcopus, qui unus est, & Ecclesiae praeest. Superba quorundam praesumptione contemnitur? Where hence have Schisms, and Heresies sprung up, or wherehence do they springe, unless it be, that the Bishop, which is One, and ●uleth the Church, by the proud presumption of certain is despised?  
Here S. Cyprian calleth himself that One Bishop, and that One Head, and judge of the Church. 
Dissensions among the Fathers.  Yet was he only the Bishop of Carthage in Aphrica: and not the Pope, or Bishop of Rome. Hereof I have spoken more at large in my Former Reply.  
Touching the Pope, 
Artic. 4. Divi. 5.  wherein he may be known for Christ's Vicar, it were hard to say: unless it be for that, where so ever the Pope is present, there Christ is away. 
Chrysost in Matthae. Homil. 6.  Chrysostom saith, Qui vanam gloriam non desiderat, ille debet Christi Vicarius factus, Christi justitiam praedicare: He, that desireth not vain glory, being made Christ's Vicar, aught to preach the Justice of Christ.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 1.  
Where they say, that we have fallen into sundry Sects, and would be called, some of us Lutherans, & some of us zwinglians, & cannot yet well agree among ourselves, touching the whole Substance of our Doctrine, what would these men have said, if they had been in the first times of the Apostles, and Holy Fathers: when one said, I hold of Paul: and other, I hold of Cephas: an other, I hold of Apollo? When Paul did so sharply rebuke Peter? When upon a falling out, Barnabas departed from Paul? When, as Origen mentioneth, the Christians were divided into so many factions, as that they kept no more, but the name of Christians in common among them, being in no manner of thing else like to Christians? When, as Socrates saith, for their dissensions, & sundry Sects, they were laughed, & jested at openly of the people in their stages, & common gameplaies? When, as Constantine the Emperor affirmeth, there were such a number of Variances, & brawlings in the Church, that it might justly seem a misery far passing all the former miseries? When also Theophilus, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Augustine, Ruffian, Jerome, being all Christians, being all Fathers, being all Catholics, quarreled one against an other, with most bitter, and most remediless contentions without end? When, as saith Nazianzene, the parts of one Body were consumed and wasted one of an other? When the whole east part of the Church was divided from the West, only about leavened Bread, and only for the keeping of Easter day: which were in deed no great matters to be strived for? And when in all Councils New Creeds, and New Decrees continually were devised?  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The sum of M. hardings answer hereto is this, that the bitter dissensions, that in Old times fell out amongst the Learned, and Godly Fathers, stood rather 
* A manifest Untruth of M. hardings.  in matters of manners, and other small quarrels, then in cases, and questions of the Faith. For trial of the truth herein, it may please you to consider well these few.  
Papias, 
Hieronym. in Hierem. Lib. 4. Irenae. li. 4. ca 73. Clemens Stromat. Lib. 3. & 5. justinus in Apologia.  Apollinarius, Victorinus, Tertullianus, Irenaeus, Lactantius, & others, descended the Heresy of the Chiliastae, that said, Christ after the General judgement should dwell here a thousand years together upon the Earth. Irenae us held, that Man at the beginning, when he was first created, was unperfit. Clemens Alexandrinus, and justinus held, That the Angels fell, and effended God, in that they desired the company of Women. But it shallbe in vain to stand long herein. 
Dissensions among the Fathers.  For of such examples there is great store.  
To come near the purpose, Theophilus calleth Epiphanius Haeresiarcham, that is, The grand Captain, and Father of Heretics: Gennadius saith, S. Augustine was not far of from being an Heretic. S. Jerome, 
Erasm in Vita Chrysostomi.  writing unto S. Augustine, saith thus. In Epistola tua quaedam Haeretica esse iudicavi: I judged, that there were certain Heretical errors in your Epistle. 
Gennadius De Ecclesiast. Scriptoribus.  Pope Bonifacius 2. said, that Aurelius the Bishop of Carthage, and S. Augustine, and other Godly, and Learned Fathers in the Council of Aphrica, were pricked on, and inspired by the Devil. S. Augustine willeth S. Jerome to acknowledge his error, 
Hieronym in Epistola ad Augu. Bonifac. 2. in Epist. ad Eulaltum. August. ad Hieronym Epist. 9  and to recant. Thus be saith, Accipe Severitatem Christianam ad illud opus corrigendum, atque emendandum: & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut, dicitur, Cane: Take unto you Christian Severity, to correct and amend that Book (of yours): and recant your error.  
Thus much I thought good briefly to touch: not meaning thereby to deface the Authority of the Ancient Fathers: but somewhat to open the truth of M. hardings tale, and to show, that these, and other like Bishops, and Fathers, notwithstanding they were Learned, and Godly, and worthy Members of the Church of God, yet were they not void of their infirmities.  
Erasmus, 
Erasm. in Praef. in Tom. 2. Hieronymi. Ibidem.  a man of great judgement, saith thus, Illis temporibus ingeniosa res fuit, esse Christianum: In those days it was a great point of Wisdom, to know, how to be a Christian Man.  
And again, Illa aetate in Chartis erat Fides potiùs, quàm in animo: ac penè tot erant Symbola, quot Professores: At that time (of the Ancient Fathers) the Faith was in Books rather, then in the Heart. And in a manner there were as many sundry Creeds, as there were Professors of the Faith.  
Therefore Clemens Alexandrinus saith, the Heathens thus upbraided the Christians, 
Clemens, Stromat. Lib. 7.  for the strives, and dissensions, that were among them: Vos Christiani dissidetis inter vos, & tot Sectas habetis: quae licet omnes Christianismi titulum sibi vendicent, tamen alia aliam execratur, & condemnat. Quare vestra Religio vera non est: nec à Deo originem ducit: Ye Christians dissent among yourselves: and maintain so many Sects. Which Sects, notwithstanding they all Claim the title of Christian Religion, Yet one of them curseth, and condemneth an other. Therefore your Religion is not true, nor hath her beginning, or ground from God.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 1.  
What would these men (trow ye) have said in those days? Which side would they specially then have taken? And which would they then have forsaken? Which Gospel would they have believed? Whom would they have accounted for Heretics, and whom for Catholics? And yet, what a stir, and revel keep they this day, only upon the two poor Names of Luther, and Zwinglius? Because these two men are not yet fully resolved upon some one certain point of Doctrine, therefore would they needs have us think, that both of them were deceived: that neither of them had the Gospel: and that neither of them taught the truth aright.  

M. harding.  
After many things by these Defenders alleged, for proof of Dissension to have been among the Apostles, the faithful people in S. Paul's time, the Bishops and Holy Fathers of the primitive Church, whereby they would persuade, if they could, that their own division into sects, and dissensions, is not a mark of false Doctrine: at length, as though they had won the filled, and tried themselves proper men, triumphing over us, as though we had nothing to say, with a great courage they demand this question of us, which though it be but one in effect, yet with a kind of bravery they seem to divide into sundry branches, and thus they say: What would these men (they mean the Papists) then, trow ye, have said in those days? Which side would they then have taken, and which would they have forsaken? Which Gospel would they have believed? Whom would they have accounted for Heretics, and whom for Catholics?  
touching these four interrogatories, 
A fourfold answer to the four questions.  if we had then been alive, being of the mind we be now of, we would have requirred you with four answers of the Holy and most Learned Father S. Jerome, and would have said, as in the like state of times in a Learned Epistle he said to the Learned Pope Damasus, touching the Heresies, which he found in Syria at his first coming thither from Rome. 
Epistolarun Tomo. 2. The first answer.  first, Mihi Cathedram Petri, & fidem Apostolico ore laudatam censui consulendam: inde nunc meae animae postulans cibum, unde olim Christi Vestimenta suscepi.  
Which words, taking upon me the Person of all Faithful and Catholic folks, thus I English: In these controversies, I have thought good for counsel (what I ought to believe) to repair to the Chair of Peter, and to the faith of the Roman Church praised by Paul the Apostle own Mouth. And from thence now require I the food of my soul, from whence I received the garments of Christ. To speak the same more shortly, and more plainly, In the Catholic Church I look to have the food of my soul to everlasting Life, in which I was first Christened.  
secondly we would with him have said, one speaking for all, directing our words (as he did) to those that be of the Catholic faith, 
The second answer.  whom ye call Papists: Vos estis lux mundi, vos sal terrae, vos aurea vasa & Argentea: h●c testacea vasa vel lignea, Virgam ferream, & Aeternum operiuntur incendium. Ye are the Light of the World, ye are the Salt of the Earth, ye are Golden and Siluerne Vessels: here (among the Gospelers) are the Earthen and Wooden Vessels, which must abide the iron rod, and flame everlasting.  
Thirdly with him (one likewise bearing the person of all) we would have said to Pius the fourth that now sitteth in the Peter's Chair, 
The third answer.  as he then said to Damasus: Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens, beatitudini tuae, id est, Cathedrae Petri, Communione consocior. Super illam Petram aedificatam Ecclesiam scio. Quicunque extra hanc Domum agnum comederit, Prophanus est: Si quis in Arca Noë non fuerit, peribit regnant Diluuio. Making none, but Christ first of all whom to follow, I join in fellowship of Communion with thy holiness, that is to say, with the see of Peter. Upon that Rock I know the Church is builded. Who so ever eateth the Lamb without the compass of this house, he is Profane. If any remain without the Ark of Noah, he shallbe lost, when the flood reigneth.  
Fourthly touching the Authors of this New Gospel, 
The fourth answer.  with the same Jerome we say, all under the Person of one: Non novi Vitalem, Meletium respuo, ignoro Paulinum. Quicunque tecum non colligit, spargit, hoc est, qui Christi non est, Antichristi est▪ Vitalis I know not, Melerius I refuse, Paulinus I wot not what he is (these were head Heretics in S. Hieromes time). Who so ever gathereth not together with thee (Holy Pastor) he scattereth abroad, that is to wit, who is not of Christ's side, he is of Antichrist's side. To transfer this to ourselves, the names changed, the case remaining like, for our answer to our Gospel prelate's, we say: Luther we know not: Zuinglius, Oecolampadius, Bucer, Peter Martyr, Latimer, Ridly, Cranmer, Hooper, we reject and refuse: Caluine, Beza, jewel, Pilkinton, Grindal, Horn, and their fellows, what they are, we wot not. We see they are not gatherers with the supreme Pastor of the Catholic Church, but scatterers.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It appeareth by that hath been already said, that the Gospel of Christ is now misliked, & doubted of you, as it was in Old times of the Infidels, and Heathens. 
Chryso. in Acta. Homil. 33.  Chrysostom there of saith thus, Venit Gentilis, & dicit, vellem fieri Christianus: Sed nescio, cui adhaeream. Multae inter vos sunt pugnae, Seditiones, ac tumuitus. Nescio, 
Dissensions among the Fathers.  quod dogma eligam, quod praeferam. Singuli dicunt, Ego Verum dico: The Infidel, or Heathen cometh, and saith, I would be a Christian man: but I know not, whom I should follow. There is much strife, and dissenssion, and trouble amongst you. I cannot tell, what Doctrine to choose, to set before other. For every one of you will say: I say the Truth. As ye agree well with them in Form of Words, so, I pray God, ye agree not with them in Faith, & Spirit, & contempt of God. The same Chrysostom speaking, not only of the Heretics, but also of the Faithful Christians, that were in his time, saith thus▪ 
Chryso. in Epist. ad Galat. Cap. 1.  Hanc ob causam ridiculi facti sumus, & Gentibus, & judaeis: dum Ecclesia in mill partes discinditur: For this cause we are scorned, and laughed at, both of jews, and Gentiles: while as the Church is thus rent into a thousand parts.  
Therefore it was not amiss, M. harding, to demand you this question, which of these sides ye would have followed: and which of all these Gospels ye would have believed. For it may well be thought, that being minded as they were, ye would have answered, as they did.  
But ye say, ye would rather have said, as S. Jerome sommetime said to Pope Damasus, touching the Heresies, which he found in Syria.  
If ye would use S. Hieromes answer, M. harding, & say unto the Pope, as S. Jerome said, Perhaps ye should deserve no great thanks for your labour. For S. Jerome in that self same place, beside sundry others, utterly denieth the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. 
Hieronym ad Damasum. Nullum Primum.  His words be plain, Ego Nullum Primum, nisi Christum, sequens, Beatitudini tuae, id est, Cathedrae Petri Communione Consocior: I following no First Man, (that is to say, No Head, or Chief) but Only Christ, am joined as a fellow in Communion unto thy Blessedness, that is to say, to Peter's Chair. S. Jerome telleth the Pope, He knoweth No first, No Chief, No Head, no not the Pope himself, but only Christ. Again, he saith not, I am thrall, and subject to thy commandments: But, I am joined, 
Beatitudini tuae Communione Consoctor.  as a fellow, in Communion unto thy Blessedness. Fellowship will hardly stand with that Universal power, which you imagine, the Pope ought to have over the whole Church of God. Verily the Pope himself would take it in scorn, if you this day would follow S. Jerome, and call him your Fellow.  
But S. Jerome saith, He agreeth in Faith, and Religion with Damasus. And what great marvel is this, that being a Godly Learned man, he would leave Vitalis, and Meletius, and other Heretics, and join himself to that Bishop, whom he knew to be Godly, & Catholic? Hereof he writeth thus himself, Vineam Christi exterminant vulpes: Vt inter lacus contritos, qui aquam non habent, difficilè, 
Hieronym ad Damasum.  ubi Fons Signatus, & Horrus ille Conclusus sit, possit intelligi. Ideò mihi Cathedram Petri, & Fidem Apostoli Ore laudatam censui consulendam: The Foxes destroy the vinyeard of Christ: so that among these broken cisterns, that have no Water, it is hard to understand, where is that Sealed Fountain, and that Enclosed Orchard. Therefore I thought it good, to hearken to S. Peter's Chair, and to that Faith, which was commended by the Apostles mouth.  
S. Jerome from his youth was brought up in Rome: He was Christened in Rome: He had been a Studente in Rome: He had taught a School in Rome: He had been Secretary to Damasus the Bishop of Rome: He was a Priest of Rome: And of late they have furnished him with a cardinals Hat, as if he had been a Cardinal of Rome: 
In Vita Hieron.  And as it is thought by some, saving for some displeasure, that certain of the clergy had conceived against him, he was like to be chosen the Bishop of Rome. What great maruelle therefore is it, if he had some special affection to the See of Rome? Alphonsus de Castro saithe, That the Franciscane Freers be sworn to Duns: 
Recourse to Peter's. Chair.  and that he heard a Dominicane friar say openly in his Sermon, that he was to be suspected, as an Heretic, 
Alphonsus' Adverse. Haeres. Li. 1. Cap. 7.  that in any thing dissented from Thomas of Aquine. There is noman lightly, but hath a special credit in some One man before all others.  
But how holdeth this Argument, M. harding: S. Jerome joined with a Godly Bishop: Ergo, We must join with a wicked Bishop? Or, S. Jerome agreed in Faith, and Religion with Damasus: Ergo, we must agree with one, that doth all things of purpose contrary to Damasus. So might you say, The Godly people of the jews were bound to obey Aaron, and Moses: Ergo, all others, that followed afterward, were likewise bound to obey Annas, and Caiphas.  
The Faith of Christ, M. harding, goeth not always by Succession. The Bishops of Rome have been Arians, Nestorians, Monothelites, and otherwise found in horrible Heresies: as hereafter shallbe showed. Would ye in such cases have recourse to him, that sitteth in Peter's Chair? Would ye say to such a one, You are the Salt of the Earth: You are the Light of the World? Would ye say, This is the Faith, that was commended by the Apostles Mouth?  
Truly, S. Jerome himself, when he saw Abuses, or Errors maintained in the Church of Rome, made small account of S. Peter's Chair. For thus he saith, 
Hierony. ad Euagrium.  Quid mihi profers unius Vrbis Consuetudinem? Potentia Divitiarum, & paupertatis humilitas, vel sublimiorem, vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit. Coeterùm omnes Apostolorum Successores sunt. What tellest thou me of the Custom of that One City (of Rome?) The Power of Richesse, and the humility of Poverty, cannot make a Bishop either Higher, or Lower. All Bishops are the Successors of the Apostles.  
As for Luther, Zuinglius, Peter Martyr, Caluine, & others, ye say, ye know them not. Neither doth it so greatly force, whom you list to know. God give you Grace to know your sel●●s. 
2. Tim. 2.  The Lord is able to know his own.  
Touching the dissensions in Religion, which ye imagine to be amongst us, I will say nothing. It grieveth you full soar, to see, that in all the Articles of the Faith, and in the whole Substance of Doctrine, we do so quietly join together. The Ancient Father Leo, 
Leo in Epiphania, Sermo. 6.  of the like case, saith thus▪ Diabolus Gentium vocatione Cruciatur, & quotidiana potestatis suae destructione torquetur: dolens utique se deseri, & Verum Regem in locis omnibus adorari. Parat frauds: Fingit dissensiones: The Devil is soar grieved with the calling of the Heathens (to the Faith) and with the daily decreasinge of his power: sorrowing to see himself forsaken, and (Christ) the True King to be worshipped in all places. Therefore he diviseth guiles: and imagineth dissensions.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 1.  
But, Good God, what manner of fellows be these, which blame us for disagreeing? And do all they themselves, ween you, agree well together? is every one of them fully resolved, what to follow? Have there been no strives, no quarrels, no debates amongst themselves at no time? Why then do the Scotistes & the Thomists about that they call Meritum Congrui, & Meritum Condigni, no better agree together? Why agree they no better among themselves concerning Original Sin in the Blessed Virgin: Concerning a Solemn Vow, and a Single Vow? Why say their canonists that Auriculare Confession is appointed by the positive Law of man: and their Schoolmen contrariwise, that it is appointed by the Law of God? Why doth Albertus Pius dissent from Caietanus? Why doth Thomas dissent from Lombardus, Scotus from Thomas, Occamus from Scotus, Alliacensis from Occamus? And why do their Nominalles disagree from their reals? And yet say I nothing of so many diversities of Freres and Monks: how some of them put a great Holiness in eating of Fish, and some in eating of Herbs: some in wearing of shoes, and some in wearing of sandals: some in going in a Linen garment, and some in woollen: some of them called white, some black: some being shaven broad, and some narrow: some stalking upon Patens, some going barefooted: some girt, and some ungirte. They ought yewis to remember, there be some of their own company, which say, that the Body of Christ is in his Supper Naturally: Contrary other some of the self same company deny it utterly. Again, that there be others of them, which say, the Body of Christ in the Holy Communion is rent and torn with teeth: & some again, that deny the same. some also of them there be, which writ, that the Body of Christ in the Sacrament is quantum, that is to say, hath his perfit quantity in the Sacrament: Some others again say, nay. That there be others of them, which say, Christ did Consecrate with a certain Divine Power: some, that he did the same with his Blessing: some again that say, he did it with uttering Five Solemn chosen words: and some, with rehearsing the same words afterward again. some will have it, that, when Christ did speak those Five words, the Material wheaten Bread was pointed unto by this Demonstrative Pronoune, Hoc: some had rather have, that a certain vagum individuum, as they term it, was meant thereby. Again, others there be, that say, Dogs and Mice may truly, and in very deed eat the Body of Christ: and others again there be, that steadfastly deny it. There be others, which say, that the very Accidents of Bread and Wine may nourish: others again there be, which say, that the Substance of the Bread returneth again by a Miracle. What need I say more? It were over long, and tedious, to reckon up al. So uncertain, and full of doubts is yet the whole Form of these men's Religion, and Doctrine, even amongst themselves, from whom it sprang, and grew up first. For hardly at any time do they well agree between themselves: except it be peradventure, as in times passed, the Phariseis, and Saduceis: or as Herode and Pilare accorded together against Christ.  

M. harding.  
What so ever ye bring▪ 
The dissensions, with which the Defenders charge the Catholic Church.  for some show of diversity and dissension to be found among the Caetholikes, it may be reduced to two heads. The one containeth a diversity in points of learning: the other in trades of Life. Concerning matters of learning, thanked be our Lord, for that the very enemies of the Catholic Church, cannot charge the Catholics with dissension in any of the grounds, and Articles of our Faith. As for small matters, and questions disputable on both sides, they may therein dissent one learned man from an other without blame, the Faith remaining inviolated.  
But, good sir Defender, what meant you to name the Nominals and Reals? Understand you what they be? If a man should upon the sudda●ne demand of you that question, 
* A great doubtful question. Every poor Logician may easily know it.  perhaps you would be to seeking of an answer. Sir if you be an Oxford man, as I suppose you be, you may remember, if ever you learned your Logic after that trade it was taught in, when we resorted to the parvis there, what ado was made in daily disputations for exercise of young wits, about Genus and Species, and the rest of the Universals: Whether they were termini Primae, or Secundae intentionis, whether they were entia Realia, or Rationis. Which is a matter perteigninge to Logic, not to Divinity. Now some Schoolmen be of the opinion, that the five Universals be termini, or nomina secundae intentionis: And they be called thereof Nominals. Some hold opinion, they are entia realia, and thereof they be named Reals, etc. In the behalf of those Holy Religious men, 
The Catholic Religious men put no holiness in outward observances.  we tell you, ye are to blame to bely them. For what Discipline and order of Life so ever they have addicted themselves unto, for better opportunity to serve God: truth is truth, they put not great Holiness (as ye say) in eating of Fish, nor of Herbs: in Shoes, nor in Sandals: in Linen, nor in Woollen garments: in white, nor in black: in broad, nor in narrow Crowns: in going on Patens, nor on the bare ground: in girding themselves, nor in being Vngirded. They be not so ignorant, as to put Holiness in such outward things, though their obedience performed in the humble observation of these outward things according to their rule, 
To what end be those observances of the Religious. Elias.  be an Holy thing. These things they use for restraint of their will, and for discipline, according to the order, and rule, under which, the better to serve God, they have promised obediently and humbly to live. Neither put they more holiness in the things by you scoffed at, them Elias did in his mantel and leathern girdle, wherewith he girded his loins: then john Baptist did in eating of Locusts and wild Honey, in wearing a garment of camels hear, and in girding himself about the loins with a skin.  
But I pray you, 
4. Reg. 1. john Baptist.  Sirs, who be ye? if we would follow your lightness, have we not like matter of diversity in outward things, 
Matth. 3.  to twit you withal: but that your diversity is with breach of due order, and Law, and that of religious men is according to order, and rule? If ye think diversity in things of their own Nature indifferent, as meats, apparel, shaving, etc. worthy to be reprehended, and deduce from thence an argument of mutual dissension: among your ministering clergy is not likewise diversity found? Do not some among you wear square Caps, some round Caps, some button caps, some only Hats? Do not some wear side gowns having large sleeves, with Tippettes, which is not well liked of your sect, some of more perfection Turkey gowns, Gaberdeines, frocks, or night gowns of the most lay fashion for avoiding of Superstition? The thing is indifferent, and may be yielded unto, saith the one sect: They be the Pope's rags, and may not be worn, saith tother Sect. And therefore they will rather be justly put from that which justly they cannot keep, then yield one jot. Neither her majesties commandment, nor their Metropolitans decree care they for. They had rather seem to the people, whom they use for their Clawebackes, and to whose judgement they stand or fall, stout Champions of their own Gospel, then meek followers of Christ's Gospel. Such mighty Samsons, such constant Laurences, your jolly Gospel breedeth.  
Some say, 
Christ's Body torn with teeth, how is it understanded?  the Body of Christ in the Communion is torn and crushed with Teeth, some deny it. Yea forsooth, and both mean right well. The hundred and thirteen Bishops assembled in Council at Rome under Pope Nicolaus the second, prescribed such form of Recantation to Berengarius the first Auctor of the sacramentary Heresy, openly there to pronounce, acknowledge, and with subscription to ratify, as he should confess the very true Body of Christ, not only the Sacrament thereof, 
Berengarius Recantation.  sensibly and in verity to be handled with the hands of the Priests, 
‡ This was a blasphemous, and horrible error.  to be broken and crushed with Teeth of the Faithful. By which words these Father's mind was to express a verity of Real Presence, 
* The true eating of Christ's Body is Spiritual: This imagined eating with Mouth, and Teeth, is Heathennishe, and Fantastical, and hath no truth.  a true eating of Christ's Body in deed, and to exclude the only spiritual eating, so as the old Fathers did Eat Christ in their Manna. Neither is thus Doctrine dissonant from the Fathers, 
Nominales Reales.  specially from Chrysostom, who hath the like words, Homilia. 45. in johan. How so ever our Saviour Christ consecrated, 
Curious questions not defined by Holy Church in any Council.  with a certain divine power, or with his Almighty Blessing, or with utterance of words, or with repeating the same words: what so ever the pronoun (Hoc) pointeth or signifieth in the words of Consecration: what so ever your Dogs, and Mice have Eaten, or yourselves have trodden under your wicked feet: whether the Accidents do nourish, or Substance return: what narrow points so ever the schoolmen after tossing of arguments too and fro, as their manner is, have agreed or disagreed upon: the matter is subtle and curious, neither determined by definitive sentence of the Church in any Council. And therefore sith is containeth no Article of our Faith, let us not be offended with the whettinge and sharpening of their subtle wits in matters neither to the Truth of God's word prejudicial, nor to the understanding and judgement of any man, hurtful.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
touching your Nominalles, & reals, M. harding, if ye had been so cunning, & skilful, as ye make yourself, ye would not have sent us back to learn your first, and second Intentions amongst Children. But, that ye may understand your own error, and certainly see, that these two Houses, your Nominalles, and your reals have heretofore kept a stir, not only in Logic, but also in your Scholastical matters of Divinity, without further searching of the bottom thereof, I pray you only to consider these few Authorities.  
Veselus', 
Veselus.  sometime for his great fame in Learning, named Lux Mundi, writeth thus, In Nominalibus si quid Fidei contrarium putarem, hodiè remearem, vel ad Formales, vel ad Realles: If I thought there were any thing in the Nominalles contrary to the Faith, I would presently leave them, and go, either to the Formalles, or to the reals. 
Illyricus De Sectis. Pag. 80.  another saith, Ex Sententiarijs, alij Terminales, aut Nominales esse volunt: alij Reales: Of the Doctors of the Scholastical Divinity, some willbe called Terminales, or Nominales, and somme Reales. another saith, Citiùs è Labyrinthis temet explices, 
Erasm. in Moria.  quàm ex involucris Realium, Nominalium, etc. in quibus omnibus tantum est cruditionis, ut putem Apostolis ipsis opus fore alio Spiritu, si cogerentur istis de rebus cum hoc Novo Theologorum genere conserere manus: Ye may sooner wind yourself out of a Maze, than out of the shifts, and Corners of these reals, and Nominalles etc. in whom there is such abundance of Learning, y●, I think, the Apostles themselves should have need of an other Spirit, if at any time they should be driven to encounter with this New kind of Divines: Here, M. Harding, your Nominalles, and reals, are called a New kind, not of Logicians, but of Divines. 
Vdal. Zasius, De Generum obligatione.  And if ye consider well Vdalrichus Zasius, ye shall find, that your said Nominalles, & reals have intruded themselves, not only into Divinity, but also into the Civil Law. Therefore it was somewhat out of season, to tell us this tale, of your second, and first Intentions.  
Concerning apparel, ye say, ye set not great Holiness neither in shoes, nor in Sandales, etc. Whereby ye would seem to give us to understand, that ye set some Holiness in these things, although not Great. Neither doth it appear, that the Phariseis ever made any great account of Holiness of their garments. Yet notwithstanding under the colour, and shadow thereof, they deceived the people. And therefore Christ saith unto them, Woe be unto you, ye Scribes, 
Matthae. 23. Marc. 12. Luk. 20. Seneca. Macrobius.  and Phariseis: And unto the people he saith, Beware of them, that love to go in long Robes. Of such men, Seneca saith, Personam habere malunt, quàm faciem: They will rather wear a Visard, than a Natural face. another saith, Dolosi Hominis dolosae vestes: Crafty man, Crafty Coat.  
But if noman ever reckoned any Holiness to be in your apparel, wherefore then was this Decree so long ago written in the Council of Gangra, Si quis Virorum putaverit Sancto proposito, 
Obedience.  id est continentiae, convenire, ut pallio v●atur, 
Holiness in Apparel.  tanquam ex eo justitiam habiturus, etc. Anathema sit: If any man think it agreeable to his holy purpose, 
Concil. Cangren. Cap. 12. Chrysostom. in Matthae. Homil. 43.  of Continente life, to wear a Cloak, as though thereby he may be justified, etc. Accursed be he. Or, wherefore doth S. Chrysostom cry out against such folly, used, as it may appear, in his time? O impietatem: Maiorem Sanctitatem in vestimentis suis volunt ostendere, quàm in Corpore Christi etc. Vt desperans de Misericordia Dei, confidat in vest Hominis. O the wickedness hereof: They will show more holiness in their own apparel, then in the Body of Christ, etc. That he, that despaireth in God's Mercy, should put his trust in the garment of a Man.  
Or, wherefore doth Thomas of Aquine tell us so certainly, 
Thom. Aquinas.  that the wearing of Francise, or Dominic'S cowl had power to remove Sin, as well as the Sacrament of Baptism? Or, wherefore doth your Bishop, in hallowing the priests Vestiments, 
In Pontifical. In Benedic. ad Vestimenta Sacerdotal.  say thus, Vt Sacerdotes tui hac Sacra vest induti, ab omnibus impulsionibus, seu tentationibus malignorum Spirituum muniti, & defensi esse Mereantur: That thy priests wearing this Holy vesture, may deserve to be shielded, and defended from all assaults, and temptations of the wicked Spirits.  
Your doctor Durande furnisheth out your Priest at Mass in his Complete Harness, 
Durand. in Rationali, Lib. 3. Cap. 1.  a Capo a Pie. Amictus est pro Galea etc. His amice, saith he, is his Headpiece His Albe, is his Coat of Mail: His Girdle, is his Bow: His Subcingle, is his Quiver: His Stole, is his Spear: His Maniple, is his Club: His Chisible, is his Target. And in the end he saith, Haec sunt Arma, quibus Pontifex, vel Sacerdos armari debet, contra Spirituales nequitias pugnaturus: These be the Pieces, wherewith the Bishop, or Priest must be Harnessed, that will fight against the Spiritual wickedness. Thus much, I trow, he would not have said, without some opinion of special Holiness.  
To be thorte, wherefore do your Doctors keep such hot Schools amongst themselves, 
Extra De Conse. Eccle. vel Allaris. Quod in dubijs.  whether, if the Sextine happen to mend his hallowed Vestiment with a thread unhallowed, the whole Vestiment be not thereby become unhallowed? How could these so doubtful matters ever have fallen in question amongst your Fellows, if ye had been fully, and thoroughly persuaded, that there is no Holiness in your apparel? 
Lactant. Lib. 6. Cap. 25.  The ancient Father Lactantius saith, Vestes, Gemmas, & coetera, quae habentur in pretio, si quis puret Deo chara, is planè, quid Deus sit, nescit: If any man think, that Apparel, Precious Stones, or other like things, that we have in estimation, are pleasant, or delectable unto God, undoubtedly he knoweth not, what is God.  
But, ye say, what so ever your Apparel be, yet your Obedience is very Holy. The Obedience, 
In vita johannis Damasceni.  ye mean, is, to too what so ever your Abbate shall bid you do: as, to carry baskets from Palestina to Damascus: To sit Seven years together in silence, without speaking of any word: For the space of tweluemoonethes, twice every day to water a dead tree: and briefly, 
Cassand. Lib. 4 Cap. 27.  to do what so ever fond business ye be commanded: As it is written of one, that at the Commandment of his Abbate, threw out his child into the stream. This, I trow, is that Obedience, that ye commend to be so Holy.  
But S. Paul saith, 
1. Corinth. 7. Ambros. 1. Corinth. 7. isaiah. 1.  Ye are bought with price: Make not yourselves slaves unto men. And S. Ambrose saith, Scrui Hominum sunt, qui humanis se subijciunt Superstitionibus: They are the slaves of men, that make themselves subject unto men's Superstitions. God himself saith unto you, Who required these things at your Hands? 
Hieronym. ad Lustochium, De virginitate servanda.  S. Jerome saith, Viros fuge, quos videris Cathenatos: quibus foeminei, contra Apostolum, sunt crines: hircorum barba: nigrum pallium: & nudi Patientiâ frigoris pedes. Haec omnia argumenta sunt Diaboli: plea those men, that thou shalt see go in Chains: that, contrary to the Apostles commandment, wear long hear, as Weemen: 
Choice of Apparel.  that are bearded like Goats: that have upon them a black Cloak: that go barefoot, patiently bearing the cold. All these be tokens of the Devil. Alphonsus de Castro, 
Alphonsus Aduer. Haeres. Lib. 1. Cap. 7.  one of your own, saith, Paulus quidem jussit Captivare intellectum nostrum, sed in obsequium Christi, non autem in obsequium Hominum: In deed Paul bath Commanded us to submit our understanding, but unto the Obedience of Christ, not unto the Obedience of men.  
The Godly learned men, at whose persons it pleaseth you so rudely to scoff, that refuse either to go in your Apparel, or otherwise to show themselves like unto you, have age sufficient, and can answer for themselves. notwithstanding, thus much I may say in their behalf: Neither do they commend any manner of Apparel, as Holy: nor do they condemn any Apparel, as Unholy. That is your proper, and peculiar error, M. harding, to make so deep account of outward Shows.  
They know, 
Euseb. Lib. 4. Cap. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  that Eusebius saith, justinus Martyr Preached the Gospel of Christ, being appareled as an Heathen Philosopher. They know, that john the Evangelist preached God's word at Ephesus, wearing upon him the bishops Brooch, as if he had been a Bishop of the jews. S. Augustine saith, Nihil sané ad istam pertinet Civitatem, quo Habitu, vel more vivendi, si non est Contra Divina praecepta, istam Fidem, qua pervenitur ad Deum, quisque Sectetur. unde ipsos quoque Philosophos, 
Euseb. li. 3 ca 41. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Augustin. De Civita. Lib. 19 Cap. 19 Helar. in Psalmum. 67.  quando Christiani fiunt, non Habitum, vel consuetudinem victus, quae nihil impedit Religionem, sed falsa Dogmata mutare compellit: It pertaineth nothing unto this City (of God), in what kind of Apparel, or in what order of Life, so that it be not against God, any man follow this Faith, whereby we come unto God. Therefore, when Philosophers become Christians, the Church compelleth them not to change their Apparel, or manner of Living, which can nothing hinder Religion, but only she compelleth them to change their False Opinions. S. Hilary saith, Ad Ecclesiae decus detracta à Diabolo Gentium spolia dividuntur: The spoils of the Heathens, taken from the Devil, are divided to the Furniture, and ornament of the Church of God.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. Aduersus Pelagia. Lib. 1.  Episcopus, Presbyter, & Diaconus, & reliquus Ordo Ecclesiasticus in Administratione Sacrificiorum, Candida vest procedit: The Bishop, Priest, and Deo●on, and the other Ecclesiastical Company, at the Administration of the Sacrifice, come forth in white Apparel. S. Chrysostom unto the Priests, and Deacons saith thus, 
Chrysostom. in Matth. Homi. 83.  Haec est dignitas vestra, haec Corona: non quia, induti Tunicam candidissimam, per Ecclesiam ambulatis: This is your dignity: this is your Garland: not that ye walk through the Church in white Apparel.  
They say not therefore, that the Apparel is either Holy, or Unholy. But they may truly say, The same Apparel of your part hath been foully abused to filthy purposes. They may justly say, they would not gladly in any appearance show themselves like unto them, that have so untruly, and so long deceived the world. And herein they are not without sundry Authorities, and Examples of the Godly Fathers. 
August. Confess. Lib. 6. Cap. 2. Quòd Superstitioni Gentilium essent suntlima. gregor. Lib. 1. Epist. 41.  S. Augustine saith, His Mother left bringing of Wine, and Cakes to the Church, not for that it was ungodly, or unlawful of itself so to do, but only for that she was warned, It was a resemblance of the superstition of the Heathens. S. Gregory speaking of the three Sprinklinges, or Dippinges into the Holy font, saith thus, In una Fide nihil efficit Consuetudo Ecclesiae diversa. Tamen, quòd Haeretici id facerent, negant idem esse à Catholicis faciendum: The Faith being One, the diversity of Customs hurteth nothing. Yet for as much as Heretics have thus done, they say, that the Catholics may in no wise do the s●me: Not for that the thing itself was ill, but for that they would not seem to follow Heretics.  
Gabriel Biel saith, the Church of Rome thought it good, to use common Leavened Bread at the Ministration of the holy Mysteries, lest in using unleavened Bread, 
Gabriel Lectio. 38.  they should be thought to follow Ebion the Heretic. Tertullian reasoneth vehemently, 
Tertul. De Corona Militis.  that a Christian man ought not to go with a Laurel Garland upon his Head: and that for none other cause, but only for that the Heathens used so to go. Whereupon Beatus Rhenanus giveth this note: Non solùm ab his temperandum fuit, 
B. Rhenan. in Librum De Corona Militis.  quae manifestam prae se ferrent impietatem, sed etiam ab illis, quae possent indifferentia vocari, hoc est, quae essent, neque Bona, neque Mala: partim, ne quisquam infirmior ex Christianis offenderetur: partim, ne Ethnici in suis erroribus confirmarentur, dum rectius putant esse, quod etiam Christianos observare vident: It was meet for them to refrain, not only from such things, as have a manifest show of wickedness, but also from such things, as might be called indifferent, that is to say, neither Good, nor ill: partly, lest any of the weaker Christians should be offended: partly also, lest the Heathens should be encourraged in their errors, thinking that thing, for that the Christians themselves do it, to be the better. 
Tertul. De Idololatria.  Again Tertullian saith, De hoc primo consistam, An cum ipsis quoque Nationibus Communicare in huiusmodi servus Dei debeat: sive habitu, sive victu, vel quo alio genere laetitiae eorum: Herein will I first stand, whether it be lawful for the Servant of God, to Communicate with whole Nations in such things: either in Apparel, or in Diet, or in any other kind of their Mirth. And S. Basile saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Let needless, 
Basil. De Natali Christi. Origen. in Hieremi. Homil. 3.  and superfluous things be put to Silence in the Church of God. To be short, Origen saith, Quaerendum est, quid hoc sit, quod sequitur, Non fiant ei reliquiae: Ne aliqua, inquit, rescindatis Chaldaeorum, aliqua reseruetis. Ob id jubet, ne pusillum quidem relinquatur in ea: We must examine, what is meant by this, that followeth, Leave her no manner of remnant. The meaning is this, abolish not certain of the Superstitions of the Chaldees, reserving certain: Therefore he commandeth, that nothing be least in her, be it never so little. How be it, I take not upon me to enter into the Conscience of others: 
Roman. 14.  Let each man abound in his own sense.  
Yet, M. harding, for as much as ye make such a reckoning of your Antiquity, as if all your Orders, and Ceremonies had undoubtedly been conveyed over unto you from Christ himself, and his Apostles, may it therefore please you to understand, that at the beginning there appeareth no such distinction, or difference of Apparel in the ministery. Valafredus Abbas saith, Veteres Communi indumento utentes Celebrabant Missas: The old Father's said Mass (that is to say, Ministered the Holy Communion) having on their own common Apparel.  
S. Augustine in his Rule to his Clerks, 
August. In Regula Monachor. Hieronym. ad Marcellam, ut commigret Bethleem.  or Monks, writeth thus, Ne sit Notabilis habitus vester: Let not your Apparel be Notable. S. Jerome, describing the order of the Church at Bethleem, saith thus: In vest, nulla discretio: nulla admiratio: Vtcunque placuerit incedere, nec detractionis est, nec laudis: In Apparel, there is no difference: there is no woonderinge. How so ever any man list to go, it is neither slandered, nor praised. And Pope Coelestinus the first saith, Discernendi sumus à plebe, 
Coelestin. I. In Episto. ad Episcopas Gallia, Ca I.  Doctrina, non vest: Conuersatione, non Habitu: Mentis puritate, non cultu. Si enim studere incipiemus Novitati, Traditum nobis à Patribus ordinem calcabimus, ut jocum vacuum Superstitionibus faciamus. Docendi potiùs sunt rudium animi, quàm illudendi. Nec Imponendum est illorum oculis, sed Mentibus infundenda praecepta sunt: We must be known from the Lay people, by our Doctrine, not by our Coat: By our Conversation, not by our Apparel: By the pureness of our Mind, not by the attiere of our Body. For if we once begin to devise Novelties, we shall tread our Father's Orders under foot, and make room for Superstition. The minds of the ignorant aught to be taught, and not to be mocked. Neither may we go about to dosel theories: but rather aught to power wholesome Doctrine into their Hearts. To conclude, it is noted in your own Gloze upon the Clementines, 
Choice of Apparel.  Clerici Saeculares non habent certum habitum, 
Cl●● p●●●ct. Cap. 1. Gloss. vl●●ms.  cùm non fit expressum in iure de Colore, vel Forma: per quae, vel quorum alterum oportet habitum discerni: Seculare Priests have no certain Apparel appointed them, for as much as there is no express mention made, neither of the Colour, nor of the Form: by which two differences, or by the one of them, Apparel must be discerned.  
God's name be Blessed. The Religion of Christ may stand both with, and without these things. But without such props, the whole roof of your Religion must needs come down: as having nothing else, but shows, and vanities, to bear it up.  
But lest ye should conceive over great opinion of so small a matter, & think, there can be none other Apparel meet, and comely for the clergy, but only yours, or, that without the same, the whole Church of Christ must needs go to waste: may it like you therefore to remember, what the Ancient Father Origen hath written of you in this behalf: 
Origen. in Matthae. Tracta. 25.  Non solùm apud judaeos, sed etiam apud nos, multos est invenire, peccata huiusmodi peccantes, & glutientes Camelos, in eo, quòd maxima delicta committunt. Et oportet huiusmodi homines frequenter considerare, Quomodò in rebus minimis Religionem suam ostendant: Et bene eos Hypocritàs appellat: We may find, not only amongst the jews, but also amongst ourselves, men that offend in such faults, swalowinge down whole Camels, in that they Commit great offences. And we ought well to mark such manner of men, how they countenance out their Religion with small matters. Very well, and justly Christ calleth them Hypocrites.  
Posidonius, 
Posidoni. in vita August  writing the life of S. Augustine, saith thus, Vestis eius, & calceamenta, & lectualia ex moderato, & compe●enu habitu erant: nec nitida nimi●mx, nec abiecta plurimùm. Quia his plerunque vel iactare se nimiùm homines solent, vel abijcere: ex utroque non quae jesu Christi, sed quae sua sunt, quaerentes: Augustine's Apparel, shoes, and bedding were of a competent, and mean making: neither over fresh, nor over homely. For in such things men use oftentimes, either to vaunt, or to abase themselves above measure: in either side seeking their own, and not that pertaineth to jesus Christ.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Sermon. Domini in ●onte, Lib. 2.  Ex coeteris eius operibus potest conijci, utrùm hoc Contemptu superflui cultus, an Ambitione aliqua faciat. Quia & sub ovina pelle cavendos Lupos Dominus praecepit: We may gather by the rest of his works, whether he do thus (attiere himself) in contempt of Superfluous Apparel, or else for Ambition, that he ●aie be noted. For our Lord hath commanded us to beware of the Wolf, even under the sheeps skin. 
August. in eodem Libro.  Again he saith, Illum parcum habitum, ac necessarium etiam Simulatores saepius usurpant, ut incautos decipiant: That homely kind of Apparel, standing only in necessaries, Hypocrites, and dissemblers do for the more part countrefcite, to the end they may deceive men, before they beware. Thus much only by the way, lest ye should think more of your Coat, than it is worthy.  
Some say, The Body of Christ in the Sacrament is Torn, and crushed with Teeth: and some deny it. Yea forsooth, say you, and both mean right well. Thus would ye not say, M. harding, if ye know, what it were to Eat the Body of Christ.  
S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. De Coena Domini.  Est Cibus Mentis, non ventris● It is the Meat of our Mind, not of our Belly: we Eat it with the Spiritual Tooth of our Faith, not with the Material Tooth of our Body. Your very Gloze, be it never so blind, was able to see, that these words, To tear, and to Crusshe Christ's Body with your bodily Teeth, can hardly have so Catholic, and so good a meaning, as you imagine. 
De conse. Dist. 2. Ego Berenga. in Glossa.  The words thereof be these, Nisi sanè intelligas verba Berengarij, in Maiorem incides Haeresim, quàm ipse habuit. Et ideò omnia referas ad Species ips●s: unless thou discreetly understand these words of Berengarius, 
Dogs, & Miso.  
Christ's Body Torn, & Crushed with Teeth.  thou shalt fall into a greater Heresy, than he had any. Therefore these words must have relation to the forms, and not unto Christ's very Body. It followeth therefore that the Catholic Construction, that you gather hereof, must needs be this: Christ's Body is Crushed, and Torn with Teeth, that is to say, Christ's Body is not Crushed, nor Torn with Teeth. Germans' lips be not so far asunder, but ye may easily join them together by such Constructions.  
But Chrysostom saith in like wise, Dentes inserimus in Carnes Christi: We thrust our Teeth into the Flesh of Christ. O M. harding, you can not be ignorant of Chrysostom's extraordinary, 
Chrysostomus in Encaenijs.  and vehement manner of speech: and therefore ye are the more to blame, thus of purpose, and witingly to abuse your Reader. For, as Chrysostom saith, We thrust our Teeth into Christ's Flesh, So he saith likewise, Christ is slain upon the Communion Table, and his Blood is powered from his side. Likewise he saith unto a slanderer of his neighbour, 
Chrysostom. Ad Roman. Homil. 21.  Linguam tuam humano Sanguine rubefecisti: Thou haste died thy tongue red in Man's Blood. So S. Jerome saith, Detractores vivis Carnibus Saturantur: slanderers are filled with live Flesh. So saith S. Cyprian, Cruci Haeremus: 
Hierony. in jobum. Cap. 19 Cyprian. De Coena Domini.  Sanguinem sugimus: & intra ipsa Redemptoris nostri vulnera linguam figimus: We Cleave to the Cross: and suck the Blood: and we fasten our Tongues within the wounds of our Redeemer.  
These, and other like phrases commonly used in the ancient Fathers, may not be racked to the extremity of the words: but rather aught favourably to be applied to the meaning: which was, by the Material Tooth, and Tongue of the Body, to express the Spiritual, and inward eating, and sucking of the Mind. 
August. De Doctrine. Christian. Lib. 3. Cap. 16.  So S. Augustine saith, Figura ergo est, praecipiens Passioni Domini communicandum, & suaviter, atque utiliter recondendum in memoria, quòd Caro Christi Crucifixa pro nobis, & vulnerata sit: Therefore it is a Figure, or a Figurative phrase of speech: commanding us to be Partakers of Christ's Passion, and comfortably, and profitably to lay up in our Hearts, that his Flesh was Crucified, and wounded for our sakes.  
As for your Consecration, Corpus quantum, Non quantum, Non per modum quanti, Individuum Vagum, etc. which lately were the Substantiallest points of all your Doctrine, it is sufficient for you now to say, They are no Articles of your Faith. Such Grace have you, for advantage, to make your Faith more, or less, at your pleasure. touching your Dogs, and Miso, whether they Eat the very Body of Christ, or no, and that Substantially, verily, and in Deed, ye seem still to stay in doubt, as not yet being well assured of this Article of your Faith. But this is a most certain, and undoubted Article of our Faith, that no Creature can Eatè the Body of Christ, but he, that is a Member of Christ's Body. S. Augustine saith, Hoc est manducare illam escam, 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 26.  & illum potum Bibere, in Christo manner, & Christum Manentem in se habere: This is the eating of that meat, and the Drinking of that Drink: for a Man to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling within him. And therefore we say, Who so ever will hold, that a Dog, or a Mouse may Eat the very Body of Christ, and that Really, and in deed, or who so staggereth, or doubteth, whether it may be so, or no, Accursed be he.  
You say, your Contentions between your two contrary Armies, the Thomists, & the Scotistes, & other schoolmen, stand only in certain terms Metaphysical: As, utrùm Ens, & unum differant ratione, an reipsa: The Truth whereof is very agreeable to the rest of your Doctrine. For, to leave a whole world of the endless contentions that are among you, Alphonsus, one of your own Doctors, saith, 
Thomists. Scotistes.  that one of your Thomists doubted not to pronounce openly in the behouse of his Master, Quisquis à B. Thomae sententia discesserit, suspectus de Haeresi est censendus: 
Alphons. De Haeresib. Li. 1. Ca 7.  Who so ever foresaketh the judgement of Thomas of Aquine, must be taken, as suspected of Heresy. I think, ye use not to place your Heresies in Terms Metaphysical.  
Erasmus, that lived in that age, and understood of the furies of your Schools, saith thus, 
Erasmus contra Latomum.  Qui Thomam sequuntur, & à Scoto, & à Gersone dissentiunt, eos pené habent pro Haereticis: They that follow Thomas, and dissent from Duns, and Gerson, account them in a manner as good as Heretics.  
Petrus à Soto, and Catharinus, were both Learned men: both of your side: both sworn to the Pope: both present at your late Chapter at trident. Yet thus doth the one of them greet the other: 
Petrus à Soto Contra Catharinum.  Tu permanes in sensu damnato per Synodum: Thou remainest still in a sense condemned by the Council. Catharinus condemneth Cardinal Caietan for two hundred sundry errors, & some of them he calleth wicked, and Antichristian. These Terms must needs be very Metaphysical, M. harding, that can yield you such Heretical, & Antichristian errors.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 1.  
They were best therefore to go, and set peace at home rather among themselves. Of a truth, Unity, and Concord doth best become Religion: Yet is not Unity the sure & certain mark, whereby to know the Church of God. For there was the greatest Unity, that might be, amongst them, that worshipped the Golden Calf, and among them, which with one voice jointly cried against our savour jesus Christ, Crucify him. Neither, because the Corinthians were unquieted with private dissensions: or because Paul did square with Peter, or Barnabas with Paul: or because the Christians upon the very beginning of the Gospel, were at mutual discord, touching some one matter, may we therefore think, there was no Church of God amongst them. And, as for those persons, whom they upon spite call zwinglians, & Lutherans, in very deed they of both sides be Christians, good Friends, & Brethren. They vary not bitwixte themselves upon the Principles, & foundations of our Religion, nor as touching God, or Christ, or the Holy Ghost, or the means of justification, or of everlasting life, but upon one only question, which is neither weighty, nor great: neither mistrust we, or make doubt at all, but they will shortly be agreed. And if there be any of them, which have other opinion, than is meet, we doubt not, but ere it be long, they will put apart all affections, and names of parties, & that God will reveal the truth unto them: so that by better considering, and searching out of the matter, as once it came to pass in the Council of Chalcedon, all causes, and seeds of dissension shall be thoroughly plucte up by the root, and be buried, and quite forgotten for ever. Which God grant.  

M. harding.  
These Defenders be like in conditions to such honest women, as commonly we call Scolds. Because unity pleaseth you not, as being that through lack whereof your new Church is of all good men detested, and of the meanest very much suspected, ye say it is not a sure and a certain mark, whereby to know the Church of God. yes, Masters, among other notes and marks of the true Church, Unity is one. Not every Unity, but Unity in the Holy Ghost, which giveth life to that one Body the Church, whereof every faithful is a member, and Christ the Head, and pouring Charity abroad in our Hearts, so linketh all right believers together in the bond of peace, as they all say one thing, think one thing, saver one thing. The Unity, that ●s the note and mark of the true Church, whereof we speak, is that, for which the Church is called one▪ and being gathered and knit together, professeth Unity of Faith, of good will and mutual love together, and of Sacraments. The Unity of them who worshipped the Golden Calf, and with one consent against our Saviour cried, Crucifige, was far distant from the Unity, which is a note of the Church, and is the work of the Holy Ghost. Such is the Unity of the Devils, who conspire against Christ and all his with one consent. Such Unity is oftentimes in thieves: such Unity is found in you, and all your sects. For be ye never so diverse and at variance within yourselves, yet ye io●ne together in wicked amity and Unity against the Church of Christ. And therefore S. Augustine compareth you, and all such as ye be, to Samsons foxe●, that were sundered by the heads, and tied together by the tails.  
Neither say we that among them, who vary in small points, and things not pertaining to the grounds of Faith, 
1. Corin. 1. Gal. 2. Act. 15.  there is no Church. For all that certain of the Corinthians in the Primitive Church were at square, how so ever Paul told Peter that he thought good, though Barnabas and Paul agreed not about john Mark, yet were they of Christ's Church: what else? But where ye bring this for excuse of the Lutherans and the zwinglians, and other sects sprung out of them, the cause is not like pardy. For say on what ye list, and lie so long as ye list, their dissensions can not be dissembled: much less can they be accorded, etc.  
Yet lest they, whose fortune is not to see aught thereof written else where, should mistrust my report, as all do espy your lying: the words of Nicolaus Gallus your own Doctor of Luther's school, here I will rehearse: 
In Thesibus & Hypotyposibus, fol. vlt.  Non sunt leues inter nos concertationes de rebus levibus, sed de sublimibus doctrinae Christianae articulis, de lege, & evangelio, de justificatione, & bonis operibus, de Sacramentis. etc. The strifes (sateth he) that be amongst us, be not light, nor of light matters, but of the high Articles of Christian doctrine, namely of the law and of the Gospel, of justification, and of good works, of the Sacraments, etc. Here, as ye see, he reckoneth up a great many of the weightiest points of our Religion, whereof they descent among themselves. But I doubt, what I may call weighty and great, seeing these good fellows call the controversy, which is betwixt the Lutherans and the zwinglians, concerning the Body of our Saucour Christ, neither weighty nor great. But as they make a foul lie therein, so do they also in saying, they vary not betwixt themselves, but upon one only question. Of the dissension that is between the Lutherans, and Zwinglians, thus pitifully complaineth Nicolaus Amsdorffius in his Book entitled Publica confessio purae Doctrinae, himself being an earnest Lutheran: The world goeth with us worse and worse daily. All things do prognosticase the utter ruin of the Gospel, and that in place of the Gospel, we shall have nothing but mere errors, and the same very notable. (Then after a few words) now Brenttus (saith he) and the adiaphorists (they be a special sect of the Lutherans) being at the Communication or conference at Worms, would not condemn zwinglius and Osiander, because they were ●rimme men in the tongues, and well seen in Humanity. And as for us and our side, because we refused to agree unto that communication unless they were condemned, they dressed us vilely with their scoffs and railings, thrust us out of the communication, and compelled us to go away, etc. Item after a few:  
There be that say, they condemn zuinglianisme, but the preface of Brentius to Master james the minister of Goppingen his book, witnesseth far otherwise. For there they go about (a God's name) to conciliat good father Luther and Zuinglius, and make them friends one with an other. Quod planè impossibile est. Quis enim unquam audivit contradictoria posse redigi in concordiam? Which is impossible: for who ever heard, that contradictions may be accorded? (But the Masters of the Apology make no doubt at all, but they will shortly be agreed.) Such childish and impossible things they stick not to set forth, 
Unity.  who would be counted the teachers of the world, as though we were but blocks and Asses. But as for the heresies and errors of Zuinglius and Osiander, with a quiet conscience we can not embrace. Neither can we subscribe and yield to their departing away, and new guegawes, which have divided themselves from Luther. Thus far Amsdorffius, and much more there to the same purpose, which here I leave to blot the paper withal. To conclude, thus all men may plainly see, how the masters of this defence be convinced of foul lying by their own Doctors and scholefelowes, beside the thing itself, that giveth manifest evidence against them. But such stuff in their writings and preachings is not geason. Leaving others, I report me to M. jewels late sermon made at Paul's Cross on the sunday before Ascension day last, in which (if uniform report made by sundry there present be true) he abused certain Honourable, and worshipful personages, and of common people a great multitude, with lies worthy rather to be chastised by laws, then to be confuted with words. But be it as it is written, 
Apocal. 22.  Qui in sordibus est, sordescat adhuc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It pitieth me, M. harding, to see your trifling●e. If ye thought it so good skill, for advantage of your cause, to compare us to scolds, wherefore then did not you, although not through your whole Book, yet at least in this self same place, where ye so deeply charge us with scolding, refrain better from such wild speeches, as might seem to prove yourself a scold? For, I beseech you, call your words a little to remembrance: and consider indifferently, what weemen they be, that commonly use the like. Thus ye say, Even so, good Sirs: proudly, wickedly, and fondly ye object: ye show your Clerkely prows: ye brag: ye boast: Now have you told your scolding tale: Ye join in wicked amity against the Church of Christ: The founders of your Church: The Apostles of your Gospel: Ye are convinced of foul lying: All men do espy your lying: lie on so long, as ye list: He that is filthy, let him be filthy still. These be your words, M. harding, altogether in one place. If you can find so many the like in all our whole Apology, condemn us hardly, and call us Scolds.  
Unity we love, & Honour it, as the greatest comfort of Christian hearts. But if Unity be the only, and undoubted token of the Church of God, woe then be to you, and to your fellows. For by that token, agreeing so ill amongst yourselves, ye should seem to have no Church.  
But, as we have said, All they, that agree together, are not therefore evermore of the Church. 
Luk. 23. Psalm. 2.  Herode, and Pilate were made friends, and agreed together. David saith, The Kings and Princes of the earth have met, & agreed together against the Lord, and against his Christ. S. john saith of the friends, 
Apocalyp. 17.  and favourers of antichrist, Hi unum Consilium habent, & vires, ac potestatem suam tradent Bestiae: high pugnabunt cum Agno: These shall have all one Counsel (and one Mind): and shall deliver over their strength, and their power unto the Beast: and shall fight against the Lamb.  
Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in Matthae. Homil. 29.  Expedit & ipsis Daemonibus, obaudire sibi invicem in Schismate: It is good even for the Devils themselves, to be obedient one of them unto an other in their Division. Symmachus, and other like maineteiners of the Heathenish Idolatry, 
Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 30.  said, Aequum est, quicquid omnes colunt, unum putari: It is meet, that, what so ever all men worship, be counted One. And thus would they seem to hold by Unity.  
If your Unity, M. harding, be so sound, and so certain, as ye would seem to make it, why then do you condemn yourselves, one an other, of Heresy? Certainly Heresy importeth Division, and no great Unity. The whole show, and Substance of your Unity standeth in this, To give ear to yourselves, & to put Christ to silence. But the true, and Christian unity is this, That the whole Flock of Christ, 
john. 10.  hear the voice of the only shepherd, and follow him. The band of Unity, is simple Verity: Which, M. harding, for as much as ye have forsaken, ye have no great cause to talk much of Unity.  
As for sampson's Foxetailes, it seemeth, ye lacked somewhat, to play withal. Otherwise they serve you here to no great purpose. For if there be any dissension amongst us, it is not in any Article of the Faith, but only in some particular point of learning: The like whereof hath been between S. Augustine, and S. Jerome, and others the Learned, Godly, and Catholic Fathers of the Church. And thus, contrary to sampson's Foxes, notwithstanding one, or other have been divided in some certain Conclusion, as it were in the tails, yet we join thoroughly all together in one Head, in one Gospel, in one way of Salvation, and in one sum of Religion: and all together with one Mouth, and one Spirit glorify God, the Father of our Lord jesus Christ.  
Concerning the disagreement, that is between the Lutherans, & the zwinglians, touching the Being of the Body of Christ in one only place, or in many, we say, that in respect either of Salvation, or of other Article, of God the Father, or of the Son, or of the Holy Ghost, or of any other the Grounds, & Principles of the Christian Faith, it is not weighty. In that respect we speak it only. Otherwise we say, the error is weighty. Such errors in sundry the ancient Fathers have been dissembled, and passed in silence. S. Hilary seemeth to say, 
Hilar. De Trinita. Lib. 10 Hominis habitus est: Origo non Hominis.  that Christ received not Flesh of the Blessed Virgin: And, that the same Flesh of Christ was impassable, and could feel no grief.  
Origen saith, Quidam putant, Christum in Futuro Saeculo iterum pati oportere, etc. Some men think, that in the world to come Christ must suffer in his Body, or be Crucified again. 
Naturam non habens ad dole●dum.  Brentius seemeth to hold, that Christ's Body is infinite, and in all places, as is the godhead: which error, it seemeth, was defended by some in S. Augustine's time. And therefore he saith, Cavendum est, 
Origen. ad Roman. Ca 6. Li. 5. Brentius.  ne ita Divinitatem astruamus Hominis, ut Veritatem Corporis auferamus: We must take heed, we do not so maintain y● Divine Nature of Christ being man, that we take away the Truth of his Body. These errors, notwithstanding they were great in themselves, yet in respect of other greater errors, have been dissembled. 
Augustin. Epist. 57 Ad Dardan. jacob. Andreae De Authori●a. Scripturae, Pag. 178.  And therefore jacobus Andreas, all be it he could not be ignorant of this dissension, being himself a party, yet he saith, Qu●d vociferantur, nostros de summa evangelii nondum consentire, mendacium est: Whereas they cry out, that we cannot agree among ourselves, about the Substance of the Gospel, it is a very great Untruth.  
But you say, The Masters of the Apology tell us, They doubt not, but these parties willbe reconciled. And yet Nicolaus Amsdorfius (with whose words ye are ashamed to blot your paper) taketh the matter to be impossible. And here, ye think, ye have driven us near the wall, specially finding us so far disagreeing in judgement from a doctor, as you call him, of our own.  
But▪ M. harding, ye might better have considered, that Amsdorfius, and we speak of sundry matters, and therefore our sayings may well stand together.  
Amsdorfius saith, the Doctrine, and Term's standing still, as they do, it is not possible by any manner of Construction, to make the parties agree. But our trust in God is, that they, that are deceived, shall find their own error, and alter their Terms, and correct their judgements, and submit themselves unto the Truth, and so join together all in one.  
So S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin in Secunda Disputatione contra Fortunatum.  Recte dicitur, Glacialem nivem calidam esse non posse. Nullo enim pacto, quàm diu nix est, calida esse potest: It is well said, snow frorne, ●r congcled, can never be hot. For as long, as it is snow, it is not possible to make it hot.  
So likewise he saith of the Heretics named the Manichees: 
Lutherans zwinglians.  Sic delirant Manichaei: sed resipiscant, & non sint Manichaei: Thus fond are the Manichees: 
August. Contra Faustum. Lib. 24. Cap. 2.  But let them amend their errors, and no more be Manichees.  
What is there so contrary in judgement, as a jew, and a Christian? Yet God hath promised, that he will turn the hearts of the Fathers (the jews) unto their Children: 
Malach 4.  and the hearts of the Children (the Christians) unto their Fathers. And S. Paul saith, 
Roman. 11.  judaei, si non permanserint in incredulitate, inserentur. Potens enim est Deus iterum inserere eos: The Jews shallbe graffed into the Tree, if they abide not in Unbelief. For God is able to graff them in again. What is there so contrary, as Light, 
Psalm. 17.  and Darkness? Yet the Prophet saith, Illumina tenebras meas: O Lord, sighten thou my darkness. To conclude, what is so contrary, as the Kingdom of the Pope, and the Kingdom of Christ? And yet, we trust, it is not impossible, but the Pope himself may once turn to God, & confess his errors, and profess the Gospel of Christ, that he now oppresseth.  
These things considered, M. harding, it was no deadly Sin, to say, we trust, that these matters of variance between the Lutherans, and the zwinglians, will once be accorded: and that all causes, and seeds of dissension shallbe thoroughly pulled up by the roots, and be buried, and quite forgotten for ever. This change God hath already begun to work, not only in sundry learned men, but also in great Cities, in good Universities, and in whole Countries. Therefore, we trust, our hope is not in Vain.  
As for the Lies, which, it liketh you well to say, M. jewel made openly at Paul's Cross, I doubt not of your modesty, but ye would have blazed them better, if ye had thought them worth your colours. Such general, and so great exclamations, upon so simple reports, stand not always with greatest wisdom. He is to rash to be a judge, that pronounceth before he know the cause. What I said there, for as much as ye touch nothing in particular, it is peerless to make rehearsal. But well I remember, I might truly have said, M. harding commonly Misallegeth, misreporteth, misconstrueth, corrupteth, wreasteth, and Falsifieth the ancient Counsels, and Holy Fathers. I could have said, M. harding is oftentimes directly contrary to himself. I could have said, M. harding in one Book hath uttered two hundred five and fifty great Untruths. These, M. harding, your Conscience knoweth, had been no Lies: and therefore not meet to be chastifed by an Laws.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 1. & 2.  
But this is the heaviest, and most grievous part of their slanders, that they call us wicked and ungodly men, and say we have thrown away all care of Religion. Though this ought not to trouble us much, whiles they themselves that thus have charged us, know full well, how spiteful, and untrue their slander is. justine the Martyr is a witness, that all Christians were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is Godless, as soon as the Gospel first began to be published, and the name of Christ to be openly declared. And, when Polycarpus stood to be judged, the people stirred up the Precedent to slay, & murder all them, which professed the Gospel, with these words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, That is to say, Rid out of the way these wicked and Godless creatures. And this was, not because it was true, that the Christians were Godless in deed, but because they would not worship stones and stocks, which were then honoured as God. The whole world seeth plainly enough already, what we and ours have endured at these men's hands for Religion, and our only Gods cause. They have thrown us into Prison, into Water, into Fire, and have imbrued themselves in our blood: not because we were either adulterers, or Robbers, or Murderers, but only for that we confessed the Gospel of jesus Christ, and put our confidence in the living God: And for that we complained too justly, and truly (Lord thou knowest) that they did break the Law of God for their own most vain Traditions: And that our adversaries were the very foes to the Gospel, and enemies to Christ's Cross, so witingly, and willingly, and obstinately despising God's Commandments.  
Wherefore, when these men saw they could not rightly find fault with our Doctrine, they would needs pike a quarrel, and inveigh and rail against our manners, surmising, that we do condemn all well doings: that we settte open the door to all licentiousness and lust, and lead away the people from all love of virtue. And in very deed, the life of all men, even of the devoutest, and most Christian, both is, and evermore hath been such, as one may always find some lack, even in the very best, and purest conversation. And such is the inclination of all creatures unto evil, and the readiness of all men to suspect, that the things, which neither have been done, nor once were meant to be done, yet may be easily both heard, and credited to be true. And like as a small spot is soon espied in the neatest, and whitest garment, even so the least stain of dishonesty is easily found out in the purest, and sincerest life. Neither take we all them, which have at this day embraced the Doctrine of the Gospel, to be Angels, and to live clearly without any more, or wrinkle: nor yet think we these men neither so blind, that if any thing may be noted in us, they are not able to perceive the same, even through the least crevie: nor so friendly, that they will construe aught to the best: nor yet so honest of nature, or courteous, that they will look back upon themselves, & weigh our lives by their own. If so be we list to search this matter from the bottom, we know, that in the very Apostles times there were Christians, through whom the name of the Lord was blasphemed, and evil spoken of among the Gentiles. Constantius the Emperor bewaileth, as it is written in Sozomenus, that many waxed worse after they had fallen to the Religion of Christ. And Cyprian in a lamentable oration setteth out the corrupt manners of his time: The wholesome Discipline, saith he, which the Apostles left unto us, hath idleness, and long rest now utterly marred: every one studied to increase his liuelyhode: And clean forgeatinge, either what they had done before, whiles they were under the Apostles, or what they ought continually to do having received the Faith: they earnestly laboured to make great their own wealth with an unsatiable desire of covetousness. There is no devout Religion, saith he, in Priests, no sound Faith in Ministers, no charity showed in good works, no form of Godliness in their conditions: men are become effeminate, and weemens' beauty is countrefeited. And, without reciting of many more writers, Gregory Nazianzene speaketh thus of the pitiful state of his own time: We, saith he, are in hatred among the Heathen for our own vices sake, we are also become now a wonder, not only to Angels, and men, but even to all the ungodly. In this case was the Church of God, when the Gospel first began to shine, and when the fury of tyrants was not as yet cooled, nor the sword taken of from the Christians necks. Surely it is no new thing, that men be but men, although they be called by the name of Christians.  

M. harding.  
Lo, a grievous, and a heavy case, that the world calleth you wicked, and ungodly men. Twis they be to blame for it. And so be they, that call them thieves, which come to be promoted to Tyburn. ●●r, God knoweth, little have you deserved so to be called, etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
All this, with the rest, is only Hicke Scorners eloquence, not worthy of answer.    
Here endeth the third part.   

The Fourth part.  

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 1.  
- BUT will these men, I pray you, think nothing at all of themselves, whiles they accuse us so maliciously? And having leisure to behold so far of, & to see, what is done both in Germany, and in England, have they either forgotten, or can they not see, what is done at Rome? Or will they accuse us, their own life being such, as no man is able to make mention thereof but with shame? Our purpose here is, not to take in hand at this present, to bring to light, and open to the world those things, which were meet rather to be hid and buried with the workers of them. It beseemeth neither our Religion, nor our modesty, nor our shamefastness. But yet he, which giveth commandment, that he should be called the Vicar of Christ, and the Head of the Church, who also heareth, that such things be done in Rome, who seeth them, who suffereth them, (for we will go no further) may easily consider with himself, what manner of things they be. Let him in God's Name call to mind, and let him remember, that they be of his own canonists, which have taught the people, that Fornication between single folk is no sin: (as though they had fet that Doctrine from Mitio in Terence) whose words be: It is no sin (believe me) for a young man to haunt harlots. Let him remember, they be of his own, which have decreed, that a Priest ought not to be put out of his cure for Fornication. Let him remember also, how Cardinal Campegius, Albertus Pighius, and others many more of his own have taught, that the Priest, which keepeth a Concubine, doth live more holily, and chastely, than he, which hath a wife in Matrimony. I trust, he hath not yet forgotten, that there be many thousands of common harlots in Rome: and that he himself doth gather yearly of the same harlots about thirty thousand Ducats, by the way of an annual pension. Neither can he foregeate, that he himself doth maintain openly brothel houses, and by a most filthy lucre doth filthily and lewdly serve his own lust. Were all things then pure, and holy in Rome, when Johan a Woman, rather of perfit age, then of perfit life, was Pope there, and bore herself as the Head of the Church: And after that, for two whole years, in that holy See she had played the naughty pack, at last going in Procession about the City, in the sight of all her Cardinals, and Bishops fell in travail openly in the streets?  

M. harding.  
first who seeth not 
* By the answer it will appear, that this Lie is plain Truth.  what a notorious lie they make in the preface and entry to the matter? Say they not, they take not upon them, at this time to bring to light and to the show of the world those doings, which ought rather together with the auctors of them to be buried? And that so to do, their Religion, their shamefastness, their blushing doth not bear it? What is a lie, if this be not? Do they not in deed, that they deny in word? Yea, say they not that thing, which they affirm they say not?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I doubt not, good Reader, but perusing these few following, thou shalt plainly see, that the Authors of this Apology spoke not all, that they might well have spoken. But, if thou happen to read Dantes, Petrarcha, Boccase, Mantuan, Valla, and others like, thou wilt certainly say, that even now, being thus challenged, and called forth, and required to speak, yet we have rather geeven an inkling hereof, then opened the particular secrets of the matter. For thereof S. 
Bernard ad Clerum in Synodo Rhemen. Po●em loco. Fran. Petrar. Epist. 20.  bernard saith thus, Quae in occulto fiunt ab Episcopis, turpe est vel dicere: It is shame to utter the things, that Bishops do in their secrets. And therefore he saith further, even as did the writer of the Apology, Melius itaque arbitror super hoc dissimulate: touching such matters, I think it better to dissemble. Franciscus Petrarcha calleth Rome the Whore of Babylon, the Mother of all Idolatry, and Fornication: 
Fran. Petrar. Cantilena 92. Onde jugita ogni vergogno. Baptij. Mantuanus.  and saith, that all shame, and reverence is quite departed thence. Baptista Mantuanus saith:  

Vivere qui Sanctè cupitis, discedite Roma:  
Omnia cùm liceant, non licet esse bonum.   
Al ye, that would live godly, be packing from Rome. For there all things else are lawful: but to be good, it is not lawful. And again, as it is alleged once before,  

Sanctus ager scurris, venerabilis Ara Cynaedis  
Seruit, honorandae Diuûm Ganymedibus Aedes.   
Hereby, M. harding, ye may easily see, that we of purpose dissembled, and covered your shame, and spoke much less, and far otherwise of you, than we might have spoken.  
Erasmus, writing of S. Augustine's dealing against the Manichees, saith thus, Obscoena Mysteria Manichaeorum protraxit in lucem. Nam haec prodidisse, erat vicisse: 
Erasmus in vita Augustini.  He opened, and published the filthy Mysteries of the Manichees. For the very opening thereof was sufficient to overthrow them. But happy are they, that live in such sort, that no man may well reveal their life without blushing.  
Here, M. harding, ye charge us pleintiefully with Fables, and slanders, and heaps of Lies, great, fowl, lewd, and shameful, in one company, all together. Wherein it was no great Mastery for you to be so liberal: for that hereof ye want no store.  
But if we shallbe able clearly, and plainly to anouche, and justify each thing, that we have spoken, than we doubt not, but ye will take all these Lies home again, and bestow them freely amongst your fellows.   

M. harding.  
They be the Popes canonists (say they) that have taught the people, 
Crimes laid to the Pope's charge by the Defenders.  that simple fornication is no sin. A grievous offence, and worthy to be punished. And verily if any Pope ever knew, that his learned men in the Canon law have taught the people such heathenish, and devilish Doctrine, 
* Untruth. For the canonists themselves confess, that the Council may judge, and depose the Pope.  though no man in Earth be his judge, yet he may be thought unworthy the room of so great charge. But if the Pope never knew such Doctrine preached by the canonists, and if at no time there have been any such, then is he clear, and ye are proved slanderers, and false backbiters. We deny it utterly. How prove ye it? Marry Sir, say ye, look in the margin of our Apology, and there shall ye find one john de Magistris, noted for an offender in that behalf. Well, if it were so, he was but one man. Ye speak of canonists, which word signifieth a number. And how prove ye that he the said john de Magistris (for now I will spare you, and will not say they) taught the people that simple fornication was no sin? etc.  
Now we tell you, 
joannes de Magistris blamed by the Defenders, for Martinus de Magistris  that we cannot find, where ever johannes de Magistris wrote so impiously, as ye report. Is it not Martinus de Magistris, that ye mean? It is a great rashness, if ye have not read it yourselves, to believe such 
‡ This Peltinge writer is Alphonsus de Castro, one of M. hardings greatiest Doctoures.  pelting writers, that be of your sects, as ye do, by whom ye seem to be most shamefully and most dangerously deceived. etc. What will be thought and said of you, if we show plainly, that ye have forged a fowl lie, and a most false slander upon Martinus de Magistris? For so will we call him, until ye prove it of johannes.  
This Martinus de Magistris was no canonist, 
A foul slanderous lie made by the Defenders.  as ye say, but a Doctor of divinity, well learned for his time and order of study, as a schoolman. In a treatise, that he made, De temperantia & de luxuria, he disputeth after such manner, as the scholastical doctors commonly use. Wherefore he that saith that he taught the people, sought by untruth, how to make the matter more detestable. 
* He that teacheth ain Schools, is a Teacher of Teachers.  For disputing in Schools, and teaching the people, be far asunder. saith this doctor Martin after the guise of Schools, Quaeritur utrum simplex fornicatio sit Peccatum mortale, that to say, It is a question, whether simple fornication be mortal sin. 
‡ Note by the way, that by M. hardings secret conclusion, Fornication is not a Mortal, but a Venial sin.  This Defender knew, what he did, when he left out the word mortal. For being disposed to lie, he thought best, to lie for a vantage. 
The manner of the School Doctors.  Now this is to be understanded, how the manner of the scholastical Doctors is, first to propound a question: next to argue, object, and reason against the Truth of the question: Then to avouch and prove the Truth: After that to soil the objections brought against the Truth: Lastly to bring conclusions for confirmation of the Truth. Then in prosecuting his question, arguitur quòd non, I reason against it, saith he, and argue it is not so. And there after the School manner, he maketh an argument against the Truth. Which argument who so ever taketh for his purpose, and alloweth it, admitteth that the Doctor goeth against and disproveth. After this he cometh to prove the Truth. 
Martinus de Magistris cleared of the crime by the Defenders objected.  And there it followeth. In oppositum. simplex fornicatio excludit, etc. To the contrary (saith he) Simple fornication excludeth from the Kingdom of God, Ergo, it is mortal sin. Then he saith further. It is to be noted, that the 
* Ergo, by likelihood the opinion of others was otherwise.  opinion of Thomas is, that simple fornication undoubtedly is mortal sin. Who so ever readeth further in Martinus, he shall find, after he hath well disputed pro and con, as they term it in Schools, that is to say, for, and against the Truth, that he putteth six conclusions, of which the fourth beginneth thus, ideo, etc. Therefore Simple fornication is mortal sin, because it is forbidden by God's Law, etc. And in the end of the sixth, he saith: Hereof the falsehood of their opinion is made evident, who say that simple fornication is not mortal sin. Which opinion is condemned in the articles of them of Paris, errore. CLXXXVI. Then he saith further. Guido the Carmelite saith in a Chapter contra Errores Graecorum, that the Error of the Greeks, saying simple fornication between a single man and a single woman not to be mortal sin, openly containeth Heresy against the Holy Scripture, and that he proveth by four reasons, etc.  
By this, and much more there expressed, it is sufficiently proved, that Martinus de Magistris in his scholastical disputations in the said treatise, 
For trial of this Conclusion, see the answer.  saith not that simple fornication is no sin: much less can it be reasonably, or with any colour of honesty said, that so he taught the people. And therefore it is falsely and slanderously imputed unto him.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here ye say, 
Simple Fornication.  We lie: we backbite: we slander, etc. For answer whereunto, first we say, It is no new device, to make light and simple account of your Simple Fornication. 
Epiphan. Lib. 3. Haeresi. 56.  For Aëtius the old Heretic used thus to say, Dormire cum muliere extra Coniungium, non magis est peccatum, quàm aurem scalpere: To have the company of a Wooman out of Marriage, is no more a sin, than it is for a man to claw his care. 
Clemens Stromat. Lib. 3.  Likewise the Heretic Prodicus said, Licet palàm, & apertè Fornicari: It is lawful to commit open Fornication. Likewise not long sithence wrote Laurentius Valla, in earnest, or in game, I cannot tell: but thus he wrote: and he wrote it in Rome, 
Laurent. Valla, De Voluptate, Lib. 1. Cap. 38. Richar. de Sancto Victore, Par. 2. Fol. 73.  being himself one of the Canons there: Omninò nihil interest, utrùm cum Marito coeat Mulier, an cum Amatore: Undoubtedly there is no difference, whether a Wooman keep company with her Husband, or with her Lover. Richardus de Sancto Victore saith, Paulus praevidebat, multos fore, qui Fornicationis malum non adeò damnabile putarent: S. Paul foresaw, there should be many, that would think, the ill of Fornication not to be so damnable a matter. To like purpose Socrates writeth of the corrupt judgement of sundry of his time: 
Socrat. li. 5. ca 22  Scortationem indifferentem esse putant: De Festis verò diebus, perinde atque pro animabus suis dimicant, invertentes Mandata Dei, etc. They take Fornication, or whoredom to be a thing indifferent, (that is to say, neither good, nor ill, but left at liberty): But they fight for the keeping of their Holidays, as for their souls. From these Fathers, as it appeareth, issued out the Pope, and his Roman clergy: who have learned so readily to swallow a Camel, and so nicely, and solemnly to strain a gnat.  
But, ye will say, all this hitherto pertaineth nothing unto the canonists, specially in the plural number.  
Let us therefore see the practice of the Church of Rome: which is the Life, and soul of all the canonists. 
Dist. 34. Is qui.  Thus therefore it is noted in the Decrees, Qui non habet Vxorem, 
Parisijs, an. 1505.  loco illius Concubinam debet habere: He that hath not a Wife, in steed of her must have a Concubine. Ye will say, there is error in the print. Be it so. Yet thus is it extant in many Copies, and it is well agreeable to your common practice. 
Concil. Toletan. 1. Cap. 17.  For the best, that you can make of the same place, is this: Is qui non habet Vxorem, & pro Vxore Concubinam habet, à Communione non repellatur: He that hath no Wife, and in steed of a Wife hath a Concubine, let him not be removed from the Communion.  
Likewise it is noted in the Gloze upon the Constitutions of Otho Bonus: 
Constit. Othonis Boni de Concubinis Clericor. removendis. Licet ad profagandun. In Glossa. In eadem Glossa. Extra. De Immunit a. Ecclesia. Petr. Ravennas.  Videtur quòd Crimen Meretricij Ecclesia sub dissimulatione transire debeat: It seemeth, that the Church ought to pass over the Crime of whoredom under dissimulation (and not to see it). In which Gloze, ye shall find these words, Si non castè, tamen cautè: If ye do it not chastely, yet do it charily. Likewise saith Petrus Ravennâs, one of your notable canonists, upon the decretals: Quamuis tactus, & oscula sint praeludia incontinentiae in Laicis, secùs tamen est in Clericis. Nam Clericus praesumitur ista facere pro charitate, & bono zelo: Notwithstanding, handling, and kissing in Lay Personnes be the occasions, or beginnings of incontinente behaviour, yet in Priests it is far otherwise. For a Priest is presumed to do these things of charity, and of good Zele.  
Likewise it is noted in your Gloze, 
11 quae. 3. Absit. In Glossa.  Si Clericus amplectitur Mulierem, (Laicus) interpretabitur, quòd causa benedicendi eam hoc faciat: If a Priest embrace a Wooman, a Lay man must judge of it thus, that he doth it to th'intent to bless her. Where also ye shall find this special note set out in the margin for the purpose, Clericus amplectens Mulierem praesumitur bene agere: 
Ibidem, In Margin.  A Priest embracing a Woman is presumed to do well.  
These be your canonists: 
Simple Fornication.  these be your Schoolmasters: these be your Doctoures, M. harding: thus they writ, not only in the Singular, but also in the Dual, and Plural number. They would never so lightly have judged hereof, if they had thought, your Simple Fornication had been sin.  
S. 
Augustin. in En. chiridio ad Lauren. ca 80.  Augustine saith, Clamour Sodomorum, & Gomorrhaeorum multiplicatus est: Quia non solùm iam apud eos non punicbantur illa flagitia, verùm etiam publicè, velut lege, frequentabantur: The Cry of Sodom, and Gomorrha is multiplied: For that such vices then, not only were not punished, but also were openly used, as it had been by the aid, and Authority of the Law.  
somewhat it must needs be, 
Concil. Basil. Session. 20. Erasmus in Enchirid. mili. christiani, Ca 14.  that in your Late Council of Basile, enforced the Bishops there to Decree, that Fornication should be sin. Erasmus, a man of Singular Learning, and judgement saith, 
* He meaneth some of the best of the Roman clergy. jacobus de Valentia in Psal. 118. Antoninus in Sum. par. 4. titu. 12. ca 2. §. 3. Alexander Halensis, par. 3. quae. 35. Mem. 5. Ambrose. 1. Timoth. 4. Augusti. in quae. in Exod. quae. 20.  Bona pars eorum, quos vulgus integros, & incorruptos appellat, Simplicem Fornicationem, & moderatum voluptatis usum, ut leave commissum, neutiquam refugiunt: * A great many of them, whom the common sort taketh for good, and godly men, not a white abhor Simple Fornication, and a sober use of pleasure, reckoning it to be but a little petite fault. So saith jacobus De Valentia, Tam judaei, quàm Saraceni, & mali Christiani, ut detestabilem vitam suam excusent, & defendant, asserunt, Fornicationem Simplicem esse licitam: As well Jew's, and Saracenes, as also ill Christian men, to the intent to excuse, and defend their wicked life, say, that Simple Fornication may be Lawfully used.  
So saith Antoninus the archbishop of Florence, Confutatur error dicentium, Simplicem Fornicationem non esse peccatum: Hereby is reproved the error of them, that say, Simple Fornication is no sin. Alexander of Hales, by way of disputation doubtethe not to allege the words of S. Ambrose, to this purpose: Etiàmsi aliquis lubricum carnis patiatur, sine dubio vapulabit: sed non peribit: If a man suffer the Frailty of the Flesh, without doubt he shallbe punished: but perish he shall not: And likewise these of S. Augustine, Illa Fornicatio, quam faciunt, qui Vxores non habent, cum foeminis, quae viros non habent, an prohibita inveniri possit, ignoro: That kind of Fornication, which Single men commit with Single Women, whether it be forbidden, or no, I cannot tell.  
Thus have you, M. harding, not only what your canonists, but also what your School Doctoures have taught, and thought of Simple Fornication.  
But there is noted in the Margin of the Apology, johannes de Magistris, in steed of Martinus. 
M. Har. pag. 46. ae Read the B. of Winchester unto M. Fecknam. Pag. 121.  And hereof have ye made yourself a pleasant Conquest. We read not these Books ourselves: we believe such pelting writers of our sects: we are shamefully, and daungerousely deceived. How be it, M. harding, I require but your Indifferent judgement: Speak uprightly. Wherefore is it more dradely sin for us, to name johannes, in steed of Martinus, than it was for you in this self same Book, 
vint. con. cantur. li. 3. de Euchar  to name Captain joshua, in steed of the Prophet Osee. Or, for one of your Brethren, to allege Hosius, for Athanasius? Or, for D. Srevin Gardiner, in stead of Theophylactus, to allege Theophilus? Cicero allegeth Ajax in steed of Hector: 
M. Har. pag. 93. Chrysostom ad Romanos. 1. Chrysost ad Gala. 4.  Agamemnon, in steed of Ulysses: Eupolis, in stead of Aristophanes. Aristotle allegeth Calypso, in steed of Circe. Your Gratian allegeth Aniceus, for Anicetus: Ambrose, for Augustinus: & by your own Confession, Calixtus, for Anacletus. S. Chrysostom nameth Abacuk, for Sophonias: and Agar, in steed of Sara. S. Mark allegeth Abiathar, for Abimelech. S. Matthew nameth Hieremias, 
Hieronym. in Marcum, ca 2. Matthae 27. De Rescriptis, significant. Abb.  for Zacharias.  
It had been no great prejudice unto your cause, to have dissembled so small a matter, specially finding yourself so often guilty in the same. Your own Doctors say, Error in Nomine non habet vitiare, modò constet de Corpore: Error in name marreth not the matter, so the Body, or party be known.  
But this same Martinus, 
Simple Fornication.  ye say, never denied Fornication to be deadly Sin: but by express words affirmeth the contrary. For trial hereof, it may please you to give some credit to Alphonsus dè Castro your own doctor. 
Alphonsus Contrae Haeres. Li. 5. Coltus.  His words be these, Graeci, ut Guido illis impingit, dicunt, Simplicem Fornicationem non esse peccatum. Martinus de Magistris in suo libro, De Temperantia, quaestione secunda de Luxuria, dicit, se fateri, Fornicationem Simplicem esse Peccatum Mortal. Tamen dicit insuper, quòd oppositum credere, non sit Haereticum: quia, ut dicit, Testimonia Scripturae Sacrae non sunt expressa: The Greeks, as Guido chargeth them, say, that Simple Fornication is no sin. Martinus de Magistris in his Book, Of Temperance, and in the second question, disputing of Lechery, granteth in deed, that Simple Fornication is deadly sin. And yet he saith, It is no Heresy to believe the contrary: for that, as he saith, the Testimonies of the Scriptures (touching this matter) are not plain. Here, M. harding, ye have your own Doctors mind. Martinus saith, It is no Heresy, to believe, that Simple Fornication is no Sin: And this he saith even in the very same Book that he hath written, De Temperantia. So dangerously, M. harding, and so shamefully are we deceived, in alleging your Peltinge Doctors.  
And therefore Alphonsus concludeth thus, Sed cum pace illius dixerim, ego credo, Martinum, alioqui virum Doctum, in hac part errasse: But, to speak with his favour, I believe, that Martinus de Magistris in this behalf was much deceived.   

M. harding.  
After this fowl lie followeth an 
* Untruth. For this he will soon be found a Truth.  other. Let him remember (say these Defenders) that they be his men that have decreed, that a priest for fornication ought not to be removed from his cure. To this we may say, that although he be not deprived of his cure, yet he may be punished other wise. But let us see, how they would prove that they say. 
‡ Who bestowed these quotations in the Margin, I cannot tell. But the lawns are plain: as it shall appear.  By their note in their margin they send us for proof to the canon law. 3. quaest. 7. Lata. Extra de bigamis. Quia circa. As touching the chapter Lata, in the decrees we find none such And, in Causa. 3. quast. 7. there is nothing to this purpose. The paragraphe Quia circa. Extra. is understanded of them, who being in the state of bigamy, are not to be promoted to holy orders, and not of one who is already made priest, that he be not for Fornication removed. But, to understand, what was done to a priest, that had committed fornication, by order of law. 
* This was in old times Now it is quite forgotten.  in case any Bishop, or priest, or deacon, after degree of deaconship taken, had been convict of fornication, or aducutrie, he was deposed, and castout of the Church, and enjoined to do penance among the lartie. Which thing S. Sylvester at length mercifully changed, enjoininge 
† An hypocritical folly. For he may redeem all this whole ten years fast, by pa●einge of a penny Read the Answer.  ten years penance after a prescript form, which to our new clergy would seem very hard, and strait.  
Yea further the law of the Church in this case so little beareth with the sinful life of Clerks, that, 
‡ Untruth manifest, and a Canon of M. hardings own making.  if any Bishop in his Diocese had consented and borne with the fornication of Priests, or Deacons, or with the crime of incest, for money, or prayer, or had not by Authority of his Bishoply Office duly punished such faults committed: the same should be suspended from his Office. And this much we have showed touching the removing of a Priest, not only from his benefice, but also from his office, for cause of fornication: wherein these men most falsely have slandered the Church, as now to any man it may 
* Fall clearly, God wot. See the Answer. Dis. 82. Presbyter.  appear.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, ye show yourself to be much unskilful in your own Canons. The simplest Proctor in your Courts could soon have told you, that ye are over far deceived. For thus it is written by express words in your own Gloze upon the Decrees: Dicunt, neminem hodiè propter Fornicationem esse deponendum, nisi in ea perdurat: They say, that for Fornication, noman ought this day to be deposed, 
Not deposed for Fornication.  unless he continue in the same. And, lest ye should in any wise mistrust, or doubt your Gloze, it is also thus noted of purpose in fair great letters in the Margin, Fornicationis causa hodiè nemo est deponendus: Now a days noman may be deposed for Fornication. Were there nothing else to be said, yet this thing only were sufficient.  
But Panormitane also your greatest canonist like wise saith, 
Extra. de sanguinita. & affinita. Non debet. Abb. Dist. 81 Maximianus Clos.  Ad varietatem temporum debent mutari statuta humana: Ideò hody ex Simplici Fornicatione Clericus non deponitur: The Laws of men ought to be altered according to the change of times: And therefore now a days for Simple Fornication no Priest is deposed from his benefice. Likewise ye have it noted upon your Decrees, Communiter dicitur, quod pro Simplici Fornicatione Clericus deponi non debet: Quia pauci sine illo vitio inveniuntur: It is commonly said, that for Simple Fornication no Priest ought to be deprived: For that few Priests are found without that fault.  
Again Panormitane saith to like effect, 
Extra. De Cohabita. clericor. & Mulier. Si autem. Abb.  Clericus Concubinarius in officijs vitandus non est, nisi sit notorious: A Priest, that keepeth a Concubine, unless he be notorious, may not be refused in his Service.  
Sundry other such like Authorities your poorest Proctoure could have brought you.  
How be it, you say, S. Sylvester in such cases enjoineth ten years penance. This was true in deed, M. harding. But it was true in Old forne years, about twelve hundred years ago. Now Sylvester is passed quite out of mind, and his Law with him. Your own folk now can say, Nunc aliud tempus, alij pro tempore mores.  
Martinus Poenitentiarius saith, 
Martinus Poeniten. in Dictionario.  Ecclesia multos huiusmodi Canones exufflavit: quia onerosi sunt: The Church hath blown away many such Canons, for that they be too burdenous. Look better on your Books, M. harding. Your own Law saith, Fornicationis causa nemo hodiè deponendus est: Quia corpora hodiè sunt fragiliora: 
Di. 82. Prebyter. In Glossa.  Noman now a days ought to be deprived for Fornication: and that, because our bodies are frailer, than they were wont to be. And therefore, touching that cruel ten years Fast, appointed by Syluesters Constitution, the Gloze there saith thus, Potest ieiunare per alium: vel, potest dare numum pro jeiunio: He may Paste by some other man: or else, He mai give a good Penny, and so redeem his whole ten years Fast. But there is graciously added a special proviso In the behalf of him, that shall receive this Penny: Sed debet iste Donarius esse talis, quòd non evincatur ab illo, cui donatur. Alias non contingeret liberatio: But it must be such a Penny, that it be never evicted again by Law from him, that received it. Otherwise he should not be discharged of his penance.  
In like manner saith Pope Pelagius, Defectus nostri temporis, quibus corpora ipsa hominum defecerunt, 
Dis. 34. Fraternitatis.  districtionis illius non patitur manner censuram: The weakness of our time, by mean whereof the very bodies of men are decayed, doth not suffer the rigour of that Law to continue.  
Otho Bonus in his Constitution Legantine saith, 
De Concubinis Clericor. removendis. Licet ad profugandum.  Removeant ipsas intra Mensem: vel ipsas, vel alias de coetero nullatenus detenturi: Let Priests put away their Concubines within a Months iespite: afterward to hold neither them, nor any others in any wise. Whereupon the Gloze, with great conscience, and full discreetly, saith thus, Detenturi, scilicet, per mensem. Alioqui diceremus, quòd propter quancunque momentaneam possessionis detentionem sequentem, hanc gravem poenam incurreret. Quod nimis esset rigorosum, attenta fragilitate nostri temporis: They may not afterward hold (neither the same Concubines, nor any other). Which words you must thus understand: That by the space of a whole month together he may not hold them. 
Not deposed for Fornication.  Otherwise we should say, that a Priest should run into this grèevous punishment for any short holding of his Concubine in possession following afterward. Which thing in deed were marvelous rigorous, specially considering the frailty of our time.  
Again the same Otho saith, 
In eodem Titulo.  Ordinamus, ut, si contra hoc praesumpserint venire, ab officio, & beneficio sint suspensi: We ordain, that, if any Priest do contrary hereunto (living incontinently, contrary to this Constitution) that then he be suspended, as well from his Benefice, as from his Office. Hereunto your Gloze addeth, Rigorosa quoque esset haec poena, nisi esset pro Adulterio, vel incestu: Etiamsi Episcopus esset huiusmodi labens: And this punishment also were over rigorous, unless it were for Adultery, or incest: (For he may not so be punished for Fornication) Yea although the party so falling were a Bishop. And again in the same Gloze, Propter solam Simplicem Fornicationem, de benignitate Canonica, non debet Clericus deponi, vel privari: Licet secùs fortè de Canonis rigore: By the Courtesy of the Canons, only for Simple Fornication, a Priest may not be deposed from his Office, or depruied from his Benefice: All be it, perhaps by the rigour, or extremity of the Canons, it would be otherwise. 
Extra De purgatione canonica. Accepimus: In Glossa.  The very true cause hereof is more plainly expressed in your own Gloze upon the decretals: Quia pauci sine vitio carnis inveniuntur: For without the vice of the flesh there are but few (Priests) to be found.  
All this notwithstanding, ye say, If the Bishop wink, and dissemble, and bear with the wickedness of the Priest in this behalf, that then he himself ought to be punished by Suspension from his Office. This, M. harding, is a Canon of your own making: for other Authority ye allege none. But how may it seem likely, that ye so cruelly punish your Bishops, for favourable dealing herein, seeing your High, and alonely Bishop, and the Bishop of all Bishops, is so well content, upon agreement for money, to licence both Bishops, and Priests to keep Concubines?  
If ye mistrust the truth hereof, 
Extra De judicijs. Ca 4. §. De Adulterijs.  besides your Common practice, as you know, your own Pope Gregory himself will soon tell you, De Adulterio, & alijs Minoribus Criminibus, Episcopus potest cum Clericis post poenitentiam dispensare: touching Adultery, and other small Faults, the Bishop after Penance done, may dispense with a Priest. Where also it is to be noted, that Adultery in your Divinity is reckoned among the petite Sins. Likewise again it is to be noted in your Gloze, 
Extra. De Bigamis. Quia Circa: In Glossa. Authen. De Trien. & Semiss. Colla. 3. Extra. De Bigamis: Quia circa. In Glossa.  Cum presbyteris habentibus plures Concubinas, Episcopus potest Dispensare, ut suum officium exequantur: With priests having sundry Concubines, the Bishop may dispense, that they may nevertheless do their Office. Wherein ye seem somewhat to overreach thee emperors Courteste touching the same: For thus he writeth, unam Concubinam qui habet, non plures, castè vivit: He that keepeth one Concubine only, and no more, liveth chastely. And in the said former Gloze, ye shall find an other special note of your own, well worthy to be written in the Pope's privy gallery in letters of Gold: Nota, quòd plures concubinas habens non incurrit irregularitatem: Mark well, that he, that keepeth sundry Concubines, is not thereby made irregulare. And again, Nota Mirabile: 
In eadem Glossa.  quòd cum eo, qui peccat, dispensatur: & cum eo, qui non peccat, non dispensatur: Mark well: Here is a marvelous strange reckoning: The Bishop dispenseth with him that offendeth (having sundry Concubines): but with him, that offendeth not (having married two wives) he dispenseth not. And further he saith, Plus habet hîc Luxuria, 
In eadem. Gloss.  quàm Castitas: Here Lechery hath more privilege, than Chastity.  
Again in your Decrees it is written thus, 
Dist. 81. Quidam Clerici. In Gloss.  Quaecunque Clericis taliter coniunctae sunt, auferantur ab Episcopo, & Venundentur: What so ever weemen have such Company with Priests, let them be removed by the Bishop, and sold, and made slaves. Unto this Law being in itself over rigorous, 
Not deposed ●or Fornication.  the Gloze addeth this favourable Construction: Venundentur: verum est, si contrahunt cum illis, tanquam cum uxoribus. Alias non concedo, posse vendi propter simplicem Fornicationem: Let them be sold, and made slaves. This is true, if the Priests marry with them, as with their wives. Otherwise I grant not, that for Simple Fornication they may be sold.  
Likewise again it is noted in your Gloze, 
Dist. 23. His igitur. In Glossa.  Nota, Frequentationem tantùm Viduarum, & virginum prohiberi: Mark well, that it is not the coming to widows, or Maids, but the often hauntinge unto them, that is forbidden. Otho in his Legantines' saith thus, Qui detinet publicè Concubinas, etc. The priest, that Openly keepeth Concubines, 
Constitu. Ochonis, De Concubini, Clericor. removendis: Licet ad profugandum.  let him be deposed: Hereupon your Gloze saith thus, Tu dic. Publicè, quando Multitudini se patere non expavet. Secus ergo, si secretè intra domum propriam, vel altenam detineat hanc Concubinam. Nam tunc poenam huius Constitutionis non incurret. Domus enim rem secretam, non autem publicam denotat. Dic ergo, publicè, id est, Communiter, & coram multis. Non ergo sufficit, quòd semel, vel bis talis publicè videatur: He that Openly keepeth Concubines, etc. Understand thou by this word, Openly if he be not afraid, though he appear unto the people. It is otherwise, If he keep his Concubine secretly, whether it be in an other man's house, or in his own. For so he cometh not within the danger of this Law. For a house betokeneth, not ●n Open m●ter, but a Secret. Thus therefore expound thou this Constitution: If he keep his Concubine Openly, that is to say, If he keep her Commonly, and in the sight of many. Therefore, if such a Concubine's wise, or thrice be seen Openly, it is not sufficient. In the same ●lose of yours, ye have these words, that I have alleged before, Si non Castè, tamen Cauté.  
And, whereas you say, If a Bishop show favour herein, he himself shallbe suspended, Your own doctor Abbate Panormitane would have told you the contrary: 
De Cohabitae. Cleruorum. & Mulier. ●●autem, Abb.  Episcopus non tenetur deponere Clericum Concubinarium: The Bishop is not bound to deprive a Priest, that keepeth a Concubine.  
To make short, ye have also of great providence, devised a special Praemunire, to embolden your Priests in Fornication, and to warrant them free from all danger of any your Laws, 
2. Quae. 7. Laici.  made in that behalf. For thus you say, Si Laicus, instigante Diabolo, accuset Clericum incontinentiae, statim repellitur. Laici in accusatione Episcopi audiendi non sunt: If a Laieman, by the instigation of the Devil, accuse a Priest of incontinent life, straight way he is thrust back, and put to silence. The Late sort may not be heard in the accusation of a Bishop. And again, Laicus non potest Clericum de Fornicatione accusare: 
Dist. 81. Maximianus. In Glossa.  A Laieman may not accuse a Priest of Fornication. This i● that extremity, and unmerciful rigour, M. harding, that ye show your Priests in these cases. No Laieman may accuse them: No Bishop may deprive them: No Law may touch them.   

M. harding.  
The third lie is, that Cardinal Campegius, Albertus Pighius, and certain others have taught, that a Priest liveth more Holily and more Chastely, that keepeth a Concubine, than he that hath taken a wife in Matrimony. Why do ye not tell us, where they have taught so? Will ye that we believe your bare word? How can we, having taken you tardy in so many and so manifestlye●? Aristotel once asked▪ what a common liar gained by his lyeinge, 
* This Answer much toucheth M harding himself.  that (quoth he) when he telleth truth, no man will believe him. Wisdom would sirs▪ ye took good heed, that ye prove not such gainers. Now we require you to bring forth proof of that ye charge these learned men withal. We are sure ye cannot.  
The words of Pighius be these: But put case (saith he) they, which have vowed chastity, all do not that they may and ought to do, 
Fornication better than Marriage.  to attain the grace of continency: and therefore they be not only tempted, but also overcome with temptation for the more part. What then? Shall it be a less evil for them to marry? For to say it is better, thou mayest not, which the Apostle imputeth to damnation, if they break their first Faith. For these (I say) shall it be less evil, and less damnable to marry, then to be overcome with lusts?  
Therefore where ye impute unto him that he maketh the keeping of a Concubine to be a more Holy and a more chaste life in a Priest, then taking of a wife in Matrimony, it is a fowl lie, and a false slander. Neither is there in that Doctrine any filthiness at all, which Philip Melanchthon, whom here ye follow, chargeth him withal.  
touching that point of doctrine itself, S. Paul confirmeth it, to whom the Marriage of those that be bound to vow of continency, seemed so wicked and heinous a Sin, that he pronounceth the will to marry to be damnable. Now your conjunctions with your yokefellowes (we mean only so many of you as have vowed Chastity) 
* Untruth. For S. Augustine saith, Qui dicunt, talium. Nuptias non esse Nuptias. sed potiùs Adulieria, mihi non videntur satis acutè, ac diligenter considerare, quid dicant. De Bono Viduita. Cap. 10.  are not in deed Wedlocks, but Incestuous Aduoutries. And right so we find them named by Cyprian, Basil, Chrysostom, Ambrose, Jerome, Photius, and other Holy and learned Fathers.  
But perhaps ye say, both are Aduoutries, whether a vowed person Marie, or commit Fornication. Let it be so. 
‡ O Sage considerations.  Yet is not that sin more grievous which a man committeth of set and determined purpose, then that which he falleth into by humane frailty? And that evil which continueth, is it not much worse, then that which hath intermission (and no end?)   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Apology saith, that Campegius, Pighius, and others more of your side, have told us, that a Priest, keeping a Concubine, liveth more Holily, and more Chastely, than a Priest, that hath a wife, and liveth in Matrimony. Here ye cry out, as your wont is, slanders, Lies, foul lies, and I know not what For thus only they say, say you, That Fornication in this case is less ill, than Màtris money. How be it, M. harding, laieinge all cavils, and shifts aside, the less ill, in use of speech is commonly called the greater good. And in this sense it is written, 
Eccle 40. Eccle. 42. 2. Petri. 2.  Better it is to Die, then to want. And again, Better is the iniquity of a Man, than a woman doing well. So jonas saith, Death unto me is better than Life. So S. Peter saith, Better had it been for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then knowing the same, to be turned back from the Holy Commandment, that is given unto them. These, and other like phrases are often used in the Holy Scriptures, not for that Death, or Iniquity, or Ignorance of God's justice, be good in deed, but for that in comparison of other worse things, they seem to import some less ill.  
Fornication, ye say, is not better than Marriage: But Marriage is worse than Fornication. Thus it seemeth you good, to shadow your matters by shift of words, from worse to better, and from better to worse. And yet in all plain men's judgements, If Marriage be worse than Fornication, then is Fornication better than Marriage.  
But to let you understand, 
Hulderichus Episcop. Augustanus. The same Epistle is found in ancient Record under the name of Volusianus Episcopus Carthaginensis.  we have dealt simply, and plainly herein, Hulderichus the Bishop of Augusta in Germany, writing unto Pope Nicolas against the restraint of Priests Marriage, above seven hundred years passed, useth like manner of speech, as we have used. Thus he saith, Huius imperij, ne dicam, confilij, tam fatuam, tamque turpem addunt suggestionem, ut dicant, Honestius est, Pluribus occultè implicari, quàm apertè in hominum vultu, & conscientia cum una ligari. Quod profectò non dicerent, si ex illo, & in illo essent, qui dicit, Vae vobis Pharisaeis, qui omnia facitis propter homines: Unto this commandment, I will not say, unto this Counsel, they set so foolish and so shameful a suggestion, that they say, 
Fornication better than Marriage.  It is an 
* An Honester thing.  Honester thing for a Priest to be entangled with many Concubines, in Secret, and privily, then Openly, and in the light, and knowledge of the world, to be joined in Marriage with one Wife. Which thing Verit they would not utter, if they were either of him, or in him, that saith, Woe be unto you, ye Phariseis, that do all things to please men.  
In like sort the Council of Worms wrote sommetime against Pope Hildebrande, for that he had devised great rigour, & tyranny, to sunder Priests from their Wives: 
Concil. Wormaetien. Ex Auentino.  Scorta pudicis Coniugibus: Stupra, incestus, adulteria casto Connubio praefert: He pleaceth strumpettes before honest Wives: and Fornication, incest, Aduoutesie before chaste Marriage. 
Hosius in Petricoven. Confess. Cap. 56.  notwithstanding, your doctor Hosius saith, Turpis Philippo videtur haec oratio: Catholicis autem honestissima: These words unto Philip Melancthon seem shameful: but unto the Catholics they seem most Honest.  
What need we many words in so clear a case? The whole practice of your Church, M. harding, professeth the same. If a Priest marry a Wife, ye Suspend him: ye Excommunicate him: ye Deprive him: ye Disquiet, and trouble the whole Church. But if he keep a Concubine, one, two, or more, ye are then contented, and ready, not only to dissemble it, but also with favour to excuse it. For so ye say, as it is alleged before, Clericus Concubinarius in officijs vitandus non est, 
Extra. De Cohabita. Clerico & Mutier. Ca final. Abb.  nisi sit notorious: A Priest, that keepeth a Concubine, unless he be very notorious, may not be eschewed in his Service. Again ye shall find this lesson specially noted in your rubric, 
Dist. 34. Is. qui.  as it is said before, Qui non habet Vxorem, loco illius Concubinam debet habere: He that hath not a Wife, in steed of her ought to have a Concubine. Ye will say, There is an Error in your print: which thing may easily be granted, specially the whole Book being otherwise so full of errors. But would God your errors in Life, & Doctrine were no greater. How be it, it followeth immediately in the same Decree, Is qui non habet Vxorem, & pro Vxore Concubinam habet, à Communione non repellatur: Who so hath no Wife, and in steed of a Wife hath a Concubine, let him not be removed from the Communion. In these words, I trow, ye will say, there is no error.  
Upon the Legantine Constitutions of Otho Bonus, ye may find these words noted in the Gloze, 
Consti Othonis. De Concubinis Clericor. removen. Licet ad Profugandum. Augusti. De Moribus Manichaeorum Li. 2. Ca 18.  Nunquid compelli potest Clericus concubinam abiurare? Videtur, quòd non. Resolutio, Si Clericus duxit Vxorem de facto, eo casu juramentum exigitur: Whether may a Priest be forced tofore swear his Concubine? It seemeth, he may not. The Resolution hereof is this: If a Priest have in deed Married a Wife, in this case he is forced to foresake her by an Oath. Therefore we may say to you, as S. Augustine said sommetime to the Manichees, Non Concubitum, sed. ut longè antè ab Apostolo dictum est, verè Nuptias prohibetis: Ye forbid not Copulation: but, as it was long ago forespoken by the Apostle, in deed ye forbid very Marriage.  
Now, for as much, as ye say, ye are no Angels, and your infirmities ought to be considered, it shall not be amiss, shortly to see, what your own friends have thought of these infirmities. And here, to pass over other Authorities, your own Doctor the Bishop of Bitonto, being present at your Late Chapter at trident, of your whole Single Life, which ye call Chastity, pronounceth thus: Quibus turpitudinum monstris, 
Concil. Triden. Session. 1.  qua sordium collwie, qua pest non sunt corrupti, non foedati in Ecclesia Sancta Dei, & Populus, & Sacerdos? A Sanctuario Dei incipite, patres, si ullus iam pudor, si ulla pudicitia, etc. Dicunt in cord impio, & ore impuro, Non est Deus: With what Monsters of filthiness, with what villainy, with what Pestilence are they not corrupted, and defiled in the Church of God, both the People, and the Priest? My Lords, begin even with the Sanctuary of God: if there be any shame, if there be any honest Life. They say with wicked haste, and filthy mouth, There is no God.  
another saith, 
Hermannus Riddus, De vita & hones. Cleri. Paralip. Vrspergen. in Clemen. 5.  Propter multitudinem luxuriae, alia vitia quasi non peccata reputantur: For the multitude of Lechery (that is in Priests) other faults are taken for no sin.  
another saith, Defecit iam omnis Disciplina, & Religio in Cardinalibus: Et tres radices vitiorum, Superbia, avaritia, Luxuria validissimè dominantur: In the Cardinals now all Discipline, and Religion is decayed: And three roots of sins, Pride, Covetousness, and Lechery do most mightily prevail. S. bernard saith, Fingunt, 
Bernar. in Cantic. Serm. 66.  se amore Castitatis ista dicere: cùm ea magis causa turpitudinis fovendae, & multiplicandae adinuenerint: They beat us in hand, that they speak these things for love of Chastity: Whereas in deed they have devised the same, to the end to nourish, and to increase their fill thinness. This, M. harding, is your infirmity, which, in your judgement, of Courtesy, and Charity, we ought to bear withal.  
The places of S. Cyprian, 
The 2. part, the 8. Chapter, the ● Division. Dist. 27. Quidam.  S. Basile, S. Chrysostom, S. Ambrose, S. Jerome, and others, that may seem much to make with you in this case, and to condemn this kind of Marriage, are weighed, and answered before in a place more conuen●ente. Verily, S. Augustine saith, ●rauiter peccant, qui tales dividunt: They sin grievously, that divide them, that be so married.   

M. harding.  
Where ye say, there be many thousands of common harlots in Rome, we think there be many there in deed. Whether there be many thousands, we doubt. What number soever there is, they be too many. Those Courteghianes the Church of Rome doth 
* Not nourish, but tolerate. A proper excuse & a soar pounishement of open Whoredom.  tolerate, not nourish, trusting and looking, that by sermons, exhortations, and other convenient means, they may be called back to repentance, and to the way of salvation.  
That the Pope gathereth about a thirty thousand Ducats yearly of these Courteghianes by way of an annual pension, which these Defenders affirm, 
‡ Untruth. For it is most true, as it shall appear.  it is utterly false. Cornelius Agrippa, who favoured not the See of Rome, and was imbrued with Heresies, that sprang up in his time, was the first Author of this slander. If they pay the common taxes, which be levied to the Pope, who only hath civil Dominion over that City, they 
* Untruth manifest. For unless they pay, they shall not occupy.  pay not for that they may be suffered to continue that sinful trade of life, but so as the whole City payeth by poles, for that there they have their abode and habitation.  
first it is common to all great Cities in those hot countries, not to banish from among them that filthy generation of harlots, not by way of suffering, as a thing commendable in itself, but for the avoiding of a greater mischief. As 
‡ The Pope may dispense as well as God.  God suffered the hard necked jews to hate their enemies, and pinch them with usuries. Likewise Moses permitted a libel of divorce, not that these things were honest, but to th'intent by that means yet they might the rather love their Brothers, and lend them money freely, and abstain from murdering their wives. Even so men now adays so little apply their endeavour to restrain the proneness which is in their flesh to all riot and carnal concupiscence, that if some way were not (as the least concerning outward and civil punishment) 
* This is a joily Catholic Diui●●ie.  winked at, whereby the Fleashely men might obtain some part of their unruly desire: it were more than likely, that in this great decay of virtue in general, the furious rage of that vice would leave neither wedlock undefiled, nor Virginity unassaulted, nor a worse enterprise, which Nature abhorreth, unattempted. Would God experience had not taught many Countries this to be too true an observation.  
S. Augustine hereof saith. 
‡ S. Augustine rote these Books▪ de Ordine, before he was baptized.  Quid sordidius, etc. What can be said more unclean, more void of comeliness, more full of turpitude, than harlots, bawds, and such other like pestilences? Take harlots from among men, 
Stews in Rome.  ye shall disturb all things with lecherous lusts. Put the same in the steed of matrons, ye shall dishonest (all things) with spot and sha●●. And why is the Bishop of Rome to be blamed for that they be in Rome, more than the French King, the King of Spain, or any other Prince, for suffering them in their dominions?  
It remaineth, we seek whether they have also the lowest and vilest place in that City, or no: lest perhaps, although they be a 
‡ A vile Untruth They are not necessary.  necessary evil, yet being promoted above their degree, they make an evil show in the body, where they rest. Their place may be considered two ways, in respect of the temporal, or of the Ecclesiastical order or law. For temporal order thus they stand: Not to have free liberty of dwelling in the most haunted streets, and palaces, where them list, but 
* Untruth. For the Cardinals themselves say, Habitant insignes Aedes.  only to be in such corners, and bylanes, and small outhouses, as are most fit shops for the vile merchandise of such occupiers. Again they can not without a very great forfeit ride in 
‡ Untruth For the Cardinals say: Mula vehuntur.  Coaches, or Chariots, as Matrons there do, but are constrained either to keep their homely homes, or to walk a foot in the streets. And then also by order they must be 
* Untruth. For the Cardinals say, Incedunt ut Matronae.  in such apparel, that as jew, by their red caps, so they by their short veils (a note of dishonesty) be known to all, and be subject to all shrewdness of the boys of the streets, who use commonly to mock and revile them.  
And here I can not but mislike with that malice which appeareth to be in the makers of this Apology. For 
‡ This is one of the Cardinalle virtues of Rome, to take tolle of Bawdry.  it is a virtue in the Prince to set great burdens and payments upon so filthy a profession, to the end he may fear women from it, and make them the sooner weary of it, etc. In good sooth masters ye are too young to control the City of Rome in her doings.  
Besides all this, if in that sinful state they continue to their end without repentance, 
* Untruth. Sea the Answer.  it is not lawful for them to make any testament or last will for bestowing of their goods, but as condemned and infamous persons, they must leave all to be confiscated and disposed at the Prince's pleasure. But on tother side, if they turn and repent, there are houses called Monasteries of the Convertites, and special provision and discipline for them, where they are taught how to be wail their unchaste life so sinfully passed over.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
touching the number of your Courteghianes of Rome, whether they be twenty thousand, or more, or less, we will not strive. They be leased out in see farm: The Pope's rents are always certain. For Fornication is finable in Rome, and a good saleable kind of sin. But this, you say, is an other Lie, as false, and as sclounderous, as the rest. For, ye say, they pay no yearly pension for their sufferance in that trade of Life: but only the common taxes, which are likewise raised upon other Citizens. Whether it be so, or no, M. harding, it is sufficient for you, so to say. Otherwise, he that raiseth such fines upon bawdry, might well be thought to be the bawd.  
How be it, your own Doctors herein will soon condemn you. For thus it is written by them in your own Gloze: Videtur, 
Constitu. Othonis. De Concubinis Clericor. removendis.  quod crimen Meretricij Ecclesia sub dissimulatione transire debeat. Name & Mareschallus Papae de facto exigit tributum à Meretricibus: It seemeth, that the Church ought to dissemble the fault of whoredom. For the Pope's Marshal in deed receiveth a tribute, or pension of Whores.  
Whereas ye say, Cornelius Agrippa was the first Author of this slander, it is untrue. For your own Gloze last before alleged, avoucheth it by the Authority of johannes Andreas, 
johan. Andreas mortuus est an. 1348.  a notable canonist, that lived well-near two hundred years, before Agrippa was borne. And Nicolaus de Clavengijs, that lived in the time of the Emperor Sigismunde, in his Book entitled, De Corrupto Ecclesiae statu, 
Nicolaus De Clavengijs: In Paralipomen. Vrspergen. Ann. 1417.  hath one special Chapter, De Exactionibus pro concubinis tolerandis, Of Exactions for the suffering of Concubines.  
But all this ye wipe away easily with one word. For ye say, The Courteghianes in Rome pay these impositions, not as a portion of their unthrifty gaistes, but only as a punishment for their wicked life. For it is not lawful there to commit sin freely, without payment. And thus is the matter well defended.  
So it is noted upon your Decrees, Quòd dicitur, Sacerdos non potest percipere mercedem prostibuli, 
14. quae. 5. Quod verò. In Glossa. Et Dis. 90 Oblationes, in Glossa.  potest dici, quòd non debet recipi Oblatio Meretricis: licet Eleemosyna possit inde fieri: Whereas it is said, The Priest may not receive the reward, or Oblation of the stews, we may say, that the Oblation of an Harlo● may not be received: notwithstanding we may make an almose of the same: That is to say, A harlots money may be taken by the way of almose, but not by the way of Oblation. Thus are we taught, and it behoveth us to believe, that the Pope may live, not by the Oblations of the Courteghianes, but by their almose.  
Now for as much as M. harding would so feign have this matter to pass by the name of a punishment of these ill weémennes, I beseech thee, good Reader, to consider, how greevousely, and with what extremity, and rigour of Law they have devised, 
Constitu. provin Edmundi Cantuar. Archiepiscopi.  to have them punished. In a Provincial Council holden at Oxford it is written thus, Concubinae Sacerdotum moneantur ab Archidiacono, etc. Let Priests Concubines be warned by the archdeacon etc. If they will not amend, then let them be forbidden to Kiss the Pax, and to take Holy Bread in the Church. With such extremity, and cruelty they keep the people from doing ill.  
It was neither for your profession, M. harding, nor for your gravity, to become a proctor for the stews. Although it might well become Leontium, an Heathen Courteghiane of lewd conditions, that wai to bestow her wit, and Eloquence against Theophrastus, in the defence of that filthy state, yet may not the same likewise become a Christian man, and a professoure of Divinity.  
Ye call your Courteghianes a Necessary Evil: but by what Authority of the Scriptures, I cannot tell. That the whole trade, and life of them is ill, we take it, as your grant: But that they be Necessary in any Christian Common wealth, I reckon it very hard for you to prove. Ye allege the heat of the Country: as if that were a sufficient warrant for your Stews. And yet, I trow, the town of Louvain, and the Country of Brabante, where ye now inhabit, is not so hot. The heats of Jewry are thought far to pass all the heats of Italy. Yet God saith unto the jews, 
Deutero. 23.  Non erit ulla Meretrix de filiabus Israel: nec Scortator de filijs Israel: There shallbe no Whore of the Daughters of Israel: Nor Whoorekeeper of the Sons of Israel. And even now, where so ever the Gospel of Christ is openly, and freely received, notwithstanding the heat of the Country, your Stews, and Bordels flee away, as the night clouds before the Son. But after that your Priests were once forbidden lawful Marriage, than was it needful, that your Necessary il should come in place. How be it, 
Roman. 3.  S. Paul saith, Let us not do ill, that good may follow. For just is the damnation of them, that so say.  
But S. Augustine standeth full of your side: S. Augustine hath written in the behoove of the Stews: S. Augustine saith, Take harlots away from among men, 
Augustin. De Ordine, Li. 2.  and ye fill all the Country with ribaldry, and villainy. In deed the very name of S. Augustine is great, and Reverend. But what if S. Augustine, when he wrote these words, were not S. Augustine? What if he wrote that Book, De Ordine, being as yet a very young man, & but a Novice in the Faith: not yet well instructed: not yet Baytized in the name of Christ: himself as yet keeping a Concubine, and living in whoredom? Shall such a one, so young, and so youthful, go for a Saint? Or shall his bare name, and unseasoned fantasies stand you in steed, to prove your Stews?  
Verily, the same S. Augustine, being afterward fully instructed, and Christened, saith thus, 
Augustin De Civitate. Li. 14. Cap. 18.  Istam in usu scortatorum terrena Civitas licitam fecit turpitudinem: The worldly City (not the Church of God) hath made this filthiness of harlots to be lawful. And Ludovicus vives, writing upon the same, saith, Satis apertè Augustinus ●estatur, 
Ludo. vives in Librum De Civitate. Lib. 14. Cap. 18.  lure Civili veteri Romano multa esse permissa, quae sint contra●ia Legibus Divinis. Hoc isti volunt, qui, dum Gentilitatem coniungere, & coaptare Christianismo laborant, corrupto utroque, & alterius impatient, nec Gentilitatem, nec Christianismum retinent: S. Augustine plainly witnesseth, that by the old Civil Roman (and Heathen) Law, many things were suffered, which were contrary to the Laws of God. This thing will not these men allow, who while they study (as you, M. harding, do) to join Heathennesse, and Christianity both together, both being corrupted, and the one not standing with the other, keep now neither Heathennesse, nor Christianity.  
Therefore we may much better exchange these words of Augustine, spoken in his youth, before he had well learned to speak: and ma●e much better say thus, Permit Lupanaria: & implebis omnia libidinibus: Suffer, and allow the Stews: and ye shall fill all the Country with ribaldry, and Villainy. And in this sense S. bernard saith▪ 
Bernard. in Cantic. Sermo. 66.  Tolle de Ecclesia honorabile Coniugium, & thorum immaculatum: Nun reples eam Concubina●ijs, incestuosis, seminifluis, mollibus, masculorum Concubitoribus, & omni denique genere immundorum? Take once from the Church honourable 〈◊〉, and the Bed undefiled: and dost thou not fill the same Church full of brothels, keeping Concubines, etc. and with all so●tes of filthy persons?  
Further ye say, And wherefore is the Bishop of Rome more to be blamed for maintenance of his Stews, than the French King, or the King of Spain? This is but a simple reason for a Doctor of Divinity. It is an old saying: Nil juuat exemplum, quod litem lite resoluit.  
Christ bade not his Apostles, to be lead by the example of worldly Princes. If it be ill in them, it is much worse in him, that would be called the Vicar of Christ, the Head of the Church, and the Holy one of Israel.  
another part of their paunishement is, as you tell us, that they may not ride sumptuousely in Coaches, or Chariots, or dwell in the open fair streets, and in the sight of the City: but are forced to go a foot, and to hide themselves in corners, and in out houses, and bylanes: and that, by your description, in such simple, and poor, and beggarly sort, as if they were the vilest, and ougleste of all the people, and had not a good clout to cover their bodies. Certainly, M. harding, your Courteghianes, if they understood hereof, would think themselves little beholden to such a proctor.  
doctor Peter Martyr, of whom I cannot speak without great reverence, having good cause to know the state of Rome, as few men better, hereof wrteth thus: 
Petrus Martyr. in Li. Iudicu●● Cap. 16.  None, O Deus bone, quomodò Romae coercentur Meretrices? Habent ornatissimas domos: vehuntur per publicum habitu principum: Sedent in equis gradarijs: habent secum Torquatos, & Laruatos Comites: interdum etiam Cardinals, praesertim noctu: & ancillarum sumptuosissimum gregem: Now a days, O good God, how are the Courteghianes punished in Rome? They dwell in the fairest houses: They are carried with honour through the City, as if they were Ladies: They are mounted on ambling palfrays: They are attended with chains of gold, and persons disguised, and sometimes Cardinals, and specially in the night season: and have a sumptuous sort of Maids to wait upon them.  
If ye shall happen to doubt M. Martyrs report in this behalf, 
Concilium Delectorum Cardinalium. Concil. tom. 3. Pag. 823.  yet I trust ye will give some credit to your own Friends, the Cardinals of the Church of Rome. Their words hereof be these: In hac etiam Vrbe Meretrices, ut Matronae, incedunt per Vrbem, seu Mula vehuntur: quas affectantur de media die Nobiles, familiares Cardinalium, Clericque. Nulla in urbe vidimus hanc corruptionem, praeterquam in hac omnium exemplari. Habitant etiam insignes aedes. In this City of Rome the Courteghianes pass through the streets, or ride on their Mules, like honest Matrons, or Ladies: and in the midst of the day, Noble men, the cardinals dear friends, and Priests attend upon them. We never saw such corruption, but only in this City, which is the example, and pattern of all others. Moreover they dwell in fair and notable houses. 
Anno. 1538.  This Information was presented unto Pope Paul the third by certain of his graveste Cardinals, appointed thereto by special Commission.  
Now, good Christian Reader, I beseech thee, consider the Conformity of these tales. M. harding saith, The Courteghianes of Rome go only a foot: These Cardinals say, They ride on Mules. M. harding saith, They have a special apparel of dishonesty, to be known by: These Cardinals say, They go, or ride, as honest Matrons, or great Ladies, or Noble women. M. harding saith, They be despised, and reviled of the people: These Cardinals say, They have Priests, Noble men, and the cardinals friends to attend upon them. M. harding saith, They dwell only in out houses, and back lanes▪ These Cardinals say, Habitant insignes Aedes: They dwell in fair, and notable Houses. So many Untruths it is no hard matter for M. harding to utter in so short a tale. Now, being so fine Dames, and so richly attired, it were great slander to say, They serve only for Varlet, or common rascals. If the report be true, upon twelfth day at night, in the year of our Lord, 1564. there were seen seventeen Coaches of Courteghianes arriving together even into the Pope's own Palace. 
Anno. 1564.  If any man shall think this report incredible, yet Luitprandus, 
Luitprandus, Li. 6. Cap. 6.  of the like hereof, saith thus, Lateranense Palatium, Sanctorum quondam hospitium, nunc est Prostibulum Meretricum: The Pope's Palace at Laterane, sommetime the harbour of Holy Saints, is now become a stew of whores.  
another part of their punishment, ye say, is this: That as condemned, and infamous persons, at their end they can make no Testament, nor take order with that they have. If this were true, it were a good token, that the Pope is Covetous to have their goods, more than desirous to save their Souls. How be it, the best Learned, and most notable canonists, that ye have, affirm the contrary. For prouse whereof read Cynus Pistoriensis in L. Cum te. C. De Condictione ob turpem causam: 
Cynus Pistorien. Baldus. Bartholus. De Immunita. Ecclesiar. Ca 14. Abb.  Read Baldus L. 1. C. in eodem capite: read Bartholus in L. Idem. ff. eodem Ca Abbas Panormitane, after long disputation had touching this matter, thus saith his judgement in the end: Conclude ergo ex omnibus premissis, quòd Meretrix turpiter non recipit dona, vel promissionem: & quòd potest de illis ad libitum disponere: Of all these premises conclude you thus, That a Harlot may receive rewards, or promises, without infamy, or shame (of the Law): and that of the same she may dispose at her pleasure. Therefore, M. harding, this tale would have been better studied. For this punishment, that ye have here imagined, by the judgement of the Learned, is no punishment.  
In good sooth Sirs, ye say further, Ye are to young to Control the City of Rome in her doings. Yet, in the rebuking of open vice, noman ought to be thought too young. But of what age then are you, M. harding, that are able thus to defend the City of Rome in open Whoredom? 
Primasius ad Roman. Cap. 2. Ephes. 5.  Primasius saith, Nemo periculosiùs peccat, quàm qui peccata defendit: Noman sinneth with more danger, than he that standeth in defence of sin. S. Paul saith, Let noman deceive you with vain words. For because hereof the anger of God cometh upon the Children of infidelity. Be not therefore partakers with them.  
And whereas you say, This policy is thought necessary for the eschewing of a greater il, 
Extra. De Celebra. Miss. De homine.  your Law telleth you, Abijcienda sunt falsa remedia, quae Veris, & manifestis periculis sunt graviora: We must abandon vain remedies, that are more grievous, than the true, and manifest dangers.  
S. Augustine saith, Non vult Deus tale lucrum compensari tali damno. God will not have such a gain to be recompensed with such a loss. S. Paul saith, as we have alleged before: 
Roman. 3. Tertullian. De Anima. Anthen. De L●nonibus.  They say, Let us do ill, that good may follow. But he addeth withal, Therefore just is their Damnation. Tertullian saith, Lupanaria execrabilia sunt coram Deo: stews are accursed before God. And therefore, to conclude, the Emperor justinian streitely commandeth, that harlots be banished out of all Towns.  
But here, good Christian Reader, this one thing I beseech the uprightly, and indifferently to consider: what thing will not these men defend, that can thus boldly defend confessed filthiness? Or, when will they reform the Church of God, that in so long time cannot yet reform their open Stews?  
These harlots, ye say, sometimes repent them, and amend their lives. God of his mercy grant, that you, M. harding, may once do the like: 
Hierem. 3. Matthae. 2●.  lest the words of the Prophet fall upon you, Frons Meretricis facta est tibi. God grant, that harlots, and Sinners go not before you in the Kingdom of God.   

M. harding.  
That ye tell of a Woman named joane, bearing the world in hand, she was Pope of Rome, it is a fond and avaine fable. Were ye so wise, as ye be malicious, ye would never have brought your credit in hazard by reporting such vanity. This I account for one of your accustomed lies. By this men may judge, what little store of true things ye have to object against us. Who listeth to see a Learned discourse written hereof, him may is please to read the annotations of 
* Onuphrius is a man yet living, hired of purpose to face out this matter.  Onuphrius Panuinius upon Platina, de vitis pontificum, 
In Vita johan. 8.  printed in Venice. And he shall easily believe the whole matter to be fabulous.  
After Anastasius, they that in their writings recite an exacterewe and order of Popes, as Ademarus, and Annonius of Paris, Regino, Hermannus Schafnaburgensis. Otho Frisingensis, Abbas Vrspergensis, Leo Bishop of Hostia, johanes of Cremona, and Godfridus Vrterbiensis, of which some wrote three hundred, some four hundred years paste, all these make no mention at all of this Woman Pope joane. Again there be in bibliotheca Palatina, at Rome, six or seven tables of the Pope's names written in sundry books, before the time of Innocentius the fourth. Marry in the margin of Pandulphus this fable is put in between Leo the fouthe, and benedict the third, written in a hand far different from the old characters of that Ancient Book, added by some man of later time. Which maketh the matter to be the more suspected, and taken for a fable.  
Though men had at that time ben so far bewitched, and distract of their five wits, 
‡ Semiramis being a woman was of long time taken for a man. Yet men's eyes were not bewitched.  as they could not have known a woman from a man, (which no wise man I ween believeth), yet 
* God hath suffered others as very monsters to sit in that See, as ever was Pope Johan.  it is not to be thought, that God himself, who appointed and ordained the Seat of Peter, whereof he would the whole Church to be directed, would depart so far from his merciful providence, toward the Church, as to suffer the same to be polluted by a woman, which is not of capacity for holy orders.  

‡ Untruth. For there were others before him, that written the same.  The first Author of this fable was one Martinus Polonus, a Monk of the order of Cisterce: Who wrote long after the time that Pope Johan is feigned to have lived in. Whose manner of writing if we consider, we shall find it vain, and nothing like to be true. It beginneth thus, johannes Anglicus natione, Maguntinus, sedit annos duos, mensem unum, dies quatuor, etc. john an English man by nation, of Maguntia, say (in the Roman See) two years, one month, and four days, alias, five months and three days. What a foolish speech is this, an English man Maguntine, or of Maguntia? It followeth in the fable, as the said Martin telleth. This (as it is said) was a Woman, 
Dame Johan the Pope.  and in the young age of a girl, she was brought to Athenes by one that was her Lover in a man's apparel, and there profited so much in diverse sciences, as none was found to be compared with her. To Athenes was she brought, saith the fable. And why? For learning. Very well. Whereas at that time 
* Untruths, two together  neither any Athenes stood, * neither was there any place of learning there any longer: but all the country of Attica became Barbarous, and utterly void of learning, as we understand by the writers of that time. The author reporteth, that from thence she came to Rome, and there professed learning openly, and had great Doctors to her Scholars, and for opinion of learning and good life, by one consent of all was made Pope. Which is soon confuted as false: 
‡ Untruths, 2. Read the Answer.  for there was no learning at those days openly professed at Rome, as ‡ the Stories declare.  
It followeth in the fable. Being in the Popedom she is begotten with child of her Servant. And not knowing the time of her deliverance, as she went from S. Peter's to Laterane, strained with pains between Colosseo and S. Clementes Church, she brought forth, and died, and was (as they say) there buried. Here is to be marked, how the 
* This Diviser dwelled in Rome, and lived above five hundred years ago.  deviser of this fable bewrayeth himself, and thinketh the matter hard to be believed. And therefore in the beginning saith, she was a Woman (ut asseritur) as folks say: and now he saith, she was buried, ut dicitur, as it is said. So he doth not affirm it to be true, but referreth all to heresaie. By which testimony lies commonly be soothed.  
And as it is false, that ever there was any such Pope, so is it not true, that ye note in the margin of your book touching the image, which ye say is to be seen yet in Rome, resembling that woman Pope lying in travail. The image, which ye mean, I have seen myself at Rome, graven in a stone, after the manner of a tomb stone, pitched upright not far from the Colosseo. It resembleth no such thing ye speak of.  
Neither is it of any more truth, which some have ignorantly written of the Pope's refraining to go that way, when he goeth thereby in solemn processions: nor that which I have read in some of your 
‡ Untruth. For they lived 500 years before us: and were the best writers of that time.  Schoolefelowes peevish books of the stool of easement, that is at Laterane made of fair porphyry stone, which they have reported to be kept there for an unseemly use at the creation of the Popes, for proof of their Humanity. Thus, we trust, we have brought your great matter of Pope joane to nought.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, in your judgement, is an other of our fowl shameful accustomed Lies. And that ye prove by the Authority of one Onuphrius, one of the Pope's late pages, specially hired, and procured, to help out this matter. Of the Truth, and certainty hereof, we shall consider further in the end. Now let us examine this New Coniectural Doctor with his gheasses. 
Not Registered.   
first, he saith, Dame Johan is not registered in the Calendare among the Popes: Ergo, it is but a vain Fable, that ever Dame Johan was Pope in Rome. This Conjecture, M. harding, is very simple. For I doubt not, but ye may well remember, that bishops names, as well in Rome, as otherwheres, have upon sundry occasions been oftentimes quite stricken out of the Calendare.  
So was Chrysostom's name upon displeasure, quite stricken out of the Table of the Bishops of Constantinople, 
In Vita Chryso. Chrys. Epist. 3. ad Cyriacum.  as if he had never been Bishop there.  
And Chrysostom himself, writing unto Cyriacus in his own defence, saith thus, Siquidem hoc feci, expungatur nomen meum ex albo Episcoporum: & non scribatur in Libro Orthodoxae Fidei: If I have thus done, let my name be razed out of the bishops Calendare: and let it not be registered in the Book of the Catholic Faith.  
And afterward his name being so defaced, and razed out, was restored again by Theodotus at the vehement request, 
Nicepho. Li. 14. Cap. 26. Gelesius ad Episcopos Dardaniae.  and instance of the people. So Acacius, the Bishop of Constantinople, razed out the name of Pope Foelix of Rome: So Innocentius, the Bishop of Rome, razed out the name of Arsacius the Bishop of Constantinople. And this is it, that S. Augustine meaneth, writing to the people of Hippo, 
Nicephor. Li. 13. Cap. 34.  Quid obest homini, quòd ex illa Tabula non vult eum recitari humana Ignorantia, si de Libro vivorum non eum delet iniqua Conscientia? What hurt is that unto a man, 
Augu. Epist. 137.  that the Ignorant people will not suffer his name to be read out of that Table, if wicked conscience blot him not out of the Book of Life?  
So writeth johannes de Parisijs of Pope Cyriacus: 
johan. De Parisijs▪ De Potesta. Regia, & Papali.  Cyriacus Papa renuntiavit officio, ut cum Ursula, & Virginibus palmam Martyrij susciperet. Sed iste Cyriacus in Catalogo Paparum non annumeratur: quia credebant, ipsum non propter devotionem, sed propter oblectamentum virginum dimisisse Episcopatum: Pope Cyriacus gave over his Bishopric, that with Ursula, and other Maids he might receive the Crown of martyrdom. But this Cyriacus is not reckoned in the Calendare of the Popes: for that it was believed, he had given over his Bishopric, not of devotion, but for some fantasy towards the maids.  
But, to come near the purpose, and to the force of your gheasses, therefore was Pope johanes name left out of the Calendare of the Bishops of Rome, not for that there never was any such Pope there: but only for shame, lest it should appear in record, and afterward be reported for ever, that a woman, and such a woman, had been Bishop of Rome: or, that the Bishop of Rome had been with Child.  
So saith Marianus Scotus, 
Marian. Scotus.  Huius Iohannae nomen Authores Pontificij non ponunt, propter turpitudinem rei, & muliebrem sexum: The Chroniclers, that writ of the Popes, leave out the name of Pope Johan, both for the shame of the matter, and also for the Wooman kind. 
Martinus Polonus.  So saith Martinus, johanna non ponitur in Catalogo Sanctorum Pontificum, tam propter Muliebrem sexum, quàm propter deformitatem facti: Pope Johan is not reckoned in the Calendare of the Holy Popes, as well for that she was a Wooman, 
Sabellicus Ennead. 9 Lib. 1. Pag. 469.  as also for the shame of the matter. So saith Sabellicus, Nullus Defunctae honor habitus. Fama tenet, ob tam foedae rei memoriam: There was no honour bestowed at her burial: 
johan. de Parisijs, De Potesta. Regia, & Papali.  The report is, for the remembrance of her filthy act. So saith johannes de Parisijs: So saith Fasciculus temporum. Therefore this first reason is but a very blind Conjecture, and beareth no force.  
An other of your gheasses is this: 
Knowing a woman from a Man.  men had been bewitched, and distracted of their wits, 
Fasciculus temporum.  if they could not have known a Woman from a Man. This reason, M. harding, beareth as great weight, and Substance, as the former. For your own Amphilochius, 
M. hardings Amphilochius.  that wrote the Life of Thomas Becket, could have told you, that Euphrosyna, that holy Maid, dwelt six and thirty years in Monks apparel among Monks, and was never otherwise taken, but for a Monk.  
Likewise Vincentius, 
Vincentius. Li. 9 Cap. 47.  and Petrus de Natalibus, and others your Writers, and Recorders of Fables, could have told you, that Tecla sommetime addressed herself in Man's apparel, 
Petr. De Natalib. Lib. 8. Ca 110 Ravisius Textor in Officina: Mulieres Virilem habitum mentitae. Simeon Metaph. In Eugenia.  and, had she not been forbidden by S. Paul, would have followed him in company, as a Man. Ravisius Textor writeth the like of one Marina, that dissembling, what she was, lived many years in an Abbey as a Monk. The like he writeth of Lasthenia, Axiothea, and others, that being women, came into the School in Man's apparel, to hear Plato. The like writeth your own Fabulare Simeon Metaphrastes of Eugenia. And, if ye lack other Authorities of trust, and credit, One of your own Companions of Louvain avoucheth the same of Melania, and Papula. And yet, I think, 
Copus Dialo. 2. Pag. 236.  he was not bewitched, as you say, nor thoroughly bereft of his wits.  
The quarrel, that ye pike to the Name, and Surname, is nothing else, but a childish cavil. For she was not called Johan English, by the name of the Country, 
Anglicus.  for that she was an English Wooman, borne in England, as you full fondly imagine, but only by the Surname of her Father. So are there many known this day by the names of Scot, Irish, French, Welsh, Westfalinge, Norman, Gascoingne, Brabante, Holande: and yet not borne in any of all these Countries, but only in England. So Mathias Parisiensis, as it is supposed, notwithstanding his name, was borne in Bohemia.  
Therefore, whereas ye would have the words vainly, and without sense, to be read, and pointed thus, johannes Anglicus natione, Moguntinus, etc. john an English man by nation, of Moguntia, etc. ye play, and toy, and trifle unseemly, and mock your Reader. For the words are clear, and plain, and lie thus: johannes Anglicus, Natione Moguntinus, etc. john English, (so Surnamed) borne at men's.  
Further ye say, 
God's Sufferance.  God would never have so forsaken Peter's Chair, as to suffer it to be polluted by a Wooman, which is not of capacity for Holy orders. This guess, M. harding, presumeth over far of God's Providence. And therefore Antoninus the archbishop of Florence, when he had opened this w●ole Story of Pope Johan, being astoned with the strangeness, and admiration of the matter, 
Antonin. Par. 2. Ti. 16. Ca 1. § 7.  could not refrain himself from crieinge out, O altitudo Sapientiae, & Scientiae Dei. Quàm incredibilia sunt judicia eius: O the depth of the Wisdom, and knowledge of God. How uncredible be his judgements? In like manner the Prophet isaiah crieth out, 
isaiah. 1.  Quomodò facta est Meretrix Civitas fidelis? How is that Faithful City become an Ha●●ot?  
And why might not Pope Johan, being a Wooman, have as good right, and interest unto the See of Rome, 
In Epistola Othonis Imper. ad johan. pp. Platyn. in johan. 13.  as afterward had Pope john 13. who, being Pope, had wicked company with two of his own Sisters: or others, whom for their horrible vices, and wickedness, Platyna calleth Monstra, & Portenta, Monsters against kind, and ilshapen creatures? Luitprandus saith, as it is before reported, Lateranense Palatium nunc est prostibulum Meretricum: The Pope's Palace of Laterane in Rome, 
Luitprand. Li. 6. Cap. 6.  is now become a stew of whores.  
All this notwithstanding, saith Antoninus, Nulli ex hoc Salutis praeiudicium fuit. 
Antonin. par. 2. Ti. 16. ca 1. §. 7.  Quia nec Ecclesia tunc fuit sine Capite, quod est Christus, unde percipit influxum Gratiae: Noman had binderance of Salvation by mean hereof. For (although the Pope were a Wooman, yet) the Church was not without a Head. For that Head is Christ: From whom she receiveth influence of Grace. Yea, although antichrist get himself into the See of Rome, yet shall the Church of God nevertheless continue still: Although in horrible confusion, and under great persecution.  
Further ye say, To Athenes was she brought, saith the Fable. And why? For Learning. Very well. Whereas at th●t time, neither any Athenes stood, nor was there any place of Learning there any longer: but all the Country of Attica became Barbarous, as we understand by the writers of that time.  
The City of Athenes was then overthrown, 
Athenes.  ye say, and Learning there utterly decayed. And therefore all this is but a Fable. And good reason it is, that we believe you, for that your Onuphrius hath so told you. But for your credits sake, M. harding, lest all men espy your Vanity, tell us, by whom was that Noble, & so Populous, and mighty City of Athenes thus laid waste? By what King? By what Captain? By what foreign nation? At what time? How long ago? Having not one poor Author to allege▪ how could ye pretend the names of so many without blushing?  
The City of Athenes had then continued well-near twelve hundred years: And for knowledge in Philosophy, & renown of Learning, was called the Eye, and University of all Graecia. 
Lumen. & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ruffinus in Apologia pro Origine: Apud Hierony. To●. 4. Georgius Patriar. in vita johannis.  Origen writeth of himself, that he was sommetime a Student in Athenes. Chrysostom being eighteen years old, for Learnings' sake, was sent to Athenes. S. Basile, and his Brother Gregory, afterward the Bishop of Nyssa, were Students at Athenes together thirteen years. Your own Amphilochius, whoes Authority ye may not in any wise deny, saith thus of S. Basile, Apprehendit Matrem Literarum Athenas: He came to Athenes, which is the Mother of Learning. Boethius of Rome planted himself in Athenes for Learnings' sake, about the year our Lord 520.  
In the year of our Lord 680. the Bishop of Athenes was present at the Council holden at Constantinople, 
Ruffin. ●i 2. ca 9 M. hardings Amphilo●●ius. Theod. vi●. 〈◊〉 r. in Epist. ad 〈◊〉.  called Synodus Sexta. After that, in the year of our Lord 742. at the second Council of Nice a great number of the bishops of Graecia were present in their persons all together. Within few years after which time, followed Pope Johan, in the year of our Lord 853.  
Hitherto the whole Country, and Church of Graecia continued in safety: and the Emperors of Christendom made their continual abode in those parts. And have you, 
It appeareth in the Subscriptions of the 2. Nicene Conc. Anno. 742.  M. harding, so suddenly thrown down all together, both Church, Country, Town, and Castle, only to keep Pope Johan from her Study?  
Ye say, The whole Country of Attica was then become Barbarous. This tale is your own, & hangeth only upon your own credit. Yet Platyna, Sabellicus, & others more, that wrote this Story, and knew, what they wrote, were not so Barbarous. But Barbarous is he, M. Harding, that will believe your simple word without warrant.  
At that time, ye say, the City of Athenes was not standing. But Paulus Aemylius saith, 
Paulus Aemylius Lib. 6.  that long after that time, in the Reign of Philip the French King, 
Ann. Domi. 1220.  Gottofredus one of the House of Tricasses, was appointed, & made Dux Athenarum, & Princeps Achaiae. The Duke of Athenes, and the Prince of Achaia. If there had been then no Athenes standing at that time, as you tell us, how then could Gottofredus have been made Duke of Athenes? If ye say, as ye may do much by your Conjectures, that, notwithstanding the City of Athenes were razed, and made waste, yet the dignity, or name of honour remained still, yet will the same Aemylius once again reprove your error. For, writing afterward of certain Pirates, that had invaded the Country of Graecia, he saith thus, 
Paulus Aemylius Lib. 8.  In terram Atticam delati, Athenarum Ducem Brennae Nobilitatis virum occiderunt, Vrbemque ceperunt: Inuadinge the Country of Attica, they took, 
An. Domini. 1288  and slew the Duke of Athenes, one of the house of Brennus, and took the City.  
These things happened, as it is easy to reckon, well-near four hundred, and fifty years after the time of Pope Johan. Now therefore, I beseech you, M. harding, consider indifferently with yourself: If there had been no City of Athenes then standing, how could these Pirates then invade, and take the City of Athenes? Shall we say, They levied an army, and disquieted the Country, and troubled themselves, and came so far to catch a shadow?  
Thus hitherto it appeareth not, but if Dame Johan would have gone to Athenes, there was room sufficient to receive her.  
After that she came to Rome, and there professed Learning openly. This, 
No University in Rome  you say, is soon confuted as false. For there was no Learning at those days professed at Rome, as the Stories do declare. This is very soon confuted, M. harding: and specially by him, that recketh so little, what he say. Leave this Hypocrisy: dissemble no more: It is not manly: 
Dame Johan the Pope.  Tell us in good sooth, what Writers, what Stories declare these things? your credit faileth over much: your word is no sufficient warrant.  
Ye say, There was no Learning in those days professed in Rome. And why so? Will ye now say of Rome, as ye erst said of Athenes? Will ye say, There was no City of Rome then standing? Will ye say, Learning there was then utterly decayed, and the whole Country become Barbarous? If there were no study, or place of Learning then in Rome, where then was there any study in all Christendom? For the Universities of Parise, Orleans, Tolouse, Salerne, Padua, Bononia, Praga, Salamanca were erected long afterward. And therefore ye seem to say, that all the whole world than was Barbarous.  
But that ye may the better see your oversight, S. Jerome, writing of Victorinus, and Donatus, 
Hierony. in Appendice Annalium Eusebij.  saith thus: Victorinus the Rhetorician, and Donatus the Grammarian, my Schoolmasters, are accounted notable in Rome. And again he saith, Victorinus natione Apher, Romae sub Constantio principe Rhetoricam docuit: 
Hierony. in Catalogo Scriptor. Illustrium.  Victorinus borne in Aphrica, taught Rhetoric in Rome in the time of the Emperor Constantius.  
Erasmus, writing the Life of S. Jerome, saith thus, Romam missus est, velut ad primariam eo saeculo tum Religionis, 
Erasmus in Vita Hieronym.  tum Eruditionis Magistram, Liberalibus studijs erudiendus: quod ipse declarat enarrans 11. Caput Ezechielis: Jerome was sent to Rome, as to the Principal Schoolemaistresse in those days, both of Religion, and also of Learning: as he himself declareth, expounding the eleventh Chapter of Ezechiel. 
August. Confess. Lib. 5. Cap. 8.  S. Augustine saith, Egisti mecum, O Deus, ut mihi persuaderetur, Romam pergere, & potiùs ibi docere, quod docebam Carthagine: O God, thou movedst my mind to go to Rome, and there rather, to profess openly the same Learning, that I had professed at Carthage. And further he saith, Audiebam quietiùsst udere ibi adolescentes, & ordinatiore Disciplinae correctione sedari: I heard say, that young men there went more quietly to their books, and were kept in orderly obedience to their studies.  
And in the Tripartite work joined unto the Council of Laterane, ye may find the story hereof recorded thus: 
In Opere Tripar. Li. 2. Ca 10.  Primò Athenis Romam translatum est studium Philosophicum: Deinde Roma Parisios' tempore Caroli, ut dicunt Historiae● first the study of Philosophy was translated from Athenes to Rome: and afterward, as the Stories say, in the time of the Emperor Charles, it was translated from Rome to Parise.  
What shall I more say? The Pope himself in his own decretals saith, Rome is an University. 
Extra. De Privilegijs, Li. 4. Cum de diversis. In Sexto.  These be his words, Curia Romana habet Studium Generale, & eius privilegia: The Court of Rome hath an Universal Study, and the Privileges of the same. And again Pope Clemens saith, In Studijs Romanae Curiae, Parisijs, Oxonij, Bononiae, Salamancae debent esse Professores Linguarum, Hebraicae, 
Clemen Lib. 5. De Magistris.  Chaldaicae, Arabicae: In the Universities of Rome, of Parise, of Oxford, of Bononie, and of Salamanca, there must be Professors of the Hebrew, Chaldee, and Arabike tongues.  
To be short, Theodoricus Niemus, sommetime the Pope's Secretary, and therefore having good cause, to know the truth hereof, and, for aught that I know, no cause to dissemble, of this whole matter writeth thus: Et nunc est Titulus, Cardinalis praedictae Scholae. 
Theodoric. Niemus. Citatur ab Illyrico in Testia bus Veritatis.  Et olim in ea legebantur Septem Artes Liberales, & praecipuè Rhetorica: & etiam in ea legit quandoque Beatus Augustinus: & johannes, vocatus de Anglia. Et fuit Mulier de Maguntia nata, quae studuit Athenis sub virili habitu: & in tantum profecit in Artibus, ut tandem veniens Romam, per biennium in eadem Schola Artes Liberales legerit: & adeò sufficiens fuit, ut etiam Maiores, & Nobiliores urbis eius Lectiones frequenter audiverint. 
Dame Johan the Pope.  Et posteà in Papam eligitur, etc. Even now a Cardinal beareth the Title of the said School, or University of Rome. And in old times the Seven Liberal Sciences, and specially Rhetoric were read in the same. There also sometime read. S. Augustine: and one, that was called john of England. This john was a Woman, borne at men's (in Germany), and had studied at Athenes in the apparel of a man: and had so profited in the Arts, that at last coming to Rome, two years together she professed the Liberal Sciences in the same School. And her gift in teaching was such, that the Elders, and Nobles of the City resorted often to hear her read. afterward she was chosen Pope, etc.  
Thus many ways, M. harding, have we found an University, or School in Rome: and no cause to the contrary, but Dame Johan, being so well learned, as it is said, might well be a Reader there.  
But ye say, 
The Pope's time of travail.  why kept she not herself in? Her Midwife might better answer this question. But what if she were suddenly prevented before her time, as many be? Or what if God would have such a matter so openly known, to the everlasting Detestation, either of the Person, or of the Place? Certainly, Antoninus the archbishop of Florence, being astonished with the horror hereof, as it is said before, 
Antomin. Par. 2. Titulo 16. Cap. 1. §. 7.  crieth out, O the depth of the wisdom, and Knowledge of God. O how unsearchable be his judgements?  
The Author hereof, 
Vt asseritur.  say you, durst not to avouch the matter for an undoubted Truth: but only saith, Vt asseritur, as it is said: and so referreth all the whole to hearsay. notwithstanding, M. harding, many there be, that writ this Story, as a certain Truth, without doubting, or credit of hearsay. And Platyna, all be it he would not seem to avouch over much, for the honour of the See of Rome, yet thus he saith, 
Platyna in johan 8.  Quod ferè omnes affirmant: Which thing in a manner all men do affirm. And Ravisius Textor saith, Scitum est ex Chronicis, & à Maioribus Scriptum: It is known by the chronicles, 
In Officina.  and written by our Elders. It is known, saith one: It is affirmed in a manner by all men, saith an other: But for the space of eight hundred years, & more, there was no Writer, I trow, so impudent, that would condemn it for a Fable, as you do, and utterly deny it to be true.  
touching the Marble Image representing a woman in child bearing, 
The Marble Image.  and the Pope's sudden breaking of his way, in his solemn procession, let each man weigh them, as him listeth. But, where ye compare that Image to one of the great rag stones at Stonage, or Long Compton, as if it were utterly unwrought, and without shape, ye seem wilfully to avouch, as your manner is, a great Untruth. 
Theodoricus Niemus.  Verily, Theodoricus Niemus, the Pope's Secretary, saith, Et adhuc vetus Statua Marmorea illic posita figuratiuè monstrat (hoc factum). unde Summi Pontifices, dum ad Lateranum de Basilica Principis Apostolorum, & contra vadunt, illud iter rectum non faciunt. Imò per alias vias per indirectum transeunt, illud aliquantulum prolongando: Even unto this day an old Marble Image there erected, under a Figure showeth this matter. Therefore that Popes, when they pass from S. Peter's Church to Laterane, or backward, they take not their journey straight forth: but pass undirectly by other streets, making their way some what the longer. This therefore is not an old wives dream, as you say, but the judgement of sundry the wiseste, and best learned in Rome, who might best know the matter.  
As for the Chair of Porphyry stone, which otherwheres ye call the Chair of ease, 
The hollow Chair.  it is too vile to be answered. Sabellicus saith, Spectatur adhuc in Pontificia domo Marmorea Sella, 
Sabellicus Enneadis. 9 Li. 1.  circa medium inanis: qua novus Pontifex continuò ab eius Creatione residet: Vt sedentis genitalia ab ultimo Diacono attrectentur.  
But, let Truth be falsehood: and let Stories be Fables. Yet, M. harding, it may please you to remember, 
Dame Johan the Pope.  that the same Fable was raised first in Rome, and from thence only, & from no place else, was published abroad into the world. But let the Popes own Secretaries, and all the people there be deceived: and, to shadow the shame of that See, let Rome itself be the Mother of lies. Let noman know the certain Truth of matters, but only Onuphrius, the Popes Paraste, and M. harding. Yet neither would so many Chronicles have recorded, nor would the whole world so universally have believed these things of the Pope, more than of any other Bishop, had there not been wonderful corruption of manners, and dissolution of Life, and open horror, and filthiness in that only See above all others.  
How be it, good Christian Reader, that thou mayst well, and clearly understand, that our dealing herein is plain, and simple, and that we have not imagined these mates, or any parcel thereof of ourselves, may it please thee to read Platyna in johann 8. 
Testimonies for the proof of Pope Johan.  Sabellicus, Enneadis 9 li. 1. Leonicus Chalcondyla a Greek writer, Li. 6. Marianus Scotus, that lived about the year of our Lord 1028. Sigibertus Gemblacensis, that lived about the year of our Lord, 1100. Mar●●us Polonus, the Pope's Penitentiary, whom M. harding so much defaceth: that lived about the year of our Lord, 1320. Ravisius Textor in Officina, Ca Foeminae habitum virilem mentitae: Antoninus the archbishop of Florence, par. 2. ti. 16. Volaterranus: Nauclerus: Carion: Constantinus Phrygio: Christianus Massaeus: Matthaeus Palmerius Florentinus: Supplementum Chronicorum: Chronica Chronicarum: Fasciculus temporum, and others more. Of these some lived four hundred, some five hundred years ago: and have ever been counted worthy of some Authority: notwithstanding, for your Dame johanes sake, you, M. harding, begin now to clip their credit. How be it, what so ever they were, certain it is, They were no Lutherans.  
notwithstanding, some of your own Fellows of Louvain could have taught you, to have dealt herein more discreetly: and not so precisely, and peremptorily to have denied the whole Story: specially being sent to you from your friends in Rome, and confirmed by so many. And therefore one of your Lovaniens would seem handsomely to excuse, & shift the matter by possibility of Nature. For thus he saith in effect, What if the Pope were Hermaphrodi as, an Herkinalson, 
Hermaphroditus.  that is to say, a man, and a woman? both in one? Or if this help will not serve, he seemeth further to say, What if the Pope, being first a man, were afterward changed into a woman? And thus, for want of better Divinity, he forceth Ouides Metamorphoses to serve the turn. If ye would have taken this man's advise, out of doubt with such a pretty, What if, ye might soon have put us out of countenance. 
Copus Dialogo 1. Pag. 47.  His words be these, Neque ego hic quicquam dico de Hermaphroditis, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, de quibus veterum libri pleni sunt. Et ne à nostri tempo●●s memoria longiùs abeam, non ignoro, monumentis literarum esse traditum, Mulierem quandam nomine Acmyliam, Antonio Spensae Civi Ebulano nuptam, post duodecimum à nuptijs annum in virum transijsse. Legi etiam alteram Mulierem, ubi puerum peperisset, in marem fuisse mutatam: I will here say nothing of such persons, as be called Hermaphroditi, and are both Man, and Woman, all in one: whereof in old Writers we find much mention. But not to go further, then to the remembrance of our own time, I know it is written, that a certain woman named Aemylia, married unto one Antonius Spensa a Citizen of Ebulum, ten years after she had been married, was turned into a man. I have likewise read of an other woman, that, when she had been brought abed, afterward became a Man. These notable Stories he allegeth, to answer the matter of Pope Johan. Thus he thinketh it a great deal the safer way, to make the Pope an Herkinalson, or by Miracle to turn him from a man into a woman, then simply, & plainly to confess, that ever Dame Johan was Pope in Rome.  
If you had taken this same way, than all this story had been a Fable: and a woman had been a man: and we had utterly been confounded.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 1.  
But what need we rehearse Concubines, and Bawds? For that is now an ordinary, and a gainful sin in Rome. For harlots sit there now a days, 
Genes. 38.  not as they did in times passed, without the City walls, and with their faces hid and covered: but they dwell in palaces & Fair Houses: they stray about in Court, and market, & that with bare and open face: as who would say, they may not only lawfully do it, but aught also to be praised for so doing. What should we say any more of this? Their vicious & abominable life is now thoroughly known to the whole world. bernard writeth roundly & truly of the Bishop of Rome's house, yea & of the Bishop of Rome himself. Thy Palace, saith he, taketh in good men, but it maketh none: naughty persons thrive there, and the good decay. And, who so ever he were, which wrote the Tripartite work, annexed to the Council of Larerane, he saith thus, So excessive at this day is the riot, aswell in the Prelares and Bishops, as also in the Clerks and Priests, that it is horrible to be told. But these things be not only grown in ure, and so by custom & continuance of time well allowed, as all the rest of their doings in manner be, but they are now waxed old, and rotten ripe. For who hath not heard, what a heinous act Peter Aloisius, Pope Paul the thirds Son committed against Cosmus Cherius the Bishop of Fanum: what john Casa, archbishop of Beneventum, the Pope's Legate at Venice, wrote in the commendation of a most abominable filthiness: & how he set forth with most loathsome words, and wicked eloquence, the matter, which ought not once to proceed out of any body's mouth? To whose ears hath it not come, that Alphonsus Diazius a spaniard, being purposely sent from Rome into Germany, so shamefully and Divelishely murdered his own Brother john Diazius, a most Innocent, and a most Godly man, only because he had embraced the Eospel of jesus Christ, and would not return again to Rome?  
But it may chance, to this they will say: These things may sometime happen in the best governed Common Wealths, yea & against the Magistrates wills: & besides, there be good Laws made to punish such. I grant, it be so: But by what good Laws (I would know) have these great mischiefs been punished amongst them? Petrus Aloisius, after he had done that notorious Act, that I spoke of, was always cherished in his Father's bosom Pope Paul the third, and made his very dearlinge. Diazius, after he had murdered his own Brother, 
Petrus Aloisius the Pope's Son.  was delivered by the Pope's means, to th'end he might not be punished by good Laws. john Casa the archbishop of Beneventum is yet alive, yea & liveth at Rome, even in the eye and sight of the most holy Father.  

M. harding.  
Courtisanes went abroad, so as the Matrons do: some road on Mules, some dwelled in goodly houses. Which particular disorders, 
* Untruths great and notorious.  as there they continued not many years, * so in these days they have been reform. Wherein ye follow the Father of your Heresies, and schoolmaster of your malice the Devil, 
Apocal. 12.  who in Scripture is called Accusator Fratrum nostrorum, the accuser of our Brethren.  
But sirs, how leap ye from Rome to Placentia, from the Cleregy to a Temporal Duke, whom ye call the Pope's Son, though he was not his Son being Pope, but by lawful Matrimony before holy Orders taken? For such a one was Peter Aloisius of whom ye speak. Be it, that he was an evil man. What maketh that against the Church? 
johan. Casa.  what for Defence of your new Gospel? If johannes Casa being yet a young spring all, before he came to be a Clerk, and long before he was either Bishop or Legate, 
O, a fair Boonegrace, to beautify open and known wickedness.  made certain amorous sonnets in Italian rhyme, foloweinge the Italian poet Petrarcha, to which kind of exercise the good wits of Italy in youth are much given, and without naming any person, flatteringly smoothed that heinous fact, rather than praised, wherein nevertheless he did evil, we confess, and for the same oversight of his youth, was notwithstanding his other excellent qualities kept back from the dignity of Cardinalship during his life: all this being granted and considered, what hindereth it the estimation of Christ's Church? And what furthereth it your false Doctrine, your Schisms, and your Heresies? touching the Death of john Diazius the spaniard, ye tell 
* Untruth. For we tell no Lie. Read the Answer.  many lies at once.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We leapt not so lightly to Placentia, M. harding, but rather reaste at Verona, and say the Truth. For Pope Paulus, that should have punished his wicked Son, and have burnt him to death for his abominable outrage, removed not to Placentia, 
johan. Sleidan. Li. 19  but remained still in Rome. johannes Sleidanus saith, that the young Gentleman, the Bishop of Fanum, upon whom Petrus Aloisius the Pope's Son had showed that horrible villainy, shortly after died for shame, and heaviness. Yet, he saith, it is thought of some, that Petrus Aloisius, after his wicked act committed, gave him poison, and so killed him, least he should make complaint thereof unto the Emperor. He addeth further, Paulus nihil ò secius impensè amabat Filium: & ad ipsius amplificationem omne studium convertit. Et cùm de eius flagitijs nonnunquam audiret, fertur non admodum aegrè tulisse: & hoc solùm consuevisse dicere, Haec illum vitia non se commonstratore didicisse: Pope Paul nevertheless favoured his Son above measure: and bestowed all his care, to increase him in Honour. And, whereas he heard sometime of his shameful acts, the report is, that he was not much offended therewith: but used only thus to say, Well, yew is he never learned these vices by my example. So cruel, and terrible is the Pope in repressing of sin.  
But God of his justice would not suffer such abomination to escape unpunished. Certain of the Nobles of his own City, not long after, arose against him, & slew him in his own Palace, & hung out his vile Carcase in shameful sort, by a chain over the walls, & afterward threw it over into the mote. The people of all sorts ran gladly to the sight: and stab him in on every side with their Daggers: and trod him filthily under their feet.  
ye say, the particular disorders of your Courteghianes in these days at the last have been Reformed. And yet by very credible report, even within these two years, which was in the year of our Lord 1565. 
johannes Diazius.  by a perfect view taken, there were found in Rome to the number of eight & twenty thousand weemen of that sort. If this be the Reformation of the Church of Rome, what was it then, before it was thus Reformed?  
As for that most horrible Book of johannes Casa, so vile, and so loathsome, that no Heathen ears could abide to hear it, O how favourably, and how friendly it is excused? He was then, ye say, but a young man: but a springal: no Bishop: no Clerk: He named no person: It was but a kind of exercise: an oversight: an Amorous Sonette: The good wits of Italy be much given to it: He praised not that fault, but only smoothed it. O M. harding, what abomination is there under Heaven, but ye can devise ways, how to smooth it?  
But he was punished, ye say, full soar for his oversight. For he could never be made Cardinal, during his Life. Yea, good M. harding: And all this must we believe, because you speak it. The Pope made him the archbishop of Beneventum, and Legate a Latere, and thereby one of his Secret Council, in part of this cruel punishment. But, though he upon that, or some other occasion, were kept back from being Cardinal, yet were there others made Cardinals, in all respects as had, 
Andre. Alciatus in Epist. praefixa Historiae Pauli jovij.  as he. Read Andreas Alciatus, that notable Civilian: And ye shall find, what a minion was made Bishop of Comum, when Paulus iovius was put beside. Read Paulus iovius in the Life of Clemens. 7. and learn, what pretty folks than were made Cardinals, and for what causes. As for your own Onuphrius, he speaketh Parables, and casteth colours, and would seem to mean more hereof, 
Paulus iovius. Onuphrius in julio. 3.  than he durst to utter.  
The Emperor Tiberius sommetime placed Novellius Tricongius in most high and Honourable room, and made him Proconsul, in part of recompense of his good service, 
Sueton. Tranquil. in Tiberio. Tricongium uno Spiritu.  for that he was able to drink three pottles of Wine together with one breath. This was not the worthiest cause of promoting such Magistrates to such a room: yet was there more honour, and honesty in this cause of prefermente, then hath been thought to be in the preferring of sundry Cardinals.  
touching the murdering of johannes Diazius by his own Brother Alphonsus, wherein, ye say, we have told you so many lies at once, we refer ourselves to the Story thereof truly written by johannes Sleidanus: 
johan. Sleidan Lib. 17.  the effect whereof in short is this: One johannes Diazius a spaniard, and a Doctor of Sorbona in Parise, after that God had given him grace to understand the Truth of the Gospel, 
An. 1546.  departed from thence, and came into Germany, and reasted at Nuburge in the Dominion of Otho Henricus County Palatine. His Brother Alphonsus Diazius, being then in Rome, and understanding hereof, immediately took Horses, and with all speed came into Germany, minding to withdraw his Brother from his purpose. And finding him constant, and steadfast, and not likely any ways to be removed, in the end he feigned himself, by the weight of his reasons, to be persuaded to the same Religion: & desired him to return with him into Italy, for that he should do more good there, than he could in Germany. But seeing him for sundry causes firmly bent to stay there, he took his leave, and departed thence, and exhorted him to continue constant in the Truth, and came to Augusta, six dutch miles from Nuburge. The next day, as having forgotten some special matter, he had to say to his Brother, he returned back again from thence to Nuburge, and by the way bought a Carpenter's axe, and entering into the Town upon the. 27. of March, he came to his Brothers lodging at the break of the day, and himself watching beneath, sent up his servant with the Axe to do the deed. The servant, after he had called forth johannes Diazius, and had delivered him a letter from his Brother Alphonsus, and saw him turned towards the light to read the same, came suddenly behind him, and struck him in the head with his Axe, and leaving it sticking in the wound, came away together with Alphonsus his Master. This is the very true story hereof, M. harding, and in all these words there is no lie. touching your Courteghianes, ye say, the Pope of late hath made a general Reformation. For now they are both removed from their fair palaces, wherein they dwelt, & also put from their Mules: As if the fault had been only in their Mules, or Houses, and not rather in their whole trede of life. Certainly, the same weemen continue still, even in the City of Rome, and that unto the number of eight & twenty thousand, as it is said before. Such is the Reformation of the Church of Rome.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 1. &. 2.  
They have killed infinite numbers of our Brothers, only because they believed truly, & sincerely in jesus Christ. But of that great and foul number of harlots, fornicators, Adulterers, what one have they at any time (I say not, put to death) but either Excommunicate, or once attached? Why? voluptuous, Adultery, ribaldry, Whoredom, murdering of kin, Ineeste, and others more abominable parts, are not these counted Sin at Rome? Or, if they be Sin aught Christ's vicar, Peter's Successor, the most holy Father, so lightly, & stiely to bear them, as though they were no Sin, & that in the City of Rome, & in that Principal Tower of all Holiness? O holy Scribes and Phariseis, which never knew this kind of Holiness. O what a Holiness, what a Catholic Faith is this? Peter did not thus teach at Rome: Paul did not so live at Rome: they did not practise brothelry, as these do openly: they made not a yearly revenue and profit of harlots: they suffered no common Adulterers, and wicked Murderers to go unpunished. They did not receive them into their familiarity, into their Council, into their household, nor yet into the company of Christian men. These men ought not therefore so unreasonably to triumph against our living. It had been more wisdom for them, either first, to have proved good their own life before the world, or at the least, to have cloaked it a little more cunningly. For we do use still the Old and Ancient Laws, & (asmuch as men may do, in the manners used at these days, all things being so wholly corrupt) we diligently, and earnestly put in execution the Ecclesiastical Discipline: we have not common Brothel houses of Strumpettes, nor yet flocks of Concubines, nor Herds of cost haunters: neither do we prefer Adultery before Matrimony: neither do we exercise beastly sensuality: neither do we gather ordinary rents and stipends of Stews: nor do we suffer incest, and abominable naughtiness, nor yet such Aloisians, Casians, and Diazians to escape unpunished. For if these things would have pleased us, we needed not to have departed from these men's fellowship, amongst whom such enormities be in their chief pride and price. Neither needed we for leaving them, to run into the hatred of men, and into most wilful dangers.  
Paul the fourth, not many months sithence, had at Rome in prison certain Augustine Freers, many Bishops, and a great numbered of other devout men, for Religion's sake. He racked them, and tormented them: to make them confess, he left no means unassayed. But in the end how many Brothels, how many Whoremongers, how many Adulterers, how many Incestuous persons could he find of all those?  

M. harding.  
This ye deny as impudently, as ye affirmed the other matter of Diazius falsely. Wherefore what punishment is due to slanderers, that aught this Defender to have for this false slander. Then cometh me your Secretary, and praiseth himself, and all you his holy companions, besides all wit and modesty. And saith much in commendation of your Ministershippes' goodness, for that ye keep and use still the Old and Ancient Laws, forsooth, and discipline of the Church.  
For Shame, 
A brave, and a lusty kind of Eloquence.  for Conscience, for regard of the world, for fear of God's wrath, for avoiding everlasting fire, return to the Catholic Church, from whence ye are broken out like the faite Bulls Basan, put away your most unlawful yokefellowes. Leave yourselves to be abominable, before with such spiteful railing ye reprehend our 
‡ Fornication, Open Stews, and incest, are M. hardings Infirmities.  Infirmity.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 3.  
Our God be thanked, although we be not the men, we ought, and profess to be, yet whosoever we be, compare us with these men, and even our own life and innocency will soon prove untrue, and condemn their maliceouse surmises. For we exhort the people to all virtue and well doing, not only by Books and preachings, but also by our examples and behaviour. We also teach that the Gospel is not a boasting, or bragging of knowledge, but that it is the Law of life, and that a Christian man (as Tertullian saith) ought not to speak honourably, but aught to live honourably: nor that they be the hearers of the Law, but the doers of the Law, which are justified before God.  

M. harding.  
Nay, nay, Sirs, for that thing ye crack so much of, be not to hasty to thank your God. What peculiar God ye mean, we know not. That phrase your secretary much useth, as though ye had an other God beside him that is God of all. Compare yourselves with whom ye list, your own life and innocency is so well known, as by reproving your vices and horrible sins, no man lightly shall seem a slanderer. In deed if your continual adultery and Incest were lawful Matrimony, if your filthy yoke fellows were your true wedded wives, if your robbing, and throwing down of Churches were almose, and building of places for prayer to the increase of God's Honour, if ignorant rashness were godly discretion, if your word of the Lord, where God's word, if your pretenced Gospel, were Christ's true Gospel, if your biblebable and railing were wholesome preaching, if the Spirit of Satan, that is in you, the same also being a lying Spirit in your mouths, could be meek, humble, 
* Is this the modestic the spirit of God.  obedient, and would tell Truth, finally if evil were good, if darkness were light, if sour were sweet, 
Our God. our Lord.  if the fruits of your so naughty a tree were good: we would also sooth you, and uphold your immoderate cracks. We say plainly of you at one word, which we will to be a watch word for all Christian people to beware of you, your Doctrine is Heresy, your Life is iniquity, your endeavour tendeth to the subversion of Souls.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It is no great Crack, M. harding, to give God thanks. But what uncourteous dealing is this of your part? Sir Defender, and his fellows must come to you, & learn to speak. notwithstanding for aught, that may appear, ye are not yet very well advised, how to speak yourself. Now, because we say, we thank our God, our Secretary hath made himself a Several God. How be it, you may say, Our Lord, and think him not Catholic, that will say otherwise: and yet make you not yourselves thereby any Several Lord. God give you Grace, ye be not severed from the Lord. But wherefore it should be more lawful for you, to say, Our Lord, then for us, to say, Our God, I think it a high point of cunning for you to open.  
Thus ye would have us sometimes to say, Our Lord: sometimes, The Lord: sometimes neither. It were a skilful Cook, that knew your diet. How be it, 
Psalm. 46.  The Prophet David saith, 
Psalm. 64.  Deus noster refugium, 
Psalm. 113.  & Vrtius: 
Psalm. 63.  Our God, our Refuge, 
Psalm.  and our strength? 
Psalm. 67.  sing Psalms unto Our God: 
1. Corinth. 1. & 14.  Our God is the God of Salvation: 
Philip. 1.  Our God is in Heaven: 
1. Corinth. 6.  My God, o My God, I wake early unto thee: Thou art My God: I trust in thee: My lotes are in thy hands. S. Paul saith, I thank My God always: I give thanks unto My God. Thus was it lawful then for the Apostles, and Propehtes to speak without rebuke: neither was there any M. harding then so uncourteous, to say, They made themselves a peculiar God.  
S. Paul saith, We are justified in the name of jesus Christ our Lord, and in the Spirit of Our God. S. Augustine saith, Contra istos Mirabiliarios cautum me fecit Deus Meus, 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 13. August. De Ci●i. Li. Cap. 29. Chrysostom. in Psalm. 96.  dicens, In Novissimis diebus surgent Falsi Prophetae: My God hath willed me to beware of these Mungers of Miracles, telling me, that in the last days there shall rise up False Prophets. Again he saith, Deus Meus ubique praesens est: ubique totus: nusquam inclusus: My God is everywhere present: everywhere whole: nowhere enclosed, or shut up. Chrysostom saith, Christo meo testificabantur & Venti, & Mare: Both the Winds, and the Sea bare witness to my Christ.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hierony. Aduersus error. johan. Hierosoly mitan. Cyprian. De Bono Poenitentiae. Sedulius, In. 2. Corinth. 6.  Ego non Patrem, non Matrem, non Germanum adversus Christum meum audiam: I will not hear neither Father, nor Mother, nor Brother against my Christ. S. Cyprian saith, Hic est Deus noster, id est, non omnium, sed Credentium, & Fidelium Deus: This is Our God, that is to say, not the God of all, but the God of the Believers, and of the faithful. Sedulius saith, Deus Naturâ omnium est: Voluntate verò paucorum: God by Nature, is the God of all: but by will, he is the God of Few. But what shall we need many Doctors, the case being so clear? You yourself, M. harding, in this self same Book, either of purpose upon some better advise, or unwares, have written the same. Consider well your own words: 
M. Hard. Fol. 124. b. Galat. 2.  Thus ye say, There is no iniquity in Our Lord God. Yet, I trow, by these words, ye make not to yourself a peculiar God.  
S. Paul saith, I live in the Faith of the Son of God, which hath loved me, and hath geeven himself for my sake. Which words S.. Chrysostom, writing upon the Genesis, 
Chrysostom. in Genesim. Homi. 34.  expoundeth thus: Qui dilexit me, etc. Vt proprium usurpas commune beneficium. Profectò, inquit: Nam licet pro omni hominum genere Sacrificium oblatum sit, tamen propter amorem in eum, id, quod factum est omnibus, proprium mihi facio. Ita & Prophetis mos est, & facere, & dicere, Deus, Deus Meus: quamuis totius Orbis sit Deus. Sed peculiare hoc est amori, ut ex communibus propria faciat. Qui dilexit me. Quid dicis? An te dilexit solum? Omnem, inquit, hominum Naturam dilexit. Sed ego illi Gratias debeo, quasi me Solum dilexisset, & tradidisset semetipsum pro me Solo. S. Paul saith, Christ hath loved me. O Paul, The benefit, that is common to all, thou usest as peculiar to thee self. Yea verily, saith S. Paul: For all be it that Sacrifice were offered for all Mankind, yet for the love, that I bear towards him, the thing that was done to all, I account as proper, and several to me self Alone. Thus the manner of the Prophets is to do, and to say, O God, my God: notwithstanding be is the God of all the World. But this is the special, and alonely office of Love, of things common to make things peculiar. Thou saist, Christ hath Loved me. What saistet thou? Hath Christ loved thee Only, and ●oman else? No, saith Paul, He hath loved all Mankind. But I owe him thanks, as if he had loved me Alone, and had given himself Only for me.  
henceforth, M. harding, it may please you to give us leave to speak, as the Prophets, the Apostles, the Holy Fathers, and Doctors have spoken before us.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 1.  
Besides all these matters, wherewith they charge us, they are wont also to add this one thing, which they enlarge with all kind of spite: that is, that we be men of trouble, that we pluck the Sword, and Sceptre out of kings hands: that we arm the people: that we overthrow judgement places, destroy the Laws, make havoc of possessions, seek to make the people Princes, turn all things upside down: and, to be short, that we would have nothing in good frame in a Common Wealth. Good Lord, how often have they set on fiere Princess hearts, with these words, to the end they might quench the light of the Gospel in the very first appearing of it, & that men might begin to hate the same, ere ever they were able to know it, and to the end that every Magistrate might think, he saw his deadly enemy, as often as he saw any of us. Surely it should exceedingly grieve us, to be so maliciously accused of most heinous treason, unless we knew, that Christ himself, the Apostles, and a number of good Christian men, were in time passed blamed, and reviled in like sort. For although Christ taught, they should give unto Cesar, that which was Caesar's, yet was he charged with sedition, and was accused to devise some Conspiracy, and to seek ways to get the Kingdom. And thereupon they cried out with open mouth against him in the place of judgement: If thou let this man escape, than thou art not Caesar's friend.  
And though the Apostles did likewise evermore, and steadfastly teach, that Magistrates ought to be obeyed, that every soul ought to be subject to the Higher Powers, not only for fear of wrath, & punishment, but even for conscience sake, yet bore they the name to disquiet the people, and to stir up the multitude to rebel. After this sort did Haman specially bring the Nation of the jews into the hatred of King Assuerus, because, said he, they were a rebellious and stubborn People, 
The Bowers in Germany.  and despised the ordinances, and commandments of Princes. 
3. Reg. 18.  Wicked King Achab said to Elie the Prophet of God, It is thou, that troublest Israel. Amasias, the Priest at Bethel, 
Amos. 7.  laid a conspiracy to the Prophet Amos charge, before King jeroboam, saying, See, Amos hath made a conspiracy against thee, in the midst of the House of Israel. To be brief, 
Tertul. in Apologetico.  Tertullian saith, This was the general accusation of all Christians, whiles he lived, that they were Traitors, that they were Rebels, and the enemies of Mankind. Wherefore, if now adays the Truth be likewise evil spoken of, and being the same Truth, it was then, if it be now like despitefully used, as it was in times passed, though it be a grievous and unkind dealing, yet can it not seem unto us a new, or an unwonted matter.  

M. harding.  
How far ye have attempted (I mean the sects of your brotherhood) in sundry Countries, to wrest the Sword out of Prince's hands, to transpose their Sceptres at your pleasure, and to alter states and signories, though we hold our peace, 
* Untruth, notorious, and manifest to all the world.  the world judgeth, the blood of so many thousands slain speaketh, England repenteth, scotland mourneth, Germany roareth, France bewaileth, Savoie weary, all Christendom lamenteth. 
‡ These Bowers for the greatest part were enemies unto Luther.  Were the hundred thousand Bowers of Germany consumed by the Sword of the Nobility there for their obedience? The Duke of Saxony, and Landgrave of Hesse, were they overthrown in field and taken captive, for standing in Defence of their Sovereign? Were so great multitudes of people destroyed at Munster for their loyalty? Your sacramentary Suitzers of Berna, who rob the quiet Old Duke of Savoy of his Towns, and Countries, from the farther side of the lake of Geneva unto the Alpes, did they this for mainetenance of his right, and to set him at rest with little? What meant ye, when ye laid your Heads together, being at Geneva in Queen Mary's days, the Faithful 
* All this great multitude of England, and Scotland, stood only in two persons. We know no more.  Brothers of England, and scotland, and devised a most Seditious and Traitorous Book against the monstrous regiment of Women?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, for want of matter, ye thought it good policy, to furnish your tale with store of words: The World judgeth: Blood speaketh: England repenteth: scotland mourneth: Germany roareth: France bewaileth: Savoie weary: Christendom lamenteth. If ye had not well studied your Copia Verborum, ye could never have been halt so copious, nor have been able, so many ways to utter nothing. Ye might happily have said, Your cardinals cry, and your Pope roareth, and your Friends stand aluffe, and tear their hear, and say, as it is written in the Apocalyps, 
Apocalyp. 18.  Vae, vae Babylon, Civitas illa Magna: Alas, alas Babylon, that Great City.  
God be thanked, The kingdoms, & Princehoodes of the world stand now in as safe, & in as quiet, and flourishing state, as ever before. Therefore this Tragical Rhetoric might better have served you some other where.  
The Bowers of Germany, of whom ye speak, for the greatest part, were Adversaries unto Doctor Luther, and understood no part of the Gospel: but conspired together, as they said, only against the cruelty, and tyranny of their Lords: as they had done two and twenty years before in the same Country, in the Conspiracy, 
Liga Sotularia. An. 1503.  called Liga Sotularia, fifteen years before Doctor Luther began to Preach: The partners of which Conspiracy had for their watch word the name of Our Lady: and in the honour of her, 
Regiment of women.  were bound to say five ave Maries every day. 
D. Luther began to Preach, An. 1518.  Certainly, touching these Later Rebels, it is known, that Luther sharply and vehemently wrote against them. And they themselves being demanded thereof, 
johan. Sleidan. Lib. 4. & 5.  utterly denied both partetakinge, & also the knowledge of the Gospel.  
The Princes of Germany raised not their Powers, as ye say, against the Emperor Charles the fifth: 
Paralipomen. Vrspergen. Anno, 1525.  but being wrongfully, & contrary to the Law of Arms invaded by him, they were forced, being free Princes, by the Law of Nature, to draw their sword in their own Defence.  
The Rebels at Monster were not Gospelers, 
Nicola. Gerbellius Phortzensis.  as ye seem to mean, but frantic anabaptists, and Heretics, as ye be: and therefore enemies unto the Gospel.  
The Lords of Berna never were Subjects to the Duke of Savoie. That they took certain of his Castles in their Confines, than did it rightly, and by the Law of Arms, being forced thereto by daily invasions, & robberies, and not able otherwise to live in rest. But in deed the said poor Duke was thoroughly spoiled of his whole Dominion: of the one half, by his Brother in Law the Emperor Charles. 5. of the other half, by his nephew Francise the French King, by the counsel of Pope Clemens. 7. after their great interview at Marsiles. And thereof was devised a pretty Pasquil, declaring the miserable case of the poor Duke, Diviserunt sibi vestimenta mea: & super vestem meam miserunt sortem: They have divided my apparel amongst themselves: and they have cast lotes for my Coat.  
The Heads of England, and scotland, that, as ye say, were laid together at Geneva, touching the government of women, being well accounted, were nothing so many, as ye would seem to imagine. For if there had been but one less, for aught, that I have heard, there had been but one at al. Such hot Amplifications it liketh you to make of so small a number. We will defend noman in his error. Let every man bear his own guilt. M. Caluine, M. Martyr, M. Musculus, M. Bullinger, and others, whom you call the Faithful Brothers of England, misliked that enterprise, and wrote against it.  
We know, that God hath determined this matter long sithence: For thus he saith, 
Numer. 27.  Si Homo moriatur absque Filio, ad Filiam eius transibit Haereditas: If a Man die without a Son, his inheritance shall pass unto his Daughter. And S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Civita Li. 3. Ca 21.  Lata est Romae Lex illa Voconia, Ne quis Haeredem Foeminam faceret, nec unicam Filiam. Qua Lege quid iniquis dici, aut cogitari possit, ignoro: There was a Law made in Rome, called Lex Voconia, That noman should convey his Inheritance unto a woman, no not unto his only Daughter. Then which Law I know not, what may be more wickedly thought, or spoken.  
But, God be thanked, that of his Mercy, hath now raised up unto us a Woman of such Wisdom, Learning, Clemency, Gravity, judgement, Government, and other Noble, and Princely Virtues, as have not been seen in many men. God increase her daily with his Holy Spirit, and make her and old Mother in Israel. Amen.  
Of your sturdy blasts, and Secret breathings, M. harding, I will say nothing. ye may yet remember, which of your company it was, that in the time of that Noble Prince of Blessed Memory King Edward the .6. said in open parliament, Woe be to that Kingdom, the Prince whereof is a Child. And afterward, seeing the Queen's Majesty, that now is, placed in her estate, boldly, & openly confessed a great eversighte, and much folly in your former doings, for that in the late time of your unruly government ye had hewn down the boughs, & left the Stock standing still. God's Secret Providence, M. harding, breathed against you, and confounded your doings. Power only ye lacked: but good will ye lacked none.   

M. harding.  
For answer to all this, ye join yourselves with Christ and his Apostles, as though ye were guilty herein no more, than they. Presumptuously said. But the matter is not so answered. And yet ye run at large in that common place, and very vainly, or rather lucifer-like, compare yourselves with the Apostles. But Sirs, stay here, run no farther. Ye are soon stopped. The case is not like pardie. These be but your words. In the Apostles was the Truth in deed, so was it in the Holy Prophets, and those first Blessed men of the Church. The Truth ye boast and crack so much of, is not that Truth. Talk less like Rhetoricians, and prove us that ye have Truth, like honest men. And then talk on: But that can ye never do, so long as ye remain out of the Church, and enemies to the Church. 
* O vain bravery.  But what spend I words in vain? Your hearts be hardened, your Eyes be blinded, your Ears be stopped.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here is profound stuff, M. harding, for a Doctor of Divinity. To answer you with your own vain words, in deed ye spend your words in vain.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 2.  
Forty years ago, and upward, it was an easy thing for them to devise against us these accursed speeches, & other too, soarer then these: when in the midst of the darkness of that age, first began to springe, and to give shine some one glimmering beam of Truth, unknown at that time, and unheard of: when also Martin Luther, and Hulderike Zwinglius, being most excellent men, even sent of God, to give light to the whole world, first came unto the knowledge, and preaching of the Gospel: when as yet the thing was but new, and the success thereof uncertain: and when men's minds stood doubtful and amazed, and their ears open to all slanderous tales: and when there could be imagined against us no fact so detestable, but the people than would soon believe it, for the novelty and strangeness of the matter. For so did Symmachus, so did Celsus, so did julianus, so did Porphyrius the old foes to the Gospel, attempt in times past to accuse all Christians of Sedition and Treason, before that either Prince, or people were able to know, who those Christians were, what they professed, what they believed, or what was their meaning.  

M. harding.  
As ye run forth your race, and with lying amplification boast and brag of the Truth of your Doctrine, and of the innocency of your demeanour, ye fall into a great inconvenience and oversight. Was the light extinguished in all Israel, till that lewd Friere came, and Zwinglius 
‡ Untruth, malicious, and slanderous. For Zainglius was a Godly Preacher, and no Rutter.  the swart Rutter? Shall we now change the old song of Micheas the Prophet. Out of Zion shall come the Law, 
Miche. 4.  and the word of our Lord from jerusalem, and sing a new Song, Out of 
* This Blasphemy toucheth God's Providence. For why not a, well from Wittenberg, as from Rome?  Wittenberg is come the Gospel, and the word of the Lord from Zurich, and Geneva? If Luther and Zwinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel, 
Wittenberg. Church Invisible.  what meant Christ to break his promise, who said, I will be with you all days till the end of the world?  
Again how forgot ye the old proverb, a liar it behoveth to be mindful? Remember ye not how this is 
* Untruth fond, and childish.  contrary to all your own Doctrine? For say ye not other where's, that God had always his number of the elect, and his invisible Church? Therefore this must ye recant and call back again, or else shall ye pull all the rabble of sundry your own sects upon your shoulders, whose filthy railings, 
This is M. hardings sobriety  and vile upbraidings poor souls ye shall never be able to abide.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It is not worth the while, to answer him, that saith nothing. Zion, from whence ye say, the Law of God issued first, was in those days, as much disdained of you Fathers, 
Origen. Contr● Celsum. Lib. 1.  as is this day of your Geneva, or Wittenberg. Origen saith of Celsus the Heathen, Christianum Dogma affirmat à Barbaris cepisse ortum, hoc est, à judaeis: He saith, that the Christian Faith took her first beginning from Barbarous people, 
Cicero. De Provin. Consul.  that is to say, from the jews. Cicero saith, judaei, & Sylli, Gentes natae seruituti: The jews, and Syrians, Nations borne to Bondage.  
And Chrysostom, 
Chrysost. Contra Gentes.  speaking of julianus the Renegade, saith thus, Galilaeos nos, pro Christianis, in Edictis suis appellavit: In his proclamations, in the steed of Christians, he called us scornfully Galileans: Noting thereby the vileness of the place, from whence the Gospel of Christ first proceeded. But Nazianzene saith, Honora paruam Bethleem, 
Nazianzen. De Natali Christi. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  quae te induxit in Paradisum: (Despise not, but rather) Honour that little Bethleem, that hath leadde thee into Paradise.  
The sound of this simple, Barbarous, despised people was heard throughout the whole world. God causeth his Light to shine out of the Dark: His Holy Spirit breatheth, where he thinketh good: He hath no regard of persons, or choice of places, 
Psal. 18.  
3. Actor.  but, as S. Peter said unto Cornelius, In every Nation, who so ever feareth him, 
johan. 10  and worketh righteousness, is accepted before him. God chooseth the weak things of the world, to confound the strong. God's Holy Name be blessed, that of so little, and so simple a despised Mustard seed, 
Matth. 13.  hath now raised up so great a tree: & triumpheth the Gospel of Christ his Son in every place throughout the world. 
1. Cor. 1.   
What meant Christ, say you, to break his promiss? Nay, what meant you, M. harding, so shamefully to break Christ's Commandment, and yet to charge him with his promiss? God is true in all his promises, and shall prevail, when he is so lewdly judged. There is no fault in God, or his Christ: The fault is in you, that have made of the House of God, a Cave of thieves. Christ never made any such special promiss unto the Pope, that what so ever it should please him to say, or do, he should never err, or do amiss. Ye presume over much of God's Promises. Nay, though antichrist should be Pope, yet should Christ's promises be true still.  
It is true, that God hath always a Church Invisible, and a number of Elect, known only to himself alone. Neither is this our only saying. S. Paul also saith the same: 
2. Tim. 2.  Firmum stat Fundamentum Dei, habens hoc sigillum, Novit Dominus, qui sint sui: This foundation standeth sound, and firm, hevinge this Seal, The Lord knoweth, who be his own. Elias thought, all the Godly in Israel had been slain: and not one left alive. But God said unto him, I have soved unto myself seven thousand men, 
1. Reg. 19  that never bowed their knee before Baal. 
Rom. 11.   
God knew them: but Elias knew them not. To the judgement of man, they were invisible. 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 45.  Therefore S. Augustine saith, Secundum occultam Dei Praedestinationem, plurimae sunt foris Oues: plurimi Lupi intùs. Novit enim, ac signatos habet, qui nec eum, nec se norunt: according to God's Secret Predestination, there be many Sheep without the Church: and many wolves within the Church. For he knoweth them, and hath them marked, that know neither themselves, nor God neither.  
Thus the number of God's Elect, yea before the coming of Christ, in the time of darkness, was evermore certain: yet afterward the knowledge of the Gospel, by the Mouths of the Apostles, was abundantly carried abroad into the ends of all the world.  
Both these parts, M. Harding, may stand well together: and are nothing contrary to our Doctrine. Be the number of the Faithful more, or less, yet the Truth of God is one for ever.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 1.  
But now, sithence our very enemies do see, and cannot deny, but we ever in all our words, and writings have diligently put the people in mind of their duty, to obey their Princes, and Magistrates, yea though they be wicked, (For this doth very trial and experience sufficiently teach, and all men's eyes, who so ever, and where so ever they be, do well see, and witness for us) it was a foul part of them to charge us with these things: and, seeing they could find no new and late faults, therefore to seek to procure us envy only with stolen & outworn lies. We give our Lord God thanks, whose only cause this is, there hath yet at no time been any such example in all the Realms, Dominions, & Common Weals, which have received the Gospel. For we have overthrown no Kingdom: We have decayed no man's Power, or right: We have disordered no Common Wealth. There continue in their own accustomed state, and Ancient Dignity, the Kings of our country of England, the kings of Denmark, the Kings of Suecia, the Dukes of Saxony, the Counties Palatine, the Marquesses of Brandeburgh, the Lantsgraves' of Hessia, the Common Wealths of the Helvetians, & Rhetians, & the Free Cities, as Argentine, Basile, Frankford, Vlme, Augusta, & Norenberg, do all, I say, abide in the same Authority, and estate, wherein they have been heretofore: or rather in a much better, for that by means of the Gospel they have their people more obedient unto them. Let them go, I pray you, into those places, where at this present, through God's goodness, and Mercy, the Gospel is taught. Where is there more Majesty? Where is there less Arrogancy and Tyranny? Where is the Prince more honoured? Where be the people less unruly? Where hath there at any time either the Common Wealth, or the Church been in more quiet? Perhaps, ye will say, from the first beginning of this Doctrine, the Common sort everywhere began to rage, and to rise throughout Germany. Allow it were so: yet Martin Luther, the publisher, and setter forward of this Doctrine, did write marvelous vehemently and sharply against them, and reclaimed them home to peace, and obedience.  

M. harding.  
Your impudency of lying hath no measure nor end. But we will say little here, having said enough already in reproof of your falsehood. 
Civil Magistrate.  We leave you to the wide world, who seeth, and almost feeleth your lies.  
But I marvel not a little, that in this place specially, where ye speak of the good order, that your Gospel breedeth, ye be not ashamed to make mention of Martin Luther. Good God how much could we, if we were so disposed, allege out of his seditious and Heretical books by him 
* Untruth malicious, and slanderous. Read the Answer.  written against the Power of lawful magistrates? 
In libro de Saeculari potestate.  At this time let one place suffice for all Luther's words be these. Inter Christianos nullus neque potest, neque debet esse magistratus, sed etc. Among Christian men none can nor aught to be a magistrate, but each one is to other equally subject: After the Apostles saying, 
Luther admitteth no civil Magistrate.  thinking all others better than yourselves, etc. Again, Be ye humble all one to an other. Whereto Christ accordeth when he saith, When thou art called to the marriage feast, go, and sit down lowest of al. Among Christian men, none is superior save one, and only Christ. And what superiority or magistrate can be there, where all be equal, and have right, power, riches, and honour all alike? Furthermore, none coveteth to be over other, but all willbe under one another. Where such men be, though one would, yet can he not make a magistrare to bear rule over others, sith that nature suffereth not to have superiors, where no man will, nor may be a superior. And where such kind of men is, there be they not christian men, after the true sort of Christian men. This far Martin Luther.  
He persuaded them to peace, when there was scarcely any left, that could bear a club. first he 
‡ Nothing else, but mere Untruth. For Luther called him the preacher of Satan.  stirred up his Disciple, Thomas Munzer in Thuringia, who was the rebels preacher. After that he excused him of seditious preaching to the Duke of Saxony Prince elector, trusting, if Munzer were let alone, the matter should well go forward.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
To dissemble the rest of your Untruths, and your immoderate and uncivil bitterness, M. harding, proceeding from the unquiet, and unsavoury humours of your heart: where ye say, Doctor Luther admitteth no Civil Magistrate, & note the same so specially in your margin, I marvel much, that your paper blushed not in your behalf. Read his Books throughout, and consider the quiet government, both of the Common Wealths, and also of the Churches of Germany: and ye shall find, that noman ever, neither by word, nor by example more advanced the Authority of the Civil Magistrate. To leave all other his notable Sentences to this purpose, against the Rebels, of whom ye speak, being then in the field against their Lords, he wrote thus: God commandeth all men universally to obey the Magistrate with fear, 
johan. Sleidanus Lib. 5.  and reverence, etc. Again, Ye take the Sword, and withstand the Magistrate, whom God hath appointed. Is not this rashly to abuse the Name of God?  
But he saith, among Christians neither may be, nor aught to be any Magistrate. O M. harding, nothing could have found fault herewith, but only intemperate, and mere malice. For Luther speaketh not these words of the outward Civil Government, but only of our Inward Band, and Obedience towards God. And in this respect, there is no King, or Prince in deed, nor may be any. In this sense S. Paul saith, There is no lewe, there is no Gentile: There is no Lord, 
Galat. 3.  there is no Servant: There is no Man, there is no Woman: 
Coloss. 3.  For all you are one in Christ Jesus. S. Paul denieth not, but jew, Gentile, Lord, Servant, Man, and Woman, remain still in their several states, and kinds, as they were before. But in Christ jesus, he saith, there is no regard of any such difference. In Civil Government a King is a King, and so hath God commanded him to be known. But after that we be once come to the reverence, and obedience of God's will, there God only is the King: & the King, be he never so mighty, is but a Subject. So saith S. Ambrose to the Emperor Valenti●●ian, Noli te extollere, 
Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 33.  Imperator: Sed, si vis diutiùs Imperare, esto Deo subditus. Scriptum est, 
Civil Magistrate.  Quae Dei, Deo: quae Caesaris. Caesari: O my Lord, advance not yourself: But if ye will remain long in empire, be subject unto God. It is written, give to God, that belongeth to God: give to Caesar, that belongeth to Caesar.  
So saith the Emperor Valentinian the Elder of himself, 
Sozom. li. 6. ca 7.  Ego sum in sort plebis: I am (in this respect) as one of the people. To like purpose julius Caesar, being an Heathen Prince, said sommetime of himself at Rome in the Council house, 
Dion Lib. 43. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sozom. li. 5. ca 16  Equidem ad alia omnia, quae pro vobis gerenda sunt, & Consul sum, & Dictator: quod autem ad iniuriam cuiquam faciendum attinet, sum privatus: touching all other affairs, that aught to be taken in hand for your sake, I am both your Consul, and your Dictator: But as touching any wrong to be done to any man, I am as a private man, without office. So said the Heathen Renegade julianus the Emperor, Principes, ubi ad limen Delubri venerint, perinde sunt, atque Privati: When the Princes, and Magistrates once come within the entry of the Temple, they are none other, but as Private men. And this is all that traitorous, and horrible judgement, that, as it pleaseth you to say, Luther had of the Civil Magistrate.  
Where ye say, he stirred up his Disciple Thomas Munzer in Thuringia, to be the preacher to the Rebels, it is no strange matter, to see your tongue to run riot. Luther himself writing thereof unto the Rebels, saith thus, Satanas sub evangelii praetextu, 
johan. Sleidanus Lib. 5.  multos hoc tempore seditiosos, & planè sanguinarios Doctores excitavit: Satan under the pretence of the Gospel, hath stirred up in these days many seditious, and Bloody Doctors: Meaning thereby Munzer, and other like his companions.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 2.  
But, whereas it is wont sommetime to be objected by persons wanting skill, touching the Helvetians change of state, and killing of Leopoldus the Duke of Austria, and restoring by force their Country to liberty, all that was done, as appeareth plainly by all Stories, for two hundred and threescore years paste, or above, in the time of Pope Boniface the Eight, when the Authority of the Bishop of Rome was in greatest jollity, about two hundred years before Huldericus Zuinglius, either began to teach the Gospel, or yet was borne. And ever sithence that time, they have had all things still and quite, not only from foreign Enemies, but also from all civil dissension. And if it were a sin in the Helvetians, to deliver their own Country from foreign government, specially when they were so proudly and tyrannously oppressed, yet to burden us with other men's faults, or them with the faults of their Forefathers, it is against all right and reason.  

M. harding.  
Now your spirit is not content with that ye have railed already against the Pope, and Holy Church, but it moveth you again to rave and cry out. But whether with more malice or reason, let us indifferently consider.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 1.  
But O immortal God, and will the Bishop of Rome accuse us of treason? Will he teach the People to obey & follow their Magistrates? Or hath he any regard at all of the Majesty of a Prince? Why doth he then, as none of the old Bishops of Rome ever did, 
Augustin. Steuchus.  suffer himself to be called of his flatterers, Lord of Lords, as though he would have all Kings and Princes, who, and what so ever they be, to be his underlings? Why doth he vaunt himself to be King of Kings, 
Antonius de Rosellis.  and to have kingly Royalty over his Subjects? Why compelleth he all Emperors, and Princes to swear to him fealty, and true obedience? Why doth he boast, that the emperors Majesty is a thousandfolde inferior to him: 
De Maior & Obedien. Solitae. De Maior. & obedien. unam Sanctam. in sexto.  & that for this reason specially, because God hath made two lights in Heaven: and because Heaven and Earth were created, not in two Beginnings, but in one? Why hath he, and his fellows (like anabaptists and Libertines, to the end they might run on more licenceously and carelessy) shaken of the yoke, & exempted themselves from being under all Civil Power? Why hath he his Legates (asmuch to say, as most subtle spies) lying in wait in all kings Courts, Councils, and Privy chambers? Why doth he, when he list, set the Christian Princes one against an other, and at his own pleasure trouble the whole world with debate and discord? Why doth he Excommunicate, and command to be taken as a Heathen and a Pagan, any Christian Prince, that renounceth his Authority? and why promiseth he his Indulgences and his Pardons largely to any, that will (what way so ever it be) kill any of his enemies? doth he maintain Empires, and kingdoms? Or doth he once desire, that common quiet should be provided for? You must pardon us, good Reader, though we seem to utter these things more bitterly and bitingly, than it becometh Divines to do. For both the shamefulness of the matter, and also the desire of rule in the Bishop of Rome is so exceeding, and outrageous, that it could not well be uttered with other words, or more mildly. 
Clemens. 5. In Concil. Viennen. Leo papa. 3.  For he is not ashamed to say in open assembly, that all jurisdiction of all Kings dependeth of himself. And to feed his Ambition, and greediness of rule, he hath pulled in pieces the empire of Rome, and vexed and rend whole Christendom asunder: Falsely and traitorously also did he release the Romans, the Italians, and himself too, of the oath, whereby they, and he were straightly bound to be true to the Emperor of Graecia, and stirred up the same Emperors Subjects to forsake him: and calling Carolus Magnus out of France into Italy, made him Emperor: such a thing, 
Zacharias pp.  as never was seen before. He put Chilpericus the French King, being no evil Prince, beside his Realm, only because he fancied him not, & wrongfully placed Pipine in his room. Again, after he had cast out King Philip, if he could have brought it so to pass, he had determined and appointed the Kingdom of France to Albertus the King of Romans. He utterly destroyed the state of the most flourishing City, and Common Weal of Florence, his own native Country, 
Clemens. ●.  and brought it out of a free, & peaceable state, to be governed at the pleasure of one man: 
Idem Clemens.  he brought to pass by his procurement, that whole Savoy on the one side was miserably spoiled by the Emperor Charles the fifth, and on the other side by the French King, so that the poor unfortunate Duke had scant one City left him, to hide his head in.  

M. harding.  
It is a great eye sore to the Ministers of antichrist, to see the Vicar of Christ above Lords and Kings of this world: to see Princes and emperors promise and swear obedience unto him. But they that are the faithful subjects of the Church of God, think it no absurdity, that the Shepherd be set●, not only above the Lambs and Ewes of the Church, but also above the Weathers and Rams themselves. It is a very great folly for them to find fault with the superiority of the Bishop of Rome, who can never prove, that he is not the Vicar of Christ. 
Matth. 16.  If he were not his Vicar, yet being a Bishop he is above any temporal Prince 
‡ So is every Simple Priest.  concerning his Priestly office. But sith Christ said to Peter, Upon this rock I will build my Church, and hell gates shall not prevail against it, 
* A little wit had been better, than all this so great a do.  Bark until your bellies break, ye that be the helhowndes of Luther's and Zuinglius litour, or rather of Satan's your and their chief master, shall not prevail against the apostolic see of Peter. It hath withstanded all Devils and Heretics a thousand five hundred years: and think ye that yourselves be stronger than Arius? It grieveth you, that the Pope is higher than the Emperor, not for any love ye bear to the Emperor, nor for hatred that ye have to the Pope's person, whom ye know not: but your quarrel is against Christ, whose person the Pope beareth. Or tell us, I pray you, doth he call himself any Princes or emperors vicegerent, and not rather the 
‡ So he calleth himself: But when did Christ ever call him so?  Vicar of Christ alone? Whom impugn ye then but Christ in his Vicar? 
Luke. 10.  Have ye not readen, qui vos spernit, me spernit: he that despiseth you, despiseth me? Ye thought the Pope had no better text for his primacy and supreme authority, them two lights, which God made in Heaven. But if malice had not blinded you, in the very same chapter of Innocentius the third, (from whence like a spider ye sucked that ye thought was worst) ye might have seen an other reason going before, 
Distin. 96. Duo. sunt.  where he said, Pontifex in Spiritualibus antecellit, quae tant● sunt temporalibus digniora, quant● anima praefertur corpori. The Bishop (said Innocentius) in spiritual matters passeth (the Emperor): which spiritual things are so much above the temporal, by how much the soul is preferred before the body. How like ye that reason? Within a little after Innocentius bringeth forth an other proof. Where it was said to jeremy the Prophet▪ who came 
* As if Hieremie had been a Pope.  of the priests race, 
Hierem. 1.  and was a Priest himself, 
‡ A very profound Reason. Read the Answer.  behold I have set thee over nations and Kingdoms, to the intent thou mayest pull up and scatter, and build, and plant.  
Then after that Innocentius had 
* By Natural Reason. O Natural Folly.  by natural reason and holy Scripture proved the highest Bishops superiority above Princes, he cometh in the third place not now to prove, but to make his former saying already proved more plain, by alluding to that is written in the beginning of Genesis. Where Moses declareth how God made two lights in the firmament of the Heaven, a greater, and a lesser.  
But this cannot sound in the ears of our new preachers. They would not have the guide of heavenly things above the guide of earthly cares. They love the Earth, the flesh, the world too well, to be of that mind, and therefore do ask, why the Popes of Rome like anabaptists and Libertines have shaken of the yoke, and exempted themselves from all civil power. What yoke mean ye? The yoke of infidels and paynims?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We are not the Ministers of antichrist, M. harding, but the witnesses of the Truth of Christ. He is antichrist, as S. Paul showeth you, that sitteth in the Temple of God, and avanceth himself above all that is called God. And, to speak more particularly of the matter, by S. Gregory's judgement, he is antichrist, 
Pope above Kings and Emperors.  or the Forerenner of antichrist, that calleth himself, The Universal Bishop: And vaunteth himself, as the King of Pride: And hath an Army of Priests prepared for him: And setteth himself, as Lucifer, above all his Brethren. Of him Cardinal Franciscus Zarabella saith thus, Papa facit, quicquid libet, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 30.  etiam illicita: & est plusquam Deus: The Pope doth, what him listeth, yea though it be unlawful: and is more than a God. This is antichrist, M. harding, 
Grego. Lib. 4. Epist. 38.  by the judgement of the wise, and godly: and the supporters of him, who so ever, 
Francis. Zarabel.  and where so ever they be, are the Ministers of antichrist.  
It is great Arrogancy, to advance a Bishop above a King: notwithstanding in some good meaning it may be true. So a judge, in knowledge of the Law: so a doctor of Physic, in his profession: so a Pilot, in knowledge of the Sea, and guiding of a ship: so a Captain, in Martial affairs is above any King: And it behoveth a King, be he never so wise, or Mighty, in every of these several faculties, to be guided by them. And thus is the King inferior, not only to a Bishop, as you say, but also to every Inferior Priest.  
So S. Chrysostom saith of Christ's Apostles: 
Chrys. in Psal. 44  Omnem Terrarum Orbem pervaserunt, & omnibus principibus fuerunt magis propriè Principes, Regibus potentiores: The Apostles roaved over the whole world, and were more Princelike in deed, than the Princes themselves, and more puissant, and mighty, than the Kings.  
So said the Emperor Valentinian unto the people of Milan, 
Theodoretus, Lib. 4. Cap. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Eum collocate in Pontificali Solio, cui nos quoque Moderatores Imperij, nostra Capita submittamus: Place ye such a man in the bishops Chair, unto whom we ourselves, that goveine the empire, may stoop our Head.  
For the Prince is bound to the Obedience of God's Word, no less, then if he were a private Subject. And if he refuse to hear, and to reverence the same, as the declaration of God's Holy Will, he is accursed. But what is this, M. harding, to your purpose? Would you therefore that the King should swear his Obedience unto the Bishop?  
In this respect, by your own Learning, any Simple Priest may well be above the Pope. So saith your own doctor Panormitane, Papa tenetur Confiteri: & in eo actu Sacerdos est Maior illo: The Pope is bound to Confess himself: And in that act of Confession, 
Extra. De Poeniten. & remiss. Omnis utriusque Abbas.  the Priest is above him. And again, Papa non potest cogere Sacerdotem, ut revelet Confessionem: quia in illo actu Sacerdos est Maior, quàm Papa: The Pope cannot compel a Priest, to open that hath been said unto him in Confession. For in that Act, the Priest is greater than the Pope. Yet, I trow, ye would not therefore, the Pope should swear Obedience to a Priest.  
This therefore, M. harding, it is, that grieveth us, to see the poor Stool of Humility, whereon S. Peter sat, blown up now into a Mount of Pride: and the Pope to require Homage, and Fealty of Kings, and Emperors, as of his Subjects. It grieveth us to see you, and others your fellows, in respect of the Pope, so much, not only to abase, but also vilely to abuse the Majesty of them, unto whom Christ, and his Apostles were always obedient. Remember, what one of yours hath written, and published to the world in this behalf. Stanislaus Orichonius saith thus, 
Stanislaus Orichonius in Chimaera, Fol. 97.  Tantùm Sacerdos praestat Regi, quantùm homo praestat bestiae: Quantùm Deus praestat Sacerdoti, tantùm Sacerdos praestat Regi. Qui Regem anteponit Sacerdoti, is anteponit Creaturam Creatori: A Priest is so much above a King, as a Man is above a Beast: As much as God is better than the Priest, so much is the Priest better, than a King. He that setteth the King before a Priest, setteth the Creature before the creature.  
It grieveth us, 
Pope above Kings and Emperors.  to see S. Gregory's words, by S. Gregory's Successors, so proudly broken. For thus he wrote, well-near a thousand years sithence, unto the Emperor Mauritius, against john the Bishop of Constantinople, claiming then the same Universal Authority, that is now usurped by the Pope: 
Gregor. Li. 4. Epist. 32.  Ille coercendes est, qui Sanctae universali Ecclesiae iniuriam facit: qui cord tumet: qui gaudere de Nomine Singularitatis appetit: qui Honori quoque Imperij vestri se per privatum vocabulum superponit: Your Majesty must repress him, that do the this wrong unto the Holy Universal Church: that swelleth in heart: that desireth to enjoy a Name of Singularity: that also, by a private Title, (calling himself the Universal Bishop) placeth himself over and above the Honour of your empire.  
touching the knowledge of God's word, and cases of Religion, certain it is, the King is inferior to a Bishop. But if the Bishop be negligent, and do not his office: or, if he be wilful, and do it not rightly: or, if he be ignorant, and cannot do it: Then is the Bishop under the Prince, Subject to his check, and by him may be punished. So writeth the Emperor Constantinus unto the people of Nicomedia: 
Theodoretus, Lib. 1. Cap. 19  Si quis Episcoporum in consultè tumultuatus sit, Ministri Dei, hoc est, mea executione, illius audacia coercebitur: If any Bishop unadvisedly work trouble, his boldness shallbe repressed by the Order of God's Minister, that is to say, 
Roma. 13.  by my execution. Therefore S. Paul saith, Let every soul be Subject to the Higher Powers. Whereunto S. Chrysostom addeth these words: Etiamsi Apostolus sis, 
Chrysost. ad Roman. Homil. 23.  etiamsi evangelista, etiamsi Propheta, sive quisquis tandem fueris. Neque enim Pietatem subvertit ista subiectio: Although thou be an Apostle, although thou be an evangelist, although thou be a Prophet, or what one so ever thou be (yet be thou Subject to the Higher Powers). For Godliness is not hindered by such subjection.  
Your quarrel, ye say, is against Christ: For his person the Pope beareth. Have ye not readen, He that despiseth you, despiseth me? Tell us, I pray you, say you, doth the Pope call himself any Princes or emperors Vicegerent, and not rather the Vicar of Christ alone?  
It forceth not greatly, by what title the Pope list to claim. He cannot lightly want Authority, while he may pen his own Commission. I trows, we may say of him, as Cicero said sommetime of one in Rome, Asinius Senator Voluntarius, Lectus ipse àse: Asinius is a very willing Senator, himself appointed and chosen by himself. 
2. Thess. 2.  Verily, antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God, even in the place of Christ, and bear himself as Christ's Vicar.  
How be it, Let the Pope do the duty of a Bishop: Let him Exhort: Let him Preach: Let him dispense God's Mysteries: Let him fulfil his Office: Let him do the part of an evangelist: And we will love him, and reverence him, although not, as Christ's Vicar General, yet at least, as a Bishop. Otherwise we must say unto him, as S. Gregory said sommetime to Cyriacus the Bishop of Constantinople, 
Gregor. Lib. 6. Epist. 28.  Omnes Magnos esse, & Honorabiles cupio, quorum tamen Honor Honori Omnipotentis Dei non detrahat. Nam quisquis se contra Deum Honorari appetit, mihi Honorabilis non est: I wish that all men should be great, and honourable: so that their honour be not prejudicial to the honour of Almighty God. For who so ever shall desire himself to be honoured against God, shall not be honourable unto me.  
One high & worthy Reason we alleged out of your Pope Innocentius the third: The Son is higher, and greater, than the Moon: Ergo, the Pope is higher, 
De Maior. & Obedien. Solita. Carion. in Inno●en. 3.  and greater, than the Emperor. This Pope Innocentius is he, that said, Either he would lose his Mitre, or else he would pull the Emperor Philip's Imperial Crown from his Head.  
Malice. ye say, 
Pope above Kings and Emperors.  blinded us: otherwise we might have seen other his more substantial, and better Reasons. So were it needful, M. harding: for certainly this Reason is very simple. But the best of his Reasons, ye can find, is this:  

The Soul is above the Body,  
Ergo, The Pope is above the Emperor.   
And how like ye this Reason? say you. verily, as a Reason without sense, or Reason: such as be many of your making. By the like Reason you may say,  

The Cook is always about the Fire:  
The Fire is the highest of all Elements:  
Ergo, of all Sciences the Cook's occupation is the highest.   
By the same Reason ye may prove, that the highest Emperor is Subjects, not only to the Pope, but also to every simple Priest. Yea further, of the same Reason there must needs follow a great inconvenience: That the Pope himself, for as much as he Ministereth Sacraments, Teacheth, Exhorteth, and occupieth himself in Spiritual affairs least of all others, is therefore the lowest, and basest of all his clergy.  
Now, M. harding, I beseech you, consider the weight, and drift of your own Reason.  
The Pope's Charge is Spiritual, say you.  
Ergo, the Emperor is bound to sv veare obedience to the Pope. By what Reason may this Reason be proved? verily by the same good Reason ye may say, Every priests Charge is Spiritual:  
Ergo, the king is bound to swear obedience to every Priest. Yet by such proper Reasons the Pope hath avanced himself above all the states, and Princes of the World.  
But your Holy Father Innocentius, lest he should seem to want Scriptures, for proof hereof allegeth also the words of God, spoken unto the Prophet Hieremie: 
Hierem. 1.  Behold I have set thee over Nations, and kingdoms, to the intent, that thou mayst pull up, and scatter, and build, and plant. Ergo, saith he, the Emperor is Subject unto the Pope. These proofs, ye say, Our Defenders could not find. Further, ye say, in your sober manner, When will you forsake the School of Lying? Truly if there be any such School, M. harding, you may claim of good right to be the Master. We are as far from lying, as you are from saying the Truth.  
But what make these words of Hieremie for the Bishop of Rome? Will ye say, that the Prophet Hieremie was the Pope? Or, that the King than was sworn to be subject, and loyal unto him? What King, or Prince did Hieremie subdue? What People or Country ever did he overthrow? One of your own Doctors saith, 
Heruaeus de Potesta. Papa, ca 13  Hieremias nullum Regem deposuit. Sed intelligitur positus supra Centes, & Regna, quasi habens Authoritatem super ea in annuntiando, & praedicando Vera. Non de destructione Regum Mundi, sed de destructione Vitiorum, & plantatione Fidei, & morum. 
1. Cor. 3.  Vt illud Pauli, Dei aedificatio estis: Dei Agricultura estis: Hieremie deposed no King. But we understand, that he was placed over Nations, and kingdoms, as having Authority over the same, in opening, and preaching of the Truth. He speaketh none of the overthrowing of the kingdoms of the World, but of the overthrowing of vices, and of the planting of Faith, and manners. In this sense S. Paul saith to the Corinthians, Ye are Gods building: Ye are God's tillage.  
The very Gloze itself saith, Vt evellas Regnum Satanae: ut plants bona: ut aedifices Ecclesiam: I have placed thee, to root up (not the kingdoms of the world, nor the states of Common Weals, but) the Kingdom of Satan: to plant good things: to build up the Church. His whole Commission was limited with these words, Posui Verbum meum in Ore tuo: 
Hierem. 1.  I have put my Word in thy Mouth.  
Such Authority had Elias over King Achab. And therefore he said unto him, 
Pope above Kings and Emperors.  It is not I, that trouble Israel, but thou, and thy Father's house. Such Authority had john the baptist over King Herode: and therefore he said unto him, It is not lawful for thee, to have thy Brother's Wife.  
If it be true, 
3. Reg. 18.  that ye would seem to say, that the Pope's Superiority standet only in things Spiritual, wherefore then doth Pope Nicolas say, Christus Beato Petro Terreni simul, 
Dist. 22. Mediolanensis.  & Coelestis Imperij Iura commisit? Christ bath given to Blessed Peter, the Right as well of the worldly, as also of the Heavenly empire. Wherefore then did Pope Adrian thus write unto the Emperor Fredericus: Romae nostra Sedes est: 
Aventinus in Adrian. 4. Anno. 1154.  Imperatoris est A quis in Arduenna, quae est Sylua Galliae. Imperator quod habet, totum habet à nobis. Sicut Zacharias transtulit Imperium à Graecis ad Teutonicos, ita nos possumus illud transferre ab Alemannis ad Graecos. Ecce in potestare nostra est, ut demus illud, cui volumus. proptereà constituti sumus à Deo super Gentes, & Regna, ut destruamus, & evellamus, & aedificemus, & plantemus: My Seat is in the City of Rome: The emperors Seat is at Acon in Ardenne, which is a forest in France. What so ever the Emperor hath, he hath it of us. As Pope Zacharias translated the empire from Graecia into Germany, so may we again translate the same from the Germans to the Greeks. Behold, it is in our power, to bestow the empire upon who we list. Therefore are we appointed by God over Nations, and Kingdoms, to pull down, to root up, to build, and to plant again. This Authority, I trow, reacheth somewhat further, then only to causes Spiritual. One of your own Doctors saith, 
Heruaeus de Potesta. Papae. ca 12  Magis esset acceptum Deo, quòd per Solum pontificem Mundus in Omnibus regeretur: It were more acceptable unto God, that the world in All Matters (both Spiritual, and Temporal) were governed only by the Pope.  
That Innocentius addeth, of the Son and the Moon, ye say, is not a Reason, but a Similitude. This thing may easily be granted. For in deed it is a Similitude utterly void of either Wit, or Reason. But who taught the Pope, so childishly to play with Similitudes, thereby to advance himself, and to abase the empire of the world? Who told him, that the Pope is the Son, and the Emperor the Moon? Or, that the Emperor is so far inferior to the Pope, as the Moon is inferior to the Son? Isidorus, that lived six hundred years before Pope Innocentius, 
In Glossa in Gene. Cap. 1. Heruaeus de Potesta Papae. ca 13.  saith quite contrary, Per Solem intelligitur Regnum, & per Lunam intelligitur Sacerdotium: By the Son we understand the Kingdom: and by the Moon we understand the Priesthood: Whereby he giveth us to consider, contrary to the judgement of your good Father Pope Innocentius, that, as the Moon is inferior to the Son, so is the Pope inferior to the Emperor.   

M. harding.  
But when Constantine was baptized, he gave place to 
* Untruth, fond, and peevish. For Sylvester was dead long before Constantinus was Christened.  S. Sylvester then Bishop of Rome, and to all other Successors of S. Peter. O how that irketh your harries, that so great an Emperor, and the first that openly professed Christianity, should by the same Holy Ghost, who called him to the Faith of Christ, be made to 
‡ Untruth too vain for a Child. Why should M. Har. be so vain? There is not one true word in all this talc.  depart from the City, which ruled the world, and to yield his own Palace partly a Church to our Saviour Christ, partly a dwelling house for the Bishops of Rome? Ask of Constantine, why he submitted his neck to S. Sylvester. We have cause to think, that Constantius the heretic, son of Constantine, was not very glad of his Father's doing. And yet God suffered him not to return and dwell at Rome but to leave that City free to the Rulers of the Church.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Constantine, ye say, gave over the City of Rome, and all the west part of the empire to the Pope, and to his Successors for ever. And this thing erye say, 
The Donation of Constantine.  irketh our hearts full soar. Yea verily, M. harding, it irketh us much in your behalf, to see you, a man of wisdom, and Learning, to warrant such follies without blushing. This whole Donation of Constantine, whereupon ye build the Pope's whole Kingdom, hath not show sufficient to mock a child. The effect, & sense thereof is this, that Constantinus the Emperor, the third day after he was Christened, in the honour of S. Peter, willingly left all the west part of the empire, and departed to Byzantium, which is now called Constantinople. to dwell in the east: & that he gave the whole Imperial, and Civil Dominion, not only of the City of Rome, but also of Italy, France, Spain, Arragone, Portugal, England, Germany, scotland, Ireland, Pole, Denmark, Sueden, and Hungary, to the Pope. This doubtless, being true, had been a toily liberal, 
Heruaeus de Potesta. Papae, ca 19  and a Princely gift. And one of your friends saith, Volunt aliqui, quòd ratione huius Doni, Summus Pontifex Imperator est: & quòd potest instituere, & destituere Reges, sicut Imperator: some say, that by mean of this gift, the Pope is an Emperor, and may set up, and pull down Kings, as an Emperor.  
But Pius Secundus, being himself afterward Bishop of Rome, saith, Dicta Palea, Constantinus, falsa est: The said Decree (named Constantinus, containing Constantine the emperors Donation, 
Pius in Dialog. Fol. 21.  or Chartar) is utterly false. So saith. Antoninus the archbishop of Florence, Valla, Volaterrane, Hieronymus Cathalanus, Otho Frisingensis, and others more. Of this Fable we shall have occasion to speak hereafter.  
Constantius the Heretic, son unto Constantinus, as you say, much misliked his Father's doing. Nai, M. harding, if Constantius were alive, he would rather find fault in your discretion, that report such Follies of his Father's doings. Where ye say, God suffered him not to return, and to dwell in Rome, it palleth the déepthe of your Divinity, to search up the causes, and secrets of God's sufferance. Although Constantius, being encumbered with dangerous wars, & great affairs, were forced to stay in other Countries, and could not have leisure to return to Rome, yet he still continued the Lord of Rome, as also did a great number of other Emperors, that followed after him. Therefore Pope Bonifacius thus wrote unto the Emperor Honorius: 
Dist. 97. Ecclesia.  Roma est Vrbs vestrae mansuetudinis: Rome is your majesties City. Likewise Pope Agatho writeth unto the Emperor Constantinus: 
In sexta Synodo Constan. Act. 4. In eadem Synodo Actione 1.  Haec est Vrbs Seruilis Maiestatis vestrae: This is your majesties bond City: And Constantinus the Emperor himself saith, Dono Archiepiscopo Antiquae nostrae Romae: To Donus the Arch bishop of our City of Old Rome.  
But what need more words? The case is so clear, ● that no man of learning can call it in question.  
Briefly, touching this fond Fable of Constantine's Donation, Cardinal Cusanus saith thus, 
Nicol. Cusanus de Donatione Constantini.  Donationem diligenter expendens, reperi in ipsamet Scriptura manifesta argumenta Confictionis, & Falsitatis: Diligently weighing this Donation of Constantine, I have found in the very penninge thereof manifest arguments of for ging and falshedde. These, M. harding, be the Records, and Presidents of most certain, and most ancient memory, that ye would have published unto the world. By such Monuments your Pope claimeth the right, and possession of the empire. And your friends marvel, that ye can defend such falshedde, and forgery, so well known, and so manifest, for very shame.   

M. harding.  
The Being of the Pope's Legates and Ambassadors in Princes Courts, is a thing no less convenient, than it is meet for him, that hath cure of many flocks of Sheep, to set his servants, as watchmen in every part, where sutcheflockes do feed.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In what steed these Legates stand the Church of God, 
Legates. Pardonnes.  it may appear by these few uttered thereof by Camotensis: 
Citatur ab Agrippa de vanita. Scientiar. Nicol. Machiavelli. in Historia.  Legati Papae ita debacchantur in Provincijs, acsi, ad flagellandum Ecclesiam, Satan egressus esset à facie Domini: The Pope's Legates do so rage in all Countries, as if Satan were gone out before the face of god, to scourge the Church. And Machiavelli saith, There have been few wars, or Commotions inflamed these many late years, but by the mean, and whispering of these Legates. What other Doctrine they teach, or what other good they do, it were hard to say. And therefore the Fathers in the Council of Aphrica refused utterly, to have any such Legates sent amongst them: For thus they writ unto the Pope, 
Concil. Aphrica. Cap. 105.  Vt aliqui, tanquam à tuae Sanctitatis latere, mittantur, nulla invenimus Patrum Synodo constitutum: That any Legates should be sent unto us, as from your holiness side, we find it not appointed by any Council of our Fathers. Again they say, Executores Clericos Vestros quibusque Pontentibus nolite mittere: ne fumosum se●culi typhum in Ecclesiam Christi videamur inducere: Send not your Clerks (or Cardinals) to put matters in execution, to any Noble man, or Mighty Prince: lest we seem to bring the smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ.   

M. harding.  

* Untruth. For they depend of the deceitfulness of man: & not of the power of God.  His indulgences and pardons depend upon the power of binding and loosing, which Christ gave to Peter and his successors. 
Matth. 16.  Ye must demand of Christ, 
‡ Untruth. For Christ never gave the Pope power to deal pardons.  why he gave that Power, and not be angry with his vicar for using the same.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O M. harding, what should you mean with all these Vanities? Are ye so fully bent, to grant no kind of error, neither in your Purgatories, nor in your Pardons, nor in your Stews? God give you Humility of heart: lest ye be an unfit vessel to receive Goddess Pardonne.   

M. harding.  
Ye find fault with Leo the third for making an Emperor in the West. I dare say it grieveth you. 
* Untruth, joined with open folly. For this was the only way to strengthen the Saracenes.  For if there had been none in the West, the Turk might have been our Emperor oer this, and to his Barbarous and wicked tyranny might have subdued this part of the world, specially Germany, as he hath subdued Grece, Asia, egypt, Syria, and all the east Church. Against which mischief the Vicar of Christ by his masters merciful warning with the Princes of the West made provision▪ and at the length planted the Empire in this order, we see it now in.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This policy, practised by the Pope, loosed the whole power of Christendom. For as the empire before, being united, and joined in one, was strong, and mighty, so being afterward divided into two, and the east part being sundered for the west, it became lame, and weak, and not able to help itself. By mean whereof a gate was opened, to receive the Turk into all these Christian Dominions, which now he holdeth, without resistance: who otherwise, the empire being one, and whole in itself, as it was before, could never have grown to such Power. All this was wrought by the Practice, and Policy of the Pope.  
notwithstanding, the Pope himself by this bargain lost nothing. Thereof Marsilius Patavinus writeth thus: 
Marsilius Pataninus.  Pipinus, Son unto Charles the French King, after he had conquered Aristulphus the King of Lombardy, took Ravenna, and all the five Cities of Romandiola, together with the emperors lieutenants Territory called Exarchatus, and gave all the same to the Pope. Pope Stevin finding himself well contented with these benefits, and seeing the weakness of the Greek Emperor, procured, that the empire should be translated from the Greeks unto the French, having utterly forgotten the benefits, 
The very true cause of the ●●uision of the empire. Platyna in Leone. 3.  that he had received of the Emperor: to the intent, that the Greeks being utterly oppressed, and the French little caring for these things, he alone might rule in Italy at his pleasure.  
touching Pope Leo the third, whose Providence, & Policy ye so much commend, the true report of the Story is this: The said Leo being by violence deprived of his Bishopric in Rome, fled for aid to Charles the French King, and by him was restored. In consideration of which benefit, he proclaimed Charles the Emperor of the west. Sithence which time, the empire of Christendom hath been divided, and weakened: the Pope enriched: and the Saracenes, and Turks above all measure increased.   

M. harding.  
If the Pope Zacharias deposed Childerike (for so I find him more commonly named) the King of France, only upon his own pleasure or displeasure, as ye say, and placed Pipine for him, can ye tell that story, and not see what a strength of authority is in that See, which is able with a word to place and displace the mightiest King in Europe? With a word I say, For I am sure ye can show us of no Army, that he sent to execute that his will. Is that the power of a man, trow ye, to appoint kingdoms? Can the Devil himself at his pleasure set up and depose Kings? No surely. 
‡ Untruth. For S. Gregory saith, Antichristus ipsas summas huius Saeculi potestates obtinebit.  And much less can any member of his do the same. Remember ye what Christ said, when the jews objected, that he did cast out Devils in the name of the Prince of Devils? 
* A new Sin against the Holy Ghost.  Beware ye Sin not against the Holy Ghost, who confess that the Pope hath pulled down and set up Kings. Which thing undoubtedly he could not do profitably and peaceably, but by the great Power of God. And yet did that line of Pipine and Charles the great, which the Pope did set up, 
‡ Untruth, easy to be seen. Read the Answer.  flourish above any other stock, that ye can name sense the inclination of the Roman Empire. Which in that transposed state of great a Kingdom, maketh no obscure argument of Heavenly approbation and Divine providence.  
Neither did the Pope Zacharias depose Childerike, because he fancied him not, as ye slander, but only consented to lose his Subjects from bond of oath made to him, at the general and most earnest request and suit of all the Nobility, and Commonalty of the whole Realm of France, finding him very unprofitable, and unmeet for the Kingdom, as one, who being of no wit, and therefore commonly named Stupidus, as much to say, a dolt, was altogether besides like a Sardanapalus, given wholly to belly cheer, and to filthy love of Women. Therefore in your own words ye confess a 
* A Divine Power in the Pope.  Divine power in the Pope, as by whom Cod directeth the wills of faithful Princes on the Earth. The more such examples ye bring, the worse ye make your cause. I would ●yer you to ease me of the labour of proving such a notable fact.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Pope Zacharias deposed Childericus, as you call him, or, as some other call him, Chilpericus, the French King. Therefore ye say, we must needs acknowledge a Divine Power in the Pope: seeing him able, by his word, to place, and displace the mightiest King in Europe. For can the Devil, say you, at his pleasure set up, and depose Kings?  
Verily, 
john. 12. 14. 16.  M. Harding, Christ himself calleth the Devil the Prince of this world: & therefore woe may imagine, he may do somewhat in the world. And the Devil, if ye wi●beleeue his word, when he had set Christ on high upon a Mount, & showed him all the kingdoms of the world, 
Depofinge of King  he said unto him, All these things will I give thee, 
Matthae. 4.  if thou wilt fall down, and worship me. This is that power, that S. john saith, 
Apocalyp. 17.  should be given to antichrist: Reges terrae vires, & potestatem suam tradent Bestiac: etc. ut consentiant, dentque Regnum suum Bestiae, donec compleantur Verba Dei: The Kings of the Barthe shall give their strength, and power unto the Beast, etc. that they may agree together, and give their Kingdom unto the Beast, until the Words of God be fulfilled. 
In eodem Cap.  Again he saith, Mulier ea, quam vidisti, est urbs illa Magna, quae habet Regnum super Reges terrae: The Woman, that thou sawest, is that Great City, that hath a Kingdom over the Kings of the World. And again he saith, 
Apocalyp. 13.  Data est illi Potestas in omnem Tribum, & Gentem: & adorabunt eam (Bestiam) omnes incolae terrae, quorum nomina non sunt scripta in Libro Vitae Agni: Power is given unto that Beast over every Tribe, and Language, and Nation: and all the dwellers of the Earth shall worship the same Beast, (which is antichrist) whose names be not written in the lambs Book of Life.  
S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. in Psalm. 9  Quia Antichristus ad tantum culmen inanis gloriae venturus creditur, tanta ei licebit facere, & in omnes homines, & in Sanctos Dei, ut nonnulli infirmi arbitrentur, Deum res humanas negligere: For that we believe, that antichrist shall come unto such a height of vain Glory, it shallbe lawful for him to do such things, both towards all men (Princes, and others) and also towards the Saints of God, that many weak men shall think, God hath forsaken the care of the world.  
Again he saith, 
August. in eundem. Psalm.  Ita traditur de Antichristo, quod omnes Reges superaturus sit, & solus Regnum obtenturus: Thus it is written of antichrist, that he shall conquer all Kings, and obtain the Kingdom himself alone.  
So saith S. Gregory, 
Gregor. in job. Ca 41. Lib. 33. Ca 22.  Antichristus veniens ipsas etiam summas huius Saeculi Potestates obtinebit: antichrist, when he shall come, shall conquer the highest Estates, and Powers of this world.  
And all this shall come to pass, as Chrysostom saith, by the Dissolution of the empire, whereof we have spoken before. These be his words, Donec Imprij illius timor fuerit, 
Chrysostom. In. 2. Thessaloni. 2. Homil. 4.  nemo Antichristo statim subdetur. Quando verò istud Imperium destructum fuerit, vacantem Imperij Principatum invadet, & tentabit ad se rapere & hominum, & Dei Imperium: As long as the empire shallbe had in awe, noman shall straightway submit himself to antichrist: But after that the empire shallbe dissolved, antichrist shall invade the state of the empire standing void: and shall labour to pull unto himself the empire both of Man, and God.  
This, 
Clemen. Lib. 2. De Appellationib. Pastoralis. Distin. 22. Omnes  I trow, it is, that the Pope proclaimeth himself the Heir apparent of all kingdoms: This it is, that Pope Nicolas saith, Christus Beato Petro, Aeternae vitae Clavigero, Terreni simul, & Coelestis imperij iura commisit: Christ hath committed unto Blessed Peter, the Keiebearer of everlasting life, the right both of the worldly, and also of the Heavenly empire: This is it, that some are so bold to say, 
In Sexto. Li. 3. Ti. 16. De Statu Regularium. Antonius de Rosellis. Aventinus in Adriano. 4.  Papa totius Mundi obtinet Principatum: The Pope hath the princehood of all the whole World: And that some others have said, Papa est Rex Regum, & Dominus Dominantium: The Pope is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords: And that Pope Adrian saith of himself, as it is alleged before, Imperator, quod habet, totum habet à nobis. Ecce in potestate nostra est, ut demus Imperium, cui volumus: What so ever the Emperor hath, he hath it of us. It is in our power to bestow the empire upon whom we list. This, M. harding, is that Divine Power, that, as you say, is given to the Pope. But as S. john, S. Augustine, S. Chrysostom, and S. Gregory say, the self same Divine Power is given also to antichrist. And therefore it is well noted in your own Gloze, Papa stupor Mundi: 
Clemen. in Pro●mi. In Glossa.  The Pope is the woonderment of the World: that is to say, the Pope maketh all the world Fools.  
But if it seem so great a matter, for a Pope to depose a King, I doubt not, but ye may well remember, that Emperors sometimes have deposed Popes. The Emperor Constantius (an Arian, 
Platyna in Liberio.  I grant, but yet an Emperor) deposed Pope Liberius: and afterward, restoring Liberius, deposed Pope Foelix. The Emperor Otho the first deposed Pope john. 13. The Emperor justinian deposed two Popes in order: 
2. Tomo. Conciliorum, In vita Syluerij, & Vigilij.  first Pope Syluerius, and afterward Pope Vigilius. And all this did they without levieinge of army, without raising of power, without disquiet, or trouble of the people. And a doctor of your own, seeming fully to determine the matter by a Book case, saith thus, Imperator, requisitus à Cardinalibus, 
Heruaeus De potest. Papae. ca 13.  debet procedere contra Papam: The Emperor, being required by the Cardinals, is bound to proceed (to deprivation) against the Pope. An other saith thus, Si quando Imperialis Legatus mitteretur à Principe, ut Romanus Pontifex proficisceretur Constantinopolim ad Imperatorem, 
Appendix Eutropij, in Syluerio.  omni neglecta occasione, ibat, etiamsi pro certo sciret, se iturum in exilium: If at any time the emperors ambassador had been sent from his Prince, to will the Pope to come to Constantinople to the Emperor, all occasions set apart, he went straight way, notwithstanding he certainly knew, he should be banished. Vrspergensis saith, Henricus Rex Italiam ingressus, 
Vrspergen. Anno. 1045.  tres Papas indign constitutos synodaliter deposuit: Henry the Emperor, coming into Italy, deposed three Popes unlawfully made, by order of Synod.  
Now, M. harding, if you, with your Rhetorical furniture, may cry out, O what a Divine Power had the Pope, that thus could depose a King: why may not we likewise say, O what a Divine Power had the Emperor, that thus could depose so many Popes?  
But, that ye may the better see this wonderful Divinity, and Heavenly power, wherewith ye would so feign enfeaffe the Pope, a witness of your own saith thus, 
Heruaeus De Potest. Papae, Ca 13.  Quod dicitur, Papam deposuisse Regem Francorun, & loco eius instituisse Pipinum, Glosa ordinaria exponit, Deposuit, id est, deponentibus consensit. Non enim legitur, quòd Papa Zacharias Regem Franciae deposuerit: Where as it is said, that the Pope deposed the French King, and placed Pipinus in his room, The Ordinary Gloze expoundeth it thus: He deposed him, that is to say, He consented to them, that did depose him. For we read not, that Pope Zacharie in deed ever deposed the French King.  
The truth of the Story is this, For as much as Chilpericus the King seemed void of Princely gravity, and had given himself over to pleasure, and wantonness, and Pipinus his Lord Marshal, a man full of Wisdom, and actiuttie, had the Government, and burden of all the Realm, the Nobles of France having agreed amongst themselves, to depose the one, and to set up the other, sent unto Pope Zacharie, as unto a wise man, to have his answer to this question, Whether were meeter to be King, 
Paulus Aemylius, Lib. 2. Gaguinus.  He that carried only the name, and did nothing: Or he, that bore the burden of the whole. The Pope was soon persuaded, to give sentence with Pipinus the Lord Marshal, against the King. Whereupon the King was shorn into an Abbey, & made a Monk: Pipinus avanced unto the state, gave the Pope the Exarchate, or princehood of Ravenna, in part of recompense of his good wil  
Whether the king having niene years ruled his Realm, were afterward deprived by right, or by wrong, I will not reason. Fasciculus Temporum saith, The kingdom was removed from the right Heirs.  
The Line of King Pipine endured, and flourished a long while: And that, ye say, was no obscure argument of Heavenly Approbation, and Divine Providence. By such Approbation, and Providence, the Turk may claim. For he hath both longer continued, and much more flourished, and increased his estate, than ever did the house of Pipine. 
Plutarch. in Catone Vticen.  But Cato was wont to say, Multum est caliginis in rebus Divinis: There is great darkness in God's matters.  
Yet lest any man of ignorance happen herein to be deceived, this was the very true descent, and floorishinge Fortune of King Pipines' race:  
The first thereof was Charles the Great: 
Benuenutus Imolensis in Augustali.  In his time, saith Benuenutus Imolensis, Laceratum est Imperium: The state of the empire was torn in sunder.  
The second was Ludovicus Pius: Against him his own Son Lotharius arose, 
Paulus Aemylius, Lib. 3.  and caused him to be shorn as a Monk, and to be thrust into an Abbey, and his own Mother the Empress to be made a Nun.  
The Thirds was Lotharius: He oppressed his own Brethren by violence: and afterward was deposed, and made a Monk.  
The fourth was Ludovicus. 2: He was unfortunate in all his doings: and was shamefully conquered by his Brother.  
The fifth was Ludovicus 3: 
Paul. Aemylius in Chronice.  Whom, for his doughty deeds, they commonly call Ludovicus Nihili: which is as much to say, as Lews Nobody.  
The Sixth was Carolus 2. named calvus: as Benuenutus saith, Vir lepore timidior: A man more fearful, and more cowardly, than a hare. He was shortly slain with poison.  
The seventh was Carolus 3: as Benuenutus saith, Vir deficiens & animo, & Corpore: A man wanting both strength of Body, and wisdom of Mind: that is to say, both a Coward, and a Foole.  
The Eighth was Arnulphus: 
Benuenutus Imolen. in Augustali.  He was eaten up with Life.  
The Nienthe was Ludovicus 3. by the report of Benuenutus, a man of no better Fortune than his Father. In him that house had an end. This is that Noble Pipines' race, 
Nihilo foelicior Patre. In eo defecit Imperium in Gente Carolorum.  M. harding, that could not so stand, and flourish, as you say, without special Heavenly Approbation, and Divine Providence.   

M. harding.  
Concerning that ye say of King Philip surnamed Le Bel, if we may believe Paulus AEmylius the best writer of the French Chronicles, the cause was such between Pope Bonifacius, and that King, that if he did not only excommunicate him, but also offered gift of his Kingdom to Albert the Emperor, as Platina your Author herein writeth: he may seem therein to have done 
* Not altogether so evil. A proper qualification.  not altogether so evil, as ye pretend. For, as both AEmilius and Platine do witness, the cause of their falling out was, that whereas the Pope being first sued unto by Cassanus a Christian Prince, and a great Conqueror in the east, to join with him for the recovery of the Holy land, sent the Bishop of Apamea to the French King for his necessary aid in that so common a quarrel of all Christendom: he being offended, either that the suit was not first made to him, either for that the said Bishop had done his Ambassade with she we of more Authority, than the King thought it became him. or upon some other private grudge, did not only utterly refuse to send any help toward the voyage, but also contemptuously, beside common order, and cruelly, committed the Pope's Legate to Prison, and there kept him, until such time, as through the Popes interdict, the King was compelled to set him at liberty. Now of giving away his Kingdom, this chief French Historiographer maketh no mention. And if the Pope so did, why may he not seem to have done it 
‡ A joily way, to fray a King.  rather to fear him, and to reclaim his mind from disobedience? Verily Platina writing it, declareth, how before the Pope proceeded to that extremity, the French King did what in him lay, 
* By this Divinity, if any Kingdom refuse to be subject, and thrall to the See of Rome, the Pope may give the same away at his pleasure.  to withdraw the people of France from the obedience of the Church and See apostolic.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, ye stammer in your tale, and know not well, what to say. If the Pope gave away the Kingdom of France from the Prince, he did it, ye say, to the intent to fear him. A pretty device, 
Philippus. Bonifacius. 8.  to fray a King, to pull the Crown Imperial from his head.  
first, this Pope Bonifacius is he, of whom it was said, Intravit, ut Vulpes: Regnavit, ut Lupus: Mortuus est, ut Canis: He entered into the Popedom as a Fox: He reigned as a Wolf: he died (in prison) as a Dog. In Solemn Procession he went attired with the Crown Imperial, 
Paralip. Vrspergen.  and rob of Majesty, as an Emperor, and commanded thee Naked sword to be borne before him. In the Story of his Life joined with his own Book, 
In vita Bonifacij 8. In Sexto: Idem in Platyna.  named, Sextus Bonifacij. 8. it is written thus: Moritur hoc modo Bonifacius, qui Imperatoribus, Regibus, Principibus, Nationibus, Populis terrorem potiùs, quàm Religionem inijcere conabatur: Thus died Pope Bonifacius, a man, that sought more to strike terror into Emperors, Kings, Princes, People, and Nations, then true Religion.  
This Bonifacius, 
Sabel. Aenead. 9 Lib. 7.  saith Sabellicus, sent to the French King for money, as he pretended, towards the recovery of Jerusalem. The Bishop of Apamea, being his Legate in that behalf, uttered certain great words in the presence of the King, and threatened him, unless he would grant it.  
The King, not quietly bearing such presumptuous boldness, commanded the apostolic Legate unto ward. This injury so inflamed the Pope's choler, that immediately he sent the archbishop of Narbon to the King, to require him to set his Legate at liberty: otherwise to tell him, that for his wickedness, the right of his Kingdom was fallen to the Church of Rome. Thus Sabellicus, in favour of the Pope, thought it good somewhat to shadow the matter.  
But others thereof have written thus: 
Martinus Polonus.  Bonifacius 8. mandat Regi, se esse Dominum in Spiritualibus, & temporalibus in universo Mundo: Vtque Rex recognoscat Regnum Franciae à se. Contrarium enim sentire, & tenere, Haereticum esse: Bonifacius 8. sent unto the French King, and told him, that he was Lord both in Spiritual, and also in Temporal matters throughout the world: and therefore, that the King should hold his Kingdom at his hand. For otherwise to think, and hold, he said, it was Heresy: This is it, that in the name of the Pope is noted in your Gloze: 
Dist. 81. Si qui. In Glossa.  Quicunque praeceptis nostris non obedierit, peccatum Idololatriae, & Paganitatis incurrit: Who so ever obeyeth not our commandments, falleth into the Sin of Idolatry, 
Abbas Vrspergen.  and Infidelity. Hereof Vrspergensis writeth thus, Habes, Roma, quod sitisti: decanta Canticum: quia per malitiam, non per Religionem orbem vicisti: O Rome, thou haste now, that thou haste so long thirsted after. Now sing menly. For by thy malice, not by Religion, thou haste conquered the world.  
The King, being moved herewith, commanded that none of his clergy should come to the Pope's Council: 
Paulus Aemyl. Platyna. Sabellicus. Nauclerus.  He openly burnt the Pope's writes: He commanded the Pope's Legate to depart out of his Realm: He forebade that any money should be made thence to the Pope: He gave out Proclamations, that none of his Subjects should go to Rome: And in the Synod at Parise he charged the Pope with Pride, Ambition, Murder, Simony, and Heresy.  
Thus much of the dealing of the Crown of France unto a stranger: that is to say, of the Faith, and Reverence, that the Pope beareth to Kings, and Princes. Here followed somewhat of the spoiling of the Duke of savoy, and of the altering of the state of Florence: which things I thought it best to pass over, as not worthy of any Answer.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 4.  
We are accloied with Examples in this behalf, and it should be very tedious, to reckon up all the notorious practices of the Bishops of Rome. But of which side were they, I beseech you, that poisoned Henry the Emperor, 
Poison in the Sacrament.  even in the receiving of the Sacrament? Which poisoned Victor the Pope, even in the receiving of the Chalice? Which poisoned our King john, King of England, in a Drinking Cup? Who so ever at least they were, and of what sect so ever, I am sure, they were neither Lutherans, nor Zwinglians.  

M. harding.  
The Finds of Hell were not yet let lose, that begat Lutherans, Zwinglians, and calvinists. And hereof we understand the youth of your Church, which having divided itself from the old and Catholic Church, is no other but the malignante Church, and synagogue of Satan.  
To answer your demands. Who so ever they were, that poisoned these great personages, (if they were poisoned at all) good men were they not, neither the doers, nor the counsellors. Henry of Luxenburg it was, who was poisoned by report. Whom your Latin Book printed among the Huguenots calleth Henry the seventh, M. Doctor Haddon in his answer to Osorius, accounteth him the fourth, in both your English translations (that I have seen) he is called only Henry. As he laid siege to the City of Florence, and had now brought the Citizens to despair of their safety: when manly courage might not serve, they betook them to cowardly malice. first they poisoned (as it is said) the mind of a friar Dominican with Gold, that afterward he should adventere to poison the emperors body with Venom. Paulus Aemilius saith, that he died of a sickness, which he fell into at Bonconuento, 
Lib. 8. In scholij● in Platinan.  as he journeyed from Pisa thither. Onuphrius, writing of his Death, saith that he died at Bonconuento a town in the territory of Sienna, and maketh no mention of his Poisoning. Cornelius Cornepolita writing this story, seemeth to give little credit unto it. For he addeth an hear say, Vt aiunt, 
In Chronographia.  as they say, as though it were a matter avouched by no certainty, but by Hearesaie. Nauclerus reporteth, that the order of those religius men is said to have a testimonial in writing, witnessing the foresaid Friere to have been Innocent, and that the whole was but a feigned tale.  
Victor the third Pope is mentioned by Martinus Polonus, to have been poisoned by the malicious procurement of the Emperor Henry the third, because he stood in defence of Gregory the seventh, whom the Emperor so much hated and persecuted. Vincentius holdeth contrary opinion, that he died of a dysentery▪ as Platina reciteth.  
touching King john of England, they that writ that he was poisoned in a drinking cup by Monks, themselves make no better than a fable of it: and who so ever writ it, refer themselves to hearsay, and to the popular fame. The Author of your Acts and Monuments reporteth, that many opinions are among the Chronicle writers of his Death. As ye proceed in your malicious railing against the Pope, ye spit out your poison, demaundinge certain question, short, in Words▪ but full stuffed with false and cankered slanders.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Poisoninge of that Noble Emperor Henry of Lucenburg, in the Sacrament, whereby it appeareth, how far forth the States of the world ought to trust you, ye would have us to pass lightly over, as a Fable. Of your Onuphrius, and Cornelius, and other like Parasites, we make no reckoning. The truth of the story is reported by many. 
Paralipom. Vrsperg. Ann. 1313. Bapt. Egnatius. Aventinus. Carion. Supplementum Chron.  Vrspergensis saith, Quidam Religiosus porrexit Imperatori intoxicatam Eucharistiam etc. A certain Religious man ministered unto the Emperor the Sacrament poisoned. The Emperor having received it, and returning again unto his place, thought that a piece of cold Ice was passed along through his body.  
Baptista Egnatius saith, it was wrought by the policy of Robertus King of Sicilia, moved thereto, as Aventinus saith, by Pope Clement. 5. The same ye shall find recorded in Carion, 
Textor in Officina: Veneno extincti.  in Supplemento Chronicorum, in Ravisius Textor, and sundry others.  
The like record there is found of poisoning of Victor. 3. in the Chalice. For the more credit whereof it may please you to read Martinus Polonus the Pope's Penitentiary, Volaterranus, Matthaeus Palmerius, the Supply of Chronicles, Fasciculus Temporum, Textor, and others.  
touching the death of King john, whether he were poisoned by a Monk, or no, I will not strive: referring me self therein to the credit of our Chronicles: the common report whereof, together with the general opinion of the people, is this, that he was destroyed with poison. But what so ever were the cause of his death, 
Mathias Parisien. An. 1211.  Mathias Parisiensis saith thus, Papa Innocentius sententionaliter definivit etc. Pope Innocentius determined by sentence, that King john should be deposed from his estate. And he enjoined the execution thereof to the French King, for Remission of his Sins, promising him also faithfully, that, if he so did, he, and his Successors should enjoy the Kingdom of England for ever. So much is England bound to reverence, and obey the Pope.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 2.  
What is he at this day, which alloweth the mightiest Kings and monarchs of the world to kiss his blessed Feet?  

M. harding.  
It is he (say we) that humbly for his own person refuseth such honour, that calleth, and thinketh himself, servum servorum Dei, the servant of the servants of God. But when he seeth the great powers and Princes of the world humble themselves to Christ, Lord of all Lords, and King of all Kings, in the person of him, whose Vicar on Earth he is, and chief deputy in those things, that be to God ward: not unmindful what he is of himself, for the rooms sake that he beareth, and for his honour whose vicegerent he is, the rather also for 
* A proper School of Humility.  example of Humility and Obedience, so to be taken and learned of others of inferior degree: he suffereth that honour to be done, which is more than a mere man can require. Neither is this the pride of Popes at these days only, as ye object, but the example of such humility in Princes we can prove to be ancient.  
The great King Charlemaigne, who afterward was create Emperor, could not be withholden by the Pope Adrian the first, 
Platina in vita Adriani.  but at the first meeting he would kiss his feet. Many other Emperors and Kings have of old time done likewise. And lest the sovereignty of such Honour exhibited unto him should in his own conceit lift him higher than for the degree of humane condition, 
‡ fie forshame. cannot the pope learn Humility, but by a draught?  to that purpose serveth the stool of natural easement at his creation, whereof your surmise is 
* Untruth. For it is not sur missed by us, but recorded by your own writers. Sabellicus saith, Vt sedentis genitalia ab ultimo Diacono attrectentur.  very vile, to temper the highness of that vocation with the base consideration of humane infirmities and necessities.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What thing is there, either so vile, or so horrible, but by such proper excuses may soon be smoothed? Chrysostom saith, Haec, etsi minima esse videantur, tamen magnorum sunt causae malorum. 
Chrysostom. in Matthae. Homil. 74.  Name & Civitates, & Ecclesias saepe numerò everterunt. Propterea nec à lachrymis abstinere possum, cùm primos istos consessus & salutationes audiam, ac in mentem veniat, quot, quantá hinc mala in Ecclesia Die orta sint: These things, notwithstanding they seem small, yet are they the causes of great evils. For oftentimes have they overthrown both Cities, and Churches. Therefore I cannot abstain from weeping, when I hear of these Superiorities, and Salutations: and consider, how many, and how great evils have grown thereof in the Church of God. 
Hieronym. in Epist ad Galathas Cap. 4.  S. Jerome, much misliking the state of his time, saith thus, Episcopi, velut in aliqua sublimi specula constituti, vix dignantur videre mortales, & alloqui conserous suos: The Bishops, as if they were placed in some high Castle, scarcely vouchsafe to look upon poor mortal men, and to speak unto their fellow servants.  
touching the Bishop of Rome, 
Kiss the Pope's foot.  it is not for nought, that S. Gregory saith, Rex Superbiae in foribus est: The King of Pride is even at hand. In the Pope's own Book of the Ceremonies of Rome, 
Gregor. Lib 4. Epist. 38.  it is written thus, Electus Imperator cum suis omnibus, seruato ordine, per gradus ascendit suggestum. Et ut primùm videt Pontificem, detecto capite, 
Ceremoniar. Li. 1. Sectio. 5. Ca 3. Devotè osculatur.  illum, genu terram contingens, veneratur: & iterum, cùm appropinquat ad gradus Sedis, genuflectit: demum, ubi ad Pontificis pedes pervenit, illos in reverentiam salvatoris Deuotè osculatur: The Emperor Elect going in array with all his train, passeth up the stairs into the scaffold. And as soon, as he seeth the Pope, he worshippeth him with bare head, touching the ground with his knee: Again, when he cometh to the foot of the Pope's throne, he kneeleth down. last of all, when he cometh unto the Pope's Feet, he kisseth them devoutly in the reverence of our savour. This is ordered, as a special Ceremony, and appointed unto the Emperor, as part of his duty.  
Likewise it is written of the Empress, as concerning her duty: Imperatrix Coronata, 
Ceremoniar. Li. 1. Sectio. 5. Ca 6. Ceremoniarium. Lib. 3. Cap. 2.  mox osculatur Pedem Pontificis: The Empress being Crowned immediately kisseth the Pope's foot.  
Again of the Pope himself it is written thus: Papa nemini omninò mortalium reverentiam facit, assurgendo manifestè, aut Caput inclinando, seu detegendo: The Pope himself giveth no manner of reverence to any man alive, either openly by standing up, or by bowing down, or by uncovering his Head.  
But the Pope, say you, humbly, for his own person, refuseth such honour, and hereby teacheth Kings, and Emperors, and all their Subjects to be humble. A strange case, to teach Humility in the School of Pride. Such Humility taught julius Caesar, Diocletian, and Maximinus. julius Caesar raught out his foot for Pompeius Poenus to kiss, that folks might see his Golden Slipper set with stones. 
Seneca. Pomponius Laetus in Diocletiano.  Pomponius Laetus saith, Diocletianus edicto sanxit etc. Diocletian commanded by Proclamation, that all men should fall down, and kiss his Feet: whereunto also be added a certain reverence, adourninge his shoes with Gold, 
Alexander ab Alexandro. 2. Thessalon. 2.  and Diamonds. Maximinus also afterward did the like.  
Such Humility shall antichrist teach, advancing himself above all that is worshipped, or called God.  
Such Humility the Devil took upon him to teach, when he said to Christ, I will give thee all these things, 
Matthae. 4.  if thou wilt fall down, and worship me.  
Thus may the Pope call himself Lord of Lords: King of Kings: and set his foot on emperors necks: and yet nevertheless, if he can frame a new title, and say, He is servus servorum Dei, The Servant of God's Servants, it is no Pride: it is but Humility.  
Antoninus saith, 
Antoninus in Summa, Par. 3. ti. 22. Ca 5. §. 4.  Non minor honor debetur Papae, quàm Angelis. unde Papa recipit à Fidelibus Adorationes, Prostrationes, & Oscula pedum: quod non permisit Angelus à johann evangelista sibi fieri: There is no less honour dew unto the Pope, then unto the Angels of God. Therefore the Pope suffereth the faithful to Worship him, to fall down before him, and to kiss his Feet: which things the Angel of God would not suffer S. john the evangelist to do unto him.  
This, M. harding, is no maliceous railing, as ye call it, nor Spite, nor Poison, nor Untruth stuffed with false, and cankered slanders. By the report of your own Doctors, and by your own Confession, it is the Truth.  
The Porphyry Stool of easement serveth, ye say, to put the Pope in mind of his Humanity, that is to say, that he may remember himself, in the mids of all his glory, to be a man. No, no, M. harding, your own Authors, and stories can tell you, that stool serveth, to put the Pope in remembrance of his Virility: that the world may know, he is no woman.  
But let your imagination stand for true. Yet may we think, your Popes are so forgeatful, or so dull-headed, or so blockish, that they have need to be taught by so vile examples, to know themselves? Certainly this is a Mystical kind of Stool of Easement. We cannot lightly lack Mysteries at his hands, if so homely a place be so full of Mysteries. King Alexander the Great understood himself to be a Man Mortal, 
Plutarch. in Alexandr●.  for that he was sometimes of natural necessity forced to sleep. But Christ's Vicar: Peter's successor: The doctor of all Doctoures: The Father of all Fathers: The Master, and Teacher of all the world, were it not for a stool of casement, would quite forgeate his own Humanity, and could never remember himself to be a Man.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 3.  
What is he, that commandeth the Emperor to go by him at his horse bridle, and the French King to hold his stirope?  

M. harding.  
What he is. 
* Untruths two togethers Read the Answer.  we know not, * nor you neither, Sir Defender. This we know, that in these words most impudently you bely the Pope. For never was there Pope that commanded either French King, or Emperor to do the service you speak of. part of that I have readen pertaining hereunto, I will here recite.  
The worthiest and greatest Prince that ever was in Earth, Constantine the Great, to witness openly the reverence which he bore in his heart to Christ our Saviour, and to S. Peter, whose successor the Pope is, as likewise Christ's Vicar in Earth, disdained not to honour S Sylvester Pope in his time, with doing 
‡ All this is a great untruth, and a shameless Fable.  the office of a footman to him, and with leading his Horse by the Bridle. Wherein he seemeth, as first of all Emperors he professed the Faith of Christ openly, so first of all Princes to have given to the posterity an example of Humility. That no man doubt of it, this much I find recorded by an old Father of the Greek Church, Matthaeus Hierom●nac hus, as uttered by Constantine himself: 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. This is Greek even for a Pope.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Which ●n English is this much. submitting ourself to the office of a foot man, and holding his Horse by the Bridle, we lead him forth out of his sacred Palais, in the worship and reverence of S. Peter.  
That sithence both Emperors, and French Kings of Humility and devotion, and to witness their humble obedience to Christ in his Vicar, have done the like service, yea though the Pope showed himself never so unwilling thereto: we find it reported in sundry good records. 
* Untruth most manifest. For it is thus Ordered in the Pope's own Pontifical, and in his own Book of Ceremonies.  But that he ever commanded any such service to be done unto him, ye can never she we it by any indifferent and credible witness. Paulus Aemylius an Italian of Verona, in the second Book of his Chronicles, which both diligently and eloquently he wrote of France, describeth how honourably Pipine that worthy King of France received Steven the Pope, that succeeded Zacharias, when he came into his Realm. He both killed his feet, and went by him at his Horse bridle.  
The like honour of holding the Stirope would Charles the fifth the late great Emperor have down at B●non●a to Pope Clement the seventh, had not the Pope with much ado put him from it.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This thing Sir Defender knoweth: notwithstanding you, M. harding, dissemble it cunningely, and will not be known, that ye know it. Neither doth Sir Defender, as you say, by these words impudently bely the Pope. For trial hereof he referreth you to the Popes own Book of Holy Ceremonies: wherein in it is particularly appointed, 
The Pope's Bridle.  and laid out in order, to avoid confusion, what each estate ought, 
The Pope's Stirope.  and is bound to do.  
Thus therefore it is appointed, Cùm Papa per scalam ascendit etc. When the Pope taketh his stairs to mount on Horseback, 
Ceremoniarium. Lib. 1. Cap. 8.  the greatest Prince, that is present, whether he be King, or Emperor, holdeth his Stirope: and afterward leadeth his Horse a little way forward by the Bridle. But if there were two Kings in presence, the more Honourable of them should hold the Bridle of the Rightside: and the other of the least. If there happen no King to be present, then let the worthiest persons lead his Horse. 
Etiamsi Imperator, aut quiuts maximus Princeps adesset, Sellam ipsam cum Pontifice in humeris aliquantulum portare debet: Ceremoniar. Li. 1 sectio. 5. Ca 4. Dum Imperator haec utilitatis Officia vult exhebere etc. Tandem cum aliquibus bonis verbis recipiendo, permittit etc. Ceremoniarium. Lib. 1. Cap. 8.  But if the Pope would not ride, but he borne on men's shoulders in a Chair, then must four of the worthiest Princes, yea the Emperor himself, or any other mighty Monarch, if he be present, bear the Chair, Pope and all, a little way forward upon their shoulders. Again, Imperator, traditis Pomo, & Sceptro etc. The Emperor delivering over his Golden Apple, and his Sceptre to one of his men, cometh unto the Pope's Horse, and in honour of our Lord jesus Christ, whole person in Earth the Pope heareth, he holdeth the Stirope, until the● Pope be mounted: and afterward he taketh the Bridle, and leadeth forth his Horse. While the Emperor doth these profitable offices, the Pope ought modestly a little to refuse the same: and yet afterward, with certain good, and gentle words, taking that honour as done to Christ, and not unto himself, he holdeth himself contented.  
Further it is appointed thus, Caudam plwialis portabit Nobilior Laicus, qui erit in Curia, etiamsi esset Imperator, aut Rex: The most Noble Lay man, that shall be in the Court, shall bear up the train of the Pope's Cope, yea though it be an Emperor, or a King. Again, 
* Ceremoniar. Li. 1. Sectio. 3.  Let the most Noble Laic man, whether he be King, or Emperor, bring water to wash the Pope's hands. And while the Pope washeth, let all the Bishops, and Lay men kneel down.  
Again, Pontifice sedente etc. 
‡ Ceremoniar. Lib. 2. Cap. 10. Etiamsi Rex aut Imperator sit.  While the Pope is yet sitting at the Table, the Noblest man within the Court, be he Emperor, be he King, shallbe brought to the Pope's Credence, to give him Water.  
Again, 
* Ceremoniar. Li. 1. Sectio. 3.  Primum ferculum portabit Nobilior Princeps, sive Imperator sit, sive Rex: The first disshe the Noblest Prince shall carry, whether he be Emperor, or King. Again, 
‡ Ceremonia. Li. 1. Sectio. 13. ca 2.  Rex in collatione portabit primum potum: When the Pope is at breakfast, the King shall bear his first Cup. And again, Pocula portentur etc. Let the Pope's Cups be borne by the Noble men, or Orators being present: and let the Clerk of the Ceremonies begin with the worthiest estate: yea though he be King, or Emperor.  
Now, I trust, M. harding, of your courteste, ye will confess, that Sir Defender, in these words, hath not so impudently belied the Pope. The Pope's own Book of Ordinances, and Ceremonies, that directeth all orders, saith thus:  

The Emperor shall hold the Pope's Stirope:  
Let the Emperor lead the Pope's Horse:  
The Emperor must bear the Pope's Chair on his shoulder:  
The Emperor shall bear up the Pope's train:  
Let the Emperor bring the Basin and Ewer to the Pope:  
The Emperor shall give the Pope water:  
The Emperor shall carry the Pope's first dish:  
The Emperor shall carry the Pope's first Cup.   
For excuse hereof, perhaps ye will say, These were the Abuses of Old times: But now all such disorders are well reformed. Therefore it may please you to remember, that the self same Ceremonies, touching Kings and emperors duties, have been lately renewed, and confirmed, and published abroad into the world, word by word as they were before, without any manner alteration, even in the Pope's own Pontifical, and that even now newly printed at Venice, in the year of Our Lord a thousand five hundred three score and one, whereby it may appear, ye are ashamed of nothing, be it never so shameful.  
What truth therefore, M. harding, is in your word? Or, with what countenance could ye so boldly say, That the Pope ever commanded any such Service to be done unto him by the Emperor, ye can never show it by any indifferent and credible witness? I doubt not, but the Popes own witness is unto you of sufficient credit: and in his own case it must needs to himself seem indifferent. Hereby it plainly appeareth, that in all Offices, and Services, the Pope useth the Emperor as his man. Therefore Aventinus reporteth these two verses, written sometime of the Emperor Lotharius the second,  

Rex venit ad fores, 
Aventinus in Fredericho. 1.  iurans per Vrbis honores:  
Pòst homo fit Papac, sumit quo dante Coronam:   
The King, or Emperor cometh to the gates, and sweareth by the honour of the City: And afterward becometh the Pope's Man, at whose hands he receiveth the Crown.  
That Pipinus so much abased himself to Pope Stevin, it is no marvel. The Proverb is common, One hand claweth an other. The Pope was avanced by Pipine: and Pipine was likewise avanced by the Pope. But hereof we have spoken before.  
Where ye say, The Emperor Constantine the Great was footman to the Pope, I am much ashamed of your vanity, that being a man of wisdom, & learning, ye should thus seek to mock the world with Childish Fables.  
Ye allege Matthaeus Hieromonachus, to prove a Fable by a Fable. If ye would das●e your Readers eyes, for that ye allege his words in Greek, understand you, that his peevish Greek was taken out of your peevish Latin. And yet is the same Greek so fond, & so full of folly, that ye were ashamed truly to turn it into English. For thus it standeth, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: That is, In the worship and fear of my Lord Blessed Peter. Ye durst not, to make the Emperor Constantine so rude, to say, that Peter was his Lord: and therefore ye thought it better, to corrupt, and alter your Authors words. Yet such vain Fables, and Trifles must ye bring in, to put us, as ye say, quite out of doubt.  
But hereof we shall say more hereafter.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 4.  
Who hurled under his table Frauncise Dandalus, the Duke of Venice, King of Creta & Cypress, fast bound with chains, to feed of bones among his Dogs?  

M. harding.  
Were not this Defender passed all shame, he would not make so many and so shameless lies. Malice hath so far blinded him, that he seemeth not to see, what becometh a man. Though he fear not to be accounted a liar, yet he should be loath to be accounted an unhonest man, yea and specially a fool. 
‡ In this One little Marginal note, M. harding hath uttered four Untruths altogether. Read the Answer.  Let truth and honesty go, for in deed there is little in these fellows: what foolishness is it, a man to bring all his doctrine, and all his sayings, touching things that he would so fame be believed, 
‡ Sabellicus Decadis. 2. li. 1. 1220. Historiae rerum Ven●tarū lib. 4.  into so great and certain discredit, by such open and manifest lies? The truth hereof is this, as I find it witnessed in Sabellicus, and in the chiefest Chronicles the Venettars have, written by a Noble ma of Venice, named Petrus justinianus. The City of Venus being interdicted of the Pope, Frauncys Dandalus was sent by the Duke and Lords of the council there, to sue for Absolution. At that time was he neither King of Creta, 
Franciscus Dandalus.  nor of Cypress, nor Duke of Venice, as it pleaseth this liinge Defender to write of him, and that in the Defence of their English Church written to all the world. johannes Superantius then was Duke, and this francis Dandalus was 
‡ Untruth. For he was then a Senator of very great Honour: And at the next Election was chosen Duke.  but a Private man for that time, as others there were. This Ambassador francis Dandalus finding the Pope at his first coming not well inclined to grant his petition as he wished, the 
* The offence stood only in healpinge their Neighbour, being a banished man, into his Country.  quality of the offence deserving the same: to move him to clemency and pity, advised with himself to play this pageant. He caused an iron chain to be tied about his neck. Therewith he came to the Pope as he s●te at dinner, put himself to creep on all four, and like a Dog laid him down under the Table, so long until the Pope's displeasure being assuaged, he obtained Pardon for his Country. Whereof, they say, he had afterward the surname of Dog given him, as justinianus writeth. Who desireth to see the whole Story, he shall find it well written by the said Petrus justinianus, Historiae rerum Venetarum libro quarto. Now let us see, Sir Defender, how many lies ye make in one sentence. That francis Dandalus was by the Pope hurled under his Table, this is one lie. That he was then Duke of Venice, King of Creta and Cyprus, there be two lies, beside the Notable lie, you seem to be very ignorant of the state of Venice, in that you make the Duke an Ambassador, who being once created Duke, goeth not out of the City. 
‡ Yet the right, and state of both these kingdoms is in his hand.  Neither is ever any of their state King of Candy and Cyprus. For their state admitteth none to be a King among them: how be it at the time of francis Dandalus Candy rebelled, and Cyprus was not yet come to be under the government of the Venetians, as you might have learned in the eloquent History that Petrus Bembus wrote of Venus' his Country. That he was fast bound with Chains, there be three Lies. For he was not fast bound, 
* All these matters be full solemnly proved, and are worthy to be published by Proclamation.  only he had cast a chain about his own neck, which he might have taken of at his pleasure. That he was so thrown under the Table to gnaw bones among the Pope's Dogs, 
* All these matters be full solemnly proved, and are worthy to be published by Proclamation.  there be four lies. And that the Pope had Dogs feeding of bones under his Table, * 
* All these matters be full solemnly proved, and are worthy to be published by Proclamation.  I doubt not but it is other lie. Whether these five lies be not enough for one little sentence of three lines, I report me to whosoever of your own fellows lieth for the best game. I think verily this Defender if he be not very shameless, wisheth he had a thicker beard to hide his slike cheeks from blushing. Such false causes must be defended by lying proctors. If they belied stories only, and taught not also false Doctrine in the chief points of our Faith, their lying were less hurtful.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
So many lies, M. harding, and, as ye say, so far passed shame, and such hot Tragedies, and the cause no greater? What stir would ye have kept, if it had been matter worthy the hearing? what if the author of the Apology had been overseen in the report of one year, or two, or in some other like Circumstance, the Substance of the Story nevertheless still reserved? If ye had remembered some of your own often oversights, ye could not for shame have been so terrible against others. For it appeareth well, by all that ye have hitherto sent us over, your insight in matters is not so deep, but ye may often, and foully be deceived. You yourself, M. harding, both in this self same place, and in this self same story, and in the report of one poor note, have committed four, foul, and gross errors, with one breath, altogether. You yourself, I say, M. harding: I speak of none other, but of yourself. If ye think, the beams of your knowledge shine so clear, that it can never be overcaste with cloud of error, then, I beseech you, consider well your Note specially marked in your Margin. 
Folio. 186. a.  Thus ye direct us to the Author of your Story: Sabellicus Decadis 2. li. 1. 1220. In this one little short note, I say, ye have sent us four errors. For first, 
Decades.  every child knoweth, that Sabellicus never wrote Decades, but only Enneades. And therefore, if I were not better acquainted with your Learning, I might seem to have just cause to say, either ye never saw Sabellicus Books, or else ye never read them. I will not here keep an Audite, as you do, nor say, as you say, 
second Decade.  This is one lie. Further ye say, it is written in the second Decade: But Sabellicus the author himself saith. 
Franciscus Dandalus. first Book.  It is written in the nienth Enneade. I will not say, as you say, There be two Lies. Again you say, It is in the first Book: But Sabellicus himself saith, It is in the seventh Book. Yet will not I follow you, nor say, There be three Lies. For a surplusage, and more likelihood of your tale, 
Anno Do. 1220.  ye note also the year of our Lord 1220. with as good discretion, as the rest. For at that time, neither Pope Clemens, nor Francise Dandalus was yet borne. For this thing happened, as it most plainly appeareth by all stories, about the year of our Lord 1310. All this notwithstanding, I will not hunt so greedily for advantages, nor say, as you say, There is the Foruthe Lie. Neither will I say, as you say, not withstanding some man perhaps might happen to say it, M. harding the Defender hereof, is either an Vnhoneste man, or passed shame, or a Liar, or a fool.  
These words of yours, M. harding, are neither mannerly, nor manly: notwithstanding they seem well to content your pleasant humour. S. Jerome saith, 
Hierony. Aduersus error. johan. Hierosolymit.  Non aequè inimici audiunt, & amici. Qui inimicus est, etiam in scirpo nodum quaerit: An Enemy, and a Friend hear not both of one sort. An Enemy will (cavil, and quarrel, and) seek a knot in a rush. The Substance of God's Religion standeth not in the reporting of a story. S. Jerome saith of such Captious quarrelers: Audiant à me, non periclitari Ecclesiarum statum, si ego celeritate dictandi verba aliqua dimiserim: 
Hierony. De optimo genere interpretandi  Let them understand, that all be it I in haste of penninge have let escape a word, or two, yet that shall not hazard the state of the Church of God.  
But Francise Dandalus, ye say, was not at that time Duke of Venice: He himself tied the chain about his own neck: 
Not Duke.  He came of his own accord upon all four, as if he had been a Dog, and lay down willingly under the Pope's Table: He lay not there to gnaw bones: He found no Dog there to lie with him. Therefore, ye say, this Defender is an Vnhoneste man, passed all shame, a Liar, and a fool. Such Choleric Conclusions, M. harding, may well beseem a doctor of your Divinity.  
How be it, the faireste colour, ye can lay upon the matter, is this, That the ambassador of that Noble Common Weal of Venice, lay as a Dog, in a chain, underneath the Pope's Table, as you say, and that, willingly, and with all his heart, by such Submission to appease the Pope's ●ighe indignation, and to recover his favour towards his Country. It seemeth, he was either a very arrogant man, or a marvelous angry Pope, that would by none other Submission be reconciled.  
But Dandalus at that time was not Duke. Neither was it so hard a matter to know that, M. harding: nor was it so great an Heresy to call him Duke, for that shortly after he was made Duke. 
August. De Consensu Evangelist. Lib. 2. Cap. 17.  S. Augustine saith, Dicimus, Apostolum Paulum in Tharso Ciliciae natum. At ille tunc iam non erat Apostolus. Ita cùm audimus, Discipulos Christi inuitatos ad nuptias, non iam Discipulos, sed qui futuri erant Discipuli, intelligere debemus: We say, that Paul the Apostle was borne at Tharsus in Cilicia. And yet Paul at that time, when he was borne, was no Apostle. Even so, 
johan. 2.  when we hear, that Christ's Disciples were bidden to the Marriage Feast at Cana in Galilee, we must understand, that they were not then his Disciples, but became afterward his Disciples.  
So S. Jerome calleth Pamphilus a Martyr: and yet at that time, whereof he meant, 
Hierony. De Errorib Origenis.  Pamphilus in deed was no Martyr. Therefore he saith, Concedamus, ut Pamphili sit, sed nondum Martyris. Antè enim scripsit, quàm Martyrium perpeteretur: Let us grant, it was Pamphilus Book: but that Pamphilus as yet was no Martyr. For he wrote his Book first, and was Martyr afterward. Likewise again he saith, 
Hierony in Ezechielem. Lib. 9 Cap. 30.  Nos pro, No, Alexandriam posuimus per Anticipationem, quae Graecè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 appellatur: We in steed of the City, No, have translated it, the City Alexandria, 
Franciscus Dandalus.  by a Figure called Anticipation: For that the City, which before was called, No, was afterward called Alexandria.  
So S. Augustine saith, 
Genes. 35. Augu. in quaest. super Genesim, Quaest. 117.  It is written in the Book of Genesis: Hi sunt filii Israel, qui nati sunt ei in Mesoporamia: cùm Beniamin longè posteà natus sit, cùm iam transissent Bethel, & appropinquarent Bethleem: These be the Children of Israel, that were borne to him in Mesopotamia: And yet Benjamin (that there is reckoned for one of his Children) was borne (not in Mesopotamia, but) long afterward, when they were now paste Bethel, and drew? towards Bethleem, that is in jewrie. Yet bath there been no man hitherto so uncourteous, that ever would use your eloquence, M. harding, and call either Moses, or S. Augustine, or S. Jerome, Fools, or Liars.  
If ye would but indifferently have weighed the matter, ye might well have thought, we called Dandalus Duke of Venice, for that he was soon afterward chosen Duke of Venice.  
So we may say, doctor harding freely, and fully professed the Gospel, & preached vehemently against the Pope. Nevertheless, when he thus preached, he was not yet known by the name of a doctor.  
Let us grant, there was some error in the report of this story. Yet must every man be condemned for a Fool, and a Liar, that may be taken in like error? If so, then will M. harding trouble his Godfathers, and cause them to give him a new name.  
S. Chrysostom saith, 
Matth. 2. Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 2. Clemens Stromat. 1.  There were twelve Magi, or Wisemennes, that came to Christ: And yet ye hold commonly, they were but three. Clemens Alexandrinus saith, Christ preached but one year: yet others say, he preached three years: others say, he preached four. some say, Christ was three and thirty years old, some say, he was four and thirty, when he suffered. Yet Tertullian saith, 
Tertul. Contra jud. cos. Irenaeus Lib. 2.  he was Only thirty years old: Irenaeus saith, He was more than forty. Christ saith, My Father is able to give me twelve Legions of Angels: S. Hilary, in the report thereof, a great deal avanceth the number, 
Cap. 34. & 40. Matth. 26. Hilarius in Psalm. 54.  and reckoneth duodecim Millia Legionum, twelve Thousand Legions. Your own Blessed Donation of Constantine, which, ye say, so much irketh us, commandeth the Patriarch of Constantinople to be subject, and obedient to the Bishop of Rome: And yet at that time, when, by your imagination, this Fable was devised, 
Donatio Constantini.  there was neither Patriarch, nor Church in Constantinople, nor any City as yet built, and known by that name. Your Follow Dorman allegeth full solemnly the seventh Book of Theodoretus: 
Dorman, Fol. 22.  And yet Theodoretus himself never wrote but only ●iue. And so be leapt two whole Books beyond his author. 
Dorman, Fol. 24.  And again he telleth us a proper tale, of the terrible Examples of two kings, Ozias, and Oza: And yet both he, and his Fellows might soon have learned, that Oza was only a poor Levite, and no King.  
You yourself, 
M. harding, Fol. 308. b.  M. harding, in this self same Book say, that the Council of Nice was kept in the time of Pope Sylvester: And yet Athanasius, that then was present at the same Council, 
Athanasi. in Apolog. M. harding, Fol. 309. a.  saith, Sylvester at that time was not alive: but that the Council was summoned by the Emperor, and holden in the time of Pope julius. Again you say, that at the very same time while the Council was holden at Nice, Pope Sylvester held likewise a Council in Rome: And so, by the judgement of Athanasius, ye say, that Pope Sylvester held a Council after he was dead.  
And must all these, and other your like tales, M. harding, pass under the name of Lies, and Follies?  
This Gentleman, ye say, was not so fast bound as we imagine: but fell down meekly, and Willingly of himself. 
willingly.  No doubt, M. harding, who so knoweth an Italian courage, will soon believe that Francise Dandalus, a Gentleman of such Nobility, and the ambassador of so Noble a Common Wealth, was soon, and easily, and willingly won, to come creeping with a iron chain on his neck, and to wallow under the Pope's Table, as a Dog, to his own immortal shame, and to the everlasting dishonour of his Country. Verily he would never have yielded himself to such Villainy, had it not been to avoid some other greater villainy. For, I beseech you, whether is it more cruelty, for you to run upon a poor man with sword drawn, and to strike him through, and so to kill him: or else to force him to lay cruel hands upon his own body, and to kill himself? S. Chrysostom saith, A poor man oftentimes is content to woounde, or feaster his own flesh, to the end, to move the rich man to some pity: Alij Capiti suo clavos acutos infigunt: alij per ipsum gelu nudo Corpore mendicantes petunt: 
Chrysostom. in 1. Corin. Homil. 21.  Alij hisce etiam graviora ferentes, miserabile de se praebent spectaculum. At dices, Nos illorum Capita non configimus. utinam verò tu configeres. Non enim tam gravis fuisset calamitas. Nam qui alium interimit, longè leviùs peccat, quàm is qui jubet aliquem seipsum interficere: some there be, that stick nails in their own heads: Some other go begging with naked bodies in the cold frost: Some others suffer other things of greater cruelty, and show themselves miserable to behold. But thou wilt say, we stick not these nails in their heads. Would God, thou stickedst them in. For than their misery were not so grievous. For he, that with his own hand killeth an other, committeth a great deal less fault, than he that forceth a man to kill himself.  
So, say we, it was far greater grief unto that Noble Gentleman, so vilely to dishonour, and abase himself, then if he had been driven thereto through the force and violence of his enemy. In this sort was the Emperor Henry the fourth well content, 
Vrspergen, Sabellicus Ennead. 9 Lib. 3.  willingly to wait upon Pope Hildebrande at Canusium, and three days together to stand batcheaded, and barefoot in the hard frost at his gate, & as one saith, to be a gastinge stock both to men, and Angels, before he might have licence to come near. So was the Emperor Frederichus Aenobarbus contented, willingly to lay his neck under the Pope's foot: as we shall declare more hereafter. 
Beno Cardinalis  So was the poor Gentlewoman content, to cast a halter about her own sons neck, and so to present him before Pope Hildebrand, whom he had offended, by such humble Subjection to crave his pardon. In respect whereof the Pope pardoned him his life: but commanded his foot to be stricken of: of which woounde the poor young Gentleman soon after died.  
Ye say, It is a lie, that Francise Dandalus, so Noble a Gentleman was driven to gnaw bones. 
Gnaw bones.  I think it well, M. harding: and therefore we will rather say, He lay there together up the crumbs, that fell from his lords Table.  
But under the Pope's table, 
No Dogs under the Pope's Table.  ye say, there were no Dogs. And this, ye say, is an other lie. Notwithstanding, this Negative were very hard for you to prove. How be it, hereat I will not greatly strive. And yet had it been a more seemly sight, in my judgement, to see a Dog lying there, than a man, and specially a Noble Gentleman, the ambassador of so Noble a City.  
To conclude, this was the same Pope Clemens the fifth, that thus pronounced of himself, and proclaimed the same unto the whole world by a Law: Nos superioritatem habemus ad Imperium: Nos, vacant Imperio, Imperatori succedimus: We have the sovereignty over the empire: 
Clem. Lib. 2. De Senten. & re judica. Cap. 2.  The empire being void, we are heirs apparent to the Emperor. The Venetians had given aid, to restore one Friscus a banished man unto the Dukedom of Ferrara. Therefore Pope Clemens interdicted them, and all that they had, and further signified his pleasure unto all the world, that whither so ever they, or any of them came, it should be lawful for any man, not only to take their bodies, and to sell them for slaves, & to spoil their goods, but also to kill them, whether it were by right, or by wrong. For so Sabellicus writeth, 
Sabellicus Ennead. 9 Lib. 7.  Vt eos fas esset unicuique, iure, & iniuria interficere. This was the cause of all this great a do. And this high indignation has never been slaked, had not so Noble a parsonage abased himself, to be tied by the neck in a chain, and to creep under the Pope's Table, upon all four, like a Dog.  
last of all, where it liketh you, in the end to refresh your wits with this Defenders thin cheeks, and blushing: verily, M. harding, he blussheth in deed, and is much ashamed in your behalf, to see your follies. God give you Grace, that you may blush at your misusing of God's people: less ye have that face, that the Prophet saith, is passed blushing. I trust, this Defender shall never blush to say, 
Rom. 1. Hierony. Aduersus Pelagianos, Lib. 1.  either with S. Paul, Non pudet me evangelii Christi: Est enim virtus Dei ad Salutem: I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: For it is the Power of God unto Salvation: Or with S. Jerome, Non me pudet nescire, quod nescio: I am not ashamed, in that thing, that I know not, to grant mine ignorance.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 5.  
Who set the Imperial Crown upon the Emeroure Henry the siethes' head, not with his hand, but with his foot: and with the same foot again cast the same Crown of, saying withal, He had Power to make Emperors, and to unmake them again at his pleasure▪  

M. harding.  
We deny, that Celestinus, whom you note in your books margin, or any other Pope did this. 
* Untruth. For the stories be plain. Read the Answer.  It is a varne fable devised rather of malice, than wit. Ye should have done well to show us, with which foo●e the Pope did set on the Crown upon Henr●es head, the rigit, or the left, standing, sitting, leninge, or lying, barefooted, and using the help of his great toe▪ or shod: whether he had some iymme iamme made for him to take it up, hold it, and put it on handsomely, or conveyed it on by a vice, or how it was done.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What nimbleness, or cunning the Pope hath in his feet, more than other men, I have not heard. What other sleights he hath now, or hath had in times passed to work such feats, it behoveth his Magister Ceremoniarum to consider. The story is recorded by Ranulphus, Rogerus Cestrensis, and Rogerus Hovedenus, that lived at the same time.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 6.  
Who put in arms Henry the Son against the Emperor his Father Henry the fourth, and wrought so, that the Father was taken prisoner of his own Son, and being shorn, and shamefully handled, was thrust into a Monastery, where with hunger, and sorrow he pined away to death.  

M. harding.  

‡ Untruth, easily reproved by good Records.  It was not the Pope, that armed Henry the second against Henry the fourth, who by th●●● count of some is Henry the third. ●●ories declare other causes of their falling out, and the more part of the writers impute it to the judgement of God, for punishment of his great wickedness. After that he was overcome with all his power by the Saxons, 
Henricus Impera. 4. Henricus Impera. 5.  in seventin days he durst not to appear abroad. In the mean time his son took upon him forthwith the administration of the empire, went into Italy with an army▪ would not surrender the state which he liked well, his father being therewith offended he took prisoner, 
* manifest Untruth. See the Answer.  without any motion of the Pope, 
‡ Untruth. For this was not the cause. But the Pope would have given the same himself.  with whom he was also at variance, and committed him to strait custody.  
Concerning Gregory the seventh Pope, who before was called Hildebrandus, whom that Emperor with endless malice persecuted, because he would 
‡ Untruth. For than he was at no variance with the Pope.  not ratify his Simoniacal making of Bishops, and giving of Ecclesiastical benefices, and defended the Church against his wicked attempts: beside sundry writers of Histories in that time, as Lambertus Schafnaburgensis, Leo Hostiensis, and afterward, Otho Frisingensis, who so much commend him for sundry excellent virtues: no man hath so largely and so diligently set forth his worthiness, as 
* This Ancient Doctor is yet alive, and writeth worthily for his heir.  Onuphr●us Panuinius, who hath written of him five Books.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We may easily believe you, M. harding, that the Pope armed not Henry the second, as you say, against his Father Henry the Fourth. It had been a marvelous Monster in Nature, that the Fourth should go before the second: or that the nephew should be borne before his Grandfather. But that the Pope raised up Henry the Fifth against Henry the Fourth, that is to say, the Son against the Father, that ye might have easily found in your own Records.  
Gregorius Heimbur● 〈…〉 thus, 
Gregor. Heimburgen.  Paschalis Papa Principes contra Henricum 4. concitavit: imò 〈◊〉 ●roprium Filium: quem etiam contra Patrem fecit per multos Episcopos Rhem●●●egē Coronari, & vocari Henricum Quintum. Pope Paschalis raised up the Princes of Germany against Henry the fourth: nai rather he raised up his own Son: whom also he caused by many bishops adjoining to the Rhiene, to be crowned Emperor against his own Father, and to be called Henry the fifth.  
The case being clear, this one Authority may stand in steed of many. Hereof Henry the Father pitieously complaineth in his Letters written to the French King. 
Carrion An. 1103.  Carion saith, Hunc Henricum Filium solicitarunt Episcopi, ut adversus Patrem insurgeret, eumque Imperio pelleret: The Bishops enticed this young Gentleman, Henry the Son, that he should rise against his Father, and put him from the empire. 
Vrspergen. Anno. 1105.  But these Bishops, as Vrspergensis saith, were Responsales Paschalis Papae, Pope Paschalis Agentes, or doers in those Countries. And Henry the Son himself, when he stood in the field, never pretended any other colour against his Father, but only the obedience of the See of Rome.  
And, lest any man should doubt of the Truth hereof, the Pope, not long before, had likewise raised up Rodolphus the Duke of Suevia against the same Emperor Henry the Fourth: 
Vrspergen. eod. loco, Pag. 257.  and, the better to encourrage his Ambitious head, and to train him to his purpose, had sent him a Crown with this Poisée:   

Petra dedit Petro, Petrus Diadema Rodolpho.  
Whereby he meant, 
Carion.  that, as Christ had given the state, and right of the empire unto the Pope, so would the Pope now bestow the same upon Rodolphus. Likewise he had written to the Princes of Germany, as Carrion saith, Vt Imperatorem alium designarent: That they should proceed to the Election of an other Emperor. Thus the Pope thought it but a play, to place, & displace the States of the world, at his pleasure. Of this emperors Virtues I will say nothing. As he is despraised by some, 
Aventinus.  so by others he is much commended: Aventinus saith, In Pauperes, Monachos, Sacerdotes munificentissimum, etc. His very enemies confess, that he was most Liberal unto poor folks, Monks, and Priests: that he was Constant in adversity: Faithful to his Prisoners: Gentle to his foes: devout towards God: wise and Politic in Civil, and Martial affairs: of a Princely Majesty of counenance: wherein he excelled all others, and was most worthy of the empire.  
Vrspergensis saith, He was Noble, doughty, and Venturous: & was seen three score and two sundry times in fought field: 
Vrspergen. Pag. 239.  wherein he passed both Marcellus, and julius Caesar, & all other Kings, and Emperors, that had been before him.  
The greatest cause of falling out between him and the Pope was this: 
Carion  Order was taken before, and had still been kept from the beginning, that the Election of the Pope should be ratified by the Emperor, otherwise not to stand. And Platyna saith, 
Platyna in Severo Papa.  The Pope Elected without the emperors letters patents was no Pope. another Ancient order was this, that the Emperor might bestow all the bishoprics, and Abbles of the empire, when so ever they should hap to be void. These Ancient Orders Pope Hildebrand presumed to break. For neither would he suffer his own Election to be ratified by the Emperor: nor the Emperor to bestow the bishoprics, or Abbeys within his dominions. In these attempts the Emperor withstood him, claiming unto himself the same right of inheritance, that all other Emperors his Predecessors had lawfully, and peaceably enjoyed before him. Therefore the Pope Excommunicated him: interdited his Land: 
Vrspergen. Pag. 264.  & called him Archepirate, Archeheretique, and Apostata: Therefore he deposed him: raised up the Duke of Suevia, and all the world against him: and armed the Son against the Father: and wilfully disquieted the whole State of all Christendom. 
Aventinus.  Aventinus saith, Multi tum privatim, tum pub licè, etc. Many there were, that both privately, and openly cursed Pope Hildebrande: and said, that with his hatred, and ambition he troubled the world: and that under the colour of Christ, he wrought the seats of antichrist.  
The Emperor took a long journey into Italy to submit himself unto the Pope: 
Vrspergen. Pag. 235. Sabellicus Enneadis. 9 Lib. 3. Carion. Helmoldus.  and being at Canusium, as it is said before, in the depth of winter, and In the hard frost, he waited patiently three days together with bare head, and bare foot before the Pope's gates, to win his favour. In the end Pope Hildebrande being sick, and finding himself in case not to live, sent unto the Emperor, and besought him Pardonne for all his Injuries. After that, the Popes, that succeeded, nevertheless continued this quarrel still. And thus by the Pope's entisement, The Son raised a power, and deposed his Father: The Bishops discobed him of his weed of State: & pulled the Crown Imperial from his head. The Ancient Reverend Prince, having now continued in his empire fifty whole years, bore all these things quietly, and said unto them, Videat Deus, & judicet: Let God see, and Judge your doings. At the last, being least naked, and out of all, he turned himself to the Bishop of Spira, and said unto him: Now I beseech you, for God's sake, give me a prebeude in your Church. For I am able to read, 
Matth. Palmer.  and can do some good in the choir. But he was kept still in close prison at Leodium, until he died. And being dead, he was kept five whole years together above ground, at the Pope's Commandment, & might not be buried: Such courtesy found that worthy Emperor at the Pope's hand, only for claiming of his right.  
Pope Hildebrande is commended by many for sundry virtues. But no man, say you, hath more set forth his worthiness, than Onuphrius, a man yet alive, and one of all men, that would be right loath in any point to displease the Pope. Perhaps he thought to win some credit, by adventuring his wits in a desperate cause: as did he, 
Synesius. Plato.  that bestowed so much eloquence in the praise of baldness: or he, that praised the Fever quartan: or Erasmus, that of late years wrote so much in the praise of Folly.  
The Heretic Ebion sommetime praised judas above all the Apostles: 
Pope Hildebrande.  And Libanius the Sophiste bestowed great praises upon julianus the Renegade. 
Socrat. Lib. 3. Cap. 22.  Certainly sundry Old Writers, of whom some knew Pope Hildebrande, and lived with him, 
Beno Cardinalis  have not given him such worthy praises. Beno Cardinalis saith, Hildebrande, being as yet but a Cardinal, beatte Pope Alexander with his fist, and kept him prisoner: Poisoned six Popes: Was a conjuror, and raised up Devils: and threw the Sacrament into the Fiere.  
Aventinus, 
Aventinus.  making his entry to speak of Pope Hildebrande, saith thus, Scripturus sum Reipublicae Christianae, Occidentalisque Ecclesiae, Romanique Imperij Bella, Caedes, Homicidia, Parricidia, Simultates, Odia, Stupra, Furta, Peculatus, Sacrilegia, Dissidia, Seditiones plusquam Civiles, etc. Now must I speak of Wars, Slaughters, Murders, killing of Fathers, Strives, Hatreads, Fornications, Robberies, Spoilinges of Common treasure, Spoilinges of Churches, Debates, and Seditions more than civil, which have happened in the Christian Common Weal, in the west Church, and in the empire of Rome.  
The Bishops at the Council of Brixia in Germany, 
Vrspergen.  touching Pope Hildebrande, pronounce thus: Nos eundem Hildebrandum procacissimun, etc. The same most Filthy and shameless Pope Hildebrande, a maintainer of Churchrobbinges, and housburninge, a defender of Murders, and Perjuries, calling in question the Catholic, and the apostolic Faith of the Body and Blood of Christ, an Old Disciple of Berengarius the Heretic, a manifest conjuror, laden with the Spirit of Satan, and therefore out of the true Faith, we Judge worthy to be deposed. What so ever points of dis●ant Onuphrius, your Scholefelowe, hath lately learned to play, this, M. harding, is that Holiness, and Worthiness, that sundry Old Writers have judged to be in Pope Hildebrande.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 1.  
Who, so ill-favouredly, and monstrously put the Emperor frederic's neck under his feet, and, as though that were not sufficient, added further this text out of the Psalms: Thou shalt go upon the Adder, and cockatrice, and shalt tread the Lion and Dragon under thy feet? Such an Example of scorning & contemning the Majesty of a Prince, as never before the time was heard tell of in any remembrance: except, I ween, either of Tamerlanes' the King of Scythia, a wild and a Barbarous Creature, or else of Sapor King of the Persians. All these notwithstanding were Popes, all Peter's Successors, all most Holy Fathers: whose several words we must take to be as good, as several Gosples.  

M. harding.  
Ye ask who put the Emperor frederic's neck under his feet, etc. Verily, who it was, I know not: neither yourselves, I believe.  
But what if ye bring good authority for it? So far as any man doth evil, be he Pope, be he Bishop, Emperor, or King, or what so ever he be, we defend him not. Popes themselves be men, and do not at 
‡ As though for the most part they lived like Angels.  all times behave themselves like Angels. But what is that to your purpose? Our matter is quaestio juris, non facti, 
In praescriptio. Contra Haeret.  once more I must tell it you. And if that were a fault in the Pope, we acknowledge it to be as Tertullian saith, Vitium conversationis, non predicationis: The fault of conversation, not of doctrine 
* What fault can ye find in the Pope's preaching? He never preacheth.  preached.  
All these (though ye scoff never so much) were Popes, 
treading on the emperors neck.  all were Peter's successors, and no withstanding any thing that ye can say against them to the contrary, without making a lie, 
* Untruth shameless, as it shall appear.  all were holy Fathers. But their several words we be not bound to esteem for so good as several Gospels. Never the less their public decrees we acknowledge and reverence, and think they ought to be obeyed.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The whole story hereof is thus reported by Carion: 
Carion  Vsus est Frederichus deiectione, & summa humilitate, etc. The Emperor Fredrick used all manner submissio, and Humility. For he came to Venice, and at the gates of the Church, falling down groveling before the Pope, he suffered himself to be trodden on by the Pope with his Feet. In the mean while the Pope caused Proclamation to be made by these words of the Prophet David, spoken of Christ, Thou shalt walk upon the venomous Asp, and the Basilisk: Thou shalt tread down the Lion and Dragon: And so at the last he Absolved him. 
Non tibi, sed Petro. Et mihi, & Petro.  The Emperor in the mean while said, he showed that humility, not unto Pope Alexander, but unto Peter. Thereunto the Pope answered, Et mihi, & Petro: Both to me, and to Peter too: placing himself before Peter.  
Thus Carion declareth the whole story with some particular Circumstances: but whether of favour, or hatred, I will not judge. Neither may it well be thought, the Pope used the Emperor thus of any great favour. But I think, that the Noble City of Venice, that caused this whole Tragedy to be set forth in Imagery in S. Marks Church there, for the everlasting remembrance of the fact, was not so carried away either with love of the one side, or with hatred of the other, that they would so openly have recorded a known Untruth.  
Thus Sapores sommetime, 
Aurelius' Victor. Pomponius Letus.  the proud King of Persia, when he had conquered Valerianus the Roman Emperor, and taken him prisoner, used him afterward most villainously, as his footestocke: and made him lie down groveling upon the ground, that he might set his foot on his neck, when so ever it should please him to mount on horseback.  
So Sesostris the great King of egypt, yokte Kings, 
Budaeus de Ass. Mathias à Michovia, De Sarmatia, Cap. 12.  and Princes together in Chains, and forced them by violence, to draw his Wagon. So the Emperor Henry the third, upon the day of his Coronation, caused Four Kings of Vindelicia, being then his prisoners, to carry Pans, and Cauldrons to his kitchen.  
But ye say, So far, as a man doth evil, be he Pope, be he Bishop, ye defend him not. The Popes themselves, ye say, be men: and do not always behave themselves, as Angels. Yet notwithstanding, immediately after ye say further, All these were Popes, and Peter's Successors, and Holy Fathers. This being true, it is no hard matter, for any Pope to be Holy. 
Platyna. Textor in Officina. Platyna. Platyna in Syluestro 3. Constantien. Concilium.  Pope john 12. was slain in advowtry: Pope Benedictus 9 lived without either Law, or Reason, and defiled Peter's Chair, with all kind of shame. Sine Lege, & Ratione vixit, & Petri Sedem omnibus probris foedavit. And in the end he took mon●e yenoughe, and sold the Popedom. Platyna saith, Popes than were elected, not for their Learning, and Holiness, but in respect of Money, and friendship. The Bishops in the Council of Constance pronounce thus of Pope john. 23. A tempore iwentutis suae fuit homo malae indolis, inverecundus, impudicus, etc. Et adhuc dicitur, tenetur, creditur, & reputatur pro tali, & ut talis: From the time of his youth he hath evermore been a man of ill disposition, unshamefast, unchaste, unhonest, etc. And stilhitherto he is named, holden, believed, taken, and reputed for such a one, 
The Pope is ever Holy.  and as such a one. some of them have lived filthily with their own daughters, and some worse, and in more beastly disorder. Platyna calleth them Monstra, & Portenta, Monsters, and ougle, and horrible, and il shapen Creatures. Yet, say you, all these were Peter's Successors, and Holy Fathers. And so must they needs be counted, although they had been a great deal worse. Dame Johan, I trow, ye will have foreprised out of this number. For notwithstanding she were a Holy Mother, yet ye may not well call her the Holy Father.  
In deed, 
De Maior. & Obedien. unam. Sanctam. In Glossa.  thus ye have it providentely noted upon your Decree tales: Est quaedam Spiritualitas secundum statum, quando est in statu Sanctissimo, & Spiritualissimo: & in hoc statu est Solus Summus Pontifex: There is a certain Spiritual Holiness according to the state most Holy, and most Spiritual: and in this state is only the Highest Bishop, that is, the Pope. And a Special Statute of praemunire in the Pope's behalf is written thus: Papa de Homicidio, 
Dist 40. Non no: In Glossa.  vel Adulterio, accusari non potest. unde Sacrilegij instar esset, disputare de facto suo. Nam facta Papae excusantur, ut Homicidia Samsonis, Furta Hebraeorun, Adulteria jacob: The Pope may never be accused, neither of advowtry, nor of Murder. Therefore it were as bad, as Churcherobbinge, to reason, or move matter of any his doings. For what so ever he do, it is excused, as are the Murders committed by Samson: the Robberies in egypt by the Jews: and y● Aduouteries of jacob. And again, 
Dist. 40. Non no:  In Papa si defint bona acquisita per meritum, sufficiunt quae à loci praedecessore praestantut. In the Pope if there want good deeds gotten by his own inerites. yet the good deeds done by S. Peter, that was his predecessor in that place, are sufficient.  
But S. Jerome saith far otherwise: 
Diff. 40. Non est facile.  Non Sanctorum filii sunt, qui tenent loca Sanctorum, Sed qui exercent opera eorum: They are not always the children of Holy men, that fit in the places of Holy men: but they, that do the works of Holy men.  
Therefore I may say to you, M. Harding, as S. Augustine saith to Emeritus the Heretic: Noli Frater, 
Augustin. Epist. 164. ad Emeritum.  noli obsecro: non te decet, eisi aliquem fortè deceat: si tamen quicquam deceat malos: Emeritum certè non decet defendere Optatum: Do not, my Brother, do not, I pray you. It be cometh you not: Although happily it may become some other man: If any thing may become the wicked: Yet verily it becometh not Emeritus, to defend Optatus (in open wickedness).  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieron. in Epist. ad Philemonein.  Si quis hominem, qui Sanctus non est, Sanctum esse crediderit, & Dei eum iunxerit socierari, Christum violate, cuius Corporis omnes membra sumus. Qui dicit, inquit, justum Iniustum, & Iniustum justum, abominabilis est uterque apud Deum. Et rursus, qui dicit, Sanctum non esse Sanctum: & rursus, non Sanctum esse Sanctum, 
Proverb. 17.  est abominabilis apud Deum: Who so beleeuèth, that man to be Holy, that is not Holy, and joineth the same man to the fellowship of God, doth villainy to Christ. For all we are members of his Body. It is written, Both he that calleth a just man Wicked, and he that calleth a Wicked man just, are both abominable before God. Likewise who so saith, a Holy man is not Holy: or, An Unholy man is Holy, is abominable before God.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 2. & 3.  
If we be counted Traitors, which do honour our Princes, which give them all obedience, as much as is due to them by God's word, and do pray for them: what kind of men than be these, which have not only done all the things before said, but also allow the same for specially well done? Do they then either this way instruct the people, as we do, to reverence their Magistrate? or can they with honesty appeach us as seditious persons, breakers of the common quiet, and despisers of Prince's Majesty?  
Truly we neither put of the yoke of obedience from us, neither do we disorder Realms: nor do we set up, or pull down Kings: nor do we translate governements: nor give we our kings poison to drink: nor yet hold forth to them our feet to kiss: nor opprobriously triumph over them: nor leap into their necks with our feet.  
This rather is our Profession, this is our Doctrine, that every soul, 
Chryso. in 13. ca ad Romanos.  of what calling so ever it be, be it Monk, be it Preacher, be it Prophet, be it Apostle, aught to be Subject to Kings and Magistrates: yea, and that the Bishop of Rome himself, unless he will seem greater than the Evangelists, than the Prophets, or the Apostles, ought both to acknowledge, and to call the Emperor, his Lord, and Master: 
Gregor. saepè in Epist.  as the Old Bishops of Rome, who lived in times of more grace, ever did. Our common teaching also is, that we ought so to obey Princes, as men sent of God: and, that who so withstandeth them, withstandeth God's ordinance. This is our Doctrine: & this is well to be seen both in our Books, and preachings, and also in the manners and modest behaviour of our people.  

M. harding.  
The Doctrine of obedience appertaineth specially to subjects. The Bishop of Rome sitting by due succession in the chair of Peter, 
* Untruth manifest, as it shall appear.  in spiritual causes can have no Superior. In temporal matters it may be, that in one age he hath acknowledged the Emperor, as the Lord of that province, where he lived. 
‡ Untruth enclosed: For they were subject likewise afterward.  as before Constantine all the Popes did live in subjection: and in an other age he may be Lord thereof himself. Likewise S. Gregory might call Mauritius his Lord, either of courtesy, or of custom: and yet our Holy Father Pius the fourth shall not be bound to do the like, in 
* O Grave Consideration.  consideration that the custom hath long sense been discontinewed. Neither did S. Gregory by that title of honour prejudicate unto himself in any spiritual jurisdiction. For that name notwithstanding, he governed the 
‡ Untruth evident unto a child.  whole Church, and complained that Maximus was made Bishop of Salonae a City in Illyrico, without his Authority, not regarding that Mauritius the Emperor was thought to have willed it so to be done. 
Lib. 4. Epistol. 34.  And therefore he writeth to Constantia the Empress, that for as much as neither he, nor his depute was made privy to it, that the thing had been done, which never was done before by any of the Princes, that were the emperors Predecessors.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What need you to speak so precisely, and so nicely of your Causes Spiritual, M. Harding? Ye know, that your Pope hath claimed, and yet claimeth his sovereignty, not only in Spiritual Causes, but also in Temporal: as it shall appear. He will say, ye are an ill proctor, and do him wrong, and go about to abridge his right, that will so lightly exclude that thing, that he so greedily will have included.  
You say, The Pope can have no Superioure in Spiritual Causes. And yet by the judgement of sundry your Doctors, even in Causes Spiritual, the Council is Superioure to the Pope, 
Concil. Constant. Concil. Basilien. Dist. 19 Anastasius. In Glossa.  and may summon him: and judge him: and give Sentence against him: and depose him: As hereafter it shallbe declared more at large. Thus is it noted of purpose upon your own Decrees: Cùm agitur de Fide, tunc Synodus Maior est quàm Papa: When the case is moved in a matter of Faith, (that is to say, in a cause Spiritual) then is the Council greater than y● Pope. And your own Panormitane saith, 
The Pope inferior to the Prince.  as it is alleged before, Papa tenetur confiteri: & in illo actu Sacerdos est Maior illo: The Pope is bound to make his Confession: and in so doing, the Priest is above the Pope. Again he saith, Papa non potest cogere Sacerdotem, 
Extra De ●oeniten. & Remiss. Omnis utriusque. Abb.  ut revelet Confessionem: quia in illo actu Sacerdos est Maior, quàm Papa. Children know, that Faith, and Confession are Spiritual Causes, and not Temporal. Ye see therefore, M. harding, by the judgement of your own Doctoures, that the Pope may have a Superioure, even in Spiritual causes.  
Now let us weigh the great force of your Reason. Thus you say:  
The Pope sitteth in Peter's Chair: Ergo, in Spiritual Causes he can have no Superioure.  
Who taught you thus to piece your Arguments? What Child, what Sophister would so reason? Who ever gave such Power, and Virtue to Peter's Chair?  
In Temporal matters, ye say, it may be, that in one age the Pope hath acknowledged the Emperor, as Lord of that Province, where he lived. Graceously considered. It was the Pope's Courtesy, & Humility, no doubt: but not his duty. Now be it, Aaron the High Bishop in Israel was contented to submit himself to Moses, and of duty to call him Lord.  
Tertullian saith thus, 
Exod 32. Tertullian. ad Scapulam.  Colimus Imperatorem, ut hominem à Deo secundum, & Solo Deo Minorem. Sic enim Imperator Omnibus Maior est, dum Solo vero Deo Minor est: We honour the emperors Majesty, as a man next unto God. For so is the Emperor greater than All men, while he is lease then only the True God.  
Origen saith, Petrus, 
Origen. ad Roman. Ca 13. li. 9  & johannes nihil habebant, quod Caesari redderent. Dixit enim Petrus, Aurum, & Argenium non habeo. Qui hoc non habet, nec Caesari habet quod reddat, nec unde Sublimioribus Potestatibus subiaceat. Qui verò habet Pecunian, aut Possessiones, aut aliquid in hoc saeculo, audiat, Omnis anima Potestatibus Sublimioribus subiaceat: Peter, 
Actor. 3.  and john had nothing to give unto the Emperor. For Peter said, Gold, and Silver I have none: which who so hath not, hath nothing to give to Caesar, not wherein he should be subject to the Higher Powers. But who so ever hath, either Money, or Lands, or any thing in this world, let him hear what S. Paul saith, Let every soul submit itself to the Higher Powers.  
And for proof of the practice hereof, 
2. q. 7. Nos si.  Pope Leo thus submitteth himself humbly unto Lews the Emperor: Nos, si incomperenter aliquid egimus, & in Subditis iustae Legis tramitem non conseruavimus, vestro admissorum nostrorum cuncta volumus emendare judicio. If we have done any thing disorderly, and over our Subjects have not kept the dew trade, and course of Law, by your majesties judgement we will redress all our faults.  
So likewise, long before Pope Leo, Pope Gregory wrote unto the Emperor Mauritius: 
Gregor. Lib. 3. Epis. 61. ad Mau● ritium Impera.  Ecce per me servum ultimum suum, & vestrum, respondebit Christus: Sacerdotes meos manui tuae commisi, etc. Ego quidem vestrae iussioni subiectus, Legem vestram per diversas terrarum partes transmitti feci: Behold, thus will Christ answer you by me, being both his, and your most humble Servant: I have committed my Priests unto thy hand. As for my part, I, being subject unto your majesties Commandment, have caused your Order to be proclaimed through divers parts of the world. 
Gregor. Lib. 3. Epist 64.  Again he saith, Christus dominari Imperatorem, non solùm Militibus, sed etiam Sacerdotibus concessit: Christ hath given power unto the Emperor, to bear rule, not only over soldiers, but also over Priests.  
Again he saith, 
Grego. ad Maurittum Impera.  Et Imperatori obedientiam praebui: & pro Deo, quod sensi, minimè tacni: I have showed my duty towards my Lord the Emperor: and touching God, I have not concealed, what I thought. And this is it, that S. Paul saith, ●et every soul be subject to the Higher Powers. Upon which words S. Chrysostom saith, 
The Pope inferior to the Emperor.  Etiamsi sis Apostolus, etiamsi evangelista, etiamsi Propheta, five quisquis tamdem fueris. Neque enim Pietatem subvertit ista Subiectio: Though thou be an Apostle, though thou be an Evangelist, though thou be a Prophet, or what one so ever else thou be, 
Chrysost. ad Roman. Homil. 23.  yet be thou subject to the Higher Powers. For this Subjection is no hindrance to Godliness.  
But afterward the Popes began to look aloft, & both to say themselves, & also to cause others their parasites to say, 
johan. Maior. 4. Sent. q. 2. dist. 20. Sex. Lib. 3. Ti. 16 in Glossa.  Romanus pontifex supra Reges in Temporalibus: The Bishop of Rome is above Kings, even in things Temporal. Again, Papa totius orbis obtinet potestatem: The Pope hath the power of all the world. Again, Solus Papa est verus Dominus Temporalium: Only the Pope is the very true Lord of Temporal things. 
johan. De Parisijs, de potestate Papae.  And again, Omnis potestes secularis immediatè data est Papae: All manner Temporal Power is given immediately to the Pope.  
Ye say, 
Heruaeus de potesta. Pap. ca 19  Pope Gregory might call the Emperor Mauritius, his Lord, (not of duty, but) either of Custom, or of Courtesy. Yet, (say you further) our holy Father Pope Pius the Fourth shall not now be bound to do the like. Here, I beseech you, M. harding, What strange kind of Spiritual Power hath Pope Pius now g●tten, that was not before in Pope Gregory? what Learning? what Virtue? what Worthiness? what Holiness? What good reason can ye allege, wherefore Christ, and his Apostles, and all other Holy Fathers, and Martyrs should be Subiect● to the Prince, and only your late Popes, and Cardinals should stand so frèe?  
Ye say, This Custom hath long sithence been discontinewed: And in one age the Pope may acknowledge thee Emperor, as the Lord of the Land, where he dwelleth: and in an other age he may be Lord thereof himself. That is to say, In one age the Pope may be subject to the Emperor: and in an other age the Emperor may be subject to the Pope. This is your whole, and only reason. Thus, we see, your obedience towards your Prince goeth not by God's Word, but only by Ages. Therefore we may say to you, as S. Hilary sommetime said to y● Arian Heretics, Fides temporum est, 
Hilarius ad Constantium Impera. Psal. 116.  non Euangeliorum: Your Faith passeth by Ages, and not by Gospels. And yet it is written, Veritas Domini manet in Aeternum: The Truth of our Lord endureth (not for one age, or other, but) for Ever. It were a high point of Learning for an Astronomer skilfully to Prognosticate, between y● Emperor and the Pope, whether of them should be Dominus Anni. How be it, here may I well and justly answer you with these words of S. bernard: Omnis anima potestatibus sublimioribus subdita sit. 
Bernar. Epist. 42. ad Archiepisco. Senonens.  Si omnis, & vestra. Quis vos excepit ab universitate? Si quis tentat Excipere, conatur Decipere. Noli illorum acquiescere consilijs: qui cùm sint Christiani, Christi tamen vel sequi facta, vel obsequi dictis probro ducunt. Ipsi sunt, qui vobis dicere solent, Seruate vestrae Sedis honorem, etc. Estis vos vestro Praedecessore impotentior? Si non crescit per vos, non decrescat per vos Hae illi. At Christus aliter jussit, & gessit. Reddite, inquit, quae sunt Caesaris, Caesari: & que sunt Dei, Deo: Let every soul be subject to the Higher Powers. If every soul, then is your soul subject, as well as others. For (notwithstanding your Dignity) yet who hath excepted you from this generality? He that would except you from the Obedience of the Prince, seeketh to deceive you. give no ear to their Counsels. For, notwithstanding they be Christians, yet they think it a shame, either to follow Christ's deeds, or to obey Christ's Words. They use to say unto you, o sir, maintain the honour of your See, etc. Are not you so good, as your predecessor? If your See be not advanced by you, yet let it not be abased by you. Thus say they. But Christ hath both taught, and wrought far otherwise. For he saith, give to Caesar, that belongeth to Caesar: and give to God, that belongeth to God.  
Likewise he saith again unto Pope Eugenius, 
The Pope Limited to a part.  A te tamen Mosiste, vel potiùs Mors ista non coepit? utinam in te desinat. Vides omnem Ecclesiasticum zelum feruere sola pro Dignitate tuenda? 
Bernar. De Consideratione, li. 4.  Honori totum datur: Sanctitati nihil, vel parum. Si, causa requirente, paulò submissiùs agere, ac socialiùs te habere teniaveris, Absit, inquiunt: Non decet: Tempori non congruit: Maiestati non convenit: Quam geras personam attendito: But ye will say, this Manner, or rather, this Death, began not of you: Would God it might end in you. Do ye not see, that all your Ecclesiastical zeal, and care standeth only in maintenance of Honour? Upon Honour all together is bestowed: upon Holiness, either nothing, or very little. If, upon occasion, ye would somewhat submit yourself, and deal familiarly, O, do not so, say they: It is not meet: It is not agreeable to the time: It is not convenient for your Majesty: Consider well, what state ye bear. Such good Lessons ye have, where with to nurture, and to train the Pope. And if he happen of himself to be a fool, by such schooling ye are able to make him mad.  
But Gregory, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 34. Artic. 4. Diu. 25.  ye say, being Pope, governed the whole Church of God. For he complaineth, that Maximus was made Bishop of Salonae in Illyrico without his allowance. This Authority is answered in my Former Reply. But how holdeth this Argument, M. harding? Gregory complaineth, that Maximus was made Bishop of Salonae in Illyrico without his allowance: Ergo, Gregory ruled the whole Church?  
What School will allow you such Conclusions? It is known, that in the Nicene Council the charge of the whole Church was committed to three Principal patriarchs, whereof the Patriarch of Rome was the first: the second of Alexandria: the third of Antioch. And each of these three was limited severally to his own peculiar portion. 
Nilus De Primatu Roma. Pon.  Nilus' a Greek Writer saith, Cùm aliae Regiones assignatae sint Romano, aliae Alexandrino, aliae Constantinopolitano, non magis hi sub illo sunt, quam ille sub hisce: For ás much as certain Countries are limited to the Bishop of Rome: certain to the Bishop of Alexandria: and certain to the Bishop of Constantinople, they are now no more under him, than he under them.  
As for the Churches of Illyricum, they were specially appointed to the Bishop of Rome, as it appeareth by the Epistle of Pope Damasus, written to the Bishops of Illyricum: 
Sozomen. Lib. 6. Cap 23.  Par est omnes, qui sunt in Orb Romano, Magistros consentire: It is meet, that all the Teachers, that be within the Roman Province, agree together. So saith Athanasius, 
Athanas ad Solitariam vitam agentes.  Roma est Metropolis Romanae Ditionis: Rome is the Mother Church (not of the whole world, but) of the Province of Rome. Nicephorus saith, justinianus decrevit, ut Iustiniana Prima haberet locum Sedis Apostolicae Romae: utque esset Caput sibi ipsi cum plena potestate: 
Nicephor. Lib. 17. Cap. 28.  justinianus the Emperor appointed, that the City called justiniatia Prima should have the place of the apostolic See of Rome: and that with full power it should be Head unto itself. Neither durst your forged, and countrefeite Anacletus, to claim the jurisdiction of all the whole world, but only a portion of the same. For thus he saith, 
Anaclet. Epist. 3. Dist. 93. juxta Sanctorum.  Omnes Episcopi, qui huius Apostolicae Sedis ordinationi subjacent: All Bishops (not through the world, but) that are Subject to the ordination of this apostolic See of Rome. So likewise S. Gregory in his complaint unto the Empress, touching this same Maximus, the Bishop of Salonae, speaketh not of all the Bishops, that were throughout the whole Church of God, but only of such Bishops, as were limited unto his particular charge. For thus he maketh his complaint, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 34.  Si Episcopi mei me despiciant etc. If mine own Bishops (lying within mine own peculiar jurisdiction) shall despice me.  
Therefore your Divinity wanted Logic, M. harding, when ye framed your Argument in this sort, Gregory complained of Maximus etc. Ergo, Gregory governed the whole Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 1. &. 2.  
But where they say, we have gone away from the Unity of the Catholic Church, this is not only a matter of malice, but besides, though it be most untrue, yet hath it some show and appearance of truth. For the common people, and ignorant multitude give not credit only to things true, and of certainty, but even to such things also, if any chance, which may seem to have but a resemblance of truth. Therefore we see, that subtle, and crafty persons, when they had no truth on their side, have ever contended, & hotly argued with things likely to be true, to the intent they, which were not able to espy the very ground of the matter, might be carried away at least with some pretence & probability, or likelihood of the Truth. In time's paste, whereas the first Christians, our Forefathers, in making their Prayers to God, did turn themselves towards the east, there were that said, they worshipped the Son, 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  & reckoned the same as their God. Again, where our Forefathers said, that as touching Immortal & everlasting Life, they lived by none other means, but by the Flesh, and Blood of that Lamb without spot, that is to say, of our savour jesus Christ, the envious Creatures, & Enemies of Christ's Cross, whose only care was to bring Christian Religion into slander by all manner of ways, made the people believe, that they were wicked persons, that they sacrificed men's Flesh, 
Ibidem.  and drunk men's Blood. Also where our Forefathers said, that, before God, there is neither Man, nor Woman, and that for atteininge to the true Righteousness, there is no distinction at all of persons: &, whereas they called one an other indifferently by the name of Sisters, and Brothers, there wanted not men, which forged false tales upon the same, saying that the Christians made no difference among themselves, either of age, or of kind: but like brute beasts without regard, had to do one with an other. 
Ibidem.  And, whereas, to pray, and to hear the Gospel, they met often together in secret, and byplaces, because Rebels sometime were wont to do the like, therefore Rumours were every were spread abroad, that they made privy confederacies, & took counsel together, either to kill the Magistrates, or to subvert the Common Wealth. And, whereas in celebrating the Holy Mysteries after Christ's Institution, they took Bread and Wine, they were therefore thought of many, 
Augustin. Contra Faust. Lib. 27. Cap. 13.  to worship, not Christ, but Bacchus, and Ceres: for so much as those vain Gods were worshipped of the Heathen in like sort, after a profane Superstition, with Bread & Wine. These things were believed of many, not because they were true in deed (for what could be more untrue?) but because they were like to be true, and through a certain shadow of truth might the more easily deceive the simple. On this fashion likewise do these men slander us as Heretics, and say that we have left the Church and Fellowship of Christ: not because they think it is true, for they do not much force of that, but because to ignorant folk, it might perhaps some way appear true.  
We have in deed put ourselves apart, not as Heretics are wont, from the Church of Christ, but as all good men ought to do, from the infection of naughty persons, and Hypocrites. Nevertheless in this point they triumph maruciloully, that they be the Church, that their Church is Christ's Spouse, the Pillar of Truth, the Ark of No: and, that without it there is no hope of Salvation. Contrariwise, they say, that we be Renegates: that we have torn Christ's seat: that we are plucked quite of from the Body of Christ, & have forsaken the Catholic Faith. And, when they leave nothing unspoken, that may never so falsely and maliciously be said against us, yet this one thing are they never able truly to say, that we have swerved, either from the Word of God, or from the Apostles of Christ, or from the Primitive Church. Surely we have ever judged the Primitive Church of Christ's time, of the Apostles, and of the Holy Fathers, to be the Catholic Church: neither make we doubt to name it, noah's Ark, Christ's Spouse, the Pillar and upholder of all Truth: nor yet to fix therein the whole mean of our Salvation. It is doubtless an odious matter, for one to leave the fellowship whereunto he hath been accustomed, and specially of those men, who, though, they be not, yet at least seem to be, and be called Christians. And, to say truly, we do not despise the Church of these men (how so ever it be ordered by them now a days) partly for the names sake itself, and partly for that the Gospel of jesus Christ hath once been therein truly, and purely set forth. Neither had we departed therefrom, but of very necessity, and much against our wills.  

M. harding.  
We grant, that in old time slanders were made upon the Faithful. But no like slander is made by us upon you in the matter, whereof ye speak. For let us grant, that ye have in deed put yourselves apart, and are gone from the contagion of naughty persons and Hypocrites. This is the very thing, we lay to your charge. For though we were such, as for a great number ye shall never be able to prove, yet by Christ's own sentence ye must do that, 
* The same Scribes, and Phariseis commanded the people to refuse Christ's company: johan. 9 & 12. And was the people bound to follow them?  which they that sit in the chair of Moses bid you do, although they be Hypocrites, as the Scribes and Phariseis were, of whom Christ spoke etc. But it shall be enough for you to do, as the Successors of Peter bid you to do, and so to follow their sayings, and not their doings.  
The Primitive Church is continued with our time, by the Successors of S. Peter. for whose Faith never to fail Christ prayed, and whom 
‡ Untruth. For Christ never gave Peter any such special Privilege.  only he made shepherd to feed all his Flock of Sheep and Lambs. Christ 
* A strange kind of Divinity: such as Peter, and Paul● never knew.  now requireth of you, not to obey Peter and Paul, but to obey him, who sitteth in their chair. Where ye say, it is an odious matter to forsake us, and yet have forsaken us: where ye confess that ye despise not the Church, we be of, and yet grant that ye have departed from it: how standeth this together? Remember ye what ye say? Know ye what ye do? Who will regard your word, which with one breath say, and unsay? If it be odious, why do ye it? If ye despise not the Church, why depart ye from it?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Christ saith, 
Departing from the Pope.  The Scribes, and Phariseis sit in Moses Chair: Do that they say, but do not, that they do. Ergo, say you, We may not depart away from the Pope. How so ever it far with your Conclusion, M. harding, verily in your premises ye compare the Pope, and his Cardinals with the Scribes, and Phariseis. And yet the Scribes, and Phariseis sat in the Chair, and taught the Law: Your Pope, and Cardinals sit still, and teach nothing. notwithstanding, let us well allow of this Comparison. 
Matth. 23.  Ye may remember, that Christ also saith, Woe be unto you, ye Scribes, and Phariseis, that shut up the Kingdom of Heaven before men: and neither do you enter in yourselves: nor will you suffer other, that feign would enter. Woe be unto you, ye blind Guides: Woe be unto you, that have taken away the key of Knowledge. Likewise he saith of them unto his Disciples: Beware of the leaven of the Scribes, and Phariseis: Let them go: 
Matth. 16. Matth. 15.  Blind they are, and the Leaders of the blind.  
To sit in Moses Chair, was, truly, and rightly to instruct the people, and to open unto them the Law of Moses. 
August. De Sermone Domi. in Monte, Lib. 2.  S. Augustine saith, Hoc ipsum, quòd bona dicebant, & ea, quae dicebant, utiliter audiebantur, & fiebant, non erat ipsorum. Cathedram enim, inquit, Mosi sedent: That they spoke good things unto the people, and that the things, that they said, were profitable to the hearers, and doers of the same, it was not of themselves. For Christ saith, They sit upon Moses Chair. Again he saith, Sedendo super Cathedram Mosis, legem Dei docent. 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 46.  Ergo per illos Deus docet. Sua verò illi si velint docere, nolite audire: nolite facere. Certè enim tales sua quaerunt, non quae jesu Christi: sitting upon Moses Chair, they teach the Law of God: Therefore it is God, that teacheth by the mean of them. But if they will teach you things of their own, then hear them not: then do it not. For certainly such men seek their own: and not the things, that pertain to Christ Jesus. Ye see therefore, M. harding, we are bound to hear the Pope, and his Cardinals, and other like Scribes, and Phariseis, not absolutely, or without exception, what so ever they list to say: but only so long, as they teach the Law of God. Further then that, S. Augustine saith, We may neither hear them, nor follow their Counsel.  
Hereunto ye thought it good, to add more force, as a supply, to aid your wants. Christ said unto Peter, I have prayed for thee, that thy Faith shall never fail. Ergo, say you, The Pope can never err. This way of reasoning, I trow, ye Learned of Peter de Palude a worthy doctor of your side. For so he reasoneth: Ego rogavi pro te, 
Petrus De Palude, de Potestate pp. Articul. 4.  Petre, ut Fides tua non deficiat. Ex quo habetur, quòd Romana Ecclesia in Fide errare non potest: nec de eius Fide dubitare licet: Sed in omnibus est sequenda: Peter, I have Prayed for thee, that thy Faith may not fail. By these words we are taught, that the Church of Rome cannot err in Faith. Neither is it lawful to doubt of the Faith of that Church: but in all causes we are bound to follow it. 
Augu. De quaest. Novi Testamen. quae. 75.  But S. Augustine saith, Nunquid pro Petro rogabat: pro johann, & jacobo non rogabat? Vt coeteros raceam: To leave the rest, did Christ Pray for Peter? and did he not Pray for john, and james? Again he saith, 
August. De Verbis Domini in Euange. secund. Lucam. Sermo. 36.  Hac nocte postulavit Satanas vexare vos, ficut triticum: & egorogavi Patrem pro vobis, ne deficiat Fides Vestra: This night hath Satan begged to threashe you, as if it were wheat: but I have Prayed to my Father (not for Peter only, but) for you, that your Faith may not fail. So saith Origen, Nunquid audebimus dicere, quòd adversus unum Petrum non praevaliturae sint portae Inferorum: adversus coeteros autem Apostolos, 
Origen. in Matth. Tract. 1.  ac Praefectos Ecclesiae sint praevaliturae? An Petro Soli dantur à Christo claves Regni Coelorum? Nec alius Beatorum quisquam eas accepturus est? Omnia, quaeque priùs dicta sunt, quaeque sequuntur, Velut ad Petrum dicta, sunt omnium Communia: May we dare to say, that the gates of Helle shall not prevail Only against Peter: but shall prevail against the other Apostles, and Rulers of the Church? Were the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven given only to Peter? And shall no Holy man else receive the same? Nay, all the things, both that were said before, and also that follow after, as spoken to Peter, are Common, and belong unto al. Therefore, as ye say of the Church of Rome, so may we say likewise of the Church of Jerusalem, where S. james was: and of the Church of Ephesus, where S. john was, and of other the like apostolic Churches, notwithstanding they be now in the possession of the Turk, and have received thee Religion of Mahomete, yet, because Christ hath once prayed for them, The Faith of them shall never fail.  
Further ye tell us, It shallbe enough for you, to do, as the successors of Peter bid you to do. Christ now requireth not of you to obey Peter, and Paul: but to obey him, that sitteth in their Chair. If this way be as sure, as it is short, then is there no doubt, but all is well. Though we believe neither Peter, nor Paul, nor what so ever is written in God's Word, yet, say you, If we follow the Pope, we cannot err. For thus much, M. Harding, ye are able to warrant us by your Gospel, that Christ requireth not us now, to be obedient to Peter, and Paul, but only to the Pope's Holiness, that keepeth Residence in their Chair. This is your Divinity: these are your words. If ye ever recant the same, ye mar the flower of your Market. We need not now to say, Thus saith the Lord: it shallbe sufficient for us, 
Galat. 1.  to say, Thus saith the Pope. Yet S. Paul so far adventureth the Truth, and certainty of his Doctrine, that he doubteth not to say, If an Angel from Heaven preach unto you any other Gospel, than we have Preached, accursed be he. 
Chrysost. in 1. Caput ad Galat.  Upon which words S. Chrysostom hath noted thus: Non dixit, Si Contraria annuntiaverint, aut totum evangelium subverterint: verùm, Si paulùm Euangelizaverint praeter evangelium, quod accepistis, etiamsi quiduis labefactaverint, Anathema sint: S. Paul saith not, If they Preach Contrary to the Gospel, or overthrow the whole Gospel: but, If they Preach any little thing besides the Gospel, that ye have received: if they overthrow any thing, what so ever it be, accursed be they. 
Dist. 36. Ca final.  Therefore S. Jerome saith, Ea doceat Episcopus, quae à Deo didicerit, non ex proprio cord etc. Let the Bishop teach those things, that he hath learned of God: and not of his own heart, or fancy.  
Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in 2. Timoth. Homi. 2.  Plus aliquid dicam: Ne Paulo quidem obedire oporret, si quid dixerit proprium, si quid humanum: sed Apostolo Christum in se loquentem circumferenti: I will tell you a greater matter: We may not obey, no not S. Paul himself, if he speak any thing of his own, or if he speak only as a man: But we must believe the Apostle of Christ, carrieinge Christ about speaking within him.  
And therefore Panormitane saith, 
De Electio. & Elec. potesta. Significasti. Abb.  In concernentibus Fidem, etiam dictum unius privati esset praeferendum dicto Papae: si ille moveretur melioribus rationibus Novi, & Veteris Testamenti, quàm Papa: In matters concerning Faith, the saying of one Private man were to be heard before the saying of the Pope: if the same Private man were moved with better reasons of the New, and Old Testament, than the Pope. But, that we should no longer obey Peter, and Paul, but give ear only to him, that is cropen into their Chair, it is such Divinity, as neither Peter, nor Paul ever taught us.  
last of all, as upon some good advavantage, ye begin to Triumph. Remember ye, say ye, what ye say? know ye, what ye do? who will regard your word, which with one breath say, and unsay? If it be odious to leave our fellowship, why do ye it? If ye despise not the Church, why depart ye from it? To Say, and Unsay, it is your property, M. Harding: it is not ours. ye have Said, & Vnsaide, & yet, were it not for shame, it is thought ye would be content to Say again. We despise not the Church: it is the House of God: But we mislike your defacing, and disordering of the Church. Christ reproved the Priests, and Phariseis, for that they had turned the Temple of God into a cave of thieves: 
Matth. 21.  And yet nevertheless he despised it not: but said it was his Father's house. To leave the wicked fellowship of them, that bear a name, and show of Godliness, it seemeth odious before men: 
2. john.  but before God it is not odious. S. john saith, Who so ever is such a one, bid him not, God speed. For who so saith, God speed unto him, is partaker of his ill. 
1. Corinth. 5. Apocalyp. 18.  S. Paul saith, I warn you, that you receive no meat with any such. And God himself saith, come out from her, o my people, lest ye be partakers of her sins, and lest ye receive of her Plagues.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 3.  
But I put case, an Idol be set up in the Church of God, and the same Desolation, which Christ prophesied to come, stood openly in the Holy Place? What if some Thief, or Pirate invade, and possess noah's Ark? These folks, as often as they tell us of the Church, mean thereby themselves alone, and attribute all these titles to their own selves, boasting, as they did in times passed, which cried, The Temple of the Lord, The Temple of the Lord: or, as the Phariseis, and Scribes did, which craked, they were Abraham's Children. Thus with a gay, and jolly show deceive they the simple, and seek to choke us with the bare name of the Church. Much like as if a Thief, when he hath gotten into an other man's house, and by violence either hath thrust out, or slain the owner, should afterward assign the same house to himself, casting forth of possession the right inheritor: Or, if antichrist, when he had once entered into the Temple of God, should afterward say, This house is mine own, and Christ hath nothing to do withal. For these men now, after they have left nothing remaining in the Church of God, that hath any likeness of his Church, yet will they seem the patrons, and the valiant maineteiners of the Church: Very like as Gracchus amongst the Romans stood in Defence of the Treasury, notwithstanding with his prodigality, and fond expenses, he had utterly wasted the whole stock of the Treasury. And yet was there never any thing so wicked, or so far out of reason, but lightly it might be covered, and Defended by the name of the Church. For the Wasps also make honycombes, as well as Bees: and wicked men have companies like to the Church of God. Yet for all that, They be not straight way the people of God, which are called the people of God: neither be they all Israelites, as many as are come of Israel the Father. 
August. in Sermon. Contra Arianos, to. 6.  The Arians, notwithstanding they were Heretics, yet bragged they, that they alone were the Catholics, 
Augustinus in Ep. 48 add Vincen. Epiphani. lib. 1. Hear. 30.  calling all the rest, now Ambrosians, now Athanasians, now johannites. And Nestorius, as saith Theodorete, for all that he was an Heretic, yet covered he himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is to wit, 
Sozomen. lib. 6. cap. 38.  with a certain cloak, & colour of the true and Right Faith. Ebion, though he agreed in opinion with the Samaritans, yet, as saith Epiphanius, he would needs be called a Christian. The Mahometistes at this day, for all that all Histories make plain mention, and themselves also cannot deny, but they took their fist beginning of Agar the bond woman, yet for the very name, and stocks sake, choose they rather to be called Saracenes, as though they came of Sara the free woman, and Abraham's true and lawful wife. So likewise the false Prophets of all ages, which stood up against the Prophets of God, and resisted Esaias, jeremy, Christ, and the Apostles, at no time craked of any thing so much, as they did of the name of the Church. And for none other cause did they so fiercely vex them, and call them Renegates, and Apostatas, then for that they forsook their fellowship, and kept not thordinances of the Elders. Wherefore, if we would follow the judgements of those men only, who then governed the Church, and would respect nothing else, neither God, nor his word, it must needs be confessed, that the Apostles were rightly, and by just Law condemned of them to death, because they fell from the Bishops and Priests, that is, you must think, from the Catholic Church: and because they made new alterations in Religion, contrary to the Bishops, and priests wills, yea, and for all their spurning so earnestly against it.  

M. harding.  
What a foolish putcase, and what a fond what if is that, to say, What if a pirate invade the Ark of No? 
‡ As though S. Paul had not warned us, that antichrist shall sit, and show himself in the place of Christ.  As though God sat not at the stern, and had the bel●e in his own hand.  

* Ergo antichrist shall sit in the Pope's chair. 2. Thess. 2  antichrist can not sit in the temple of God, 
* But what if Christ's Vicar himself be antichrist?  until the vicar of Christ, who keepeth possession, be thrown out, and then will Christ come with his Angels to destroy the wicked man with the breath of his mouth. Ye that are the berbingers of antichrist, are not yet able to cast out the lieutenant of Christ. 
Math. 24.  Ye heave at the underministers. Your master will accompleshe all iniquity, and he shallbe the desolation that Christ spoke of. We understand, what ye shoot at. But ye are ashamed to utter plainly your blasphemy. 
‡ Untruth, Malicious and slanderous.  Ye would say (as it may seem) if ye durst, that Christ is the desolation, and that Antichrist is the true God. 
* Ergo ye bely us, although not greatly.  In effect I do not greatly bely you.  
Neither if the Apostles might go from the Bishops of Moses law, therefore may ye depart from the vicar of Christ. For the law of Moses is changed, and the priesthood of Aaron is transferred: But the law and priesthood of jesus Christ tarrieth for ever, as David said, Thou art priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech. Ye haut too manifestly.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
antichrist, ye say, cannot sit in the Temple of God, until the Vicar of Christ, who keepeth possession, be thrown out. So the old Troyans' sometime said, Their City could never miscarry, while their Palladium remained amongst them. But who told you these strange news, 
To sit in the place of Christ.  M. Harding? Who made the Pope Christ's Vicar general throughout the whole Church? 
2. Thess 2.  Or who bade him keep possession in steed of Christ? Must we needs think, that the whole state of Christ's Church, hangeth only of the Pope? Or that, if the Pope were not the Pope, the Church of Christ were not the Church? Or, must your simple word now be taken for a prophesy, that antichrist shall never enter into God's Temple, before the Pope be thrown out? This Fable would have been better furnished with more credit.  
Verily whereas we say, we put case, an Idol be set up in the Church of God: Or, what if some Thief or Pirate invade and possess noah's Ark, neither is this, what if, so fond as you would seem to make it: nor this, Put case, so impossible. For S. Paul saith, antichrist shall sit in the Church of God, and show himself above all that is worshipped, or called God: that is to say, Being a Thief, and a Pirate, he shall enter perforce into noah's Ark.  
Now, M. harding, If antichrist may sit in the place of God, much more may he sit in the place of Peter. I will not say, the Pope is antichrist. God will reveal him in his time: 
Apocalyp. 13.  and he shallbe known. S. john saith, This is the wisdom: who so hath understanding, let him reckon the number of the Beast. Upon which words, 
Irenaeus, li. 5. cap. ultimo.  Irenaeus well-near fifteen hundred years ago, saith thus: The name of antichrist, expressed by that number shallbe, Latinus: And he addeth further, Hoc valdè verisimile est. Quoniam verissimum Regnum hoc habet vocabulum.  
S. 
Gregor. lib. 4. Epist 38 Sacerdotum paratus est exercitus. Irenae lib. 5. Cap. penulti. joachimus Abbess.  Gregory saith, He is antichrist, that shall claim to be called the Universal Bishop: and shall have a Guard of Priests to attend upon him. Again, Irenaeus saith, Antichristus, cùm sit servus, tamen adorari vult, ut Deus. antichrist, notwithstanding he be but a slave, yet, he willbe worshipped, as if he were God. joachimus Abbess saith, Antichristus iampridem natus est Romae, & altiùs extolletur in Sede Apostolica: antichrist is long sithence borne in Rome, and yet shall be higher anaunced in the apostolic See.  
Thus is he described, that shall sit in the place of Christ, and shall maintain possession against Christ. 
2. Thess. 2.  But, Christ shall come with his holy Angels, and shall destroy him with the breath of his mouth.  
That ye allege of the Priesthood of Melchisedech, serveth you here to small purpose. We know, that, not the Pope, but Christ alone is a Priest for ever, 
Augustin in lib. 83. quaesti. quae. 61.  according to the Order of Melchisedech. S. Augustine saith: Ipse est Sacerdos noster in aeternum, secundum Ordinem Melchisedech, qui semetipsum obtulit holocaustum pro peccatis nostris: & eius Sacrificii Similitudinem celebrandam in suae Passionis Memoriam commendavit: Christ is our Priest for ever after the Order of Melchisedech, which hath offered up himself a Sacrifice for our sins: and hath delivered unto us a Similitude, or Likeness of that Sacrifice, to be done in remembrance of his Passion.  
Likewise again he saith, 
In eadem quaestione.  Holocausti eius Imaginem ad Memoriam Passionis suae in Ecclesia celebrandam dedit, ut esset Sacerdos in aeternum: non secundum Ordinem Aaron, sed secundum ordinem Melchisedech: Christ hath given an Image, or Resemblance of that Sacrifice, to be kept in the Church in Remembrance of his Passion, that he might be a Priest for ever: not after the Order of Aaron, but after the Order of Melchisedech.  
How be it, 
Articul. 17. Division. 15.  touching this whole matter, I have answered more at large in my Former Reply.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 4.  
Wherefore, like as it is written, that Hercules in old time was forced, in striving with Antaeus that huge Giant, to lift him quite up from the Earth, that was his Mother, ere he could conquert him: even so must our Adversaries be heaved from their Mother, that is, from this vain colour, and shadow of the Church, wherewith they so disguise, and defend themselves: otherwise they can not be brought to yield unto the Word of God. And therefore saith jeremy the Prophet, Make not such great boast, that the Temple of the Lord is with you. This is but a vain confidence: these are but lies. The Angel also saith in the Apocalyps: They say, they be jews: but they be the synagogue of Satan. And Christ said to the Phariseis, when they vaunted themselves of the kindred, 
john. 8.  and blood of Abraham: Ye are of your father the Devil: For you resemble not your Father Abraham: As much to say, as, Ye are not the men ye would so feign be called: ye beguile the people with vain titles: and abuse the name of the Church, to the overthrowing of the Church.  

M. harding.  
Heave at us, whiles ye will, and whiles ye may, ye shall never remove us. In which steadfastness we trust to stand by God's grace to the last breath. Heave at us with all the forces of your cunning, of your malice, of your flattery, of your policies, and with what so ever ingens ye have: ye shall never be able to overthrow the house of our consciences builded upon the sure rock. 
Math. 7.  Let the gourders of rain come down from you and all other Heretics, let the floods of worldly rages thrust, let the winds of Satan's temptations blow their worst, this house shall not be overthrown.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O M. 
Rom. 11.  harding, S. Paul saith unto you, Noli altum Sapere, sed time: Presume not of yourself: but stand in awe. Such words would rather have becomed them, 
Hierem. 44  that said sommetime unto the Prophet Hieremie, Verbum, quòd locutus es nobis in Nomine Domini, non audiemus: Sed faciendo faciemus omne verbum, quòd egredietur de ore nostro: We will never hear the word, that thou speakest unto us in the name of the Lord. 
Luke. 19 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  But we will surely do, what so ever thing shall pass out of our own mouths. Thus it is written of them, that said, The Lord shall not bear rule over, nor master us. With like mildness of spirit the wilful Philosopher said, Non persuadebis, etiamsi persuaseris: Ye shall not make me believe it, no though I do believe it.  
As Constancy in good things is a virtue, so frowardness, and wilfulness is a vice. Vow not thus your own destruction. He that is fallen, may rise again. The Lord is able to raise you up: and to make you a vessel of his glory. Ye know not, to what good purpose God hath appointed you. Speak not over much of the strength of your Mount. You know, upon how light occasions it hath been moved. Follow rather S. Paul's counsel, and with fear, and trembling work your own Salvation. 
Philip. 2. Hieremi. 10. Luke. 11.  The way, ye walk in, is not your own: Your heart is in the hand of God. Suffer God's Truth to prevail: And understand, that the kingdom of God is come unto you.    

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division. 1.  
So that these men's part had been, 
I have prayed for thee, Peter etc.  first to have clearly, and truly proved, that the romish Church is the true and right instructed Church of God: and that the same, as they do order it at this day, doth agree with the Primitive Church of Christ, of the Apostles, and of the Holy Fathers, which we doubt not, but was in deed the True Catholic Church.  

M. harding.  
Ye would us to prove, that the Roman Church is the true Church of God. Ye grant, that once it was the true Church of God. And the Gospel showeth, that Christ prayed for it in S. Peter, who made his successors there. 
Luke. 22.  
* This is a very vain hope. For Christ prayed for the other Apostles no less, then for Peter.  What followeth hereof, but that it must needs abide as true, as ever it was, except Christ's prayer were not heard? S. Paul likewise wttnesseth, that the Roman Faith is preached in the universal world, 
Rom. 1. Li. 4. Epi. 8.  giving a manifest prophecy, that the Roman Faith and the Catholic Faith should be alone. S. Cyprian calleth the agreeing with the Bishop of Rome and communicating with him, Catholicae Ecclesiae unitatem, etc. The allowing and firm holding of the unity of the Catholic Church. And writing to Antonianus in the same book, he accounteth it for one thing, to Communicate with Cornelius the B. of Rome, and to Communicate with the Catholic Church. For you it is vain to say, that it hath erred, 
‡ Untruth. For where did the Holy Ghost ever make such promiss?  when the holy ghost hath signified, that it can not err.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I will not say, Where were your wits, M. harding, when ye wrote these things? But well may I say, where was your Logic? As for Divinity, it appeareth by your reckoning, ye make no great account of it. Christ, say you, prayed for Peter: Ergo, the Roman Faith can never fail. Few children would willingly make such Arguments. Ye presume very much of the Simplicity, and Ignorance of your Reader. For think you, that Christ prayed only for Peter, and for no body else? Or think you, that Christ's prayers took place in none other of all the Apostles, but only in Peter? Awake for shame: and shake of these dreams. Christ himself saith, O Father, I pray nor only for these, 
john. 17.  but also for them, that by their word shall believe in me. And S. Augustine thus reporteth the same prayer, as it is alleged before: Ego rogavi Paitem pro vobis, 
Augustin. De verbis Do. in evangelio Secun. Lucam. Serm 36. Augusti in quae. Nou Testam. quae. 75. Origen. in Mat. tracta 1. Roma●. 1.  ne deficiat Fides vestra: I have prayed unto my Father, (not for Peter only, but) for you, that your Faith may not fail. Again he saith, Nunquid pro Petro rogabat: Pro johann, & jacobo non rogabat? Did Christ pray for Peter: And did he not pray for john, and james? Certainly Origen saith, as likewise I have before alleged, Omnia, quaeque priùs dicta sunt, quaeque sequuntur, velut ad Petrum dicta, sunt omnium Communia: All the things, that either paste before, or follow after, as spoken unto Peter, are common unto all the Apostles.  
But S. Paul saith unto the Romans, Your Faith is spoken of throughout the world. And S. Cyprian saith, The agreeing with the Bishop of Rome was the Unity of the Catholic Church. And yet it may please you, to be remembered by the way, that the same S. Cyprian reproved Cornelius, and Stephanus, both Bishops of Rome: and told them, they were both deceived: and therefore would not agree unto them. Nevertheless, hereof ye conclude thus, Ergo the Holy Ghost hath signified, that the Church of Rome cannot err. It pitieth me, M. Harding, in your behalf, to see, into how straight, and miserable holes ye are feign to creep. For, what if the Faith, and the Constancy of the Romans in old times, for the Nobility of that empire and City, were then published throughout the whole world? Yet where did the Holy Ghost ever tell you, that therefore the Church of Rome should never err? By what Word? By what promiss? By what Revelation? Ye say, The Faith of the Romans was heard of throughout the whole World. So was the Great capitol there: So was the beauty of their Princely buildings. Which, notwithstanding are now made smooth, and even with the ground. 
isaiah. 2.  So likewise is it written of Jerusalem, De Zion exibit Lex, & Verbum Domini de Jerusalem: The Law shall come forth from Zion, and the Word of God from Jerusalem. So in the City of Antioch the Faithful were first called Christians: 
Chrysostom. ad Popul. Antio. Homi. 3. Nazian. epist. 74. Nazian. ad Heronem.  And therefore Chrysostom calleth the same City Caput totius orbis, The Head of the whole world. Thus was Eusebius Samosatensis called Regula Fidei, The Rule, and standard of the Faith: Thus was Athanasius called Orbis oculus: & Fundamentum Fidei: The Eye of the world, and the foundation of the Faith. Would ye hereof conclude, M. Harding, that therefore the Faith of these Churches can never fail? Ye know, that all this notwithstanding, the Churches as well of Jerusalem, and Antioch, as also of Asia, Syria, Graecia, and of all the east, are now subject to the Turk, and scarcely a few left there, that dare to profess the name of Christ.  
What a fond Paradise is this, to say, because ye had once the Faith of Christ, therefore now ye can never err? Such a fantastical Paradise had they built unto themselves, 
Hierem. 7. Math. 3.  that cried out in old times, even as you do now, The Temple of God: The Temple of God: We are the Children of Abraham. But who so ever well considereth the story of the time, shall soon find, that then they cried most, The Temple of God, when they had most shamefully abused, and defaced the Temple of God: and, that then they claimed most to be called the Children of Abraham, when they had forsaken both the Faith, and life of Abraham, and, as Christ saith unto them, 
johan. 8.  were become the Children of the Devil.  
Such a fantasy had they, that said, Non peribit Lex à Sacerdote: Nec consilium à Sapiente: 
Hierem. 18.  Nec Verbum à Propheta: The Law shall not depart from the Priest: Nor Counsel from the Wise: Nor the Word from the Prophet. But God saith unto them, Obstupescent Sacerdotes, & Prophetae terrebuntur. Lex peribit à Sacerdote, & Consilium à Senioribus. Nox vobis erit pro Visione: & tenebrae pro Divinatione: Your Priests shallbe amazed: and your Prophets shallbe at their wits end. The Law shall perish from the Priest: 
Hieremi. 18. Ezechiel. 7. Miche. 6. Galat. 3. 2. Pet. 2. isaiah. 1.  and Counsel shall want in the Elders. Ye shall have Night in steed of a Vision: and Darkness in steed of prophesy.  
S. Paul saith unto the Galathians, Ye began well: who hath thus bewitched you, that ye should not obey the Truth? S. Peter saith, As there were False Prophets amongst the people in old time, even so among you there shallbe False Prophets, bringing in Sects of Perdition. Of such a change the Prophet isaiah complaineth, Quomodò facta est Meretrix Civitas Fidelis? How is this Faithful City now become an Harlot? Deceive not thus yourself, M. Harding, with vain hope. hearken rather to the voice of our Lord. Put nothing to his word: take nothing from the same: turn neither to the Right hand, nor to the left. So shall ye be sure, ye shall not err.    

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division, 2.  
For our parts, if we could have judged, Ignorance, Error, Superstition, Idolatry, men's Inventions, and the same commonly disagreeing with the Holy Scriptures, either to please God, or to be sufficient for thobtaining of Everlasting Salvation: or if we could ascertain ourselves, that the Word of God was written but for a time only, and afterward again ought to be abrogated, and put away: or else, that the sayings & Commandments of God ought to be subject to man's will, 
God's word mutable.  that, whatsoever God saith, and commandeth, except the Bishop of Rome will, and Command the same, it must be taken as void, and unspoken: If we could have brought ourselves to believe these things, we grant, there had been no cause at all, why we should have left these men's Company.  

M. harding.  
God forbidden, that either ye, or any Christian man should judge, that ignorance, error, superstition, idolatry, men's inventions contrary to the Scriptures, either pleased God, or to be sufficient to salvation. Because ye lay this to the catholic Church, 
* Untruth enclosed, known, and wilful: Read the answer.  we can say no less of you, but that ye be false liars, and devilish slanderers. And 
‡ Thus partly M. hardings Doctors say: partly M. harding himself: As it shall appear.  who teacheth, that God's word was written, but for a time only? ‡ That his commandments be subject to man's will? ‡ That God's sayings and precepts be void, except the Bishop of Rome ratify them? Here would I say unto you at least, fie for shame, but that I think, I should prevail no more, then if I said to an impudent and common Harlot, 
jerem. 3.  fie for shame. Who may not plainly see, the Scripture verified on you, Frons mulieris Meretricis facta est vobis? Ye have gotten to you the impudent face of an Harlot.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, it hath pleased you, to bestow large liveries, of your False Liars: devilish slanderers: Impudent Faces: Common Harlots: with Fies, and shames, etc. Wherein no man may justly grudge you, to be so liberal of your own. First, that by your Doctrine Ignorance highly pleaseth God, & is sufficient to Salvation, besides the general practice of your whole Church, ye may soon call to mind, that one of your dearest friends, in most honourable Audience, not long sithence, openly published the same, in the name, and behoove of all his Brethren, as a Secret Mystery, and the very bottom of your Divinity: Ignorance is the Mother of Devotion. You know, M. Harding, that a great many both worthy, and honourable, are able to witness, that this is, neither false Lie, nor devilish Slander. Concerning Superstition, and Idolatry, what need we many words? The thing itself is too well able to prove itself. Who so but looketh into your Churches, may easily, not only see it with his eyes, but also feel it with his fingers. That God's Holy Word, by your Learning, is mutable, and serveth only for a time, your own doctor Cardinalis Cusanus would soon have taught you: notwithstanding, it may scarcely seem lawful for you, being so learned a man, in the Substance of your own Doctrine, 
Cardinal. Cusanus, De Authoritate Eccle. & Concilij Supra, & Contra Scripturam.  to plead Ignorance. Cardinal Cusanus words be these: Scripturae adaptatae sunt ad tempus, & variè intelliguntur: Ita ut uno tempore secundum currentem universalem ritum exponantur: mutato ritu, iterùm Sententia mutetur: The Scriptures are applied unto the time, and may have sundry understandings: So that at one time they may be expounded (one way) according to the universal current order (of the church): and that, the same order being broken, the meaning of the Scriptures may be changed. Look better on your books, M. harding: and ye shall see, that herein is neither Lie, nor Slander. That the Holy Scriptures of God, by your Divinity, be not Authentical, farther than they be ratified by the Pope, ye might have learned of your Sylvester Prierias, 
Sylvester Prieria●, contra Lutherum.  Master of the Pope's Palace. Thus he writeth: A Doctrina Romanae Ecclesiae, & Romani Pontificis, Sacra Scriptura robur trahit, & authoritatem. The Holy Scripture taketh strength, and Authority of the Doctrine of the Roman Church, and of the Bishop of Rome. Again he saith, Indulgentiae Authoritate Scripturae non innotuere nobis: Sed Authoritate Romanae Ecclesiae, Romanorumque Pontificum; quae Maior est: pardons are not known to us by the Authority of the Scriptures, but by the Authority of the Roman Church, and of the Bishops of Rome, which is greater, than the Authority of the Scriptures.  
If ye say, these be Lies, and slanders, ye offer great wrong to your own Doctors. Nevertheless, if ye shall happen to cry out in the impatience of your Choler, Fie for shame: Impudent Faces: Common harlots: remember, what you yourself have written immediately before, touching the same. These be your own words. recant them ye may: But deny them ye may not. Thus you say: 
M. H. fol 192 b.  Christ now requireth of you, not to obey Peter, and Paul, (that is to say, the word of God) But to obe●e him, who sitteth in their Chair. We forge not these words, M. harding: They are your own. Folks will think, ye have no modest Matrons face, if ye speak willingly against yourself.  
Now, ye see, M. harding, who teacheth you, That God's Word was uvritten only for a time: And that God's Commandments are no further Authentical, but as they be ratified by the Pope: Therefore henceforth ye may spare these Lies, and slanders: and cry out, Fie, and Shame, when some occasion shallbe offered. 
Cardin. Cusan. De Authorita. Eccle. & Concil. Supra & Contra Scripturam.  In deed Cardinal Cusanus saith: Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae. Quare Membra Cathedrae unita, & Pontifici Coniuncta, efficiunt Ecclesiam: The Truth cleaveth fast to the Pope's Chair. Therefore the Members united unto that Chair, and joined unto the Pope, make the Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 1.  
As touching that we have now done, to depart from that Church, whoes errors were proved, & made manifest to the world, which Church also had already evidently departed from Gods word, and yet not to departed so much from itself, as from the errors thereof, & not to do this disorderly, or wickedly, but quietly, and soberly, we have done nothing herein against the doctrine, either of Christ, or of his Apostles. For neither is the Church of God such, as it may not be dusked with some spot, or asketh not sometime reparation. Else, what need there so many Assemblies, & Councils, without the which, 
In Concil. Lateranens. sub julio. 2.  as saith Egidius, the Christian Faith is not able to stand? For look, saith he, how often Councils are discontinued, so often is the Church destitute of Christ.  

M. harding.  
That the Church is points of our Faith necessary to salvation erreth, we deny it: and 
* Untruth. Ye make your own warrant. For Christ never made such promiss to the Church of Rome.  upon warrant of Christ's promise, we tell it you all assuredly, ye shall never be able to prove it.  
Counsels are kept, and Bishops be made by the same providence of God, which provideth partly by that means, and partly by other, that the Roman Faith, Chair, and Rock, shall stand for ever. Ad quos (saith S. Cyprian, speaking of them of Rome) perfidia non potest habere accessum: 
‡ Untruth, grounded upon gross ignorance. For M. Hard. foully mistaketh S. Cyprians whole meaning.  to the which unfaithfulness can not have access. He saith not only, shall not have access, but, can not have access.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It seemeth, M. harding, ye have been brought up under some poor unskilful Surgeon. For ve apply one salve to every soar. What soever be alleged against you, it is sufficient for you to answer. The church of Rome erreth not, hath not erred, can not err. And to this purpose ye have brought us in certain words of S. Cyprian, far besides the Authors meaning. Whereby it appeareth, that sometimes ye allege Authorities of the Fathers, not considering, neither to what end they spoke, nor what they meant.  
For, where as S. Cyprian saith, Unto the Romans unfaithfulness can have no access, he speaketh not of the unfaithfulness of Faith, or Doctrine, as you by error have imagined, but only of the unfaithfulness of report. The cause of writing that Epistle, in short, was this: Certain lewd fellows, refusing to stand to the judgement of the Bishops of their own Country of Aphrica, 
The Church of Rome can not err.  appealed further, and fled to Rome, with many untrue, and forged tales, to win some credit of their cause. Hereunto S. Cyprian saith, The Romans be godly, and wise men: they will soon be able, to espy their falsehood. For unfaitheful reports, and lewd tales can have no access unto them. If ye had considered, either the occasion of the writing, or the whole drift of the letter, 
Cyprian. lib. 1. Epist. 3.  or the very bare words, as they lie, ye might easily have, seen, that this only was S. Cyprians meaning.  
His words be these, Post ista adhuc insuper Pseudoepiscopo sibi ab Haereticis constituto, navigare audent, & ad Petri Cathedram, unde unitas Sacerdotalis exorta est, à Schismaticis, & Profanis literas far: nec cogitare, eos esse Romanos, quorum Fides, Apostolo praedicante, laudata est: ad quos Perfidia habere non possit accessum: After this, having a False Bishop appointed unto them by Heretics, they dare to take shipping, and unto Peter's Chair, and unto that Principal Church, from whence the priestly unity grew first, to carry letters from Schismatics, and lewd men: Neither consider they, that the Romans are that people, whose Faith is praised by S. Paul the Apostle: unto whom unfaithfulness (of reports, & tales) can have no access.  
If ye doubt of this Exposition, read these words, touching the same, going before in the same Epistle: 
In eadem Epist.  Roman cum Mendaciorum suorum merce navigarunt. Quasi Veritas post eos navigare non posset: quae Mendaces linguas rei certa probatione convinceret. They sail to Rome with the Merchandise of their Lies: as though the Truth could not sail after them, that by proof of the certainty, might control their lying tongues. This is that unfaithfulness, that S. Cyprian speaketh of: and not the Vnfaithefulnesse of Faith, and Doctrine.  
Now, touching this Appealinge, and fleeing to Rome, lest ye should think, by occasion of these words, that S. Cyprian alloweth it, or thinketh well of it: ye shall find in the same Epistle, that he utterly misliketh it, & condemneth it. For thus he saith, 
Cyprian in eadem Epist.  Acquum est pariter, & justum, ut uniuscuiusque causa illic audiatur, ubi crimen admissum est: It is meet and right, that every man's cause be pleaded in that Country, where the fault was committed, etc. Again, Oportet eos, quibus praesumus, non circumcursare: It is not meet, that they, over whom we have Jurisdiction, should run about the World: He meaneth to Rome.  
And again, Nisi paucis desperatis, & perditis Minor videtur esse Authoritas Episcoporum in Aphrica constitutorum, etc. unless a few desperate, and wicked men think, the Authority of the Bishops of Aphrica is less, than the Authority of the Bishops of Rome. By these words S. Cyprian maketh the Bishop of Rome equal in Authority with himself, and other Bishops. Wherefore I must conclude with other words of S. Cyprian in the same Epistle: Haec est, Frater, vera dementia, non cogitare, quòd Mendacia non diu fallant: Nocten tam diu esse, quoad illucescat Dies: O my Brother, this in deed is very madness, not to think, that Lies cannot long deceive: The Night lasteth no longer, but until the Day begin to springe.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 1. &. 2.  
Or, if there be no peril, that harm may come to the Church, what need is there, to retain to no purpose the names of Bishops? For so it is now commonly used among them. For if there be no Sheep, that may stray, why be they called shepherds? If there be no City, that may be betrayed, why be they called Warchemennes? If there be nothing, that may run to ruin, why be they called Pillars? Anon after the first Creation of the World, the Church of God began to spread abroad, and the same was instructed with the Heavenly word, which God himself pronounced with his own Mouth. It was also furnished with Divine Ceremonies. If was taught by the Spirit of God, by the patriarchs, and Prophets, & continued so even till the time, that Christ showed himself to us in the flesh. This notwithstanding, how often, O good God, in the mean while, and how horribly was the same Church darkened, and decayed?  
Where was that Church then, when all flesh upon Earth had defiled his own way? Where was it, when amongst the numbered of the Whole World, there were only eight persons (& neither they all chaste, and good neither) whom Gods will was should be saved alive from that Universal destruction, and Mortality? when Elie the Prophet so lamentabldy & bitterly made his moan, 
3. Reg. 13.  that only himself was left of all the Whole World, which did truly and duly worship God? 
isaiah. 1.  and when isaiah said, The Silver of God's people (that is, of the Church) was become Dross: and that the same City which aforetime had been faithful, was now become an Harlot: and that in the same there was no part sound throughout the whole body, from the head to the foot? Or else, when Christ himself said, that the House of God was made, by the Phariseis and Priests, 
Math. 21.  a Den of thieves? Of a truth, the Church, even as a cornefilde, except it be eared, manured, tilled, and trimmed, will in stead of Wheat, bring forth Thistles, Darnel, and Nettles. For this cause did God send ever among, both Prophets, and Apostles, and last of all his own Son, who might bring home the people into the right way, and repair anew the tottering Church after she had erred.  

M. harding.  
These and the like places have been already alleged, of old time, against the Catholics, by the Donatists, as S. Augustine showeth: and of late years by your schoolmaster john Caluine of Geneva. We need not to study for new answers to the argument made out of these and such other places, much fit for this purpose, than these are, sith that the same is so well answered by S. Augustine. Oftentimes (saith he) Goddess word rebuketh the wicked sorts of the Church so, 
De unitate Eccle. ca 12.  as though all were such, and none at all remained good. For thereby we are warned, them in their certain number to be called all, as much to sale, all the children of hell. But Sirs, what if the Church at the beginning of the world, and at the general drowning, was of small number? And what if the synagogue were sometime quite extinguished? Must it therefore follow, that the church also after that God hath given to Christ his Son the ends of the world to be his possession, 
Psalm. 3.  may now be brought to a few, and to fail altogether? Where was the Church (say ye) when of all the world there were but eight persons, and they only saved alive from the universal destruction? Forsooth they were in noah's Ark. And now have we 
‡ But the same Ark is not the Church of Rome.  our noah's Ark also, in which who so ever abideth not, the same is drowned.  
Neither were the Prophets and Apostles sent, nor Christ came himself to repair a new the Church, which had in faith wholly erred: but both they were sent, and he came, that it should not wholly err.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It is true, 
The Church in few.  that ye say, In the Holy Scriptures this word, Al, is often used in steed of, Many. And thus, ye say, it fared with the synagogue of the jews: for that then the Faithful were sometimes brought unto a small number: sometimes were utterly decayed, and consumed to nought. And in this sense, ye say, Elias complained, 
3. Regum. 19  that the Prophets of God were all slain, & he only le●te alive.  
But now, ye say, the Church may not be brought to a few. For God hath given to Christ his Son the ends of the world to be his possession. Yet Christ himself, that best knew the reach, and limits of his possession, saith thus, When the Son of Man shall come, 
Luke. 21. Ambrosi. in Lucam. lib. 10. Apocalyp. 12.  think you, he shall find Faith in the world? Whereupon S. Ambrose saith, Tunc Fides rara: Vt ipse, quasi addubitans, Dominus ista dixerit: Then shall Faith be geason: So that our Lord spoke these words, as doubting thereof, whether there should be any Faithful left, or no. And S. john in his Revelations saith, Mulier fugit in solitudinem, ubi habet locum paratum à Deo: The woman (whereby is meant, not the synagogue of the jews, but the Church of Christ) fleeth into the wilderness: where she hath a place provided of God. By which words is meant, that in time of Ignorance, and Persecution, the Church is without Countenance, 
2. Thessal. 2.  and unknown. S. Paul saith, Before the Day of the Lord, there shallbe a departing from the Faith of Christ. By these it appeareth, that the decay of the Church shallbe universal: and that the remanentes shall not be many. 
Vincentius Lirinensis.  Therefore Vincentius Lirinensis putteth the case on this wise: Quid si novella aliqua contagio iam non portiunculam tantùm, sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur? Tunc item providebit, ut Antiquitati inhaereat: What if some new corruption go about to invade, not only some portion of the Church, but also the whole universal Church altogether? Then must a Christian man settle himself to cleave to Antiquity: That is to say, to follow the Primitive Church of the Apostles, and Ancient Fathers. This case would he never have moved, unless he had thought, the Whole universal Church might happen by some error to be corrupted. Surely S. Chrysostom, 
Chrysostom. in 1. ad Corinth. Homil. 36.  speaking of the state of the Church, that he saw in his time, saith thus: Videtur Ecclesia hodiè mulieri, quae mansuetudine veteri exciderit, similis: quaeque Symbola tantùm foelicitatis illius quaedam referat: Arcas, & Scrinia rerum pretiosissimarum adhuc retinens, Thesauro destituta. Huic mulieri Ecclesia hody videtur similis: The Church this day is like unto a woman, that hath quite lost all her old modesty: and that beareth only certain badges, and tokens of her former felicity: and that, being utterly bereft of the treasures, keepeth only the Cases, and Boxes of the precious things, she had before. To such a woman the church this day may be likened. 
Hieronym. in vita Malchi.  Likewise S. Jerome, speaking of that he saw by experience in his time, saith thus: Ecclesia, postquam ad Christianos principes pervenit, potentia quidem, & divitijs maior, sed virtutibus minor facta est: The church, after that she is come to Christian Princes, in deed is greater in wealth, and richesses: But in virtue, and holiness she is less, than she was before. Therefore saith Chrysostom, Haec dico, 
Chrysostom. Ad Populum Antioch. Homil. 4.  ne quis miretur Ecclesiam propter multitudinem: sed ut ipsam probatam reddere studeamus: Thus much I tell you, not that we should advance the Church because of the Multitude, and increase of people: But that we should endeavour to adorn her with virtue.  
Now, 
Bernard. in Conuersione Pauli, Sermo. 1.  where ye say, the Church now can never be brought to few S., bernard saith thus unto God, by way of moan: Coniurasse videtur contra te universitas populi Christiani, à minimo usque ad maximum: A planta pedis usque ad verticem non est sanitas ulla. Egressa est iniquitas à Senioribus judicibus Vicarijs tuis, qui videntur regere populum tuum: O Lord, the Universal Company of Christian people seemeth to have conspired against thee, from the lowest unto the highest. From the sole of the foot, unto the crown of the head, there is no whole place. Iniquity and wickedness is gone forth from thy Elder judges, 
Ci●a●ur ab Holco●o in Sapier●. Lectio. 23.  that be thy vicars, that are thought to rule thy people. Again he saith, Intestinalis, & insanabilis est plaga Ecclesiae: the wound of the Church is inward, and paste recover. Likewise Baptista Mantuane complaineth unto Pope Leo:  

Sancte Pater succurre Leo, 
Baptis. Mantuanus, fast. 4.  Respublica Christi  
Labitur: aegrotatque Fides iam proxima morti.   
Help, Holy Father Leo: Christ's Common Wealth (that is, the Church) is falling down: the Faith is sick, and like to die.  
So likewise saith he, 
Fortalitium Fidei, lib. 5.  that wrote the Fort of Faith, Et si in hoc Daemonum bello cadant Religiosi Principes, & Milites, & Praelati Ecclesiastici, & Subditi, tamen semper manent aliqui, in quibus saluatur Veritas Fidei, & justificatio bonae Conscientiae. Et si non nisi duo homines remanerent in mundo, in eyes saluaretur Ecclesia, quae est unitas Fidelium: In this battle of devils, notwithstanding the Godly Princes, the Soldiers, the Ecclesiastical Prelates, and Subjects be overthrown, yet evermore some remain, in whom the Truth of Faith, and the Righteousness of a good Conscience is preserved. And although there remained but two men in the world, yet in the same two the Church of God should be saved: uvhiche Church is the Unity of the faithful. The Church of God is often compared to the Moon, 
August. Epist. 48.  which sometimes is full, & round, & bright, & glorious: sometimes is wholly shadowed & drowned in darkness: and yet notwithstanding is not consumed, but in Substance remaineth still. S. Augustine saith, Aliquando in Solo Abel Ecclesia erat: et expugnatus est à fratre malo, & perdito Caim. 
August. in Psal. 128.  Aliquando in Solo Enoch Ecclesia erat: & translatus est ab iniquis: Sommetime the Church was in only Abel: and he was destroyed by his brother wicked Caim. Sommetime the Church was only in ●noch: and he was translated from the wicked. Your own Panormitane saith: 
Extra de Electione. Significas●i. Abb.  Possibile est, quòd Vera Fides Christi remaneret in uno Solo: Atque ita verum est dicete, quòd Fides non deficit in Ecclesia. Hoc patuit post Passionem Christi. Nam Fides remansit tantùm in Beata Virgin. Quia omnes alij scandalizati sunt. Tamen Christus ante Passionem oraverat pro Petro, ut non deficeret Fides sua. Ergo, Ecclesia non dicitur deficere, nec etiam errare, si remanet Vera Fides in uno Solo, It is possible, the true Faith of Christ may remain in one alone: And so it is true to say, that Faith faileth not in the Church. This thing appeared after Christ's Passion. For then the Faith remained only in the Blessed Virgin. For all the rest (both the Apostles, and others) were offended. Yet had Christ prayed for Peter before his Passion, that his Faith should not fail. Therefore we may not say, the Church faileth, or erreth, if the Faith remain but in one alone.  
Again, 
August. in Psal. 88  S. Augustine saith, Non tamen propter hos remanebit Christus sine Haereditate. Novit Dominus, qui sint sui, etc. Yet shall not Christ, because of the wicked, remain without his Inheritance. The Lord knoweth who be his own.    

The Apology, Cap. 13. Division. 1.  
But lest some man should say, that the foresaid things happened only in the time of the Law, of Shadows, and of Infancy, when the Truth lay hid under Figures, and Ceremonies, when nothing as yet was brought to perfection, when the Law was not graven in men's hearts, but in stone; (And yet were that but a foolish distinction) for even at those days there was the very same God, that is now, the same Spirit, the same Christ, the same Faith, the same Doctrine, 
The Church of Rome may err.  the same Hope, the same Inheritance, the same covenant, and the same Efficacy and Virtue of God's Word: Eusebius also saith, All the Faithful, even from Adam until Christ, were in deed very Christians, though they were not so termed): But, as I said, lest men should thus say still, Paul the Apostle found the like faults, & falls even then in the prime, and chief of the Gospel, in the greatest perfection, & in the light: so that he was compelled to write in this sort to the Galathians, whom he had well before instructed: I fear me (quoth he) lest I have laboured amongst you to small purpose, and lest ye have heard the Gospel in vain. O my little Children, of whom I travail anew, till Christ be fashioned again in you: And as for the Church of the Corinthians, how foully it was defiled, it is nothing needful to rehearse. Now tell me, might the Churches of the Galathians, and Corinthians go amiss, and the Church of Rome alone may it not fail nor go amiss?  

M. harding.  
We answer, that in parts of the church, faults may be found, and sundry men that seem to be of the Church, and be in the Church in deed, may fall and perish: all this we grant. 
* we speak not of the whole Universal church but only of the Church of Rome.  But that the whole, catholic, and universal Church, whose faith we profess, may err, fall, and fail: that we deny utterly, which had been this Defenders part to prove, else he talketh to no purpose. And where S. Paul rebuketh all the Galathians in general, as though all had forsaken their faith, he doth it after the wont of the Prophets, both in that and other epistles, for the greater parts sake, reprehending all, though some deserve praise. As for the Corinthians, though many among them were faulty, yet who considereth how be beginneth his epistle to them, shall find that he 
‡ But the same Church this day is subject to the Religion of Mahomete, and is no Church.  acknowledged a Church among them. For thus he writeth: Paul by vocation by Apostle, etc. to the church of God which is at Corinth. etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
That in any particular Church faults may be found, that, ye say, ye will confess. But that the whole Catholic Universal Church may err and fail, that, you say, ye deny utterly.  
notwithstanding it is certain, that the Churches of Corinthe, and Galatia, and sundry others, are now, not in any Particular portion, but thoroughly departed from the Faith: and are now wholly subject to the Turk.  
This therefore must needs be your meaning, that all be it all other Particular Churches throughout the world happen to err, yet the Church of Rome, that is to say, the Pope and his Cardinals, can never err. This Lesson, I trow, 
Pet. de Palude, De potestate Curatorum, Ar. 6.  ye learned of Petrus de Palude: For neither Christ, nor any of his Apostles ever taught it you. This worthy Doctor saith thus: Tota Ecclesia Petri non potest à Fide deficere. Omnes autem Ecclesiae Apostolorum omnium possunt deficere à Fide totaliter, indigentes ab Ecclesia Petri confirmari: The whole Church of Peter, cannot wholly fail from the Faith. But all the other Churches of all the Apostles may fail wholly from the Faith, having need to be confirmed by the Church of Peter. 
M. Hard. fo. 16. b  And to this end, you yourself call the Roman Faith, the Catholic Faith: making no manner difference between either other. 
Dist. 21. Omnes.  And therefore Pope Nicolas thus advanceth, and thundereth out his own Authority: Non quaelibet Terrena Sententia, sed illud Verbum, quo constructum est Coelum, & Terra, per quod denique omnia condita sunt Elementa, Romanam fundavit Ecclesiam: Not any worldly Sectence, but the self same Word, where by Heaven, and Earth was made, and whereby all the Elements were created, was it, that founded the Church of Rome. By which words he meaneth, that the Roman Faith shall stand as fast, as the foundations of Heaven, and Earth. Even so Peter assured his promiss unto Christ: Although, 
Matthae. 26.  said he, all others deny thee, yet I alone will not deny thee. No, though I should presently die with thee, yet I only will never deny thee. Nevertheless, when it came to trial, the same Peter denied him first.  
Now, that the Churches of Rome, which you call the Catholic Church, may err, & be forsaken of God, it is evident by the plain words of S. Paul. For thus he writeth even unto the Church of Rome: 
Roman. 11.  Quòd si aliqui ex ramis fracti sunt etc. If any of the boughs be broken of, and thou, being a wild Olive tree art graffed into the natural Olive, and made Partaker of the root, and of the fatness thereof, boast not thee self against the boughs. If thou boast, (remember) thou bearest not the Root: but the root beareth thee. Thou wilt say, The boughs are broken of, that I might be graffed in. Well, they are broken of for their Infidelity: but thou standest fast by Faith. Be not high minded: but stand in awe. seeing God hath not spared the Natural boughs, lest happily he spare not thee. See therefore the goodness, and the sharpness of God: His sharpness towards them, that are fallen away: but his goodness towards thee, if thou continue, 
Alioqui & tu excidèris.  and remain in goodness. Otherwise thou (being the Church of Rome) shalt likewise be smitten of. Hereby it is plain, that the Church of Rome may fail, and fall from God, no less, than other like Churches. For otherwise this advertisement of S. Paul had been in vain.  
Therefore Hormisda, 
Hormisda pp, ad Episcopos Hispaniae.  being himself Bishop of Rome, writeth thus, Dilectissimi Fratres, continuas preces ad Dominum fundamus, & iugi deprecatione poscamus, ut & institutione, & opere illi, cuius esse membra cupimuns, adhaereamus. nec unquam ab illa via, quae Christus est, devio tramite declinemus: ne ab eo justè, quem impiè reliquerimus, deseramur: My dearly beloved Brethren, let us Pray unto God, that both by profession, and by order of life, we may cleave to him, whose Members we desire to be: and that by any crooked path we never turn from that way, which is Christ: lest we (being the Church of Rome) be justly forsaken of him, whom wickedly we have forsaken. Thus would not the Pope himself have written in the behoove of the Church of Rome, if he had thought, the same Church could never have erred. 
Chrysostom. De varijs locis in Matth. Homi. 20.  To be short, Chrysostom saith, Ecclesia, quocunque modo egerit contra voluntatem Christi, abijci digna est. Non autem abijcitur propter longanimitatem Christi, nisi sola causa Transgressionis: The Church, by what way so ever she do against the will of Christ, is worthy to be given over. Yet through the patience of Christ, she is never given over, but only for breaking his commandments.    

The Apology, Cap. 13. Division. 2.  
Surely Christ prophesied long before of his Church, that the time should come, when Desolation should stand in the Holy Place. 
2. Thessaly. Daniel. 8.  And S. Paul saith, that antichrist should once set up his own Tabernacle, & stately Seat in the Temple of God: and that the time should be, when men should not away with Wholesome Doctrine, but be turned back unto fables, and lies, & that within the very Church. 
1. Petri. 2. Daniel. 8.  Peter likewise telleth, how there should be teachers of lies in the Church of Christ: Daniel the Prophet speaking of the later times of antichrist, Truth, saith he, in that season shallbe thrown under foot, & trodden upon in the world. And Christ saith, 
Abomination of Desolation  The calamity and confusion of things shallbe so exceeding great, 
Matth. 24.  that even the chosen, if it were possible, shallbe brought into error: & that these things shall come to pass, not amongst the Gentiles, and Turks, but even in the Holy Place, in the Temple of God, in the Church, & in the Company & Fellowship of those, which profess the name of Christ.  

M. harding.  
The Prophecy of Daniel concerning the Abomination of Desolation, whereof Christ spoke in the Gospel, we think with the 
‡ Untruth. For the best learned Divines have thought otherwise: As it shall appear.  best learned Divines, that it is to be referred, not to the end of the world, 
Daniel. 9 Matth. 24.  nor to the driving away of the Faith by antichrist, as ye imagine, but to the consummation and final ending of the synagogue.  
touching that ye say of antichrist, it maketh nothing against the Catholics, against whose Faith he prevaileth not. Marry, many good men think, that he hath already begun to set up his Tabernacle, and stately seat in the hearts of many, which ought to be the Temple of God, by his foreronners Martin Luther, Zuinglius, Caluine, and you their scholars, with the rest of that wicked rabble. Where ye add, and that within the Church, it is 
* Untruth For S. Paul saith plainly, He shall sit in the Temple of God. 2. Thessal. 2.  more than ye found in S. Paul. But we understand your good will, though we find you without ever a good reason. And ye we grant, 
1. ●oan. 2.  ye came out from us, as S. john saith, but ye were not of us. For if ye had been of us, ye would have tarried with us. So may the saying of S. Peter be referred to you, and likewise that of Daniel, which ye allege, though the words be not in Daniel. For your schoolmasters and you are a limb of antichrist and ye labour what ye can, to overthrow and tread under foot the true Faith of the Church, and the Catholic Religion.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What needed you, 
2. Thessalon. 2. Nicol. Lyra. Hieronym. ad Algasiam. Hippolytus ma●.  M. harding, to talk so much in the favour of antichrist? Or, why should you be grieved, to hear him called the Abomination of Desolation? S. Paul calleth antichrist, the Man of Sin: some say, He shallbe wholly possessed of the Devil: Your own Hippolytus saith, He shall be the Devil himself. Yet have few men found themselves grieved with such sayings.  
I know, the Words of Christ, & of Daniel, by divers Expositions, have been diversly applied. Yet may ye not well thus condemn all their judgements, that have applied the same to antichrist. Origen one of the most Ancient Fathers of the Church, entreating of antichrist, contrary to your Exposition, saith thus: 
Origen. in Matthae. Tracta. 29. Chrysost in Opere Imperfecto, Homil. 49.  Ipse est Abominatio Desolationis: antichrist is the Abomination of Desolation.  
S. Chrysostom saith, Hic Antichristus dicitur Abominatio Desolationis: quia multorum Christianorum animas facturus est desolatas à Deo: This antichrist is called the Abomination of Desolation: for that he shall cause the Souls of many christians to be desolate, and forsaken of God. Gregorius Nazianzenus saith, Antichristus veniet in Desolatione Mundi. 
Gregor. Nazian. Significatio in Ezechielem. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Est enim Abominatio Desolationis: antichrist shall come in the Desolation of the world: For he is the Abomination of Desolation. S. Jerome saith, Abominatio Desolationis intelligi potest omne dogma perversum: By the Abomination of Desolation we may understand any manner Perverse Doctrine: Whereof, no doubt, in antichrist shall want no store. And again, speaking namely of the Man of wickedness, the Adversary of Christ, which is antichrist, that lifteth up himself above all, 
Hieronym. in Matth. Cap. 24. Eodem loco. Ambrasi in Lucam, Lib. 10. Ca 21.  that is called God, He saith, Abominatio Desolationum erit in Templo, usque ad Consummationem temporis: The Abomination of Desolation shall stand in the Church, until the Consummation, or end of time.  
S. Ambrose saith, Abominatio Desolationis execrabilis Aduentus Antichristi est: The Abomination of Desolation is the cursed coming of antichrist. S. Hilary expounding these self same words of Christ, When ye shall see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy place, saith thus, De Antichristi temporibus haec locutus est: 
Hilari. in Matthae. Canon. 25. Theodoret. in Daniel. Ca 12. Eusebius Emissen.  Christ spoke these words of the time of antichrist. Likewise saith Theodoretus, writing upon the Prophet Daniel, Abominationem Desolationis ipsum vocat Antichristum. And besides others, the most Ancient, & most Catholic Fathers, likewise saith Eusebius Emissenus in a special Homily to this purpose. Now, M. harding, whereas ye so certainly assure yourself, that these words of christ may in no wise be taken of the confusion, & horror, y● shallbe at the end of the world, besides all these Learned & Godly Fathers, I beseech you, consider the whole drift, 
Matthae. 24.  & circumstance of the place, & the words, that Christ spoke immediately before. The Apostles demanded him this question: What is the token of thy Coming (to judgement) and of the end of the world? To this question Christ answereth in this wise: Take heed, that noman deceive you. Many shall come in my name, and shall say, I am Christ: and shall deceive many. Ye shall hear of wars, and talks of wars: But be not ye troubled: All these things must happen: yet this is not the end, etc. Many Pass Prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Iniquity shall increase: Charity shall wax cold. Who so continueth unto the end, he shallbe saved. And this Gospel of the Kingdom shallbe Preached in all the world, for a witness unto all Nations, and then shall come the end. The next words, that follow, are these, Therefore when ye shall see the Abomination of Desolation, that was spoken of by Daniel, etc. Thus may ye see, M. Harding, by the very course, & te●oure of Christ's answer, that, if the judgement, be the judgement: if the End, be the End: if the World, be the World, then must these words needs have relation to the End of the world: what so ever any of your best Learned Divines, of whom ye have hitherto named none, have taught, or said to the contrary. 
antichrist standing in the Church of God.  Whereas we say, antichrist shall stand even within the Church, y●, ye say, we find not in S. Paul. notwithstanding, our good will, ye say, ye understand: although ye find in us never a good Reason. As for the goodness of our Reasons, we will not strive. But whether S. Paul say, the antichrist shall stand in the Church, or no, let us be judged by S. Paul. His words be plain Adeò, 
2. Thessalon. 2.  ut in Templo Dei sedeat, tanquam Deus: So that he will sit in the Church of God, as if he were God. If the Church of God, be the Church, then doth S. Paul say, antichrist shall sit within the Church. In like sense Christ saith, antichrist shall sit in the Holy place: 
Matthae. 24. August. De Civita. Dei. Li. 20, Cap. 19 In eodem Cap.  By which words many of the best learned Fathers have expounded, the Church. S. Augustine saith, Non enim Templum alicuius Idoli, aut Daemonis, Templum Dei Apostolus diceret: For the Temple of an Idol, or of a Devil, the Apostle would never call the Temple of God. And he addeth further, Quidam putant rectiùs Latinè dici, sicut in Graeco est, non, in Templo Dei, sed, in Templum Dei sedeat: Tanquam ipse sit Templum Dei, quod est Ecclesia. Sicut dicimus, Sedet in amicum, id est, velut amicus: Some men think, we should better read it in Latin, 
2. Thessalon. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  as it is in the Greek, not, He sitteth in the Temple of God, but, he sitteth For, or As the Temple of God: As if he himself were the Temple of God, which is the Church. As we say, He sitteth for a Friend, that is, He sitteth as a Friend. Here S. Augustine saith, antichrist shall not only sit in the Church, but also shall show himself in outward appearance, 
Herueus De Potestate Pap. Ca 23.  as if he himself were the Church itself. Now, M. harding, who this should be, I report me to your own Doctoures, of whom one hath written thus, Papa quodammodò virtualiter est tota Ecclesia: The Pope in a manner by way of virtue, or Power, 
Hieronym. in Ca 24. Matthaei, Chrysostom. in Opere imperfecto, Homil. 49.  is the whole Universal Church. S. Jerome saith, Antichristus stabit in loco Sancto, id est, in Ecclesia, & se ostendet, ut Deum: antichrist shall stand in the Holy place, that is to say, in the Church: and shall show himself, as if he were God. S. Chrysostom saith, Incident in Abominationem Desolationis, quae stat in Sanctis Ecclesiae locis: They shall fall into the Abomination of Desolation, that standeth in the Holy places of the Church.  
S. Hilary saith, 
Hilarius contra Auxentium.  unum moneo: Cavete Antichristum. Malè enim vos parietum ch. coepit: 
Abomination of Desolation 2. Thessaly 2.  male Ecclesiam Dei in tectis, aedificijsque veneramini. Anne ambiguum est, in ijs Antichristum esse sessurum? One thing I read you: Beware of antichrist. For it is not well, that ye should be thus in love with walls: It is not well, that ye should honour the Church in houses, and buildings. Is there any doubt, but antichrist shall sit in the same? S. Paul saith, Mysterium iniquitatis operatur: (Satan) worketh the Mystery of iniquity: That is to say, he openeth not himself, but what so ever he doth, he doth it in covert. Upon which words Anselmus saith, 
Anselmus.  Iniquitas eorum est Mystica, id est, Pietatis nomine pallia●a: The iniquity of them is Mystical, that is to say, It is cloaked, and coered with the name of Godliness.  
Therefore S. 
Chrysostom in opere Imperfe. Homil. 49.  Chrysostom saith, Christiani, qui sunt in Christianitate, volentes accipere firmitatem Fidei verae, ad nullam rem fugiant, nisi ad Scripturas, etc. The christians, that be in Christendom, willing to have the steadfastness of the true Faith, let them flee to none other thing, but only to the Scriptures. Otherwise, if they look to any thing else, they shall be offended, and perish, not knowing which is the true Church: And so shall they fall into the Abomination of Desolation, that standeth in the Holy places of the Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 1. &. 2.  
Albeit these same warnings alone may suffice a wiseman, to take heed, he do not suffer himself rashly to be deceived with the name of the Church, and not to stay, to make further inquisition thereof by God's Word, yet beside all this, many Fathers also, many learned, and Godly men, have often and carefully complained, how all these things have chanced in their life time. For even in the midst of that thick mist of darkness, God would yet there should be some, who, though they gave not a clear, and bright light, yet should kindle, were it but some spark, which men, being in the darkness, might espy.  
Hilarius, when things as yet were almost uncorrupt, and in good case too, 
Contra Auxentium.  Ye are il deceived, saith he, with the love of walls: ye do ill worship the Church, in that ye worship it in houses and buildings: ye do il bring in the name of peace under roofs. Is there any doubt, but antichrist will have his Seat under the same? I rather reckon Hills, woods, Pools, Marshes, Prisons, and Quavemires, to be places of more safety: for in these the Prophets either abiding of their accord, or forced thither by violence, did Prophesy by the Spirit of God.  
Gregory, as one, which perceived, and foresaw in his mind the wrack of all things, wrote thus of johan Bishop of Constantinople, the first of all others, that commanded himself to be called by this new name, the Universal Bishop of whole Christ's Church: 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Ad Mauritium.  If the Church, saith he, shall depend upon one man, it will soon fall down to the ground. Who is he that seeth not how this is come to pass long sithence? For long agone hath the Bishop of Rome willed to have the whole Church depend upon himself alone. Wherefore it is no marvel, though it be clean fallen down long agone.  

M. harding.  
Ye make a foul lie, Sir defender, upon S. Gregory. The Words you recite, be your own, not his. Is it not enough to lie yourself, as you do very often, but that you father lies also upon the Doctoursi Thanks be to God, that so ye bewray the weakness of your cause. 
‡ Untruth. For he writeth it often. Read the Answer.  Neither in any Epistle to john Bishop of Constantinople, as you say in your Apology, nor in any to Mauritius the Emperor, as you have noted in the margin, writeth Gregory, 
‡ Untruth, more pee●●she, than the former.  that if the Church shall depend upon one man, the whole shall fall to ground. I see well, you would feign Gregory had so written. And if he had, yet your argument had been nought. For you take not the right minor, which should have been this, The Church doth depend upon one man, if you would make your reason good, and after the rules of Logic. For where your minor speaketh only of the Pope's will, thereof your conclusion followeth not. Dispose your propositions in the form of a Syllogism, and you shall espy your own feeble reason. And if you make that your minor, then grant you that, which you deny.  
The words whereof you gather this pretenced saying of Gregory, 
Epist. lib. 4. ad Maurit. Epist. 32.  as I suppose, be these: If any man hath caught unto himself that name (of Universal Bishop) in that Church (of Constantinople) than the whole Church, (which God forbidden) fell from his state, when he that is called Universal, fell. Gregory understandeth by the name, Universal Bishop, as himself declareth in many places. 
* A manifest untruth without wit.  such a one, as is a Bishop altogether and only, so as there be no other Bishop besides him. Now if it were granted, that the Bishop of Constantinople were this one and only Universal Bishop, this inconvenience would follow, that with the fall of that Universal Bishop, the Universal Church also fell. For where the Church is, there be Bishops: and where be Bishops, there is the Church: and a 
‡ Untruth. For Christ never gave out any such Commission.  Bishop Universal, by Gregory, is as much as all Bishops. That this being granted, the whole Church is fallen from the Faith, thus he proveth. For (saith he) the Bishops of Constant inople have fallen into the gulf of great and detestable Heresies: as Nestorius, who thinking Christ to be two persons, and believing that God could not be made man, ran to a jewish Infidelity: and as Macedonius, who denied the holy Ghost to be God. Wherefore if the B. of Constantinople be the Universal Bishop, according to the sense aforesaid, then at the fall of him from the Faith, as when those two before named fell, the Church also falleth, as then by this reason, when they were Bishops, it fell. Thus reasoneth S. Gregory in that Epistle to Mauritius. But because to Gregory it seemeth very far from reason, and incredible, that the Church should fall from the Faith, and fail: therefore he enucigheth against john the Bishop of Constantinople for challenging that name of Universal Bishop, and concludeth that the 
* Untruth, fond, and wilful. For S. Gregory speaketh these words no more of the B. of Constantinople, then of the B. of Rome.  Bishop of that See in any wise can not so be.  
But if the word, Universal, signify a sovereignty of charge, and Supremacy of Government over the whole Church, 
‡ Here M. Hard. recanteth his error. For before he said. These words belong only to the Pope.  which Christ committed to Peter, and in Peter to his Successors the Bishops of Rome, 
john. 21.  when he said, Feed my Sheep: in this sense it is not impious nor erroneus, nor contrary to the mind of S. Gregory, to call the Successor of Peter, Christ's vicar in Earth, the Universal Bishop, 
* This same was it, that Gregory reproved: For thus he writeth, Cuncta Christi Membra tibi conaris universalis appellatione supponere: Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38.  that is to say, the highest of all, and having power over all other Bishops, and Bishop of the Universal Church. And, as Christ gave to S. Peter and his successors, for the benefit of his Church, a Supreme authority and power▪ so for the same Church's sake, 
john. 14.  for whose love he delivered himself to death, 
Luke. 22.  by petition made to his Father, he obtained for him and his successors the Privilege of this supreme and most excellent grace, that their Faith should never fail. In consideration of which singular Privilege, obtained by Christ and 
* Untruth, utterly void of shame.  granted to the see apostolic, and to none other, Gregory rebuketh john the Bishop of Constantinople so much, as one that presumptuously usurped that new name of universal Bishop against the statutes of the Gospel, and against the Decrees of the Canons.  
To conclude, if either Gregory, or any other man should sa●e, that the Church dependeth upon one man: he might seem to say truth, meaning rightly, and that not alone, nor without good Authority. 
Contra Luciferian.  For such a saying we find uttered by S. Jerome. The safety of the Church (saith he) dependeth upon the dignity of the highest Priesie, who if he have not authority peerless and above all other, there will be so many Schisms in the Church, as there be Priests. Which peerless authority above all other, as S. Jerome in that place doth attribute to ‡ to the Bishop of every Diocese directly, 
john. 21.  so consequently to Peter's Successor, to whom it was said, Feed my Sheep. For by what reason in each Diocese it behoveth one Priest to be highes●ouer other Priests, 
The Universal Church falleth.  by the same and in like proportion no less it behoveth, that in the whole Church one Bishop be highest over other Bishops. I mean, for avoiding Schisms.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If ye had better looked on your Books, M. harding, ye would not have been so hasty in dealing Lies. We falsify not that good Father's Words: but report them truly, as we find them. For thus he writeth in sundry places, of john the Bishop of Constantinople, that first avanced himself above all his Brethren, and required to be called the Universal Bishop of all the world: universa Ecclesia â statu suo corruit, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 32  quando is, qui appellatur universalis, cadit: The whole Universal Church falleth from her state, when he falleth, that is called the Universal Bishop. This is no Lie, M. harding: Confer the places: & ye shall find the words, as we report them. It standeth not, neither with your profession, nor with your modesty, so uncourteously to use your tongue. We neither Lie ourselves, nor father Lies upon the Doctoures. God be thanked, his cause is such, as may well be maintained without Lies.  
But, to put you further out of doubt, the sense of these words ye may find often uttered by S. Gregory, in other places. Unto Anastasius, the Bishop of Antioch, 
Gregor. Lib. 6. Episto. 24.  he writeth thus: Vt de honoris vestri iniuria taceam, si unus Episcopus vocatur universalis, universa Ecclesia corruit, si unus Vniversus cadit: To dissemble the injury done to your Honour, if one Bishop be called Universal, then if that One Universal Bishop fall, the whole Universal Church goeth to ground.  
Again he saith in the same Epistle, 
Gregor. in eadem Epistola.  Vos eandem causam Nullam dicere non debetis. Quia, si hanc aequanimiter portamus, universae Ecclesiae Fidem corrumpimus: Ye may not say, This is a matter of no importance. For, if we patiently bear these things, we destroy the Faith of the Universal Church.  
Again he saith, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epistol. 39  In isto Scelesto vocabulo consentire, nihil aliud est, quàm Fidem perdere: To consent unto this wicked Name, is nothing else, but to lose the Faith.  
Again, 
Gregor. Li. 4. Epist. 52. &. 55.  Flens dico: Gemens denuntio: Quia cùm Sacerdotalis Ordo intus cecidit, foris diu stare non poterit: I speak it with tears: I tell it with sigh of Harte: For, seeing the Order of Priesthood is fallen within, it cannot now stand long without  
Again, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 36.  Diabolus ita validè in quibusdam Ecclesiae necessarijs Membris dentes figit, ut nulli sit dubium, quin, nisi unanimiter, favente Domino, cunctorum provida Pastorum turba concurrat, omne, quod absit, citiùs ouile dilaniet: The Devil so strongly fasteneth his Teeth in the necessary Members of the Church, that, unless by God's Grace, the provident company of all Bishops join together, there is no doubt, but he will soon destroy the whole flock: which God forbidden. And again he compareth the Pride of this name with the Pride of antichrist: and saith, that the one shall work the Confusion of the Church, 
Gregor. Lib. 6. Epist. 30.  no less, than the other. Thus he saith, Nunquid non, cùm se Antichristus veniens Deum dixerit, 
Deus.  frivolum vald● erit? Sed ramen nimis perniciosum. Si quantitatem vocis attendimus, Duae sunt Syllabae: si pondus iniquitatis, universa pernicies: When antichrist shall come, and call himself God, shall it not be a very trifle? Yet shall it be marvelous hurtful (to the Church). If ye weigh the quantity of the word, it standeth in two Syllables: If ye consider the weight of the wickedness, it is an Universal destruction. These are no Lies, as it liketh you to call them, M. Harding: They are very plain words: it is the undoubted meaning of S. Gregory. And therefore he calleth this claim of Universal Power, a Superstitio●●s, a Profane, an ungodly, & a Wicked title: a name of Hypocrisy: & a name of Blasphemy.  
To avoid these Authorities, being so pregnant, & so clear, ye are feign to tansy sundry pretty shifts, such as, neither john, nor Gregory was ever able to understand.  
first ye say, 
One Only Bishop.  This john the Bishop of Constantinople meant by this title, utterly to disgrade all Bishops, and patriarchs, what so ever: and to make himself the Only Bishop of all the world. It is a childish labour, to seek a knot in a rush, & to imagine doubts, where the case is clear. It is certain, that the Bishop of Constantinople meant none other Universal Authority, then that now is claimed by the Pope. Therefore it is thus noted in the Book, called Chronicon Eusebij, 
Chronicon Eusebij, Anno. 607.  Institntum fuit, ut Romana Ecclesia Caput esset Ecclesiarum omnium: cùm priùs Constantinopolitana id usurpare tentasset: Order was taken, that the Church of Rome should be the Head of all Churches: whereas before, the Church of Constantinople had attempted to Usurp the same. Which thing is also noted by Mathias Palmerius of Florence, & that without any manner difference, or change of words. 
Mathias Palmerius.  Sabellicus saith, Bonifaciusz. egit ab initio administrationis suae cum Phoca, 
Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6.  ut Romana Ecclesia esset omnium aliarum Caput. Estque id aegrè, nec sine multa contentione Apostolicae Sedi datum. Graeci id ad se decus trahentes, ibi Christianae Pietatis Arcem esse oportere aiebant, ubi & Imperij: Bonifacius the third, at the first enitre into his office, was an earnest suitor unto the Emperor Phocas, that the Church of Rome might be the Head of all other Churches. Which thing hardly, and with great labour was granted to the apostolic See of Rome. The Grecians drawing the same honour unto themselves, said, It was necessary, the Head of Christian Religion should be there, where as was the Head of the empire: which was at Constantinople.  
Likewise writeth Vrspergensis: 
Vrspergensis in Phoca.  At the request and suit of Pope Boniface, Phocas the Emperor appointed the See of the apostolic Church of Rome, to be the Head of all Churches. For before that time, the Church of Constantinople wrote herself the First, or Chief of all others.  
By these it may appear, M. harding, it was great folly for you, thus to ca●●●l at the name. For the Power, and jurisdiction, then claimed by the Bishop of Constantinople, and afterward usurped by the Bishops of Rome▪ was all one. Therefore S. Gregory saith to john the Bishop of Constantinople, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38.  Tu quid Christo, universalis Ecclesiae Capiti, in Extremi judicij dicturus es examine, qui Cuncta cius membra tibimet conaris universalis appellatione supponere? What answer wilt thou make, at the trial of the last Judgement, unto Christ the Head of the Universal Church, which thus by the name of Universal Bishop, seekest to make all his Members subject unto thee? Even the self same Universal power claimeth now the Bishop of Rome: and seeketh to make all other Bishops through the world, and the whole Universal Church of Christ, thrall and subject unto him.  
The Bishops of Constantinople fell sometimes into Heresies, & were deceived. But Christ hath prayed for Peter, that his Faith should not false. Ergo, say you, The Bishop of Rome can never possibly be deceived. O, M. harding, let shame once force you to refrain these Vanities. I doubt not, but hereafter in place convenient I shallbe able to show, that there have been me Heretics placed in S. Peter's Chair, even in the See of Rome, than you are able to find in any one See within Europe.  
Verily, S. Gregory's reason, touching the danger, & Confusion of the Church, weigheth no more against the Bishop of Constantinople, then against the Bishop of Rome. For thus he saith, If he, that is called the Universal Bishop, happen to err, than needs must the whole Universal Church fall together with him into error, And therefore if ye had perused the Council of Basile, ye should have found this self same reason alleged there, not against the Bishop of Constantinople, but against the Pride, 
Concil. Basilien. in Epist. Synodal.  and Arrogancy of the Bishop of Rome. The words be these: Alioqui, errant Pontifice, sicut saepè contigit, & contingere potest, to●a erraret Ecclesia: 
The Pope himself disclaimeth, etc.  Otherwise, when so ever the Pope erreth, as he hath often erred, and may err again, the whole Church should err with him. Thus wrote the Bishops, and, by your own judgement, Catholic Bishops, in the Council of Basile: yet had they not forgotten the Prayer, that Christ made for S. Peter.  
And therefore Franciscus Zarabella, a notable canonist, and Cardinal of the Church of Rome, seeing the great enormities, that grew hereof, saith thus: Papae faciunt quicquid libet, 
Francis. Zarabella: Creature ab Illyrico, De Sectis.  etiam illicita: & sunt plusquam Deus. Ex hoc infiniti secuti sunt errores. Quia papa occupavit omnia iura inferiorum Ecclesiarum: ita ut inferiores Praelati fint pro nihilo. Et, nisi Deus succurrat statui Ecclesiae, universalis Ecclesia periclitatur: The Popes do now, what so ever they list to do, yea although it be unlawfultand are become more then God. Hereof have followed infinite Errors. For the Pope hath invaded, and entered upon all the right of the inferior Churches: so that the inferior Bishops may go for nought. And unless God help the state of the Church, the Universal Church is in danger. Thus hitherto, M. Harding, ye have found no lie.  
Now, where ye would seem to say, Gregory so reproved the Bishop of Constantinople, that nevertheless he claimed the same Title, & Universal Authority to himself: may it therefore please you herein to stand to the judgement of S. Gregory himself, of whom, I reckon, ye do not doubt, but he understood his own meaning. doubtless, if ye had so diligently considered S. Gregory, as ye bear us in hand, ye should have found, that, touching any his own right herein, he Disclaimeth this Title, & refuseth it utterly. For so he writeth to the Emperor Mauritius: 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 32. In eadem Epist.  Nunquid ego in hac re, pijssime Domine, propriam causam defend? O my most Graceouse Lord, do I herein quarrel for mine own right? Again he saith, Non mea Causa, sed Dei est Non ego solus, sed tota turbatur Ecclesia: Quia piae Leges, quia venerandae Synodi, quia ipsa Domini nostri lesu mandata, Superbi, atque pompatici cuiusdam Sermonis inuentione tuibantur: It is God's cause: It is not mine. Not I only am troubled therewith, but also the whole Church. For the Godly Laws, the Reverend Synods, and the very Commandments of our Lord jesus are broken by the invention of a certain proud, 
In eadem.  and pompous Name. Again, Nullus Romanorum Pontificum hoc Singularitatis Nomen assumpsit: Nullus Decessorum meorum hoc tam profano vocabulo uti consensit: Nos hunc honorem nolumus oblatum recipere: 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 36.  None of all the Bishops of Rome ever took upon him this name of Singularity: None of my Predecessors ever consented to use this ungodly style: we ourselves will not receive this honour, though it were offered.  
Thus it appeareth by the judgement of S. Gregory, that this Universal Authority is utterly unlawful, not only in other Bishops, but also even in the Bishop of Rome.  
touching the place of S. Jerome, I see, ye are content to give over, and to recant your former error. For in your first Book, ye say, these words are Notable above others: and therefore might not be dissembled. And where S. Jerome saith, 
M. Hard. Fol. 80.  The safety of the Church hangeth of the Dignity of the High Priest (meaning thereby every several Bishop within his own limits) ye thought it good, thus to lard the same, by a proper parenthesis, with certain other special stuff, of your own provision: He meaneth the Pope, Peter's Successor: as if this High Priest, of whom S. Jerome writeth, could be none other, but the Bishop of Rome. Now upon some better advise, & by way of Retractation, ye say thus, This peerless Authority above all other, S. Jerome doth attribute to the Bishop of every Diocese: which in deed was the very meaning of S. Jerome. Certainly, if S. Jerome, by these words, meant Only the Bishop of Rome, as ye told us before, than he meant not the Particular Bishop of every Diocese, as ye tell us now. Therefore ye must needs confess, that either now, or before, ye have sought means to beguile your Reader. As for the Pope, Peter's Successor, he meant no more of him, then of any other Bishop. If it shall likewise hereafter please you, to call in other your like oversights, ye shall publish more truth, and encumber your Reader with less error.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 3.  
bernard the Abbate, above four hundred years paste, writeth thus: Nothing is now sincere, and pure amongst the clergy: wherefore it resteth, that the Man of Sin should be revealed. The same bernard in his Treaty of the Conversion of S. Paul, It seemeth now, saith he, that Persecution hath ceased: no, no, persecution seemeth but now to begin, and that even from them, which have chief pre-eminence in the Church. Thy friends and neighbours, O God, have drawn near, and stood up against thee: from the sole of the foot to the crown of the head, there is no part whole. Iniquity is proceeded from the Elders, the ludges and deputies, which pretend to rule thy people. We cannot say now, Look how the people is, so is the Priest. For the people is not so ill, as is the Priest. Alas, alas, O Lord God, the self same persons be the chief in persecuting thee, which seem to love the Highest place, and bear most rule in thy Church. The same bernard again upon the Canticles writeth thus: All they are thy friends: yet are they all thy foes: All thy kinnesfolke: yet are they all thy adversaries. Being Christ's servants, they serve antichrist. Behold in my rest, my bitterness is most bitter.   

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 1.  
Roger Bacon also, 
In Likello de idiomate linguarum.  a man of great fame, after he had in a vehement Oration touched to the quick the woeful state of his own time, These so many errors, saith he, require and look for antichrist. Gerson complaineth, that in his days all the Substance, and efficacy of Sacred Divinity was brought unto a glorious contention, & oftentation of wits, & very Sophistry. The poor men, called pauperes à Lugduno, men, as touching the manner of their life, not to be misliked, were wont boldly to affirm, that the romish church (from whence alone all Counsel, and Order was then sought) was the very same Halot of Babylon, and rout of Devils, whereof is Prophesied so plainly in the Apocalyps.  

M. harding.  
Now cometh me he in with a new band, which consisteth of tag and rag, and a weak company, God knoweth, they be to show their faces against the Catholic Church, which (as the Holy Ghost speaketh by Solomon) is terrible like an army of men set in battle ray.  
first friar Bacon the conjuror, and negromanser, as commonly they say o him, he is set in the forward, a man of great fame forsooth.  
Then cometh in the good plain father Gerson, a writer in our grandfathers time: he complaineth, that Friars and students gave themselves too much to the unprofitable subtility of Scholastical questions. What maketh this against the faith of the Church?  
After these, this Defender placeth in an out wing the fall brethren of Lions, commonly called Waldenses, or Pauperes de Lugduno, notorious Heretics condemned of the Church. These being detestable Heretics condemned of the Church, we reck not what they say, no more than what Luther saith, what Zuinglius, what Caluine, what these Defenders themselves say, what antichrist, what Satan saith. For the enemies of God's truth may not be admitted to give witness against the Truth.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Of these last Authorities, which ye call tag, and rag, we never made any great account. notwithstanding both johannes Gerson, and Rogerus Bacon were notable, and famous in their times, and in all respects comparable then with the best. Plain Father Gerson (for by such words ye thought if best to quail his credit, being otherwise counted a subtle disputer, and a profound School doctor) was Chauncellar of the University of Parise: and for his wisdom, and Learning, was thought worthy to be the Directoure of all the Bishops in the Council of Constance.  
Rogerus Bacon, as it appeareth by his Book, De Idiomate Linguarum, was able to judge of the Latin, Greek, and Hebrewe tongues: and difides diverse other Books, writeth also sundry Epistles unto Pope Clement: wherein he much complaineth of the ruin, and Confusion of the Church. Certainly the weakest of these both, hath more weight, and Substance, then either your Amphilochius, or your Abdias, or your Hippolytus, or your Leontius, or your Anacletus, or your Pope Clemens, whom ye so often call the Apostles fellow.  
How be it, there is no man so simple, but may bear witness to the Truth. Clemens Alexandrinus, Lactantius, Arnobius, Eusebius, S. Augustine, & other Holy Father's thought it no prejudice to their cause, to allege the witness of the Frantic Sibylles: S. Paul allegeth the Authorities of the Heathen Poëtes, Aratus, Menander, Epimenides, that never knew God: Christ thought it no scorn, to receive witness at Infant's mouths: No, he refused not the Devils, when they bare witness with him, and said, We know, that thou art Christ the Son of the Living God. Pauperes à Lugduno found fault with the Pride of the Pope: 
Aeneas Silvius in Historia Boemica.  with the lewd life of the clergy: with Purgatory: with Holy Water: with pardons: and with other your like deceivinge of the people.  
They translated the Bible: and prayed in their natural known mother tongue. These were their Errors: Therefore were they called detestable Heretics: therefore were they condemned by your Church of Rome. But Gods Name be blessed for ever. Sithence that time the Pope's painted Power hath still abated: and these poor detestable condemned Heretics have still increased.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division, 2.  
I know well enough the Authority of these foresaid persons willbe but lightly regarded amongst these men▪ How then if I call forth those for witnesses, whom they themselves have used to honour? What if I say, that Adrian the Bishop of Rome did frankly confess, that all these mischiefs burst out first from the high Throne of the Pope?  

M. harding.  
Here have we a man of straw set up, 
Rome the root of ill.  whom this defender nameth Adrian Bishop of Rome. He giveth him a waze of straw in his hand, that a far of seemeth to be a sore weapon, taken out of the armory of Platina, 
* A great solic. For Platyna was dead threescoare years before Adrian. 6 was Pope.  as is pretended. But when ye come near and behold what fellow this is, and confer with Platina, touching his weapon, ye see it to be a feigned thing. For there is no such saying by Platina attributed to any of the 
‡ Untruth vain, and unadvised. For Platyna writeth not one word of Adriane the sixth.  six adrian's Bishops of Rome, ‡ whose lives he writeth. And more there were not. Therefore where you say, What if I say, that Adrian, etc. I answer thereto, that if you so say, you say a false lie.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
touching this pretty fancy of a man of Clouts, and a waze of straw, I see well, M. harding, ye thought it good policy, to clout up the matter, and to satisfy your Reader with a strawen answer. The straw was in your eyes, M. harding, & not in the man. Ye stood too far aluffe: your eyes dazzled: and therefore ye knew not, what ye saw. If ye had drawn near, ye should soon have found your own error. It was no man of straw, but Pope Adrian the sixth, and last, that we spoke of: unless ye think the Pope's Holiness to be a man of straw. For thus he pronounced at Norinberg in Germany in the great assembly of the empire, by the mouth of Cheregatus his Legate a Latere. A Sacerdotibus iniquitatem populi dimanare: multis nunc annis, graviter, multisque modis peccatum esse Romae: 
johan. Sleidanus Lib. 4. Ann. 1523.  & inde à Pontificio Culmine malum hoc, atque luem ad inferiores omnes Ecclesiarum Praefectos defluxisse: Thus Pope Adrian bade his Legate say, That the iniquity of the people grew from the Priests: And that now, for the space of many years, there have been great, and grievous offences committed in Rome: And that all this plague, and mischief hath flowed unto all the inferior Rulers of the Church, even from the High Throne of the Pope's Holiness. This same story is also extant, 
Fasciculus rerum Sciendarum.  printed at Colaine in a Book called Fasciculus rerum Sciendarum.  
Thus therefore once again we say, M. harding, that Pope Adrian. 6. frankly confessed, that all these mischiefs proceeded first even from the Throne, or Seat of the Pope's Holiness: and, saying the same, notwithstanding your uncivil speech, we say no lie.  
And, lest ye should think, this Legate Cheregatus either of foregeatefulnesse, or of malice, did his errant otherwise, than he had in Commission, the like words have since been uttered in your own late chapter at trident by Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto. These be his words: Effecerunt tandem, ut Pietas in Fucum, 
Cornel. Bitontinus in Concil. Tridenti.  & Hypocrisim, etc. They have brought to pass, that Godliness is turned into Hypocrisy: and that the savour of Life is turned into the savour of Death. Would God they were not gone wholly with general consent, from Religion, to Superstition: from Faith, to Infidelity: from Christ, to antichrist: from God, to Epicure: saying with wicked heart, and filthy mouth, There is no God. Neither hath there been this great while any pastor, or Pope, that regarded these things. For they all (both Pope, and others) sought their own: and not so much as one of them (neither Pope, nor Cardinal) sought for the things, that pertain to jesus Christ.  
Therefore, M. harding, ye may henceforth spare your unsavoury, and bitter speeches: For in these reports there is no lie.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 3.  
Pighius acknowledgeth herein to be a fault, that many Abuses are brought in, 
Errors in the Mass.  even into the very Mass, which Mass otherwise he would have se●●e to be a most reverend matter. Gerson saith, that through the number of most fond Ceremonies, all the Virtue of the Holy Ghost, which ought to have full operation in us, and all true godliness is utterly quenched, and dead. Whole Graecia, and Asia complain, how the Bishops of Rome with the martes of their Purgatories and Pardons, have both tormented men's Consciences, and piked their purses.  

M. harding.  
In deed pighius in his sixth controversy, speaking of private masses, denieth not but certain abuses be crept into that most Holy and most healthful thing, for so he speaketh. And adding further, we snow (saith he) to what man, and to what men it pertaineth the same to correct. And let each man acknowledge his own measure, and understand his duty. As who should say, it is not mere for every man to take upon him to amend any thing that is amiss about the Mass. For he meaneth not that the Mass itself is erroneus, as full well there he declareth: but that men be faulty in abusing that most Holy Sacrifice. For many come to the Altar, unworthily. Many be present at it, that ought not to come within the Church doors. Some Priests be of so lewd lives, and of so unreverent behaviour at it, as it were better they abstained Albeit, I think, he meant rather such abuses, as the learned Fathers of the provincial Council of Coulen would to be amended: to wit, certain peculiar offices of Masses devised by men of late years besides the ordinance of the Ancient forefathers.  
As for the other great troop ye bring with you out of Grece and Asia, first, we require you to make them agree with yourselves, and with the Catholic Church about the procession of the Holy Ghost, and then we shall answer both you, and them concerning your grievous matter of Purgatory and Pardons. It is not our manner to take the sayings of Heretics for good and sufficient Authority.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In deed, M. harding, here ye hew over high. Ye take upon you to make us understand Pigghius meaning: & yet by your own Confession it appeareth, ye never knew yourself, what he meant. Ye say, He found fault with the unworthiness, either of the Priests, or of the people, ye know not, whether: or with some what else, noted in the late Chapter of Colaine, ye know not, what. Yet what so ever it shall please you to imagine, ye think, you have wrong, if we believe you not immediately upon your word. But Pigghius himself, whoes tale ye would so fame tell, saith not, as you would make him say, Abuses have crept into the Priest, or People, But plainly, and simply he saith, Errors have crept into the Mass.  
How be it, These Errors, ye say, what so ever they be, no man may redress, but only the Pope. 
Extra, de Translatione Episcopi, Quamto. In Gloss. Extra, de Concess. Praebendae. Proposuit: In Glossa.  And good cause, why. For your Doctoures say, Papa ex nihilo potest facere aliquid: the Pope of nothing can make some thing: And, what so ever he do, noman may say unto him, Domine, cur ita facis? Sir, why do you so? And the very heart, and root of all your Divinity of Louvain is this, Christ hath prayed for Peter: Ergo, the Pope can never err. But if ye mean plainly, and, if there be no dissimulation, nor Hypocrisy in your words, tell me, I befeche you, even as you desire to be believed, Of all the Errors the Phigghius meant, for the space of these forty years, what one error hath the Pope redressed? Their is no plainness in this dealing, M. Harding. Your mind is not to seek redress, be the fault never so evident: but still to continue yourselves in credit, and the world i● error.  
All the Christians of Graecia, 
Graecia, and Asia.  and Asia, ye say, be Heretics: and therefore ye reck not, what they say. No doubt: for they say, the Pope is not the Head of the Church. 
Dist. 22. Omnes.  Which thing who so ever denieth, saith Pope Nicolas, must needs be holden as an Heretic. Thomas Aquinâs for that good affection, & reverence, he bore towards the Pope, saith thus, Dicere, Papam non habere universalis Ecclesiae Primatum, est error similis errori dicentium, Spiritum Sanctum à Filio non procedere: To say, that the Pope hath not the Primacy of the Universal Church, it is an error like unto the error of them, that (maintain Heresy touching the Holy Trinity, and) say, The Holy Ghost proceedeth not from the Son of God. Of your readiness herein Ludovicus vives writeth thus, Augustinum Vetustas sua tuetur. Qui si reviuisceret cum Paulo, certe ille contemptui esset Rhetorculus, 
Lodovicus Vivet in Li 13. De ●iuitate Dei, Ca 24  aut Grammaticulus: Paulus verò vel insanirè, vel Haereticus videretur: S. Augustine is safe now because of his age. But if he, and Paul were alive again, he should be shaken of as a bad Rhetorician, or a poor Grammarian. But S. Paul should be taken, either for a mad man, or for an Heretic.  
Now judge you, M. harding, what Church of yours is this, where as S. Paul, the Apostle of Christ, if he were now alive, should go for an Heretic. Vesputius, as I remember, after he had travailed far, & had seen the Manners, & Religions of many Countries, saith thus, Graeci implicati sunt multis Erroribus: The Greeks are entangled with many Errors: But he addeth withal: Faxit Deus, ne & Latinis multae irrepserint Stultitiae. God grount, there be not many follies entered also into the Church of Rome.  
Surely, the Christian men, that be this day in Graecia, and Asia, utterly abhor the Pope, 
Paulus Aemylius, Pantaleon.  with all the deformities of his Church. The Greek Emperor Michael Palaeologus, for that he had submitted himself to the Pope, in the late Council of Florence, was therefore afterward abhorred, and hated of his people, while he lived: and being dead, was forbidden Christian Burial. Isidorus the archbishop of Kiovia in Russia, for that, being returned from the said Council, he began for unities sake, 
Mathias à Michovia, in Novo Orb.  to move the people to the like submission, was therefore deposed from his Bishopric, and put to death.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 1.  
As touching the Tyranny of the Bishops of Rome, and their Barbarous Persianlike Pride, to leave out others, whom perchance they reckon for enemies, because they freely, & liberally find fault with their vices, the same men, which have lead their life at Rome in the Holy City, in the face of the most Holy Father, who also were able to see all their secrets, and at no time departed from the Catholic Faith, as for example. Laurentius Valla, Marsilius Patavinus, Francis Petrarke, Jerome Savanorola, abbot joakim, baptist of Mantua, and before all these, bernard the Abbate, have many a time and much complained of it, giving the world also sommetime to understand, that the Bishop of Rome himself (by your leave) is very antichrist. Whether they spoke it truly, or falsely, let that go: sure I am, they spoke it plainly. Neither can any man allege, that those Authors were Luther's, or Zuinglius Scholars: for they lived not only certain years, but also certain ages ere ever Luther, or Zuinglius names were heard of.  

M. harding.  
If this Defender were compared to a mad dog, some perhaps would think it rude, and an unmannerly comparison. Let the man be as he is, who so ever he be: verily the manner and fashion of both is like, how so ever I be content, his person be honoured with the due regard of a man. For as the mad dog runneth up and down, here and there, and now biteth one thing, and then an other, snappeth at man and beast, and resteth not in one place: So this Defender, to deface the Church, showeth himself to have a very unquiet head. Now he runneth at the Bishop of Rome, then at the whole clergy. Now he barketh at errors in Doctrine, and showeth none, than he snappereth at manners, and backebiteth men's lives. Now he bringeth forth Scriptures, and them he stretcheth and racketh, but they reach not home. Then cometh be to the Doctoures, and maketh them of his side whether they will, or no. From Doctoures he runneth to Conjurers, to riminge poets, and to Heretics themselves. I think they had rather run to the Turks, than the Catholic Faith should be received. And here leaving that he took in hand to prove, that the Church erreth in necessary Doctrine, he flingeth at the tyranny and pride of the Bishops of Rome, and bringeth in for witness against them, white and black, good and bad. So he hurt them, he careth not how, by what means, ne by what persons.  
first to get credit, he uttereth a manifest lie, saying of them all, they led their life at Rome in the Holy City under the nose of the most holy Father, and might see all his secrets, and never foresooke the Catholic Faith. His witnesses be these: Laurence Valla, Marsilius of Padua, Francis Petrarch, Jerome Sauonarol●, joachim Abbot, baptist of Mantua, and S. bernard, whom of spite he calleth bernard the Abbot. Now let us see how many lies here be made at once. Whereas of all these 
‡ Untruth. For Mantuane dwelled in Rome: Petrarcha was made Poente in Rome: Savanorola was often in Rome, etc.  never a one lead his life at Rome, but Laurence Valla, who was a Canon of Laterane, and this Defender saith that all did: there is one lie. That all these might see the Pope's secrets, there be two lies. That none of these foresooke the Catholic faith, 
* Untruth. Otherwise show, wherein they foresooke the Faith.  there be three lies. As for Laurence Valla, he was not in every point very sound, as it appeareth in his Book of Free will, and in his annotations upon the new Testament. In allthings he handled, he showed himself new fangled, rather then groundedly learned, as well in grammar and logic, as in divinity.  
But Mars. lives of Padua, to please the Emperouve Ludovicus Bavarus, who lived above two hundred years passed, through malice conceived against Pope john the xxij of whom the said Ludovicus was for just causes excommunicate, went so far in schism. 
‡ Untruth. Otherwise show, in what Article he was an Heretic.  as at length he fell into Heresy.  
And Abbot joachim, whiles he reproved Peter Lombarde, 
* This is Vncerra●ne. Read Luther touching the same.  uttered Heresy contrary to the Catholic faith, touching the Trinity: and therefore his book was condemned by the Church, though his person was not condemned, because he submitted himself, and his writings to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, as we find in the Decretals. That all these have greatly and often complained of the Bishops of Rome their tyranny and pride, 
‡ Untruth. For this will soon appear.  there be four lies. 
Extra, de summa●nit. & fide Cathol, Cap. 2.  That they declared the Pope himself to be very antichrist, 
* Untruth. For by most express words they call him antichrist.  there be five lies. And whereas, to make this shameless lie, you ask leave, so we ask leave of you to tell it you, and to challenge you of a lie, and saieplainely unto you, that speaking of them all, you bely them, and that you shall never be able to prove that you say of them.  
Francis Petrarch the Italian Poente, and baptist of Mantua the Latin Poëte, speak like Poëtes, each of them once in their works against the evil manners of the Court of Rome. But what proof maketh all this, that the Roman Church, that is to say, the West Church, which only remaineth, and ever hath remained whole and sound of Faith, erreth in Doctrine? Or what argument can you gather out of all these, I will not say against the life, but against the office, Authority, and dignity of the Bishop of Rome? The argument, you can make hereupon is this: Poëtes reprehend the vices of the Court of Rome: Ergo, the Pope is antichrist. Or, ergo the Catholic Church erreth, and is to be forsaken. What force is in this reason, every reasonable man, be he never so mean of wit, may soon judge:   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Your Comparison of Mad Dogs, M. harding, becometh well the rest of your Courteous eloquence. 
antichrist.  Who so shall mark, how vainly you snap at, what so ever ye can imagine, is in your way: now at our Logic: now at our Rhetoric: now at our Greek: now at our Latin: now at our Lameness: now at our lean Cheeks: now at our thin Beards: now at our Superintendenteshippes: now at our Ministershippes: now at our Mastership's: now at our Mashippes, (for this is the sobriety, and gravity of your speech): and further how greedily, and eagerly ye fasten your teeth, and feed yourself with Wind, and are still snapping, and catch nothing: although in regard of manhood he spare to call you a Mad Dog, as it liketh you to call others, yet he may well think you scarcely to be a sober man.  
Christ found fault, sommetime with the Bishops: Sommetime with the Priests: Sommetime with the Scribes: sometimes with the Phariseis: Sommetime with the People: Sommetime with their Religion: Sommetime with their Traditions: Sommetime with their Ignorance: Sommetime with their Prayers: Sommetime with their fastings: sommetime with their Life: Sommetime with their Hypocrisy: Sommetime with their Cruelty: And thus in your fantasy, he ran hither, and thither, up, and down. Yet, I trow, ye will not touch him with your Comparisons, nor say therefore, as ye say to us, he had a very unquiet Head.  
Who so hath eyes to see, and considereth the miserable Abuses of the Church of Rome, touching either Life, or Religion, cannot lightly want just matter to reprove. Ye remember, what Church it is, whereof S. bernard saith, 
Bernardus in Conuersione Pauli, Sermo. 1.  A planta pedis, usque ad verticem Capitis non est Sanitas ulla: Non est iam dicere, ut Populus, sic Sacerdos. Quia nec sic Populus, ut Sacerdos: There is not one whole place from the sole of the foot, to the top of the Head. We may not now say, As is the People, so is the Priest: For the People is nothing so ill, as is the Priest.  
Ye say, these witnesses dwelled not in Rome: and here in a small matter, ye have noted a great lie. How be it, bernard the Abbate, that dwelt furthest of, was twice in Rome: 
Gulielm. Abb. in Vita Bernard. Raphael Volaterran.  and was Chief of Council with Pope Innocentius in his greatest affairs Franciscus Petrarcha was made Poet in the Capitol, and kept Laura his Concubine in the eye of the Pope, and had his most abode in Rome. Laurentius Valla was Cavon of the Cathedral Church in Laterane, and led his Life, and died in Rome. Briefly, S. bernard only excepted, all the rest were Italians, and dwelt never far from Rome: & as it may appear by the plainness of their speech, understood some part of the déepeste Secrets of the Church of Rome.  
Marsilius Patavinus, ye say, was an Heretic: But what one Heresy he defended, or before what judge he was convicted, or where he was either abtured, 
Marsilius Patavinus.  or pounisshed for the same, neither you, nor any of all your Fellows have hitherto told us. Therefore we must think, He was an Heretic without Heresy: 
joachimus Abb. Extra. De Summa Trinitate, & Fide Catholica, Damnamus. Apocal. 17.  as some men be Doctoures without Divinity.  
joachimus Abbess found fault with the Bishop of Rome: And therefore he must needs be an Heretic. As for that he is charged in the Pope's decretals with error, touching the Trinity, it is a great Untruth: as ye may clearly perceive by a Book, that Martin Luther hath purposely written in his Defence.  
But, 
Vergil. Septemque una sibi muro circundabit Arces. Iren. li. 5. Cault.  to come near the matter, and to speak of the thing, that most misliketh you, S. john saith, antichrist shall fit in a City built upon seven Hills: (and so is the City of Rome). Irenaeus saith, The number of Antichrist's Name shallbe expressed by this word, Latinus. Sibylla saith, The greatest terror, and fury of his empire, 
Sibylla, Oratione 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hieronymus ad Algasiam. Gregor. Lib. 6. Epist. 30.  and the greatest woe, that he shall work, shall be by the banks of Tiber. Which circumstances seem plainly to paint out the City of Rome.  
S. Jerome saith, Antichristus fedebit in Templo Dei: vel Hierosolymi, ut quidam putant: vel in Ecclesia, ut veriùs arbitramur: antichrist shall fit in the Temple of God: either at Jerusalem, as some think: or else in the Church (of God) itself: which we take to be the truer meaning. S. Gregory saith, Ego fidenter dico, quoed quisquis se universalem Sacerdotem vocat, vel vocari defiderat, in elatione sua Antichristum praecurrit: I speak it boldly: Who so ever calleth himself the Universal Priest, or desireth so to be called, (as doth the Pope) in the Pride of his heart he is the forerenner of antichrist.  
And when john, than Bishop of Constantinople, had first entered his claim unto this title, 
Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 34.  S. Gregory made answer unto the same, Ex hac eius Superbia, quid aliud, nisi propinqua iam esse Antichristi tempora designantur? By this Pride of his, what thing else is signified, but that the time of antichrist is even at hand?  
Again he saith upon occasion of the same, Rex soperbiae propè est: &, quod dici nefas est, Sacerdotum est praeparatus exercitus: The King of Pride (that is antichrist) is coming to us: and an Army of Priests is prepared: which thing is wicked to be spoken. 
Hieronym. ad Algasiam.  S. Jerome saith, Antichristus omnem Religionem suae subijciet Potestati: antichrist shall cause all Religion to be subject to his Power.  
I will not here take upon me to descry, either the Person, or the dwelling Place of antichrist. Who so hath eyes to see, let him see. These Circumstances agree not unto many. S. 
2. Thessal. 2.  Paul saith, antichrist worketh the Mystery, or secret practice of juiquitie. Whereupon the Gloze saith, Mystica est Impietas Antichristi, id est, Pieratis nomine palliata: The wickedness of antichrist is Mystical: that is to say, (It is not plain, & open, or easy to be espied of every body, but) cloaked under the name of Godliness.  
And, for as much as M. harding thinketh, we misallege these Writers, and violently force them to our side, whether they will, or no, S. bernard saith thus, 
Bernardus Epist. 125. Pag. 1316.  Bestia illa de Apocalypsi, cui datum lest os loquens Blasphemias, & bellum gerere cum Sanctis, Petri Cathedram occupat, tanquam Leo paratus ad praedam: That Beast, that is spoken of in the Book of Revelations, unto which Beast is given a mouth to speak Blashemies, and to keep war against the Saints of God, is now gotten into Peter's Chair, as a Lion prepared to his pray, joachimus Abbess said above three hundred years sithence, 
joachimus Abbess.  Antichristus iam pridem natus est Romae: & altiùs se extollet in Sede Apostolica: antichrist is already borne in Rome: and shall advance himself higher in the apostolic See.  
Arnulphus, 
In Concilio Remensi, Inter Opera Bernardi.  in the Council of Rheims, saith thus, Quid hunc, Reverendi Patres, in sublimi Solio residentem, vest purpurea, & aurea radiantem, quid hunc, inquam, esse censeris? Nimirùm, si charitate destituitur, solaque scientia inflatur, & extollitur, Antichristus est in Templo Dersedens, & sese oftendens, tanquam sit Deus: What think you, Reverend Fathers, of this man (be meaneth the Pope) sitting on high in his Throne, glittering in purple, and cloth of Gold? What think you him to be? Verily, if he be void of Charity, and be blown up, and advanced only with knowledge, then is he Antichrist, sitting in the Temple of God, and showing out himself, as if he were God.  
The Bishops in the Council at Reinspurg say thus, 
Aventinus.  Hildebrandus Papa, sub specie Religionis, iecit Fundamenta Antichristi: Pope Hildebrande, under a colour of holiness (by forebiddinge Priests marriage) hath said the foundation for antichrist. 
Dantes in Cantione. 32.  Dantes an Italian Poëte by express words calleth Rome the Whore of Babylon. Fanciscus Petrarcha likewise saith, Rome the Whore of Babylon: The Mother of all Idolatry, 
Francis. Petrarcha, Epist. 20.  and Fornication: the Sanctuary of Heresy: and the School of Error. I know, these words will seem odious unto many. Therefore I will stay, & spare the rest. The Pope himself, for that he saw, to whoes Person, and credit these things belonged, therefore in his Late Council of Laterane gave strait Commandment to all Preachers, 
Concil. Lateran. sub julio & Leone. Session. 11.  that noman should dare once to speak of the Coming of antichrist.    

The Apology, Cap. 17. Division. 1.  
And what marvel if the Church were then carried away with errors in that time, specially when neither the Bishop of Rome, who then only ruled the roast, nor almost any other, either did his duty, or once understood, what was his duty? For it is hard to be believed, whiles they were idle and fast asleep, that the Devil also all that while either fell asleep, or else continually lay idle. For how they were occupied in the mean time, and with what faithfulness they took care of God's House, though we hold our peace, yet, I pray you, let them hear bernard their own friend. The Bishops (saith he) who now have the charge of God's church, are not Teachers, but Deceivers: They are not Feeders, but Beguilers: They are not Prelates, but pilate's. These words spoke bernard of that Bishop, who named himself the highest Bishop of all, and of the other Bishops likewise, which then had the place of government. bernard was no Lutheran: bernard was no Heretic: he had not forsaken the Catholic Church: yet nevertheless he did not let to call the Bishops, that then were, Deceivers, Beguilers, & pilate's. Now, when the people was openly deceived: and Christian men's eyes were craftily bleared: and Pilate sat in judgement place, and condemned Christ, and Christ's Members to Sword, and Fiere, O good Lord, in what case was Christ's Church then? But yet tell me, of so many, and so gross errors, what one error have these men at any time reformed? Or what fault have they once acknowledged, and confessed?  

M. harding.  
Why Sirs, are ye so well learned, and so holy of life yourselves, that ye take upon you to judge the Bishop of Rome, Christ's chief officer in earth, and all other men, before the time of your Apostates, and Renegade Frters, to have been both impious for not doing their duty, and ignorant for not knowing what was their duty? Was all Virtue so far banished, all necessary knowledge and Christian learning so clean put out, that we must now begin to learn how to believe, and how to live a Christian life of such light preachers, 
The Spirit of Modesty.  Wicked vowbreakers, lewd Lecherous Lurdens, and detestable blasphemers, as your devilish rabble is?  
S. Bernardes' words to Eugenius be these: Age indagemus adhuc diligentiùs, quis sis, etc. Well go too. 
Lib. 2. De consideratione.  Let us somewhat more diligently examine, what manner a man thou art, what person thou bearest for the present time in the Church of God. Who art thou? The great Preieste, the highest Bishop. Thou art the chief of all Bishops, thou art the heir of the Apostles: for primacy thou art Abel, for Government Noë, for Patriarkship Abraham. for holy order Melchiscdech, for dignity Aaron, for Authority Moses. for judgement Samuel, for power Peter, 
* The Pope is Christ.  for thy anointing Christ. Thou art he●to whom the Keys were delivered, to whom the Sheep were committed. There be also other porters of Heaven, and Pastors of flocks. But thou so much far passing all other, as thou haste inherited both names much more indifferent. They have their flocks assigned unto them. each man one. All are committed to thee, the one whole flock to one. Neither art thou only the Pastor of all the Sheep, but also the only Pastor of all the Pastors.  
Wherefore according to thine own Canons, 
The state of the Church of Rome.  other are called into part of care, thou into falnes of power. The Authority of others is restrained to certain prescript bounds: thine is extended even upon those, who have received power over others. Canst not thou, if there be cause why, close up heaven gates against a Bishop, deprive him of his Bishopric, and give him up to the Devil?  
Now hear an other reason which confirmeth that prerogative to thee, as well as the other. The Disciples rowed, 
johan, 12.  and our Lord appeared unto them on the shore, and that in his Body now again restored unto life, which was more comfortable unto them. Peter knowing that it was our Lord, leapt into the sea, 
S. Peter leapeth for the Popedom.  and so came unto him, and the rest came by boat. What meaneth this? Forsooth it was a sign of the singular Popedom of Peter, by which he took into his Government, not one only one Ship, as the other did, each man his own, but the whole world.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Apostates, Renegates, Lecherous Lurdaines, Detestable, devilish rabble? O M. harding, the Vessel, that held this liquor, was not clean. We condemn not your clergy, either for life, or for Learning: but only report therein the judgement of others, your special friends. And therefore, if any thing mislike you herein, the fault is in them, & not in us. S. bernard saith, Your Bishops in his time were not Doctoures, but Deceivers: Not Feeders, but Defrauders: Not Prelates, but pilate's. judge you now, in what case the Church of God stood then, when the Bishops, that were the Guides, and Leaders of the people, might be compared to Pilate, that gave Sentence in judgement against Christ.  
johannes Vitalis a Cardinal of Rome, and therefore in no wise of your part to be refused, 
johan. Vitalis de praelatis & Sacerdot. Hiere. 5.  saith thus, De Sacerdotibus modernis dicit Hieremias: Stupor, & mirabilia facta sunt in terra. Prophetae praedicabant mendacium: & Sacerdotes applaudebant manibus: Et populus meus dilexit talia: Concerning the Priests, that now be, Hieremie saith, Honour, and wonders are wrought upon the Earth. The Prophets have preached Lies: the Priests have clapped their hands at it for joy, and liked it well: and my people hath loved such things.  
Albertus Magnus saith, 
Albertus' in Johannem, Ca 10. EE.  Illi, qui modo ' praesunt in Ecclesijs, plurimùm sunt Fures, & Latrones: plùs Exactores, quàm pastors: plùs Spoliatores, quàm Tutores: plùs Mactatores, quàm Custodes: plùs Peruersores, quàm Doctores: plùs Seductores, quàm Ductores. Isti sunt Nuntij Antichristi, Subuersores ovium Christi: They that now govern the Church, for the most part, be thieves, and Murderers: more Catches, than Feeders: more Spoilers, than Defenders: more Killers, than Keepers: more Deceivers, then Doctoures: more Beguilers, than Cuiders, These be the vauntcurrers of antichrist, the subverters of the Sheep of Christ.  
William Holcote saith, 
Guliel. Holcote in Li. Sapientiae Lectio. 182.  Sacerdotes moderni sunt similes Sacerdotibus Baal: sunt Angeli Apostatici: sunt similes Sacerdotibus Dagon: sunt Sacerdotes Priapi: sunt Angeli Abyssi: The Priests of this time are like the Priests of Baal: They are the Renegade Angels: They are like the Priests of Dagon: They are the Priests of Priapus: They are the Angels of Helle. 
Bernard. in Concilio Remensi.  S. bernard saith, Dicimini pastors, cùm sitis Raptores. Fratres, jesus hodiè elegit sibi multos Diabolos Episcopos. Non sunt pastors, sed Traditores: Ye are called Bishops, but ye are raveners. O my Brethren, jesus at this time hath chosen unto him many Devils to be Bishops: they are not Feeders: they are Traitors. 
johan. Sarisburien. in Polycratico. Li. 6. Ca 24.  johannes Sarisburiensis said boldly unto Pope Adrian the fourth, Ideò mea opinione Papae frequentiùs moriuntur, ne totam corrumpant Ecclesiam: Therefore in my judgement the Popes die the oftener, lest (if they should continue long) they should infect the whole Church.  
Again S. 
Bernard in Cantica, Sermo. 66.  bernard saith, Pudeat Successores Apostolorum Lucem non esse Mundi, sed Modij: Mundi autem tenebras. Dicamus eyes, Vos estis tenebrae Mundi: Let it shame the Successors of the Apostles not to be the Light of the World, but the Light of the bushel: and rather the Darkness of the World. Let us therefore say unto them, ye are the Darkness of the World.  
Through these spectacles we may behold the state of the Church of Rome. For Christ saith, 
Matthae. 6.  If the Light itself, that is in thee, be made Darkness, how great then will the Darkness itself be? How can the City be kept in safety, if the Watcheman be blind, and see nothing? If the Blind lead the Blind, both fall into the pit. 
Matthae. 15. Matthae. 13. Hilari. in Matthae. Canon. 8.  Christ saith, Dormientibus illis, creverunt Zizania: While the Husbandemennes were asleep, than the Cokle, and Darnel grew. S. Hilary saith, Ecclesiae, intra quas Verbum non vigilat, naufragae sunt: The Churches, wherein God's Word watcheth not, suffer shipwreck, and are drowned.  
But bernard, ye say, stoutly maineteineth the Pope's Supremacy. I grant you. Neither did we ever allege him, to prove the contrary. He defendeth also other great, and gross errors, as living in a time of deepest Darkness. But the Reason, 
Bernar. De Consideratione ad Eugenio. Lib. 2. johan. 21.  he useth, seem very weak, specially to win so great a matter. For thus he saith, Peter leapt into the water, and came to Christ: The rest of the Disciples came by boat:  
Ergo, The Pope hath the jurisdiction of all the world.  
Such other pretty Reasons, made in the Pope's behalf, ye may find many. Peter Crab, 
Concil. to. 1. Pagin. 10. Matthae. 17. johan. 21. Luc. 5. Mark. 14. Luc. 22. johan. 1. Matthae. 26.  that lately compiled the Books of Councils, reasoneth thus: 
Peter paid the tribute money for Christ, and himself:  
Christ said unto Peter, Follow thou me:  
Again he said, Lanche forth into the deep:  
Again, Peter art thou asleep? Couldst thou not watch with me one hour?  
And again, From henceforth thy name shallbe Peter:  
And, Peter drew his Sword, and cut of Malchus Ear:  Ergo, saith he, The Pope hath Universal Authority over the whole Church of God.  
notwithstanding, how so ever these Reasons hold, bernard saith, The Popes are the Heads of the Church. True it is. But again the same Bernard saith, The same Heads are the Ministers of antichrist, Deceivers, Defrauders, raveners, Traitors, the Darkness of the World, Woulfes, pilate's, and Devils. And this was sufficient for our purpose. 
Gregor. Homil. 17. in illa verba, Messis quidem multa.  S. Gregory saith, Considerate, quid de Gregibus agatur, quando Lupi sunt pastors: When the Wolf is become the Shepherd, consider then, what may become of the Flock.  
As for that S. bernard saith, The Pope is Abel: The Pope is Noë: The Pope is Abraham: The Pope is Melchisedek: The Pope is Aaron: The Pope is Moses: 
The Pope is Christ.  The Pope is Samuel: The Pope is Peter: The Pope is Christ, I doubt not, but your own Conscience will answer, it is too much. Yet is that a great deal more likely, that others have said, as I have alleged before, The Pope is antichrist. For both Heaven, & Earth knoweth, he is not Christ.    

The Apology, Cap. 18. Division. 1.  
But, forsomutche as these men avouch the Universal possession of the Catholic Church to be their own, and call us Heretics, because we agree not in judgement with them, let us know, I beseech you, what proper mark, and badge hath that Church of theirs, whereby it may be known, to be the Church of God. Yewis it is not so hard a matter to find out God's Church, if a man will seek it earnestly, and diligently. For the Church of God is set upon a high, & glistering place, in the top of an Hill, and built upon the foundation of the Apostles, and Prophets: There, 
Augustin. De unitate Eccle. Catholicae.  saith Augustine, let us seek the Church: there let us try our matters. And, as he saith again in an other place, The Church must be showed out of the Holy, and Canonical Scriptures: and that, which can not be showed out of them, is not the Church. Yet for all this, I wot not how, whether it be for fear, or for conscience, or despair of victory, these men alway abhor, and flee the Word of God, even as the Thief fleeth the Gallows. And no wonder truly. For, like as men say, the Cantharus by and by perisheth, & dieth, as soon as it is laid in balm, notwithstanding Balm be otherwise a most sweet smelling ointment: even so these men well see, their own mat is damped, and destroyed in the Word of God, as if it were in poison. Therefore the Holy Scriptures, which our savour jesus Christ did not only use for Authority in all his speech, but did also at last seal up the same with his own Blood, these men to the intent they might with less business drive the people from the same, as from a thing dangerous, and deadly, have used to call them a Bare Letter, 
Albertus' Pighius in controver De Ecclesia.  Uncertain, Unprofitable, Doumbe, Killing, & Dead: which seemeth to us all one, as if they should say, The Scriptures are to no purpose, or, as good as none at al. Hereunto they add also a Similitude not very agreeable, how the Scriptures be like to a Nose of Wax, or a Shipman's Hose: how they may be fashioned, and plied all manner of ways, and serve all men's turns.  

M. harding.  
Where ye say, the Church is builded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, and showed by the Holy Canonical Scriptures: we confess the same with S. Augustine. When ye add, the Church, which can not be showed out of the Scriptures, to be no Church, we say, that though 
* Untruth. For S. Augustine in the same places, and elsewhere, oftentimes saith the same.  S. Augustine have no such words in the Chapters, which ye allege in the Margin, yet were it never so much granted, that he had those words in that place, they should make nothing for your purpose. S. Augustine in that Book disputeth against the Donatists, who would restrain the Catholic Church to the only Country of afric, denieinge other Christian men to be members thereof. S. Augustine refutinge their Heresy, declareth the Son of God to be Head, and all the true Faithful to be the Body of the Church: and that it is not sufficient to hold with the Head alone, or with the Body alone: but we must hold with both together, if we will be saved.  
The Donatists did grant the Head jesus Christ, and denied his Body the Church. For this cause saith S. Augusiine, Ipsum Caput de quo consentimus, ostendat nobis Corpus suum, de quo dissentimus: Let the Head, upon whom we agree, show unto us his Body, whereupon we disagree. The Head is Christ, who spoke first by his Prophets, afterward by himself, and last of all by his Apostles. In his igitur omnibus quaerenda est Ecclesia. In all these (saith he) the Church must be sought. 
Where the Church is to be sought,   
If thou mark, good Reader, that, which I have here rehearsed out of S Augustine, it is to be seen, that he bindeth not the proof of the Church simply to the Holy Scriptures, 
‡ Untruth. For S Augustine's words are general.  but only in a case, when he hath to do with an Heretic, who will not admit the authority of the Church. Therefore 
* Here M. harding secretly confesseth, that his Church of Rome cannot be showed by the Scriptures.  a true Church may be found, which is not showed in the Scriptures, so the contrary thereof be not showed in the Scriptures. 
Church known by God's word.  Now if these Defenders will have that to be no Church, which can not be showed out of Scriptures, they shall understand, that as therein they play the Donatists, so we must needs folow's. Augustine in bringing Scripture against them, not as the 
‡ Untruth. For S. Chrysostom saith, Nunc nullo modo cognoscitur, quae sit vera Ecclesia, nisi Tantummodò per Scripturas.  only proof in deed (which they falsely say) but as a very good and chief kind of proof, most profitable in all cases, and necessary at such time, as the adversary will admit none other proof, etc.  
Wherefore it remaineth, that it is the synagogue of antichrist, and Lucifer. Who as he fell out of Heaven like a lightning, so he maketh a blaze and show of a Church in the Earth for a time. But as we can tell when it was not borne, so shall it not be long, but that through God's power it will vanish away dispersed, and be scattered by the lightsome Majesty of Christ's true Church, which from S. Peter's time to this day flourisheth in her Head the Bishop of Rome, and in her members throughout the world. 
‡ In the Unity of the B. of Rome.  which abide in the Unity of the same Bishop.  
We esteem and understand the Scriptures to be the sense and the word. If they can pretend the bare word, they think themselves good enough to make a sense of their own. Which bare word, as they misuse it, Pighius perhaps compareth to a nose of wax. But the Scriptures he never meant to dishonour with that similitude. If it were lawful for us to use Scripture after our own interpretation, as they do, we should not lack sufficient matter in the Holy Books to overthrow by our own applieinge all their false opinions and Heresies. 
* Untruth manifest, & shameless. For M. Hard, knoweth, that in the greatest cases, that lie in question, he can allege neither Scripture, nor doctor.  But we are bound to that religious awe, and reverence of them, that except we have an Author to avouch the sense, whereof we take hold, we dare bring forth nothing. And yet read our Books who will, he shall lack neither Scriptures in them, nor witnesses of our interpretation in any controversy of this age. Let it be agreed, that for decision of controversies, such sense of the Scriptures be taken for Scripture, which the Holy Ghost hath taught the Church, and then let the world judge, who flieth the word of God, as the Thief doth the Gallows.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Contrary to that, we have here alleged of S. Augustine, ye say, A true Church may be found, which is not showed in the Scriptures: Whereby it appeareth, ye are loath, your Church should come to the trial of this standard. But, for as much as this quarrel groweth of S. Augustine, let S. Augustine himself be the judge. And, to allege a few words in steed of many, thus he saith, Vtrùm ipsi Ecclesiam teneant, 
Augustin. De unitate Eccle. Ca 16.  Divinarum Scripturarum Canonicis Libris ostendant. Ecclesiam Christi, sicut ipsum Caput Christum, in Scriptures Sanctis Canonicis debemus agnoscere: Whether they have the Church, or no, let them show by the Canonical Books of the Holy Scriptures. We must know the Church of Christ, even as we likewise know Christ, which is the Head of the Church, in the Holy Canonical Scriptures. Again he saith, 
August. Contra Cresconium Cram. Lib. 1. Ca 33.  Ecclesiam sine ulla ambiguitate Sancta Scriptura demonstrat: The Holy Scripture showeth the Church without any doubtfulness.  
Again, Quaestio est, uhi sit Ecclesia. Quid ergo facturi sumus? Vtrùm in verbis nostris eam quaesituri, an in Verbis Capitis sui, Domini nostri jesu Christi? Futo, quòd in illius potiùs Verbis eam quaerere debemus, 
August De unita Ecclesi. Ca 2.  qui Veritas est, & optimè novit Corpus suum: The question, or doubt is, where the Church should be. What then shall we do? Whether shall we seek the Church in our own words, or in the Words of her Head, which is our Lord jesus Christ? In my judgement we ought rather to seek the Church in his Words: for that he is the Truth, and best knoweth his own Body.  
Again, 
August. Eodem Li. Ca 3.  Non audiamus, Haec dico, Haec dicis: Sed audiamus, Haec dicit Dominus. lbi quaeramus Ecclesiam: Ibi discutiamus causam nostram: Let us not hear these words, This say I, This saist thou: But these words set us hear, Thus saith the Lord: there let us seek the Church: there let us discuss our cause. And again, 
In eodem capite.  Nolo Humanis Documentis, sed Divinis Oraculis Sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari: I will not have the Holy Church to be showed by Man's judgement, but by God's Word.  
Likewise saith S. 
Unity of the Church in one Pope.  Chrysostom, Nunc nullo modo cognoscitur, quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi, nisi Tantummodò per Scripturas: Now can noman know, which is the true Church of Christ, but Only by the Scriptures. Again he saith, in like form of words, Volens ergo quis cognoscere, quae sit Vera Ecclesia Christi, unde cognoscat in tanta confusione similitudinis, 
Chrysost. in opere Imperfe. Homil 49. In Eadem Hom.  nifis Tantummodo ' per Scripturas? If a man be desirous to know, which is the true Church of Christ, how can he know it in such a confusion of likeness, but Only by the Scriptures? These words be so evident and so plain, that noman with modesty may well deny them.  
And, whereas you say, All this notwithstanding, A true Church may be found, which is not showed in the Scriptures. S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambrosi, Hexameron. li. 4. ca 8.  Ecclesia fulget, non suo, sed Christi Lumine: The Church shineth (or is known) not by her own Light, but by the Light of Christ, which is, by the Word of God.  
And chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. in johan Homil. 58.  Qui Sacra non utitur Scriptura, sed ascendit aliunde, id est, non concessa via, hic Fur est, & Latro: Who so useth not the Scripture, but geateth up an other way, that is, by a way, that is not lawful, he is a Thief, and a Murtheier.  
Again he saith, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 46.  Jerusalem hîc semper Ecclesiam intellige, quae dicitur Civitas Pacis: cuius Fundamenta posita sunt super Montes Scripturarum: Here by Jerusalem evermore understand thou the Church, which is called the City of Peace: The foundations whereof are said upon the Mountains of the Scriptures.  
Ye magnify your Church of Rome, and say, It shieth on high upon the Mount. Yet S. bernard saith to the Pope, and his clergy, as it is alleged before, Vos estis Tenebrae Mundi: Ye are the Darkness of the World. Therefore ye may not well vaunt yourselves so much of the brightness of your Beams. As for that, ye call our Church the synagogue of Lucifer, and antichrist, we may well suffer it to blow ever, as the vain unsavoury smoke of some impatient Choleric humour. Our cause is not the worse, M. harding, in the judgement of the wise, for that you have learned so readily to speak ill.  
But what Lovanian vanity is this, to say, The Members of the Church of Christ abide in the Unity of the Pope? What Scripture, or doctor, or Father ever told you of such Unity? S. Paul saith, We are alone not in the Pope, but) in Christ jesus. And what so great Unity, can you say, there is, or hath been in your Popes? 
Platyna in Stephano.  Platyna saith, Post Stephanum semper haec consuetudo seruata est, ut acta Priorum Pontificum sequentes antony's infringereat, aut omnino ' tollerent: It hath been an ordinary custom among the Popes ever since the time of Pope Stevin, that the Popes, that followed afterworde, would evermore either break, or abolish the Acts of the Popes, 
Erasmus in Annotationib. in 1. Corin. 7.  that had been before them. Erasmus saith, johannes. 22. & Nicolaus totis Decretis inter se pugnant, idque in his, quae videntur ad Fidei negotium pertinere: Pope john. 22. and Pope Nicolas in their whole Decrees are contrary the one against the other: yea, and that in matters, that seem to belong to cases of the Faith.  
To be short, the Popes have foully corrupted the Scriptures: they have corrupted the Decrees, & Canons of Councils: they have been Sorcerers, Idolaters, Scribes, & Phariseis: They have been Arian Heretics: Nestorian Heretics: Monothelite Heretics: Montaniste Heretics: they have maintained damnable Heresies against the Godhead of Christ: against the person of Christ: against the Will of Christ: & against the Immortality of the Soul: they have hen contrary to themselves, one directly, and expressly against an other: Yet must the Pope bear up the whole Church of God, even as Atlas beareth vy the Heavens? and unless all the world abide in him, is there no Unity in the Church?  
Thus saith Hosius, 
Hosius in Petricovien. Confess. Ca 27.  unum praeesse toti Ecclesiae, usque ade ò est necessarium, ut absque hoc Ecclesia una esse non possit: It is so necessary a thing, that one have the government of the whole, that otherwise the Church of God cannot be One.  
Likewise it is noted in the Pope's own Gloss upon his decretals, Constat Ecclesiam ideo esse unam, quia in universali Ecclesia unum est caput Supremum, scilicet, Papa: It is plain, that the Church is one, for that in the Universal Church there is one Supreme Head, that is, the Pope. An other of your Doctors doubteth not to step yet a little farther, 
Clemen. 5. Ad nostrum. In Glossa. johan. De Parisijs, De Potestate Regia, & Papali, Ca 3.  and thus to expound the words of Christ, Fiet unum Ouile, & unus Pastor: Quod quidem de christo intelligi non potest: Sed de aliquo alio Ministro, qui praesit loco eius: There shallbe one Fold, and one Shepherd. These words we may not understand of Christ, but of some other Minister, that ruleth in his room. By which Doctors Catholic judgement we find, that the Unity of the Church hangeth not of Christ, but of the Pope.  
But these be over vain, and gross vanities. For though the Pope, were no Pope, yea, though antichrist were the Pope, yet is Christ able to hold his Church in perfit Unity. 
●phesi. 4.  S. Paul saith, Christus est Caput, ex quo totum Corpus coagmentatur, & connectitur: Christ is the Head, of whom the whole Body (of the Church) is framed fast, and joined together. Therefore S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. ad Colossen. Homi. 7. Citatur in Cathena in 1. Cap. johannis.  Ex hoc capite Corpus habet, & ut sit, & ut bene sir. Quid relicto Capite Membris adhaeres? Of this Head (that is Christ) the Body hath both to be, and also well to be. What cleavest thou to the Members, and leavest the Head?  
This is the Unity of the Church, that the whole Flock may hear the voice of that One Shepherd, and follow him. And that one Shepherd is Christ the Son of God, and not the Pope. Therefore S. Augustine saith, Per hanc Potestatem, quam solùm sibi Christus retinuit, stat unitas Ecclesiae, de qua dictum est, una est Columba mea: By this Power, which Christ (he saith not, hath given over the Pope, but) hath reserved only to himself, standeth the Unity of the Church: of which Unity it is said, My dove is One.  
Ye say, there appeareth in your Books sufficient abundance of Scriptures, touching any controversy of this age, and that according to the very sense, and meaning of the same, together with the consent, and judgement of the Holy Fathers. But as for us, ye say, we build only upon the bare words, and make a meaning of our own.  
In deed it is no great Mastery for you, to arm yourself with some show of Scriptures. 
Matthae. 4. In Con. Chalcedon. Actione. 2. Athanas. contra Arianos Oratione. 1. Tertullian. De Baptismo.  The Devil was not altogether void of such furniture, when he came to tempt Christ. S. Cyril saith, Omnes Haeretici de Scriptura divinitùs inspirata sui colligunt erroris occasiones: All Herotiques out of the Heavenly inspired Scriptures gather occasion of their error. Athanasius saith, Haeretici Scriptutarum Verbis pro esca utuntur: Heretics use the words of the Scriptures for a bait.  
Tertullian saith, Fidem ex his impugnat, ex quibus constat: An Heretic assausteth the Faith by the same words of God, that breed the Faith.  
But for as much as ye say, ye bear such awe, and reverence unto the Word of God, and in the interpretation thereof follow only the sense of the Holy Ghost, and the judgement of the Doctors and Fathers of the Church, for some trial of your truth herein, let us see, how discreetly, and reverently ye have used the same.  
In your late Council holden at Laterane in Rome, one Simon Begnius, the Bishop of Modrusia, 
Concil. Lateran. Session. 6. Pag. 601.  saith thus unto Pope Leo, Ecce venit Leo de Tribu juda, Radix David etc. Te Leo Beatissime salvatorem expectavimus etc. Behold, the Lion is come of the Tribe of juda, the Root of Devind etc. O most Blessed Leo, we have looked for thee, to be our savour. In your late Chapter at trident Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto said thus, 
Concil. Trident. Cornelius Bitont inus.  Papa Lux venit in Mundum: & dilexerunt homines tenebras magis, quàm Lucem. Omnis, qui màlè agit, odit lucem, & non venit ad Lucem: 
abusing of the scriptures.  The Pope being the Light is come into the World: and men have loved the Darkness more than the Light. Every man, that doth evil, hateth (the Pope that is) the Light, and cometh not to the Light.  
Pope Adrian saith, 
Concil. to. 2. Decreta collecta per Adrianum, Pag. 613.  Papa non iudicabitur à quoquam: Quia Scriptum est, Non est Discipulus supra Magistrum: No man shall judge thee Pope: for it is written, the Scholar is not above his Master.  
The Pope suffered the Ambassadors of Sicilia to lie prostrate on the ground, 
Paulus Aemylius, Lib. 7.  and thus to cry unto him, as if it had been unto Christ, Qui tollis Peccata Mundi, miserere nostri: Qui tollis Peccata mundi, dona nobis Pacem: O thou (Holy Father) that takest away the Sins of the World, have mercy upon us: thou, that takest away the Sins of the World, give us Peace.  
Pope Sixtus saith, Who so accuseth the Pope, can never be forgiven. And his reason is this, 
Concil. tomo. 1. In purgatione Sixti.  Quia qui peccat in Spiritum Sanctum, non remittetur ei, neque in hac vita, neque in futura: He, that sinneth against the Holy Ghost, shall never be forgiven, neither in this World, nor in the World to come. And by these words of the Scriptures, so well applied, he concludeth, that noman may accuse the Pope. And, to leave a heap of other examples (for they are infinite), you yourself, M. harding, have often used the Scriptures in like sort.  
Thus ye say, 
M. Hard. fo. 99 a  The Son of Man came not to destroy (the Souls of men) but to save: Ergo, The substance of Bread in the Sacrament is not annihilate, or consumed to nothing.  
And this, ye say, was the Sense, and meaning of the Holy Ghost: this is the judgement of all the Doctors, and Holy Fathers. Such religious awe, and reverence ye bear towards the Word of God. Yet saith your doctor Hosius, 
Hosius Contra Brentium. Li. 4. Fol. 178. a.  The Scripture, as it is alleged by us, is the Word of the Devil: but as it is alleged, and handled by you, so only it is the Word of God. If ye had not utterly wiped all shame from your faces, ye would neither make such mockeries of God's Holy Word, nor so lewdly abuse the people of God.    

The Apology, Cap. 19 & 20. Division. 1.  
Woteth not the Bishop of Rome, that these things are spoken by his own Minions? or understandeth he not, he hath such Champions to fight for him? Let him hearken then how Holily, & ho● Godly one Hosius writeth of this matter, a Bishop in Polonia, as he testifieth of himself: a man doubtless well spoken, and not unlearned, and a very sharp, and a stomate maintainer of that side. Thou wilt marvel, I suppose, how any good man could either conceive so wickedly, or write so despitefully of those words, which, he knew, proceeded from God's mouth, and specially in such sort, as he would not have it seem his own private opinion alone, but the common opinion of all that band. He dissembleth, I grant you in deed, and hideth, what he is, and setteth forth the matter so, as though it were not he, 
Hosius de Expresso Verbo Dei.  and his side, but the zwenkfeldian Heretics, that so did speak. We, saith he, will bid away with the same Scriptures, whereof we see brought, not only diverse, but also contrary interpretations: and we will hear God speak, rather than we will resort to the naked Elements, or bare words of the Scriptures, and appoint our Salvation to reaste in them. It behoveth not a man to be expert in the Law, and Scripture, but to be taught of God. It is but lost labour, that a man bestoweth in the Scriptures. For the Scripture is a Creature, and a certain bare Letter. This is Hosius saying, uttered altogether with the same Spirit, & the same mind, wherewith in times passed the Heretics Montanus and Martion were moved, who, as it is written of them, used to say, when with contempt they rejected the Holy Scriptures, that themselves knew many more, and better things, then either Christ, or the Apostles ever knew.  
What then shall I say here, O ye principal Posts of Religion, O ye Archegovernours of Christ's Church: is this that your reverence, which ye give to God's Word? The Holy Scriptures, which S. Paul saith, came by the inspiration of God, which God did commend by so many Miracles, wherein are the most perfit prints of Christ's own steps, which all the Holy Fathers, Apostles, & Angels, which Christ himself the Son of God, as often as was needful, did allege for testimony and proof, will ye, as though they were vilwoorthy for you to hear, did them Avaunt? That is, will ye enjoin God to keep silence, who speaketh to you most clearly by his own mouth in the Scriptures?  
Or, that Word, whereby alone, as Paul saith, we are reconciled to God, and which, the Prophet David saith, is Holy, and Pure, and shall last for ever, will ye call that but a bare, and dead Letter? Or will ye say, that all our labour is lost, which is bestowed in that thing, which Christ hath commanded us diligently to search, and to have evermore before our eyes? And will ye say, that Christ, & the Apostles meant with subtlety to deceive the people, when they exhorted them to read the Holy Scriptures, that thereby they might flow in all wisdom, and knowledge? No marvel at all, though these men despise us, and all our doings, seeing they set so little by God himself, and his infallible sayings. Yet was it but want of wit in them, to the intent they might hurt us, to do so extreme injury to the Word of God.  
But Hosius will here make exclamation, and say, that we do him wrong, & that these be not his own words, but the words of the Heretic zwenkfeldius. But how then, if zwenkfeldius make exclamation on the other side, and say that the same very words be not his, but Hosius own words? For tell me, where hath zwenkfeldius ever written them? Or if he have written them, and Hosius have judged the same to be wicked, why hath not Hosius spoken so much as one word, to confute them? How so ever the matter go, although Hosius peradventure will not allow of those words, yet he doth not disallow the meaning of the words.  
For welueare in all Controversies, & namely touching the use of the Holy Communion under Both Kinds, although the words of Christ be plain, and evident, yet doth Hosius disdeinefully reject them, as no better, then Cold, & Dead Elements: and commandeth us to give Faith to certain New Lessons, appointed by his Church, and to, I wot not what, Revelations of the Holy Ghost. And Pighius saith, men ought not to believe, no not the most clear, & manifest words of the Scriptures, unless the same be allowed for good by the Interpretation, & Authority of the Church: whereby he meaneth the Church of Rome.  

M. harding.  
How ignorantly, wickedly, and stubbornly the Author of this Apology burdeneth the reverent Father in God, and Honourable prelate Cardinal Hosius with that he never said, it is not unknown to all men, who have readen that Book, which he wrote, De Expresso verbo Dei, of the express Word of God. Here I ask so much pardon, as to detect an heretical touch or two, before I make direct answer to the foul slandering of Hosius.  
first I note, with what fidelity these new Holy brethren do their things. It may be thought that the Secretary of this new Clergy at his penninge of the Apology, saw not Hosius Book of the express word of God. But as they have been conversant in S. Augustine, Jerome, Chrysostom, and the Ancient Fathers, so use they Hosius at this time: that is to say, they read neither the Old Fathers with any diligence, neither the writers of our time: But by snaps and pieces either themselves writ out here and there a line or two, or use that, which some of their own sect hath taken out of them. So that for most part they never know the true meaning of the place, which they allege. But using patched note books, and bringing in scattered Authorities, they be deceived themselves, and deceive others. And he that took the note, knew well they were not the words of Hosius, and did but only put the name of Hosius unto them, because they were taken out of his Book. The writer of this Apology, not knowing, or not remembering so much, when he found in the note book the name of Hosius with such words, he did rashly put them in print, to his own great shame, and discredit. If this excuse be not true, we must needs lay marvelous malice to the said writer, who wittingly and of set purpose did impute the words to Hosius, which he reported by way of misliking of them, and shewing whose Heresy they contained.  
Now let the Defenders chose, whether they will have their Secretary condemned of ignorance, or of malice. How so ever it be, mark yet the third point, which hereof we will gather. The Apology was scant Printed and published, but that gross error was out of hand espied, and word thereof brought to the Author, I mean him, that penned it. But what did he? Did he confess, that he was deceived? Did he cry Hosius mercy? No, no. That is not the wont of Heretics. They will go forward with the matter once begun, what so ever come of it. What did he then? When it should be set forth in English, and word came to him thereof, he made an excuse, I warrant you meet for an Heretic, whose property it is Proficere in peius, as S. Paul saith, to proceed to worse and worse, to take his degree backward, and of a great fault to make a far greater. For whereas before (as Charitiemoveth me to think) he had made an error, supposing Hosius to have said that, which he had not, after ward by stubborn mainteininge of it, he showeth what spirit he is of. And when he might reasonably have excused his ignorance, chose rather spitefully to discover his malice: As it shall manifestly appear by the circumstance of the thing. He layeth to Hosius charge, and in his person to all our charges, that we do not esteem the Holy Scriptures. He proveth it by certain words alleged out of a treatise made by Hosius De Expresso verbo Dei. The words are here put in the Apology, as the reader may see. The true argument of Hosius book is no other than to show, that all Heretics have alleged the words of God, as they be written: But none of them all have taken the right understanding of God's words, as they do in deed signify. For that only the Catholic Church attaineth unto, because only it hath the Holy Ghost. All Heretics have brought for their opinions the written Word of God so long, until at the last (saith Hosius) there were found, who by the words of the Scriptures took upon them to take away all Authority from Scriptures. Natum est (saith he) nowm quoddam Prophetarum genus, qui non sunt veriti Scripturarum auctoritate Scripturis auctoritatem omnem detrahere. En quò perduxit rem tandem Saranas'? A certain new kind of Prophets is risen, who stick not by the Authority of Scriptures to take away all authority from Scriptures. See whither at the length the Devil hath brought the matter.  
Now afterward expounding this matter more at large, he declareth the captain of that Heresy to have been Zwenkfeldius. He showeth that by a Text of Scripture, where David saith, I will hear, what our Lord speaketh in me: Zwenkfeldius went about to will men to hear what God telleth every man by inspiration, rather than to give attendance to the written word of God. And whiles Hosius reporteth, what Zwenkfeldius said for the maintenance of his fond Heresy, among other his words these are, which be brought in this Apology against Hosius, and against the Catholics: whereas it is neither Hosius, nor any Catholic that speaketh them, but only Zwenkfeldius himself.  
Hitherto we have showed that the words alleged in the Apology under the name of Hosius, make neither against him, nor against us, as not being his words, nor ours, but only the words of Zwenkfeldius. Well, what credit may we give to this man in expounding the Word of God, (whose true meaning he may falsisie at his pleasure, because we can not bring forth God himself to declare his words) seeing he dareth to burden Hosius with these words, which Hosius himself being yet alive can declare to have another meaning, as the Book itself doth witness to all that list to read the same. This was a great fault, to impure so horrible an Heresy to Hosius unjustly. This was a great ignorance, to charge him with that Heresy, which he refuteth and impugneth. They are great crimes, and yet such, as might ri●e of misreport and ignorance. But when he was told of them, he should of reason have corrected them. He should have repent with Peter, and not despaired with Cain and judas.  
But what did he, when he understood he had erred? He addeth a Gloze far more malicious than the former error was. For, graun●inge that Hosius setteth out the matter so, as though neither he, nor any of his side, but the Heretics Zwenkfeldians spoke so, this not withstanding he burdeneth both him and the Catholics with it, saying, that he dissembleth, and hideth what he is. Sir, was this the way to amend your fault, to grant that Hosius spoke against the Zwenkfeldians, and yet to bear men in hand, he favoured them? If he had favoured their Heresy, what needed he to refel it? But how say you, that Hosius dissembleth and hideth what he is sith that even here in two places in most plain words, you lay the Zwenkfeldian Heresy to his charge? Read your own Book. Before the allegation of Zwenkfeldius Heresy, say you not thus? We, saith he, will bid away, etc. And after the allegation, have you not these words, This is Hosius saying? How standeth all this together? You have forgotten the Proverb, that biddeth a liar to be mindful. I can not tell how to name this kind of your dealing, lying, or detraction, slandering, or malicious speaking. But Sir, if Hosius have spoken evil, why give you not witness against him of evil? If he have spoken well, even by your own confession in reputing the Zwenkfeldians for Heretics, why find you fault with him for his good words, such I say, as yourself confess to be good? You reprove him, who speaketh not against Zwenkfeldius: and again you grant he speaketh against him: and yet because you had once reproved him, you will continue in it without reason, learning, or wit. But it must needs so be: for without pertinacy no man is either a perfit Heretic, or a perfit slanderer.  
If yet you stand in Defence of it, all the world will account you for a desperate person. For no man that ever saw Hosius works, can think that he was guilty of that you burden him with. But some man might think you were deceived, and mistook Hosius. But sith you grant, you do not now mistake him, and yet charge him with avouching that, which he holdeth for Heresy: he that understandeth thus much of you, may assure himself, that you are disposed to bely and slander Hosius, though it cost you the damnation of your Soul. For shame man, repent, and revoke that, for which your own conscience stinteth not to bark at you.  
But Hosius (say they) peradventure will not allow the words of Zuenkfeldius: 
The mistaking of Hosius.  yet he doth not disallow the meaning of the words. Well and clerkly reasoned. As though words were allowed or disallowed for any other so principal a cause, as for their meaning. And therefore he that disalloweth words, hath much more disallowed the meaning of them. Yet, (say they) of the Holy Communion under Both Kinds he rejecteth the plain words of Christ, as Dead and cold Elements. Verily a man might think this Book was set forth by some enemy of our new English Clergy, it is so much to their defacing, had not themselves at diverse times acknowledged it for a whelp of their own litter. A man for his life can not find one leaf in it without many Lies.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I cannot greatly blame you, M. harding, though ye show yourself hot, and vehement in defence of Hosius. For of him you, and some of your Fellows may say, as Carneades said sommetime of Chrysippus, Nisi Chrysippus fuisset, ego non essem: If Chrysippus had not been, then had I never been. For had not Hosius been good unto you, and spared you part of his furniture, such as it was, your Divinity had been full bare.  
Ye say, we read neither the Old Writers, nor the New, but are utterly ignorant, and void of all learning: and, in respect of the Beams of your knowledge, know nothing. It were a very ambitious, and a childish vanity, to make vaunts of Learning. For as motche as ye seem desirous of the same of great Reading, ye shall have the whole praise, and glory of it, M. harding, without contention. We will rather say with S. Paul, We know nothing, but only jesus Christ Crucified upon his Cross. Yet notwithstanding we are neither so ignorant, nor so idle, but that we are able, and have leisure to read, as well the Old Doctors, & the Fathers of the Church, as also your light uncivil Pamflettes, and blotted Papers: which, God wot, in all respects are very New. And for either of them, we are much ashamed in your behalf: For the Old Doctors, & Fathers, to see them of your part, either of wilfulness, or of forgeatefulnesse, or of ignorance, so foully misused: of your own Papers, & Novelties, to see them with untruth, and other uncourteous speech so fully freighted.  
But, touching Hosius, ye condemn us utterly, either of ignorance, or of malice. For the words, wherein we find such fault, were uttered by him, as you say, not as any part of his own judgement, but only, as in the person of the Heretic Zuenkfeldius. Therefore, ye say, we charge him wrongfully with the allowing of that thing, which he expressly, and plainly reproveth.  
first of all, the Author of the Apology protesteth, that, if there were any oversight herein, it proceeded only of error, and not of malice: as it may well appear, in that he was not deceived alone. For if he were deceived in mistaking these words, diverse others, the best Learned of this age, have been deceived therein as well, as he. 
Nicolaus Gallus.  Nicolaus Gallus hereof writeth thus, Hosius Cardinalis Legatus Sanctissimi, & praesidens Concili● Tridentini, in suo Libro de Expresso Verbo Dei, ait, Nos verò Dei de Coelo sententiam potiùs expectabimus etc. Non oportet Legis, aut Scripturae esse peritum, sed à Deo doctum. Vanus est labour, qui Scriptures impenditur. Scriptura enim Creatura est, & egenum quoddam Elementum: Cardinal Hosius, Legate unto the most Holy Father, and Precedent of the Council of Trident, in his Book, De Expresso Verbo Dei, saith thus: We will rather wait for Gods will from Heaven, etc. It behoveth not a man to be skilful in the Law of God, or in the Scriptures, but to be taught of God. It is but lost labour that is spent in the Scriptures. For the Scripture is a Creature, and a poor kind of out ward Element. Thus Nicolaus Gallus burdeneth your own Catholic Friend Hosius with these words, and not the Heretic Zuenkfeldius.  
Likewise saith Flacius Illyricus, 
The mistaking of Hosius.  speaking of the same words of Hosius, unum locum ex plurimis proferam, in quo Hosius alterius cuiusdam sententiam de hac re citans, 
Flacius Illyricus in Norma Concilij.  comprobat: Nos Dei de Coelo Sententiam potiùs expectabimus etc. vanus est labour, qui Scriptures impenditur: One place I will allege out of many, where Hosius bringing in the saying of one certain man (meaning Zuenkfeldius) alloweth well of the same. These words, saith Illyricus, Hosius uttereth in the name, & person of Zuenkfeldius: Yet nevertheless he alloweth them, as his own.  
To like purpose writeth jacobus Andreae: who, after he had reported all the foresaid words, 
jacob. Andreae, De Authorita. Sacrae Scripturae.  in the end concludeth thus: Hactenus Hosius: Quae verba sive Hosius suo, sive aliorum nomine recitet, certè hanc else Asoti, & Hosij de Sacra Scriptura sententiam, non est obscurum: Thus far Hosius: which words, how so ever Hosius report them, either in his own name, or in the name of some other, without all doubt, this is the Judgement, that both Asotus, and Hosius have of the Holy Scripture.  
So likewise saith that most Grave and Learned Father johannes Brentius: Intereà vociferantur, 
johan. B●● in Pra●● in lac●● 〈◊〉 dreae contra Hosium.  Sacram Scripturam else Dubiam, Ambiguam, Praeceptorem Mutum, Literan Occidentem, Literam Mortuam: adeoque, fi Reverendis illis Patribus libuerit, Aesopi Fabulas: In the mean while they cry out, that the Holy Scriptures are Blind, and doubtful: a Doumbe Schoolmaster: a killing Writ: a dead Letter: yea, and, if it shall like these Reverend Fathers, no better, than Esopes' Fables. Perhaps ye will say of these Learned men, as ye say of some others, They used only their patched notebooks, and scattered Authorities, by snaps, and pieces, here, and there a line, or two: and understood not, what they wrote. notwithstanding, what so ever it shall please you to say, as therein your grace is very great, yet you see by these few, and must needs confess, if the author of the Apology, thouchinge this place of Hosius, were happily overseen by error, yet he had to many of the best Learned of this age, to keep him company in his error. Verily, they say not, as you say, Thus saith Zuenkfeldius: They say, as we say, Thus saith Hosius: It Hosius were able to blind so many, we must think, he was a skilful Writer.  
The fairest colour, ye can lay hereon, is this: How so ever these words be uttered by Hosius, 
jacob. Andreae.  yet was this no part of his meaning. Yet jacobus Andreae saith, Hanc else Asoti, & Hosij sententiam, non est obscurum: Without doubt this is the very meaning of Alotus, 
Flaci. Illyricus: Alterius cuiusdam sententiam de hac re citans. comprobat.  and Hosius. And Illyricus saith, Hosius alleging the saying of one certain man (whereby he meaneth the Heretic Zuenkfeldius) alloweth well of the same.  
But, for as much as ye say, This Gloze is more maliceous, than the Former error: and that therein we spitefully discover our Malice, without Reason, without Learning, without Wit: and require us to repent for shame, as if it were a Sin, not against Hosius, but against the Holy Ghost, I beseech you therefore indifferently to consider, with what reverence, and modesty, not only Hosius, but also sundry others your Friends of that side, have used to speak, and write of the Word of God.  
Ludovicus a Canon of the Church of Laterane in Rome, in an Oration openly pronounced in your late Chapter at trident, 
Ludovicus, Citatur ab Illyrico in Norma Concilij.  saith thus: Ecclesia est vivum pectus Christi: Scriptura autem est quasi Mortuum Atramentum: The Church is the Lively Breast of Christ: But the Scripture is, as it were, Dead Ink. Likewise said the Bishop of Poiteer in the same your Chapter: Scriptura est res manimis, & muta, 
johan. Sleidanus Lib. 23.  sicut etiam sunt reliquae Leges Politicae: The Scripture is a Dead, and Doumbe thing, as are all other Politic Laws. Albertus Pigghius saith, Si dixeris, haec referri oportere ad judicium Scripturarum, 
Albert. Pigghius controver 3. De Ecclesia.  Communis re sensus ignarum esse comprobas. Sunt enim Scripturae Muti judices: If thou say, These matters must be put over to the judgement of the Scriptures, thou she west thee self to be void of common reason. For the Scriptures are doumbe judges, and cannot speak. Eckius calleth the Scriptures, 
The mistaking of Hosius.  evangelium Nigrum, & Theologiam Atramentariam: The Black Gospel, and Inken Divinity. Again Pigghius saith, Ecclesia habet illam potestatem, 
Martinus Kemnitius in Examine Con. Tridentini, Pag. 32. Martin. Kemnitius, in eodem Examine, Pag. 240.  ut possit Scriptis quibusdam impertiri Canonicam Authoritatem, quam nec ex se, nec ex suis Authoribus habent: The Church hath power to give Canonical Authority unto certain writings, which otherwise they have not, neither of themselves, nor of their Authors. There may be certain Books allowed for Scripture, saith he, that have no credit, nor Authority of themselves. Therefore the meaning hereof must needs be this: The Church (of Rome) hath Authority to make Scriptures. Again he saith, Sunt Scripturae, ut, non minùs verè, quàm festiuè dixit quidam, velut Nasus Cereus, qui se horsum, illorsum, & in quancunque volveris partem, 
Pigghius Hierar. Li. 3. Cap. 3. Fol. 103.  trahi, retrahi, fingique facilè permittit: As one man both truly, and merrily said, the Scripture is like a Nose of Wax, that easily suffereth itself to be drawn backward, and forward, and to be moulded, and falshioned, this way, and that way, and how so ever ye list.  
Thus, M. Harding, ye teach the people to reverence, & weigh the Word of God. Ye call it Dead Ink: a lifeless matter: a dumb judge, that cannot speak: a Black Gospel: Inken Divinity: a Nose of wax: and a thing utterly void of Authority of itself. Examine these places: weigh these words. They are no Lies: They are no slanders. judge uprightly: remove affection: ye shall find, that Hosius, and Zuenkfeldius, touching the Authority, and Credit of God's Word, accord in one. For proof whereof, when objection was made, that King David, being, not a Bishop, but only a Temporal Prince, had written Psalms, that is to say, the very ketes of the Scriptures, Hosius made answer, 
Hosius Lib. 2. Contra Brentium.  Quid ni scriberet? Scribimus indocti, doctic poëmata passim: Written David Psalms? And why should he not write them? Horace saith, We writ Ballads every body, learned, and unlearned: tag, and rag. So unreverently, & like an Heathen, he scorneth, and scoffeth at the scriptures of God, and likeneth the Heavenly Ditties of the Holy Ghost, to a Vile, Heathenish, Wanton ballad. This in Zuenkfeldius had been great Blasphemy: ye allow it in Hosius, as a virtue.  
S. 
Luke. 7.  Luke saith, Pharisaei, & jurisperiti spreverunt consilium Dei in semetipsis: The Phariseis, and Learned in the Law despised the Council of God in themselves. Irenaeus saith, 
Irenae. Li. 3. ca 2.  Haeretici accusant Scripturas, quasi non rectè habeant, necsint ex Authoritate, etc. Heretics find fault with the Scriptures, as if they were not well written, and as if they were not of sufficient Authority, etc. And thus they do, to the end, to cause the people to loath, & doubt the Word of Life, & so to become captive to their own Traditions. 
Cardinal. Cusan. De Authorita. Ecclesiae, & Concilij Supra, & Contra Scripturam.  Therefore Cardinal Cusanus saith thus, Haec est omnium sanè intelligentium sententia: qui Scripturarum Authoritatem, & intellectum in Ecclesiae approbatione fundant: & non è converso, Ecclesiae Fundamentum in Scripturarum Authoritate locant, etc. Dico, nulla else Christi praecepta, nisi quae per Ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt: This is the judgement of all them, that mean well: which found the Authority, and understanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church: But contrary wise lay not the foundation of the Church in the Authority of the Scriptures. Thus I say, There are no Commandments of Christ, but only such, as by the Church are allowed for Christ's Commandments. 
Albert. Pigghius Hierar. Lib. 1. Ca 2.  So saith your highest doctor Albertus Pigghius, A postoli quaedam conscripserunt, non ut Scripta illa praeessent Fidei, & Religioni nostrae, sed potiùs ut subessent: The Apostles wrote certain things, not that their writings should be above our Faith, 
johan. Maria Verractus. Editus. An. 1561. Hosius, De Expresso Verbo Dei Pa. 97.  and Religion, but rather, that they should be under. johannes Maria Verractus saith, Determinatio Ecclesiae appellatur evangelium: The Determination of the Church is called the Gospel.  
Therefore Hosius by his Episcopal Authority pronounceth Sentence Definitive in this wise: Quod Ecclesia docet, Expressum Dei Verbum est: quod contra Sensum, 
The mistaking of Hosius.  & Consensum Ecclesiae docetur, Expressum Diaboli Verbum est: What so ever the Church teacheth (by the Church he meaneth the Pope, and his Cardinals, and the Church of Rome, etc.) that is the Express Word of God: what so ever is taught against the Meaning, and Consent of the Church, that is the Express Word of the Devil.  
This was sommetime an ordinary practice of sundry Old Heretics, to scorn, and to disdain the Scriptures of God: and to ground themselves upon other Conclusions, and imaginations of their own. So the Heretic Carpocrates said, 
Epiphani. Lib. 1. Hear. 27. Tertullian. De prescription.  He knew more, then either Christ himself, or his Apostles.  
Tertullian saith, Discipuli Montani dicunt, Paracletum plura in Montano dixisse, quàm Christum in evangelio protulisse: nec tantùm plura, sed etiam meliora atque maiora: The Disciples of Montanus the Heretic said, that the Holy Ghost uttered more things in Montanus their Master, than ever Christ uttered in the Gospel: and not only moethinges, but also greater, and better things. And again they said, Paulus ex part sciebat, & ex part prophetabat. Nondum enim venerat, quod perfectum est: Paul knew in part, 
Augustin. ad Quoduulideum.  and prophesied in part. For the perfection (that was afterward in Montanus) was not yet come. Therefore it is not universally true, M. harding, that you say, All Heretics have alleged the Scriptures. For some Heretics, in whoes steps ye seem to tread, have made light of, and disdeigned the Scriptures, as well, as you. But, as some Heretics have alleged the Scriptures, as you do, without sense: even so all Heretics are evermore reproved by the Scriptures, as you be. And that is the cause, that you, and your Fellows, for the most part, so fearfully shun the Scriptures. For he that doth evil, fleeth the Light.  
Therefore, whereas ye call us forth, and bid us humbly to cry you mercy, first bid Hosius your Schoolmaster to recant his Errors: will him to speak more reverently of God's Word: for it is Holy: Let him confess, & repent his Blasphemy in comparing the Scriptures of God with Heathenish Ballads. recant you the Errors, that Pigghius, Cusanus, Eckius, and others your Doctoures, and Fellows have set abroad: And the author of the Apology shall do, what so ever shall behove him.  
Remember also, how unjust, and untrue reports you yourself, and your Fellows have witingly, and willingly published, and blazed in writing, not sparing any man, whom it pleased you to touch with slander. You yourself in this self same Book have written thus: 
M. Har. Fol. 141. b.  The Learned Gospelers of the Sea Towns in Saxony teach, that there is no Helle at al.  
An other of your Company there, thus most unjustly slandereth that godly Father doctor Peter Martyr: 
Copus Dialo. 3. Pag. 331.  Petrus Martyr negat, Christum else nostrum Deprecatorem: Peter Martyr denieth, that Christ is our intercessor. Likewise again, with one general slander, he misreporteth all the Professors of the Gospel what so ever: 
Copus Dialo. 6. Pag. 878.  Omnes Euangelici Pseudomartyres negant Christum venisse in Carne: All the Gospelers (whom he thought it better, to call the False witnesses of the Gospel) deny that Christ ever came in the Flesh. I will press you no further with Examples of your immoderate slanders. As your uncourteous tongue hath no bridle, so your waste words have no end.  
All these, and other like reports, your conscience knoweth, are most untrue. Yet have ye not doubted, thus to hazard your whole credit, and vainly with the same to feed the world. Suffer me therefore, M. harding, to answer you with your own words: For shame man, repent, and revoke that, for which your own Conscience stinteth not to bark against yourself.    

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 1.  
And yet, as though this were too little, they also burn the Holy Scriptures, as in times passed wicked King Aza, or as Antiochus, or Maximinus did, and are wont to name them Heretics Books. 
Eusebius. Lib. 1. Cap. 7.  And out of doubt, as it seemeth, they would do, as Herode in old time did in Jewry, that he might with more surety keep still his usurped Dominion. Who being an Idumean borne, and a stranger to the stock, and kindred of the jews, and yet coveting much to be taken for a jew, to th'end he might establish to him, and his Posterity the Kingdom of that Country, which he had gotten of Augustus Caesar, he commanded all the Genealogies, and Petigrees to be burnt, and made out of the way, so that there should remain no record, whereby it might be known to them that came after, that he was an Alien in blood: whereas even from Abraham's time these monuments had been safely kept amongst the jews, and laid up in their treasury: because in them it might easily, and most assuredly be found, of what lineage every one did descend. So (in good faith) do these men, when they would have all their own doings in estimation, as though they had been delivered to us even from the Apostles, or from Christ himself: to th'end there might be found no where any thing able to convince such their dreams, and lies, either they burn the Holy Scriptures, or else they craftily convey them from the people.  

M. harding.  
Pardon me, I pray thee, Reader, if I use words some what vehement, the cause so requiring. This Defender crieth out, O ye pillours of Religion. But how much more justly cry we again to him O thou captain liar, O most worthy, not the reward of a whetstone, but the judgement of abackebiter, of a slanderer, a cursed speaker, of a mocker, of the accuser of the brethren, of a Blasphemer: Is this the regard thou haste, 
All this is M. hardings sobriety: It is no railing.  I say not to God, or to Christian men, but to thine own estimation, and common honesty of a man? Canst thou persuade thyself to great credit by lying? To seem sober by railing? Honest by villainy? Charitable by slandering? Upright by deceit? just by impiety? Why sayest thou of us in general, that is to say, of the Catholic Church, that we despise, hate, cast away, and burn the Holy Scriptures? Had we not loved and kept the Scriptures, how couldst thou and thy fellows have come by them? Had ye not them of us? From the Apostles time to this day we have kept them 
‡ Untruth. For the Old Latin text hath infinite corruptions.  unspotted and undefiled: and ye within these fifty years have by your vulgar translations 
* Untruth. Otherwise let M. Hirdinge show one point of Corruption.  corrupted them, that lamentable it is to consider. And when we burned the same corrupt translations or any part thereof, or any of your Heretical treatises, we burned not the Scriptures, 
‡ But he is a foolish man, that burneth down both the Trees and Caterpillars all together.  no more than one doth the apple tree, that burneth the caterpillars.  
The Scriptures we honourè, and keep most reverently and diligently. Therefore your comparing of us with the wicked Kings Aza, Antiochus, Maximinus, and Herode, is false and slanderous. For how say you, Sir Captain of liars, 
‡ You had it in your Libraries. But the poor people had it not.  had we not the Scripture in every Monastery, Cathedral Church, college, in every private library of any that was learned?  
The like thing was objected to S. Augustine and the Catholics in his time by the Donatists, being then Heretics, as ye are now. To whom he answereth, as we will answer you: Certè ille ignibus tradidisse credatur, qui eis lectis non consentire convincitur. 〈◊〉 Let him be thought to have cast they Holy Scriptures into the fire, who, when they are read, is convict not to consent unto them. We read in the Holy Scriptures, that Christ said, This is my Body. Who believeth it, 
Burning of the Scriptures  ye, 
* Untruth. For we deny it not.  that deny it, or we, who are content to die for the defence of that his real body in the blessed Sacrament? S. james saith, a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Who believeth thus, they, which say that only faith justifieth, or they which say, that works be required also to justify action? 
joan. 6.  Christ saith, 
‡ A worthy Argument, and full wisely applied. Read the Answer,  Qui manducat hunc panem, vivet in Aeternum: he that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. ‡ Who believeth this, they that say both kinds be necessary to lay men by commandment of Christ, or they, who say, that one kind is sufficient to salvation concerning the eating of the Sacrament.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Ye may soon be Pardoned, M. harding, for speaking ill: for as much as, for aught, that may appear by your speech, ye have not yet learned to speak well. Whether ye have burnt the Scriptures of God, or no, both Heaven, and Earth, and Sea, and Land may bear witness. For a poor excuse, ye say, ye have burnt our Errors, and Heretical Translations, and not the Scriptures: as the Housbandeman useth to burn Caterpillars. How be it, he may be thought an unwise Housbandeman, that burneth up his Caterpillars, & Trees too, both together: and, to wreak himself of the one, is content to destroy the other. If all Books containing error should be burnt, then should your Lovanian novels go to wrack. For yewis, M. harding, contention, and vain glory set a part, ye know right well, they are full of Errors. Moreover ye know, there be Errors in S. Augustine: There be Errors in Origen, in Tertullian, in S. Ambrose, in S. Jerome. There be Errors in every of the Ancient Fathers: in the greeks: in the Latins: in one, and other. There be Errors in your School Doctoures: There be Errors in your canonists: Briefly, your Holy Father's Decrees, & decretals are not void of Errors. Yet is there no Book worthy to be burnt, in respect of error, but only the Book of the Scriptures?  
If there were such Errors in the Vulgar Translations, ye should have descried them, although not all, yet for your credits sake, one at the least. Ye should have removed the Error, and have restored the Scriptures, to the use, and comfort of the people. But this is it, that troubleth you so soar: that the Scriptures are published in the Common known tongues, and that the simple people of all sorts (whom otherwise ye call Dogs, and Swine, & filthy brute Beasts void of reason) may understand them. This, M. harding, is that great, and horrible error: This is the error of all Errors. Therefore Irenaeus saith, as it is alleged before, 
Irenae. Li. 1. Ca 2.  Haeretici, cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accusationem vertuntur Scripturarum: Heretics, when they be reproved by the Scriptures, then begin they to find fault with the Scriptures. 
Ambros. in Lucan Lib. 3. Cap. 3.  And therefore S. Ambrose saith, Herodes conscius ignobilitatis suae, Scripturas incendit: ne qua Posteris suis, vel de praescripto Veteri quaestio moveretur: existimans, quòd si Indicia de publico sustulisset, nullis alijs Testimonijs clarere posset, quin de Patriarcharum, & Proselytorun Veterum genere emanaret: King Herode, for that he well understood the baseness of his House, therefore he burnt the Scriptures: least that, by mean of such Ancient Records, some doubt might afterward be moved against his posterity. For he thought, if he had once removed such Monuments, it could never be proved by any manner other witness, but that he came by descent from the stock of the patriarchs, and Old Proselytes: Whereas in deed he was amere altene, and a stranger to the House of Israel, and a very tyrannous Usurper of the Crown, as being lineally descended, not from jacob, but from Esau.  
But ye say, You have kept, and preserved the Scriptures, in your Libraries, in veleme, and, I trow, in letters of gold. Even in like sort, and with like truth ye might say, that you have kept the Son, and the Moon: and, had it not been for your keeping, they had been lost. It was God, M. harding, that of his Mercy preserved his Holy Word: even as he preserved Daniel in the Cave of Lions: jonas in the Whale's belly: 
keeping of the Scriptures  The three Children in the mids of the flaming Fire. ye keep the Scriptures as the Dog keepeth the hay: which neither eateth it himself: nor suffereth the poor hungry cattle, that feign would eat it: ye keep them in ward, in dust, & mould: as the jews, before the time of King josias, kept the Book of Deuteronomie closely in the corners, 
2. Regum. 22.  or amongst the treasures of the Temple: so, the noman knew, where to find it. Had it not been for God's special providence, notwithstanding your keeping, they might have perished.  
S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost in Epis. ad Hebraeos, Homil. 8.  Nunc neque an sint Scripturae quidam sciunt: Spiritus tamen ita dispensavit, ut custodiantur: Now a days there are somme, that cannot tell, whether there be any Scriptures, or no. Yet hath the Spirit of God so provided, that they are still preserved.  
Thus the jews made their vaunts, that they were the keepers of the Law, & that the Christians had all of them. S. Augustine saith, judaei dicunt, non Nostra nos Lege uti, 
August. In quaestionibus ex Veteri Testament. quaest 44. Paulus Phagius in Deuter. Ca 17  sed Sua: The jews say, That we have no Law of our own, but only theirs. Likewise even at this day the jews keep, & use the Law of God with all reverence: They never lay any other Book upon the Bible: They wash their hands, before they touch it: They will not sit upon the bench, where the Bible lieth: As often, as they either open it, or shut it, they use to kiss it: when the Pope goeth through Rome to his Palace of Laterane, the jews meet him upon the way, and offer him the Bible, and desire him reverently to embrace it, as though the Pope could have no Bible, but only of them. All these things notwithstanding, the Pope answereth them of course, even as we may answer you: Sanctam Legem, viri Hebraei, & laudamus, & veneramur: obseruantian verò vestram, 
Ceremoniar. Li. 1. Cap 8.  & vanam interpretationem damnamus, & improbamus: Ye men of the jews Profession, we praise, and honour the Holy Law: But your Tradition, and vain Interpretation we utterly condemn, and reprove.  
For Chrysostom saith, 
Chryso. in Matt. Homil. 33.  Nihil nunc apud judaeos remansit, nisi Sola Scriptura Librorum, omni Legis obseruantia pereunte: There remaineth now nothing among the jews, but only the writing contained in Books: for all the observation of the Law is paste from them. 
Chrysosto. in Cenesim, Homil. 8. Chrysostom. in Psalm. 117.  Again he saith, Literae quidem Legis apud illos sunt: Sensus autem est apud nos: The Letters of the Law are with the jews: But the Sense, and Meaning is with us. Likewise he saith unto the jews, Vos complicatis membranas animaltum mortuorum: Nos possidemus Spiritum vivificautem: You turn the leaves of the Scriptures, made of the skins of dead Cattle: but we have the Spirit, that giveth Life. 
August de Fide rerum invisibil. Cap. 6. August. Contra Fausium Mantchae. Lib. 16. Cap. 21.  So saith S. Augustine: judaei in Libris suffragatores nostri sunt: in Cordibus hostes nostri: The jews help us, and aid us with their Books: But they are our enemies in their hearts. Again he saith, Magnum aliquid actum est in usum nostrum de Infidelirate judaeorum: ut ijdem ipsi, qui haec propter se non haberent in Cordibus, ea propter nos haberent in Codicibus: Some great good thing is wrought to our use by the infidelity of the jews: that they, that, to do themselves good, had not these things in their hearts, yet for our sakes, to do us good, should have same things in their Books.  
Speak not therefore so much, M. harding, of your safe keeping of the Scriptures For the Jews have kept, and until this day do keep them as safely, as you. Yae kept the Scriptures, as the Augurs of Rome sommetime kept the Sibylles Books: that is to say, ye kept them to yourselves, in close prison, & in secrecy: that the people should know nothing, but in all cases should be forced to seek to you. Thus ye kept the Light in Darkness: and, as S. Paul saith, 
Roman 1. Chryso in Matt. Homil. 35.  ye kept the Truth of God in Wickedness.  
S. Chrysostom saith, Quando vides Scripturas Prophetarum, & evangelii, & Apostolorum traditas esse in manus Falsorum Sacerdotum, num intelligis, quód Verbum veritatis traditum est Principibus iniquis, & Scribis? When thou seest the Scriptures of the Prophets, of the Gospel, and of the Apostles to be delivered into the hands of False Priests, 
This is my Body.  dost thou not understand, that the Word of Truth is delivered unto the wicked Princes, and unto the Scribes? To be short, I may answer you with the words of Chrysostom, Arcas, & Scrinia rerum pretiosissimarum adhuc seruatis, 
Chrysostom. in 1. Corin. Homi. 37.  The sauro destituti: Ye keep still the Cheastes, and boxes of most precious things: but the jewels, and Treasures be clean gone. Therefore, your safe keeping of the Scriptures notwithstanding, we may say to you, as S. Augustine sommetime said to the Heretic Petilian: judas Christum Carnalem tradidit: Tu Spiritualem: furens evangelium sanctum flammis sacrilegis tradidisti: 
Augusti. Contra Literas Petilia. Lib. 2. Cap. 7.  judas betraiede Christ Carnal: thou haste betrayed Christ Spiritual: for thou in thy rage haste delivered thee Holy Gospel unto wicked fires.  
ye reply, You rather have burnt the Gospel: for that you deny the words of the Gospel. For example ye allege these words of Christ, This is my Body: which words, ye say, of our part are denied. God be thanked, as we have not burnt, so have we not denied any word, or parcel of the Gospel. touching these words by you alleged, we embrace them, and reverence them, and believe them, even as the Words of Christ. But we embrace them, not as you have fondly rack, & wrested them, and foully abused them, by your vain Constructions: but as Christ meant them, and as the Ancient Catholic Fathers in the Old times have expounded them. 
Chrysostom. in johan. Homi. 14.  S. Chrysostom saith, Sacrae Scripturae Verba non vult Deus, ut Simpliciter, sed multa cum prudentia intelligantur: God will not, that we should understand thee words of the Holy Scripture simply and plainly, as they lie, but with great wisdom, 
Chrysosto. in johan. Homil. 39  and discretion. Again he saith, Diligenter invigilandum est: vel potiùs Divina Gratia opus est, ne nudis verbis insistamus. Ita Haeretici in Errorem incidunt: We must take great heed: or rather we have need of the Grace of God, that we rest not upon the bare Words of the Scriptures. For by that means Heretics fall into error. 
August. ad Consentium. li. 1. ca 10. Hierony. ad Galat. Cap. 1.  S Augustine saith, Omne Figuratè, aut factum, aut dictum, hoc enuntiat, quod Significat: Every thing that is either done, or spoken in a Figure, showeth forth the same thing, that it Signifieth. S. Jerome saith: Ne puremus in Verbis Scripturarum esse evangelium, sed in Sensu: Let us not think that the Gospel standeth in the Words of the Scripture, but in the Meaning.  
Again he saith, 
Hieron. in Matt. Cap. 16.  Cùm Seniores putentur in Ecclesijs, & Principes Sacerdotum, Simplicem sequentes Literam, occidunt Filium Dei: Whereas they be taken for the Elders of the Church, and the Chief of the Priests, following the Plain Letter, (as it is written, and not regarding the meaning) they kill the Son of God.  
Let us see therefore, in what sense the Holy Catholic Fathers have in Old times expounded these Words of Christ.  
First, Tertullian saith thus, Christus acceptum Panem, & distributum Discipulis, Corpus suum illum fecit, 
Tertullian. Contra Marcionem. Lib. 4. Augusti. Contra Adiman. Cap. 12.  Hoc est Corpus meum, hoc est, Figura Corporis mei: Christ taking the Bread, and dividing it to his Disciples, made it his Body, saying: This is my Body, that is to say, This is a Figure of my Body. S. Augustine saith, Non dubitavit Dominus dicere, Hoc est Corpus meum, cùm daret Signum Corporis sui: Our Lord doubted not to say, This is my Body, when he gave a Token of his Body. I leave infinite other Authorities to like purpose. By these few we may easily perceive, in what sense the Holy Fathers in Old time understood these Words of Christ, This is my Body. Yet were they never therefore condemned of. Heresy, nor thought to deny any parcel of the Scriptures. S. Augustine saith, 
August. in quaessionib. in levit. quaest. 57  Solet res, quae Significat, eius rei nomine, quam Significat. nuncupari: Hinc est, quod dictum est, Petra erat Christus. Non enim dicit, Petra Significat Christum: Sed, tanquam hoc esset, quoód utique per Substantiam non erat, sed per Significationem: The thing that Signifieth, is Commonly called by the name of that thing, that it Signifieth. Therefore is it, that S. Paul saith, The Rock was Christ. For he saith not, The Rock signified Christ (but, 
This is my Body.  The Rock is Christ) As if the Rock had been Christ in deed: whereas, touching the Substance, it was not so: but so it was by Signification.  
In this sort is the Bread Christ's Body: not verily, and in deed: but, as S. Augustine saith, after a certain phrase, or manner of speech. And so is it noted even in your own Gloze, 
De Cons. Dist. 2. Hoc est. In Gloss.  Vocatur Corpus Christi, id est, Significat Corpus Christi: The Bread is called the Body of Christ: that is to say, The Bread Signifieth the Body of Christ. Thus we deny not Christ's Words, M. harding: But we deny the fond, and fantastical senses, that you have imagined of Christ's Words. Therefore where you allege these words, as spoken by S. Augustine, He is a burner of the Scriptures, that consenteth not unto the Scriptures, ye might have remembered, 
Augu. Epist 162.  that the same S. Augustine likewise saith, Ille credatur Testamentum tradidisse flammis, qui contra Voluntatem litigat Testatoris: He is to be thought, to have delivered the Testament to the fire, that quarreleth (as you do) against the will, and meaning of him, that made the Testament. S. Gregory saith, Facilè in verbis agnoscimus aliud esse, quod intimant, aliud, quod sonant: Tanto ' autem quisque notitiae illius Extraneus redditur. 
Gregorius in job. Lib. 4. Ca 1.  quanto ' in Sola eius Superficie ligatur: In words we do well perceive, that there is one thing, that they Signify, and an other thing, that they sound. And the more a man bindeth himself to the owtwarde sight, and show of the Letter, the further of is he from the understanding of the same.  
The objection of difference, that ye make between S. james, and S. Paul, (S. Augustine saith) is made by them that understand, neither S. james, 
Augu. in Lib. 83. quaestionum q. 76. part. 1. Ca 10. Divi. 1.  nor S. Paul, The whole force thereof is answered before. It is easy to see, that S. Paul speaketh of one Kind of works, and S. james of an other: & again, S. Paul of one kind of justification, and S. james of an other. Therefore this difference is soon avoided. Certainly we deny neither S. Paul, nor S. james: nor think, the one of them to be contrary to the other.  
touching the Words of Christ, that ye have alleged out of S. john, it appeareth, ye were in some baste, 
johan. 6.  and therefore were feign to take, that came first to hand. For I will not say, M. harding, what doctor, or Father, but, what drift, or discretion of Common sense ever taught you to reason thus? Christ saith, He that Eateth of this Bread shall live for ever: Ergo, The people must receive the Communion under One kind. 
Remnitius in Examine Conci. Triden. Pag. 598.  friar Eckius your Fellow reasoneth with like discretion to like purpose:  
give us, saith he, our daily Bread:  
Ergo, We may restrain the people from the Cup.  
Perhaps ye will say, The name of Bread belongeth to eating only, and not to Drinking. This may be granted well without prejudice. notwithstanding, S. Cyprian doubted not to say, 
Cyprian. De Coena Domini. In eodem Serm.  Manducaverunt, & Biberunt de eodem Pane: They did both Eat, and Drink of one Bread. And again he saith, Manducamus & Bibimus eius Sanguinem: We Eat and Drink his Blood.  
How be it, in deed these words of Christ in the sixth of S. john, belong only to the Spiritual eating, and drinking of Christ's Body, and Blood, (that is wrought, not by the Mouth, but only by Faith) and nothing to the outward Ministration of the Sacrament. 
Nicolaus Lyra, in Psalm. 110.  Your own doctor Nicolas Lyra saith, Haec verba nihil directè pertinent ad Sacramentalem, vel Corporalem Manducationem. Nam hoc verbum dictum fuit, antequam Sacramentum Eucharistiae esset institutum. Ex illa igitur Litera de Sacramentali Communione non potest fieri Argumentum efficax: These Words of Christ in the sixth Chapter of S. john, directly pertain nothing to the Sacramental, or Corporal eating. For these words were spoken long before the Sacrament was ordained. Therefore of this place there can be made no good sufficient Argument, touching the Sacramental Communion. You say, your proof, taken of these words is sufficient, 
Communion under one kind.  & therewith ye deceive the Ignorant. Lyra saith, It is not sufficient. Now let your indifferent Reader judge, whether of you two is deceived.  
And, whereas ye would seem to say, Christ gave no Commandment of Both kinds, to be received of the people, Even so, and with like truth ye might also say, Christ gave no Commandment, no not of one kind at all to be received of the people. For there was no man present, but only the Apostles, at the Institution, as well of the one kind, as of the other. Therefore, that the people may claim any one part of the Sacrament, they have it not of any right, but only of your mere, and free liberality. For otherwise of duty, by your judgement, they should have nothing.  
notwithstanding Christ saith, Bibite ex hoc omnes: Drink ye (not only the Apostles, but) Drink ye all of this, Which words Paschasius expoundeth thus: 
Paschasius.  Bibite ex hoc omnes, Hoc est, tam Ministri, quàm reliqui Credentes: Drink ye all of this: that is to say, as well the Ministers, as the rest of the Faithful. 
Glossa. Citaturà Cassandro, de utraque Specie.  An other saith thus, Bibite ex hoc Omnes: Omnes, scilicet, sine personarum acceptione: Drink ye all of this: Al, that is to say, without difference, or choice of persons.  
But hereof we have spoken more at large in other places.    

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 2. &. 3.  
Very rightly, and aptly doth Chrysostom write against these men. Heretics, saith he, shut up the gates against the Truth: for they know full well, if the gate were open, the Church should be none of theirs.  
Theophylacte also: God's Word, saith he, is the Candle, whereby the Thief is espied.   

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division, 4.  
And Tertullian saith, The Holy Scripture manifestly findeth out the fraud, and theft of Heretics. For why do they hide, why do they keep under the Gospel, which Christ would have preached aloud from the house top? Why whealme they that light under a bushel, which ought to stand on the candlestick?  

M. harding.  
The Scripture saith, There shallbe men standing in their own conceit, unchaste, loving pleasure more then God. 
2. Tim. 3.  Who are unchaste? they that exhort all men to 
* This Chastity in the more part is open filthiness. They forbid Marriage, and suffer Concubines, for the better mean to serve God. Math. 23.  Chastity, and themselves abstain from wedlock for the better mean to serve God: or ye, that bid men, which have vowed chastity, to break their vows?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I leave your Chastity to the judgement of the World. Yet you may remember, there were some in old times, whom Christ likened to Painted graves: outwardly in appearance fair, & glorious: but inwardly full of stinking bones. It appeareth by the whole course, and order of your lives, that Single Life, 
Hierony. in Daniel. Cap. 11.  and Chastity are sundry things. S. Jerome saith thus, Super Concupiscentiam foeminarum non intelliget: De Antichristo facilior interpretatio est: quoód ideó simulet Castitatem, ut plurimos decipiat: He shall have no skill, touching the desiere of weemen: 
Countrefeite Chastity.  The better exposition hereof, is to apply these words to antichrist: For that he shall Countrefeite Chastity, to the end to deceive many.  
S. Augustine saith of the Heretics called thee Manichees: 
Augustin. De Moribus Ecclesiae Cathol. li. 1. cap. 1. Ambro. De Noah & Arca, ca 14.  Vitae Castae, & memorabilis continentiae imaginem praeferunt: They bear a countenance of continent life, and notable Chastity. S. Ambrose saith, Multi sunt Haereticorum, qui praetendere volunt Corporis continentiam? There be many Heretics, that will countrefeite, and pretend Chastity of body (that by the witness thereof they may win Credit to their Doctrine.) Therefore, M. harding, when you thus vaunt yourselves of this Colour of Chastity, ye make boast of that thing, that other Heretics, and antichrist himself shall have, as well as you.  
S. Paul, where he foretelleth us of the Disciples of antichrist, amongst other marks, whereby they may be known, saith thus: Prohibentes nubere: 
1. Tim. 4. Hierony. in Hieremi. cap. 7. lib. 2.  whereby he meant, that antichrist should give out a great shine of Chaste life, and forbid Marriage. Of such S. Jerome saith, jactant pudicitiam suam impudenti fancy: They make brags of their Chastity with whorish Countenance.    

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 5. & 6.  
Why trust they more to the blindness of the unskilful multitude, and to ignorance, then to the goodness of their cause?  
Think they their sleights are not already perceived, and that they can walk now unspied, as though they had Gyges' ring to go invisible by, upon their finger? No, no.   

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 7.  
All men see now well, and well again, what good stuff is in that chest of the Bishop of Rome's bosom. This thing alone of itself may be an argument sufficient, that they work not uprightly, and truly.  

M. harding.  
You are much troubled with the chest of the Pope's bosom, wherein be is thought to have all laws. At this you scoff four or five times in your Apology, meddling with a matter, that you understand not. For it is a lawyers phrase. Who presupposeth the Prince of every common weal to know the law of the same, no less then if it were written in his breast. And therefore when he maketh a new law, he repealeth the former law, whereunto the latter is contrary.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
For as much as this matter of the Pope's breast is so deep, and full of darkness, specially being as you say, a lawyers phrase, that no man may safely enter into it, but only you, that never were student in any Law, let us therefore see, what your own canonists, and lawyers themselves have meant hereby.  
first of all, 
Baldus.  Baldus of Perusium saith, Papa est Doctor utriusque juris, Authoritate, non Scientia: The Pope is Doctor of both Laws (as well Civil, as Canon) by Authority, but not by knowledge. Here we find, how so ever the Pope be stored of Learning, yet at the least he is a doctor by Authority.  
Further your Gloze saith, 
9 quae. 3. Neque. ab Augusto. Dis. 19 Si Romanorum. In Gloss.  Etsi totus mundus sententiaret in aliquo negotio contra Papam, tamen videtur, quoed standum fit sententiae Papae. jura enim omnia in Scrinio pectoris sui habere videtur. Quod ergo Papa approbat, vel reprobat, & nos approbate, vel reprobare debemus. Quisquis ergo non obedit Statutis Romanae Ecclesiae, Haereticus est censendus. 
The Cheaste of the Pope's bosom.  Et Sacrilegij instar esset, disputare de facto Papae: Although all the world would judge in any matter against the Pope, yet it seemeth, we ought to stand to the judgement of the Pope. For he seemeth to have all Laws in the Cheaste of his bosom: 
Dist. 40. Si Papa, 〈◊〉 glossa.  Therefore, what so ever the Pope either alloweth, or disalloweth, we are bound likewise to allow, or disallow the same. And who so ever is not obedient to the Laws of the Church of Rome, must be deemed an Heretic. And it were as great sin as Churcherobbinge, to reason of any of the Pope's doings.  
Further, 
Extra De transta. Episcopi. Quamto In Glossa. Felin. De Rescriptis. Ad Audientiam. 2. ver.  your lawyers say thus, Papa dicitur habere Coeleste arbitrium: unde in his, quae vult, est ei pro Ratione Voluntas. Nec est, qui dicat illi, Domine, cur ita facis? Quia sicut ex Sola Voluntate potest per Papam Lex creari, ita per Solam Voluntatem potest cum ea dispensari: The Pope is said to have a heavenly judgement: Therefore in such things, as he willeth, his Will standeth in steed of Reason. Neither may any man say unto him, O sir, Why do you thus? Like as a Law may be made by the Only Will of the Pope: so may the same Law be dispensed withal only by the will of the Pope.  
This, M. harding, is the exposition of your lawyers phrase. These are the treasures, that we are taught to seek in the Closet of the Pope's breast. Thus may we set apart Scriptures, Doctoures, Councils, and what so ever is beside: The Pope's breast may serve for al.    

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 8.  
Worthily ought that matter seem suspicious, which fleeth trial, and is afraid of the light. For he that doth evil, as Christ saith, seeketh darkness, and hateth the light. A conscience, that knoweth itself clear, cometh willingly into open show, that the works which proceed of God may be seen. Neither be they so very blind, but they see this well enough, that their Kingdom straightway is at a point, if the Scriptures once have the upper hand: and that, like as men say, the Idols of devils in times passed, of whom men in doubtful matters were then wont to receive answers, were suddenly stricken dumb at the sight of Christ, when he was borne, and came into the world: even so they see, that now all their subtle practices will soon fall down headlong, even upon the sight of the Gospel. For antichrist is not overthrown, but with the brightness of Christ's coming.   

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 1.  
As for us, we run not for secure to the Fire, as these men's guise is, but we run to the Scriptures: neither do we reason with the Sword, but with the Word of God: and therewith, as saith Tertullian, do we feed our Faith: by it do we stir up our hope, and strengthen our Confidence.  

M. harding.  
Ye fly not to the Fire, as we do, say ye, but unto the Scriptures. Neither do ye reason with us with the sword, but with the Word of God. Ah good word of God, thou servest to many purposes. And is it in deed the word of God Sirs, that keepeth so many reverend Fathers in prison these many years? 
Heretics to death.  It is the word of God, that hath deprived so many men, some of their livings, 
All this now is extreme Cruelty. Not long sithence it had been taken for great Mercy.  some of their countries, whose life ye can not blame? Is it the word of God, that by cruelty of imprisonment of late years gave most certain occasion of death to those holy, learned, and worshipful men, who for their singular virtue being well known, need not here to be named? Is it the word of God, that made so much ado in your late parliament for establishing of your bloody law, whereby ye would have power to put men to death 
* Untruth. For it is either Idolatry, or open folly: and no part of the Faith of Christendom.  for the Faith of Christendom? The Turks and Saracenes have always suffered them to live in their dominions, but our Gospelers by their word of God are taught to kill them. Blessed be God, who hath given to our noble and most clement Queen Elizabeth a better spirit to understand his word in this point. 
‡ What Spirit then had you M. Harding and your fellows that burned so many?  than these Gospelers have yet attained unto.  
If any of you do say, that the new Superintendentes do not keep the old Bishops and leanred Clergy in prison, but the Law of the Realm: I answer, first, that the Law is a crab of your own stock: next that neither the Bishops before time burned Heretics, but the Law of the Realm, the law of the Prince, the law of all Christendom. Neither was the same made by Papists of late years, as ye would your deceived disciples to believe, but of old time thought 
* This matter thus uttered in generality, is a great Untruth.  necessary by Princes to be enacted, for the better maintenance of quiet in their dominions.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It is no new practice, ye say, to kill Heretics. I grant you. Neither is it a new practice, to condemn godly men by the name of Heretics. your Fathers sommetime cried out against Christ the Son of God, We have a Law: 
johan. 19  and by the Law he ought to die. And Christ himself said sommetime to Jerusalem the City of blood, 
Luke. 13.  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the Prophets, and stoanest them to death, that he sent unto thee. But S. Augustine saith, Nullis bonis in Catholica hoc placet, 
Augustin. Contra Crescon. Gram. li. 3. ca 50  si usque ad Mortem in quenquam, licet Haereticum, saeviatur: It seemeth good unto no good man in the Catholic Church, that cruelty unto death be showed unto any man, no though he be an Heretic.  
Notwithstanding, it agreeth well with your Religion, M. harding, though your mouths now be mousled, yet to ramp, and gape still after blood. Fulfil ye the measure of your Fathers. Let it not grieve you, to hear, what Solomon saith, 
Math. 23. Proverb. 12.  Viscera impiorum crudelia: The very bowels of the wicked are full of cruelty. When your Fables, and follies be espied, than ye flee to Sword, and Fire. Which being once wrested from you, your whole Religion must needs come to ground. S. Jerome saith of other your peers, Pugnant Epicherematis ex carnificum officinis: They fight with Arguments taken from the Bouchers shops.  
Ye have wreakte your anger long enough upon innocent blood. Begin once to know the hand of God. It is hard for you, to kike still against the prick. We may truly say unto you with S. Cyprian, Sacerdos Dei evangelium tenens, & Christi Praecepta custodiens, 
Cyprian ad Cornel.  Occidi potest, Vinci non potest. The Priest of God, holding the Gospel, and keeping the Commoundementes of Christ, may well be killed: But conquered he cannot be. 
Tertull. ad Scapulam. Tertul. in Apologetico. 3. Esdr. 3. prover. 21. Hacron. in isaiah. lib. 5. cap. 14. Augustin. Confessi. li. 12. ca 14.  We may say with Tertullian, Crudelitas vestra, Gloria nostra est: Plures efficimur, quoties metimur à vobis: Your Cruelty is our Glory. When ye come to reckon us ye find us more, and more. Truth above all things will prevail. There is no Counsel against the Lord.  
As for our parts, we were never yet guilty to one drop of your blood. We seek no aid at Fire, or Sword. We will rather say with S. Jerome, Vtivam filios Haereucorum, & omnium qui decepti sunt, interficiamus Sagittis Spiritualibus, id est, Testimonijs Scripturarum. Would God we may rather kill the Children of Heretics, and of all them, that be deceived, with Spiritual Arrows, that is to say, with the Testimonies of the Scriptures: And with S. Augustine, O fi occidas eos de gladio bis acuto, 
If an Angel from Heaven, etc.  & non sint Hostes tui: Sic enim amo eos occidi sibi, ut vitrani tibi: Would God thou wouldst kill them, O Lord, with the two edged sword, (that is, with thy Holy Word) That they may no longer be thine Enemies. For so I wish them to be killed unto themselves, that they may live unto thee.  
And again, Vindicet nos Deus de vobis, ut ipsum errorem vestrum in vobis occidat, & nobiscum de Veritate gaudeatis: 
Augustin. Epist. 166.  God so revenge out cause against you, that he may kill your error in you, that ye may rejoice together with us of the Truth.    

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 2.  
For we know, that the Gospel of jesus Christ is the power of God unto Salvation, and that therein consisteth Eternal Life. And, as Paul warneth us, we do not hear, no not an Angel of God, though he came from Heaven, if he go about to pull us from any part of this Doctrine.  

M. harding.  
Boast no more of the Gospel. We (I mean the catholic Church) had it, we kept it, and understood it, before ye were borne, and before your heresy was heard of.  
But a Devil coming from hell (for who is author of division but Satan?) hath carried you away into an other Gospel: whereas in deed there is but one true Gospel. And here let any indifferent man consider, how uprightly you allege S. Paul. You writ, that Paul warneth you not to give ear to an Angel coming from heaven, 
Galat. 1.  if he go about to draw you from any part of this Doctrine. Of which this Doctrine mean you? Of this, which you have declared in this Apology? 
* And did S. Paul ever read your late Chapter of Trent.  Did S. Paul ever read your A pologie? How then pronounced he of it that sentence? We mean (say you) by this Doctrine, the Doctrine of the Gospel. If you mean so, we say the same. But we tell you, that S. Paul spoke not of every Gospel generally, but of a certain Gospel qualified. For he saith, Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praerer id quod accepistis, anathema sit: If any man preach a Gospel unto you besides that ye have received, be he accursed. Hear you the Gospel S. Paul speaketh of? It is not every Gospel. It is a Gospel preached and received. If ye preach that Gospel, which ye received, we join hands with you. But if ye preach a Gospel which ye have received of no Apostle, nor Apostoiique preacher, and which was not heard of in the earth, when Luther ran out of his Cloister, and forsook his Religion: then be ye assured, that ye are the men, who are holden for accursed of S. Paul.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, ye would feign scape away with a Childish Cavil. Paul, ye say, speaketh of a Gospel qualified: whereby ye mean a Gospel delivered, and received: As if ye would say, The Gospel of Christ, unless it be delivered by you, is no Gospel. But S. Paul meant not the Doctrine delivered from hand to hand, or from Pope to Pope: But the Doctrine delivered, and received in the Scriptures. And in this sense he saith of himself: Quod accept à Domino, Hoc & tradidi vobis. The thing, that I have received of the Lord, the same have I delivered unto you. In like sort he calleth himself an Apostle, not of men, 
1. Cor. 11. Galat. 1.  nor by men, but by jesus Christ. How be it, what need many words? The case is clear. S. Augustine saith plainly, Paulus ait, Si Angelus de Coelo vobis annuntiaverit, 
August. Contra literas Petilia. lib. 3. cap. 6.  praeterquam quod in Scriptures legalibus, & Euangelicis accepistis, Anathema sit: If an Angel from Heaven preach unto you any other thing, than ye have received (not by Tradition, or by delivery from your Elders, but) in the Scriptures of the Law, and of the Gospel, accursed be he. These words be plain, M. harding, and quite disgrace all your Gloss.  
Hereto Chrysostom addeth further, Non dixit Paulus, Si contraria annuntiaverint, 
Chrysost. In Epi. ad Galat. cap. 1.  aut totum evangelium subverterint, 
councils.  verùm, Si vel paulùm Euangelizaverint, praeter evangelium, quod accepistis, etiamsi quiduis labefactaverint, Anathema sint. S. Paul saith not, If they teach the contrary, or, if they overthrow the whole Gospel: But he saith, if they preach any little small thing, besides the Gospel, that ye have received, or, if they lose, or shake down any thing, whatsoever it be, accursed be they. These words, M. harding, touch you very near. Ye have altered the whole form of the Church of God. Therefore repent yourselves, lest ye remain still within the danger of the Curse.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. De bono viduitatis. ca 1. Roma. 12.  Sancta Scriptura nostae Doctrinae Regulam figit, Ne audeamus plus sapere, quàm oporteat sapere: The Holy Scripture hath laid a rule unto our Doctrine, that we dare not to understand more, then is meet for us to understand.    

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 3.  
For, where these men bid the Holy Scriptures away, as doumbe, and fruitless, & procure us to come to God himself rather, who speaketh in the Church, & in their Councils, that is to say, to believe their fancies, and opinions: this way of finding out the Truth is very uncertain, and exceeding dangerous, and in manner a fantastical & mad way, & by no means allowed of the Holy Fathers.  

M. harding.  
Where they say, we pass but little on the Scriptures, as dumb and unprofitable, therein they 
‡ Untruth. For these be your own fellows words. Read the Answer.  slander us, as in other things. We do not so. But we say, that as every act of Parliament must be executed by a lawful judge, so the holy Scriptures have their execution by lawful judges, who are the bishops and fathers, and well in other places, as specially when they be lawfully assembled in general councils. Now say these men, that way is very uncertain, dangerous, in manner mad, and not allowed of the fathers. Who ever heard men thought to have their right wits, talk after so lose a sort? Did the fathers 
* Gregorius Nazianzenꝰ saith, He never saw good come of any Council.  disprove the order of coming together in general councils? Or thought they the same to be a way for men to be the sooner deceived? If so many may be deceived with most diligent study and mature judgement conferring together, how much sooner may one or two alone lead by private fancy and self will, be carried away into error? At the Nicene council came together. 318 bishops: At the first of Constantinople. 150. at the Ephesme council. 200. At that of Chalcedon 630 Al these four councils sundry ancient fathers, namely S. Gregory, esteemed as the four Gospels. Yea but saith he, I have the word of God. But what if 300. far holier, and better learned men say, he hath it not? Let the reader be judge, saith he. A meet judge, in such a cause. The Scholars may read, but judge of their masters they may not by Christ's doctrine, 
Math. 10.  who said, Non est discipulus supra magistrum, the scholar is not above his master. Why not, for all that, say you, if the Holy Ghost inspire him? Sir, is it not to be thought, God doth assist his Church represented in such solemn assemblies of three hundred or more father's governors of Christian people, rather than one man?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Whether ye call the Scriptures of God a Dumb thing, 
Cap. 19 Divi. 1. Ludovicus in Con. Triden. Episcop. Pictavien. in Con. Triden. Albert. Pigghi. controver 3. Eckius.  or no, I report me to that, is said before. One of you calleth it Mortuum Atramentum, Dead Ink: An other saith, Scriptura est res inanimis, & muta: The Scripture is a dead and a dumb thing: An other calleth the Scriptures, Nigrum evangelium, The black Gospel. Now if the Scriptures be Dead, and dumb, and can not speak, then must it needs follow, they are unprofitable. Neither do we despise the Authority of Councils. Good Councils be grave, and reverend. But thus we say, Councils are often against Councils: And, if we make reckoning of number, the Arian Heretics have had more Councils, than the Christians. S. Jerome saith, 
The people cannot judge.  Spiritus Sancti Doctrina est, quae Canonicis literis prodita est: Contra quam si quid statuant Concilia, nefas duco: That is the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost, that is set abroad in the Canonical Scriptures: 
Hierom. in epist. ad Galath. Chrysost. In. 2 ad Timoth. Hom. 2.  Against which Doctrine if Councils determine any thing, I think it wicked.  
S. Chrysostom saith further in more earnest sort: Plus aliquid dicam: Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet, si quid dixerit proprium, si quid humanum: I will say more: We ought not to believe, no not Paul himself, if he speak any thing of his own, or if he speak only as a man.  
And to increase the uncertainty hereof, the whole weight, and judgement of Councils hangeth now evermore upon the Pope: as it may appear by these words of the Conclusion of the late Chapter at Trident: Saluasemper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate: 
Concil. Triden. Session. 6. Platyna in Stephano.  The Authority of the apostolic See in all things evermore reserved. But Platyna saith, as it is alleged before, Acta priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices semper aut infringunt, aut omnino ' tollunt: The Popes, that follow, do evermore either break, or wholly abrogate the Decrees of the Popes, that were before.  
Whether the Scripture be well alleged, or otherwise, thereof, ye say, the people may not judge. For Christ saith, The Scholar is not above his Master. Certainly, M. harding, the simplest of all the people, notwithstanding, by your restraint, he may not judge of the Scriptures, yet he may easily judge of you, either that ye understand not, or that ye unadvisedly abuse the Scriptures. Whether it be the Word of God, or no, the people, ye say, may not Judge: And that ye prove even by the Scriptures, God knoweth, full handsomely, and full discreetly applied: For the Scholar (ye say) is not above his Master. Thus we may learn by the Logic of Louvain, that Populus is Latin for a Scholar: & that Scripture is Latin for a Master. And thus by your vain premises without sense ye proceed vainly, and conclude nothing.  
O, M. harding, have some regard to that ye writ. The simplest may soon espy your doings. Ye can no longer thus mock the world with shows of words. Christ spoke not these words of the understanding of the Scriptures: but of persecution for the Scriptures. For thus the words lie together: When they shall persecute you in one City, flee into an other, etc. The Scholar is not above his Master: Nor the Servant above his Lord. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, 
Matthae. 10.  how much more will they so call his household servants?  
Alas, where learned you to frame such Arguments, The Apostles, being the Scholars, can no more escape persecution, then could Christ, that was the Master: Ergo, The people cannot understand, what they read in the Scriptures? Here is neither Antecedente, nor consequent, nor Sequel in Reason. For the honour of the University, have better regard unto your Logic.  
Ye bewray the weakness of your cause, when ye so slenderly abuse the Scriptures.    

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 4.  
Chrysostom saith, There be many oftentimes, which boast themselves of the Holy Ghost: but truly, who so speak of their own head, do falsely boast that they have the spirit of God. For like as, saith he, Christ denied, he spoke of himself, when he spoke out of the Law, and Prophets, even so now, if any tiaverint, 
councils.  aut totum evangelium subverterint, verùm, Si vel paulùm Euangelizaverint, praeter evangelium, quod accepistis, etiamsi quiduis labefactaverint, Anathema sint. S. Paul saith not, If they teach the contrary, or, if they overthrow the whole Gospel: But he saith, if they preach any little small thing, besides the Gospel, that ye have received, or, if they lose, or shake down any thing, whatsoever it be, accursed be they. These words, M. harding, touch you very near. Ye have altered the whole form of the Church of God. Therefore repent yourselves, lest ye remain still within the aunger of the Curse.  
S. 
August. De bono viduit atis. ca 1. Roma. 12.  Augustine saith, Sancta Scriptura nostae Doctrinae Regulam figit, Ne audeamus plus sapere, quàm opor●eat sapere: The Holy Scripture hath laid a rule unto our Doctrine, that we dare not to understand more, then is meet for us to understand.   

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 3.  
For, where these men bid the Holy Scriptures away, as doumbeand fruitless, & procure us to come to God himself rather, who speaketh in the Church, & in their Councils, that is to say, to believe their fancies, and opinions: this way of finding out the Truth is very uncertain, and exceeding dangerous, and in manner a fantastical & mad way, & by no means allowed of the Holy Fathers.  

M. harding.  
Where they say, we pass but little on the Scriptures, as dumb and unprofitable, therein they 
‡ Untruth. For these be your own fellows words. Read the Answer.  slander us, as in other things. We do not so. But we say, that as every act of Parliament must be executed by a lawful judge, so the holy Scriptures have their execution by lawful judges, who are the bishops and fathers, as well in other places, as specially when they be lawfully assembled in general councils. Now say these men, that way is very uncertain, dangerous, in manner mad, and not allowed of the fathers. Who ever heard men thought to have their right wits, talk after so lose a sort? Did the fathers 
* Gregorius Nazianzenꝰ saith, He never saw good come of any Council.  disprove the order of coming together in general councils? Or thought they the same to be a way for men to be the sooner deceived? If so many may be deceived with most diligent study and mature judgement conferring together, how much sooner may one or two alone read by private fancy and self will, be carried away into error? At the Nicene council came together. 318 bishops: At the first of Constantinople. 150. at the Ephesine council. 200. At that of Chalcedon 630 Al these four councils sundry ancient fathers, namely S. Gregory, esteemed as the four Gospels. Yea but saith he, I have the word of God. But what if 300. far holier, and better learned men say, he hath it not? Let the reader be judge. saith be. A meet judge, in such a cause. The Scholars may read, but judge of their masters they may not by Christ's doctrine, 
Math. 10.  who said, Non est discipulus supra magistrum, the scholar is not above his master. Why not, for all that, say you, if the Holy Ghost inspire him? Sir, is it not to be thought, God doth assist his Church represented in such solemn assemblies of three hundred or more father's governors of Christian people, rather than one man?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Whether ye call the Scriptures of God a Dumb thing, 
Cap. 19 Divi. 1. Ludovicus in Con. Triden. Episcop. Pictavien. in Con. Triden. Albert. Pigghi. controver 3. Eckius.  or no, I report me to that, is said before. One of you calleth it Mortuum Atramentum, Dead Ink: An other saith, Scriptura est res inanimis, & muta: The Scripture is a dead and a dumb thing: An other calleth the Scriptures, Nigrum evangelium, The black Gospel. Now if the Scriptures be Dead, and dumb, and can not speak, then must it needs follow, they are unprofitable. Neither do we despise the Authority of Councils. Good Councils be grave, and reverend. But thus we say, Councils are often against Councils: And, if we make reckoning of number, the Arian Heretics have had more Councils, than the Christians. S. Jerome saith, 
The people cannot judge.  Spiritus Sancti Doctrina est, quae Canonicis literis prodita est: Contra quam si quid statuant Concilia, nefas duco: That is the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost, that is set abroad in the Canonical Scriptures: 
Hierom. in epist. ad Galath.  Against which Doctrine if Councils determine any thing, I think it wicked.  
S. 
Chrysost. In. 2. ad Timoth. Hom. 2.  Chrysostom saith further in more earnest sort: Plus aliquid dicam: Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet, si quid dixerit proprium, si quid humanum: I will say more: We ought not to believe, no not Paul himself, if he speak any thing of his own, or if he speak only as a man.  
And to increase the uncertainty hereof, the whole weight, and judgement of Councils hangeth now evermore upon the Pope: as it may appear by these words of the Conclusion of the late Chapter at Trident: 
Concil. Triden. Session. 6. Platyna in Stephano.  salva semper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate: The Authority of the apostolic See in all things evermore reserved. But Platyna saith, as it is alleged before, Acta priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices semper aut infringunt, aut omninò tollunt: The Popes, that follow, do evermore either break, or wholly abrogate the Decrees of the Popes, that were before.  
Whether the Scripture be well alleged, or otherwise, thereof, ye say, the people may not judge. For Christ saith, The Scholar is not above his Master. Certainly, M. harding, the simplest of all the people, notwithstanding, by your restraint, he may not judge of the Scriptures, yet he may easily judge of you, either that ye understand not, or that ye unaduifedly abuse the Scriptures. Whether it be the Word of God, or no, the people, ye say, may not judge: And that ye prove even by the Scriptures, God knoweth, full handsomely, and full discreetly applied: For the Scholar (ye say) is not above his Master. Thus we may learn by the Logic of Louvain, that Populus is Latin for a Scholar: & that Scripture is Latin for a Master. And thus by your vain premises without sense ye proceed vainly, and conclude nothing.  
O, M. harding, have some regard to that ye writ. The simplest may soon espy your doings. Ye can no longer thus mock the world with shows of words. Christ spoke not these words of the understanding of the Scriptures: but of persecution for the Scriptures. For thus the words lie together: When they shall persecute you in one City, flee into an other, etc. The Scholar is not above his Master: Nor the Servant above his Lord. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they so call his household seruountes? 
Matthae. 10.   
Alas, where learned you to frame such Arguments, The Apostles, being the Scholars, can no more escape persecution, then could Christ, that was the Master: Ergo, The people cannot understand, what they read in the Scriptures? Here is neither Antecedente, nor consequent, nor Sequel in Reason. For the honour of the University, have better regard unto your Logic.  
Ye bewray the weakness of your cause, when ye so slenderly abuse the Scriptures.    

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 4.  
Chrysostom saith, There be many oftentimes, which boast themselves of the Holy Ghost: but truly, who so speak of their own head, do falsely boast that they have the spirit of God. For like as, saith he, Christ denied, he spoke of himself, when he spoke out of the Law, and Prophets, even so now, if any thing be pressed upon us in the name of the Holy Ghost, save the Gospel, we ought not to believe it. For as Christ is the fulfilling of the Law and Prophets, so is the Holy Ghost the fulfilling of the Gospel. Thus far goeth Chrysostom.  

M. harding.  
They allege out of Chrysostom, that who so ever speak of their own, do untruly attribute to themselves the Spirit of God. But they remember not, how they, who are gathered together in the name of Christ, 
Math. 18.  do not speak of their own, because Christ, who is the truth, hath promised to be in the midst of them. Now if they tell us, that the Fathers at Trent were not gathered together in the name of Christ, how much more truly may we reply to them, that the temporal men assembled together at Auspurg, at Marpurg, at Worms, at Smalcald, at Baden, at Westminster, or any where else, came not together in the name of Christ? I require but a man of common sense to sit judge in this cause. They can not possibly bring any thing out of the Scriptures, or ancient Fathers, for maintenance of this their great case.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Ye build over boldly, M. harding, on Christ's promises. God is true, what so ever he promise: But oftentimes men are false. Christ hath promised to be present, 
Psal. 2. Actor 4. Michaeas. 3.  where so ever two, or three be gathered together in his name: But it appeareth by the words of the Prophet David, that Councils oftentimes meet together against God, and against his Christ. The Prophet Michaeas' saith, Sic dicit Dominus de Prophetis, qui errare faciunt populum meum: Abominantur judicium, & omne rectum pervertunt: Super Dominum requiescebant, dicentes: Nunquid non est Dominus in medio nostri? Thus saith our Lord of the Prophets, that deceive my people: They abborre judgement: they overthrow all that is right. And yet they reaste them senlues upon our Lord, saying, Is not our Lord in the midst amongst us?  
This is your defence, M. harding. Whether the Word of God be with you, or against you, yet ye say, ye have still the Spirit of God: and our Lord himself is in the midst amongst you. 
Chrysostom. De Sancto & Adorando Spiritu. August. in johan. tractae 46.  But this boldness, by Chrysostom's judgement, is presumptuous, and dangerous. And therefore his counsel is, that if any thing be pressed upon us by the name of the Holy Ghost, saving only the Gospel of Christ, we should not believe it. In like sense S. Augustine saith, Sua illi si docere veliut, nolite audire: nolite facere: If they bring any Decree or Fantasy of their own, hear it not: Do it not.  
Thus the Old Frenetique, and Fanatical Heretics, when they found themselves convinced by the evident testimonies of God's Word, they appealed to the Spirit of God: which, they said, even as you say, evermore assisted them, 
August. Contra ●austum Manichae li. 3●. ca 18.  and could not fail them. Hereof S. Augustine writeth thus: Videris ergo, id vos agere, ut omnis de medio Scripturarum authoritas auferatur: & suus cuique animus author sit, quid in quaque Scriptura probet, quid improbet: id est, ut non Authorirati Scripturarum subijciatur ad Fidem, sed sibi Scripturas ipse subijciat: Non ut ideò illi placeat aliquid, quia hoc in sublimi Authoritate scriptum legitur: sed ideo rectè scriptum videatur, quia hoc illi placuit: Ye see therefore, this is your drift, that all Authority of the Scriptures be removed: that each man may be lead by his own fantasy, what he list, either to allow in the Holy Scriptures, or to disallow: that is to say, that he submit not himself, touching his Faith, to the Authority of the Scriptures: but that he make the Scriptures subject unto him: Not that he will allow any thing, because it is written in that high Authority of the Scriptures: but that he will think it well written, because he alloweth it. By mean hereof it cometh to pass, that S. Hilary writeth, Qui, quae scripta sunt, negas, quid superest, nisi ut, 
Hilari. De Trinitate, li. 9  quae non scripta sunt, probes? For as much as thou deniest the things that be written, what remaineth there, but that thou must allow the things, that be not written?  
Concerning the Authority, and Credit of Councils, we shall have cause to say more hereafter. But where ye require, but a man of common sense, to sit as judge in this cause, it appeareth, that either ye remember not, or else ye weigh not, that ye immediately said before. For in this self same Chapter ye say, The people may not judge of their Bishops: and that, as ye tell us, by Christ's own Doctrine: For the Scholar is not above his Master. Yet now suddenly, as having forgotten your own words, ye call forth the Scholare, yea, and as it may be thought, one of the meanest of all your School, as a man only endued with common sense, to sit in judgement over his Master.  
notwithstanding, 
Actor. 10. johan. 3. Extra. De Electi. & Electi potastat. Significasti. Abb.  God is no accepter of persons. God's Holy Spirit is not bound to Councils, or Companies: but breatheth freely, where it listeth. And therefore, as your own Doctor Panormitane saith, in Cases of Religion the judgement of one Simple plain man ought sometimes to be received before the judgement of the Pope.    
Here endeth the Fourth part.   

The fifth part.  

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division, 1.  
But here, 
Old. New.  I look, they will say, though they have not the Scriptures, yet it may chance, they have the Ancient Doctors, and the Holy Fathers with them. For this is a high brag they have ever made, how that all Antiquity, & a Continual Consent of all ages doth make on their side: and that all our cases be but New, and yester days work, and until these few late years were never heard of. Questionless, there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the Religion of God, then to accuse it of Novelty, as a matter lately found out. For as there can be no change in God himself, so ought there to be no change in his Religion.  
Yet nevertheless, we wot not by what means, but we have ever seen it come so to pass, from the first beginning, that as often as God did give but some light, & did open his Truth unto men, though the Truth were not only of greatest Antiquity, but also from Everlasting, yet of wicked men, & of the Adversaries it was called New-fangled, and of late devised. That ungraceous, and bloodthirsty Haman, when he sought to procure the king Assuerus displeasure against the jews, 
Esther. 3.  this was his accusation to him: Thou hast here (saith he) a kind of people, that useth certain new Laws of their own, but stiff-necked, and rebellious against all thy Laws. When Paul also began first to preach, 
Actor. 17.  and expound the Gospel at Athenes, he was called a tidings bringer of New Gods: as much to say, as of a New Religion. For (said the Athenians) may we not know of thee, what New Doctrine this is? Celsus likewise, when he of set purpose wrote against Christ, to the end he might more scornfully scoff out the Gospel by the name of Novelty, What, 
Origen. Contra Celsum.  saith he, hath God after so many ages now at last, and so late bethought himself? Eusebius also writeth, that the Christian Religion from the beginning, for very spite, was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is to say, New, and Strange. After like sort, these men condemn all our matters, as Strange, and New: but they will have their own, whatsoever they are, to be praised, as things of long continuance.  

M. harding.  
They had said some what, if they had proved, that the doctrine 
* A vain distinction. For neither do we call our Doctrine New.  of Christ had been called now by them, who were the professors, and followers of it. But now reporting that the Gentiles, who knew not God, as A man, as the Athenians, as Celsus the Ethnic, and such the like, called the right and true Religion of God, new: they say nothing to any purpose. But let them show, that before the coming of Christ, any such Religion was allowed, that was new: Or that sithence Christ's incarnation, among Christian men what so ever Religion was not shunned and rejected as heretical, which was new. Here are they dumb. And yet for show of learning in a matter not necessary, they bring forth their store, and declare that the doctrine and Religion of truth was new to them, which knew not God nor Christ the son of God, which no man denieth.  
Thus all men of any judgement may see, how fond they reason. We 
* We tell you, ye have lost the right names of things: and call that New, that in deed is Old.  tell them that all new doctrine now in the Church of Christ is nought: and they prove, that infidels have in the time of Moses law, and at the first preaching of the Gospel, impugned Gods everlasting truth with the odious term and reproach of newness. New doctrine was good to us at our first conversion from infidelity. But since that we received the true faith from S. Gregory the Bishop of Rome, 
‡ Untruth. For the True Faith of Christ had been planted, and still continued in this Realm four hundred years; before the coming of this Augustine.  who converted the Realm of England to the faith by S Augustine his legate, and others sent for that godly purpose: worthily we shun and abhor all new Gospels, new faiths, new doctrines, new religions.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Truth of God neither is furthered by the face of Antiquity: nor hindered by the opinion of Novelty. For oftentimes the thing, that in deed is New, is commended as Old: and the thing, that in deed is Old, is condemned as New. If Newness in Religion in all respects, and every way were ill, Christ would not have resembled his Doctrine to New Wine: 
Math. 9 joh. 13. Luke. 22. Arnobius contra Gentes, li. 2.  nor would he have said to his Disciples, I give you a New Commandment: Neither would he have called the Cup of thanksgiving, The New Testament, in his Blood. Arnobius saith, Religionis Authoritas non est tempore aestimanda, sed numine: nec quo die, sed quid colere coeperis, intueri convenit. Quod Verum est, Serum non est: The Authority of Religion must be weighed by God, and not by time: It behoveth us to consider, not upon what day, but what thing we began to worship. The thing that is true, is never too late.  
S. 
Augu. in quaest. Novi & Veteris Testamenti, quaest. 114. Augustin. De Civita. li. 10. ca 32.  Augustine saith, Quod Anterius est, inquiunt Ethnici, falsum esse non potest. Quasi Antiquitas, & Vetus Consuetudo praeiudicet Veritati: The Heathens say, The Religion, that was first, can not be false: As though Antiquity, and Old Custom could prevail against the Truth. Again he saith, Nec dici debet, quare Modo '? & quare Serò? Quoniam mittentis Consilium non est humano ingenio penetrabile: Neither may we say, Why cometh it now? Why cometh it so late? For the Counsel of God that sent it, is unsearchable to the wisdom of man. Ye say, They were Infidels only, that charged the Religion of Christ with Novelty. And further ye say, We tell them, that all New Doctrine now in the Church of Christ is nought. Hereto, M. harding, we soon agree. And therefore well tell you, that your New Fantasies, which ye have painted with the Colour of Ancienty, and therewith have deceived the world, are vain, and nought. As for us, we have planted no New Religion, but only have renewed the Old, that was undoubtedly founded, and used by the Apostles of Christ, & other Holy Fathers in the Primitive Church: and of this long late time, by mean of the multitude of your Traditions, and Vanities, hath been drowned.  
Therefore we may say with S. 
Bernardus De vita Solitaria.  bernard, Novitatem dico, propter linguas hominum impiorum: qui, cùm manifestum Lumen obnubilare non queunt, de Solo Novitatis nomine cavillantur, etc. Sed haec Novitas non est Novella vanitas. Res enim est Antiquae Religionis: Perfectè fundatae in christo Pietatis: Antiqua Haereditas Ecclesiae Dei: I call it Novelty, because of the tongues of wicked men: who being not able to shadow the manifest light of the Truth, find cavillations upon the Only name of Novelty. But this Novelty is no New Vanity (as is this late upstart Religion of Rome). For it is a matter of Old Religion: of perfit Godliness founded in Christ: The Ancient Inheritance of the Church of God. 
Tertullian. De Virginibus velandi  The Old Learned Father Tertullian saith, Viderint ergo, quibus Nowm est, quòd sibi est Vetus: Haereses non tam Novitas, quam Veritas revincit. 
Augustine of England.  Quodcunque contra Veritatem sapit, hoc est Haeresis, etiam vetus Consuetudo: Let them therefore take heed, which count that thing New, that in itself is Old. Heresy is reproved, not so well by Novelty, as by Verity. What so ever thing savoureth against the Truth, the same is an Heresy: Yea, although it be a Custom never so old. 
Ignatius ad Philadelphien.  Ignatius saith, Antiquitas mea jesus Christus est: My Antiquity is Christ jesus. For otherwise the Religion of Christ at that time was counted New, and in respect of the Ancient Religion of the Heathens, universally, and of all men was condemned.  
That Augustine, the Monker of Rome, brought first the Faith into this Land, it is utterly Untrue. For, as I have said before, it appeareth plainly by sundry the Ancient Fathers, origen, Tertullian, chrysostom, Hilary, Theodoretus, Eusebius, and others, that the Faith of Christ had been universally received, and perfitly rooted in this Realm many hundred years, before this Augustine the Monk was borne. Indeed he brought in great heaps of strange Novelties, and superstitions, as Candles, candlesticks, Banners, and Holy Water, and other like shows: Whereof the Church of God had no great need. And yet have the same sithence been increased by other New devices, and Vanities, above measure.  
But, for as much as certain of M. hardings Beaupecres of Louvain have lately found themselves talk, and kept great Mootes in the behoove of their Augustine, the Italian Monk, whom they call the Apostle of England, and will needs have to be received and honoured, as a Saint, I have thought it therefore good, briefly, and by the way, to note a few words touching the same.  
It seemeth, they be much offended, that so virtuous a Man, and so Holy a Saint should be charged with Pride, and Cruelty. With Pride, in so disdeignefully despising his Brethren, the Bishops of this Ilelande of Britain: With Cruelty, in procuring the Death both of many thousands of Christian people, and also specially of the Innocent, and Unarmed Monks of Bangor: and all this, for that they refused to receive him as their Metropolitan, and to agree with him in certain small points of the Roman Religion. How be it, his Pride is well blazed by Beda, writing purposely of the same, in that he sat still in his Throne, 
Beda: Septem Britannor. Epis. & plures Viri Doctissimi.  and disdeigned to rise up, and to give any token of Reverence unto the Seven Bishops, and other Learned, & grave men of the britains, making their appearance at his Council. And therefore they said, they would not hearken to his demands, nor take him for their archbishop, as having otherwise of old an archbishop of their own, to whom they ought their obedience. Their words, as they are reported by Beda, were these: Si modo ' nobis assurgere noluit, 
Beda. lib. 2. ca 2.  quanto ' magis, si ei subdi coeperimus, iam nos pro nihilo conteinner? If even now be disdain to rise up unto us, how much more will he despise us, and regard us as nothing, when we shall once be under his jurisdiction?  
But, to excuse this Augustine of shameful Cruelty, lest he should seem to be accessory to the Murdering of so many, and so by their own Laws to be Irregulare, as a man of blood, they say, He neither enkendled the War against the Britain's, nor was present at the fight: but was dead long before. Which thing also they think, may be proved by the express words of Beda. For thus he saith. 
Beda eodem loco  Quamuis ipso Augustino iam multo antè tempore ad Coelestia Regna sublato: notwithstanding Augustine himself, long before the time of this War, were taken up into the kingdom of Heaven. For the truth, and certainty hereof, it may please thee, good Christian Reader, to understand, that these last words of Beda, concerning the Death of Augustine, are manifestly forged, and have been violently thrust into the text, by a guileful Parenthesis, by them, that sithence have been ashamed of his Cruelty, 
Augustine of England.  and were never written by the author, as by evident proofs it shall plainly appear.  
But first of all, in an Old chronicle, written in French above two hundred years passed, 
Thomas Gray. Augustine the inflamer of the War.  by Thomas Gray, ye shall find it recorded thus: Augustine, being thus refused of the Bishops, and others the Learned of the Britain's, made such complaint thereof to Ethelberte the king of kent, that forth with he levied his Power, and Marched against them, and slew them in most Cruel wise, having (as he saith) no more regard of mercy, than a Wolf hath upon a Sheep. Hereby it appeareth, that this Augustine was the inflamer of the War, and so the causer of the slaughter.  
And whereas, by the words of Beda, as they be now commonly extant in the Latin, we are told, this Augustine was dead, long before the War began, it appeareth plainly by the true Beda in deed, 
The true story of Beda, Translated by King alfred. Augustine alive in the time of the War.  translated above seven hundred years ago into the old English, or Saxon tongue, by Alfredus, or Aluredus then King of this land, that the same Augustine was yet alive, after the same War was ended, & that he afterward Consecrated two Bishops, Mellitus, & justus: Mellitus, to be Bishop of London: and justus, to be Bishop of Rochester. Which things thus declared, it followeth orderly in the story, Then (these Wars being ended, & these bishops Consecrated) afterward died the beloved Father Augustine. After the War he died, he saith: and not Before, as they have sithence altered it in the Latin. I trwo, M. Harding, ye are not so much amazed with the admiration of your Augustine, that ye will say, he had power to Consecrate Bishops, and to use his Archiepiscopal Authority, being dead.  
As for these words, that we find reported by the Parenthesis, in the Latin, as written by Beda, (Quamuis Augustino iam mùlto anté tempore ad coelestia Regna sublato) For as much as they are quite contrary to the very course, and order of the story, and specially for that they are not once touched in the Ancient Saxon Translation, sundry Copies whereof at this present are extante, and to be seen, of such Reverend Antiquity, as may not justly be called in question, therefore we have good cause to judge, that the said words have been sithence forced, and shifted in, by some good skille, and policy, lest Augustine, so holy a man, should be found guilty of so great a Cruelty. 
An. Dom.   

596 August. cometh into England.  
597  
598  
599  
600  
601 August, receiveth his pall.  
602  
603  
604 August. consecrateth Mellitus, and justus.  
605 Gregory dieth. The war against the Britain's: The Saxon Chronicle of Peterburrough.  
606  
607  
608 August. dieth: Flores Historiar.   
Verily, 
The abstract of Chronicles written.  in the Old English Chronicle it is recorded, not only that this Augustine, the Italian Monk, by his complaint caused the King of Kente to arm his people against the true, and Faithful Christians of this Country, then being in Wales: or, that he was alive at the time of the battle, but also, that he was himself present in person going toward the same. The words be these: Augustine came again, and told king Ethelberte, that the Britain's would not obey him. Wherefore the King was wroth, and sent to Elfrede the king of Northumberland to come to help him, to distress the Britain's of Wales. And (Augustine) the archbishop of Canturburie met with them at Leicester. 
Augustine alive, and in company with the kings marching towards the filled.  The King of Leicester at that time was called Brocuale. He being afraid of the two Kings, fled out of the Land, and came never again. And the two kings seized all his lands, and departed them between themselves. And afterward they went to wards Wales. The Britain's heard of them, and sent men to them in their shirts, and harefoot, to ask mercy. But they were so cruel, that they had of them no pity, etc. Hereby it appeareth. that this Augustine, not only enkindled this cruel War, but also was alive, and present in the Army.  
Therefore, M. harding, it shall henceforth be good, both for you, and for your Fellows, not to adventure so rashly in judgement, before ye know.  
Thus much briefly, as anweare unto them, that so feign would have their Augustine acquitted of Pride, and Cruelty.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 2.  
Wherein they do much like to the Conjurers, & Sorcerers now a days, which working with Devils, use to say, they have their Books, and all their Holy, and hid Mysteries from Athanasius, Cyprian, Moses, Abel, Adam, and from the Archangel Raphael: to the end, that their cunning being thought to come from such patrons and Founders, might be judged the more high and Holy. After the same manner these men, because they would have their own Religion, which they themselves, and that not long sithence, have brought forth into the world, to be the more easily, and rather accepted of foolish persons, or of such, as cast little, whereabout they or others do go, they are wont to say, they had it from Augustine, Jerome, Chrysostom, from the Apostles, and from Christ himself. Full well know they, that nothing is more in the people's favour, or better liketh the common sort, than these names.  

M. harding.  
Nay Sirs, yourselves may with more reason be likened to Enchanters, Necromancers, and Witches. For as they say, that they have their Books, and their mysteries from those Doctors, and first Fathers, and from Raphael the Archangel, but cannot show the delivery thereof by any succession from hand to hand, as for example, who received the same from Raphael, from Adam, from Abel, etc. and who kept them from time to time: so ye say also, that ye have your Gospel, and every part of your Doctrine from the Apostles, from Christ, from the Prophets, from the patriarchs, from heaven, from Gods own bosom, 
jacob. 1●  who is Father of lights. But ye cannot shows us your lawful succession, by whom, and by whose preaching, as by hands, it came down along from Christ and his Apostles unto you. 
‡ It lay in the Scriptures, and in the Books of the Holy Fathers.  Where lay your sacramentary Doctrine hidden between the time of your Prophet Zuinglius, and your Patriarch Berengarius? How, and by what delivery from hand to hand continued the same those five hundred years? She we us your succession. Where be your Bishops, where be your Churches?  
The Doctrine, which the Catholics of our Country hold, and profess, 
* Untruths impudent. Read the Answer.  as well touching the blessed sacrament, as all other points of our faith, they have received it of their Bishops, and they of their Predecessors, by order until they reach to S. Augustine: S. Augustine received it of S. Gregory: * he of others before him: * and they all one of an other by continual aescente unto S. Peter: who received it of Christ: Christ of God his Father. * And this Doctrine we find taught and plainly set forth in the books that 
‡ Untruth. For all this is but a show of empty names, and nothing in them.  S. Augustine, Jerome, Chrysostom, Ambrose, Basile, Cyprian, Dionyse, and the other holy Fathers have left to the Posterity. And so they be witnesses of the truth of the Doctrine which our Bishops have taught us.  
Preach ye, and cry ye out never so much, make so many Laws in your parliaments, as ye list, imbrue your sword in the Blood of the Catholic Christians, as ye cry for it in your pulpits, yet shall that rock, whereon we stay, be too hard for you. Neither shall ye ever be able to overthrow the Catholic Church builded thereupon. For certain we are, that neither all your power, nor Hell gates shall prevail against it. 
Matth. 16.    

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Marcus Varro was wont to say, utile est Civitatibus, ut se viri fortes, etiamsi falsum fit, 
Pretence of Antiquity.  Dijs genitos esse credant: It is very behoveful for Cities, and Common Weals, that men of Valiant courage believe themselves to be the Children of the Gods, yea although in deed it be untrue. 
Augusti. De Civitate, Li. 3. ca ●.  Unto which words S. Augustine addeth these: Haec Sententia, cernis, quàm latum locum aperiat falsitati Ye see, how large a scope this saying doth open to the Maintenance of Falsehedde. Many vain men, to advance the Nobility of their blood, have fet their petite degrees, some from Achilles, some from Aeneas, some from Hercules, and some from the Ark of Noe. The Heretic Dioscorus, to get some credit to his Doctrine, would seem to bring the descent thereof from all the Ancient Fathers of the Church. For thus he said in the open Council, 
Concil. Chalced. Actio. 1. Pa. 767.  Ego testimonia habeo Sanctorum Patrum, Athanasij, Gregorij, Cyrilli, in multis locis. Ego cum Patribus eijcior: Ego defendo Patrum Dogmata: Non transgredior in aliquo: Et horum Testimonia, non simpliciter, neque transitoriè, sed in Libris habeo: I have the witness of the Holy Fathers, Athanasius, Gregorius, cyrillus, in many places. I am thrown forth with the Fathers: I defend the Father's Doctrine: I serve not from them in any point: I have their witness, not barely, nor by the way, but in their Books.  
So said the Heretic Eutyches, Ego legi Scripta Beati Cyrilli, & Sanctorum Patrum, 
Concil. Chalced. Actio. 1. Pa. 793. Concil. Chalced. Actio. 4. Pa. 877.  & Sancti Athanasij: I have read the Books of Cyrillus, of the Holy Fathers, and of Athanasius. So said the Heretic carosus, Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem & octo Patrum, sic Credo: sic Baptizatus sum: Thus do I believe, and thus was I baptized, according to the Exposition of the three hundred, and eighteen Fathers in the Council of Nice. Thus y● Arian Heretics alleged the Authority of the Ancient Father Origen: thus the Pelagian Heretics alleged the Authority of S. Augustine. As, upon occasion, it hath been said before.  
Even with such truth, M. harding, are you wont to blaze the Arms of your Religion. There is no toy so vain, or so fabulous, but ye are able by your cunning to bring it lineally, either from Christ himself, or from his Apostles, or from one, or other of the Ancient Fathers. The Bishop of Sidon in the Late diet of the empire holden at Augusta, 
Anno. 1548.  avouched openly that ye had your whole Canon from the Apostles of Christ, word by word, even as it is péevishely written in your Mass Books. Andrea's Barbatius proveth the Antiquity of the cardinals of Rome, 
1. Regum 2. Polydorus De Inuentorib. Li. 4 Cap. 9  by these words written in the first Book of the Kings, Domini sunt Cardines Terrae: Et posuit super eos Orbem: The Corners of the Earth be the Lords: and upon them he hath set the world, Abbate Panormitane saith, Cardinalatus est de jure Divino: Quia Papa per Sacerdotes Leuiticos intelligit Cardinals: The Cardinalship standeth by the Law of God: 
Extra, Qui filii sint Legitimi. per Venerabilem. Abb.  For the Pope by the Levitical Priests understandeth his Cardinals. 
Much hereof is alleged before.  Hosius seemeth to say, that Monks have their beginning even from the Apostles, meaning thereby, as one of your Companions there doth, in favour, I trow, of Religion, that Christ himself was the Abbot. For thus he saith, 
Hosius in Confession Petricovien. Cap. 88 Copus, Dialo. 2. Pag. 194.  Christus Dux, & exemplar vitae Monasticae: Christ was the Captain, and sampler of Monks life. And yet the same man afterward, as having forgotten his former dream, utterly displaceth Christ, & giveth the whole honour hereof unto Elias, & Elizaeus: These be his words, Elias, & Elizaeus Duces instituti Benedictini: Elias, and Elizaeus were the captains of S. Benettes order, that is to say, they were Black Monks? By like wisdom ye would seem to fetch your Holy Water from S. Augustine. This was sommetime a joily good way to win credit, specially while, what so ever ye said, the people was ready to give you care. So the old Arcades said in commendation of their Antiquity, that they were a day, or two elder than the Moon. Saturnus 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  being in Italy, for that he was a stranger, & no man knew, from whence he came, therefore was called Filius Caeli, & was thought to come from Heaven, Romulus, & Alexander, for that they were borne in bastardy, & never knew their own Fathers, therefore to magnify the nobility of their blood, would be called the Children of the Gods: the one of Mars, that other of juppitter.  
With such Truth, 
Pretence of Antiquity.  and Fidelity, M. harding, your wont is, to paint out all the parts, and members of your Doctrine. For, be it never so vain, or childish, or lately devised, yet ye bear us in hand, that your Predecessors received the same, as you say, of their Bishops: and they of others their Predecessors by order, until they reach to your Augustine the Monk of Rome, whom ye have full worthily made a Saint: your Augustine ye say received the same of Gregory: Gregory of others before him: and they all, one of an other by continual ascent unto S. Peter: and Peter of Christ: and Christ of God his Father.  
No Herald could lightly have said more in the matter. I trow ye would prove by this Ascente, and Descente, that God the Father made Holy Water, and said Mass.  
In deed, as well herein, as also in your empty names of Augustine, Jerome, Chrysostom, Ambrose, Basile, Cyprian, Dionyse, etc. as I told you once before, ye bring us only a vain show of painted boxes, and nothing in them. For in all these Holy Fathers, where find you either your Private Mass: or your half communion: or your Accidents without Subject: or the rest of your like Vanities, wherewith ye have so long time deceived the world? Leave your dissimulation: set apart your Confectures, and blind gheasses: and for your credits sake, once show us these things in the Ancient Holy Fathers: and show them plainly, and in deed: that we may think there is some weight in your word.  
But your own Gloze speaking of the Ministration of the Holy Communion, which now in your Churches in a manner is wholly abolished, saith thus: Hoc Antiquum est. 
De Conse. Dist 2. per acta. In Gloss. Doc. Tonstallus, De Eucharistia. Lib. 1 Pag. 45. Anno. 1215. Erasm. 1. Corin. 7  Nam hodiè videtur esse relictum: This was the Old order. For, as it seemeth, now it is left. doctor Tonstal saith, It was no Heresy to deny your Transubstantiation, before your late Council of Laterane. Erasmus, whoes judgement, I think, ye will not refuse, saith thus, In Synaxi Transubstantiationene sir ò definivit Ecclesia: In the Holy Ministration, it was long, ere the Church determined the Article of Transubstantiation. All this notwithstanding, M. harding, ye blush not to say, that both these, and all other your fantasies, have been conveyed unto you by most certain Succession, from hand to hand: from your English Augustine: from Gregory: from the Fathers: from the Apostles: from Christ: and from the bosom of God himself.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 3.  
But how if the things, which these men are so desirous to have seem New, be found of greatest Antiquity? Contrariwise, how if all the things well nigh, which they so greatly set out with the name of Antiquity, having been well and thoroughly examined, be at length found to be but New, & devised of very late? soothly to say, no man, that hath a true, and right consideration, would think the jews Laws, and Ceremonies to be New in deed, for all Hammans accusation. For they were graven in very Ancient Cables of greatest Antiquity. And, although many did take Christ to have swerved from Abraham, and the Old Fathers, and to have brought in a certain New Religion in his own name, yet answered he them directly: If ye believed Moses, ye would believe me also. For my Doctrine is not so New, as you make it. For Moses, an author of greatest Antiquity, and one, to whom ye give all honour, hath spoken of me. S. Paul likewise, Though the Gospel of jesus Christ be of many counted to be but New, yet hath it (saith he) a testimony most old, both of the Law, and of the Prophets. As for our doctrine, which we may more rightly call Christ's Catholic Doctrine, it is so far of from New, that God, who is above all most Ancient, and the Father of our Lord jesus Christ, hath left the same unto us in the Gospel, in the Prophets, and Apostles works, being monuments of greatest age. So that noman can now think our Doctrine to be New, unless the same think, either the prophets Faith, or the Gospel, or else Christ himself to be New.   

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 1. & 2.  
And as for their Religion, if it be of so long continuance, as they would have men ween it is, why do they not prove it so by the examples of the Primitive Chruche, and by the Fathers, and Counsels of Old times? Why lieth so Ancient a cause thus long in the dust, destitute of an Advocate? Fire, and sword they have had always ready at hand: but as for the Old Counsels, and Fathers, all Mum, not a word. They did surely against all reason, to begin first with these so bloody, and extreme means, if they could have found other more easy, and gentle ways.  
And if they trust so fully to Antiquity, and use no dissimulation, why did john Clement a Country man of ours, but few years paste, in the presence of certain honest men, and of good credit, tear and cast into the fire certain leaves of Theodorete the most Ancient Father, and a Greek Bishop, wherein he plainly and evidently taught, that the Nature of Bread in the Communion is not changed, or abolished, or brought to nothing? And this did he of purpose, because he thought there was no other copy thereof to be found.  

M. harding.  
touching the matter you have devised upon M. Clement, he doth not only deny it in word, that ever he burnt or otherwise destroyed any leaf of Theodoritus, but also declareth by the whole order of his life, and by special regard and love he beareth to the tongue, which that learned Bishop wrote in, that he hath ever been, and yet is far from the will to burn or destroy any scrap, syllable, or letter of Greek, much more certain leaves of the learned Father Theodoritus, where any such thing was written, as you imagine. Nay, Well ye have the truth? In very deed he saith, and by such way, as a godly and grave man may avouch a troth, protesteth, that he never had hitherto any part of that book, neither in Greek, or in Latin in written hand.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This report was made in the presence, and hearing of M. Peter Martyr, and sundry other learned men, of whom certain are yet alive. The reporter was both a Learned man, and a grave Father, & not long sithence a Bishop in England: who said, he was present, and saw the thing done with his eyes. More to say hereof, I am not able.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 3.  
Why saith Albertus Pigghius, that the Ancient Father S. Augustine had a wrong Opinion of Original Sin? 
Dis. 27. Quidam Augusti. De Bono Viduita. Cap. 10.  And that he erred, and lied, and used False Logic, as touching the case of Matrimony concluded after a Vow made: which Matrimony S. Augustine affirmeth to be perfit in deed, & that it may not be undone again.  

M. harding.  

* M. harding refuseth S. Augustine's Authority.  We never took ourselves bound to any private opinion of what so ever doctor. For all our faith is Catholic, that is to say, Universal, such as not one Doctor alone 
‡ This Untruth is over cold, & vain For M. harding well knoweth, the substance of his Doctrine standeth not by the Doctoures.  but the Universal number of Doctoures have taught, and Christian people have received. If in a secret point of learning S. Augustine or S. Cyprian teach singularly, we follow them not. Much less do we bind ourselves to maintain, what so ever Albertus Pighius hath written. Our Doctrine of Original sin is to be readen in the fifth session of the late Tridentine council. 
Sub Paulo. 3.  If Pighius dissent from that, he dissenteth from us. But if he stand only upon some point not yet determined by the Church, his opinion may be tolerated until the Church define that question. When you note the point, (for there are many points in that Doctrine) than we will show you further our mind therein.  
The marriage, which is made after a simple Vow of chastity, standeth in his force, by reason that there is more in marriage, than was in the bare Vow. 
* promiss made unto God without Delivery A folly of all follies.  For in the simple vow there is nothing but a promise made to God, without any deliverance of that thing, which was promised. But in marriage the man and woman by present acceptation of each others bond, do make the matter to extend beyond the nature of a promise. Therefore if likewise the vow made to God were not a simple promise, but also a deliveringe of the thing promised: then cannot the marriage following make voide the vow, which was not only promised, but also performed. 
‡ A Vow made before the Bishop, or Abbate, is of more force than a Vow made before God alone.  The performance is, when he that voweth, doth profess himself in the hands of his Superior by taking the habit of some Religion, or by receiving holy orders of the Bishop. For in that solemn act he delivereth up all his own right and power, so that now be is not master of himself to give his Body to any person in marriage, or otherwise. You should know by the Law of nature, if you would consider it, that if I promise a horse to one man, and afterward promise the same, and deliver him to an other: that the second man is true Lord of that horse, although I have donne injury to him, to whom I made the first promise. For the promise with the delivery, is more vaileable to transfer my right in the horse, than my promise alone. Even so it is a great sin to break a simple Vow of chastity made to God.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
How lightly your Captain General, Albertus Pigghius, weigheth the Authority of S. Augustine, it may appear by his words. For thus he writeth, Quòd non solùm incerta, 
Albert. Pigghi. in 1. controver De peccato Originis.  sed etiam falsa sit Augustini Sententia, ita mihi demonstrari posse videtur: Thus me thinketh, I am able to prove, that S. Augustine's judgement herein is not only uncertain, but also False. And again afterward in the Conclusion, Quòd Augustini Sententia non solùm incerta, sed etiàm certo ' Falsa sit, satis mihi demonstratum videtur: That S. Augustine's Judgement is, not only uncertain, but also certainly False, 
Alber. Pigghius in eadem Controversia.  me thinketh I have sufficiently proved. And again, Non multùm me movet Augustini Sententia: Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re Definitio, & Sententia: S. Augustine's Judgement doth not greatly move me: I like not S. Augustine's Determination and Judgement, touching this matter. And again, Ego omnium, non solùm Aduersariorum, sed etiam Catholicorum receptas in Scholis redarguo Sententias: I do reprove the judgements, 
Ruard. Tapper. Liriensis, Episcopus Lusitanus.  not only of our Adversaries, but also of the Catholics allowed in the Schools. For these causes Ruardus Tapper of Louvain, and Liriensis of Portugal have namely written against Pigghius. 
Vow Simple & Solemn.  And for as much, as ye are desirous to have the point noted, wherein Pigghius so much misliketh S. Augustine's judgement, Petrus à Soto your own doctor noteth it thus, Pigghius de hoc malè audit, 
Petrus à Soto, De Natura, & Gratia.  quasi Peccata in nobis Originalia omnin ò inficietur: Pigghius is il reported of, as a man, that utterly denieth Original sin. Thus your Doctoures weigh S. Augustine's Authority, lighter, or heavier, as they list.  
The matter of Marriage after a Vow is blown away with a seely Distinction of a Vow Simple, and a Vow Double, which ye commonly call a Solemn Vow: and all the same is substantially, & clearly proved by the promise, and delivery of a Horse. Surely, M. harding, a very simple Creature, and somewhat inferior to a Horse, would hardly be tied to such Distinctions. For the better cleeringe hereof, that ye call a Simple Vow, that is made before God alone: that Double, or Solemn, that is made in the presence of the Bishop, or Abbate. Now, it is plainly confessed by your own Doctors, that your Simple Vow, be it never so Simple, yet bindeth you as streitely before God, as the Double.  
For Pope Coelestinus saith, 
Extra, Qui Clerici & voventes. Rursus.  Votum Simplex apud Deum non minùs ligat, quàm solemn: The Simple Vow before God bindeth no less, than the Solemn. And touching the promiss, and Delivery of your Horse, johannes Scotus saith, Alia ratio est, 
Scotus in 4. Senten. Dist. 38. qu. 1.  quòd Vovens Solenniter mittit in possessionem illum, cuì Vovet Solenniter: Vovens autem Privatè, non: sed quasi promittit. Sed haec ratio valet minùs, quàm secunda. Quia omnia, quae intrinseca sunt Voto, ut Votum respicit actum voluntatis, per quem obligat se vovendo, & transfert Dominium suum in alterum, omnia, inquam, ista sunt aequalia hinc inde. Igitur non magis datio hîc, quàm ibi: nec promissio ibi, quàm hîc: An other reason, that they use, is this: That he, that maketh a Solemn Vow, putteth him, to whom he so voweth, in possession. But so doth not he, that maketh a Simple Vow: but only giveth his promiss. This Reason is worse, and weaker, than the second. For all things, that be of the Substance of the Vow, (as a Vow concerneth the Act of the Mind, whereby the Mind bindeth itself by Vowinge, and transposeth the ownership of itself unto an other) all these things, I say, are of like weight, and equal of either side. Therefore there is no more performance of promiss in the solemn Vow, then in the Simple: nor more promise in the Simple Vow, then in the Solemn. Thus you see, M. harding, with great travail, and much a do, ye have found a difference without difference. 
Caietan. in Thom. second Secundae quast. 88 Arti. 7.  Cardinal Caietan saith, Eiusdem speciei est Transgressio Voti Solennis, & simplicis: Et differunt solùm secundum magis grave, & minùs grave: The breaking of a Vow Simple, and a Vow Solemn, is of one kind, or Nature: And the difference is only in more grievous, and less grievous. Therefore Thomas of Aquine himself, the first Father, as it appeareth, of this Distinction, saith thus: 
Thomas in Secund. Secundae, quaest. 88 Art. 11. August. De Bono viduitatis Ca 10.  Videtur, quòd Ecclesia possit dispensare in Voto Continentiae Solemnizato per susceptionem Sacri Ordinis: It seemeth, that the Church may dispense with a Vow of Chastity Solemnized by the receiving of Holy Orders.  
And this is it, that S. Augustine saith, Qui dicunt, talium Nuptias, non esse Nuptias, sed potiùs Adulteria, mihi non videntur satis acutè, ac diligenter considerare, quid dicant: They that say, the Marriage of such men, or Weemen (as have Vowed Chastity) is no Marriage at all, but rather advowtry, seem unto me not to consider discreetly, or advisedly, what they say. Thus therefore, M. harding, notwithstanding your Simple, or Double Vow, S. Augustine saith unto you, ye speak Unadvisedly, and undiscreetly, and understand not, what you say. But of this whole matter, we have entreated before more at large.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 4.  
Also, when they did of late put in Print the Ancient Father origen's work upon the Gospel of S. john, 
Liber hody extat & circumfertur mutilus.  why least they quite out the whole sixth chapter, wherein it is likely, yea rather of very surety, that the said Origene had written many things concerning the Sacrament of the Holy Communion, contrary to these men's minds, and would rather put forth that Book mangled, then full and perfit: for fear it should reprove them and their partners of their error. Call ye this trusting to Antiquity, when ye rent in pieces, keep back, maim, and burn the Ancient Fathers?  

M. harding.  
A wise man affirmeth no more then he knoweth: a good man no more then standeth with Charity: a learned man, in matters of weight, no more then he can avouch by evident 
‡ Hereby M. harding saketh much the credit of his own Learning.  reasons, ‡ sure proofs, or ‡ sufficient authorities. This Defender charging the Catholics with mangling of Origen upon S. john's Gospel, as though of purpose they had left out the sixth chapter, which he imagineth to contain their Sacramentary doctrine contrary to the Catholic Faith: for asmuch as he is uncertain hereof, and thereby noteth a great untruth in the setters forth of that work, neither by any means is able to prove the same: he showeth himself a fool, aslaunderer, and an unlearned man. We are like I perceive, to hear of the faults they know by us, sith that they burden us with that, that they know not, and for the same can pretend but a slender conjecture. But Sir defender, why complain you not of the leaving out of other Chapters, and parts of that work, as well as of the sixth Chapter? 
In prolog. 39 Hom. Origenis i● Lucam.  For whereas Origen wrote upon john nine and thirty tomes, as S. Jerome witnesseth: the Latin translation Printed in Venice hath but. 32 lacking the seven last tomes. Neither be all they whole and perfit, but many of them maimed and mangled.  
What manner a Doctrine of the Blessed Sacrament he hath uttered upon the sixth Chapter of john, and how Catholic he was in that point, it appeareth by diverse his other works, that you have no cause to bely him in that you never saw. For the truth of Christ's Body in the Sacrament, his testimonies be evident. 
Hom. 13. In Exod.  For credits sake, here will I recite a couple. In one place he saith thus: Ye know which have been wont to be present at the Divine Mysteries, how that when ye take the Body of our Lord, ye keep it with all wareness and reverence, that no whit thereof fall down, that nothing of the consecrated gift miscarry. For ye believe yourselves to be guilty, and right well do ye so believe, if by negligence ought fall down. In an other place, writing upon the Centurion's words spoken to Christ, 
Hom. 5. in diuerso● evangelii locos.  Matth. 8. When (saith he) thou takest that Holy meat, and that uncorrupt dainty, when thou enjoyest that bread and Cup of Life, thou Eatest and Drinkest the Body, and blood of our Lord, than our Lord entereth under they roof.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We lay not in the mangling of this ancient Father, as matter of sufficient evidence, but only as a great conjecture of your Corruption, referring the judgement thereof unto the Reader. Certainly, M. harding, we have good cause many ways, to doubt your dealing: but in nothing more, then in the handling of the Fathers. 
Concil. Aphrican. Cap. 105.  Ye remember, how wickedly Pope Zosimus, the better to colour his Ambition, long sithence corrupted the Nicene Council. Neither can ye forgeate, what trifles, and fabulous Vanities ye have lately sent us abroad under the old smooky names of Abdias, Leontius, Amphilochius, Hippolytus, and Clemens, whom ye so solemnly call the Apostles Fellow. In these uncleanly conveyances, to any wise man there can appear no simple meaning. notwithstanding ye thought it good policy, to deceive the world by any shift, or shadow of ancient Fathers.  
What Origen thought of the Words of Christ in the sixth Chapter of S. john, 
Origen. in Leviticum, Hom. 7.  it is easy to conjecture, by that he hath written otherwheres. Upon the Leviticus he writeth thus, Est & in evangelio Litera, quae occidit: Si enim secundum Literam sequaris illud, quod dictum est, Nisi Comederitis Carnem filii Hominis etc., ea Litera occidit: Even in the Gospel there is a Letter, that killeth: For where as Christ saith, unless ye eat the Flesh of the Son of Man etc., if ye take the same according to the Letter, that Letter killeth. This was origen's judgement of the Sacrament: and the same in those days was counted Catholic.  
Ye reply: 
Origen. in Exodum, Homi. 13.  Origen saith, When ye take the Body of our Lord, ye keep it with all wariness, and reverence, that no part thereof fall down. And again, When thou takest that Holy meat, 
Origen. in Diversos evangelii locos, Homi. 5.  than our Lord entereth under thy roof. Both these places in my Former Reply are fully answered. But what Catholic Doctrine, M. harding, can ye pike out of these words? What Transubstantiation? What Real Presence? What Accidents without Subject? Ye will say, Origen calleth the Sacrament Christ's Body. So doth Christ himself: so doth Paul: so do all the ancient Fathers: because it is the sacrament of Christ's Body. Your own Gloze saith, 
De Consecra. Dist. 2. Hoc est.  as it hath been often alleged, Vocatur Corpus Christi, id est, Significat Corpus Christi: It is called the Body of Christ, that is to say, it Signifieth the Body of Christ. But the people, ye say, received it warily, and with reverence. So do they now, even in those Churches, that you most mislike withal.  
He saith further, When thou receivest that Holy Meat, than our Lord entereth under thy roof. And what great matter think you to win hereby? Even in the same place Origen saith, Intrat etiam nunc Dominus sub rectum credentium duplici Figura, vel more: Even now the Lord entereth under the roof of the faithful after two manners, or sorts. For, when the Holy, and Godly Bishops enter into your House, even then through them our Lord entereth. Will ye conclude hereof, that the Bishop is Transubstantiate into Christ? Or that Christ is Really, and Substantially dwelling in him? This is an Allegory, M. harding, or a Mystical kind of Speech, wherein, as you know, that Learned Father was much delighted. The Roof, that he meaneth, is not Material, but Spiritual: that is to say, not the Body of Man, but the Soul: Like as also the Coming, or entering of Christ into the same is not Bodily, but only Spiritual.  
So S. Augustine saith, 
Augustin. Quaestionum Euangeli. Li. 2. Ca 33. August. De Tempore, Sermo. 74.  Praedicant Christum, & cum annuntiando venire faciunt in exhausta fame viscera filii esurientis: They Preach Christ, and by preaching, cause him to come into the Bowels of the hungry child, wasted with Famine. Likewise again he saith of the Centurion, Tecto non recipiebat Christum: cord recipiebat: quanto humilior, tanto capacior, tanto plenior: He received not Christ into his house: he received him into his Heart: The more humble, the more room had he to receive him, 
Chrysostom. in Psalm. 41.  and the fuller he was. So saith Chrysostom, Qui vocant david cum Cythara, intus Christum per ipsum vocant: They that call in David with his Harp, by mean of him call in Christ. 
Chrysostom. in Matth. Hom. 46.  Again he saith, Christus aut suscipitur, aut occiditur apud nos. Si enim credimus verbis eius, suscipimus eum, & generamus in nobis: Christ either is received, or slain within us. For if we believe his Word, we receive him, and begeate him within us. 
Hieronym. ad Paulam De obitu Blesillae.  In such sort S. Jerome writeth unto Paula, Ad talem clemens ingreditur jesus, & dicit, Quid ploras? Non est mortua puella: sed dormit: Into such a one jesus entereth mild, and gracious, and saith, Why weepest thou? Thy damesel is not Dead: but lieth asleep.  
This manner of speech, as I said before, is Spiritual, or Mystical: and may not be taken according to the outward sound of the Letter. 
Images painted in churches.  So saith S. Jerome, Secundum Mysticos intellectus, quotidiè jesus ingreditur in Templum Patris: according to the Mystical understanding, 
Hieronym. in Matth. li. 3. ca 21. Origen. in Matth. Tracta. 35.  Christ entereth daily into the Temple of his Father. In this sense Origen saith, Christ entereth into our House. Which phrase, writing upon S. Matthew, he expresseth in plainer manner: Tradunt, & eijciunt ab anima sua salvatorem, & Verbum Veritatis, quod erat in eyes: They betray, and throw forth our savour from out of their Soulet (as do all Apostates, and Renegates, that deny the known Truth of God) and they betray the Word of Truth, that was within them.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 1. & 2.  
It is a world to see, how well-fevouredly, and how towardly, touching Religion, these men agree with the Fathers, of whom they use to vaunt, they be their own good.  
The Old Council Eliberine made a Decree, that nothing, that is honoured of the people, should be painted in the Churches.  

M. harding.  
The words of that provincial Council be these: It is thought good, that paintings be not in the church: 
Eliber. Concil. Ca 36.  that what is worshipped or Adored, it be not painted on Walls. This express prohition of painting, and that nought be painted in Church Walls, that is worshipped or Adored, may seem both to presuppose a former use of such paintings, and also to allow the other sort of images. Whether it do or no, 
* It forceth not greatly.  it forceth not greatly. The seventh general Council assembled at Nice against the image-breakers, hath not only allowed the 
‡ devout use of Images.  devout use of Images commonly used in the Churches of Christian people: but also condemned all those that throw them down, and maintain the contrary opinion. Now we are taught that a provincial Council ought to give place to a General.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The painting of Images in Church walls was forbidden in the Council holden at Eliberis, or Granado in Spain: Ergo, say you, such Images were used before that Council. All this may well be granted without prejudice. But ye see plainly, they were forbidden in that Council. One saith, Ex malis moribus bonae Leges ortae sunt: Of ill manners came good Laws. men used, ye say, before the time to paint Images in Church walls. But this use was nought. And therefore the Council Decreed against it: & that, as it may be gathered by the words, for fear of Idolatry.  
But you say, the second General Nicene Council allowed well the devout use of Images. And a General Council ought to take place before a Provincial: For that in a General Council there are many Bishops: in a Provincial, there are but few. Thus, I see, ye weigh your Religion, not by Truth, but by Company. How be it, this Rule is very lose, & may soon deceive you.  
Good Christian Reader, let no man beguile thee by the colour of Councils. Read this second Nicene Council throughout, if thou be able. Thou wilt say, there was never any Assembly of Christian Bishops so vain, so peevish, so wicked, so blasphemous, so unworthy in all respects to be called a Council. The blessed Bishops there agreed together with one consent, that Images in Churches are not only to be allowed, but also devoutly, and reverently to be honoured, and that with the same Honour, that is dew to God himself. One of them saith, Venerandas Imagines recipio, & Adoro, & id perpetuò docebo: I receive, and worship the Reverend Images: 
Concil. Nicenum 2. Actione. 2.  and this will I teach, while I live. An other saith, Sacras Imagines perfectè Adoro: qui verò secùs consitentur, eos anathematizo: I do perfitly adore the Holy Images: 
Adouring of Images.  and I accurse all them, that hold the contrary.  
another saith, 
Concil. Nicenum 2. Actio. 4.  Non saint duae Adorationes, sed una, Ipsius Imaginis, & primi Exemplaris, cuius est Imago: There be not two kinds of Adoration, but one, dew as well to the Image, as to the Pattern of the Image. This Holy Council, ye say, decreed against image-breakers. But the Counsel of God decreeth against Image woorshippers, and Imagemakers.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Consensu Euangel. Lib. 1. Cap. 10.  Sic omnino errare meruerunt, qui Christum, & Apostolos eius, non in Sanctis Codicibus, sed in Pictis Parietibus quaesierunt. Nec mirum si à Pingentibus Fingentes decepti sunt: So were they worthy to be deceived, that sought, Christ, and his Apostles, not in the Books of Holy Scripture, but in Painted Walls. Neither may we marvel, if Painers by Painters were deceived.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 3.  
The Old Father Epiphanius saith, 
Epiphan. in Epistol. ad johan. Episcop. Hierosolymitan.  It is an horrible wickedness, and a Sin not to be suffered, for any man, to set up any Picture in the Church of the Christians, yea, though it were the Picture of Christ himself. Yet these men store all their Temples, and each corner of them with painted, and carved Images, as though without them, Religion were nothing worth.  

M. harding.  
To that ye pretend to allege out of Epiphanius, we say, first, that although he were of the mind you make him to be of, 
Epiphanius but one man.  and said, as you report of him, yet is he but one man, whose singular opinion is not to be preferred before the 
‡ Untruth. For the ancient Fathers make no mention of Images.  judgement of all other so many excellent Fathers, and the determination of the whole Church. 
* Untruth For we report him truly, as shall appear.  Now in deed you misreport Epiphanius. For he saith not so, as your writ. He calleth not the having of the Image of Christ, of any Saint in the Church an horrible wickedness, or a sin not to be suffered: he hath no such words.  
Secondly, what if we say, this place maketh nothing at all against the use of Images, and that 
‡ Untruth For his words be plain, Imaginem, quasi Christi, aut Sancti cuiusdam.  he speaketh never a word against the Image of Christ, or his Saints in the Church, but only against one particular Image, which he found hanging at a Church door in a village of Palestine called Anablatha? And seeing he 
* A childish, and a vain shift. For Epiphanius speaketh directly against all images.  speaketh not generally against all Images, but against such as that was, which there he noteth by this special word, Istiusmodi Vela, veils of this sort: he giveth us to understand that he misliked some quality or circumstance of that one Image, and not reproved the 
‡ Untruth. For Images than were not commonly received in the Church.  common and received custom of the Church in having Images in due order. Now, what circumstance that was, it dependeth of so many particularities. which might happen either on the Images part, as it is most like, or on the people's part there inhabitant, and is so little declared by Epiphanius in that place, that neither we can say any thing determinately thereof, nor ye should bring such an obscure, and uncertain matter to the disprove of a verity always so well in the Church acknowledged and practised.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O, how many, and how pretty shifts here be devised, if any would help, to serve the purpose? One of the late Lovanian clergy, for that he saw, these words were clear, and might not be avoided by any Gloze, therefore be thought it the wisest way, first to bring the Authority, 
Copus, Dialog. 5. Pag. 692. Copus, Pag. 698.  and credit hereof in question, and to say, 
2.  that Epiphanius never wrote any such Epistle: next he saith, The same Epistle was never translated by S. Jerome. But, for as much as he saw, that his folly herein was open, and easy to be controlled, thirdly he saith, that the Image, 
Epiphanius rent the Image etc.  that Epiphanius rent in sunder, 
3.  was not the Image, either of Christ, or of any Christian Saint, but the Heathen Image of jupiter, or Hercules, 
4.  or somma other Idol, he knoweth not what. Fourthly he saith, The said Holy Father Epiphanius was an Heretic, 
Copus, Pag. 702.  one of those, that were called Anthropomorphitae, 
Copus, Pag. 703.  whose error was, That God in his Divinity had the whole shape, and proportion of a Man. How be it, this folly far passeth all the rest. For it behoved those Heretics most of all others, for defence of their error, to maintain Images. And yet it seemeth a very uncivil part, to condemn so Reverend, & so Godly a Father of so gross an Heresy, without prouse: and specially such a Father, as hath so learnedly written against all Heresies. Fifthly he saith, 
Copus. Pag. 703.  even as M. harding here saith, 
5.  Epiphanius was but a man, & one man, and his judgement singular, and therefore the less to be esteemed. last of all, 
Copus, Pag. 706. 707.  he saith, 
6.  The same Holy Father Epiphanius was a jew: and being a Christian, and a Reverend Father, and a Christian Bishop, yet notwithstanding maintained the Religion of the jews, and therefore rent in sunder the Image of Christ, 
Simeon Metaphrastes.  in despite of Christ. And for proof hereof, he allegeth Simeon Metaphrastes, a doctor as wise as himself.  
M. harding, for that he imagined, these shifts were very unsavoury, & would hardly serve, therefore hath devised to convey himself out some other way. first he saith, We falsiste this Holy Father, and allege his words otherwise, than they be. secondly he saith, It was not the Image of Christ, that Epiphanius found painted in the Vele, but some other pretty thing, he knoweth not what. lastly he saith, Epiphaniusr reproveth not generally all such Veles, so painted, but only that one Vele, that he found.  
For trial hereof, 
Epiphanius ad johan. Hierosolymitan. Apud Hierony. Tom. 2.  I refer me self to the Original. The words thereof be these: inveni ibi velum pendens in foribus eiusdem Ecclesiae tinctum, atque depictum, & habens Imaginem, quasi Christi, aut Sancti cuiusdam. Non enim satis memini, cuius Imago fuerit. Cùm ergo hoc vidissem in Ecclesia Christi, contra Authoritatem Scripturarum, Hominis pendere Imaginem, scidi illud: & magis dedi consilium Custodibus eiusdem loci, ut pauperem mortuum eo obuoluerent, & efferrent etc. Quaeso, ut iubeas Presbyteros eiudem loci praecipere, in Ecclesia Christi istiusmodi Vela, quae contra Religionem nostram veniunt, non appendi: Decet enim honestatem tuam hanc magis habere sollicitudinem, ut crupulositatem tollat, quae indigna est Ecclesia Christi, & populis, qui tibi crediti sunt: I found there a Vele hanging at the entry of the Church, stained, and painted, and having the Image, as it were, of Christ, or of some Saint. For, whose Picture it was in deed, I do not remember. Therefore, when I saw the Image of a man to hang in the Church of Christ, contrary to the commandment of the Scriptures, I tore it in sunder: and gave counsel to the Wardens of that Church, that they should wind, and bury some poor body in it etc. I beseech you, charge the Priests of that place, that they command, that such Veles, as be contrary to our Religion, be no more hanged up in the Church of Christ. It behoveth your reverence to have care hereof, that this Superstition, unmeet for the Church of Christ, and unmeet for the people to thee committed, be removed. Now, judge you, M. harding, wherein we have falsified this Learned Father's words. You say, He speaketh not one word against the Image of Christ, or his Saints. I beseech you then, against what other Image speaketh he? 
Habens Imaginem, quasi Christi, vel Sancti cuiusdam.  Epiphanius saith plainly, It had the Image, as it were, of Christ, or of some Saint: You say, He found fault with that Vele only, & not with any other. Once again, I beseech you, tell us, what had the Image of Christ, or of his Saints offended Epiphanius, more than other Images? If the Image of Christ may not be suffered in the Church of Christ, what Image then may be suffered? What cause of difference can you imagine, that any other Veles should be allowed rather, 
Images in churches.  than this? Your answer is this, We cannot say any thing determinately thereof. Whereby it appeareth, ye would feign say somewhat, if ye wist what. Yet must we be overruled by all and every your determinations, yea, although you yourself confess, ye can determinately determine nothing.  
notwithstanding, the ancient Fathers of the Church have long sithence determinately, 
Lactant. Lib. 2. Ca 19  and plainly judged against you. Lactantius saith in plain words: Non est dubium, quin Religio nulla sit, ubicunque Simulachrum est: Out of all doubt, there is no Religion, where so ever there is an Image. Tertullian saith, 
Tertullian. De Idololatria.  Idolum tam fieri, quàm coli Deus prohibet. Quanto ' praecedit, ut fiat, quod coli possit, tantò prius est, ne fiat, si coli non licet. Facio, ait quidam, sed non colo: quasi ob aliquam causam colere non audeat, nisi ob quam & facere non debeat: Scilicet, ob Dei offensam utrobique. Imò tu colis, qui facis ut coli possit: God hath forbidden an Image, or an Idol, as well to be made, as to be worshipped. As far as making goeth before worshipping, so far is it before, that the thing be not made, that may not be worshipped. Some man will say, I make it: but I worship it not: As though he durst not to worship it for any other cause, but only for the same cause, for which he ought not to make it. I mean both ways for God's displeasure. Nay rather, thou woorshippest the Image, that givest the cause, for others to worship it. Therefore S. Augustine, speaking of the Image of God the Father, 
August. De Fide & Symbolo. Ca 7.  saith thus, Tale simulachrum Deo fingere, nefarium est: To devise such an Image for God, it is abominable.  
Theodorus the Bishop of Ancyra saith, Sanctorum Imagines, & Species ex Materialibus coloribus formati minimè decorum puramus. 
Citatur in Concil. Nicen. 2. Action. 6.  Manifestum enim est, quòd vana sit huiusmodi cogitatio, & Diabolicae deceptionis inventum: We think it not convenient, to Paint the Images of Saints with Material, or Earthly colours. For it is evident, that this is a vain Imagination, and the procurement of the deceitfulness of the Devil.  
To like yourpose writeth Epiphanius, Estote memores, dilecti filii, ne in Ecclesias Imagines inferatis, neque in Sanctorum Coemiterijs eas statuatis. Sed perpetuò circumferte Deum in cordibus vestris. Quin etiam neque in domo communi tolerentur. Non enim fas est, Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri, sed per occupationem mentis: My dear Children, be ye mindful, that ye bring no Images into the Churches, and that ye erect up none at the burials of the Saints. But evermore carry God in your Hearts. Nay, suffer not Images to be, no not in your private Houses. For it is not lawful, to lead a Christian man by his eyes, but rather by the study, or exercise of his mind.  
For this cause Epiphanius saith, The Superstition of Images is unfit for the Church of Christ.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 4.  
The old Fathers Origene, 
Origen. in Levi. Ca 16.  & Chrysostom exhort the People to read the Scriptures, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 2. Idem in johan. 31.  to buy them Books, to reason at home bitwixte themselves of Divine matters: wives with their Husbands, & Parents with their Children: These men condemn the Scriptures, as dead Elements, and, asmuch as ever they may, bar the People from them.  

M. harding.  

‡ Untruth. For the whole hereof is true: and no part false.  Partly it is true, partly false, that you say. Origen exhorteth all, to resort to the Churches in the Holy days, 
Homil 9 in levit. Cap. 16.  and there to hear the words of God: and thereof afterward to think earnestly, and to meditate on the Law of God, and to exercise their minds in it day and night, in the way, in their house, in their bed, and when they rise. This hold we withal, and be desirous, the 
* Ovaine excuse. Many of your people never hear Sermon in all there lives.  people bear away that the true and Godly Preachers teach them in the Church, 
Reading of the Scriptures  and that they think of it, and put it in daily practice of life. For else to what serveth all our preaching?  
Chrysostom Hom. 2. in Math. speaketh against them, which contemned the Scriptures, and said, they were no Monks, but had wives and Children, and care of household. As though it pertained not to married men to read any part thereof, but to Monks only.  
If in our time the people might be induced to read the Holy Scriptures, with such minds, for such causes, to such intents and purposes only, as Chrysostom requireth: God forbidden, we should by any means stay them therefrom. 
‡ M. hardings favourable opinion of the people.  But considering the manner of our time, and calling to due examination the curiosity, the temerity, the unreverence, the contempt of all holy things, that now all men may espy in the people: if we think it not good they be admitted to the reading of the Scriptures freely and without any limitation, how so ever you and your fellows judge of us, we doubt not of the account, we have to make of that our meaning before our Lords dreadful seat of judgement. Now to conclude, we tell you, that you have misreported both Chrysostom, and specially Origen. For how so ever they speak of the reading, and meditation of the Scriptures, for amendment of life, verily in the places by you quoted, 
* manifest untruth. Read the Answer.  they exhort not the people to reason, and dispute of divine matters among themselves, specially the husbands with their wives, the parents with their children, as you say they do.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
For as much as ye say, part hereof is true, and part false, I trust, ye will give us leave freely to use the Truth, until ye shall find yourself better able to prove the Falshedde. It seemeth not greatly to mislike you, that the people have some little liberty, to read some such part of the Scriptures, as you may best spare them, for the ordering of their lives. Whereby it appeareth, that for quieting of their Consciences in matters of Religion, and causes of Truth, ye think it best, they read nothing. And this, ye say, ye are able to answer before the dreadful seat of God's judgement. touching the Truth hereof, to say so much, as might be said, it would require great waste of time. S. Augustine saith, Si desit, 
August. De Civita. Li. 11. Ca 2. Hieronym. ad Demetriad. De Virginita tuenda.  aut ignoretur, quà eundum fit, quid prodest nosse, quò eundum fit? If ye have not, or know not, what way to go, 
August. De Tempore, Sermo. 55.  what shall it profit you to know, whither to go? S. Jerome saith, Vt maius est, voluntatem Domini facere, quàm nosse, ita prius est nosse, quàm facere. Illud Merito praecedit: Hoc ordine: As it is more, to do the will of our Lord, then to know it: so the Knowledge of the same goeth before the doing. In goodness, doing goeth before: in order, Knowing. Again S. Augustine saith, Si Scripturas Divinas aut non legimus ipsi, aut legentes alios non libenter audimus, ipsa nobis medicamenta convertuntur in vulnera: & inde habebimus judicium, unde potuimus habere remedium: If we either read not the Scriptures ourselves, or be not desirous to hear others read them, then are our Medicines turned into wounds: and then, where we might have had remedy, we shall have judgement. Such sayings are common, and ordinary in S. Chrysostom. Thus he saith, 
Chrysostom. in Genesim, Hom. 6.  Librum Divinum accipiat aliquis in manum: convocatisque proxìmìs, per Divina eloquia riget & suam mentem, & convenientium: ut sic Diabolicas insidias effugere valeamus: Let one of you take in hand the Holy Book: and let him call his Neighbours about him: and by the Heavenly words let him water, and refresh both their minds, 
Chrysostom. in Genes. Homil. 10.  and also his own. Again he saith, Poterimus & domi versantes, ante, & post Conuivium, acceptis in manus Divinis Libris, utilitatem inde capere, & Spiritualem Cibum animae praebere. Being at home, we may both before, and after Meat, take the Holy Books in hand, and thereof receive great profit, 
Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 29.  and Minister spiritual food unto our soul. And again, Etiam domi vacemus Divinarum Scripturarum Lectioni: Even when we be at home, let us bestow our time in reading thee Scriptures.  
Origen saith, utinam omnes faceremus illud, quod Scriptum est, Scrutamini Scripturas: Would God we would all do, accordingly as it is written, Search the Scriptures. 
Origen. in Esatam, Homil. 2.   
But ye say, we have misreported both Chrysostom, and Origen. For they exhort not the people (as you say) to reason of Divine matters among themselves, specially the Husbands with their wives, etc. Whether of us both maketh truer report, let us be tried by Chrysostom. 
Chrysost. in johan. Homil. 2. Chrysostom. in Matth. Homi. 78.  Thus he saith, Neque in hoc tantùm consessu, sed domi quoque, Vir cum Vxore, Pater cum Filio, invicem de his frequenter loquantur: & ultrò, citroque suam & ferant, & inquirant sententiam: Velintque hanc probarissimam inducere consuetudinem: Hearken not hereto only here in the Church, but also at home, let the Husband with the Wife, let the Father with the Child, talk together of these Matters: and, both to, and fro, let them both inquire, and give their judgements: And, would God they would begin this good Custom.  
Here have you, M. harding, the Husband communing of Divine matters with his Wife: and the Father with his Child. Therefore so unadvisedly to say, we have misreported this Holy Father, it was of your part a misreport.  
Likewise S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. in Episit. ad Coloss. Ca 3. In illud: Verbum Dei habitet in vobis. Hieronym. in psalm. 133.  Hic ostenditur, verbum Christi, non suffiele●ter, sed abundanter, etiam Laicos habere debere: & docere se invicem, vel monere: Here we are aught, that even the Lay menue ought to have the Word of God, not only sufficiently, but also obundantly: and one to instruct, and to warn an other, Again he saith, Solent & Viri, solent & Monachi, solent & Mulierculae hoc inter se habere certamen, ut plures ediscant Scripturas: Both Married men, and Monks, and Wives, commonly have this contention among themselves, who may learn most Scriptures.  
To conclude, 
Theodoretus De Corrigen. Graecor. affectib. li. 5.  Theodoretus saith thus, Passim videas nostra dogmata non ab ijs solùm tenèri etc. Ye may commonly see, that our Doctrine is known, not only of them, that are the Doctors of the Church, and the Masters of the people, but also even of the Tailors, and Smiths, and Weavers, and of all Artificers: Yea, and further also of women: and that, not only of them, that be Learned, but also of labouring women, and Sewsters, and Servants, and Handemaìdes. Neither only the Citizens, 
De Divina Trinitate, rerumque omnium Creatione dissertantes.  but also the Countriefolkes do very well understand the same. Ye may find, yea, even the very Dichers, and Deluers, and Cowheardes, and gardiner's disputing of the Holy Trinity, and of the Creation of all things.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 4. & 5.  
The Ancient Fathers, 
Cypria, Epis. 11. Lib. 1.  Cyprian, Epiphanius, and Jerome say, for one, who perchance hath made a Vow, 
Epiphan. contra Apostolicos, haeres. 61.  to lead a sole life, and afterward liveth unchastely, and cannot quench the flames of lust, 
Hieronym. ad Demetriadem. August. De Bono viduita. Ca 10.  it is better to marry a Wife, and to live honestly in wedlock. And the Old Father Augustine judgeth, the self same Marriage to be good & perfit, & that it ought not to be broken again. These men, if a man have once bound himself by a Vow, though afterward he burn, keep queans, and defile himself with never so sinful, and desperate a life, yet they suffer not that person to marry a Wife: or, if he chance to marry, they allow it not for Marriage. And they commonly teach, It is much better, and more Godly to keep a Concubine, or an cost, then to live in that kind of Marriage.  
The Old Father S. Augustine complained of the Multitude of vain Ceremonies, 
Augustin. ad januar. Epist. 118.  wherewith he even then saw men's minds and Consciences overcharged: These men, as though God regarded nothing else but their Ceremonies, have so out of measure increased them, that there is now almost none other thing left in their Churches, and places of prayer.  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
All that M. harding hath here to say, 
In the 2. Dart. 8. Chapter, 1. Division: and, 2. part. 17. Chap. 1. Division.  hath been both alleged, and also fully answered before in a place more convenient.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 5.  
Again, that Old Father S. Augustine denieth it to be lawful for a Monk, to spend his time slothfully in Idleness, &, under a pretenced, and counterfeit Holiness, to live all upon others. And who so thus liveth, the Old Father Apollonius likeneth him to a Thief. These men have (I wot not whether to name them Droves, or Herds of Monks) who for all that they do nothing, nor yet once intend to bear any show of Holiness, yet live they not only upon others, but also riot lavishly of other folks labours.  

M. harding.  

* But S. Augustine calleth it worse than Idleness.  We do not maintain, that a Monk should live idly. But we reprove you for accounting the Service of God Idleness. Neither is that the thing only which ye can allege in Defence of that your Brethren have done to Monasteries in the Countries where your Gospel proceedeth. For ye have removed not only such Monks as were proved idle, but all Monks generally, that would serve God according to that vow, which they made under the 
‡ As though Christ's Rule were lost, or were not sufficient.  approved rule of S. benedict's, S. Augustine, S. Francis, S. Dominicke, or of any other. You say, we have Droves and Herds of Monks, thereby signifying, they are beasts rather than men: Whereas S. Augustine calleth them servos Dei, the Servants of God, in that very work, which you allege.  
Sith that our Monks (I mean all religious men) served the Altar, and were appointed to Preach, Minister the Sacraments, and bestow their time in Prayer for their own infirmities, and for the Sins of the people: 
* Untruth, plain contrary to S. Augustine.  by the doctrine of S. Augustine, 
De opere Monachor. Cap. ar.  they are not bound to labour, as they, who for so wing spiritual things to the behoof of others, may reap their temporal things to their own necessary sustenance.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Monks, ye say, be God's Servants: and Monks life is the Service of God. And herein ye use such earnest talk, 
August. De Opere Monachor. Ca 12.  as though, if the whole generation of Monks were removed, God should sit without Service. In deed S. Augustine shewing us, 
August. De Sermone Domi. in Monte.  what good Service the Monks of his time did unto God, 
Eodem loco. Augustin. De Opere Monachor. Ca 22.  saith thus: Isti non Deo serviunt, sed suo ventri: These Monks serve not God: they serve their bellies. Again he saith, lactantia ●ò est periculosior, quò sub nomine ●eruitutis Dei decipit: Hypocrisy, or vountinge of Holiness is the more dangerous, for that it deceiveth us under the name of God's Service. Again he saith, Fallit dolosa imagine Sanctitatis: It deceiveth us by the deceitful countenance, or Image of Holinesse● Again, touching these Monks, he saith, Non apparet, utrùm ex proposito servitutis Dei venerint, an vitam inopem, & laboriosam fugientes, vacui pascì, & vestirl volverint: We cannot tell, whether they became Monks for purpose to serve God, or else being weary of their poor, 
Monks. God's Service.  and painful Life, were rather desirous to be feed, and clothed doing nothing. And therefore he calleth the almose, that they geatte, Sumptus lucrosae egestatis: 
Augustin. De Opere Mona●hor. Ca 28.  & Simulatae pretium Sanctitatis: The charges of gainful poverty: and the price of feigned Holiness. Again he saith, Venalem circumferunt Hypocrisim: They carry their Hypocrisy about to sale.  
S. Hilary speaking of the same kind of Holy People, 
Augustin. De Opere Monachor. Ca 31.  saith thus, Conuivia sub obtentu Religionis sumptuosa sectantur. 
Hilari. in psalmum. 52.  Apothecas suas inutili Religiosorum obsequio defendunt: de quibus Scriptum est, Comedentes domos viduarum. Etiansi Dominum se credant invocare, tamen audient, quod est in evangelio, Scimus quia peccatores Deus non audit: Under the colour of Holiness, they seek for dainty and costly far: They maintain their stoarehouses by the unprofitable service of Religious people: 
Matthae. 23.  of whom it is written, They devour up poor Widows houses. Although they think, they serve God, yet the same answer shallbe made them, that is written in the Gospel, 
john. 9  We know that God giveth no ear to Sinners. Upon these words of the Gospel, 
Luke. 19  Selle all, that thou haste, and give it to the poor, and come, and follow me, 
Matthae. 18.  Your very ordinary Gloze saith thus, Bene operando: non mendicando: Follow me in well doing: nor in begging.  
We grant, the Service of God may not rightly be called Idleness. But what if S. bernard saíe of your Monks, 
Bernardus in Cantica Cantl. Hieronym. ad Eustochium.  servi Christi, serviunt Antichristo: They pretend Christ's Service, and serve antichrist. For where did God ever require you to do such Service? S. Jerome saith of them, In statu seruili, & abiectionis esse abhorrent. Laborare recusant prae pigritia: Mendicare erubescunt validi: quia nihil daretur eyes: They are loath to be abjects, and in servile state. For Idleness they will not labour: And to beg they are asbamed. For, being valiant, and lusty people, noman would give them any thing. 
Augustin. De Opere Monachor. Ca 22.  Likewise saith S. Augustine, Tanquam Conseruatricem evangelii praedicant pigritiem: 
Augustin. eodem Capite.  They speak much of their Idleness, as if it were the Keep, and Castle of the Gospel. Again he faith, Contingit eyes, quoth in viduis iunioribus indisciplinatis cavendum Apostolus dicit: Simul & otiosae esse discunt: non solùm autem o tiosae, sed & curiosae, & verbosae, loquentes quae non oportet: The same thing happeneth unto them, that S. Paul speaketh of young Widows living out of order: They learn to be idle: and not only idle, but also courteous, and full of words, speaking such things, as are not meet. Thus ye see, M. harding, that this pretence, and colour of God's Service hath oftentimes of the ancient Fathers been called Idleness.  
Ye say, Monks now Serve the Aultare, and Minister Sacraments: and therefore are not bound to Bodily labour. This is a fair colour to shadow their Idleness. For who ever had Monks to Serve the Aultare: or gave them Authority to Minister Sacraments? What Doctor? What Father? What ancient Council? In old times it was not lawful for a Monk to be a Priest. S. Gregory saith, Nemo potest Ecclesiasticis Officijs deseruire, 
16. question. 1. Nemo.  & in Monastica Regula ordinatè persistere: No man can serve the Ecclesiastical Office, and orderly keep the Rule of Monkery. 
16. question 1. Monachus.  And S. Jerome saith, 
16 Quast. 1. Alia causa.  Monachus, non Docentis, sed Plangentis habet officium: A Monks office is, not to Preach, but to Mourn. 
Glossa.  Again he saith, Alia causa est Monachi, alia Clerici: Clerici Oues pascunt: Ego Pascor: The state of a Monk is one thing, and the state of a Priest is an other. priests Feed the Flock: I (being a Monk) must be fed. Whereupon the Gloze saith, Ego Pascor Sacramentis ipsorum: I am fed with the Sacraments of the Priests. Whereby it is evident, that the Monk himself had no Authority, to Minister Sacraments, no not so much as privately to himself. But, touching Bodily labour, S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronymus ad Rusticum: Et in vita Hilarionis.  This was holden as a Law among the Monks in Egypt, that who so would not labour, should not eat.  
And S. Augustine saith, 
Monks. Bodily labour.  as it is alleged in his name, Nihil Dei servis peius est otiositate. 
Augustin. ad Fratres in Eremo. Sermo. 1. Augustin. De Opere Monac●oar. Ca 23.  Operentur ergo in nomine Domini: Unto the Servants of God there is nothing worse than Idleness. Let them work therefore in the name of our Lord.  
Of such Idle Monks S. Augustine saith, Isti manus otiosas, & repositoria plena habere volunt: These Monks will have Idle hands, and full Cellars. A learned Father was wont to say, by the report of Socrates, A Monk, that laboureth not with his hands, may be resembled unto a Thief. S. bernard saith, Restat, ut sint in laboribus Daemonum, qui in laboribus hominum non fuerunt: They must needs be in the travails of Devils, 
Historia Tripartita, Lib. 8. Ca 1. Bernardus in Psalm. 72. Augustin. De Opere Monachor. Ca 28.  that were not in the travails of men.  
Of these S. Augustine saith, Diabolus tam multos Hypocritas sub habitu Monachorum usquequaque dispersit: Such a number of Hypocrites hath the Devil scattered abroad everywhere, under the colour of Monks.  
The first Suppressours of Monasteries within this Realm, in our memory, were two of your dearest friends, Cardinal Woulsee, & doctor Fisher, the Bishop of Rochester: 
Theodoretus, Lib. 4. Cap. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  either of them well warranted thereto by the Authority of the Pope. Long before that time, the Godly Learned Bishop Letoius overthrew, and burnt the Messalians Monasteries, and said they were Dens of thieves: and, as Theodoretus reporteth, chased the Wowes away from the Fold.  
Of late years, sundry of the Cardinals of Rome, amongst whom also was Cardinal Poole, being specially appointed in Commission by Pope Paulus 3. to view the disorders, and deformities of the Church, returned their answer in this sort: 
Concil. Tomo. 3. Con. Delectorum Cardinali. Pag. 822.  Alius abusus corrigendus est in Ordinibus Religiosorum: quod adeo multi deformati sunt, ut magno sint scandalo Saecularibus, exemplo'que plurimum noceant. Conuentuales ordines abolendos esse putamus omnes: An other Abuse there is to be Reform in the Orders of Monks, and Freers. For many of them are so vile, that they are a shame unto the Se●●lares: and with their example do much ill. As for Conuentual orders, we think it good, they be all abolished.  
This, M. harding, was the judgement of your own friends. And therefore ye have the less cause to be offended with the suppressing of Abbeys. For your own dear Catholic Fathers partly have suppressed them themselves, & partly have consented unto the same. 
Concil. Tom. 2. Pag. 1000 Operis Tripart. Li. 3. Cap. 3.  In the Book called Opus Tripartitum, joined unto the Council of Laterane, it is written thus: Totus ferè Mundus obloquitur, & Scandalizatur de tanta multitudine Religiosorum Pauperum, qui introierunt in Mundum: Well-near the whole world crieth against, and is offended for so great a multitude of begging Monks, and friars, that are entered into the World.  
Therefore was this Decree published in the Council of Laterane, 
Concil. Lateran. Sub Innocen. 3. Ca 13.  Ne nimia Religiosorum diversitas graven in Ecclesiam Dei offensionem inducat, firmiter prohibemus, ne quis de coetero Novam Religionem inveniat: lest over great diversity of Religious folk bring great offence into the Church of God, we do earnestly forbid, that from henceforth no man devise any New Religion. Damasus, speaking of the order of them, 
Dist 68 Chorepiscopi.  that were called Chorepiscopi, saith thus, unde iste Tertius Ordo processerit, ignoramus: & quod ratione caret, extirpare necesse est: From whence this third Order is come, we cannot tell. And the thing that wanteth reason, must needs be taken up by the roots.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 6.  
The Old Council at Rome decreed, 
Concil. Rom. ca 3.  that no man should come to the Service said by a Priest well known to keep a Concubine. These men let Concubines to farm to their Priests, and yet constrain men by force, 
A Priest keeping a Concubine  against their will, to hear their cursed paltry Service.  

M. harding.  

‡ Untruth. For it is easy to be found.  We find no such Canon in the old Roman Counsels. 
Dist 25. Ca Nullus.  Your allegations noted in the margin be false for the more part, as your Doctrine is. Yet find we that Nicolaus and Alexander Popes have willed no man to hear the Mass of that Priest, whom he knoweth undoubtedly to keep a Concubine. 
* Such wise men be the Proctors of filthiness.  But wise men in the Law think only that to be an undoubted knowledge, when either the judge hath by open sentence published such a man to keep a Concubine, or the fact itself is notorious.  

‡ Untruth, notorious, & manifest to the world. The B. of Argentine hath a Florene by the year of every Priest, that keepeth a Concubine: and if she bear a child, he hath four.  Whereas you say, we let Concubines out to farm to our Priests, it is meet for you to say it, because it is false and slanderous. 
* Untruth. Read the Answer.  Neither was ever any man, or at this day is driven to hear his Mass, who keepeth a Concubine. For if he will take upon him to prove any Priest to keep a Concubine, himself none being so infamous, as he may not stand in judgement, it is certain, he shall be heard. If he cannot prove it, then is not he out of doubt by order of Law, that this Priest keepeth a Concubine, and therefore he is bound, as other Christian people be, to hear his Mass. 
‡ Untruth. For Pope Hildebrande saith, Benedictio eorum vertitur in maledictionem. Concit. Roman. sub Nicolao. 1. Concil. To. 2. pa. 795. Anno, 880. Zacharias pp. in Epist. ad Bonifa. Dis. 40. Non nos, In Glossa.  Which is no sacrilege as your sacrilegious heart thinketh, and blasphemous tongue uttereth, but the blessed and holy sacrifice, which Christ made at his last Supper.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If it had pleased you, better to have perused your Books, ye mought soon have found these self same words in the Council of Rome, holden there under Pope Nicolas the First: Which, although it be not so old, as may be compared with the Ancient Father's Councils, yet it is elder than some parts, & branches of your New Religion. To like purpose writeth Pope Zacharie, Quis sapiens judicabit, eos esse Sacerdotes, qui nec à Fornicationibus abstinent? What wise man will reckon them to be Priests, that abstain not so much as from Fornication? If no wise man can judge them to be Priests, what man then is he, that will authorize them to Minister Sacraments?  
Now of the other side, M. harding, consider you the Common, and ordinary practice of your Church of Rome. first, touching the Pope himself, your Gloze saith, Facta Papae excusantur, ut Adulterium Jacob: The Pope's doings (or Aduouteries) are excused, as the advowtry of Jacob. And again, Communiter dicitur, quoed pro Simplici Fornicatione quis deponi non debet: cùm pauci sine illo vitio inveniantur: It is commonly said, that a man may not be deposed, or deprived for Simple Fornication: 
Dist. 81. Maximianus, In Gloss. Dist 32. Nullus.  For as much as few (Priests) be found without that fault.  
Again, whereas the words of the Decree are these, Nullus audiat Missam Presbyter, quem scit Concubinam indubitanter habere: Let noman hear the Mass of that ●neste, whom he undoubtedly knoweth to keep a Concubine, The Close upon the same saith thus, Hic Canon quandoque fuit latae Sententiae: Sed hodiè non est: This Decree in old times stood as a ruled case: but now is it not so. Ideo licet notoria sit Fornicatio, tamen non est propter eam abstinendum ab officijs Presbyterorum: And therefore, although the Fornication be notoriously known, yet may we not therefore refrain from the Service of the Priest.  
Hereunto very well agréethe the Gloze upon Othoes' Legantines: 
De Concubinis Clericor. removendis. Licet ad profligandum.  Quid ergo si Sacerdos mueniatur coire cum muliere? Respondeo: Adhuc dicitur occultum: nec propter hoc debet cum vitare in publico, nisi aliter Conuincatur: What if a man find the Priest in the m●uoure with a woman? I answer: All that notwithstanding, the fault is pr●●e. Neither may a man therefore aovid the priests Service, unless he be otherwise coacted.  
And again, in the same Gloze upon these words, Qui publicè detinet Concubinas: it is noted thus, 
Glossa in cundem titulum.  Tu dic Publicè, quando multitudini se patere non expavet. Secùs ergo, si secretè intra domum propriam, vel alienam detineat hanc Concubinam. Nam tunc poenam huius Constitutionis non incurret. 
A Priest keeping a Concubine  Dom us enim rem secretam, non aunt publicam denotat: By this word Openly, understand thou, If he be not afraid, lest the world espy him. Therefore it is otherwise, if he keep the same Concubine secretly, whether it be in his own house, or in some other man's. For than he is not within the danger of this Law. For a house betokeneth a thing to be Secret, and not open.  
By this favourable, and gentle Construction, unless the Priest keep his woman openly in the Marketplace, he is without all danger of Laws, and Canons: and we may not refrain to hear his Service.  
It is no Sacrilege, you say, but the Blessed, and Holy Sacrifice. Hereto I may answer with the words of S. Augustine: 
Augusti De Civitat. Li. 2. Ca 4.  Quae sunt Sacrilegia, si illa erant Sacra? Aut quae Inquinatio, si illa Lavatio? What is Sacrilege, if this be a Sacrifice? Or, what is staining, if this be washing? Verily your own Pope Hildebrande hereof writeth thus: 
Dist. 81. Si qui.  Imperamus vobis, ne eorum Officia, Orationes, & Cu●tus audiatis Quia Benedictio ●orum vertitur in Maledictionem, & Oratio in Peccatum: Testante Domino per Propheram, Maledicam Benedictionibus vestris. Qui vero huic Saluberrimo praecepto obedire noluerint, Idololatriae poenam incurrent: We command you, that you hear neither their Offices, nor thire Prayers, nor their Service. For their Blessing is turned into Cursing, and their Prayer into Sin: As the Lord himself witnesseth by the Prophet: I will curse your Blessings, saith the Lord. And who so ever will not obey this wholesome Commandment, he shall fall into the pain of Idolatry. judge ye now, M. harding, whether this be Sacrilege, as we say: or, as you say, a Blessed, and an Holy Sacrifice.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 7.  
The Old Canons of the Apostles command, that Bishop to be removed from his Office, which will both supply the place of a Civil Magistrate, and also of an Ecclesiastical person. These men for all that, both do, and will needs serve both places. Nay rather, the one office, which they ought chiefly to execute, they once touch not: and yet no body commandeth them to be displaced.  

M. harding.  
If we ought to stick at any one certain worldly business, 
‡ Untruth impudent above measure. For it was not unseemly for Christ's Apostles to be married.  which may seem unseemly for a Bishop or a Priest, as too base for his dignity, and too much hindrance to his vocation, undoubtedly marriage is of that sort. 
1. Cor. 7.  Whom may we better credit for this case, than S. Paul? 
* S. Paul speaketh thus, not only of Priests, but also of every private Christian man.  He that is without a wife (saith he) is careful for the things that be of our Lord, how he may please God. But he that is coupled with a wife, is careful about the things, which are of the world, and is divided.  
But with our fieashely Ministers, this business is not fleshly, and worldly at all, but altogether spiritual, because their spirit is wholly occupied therein.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Christ thought so little hindrance to be in Marriage towards the Preaching of the Gospel, 
Ambro. 2. Cor. 11.  that of his twelve Apostles he chose eleven, that were married. So S. Ambrose saith, as it is alleged before: Apostoli omnes, exceptis johann, & Paulo, Vxores habuerunt: All the Apostles had Wines, saving only S. john, and S. Paul.  
But ye say, With our fleshly Ministers▪ this business is not fleshly, but altogether Spiritual: because: their Spirit is wholly occupied therein. It pitieth me, M. harding, to see you so vainly to be stowe your Spiritual Cogitations. Matrimony is God's ordinance. 
Matrimony chaste, and pure.  God never ordained Man to live in villainy, and filthiness. S. Paul saith, 
Hebrae. 13.  Matrimony is honourable in all men (as well in Priests, as in others) and the bed undefiled. But adulterers, and fornicators the Lord himself will judge. 
Roman. 8.  And again, writing unto the Married people of Rome, he saith, Vos non estis in Carne, said in Spiritu: You are not in the Flesh, but in the Spirit. They were Married, and lived in the Laws of Marriage: Yet S. Paul saith, They were not in the Flesh, but in the Spirit.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Bono Coniugali. Ca 11 Origen. in Epist. ad Roma. Ca▪ 12.  Sancta sunt etiam Corpora Coniugatorum, Fidem sibi, & Domino seruantium: The Bodies of married people, keeping faith both to themselves, did to the Lord, ●●e Clean, and Holy. Origen saith, Non solum virgins, aut Contine●tes, offerunt Copora sua Hostiam Sanctam: Not only Virgins, or others that live in Single Life (but also Married folks) offer up their Bodies a Holy Sacrifice. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom ad Hebrae. Hom. 57  Sanctificationem Paulus vocat Pudicitiam, & Temperantiam Coniugalem: The honest Chastity, and Temperance, that is between Man, and Wife, S. Paul calleth Holiness. And again, Carent Culpa Nuptiae, nec à Virtute quicquam prohibent● Marriage is void of fault: and is no hindrance unto virtue.  
Hereof we have spoken before more at large. But touching the Chaste life of your Spiritual clergy, M. harding, as sundry your own friends have recorded, and as the whole world is well able to judge, it is nothing else, but a Spiritual filthiness.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 8.  
The Old Council of Gangra commandeth, that none should make such difference between an Unmarried Priest, and a Married Priest, as to think the one more holy, than the other for Single Life's sake. These men put such a difference between them, that they straight way think all their Holy Service to be defiled, if it be done by a good, and honest man, that hath a Wife.  

M. harding.  
It was not for your purpose, Sirs, to use true dealing, and to allege the words as they are in that old Council. For they speak of an 
* Untruth, fond, and peeui●he. For this word, External, is not once named in all that Council.  external Sacrifice, 
‡ The Council of Gangra never once named the Mass.  which the Church calleth the Mass. The same it behoved you to dissemble, 
C●●. 4.  lest ye bewrayed your cause. The words be these: If any man make a difference of a Priest, who hath been married, is though when he sacrificeth, a man might not communicate with his oblation, be he accursed. Those fathers speak evidently of a Priest, who hath sometime been married, that is to say, before his priesthood. 
* Untruth so impudent, that I marvel, M. harding can report it without blussinge. Chrysost. ad Hebrae. Homil. 17.  For after priesthood, it was never beard sithence the time of Christ, that any Priest might marry by the Law either of the Greek, or of the Latin Church. We therefore condemn the marriages of Priests, which be made after the taking of holy orders, and say, that he is no good and honest man, but an incestuous adulterer, that marrieth afterward.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
To answer all your trifles, M. harding, it were too long. We refuse not the names of Oblation, or Sacrifice. We know, that the Holy Ministration is Commonly so called by the Ancient Fathers: For that, as Chrysostom saith, it is the Memory, the Remembrance, the Samplare, the Token of that one Sacrifice, that Christ once offered in his Body upon the Cross. 
Hoc Sacrificium exemplarilliusest. Magis Recordationem Sacrifici● operamu●.  How be it, the reason hereof, that ye would seem to wrest out of the Greek word, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, is very simple, and bewrayeth in you, either want of skill, or great corruption. For, being learned in the Greek tongue, ye must needs know, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth not a Sacrifice, 
Marriage in Priesthood.  but a ministery, or public Service. Plutarch saith thus, Lictores, quasi Litores dicebantur, quoed essent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hereby it appeareth, 
Plutarch in Romulo. Alexander ab Alexandro. Pachymeres: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Roman 13. Actor. 13. Chrysost in Acta Homil. 27.  that the Common Hangman of the City was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and his office 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Which, I trow, M. harding, ye would not have to be called a Sacrificer, & a Sacrifice. Pachymeres, in his Annotations upon Dionysius. saith thus: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, appellat Diaconos, aut eos, qui nunc Hypodiaconi appellantur: He calls them, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that are called Deacons, or Subdeacons, S. Paul, speaking of Kings, & Civil Princes, saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, aut Ministri Dei sun● I reckon ye will not say, that either Deacons, or Subdeacons, or Kings, or Princes had Authority to Minister the Holy Communion, or, as you say, to offer up the Daily Sacrifice. Where as S. Luke saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Ministrantibus illis; Chrysostom demandeth this question, Quid est Ministrantibus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He answereth, Praedicantibus. Whereby it appeareth, that the Apostles sacrificing, was their preaching. It had been over much vanity, to note theis● things, had not your vain quarrel given the occasion. Certainly there is no mention in the said Council of Gangra either of your Mass, or of your External Sacrifice.  
After Priesthood, ye say, it was never heard sithence the time of Christ, that any Priest might Marry by the Law, either of the Greek, or of the Latin Church. This warrant were undoubtedly true, if every your word were a Gospel. But what if your own Gloze, that is to say, the very Ground, & mother of your Divinity, stand against you, & say, Ye warrant unwisely, or, if that mislike you, unadvisedly, ye know not what? Verily, upon the Pope's own Decrees ye shall find it noted thus: 
Dist 31. Aliter: In Glossa. Nicephorus, Li. 10. a. 10. Nicephor. Li. 9 Ca 17.  Multi ex hac Litera dixerunt● qu●d Orientales possunt contrahere in Sacris Ordinibus? Of these words many have gathered, that the priests of the east Church may marry, being within Holy Orders. Nicephorus saith, that Eupsychius, being a Priest at Cesaria in Cappadocia married a Wife a little before that he was Martyred. The like he seemeth to write of Apollinaris the Elder, that being a Priest, Married a Wife at Laodicea.  
In the Council holden at Ancyra there is a Canon written thus, Diaconi, quicunque ordinantur, 
Concil. Ancyranum. Canon. 9  si in ipsa Ordinatione protestati sunt, & dixerunt, velle se coniugio copulari, quia sic manner non possunt, high, si postmodùm uxores duxerint, in Ministerio maneant, proptereà qu●d ●is Episcopus licentiam dederit: Deacons, that receive orders, if at the time of their admission, they make protestation, and say, they willbe married, for that they cannot otherwise continue, if they afterward Marry, let them remain in the Minist●●●: for that the Bishop hath already dispensed with them.  
Chrysostom, 
Chrys. in Epist 1. ad Tim. Hom. 〈◊〉.  speaking of the Marriage of Bishops, saith thus, Quamuis Nup●ae plurimum difficultatis in se habeant, ita tamen Assumi possunt, ut perfectiori vit●●●●pedimento non sint: Notwithstanding Marriage have in it much trouble, yet so it may be Taken, that it shallbe no hindrance to perfit life. He saith, Marriage may be Taken, or chosen: 
Erasmus Contra Bedam. Pag. 197. Cornel Agrippa contra Lovanien. Artic. 18 Dist. 8 4 Ci●n in prae●ertio. In Glo●●a. Cat●●n in 〈◊〉.  And he speaketh namely of the Marriage of Priests, & Bishops.  
Erasmus saith, The Priests of the Greek Church this day, notwithstanding their Orders, Marry Wives. The like writeth Cornelius Agrippa against the lovanians. Your own Gloze upon y● Decrees▪ as I have alleged before, noteth thus, Dicunt qu●d olim Sacerdotes poterant contrahere, ante Siricium: They say, that in old times, before Pope Siricius, it was Lawful for Priests, to contract Matrimony.  
Likewise Cardinal Cai●tane saith, Nec ratione, nec Authoritate probari potest, qu●d, absolute loquendo, Sacerdos peccet, contrahendo Matrimonium: It cannot be proved, neither by Reason, nor by Authority, speaking absolutely, that a Priest offendeth God in Marking a Wife. So likewise saith Anselmus in a Dialogue bitwéene the Master, and the Scholare, touching these matters: Defideramus certifica●i tua Sotione super Vulgari in toto orb quaestione, 
Anselm. In Dialog. Inquisitione Prima.  quae ab omnibus pené quotidié ventilatur, & adhuc lis indiscussa celatur, Scilicer, An liceat Presbyteris, post acceptum ordinem Vxores ducere: We are desirous by your Answer to be certified, about this Common question, that is now tossed through the world, and as yet lieth undiscussed, I mean, whether a Priest, being within Orders, may Marry a Wife. Hereby it appeareth, that in the time of Anselmus, which was above a thousand years after Christ, this matter lay in question, and was not yet discussed.  
If ye knew these things before, M. harding, ye were to blame, to dissemble them: if ye knew them not, ye were to blame to control them. I doubt not, but it may appear by these few, that since the time of Christ's Resurrection, sundry Priests, being within Holy Orders, have married Wives: and that, not only in the Greek Church, but also in the Church of Rome.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 9  
The Ancient Emperor justinian commanded, 
In Novel. Constit. 123.  that in the Holy Administration, all things should be pronounced with a clear, loud, & treatable voice, that the people might receive some fruit thereby. These men, lest the people should understand them, numble up all their Service, not only with a drowned, & hollow voice, but also in a strange, and Barbarous tongue.  

M. harding.  
justinian the Emperor willeth prayers at the holy oblation, (which these Defenders here translate administration, as being ashamed of their own Authore, because they hold 
* Untruth, fond, and peevish For justinian speaketh not of any Sacrifice of the Mass.  against the sacrifice of the Mass) to be made not in silence, but with an audible voice. Not meaning as though prayers made in silence were unfruitful to the people, as these men would make us believe. And therefore they corrupt his words, as what thing do they not corrupt, that cometh under their hands? They say justinian made that Law, Vt fructus ex ea re aliquis ad populum redire posset, that some fruit might come thereof to the people, 
In novel. Constitut. ●3.  as who should say, 
‡ Untruth. For S. Augustine saith, Quid prodest locutionis integritas, quam non sequitur intellectus audientis.  no fruit were like to come, if prayer were made in silence. But what saith justinian? His words be, Quó maiore exinde devotione in depromendis Domini Dei laudibus audientium animi efferantur. To th'intent the minds of the hearers may thereby with the more devotion be lifted up in setting forth the praises of our Lord God. He saith, that the loud voice helpeth to more devotion, he saith not, to some fruit, but, with more devotion 
‡ Untruth, notorious, & contrary to their own principal position, Ignorance is the Mother of devotion.  Some fruit is always had even by secret prayer, and more fruit sometime, then by loud prayer.  
Two faults then are committed, or rather two lies made in justinian's words: one, that for oblation, they turned administration, which falsehood M. jewel useth in his printed Sermon, and in his replies to M. D. Cole. Whether he be also guilty of this? another fault is, that for more devotion, they put some fruit. The third lie is, in that they say, we do whisper all our Service, so is the Latin, albeit this good Lady liketh better the term of mumblinge. 
* Untruth For M Hard. own Councils express it by these words, Insusurrare, and Murmurare.  I ween few who have the sense of hearing▪ will say with them, that the singing of Psalms, Hymns, Epistle, Gospel, Grailes, Offertories, Preface▪ and such like Service used in the Catholic Church, is whispering, or numblinge. The fourth lie is, where they say, we do it so, lest the people should understand us. 
† Untruth, and a gloze contrary both to the text, and also to the continual practice of the Church of Graecia.  We wish, that all the people understood all our prayers. But we think it not convenient, in a common profane tongue, to utter high mysteries Therefore we wish, they would learn the 
* Mystical tongue. A Mystical folly of all follies.  mystical tongue, and gladly do we teach their children the same. S. Dionyse the Areopagite scholar to S. Paul, teacheth Timothe, and in him all us, Communicare ea quae vim perficiendi habent, cum ijs, qui perficiunt, to communicate those things, which have power to make men perfit, with them, who make men perfit: ‡ that is to say, to publish priestly office of Consecration, (for nothing maketh us more perfit) among them only, who are Priests, and not among others.  
last of all the fifth lie is to say, 
Prayer in a strange to tongue.  that we pronounce our service, and our mysteries in a barbarous tongue. 
* A 〈◊〉 For S. Paul saith. The tongue is Barbarous, that is not known.  As though the Latin tongue were barbarous, and not rather every vulgar tongue. That tongue is most barbarous, which is most used of the vulgar sort, most private? most unknown in respect of all 
‡ A solemn Decree without sense.  When England cometh to have a service of their own, a tongue of their own in Churches, and hath a Church of their own beside the whole, then have they lost their part with the Catholic Church, whereunto God restore it again.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O M. Harding, we corrupt not such things, as come under our hands. The world seethe, that is your ordinary, and peculiar practice: It is not ours. ye dub us both here, and elsewhere, with your lies upon lies. Such is the Civility, and Courtesy of your speech. Yet hitherto we have not redubbed you with any one lie. Sobriety, and modesty rather becometh them, that speak of God.  
first, 
justinian. Impe. Authen. Constit. 123: We command all Bishops, and Priests to Minister the Holy Oblation. etc. not under silence, but with a loud voice, etc. that the hearts of the Hearers may be stirred to more devotion, etc.  ye say, We have corrupted justinian's words. And yet, ye know, we alleged only justinian's meaning, and otherwise not one of all his words. Ye say, justinian meant not, as though prayers made i● silence were unfruitful to the people. For some Fruit, ye say, there is all ways had even by secret, and unknown Prayer: But what fruit, or how much, or how ye know it, or can assuere it, ye spare to tell us. Yet S. Augustine saith, Quid prodest locutionis integritas, quam non sequitur intellectus audientis? Cùmloquendi omninò nulla fit causa, si, quod loquimur, non intelligunt, propter quos, ut intelligant, loquimur: What profit is there in speech, be it never so perfit, if the understanding of the hearer cannot attain it? For there is no cause, why we should speak at all, if they understand not, what we speak, for whoes sake we speak, that they may understand us. Again he saith, Mens mea sine fructu est: Hoc ait, quando id, quod dicitur, non intelligitur: My mind is without fruit: This the Apostle S. Paul saith, when the thing, that is spoken, it not perceived. And again, Si intellectum mens removeas, nemo aedificatur audiendo, quod non intelligit: Set apart the understanding of the Mind: And noman hath fruit, or profit of that thing, that he perceiveth not. Likewise again he saith, Quid opus est iubilare, & non intelligere iubilationem: ut Vox nostra sola iubilet, 
Augu. De Doctrina Christiana, Lib. 4. Ca 10.  & Cor non iubilet? Sonus enim Cordis intellectus est: What needeth us to sing, if we understand not, what we sing: to sing with our voice, and not with our Harte? For Understanding is the sound, or voice of the Heart.  
These words, 
August. De Trinitate. Li. 14. Ca 16. 1. Cor. 14.  Whisperinge, and Mumblinge, mislike you much. Yet your own friends, entreating hereof, have often used the same words. In your late Council of Colaine it is written thus, Vt Presbyteri Preces non tantùm o'er Murmurent, 
August in Genesia ad Literam. Lib. 11. Cap. 8. Aug. in Psal 59 Concil. Colonien. Cap. 5. Anno. 1536 Regino. 2. Concilio Nannet●●.  sed etiam cord Persoluant nunquam à manibus eorum Liber Legis, hoc est, Biblia deponatur: That the Priests not only Mumble up their Prayers, but also pronovace them from their hearts, Let the Book of the Law, that is to say, the Bible, never be said from their hands. Likewise Regino reporteth the words of the Council of Nantes, Ridiculum est, muris, aut parietibus Infusurrare ea, quae ad populum pertinent: It is a preushe thing, to whisper those things to the walls, that pertei●e unto the people.  
notwithstanding, whether it be Whisperinge, or Mumblinge, or by what so ever name else it shall please you to call it, that good emperors Commandment, & meaning was, that ye should so utter all things in the Congregation, distinctly, 
Authen. Constitu 123. Augu. in Psal. 18.  and Plainly, with loud, and Open Voice, that the people might understand you, and answer, Amen. Therefore S. Augustine saith, Nos, qui in Ecclesia Divina eloquia cantare didicimus, simul etiam instare debemus, esse quod Scriptum est, Beatus populus, qui intelligit iubilationem. Proinde, Charissimi, quod Consona voce cantavimus, sereno etiam cord nosse, & tenere debemus: We, that have learned to sing in the Church the Heavenly words of God, must also endeavour to be that thing, that is written, Blessed is the people, that understandeth, what they sing. Therefore dearly beloved, that we have song together with iuneable voice, we ought also to know, and see with pure heart. S. Ambrose, declaring the Ecclesiastical order of his time, 
Ambro. Hexamer. Li. 3. Cap. 5.  saith thus, Responsorijs Psalmorum, Cantu Virorum, Mulierum, Virginum, Paruulorum, consonus undarum fragor resultat: With the answearinge of Psalms, and with the singing together of men, Women, Maids, and little Children, the Church soundeth, as if it were the dasshinge of the Sea.  
To like purpose Leo saith, 
Leo, De leiunio Septimi Mensis, Sermo. 3.  Totius Ecclesiae una est Oratio, & una Confessio: The whole Church hath one Prayer, and one Confession.  
That ye allege out of Dionysius, is vain, and Childish, as is the rest of your talk, and quite contrary to the Authors mind, and therefore not worthy to be answered. For Dionysius saith not, as you have imagined, M. Harding, that the Priest should talk alone in his Mystical unknown Tongue, as a ianglinge Cymbal without sense: but rather telleth you, that, by his order, the Priest, and the whole People should sing together. These be his words, Percipiens ipse, 
Dionysius, Ca 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  & alijs tradens Divinam Communionem, postremò desinit in Gratiarum actionem, unà cum tota Ecclesiae multitudine: The Priest both receiving himself the Holy Communion, and also delivering the same unto others, last all endeth with thanks giving, together with all the whole multitude, or Company of the Church.  
Ye say, We wish the people would learn the Mystical Latin tongue: and gladly do we teach their Children the same. Ye say, The Mystical Latin tongue. O vain man, and more vain, than vanity itself: Why seek you so fondly to deceive God's people? Who ever taught you these kinds of Mysteries? what Scripture? what Council? what doctor? what Father? How know you, that the Latin tongue, that every Child may so commonly, and so easily understand, should be so Mystical? It were a great Mystery, to reach the bottom of your Mysteries. S. Paul calleth you, 
1. Cor. 4.  not the Hiders, or Couchers, but the Dispenser's, and Stewards of God's Mysteries. Your Mystical policy is, to lead God's people through Mist, and Darkness. Ye wish, the people would learn the Latin tongue, which you call Mystical. No doubt, a worthy, and a learned wish. Ye might as good cheap, & as well have wished, that all the whole people, of all Country, would learn to speak Greek, & Hebrew. But your meaning is, the until all the Plowmennes, and Artificers, and Labourers of the World be able to understand, and to speak your Mystical Latin tongue, they may not in any wise he allowed, to understand any parcel of their Prayers.  
Lactantius, 
Lactan. Lib. 5. Ca 20.  speaking of the subtle practices, & policies of the Heathens, saith thus, Hinc Fida Silentia instituta sunt ab hominibus callidis: ut nesciret populus, quid coleret: Therefore trusty silence, and secrecy was appointed by subtle, and false faitours: that the people (still being blind) should never know, what they worshipped.  
This is not the Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven: 
Matth. 13. 2. Thess. 2. Apoc. 17.  It is rather the Mystery of iniquity: The same Mystery, y● S. john mentioneth in his Revelations: In Front eius Nomen scriptum est, Mysterium: Babylon Magna, Mater Abominationun, & Fornicationum Terrae: A Name was written in her Forehead, a Mystery: Great Babylon, the Mother of the Abominations, and of the Fornications of the Each. Of these Holy Mysteries, your Latin tongue, as ye have used it, may well, and justly be called Mystical.  
S. Jerome saith of your Fathers in Old time, 
Hieron. in Epist. ad ●phes. Cap. 5. Hieronymus ad Theodoram.  De Domo Dei Secnam fecere Populorum: Of the House of God they have mode a stage play of the people. And speaking of the Valentinian Heretics he saith, Barbaro simplices quosque terrent sono, ut, quod non intelligunt, plùs mirentur: With a Barbarous unknown sound of words the● fear the simple, that, what so ever they understand not, they may the more esteem, and have in reverence.  
But the Latin tongue, ye say, is not Barbarous: and therein, as your wont is, ye have noted a wonderful great Lie in our Apology. Yet unto S. Paul, that tongue seemeth Barbarous, that is unknown unto the hearer. Thus he saith, Nisi sciero vim vocis, 
1. Cor. 4.  ero illi, qui loquitur, Barbarus: & ille, qui loquitur, mihi Barbarus: unless I understand the power, or meaning of the words, I shallbe Barbarous to him, that speaketh: and he that speaketh (in what tongue so ever he speak) shallbe Barbarous unto me. 
Artic. 3. Divi. 3. Ludovi. vives De Traden. Disciplinis, Lib. 3. Fol. 97.  Hereof I had occasion to say somewhat in my Former Reply. S. Augustine saith, Mallet quisque cum Cane suo versari, quàm cum homine ignotae linguae: Any man would rather dwell with his Dog, then with a man of an unknown tongue.  
To conclude, ye say, When England cometh to have a Service of their own, and a Tongue of their own in Churches, then have they lost their part with the Catholic Church. Here, M. harding, a little more reason would have given some credit to your words. For, as touching the Public Service of the Church, I beseech you, even in your own time of Barbarous blindness, what Service had the Church of England, but peculiar, and Special to herself? touching the variety of Tongues S. Augustine saith, 
Augusti. Aduer. judeos, Oratio. 4.  Astitit Regina à dextris tuis in vestitu deaurato, circundata varietate. Vbi significatur Linguarum varietas in omnibus Gentibus: quarum tamen una est intùs, & Simplex Fides: The Queen stood at thy right hand, apparesled in Cloth of Gold, adorned with variety. Here by is Signified the Diversity of Tongues in all Nations: The Faith whereof, that lieth within, is one, and simple. Likewise again he saith, 
Aug. in Psal. 44.  Vestius Reginae huius quis est? Et pretiosus, & varius est: Sacramenta Doctrinae in Linguis omnibus varijs. Alia Lingua Aphricana: alia Syra: alia Graeca: alia Hebraea: alia illa, & illa. Faciunt istae Linguae varietatem vestis Reginae huius. Quomodò autem omnis varietas vestis in unitate concordat, sic & omnes Linguae ad unam Fidem, In vest varietas sit: scissura non sit. Ecce varietatem intelleximus de Diversitate Linguarum: & Vestem intelleximus propter unitatem: What is this Queen's apparel? It is precious, and full of variety: The Mysteries of Doctrine in all sundry Tongues. There is one Tongue of Aphrica: an other of Syria: an other Greek: an other Hebrew: an other this, an other that. These Tongues make up the variety of the Queen's apparel. But as all the variety of colours in the apparel agreeth in Unity: even so all Tongues agree in one Faith. Let there be Variety in the Apparel: But rent, or cut there may not be. Behold, by the Variety, we understand thee Diversity of Tongues: and by the Apparel, we understand thee Unity (of the Church). 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 6.  Again he saith, Distant inter se Linguae: Sed Linguarum distantiae non sunt schismata: Tongues are divided one from an other: But the Division of Tongues is no Schism, or Division in Religion.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 10.  
The old Council at Carthage commanded that nothing should be read in Christ's Congregation, but the Canonical Scriptures: these men read such things in their Churches, 
Concil. Cartha. 3.  as themselves know for a Truth to be stark Lies, and fond Fables.  

M. harding.  
A man were better, I assure thee, good Reader, to make two new Books, then to correct one so full of lies and falsefied places, 
Concil. Cartha. 3. c. 47.  as this Apology is. 
‡ Untruth. For, if this Old Council be falsified, it was falsified twelve hundred years ago, in the Council of Hippo.  This old Council of Carthage is newly falsified by our new clergy. The words of the Council are these. Palcuit, ut praeter scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine Divinarum Scripturatum: 
Scriptures only to be read in Churches  It hath seemed good unto us, that besides the Canonical Scriptures, nothing be read in the Church under the name of the holy Scriptures. They leaving out these four words, sub nomine Divinarum Scripturarum, Under the name of Divine Scriptures, would bear men in hand, the Council willed nothing to be read in the Church, besides the holy Scriptures. Are not these trusty men to whom ye may commit the charge of your souls for your faith and salvation?  
It followeth in the same decree, Liceat etiam Legi passiones Martyrum, cùm anniversarij dies celebrantur: Let it be lawful also for the Martyrdoms of Martyrs to be read, when their yearly festes are kept. And yet dare they not only to say, nothing must be read besides the Scriptures, but also to allege that very place for that special lie, which saith the contrary. Look in the Book thyself good reader, and see how falsely they handle so holy matters. 
* Untruth. For it is confessed by the best of M. Har. own side.  another lie is, when they say, we read those things in the Church, which ourselves know to be stark lies, and fund fables. When they cannot themselves show that we have any such, it is a vain lying rhetoric to say, we doubt not of it, or know it ourselves for a truth. I wonder not if they blush not in belieng us, who have belied so many Scriptures, Counsels, and fathers.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It standeth well with your Truth, M. harding, so often to charge us with Lies, & falsehood. I trust it will appear, ye had no great cause, to keep so great revel upon so poor a Conquest. In deed these words be not found in the third Council of Carthage. Yet are they found in the Council of Hippo, which is the Abbridgement of the third Council of Carthage, as it appeareth by the Title of the same: Concilij Hipponensis Abbreviationes factae in concilio carthaginensi Tertio.  
The words of the Council of Hippo, and, for so much, also of the third Council of Carthage, 
Concil. Hippo, Cap. 38.  be these: Scripturae Canonicae in Ecclesia legendae quae sunt: & praeter quas alia non legantur: The Scriptures Canonical, which are to read in the Church: and besides which nothing else may be read. Here have you, M. harding, the plain words of the Council of Hippo, abberidged out of the third Council of Carthage, That nothing may be read in the Church, but only the Canonical Scriptures. judge you therefore, how just cause ye had, so unadvisedly, for I vate not to say, so unlearnedly, to charge the Apology with Lies, and falsehood.  
Hereto may we add the like Decree of the Council holden at Laodicea: Sabbatjs evangelia cum alijs Scripturis legenda esse censemus: 
Concil. Laodice. Cap. 16.  We agree that the Gospel, with others Scriptures, be read upon the Saboth day. If these words seem not sufficient, 
Concil. Laodice. Cap. 59  it followeth further in the same Council, Non oportet Libros, qui sunt extra Canonem, legere, nisi solos Canonicos Veteris, & Novi Testamenti: We may not read any Books, that be without the Canon, but only the Canonical Books of the Old, and New Testament.  
To like effect Chrysostom saith, 
Chrys. in Matth. Homi 38.  Ideò Christus meusas nummulariorum evertit: Significans quòd in Templo Dei non debent esse nummi, nisi Spirituales, id est, qui Dei imaginem habent: Therefore Christ overthrew the Exchangers bakes: Meaning thereby, that there may be no Come in the Church, but only Spiritual, that is to say, 
Chryso. in Acta, Homil. 19  that beareth the Image of God. Again he saith, Lectorum officium erat, in Ecclesia, Sacra Legere ex Scriptis, vel Prophetarum, vel Apostolorum: It was the Readers office, to pronounce holy things unto the people, out of either the Apostles, or Prophets.  
Erasmus saith, 
Erasin. in Hiero. de Eccle. Scriptarib. Efrem.  Apparet, non nisi Apostolicas Literas olim Legi solitas in Templis, aut certè Vitorum Apostolicae Authoritatis: It appeareth, that in old time, nothing was used to be read in the Churches, but only the Apostles writings: or at least the writings of such others, 
Scriptures only to be read in Churches  as were of Apostolical Authority. Likewise saith Abbas Ansigisus, reporting the Ecclesiastical Decrees of the French Kings, Lews, & Charles: In Templis tantùm Canonici Libri, id est, Sacrae Literae legantur: Let there he read in the Churches only the Canonical Books, 
Ansigisus, Lib. 1. Cap. 19 Impressus Parisijs Anna. 1550.  that is to say, the Holy Scriptures.  
another lie, Ye say, is this, when they say, we read those things in the Church, which ourselves know, to be stark lies, and fond Fables. For trial hereof, we shall not need to travail far. Your own Books, and Legends are prouse sufficient.  
Erasmus thereof saith thus, 
Erasin. in Annotation. in Hieronym. De Ecclesiasticus Scrip.  Hodiè quorumlibet somnia, imò mulietcularum Deliramenta leguntur inter divinas Scripturas: Now a days every fools Dreams, yea very we men's doctinge fancies are read with the Holy Scriptures.  
Likewise saith Polydore Vergil: Multorum Divorum vitas recitant, tametsi parùm ad Fidem Scriptas: 
Polydor. Vergil. in Oration Dominicam.  They read many Saints lives, although not written according to Truth. Ludovicus vives, writing of your Legenda Aurea, which was the Mother of all your devout Ecclesiastical stories, or Fables, saith thus, Nescio, cur Aurea dici debeat, cùm scripta sit ab homine ferrei oris, & plumbei Cordis, & plenissima sit impudentissimis Mendacijs: I see no cause, why it should be called thee Golden legend, seeing it was written by a man of an iron face, and a leaden heart, and is fraught full of most shameless lies. If ye knew not these things, M. harding, your friends will think, ye know nothing. Such Truths ye read, and publish devoutly, and solemnly in your Churches. Yet may we neither say, nor think, ye mock the people.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 1.  
But if there be any, that think, these above rehearsed Authorities be but weak and selender, because they were decreed by Emperors, & certain petite Bishops, and not by so full, & perfit Councils, taking pleasure rather in the Authority, and name of the Pope: let such a one know, that Pope julius doth evidently forbid, that a Priest in ministering the Communion, should dip the Bread in the Cup. These men contrary to Pope julius Decree, divide the Bread, and dip it in the wine.  

M. harding.  
Ye may be sure, many men think this your homely stuff not only weak and slender, but also corrupt, venomous, and loathsome. But now by like, ye will amend your fault. But how? Surely by going from very evil to as bad or worse, if ye can do worse, than hitherto ye have done. julius the Pope (say ye) doth evidently forbid, that a Priest in ministering the Communion, should dip the Bread in the Cup Now verily your former fault of lying is well amended. For where before ye best out, cast in, or changed some of those words, which ye pretend to allege, now ye make every whit new of your own. Where hath julius these word? I speak not of your false alleging of places in your Books margin. I forgive you the putting of Cum enim nemo, in stead of cum omne. These be small and slipper faulies, which if they were alone might be winked at in such slipper merchants, as ye are. But let us hear, what Pope julius saith. Alios quoque audivimus intinctan Eucharistian populis pro complemento communionis porrigere, We have heard also of others, who give to the people the eucharist dipped, or stiped, for making up of the Communion. It is to be understanded, that whereas Christ, gave the blessed Sacrament of the Aulier to his Apostles, he gave it under both kinds. And when the Priests in some countries, either for lack of wine at all times ready, either for some private fancy, used to dip or stipe the sacred body of our Lord under form of Bread in the consecrated blood, 
Communion under one kind.  and so to give it to the people: Pope julius findeth fault therewith, for that neither Christ ordained so, nor the Apostles left such order to the Church. So that julius meaneth nothing else, but to reprove and reform that use of dipping or stiping the one kind in the other in the Administration of the Communion unto the people. Read the place, who listeth, he shall find the same sense more largely uttered a little after.  
But what sense make these Defenders a God's name? They say, julius forebiddeth the Priest, ne dum peragit mysteria, panem immegat in Calicem, that in ministering the communion, (so the lady turneth) he should dip the Bread in the Cup. There is no such word in the wholde decree. julius nameth Eucharistiam: they call it Bread. julius hath, 
‡ A fond Vanity. For if he forbid the Priest to dip the Sacrament, and to deliver it, than he forebiddeth the Priest to dip the Sacrament.  intinctam porrigere populis, that no Priest ‡ give the Sacrament dipped to the people: they, leaving out, giving it to the people, say he forbade the Priest to dip it. They leave out also the chief cause of the whole, which is pro complemento communionis, for making up of the communion. For he for ebiddeth to give unto the people only the consecrated host dipped in the Chalice, as though it were the whole Communion, no less then if the Blood were given apart. These men (say they) contrary to the decree of Pope julius, divide the Bread, and dip it in the wine. We in the Mass break the host in three parts, not without 
* These Mystical Significations, be Mystical follies. Read the Answer.  signification of a Mystery: two we receive apart: the third we put into the Chalice, and receive it together with the blood. Whal have ye to say against this?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Every part hereof is largely answeard in my Former Reply to M. harding. True it is, the fault, that julius here findeth in Dipping, and Ministering the Sacrament, agreeth not fully with the present disorders of the Church of Rome. Yet notwithstanding, in condemning the one, he must needs condemn the other. Ye say, we leave out these words, Intinctam porrigunt Eucharistiam populis: They dip the Sacrament, and deliver the same unto the people. And again these words, Pro complemento Communionis: For the accomplishment of the Communion. The more matter we have left out, the more have we concealed your faults: and so much the more are you beholden to us. For what meant you, M. Harding, to mention any of all these words? What needed you to burden yourself with more Abuses, and so much to bewray your folly?  
julius saith, They dipped the Sacrament into the Cup, and delivered it unto the people: You dip the Sacrament, as they did: but unto the people ye give nothing. julius saith, They meant by dipping to make it a full, and a perfit Communion: Contrariwise, you defraud the people of the Holy Cup, and deliver them only the Half Communion, And therefore ye are much more blame worthy, then ever were they, whom julius reproved. For they offended only of Simplicity: and you of wilfulness.  
But touching the matter itself, the fault, that we find with you, and the fault, that julius found with others your Predecessors, is all one. You dip the Bread into the Cup: & so did they. They broke Christ's Institution: and so do you. And therefore julius said unto them, Hoc quàm sit Apostolicae, & evangelicae Doctrinae contrarium, & consuetudini Ecclesiasticae adversum, non difficilè ab ipso font Veritatis probatur, à quo ordinata ipsa Sacramentorum Mysteria processerunt: How far contrary this is to the Apostolical, and evangelical Doctrine, and to the Custom of the Church, it is easy to prove by the Fountain of the Truth, by whom the Mysteries of the Sacraments were ordained, and from whom they first proceeded.  
Ye think the matter well discharged, for that ye deliver not the Sacrament so dipped unto the people, but minister it only unto yourself. Here by the way, it were a matter of skill, to understand, by what Authority, either of scripture, or of Council, or of doctor, it may appear, that it is lawful for the Priest so to use and receive the Sacrament, 
Communion under One kind.  and unlawful for the people. If the people may not as safely, and as lawfully so receive the Sacrament, as may the Priest, wherefore then are these words written in your Mass Books, even in the Canon, & Secrets of your Mass? Haec Sacrosancta Commixtio Corporis, & Sanguinis Domini nostri jesu Christi fiat mihi, & omnibus sumentibus salus animae & Corporis, This Holy mingling of the Body, and Blood of our Lord jesus Christ, be unto me, and unto all, that receive it, the health of Soul and Body. Verily these words, Omnibus sumentibus, cannot by any shift possibly be expounded of One Only Priest, but must needs be extended unto the people.  
ye would feign tell us of certain special Mysteries, that ye have found out in the breaking of the Sacrament, 
Daniel. 2 Senten. Lib. 4. Dist. 12.  if ye wist, what they were. But ye are in case, as somm●time was Nabuchodonozor: Ye are not able well to tell us your own dream. Sammetime ye say, The Bread is broken: sommetime ye say, The Accidents remain alone by Miracle, and they are broken: Sommetime ye say, Christ's Immortal, and Impassable Body itself is Broken: Sommetime ye say, Our eyes be deceived, and nothing is broken.  
Again (ye say) the First piece signifieth the church travailing in the world: 
Durandus Li. 4. Cap. 53.  The second signifieth the Blessed Saints in Heaven: the third signifieth the Souls in Purgatory. 
De Conse. Dist. 2. Triforme.  But Pope Sergius, the Father of these fantastes, conveyeth his Mysteries an other way. For the first portion, saith he, signifieth Christ's Body after his Resurrection: The second, christes Body walking on Earth: The third, Christ's Body in the Grave. These, M. harding, be your Holy Significations, & Special Mysteries. With such follies, and Mystical vanities ye mock the world. In Old times the Bread was not broken, to busy men's heads with Significations, 
Artic. 11. Divi. 3. Augu. Epist. 59  but only to be delivered to the people: as in my Former Reply, I have declared more at large. S. Augustine saith, Panis benedicitur, & Sanctificatur, & ad distribuendum Comminuitur: The Bread is Blessed, and Sanctified, and broken into pieces, to the end it may be delivered.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 2.  
Pope Clement saith, It is not lawful for a Bishop to deal with Both Swords: For if thou wilt have both, saith he, thou shalt deceive both thee self, and those, that obey the. Now a days the Pope challengeth to himself Both Swords, and useth both. Wherefore it ought to seem less marvel, if that have followed, which Clement saith, that is, that he hath deceived both himself, and those, which have geeven ear unto him.  

M. harding.  
If these fellows had not sworn to bely all the world for maintenance of their new Gospel, they would at this time at least have made a true report of S. Clementes words. S. Clement speaketh not of two sword. The palace truly alleged hath thus: 
* These words are partly Clementes, partly S. Bernardes'.  Si mundialibus curis fueris occupatus, & teipsum decipies, & eos qui te audiunt. If thou be occupied in worldly cares, thou shalt both deceive thyself, and those that listen to thee. The author of this Apology, having spite at the Church, which is Christ's fold, and at the Pope, the head Shepherd, enuieing at his authority, forgeth a lie upon S. Clement, making him to say, Si utrunque habere vis, if thou wilt have both sword, thou shalt both deceive thyself, and those that obey thee. 
‡ Fond and child ●he. As though a Bishop may have the Tempord 〈◊〉, and execute a Temporal office, without worldly cates.  Whereas Clement speaketh no word of the two sword, but of worldly cares, where with what Bishop so ever is entangled, shall (as he saith) deceive both himself, and others that hearken to him. For which cause these Defenders being coupled with yoke fellows in pretenced wedlock, 
Both Sweerdes in one hand.  which state wrappeth a man in worldly cares, 
1. Cor. 7.  because such a one 
* What cares have they that keep Concubines?  careth for the things of the world, how to please his wife, and is divided, as S. Paul saith: it must needs follow, that having taken the office of superintendentes, and charge of Souls upon them. 
‡ Eleven of the twelve Apostles, and many Holy Fathers, and Bishops were Married: and yet deceived not etc.  they have deceived themselves, and daily do deceive so many as hear them, and follow their false Doctrine.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
O what a pleasant grace M. harding hath, to talk of Lies? A man would think, it were some good part of his study. In this place two sundry Authorities, the one of Clemens, the other of S. bernard, I know not, by what error, were joined in one, and both alleged, and set forth under the name only of Clements. I grant, There was herein an oversight: But Lie, or Falshedde there was none.  
The words of Clemens are, 
Bernard. De Consideration. Li. 2.  as you report them. The words of S. bernard, written unto Pope Eugenius, are these: Planum est, Apostolis interdici Dominatum. I ergo tu, & tibi vsurpate aude, aut Dominans Apostolatum: aut Apostolus Dominatum. Planè ab alterurto prohiberis. Si utrunque similiter habere velis, perdes utrunque: It is plain, that unto the Apostles of Christ, Lordship, or Temporal princehood is forbidden. Go thou thy way therefore (thus he saith to the Pope) and dare thou to usurp, either the Apostleship, being a Lord: or a Lordship, being an Apostle. From one of them undoubtedly thou art forbidden. If thou wilt indifferently have both, thou wilt lose both.  
Of such, S. 
Hieronym. in Sophoniam. Ca 1.  Jerome writeth thus, Militantes Christo, obligant se negotijs Saecularibus, & eandem imaginem offerunt Deo, & Caesari: Being the Soldiers of Christ, they bind themselves to worldly affairs, and offer up one Image to God, and Caesar. In the Canons of the Apostles it is written thus, 
Canon. Aposto. Canon. 80. Mathae. 10.  Non oportet Episcopum, aut Presbyterum, se Publicis Administrationibus immittere: sed vacare, & commodum se praebere usibus Ecclesiasticis. Nemo enim potest duobus Dominis servire: A Bishop, or a Priest may not entangle himself with worldly Offices: but be at rest, and show himself meet for the use of the Church. For noman can serve two Masters. Yet the Pope this day claimeth the right of Both Swords, 
De Maiorita. & Obedient. unam Sanctam. Paralipomena Vispergensis.  not only of the Spiritual, but also of the Temporal. And Pope Bonifacius 8. in the Great jubilee, and in the open sight of the world, when he had one day showed himself in his Pontificalibus, appareled in Procession as a Bishop, the next day he put upon him the emperors Robes of Majesty, & had the Imperial Crown upon his head, and the Sw●rde naked. and glittering borne before him.  
As for Pope Clemens, his Canon is easily shifted by a pretty Proviso. For thus saith your Gloze touching the same, 
Extra de jure iurando, Etsi Christus. In Glossa.  cessant causa, cessat effectus. Verbi causa, Prohibetur, ne Presbyteri gerant tutelas, hac causa, ut meliùs vacent Divinis Officiis. Haec causa finalis est. unde, cessant hac causa, cessat effectus. unde, si non vacent Divinis Officiis, poterunt gerere tutelas: The cause ending, the Effect endeth too. For example: The Law commandeth, that a Priest shall not be charged with the Wardeship of a Child in his nonage. The cause hereof is this, that he may the better apply his Divine Service. This is the Final Cause. This cause removed, the Effect giveth place. Therefore if the Priest follow not his Divine Service, than he may have the Wardeship of a Child. Even so, if the Pope do not the Office of a Bishop, then may he be a Temporal Prince. But by these means it cometh to pass, even as clemens saith, He deceiveth both himself, and also them that hear him.  
touching this vain objection of the charge, 
Part. 5. Cap. 3. Division. 7. And Part. 2. Cap. 8. Division. 2.  and cares of Marriage, it is fully answered before, in a place more convenient.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 3.  
Pope Leo saith, Upon one day it is lawful to say but one Mass in one Church: These men say daily in one Church commonly ten Masses, twenty, thirty, yea often times more. So that the poor gafer on can scant tell which way he were best to turn himself. Pope Gelasius saith, It is a wicked deed, and subject to Sacrilege in any man, to divide the Communion, and, when he hath received one Kind, to abstain from the other. These men, contrary to God's Word, and contrary to Pope Gelasius, command, that one Kind only of the Holy Communion be geeven the people: and by so doing, they make their priests guilty of Sacrilege.  

M. harding.  

‡ A solemn fancy. They must needs be wise mē●e, that so will think.  There is no small number of men, which are moved to suspect, that this Apology was devised by some Catholic man, intending to mock this new clergy of England, and to put them quite out of estimation and credit. 
* Here M. Hard. confesseth, that he, and his fellows can set forth lies.  And to that very end this innumerable company of Lies to them seemeth of purpose to be set out. For no man having his five wits would think good, for mainetenance of his own part, to affirm so many things, the contrary whereof to his great discredit and shame, 
In Epist. ad Dioscorum Alexandrinum.  by search is easily found. 
* Untruth manifest. Read the Answer. Articul. 13. Division. 4.  Leo saith clean contrary to that is here in his name avouched, that when so ever a new multitude filleth the Church, so as all cannot be present at the Sacrifice at once, that the Oblation of the Sacrifice be without casting any doubt done again.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I beseech thee, Gentle Reader, for shortness sake, & for thy better satisfaction herein, to consider my answer made hereunto in my Former Reply to M. harding. verily Leo speaketh not one word, either of Private Mass, or of Sole receiving, or of any other like Superstitious, and yéevishe vanity: but only of the General Communion of the whole Church. His Counsel therefore unto Dioscorus is, that if upon occasion of resort, the multitude of Communicantes were so great, that they could not have convenient coume in the Church, to receive all together at one Communion, than the Priest, after he had ministered unto the first Company, and had willed them to depart forth, and give place to others, and saw the Church replenished again with a new Company of aftercomers, should without fear, or remorse of Conscience begin the whole Communion again, and so minister unto them, as he had done unto the foremet. More than this out of Leoes words cannot be gathered.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 1.  
But if they will say, that all these things are woorne now out of ure, and nigh dead, & pertain nothing to these present times, Yet to the end all folk may understand, what Faith is to be geeven to these men, and upon what hope they call together their General Councils, let us see in few words, what good heed they take to the self same things, which they themselves, these very last years, (and the remembrance thereof is yet new and fresh) in their own General Council, that they had by order called, have decreed, and  
Again he saith, 
Summus Sacerdos.  speaking likewise of any one Bishop, Vidisti Summum Sacerdotem Interrogantem, 
Ambros. De ijs qui initiantur. Ca 3.  & Consecrantem: Thou sawest the Highest Priest examining the people, that was to be baptized, and consecrating the Water.  
I leave out sundry other like Authorities of Origen, of Lactantius, of Athanasius, of Leo, 
Euagrius Lib. 3. Cap. 32.  of Victor, of Meltiades, and of others. Euagrius calleth Euphemius, and Gregorius the Bishop of Antioch, Summos Sacerdotes, The highest Priests. 
Ruffinus. Lib. 2. Cap. 23.  Ruffinus calleth Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, Pontificem Maximum: The Greatest, or highest Bishop. By these, I trust, it may appear, that the Title, or Dignity of the Highest priesthood, was general, and common to all Bishops, and not only closed up, and mortesed only in the Pope.  
Besides all this, 
Augustin. Epis. 162.  ye bring us a Word, ye say, of Greater sound: In Romana Ecclesia semper viguit Apostolicae Cathedrae Principatus: In the Roman Church the princehood of the apostolic Chair hath always flourished. In deed, princehood, and apostolic, be joily large words, and carry great sound. And feign would ye have, the Bishop of Rome should be a Prince. notwithstanding, in the Council of Aphrica it was decreed thus, 
Dist. 99 Primae Sedis.  Primae Sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum: Let not the Bishop of the first See be called thee Prince of Priests.  
But what if the sound of these words weigh no heavier, than the former? Or, what if this word, princehood, be no more peculiar to the Pope, then is the other of Highest Priesthood? Paulinus, writing unto Alypius, not the Great Bishop of Rome, but the poor Bishop, as I remember, of Tagasta, saith thus, 
Inter Epistolas Augustin. Epis. 35.  Deus in Civibus Civitatis suae Principalem te cum Principibus populi sui, Sede Apostolica collocavit: God hath placed thee amongst the Citizens of his City, in the apostolic See, being a Principal, or a Chief with (other Bishops, that is to say, with) the Princes of his people: Here have you found thee princehood of the See apostolic, not only in Rome, but also in the poor City of Tagasta. Likewise S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysotom. De Orando Deum. Li. 1.  Ad orandum nos assiduè provocat (Paulus) Apostolorum Princeps: Paul the Prince of the Apostles calleth upon us, to be all ways praying. So saith S. Gregory, Paulus obtinuit totius Ecclesiae Principatum: Paul obtained thee princehood of the whole Church. 
Gregor. in 1. Regum, Ca 10. Li. 4. Ca 4.  So saith Leo, Iwenalis' Episcopus, ad obtinendum Palestinae Provinciae Principatum, etc. Bishop Juvenal, that he might obtain the princehood of the Province of Palest●e, etc. Briefly your own singular doctor Amphilochius writeth thus. 
Leo Epis. 62. Amphilochius.  not of the Pope, but of S. Basile the Bishop of Caesarea: Additus est Principibus Sacerdotum Magnus ipse Princeps Sacerdotum: Basile, being dead, was laid with other Bishops the Princes of Priests, being himself the Great Prince of Priests. It was great folly therefore M. harding, these Titles thus lying in Common, to encroach the same only to the Pope. notwithstanding, ye say, Thus now till then. Verily, when the Pope himself shall begin to consider, and to weigh your pleading, then will he say, he had a very unskilful proctor.  
For answer to the rest, 
Articul. 4. Divisi. 30. & 32.  I remit you to my first Reply.   

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 2.  
Which of the ancient Fathers, or Doctors ever said, that both the Swords are committed unto you?  

M. harding.  
Let S. bernard, Writing to a Pope, answer for the Pope. 
‡ Untruth. For his Authority is not sufficient, as it shall appear.  He is a sufficient witness. Where yourself do allege him much against the Pope, you can not by the law justly refuse him, speaking for the Pope. 
Both Swords.  The spiritual sword you deny not, I trow. Of the Temporal sword belonging also to the Pope, 
Bernard. De Considera. Lib. 4.  thus saith S. bernard to Eugenius. He that denieth this sword to be thine, seemeth to me, not to consider sufficiently the word of our Lord, saying thus (to Peter thy Predecessor) 
* Put up thy sword: Ergo, The Pope hath both Swords: A simple Argument.  Put up thy sword into the scabbard. The very same then is also thine to be drawn forth perhaps at thy beck, though not with thy hand. Else if the same belonged in no wise unto thee, where as the Apostles said, Behold there be two swords here: Our Lord would not have answered, It is enough, but, It is too much. So both be the Churches, the spiritual sword, and the material. But this is to be exercised for the Church, and that of the Church. That by the hand of the Priest, this of the Soldier, but verily at the beck of the Priest, and commandment of the Emperor. Thus. touching the Popes both swords, you are fully answered by S. bernard.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Pope hath power to claim Authority without shame. Amongst others his unadvised, 
Dist. 22. Omnes.  and vain Words, thus he saith: Christus Beato Petro, Vitae Aeternae Clavigero, Terreni simul & Coelestis Imperij iura commisit: Christ hath committed unto Peter, the keiebearer of everlasting Life, the right both of the Worldly, and also of the Heavenly empire: That is to say, The Pope is Emperor both of Heaven, 
Paralipom. Vrspergensis.  & of Earth. And therefore Pope Bonifacius 8. as it is said before, in the sight of the world, ware the Crown Imperial on his head, & commanded thee naked sword to be borne before him: & Proclamation to be made, Ecce duo Gladij hic: Behold here are the two Swords. I mean the same Pope Bonifacius, of whom it is written, 
Carion.  He entered as a Fox: He reigned as a Wolf: he died as a Dog. Hereof it is written in concilio Vangionum, Vtrunque, & Imperium, & Pontificatum, 
Aventinus.  sicuti Decii, & Falsorum Deorum Cultores factitare consueverunt, usurpat: The Pope wrong fully usurpeth both together, as well the Worldly empire, as the Bishopric, as Decius, and the worshippers of False Gods were wont to do.  
Yet S. bernard saith, The Pope hath Both Swords: But S. Bernardes' Authority in this case is but simple. He lived Eleven hundred years after Christ's Ascension, in the time of King Henry the first, the King of England, in the mids of the Pope's rout, and Tyranny. How be it, touching his judgement, and Credit herein, let us rather hear one of your own Doctors. Herueus therefore saith thus, 
Herueus De Potestate Papae, Cap. 18.  Bernardus ponit, quòd Papa habet Gladium Materialem in nutu. Sed istud, cum hoc, quòd non est magnae Authoritatis, magis est contra eos, quàm pro eyes: bernard saith, that the Pope hath the Material, or Temporal Sword at his commandment. But this saying of Bernardes', besides that it is of small force, maketh also more against them, 
Herueus De Potestate Papae, Cap. 18.  then with them. Again he saith, unum istorum Gladiorum Petrus non teugit, scilicet, Saecularem, qui suus non erat: The one of these two Swords. Peter never touched: I mean the Worldly, or Temporal sword: For that Sword was none of his.  
Likewise ye may find it written in your own Decrees, under the name of S. 
Dist. 10. Quoniam idem.  Cyprian, Christus actibus proprijs, & dignitatibus distinctis, Officia Potestatis utriusque discrevit: Christ (hath not committed Both these Swords to one man's hand, but) by several Duties, and sundry Dignities, hath severed the Offices of either Power. Whereupon your own Gloze saith thus, Ergo, est Argumentum, quòd Papa non habet utrunque Gladium: This therefore is a proof, that the Pope hath not Both the swords.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 3.  
Which of the ancient Fathers ever said, that you have Authority, and right to call Councils?  

M. harding.  
Who hath authority to command the parts of the body, 
To call councils.  but the head? 
‡ Untruth great and manifest. for this was yet never proved.  And that the Pope is head, where it is amply declared, ye heard even now. Where you ask, which ever said, that the Pope hath authority to call councils, if you know not so much, 
* Untruth. For Socrates saith not so.  We tell you, that Socrates the writer of the Ecclesiastical history saith so, not speaking in his own person, but reporting an old rule of the Church in these words. 
Histo. Triparti. li. 4. Cap. 9  Sed neque julius interfuit maximae Romae praesul, neque in locum suum aliquem destinavit, cùm utique regula ecclesiastica iubeat, non oportere praeter sententiam Romani Pontificis 
‡ Untruth, standing in false Translation. Read the answer.  concilia celebrari. But neither julius the bishop of great Rome was present, (at the council of Antiochia) neither sent he any man in his place, where as the ecclesiastical rule commandeth, that without the advise and will of the Pope of Rome no counsels be kept. And, as Socrates witnesseth of the calling of counsels, so doth Sozomenus witness of the things done in them. 
Lib. 3. ca 10.  Cum sacerdotali lege constitutum sit, pro irritis haberi debere, quae praeter sententiam episcopi Romani geruntur. Where as (saith he) it hath been ordained by a law of Bishops, that what things be done (in any council) besides th'advise and will of the bishop of Rome, they ought to be taken for none, and void. If you will see more for this authority of calling counsels, read Rescriptum julij Papae contrà Orientales: Epist. Athanasij & Aegyptiorum Pontificum ad Foelicem Papam. This matter is also fully answered.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here hath M. harding brought in a show of great Authorities without sense. For answer whereof, it may please thee, Gentle Reader, to consider the fourth Article of my Former Reply. 
Articulo. 4. Divi. 26.  Notwithstanding, amongst all these words of Pope julius, Socrates, Cassiodorus, and forged Athanasius, there is not one word of power, and Authority to call Councils. Only thus much they say, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Regula juris.  No Decree may pass in Council without the agreement and consent of the Bishop of Rome: for that he was one of the Four Principal patriarchs, and ought to have his voice there, as well as others. It is a Principle ruled in Law, Quod omnes tangit, ab omnibus debet approbari: That toucheth all, must be allowed by al.  
But, lest you should think, this was the Pope's only prerogative, and belonged to none other besides him, the same Socrates writeth the very like words as well of the Bishop of Constantinople, as of the Pope. Thus he saith, Et hoc fecerunt, 
Socra. li. 7. ca 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  contemnentes Legem, qua cavetur, ne quis eligatur praeter sententiam Episcopi Constantinopolitaniss: Thus did they, not regarding the Decree, whereby order was taken, that no Bishop should be chosen without the consent of the Bishop of Constantinople. Yet may not M. harding conclude hereof, that therefore the Bishop of Constantinople had Authority to call Councils.  
Aeneas Silvius, that afterward himself was Pope, named Pius the Second writeth thus, His Authoritatibus mirum in modum putant se armatos, qui negant, Concilia fieri posse sine consensu Papae. Quorum sententia si, ut ipsi volunt, inviolata persistat, ruinam secum Ecclesiae trahit: They that say, no Council may be kept without the consent of the Pope, think themselves marvelously fenced by these Authorities. 
Aeneas Silvius De Concil. Basi. lib. 1.  But if their saying hold, and take place, as they would have it, it will draw with it the decay, and ruin of the Church.  
The Four first great Councils, of Nice, of Ephesus, of Chalcedon, of Constantinople, and the rest, as it shall afterward more largely appear, were always called by the Emperors, and not by the Pope. As for the Pope, he had not yet the whole world at his commandment, nor any such Universal Authority, to call Councils: but rather was commanded himself, as other Bishops were, by the emperors Authority, to come to Councils.  
Therefore, where you would conclude thus, The Pope was Head of the Church: 
The whole world is the Pope's Diocese.  Ergo he had Authority to call Councils: We may rather, and much better turn your tale backward, and say thus, The Pope had no Authority to call Councils: Ergo, he was not head of the Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 4.  
Which of the Ancient Fathers, or Doctors ever said, The whole world is but your Diocese?  

M. harding.  
He that said to Peter, 
joan. 22.  fede my Lambs, and, feed my Sheep, 
* God knoweth here is a sheepish reason.  which Lambs and sheep all Christian men be through the world.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The canonists, that is to say, the Pope's Pages of Honour, have not doubted to infeaffe their Master with the possession of all the world. One saith thus, 
Extra, de Appellation. Vt debitus. In Gloss. Extra. De statu Regularium. periculoso In Gloss. Extra. de Poenis. Foelicis. In Gloss. Extra De Concess. Praebendae, & Ecclesiae non Vaecantis. Quia diversitatem. Abb. Ceremoniar. li. 1. Fran. Zarabella.  Dominus Papa est Ordinarius omnium hominum: Our Lord the Pope is the Ordinary, or Bishop of all men. another saith, Papa totius mundi obtinet Principatum, The Pope hath the princehood of all the world. another saith, Papa est Episcopus totius Orbis: The Pope is the Bishop of the whole world. another saith, Papa etiam cessant negligentia Praelatorum, potest conferre beneficia totius Oribis: Quia ipse est Ordinarius totius mundi. Though there be no default, or negligence in any Bishop, yet may the Pope bestow the benefices of all the world: For that he is the Bishop of all the world. Therefore when the Chief Deacon investeth, or enrobethe the Pope at his Consecration, he saith unto him, Ego investio te de Papatu, ut praesis Vrbi, & Orbi: I do investe thee with the Popedom, that thou mayst rule both the City, and the world.  
Of this infinite Ambition, and inordinate tyranny many good men have often complained. Franciscus Zarabella, being himself a Cardinal of Rome, saith thus: Ex hoc infiniti secuti sunt errores: Quia Papa occupavit omnia iura inferiorum Ecclesiarum: Et nisi Deus succurrat statui Ecclesiarum, universa Ecclesia periclitatur: Hereof have ensued infinite errors: for that the Pope hath invaded the right of all inferior Churches. And unless God help the state of the Churches, the Universal Church is in jeopardy. 
Anna in Historia Graeca: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Histor. Ecclesiast. lib. 1. cap. 6.   
The learned Lady Anna Daughter unto the Emperor Alexius, and Irene, in her Story, that she wrote in Greek, among many other things to like purpose, writeth thus: Papa est Dominus totius Mundi, quemadmodum Latini quidem putant, & praedicant: Est enim etiam haec pars quaedam illorum insolentiae. The Pope is the Lord of all the world, as the Latins think, and speak of him. For this is a piece of their Ambition.  
This hath been the late wanton Claim of the Popes canonists. 
Athana. Ad solitariam Vitam agentes.  Otherwise the Ancient Learned Fathers have evermore bounded, and limited thee Pope within his own particular jurisdiction. Ruffinus saith, the Fathers in the Council of Nice, 
Sozomen. lib. 6. ca 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hieronymus ad Euagrium.  appointed thee Pope to oversee the Churches of his own Suburbs: Vt Romanus Episcopus Suburbicarum Ecclesiarum sollicitudinem gerat. Athanasius saith, Roma est Metropolis Romanae ditionis: Rome is the Mother Church (not of all the universal world, but) of the Roman (particular) jurisdiction. The Bishops in the Council of Rome writ thus to the Bishops of Illyricum, Par est, omnes qui sunt in Orb Romano, Episcopos convenire: It is convenient, that all the Bishops, that be within the jurisdiction of Rome, should accord together. S Jerome speaking of the usage, and order of the Church of Rome, saith thus, 
All receive of the Pope's fullness.  Quid mihi profeis unius Vrbis Consuetudinem? What allegeste thou me the Custom of one City? So much he abbridgeth the Pope's jurisdiction, that he extendeth it, not unto the Lists, & ends of all the world, but restraineth it only to the limits of one City. 
Hierony. ad Euagrium. Hieronymus adversus Vigilantium.  Likewise again, speaking of the Bishop of Rome, he saith thus, Non solùm unius Vrbis, sed etiam totius Orbis errant Episcopi: Then not only the Bishop of One Town (which was the Bishop of Rome) but also the Bishops of all the world are deceived.  
Thus therefore writeth Gennadius, together with the Council of Constantinople, unto the Bishop of Rome, 
Gennadius ad omnes Metropolitanos, & ad Papam Roman.  Curet Sanctitas tua Vniversas tuas Custodias, tibique subiectos Episcopos: Let your Holiness see unto (not all the whole world, but) all your own charge, and such Bishops, as he subject unto you.  
By these few we see, the Bishop of Rome's power was, not Universal or infinite, over all the Churches, and kingdoms of the world: but certain, and limited within his own particular jurisdiction.  
As for the reasons, ye use for proof hereof, I marvel, ye would ever trouble the world with so Childish follies. Christ said unto Peter, Feed my sheep: Ergo, say you, the whole world is the Pope's Diocese. A good Sheep would have made a better Arguments.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 5.  
Which of the holy Ancient Fathers ever said, that all Bishops have received of your fullness?  

M. harding.  
Besides others, so hath 
* A simple Authority.  S. bernard said in his book de consideratione ad Eugenium. Where he saith, that he is called in plenitudinem potestatis, into the fullness of power.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
There is no folly so vain, but by some shift may be maintained. In your Gloze, M. harding, 
Clemen. li. 5. De Haereti. Ad vestrum, In Gloss. Petrus de Palude, de Potestate Papae.  it is written thus: Omnes subiecti sunt motioni Papae, & sunt in illo, quasi Membra de Membro: All men are subject unto the Pope's will, and are in him as members of a member. another saith, Ecclesia non habet Potestatem aliquam jurisdictionis, nisi à Petro: The Church hath no Power of jurisdiction, but only from Peter. And again, A Petro, post Christum, Spiritualis Gratia, & Potestas derivatur: next after Christ, Spiritual Grace, and Power is derived from Peter. And therefore an other of your Doctors saith: 
Petrus de Palude, de Potestate collata Aposto. Durandus, li. 2. De Ministris & Ordinib. Augusti. de Trinita. li. 15. ca 26.  Omnes Episcopi descendunt à Papa, quasi Membra à Capite: & de eius Plenitudine omnes accipiunt. All Bishops are derived from the Pope, as Members from the Head: and all they receive of his fullness: that is to say, Power of his Power, and Grace of his Grace. All these vanities M. harding thinketh, may be well borne out by two bare words of S. bernard.  
But S. Augustine, many hundred years before bernard was borne, wrote thus: Nos quidem accipere possumus hoc donum pro modulo nostro: Fundere autem illud super alios non possumus. Sed, ut hoc fiat, Deum super eos, à quo hoc efficitur, invocamus: In deed we may receive the gift of God according to our portion: but to pour the same upon others, we are not able. Notwithstanding, in their behalf we call upon God, that is the worker hereof, that he will do it.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 6.  
Which of all the Ancient Doctors ever said, that all Power is given to you, 
All power geeven to the Pope.  as well in Heaven, as in Earth?  

M. harding.  

* Untruth, undiscrete, and impudent. For no Ancient Doctor or Father ever uttered so fond words.  Al they which speak of the ministerial Power, whereby under Christ the militant Church by him is governed. But if you mean absolutely, as your words seem to sound, so no discrete Catholic man ever said or thought.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, by a pretty distinction, of Power Absolute, and Power not Absolute, Christ, and his Vicar are set together to part tenors. How be it, what manner of Power it is, 
Extra, De translatione Episcopi. Quamto. Hostien. In Concil. Lateran. sub Leone. 10. Sessione. 10.  that the Pope claimeth, his own Proctors, and Counsellors can tell us best. Cardinal Hostiensis saith, Excepto peccato, Papa potest, quicquid Deus ipse potest: Sin only excepted, the Pope hath Power to do, what so ever God himself can do. Stephanus the Bishop of Patraca, in your late Council at Laterane in Rome, saith thus, In Papa est omnis Potestas supra omnes Potestates, tam Coeli, quàm Terrae: All Power is in the Pope above all the Powers, as well of Heaven, as of Earth.  
And, 
Citatur in eodem Concil. Lateran.  to make the matter plain, your own bernard himself saith, Tibi data est omnis Potestas: in qua, qui totum dicit, nihil excludit: All manner of Power is geeven to thee: He that saith, Al, excepteth nothing.  
And, 
Extra, de Constitutionibus, ca 1.  Abbate Panormitane saith, Plenitudo Potestatis superat omnem Legem positivam: Et sufficit quòd in Papa sit pro Ratione Voluntas: The fullness of Power passeth all Positive Law: and it is sufficient in the Pope, that Will stand instead of Reason.  
This is that Power, that M. harding here hath so closely conveyed in, under the Cloud of his Distinction.  
But, 
Baldus.  Baldus, that by experience saw the practice hereof, saith thus: Haec Plenitudo Potestatis, est Plenitudo Tempestatis: This Fullness of Power, is a Fullness of tempest.  
An other of your Doctoures saith: 
Herueus, De Potesta. Papae. ca 18  Bernardus nullam Potestatem ponit in Papa, quam non ponit in Praelatis inferioribus: licet in Papa ponat Summam: bernard alloweth no Power unto the Pope, but he alloweth the same to other inferior Bishops: notwithstanding, he alloweth the greatest Power unto the Pope. 
Bernard. De Consideration. li. 3.  S. bernard himself saith to like purpose, Sic factuando probatis, vos habere plenitudinem Potestatis: Sed justitiae fortè non ita. Thus doing, and dealing, ye show yourself to have the Fullness of Power: but perhaps not likewise the Fullness of justice.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 7.  
Which of the Ancient Fathers ever said, that neither King, nor Prince, nor the whole clergy, nor all the people together are able to be judges over you?  

M. harding.  

* Worthy reasons.  What Sheep shallbe judges over their shepherd? For as the Fathers of the most ancient Council of Sinuessa said, in the cause of 
‡ This Marcellinus being Pope, had committed open Idolatry, in making Sacrifice ●nto devils.  Marcellinus the Pope, Nemo unquam iudicavit Pontificem: No man ever judged the Pope, nor any Prelate his high Priest. Quoniam prima sedes non iudicabitur à quoquam: * because the first See shall not be judged of any body.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In these two points standeth the Pope's Guard of trust, and the keep, and castle of all his Power. first, the Church of Rome, what so ever way she take, can never err: next, the Pope, what so ever he do, may never be called to any reckoning. 
The Pope without Check.  One of your Doctors saith thus: Omne factum Sanctissimi Patris interpretari debemus in bonum. Et fiquidem fuerit furtum, vel aliud ex se malum, interpretari debemus, 
johan, De Parisijs, De Potesta. Regia, & Papali.  quòd Divino instinctu fiat: We must expound every act of the Holy Father for the best. And if it be theft, or any other thing, that of itself is evil (as Adultery, or Fornication) we must think, it is done by the secret inspiration of God. An other saith, Si Papa innumerabiles populos cateruatim secum ducat mancipio Gehennae, cum ipso plagis mulus in aeternum vapulaturos, 
Distinct. 40. Si Papa.  huius culpas arguere praesumat mortalium nullus: If the Pope draw infinite Companies of people by heaps together with himself into Hell, to be punished with him with many stripes for ever, yet let no Mortal man presume to reprove his faults.  
An other saith, 
9 Questi. 3. Cunctae.  Papa solutus est omni Lege Humana: The Pope is exempted from all Law of Man. An other saith, Sacrilegij instar esset, disputare de facto Papae. Facta Papae excusantur, ut homicidia Samsonis: ut furta Haebraeorum: ut adulterium jacob: 
Dist. 40. Non nos. In Gloss.  It is a sin, as great as Sacrilege, or Church robbing, to reason of any of the Pope's doings. For his Acts are excused, as Samsons Murders: as the jews Robberies: and as the Aduouteries of jacob. 
Petrus de Palude. de Potesta. Papae. Arti. 4.  another saith, Nec Totus Clerus, nec totus Mundus potest Papam judicare, aut deponere: Neither all the clergy, nor all the whole World, may either judge, or Depose the Pope. And again, Papa in nullo casu, quamdiu est Papa, 
Idem eodem loco.  propter quodcunque crimen potest deponi, nec à Concilio, nec à rota Ecclesia, nec à toto Mundo: The Pope, while he is Pope, cannot in any case, for any offence by him committed, be deposed, neither by the General Council, nor by all the Church, nor by the whole world.  
And all this they are well able to prove by good substantial Authority of the Scriptures. 
In Epistola Nicolai Papae: Inter decreta Adriani Papae. Dist. 21. Inferior. Herueus De Potest. Papae. ca 20. Concil. Tomo. 1. In purgatione Sixti.  For thus they reason, The Scholare is not above his Master: The Servant is not above his Lord: And again, The Axe boasteth not itself against the Carpenter, that heweth with it: Ergo, no man may accuse the Pope.  
Therefore, an other of your Doctors saith: judicare de factis Papae, hoc aliqui dicunt esse, Tangere Montem, & ponere os in Coelum: To judge of the Pope's deeds, this, some men say, is to touch the Holy Mount (wherein God gave the Law, & showed himself to Moses) and to set the face against the Heavens. And the Pope himself saith, It is the Sin against the Holy Ghost, which shall never be forgiven, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.  
Thus may the Pope depose Kings, and Princes, and trouble the whole state of the world, and do what he list, without controlment. Yet may no man dare say unto him, Sir why do ye so? Therefore the Accusers of Pope Symmachus said in the presence of King Theodoricus, Papa iactat, se unà cum docendi Potestate, 
Ennodius.  accepisse licentiam peccandi: The Pope maketh his boast, that together with the Power of teaching, he hath received free liberty to do ill.  
Pope Marcellinus, 
Concil. Tomo. 1. In Marcellino.  whose name ye have alleged, out of the Council of Sinuessa, for defence hereof, was an Apostata, & had forsaken Christ, and being Pope in Rome, had made Sacrifice unto Devils. All this notwithstanding, ye say, no mortal man might accuse him. Thus hath the Pope a Special Prerogative, and Praemunire, to forsake Christ, and to commit open Idolatry, and to give Honour, and Sacrifice unto Devils, without controlment.  
Yet S. 
Gala. 2. Cyprian. Ad Quirinum.  Paul accused S. Peter, even unto his face, in the presence of many. And S. Cyprian saith, Petrus se non Vindicavit, seu aliquid insolenter assumpsit, ut diceret, se Primatum tenere, & obtemperari sibi à novellis, & posteris oportere. Peter (being thus checked openly by S. Paul) neither revenged himself, nor took any thing proudly upon him, as to say, that he had the Primacy, or that others, that were but Novices, 
Nicephor. li. 17. cap. 26.  and aftercomers (as Paul was) ought be obedient unto him. Mena, the Bishop of Constantinople, judged, and Excommunicated Pope Vigilius. The Bishops of the east Church judged, 
The Emperor receiveth his power of the Pope.  and Excommunicated, and deposed Pope julius. One of your Doctoures saith, Si Papa committat crimen Depositione dignum, debet puniri, ac si esset unus rusticus: If the Pope commit an offence, wherefore he should justly be deposed, he ought to be punished, as if he were a Clown of the Country. Your neighbours of Leodium, 
Sozomenus, li. 3. cap 11.  in their Epistle against Pope Paschalis, writ thus: Remoto Romanae Ambitionis typho, cur de gravibus, & manifestis, non reprehendantur, & corrigantur Romani Episcopi? 
Felinus in Repertorio. Dignitas.  Qui reprehendi & corrigi non vult, pseudo est, sive Episcopus, sive Clericus: Setting apart the Pride of romish Ambition, the Crimes being great, and manifest, why may not the Bishops of Rome both be reproved, 
Concil. Tomo. 2. Epist. Leodien. contra Paschalem Pap. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and also corrected? He, that fleeth rebuke, and correction, is a false man, whether he be Priest, or Bishop.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 8.  
Which of the Ancient Fathers ever said, that Kings, and Emperors, by Christ's will, and Commandment, receive their Authority at your hands?  

M. harding.  
What is to be answered hereto, 
‡ There may you find nothing to prove nothing.  you may gather of that is alleged before out of S. Bernard, speaking of both sword.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It is evident by the record, and general consent of all Ancient Writers, that the Pope hath neither possession, nor foot of Lands, nor House to dwell in, nor the name of Universal Bishop, 
Nicephor. li. 7. cap 46.  nor Chartar, nor Liberty, nor jurisdiction, but that he hath received, either of the French kings, or of the Emperors. Yet would he now bear the world in hand, 
Carion. in Bonif. 3 Sabellicus in Phoca.  that the Emperor hath nothing, neither Lands, nor Honour, nor Power, nor Right, nor Sword, nor jurisdiction, but only from him. If any man doubt hereof, besides other testimonies of Antiquity, let him read that most vain, and Childish Donation, that the Pope himself hath forged, under the name of the Emperor Constantine. 
Ambrosi. In Lucam. li. 9 ca 20.  S. Ambrose saith, Si non vis esse obnoxius Caesari, noli habere, quae sunt Mundi. Si habes divitias, obnoxius es Caesari: If thou wilt not be subject to the Prince, then possess not the things, that be of the world: If thou have worldly riches, 
August. In johannem, Citatur in Epist. Leodi●n. contra Paschalem Concil. Tomo. 2. Citatur ab Illyrico inter Testes veritatis. Pa. 102.  than art thou subject unto the Prince. Likewise S. Augustine, Dices, Quid mihi, & Regi? Quid tibi ergo, & possessioni? Per Iura Regum possessiones possidentur: Thou wilt say, what have I to do with the Prince? What then haste thou to do with Lands? For possessions are holden (not by the Pope's right, but) by the right of Kings, and Princes.  
Charles the French king, nephew to Charles the Great, wrote thus unto Pope Adrian: Imperatores ius distinguendorum negotiorum Episcopis Sanctis juxta Divalia Constituta permiserunt: non autem Episcoporum Villici extiterunt: Emperors, by their Commissions under their great Seals, have granted unto bishops Authority to hear causes: but they themselves were never Stewards, or bailiffs unto Bishops. One of your own late Doctors saith, 
Herueus De Potest. Papae. ca 18.  Papa habet gladium (Civilem) ex Commissione, & permissione Principis: The Pope hath the Temporal sword, or Civil jurisdiction, by the Commission, and Sufferance of the Prince. Therefore it seemeth great folly to say, The Prince hath his sword, or jurisdiction only by the Commission of the Pope.  
your own Barbarous Gloze saith, 
Extra. De Maiorita. & Obedt. unam Sanctam. In Gloss.  Imperator in temporalibus habet Potestatem à solo Deo. Et imperium fuit, antequam Apostolatus esset. The Emperor in Temporal things hath his Authority (not from the Pope, but) from God only. And the empire was, before the Apostles were. Again, Imperator non habet gladium à Papa: Sed Imperium est à solo Deo. 
The Emperor receiveth his power of the Pope.  The Emperor hath not his Sword of the Pope: but the empire is only from God. Again, Ex sola electione Principum, dico, verum esse Imperatorem, antequam confirmetur à Papa: I say, that the Emperor is a very right, and perfit Emperor, by the only Election of the Princes, 
Dist. 96. Cum ad Verum. In Gloss. 23. quae. 4. Quaesitum.  yea, before he be confirmed by the Pope.  
What shall we need more witnesses? your very Ceremoniarie of Rome saith thus, Hoc affirmamus, ante Carolum Magnum, neminem Imperij Romani Coronam ex Manu Romani Pontificis Romae suscepisse: Thus we say, that before the Emperor Charles the great (that is, for the space of eight hundred years after Christ) no man ever received the Crown of the Roman empire at Rome, 
Dist. 96. Cum ad verum. In Gloss Ceremonia. li. 1. Section. 5. ca 7. Bernardus De Considerate. li. 2.  by the Hands of the Bishop of Rome. S. bernard hereof thus writeth unto the Pope: Esto, ut alia quacunque ratione hoc tibi vendices: non tamen Apostolico iure: Nec illud tibi dare, quod non habuit, Petrus potuit: Be it, that ye claim this right by some other means, Yet by the Apostles right ye cannot claim it: Neither could Peter give you that right, that he himself never bad.  
The Emperor Ludovicus the fourth saith thus: 
Paralipomena Vrspergen. in Ludovico. 4.  Mea Potestas non pendet à Papa, sed à Deo immediatè. Et vanum est, quod dici solet, Papam non habere Superiorem: My Power hangeth not of the Pope, but immediately of God alone. And it is but a peevish vain tale, that they say, the Pope hath no Superioure. johannes Maior saith, 
johan. Maior. 4 Senten. Dist. 20, quae. 2.  Bonifacius Octauus multùm apparenter definivit, quòd Romanus Pontifex est supra Reges in Temporalibus: quod tamen oculatissimi Theologi dicunt esse falsum: Pope Bonifacius. 8. hath concluded with great show of reason, that, even in Temporal Causes, the Pope is above Kings. But I may tell you, the Wisest Divines say, 
johan. De Parisijs, De Potesta. Regia, & Papali, cap. 5.  it is but a false tale. johannes de Parisijs saith, In Temporalibus, Potestas Saecularis maior est Potestare Spirituali, nec, quoadista, est ei subiecta in aliquo: In Temporal Causes, the Temporal Power is greater than the Spiritual Power, and, touching the same, is not subject to it in any point. Herueus saith, Si Imperator habet Potestatem suam immediatè à Papa, Ergo, Imperator est Minister Papae: If the Emperor receive his Power immediately from the Pope, 
Herueus De Potesta. Papae. ca 19  then is the Emperor the Pope's Servant.  
All these Authorities notwithstanding, the Pope himself saith, The Emperor hath no right, nor Authority, but only of him. And, touching the last Objection of Herueus, that the Emperor should be the Pope's Servant, he thinketh, it may be well admitted without any great inconvenience. For thus saith one of his Privy Counsel, 
Dist. 98. Si Imperator. In Glos.  Iste Romanus Imperator, est Procurator, & Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae. This Roman Emperor is (nothing else, but) the proctor, and Steward of the Church of Rome.  
Likewise saith johannes de Parisijs, Dicunt, quòd solus Papa est Verus Dominus Temporalium: 
johan. De Pari. De Potest. Regia & Papali. ca 5.  ita ut possit auferre ab alio, quod aliâs suum est: & tenet factum eius, licet peccet. Sed Praelati coeteri, & Principes, non sunt Domini, sed Tutores, Procuratores, & dispensatores: They say, that only the Pope is the right Lord of Temporal Possessions: so, that he may put any man from his own. And although he offend in so doing, yet his doing taketh place. But other Bishops, and Princes, be not Lords, but Overseers, bailiffs, and Stewards.  
Therefore Pope Adrian namely thus avanced himself above the Emperor Fredericus. 1. Imperator per nos imperat: unde haber Imperium. nisi à nobis? 
Aventinus.  Ecce in Potestate nostra est, ut demus illud, cui volumus: Proptereà constituti sumus à Deo super Gentes, & Regna: ut destruamus, & evellamus, & aedificemus, & plantemus: By mean of us, the Emperor is Emperor: For, whence hath he his empire, but of us? Behold, it is in our hand, to bestow the empire, upon whom we list. And to that end are we placed by God, over Nations, and Kingdoms: that we should destroy, and pluck up, and build, and plant. Such proud vaunts the Pope maketh of himself, without either shame of the world, or fear of God.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 9  
Which of the ancient Learned Fathers, 
The Pope above the the Emperor.  with so precise, and Mathematical Limitation, ever surveyed, and determined you to be seventy, and seven times greater than the Mightiest Kings?  

M. harding.  
Some merry fellow, 
Clemens Con. Aposto. li. 2, Cap. 34. Nazianzen. Ad popul. Nazianzen. De Maiori. & Obedien. Solitae.  or other, 
A pleasant Mathematical Divinity  which thought he might be bold to speak Mathematically, so he kept himself within compass, and without just reprehension. For where as the spiritual power so far passeth the Temporal, as the Soul doth excel the Body, and the Heavens surmount the Earth, as S. Clement saith, and Gregory Nazianzene: 
* By this reason, every simple poor parish Priest is seventy, and seven times greater than the Emperor.  you should not so greatly be offended with the seventy and seven times greater dignity, and we need not condemn him as an Heretic, which would be pleasant in his algorithm, especially joannes Andreae in the same place referring the matter to the Astronomers.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Some Merry fellow, I warrant you, ye say. And thus, now in mirth, now in sadness, ye have of long time mockte the world, and forced Kings and Emperors to be your selaves. 
johan. Andreae. Clemens.  As for your New Doctors, jacke of Andrew, and Sir Clement, as you evermore call him, the Apostles fellow, we weigh them none otherwise, than they be worthy. But, touching Gregory Nazianzene, it is true, that he saith, The Truth, and Might of Goddess word infinitely passeth all worldly Power. But what maketh all this for the Pope, that walloweth only in his Temporalties, and worldly cares, and as well in preaching Gods Word, and Ministering the Sacraments, as also in other Spiritual exercises, is as far inferior to any mean Priest, as the Earth is inferior to the Heavens?  
How be it, that it may appear, what pretty Mirth ye have made herewith, one of your own Fellows saith thus: 
Herueus De Potesta. Papae ca 11.  Ecclesiastici debent judicare per contemptibiles, id est, per Laicos, Secundum tenorem, & debitum Terreni juris: The Ecclesiastical Officers, or Bishops, aught to judge by them, that be Vile, and Contemptible, that is to say, by the Lay Magistrates, according to the tenor, and order of the Temporal Law. Here in your Mirth, and pleasance, in comparison of yourselves, ye call Princes, and Temporal Magistrates, Vile, and Contemptible.  
Again, 
Herueus De Potesta Papae. ca 12.  ye say, Patet, Regnum, siue Regimen Regale non esse acceptum à Deo. Sed ipsum solùm permisit indignatus. Et magis esset acceptum Deo, quòd per solum Papam Mundus in omnibus regeretur: It is plain, that the state of kingdom, or kingly government came not from God. For God only suffered it in his anger. And it were more acceptable unto God, that the whole world were in all things governed by the Pope alone. It were good, ye should tell us, whether ye speak this only in Mirth, and Game, or else in earnest, and good sadness.  
Verily, when ye so proudly compare the Pope to the Son, and the Emperor to the Moon, your meaning is, that, as the Moon hath no light, but only from the son, so the Emperor hath no Authority, but only that he receiveth from the Pope. 
Isidorus in Glos. in Genesim. Herueus, De Potesta. Papae. ca 13  notwithstanding, in this comparison, Isidorus your own Doctor saith, ye are sowly overseen. For thus he writeth, Per Solem intelligitur Regnum, & per Lunam intelligitur Sacerdotium: By the Son, is meant kingly Dignity, and by the Moon, is meant Priesthood. Now therefore jacke Andrew, your merry man, by this reckoning may cast your coumptes backward, & say, The Emperor is seventy, and seven times greater, than the Pope.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 10.  
Which of the ancient Fathers ever said, 
Constantine's Donation.  that more ample Authority is geeven to you, then to the residue of the patriarchs?  

M. harding.  

‡ A whole heap of Untruths and forgeries huddled together.  The Fathers of the Nicene council, by witness of ‡ julius the first, who then lived. ‡ and those of the Council of Sardica, ‡ Athanasius, and the Bishops of Egypt, Thebaida, and Lybia, and the Fathers of certain other Councils.  
Above all other most specially the first Christian Emperor 
* Untruths, without any word or show of truth.  Constantine the great. Who being fully instructed of the most godly and learned Bishops of his time, * what authority the successor of Peter, had by * commission of our Saviour Christ, thought good by his * Imperial Commandment and decree, to confirm, ratify, and for his own person to yield unto 
‡ Untruth. For Sylvester was dead long before these matters are imagined to be done.  blessed Sylvester then Pope, and to his successors Bishops of Rome, the same Authority, and Superiority, not only over Bishops and patriarchs, but also Power and Honour, higher and greater, then that of Kings, and Emperors. The words of 
* This solemn Decree is nothing else, but a solemn folly.  his solemn decree in that behalf made, are these, which as they are found in sundry other Greek writers, so most plainly in 
‡ For shame: hath the Pope none other Record to prove his Chartar by, but only one poor, hungry, forged Grecian, that never saw Rome?  Matthaeus Hieromonachus. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Which in our tongue is this much to say. We give in decree and commandment to all Lords, and to the Senate of our Empire, that the Bishop of Rome, and the successor of S. Peter chief of the Apostles, have Authority and Power in all the world more than that of the Empire is, and that he be honoured and worshepped more than the Emperor, and that he be Head of the four Patriarchal seats, and that things appertaining to the right faith, be of him judged and determined. justinian the Emperor likewise made an express decree, that the most holy Pope of the elder Rome (for these be his very words) be taken, according to the determinations of the holy counsels, to be the 
* first, and principal in Councils, we confess: But Lord and Master of all other patriarchs, that would be proved.  first and principal of all Bishops. It were not hard to allege much more for proof hereof, of good and sufficient authority: but in a matter not doubtful this may suffice.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This is a folly of all follies. Yet is there no folly so great, but by words and countenance it may be maintained. It shameth, me to bestow words herein: and so much the more, for that you say, the case is so clear, and out of doubt. I assure you, M. Harding, of all other your innumerable Lovanian vanities, concerning the practice of the Church, & story of time, this one vanity is the vainest.  
But lest any man, by Simplicity, or Ignorance should be deceived, not understanding the Mysteries of this Donation, or Chartar, by the judgement of your own Doctors, 
Herueus de Potestate Papae, Cap. 19  the meaning thereof is this: Volunt aliqui quòd ratione huius Doni, Papa est Imperator, & Dominus Mundi: & quòd potest Reges instituere, & Destituere, sicut Imperator: some think, that by force, and virtue of this Donation, the Pope is the Emperor, and the Lord of the World: And that hereby he hath Power both to set up, and also to put down Kings, as an Emperor.  
The Fable hereof is so peevish, that the wiseste, and best learned of your very friends, Platyna, Cardinal Cusanus, Marsilius Patavinus, Laurentius Valla, Antoninus Florentinus, Otho Frisingensis, Hieronymus Paulus Catalanus, Volaterranus, Mullinaeus, and others have openly reproved it unto the world, and have written against it, and are much ashamed of your follies.  
And, to allege one in steed of many, Cardinal Cusanus hereof hath written thus: Donationem Constantini diligenter expendens, reperi ex ipsamet Scripture. manifesta argumenta Confictionis & Falsitatis: 
Constantine's Donation.  Advisedly weighing this Donation, or Grant of constantine, 
Nicolaus Cusanus, de Concordantia Catholica, lib. 3 cap. 2. Ni. Cusa. eodem loco.  (whereby the Pope claimeth all his Temporal power) even in the penninge thereof, I find manifest tokens of falsehood, and forgery.  
Again he saith, Sunt, meo judicio, illa de Constantino, Apocrypha: Sicut etiam fortassis quaedam alia longa, & magna scripta Sanctis, Clementi, & Anacleto Papae ascripta. Ipsae enim Epistolae, applicatae ad tempus illorum Sanctorum, seipsas produnt: By my judgement these Chartars of Constantine are forged: as perhaps are also other lo●ge, and great Letters, that bear the name of S. Clement, and Pope Anacletus. For the Letters themselves, applied unto the time of these Holy Fathers, betray themselves.  
Again, 
Dist. 98. Constantinus.  the same grant of Constantine, even in Gratian the Pope's own Register, is found only in the Palea, and not in the Original allowed text. And in many Old Books, that have no Gloze, it is not found. And in the Gloze upon the same it is noted thus, Palea ista non legitur in Scholis: in qua continetur Privilegium, 
Glosa ●odem loco.  quod Constantinus concessit Romanae Ecclesiae: Scilicet, ut Primatum inter omnes Ecclesias obtineret: This patch is not read in the Schools: wherein is contained the Privilege, that Constantinus the Emperor granted to the Church of Rome: that is to say, that the said Church should have the sovereignty over all Churches.  
And, 
Pius. 2. in dialog.  to put the matter out of doubt, even Pope Pius himself thereof saith thus, Dicta palea Constantinus, falsa est: The said, that so beginneth, Constantinus, is stark false. 
Felinus de Maioritate & Obedien. Solitae. Colum. 3.  Whereunto Felinus your canonist addeth these words: Et invehit contra miseros Legistas, qui laborant in disputando, an valuerit id, quod nunquam fuit: And the same Pope Pius rageth earnestly against the poor lawyers, for that they take such pains to reason, whether that thing may be good, and available in Law, that never was made.  
And again, the same Doctoures, 
In vita Syluestri. Herueus de potesta. Papae. ca 19.  that would seem most friendly and favourably to speak of this Donation, by their own judgement, do quite condemn it. For thus they say, In, Donatione illa audita est Vox Angelorum in aëre dicentium, Hodiè Venenum effusum est in Ecclesiam: At the time of the confirming, and passing of this Donation, there was a Voice of Angels heard in the air, saying, This day Poison is powered into the Church.  
Briefly, to touch some part of the Contents, and Substance of the same, the foolish Body, that forged it, was so simple, that he knew not, whether Constantinople stood in the ●aste from Rome, or in the north: Whether Byzance were a City, or a Country: Whether the Imperial Diadem were made of Silk, or of Gold. He telleth a tale of the Patriarch of Constantinople, that he should be ●oner, and buxom to the Bishop of Rome: and yet at that time, when, as he imagineth, this Grant was made, the City of Constantinople was not builded, nor and such name as yet known in the world.  
And yet is the Marginal Gloze hereupon, as good, and as substantial, as the Text. 
Concil. Tomo. 1. pag. 227.  For, where as the Text saith, Contradimus Beato Syluestro phrygium nostrum, id est, mitram: We deliver unto Blessed Sylvester our phrygium, that is to say, our Mitre, there shall you find this pretty note in the Margin,  
Nota, 
Phrygium.  quoed Phrygium factum est ex pennis pavonum: Mark well, that this Phrygium, or Mitre, was made of a Peacocks tail. No doubt, a worthy gift for an Emperor: and a meet Mitre for a Pope. But, as I said before, it foameth me, in so Childish a Fable, to stand so long.  
As for your Greek Doctor Hieromonachus, he shallbe stalled together with your Clemens, Leontius, Amphilochius, and other like your worthy and Weighty Doctors. 
Constantine's Donation.  For shame, what should ye bring us this one silly poor Greek witness, whoes name ye never heard before, to testify of Grants and Conveyances made in Rome? Can your Pope find out neither Council, nor Doctor, nor Father, nor any other Writer of likely record, to help him in so great a case, but only one poor rascal Grecian, that knew no more of the matter, than you yourselves? It bewraiethe the neediness of your cause. He that durst so lewdly to falsify such a Grant, thereby to intrude himself into the possession of the empire, would not blush to falsify some Beggarly Witness, to avouch the same.  
Now, where ye would seem to say, the other Four patriarchs stood evermore at the Commandment of the Bishop of Rome: not only the said three patriarchs, which never neither yielded, nor knew any such Obedience, but also the general practice of the world will soon reprove you.  
Nilus' a Greek Writer saith, 
Nilus De primatu Romani Pontificis. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Vt liquidi●s appareat, Papam non imperare alijs omnibus Episcopis, legatur Sextus Canon Synodi Nicenae, quo disertè praecipitur, ut alijs Ecclesiis Alexandrinus, alijs Romanus, alijs Antiochenus praesit: Vt non liceat alteri, alterius provinciam invadere: That it may well and plainly appear, that the Pope hath no Power or Government over all other Bishops, read the sixth Canon of the Nicene Council. There it is expressly Commanded, that the Bishop of Alexandria shall have the rule over certain Churches, and the Bishop of Rome over certain, and the Bishop of Antioch likewise over certain: And that it shall not be lawful for any one of them, to invade the Jurisdiction of an other.  
The Emperor justinian saith, Ecclesia Vrbis Constantinopolitanae Romae Veteris praerogativa laetatur: 
Cod. De Sacrosan. Eccle. Omni innovatione. Nicephorus, li. 12 cap. 13.  The Church of the City of Constantinople enjoyeth now the prorogative of Rome the Elder. Nicephorus saith, Romano & Constantinopolitano Episcopo ex aequo paria sunt & dignitatis praemia, & honorum iura: The title of dignity, and right of honour, geeven to the Bishop of Rome, and the Bishop of Constantinople are one, and equal.  
So likewise it was determined by Decree in the Council of Constantinople: Definimus Sedi Constantinopolitanae paria jura, 
Concil. Constant. 2. cap. 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  & Privilegia cum Sede Veteris Romae: We decree, that the See of Constantinople shall have Rights, and Privileges equal with the See of Old Rome. Therefore, as it is said before, Gennadius, together with the Council of Constantinople, wrote thus unto the Bishop of Rome: Cures Sanctitas tua Vniversas tuas Custodias, tibique Subiectos Episcopos: 
Gennadius ad omnes Metropolitanos, & ad Papam Roman. Cyprian ad Cornelium.  Let your Holiness see unto all your own Cures, and to the Bishops, that be subject unto you.  
S. Cyprian, Cyrillus, Athanasius, and others, writing, either of, or unto the Bishop of Rome, call him, not their Lord and Master, unto whom of duty they ought Obedience, but their Brother, and their fellow Servant. Yea the Pope himself, in some cases, hath rather offered his Obedience unto other Bishops. 
Athanasius ad Epi. Aphricanos. Epistola Liberij ad Athanasium.  For thus writeth Pope Liberius unto Athanasius the Bishop of Alexandria: Quaeso ut huic confessioni subscribas, ut ego securior efficiar, & tua mandata inhaesitanter obeam: I beseech thee to subscribe to this Confession, that I may be out of doubt, and may do your Commandments without grudging.  
Yet now the Bishop of Rome, to maintain his title by a Writ of Right, for as much as the four principal patriarchs of the world have forsaken him, appointeth out Four of his ordinary Chaplains, and giveth them the names of four patriarchs: The first for Constantinople: the second for Alexandria: the third for Antioch: the fourth for Jerusalem. And thus, having these four at Commandment, in his pleasant fau●●e, he ruleth, and governeth the whole world. In such a solemn bravery, the great Cham of Tartary at this day, after he hath dined himself, 
The Pope is God.  soundeth out a trumpet, and giveth all the kings, and Emperors of the world leave to go to dinner: and in this imagination, and jollity, he continueth his claim to the possession of all the world, even by as good right and Title, as doth the Pope. And when so ever the Pope himself, in his own person, openly, and solemnly saith his Mass, he commandeth the Gospel, and Epistle to be read in Greek. Whereupon his own Master of Ceremonies saith thus: 
Ceremonia. li. 3. cap. 7.  Hanc consuetudinem hinc ortam puto, ut appareat Romanam Ecclesiam in se continere Vtramque Gentem: Hereof, I think, this Custom first proceeded, that hereby it may appear, that the Church of Rome containeth in it Both Nations. 
Antoni. in Summa. par. 3. tit. 22. cap. 6.  
Artic. 4. Divi. 8.  
Artic. 4▪ Divi. 7.  All this notwithstanding, Antoninus saith, Hoc Graeci non credunt. For all this, the Greeks believe it not.  
The objections of justinian, and of the Council of Sardica, are answered in my Former Reply to M. harding.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 11.  
Which of the ancient Holy Fathers ever called you Lord, and God?  

M. harding.  
None that wise is, so speaketh absolutely: nevertheless in some certain sense, S. 
* A vain forgery.  Clement calleth every Bishop. Terrenum quendam Deum, a certain earthly God, as it is written, 
‡ These words are spoken of Princes and Magistrates.  I have said, ye are Gods, etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
So that ye make not the Pope an Absolute God, ye think, ye may otherwise call him God safely, and without prejudice. A proper shift, to maintain a vain man in the possession of his Godhead. 
Hierony. In Daniel. cap. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  
Suetonius in Domitiano  
Suetonius.  
Pompon. Laetus. Athenaeus, li. 7.  
Chrysost. De Spi. Sancto.  
August. Contra Faustum li. 13. cap. 17.  
Euse. li 2. ca 13.  In such a pleasant imagination Antiochus sommetime the king of Syria, entitled himself by the name of God. So the Emperor Domitian used to assign his Proclamations: Dominus Deus vester Domitianus: Your Lord God Domitian. So the Emperor Caligula called himself, Deum optimum Maximum, & iovem Latialem: The best, and most mighty God, and the great God jupiter of Italy: So Sapores, the great king of Persia, called himself, Fratrem Solis, & Lunae: The brother of the Son, and the Moon: So the peevish Physician Menecrates called himself jupiter: So Nicostratus called himself Hercules: So Nicagoras made himself a pair of whinges, and would needs be called the God Mercurius: So Manichaeus the Heretic called himself the Holy Ghost: So the Romans in old times erected up an Image in the honour of Simon Magus the Sorcerer, with this Inscription, or Posee, Simoni Sancto Deo: In the honour of Simon the Holy God. By this your so handsome Distinction, M. harding, of God Absolute, and God not Absolute, I see not, but every of these might well, and safely have maintained his title without blame.  
Certainly, 
Dist. 96. Satis evidenter.  
Christopher. Marcel. In Conc. Latera. Sess. 4.  
Cardillus pro Concil. Trident.  in this arrogant vanity, scarcely any of all these was ever comparable to the Pope. Pope Nicolas saith, Constat Summum Pontificem à Pio Principe Constantino Deum appellatum. It is well known, that the Pope, of the godly Prince Constantine, was called God. Likewise the Pope was well content, to suffer one of his Parasites to say unto him, in the late Council of Laterane, Tu es alter Deus in terris: Thou art an other God in Earth. Likewise Cardillus the Spaniard in Defence of the Pope's La●e Chapter at Trident, oftentimes calleth the Pope's late Chapter at trident, oftentimes calleth the Pope Terrenun Deum, An earthily God: By the same style, and right, whereby Holophernes sometime said, 
judith. 5.  Nobuchodonosor est Deus Terrae: Nabuchodonosor is the God of the Earth.  
Upon the Pope's own Clementines, ye shall find the matter thus taken up, & qualified with great indifferency, and modestle, and thus specially noted in the Margin: 
* The Pope is neither God, nor Man. Our Lord God the Pope.  Papa nec Deus est, nec Homo. And, to leave other his like blasphemous, & fond styles, 
extravag johan. 22. Cum Inter. In Glossa. Impress. Lugduni. An. 1555. Parisijs. 〈◊〉 n. 1513. 2 Thessalon. 2.  
Gregor. in job. Ca 34. Li 25. Ca 14.  
Anselmus in. 2. Thessalon. 2.  in an other like Gloze ye shall find it written thus, Credere, Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam non potuisse statuere, prout statuit, Haereticum censeretur: To believe, that Our Lord God the Pope might not decree, as he decreed, it were a matter of Heresy. Here have we found by express, & plain words, even in the Pope's own Authentical, and allowed Book, Our Lord God the Pope.  
These things might seem uncredible, had not S. Paul foretold us, that the Man of Sin should sit in the Temple of God, and show himself, as if he were God. S. Gregory, writing of antichrist, saith thus, Cùm sit damnatus Homo, & nequaquam Spiritus, Deum se esse mentitur: Whereas he is a damned man, and not a Spirit, by lying, he feigneth himself to be God. Anselmus saith, Simulabit se Religiosum, ut sub specie decipiat Pietatis: Imò se Deum esse dicet: & se Adorari faciet: atque regna Coelorum promittet: antichrist shall feign himself to be Holy, that he may deceive men under the Colour of Holiness. Yea, and he shall call himself God: and shall cause himself to be worshipped: and shall promise the Kingdom of Heaven. Eusebius saith, 
Eusebius de Praeparat. Li. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Hoc est Argumentum, eos odisse Deum, quoed velint seipsos appellari Deos: This is a token that they hate God, for that they will have themselves called by the name of God.  
Likewise saith the Ancient Father Irenaeus, Antichristus existens Apostata, & Latro, quasi Deus, vult Adorari: & cùm sit servus, Regem se vult praeconiari: antichrist, being a Renegade, and a Thief, yet willbe worshipped as a God: and being but a slave, yet he willbe Proclaimed, and published, as a King. Therefore, although the Pope be not, as you say, an Absolute God, or an Absolute Christ, yet without any great inconvenience, I trow, he may well be an Absolute antichrist.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 12.  
Which of the ancient Holy Fathers ever said, that you are not a mere Natural man, but a certain Substance made, & grown together, of God and Man?  

M. harding.  
Can you bring him before his face, 
A faint ercuse.  that shall say so unto him? I warrant you (ma●ster Defender) he shall either be reproved for his flattering, or proved to understand no more by it, than 
* A certain Divine Power in the Pope.  a certain divine power above the Natural state of men, 
‡ A soar pounishement for open Blasphemy.  or warned, that he be more circumspect in his glozing, when Heretics are ready to slander the whole Church, because of one Private man's affection.   

The B. of Sacrisburie.  
He that may call himself, Lord, and God, may easily Claim himself to be more, 
In Sexto: De Electione, & Elect. Fundamenta, In Glossa. Clemen. In Prooe●io. In Glossa.  than a man. In the Popes own decretals, it is noted thus in the Margin, Papa non est Homo: The Pope is not a Man. Your Gloze upon the Pope's own clementines, allegeth these words out of one of your allowed Poëtes, Papa stupor Mundi: The Pope is the Wonder of the World. And again, Nec Deus es, nec Homo: quasi neuter es inter Vtrunque ●hou arte neither God, nor Man: In a manner Thou art neither of both: but rather a mean between both.  
By the Authority of this doctor, it appeareth, that the Pope is neither God, nor Man. Angel, I trow, he is not. What other Creature ye may make of him, I leave to you further, to consider.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 13.  
Which of the ancient Fathers ever said, that you are the only Headspringe of all Laws?  

M. harding.  
Whsoever saith it, speaketh not without evident reason, considering that of the Principal of every government, all laws belonging to the same, be deducted and derived.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here have ye brought us a full simple reason, as God knoweth. But to have brought us some Authority of doctor, or Council, it had been better.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 14.  
Which of the ancient Fathers ever said, that you have Power over Purgatory?  

M. harding.  

* No doubt, it were a worthy matter. Wisely.  O that ye would first believe a Purgatory, and then should ye understand, what dispensation of losing and binding is committed to the Vicar of Christ. 
isaiah. 7.  For, as isaiah saith, Except ye believe, ye shall not understand: and the consequent doctrine must needs be obscure, as long as the principal ground thereof is wickedly denied.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Of your Purgatory fantasies, we have sufficiently said before. Where ye wish, we would believe, there is a Purgatory, Verily we believe constantly, what so ever God hath willed us to believe. 
Roman. 10.  S. Paul saith, Faith cometh by hearing: Hearing cometh by the Word of God: and thereby only is Faith directed. As for your Follies, & Mockeries, they are subject to Fancy, and not to Faith. 
August. de Tempore Sermon. 145. Feria. 3. Paschat.  
August. in quaestiont●. veteris Tes●am quae. 43.  S. Augustine saith, Nemo de Christo credat, nisi quod de se credi voluit Christus: Let no man believe of Christ, but that, that Christ hath commanded him to believe of Christ. Again he saith, Constat Fidem stultam non prodesse, sed potiùs obesse: It is certain, that Foolish Faith doth no good, but rather burteth. Notwithstanding though all your Lists, & gainful Territories of Purgatory were fully granted, yet should it be very hard for you to prove, either by Scripture, or by doctor, that the Pope beareth any greater Authority, or swea there, to command in, or out at his pleasure, than any other simple priest. All be it, one of your allowed Doctors saith, 
Augelus Parisiensis.  Purgatorium est peculium Papae: Purgatory is the peculiar possession of the Pope.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 15.  
Which of the ancient Fathers ever said, that you are able to Command the Angels of God, as ye list yourself?  

M. harding.  
Nor old Father, 
* Untruth manifest, As shall appear.  nor new Doctor. And what so ever he be, that shall so tell you, believe him not. He speaketh not catholicly: and you must make no scruple in such matters.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, at last, M. harding, for shame, ye are feign to yield. No doctor, ye say, ever thus said, neither Old, nor New. How be it, hereto ye have laid a very special exception: If any man have so said, say ye, what so ever he were, he spoke not catholicly. And yet again ye tell us further, How so ever it be, we should never be scrupulous in such matters.  
But what if the Pope himself, 
The Pope's power over the Angels of God.  the Father of all Fathers, and doctor of all Doctors, both New, and Old, have not blushed to say the same? May we say, as you say, The Pope himself was not Catholic? Or, if we so say, will you believe it?  
In deed, King Xerxes, the great King of Persia, when he had brought over his huge Army into Graecia, sent out his letters of defiance unto the great Mount Athos, 
Herodotus.  that is in Macedonia, & commanded him to stand still, and not to st●rre a foot, nor to work any pispleasure, either to himself, or to his Army. Even by like Authority, and with as good discretion, the Pope hath used to send out his Precepts, & Princely Letters, and to command Angels, Archangels, & all the Powers of Heaven, to come, to go, to fetch, to carry, & to be ready to do his wil Therefore is he the better content, to hear his friends tell him thus, Tibi data est omnis potestas, 
In Concil. Lateranen. Sub Leo●ne. 10. Sess. 10. Extra. De Constitutionib. Statuta Canonum. Felin.  
Felinus eodem loco.  supra omues potestates, tam Coeli, quàm terrae. Qui totum dicit, nihil excludit: To thee is geeven all manner of Power, above all Powers, as well of Heaven, as of Earth. He that saith, Al, excepteth nothing.  
Felinus' your doctor saith thus, Nedum Circa Coelestia, Terrestria, & Infernalia papa gerit Vicariatum Christi, sed etiam super Angelos, Bonos, & Malos: The Pope hath Christ's Lieutenantship, not only over things in Heaven, over things in Earth, and over things in Hell, but also over the Angels, both Good, and Bad.  
Innocentius the Pope himself saith, Vicario Creatoris omnis creatura Subiecta est: Unto the creators Lieutenant every Creature is subject. Your own doctor Antoninus, 
Autonin. in Sum. par. 3. Titu. 22. Cap. 5. ante §.  the archbishop of Florence, saith, Potestas Papae maior est omni alia potestate creata, aliquo modo extendens se ad Coelestia, Terrestria, & Infernalia: ut de ea verificari possit, quod dictum est, Omnia Subiecisti sub pedibus eius: The Pope's Power is greater, than any other power, that God ever made: and after a sort stretcheth itself unto things i● Heaven, things in Earth, and things in Hell: so that, of that Power the words may be verified, that are written by the Prophet David, 
Agrippa de vanitate Scientiarum.  Thou haste made all things subject to his foot. Camotensis saith, Papa Angelis praecipit, & potestatem habet in Mortuos: The Pope commandeth the Angels (of God), and hath power over the Dead. Gregorius Haimburgensis saith, Vt termivis v●ar suorum Adulatorum, 
Gregor. Haimburgen. in Appellatione sigismundi Ducis Austriae.  
Veselus.  
Agrippa de Vanita. Sciential.  Papa Angelis habet imperare: To use the words of his Platterers, the Pope hath Power to command thee Angels. Therefore, if any man happen to die upon the way, as he passeth in Pilgrimage to Rome, Pope Clement. 6. commandeth the Angels of God, to be at hand, and to carry his soul immediately into Heaven.  
Hereto, and to all other the like, M. harding saith, These Popes, these Doctors, these Fathers, these Pages, these Parasites, herein were not Catholic.  
notwithstanding, he saith further, If the Pope, for his fancy, take somewhat upon him, and sometimes be a little over bold with God's Angels, to Command them, and Countremaunde them, at his pleasure, in such cases we ought not to be over scrupulous.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 16.  
Which of the ancient Fathers ever said, that you are the Lord of Lords, and King of kings?  

M. harding.  
He useth the clean contrary Title, calling himself servum servorum Dei, the Servant of the Servants of God. Yet if he, for the largeness of his jurisdiction, have a number of Lords and Kings within his fold, 
In a right good sense.  although he himself doth not boast of it, yet in a right good sense, that Title may be given to him.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
notwithstanding the Pope call himself the King of Kings, 
The Pope King of Kings.  & the Lord of Lords: 
Extra De Maiorit. & Obedientia. Solitae. Dist. 98. Si Imperator. In Glossa. Aventinus in Adriano.  Notwithstanding he say, The Emperor is so far inferior unto him, as the Moon is inferior unto the Son: notwithstanding he say, The Emperor is but his bailiff, his Steward, & his Man: notwithstanding he say, He hath power to set up, & to put down Kings, and Emperors at his pleasure, Yet, saith M. harding, all this may be spoken in right good sense: for the Pope useth a clean contrary Title, and calleth himself, servum servorum Dei, The Servant of God's Servants. Thus he thinketh it sufficient, to weigh matters only by Title, and not by Truth.  
How be it, all this is but plaieinge under a Visard. The Devil seldom theweth his horns: 
●▪ Corinth. 11.  but rather changeth himself into an Angel of Light. Touching this Title, As the Pope calleth himself a Servant, even so doth the Emperor likewise abase himself to the name of a Servant. If ye doubts hereof, read your own Gloze upon your decretals. 
In Decretal. Grego. In prooemio. In Glossa. Extra. de Preben. & Dignitatib. johan. 22.  
Execrabilis. In Glossa.  
Herueus de Potest. Papae. Ca 12.  The words there be these: Etiam Imperator seipsum appellat servum: LIkewise again the same Gloze saith, Papa se servum appellat, & Imperator vocat se servum Vltimum Ecclesiae: The Pope calleth himself a Servant, and the Emperor calleth himself the vilest Servant of the Church.  
All this is nothing else, but a politic kind of dissimulation, and Hypocrisy. For if these be Servants, I pray you then, who be Lords?  
Herueus, one of your own Doctors, hereof saith thus, Dicere, quo●d talia dicum Summi Pontifices ex Humilitate, est omni● o' perniciosum. Et hoc est ponere os in Coelum. Philosophus dicit, hoc esse peccatum Ironiae, quod opponitur virtuti. Et addit, tales humiles non esse virtuosos, sed timidos, & blanditores. Et Augustinus ait, 
August de Verbis Apostoli.  Cùm Humilitatis causa mentiris, si non eras peccator antequàm mentireris, mentiendo peccator efficeris: To say, that the Popes speak these words of Humility, it were very hurtful. And this is, To set the face against the Heavens. Aristotle saith, this is the ●●nne of Dissimulation, or Hypocrisy, which is contrary unto virtue. And saith further, that such humble men are not virtuous, but fearful, and flattering. And S. Augustine saith, when so ever thou speakest untruth under the colour of Humility, if thou were not a sinner before, yet by telling untruth thou art made a Sinner.  
Good Reader, pull of this painted Visard: & under this vain Title of, Servant of Servants, thou shalt find a Lord of Lords. For proof hereof, thus the Pope himself saith: Neither Emperor▪ nor King may judge thee Pope. 
Epistola Nicolat Papae, Inter Decreta Adriant Papae. Concil. tomo. 1▪ In purgatione Sixti.  And his reason is this, Non est servus supra Dominum: For (the Emperor being a) Servant, in not above (the Pope, that is) his Lord. Thus ye see, he that so humbly calleth himself the Servant of Servants, if ye touch him, or anger him, will suddenly change himself into the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. For in these words he plainly, & expressly calleth the Emperor the Servant, and himself the Lord. And, what so ever he said to the contrary, verily the Pope's Exposition must needs be more Authentical, then M. hardings.  
He maketh the Emperor to hold his Stitope: He maketh the Emperor to lead his Bridle: He maketh the Emperor to kiss his Foot: He maketh the Emperor to lie down groveling, 
Doct. Bonner in Praefa. in Libel. Stephani Gardineri De Vera Obedientia.  and setteth his foot on his neck: And yet still calleth himself, The Servant of Servants. Few good Servants willbe to homely with their Masters. doctor Bonner saith thus, Notwithstandinde the Pope be a very Roveninge Wolf, dressed in sheeps clothing, yet he calleth himself, The Servant of Servants.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 1.  
We can also go further with you in like sort. What one, amongst the whole numbered of the old Bishops and Fathers, ever taught you either to say Private Mass, whiles the people stared on, or to lift up the Sacrament over your head, in which points consisteth now all your Religion: Or else to mangle Christ's Sacraments, and to bereave the people of the one part, contrary to Christ's Institution, and plain express words? But that we may once come to an end: What one is there of all the Fathers, which hath taught you to distribute Christ's Blood, and the Holy Martyrs Merits, and to sell openly your Pardons, and all the rooms and lodgings of Purgatory, as a gainful kind of merchandise?  

M. harding.  
Your objections of Private Mass, of lifting up the blessed Sacrament, of ministering the Communion under one Kind, be as common with you, as Life be with Beggars, and lies with Heretics. For in deed your questions be but beggarly and heretical. Touching the same. I have said 
‡ Note, that M. harding, in his said three Articles of Answer to M. jewel, hath published threescoare and nico● great Untruths.  so much in roy answer to M jewel your nearest friend his Challenge▪ as here to rehearse it again, 
Article. 1. 7. 2.  it is needless. You may seek it there. The Doctrine of pardons I judge verily you understand not. Here is no opportunity to discuss it. The full treatise of the same requiring a long process, may well to an other time be differred. 
Fol. 117.  Of Purgatory I have said some deal here before. These be the matters, wherein you and your ignorant fellow ministers gladly show your vile railing, and scoffing eloquence. Yet concerning the doctrine of pardons 
* And all the same is less than nothing.  lest I say nothing, this much I have thought good to say here.  
In the Sacrament as well of Baptism, as of penance, all the bands of sin are loosed, and the whole everlasting pain due to sin is forgiven. At Baptism no temporal pain is enjoined to us, because Christ most freely bestoweth the benefit of his death upon us at that our first entry into the Church. 
‡ A Doctrine full of sundry blasphemies.  But if afterward we abuse his mercy, returning again to filthy sin, Christ would our second, third, and all other reconciliations from thence forth, to be with due satisfaction, not of his dreadful anger, (which only his blood, and the Sacrament of penance, by due contrition and confession in deed or in vow received, is able to remove) but with satisfaction of such temporal pain, as his merciful justice required both of all others from the beginning, and 
* King David alleged for proof of pardons.  namely of King David: 
●▪ Reg. 12.  To whom confessing his fault Nathan said, Our Lord hath put a way thy Sin, thou shalt not die. Behold the forgiveness of the mortal sin, and of the everlasting pain due to the same. But yet so is it forgiven, that withal it is transferred into a temporal satisfaction. What was that? It followeth in the story, that because David through his adultery and murder had caused the enemies of God to blaspheme his holy name, the child borne of the wife of Urias should surely die. And so it came to pass. If the death of a Son be so grievous a punishment to a good Father, that King David was content to pray, to fast, to lie on the ground, afflicting himself seven days, only to try whether he might as it were by exchange buy out the death of his Son, and yet so could not obtain his desire: we may be most certain, that the very best friends of God, sinning after Baptism (or circumcision, which in the old law stood in place thereof) must by ordinary course sarisfie with some temporal affliction that just judgement of our merciful Make and Redeemer, if farther grace be not found by some other way. This satisfaction hath been therefore justly called the third and last part of penance. Which if it be not fulfilled in this life, undoubtedly it shall be straightly exacted in the world to come in the fire of Purgatory. For that sins may be in an other world forgiven to those who die not in the deadly bonds of them, 
‡ Untruth avouched upon Christ. See the Answer.  our Saviour hath given us to understand, 
Matth. 22.  saying, That the sin against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, neither in this world nor in the world to come, whereof it appeareth that some other Sins may be forgiven in the world to come.  
Well, this satisfaction may notwithstanding be fulfilled more than one way. For a man being once by the Sacrament of penance justly reconciled to the mystical Body of Christ, which is his Church, wherein (as the Prophet saith) a faithful man is made partaker of all that fear God and keep his commandments: 
Psal. 118.  we have in that band of peace such an unity of Spiriie communicated to us all, that the defect of one may be in spiritual causes 
* A folly passing all other follies.  supplied out of the plenty of all others his fellow membres, 
Galat. 6.  according as the Apostle saith, 
‡ A text full wisely applied to prove pardons.  Bear ye one an others burdens. And because the Head (which is Christ) is the chief member of all, and far more than all the rest, such influence is from him derived throughout his mystical Body, that even his death may as well inwardly by charity, as outwardly by another way also be applied to us for the pardoning of that temporal satisfaction, which after the Sacrament of penance is left unforgeven. And that is by such authority, as Christ gave to Peter, saying: 
Matth. 16.  To thee I will give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and what so ever thou bindest in Earth, it shall be bound also in Heaven, and what so ever thou 
* O Fond man, Christ saith, What so ever thou losest in Earth, and not in Purgatory.  losest in Earth, it shall be loosed also in Heaven. Lo, what so ever Peter looseth in earth, it shall be loosed in the sight of God. If therefore the Pope, who succeedeth Peter, do by just cause lose not only the mortal Sin by the sacrament of penance, but also the band of Temporal pain, which remaineth yet due to to the Sin: it is undoubted, that such pain is loosed in the sight of God. The cause of loosing must be, not only the will of the Pope (who is put in Authority to build, and not to destroy: to dispense, and not to lavish) but a reasonable change or recompense substituted in that behalf, such as appertaineth to the Honour of God; or to the profit of souls: As maintaining war and fighting against infidels for the defence of Christendom, recovery of the Sepulchre of Christ, succouring widows, Orphans, or other poor persons, the building or maintaining of Holy places, the visiting of Prisons and Martyrs tombs, or any like Devout and Charitable deeds. Which whiles the faithful Christian doth obediently perform (although otherwise the thing enjoined be not great) he may obtain remission also of that temporal satisfaction, which was left in penance unremitted. This kind of Pardon S. Paul gave to that notorious sinner, 
1. Cor. 5.  who at Corinth had his Father's wife, and was for that fault separated from the Church of God, to be afflicted temporally in his flesh. But when the Corinthians had informed S. Paul of his earnest and true repentance, and had showed their own favour and good wills toward him: 
2. Cor. 2.  the Apostle answereth, Whom ye forgive aught, I also (forgive) for I also in that I have forgiven, if I have forgiven aught, for your sakes in the person of Christ, I have forgiven it. Well, we are assured the Apostle speaketh of forgiving such afflictions, as the party was in, by reason he was delivered out of the defence of holy Church, to that state, where the Devil, 
In. 1. Cor. 5. Hom. 15.  as S. Chrysostom upon that place noteth, Pro solutione Peccatorum, for payment of his Sins, might vex him: and wherein such persons being put to their penance, used to remain for a certain space of months or years, until their penance were done and expired. Now the reconcilinge of the man not yet having done due satisfaction before his ordinary time, is a pardon. Which the Apostle saith, he doth give in the person of Christ, as having authority of him to do it: and for the Corinthians sakes, as who were able by their Holy Prayers and common sorrow (whereof the Apostle speaketh) to make recompense for that which lacked on the behalf of his own satisfaction. If this much do not satisfy any man, 
And thus M. harding awaked out of his dream.  desiring to be fully resolved herein, let him resort to the Latin works of the Holy and learned Bishop of Rochester.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
These objections, ye say in your pleasant homely comparison, are as common with us, as Life with Beggars. And yet to my remembrance, neither you● Private Mass, nor your Half Communion was ever touched in this whole Apology, more than once, before this place: the lifting up, or shewing of the Sacrament, not once at al. ye should have weighed your advantages better, M. harding, before ye thus bestowed your loathsome quarrels.  
But thought you in deed, 
The Pope's Pardonnes.  M. harding, I will not say, as you say, that with so lousy, and Beggarly, but that with so poor, and simple stuff ye should be able to mock the word? Many fond tales both you, and your fellows have sent us over: but a fonder tale, than this tale is, of your pardons, and Purgatories, ye have sent us none. I must say to you, as S. Augustine sommetime said to julianus the Pelagian Heretic: 
Augustin contra julianum, Lib. 5. Cap. 1.  Necessitate compellitur Talibus pannis indui dui tam magna etiam Vestra superbia: Your Pride, be it never so great, even for very poor need and beggary, is feign to cover itself with such soary clouts.  
I beseech you, consider, how advisedly, and reverently ye use Gods Holy Word. 
2. Regum. 12. Matth. 12.  Thus you say, Nathan said unto David, Our Lord hath put away thy sin: thou shalt not die: Christ saith, The Sin against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, neither in this World, nor in the World to come: Or, as S. Mark saith, Non habe● remissionem in Aeternum: 
Marci. 3. Galat. 6. Matth. 16.  Sed reus erit Aeterni delicti: He hath not remission for Ever: but shallbe guilty of everlasting sin. S. Paul saith, Bear ye one an others burden. Christ saith to Peter, To thee will I give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, etc. S. Paul said of him, the had lived in shameful incest with his Father's wife, 
1. Corinth. 5.  Let such a one be given over to Satan. These be your Scriptures: hereof ye full discreetly, and learnedly Conclude thus: Ergo, The Pope hath a warrant sufficient to grant his pardons, and that, as well to the dead, as to the quick.  
O M. harding, God is not to be mocked: fear his judgements: Abuse not his Name, or Word in vain. Full well you know, that neither David, nor Nathan, nor Christ, nor Paul were Pardommoungers. What should I further say to him, that with so great a countenance, and so much a do, can say nothing? Let S. Augustine briefly answer all these vanities. Thus he saith, Hoc quid est aliud, nisi diligenter pro humana suspicione contendere, 
Augu. de Civit. Lib. 13. Cap. 24.  & Scripturas Sanctas negligenter attendere? What thing else is this, but stoutly to strive for man's fancy: and negligently to consider Gods Holy Word?  
The Prophet David, upon whom ye would seem to ground these follies, answereth you thus, Narraverunt mihi iniqui fabulationes: Sed non ut lex tua Domine: The wicked have told me many foolish tales: 
Psal. 118.  But, O Lord, nothing as thy Law. S. Augustine, & if he were now alive, he would say of you, as he said of other your Predecessors, O Vanitas, vendens Vanitatem, Vanitatem audituris, Vanis, & Credituris: 
August. in Li. 50. Homili. Hom. 36.  O Vanity, selling Vanity, to them that will hear Vanity: and Vain are they, that will believe it.  
Leo saith, In hanc insipientiam cadunt, qui cùm ad cognoscendam Veritatem aliquo impediuntur obscuro, 
Leo ad Flavianum, Epist. 10  non ad Propheticas voces, non ad Apostolicas Literas, nec ad Euangelicas Authoritates, sed ad semetipsos recurrunt: Into this folly they fall, that, when they be hindered by some darkness from the knowledge of the Truth, go not to the Voices of the Prophets, nor to the writings of the Apostles, nor to the Authorities of the Gospels: but only have recourse unto themselves.  
Now, somewhat to say particularly of the matter, touching your pardons, your own doctor Sylvester Prieriâs, Master of the Pope's Palace, writeth thus: Indulgentiae Authoritate Scripturae non innotuere nobis: Sed Authorirate Ecclesiae Romanae, 
Sylvester Prierias contra Luthe.  Romanorumque pontificum, quae maior est: pardons are not known unto us by the Authority of the Scriptures: but by the Authority of the Church of ●ome, and of the Popes, which is greater, than the Authority of the Scriptures.  
Therefore, M. harding, by this Doctors judgement, it was great folly to allege so many Scriptures for proof of your pardons. For here ye are taught in good sadness, that your pardons can never be proved by any Scriptures. It had been much better for you, to have alleged only the Pope's Authority.  
For that, 
The Pope's Pardonnes.  as your Sylvester teacheth you, far passeth all the Authority of the Scriptures.  
Roffensis saith, 
Roffensis contra Lutcherum. Polydor. De Inuentorib. Lib. 8. Cap. 1.  Ego respondeo, non satis certo constare, à quo primùm Indulgentiae tradi coeperint. Apud Priscos vel nulla, vel certè quàm rarissima fiebat mentio de Purgatorio. Quàm diu autem nulla esset cura de Purgatorio, nemo quaesivit Indulgentias. Nam ex illo pendet omnis Indulgentiarum aestimatio. Si tollas Purgatorium, quorsum Indulgentijs opus erit? Coeperunt Indulgentiae, postquàm ad Purgatorij Cruciatus aliquandiu trepidatum est. Thus I answer: It cannot well appear, from whom pardons first began. among the Old Doctors, and Fathers of the Church, there was either no talk at all, or very little talk of Purgatory. But as long as Purgatory was not cared for, there was no man that sought for pardons. For the whole price of pardons hangeth of Purgatory. Take away Purgatory, and what shall we need of pardons? pardons began, when folk were a little frayed with the pains of Purgatory.  
johannes Maior saith, 
johan. Maior, in 4. Sent. Disi. 20. quaest. 2.  De Indulgentijs pauca dici possunt per certitudinem, quia Scriptura de illis expressè non loquitur. Nam quod ditur Petro, Tibi dabo claves, etc. certum est, quò'd opor●er intelligere illam Authoritatem cum sale. Fatuae ergo & superstitiosae sunt quaedam Indulgentiae viginti millium annorum: of Pardonnes' little may be said of certainty: for the Scripture expressly saith nothing of them. touching that Christ saith unto Peter, Unto thee will I give the Keys etc. we must understand this Authority with a corn of Salt (otherwise it may be unsavoury). Therefore certain of the Pope's pardons, that promise twenty thousand years, are foolish, and superstitious.  
Your School Doctoures themselves were wont sommetime to say, 
Veselus.  Inuentio indulgentiarum est pia fraus, & dolus non malus, quò populus officioso errore trahatur ad pietatem: The devising of pardons is a Godly guile, and a hurtelesse deceit: to the intent, that by a devout kind of E●oure the people may be drawn to Godliness.  
Alphonsus de Castro saith, 
Alphons. de Castro. Li. 8. Indulgentiae.  Nulla res est, quam minùs apertè Sacrae Literae prodiderint: & de qua minus vetusti Scriptores dixerint. Non est mentio ulla de Indulgentijs: There is nothing that the Scriptures have less opened, or whereof the Old Learned Fathers have less written, than pardons. Of pardons (in the Scriptures and Doctoures) there is no mention.  
Of the shameless Merchandise, and sales hereof, many Godly men have complained. 
1. Timoth. 6. 2. Petri. 2.  Ye have turned godliness into gain: and, as S. Peter saith, Through covetousness, by feigned speech, ye have made Martes, and markets of the people. One of your own friends saith thus, 
Opus Tripart. coniunctum cum Concil. Lateran. Lib. 3. Cap. 8.  In multis Brevibus continentur tot Indulgentiae, ut boni Viri mirentur, unquàm de Conscientia Papae, vel alicuius boni viri potuisse illa procedere: In many of their Books there are contained so many days, and years of Pardonne, that good men marvel, that they could ever come out, by the Consent either of the Pope, or of any other god man.  
To conclude, 
August. In Epist. johan. Tracta. 1.  we will say with S. Augustine, Fratres, jesum Christum justum habemus Aduocatum apud Patrem. Ipse est propitiatio pro Peccatis nostris: Hoc qui tenuit, Haeresim non fecit: Hoc qui tenuit, Schisma non fecit. unde enim facta sunt Schismata? Cùm dicunt homines, Nos justi sumus: Nos Sanctificamus immundos: Nos iustificamus impios: Nos petimus: nos impetramus: My Brethera, we have jesus Christ the Righteous our Advocate with the Father. He is the Propitiation, or Pardonne for our sins. He that held this, never made Heresy: He that held this, never made Schism. For whereof do Schisms come? Hereof they come: when men say, (as now the Pope saith,) We are righteous: We do make Holy the unholy: We do justify the wicked: We do Pray: we do obtain.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 1.  
These men are wont to speak much of a certain secret Doctrine of theirs, & of their manifold & sundry readings. Let them therefore bring forth somewhat now, if they can, that it may appear, they have at least read, or do know somewhat. They have often stoutly noised in all corners, where they went, that all the parts of their Religion be very old, and have been approved, not only of the multitude, but also by the consent, and continual observation of all Nations, and times. Let them therefore once in their life, she we this their Antiquity: Let them make appear to the eye, that the things, whereof they make such a do, have taken so long, and large increase: Let them declare, that all Christian Nations have agreed by consent to this their Religion.  
Nay, nay, they turn their backs, as we have said already, and flee from their own Decrees, and have cut of, and abolished again within ashorte space, the same things, which but a few years before, themselves had established, for evermore, forsooth, to continue. How should one then trust them in the Fathers, in the Old Councils, and in the Words spoken by God? They have not, good Lord, they have not (I say) those things, which they boast, they have: they have not that Antiquity, they have not that Universality, they have not that Consent, neither of all places, nor of all times. And, though they have a desire rather to dissemble, yet they themselves are not ignorant hereof: yea, and sommetime also they let not to confess it openly. And for this cause they say, that the ordinances of the Old Councils, and Fathers be such, as may now and then be altered, and, that sundry and divers Decrees serve for sundry, and divers times of the Church. Thus lurk they under the name of the Church, and beguile silly creatures with their vain glozing. It is to be marveled, that either men be so blind, that they can not see this: or, if they see it, that they can be so patiented, so lightly, & so quietly to bear it.  

M. harding.  
Here is much a do, and as some say, great boast, and small roast: many words, little matter. The sense of these words (if I be not deceived) resembleth M. jewels challenging spirit, as like as an E We resembleth a sheep. What we can bring forth, we say not 
‡ It is good policy for him, that hath nothing to show, to hold his peace.  Neither think we it necessary at your request, to show, what we have read, and what we know. Boasting and bragging shows we leave to you: that you require, hath been sufficiently declared other wheres. All things are not to be said at all times. Yet two of your loud lies besides other that you make here, I will be so bold, as to discover. The decrees of the late Tridentine Council (for that is it that you mean) although they be not yet in all place most exactly observed, yet be they not repealed, cut of, and abolished again, as you say.  

* For trial hereof, consider only the words of Roffensis, Maior, and Alphonsus, alleged in the former Division.  And what a fowl lie is that other, where you say, that ourselves acknowledge and confess openly that the faith and Doctrine, which we hold, is not Ancient, and Universal, for times, places, and consent of all? What else mean we, when we challenge unto us and claim the Catholic Faith? But this is your accustomed slender Rhetoric, when proofs and arguments of truth fail you, to use the figure of impudent lying, and say, that we ourselves confess it to be true, which you impute unto us. What so ever you say in this place, we may of right return it ever to you. So we do, and so take you it, etc. And for aught that I can see yet, as your synagogue had of late the beginning, so it is like shortly to have an ending.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Of all these words, and others more, so vain, as many, there is not one word worth the answearinge. What affiance M. harding, and his friends have in their Antiquity, it may appear by the last Division.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 1.  
But, whereas they have commanded, that those Decrees should be void, as things now waxed too old, and that have lost their grace, perhaps they have provided, in their steed, certain other better things, and more profitable for the people. For it is a common saying with them, that if Christ himself, or the Apostles were alive again, they could neither better, nor more Godly govern God's Church, than it is at this present governed by them. They have put somewhat in their steed in deed: but it is chaff in steed of wheat, 
Hierem. 23. isaiah. 1.  as Hieremie saith: & such things, as, according to Esaies' words, God never required at their hands. They have stopped up, saith he, all the veins of the clear springing water, & have digged up for the people deceivable, & puddlelike pits, full of mire, and filth, which neither have, nor are able to hold pure water. They have plucked away from the people the Holy Communion, the Word of God, from whence all comfort should be taken, the true worshipping of God also, and the right use of Sacraments, and Prayer, and have geeven us of their own, to play withal in the mean while, Salt, Water, Oil, Boxes, Spittle, Palms, Bulls, jubilees, Pardons, Crosses, sensings, and an endless rabble of Ceremonies, and (as a man might term them with Plautus) pretty games, to make sport withal.  

M. harding.  
Rail and revel whiles ye will, the Church is governed by 
* But the Pope useth neither of them.  disciline. If Christ himself or his Apostles we alive again, the word, that is to say, 
‡ Untruths, without either measure, or regard of shame.  the Doctrine of our belief, no we preached and received in the Catholic Church, ‡ neither should be altered, ‡ nor could be bettered. ‡ For it is the same, he taught himself. And that we doubt not of it, according to his promise, he hath sent the holy Ghost, to inform the Church of all truth. 
Malach. 3. Psal. 118.  Remember you not, who said, I am God, 
* O folly. The Change is in you, and not in God.  and am not changed? again, that the word of God remaineth for ever?  
This being true, it is evident, that we have the sound and weighty wheat, which no persecution of tyraunces, and blasies of heretics, no contagion of evil manners, for these fourteen hundred years could either blow from the floor of our Lords barn, the Church, or corrupt. We have according to the Apostles counsel, 
Depositum 1. Tim. 6.  kept that hath been committed unto us. We have enjoyed the fountain of the water of life.  
Ye charge us soar, that we have plucked away from the people the holy communion, the word of God, the true worshipping of God, the right use of Sacraments, and prayer. Who so ever taketh these five away, wherein chief standeth our salvation, the same 
‡ The Gospel in your mouth.  is Antichrist. Were not that ye have already done so much for us, as the world may take you for impudent liars, we would not quietly bear so grievous a matter. But now, that ye have tried yourselves so false of your word, we little esteem it: your railing is no slander. Lastly concerning prayer, what hath been ordained by our holy forefathers 
* Untruth For your Barbarous unknown Prayers, to the time of the ancient learned Fathers, were never known.  of all ages, 
Christ's government no better, than the Popes.  directed with the spirit of God, for the maintenance and increase of it to God's honour, all that in few years by the instinct of Satan, to promote his Kingdom, ye have utterly abolished, and by wicked violence brought the people from 
‡ Untruths joined with open Blasphemy.  devotion to a careless idleness, from speaking to God with hearts and lips, to ‡ a spiritual dummesse, from prayers ‡ to chapters, from holy thinking to ‡ unprofitable harkeninge.  
Ye can not abide salt, water, oil, palm, the cross, incense, etc. no marvel. No more can not the devil, who possesseth you, and rideth you, and after his own will driveth you from truth, from Christian Religion, and from all Godliness. Were it so that your spirit could a way with those things, than were it not agreeing with his spirit. Until ye give place to the spirit of God, who may drive out of you the spiritie of Satan, we look to hear no better tidings of you.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Ye were somewhat angry, M. harding, when ye thus bestirred yourself. It pitieth me in your behalf. Christ, and his Apostles, ye say, never ruled the Church in better order, than it is now ruled by the Pope, and his Cardinals. Even so might they have said, that had turned the House of God into a Cave of thieves. One of your friends saith, 
Matth. 21. Latomus de utraque Specie. jacobus Andreae adversus Hosium, Pag. 70.  Apostolorum temporibus rudis adhuc erat Ecclesia: In the time of the Apostles, the Church as yet was rude, and Barbarous, and out of order. And, being afterward reproved for his blasphemous speech, he answered lewdly in his pleasance,   

Rudis, indigestaqueve moles.  
Others of you say, Christus in Coelo praesidet: Papa in Terris residet: Christ ruleth in Heaven: the Pope in Earth. another saith, 
Dis. 19 Sicomnes  Omnes Sanctiones Sedis Apostolicae sic accipiendae sunt, tanquam ipsius Divina voce Petri firmatae: All the Laws of the apostolic see of Rome must so be taken, as if they were confirmed by the Divine voice of Peter himself.  
An other saith, 
Andrea's Barbatius Siculus ad Bessarionem: Polydor. Vergil. de Inuentorib. Lib. 4. Cap. 9 Ceremoniar. Li. 1 Sect. 8. Cap. 6. Hierony. in Proverb. 7.  Sicut ostium regitur Cardine, ita Ecclesia Romana regitur Consilio Cardinalium: As the door is ruled by the hook, so is the Church of Rome ruled by the Counsel of Cardinals.  
Therefore the Pope himself saith thus unto them, Vos eritis Senatores urbis, & Regum similes, veri Mundi Cardines, super quos militantis ostium Ecclesiae voluendum, & regendum est: Ye shallbe the Senators of my City, and like unto Kings, the very books, and stays of the world, upon whom the very door of the Church militant must be turned, and ruled. Such are they, whom S. Jerome imagineth thus to say, Non est Vir in domo. Non est Christus Corporaliter in Ecclesia. Surgens enim à mortuis, Ascendit in Coelum: nobisque Ministerium gubernandae Ecclesiae, suam, videlicet, Domum reliquit: My Husband is not at home. (That is to say) Christ is not now Corporally in the Church. For, being risen from the dead, he is Ascended into Heaven: and hath left unto us the government of his Church: that is, the whole ordering of his House.  
True it is, as you say, 
Malach. 3. Psal. 118. Matth. 15.  God is one, and is not Changed. And his Word endureth for ever. But the Change is in you, and not in God. God's Word is the Word of Life: your Word is the Word of Vanity. God the Father hath not planted it: Therefore it shallbe plucked up by the roots. God saith by the Prophet Malachi: The lips of the Priest shall keep knowledge: 
Malach. 2.  and the people shall require the Law at his mouth. For he is the Angel of the Lord of Hosts. Vos autem recessistis de Via, etc. But you are gone back from the Way: you have offended many a one in the Law: you have broken the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of Hosts. And therefore have I made you to be despised.  
Ye have changed the most part of the Apostles Doctrine: And of all, that ever they ordained, ye have in a manner left nothing standing. S. bernard saith of your own Church of Rome, 
Reading of Chapters.  A planta pedis usque ad verticem Capitis, non est sanitas ulla: From the sole of the foot, unto the Crown of the head, there is not one whole place: 
Bernard. in Conuersione Pauli.  And yet ye bear us strongly in hand, that Christ, and his Apostles never ruled the Church in better order, than it is now ruled by the Pope, and his Cardinals.  
All the rest of your empty talk is answered sufficiently before. Yet one pang of your Eloquence. I may not in any wise leave untouched. Thus ye say, By the instinct of Satan, ye have brought the people from devotion, to careless idleness: from speaking to God with hearts, and lips, to a spiritual doumbenesse: from Prayers, to Chapters: from Holy thinking, to unprofitable hearkening. If I were not well acquainted with your speech, M. harding, I could not think, ye would so unadvisedly bestow your words. I doubt not, but even hereby it shall soon appear, whether of us hath wilfully broken the Apostles Orders, & refused the Godly Examples of the Holy Primitive Church of God. Ye tell us, that the Reading of the Scriptures unto the people, in the Church of God, is a Spiritual doumbenesse, and a thing unprofitable, as only devised of ourselves, and that, as you say, by the instinct of Satan, and never before, either known, or used by any Catholic Learned Father.  
Yet the Ancient Father Origen saith, 
Origen. in josua Homil. 15.  judaicarum Historiarum Libri traditi sunt ab Apostolis, Legendi in Ecclesijs: The Books of (the Old Testament, which are called) the stories of the jews, were delivered by the Apostles, to be read in the Churches. 
Dionylius Eccle. Hierar. Cap 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Dionysius saith, Deinde ordine habetur Sacrorum Librorum Lectio: After ward follow in order the Lessons of the Holy Books. justinus Martyr saith, Die Solis omnes, qui in oppidis, vel in agris morantur, unum in locum conveniunt: Commentariaque Apostolorum, vel Prophetarum Scripta leguntur. Deinde, is, qui praeest, admone● omnes, & horratur, ut ea, quae Lecta sunt, bona, imitentur. Deinde surgimus omnes, & comprecamur: Upon the sunday, the Christian people, that dwell in town, 
justinus Martyr Apologia. 2.  or Country, meet together in one place. There the Epistles of the Apostles, or the prophets writings are pronounced unto us. Afterward, he that is the Chief, or Minister, warneth, and exhorteth all the rest, that they will follow those good things, that they have heard readden. That done, we rise up all, and pray together. S Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian Lib. 2. Epist. 5.  Lector personat Verba sublimia: evangelium Christi legit: A Fratribus conspicitur: cum gaudio Fraternitatis auditur: The Reader soundeth out the high, and Heavenly Words: he readeth out the Gospel of Christ: He is seen of the Brethren: he is heard with joy of (all) the Brotherhood.  
The Fathers in the Council of Constantinople say thus, 
Concil. Constantinopo. 5. Actio. 1.  Tempore Diptychorum cucurrit omnis multitudo cum magno silentio circum circa Altar, & audiebant: At the time of Reading (of the Chapter) all the multitude of the people with great silence drew runde about the Anltare, or Communion Table, and gave ear.  
In the Council of Laodicea it is written thus, 
Concil. Laodice. Can. 16.  In Sabbatis evangelia cum alijs Scripturis legi convenit: Upon the Sabbath day it is convenient, that the Gospels, and other Scriptures be read (in the Church unto the people). 
Leo de Resurrectione Domini, Sermo 2.  Leo saith, Solennitati Sacratissimae Lectionis subiungatur exhortatio Sacerdotis: After the solemn Reading of the most Holy Lesson, let there follow the Sermon, or Exhortation of the Priest. S. 
Chrysostom. in Acta. Homil. 19  Chrysostom saith, Sta● Minister, & Communis Minister, & alta voce clamat. Post illam vocem Lector incipit Prophetiam Esaiae: The Minister, and Common Minister standeth up, and crieth out with loud voice (saying, keep silence, and give ear). After that, the Reader beginneth the prophesy of isaiah. S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. Lib 5. Epist. 20. johan. 5.  Non possum ego à me facere quicquam: sicut audio, & judico. Audistis Lectum: Ego non accuso vos: Moses vos accusat: Audistis Lectum: (Christ saith) I cannot do any thing of me self: As I hear, so I judge. Ye have heard it readden: I accuse you not: It is Moses, that accuseth you. Ye have heard it readden.  
S. Augustine saith, 
Reading of Chapters.  Audistis, cùm evangelium legeretur: Modò, cùm legeretur, si intenti fuistis Lectioni, Audistis: Audivimus in Lectione, quae Lecta est, Fratres dilectissimi: 
Aug. in Psal 3. August. in 50 Homil. Hom. 4▪ August. de Tempore. Sermo 2.  Ye heard, when the Gospel was read: Ye heard ere while, when it was read, if ye gave ear to the Reading: dearly beloved, we have heard in the Lesson, that hath been read.  
Hereby, I think, it may appear, that the Reading of Lessons, and Chapters, is no New Diusse in the Church of God.  
And yet will you tell us, M. harding, that all this is only a Spiritual doumbenesse, and an unprofitable Hearkeninge, brought in by the instinct of Satan, to promote his Kingdom? Or, if you dare so to tell us, must we believe you?  
Verily, 
Isidor. de Eccles. Offic. li. 1. ca 10.  Isidorus saith, Lectio est non parva audientium aedificatio. unde oporter, ut quando Psallitur, Psallatur ab omnibus: quando Oratur, Oretur ab omnibus: quandò Lectio Legitur, facto silentio, aequè audiatur à cunctis: The Lesson (in the Church) bringeth great profit to the hearers. Therefore when sing is, let all sing together: when Prayer is, let all Pray together: And, when the Lesson, or Chapter is read, let silence be made, and let all hear together. Tertullian saith, Coimus ad Literarum Divinarum Commemorationem. 
Tertullian. in Apologetico.  Fidem Sanctis Vocibus pascimus: Spem erigimus: Fiduciam figimus: We come together to the Reading of the Holy Scriptures: we feed our Faith with those Heavenly Voices: we raise up our affiance: we fosten our hope. Again he saith, 
Tertullian. ad Vxorem. Lib. 2.  Vbi fomenta Fidei de Scripturarum Lectione? Where is the feeding of Faith, that cometh by the open pronouncing, and Reading of the Scriptures?  
Origen saith, 
Origen. in Leviticum, Homil. 5.  Non fuisset Necessarium, Legi haec in Ecclesia, nisi ex his aedificatio aliqua audientibus praeberetur: It had not been Necessary, to have these things read in the Church, unless thereof might grow some profit to the hearers.  
Leo saith, 
Leo de Passione Domin. Serm. 19  Sacram Dominicae Passionis Historiam evangelica, ut moris est, narratione decursam, ita omnium vestrum arbitror inhaesisse pectoribus, ut unicuique audientium, ipsa Lectio quaedam facta sit vitio: I think, that the Holy story of our lords Passion, which we, as the manner is, have read unto you, is so fastened unto all your hearts, that the very hearing itself unto every of the Hearers is a kind of seeing. Chrysostom saith, The manner was, that before every such Lesson, or Chapter, the Minister should say unto the people, with a loud voice, Attendamus: Let us Mark. 
Chrysost. in Acta Homil. 19   
S. Augustine saith, Epistolae Apostolicae, non tantùm illis Scriptae sunt, qui tempore illo, 
August. Contra Cresconium. Li. 1 Cap. 9  quo scribebantur, audiebant, sed etiam nobis. Non enim ob aliud in Ecclesia recitantur: The Apostles Epistles were not written only to them, that heard them at the same time, when they were written, but also to us. For to none other purpose they are read openly in the Church.  
This therefore is no Spiritual Doumbenesse, M. harding: This is no unprofitable Hearkeninge: This is no instinct, or Work of Satan. S. Augustine saith, Vide Formicam Dei: Surgit quotidiè: Currit ad Ecclesiam Dei: Orat: Audit Lectionem: 
Aug. in Psal. 66.  Hymnum cantat: ruminat, quod audit: Apud se cogitat: recondit intùs grana electa de area: Behold Gods Emote: She riseth daily: She runneth to the Church of God: she Prayeth: She heareth the Lesson, or Chapter: She fingeth the Psalm: She cheweth, or remembreth, that she hath heard: She museth upon it within herself: And within she layeth up the Corns chosen from the floor.  
But your Churches, M. harding, are full, not only of Spiritual, but also of Corporal, and horrible doumbenesse. Of all, that is said, or done there, the poor Godly People knoweth nothing. S. Augustine saith, 
Reading of Chapters.  Si intellectum mentis removeas, nemo aedificatur, audiendo, quod non intelligit: If ye remove the understanding of the mind, 
Augu. de Genesi ad Literam. Li. 12. Cap. 8.  no man is edified, or taketh profit by hearing, that he cannot understand.  
Chrysostom saith, Perdiderunt audiendi laborem, & tempus. Nam qui non intelligit, 
Chrys. in Matth. Homil. 131.  quod audit, perdit, quod audit: They have lost both their labour in hearing, and also the time. For he, that understandeth not, that he heareth, loseth the thing, that he heareth. Therefore the Pope himself in his Pontifical, giveth this special Charge unto the Reader, 
In Pontificali.  Stude Lectiones Sacras distinctè, & apertè proferre ad Intelligentiam, & aedificationem Fidelium: endeavour thee self to pronounce the Holy Lessons (or Chapters) distinctly, and plainly (not to a Spiritual doumbenesse, but) to the understanding, and profit of the faithful.  
Touching the Prayers, that the simple people maketh in a tongue unknown, Christ saith, 
Matth. 15.  This people honoureth me with their lips: But their hearts are far from me.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 2.  
In these things have they set all their Religion, teaching the people, that by the same God may be duly pacified, Spirits be driven away, and men's consciences well quieted.  

M. harding.  
What shall I say to all this, but that ye lie? I would say, as the manner is, Saving your worships: but that your often and unshamefast lying hath quite taken away from you all opinion of honesty. All Christ's Religion which we profess, consisteth not in these things, 
* Untruth. For hereby ye profess to quiet men's consciences. Read the Answer.  neither by these be men's consciences quieted. By certain of these, evil and impure spirits be drived away in deed. Which here by sundry Ancient records and Testimonies I would declare to be most true, were it not well enough known by daily experience. But as for you, whereas neither Bread, nor Water, nor Cross driveth you away, it seemeth ye are worse to be conjured, than the devil himself. Many of your sect Catholic Princes have found so stubborn, as they could yet never rid their Countries of them, but by conjuration of fire.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
ye say, ye ye never sought to quiet men's Consciences by Oil, Water, Palms, etc. And therefore ye stand up a tipps toe, and in your familiar manner, cry out, ye lie. For short trial hereof, one example may suffice, in steed of many. Augustine Steuchus, 
Augu. Steuchus in Librum Numeror. Cap. 19  one of your special, and worthy Doctoures, saith thus, Aquas Sale, & Orationibus Sanctificamus, ut ad earum Aspersum nostra deleantur delicta: We hallow Water with Salt, and Prayers, that by the Sprinkelinge thereof our sins may be forgiven. 
sins forgiven by Holy Water.  Read your own Pontifical: and ye shall find in the hallowing of your Water, your Ashes, your Palms, your Candles, etc. this clause evermore in the end, Vt sint nobis ad Salutem Animae, & Corporis: That they may be to us to the Salvation of Body, and soul.  
Whereas in the end ye vaunt yourself of your Cruelty, 
In Pontificali.  and so pleasantly make Sport with the Blood of your brethren, take it not for ill, if I answer you with the Words of Solomon, 
Proverb. 11.  Viscera impiorum crudelia: The bowels of the wicked be always cruel. Therein, M. harding, standeth your greatest puissance. If ye were no better armed with Fire, and sword, than ye be with Scriptures, and Doctoures, no wise man would greatly fear your force.  
As for us, we may answer you now, as S. Cyprian sommetime answered thee Heathens: Nobis ignominia non est, pati à Fratribus, quod passus est Christus: 
Cyprian. Lib. 1. Epist. 3.  neque vobis gloria est, facere, quod fecit judas: It is no shame for us, to suffer of our Brethren the same violence, that Christ suffered: neither is it any praise for you, to do the same thing, that judas did.  
Tertullian saith unto your Fathers: 
Tertullian in Apologe●ico.  Crudelitas vestra, gloria nostra est: Semen est Sanguis Christianorum: Your cruelty is our Glory: The Blood of Christians is the seed of the Gospel. I pray God, all that innocent Blood, that hath been shed in this cause, be not required at your hands in the day of Wrath, and at the declaration of the just judgement of God. 
Roma. 2.     

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division. 1.  
For these, lo, be the orient colours, and Precious savours of Christian Religion: these things doth God look upon, and accepteth them thankfully: these must come in place to be honoured, & must put quite away the Institutions of Christ, & of his Apostles. And, like as in times passed, when wicked King jeroboam had taken from the people the right serving of God, & had brought them to worship the Golden Calves, lest perchance they might afterward change their mind, and slip away, geatinge them again to jerusalem to the Temple of God there, he exhorted them with a long tale, to be steadfast, saying thus unto them: O Israel, these Calves be thy Gods. In this sort commanded your God you should worship him. For it should be wearisome, and troublous for you, to take upon you a journey so far of, & yearly to go up to jerusalem, there to serve and honour your God: Even after the very same sort, when these men had once made the Law of God of none effect, through their own Traditions, fearing that the people should afterward open their eyes, & fall an other way, and should sommewhence else seek a surer mean of their Salvation, jesus, how often have they cried out, This is the same worshipping, that pleaseth God, and which he straightly requireth of us, and wherewith he will be turned from his wrath: that by these things is conserved the Unity of the Church: that by these all sins be cleansed, and consciences quieted: and that, who so departeth from these, hath left unto himself no hope of everlasting Salvation. For it were wearisome, and troublous (say they) for the people to resort to Christ, to the Apostles, and to the ancient Fathers, and to observe continually, what their will and commandment should be. This, ye may see, is to withdraw the people of God from the Weak Elements of the world, from the leaven of the Scribes and Phariseis, and from the Traditions of men. It were reason, no doubt, that Christ's Commandments, and the Apostles were removed, that these their devices might come in place. O just cause, I promise you, why that ancient, and so long allowed Doctrine should be now abolished, and a new Form of Religion be brought into the Church of God.  

M. harding.  
It should have become Scoggin, patch, jolle, Harry Pattenson, or Will Summer, to have told this tale much better, than your Superintendentships. And if ye would needs have played the part yourselves, it had been more convenient to have done it on the stage, under a vices cote, then in a book set abroad to the world in defence of all your new English Church. Ye shall never make any reasonoble man believe your scoffing tale. We esteem little your railing comparison, with your spiteful words, and so much devilish villainy.    

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division. 2.  
And yet, whatsoever it be, these men cry still, that nothing ought to be changed: that men's minds are well satisfied here withal: that the Church of Rome, the Church, which cannot err, hath decreed these things. For Sylvester Prieriàs saith, that the romish Church is the Squire, and Rule of Truth, & that the Holy Scripture hath received from thence Authority, and Credit. The Doctrine, saith he, of the Roman Church, is the infallible Rule of Faith, from the which the Holy Scripture taketh her force. And Indulgences, and pardons (saith he) are not made known to us by the Authority of the Scriptures, but they are known to us by the Authority of the Roman Church, and of the Bishops of Rome, which is greater, than the Scriptures. Pigghius also letteth not to say, that without the licence of the Roman Church, we ought not to believe the very Plain Scriptures: Much like as if any of those, that cannot speak pure, and clean Latin, and yet can babble out quickly, and readily a little some such Law Latin, as serveth the Court, would needs hold, that all others aught also to speak after the same way, that Mammetrectus, and Catholicon spoke many years ago, and which themselves do yet use in pleading in Court: for so may it be understood sufficiently, what is said, & men's desires may be satisfied: & that it is a fondness, now in the later end, to trouble the world with a new kind of speaking, and to call again the old fineness and eloquence, that Cicero, and Caesar used in their days in the Latin tongue. So much are these men beholden to the folly, & darkness of the former times. 
C. Plinius.  Many things, as one writeth, are had in estimation oftentimes, because they have been once dedicate to the Temples of the Heathen Gods: Even so we see at this day, many things allowed, & highly set by of these men, not because they judge them so much worth, but only because they have been received into a custom, and after a sort dedicate to the Temple of God.  

M. harding.  
Ye have never done with the Church of Rome. I cannot blame you. For so long as that standeth, without ye repent and turn, 
* So was Christ taken of the lindsays.  ye shall never be taken but for such as ye be, Schismatics, and Heretics. But alas poor souls, what think ye to overthrow that Church builded upon the rock 
‡ The foundation of the Church of God, is not Peter, but Christ.  Peter, against which hitherto neither tyrants, nor Heretics far passing you in learning, and honesty of common life, 
The Church above God's Word.  could ever prevail? Trow ye to extinguish that faith of the Roman Church, 
* Untruth. Fo● generally it●● contrary to 〈◊〉 Faith of 〈◊〉  which is the same that was the faith of Peter, 
Luc. 22.  for which Christ prayed, that it should never fail? Ye labour in vain. Well may Satan win you: the Church which our Lord prayed for, by you shall he never win. give over therefore your vain and wicked attempts. Trust not in the patches, that falsely ye allege out of canonists gloss, schoolmen, riminge poets, Heretics, and who so ever, be they never so bad. Some ignorant persons may ye deceive, whose sins deserve the same.  
What Sylvester Prierlât saith. I mind not here to discuss. 
‡ It is easil●● found in 〈◊〉 Book, 〈◊〉 Lutherum.  Neither where he saith, that you allege, have you thought good to tell us, lest. by perusing the place, we should take you in a lie, as we have almost in all your other allegations. The like sincerity you use in alleging Pighius. We bind ourselves neither to the words of Sylvester, nor of Pighius. If they err, what is that to us? Let them bear their own burden. If they tell truth, we believe them for truths sake. If otherwise, we leave that part for you to carp. If Sylvester Prierias said, that for points of belief, the Doctrine of the Roman Church is a squire to try their truth by: the same 
* A commandrie beside 〈◊〉 Text.  being well understanded is right true. Likewise if Pighius say, that the Roman Church showeth unto us, which be the approved and undoubted scriptures, and which be not: this is so true, as yourself (I suppose) will yield thereunto. As for that the scripture received from the Church of Rome Authority, credit, and force: 
‡ A proper Gloze.  if in your meaning you exclude God, that is your lie, not Syluesters sentence. If relation be made to us, that we ought not give credit unto it, 
* Vanity of Vanities: For the Scriptures were known, and believed, before there was any Church in Rome.  unless it had been showed to be holy scripture by the Roman Church, which is the true Church of Christ: in this sense, be it Sylvester, or who else so ever saith it, it is a true saying, and agreeable to S. Augustine, 
Contra Epist. Fundamenti. ca 5.  Ego evangelio non crederem, nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commueret Authoritas. I would not believe the Gospel, except the Authority of the Catholic Church moved me. And for that you allege out of him, touching indulgences, truth it is, the full, and whole knowledge of them is not plainly opened unto us, by express and evident words of Scripture, no more than the mystery of the blessed Trinity, baptizing of infants, and many other truths: but rather by the doctrine of the Roman Church.  
Where you tell us of Pighius, that he letteth not to say, that without the licence of the romish Church (for in that word you please yourself well) we ought not to believe the very plain scriptures: 
‡ It is no hard matter to find it, Read the Answer.  we will proclaim you a liar, until you show us, where he spoke so far beside reason, and learning. The holy Church doth not will us to stay from belief of the scriptures, until we have licence: but by all ways and means inviteth and stirreth us to believe the truth in the scriptures uttered.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The greatest weight hereof upon two of your Doctoures, Sylvester Prieriâs, and Albertus Pigghius. Whoes credit notwithstanding ye would feign otherwise save upright, yet here, as it seemeth, ye are content, for shame to give them over. We bind ourselves, ye say, neither to the words of Sylvester, nor of Pigghius. If they err, what is that to us? This short, and blunt answer, notwithstanding it seem to like well you, yet perhaps Prieriâs, and Pigghius it would not like. I see no great cause to the contrary, but either of them might as well renounce your Authority, and say of you, We are not bound, neither to M. hardings words, nor to his fellows.  
For that ye doubt the Truth of our allegations, read Sylvester Prieriâs Master of the Pope's Palace, in his Book entitled, 
Sylvester Prierias, contra Lutherum.  Contra praesumptuosas Martini Lutheri Conclusiones, de potestate Papae. His words there amongst others be these: Quicunque non innititur Doctrinae Romanae Ecclesiae, ac Romani ponlificis, tanquam Regulae Dei infallibili, à qua etiam sacra Scriptura robur trahit, & Authoritatem, Haereticus est: Who so ever leaneth not to the Doctrine of the Roman Church, and of the Bishop of Rome, as unto the infallible Rule of God, of which Doctrine the Holy Scripture taketh force and Authority, he is an Heretic.  
Again he saith, 
The Church above God's Word.  Authoritas Romanae Ecclesiae, Romanique pontificis maior est, etc. The Authority of the Roman Church, and of the Bishop of Rome is greater, (than the Authority of God's word).  
As for that, is here alleged of Pigghius, it is the very sound, and sense of the greatest part of his Common place, De Ecclesia. Of whoes judgement herein, M. Caluine writeth thus: 
Alb. Pigghius in locis Communib. De Ecclesia.  Pighius ait, Nullius Scripturae Authoritate, quantum libet Clarae, nostro quidem judicio, & evidentis, adversus Claram, consonantemque Orthodoxorum Patrum Sententiam, & adversus communem Ecclesiae Definitionem, aliquid credere cuiquam licere: Pighius saith, that noman may lawfully believe any thing, by the Authority of any Scripture, be the same, in our judgement, never so plain, and evident, against the clear, and agreeable judgement of the Catholic Fathers, and against the Common determination of the Church: By which he meaneth only the Church of Rome. Therefore, M. harding, it may please you now a little to spare your voice, and to stay your Proclamation.  
But, for as much as ye seem, so little to esteem these two Doctoures, Prieriâs, and Pigghius, being otherwise, not long sithence, the chief Leaders, and Captains of all your bands, ye may therefore join others to them, to better their credit, and to increase the Company. And, for as much as we speak of the Church of Rome, let us hear the judgement of a Cardinal of the Church of Rome, notwithstanding otherwise alleged before.  
Cardinal Cusanus therefore hereof saith thus, 
Nicol. Cusanus de Authoritate Ecclesiae, & Concilij supra & contra Scripture.  Haec est omnium sanè intelligentium Sententia, qui Scripturarum Authoritatem, & intellectum in Ecclesiae approbatione fundant: & non è converso, Ecclesiae● Fundamentum in Scripturarum Authoritate locant: Nulla sunt Christi praecepta, nisi quae per Ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt: Sequuntur igitur Scripturae Ecclesiam, & non è converso: This is the judgement of all them, that think rightly, that found the Authority, and understanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church: and not contrariwise, lay the foundation of the Church in the Authority of the Scriptures. There be no Commandments of Christ, but such only, as so be taken, and holden by the Church. Therefore the Scriptures follow the Church: but contrariewile the Church followeth not the Scriptures. 
johan. Maria Verractus. Editus est, Ann. 1561. Alb. Pigghius Hierar. li. 1. a. 2. Alb Pigghius in controversijs. De Ecclesia.  Likewise saith johannes Maria Verractus, Humiliter confitemur, Ecclesiae Authoritatem esse Supra evangelium? We do humbly confess, that the Authority of the Church is above the Authority of the Gospel. Likewise Albertus Pigghius saith, Apostoli quaedam Scripserunt: non ut Scripta illa praeessent Fidei, & Religioni nostrae, sed potiùs, ut subessent. Scripturae sunt Muti judices: Scripturae sunt veluti Cereus Na●us: The Apostles have written certain things: not that their said writings should rule our Faith, or Religion: but rather, that they should be under, and be ruled by our Faith. The Scriptures are doumbe judges: The Scriptures are like a Nose of wax.  
By these, and other like unreverent, and godless speeches, they seek to lead the poor simple deceived people from the Holy Scriptures, and Voice of God, to the Authority of their Church: by which Church they understand only the Pope, and his Cardinals.  
But ye say, These be the Priests of the House of Levi: The Pope is the judge for the time, 
Deuter. Cap. 17. Heruaeus, De potesta. Papae. ca 23  in the place, that our Lord hath Chosen. Some others of you sale, Papa est tota Ecclesia Virtualiter: The Pope is by Power, and virtue the whole Church. What so ever these shall happen to say, we may not serve from their judgement, neither to the Right hand, nor to the Left hand. Whereupon the Hebrew Gloze noteth thus, 
Nicol Lyra in Deuter. Cap 17.  Si dixerint tibi, quòd Dextra sit Sinistra, aut quòd Sinistra sit Dextra, talis Sententia tenenda est: Although they tell thee, that thy Right hand is thy Left hand: or that thy Left hand is thy Right hand, yet such a Sentence must be holden as good.  
S. Augustine, 
The Church above God's word.  ye say, holdeth hard of your side. He saith, Non crederem evangelio, nisi me Ecclesiae Catholicae Authoritas commoveret: I would not believe the Gospel, except the Authority of the Catholic Church moved me. These few poor words have been tossed of your part, and wroonge, and pressed to the uttermost, 
Augustin contra Epistolam Fundamen. Cap. 5.  to yield out that, was never in them. For hereby ye would feign prove, that the Authority of the Church, whereby ye evermore understand your Church of Rome, and none other, is above the Authority of God's Word: that is to say, that the Creature is above the creature, that made Heaven, and Earth.  
But what if S. Augustine, as he saith, I believe the Gospel because of the Church, have likewise said, I believe the Church because of the Gospel? Then, I trow, ye must turn your tale, and say, The Gospel is above the Church. His words be plain: 
August. In Psalmum. 57  Ex ore Veritatis Ecclesiam agnosco participem Veritatis: By the Mouth of (God, that is) the Truth, I know the Church, that is partaker of the Truth. 
Augustin. De unitate Ecclesiae, Ca 2.  Again he saith, Nolo, Humanis Documentis, sed Divinis Oraculis Ecclesiam Sanctam demonstrari: Ecclesiam quaerere debemus in Verbis Christi, qui est Veritas, & optim è novit Corpus suum: Ecclesiam sine ulla ambiguitate Sancta Scriptura demonstrat: 
Augustin. contra Cresconi. Grammat. Li. 1. Ca 33.  In Scriptures Sanctis Ecclesia manifestè cognoscitur: Ecclesiam, sicut ipsum Caput, in Scriptures Sanctis Canonicis debemus agnoscere: I would, the Church should be showed, not by the Decrees of men, 
Augustin. De unita. Ecclesiae, Ca 16.  but by the Heavenly Oracles, or Words of God: We must seek the Church in the Words of Christ, which is the Truth, and best knoweth his own Body: The Holy Scripture showeth us the Church without doubting: In the Holy Scripture the Church is plainly known: 
Augustin. eodem loco.  We must know the Church by the Holy Canonical Scriptures, as we know (Christ, that is) the Head.  
Likewise saith Chrysostom, 
Chrysostom. in Matth. Hom. 49.  Nullo modo cognoscitur, quae sit Vera Ecclesia, nisi tantummodò per Scripturas: It is not any ways known, which is the True Church of Christ, but Only by the Scriptures.  
And thus, for as much as we know, both Christ by the Church, and the Church by Christ, the one giving evidence to the other, by this reckoning, M. harding, and by your shifting of turns, we must sometimes place Christ above the Church, and sometimes the Church above Christ.  
Now be it, S. Augustine's mind was not, to commence an Action between Christ and his Church, in comparison of their Dignities, or for trial, and keeping of their bounds: or, to teach us, that the Truth of God taketh Authority of the Church: but only, to show us, that the Church is a witness to God's Truth. And certainly it hath great weight of persuasion, to move the Conscience of any man, to see so many kingdoms, & Countries to join together in the profession, and obedience of one Truth. And I doubt not, but even this day, many thousands are the sooner led, to humble themselves unto the Gospel of Christ, for that they see, the whole world, that is to say, the whole Church of God, is contented so willingly, & so humbly to embrace the same. David, to testify the Truth, 
Psalm. 18. Roman. 10. Psalm. 76.  and certainty of the Gospel, saith thus, The sound of the Apostles went out into all the Barthe, and the Words of them into the ends of all the World. This is the turning of the Right hand of God.  
Therefore S. Augustine saith unto Faustus the Heretic, 
Augustin. contra Faustum. Lib. 32.  Cur non potiùs evangelicae Authoritati, tam Fundatae, tam stabilitae, tanta gloria diffamarae, atque ab Apostolorum temporibus, 
Cap. 19  usque ad nostra tempora, per Successiones certissimas commendatae, te non subdis? Why dost thou not rather submit thee self unto the Authority of the Gospel, being so grounded, so established, Preached, and published with so great glory, commended, and delivered unto us by most certain Successions from the time of the Arostles, until our time?  
Likewise in this same place by you alleged, S. Augustine saith, 
The Church above God's woor de.  Ego non crederem evangelio, nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret Authoritas. Quibus ergo obtemperavi dicentibus, Credit evangelio, Cur eye non obtemperem dicentibus, Noli credere Manichaeo? I would not believe the Gospel, unless the Authority of the Catholic Church moved me. 
Augustin. contra Epist. Fundam. Ca 5.  seeing therefore I have obeyed them, saying to me, Believe the Gospel, why should I not also obey them saying unto me, Believe not Manichee?  
Thus the consent of the Church heareth witness to the Gospel: without which witness notwithstanding, the Gospel nevertheless were the Gospel still. Therefore Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in Matth. Hom. 49.  Si dixerint, in ipsis Veris Ecclesijs Christum apparuisse, nolite eis credere dicentibus ista dame: Quia non est digna Divinitatis meae notitia haec: If they shall tell you, that Christ hath appeared, yea even in the very True Churches, yet believe them not saying thus of me: For this is no meet knowledge for my Godhedde.  
To conclude, M. harding, we will say to you, as S. Augustine sommetime said to the Donatian Heretics, advancing their only Church in Aphrica, even as you now advance only your Church of Rome: 
August De unitate Ecclesiae, Ca 11.  Nos post vocem Pastoris nostri, per ora Prophetarum, per os proprium, per ora Euangelistarum nobis aperrissimè declaratam, voces vestras non admittimus, non credimus, non accipimus: After the voice of our Shepherd, uttered most plainly unto us by the mouths of the Prophets, by his own mouth, and by the mouths of the Evangelists, if ye bring us your own voices, we allow them not, we believe them not, we receive them not.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 1.  
Our Church, say they, cannot err. They speak that (I think) as the Lacedæmonians long sithence used to say, that it was not possible to find any Adulterer in all their Common Health: whereas in deed they were rather all Adulterers, and had no certainty in their Marriages, but had their wives in common amongst them all: Or, as the canonists at this day, for their bellies sake, use to say of the Pope, 
Summa Angelica, in dictione Papa.  that, for so much as he is Lord of all Benefices, though he sell for money, bishoprics, Monasteries, Priesthood, Spiritual Promotions, 
Theodoricus de Schismate.  and part with nothing freely, yet because he counteth all his own, he cannot commit Simony, though he would never so faíne. But how strongly, & agreeably to reason these things be spoken, we are not as yet able to perceive, except perchance these men have plucked of the whinges from the Truth, as the Romans in old time did proine, 
Plutarch.  and pinion their Goddess Victory, after they had once gotten her home, to the end, that with the same whinges she should never be able, to flee away from them again.  

M. harding.  
Toward the end of your Apology, Sir Defender, who so ever you be, that pieced it together, you do but trifle. Of like your stuff is expense. For here little say you, that you have not said already. Wherefore I crave Pardon of the Reader, if according to the slenderness of matters objected, my 
* This is good plain dealing. For in deed this Answer is very slender.  confutation seem also slender. Sir you do now but patch pieces together, which you have gathered out of your note Books, into the same infar●ed, some out of the canonists, some out of the Scoolemen, and them not of the greatest estimation, most of all out of Humanity books, wherein you be prettily seen. And that seemeth to be your chief profession. As for Divinity, there appeareth no great knowledge in you. What ye rehearse of the Lacedæmonians, it pertaineth to your own companies, no less, then to them, I mean only your Apostates, Monks, and Friars, Priests, and nuns.  
You find great fault in the canonists that be at this day, and name in your Margin Summa Angelica, the Author whereof died many years passed. If he, Theodoricus, what so ever he was, or any other canonist offend you, as for his bellies sake, speaking of the Pope, that should set your teeth anedge: what pertaineth that to us, who defend the Catholic Faith, not the sayings of every canonist? You were best, seeing you make so much ado with them, to Article their errors, and either write a railing Book against them, which ye 
‡ With M. hardings good instructions.  can easily do, or send one of your best learned superintendentes to Bononia, there in open school with disputations to confute them. And so doubtless ye shall either convert them, which were a worthy act: or prove yourselves fools, which were great pity.  
But to answer your objection, we say, first, that you allege Summa Angelica falsely. Nothing is found sounding to that you burden the Pope withal in the place by you quoted, in dict. Papa. next, whereas it is written in Summa Angelica, In curia Romana titulus de Simonia non habet locum, 
In dict. Simonia.  you, Sir Defender, either nor knowing what followed, or of malice abusing the place, have reported the same, as if it were precisely said without any distinction. Whereas in deed the self same Sum useth this distinction, saying, 
Ver. utrum actoritas.  Verum est in ijs quae sunt Simoniaca de iure positivo solùm: sed non in ijs quae sunt Simoniaca de iure divino. Whereby he meaneth that the Pope is not under the rules of Simony concerning 
* A worthy distinction. Hereby the Pope may sell bishoprics, and Benefices without Simony.  such laws and pains, as he himself, or his predecessors have made in that behalf. For they have made many things belonging thereto, as you may well know yourself, who are so prettily seen in the Canon Law, as it may appear by the often and cunning allegations which you bring out of the Gloss. But concerning 
‡ This kind of Simony standeth only in, selling of Orders, and Sacraments, etc.  that Simony, which properly is so called, the Pope is nolesse subject thereto by the true judgement of Summa Angelica, 
* Untruth shameless, as shall appear.  which you have shamefully belied, than any other man.  
You jest at God's blessed Truth always remaining in his Holy Church, and profanely resemble it to a bird proined and pinyoned, that it fly not a way. As though the Church kept truth with such policy, as the old Romans are feigned, to have kept their Goddess Victory. Well Sir, we tell you in sadness, we are assured of the Truth, that it is in the Church, and that it shall never depart from thence. And if ye call this, cutting away of her wings, that it never fly from the Church: we grant they be cut in such sort, as she shall keep the Church for ever as her own nest. And will you know who telleth us this? Even God himself, saying in his Prophet Isaiah to Christ of his Church: 
isaiah. 59  I will make this covenant with them, saith our Lord: My spirit which is in thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, 
‡ Full discreetly, and well applied: As if these words had been meant of the Pope, and his Successors.  shall not depart from thy mouth, and from the mouth of thy seed, and from the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith our Lord, from this time forth, for evermore.  
Against this truth, what so ever ye bring in reproof of Pope's lives, whom not withstanding moste impudently ye bely, what undiscrete sayings, or flatteries so ever ye burden the canonists with, all turneth to nothing. The Truth remaineth unshaken: your spirit of lying, scoffing, and malice thereby is discyfred.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, ye say, Sir Defender is prettily seen in Humanity: For that, ye say, seemeth to be his chief profession. Verily, M. harding, We are well pleased, to take such, and so much learning, as you may spare us. We contend only for Truth, and not for Learning. What so ever our Learning be, if it may please God, to use it to his Glory, it shallbe sufficient, be it never so little. How be it, had you not had some good liking in your own Learning, ye would not upon so simple occasions have upbraided others.  
touching that, 
The Pope cannot commit Simony.  sundry of your Doctors have said, the Pope cannot commit Simony, first it shallbe necessary in that behalf, to consider the state, and practise of the Church of Rome. S. bernard, writing unto Pope Eugenius, saith, Limina Apostolorum Ambitio iam plùm terit, 
Bernardus de Consideratione. Li. 3.  quàm Devotio. Vocibus Ambitionis vestrum toto die resultat Palatium: Ambitio in Ecclesia per te regnare molitur: The Apostles Entries, or Gates in Rome, are now more worn with Ambition, then with Devotion. All the day long your Palace ringeth with the sound of Ambition. By thy means, Ambition seeketh to reign in the Church of God. Again he saith, 
Bernardus in Conuersione Pauli. Sermo. 1. Dè Civitate Dei Li. 18. Cap. 22. vives.  Sacri gradus dati sunt in occasionem turpis Lucri: & quaestum aestimant Pietatem: The Holy Degrees, or Ecclesiastical rooms are geeven over to occasion of filthy gain: and the same gain they count Holiness. Ludovicus vives saith, Romae cùm omnia propè vendantur, & emantur, nihil tamen agas sine Lege, ac Formula, atque evam Sanctissimi juris: At Rome, not withstanding all things be bought, and sold, yet may ye do nothing there without Form, and Order, and that of most Holy Religion.  
Your own Gloze saith, 
In Sexto De Electione & Elect. potest. Fundamenta. In Glossa.  Roma est Caput avaritiae. Ideò omnia ibi venduntur: Rome is the Head of Covetousness. Therefore all things there are bought, and sold. Where as also johannes Andreae, your great canonist, noteth this Verse, alluding to the name of Rome, Roma manus rodit: quos rodere non valet, odit.  
Durandus saith, 
Durandus de modo Celebrandi Concil. Ti. 20.  Simony so reigneth in the Church of Rome, as though in deed it were no sin. To be short, these two Veries were commonly spread of Pope Alexander, 
Vendit Alexander claves, Altaria, Christum.  
Vendere iure potest: Emerat ipse priús. 
Musculus in johan. Cap. 6.    
Pope Alexander maketh sale of his Keys, of his altars, and of Christ himself. Well may he less these things: for he himself paid well for them.  
Notwithstanding, ye doubt not, but all this, by a pretty soary Distinction, may soon be excused. For thus ye say: Verum est in ijs, quae sunt Simoniaca de lure Posiivo solùm: 
Summa Angeli. in Simonia.  Sed non in ijs, quae sunt Simoniaca de lure Divino. Whereby, ye say, the author meaneth, that the Pope is not under the Rules of Simony, concerning such Laws, & pains, as he himself, or his Predecessoures' have made, and provided in that behalf. And therefore, as your modest manner is, ye say, we have falsely alleged, and shamefully belied Summa Angelica. But why do you not better open the several parts of your Distinction? Why do ye not better tea● he us to understand, what is Simony by Law Positive: and what is Simony by the Law of God? And why do ye not declare each part by plain Examples? seeing you thus to steal away in the dark, we have some cause to doubt your dealing.  
How be it, to make the matter plain, your own Gloze saith thus, Simoniaca desui Natura, 
Extra. De Officio judicis Delegati. Ex part N. In Clossa.  sunt quae Novo, aut Vereri Testamento prohibita sunt: ut, Emere, vel Vendere Sacramenta, Simoniaca de jure Positivo, sunt, quae solùm sunt Spiritualia ex Constitutione Ecclesiae: ut sunt Tituli Beneficiorum Ecclesiasticorum etc. These things are Simoniacal of their own Nature, that are forbidden in the Old, and New Testament: as to buy, or sell Sacraments. These things are Simoniacal by Law Positive, which are Spiritual only by the ordinance of the Church. Such are the Titles of all Ecclesiastical Benefices, and Dignities: Ac be bishoprics. Deaneries, Abbeys, Archedeaconries, etc. Thus, M. harding, if your Pope sell Sacraments, which will yield him but little money, He may be charged with Simony. 
The Pope cannot commit Simony.  But if he sell bishoprics, Deaneries, Abbeys, Archedeaconries, Prebends, Personages, never so many, yet by the shift of your pretty Distinction, noman may charge him. For all these things are Spiritual, only by the Pope's own Positive Law, that is to say, by the Ordinance of the Church. And think you not, so good a Distinction was well worth the finding out? One of your own Company, speaking hereof, saith thus: O Petre, 
Aureum Speculum.  quantam animarum multitudinem cateruatim transmisit, & transmittit ad Infernum haec Superstitialis, & Damnanda Distinctio? Multis est occasio, & viam aperit and ruinam Damnationis aeternae: O Peter Peter, how many Souls hath this Superstitious, and Damnable Distinction sent by heaps, and yet doth daily send into Hell? It is an occasion unto many, and openeth the way unto the fall of everlasting Damnation.  
To make the matter plain, 
ff. De Offi. praeroris. L. Barbarius. Colum. 2.  Baldus saith, Simonia non cadit in Papam recipientem: Though the Pope take money, yet no Simony can touch him. In like sort saith his fellow Bartolus, Papa non dicitur facere Simoniam, conferendo Beneficia, 
ff. Eod. Titulo. Ead. L. Bartolus.  & Dignitates, accepta Pecunia: The Pope is not said, to commit Simony, although he take Money for the Benefices, and Dignities of the Church.  
Theodoricus saith, Papa non potest committere Simoniam. Sic tenent juristae. 
Theodoricus De Schismate inter Vrban. & Clement. Lib. 2. Ca 32.  Quia Simonia excusatur per Authoritatem eius: The Pope cannot commit Simony. So hold the canonists. For Simony by his Authority is excused. Felinus' saith, Ista Glosa videtur dicere, quód Papa non committit Simoniam in recipiendo pecuniam pro collatione Beneficiorum: ex quo non ligatur proprijs Constitutionibus. Tamen Moderni tenent indistinctè, quòd Papa non involuatur Crimine Simoniae: 
Felinus de Officio judicis delegati. Ex part. N.  Et ita ego teneo: Et sic est servanda communis opinio. Ergo Papa potest dictam prohibitionem Simoniae firmatam in universali Ecclesia, limitare respectu Apostolicae Sedis. Et si diceres, Requiritur in talibus apparens causa, dico, hîc esse causam apparentem. Nam cessant tali redditu, qui maximus est, attenta hodierna Tyrannide, Sedes Apostolica contemneretur: This Gloze seemeth to say, that the Pope committeth not Simony, receiving money for the bestowing of Benefices: for as much as the Pope is not bound to his own Constitutions. Yet now adays the lawyers hold, without any such Distinction, (of Law Positive, and Law of God) that the Pope cannot in any wise come within the danger of Simony. And so I me self do hold: and so the common opinion must be holden. 
A just, and a reasonable cause, wherefore the Pope may sell bishoprics, Deaneries, Abbeys etc. Extra De Simonia, Ca 1. Numero. 6. Fol. 18. Abb. Archidiacon. in Tract. De Haeresi. ver. Et quia tanta est.  Therefore, notwithstanding the Law that forebiddeth Simony, take place in the whole Universal Church, yet in respect of the apostolic See of Rome, it may be restrained. But thou wilt say, In such cases there ought to be some apparent cause. I tell thee, that there is a cause apparent. For this revene we (of Simony) which is very great, being once cut of, considering the Tyranny, that now is, the apostolic See would be despised. By this authority it appeareth, The Pope is not able to maintain his Estate, and Countenance, nor to save all things upright, without Simony.  
Panormitane saith, Etsi Papa accipiat pecuniam pro collatione alicuius Praelaturae, aut Beneficij, tamen Dominus Cardinalis ait, Non committitur Simonia: notwithstanding the Pope take money for the bestoweinge of a Bishopric, or of a Benefice, yet my Lord Cardinal saith, there is committed no Simony. Archidiaconus Florentinus saith, Papa recipiendo pecuniam, non praesumitur animo vendendi recipere: Sed ut illa pecunia ad usum suum convertatur: cùm Papa sit Dominus Rerum Temporalium, per illud dictum Petri, Dabo tibi Omnia Regna Mundi: 
The devils Words alleged under the name of S. Peter.  The Pope receiving money (for bishoprics, or Benefices) is not thought to take it by way of sale: but only, to turn the same money to his own use. For the Pope is Lord of all worldly goods, as it appeareth by the words of Peter (which woo● des notwithstanding Peter never spoke: for they were spoken by Satan) Unto thee will I give all the kingdoms of the World. 
The Pope cannot commit Simony.   
Again Felinus saith, Quod datur Papae datur Sacrario Petri: nec est proprium Papae: Sed prodest danti, tanquam facienti opus pijssimum: What so ever is geeven to the Pope, 
Felinus De Offi. judicus delega. Ex part. N.  (for Bishopric, or Benefce, by way of Simony) it is geeven to S. Peter's Treasury. Neither is it the Popes own several goods. But it is available to the giver, as unto one, that doth a most Godly deed. Such a special grace hath the Pope. Of most devilish Vice, 
The Pope changeth Vice into Virtue.  he is able to make most godly Virtue.  
Hostiensis saith, Papa potest vendere Titulum Ecclesiasticum, ut Episcopatum, Abbatiam, etc. The Pope may sell any Ecclesiastical Title, or Dignity, as a Bishopric, or an Abbey, without danger of Simony.  
But, 
Extra De Simonia. Ca 1. Hostien.  what speak we of the Pope? Your Cardinals themselves, by your favourable Constructions, and godly orders, are likewise Privileged, to commit Simony, safely, and freely, & without blame. Panormitane saith, Cardinalis, pro Palafreno à nobili viro recepto, 
Extra. De simnia, Eisi questiones  non praesumitur committere Simoniam: A Cardinal, for receiving a palfrey of a Noble Man, (for a Benefice, or a Bishopric) is not thought to commit Simony.  
Thus, whereas Christ drove Buyers, and Sellers out of the Church, you by your proper Distinctions, have received in Buyers, and Sellers, and thrust out Christ. 
Hieronymus.  S. Jerome saith, Per Nummularios significantur Beneficij Ecclesiastici venditores: qui Domum Dei faciunt Speluncam Latronum: By the Exchangers are signified the Sellers of Ecclesiastical Benefices: which make the House of God, a Den of thieves. 
1. Quaest. 1. Eos qui.  In your own Decrees it is written hus, Tolerabilior est Macedonij Haeresis, qui asserit, Spiritum Sanctum esse servum Patris, & filii. Nam isti faciunt Spiritum Sanctum servum suum: The Heresy of Macedonius, that said, the Holy Ghost is Servant, and slave to the Father, and to the Son, is more tolerable, then is the Heresy of these simonistes. For these men make the Holy Ghost their own Servant.  
Yet, ye say, ye are well assured, that the Truth is in the Church of Rome, and shall never depart from thence, notwithstanding any disorder, or fault whatsoever, there committed. And for proof thereof, ye allege, as ye say, the Words of God himself in the Prophet isaiah. 
Esaie. 59  All be it, in that whole Prophet, there is not one word expressly mentioned of the Church of Rome. Such a fantasy, as it appeareth, was sometimes in the Heretics, called the Manichees. For thus they said, 
Augustin. De Natura Boni, Ca 46.  A Principibus Gentis Tenebrarum Lumen, ne ab ijs aufugeret, tenebatur: The Princes of the Nation of Darkness held fast the Light, least it should flee from them. For even so doth the Pope, and his Cardinals hold the Truth, as the Princes, or Powers of Darkness held the Light. It was hard dealing for you, to bind Christ in Recognisance, not to depart from the Pope: ye should rather have bound the Pope, not to depart from Christ.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronym. in Michaeam. Ca 4.  Prophetae Jerusalem non habent in ore Prophetiam: Et in Domino requiescunt, & dicunt: Non venient super nos mala. Quorum causa Speculatorium Dei hostili aratro dividitur: Et locus, quondam pacis, ruinis plenus fit: & Templum Domini in vepres, spinasque convertitur, & est Habitaculum bestiarum: The Prophets of Jerusalem have never a word of prophesy in their mouths. Yet they reaste themselves upon the Lord, and say, There shall no evil come upon us. For thene sakes the Watch Tower of the Lord is turned up with the enemies Pleughe: the place of peace is full of ruin: the Temple of the Lord is turned into Briars, and Thorns: and is become a stable of wild beasts.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 2.  
But what if jeremy tell them, as is afore rehearsed, that these be Lies? What if the same Prophet say in an other place, that the self same men, 
Hieremi. 12.  who ought to be Keepers of the vinyeard, have brought to nought, and destroyed the lords vinyeard? How if Christ say, that the same persons, who chiefly ought to have a care over the Temple, 
Matthae. 21.  have made the lords Temple a den of thieves?  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here come you in with your whatiffes, which commonly you use, when other Rhetoric faileth you. We tell you plainly without any iffes, that 
* Learnedly proved.  jeremy meant of you, and such as you be, and calleth your whole new fangled Doctrine, Verba mendacij, the words of lying, earnestly giving warning, that men give no credit to them. His other rebuke pertaineth also to you. When were ever such thieves in the Church of God, as ye are?    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 1.  
If it be so, that the Church of Rome cannot err, it must needs follow, that the good luck thereof is far greater, than all these men's policy. For such is their Life, their Doctrine, and their Diligence, that for all them, the Church may not only err, but also utterly be spoiled, and perish. No doubt, if that Church may err, which hath departed from God's Word, from Christ's Commandments, from the Apostles Ordinances, from the Primitive Church's Examples, from the Old Fathers, and Councils Orders, and from their own Decrees, and which will be bound within the compass of none, neither Old, nor New, nor their own, nor other folks, nor Man's Law, nor God's Law, than it is out of all question, that the romish Church hath not only had power to err, but also that it hath shamefully, and most wickedly erred in very deed.  

M. harding.  
A man would have thought, you would have brought some substantial Argument, whereby to prove, that the Church erreth. Neither make you excuse in that, you speak of the Roman Church. 
The Church of Rome is the whole Catholic Church.  In this account we make no difference between the Roman Church, and the Church. But all your proofs depend upon your iffes, which being denied, you have no more to say. No doubt (say you) if that Church may err, which hath departed from God's Word, from Christ's Commandments, etc. then it hath erred in very deed. But Sir, what if a man deny your supposal, and stay you in your first if? What have you to prove it? All that you have said hitherto. We know, and of little force it is. But no doubt, say you, if that Church may err, which hath departed from God's Word, etc. Yea forsooth, if all iffes were true, then if Heaven fell, we should catch Larks. And if a bridge were made between Dover and Calys, we might go to Boleine a foot, as William Summer once told King Henry, if it be true, that I have heard say.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here in nothing else, but only the Canonization of poor William Summer. While your Books, M. harding, shall live, all his sage saws shall never die.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 2.  
But say they, ye have been of our Fellowship, but now ye are become foresakers of your Profession, and have departed from us. It is true: We have departed from them, &, for so doing, we both give thanks to Almighty God, & greatly rejoice on our own behalf. But yet for all this, from the Primitive Church, from the Apostles, and from Christ we have not departed. True it is: We were brought up with these men in darkness, and in the lack of the knowledge of God, as Moses was brought up in the Learning, & in the bosom of the Egyptians. We have been of your Company, 
Tertull. in Apologetico.  saith Tertullian, I confess it: and no marvel at all: For, saith he, men be made, and not borne Christians.  

M. harding.  
We say, (as ye report) that ye have been once of our Fellowship, but now ye are become Apostates and foresakers of your Profession, 
By this whole discourse, Christ, and his Apostles may be condemned.  and have wickedly departed from us. By the name of us, we mean not some one particular company, but Christ's Catholic Church. We say of you, as S. John said of the like, 
1. joan. ●.  whom he calleth Antichrist's: Ex nobis exierunt, sed non erant ex nobis. Nam si fuissent ex nobis, permansissent utique nobiscum: They are departed from out of us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they had doubtless remained still with us.  
But what is your answer hereunto? It is desperate, foolish, and lying. first, ye confess the thing, and not only that, but also thank God for it, and greatly rejoice in it. And therein ye follow the worse sort of Sinners, 
Proverb. ●.  of whom Solomon saith, Laetantur cùm malè fecerint, & exultant in rebus pessimis: They be glad when they have done evil, and rejoice in the worst things that are. Ye have divided the Church of God, ye have rent our lords net, ye have cut his whole woven cote, which the wicked Soldiers, that Crucified him, could not find in their hearts to do. Dionysius Alexandrinus, writing to Novatus the great Heretic, who did as ye have done, saith thus unto him, as Eusebius reciteth, 
Eccles. Hisit. Lib. 6. Ca 5. in Graecis.  whereby ye may esteem the greatness of your crime: Thou shouldest have suffered what so ever it were, that the Church of God might not be divided. And martyrdom suffered for that the Church should not be divided, is no less glorious, then that which is suffered for not doing Idolatry. Yea in mine opinion it is greater. For there one is martyred for his own only Soul, and here for the whole Church. Thus it followeth, that by your Apostasy, and by your dividing of God's Church, ye have done more wickedly, 
‡ A good excuse of Idolatry.  then if ye committed Idolatry.  
But yet for all this, (say they) from the Primitive Church, from the Apostles, and from Christ we have not departed. What can be said more foolishly? Why Sirs, 
* Yes verily: Even as the House of God, and the Cave of thieves were all One Temple: Matthae. 21.  is not the Primitive Church and this of our time one Church? Doth it not hold together by continual Succession till the worlds end? What, hath Christ more Churches than one? Is the Primitive Church quite done, and now must there begin a new? Is not Christ, his Apostles, and all true believers, in what time or place so ever they live, his one mystical Body, whereof he is the Head all other the members? As Christ is one, the Holy Ghost one, one Faith, one Baptism, one Vocation, one God: so is the Church one, which began at the first man, and shall endure to the last: whereof the living part on earth before the coming of Christ into Flesh, was sometime brought to small number: after his coming, and after that the Apostles had Preached and spreadde the Gospel abroad, the number neither was ever, nor shallbe other then great (though sometime accounted, small in respect of the unbelievers) until the coming again of the Son of Man, 
Luc. 1●.  at what time he shall scantly find Faith, specially that which worketh by Charity, in the Earth. Against which time busily ye make preparation.  
For some part of excuse of your forsaking the Church, ye say, ye were brought up with us in darkness, and in the lack of knowledge of God, as Moses was among the Egyptians: For that ye bring out of Tertullian, helpeth you nothing at all. I pray you Sirs, what darkness mean ye? Speak ye of Sin? We excuse not ourselves. But when took ye out the beam of your own eyes, that ye espy the mote of our eye? It were well ye proved yourselves honest men, before ye required us to be Angels. If ye mean the darkness of ignorance, as peradventure ye do, and the lack of knowledge of God: Now that ye are departed from us, and have set chair against chair, (I see not cause why to say, Altar against Altar) what more and better knowledge of God have ye, than we have, and ever have had? Do we not know the Articles of our belief? Tell us, which do we lack? This is life everlasting (saith our Saviour in the Gospel) to know thee God alone, and whom thou haste sent jesus Christ. 
joan. 17. Matth. 16.  So far as God lighteneth our understanding with the Supernatural 
Here M. harding layeth out his heaps of Learning.  light of his grace, this much we know. For which Peter the Son of jona was accounted blessed of Christ, the same we sin full Papists through God's grace, also know and confess. The Commandments of God we know: what is good, what is evil, which be sins, which be Virtues, what is to be followed, what is to be shunned, so far as is behoveful, we be not ignorant.  
What is the darkness then, for which ye would needs be gone from us? And what is that worthy knowledge ye have won by your departure? Tell us, that we may bte the Books, and go to school with you. Truly without ye have some hidden and secret knowledge, which ye have not uttered to the world hitherto, as we believe ye have not, being such boasters as ye are: we see little cause, ye should twit us of ignorance, and brag of your own knowledge. This we see full well, they that run away from us to your side, be they Monks or Friars, Tinkers or Tapsters, Cobblers or Bodgers, white or black, by and by in your synagogues they be great Rabbins. And ye the superintendentes admit them to be your Ministers and Preachers of the word, and tell them they can do well, and they believe no less themselves. But the people take them for such, as they knew them before they took such degree, and many times for their good behaviour, they foregete their Holy ministery, and christian them by their common name, which was not given them at the font. Yet all this proveth not either our ignorance, or your marvelous and rare knowledge. Neither shall ye ever be able to prove to any man of learning and judgement, that in any liberal sciences, or right knowledge of the Scriptures, ye are comparable to the learned men of the Catholic Church. Though about fifty years paste and upward for a space, the studies of eloquence and of tongues were intermitted, yet then and before those times was there no small number of men, who had profound knowledge of all good Arts, and specially of the Holy Letters. I report me to Thomas Walden, who very learnedly confuted the Heresies of your great Grandfather john Wicklef, to Alcuinus in the great Charles time, to Beda before that, all three English men, to Anselme and Lanckfrancke Bishops of England, though strangers borne, to S. Thomas of Aquine, S. bernard, Rupertus, and hundreds more, which here is no place to reckon. Were not they, by confession of all, great Clerks? do not the best learned of our time, in obscure matters fetch light of them? To say the Truth, in comparison of their clear light, your ill savoringe snoffes may scantly seem to yield a dark smoke. Many talk of your painted sheath, who, were they learned in deed, would soon perceive neither that to be very fresh and gay: for as for your sword, what rusty and beggarly met all it is, the wiser part of the world seeth. 
‡ A very Learned, and a worthy Conclusion. But woe be to them, that call Light Darkness, and Darkness Light: isaiah. ●.  Therefore ye shall do well, Sirs, to speak no more of the darkness and ignorance of the Catholic Church, and to boast less of your great cunning, and knowledge.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Your head was very idle, M. harding, when it could so easily yield us such idle talk. If ye think it in no case to be lawful, to depart from them, what so ever they be, that bear the show, and countenance of the Church, then must ye needs condemn the Apostles, and Prophets, and most specially Christ himself. But let us consider, from what company we are departed. So may the causes of our departure the better appear. For the Pope himself saith not nay, but, upon just considerations, any Church may leave the Church of Rome. 
Departing from the Church of Rome.  His own words be these, Nulli agere licet, sine discretione justitiae, contra Disciplinam Romanae Ecclesiae: Without discretion of Justice, it is lawful for no man, to do any thing contrary to the order of the Church of Rome. By this the Popes own Decree, 
Dist. 12. Non Decit. In Rubric.  with discretion of justice, it is lawful to do contrary to the Orders of the Church of Rome.  
But, for a short, and general view of that whole Church in this behalf, S. bernard saith thus, 
Bernardus in Synodo Remensi.  Parum est nostris Pastoribus, quòd non servant nos, nisi & perdant. Non parcunt suis, qui non parcunt sibi, Perimentes pariter, & Pereuntes: It is not sufficient for our Bishops, that they save us not, unless they also do destroy us: sparing not themselves, they spare not their people. They do both perish themselves, and kill others. 
In eadem Synod.  Again he saith, Non custodiunt hoc tempore Sponsam, sed perdunt: Non custodiunt Gregem Domini, sed mactant, & devorant: They keep not this day, the Spouse of God, that is, his Church, but they destroy her: They keep not this Flock, but they kill, and devour. He that writeth, Paralipomena Vrspergensis, in the story of the Council of Constance, saith thus, 
Paralipom. Vrspergen. Pa. 396.  Spiritum extinguebant: Prophetias aspernabantur: Christum in Membris suis persequebantur: Eratque planè Persecutrix Ecclesia: They oppressed the Spirit of God: they defied the Voices of the Prophets: they persecuted Christ in his Members. And in deed the Church was geeven to work persecution.  
Aeneas Silvius, 
Aeneas Sylui. in Epist. ad Casparem Schlickium. Paralipom. Vrspergen. in Clemen. 5.  that afterward was Pope Pius. 2. saith, Refriguit Charitas, & Fides omnis interijt: Charity is waxed cold, and all Faith is dead.  
In the life of Pope Clemens. 5. it is written thus: Hic fuit Publicus Fornicator. Ab eo tempore defecit omnis Disciplina, & Religio in Cardinalibus: & tres Radices vitiorum, Superbia, avaritia, Luxuria, validissimè dominantur: This Pope was an open Whore master. From that time forward, all kind of Discipline, and Religion decayed in the Cardinals: and three roots of vices, Pride, Avarice, and Lechery, mightily bore the sway.  
Antonius Marinarius, 
In Concil. Trid. Antonius Marinarius.  at your late Chapter at trident, saith thus of the Church of Rome, Si evangelica Fides nostrae vitae Regula esset, re ipsa Christiani essemus. Nunc Titulo, & Ceremonijs vocamur Christiani: If the Faith of the Gospel were a Rule unto our life, then should we be Christians in very deed. As now, by Titles, and Ceremonies, we bear only the name of Christians.  
At the same Chapter, the Bishop of Bitonto said thus, as I have reported before: 
Concil. Trident. Episcopus Bitontinus.  Quibus turpitudinum Monstris, qua sordium Coll●ute, qua pest non sunt foedati, non corrupti in Ecclesia Sancta, & populus, & Sacerdos? A Sanctuario Dei incipite: si ullus iam pudor, si ulla pudicitia, si ulla superest bene vivendi vel spes, vel ratio: With what Monsters of Filthiness, with what Vileness, with what Pestilence be they not corrupted, and defiled in the Holy Church (of Rome), as well the Priest, as the People? Begin even with the Sanctuary of God: if there be any Shame, if there be any regard of Honesty, if there be any Hope, or way to live well.  
another saith, 
Francis. Zephyrus in Apologeticum Tertulliani.  O nos miseros, qui Christiani dicimur. Genres agimus sub nomine Christi: Miserable are we, that are called Christians. We live as Heathens, under the name of Christ. another saith, O lugenda Roma, quae nostris Maioribus clara Patrum Lumina protulisti: nostris temporibus, monstrosas tenebras, 
Arnulphus, aut Bernardus in Concil. Remen. Petrar. in Rithmis Italicis: Schola di Errori: è Tempio di Eresia.  futuro saeculo famosas, offadisti: O miserable Rome, which in the time of our Elders, haste brought forth the lights of worthy Fathers: but in our days, haste brought forth Monstrous Darkness, shameful, and slanderous to the time to come. Petrarcha calleth Rome, a School of error, and a Temple of Heresy.  
Brigitta, whose words, and Prophecies ye have in reverence, saith in her Revelations, Christus sumer Benedictionem à Clero Romano, & dabit eam alteri Genri facienti voluntatem Domini: 
Departing from the Church of Ro●●  Christ shall take his blessing from the clergy of Rome: and shall give the same unto a people, that shall do his wil  
By these sew, we may conceive the whole state of the Church of Rome: which only Church, 
Herma●● Riddus.  above all others, M. harding telleth us, is so founded in the Truth, that it can never have power to be deceived.  
We have departed therefore, from shepherds, that spoilt the flock: From Bishops, that destroyed the Church: that oppressed the Spirit of God: that defied the voice of the Prophets: that persecuted Christ in his members: that both perished themselves, and killed others: that wallowed in monsters of filthiness: that lived, as Heathens, under the name of Christ: That were void of Charity: void of Faith: void of Discipline: void of Religion: that were Christians only in Titles, and Ceremonies: From whom Christ had withdrawn his Blessing: To be short, we have departed from the Temple of Heresy, and from the School of error.  
This, M. harding, is the beauty, and face of your Roman clergy: this is that blessed Company, that we have forsaken.  
Yet, say you, It had been better, to have died, then to have broken the Unity of such a Church. For your friends tell you, that without the Obedience of the Bishop of Rome, 
De Maiorita & Obedient. unam Sanctam. Subesse Romano Pontifici, est de necessitate Salutis.  there is no Hope of Salvation. Notwithstanding, your own Clemens, whom ye commonly call the Apostles Fellow, saith thus, Schisma efficit, non qui ab Impijs secessionem facit, sed qui à Pijs: He maketh no Schism, or Division in the Church, that departeth from the Wicked: but he, that departeth from the Godly. And therefore he addeth further, Laici, cum ijs qui contraria sententiae Dei dogmata defendunt, nolite societatem habere, neque participes illorum Impietatis fieri. Ait enim Dominus, 
Clemens, Apostolicar. Consti●a. Lib. 6. Cap. 4.  Recedite de medio horum hominum, ne cum eis pereatis: Ye Lay men, have no Fellowship with them, nor be you partakers of their Wickedness, that defend Doctrines contrary to the doctrine of God. For Our Lord saith, Depart from the mids of this people, lest ye perish together with them.  
Pope Pius. 
Aeneas Silvius ad Rector. & universitatè Colonien. Paraliponena urspergen Pag. 435.  2. saith, Resistendum est quibuscunque in faciem, sive Paulus, siue Petrus sit, qui ad Veritatem non ambulat evangelii: We must withstand any man unto the face, be it Peter, be it Paul: if he walk not after the Truth of the Gospel. S. Augustine saith, Ne Catholicis quidem Episcopis consentiendum est, sicubi fortè falluntur, & contra Canonicas Scripturas aliquid sentiant: We may not agree, no not with the Catholic Bishops, if they happen to be deceived, and think any thing contrary to the Canonical Scriptures. 
Augustinus de unitate Ecclesi. Ca 10.   
S. Chrysostom saith, Ex ipsis Veris Ecclesijs frequenter exeunt seductores. Propterea nec ipsis omninò credendum est, nisi ca dicant, vel faciant, quae convenientia sint Scriptures: 
Chrysostom. in Matth. Hom. 49.  Even out of the very True Churches oftentimes there come deceivers. Therefore we may not in any wise believe, no not them, (notwithstanding they be the True Churches of God) unless they speak, or do such things, as be agreeable to the Scriptures.  
Anselmus, 
Anselmus in. 2. Thessalon. 2.  a late Writer, expounding these words of S. Paul, Tunc Revelabitur ille iniquus, saith thus, Romanus Pontifex, qui tenet nunc Ecclesias, teneat illas, donec de medio fiat: id est, donec ab ipsa Romana Ecclesia, quae est Medium, & Cor Ecclesiarum, fiat iniquitas, ob quam ab ea multae discedant Ecclesiae: Let the Bishop of Rome, that now holdeth the Churches, hold them still, until it be taken away from the mids: that is to say, until Wickedness be wought of the Church of Rome, that is the Midst, and heart of Churches: for which wickedness, many Churches shall depart from her.  
S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. in Epist ad Theodos. & Unsent.  Nullus pudor est, ad meliora transire: It is no shame, to go to the better.  
S. Augustine saith unto Faustus the Heretic, 
Departing from the Church of Rome.  Ille me quondam de gremio tuo Error excusserat. Expertus fugi. quod experiri non debui: That error shook me once out of thy bosom. Being taught by proof, I have fled that thing, that I should not have proved. 
August Contra Faustum. Lib. 15. Cap. 3.   
Ambrose Ansbertus, one of your own Doctoures, saith, Per Hieremiam Prophetam dicitur, Exite de medio eius populus meus, & saluet unusquisque animam suam ab ira faroris Domini. 
Ambros. Ansber. in Apocalyp. Li. 2. Cap. 2.  Nequaquam enim in hac vita de medio Civitatis reprobae, id est, de medio malorum quos Babylon illa significat, electorum aliquis valet exire, nisi detestando, quod ab ipsis agitur, & agendo, quod ab ipsis detestatur: The Prophet Hieremie saith, O my people, go forth from the mids of them, and save every man his own soul from the rage of our lords fury. For none of the Elect of God can in this life go forth from the mids of that Wicked City, that is to say, from the mids of the evil, which that Babylon signifieth, but by defieinge, that they do: and by doing, that they defy.  
And, whereas ye would so feign daste our eyes, and cover your deformities with the name of the Church, 
Cyprian. De Lapsis, Sermo. 5.  S. Cyprian saith, Non est Pax, sed Bellum: nec Ecclesiae iungitur, qui ab evangelio separatur: It is no Peace, but War: neither is he joined to the Church, that is divided from the Gospel.  
S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. ad populum untioch. n. Homi. 17.  Mihi Civitas, non habens pios cives, Omni villa vilior est: & quacunque Spelunca ignobilior: A City, that hath not Godly Citizens, is unto me viler, than any Village: and more loath some, than any Cave. And this he saith of the City of Antioch, which, by express words, he more esteemeth, than the City of Rome.  
We grant, we have departed from you, upon such occasion, and in such for te, as Moses sommetime departed from out of Egypt: or, as S. Augustine from the Manichees. How be it, in very deed, you nave rather departed from out of us. 
Chrysostom in Matth. Hom. 46.  Chrysostom saith, Sic de ista Nova Jerusalem, id est, de Ecclesia, qui Spirituales Christiani fuerunt, relicta Corporali Ecclesia, quam perfidi occupaverant violentia, exierunt ab illis. Magis autem illi exierunt à nobis, sicut johannes exponit. Non enim ille de Ecclesia exire videtur, qui corporaliter exit, sed qui Spiritualiter Veritatis Ecclesiasticae Fundamenta reliquit. Nos enim ab illis ex●uimus Corpore: illi à nobis animo. Nos enim ab illis extuimus Loco: Illi à nobis Fide. Nos apud illos reliquimus Fundamenta parietum: Illi apud nos reliquerunt Fundamenta Scripturarum. Nos ab illis egressi sumus secundum aspectum Hominum: Illi autem à nobis secundum judicium Dei. Relicta est autem deserta, ex quo de illa Corporali Ecclesia Spiritualis exivit: Id est, de populo suo, qui videbatur Christianus, & non erat, Populus iste exivit qui non videbatur, & erat. Magis autem, secundumquod diximus, illi à nobis exierunt quàm nos ab illis: Even so, touching this New Jerusalem, which is the Courche, they, that were Spiritu. [Christian men, lecuinge the Bodily Church, which the wicked by violence had invaded, departed out from them: Or, as s S. john expoundeth it, they rather departed out from us. For he seemeth not in deed to depart from the Church, that Bodily departeth: but he, that Spiritually leaveth the foundations of the Ecclesiastical Truth. We have departed from them, in Body: they have departed from us, in Mind. We from them, by Place: they from us, by Faith. We have left with them the foundations of the Walls: They have left with us the foundations of the Scriptures. We are departed forth from them, in the sight of Man: They are departed from us, in the judgement of God. But now, after that the Spiritual Church is gone forth, the Bodily Church is left forsaken: That is to say, from that people, that seemed to be a Christian people, and was not, this people is gone forth, that seemed not out wardely, but was so in deed. notwithstanding, as we have said before, they have rather departed from us, than we from them.  
Ye say, 
The Church in few.  your Church of Rome, that now is, and the Primitive Church, is all One Church. Even so the Moon both in the full, and in the wane, is all One Moon: Even so Jerusalem, as well under David, as under Manass es, was all one City. The Holy place, whether the Majesty of God, or the Abomination of Desolation stand in it, is all one place. The Primitive Church, say you, and the Church of Rome, that now is, is all one Church. Therefore we say, the Church of Rome, that now is, in Truth, and Religion, aught to agree with the Primitive Church.  
Whether the Church may be brought to a few in number, or no, we had occasion somewhat to say before. The ancient Father Irenaeus saith, Quemadmodum ibi in plurimis eorum, 
Irenaeus, Lib. 4. Cap. 46.  qui peccaverunt, non bene sensit Deus, Sic & hîc multi sunt vocati: pauci verò electi: As in the Old Testament, in many of them, that offended, God was not pleased: Even so now in the New Testament, many are called, and few are Chosen. In Consideration whereof, S. Jerome crieth out in an Agony within himself, 
Hieron in isaiah. Lib. 8. Cap. 24. Fortalitium Fidei. Lib. 5.  Tanta erit Sanctorum paucitas: So small shallbe the number of holy men. One of your own Doctors saith, as it is alleged once before, Licet in hoc bello Daemonum cadant Religiosi Principes, & Milites, & Praelati Ecclesiastici, & Subditi, semper tamen manent aliqui, in quibus servatur Veritas Fidei, & justificatio bonae Conscientiae. Et, si non nisi duo viri Fideles remanerent in mundo, tamen in illis saluaretur Ecclesia, quae est unitas Fidelium: notwithstanding in this war of devils, both the Godly Princes, and Soldiers, and Ecclesiastical Prelates, and Subjects be over thrown, yet evermore there remain somme, in whom the Truth of Faith, and the Righteousness of good Conscience is preserved. And, notwithstanding there were but tv voo Faithful men remaining in the world, yet even in them, the Church of God, which is the Unity of the Faithful, should be saved.  
But, for that we say, we were brought up among you in Darkness, and Ignorance, ye enter out of season into a needless discourse of comparison of Learning, In the Liberal Sciences, ye say, we are not comparable to the Learned men of your side. It was not our meaning, M. harding, to call the Bright beams of your Liberal Learning into question. It appeareth, ye would feign have it blazed, and magnified to the uttermost, and no way to be disgraced. We meant only the knowledge of God, and the open Profession of his Holy Word: In comparison of which knowledge, all other knowledge, what so ever, is mere darkness.  
How be it, touching any kind of the Liberal, and Learned Sciences, there was no great cause, why ye should, either so highly rouse yourself in your own opinion, or so greatly disdain others. 
De Summa Trinita. Linwoode.  Ye may remember, that your Provincial Constitutions begin with these words, Ignorantia Sacerdotum.  
It were no great Mastery, to charge the Chief Doctoures of your side with some want of Learning. Ludovicus vives saith, Vt quidque Ius superioribus saeculis minùs tittum fuit studentium manibus, 
Ludovi vives de Causis Corrupt. Artium, Lib. 5.  ita purius ad nos pervenit: For the space of certain hundred years paste, the less any Book came into (your Learned) students hands, the purer, and better it came to us. Meaning thereby, that every thing was the worse for your Learned handling. Of Thomas, Scotus, Hugo, and others, of whom ye seem to make so great account, your own friend Catharinus saith, Scholastici multa ineruditè Comminiscuntur: 
Catharinus adverius Petrum à Sold.  These School Doctoures imagine many m●ters unlearnedly. Erasmus saith, Portenta, quae nunc passim legimus in Commentarijs Recention Interpretum, tam impudentia, & insulsa sunt, ut videantur suibus ea scripsisse, 
Erasm in Scholijs in Hieronym ad Mar●ellam.  non Hominibus: The monstrous follies, that we commonly read in the Commentaries of the late Interpreters, (whereby he meaneth the very crop, and the woorthieste of all your Scholastical Learned Doctoures) are so far without shame, and so peevish, as if they had been written for Swine, and not for men. One of your Doctoures saith, 
Comparison of Learning.  Apostolus, dicitur ab Apos, quod est Argumentum, vel praeeminentia, & Stolon, quod est Missio: quasi praeeminenter Missus. another saith, Apocrisarij, dicuntur Nuntij Domini Papae. 
Erasmus ad Archiepisc. Toleta. Extra de Elect. & Electi Potest. signify. in Gloss. Manipul. Curate. Pag. 101.  Name crisis dicitur Secretum: & Apos, dicitur Nuntius. another saith, Cathedra, est nomen Graecum, & componitur à Cathos, quod est Fides, & edra, quod est Sponda. another saith, Eleemosyna, dicitur ab Eleis, quod est, Misereri, & Mois, quod est Aqua. Peter Crab in his late Scholies upon the Councils, saith thus, Mulieres 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, id est, Cohabitantes Sacculos: Likewise again he saith, Phrygium factum est ex Pénnis Pavonum. Of your Liberal Learned clergy one saith thus: Nec verba Canonis intelligunt, nec, 
Inter Decreta Felicis pp. Conc. Tomo. 1. Pag. 168 In Donatione Constantini. Herma. Riddus. Hierony. In Reg. Monacho. Ne ad Risum Provocentur Angelici Spiritus.  quae sint verba Consecrationis sciunt. They understand not the words of their Canon: neither know they, which be the Words of Consecration. And therefore he, that forged thee Rule of Monks, under the name of S. Jerome, chargeth them in any wise to pronounce every word distinctly, and warily, lest by their foolish utterance they should make the Angels to fall a laughing.  
These few may serve you for a taste. Hereby, M. harding, it may appear, your clergy hath no great cause, to make such triumph of their Learning. How be it, we upraide you not herewith: nor was this the cause of our departure. Ye hold both Faith, and Learning, and Church, and Religion, by inheritance. Christ hath once prayed for Peter: Therefore your Faith, and Learning can never fail. Yet notwithstanding, your late Books, fraught with so many uncivil, and vain speeches (for of your often Untruths I will say nothing) savour more of Choler, 
Hierony in Proverb. Li. 2. Ca 19  then of Learning. S. Jerome saith, Doctrina viri per patientiam noscitur. Quia tantò quisque minùs oftenditur doctus, quantòconuincitur minùs patience: A man's Learning is known by his patience. For the less patient a man showeth himself, the less he showeth to be his Learning.  
Would God, ye would humble your knowledge, and make it obedient to the knowledge of God. 
Actor. 8.  Otherwise, that Peter said unto Simon Magus, of his moonie, may likewise be said unto you, of your knowledge: Thy knowledge be with thee to thy destruction. 
1. Cor in 2. 3. Esdr. 4. 1. Cor. 13. Matth. 13.  Our Learning is the Cross of Christ: of other Learning we make no vaunts. God is called the God of Truth, and not of Learning. S. Paul saith, All kind of Learning shallbe abolished. God make us all Learned to the Kingdom of Heaven.    

The Apology, Cap. 13. Division. 1.  
But, wherefore, I pray you, have they themselves, the Citizens, and dwellers of Rome, removed, and come down from those Seven Hills, whereupon Rome sommetime stood, to dwell rather in the Plain, called the field of Mars? They will say peradventure, because the conducts of Mater, wherewithout men cannot commodiously live, have now failed, and are dried up in those Hills. Well then, let them give us like leave in seeking the Water of Eternal Life, that they give themselves in seeking the Water of the well. For that Water verily failed amongst them. The Elders of the lews, saith jeremy, 
Hiere. 14.  sent their little ones to the Wateringes: and they, finding no Water, being in miserable case, and utterly lost for thirst, brought home again their vessels empty. The needy, and poor folk, 
isaiah. 41.  saith isaiah, sought about for Water: but no where found they any: their tongue was even withered with thirst. Even so these men have broken in pieces all the pipes, and conduits: they have stopped up all the springs, and choked up the Fountain of Living Water with dirt, and mire. And, as Caligula, many years past, locked up fast all the storehouses of corn in Rome, & thereby brought a general dearth and famine amongst the people, even so these men, by damminge up all the Fountains of God's Word, have brought the people into a pitiful thirst. They have brought into the world, 
Amos. 8.  as saith the Prophet Amos, a hunger, and a Thirst: nor the Hunger of Bread, nor the Thirst of Water, but of hearing the Word of God. With great distress went they scattering about, seeking some spark of heavenly light, to refresh their consciences withal: but that light was already thoroughly quenched out, so that they could find none. This was a rueful state: This was a lamentable form of God's Church. It was a misery, to live therein, without the Gospel, without Light, and without all Comfort.  

M. harding.  
Well, and witteely reasoned foresoothe. No no Sirs, if it were that wholesome Water of Eternal life which ye thirst after, 
‡ Untruth. For we are not departed from the Catholic Church.  ye would never have departed from the high hill, the Catholic Church, and come down into the valleys, where ye find the dirty puddles of fleshly pleasures, where the devil Behemoth, 
job. 40.  as job saith, dormit in jocis humentibus, sleepeth in woiste places. All were not starved for hunger and thirst of that water of God's Word. Therefore ye speak both slanderously and ignorantly for divines, where ye say, that we had broken in pieces all the pipes and conduits, that we had stopped up all the springs, and choked, and dawned up all the fountains of Living Water with dirt and mire.  
Yet unwares or ignorantly, they call that faithless and pagan state, a lamentable form of God's Church, whereas they should have accounted it no Church at al. For where is no word of God, no light, no Gospel at all, how can there be any Church? Without these, any multitude is no more a Church, then without Christ, a man is a Christian, than a dead man is a man. And thus with malicious slandering, not with learned reasons: with their own affirmations, not with apt allegations, have they gone about to prove, that these many hundred years the Church hath erred▪ But thanks be to God, all this wind shaketh no corn. When all these hasty blasts be blown▪ over, the Church of God shall stand still unmoved, upon the rock, Christ builded it on, and appear glorious in her stead fastness and truth, maugre the gain saying of all Heretics, and shall appear to them terrible, as a strong army set in battle ray. 
Cantic. 6.    

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, ye begin out of season to play with your Allegories, and Mystical Fantasies. Your Catholic Church of Rome is the Mount: Worldly pleasure is the Vale. By which Comparison, we must believe, that the Pope, and his Cardinals, sitting on high upon the Mount, pass their time there only in fasting, and prayer, and in all manner poverty, and penury, and straitou●sse of Life, and have utterly abandoned all worldly pleasures. Notwithstanding some have said, 
Paralipomen. Vrspergen. in Clement. 5.  In Cardinalibus Superbia, avaritia, Luxuria validissimè dominantur: In the Cardinals of Rome Pride, Avarice, and Lechery are in their greatest Courage. How be it, touching as well this, as other your like follies, conceminge the Church, I will not say, Ye keep your wont: but I must needs say, ye do but trifle.    

The Apology, Cap. 13. Division. 1.  
Wherefore, 
Departing from the Church of Rome.  though our Departing were a trouble to them, yet ought they to consider withal, how just cause we had of our Departure.  

M. harding.  
In deed our charity is such, as we confess it to be a grief untous, to see you play the part of rebellious children, to use presumption for submission, contempt for obedience, spite for love. Yet sith that ye are desperate and incorrigible, as by your departing from us the Church felt some anguish and trouble, so now that ye are gone, it is relieved, as the body is eased, when after a purgation it hath avoided evil humours. Now say you best.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We are not gone from the Church of God, M. harding: We are gone only from you, that have so unreverently abused the Church. But ye feel good ease, ye say, and are well relieved by our departure, as, to use your homely comparisons, a sick body is relieved by a purgation. God of his mercy grant, that ye may likewise be purged of all the rest. So shall ye feel more ease, and be better relieved.  
S. Jerome saith, 
Hierony. ad Fabiolam. De. 42. Mansionibus, Mansione. 1.  Hebraei dicunt, quòd ea nocte, qua egressus est Israel ex Aegypto, omnia in Aegypto Templa destructa sunt: sive terrae motu, five ictu fulminum. Spiritualiter autem dicimus, quòd egredientibus nobis ex Aegypto, errorum Idola corruant, & omnis Peruersarum Doctrinarum cultura quatiatur: The Rabines, or Hebrew Doctoures say, that the same night, that Israel departed out of egypt, all the Idolatrous Temples in egypt were destroyed: either by Earthquake, or by lightening. But here of we learn, in a Spiritual sense, that when we depart out of egypt (that is to say, from the company of Idolaters) the Idols of error fall to the ground, and all the honour of false Doctrine is shaken down. Such relief, M. harding, we trust, ye shall find by our departure.  
Beda, expounding these words of the Apocalyps, come forth from her, 
Beda in Apocal. Lib. 3. Cap. 18.  my people, and be not partakers of her sins, saith thus: Inducit discessionem, quae est ruina Babylonis: cùm enim Loth discesserit à Sodomis, Sodomae funditùs tollentur: S. john speaketh of the departure, which is the ruin, and fall of Balylon. For, when Loath shall depart out of Sodom, then shall Sodom utterly be overthrown.  
Again he saith, 
Beda in Apocal. Lib. 3. Cap. 19  Post haec audivi vocem, Alleluia: Laus, & Gloria, & Virtus Deo nostro. Haec nunc ex part dicit Ecclesia. Tunc autem perfectè dicet, cùm discessio facta fuerit: After this I heard a voice, Alleluia: Praise, and Glory, and Power be to our God. This song the Church in part singeth already. But then shall she in deed and perfitly sing it, when departure shallbe made (from antichrist, or Babylon).    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 1.  
For if they say, It is in no wise lawful for one, to leave the fellowship, wherein he hath been brought up, they may aswell in our names, & upon our heads, likewise condemn the Prophets, the Apostles, and Christ himself. For why complain they not also of this, that Loth went quite his way out of Sodom: Abraham out of Chaldee, 
Example of Christ  the Israelites out of egypt, Christ from the jews, and Paul from the Phariseis? For except it be possible, there may be a lawful cause of Departing, we see no reason, why Loath, Abraham, the Israelites, Christ, and Paul may not be accused of Sects, and Seditions, aswell as others.  

M. harding.  
Yet bring ye nothing to the purpose. Your proofs be so weak, and hang so evil together, that we may well tell you (which Irenaeus objected to Heretics) that ye make a rope of sand. We say not, it is in no wise lawful for one to leave the fellowship, wherein he hath been brought up. But contrary wise, 
Apocal. 18.  
‡ Thus much confessed is sufficient.  if the fellowship be nought and wicked, every one is bound to eschew it▪ Depart from Babylon my people, and be not ye partakers of her sins, saith the heavenly voice to S. john. 
* A sudden Conclusion.  Therefore the examples ye bring, help nothing your cause.  
Loath went out of Sodom, Abraham of Chaldea, the Israèlites of egypt, Paul from the Phariseis, by God's special warning. Where ye say, Christ went from the jews, unless ye refer it to his stepping aside from them for a while: ye should rather have said, the jews went from Christ. But whereto pertaineth this? Though ye were so malicious, as to compare the Catholic Church to Sodom, to Chaldea, to egypt, to the jews and Phariseis: yet, I ween, ye are not so proud, as 
‡ A vain folly. For a good man may follow Christ without presumptuous Comparison.  to compare yourselves to Loath, to Abraham, to God's peculiar people, to Paul, to Christ himself. These departings we allow, and God required them: yours we blame, and God detesteth.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We compare not ourselves, M. harding, neither with Loath, nor with Abraham, nor with Paul: least of all with Christ himself. But we humbly submit ourselves both in life, and in Doctrine, to be guided by their Examples. And thus, I trust, we may lawfully do, without just note of presumption. S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 79.  Data est tibi potestas divinitùs imitandi Christum, ut possis illi similis fieri. Noli expavescere hoc audience. Timendum enim tibi potiùs est, si similis illi fieri negligas: Thou haste power geeven thee from God to follow Christ, that thou mayst be like unto him. Be thou not afraid to hear this thing. Thou haste more cause to fear, if thou refuse to be like unto him. Likewise saith the ancient Father Origen, Si quem imitati volumus, propositus est nobis Christus ad imitandum: 
Origen. in Ezechiel. Homil. 7.  If we desire to follow any man, Christ is set before us, that we should follow him.  
But if it be so Proud a part, in Religion, and Life to follow Christ, what is he then, that claimeth to himself Christ's Authority, and calleth himself even by the name of Christ? You know, of whom it is written, 
Extra De Translatio Episcopi, Quamto. Hostien. Bernard. De Consideratio. Lib. 2.  Papa potest, quicquid Christus ipse potest. The Pope can do, what so ever Christ himself can do. Ye know, who is well contented, to hear himself thus saluted: touching Primacy, thou art Abel: touching Government, thou art Noen: touching Patriarkship, thou art Abraham: touching Order, thou art Melchisedech: touching Dignity, thou art Aaron: touching Authority, thou art Moses: touching judgement, thou art Samuel: touching Power, thou art Peter: touching anointing, thou art Christ. These words, I trow, M. Harding, may somewhat seem to savour of Pride.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 2.  
And, if these men will needs condemn us for Heretics, because we do not all things at their Commandment, whom (in God's Name) or what kind of men ought they themselves to be taken for, which despise the Commandment of Christ, and of the Apostles?  

M. harding.  
Our frailty concerning life, we accuse, and lament, and commend ourselves to God's infinite mercy. touching belief and necessary doctrine of faith, rail ye at us never so much, we neither despise the 
‡ Untruths notorious, & manifest unto the world.  Commandments of Christ, nor the ‡ traditions of the Apostles.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 3.  
If we be Schismatics, because we have left them, by what name then shall they he called themselves, which have forsaken the greeks, from whom they first received their Faith, forsaken the Primitive Church, forsaken Christ himself, and the Apostles, even as if Children should foresake their parents?  

M. harding.  
Who so ever depart from the Catholic Church, they be Schismatics: ye have departed from the Catholic Church, of 
‡ Here M. Harfreely yieldeth us the first six hundred, and three score years, that is to say, the whole time of the Apostles, & Holy Fathers of the Church.  these nine hundred years: ergo ye be schismatics. The first proposition ye will not deny: The second yourselves confess: the conclusion than must needs be true. If we say the same, blame us not. Neither say we that only, but also that ye are Heretics. Whereby the measure of your iniquity is increased. The same crime ye would impure unto us, if ye wisie how. If ye have no more to lay to our charge, but that we have forsaken the Greeks, ye shall not be offended with the world, if it give us the title, name, and estimation of Catholics, as heretofore. For (remember yourselves) we have not forsaken: he Greeks, but the Greeks in some points have forsaken us. By the name of us, always I understand the Catholic Church, even the Holy Roman Church, whose faith we profess, and with whom we communicate.  

* Read the Answer.  And how standeth it with your learning, that we received the faith first from the Greeks? For where ye say, we have forsaken the Primitive Church, yea Christ himself, and the Apostles, ye have told us this so often, that now we take them to be but words of course, and a common blast of your railing spirit. The Roman Church received the faith from jerusalem 
‡ Untruth, As shall soon appear.  and not from Grece, as the rest of the world did, 
isaiah. 2.  according to the Prophecy, De Sion exibit lex, etc. As for the land of Britain our native country, if the faith were first brought hither by joseph of Arimathaea, and his fellows, as by old tradition we are told: 
* Certainly we received not our Faith first from the Church of Rome.  then was the Church here first planted by faithful jews, and not by Greeks. This being true, we marvel what ye mean, to charge us with forsaking the Greeks, specially where ye say, we first received the faith from them▪ Which is no truer, then that we received our English language from them.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
It were no shame for you, M. harding, to confess, that the Church of Rome first received her Faith from the Churches of Graecia. 
Augu. Epist. 178. Augu. Epist. 170. Chrysosto ad Popul. Antiochen. Homil. 14.  Neither are they so utterly void of Learning, that have said the same. Rather I marvel, what Learning can lead you, to sat the contrary. S. Augustine saith, Terra Graecorum, unde ubique destinata est Fides: The Land of Graecia, from whence the Faith into all places was sent abroad. Again he saith, Radix Orientalium Ecclesiarum, unde evangelium in Aphricam venit: 
Tripar. Histor. Lib. 4 Cap. 16. Sozom. Li 3. ca 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  The Root of the east Churches, from whence the Gospel came into Aphrica. S. Chrysostom saith unto the people of Antioch, Christianorum nomen▪ velut ex quodam font, hinc incipiens, omnem mundum inundavit: The name of Christians beginning first from this City of Antioch, as from a Spring, hath flowed over the whole world. The Bishops of the east wrote thus unto julius the Bishop of Rome: Ad Ecclesiam Romanam ab Oriente Praedicatores Dogmatis advenerunt: The Preachers of Christian Doctrine came from that east to the Church of Rome. 
The Faith brought to Rome out of Graecia.  Likewise S. Basile saith, The Gospel of the Kingdom, springing up first in the Church of Graecia, was from thence published abroad into all the world. Eusebius saith, Lucis virtus, & Sacrae Religionis Lex, beneficio Dei, quasi è sinu Orientis profecta, cunctum simul Orbem Sacro jubare illustravit: The power of the Light, and the Law of Holy Religion, by God's benefit, springing out, as it were, from the bosom of the east, 
Basil. In Epist ad Epis. per Italiam & Galliam. Eusebi. De vita. Constan. Orati. 2. Cod. De Sacrosan. Ecclesiis. L. jubemus. §. Scientes.  hath shined over the whole world together with a blessed beam. The Emperor justinian saith, Constantinopolis, Religionis, & Fidei Mater perpetua: Constantinople is the everlasting Mother of Faith, and Religion. And likewise again, Sacrosancta Constantinopolitanae Civitatis Ecclesia, Mater Pietatis nostrae, & Christianorum Orthodoxae Religionis omnium: The most Holy Church of the City of Constantinople, the Mother of our Holiness, and the Mother of all Christians of the Catholic Faith.  
In like sort, the Church of Constantinople, even until this day, entituleth itself: 
Cod. in Eod. titu. 1. Decernimus. Epist. Eccle. Constantinop. Ad Eccle. Pragen. Concil. Trident. Oratio Episcopi Bitontini.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: The Church of Constantinople, the Mother, and Mistress of all that be Catholic. To be short, if ye will not believe any of these, yet at least ye may believe your own Fellows. The Bishop of Bitonto in your late Chapter at Trident, uttered these words, as it may well appear, with lusty courage: Eia igitur Graecia Mater Nostra, cui id torum debet, quod habet Latina Ecclesia: O therefore our Mother Graecia: unto whom the Latin Church, or the Church of Rome, is beholden for all, that ever she hath.  
These things, M. harding, being true, we marvel, what should move you to deny, that ye first received the Faith from the Church of Graecia. touching the matter itself, 
In opere Triparti. li. 2. ca 1. In. 2. To. Concil.  it is written thus in your own Councils, Si Graeci, per quandam Scissuram, dividuntur à Latinis, ita Latini à Graecis. Et ideo videtur, quòd, Si Graeci debent dici Schismatici propter huiusmodi Divisionem, eadem ratione, & Latini: praetereà Graeci magis servant Antiquas Consuetudines Apostolorum, & Discipulorum Christi, in Barbis, etc. If the Greeks, by a certain Division, be sundered from the Latins, even so be the Latins sundered from the Greeks. And therefore it seemeth, if the Greeks in respect of this Division ought to be called Schismatics, that then the Latins also ought so to be called in like case. Furthermore, the Greeks do more duly keep the Old Customs of the Apostles, and of Christles Disciples, touching Beards, etc. then do the Latins.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 1.  
For though those Greeks, who this day profess Religion, and the name of Christ, have many things corrupted amongst them, yet hold they still a great number of those things, which they received from the Apostles. They have neither Private Masses, nor mangled Sacraments, nor Purgatories, nor Pardons. And as for the titles of High Bishops, and those glorious names, they esteem them so, as whosoever he were, that would take upon him the same, and would be called, either Universal Bishop, or the Head of the Universal Church, they make no doubt, to call such a one, both a passing proud man, and a man, that worketh despite against all the other Bishops his Brethren, and a plain Heretic.  

M. harding.  
As ye have oftentimes belied us, 
‡ Untruth. As it shall plainly appear.  so now ye bely the poor Greeks. So little are ye able to say somewhat, and therein to say truth. For they have Mass commonly without company to communicate with the Priest, which ye call Private Mass: so 
* Untruth, As large, as manifest.  is it all Greece over, so is it in Asia, in Syria, in Assyria, in Armenia, and where so ever the Religion of Christ is professed: As among the Greeks in Venice, I myself, and diverse of our country men have seen it commonly practised. Like wise pray they all for the dead, and think them to be relieved by the prayers, oblations, almose, and deeds of charity, done for them by the living. Which mind, and opinion implieth that faith, 
‡ Untruth, For the Grecians never received these fantasies of Purgatory.  which the Church holdeth of purgatory.  
But though (say ye) those Greeks have many things corrupted, yet hold they still a great number of those things, which they received of the Apostles. And wilt thou know, Reader, what they be? Forsooth they have neither Private Masses, nor mangled Sacraments, nor Purgatories, nor Pardons. Is not the wit of this Defender to be commended, that maketh a man to hold that, which he hath not? 
O, so merrily this man playeth with his fancy.  Those Greeks hold still, saith he. What hold they? Marry they have not this and that. This is a new kind of holding, for a man to hold, that he hath not. If they hold still, then have they still. But they have not, saith he: then how hold they? A man may by the rules of this new Logic, thus reason: The Turks, Saracenes, jews, Infidels, Idolaters, yea, the sheep of Cottesholde also, if ye will, have neither private Masses, nor Communion under one kind, nor Purgatories, nor Pardons: Ergo, they hold a number of things, which they received from the Apostles. The antecedent is true. Who so ever denieth the consequent, must count this Defenders Logic very simple. What if one should make this argument, This Defender hath neither good Logic, nor very fine Rhetoric, nor profound Philosophy, nor the right knowledge of Divinity: Ergo, he holdeth many Heresies? Though both the Antecedent, and Consequent be true, yet is the argument nought. For by like reason one might conclude, an honest unlearned catholic man to be an Heretic, which were false and injurious. Such is the Logic, such are the topikes of this new negative, and ablative divinity: for so may we worthily call it. Negative, in respect of their blasphemous tongues, denieing sundry weighty points of our Faith: Ablative, in respect of their wicked hands, casting away, throwing down, and taking away many good things, pertaining to the maintenance of Christian Religion, and God's honour. Put them from their negatives, and from their ablatives, then in what case shall they stand?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
I am ashamed, the world should be cumbered with so childish follies. This Defenders wit, ye say, is to be commended. He maketh a man to hold, that be never had. And what hold they? say you. Marry, they have not this, and that. This is a new kind of holding, for a man to hold, that he hath not. If they hold still, then have they still. But they have not: then how hold they? Now surely, M. harding, I trow, we shall Have, and Hold a merry man. So pretty sport ye can make yourself with Having, and holding. It were great pity, ye should ever be otherwise occupied. Annibal of Carthage, when he had heard Phormio the orator talk pleasantly a long while together, 
Cicero, De Oratore. 2.  being afterward demanded, what he thought of his Eloquence, made answer in his homely sort, Multos se vidisse delitos senes: sed, qui magis, quàm Phormio, deliraret, vidisse neminem.  
But, some what to yield unto your pleasance, why may not a man Hold, that be never Had, as well as Lose, that he never Had? In the Learned Gloss upon your Decrees, 
Dist. 17. Concil. in Gloss.  ye may find this note amongst others, Nota, quòd aliquis dicitur perdere, quod nunquam habuit: Mark well this: A man may be said to Lose, that he never Had. And yet, ye say commonly in the Schools, Privatio semper praesupponit habitum, The Losing of a thing always presupposeth the Having of the same. Or, to answer you in plainer wise, why may not a man as well Hold nothing, as you may talk so much, and yet say nothing? Galene said sommetime to one, 
Galenus.  that spoke then in such substantial manner, as you speak now, Accipe nihil: & tene fideliter: Take nothing: and hold it fast.  
But to leave your follies, 
The Greek Church.  and silly toys, M. harding, with your Turks, and Saracenes, and Sheep of Cotesholde, we say not, The Greeks Hold still, that they never Had: But we say, They Hold still, that they ever Had. your Private Masses, and your Dimi Communions they Hold not: for they Had them never. The Holy, and Whole Communion in Both kinds, they Hold still: and sithence the Apostles time they have had them ever.  
They pray also for the Dead: And therein, ye say, is implied your Faith of Purgatory. I will not here touch the simplicity of your Rhetoric, or Logic, M. harding: But only wish you, to have better regard to your Divinity. For aught, that I can see, Prayer for the Dead, and your Fantasy of Purgatory, were never so straightly coupled together, but that they might well, and easily go a sunder. The Grecians, as they Pray for the Dead, so do they Pray for the Apostles, for the patriarchs, for the Prophets, and for the Blessed Virgin our Lady: 
Liturgia Basilij, Liturgia Chrysostomi.  as you may soon perceive by S. Basiles, and by S. Chrysostom's Liturgy. Yet, I think, ye would not have your Reader believe, as an Article of your Faith, that the Apostles of Christ, the patriarchs, the Prophets, and the Blessed Virgin Christ's Mother are still in Purgatory. What so ever other opinion the Grecians have of the Dead, certain it is, they could never yet be brought to believe your Purgatory.  
Roffensis, 
Polydor. De Inuentoribus, li. 8. cap. 1.  one of your greatest Doctoures, as I have said before, saith thus, Purgatorium Graecis usque ad hunc diem non est creditum: The Grecians until this day believe not Purgatory. Thus, M. harding, I know not, whether by your Logic, or by your Divinity, (for both are marvelous) ye would feign force your poor Greeks, to Hold that thing, that they never Had.  
another proper pastime ye make yourself with your Negatives, and Ablatives. And wherefore, it were hard to tell, saving that, I see, ye were well disposed, and well it became you, to be merry. The Ancient Learned Fathers, having to deal with impudent Heretics, that in defence of their Errors, avouched the judgement of all the Old Bishops, and Doctoures, that had been before them, and the general consent of the Primitive, and whole Universal Church, and that with as good regard of Truth, and as faithfully, as you do now, the better to discover the shameless boldness, and nakedness of their Doctrine, were oftentimes likewise forced to use the Negative, and so to drive the same Heretics, as we do you, to prove their Affirmatives: which thing to do, it was never possible. The ancient Father Irenaeus thus stayed himself, as we do, 
Irenaeus. li. 1. ca ●.  by the Negative: Hoc neque Prophetae Praedicaverunt, neque Dominus docuit, neque Apostoli tradiderunt: This thing neither did the Prophets publish. nor our Lord teach, 
Chrysost. De Incomprehensi. Dei natura, Hom. 3. Leo. Epist. 93. cap. 12.  nor the Apostles deliver. By a like Negative Chrysostom saith, Hanc Arborem non Paulus plantavit, non Apollo rigavit, non Deus auxit: This Tree (of error) neither Paul planted, nor Apollo watered, nor God increased. In like sort Leo saith, Quid opus est in cor admittere, quod Lex non docuit, quod Prophetia non cecinit, quod evangelii Veritas non praedicavit, quod Apostolica Doctrina non tradidit? What needeth it, to believe that thing, that neither the Law hath taught, nor the Prophets have spoken, nor the Gospel hath preached, nor the Apostles have delivered? And again, Quomodo nova inducuntur, quae nunquam nostri sensere Maiores? 
Leo, Epist. 97. cap. 3.  How are these new devices brought in, that our Fathers never knew?  
S. Augustine, 
August. Epist. 165  having reckoned up a great number of the Bishops of Rome, by a general Negative saith thus: In hoc ordine Successionis nullus Donatista Episcopus invenitur: In all this order of Succession of Bishops, there is not one Bishop found, 
Private Mass in the Greek Church.  that was a Donatiste. S. Gregory, being himself a Bishop of Rome, and writing against the Title of Universal Bishop, saith thus, Nemo Decessorum meorum hoc tam prophano vocabulo uti consensit: Nullus Romanorum Pontificum hoc singularitatis nomen assumsit: 
Gregorius, li. 4. Epist. 32.  None of all my Predecessors ever consented to use this ungodly Title: No Bishop of Rome ever took upon him this name of Singularity.  
These, and other like Negatives, the Holy Fathers in Old times might safely use without controlment: for that there was no doctor of Louvain as yet up start, to carp, and quarrel at their Divinity. Leave this childish, and unsavoury sporting, and trifling with your Negatives, M. harding. It were a great deal more seemly, for a man of Learning, and Gravity, and more to your purpose, to prove your Affirmatives.  
They have Private Mass, ye say, in all Graecia, Asia, Syria, Assyria, Armenia, and, where so ever the Religion of Christ is professed. All this we must needs believe upon your word: for other proof ye offer to make none. notwithstanding, if they have such Private Masses in all those Countries, tell us, I beseech you, who were the Authors, and Makers of these Masses? Ye will say, S. james, S. Chrysostom, or S. Basile. For of these names, and Masses, ye have told us many a tale. Yet, if ye consider the matter well, ye shall find, that these self same Masses were our Communions, and nothing like to your Masses: And, that the Holy Sacraments at the same, contrary to your new devices, were delivered generally in Both kinds to all the people.  
S. 
Liturgia jacobi.  james in his Mass saith thus, Diaconi tollunt Discos, & Calices, ad impertiendum populo: The Deacons take up the dishes, and the Cups, to minister the Sacrament unto the people.  
S. Chrysostom in his Mass saith thus, 
Liturgia Chrysostomi.  Pòst Mysteria feruntur ad locum, ubi populus debet communicare: afterward the Holy Mysteries, or Sacraments be brought unto the place, where the people must receive together.  
S. Basile in his Mass saith thus, 
Litur. Basilij.  Nos omnes de uno Pane, & de uno Calice participantes, etc. Cantores cantant Communionem: & sic Communicant Omnes: Al we receiving of One Bread, and one Cup, etc. The Choir singeth the Communion: and so they Communicate All together. Therefore, M. harding, ye must needs confess, either that the Grecians this day use none of these Masses: or, that their Masses are not your Masses, but our Communions: Which both are contrary to yourself.  
In the Armenians Liturgy, 
Georgius Cassander in Liturgijs.  it is written thus, Qui non sunt digni Communicare hanc Oblationem Dei, exeant foras ante fores Ecclesiae, & ibi Orent: They, that are not worthy to receive this Oblation of God, let them go forth before the Church door: and there let them pray.  
Of the Grecians order in this behalf, your great, and special doctor, Cardinal Bessarion, 
Bessarion, De Sacrament. Eucharistiae.  being himself a Greek borne, saith thus, Hoc ipse ordo rerum poscebat: primùm, Consecrare: deinde, Frangere: posteà, distribuere: Quod nos in praesenti facimus: This the very order of the things required: first, that we should Consecrate, 
Circa annum Domini, 1450.  or Bless the Bread: next, that we should Break it: last of all, that we should Divide it, (or deliver it to the people). Which thing we (Grecians) do at this present day. Thus you see, M. harding, that the Grecians this day Consecrate, Break, and Divide the Sacrament unto the people, as we do. Therefore it is untrue, that you say, They have this day your Private Mass.  
Touching the Grecians, that live now in Venice, what order they use there, I cannot tell. 
Private Mass in the Greek Church.  notwithstanding, as I have heard say, Private Mass they have not. But if they have, living under the Pope's jurisdiction, it is no marvel. Certain it is, that Venice is no part of Grecia.  
Mathias Illyricus, 
Matthi. Illyricus, in Testibus Veritatis. pag. 5.  being himself borne in Dalmatia, not far from the Confines, or Borders of Grecia, and therefore, as it may be thought, the better acquainted with their Orders, saith thus: Ecclesia Graeca, eique coniunctae, Asiatica, Macedonica, Mysica, Valachica, Rutenica, Moschovitica, & Aphricana, id est, totus Mundus, vel certè eius maxima pars, nunquam Primatum Papae communi consensu concesserunt: nunquam Purgatorium probaverunt: nunquam Privatas Missas: nunquam Communionem sub una specie: The Church of Grecia, and the Churches of Asia, Macedonia, Mysia, Valachia, Russia, Moschovia, and Aphrica, joined thereunto, that is to say, in a manner the whole World, or at least, the greatest part thereof, never granted thee Pope his Supremacy: never allowed either Purgatory, or Private Masses, or the Communion under one kind.  
In the poem or Entry of the Council of Ferraria, 
Concil. Ferrari●. in Prooemio.  it is written thus, Proxima Dominica quindecim Graeci Sacerdotes domi Imperatoris, jussu eius. Missam solenniter celebrarunt. Vbi etiam Marchio cum suis Civibus adfuit, & Panem Benedictum, per Patriarchae dextram, more Graecorum, accepit, atque libavit: The next Sonnedaie, fiftiene Greek Priests within the emperors Palace, by his Commandment, said a Solemn Mass (or Communion) where as the Marquese was present with his Citizens, and, as the manner of the Grecians is, received, and tasted the Bread Consecrate, at the hand of the Patriarch. Here it is to be noted by the way, that these fiftiene Priests said not fiftiene Several Masses, but all together one only Mass: 
Petrus Vrbevetanus, in Vita Deusdedit Pap.  and that the same one Mass was no Private Ministration, but a Communion. Whereof Petrus Vrbevetanus saith thus, Tum ad instar Graecorum, non cantabatur in una Ecclesia, nisi forsan una Missa: Then there was song in one Church no more, saving perchance one only Mass, as the manner of the Grecians is.  
Likewise saith Durandus, Offerebant magnum Panem, & omnibus sufficientem: Quod adhuc Graeci servare dicuntur: They offered up one great loaf, 
Durandus in Rationali. li. 4.  that might suffice all the Church: Which order, they say, the Grecians keep until this day.  
By these few, I trust, M. harding, it may soon appear, whether of us have belied your poor Grecians.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 2.  
Now then, since it is manifest, and out of all peradventure, that these men are fallen from the Greeks, of whom they received the Gospel, of whom they received the Faith, the True Religion, & their Church itself, what is the matter, why they will not now be called home again to the same men, as it were, to their originals, and first Founders? And why be they afraid to take a pattern of the Apostles, and Old Father's times, as though they all had been void of understanding? Do these men, ween ye, see more, or set more by the Church of God, than they did, who first delivered us these things?  

M. harding.  
Soft and fair, Sir Defender: you have not yet proved, that you say, is manifest, and out of all peradventure. Remember you not the old homely verse of your sophistry. Neque negativis, rectè concludere si vis? Speak to the purpose, or else I would you would make an end of your silly follies. For in deed you trifle, and say nothing worth to be answered. And here little cause do you minister unto me, to utter substantial stuff. Which I desire the discrete Reader to consider, for mine excuse, that with a trifler I do also but trifle.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, by your own confession, ye do but trifle with your Filly follies: for that, I trow, your substantial, and better stuff was not yet ready.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 3.  
In deed, we have renounced that church, wherein we could neither have the Word of God sincerely taught, nor the Sacraments rightly administered, nor the name of God duly called upon: Which church also themselves confess to be faulty in many points: And wherein was nothing able to stay any wise man, or one, that hath consideration of his own safety.  

M. harding.  
And why have ye renounced this Church, but for that ye might not be suffered to set forth to the loss of Christian souls the detestable heresies of Wicklef, Luther, Zuinglius, Caluine, and other your false Masters, which ye call your sincere word of God, after your Schismatical, and Heretical manner? That ye say, there was nothing in the Catholic Church, able to stay any wise man, or any that hath consideration of his safety: it is one of your impudent lies.  
There were both wise men in the Church, and great multitudes of such as had good regard of their soul health, always before the Devil had such a hand upon Luther, and the rest of your new Apostles, and Apostates.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 4.  
To conclude, we have forsaken the church, as it is now, not as it was in Old times paste, and have so gone from it, as Daniel went out of the Lion's Den, and the three children out of the furnace: and, to say the truth, we have been cast out by these men, (being cursed of them, as they use to say, with Book, Bel, and Candle) rather than have gone away from them of ourselves.  

M. harding.  
The Church that now is, and the Church that was in Old time, is one Church, as a man in his old age is the same man, he was in his youth. 
* Untruth. For God himself saith, come forth from the mids of them, O my people: Apocal. 18.  From the which Church no faults, or unperfections can excuse you for your departing. 
Daniel. 6. &. 3.  Neither have ye gone from it as Daniel was delivered out of the Lions Denn●, nor as the three Children out of the furnace: but ye have departed wilfully from the house of God, where touching Faith, all be of one accord, unto the synagogue of antichrist, unto Babylon of Sects, where is no order, but confusion, unto the kingdom of Satan: and there ye remain as it were in a Den of Lions, where that roaring Lion with his fellows, lieth in wait, 
1. Pet. 5.  seckinge whom he may devour. Ye have stepped from the place of Spiritual refrigerie, into the frieinge pan of Schisms and Heresies, 
A hot kind of Divinity.  and from thence, after that ye have now boiled and fried, in malice and rancour against the Church, except ye repent, ye are like to leap into the furnace of Hell, that for ever shall torment you, and never consume you. Complain not of your casting out of the Church. To be excommunicate, ye have deserved. And that kind of punishment is by a merciful discipline, extended upon you, partly for your amendment, partly to conserve the rest of the body whole from your pestiferous contagion.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Now ye begin to keep Hot Schools, M. harding. your Frieinge pans, and Furnesses, with other your like Kitchen implements of Frieinge, and Boilinge, are hot, and dangerous to deal withal.  
The causes of our departure from you, are answered before.  
The Church, ye say, that now is, and the Church, that was in Old times, is one Church. Even so, as I showed you before, the Moon, being full, and the same Moon eclipsed, is one Moon: Even so, a Man well advised, and the same Man stark mad, 
Matthae. 21.  is one Man: Even so, the house of God, and a Cave of thieves, is one House.  
Ye have Excommunicate us, 
johan. 9 12. 16. johan. Epist. 3. Qui amat Primatum gerere. Apocalyp. 13.  and put us from you. So did certain of your Predecessors, and Fathers, Excommunicate Christ, and his Apostles. So did Diotrephes, that first claimed your Papale Primacy, Excommunicate the Faithful of Christ, that were the first Planters of the Gospel. So it is written in the Apocalyps, that antichrist shall Excommunicate all them, that will not adore the Image of the Beast.  
The Pope himself saith, 
24. Quae. 1. Ait.  Excommunicatus non potest Excommunicare: He that is Excommunicate himself, hath no Right, or Power to Excommunicate others. 
24. Quae. 3. Comperimus, Rubri.  And in your own Law it is written thus, Qui illicitè alium Excommunicate, seipsum, non illum, condemnat: He that unlawfully Excommunicateth an other, Condemneth not him, but himself.  
S. Augustine saith, 
August Ad Clericos Hipponen. Citatur. 11. Quae. 3. Quid obest. Augustin. In johan. Tract. 45.  Quid obest homini, si eum de illa Tabula delere velit Humana ignorantia, quem de Libro viventium non delet iniqua conscientia? What is a man the worse, if the ignorance of a man strike him out of the Book of the Church, if ill Conscience strike him not out of the Book of Life? In this case S. Augustine saith, It cometh sometimes to pass, Vt plurimae sint Foris oves, & plurimi sint Intus Lupi: That there be many Sheep without the Church, and many wolves within the Church.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 5.  
And we are come to that Church, wherein they themselves cannot deny (if they will say truly, and as they think in their own conscience) but all things be governed purely, and reverently, and as much, as we possibly could, very near to the order used in the old time.  

M. harding.  
Ye are come unto the malignant Church, to the Congregation of Reprobates, whither as into a sink in manner all the Heresies that Satan ever raised up from the beginning, be avoided.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 1.  
Let them compare our Churches and theirs together, and they shall see, that themselves have most shamefully gone from the Apopostles: and we most justly have gone from them. For we, following the Example of Christ, of the Apostles, and the Holy Fathers, give the people the Holy Communion, Whole, and perfit: But these men, contrary to all the Fathers, to all the Apostles, and contrary to Christ himself, do sever the Sacraments, and pluck away the one part from the people, and that with most notorious Sacrilege, as Gelasius termeth it.  
We have brought again the lords Supper unto Christ's Institution, and have made it a Communion in very deed, common, and indifferent to a great number, according to the name. But these men have changed all things, contrary to Christ's Institution, and have made a Private Mass, of the Holy Communion. And so it cometh to pass, that we give the lords Supper unto the people: and they grieve them a vain pageant, to gaze upon.  
We affirm together with the Ancient Fathers, that the Body of Christ is not eaten, but of the good, & Faithful, and of those, that are endued with the Spirit of Christ. Their Doctrine is, that Christ's very Body Effectually, and, as they speak, Really, and Substantially, may not only be eaten of the wicked, and unfaithful men, but also (which is monstrous, and horrible to be spoken) of Miso, and Dogs.  
We use to pray in our Churches, 
1. Corinth. 14.  after that fashion, as, according to Paul's lesson, the people may know, what we pray, and may answer, Amen, with a general consent. These men, like sounding Metal, yell out in the Churches unknown, and strange words without understanding, without knowledge, and without devotion: yea, and do it of purpose, because the people should understand nothing at al.  

M. harding.  

* Untruth. For there is no better comparison, then between Contraries: Contraria juxta se posita, magis elucescunt.  As comparison can not duly be made between Light and Darkness, between Truth and Lying, between Christ and Belial: so neither between the Catholic Church, and starting holes of Heretics. You say much, and prove nothing. The most ye have to crack of, which ye have never done withal, is your ministering of both kinds unto the people, your new found holy day the English Communion, your Service in the vulgar tongue▪ and your vile objection of Miso and Dogs. This is the storeboxe of M. jewels high Divinity, which he maketh no great store of, but shaketh it abroad everywhere. To every point I have said so much, as is 
‡ Enough, no doubt, and sufficient. For in the self same four Articles, M. Hard. hath uttered four score and fourteen great untruths.  enough, to stay the hearts of those, that fear God, in mine answer to M. jewels challenge. To the matter of both kinds, and the objection made out of Gelasius, in the second article. To that of Private Mass, in the first article. To all that is said for the Church Service in the vulgar tongue, in the third Article. To the objection of Miso, Dogs, and Worms, in the 23. Article. The same here to rehearse again, I think it needles.  
But where ye affirm the Body of Christ not to be eaten, but of the good, and faithful only, if ye mean the Sacramental eating, so as it is eaten under the Sacrament in the visible form of Bread, and Wine, and not of the 
* Vnfruteful, & vain distinctions Read the Answer.  Spiritual eating only, that is false. In that ye say the Fathers be on your side, meaning the * Sacramental eating, ye bely them. And so like wise reporting our Doctrine to be, that wicked and unfaithful men may eat the Body of * Christ effectually, ye be●●e us. We teach that the evil may eat the Body of Christ Really, 
Comparison of churches.  that is, in deed, but not effectually. They only eat effectually, who eating it worthily obtain the effect of Christ's Body: Which is the unity of the mystical body of Christ, 
Gregor. Dialog. li. 4.  and increase of grace. 
* This Book is full of Fables, and Vanities: and therefore not thought to be S. Gregory's.  There is verily (saith S. Gregory) in sinners, and in them which receive unworthily, the true Flesh of Christ, and his true Blood, sed essentia, non salubri efficentia, but in substance, not in wholesome effect.  
That evil men receive the true Body of Christ Sacramentally, 
Augustin. Epist. 162.  no less than good, where I might allege in manner all the Old Fathers, 
‡ S. Augustine is directly to the Contrary. See the Answer.  S. Augustine only may suffice, who affirmeth the same, speaking thus of judas. Tolerat ipse Dominus judam, diabolum, furem, & venditorem suum finit accipere inter innocentes Discipulos, quod norunt fideles, pretium nostrum. Our Lord himself doth tolerate judas, and suffereth a Devil, a Thief, and him that sold him, to receive amongst his innocent Disciples 
* Our Price, He meaneth the Sacrament of our Price.  our Price, which the Faithful do know. But what need any man to require the testimonies of Fathers, 
1. Corin. 11.  scythe S. Paul teacheth us, so to believe? Who so ever (saith he) eateth this Bread, and drinketh of the Cup of our Lord unworthily, he shal●e guilty of the Body, and Blood of our Lord.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
There is no better comparison to be made, M. harding, than between Light, and Darkness: Truth, and Falsehood: Christ, and Belial. For one of these contraries doth evermore bewray the other. And therefore Christ saith, 
johan. 3.  He that doth ill, hateth the Light, and cometh not to it: lest his evil doings should be espied. And this is it, M. harding, that you so carefully keep the people from the Light of God's word: 
Plini. li. 18.  lest by comparison thereof, they should begin to loath your Darkness. Pliny saith, Tritico reperto, continuò damnatum est Hordeum, & quadrupedum refectibus traditum: As soon as Wheat was once found (by comparison thereof) straight way Barley was refused, and given to cattle to feed upon.  
S. 
Cyprian. Ad Cornelium, li. 1. Epi. 3.  Cyprian saith, Haec est, frater, vera dementia, non cogitare, quòd mendacia non diu fallant: Noctem tam diu esse, donec illucescat dies: This is very mere madness, my Brother, not to consider, that lies cannot long deceive the world: (Remember) it is Night no longer, 
Chrysostom. In Matthae. ca 23.  but until the Day spring. And therefore Chrysostom saith, as it is alleged before, Haeretici claudunt januas Veritatis: Heretics shut up the Gates of the Truth. For they know right well, if the Truth may appear, their falsehood will soon be espied, 
Tertul. De prescription.  and the Churches shallbe none of theirs. Tertullian saith, Ipsa Doctrina Haereticorum cum Apostolica comparata, ex diversitate, & contrarietate sua pronuntiabit, neque Apostoli alicuius Authoris esse, neque Apostolici Viri: The very Doctrine of Heretics compared together with the Apostles Doctrine, even by the diversity, and contrariety, that is in it, beareth witness of itself, that it never came, neither from any Apostle of Christ, nor from any apostolic Man.  
When the Emperor Adrianus had yielded to grant the Christians one Church within the City of Rome, 
Aelius Lampridius.  certain of his Privy Counsel advised him in any wise not so to do: For that, they said, if the Christians might have but one Church within the City, the whole people would become Christians: and by comparison thereof, their Idols Churches should be forsaken. Restore you the Holy Communion, M. harding, and ye shall see your Masses, and Mockeries soon fall to ground, 
1. Regum. 5. Hieronym. Ad Algasian, Quae. 11.  as did the Idol Dagon at the presence of the Ark of God. S. Jerome saith, Mendacium Antichristi, Christi veritas devorabit: The Truth of Christ shall devour, and consume the lying of antichrist.  
touching the shaking out of Stoareboxes, ye had no great cause to complain. For there is not one of all these matters, one only of Private Mass excepted, that hitherto throughout this Apology hath, to my remembrance, been touched, 
Infidels, Dogs, Miso.  or mentioned more, than once. But it is a small matter, M. harding, that may suffice you, to make a quarrel.  
That Miso, and Dogs may eat the very Natural Body of Christ, and that Really, Substantially, and in deed, it is your Doctrine: it is not ours. For we utterly abhor it, and defy it, as most detestable, and loathsome villainy.  
I marvel not, to hear you say, that wicked Creatures, and Faithless Infidels may eat Christ's Body, seeing ye doubt not, to avouch the same of Brute Beasts, 
August. in johan. tracta. 26.  and Dumb cattle. Yet, S. Augustine saith, Hoc Manducare illam Escam, & illum Potum Bibere, in Christo manner, & illum manentem in se habere: This is the eating of that Meat, and the drinking of that Drink, 
johan. 6.  for a man to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling within him. Even so saith Christ himself, He that eateth my Flesh, and Drinketh my Blood. (is neither wicked Creature, nor Faithless Infidel, nor Dog, nor Mouse, but) dwelleth in me, 
Augusti. Epist. 162.  and I in him.  
But S. Augustine saith, judas accepit Pretium nostrum: judas received our Price: which by your exposition can be none other, but the Body of Christ. O M. harding, ye should not thus have mockte the world with this Authority. You yourself know, ye deal not plainly: you yourself know, that S. Augustine by these words (Our Price) meant only the Sacrament of our Price. 
Chrysostom. Ad Haebr. Homi. 16.  So Chrysostom saith, Baptisma Christi Sanguis Christi est: The Baptism of Christ, is the Blood of Christ: Not for that it is so in deed, but for that it is a Sacrament of the Blood of Christ. Even so it is noted in your own Decrees: 
De Con. Dis. 2. Hoc est.  Ipsa immolatio carnis Christi, quae Sacerdotis manibus fit, Vocatur Christi Passio, Mors, Crucifixio: Non Rei Veritate, sed significant Mysterio: The Oblation of the flesh of Christ, that is wrought with the priests hands, is called the Passion, the Death, and the Crucifieinge of Christ: not in Truth of matter, but in a Mystery signifying. This Exposition ye may not well refuse: It is S. Augustine's: It is your own. Hereof we have spoken otherwheres more at large. But, to put the matter out of doubt, that it may appear, in what sense judas received the Price of Christ's Death, S. Augustine himself thereof saith thus, 
Augustin. In Psalm. 3.  Christus adhibuit judam ad Conuivium, in quo corporis, & Sanguinis sui Figuram Discipulis suis commendavit, & tradidit: Christ received Judas unto his Banquet, whereat he gave to his Disciples the Figure of his Body, and Blood.  
The Book, that ye allege in the name of S. Gregory, is vain, and Childish, and full of Fables, and not S. Gregory's.  
But S. Paul saith, 
1. Cor. 11.  Who so ever Eateth of this Bread, and Drinketh of the Cup of our Lord unworthily, he shall be guilty of the Body, and Blood of our Lord. Even so S. 
August. Contra Cresco. li. 1. ca 23. August Contra Cresco. li. 2 ca 13.  Augustine writeth of the Water of Baptism: Baptismus valet, alijs ad Regnum: alijs ad judicium: Baptism is available to some unto the Kingdom of God: to some unto Judgement. Again he saith, Baptismum multi habent, non ad Vitam Aeternam, sed ad Poenam Aeternam, non bene utentes tanto bono: some have Baptism, not to Life everlasting, but to Pain everlasting, not well using so good a thing.  
Likewise saith Tertullian, 
Tertullian. De Baptismo.  Si qui pondus intelligant Baptismi, magis timebunt consecutionem, quàm dilationem: They that understand the weight of Baptism, will fear more the geattinge of it, than the delate.  
Yet ye press the matter further: S. Paul saith, Who so eateth unworthily of this Bread, is guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ: Ergo, say you, Christ's Body, and Blood must needs be Really Present. Here, Master harding, it were a worthy matter, 
Guilty of the Body and Blood etc.  to see, by what engines ye would prove these hasty Conclusions, or how ye would force this Guilt, and this Presence to go together. For, think you, that no man can be guilty of the Body, and Blood of Christ, but he, that hath Christ's Body, and Blood Really Present in his hand? Verily, S. Augustine saith, 
August. De Tempore, Sermo. 20.  Reus erit, non parvi preiij, sed Sanguinis Christi, qui violate, & commaculat Animam, Christi Sanguine, & Passione mundatam: He is Guilty of no small Price, but even of the Blood of Christ, that (by Fornication, or advowtry) defileth his own soul, that was made clean by the Passion, and Blood of Christ. Yet hath he not therefore Christ's Blood Really Present.  
Athanasius saith, 
Athana. De Passione, & Cruce Domini. Ezechiel. 33.  Adorantes Dominum, neque ita, ut dignum est eo, viventes, non sentiunt se reos fieri Dominicae Mortis: worshipping Our Lord, and not living so as is meet for our Lord, they feel not, that thereby they are made Guilty of our lords Death. So saith God by the Prophet Ezechiel, I will require the Blood of the people at thy hand.  
Christ saith, 
Luke. 11.  God shall require of you the Blood of the Prophets, that hath been shed from the beginning of the world.  
This Guilt, M. harding, may well stand without any Real Presence of the Blood, either of Christ, or of the Prophets.  
This therefore is S. Paul's meaning, that the wicked, resorting unworthily to the Holy Mysteries, and having no regard, what is meant thereby, despise the Death, and Cross of Christ, and therefore are Guilty of the lords Body, and Blood, that are represented in the Sacrament.  
Chrysostom saith, 
Concil. Nicen. 2. Actio. 6.  as he is alleged in the second Council of Nice, Is, qui Imaginem Imperatoris violate, in prototypum Dignitatis iniustus est: He, that defileth the Emperors Image, is injurious to the Majesty of the Emperors Person, that is pourtraide in the Image.  
S. Cyprian saith, 
Cyprian. De Ablutione pedum.  Impijs, in Morte Christi nullus superest quaestus: sed iustissimè eos beneficia neglecta condemnant: The wicked have no gain by the Death of Christ: but the benefits, that they have despised, do most justly condemn them.  
To come near to the purpose, 
August. Ad Bonifaci. Epist. 50.  S. Augustine saith, Habent Foris Sacramentum Corporis Christi: sed Rem ipsam non tenent Intus, cuius est illud Sacramentum. Et ideò sibi judicium manducant, & bibunt: Outwardly they have the Sacrament of Christ's Body: But the thing itself (which is Christ's Body, represented by the Sacrament) inwardly in their hearts they have not. And therefore they Eat, and Drink their own judgement. S. Augustine saith, they are Guilty, not because they receive, but because they receive not the Body of Christ.  
Again he saith, 
August. In johan. tracta. 26.  Qui non manet in Christo, & in quo non manet Christus, procul dubio non Manducat Spiritualiter Carnem eius, nec Bibit eius Sanguinem: licet Carnaliter, & Visibiliter premat dentibus Sacramentum Corporis, & Sanguinis Christi: Sed magis tantae rei Sacramentum ad judicium sibi Manducat & Bibit: He that abideth not in Christ, nor Christ in him, out of doubt he eateth not Spiritually his Flesh, nor Drinketh his Blood: not withstanding Carnally (that is to say, with his bodily Mouth) and visibly he do press with his teeth the Sacrament of the Body, and Blood of Christ: And rather, eateth and drinketh (not Christ's very Body, and Blood, but) the Sacrament of so great a thing unto his Judgement. These words, M. harding, be so plain, that I cannot imagine, what ye should more desire. They are Guilty of the blood of Christ, for that they despise the price, wherewith they were saved, not for that they receive it Really into their mouths.  
So S. Augustine saith again, Reus erit Aeternae Mortis, quia vilem in se habuit Sanguinem Redemptoris: 
Guilty of the Body and Blood etc.  The Aduouteroure is Guilty of everlasting Death, because he despised in himself the Blood of our Saviour.  
The Distinction, that you imagine between Real receiving in the wicked, and Effectual receiving in the Godly, 
August. De Tempore, Sermo. 120.  as it is only of yourself, without the Authority of any doctor, Greek, or Latin, so is it nothing else, but a very Effectual, and Real Folly. For the very Body of Christ, if it be not Effectually received, is not received. Christ himself saith, He that eateth me, shall live by me. 
Ambros. De Benediction. Patriarch. cap. 6.  S. Ambrose saith, Hic panis est remissio peccatorum. Qui accipit, non moritur morte peccatoris: This Bread is the Remission of Sins. He that receiveth it, shall not die the death of Sinner.  
S. Augustine saith, Qui non sumit hanc Escam, non habet Vitam: &, qui eam sumit, 
August. In johan. tracta. 26.  habet Vitam, & hanc utique Aeternam: He, that receiveth not this meat, hath no life: And he, that receiveth the same, hath life, and that everlasting.  
Likewise again he saith, 
August. ●odem loco.  Huius rei Sacramentum in Mensa Dominica praeparatur, & de Mensa Dominica sumitur: quibusdam ad vitam, quibusdam ad exitium: Res vero ' ipsa, cuius est Sacramentum, omni homini ad vitam, nulli ad exitium, quicunque eius particeps fuerit: The Sacrament hereof is prepared upon the lords Table, and from the lords Table is received: to some unto life, to some unto destruction. But the thing itself, (that is, the Body of Christ,) whereof it is a Sacrament, is received, of all men to life, and of no man to destruction, whosoever shallbe partaker of it.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 2.  
But, not to tarry about rehearsing all points, wherein we and they differ, for they have well nigh no end, we turn the Scriptures into all tongues: they scant suffer them to be had abroad in any tongue.  

M. harding.  
We 
* This is nothing. but open mockery.  gladly suffer them to be had in every place of christendom in the learned tongues, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin (to be read of the vulgar Unlearned people). Neither were they altogether forbidden to be had in some vulgar tongues, before the saucy maleperines of Heretics forced the governors of the Church, for safeguard of the people, 
‡ Untruth, too fond for a child For there was never such order taken by the Governors of the Church.  to take other order.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Ye can vouchsafe to allow us the Scriptures in the three Learned Tongues, Greek, Hebrew, and Latin: that is to say, in such sort, as the simple people may in no wise touch them. But where did God ever sanctify these three tongues, and call them Learned? Or, where were they ever so specially Canonised, and allowed, above all other tongues, to the custody of the Scriptures?  
S. Augustine saith, 
August. Epist. 48.  Scriptura Canonica tot Linguarum Literis, & ordine, & successione Celebrationis Ecclesiasticae custoditur: The Canonical Scripture is kept in the Letters of so many tongues, and by the order, and succession of Ecclesiastical publishing. Again he saith, 
August. De Doctrina Christiana. li. 2. ca 5.  Scriptura Divina ab una Lingua profecta, per varias interpretum Linguas, longè, latéque diffusa, innotuit Gentibus ad Salutem: The Holy Scriptures, passing from one Tongue, and being published abroad, fane and wide, (not only by three learned Tongues, but also) by sundry Tongues of Interpreters, have come to the knowledge of Nations, and people, to their Salvation. Again he saith, Habemus Dei beneficium, 
August. In Psal. 105.  qui Scripturas suas in multis Linguis esse voluit: We have the benefit of God, that would have his Scriptures to be (not only in Three, but) in many Tongues.  
S. Chrysostom saith, 
The Scriptures in the vulgar tongues.  Sylli, Aegyptij, Indi, Persae, Aethiopes, & innumerae aliae Gentes, Dogmata ab hoc introducta, in suam transferentes Linguam, hommes Barbari, Philosophari didicerunt: The Syrians, the Egyptians, the Indians, the Persians, the Ethiopians, and other nations innumerable, translating into their own tongues the Doctrine, 
Chrysost. in johan. Homil. 1. Hieronym. in Psalm. 86.  that they had received of S. john, being Barbarous people, endenvoured themselves to learn wisdom. S. Jerome saith, Scriptura Sancta populis omnibus legitur, ut omnes intelligant: The Holy Scripture is read to all Nations, that all may understand it. It were hard to say, that all the Nations of the world read, or heard the Scriptures in Greek, Hebrew, or Latin, to the intent, they might the better understand them. If these Authorities seem not plain, and sufficient, 
Theodoret. De corrigend. Graecorum's affectib. Lib. 5.  Theodoretus saith further, Hebraici Libri, non modó in Graecum idioma conversi sunt, sed in Romanam quoque Linguam, Aegyptiam, Persicam, Indicam, Armenicam, & Scythicam, atque adeó Sauromaticam: semelque ut dicam, in Linguas omnes, quibus ad hanc diem Nationes utuntur: The Hebrew Books of the Scriptures are translated, not only into the Greek, or Latin tongue, but also into the tongues of egypt, Persia, India, Armenia, Scythia, and Sarmatia: and, to be short, into all the tongues, that until this day are used in the world. This, I trow, is somewhat more, than Greek, Hebrew, and Latin. This whole matter, in my Former Reply to M. harding, 
Articulo. 15.  is further answered.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 3.  
We allure the people to read, and to hear God's Word: they drive the people from it.  

M. harding.  
Ye allure the people busily to hear, and read the Scriptures for evil purpose. And thereby ye have filled their hearts, whom ye have deceived, with pride, so as they think themselves able to judge of the highest questions, that be in divinity. We keep the people, so far as we can for you, from heresies, and require them rather to be hearers, than judges, and to learn necessary knowledge of God's word 
* A mockery. For many hear not one Sermon in twenty years.  at wholesome, and Godly sermons.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We teach not the people, to presume of Knowledge, as you teach them, to presume of Ignorance: But only we exhort them, for the better satisfaction of their consciences, to read the Scriptures, & therein to learn the good will of God. And, not withstanding ye may not allow them to be judges, that is to say, to discern between the Light of God, and your Darkness, yet ye might suffer them to pike up some small crumbs, that fall from the lords Table. How be it, socrates saith, 
Apolog. Sacratis Matth. 11.  The simple unlearned people, in cases of Truth, judgeth oftentimes more uprightly, than the deepest Philosophers. Likewise Christ saith, I thank thee, O Father, for that thou hast hid these things from the wise, and politic, and hast opened the same to little babes.  
But ye will say, The Scriptures are hard, and above the reach of the people. Even so said the Pelagian Heretic julianus. And therefore S. Augustine thus reproveth him for the same: 
Augusti. Contra julian. Li. 5. Ca 1  Exaggeras, quàm sit difficilis, paucisque conveniens erudiris Sanctarum cognitio Literarum: Ye enlarge, and lay out with many words, how hard a matter the knowledge of the Scriptures is, and meet only for a few learned men. S. Chrysostom saith, Scripturae & servo, 
Chrysostom. in Matth. Homil. 1.  & Rustico, & Viduae, & Puero, & illi, qui valdè imprudens esse videatur, faciles sunt ad intelligendum: The Scriptures are easy to the slave, to the Husbandman, to the Widow, to the Child, and to him, that may seem to be very simple of understanding. 
Augusti. Episc 3.  S. Augustine saith, Modus ipse dicendi, quo Sacra Scriptura contexitur, etc. quasi amicus familiaris, sine fuco ad cor loquitur indoctorum, atque doctorum: The phrase, or manner of speech, wherein the Scriptures are written, etc. speaketh without colour as a familiar friend unto the heart, as well of the Unlearned, as of the Learned. S. Cyril saith, 
Cyrillus contra julian. Lib. 7.  Scripturae, ut omnibus essent notae, parvis, & magnis, Vtiliter familiari sermone commendatae sunt, ita ut nullius captum transcendent: The Scriptures, that they might be easy to all men, as well small, as great, are profitably set abroad in familiar speech: so, that they overreach no man's capacity. S. Augustine saith, Sunt quidam homines, 
Augu. in Psal. 131  qui, cùm audierint, quoed debent esse humiles, nihil volunt discere: putantes, quoed, si aliquid didicerint, Superbi erunt, etc. Hos reprehendit Scriptura: Some men, when they hear say, they must be lowly, will learn nothing: thinking, that, if they learn any thing, they shallbe proud. But these are reproved by the Scriptures. Likewise again S. Augustine saith, 
Augu. In Senten. exceptis ex Augustino, Pa. 1067.  Ipsa ignorantia in illis, qui intelligere noluerunt, sine dubitarione peccatum est: In eyes autem, qui non potuerunt, est poena peccati. Ergo, in utrisque non est excusatio, sed justa damnatio: Ignorance in them, that would not understand, without doubt is sin: But in them, that could not understand, it is the punishment of sin. Therefore neither of them both hath good excuse: but either of them hath just damnation.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 4.  
We desire to have our cause known to all the world: they flee to come to any trial.  

M. harding.  
Then why came ye not to the 
A worthy Council of forty Bishops, such as they were: In the time of Paulus. 3  chief, and most lawful consistory of the world, the late general Council at Trent? What trial should we come unto? Our Doctrine hath had too high a teacher, to be tried by men now. It hath been approved too long, to be put in daieinge in these days at the later end of the world.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
That we made not our appearance at your late Chapter at trident, ye have already made our excuse. The journey was too long, to be taken in vain. Ye say, your Doctrine, be it right, be it wrong, may not now be tried, nor put in daieinge. So said sometimes the Old Donatiane Heretics unto S. Augustine, Disputare nolumus: 
Augu. Epist. 169.  & Baptizare volumus: Dispute we will not: But (continue in our error, and) Baptize we wil    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 5.  
We lean unto Knowledge: they unto Ignorance. We trust unto Light: they unto Darkness.  

M. harding.  
Ye lean to the favour of secular Princes, whom by flattery, and Heresy ye may deceive. Crack not of your great knowledge, 
isaiah. 5.  nor of your light. O be to them, crieth our Lord in isaiah, that say, good is evil, and evil is good: that put light for darkness, and darkness for light. Your demeanour is so evil, your Doctrine so false, your tongue so railing, that we take your word for no slander.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We flatter our Princes, M. harding, as Nathan flattered King David: as john baptist flattered Herode: as S. Ambrose flattered Theodosius, and as salt flattereth the green soar. In deed we despise not the Minister of God, as sundry of your fellows have used to do: 
Dorman. Pag. 15. Stanislaus Orichonius in Chimaera.  of whom one doubteth not to say, The Pope is the Head: and Kings, and Emperors are the Feet. another saith, The Priest is so far above the King, as a Man is above a Beast. Such words of contempt, and villainy we have not used. We yield to the King, that is dew to the King: we yield to God, that is dew to God. We say to the Prince, 
Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 33.  as S. Ambrose sommetime said to the Emperor Valentinian: Noli te gravare Imperator, ut putes te in ea, quae Divina sunt, Imperiale aliquod ius habere: Trouble not yourself, 
Flattering of Princes  my Lord, to think, that you have any Princely Power over those things, that pertain to God.  
But if they be flatterers, that humbly advertise, & direct their Liege Princes by the Word of God, 
Petr. De palude: de potestat. pp. 〈◊〉. 40. Non nos. on Glossa. extravag johan 22. ●um inter. in Glossa. Hostien De translaitone Praelais. Quanto.  what are they then, that say, as you say, Totus Mundus non potest accusare Papam: Nemo potest dicere Papae, Domine cur ita facis? Sacrilegij instar esset, disputare de facto Papae: Dominus Deus noster Papa: papapotest, quicquid Deus ipse Potest: The whole world may not accuse the Pope: No ma● may say to the Pope, Sir, why do ye thus? It were a sin as bodde as Sacrilege, to dispute of any the Pope's doings: Our Lord God the Pope: The Pope may do, what so ever God himself may do. These, these, M. harding, and a thousand other your like speeches may seem somewhat to smell of flattery.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division 6. & 7.  
We reverence, as it becometh us, the writings of the Apostles, and Prophets: and they burn them.  
Finally, we in God's cause, desire to stand to God's only judgement: they will stand only to their own.  

M. harding.  
What so ever ye pretend, the cause ye have taken in hand to defend, is not God's cause: neither is this stir, 
Hosiuscontra Brentum Lib. 1.  which ye make in the world, for Christ's sake. ●uther himself, when at a disputation with doctor Eckius, inflamed with anger, and passing the bounds of modesty, was admonished of certain, for as much as it was God's cause, that was treated, to handle the matter more soberly and with the spirit of softness, he broke out into these words: Non propter Deum haecres caepta est, nec propter Deum finietur. This matter is not begun for God's sake, neither for God's sake shall i● be ended. Therefore speak no more to us of God's cause. There be other causes, the move you to do, as ye do. 
* Untruth, standing in open, and wilful corruption.    

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Luther, ye say, in disputation, was inflamed with anger, and passed the bounds of modesty. No doubt, M. harding, if he had had some part of your sobriety, and modesty, he might have done a great deal better. touching the matter, being zealously moved with the iniquity, and wicked wilfulness of his Adversaries, he uttered these words, 
jacobus Andreae contra Hosium. Pag 352.  not of himself, but of friar Eckius, that disputed against him: Eckius, and his fellows never began this matter for God's sake, nor for God's sake will they end it. For he saw, they had begun, & were bent to end it against God, as being inflamed with ambition, and malice, and procured, and hired by the Pope. Even so, M. harding, may we also truly say, You, and your Fellows have not begun these your Contentious Vanities for God's sake: nor for God's sake will you end them.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 8.  
Wherefore, if they will weigh all these things with a quiet mind, & fully bent to hear, & to learn, they will not only allow this determination of ours, who have forsaken Errors, & followed Christ, and his Apostles, but themselves also will foresake their own selves, and join of their own accord to our side, to go with us.   
Here endeth the fifth part.   

The Sixthe part.  

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 1.  
But peradventure they will say, it was treason, to attempt these matters without a sacred General Council: For that therein consisteth the whole force of the Church: there Christ hath promised, he will ever be a present assistant. Yet they themselves, without tarrienge for any General Council, have broken the Commandments of God, and the Decrees of the Apostles: and, as we said a little above, they have spoiled, and disannulled almost all, not only the Ordinances, but even the Doctrine of the Primitive Church. And, where they say, It is not lawful, to make a change without a Council, what was he, that gave us these Laws, or, from whence had they this Injunction?  

M. harding.  
If general Counsels continue in that estimation, and Authority they have ever had, their private conspiracies, and false conveyances in corners be like to be dashed. Now pricketh forth their Secretary, who thinketh himself a fresh soldier in Rhetoric, and giveth the onset upon us, with a blind peradventure. But Sir, what so ever you imagine us to say, touching a General Council, we are not so simple as to grant (which your Peradventure seemeth to surmise of us) that your Heretical, and most ungodly matters, which you speak of, might without blame be attempted by licence of any Council. Such wicked changes in religion, as ye have made, neither is it lawful to make with a Council, nor without a Council.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 2.  
In deed King Agesilaus did but fondly: who, when he had a determinate answer made him of the opinion and will of mighty jupiter, would afterward bring the whole matter before Apollo, to know, whether he would allow thereof, as his Father jupiter had done, or no. But yet should we do much more fondly, when we hear God himself plainly speak to us in his most Holy Scriptures, and may understand by them his will and meaning, if we would afterward (as though this were of none effect) bring our whole cause to be tried by a Council: which were nothing else, but to ask, whether men would allow as God did, and, whether men would confirm God's Commandment by their Authority.  

M. harding.  
For as much as the scriptures, wherein God speaketh unto us, be in sundry places not most open and plain to 
* Vain folly. For what have humane, or Natural senses to do with the sense of God?  humane senses, and many by mistaking them be deceived: were it not well done of you, for the more surety, and better understanding of that ye go about, I mean, in matters concerning religion, 
To take Counsel of men.  to follow the judgement of the Catholic Church represented in general counsels? Yea we say boldly, that surer it is in points of faith to lean to the 
‡ The Expositions of the Father's very seldom agree togeat● er: Yet are they for the most part, contrary to the Church of Rome.  exposition of the Father's agreeing together, and to follow the tradition of the Church: then to trust to yourselves, or to the letter of the scriptures, scanned only by your own wits. For the Church is promised to be lead into all Truth by the holy Ghost. Ye cannot say, any such promise hath been made to your particular company. Therefore it were not fond done, as ye say, but wisely, say we, if ye tried, and examined your Doctrine, which ye pretend to be according unto the Scriptures, by the 
* The tradit 〈◊〉, now used in the Roman Church, are commonly contrary to the Traditions of the ancient Learned Fathers. Therefore this Rule is deceitetul.  rule of Ecclesiastical Tradition, which is the chief rule to try every Doctrine by.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We never despised the judgement of the Learned, and Holy Fathers: but rather take them, and embrace them, as the Witnesses of God's Truth. And therein we find you the more blame worthy, M. harding, for that, having without cause renounced the judgement, and orders of the Primitive Church, and ancient Fathers, as to the wise, and Learned it may soon appear, yet nevertheless ye evermore make vaunt of your Antiquity, and fray the world with a visard of the Church, & a show of Old Fathers: as if a poor Sommonere, that had lost his Commission, would serve Citations by the virtue of his empty bore. And thus have ye set all your vain fantasies in place of God's Church: and your Church, in place of God: as, by the words, and witness of your own Fellows, I have before showed more at large. 
part. 5. Ca 10. Divi 2. Nic. Cusanus de Authoritate Ecclisiae. etc. Hierem 2.  For example, Cardinal Cusanus saith, Nulla sunt Christi Praecepta, nisi quae per Ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt: The Commandments of Christ are no Commandments, unless they be so allowed by the Church.  
Thus ye leave jupiter, and run to Apollo: or rather, ye foresake God, & seek to Man: &, as it is written in the Prophet Hieremie, Ye leave the Fountain of the Water of Life: and rip up broken, and filthy Cisterns, that can hold no Water. Tertullian thus upbraideth the Heathens, 
Tertullian in Apologetico. Clemens Alexandrin in Oratione ad Genies. Chryso. in Epist. ad Galat. Ca 1.  Apud vos de humano arbitratu Divinitas pensitatur: among you the right of God is weighed by the judgement of men. But Clemens Alexandrinus saith, Quoniam ipsum Verbum ad nos venit de Coelo, non est nobis ampliùs eundum ad Humanam Doctrinam: For so much as the word itself, (that is, Christ) is come to us from Heaven, we may not now any more seek unto the Doctrine of Man. Likewise S. Chrysostom saith, Fuisset extremae absurditatis, eum, qui edoctus fuerat à Deo, postea cum hominibus communicate: It had been great folly for S. Paul, having received his Doctrine from God himself, afterward to confer thereof with men, that is to say, with Peter, or james, or with any others.    

The Apology, Cap. 1. Division. 3.  
Why, I beseech you, except a Council will, and command, shall not Truth be Truth, or God be God? If Christ had meant to do so from the beginning, as that he would preach, or teach nothing, without the bishops consent, but refer all this Doctrine over to Annas, & Caiphas, where should now have been the Christian Faith? Or, who at any time should have heard the Gospel taught? Peter verily, whom the Pope hath oftener in his mouth, & more reverently useth to speak of, than he doth of jesus Christ, did boldly stand against the Holy Council, saying, It is better to obey God, then Men. And, after that Paul had once entirely embraced the Gospel, & had received it, not from men, nor by man, but by the only Will of God, he did not take advise therein of flesh, & blood, nor brought his case before his kinsmen, and Brethren, but went forthwith into Arabia, to preach Gods Divine Mysteries, by God's only Authority.  

M. harding.  
If you occupy a flute no better, by my read, you shall give over your piping and flouting. Truth is truth, and God is God, whether any council will or nil. Marry, as for the Truth, and for God, every council lawfully assembled hath will: so against the Truth and against God, it hath no nil. When ye prove unto us, that ye are specially called, as Paul was, and have a special commission 
‡ We preach against your follies, and fantasies: & not against the Doctrine of the Church.  to preach against the Doctrine of the Church, as he had against the wicked jews, than a God's name take no advise of any man, but forthwith preach, and crieout so loud as ye list, so that ye go into Arabia, as Paul did, or where else so ever ye wil For every good man would be loath, England should be troubled with you.    

The Apology, Cap. 2. Division. 1.  
Yet truly, we do not despise Councils, Assemblies, and conferences of Bishops, and Learned men: neither have we done, that we have done, altogether without Bishops, or without a Council. The matter hath been treated in open parliament, with long consultation, and before a notable Synod, and Convocation.  

M. harding.  
Either your tongue agreeth not with your heart, or else I will prove the contrary by your own arguments, which in the next Paragraphe before this ye have huddeled up. For whereas your matters are (as ye ordinarily say) evident by plain scripture, and the Word of God is readen of every man (without distinction and limitation) therefore ye do first of all play as fond a part, as King Agesilaus did, who receiving an answer of mighty jupiter, would afterward bring the matter before Apollo. Yea furthermore, ye do much more fondly than he, if when ye may hear God himself speak plainly to you in the most holy scriptures, ye would bring the whole cause to be tried by a Council.  
How say ye then now, are not these your own proper reasons, etc. your foresaid worshipful reasons, & c? If ye mean (as by reason ye must) the parliaments of these later days, the first of all did make most for you: and yet how open was it for you? Had ye any place at all in it? Were ye admitted within the doors? Or had ye any thing to do in that assembly? Consider them with what consult ation your purposes were concluded. Did they tarry many months about it? Had they Bishops? 
* Untruth enclosed. For they had Divines: & a solemn Disputation was appointed at Weasteminster in the presence of the States of the Realm But your fellows fladde from it.  Had they Divines and the most learned, to reason to and fro with all liberty? Was the Authority of the Universal Church of Christ, and the Doctrine of the Ancient Fathers considered? Ye say in Latin, plenis Comitijs, that is, in the full and whole assembly, as though none at all had there resisted, but every man had yielded to your matters. What say ye then of the spiritual lords, a great part of the parliament, and without all doubt, the part, which must be chiefly and only regarded, when the question is of religion? How many of them gave you their voice to your Gospel? Yea, which of them all did not resist it? One alone, I must confess, was afterward made to break unity, of whom a right good, and Catholic Bishop said to a noble man, we had but one fool among us, and him ye have gotten unto you. But as of the spiritual Lords ye had none at all (except that one, little worthy of the name of a Bishop and lord, whose learning was small, and honour thereby much stained) so of the temporal ye had not all: and so had ye also in the lower house very many, and well learned, that speak against you.  
But let us consider the notable convocation, in which your matter hath been treated. If ye mean the clergy coming together at that first parliament time, of which we speak, it was of Catholics, not of Sacramentaries, 
parliament.  and it put up a bill against your procedings: so far it was of from confirming them. If ye mean any since that time, in which your superintendentships met together, for what cause was it a notable Synod, and a notable convocation?  
Ye be desperate in your lying, and crack of a full Parliament, and a notable Synod, not regarding by what means ye promote your cause to the multitude, and save yourselves from reproach of extreme folly. For otherwise ye, which can so amplify the small and obscure meetings of a few Caluintstes of one little Island, what would ye not say of the last general Council, to which more Nations were assembled together, then are shires in England: more years were bestowed in consultation, than weeks in your full Parliament: 
* A notable great company. There were only forty poor Bishops: and yet some of the samewere no Bishops.  more Bishops defined and subscribed, then were Ministers of all sorts in your notable Synod by many parts.  
Lastly if they will needs have their matters seem to depend of their Parliament, let us not be blamed, if we call it Parliament Religion, Parliament Gospel, parliament Faith.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We will not discuss the Right, & Interest of the parliaments of England. As much, as concerneth God's everlasting Truth, we hold not by parliament, but by God. parliaments are uncertain, & often contrary, as we have seen. But God's Truth is one, and certain, & never changeth. The things, that were so suddenly, and so violently shaken down in the late time of Queen Marie, are now, of God's great mercy, by our most Noble, and Gracious Lady Queen Elizabeth, advisedly, and soberly reared up again, that they may the more firmly continue, and stand the better. What so ever want, ye imagine, was in that parliament, for as much, as we were no part thereof, I trust, we may the more easily be excused. How be it, so scornfully disdeigninge the whole State of so Noble a Realm, ye shall hardly win the opinion, either of Sobriety, or of great Wisdom.  
But your Bishops, ye say, withstood us: and your Brethren in the Convocation promoted a bill against our Doctrine. I know, M. harding, they subscribed then against us with the very same hands, with which, not long before, they had openly protested, and solemnly sworn against the Pope: & with which they have sithence received, and embraced our whole Religion, to the utter condemnation of all your follies.  
Only one fool, ye say, ye had amongst all your Bishops: And he was soon gotten to come to us. Happy were they, M. harding, that had but one fool in so great a company. If some of your Lovanian clergy had then been Bishops, I think, they might have been somewhat better stored. notwithstanding, it was not well done, of your part, so uncivilely to call your Brother fool. All the rest of your Brethren, very few excepted, have done the like. Yet fools, I trow, ye will not call them: lest happily your own wits be called in question.  
Where ye would seem to say, that the parliament holden in the first year of the Queen's majesties Reign, was no parliament, for that your Bishops refused wilfully, to agree unto the Godly Laws there concluded, ye seem therein to bewray in yourself some want of skill. The wise, and learned could soon have told you, that in the parliaments of England, matters have evermore used to pass, not of necessity, by the special consent of the archbishops, and Bishops, as if without them no Statute might lawfully be enacted: but only by the more part of the voices, yea although all the archbishops, and Bishops were never so earnestly bent against it. And Statutes, so passing in parliament, only by the voices of the Lords Temporal, without the consent, and agreement of the Lords Spiritual, have nevertheless always been confirmed, and ratified by the Real assent of the Prince, and have been enacted, & published under the names of the Lords Spiritual, 
parliament.  and Temporal.  
Read the Statutes of King Idwarde the first. There shall ye find, that in a parliament solemnly holden by him at S. edmund's Bury, the archbishops, and Bishops were quite shut forth. And yet the parliament held on, & good, and wholesome Laws were there enacted, the departing, or absence, or malice of the Lords Spiritual notwithstanding. In the Records thereof it is written thus, 
An. Dom. 1296.  Habito Rex cum suis Baronibus Parlamento, & Clero excuso, Statutum est, etc. The King, keeping the parliament with his Barons, the clergy, (that is to say, the archbishops, & Bishops) being shut forth, it was enacted, etc.  
Likewise, 
Anno 1273. In Provisione de Martonae, Ca 9  In Provisione de Martona, in the time of King Henry the third, whereas matter was moved of Bastardy, touching the Legitimation of Bastards borne before Marriage, the Statute passed wholly with the Lords Temporal, whether the Lords Spiritual would, or no: Yea, and that contrary to the express Decrees, 
Extra. Qui Filj sint Legitimi.  and Canons of the Church of Rome. The like hereof, as I am informed, may be found, Richardi. 2. An. 11. Ca 3. How be it, in these cases, I must confess, I walk somewhat without my compass. touching the judgement hereof, I refer me self wholly unto the Learned.  
Further, whereas ye call the Doctrine of Christ, that now by God's great Mercy, and to your great grief is universally, and freely Preached, a parliament Religion, and a parliament Gospel, (for such sobriety becometh you well, and may stand you in steed, when learning faileth) ye might have remembered, that Christ himself, at the beginning, was universally received, and honoured through this Realm, by assent of parliament: and further, that without parliament, your Pope himself was never received, no not in the lay time of Ouéene Marie. Yea, & even then, his Holiness was clogged with parliament Conditions, that, what so ever had been determined in parliament, and was not repealed, were it never so contrary to his will, and Canons, should remain still inviolable, and stand in force. Otherwise, his Holiness had gone home again. Such, M. harding, is the Authority of a parliament. Verily, if parliaments of Realms be no parliaments, then will your Pope be no Pope. Therefore with like Sabrietie, & gravity of speech, ye might have said, Our Fathers in old times had a parliament Christ: And your late Fathers, and Brethren had a parliament Faith, a parliament Mass, and a parliament Pope.  
Neither is it so strange a matter, to see Ecclesiastical Causes debated in parliament. Read the Laws of King Inas, King Elfrede, King Edward, King Ethelstane, 
Leges Canuti.  King Edmund, King Edgare, King Canute: And ye shall find, that our godly Forefathers, the Princes, and Peers of this Realm, never vouchsafed to entreat of matters of Peace, or War, or otherwise touching the Common state, before all controversies of Religion, and Causes Ecclesiastical had been concluded. King Canute in his parliament, holden at Winchester upon Christemasse day, after sundry Laws, and Orders made, touching the Faith, the keeping of Holy Days, Public Prayers, learning of the lords Prayer, receiving of the Communion thrice in the year, the manner, and form of Baptism, fasting, and other like matters of Religion, in the end thereof saith thus, I am sequitur Institutio legum Saecularium: Now followeth an order for Temporal Laws.  
Thus we see, that the godly Catholic Princes in Old times, thought it their duty, before all other affairs of the Common Weal, first to determine matters of Religion, and that even by the parliaments of this Realm.  
In a parliament holden by King William the Conqueror it is written thus: 
Tridentine council. Superintendentes.  Rex, quia Vicarius Summi Regis est, ad hoc constituitur, ut Regnum, & populum Domini, & super omnia, Sanctam Ecclesiam, Regar, & defendat, etc. The King, for as much as he is the Vicar of the Highest King, is therefore appointed to this purpose, that he should Rule, and defend the Kingdom, and People of the Lord, & above all things the Holy Church, etc. Hereby it appeareth, that Kings, and Princes are specially, and of purpose appointed by God, not only to defend, but also to Govern, and Rule the Holy Church.  
How he it, we give God thanks for the same, that is: and trust, that, for his own names sake, he will confirm, that he hath begun. The hearts of Princes, and Determinations of parliaments are in his hand. If any thing want, the Arm of the Lord is not shortened: He is able to supply the same.  
Ye magnify much your late Chapter of trident, 
Concil. Trident. Sub Carolo Quinto.  which you would so feign have called a General Council: with so many Nations: so many Bishops: so many years of Consultation. Yet notwithstanding of all these so many, and so many Nations, and Countries, if it may please you to sit down, & to take the account, ye shall find there were only poor forty Bishops, and certain of the same, (as Richard Pates, the Bishop of Woorcester, and Blind sir Roberte, 
Robert. Coecus. vide Concil. Trident. sub Paulo. 3 Mathias Plac. Illyricus in Protest. contra Concil. Trident. Pagin. 79.  the archbishop of Armach) that only had the bare titles of bishoprics, and in deed were no Bishops. Two others of your said so many, and so Notable Learned, & Holy Bishops, being at your said worthy Council, were even there killed in advowtry: y● one stricken down with a Club: the other taken in the manor by the Husband, & hanged by the neck, out of a great Lucan window, into the street. For these, and other causes, Henry the Frenche ●nge openly, by his ambassador, protested against the same Council in the presence of all your so many, and so many Bishops there, and said, 
Io Sle●danus, Li. 23. Anno. 1551.  It was not a Council General, but a Private covent, or Assembly of a few certain people summoned together for gains sake.  
Now, 
conventus quorundam Privatus utilitatis gratia institut●es.  whereas it hath pleased you, as well here, as else where, to sport yourself with Superintendentes, and Superintendentshippes, and to refresh your wits with so vain a fancy of your own, if ye had been so deeply travailed in the Doctoures, New, or Old, as ye bear us in hand, ye might easily have known, that a Superintendente, is an ancient name, and signifieth none other, 
Augustin. De civit. Li. 19 Ca 19 Augustin. in Psalm. 126.  but a Bishop. S. Augustine saith, Vocabulum Episcopatus inde ductum est, quoed ille, qui praeficitur, eyes, quibus praeficitur, Superintendit. Ergo, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Latinè dicere possumus Superintendere. Again he saith, Quod Graecè dicitur, Episcopus, hoc Latinè, Superintentor, interpretatur. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. 1. ad Timoth. Home 10. Hieronym. Ad ●uagrium. Anselm ad Philippen. Ca 1. Beda. 1. Petri. 2. Petrus de Palude, De Potest. Colla. Apostolis, Arti. 1.  Episcopus ex eo dicitur, quoed omnes inspiciat. S. Jerome saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, id est, Superintendentes. Anselimus saith, Episcopus Latinè Superintendens dicitur. Beda likewise saith, Episcopus Latinè Superintendens dicitur. Petrus de Palude saith, Episcopus dicitur Superintendens: Et Petrus fuit Superintendens toti Mundo: Peter was the Superintendente of the whole World. Your own Thomas of Aquine saith, Episcopi dicuntur ex eo, quòd Superintendunt. Therefore, M. harding, if Modesty move you not, yet at least for your gravities sake, leave plaieinge with these vain, and childish follies. The Bishops of England have this day, not only the same Name, but also the same room, and Authority, and jurisdiction, that other Bishops have ever had before. 
Thom. 2. 2. quae. 184. Ar. 6.     

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 1.  
But, touching this Council, which is now summoned by Pope Pius, wherein men so lightly are condemned, being neither called, 
All soars salved by the Council of trident.  nor heard, nor seen, it is easy to guess, what we may look for, or hope of it.  

M. harding.  
The General Council of Trent is now at length by God's special favour concluded and ended. What have ye to say to it? Forbear your accustomed lying, what have ye to say to it? For 
* Untruths open, and without same. For example, your stews, your Courteghianes, and Fornications were never touched.  matters of Faith, what is not sound and true? For * manners, what sore lacketh due salve? For * discipline, what disorder hath not wholesome restrainctes and punishments? What defects be not providently considered, how to be supplied? What abuses be not required to be taken a way, as far, as man's wist could devise, and the weakness of the present age can bear?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
All this matter is fully answered by What, and by What. What matter of Faith? What manners? What disorder? What defects? What Abuses? But all these whattes notwithstanding, what if your Pope, your Cardinals, and your clergy, with the whole disorder of your Roman Church, with so many Priests keeping Concubines, with so many Non Residentes, with so many dumb Bishops, and with so many thousands of common harlots, be in case now, even as they were before? Will ye tell us nevertheless, that all your sores be sufficiently salved? Or, must we believe, that your keeping of Concubines, your open Stews, and Fornications etc. be no sores? Verily, S. bernard saith, 
Bernard. in Cantica. Sermo. 33. Hulcote in Lib. Sapien. Lectio. 23 Bernard. in Conuers. Pauli. Bapt. Mantuan. fast. Lib. 4. Ad Leonem. 10. Concil. Trident.  as it is alleged before, Intestina, & insanabilis est plaga Ecclesiae: The wound of the Church bleedeth inwardly, and is past cure: And again, A planta pedis, usque ad verticem Capitis non est in ea sanitas: There is no whole part in the Church from the sole of the foot, to the top of the Head. Baptista Mantuanus saith, Aegrotatqúe Fides iam proxima morti: The Faith of the Roman Church is sick, and almost dead.  
In your Old Latin Translation of the Bible, there be sundry errors, so open, and so gross, that a very Babe may soon espy them: as it may more plainly appear by Budaeus, Erasmus, Valla, Faber, Lindanus, and others. Yet, that notwithstanding, your Council saith precisely thus, Ne quis Veterem vulgaram Editionem reijcere quovis praetextu audeat, vel praesumat: Let no man dare, or presume by any manner of colour, to refuse the Old Common Translation of the Bible: As if your Councils were yourposely summoned, to maintain errors. If ye will so wilfully deceive us in sensible matters, how may we then trust you in matters of Faith?    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 2.  
In times past, when Nazianzene saw in his days, how men in such Assemblies were so blind, and wilful, that they were carried with affections, 
Nazian. ad Procopium.  and laboured more to get the victory, than the Truth, he pronounced openly, that he never had seen a good end of any Council. What would he say now, if he were alive at this day, and understood the heavinge, & shovinge of these men? For at that time, though the matter were laboured on all sides, yet the controversies were well heard, and open errors were put clean away by the general voice of all parts: But these men will neither have the case to be freely disputed, nor yet how many errors soever there be, suffer they any to be changed. For it is a common custom of theirs, often, and shamelessly to boast, that their Church cannot err, that in it there is no fault, & that they must give place to us in nothing. Or, if there be any fault, yet must it be tried by their Bishops, and abbots only, because they be the directors, and Rulers of matters: for that they be the Church of God. Aristotle saith, that a city cannot consist of Bastards: but whether the church of God may consist of these men▪ let themselves consider. For doubtless, neither be their Abbates, abbots in deed, nor their bishops natural right Bishops.  

M. harding.  
Gregory Nazianzene in his Epistle to Procopius saith thus: I refuse to come to whatsoever Council of Bishops. Because I could never yet to this day see the end of any Council end wed with any profit, and after which, things amiss were not rather made more grievous, then healed. Nazianzene in that Epistle spoke of 
* Untruth. For he speaketh of all manner of Councils, as well General, as Provincial: His words be, Prorsus decrevi fugere Omnem Conuentum Episcoporum.  provincial Councils, specially those that were holden in his troublesome times, where most commonly Heretics through favour of their deceived Princes bore the swea. Which in matters of Faith could hardly then obtain any credit among the Catholics, unless they had been confirmed by the authority of the Bishop of Rome: of which sort at that age were few. Those other Nazianzene had experience of, of these he had not. Albeit in deed the utility of the Nicence Council in his time, that is to say, within so few years after the same was holden, was not yet thoroughly espied, and fully known abroad. Neither would he, if he were alive at this day, reprove the Holy general Council of Trent, as ye do. For why should he?  

‡ This is a lusty kind of Divinity.  And how shameless be ye, to require us, to yield and give place unto you? Who made you judges over us? ‡ Who gave you commission? Where is your warrant?  
What need ye to show your malice so much at Bishops, and abbots? Which of them hurteth you? Have ye not in prison, or in custody 
* Untruth. For they are committed only by the appointment of the Prince.  at your appointment all the Bishops of England, one Apostata yet living excepted, which after sundry flight's and changing of coats, is fled from the tents of the Church to your scattered troops? The abbots, have ye not driven them away? Be ye yet a frayed of their shadows? As by Aristotle a City can not consist of Bastards, no more can the Church of England consist of such Bastard Bishops, as ye be: what number of abbots ye have left in Cloisters, such number of true Bishops have ye left in Churches. One must I still except, who is a true Bishop by consecration (as I understand) though a false man by Apostasy, and going from his Faith, and from his Religion.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
touching the unlucky success of Councils, the Ancient Father Nazianzene saith thus, 
Gregor. Nazianzenus ad Procopium. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Equidem, ut verè, quod res est, scribam, prorsus decrevi fugere Omnem Conuentum Episcoporum. Nullius enim concilij bonum exitum unquam vidi. Concilia enim non minuunt mala, sed augent potiùs: To say the truth, I am utterly determined never to come to any Council of Bishops. For I never yet saw good end of any Council. For Councils abate not ill things, but rather increase them. These words thus uttered, whether they be universally true, or otherwise, I will not reason. It may seem hereby, this Learned Father, for his time, by experience found them true. And for aught, that may appear to the contrary, notwithstanding any thing contained in your Gloze, he seemeth to utter the same, as well of General Councils, as of Provincial.  
Certainly after the Great General Council of Nice, the Arian Heretics waxed more, and more mighty, then ever they had been before. The Emperors Constantius, and Valens, with their Wives, and Courts became Arians. Constantinus the Great himself was also doubted to be an Arian. 
The success of counsels. Monks, and Abbates.  Liberius the Bishop of Rome, and Hosius that famous Learned Bishop of Spain, gave their hands unto the Arians. Ten several sundry Provincial councils gave their voices with the Arians. S. Jerome saith, Ingemuit totus Orbis, & Arianum se esse miratus est: The whole world began to groan, and marveled, that it had taken part with the Arians. Therefore Nazianzene saith, He never saw Council, 
Sozomenus. Hieronym. Aduersus Luciferianos.  nor Provincial, nor General, that ended well: for that, as one saith, The greater side oftentimes over weigheth the better. Even so said the French kings ambassador, in the behalf of his Prince, in your Chapter at trident: Nostra, Patrumqúe nostrorum, & Auorum memoria, Synodos indictas fuisse, Episcopos convenisse, 
Tit. Livius. Maior pars vincit meliorem.  maximos in Germania, atque Italia conventus peractos esse, scimus. Vix tamen ullus, aut perexiguus inde fructus Christianitati constirit: We know, that both in our Grandfathers, and Fathers, and our own time, Councils have been summoned, 
Oratio Synodica Legati Regis Franciae. An. 1562.  Bishops have met together, great and solemn Assemblies have been kept, as well in Germany, as in Italy: yet scarcely any good at all, or very little good came thereof to the state of Christendom.  
Concerning Abbates, and Monasteries, we have said before. We have as many Abbates in England this day, as either Christ ever had, or his Apostles. notwithstanding one of your Learned fellows of Louvain, for the good will he beareth to that Religion, 
Copus. Fol. 284.  telleth us, that the Apostles were Monks, & Christ himself was the Abbate. The Abbates, and Monks, that were in old times, were men given to Study, 
August. Epist 81. August. Epist. 76  and Learning. And out of Monasteries learned men were then taken, as out of Schools, and Universities, to the rule, and government of the Church. But your Abbates now are as much like those Abbates, as your Church is like the Primitive Church of Christ.  
Erasmus saith, 
Erasm. in Scholijs in Epistolam ad Rusticum Monachum.  Haud scio, an nunc magis expediret Ecclesiae Christianae, si pauciora essent Monasteria, essetque omnium idem Cultus, eaedemque preces, eademque vitae ratio: I know not whether it were better for the Church of Christ, that there were fewer Monasteries: and that all men had one Service of God, one kind of Prayer, and one order of Life.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 3.  
But grant, they be the Church: let them be heard speak in Councils: let them alone have authority, to give consent: yet in old time, when the Church of God (if ye will compare it with their Church) was very well governed, both Elders, and Deacons, as saith Cyprian, and certain also of the Common People were called thereunto, and made acquainted with Ecclesiastical matters.  

M. harding.  
Ah Sirs, would ye have the common people come to the General Council? Whom mean ye, I pray you? Tinkers and Tapsters. fydlers and pipers, such as your ministers be? Alas poor souls. what should they do there? For there is no tinking nor tippling, no fidlinge nor Pypinge. There may they shut up both budgets and mouths. For neither can they speak in such an audience to be understanded, nor can they understand, what is spoken. Look in your Books better, and you shall find Cyprian to make little for your purpose.  
Had your matter been good, it might have been defended without lies. Being as it is, altogether beside Truth and reason, for some colour of mainetenance of the same, ye pass all measure in lying. Where saith S. Cyprian that certain of the common people were called to Ecclesiastical Councils? Yea, specially where saith he, 
‡ S. Cyprians words be plain, Nihil sine consensu plebis, etc. Lib. 3. Epist. 10.  that the common people were made judges of Ecclesiastical matters, 
priests unlearned.  for so hath your Latin, which not without guile your Lady interpreter commonly turneth, were made acquainted with Eclcesiasticall matters? If you had meant true dealing. Defender, you would have quoted the place: but you knew thereby your falsehood should have been espied. 
‡ Your 〈◊〉 deceiveth 〈◊〉 It is not there.  The place which you mean, doubtless is in the second tome of S. Cyprians works, where we find the sentences of the Bishops of afric, De Haereticis Baptizandis: Which proveth your strange saying, by you fathered upon that holy Martyr, nothing at al. The words be these, Cùm in unum Carthagini convenissent, etc. When many Bishops in the first day of September were assembled together at Carthage, out of the province of afric, Numidia, Mauritanta, with their Priests, and Deacons, the most part of the people also being present etc.  
Now what can you gather out of them for your purpose more, but that a great number of the people were present only in the Church, or other place, where the Bishops were assembled? That certain of the common people were called to this Council, there is no such word mentioned, nor by Cyprian, nor by any else. 
* Untruths, boldly avouched. Read the A●iweare.  Neither were the Priests themselves (which this youthful Gentil woman interpreteth Elders) and Deacons * called thither, but they * attended upon the Bishops, as in such case it hath been accustomed: for sentence none might give, in any Council, but * only Bishops. Then how much less were the common people called to that Council, specially to sit as judges in Ecclesiastical matters? Marry, that you would so have it, I think well. For such confusion might best serve you to procure the overthrow of good order, in which the Church is governed: which if it be maintained duly, your disordered and rebellious state will soon be confounded.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Your Tinkers, and Tapsters, M. harding, are ashamed in your behalf, to see your folly. A poor silly jester, to win his dinner, would be loath to scoff so coldly. Certain of our clergy want the knowledge of Rhetoric, Logic, Philosophy, the Hebrew, the Greek, and the Latin tongues: Therefore ye call them Tinkers, and Tapsters. Such is the Sobriety, and Modesty of your talk. Of what School, or tongue then are your Priests, M. harding, that, for the more part, can neither Speak Latin, nor Read English, nor understand the Articles of their Faith, nor any portion of the Scriptures: Clouds without Rain: Lanterns without Light: Salt without savour: Blind guides: Dumb Dogs: that, as one saith, seem to have their souls given them in steed of salt, to keep them from stinking? Of what Art, or Occupation was he, 
De Con. Dist. 4 Retulerunt. julius. pp. 2. Alphon. Lib. 1. Cap. 4.  that Baptized a child in Latin, in this sort, In nomine Patria, & Filia, & Spirita Sancta? What a skilful Clerk was your Pope julius. 2. that assigning a warrant, in steed of Fiat, wrote, Fiatur? Your own Doctor, Alphonsus de Castro, saith, Constat plures Papas adeo ' illiteratos esse, ut Grammaticam penit ùs ignorent: It is most certain, that many Popes be so unlearned, that they be utterly ignorant of their Grammar. And, being utterly ignorant of their Grammare Rules, I beseech you, for what other profound science of Logic, or Philosophic, 
Felinus, de Rescriptis. Si quan● do.  can ye praise them? An other of your Doctoures saith, Papa propter defectum literaturae non potest deponi: The Pope may not be deposed for lack of Learning. That is to say, the Pope, though he be never so ignorant, or void of knowledge, yet is as good a Pope, as the best.  
An other of your Doctors saith, 
Aureum Speculum, In Antilogia.  Venalitate Curiae Romanae, inaniter praeficiuntur Lenones, Coqui, Stabularij equorum, & Pueri: Through the bribene of the Court of Rome, Bawds, Cooks, Ostlers, and Children be placed in Offices to govern the Church. Shall we therefore say, as you say, that all your Priests be Fiddlers, and Pipers, Tinkers, and Tapsters?  
Some certain of our clergy be ignorant in the tongues, as yours be: but not ignorant in knowledge, 
2. Corin. 11.  as yours be. The worst of them seeth, & lamenteth your wilful ignorance. 
priests unlearned.  S. Augustine saith, Multò minùs malum est, indoctum esse, 
August. contra Academic. Li. 3. Ca 7.  quàm indocilem: Lease hurt is it, to be unlearned, then to be wilful, and unapt to learn. Irenaeus saith, Melius est, & utilius, idiotas, & parum scientes existere, 
Irenae. Lib. 2. Ca 45.  & per Charitatem proximos Deo fieri, quàm putare se multum scire, & multa expertos, in suum Deum blasphemos inveniri: Better is it a great deal, for men to be ignorant, and to know but little, and by love to draw near to God, then to think themselves to know much, and to have great experience, and yet to be found blasphemers against God.  
S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. De Fide, Li. 1. Cap. 3.  Non in Dialectica complacuit Deo, saluum facere populum suum. Regnum enim Dei in simplicitate Fidei est, non in contentione Sermonis: It pleased not God, by Logic to save his people: For the Kingdom of God standeth not in contention of talk, 
Ambros. De Incarnatione Domini. Ca 9  but in simplicity of Faith. Likewise he saith, Verba Philosophorum excludit simplex Veritas Piscatorun: The simple plain Faith of Fishers confoundeth the words of the learned Philosophers. The Ancient Father Origen saith, Sapientes huius saeculi, 
Origen. in Cantica, Homili. 4.  videntes absque Arte Grammatica, & peritia Philosophica consurgere muros evangelii, v●lut cum irrisione quadam dicunt, perfacilé hoc posse destrui calliditate Sermonum, per astutas fallacias, & Argumenta Dialectica: The wise men of this world, seeing the walls of the Gospel to rise up without Grammare, and profound knowledge in Philosophy, say scornfully amongst themselves, that all this by subtlety of speech, and crafty shifts, and Logical Arguments, may full easily be shaken down.  
It appeareth by the Councils of Carthage, 
Conci. Carthag. 3. Can. 19 Et Concil. Hippon.  and Hippo Regius, that in old times Children under fourteen years of age were admitted to be Readers in the Church: and, notwithstanding either their age, or want of learning, the people was well contented, with silence, and reverence to give ear unto them.  
S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysostom. in Genes. Homi. 44.  in humanis negotijs, quando Rex Diademate coronatus, etc. Even in worldly affairs, when the King sendeth soorthe his Proclamations, the Currer, or poursevante is oftentimes a man of small account, and sommetime so base, that he never knew his own Father, or Grandefather. But they that receive the Proclamation, have no regard unto him, that brought it: notwithstanding, in respect of the kings letters, that he brought, they give him honour, and with silence, and reverence give attendance to the Proclamation.  
These simple unlearned ones, whom you so disdainfully despise, shall rise up in the day of our Lord, and condemn you with all your knowledge. God is able to make the poor Ass to speak, 
Numer. 22. Hieronym. in Psalm. 82.  to control blind balaam's wilful purposes. S. Jerome saith, Paulus, qui Soloecismos facit in loquendo, Christi Crucem portat, &, quasi triumphans, omnes capit: Totum Orbem subegit, ab Oceano usque ad Mare Rubrum: Paul, that is not able to utter his mind in congrue speech, beareth the Croise of Christ, and taketh all men Prisoners, as if it were in triumph: from the Ocean unto the Red Sea, he subdued the whole world. Likewise S. Ambrose saith, Non quaero, 
Ambrosi. Ad Grattanum de Fide, Lib. 1. Ca 5.  quid loquantur Philosophi: requiro quid faciant. Soli in suis Gymnasijs remanserunt. Vide, quàm Fides Argumentis praeponderet. Illi quotidiè à suis consortibus deseruntur, qui copiosé disputant: Isti quotidiè crescunt, qui simpliciter credunt. Non creditur Philosophis: Creditur Piscatoribus: I demand not, what these great learned Philosophers say, but what they do. They are forsaken, and left alone in their Schools. Behold, how much more weight there is in Faith, then in Arguments. They with their profound Reasons are daily forsaken of their fellows: These with their Simple Faith go forward, and increase daily. men believe not the learned Philosophers: They believe unlearned Fishers.  
Priests, ye say, this youtheful Gentlewooman interpreteth Elders. OM. harding, little needeth the godly Learned, & virtuous Lady, to fear your so vumanly, and childish toys. If ye had been either so sagely studied, as ye pretend, & your friends have thought, have 
Priests, Deacons, and Lay men in councils.  ye might soon have learned, that Presbyter, a Priest, is nothing else, but Senior, that is, an Elder. And therefore, whereas S. Paul saith, Aduersus Presbyterum accusationem ne admiseris: S. Cyprian translating the same, saith thus, Aduersus Maiorem natu accusationem ne receperis. Your own doctor Thomas Aquin●s saith, Presbyteri in Graeco dicuntur, quasi Seniores. 
1. Timoth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Your own Gratian saith, Presbyter Graecé, Latinè Senior interpretatur. S. Jerome saith, Idem est Presbyter, qui Episcopus. These two words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Cypria. ad Quirinum. Li 3. Ca 76.  are expounded in Latin, Natu maior, Natu maximus. So Plutarch saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Old Trees: So Nazianzene saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: going by a staff, as old men use to do. Therefore, 
Thomas Secundae Secundae. quast. 184 arti. 6.  M. harding, it had been more for your gravity, to have spared these youtheful follies.  
Ye say, The Priests, and Deacons waited only upon the Bishops: but Sentence in Council they might give none. 
Dist 21. Cl●ros. Hieronym. ad Titum, Cap. 1. Plutarch. in Publicola.  This tale were true, M. harding, if every your word were a Gospel. But S. Luke would have told you far otherwise. For, speaking of the first Christian Council, holden in y● Apostles time, he saith thus: Conuenerunt Apostoli, & Seniores, ut dispicerent de hoc negotio: The Apostles, and Elders met together, to take order, touching this matter. And again in the Conclusion, Placuit Apostolis, 
Actorum. 15. Nicephorus, Li. 8. Cap 15.  & Senioribus, cum tota Ecclesia: It seemed good to the Apostles, and Elders, together with the whole Church. Nicephorus saith, Athanasius inter Diaconos Alexandriae Primarius, non minima pa●s Nicenae Synodi: Athanasius being (not a Bishop, but) one of the chief Deacons of Alexandria, was not the least part of the Council of Nice. 
Tertullian in Apologetico.  Tertullian saith, President probati quique Seniores, honorem istum non pretio, sed testimonio adepti: The Judges in such Ecclesiastical Assemblies be the best allowed Elders, having obtained that honour, not for money, but by the witness of their Brethren. 
Concil. Nicen. 2. Actio. 2. 4 & 6  And in the second Council of Nice, Petrus Protopresbyter, and Petrus Presbyter, not being Bishops, but only Priests, sent thither by Adrianus the Bishop of Rome, gave their assents, and subscribed their names before all the Bishops.  
touching S. Cyprian▪ ye say, as your gravity, and modesty leadeth you, We lie, without colour, and pass measure in lying. And here, as men do, that go by guess, & answer long before they know, ye find out a place in S. Cyprian, that we thought not of: and, upon affiance thereof, ye blow up your trump, and call us Liars. How be it, wise men think him a hasty judge, that pronounceth before he know the cause. 
Cyprian. Lib. 3. Epist. 10.  S. Cyprian saith, A primordio Episcopatus mei, statui, nihil sine consilio vestro, & sine consensu Plebis, mea privatim sententia, gerere: From my first entering into the Bishopric, I have determined to do nothing by mine own authority, without your advice (being the Priests, & Deacons), and without the consent of the people. For doing the contrary hereof, the ancient Father Origen rebuketh Bishops of Pride, and stateliness. Thus he saith, Quis hodiè corum, 
Origen. in Exodum, Homil. 11.  qui populis praesunt, Consilium dignatur inferioris saltem Sacerdotis accipere? Ne dixerim Laici, vel Gentilis: What one now adays, of all the Bishops, that have the oversight of the people, vouched saveth to take the Council of any inferior Priest? I will not say, of a Lay man, or of an Heathen. S. Ambrose, touching a case of Faith against the Arians, 
Ambros. Lib. ●. Epis. 32.  saith thus: Veniant, si qui sunt, ad Ecclesiam. Audiant cum populo: Non ut quisquam judex resideat: sed ut unusquisque de suo affectu habeat examen: If there be any of them, let them come to the Church: Let them give care, and hearken with the people: Not that any man there shall sit as judge: but that every man may have the examination of his own mind.  
To conclude, your own Pope Nicolas, writing unto Michael the Greek Emperor, 
Epist. Nicolai pp. ad Imp. Michaelem.  saith thus, Vbinam legistis, Imperatores, Antecessores vestros, Synodalibus conventionibus interfuisse? Nisi fortè in quibusdam, ubi de Fide tractatum est: quae universalis est: quae omnium communis est: quae non solùm ad Clericos, verùmetiam● ad Laicos, & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos: Where did your Majesty ever read, that your Predecessoures', being Emperors, were ever present at the Assemblies of Councils? unless it were, when question was moved concerning the Faith. For Faith is Universal, and common to all men, and belongeth, not only to the Priests, but also to the Lay men, and generally to all Christians. But hereof we shall have occasion to speak more hereafter.    

The Apology, Cap. 3. Division. 4.  
But, I put case, these Abbates, & Bishops, have no knowledge: what if they understand nothing, what Religion is, nor how we ought to think of God? I put case, the pronouncing, & ministering of the Law be decayed in Priests, and good counsel fail in the Elders, 
Micheae. 3.  & as the Prophet Micheas saith, The Night be unto them in steed of a vision, and darkness in steed of Prophesienge: Or, 
Psal. 56.  as Esaias saith, What if all the watchmen of the city be become blind? What if the Salt have lost his proper strength and saverinesse, 
Matth. 5.  and as christ saith, be good for no use, scant worth the casting on the dounghil?  

M. harding.  
The world knoweth so well, (yea Heaven also) the great worthiness of those Fathers in every respect, that, I should do them wrong here to praise them, for that by your fond surmises you seek their dispraise.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Heaven, 
Mathias Flacius Illyricus, in Protestatione contra Concil. Triden Pag. 79.  and Earth knoweth, M. harding, that two of your Reverend worthy Fathers, notwithstanding their virtues, and all their great worthiness, were taken, and slain in advowtry, even there present at your Council. Therefore ye do yourself some wrong, in respect of your credit, so wastefully to bestow your praises.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 1.  
Well yet then, they will bring all matters before the Pope, who cannot err. To this I say, first it is a madness to think, that the Holy Ghost taketh his flight from a General council, to run to Rome, to the end if he doubt, or stick in any matter, and cannot expound it of himself, he may take counsel of some other Spirit, I wot not what, that is better learned, than himself. For if this be true, what needed so many Bishops, with so great charges, & so far iorneys, to have assembled their Convocation at this present at trident? It had been more wisdom, and better, at least it had been a much nearer, and handsomer way, to have brought all things rather before the Pope, & to have come straight forth, & have asked counsel at his Divine Breast. Secondly, it is also an unlawful dealing, to toss our matter from so many Bishops, & Abbates, and to bring it at last to the trial of one only man, specially of him, who himself is appeached by us of heinous, and foul enormities, and hath not yet put in his Answer: who hath also aforehand condemned us without judgement by order pronounced, and ere ever we were called, to be judged.  

M. harding.  
We may less wonder at your jesting in other things, sith now we set you scoff and jest in things touching God himself. Sir, set you so light by the Holy Ghost. 
* We Honour, and adore the Holy Ghost, as very God: But you shamefully abuse the name of God.  as thus unreverently to talk of his flight and running to Rome, of his doubting, and sticking, of his unableness to declare doubtful cases, of asking counsel of an other spirit? Who ever uttered such vile talk of the Holy Ghost, but some vile caitiff, quite void of his grace? Can not you conceive that reasonably the determinations of Counsels be referred to the Pope Christ's Vicar in Earth, unless ye utter such unreverent and profane scoffs? It had become a wicked Celsus, a Porphyrius, a julian, thus to talk, rather than any Christian Hickescorner. You should at lest have looked on your square Cap, and your white rochet, if you have any: if nothing else, they would have told you, that such profane lightness became not your person.  
Concerning the point itself, you touch, 
‡ Untruths huddled together without shame.  although the Pope have that Privilege, which Christ ‡ ‡ prayed to his Father for to be given unto Peter, 
Luke. 22.  as being Peter's Successor, that his ‡ Faith fail not, and that be confirm his Brethren, and therefore be an ‡ assured judge in matters of Faith: yet this notwithstanding, counsels be not assembled together in vain. For the Fathers of the Council do 
* A sage kind of mockery. For then doth not the Pope Confirm his Brethren: but rather is Confirmed by his Brethren.  help the Faith and Doctrine of the highest Pastor. Wherefore in the first council at jerusalem, 
Act. 15.  when as a great question rose, and Peter had said his judgement, not propped with any testimony of the Holy Scriptures, james approved it, adding thereto the testimonies of the Prophets. For God's providence so tendereth the Church, that the chief 
‡ By this Divinity james was a member of Peter.  members, though they depend of the ‡ Head, yet defend and help the Head.  
Wherefore Seda admonisheth discreetly, 
Lib. Retra. in act. Apostolorum.  that Paul conferred the Gospel, which he had Preached amongst the Gentiles, with the other Apostles, seeking warily to be resolved, whether he Preached rightly of the ceasing of the observances of the Law. Not that he doubted aught thereof himself, (saith he) but that the minds of them, that were in doubt, might be confirmed by the Authority of that apostolic Council.  
To that you allege secondly, as a great inconvenience, we tell you, that forasmuch as the Pope is at every general Council lawfully assembled, either in person, as sundry Popes have been, or by his Legates: 
* Wisely. The Holy Ghost that is present at the Council, for better advise, taketh counsel of the Pope.  neither it is an unlawful dealing, nor such tossinge, as you term it, matters maturely debated in the Council, to be referred to the Pope head of the Council, not so much for a new trial, as for final confirmation. The Fathers of the Nicene council besought S. Syluestes●, that what they had ordained, he would confirm and ratify. And Leo what things the Council of Chalcedon had decreed, touching matters of faith, saith, that he approveth them. And the Council itself speaking to Leo, saith thus: Decretis tuis nostrum honora judicium: With thy Decrees honour our judgement. Likewise the Fathers of other counsels, required their constitutions to be strengthened by confirmation of the Pope's authority.  
And sir, find you fault with the Pope, because he hath not yet put in his answer? I pray you, 
‡ The whole world accuseth him.  who accused him? Where, when, and whereof? In what lawful Court? Before what lawful judge? O you say, he hath not yet put in his answer. Be it that Hicke, Hob, and Hans of your sects have impudently accused him. How would ye have him bring in his answer? To what seat of judgement, to what Consistory can ye cite him, that is by Christ appointed 
* A foul Untruth. For Christ never gave the Pope any such Commission.  to be the Supreme judge of all his Church▪ the Shepherd of all his Flo●ke? It is not for him you know, to bring in his answer in Weshminster haul, nor in Star Chamber. Will ye have him appear before your high Commissioners in the long Chapel at Paul's, or in M. Crindalles' chamber thereby, where ye have said and done your pleasure, and deprived many honest men of their benefices? Or will ye rather have him come to Geneva, 
The Spirit of Councils.  to Zurich, to Frankforde, to Strasburg, to Wittenberg, or to some other corner, where ye have your congregations, there to be judged by jacke and Gille? I pity you, poor souls, that ye talk thus so far out of square, and would the Pope to bring in his answer, ye know not where, having neither just Court, or Consistory to call him unto, nor lawful judge, nor law to pass upon him. For through your Schisms and Heresies, as ye have made yourselves Churchelesse, Christlesse, and Godless so also Courtless, judgelesse, and Lawless. I can not compare you better than to the Rebels of Norfolk under Captain Kete, amongst whom Mount Surrey was their London, and an Oak or an Elm commonly called the tree of Reformation, was their Westminster Halle. Such Prince, such Dominion: such judge, such Consistory.  
Ye complain, the Pope hath condemned you without judgement by order pronounced, and before ye were ever called to be judged. This is as true, as that the Murderer or Thief answereth the judge at the bar, saying, not guilty my Lord. Ye have been sundry times called to lawful Consistories, to Synods, to Counsels. Always either ye made not your appearance, or by right of safeconduct conveyed yourselves away, without any show of Obedience: or upon promise of amendment, you were dismissed. How many Legates and Nuncios have sundry Popes sent into Germany and other Provinces, to convent you, to hear you, to move you to a better mind, and call you home, and with all merciful means to gather you again into the lap of the Church? He may say, to your condemnation, 
isaiah. 5.  that was said of the jews: what is that jought to have done to 
* Open Blasphemy: The Church is the Pope's vinyeard.  my vinyeard, which I have not done? But all was in vain, such hath been your stubbornness.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We jest not at God's Holy spirit, M. harding. We know, it is the same Spirit of Wisdom, that hath renewed the face of the world, & discovered the multitude of your follies. But well may we jest at your unhandsome, and open legierdumaine, that so vainly seek to blind us with a painted shadow of the Spirit of God. ye pretend long Prayers, much fasting, great conference of Doctors, and Scriptures, and the undoubted presence, and assistance of God's Holy Spirit in all your doings: & yet openly strive against the manifest Word, and Spirit of God, and follow only your own Spirit, which we may truly call the Spirit of Vanity. The Spirit, that you mean, is nothing else, but the Spirit of Rome: which, you say, is the Spirit of Truth, & cannot err. In one of your late Councils, 
Nicolaus de Clavengijs.  holden in Rome, as ye were singing, Veni Creator Spiritus, God sent down an Owl from the top of the Church, to sit amongst you: that the world might know, in what spirit ye were assembled.  
Elias, 
3. Regum. 18.  the Prophet of God, jested thus at the priests of Baal: Cry out aloud: It is your God. Either he is occupied in some talk: or he is in his Inn: or he is travailing upon the way: or else perhaps he is a sleep. Yet neither was Elias an Hicke Scorner: nor jested he at God's Holy spirit: nor did he any thing, that was unseemly for his person.  
As for your Councils, whether they be all, and evermore summoned by the Spirit of God, or no, it may well be doubted. The University of Parise thus protested, by way of Appeal, 
Appellatio universe. Parisien. Anno. 1517.  against Pope Leo. 10. & his Council: Dominus Leo Papa Decimus, in quodam Coetu in Civitate Romana, nescimus qualiter, non tamen in Spiritu Domini, Congregato: Our Lord Pope Leo 10. in a certain Council, gathered in y● City of Rome, by what mean, we know not: but surely not by the Spirit of God. And touching your Late Chapter, or Conventicle, which ye call the Council of Trent, 
Oratio Synodica, Anno. 1562.  the French kings ambassador, being there in presence, said thus: Minùs legitima, minusúe libera fuisse dicuntur illa Concilia. Qui aderant, ad voluntatem alterius semper loquebantur: The saying is, that these were neither Lawful, nor Free Councils. The Bishops, that were there, spoke (not always of the Spirit of God, but) evermore to please some other: By which, Other, he meant the Pope.  
Christ saith unto Peter, 
Confirmation of councils  I have prayed for thee: and Paul went up to Jerusalem, to visit Peter: Ergo, ye say, The Pope hath Authority to confirm Councils. O M. harding, your Logic of Louvain is marvelous hasty. ye force your Conclusions, 
Luc. 22. Galat. 2.  to run in post. For what maketh, either Christ's prayer for Peter, or Paul's journey from Arabia to Jerusalem, for the Confirmation of Councils? Verily, here is no manner mention, neither of Confirmation, nor of Council, nor of Pope.  
Whereas Christ prayed namely for Peter, S. Augustine saith, as he hath been alleged before, 
August. De quae. Novi Testamen. quaest. 75.  Nunquid pro Petro rogabat: pro jacobo, & johann non rogabat? Did Christ pray only for Peter: and did he not pray for james, and john?  
Again he saith, 
Augu. De Verb. Domi. In evang. Secundum Lucan, Sermo. 36.  Hac nocte postulavit Satanas vexare vos, sicut triticum: Sed ego rogavi Patrem pro vobis, ne deficiat Fides vestra: This might hath Satan desired to threashe you, as if ye were wheat. But I have prayed to my Father (not only for Peter, but) for you, that your Faith may not fail.  
touching that Paul went up to Jerusalem, of Courtesy, to see Peter, he sought not thereby the allowance of his Doctrine, as a man, 
Galat. 2.  that otherwise stood in doubt, whether he had so long, for the space of fourtiene years preached Truth, or falsehood: but rather found fault with peter's dissimulation in Doctrine, & reproved him openly even unto the face. S. Jerome saith, Perrexit Jerusalem, non tam ut disceret aliquid ab Apostolis, 
Hieronym. in Epist. ad Gal. ca 1.  quàm cum eis evangelium, quod docuerat, collaturus: Paul went up to Jerusalem, not so much to learn any thing of the Apostles, as to confer with them touching the Gospel, that he had preached.  
S. Chrysostom saith further, Paulus nihil opus habebat Petro: nec illius egebat voce: 
Chrysost add Galat. Cap 1.  sed honore par erat illi: Nihil enim hîc dicam amplius: Paul had no need of Peter: nor had any cause to crave his voice: but in honour, and worthiness, was his equal: As for more, I will not say.  
Concerning the Confirmation of Councils, we have said otherwhere more at large. Councils were Confirmed, 
In the Former Reply, Artic. 4. Division. 26.  not only by the Bishop of Rome, but also by other Bishops, and patriarchs: and not only by other Bishops, but also by Kings, and Emperors. The Emperor Martianus saith, Sacro nostrae Serenitatis edicto venerandam Synodum Confirmamus: By the Holy edict of our Majesty we Confirm this Reverend Council. 
Concil. Chalced. Actio. 3.  Likewise the Bishops in the Council of Constantinople, besought the Emperor Theodosius, Rogamus Clementiam tuam, 
Concil. Constantinopolitan. 5.  ut per Literas tuae Pietatis ratum esse iubeas, Confirmesque Concilij Decretum: We beseech your favour, that by your majesties Letters, ye will ratify, and Confirm the Decree of the Council.  
touching the Council of the Apostles at Jerusalem, your own doctor saith, 
Heruaeus de potestat. Pp. Ca 14.  Postquàm Petrus dixisset, jacobus, Authoritate Pontificali▪ protulit Definitivam Sententiam: When Peter had said his mind, james, by his Episcopal Authority, pronounced the Definitive Sentence: that is to say, gave his Confirmation to the whole.  
To conclude, Councils have been allowed, and holden for good, whether the Bishop of Rome would, or no. Liberatus saith, When Anatolius, by consent of the Council of Chalcedon, 
Liberat. Cap. 13.  had obtained the Primacy, & the Bishop of Rome's Legates stood against it, their gainesaieinge of the judges, and Bishops there was not received. And notwithstanding the apostolic See of Rome even hitherto stand against it, yet the Decree of the Council, by the Authority, and maintenance of the Emperor, 
Quodammodò.  after a sort, standeth still in force.  
Much pleasant sport ye make us, with putting in the Popes answer. Be it, say you, that Hicke, Hob, and Hans have accused the Pope. Would ye have him appear in this Court, or in that, to be judged by jacke, and Gil? The whole world, M. harding, hath of long time charged the Pope with Ambition, 
To judge the Pope.  Bribery, Simony, Superstition, Idolatry, and open Corruption of the ordinances, and will of God. If he disdain the judgement of so many, and call the whole world Hicke, and Hob, let him not marvel, if the whole world disdain him. If he may be both judge, and Party, and may make answer only before himself, I doubt not, but he shall have a good favourable hearing.  
I beseech the, 
part. 5. Cap. 6. Divi. 7.  good Christian Reader, for shortness sake, consider that I have written before, touching the Accusinge, and judging of the Pope. There shalt thou see, 
Ennodius. 9 Q. 3. Nemo.  as Ennodius saith, That the Pope together with the Power of Teaching, hath received free liberty to do ill, without controlment. Therefore he saith, Neque ab Augusto, neque ab omni Clero, neque à Regibus, neque a Populo judex iudicabitur: The Pope, that is the judge, shallbe judged, neither by the Emperor, nor by the whole clergy, nor by Kings, nor by the People. Such a Prerogative, saith Athanasius, 
Athanasi. contra Arianos Oration. 1.  was sommetime claimed by the Ariane Heretics: Cùm ipsi sint rei, ac judicio obnoxij, 
Chryso. in Matthae. Homil. 85.  veluti Caiaphas, judicandi munus invadunt: Whereas they themselves be guilty, and in danger of judgement, they play the part of Caiphas, and take upon them to be judges themselves. In like manner Chrysostom sathe, Figura ibi duntaxat judicij erat: re autem ipsa erat Latronum impetus: There was only a face of judgement: but in deed it was a biunte or violence of thieves.  
Ye say further, 
isaiah. 5.  The Pope may say, to our condemnation, that God saith unto the jews: what is it, that I ought to have done to my vinsyarde, but I have done it? And thus ye give the Pope power, to calling the Church of God, to be his own. Even so Nero that wicked Tyrant, when he had wasted, and consumed the City of Rome, and burnt it with here, he called the same nevertheless by his own name, Neronopolis, Nero's town. 
Heruaeus de potestat. Papae.  One of your Doctoures saith, Huius Communitatis non est Dominus, nisi Christus, vel Papa: There is no Lord of this common slate, (that is to say, of the Church) but either Christ, or the Pope: As if Christ, and the Pope were jointepourchasers.  
But in deed Christ only is the Prince of Pastors. 
1. Pet. 5. August. de verb. Domi. in evang. Secundum johan. Sermo. 50. isaiah. 5.  And the Church is his only Spouse, and not the Pope's S. Augustine saith unto Christ, Tu Petro non dixisti, Place Oues tuas: sed, Pasce Oues meas: Thou saidst not unto Peter, Feed thy Sheep: but, Feed mine. Peter belongeth unto the Church: but the Church belongeth not unto Peter.  
The Church is not the Pope's Vine: It is the Vine of the Lord of Sabaoth. It shall be sufficient for the Pope, if he may be only a branch in this Vine: if he be not withered: if he be not cut of, and thrown into the fiere.  
S. Augustine saith, 
Augu. in johan. Tracta. 323.  Qui hoc animo pascunt Oues Christi, ut Suas velint esse, non Christi, se convincuntur amare, non Christum: vel gloriandi, vel dominandi, vel acquirendi cupiditate: They, that feed the Sheep of Christ, to that end, that they would have them to be their Sheep, and not Christ's, are found to love themselves, and not Christ, for desire, either of Glory, or of Government, or of Gain.    

The Apology, Cap. 4. Division. 2.  
How say ye, do we devise these tales? Is not this the very course of the Councils in these days? Are not all things removed from the whole holy Council, and brought before the Pope alone: that as though nothing had been done to purpose by the indgementes, and consents of such a number, he alone may add, altar, diminish, disanulle, allow, remit, & qualify, what so ever he list? Whose words be these then? And why have the Bishops, & abbots in the last Council at trident but of late concluded thus in th'end, saving always the Authority of the See apostolic in all things? Or why doth Pope Paschale write so proudly of himself? 
De Election. & Electi pote. Significasti.  As though, saith he, there were any General Council able to prescribe a Law to the Church of Rome: whereas all Councils both have been made, and have received their force, and strength by the Authority of the Church of Rome: and in ordinances made by Counsels, is ever plainly excepted the Authority of the Roman Bishop. If they will have these things allowed for good, why be Councils called? But if they command them to be void, why are they left in their Books, as things allowable?  

M. harding.  
Sir, what need you bestow so much talk in vain? Is 〈◊〉 not reason the 
* Who made all the Faithful of Christ, the Pope's Members?  members acknowledge the head? Would you the members to work their actions without the head? Is Pope Paschalis to be called proud for preferring the Church of Rome before a Council? Have not Counsels ever been thought to lack their full Authority, 
‡ Untruth plain, and manifest. For the Pope had no Authority to call councils: As it shall appear.  which were not called and confirmed by the Bishop of Rome?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Modesty, and Sobriety of Pope Paschalis claim shall better appear in the next Division. Verily the Church of Rome, these many years, may seem to have been nothing else, but a Mother of Falsehood, & a School of Pride. Pope Nicolas saith, 
Nicola. Pp. 1. Ad Imp. Michael●. Concil. Lateran. Sub Leone 10. Sessione. 10.  De Sedis Apostolicae judicio nemini licet judicare: It is lawful for noman to judge of the Pope's judgement. And of late years, Pope Leo said, Papa habet Authoritatem super omnia Concilia: The Pope hath Authority over all Councils. That all lawful Councils have evermore been summoned, and confirmed by the Pope, it is a mavifest, and gross untruth: as hereafter it shallbe opened more at large.  
Where ye say, It is reason, the Members should acknowledge their Head, For shame, M. harding, and for your credits sake, once leave these vanities. If the Pope be any part of God's Church, he is a Member, and not the Head: and the Faithful of the Church of God, are Christ's Members, and not the Popes.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 1.  
But be it so: Let the Bishop of Rome alone be above all Councils, that is to say, let some one part be greater than the whole: let him be of greater Power, let him be of more Wisdom, than all his: and, 
Hieron. ad Euagrium.  in spite of Hieromes head, let the Authority of one City be greater, than the Authority of the whole world.  

M. harding.  
It is a common manner of this Defender, what he must needs grant, to make a show in words, as though it were free gift. So many times beggars will seem gentlemen, and paiers of debt will seem givers. Let the Bishop of Rome, (saith he) alone be above all counsels. 
‡ Untruth. Otherwise show us, by what Authority he is so.  Sir, he is so: no thake to you. Yet speak you like a liberal gentleman: That is to say, let some one part be greater than the whole. No sir, 
The Pope above General councils.  maugre your scoffing head, part shall not be greater than the whole, but part shall be greater than part. 
* Full wisely. As if the Pope were the Head, & the whole Church were his Body: Or, As if the Pope were the Master, & the Church his Family.  In a right sense is not the head greater than the body, the Bishop then his cleregy, the * master of a house more than his family? Neither is the Council the whole pardy, except your merry wit can devise us a whole body without a head. Let him be of greater power, say you. And so he is. Let him be of more wisdom, than all his. We say not so. It may be, that his Council hath more learning, 
‡ The Council hath more Wisdom, and Learning, than the Pope: yet the Pope is in Wisdom, and Learning above the Council.  more knowledge and more wisdom, than his only person. Albeit, when we speak of that wisdom of the See apostolic, which is sure, infallible, and cannot err: we mean not only the Pope's singular person, but the head pastor and Bishop, as he doth those things, which pertain to that chair: that is to say, in asmuch as he proceedeth not upon his own private judgement, 
* O fond folly. For so any simple creature, so long as he is lead by the Holy Ghost, can never err.  but by the instinct of the Holy Ghost, promised by Christ to his vicar. Where you say, And in spite of Hieromes head, let the Authority of one City be greater them the Authority of the whole world: we tell you, that this you speak more spitefully, then learnedly. For S. Jerome in his epistle to Euagrius speaketh 
‡ Untruth, vain, and childish. For S. Jerome speaketh plainly of Authority: Si Authoritas quaeritur, Maior est Orbis Vrbe.  only of a particular matter, blaming the custom of Rome, where contrary to the custom of the whole world, deacons in certain cases were preferred before Priests, whereof we have spoken before.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Sir defender, ye say, speaketh like a Liberal Gentleman. Again ye say, No sir, Maugre your scoffing head. These, and other like words, M. harding, are sitting, and seemly for your person, and may well become your merry wit.  
Where we say, Let the Bishop of Rome be of greater power, than any General Council, ye answer us readily, And so he is: Where we say, Let him be of more Wisdom, than all other Bishops, ye answer again, We say not so: As if ye would allow the Pope Authority, and Power without Wisdom. Yet wise men have said, that Power without Wisdom is the kingdom of Folly.  
some of your friends have said, Si Totus Mundus sententiaret in aliquo negotio contra Papam, videtur, quoed standum esset Sententiae Papae: If the whole world should give sentence in any matter against the Pope, it seemeth, we ought rather to stand to the Pope's judgement, then to the judgement of all the world. Albertus Pigghi us saith, Certius est judicium Papae, quàm judicium Generalis concilij, aut Totius Orbis terrarum: The judgement of the Pope is more certain, then is the judgement of a General Council, or else of all the whole world. another saith, Papa virtualiter est Tota Ecclesia: The Pope by Power is the whole Universal Church. An other saith, 
9 quaest. 3. Nemo. In Gloss.  Potestas solius Papae excedit Potestatem residuae Ecclesiae: The Pope's only Power exceedeth the Power of all the Church beside. 
Alb Piggh. Eccl. Hiera. li. 6. ca 13. Heruae. De potesta. Pp. Cap. 23. Petr. De Palude, de potestat. Pp. Artic. 4.  another saith, Papa non potest subijcere se Concilio Generali: The Pope cannot submit himself to a General Council. Upon these worthy foundations ye have built up the Pope's Infinite, and Universal Power: And therefore ye say, Sir Defender would seem, to grant you of free gift, that he must needs grant perforce, whether he will or no.  
All this not withstanding, M. harding, others of your more indifferent Doctoures, would have told you an other tale. S. bernard saith, Quae maior superbia esse potest, 
Extra. De judicijs. Cùm venissent. johan. Andr. Berna. Citatur à Pico Mirand. In quae. An Papa sit supra Concil. Picus Mirandul. eodem loco.  quàm ut unus homo toti Congregationi judicium suum praeferat, tanquàm Solus habeat Spiritum Sanctum? What greater pride can there be, than that One man should esteem his own judgement more, than the judgement of all the Church, as if he only had the Spirit of God? Whereunto picus Mirandula addeth these words, Imò Simplici potiùs Rustico, & Infanti, & Aniculae magis, quàm Pontifici Maximo, & mill Episcopis credendum est, si isti contra evangelium, illi pro evangelio faciant: Nay, we ought to believe a Simple plain Husbandman, or a Child, or an Old Wooman, rather than the Pope, and a thousand Bishops, if the Pope, and the Bishops speak against the Gospel, and the others speak with the Gospel.  
The Bishops in the Council of Ferraria say thus, Quacunque facultate Romana Ecclesia praedita sit, universali tamen Ecclesiae, quam Generalis Synodus prae se fert, inferior est: With what so ever power the Church of Rome be endued, yet is it inferior to the Universal Church, 
Conc. Ferrarion. Session 10.  that is represented by the General Council.  
The Bishops in the Council of Basile say thus, 
Concil. Basilien. Inter Epistolas Synodales.  Etsi Papa sit Caput Ministeriale Ecclesiae, non tamen est maior tota Ecclesia. Alioqui errant Pontifice, quod saepè contingit, & contingere potest, tota erraret Ecclesia: Although the Pope be the Ministerial head of the Church, yet is he not greater, than all the Church. Otherwise, when so ever the Pope erreth, which thing happeneth oftentimes, and may well happen, the whole Church should likewise err.  
Again they say, 
In appendice Conc. Basilien. Sacrosanctae Generali.  Nonnulli os suum ponenies in Coelum, Potestatem Romani Pontificis supra Potestatem Sacrorum Generalium Conciliorum, contra juris Divini, & Humani Veritatem, à Sanctis Patribus aliâs declaratam, exaltare nituntur: Many men setting their face against the Heaven, go about to exalt the power of the Bishop of Rome above the Power of Holy General Councils, contrary to the Truth of the Law, both of God, and man, declared unto us by the Holy Fathers.  
Again they say, 
In eadem appendice, Et Primò.  Ecclesia Romana non est universa, sed est de Vniversirate Corporis Mystici, id est, Ecclesiae: Et sic est Membrum dicti Corporis Mystici, ut pater per Beatum Gregorium. Igitur ex quo est Membrum dicti Corporis, non est, nec esse potest Caput illius: Cùm differentia sit inter Caput, & Membra: The Church of Rome is not Universal, but a part of the Universal Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church: and so is it a Member of Christ's said Body Mystical, as it appeareth by S. Gregory. Therefore, for as much as it is a Member of the said Body, it is not, neither can it be the Head of the same Body. For there is a difference between the Head, and the Body.  
Likewise again they say, 
In eadem appendice, Eod. capite.  Alicant, Papam impunè posse tollere Constitutionem Concilij Generalis, contra prohibitionem ipsius Concilij Generalis: supponentes, Papam else Pastorem universalis Ecclesiae. Sed ipsorum suppositum est falsum: & consequenter ipsorum assertio super eo fundata est falsa: They say, The Pope may safely abolish the Decree of a General Council, notwithstanding the same General Council have decreed the contrary: 
The Pope is not pastor of the Vntuersal Church.  supposing, that the Pope is the Bishop of the Universal Church. But their supposal is false: and so consequently false is their Doctrine, that they have built thereupon.  
Therefore, M. harding, this part of your Book, among the rest, would more advisedly have been considered. D. Cole himself, notwithstanding otherwise well inclined unto your faction, yet in this point is well content to give you over. 
D. Cole.  Thus he saith of himself: I hold herein rather with Gerson, that the Council is above the Pope.  
The Pope, ye say, in one respect, as he is a Man, in his own singular person, may happen to err: But in an other respect, as he is Head pastor, and Chief Bishop, and is placed in Peter's Chair, he cannot err. And thus, as the Heathens, in old times, imagined their Centaurus to be half a Man, and half a Horse: or their janus to have two faces, the one behind, and the other before: even so have you imagined two Popes in one body: the one going backward, the other forward: the one bearing Light, the other Darkness: the one deceived, the other not deceived: the One speaking Truth, the other falsehood: and yet both these Popes incorporate together in one Person. give us leave therefore, M. harding, to say now, as the whole University of Parise said, 
Appellatio Vniver. Parisien. à Leon. 10. An. 1517.  not long sithence, unto Pope Leo, A Domino nostro Papa, iam non bene consulto, appellamus: We appeal from our Lord the Pope, being, as now, not well advised.  
Certainly, 
Hierony. ad Heliodorum, De laud vitae Solitariae.  S. Jerome saith, Non est facile, stare in loco Pauli, tenere gradum Petri, iam cum Christo regnantium: ne fortè veniat Angelus, qui scindat Velum Templi tui, qui Candelabrum tuum de loco moveat: It is no easy matter, to stand in Peter, or Paul's place now reigning with Christ: lest the Angel come, and rent a sunder: he vele of thy Temple, and remove they Candesticke from his place.  
The place of S. Jerome to Euagrius, 
part. 2. Ca 3. Divisi. 5.  is answered before.    

The Apology, Cap. 5. Division. 2.  
How then, if the Pope have seen none of these things, and have never read, either the Scriptures, or the Old Fathers, or yet his own Councils? How if he favour the Arians, as once Pope Liberius did? Or have a wicked, and a detestable opinion of the life to come, and of the immortality of the Soul, as Pope john had but few years sithence? Or, to increase his own Dignity, do now corrupt other councils, as Pope Zosimus corrupted the council holden at Nice in times passed: and do say, that those things were devised and appointed by the Holy Fathers, which never once came into their thought: and, to have the full sway of Authority, do wrest the Scriptures, which thing, as camotensis saith, is an usual custom with the Popes? How if he have renounced the Faith of christ, & become an Apostata, as Lyranus saith many Popes have been? And yet, for all this, shall the Holy Ghost with turning of a hand, knock at his breast, and even whether he will, or no, yea, and wholly against his will, kindle him a light, so as he may not err? Shall he straight way be the Headespring of all Right, and shall all the treasures of Wisdom, & Understanding be found in him, as it were laid up in store? Or, if these things be not in him, can he give a right, and apt judgement of so weighty matters? Or, if he be not able to judge, would he have, that those matters should be brought before him alone?  

M. harding.  
To your how ifs, and what ifs I could soon make an answer by the contrary 
* What then? Should he therefore be above General Councils?  And Sir, how if the Pope have seen all these things, the Scriptures, Fathers, and Counsels? What have you then to say? Is not your tale then at an end? Were your matter good, and yourself wise, you would nor so commonly use that weak kirde of reasoning. But to a number of your how ifs, and what ifs, for the reader's sake, to put away all scruple, I give you this answer.  
God's wisdom (as the Scripture saith) disposeth all things sweetly, 
Sadly, and sagely, and much to the purpose.  and in one instant foreseeth the end, 
Sapien. 8.  and means that be necessary to the end. If he promise any man life everlasting, withal he giveth him grace also to do good deeds, 
Rom. 8.  whereby to obtain the same. Whom he hath glorified (saith S. Paul) them he hath justified and called. So whereas he hath by force of his prayer made to the Father, promised to Peter, 
Matt. 16. Luc. 22.  and for the safety of the Church, 
* Untruth, fond, and childish: For Christ prayed no more for Peter, than for others: nor ever made mention of Peter's Successors.  to every Peter's Successor, that his faith shall not fail, and therefore hath willed him to confirm his brethren, that is, to remove all doubts and errors from them: we are assured, he will give him such wit, diligence, learning, and understanding, as this firmness, and infallibility of faith, and confirming of brethren requireth. Shall we stand in doubt whether that happeneth in things supernatural, which we see to be in things natural, that who giveth the end, he giveth also things, that pertain to the atteininge of the end? If God would promise us abundance of corn for the next year to come, 
O worthy, & grave reasons.  what were more foolish, then to doubt, and say like to this Defender, how if, and what if men will not till the ground, nor so we any seed? doubtless if they so we, they shall reepe if they sow not, neither shall they reepe. But what? We may gather of the promise of God, that we shall have not only fair and ceasonable wether, whereby the fruits of the earth may prove plentiful, but also that the husbandmen shall employ their endeavour, pains, and labour. For the abundance of corn so promised shall not be given but to such, as till, so we, and truail Even so whereas Christ hath promised to the 
* Untruth. For Christ never entered into such covenant with Peter's Successors.  Successors of Peter, firmness of Faith, to the Apostles and their Successors the spirit of Truth, and likewise to Counsels gathered in his name: we must persuade ourselves, that nothing shall want necessary for the controversies, touching faith, to be decided.  
That you say of Liberius the Pope, is stark f●lse 
‡ Untruth, plainly reproved by S. Jerome.  He never favoured the Arians. The most ye can find against him, is, that he was compelled by the great persecution of Constantius the Emperor, to subscribe to the Arians. Neither is that by the Ancient writers of the Ecclesiastical stories constantly affirmed but of the chief of them not spoken of, where most occasion was, to signify it, if it had so been: of some denied, of some mentioned not as true, but as a false rumour bruited abroad of him. 
Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 15. Lib. de viris illustrib. in Chronicis.  By which rumour it seemeth 
* S Hieromes Authority refused, as a man writing rashly, he knew not what.  S. Jerome was deceived, remaining in the east, far from the places where the Truth might more certainly be known. But were it true, that he subscribed, as Peter denied Christ. yet being done 
‡ The Pope denieth Christ, for lack of Charity, but not for lack of Faith.  for lack of Charity, and not by error in faith, well might that fact be slanderous to the Church, but it was not a decree made in favour of the Arians, neither to confirm that heresy.  
That you report of Pope john the 22. is likewise most false. The worst that Marsilius of Padua, and William Ockam Heretics wrote of him to flatter the Emperor Lidovicus of Bavaria, is, that he had taught openly 
* Untruth manifest See the Answer.  (which also is referred to the time before he was Pope) 
‡ Untruth. For he held also, that the Souls of the wicked should not be pounisshed before the judgement.  that the souls of the just see not God until the day of judgement. That he had a wicked, and a detestable opinion of the immortality of the soul, there was no such his opinion, but it is your false slander, by which your wicked and detestable malice imagined to deface the Church, and specially the Authority of the holy See apostolic. No story of any estimation mentioneth, that he was of that first opinion, after he came to be Pope, much less that he gave any definitive sentence of such matter. But contrariwise, 
* Untruth, contrary to that M harding said immediately before. For than he held this error in the time of his Popedom.  when as he prepared himself to go to the definition of that question, concerning the seeing of God, which just souls have before the day of judgement, as Benedictus theleventh in sua extravagant saith, he was prevented by death, so as he might not do it.  
You belt Zosimus: 
‡ Untruth manifestly reproved by the Council of Aphrica.  be corrupted not the Council of Nice: But signified to the Bishops of afric assembled in Council at Carthage, the Truth concerning the Canons of the Nicene Council. The same may be proved by julius the first, by the Epistle of 
* These be very vain, and childish forgeries.  Athinasius, and other Bishops of Egypt, Thebats, and Libya, written to Marcus the Pope of the Original of thee, 72. Canons of the Nicene Council, that remained in safe custody in the Church of Rome, subscribed with the hands of the Fathers, that at the same Council were present And what credit was to be given to the contrary information of only twenty Canons, that was returned from the Bishops of Constantinople and Alexandria 
‡ Untruth, without any savour of wit, or learning. Why should M. harding allege to foolish Fables?  when Hereikes before had burned the Books, where the whole number was contained, and left but those twenty, that all Books now commonly have?  
If we should allege Camotensis, and Lyre, you would call them the black guard, and set little by them. First she we us where they have that you allege out of them. M juel allegeth that of Canotensis in an other place. But where it is, he keepeth it to himself, and of himself it is likely it proceeded. For his dealing is such, as any false practice in respect of him, may seem credible. Albeit what worshipful Doctor ye mean by Camotensis 
* If ye know him not, then may you best blame your Ignorance.  I know not: Peradventure ye mean Carnotensis, otherwise called Ivo I have cause to guess, that so it should be. And yet four Books of sundry Prints both English, and Latin so have. If there be any such, as I suppose there is not, he is very obscure, nor worth the naming.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here ye say, And Sir, How if the Pope have seen all these things, the Scriptures, the Fathers. the Councils? 
Whether the Pope may err, or no.  What have you then to say? Is not your tale then at an end? No verily, M. harding. I would further desire God, to give him grace, to use them well, and to his Glory. notwithstanding your own Doctoures will soon put all these your whattes, and whatifs, out of question. For, concerning the Pope's great, and high Learning, 
Alphons. contra Haeres. li. 1. ca 4.  Alphonsus de Castro saith, as he hath been alleged before, Constat, plures Papas adeò illiteratos fuisse, ut Grammaticam penitùs ignorarent: It is certainly known, that sundry Popes have been so unskilful in learning, that they never understood their Grammare. But, Christ hath prayed for Peter, and made sure promise, that his Faith should never fail. Therefore the Pope is wise: the Pope is learned: the Pope is Catholic: the Pope cannot err. All this, and a great deal more, the Pope may claim only by Virtue of Christ's prayer. Now therefore, if the Pope should err, or be in Heresy, he might sue Christ in an Action of covenant, & require him to perform his Promise. 
Michae 3.  So saith the Prophet Michaeas, Sacerdotes in mercede docebant, & Prophetae in pecunia divinabant: & super Dominum requieseebant, dicentes, Nun est Dominus in medio nostrum? The Priests taught the people for heir: and the Prophets Prophesied for moonie: and yet they rested themselves upon God's Promise, saying, And is not the Lord in the mids amongst us? 
Psalm. 118. Hierem. 17.  But the Prophet saith, Every man is a liar: Accursed is he, that trusteth in Man. Your own Doctor Alphonsus saith, Omnis homo errare potest in Fide, etiamsi Papa sit: Every man may err in Faith: yea, although he be the Pope.  
How be it, 
Concil. Tomo. 1. Tertull. Contra Praxeam.  that your Unlearned Reader may the better consider, how safely he may give credit to your bare word, whether the Pope may be deceived in Faith, or no, it may easily appear by these few Examples. Who so listeth to seek, may find more. pope Marcellinus offered up incense, & made Sacrifice unto devils. 
Beat. Rhenanus. Hieron. in praefatione de Viris illustribus.  Tertullian saith, Episcopum Romanum agnoscentem iam Prophetias Montani, Priscae, Maximillae, etc. The Bishop of Rome, well liking now the Prophecies (or Heresies) of Montanus, Prisca, and Maximilla, etc. Upon which words Beatus Rhenanus noteth thus, Episcopus Romanus Montanizat: The Bishop of Rome favoureth the Heresy of Montanus. Pope Liberius was an Arian Heretic: 
Concil. Nicenum 2. Action. 7.  as hereafter it shall better appear. Pope Honorius was condemned for an Heretic in two General Councils. 
Concil. Constantinop. 6. Acti. 13. Alphons li. 1. ca 4 In Legenda Hilarij.  In the Council of Constantinople the words of his condemnation be alleged thus: 
Synod. Romana. in Fasciculo rerum sciendarum impresso Coloniae. 1553.  Anathematizari curavimus Honorium, qui fuerat Papa Antiquae Romae: quia in omnibus mentem Sergij secutus est, & impia dogmata confirmavit: We have caused Honorius, that late Pope of old Rome, to be accursed: for that in all things he followed the mind of Sergius the Heretic, and confirmed his wicked Doctrine. Alphonsus de Castro saith, Anastasium Papam favisse Nestorianis, qui Historias legerit, non dubitat: Who so ever hath read the stories, or course of time, cannot doubt, but Pope Anastasius favoured thee Nestorian Heretics. In the very legend of Hilarius it is mentioned, that Pope Leo was an Arian Heretic. In a Synod holden at Rome against Pope Hildebrande, it is written thus, Incendio tradidimus Decreta eorum Heretica: We have burnt their Heretical Decrees. 
johannes Stella Venetus.  Pope Sylvester. 2. was made Pope by Necromancy, and in recompense thereof, 
Episto. Hulderici ad Nicolaum Papam.  promised himself both Body, & Soul unto the Devil. Huldericus y● Bishop of Augusta in Germany, expresseth the restraint of Priests Marriage by these words, Periculosum huius Haeresis Decretum: The dangerous Decree of this Heresy. Notwithstanding I have seen the same Epistle unto P. Nicolas, 
Erasm. in Annotation. in Epist. ad Galat. Cap. 2. In faciem illi restiti.  together with an other Epistle to like purpose, written in old Veleme of very Ancient Record, under the name of Volusianus the Bishop of Carthage? But what need we to touch all the particulares? The Doctoures of the Great School of Sorbona in Parise, have determined in their Articles, that S. Peter himself erred in the Faith. The Council of Basile condemneth Pope Eugenius by these words: Eugenium contemptorem Sacrorum Canonum: 
Concil. Basilien. Sessione. 34.  Pacis, & Veritatis Ecclesiae Dei perturbatorem notorium: universalis Ecclesiae Scandalizatorem: Simoniacum: Periurum: Incorrigibilem: Schismaticum: à Fide devium: Pertinacem Haereticum, etc. We condemn, and depose Pope Eugenius, a despiser of the Holy Canons: a disturber of the Peace, and Unity of the Church of God: a notorious offendor of the whole Universal Church: a Simoniste: a Foresworn man: a man Vncorrigible: a schismatic: a man fallen from the Faith: and a wilful Heretic. Of Pope john's Heresy, touching the Immortality of the Soul, 
24. Q. 3. Haeresis. In Conc. Constantien. in Appendice, Ca In primis. Quinimò idem johan. Pp. 22. dixit, et pertinaciter credidit, animam hominis cum Corpore humano mori, & extingui, ad instar animalium brutorum.  we shall speak more hereafter. S. Jerome saith, Qui Scripturam intelligit aliter, quàm sensus Spiritus Sancti flagitat, quo scripta est, licet ab Ecclesia non recesserit, tamen Haereticus appellari potest: Who so ever otherwise understandeth the Scriptures, than the sense of the Holy Ghost requireth, by whom they were written, (as, it is most certain, the Pope in infinite places both hath done, and doth) although he be not departed from the Church, yet he may well be called an Heretic.  
Now, if Idolaters, montanists, Arians, Monothelites, Nestorians, Deniers of the Immortality, Simonistes, Sorcerers, Maineteiners of Filthiness, & other Obstinate, and Wilful Heretics may err, then, what so ever M. harding, & his Fellows shall say to the contrary, it is easily seen, that the Pope may err.  
Verily the Council of Basile saith thus, Multi è Summis Pontificibus in Haereses, & Errores lapsi esse dicuntur, & leguntur: Certum est, Papam Errare posse: Concilium saepè condemnavit, atque deposuit Papam, tam ratione Fidei, quàm Morum: It is reported, and read, that many Popes have fallen into Errors, & Heresies: It is certain, that the Pope may err: The Council hath oftentimes condemned, and removed y● Pope, in respect, as well of his Heresy in Faith, as of his lewdness in life. 
Concil. Basilien. inter Epist. Synodales. visellius. 24. Q. 1. A rectas In Glossa.  Visellus saith, Summorum Pontificum quidam pestilenter erraverunt: Certain of the Bishops of Rome have been in Pestilent Heresies. Your own Gloze saith, Certum est, quòd Papa Errare potest: It is certain, that y● Pope may err. An other of your Doctoures saith, Interdum possit aliquis esse, qui esst à Sede removendus: ut si esset Foemina, vel Hereticus: sicut fuerunt aliqui: & ob hoc non numerantur in Catalogo Paparum: The Pope may sometimes be such a one, as may seem worthy to be removed: 
johan. De Parisijs, de potesiat. Regia & Pap. Heruaeus de potesta. Pp. Cap. 18. Gerson, Anliceat appellare à Pp. Hostien de Concessione Praebendae. Proposuit. Extra. de Electione. Significasti. Abb.  as if he were a Woman, or an Heretic: And certain such there have been: and therefore they be not reckoned in the Calendare of the Popes. An other saith, Aliqui Papae inventi sunt flagitiosi, & Haeretici: Some Popes have been found wicked men, and Heretics. another saith, Et Papa, & Episcopi sunt deviabiles à Fide: Both Popes, and Bishops may wander from the Faith. An other saith, Papa mandans, aliquid fieri, quod sonnet in Haeresim, turbat statum Ecclesiae, & non est ei parendum: The Pope commanding any thing to be done, that soundeth of Heresy, troubleth the state of the Church: and we may not obey him. another saith, Papa potest else Haereticus, & de Haeresi judicari: The Pope may be an Heretic, and of Heresy may be judged.  
All these were the Popes undoubted friends. But now let us hear the Pope himself. Pope Pius. 2. otherwise called Aeneas Silvius, saith thus: Quid si criminosus Papa contraria Fidei praedicet, Haereticisque Dogmatibus imbuat Subditos? What if a notorious wicked Pope teach things contrary to the Faith, and with Heretical Doctrine pervert his Subjects?  
I would not stand so long in so clear a case, were it not, that M. Harding, all this notwithstanding, telleth us so sadly, and biddeth us believe it upon his warrant, that the Pope undoubtedly can never err. Stanislaus Hosius, the greatest stickler of that side, 
Hosius in Confession Petricovion. Cap. 29. Alphons. Contra Haeres. li. 1. ca 4.  blussheth not to say thus, Numerentur omnes, etc. Reckon all the Popes, that ever were, from Peter, until this julius, that now is: There never sat in this Chair any Arian, any Donatiste, any Pelagian, or any other, that professed any manner Heresy. Yet nevertheless, your own Doctor Alphonsus' saith, Non credo, aliquem esse adeò Impudentem Papae Assentatorem, ut ei tribuere hoc velit, ut nec Errare, nec in Interpretatione Sacrarum Literarum hallucinari possit: I believe, their 〈◊〉 so shameless a Flatterer of the Pope, that will grant him this Prerogative, that he can never err, nor be deceived in the expounding of the Scriptures. Here, M. harding, your own principal doctor Alphonsus calleth all them, that maintain your Doctrine, and say, as you say, The shameless Flatterers of the Pope. Certainly, I think, it may safely be said: If a man will take the view of all Christendom, he shall not find so many Heretics in any one See, what so ever, as may be found in the See of Rome. 
Franc. Petrarch. Epist. 20.  And, for the cause, perhaps. Franciscus Petrarcha calleth Rome Asylun Haeresum, & Errorun: The sanctuary of Errors, and Heresies: And in his Italian Sonetres he calleth it, The School of error, and the Temple of Heresy.  
As for Nicolaus Lyra, ye doubt of our dealing, for that the Printer hath not quoted the place. 
Schola di Errori, e Tempio di Eresia.  It may please you therefore to peruse his notes upon the xvi. Chapter of S. Matthew. There among other ye shall find these words: 
Nicol. Lyra in Matthae. Cap. 16.  Ex hoc patet, quoed Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus, ratione Potestatis, vel Dignitatis Ecclesiasticae, vel Saecularis: Quia multi principes, & Summi Pontifices inventi sunt apostatasse à Fide: Hereby it appeareth, that the Church standeth not in men, in consideration, either of their Power, or of their Dignity, either Ecclesiastical, or Temporal. For many Princes, and Popes have been found to have strayed from the Faith. 
Baldus de office praesid. L. Saepe.  Therefore Baldus saith, Cautela est, quoed quis dicat, Credo, quod credit Sancta Mater Ecclesia: non, quod credit Papa: It is to be marked, that a man many say, I believe, that the Church believeth: but not, I believe, that the Pope believeth. ye say, Christ prayed for Peter: Ergo, the Pope cannot err. But where was Christ's Prayer then, when so many Heretics were Popes in Rome? Will ye say, that Christ prayed for Arians, for Nestorians, for montanists, for Monothelites, for Simonistes, for Idolaters, for Necromancers, for Poisoners, for Murderers, & for Dame Johan too? Or, that by the virtue of Christ's Prayer, none of these could ever Err? Or, that the Pope's Errors must go for Truth, or his Heresies be holden as Right Religion, only because you tell us, that, what so ever he say, He cannot Err? O M. harding, I showed you before, y● Christ prayed, not only for Peter, but also for all the rest of his Disciples. Origen saith, as he is before alleged, 
Orig. in Matth. Tractat. 2.  Num audebimus dicere, quoed adversus unum Petrum non praevaliturae sint Porrae Inferorum: adversus coeteros Apostolos praevaliturae sint? Shall we dare to san● that the Gates of Helle shall not prevail against only Peter? and that the same Gates shall prevail against all other the Apostles? 
Cyprian. in Orationem Dominicam.  S. Cyprian saith, Rogabat pro delictis nostris, sicut iple declarat, cùm dicit ad Petrum: Ego Rogavi pro te, ne deficiat Fides tua: Christ prayed (not for Peter only, but) for our sins, as he himself declareth, saying unto Peter, I have prayed for thee, that thy Faith should not fail. S. Augustine, expounding the same words, 
Aug. De Verbis Domi. secund. Lucam Sern. 36 Chryso. in Matthae. Homil. 33.  saith thus: Ego rogavi Patrem pro vobis, ne deficiat Fides vestra: I have prayed (not only for Peter, but also) for you, that your Faith should not fail. Chrysostom saith, Omnis Christianus, qui suscipit Verbum Petri, Thronus fit Petri: & petrus sedet in co: Every Christian man, that receiveth the word of Peter, is made Peter's Chair: and Peter himself sitteth in him.  
Otherwise, M. harding, they are not all peter's, that sit in place of Peter. S. Ambrose saith, 
Ambros. De Poeniten. Li. 1. Ca ●. Hierony. in Sophontam. Cap. 1. Pope Liberius.  Non habent Haereditatem Petri, qui Fidem Petri non habent: They have not Peter's Inheritance, that have not the Faith of Peter.  
S. Jerome saith, Auferet Dominus nomina vanae gloriae, & admirationis falsae, quae versantur in Ecclesia: God will take a way these names of vain Glory, and false ostentation, that are used in the Church.  
Where we say, Pope Liberius favoured the Arians, that, ye say, is stark false. And yet, 
Hieron De Eccl. Scriptorib. In Fortunatiano.  ye know, S. Jerome is the reporter of that falsehood. But S. Jerome, ye say, was deceived. In such Reverence, and Regard ye have the Doctoures, and Learned Fathers of the Church. Ye believe them no further, than ye list. I doubt not, but S. Jerome might better say, M. harding is deceived. Certainly? Alphonsus, your own doctor, saith, De Liberio Papa, Constat fuisse Arianum: touching Pope Liberius, 
Alphons. Contra Haeres. li. 1. ca 4. Platy. in Liberio. Antonin. Par. 2. Tit. 10. ca 4. ● 5. joverius.  it is well known, he was an Arian. Platyna saith, Liberius, ut quidam volunt, in rebus omnibus sensit cum Haereticis: Pope Liberius, as some say, was in all points of one judgement with the (Arian) Heretics.  
Antoninus the archbishop of Florence, saith, Liberius Papa consensit praeceptis Augusti (Ariani) ut unà cum Haereticis Communicaret: Pope Liberius so consented to the Commandments of the Arian Emperor, that he communicated with the Heretics. 
Herman Gigas. Historta Longobardica.  So saith loverius in the Abbriedgement of Councils: So saith Hermannus Gigas: so saith your very legend, commonly called Historia Longobardica. Among others, Erasmus saith, Ariana Haeresis, & Romanum Pontificem involuit, 
Erasm. in Annotationib. in Hieronym. Contra Lucifertan.  & ipsos Imperatores: The Arians Heresi entangled, and wrapped both Pope and Emperor. By the Pope namely he meaneth Liberius. Yet you doubt not to say, S. Jerome was shamefully deceived, and wrote of ignorance, he knew not what.  
Likewise, ye say, That we report of Pope john, is most false. Our report is, 
Pope john.  That Pope john denied the Immortality of the Soul: not thoroughly, and altogether, but only in that he said, Until the time of the last judgement, the Soul lieth still, as in a trance, as doth the body, without sense of joy, or pain. Wherein he, not only withstood the express Word of God, but also unwares quite overthrew his own whole Kingdom of Purgatory, which is the greatest, & fairest of all his three Crowns. For what avail his Pardonnes, & Trentals, if the soul lie still a sleep until the day of judgement, & feel no pain? Verily, after the last judgement, by common consent, there shallbe no Purgatory. Now, if there be no place of Purgatory, neither before, nor after the last judgement, then may we well conclude, that absolutely, & without doubt there is no Purgatory. The first Authors of this error, 
Augustin. Ad Quoduultdeun. Gerson in Sermone Paschali. Copus Dialog. 1. Pag. 50.  as S. Augustine saith, were the Heretics called Arabici. touching Pope john's error, Gerson saith thus, johannes Papa. 22. decrevit, etc. Pope john 22. decreed, that the Souls of the wicked should not be punished, before the day of the last judgement: which error the University of Parise condemned for Heresy, and caused the Pope to recant. One of your own Companions of Louvain saith, Pope john kept this error secretly to himself, and never had the open consent of the Church of Rome. And, for better excuse hereof, he saith, 
Pag. 51.  Petrus, non Fidem Christi, sed Christum, salva Fide, negavit: Peter denied, not the Faith of Christ, but, his Faith saved, he denied no more but Christ. And so, by this pretty shift of your Lovanian Divinity, ye have both Christ without Faith, & also Faith without Christ. Thus, M. harding, it is plain by your own Doctoures, & Fellows, that our report of Pope john is neither a false slander, as you say, 
Pope Zosimus.  nor proceedeth of detestable, and wicked malice.  
For the rest, ye say, we bely Pope Zosimus. He corrupted not the Council of Nice. 
Artic 4. Divi. 6. Concil. Aphric. Can. 101.  For trial whereof, I refer me self to my Former Reply unto your Answer. Certainly, what so ever learned man will stand in denial hereof, he must needs want colour in his face. The fraud was notoriously found, & detected to the whole world by the Ancient Learned Fathers. 
An Epistle forged under thename of Athanasius. The Council of Nice corrupted.  Cyrillus, & Articus, the one being Patriarch of Alexandria, the other of Antioch, and was reproved, and published by two hundred, and seventeen Bishops, openly in the Council of Aphrica. The peevish forged Epistle, that ye allege under the name of the Learned Godly Father Athanasius, The fantastical burning of the Canons of Nice without fire, with other your like childish vanities, scarcely meet for children to play withal, are likewise answered.  
One of your own Lovanian company confesseth, 
In the Reply. Artic. 4. Divi. 6.  that in the late Council of Florence, the Greeks there made open complaint, that the Bishop of Rome had corrupted thee Canons of the Council of Nice. Alypius the Bishop of Tagastan, speaking hereof in the Council of Carthage, saith thus: Adhuc tamen me movet, quoniam cùm inspiceremus Graeca Exemplaria huius Synodi Nicenae, 
Copus Pag. 78. Concil. Florent. Sessione. 20.  ista ibi, nescio, qua ratione, minimè invenimus: Yet this thing moveth me, that when we examined, and conferred the originals of the Nicene Council, written in Greek, I know not, 
Concil. carthaginian. 6. Cap. 4. Epist. Bonifacij 2 ad Eulalium.  by what means, these things we found not there.  
Yet Pope Bonifacius, to save the Credit of the See of Rome, was forced to say, and publish openly, that the said Alypius, and Aurelius the Bishop of Carthage, & S. Augustine the Bishop of Hippo, and two hundred and fourteen other Bishops, that had espied, and revealed this falsehood, were all inflamed, & lead by the Devil. 
Copus, Pag. 93.  And one of your own sudden Doctoures of Louvain saith, Haec omnia, tanquam somnia, tamquam fabulae, tanquam superflua, abolita, antiquata, calcata sunt: All these Decrees (of these Councils, of Carthage, and Aphrica) are abolished, and repealed, and trodden under foot, as Dreams, and Fables, and things superfluous. This, M. harding, is the weighing of your Councils. If they like you, they are the express Voices of the Holy Ghost: If they like you not, they are Dreams, and Fables, and things Superfluous.  
Camotensis, 
johan. Camotensis.  ye say, is some worshipful Doctor, such as by our own judgement, might pass in the Black guard. Yet was he a Bishop, M. Harding, in all respects far better, than either your Leontius, or your Hippolytus, or your new found Clemens, whom ye call the Apostles Fellow, or your vain fable of Amphilochius. ye would seem to find fault with the name: & think, we should not have written, Camotensis, but rather, Ivo Carnotensis. Your guess ye show us: but reason thereof ye show us none. Ye might as well have said, Fulbertus Carnotensis, who being very much consumed, and spent with sickness, as it is learnedly noted among other your Verities, for a restorative, sucked our Lady's breast, and by virtue thereof was made whole. ye might likewise have gheased, it had been Io. Sarisburiensis, 
Hermann. Rid. 10. Sarisburien. in Polycratico. Corne. Agrippa, De vanit. Scientiarum.  otherwise called by some, Rupertus Carnotensis. For he saith, In Ecclesia Romana sedent Scribae, & Pharisaei: In the Church of Rome sit the Scribes, and the Phariseis. But in deed, this Writers name is johannes Camotensis, alleged by Cornelius Agrippa. His words be these: Angelis praecipiunt: potestatem habent in Mortuos: Vim faciunt Scriptures, ut habeant Plenitudinem Potestatis. Ipse Papa iam factus est intolerabilis. Eius pompam, & fastum nullus Tyrannorum unquam ae quavit. Legati Romanorum Pontificum sic bacchantur in Provincijs, acsi ad flagellandam Ecclesiam sathan egressus sit à facie Domini: They say their Commandments upon the Angels of God: They have power upon the Dead: They wrest, and rack the Scriptures, that they may have the Fullness of Power. The Pope himself is now become untolerable. No Tyrant was ever able to match him in Pomp, and Pride. The Pope's Legates keep such revel in Kingdoms, and Countries, as if Satan were sent abroad from the face of the Lord, to scourge the Church. This is not your Ivo Carnotensis: It is johannes Camotensis: And this is his judgement of your Church of Rome.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 1.  
What will ye say, if the Pope's Advocates, Abbates, and Bishops dissemble not the matter, but show themselves open enemies to the Gospel, and, though they see, yet will not see, but wry the Scriptures, and witingly, and knowingly corrupt, and countrefeite the Word of God, and foully, and wickedly apply to the Pope, all the same things, which evidently, and properly be spoken of the person of christ only, nor by no means can be applied to any other? 
Host. cap. Quanto.  And what though they say, The Pope is all, and above all? Or, 
Abbas Panor. de Elect. ca Venerabilis.  That the Pope can do asmuch, as christ can do: and, That one judgement place, and one council House serveth for the Pope, and for christ, both together? Or, That the Pope is the same Light, 
Cornelius Episcopus, in Concil. Tridentino.  which should come into the world: Which words christ spoke of himself alone: and, That, who so is an evil doer, hateth, and flieth from that Light? Or, that all the other Bishops have received of the Pope's Fullness?  

M. harding.  
You have never done with your what ifs. Your interpreter good Gentil woman, that favoureth your pleasant Divinity so much, seemeth to be weary of it. herself. For here she turneth your, Quid si, into what will ye say, if. And now Sir, do you demand of us, as Madame Interpreter maketh you to speak, what we will say. Forsooth, for this you allege against the Pope's advocates, abbots, and Bishops, we say, that the most part is very false, and slanderous: somewhat may be taken for truth in a right sense. As for the advocates, I mind not to be their Advocate, 
Hostiensis. Panormitanus.  neither have they need of my help. Let them answer one for an other: Hostiensis for Abbot Panormitan, and he for Hostiensis. In good sooth were those excellent men at this day living, I think verily, they would not do you that honour, as to answer you themselves. Or if they would vouchsafe to do so much, I doubt not, but they would make short work with you, and take you up roundly for halting, with one word, Mentitis, dasshinge all your allegations. Which word in your Divinity is a verb Commune.  
Thus leaving Hostiensis, and Panormitan to defence of the canonists, telling you by the way that in questions of Divinity we stand not always to their sayings: 
Cornelius Episcopus Bitontinus.  we answer you on the behalf of Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in Italy, (for him ye mean, I suppose, putting in your margin the name of Cornelius only) that he never said, 
* Untruth, blasphemous, unadvisedly defended. For the words be plain, papa Lux venit in Mundum.  the Pope is the Light, which should come into the world, in that sense, as it is spoken of Christ. If you were hardly charged to show, where he said it, or where be wrote it, * you would be found a liar, as in many other points you are found already. That he never wrote it in any of his eloquent Italian Sermons, set forth in Print, I am assured. And more hath he not set forth. Now it remaineth, that you tell us where he saith so, * or else confess your slanderous lie.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Where ye say, M. harding, as, I think, ye have learned of a child, that, Mentiris, is a Verb Common, if ye hold on, as ye have begun, ye will shortly alter the property thereof to yourself, & make it henceforth a verb Private. touching Hostiensis, and Panormitane, I will say nothing, but only refer you to the places.  
As for Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto, for as much as, contrary to your Nature, ye plead ignorance, and say, ye cannot find the place, read therefore these words in his Oration, openly pronounced in your late Chapter at trident: Quis erit tam iniustus rerum aestimator, 
Concil. Trident. sub. Paulo. 3.  qui non dicat, Papa Lux venit in Mundum: sed dilexerunt homines Tenebras magis quam Lucem. Omnis, qui malè agit, 
Oratio Cornelij Episcopi Bitontini.  odit Lucem: & non venit ad Lucem: ut non arguantur opera eius, quia mala sunt: Who will so uniuslely weight things, but he will say, The Pope is the Light, that is come into the world? But men have loved darkness, more than (the Pope, that is) the Light. Who so ever doth evil, hateth the Light: and cometh not to the Light: lest his works should be discoured, for that they be evil.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 2.  
Shortly, what though they make Decrees expressly against God's Word, and that not in hucker mucker, or covertly, but openly, and in the face of the world: must it needs yet be Gospel straight, what so ever they say? Shall these be Gods Holy Army? Or, will Christ be at hand among them there? Shall the Holy Ghost flow in their tongues, or can they with truth say, We, and the Holy Ghost have thought so?  

M. harding.  
After a great meany of your foolish and false what ifs, you conclude shortly, with What if, they make decrees expressly against God's Word, and that openly in the face of the World? Hereto we answer, requiting your what if, with an other what if, and say, What if the Learned and holy Fathers, etc.    

The Apology, Cap. 6. Division. 3.  
In deed Peter Asotus, and his companion Hosius, stick not to affirm, 
Hosius contra Brentium, Lib. 2.  that the same Council, wherein our savour jesus christ was condemned to die, had both the Spirit of Prophesieinge, and the Holy Ghost, and the Spirit of Truth: and, that it was neither a false, nor a trifling saying, when those Bishops said, We have a Law, and by our Law he ought to die: and, that they, so saying, did light upon the very Truth of judgement (for so be Hosius words) and, that the same plainly was a just Decree, whereby they pronounced, that Christ was worthy to die. This, me thinketh, is strange, that these men are not able to speak for themselves, and to defend their own cause, but they must also take part with Annas, & Caiphas. For, if they will call that a lawful, and a good Council, wherein the Son of God was most shamefully condemned to die, what Council will they then allow for false, and naught? And yet (as all their Councils, to say truth, commonly be) necessity compelled them, to pronounce these things of the Council holden by Annas, and Caiphas.  

M. harding.  
Such unhonest toys better become Brentius, that shameless railing Heretic. Now to you, Sir Defender. You bely Hosius, as Brentius of whom you borrowed this, belied the reverent Father Peter ae Soto. Either you have readen the place of Hosius, or you have not. If you have not, then are you to blame, to say so much evil, that you know not. If you have readen the place, then is your fault plain malice, in putting that to Hosius, the contrary whereof you find in the place by yourself alleged by which you lead us, as it were by the hand, to behold and consider your own dishonesty. How just cause you have to reprehend Hosius, for that he wrote against Brentius in defence of Petrus a Soto, touching the Council in which Christ was condemned by Caiphas, it should best appear to him, that would read the whole place, where Hosius treateth that matter. The same would I here have rehearsed, to the discovering of your false dealing, and shameless lying, were not the same very long. 
The Spirit of Truth in Annas, and Caiphas.   
first, this is the Truth, touching the whole 
* A discrete, and a worthy proctor. The Acts were nought, and the sentence good. The Sentence was, That Christ should die the death.  The Acts of those Priests of the jews synagogue were wicked, and contrary to Christ. * But their Sentence, though themselves were never so evil, was not only true, but also to mankind most profitable. And S. john in his Gospel witnesseth, it was the oracle of God. For when after long deliberation of the Council, Caiphas the high Bishop and precedent of that Council, had pronounced his sentence, whereunto all the rest almost gave their consent, 
joan. 19  It is expedient for us, that one man die for the people, and not that all the Nation perish: the evangelist thereto added his verdict, saying, This he said, not of himself, but whereas he was high Bishop of that year, he Prophesied. Therefore let this be the true conclusion of the whole matter. The acts of that council were wicked, the sentence was true and good. Now Hosius treateth this matter so learnedly, and so substantially, as you can not truly take any advantage of his words to reprehend him. He stateth himself upon the Scripture, a good ground to stand upon. Which Scripture referreth doubt full, and hard questions to the Priests of the levitical order. Of whom it is said, Indicabunt tibi judicij Veritatem: 
‡ This Truth of judgement was, That the Son of God was a Blahpsemer, and had deserved to die.  They shall show unto thee the Truth of judgement. In this judgement, saith Hosius, though it were never so wicked, yet was the truth of judgement. How that might be, there he proveth it to Brentius by most manifest arguments.  
Where ye impute to Hosius, to have said, that the same plainly was a just decree, 
* Untruth For thus said Caiphas: And his judgement Hosius defendeth, as true, and godly.  whereby they pronounced that Christ was worthy to die, that is your slanderous lie, not Hosius saying. * For he saith the clean contrary, and that sundry times, that it was a wicked Council, and most unjust decree. God forbid any Christian man should say, that Christ was worthy to die. 
‡ Christ, by Hosius judgement, was guilty of death.  He saith, it might have been truly pronounced by Caiphas, that he was guilty of death. And there he showeth how, very religiously, and wisely admonishing the reader, that he was most innocent, and deserved not to die. And thus, Sir, you may see, we take not part with Annas, and Caiphas, as you rail, and yet be able, God be thanked, to defend our true cause, and declare you to the world to be false teachers. Therefore bely us no more.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Good Christian Reader, this whole matter concerneth only the credit, and certainty of General Councils. Sotus, and Hosius say, what so ever is determined in Council, must be taken, as the undoubted judgement, and Word of God. Hereunto the Godly Learned Father, johannes Brentius, replieth thus, Councils sometimes have erred, and have utterly wanted thee Spirit of God: as it may appear by that in a Council the Son of God was condemned, and judged to die the death. Hosius answereth, When Annas, and Caiphas sat as Presidents in the Council, and Christ the Son of God, was by them condemned to die, yet nevertheless the same Council had the assistance of the Holy Ghost, and the undoubted Spirit of Truth. For, 
Hosius, Li. 2. contra Brentium.  speaking of the same Council, he saith thus, Vides, Brenti, quemadmodum non defuerit Sacerdotio Levitico Spiritus Propheticus, Spiritus Sanctus, Spiritus Veritatis: Ye see, friend Brentius, how that the Levitical Priesthood (that pronounced sentence of death against Christ) wanted not the Spirit of prophesy, the Holy Ghost, 
Pagi. 62. b.  the Spirit of Truth. Again he saith, Ex quo tempore Primus Parens noster de vento ligno gustavit, factus est Mortis Reus Christus Dei, etc. Nec falsum fuit illud, 
Pagi. 63. a.  quod dixerunt, Nos legem habemus, & secundum Legem hanc debet mori: From the tune, that our first Father tasted of the forebidden fruit Christ the Son of God became guilty of death: Neither was it false, that the jews said, We have a Law, and according to that Law he ought to die. With this Spirit, I trow, he was inspired, that wrote this Marginal Note upon your Decrees, judaei mortaliter peccassent, 
Dist. 13. Item. In Margin.  nisi Christum Crucifixissent: The lews had committed mortal sin, if they had not nailed Christ unto the Cross. Again, Hosius saith, 
Hosius contra Brent. Pag. 63. b  Nulla esse potest tanta Pontificum improbitas, quae impedire queat, quo ' minùs vera sit illa Dei Promissio, Qui indicabunt tibi judicij Veritatem: Be the wickedness of Bishops never so great, it can never hinder, but that this promiss of God shall ever be true, The Bishops shall show thee the truth of judgement.  
This therefore, M. harding, is your Doctoures meaning: It is sufficient, that Bishops only meet in Council. God will supply all the rest. What so ever they determine, the Holy Ghost will assist them: they cannot err. All this is as true, as that Hosius your doctor saith, Annas, and Caiphas could not err in pronouncing Sentence of death against Christ.  
But, for excuse hereof, somewhat to salve a festry matter, ye tell us a long tedious tale, without head, or foot: & that your Reader may think, ye say somewhat, ye cry out aloud, Shameless railing Heretics: We bely Hosius: we bely Sotus: Our false dealing: our shameless lying: we are impudent, and continue in lying. These, M. harding, be the proofs, and grounds of your Doctrine, and the most savoury, and fairest Flowers in your garland.  
The substance of your tale is this: The Acts of the Council, where Christ was condemned, were lewd, and wicked: But the Sentence of death pronounced by the Bishops against Christ, was just, and true. And thus by your dalliance in dark words, and by your blind Distinction, between Act, and Sentence, ye seek shifts, to mock the world. ye should plainly have told us, what were these Sentences: and what were these Acts: and what great difference ye can espy between Act, and Sentence: or, when ever ye heard of Sentence in judgement without Act: or, of perfit Act without Sentence: or, how the Sentence of the judge may be true, if the Act be false: or, how the Act may be right, if the Sentence be wrong. For your credits sake, leave these toys, M. harding. Ye have used them over long. They are too childish for a child: they become not your gravity: they deceive the simple.  
In deed, I can easily believe, that neither Sotus, nor Hosius was ever so wicked, to say, that Christ was rightly, and worthily done to death. How be it, he, that saith, The sentence of death, pronounced in Council against Christ, was just, and true, seemeth in deed to say no less. The very case, and course of your Doctrine undoubtedly forced them thus to say. For, if all councils be good, and Holy, without exception, then must that also be a good, and a Holy Council, that was assembled against God, and against his Christ.  
Hosius your Doctors, 
Hosius in Confession Petricovien. Ca 29.  to make the matter plain, saith thus, judásne sit, an Petrus, an Paulus, Deus attendi not vult: Sed solùm hoc, quoed sedet in Cathedra Petri: quoed Apostolus: quoed Christi Legatus: quoed Angelus est Domini exercituum: de cuius ore Legem requirere iussus es. Hoc solùm spectari vult. Si judas est, quandoquidem Apostolus est, nihil te moveat, quoed Fur est: God will never have thee consider, whether the Pope be a judas, or a Peter, or a Paul. It is sufficient, only that he sitteth in Peter's Chair: that he is an Apostle: that he is christes ambassador: that he is the Angel of the Lord of Hosts: from whose mouth thou art commounded to require the Law. This thing only Christ would have thee to consider. Be it judas: for as much as he is an Apostle, let it not move thee, though he be a Thief.  
But Caiphas said, It is good, that one man die for the people, lest all the people perish. Ergo, say you, Caiphas had the Spirit of God. Alas, M. harding, although you little pass for your Divinity, yet why have you no more regard unto your Logic? Every child knoweth, that this is a Paralogismus, or a deceitful kind of reasoning, called Fallacia Accidentis. And, that ye may the better espy your oversight, Like as ye say, Caiphas prophesied blindly, himself not understanding, what he said, Ergo, he had the Holy Ghost:  
Even so may ye say, balaam's Ass reproved his master, and spoke the Truth, as Caiphas did. Ergo, balaam's Ass had the Holy Ghost. S. Paul saith, No man can say, The Lord jesus, but in the Spirit of God. Hereof, by your Logic, ye may reason thus: The Devil said unto Christ, I know, that thou art Christ the Son of the Living God: 
1. Corin. 12.  Ergo, the Devil had the Spirit of God.  
It pitieth me, M. harding, to see your follies. Although Caiphas unwares, and against his will, by the enforcement, & power of God, at one only time spoke words of Truth, as did also balaam's Ass, and the Devil, yet it followeth not, that we should therefore at all times run to Caiphas, to seek the Truth.  
S, Augustine saith, 
August. Epist. 58.  Quando Deus voluit, etiam mutum iumentum rationabiliter locutum est. Nec ideo ' admoniti sunt homines, in deliberationibus suis, etiam Asinina expectare Consilia: When it pleased God, balaam's Ass, being a doum be beast, was able to speak, as a man. Yet are not men therefore commanded, in all their Consultations, and doubtful cases to seek Counsel of an Ass.  
As for the Lies, Shames, and slanders, ye would so liberally lay upon us, it may please you, to take them freely home again. If ye be full freight, and have store sufficient of your own, yet may you divide them among your poor Lovanian Brethren. It shallbe a work of Supererogation. For yewisse, they have of their own enough already. To conclude, your whole drift herein is, to force your Reader, to have a good opinion of Annas, & Caiphas, that condemned Christ, to die the death: for that, as Hosius saith, they had the Spirit of prophesy, the Holy Ghost, and the Spirit of Truth: and therefore could not err in their judgement.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 1.  
But will these men (I say) reform us the Church, being themselves both the persons guilty, & the judges to? Will they abate their own Ambition, and their Pride? Will they overthrow their own causes, & give sentence against themselves, that they must leave of to be unlearned Bishops, Slowbellies, Heapers together of Benefices, takers upon them as Princes, and men of war? Will the Abbates, the Pope's dear darlings judge that Monk for a Thief, which laboureth not for his living: and that it is against all law, to suffer such a one to live, and to be found either in City, or in Country, all of other men's charges? Or else, that a Monk ought to lie on the ground, to live hardly with Herbs, and Peason, to study earnestly, to Argue, to Pray, to Work with hand, and fully to bend himself, to come to the ministery of the Church? In faith, as soon will the Phariseis, & Scribes repair again the Temple of God, and restore it unto us a House of Prayer, in steed of a Den of thieves.  

M. harding.  
Ye leap with a light skip from one thing to an other: neither dwell ye long in any one point, but in lying.  
But ye say, they be both the persons guilty, and the judges also. judges doubtless they be. For their vocation is lawful, ye cannot disprove it. Guilty also they be, we deny not: but whereof? Of frail living, not of false teaching. (for commonly they teach nothing). And where? In the court of conscience, 
‡ Untruth. For their life is notorious to the world.  not in the court of man. Or if any of them be, both before this council, and in this council godly orders have been decreed for wholesome reformation. 
Monks, friars, Nuns.   
As for monks, ye may not look now, that either they get their living only by their hands labour, or that they be bound to the hard discipline, which Monks lived in, for twelve hundred years passed. Now be other days, other manners. Such great austerity is to be wondered at, and to be wished for. But whether the Religious men of our time be to be compelled thereto, I leave it to wise consideration. If it may be lawful to direct us in such spiritual cases, by an old example of extern prudency, me thinketh the discretion of jacob's answer to his Brother Esau is worth to be thought on. When ●sau courteously offered his brother jacob recourninge from Mesopotamia with all his train of household and cattle, to go with him, and keep him company, the rest of the journey that remained from the place of their first meeting: jacob full mildly said, Sir, you know, if it like your Lordship, 
Gene. 33.  that I have here with me tender babes, 
* M. harding likeneth his Monks to droves of cattle.  ewes with lamb, * and Kine with calf. If I overlabour them with fast goeinge, my flocks will die all in a day. May it please your Lordship to go before me your servant: I will follow after the flock fair and soft, so as I shall see my little ones able to bear it.  
Like wise if there be not a discrete moderation used. but all monks be rigorously driven to the ausieritie of life, they lived in of old time, in this so great looseness of manners, specially the discipline of all religions being so far slaked in comparison of the ancient severitte: it is to be feared, we shall rather see Cloisters forsaken (which God grant), than a Godly reformation procured (which will never be).  
In the end of this Paragraphe, ye show yourself to despair of our amendment. God give you grace so to do for your parts, as we may have good cause to hope better of you. But whether we amend our faults, or other wise, what pertaineth that to the ●●stification of your new Gospel, and to the disprove of the Catholic Faith by us defended? You k●●w, it is no good argument à moribus ad doctrinam. Who would not hiss you and tramp you out of schools, if ye made this fond reason: The Papists lives be fauliy, Ergo their teaching is false? To this head all the reasons of your Apology in effect may be reduced: and they hold Per locum topicum novi evangelii à malis moribus. 
‡ Here M. harding compareth the Popes, and his Bishops with the Scr●b●s and Phariseis.  Doth not Christ himself confute all such your feeble reasons, where he sateth. 
Matth. 23.  The Scribes, and Phariseis sit in the chair of Moses: what so ever they say to you, do ye, but after their works do ye not?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
ye say, If your Monks, and friars should now be forced to keep the old Discipline, and severity of their foundations, they would rather break their Closters', and leave all together. And therefore by a fit comparison, ye resemble them to the heavy droves of jacob's cattle. Whereby ye seem secretly to give us to imagine, that the Monks cowl is not always so holy a wo●de, as is pretended.  
S. Jerome, discribinge the life, and order of Monks in his time, saith thus, Nihil arrogant sibi de continentia supercilij. 
Hieronym. ad Marcellam, ut commigret Bethlehem.  Humilitatis inter omnes contentio est. Quicunque novissimus fuerit, hic primus putatur In vest nulla discretio: nulla admiratio. Vicunque placuerit incedere, nec deiractionis est, nec laudis leiunia neminem sublevant: nec defertur inediae: nec moderata saturitas condemnatur. Suo Domino stat unusquisque, aut cadit. Nemo judicat alterum, ne à Domino iudicetur: They brag not of their Sole, or single life. All contention is, who may be most humble. Who so ever is last, he is counted first. There is neither difference, nor woonderinge in Apparel. How so ever it pleaseth a man to go, he is neither slandered for it, nor commended. Noman is evanced for his fasting. Neither is abstinence praised, nor sober refreassinge condemned. Each man either standeth, or falleth to his Lord. Noman judgeth other, least of the Lord he himself be judged.  
But, ye say, your Monks now adays are waxed nice, and crank. Such extreme rigour, and severity they may not bear.  
Such Holy men they were, 
Sulpitius Severus in Chronico.  of whom Sulpitius Severus writeth: Sedentes munera expectant, atque omne vitae decus mercede corruptum habent: dum quasi venalem nalem prae se ferunt sanctimoniam: These friars sit still, and look for money: and have all the beauty of their life corrupted with heir, 
Hieronym. Ad Eustochium de Virginita. servanda.  setting their holiness out to sale. Of such Holy Nuns, S. Jerome telleth us, Post Coenam dubiam Apostolos somniant: After they have well filled their bellies, they dream of the Apostles. In like sort, he writeth of certain Monks: Apud hos affectata sunt omnia: Laxae manicae: Caligae follicantes: Vestis crassior: Crebra suspiria: Visitatio Virginun: Detractio Clericorum. Et, 
In eadem Episto. ad Eustochium.  si quando Dies Festus venerit, saturantur ad vomitum: among these men, all things are countrefeite: Their Wide sleeves: their great Boots: their course Gown: their often sighs: their Visiting of Virgins: their backebitinge of Priests. And, if there come a Holy Day, they eat, until they be feign to parbreak. This, no doubt, is that Holiness, that Christ brought into the world.  
But your life, ye say, is no prejudice to your Faith: How so ever you live, yet is your Doctrine right good, and Catholic. And that ye prove by the words of Christ: 
Matthae. 23.  The Scribes, and Phariseis sit on Moses Chair. What so ever they say to you, do ye: but after their works, do ye not. If this be the best claim, ye can hold by, then suffer us, M. harding, to say to you, as Christ sommetime said to them, whom ye confess to be your Fathers: Woe be unto you, ye scribes, 
In eod. Capite.  and Phariseis, ye Hypocrites. Ye devour, and raven up poor Widows houses, under the colour of long prayer. outwardly ye seem Holy: But within ye are full of Hypocrisy, and wickedness.  
The Valentinian Heretics, in Old times, used in like case to say of themselves: 
Irenaeus. li. 1. ca ●  Quemadmodum aurum, in coeno depositum, non amittit decorem suum, ita dicunt, semeripsos, in quibuscunque materialibus operibus sint, nihil noceri, neque amittere Spiritualem Substantiam: As gold, notwithstanding it be laid in dung, yet nevertheless keepeth his beauty still, So they say of themselves, in what so ever corruptible works they live, yet are they never the worse: nor can they lose the Spiritual Substance of their Faith. 
August. De morib. Manichae. li. 2. ca 19 & 20.  S. Augustine saith unto the Old Heretics, called the Manichees: Dicitis, non oportere omninò quaeri quales sunt homines, qui vestram Sectam profitentur: sed qualis sit ipsa Professio. Quid vobis fallacius, quid infidiosius, quid malitiosius dici, aut inveniti potest? Ye say, we may not examine, what men they be, that profess your Sect: but only, what is their Profession. What thing can there be found more false, more deceitful, more maliceous, than you are?    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 2.  
There have been, I know, certain of their own companions, which have found fault with many errors in the Church, as Pope Adrian, Aeneas Silvius, Cardinal Poole, Pighius, and others, as is afore said: they held afterwards their Council at Trident, in the self same place, where it is now appointed. There assembled many Bishops, and Abbates, and others, whom it behoved, for that matter. They were alone by themselves: what so ever they did, no body gainsaid it: for they had quite shut out, and barred our side from all manner of Assemblies: & there they sat six years, feeding folks with a maruilous expectation of their doings. The first six Months, as though it were greatly needful, they made many Determinations of the Holy Trinity, of the Father, of the Son, & of the Holy Ghost: which were godly things in deed, but not so necessary for that time. Let us see, in all that while, of so many, so manifest, so often confessed by them, & so evident Errors, what one error have they amended? 
The Freedom of the Council of Trident.  From what kind of Idolatry have they reclaimed the people? What Superstition have they taken away? What piece of their Tyranny, and Pomp have they diminshed? As though all the world may not now see, that this is a Conspiracy, and not a Council: and that these Bishops, whom the Pope hath now called together, be wholly sworn, and become bound, to bear him their faithful allegiance, and will do no manner of thing, but that they perceive pleaseth him, & helpeth to advance his Power, & as he will have it: Or, that they reckon not of the number of men's voices, rather than of the weight, and value of the same: Or, that Might, there doth not oftentimes overcome Right.  

M. harding.  
As you proceed, you talk your pleasure of the godly and learned Fathers assembled in the late Council of Trent. By the way, as your manner is, your drop lies. Of which, one is, that they had quite shut out, and barred your side from all manner of assemblies: 
* Untruth manifest, as hereafter at shall appear.  which is a foul lie. That the first six months, they occupied themselves with making many determinations of the holy Trinity, that also is an other lie. For then the world had no need of any new determinations or decrees, concerning the Trinity: what it shall have hereafter by occasion of your chief Master john 
‡ A slanderous Untruth. For M. Caluine was ever an enemy unto the Arians.  calvin's Doctrine, it is more feared, then yet perceived.  
Where ye would feign see of so many, so manifest, so often confessed by themselves, and so evident errors, what one error they have amended: they are not like to satisfy your longing. And yet they have taken order for the amendment 
* Untruth most impudent. For their own confessed, and known Errors they never once touched.  of so many, as they know. Neither is any of the same about any point of our faith, but about things of less weight. Your exaggeration of the terms so many, so manifest, so often confessed by them, and so evident, reporteth in one sentence your so many, so manifest, so often confuted by us, and so evident lies. When you follow your hot humour, and ask, from what kind of Idolatry the Fathers of the Tridentine Council have reclaimed the people, you go to far. What so ever blasphemy ye utter in books and Sermons against the adoration of the blessed Sacrament of the Altar, we know no kind of Idolatry used in the Church. 
‡ Untruth, Confessed by M. Harding'S own fellows. Read the Answer.  Neither is any Idolatry committed by us in worshipping of Saints, in praying to them, nor in the reverence we exhibit to their Images, as ye bear the people in hand. 
* O profound Divinity.  As I can not w●l take a hear from your lying beard, so wish I, that I could pluck malice from your blasphemous heart.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Whether the Learned men of our side were shut te out from the right, and liberty of your Council, 
part. 1. Diut. 19 part 6. ca 8. Divi. 1. Cicero, In verrem actione. 1. In Council Triden. Anno. 1562.  or no, it may soon appear, partly by that is already said: partly by that shallbe said hereafter. Verily, the Pope, for his Praemunire, will not suffer any Bishop, to give voice in Council, on less he have him first solemnly sworn to the See of Rome: and therefore they be all called his Creatures. So Cicero saith, Verres, when he had bribed, and spoiled the whole Ilelande of Sicilia, thought it not good, to suffer his name, or any part of his doings to come in hazard, but only before a judge, or Arbiter of his own.  
Therefore, the French kings ambassador, as it is said before, protested thus openly even in your said Council, Minùs legitima, minusque libera dicuntur fuisse illa Concilia: qui aderant, ad voluntatem alterius semper loquebantur: These Councils are counted neither so free, nor so lawful, as they ought to be: they that were there, spoke evermore to please an other: (by which Other, he meant the the Pope). And for that cause, the Emperors Majesty, by his ambassador Hurtadus Mendoza solemnly protested against the assembly of the same Council. His words he these: Ego jacobus Hurtadus Mendoza, vomine Pientissimi, & Inuictissimi Domini mei, Caroli Caesaris Romani Imperatoris, ex illius speciali mandato, ac nomine totius Sacri Romani Imperij, aliorumque Regnorum, ac Dominiorum suorum protestor, 
Anno. 1547. Citatur ab Illyrico in Protestatione contra Concil. Triden.  Nullam posse esse Authoritatem assetorum legatorum Sanctitatis Vestrae, & corum Episcoporum, qui sunt Bononiae, Sanctitati vestrae maiori ex part obnoxiorum, atque ab illius nutu omninò pendentium, ut in Religionis, & morum Reformationis causa, etc. legem praescribant: I lamas Hurtado Mendoza, in the name of the most godly, and most mighty Prince my Lord Charles, the Roman Emperor, by his special Commission, and in the name of y● whole Roman empire, and all others his Realms, and Dominions do protest, that the Authority of the pretenced Legates of your holiness, and of such other Bishops, as be now at Bononia, (unto which town the Council of Trident was then adjourned) for the most part bound unto your Holiness, and wholly hanging upon your beck, is of no force, namely to make Laws in cause of Reformation of Religion, and manners.  
And, 
Paralipomen● Vrspergen. Aeneas Silvius ad Capitulum Moguntinum. johan. Sleidanus Anno. 1523. li. 4. Hoc enim esse colligare manus Pontificis.  that it may appear, in what obedience, & servile subjection, all Bishops be unto the Pope, Aeneas Silvius, otherwise called Pope Pius the second, saith thus, Quo'd si Episcopus Papae contradicat etiam vera loquendo, nihilominus peccat contra Iufiorandum Papae praestitum: If a Bishop speak against the Pope, yea, although he speak the truth, yet nevertheless he sinneth against the Oath, that he hath made unto the Pope. Therefore, where as at the late Conference at Norenberg, it was required by the Princes, and States of Germany, that all bishops coming to the Council, might both be discharged from their Oath made to the Pope, and also sworn to speak, and to promote the Truth, the Pope's Legate there made answer in great disdain, that it might not so be: For that so the Pope's hands should be bound. Hereby, M. harding, a blind man may easily see the form, and Freedom of your Councils. If the Bishops be Free to say the Truth, then is the Pope left in Bondage.  
Whether your Fathers, in the Chapter at trident, sat there six whole moons, debating, and reasoning about the Trinity, or no, of certain knowledge, I cannot tell. But certainly, what thing else they did, either in all that time, 
Cassander in Consultatione de Communione subutraque specie: In Praefatione: Anno 1562.  or long after, you can hardly show us. Therefore, if they did not this, for as much, as nothing else appeareth of their doings, we must imagine, they sat mute in a Muminerie, and said nothing. notwithstanding, Cassander saith, they bestowed one whole Summer in great, and holy Disputations about meaner matters, than the Trinity: I mean, only about the Communion of the Cup. Martinus Kemnitius saith, They held Disputations there, and kept great stir Seven whole moons together, about the justification of Faith & Works: 
Marti. Remmitius in Examine Council Triden. pag. 638.  & yet in the end left it worse, than they found it. We say, You yourselves have espied many disorders in your church of Rome, as it is plain by your own Confessions. To reckon them all in particular, it were too long. I have partly touched them heretofore. Albertus Pigghius confesseth, there be Abuses in your Mass: 
Alber. Pigghi. In controver De Missa Privata. In Concil. Tridenti. An. 1562.  The French King's Ambassador, at your lay Tridentine Chapter, saith thus, Vel Praefectorum Ecclesiae incuria, vel etiam (ne quid gravius dicam) praepostera Pietate, irrepsisse in Ecclesiam res nonnullas Antiquatione, Abrogatione, vel Moderatione dignas, fateamur necesse est: We must needs confess, that either by the negligence of the Bishops, or by some disordered opinion of Holiness (for I will say no more: he meaneth falsehood, 
Picus Miran. Ad Leonem Pp. 10. In Concil. Lateran.  and Mockery, and Wiltal Avarice) certain things are brought into the Church, worthy either to be put away, and abolished, or at least, to be qualified.  
Picus Mirandula besought Pope Leo. 10. to abate the vain Multitude of your Ceremonies: to reform your Prayers: and to cut of your Fables:  
One of your own Lovanian fellows saith, 
Copus Dialo. 1. pag 115.  Even now a days, many good men mislike so many Appeals to Rome: 
Idolatry in the Church of Rome.  Some others find fault with your pardons: some with your Simony: some with your stews: some with your licenceous keeping, and maintaining of Concubines.  
I will not enlarge the matter further. These, and other like things are confessed by yourselves. Other greater matters I will not touch. For in cases of Faith, for your credits sake, ye may grant no manner error. For, otherwise it might be thought, ye have neither the Faith, nor the Life of Christian men.  
Now therefore tell us, M. harding, what one Abuse of all the Abuses in your Mass: what one Disorder, or Deformity, of so many Disorders, and Deformities in your Church: What one vain Ceremony: What one Childish Fable: What Appeal to Rome: What Simony: What Pardonne: What Stews: What Courteghianes: What Concubines have ye reformed? If ye redress not those gross, and sensible Abuses, that ye see with your eyes: how then will ye redress other more secret matters, that pertain only to Faith, and be not seen? If ye will not reform your open stews, when will ye reform the Church of God? But ye are bold to assure us, that there is no kind of Idolatry, nor ever was any in your whole Church of Rome. Notwithstanding, some others of your best Learned Friends have thought otherwise, as it shall appear.  
first, 
Epiphani. li. 3. In Oratione, De Fide catholica. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Epiphanius saith of certain Persians, named Magusaei, Idola quidem detestantur: tamen Idolis cultum exhibent: They abhor the sight of Idols: yet they fall down, and worship Idols. Again, he reporteth certain words of S. Paul, as uttered of him by the Spirit of prophesy, Erunt Mortuis Cultum Divinum praestantes, quemadmodum etiam. in Israel impiè coluerunt: They shall give godly honour unto dead men, like as also they did in Israel.  
What opinion ye have had of Saints departed, I need not here to remember. Cardinal Bembus, in an Epistle unto the Emperor Charles. 5. calleth the Blessed Virgin, 
Epiphani. contra Collyridian. Bembus in Epis. ad Carolum 5. Lipomanus. Pag in 289.  Dominam Deam nostram: Our Lady and Goddess. your great Hercules, Lipomanus, crieth out in his marginal agony, Ecce quàm potentissima est sancta Dei Genitrix: & quomodò nullus saluus fieri possit nisi per eam: Behold, how mighty is the holy Mother of God, and how noman may be saved, but by her.  
It seemeth, this error began to springe long sithence, even in the time of the Old Fathers: and that hereof Faustus, the Heretic, took occasion thus to charge thee Catholics for the same. 
August. Contra Faustum. li. 20. cap 21.  Idola vertistis in Martyrs: Ye have changed the Heathen Idols into your Martyrs. Further, ye say, the Reverence, that ye give unto Saints Images, is no Idolatry. Yet Polydorus Vergilius, speaking hereof, saith thus: Quia Sacerdotes populum non docent, & vulgo ex usu suo tacere putantur, 
Polydor. Virgil. De Inuentoribus rerum. li. 6. cap. 13.  idcirco ' eo ' insaniae deventum est, ut haec pars Pietatis parùm differat ab Impietare: For that the Priests iustructe not the people, and are thought to hold their peace for gains sake, the matter is brought to such a dotage, that this part of Devotion differeth but little from Extreme Wickedness. And Ludovicus vives saith, he seeth no great difference between many Christian men worshipping their Images, 
Ludo. vives, in li. De Civita. Dei Catharinus in Libello de Imaginibus.  & an Heathen man adouring his Idols. Catharinus, one of your great Doctors of trident, saith thus: An licet Adorare Imagines ipsas, & illis cultum praebere? Sunt qui hoc omnino ' negent, & clament, esse Idololatriam. Videntur autem non futilibus Argumentis moveri: nec absque Maiorum, imo ' etiam Scripturarum Authoritate: Whether is it lawful to Worship the very Images, or no? Some men say, nay: and call it Idolatry. And they seem to be moved with no light Arguments, nor without the Authority, as well of the Fathers, as of the Scriptures.  
jacobus Nanclantus saith, 
jacob. Nanclantus. in Epist. ad Roma. cap. 1.  Non solùm fatendum est, Fideles in Ecclesia Adorare coram Imagine, sed & Adorare Imaginem, fine quo volveris scrupulo: quin & ●o illam venerari cultu, quo & prototypon eius. Propter quod, si illud habet Adorari Latria, & illa habet Adorari Latria: We must grant, that the Faithful people in the church, do not only worship before the Image, but also worship the Image itself: and that without any manner scruple of Conscience, whatsoever. And further, They worship the Image with the self same honour, wherewith they worship the thing itself, that is represented by the Image. As if the thing itself be worshipped with godly honour, then must the Image itself likewise be worshipped with godly honour. Hereto agreeth one other of your late Writers, jacobus Payva. 
jacob. Payva. li. 9 Fortalitium Fidei. Rob. Holcote. In librum Sapien. Lectione. 158.  And an other of your like Doctors saith, This is the very use, and practise of your Church of rome. But, Robertus Holcote saith, This kind of worshipping, is plain Idolatry. Ye will say, Ye know the Image is no God. And this, ye think, is excuse sufficient. But so likewise said the Heathens of their Idols: & yet, as S. Augustine saith, they were Idolaters notwithstanding.  
Ye will say, 
Augu. De Verb. Domi. Secundum Matt. Sermo 6. Augustin. Ad Quodvult deum. Paul. Venet. li. 3. Cap. 27.  It is the Image of an Apostle of Christ, or of God himself: and therefore it can be no Idolatry. But S. Augustine saith, Marcellina colebat Imaginem jesu, & Pauli, & Homeri, & Pythagorae, Adorando, Incensumque ponendo: Marcellina worshipped the Image of jesus, and of Paul, and of Homer, and of Pythagoras, by kneeling unto them, and burning Incense before them. Yet nevertheless she was an Idolater. The Saracenes this date, make their Sacrifices in Mount Mecha, not to Devils, or Heathen Gods: But to Abraham, and Isaac, and S. Thomas: yet ace they not therefore excused of Idolatry. 
Gregor. Nyssen. In Orat. funebri de Placilla.  Gregorius the Bishop of Nyssa, S. Basiles Brother, saith thus: Qui Creaturam Adorat, etsi in Nomine Christi id faciat, tamen Simulachrorum Cultor est, Christi Nomen Simulachro imponens: He that worshipper a Creature, notwithstanding he do it in the Name of Christ, yet is he a worshipper of Images, as giving the name of Christ unto an Image. By these few, M. Harding, it may soon appear, that your Churches are not void of all Idolatry.    

The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 3.  
And therefore we know, that divers times many good men, and Catholic Bishops did tarry at home, & would not come, when such Councils were called, wherein men so apparently laboured to serve factions, & to take parts, because they knew, they should but lose their travail, and do no good, seeing whereunto their enemies minds were so wholly bent. Athanasius denied to come, when he was called by the Emperor to his Council at Caesaria, perceiving plainly he should but come among his enemies, which deadly hated him. The same Athanasius, when he came afterward to the Council at Syrmium, and foresaw what would be the end, by reason of the outrage, and malice of his enemies, he packed up his carriage, and went away immediately. john Chrysostom, although the Emperor Constantius, 
Histor. Tripari. lib. 10. cap. 13. Euseb. li 1. ca 17.  commanded him by four sundry letters, to come to the Arians Council, yet kept he himself at home still. When Maximus, the Bishop of Jerusalem, sat in the Council of Palestine, the Old Father Paphnutius took him by the hand, and led him out at the doors, saying: It is not lawful for us, to confer of these matters with wicked men. The Bishops of the east would not come to the Syrmian Council, after they knew, Athanasius had gotten himself thence again. Cyril called men back by letters from the Council of them, which were named Patropassians. Paulinus, Bishop of Trier, and many others more, refused to come to the council at Milan, when they understood, what a stir, and rule Auxentius kept there: for they saw, it was in vain to go thither, where not reason, but faction should prevail: and where folk contended, not for the Truth, and right judgement of the matter, but for Partiality, and Favour.  
And, all be it those Fathers had such maliceous and stiff necked enemies, yet if they had come, they should have had free speech at least in the councils.  

M. harding.  
First, 
And why not as well, as M. Hard. may call the whole Church the Pope's vinyeard? pag. 283. b. Or, all the Bishops through the world the Pope's Sheep? Pag. 308. b.  here I note the falsehood of the Lady enterpreter, who turneth the Latin speaking of Athanasius. Cùm vocatus esset ab Imperatore ad Concilium Caesariense: When he was called by the Emperor to his Council at Caesarca. Where by adding the word his, of her own, she or a worse shrew under her name, goeth about to persuade, as Heretics do, that the Counsels be to be accounted the Counsels of Temporal Princes, not of Bishops: and that they be the heads of them, not the Bishop of Rome. This much to her. Now Sir to you Defender. All these examples serve you to no purpose. It is not denied you, but that in cases, men may refuse to come to Counsels. Your examples declare, that Catholic Bishops shunned to come unto the unlawful Counsels of Heretics. But ye holding strange opinions, condemned by the Church, deny to come to the lawful Counsels of Catholic Bishops. When ye have proved us to be Heretics, I mean the Fathers of the late Council, then may ye justly allege the example of Athanasius, Chrysostom, Maximus, Paphnutius, Cyril, Paulinu, and such other, for not coming to the Council.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Had you not had a shrewd sharp wit, M. harding, and a very good liking of the same, ye could never have made yourself so great sport of so small a matter. The Lady Interpreter pitieth your case, and wisheth you a little more discretion: and would be much ashamed to answer your follies.  
If the Council, we speak of, were not the Emperors Council, then much less was it the Pope's Council. For in those days, as hereafter it shallbe declared more at large, Councils were summoned by Emperors, & not by Popes. And what reason have you to show us, that the Council, being summoned by the Emperor, might not be called thee Emperor Council, as well, as the Pope, being admitted, & allowed by y● Emperor, might be called thee Emperors Priest? Odoacer, 
In Concil. Romano. 3. sub Symmacho. pp.  in the third Council of Rome, in the time of Pope Symmachus, said thus: Miramur, praetermissis nobis, quicquam fuisse tentatum: Cùm etiam Sacerdote nostro superstite, nihil sine nobis debuisset affumi: We marvel, that any thing was attempted without our knowledge: for as much as, Our Priest (he meaneth the Pope) being alive, nothing may be done without us. 
Liberat. cap. 11.  Liberatus saith, Flavianus Episcopus Eutychem ad Concilium Suum venire praecepit: Flavianus the Bishop (not of Rome, but of Antioch) Commanded Eutyches to come to his Council. Hereafter, M. Harding, ye may take time, to study for some better quarrel. Surely this was very simple.  
Ye excuse Athanasius, Chrysostomus, Maximus, Paphnutius, Hilarius, Cyrillus, Paulinus, & other Learned Bishops, & holy Fathers, for not appearing at General Counsels: for that they were summoned to appear before Heretics. As for the Fathers of your late Tridentine Chapter, what so ever they were, ye must in any wise call them Catholics. Yet notwithstanding, ye may remember, that by such good Catholics, as you be, the same holy Fathers, Athanasius, Chrysostomus. Maximus, 
Hilarius contra Arianos, & Auxentium.  Paphnutius. Hilarius, Cyrillus, Paulinus, & others were called Heretics. Hilarius saith: Congreger nunc Auxentius, quas volet in me Synodos, & Haereticum me, ut saepe iam fecit, publico titulo proscribat: Now let Auxentius, the Arian Heretic, call what Councils he list against me: and by open Proclamations let him publish me for an Heretic, 
Theod. li. 2. ca 3.  as he hath oftentimes done already. The Arian Heretics said, that the Catholic Christians, whom they called Homousians, which in their meaning was as much, as Heretics, were the cause of all division.  
S. Jerome saith unto Marcus, 
Hieronym. Ad Marcum Presbyterum Celedensem.  Haereticus sum: quid ad te? Quiesce: iam dictum est: I am an Heretic: What is that to thee? Hold your peace: ye have told your tale. By like right, Christ himself, by certain your ancient Fathers, was called a Samaritane, a Deceiver of the people, and an Heretic. And, if it may please you soberly, & advisedly to consider the matter, ye shall find throughout the whole Body of the Scriptures, that no people made ever so great cracks of the Church, as they, that were the deadly Enemies of the Church: nor none were so ready to condenue others of Heresy, as they, that in deed were themselves the greatest Heretics.    

The Apology, Cap. 8. Division. 1.  
But now, sithence none of us may be suffered so much as to sit, or once to be seen in these men's meetings, much less suffered to speak freely our mind: and seeing the Pope's Legates, patriarchs, archbishops, Bishops, and Abbates, all being conspired together, all linked together in one kind of fault, & all bound by one oath, sit alone by themselves, and have power alone to give their consent: and at last, when they have all done, as though they had done nothing, bring all their opinions to be judged at the will, and pleasure of the Pope, being but one man, to th'end he may pronounce his own sentence of himself, who ought rather to have answered to his complaint: sithence also the same Ancient, and christian Liberty, which of all right should specially be in christian councils, is now utterly taken away from the council: for these causes, I say, wise and good men ought not to marvel at this day, though we do the like now, that, they see, was done in times passed in like case, of so many Fathers, & Catholic Bishops: which is, though we choose rather to sit at home, and leave our whole cause to God, then to journey thither, where as we neither can have place, nor be able to do any good: where as we can obtain no audience: where as Prince's Ambassadors be but used as mocking stocks: & where as also all we be condemned already before trial: as though the matter were a forehand dispatched, and agreed upon.  

M. harding.  
If I wish, ye would take my counsel in good part, and listen unto it, 
* A sage piece of Counsel, and meet for a Doctor of Divinity.  as it standeth you upon, I would advise you to call in all the books of your Apology, and that with no less diligence, than ye went about to suppress the Books of my answer to M. jewels challenge, at their first coming abroad. That done, to cast bruits abroad, that the Apology was made and counterfeited by some crafty Papist, to bring you quite out of credit with all the world. So might ye perhaps in time recover some part of your lost estimation. For whiles your Books be in men's hands, they shallbe an evident witness to all the world, of your shameless lying.  
The Book of the Canons, and Decrees of the Council, hath been printed almost in all parts of Christendom. Look who list, in every Book he shall find three several solemn Safeconductes, granted by the Council, and confirmed by the three Popes, under whom the same was celebrated. Which Safeconductes contain first in most ample wise full Liberty, Power, Authority, and assurance for all and singular persons of all Germany, of what degree, state, condition, or quality so ever they be, that would come to that ecumenical and general Council, to confer, propound, and treat with all freedom, of all things to be treated there, and to the same Council freely, and safely to come, there to tarry and abide, and to offer and put up articles, so many as they thought good, as well in writing, as by word, and with the Fathers, and others thereto chosen, to confer, and without any reproaches, or upbraidings to dispute, also at their pleasure safely again from thence to depart.   

An extension to other Nations.  
The same holy Council in the holy Ghost lawfully assembled, the same Legates de latere of the See apostolic, being precedent in it, to all and singular others, which have not communion with us in those matters, that be of Faith, of what so ever Kingdoms, Nations, Provinces, Cities, and Places, in which openly, and without punishment, is preached, or taught, or believed the contrary of that, which the holy Roman Church holdeth, giveth Faith public or safeconduct, under the same form, and the same words, with which it is given to the Germans.  
This being most true, as the better part of the world seeth, and the Books, and public instruments extant do witness, your excuse of your refusal to come to the Council, as Bishops of other Christian Realms did, is found false. 
* A full discrete kind of Mockery. They offer men liberty to come, and speak: but reserve the whole judgement to themselves.  Ye had all free liberty and security, granted unto you for that behalf, in so ample and large manner, as man's wit could device.  
The second cause why ye came not, is, for that the Pope's Legates, patriarchs, archbishops. Bishops, and Abbots, all being conspired together, all linked together in one kind of fault, and all bound in one Oath, sit alone by themselves, and have power alone to give their consent. What is here that should let you to join with others for procuring unity, and peace in Christendom? Complain ye of the Father's concord and agreeing together? 
‡ They agree together against God, and his Christ.  That is a sign, the spirit of God, author of charity and unity, governeth their hearts. In that respect, they seem to come together in the holy Ghost. And in deed, had ye gone thither, your heresies had been confuted, yourselves required to yield, and to conform you to the Catholic church or else ye had been anathematized, accursed, and condemned.  
Your third cause is, for that the determinations, and decrees of the Council, be referred to the Pope. To that we have answered before. The Pope confirmeth all, being head over the Council. 
* But who made your Pope a King? And when will he give his Real Consent against himself?  Doth not the Queen so pardy confirm your acts of Parliament, by giving her Royal assent unto them at the end of the Parliament? What thing can be done perfectly by a body without the head? And who might better confirm Counsels, than he, whose Faith in pronouncing sentence, rightly and duly, 
Luke. ●2.  in matters concerning Faith, we are assured by Christ's prayer, to be infallible?  
Your fourth cause is, for as much as the Ancient, and Christian liberty, which of right should specially be in Christian Counsels, is now utterly taken away. This cause is not different from your first.  
Your fifth cause is a false lie, that Prince's Ambassadors be used, but as mocking stocks. 
‡ They are allowed a place: but touching judgement, they may say nothing.  Truth it is, they have most honourable seats in all Counsels. In this Council they sat by the Legates. Every Ambassador hath his place there according to the degree of honour, the kingdoms, common weals, states, and Princes be of, from whence, and from whom he cometh.  
The sixth, and last cause ye allege for your not coming to the Council is, for that ye be condemned already before trial, as though the matter were aforehand dispatched and agreed upon. In deed 
* Untruth, without any colour of honest shame.  your heresies for the more part be and have been condemned about a thousand years past. And therefore they are not now to be called unto a new trial, as though the Church until this day, had been deceived, and so many Fathers overseen. This notwithstanding, may ye well say, touching that point, your matter is afore hand dispatched, and agreed upon. For they know, what ye can say, and see, that ye say nothing, but only stand wilfully and stubbornly in your false opinions, and fleshly pleasures.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We never suppressed any of your Books, M. harding, as you know: 
The Popes safeconduct.  but are very well contented, to see them so common, that as now, children may play with them in the Streets. Your manifest Untruths: your Simple Conclusions: your often Contrarieties to yourself: your New found authors: your Childish Fables: your Uncourteous Speeches: your racking, Corrupting, & Misceportinge of the Doctors therein couteined, have much bewrayed the miserable feebleness of your cause. Your Fellows have no cause, greatly to glory in such helps: no more then in other your like Pamflettes, unmeet of any wise man to be answered. This was your only, and special policy, in the time of your late Kingdom. Ye suppressed, and called in, & burned all our writings, what so ever, yea, the very Testament, & Gospel of Christ, truly translated into English, naming them Heretical, and Unlawful Books. And, if any man had concealed, and kept unto himself for his comfort, any such Book written by any of our side, by most terrible, & bloody Proclamations, ye made it Felony. So much ye despaired, and doubted your own follies.  
As for the Books of our Apology, they have been spread so far, & printed so often, in Latin, in Italian, in French, in Duitche, in English, that, as now, it were hard to suppress them. touching the shameless lying, wherewith ye charge us. we are well content to stand to the judgement of the wise. Certainly, it shameth us much, to see so little shame in your writings.  
Ye say, The Pope gave out his safeconduct to all the Princes, and Free Cities, and to the whole people of Germany, to come to the Council, to propound, to dispute at their pleasure, and, when they should think it good, freely, and safely to return, with a large Extension to other Nations, as ye say, to like purpose.  
But first, M. harding, what safety can there be in his safeconduct, that is not able to save himself? Pope Eugenius the fourth, 
Concil. Basilien. Session. 3. & 4.  if he had come to the Council of Basile, as you know, had been quite deposed from his Popedom, all his Saveconductes notwithstanding. Pope john 22. gave out as sure a safeconduct for the Council of Constance, as Pope Pius could devise any for your late Chapter of trident. Yet notwithstanding all his Safety, 
Concil. Constan. Session. 2. 3. 4.  being himself present in the Council, he was pulled out of Peter's Chair, and deprived of his Dignity, and strippeth out of his Pontificalibus, and turned home again in his Minoribus, and allowed only to be a Cardinal, and no longer to be a Pope. Ye may remember, Cicero saith, Qui multorum Custodem se profiteatur, eum sapientes sui primùm capitis aiunt Custodem esse oportere: 
Cicero. Philip. 12  Wise men say, Who so will take upon him to save others, ought first to save himself.  
And what credit may we give to your Saveconductes? 
Illyricus in Protest. contra Concil. Tridentin. pag. 77.  jacobus Nachiantes. the Bishop of Chioca, for that he had simpred out one half word of truth to the misliking of the Legates, was feign to run to Rome, to creep to the Pope's feet, and to crave Pardonne. Ye shamefully betrayed, & cruelly murdered john hus, & Hieronymus Pragensis in your Council of Constance. Neither the Protection of the Emperor, nor the Popes safeconduct was able to save them. No, yourselves have already ruled the case in your said Council. For thus ye say, Fides non est servanda Hereticis: Ye may hold no Faith unto them, that ye call Heretics. Such is the Safety, 
Concil. Constan. Session. 19  and Liberty of your Councils.  
Ye say, Our Learned Men were allowed to Propound, to Talk, to Dispute. What should this avail? For ye reserved the Determination, and whole judgement to yourselves: and yourselves are sworn to submit yours whole judgement to the Pope, 
The Agreement of the Tridentine Fathers.  and without his judgement to judge nothing. And how may this seem a Free Council, were the guilty party shallbe the judge?  
Ye say, There is an Extension granted to other Nations. All this is true in deed. But this same Truth discrieth your open Mockery. For if ye had seen the Instrument, in the end thereof ye should have found your said Extension restrained only to them, 
Io. Fabritius in Recusatione Concil. Triden. johan Sleidanus li. 23. Anno 1552.  that would Repent, and recant the Truth of God, which you call error.  
How be it, not long sithence, the Bishops of your said Chapter at trident were very loath to allow any tolerable Savecondite at all, either to the Germans, or to any others.  
But ye say, if we had come to your Chapter, we had been Confounded. No doubts, with your Fiery Arguments. For such proofs must help you, when others fail.  
As for the gay stuff, that your Tridentine Fathers, after their Nature Deliberation, as they call it, and more than twenty years study, have sent us out lately into the world, it is too simple to mock Children.  
We find no fault with you, M. harding, for that your Bishops, and Abbates agree together: but for that they agree together, as did Herode, and Pilate, 
Matt. 22. &. 26.  the saducee, and Phariseis against Christ.  
Neither may you well vaunt yourselves of your great agreements. Ye may remember, that two of the Principal Pillars of your Chapter, 
Petrus à Soto. Catharinus.  Petrus à Soto, and Catharinus, dissented even there openly, and shamefully, and that in great points of Religion: and wrote, the one mightily against the other: the one charging the other with error, and Heresy, and could never be reconciled.  
notwithstanding, against other points of God's Truth, both they, and the rest joined stoutly together. S. Augustine saith, 
August. In Psal. 36. Concione. 2.  Tunc inter se concordant, quando in perniciem justi conspirant. Non quia se amant, sed quia eum, qui amandus erat, simul oderunt: Then they agree together, when they conspire to destroy the just: not for that they themselves love one an other: but for that they both hate him, whom they ought to love. Of such kind of Consent S. Jerome, although to a far contrary purpose, imagineth jovinian thus to say: 
Hieronym. In Apolo●etico ad Domnionem.  Quoed me damnant Episcopi, non est ratio, sed conspiratio. Nolo mihi ille, vel ille respondeat, quorum me Authoritas opprimere potest, docere non potest: That the Bishops condemn me, there is no Reason in their doings, but a Conspiracy. I would not, that this man, or that man should answer me, which may oppress me by their Authority, and cannot teach me.  
Whether it be convenient, that the Pope, being notoriously accused of manifest corruption in God's Religion, should nevertheless be the whole, and only judge of the same, and pronounce sentence of himself, let it be indifferently considered by the wise.  
The Law saith, 
ff. De jurisdict. omnium judicum.  Nemo sibi debet Ius Dicere: No man may be his own judge. Such Authority, ye say, Kings have in parliaments. Hereof I am not able to dispute. The Princes right many times passeth by Composition: and therefore is not evermore one in all places. How be it, the Pope is a Bishop, and not a King: and other Bishops be not his Subjects, but his Brethren.  
your fourth Objection is but a Cavil. Ye say, ye mock not Princes Ambassadors, but place them next unto your Legates: to sit still, I trow, and to tell the Clock. For voice in judgement ye allow them none. Thus ye proine their Authority, and allow them Honour. notwithstanding, whether the Emperors, and Princes Ambassadors may sit so near to the Pope's Legates, or no, I can not tell. 
The placing of Ambassadors.  Verily the Emperor himself may not be so bold, to press so near unto the Pope. For thus it is ordered in your Book of Ceremonies: Aduertendum est, quod locus, ubi sedet Imperator, non sit altior loco, ubi tenet pedes Pontifex: 
Ceremoniarium Roman. li. 1. Sect. 14. cap. 2.  This is to be noted, that the place, where the Emperor sitteth (in General Council) be no higher, than the place, where the Pope setteth his feet. That is to say, the Emperor must sit at the Pope's footstool, and no higher.  
All the parts of our Religion, which you call Heresies, ye say, are already condemned, just a thousand years paste. Here, M. harding, it would have won you some good credit, if ye could have told us, in what General Council, under what Emperor, by what Doctors, by what Catholic Learned Fathers, these great Errors were thus condemned. As now, ye rove only at large, and feed your simple Reader with your empty Calendares', of thousands of years, and speak at randonne. If it had been true, ye would better have showed it: but being most untrue, as you know it to be, for very shame, ye should never have said it.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division 1. & 2.  
Nevertheless we can bear patiently, and quietly our own private wrongs. But wherefore do they shut out Christian Kings, and good Princes from their Convocation? Why do they so uncourteously, or with such spite leave them out, and as though they were not, either Christian men, or else could not judge, will not have them made acquainted with the causes of Christian Religion, nor understand the state of their own Churches?  
Or, if the said Kings, and Princes happen to intermeddle in such matters, and take upon them to do, that they may do, that they be commanded to do, and aught of duty to do, and the same things, that, we know, both David, and Solomon, and other good Princes have done, that is, if they, whiles the Pope, and his Prelate's siugge, & sleep, or else mischievously withstand them, do bridle the priests sensuality, and drive them to do their duty, and keep them still to it: If they do overthrow Idols, if they take away Superstition, and set up again the true worshipping of God, why do they by and by make an outcry upon them, that such Princes trouble all, and press by violence into an other body's office, and do therein wickedly, and malepeartly? What Scripture hath at any time forbidden a Christian Prince to be made privy to such causes? Who, but themselves alone, made ever any such Law?  

M. harding.  

‡ Untruth, Vain, and unadvised, Read the Answer.  Ye confound the offices of the Spiritual Governors, and Temporal Magistrates. What Kings and Princes may do, what they be commanded to do, and aught of duty to do: in God's name let them do, and well may they so do, Who is he, that gainesaithe? If by the pretenced example of David and Solomon, ye 
* Untruth. It is not our Doctririe But why embolden you the Pope, to intermeddle with Prince's Offices?  animate them to intermeddle with Bishoply offices, then beware they (say we) that God's vengeance light not upon them for such wicked presumption, which lighted upon king Ozias, 
●. Par. 26.  for the like offence.  
Ye teach Princes to use violence against Priests, as though their faults could not be redressed by the 
‡ your Prelates be as blameworthy, and as negligent, as the Priests.  Prelates of the Clergy, of whom ye speak by spiteful surmise, as though God had utterly withdrawn his holy spirit from them. But forasmuch as Christ assisteth his Church always, and shall never fail in things necessary, it is not to be doubted, but the Church shall ever be provided of some good Governors, so as, though some slug and sleep, yet some other shall wake, and diligently attend their charge. priests have their Ecclesiastical courts, where their defaults, and offences may duly, and Canonically be punished: and the offenders, by Priestly discipline, be redressed. Neither is it convenient for a King, to come into priests consistories, 
* Untruth, reproved by the Ancient practice of the Church: as it shall appear  nor to call Priests before him, to his own seat of judgement.  
So many as be necessary to minister, and perform those things, that appertain to the building up of Christ's Body the Church, until it come to his perfection, S. Paul reckoneth by name, in his Epistle to the Ephesians, 
Ephe. 4.  saying that Christ hath to that end, placed in his Church, 
‡ Mark, that Popes, and Cardinals in this rank are not named.  some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some shepherds, and teachers, Kings, and Princes be not there named, as they, who have their proper rank. That the people be to be stirred by us, to more fervent devotion to worship God, and some perhaps, to be warned of some cases of superstition, we grant. But that any other manner or kind of worshipping of God, is either by us, or by temporal Princes, to be set up in Christ's Church, that we deny.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
We confound not these Offices, M. harding, as ye best know: but rather teach each man, carefully to attend his own Office. You, and your Fathers have brought Confusion of Offices into the Church of God, in that yes have made your Pope Heir apparent unto the empire: and have armed him with all manner Authority, Spiritual, and Temporal: and have geeven him the right of Both Swords.  
For thus your own Pope Nicolas telleth you stoutly in his own behalf, Christus Petro, 
Dist. 22. Omnes.  Aeternae vitae Clavigero, Terreni simul, & Coelestis Imperij iura commisit: Christ hath committed unto Peter, the Keiebearer of everlasting Life, the right, as well of the earthily, as of the Heavenly empire. Thus by your Doctrine, priesthood, Kingdom, Popedom, empire, are all conveyed wholly into one man's hands: and so, by your handling, one man is Priest, King, Pope, and Emperor, all at once. This perhaps unto the wise, may seem to be some Confusion of Offices.  
touching that ye writ of the rash attempt of King Ozias, ye seem not to understand, neither out words, nor your own. For we teach not Princes, to Offer up Incense in Sacrifice, 
2. Paralip. 26.  as Ozias did: or by intrusion to thrust themselves into bishops rooms: or to Preach, or to Minister Sacraments, or to Bind, or to Lose: But only to discharge their own Offices, and to do that duty, that David, Solomon, Ezechias, josias, and other Noble, and godly Kings did, and evermore was lawful for the Prince to do. As for Right of Place, and Voice in Council, it pertaineth no less to the Prince, then to the Pope: as hereafter it shall better appear.  
Ye say, Christ shall always assist his Church: and shall evermore provide her of good Governors. Thus, be your negligence, and careless slothfulness never so great, be your lives never so lose: be you Doumbe Dogs, not able to bark, be you Lanterns without Light, be you Salt without savour, yet ye evermore dream sweetly of Christ's Promise, and assure yourselves undoubtedly of his assistance: Even as he that sommetime said, Pan curer oves, oviumque magistros. Would God your Bishops would do their duty, and do it faithfully: The world should have less cause to complain. notwithstanding, Christ is evermore mindful of his promise. For when he seeth his Church defaced, and laid waste, he raiseth up faithful Magistrates, and godly Princes, not to do the Priests, or bishops duties: but to force the Priests, and Bishops, to do their duties.  
But ye say, Christ hath placed in his Church, some Apostles, some Prophets, 
A Bishop convented before the Magistrate.  some Evangelists, some pastors, some Teachers. Kings, ye say, and Princes be not there named. Hereof ye conclude, Ergo, The Prince may not cause the Abuses of his Church to be reformed: nor oversee the Priests, 
Ephes. 4.  and Bishops, if they be negligent: nor force them to do their duties.  
I marvel, M. harding, where ye learned so much Logic. How frame ye this Argument? In what Mood? In what Figure? With what cement can ye make these seely lose parts to cleave together? It pitieth me to see your case. For by like form of Argument, and with much more likelihood of Reason, we may turn the same against yourself, and may say thus: Christ hath placed in his Church, some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some pastors, some Teachers: The Pope, and his Cardinals are not here named: Apostles they are not, For the Apostles were but twelve: Prophets they are not, for they Prophesy nothing: Evangelists they be not, for they Preach not: Pastors, or Feeders they are not, for they Feed not: Doctors, or Teachers they are not, for they teach not. Ergo, by this Authority of S. Paul, and by your own Argument, The Pope, and his Cardinals be utterly excluded, and may not meddle with the charge of the Church of God.  
In such good Substantial sort Pope Paulus. 3. not long sithence, reasoned against the Emperor Charles the fifth, 
Epistola Pauli. 3. ad Carolum. 5.  En ego supra Pastores meos: Behold, saith God Almighty, I will punish my Priests, and Bishops, for their negligence, and wickedness: Ergo, saith Pope Paulus, The Prince, or Emperor may not punish them.  
In this your manner of Reasoning, M. harding, there are well-near as many Errors, as there be words. The first is, Ignoratio Elenchi: which is the grossest Fallax of all the rest: Secondly, ye conclude without either Mood, or Figure: as a very child may easily see. thirdly, ye Reason á Meris Particularibus, or, A non Distributo ad Distributum. fourthly, these words, Rule, or Charge of the Church, are words of double, and doubtful meaning. And therefore your Syllogismus, such as it is, must needs stand of Four Terms: which error in reasoning is too simple for a child.  
touching these words, Rule, and Charge, which I said, are double, and doubtful, notwithstanding we say, both the Prince, and the Bishop have Charge of the Church, yet the Prince, and the Bishop have not both one kind of Charge. The bishops Charge is, to Preach, to Minister Sacraments, to Order Priests, to Excommunicate, to Absolve etc. The Prince's charge is, not to do any of these things himself, in his own person, but only to see, that they be done, and orderly, & truly done by the Bishops.  
I grant, there be many Special Privileges granted upon great, and just considerations, of the mere favour of the Prince, that a Priest, being found neligente, or otherwise offending in his ministery, should be convented, & punished, not by the Temporal, or Civil Magistrate, but by the discretion of the Bishop.  
But, that a Prince, or Magistrate may not lawfully call a Priest before him, to his own seat of judgement, or that many Catholic, and Godly Princes have not so done, and done it lawfully, it is most untrue. The Emperor justinian himself, who of all others moste enlarged the Church's Privileges, 
Cod. Li. 1. de Epis. & Clericis. Nullus.  saith thus: Nullus Episcopus invitus ad Civilem, vel Militarem judicem, in qualibet causa produeatur, vel exhibeatur: nisi Princeps iubeat: Let no Bishop be brought, or presented, against his will, before the Captain, or Civil judge, what so ever the cause be: unless the Prince shall so command it. The Emperor Martianus commandeth, if the cause be criminal, that the Bishop be convented before the Lieutenant: Vt coram Praeside conveniatur. Pope Innocentius. 3. himself confesseth, that the Pope may make a Lay man his Delegate, to hear, 
Cod. De Epis. audi. Si qui ex consensu.  and determine in priests Causes. The like hereof ye may find in your own Gloze: Papa Laico delegat causam Spiritualem: The Pope committeth the hearing of a Spiritual matter unto a Lay man. Yea, further ye shall find even in the Pope's own Decrees, 
Cod. De Epis. & Clericis. Cum Clericis.  that the Pope hath committed a Spiritual matter in a cause of Simony, to be heard, and ended by a Woman: & that Brunichildis, being a Woman, by virtue of the Pope's Commission, summoned a Bishop, to appear, and solemnly to make his Purgation before her. 
De Maiorit. & Obedient. Ca 2. Innocent.  notwithstanding, in your Gloze upon the same it is noted thus: Fuit tamen hîc nimium Papaliter Dispensatum: The Pope was too Popelike in this Dispensation.  
The Emperor Constantinus wrote thus unto the Bishops, 
Il. q. 1. Clericum nullus.  that had been at the Council of Tyrus: Cuncti quotquot Synodum Tyri complevistis, sine mora ad Pietatis nostrae castra properate: ac re ipsa, quàm sincerè ac rectè iudicaveritis, ostendatis: 
2. qu. 5. Mennam. Socrates, Lib. 1. Cap. 34.  Idque Coram me, quem sincerum esse Dei Ministrum, ne vos quidem negabitis: All ye, that have been at the Council of Tyrus, come without delay unto our Camp, and show me plainly, and without Colour, how uprightly ye have dealt in Judgement: and that even before myself, whom you cannot deny to be the true Servant of God.  
justinian the Emperor, in the Law, that he maketh, touching the Public Prayers of the Church, saith thus: We command all Bishops and Priests, to Minister the Holy Oblation, 
Authen. Constitutione. 123.  and the Prayer at the Holy Baptism, not under silence, but with such voice, as may be heard of the faithful People: to the intent, that the hearts of the hearers may be stirred to more devotion, etc. afterward he addeth further, And let the Holy Priests understand, that, if they neglect any of these things, they shall make answer therefore at the dreadful Judgement of the Great God, and our saviour jesus Christ. And yet nevertheless we ourselves understanding the same, will not pass it over, nor leave it unpunished. Hereby we see, that Godly Princes may summon Bishops, to appear before them, even in Causes Ecclesiastical, to receive such punishment, as they have deserved. Likewise the Emperor Constantinus, in his Letters unto the People of Nicomedia, speaking of the wilful Errors, & Heresies of Priests, and Bishops, saith thus: Illorum temeraria praesumptio, 
Theodoretus Li. 1 Ca 19 Augustin contra Epist Parmeniani. Li. 1. Ca 7.  mea, hoc est, Ministri Christi, manu coercebitur: Their rash attempts shallbe repressed by my hand, that is to say, by the hand of Christ's Servant. So likewise saith S. Augustine unto the Donatists: An fortè de Religione fas non est ut dicat Imperator, vel quos miserit Imperator? Cur ergo ad Imperatorem Legati vestri venerunt? It is not lawful, that the Emperors, or the emperors deputee should pronounce in a case of Religion? Wherefore then went your own Ambassadors to the Emperor?  
But what speak we of other Priests, and Inferior Bishops? The Popes themselves, notwithstanding all their Universal Power, have submitted themselves, & made their Purgations before Kings, & Emperor. Pope Liberius made his humble appearance before the Emperor Constantius: 
Theodor. Lib. 2. Cap. 16.  Pope Sixtus was accused, and made his Purgation before the Emperor Valentinian: Pope Leo 3. 
2. Quaest. 4. Man. dastis.  being accused by Paschalis, and Campulus, pleaded his cause before Carolus Magnus at Rome, not yet chosen Emperor. Pope john 22. was accused of Heresy, 
2. Quae. 4. Auditum.  and forced to recant the same unto Philip the French King.  
Pope Leo 4. 
Gerson in Sermone Paschali. 2. quae. 7. Nos si.  in this wise humbly submitteth himself unto the judgement of Lews the Emperor: Nos si incompetenter aliquid egimus, & in Subditis iustae Legis tramitem non conseruavimus, vestro admissorum nostrorum cuncta volumus emendare judicio: If we have done any thing out of order, and if we have not followed the right course of the Law over our Subjects, we will amend all our faults by your majesties judgement.  
Your own Gloze saith, Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori, ut deponat ipsum: & sese in omnibus illi subijcere: The Pope may give the Emperor power to depose himself: 
Dist. 63. In Synodo. In Gloss. Francis. Zarabella, De schemate, & Concil.  and may in all things submit himself unto him. To be short, Franciscus Zarabella saith, Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio: Et Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem Fidei: The Pope may be accused before the Emperor of any notorious crime: and the Emperor may require the Pope to yield an account of his Faith.  
Now therefore, M. harding, I report me to your own indifferent judgement, how true it is, that ye say, It is not convenient, for a King to call Priests before him to his own Seat of judgement. Verily, this Note ye might have found Glossed in your own decretals: 
Extra. De Maiorita. & Obedie. Ca 2. In Margin.  Quaeritur, quis exemit Clericum de jurisdictione Imperatoris, cum priùs esset illi subiectus? Dicit Laurentius, quòd Papa de consensu Principis: A question is moved, Who hath exempted a Priest from the Jurisdiction of the Emperor, whereas before he was subject to the emperors Court? Laurence saith, The Pope hath exempted him, by the Consent of the Prince. Ye see therefore, M. harding, your Priests, Abbates, and Bishops have their Privileges, and Exemptions, not by any right of God's Word, but only by the Pope's Policy, and by the Special favour of the Prince.    

The Apology, Cap. 9 Division. 3.  
They will say to this, I guess, Civil Princes have learned to govern a Common Wealth, and to order matters of War: but they understand not the secret Mysteries of Religion. If that be so, what is the Pope, I pray you, at this day, other than a Monarch, or a Prince? Or, what be the Cardinals, who must be none other now, but Princes, & kings Sons? What else be the patriarchs, &, for the most part, the archbishops, the Bishops, the Abbates? What be they else at this present in the Pope's Kingdom, but worldly Princes, but Dukes, and Earls, gorgeously accompanied with bands of men, whither so ever they go: Oftentimes also gaily arrayed with Chains, and Collars of gold? They have at times too, certain Ornaments by themselves, as Crosses, Pillars, Hats, Mitres, & Palles: which Pomp the Ancient Bishops, Chrysostom, Augustine, & Ambrose never had. Setting these things aside, what teach they? What say they? What do they? How live they? I say not, as may become a Bishop, but as may become a Christian man? Is it so great a matter, to have a vain title, and by changing a garment only to have the name of a Bishop?  

M. harding.  
The duty of civil Princes consisteth in civil matters: the duty of Bishops, in spiritual things. That serveth to the preservation of men's persons: this to the Salvation of their Souls. Every high Priest (saith S. Paul) that is taken from among men, 
Heb. 5.  is ordained for men in things appertaining to God. 
* Untruth manifest. For we move no Prince to take upon him a Bishops Office.  Re move temporal Princes, to take upon them the office of the Pope, and Bishops, as though it were a thing so indifferent, and so common, that when Bishops be negligent, temporal men may do their steed. But the reason, which to this end ye make, is so slender, as I ween, few Princes that fear God, willbe greatly moved to ad●enter that thing so much subject and 〈…〉 your reason is this, 
Bishops entangled in worldly affairs.  consider it who will: They of the clergy 〈…〉 Ergo, Temporal 〈◊〉 may bear the office of Bishops. 〈…〉 and your Antecedent is false. For although bishops 〈…〉 changing a garment only, as you say▪ yet that defect in them should. 〈…〉 late▪ as to Kings, and Queens, to do the Office of 〈…〉 false for the Bishops of the Catholic Church, 〈…〉 ordinated, and consecrated.  
Though the Pope have a Princely dominion, 〈◊〉 some other Bishops: of christendom have Dukedoms and earldoms, though they ride well 〈…〉 some of them otherwise then becometh that vocation, do wear 〈…〉 them: though they have other ornaments to their 〈…〉. which grieveth you much in comparison of the 
* Untruth. For this is our Reason: A Temporal, Prince, say you, may not, meddle in Ecclesiastical causes: But the Pope, say we, is nothing else but a Temporal Prince: Ergo, by your judgement.  beggary of your married estate: yet all this imbarreth them 〈◊〉 but that they be Bishops.  
Though they teach not, 
The Pope may not meddle in Ecclesiastical Causes.  though they say not, though they do not, though they live not, as becometh. Bishops, neither as becometh even a Christian man, 
‡ Untruth. Read the Answer.  as you rail, all this notwithstanding, yet be they Bishops, though evil Bishops. Neither for all this may it be latefull for 〈◊〉 to take their office upon them. 
* O glorious Thraso. Then was the Apostles state much more beggarly.  judas was an Apostle till the rope choked him. Neither for his wickedness might Streven, Mathias, or any other of the Disciples of his own presumpt to have smepte into his r●●me. Now is this is true, so is your railing talk false, which malice hath stirred you to utter.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Oui● again we tell le you, M. harding, we confound not these Offices: notwithstanding you so often, and so lewdly report us, to your own discredit. 
This ellinge as not ours, but S. B●●nardes.  Our Princes never took upon them, the Office of Bishops: But your Bishops have taken upon them the Office of Princes. Of your Bishops it is written in your own Councils: 
* The Pope by M harding compared with judas.  Ecce, iam pe●e nulla est acts 〈◊〉, quam non Sacerdotes administrent: Behold, there is now in a 〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉 affair, but Priests, and bishops ●aue it in hand. Such Bishops be they, of whom S. Chrysostom writeth thus, 
〈◊〉. Citatur ab Illyrico inter 〈◊〉 Verit. Pag. 121. Chrysostom. In Matth. Hom. 35. Hieronym. Contra  Qui non credunt judicium Dei, nec timen●, abutentes Primatu suo Ecclesiastico saeculariter, convertunt eum in saecularem: They that neither believe, nor fear the Judgement of God, 〈◊〉 their Ecclesiastical Dignity in Seculare sort, turn the same into Seculare Dignity: Such Bishops they be, of whom S. Jerome saith thus, Ipsi sibi & Laici sunt, & Episcopi: They themselves be to themselves both laymen, and Bishops too. And again, Adorant Dominum, & Melchom, qui Saecedo pariter, & Domino putant se posse servire, & duobus Dominis satisfacere, Deo, & Mammonae: qui Militantes Christo, obligant sese negotijs Saecularibus, & candem Imaginem offerunt & Deo, & Caesari: They worship the Lord, and Melchom both together, thinking, that they may serve both the world, 
Hieronym. in Sophontam ca●. Concil. Trident. Sub Paulo 3. Admonitio Legator.  and the Lord, and satisfy two Masters at once, God, and Mammon: who fighting under Christ, bind themselves to worldly affairs, and offer up one Image both to God, and to Caesar.  
If ye will believe none of these, yet your Popes own Legates, in your late Chapter at trident, speaking of your Priestelike Apparel, say thus: Nihil à Laic●s, praeterquam in Vestis genere, ac ne in hoc quidem differunt: Our Priests differ nothing from laymen, saving only in Apparel: nay, in deed they differ not so much from them, as in Apparel.  
Ye say, 
Aventinus. Le. 3. De Ruperto, Christum omnium Deorum esse pauperrimum.  your Bishops are gay, and gallant, attended, and guarded with Princelike routs, both behind, and before: And thereof ye make no small account, specially in respect of our estate, which you call beggarly. In such disdain the Heathens sommetime said, That Christ was the Beggerliest, and poorest of all the Gods that were in Heaven. 
Ecclesiastical bravery in Apparel.  How be it, our bishoprics, saving that certain of your Fathers have shamefully spoiled them, are now, even as they were before. Certainly the Poorest Bishopric in England, as it is reported, is better in revenues, theli some three of your Pope's Italian bishoprics in the Kingdom of Naples. How be it, the Gospel of Christ standeth not by Richesse, but by Truth. In comparison of the one, we make small reckoning of the other.  
Nevertheless, the Wise, and Godly have evermore found fault with the Ecclesiastical Bravery of your Roman clergy. 
Bernard. in Cantica. Sermo. 33. Holcote in Sapien. Lectio. 23. Bernard in Cantica. Sermo. 77.  S. bernard saith, Ind est, quem quotidiè ideses, Meretriceus Nitor: Histrionicus habitus: Regius Apparatus. Ind Aurum in Frenis, in Sellis, in Calcaribus: Therehence cometh their Whoorelike Fineness: their players Weed: their Princely Apparel. Therehence cometh their Gold in their Bridles, in their Saddles, and in their Spurs. Again he saith, Incedunt nitidi, & ornati, circumamicti varietatibus, tanquam Sponsa procedens de thalamo suo. Nonnè si quempiam talium eminùs procedentem aspexeris, Sponsam potids putabis, quàm Sponsae Custodem? They go trimmely, and finely in their colours, as if a Spouse should come from her Chamber. If thou shouldest suddenly see one of them letting a far of, wouldst thou not rather think, it were a Spouse, than the keeper of the Spouse?  
Pope Bonifacius 8. in a great jubilee, 
Paralipomena. Vrspergen.  and in a Solemn Procession, went appareled in the emperors Robes: and had the Crown Imperial on his Head, and the sword of Majesty borne before him, as an Emperor.  
This Spiritual joilitie, M. harding, liketh you well. notwithstanding S. bernard saith, 
Bernard. De Consideratione ad Eugenium, Lib. 1.  Daemonum magis, quàm ovium, sunt haec pascua. Scilicet, sic factitabat Petrus: sic Paulus ludebat: These be pastors for Devils, not for Sheep. No doubt, Even thus did Peter: even such pastime played S. Paul.  
Ye tell us further, Though they teach not, though they say not, though they do not, though they live not, as becometh Bishops, nor as becometh a Christian man, yet be they Bishops not withstanding. Hereat we will not greatly strive. For so the Wolf, if he once get a Sheephooj, and a Cloak, may be a shepherd: and a Blindman, if he get once into the Watch Tower, may be a Spy. But miserable are the Poor Sheep, that so are fed: miserable is that Poor Castle, that so is watched.  
S. Augustine saith, 
8. quae. 1. Qui Episcopatum. Augustin.  Episcopatus est nomen Operis, non Honoris: ut intelligat, se non esse Episcopum, qui praeesse dilexerit, non prodesse: A bishops Office is a name of Labour, and not of Honour: that, who so loveth to rule, and not to profit, may understand himself to be no Bishop. Again he saith of such a one, 
2. quae. 7. qui nec. Augustin.  Canis impudicus dicendus est magis, quàm Episcopus: He ought rather to be called a shameless Dog, than a Bishop.  
As for that, ye say, Your Bishops be duly Ordinated, and consecrated, S. Augustine replieth, 
August. contra Donatist. Li. 6.  Ipsum Characterem multi, & Lupi, & Lupis imprimunt: touching the outward Consecration of a Bishop, many give it to Woulues, and be Woulues themselves.  
S. bernard, 
Bernard. De Consideratione ad Eugenio. Li. 3.  speaking of your Priests, and Bishops, saith, Habitu Milites: quaestu Clericos: actu neutros exhibent. Nam neque ut Milites, pugnant: neque ut Clerici, Euangelizant. Cuius ergo Ordinis sunt? Cùm utriusque esse cupiunt, utrunque deserunt: utrunque confundunt. unusquisque, inquit, in suo Ordine resurget. In quo isti? An qui sine Ordine peccaverunt, sine Ordine peribunt? Vereor, non alibi Ordinandos, quàm ubi nullus Ordo, sed sempiternus horror inhabitat: In their apparel, they are Soldiers: in their gains, they are Priests, and Bishop: but in effect, and in deed, they are neither of both. For neither do they fight in the field, as do Soldiers: nor do they preach, as Priests, and Bishops. Of whether Order therefore be they? Whereas they would be of both Orders, they foresake both, and confound both. S. Paul saith, Every man shall rise again in his own Order. 
1. Corinth. 15.  But in what Order shall these rise? Whether, for as much, as they have finned without Order, shall they perish without Order? I fear me, they shallbe Ordered none otherwhere, but where as is no Order, but disorder, and horror everlasting.  
Thus plainly speak your own Doctoures, touching your clergy: which plainness it pleaseth you, M. harding, to call false, and malicious railing.    

The Apology, Cap. 10. Division. 1.  
Surely, to have the principal stay, and effect of all matters committed wholly to these men's hands, who neither know, nor will know these things, nor yet set a jot by any point of Religion, save that, which concerneth their belly, and riot, and to have them alone sit as judges, and to be set up as overseers in the Watch tower, being no better than Blind Spies: of the other side, to have a christian Prince of good understanding, & of a right judgement, to stand still like a block, or a stake, not to be suffered, neither to give his voice, nor to show his judgement, but only to wait, what these men shall will, and command, as one, which had neither ears, nor eyes, nor wit, nor heart, and, whatsoever they give in charge, to allow it without exception, blindly fulfilling their Commandments, be they never so blasphemous, and wicked, yea, although they command him quite to destroy all Religion, and to Crucify again Christ himself, This surely, besides that it is proud, and spiteful, is also beyond all right, and reason, and not to be endured of Christian, & wise Princes. For why, I pray you, may Caiphas, & Annas understand these matters, and may not David, and Ezechias do the same? Is it lawful for a Cardinal, being a man of war, and delitinge in Blood, to have place in a Council: and is it not lawful for a Christian Emperor, or a King?  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Hereto M. harding saith nothing, but that he hath oftentimes said before.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 1.  
Verily, we grant no further Liberty to our Magistrates, then that we know hath both been geeven them by the Word of God, and also confirmed by the Examples of the very best governed Common Wealths.  

M. harding.  
If a man should ask you, where that word of God is, that maketh a temporal Prince Supreme head of that part of the Church, which he hath gournement of in all civil matters, I am sure you can bring forth 
* Untruth. For we allege many other places besides, as it may soon appear.  no other word of God. then that, wherein S. Peter, 
1. Pet. 2. Rom. 13.  and S. Paul willeth all men to obey the Superior powers, especially Kings. Which thing was written to all Christian men, whiles they lived under Heathen Princes, and Infidels, as Claudius Cesar, and Nero were, whom, I suppose, ye will not say to have been heads of the whole Church, as they were monarch and Princes of the whole world. 
Supreme Head. Supreme governor.  If then by those Scriptures which cannot prove Nero (being a 
* Then cannot the Pope be Head of the Church: For he hath persecuted the Church as much, as Nero.  persecutor of Christ's Church) to have been head of the same, you will now prove, that other Princes are supreme heads of the Church: it seemeth that either you make Nero head of the Church with them, or give more unto them, than the word of God will bear. And as for examples of good common weals, show us but one since Christ's ascension, wherein before Luther's time, any Emperor Christian, or other Prince did attribute that title unto himself: and we will say, that, when you speak of common weals in the plural number, you make but one lie: but in case you show us no one common weal that hath so done, than you lie in the plural number. Yea further, if at this day the common weals in Christendom, not only that are Catholic, but the best also of those, that are Lutherishe, and new-fangled, do abhor from that strange, and unheard title of 
‡ Much a do about nothing: For our Prince hath not this Title. But Queen Marie had, and used the same title of Supreme Head: as many ways it may be proved.  supreme head of the Church, why do you say, that ye have, either word of God for it, or example of approved common weals?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Concerning the title of Supreme Head of the Church, we need not to search for Scriptures to excuse it. For, first, we devised it not: Secondly, we use it not: Thirdly, our Princes at this present claim it not. Your Fathers, M. Harding, first entitled that most Noble, and most Worthy Prince, King Henry the Eighth, with that Unused, and Strange Style, as it may well be thought, the rather to bring him into the talk, and slander of the world.  
How be it, that the Prince is the Highest judge, & governor over all his Subjects what so ever, as well Priests, as Lay men, without exception, it is most evident, by that hath been already said: by that shall be said hereafter: by the whole course of the Scriptures: and by the undoubted practice of the Primitive Church. Verily, the Prince, as it shall afterward better appear, had Both the Tables of the Law of God evermore committed to his charge: as well the first, that pertaineth to Religion, as also the second, that pertaineth to Civil Government.  
But now, M. harding, if a man would ask you, by what Word of God your Priests, and Bishops have exempted themselves from the judgement, and Government of their Princes: Or, by what Word of God the Prince's hand is restrained more from his clergy, then from other his Subjects: or, by what Word of God, ye would stablish two Supreme governors in one Realm, I marvel, in what Scriptures ye would seek to find it. Your own Doctoures, and Glosers say, as it is before alleged: 
Extra. De maiorita. & obedien. Ca 2. In margi.  Quaeritur, quis exemit Clericum de jurisdictione Imperatoris, cùm priùs esset illi Subiectus? Dicit Laurentius, quòd Papa de consensu Principis: Question is moved, who hath exempted thee Priest from the jurisdiction of the Emperor, whereas before he was his Subject? Laurentius saith (not the Word of God, but) the Pope exempted him, by the Consent of the Prince.  
Further, M. harding, we beseech you, by what Word of God can your Pope claim himself, to be the Head of the Universal Church of God? Where is it recorded? Where is it written? In what part of the Testament, New or Old? In what Law? In what Prophet? In what Epistle? In what Gospel? Where is his Headship? Where is his Universal Power? If ye can find it, then may ye show it: If it cannot be found, then should ye not say it. As for that you, and other your Fellows have alleged before, for proof hereof, it is so childish, & so weak, that, I think, ye cannot now come again with the same, without blushing.  
touching the Right, that we say, belongeth unto all Christian Princes, it hath been invested, 
Epist Eleutherij. Citatur inter Leges Edwardi Primi.  and planted in them from the beginning. For, to leave other Authorities of the Scriptures, Pope Eleutherius himself wrote thus unto Lucius, sommetime King of this Realm of England: Vos estis Vicarius Dei in Regno, juxta Prophetam Regium: You are God's Vicar within your own Realm, according to the Prophet David.  
Paul the Bishop of Apamea, writeth thus unto the Emperor justinian, in a cause mere Ecclesiastical, touching Religion: Transtulit ipsum Dominus, ut Plenitudinem directionis vestrae custodiret Serenitati: 
Quintae Synodi Act io. 1 pijssimo.  Our Lord hath taken Pope Agapetus away, that he might leave the Fullness of order (concerning these Heretics, Dioscorus, and Eutyches) unto your Majesty.  
Tertullian saith, 
Tertullian. Ad Scapulam.  Colimus Imperatorem, ut hominem à Deo Secundum, Solo Deo Minorem: We Worship the Emperor, as a man next unto God, and inferior only unto God.  
And, notwithstanding the name of Head of the Church belong peculiarly, and only unto Christ, as his only Right, and Inheritance (for as the Church is the Body, so Christ is the Head) yet may the same sometimes also be applied in sober meaning, and good sense, not only unto Princes, but also unto others, far inferior unto Princes. Chrysostom saith, Videntur mihi istae mulieres Caput fuisse Ecclesiae, 
Chryso. in Epist. ad Phili. Hom. 13 A Wooman Head of the Church. Chrysosto. ad Populum Antioch. Homil. 2.  quae illic erat: It seemeth unto me, that these women were the Head of the Church, that was at Philippi. Likewise again, speaking of the Emperor, he saith thus: Laesus est, qui non habet parem ullum super terram, Summitas, & Caput omnium super terram hominum: We have offended him, that in the Earth hath no peer, the Top, and the Head of all men in the World. If he were the Head of all men, than was he the Head, not only of Bishops, and Cardinals, but also of the Pope himself: unless the Pope were no man.  
To conclude, our Princes need no more to claim their Lawful Authority, and Imperial Right, by the Example of Nero, whereof ye have moved much untimely, and wanton talk, than your Pope needeth to claim his Usurped, & Coloured Power, by the Examples of Annas, and Caiphas.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 2.  
For besides that, a Christian Prince hath the charge of Both Tables committed to him by God, to the end he may understand, that, not Temporal matters only, but also Religious, and Ecclesiastical Causes pertain to his office, etc.  

M. harding.  
You will prove that Ecclesiastical causes pertain to a Kings of fice, because he hath the charge of both tables. If you mean that a King is bound to keep both tables of the law, so is also every private man. And yet, as no private man is supreme head of the Church by keeping them, so neither the King is proved thereby the 
‡ A grave disputer. Ye conclude against that, that is not avouched.  supreme head. If you mean that the King ought to see others to keep both tables of the law: that may he do, either in appointing temporal pains for the transgressors of them, or in executing the said pains upon the transgressors. But as he cannot excommunicate any man for not appearing, when he is called, so can he not judge all causes of the law. For if a man sin only in his heart, as for example, in murder, or adultery: the King cannot have to do with him. And yet the true supreme head of the Church shall have to do with him. For that malicious and sinful thought 
* Untruth, fond, and manifest, and leading directly to desperation.  shall never be forgiven, except the party come to be absolved of their Successors, to whom Christ said, 
johan. 20.  whose sins ye forgive▪ they are forgiven: and whose sins ye retain, they are retained. To commit murder in heart, is a sin, and it is retained until it be forgiven. 
‡ Untruth joined with blasphemy. Read the Answer.  Neither can it be forgiven. until he that is judge, by the key of discretion, perceive that it is to be forgiven. Which he cannot know, until it be confessed with a contrite heart, by him who only knoweth it, and is bound to tell it, for absolutions' sake. If then there be a judge, who can see the law kept in an higher point, and beyond the reach of the King, surely the King shall not be supreme head▪ sith an other is more like to God, than he. A● who is judge of the inward conscience, whereunto no King reacheth, 
Matth. 16.  but 
* A fond folly. For this Key is geeven no more to the Pope, then to any other Simple Priest.  only the minister of Christ▪ who is the spiritual King, and hath given the keys of his Kingdom to his minister.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, ye roa●e, and wander without a mark, and reply to that, that was not spoken. I marvel, whereof ye can spin yourself such idle talk. For we neither call our Princes the Heads of the Church of Christ: (it was your Father's invention, and not ours) nor say we, They have Power, either to Excommunicate, or to Bind, or to Lose: nor have we leisure to make such vain Conclusians.  
Thus we say, the Prince is put in trust, as well with the first, as with the second Table of the Law of God: that is to say, as well with Religion, and with Temporal Government: not only to keep, and perform the contents of Both Tables, in his own Person (for so much every private man is bound to do) but also to see, that all others his Subjects, as well Priests, as laymen, each man in his calling, do duly keep them. This is it, that no Private man is able to do. 
August. in Epist. 50. Ad Bonifac.  Therefore S. Augustine saith, In hoc serviunt Domino Reges, in quantum sunt Reges, cùm ea faciunt ad seruiendum illi, quae non possunt facere, nisi Reges: Herein Kings serve the Lord, in that they be Kings, when they do those things to serve him, that noman can do, but only Kings. We say not, the Prince is bound to do the bishops duty: And therefore it is the greater sol●e of your part, M. harding, to object it so often. Wise men use not so to adventure their words in vain. But thus we say, The Prince to bound to see the Bishops to do their duties.  
But what meant you, so far out of season, to talk so fond of your Privy Confessions, of binding, and loosing, and Power of Keys? For, as it is said before, we say not, that Princes may, either Bind, or Lose: or Minister Sacraments: or Preach the Gospel: or sit down, and Hear Confessions. Therefore with all this great ado, ye foin only at your own shadow, and hit nothing.  
ye say full discreetly, If a man sin only in his heart, the King cannot have to do with him, for that be cannot enter, to know his secrets. Here, I beseech you, M. harding, what entrance hath the Pope, to know the secrets of the Heart? Perhaps ye will say, the Pope may know all the world by Confession. But S. Augustine saith, Quid mihi est cum hominibus, 
August. Confess. Lib. 10. Cap. 3.  ut audiant Confessiones meas, etc. unde sciunt, cùm à me ipso de me ipso audiunt, an verum dicam: quamdoquidem nemo scit hominum quid agatur in homine, nisi Spiritus hominis, qui in ipso est: What have I to do with these men, that they should hear my Confessions, etc. How know they, when they hear me report of me self, whether I say true, or no? For noman knoweth, what is in man, but the Spirit of man, 
Aug. in Psal. 126  that is within him. Again he saith unto the people, Intrantes vos, & exeuntes possumus videre. Vsqueadeò autem non videmus, quid cogitetis in cordibus vestris, ut neque quid agaris in domibus vestris videre possimus: We may see you coming in, and going forth. But we are so far from seeing the thoughts of your hearts, that we cannot see, what you do at home in your houses. Likewise again he saith, 
Aug. in Psal. 127  Quid singulorum quorumque modò conscientiae dixerint, ad aures meas, quia homo sum, pervenire non potuit. Ille, qui Absens est praesentia Corporis, sed Praesens est Vigore Maiestatis, audivit vos: What every of your Consciences hath said, it could not enter into my ears, for that I am but a Mortal man. notwithstanding, Christ, that is absent, as touching the Presence of his Body, but present by the Power of his Majesty, hath heard you well. It is, not the Pope, but God only, that trieth the reins, and searcheth the heart.  
Yet ye say, the True Supreme Head of the Church shall have to do with him, that sinneth only secretly in his heart: For that malicious, and sinful thought, say you, shall never be forgiven, except the party come to be Absolved of their Successors, to whom Christ said, Whoes sins ye foregeve, etc. This, M. harding, is the Supreme Folly of all others Follies. For first, where ever heard you, that the Pope would lonce vouchsafe to Hear Confessions? And, if he would, yet by yours own Doctoures judgement, the Pope hath no more Power to Bind, and to Lose, than any other Poor Simple Priest. As I have showed you before, Alphonsus de Castro saith, 
Alphons. De Haeresib. Lib. 2. De Absolutione. Origen. in Matthae. Tractat. 1.  Quando Absoluit Simplex Sacerdos, tantum Absoluit de Culpa, sicut Papa: When a Simple Priest absolveth, he absolveth as much, touching the fault, as if it were the Pope himself. Origen saith, Quae sequuntur, velut ad Petrum dicta, sunt omnium communia, etc. Quod si nos idem loquimur, quod Petrus locutus est, efficimur Petrus: The words, that follow, as spoken unto Peter, are common unto al. If we speak the sane, that Peter spoke, then are we made Peter. Even in the Pope's own Gloze upon his decretals it is noted thus, In necessitate Laicus potest & Audire Confessiones, & Absoluere: In case of necessity a Laieman may both hear Confessions, 
Extra. De of fie. judicis Ordina. Pastoralis. In Gloss.  and also give Absolution. Yet will ye not say, that every Laieman is Peter's successor.  
To what purpose then serveth all this your vain talk, M. harding, The true Supreme Head of the Church shall have to do with him, that sinneth only in his heart? For every Simple Priest, having the key of God's Word, entereth into the heart, & hath to do with the same, as well, and as much, as the Pope: & in respect of being judge of the Conscience, is above Kings, & Princes, no less then he.  
But, where ye say, The malicious, and sinful thought shall never be forgiven, except the party come to be Absolved of their Successors, to whom Christ said, whoes sins ye foregeve, etc. this Doctrine is not only strange and false, but also full of Desperation. Your own Gratian saith, 
De poenit. Dist. 1 Quis aliquado.  Latentia peccata non probantur necessariò Sacerdoti confitenda: It is not proved (by any sufficient Authority either of Scriptures, or of Doctors) that Secret Sins are of necessity to be uttered in Confession unto the Priest. Again he saith, 
De poenit. Dis. 1. Conuertimin●. In eodem Cap.  Datur intelligi, quòd etiam ore tacente, veniam consequi possumus: It is given us to understand, that we may obtain pardon, although we utter nothing with our Mouth. And again, Non Sacerdotali judicio, sed largitate Divinae Gratiae peccator emendatur: The Sinner is cleansed, not by the judgement of the Priest, but by the abundance of God's Grace. 
De poenit. Dis. 1 Omnis qui.  Again he saith, Confessio Sacerdoti offertur in signum veniae, non in causam Remissionis accipiendae: Confession is made unto the Priest, in token of Foregevenesse already obtained: not as a cause of Foregevenesse to be obtained. Your very Gloze saith, 
De poenit. Dis. 5. In poeniten. In Glossa.  Apud Graecos Confessio non est necessaria: quia non emanavit ad illos Traditio talis: Among the Christians in Graecia Confession of Sins is not necessary: for that this Tradition never came among them. Yet, M. harding, I trow, ye will not say, but their sins may be forgiven.  
Certainly Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. De Confess. & poenit.  Solus te Deus confitentem videat: Let God only see thee making the Confession of thy Sins.  
It was very much therefore, M. harding, for you, so assuredly, and so precisely to say, that sins can never be forgiven without your Privy Confession: and specially thereby to prove the Universal Headeship of the Pope.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 3.  
Besides also, that God by his Prophets often, and earnestly commandeth the King, to cut down the Groves: to break down the Images, and Altars of Idols: and to Writ out the Book of the Law for himself: 
The Prince judgeth in Ecclesiastical causes.  and besides that, the Prophet Esaias saith, a King ought to be a Patron, and a Nurse of the Church, etc.  

M. harding.  
Your second argument for the Ecclesiastical Power of Kings is, because God bade them to cut down superstitious groves, and overthrow idols: 
* The King is the priests Executioner.  as though this were not an office of executing a commandment, rather than of decreeing any thing. The Authority to discern an image of Christ from an idol of the devil, belongeth to them, who know, that an image is a name of art, which is of God: an idol is a name of false worshipping, which is of the Devil. So that an image is godly: and idol devilish. When the Priest hath judged this, or that, to be an idol, or when it is evident, that so it is, than the king shall do well to break it down. 
‡ O Vanity of Vanities: Aaron the Bishop set up the Golden Calf, and cried unto the people, This is thy God. But Moses the Civil Magistrate, or Prince, broke it down.  But if the King will break down the image of Christ, when the Priest telleth him it is a godly representation, and no idol: then the King doth more than his office requireth: And shall not only not prove his supremacy, but also shall incur danger to be rejected of God, 
1. Reg. 28.  as King Saul was, when he despised to keep the commandment of Samuel the high Priest.  
Whereas you allege for a kings Ecclesiastical Power, that he was commanded to write out the Book of the law for himself: why left ye out that, which followeth there immediately, accipiens exemplar à Sacerdotibus Leviticae tribus? 
Deut. 17.  The King must write out a Book of the Deuteronomie: but the example thereof he must receive of the Priests that be of the tribe of Leut. If in spiritual matters the King were above the Priests. 
* Full discreetly. As though Kings had not Officers, to keep their Records.  why had he not the keeping of the Law in his own hands? Why must he take it of the Priests? why did not rather the Priests come to him, sith the inferior taketh all his right of the superior? If the Priests must give the holy scripture unto the King, then verily must he take such as they give him, and with such meaning, as they give unto it. So that if you had not 
‡ Untruth. For we have falsified no part hereof: as it shall appear.  falsified the meaning of God's word by leaving out half the sentence, this place had proved against you. It is to be weighed to what end a King is required to have, and to read that holy Book. Verily not to take upon him the part of a judge in causes of Religion: but as there it is expressed, to th'intent he learn to fear his Lord God, 
Deut. 17.  and keep his words, and ceremomonies in the law commanded, and that his heart be not lifted up into pride, above his brethren, etc. 
* Here M. Hard. would feign say sommewhat if he wist what it were. Read the Answer.  I omit, that you read, Librum legis, whereas the Church readeth Deuteronomium: * it were too long to enter into that disputation. The book of the law, signifieth the whole law: the Deuteronomie is but one of the five books.  
Where isaiah calleth a King a Patron of the Church, I have not found. But were it he called him so, it betokeneth, that he should defend the Church from worldly enemies, as in repellinge the Turks, in expelling Heretics, and such like kingly acts. Which proveth no spiritual supremacy, but under God a fealty, and serviceable power. I find where isaiah saith, Et erunt Reges nutricij tui, & Reginae nutrices tuae. 
Cap. 49.  kings shall be thy fosterers, and Queens thy nurses. But not every nurse, or fosterer is above him, who is nourished. 
‡ By this pretty Conclusion, the King is the Servant: and the Priest is the Master.  A faithful servant oftentimes fostereth the master. Yet is he not above his master. Besides, S. Jerome understandeth the Kings, whom isaiah nameth, to be the Apostles: according to which sense, it maketh nothing to the purpose it is alleged for.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
All Christian Princes are much beholden to you, M. Harding: ye make them so like to Polyphemus the Giante. after his eyes were stricken out: that is to say, to a man mighty in body, and great in bones: but stark blind, and no way able to guide himself. A King, ye say, may not take upon him, to judge, or Pronounce in matters of Religion, be they never so clear: but only must hearken, & be ready to execute, what so ever shallbe thought good, and commanded by your Bishops: as if he were only your Bishops man. So saith your Holy Father Pope Bonifacius. 8. Gladius Materialis exercendus est manu Regum, 
De Maior. & Obedien. unam Sanctam.  & Militum: Sed ad nutum, & patientram Sacerdotis: The Material, or Temporal Sword must be used by the hand of Kings, 
The Prince judgeth in Ecclesiastical causes.  and Soldiers: but at the beck, and sufferance of the Priest: By which Priest he meaneth the Pope.  
But David saith, Now, ye Kings, have understanding: Be learned, ye, that judge the Earth. 
Psalm. 2.  Good Kings have oftentimes reformed Religion, and have lawfully controlled, and corrected, and deposed idle, and wicked Bishops: as before, in place convenient, 
Authen. Constitu. 123. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  it is largely proved. The Emperor justinian threateneth, if the Bishop offended in saying the public service, or in the Ministration of the Sacraments, that then he himself would use his Authority over him, and see him punished. Franciscus Zarabella saith, that for any crime notorious, the Emperor may summon the Pope, to appear before his Majesty, and may require him, to yield a reckoning of his Faith. And yet will ye say, The Emperor is still the Pope's man, 
Fancis. Zarabell. De Schemate, & Concil.  and may judge nothing in Causes of Religion without him?  
The King, ye say, is not able to judge, whether an Idol be an Idol, or no, but by the leading, and teaching of the Priest. So well ye wish all Christian Princes were instructed, that they should not be able, either to see, or to speak without you. But, what if you Priests say, as it hath often happened, God is an Idol, & an Idol is God? 
isaiah 5. Actor. 19 johan. 18.  Light is Darkness: and Darkness is Light? what if they say, Great is Diana the Goddess of Ephesus? What if they condemn the innocent, and say, as they smometime said of Christ, unless this man were a malefactor, we would never have brought him to thy hand? Yet must the Prince nevertheless draw his Sword, and strike, when, and whom so ever the Priest biddeth: and blindly execute his wicked will? 
M. harding, Pag. 302 a. M. harding. Pag. 192 a. Pag. 192. b.  In deed, M. harding, you say precisely: If the matter decreed be Spiritual, and appertaining to Faith, the Prince ought to obey without question, or grudge Likewise again ye say, It shallbe enough for you, to do, as the successors of Peter bid you to do. Christ now requireth of you, not to obey Peter, and Paul: but to obey him, that sitteth in their Chair: What so ever he say, True, or false. For this, no doubt, must be your meaning.  
The King was bound to write out the Book of the Law. This, ye say, proveth not the kings Superiority over the Priests. No verily, M. harding: Neither was it alleged by us to that purpose. Nevertheless, hereby it appeareth, that God would have the King to be learned in his Laws.  
But the King must receive the Book of the Priest, and of none other: Therefore, say you, the Priest is above the King. Me thinketh, M. harding, even for your credits sake, ye should look better to your Logic. For what availeth the delivery of a Book, 
Ceremoniari. Lib. 2. Sectio. 2.  to make the Priest, either higher, or lower? When the Pope is at his Consecration, the Cardinal, that is his Orderer, delivereth him a Book of the Epistles, and Gospels. And will ye thereof conclude, that the said Cardinal is above the Pope? Marry, God forbid.  
God's meaning, 
Paul. Phagius in Deuter. Cap. 17.  touching this Ceremony. was this, that the kings Book should he true, and faultless. And therefore God commanded him to take a Copy thereof, out of the registry, or Records, which were thought to be void of all corruption, and were evermore kept in the Temple, under the Custody of the Priests. Paulus Phagius saith, Every Private man was commanded to have one Book severally to himself: But the King was commanded to have two. And, for as much as the King was a Public Person, therefore God willed him to take his Copy out of the public Records of the Temple.  
Your own Hugo cardinalis saith, 
Hugo in duty. Cap. 17.  Accipiet exemplar à Sacerdotibus: non à quibussibet, sed à bonis: Vbi nihil fucatum est: nihil corruptum: He shall take his Copy of the priests: not of every Priest, what so ever: but of the good: that in the same Copy there be nothing, neither coloured, nor corrupted.  
All this, M. harding, will hardly prove your strange Conclusion, that the Priest was Superioure to the King: 
Deuteronomie. A copy. A Double.  It seemeth much better to prove the contrary, that the Priest was the Kings inferior, and his Subject, and his Clerk of Records, as being appointed to keep his Books. So S. Augustine saith, 
Augusti. Contra Faustum. Lib. 16. Cap. 21. Et in Psal. 58. Et sapè alibi.  the jews this day keep the very true Books of the Scriptures: All be it, not for their own use, but only for ours. And therefore, he saith, they be, not our Superiors, but our Servants.  
Certainly, concerning the Kings, and Priests of the Old Law, one of your own friends, whom for many causes ye may not well refuse, saith thus: In Veteri Lege Sacerdotium indignius erat Potestate Regia, & ei Subiectum: In the Old Law the priests Office was inferior to the Prince, 
johan. De paris. De potesta. Reg. et Papali. Cap. 5.  and Subject Unto him.  
ye say, If the Priest must give the Holy Scriptures to the King, then verily must he take such, as they give him: and with such meaning, as they give unto it. Yea, I trow, though they tear their robes against Christ, as Caiphas did, and cry out, He blasphemeth, yet must we by your judgement, evermore seek to them for the sense, and meaning of the Scriptures. For this is the ground, and foundation of your Divinity: The Scripture of God hath none other sense, but as it shall please the Priest to give unto it. But S. Chrysostom, speaking of the same Priests, and Bishops, from whom we have received the self same Scriptures, saith thus: 
Chrysosto. in Genesim. Homil. 9  Literae quidem Legis apud illos sunt: Sensus autem apud nos: The Letters, or words of the Scriptures are with them: but the true meaning of them is with us.  
Here you much disadvantage yourself, and, as ye say, omit, that we read, Librum Legis, whereas the Church readeth, Deuteronomium: for that, as ye say, it were too long for you, to enter into that disputation. Therefore, M. harding, we will patiently abide your leisure, unt il ye have found out the whole mystery, and considered it better. In the mean season, it shall not be good for you, to be over rank with your Commentaries, until ye better understand the Text. Certainly, the wise and learned think, that herein ye are much deceived. For, whereas the Words are these, Describet sibi Deuteronomium Legis huius, they think, that, Deuteronomium, in this place, is not put for any one certain several Book of the Five Books of Moses, as it is otherwise commonly used, but rather for a Copy, or a draft of the Whole Law. And in this sense they say, that, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, is none other, but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is to say, a Copy, or a Double. 
Questo Doppio. Le Double.  The Italian Translation hath thus, Esso si scrivera questo Doppio de la leg. The French Translation hath. Le double. Leo judas translateth it thus, Describet sibi Exemplum Legis huius: He shall write out for himself a Copy of this Law. And, for some proof hereof, it is thus written in the Book of josua: afterward josua read out of the words of the Law, both the Blessings, and the Curses, 
josua. 8.  according to every thing, that is written in the Book of the Law. And there was not one word of all the things, that Moses Commanded, but Josua read the same before the whole congregation of Israel.  
Where we allege the words of the Prophet isaiah, Kings shall be thy Fosterers, and Queens thy Nurses: ye say, Every Nurse, or Fosterer, is not above him, that is nourished. A faithful servant oftentimes fostereth his Master. Yet is not he above his Master. So loath ye are, the King should be Superioure to a Priest. And thus hanc ye brought about by your handsome Conclusions, that your Priests be the Masters, and Kings their Servants. And therefore it is discreetly noted in your Gloze, Imperator Romanus est Procurator, 
Dis. 98. Si Imperator. In Glossa.  sive Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae: The Emperor of Rome is the Steward, or bailiff of the Church of Rome.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 4. & 5.  
I say, 
The Pope a King. Moses a Priest.  besides all these things, we see by Histories, & by Examples of the best times, that good Princes ever took the Administration of Ecclesiastical matters to pertain to their duty.  
Moses, 
Exod. 32.  being a Civil Magistrate, and chief Guide of the people, both received from God, and delivered to the people all the order for Religion, and Sacrifices, and gave Aaron the Bishop a vehement, and soar rebuke for making the Golden Calf, and for suffering the Corruption of Religion.  

M. harding.  
Moses was not only a Civil Magistrate. 
‡ Untruth. For at that time he was no Priest.  but also a Priest. In that he had both offices, 
* Untruth. For it proveth the contrary. Read the Answer.  it proveth that a Priest may have both: but not contrariwise, that a King may have both For the greater may include the less, but the less can not include the greater. 
‡ Untruth, confessed by M. H. friends. For in the time of Moses Law, the Priest was inferiors to the Prince.  The office of a Priest is the highest of al. 
* Substantial Arguments, whereby to prove the Pope a King.  And Christ coming naturally of the kings line from David in the tribe of juda, yet esteemed that honour nothing in respect of that he was a Priest according to the order of Melchisedech. Therefore Melchisedech also being both Priest and King, was not yet said to be the figure of Christ so much concerning his Kingdom, 
Psal. 109.  as his Priesthood. For David said of Christ, Thou art a Priest for ever after the order of Melchtsedech. As for his Kingdom, it was included in his priests office. And therefore when we speak of Christ's Kingdom, though in every respect he be the very King in deed of all Kings, 
justinus in Dial. adversus Typh. Exod. 19 1. Pet. 2.  and Lord of all Lords: yet we assign it also to have been upon the Cross, ubiregnavit à ligno Deus, where God reigned from the wood. according to the same meaning, whereas the people of Israel were called Regnum Sacerdotale, a Priestly Kingdom: S. Peter writing to the Christians, turned the order of the words, calling the Church of Christ, Sacerdotium Regale, a kingly Priesthood. Moses was both a Priest and a Civil governor, as being a figure of Christ, who joined both together, making the tribe of juda, which was before kingly, now also to be Priestly. Therefore S. Augustine upon those words of David, Psal. 98. Moses and Aaron are in the number of his Priests, concludeth, that Moses must needs have been a Priest. 
‡ Discreetly reasoned. For all this pertaineth as well to a Simple Priest, as to the Pope.  For (saith he) if he were not a Priest, what was he? ‡ Nunquid maior sacerdote esse potuit, could he be greater than a Priest? ‡ As who should say, there is no greater dignity, than priesthood. And, seeing Moses had the greatest dignity, for he ruled all, and consecrated Aaron high Bishop, and his sons Priests, therefore himself must needs have been a Priest. 
* Lovanian Logic. Moses Consecrated Aaron: Ergo, The Pope is a King.  Now if Moses were both, and his chief office was Priesthood, it followeth by that example, that the Pope may rule temporally, but not that a King may rule spiritually. This you have gained nothing by this example.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here M. harding hath many great words of small weight. The final Conclusion, and Summa summarum is this: The Pope must needs be a King. And that he proveth, as his manner is, by these his young untiedy Arguments: Moses, being a Civil Magistrate, or a Prince, had also the Priesthood, & was a Priest: Ergo, saith he, The Pope, being a Priest, must have also the Kingdom, & be a King. And thus he peeceth these matters handsomely together, as though, what so ever were once in Moses, aught of necessity to be also in the Pope. But if a man should desire him to prove his Argument, & to make it good, and to show us, how these pieces may be framed together, I think, he would be feign to take a day. first, whether Moses were a Priest, or no, it is not certain. As for that, 
Psal. 98.  M. Harding allegeth these words of David, Moses, & Aaron in Sacerdotibus eius, he himself well knoweth, that the Hebrew word there, is doubtful, and signifieth as well a Prince, as a Priest. S. Jerome saith, unus Legis, 
The Pope is a King. Moses a Priest.  alte● Sacerdotij Regulam tenuit: Moses held the Rule of the Law: Aaron the Rule of Priesthood. Again he saith, Emisit ante faciem nostram Mosen Spiritualem Legem, & Aaron magnum Sacerdotem: God sent out before our face, Moses (not as the Priest, but as) the Spiritual Law, 
Hiero, in Psal. 98 Hierony in Micheam Cap. 6. Hugo. in Psal. 98.  and Aaron the great Priest. Even Hugo, your own doctor, touching the same words, saith thus, Moses etsi, etc. notwithstanding Moses were not a Priest, yet because he hallowed the people's prayers, etc. he was called a Priest. For in the Scriptures Great, and Noble men are called by the name of Priest. Who so listeth to know more hereof, let him read Sanctes Pagninus, David Kimchi, Nicolaus Lyra, etc.  
But, if Moses in deed were a Priest, ye should do well, M. harding, to resolve us, , whether he were a Priest borne, or else afterward made a Priest. A Priest borne, I trow, ye will not say. If ye say, he was afterward made a Priest, then tell us, by what Bishop, or other Creature was he Consecrate? At whoes hands received he Authority? When, where, & to what purpose? What Priestelike Apparel ever ware he? Or, in what Office, or ministery ever showed he himself to be a Priest? 
Hebrae. 5.  S. Paul saith, A Priest is appointed to offer up Oblations, and Sacrifices for sin. What Oblations, or Sacrifices for sin, can ye tell us, that Moses offered? If he were neither Borne a Priest, nor made a Priest, nor ever known by office to be a Priest, than was he, I trow, a very strange Priest.  
If Moses were the Highest Priest, and Head of the Church, and Aaron likewise the Highest Priest, and in so much the Head of the Church too, as well as he, than had the Church two highest Bishops, and two Heads both together: Which thing were monstrous, not only in speech, but also in Nature.  
notwithstanding, whether Moses at any one certain time were a Priest, or no, it is a matter not worthy the striving. Certain it is, that before the Law was written Kings, & Princes, and the best borne, and inheritors, & the wealthiest of the people, 
Hierony. in Qu Hebraici, in Genesim.  were ever Priests. S. Jerome saith, Hebraei tradunt, Primogenitos functos Officio Sacerdotum, & habuisse Vestimentum Sacerdotale: quo induti, Deo Victimas offerebant, antequam Aaron in Sacerdotium eligeretur: The Hebrewe Rabbins say, that the first borne children did the office of the Priests, and had the Priestelike Apparel, and wearing the same, offered up their Sacrifices unto God, until the time, 
Hierony. in job. Cap. 1.  that Aaron was chosen into the priesthood. Again he saith, Privilegium Offerendi Primogenitis, vel maximè Regibus debebatur: The Privilege of offering up Sacrifices was dew to the First borne of the children, but most of all unto Kings. The Heathen Roman Emperors, 
Dist. 10. De Capitulis, in Gloss. Inter acta Gelasijs.  as Vespasianus, Traianus, and others, to increase their Majesty towards their Subjects, beside the state of the Emprere, would also be called Pontifices Maximi.  
Therefore we will grant M. Harding, seeing he hath taken so much pains, about a matter not worthy so long talk, that Moses for some little short time was a Priest. 
Exod. 29.  Yet, nevertheless had he no Ordinary Priesthood: neither was he a Priest more, then for the space of two, or three hours, only until he had Consecrated Aaron, and his children: & no longer. Immediately afterward, all this great priesthood was at an end. One of your own Doctors, M. harding, saith thus, 
Heruaeus, de Potestat. pp. Ca 18.  Non erant Sacerdotes Legales, Dignitate, & Officio, sicut Aaron: Licet in necessitate, & propter defectum Sacerdotum, aliquos actus Sacerdotum fecerint: ut, quòd Moses inunxit Aaron: propter quod Moses Sacerdos dicitur in Psalmo: The Firstborne were not Priests in Office, and Dignity, as Aaron was: notwithstanding, in case of necessity, and for lack of Priests, they did some part of the priests Office: as, that Moses anointed, or Consecrated Aaron: for which thing Moses in the Psalm is called a Priest.  
This, 
The Pope is a King.  M. harding, is that foundation, that must needs bear the burden of your whole Church of Rome. The Pope, ye say, must be a King, because Moses was both Prince, and Priest. And yet your own Fellows say, Moses by Office, and Dignity, was never Priest. ye say, The Pope, being a Bishop, may be a King: But of the other side, a King may in no wise be a Bishop: & thus, either unwitingely, or willingly, ye seem to overthrow your own Position. For the Example, that ye ground upon, of Aaron, and Moses, proveth quite the contrary. For Moses, being a Prince, did also the Office of a Bishop. But Aaron, being the Bishop, did never the Office of a Prince. Therefore hereof ye might better Conclude, the a Prince may be a Bishop: But a Bishop may not be a King. Straighten your bolts therefore, M. Harding, & shave them better, before ye so suddenly, I will not say, so rudely, shoot them from you. Nevertheless, ye say, the Priesthood, which is the more, may contain the Kingdom, being the less. In this respect, I trow, 
Extra. De Maiorita & Obedien. Solitae, In Glossa.  your Gloze, as it is said before, compareth the Pope to the Son, and the Emperor to the Moon: & findeth out substantially by good Geometrical Proportion, that the Pope is just seven and fifty times greater, than the Emperor. How be it, your own Doctors say, as I have likewise showed before, that in the Law of Moses, 
johan. De Paris. De potestat. Regia & Pap ca 5.  the Prince was greater than the Priest.  
That ye allege of the Priesthood, and Kingdom of Christ, serveth you to small purpose. For, I beseech you, what Crown, what Sceptre, what sword bore Christ? What Ecclesiastical Priesthood had he, but only, that he executed upon the Cross? Verily touching any Civil show, or outward Office, as he was no King, 
johan. 18.  so was he no Priest. As he said, My Kingdom is not of this world: So might he also have said, My Priesthood is not of this world. Otherwise, he was both King, & Priest, in Power, & Virtue: but not apparently in outward office.  
One of your Fellows saith thus, 
Heruaeus de Potestat. Pp. Cap. 8.  Pater, per Sanctos Expositores, quòd Christus non habuit in Temporalibus Authoritatem, vel judicium. Sed dare potuit, & dare habuit Virtutis Documentum: It appeareth by the Holy Expositors, that Christ had neither Authority, nor judgement in things Temporal. But he could both give, and had to give Instructions of Virtue.  
As for these two words of S. 
1. Pet. 2.  Peter, Ye are a kingly Priesthood, ye would not have alleged them to this purpose, had ye not been in your dream. For think you, that S. Peter called the whole Body of the Church of Christ, a kingly Priesthood, for that you fancy your Pope to be together both Priest, and King? Certainly, the Church of God was a kingly Priesthood, before either the Church of Rome was a Church, or the Pope of Rome was a Pope. Ye should have some care to deal more reverently with the Word of God: For it is Holy. S. Peter's meaning is this, that every Faithful Christian man is now, after a Spiritual, or Ghostly meaning, not only a Priest, but also a King: and therefore he calleth the whole Church a kingly Priesthood. Tertullian saith thus, 
Tertul. in Exhorta. ad Castit. Apocal. 1.  Nónne & Laici Sacerdotes sumus? Regnum quoqque nos, & Sacerdotes Deo, & Patri suo fecit: And we, that be Laiemen, are we not Priests? Truly Christ hath made even us a kingdom, and Priests unto his Father. S. Augustine saith, 
Aug. Q evang. Lib. 2. Cap. 40.  Hoc Sacerdotio Regali consecrantur omnes pertinentes ad Corpus Christi, Summi, & Veri Principis Sacerdotum: With this Royal Priesthood all they are consecrate, that pertain to the Body of Christ, which is the high, and true Prince of Priests. 
Augu. De Civit. Dei Li. 20. Ca 10 Ambros. in Lucan. Lib. 5. ap 6.  Again he saith, Omnes sunt Sacerdotes, quia Membra sunt unius Sacerdotis: All be Priests, because they are the Members of one Priest. S. Ambrose saith, Omnes filii Ecclesiae Sacerdotes sunt: All the Children of the Church be Priests.  
S. Jerome saith, Genus Sacerdotale, & Regale sumus omnes, qui Baptizati in Christo, 
Hierony. in Malachi. Cap. 1.  Christi censemur Nomine: All we are that priestly, and kingly Kindred, 
The Pope is a king. kingly priesthood.  that being baptized in Christ, are called Christians, by the name of Christ.  
Chrysostom saith, Et tu in Baptismo, & Rex efficeris, & Sacerdos, & Propheta: Even thou in thy Baptism art made both a King, and a Priest, and a Prophet.  
Now, M. harding, let us take the ulewe of your priestly Conclusions.  
Moses once did one part of the bishops Office, 
Chrysost. 2. Cor. Homil. 3.  to Consecrate Aaron, & his children: & that▪ never at any time else▪ neither after, nor before: Christ Rath a Spiritual Priesthood, & a Spiritual Kingdom: for otherwise Ordinary Priesthood, and earthily Kingdom he had none: S. Peter calleth the whole Church of Christ, a kingly Priesthood: Ergo, say you, The Pope beareth both the Office of a Priest, and also the Right, and State of an Earthly King.  
To dissemble all other the fond weakness of these follies, Christ himself saith to the Pope, 
Matth. 20.  and to all other Priests, and Bishops: The Kings of Nations rule over them: and they, that are great, exercise Authority over the people: But it shall not be so amongst you. 
Dist. 10. Quoniam idem.  S. Cyprian saith, as he is alleged by Gratian, Christus actibus proprijs, & Dignitatibus distinctis officia Potestatis utriusque discrevit: Christ by several duties, and distinct honours, hath set a difference between the Offices of both Powers.  
Whereupon your own Gloze saith, Hic est Argumentum, quòd Papa non habet utrunque Gladium: 
Glossa.  Here is a good Argument, that the Pope hath not both Swords.  
S. bernard saith thus unto Pope Eugenius, 
Bernar. De Considera. Lib. 2.  Planun est, quòd Apostolis interdicitur Dominatus. Ergo tu tibi usurpare aude, aut Dominans Apostolatum, aut Apostolicus Dominatum. Planè ab alterutro prohiberis. Si Vtrunque similiter habere vis, perdes utrunque Alioqui ne te putes exceptum illorum numero, de quibus conqueritur Dominus, dicens: Ipsi regnaverunt, & non ex me: It is plain, that Temporal Dominion is forbidden the Apostles. Now therefore, thou, being Pope, dare to usurp, either the Apostleship, being a Prince: or the princehood, being the successor of the Apostles. doubtless from the one of them thou art forbidden. If thou wilt indifferently have both, thou shalt lose both. Otherwise think not, thou canst be excepted from the mimber of them, of whom the Lord complaineth, They have made themselves kings, and not by me.  
Concerning the place of S. Peter, one of your company saith, it nothing furthereth the Pope's Kingdom. 
Heruaeus, de Potestat. Pp. Ca 18.  Thus he saith, Sacerdotium dicitur Regale, à Regno, non huius mundi, sed Coeli: S. Peter calleth us a kingly Priesthood, of the Kingdom of Heaven, not of the Kingdom of this world. Yet is this the self same Kingdom, that the Pope craveth, & that by the Authority of S. Peter.  
notwithstanding one of your company there, hath sent us home lately other news from Louvain. 
Dorman. Fol. 40.  His words be these: Vos estis regal Sacerdotium, You are a Kingly Priesthood: as who should say, the Priesthood before, was not Kingly, for that then Kings ruled over Priests: But now is the Priesthood kingly, for that to it be subject even Kings themselves. Thus, unless your Priests may rule Kings, & Princes, & all the world at their pleasure, ye think, they have no Kingly Priesthood. In the Council, 
Conc. Macrense. Citatur ab Illyrico inter Testes Verita. Pag. 121.  holden at Macra in France, it is written thus: Solus Dominus noster jesus Christus verè fieri potuit & Rex, & Sacerdos. Post Incarnationem verò, & Resurrectionem, & Ascensionem eius in Coelum, nec Rex Pontificis Dignitatem: nec Pontifex Regiam Potestatem sibi usurpare praesumpsit: Only our Lord jesus Christ might truly be both Priest, and King. But since his Incarnation, and Resurrection, and Ascension into heaven, neither hath the King presumed to take upon him the Dignity, or office of a Bishop, nor hath the Bishop presumed to usurp the Power, and Majesty of a Prince.  
To be short, M. harding, we say not, as you so often, & so untruly have reported, that the King may in any wise execute the Bishops Office. But thus we say, and because it is true, therefore we say it: The King may lawfully correct, 
josua.  and chastise the Negligence, & falsehood of the Bishops: and that in so doing, he doth only his own Office, and not the Bishops.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 6.  
josua also, 
josua. Cap. 1.  though he were none other, than a Civil Magistrate, yet as soon as he was choose by God, and set as a Ruler over the people, he received Commandments, specially touching Religion, and the Service of God.  

M. harding.  
There is no doubt, but joshua received commission, and commandment to worship God, but none to rule Priests in spiritual matters. 
Num. 27.  Ye rather he was commanded to go forth, and come in at the voice and word of Eleazarus the high Priest, he and all the Children of Israel. Do not these men prove their matter handsomely?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
josua was commanded to go in, and out, and to be directed by the voice of Eleazarus the High Priest: Therefore, ye say, in Spiritual Causes, the Priests may not be controlled by the Prince. ye deliver out your Arguments, M. harding, before they be ready. These pieces would have been better tied together.  
Though the Prince be commanded to hear the Priest, yet if the Priest be negligent, or deceive the people, he may by his Ordinary Authority control the Priest.  
When Aaron, the High Priest, had consented to the making, and worshipping of the Golden Calf, 
Exod. 32.  Moses, being then the Temporal Prince, rebuked him sharply unto his face: and in so doing, did not the bishops Office, but only his own. As touching josua, whom ye would feign have restrained from all Ecclesiastical Causes, he caused the people to be Circumcised: He caused Altars for their Bloody Sacrifices to be erected: He caused the Priests to make their Sacrifices: He caused the Deuteronomie to be written in stones: He caused both the Blessings, and the Curses of God to be pronounced: He spoke openly to the people, and frayed them from Idolatry. All these were cases, not of Civil Policy, 
August. Contra Cresconium, Li. 3. Cap. 51.  but of Religion. S. Augustine saith, In hoc Reges Deo serviunt, sicut eis Divinitùs praecipitur, in quantum sunt Reges, si in suo Regno bona iubeant, mala prohibeant: non solùm quae pertinent ad Humanam Societatem, verùm etiam, quae ad Divinam Religionem: Herein Kings serve God, as it is commanded them from above, in that they be Kings, if within their Kingdom they command good things, and forbid evil: not only in things pertaining to humane Feloweship, or Civil Order, but also in things pertaining to God's Religion. ye may see therefore, M. harding, how handsomely so ever we prove our matters, that▪ of your part, hitherto they are but unhandsomely, & coarsely answered.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 7.  
King David, when the whole Religion of God was altogether brought out of frame by wicked King Saul, 
1. Paralip. 13.  brought home again the Ark of God, that is to say, he restored Religion again: and was not only amongst them himself, as a counsellor, and furtherer of the work, but he appointed also Hymns, and Psalms, put in order the companies, and was the only doer in setting forth that whole Solemn Triumph, and in effect ruled the Priests.  

M. harding.  
As David restored all things to good order, 
King David ordereth matters of Religion.  after the evil King Saul, 
* An ill comparison. For that the one set up, the other pluck down.  so did Queen Marie redress disorders before committed. 
1. Paral. 15.  But as Queen Marie did it by the mean of Priests, so King David in priestly matters called for Sadoch, and Abiathar. In deed David passed other Princes herein, because he had the 
‡ A simple shift God wot. For other Kings, that did the like, were no Prophets.  gift of Prophecy, whereby he wrote Psalms, which to this day we sing. But all this maketh nothing to prove him judge of Spiritual matters. He did not usurp the Authority to Sacrifice, to discern the leper, and to do the like things of Priestly charge.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
King David, ye say, restored Religion by mean of the Priests. Nay, verily, M. harding: for by mean of the Priests, the Religion utterly was decayed. Therefore ye spoil that Most Noble Prince of his worthy praises: and give them to others, that never deserved them. The Holy Tabernacle was broken, and lost: the Ark of God was kept, not in the Temple, but in a Private man's house: the people had no common place to resort unto, to hear Goddess Will: they had each man his own Private chaple in their Hills, and groves.  
David therefore called the Bishops, & Priests together: He showed them, in what sort the Religion of God was defaced: he willed them to bring the Ark into Zion: he was present himself: he appointed, and ordered the whole Triumph: He assigned, 
1. Paralipom. 16. 1. Paralipom. 24.  which of the Levites, and in what order they should serve before the Ark: He allotted Aaron's Children, which were the Priests, to walk each man in his several office.  
So likewise it is written of King Solomon, touching the same: King Solomon, according to the decree, 
2. Paralipom. 8.  and order of his Father David, appointed the Offices of the Priests in their several ministries, and the Levites, each man in his Order: that they should praise God, and minister before the Priests. For so David, the man of God, had commanded. 
2 Paralipom. 19  Likewise it is written of King josaphat, He appointed, and ordered the Levites, and Priests.  
Thus then did these godly Princes: and thus doing, they usurped not the bishops office, but only did that, they lawfully might do, and appertained wholly unto themselves.  
Where ye say, David was a Prophet, and not only a King, as though he had done these things by the virtue of his prophesy, and not by the right of his Princely Power, this poor shift is very simple. For notwithstanding King David were a Prophet, yet King josaphat, & other Princes, that did the like, were no Prophets: neither do we read of any other Prophet, that ever attempted to do the like: nor did David these things, as a Prophet, but as a King.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 8.  
King Solomon built unto the Lord the Temple, which his Father David had but purposed in his mind to do: 
2. Paral. 6.  and after the finishing thereof, he made a godly Oration to the people, concerning Religion, and the Service of God: 
3. Reg. 8.  He afterward displaced Abiathar the Priest, and set Sadok in his place.  

M. harding.  
salomon's building of the Temple, 
3. Reg. 2.  and praying therein proveth no Supremacy over the Priests in Spiritual thinges● His putting of Abiathar out of his dignity and room, 
* Untruth. For what Superior bishops Authority used Solomon in the Deposition of Abiathar?  was like to that Queen Marie did to Cranmere. 
King Solomon Judgeth in Spiritual cases.  Whom she might have removed for treason, as Solomon laid the like to Abiathar: yet she chose rather to burn him for Heresy. But this proveth 
‡ Untruth manifest. Read the Answer.  only an our ward execution of justice, without any prejudice to the Substance of our question: Which is, whether a temporal Prince may determine the causes of Religion, or no.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The deposing of Abiathar, ye say, was only the execution of outward justice: like to that, Queen Marie did to doctor Craumere the archbishop of Canturburie. Wherein ye show yourself to be much overseen. For these comparisons are in no wise like. Solomon, by his Princely Authority, lawfully deposed the High Priest Abiathar: But Queen Marie deposed not, nor could she by your Canonnes lawfully depose the archbishop of Canturburie: nor do you think it in any case lawful, that a Bishop should be deposed by a Prince. For, Deposition, ye say, is a Spiritual po●nishement, and only belongeth unto a Bishop. And your Law saith, Eius est Destituere, cuius est Instituere: He may Depose a Priest, that hath Authority to place a Priest. Therefore these two Princes doings were not like. But, touching the High Priest Abiathar, King Solomon summoned him to appear before him: King Solomon sat in judgement, and heard the Accusations, wherewith he was charged: King Solomon pronounced Sentence against him: King Solomon deposed him: King Solomon appointed Sadoch to succeed him. It all this be not sufficient, over and besides these things, 
2. Parali. 5. 6. 7. 8.  King Solomon placed the Ark of God: King Solomon Sanctified, and Hallowed the Temple: King Solomon offered up burnt Sacrifice: King Solomon directed, and ordered the Priests in their several Offices: King Solomon blessed the whole people. 
2. Paralip. 8.  And, as it is written, The Priests, and Levites leaftes nothing undone, of all, that was commanded them by the King. If these cases be not Spiritual, tell us then, what cases may be allowed for Spiritual? Thus the Godly King Solomon thought it lawful for him, to deal, not only in matters of Temporal Government, but also in Ecclesiastical, or Spiritual cases of Religion. Therefore, M. harding, it is but a teie, that ye tell us of the execution of outward justice.  
Concerning that most Grave, and Godly, and Learned Father, the archbishop of Canturburie, with whom ye did, what so ever your pleasure was, God grant, his blood be never required at your hands.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 9  
After this, when the Temple of God was in shameful wise polluted through the naughtiness, 
2. Paral. 29.  and negligence of Priests, King Ezechias commanded the same to be cleansed from the double and filth, the Priests to light up candles, to burn Incense, and to do their Divine Service, according to the old allowed custom. The same King also commanded the Brazen Serpent, 
4. Reg. 18.  which then the people wickedly worshipped, to be taken down, and beaten to powder.  

M. harding.  
How often shall I tell you, that this proveth no more, but that good Kings do good deeds, maintain true Religion, and pull down the false, as the Constable of France burned the Pu●pites of the Huguenots in Paris? But these facts prove not, that Kings and Constables be judges of Religion, which is good, 
Ezechias.  and which is evil: 
4. Reg. 20. 4. Reg. 9  which true, which false: For therein they 
* Untruth. For the Priests did nothing, but against their wills. Read the Answer.  follow the judgement and advise of Priests, and Prophets, who ●e about them, as 
‡ This is far from the purpose. For Esaias, and Elizaeus neither were Priests, no● had the execution of Priestly Offices.  Esaias was at hand with good King Ezechias to direct his doings: and so was Elizaeus with King jehu.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
King Ezechias, ye say, and other Kings followed the advise, and judgement of the Priests, and Prophets. This tale, M. harding, is not only unlikely, but also untrue. For ye know, that Esaias, and Elizaeus, notwithstanding they were the Prophets of God, yet were they neither Priests, nor Bishops, nor had any manner of Ordinary Ministration in the Church. The Bishops, and Priests, of whom ye speak, had disordered, and wasted Gods whole Religion. The Holy place of God was full of filthiness: the Gates of the Temple were shut up, 
2. Paralip. 29.  that no man might enter in: The people had turned away their faces from the Tabernacle of the Lord: There was no Incense: There was no Sacrifice. All these things had happened through the negligence, and wickedness of the Priests. 
2. Paralip. 30.  In the Old Latin Text it is written thus: Sacerdotes, & levitae tandem Sanctificati obtulerunt Holocausta: The Priests, and Levites, at the last, or with much ado, were Sanctified, and offered up Sacrifices. Upon which place the Later Translation saith thus: Sacerdotes, & levitae pudore suffusi, Sanctificaverunt se: The Priests, and Levites, even for very shame, Sanctified themselves. So ready were they, to call upon, and to further the King in his godly purpose. They held back, what they could, and yielded to nothing, but with much ado, and for very shame. They did nothing, but by the kings Commandment: and made him a reckoning of their doings.  
How be it, perhaps ye will discharge this whole matter with one ordinary excuse, and tell us, that all these were but Temporal Cases.    

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 10.  
King jehosaphat overthrew, and utterly made away the Hill Altars, 
1. Paralip. 17.  & groves, whereby he saw God's Honour hindered, and the people holden back with Private Superstition from the ordinary Temple, which was at jerusalem: whereto they should by ordre have resorted yearly from every part of the Realm.  

M. harding.  
Ye put us in mind to consider, how that yourselves are those Private Hill Altars, and dark groves. For ye be they, that stop the people from the common Temple of Christendom, the Catholic Church: out of which is no Salvation, the head whereof sitteth in Peter's chair at Rome. For setting order both in matters of Common Weal, and others, jehosaphat said thus, concerning Religion: Amarias' Sacerdos & pontifex vester in ijs, 
2. Par. 19  quae ad Deum pertinent, praesidebit: Amarias' the Priest and High Bishop for such matters as pertain to God, he shall be head over you.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
All this whole matter, touching as well King jehosophat, as also Amarias' the High Priest, is answered in that is passed before.   

The Apology, Cap. 11. Division. 11.  
King josias with great diligence put the Priests, & Bishops in mind of their duties: 
4. Reg. 12. 4. Reg. 10.  King johas bridled the Riot, and Arrogancy of the Priests: jehu put to death the wicked Prophets.   

M. harding.  
The putting of Priests, 
losias. johas. jehu.  and Bishops in mind of their duty, is not a Supremacy in determining Ecclesiastical causes. And whereas you say, that King joas bridled the r●ot, and arrogancy of the Priests, if it were so, it was well done. But 
* Ye might have found it, 4 Reg. Ca 12.  I find not those words in the text. Concerning that jehu did, it is a 
‡ But he judged them, and condemned them for False prophets. This was no mere Temporal office.  mere temporal Office, to put false preachers, and Heretics to death. Neither can it belong to Priests, unless they have also civil jurisdiction. Much less doth that act prove, that Kings be Supreme heads over the Church, and aught to be judges in controversies and questions of Religion.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Concerning the story of King johas, I report me to that is written of him in the Book of Kings. 
4. Regum. 12.  He sequestered the Oblations of the people, which the Priests had bestowed lewdly, and wanton upon themselves, and, by his own Authority, turned the same to the Reparations of the Temple. Of King josias, 
2. Paralipom. 35.  it is written thus: Constituit Iosias Sacerdotes in officijs suis: King josias appointed thee Priests to minister in their several Offices. And again, Mundavit judam, & Jerusalem ab Excelsis, & Lucis: King josias cleansed, and rid juda, and Jerusalem from their Hill Altars, and their groves.  
But ye will say, He did all things by the discretion of the Priests, & Bishops. This thing in deed is necessary, while the Priests, and Bishops be, learned, and godly. 
4. Regum. 21.  But King josias did far otherwise: for he sent the Bishop himself unto Olda the prophetess, to learn the discretion, and judgement of a Woman: and so was directed in matters of Highest Religion, by a Woman, and not by a Priest. These Examples be so manifest, that one of your Fellows there is feign thus to excuse the matter, 
Dorman. Fol. 37.  by over much Antiquity. If we would in these days, saith he, use in all points the Examples of the Old Law, there would follow an huge number of inconveniences. 
Dorman. Fol. 39  It is no good reason, to say, that therefore our Kings now a days must have the like Authority. Thus saith he, As though the Prince's right were now abated, and altered, as the Ceremonies of the Law: & were otherwise now, than it was before: Or, as if the Coming of Christ into the world, and the preaching of the Gospel, had purposely been to repress and pull down the State of Kings.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 1.  
And, to rehearse no more Examples out of the Old Law, let us rather consider sithence the Birth of christ, how the church hath been governed in the time of the Gospel.  

M. harding.  
If we consider the Office of a King in itself, it is 
* Even so I●ppiter, or Baa●s Bishop, was as well a Bishop, as the Bishop of Rome.  one every where, not only among Christian Princes, but also among Heathen. * The definition of a King, which agreeth to julius Cesar, or to Alexander the Great, as they were monarch, and Princes, is one with the definition of a King which agreeth to Henry the Eight, or to Charles the fifth. 
‡ Neither can the Pope meddle more with Religion, than Annas, or Ca●phas.  So that no more could King Henry as King, meddle with Religion, than Alexander, or julius Cesar. * His place is chief among the lay, even when they are in the Church at the Service of God: and 
* Untruth▪ For if the Bishop had offended, he was sub●ecte to the Prince, as well within the Church, a● without.  without the Church in all Temporal things and causes, he is over the Priests themselves.  
And because all these examples are taken out of the Old Testament, I will give thee a true resolution out of the same Book, what authority Priests had, and what authority Kings had. Moses gave this rule, 
Deut▪ 17.  concerning the same matter. If (saith he) thou perceive an hard, and doubtful judgement to be with thee between blood and blood, cause and cause, Lepre and Lepre, and seest the words of the judges within thy gates to vary, arise, and go up to the place, which thy Lord God shall choose, 
The Prince a ludge in Ecclesiastical causes.  and thou shalt come to the Priests of the stock of Levi, and to the judge that shall be for the time, and thou shalt demand of them: who shall show the truth of judgement to thee.  
But neither the Priest by this place may meddle with that jurisdiction, which belonged to the Temporal judge, neither the judge with that which was spiritual and belonging only to the Priest. 
1. Paral. 26.  For of such causes Azarias the Priest and Bishop said to King Ozias, It is not thy office, Ozias, to burn incense unto our Lord. It is the office of the Priests: That is to say, of the Sons of Aaron: Who are consecrated to do such ministries. But this the King might do even in matters of Religion. 
* The Prince is Executioner to the Priest.  When the High Priest had given sentence, he might see the execution thereof to be done. But 
‡ Untruth evident. Read the Answer.  otherwise what so ever King or Temporal judge might not do in his own person, ‡ much less might he judge, whether an other did well therein, or no. And this concerning the Old Testament.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Office of a King, ye say, was no more in King Henry the Eighth, or in Charles the fifth, than it was in the Heathen Princes, julius Caesar, or Alexander the Great. And therefore, ye say, a Christian Princes Office standeth only in Matters Temporal: and for that cause ye so often call him a Mere, Lay, Temporal Prince: as if he were in Authority not much better, than an Heathen Magistrate.  
Even so, M. Harding, is your Pope no more a Bishop, or perhaps, much less a Bishop, than Annas, and Caiphas: Neither is your Priest more a Priest, than the Priest of Dagon, or Baal. The difference standeth, not in Office, but only in Truth. Yet nevertheless, ye know, that Heathen Princes had evermore a Sovereign Authority, not only over their Priests, and Bishops, but also over all Cases of Religion. 
Aristotel. Foliticor. Li. 3. Socrates, Lib. 5. in Prooemio. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Aristotle saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: The King, that is Lord, and Ruler of things, that pertain unto the Gods.  
And therefore Socrates in his story saith, Imperatores unà complexi sumus, etc. We have also herein comprised the emperors Lives, for that, sithence the Emperors were first Christened, the affairs of the Church have hanged of them, and the greatest Councils both have been, and are kept by their advise.  
Ye say, The Prince in doubtful Cases was commanded to take Counsel of the Highest Priest. This is true. But will ye conclude hereof, that the Highest Priest may say, & do, what he listeth, without controlment? What if the High Priest would answer thus, as he answered sommetime in deed, This Christ is a Samaritane, a deceiver of the people, and hath a Devil? What if he tear his own robes for anger, and cry out, He Blasphemeth: he is worthy to die? Yet must the Emperor needs give ear unto him, and believe him without exception? Certainly, in the Old Law, if the Bishop either had been negligent in his Office, or of malice, or ignorance had answered untruth, he was evermore under the General controlment of the Prince.  
Within the Church, ye say, the Prince is inferior to the Priest: notwithstanding, without the Church he is in Temporal cases above the Priest. Thus ye fetch your matter round, within, without, and round about, with all the Circumstances: as if Princes were as changeable, as yourself: and would be other without, than they are within.  
In deed, in that the Priest doth his Office, in that he either openeth God's Will, or declareth his threats, or rebuketh sin, or Excommunicateth, and cutteth of a dead member from the Body, so far forth the Prince, be he never so mighty, is inferior unto him. But in this respect the Prince is infertoure, not only to the Pope, or Bishop, but also to any other simple Priest: And the Pope himself, 
The Prince is a ludge in Ecclesiastical causes.  in this respect, is inferior to his confessor, be he never so poor a Priest. So the Emperor Constantinus was wont to say to the godly Bishops: Be you Bishops within the Church: and I willbe Bishop without. But if the Bishop had been faulty, either in Negligence, or in Falsehedde, whether he had been within the Church, 
9 Quaest. 3. Nemo, in Gloss. Abb. Euseb. De vita Constant. Orat. 4 De Maiorita & Obedient. unam Sanctam.  or abroad, he was always to be controlled by the Prince.  
Ye say, When the High Priest had geeven Sentence, the Prince might see the Execution thereof to be done. And thus ye make the Emperor the Pope's man, to put his Sentence in Execution. So Pope Bonifacius S. telleth you, Materialis Gladius exercendus est manu Regum, & Militum, sed ad nutum, & Patientiam Sacerdotis: The Temporal Sword must be drawn by the hand of Kings, and Soldiers: but at the beck, and sufferance of the Priest.  
But, I beseehe you, at whose beck did King Solomon depose Abiathar the High Priest? At whose beck did josias, and other godly Princes, of whom we have said before, redress the Religion of God, which they found shamefully decaled? At whose beck did they rebuke the careless negligence of the Priests? Verily, 
Heruaeus De Potestate Papae, Cap. 18. Augustin. Epist. 166. add Donatistas'.  one of your own Doctors saith, In Veteri Lege Sacerdotes, qui Reges inungebant, indubitanter Regibus subdebantur: In the Old Law, the Bishops, that anointed the Kings, out of doubt were subject unto the Kings.  
And S. Augustine saith, Quando Imperatores Veritatem tenent, & ipsa Veritate contra Errotem iubent, quisquis illud contempserit, ipse sibi judicium acquirit. Name & inter homines poenas juit, & apud Deum frontem non habebit, qui hoc facere noluit, quod ei per Cor Regis ipsa Veritas jussit: When the Emperor holdeth the Truth, and by force of the same Truth giveth out Laws, and Proclamations against error, who so ever despiseth the same, procureth judgement against himself. For he shallbe punished before men, and before God he shall have no face, that refused to do that thing, that the Truth itself, through the heart of the Prince, hath commanded him.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 2.  
The Christian Emperors in the old time, appointed thee Councils of the Bishops. Constantine called thee Council at Nice: Theodosius the first, called thee Council at Constantinople: Theodosius the second, the council at Ephesus: Martian, the Council at Chalcedon.  

M. harding.  
The calling or summoninge of Councils may be done 
* A discrete Distinction: As if the Emperor received his Authority from the Pope.  either by way of authority, which the caller himself hath: or by way of authority, which he taketh of another. If Constantine, the two Theodosians, and Marcian called the four first general Councils by their Authority only, then were they no general Councils. Neither could their decrees bind the whole world. For although they were great Emperors, yet was not the whole Christian world under them. And therefore those Christian Bishops, who lived in Persia, in Ethiopia, in Scotland, in Scythia, or in any other land not subject to the Emperor, were neither bound to come, nor bound to obey the Laws made by them, who were not their Superiors. But if it be far from reason, that a general Council should not bind all Bishops and all Christians, it is also far reason, to say, that Emperors called general Councils by their own only authority. In deed they called them by the assent of the Bishop of Rome 
‡ Untruth manifest, as it shall appear.  Who being the general shepherd of Christ's stock, and therefore also of all Bishops, might command 
* All the bishops througout the whole world are the Pope's Sheep.  all his Sheep to come together, except they were reasonably to be excused: and they were bound to be hear his voice, and to obey his decree. So that, although ye proved the Emperors to have summoned and called the four first Counsels, yet were ye not able to prove, they did it 
‡ Untruth. For the Emperor may summon Counsels whether the Pope will, or no.  without the assent of the Bishops of Rome, which for the time sat in Peter's chair. And by the force of that assent the deed must take effect. And this much generally.  
Now to prove unto you, that 
* Untruth. For Sylvester was dead long before the summoninge of the Council.  S. Sylvester assented to the calling of the first Council at Nice, it is to be considered, that he only hath authority to ratify, who hath authority to command, and to give assent and strength from the beginning. For none other difference is between commanding, assenting, auctorizinge, and ratifying, but that assenting is common to them all, commanding is a thing that goeth before the fact, auctorizinge is the making of a thing good by present agreeing to it, whiles it is done, ratifying is the allowing of it, when it is done. If then I show, both that the Pope did ratify the calling of the general Counsels, and auctorize them: I show much more that he assented to the calling of them. The auctorizinge is proved, by reason he sent his Legates to every of them. As 
‡ Untruth, vain, and unadvised. For neither was Hosius Syluesters Legate, nor was Sylvester then alive.  S. Sylvester sent Osius Cordubensis of the province of Spain unto Nice, with Victor and Vincentius, Pr●estes of the City of Rome. Of which the last two, being themselves no Bishops, yet for that they were Legates of the chief Bishop, did in 
* Untruth impudent. For they had the fourth place in the Council, and subscribed after Eustathius.  the first place put unto the decrees of that council their consent and names, writing after thus sort: Pro venerabili vito Papa & Episcopo nostro Syluestro subscripsimus: We have subscribed for the reverent man our Pope and Bishop Sylvester. And at the very 
‡ Untruth. unless a dead man may Summon Councils.  same time, that the general council was kept at Nice, S. Sylvester called an other Council in Rome, at the which two hundred seventy and five Bishops were assembled. And it is expressly written in the same Council, Sylvester collegit universam Synodum Episcoporum cum consilio Augusti, vel matris eius: Sylvester gathered together the whole Synod of the Bishops with the Counsel of the 
* By the Counsel of the Emperor, or of his Mother: wisely: He woteth not whether. And yet the emperors Mother was dead before: Sozom. Lib. 2. Ca 2. &. 3.  Emperor or * his mother. Why his counsel was needful, it appeareth there. Because the Emperor bore the charges of their diet, and carriage. So that his counsel was necessary, not chiefly for Religion, but rather for supportation of the charges of so great a journey. For than neither was the Bishop of Rome, nor other Bishops endued with so large possessions, as they were afterward.  
Now to return to the Council of Nice. The Emperor was in deed the cause of their coming together, aswell for that himself persuaded that mean of concord, as also for that liberally, he defrayed the charges. Yet called he not the Bishops of his own head. And that these men might have seen in the Ecclesiastical History, 
Lib. 10. ca 1. Mark, ex sacerdotum sententia.  where Rufinus writeth: Tum ille ex Sacerdotum sententia apud urbem Nicaeam Episcopale concilium convocat: Then the Emperor calleth together a Council of Bishops according to the determination of the Priests. He did it according as it seemed 
‡ Full Clerkely proved. For Ruffinus saith, The Emperor herein followed the advise of Alexander the Bishop of Alexandria, etc. But of the Pope there is no mention.  good to the Bishops. ‡ And shall we think the Bishop of Rome was none of them that consented to the calling? ‡ The as verily he was the chiefest of al. How can it otherwise seem? For when all the decrees were made, 
In sum. Nice. Concil.  Placuit ut haec omnia mitterentur ad Episcopum urbis Romae Syluestrum: It was thought good, that all those acts, and decrees should be sent to 
* Untruth sondly forged. For Sylvester was dead long before.  Sylvester Bishop of the City of Rome. If he were the last, that had the view and confirming of all things, there is no doubt, but he had a voice and great authority in calling the Council.  
What other is that, which Socrates in his Ecclesiastical History witnesseth, saying, Cum utique regula Ecclesiastica iubeat, non oportere 
‡ Untruth, standing in plain corruption of the words. See the Answer.  praeter sententiam Romani Pontisicis ‡ concilia celebrari: Whereas the Ecclesiastical rule commandeth, ‡ that no counsels ought to be kept besides the determinate consent of the Bishop of Rome? We know (saith Athanasius, and the Bishops of Egypt assembled in Council at Alexandria) that in the great council of Nice of 318 Bishops, 
Hist. trip. li. 4. ca 9 Epistola Aegyptior. pontificum. Ruf. Li. 10. cap. a. Hist. trip. Li. 7. ca 12.  it was with one accord by all confirmed there, that without the determination of the Bishop of Rome, neither counsels should be kept, nor Bishops condemned. I omit here as a thing well known, how Constantine the Emperor refused in express words, to be judge over Bishops, saying, that God had given them power to judge of him: much less did he arrogate to himself only and chief authority to summon counsels, or to judge Bishoply affairs. As for me (saith Valentinian the Emperor) in as much as I am but one of the people, it is not lawful to search such matters: (he speaketh of the Heretics Doctrines) but let the Priests, to whom this charge belongeth, be gathered together within themselves, where they will, etc.  
Concerning the second Council, which was the first of those that were kept at Constantinople, it may be, that Theodosius called it, as Constantine called the first at Nice. But what authority Damasus bore in the same, it appeareth partly by that he had his 
* So had sundry other Bishops.  Legates there, partly also by that Photius Patriarch of Constantinople writeth in his Epistle to Michael Prince of Bulgaria. Where having declared the coming together of the patriarchs of Alexandria, and jerusalem, he saith thus: 
Photius in Lib. de concilijs.  Quibus haud mult● post & Damasus Episcopus Romae eadem confirmans, atque idem sentiens accessit. To which (patriarchs of Alexandria and jerusalem) not long after, Damasus the Bishop of Rome joined himself, confirming 
‡ Other Bishops likewise gave their Consentes, and Confirmed etc. Yet had they no Authority to Summon Councils.  and determining the same matter. This much saith Photius of the second Council, the confirmation whereof he doth attribute, not to Theodosius the Emperor, but to Damasus the Pope.  
But what did Theodosius then? (will some man say). Did he nothing? yeas verily he did very much, as in the said Epistle Phot●us recordeth. Then did great Theodosius (saith he) in deed worthy of great praise rule the Empire, who was himself also a defender, and a maintainer of Godliness. Behold what the emperors part was, not to sit in judgement of matters of Religion, and 
* Untruth manifest. For Theodosius the Emperor expressly determined, what should be holden for Christian Faith.  determine, which was the true Faith, but to defend it, and maintain it. And that thou mayst see, reader, plainly, what Theodosius thought of Religion, whom these Defenders would make a judge in causes of Religion: 
Cap. 7.  I advise thee to read the ninth Book of the Tripartite History, where appear many great arguments of his own Faith: Which he publisheth to the world from Thessalonica, in a public law, to be such, as Peter had taught the Romans, 
‡ Untruth, guilefully enclosed. For Theodosius willed his Subjects, to follow as well the ●aithe of sundry other Bishops, as the Popes.  and as Damasus who succeeded Peter, taught at that day, requiring all his subjects to believe the same. He required not them to follow his own Private Faith, 
Ruf. Lib. 11. Cap. 3.  but Peter's Faith, and the Pope's Faith. And whereas there were two Bishops of Alexandria at that time, the one, whose name was Peter, holding with the Bishop of Rome, the other named Lucius, not so: Theodosius commanded his subjects to believe, as Peter did, who followed the first Peter, and Damasus the Bishop of Rome.  
touching the third general Council, it was kept in deed under Theodosius the younger at Ephesus. But he was not supreme head there. Yea rather who knoweth not, that Cyrillus being himself Patriarch of Alexandria, yet was precedent at Ephesus, bearing the steed, and person of Pope Celestine? If cyril was in steed of the Bishop of Rome there precedent, 
* A fond folly. For the Bishop of Rome had evermore the first Place in Councils: Yet was he not therefore the Head of the Church.  who may doubt, but that he was Supreme Head of the Church, in whose name the Precedent sat? Doth the Precedent of the Queen's majesties Counsel use to sit at her counsel in the name of any other inferior person? If Theodosius were supreme and chief, why sat not cyril in his name, as precedent? But seeing that Photius writeth, 
Li. 14. c. 34.  and Nicephorus also, that cyril archbishop of Alexandria sat in the steed of Celestine Pope of Rome over that Council kept at Ephesus, undoubtedly it can not be denied, but that Celestine was supreme head, as well of the Church, as of the General Council.  
It is not therefore only to be considered, that Theodosius sent abroad his messengers to summon the Fathers to the General Council, but also it is to be considered, 
‡ No doubt by the Authority of the Pope. And so was the Emperor only the Pope's man.  by whose authority it was done. If in our time it had pleased the Emperor Ferdinand of Famous Memory to have sent his Messengers to the Kings and Princes of Spain, France, England, Hungary, Bemelande, Pole, and to the Estates, and Dukes of Italy, and Germany, to summon them to the Council, which the Pope thought good to indict at Trent: I think verily the Pope would have thanked the Emperor for it, and himself should have saved so much charges, as men of experience know, such an enterprise to require. But now, sith the Pope hath of his own sufficient to bear the charges of such affairs, he asketh not any more of the Emperor such expenses, as in old time to that necessary purpose by the Emperors were allowed.  
last of all Martian (say you) called the fourth General Council at Chalcedon. We answer. He called it not in such sort as ye mean, to wit, as supreme Head and ruler thereof, but as one able to send messengers for the Bishops about the world, and to sustain the charges, also willing to see peace, and concord in the Church of God. Who list to read the Epistles of Pope Leo to Pul●●eria the Empress, to Martian himself, to Theodosius, to Flavianus archbishop of Constan●●nople, to the Synod first assembled at Ephesus, afterward for certain causes at Chalcedon: in the same Epistles he may see both the cause of the council, and what 
* Untruth. For the Council was summoned to Chalcedon, quite contrary to the Popes will. Read the Answer.  conference was had thereof with the said Leo Bishop of Rome, who sent first to Ephesus, julianus a Bishop, Renatus a Priest, and Hilarius a Deacon: 
The Summoninge of Councils.  and afterward to Chalcedon, Paschasinus, and Lucentius Bishops, and Bonifacius a Priest, to represent hius person. In one of the said Epistles written to the second Synod at Ephesus, 
Leo Epist. 15.  Leo saith thus: Religiosissima Clementissimi principis Fides etc. The most religious Faith of our most element Prince knowing it to pertain chiefly to his re●me, if within the Catholic Church no branch of error springe, hath deferred this reverence to God's ordinances, as to use the authority of the see apostolic, to achieve the effect of a Holy purpose. as though he were desirous by the most blessed Peter himself, that to be declared, which in his confession was praised. By which words It is plain, that in matters of Religion the Emperor proceeded not upon his own Head, but 
* Untruth most manifest: Read the Answer:  was directed by the See of Peter. What shall I say more?  
If the Emperor first Christened the Pope, let the Emperor be superior in things to Godward. But if the Pope Christened the Emperor, (as 
‡ Untruth. For he was Christened by Eusebius the Bishop of Nicomedia, long after that Sylvester was dead.  Sylvester did Constantine) let the spiritual Father in that degree of rule be above the spiritual Child.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
No man could utter so many Untruths together, with such assiance, without some cunning. first, M. harding, ye bear us in hand, that the Emperors of the World, in those days, summoned Councils, not by their own Authority, but by the Authority, & Warrant of the Pope: As if the Pope's Authority at that time, had been many degrees above the Emperor. notwithstanding, Pope Pius. 2. 
Aeneas Silvius in Epist.  as you know, saith thus, Ante Nicenam Synodum unusquisque sibi vixit: & parvus respectus ad Romanam Ecclesiam habebatur: Before the Council of Nice, each Bishop lived severally to himself: and little regard was there then had to the Church of Rome. 
Inter ●pistolas Augustin. Epis. 96.  Pope Innocentius complaineth, that he had not Authority sufficient, to force Pelagius, being but one man, to come before him: much less had he Authority sufficient, to command, & call the whole world. Pope Leo both was an humble suitor himself unto the Emperor Martianus, that it would please his Majesty to command a Council, and also entreated other Bishops to promote the cause. Thus he writeth, Humiliter, ac sapienter exposcite, 
Leo ad Clerum & pleb●m Constan. Epist. 23.  ut Pet●tiom nostrae, qua Plenariam indici Synodum postulamus, Clementissimus Imperator dignetur annuere: Make suit with discrete, and humble Prayer, that our most Gracious Emperor would vouchsafe to grant our request, in that we have desired a General Council. It is not likely, that Pope Leo would thus have written, if his own Authority had been sufficient.  
Nay, it is the more unlikely, that the Emperor should herein at any time use the Authority of the Pope, for that the Pope himself was never able to summon Bishops, as hereafter it shall appear, but only by the Authority of the Emperor. 
Theodoret. Li. 5. Cap. 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eusebius. Lib. 10 Cap. 5.  Pope, Damasus commanded the Bishops of the east, to come to Rome: How be it, not in his own name, for that had been no warrant, but by the emperors special letters. Eusebius saith thus, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: Exemplar Regiarum Literarum, quibus jubet Romae Episcoporum Concilium celebrari: This is a Copy of the Emperors Writ, whereby he commanded a Council to be kept In Rome. As for the Pope, notwithstanding all his Universal Power, he was commanded by the Emperors Summon, to be present at Councils, as well as others.  
In the Council of Chalcedon it is written thus: Eodem tenore à Pijssimis, & Christianissimis Imperatoribus, 
Concil. Chalcedonen. Actio●●. Pag. 748.  Sanctissimus noster Papa, Romanae Ecclesiae praepositus Leo, vocatus est: By order of the same Writ, Our most Holy Pope Leo, ruler of the Church of Rome, was called to the Council by the most Godly, and most Christian Emperors.  
Sozomenus saith, 
The Summoninge of Councils.  Constantinus scripsit ad omnes Praesides Ecclesiarum, ut ad diem adessent: Ad Episcopos Apostolicarum Sedium: Ad Macarium Hierosoly mitanum: ad julium Romanum, etc. The Emperor Constantinus sent out his Letters unto all the Rulers of the Churches, 
〈◊〉. Lib. 1. Cap 17. Theodoret. Lia. Cap. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  that they should meet all at Nice upon a da●e: unto the Bishops of the apostolic Sees: unto Macarius the Bishop of Jerusalem: and unto julius the Bishop of Rome etc. But sulius excused his absence because of his age. Otherwise of Obedience, and duty towards the Emperor, he was as much bound, to have made his appearance there, as the rest of his Brethren.  
Ye say, If the Emperor should have summoned the Council by his own Authority, than the Bishops of Persia, and scotland, which Countries were not then under the Obedience of the Roman empire, would not have appeared upon the Summon, and so had it been no General Council. This cavil wanteth both truth, and savour. For proof whereof, I will bring forth yourself, M. harding, to reprove yourself. ye should not so soon have forgotten your own Decree, specially conceived, and published in this self same Book. Thus you say: these be your own words: A Council is not accounted General, 
M. harding. 〈◊〉 32. ●.  because Bishops of all Countries under Heaven be assembled: but because many be assembled, and all be lawfully called. Otherwise your Late Chapter of trident, with your worthy number of Forty Prelates, whereof certain were only May Bishops, otherwise by you called Nullatenses, could never have been a General Council.  
Certainly it cannot appear, that there was any Bishop, either of scotland, or of England, then called Britain, at any of the first four Councils, either at Nice, or at Ephesus, or at Constantinople, or at Chalcedon. Yet are these Councils nevertheless called General.  
touching the rest, the Emperor was then the only Monarch of the world: 
Chrysost. Ad Popul. An●●othe. Homi. 2.  and, as Chrysostom calleth him, Summitas, & Caput omnium super terram hominum: The Top, and Head of all men in the world. No doubt, who so ever would then have refused the Emperors Summon, much more would he have refused the Summon of the Pope.  
To quali●●e the matter, ye sat, the Emperor did these things, although not by the Pope's warrant, yet, at th● least, by the Pope's Consent, and never otherwise. Here likewise is an other Untruth. For the Emperor commanded Councils, both when he would, and whither he would, whether the Pope would, or no, many times without any manner of regard had to his pleasure. Pope Leo wrote thus unto the Emperor Theodosius, Omnes nostrae Ecclesiae, 
●eo ad 〈◊〉 seon, ●pis. 24.  Omnes Mansue●udini Vestrae cum gemitibus, & Lachrymis supplicant Sacerd●●es, ut Generalem Synodum iubeatis intra Italiam celebrari: All our Churches, and all our priests most humbly beseech your Majesty with sobs, and tears, that ye will command a General Council to be holden within Italy. In like sort he caused the clergy of constantinople, to be susters unto his Majesty for the same: yet nevertheless the Emperor continued still in his purpose: and, contrary to the Pope's humble petition, kept the Council, not in Italy, but at Chalcedon: where also, as it is said before, Pope Leo himself was summoned to appear by the emperors Commandment, with other Bishops.  
Of such Authority was the Pope's consent in Summoninge of Councils. He humbly craved it upon his knees, with sighs, and tears: and could not get it. Hereof Aeneas Silvius, which afterward was Pope Pius. 2, saith thus, 
〈◊〉 Syluiu●. De ●●on●●l. Basilien. Lib. 1.  Ex hisce Authoritatibus mirum in modum se putant armatos, qui Concilia negant sieri posse sine consensu Papae. Quorum sententia, si, ut ipsi volunt, inviolata persistat, ruinam secum Ecclesiae trahit. Quid enim remedij erit, 
The Summoninge of councils.  si criminosus papa perturbet Ecclesiam: si animas perdat: si animas pervertat malo exemplo populos: si denique contraria Fidei praedicet, Haereticisque Dogmatibus imbuat subditos? Sinemúsne cum ipso cuncta ruere? At ego, dum veteres lego Historias, dum Actus perspicio Apostolorum, hunc equidem morem non invenlo, ut Soli Papae Concilia convocaverint: Nec pòst, tempore Constantini Magni, & aliorum Augustorum, ad Congreganda concilia quaesitus est magnoperè Romani consensus Papae: By these Authorities they think themselves armed, that say, no Council may be kept without the consent of the Pope. Whose judgement, if it should stand, as they would have it, would draw with it the decay, and ruin of the Church. For what remedy were there then, if the Pope himself were vicious, destroyed Souls, overthrew the people with evil examples, taught Doctrine contrary to the Faith, and filled his Subjects full of Heresies? Should we suffer all to go to the Devil? Verily, when I read the Old stories, and consider the Acts of the Apostles, I find no such order in those days, that only the Pope should Summon Councils. And afterward, in the time of Coustantine the Great, and of other Emperors, when Councils should be called, there was no great account made of the Pope's consent. 
Cusanus, De Concordia Cathosica, Lib. 3. Ca 15.  Cardinal Cusanus saith, negligent, aut Contradicente papa, Imperator potest praeceptiuè Synodos indicere, ad providendum fluctuanti Ecclesiae: If the Pope be negligent, or, if he say nay, the Emperor, to stay the w●ueringe state of the Church, may command Councils by his own Authority. Thus the Emperor Sigismunde called a Council at constance: notwithstanding it stood Pope john much upon, never to yáelde his consent unto it. For in the same Council he was deprived, and of a Pope was made a Cardinal.  
Ye say, the Pope had Authority to Confirm Councils, Ergo, Much more he had Authority to call Councils. And here ye tell us a very solemn tale, what is commanding: what is assenting: what is Authorizinge; what is Ratifieinge: as if it had been somewhat to the purpose. But if your reason hold, then must General councils have many Callers. For as I shall hereafter sufficiently prove, not only the Pope, or the other principal patriarchs, but also all other Bishops, that were present, yea Emperors, Kings, Lieutenants, & Counsellors had Authority to Confirm Councils. 
Sozomen. Lib. 6. Cap. 23.  Sozomenus saith, Nec Romanus, nec Vicentinus, nec alij confirmarunt: This Council was Confirmed, neither by the Bishop of Rome, nor by the Bishop of Vicentia, nor by the rest of the Bishops. And the Emperor Martianus saith, 
Concil. Chalcedon. Actio. 3. Pag. 804.  Sacrosancto nostrae serenitatis Edicto venerandam Synodum Confirmamus: We Confirm the Reverend Council by the Holy edict of our Majesty. Ye say, Pope Sylvester sent that Famous Learned Father Hosius, the Bishop of Corduba, to the Council of Nice, to represent his person. This may well pass among the rest of your Truths. For neither was Hosius there in the Pope's behalf, but in his own: nor was Pope Sylvester then alive, or able to send him, during the whole time of the Nicene Council: notwithsstandinge any thing, that your Fabulare, Peter Crabbe, hath said to the contrary. As for Hosius, the Bishop of Corduba, of what Authority, and estimation he was in all Ecclesiastical Assemblies, it may appear by these words of Athanasius: In qua Synodo Dux ille, 
Athanasi. Apologia. 2.  & Antesignanus non fuit? Quae Ecclesia istius Praesidentiae non pulcherrima monumenta retinet? In what Council hath not Hosius been Chief, and Presidente? What Church is without some notable remembrance of his government? Certainly, M. harding, it seemeth, he was a great deal too good, to be sent so far in a dead man's errant.  
notwithstanding, 
Sozomen. Lib. 1. Cap. 17.  julius, being then Bishop of Rome, for that he was unable to travail, because of his age, sent thither two Priests. Vitus, and Vincentius, to supply his room. Thus he did, not of pride, the better by his absence to maintain a state, but only for that he was forced of necessity so to do. For if he had been able to travail so far, 
The Summoninge of councils.  he had been forced to go thither himself. Therefore Pope Agatho afterward thus excused his Absence unto the Emperor: Christianissimi Domini filii, secundum Pijssimam jussionem Mansuetudinis vestrae, 
Concil. Constantinopolitan. Actio. 4. Ad Heraclium. & Tiberium Imper. Pag. 288. Athanasi. ad Antiochen. to. 2.  pro Obedientia, quam debuimus, praesentes confamulos nostros misimus: My most Christian Lords, and Children, according to the most godly Commandment of your Majesties, and according to the Obedience, that we own of duty, we have sent these present our Fellow Servants.  
Other Bishops in like cases of age, or infirmity, did the like. For example, Lucifer, the Bishop of Sardinia, sent Herennius, and Agapetus: and Paulinus sent Maximus, and Calemerus to the Council of Nice, to be in their steeds.  
Ye say, Vitus, and Vincentius, for that they were the Pope's Legates, had therefore the first place in Subscription among the Bishops. Here is an other great Untruth. 
Theodoret, Lib. 1. Cap. 7.  For Theoderetus saith, the first, and Chief of all that company, both in place, & in speech, was, not Vitus, or Vincentius, the Pope's Legates, but Eustathius the Patriarch of Antioch.  
touching these two the Pope's Legates, 
Sozomen. Lib. 1. Cap. 17. Athanasi. Apologia 2.  Sozomenus placeth them only in the fourth room: Athanasius saith, Subscripserunt, Hosius ab Hispania, julius Romanus per Archidamum, & Philoxenum Presbyteros: They Subscribed their names to the Council, Hosius that came out of Spain, and julius the Bishop of Rome, by Archidamus, and Philoxenus Priests, that were his Legates: By which words he alloweth the Bishop of Rome's Legates the second place in Subscription: but not the first. And thus, ye see, Hosius the Bishop of Corduba subscribeth before julius the Bishop of Rome.  
In the Council of Aphrica, 
Concil. Aphric. Ca 100 Concil. Chalcedon. Actio. 1. Sancta.  Philippus, and Asellius the Pope's Legates, had the last Place in Subscription after all others. In the Council of Chalcedon, Philippus, one of the Pope's Legates, had a hundred, & seven and fifty others to Subscribe before him.  
These Fathers, I trow, would not have been so unmannerly in their dealing, if they had taken the Pope for the Head of the whole Universal Church, 
Sozom. li 1. ca 17 Athanas Apologia. 2. Theodoret. Lib. 1. Cap. 7. Micephor. Lib. Cap. 14.  to have placed his Legate behind so many. Further, ye say, At the very same time, that the General Council was kept at Nice, S. Sylvester called an other Council in Rome. This, I trow, M. harding, is an other Untruth: unless ye have power to raise up dead men, to keep Councils, For Sylvester was dead long before.  
Sozomenus saith, Vitus, & Vincentius were sent to Nice, not by Pope Sylvester, who then was dead, but by Pope julius, that was the second after him. The like may easily appear by Athanasius, 
Tabula Hermamni Contracti: 

Sylvester Papa motitur.  
Marcus Papa Vixit octo Menses.  
julius Papa. Hoc tempore Constant●nus indixit Nice ●um Concilium.  
Anno Domi. 324.    Theodoretus, Nicephorus, and others. Therefore, M. harding, you must needs devise two Councils of Nice about one time: two Syluesters Popes: two Writers of this one story, the one true, the other false. Otherwise, this frail stuff will never hold. Ye are over easy to credit Fables.  
The Council, that ye imagine, was holden in Rome by Pope Sylvester, is nothing else but a heap of childish Vanitises. The Holy discrete Learned Fathers say there, Nemo Presbyterorum Chrisma conficiat: quoniam Christus à Chrismate vocatur: Praesul Summus non iudicabitur à quoquam: Quoniam scriptum est, Non est Discipulus supra Magistrum. Neque ab Augusto, neque ab omni Clero, neque à Regibus, neque ab omni Populo judex iudicabitur: 
Co●c. Rom. Ca 5. Ca 3. Ca 12.  No Priest may make, or hallow the Chrism: For Christ of Chrism hath his name. The highest Prelate (that is, the Pope) more be judged of noman: For it is written, The Scholar is not above his Master. The judge (that is, the pope) shall not be judged, neither by the Emperor, nor by all the clergy, nor by Kings, and Princes, nor by the whole people. Such and other like good stuff have you in your Council of Rome.  
notwithstanding, 
The Summoninge of Councils.  of what credit so ever this Council were, yet, M. harding, it utterly overthroweth your whole purpose. For, if ever there were any such Council summoned in Rome, it was summoned, not by Sylvester the dead Pope, but by the Authority of the Emperor y● them was alive. So Eusebius writeth of the Council of Rome, holden in the time of Pope Meltiades, as it is said before: 
Euseb. Li. 10. ca 5.  Exemplar Regiarum Literarum, etc. Here is a Copy of the Emperors Writ, whereby he hath commanded a Council of Bishops to be kept at Rome.  
Likewise the Bishops assembled in the Council of Constantinople, wrote unto the Bishops in the Council of Rome: 
Theodoretus, li. 5 Cap. 9  Cùm indixissetis, etc. After ye had called a Council to Rome, ye warned us also to come thither, as the Members of your own Body, by the most godly Emperors Writ.  
By these it appeareth, if there were any such Council called to Rome, it was called by the Emperor, and not by the Pope.  
ye say, the Emperor in such affairs was advised evermore by the Bishops. This is not unlikely, and therefore easily may be granted. Notwithstanding, for aught, that may appear, he was more advised oftentimes by some other Bishops, then by the Pope, as it shall appear. Eusebius, touching the Emperor Constantinus, writeth thus: Quasi Communis quidam Episcopus à Deo constitutus, 
Euseb. Devita Constantini, Oratione. 1. Ruffin. li. 1. ca 1.  Ministrorum Dei Synodos convocavit: As if he had been one Common Bishop appointed by God, he appointed Councils of Bishops to assemble together. Ruffinus saith, The Emperor was advised hereto by Alexander, the Bishop of Alexandria, and by other Bishops, and Priests of egypt. Here is no mention of the Pope. In the like cases of Ecclesiastical Affairs, Athanasius was an earnest suitor unto the Emperor Constantius: Dioscorus, unto Theodosius: and so others, unto other.  
But of the Pope's omnipotent consent, without which, ye tell us, no Emperor may summon a Council, there is noman that maketh mention.  
Ye say, There ought no Council to be kept without the determinate consent of the Bishop of Rome. This also is an other of your Untruths, standing in the manifest corruption of the words of Socrates: as in my Former Reply I have declared more at large. 
Arti. 4. Divi. 26 Socrat li. ● ca 17 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Cassiodor. Lib. 4. Cap. 19 Regula juris, Quod omnes tangit, ab omnibus debet approbari.  The words of Socrates be these, Non licet scribere Ecclesiastica Decreta praeter sententiam Episcopi Romani: It is provided, that Ecclesiastical Laws be not made without the consent of the Bishop of Rome: For that the Bishop of Rome was one of the Four Great patriarchs, whoes assents in all General Councils were thought necessary. But Socrates meaneth such Ecclesiastical Laws, as pertain to the whole Church of God. For this is a Rule agreeable to reason, That toucheth all, must be allowed by al.  
Now, whereas ye have exchanged the Alloweinge of Canons, into the Summoninge, or Calling of Councils, it may please you to remember, that Alloweinge of Canons was common to all the Members of the Council, and specially to the Four Principal patriarchs, as it is said before: But the Authority of Calling Councils belonged only to the Emperor.  
That ye allege of Athanasius, is a vain, and a shameless Forgery: as I have otherwhere declared more at large. Such Religion, such Doctors. Such Folly is worthy no other answer.  
Valentinian the Emperor, 
Sozom. Li. 6. ca 7  ye say, accounted himself as one of the people: and therefore said, It was not lawful for him, to Examine matters of Religion. Thus he said, either of humility, or else for want of time. His foretne Enemies, his Wars, and his Civil Cares had filled his head with other thoughts. Nicephorus imagineth him thus to say, 
Nicephor. Lib. 1● cap. 3.  Mihi negotijs occupatio, & Reipublicae curis distento, res huiusmodi inquirere non est facile: For me, being thus occupied with Business, and Public Cares, 
The Summoninge of Councils.  it is not easy to inquire of such matters. Otherwise, that Ecclesiastical Causes be within the Prince's Charge, I doubt not, but hereafter it shall well appear. King Odoacer said unto Pope Symmachus, and unto the clergy of Rome, 
Concil. Roman. 3 Cap. 2.  as it is alleged once before: Miramur, quicquam tenratum fuisse sine nobis. Name, vivente nostro Presbytero, sine nobis nihil tentari oportuit: We marvel, that any thing was attempted without us: For without us nothing should have been done, so long as Our priest (he meaneth the Pope) was alive.  
After this ye fill thee house full with patriarchs of Constantinople, patriarchs of Alexandria, patriarchs of Jerusalem, Princes of Bulgaria, and with other like great, & stately persons. The Conclusion hereof is this, That Pope Damasus gave his consent to the Council of Constantinople. All this, M. harding, ye might soon have obtained with more favour, and less a do. How be it, ye may not hereof well reason thus, The Pope consented unto the Council: Ergo, The Pope had Authority to call the Council: lest children wonder at your Logic.  
In the mean while, ye say, the Emperor Theodosius ruled the empire: whereby ye geue us to understand, that he had no charge over the Church. And thus ye continue still to enrich yourself, & to heap your Reader with Untruths.  
Certainly the Bishops in the Council of Constantinople wrote thus in humble wise unto the same Emperor Theodosius: Obsecramus Clementiam tuam, 
Post Conci. Ephesinum Primum.  ut, quemadmodum Literis honorasti Ecclesiam, quibus nos Conuocasti, ita finalem Conclusionem nostrorum Decretorum corroboves sententia tua, & Sigillo: We beseech your Majesty, that, as ye have honoured thee Church by your Letters, wherewith ye have called us together, so it may please you, to Confirm the final Conclusion of our Decrees with your Sentence, and with your Seal.  
Further, as it appeareth by your own Allegation, the same Emperor Theodosius took upon him, 
The Emperor limiteth the Catholic Faith.  to bound, and to limit the Catholic Faith, & that even in the Body of his Civil Laws: which thing neither could he have done without judgement: nor would he have done without Authority. But, if ye ineane, that by this Determination of the Emperor Theodosius, that Faith only should be taken for Catholic, that was then professed by Pope Damasus, and should afterward be professed by others succeeding in Peter's Chair, then have ye secretly conveyed us in an other Untruth. The place itself will soon reprove you. 
Cod. Theodosian. Lib. 16. Titu de Fide Catholic. Cunctos Populos  The emperors words be these, Cunctos populos in tali volumus Religione versari, quam Divinum Petrum Apostolum tradidisse Romanis, Religio usque nunc ab eo insinuata declarat: quamque Pontificem Damasum sequi claret, & Petrum Alexandriae Episcopum, Virum Apostolicae sanctitatis: We will el men to walk in that Religion, which Holy Peter the Apostle delivered to the Romans, as the Faith first enkindled by him, and still continue wed until this day, doth declare: which Religion also it is plain, that Pope Damasus followeth, and Peter the Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. Here the Emperor Theodosius commandeth his Subjects to follow, as well the Faith of Peter the Bishop of Alexandria, as of Damasus the Bishop of Rome.  
And yet in the next title following, he openeth his own meaning in this wise by other Eramples, 
Cod. Theodosi. li. 16. Titu. 3. Sozom. li. 7. ca 9  more at large: Episcopis tradi omnes Ecclesias mox jubemus, quos constabit uti Communione Nectarij Episcopi Constantinopolitanae Ecclesiae, & Timothei, etc. We command, that forthwith the Churches be restored to all Bishops, of whom it shall appear, that they Communicate with Nestorius the Bishop of Constantinople, or with Timotheus: or such as shall have fellowship, or agreement in Faith, with the Bishops of Alexandria in egypt: and with Pelagius the Bishop of Laodicea: and with Diodorus the Bishop of Tarsus in Asia: and with Amphilochius the Bishop of Iconium: and with Optimus the Bishop of Antioch: and with Helladius the Bishop of Caesaria: and with Otreius the Bishop of Melite: and with Gregorius the Bishop of Nyssa: and with Terennius the Bishop of Scythia: and with Marmarius the Bishop of Martianopolis. Every of these several Bishops, M. harding, by the Emperors judgement, in trial of the Catholic Faith, had as great Authority, and weight, as the Bishop of Rome.  
But Pope Coelestinus, ye say, desired Cyrillus the Bishop of Alexandria, to represent his person, and to supply his rovine in the Council of Ephesus, that is to say, to have the first place in the Council. For the first Place in all Ecclesiastical Assemblies was allotted to the Bishop of Rome: 
Dis. 22. Renovamtes.  The second, to the Bishop of Constantinople: The third, to the Bishop of Alexandria: The Fourth, to the Bishop of Antioch: The fifth, to the Bishop of Jerusalem.  
This packing of places therefore between Coelestinus, and Cyrillus, was a Mystery, purposely canuessed, to keep the Bishop of Constantinople, whom the Pope evermore envied, out of countenance. For by this Policy, the Bishop of Alexandria, that should have had the third Place, was handsomely shifted into the first: and the Bishop of Constantinople, which, in the Bishop of Rome's absence, should have had the first Place, was removed down to the second.  
How be it, what availeth all this, M. harding, to further your purpose, & to prove, that Councils were summoned by the Pope? Verily it appeareth not hitherto, that either Coelestinus, or Cyrillus, or any other Bishop had any such Power, or Authority to summon Councils. This is it, that ye should have proved. As for the first, or second Place, we moved no question.  
Again, ye seem to say, the Pope of right was evermore president in all Councils. This, if ye know it, is an other Untruth: If ye know it not, it is an error. 
Theodoretus, li. 3. Cap. 7.  For it is plain, that in the first Council of Nice Pope julius was not Presidente, but Eustathius the Bishop of Antioch. The Pope's Legates, as it is said before, 
Euagri. Lib. 4. Cap. 38.  were placed beneath in the fourth room: In the fifth Council of Constantinople, Menna the Bishop of the same City, was Precedent, & not the Pope. 
Nicephor. Li. 17. Cap. 27.  In the Second Ephesine Council, Dioscorus the Bishop of Alexandria was Presidente. In the second Council of Carthage it seemeth Gennedius was the Presidente.  
This Dignity than passed not by Inheritance, 
Concil. Chalced. Acti. 1. Dioscoro. Exactis Conci. Carthag. 2.  or by Succession, as the Pope now would seem to claim it: but, either by choice of the Council, or by favour of the Prince. Thus Hosius the Bishop of Corduba in Spain, not by right of his place, 
Sozom. li. 3. ca 12. Socra. li. 2. ca 20. Athanas. Apologia 2.  but for the worthiness of his person, was appointed Presidente in the Council of Sardica. And Athanasius speaketh of him in this wise with great admiration, Cuius non fuit ille Concilij Princeps? In what Council hath not Hosius been the Presidente, or Chief?  
ye say, Pope Sylvester Christened the Emperor Constantinus, and therefore was his Spiritual Father. This may pass among other your Truths. For your Popes, by their Omnipotent Power may Minister Sacraments, being dead. And yet, notwithstanding all this were true, M. harding, yet your cause thereby were little furthereo. unless perhaps ye will reason thus: Pope Sylvester Christened the Emperor: Ergo, The Pope hath Authority, to call Councils. How be it, unless this Argument be better digested, your very Sophisters of Louvain will hardly allow it.  
But in deed, that whole tale, touching the christening of the Emperor Constantine, 
Inter Acta Liberij. Cap. 6. Euseb. De vita Constan. Orat. 4.  is nothing else, but a peevish fable. Constantius, the Emperors own Son, utterly denieth, that Sylvester ever baptized Constantinus his Father. Eusebius saith, Constantinus was Christened, not in the flourishing state of his age, but only a little before he died: not in Rome, but at Nicomedia, in the Kingdom of Epirus: not in a corner, but in the presence of many Bishops: and, as S. Jerome saith, not by Pope Sylvester, that then was dead, but by Eusebius the Bishop of Nicomedia. 
Socra. Anno Aetatis suae. 65. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  For proof whereof, S. Ambrose saith, Constantino in ultimis constituto, Gratia Baptismatis omnia peccata dimisit: The Grace of Baptism foregave Constantine all his sins, even at the ending of his life. Therefore, M. harding, we must needs say, that, either your tale is untrue, which is not strange: or else Constantine was twice baptized, which is very unlikely.  
Cardinal Poole, 
Hieronym. in Chronico.  seeing the matter to pass so clear, telleth us roundly in one word, that Eusebius, and Constantius were Ariane Heretics, and therefore refuseth the whole story written by Eusebius, 
Ambro. de obit●● Theodosij.  touching the Christening of Constantine. But, somewhat to sooth you in your tale, let a Fable stand for Truth: & let us grant you an impossibility, 
Cardinal. Polus de Baptismo Constantini, Pag. 87.  that Constantine was baptized by Pope Sylvester being dead. Yet will you needs gather hereof, that the Emperor is Subject to the Pope? Or, that the Pope hath Authority to call Councils? What will you then say, when the Emperor is baptized by some other Priest, or Bishop, or by a Midwife? Shall every of these therefore require to have, and to do the like? Or, must we believe, that such a Priest, Bishop, or Midwife shall have Authority to call Councils? In deed, this were a good short way to get Supremacy. But it might have pleased you, to remember, that the Cardinal of Ostia useth always of Office to consecrate the Pope. Yet, I trow, ye will not therefore place him above the Pope. Elizaeus anointed King jehu: yet was he not therefore above the King. 
Heruaeus de Potestat. Pp. Ca 18.  Your own doctor saith, Quòd hoc Argumentum non concludat, patet: quia in Veteri Lege, Sacerdotes, qui Reges inungebant, indubitanter Regibus Subdebantur: It appeareth, that this Argument concludeth nothing. For in the Old Law, the Priests, that anointed thee Kings, were undoubtedly subject to the Kings.  
To conclude, what right Emperors had in Summoninge of Councils, by these few Authorities, and Examples following, it may soon appear. Eusebius saith, 
Euseb. de Vita Constan. Orat. 3.  Constantinus Synodum Oecumenicam Collegit, & Episcopos, ut undique accelerarent, honorificis literis convocavit: (Not the Pope, but) Constantine gathered a General Council, and by honourable Writes called y● bishops of all Countries to repair thither. 
Theodor. Lib. 1. Cap. 9  Theodoretus saith, A great, and a Holy Council was gathered to Nice, by the Grace of God, and (not by the Pope, but) by the Godly Emperor. Sozomenus saith, 
Sozom. li. 1. ca 17.  (Not the Pope, but) The Emperor Constantine wrote unto all the Rulers of the Churches, that they should be at Nice by a day: to the Bishops of the apostolic Sees, to Macarius the Bishop of Jerusalem, and to julius the Bishop of Rome. In which words this also may be noted, that the Pope than was under the Emperors Summon, no less than others.  
In the Council of Constantinople, the Bishops wrote thus unto the Emperor, Ex mandato tuae Pietatis Constantinopolim convenimus: 
Concil. Constantinopoli. 1.  We are come to Constantinople, (not by the Pope's Authority, but) by your majesties Commission. Athanasius saith, 
Athana. de Synodis Artmin. & Seleuceen.  Ab Imperatore, praefectisque Literae sequentes in omnem partem missae sunt, eos, qui illuc ituri essent, convocantes: These Letters, or Writes following were sent out into all places (not from the Pope, but) from the Emperor, and his Lieutenants, summoning them, that should come unto the Council. S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. Epist. 1. Ad Innocentium. Ambros. in Concil. Aquileien.  We went in, and humbly besought (not the Pope, but) the most Christian Prince, to call a Council. S. Ambrose, speaking of himself, and of other Bishops, being then at the Council of Aquileia, saith thus: Nos convenimus Aquileiam juxta Praeceptum Imperatoris: Were are met together at Aquileia, by the Commandment of the Emperor, (and, not of the Pope).  
S. Jerome saith, Orientis, atque Occidentis Episcopos ob quasdam Ecclesiasticas dissensines Romam Imperiales Literae contraxerunt: To stay certain Ecclesiastical dissensions (not any the Pope's Letters of Commandment, but) the emperors Writes caused the Bishops, 
Hierony. in Epitaphio Paulae.  as well of the east, as of the west, to draw to Rome.  
Of Pope Leo, we have said before. Being Pope, and, as M. harding imagineth, able to summon the world with a beck, thus he writeth to the Emperor Theodosius: 
Leo, Epist. 9 Ad Theodosium Imperatorem.  Dignetur pietas vestra supplicationi nostrae annuere, ut intra Italiam haberi iubeatis Episcopale Concilium: We beseech your Godly Majesty, to grant unto our humble request, that it may please you to command a Council of Bishops to be holden within Italy.  
Sozomenus saith, 
The Pope humbly desireth the Emperor to summon a Council.  The Arians besought (not the Pope, but) the Emperor Constantius, to command a Council, to be holden at Antioch. The same Arians afterward besought (not the Pope, but) the same Emperor Constantius, to summon an other Council to Milan. Again sozomenus saith, The Catholic bishops scent Hypatianus their ambassador, to entreat (not the Pope, but) the Emperor, 
Sozom li. 4. ca 22 Socrat. li. 2. ca 8. Theodoret. Li. 2. Cap. 15.  that, to redress certain Errors, they might have leave to meet together. Pope Liberius saith, A Council is holden at Milan (not by my Authority, but) by the Commandment of the Prince. Pope Leo saith, The great Council of Chalcedon was summoned (not by himself, but) by the travail of Martianus the Emperor. 
Ruffi. li. 1. ca 19 Sozom. li. 6. ca 7. Inter Acta Liberij.  The Emperor Constantius Commanded two several Councils to be kept at one time: the one at Seleucea in Isauria in the East: the other at Ariminum in Italy in the west. Socrates saith, Sithence the Emperors were first Christened, the state of the Church hath hanged of them: and the greatest Councils have been, 
Leo ad Anatolium. Socra. li. 2. ca 37 Socrates, Lib. 5. in prooemio.  and be kept by their advise.  
Thus many ancient Councils we are able to show you, summoned by Emperors. Now show you, M. harding, either that the Emperor did all these things by the Authority of the Pope: or, that the Emperor was only the Pope's Summoner, to call to Council such, and so many, as it should like his Holiness to command: Or, that the Pope did ever summon any one Ancient General Council by his own only right, without further Commission from the Emperor, then will we say, ye have said some thing. As for all, that ye have now said, in good sooth, it is less, than nothing.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 3.  
And when Rufine, the Heretic, had alleged for his Authority a Council, which, as he thought, should make for him: S. Jerome his Adversary, to confute him, Tell us (quoth he) what Emperor commanded that Council to be called? The same S. Jerome again in his epitaph upon Paula, maketh mention of the emperors Letters, which gave commandment, to call the Bishops of Italy, and Graecia to Rome, to a Council.  

M. harding.  
Besides that ye 
* Untruth, prceding of Ignorance: as it may soon appear.  do strangely, to call Rufine an Heretic, we say, that S. Jerome might well demand, what Emperor summoned that Council, which was never summoned. Again we confess, that some Emperors have summoned both Latin and Greek Bishops. 
‡ Read the former Answer.  But ye prove not, that any did it as supreme head, and as judge in matters of Religion, but by the consent of the Bishops of Rome, as I have declared before.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Were you not a stranger in your own Books, M. Harding, ye would not think it so strange a matter, to hear Ruffinus called an Heretic. S. Jerome doubted not so to call him. 
Hierony in Apologia contra Ruffinum.  Thus he saith: Dum mihi inconstantiae crimen impingit, se Haereticum, etc.: Ita verrit Origenen, ut, qui in Trinitate Catholiquum legeret, in alijs Haereticum non caveret: While Ruffinus chargeth me with inconstancy, he proveth himself to be an Heretic, etc. Ruffinus hath so translated Origen into Latin, that who so findeth him Catholic touching the Trinity, should never suspect him, in any thing else, to be an Heretic. 
In eadem Apologia.  Again he saith unto him, Solos Haereticos non recipimus, quos vos solos recipitis: Only Heretics we receive not into our houses: And yet them only you receive.  
Anastasius, the Bishop of Rome, hath thus published his judgement of the same Ruffinus: 
Anastasius ad Episcopum Hierosolymorun. Apud Hieronym. To. 4.  Omni suspicione seposita, Ruffinum scito, quòd proptia mente Origenis dicta in Latinun transtulit, ac probavit. Nec dissimilis ab eo est, qui alienis vitijs praestat assensum. Illud tamen scire te cupio, ita haberi à nostris partibus alienum, ut quid agate, ubi sit, nec scire cupiamus: All suspicion set apart, know thou, that Ruffinus hath translated Origen (the Heretics) words into Latin, according to his own liking, and well alloweth the same. And, who so ever giveth his consent unto an other man's fault, it not unlike unto him. notwithstanding thus much I would have thee to know, that Ruffinus is so far from our fellowship, or profession of Faith, that we desire not to know, neither what he doth, nor where he is.  
Vincentius saith, 
Vincent. in Speculo, li. 17. ca 99  that S. Jerome charged Ruffinus with the Pelagian Heresy. Erasmus saith, Ruffinus non fuit alienus ab Origenistarum Haeresi: Ruffinus was not clear from the Origenians Heresy. Again, speaking of the same Heretics, 
Erasmus in Vita Hieronymi.  he saith, Huius rein Dux, & signifer Aquileiensis Ruffinus fuit. Again, Notat, nescio quem: ipsum, opinor, Ruffinum, qui in eam Haeresim inductus est à Magistro quopiam, 
Erasm in Epist. Hieronym. ad Principiam. In Scholar  etc. Again, Monet, ut explosa factione Origenistarum, cos etiam eijciat, qui clam, & obliqne essent Origenistae, Ruffinum, & illius amicos: The Captain, and standard bearer of this Heresy, was Ruffinus of Aquileia, etc. Again, S. Jerome here noteth some body, I know not whom: but I think, Ruffinus himself: that was brought into this Heresy by some teacher, 
Erasm. in Argumento Epistolae Theophili ad Hieronym.  etc. Again, He warneth his friend, that having renounced the Origenian Heretics, he would likewise renounce them, that privily, and in secret were Origenian Heretics, meaning Ruffinus, and his friends.  
Likewise again he saith, Ruffinus gravissima suspicione premebatur, quòd esset Origenista. Sub hoc enim titulo Arianorum Haeresis conata est repullulascere: Ruffinus was grievously suspected to be an Origenian Heretic. 
Erasm. De Libris Origenis.  For under that name the Arian Heresy began to revive. Thus ye see, M. harding, it was not so great an Heresy, to say, that Ruffinus was an Heretic.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division. 4.  
Continually for the space of Five Hundred years, the Emperor alone appointed the Ecclesiastical Assemblies, and called the Councils of the Bishops together.  
We now therefore marvel the more at the unreasonable dealing of the Bishop of Rome, who knowing, what was the emperors right, when the Church was well ordered, knowing also that it is now a common right to all Princes, for so much as Kings are now fully possessed in the several parts of the whole Empire, doth so without consideration, assign that office alone to himself, & taketh it sufficient in Summoning a General Council, to make that man, that is Prince of the whole world, no otherwise partaker thereof, than he would make his own servant.  

M. harding.  
Where you say, The Emperor alone celebrated, kept, or held Councils, for so is your Latin, 
‡ This is M. hardings modesty. Read the Answer next going before this, saving one.  it is too impudently faced, without any face, without proof, without Truth. They were Celebrated, or holden 
* untruthplaine, and evident. For many times the Pope's Legares were Underlings and Inferiors unto others.  by the pope's Legates, the patriarchs, and Bishops, and not by Emperors. All be it, Emperors might 〈◊〉 them, 
‡ Untruth. For the Emperors Ambassadors sitting in Council, were called Illustrissimi judices.  but not as judges. And they have ever been called Episcopalia Concilia, not 
* no more were they called Concilia Papalia.  〈◊〉 cratoria, Councils of Bishops, not of Emperors. And diverse Counsels, not accounted General 〈◊〉 kept by Bishops before any Emperor was Christened. As those, which were kept by S. 〈◊〉 Jerusalem, 
Actor. 15.  mentioned in the Acts of the Aposties: in the time of victor the Pope, in Palestina and other places, concerning the keeping of Easier: At Rome about the time of Pope Fabian, against the Novatian Heresy: At Antioch, against Paulus Samosatenus, and many others. All which 〈◊〉 were kept, not only without the presence of the Emperors person, but 
‡ So were the most part of the same Councils kept without, either the Presence, or the Power, or Authority of the Pope.  also without his Power, or Authority. And yet, if he were head of the Church, it could not have been done without him.  
If you say, He was not then Christened, I answer, that Christianity is no part of his Imperial Power. It is a spiritual Power, whereby he is made the son of God. He may thereby be ruled by a Christian Bishop. But verily, he hath no Power geeven to him, whereby he may rule Bishops. 
* O folly of follies. As if the emperors Power were either enceased, or impaired by his Baptism.  Baptism maketh a man the Child of the Church. But * it is Imposition of hands, in consecrating a Christian Priesie to be a Bishop, that giveth him rule over others, and not the Sacrament of Baptism. Therefore, Emperors were not the holder's or keepers of Councils, the first five hundred years. Yea, three hundred were fully expired, before the Emperor professed openly the Christian Faith. So much the less may you marvel, that now the Bishop of Rome, calleth and keepeth Councils, chiefly by his own authority. 
‡ A substantial good reason. But what if S. Ambrose say, He succeedeth judas?  For he succeedeth Peter, not Nero. He took his authority of Christ imm● diatly, not of the people of Rome. Be the Emperor Christian, or not Christian, the Bishop of Rome by 
* The Pope a Christian man by Nature of Office.  nature of his bishops office, is not only always a Christian man, but also a chief Priest.  
Where you say, the Bishop of Rome in summoning the late Council, did besides good consideration, in that he made a man, that is Prince of the whole world, no other wise partaker thereof, than he would make his own seruainte: you forget yourself foully, and seem to reck little what you speak, so you utter your malice For who is that, whom you call Prince of the whole world? What contradiction is this? Said you not in the same sentence before, that kings are now fully possessed in the several parts of the whole Empire? How then call you Ferdinand 
‡ It is written in your own Gloze, jura commentia decunt, quòd Imperator est Dominus Mundi.  Prince of the whole world? Well, this is but one of the common ornaments of your Rhetoric. Sir the Emperor Ferdinand, of famous memory, was not so abused of Pius the fourth, that blessed man, Bishop of Rome in these our days. Ye rather are they, who abuse the emperors Majesty. For ye depose him clean from his seat: ye find fault that ever Leo the third made an Emperor in the west. Ye complain openly that the Imperial Majesty had not continued still at Constantinople. belike, to the intent the Turk might now have had it, who is known to suffer in his Dominions all Faiths, and Religions: for which cause it may seem, ye favour him. As for Pope Pius that now is, he deferred the old privilege of honour unto the Emperor Ferdinand, without the old burden. For where as in old times 
* Untruths two together. For nether was it so, not doth Socrates record it so.  Councils were holden by authority of the Pope, * as Socrates witnesseth, yet the Emperor bore the charge of calling the Bishops together. 
Lib. 8. ca 2.  But now the Pope himself bore a great part of that burden, and communicated his propose fully with the Emperor.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Whether it were the Emperor alone, that appointed Ecclesiastical Councils, it may appear by that we have already said. The Pope alone, I assure you, 
pererssuccessours.  it was not. May, the Emperor, as it is said, and proved before, oftentimes held such Assemblies, when, & where his selfed listed, whether the Pope would, or no. The Pope's duty was only to appear amongst other Bishops, when he was called.  
I grant, such Councils had their name of Bishops, and were called Concilia Episcopalia, for that matters there were specially ordered by the discretion, and judgement of the Bishops. But will you therefore conclude, that the same Councils pertained nothing to the Prince? Certainly, the Emperor Constantinus Commanded all the Bishops to appear before him, and to yield him a reckoning of their Determinations in the Council. This was the tenor of his Write: 
Sozomen. li. 2. ca 28.  Quotquot Synodum Tyri habitam complevistis, sine mora ad Pietatis nostrae Castra properetis: ac re ipsa, quàm sincerè, ac rectè iudicaveritis, ostendatis: Idque Coram me: 
Socrat li. 1. ca 33.  quem sincerum esse Dei Ministrum, ne vos quidem ipsi negabitis: As many of you, as have kept the Council at Tyrus, repair to our Camp without desaie: and show me in deed, how sincerely, and rightly ye have proceeded: And that, even before me: whom you yourselves cannot deny to be the Sincere Servant of God.  
Athanasius was the greatest travailer in the Council of Nice against the Arians: 
Triparti. Histo. li. 2. ca 2.  yet was he than no Bishop, but only a Deacon. But hereof we have sufficiently said before.  
Christianity, ye say, is no part of the Imperial Power. Ye might likewise have said, Christianity is no part of the Papale Power. Verily, it can not well appear, that Peter, and Paul had ever any such Christianity. The emperors right is neither increased, nor abated by his Baptissne. Whether he be Faithful, or Unfaithful, he is the Minister of God, and beareth the Sword to punish sin.  
Ye say, The Pope succeedeth Peter, and not Nero: Therefore he calleth, and keepeth Councils chiefly by his own Authority. Of such proper Arguments, M. harding, we marvel not much, though ye make no store. How be it, some men have thought, ye do S. Peter great wrong, appointing him such Children, to be his Heirs. For many of them, in all their dealings, have resembled Nero, 
Bernard. De Consideratione. li 4. Citatur ab Illyrico inter Test. veritat. pag. 387. Erasmus, In Adagio, Sileni Alcibiadis.  more than Peter. S. bernard saith thus unto Pope Eugenius: In his successisti, non Petro, sed Constantino: In these things ye have succeeded, not Peter the Apostle, but the Emperor Constantine. Pope Adrian the fourth was wont to say: Succedimus, non Petro in docendo, sed Romulo in parricidio: We succeed, not Peter in teaching, but Romulus in killing our Brethren.  
Erasmus saith, Pontifices nunc sunt Vicarij lulij Caesaris, Alexandri Magni, Croesi, Xerxis: non Christi, non Petri: The Pope's now are the vicars of julius Caesar, of Alexander the Great, of Croesus, and of Xerxes: not of Peter. It is written in a Sermon, bearing the name of S. Ambrose: Qui debuerint esse Vicarij Apostolorum, 
Ambro. Citatur ab Illyrico inter Test. pag. 142. Robert. Gallus, cap. 5.  factisunt Socij judae: They, that should have been the Apostles vicars, are now become judas Fellows. Robertus Gallus, that lived well-near three hundred years past, imagineth, Christ thus to say of the Pope: Quis posuit Idolum hoc in Sede mea, ut imperaret Gregi meo? Who set this Idol in my room, and made him Ruler over my Flock?  
Yet, 
Dis. 19 Sic omnes. In Gloss. Cardinal. Cusanus, De Autho. Eccle. & concilij Supra & contra Scripturam  you say, the Pope is always, not only a Christian man, but also a Chief Priest, (not by Faith, but) by the nature of his Office. Even so your Gloze telleth you, Papa Sanctitatem recipit à Cathedra: The Pope receiveth his holiness of his Chair: that is to say, of the nature of his Office. Cardinal Cosanus saith, Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae, etc. Veritas per Christum Cathedrae alligata est, non Personis. Ait enim: Super Cathedram Mosi sederunt Scribae, & Pharisaei: The Truth cleaveth fast to the Pope's Chair, etc. Christ hath nailed his Truth to the Pope's Chair, and not to his person. For he saith, The Scribes, and Phariseis are placed in Moses Chair. another saith, 
Dis. 40. Non nos. In Gloss.  Tameisi Papa non sit bonus, tamen semper praesumitur esse bonus. In Papa si desint bona acquisita per meritum, sufficiunt, quae a loci praedecessore praestantur: notwithstanding the Pope be not good, 
part hereof hath been touched before.  yet he is ever presumed to be good. If the Pope lack good virtues of his own, the virtues of Peter, his predecessor, are sufficient.  
There were never so many Heretics in any one See, as have been in the See of Rome: as I have already sufficiently, and fully proved. And yet, ye say. The Pope cannot err. There were never so notorious Examples, or, as Platyna calleth them, 
Platyna. In Benedict. 4.  Monsters of filthy life: Yet, ye say, they are all Holy Fathers, and hold their Christianity by Nature of office. How be it, your doctor Alphonsus saith, 
Alphonsus, Aduersus Harese. li. 1. ca 9  Quamuis credere teneamur ex Fide, Verum Petri Successorem esse Supremum Pastorem Totius Ecclesiae, non tamen tenemur eadem Fide credere. Leonem, aut Clementem esse Verum Petri Successorem: Although we be bound to believe, that the True successor of Peter is the highest pastor of all the Church, yet are we not bound with like Faith to believe, that Pope Leo, and Pope Clement are the True successors of Peter. 
Matthae. 3.  john the baptist said rightly unto the Phariseis, that likewise made vaunts of their Succession, Never say, Abraham is your Father. For God is able even of these stones to raise up Children unto Abraham. 
Chrysostom. In Opere Imperficto. Homi. 43. Dist. 41. Multi. Gregori. Nazian. In Sanctum Lavacrum.  Chrysostom saith: Non locus Sanctificat hominem, sed homo locum: Nec Cathedra facit Sacerdotem, sed Sacerdos Cathedram: The place sanctifieth not the Man, but the Man sanctifieth the Place: Neither doth the Chair make the Priest, but the Priest maketh the Chair. Nazianzene saith: Non locorum est Gratia, sed Spiritus: The grace of God goeth not by Place, but by the Holy Ghost.  
Chrysostom saith: Omnis Christianus, qui suscipit Verbum Petri, fit Thronus Petri: 
Chrysost. In Mat. Homi. 33.  et Petrus sedet in eo: Every Christian man, that receiveth the word of Peter, is made Peter's Chair: and S. Peter resteth in him.  
But here have you found out a foul contradiction in our words. Who is he, say you, whom ye call the Prince of the world? Not the Pope, M. harding: lest ye should happily be deceived: notwithstanding, your Fellows have so often told us, 
In sexto. li. 3. Tituil. 16. ca unica.  Papa rotius Orbis obtinet Principatum: The Pope hath the princehood of all the world.  
The Emperors Majesty we find oftentimes entitled by this name: But your Pope's Holiness, so entitled, we find never: unless it be in some certain late Decrees, and Gloss of his own. All be it, you of late have much abated the Emperors Honour, and have made him only the Pope's man. For thus ye say: Imperator (Occidentis) est Procurator, sive Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae: 
Dist. 98. Si Imperator. In Gloss.  The Emperor (of the west) is the proctor, or Steward of the Church of Rome.  
Yet, 
Chrysostom. Ad Popul. Antiochen. Homi. 2.  Chrysostom saith, Imperator est Summitas, & Caput omnium super terram hominum: The Emperor is the Top, and Head of all men upon the Earth. In the Council of Chalcedon, the Emperor is called, Dominus universi Mundi: 
Concil. Chalce. Actio. 1. In nomine.  The Lord of the Whole World.  
Perhaps ye will say, The State of the empire is now impoverished: And therefore the Emperor hath lost his Title. Yet your own Doctors, & Glosers could have told you: 
Extra de Maiorita. & Obedien. unam sanctam. In Gloss.  jura communia dicunt, quòd Imperator est Dominus Mundi: Notwithstanding the decay of the empire, The Common Laws say, that the Emperor is the Lord of the World. Rob. Hol●ote, speaking of the Emperor of Germany, saith thus: Hic est Rex Regum, cui omnes subditae sunt Nationes, & Populi, 
Holcote, In Sapien. Lectio. 199. Otho Irisingensis  etc. The Emperor is the King of Kings, unto whom all Nations, and Countries be in subjection. The Romans of late years wrote thus unto the Emperor Conradus: Excellentissimo, & Praeclarissimo Vrbis, & Oibis totius O●mino, etc. Unto the most excellent, 
The Emperor the Lord of the world  and most Noble Emperor, the Lord both of the City, and also of all the whole World. Therefore, M. harding, to move this vain quarrel, without some cause, it was great folly.  
Councils, ye say, In old times were holden by Authority of the Pope. For proof whereof, ye allege Socrates in the eight book, and the second Chapter: But Word, or Sentence, ye allege none. How be it, it was a great oversight, to allege the Eighth Book of Socrates, whereas Socrates himself never wrote but Seven, and so far to overleap your author. notwithstanding, this small error may well be dissembled amongst so many. How be it, touching the thing itself, ye may as easily find it in the Eighth Book of Socrates, that never was written, as else where. For in deed amongst all, that ever he wrote, this thing certainly, that you allege, he wrote never.    

The Apology, Cap. 12. Division, 5. & Ca 13. Divi. 1.  
And, although the modesty, and mildness of the Emperor Ferdinando be so great, that he can bear this wrong, because peradventure he understandeth not well the Pope's packing, yet ought not the Pope of his holiness to offer him that wrong, nor to claim an other man's right, as his own.  
But hereto some will reply: The Emperor in deed called Councils at that time, ye speak of, because the Bishop of Rome was not yet grown so great, as he is now: but yet the Emperor did not then sit together with the Bishops in Council, or once bare any stroke with his Authority in their consultations. I answer, nay, that it is not so. For, as witnesseth Theodorete, the Emperor Constantine, sat not only together with them in the council at Nice, but gave also advise to the Bishops, how it was best to try out the matter by the Apostles, and prophets writings, as appeareth by these his own words. In disputation (saith he) of matters of Divinity, we have set before us to follow, the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost. For the Evangelists, and the Apostles works, and the prophets sayings show us sufficiently, what opinion we ought to have of the will of God.  

M. harding.  
For the sitting of Emperors in Councils, you treat a common place not necessary. No man ever denied, but Emperors may sit in them. we acknowledge two sorts of setting: one for the assessors, an other for the judge 
* Untruth For Cusanus saith, invenio Imperatores in Cōcil●●s judicia fec sse. Read the Answer.  No Emperor ever sat as a judge in Council: but many, both Emperors in person, and their lieutenants for them have sitten, as being ready to assist and defend that, 
In vita Constant. lib. 3. Theodorit. Lib. 1. ca 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  which the Bishops had judged and decreed.  
What manner a seat great Constantine had in the first Council at Nice, Eusebius in his life, and Theodoritus doth declare. After that all the Bishops were set in their seats, to the number of 318 in came the Emperor last with a small company. 
‡ Untruth enclosed. For this low little Chair was all of beaten gold, and was let in the highest place of the Council.  A low little chair being set for him in the midst, he would not sit down, before the Bishops had reverently signified so much unto him, and as Theodoritus writeth, not before he had desired the Bishops to permit him so to do. Now think you that the Supreme head of the Church should have 
* Vain folly. For the Prince never cometh into the Parliament House, before the lords b● set  come in last, and have sitten 
* Untruth. For S●zomen saith, ●●at thro●u●, ille ●●ximus, Salios omnes superaus.  beneath his subjects, and have stayed to sit, until they had as it were given him leave?  
Neither consulted he with the Bishops, 
Constantine in the council of Nice.  but required them to consult of the matters, they came for, as Theodorite witnesseth. Neither spoke he there so generally as you report, nor framed his tale in that sort as you feign, 
‡ Untruth evident. For Cassiodorus expoundeth it thus, Quid de Divina Lege sapere debeamus.  universally of the will of God, ‡ but of the Godhead, saying, that the books of the Gospels, and of the Apostles, and the Oracles of the Prophets do plainly teach us, what we ought to think of the Godhead, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. For the controversy about which the Arians made so much ado, was touching the equality of Godhead in Christ, and his consubstantiality with God the Father. And by those words and other, which there he uttered, he took not upon him to define, or judge, but only to exhort them, to agree together in one Faith. For among those Bishop's certain there were, that favoured the Heresy of Arius. Such examples you bring for defence of your part, as make much against you. Not that you delight in making a rod for yourself, but because you have no better: and somewhat must you needs say, lest the stage you play your part on, should stand still.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Emperors, ye say, sat in Councils, as Assessors only, but not as judges: That is to say, they sat by the Bishops, & held theirpeace, & told the clock, & said nothing. Yet your Doctors say, Assessor Episcopi non potest esse Laicus: The Assessoure of a Bishop may not be a Laieman. 
De Rescriptis. Statutum. §. Assessorem. Geminianus. Euseb. In vita Constant. Ora. 3.  But, touching the matter itself, Eusebius, that was always near about the Emperor Constantine, & wrote his life, and was present at the Council, saith thus: Constantinus, quasi Communis quidam Episcopus à Deo constitutus, Ministrorum Dei Synodos convocavit: Nec dedignatus est adesse, & consider in medio illorum, consorsque fieri ipsorum, etc. Constantine, as if he had been a Common Bishop appoited by God, called together Councils of God's Ministers: and disdeigned not himself to sit in the mids amongst them, and to be partaker of their doings. 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb. eodem loco.  Again, Constantinus himself saith thus: Ego intereram Concilio, tanquam unus ex vobis: I was present at the Council amongst you, as one of you. Again Eusebius saith, unus, & unicus Deus instituit Constantinum Ministrum suum, & Doctorem Pietatis omnibus terris: The One, and Only God hath appointed Constantine to be his Minister, and the doctor of true Godliness unto all Nations. And Theodoretus saith, Laudatissimus Rex Apostolicas curas suscipiebat animo suo: 
Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 24.  At Pontifices, non solùm non ae dificare Ecclesiam, sed etiam illus fundamenta labefactare conabantur: The good Emperor had apostolic Cares in his heart: But the Bishops did not only not build up the Church of God, but also overthrew the foundations of the same.  
And again Eusebius saith: 
Euseb. In vita Constanti. Ora. 1. Nicepho. in praefatione ad Emmanuelem.  Constantinus erat Vocalissimus Dei praeco, & quasi Seruator, ac Medicus animarum: Constantine the Emperor was a most Clear Preacher of God, and as it were, the saviour, and Physician of Souls. In this sort Nicephorus writeth unto the Emperor Emmanuel Palaeologus: Tu es Dux Professionis Fidei nostrae, etc. Your Majesty is the Captain of the Profession of our Faith: your Majesty hath restored the Catholic, and universal Church. Your Majesty hath reformed the Temple of God from Merchants, and exchangers of the Heavenly Doctrine, and from Heretics, by the word of Truth.  
Ye say, When the Bishops were set, in came the Emperor last with a small company. 
Theodoret. li. 1. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Whereof ye would have us to gather, that he came only as somme inferior person, and not as a judge. How be it, Theodoretus saith, Constantinus jussit Episcopos ingredi: Constantine Commanded the Bishops to go in.  
And Eusebius saith: Sedit tota Synodus reverenter, ut par fuit, cum silentio expectans adventum Principis: The whole Council sat in reverent, and comely order, quietly, and in silence looking for the Prince's coming.  
This is no good proof, M. harding, that the Emperor in the Council was inferior to the Bishops. Nay, the Bishops were commanded to take their places, to sit in silence, and to wait for the Emperors coming, as his Subjects. Again he saith: Signo, quo adventus Imperatoris indicatus est, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  dato, omnibus exuergentibus, ipse deinde ingressus est medius, tanquàm aliquis Dei coelestis Angelus: When the watch word was given, that the Emperor was come, the Bishops stood up from their places, and his Majesty passed along through the mids of them, as if he had been an Angel of God.  
But the Emperor, ye say, sat upon a little low stool, and therein showed himself inferior to the Bishops. Yea, M. harding, but Eusebius saith, that the same little low stool was made of whole beaten gold: 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  And therein, I trow, he was somewhat above the Bishops.  
Ye say, he sat allow, and in the mids of the Bishops: and hereof ye conclude, he was their inferior. So julius Caesar, notwithstanding he were the Emperor of Rome, yet, when he came into the College of poets, he was well contented, to be placed in the lowest room: And yet was he not therefore thiere inferior.  
But, touching the Emperor Constantine's place in the Council, Eusebius saith thus: 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  Accessit ad summum gradum ordinum: He went up to the highest rising of all the benches. Sozomenus saith: Imperator pervenit ad Caput Concilij: & sedit in Throno quodam, quem ipse sibi fecerat. Erat autem Thronus ille Maximus, & alios omnes superans: The Emperor went up to the head, or highest place of the Council: and sat down in a Throne of estate, that he had prepared for himself. But this Throne was very great, and far passed all the rest. In the mean season, the Pope's Legate sat, as it is said before, neither in the First place, nor in the second, nor in the third, but in the fourth. Hereby it seemeth, to appear plainly, that Constantinus the Emperor had his place in the Council above the Bishops.  
notwithstanding, sithence that time the Pope hath determined, it must now be otherwise. 
Ceremoniarium. li. 1. Sect. 14. ca 2.  His order is this, as it hath been alleged before: Sedes Imperatoris parabitur, etc. The Emperors Seat shallbe prepared next unto the Pope's Seat, and shall have two steps joined unto the same: but neither so broad, nor so long, as be the Popes. It shallbe appareled with cloth of gold: but Canopy ever the head it shall have none. 
Et advertendum, quoed locus, ubi sedet Imperator, non sit altior loco, ubi tenet pedes Pontifex.  How be it, this thing is specially to be marked, that the place, whereupon the Emperor sitteth, may be no higher, than the place, where the Pope setteth his Feet. Thus we see, the Emperor is allowed, to sit at the Pope's foot stool: but in any case to mount no higher.  
The Emperor, ye say, stood still (no doubt, with Cap in hand) and durst not sit down without leave: And thereby testified, himself to be inferior to the Bishops. These cold Conclusions will hardly serve. For Traianus, being the Emperor of Rome, was contented himself to stand afoot, and, for honour's sake, commanded the consuls to sit down. Yet was he not therefore inferior in dignity to the consuls.  
Helena the Empress, 
Ruffinus. li. 1. ca 7.  appareled herself like a Servant, and ministered unto the Holy Virgins, and gave them water to their hands, as if in deed she had been their Servant: yet was she not therefore inferior unto the Virgins.  
The same Emperor Constantine at the time of the Sermons, 
Euseb. In vita Constant. Ora. 4.  stood upright, and would not sit: for the reverence, that he bore to the Word of God. Yet was he not inferior to the Preacher. This was that good Emperors modesty, and Humility, M. harding: but not his duty. It were wisdom for Princes, to take heed, they commit not overmutche to your hands. For, what so ever they once yield of mere Courtesy, straight way ye claim it, as your own.  
How be it, touching the Emperors sitting in the Council, it was far otherwise, than you report it. Sozomenus saith: Imperator resedit in Throno, qui illi paratus fuerat: & Synodus jussa est sedere: The Emperor sat down in his Chair of estate provided for him: 
Sozome li. 1. ca 19 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  and (then) the Council was Commanded to sit down. Hereby it appeareth, the Emperor needed not the bishops leave: but rather gave leave to the Bishops.  
No doubt, that Godly, and Mild Prince, being in that Reverend assembly, bore himself with much Reverence. And therefore Eusebius saith, He sat not down, 
Euseb. In vita Constanti. Ora. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  before the Bishops had beckoned unto him. But he addeth withal, Post Imperatorem, idem fecerunt omnes: (Not before, but) After that the Emperor was set, they sat down all together.  
Now, M. harding, if he that sat first in the Council, were the Head of the Church, as you seem to say, then may I reason thus: The Pope, or his Legate in that Council sat not First: Ergo, the Pope then was not Head of the Church.  
Again, The Emperor in that Council sat first: Ergo, by your own Conclusion, the Emperor was the Head of the Church. Certainly, the Pope himself saith plainly, The Emperor Constantine was the Precedent, or Ruler of the Nicene Council. His words be these: Constantinus Praesidens Sanctae synodo, 
12. Quae. 1. Fitturam. Gregor.  quae apud Nicaeam congregata est: Constantinus the Emperor, being Presidente of the Holy Council, that was kept at Nice. These be not our words, but the Popes, registered even in his own Records. Therefore, I trust, ye will not refuse to give them credit.  
But you say, The Emperor determined, and defined nothing. Yet the Emperor himself, 
Euseb. In vita Constant. Orat. 2.  contrary to your saying, saith thus: Ego suscepi, & perfeci res salutiferas, persuasus Verbo tuo: O Lord, I took in hand, and brought to pass wholesome things, being persuaded by thy Word.  
And again, writing hereof unto the Bishops of sundry Churches, he saith: Ego vobiscum interfui, tanquàm unus ex vobis. Non enim negaverim, conseruum me vestrum esse: 
Euseb. In vita Constan Orat. 3.  Qua de re mihi maximè gratulor: I was present at the Council with you, as one of you. For I cannot deny me self to be your fellow Servant. In which thing I most rejoice.  
Likewise again he saith: Ego Nicaeam contraxi magnum numerum Episcoporum: 
Socra. li. 1. ca 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Cum quibus, cùm essem unus ex vobis, & Conseruus vester vehementer esse cuperem, etiam ipse suscepi inquisitionem Veritatis: I caused a great company of Bishops to come to Nice: with whom together I took in hand the Examination of the Truth, being me self one of you, and much desiring to be therein your Fellow Servant.  
Likewise saith Eusebius, Imperator, quasi juculentam facem accendens, ne quae occultae Erroris reliquiae superessent, 
Euseb. In vita Constan. Orat. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  oculo Regio circumspexit: The Emperor, as having enkindled a great flame, looked well about with his Princely Eye, that no privy remnants of error should reaste behind.  
The Bishops in the same Nicene Council, being at variance amongst themselves, offered up their Books of accusation, not unto the Pope, or to his Legates, 
Socrat. li. 1. ca 8.  of whom they had then no great regard, but unto the Emperor. Neither did the Emperor put over their quarrels unto the Pope's judgement, but unto the judgement of God.  
Again, the same Emperor Constantine saith, If any Bishop wickedly offend, by the hand of God's servant, that is to say, by my hand, he shallbe punished.  
To be short, 
Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 19  Cardinal Cusanus saith: Sciendum est, quòd in universalibus octo Concilijs, ubi Imperatores interfuerunt, & non Papa, semper invenio Imperatores, & judices suos cum Senatu Primatum habuisse, 
Cardinal. Cusae. De praesidentia.  & officium Praesidentiae per interlocutiones, & ex consensu Synodi, sine mandato, conclusiones, & judicia fecisse. Et non reperitur instantia in octo Concilijs, praeter quam in tertia Actione Concilij Chalcedonensis: We must know, that in the Eight General Councils, where the Emperors were present, and not the Pope, I evermore find, that the Emperors, and their judges, with the Senate had the Government, and Office of Presidence, by hearing, and conferring of matters: and that they made Conclusions, and judgements, with the consent of the Council, and without any further Commission. And there is no manner instance, or exception to be found in the first Eight Councils, saving only in the third Action of the Council of Chalcedon.  
Here ye see plainly, by the Authority of Cardinal Cusanus, one of your own special Doctors, that in the Eight first General Councils, the Emperor was Presidente, and not the Pope.  
Where as the Emperor willed thee Bishops to conclude their matters by the Apostolical, and Prophetical Scriptures, He speaketh not, say you, so generally, as we report him, nor frameth his tale in that sort, as we sane, universally of the will of God, but of the Godhedde. For, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in your fancy signifieth only the Substance, and Nature of God, and not Goddess Will, or his Religion. Here, M. harding, it were some point of Learning, to know, what skilful Greek Reader told you this tale. 
Tripar. Histo. lib. 2. cap. 5.  Verily, Cassiodorus, in plain wise, translateth it thus: Euangelici, & Apostolici libri erudiunt nos, quid de Sacra Lege sapiamus: The Books of the Evangelists, and Apostles, teach us, what we ought to think (not only of the Substance, and Nature of God, but also) of the Holy Law.  
Therefore Theodoretus addeth further these words: Accipiamus Explicationes quaestionum nostrarum ex dictis Sancti Spiritus: 
Theodoret. li. 1. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Let us take the resolution of our questions, out of the words of the Holy Ghost. And immediately before he saith: De rebus Divinis disputantes, praescripram habemus Doctrinam Sancti Spiritus: In our Disputations (not only of the Godhedde, but also) of Godly matters, we have laid before us the Doctrine of the Holy Gospel. In like sense S. Hilary saith: Non est relictus hominum eloquijs de Dei rebus alius, praeterquam Dei Sermo. 
Hilari. De Trinitat. li. 7. De rebus Dei. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Omnia reliqua & arcta, & conclusa, & impedita sunt, & obscura: In matters, touching God, there is no speech left unto men, but only the word of God. Al other Authorities be short, and narrow, and dark, and troublesome. Believe them not henceforth therefore, M. harding, that tell you, that, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, signifieth only the Substance, and Nature of God's Divinity. For, as ye may easily see, your Gloze is vain, and fighteth directly against the Text.    

The Apology, Cap. 13. Division. 2.  
The Emperor Theodosius (as saith Socrates) did not only sit amongst the Bishops, but also ordered the whole argueinge of the cause, and tore in pieces the Heretics Books, and allowed for good the judgement of the Catholics.  

M. harding.  
It is wonder to see, how these men abuse the Ecclesiastical histories. Whereas they talk a little before of the sitting of Emperors in general Councils, a man would think, that now also Theodosius had been said to have sitten among Bishops 
* As if a private Council, were no Council.  in some general Council. But there is no such matter. 
Hist. tripar. lib. 9 ca 19  Theodosius the Emperor conferred with Nectarius the Bishop of Constantinople, how all Christian men might be brought to an unity in Faith. And after that Nectarius had learned of Sisinnius a great Clerk, the best way to be, if all the heads of each Heresy and Sect, might be induced to be judged by the old Fathers and Doctors of the Church: the godly Emperor hearing this advise, caused both the Heretics, and Catholics also, to write each of them such things, as each of them had to say for his belief. And after prayer made, reading over all the writings, 
‡ Fond folly. As though the Emperor could condemn the Heretics or allow the Catholics, without judgement.  he rejected the Arians, the Macedonians, and the Eunomians, ‡ embracing only their sentence, who agreed upon the Consubstantiality of the son of God. Here (say these Defenders) Theodosius did not only sit amongst the Bishops, but also ordered the whole arguing of the cause, tearing the papers of the Heretics, and allowing the judgement of the Catholics. To which objection I make this answer. First, that Theodosius here took counsel of Nectarius the Bishop, and followed it: secondly, that he intended not to judge, whether opinion of all the Sects were truer, 
* A worthy reason. The Emperor sought means to abandon Heresies: Ergo, He judged not, whether part was the truer.  but only sought how to rid the Church of controversies. Otherwise he would not only have taken counsel of Nectarius the Catholic Bishop, but also of the Arians, Macedonians, and Eunomians. For he is not a right judge, that calleth one side only to him, and in judgement is ruled by it. If then it be plain, that the Emperor only consulted with Catholics, it is no less plain, 
‡ Untruth, Contrary to the plain story.  that he sat not judge upon the Catholics. What did he then? Verily he intended to execute that judgement, which the Bishops had pronounced at Nice, and therefore he conferred only with men of that side. And because he was instructed, that by disputation no good should come, he chose this way, to make all to write their opinions. Not that he minded now to learn his Faith out of their writings, sith he had learned that long before, and professed the same in his Baptism: but he sought a way, whereby to put all Heretics to silence. Therefore, having read all the writings, and having made his prayer to God for grace, 
* And how could he make choice without judgement?  to choose the better side, 
jacob. 1. 1. Cor. 6.  which also he made not doubting of his Faith (for else he were an Infidel, and unworthy to be a judge, even in the Temporal matters among Christians) but partly he declared, that all goodness is to be asked of God, 
‡ Thus M. harding maketh the Emperor a dissembling Hypocrite.  partly he would the Heretics to understand, that he wonted not to work with affection, but with the fear of God. Thus having prayed and readen the writings, he executed the judgement of the Nicene Council, and rejected those Heretics.  
Now to return to the words of the Apology, how say they, that the Emperor not only sat among Bishops, but also causae disceptationi praefuit, was chief Ruler and moderator of the reasoning, and debating of the matter? They cannot say thus, as of a Council, whereof they talk. 
‡ A fond cavil. It was a private Council of sundry Bishops, and the judgement thereof was specially directed by the Emperor.  For there was no Council indicted, not only by the Pope, but neither by the Emperor, nor by any other archbishop. ‡ It was a private calling together of certain heads of each Sect, and not a solemn ordinary council. If there were no Council of Bishops, no sitting of Bishops: if no sitting, no presidence at al. How then was Theodosius Precedent, and judge of Ecclesiastical causes?  
If we shall report the thing, as it was in truth done, only Theodosius used a politic way, to put Heretics to silence. 
In acts concilij Aquileiensis.  Other judgement he took not upon him, as he that protested always, that Spiritual causes, and controursies of Doctrine could not better be decided, then by Bishops. For which saying, S. Ambrose praised him. So that we are sure of Theodosius, that he never meant to intermeddle with Ecclesiastical matters, 
* Thus the Emperor is become the Bishops man.  otherwise then to execute the bishops Decrees.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, ye say, it is a wonder, to see, how these men abuse the Ecclesiastical stories. It was a Private Council, ye say, whereat Theodosius was present, and not a General: As if this poor help were sufficient, to salve the matter: or, as if a Private Council, were no Council: Or, as if an Emperor might sit as a judge in private Councils, but not in General. The story in brief is this, Theodosius the Emperor, 
Theodosius judgeth Ecclestical causes.  the better to bring his Churches into Unity, Commanded an Assembly of the bishops, and best Learned, to appear before him, and each part to write a several Confession of his Faith, that he himself might judge between them, which Faith were the best. Having received their writings, he willed Public Prayers to be made, 
Sozomen li. 7. ca 12.  and also both openly, & privately prayed himself, that it might please God, 
Socrat. li. 5. ca 10.  to assist him with his Holy Spirit, and to make him able to judge justly.  
Then he perused, and considered each Confession asunder by itself: allowed only the Catholics: and Condemned the Confessions, that were written by the Arians, and Eunomians, and tore them in pieces. This is the true report of the story, M. harding. Whatsoever ye have added hereunto, as your manner is, it is your own. Now, whether the Emperor Theodosius took upon him, to Hear, and Determine Ecclesiastical Causes of Religion. or no, I report me to your own indifferent judgement.  
But ye will say, The Emperor presumed not, to judge any thing of himself: but was wholly ruled by the Bishops, as the executoure of their wills. And hereof, ye say, ye are well assured. Thus by your handling, ye make the Prince only your Bishop's man: to strike blindly, whomsoever your Bishop shall Command: to Condemn, to Deprive, to Spoil, to Kill his own Subjects: not of any judgement, or Knowledge, but only upon the doubtful Credit, and at the pleasure of your Bishop. So simple ye make this Godly Emperor in his dealing. He willed the Congregation to pray: He prayed himself, that God would direct him with his Spirit, and give him wisdom, to discern the Truth: He Conferred the Confessions: He weighed each Reason: He allowed one side for true and godly: All the rest he Condemned for false, and wicked. And yet, ye say, ye are sure of Theodosius, that he intended not to judge, whether of all these Sects were the truer. And so, by your discretion, he both Allowed, and Condemned without judgement, he knew not, what.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 1.  
In the Council of Chalcedon a Civil Magistrate Condemned for Heretics, by the Sentence of his own mouth, the Bishops, Dioscorus, Juvenal, & Thalassius, and gave judgement, to put them down from their Dignities in the Church.  

M. harding.  
Where true, and good matter wanteth, for defence of this cause, these men care not what they bring, so they make a show of some Learning, to deceive the unlearned. first, for condemnation of Heretics, by sentence of a Civil Magistrate, they allege the name of the long Council of Chalcedon, not showing in what Action or part thereof it may be found. True it is, that all these three are named in that Council, Dioscorus, Iwenalis', and Thalassius. 
* Untruth enclosed, standing in ignorance. For if M. Hard. had read the Council, he might have sound it.  But that all three were condemned, we find not. Much less, that were condemned by any Civil Magistrate, do we find. The condemnation of Dioscorus archbishop of Alexandria, was pronounced by the Legates of the Pope of Rome, in form as followeth.  
Paschasinus, 
Actio. 3.  having asked the consent of the Father's present in the Council to the condemnation of Dioscorus, after his faults rehearsed, with his two fellows Lucentius Bishop of Tusculum, and Bonifacius Priest of the great Church of Rome, said: The most holy, and blessed archbishop of the great, and elder Rome Leo, by us, and by this present holy Synod, with the thrice most blessed and worthy of all praise, Peter the Apostle, 
‡ This was spoken even like the Pope's Legate. For S. Paul saith, Christ was the Rock, etc.  who is the rock and ‡ highest top of the Catholic Church, and who is the ‡ foundation of the right Faith, hath deprived Dioscorus, as well of the dignity of his Bishopric, 
Dioscorus, Iwenasis, Thalassius.  as also of his Priestly ministery. This was the sentence pronounced by the Pope's Legates, in the name of the Bishop of Rome, under the Authority of Peter. Which sentence the whole Council allowed. This being true, how did the Civil Magistrate condemn Dioscorus? Was then the Bishop of Lilybaeum, or the Pope, in whose name he gave sentence, a Civil Magistrate? 
* This is the patience of M hardings Spirit. When he shall read the Council, and see his own error, he will be colder.  What is impudency, what is licentious lying, what is deceitful dealing, if this be not?  
Of Iwenalis' Archbishop of Jerusalem, and Thalassius archbishop of Caesaria in Cappadocia, thus much I say. They might well have a rebuke for misusinge themselves in the second Council at Ephesus, 
Actio. 1. ex nova translat.  where they sat, like judges, 
‡ Untruth, vain and childish. For then there belonged no such Authority to the See of Rome.  without authority of thee See of Rome (which, as Lucentius said in the Synod of Chalcedon, was never orderly done, neither was it lawful to be done) they might, I say, take a rebuke for so presuming besides the Pope's authority: but for as much as they 
* Untruth, shameless above measure. For they never asked pardon, for sitting without the Pope's Authority.  maintained not thiere fact, but among other Bishops of the Eastcried out. Omnes peccavimus, Omnes veniam postulamus: We have all sinned, We all beseech pardonne: Yea for as much as Iwenalis' rejected the fault upon Elpidius, who did not command Eusebius the accuser of Eutyches to come in, and Thalassius said, he was not cause thereof: it may well be, they were pardonned, although the honourable judges, and Senate said unto them: In judicio Fidei non est defensio: In a judgement of Faith, this is no excuse. But in case they were deposed, 
‡ M. Harding is well assured, before he know.  then are we sure, 
* manifest untruth Read the Answer.  it was not done by the Civil Magistrates otherwise, then that they might allow, and execute the sentence of Deposition before geeuen.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
If the Council of Chalcedon seem over long, with better reading ye may make it shorter. That Dioscorus, Iwenalis', and Thalassius were all three condemned in that Council, that, ye say, ye find not. How be it, if ●ee had sought it better, ye might soon have found it. One of your own Friends of Louvain saith, that herein ye were toomutche overseen. The very words, truly recorded in the Council, are these: Videtur nobis justum esse, eidem poenae Dioscorum Reverendum Episcopum Alexandria, 
C●pus. Dialo. 1. pag. 28.  & Iwenalem Reverendum Episcopum Hierosolymorum, & Thalassium Reverendum Episcopum Caesariae Cappadociae subiacere: 
Concil. Chalice. Act. 1. pag. 831.  & à Sancto Concilio, secundum Regulas, ab Episcopali dignitate fieri alienos: Unto us it seemeth right, that Dioscorus, the Reverend Bishop of Alexandria, and Iwenalis', the Reverend Bishop of Jerusalem, and Thalassius, the Reverend Bishop of Caesaria in Cappadocia, should be put to the same pounishement: and by the holy Council, according to the Canons, should be removed from their Episcopal dignities. 
Euagrius. li. 2. cap. 4.  The which words ye might also have found fully reported in Euagrius.  
Likewise also saith Pope Leo, touching the same: De nominibus Dioscori, Iwenalis', 
Leo Epist. 40. Ad Anatolium.  & Eustachij (vel potiùs, Thalassijs) add Sacrum Altar non recitandis, dilectionem tuam hoc decet custodire: touching the names of Dioscorus, Iwenalis', and Eustachius (or rather, Thalassius) not to be rehearsed at the Holy Altar (which was the Communion Table) ye must keep this order.  
But ye say, Notwithstanding these Bishops were condemned in the Council, yet the Civil or Lay judges condemned them not. For they were there (ye say) only to see good order, and to keep peace. This, M. harding, is your own only idle gheaste, without any manner further Authority, only grounded upon yourself. Certainly, the words of the Council be plain: Gloriosissimi judices, & amplissimus Senatus dixerunt: The most Noble judges, and most worthy Senate said. Likewise saith Euagrius, 
Concil. chalce. Actio. 1. evag. li. 2. ca 4.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: The Lords of the emperors Council decreed these things.  
Neither were the Civil judges then so scrupulous, to think, they might not deal in Cases of Religion, as it may well appear by their words. For thus they say: Gloriosissimi sudices, & Amplissimus Senatus dixerunt. De Recta, & Catholica Fide, 
Concil. Chalce. Act. pag. 831  perfectiùs sequenti die, convenienti Concilio, diligentiorem Examinationem fieri opottere, perspicimus: 
Dioscorus, Iwenalis', Thalassius.  The most Noble judges, and most worthy Senate said, We see, that, touching the Right Catholic Faith, the next day, when the Council shall meet, there must be had a more diligent Examinatione.  
And when the matters were concluded, and published, the Bishops of the East broke out into favourable shoots, in this sort: justum, & Rectum judicium Vita longa Senatui: Multi anni Imperatori: just, and Right is this judgement: Long life unto the Senate: Many years unto the Emperor. For in all cases, as well Ecclesiastical, as Temporal, the Emperor was judge over al. What so ever the Council had determined, without the Emperors consent, it had no force. And therefore both the Bishops, and other Temporal judges in the Council, used oftentimes to suspend, & to stay their Decrees in this sort: Videtur nobis justum, 
Council Chalced. Actio. 1. pag. 831. Euag●i. li. 2. ca 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  si placuerit Divinissimo, & Pijssimo Domino nostro: Unto us it seemeth right, if it shall also like our most virtuous, and most Godly Lord (the Emperor). In the end, they conclude thus: Omnibus, quae acta sunt, ad Sacrum Apicem referendis: So that all our doings be remitted to the Emperors Majesty. All which words are borrowed, as the recte, out of the Ecclesiastical story of Euagrius.  
Ye say, lwenalis, and Thalassius might well have a rebuke, for sitting like judges in the second Council of Ephesus, without Authority of the Pope. O M. Harding, either ye are much deceived, and prefume to speak before ye know, which were great folly: or else ye speak directly against your knowledge, & Conscience, and willingly seek to deceive others: which were great wickedness. Verily, ye might easily have known, that these three Bishops were condemned, not for intruding upon the Pope's authority, as ye have imagined, but only for condemning other Godly Bishops, wickedly, and without cause. The words of the Council are plain: Gloriosissimi judices dixerunt, Vos quidem primitùs docuistis, quia per vim, 
Concil. Chalcedonen. Action. 1.  & necessitatem, in pura Charta Coacti estis subscribere ad damnationem Sanctae memoriae Flaviani. Orientales, &, qui cum ipsis erant. Reverendissimi Episcopi, clamaverunt, Omnes peccavimus: Omnes veniam postulamus: The most Nolse jud 〈◊〉 land, ye have here proved before us, that ye were driven by force, and violence, in a ●●anke paper to subscribe your names to the Condemnation of Flavianus of godly memory. The Bishops of the east, and other Reverend Bishops, that were with them, cried out, We have all offended: We all desire pardonne. This in deed was their fault, M. harding: All that you imagine of usurping the Pope's Authority, is but a fancy. For the Pope's Huge, and Universal Authority, whereby now he clamen●a the whole jurisdiction of all the world, at that time was not known.  
The same Council of Chalcedon maketh him Equal in Authority, and Dignity with the Bishop of Constantinople. 
Concil. Chalced. 〈…〉  The words be these: Sedi Senioris Romae, propter Imperium Civitatis illius, Patres consequenter Privilegia reddiderunt. Et cadem intentione permoti Centum quinquaginta Deo amantissimi Episcopi, aequa Sanctissimae Sedi Novae Romae Privilegia tribuerunt: rationabiliter iudicantes, Imperio, & Senatu Vrbem Ornatam, aequis Senioris Regiae Romae Priviulegijs frui, & in Ecclesiasticis, sicut illa, Maiestatem habere negotijs: Unto the See of the Old Rome, in consideration of the empire of that City, Our Fathers have accordingly geeven Privileges. And upon like consideration, the hundred and fifty godly Bishops have geeven equal, and like Privileges to the City of New Rome: (whereby is meant the City of Constantinople): For that they thought it reasonable, that the same City of Constantinople, being now adorned with empire and Senate, should also also have Privileges, Equal with Rome the Elder: and have the same Majesty, and Authority in Ecclesiastical affairs, that Rome hath.  
Thus, ye see, your Pope had not then a Power Peerless over all the World: but was made Like, and Even, and Equal in all respects to one of his Brethren. Therefore, if the Bishop of Rome were the Head of the Church, than was the Bishop of Constantinople likewise the Head of the Church. And if the Bishop of Rome's Power were Universal, then was the Bishop of Constantinoples' Power Universal, as well as his. For the Council alloweth as much Ecclesiastical Authority to the one Bishop, as to the other.  
Now, shortly to consider the whole substance of your talk, first, ye say, These three Bishops, Dioscorus, Iwenalis', and Thalassius were never condemned in the Council of Chalcedon: This, ye see, is One Untruth. secondly, ye say, The Civil Magistrate never condemned them. This is an Other Untruth. thirdly, ye say, Iwenalis', and Thalassius were rebuked for sitting as judges in Council without the Pope's Authority. These are two other Untruths. For neither had the Pope any such Prerogative at that time, nor was this the Cause of their Condemnation. And yet, as if ye would run us over with terror of words, ye cry out with a courage, what is Impudency, what is Licenceous Lying, what is deceitful dealing, if this be not?  
touching these fiery terms, M. harding, I dare not Answer you. But, as for Plain lying, without a difference, if ye know not, what it is, look through your own Books: & ye cannot fail of it. Verily, it is, to publish Untruths so largely, & so liberally, as you have done, only upon affiance of the simplicity, & ignorance of your Reader, without regard, or fear, of God, or Man.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 2.  
In the Chirde Council at Constantinople, Constantine a Civil Magistrate, did not only sit amongst the Bishops, but did also Subscribe with them. For, saith he, We have both read, & Subscribed.  

M. harding.  
The subscribing is not the matter, but the judging. Constantine subscribed to the Council, as now all Christian Princes, being required, aught to subscribe to the Tridentine Council. 
* A Vain Distinction.  But Constantine used not this stile, when he subscribed, Definiens subscripsi, I have subscribed with giving definittive sentence. 
‡ Untruth manifest. Read the Answer.  For so to subscribe, it appertained only to Bishops.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 3.  
In the second Council called Arausi canum, the Prince's Ambassadors, being Noble Men borne, not only spoke their mind, touching Religion, but set to their hands also, as well as the Bishops. For thus it is written in the later end of that Council: Petrus, Marcellinus, Felix, and Liberius, being Most Noble Men, and famous Lieurenantes, & Captains of France, & also Peers of the Realm, have given their consent, and ser to their hands. Further, Syagrius, Opilio, Pantagathus, Deodatus, Cariattho, and Marcellus, men of very great honour, have Subscribed.  

M. harding.  
what if all the laiemen of the world had subscribed by the word of consenting, or agreeing to the Bishop's decrees, each one writing thus, as in that case, the old manner was, consentiens subscripsi? What other thing is proved thereby, then that they thought it necessary to allow that, which Bishops had determined? 
The Temporal Magistrate Subscribeth in coucel.  Which we wish ye would do.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 4.  
If it be so then, that Lieutenants, Chief Captains, and Peers have had Authority to Subscribe in council, have not Emperors, and Kings the like Authority  

M. harding.  
Kings, and Queens, not only might, but aught to subscribe, when they are required.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here, M. harding, ye are driven to many shifts. some of you say, that Prince's Ambassadors, & Civil Magistrates had no right to Subscribe in Council, but only by licence, & sufferance of the Bishops. Some others have found out a certain difference in Subscriptions. The Bishop, ye say, Subscribed in one Form, & the Civil Magistrate in an other: The Bishop thus, Definiens Subscripsi, By giving my Definitive Sentence, I have Subscribed: The Lay Magistrate thus, Consentiens Subscripsi, giving Consent hereto, I have Subscribed. Thus have you found out a knot in a rush: & devised a Diversity without a Difference. Certainly in the Old councils there appeareth only one Form of Subscriptions, & no more. And afterward these Two Words, Definiens, and Consenriens, wherein you imagine so great a difference, were used indifferently, as well of Bishops, 
Consentiens Subscripsi. Conci. Chalced. Actio. 1. Pa. 780. Conc. Parisien. 1.  as of others: as each man was best affected. Sommetime the Bishop Subscribed, Consentiens: Sommetime the Laieman Subscribed, Definiens, without scruple. In the Council of Chalcedon it is written thus, Ego Dorotheus Episcopus Consensi, & Subscripsi: I Bishop Dorothee have Consented, & Subscribed. Likewise it is written in the Council of Parise, Ego Probianus Episcopus Bituricensis consensi, & Subscripsi: I Probiane the Bishop of Bourges have Consented, 
Marius Victorinus Contra Arianos, Lib. 2. Definiens Subscripsi. evag. Li. 2. Ca 4. Sozom li. 4. ca 16 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Aeneas Syluiut de Gestis Concil. Constantien. li. 1.  and Subscribed. Marius Victorinus saith, Nicenae Fidei multa Episcoporum milia Consenserunt: Many thousand Bishops Consented unto the Nicene Faith.  
Of the other side, the Lay Prince in Council hath had Authority, not only to Consent, and agree unto others, but also to Define, and Determine, and that in Cases of Religion, as by many evident Examples it may appear. Euagrius saith, as it is before alleged, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: They, that were of the Senate, or the Lords of the Council, Determined these things. Sozomenus saith, Imperator Constantinus jussit decem Episcopos Orientis, & totidem Occidentis, quos Synodus designasser, ad Aulam suam venire, & sibi exponere Decreta Concilij: ut ipse quoqque consideraret, an secundum Scripturas inter se convenissent: & de rebus agendis, quae optima viderentur, Determinaret: The Emperor Constantine commanded, that ten Bishops of the east, and ten of the west, chosen by the Council, should repair to his Court, and open unto him the Decrees of the Council: that his Majesty might consider, whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures: and that he might further, (not only Consent, or agree, but also) Determine, and Conclude, what were best to be done. Aeneas Silvius, which afterward was Pope Pius. 2. saith thus: Visum est Spiritui Sancto, & nobis: unde apparet, alios, quàm Episcopos, in Concilijs habuisse vocem Decidentem: It seemeth good to the Holy Ghost, and to us. Hereby it appeareth, that some other, beside Bishops, had a voice Definitive in Councils. And again he saith, Nec ego cuiusuis Episcopi mendacium, 
Eodem Loco.  quamuis ditissimi, Veritati praeponam Pauperis Presbyteri. Nec dedignari debet Episcopus, si aliquando ignarus, & rudis, sequacem non habeat multitudinem: Neither w●l I set more by any bishops lie, be he never so rich, than I would set by any priests Truth, be he never so poor. Neither more the ignorant, and unlearned Bishop disdain, if he see the people va willing to follow him.  
Gerson saith, judicium, & Conclusio Fidei, licet Authoritatiue spectent ad Praelatos, & Doctores, spectare tamen possunt ad alios, quàm Theologos Deliberatio, sicut & Cognitio super his, quae Fidem respiciunt. Ita, ut ad Laicos etiam hoc possit extendi: 
Gerson, Quae veritates sint credendae.  & plùs aliquando, quàm ad multos Clericorum: notwithstanding the judgement, and Conclusion of Faith belong by Authority unto Bishops, and Doctors, yet as well the Deliberation hereof, as also the knowledge, and judgement, concerning matters, that touch the Faith, may belong unto others too besides the Divines, or Doctoures, and Professors of Divinity. Yea, it more sometimes be extended even unto the laymen: And more sometimes unto them, then unto many Priests.  
The Emperor justinian in Ecclesiastical Causes, oftentimes useth these words, 
Authen Collaet. Tit. 6. Quomodo opor. Episcop.  Definimus, Mandamus, lubemus, etc. We Determine, we Conclude, we Command, we Bid. touching Bishops, he writeth thus, Definimus, ut nullus Deo amabilium Episcoporum foris a sua Ecclesia, plus quàm per totum annum abbess audeat: We Define, or Determine, that none of the Godly Bishops shall dare to be absent from his Church, more than by the space of one whole year. Here, ye see, the Temporal Prince, in an Ecclesiastical Cause saith, Definimus. To be short, Pope Nicolas himself saith, writing unto the Emperor Michael, Vbinam legistis, 
This 96. Vbinam.  Imperatores Antecessores vestros Synodalibus Contentionibus interfuisse? Nisi fortè in quibusdam, ubi de Fide tractatum est: quae universalis est: quae omnium Communis est: quae non solùm ad Clericos, verùm etiam ad Laicos, & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos: Where have you read, that your Predecessors, being Emperors, were ever Present at our Disputations in Councils? unless happily it were in certain cases, whereas matter was moved touching the Faith. For Faith is Universal, and Common to all: and pertaineth not only unto Priests, but also unto Laiemen: and generally, and thoroughly to all Christians Thus ye see, M. harding, by the Pope's own judgement, that Cases, and Disputations of the Faith, belong as well to the Temporal Prince, as to the Pope.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 5.  
Truly, there had been no need to handle so plain a matter, as this is, with so many words, & so at length, if we had not to do with those men, who for a desire they have to strive, and to win the mastery, use of course to deny all things, be they never so clear, yea, the very same, which they presently see, and behold with their own eyes.  

M. harding.  
The matter, ye speak of, is so clear, that from the beginning of the world to this day, 
* Untruth evident, as by sundry examples i● shall appear.  no secular Prince can be named, who by the ordinary power of a Prince, without the gift of prophecy, or special revelation, did laudably intermeddle with Religion, as a judge and ruler of spiritual causes. The reason thereof is clear. Religion is an order of Divine worshipping, belonging to God only: whereupon no man hath power, but he that is called thereto by God. He is called in the judgement of men, who can show his calling outwardly, as by consecration, and imposition of hands. Priests and Bishops are called to be the dispensators of the mysteries of God. 
Mat. 16. & 18.  In that consecration the keys of knowledge, and discretion, the power of blinding and loosing is given. 
‡ O Vain mao. What pertein● these keys to General Councils? For by them every poor Priest hath as good right in Council, as the Pope.  If a secular Prince can not show the keys given to him, how dareth he adventure to break up rather then to open the clasped book of God, 
The Prince may deal in Ecclesiastical Causes.  the door of the Church, and the gates of the Kingdom of heaven? Wherefore S. Ambrose said unto Valentinian. Quando audivisti, Imperator, in causa Fidei Laicos de Episcopo iudicasse? 
Li. 5. epis. 32  When haste thou heard, Emperor, lay-men to have been judges of a Bishop in the cause of Faith? And yet now these men think, that which S. Ambrose never heard of, not only to have been used continually the first five hundred years after Christ's birth, but also to be as clear a matter, as if we beheld it with our eyes.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Temporal Prince, ye say, hath not the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: Ergo, he may not judge in Ecclesiastical Causes, nor give Definitive Sentence in General Council. This is a very silly poor Argument, M. harding, as hereafter it shall appear. But S. Ambrose saith unto the Emperor Valentinian: When did your Majesty ever hear, that in a Cause of Faith, a laymen were judges over Bishops? Here, M. harding, by the way, S. Amrbose giveth you to understand, that unless it be in a Cause of Faith, a Laieman may be judge over a Bishop: which thing is contrary, 
part 6. Cap. 9 Divi. 2.  not only to your Former Doctrine, but also to the whole course, and practise of your Church of Rome.  
How be it, touching the meaning of these words, it behoveth us to know, first the cause, wherefore S. Ambrose so shunned, and fled the emperors judgement: next, before what judges he desired to be tried.  
First, the Emperor Valentinian, at that time, was very young, as well in Age, as also in Faith: He was not yet Baptized: He knew not the Principles of Christ's Religion: 
Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 33. Mandatur denique, Trade Basilicam. Allegatur, Imperatori licere omnia.  He was an Arian Heretic, and believed not the godhead of Christ, but bent all his study, and power to maintain the Arians: He would have thrust out the christians, & would have possessed the Heretics in their Churches: and to that end had raised his Power, and filled Milan full of Soldiers: He said, It was lawful for him, to do, what him listed. Briefly, his whole dealing was full of force, & violence, such as hath been seen in some Countries, not many years sithence.  
In consideration hereof, 
Ambros. Li 5. Epist 32. Ad Valentinian. Lib. 5. Epist. 33.  S. Ambrose worthily refused him to be his judge. And therefore he said unto him, Tolle Legem, si vis esse Cerramen: Take away the rigour of your Law, if ye will have the matter tried by Disputation. Again, Noli te gravare, Imperator, ut putes te in ea, quae Divina sunt, Imperiale aliquod ius habere: Noli te extollere: Esto Deo subiectus. Scriptum est, quae Dei, Deo: quae Caesaris, Caesari: O my Lord, trouble not yourself, to think, you have any Princely Power over those things, that pertain to God. Vaunt not yourself: be subject unto God. It is written, give unto God, that belongeth unto God: give unto Caesar, that belongeth unto Caesar.  
But, as S. Ambrose saith, The Emperor hath no Power over God's causes, so may we likewise, and as truly say, The Pope hath no Power over God's causes. S. Chrysostom saith, Siquidem est in Causa Fidei, fuge illum, & evita: 
Chrysost. ad Hebrae. Homil. 34.  non solùm si homo fuerit, verùm etiam si Angelus de Coelo descenderit: If it be a Mater of Faith, (wherein he seeketh to abuse thee) flee him, and shun him: not only, if he be a man, but also if an Angel should come down from Heaven. Thus it appeareth, S. Ambrose refused not the emperors Power, and Authority of judgement in Cases Ecclesiastical, but only his wilful Ignorance, & his Tyranny: For that he knew, 
Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 32. Dicentes, de Pied in Ecclesia coram populo debere trae●tari.  his judgement was corrupted, and not indifferent.  
And for that cause he saith, Venissem, Imperator, ad Consistorium Clementiae tuae, etc. O my Lord, I would have made mine appearance at your Consistory, to have uttered these things in your Presence, if either the Bishops, or the People would have suffered me. For they told me, that Matters of Faith ought to be disputed in the Church openly before the people. Again he saith, Veniant sanè, si qui sunt, in Ecclesiam: Audiant cum Populo: non, ut quisquam resideat judex, sed ut unusquisque de suo affectu habeat examen, & eligat, quem sequatur: Let them hardly come to the Church: let them hearken together with the People: not that any man should sit as judge: but that every man mai after his own mind examine the matter, & so choose, whom he may follow. Of such Tyranny in Councils Athanasius likewise complaineth: 
In Eadem Episto. Athanas. apollo. 2. Poteramus.  Quo iure contra nos Synodum ullam constituere potuerunt? Aut qua fronte talem Conuentum Synodum appellare audent, cui Comes Praesedit? Vbi Spiculator apparebat? Vbi Commentariensis, sive Carcerarius pro Diaconis Ecclesiae adventantes introducebat? Comes imperio utebatur: Nos à Militibus ducebamur: By what Law could they keep a Council against us? Or with what face could they call such an Assembly by the name of a Council? Where as the Lord Lieutenant was Presidente? Where the Hangman was Apparitoure? Where the jailer presented the suitors in steed of the Deacons of the Church? The Lieutenant did all things by Authority and Commandment: We were taken by the Soldiers, and carried to Prison.  
Therefore he saith, Fiat Ecclesiastica Synodus longè à Palatio: ubi nec Imperator praesto est: 
Athanas. Ad Solitariam vitam agentes. Has Literas.  nec comes se ingerit: nec judex minatur: & ubi Solus Timor Dei ad omnia sufficit, etc. Let there be made an Ecclesiastical Synod, far from the emperors Palace: where as neither the Emperor is Present: nor the Lieutenant thrusteth in himself: nor the judge with his threats maketh men afraid: but where as the fear of God to all purposes is sufficient. For this cause S. Ambrose refused to be tried by the Emperor Valentinian: That is to say, as than it was, by a rash young man: by a man unbaptized, and therefore no Christian: by a Tyrant: and by an Arian Heretic, that utterly denied the Godhedde of Christ.  
Otherwise Athanasius himself was well contented to commit his whole cause unto the Emperor. For thus he saith, Postulamus, causam istam Pientissimo Imperatori reseruari: 
Athanas. Apol. 2. Cùm multas.  apud quem licebit, & iura Ecclesiae, & nostra proponere. Planè enim confidimus, eius Pietatem, cognitis nostris rationibus, nequaquam nos coudemnaturam esse: We require, that the Emperors most godly, and most Religious Majesty may have the hearing of the same matter: Before whom we may open both our Churches Right, and also our own. For we have good hope, that his Godliness, understanding our Reasons, will never condemn us.  
Likewise S. Augustine saith unto the Donatian Hereriques, An fortè de Religione fas non est, 
Augusti. contra Epist. Parme●iani. Lib. 1.  ut dicat Imperator, vel quos miserit Imperator? Our ergo ad Imperatorem vestri venere legati? Cur eum fecerunt Causae suae judicem? Is it not lawful, for the Emperor, or his Deputee, to give Sentence in a matter of Religion? Wherefore then went your Ambassadors to the Emperor? Why made they him the judge of their cause?  
Thus, M. harding, it appeareth, that you, in defraudinge Emperors, and Kings of their Imperial, and Princely Right, are feign to take part with the Donatian Heretics.  
As for us, we claim no other right in Ecclesiastical Causes unto our Christian Princes this day, then that may well appear, hath been justly used, both by Constantinus the Emperor, and also by other Catholic, and Godly Princes.  
The Emperor Theodosius wrote thus unto the Council of Chalcedon: Quoniam scimus, 
Liberatus. Ca 1●.  Magnificentissimum Florentium Patritium esse Fidelem, & probatum in Recta Fide, volumus eum interesse audientiae Synodi: quoniam sermo de Fide est: For that we know, the most Noble Florentius to be faithful, and well approved in the Right Faith, therefore we will, that he be present at the hearing, and debating of Cases in the Council: for as much as the Disputation is of the Faith.  
For Pope Nicolas himself saith, as it is alleged before, Fides universalis est: Fides omnium Communis est: Fides non solùm ad Clericos, verùm etiam ad Laicos, 
Dis. 96. Vbinam.  & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos: 
* Hespeaketh of questions of Faith moved in councils.  faith is Universal: Faith is common to all: Faith pertaineth, not only unto Priests, but also unto laymen, and generally to all Christians.  
As touching the Pope, and his Universality of Power, in, and over all Councils of Bishops, we may rightly say, as Athanasius saith of Constantius the Arian Emperor, Obtendit in speciem Episcoporum judicium: sed interim facit, 
Athanas. Ad Solitariam Vitam agentes.  quod ipsi libet. Quid opus est Hominibus Titulo Episcopis? He maketh a show of judgements, or Determinations of Bishops: In the mean while he doth, what he listeth himself. What are we the near for these men, that bear only the name of Bishops? Such commonly be the Pope's Prelates. What so ever Learning they have besides, Divinity is commonly the least part of their study. And therefore, when they are assembled in Council, they may well judge by Authority, but not by Learning.  
Verily, 
Luitprandus.  Luitprandus saith, Imperator, uti experientia didicimus, intelligit negotia Dei, & facit, & amat ea: & tuetur omnibus viribus, & Ecclesiasticas res, & Civiles. Sed johannes Papa facit contra haec omnia: We see by experience, that the Emperor understandeth God's causes, 
johan. 13.  and favoureth, and performeth the same: and with all his Power maintaineth both Ecclesiastical, and Temporal matters. But Pope john doth all the contrary.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 6.  
The Emperor justinian made a Law to correct the behaviour of the clergy, & to cut short the insolent jewdenesse of the Priests. And, albeit he were a Christian, and a Catholic Prince, yet put he down from their Papal Throne, two Popes, Syluerius, and Vigilius, notwithstanding they were Peter's Successors, and Christ's Vicars.  

M. harding.  
justinian's law concerning good order to be kept among Pristes' morally was good, and bound them by the force of reason. If he made any other Law touching matters of Religion, Pope joannes then being, approved it, or at the lest, justianian 
‡ Untruth. For he did but confer with the Pope, touching his Laws. touching the asking of allowance, there appeareth nothing.  asked approbation thereof, 
‡ Untruth. For he did but confer with the Pope, touching his Laws. touching the asking of allowance, there appeareth nothing.  as it may appear in his own Epistle, wherein he confesseth in the fact itself, that his Laws could not bind in supernatural causes belonging to faith, except the head of the Universal Church confirm them. Syluerius and Vigilius were deposed rather by Theodora the Empress, then by justinian the Emperor. 
* Untruth. For it was not tyranny, but just judgement. And justinian gave Balisarius great thanks for so doing.  Ye do wrong to impute that wicked tyranny unto him. 
* Untruth. For it was no tyranny, but just judgement. And justinian gave Balisarius great thanks for so doing.  He is not to be burdened there with, unless the man be countable for his wives iniquities.  
How so ever it was, that extraordinary violence and tyranny can not justly be alleged to the defence of your false assertion. Neither would yourself have mentioned the same, if ye could have found better matter. As hungry Dogs eat dirty puddings, according to the proverb, clean enough for such unclean writers, so your fowl matters be defended by fowl facts.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
justinian, ye say, might well make some Moral Law, to keep Priests, and Bishops in good order. Wherein nevertheless Pope Paul. 3. condemneth you utterly: For thus he writeth, and reasoneth substantially against the Emperor Charles the fifth: 
Ezechiel. 34. Paulus 3. in Epistola ad Carol. 5.  Ecce ego super Pastores meos: Behold, saith Almighty God, I me self will oversee my Shepherds: Ergo, saith Pope Paulus, The Emperor may not deal with the manners of Priests, and Bishops.  
How be it, the Emperors made Laws, touching the Holy Trinity: touching the Faith: touching Baptism: touching the Holy Communion: touching the Public Prayers: touching the Scriptures: touching the keeping of Holy days: touching Churches, & Chaples: touching the Consecration of Bishops: touching Non Residences: touching Perjury, etc. It were much for you, M. harding, to say, as now ye would seem to say, All these were Moral Laws, 
Cod. De Sacrosanct. Ecclesijs. Omni innovaetione.  and pertained only to good order. But the Pope, ye say, allowed the emperors Ecclesiastical Laws: Otherwise, of the Emperors own Authority, they had no force. The truth hereof, by the Particulares, may soon appear.  
By one of the emperors Laws it is provided, That the Bishop of Constantinople shall have Equal Power, 
Liberatus, Ca 13. Imperatoris Patrocinio.  and Prerogative with the Bishop of Rome. This Law the Pope could never brook. And yet that notwithstanding, Liberatus saith, It holdeth still by the emperors Authority, whether the Pope will, or no: 
Cod. De Sacrosanct. Ecclesiis. Omni innovatione.  Again, it is provided in the same Law, that the Churches of Illyricum, in their doubtful cases, shall appeal to Constantinople, & not to Rome:  
The Emperor Constantine saith, If the Bishop move trouble (by Doctrine, or otherwise,) by my hand he shallbe punished: For my hand is the hand of God's Minister: 
Theodoret. Li. 1. Cap. 20. Ministri Dei, hoc est, meae manis, coercebitur.   
justinian the Emperor in his Law commandeth, That the Priest, or Bishop in pronouncing the Public Prayers, and in the Ministration of the Sacraments, lift up his voice, and speak aloud, that the people may say, Amen, and be stirred to more Devotion: Again, he saith, as it is noted in the Gloze upon the authentics, Papa Temporalibus immiscere se non debet: 
Authen. Titul. 123.  The Pope may not intermeddle with Temporal Causes:  
In the same Laws, 
Authen. Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat Episcopos.  the same Emperor justinian saith, We Commounde the most Holy archbishops, and patriarchs, of Rome, of Constantinople, of Alexandria, of Antioch, and of Jerusalem: The same Emperor justinian commandeth, That all Monks, 
Authen. Colla. 9 Titu. 15. De Sanctiss. Episcopis. jubemus Beatissimos Archiepiscopos, Senioris Romae, etc.  either be driven to study the Scriptures, or else be forced to Bodily Labour: Carolus Magnus made a Law, That nothing should be read openly in the Church, saving only the Canonical Books of the Holy Scriptures: And that the faithful People should receive the Holy Communion every Sonnedaie. I leave the rehearsal of infinite other like Examples.  
Now, M. harding, will you say, or may we believe, that all these, and other like Laws were allowed by the Pope?  
In deed your Gloser saith, 
Authen. Tit. 133. Ansigisus Lib. 1. Cap. 19  Ad quid intromittit se Imperator de Spiritualibus, vel Ecclesiasticis, cùm sciat ad se non pertinere? Wherefore doth the Emperor thus busy himself with these Spiritual, or Ecclesiastical matters, seeing he knoweth, they are no part of his Charge? 
Carolus Magnus Lib. 6. Cap. 162. Authen. Colla. 1. Titu. 6. Quomodo oporteat.  To so profound a question, after a long solemn study, he diviseth this answer: Dic, quòd Authoritate Papae hoc facit: Scie thou, that he doth it by the Pope's Authority: And then the whole matter is discharged, and all is well.  
notwithstanding, some likelihood hereof ye would seem to gather, even out of justinian's own words. 
Gloss. in verbu● Sancimus.  For thus he saith unto the Pope, although far otherwise, than you have forced him to say: Omnia, quae ad Ecclesiarum statum pertinent, approved in the Right Faith, 
The Prince may deal in Ecclesiastical Causes.  therefore we will, that he be present at the hearing, and debating of Cases in the Council: for as much as the Disputation is of the Faith.  
For Pope Nicolas himself saith, as it is alleged before, Fides universalis est: Fides omnium Communis est: Fides non solùm ad Clericos, verùm etiam ad Laicos, 
Dis. 96 Vbinam.  & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos: 
* He speaketh of questions of Faith moved in councils.  faith is Universal: Faith is common to all: Faith pertaineth, not only unto Priests, but also unto laymen, and generally to all Christians.  
As touching the Pope, and his Universality of Power, in, and over all Councils of Bishops, we may rightly say, as Athanasius saith of Constantius the Arian Emperor, Obtendit in speciem Episcoporum judicium: sed interim facit, quod ipsi libet. Quid opus est Hominibus Titulo Episcopis? He maketh a show of judgements, 
Athanas. Ad Solitariam Vitam agentes.  or Determinations of Bishops: In the mean while he doth, what he listeth himself. What are we the near for these men, that bear only the name of Bishops? Such commonly be the Pope's Prelates. What so ever Learning they have besides, Divinity is commonly the least part of their study. And therefore, when they are assembled in Council, they may well judge by Authority, but not by Learning.  
Verily, 
Luitprandus.  Luitprandus saith, Imperator, uti experientia didicimus, intelligit negotia Dei, & facit, & amat ea: & tuetur omnibus viribus, & Ecclesiasticas res, & Civiles. Sed johannes Papa facit contra haec omnia: We see by experience, that the Emperor understandeth God's causes, 
johan. 13.  and favoureth, and performeth the same: and with all his power maintaineth both Ecclesiastical, and Temporal matters. But Pope john doth all the contrary.    

The Apology, Cap. 14. Division. 6.  
The Emperor justinian made a Law to correct the behaviour of the clergy, & to cut short the insolent lewdness of the Priests. And, albeit he were a Christian, and a Catholic Prince, yet put he down from their Papal Throne, two Popes, Syluerius, and Vigilius, notwithstanding they were Peter's Successors, and Christ's Vicars.  

M. harding.  
justinian's law concerning good order to be kept among Priests morally was good, and bound them by the force of reason. If he made any other Law touching matters of Religion, Pope joannes then being, approved it, or at the lest, justinian 
‡ Untruth. For he did but confer with the Pope, touching his Laws. touching the asking of allowance, there appeareth nothing.  asked approbation thereof, 
‡ Untruth. For he did but confer with the Pope, touching his Laws. touching the asking of allowance, there appeareth nothing.  as it may appear in his own Epistle, wherein he confesseth in the fact itself, that his Laws could not bind in supernatural causes belonging to faith, except the head of the Universal Church confirm them. Syluerius and Vigilius were deposed rather by Theodora the Empress, then by justinian the Emperor. 
* Untruth. For it was no tyranny, but just judgement. And justinian gave Belisarius great thanks for so doing.  Ye do wrong to impute that wicked tyranny unto him. 
* Untruth. For it was no tyranny, but just judgement. And justinian gave Belisarius great thanks for so doing.  He is not to be burdened there with, unless the man be countable for his wives iniquities.  
How so ever it was, that extraordinary violence and tyranny can not justly be alleged to the defence of your false assertion. Neither would yourself have mentioned the same, if ye could have found better matter. As hungry Dogs eat dirty puddings, according to the proverb, clean enough for such unclean writers, so your fowl matters be defended by fowl facts.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
justinian, 
The Prince may deal in Ecclesiastical causes.  ye say, might well make some Moral Law, to keep Priests, and Bishops in good order. Wherein nevertheless Pope Paul. 3. condemneth you utterly: For thus he writeth, and reasoneth substantially against the Emperor Charles the fifth: 
Ezechiel. 34. Paulus 3. in Epistola ad Carol. 5.  Ecce ego super Pastores meos: Behold, saith Almighty God, I me self will oversee my Shepherds: Ergo, saith Pope Paulus, The Emperor may not deal with the manners of Priests, and Bishops.  
How be it, the Emperors made Laws, touching the Holy Trinity: touching the Faith: touching Baptism: touching the Holy Communion: touching the Public Prayers: touching the Scriptures: touching the keeping of Holy days: touching Churches, & Chaples: touching the Consecration of Bishops: touching Non Residences: touching Perjury, etc. It were much for you, M. harding, to say, as now ye would seem to say, All these were Moral Laws, 
Cod. De Sacrosanct. Ecclesijs. Omni innovaetione.  and pertained only to good order. But the Pope, ye say, allowed the emperors Ecclesiastical Laws: Otherwise, of the Emperors own Authority, they had no force. The truth hereof, by the Particulares, may soon appear.  
By one of the emperors Laws it is provided, That the Bishop of Constantinople shall have Equal Power, 
Liberatus, Ca 13. Imperatoris Patrocinio.  and Prerogative with the Bishop of Rome. This Law the Pope could never brook. And yet that notwithstanding, Liberatus saith, It holdeth still by the emperors Authority, whether the Pope will, or no: 
Cod. De Sacrosanct. Ecclesiis. Omni innovatione.  Again, it is provided in the same Law, that the Churches of Illyricum, in their doubtful cases, shall appeal to Constantinople, & not to Rome:  
The Emperor Constantine saith, If the Bishop move trouble (by Doctrine, or otherwise,) by my hand he shallbe punished: For my hand is the hand of God's Minister: 
Theodoret. Li. 1. Cap. 20. Ministri Dei, hoc est, mea manis, coercebitur.   
justinian the Emperor in his Law commandeth, That the Priest, or Bishop in pronouncing the Public Prayers, and in the Ministration of the Sacraments, lift up his voice, and speak aloud, that the people may say, Amen, and be stirred to more Devotion: Again, he saith, as it is noted in the Gloze upon the authentics, Papa Temporalibus immiscere se non debet: 
Authen. Titul. 123.  The Pope may not intermeddle with Temporal Causes:  
In the same Laws, 
Authen. Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat Episcopos.  the same Emperor justinian saith, We Commounde the most Holy archbishops, and patriarchs, of Rome, of Constantinople, of Alexandria, of Antioch, and of Jerusalem: The same Emperor justinian commandeth, That all Monks, 
Authen. Colla. 9 Titu. 15. De Sanctiss. Episcopis. jubemus Beatissimos Archiepiscopos, Senioris Romae, etc.  either be driven to study the Scriptures, or else be forced to Bodily Labour: Carolus Magnus made a Law, That nothing should be read openly in the Church, saving only the Canonical Books of the Holy Scriptures: And that the faithful People should receive the Holy Communion every Sonnedaie. I leave the rehearsal of infinite other like Examples.  
Now, M. harding, will you say, or may we believe, that all these, and other like Laws were allowed by the Pope?  
In deed your Gloser saith, 
Authen. Tit. 133. Ansigisus Lib. 1. Cap. 19  Ad quid intromittit se Imperator de Spiritualibus, vel Ecclesiasticis, cùm sciat ad se non pertinere? Wherefore doth the Emperor thus busy himself with these Spiritual, or Ecclesiastical matters, seeing he knoweth, they are no part of his Charge? 
Carolus Magnus Lib. 6. Cap. 162. Authen. Colla. 1. Titu. 6. Quomodo oporteat.  To so profound a question, after a long solemn study, he diviseth this answer: Dic, quòd Authoritate Papae hoc facit: Scie thou, that he doth it by the Pope's Authority: And then the whole matter is discharged, and all is well.  
notwithstanding, some likelihood hereof ye would seem to gather, even out of justinian's own words. 
Gloss. in verbu● Sanc●mus.  For thus he saith unto the Pope, although far otherwise, than you have forced him to say: Omnia, quae ad Ecclesiarum statum pertinent, festinavimus ad notitiam deferre Vestrae Sanctitatis. Necessarium ducimus, ut ad notitiam Vestrae Sanctitatis pervenirent. Nec enim patimur, quicquam, quod ad Ecclesiarum Statum pertinet, ut non etiam Vestrae innotescat Sanctitati: quae Caput est omnium Sanctarum Ecclesiarum: What so ever things pertain to the state of the Churches, 
Cod. De Summa Trinita. & Fide Catho. Inter Claras.  we have speedily brought to the knowledge of your Holiness. We thought it necessary, that your Holiness should have knowledge thereof. We suffer not any thing, that concerneth the State of the Churches, but it be brought to the knowledge of your Holiness: which is the Head, or Chief of all the Holy Churches.  
The Emperor willeth the Pope, to take knowledge of his Laws, for that he was the Chief of the Four Principal patriarchs, and, in respect of his See, the greatest Bishop of all the World: for which cause also he calleth him, the Head, 
Cod. De Veteri jure Enucleando. Chrysostom. ad Romanos. Homi. 18.  or Chief of all Churches. So justinian saith, Roma est Caput Orbis Terrarum: Rome is the Head of all the World. So S. Chrysostom saith, Caput Prophetarum Elias: Elias, the Head of the Prophets. So saith Prudentius, Sancta Bethlem Caput est Orbis: The Holy town of Bethlem is the Head of the World.  
So Nazianzene calleth S. Basile, 
Prudentius in Enchiridio.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Oculum Orbis Terrarum: The Eye of all the Earth. So justinian calleth the Bishop of Constantinople an, Universal Patriarch: 
Nazianzenus in Epist. ad Basili.  Epiphanio universali Patriarchae.  
These, and other like words, pass oftentimes in favour, as Titles of Honour. But they import not always that Universal Government, 
Authen. Colla. 1. Vt determinatus.  or Infinite Authority, that the Pope sithence hath imagined. But, touching the Confirmation, and allowance of the emperors Laws, in these words of justinian ye find nothing: unless ye will say, Notitia, is Latin for, Allowance: or, pervenire, is Latin to Confirm.  
The emperors purpose was, as it plainly appeareth by his words, by these, & all other means, to bring the See of Rome into credit. For thus he saith, Properamus, 
Cod. De summa Trinita. & Fide Cath. Inter Claras.  Honorem, & Authoritatem Crescere Sedis Vestrae: Omnes Sacerdotes universi Orientalis Tractus, & subijcere, & unire Sedi Vestrae Sanctitatis properavimus. Plus ita Vestrae Sedis crescer Authoritas: We labour, to advance the Honour, and Authority of your See: We labour to subdue, and to join all the Priests of the east part unto the See of your Holiness. Thus shall the Authority of your See the more increase.  
notwithstanding, 
Gregor. Haloander, Et Azo.  it is noted by the Learned of your own side, that these Epistles between the Emperor, & the Pope, in the Oldest Allowed Books are not found: and therefore are suspected to savour of some Roman forgery. Hereby it is easy to understand, that until the time of the Emperor justinian, which was well-near six hundred years after Christ, the Bishops of the east Church were not subject to the Bishop of Rome: and, that for so long time, the Pope was not yet known for the Head of the Universal Church of God.  
One of your own Allowed Doctors saith thus, 
Heruae. De Potest. Papae. Ca 17.  Dicere, quoed Princeps non potest facere Leges, vel eis uti, quousque fuerint approbatae per Papam, falsum est: To say, that the Prince cannot, either make, or use his Laws, before the Pope have allowed them, it is plainly false.  
Abbate Panormitane, 
Extra. De Constituti. Ecclesiae Sanctae Mariae. Numero 9  to qualify the matter, saith thus, Lex Principis Praeiudicialis Ecclesijs, non extenditur ad Ecclesias, nisi expressè approbetur per Papam: Sed, si favet Ecclesijs, intelligitur approbata, nisi expressè reprobetur: The Prince's Law, if it be Prejudicial, or hurtful to the Church, is not extended unto the Church, unless it be expressly allowed by the Pope: But if it be profitable for the Church, we must think, it is allowed, unless it be expressly disallowed.  
But here, M. harding, this one thing ye may note by the way: that, notwithstanding you cannot find, by any shift, or colour, whereof ye lack no store, that the Pope hath Authority to allow the emperors Laws: yet, of the other side, we are able readily to find, that the Emperor hath Authority to allow the Pope's Laws. For so the Emperor justinian himself saith: A praecedentibus nos Imperatoribus, & à nobis ipsis rectè dictum est, Oportere Sacras Regulas pro Legibus valere: It is well said, both by other Emperors our Predecessors, 
Authen. Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat.  and also by us, that the Holy Canons must be holden for Laws.  
Likewise saith Pope Honorius. 3. Imperator justinianus decrevit, ut Canones Patrum vim Legum habere oporteat: 
Extra, De juramen. Calum. Inhaerentes.  The Emperor justinian hath decreed, that the Canons of the Fathers shall have the force of Laws.  
But, what can be so plain, as that justinian hereof writeth himself? These be his words: 
Authen. De Eccles. diversis Capitulis.  Nisi intra praescriptum tempus ad Ecclesias suas redeant, deponantur, & alij in illorum locum surrogentur, idque Authoritate, & vi huius Praesentis Legis: unless Bishops, and Priests, repair again unto their Churches by a day appointed, let them be deprived from their livings, and let others be placed in their rooms, (not by the Authority of the Pope, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. August. Epist. 48. Cod. De veteri jure Enuclean. L. 1.  but) by the force, and Authority of this Present Law. So saith S. Augustine, Reges in Terris serviunt Christo, faciendo Leges pro Christo: Kings in the world serve Christ, in that they make Laws for Christ. Likewise saith justinian, Legum Authoritas & Divinas, & Humanas res bene disponit: By the Authority of the (Emperors) Laws both Heavenly, and worldly things are well ordered. And again, Nullum genus rerum est, quod non sit penitùs quaerendum Authoritate Imperatoris. Is enim recipit à Deo communem gubernationem, 
Authen. Titu. 133 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  & Principalitatem super omnes homines: There is no kind of thing, but it may be thoroughly examined by the Authority of the Emperor. For he receiveth from God a General Government, and Principality over all men: that is, as well of the clergy, eas of the laity.  
So saith Paulus the Bishop of Apamea unto the same Emperor justinian, upon the death of Agapetus the Bishop of Rome: 
Council Constantinop. 5. Actione. 1.  Transtulit ipsum Dominus, ut Plenitudinem directionis Vestrae custodiret Serenitati: Our Lord hath taken the Pope away, that he might reserve the whole f●lnesse of order unto your Majesty.  
touching the Deprivation of the two Popes, Syluerius, and Vigilius, ye say, It was done only by Theodora the Empress, and not by the Emperor justinian: and therein, ye think, ye have taken us in some great advantage. notwithstanding in your own Pontifical it is written thus, 
Concil. Tomo. 2. in vita Vigilij.  Belisarium interrogavit Imperator, quomodò se haberet cum Romanis: vel quomodò in loco Syluerij statuisset Vigilium. Tunc gratias ei egerunt Imperator, & Augusta: The Emperor demanded of his Captain Belisarius, how he had done with the Romans: and how he had deposed Pope Syluerius, and placed Vigilius in his steed. Upon his answer, both the Emperor, and the Empress gave him thanks. Now ye know, 
ff. In Regulis juris.  it is a Rule in Law, Ratihabitio retrotrahitur, & mandato comparatur: The Allowance of a thing donne, is as good, as a Commission for the doing.  
some of your Friends have said, 
Petrus De Palud. De Potesta. Papae, Arti. 4. Eutropij appendix, De Syluerio.  Totus Mundus non potest Deponere, aut judicare Papam: The whole world cannot Depose, or judge the Pope. Yet Eutropius saith, Si quando Imperialis Legatus mitteretur à Principe, ut Romanus Pontifex proficisceretur Constantinopolim ad Imperatorem, omni neglecta occasione, ibat: etiamsi pro certo sciret, se iturum in exilium: If the emperors ambassador had commanded thee Bishop of Rome to appear at Constantinople before the Emperor, he went straight way without excuse: Yea, although he certainly knew, that he should be banished. Here I leave sundry Examples of Emperors, that by their Authority have Deposed, not only other Bishops, but also Popes: 
Ennodius: Inter Decreta Bonifacij. 1.  As the Example of Honorius, that Deposed Pope Bonifacius: Of Theodoricus, that Deposed Pope Symmachus: Of Otho, that Deposed Pope john, 12: Of Henry, that Deposed Pope Benedictus. 9 and that, as it is recorded, not by wilful might, or Tyranny, but, Imperiali, & Canonica Censura: By his Imperial, and by the Canonical Censures. Yea, one of your own Friends saith thus: Populus commendabiliter Zelo Fidei commotus, Constantinum Papam, qui erat Ecclesiae in scandalum, privauit oculis, & Deposuit: The people of Rome, moved with the Zele of Faith, 
johannes De Parisijs, De Potest. Regia, & Papali.  took Pope Constantine, and pulled out his eyes, and Deposed him, for that he was slanderous unto the Church: and they deserved great Praise for the same.  
How be it, 
Idem, eodem joco.  ye say, these two Popes, Syluerius, and Vigilius were Good men, and Godly Fathers: and therefore the removing of them was Violence, and Tyranny. And hereto ye apply the unsavoury Similitude of your Homely Puddings. notwithstanding, what Virtue, or Holiness was in either of these men, it may soon appear by the story. Pope Syluerius was chosen Pope by Corruption, 
Concil. Tom. 2. In Syluerio. Euagrius, Lib. 4. Cap. 19  and Simony, contrary to the will of the clergy: Pope Vigilius accused him of Treason, for that he would have betrayed the City of Rome to the Gotthians. As for Pope Vigilius, your Pontifical saith, He was a False Witness against his predecessor, Pope Syluerius: He sought undue means to remove him, and to place himself: He kept him in Prison, and starved him for hunger: He gave a great sum of money to procure the Popedom to himself: He killed his own Notary: He killed a young man, being a widows Son: And of these crimes he was accused before the Emperor. Such Virtue, and such Holiness the world found in them. Therefore the Godly Emperor in removing of them, used neither Extraordinary Violence, as you say, nor Injurious Tyranny.  
Your own fellows say, 
Heruaeus, De Potest. Papae. Ca 13.  Si Papa sit incorrigibilis, nec Cardinales possint per se amovere scandalum de Ecclesia, tunc in subsidium juris, deberent supplicando invocare Brachium Saeculare. Et tunc Imperator, requisitus à Cardinalibus, deberet procedere contra Papam: If the Pope be uncorrigible, and the Cardinals be not able of themselves to remove the offence from the Church, then ought they, for aid of the Law, by way of entreaty, to call upon the Seculare Power. And then the Emperor, being thus desired, aught to proceed orderly against the Pope.  
Franciscus Zarabella saith, as he is alleged before, Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore, 
Franc. Zarabella De Schemate, & Concilio.  de quolibet crimine notorio: Et Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem Fidei: The Pope in any notorious crime may be accused before the Emperor: And the Emperor may require the Pope, to yield a reckoning of his Faith.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 1.  
Let us see then, such men, as have Authority over the Bishops, such men, as receive from God Commandments concerning Religion, such, as bring home again the Ark of God, make Holy Hymns, oversee the Priests, build the Temple, make Orations touching Divine Service, cleanse the Temples, destroy the Hil Altars, burn the Idols Groves, teach the Priests their duty, writ them out Precepts, how they should live, kill the wicked Prophets, displace the High Priests, call together the Councils of Bishops, sit together with the Bishops, instructing them what they ought to do, condemn, and punish Heretical bishops, be made acquainted with matters of Religion, 
The Pope's Power Supernatural.  which Subscribe, and give Sentence, & do all these things, not by any other Man's Commission, but in their own name, and that both uprightly, and Godly: Shall we say, It pertaineth not to such men, to have to do with Religion? Or, shall we say, A Christian Magistrate, which dealeth amongst others in these matters, doth either naughtily, or presumptuously, or wickedly? The most Ancient, and Christian Emperors, & Kings, that ever were, did occupy themselves in these matters: and yet were they never, for this cause, noted either of wickedness, or of Presumption. And what is he, that canue find out, either more Catholic Princes, or more Notable Examples?  

M. harding.  
Now then Kings, and Emperors, 
‡ Untruths three together. Open, and manifest. Read the Answer.  who have their first authority by the positive Law of Nations, 
‡ Untruths three together. Open, and manifest. Read the Answer.  not by supernatural grace from God, as Priests have: who can have no more power than the people hath, 
‡ Untruths three together. Open, and manifest. Read the Answer.  of whom they take their Temporal jurisdiction: Who have ever 
* untruth, Confessed by M. hardings own Doctors.  been anointed and Blessed by Bishops, who so ever blesseth being greater than he that is blessed: Shall we say, that such Kings, and Emperors have authority to rule the Church, 
‡ And is not the Pope a Son of the Church? Then is he not the Son of God.  whose Sons they are? To be Supreme Heads over them, whom they ought to kneel unto for Absolution? To control their spiritual judges, whom if they Sin by humane frailty, they 
* Untruth. For that the Prince ought so do, Constantinus never said it. Dist. 22. Omnes.  ought to cover with their cloaks, 
* Untruth. For that the Prince ought so do, Constantinus never said it. Dist. 22. Omnes.  as the Great Constantine said: to degrade them, of whom they must be baptized, Anoincted, Crowned, and Buried?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Now, M. harding, ye huddle up hastily your poor Arguments in heaps together. One, or two of them only I mind to touch: The rest are not worth the stirring. first ye say, The Pope's Power is of God, The Prince's Power is only of Man. The one Supernatural, the other Natural. In such sort your Pope Nicolas adorneth, & magnifieth his own Chair. For thus he saith with a joily courage: Illud Verbum, quo constructum est Coelum, & Terra, quo denique omnia ficta sunt Elementa, Romanam fundavit Ecclesiam: The Word of God, whereby Heaven, and Earth was made, and whereby all the Elements were fashioned, the same Word founded thee Church of Rome. As if the Church of Rome, and other Churches, were not all of one foundation. An other of your Pope's Retainers saith, Papatus est Summa Virtus Creata: 
johan. De Parisijs, De Potesta. Regia. & Papali.  The Popedom is the Highest Virtue, or Power, that ever God made: that is to say, the Popedom is above Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominations, and all the Powers, in, under, or above the Heavens.  
another saith, even as you say, and, as I have partly said before: Rex per Hominem fit: Sacerdos autem proximè nascitur ex Deo ipso: Quantùm Deus praestat Sacerdoti, 
Stanislaus Orichovius in Chimaera. Fo. 97, & 99  tantùm Sacerdos praestat Regi: The King is made by Man: But the Priest is immediately begotten of God. As much as God excelleth the Priest, so much the Priest excelleth the King.  
And, notwithstanding all this Supernatural Power be as well in the Simplest Priest, 
Petrus De Palude De Potestate Curator. Arti. 6.  as in the Pope, yet an other of your Doctors saith, Papa eligitur secundum Ius Divinum: alij verò Episcopi, secundum Ius Humanum: The Pope is chosen by the Law of God: But other Bishops are chosen by the Law of Man. Thus ye think no colour too dear, to paint out the Pope's face, and to make it fair and glorious.  
But the Prince's Power, ye say, is Temporal, and Natural, and only from beneath, and only of Man: and therefore can be no greater, than Man may give him. This is your Lovanian Divinity, M. harding: So highly ye esteem the Dignity, & Majesty of the Prince. 
Proverb. 8. Rom. 13.  But God himself saith, Per me Reges regnant: Kings rule by me (and not by Man). S. Paul saith, Non est Potestas, nisi à Deo: There is no Power, or princehood, but from God. Likewise Christ himself said unto Pilate, 
johan. 19  Thou couldst have no Power over me, unless it were given thee (not from man, but) from above. To like purpose the Emperor justinian saith, Maxima in omnibus sunt Dona Dei, 
Authen. Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat Episcopos. Maxima.  à Superna collata Clementia, Sacerdotium, & Imperium etc. Ex uno codemqúe Principio utraque procedentia Humanam exornant vitam: priesthood, and princehood be in all things the greatest gifts of God, given unto us from the Mercy above. These two floweinge (not the one only from Man, & the other from God, but) both from one Original, do adorn and beautify the Life of Man. Upon which words it is noted in your Gloze, Idem Principium habent, & parum differunt: 
Glosa, In verbum, utraque.  priesthood, and princehood have one Original, and small difference. He saith not, as you say, The odds between these two is so great, as is between Natural, and Supernatural: between Heaven, & Earth: or, between God, and Man: But he saith plainly, priesthood, and princehood have one Original, and little odds, and small difference. And therefore an other of your Doctors saith, Supponunt, quòd Potestas Regalis sit Corporalis, & non Spiritualis: 
Heruaeus, De Potesta. Papae. Ca ●5.  & quòd habeat Curam Corporum, & non Animarum: quod falsum est: They imagine, that the Prince's Power is only Bodily, and not ghostly: and, that the Prince hath the Charge of men's Bodies, but none of their Souls: But this is stark false.  
And whereas you so highly extol your Pope's Universal Power, as if it were Supernatural, and Heavenly, and came only from God, An other of your Doctors saith, 
johan. De Parisijs, De Potesta. Regia, & Papali.  Ea, quae sunt jurisdictionis Papae, non sunt supra Naturam, & Conditionem negotij, nec supra Conditionem hominum. Quia non est supra conditionem hominis, quòd homines praesint hominibus. Imò naturale est quodammodò: Such things, as belong to the Pope's jurisdiction, are not above Nature, nor above the Condition of the thing itself, nor above the Capacity of a Man. For it is not above the Nature of a Man, for Man to rule over men. Nay rather, in a sort, it is Natural. Now, M. harding, if the Prince's Power be from God, as well, as the Popes: If the Pope's Power concerning jurisdiction, be Natural, as well as the Princes: If they flow both from one Original: If they have so small difference, what meant you then, by these odious Comparisons, so highly, and so ambitiously to advance the one, & so disdeignefully, and scornfully to abase the other? touching the Prince's Power, we are certainly assured by God's Holy Word, It is from God. As for the Pope's Infinite, and Universal Power, throughout the whole Scriptures, from the Genesis unto the Apocalyps, unless it be the Power of Darkness, ye can find nothing.  
ye say, Kings have evermore been Anointed, and Blessed by Bishops. This is an other fowl Untruth. For you might easily have known, the Christian Kings in old times were never Anointed. 
Heruaeus, De Potestae. Papae. Ca 18.  Your own doctor saith, In Novo Testamento non legimus, quòd Sacerdotes debeant inungere Reges: Nec etiam nunc obseruatur in omnibus Regibus Christianis: ut patet in Regibus Hispaniae: We read not in the New Testament, that Priests, or Bishops ought to anoint Kings. Neither is that order at this day used amongst all Kings, that be Christened: as it appeareth by the Kings of Spain. Again ye say, and that ye bring in, as a special good Argument of your side, The Emperor kneeleth to the Priest for Absolution: Ergo, The Emperor is not the Head of the Church. How may a man answer such Follies, better than with the like Folly? The Pope himself, by your own Decrees, is bound to Confess his Sins, and kneeleth to a Simple Priest for Absolution. For your canonists say, Papa tenetur Confiteri peccata sua uni Sacerdoti: Et Simplex Sacerdos potest illum Ligare, & Absoluere: The Pope is bound to confess his Sins to some one Priest: and a Simple Priest may both Bind him, and Absolve him. Ergo, by your own Conclusion, The Pope is not Head of the Church. Such a handsome proctor the Pope hath gotten to promote his Cause.  
With such pretty stuff, M. harding, ye think to overrun, and to conquer the world.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 2.  
Wherefore, if it were lawful for them to do thus, being but civil Magistrates, & having the chief rule of common Weals, what offence have our Princes at this day made, which may not have leave to do the like, being in the like Degree? Or what especial gift of Learning, or of judgement, or of Holiness have these men now, that they, contrary to the Custom of all the Ancient & Catholic Bishops, who used to confer with Princes, and Peers, concerning Religion, do now thus reject and cast of Christian Princes from knowing of the cause, and from their meetings?  

M. harding.  
We answer, it was 
* Untruth, As it may easily appear by that, hath been said before.  never lawful in any Temporal Prince, to judge in causes of Religion. 
* Untruth, As it may easily appear by that, hath been said before.  Neither did any Prince before this time ever use it.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
This is an other of your Absolute Truths, M. harding. For answer whereof, 
part. 6. Cap. 14. Diuis. 4 & 5.  it may please you indifferently to weigh, that I have written a little before touching the same.    

The Apology, Cap. 15. Division. 3.  
Well, thus doing, they wisely, & warily provide for themselves, and for their Kingdom, which otherwise they see is like shortly to come to nought. For if so be they, whom God hath placed in greatest Dignity, did see, and perceive these men's practices, how Christ's commandments be despised by them, how the Light of the Gospel is darkened, and quenched out by them, and how themselves also be subtly beguiled, and mocked, and unwares be deluded by them, and the way to the Kingdom of Heaven stopped up before them, no doubt they would never so quietly suffer themselves, neither to be disdained after such a proud sort, nor so despitefully to be scorned, and abused by them. But now through their own lack of understanding, and through their own blindness, these men have them fast yoked, and in their danger.  

M. harding.  
bishops 
* Otherwise it were not the Kingdom of Darkness.  can not uphold their kingdom by wrong doing: 
‡ When they be once espied: and not before.  that is the way to pull them down. Therefore we are well assured that your Schismatical Superintendentship can not stand, though all the power of the world were bent to hold it up. Your wicked state is not planted of God, and therefore it shallbe rooted out. 
Affiance in Darkness.  It is God, that ruleth: it is God that setteth up, and putteth down. This state of Christ's Church hath continued, and the successor of Peter hath governed it, whereas the groundless building of all the Heretics from Simon Magus downward to this day hath failed. Luther is rotten, and his new found Religion decayed, and the Pope sitteth in Peter's chair, and so shall his successors to the end.  
Ye would men to believe, that Emperors, and Kings are deceived by the Popes, and Bishops. But I pray you, what is the cause, that Princes can not espy these deceits (if any such were) as well as ye? If themselves lack your knowledge, yet have they wise men about them, who for their duties sake, and their allegiance to them▪ would soon advertise them▪ how by the Bishops they be subtly beguiled, and mocked.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Of the maineteinance of your Kingdom, M. harding, Christ said unto certain your Forefathers, Hoc est tempus Vestrum, & Potestas Tenebrarum: This is your time, 
Luke. 22. Matthae. 15.  and the Power of Darkness. Blind they are, and the Guides of the Blind. If the Blind lead the Blind, they will both fall into the ditch. The Lion, or wild bull, be they never so cruel, or great of courage, yet, if ye may once closely cover their eyes, ye may easily lead them, whither ye list, without resistance. Even so doth the Pope hoodewinke, and blindfold the Princes of the world: which done, he maketh them to hold his Stirope, to lead his Horse, to kneel down, and to kiss his Shoe, and to attend upon him, at his pleasure. But, if they knew, either him, or themselves, they would not do it.  
S. Chrysostom saith, 
Chrysost. in Opere imperfecto. Homil. 44.  as it is noted before, Haeretici Sacerdotes claudunt januas Veritatis. Sciunt enim, si manifestara esset Veritas, quòd ipsorum Ecclesia esset relinquenda: & ipsi de Sacerdotali Dignitate ad Humilitatem venirent popularem: Heretical Bishops shut up the gates of the Truth▪ For they know, that, if the Truth be once laid open, their Church shallbe forsaken: And they from their Pontifical Dignity, shallbe brought down to the baseness of the people.  
Petrus Ferrariensis, 
Petrus Ferrarien. Citatur ab Illyrico, Inter Testes Veritatis.  in consideration hereof, complaineth thus, O miseros Imperatores, & Saeculares Principes, qui haec, & alia sustinetis, & vos servos Ecclesiae facitis: Et Mundum per eos infinitis modis usurpari videtis: nec de remedio cogitatis: Quia prudentiae, & Sapientiae non intenditis: Alas, miserable are ye, the Emperors, and Princes of the world, that abide these, and other like things (at the Pope's hands,) and make yourselves slaves unto the Church. Ye see, the world is by innumerable ways miserably abused by them: yet ye never bethink yourselves of any remedy: Because ye apply not your minds to wisdom, and knowledge.  
S. 
Hieronym. in Esaiam, Lib. 9 Cap. 30.  Jerome saith, Vt sagittent in obscuro rectos cord. Isti tantam sibi assumunt Authoritatem, ut sive Dextra doceant, seu Sinistra, id est, sive bona, sive mala, ●olint Discipulos ratione discutere, sed se praecessores sequi. Tunc high, qui priùs decipiebant, nequaquam ultrà ad eos valebunt accedere, postquam se senserint intellectos: To strike in the dark, them, that be simple of heart. These men challenge unto themselves such Authority, that, whether they teach with the Right hand, or with the left, that is to say, whether they teach good things, or bad, they will not have their Disciples, or Hearers, with reason to examine their sayings, but only to follow them, being their Leaders. For than they, which before deceived the people, can no more come unto them, after they once perceive, they be espied.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 1.  
Verily, we for our parts, as we have said, have done nothing in altering Religion, upon either Rashness, or Arrogancy: nor nothing, but with good leisure, and great consideration. Neither had we ever intended to do it, except both the manifest, & most assured Will of God, opened to us in his Holy Scriptures, and the regard of our own Salvation had even constrained us thereunto. For though we have departed from that Church, which these men call Catholic, and by that means get us envy amongst them, that want skill to judge, yet is this enough for us, & it ought to be enough for every wise, and good man, and one that maketh account of everlasting Life, that we have gone from that church which had power to err: which christ, who can not err, told so long before, it should err: and which we ourselves did evidently see with our eyes, to have gone from the Old Holy Fathers, and from the Apostles, and from Christ himself, and from the Primitive and catholic church of God: & we are come, as near, as we possibly could, to the Church of the Apostles, and of the Old catholic Bishops & Fathers: which Church, we know, hath hitherto been sound, and perfit, and, as Tertullian termeth it, a Pure Virgin, spotted as then with no Idolatry, nor with any foul, or shameful fault: and have directed, according to their Customs, and Ordinances, not only our Doctrine, but also the Sacraments, and the Form of common Prayer.  

M. harding.  
Ye have treated hereof, after your accustomed manner, that is to say, with all Untruth, and Lies.  
Ye come in with many gay words. Whereto with guilty conscience in wardely ye say yea, thereto with lying tongue out wardely do ye not say nay?  
This generation of lose Apostates, incestuous Vowbreakers, Sacrilegious church-robbers, despisers of all Holiness, breakers of the dead men's wills, overthrowers of all ancient order, and discipline.  
If it be so, where be your Signs? where be your Miracles? where be the examples of your rare Virtue, and Holiness?   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The rest of your speech we will pass over, as talk of course. touching your curious demand of Signs, and Miracles, Pope Leo may answer you. For, 
Matthae. 27.  whereas certain of your Forefathers in old times said, If he be the King of Israel, let him come down from the Cross, and we will believe him: Pope Leo saith thus unto them, 
Leo in Sermon. De Passione Domini.  Non erat vestrae coecitatis arbitrio, Stulti Scribae, & Impij Sacerdotes, ostendenda potentia salvatoris: Ye foolish Scribes, and wicked Priests, the Power of our savour was not to be showed at the discretion of your Blindness. God showeth his Miracles when, and where, and to whom he wil  
S. 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homi. 49.  Chrysostom saith, In fine temporis concedenda est potestas Diabolo, ut faciat Signa utilia: ut iam Ministros Christi non per hoc cognoscanius, quia utilia faciunt Signa, sed quia omninò haec Signa non faciunt: In the end of time Power shallbe given to the Devil, to work profitable Signs, and Miracles: So that then we cannot know the Ministers of Christ, by that they work profitable Miracles, but by that they work no Miracles at al.  
S. 
Augustin. De unitate Ecclesiae. Ca 16.  Augustine saith, Non dicat, Ideo verum est, quia illa, vel illa mirabilia fecit, vel iste, vel ille: aut quia homines ad memorias mortuorum nostrorum orant, & exaudiuntur: aut quia illa, vel illa ibi contingunt, etc. Removeantur ista, vel Figmenta mendacium hominum, 
Miracles.  vel portenta Fallacium Spirituum: Let no man say, Therefore it is true, for that this man, or that man hath wrought this, or that Miracle: or, for that men make their Prayers at the Tombs of our dead, and obtain their desires: or, for that these, or these Miracles be wrought there etc. Away with these things: they may be either the jugglinges, and Mockeries of deceitful men, or else Illusions of lying Spirits. 
Chrysostom. in Matth. Hom. 49.  Again, S. Chrysostom saith, Per Signa cognoscebatur, qui essent Veri Christiani, qui Falsi. Nunc autem Signorum operatio omnino ' levata est: Magis autem invenitur apud eos, qui falsi sunt Christiani: In old times it was known by Miracles, who were the True Christians, and who the False. But now the working of Miracles is taken quite away: and is rather found among them, that be false Christians. 
Augustin. in johan. Tracta. 13.  Therefore S. Augustine saith, Contra istos Mirabiliarios cautum me fecit Deus meus, dicendo: In novissimis diebus exurgent Pseudoprophetae facientes Signa, & Portenta, ut inducant in errorem, si fieri possit, etiam Electos: Against these Moungers of Miracles my God hath armed me, 
Matthae. 24.  saying: In the later days there shall rise up False Prophets working Signs, and wonders, to deceive the Elect of God, if it be possible.  
Neither is the Gospel of Christ preached this day utterly without Miracles. The Blind see: the dumb speak: your Idols are fallen: your Great Babylon is come to ground. These, M. harding, if you have eyes to see them, are no small Miracles. 
Chrysostom. in. 1. Corin. Homil. 6. August. De Verbis Domi. Secund. Matthae. Serm 18. Eodem loco.  S. Chrysostom saith, The Conversion of the world is a Miracle. S. Augustine saith, Modò Caro Coeca non aperit oculos Miraculo Domini: Et Cor Coecum aperit oculos Sermone Domini: Now adays the Blind flesh openeth not her eyes by the Miracle of our Lord: Put the Blind heart Openeth his eyes at the Word of our Lord. And again, Modò Aures Corporis surde● non aperiuntur. Sed quàm multi habent clausas Aures Cordis, quae tamen, Verbo Dei penetrante, patescant? Now adays the deaf Ears of the Body be not opened: yet many there are, that have the Ears of their heart shut up: which Ears not withstanding are opened by entering of the Word of God.  
Therefore wèe may rightly say to you with other words of S. Augustine, Quisquis adhuc Prodigia, 
Augustin. De Civitate Dei. Lib. 22. Cap. 8.  ut credat, inquirit. Magnum est ipse prodigium: qui, mundo credente, non credit: Who so ever yet requireth Miracles, to bring him to the Faith, is himself a great Miracle: that, the world believing, remaineth still in unbelief.  
Where as the Phariseis said of Christ, Let him now come down from the Cross, 
Hieronym. in Matthae. 27.  and we will believe him, S. Jerome saith unto them, Etiamsi de Cruce descenderet, similiter non crederetis: Yea, although he should come down from the Cross, yet would ye not believe him.  
But it were a world, to behold the Glorious Countenance of your Miracles. Your Crosses can speak: your Idols can go: your Images can light their own Lamps: your Holy Water is able to calm the Sea, to chase away Miso, and to make barren Women to conceive. If ye doubt hereof, confer with M. Cope, 
Copus, Dialog. 1. Pag. 18.  one of your own Lovanian company: or with that Worthy Prelate the Bishop of Verona, your Holy Father Lipomanus. I am ashamed to remember, that you are not ashamed even now, in these days, to publish in Writing. How be it, such Religion, such Miracles. S. Jerome saith, 
Hieronymus ad Algasiam.  Mendacium Antichristi Christi Veritas devorabit: The Truth of Christ shall deucure, and consume the falsehood of antichrist.    

The Apology, Cap. 16. Division. 2.  
And, as we know, both Christ himself, & all good men heretofore have done, we have called home again to the Original, and first foundation, that Religion, which hath been foully neglected, and utterly corrupted by these men. For we thought it meet, thence to take the Pattern of reforming Religion, from whence the ground of Religion was first taken: Because this one Reason, as saith the most Ancient Father Tertullian, hath great force against all Heresies, Look, what soever was first, that is true: and what soever is later, that is corrupt. Irenaeus oftentimes appealed to the Oldest Churches, which had been nearest to Christ's time, & which, it was hard to believe, had been in error. But why, at this day, is not the same common regard, & consideration had? Why return we not to the Pattern of the Old Churches? Why may not we hear, at this time amongst us, the same saying, which was openly pronounced in times passed in the Council at Nice, by so many Bishops, & Catholic Fathers, and no body once speaking against it? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hold still the Old Customs.  

M. harding.  
Ye say much in your own commendation, but lies be no proofs. Ye have not called Religion home again to the Original and first foundation, as ye say: but ye have quite overthrown all true Religion from the foundation. As for your apish novelty, ye have taken the pattern thereof from Satan author of division, the ancient enemy of Christ, and of his true religion. We admit the saying of Tertullian (though it be not altogether as ye allege it) that this reason hath great force against all heresies, 
Contra Praxeam.  What so ever was first, that is true. what so ever is latter, that is corrupt. Of the Blessed Sacrament, Christ said first etc. 
* Here followed sommewhat, touching the Sacrament, and Sacrifice: which matters are otherwhere answered more at large.   
Ye would seem to be feign, that we followed the advise of Irenaeus. We are content with all our hearts. And with Irenaeus we appeal to that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which (as he saith) is kept in the Churches by Priests, 
Lib. 3. ca 2.  that succeeded them. With Irenaeus leaving other Churches, whose successions of Bishops it were a long work to rehearse, we require to have recourse for trial of our Faith to the Tradition of doctrine of the Roman Church, which he termeth, 
Lib. 3. ca 3.  Greatest, Oldest, best known to all, founded, and set up by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter, and Paul. We appeal to the Faith of that Church, taught abroad in the world, and by successions of Bishops brought down unto us. For to this Church, 
‡ Irenaeus never knew the disorders, and deformities, that now are in the Church of Rome.  saith Irenaeus, must all the Church of Christ repair, where so ever it be: for that it is the chief of all, and for that the tradition of the true doctrine, which the Apostles left behind them, 
* Untruth. For, as now, it is all unfaithefully perverted.  is there faithfully kept. Wherefore if ye would after the council of Irenaeus resort to Rome for decision of the controversies, that be bet wixte you and us, and would them to be tried by that sense of doctrine, 
‡ Untruth manifest, and apparent to all the world.  which hath continued by successions of Bishops even from Peter to Pius the fourth, now Pope, and would stand to the authority of that See apostolic: all strife were ended, we should be at accord. But we have little hope ye will follow this godly counsel of S. Irenaeus that blessed Martyr, whose body your brethren the huguenots of France, villainously burned at Lions, Anno Dom. 1562. after it had rested there thirten hundred years and more.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The pre-eminence, 
Irenae. Li. 3. ca 3. Valdè longum est, omnit●n Ecclesiarum cnumerare Successiones.  that Irenaeus giveth to the Church of Rome, standeth in Consent, and Unity, and Agreement of Doctrine, not in Superiority, or Government over all the world. For proof whereof, ye may understand, that Irenaeus in the same place likewise specially noteth the Church of Smyrna planted by Polycarpus: & the Church of Ephesus, planted by S. john: and generally sundry other Great Churches, 
The Pattern of the Faith.  planted by men of Apostolical Dignity: unto which he willeth us in like manner to repair: & not only to the Church of Rome.  
The Emperor Theodsius willeth his Subjects, to conform themselves in Doctrine, 
Cod. Theodosij, Li. 16. Titul. 3.  not only to the Roman Bishop, but also, either to Nectarius the Bishop of Constantinople: or to Timotheus the Bishop of Alexandria: or to Pelagius the Bishop of Laodicea: or to Diodorus the Bishop of Tharsus: or to Amphilochius the Bishop of Iconium: or to Optimus the Bishop of Antioch: or to Helladius the Bishop of Caesarea: or to Otreius the Bishop of Melite: or to Gregorius the Bishop of Nice: or to Terennius the Bishop of Scythia: or to Marmarius the Bishop of Martianopolis. Unto all, and every of these notable great Churches, y● Emperor willeth all other inferior Churches to repair.  
By such Examples the Fathers in the Council of Chalcedon were contented, to direct their Faith. For thus they broke out in a general shoot, Omnes ita credimus: 
Concil. Chalicedonen. Actio. 2.  Leo Papa ita credit: Cyrillus ita credit: Leo, & Anatolius ita credunt: All we believe thus: Pope Leo believeth thus: Cyrillus (the Bishop of Alexandria) believeth thus: Leo, and Anatolius (the Bishop of Constantiaople) believe thus.  
So saith Tertullian, 
Tertul Contra Martion. Li. 4.  Videamus, quod lac à Paulo Corinthij hauserint: ad quam Regulam Galathae sint recocti: quid legant Philippenses, Thessalonicenses, Ephesijs: quid etiam Romani de proximo sonent: quibus evangelium Petrus, & Paulus sanguine quoque suo signatum reliquerunt: Let us see, what milk the Corinthians sucked of S. Paul: after what Pattern the Galathians were reformed: what the Philippians read, what the thessalonians, what the Ephesiens': what sound thee Romans give, that are so near us: unto whom Peter, and Paul have left the Gospel sealed, and confirmed with their Blood. In like sort writeth Gregory Nazianzene of the Church of Caesarea: 
Nazianzen. Epistol. 30.  Cuiuslibet Ecclesiae, tanquam Corporis Christi, habenda est ratio: maximè verò nostrae (Caesariensis) quae & ab initio fuit, & nunc est, Mater propè omnium Ecclesiarum: Eam Christiana Respublica, velut Centrum suum Circulus, undique observat, non solùm propter Orthodoxam Doctrinam ubique ab initio praedicatam, sed etiam propter conspicuam Concordiae Gratiam, quam divinitùs accepit: We must make great account of all Churches, even as of the Body of Christ: but specially of this our Church of Caesarea: for that it hath been from the beginning, and still is in a manner the Mother of all Churches. The whole Christian Common Weal beholdeth this Church of every side, even as the Circle beholdeth the Centre: not only for the Catholic Doctrine, that from thence hath been published everywhere, but also for the notable Grace of Concord, that it hath received from above.  
Thus the Ancient Godly Fathers willed the faithful, to have recourse unto every of these Churches, of Smyrna, of Ephesus, of Constantinople, of Alexandria, of Laodicea, of Tharsus, of Iconium, of Antioch, of Caesarea, of Melite, of Nice, of Scythia, of Martianopolis, of Corinthus, of Galatia, of Philippi, of Thessalonica, of Ephesus, & of Rome: not for any secret unremovable virtue in them contained, 
Irenae. Li. 3. ca 3. In qua semper conseruata est ea, quae est ab Apostolis Traditio.  but only, as Irenaeus saith, for that the Tradition, & Doctrine of the Apostles had continued there still without corruption. Therefore Tertullian saith, Percurre Ecclesias Apostolicas, apud quas ipsae adhuc Cathedrae Apostolorum suis locis praesidentur: apud quas ipsae Authenticae Literae eorum recitantur, sonantes vocem, & repraesentantes faciem uniuscuiusque Proxima est tibi Achaia: Habes Corinthum. Si non longè es à Macedonia, habes Philippos, habes Thessalonicenses. 
Tertul. De praescriptionib. contra Haereticos.  Si pores in Asiam tendere, habes Ephesum. Si autem Italiae adiaces, liabes Romam: unde nobis quoque Authoritas praestò est: Renne over, and behold the apostolic Churches, where as the Apostles Chairs are yet still continued, and where as the Authentical writings of the Apostles are openly pronounced, sounding out the voice, 
The Pattern of the Faith.  and representing the face of each one of them. The next Country to you is Achaia: There have you the Church of Corinthe. If ye be not for from Macedonia, there have ye the Church of Philippi, and the Church of Thessalonica: If ye may go over into Asia, there have ye the Church of Ephesus. If ye border near to Italy, there have ye the Church of Rome: from whence we also (dwelling in Aphrica) may with speed receive Authority.  
Again, touching the name of a Church apostolic, whereby ye would evermore seem to understand thee Church of Rome, he saith thus: Tot, ac tantae Ecclesiae, 
Tertul. De prescription, contra Haereticos.  una est illa ab Apostolis Prima, ex qua omnes. Sic omnes prime, & omnes Apostolicae, dum unam omnes probant unitatem: These so many, and so great Churches, are all that same one first Church, planted by the Apostles, from whence issued all the rest. And so are they all first Churches, and all apostolic, in that they all follow one Unity.  
Thus the ancient Fathers taught the People to reform themselves by the Example, and Doctrine, not only of the Church of Rome, but also of all other Notable apostolic Churches.  
Neither were they directed only by the Authority of ancient Churches, but also by the Authority of certain particular Worthy men. For Resolution in cases of doubt, some scent to S. Augustine: some to S. Jerome: some to the Bishops of France: 
Euseb. Li. 5. Ca 3.  some to the Bishops of Rome: and some to others. S. Jerome thus writeth unto S. Augustine: Tu, ut Episcopus in toto orb notissimus, 
August. Epist. 11.  debes hanc promulgare Sententiam, & in assensum tuum omnes Coepiscopos trahere: Thou, as the most notable Bishop in all the world, oughtest to publish this Decree, and to draw all thy Felowbishoppes unto thy judgement. Yet was S. Augustine the Bishop of Hippo in Aphrica, and not of Rome. Certainly, wheresoever any flame of Truth, and Learning may appear, out of what place so ever it break forth, men will of themselves willingly, & greedily flee unto it.  
Damasus, the Bishop of Rome, wrote unto S. Jerome in doubtful Cases, to know his counsel. 
Damas'. Hierony. Hieronymus ad Algasiam.  S. Jerome himself saith, Filius meus Apodemius de Oceani littore, atque ultimis Galliarum finibus, Roma praeterita, quaesivit Bethlehem: My son Apodemius, coming from the shore of the Ocean Sea, and from the furthest Coast of France, leaving Rome, sought for Bethlehem, where I dwell, (to confer with me).  
Likewise S. Ambrose saith, Post Alexandrinae Ecclesiae, Episcopi quoque Romanae Ecclesiae Definitionem, 
Ambros. Lib. 10. Epist. 83.  per Literas plaerique meam adhuc expectant Sententiam: After the Resolution of the Church of Alexandria, and also of the Bishop of the Church of Rome, many men yet write Letters unto me, and would also understand my judgement. Pope Liberius himself writeth thus unto Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria: 
Apud Athanasi. Tomo primo.  Si mecum sentis, quoeso subscribas: quò certiores reddamur, num eiusdem nobiscum suffragij sis, eademque statuas de Vera Fide: ut & ego securior efficiar, Tuaque mandata indesinenter obeam: If ye be of my judgement, than I beseech you, to subscribe (your name unto these Articles): that I may be out of doubt, whether you think, as I think, touching the True Faith: and, that I may be the better confirmed in me self, and may evermore do your Commandments without delay. Here you see your Head of the Church offereth himself with all vis Universal Power, to be at the Commaundèment of an other inferior Bishop. bernard, being but an Abbate, writeth thus unto Pope Eugenius: Aiunt, non vos esse Papam, 
Bernar. Epis. 238.  sed me. Et undique ad me confluunt, qui habent negotia: They say, that I am Pope, and not you. And on every side, they, that have suits, come renninge unto me.  
Thus were men wont to seek for Counsel, 
Hierony. in Apologia advers. Ruffin.  not only at Rome, but also, where so ever it might be found. And therefore was Origen called, Magister Ecclesiarum, 
The Pattern of the Faith.  The Enformer, or Master of the Churches: S. Basile, Canon Fidei, The Rule of the Faith: Eusebius Samosatensis, Regula Veritatis, The Standard of the Truth: 
Nazian. ad Simpliciam. Nazian. ad Heronem.  Athanasius, Orbis oculus, The eye of the world: And in doubtful Cases they were as diligently sought upon, as the Pope.  
Here, by the way, it were a worthy matter to consider some of the Profound, and Learned Resolutions, that we have received from the See of Rome. Augustine the Italian Monk, whom some have called the Apostle of England, demanded of Pope Gregory, 
Gregor. Lib. 12. Indicti. 7. Ca 9  by way of great Counsel, whether a Woman with Child might be baptized, or no: and how long afterward it might be lawful for her to come to Church.  
Bonifacius, the Apostle of Germany, demanded the like questions of Pope Zacharie, 
Inter Decreta Zachariae.  whether lays, Daws, Storks, Beavers, Otters, Hares, and Wild Horses be man's meat, or no: what order were to be taken with Man, or Horse, having the Falling sickness: At what time of the year it may be lawful, or wholesome for folks, to eat Bacon: and, if a man list to eat it Raw, how old it ought to be, 
Inter Decreta Alexandri 3. par. 30. Ca 2. Si maculam in oculo.  before he eat it: What may be done, if a Priest have a black in his eye: Who may hallow Oil: who may wear the pall: At what time, in what place, in what sort, over, or under, openly, or secretly, it may be lawful to wear it.  
To these, and other like doubtful, and profound questions, the Pope hath given out his Answers, 
Inter Decreta Gregor. 2. Ad Bonifacium.  and that in such grave, and solemn sort, as if no other Creature under Heaven, besides his Holiness, were able to understand such high Mysteries.  
There fell out sommetime an Odious quarrel between the Thomist s, 
Augusti. De Civitate, Li. 20. Cap. 26. vives.  and Scotistes, whether the Blessed Virgin were conceived in sin, or no. The one side said, Yea: the other cried, Nay. There were Learned men of both sides: Parties grew: The Schools were inflamed: the world was troubled: No Conference, no doctor, no Council was able to quiet the matter, and to make them friends. The Scotistes alleged for themselves the Council of Basile: The Thomists cried out, the Council of Basile was disorderly summoned, and therefore unlawful. In the mids of this heat, Pope Sixtus took upon him, to be judge bitwéene them, and to determine the bottom of the Cause. In conclusion, when all the world looked to be resolved, and satisfied in the question, the Pope Commanded both the Thomists, and the Scotistes, to depart home, and to dispute no more of the matter, but to let all alone: & so left them as doubtful, as he found them.  
A great contention fell out between them, of Ratispone in Germany, and the Abbey of S. Device in France, 
Io. Calvinus de Reliquijs.  whether of them had the whole Body of S. Device: for that either part said, & bore the world in hand, they had the whole. To Rome they went: The Pope sat sadly in judgement: and examined their Allegations, and grew to conclusion: and in the end, gave his advised, & Definitive Sentence, that either part, as well they of France, as also the others of Germany, had the whole Body of S Device: and that who so ever would say nay, should be an Heretic. Of such substance, and certainty are the Oracles of your See of Rome.  
some of your friends have said, 
Cardi. Cusanus, De Authoritat, Ecclesi. & Con. supra, & contra Scripturam.  Veritas per Christum Cathedrae alligata est, non personis: Christ hath fastened his Truth, not to the Popes person, but to his Chair: Meaning thereby, that the Pope, what so ever he decree, or say, sitting in S. Peter's Chair, can never err. And thus, by this Doctors judgement, we are taught, to give credit rather to the Pope's Chair, then to the Pope.  
Yet nevertheless, 
The Pattern of the Faith.  the same Irenaeus, whom ye have here alleged, openly reproved Pope Victor: and S. Cyprian like wise reproved Pope Stevin: for that they thought, 
Euseb. Li. 5. ca 26. Cyprian. ad Pompeium.  notwithstanding their Chair, they were in error. Brasmus, speaking of the Answer of Pope Innocentius unto the Council of Carthage, saith thus, In hac Epistola & Dictionem, & Ingenium, & Eruditionem tali Praesule dignam cogimur desiderare: 
Inter Episto. Augu. Ep. 91. Erasm. Ambros. De Sacram. Li. 3. Ca 1.  In this Epistle we miss both Eloquence, and Wit, and Learning meet for such a Prelate. S. Ambrose saith, In omnibus cupio sequi Ecclesiam Romanam. Sed tamen & nos Homines sensum habemus. Ideo quod alibi rectiùs servatur, & nos rectè custodimus: I desire in all things to follow the Church of Rome. How be it, we ourselves, for that we be men, have understanding, and judgement too. Therefore, what so ever is better kept in other places, we do well to keep the same.  
But, touching the state of Rome, that now is, Arnulphus said openly in y● Council of Rheims, 
Arnulphus in Concil. Remensi.  Cùm hoc tempore Romae nullus sit, ut fama est, qui Sacras Literas didicerit, qua fronte aliquis illorum docere audebit, quod non didicerit? For as much as, now a days, as it is reported, there is none in Rome, that hath Learned thee Scriptures, with what face dareth any of them to teach us that thing, that he himself never learned?  
It is not sufficient to say, The Pope sitteth in Peter's Chair. As antichrist may sit in place of Christ, so may judas sit in place of Peter. S. Jerome saith, 
Hierony. in Osee Lib. 1. Cap. 4.  Bethel, quae priùs vocabatur Domus Dei, postquam Vituli in ea positi sunt, appellata est Bethaven, id est, Domus inutilis, & Domus idoli: Bethel, that before was called thee House of God, after that Hieroboams' Golden Calves were set up in it, was called Bethaven, that is to say, a House unprofitable, and the House of an Idol.  
Therefore we think it better, to examine, & try the grounds of your Religion by the Word of God, that is one, and Uniform, and enduereth for ever, then by your touch of Rome, that is so uncertain, and so mutable, and so often hath deceived us. 
Cyprian. ad Pompeium.  S. Cyprian saith, Si ad Divinae Traditionis Caput, & Originem revertamur, cessat error humanus: If we return to the Head, and Original of the heavenly Tradition (which is the Word of God) all humane error giveth place.  
Touching the rest of your peerless talk, our Brethren in France, whom in your pleasant manner ye call huguenots, burnt not the Body of Irenaeus. They knew, he was a Blessed Martyr of God: and his Body sommetime the Temple of the Holy Ghost. Without any reproach, or villainy, either done, or meant to that Holy Father, if they burnt any thing, which also may well be doubted, they burnt only an Idol, that you had so unreverently set up against the Glory of God. 
Chrysosto. in Genesim. Homil. 67.  Chrysostom saith, joseph moriens air, Ossa mea efferetis hinc vobiscum: Ne Aegyptij memores beneficiorum eius, Corpus justi haberent in occasionem Impietatis: joseph lying in his death bed, said unto his Children, and nephews, ye shall carry my bones with you forth out of egypt: lest the Egyptians remembering the good things, he had done, should use that good man's Body to an occasion of Wickedness, or Idolatry.  
So saith S. Augustine, 
Augusti. De mirabilib. Sacrae Scripturae, Lib. 1. Cap. ultimo.  Nemo conscius erat Sepulchri Mosis, ne populus, si cognovisset, ubi esset, adoraret: Noman was made privy to Moses Grave: lest, if the people had known, where his Body had been, they should adore it.  
Your objection of the Sacrifice is otherwhere answered more at large. S. Augustine saith, 
In the Former Reply. Artic. 17 Augusti. contra judaeos, Cap. 1. Augu. in Psal. 41.  Nunc manibus non offerimus Carnem: Sed cord, & ore offerimus Laudem: Now we offer not up flesh with our hands: but with Harte, and mouth we offer praise. Again he saith, Intùs habeo Sacrificium, quo flectam Deum meum: Within me self I have a Sacrifice, where with I may pacify my God.    

The Apology, Cap. 17. Division. 1. & 2.  
When Eldras went about to repair the ruins of the Temple of God, he sent not to Ephesus, although the most beautiful and gorgeous Temple of Diana were there: and when he purposed to restore the Sacrifices and ceremonies of God, he sent not to Rome, although peradventure he had heard, that there were the solemn Sacrifices called Hecatombae, and other called Solitaurilia, Lectisternia, and Supplicationes, and Numa Pompilius Ceremonial Books, or Manuals, or Portueses. He thought it enough for him, to let before his eyes, and follow the Pattern of the Old Temple, which Solomon at the beginning builded, according as God had appointed him, and also those old customs and ceremonies, which God himself had written out by special words for Moses.  
The Prophet Aggaeus, after the Temple was repaired again by Esdras, and the people might think, they had a very just cause to rejoice on their own behalf, for so great a benefit received of Almighty God, yet made he then all burst out into tears, because that they which were yet alive, and had seen the former building of the Temple, before the Babylonians destroyed it, called to mind, how far of it was yet, from that beauty, and excellency, which it had in the old times passed before. For then in deed would they have thought the Temple worthily repaired, if it had answered to the ancient Pattern, and to the Majesty of the first Temple. S. Paul, because he would amend the abuse of the lords Supper, which the corinthians even then begun to corrupt, he set before them christes Institution, to follow, saying: I have delivered unto you, that thing, that I first received of the Lord. And, when Christ confuted the Error of the Phariseis, Ye must, saith he, return to the first beginning: for from the beginning it was not thus. And, when he found great fault with the Priests for their uncleanness of life, & covetousness, & would cleanse the Temple from all evil Abuses, This house, saith he, at the first beginning was a House of Prayer, wherein all the people might devoutly, and sincerely pray together. And so it were your part to use it now also at this day. For it was not builded to the end it should be a den of thieves. Likewise all the good and commendable Princes mentioned of in the Scriptures, were praised specially by these words, that they had walked in the ways of their Father David: That is, because they had returned to the first and Original foundation, and had restored the Religion even to the perfection wherein David left it. And therefore, when we likewise saw, that all things were quite trodden under foot by these men, & that nothing remained in the Temple of God, but pitiful spoils, and decay, we reckoned it the wisest, and the safest way, to set before our eyes those Churches, which we knew for a surety, that they never had erred, and yet never had, neither Private Mass, nor Prayers in a strange, and Barbarous Language, nor this Corruption of Sacraments, and other toys.  
And, for so much as our desire was, to have the Temple of the Lord restored anew, we would seek none other foundation, than the same, which, we knew, was long agone laid by the Apostles, that is to wit, Our savour jesus Christ. And, for so much as we heard God himself speaking unto us in his Word, and saw also the notable Examples of the Old, and Primitive Church: again, how uncertain a matter it was, to wait for a General Council, and, that the success thereof would be much more uncertain: but specially, for so much as we were most ascertained of Goddess Will, and therefore counted it a wickedness to be too careful, and overcumbred about the judgements of Mortal men, we could no longer stand taking advise with flesh, and blood, but rather thought good, to do the same thing, that both might rightly be done, and hath many a time been done, aswell of other good men, as also of many Catholic Bishops: that is, to remedy our own Churches by a Provincial Synod. For thus we know, the Old Fathers used to put matters in experience, before they came to the Public Universal Council. There remain yet at this day Canons, written in Councils of Free Cities, as of Carthage under Cyprian, as of Ancyra, Neocesarea, and Gangra, which is in Paphlagonia, as some think, before that the name of the General Council at Nice was ever heard of. After this fashion in Old time did they speedily meet with, and cut short those Heretics, the Pelagians, and the Donatists at home, by Private Disputation, without any General Council. Thus also, when the Emperor Constantius evidently, and earnestly took part with Auxentius, the Bishop of the Arians faction, Ambrose, the Bishop of the Christians, appealed, not unto a General Council, where he saw no good could be done, by reason of the emperors might, & great labour: but only to his own clergy, and People, that is to say, to a Provincial Synod. And thus it was decreed in the council at Nice, that the Bishops should assemble twice every year. And in the council at carthage it was decreed, that the Bishops should meet together in each of their Provinces, at least once in the year: which was done, as saith the council at chalcedon, of purpose, that if any Errors, or Abuses had happened to springe up any where, they might immediately at the first entry be destroyed, even where they first began. So likewise when Secundus and Palladius rejected the council at Aquileia, because it was not a General and common council, S. Ambrose Bishop of Milan made answer, that no man ought to take it for a new, or strange matter, that the Bishops of the West part of the world did call together Synods, & make Private Assemblies in their Provinces, for that it was a thing before then used by the west Bishops not seldom, and by the Bishops of Graecia used oftentimes and commonly to be done. And so Charles the Great being Emperor, held a Provincial council in Germany, for putting away Images, contrary to the second council at Nice. Neither pardy even amongst us is this so very a strange, and new a trade. For we have had ere now in England Provincial Synods, and have governed our churches by home made Laws. What should one say more? Of a truth, even those greatest councils, and where most Assembly of people ever was (whereof these men use to make such an exceeding reckoning) compare them with all the churches, which throughout the world acknowledge, & profess the Name of christ, and what else, I pray you, can they seem to be, but certain Private councils of Bishops, and Provincial Synods? For admit peradventure, Italy, France, Spain, England, Germany, Denmark, and scotland meet together: if there want Asia, Graecia, Armenia, Persia, Media, Mesopotamia, egypt, Ethiopia, India, and Mauritania, in all which places there be both many christian men and also Bishops: how can any man, being in his right mind, think such a council to be a General council? And, where so many parts of the world do lack, how can they truly say, they have the consent of the whole world? Or what manner of council, ween you, was the same last at trident? Or how might it be termed a General Council, whereas out of all Christians kingdoms and Nations, there came unto it but only forty Bishops, and of the same, some so cunning, that they might be thought meet, to be sent home again, to learn their Grammare, and so well learned, that they had never studied Divinity?  

M. harding.  
Your waiting for a general Council was not uncertain. For at the setting forth of your Apology, it was far and well entered, and almost ended. What so ever success thereof should follow, ye ought not to have refused it 
* Untruth. For in many respects it was unlawful.  being in all respects lawful.  
Your assurance of God's will is none. That is but your common biewoorde, as it hath always been of Heretics. Ye ought to have showed good evidence for your being sure of God's will, before ye attempted these great and dangerous changes in Religion. Neither becometh it you to call the determinations of a General Council the judgements of mortal men, so much as concerneth declaration of necessary points of faith, but the prompting and teaching of the Holy Ghost.  
As for your provincial Synod, it was none. Synods cannot be kept without Bishops. Before ye claim the name of a Synod for your packing and hudlinge together, ye must prove yourselves Bishops, which ye are not able to do. What so ever ye say, 
‡ Untruth, by many examples soon reproved.  there were never good men, nor Catholic Bishops, that kept provincial Synods, contrary to approved and lawful General Counsels, 
* Untruth. For our Synod is most agreeable to the Old Councils.  as your Synod is most contrary. Neither can ye pretend, that ye followed any old fathers, putting things in experience before the coming to an Universal Council.  
Your Council provincial holden in Germany by Charles the great, against the second Nicene Council general, 
‡ A great Untruth, As it may soon appear.  is a false forged matter, as the Book against Images is, which one Eli Phili the man in the moons son, Caluine, Illyricus, and other Heretics have fathered upon that most godly, and Catholic Emperor.  
The Council, which you mean, was a Godly, and a Catholic Council, holden at Frank ford by Pope Adrian, and Charles the great, 
* Untruth. For the words be plain, Pseudosynodus pro Adorandis Imaginibus, abdicata est. Ado.  against the wicked Council of the Heretics named * image-breakers, which they held a little before that at Constantinople, which of those Heretics was called the seventh, and general, of the Catholics Pseudosynodus, that is to say, the false or forged Council. Of both these Counsels, thus writeth Abbas Vrspergensis, so much commended of Melanchthon: 
In praefat. ad Ducem Bavariae.  The Council which a few years before was assembled at Constantinople, in the time of Irene and Constantine her son, of them called the seventh and General (in this Council holden at Frankforde) was repealed and put away by consent of all, as void and superfluous, so as from thence forth it should be named neither the seventh; nor ought else.  
If you believe not this, as the witness of a Catholic writer, then believe Anselmus Rid an earnest professor of your own the newest Gospel. 
In Catalogo annorum & principum, etc. Bernae impresso, anno. 1550. In additionib. ad Carion. Pantaleo.  Who writeth that Adrian the Bishop of Rome, and King Charles, at the Council holden at Frankforde, execrated, and accursed as Heretical, the Council of the empire of Constantinople and of the Greeks, which they held for thabolishing of Saints Images. Those be his very words. Believe Peucerus Philip Melancthons' son in law writing, that the Council of Nice, was kept by common consent of the Greek Emperor and of Charles. If the second Council of Nice, which was altogether for Images, was holden by consent of Charles, how held he a Council in Germany, for putting away Images, against the Council of Nice? Believe Carion, and specially Pantaleo of Zurich, a man of your own the most evangelical Religion, who upon warrant of th'authority of Regino writeth, that the Council of Frank ford abrogated, and disannulled the Greeks Council, that was against the worship of Images. Briefly, how falsely you and sundry other of your sect have herein belied that worthy Prince Charles the great, it may easily appear by that Paulus Aemylius writeth of him: That he sent twelve Bishops out of France to the Council then holden at Laterane in Rome, in which the image-breakers false named and forged Council was abrogated.  
Where of General Counsels ye make private and provincial Synods, ye do besides learning, reason, and custom of the Church. A Council is not accounted general because Bishops of all Countries under Heaven be assembled, 
‡ by this Rule, the Council of trident was not General.  but because many be assembled, and all be lawfully called. Else in times, when Heresies reign, the Church should never have the necessary remedy of a general Council: for always Heretics would refuse to come to it, as ye have, to come to the late Council at Trent.  
In Persia, Media, egypt, Mauritania, I ween, ye find few Bishops at this day, nor many in the other Countries, which ye reckon, and those in manner altogether ignorant, and schismatics. Yet the patriarchs of Assyria, or Syria Orientalis, and of Armenia, who of late years were at Rome, have for their Provinces both subscribed to the Council of Trent, 
* Untruth, withoutshame, or measure.  and received the whole Decrees of the same for their peoples.  
Your report of forty Bishops only present at the Council of Trent, and of their slender learning, is as true, as your Doctrine contrary to that Council is, 
‡ Untruth manifest. Read the Records. & Subscriptions of the same Council.  that is to say, in plain terms, stark false. It is well known there were at this late Council of Trent in this Pope's time, well near two hundred Bishops.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
What hope we might conceive of your Late Chapter of trident, we were sufficiently warned by the former, holden under Pope Paulus. 3. and Pope julius. 3. wherein, notwithstanding your many years study, and great conference of so many, and so Learned, and so excellent, and so much a do, yet in the end, ye were never able, neither to suppress your open stews, nor to avoid your priests Concubines, nor to cause your Bishops to be resident upon their Charge, and to do their duties, nor to resolve us, whether the Pope be above the Council, 
Omnipotentis Dei benignitaie, & Apostolorum Petri, & Pauli Authoritate freti. Ambros. Catharinus.  or the Council above the Pope. In the Summon, and first Entry of your Assembly there, Pope Paul had forgotten Christ, and left him quite out of Company, and supplied the want of him, with the Authority of Peter, and Paul. An other of your Reverend Fathers there, maketh Marie the Blessed Virgin, Equal with Christ, and calleth her, his most Faithful Fellow: Fidelissimam Christi Sociam. An other of the same Company telleth us, that the Pope is the Light, that is come into the world: Papa Lux venit in Mundum. To be short, the whole Issue, and Conclusion of all your doings there, by the full agreement of all your Fathers, 
Cornel. Episcop. Bitontinus. Sessione. 6. salva semper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate.  hangeth upon the Pope's only pleasure. And, by your Doctrine, the Pope may not be controlled, what so ever he do, neither by the clergy, nor by all the whole World. And, what so ever the Pope shall will, to stay, or pass, your Doctoures tell us, His only Will must stand for Law.  
For these, and other like causes, both the Emperor Charles. 5. & also Francise the French King, 
9 Qu. 3. Nemo. 10. Sleidan. Anno. 1551. Illyric. in protesta. adverse. Conc. Trident. Pag. 24 August de unitate Eccles. ca 10 Eodem Lib. ca 7.  beside sundry other Christian Princes, made open Protestation against your said Tridentine Conventicle, being then removed to Bononia, and said, it was no lawful General Council, but only an Assembly of a few certain persons, to serve one man's affection, and to seek for gain. Such is the opinion, that your own Princes have of your Assemblies.  
It becometh us not, ye say, to call the determinations of your General Councils, the judgements of Mortal men. Yet it became S. Augustine to call the same, Concilia Contendentium Episcoporum: The Councils of quarreling Bishops.  
And again, Humanarum contentionum animosa, & perniciosa certamina: The bold, and hurtful Contentions of worldly quarrels. But what need we many words? Your own Panormitane saith, 
Extra. de Consangui. & Affin. Non debet.  Leges Summorum Pontificum, & Conciliorun appellantur Statuta Humana: & fie strictè non possunt dici Ius Divinum: The Laws, and Determinations of Popes, and Councils, are called the Determinations, and Laws of men: and so in straight manner of speech, they cannot be called the Laws of God.  
Ye say, we are no Bishops, and therefore have no Authority, to hold a Synod. 
1. Cor. 9  Even so your Fathers in old time said, that S. Paul was no Apostle, and that S. Basile, and S. Hilary were no Bishops. Of S. Paul, it is plain. S. 
Hilar. Contra Arianos, & Auxentium.  Hilary saith of himself, Auxentius de Persona mea calumniatus est, damnatum me à Saturnino, audiri, ut Episcopum, non oportere: The Heretic Auxentius layeth a quarrel to my person: and, for as much as Saturninus, the Heretic, hath condemned me, he saith, I may not be heard, as a Bishop.  
Likewise the Arian Heretics used to say, that S. Basile, and other like Learned, and Catholic Fathers of that time, were no Bishops. S. Basile thereof writeth thus: 
councils General repealed by Provincial.  They call the Council of Catholic Bishops a Council of wicked men: neither will they once vouchsafe to name them Bishops, lest they should seem to allow the Decrees, that they have made against them. And they challenge them to be no Bishops, for that, as they say, they are the Captains of a wicked heresy. In like sort he writeth unto Patrophilus, 
Basil. Epist. 72. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Basil. Epist. 82. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  of the Heretic Eustathius: He taketh great heed, lest he should happily be forced to call us Bishops. 
Marc. 1.  Thus, M. harding, in denieing us to be Bishops, 
1. Cor. 15.  ye do none otherwise, but as other your Predecessors have done before you.  
Of the Bishops, and Prelates of your side, I will say nothing. What your own friends have thought of them, I have said before.  
As for us, it shallbe sufficient, if we be only the voice of a Crier in the Wilderness. S. Paul, to avouthe his Apostleship, said openly thus, Gratia Dei sum id quod sum: By the Grace of God, I am, that I am.  
ye say, a Provincial Council may not repeal a Council General: as if the Authority of your Councils stood only in number, and not in Truth. How be it, the Simple Truth of God shall overweigh falsehood, be it never so General. But even thus said Auxentius, the Arian Heretic, against S. Hilary. These be his words, Ego quidem, pijssimi Imperatores, existimo, non oportere sexcentorum Episcoporum unitatem, post rantos labores, ex contentione Paucorum hominum refricari: My most gracious Lords, in my judgement, it is not meet, after so great pains taken, for the contention's striving of a few, to hazard the consent, and Unity of Six hundred Bishops. Thus the Heretic Auxentius alleged great multitudes of his Companions, against S. Hilary, and the Catholics: which, he said, were but a few.  
notwithstanding, it were no hard matter, to show evident Examples of General Councils, that have been overruled by Particulares. The General Council of Nice determined, as you say, that all appeals, out of all parts of the world, should lie to Rome. Yet the Particular, or Provincial Council of Aphrica saith, Si provocandum putaverint, non provocent, nisi ad Aphricana Concilia. 
Epist. Auxentij apud Hilarium. Concil. Aphrican. Ca 92. Sozom. li. 1. ca 23 Concil. Carthaginense. 2. ca 2. Socra. li. 5. ca 17.  Ad transmarina autem qui putaverit appellandum, à nullo intra Aphricam in Communionem recipiatur: If they shall think it good to appeal, let them not appeal, but only to councils that shall be holden within Aphrica. But who so ever shall appeal beyond thee Seas (that is to say, to Rome) let noman within Aphrica receive him to his Communion.  
The General Council of Nice durst not to dissolve priests Marriage: The Particular Council of Carthage dissolved it utterly. The order of Private, or Auriculare Confession, which, in your fantasy, was received generally throughout the whole Church of God, was notwithstanding quite abolished in the Church of Constantinople, only by the Particular advise of Nectarius.  
Your Black Freers in their Particular Chapters, 
Augu. De Civita. li. 20. Cap. 26. vives.  have controlled, and cut of the General Determination of the Council of Basile, touching the conceiving of our Lady in Original sin. And Albertus Pigghius, by his like Particular Authority, 
Alber. Pigghius in Hierarchi.  telleth you, that as well this Council of Basile, as also the Council of Constance, being both General (in that they said, The Council is above the Pope) Decreed plainly against Nature, against the manifest Scriptures, against all Antiquity, and against the Catholic Faith of Christ.  
Certainly, the Truth of God is not bound, neither to person, nor to Place. Where so ever it be, either in few, or in many, it is evermore Catholic, even because it is the Truth of God. In the Council of Constantinople it is written thus, Definierunt pariter, ut, si quid in Provincia qualiber emergeret, 
Historia Triparti. Li. 9 ca 13  Provinciae Concilio finiretur: 
The council of Frankforde.  The Fathers agreed all together, that, if any matter should happen to grow in the Province, by a Council of the Province it should be ended. Likewise saith Isidorus: Manifestum est, quoed illa, quae sunt per unamquanque Provinciam, ipsius Provinciae Synodus dispenset: sicut Niceno constat decretum esse Concilio: 
Isidorus in Praefatione in Concilia.  It is clear, that matters happening in every Province, by a Provincial Synod may be ordered: as it is concluded in the Council of Nice. Likewise S. Ambrose saith, Sciebant esse consuerudinem, 
In Concilio Aquileien.  ut in Oriente. Orientalium esset Concilium: Intra occidentem, Occidentalium: They knew, it was a Custom, that a Council of the East Bishops should be holden in the east: and a Council of the west Bishops apart in the west.  
S. 
Augusti. De Baptismo. contra Donatist. Lib. 2. Cap. 3.  Augustine saith, Literas Episcoporum, & per Sermonem fortè sapientiorem cuiuslibet in ea re peritioris, licet reprehendi, si quid in eyes fortè à Veritate deviatum est: Bishops Letters, if they serve any thing from the Truth, may be controlled by the discretion of any other man, that hath more skill in the matter.  
In like sort Abbate Panormitane your own doctor saith, as it hath been alleged before: 
Extra, de Electi. & Electi potest. significasti. Abb.  In concernentibus Fidem, etiam dictum unius Privati esset praeferendum dicto Papae, fi ille moveretur mehoribus rationibus Novi, & Veteris Testamenti: In matters concerning the Faith, the saying of any one Private Man were to be taken before the saying of the Pope: if he were moved with better reasons of the Old, and New Testament, than the Pope.  
How be it, we have not by our Provincial Council removed, or shaken the Authority of any one ancient General Council, M. Harding. For of all the ancient Councils, that have been, touching the cases, that lie between us in controversy, ye are not yet able to allege one. We have upon good causes removed your Vanities, & unseemly Follies: & have restored again, so much, as in us late, the Decrees, & Canons of the ancient Councils. Hincmarus, the Bishop of Rheims, 
Hinemarus Remensis, Cap. 20.  saith thus: Cùm duarum, aut trium Provinciarum Praesules in unum conveniunt, si Antiquorum Canonum iustitutione muniti, aliquid praedicationis, aut dogmatis instituunt, quod tamen ab Antiquorum Patrum dogmaribus non discrepet, Catholicum est, quod faciunt: & fortasse dici potest, universal: When the Bishops of two, or three Provinces meet together, if they by the warrant of the Old Councils, appoint any matter of preaching, or Doctrine, so that it disagree not from the Doctrine of the Ancient Fathers, it is Catholic, that they do, and perhaps may be called Universal.  
The credit of the Emperor Charles Book, reporting the Decrees of the Council of Frankfoorde, touching the Adoration of Images, I leave wholly to the indifferent discretion of the Reader.  
It was Printed, not at Geneva, as you surmise, but in Parise: The setter out proveth it, not to be forged, by many good, and likely Reasons. An ancient Copy of the same is yet still to be seen in Rome in Laterane, even in the Pope's own Library. Augustinus Steuchus, 
Augu. Steuchus, De Donatione Constan. li. 1. ca 6 Eckius, de Imaginibus.  the Master of the same Library, reporteth the same. The Emperor Ludovicus, Son unto Charles, wrote a Book, yet extant, and remaining in France, to like purpose. friar Eckius also beareth witness unto the same Book of the Emperor Charles, although untruly, and guilefully, as his manner is. For he saith, that Charles wrote four Books in Defence of Images: whereas in deed the Books are directly written against Images.  
Although ye think Eli Phili, or, I know not, who, may easily be charged with corruption, & forgery, yet why the Pope himself should corrupt, & forge his own Book, in his own Library, against himself, it were hard for you to show good Reason.  
The Council of Frankforde, ye say, was Godly, and Catholic, and made Decrees against image-breakers, in the behalf of Images. Yet notwithstanding Aventinus saith, 
A council General.  In Frankfordiensi Concilio Scita Graecorum, de Adorandis Imaginibus, rescissa sunt: 
Auen●●n. Fol. 3, 7.  In the Council of Frankford the Grecians Decrees, for the Adoration of Images, 
Regino.  were quite abolished. Regino saith, Pseudosynodus Graecorum, quam pro adorandis Imaginibus fecerunt, reiecta est: The False Council of the Greeks, which they made for Adoration of Images, was repealed in the Council of Frankforde. 
Ado.  Likewise Ado saith, Pseudosynodus, quam Graeci Septimam vocant, pro Adorandis Imaginibus, abdicata est penitùs: The False Council, which the Greeks call the seventh, wherein Decrees were made for the Adoration of Images, was there utterly put away.  
Hincmarus, the archbishop of Rheims, speaking of the same Council of Frankforde, 
Hincmar. ca 20.  saith thus: Pseudolynodus Graecorum destructa est, & penitùs abdicata. De cuius destructione, non Modicum Volumen, quod in Palatio adolescentulus legi, ab eodem Imperatore Romam est per quosdam Episcopos missum: The False Council of the Greeks was repealed, and utterly overthrow wen in the Council of Frankforde. Whereof, when I was a young man, I read a pretty big Book in the Pope's Palace in Rome: which Book was sent thither by certain Bishops from the said Emperor Charles.  
Certain words of the said Lewd, or False Council of the Greeks, amongst others, 
Citantur in Libro Caroli Magni.  are these: Qui timet Deum, Adorat Imagines, ut Filium Dei: Qui Adorat Imaginem, & dicit. hoc est Christus, non peccat: peccat, qui non Adorat Imaginem. Qui non Adorat imaginem, est Haereticus. Imago Adoranda est eodom cultu, quo Sancta Trinitas: He, that feareth God, adoreth an Image, as he would adore the Son of God: He that adoreth an Image, and saith, This is Christ, offendeth not: He offendeth, that adoreth not an Image: He that adoreth not an Image, is an Heretic: we must adore an Image with the same Reverence. wherewith we adore the Holy Trinity.  
Now, whether these, and other like worthy sayings, and sentences were to be reproved, or no, it may please you, M. harding, to consider.  
That Council, ye say, is called General, not, whereun to all Christian Nations do resort in deed: but whereunto all Christian Nations are lawfully summoned. As this answer is true, & not denied, so by the same, your late Council of trident, may in no wise be called General. For, what lawful Sommones sent your Pope Pius, either to Preter Gian into Ethiopia: or to other Bishops, and Christians in India, or (Europa only, and that not whole, excepted) into any other Kingdom, or Country of the world?  
But ye say, In Persia, Media, egypt, Mauritania, and in other Country's adjoininge, there are few Christians at this day to be found. Yet the Authors of novus Orbis, 
novus Orbis.  describing the state of the world, say thus, In all Countries whither so ever ye come. there be some Christians. Again, In India many Kings, & princes profess Christ. And again, In Armenia, & cilicia, in a manner, the whole people is Christened. Only they are subject to the Cham of Tartary. 
Eol. 324.  Their Priests be married: And, who so is unmarried, may be no Priest.  
ye say, The patriarchs of Assyria, and Armenia, (that never saw, neither the one Country, nor the other) were at Rome (ye know not, when) and subscribed to all the Articles of your Council of trident. O M. harding, ye can grate no great credit by open mockery. It is no hard matter for your Pope, out of his own guard to make such patriarchs enough, one for Jerusalem, an other for Constantinople, an other for Alexandria, an other for Antioch, an other for Sidon, an other for Tyrus: and I marvel, if there be not some Patriarch, one, or other, for Sodom, and Gomorre. These poor Holy, and hungry Fathers are contented at all times, to yield their submissions, and to set their hands to what so ever they shallbe required, 
The number of the Bishops at Tridente  and in the names of those Countries, that they scareely over heard of, to confess, the Pope their master, to be all, & more than al. With such deign shows, and visa●des, it pleaseth you to smooth the world.  
It ye doubt hereof, ye may easily find, that one Augustinus de Roma, in your late Council of Baunle, 
Concil. Basilien. Petrus Paluden. Patriar. Hierosolymitanus. Ceremontar. li. 1 Section. 3.  hare the name of the archbishop of Nazareth in lurie: Likewise, that one Petrus Paludensis, a poor Fréere Obsernante, not long sithence, bore the name of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. But what need more Examples? Your own Ceremoniarie of Rome telleth you thus, Consucueruni Autiqui ponere Patriarchas quatuor Ecclesiarum Principalium, inter Episcopos Cardinales mixtim. Nostro tempore ponuntur immediatè post Cardinals. Sunt enim quodammodo 'Titulares: They were wont in old times, to place the patriarchs of the four Principal Churches together with the Cardinal Bishops, one with an other. But now adays they are placed next beneath all the Cardinals. For in a manner they have now nothing else, but the names of patriarchs.  
It is most certain, that the Christian patriarchs, and Bishops of those Countries, will neither Communicate with the Pope, either in Sacraments, or in Prayers: nor any wise yield to his Authority nor give any manner of honour, or reverence to his person: no more then to Machomete, or Antichrist: as I have sufficiently showed before.  
touching the Number of Bishops, present at your Former Assembly at trident, I refer me self to the Records of the same. If ye find there more than Forty Bishops, I am content to lose my credit. And yet of the same number, Blind sir Roberte of Scotland, as I have said before, & M. Pates of England were silly poor Bishops, God knoweth, endued only with bare names, without bishoprics. 
Flacius Illyricus In protestatione adversus Conci. Trident.  In your later Assembly, two of your Holy Fathers were stain there presently in advowtry. By mean of which misfortune, your number by so much was abated.  
These be the great worthies of the world: These Cornelius Bitontinus, one of the same Company, calleth the Stars of the Churches, and the Mighty Army of God's Angels. These have power to determine matters, that they never understood, by Authority only, but not by knowledge.  
Alphonsus de Castro, 
Alphansus adversus Haereses, Lib. 1. Ca 4. Erasmus, In Epistolam Hieronymi ad Eustochium.  as I have showed you before, saith thus, It is certain, that some Popes be so void of Learning, that they understand not the Grammare Rules. Erasmus, speaking of sundry the great Learned of your side, saith thus, Sibi videntur Semidei, miro supercilio prae se despicientes Grammaticos: Qui si Grammaticae litassent, non ad hunc modum se pueris deridendos propinarent: They think themselves half Gods, and with high looks they despise poor Grammariens. But if they had well Learned their Grammare, they would not offer such occasions, that children, and babes should scorn at their folly.  
Concerning the whole matter, your Doctors of Sorbona in Parise have concluded thus, Vt Concilium legitimè congregetur, sufficit, quoed solennitas, & forma luris solenniter sit seruata. 
Articul. 22.  Quia, si quis trahere velit hoc in disputationem, utrùm Praelati, qui ibi sedent, habeant Rectam Intentionem, & utrùm sint Docti, & utrùm habeant Scientiam Sacrarum Literarum, & animum obediendi Sanae Doctrinae, esset processus in infinitum: That the Council be lawfully assembled, it is sufficient, that the Solemnity, and form of Law be solemnly observed. For if a man would cast doubts, whether the Bishops, that sit in Council, have a good Meaning, and whether they be Learned, and whether they be skilful in the Scriptures, and whether they have a mind to obey sound Doctrine, or no, than we should never make an end.  
These be they, M. harding, to whom ye would have us to give care, what so ever they say, even as to the Secretaries of the Holy Ghost.  
But S. 
Augustin contrae Cresconi. Lib. 3. Cap. 79.  Augustine saith, Ecclesiae inter nos agitur causa, non mea. Ecclesia in nullo homine spem ponere, à suo didicit Redemptore: It is the Church's cause, that we talk of, it is not mine. The Church hath learned of her Redeemer, to put no trust in any man.    

The Apology, Cap. 18. Division. 1.  
How so ever it be, the truth of the Gospel of jesus Christ dependeth not upon Councils, nor, as S. Paul saith, upon the judgements of Mortal Creatures. And if they, which ought to be careful for God's Church, will not be wife, but slack their duty, and harden their hearts against God, and his Christ, going on still to pervert the right ways of the Lord, God will stir up the very stones, & make children, and babes cunning, that there may ever be some, to confute these men's lies.  

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Hereto M. harding answereth nothing else, but thus, The Council is the School of Truth: The Bishops cannot foreslow their duties: The Church of Rome cannot err. Which tales we have so often, and not without weariness heard already. Petrus de Palude, 
Petrus De Palude, De Potesta. Papae. Arti. 4.  amongst other your Doctors saith, Non est credendum, Ecclesiam Romanam errasse à Fide. Ipsa enim potest è contrario cum Christo dicere, Ego Testimonium perhibeo de meipsa. Testimonium meum verum est: No man may believe, that the Church of Rome may err from the Faith: Contrariwise that Church may say with Christ, I bear witness of me self. And my witness is just, and true. Therefore so long, as the Church of Rome can speak for herself, there is no doubt, but all is well.    

The Apology, Cap. 18. Division. 2.  
For God is able (not only without Councils, but also, will the Councils, nil the Councils) to maintain, and anaunce his own Kingdom. Full many be the thoughts of man's harr (saith Solomon) but the Counsel of the Lord abideth steadfast: There is no wisdom, there is no knowledge, there is no counsel against the Lord. 
Hilarius in psal. mum 126.  Things endure not, saith Hilarius, that be set up with man's workmanship: By an other manner of means must the Church of God be buiided and preserved: For that Church is grounded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, and is holden fast together by one corner stone, which is Christ jesus.  

M. harding.  
Where ye say, that by an other manner of means the Church of God must be builded and preserved, show us what other means they are, and we must say, ye are very cunning men, who correct, I will not say, Magnificat, but Christ's own ordinance for government of his Church, 
* By this reckoning, it appeareth not, that God ever orderned Popes, or Car●●alles, to build his Church.  who hath ordained Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, shepherds, and Teachers (as is before mentioned) In aedificationem Corporis Christi, To the building up of the Body of Christ, which is his Church. Ye shall pardon us if we believe S. Paul before you. We see what is the mark ye shoot at, 
The building of God's Church.  that the lawful successors of the Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists, and the lawful shepherds, and Doctors being put from the building of Christ's Body the Church, yourselves may take the work in hand, and govern all, set your hearts as reaste, it shall not be so.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
In deed Christ hath ordained Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, & Teachers, for the government of his Church: notwithstanding the same be not always allowed to sit in Councils, nor be always known by Rochetes, or Mitres. If God had not provided other Pastors, & Feeders, besides your Prelates, the whole Church might starve for hunger. S. Paul's Words be true: but your idle Constructions are untrue. We find not fault with God's Ordinance: but we rejoice in God's Mercy, for that it hath pleased him, to visit his people, and to discover the multitude of these Vanities, wherewith you have so long, and so uncourteously beguiled the world. Therefore we correct not Magnificat, M. harding, as you say: but rather we humbly sing, Te Deum laudamus, and rejoice in God our saviour. The right, & only way of building God's House, is, to lay the foundation thereof upon the everlasting word, and will of God. 
1. Corin. 3. isaiah. 8.  S. Paul saith, Other foundation noman can lay, but the same, that is said already: which is Christ jesus, The Prophet isaiah saith, To the Law (of God) and to the Testimony. If they speak not according to this Word, they shall have no morning Light. Therefore S. Hilary saith, as it is alleged in the Apology, Aliter extruenda, 
Hilarius in Psalmum. 126.  aliter custodienda Ecclesia est: Fundamentum eius super Prophetas, & Apostolos collocandum est. Ecclesia ita à Deo, id est, Doctrinis Dei aedificata, non concidet: Otherwise must the Church be built, and otherwise must it be kept. The foundation of it must be said upon the Apostles, and Prophets. The Church being thus built by God, that is to say, by the Doctrine of God, shall never false.    

The Apology, Cap. 19 Division. 1.  
But marvelous notable, & to very good purpose, for these days, be S. 
Hieronym. in Naum. Cap. 3.  Hieromes words: Whom so ever (saith he) the Devil hath deceived, and enticed to fall asleep, as it were with the sweere, and deadly enchantments of the Mermaids the sirens, those persons doth Gods Word awake up, saying unto them: 
Ephes. 5.  Arise thou that sleapest, lift up thee self: and Christ shall give thee light. Therefore at the coming of Christ, of God's Word, of the Ecclesiastical Doctrine, and of the full destruction of Ninive, and of that most beautiful Harlot, then shall the people, which heretofore had been cast in a trance under their Masters, be raised up, and shall make haste to go to the Mountains of the Scriptures: and there shall they find hills, Imeanemoses, and losua the Son of Nun: other Hills also, which are the Prophets: and Hills of the New Testament, which are the Apostles, & the evangelists. And when the people shall flee for succour to such Hills, and shall be exercised in the reading of this kind of mountains, though they find not one to teach them (for the harvest shall be great, but the labourers few) yet shall the good desire of the people be well accepted, in that they have gotten them to such Hills: and the Negligence of their Masters shall be openly reproved. These be S. Hieromes words, & that so plain, as there needeth no Interpreter. For they agree so just with the things, we now see with our eyes, have already come to pass, that we may verily think, he meant to foretell, as it were, by the Spirit of prophesy, and to paint before our face, the Universal state of our time: the fall of the most gorgeous Harlot Babylon: the repairing again of God's Church: the blindness, and sloth of the Bishops, and the good will, & forewardenesse of the people. For, who is so blind, but he seeth, these men be the Masters, by whom the people, as saith S. Jerome, hath been lead into error, & lulled a sleep? Or, who seeth not, that Rome, that is their Ninive, which sometime was painted with fairest colours, now, her vizard being pulled of, is both better seen, and less set by? Or, who seeth not, that good men, being awaked, as it were, out of their dead sleep, at the light of the Gospel, and at the voice of God, have resorted to the Hills of the Scriptures, waiting not at all for the Councils of such Masters?  

M. harding.  
Ye wrest the saying of S. Jerome to your purpose, that is to say, so as it may seem to be spoken against the Church, that now is, wherein ye make him a Prophet. And that this place might sound the more against the Clergy, to the commendation of the people, and to stir them to read the Scriptures: after your accustomed manner ye stick not to add some what of your own in one place: to take away a little of the Doctor in an other place: to alter the words in an other place. Who looketh so narrowly for trial of this, as your secretary thought maliciously, when he wrote it: by diligent conference of this Apology with S. Herome he shall find it.  
Now, concerning the right sense of the place, S. Hieromes intent was not, to foretell and paint before our face (as you say) the universal state of our time, but to tell, and declare the meaning of the Prophet Nalium. 
‡ Untruth. For S. Jerome in the same place saith, Haec in Consummatione Mundi magis complentur etc. Hucusque de Mundi ruina.  signifying the state of the time now passed, to wit, the time of Christ's first coming into the world: for the words do expressly speak thereof. After S. Hieromes exposition, by Ninive, that Prophet meaneth the world: by the Assyrian King, the Devil. And there he prophesieth the ruin of the world. and of the Devil at the coming of Christ. S. Jerome 
* Untruth. For he speaketh oftentimes of her: and saith plainly, that Rome is Babylon.  speaketh never a word of your harlot Babylon, whereof ye and your unlearned ministers have never done babbling, meaning thereby the Holy Roman Church.  
First you Sir defender, that penned this gear, have played a false part by dividing the one member of the sentence into two: Or rather by putting in one word, and leaving out an other. For, where S. 
In Comment. in Nahum. Cap. 3.  Jerome hath thus, Et consummationis Niniue speciosissimae quondam Meretricis (whereby he meant the undoinge of the devils power in the world once, that is to say 
‡ As though sithence the Birth of Christ, there never had been, neither Ninive, nor Babylon, nor Ignorance, nor Negligence in the clergy.  before the coming of Christ, a most beautiful harlot) that you might give occasion of reproach to the Roman Church, which falsefiing the doctors sense you understand by Ninive, you have set it forth thus, Et consummationis Ninive, & speciosissimae meretricis. Then you descant upon it, as though S. Jerome had so written, and say that he setteth before our face the fall of the most gorgeous harlot Babylon, which you interpret to be Rome. And then further corrupting S. Hieromes sense, you make him to speak of the repairing again of God's Church, as though at this day it were by default of the catholic Clergy fallen down, and should be set up again by you and your Ministers: also of the blindness of the Bishops of our time, that they be the masters by whom the people hath been lead into error, and lulled asleep. And hereto ye add, as saith Jerome, where S. Jerome saith not so neither of the masters at Christ's first coming, but of the Devil, who brought the people asleep, by whom he understandeth 
‡ No doubt: if there be credit sufficient in this Commentary.  not the people that liveth now, but them that were deceived by the Devil under evil masters, before the coming of Christ.  
But because this defender thinketh be hath acquitted himself like a clerk by alleging this place out of S. Jerome against the Catholic Church, I require all the learned to read over what S. Jerome writeth upon the end of the Prophet Nahum, from these words of the text, 
In Nahum. Cap. 3.  Brucus irruit & evolavit etc. forth to the end of the Chapter, and most diligently to mark that goeth immediately before the place by this defender alleged. As for thee, good reader, that understandest not the Latin tongue, I assure thee, S. Jerome speaketh those words 
* As though the Pope's Clerks were not Heretics, and Teachers of False Doctrine.  of Heretics, * of teachers of evil doctrine, of such as will not bear the voice of the Church, of which sort this new english Clergy is. And in that discourse he commendeth to true believers, not only the Hills, that is, the written Scriptures, but also the doctrine of the Church (as thou seest in the allegation put in the Apology) and before that be commendeth likewise Latibula Doctorum, the Caves of the Doctors, in which the faithful people also as by flying to the Hills, couch themselves safe from danger of the Devil stirrer of Heresies. So that if the place be well scanned, by that allegation they shall seem to have made a rod to whip themselves. The whole place being over long to recire here, a sentence or two. that are specially meant of such as they be, may suffice.  
Vae itaque his etc. woe then to those, which are teachers of perverse doctrines in Ninive, by which is signified the world. 
Psalm. 151.  And aptly to them it is said, thy shepherds have stepped, for they have given sleep to their eyes, and slumbering to their eieleddes. And therefore have they not found a place for our Lord, nor atabernacle for the God of jacob. Neither have they heard out of Ephrata, that is to say, Frugifera Ecclesia, the fruitful Church. Nor have they found the Church in the thickettes of the woods. Neither only the shepherds of this riff-raff (mixticij huius, be meaneth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which is the word of the seventy translators, all sorts of people deceived by false teachers) and of the locust (they are the captain Heretics) which in time of frost sitteth in the hedges, have slept: but by the King of Assyrians (who is the Devil) they have been lulled asleep. For always it is the study of the Devil, how he may bring asleep waking souls. Thus S. Jerome.  
Now I report me to those that have eyes to see, whether out new Cleregy may not serme those, whom the Devil hath lulled asleep (gladly I use their own term) in their new devices, in their own liked conceits, in their Schisms, and Heresies, in their unjust possession of Benefices, and bishoprics, those yet living, to whom the right belongeth, in their presumption of that office they are not duly called unto, in their malice toward the Church, in the continual satisfying of their fleshly lusts, and in their unlawful and lecherous embracings.  
Let them fear the dreadful saying of S. Jerome following strait after their allegation: Non est sanitas contritioni tuae, etc. There is no health for thy bruise, thy wound swelleth. Therefore the riff-raff of Ninive can not be healed, because he layeth not down his pride, and the wound is always fresh, and daily he is wounded while the Devil striketh at him. And when all cometh to all, there is no health for his bruise. For although he seem to himself hole, yet is his soul broken, and crushed with the bytle of the whole earth, that fownceth down upon it. And it is not healed, because continually it is lifted up (with pride). But if it become humble, and submit itself to Christ, 
Psalm. 50.  a contrite and an humble heart God despiseth not. Thus describeth S. Jerome these men. Neither let them say, they submit themselves to Christ, whom and whose Gospel they have so much in their mouths, until they follow his doctrine, saying of the governors of his Church, He that heareth you, 
Luc. 10.  heareth me: and he that despiseth you, despiseth me. And this much for answer to the place of S. Jerome.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here is a marvelous work. Sir Defender singeth discante, and quiteth himself like a Clerk: He altereth S. Hieromes mind: He saith, S. Jerome saith so, where as S. Jerome saith not so: He of Proud Ninive, hath made the Church of Rome: He of the Devil, hath made antichrist: He babbleth about Babylon: He divideth one sentence into two: He putteth in one word, and leaveth out an other: He is bulled a sleep: He scattereth his riff-raff: He doth, and saith, I know not, 
Rome. Niviue. Babylon.  what, what so ever it shall please M. harding of his courtesy to report.  
touching this heinous imagined corruption, and altering of S. Hieromes mind, 
Chrysost. in Matthae. Homil. 19  S. Chrysostom saith. Qui mendax est, neminem putat verum dicere, ne ipsum quidem Deum: He that himself is a liar, imagineth, that noman saith the truth, no not God himself. With such corruption, & change of words, Palladius, a lewd fellow, thought himself sommetime able to charge S. Jerome. S. Hieromes words thereof are these: 
Hieronym. Ad Pammach. De optimo genere Interpretandi.  Concionatur, me esse Falsarium: me Verbum non expressisse de Verbo: pro Honorabili, dixisse Charissimum. 
Tom. 2.  Haec, & huiusmodi nugae, mea crimina sunt: He preacheth, and publisheth abroad, 
In eadem Epist.  that I am a falsary: that I have not precisely translated word for word: That I, in sleede of this work, Honourable, have written, dearly Beloved. These things, and such trifles are laid to my charge.  
To these follies S. Jerome answereth thus, Cùm ipsa Epistola doceat, nihil mutatum esse de sensu, nec res additas, nec aliquod dogma confictum, faciunt nae isti intelligendo, ut nihil intelligant: & dum alienam imperitiam volunt coarguere, produnt suam: Whereas the Epistle itself declareth, that there is no alteration made in the sense, and that there is neither matter of substance added, nor any Doctrine imagined, verily by their great cunning, they prove themselves fools: and seeking to reprove other men's unskilfulness, they betray their own.  
ye say, S. Jerome in these words spoke nothing, neither of the Church of Christ, nor of your clergy of Rome. For trial whereof, let S. Jerome himself be heard to speak, as a witness indifferent of himself. First in other places he saith thus (To this place we shall resort afterward) Dicimus, 
Hieronym. in Michaeam, Ca 3.  Non venient super nos mala. Audiamus sententiam Domini. Zion, & Jerusalem, & Mons Templi speculatotium, & visio pacis, & Templus Christi in consummatione, & in fine: We say, There shall no hurt come upon us. Let us hear the saying of our Lord. Zion, and Jerusalem, and the Mount, that is the Watch Tower of the Temple, and the sight of peace, and the Temple, or Church of Christ, shallbe consumed, and brought to an end. These words be plain: not only that haute Lady Ninive, but also the Church, or Temple, that beareth the Name of Christ, shallbe consumed, and brought to an end.  
Likewise he saith, 
Hieronym. in Sophoniam. Ca 2.  Quos Deus inseruit ex Oleastro in radicem Bonae Olivae, si illi immemores recesserint à Conditore suo, & Adoraverint Assyrium, cur illos Deus non evertat, & ad eandem sitim reducat, in qua priùs fuerunt? Even they, whom God hath graffed from out of the Wild Olive tree, into the root of the Good olivie, (that is to say, the children of the Church) if they forgeate themselves, and flee from their Maker, and worship the King of Assyria (that is to say, antichrist, or any other Creature, that is not God) why may not God overthrow them, and bring them to the same thirst, and drought, they were in before?  
Again he saith, 
Hierony. in Matthae. Ca 24. Li. 4.  Abominatio Desolationis, intelligi potest omne dogma perversum: quod cum viderimus stare in Loco Sancto, id est, in Ecclesia, debemus fugere de judaea ad Montes: The Abomination of Desolation, may be taken for any Wicked Doctrine: which when we shall see standing in the Holy Place, that is to say, in the Church of Christ, than we must flee from jury to the Mountains (of the Scriptures).  
And again likewise he saith, Paxillus auferetur de Loco Fideli, hoc est, de Ecclesia, per impietatem quotidiè succrescentem: &, qui super eum antè pependerant Fide, posteà infidelitate frangentur, & cadent, & peribunt: The Pin, or bar (whereby he meaneth Christ, for that the faithful hang upon him, as in a house things are hanged up safely upon a Pin,) shallbe taken away from the place, that was faithful, that is to say, from the Church, because of the wickedness, that daily groweth: And they, that before hung upon him by Faith, afterward, by infidelity, shallbe broken down, 
Rome, Babylon,  and fall, and perish.  
What so ever Gloze ye shall give to the other words of S. Jerome, certainly these words are plain, and evident, & will not easily receive your Gloze. Likewise S. Gregory, speaking, not of the first coming of Christ, but of the time, 
Gregor. in job. Ca 9 Li. 19 Ca 29.  that is described, to be before the end of the world, saith thus: In diebus illis Ecclesia, quasi quodam senio debilitata, per Praedicationem parere Filio● non valebit: In those days the Church, as being overmutche weakened with age, shall not be able by preaching to bear Children.  
Now, 
Hieronym. In Hieremi. Lib. 1. Ca 4.  touching your clergy, S. Jerome himself saith, Ipsi quoque Sacerdotes, qui Legem Domini docere deberent, & subiectos sibi populos à Leonis furore defendere, quodam stupore infatuati, vertentur in amentiam: The Priests themselves, that aught to teach thee Law of our Lord, and to defend the people, committed to their charge, from the fury of the Lion (that is the Devil) being amazed, and bereft of their wits, shallbe turned into madness.  
Again he saith, 
Hieronym. in Naum. Ca 3.  Scit Rex Assyrius, non posse se Oues decipere, nisi Pastores ante consopierit. Semper Diaboli studium est, vigilantes animas consopire: The King of Assyria (that is the Devil) knoweth, that he can never deceive the Sheep, unless first he cast the Shepherds into a trance. It is evermore the devils policy, to lay watchful Souls asleep.  
And therefore again he saith, 
Hieronym. In Sopboniam, Ca 1.  Auferet Dominus nomina Vanae Gloriae, & Admirationis falsae, quae versantur in Ecclesia. Sed & nomina Sacerdotum cum Sacerdotibus, qui frustrà sibi applaudunt in Episcopali nomine, & in Presbyterij Dignitate, & none in opere: God will take away the names of Vain Glory, and False Credit, that are in the Church: and the Names of Priests, together with the Priests themselves, that vainly boast themselves of the Name of Bishops, and of the Dignity of priesthood, but do nothing.  
But about Babylon, ye say, ye never make an end of Babbling. What Babbling then, 
Hieronym. In Catalogo Scriptor. Eccle. in Marco.  I pray you, made S. Jerome, when he said, Petrus in Prima Epistola, sub Nomine Babylonis, Romam significat? S. Peter in his first Epistle meant Rome under the name of Babylon.  
S. Augustine saith, Roma est quasi Secunda Babylon: Rome is as the second Babylon. 
August. De Genesi contra Manichae. Li. 2. Ca 1. Augustin. in Psalm. 44. Primasius in Apocalyp. Ca 16.  Again he saith, Cives Babyloniae nos fecerunt: dimisimus Creatorem: Adoravimus Creaturam: dimisimus eum, à quo facti sumus: Adoravimus illud, quod fecimus: They have made us the Citizens of Babylon: (for) we have left our creature, and have worshipped a Creature: we have left him, that made us: and have adored that thing, that we made ourselves.  
Likewise saith Primasius, Tunc Babylon cadet, quando novissimè potestatem persequendi Sanctos acceperit: Then shall Babylon come to ground, when she shall last of all take power to persecute the Saints of God.  
And again, 
In idem Caput.  Vidi Mulierem sedentem super Vestem Coccineam, plenam Nominibus Blasphemiae, habentem Capita Septem. Septem Capita dicit Septem Montes: Romam, quae super Septem Montes praesidet, significans: I saw a Woman sitting upon a scarlet robe, full of Names of Blasphemy, having Seven Heads. Seven Heads he calleth the Seven Mounts, upon which Rome was built: meaning thereby Rome, that sitteth upon Seven Hills.  
Ludovicus Vi●es, 
August. De Civitate Dei, Lib. 18. Ca 22. vives. Ambrose Ansbertus in Apacalyp. Li. 6.  your own very friend, saith thus: Hieronymus, ad Marcellam scribens, non aliam existimat discribi etc. S. Jerome, writing unto Marcelia, thinketh, there is none other Babylon described by S. john in his Revelations, but the City of Rome. Ambrose Ansbertus saith, Vbi est illa dudum super omnia Regna exaltata Inclyta Roma, Babylon Secunda? Where is that Noble Rome, evanced of late above all kingdoms, the second Babylon?  
I pass over Beatus Rhenanus, 
The people shall flee to the scriptures.  Aventinus, Petrarcha, Dantes, and a great number of other your own Doctors, mentioned before in place more convenient: All whom ye may not of your courtesy charge with babbling.  
Ye say, S. Jerome meant not the state of our time: but only the state of the time now passed: that is to say, as it is said before, The time of Christ's first Coming into the World. And this, in your margin, ye call the right sense of S. Jerome truly reported. How be it, your Reader, that hath eyes to see, may easily find, that this is your own only sense, M. harding, and not S. Hieromes. For, I beseech you, how was Ninive fully destroyed, or what Gospels were there written, 
Hieronym. In Naum. Ca 3. The true sense of S. hierom's words.  at the first Coming of Christ into the world? S. Hieromes meaning, and speech is plain, The people, before the second Coming of Christ, which shallbe in Glory, shall leave their negligent, and idle Schoolmasters, which have of long time deceived them: and shall flee to the Mountains of the Scriptures. And, all be it they find not one to teach them, yet shall their desire, and endeavour be accepted before God, for that they have sought unto these Mountains: and the negligence, and slouthefulnesse of their Masters shallbe reproved.  
To like purpose S. 
Chrysostom. In Gene. Homi. 36.  Chrysostom saith, Fieri non potest, ut is, qui Divinis Scripturis magno study, feruentique desiderio vacat, semper negligatur. Licet enim desit nobis hominis Magisterium, tamen ipse Dominus, supernè intrans in corda nostra, illustrat mentem: rationi iubar suum infundit: detegit occulta: doctorque fit eorum, quae ignoramus: tantùm si nos ea, quae à nobis sunt, afferre velimus: It cannot possibly be, that he, that with earnest study, and fervent desire readeth the Scriptures, should evermore be forsaken. For although we want the instruction of man, yet God himself from above entering into our hearts, lighteneth our mind: poureth his beams into our wits: openeth things, that were hidden: and becometh unto us a Schoolmaster of that, we know not: only if we will do so much, as in us lieth.  
So saith S. Jerome, Postquàm conversi fuerint, & Clarum Christi Lumen aspexerint, 
Hierony. In isaiah. lib. 12. ca 49. Psalm. 23.  pascent in vijs, & in semitis sanctarum Scripturarum: & dicent, Dominus pascit me, & nihil mihi deerit: When they shallbe turned, and shall behold the clear light of Christ, they shall feed in the paths, and ways of the Holy Scriptures, and shall say, The Lord feedeth me: and I shall want nothing.  
Again he saith, Circundabit sibi, quasi murum firmissimum, Scripturarum doctrinam: ne ad interiora eius possit hostis irrumpere: 
Hieronym. In Naum. Cap. 3.  He will enclose himself with the Doctrine of the Scriptures, as with a strong wall: that the Enemy may not enter into his heart. Again he saith, Haec est via: Ambulate in ca Neque ad Dextram, neque ad Sinistram. Tunc omnes Errores, 
Hierony. In isaiah. lib. 9 Cap. 30.  & Idola, & Similitudines Veritatis comminnes, atque disperges, & ita iudicabis immunda, ut ●a menstruatae mulieris sordidissimo Sanguini compares: This is the way: walk in it. Go neither to the Right hand, nor to the left. Then shalt then break, and scatter all Errors, and Idols, and counterfeit likeness of the Truth: and shalt judge them to be so filthy, that thou shalt liken them to most vile, and loathsome blood.  
But, for as much as ye say, All these words of S. Jerome perteive unto some other matter, I know not what, and not unto the overthrow of Babylon, or fall of antichrist, that shallbe before the end of the world, notwithstanding S. Hieromes words of themself be plain enough, yet may it please you, to consider these words of S. Chrysostom, 
Chrysostom. In Matt. Homi 49.  touching the same. Thus he saith: Tunc, qui in judaea sunt, fugiant ad Montes, id est, qui sunt in Christianitate, conferant se ad Scripturas. Montes sunt Scripturae Apostolorum, & Prophetarum, etc. Sciens Dominus tantam confusionem rerum in novissimis diebus esse futuram, ideò mandat, ut Christiani, qui sunt in Christianitate, volentes firmitatem accipere Fidei verae, ad nullam rem fugiant, nisi ad Scripturas. Alioqui, si ad alias res respexerint, scandalizabuntur, & peribunt, non intelligentes, quae sit Vera Ecclesia. Et per hoc incident in abominationem desolationis: Then let them, that be in Jewry, flee unto the Mountains: that is to say, let them, that be in Christ's profession, flee to the Scriptures. The Scriptures of the Apostles, and Prophets, be the Mountains, etc. Our Lord knowing, that there should be such confusion in the last days, therefore commandeth, that Christian men, that believe in Christ, willing to have an assurance of the True Faith, should have recourse to nothing else, but unto the Scriptures. Otherwise, if they have regard to any other thing, they shallbe offended, and perish, not understanding, what is the true Church. And by mean hereof they shall fall into the Abomination of desolation.  
Here, M. harding, no Gloze will serve. Certainly, these words were spoken, not of the first coming of Christ into the world, as you imagine: but of the Kingdom of antichrist, and of the End, & consummation of the world.  
Hereof S. Gregory saith thus: 
Gregori. In job. ca 29. li. 19 ca▪ 9  Ecclesia post eosdem dies, quibus deprimitur, tamen circa finem temporum grandi praedicationis Virtute roborabitur: The Church after these days of her affliction, shall afterward notwithstanding be strengthened with great Power, and might of preaching.    

The Apology, Cap. 20. Division. 1.  
But, by your favour, some will say, these things ought not to have been attempted without the Bishop of Rome's commandment, forsomutche as he only is the knot and band of Christian Society: He only is that Priest of Levies order, whom God signified in the Deuteronomie, from whom counsel in matters of weight, and true judgement ought to be set: and, who so obeyeth not his judgement, the same man ought to be killed in the sight of his brethren: and, that no Mortal Creature hath Authority to be judge over the Pope, whatsoever he do: that Christ reigneth in Heaven, and the Pope, in Earth: that the Pope alone can do as much, as Christ, or God himself can do: because Christ, and the Pope have but one Consistory: That without him is no Faith, no Hope, no Church: and, who so goeth from him, quite casteth away, and renounceth his own Salvation. Such talk have the canonists, the Pope's Parasites, but with small discretion, or soberness. For they could scantly say more, at least, they could not speak more highly of Christ himself.  

M. harding.  
What some will say, we know not. We tell you, that your change of Religion, and manifold Heresies ought not to have been attempted at all, neither without the Bishop of Rome's commandment, nor with his commandment. Touching the Bishop of Rome himself, you have never done with him. He is a great block in your way. And so hath he ever been in the way of all Heretics. Yet could he never by you, or them be removed. To your scoffs against him, and belieinge of the canonists before by you uttered, and here idly repeated, my former answer may suffice.    

The Apology, Cap. 20. Division. 2.  
As for us truly, we have fallen from the Bishop of Rome, upon no manner of worldly respect, or commodity. And would to Christ he so behaved himself, that this falling away needed not: But so the case stood, that unless we left him, we could not come to Christ. Neither will he now make any other league with us, than such a one, 
1. Reg. 11.  as Nahas the King of the Ammonites would have made in times passed with them of the City of Jabes, which was, to put out the Right Eye of each one of the Inhabitants. Even so will the Pope pluck from us the Holy Scripture, the Gospel of our Salvation, and all the Confidence, which we have in Christ jesus. And upon other condition can he not agree upon peace with us.  

M. harding.  
Ye are not fallen from the Bishop of Rome only, which were a damnable schism, but ye are fallen from Christ's Church. Your comparison of the Pope with king Nahas is not very agreeable. But sirs, ye speak more maliciously, then credibly. Be ye good Christian men, and conform yourselves to the Catholic Faith, (and deny Christ, and his Gospel: For, this also ye should have added) and I warrant you, the Pope will not pluck from you, neither the Scriptures, nor your confidence in Christ jesus, no more than he doth from us.    

The Apology, Cap. 20. Division. 3.  
For whereas some use to make so great a vaunt, that the Pope is only Peter's Successor, as though thereby he carried the Holy Ghost in his bosom, & cannot err, this is but a matter of nothing, & a very trifling tale. God's Grace is promised to a good mind, and to any one that feareth him, not unto Sees & Successions. Richesses, saith S. Jerome, may make a Bishop to be of more might, than the rest: but all the Bishops, whosoever they be, are the Successors of the Apostles. If so be the Place, and Consecration only be sufficient, why then, Manasses succeeded David, and Caiphas succeeded Aaron. And it hath been often seen, that an Idol hath been placed in the Temple of God. In old time, Archidamus the Lacedaemonian boasted much of himself, how he came of the blood of Hercules. But one Nicostratus, in this wise abated his pride: Nay, quoth he, thou seemest not to descend from Hercules. For Hercules destroyed evil men: and thou makest good men evil. And when the Phariseis bragged of their lineage, how they were of the kindred and blood of Abraham, 
johan. 8.  Ye, saith Christ, seek to kill me, a man which have told you the truth, as I heard it from God. Thus Abraham never did. Ye are of your Father the Devil, and will needs obey his will.  

M. harding.  
The Pope succeedeth Peter in authority and power. For whereas the Sheep of Christ continue to the worlds end, he is not wise, that thinketh Christ to have made a shepherd temporary or for a time, over his perpetual flock. Then what shepeherdly endoument our Lord gave to the first shepherd, at the institution of the shepeherdely office of the Church: that is he understanded to have geeven ordinarily to every successor. 
Luke. 22.  To Peter he gave that he obtained by his prayer made to the Father, that his Faith should not fail. Again, to him he gave grace that to perform, the performance whereof at him he required, to wit, that he confirmed and strengthened his brethren: wherefore the grace of steadfastness of Faith, and of confirming the wavering and doubtful in Faith, every Pope obtaineth of the holy Ghost for the benefit of the Church. And so the Pope, although he may err by personal error, in his own private judgement, as a man, and as a particular Doctor in his own opinion: 
* Untruth, joined with impudent flattery, & extreme folly.  yet as he is Pope, the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ in earth, the shepherd of the universal Church, in public judgement, in deliberation and definitive sentence 
* Untruth, joined with impudent flattery, & extreme folly.  he never erreth. 
* Untruth, joined with impudent flattery, & extreme folly.  nor never erred. For when so ever he ordaineth or determineth any thing by his high Bishoply Authority, intending to bind Christian men to perform or believe the same, he is always governed and helped with the grace and favour of the holy Ghost. This is to Catholic Doctors a very certainty, though to such doughty Clerks as ye are, it is but a matter of nothing, and a very trifling tale.  
God's grace in one respect, is promised both to a good mind, and to one that feareth God, and also in an other respect, to the successors of Peter. S. Hieromes saying to Euagrius, which now you have alleged three or four times, will not handsomely serve you for so diverse points, as a shipman's hose for diverse legs. 
‡ This place of S. Jerome is answered before, Par. 2. ca 3. Divi. 5.  Once again I tell you, thereby he meaneth nothing else, but that, the greatness of Rome ought not to give Authority to a wrong private custom, (by which Deacons, in certain cases were preferred before Priests) against the right general custom of the world. And bishops be the successors of the Apostles, we grant, yet is the Pope the successor of Peter, 
* Peter was the shepherd, and the Apostles the Sheep. A vain untruth without favour. Cyprian s●the, Christus parem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem.  who was shepherd of all Christ's Lambs and sheep, and therefore also 
* Peter was the shepherd, and the Apostles the Sheep. A vain untruth without favour. Cyprian s●the, Christus parem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem.  of the Apostles themselves, and so hath a higher authority.  
As for your example of Archidamus, who boastingly fetched his pedigree from Hercules, you must consider, succession of virtue always followeth not succession of blood. Now we do● acknowledge in the Pope a succession of shepeherdly power, even such as was in Peter. 
‡ The Pope succeedeth in power but notin Holiness.  Which power is not taken away by lack of Peter's holiness. Christ likewise by his answer to the Phariseis, though he affirmed, they succeeded not Abraham in love of truth, and that for their malice, they were of their Father the Devil: yet ●e denied not, but that they came lineally of Abraham, and were of his blood, though not of his godliness. Such succession mean not we, speaking of the Pope, whose succession is derived of Peter: but the succession of power and authority, and 
* All this may be called the Succession of folly.  of infallibility of Faith in judgement and sentence definitive.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Here we have found one Pope with two Capacities. In one respect he is a Man: in an other respect he is above a Man: but whether, in that respect, he be Angel, or Archangel, it is passed in silence. One way he succeedeth Peter: an other way he succeedeth, I know not, whom. One way he may Err: an other way, though he would never so feign, he cannot err. In his Bed, at his Table, on Horseback, or else where, we may well mistrust him: for in these places he may be deceived, as well, as others. But, in Council, in Consistory, and in place of judgement, it is most certain, ye say, he cannot err. For in these places he hath the Holy Ghost, I trow, at his Commandment. His Power Pastoral, his Succession in Authority, and Infallibility of Faith, his Place, his Chair, & his Consecration, 
salustius in Ciceronem.  are sufficient for ever to preserve him from error. To like purpose Salluste sommetime said of Cicero, Aliud Stans, aliud Sedens, de Republica sentit: While he Standeth up, he hath one mind, touching the common State: When he sitteth down, 
Nicola. Cusanus de Authoritate Ecclesi. etc. Dis. 19 Sic omnes. in Glossa.  he hath an other. Apollo's Nun, while she sat mewed in her Cave, was inspired, and Prophesied, and gave Oracles: but after that she came abroad, she was no wiser, than other women. Thus your Doctors say, as it is before reported, Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae: Papa sanctitatem recipit à Cathedra: The Pope's Truth is fastened unto his Chair: 
The Pope cannot Err.  The Pope from his Chair receiveth his Holiness.  
It shameth me, M. harding, to see you so vainly occupied about these vanities. Ye may well be liberal in dealing hereof. They cost you but little: they are only your own. Scriptures, Doctoures, or Counsels, to witness your sayings, ye allege none. For further declaration of this whole matter, I beseech thee, good Christian Reader, 
Par. 6. ca 5. Di. 2.  to consider the short treaty that I have written before, touching the sundry Errors, and evident Heresies, that have been notably found in Popes. Alphonsus de Castro, one of M. hardings own special Doctors, saith: 
Alphonsus, De Haeresib. li. 1. ca 4.  Non dubitamus, an Haereticum esse, & Papam esse, coire in unum possint, etc. Non enim credo, aliquem esse adeò Impudentem Papae Assentatorem, ut ei tribuere hoc velit, ut nec Errare, nec in Interpretatione Sacrarum Literarum hallucinari possit: We doubt not, whether one man may be a Pope, and an Heretic both together. For, I believe, there is none so shameless a flatterer of the Pope, that will say, (as you say, M. harding) The Pope can never Err, nor be deceived in the Exposition of the Scriptures.  
Likewise Erasmus saith: Si verum est, quod quidam asseverant, Romanum Pontificem Errore judiciali Errare non posse, 
Erasm in Annotationibus, In 1. Corin. 7.  quid opus est Generalibus Concilijs? quid opus est, in Concilium accersere jurisconsultos, ac Theologos eruditos? Si Papa pronuntians labi non potest, cur datus est Appellationi locus, vel ad Synodum, vel ad eundem rectiùs edoctum? Quorsum attinet, tot Academias in tractandis Fidei quaestonibus distorqueri, cùm ex uno Pontifice, quod verum est, audire liceat? Imò qui fit, ut huius Pontificis decreta cum illius Pontificis decretis pugnent? If it be true, that some men say, that the Bishop of Rome can never Errre in error of judgement, what need we then so many General Councils? And in the same, what need we so many lawyers, and learned Divines? If the Pope cannot Err in giving sentence, wherefore lieth there any Appeal from the Pope, either to a Council, or else to the Pope himself being better informed? What need we to trouble so many Universities, in discussing of Matters of Faith, whereas we may learn the Truth of the Pope alone? Nay, how cometh it about, that one Pope's Decrees are found contrary to an others: if it be so certain, that the Pope, who so ever he be and what so ever he say, can never Err?  
That ye speak of Peter's Succession, is vain, and childish. Of such folly Athanasius saith: 
Athana. In Apologia Secunda. Hieronymus ad Euagrium.  Persuasus est, in Magnitudine Vrbium Religionem esse sitam: This wise man imagineth, that Religion standeth in the Greatness of Cities. S. Jerome saith: Potentia Divitiarum, & Paupertatis Humilitas vel Sublimiorem, vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit. Caeterùm omnes Apostolorum successores sunt: The Wealth of Richesse, and the Baseness of Poverty maketh a Bishop neither Higher, nor Lower. But all Bishops be the Apostles Successors.    

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 1.  
Yet notwithstanding, because we will grant some what to Succession, tell us, hath the Pope alone succeeded Peter? And wherein, I pray you, in what Religion, in what Office, in what piece of his life hath he succeeded him? What one thing (tell me) had Peter ever like unto the Pope, or the Pope like unto Peter? Except peradventure they will say thus, That Peter, when he was at Rome, never taught the Gospel, never Fed the Flock, took away the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, hide the Treasures of his Lord, sat him down only in his Castle of S. john Laterane, & pointed out with his finger all the places of Purgatory, and kinds of pounishementes, committing some poor Souls to be tormented, and other some again suddenly releasing thence at his own pleasure, taking money for so doing: or, that he gave order to say private Masses in every corner: or that he mumbled up the Holy Service with a low voice, and in an unknown language: or, that he hanged up the Sacrament in every Temple, and on every Altar, and carried the same about before him, whither soever he went, upon an ambling jannet, with lights, and bells: or, that he Consecrated with his Holy Breath, Oil, Wax, Wulle, Bells, Chalices, Churches, and Altars: or that he sold jubilees, Graces, Liberties, Aduousons, Preventions, first fruits, Palles, the wearing of Palles, Bulls, Indulgences, and Pardons: or that he called himself by the name of the Head of the Church, the Highest Bishop, Bishop of Bishops, alone moste Holy: or, that by usurpation he took upon himself the Right & Authority over other bishops Churches: or that he Exempted himself from the Power of any Civil government: or that he maintained Wars, and set Princes together at variance: or that he sitting in his Chair, with his triple Crown full of labels, with sumptuous and Persianlike gorgeousness, with his Royal Sceptre, with his Diadem of gold, and glittering with stones, was carried about, not upon palfrey, but upon the shoulders of Noble men. These things, no doubt, did Peter at Rome in times passed, and left them in charge to his Successors, as you would say, from hand to hand: for these things be now a days done at Rome by the Popes, and be so done, as though nothing else aught to be done.  

M. harding.  
The Pope alone hath succeeded S. Peter. Ask you wherein? in what Religion? in what office? We tell you, he succeeded in Peter's Chair, in which he sat at Rome, and ruled the Church, in Christian Religion, 
* Untruth. For the Pope feedeth not.  in that office which Christ committed to Peter, when he said, Pasce oves meas, Feed my Sheep. Then which office he never gave greater, nor with like circumstance of charge, nor to any other gave he it, then to Peter. For to him alone, he said, Feed my Sheep. What ask ye us of this officers life?  
You ask what thing had Peter ever like unto the Pope, or the Pope like unto Peter. We tell you. Peter had authority to fide Christ's sheep, like unto the Pope. And the Pope hath authority to feed Christ's Sheep, like unto Peter, 
‡ And well proved.  Like power, like commission. He that gave them authority to feed, gave them also authority to do what so ever may pertain to feeding.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
For that ye tell us so many fair tales of Peter's Succession, we demand of you, wherein the Pope succeedeth Peter? You answer, He succeedeth him in his Chair: as if Peter had been sommetime installed in Rome, and had sat solemnly all day with his Triple Crown, in his Pontificalibus, and in a Chair of gold. And thus, having lost both Religion, and Doctrine, ye think it sufficient, at least to hold by the Chair: 
Peter's successor.  as if a Soldier, that had lost his sword, would play the man with ●he scabbard. But so Caiphàs succeeded Aaron: So wicked Manasses succeeded David: So may antichrist easily sit in Peter's Chair.  
Chrysostom saith: Non Cathedra facit Sacerdotem: sed Sacerdos Cathedram. Nec Locus Sanctificat Hominem: 
Dis. 40. Multi.  sed Homo Locum: It is not the Chair, that maketh the Bishop: But it is the Bishop, that maketh the Chair. Neither is it the Place, that halloweth the Man: But it is the Man, that halloweth the Place. Likewise S. Jerome saith: 
Dis. 40. Non est facile.  Non Sanctorum filii sunt, qui tenet loca Sanctorum: Theiare not always the Children of Holy men, that sit in the roum●●●● Holy men.  
He doth great wrong unto S. Peter, that placeth such a one in such a Chair. For neither is the Pope in any thing like S. Peter: nor was S. Peter in any thing like the Pope. When Simeones saw that Arsacius, an unlearned, and an unworthy Old Doatinge man, 
Nicepho. li. 13. cap. 28.  was placed in Chrysostom's room, he cried out, prò pudor: Quis, cui? Out for shame: what a soary hind is this? and in whose place have we set him? Even so may we justly say of the Pope's sitting in Peter's Chair, prò pudor, Quis, Cui?    

The Apology, Cap. 21. Division. 2.  
Or contrariwise, peradventure they had rather say thus, that the Pope doth now all the same things, which we know, Peter did many a day ago: that is, that he runneth up and down into every Country, to Preach the Gospel, not only openly abroad, but also privately from house to house: that he is diligent, and applieth that business, in season, and out of season, in due time, and out of due time: that he doth the part of an evangelist, that he fulfilleth the work, and ministery of Christ, that he is the watchman of the House of Israel, receiveth answers, and words at God's mouth: and, even as he receiveth them, so he delivereth them over to the people: That he is the Salt of the Earth: That he is the Light of the world: that he doth not Feed himself, but his Flock: that he doth not entangle himself with the worldly cares of this life: that he doth not use a Sovereignty over the lords people: that he seeketh not to have other men Minister unto him, but himself rather Ministereth unto others: that he taketh all Bishops as his Fellows, and Equals: that he is Subject to Princes, as to persons sent from God: that he giveth to cesar that, which is caesars: and that he, as the Old Bishops of Rome did without contradiction, calleth the Emperor his Lord. unless therefore the Popes do the like now a days, as Peter did the things aforesaid, there is no cause at all, why they should glory so much of Peter's name, and of his Succession.  

M. harding.  
The Pope now runneth not up and down into every country, he goeth not openly and privately, from house to house, and to every alehouse, as ye would him to do, like one of your ministers: Neither, I trow, ye masters, that be Superintendentes yourselves, think it convenient, that ye go from house to house, to preach your Gospel at these dates. And would ye the Pope to abase himself to that ye think becometh not yourselves? He hath (as meet it is) other fit men to help to bear his burthea with him. And whereas one body sufficeth not for so great and so many affairs: for Council, he hath many heads: for oversight, many eyes: for ear, many hearts: for preaching, many tongues: for work, many hands: for knowledge, many ears: for expedition of matters, many feet: for the great weight of his charge, many shoulders: briefly, for all necessary and behooveful cases, convenient helps. The like helps would S. Peter use, were he now living.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
To speak of the Pope's running up, and down, from alehouse to alehouse, it is great folly. It should be sufficient, if he would go from Church to Church, and remember his Charge, and Feed the Flock, & Preach the Gospel. Ye say, The Pope hath many heads, many eyes, many hearts, many tongues, many hands, many ears. many shoulders: And thus, of your Pope ye make a Monster, with many eyes, ears, tongues, and hearts of others, & none of his own. A wise man sommetime said: Improbè facit, 
Titus Livius.  qui, cùm alienis oculis omnia ei agenda sint, postulet aliorum vitas committi sibi: It is but lewdly done, if a man, that must oversee all things with other men's eyes, desiere to have the lives of others committed over to his charge.  
God give him eyes to see, and ears to hear, and heart to understand: that he may know the time of God's Visitation.    

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 1.  
Much less cause have they, to complain of our departing, and to call us again to be fellows & friends with them, and to believe as they believe. men say, that one Cobilon a Lacedaemonian, when he was sent ambassador to the King of the Persians, to treat of a league, and sound by chance them of the Court plaieing at dice, he returned straight way home again, leaving his message undone. And when he was asked, why he had slackte to do the things, which he had received by public Commission to do, he made answer, he thought it should be a great reproach to his Common Wealth, to make a league with Dicers. But, if we should content ourselves to return to the Pope, and to his Errors, and to make a covenant, not only with Dicers, but also with men far more ungraceous, and wicked, than any Dicers be: besides that, this should be a great blot to our good name, it should also be a very dangerous matter, both to kindle God's wrath against us, and to clog and condemn our own Souls for ever.  

M. harding.  
Ye do well to compare yourselves with this Cobilon. For in deed 
* We flee wicked Company, as he did.  ye do as he did. Ye were sent 
‡ Untruth. For where did Christ ever send us to the B. of Rome?  by Christ to his Vicar, Peter's Successor, to be fed and governed like sheep under the shepherd Christ and his Church be a perfit body, he the head, the true believers knit together in charity the members▪ each one in his order and degree. He is the vine, we the boughs and branches. 
* By this Rule the Pope is left void of life: for that he is divided from Christ, that is the head.  What member cut of from the body, liveth? what bough broken from the tree, groweth? As every such member dieth, and bough withereth: So if ye remain not in the Catholic Church, which is the body of Christ, ye draw no life from the head, ye have no part of the Spirit, that from thence redoundeth to every member, ye have no portion of the vital iovysse that issueth from the root. Then what remaineth, but that ye be cast into the fire? For this cause S. Cyprian and other Fathers, often times have said, that out and besides the Church, there is no salvation.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Christ never told us, neither of any his Vicar General: nor of Rome: nor of Laterane: nor of Peter's Chair: nor willed us to have recourse to the Bishop of Rome, more than to any other several Bishop. Therefore, M. Harding, we must reckon this amongst the rest of your Untruths.  
It is true, that you say, A member divided from the Body cannot live. But your Conclusion is Untrue, like the rest. For, Rome is not the Body, but only a Member of the Body: Rome is not the Tree, but only a Bough: Rome is not the Head, but only a Spring. And therefore, seeing, it is now divided from that Body: seeing, it is broken from that Tree: seeing, it is cut of from that Head, it is no marvel, though it be starved, though it be weathered, though it be left dry, without either Spirit, or life: As this day it appeareth to the eyes of all them, that will behold it.    

The Apology, Cap. 22. Division. 2.  
For of very truth, we have departed from him, whom we saw, had blinded the whole world this many a hundred year: From him, who too far presumptuously was wont to say, he could not err, and, what so ever he did, no mortal man had power to condemn him, neither Kings, nor Emperors, nor the whole Clergy, nor yet all the people in the world together, no, though he should carry away with him a thousand Souls into Hell: From him, who took upon him power to command, not only men, but even the Angels of God, to go, to return, to lead Souls into Purgatory, & to bring them back again, when he list himself: who, Gregory saith, without all doubt, is the very forerenner, and standard bearer of antichrist, and hath utterly forsaken the Catholic Faith: From whom also these ringleaders of ours, who now with might, and main resist the Gospel, and the truth, which they know to be the truth, have ere this departed every one of their own accord, & good will: and would even now also gladly depart from him again, if the note of inconstancy, and shame, & their own estimation among the people, were not a let unto them. In conclusion, we have departed from him, to whom we were not bound, and who had nothing to lay for himself, but only, I know not what, virtue, or power of the place, where he dwelleth, and a continuance of Succession.  

M. harding.  
As ye confess your departing, so would God ye understood your guilt.  
Those reverent Fathers, and Godly learned men, whose rooms ye hold wrongfully, whom it liked your interpreter to call Ringleaders, resist not the Gospel, but suffer persecution for the Gospel. Your Gospel, that is to say, your vile heresies and blasphemies, worthily they detest. Your new troth, that is to say, your false and wicked lies, they abhor. Neither ever departed they from any part of the duty of Catholic men, 
* M. hardings Reverend Fathers continued twenty years together in hypocrisy.  by their own accord and good will, as ye say. 
* M. hardings Reverend Fathers continued twenty years together in hypocrisy.  But wherein they slept aside, they were compelled by such fear, as might happen to a right constant man, I mean the terror of death, which, as Aristotle saith, of all terrible things is most terrible. Now because yet they find the terror of a guilty conscience, more terrible than death of their persons, they intend by God's grace assisting them, never so to step aside again, but rather to suffer what so ever extremities. Whose blood, or the blood of any of them, if God to his honour shall at any time permit mitte you to draw, 
Persecution.  which so much ye thirst, soon after look ye for the returning of the Israelites again, that text being then fulfilled, Complerae sunt iniquitates Amorrhaeorum.  
Were not they well assured of the truth, most certain it is, what so ever ye say, they would not make so foolish a bargain as yourselves do, as to buy vain estimation among the people, with the certain loss of their souls.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
Certain of your friends, whom ye call Reverend Fathers, suffer imprisonment, ye say, and persecution for the Gospel. notwithstanding, it is not so long sithence the said Reverend Fathers, were themselves the Burners, and Persecutors of the Gospel. 
Epiphanius. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  Such complaint sommetime made Arius the wicked Heretic. For thus he writeth, I Arius, that suffer persecution for the Truth, that ever prevaileth. Ruffinus, notwithstanding he were a great favourer of the Origenian Heretics, yet he said, even as you say, Nostra Fides, persecutionis Haereticorum tempore, cùm in Sancta Alexandrina Ecclesia degeremus, in carceribus, & Exilijs, 
Hieronym. Aduersus Ruffinum lib. 2. Hiero. eodem loco.  quae pro fide inferebantur, probata est: While we lived in the Holy Church of Alexandria, in the time of the persecution of Heretics, Our Faith was proved in prisons, and Banishementes, which were laid upon us for the faiths sake. Unto whom S. Jerome in his pleasant manner answereth thus: Miror qu'd non adiecerit, Vinctus jesu Christi: Liberatus sum de ore Leonis: Alexandria ad bestias depugnavi: Cursum Consummavi: Fidem seruavi: Superest mihi corona justitiae: I marvel much, that he said not further. Ruffinus the Prisoner of jesus Christ: I was delivered out of the Lion's mouth: I was thrown amongst wild beasts at Alexandria: I have passed my Course: I have kept the Faith: Now there remaineth for me the Crown of Righteousness.  
Thus the Wolf, when he is restrained from spoil and raven, may likewise complain of Persecution.  
S. 
Hieronym. Ad Apronium.  Jerome, writing unto Apronius of the state of the east Churches, where he than lived, saith thus: Hîc quieta sunt omnia. Etsi enim venena pectoris non amiserint, tamen os impietatis non audent aperire. Sed sunt sicut aspides surdae, obturantes aures suas: All things here are quiet. For, all be it they have not left the poison of their bartes, yet they dare not open their wicked mouths. But they are as the deaf Serpents, shutting up their ears, and will hear nothing.  
The said Reverend Fathers, that, as now, sit so firmly of your side, not long ago, were well contented, both to maintain, and to publish the contrary, as well, as you. How be it, all this, you say, they did not of good will, but only of fear, and of such fear, as may happen upon a constant man: that is to say, of mere Hypocrisy, and Dissimulation, and by open flattering of their Prince.  
And thus, to save your Fathers from being Schismatics, ye are well content to make them Hypocrites. 
Stephan Gardi. De vera Obedien.  Thus say you. But your said Reverendes themselves would have told you far otherwise.  
Doctor Gardiner of himself saith thus: 
He examineth the matter with all his senses.  In the discussing, and trial of the truth, I did not so easily content myself. But I so framed myself, that, as it had been in asking the judgement of all my senses, unless I perceived, that I first of all heard them with mine ears, smelled them with my nose, saw them with mine eyes, 
He is persuaded by the woorkinge of God's grace.  and felt them with my hands, I thought, I had not seen enough. Again he saith: This advised consideration hath pulled away all scrupulous doubts: And by the woorkinge of God's Grace, 
He is compelled by the power of the Truth.  hath conveyed and brought them into the light of the verity.  
And again, In deed to tell you at a word, that compelled me, that compelleth all men, even the mighty power of the Truth.  
Likewise saith Doctor Bonner, 
Truth prevaileth.  touching the same: 
Doctor Bonner, In praefatione in Veram Obedientiam.  The matter was not rashly taken in hand: but with judgement, and wisdom examined, and discussed. Again he saith, The Bishop of Winchester had long ago thorowely bolted this matter, even unto the bran.  
If these tales be true, 
He examineth the matter to the uttermost.  M. harding, then is your tale most untrue. Certainly, being directly contrary, to make them both true, it is not possible.  
But here ye begin to fray us with your Prophetical threats. If we once begin to touch your Blood, then, ye say, your Lovanian Israel immediately afterward shallbe restored: I think, you mean, Domus jacob de populo Barbaro.  
In such blind Prognostications, I have no skill. God oftentimes suffereth iniquity, and falshedde to prevail for a season, to chasten the unkindness of his people. Let his will be done with mercy, as it shall seem good in his eyes. But if ye prevail again, ye shall prevail to your own confusion. Well ye may repress the Truth of God, as your Fathers have often done before: But utterly to abolish it, ye shall never be able.  
Such vain hope had the jews in old times, to recover their Religion, and Ceremonies, and utterly to overthrow the gospel of Christ. They conspired together, got Masons, and Carpenters, and began to cast the foundation, to repair their Temple. 
Chrysostom. In Oratio. contra judaeos.  Immediately the Emperor Constantine raised a power, and set upon them, and put them to the sword, as Rebels, and Traitors. Others, that he spared alive, he made slaves, and cut of some their tongues, some their hands, some their cares, some their noses: some he burnt in the face: and so sent them abroad, for an example, from Town to Town throughout the World.  
afterward, 
Ambrose, li. 5. Epist. 29.  when the wicked Emperor julian, in despite of Christ, had given the jews leave to build, and repair, as is said before, and, the Prince's power assisting them, no power seemed able to withstand their purpose, than God himself from Heaven above encountered with them. Earthequakes broke out, and overthrew their buildings. lightnings fell down, and burnt both the tools in their hands, and the coats on their backs. Then was the Gospel of Christ more bewtieful, and more glorious, then ever it had been before.  
S. Gregory saith, 
Gregor. In primum Regum. cap. 4. li 3. ca 5.  Tulerunt Dagon, & restituerunt eum in locum suum. Hoc est, in Templo, ubi Arca Dei posita fuerat. Quid est ergo Dagon in locum suum restituere, nisi Idololatriae statum subtili consideratione perquirere? Et quia, quò subtiliùs Idololatriae error aspicitur, eò veriùs condemnatur, subiunctum est, Rursus diluculo surgentes invenerunt Dagon iacentem super faciem coram Arca Domini: They took the Idol Dagon, and restored him again into his place: that is to say, in the Temple of God, where the Ark of God was placed before. And what is it, to restore again Dagon into his place, but discreetly, and advisedly to examine the state of Idolatry? And, for as much as, the better the error of Idolatry is seen, the better it is condemned, therefore it followeth further, They rising in the morning, found Dagon lying flat upon his face, before the Ark of the Lord.  
Even so, M. harding, if ye raise up your Dagon once again, once again he shall come to ground, and shall squatte his hands, and feet, and be utterly dismembered by the fall, and shall lie grovelinge, as a block, before the presence of the Ark of God. 
prover. 21.  There is no Counsel against the Lord.  
The Noble Prince josua, after that he had once, by God's commandment, destroyed thee City of jericho, 
josua. 6.  adjured all his posterity in this sort: Accursed be he before jehova the Lord, that shall stand up, and restore this City of Hiericho. In the death of his eldest son he shall lay the foundation: and in the death of his youngest child he shall close the gates.  
Theodoretus saith, 
Persecution.  The wicked shall not be able to prevail against God. 
Theodoret. Eccle. histor. fol. 285. in Graeco. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  But if they once get the over hand, yet shall they come down again: as it is written by the Prophet isaiah.  
As for drawing of your blood, ye need not so greatly to complain. The Gospel of Christ is not bloody. It hath hitherto prevailed without any one drop of all your blood. God give you grace, to repent, left your own blood be upon your own head in the day of the Lord. Fire, and sword, and merciless Cruelty are the only instruments of your Doctrine. And therefore ye seem now to say, 
Genesis 27.  in your blind hope, as cursed Esau sommetime said of his Brother Jacob. Venient dies luctus patris mei, & occidam jacobum Fratrem meum: The days shall come, that my Father shall die. Then will I kill my Brother jacob.  
Athanasius saith, 
Athanasius, Ad Solitariam vitam agentes.  Caedi Christianorum proprium est: Caedere autem Christianos, Pilati, & Caiphae, officia sunt: It is the part of Christians, to suffer persecution: But to persecute the Christians, it is the very office of Pilate, and Caiphas.  
We will say unto you with S. Augustine: 
Augustin. Contra Epistolam Fundamenti. cap. 1.  Illi in vos saeviant, qui nesciunt, quo cum labore verum inveniatur, & quàm difficilè caveantur errores: Let them persecute you, and use cruelty over you, that know not, what a labour it is, to find the truth: and how hard it is, to beware of error.  
Again he saith: Nemo de praeteritis insultat Erroribus, nisi qui Divinam Misericordiam expertus non est, ut careret erroribus. Tantum id agamus, ut errores aliquando finiantur: No man upbraideth others with errors passed, but he, that hath not felt Gods Divine Mercy, to be void of errors. Let this be our only labour, that errors at last may have an end.  
We will say of you, as S. Peter sommetime said of Simon the Sorcerer, when the people for anger, seeing his falsehood, would have stoned him to death, 
Abdias in Tetro  Imò vivat, & Regnum Christi crescere videat, vel invitus: Nay, nay, let him live: and let him see the kingdom of Christ to grow, and prosper, even against his wil    

The Apology, Cap. 23. Division. 1.  
And as for us, we of all others most justly have left him. For our Kings, yea even they, which with greatest Reverence did follow, and obey the Authority, & Faith of the Bishops of Rome, have long since found, and felt well enough the yoke, and Tyranny of the Pope's kingdom. For the Bishops of Rome sometime took the Crown from the Head of our King, Henry the second, and compelled him to put aside all his Princely state, and Majesty, and, like a mere Private man, to come unto their Legate with great summission, and humility, so as all his Subjects might laugh him to scorn. More than this, they caused Bishops, and Monks, and some part of the Nobility, to be in the field against our King john, and set all the people at liberty from their oaths, whereby they ought allegiance to their King: and at last, wickedly, and most abominably they bereeved the same King, not only of his Kingdom, but also of his life. Besides this, they Excommunicated, and cursed King Henry the eight, that most famous Prince, and stirred up against him, sommetime the Emperor, sommetime the French King: and as much as in them was, put our Realm in hazard to have been a very pray, and spoil unto the Enemy. Yet were they but fools, and mad men, to think, that either so mighty a Prince could be feared with bugs, & rattles: or else, that so Noble, and great a Kingdom might so easily, even at one morsel, be devoured, and swallowed up.  

M. harding.  
Concerning the case between these three Kings of England, and the Bishops of Rome for the time being, I say little. If they did well, and the Bishop's evil, they have their reward: the other, their punishment. ●f otherwise, or how so ever each one at God's judgement shall have his deserved measure. But be it granted, all were true, ye say, though we know the more part to be false. What though King Henry the second were evil treated of Pope Alexander, about the murdering of S. Thomas the archbishop of Cantorbury, and King john likewise of that zealous and learned Pope Innocentius the third? etc.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
notwithstanding the Pope, as his manner hath been, raise Commotion within the Realm, and arm the subjects against their Sovereign, and pull the Crown Imperial from his head, yet, by your Doctrine, who so ever dare speak in his Princes right, is a fool, and killeth himself: as if there were no life, or salvation, but only under the frantic government of the Pope. Such obedience, and loyalty the Pope hath taught you towards your Prince.    

The Apology, Cap. 23. Division. 2.  
And yet, as though all this were too little, they would needs have made all the Realm Tributary to them, & exacted thence yearly most unjust and wrongeful taxes. So dear cost us the friendship of the City of Rome. Wherefore, if they have gotten these things of us by extortion, through their fraud, and subtle sleights, we see no reason, why we may not pluck away the same from them again, by lawful ways, and just means. And, if our Kings in that darkness, and blindness of the former times, gave them these things of their own accord, and liberality, for Religion's sake, being moved with a certain opinion of their feigned holiness: now, when the ignorance and error is spied out, may the Kings their Successors take them away again, seeing they have the same Authority, the Kings their Ancestors had before. For the gift is void, except it be allowed by the will of the giver: and that cannot seem a perfect will, which is dimmed, and hindered by error.  

M. harding.  
As for Peterpens, and what other so ever sums of money were yearly paid to the Church of Rome, which were not by extortion suttil sleights by the Popes gotten, as ye slander, but freely and discreetly by the prince and the realm 
* No doubt. For the very cause hereof was Avarice, and treachery.  for a great cause granted, it is not a thing that so much grieveth the Pope, as your departure from the true faith and Church doth, as it may well appear by that which happened in Queen Mary's reign. In which time although the Pope were acknowledged▪ yet himself never was known to have demanded his Peterpens, or any other yearly payments again. But what is this to your schisms and Heresies? This healpethe you nothing for answer to the heinous crime of your Apostasy. The liberality of our country to the see of Rome, which is the mother of all the west Churches, 
The Pope's Exactions.  hath been so small in comparison of certain other Realms, as with the honour of the Realm it might not seem to find itself grieved therewith. Yet here ye set a gnat to an Elephante, and make great ado about a little. The Realm is not so much enriched by retaining that small sum from the Pope, as it is dishonoured by your undiscrete talk, saveringe altogether of misery and niggardness. Ye should have showed better stuff at least in th'end of your book. The last act of a fable, by rules of Poeterie should be best. Ye have done like a foolish Poet, making your end so bad. The Pope seeketh not your money, he seeketh you He seeketh the safety of your souls. 
* But remember the Old Verse, Curia Romana non captat oven sine lana.  He seeketh, like a good shepherd, how to reduce the streied sheep of England unto the fold of Christ's Church, God grant we may see his good intent happily achieved.   

The B. of Sarisburie.  
The Pope hath enriched himself, and gotten the treasures of the world into his own hands, not by fraud, or guile, as you say, but only by the free liberality of Kings, 
August. De Verbis Domini Secundum Matth. Sermo. 19  and Princes. Yet S. Augustine saith, Non possumus dicere, Nemo nos invasores arguit: violentiae nullus accusat: Quasi non maiorem interdum praedam à viduabus blandimenta cliciant, quàm tormenta. Nec interest apud Deum, utrùm vi, an circumuentione quis res alienas occupet: dummodò quoquo pacto teneat alienum: We cannot say, No man chargeth us with extorsion: noman accuseth us of violence. For oftentimes of poor widows a man may get more by flattery, then by racking. And there is no difference before God, whether a man hold an other man's goods by open violence, or by guile: if the thing, that he holdeth, be not his own.  
But how may this by your learning, M. harding, be called the liberality of the Prince? He is liberal, that is free in bestowing of his own. But you tell us, that all the Temporal goods of the world are the Popes, and not the Princes: and that the Prince hath nothing, but by favour & sufferance of the Pope. Your Doctors words be these, 
Archidiacon De Haeresi. Ver. Et quia tanta Fo. 15 Matthae. 4. Citatur à Felino▪ de Offic. & potest. judicis delega. Ex part. 1. johan▪ De Parisijs, de potestat. Regia, & Papali.  Papa est Dominus omnium temporalium: secundum illud dictum Petri, Dabo tibi omnia regna mundi: The Pope is the Lord of all temporal goods: according to that saying of S. Peter (that S. Peter never spoke: for they are the words of the Devil) I will give thee all the Kingdoms of the world.  
An other of your Doctors saith thus, Dicunt, quòd solus Papa est verus Dominus temporalium, ita quòd potest auferre ab alio, quòd aliâs suum est. Sed praelati caeteri, & Principes, non sunt Domini, sed Tutores, Procuratores & Dispensatores: They say, that the Pope only is the very Lord of Temporal things so that he may take from any man, that is his own. As for other Prelates, and Princes, they be the overseers, and fermours, and stewards of worldly things, but not the Lords. And Mathias Parisiensis saith, that Pope Innocentius 3 called King john the King of England, Vasallum suum, That is to say, his feed man, or his tenant: meaning thereby, that the Realm of England was the Popes, and not the Kings. If all this be true, how can the Kings of England, in granting any thing to the Pope, be counted liberal? 
Mathias Parisien. in johann.  Verily it is an easy kind of liberality for a man to give that thing, that is not his own.  
But the Pope, ye say, setteth no more by all his revenues out of England, than an Elephante by a gnat: and that therefore, during the whole time of Queen Marie, he never demanded of us any manner of yearly payment. We must bear with your error herein, M. harding, for that ye never were the Pope's collector, and therefore not much acquainted with his Books. Otherwise ye might have remembered, that Cardinal Poole, being not the Pope, but only a Legate, or messenger from the Pope, had a thousand pounds paid him yearly of one Bishopric in England, towards the provision of his kitchen. Ye might have remembered, that all the Bishops of England, paid the Pope the whole first fruits of all their livings: which by any common estimation, amounted to more somewhat, than a Gnat. And although I were never, neither skilful, nor curious in the Pope's Collections, yet, as well for the discovery of so great untruth, as also for the better satisfaction of the Reader, I have thought it good, briefly, & by the way to touch, what may be found in old Records of good credit, touching the same.  
first therefore the archbishop of Canturburie paid unto the Pope for his Annates, or first fruits, at every vacation, ten thousand Florenes: besides other five thousand Florenes for the use, and right of his pall.  
The archbishop of York paid likewise for his first fruits ten thousand Florenes, and, as it is thought, other five thousand Florenes for his pall.  
The Bishop of Elie paid for his first Fruits seven thousand Florenes.  
The Bishop of London paid for his First Fruits three thousand Florenes.  
The Bishop of Wincester paid for his First Fruits xij. thousand Florenes.  
The Bishop of Exeter paid for his first Fruits six thousand Florenes.  
The Bishop of Lincoln paid for his first Fruits five thousand Florenes.  
The Bishop of Lichefielde, and Coventrie paid for his first Fruits three thousand Florenes.  
The Bishop of Herforde paid for his First Fruits one thousand, and eight hundred Florenes.  
The Bishop of Sarisburie paid for his First Fruits four thousand, and five hundred Florenes. And so the rest, each man accordingly after his rate.  
Here is to be noted, that a Florene is an Italian Crown, of the value of four shillings and six pennies sterling.  
Thus much I have noted only for example. By these few the discreet Reader may easily guess the Exactions, and payments of the other Bishops.  
The whole value of the Pope's first Fruits throughout Europe, 
Legatio Adriant Papae. 6. Excusae Wittenbergae, An. 1538.  as I find in one Record (although very unperfit, for that it lacketh sundry great, known, & notable bishoprics, as Durham, Carlisle, Worcester, Norwich, Bathe, Chichester, which, with many other more Archebishoprikes, & bishoprics, as well within the Dominions of our Kings of England, as also in sundry other Christian kingdoms, and Countries, are left unreckened) ariseth to the Sum of two thousand thousand, four hundred three score thousand, eight hundred forty and three Florenes.  
notwithstanding ye make your Pope as big, as an Elephante, yet, M. H. these reckeninges are over huge, in any reasonable proportion, to be resembled to a gnat. Here I leave out the yearly perquisites, that the Pope made of his Elections, Preventions, Dispensations, Pluralities, Trialities, Torquottes, Tolerations: for his Bulls, his S●ales, his Signatures: for eating Flesh, for Eggs, for White Meat, for priests Concubines, & for other like merchandise. I know not what. The sum whereof not withstanding amounteth to more than niene hundred thousand Florenes. As for your Smoke farthings, & Peter pense, I make no reckoning: by the vile, and contemptuous report whereof, ye show yourself, not only ignorant, & unskilful, in that ye writ, which argueth some folly, but also injurious unto your Country. Read Mathias Parisiensis, & ye shall find, both by what tyranny, and treachery, and also what masses, and intolerable sums of money the Pope's Ministers have carried out of this Realm.  
The Pope, 
Anno. 1215.  saith he, being diseased with a Spiritual dropsy, that is to say, with an unquenchable thirst of money, shook out all the priests purses, & spoilt the Abbeys of all their Treasures.  
Again, 
Anno. 1246.  The Pope made a Decree in Rome, that the goods, and moneys of all Bishops, and Priests decessed within England, should be taken to his use.  
The Pope gave strait commandment to the Bishops of England, 
Eodem Anno.  that all persons, and vicars being resident upon their Benefices, should pay yearly unto him the third part of all the values of their said benefices: And, that all parsons, and vicars, being not resident, should pay unto him yearly the one fusse half part of their benefices. All these paiementes to continue, during the space of three whole years. Which amounteth at the least to the sum of a hundred and three score & x. thousand pounds.  
The Bishops of England, 
Anno. 1247.  after great, and forcible entreaty, agreed together to give the Pope a Contribution of eleven thousand Marks.  
At that time the poor Prior of Wincester was forced to pay yearly three hundred, 
Anno eodem.  threescoare and five Marks towards the furniture of the Pope's Table.  
The Pope made a strait Decree, 
Eodem anno.  that all bishops Elect should immediately travail out of England to Rome, to attend upon his Holiness, as Mathias saith, Vt Romanorum loculos impregnaret, in ruinam Regni Angliae: To stuff the Romans purses, and to decay the Kingdom of England.  
The Pope had the tenths of all the Spiritual livings in England, 
Matthaeus Westmonasteriensis: Anno 1301. Anno. 1255.  during the space of ten whole years.  
Rustandus the Popes Legate exacted intolerable great payments of the clergy of England in a Synod holden in London, as Mathias saith, Per scripta Papae plena iniurijs, & iniquitate, quae possent patientissimum cor virulenter sauciare: All this he did by the authority of the Pope's Letters, full of injury, and iniquity: Which were able most cruelly to wound any heart, were it never so patient. The Bishops of London, & Worcester answered the Pope's Legate, that they would rather lose their lives, than they would give their consent to so open injury, and servitude, & intolerable oppression of the Church.  
The King had entered into an Obligation to pay unto the Pope two hundred thousand Marks, besides other fifty thousand pound sterling, For payment whereof, the Bishop of Herforde, being then the Pope's Agente, had bound the Bishops of England, before they were ware. Such like pretty gnats your Pope can strain, if Kings and Princes will give him leave.  
Ioh inns Sarisburiensis, 
johan. Sarisburien. Li. 6. Ca 24.  otherwise called Rupertus Carnotensis, in the familiar talk, that he had with Pope Adriane. 4. said thus unto him: Ipse Romanus Pontifex omnibus ferè est intolerabils: Lae●atur spolijs Ecclesiarum: quaestum omnem reputat pietatem: Provinciarum diripit spolia, acsi Thesauros Croesi studeat reparare: The Pope is now become untolerable almost to all the world: He rejoiceth in the spoil of Churches: All manner of gain he counteth Holiness: He maketh such havoc of kingdoms, and Provinces, 
Lib. 5. Cap. 16. Acsi mittaturab Inferis Tisiphone, vel Megèra. Anno. 1247. Anno. 1257.  as if he had intended to repair again croesus Treasury. Again, His Legates so rage, and ramp for money, as if the Infernal Furies were sent from Helle to go at liberty. What shall we need many words? Ambition, and Avarice have no bottom. Mathias Parisiensis saith, In Romana Curia omnia possunt pecuniae: Money may do all things in y● Court of Rome. And he calleth these unsatiable prollinges of the Pope, Quotidianas Extorsiones, Daily extortions. Again he saith, that the King of England, upon a very frivolous, & fond matter, made true payment unto Pope Alexander the fourth, 
Quod est horribile cogitatu. D. Bonner. in praefatione in Libel Stephani Gardineri de Vera Obedien. Anno. 1240.  of niene hundred, and fifty thousand Marks. Which thing, he saith, is horrible, and abominable to be thought of. To be short, that ye may the better view the bigness, & quantity of your Gnat, doctor Boner hereof writeth thus: The Pope's pray in England was so great, that it came to as much almost, as the Revenues of the Crown.  
Therefore Mathias saith, Imperator reprehendit Regem Angliae, quòd permitteret terram suam tam impudenter per Papam depauperari: The Emperor friendly reproved Henry the 3. King of England, for that he suffered the Kingdom so impudently to be compoverisshed by the Pope.  
Again he saith, King Henry the third made open complaint by this Ambassador in the Council of Lions in France, of the Pope's innumerable Exactions.  
Likewise he saith before, 
Anno. 1215.  Rex Henricus 3. repressit impetum Legati. propter violentiam Denariorum: The King stayed the attempts of the Pope's Legate touching his intolerable greediness in prollinge for money.  
ye see therefore, M. Harding, neither is this gnat so little, as by your scornful comparison, to the great dishonour of this Noble Realm, ye would seem to make it: nor is the grief, and complaint thereof so new, as ye bear us in hand. 
Wilihelmus Malmesburien Anno. 1031.  King Canutus, the King of England almost six hundred years ago, being at Rome, wrote home to the archbishops, and Bishops, and States of the Realm, on this wise: Conquestus sum item coram Domino Papa, & mihi valdè displicere dixi, quòd mei Archiepiscopi in tantum angariabatur immensitate pecuniarum, quae ab eis expetebatur, etc. Also I have made my complaint unto the Pope, and told him, that it match ●●sliketh me, that my archbishops should be vexed with such unreasonable sums of money required of them.  
Likewise Mathias Parisiensis writeth of King William the Conqueror, 
Anno. 1094.  Concipiens indignationem contra Papam, allegavit quòd nullus Archiepiscopus vel Episcopus de Regno suo, ad Curiam Romanam, vel ad Papam haberet respectum: King William, upon displeasure conceived against the Pope, said, that no archbishop, or Bishop of his Realm, should from thenceforth have regard either to the Court of Rome, or to the Pope.  
All this notwithstanding, ye say, the Pope is an Elephant: & all these Sums, in Comparison of his treasures, are but a gnat.  
Verily, all these, and other far greater reckeninges the Realm of England is well able to defray. Neither make we any account of the money, but of the deceitful extorting of the money: neither is it dishonourable to the Realm, to repress these lewd, & injurious mockeries, and to preserve the subject from open spoil. Other Kings, & Countries have oftentimes done the same. jews the French King. whom, 
Ludovicus. 9  for his Holiness, they have made a Saint, hereof complaineth thus, Exactiones impositas per Romanam Curiam, quibus Regnum nostrum miserabiliter depauperatum est, levari, aut colligi nullatenus volumus: These Exactions, or payments of money laid upon us by the Court of Rome, by mean whereof our Realm is miserably impoverished, we will not in any wise to be levied, or gathered. The gains, & pelferies, that the Phariseis made of the people, were not so great. Nevertheless Christ said unto them, 
Matth. 23.  Woe be unto you, ye Scribes and Phariseis, that raven up poor widows houses, under pretence of long praying.  
Rome, ye say, is the Mother Church of all the West: & therefore, I trow, we are bound to pay, what so ever payments she shall require. If we allow such simple reasons, then is the Pope likewise bound to pay to the Church of Jerusalem, what so ever paiementes she shall require. For Jerusalem is in deed the Mother Church, not only of the west, but also of all the whole world. How be it, it is a cruel Mother, that devoureth up her own Children. S. Paul saith, Non debent filii parentibus thesaurizare, 
2. Corin. 12. Lib. 6. Cap. 24.  sed parentes filijs: The Children ought not to lay up treasure for their parents, but the Parents for their Children. But johannes Sarisburiensis in his Polycraticon saith, Roma nunc non tam matrem exhibet, quàm novercam: Rome now showeth herself not so much a natural Mother, as a Stepmother: For she spoileth, and devoureth her Children.  
This Defender, ye say, in making his end so bad, hath plained the part of a foolish Poet. Here, M. harding, we have good cause to think, your Divinity is waxed cold, seeing you are thus driven to plead in Poetry. But may we believe, the Church of Rome is grown so Holy, that money is now become the vilest part of all her Play? Certainly, if your Pope once lose his money, all his Players will soon sit a cold. 
Felin. De Offic. et Potest. judicis delegati. Ex part. 1.  One of your own Doctors saith thus, cessant tali redditu, qui maximus est, attenta hodierna Tyrannide, Sedes Apostolica contemneretur: If this rent (of Simony) which is very great, were once staid, considering the Tyranny of Princes, that now is, the apostolic See of Rome would be despised. In which words thus much is also to be noted by the way, that what so ever Prince will not suffer the Pope to take what him listeth, must be taken, and judged, as a Tyrant. Therefore joannes Andreae, one of your greatest canonists, 
In sexto. De Elect. & Electi potest. Fundamenta. In Gloss.  saith thus, Roma fundata fuit à Praedonibus: & adhuc de primordijs retinet: dicta Roma, quasi rodens manus. unde versus, Roma manus rodit: quos rodere non valet, odit: The first foundation of Rome was laid by thieves: and hitherto she savoureth of her beginning: and is called Roma, quia rodit manus. Thereof cometh the common verse, Rome bireth you by the hands. And whom she cannot bite, them she hateth.  
The state of the Roman Popedom sprung first of money, and increased by money, and standeth now, neither by Truth of Doctrine, nor by severity of Discipline, nor by Prayer, nor by Holiness, nor by aught else, but only by money. Set money apart, and the Pope is equal with other Bishops. Codrus Vrceus saith, 
Codrus Vrceus. Sermon. 1.  Pontifex Maximus, si non Virtute, tamen Pecunia: The Pope is the greatest Bishop, although not in Virtue, yet at least in money. Therefore we may say of the Pope, 
Cicero ad Attic. Lib. 2.  as Diphilus sommetime said of Pompeius, Nostra miseria Magnus es. Baptista Mantuanus, speaking of the state of Rome, saith thus, 
Venalia nobis  
Templa, Secerdotes, Altaria, Sacra, Coronae,  
Ignis, Thura, Preces, Coelum est venale, Deus●ue:  Bmongeste us, in Rome, Churches, Priests, Altars, Masses, Crowns, Fire, Incense, Prayers, and Heaven are set to sale. Ye God himself amongst us may be had for money.  
Budaeus saith, 
Eudaeus in Pandectis.  Sanctiones Pontificiae non moribus regendis usui sunt: sed, propemodum dixerim, Argentariae faciendae Authoritatem videntur accommodare: The Pope's Canons serve not now, to guide men's lives, but, if I may so say, they serve rather to make a bank, and to get money.  
bernard of Clunice saith thus, Roma dat omnibus omnia dantibus: 
Bernardus Clun●acen. in Satyra  Omnia Romae Cum Pretio. Rome giveth all things to them, that give all things: All things at Rome will pass for money. 
In Sexto. De Elect. & Electi Potestat. Fundamenta. In Margin.  Even in the Pope's own Decretales ye shall find it noted thus, Roma est Caput avaritiae. Ideò omnia ibi venduntur: Rome is the Head of all Covetous treachery. And therefore all things there are set to sale.  
Yea Thomas Becket himself, whom a little before, ye called a Saint, when, for his wilful disobedience, and Treason committed against his Prince, he had for aid, and succour, fled to Rome, and saw, that nothing would be wrought there without money, 
In Epist. ad Archi●pis. Moguntinum.  thus he wrote he wrote thereof to the Bishop of Menze: Mater Roma facta est Meretrix, & prostituta est pro mercede: Rome our Mother is become an Harlot, and for money, and meed laiethe herself to sale. To be short, ye know, that our Fathers, long sithence, were wont to say, Curia Romana non captat Ouem sine lana: The Court of Rome will not take the Sheep without the flies.  
Therefore, M. harding, your Poet concluded in good order, and went not so far besides his Rules. For, money is both the First, and the Middle, and the last Act of all your Fable.  
Christ sommetime thrust such Buyers, 
Matth. 21.  Sellers, Brokers, & Scorsers out of the Temple: But contrariwise, ye have received in Buyers, and Sellers, & thrust out Christ: and so have turned the House of God into a Cave of thieves. S. Paul saith thus unto the people of Ephesus, 
Actor. 20.  Argentum, & Aurum nullius concupivi: I have desired noman's Gold, or Silver. Upon which words, in the Gloze it is noted thus, Per hoc Lupi cognoscuntur, qui talia concupiscunt: Hereby, they, 
1. qu. 1. Nunquam Divinatio.  that desire such things, are known for wolves. S. Jerome saith, Quia Prophetae pecuniam accipiebant, Prophetiae corum facta est Divinatio: For that the Prophets fell to taking of money, therefore their Propheste was become a Sooth saying: that is to same, it was of the Devil, and not of God.  
Thus, M. harding, to conclude, what so ever fault ye can find with the Defenders Poetry, Verily, by the judgement of your nearest friends, Money was the best paare of all your Fable.    

The Recapitulation of the Apology.  
THus thou seest, good Christian Reader, It is no new thing, though at this day the Religion of Christ be entertained with despites, and checks, being but lately restored, and, as it were, coming up again anew: for so much as the like hath chanced both to Christ himself, and to his Apostles: yet nevertheless, for fear thou mayst suffer thee self to be lead amiss, and to be seduced with those exclamations of our Adversaries, we have declared at large unto thee the very whole manner of our Religion, what our Faith is of God the Father, of his only Son jesus Christ, of the Holy Ghost, of the Church, of the Sacraments, of the ministery, of the Scriptures, of Ceremonies, and of every part of Christian Belief. We have said, that we abandon, and detest, as plagues, and poisons, all those old Heresies, which either the sacred Scriptures, or the ancient Councils have utterly condemned: that we call home again, asmuch as in us lieth, the right Discipline of the Church, which our Adversaries have quite brought into a poor and weak case: That we pounishe all licenceousnesse of life, and unruliness of manners, by the old, and long continued Laws, and with as much sharpness as is convenient, and lieth in our power: That we maintain still the state of kingdoms, in the same condition, and state of honour wherein we found them, without any diminishing, or alteration, reserving unto our Princes their Majesty, and worldly pre-eminence safe, and without empairinge, to our possible power: That we have so gotten ourselves away from that Church, which they had made a den of thieves, and wherein nothing was in good frame, or once like to the Church of God, and which by their own confessions had erred many ways, even as Lot in times past gate him out of Sodom, or Abraham out of Chaidee, not upon a desire of contention, but by the warning of God himself: And that we have searched out of the Holy Bible, which we are sure, cannot deceive, one sure form of Religion, & have returned again unto the Primitive Church of the ancient Fathers, and Apostles, that is to say, to the ground, and beginning of things, unto the very ●undations, and headspringes of Christ's Church.  
And in very truth we have not tarried in this matter for the Authority, or consent of the Tridentine Council, wherein we saw nothing done uprightly, nor by good order: where also every body was sworn to the maintenance of one man: where Princes Ambassadors were contemned: where not one of our Divines could be heard, and where parts taking, and Ambition was openly and earnestly procured and wrought: but as the Holy Fathers in former time, and as our Predecessors have commonly done, we have restored our Churches by a Provincial Convocation, and have clean shaken of, as our duty was, the yoke, and tyranny of the Bishop of Rome, to whom we were not bound: who also had no manner of thing like, neither to Christ, nor to Peter, nor to an Apostle, nor yet like to any Bishop at al. Finally, we say, that we agree amongst ourselves, touching the whole judgement, and chief substance of Christian Religion, and with one mouth, and with one spirit do worship God, and the Father of our Lord jesus Christ.  
Wherefore, O Christian and Godly Reader, for so much, as thou seest the Reasons, and Causes, both why we have restored Religion, and why we have forsaken these men, thou oughtest not to marvel, though we have chosen to obey our Master Christ, rather than men. S. Paul hath given us warning, that we should not suffer ourselves to be carried away with such sundry learnings, and to flee their companies, specially such as would sow debate and variance, clean contrary to the Doctrine, which they had received of Christ, and the Apostles.  
Long sithence have these men's crafts, and treacheries decayed, and vanished, and fled away at the sight, and light of the Gospel, even as the owl doth at the son rising. And albeit their trumpery be built up, and reared as high as the Sky, yet even in a moment, and as it were of itself, falleth it down again to the ground, and cometh to nought.  
For you must not think, that all these things have come to pass by chance, or at adventure: It hath been God's pleasure, that, against all men's wills well nigh, the Gospel of jesus Christ should be spread abroad throughout the whole world at these days. And therefore men following God's commandment, have of their own free will resorted unto the Doctrine of jesus Christ.  
And, for our parts, truly we have sought hereby, neither glory, nor wealth, nor pleasure, nor ease. For there is plenty of all these things with our Adversaries.  
And, when we were of their side, we enjoyed such worldly commodities much more liberally, and bountifully, than we do now.  
Neither do we esche we Concord, and Peace. But, to have peace with man, we will not be at war with God. The name of Peace is a sweet, and pleasant thing, saith Hilarius: But yet beware, saith he, Peace is one thing, and bondage is an other. For, if it should so be, as they seek to have it, that Christ should be commanded to keep silence, that the Truth of the Gospel should be betrayed, that horrible errors should be cloaked, that Christian men's eyes should be bleared, and that they might be suffered to conspire openly against God: this were not a Peace, but a most ungodly covenant of servitude. There is a Peace, saith Nazianzene, that is unprofitable: again, there is a Discord, saith he, that is profitable. For we must conditionally desire Peace, so far, as is lawful before God, 
Matth. 10.  and so far, as we may conveniently. For otherwise, Christ himself brought not Peace into the world, but a sword. Wherefore if the Pope will have us reconciled to him, his duty is first to be reconciled to God: For from thence, saith Cyprian, springe Schisms and Sects, because men seek not the Head, and have not their recourse to the Fountain (of the Scriptures) and keep not the Rules given by the Heavenly Teacher: For, saith he, that is not Peace, but war: neither is he joined unto the Church, which is severed from the Gospel. As for these men, they use to make a marchendise of the name of Peace. For that Peace, which they so ●aine would have, is only a rest of idle bellies. They, & we might easily be brought to atonement, touching all these matters, were it not that Ambition. Gluttony, and excess doth let it. Hence cometh their whyninge: their heart is on their Halfpenny. Out of doubt, their clamours, and stirs be to none other end, but to maintain more shamefully, and naughtily il gotten goods.  
Now a days the Pardoners complain of us, the Dataries, the Pope's Collectors, 
1. Tim. 6.  the Bawds, & others which think gain to be godliness, and serve not jesus Christ, but their own bellies. Many a day ago, and in the old world, a wonderful great advantage grew hereby to these kind of people. But now they reckon all is lost unto them, that Christ gaineth. The Pope himself maketh a great complaint at this present, that Charity in people is waxed cold. And why so, trow ye. Forsooth because his profits decay more, and more. And for this cause doth he hale us into hatred, all that ever he may, laieinge load upon us with despiteful railings, & condemning us for Heretics, to the end, they, that understand not the metre, may think there be no worse men upon earth, than we be. Notwithstanding, we in the mean season are never the more ashamed for all this: neither ought we to be ashamed of the Gospel: For we set more by the Glory of God, than we do by the estimation of men. We are sure, all is true, that we teach, and we may not either go against our own conscience, or bear any witness against God For if we deny any part of the Gospel of jesus Christ before men, he on the other side will deny us before his Father. And if there be any, that will still be offended, and cannot endure Christ's Doctrine, such, say we, be blind, and Leaders of the blind: the Truth nevertheless must be preached, and preferred above all: and we must with patience wait for God's judgement.  
Let these folk in the mean time take good heed, what they do, and let them be well advised of their own Salvation, and cease to hate, and persecute the Gospel of the Son of God, for fear lest they feel him once a redresser, and revenger of his own cause. God will not suffer himself to be made a mocking stock. The world espieth a good while ago, what there is adooinge abroad. This flame, the more it is kept down, so much the more with greater force, and strength doth it break out, and fly abroad. The unfaithfulness shall not disapointe Gods faithful promiss. And, if they shall refuse, to lay away this their hardness of heart, and to receive the Gospel of Christ, then shall Publicans, and sinners go before them into the Kingdom of Heaven.  
God, and the Father of our Lord jesus Christ, open the eyes of them all, that they may be able to see that blessed hope, whereunto they have been called: so as we may altogether in one, glorify him alone, who is the true God, and also that same jesus Christ, whom he sent down to us from Heaven: unto whom with the Father, and the Holy Ghost, be geeven all Honour, and Glory Everlastingly. So be it.   
FINIS.   

To Master harding.  
IT appeareth, M. harding, by that ye have lately sent us over, and specially by the unpleasant verdure of your speech, that my late Reply hath somewhat disordered your quiet mind. Which thing notwithstanding I might easily have gheassed, was not unlikely to come to pass, specially being before not utterly unskilful of your affections, Yet, as I never sought to write any thing, that of purpose, and justly might offend you (the right of the cause, and the Defence of the Truth evermore foreprised) even so am I now right soary, to see you so unable to master your passions, and so unadvisedly to make them open unto so many. If it grieve you in respect of your credit, for that I have thus discovered your errors, that was your fault: it was not mine. If ye had not made your errors known, they should never, of my part, have been discovered. If you knew, how soary I am in your behalf, ye would not so impatientely be offended.  
It misliketh you, that I have alleged so many Doctors, and Councils, and, as you say, have so ambitiously painted my Margin with so many Authorities, both Greek, and Latin. Yet you, for your part, have not spared, over and besides these two tongues, to paint your Margin, for a surcharge, with words in Hebrew: besides other such ranks of your English Scholies, so many, so thick, and so close together, that it were a hard matter, to force in one word of Truth to stand amongst them. It is no courteous dealing, M. harding, to reprove that in others, that you so commonly do yourself.  
If the Number of Doctors have offended you, I do not marvel: A cowardly Challenger would always wish the Defendente to come unarmed unto the fight. If I had alleged, either no Doctors at all, or nothing to purpose, as your wont commonly is to do, ye would have borne it a great deal better. How be it, my Authorities of Doctors, and Councils, be they never so many, yet, as you have used them, are few enough. For of the whole number, by your good skill, more than three parts are left untouched. And in deed this was the wiseste way. Children, where they cannot read, think it best, to skip over.  
Whereas I examine, and lay abroad all the parts, and branches of your Arguments, and show, how directly ye grow to your Conclusions, that your Reader may see, by what weapons ye seek to master him, this you say is a kind of scoffing. Ye tell me, I rack, and alter, and abuse your Arguments, and play with shadows of mine own. But, M. harding, if ye will have your Arguments to pass smoothly without controlment, then learn henceforth to make them better. Ye are over tender, if ye look to speak, what ye list, and yet to hear nothing, but to your liking: and, to send abroad such simple wares, to serve the people, and yet may suffer noman to tell you of it. Verily, where ye say, I have of purpose Changed your Arguments, if ye make them otherwise, than I have made them, having always an eye unto your Conclusion, ye shallbe forced to make them worse. touching the Scoffs, wherewith ye find yourself so much aggrieved, doubtless, who so had that grace, that is in you, as may well appear throughout all your Books, might soon deserve to be called a scoffer.  
Where ye say, you, and your Fellows have espied a thousand fowl great Lies in my writings: had not one of you been a great Father of Lies, ye could never have hit so readily upon the number. Such an Auditoure, I trow, 
Laurent. Surius Carthusian. In praefatione in Nauclerum.  was he, that found us out eleven thousand Lies in Sleidans' story. The very multitude hereof, and the hugeness of the heap, as it be wraieth well your stomach, so in any indifferent judgement, it decayeth the credit of your reckoning. A man may reasonably think, it is as possible, to find two hundred, and fifty Untruths in your Book, as in mine to find a thousand. Verily, as I never minded to defend any thing, what so ever, that in any my writings, shallbe found amiss, so I see, by the view of your accounts, it were no hard matter, with your eyes, to find Untruths in the Gospel. For what so ever I say, be it never so true, yet, if it like not your taste, it is a Lie: Whatsoever I allege, or translate, it is corrupted. So evil is my luck: I can touch nothing, but it is either too much, or too little: or too short, or too long: or too black, or too white: or one way, or other it standeth awry. 
M. harding, Rejoinder: Fol. 203. b.  If I translate, Nonnulli Sacerdotes, Sundry Priests, ye cry out, A corrupter, a falsary. I should have said, Certain Priests, or, Some Priests: but I should not in any wise have said, Sundry.  
If I translate, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, unà nutritos, Fed together, ye tell the world, It is falsehood, it is fowl corruption. Thus, ye say, I should have translated it, 
M. harding, Rejoinder: Fol. 115. b.  Eodem cibo alitos, Fed with one kind of meat: as if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greek, were not unà in Latin, or had not Relation to the Place. Deal herein with your friends, M. harding, as you may: The Greek Reader will allow you no such Translations. If I happen to say, M. Hard, saith, The thing, that we receive in the Sacrament, is no Bread, 
M. Hard. rejoined. fol. 163. b.  Ye cry, Alarma: Look, ye say, in my Book, Reader: M. jewel is an untrue man: Here he is taken with a lie: Mark well: I say, It is not Bread: I say not, It is No Bread. Not Bread, ye say. No Bread, ye say not: As if there were so many miles distance between No and Nor.  
These, and such like, be the shameful Untruths, and horrible Lies, that you, and your Fellows with great seeking, and diligence have espied. And thus, if a man happen to use Ensis, for Gladius, or Nam, for Enim, or Que, for Et, ye think it cause sufficient to make a Tragedy. How be it I doubt not, but in my Reply, being so long, and so full of necessary allegations, ye may happen to find some over sights of greater importance. And in acknowledging, and reforming of the same, ye shall find me as sharp, and eager, as yourself. But these few examples I have touched by the way, that it might appear, how inquisitive, and fierce ye are, to seek occasions: and that your Reader may see, ye hunt wanton, and run riot, and open oftentimes without a cause. Yet notwithstanding, if ye can tell us sadly, as your manner is; that M. jewel bringeth trifling objections, and trash, and pelf, and nothing to purpose, without learning, without reason, without wit: that he racketh, that he stretcheth, that he wringeth, that he wresteth, that he nippeth, and clippeth the Doctors, and Councils: (for these be the words, whereby ye thought, ye might best utter your preaty fancies): If ye can cry out, False parts, False reports, False dealings, False Merchants, False Balance, False Dise, and all is False: If ye can say, Lo, Sir Defender, ye wrangle, ye trifle, ye are taken tardee, ye have proved nothing, ye have nothing to answer: If ye can thus say, and say it boldly, it shallbe sufficient: all is safe: your friends will think, ye have said somewhat, and that ye would never have framed such a countenance, to say nothing.  
Ye tell us full often, we are no Bishops: I trow, for that we have not sworn our obedience to the Pope. And therefore ye give the world to understand, we can consecrate no Ministers, we can hold no Synods, we can do nothing. Even so certain your Forefathers in Old times told S. Paul, 
2. Corinth. 9  He was no Apostle: and others afterward by like authority told S. Basile, and S. Hilary, they were no Bishops. But, M. harding, they were False Apostles, they were Arian Heretics, that so told them. It booteth not, to try our titles before you. We will only say with S. Paul: 
1. Corinth 15.  By the Grace of God we are, that we are. And, we trust, we have not his Grace in vain.  
But specially, and above all other things, and that throughout all your three Books, ye say, that Sir Defender is unlearned: that his best skill is in a few Figures of Rhetoric: that he hath neither Greek, nor Logic, nor Philosophy, nor Divinity: that he hath read no kind of Doctors, nor New, nor Old, nor of his own, nor of others: that all the furniture of his Book was brought to his hand, some by Greek Readers, some by Schoolmasters, 
M. Hard. Confuta. 21●. a Et 259. a. and commonly in other places.  some by civilians, some by canonists, some by summists, some by Glosers, some by others: that he hath nothing else but patched notebooks, huddled together by snaps, and pieces. Some part hereof, or rather the whole all together, without exception, to do you pleasure, I would easily have granted you, M. harding, upon small suit, with more favour, and less ado. Take from me, what learning ye list: distrain it, and pound it at your pleasure: I will never trouble you with Replevin. How be it, if ye utter all this of your indifferent judgement, and certain knowledge, yet is it impertinente: for we pleaded of Faith, and not of Learning: if otherwise ye speak it of heat of mind, and abundance of Cholere, and thereupon thus proclaim it unto the world, it is great folly. Truly ye never saw Sir Defenders Books, nor never set your foot within his study. A wise judge will seldom pronounce, before he know. If it shall please you, for trial hereof, to send your friend, he may happily see, that Sir Defender hath all these Summistes, and canonists, and Greekereaders, and Schoolmasters, of his own.  
Notwithstanding, it may become us both to say, as a Heathen wiseman sommetime said, 
Socrates.  This only thing we know, that we know nothing. God's Truth dependeth not of our knowledge. Our Tongues shall cease, and our knowledge shall fail: But the Glory of God shall stand for ever. For my part, I will say to you with S. Augustine, Quaere doctiores: sed cave praesumptores: Seek others of more Learning: but beware of them, that praesume of Learning. If any praise fall out in this respect, bestow it freely upon your Greekereaders, and Schoolmasters, who, in your judgement, have best deserved it. It shallbe sufficient for me, to have said the Truth: which, though it appear never so simple, is able to remove a Mountain of Learning. But happy are your Brethren of Louvain, that are so speedily grown Learned upon the sudden, not by great study, I trow, but rather by destinee. As soon as they had once savoured the soil of that country, they looked only upon two poor Titles of the Law, 
Extra. Li. 5.  De Maledicis, and De Clerico promoto per saltum: and suddenly they were transformed, and now go for Doctors.  
As for your Learning, M. harding, we never reproved it. How be it, greatly to fear it, we have no cause. God give you Grace, ye may wholly turn it to his glory: lest in the day of the Lord it be laid against you. He is over well learned, that bendeth his Learning against God.  
But, if we be so utterly void of all manner of Learning, painting, as you say, our Books, and Margins with the Names, and Authorities of so many Doctors, what may your friends than think of you, that standing so long in the Defence of your Private Mass, are not yet able to allege one doctor, nor Greek, nor Latin, nor one, nor other? It seemeth great marvel, ye should have such abundance of Doctors, and show so few, specially where it standeth you so much upon, to open your store. Consider, I beseech you, your late Rejoinder: wherein, as it is thought, nothing of your part is left untouched. Of the Seven and twenty Articles contained in my Reply, ye have taken upon you only to answer One. And yet of the same One, ye have scarcely touched the tenth part. Your purpose should have been therein, by evident Examples, and good Authorities, substantially to have proved your Private Mass.  
Now consider the order, and plainness of your dealing. Ye bestow well-near the third part of your Book about the Sacrifice: as though there were no Sacrifice without Private Mass. All the rest ye consume in idle discourses, and needless talks, of Consecration, of the Intention of the Priest, of mingling the water with the wine, of the Name of the Mass, of Transubstantiation, of Real Presence, of Church Feasts, (which in old time were called Agapae), of Singular Communion, of Communion of Faith, of our Union with Christ, of sending abroad the Sacrament, of priests wives, of Vows, of Bigamy, of Good works, of Only Faith, of Public Prayer in a tongue unknown, of Ceremonies, of forms, of Accidents, of the Epistles Decretal, of Clemens, Cletus, Anacletus, Abdias, Leontius, etc. Hereof ye have told us such things, as perhaps we knew before, and were not hard to be known, and pertained full little to the purpose. Ye should rather have proved, that within the first six hundred years after Christ, some one, or other of the Holy Learned Catholic Fathers Ministered the Holy Communion openly in the Church, and received the Sacrament Alone not dividing the same to any other, the whole multitude of the people sitting, or standing by, and looking on him. This was the matter, that lay between us: Hereunto ye should have laid your force: This was it, ye should have proved. For proof of such things, as needed no proof, ye have brought forth great shows of Learning. But as touching your Private Mass, which only ye had taken in hand to prove, ye have hitherto proved nothing. Your Reader, M. harding, can never be, neither so simple, nor so partial, but he must needs have an eye unto your issue, and remember, what ye had in hand. If amongst so many, and so Learned words, he find not one word of that he sought for, may he not think, he hath lost his labour, and that there is some folly in your farthel? May he not say within himself, Quò nunc se proripit iste? What shall I make of these vagaries? what meaneth this man, to shoot so fair beside the mark? He must needs perceive by your silence, that, notwithstanding your so many fair, and liberal promises, yet the thing, he sought for, cannot be found. Nay, you yourself, for excuse hereof, by express words have told us plainly, 
M. Hard. rejoined. fol. 281. a. Et fol. 88 a.  It might be, that none received the Sacrament with the Priest: And again, Whether the Priest had always a company, 
M. Hard. in his Rejoinder, in the Preface to the Reader. &. In the same Preface. & ij. M. harding, Rejoinder: Fol. 210. a.  to receive with him, or sometimes received alone, that is a circumstance of a fact: the proof whereof by manifest Testimonies, cannot with reason be demanded. Again, It is contentious, to put us to proof of the Circumstance. Again, It forceth not, whether we bring forth Testimonies of the six hundred years, or no. Again, Whether I can show, that a Mass was said without company present to receive with the Priest, that said it, or no, what skilleth it? Again, I must tell you, that I seek not for Private Mass, 
Rejoinder. 219. a.  which to find, your scoffing pretendeth me to be desirous. I seek not for that, which I acknowledge not. And again, It forceth not greatly, whether it may be proved, or no: Which is as much, as if ye had told us in plainer wise, that for the space of six hundred years after Christ, ye can hear no tidings in any doctor, or Council, of your Private Mass. Which thing, thus of your part confessed, to our purpose is sufficient.  
Now, touching the Authority of your Amphilochius, not long sithence, ye thought his force had been invincible. And therefore ye stood up aloft, 
M. harding in his Answer, Fol. 29. a.  and brayed aloud, Now M jewel, and his Consacramentaries do stagger, I doubt not. And for that cause, as if it had been some great worthy author, ye alleged him seven times, with special reverence, in one Book. 
Rojoinder. fol. 267. b.  And yet now at the last, ye are content, for shame, to turn him over, and to let him go. Perhaps ye thought, for the while, a weak thread was sufficient to lead the people: and that, as folks use sometimes to please children, ye might quench their thirst with an empty cup. Thus much hitherto, touching some parts of your Rejoinder.  
Concerning your Former Book, which ye have entitled, a Confutation, I need to say nothing. By the judgement of the wise, it saith sufficiently of itself. But what meant you, M. harding, therein to make so large discourse, I will not say, in the Defence, (for that word your friends may not bear) but at the least in the favour of Open stews: and to call the same, 
M. Hard. Confu. fol. 162. b.  Malum necessarium, that is to say, although an ill thing, yet such a thing, as no good Common weal may be without it? What meant you, to that purpose, to show us the name, and Authority of S. Augustine: and thus to upbraid us in the end, 
Confu. fol. 162. a  In good sooth, Masters, ye are too young, to controlle the City of Rome in her doings? What needed you to bestow so fine eloquence in so fowl a cause? 
M. Hard. Confu. fol. 163. a.  Is vice grown so cold in Louvain, that it must be inflamed, and authorized by open Writing? What meant you to allege the Prophet David, the evangelist S. Matthew, 
Confut. 251. a. & deinceps.  and S. Paul the Apostle for proof of your pardons? Will ye tell us, that David, Matthew, and Paul were Pardoners? Or, if ye dare to tell us so, must we believe it? If ye so manifestly mock us with open follies, how may we trust you in higher Mysteries? 
2. Corin. 4.  S. Paul saith, Though our outward man be corrupted, yet our inward man is renewed day by day. Here ye tell us, in great sooth, 
M. Hard. Confut. fol. 117. a. Luke. 22. M. Hard Confut. fol. 192. b.  that these words undoubtedly serve to prove Purgatory.  
Christ saith unto Peter, I have prayed for thee etc. Therefore, ye say, Christ now requireth us, not to be obedient to Peter, or Paul, but to the Pope, that sitteth in their Chair. Christ saith, 
M. Hard. Confu. Fol. 99 a.  The Son of Man came, not to destroy, but to save: Ergo, say you, The Bread, and Wine in the Sacrament lose no part of their former virtues: but remain in forms, and Accidents, even as they were before: as if the Son of God had come down from Heaven to save Accidents.  
Thus ye nip of the sense, and meaning of the Holy Scriptures, and feed us only with empty words: as if ye would pike away the corn, and give us the chaff: or convey away the jewels, and throw us the bag. O M. harding, be not wilful: let your own conscience lead you. Was this the meaning of S. Paul? was this the coming of Christ into the world? was this the sense of the Holy Ghost? I will not say, what Old Doctor, or ancient Father, but, what Summiste, what canonist, what Child, what Heretic, ever either so undiscreetly, or so unreverently used the Word of God?  
I leave the misconstrueinge, and falsifying of so many Fathers: the allowing, and soothing of manifest Forgeries: the upholding of Abuses, and open Errors: your weak Proofs: your silly Conjectures: your simple Gheasses: your great Oversights: your bold Affirmations: your heaps of Untruths: your disdeigneful Scorns: your immoderate Scoffs: your ungentile, and uncivil words, as for example, Villains, thieves, Fools, Disardes, Lourdaines etc. I leave other your unmannerly, and uncleanly speeches: 
Confuta. 318. b.  Hungry Dogs eat dirty puddings: As common as life with beggars: 
Confuta. 250. b.  They serve the belly, and the things beneath the belly.  
Was this a present, M. harding, meet either for the Modesty of a Virgin, or for the Majesty of a Prince: specially such a Virgin, and such a Prince, so Chaste, so Grave, so Learned, so Wise, so Virtuous, so Godly, as Christendom seldom hath seen the like? What? thought you, that either her wisdom could not espy your frauds, and mockeries: or, that her chaste ears could quietly bear your loathsome talk? Or, thought you by the weight of such reasons, to move Mountains, and to work wonders, and to force her Majesty to leave christ and his Gospel, and come to Louvain to follow you?  
Ye threape her Majesty fondly with kindness, and, as ye would have the world imagine, with good liking, and favouring of your side: as if her Majesty, having been brought up from her cradle in the knowledge and fear of God, and through God's great Mercy, and according to his known Will, by the good advise, and counsel of the states of her Realm, having reformed the House of God from the filth, and soil of your devices, she stood now in a mammering, and were not able to discern, either Falsehedde from Truth, or Darkness from Light: or, as if your Errors were not so gross, that a blind man may grope them with his Fingers.  
Ye tell her Majesty, she hath neither parliament, nor Law, nor Church, 
Confut. fol. 42. a. and so throughout the whole Book.  nor clergy: The Church of England ye commonly call the Tower of Babylon, the synagogue of antichrist, and the School of Satan: ye charge her Majesty with disordered proceedings, with maintenance of Infidelity, 
Confut. fol. 5. a. 15. a. 38. a. 49. a. and so through the whole.  of Sacrilege, of Schism, of Heresy: For your possible power, ye dishonour her Majesty, both abroad, and at home: where ye may get credit to your follies, ye slander the government: ye disquiet her majesties loving Subjects: ye breed Seditions: ye procure Rebellions: ye hazard her estate. And yet dare ye to powder all this poison with a few dissembled, and sugared words, and to offer the same unto her Majesty for a present? Well, M. harding, if ye had foreseen the thanks, that her Majesty most justly yielded you for your travails, ye would not have been so bold, so rudely to press into her presence. It behoved you, to be advised, not only, what ye wrote, but also what parsonage should view your writings.  
If ye shall happen to write hereafter, send us fewer words, and more Learning. If ye shall devise to talk any more of your Private Mass, leave your vagaries, and go directly to the purpose. Tell us no more such long tales, either of the Sacrifice, or of other matters so far from the question. It is no good Logic, to shift of the thing, ye have in hand, and to mock your poor Reader with an other. Tread not so nicely, and so gingerly, M. harding. Say not, your Mass is a Circumstance, and a matter of Fact, 
Rejoinder. 232. b 233. a.  and standeth only upon supposalles, and gheasses, and therefore needeth no further proof. Why sold ye so trifle with the simple? This is the Issue, that falleth out between us: Whether any one of all the ancient Learned Fathers etc. ever said your Private Mass etc. This is it, that is denied. If ye prove not this, what so ever ye prove, ye prove nothing. Bring out some Learned Father: show some Catholic doctor: keep them no longer forth coming. The world looketh ye should deal plainly.  
Deny no more the manifest Truth: avouch no more the open Falsehedde: Let there be some probability, and likelihood in your sayings. Leave your immoderate, and uncourteous talks. They are tokens of stomach, and not of Learning. Therein ye have deserved the honour above all others. In such kind of Eloquence noman can match you, but yourself. A good cause might have been pleaded with better words. The more untemperate, and fiery ye show yourself without cause, the more in the end will appear your folly. If ye have hitherto taken any pleasure in speaking ill, at my hand, by hearing ill, ye shall not lose it. If ye bring us more Fables of your pardons, and Purgatories: If ye feed us, as ye have done, with Untruths: If ye deprave the Scriptures: If ye falsify the Doctoures: If ye Conclude without Premises: If ye place your Antecedente at Rome, and your consequent at Louvain: If ye stuff so much paper, and blot so many leaves, and show us nothing: briefly, if ye writ none otherwise, than ye have done hitherto, no wise man wilgreately fear your force.  
Deceive not the simple. They are bought with price: They are the people of God, for whom Christ hath sheadde his Blood. Your shifts be miserable. Ye trouble yourself, as a bird the lime. The more ye stir, the faster ye cleave: the longer ye strive, the weaker ye are. Ye cannot bridle the flowing Seas: ye cannot blind the Sonnebeames Kick not still against the spur: give place unto the Glory of God. Will ye, nil ye, the Truth will conquer. God give us both humble hearts, and the people eyes to see: that all flesh may be obedient to his wil Amen.  
From London. 27. Octobris. 1567. john Sarisburie.   

¶ A Table of the principal matters Contained in this Book.  

A  
Absolution of mad men. 139.  
Absolution standeth not in the will of the Priest. 139.  
The Abomination of desolation. 446.  
Abuses in the mass, confessed by Pigghius. 456.  
reforming of Abuses. 133.  
Accidents without subject. 253.  
Adoration of the Sacrament. 269.  
We need no Advocates unto God. 316.  
Agreement in Religion. 194.  
Altars, or Communion Tables. 333.  
S. Ambrose refused the emperors judgement in Ecclesiastical causes. 689.  
Ambition in the Clergy, the cause of great evil. 409.  
Anacletus fondly misconstrued by M. harding. 226. 227.  
antichrist. 446.  
antichrist in the Church of God. 447. 448.  
antichrist shall counterfeit Chastity. 482.  
antichrist in the Temple of God, and what antichrist shallbe. 434.  
Antonius' learned in the Scriptures. 195.  
Weemen dissembling themselves in men's Apparel. 376.  
Choice of Apparel for Religion's sake 346. 347.  
No difference in Apparel. 346. 347 348.  
Superstitious holiness in Apparel. 344 345.  
Ecclesiastical bravery in Apparel. 641.  
The Apostles equal with Peter. 106, 107, 108.  
The Apostles above Kings and Princes. 397.  
The Apology authorized. 17.  
Athenes standing. 376▪ 377.  
S. Augustine's judgement refused. ●98.  
Augustine the Italian Monk. 11.  
Augustine the Italiam Monk, alive at the time of the war. 493.  
Augustine the Italian Monk inflamer of the war. ibidem.  
Augustine the Italian monk, Bishop in England. 492.  
The authority of the Doctors, and Fathers. 18. 19  
Pretence of Antiquity. 495. 496.   

B.  
Bacon. 454.  
Baptism. 203.  
Baptism of Infants. 150.  
By Biptisme we are united unto Christ. 241.  
We are partakers of Christ's Body and Blood in the Sacrament of Baptism. 271.  
Christ is he that baptizeth. 215.  
The Power of Baptism. 217.  
Baptism is the Power of Resurrection. 221.  
Baptism received without Faith. 216.  
Believe them not, spoken of Antichrist and his followers. 208.  
To Believe in God. 84.  
The recantation of Berengarius. 348.  
The Bernates lawful war against the Duke of Savoy. 389.  
Binding standeth in wilful refusing of the Word of God. 142.  
Bishops called and convented before the Prince. 637. 638. 639.  
A Bishop may not put away his wise under pretence of holiness. 185.  
Bishops sworn unto the Pope: and the form of the Oath expressed. 43.  
Difference between Bishop and Priest. 198.  
Bishops within the Prince's check. 398.  
A Bishop bearing civil office. 512.  
bishops proud, and disdeigneful in old times. 409.  
Bishops, no Bishops. 117.  
The substance of Bread remaineth in the Sacrament. 231.  
The Bread is the body of Christ, in what sense. 246. 255. 257. 479. 480.  
The Bread of the Sacrament passeth by natural digestion, by the judgement of Origen. 258. 261.  
The Bread remaineth in substance as it was before. 247. 248. 249. 251. 252. 257.  
The Bread changed, in what sense. 247 248. 249.  
The Bread not annihilate. 248.  
The Bread hath a certain likeness of Christ's Body. 254.  
The building and repairing of God's Church. 716.  
Burning of the Scriptures. 477.   

C.  
Calixtus, for Anacletus. 226.  
The Calendar of Bishop's names. 374. 375.  
Carnal liberty. 335. 336.  
Cathechumeni, or Beginners in the Fa●the. 139.  
Catholic, in many, or in few. 93  
Catholic Church, and what is meant thereby. 49.  
Ceremonies. 308.  
S. Augustine found fault with the multitude of Ceremonies. 308. 309.  
Ceremonies more esteemed than the commandments of God. 308. 310.  
Vain Ceremonies ought to be removed with all speed convenient. 309.  
Ceremonies have power to quiet the conscience, and to remit sin 554.  
Diversity of Ceremonies. 309.  
vow of Chastity, and lawful to break the same. 168. 169. 170.  
Counterfeit Chastity a mark of antichrist. 183.  
Chastity the gift of God, & may not be commanded by any man. 167.  
No one Chief but Christ. 340.  
Christ's humanity in one place. 85 87 88 89.  
Christ and the Pope have one place of judgement. 95.  
Christ's Body never promised to our bodily mouth. 274.  
To touch or to hold Christ. 288  
Christ the only Pope. 106.  
Christ's Blood not in the holy Cups. 265.  
Christ's Body in one place. 276. 277.  
Christians hated, & slandered. 49.  
To approach unto Christ. 288.  
To receive or bear Christ. 285. 286.  
The spiritual receiving of Christ's Body. 348.  
Christ's Body crushed & torn with teeth. 349.  
Christ's Body giveth life. 241.  
Christ's Body in Heaven. 233.  
Christ's Body verily present in the holy supper, in what sense. 271. 273. 276.  
The Christians in Graeciae and Asia abhor the Pope and his clergy. 457.  
The Church of Rome is departed from the primitive Church of God. 566.  
The deformities of the Church of Rome. 568.  
The Church in few. 571.  
The Church known by God's word. 3.  
The Church of Rome can never err, true or false. 430. 436. 437. 439. 440. 444. 445.  
Reading of Chapters in the Church. 552. 553.  
The Church is above the word of God. 557. 558. 559. 560.  
The Church of Rome can not fail. 565.  
The miserable state of the Church of Rome. 462. 463.  
The Pope is the whole Church. 558.  
The Church known by the word of God. 463. 464. 465.  
The state of the Church decayed in the time of the old Fathers. 442.  
The Authority of the Churches in Africa, as good as the authority of the Church of Rome. 440.  
The Church may err. 445.  
The Church, if it depend of one man, shall soon decay. 448. 450.  
The Church in few or many. 441. 442. 443.  
No Idolatry in the Church of Rome. 628. 629.  
The Church may be in a few. 93. 94.  
To believe in the Church: to believe in Saints. 85.  
The Pope not the head of the Church. 95.  
The Roman Church compared with the Churches of the Gospel. 585.  
The State and Unity of the Church, dependeth of the Pope. 53.  
The Doctrine of the Church of Rome, is the express word of God. 200.  
The Roman Church received the faith from the Greeks. 577.  
Every Bishop, the head of his several Church. 95.  
Vain Titles of the Church of Rome. 40.  
The authority of the Church. 55.  
Hear the Church. ibidem.  
No Salvation without the Church of Rome. 36.  
The Church known by God's word. 55.  
The Roman Church unlike the Church of the ancient Fathers. 21.  
The Church of Rome fallen from God. 36.  
The Church of Rome is the Catholic Church. 36.  
The Church built upon john, aswell as upon Peter. 107.  
The Church invisible. 391.  
The Greeks abhor the Church of Rome. 36.  
The Civil Magistrate to be obeyed. 394.  
The errors and abuses of the clergy. 96. 104.  
The Communion in one Kind, used first by Heretics. 230.  
Causes of the Communion under one kind. 328. 329.  
priests Concubines. 511.  
A Priest keeping a Concubine, may not therefore be refused in his ministration. 511.  
Concupiscence is verily sin. 217. 218.  
Confession not commanded. 155. 156.  
Confession auricular never named of the Ancient Fathers. 257.  
Confession of sins venial. 151.  
Confession of sins appointed, not by God's Word, but by Tradition. 133.  
sins forgiven without Confession. 143.  
Confession of sins, not necessary. 133. 143 151.  
Confession made by handwriting or by a broker. 137.  
Confession to be made only unto God. 140.  
Confirmation of Bishops. 129.  
Confession made unto a lay man 137.  
Consecration, and divers judgements of the same. 208. 209.  
Consecration of Bishops. 130.  
The donation of Constantine. 401. 537. 538.  
Constantine was Christened by Sylvester: A fable. 670.  
Constantine the Emperor in the Council of Nice. 677. 678. 679. 680.  
The Emperor Constantine stood upright at the Sermon, and would not sit. 678.  
Courteghians remaining still in Rome. 382.  
Councils lawfully called without the Pope's consent. 529.  
Decrees of Councils ratified, whether the Pope would or no. 53.  
The Authority of Councils. 50  
Priests, Ministers, and Deacons in Councils. 603.  
The credit of Councils. 593.  
The Holy Ghost in Counsels. 606  
No good end of any Counsels. 599  
The Pope not alway precedent in Councils. 57  
The Authority of Councils & Fathers. 57  
Liberty of voice, and disputation denied in the Council of Trent. 43. 44.  
The Truth of judgement was in that Council that pronounced sentence against Christ. 622  
The Authority of Councils. 19  
Authority to call Councils. 529  
Confirmation of Councils. 607  
Councils may be summoned whether the Pope will or no. 665.  
Council of trident. 597.  
The Pope not Precedent in Councils. 669.  
Councils of Bishops. 674.  
The Emperor summoned general Counsels. 663. 664. 667. 670. 672.  
The Pope was summoned to come to Counsels. 663. 666.  
The Pope Confirmeth Councils. 665.  
The Pope's Legates had not the first place in Councils. 666.  
The freedom of the Council of Trent. 627. 632. 633.  
Godly men have refused to come to Counsels. 629. 630.  
Counsels called the determinations of men. 710.  
Councils general, repealed by Councils provincial. 711.  
Dissensions in the Tridentine Council. 634.  
Emperors and Kings Ambassadors in Council without voice. 634.  
The Council of trident of small credit. 710.  
The Council of Frankesorde. 712  
A Council general, what it is. 713  
In the Summon of the Council of Trent, the Pope had, forgotten the name of Christ. 710  
The credit of Councils, 488.  
The emperors authority over Councils. 674.  
Council general, not general. 708  
The Authority of Counsels, certain or uncertain. 486.  
The number of Bishops in the Council of Trident. 714.  
The Civil Prince or Magistrate subscribeth in Council. 686.  
diverse forms of Creeds. 83.   

D.  
The office of Deacons. 98.  
Departing from the Church of Rome. 568. 569. 570. 574. 582.  
Departing from the Pope. 104.  
Vain Devotion. 293.  
Disputation. 41.  
Dissensions in Religion. 337. 338.  
Dissensions in Religion among the old Fathers. 340.  
Dissensions among the school Doctors. 341. 349. 350.  
The Division of the empire. 403  
A Divine power in the Pope. 403  
The Duke of Sauoi● spoiled, 389.   

E.  
To Eat God. 278. 279. 239. 240.  
It is one thing to Eat Christ in Sacrament, & an other to Eat Christ in deed. 283.  
Gross imagination of the Eating of Christ's Body. 279. 280.  
The Emperor a child of the Church. 155.  
The Emperor bound to swear obedience to the Pope. 399.  
The Emperor so far beneath the Pope, as the Moon is beneath the Son. 400.  
The Emperor Steward of the Church of Rome. 119.  
The Emperor may translate the Supremacy from the Pope, to an other. 119.  
The Emperor Prince of the whole world. 675.  
The Emperor poisoned in the Sacrament. 408.  
The Emperor may lawfully make Ecclesiastical laws. 692. 693.  
The Emperor inferior only unto God. 424.  
The Emperor may depose the Pope. 405.  
The Emperor waited upon the Pope with bare head and bare foot. 417.  
The Emperor is the Pope's man 413.  
The Emperor limiteth the Catholic Faith. 668.  
The Enemies of God are cruel. 554  
The intention of the Priest. 209  
Epiphanius rend an Image. 504.  
Equality of Bishops. 109. 111. 112.  
The other Apostles Equal with Peter. 105.  
The Pope Equal with other Bishops. 109.  
Errors & abuses of the Church of Rome confessed by her own children. 627.  
Errors in the old Fathers. 337. 338.  
Errors among the Father's touching the Body of Christ. 353.  
The Pope's immoderate and Unreasonable Exactions of money. 734. 735. 736. 737. 738.  
To follow the Example of Christ 575.  
Exorcists. 98.  
Unjust Excommunication. 41.  
Excommunication without cause. 583.   

F.  
One learned Father received before a Council. 52.  
Fables and tales read in Churches. 520.  
The first Faith. 170.  
perfect Faith in Heathens. 320.  
The Faith planted in England before Augustine. 11.  
Christ's body present only by Faith. 235.  
We aseende by Faith into Heaven, and so eat the flesh of Christ. 269. 270. 287.  
The holy Father's oversights in the allegation of stories. 416.  
The Body of Christ eaten by Faith. 221. 224.  
By Faith we see, and touch Christ. 271. 272. 273. 289.  
Faith is the kay of the kingdom of Heaven. 138.  
The Authority of the Fathers. 52. 58. 59 60. 61. 62. 63. 64. 69.  
Faith of Infants. 216.  
Faith eateth. 〈◊〉 234. 235. 239.  
The Faith of the parents helpeth the Infants. 216.  
The pattern of the Faith. 702. 703. 706. 707.  
Faith eateth Christ being absent. 220. 221.  
Christ present by Faith. 289.  
fasting upon any certain days, not appointed. 197. 198.  
Fasting with flesh. 197.  
Faith without works, is no Faith. 321.  
Fond Faith is no Faith. 293.  
By Faith we eat Christ. 289.  
Christ's death applied by Faith. 298.  
By Faith we are incorporate unto Christ. 241. 243.  
Church in few, or many. 327. 328  
Shift of Figures used by. M. harding. 269.  
A Figure is not the thing itself. 205.  
Flamines, and Archiflamines. 121.  
The flourishing state of King Pipinus life. 406.  
Fornication in a Priest more tolerable than marriage. 366. 367.  
Simple Fornication, whether it be sin, or no sin. 360.  
Fornication winked at by the Pope's Canons. 362.  
The form of Baptism. 203.  
Form, and Substance. 98. 89.  
Forms, and accidents. 205. 231. 232.  
A priest may not be deposed for Fornication. 189.  
Franciscus' Dandal●s. 414.  
Free will, how free, how bond. 13●  
Perfect fulfilling of the la. 316. 317  
The fulfilling of the Law, possible, or impossible. 317.   

G.  
Gerson. 454.  
God's Truth mutable. 438.  
The credit of God's Word hangeth on the Pope. 438.  
The Gospel increased of small beginnings. 34.  
The Gospel of Christ reproved for novelty. 490. 491. 496.  
The fruits of the Gospel. 51.  
The Gospel of Christ shall not stand. 22.  
The Gospel of Christ sclaundenrously called gross and fleshly. 32.  
The increase of the Gospel. 38.  
The Gospel in Princes Courts. 34. 35.  
The Authority of Gratian. 28.  
Gratian often deceived. 226.  
The Greeks have neither private Mass nor half communion nor Purgatory. 578. 579. 580.  
Guilty of the Body, & Blood, etc. 587. 588.   

H.  
The Half communion weakly proved. 480. 481.  
M. Harding abateth five hundred years of his reckoning. 32.  
M. Harding misallegeth S. Augustine. 141.  
M. Harding fond applieth these words of Christ, The son of man came not to destroy, but to save. 254. 255.  
M. Harding misconstrueth S. Augustine. 61. 62.  
M. harding mistaketh josua for Osee. 101.  
Head of the Church. 94.  
Henry 4. and his qualities. 419.  
A woman Head of the Church. 644  
Heretics alleged Scriptures. 57 58. 59 60. 467.  
Heretics suppress the Scriptutes. 481.  
The Definition of Heresy. 46.  
The note of Herersie may not be dissembled. 45.  
Heretics discredit the Scriptures. 488.  
Heretics allege the Doctoures and Fathers. 495.  
Heretics accuse the Scriptures. 78. 474.  
Pope's have been Heretics. 612. 614. 615. 616. 617.  
Heretics confound all things, because they cannot discern the Creator from the Creature. 295.  
Ruffinus an Heretic. 672.  
Heretics alleged Councils, and Fathers. 57  
Heresy in good part. 48. 49.  
Heretics would be called Catholics. 433.  
Heretics hold by Tradition. 199.  
Heretics clothed with the name of the Church. 2.  
Condemned of Heresi upon light occasions. 46.  
Godly men accused of Heresi. 631.  
Hieremie set over Kingdoms and nations, in what sense. 399  
The highest Priest. 526. 527.  
Holy Orders. 96. 97.  
Holy Orders without offices. 98.  
The Holy Ghost is God. 90.  
Holy Water. 21.  
Hosius judgement of the Scriptures. 468.  
Hosius mistaken. 472.  
Huldericus the Bishop of Augusta. 186.  
Husband of one wife, and the meaning thereof, 174.  
Hus, and Jerome of prague. 48.   

I.  
S. james Epistle. 193.  
The ignorance of the clergy in times passed. 371.  
Images in Churches. 505.  
Adouring of Images. 503.  
Images painted in walls. 502.  
The blasphemous Invocation of our Lady, called by M. Hard. a spiritual dalliance. 313.  
India converted. 37.  
Innocentius 3. said, he would either lose his Triple mitre, or else he would pull th'emperor Philip's Crown● Empeperial from his head. 398.  
Invocation of Saints. 311.  
Dame Johan the Pope. 374.  
johannes Casa. 383.  
johannes Diazius slain by the procurement of his Brother. 383  
johannes Camo●ensis. 618.  
God's judgement followeth the judgement of the Priest, Reproved. 154.  
The Priest judge over sin. 152.  
The just man trusteth not in his own righteousnese. 323.  
The lust man sinneth, and deserveth evil. 321. 322.  
justification by Faith only. 74.  
justinian the Emperor deposed ij. Popes. 690. 691.   

K.  
The word of God is the Key. 144. 152.  
The Pope's Key shutteth, and openeth not. 143.  
Many Priests have not the Key of Knowledge. 136.  
Confusion of Keys. 160.  
Peter's kay greater than his fellows. 161. 162. 163.  
The Key of Instruction, and the Key of Correction. 149.  
Peter's Key equal with the rest 162. 163.  
Some Priests have no Key at al. 145.  
Knowledge is not the principal Key. ibidem.  
Kings, and Emperors hold the Pope's stirope, and lead his horse, bear his train, and cari● his dish. 412.  
kings may lawfully deal in Ecclesiastical causes. 636. 645. 647. 648. 654. 655. 656. 657. 658. 659. 660. 682. 683. 684. 688.  
Kings not always anointed by Bishops. 696.  
King john of England poisoned. 409.  
kings Fosterers, and Queen's Nurses of the Church. 649.   

L.  
The Lamb laid upon the Table, in what sense. 282. 283.  
Lay men, after a certain sort, be Priests. 131.  
They mystical Latin tongue. 517  
The Lamb of God is slain in the Holy Supper, in what sense 286.  
A Lay man may remit Sins. 137.  
Lenten fast. 198.  
Lenten fast, & Lenten meats. 270  
God causeth his light to shine out of barbarous and despised places. 391.  
Liga Sotularia. 388.  
Laghtes. 13.  
Lights, & tapers in Churches, 20   

M.  
priests have Married. 514.  
Marriage letteth not Prayer. 172.  
Good causes why Priests should be set at liberty, touching Marriage. 187. 188. 189. 190.  
priests Married within holy orders. 175. 176.  
Marriage hindereth. 182.  
The restraint of Marriage the doctrine of Devils. 182. 183.  
Bishops and Priests Married. 166. 167. 184.  
Marriage hindereth not the bishops duty. 177.  
The Apostles doctrine touching Marriage. 184. 185. 186.  
Marriage Condemned. 165.  
second Marriage is Fornication, in what sense. 174. 175.  
Not lawful to break priests marriage. 185.  
Marriage contracted after a vow is Lawful. 459.  
priests Marriage allowed. 173.  
second Marriage condemned. 166  
Marriage furthereth the Bishop's duty. 178. 179. 180.  
Marriage forbidden, not fornication. 182.  
All the Apostles, john excepted, were Married. 166. 184.  
Better to Marry, then to burn. 184.  
bishops twice Married. 174.  
A Priest may Marry. 171.  
Monks Married. 176  
priests Marriage not forbidden. 185. 186.  
Christ's death applied by the Mass without Faith. 297.  
Matrimony chaste and pure. 513.  
Church in many, or few. 38. 39  
Matrimony, neither good, nor ill. 178.  
The cares of Matrimony, ibidem.  
The blessed Virgin Marie, Idolatrously abused by Heretics. 312.  
martyrdom standeth not in the death, but in the cause. 30.  
The Books of the Maccabees. 193  
The Mass seven hundred years in furnishing. 194.  
Godly men, counted mad. 80.  
A Priest being Married ought not therefore to be refused in the ministration. 513.  
One Mass, or Communion, in one day. 524.  
The Emperor appointed metropolitans. 122.  
Trust in Merits. 77.  
mediator of Salvation: Mediator of intercession. 311.  
Merit and Mercy. 319. 321.  
Miracles. 37. 294. 699.  
Miracles wrought by feigned Christians. 700.  
The servants of Christ known by that they work no Miracles. 699.  
Miracles wrought by subtle men, or by the Devil. 294.  
Whether a Mouse may eat the Body of Christ, M. Harding'S Doctors cannot tell. 236. 260.  
The order of Monks in old times. 624.  
Superstition and covetousness in Monks. 625.  
Monks life, God's service. 509.  
Lawful suppressing of Monasteries. 600.  
Monasteries suppressed by the godly Fathers. 510.  
Monks living by their labour of their hands. 508. 509. 510.  
Monks from Christ, and the Prophets. 66.  
To be the Mother of God, is less than to be the child of God. 314  
Multiplication of keys. 145.   

N.  
Newenes in Religion. 32. 490. 491.  
Nominales and Reales. 344.  
Novatus. 134.   

O.  
Obedience. 16.  
Obedience unto man. 345.  
Christ's Body offered, in what sense. 277.  
Oil hallowed. 20.  
Oil in S. James. 73.  
One Head, one judge. 336.  
One only Bishop. 122. 451. 452.  
Peter the Only Bishop. 106.  
One Head. 101.  
One Shepherd, & one Flock. 102.  
One Bishopric, Expounded. 112. 113  
Open confession. 140.  
origen's judgement of the Sacrament. 501.  
Our God, our Lord: My God, my Lord. 386.   

P.  
Paphnutius. 173.  
The story of Paphnutius reproved. ibid.  
Parliaments holden without consent of Bishops. 596.  
Pardons. 402.  
Matters of Religion determined in Parliament. 596.  
Parliament, no Parliament. 595.  
patriarchs without office. 714.  
We may not believe Paul, if he speak as of himself. 108.  
Paul had no need of Poter. 106.  
S. Paul, and S. james accorded. 75  
Pauperes à Lugduno. 454.  
The People doth communicate by the mouth of the Priest. 297  
The People is in the cup. 283.  
Patience in Persecution. 335.  
Persecution a token of the truth 10.  
Persecution for love. 24. 25.  
The Godly work no Persecution. 732.  
The wicked complain of Persecution. 730.  
Truth groweth by Persecution. 484.  
Persecution, & delighting in Blood. 30  
Persecution for the Truths sake. 484.  
The Church increaseth by Persecution. 31.  
Peter over much avanced. 111.  
Peter the Shepherd, and the Apostles the sheep. 106.  
Peter Martyr and others falsely slandered. 475.  
The Apostles received their power of Peter. 106.  
Petrus Aloisius the Pope's son. 382  
Pius 4. endangered by his Cardidinalles. 41.  
The Pope's Chair of Porphyry stone. 379.  
The Pope prevaileth by darkness and Ignorance. 698.  
Whether the Pope be judas, or Peter, it skilleth not. 622.  
A certain Divine Power in the Pope. 541.  
The Pope is the Head springe of all Laws. 542. 543.  
The Pope Lord and God. 540.  
The Pope hath power over the Angels of God. 543.  
Popes and Cardinals nothings differing from civil Princes. 640. 641.  
The Pope Vicar to julius Caesar. 674.  
The Pope's Pardons. 547. 548.  
The Pope succeedeth Constantinus. 674.  
The Pope noted for antichrist. 457. 458. 459. 460.  
All other Bishops receive of the Pope's fullness. 531.  
The Pope may not be judged by any Prince, or other power. 532 533.  
The Pope useth both siverdes 522. 523. 528.  
Emperors & kings receive their free liberty of the Pope 534. 535  
The Pope above the Emperosi●e as far as the son is above the Moon. 536.  
The Pope hath all Laws in his breast. 482.  
Popes or Bishops of Rome, priests sons. 166.  
Wherein the Pope is like to Peter. 726.  
The Pope can never err. 725.  
The Pope is above Kings and Emperors. 397.  
The Pope a Christian man by the virtue of his office. 674. 675.  
The Pope absolveth by a deputy. 161.  
The Pope is a King. 650. 651. 652.  
The Pope is no King. 653.  
The Pope's power supernatural. 695, 696.  
The Pope and his clergy unlearned. 705.  
The Pope Peter's Successor. 675.  
The Pope choketh the power of all other Bishops. 125.  
The Pope riding in his Pontificalibus. 293. 294.  
Pope Hildebrande. 420. 421.  
The Pope treadeth on the Emperors neck. 422.  
The Pope's facts whatsoever they be, are excused. 423.  
The Pope inferior to the Prince. 425. 426.  
The Pope submitteth himself to the Emperor. 425.  
The Pope no universal Bishop, but limited only to a part. 427  
The Popes and Cardinals by their own friends compared to the Scribes & Phariseis. 430  
We are bound to obey, not Peter and Paul, but the Pope. 431  
The Pope heir apparent unto the Empire. 417.  
The Pope overthroweth the emperors crown with his foot. 418.  
The Pope may depose kings and Emperors. 404. 405.  
The Pope, whatsoever he be, is ever holy. 423.  
The Pope armeth Henry the son against his Father. 419.  
The Popes safeconduct. 633.  
The Pope's Legates, firebrands of troubles. 402.  
The Pope would have deposed Philippe the French King. 407  
The Pope's faith can not fail. 436  
The Pope claimed the Kingdom of France to himself. 407.  
No Salvation without the Pope. 104.  
The Pope judge in his own cause. 608.  
The Pope appointeth Kings and Emperors to kiss his feet. 410.  
The Pope keepeth not his own Counsels. 525.  
Pope john's error, touching the immortality of the soul. 617.  
The Pope discovered. 4.  
The Pope above the general Council. 609. 610. 611.  
Christ, and his Apostles could not rule the Church better than it is now ruled by the Pope. 551.  
Pet●●e Popes. 100  
The Pope may dispense against God's word. 51. 330. 331.  
All power given to the Pope 532.  
Pope Zofimus corrupted the Council of Nice. 612.  
The Pope uncertain of his own succession. 129.  
The Pope admitted by the emperors letters parents. 130.  
The Pope teacheth Humility in the School of pride. 410.  
The Pope's universal power. 104.  
The Pope's power not Universal. 115. 116. 123.  
The Priest hath the same power that Christ had. 138.  
The Pope receiveth his civil jurisdiction from the Prince. 534. 535  
The Pope is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. 544.  
It were best the whole world in all cases were ruled by the Pope alone. 400.  
The Pope so far above the King as God is above a man. 397.  
The Pope, the Prince, both of the heavenly, and also of the worldly Kingdom. 95.  
The Pope hath free liberty to do evil. 533.  
The Pope's Authority was but small before the Council of Nice. 115.  
The Pope the Headshepheard. 17.  
The Pope equal in credit with other Bishops. 52. 53.  
The Pope may make a Bishop only by his word. 129.  
The Pope summo●●●d by the Emperor to appear at Counsels. 57  
The Pope's credit above the Gospel. 51.  
One Pope contrary in judgement to an other. 52. 100 466.  
The Pope may err as a Private man: but in public judgement he cannot err. 52.  
The Pope's equal with the other patriarchs. 53●.  
All power geeven to the Pope. 103  
The Pope's power over Purgatory. 542.  
The Pope is no mere natural man 541.  
The Pope the universal Bishop of all the world. 530.  
Pope Leo, touching his own Sec. 111  
The Pope, Prince of Pastors. 112.  
The Pope equal with the other Petriarkes. 115.  
The Pope no universal Bishop. 118. 121.  
The Pope hardly obtained to be called the head of the church. 118  
The Pope above the whole Church. 65.  
A simple Priest above the pope. 397.  
To disobey the Pope. 40.  
The Pope increased in power, abated in holiness. 16.  
The dissolution of the empire wrought by the Pope. Ibidem.  
The Pope may bestow the Empire at his pleasure. 400.  
Pope Zacharie deposed Childericus the French King. 403.  
The Pope is all, and above al. 619.  
The Pope's judgement above all the judgement of the world▪ 482.  
The increasing of the Pope's temporal power. 403.  
Pope Victor poisoned in the Chalice. 40●.  
The Pope is more than God. 397.  
The Pope's stool of Porphyris stone. 410.  
Kings and Princes swear obedience to the Pope. 396.  
The Pope placeth himself above the Empire. 398.  
The Pope himself would not be called the universal Bishop. 45●  
The Pope can have no Superioure. 424.  
The Pope is Christ. 461.  
The Pope and his Clergy fallen from God. 453.  
Departing from the Pope. 430. 431.  
The Pope had no authority to summon Counsels. 671.  
The Pope's honour prejudicial to to the honour of God. 398.  
The Pope is the only Lord of temporal things. 426.  
Pope Sylvester dead before the Council of Nice. 666.  
The emperors place in Council at the Pope's feet. 635.  
A private man saying the truth, is to be heard before the Pope. 431.  
Popes and Cardinals entangled with worldly affairs. 640.  
It is sufficient for us to do●●es the Pope willeth us. 431.  
The Ambition of the Pope. 426.  
The Pope is the light that came in to the world. 619.  
The Pope is not the head of all Churches. 451. 452.  
The Pope hath invaded the right of all inferior Bishops. 452.  
Pope Adrian confesses that all evil grew from the See of Rome. 454 455.  
The Pope and his Clergy, Spoilers and Traitors. 462. 463.  
Prayer in a strange tongue. 516.  
The Pride of Rome. 110. 119.  
Moses a Priest. 651.  
priests Concubines allowed. 363. 367 370.  
priests take upon them the proud looks of the Phariseis. 153. 154.  
Lay men in a certain sense to be called Priests. 652.  
The priests power in remitting sin. 158. 159.  
Priests, or elders. 603.  
Prince of Priests, or highest Bishop▪ a title given to many Bishops 121  
Godly Princes careful for God's causes. 34. 35.  
The Prince the Supreme governor in Ecclesiastical causes. 643. 644. 645. 647.  
The Prince, touching his obedience towards God, is a private man. 394.  
The Prince bound to write out the book of the Law. 648. 649.  
Flattering of Princes. 591.  
Private Mass coldly avouched by M. harding. 225. 226. 227.  
The Prophets of God called Heretics. 233.  
The Pope's power over Purgatory. 299.  
Old fantasies of Purgatory. 299. 300.  
Prayer for the dead importeth not Purgatory. 300.  
Vain proves for Purgatory. 301.  
The Blood of Christ is our true Purgatory. 301. 305. 306.  
There is no Purgatory. 302.  
Scriptures disproving Purgatotie. 304  
Purgatory Imagined by the Heathens 305.  
Contrary opinions of Purgatory. 306.  
Roffensis confesseth that the old Fathers made little mention of Purgatory. 307.  
The Greeks never believed Purgatory. 302. 307.  
S. Augustine doubteth of Purgatory 305.  
M. harding imagineth double fire in Purgatory. 306.  
S. Augustine denieth Purgatory. ibid.  
Paul and Peter must pass through Purgatory. 301.   

Q.  
Quodammodo miscetur mihi. 242. 243   

R.  
Readers. 98.  
Reading of the Scriptures without prayer. 195.  
Children of xiv. years of age admitted to be Readers in the Church. 602.  
Rebellion. 16.  
The Bowers Rebellion in Germany. 388  
Recourse to Rome. 702. 703. 704.  
Reconciliation of dissensions. 354.  
Regiment of weemennes. 389.  
Relics, or dead men's bones. 705.  
The King determineth cases in Religion. 12.  
The cause of Resurrection. 324. 325.  
The good man worketh good things, without hope of Reward. 320  
Our perfection of Righteousness is unperfit. 317. 318.  
The Roman Religion in many points agreeable with the Manichees. 17.  
The Roman clergy deceivers, false teachers, and pilate's. 461.  
The Roman Faith shall never fail. 22  
The Roman Faith spoken of through the world. 436.  
The filthy life of the Roman Clergy. 367. 368.  
Errors and abuses in the Roman Church confessed. 24.  
Rome is Babylon. 719. 720.  
Fond questions resolved at Rome. 704.  
The Tragedies of Rome. 79.  
Rome the root of evil. 455.  
Departure from the Church of Rome. 17.   

S.  
Two Sacraments. 202. 214.  
Sacraments ministered without understanding. 203.  
Sacraments sanctify, and contain grace. 203. 204.  
Sacraments be signs. 205.  
Vehement phrases of the Sacraments, 246.  
The grace of the Sacraments. 235.  
The number of Sacraments. 212. 213.  
Sacraments be words visible. 145.  
Sacrament turned into a Divine substance. 252.  
The Bread and Wine of the Sacrament do nourish. 205.  
The Scaramentes of the old Law, & the new. 206.  
The visible parts of Sacraments are things corruptible. 257. 260.  
God's special working in all Sacraments. 254.  
The Sacrament is a figure. 244.  
God's omnipotent power in the Sacraments. 245.  
In the Sacrament, or by the Sacrament. 232.  
Sacraments are Seals of God's promises. 134.  
Sacraments necessary, & how. 149. 150  
The dividing or breaking of the Sacrament. 521.  
Nature, Power, Virtue in Sacraments. 253. 254.  
M. Harding referreth the judgement of Sacraments to his senses. 255.  
Disdainful speeches of the Sacraments used by M. harding. 268.  
Christ is crucified, and dieth in the Sacrament. 269.  
The Sacrament changed into the substance of our flesh. 259.  
Sacraments are signs. 73.  
Vehement speeches of the Sacrament 239.  
The Bread changed into a Sacrament 244.  
The Sacrament under both kinds of Christ's Institution. 229. 230.  
The Sacraments of the new Law give grace, in what sense. 062.  
The difference between the Sacrament, and the substance of the Sacrament. 222. 224.  
The Sacraments work in us the hope of Resurrection. 221. 222.  
The carieing about of the Sacrament 293. 295.  
The Sacrament dependeth not on the Minister. 215.  
The Sacrament is one thing, and Christ's Body is an other thing. 222 230. 232. 268.  
The Sacrifice of Melchisedeth. 434.  
Saints offices distincted. 313.  
Sale of Masses, and of Merits. 292.  
Certainty of Salvation. 75.  
The School Doctors. 19  
The Scripture a dead letter. 473. 474  
The Scriptures translated into divers tongues. 588. 589.  
The Scriptures preserved by God's providence. 478  
The people ought to read the Scriptures. 506.  
The Scriptures preserved by the jews 478  
The Scriptures inferior to the Church. 474.  
The Scriptures take their force of the Church of Rome. 456. 593.  
Ignorance of Scriptures is sin. 590.  
The Scripture standeth in the sense, & not in the words. 54. 72. 194.  
How know you that these be the Scriptures? a fond question. 200.  
Scriptures at diverse times, diversely expounded. 78.  
Scripture receiveth authority of the Church. 77.  
The old translation of the Scriptures corrupted. 598.  
The Scriptures foully abused. 53. 77. 467.  
Scriptures only to be read in Churches. 519.  
Scriptures follow the Church, and not the Church the Scriptures. 78.  
We may not hear an Angel of God against the Scriptures. 485.  
The Heretics alleged the Scriptures. 72.  
The simplest of the people in old times disputed of the Scriptures. 507  
The Scriptures disclose all errors. 481  
Grace to discern Scriptures. 201.  
boasting of the Holy Ghost without the Scriptures. 65.  
God's Scriptures lewdly scorned. 193.  
Scriptures forged. 201.  
The authority of the Scriptures. 69.  
The simple people may read the Scrip 〈◊〉. 589. 590.  
The people cannot judge of the Scriptures, because the Scholar is not above his Master. 487.  
Towards the end of the world, the people shall flee to the Scriptures. 716. 721.  
Scriptures sufficiete to debate all doubts. 58. 59 61. 62. 64. 69.  
The Scriptures of God must be expounded by the Spirit of God. 65.  
Search the Scriptures. 72.  
To sell Christ. 292.  
Simple error. 46. 50.  
A Priest may not be deposed for simple fornication. 362. 363. 364. 365.  
Simple fornication, whether it be sin, or no. 361.  
The judge of sin. 140. ●53.  
The word of God forgiveth Sins. 158.  
Sin forgiven without Cousesnon. 155.  
The Pope cannot commit Simony. 560. 561. 562. 563.  
unchaste single life, worse than adultery. 170.  
Filthiness maintained under the colour of single life. 167. 168.  
The Priest forgiveth not sin. 154.  
Sins forgiven by hearing the word of God. 138.  
The fruits of single life. 187. 188. 189.  
Singer's. 98.  
Spiritual eating of Christ's Body. 271 272. 274. 280.  
Stews in Rome. 369. 370. 371. 373.  
stubbornness. 46. 50. 590.  
Substance. 251.  
substance, by M. hardings judgement, signifieth Accidents. 253.  
Succession. 127.  
Succession not sufficient. 132.  
Succession in Peter's Chair. 727.  
The Succession of Popes. 131. 132.  
Christ was able to show no succession. 128.  
The Pope hath his holiness by Succession. 39  
Certainty of Succession. Ibidem.  
Summus Sacerdos. 526. 527.  
Superstitious choice of meats. 270.  
Superintendents. 597.  
Sursum corda, used in the time of the holy mysteries. 275.   

T.  
Temple. 328.  
Theophylacte answered. 239.  
He that entereth not by the word of God, is a Thief. 102.  
The Pope's tyranny over Princes. 732.  
Tyranny and cruelty in the Popes. 79  
friar Ticelles Proclamation. 34.  
Traditions. 195.  
Vain Traditions fathered upon the Apostles. 66.  
Tradition is the sense of the Scripture. 72.  
Traditions and Errors cut of by God's word. 67.  
Traditions equal with God's word. 195.  
Traditions used for the word of God. 196. 197.  
Traditions broken. 195.  
Tradition against the Scripture. 65. 66  
Traditions abused. 66.  
Transubstantiation new and doubtful. 237 238.  
Tridentine Council referred all to the Pope. 634.  
Truth devoureth falsehood. 585.  
Truth blinded with falsehood. 7.  
The Truth still a stranger. 9  
Truth il entreated, & slandered, 4. 5  
Truth will conquer. 284.  
Truth prevaileth. 731.  
The spirit of Truth in Annas and Caiphas. 621.   

V  
Valentinian the Emperor refused to hear Ecclesiastical causes. 667.  
Venial sins remitted other ways, then by the blood of Christ. 151.  
The Pope changeth vice into virtue. 564.  
Vigilantius. 13.  
The Church is the Pope's Vineyard. 608.  
The perpetual virginity of our Lady. 200.  
The vicious life of the Roman Clergy. 358.  
I will no more drink of this fruit of the Vine, expounded. 262.  
One universal Bishop. 99 122.  
Universal power committed no more to Peter, then to Paul. 124.  
An University in Rome. 377.  
The Pope's vaunting of his universal power. 125.  
Pope Gregory refuseth the name of Universal Bishop. 124.  
Reasons for the Universality of the Pope. 100 101.  
Unity, a token of the Truth. 352.  
The Universal Church dependeth on the Pope. 452.  
The Universal church may fail. 450  
Unity among the wicked. 352.  
The Unity of the Church resteth (not in one Christ, but) in one Pope. 100 466. 467.  
Pride itself desireth Unity. 100  
Ministers Unlearned. 602.  
The Roman clergy Unlearned. 601. 602.  
A vow simple, or solemn. 499.  
vow annexed unto holy orders. 171.  
Volusianus the Bishop of Carthage. 366   

W.  
Water was not water, but blood. 246  
Watches. 13.  
women changed into men. 380.  
Wicked men commended. 421.  
The Wicked eat not the Body of Christ. 210. 241. 273. 349. 586.  
The Wicked receive the Body of Christ, in what sense. 210.  
Wilful stubbornness. 435.  
Witenberg. 391.  
A poor husbandman bringing the Word of God, aught to be believed before Pope or Council. 611.  
The Authority of God's Word. 194   

Z.  
Zele, and grief of mind against the enemies of God. 3.   
FINIS.