A COLLECTION OF CERTAIN LETTERS AND CONFERENCES LATELY PASSED BETWIXT CERTAIN PREACHERS & TWO PRISONERS IN THE FLEET.  
1590.   

To the Reader.  
COnsidering the reformist Preachers are now become the BBs. trusty actors in their most cunning & cruel enterprises, who erewhile would make the world believe that they neither pleaded for the BBs. took their ministry from them, submitted it unto them, or subscribed unto their proceed, no●… would ever oppose against the truth or any part thereof, much less be at the commandment of their LLs. the BBs. to persecute Christ's afflicted, or be partakers in their innocent bloodshedding; again, that they pitied the ignorance of those that went to far, & charitably sought to reduce them. I thought it therefore my duty (that the truth of these things might appear) to give thee to understand how they have behaved themselves in this business, & what was the power of their weapons in conference against those men, whom they have so r●…prochfully published in their Pulpits & writings to be silly men, hot spirited, ignorant, Brownists, Schismatics etc. to the intent thou mightest equally consider of both sides (by these few things discussed between them) the estate of their controversies, as also how many of these Prisoners Arguments against their Church, ministry, & administation lie upon them vnans●…red. For the Conferences, the truth of them thou mayst perceive in certain Letters which passed betwixt them, how carefully & upon what sure ground the Prisoners related them; And if tho●… find not such pith or substance in the matters discussed betwixt them of weighty doctrines as might be expected of such men, thou must consider & mayest perceive that these Preachers were loath to have the sore touched, but by evasions sought always to darken & torn away the truth with indirect answers & cunning distinctions. And to make the matter more evident, I have at the latter end annexed certain Arguments, given their chief Teachers long ago to have answered by writing, the which they have (as these Prisoner's report) closely put up, and with an evil conscience spoken evil in their Pulpits, in stead of consent & repentance. Which course of railing & denying of free conference thou see●…t they still are wholly bend to proceed in, how unchristian soever it be, thinking thereby their auditory ●…hall still be held in false reports & blindness; sufficiently satisfied upon these men's words to persecute these poor afflicted Prisoners, who love not their lives unto death, that the truth might come to light to thy salvation. And (to my grief) I must desire thee to remember, that the Preachers are to nothing more unwilling, then to grant these silly men a free conference, making no scruple in the mean time to speak all manner evil sayings of them, unconuicted by them of any error or crime, which bewrayeth both their corrupt ways wherein they walk, that may not be brought to trial, and also their spirit to be void of true Christian love, howsoever they pretend outward holiness. As ●…hou findest God give thee grace without pa●…tialitie to value & esteem the truth of God, not after m●…ns persons, but as the cause itself requireth; and the peace of God shall rest upon thee for ever.   

The sum of the Conference betwixt Mr. THOMAS SPERIN & me HENRY BARROW upon the 14 of the third month in the Fleet, as near as my ill memory could carry away.  SPER. 
FIrst Mr. Sperin signified unto me that he was sent by the Bishop of London to confer with me concerning certain things that I was said to hold, Namely that there was no Church in England.  BAR. 
I answered that for the Bishop of London I had nothing to do with him, neither he with me; what I hold concerning their Church of England the Bishhopps knew long ago, & never as yet would grant either public or private conference, where the Book of GOD might quietly decide the controversies betwixt us; but they had ymprisoned me in close & most straight imprisonment now two years & well nigh an half, besides many more grievous injuries offered unto us, as publishing us Heretics, schismatics, Anabaptists, Recusants, turbulent, seditious, & what not in their Pulpits, privileged books, sparsed libels, accused us for such unto ou●… most honourable magistrates at publ●…cke Sessions etc. Therefore I had just cause to suspect any conferencc that he could send unto me, considering his manifold mischievous practices against the Gospel & true servants of CHRIST continually.  SPER. 
hereupon Mr. Sperin protested his coming to be in love to conser brotherly & christianly with me, not unto my harm or prejudice any kind of way, and began in some faint ●…ermes to def●…nd the B. of London to be learned, grave, wise etc.  BAR. 
I said that could not be, he was a grievous enemy unto the truth, to CHRIST, and his Saints, now holding above 60. of them in sundry Prisons without cause, law, or conscience; Y●…a I affirmed him to be an APOSTATA, a persecuter of that truth he sometime gladly 〈◊〉 & defended, & therefore his name was grievous & hateful unto me; and further I demanded of Mr. Sperin his name, which being understood, I willed him from henceforth to use his own n●…me unto me, for so I would not deny any kind of conference at any time, which was in my power to grant; but I said that I marveled to see him come now in the BBs. name, because I had heard he had sometimes been otherwise minded.  SPER. 
To this he answered that he ever thought reverently of the bishops, both for their learning, as also because her Majesty hath authorized them.  BAR. 
I showed their unlawful ANTICHRISTIAN Beastlike power & authority, as also their barbarous havoc they exercised in the Church, confounding & subverting all God's ordinances, & setting up their own devices in stead thereof; And therefore they that reverence these men call CHRIST execrable, & worship the beast.  SPER. 
Here Mr. Sperin objected against me the place of IVDE, that I despised government, & spoke evil of them in authority.  BAR. 
If the things I have spoken be true, or that their authority be not of God (both which I affirm & will approve by the word of God) than you greatly injure both this Scripture & me.  SPER. 
Their authority is of God, in as much as it is of the Prince.  BAR. 
The Prince cannot make lawful that which God forbiddeth, namely to have & exercise both ecclesiastical & civil authority, as this man doth from whom you come.  SPER. 
I justify not his ecclesiastical authority, but that authority he hath from the Prince.  BAR. 
If he be a civil magistrate why is he called a Bishop, & usurpeth an ecclesiastical function?  SPER. 
May not civil magistrates be called Bishops?  BAR. 
I never read that they were so in the new Testament, yet I acknowledge they are called Shepherds in EZEKIEL & MICAH, but this man we speak of was sometimes a Parson of a Town, if not of more than one, than an Archdeacon, now a Lord B. which offices by their use appear, and by the laws of our land are held to be ecclesiastical.  SPER. 
Much is to be given to the Prince's authority.  BAR. 
We will afterward speak of the Prince's authority, let us first inquire of these their offices.  SPER. 
I will not here reason further of them; For there were many in the windows, & by this time was my keeper returned with paper & ink, which he was a little before sent for.  
I had forgotten to insert certain speech we had concerning the Church: I told Mr. Sperin that I neu●…r deni●…d that CHRIST h●…d his Church in England, but that Church was s●…perate & gathered from the profane of the land, & now in gr●…t p●…rsecution under the malignant Church. He then demanded of me what I thouht of thei●… parish assemblies; I answered that as they stood in this confusion & Idolatry, they could not be held the true e●…tablished Churches of CHRIST. Now the ink & paper being brought Mr. Sperin set down this Proposition.  SPER. 
The parish assemblies which have preaching Ministers who for life and doctrine are unreprovable, and which themselves profess the true faith & Christian obedience, are Churches.  BAR. 
Hereunto I set down this other Proposition.  
Your parish assemblies as they generally consist of all profane, wicked etc. mingled together in one body, worshipping God after the deui●…es of men, s●…anding in subjection ●…o the An●…ichristian power & Courts of the BBs. etc. though they have a preaching Ministry, yet are not the true established Churches of Christ.  
I denied also his Proposition, Namely that there were any such parishes which made such profession of faith & obedience, and had such a Minister as he spoke of, which he endeavoured to prove thus.  SPER. 
They are as lawful Churches of Christ, as the assembly of believers in Corinth was a lawful Church of Christ; But tha●… assembly was a lawful Church of Christ 1. Corinth. 1. 2.  BAR. 
Your first Proposition is denied.  SPER. 
What soever was necessary to the decerning of the Church of God in the assembly of Corinth, is in our assemblies.  BAR. 
It is still denied.  SPER. 
The profession of faith & obedience, ministry & Sacraments, were the necessary points whereby to discern that Church, but these we have in as good or better manner than they.  BAR. 
It is not so with you, you have not these things in such manner as the Church of Corinth had.  SPER. 
I will insist upon my Parish in milkstreet; It maketh such profession of faith, hath such a ministry of the Gosp●…ll etc.  BAR. 
It maketh not such profession, nor hath such a ministry of the Gospel.  SPER. 
Some of the Church of Corinth erred in chief points o●… the faith, denying the resurrection etc. They erred in manners being given to fornication, incest, oppression, Drunkenness, their ministry were vainglorious, mixing & teaching their doctrines with the words that man's wisdom affordeth, de●…iuering their Sacraments a●…ter a corrupt & evil manner etc. Yet for all these faults they were pronounced by the holy Gho●…t the Church of God; But in my Parish in milkstreet we hold no such opinions or errors, we have no such faults either in life or manners, nor in our ministry; so ours is much more the Church of God.  BAR. 
It is veri●… preposterous to reason of the ministration of, & i●… the Church, before you have proved your Pari●…h to be an established Church, which you see I deny, & require you to prove; In all this you have reasoned from a Church to no Church, & so no comparison betwixt them, nor sequel of your Argume●…t. The best Church that ever was or shallbe whilst it consisteth of mortal men is daily subject to many errors, which faults being showed in the glass of God's word, it by & by washeth & purgeth them away in that fountain which is opened to the house of DAVID for s●…nne & uncleaneness; sundry of the Church of Corinth erred in many of these things, the whole Church in some, as in the abuse of both the Sacraments, the neglect of their ecclesiastical cen●…ures; But the Church of Corinth upon the Apostles admonition by one letter repent, showed great sorrow, & amended. But now for your Parish it consisteth of a confuse company of profane; Atheists, covetous, glu●…tons, vain, light, ignorant, & wicked people of all degrees & estates, of each sex●… & age, they being all generally without the knowledge, faith, or fear of God, without care of this life or of the life to come▪ to all which you indifferently administer & sell your Sacraments, delivering them in a false manner not according to CHRIST'S Testament; Your whole ministry & ministration is false & Antichristian; further you have neither the freedom to practise CHRIST'S Testament, nor the power or will to redress any thing that is amiss amongst you, but e●…ther run to the Antichristian power & Courts of the bishops, or else continue obstinate & careless in your sins. Thus you see no comparison any way betwixt the Church of Corinth & your Parish.  SPER. 
I know the contrary to this, I both know & visit all the householders & their families, & I admit not any to the Sacraments which have not knowledge & make true profession of faith.  BAR. 
I know this I have said to be true, & that you have & do admit some to your Sacraments which have no such knowledge & make no such profession of faith.  SPER. 
What is true profession?  BAR. 
Where faith & obedience are joined to the word of God.  S●…. 
They all make true profession & belelee●…e accordingly, who so doth not, I separate him from the Sacraments.  BAR. 
Their ungodly life & false manner of worshipping of God show, that they neither profess nor believe aright; further thi●… your manner of suspending or separating, is as popish as the rest, even the Instrument of that foolish Shepherd: where find you in all CHRIST'S Testament that one man may separate any alone?  SPER. 
I do it with the consent of the people.  BAR. 
How should that be when they know not of it: Do no●… you it by virtue of your Idol service-book, and by that power your Lord the Bishop alloweth you? for CHRIST never gave any such censure as this suspension ●…o his Church, or such power to any one man to separate any from the Sacraments, which is not pronounced excommunicate.  SPER. 
PAUL to the Thessa●…ians willeth that such as are found disobedient should be noted with a letter, & his company avoided that he might be ashamed.  BAR. 
You allege not the text right, neither doth the Apostle there mean of suspension: It is wonderful how you & som●… others that have written of, & seemed to seek reformation, dare thus apparently innovate the Testament of CHRIST, by bringing in your devices into the Church & putting them in stead of a Sceptre into CHRIST'S hand, making him to reign by them, & exercise them over the souls of men.  
By this time many being gotten into the Parlour & more into the windows, we thought it meet to remove up to the chamber where I lie: Being come thither & set down, I willed Mr. Sperin to find out & apply his place of the Thessal●…niās, which he did: It was 2. Thessaly. 3. 14. & could serve nothing fo●… suspension. The place not being further enforced or stood upon by Mr. Sperin, I called back again to the point where we left, or rather where we began viz. That he should prove his Parish in milkstreet to be a true established Church of CHRIST; And thereupon I set him down this Argumen●… in writing.  
In your Congregation in Milkstreet you have no holy or orderly commu●…ion nor true ministery of the Gospel, no Christian power, freedom ●…r order, therefore no true established church of Christ.  SPER. 
Here Mr. Sperin affirmed again his parishioners to be a faithful, holy, free people, walking orderly according to the Gospel, & proved it thus; because he doth administer the Sacraments to none but unto such as he knoweth faithful, saying that he knoweth all the parishioners both men & women to be such, excep●… one household, neither did he admit any of their 〈◊〉 to the Communion before they came to him, & fetch●… his token, at which time he examined them.  BAR. 
Were not all the parish of your Church, & did not you administer the Sacraments unto them all & to their seed, even the first day you were made their Pastor? how could you then have this assurance of their faith?  SPER. 
They had before a faithful & godly man to their P●…stor (naming Mr. Paget) by whom they were instructed, therefore there was no cause that I should doubt of their faithfulness.  BAR. 
I ween that man still liveth; Thus you buy & sell, chop & change your ecclesiastical offices & livings of your Church as horses in a fair; he was even as unlawful a minister as yourself, he showed himself a hireling in that he forsook his flock.  SPER. 
Why is ●…t not lawful with consent of the flock, upon some occasions to remove?  BAR. 
But the Priests of England come & go at their own pleasure as best is for their gain, without the privity or goodwill of the people; he showed himself a hireling both at his entrance and departure, so could he no way ●…ustifie or approve this whole parish unto you; But let me ask you a question, how found Mr. Paget this parish?  SPER. 
Peradventure they had a Preacher before; But why ask you?  BAR. 
For this reason, because in Q. MARY'S time they were all apostate & fallen to Idolatry; at the beginning of Q. ELISABETH●… r●…igne they were all found in that estate, & by the first sound of her Trumpet all made Protestants, had this ministry set over them, the Gospel & Sacraments ymmed●…atlie administered▪ eu●… in the same parishes & estate as they now stand: So that I would know of you whether this people in this estate were a fit flock or congregation to receive the ministry of the Gospel & Sacraments or no; and also whether any Preacher (●…ow cunning soever) can make this people, which continue in the same estate, without any repentance or amend●…mēt of their former doing●…▪ the true Church of CHRIST or no.  SPER. 
Neither did they all apostate in Q. MARY'S days, neither do I think they thereby forsook their christianity, or were no Church.  BA●…. 
Idolatry was then publicly set up & exercised in their Church, all the parish resorted & gave outward obedience to the same, such as refreined were either forthwith persecuted unto the death, or out of the land; therefore I may affirm that all the pa●… that remained were generally apostate, & so found & received in that estate of this ministry to these Sacraments, & so successively have they continued to administer unto them for the wage of BALAA●…. Now that in this ●…ime of popery & Idolatry they could be no Church, the whole first Table of the law showeth plainly. There is but one God, one Spirit, one Faith, one Christ, one Church, one ministery: Christ is not divided▪ he is not here & there, neither doth he communicate with Antichrist or Idols.  
There must needs then be a separation made of the faithful from the unbeleeners, Idolaters, profane, before there can be a flock or fit people for the Lord.  
There must needs also be a flock befo●… there can be a Pastor or true ministry erected or exercised; but as yet your parish in milk●…treet was never thus separate from the profane of the land, or prepared to receive or exercise the ministry of CHRIST; therefore both people & ministry are still in confusion & disorder, & cannot be held the true established Church of CHRIST.  SPER. 
They are separate from the propha●…e, neither suffer I ani●… such to communicate there.  BAR. 
They still stand in the same estate & confusion that they were first received at the beginning of our Q. ELIZABETH'S reign, even all the pari●…h that now dwell there, or hereafter shall dwell there, without exception of any person, all are of your Church, none all this while separate, no not one put from amongst you; therefore you stand in the same estate that the rest do, eve one body with all the wocked of the land, vnless●… you also think that there are none wicked amongst you, none wicked in the land.  SPER. 
I know none wicked in all my parish.  BAR. 
What not one wicked all this while? s●…re you then have a more excellent Church than ever was on the earth: But trow you ●…re none wicked in all the land, with whom you stand one body? (for all are of your Church) will you justify also all the Pari●… of England?  SPER. 
I will justify all those Parishes that have preaching ministers.  BAR. 
And what think you of those that have vnpre●…ching ministers?  SPER. 
I think not such to be true Churches.  
Mr. Speri●…●…as here requested to set down this under his h●…nd, but would not.  BAR. 
Surely these Preachers are wondrous men, they can do more than ever our Saviour CHRIST or his Apostles could do with their preaching, that in all places wheresoever they become can eftsoons immediately make that Church which ere while was none, the true Church of Christ, & that all the Parish without exception of an●…e one person, & that even as soon as they are become ministers of the same. But what if that Parish where an unpreaching Priest is, make the same profession that the other do that have Preachers, are they then no Churches?  SPER. 
Yes if they make the same profession of faith, than I hold them Churches also.  BAR. 
That they do: All the Parishes in England have the same confession, Creed, & english service-book read, as the Papists also have the same Creeds, paternosters, Pistles, Gospels, & much of this service-book, therefore they are all of the Church, & so we are again where we began, and all the land of your Church, without seperacon or exceptio of person; for all the land maketh this confession after this manner.  
But we have enough now spoken of these Parishes, let us come to the ministery of your Church of England, what shall we think of the unpreaching ministry, is it a ministry or no?  SPER. 
It is necessary that the Church should have the Scriptures read, and that by a minister.  BAR. 
You answer not the point; the question is, whither they be ministers or no.  SPER. 
I think they are Ministers.  BAR. 
Pastors they cannot be, because they cannot teach; which Mr. SP●…RIN consented unto: Yet adventure they to deliver, & the Parishes to receive their Sacraments, which none but Pastors can do; They also both possess & supply the rooms of parish-parsons'. But I would now see how you can approve your own ministery by the Testament of CHRIST; which he cnde vored to do by this Proposition.  Sper. 
My ministery is from God, with the appro●…ion of the assembly of 〈◊〉 Church where I am.  BAR. 
That cannot be, you were presented by your L. Patron, instituted by your L. Bishop in some place at his appointment, not in the presence of your Congregation, they were not called neither had they any thing to do with the action, they must take of force such an one as is thrust upon them by these LLs▪ the Patron & Bishop; they have n●…ither consent nor descent nor any thing to do in this action; they can neither choose nor refuse nor put away for any fault that their Parson can commit, be it never so heinous; be he an Heretic, conjuror, Adulterer, drunkard, they can for no error or crime put him away, they mu●… join unto him in prayer & Sacraments until the Bishop remou●… him. Thus have ye not that approbation even of this p●…ople you speak of, which though you had could nothing avail but rather overthrow your ministery, they being as yet ungathered to Christ, and therefore neither may in this estate choose a Minister; nor any exe●…ise a ministery unto them, without ●…eynous sacrilege: But this your ministery both in your entrance, office, & whole administration is Antichristian, your entrance being by the Patron & Bishop, your office to be a town Priest or parish Parson, your administration according to the prescription & limitation of your L the Bishop, to whom you have sworn your canonical obedience.  SPER. 
The Patron doth elect by consent of the people, who have yielded their right unto him, as unto the wisest & worthiest amongst them, and so they approve his choice.  BAR. 
Whether the Patron had that power & privilege of the people o●… no is doubtful I think rather of the Pope: But that he doth it without their privity & maugre their wills, it is evident; For be the Patron an hundredth miles of, be he●… child, a woman, yet they both may & will give the Benefice without the knowledge, privity, or consent of the parish. Now which way can either this election be justified by the Testament of Christ, or be joined unto the ministery of Christ?  SPER. 
I make less matter of my ordination then of my ministry.  BAR. 
Yet withou●… a true calling you cannot exercise any true offic●….  SPER. 
The calling is not the substance of the ministry.  BAR. 
Thus whilst you profess science you make shipwreck of faith, & with your logic put away the Testament of Christ. Christ faith that he which ascendeth into the sheepfold any other way is a thief & a spoiler; & in ●…other place; No man taketh this honour to himself, but he that is called of God etc. Christ hath ordained to every offic●… laws for the gifts, life, & conversation of the Officer, for his probation, election, ordination, administration: He which wanteth the calling of Christ unto the ministry cannot have or exercise any ministery in the Church; but you want the calling of Christ unto your ministry; therefore the ministery you exercise is not of Christ.  SPER. 
I have the true calling of Christ unto my ministry in my conscience.  BAR. 
The Conscience only is assured, & re●…h upon the word of God; But your calling unto this ministery can●…ot be 〈◊〉 by the word of God, but is found thereby to be unlawful & antichristian; Therefore etc.  SPER. 
I stand not upon my outward calling by the Bishop so much as upon my inward calling & the consent of the people.  BAR. 
But the people you said erewhile consented to the election of the Patron, the ordination of the B. etc. therefore their consent was unto & in enil, & so can no way justify your ministery, neither have the people any power to make any other or better Election, all of them standing under the antichristian yoke of these Babylonish bishops.  SPER. 
I will not stand to justify the calling of the bishops, I have a better calling than the calling of the bishops.  BAR. 
But what then think you of the calling of these BBs.  SPER. 
I confess it to be unlawful.  BAR. 
Set down that under your hand.  SPER. 
To wh●…t end; that were to bring myself into danger.  BAR. 
Are you afraid to witness unto the truth? Well, but being unlawful how 〈◊〉 you were not afeard to receive it, & still to re●…eine it?  SPER. 
I did i●… in ignor●…nce, I have since repent it.  BAR. 
Which way could you be a true minister that knew not so much as the true entrance unto a true ministry; how durst you adventure to administer before the Lord, & take the care of the souls of men in this ignorance? further how can you be said to have truly repent that calling which you still retain, still administering by the same the Bishop's licence, & still standing under his yoke & obedience?  SPER. 
I attribute much to the civil magistrate, I do it because of the civil magistrate that authorizeth the B.  BAR. 
But may the civil magistrate either comm●…d any thing contrary to the 〈◊〉 of God▪ or if he do is ●…e to be obeyed therein, or ca he excuse you befo●… the Tribunal of Christ for the breach of God's laws?  SPER. 
Why then you affirm that the Queen & the Parliament do wickedly in giving this power & authority unto the BBs. will you write that?  BAR. 
Yea that I will by the grac●… of God whilst I have breath, & 〈◊〉 it with my blood also (if so God will) yt being directly contrary to the Testament of Christ as yourself confesseth, & yet continue to do contrary to your own Conscience O take heed, God is greater than your conscience: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  SPER. 
I thank God I have his calling unto my ministry, which is the inward calling, being approved by my gyft●…s unto my Flock, so that though there were error in my outward calling (which I have repent) yet my ministry is not disannulled.  BAR. 
With what conscience can you now call that an error in a true calling, which even now you confessed to be a false calling? Is not this to diminish, excuse, & hide your sin? call you this true repentance, how can you be thought, or dare you affirm to have repeated this error in your entrance into your ministry, when you still plead for & justify that calling by the civil magistrate, when you confess it repugnant unto, & condemned in the Testamet of CHRIST, how can you be said to have repent it when you still retain it, stand & administer by it, and join unto such as still enter that way? neither in deed have you a●…ie other calling unto your ministery in your Church: make it therefore either good or evil, lawful or unlawful by the word of God, let us bring it to the trial.  SPER. 
I stand not so much by their calling as by the calling of God, by whom I am enabled to my ministry.  BAR. 
This is anabaptistical to justify open transgression by the inward conscience or gifts; might not any thus usurp the civil magistrates office also by thei●… inward gifts, wisdom, knowledge, fitness etc. but God hath ordained a lawful calling to every lawful office, which may at no hand be severed from the office▪ which calling who so wanteth & taketh honour to himself to administer etc. breaketh the bounds of God & usurpeth: You have no gifts which you have not received of God, God knoweth his own gifts which he hath given to every one best whom h●… seethe meet & hath appointed to the ministery, unto such he always giveth a lawful calling unto the ministery; wherefore you must either approve your calling by the word of God, or else be held 〈◊〉 usurper, for all your gifts.  SPER. 
The BBs. tolerate many things with us.  BAR. 
They allow nothing but their own proceed, neither doth the land receive or allow any other.  SPER. 
I say not allow, they may suffer that they allow not.  BAR. 
Here is good work amongst you, they tolerate with you, & you subscribe unto them; thus are you together in conspiracy against CHRIST.  SPER. 
Will you say that Mr. EGERTON & Mr. GARDINER are not true ministers of the Gospel because they have no such calling as you require?  BAR. 
I require no other calling then CHRIST enjoineth, which calling if they want (as I am sure they do) I dare affirm that they do not serve Christ in the ministry of the Gospel▪ all extraordinary offices & callings thereunto being now ceased.  SPER. 
All the Churches & learned in EUROPE give us consent and allow us for Ministers.  BAR. 
But until you approve yourselves such by the word of God it will nothing avail you.  SPER. 
Our gifts & Doctrines approve our ministry: Did you ever hear Mr. EGERTON & Mr. GARDINER?  BAR. 
You still oppose your gifts against God, & hold the faith in respect of men's persons: The men you speak of I never heard in their ministery, but I know them by their ministery to be notable Sectories & false Teachers.  SPER. 
They be men of singular gifts, & how can you give out this of them & know them not, neither ever heard them teach.  BAR. 
I am taught to know the tree by the fruit, a false Minister by his antichristian entrance, office, & administration, all which are notably found upon them & upon you all; neither will I say that the one of them bought his Benefice, or that the other hath been convinced of false Doctrines by his own auditory sundry times.  SPER. 
The first hath repent that, & you have the other but by hearsay: they are known to be learned men, & such as teach sound Doctrines.  BA●…. 
My hearsay hath better proof than your know; But how can these or any of you teach sound Doctrine sincerely in a false ministery? BALAAM, & the Pharisees, & Satan himself had & hath as great gifts & learning as they or any of you: But if we would come even to this preaching you boast of, I suppose more corrupt Teachers cannot be found in any age then these, they teaching nothing almost truly, much less sincerely.  SPER. 
I teach Christ jesus very God & very man, & him crucified, & that truly.  BAR. 
I will not press you with any Arguments drawn from your, false entrance & administration, all which undoubtedly convince that you cannot preach CHRIST sound, yet is there no heretic that holdeth not some truth: But this I affirm & will approve that you deny the whole anointing of CHRIST in his three Offices of KING, PRIEST, & PROPHET, and therefore you deny CHRIST to be come in the flesh, & cannot preach him sound; I grant indeed that you preach him crucified in your Sermons & Church, buffet●…d, scourged, cr●…wned with thorn●…s, by ●…ayling, blasph●…ming, & impri●…ning le is faithful witnesses & servants daily at all hand●…s, you preach him blindfoulded by drawing a vail over his fac●…, that the p●…ople should not see to th'end of his ministery, not one of you either Priest or people as yet knowing what belongeth to a true profession, a true Communion, a true Office, or a t●…ue entrance, much less to true administration: CHRIST crucified you all abhor, you cannot abide his cross, you will not suffer or abide by any truth, but daily seek new cavils, distinctions and ●…uasions to hide any truth which bringeth d●…nger, or to avoid the cross of CHRIST, & therefore you shall not reign with him. It were an infinite thing to reckon up the diverfitie of opinions, sects, errors that are found amongst you of the ministry, it being almost an unpossible thing to find two of you of one ●…udgment, or any one of you constant to yourselves, except it be in evil; one preaching one Doctrine in one place, & another the quite contrary in another place, y●…a some of your chief Teachers have preached p●…linodā concerning your ministery & Sacraments of your Church: But I would now know what office these men you speak of, or yourself do execute.  SPER. 
Mr. EGERTON is a Doctor, Mr. GARDINER & my s●…lf are pastors.  BAR. 
Your Church of England hath no such office as the Teacher's Office, it hath no other than University Doctors, which are not in any office, or thereby Ministers: I ween also he hath a dumb Minister one that cannot preach for his Pastor; so that he is a hireling Curate & no Christian Teacher. As for Mr. GARDINER & yourself, you be parish Parsons, & therefore cannot be held christian Pastors.  SPER. 
I deny your Argument, it followeth not because they are termed Parsons, therefore they are not Pastors.  BAR. 
Both the name & Office are diverse, therefore not the same.  SPER. 
The Parson is called in latin Rector Ecclesiae, which name properly agreeth to the Pastor.  BAR. 
Your latin name is popish, one of the names of blasphemy written upon the heads of the Beast, for CHRIST hath appointed many to the office of governing & overseeing, & not the Pastor only: And therefore this name is not proper to the Pastor.  SPER. 
The Pastor should govern the Church.  BAR. 
But the Pastor is not to govern it alone, there are others joined in Commission with him, therefore he cannot in this manner be called the rector of the Church, though he be a governor amongst the rest: But the office of a parish Parson is as greatly diverse from the office of a Pastor, as the name is, for if Mr. FOXE say true, they were first created when the Metropolitan BBs. sprung up, as Bailiffs unto them; further, I never read in the new Testament that the Pastor of a Church should be so stinted & limited by other Ministers, as you are by your Lord Bishop, his Chancell●…r, Commissary & Archdeacon; I marvel what ecclesiastical offices these men that thus rule over so many Pastors & Churches also, have.  SPER. 
Though the Parson be called rector Ecclesiae yet he doth not govern alone, there are others joined with him.  BAR. 
Who be these? I never heard of any such.  SPER. 
The Churchwardens & Sidemen etc.  BAR. 
What are these governors also? SPE. Yea.  BAR. 
To say the truth neither the one nor the other do govern but stand in most miserable & servile subjection to the BBs. & to their substitutes: or if this government should be their own (as you surmise) most Antichristian it is, & such as no true Pastors or Elders may execute in the Church of CHRIST: But are you not afeard Mr. SPERIN thus to gloze & counterfeit to cover these marked soldiers of the Beast, with the names and titles of Christ's Officers? will you set down this under your hand?  
whereupon Mr. SPERIN set down this Proposition.  
Some Pa●…sons may be Pastor's Ephe 4. Some Churchwardens & Sidemen may be Elders ●… Timoth. 4. But those that cannot preach are no Pastors, & those Churchwardens that cannot govern are no Elders.  BAR. 
Those are wonderful governors as ever I heard of, I had thought these Churchwardens had rather been the Collectors or Deacons of your Church, because they gather & dispense th'alms of your Churches. But now to your Parsons, they have a diverse and discrepant 1. Name 2. Office 3. Entrance unto their Office both in Election & Ordination, 4. Administration, 5. maintenance or living: For all which reasons severed, & joined none of your Parsons can be true Pastors.  SPER. 
The name of Pastor is of no moment, for they are also called Governors & Overseers, aswell as Pastors.  BAR. 
But this name of Pastor is only peculiar & doth distinguish the office of the Pastor from others, & so doth neither the name of Elder nor Overseer, but being in Counsel & government common to him with others, are also given indifferently to him with other: Therefore this name of Pastor is of great monent & can neither be altered nor spared, as whereby the wisdom of GOD doth both distinguish & express the Office, therefore if you take away or change this name, you also take away & change the Office, no other name that can be devised by man sufficing to distinguish & express this Office, as this doth.  
Thus the time not suffering to follow or urge the other points alleged against this Office, we for this time ceased; Mr. SPERIN making promise to come again, and if he could to bring some other with him.   

The sum of a Conference had between Mr. SPERIN & Mr. EGERTON of th'one side▪ And HENRY BARROW & JOHN GREENWOOD of th'other side in their Chamber where they were kept close Prisoners in the Fleet, upon the 20. of the 3. month 1590.  
Mr. SPERIN coming before Mr. EGERTON more than half an hour, & not being certain of M. EGERTONS' coming, they not staying thereupon, strait ways entered speech.  SPER. 
I would know the causes of your forsaking our Church.  BAR. 
Why, have you forgot all our last Conference? I than showed you many causes.  SPER. 
I took it, because all the people were received into the Church at the beginning of her majesties reign (without any proof of their Faith or due order) was the cause.  BAR. 
The unworthiness & confusion of the people, together with  BAR. 
the unlawful ministry, ministration & ecclesiastical government now exercised amongst you, were assedged for causes.  SPER. 
But neither our ministry or people are such now.  BAR. 
All the land in the beginning of her majesties reign were compelled & received into your Church in one day from open Apostasy & gross Idolatry, without the preaching of the Gospel going before, this self same ministry set over them, & Sacraments administered unto them, in this estate wherein they are now found & remain.  SPER. 
I know not what then was done, I was but. 8. years old, neither suppose I that you can remember it: Therefore I will no●… meddle therewith.  BAR. 
I reason from the first gathering & planting of your Church, which I proo●…e unto you to be unlawful, & contrary to Christ's Testament: For it was never read there, that any Church hath been gathered & planted by civil force & without the preaching of the Gospel going before; or that all so suddenly & confusedly were received into the Church.  SPER. 
I will not justify their doings then: But now I affirm all my people to profess.  BAR. 
How should they profess, when they stand in the same estate & transgression they then did?  SPER. 
I deny that: They which were then vnbele●…uers do now believe.  BAR. 
That can not be.  GREN. 
But before you proceed further, it is necessary that Mr. SPERIN either justify or disallow of the gathering of the Church then.  SPER. 
I will not justify that gathering by constraint.  GREN. 
Set down that under your hand.  SPER. 
What need that, you hear I say it.  BAR. 
But for the better proceeding set it down under your hand, or else defend it, and we will disprove it.  
Where upon Mr. SPERIN set down this Propositi●…n under his hand.  SPER. 
I do not maintain that Church that was gathered, & as it was from papisterie compelled to b●… protestants in the beginning of her majesties Reign.  BAR. 
I will prove that your Parishes still remain in the same estate, as they were then gathered▪  
Your Parishes now consist of the same people & their seed, as yet no separation made, still remaining under the same Ministry, worship, Sacraments, Courts, Ecclesiastical government: Therefore they are in the same estate.  SPER. 
Most of these that at the beginning of her Mats. Reign were received into the Church, are dead & changed, & new come into their rooms.  GREN. 
You have them or their seed.  SPER. 
Once in twelve years lightly the most part of the Parish changeth, as I by experience know, some going, & others coming.  GREN. 
But none come but such as then were received, or their seed: For they go but from one parish to another, all the Parishes being one body, one Church.  BAR. 
I would have you answer unto my former Proposition, wherein I have showed your Parishes to be in the same estate, wherein they then were planted.  SPER. 
I deny that: For neither all the people remain, neither are they the same people, for they were then vnbelee●…ers, and now they that remain believe or profess the faith, now they willingly profess faith, which then constrainedly confessed faith.  BAR. 
This distinction of AUGSTINE will deceive you, for how should the unlawful & ungodly actions of any past, be justified by his faith following: Faith doth not justify but forsake transgression: Again how should they be said to have Faith, or to have left their sins, which still continued in the same confusion, disorder, false ministry, false worship, false government.  SPER. 
They do not so.  BAR. 
I will prove all this in due order. And first that you have the same people & their seed in the same confusion.  GREEN. 
All the land is now of your Church.  SPER. 
It is not so.  BAR. 
All the Queen's natural subjects that dwell in any Parish are of your Church, because every Parish is of your Church.  SPER. 
All the Queen's subjects that dwell in our parishes are not of our Church.  BAR. 
They are of the parish: Therefore of the Church.  SPER. 
There dwell many papists that are not of our Church.  BAR. 
Even those papists are of your Church: And thus I prove it.  
None but those of the Church may offer in the Church or have any communion with the Saints, or have any interest in the ministry: But the papists communicate with your Church & ●…aue interest in the ministry, in that they contribute together with the parish unto the ministry. Therefore the papists that dwell among you are of your Church.  SPER. 
Why is it not lawful for the Minister to be maintained with the goods of unbelievers.  BAR. 
unbelievers have nothing a do, neither are bound to the maintenance of the ministry: This contribution is called in the new Testament a duty & communion of the Saints, an offering & sweet odour unto God.  
But unbelievers may have no spiritual communion with the Saints neither may offer with them in the Church, neither have interest or any thing to do with the ministry.  
Therefore may not be bound, nor received to contribute unto the maintenance of the ministry.  SPER. 
I deny that.  BAR. 
Why, it is proved by all these reasons. Further it is expressly forbidden. Levit. 22. 25. that the Priest might not receive any manner of offering, were it never so perfect at the hand of a stranger: Therefore much less may the Minister of Christ.  
Mr. Sperin in reading the text would give no judgement of it, until he had further considered thereof.  BAR. 
I will prove it by a necessary reason unto you. None that was not a jew, or come unto the faith might enter into the Temple, much less contribute or offer in the Temple.  
At this time Mr. EGERTON entered, who being set down with them & made acquainted with the present discourse, they proceeded as followeth.  
The place of Levit. being read again & further enforced thus: The oblations of the wicked are an obhomination unto the Lord. But the tithes & contributions of the papists are oblations of the wicked: Therefore they are an abomination etc.  SPER. 
But may not the minister receive any gifts of unbelievers?  BAR. 
Yea, they may receive or inherit civil things, that are given by, or belonged to unbelievers.  SPER. 
It is w●…itten. 1. Cor. 10. If the unbelievers bid you to a feast etc. eat, making no question.  GREEN. 
We doubt not but all Christians may receive in private or Civil respects, the goods or benevolence of unbelievers: But you must put difference between that contribution in communion, to & with the Church, and civil & private ben●…volence.  SPER. 
The Apostle Gala. 6. willeth all that are taught in the word to communicate of their goods unto them that teach them: But the papists are taught by us in the word: Therefore they may contribute unto us in our ministry.  GREEN. 
This place is to be understood of such as are received into, & taught in the Church, & not of all them that are without the Church, & hear the ministry thereof: The Apostle gave not this rule to them.  BAR. 
The recusant papists are not instructed of you, th'other papists are both instructed, and they & their seed admitted unto the sacraments: But all contribute & pay tithes & so are all of your Church.  SPER. 
In my Parish I admit no papists or open unworthy unto the Sacraments.  GREEN. 
Your Parish hath as yet made no separation from the papists or profane of the land: Therefore you do not separate the unworthy.  SPER. 
They are now believers, that before were unbelievers; they now profess willingly that before professed by constraint; and If there be any wicked, I put them from the Sacraments.  BAR. 
You so fix your eyes upon your own assertions, as that you give no ear to other men's reasons. How oft hath this been denied & disproved unto you: you have never as yet made any separation, but still remain in the steps & sins of your forefathers, neither have you any power to separate any from among you.  SPER. 
I have power, and do put the wicked from the Sacraments.  BAR. 
What yourself alone?  SPER. 
Yea with the consent of the Church.  BAR. 
I showed you the last day what kind of instrument your suspension & putting from the Sacraments is; you & your parish have not the power to ●…xcommunicat any.  SPER. 
This is not true. we have power, & do excommunicate.  BAR. 
It is then by the power of the BBs. & not by the power of Christ.  SPER. 
It is not by the power of the bishops, but by the power of Christ.  BAR. 
That is not so, you have neither power from Christ, nor from the bishops to excommunicate any: you have leave in your service-book to suspend from your sacrament, but not to excommunicate without the Bishop.  SPER. 
We do excommunicate without the Bishop.  BAR. 
Then your Church hath two manner of excommunications.  SPER. 
That followeth not, the bishops excommunication is but an approbation of ours.  BAR. 
That is not so, The Bishop hath power to excommunicate, when & whom he will of your Parish, & that without your privity or consent: Moreover the bishops do excommunicate by a latin writ; but if your excommunication be such, then is it Amichristian, if it be after another manner, then have you two sorts of excommunications in your Church.  SPER. 
When any deserveth to be excommunicated, than I & the Churchwardens present such to the Bishop, & he excommunicateth them.  BAR. 
Then the Bishop excommunicateth, & not you; you are but as they that gi●…e evidence & information to the judge: The Bishop is the judg.  GREEN. 
The Bishop doth not excommunicate upon your information, neither for any sin, how heinous soever. But only for not appeeringe at, or disobeying their Courts. Moreover as the Ordinary doth excommunicate so doth he absolve whom he list, without the privity of your congregation.  EGERT. SPER. 
The Bishop his excommunication is but a Civil discommunion.  BAR. GREEN. 
What, will you make the excommunication of your Church a Civil action? we never heard of any such excommunication, until Cooper & Gualther published their conceits thereof.  EGER. SPE. 
May not the Civil magistrate approveth ' excommunication of the Church.  BAR. GREN. 
Yes, but the Civil magistrate may not excommunicate any, as your bishops do; And that as you say, by virtue of the Civil authority.  SPER. 
The Bishop doth not excommunicate, he doth but approve our excommunication.  BAR. 
Why, erewhile you confefsed that you did but present your sheep to the wolf, and that the Bishop did excommunicate: & we proved that the Bishop did both excommunicate and absolve whom & when he would in your Parish, without your privities or consents: as also that your Church hath none other excommunication, then that of his.  SPE. 
We have the same excommunication that they had in the Church of Cori●…th. 1 Cor. 5.  BAR. 
You have neither such a faithful people gathered out of the world unto Christ, neither have you the power of Christ, neither do you it after that holy order of the Church of Corinth: But you are driven to run unto your Lord the Bishop, who doth it of his sole authority, by his commissary in form of a latin Writ, which you are compelled to read & publish in your parish Church: How can you call this that excommunication they had in the Church of Cori●…th.  SPER. 
We excommunicate in the name & power of Christ, as the Church of Cori●…th did.  BAR. 
That is not so, it is done in the name & power of the Bishop, & not in that manner as is expressed. 1 Cor. 5.  SPE. 
The bishops power is Civil, but this action ecclesiastical.  BAR. 
And may a Civil person execute any ecclesiastical Office or action?  GREN. 
Do you hold the bishops, their Commissaries & substitutes merely Civil, & not ecclesiastical?  SPE. 
Yea I hold them merely Civil, & not ecclesiastical.  BAR. 
Writ that, and set it down under your hand.  SPE. 
So I will: & took unto him pen & ink.  EGER. 
Why so, what need it to be written?  BAR. 
That we may the better know, whereof we reason & hold to the point.  GREN. 
This is a needful point to be set down in writing: For if the bishops & their substitutes be merely Civil than you have as yet no Church, no ministry, no Sacraments.  EGER. 
Their offices & actions are Civil as we esteem them.  SPE. 
I hold them merely Civil & not ecclesiastical, because they are constituted by the Prince, and not by Christ in his Testament.  BAR. 
Writ that, let us have it set down.  
But he delaying because of Mr. EGERTON, Mr. BAROW set down as followeth.  
The bishops Commissari●…s & th●…ir 〈◊〉 are merely ci●…ile and 〈◊〉●…asticall, b●…cause the●… are constitu●…d by the Pri●…ce, and not by 〈◊〉 in his Testament.  
This being written was read & showed unto them, but during the time of drawing them to this Proposition, & the wryti●…ge thereof, Mr. GREENWOOD enforcing the conclusions & sequel that would ensue thereof: Mr. SPERIN here began to retract his Proposition & qualify it by putting in this wo●…d (a●…) inst●…ede of (be 〈◊〉) so that now, he alloweth them, both Civil & ecclesiastical O●…ficers.  BAR. 
What, may the Bishop execute both Civil & ecclesiastical offices?  SPE●…. 
Why not?  BA●…. 
Because it is contrary to the ordinance of God, who hath appointed unto these divers & distinct offices, divers persons to execute the same.  GREEN. 
Let him that hath an office wait on his office.  SPER. 
Their Civil authority is of the Prince.  BAR. 
It is not thereby iustifi●…d, seeing it is unlawful for any ecclesiastical officer to execu●…e also a Civil office, or for one man to hau●… both an ecclesiastical & Civil office at once.  EGER. 
DAVID was both a King & a Prophet.  BA●…. 
What then?  EGER. 
He executed both a Civil & ecclesiastical office thereby.  BAR. 
That is not so.  EGER. 
A Proph●…t was an office of the Temple.  BAR. 
None but a L●…uite might be a Minister of the Temple.  SPER. 
But sundry have executed both.  BA●…. 
MOSES & SAMVEL did so for a season, but it was by express warrant from God's mouth; neither continued they so to do, neither gave they example, or may be precedents for us to do the like, without the like warrant: Make therefore your bishops either wholly Civil, or wholly ecclesiastical, let us know what to hold them?  EGER. 
They are Ministers.  BAR. 
And they are civil Magistrates, LLs of the Parliament-house, justices of peace, judges of civil causes etc.  EGER. 
Though their power be mixed, yet is it not simply unlawful.  BAR. 
By the word of GOD it is simply unlawful for any one man to execute both a civil & ecclesiastical office at once.  GREN. 
This mixture is the mystery of iniquity, & the power of the Beast.  EG●…R. 
Though they have civil Offices, yet keep they the ministery, & their ministerial actions are good▪  BAR. 
This is strange Doctrine, that one man may administer both in civil & ecclesiastical Offic●…s at once: May a civil Magistrate intermeddle with the ministry in the Church, or a Minister of the Church execute any civil Magistracie●… what a confusion were this.  EGER. 
Their ciu●…le authority doth not abolish their mi●…isteriall actions.  BAR. 
The civil Magistrates may not intermeddle with the execution of the Pastor's Office, as they do in delivering their Sacraments, no more than VZZIAH might burn incense.  EGER. 
The example doth not hold: The BBs. were Ministers before they were civil Magistrates.  BAR. 
Yet the Doctrine holdeth; That the civil Magistrate may not administer in the Church, neither 〈◊〉 man execute fuch diverse Offices.  EGER. 
Though it be vnlawf●…ll, yet their ministerial actions are not unlawful.  BAR. 
It is not lawful for a ●…inile Magistrate to 〈◊〉 in the Ch●…rch whilst he keepeth his civil office: But the BBs. are civil Magistrates, & keep & ●…xecute their civil Offices: Therefore it is not lawful for them to administer in the Church whilst they keep their civil Offices.  EGE●…. 
Your Argument is not good; You put that in the conclusion, which you should have put in the second Proposition.  BAR. 
I regard not the form. If it be unlawful for them to admi●…ister, than their ministerial actions are unlawful.  EGER. SPER. 
The Consequ●…t of the Mayor is denied.  BAR. 
It of necessity followeth: For GOD only willbe served in his Church by his own Ministers & in the ministeric, by such as he hath appointed & called thereunto, all strange ministries & their ministerial actions being an abomination unto him.  GREN. 
All their actions are accursed in the Lord●… sight that presume to offer in his Church in an office whereunto they are not called of GOD, & their ministery under the curse of KORAHS' censure Nom 16. 40.  EGER. 
The Bi●…hopps are not under that curse; For they are Ministers.  BAR. 
What, & civil Magistrates also?  SPER. 
The bishops Office, as it is given of the Prince, is civil; as they superintend divers Flock●…s & Pastors, they are ●…siasticall Officers.  BAR. 
This is a rare distinction to make one & the self same Office both civil & ecclesiastical: I never heard that th●… Office of a Bishop was civil, or of any such Office in the Church of GOD as a L. Bishop: And seeing we are entered into speech of their ministry, I would feign know what ecclesiastical Office they execute in ●…our Church.  EGER. 
They are Pastors.  BAR. 
Why each of them doth superintend & oversee divers, yea many hundredth Flocks & Pastors: These are st●…ange Pastors as ever I heard of.  EGER. 
I say not as they are bishops they are Pastors; But as they were Ministers of the Gospel before; which ministry they have not lost by being bishops.  BAR. 
You mean when they were Parish-parsons': But that Office they have foregone when they were made bishops.  EGER. 
That is not so.  BAR. 
The office of a Parson & the office of a Bishop are divers & distinct offices of your Church: one man cannot be both a Bishop & a Parson.  EGER. 
A Bishop may be a Pastor as you call it a Parson.  BAR. 
Then a ma may execute divers offices of your Church at one time: This was never heard of in the Church of CHRIST since the Apostles tyme.  EGER. 
Might not the Evangelists also execute divers offices, after the Apostles time?  BAR. 
I have not read that they did: But you hold not your Bishop's Evangelists, yet they by your saying execute divers ecclesiastical offices at one time: As to be Parsons & Lord bishops, both which are distinct & divers offices of the Church. Hold you it lawful for one man to exercise diverse offices of your Church at one time also?  EGER. 
To execute divers Offices is unlawful.  BAR. 
But the office of a Lo. Bishop & of a Parish Parson are diverse Offices of your Church which one man exerciseth: Therefore their ministerial actions in these Offices are unlawful.  EGER. 
These Offices are not so diverse to disannul their first ministry which they had when they were Preachers.  BAR. 
These Offices are so diverse as one man cannot execute them both, but he must of force do the one by his substitute: Moreover, the Office of a Lo. Bishop doth abolish & swallow up the other: For he cannot be both an Overseer of so many Churches and Pastors, & be a private peculiar Pastor of one Church too.  EGER. 
The bishops Office is but a civil addition which he joineth unto his former ministry.  BAR. 
Why you see the office of a Lo. Bishop is one of the chief ecclesiastical Offices of your Church, and this office is wholly conversant in ecclesiastical affairs.  EGER. 
They are Peers & Lords of the Parliament house.  BAR. 
Yea, but spiritual Lords by virtue of their ecclesiastical office: Therefore the Office of a Parish-Priest & of a Lo. Bishop are diverse & distinct Offices of your Church.  EGER. 
Yet are they not so diue●…se as by taking the Office of a Bishop they lose their first ministry.  BAR. 
Every ministry in the Church is belonging unto & in regard of an Office neither can be otherwise, or longer executed, then in that office to which it belongeth: But the BBs. have resigned that ecclesiastical Office where unto their first Ministry belonged: Therefore when they keep not that office they cannot keep that ministry.  EGER. 
The bishops have not resigned their fi●…st Office.  BAR. 
It is manifest that they have: For it is impossible that they should be both Superintendents over so many Churches, & execute the Pastor's Office over one Church together.  EGER. 
Though one man execute diverse Offices, his actions are not simple unlawful.  BAR. 
What a monstrous confusion & commixture of all GOD'S ordinances is made by this Doctrine of yours. GOD hath utterly forbidden any one man to manage both a civil & ecclesiastical office at once: You (notwithstanding the bishops exercise both civil and ecclesiastical authority, & execute many ecclesiastical Offices of the Church) yet in this estate would have their ministerial actions lawful.  EGER. 
Though to exercise diverse Offices be unlawful, yet it is not so unlawful as to disannul their ministriall actions.  BAR. 
I have proved that ecclesiastical ministry & ministration to be unlawful, which hath no foundation in GOD'S word: But this their mixed ministry & confused ministration hath not only no warrant in, but is found expressly contrary to the whole word & Ordinances of GOD: Therefore this their ministry & ministerial actions are simply & utterly unlawful.  EGER. 
Though a Tyrant be an unlawful Magistrate, yet may his actions in his regiment be lawful.  GREN. 
You must make difference between the usurping of a civil Office in a Commonwealth by a Tyrant, and the v●…urping of an ecclesiastical office in the Church.  BAR. 
There is no comparison betwixt the regiment of a Tyrant in a Commonwealth, and the ministration of an usurper or wre●…ched person in the Church. With the first, we which are but subjects have not to meddle, either to place or displace, but to obey in the Lord such Civil Magistrates as are set over us of the Lord. The second, namely of all ecclesiastical offices, we have the sole choice & oversight; power to create, power to depose: neither are we to suffer any unlawful ministery or ministration. But now to speak simply of the regiment of a Tyrant as considered in itself, it is altog●…ther unlawful unto himself, because he usurpeth that office by intrusion, contrary to the law of GOD, and ●…hal therefore account before the Lord.  EGER. 
But in as much as the bishops were once lawful P●…stors they cannot loose their first office & ministry; and so their ministerial actions (as preaching of the word & ministration of the Sacraments) are still lawful.  BAR. 
They many ways have forfeited their m●…nistrie & place, if so be it were so, by taking & executing two Offices, by taking other ecclesiastical offices, & those such, as they cannot execute their Pastoral Office whilst they keep them: Therefore they can be no Pastors, neither their administrations of the word & Sacraments whilst they remain in this estate, lawful.  EGER. 
They may notwithstanding these other Offices, execute their Pastoral Offices; as to preach the word, & minister the Sacraments; which are the chief things of the Pastors Office.  BAR. 
They can not do these things duly, in as much as they cannot duly attend and watch over their peculiar Flock, whilst they keep these other Offices: But I would fain know of you, when they had this true pastoral office whereof you speak so much? For surely if ever they were true Pastors they are now wondrously apostate.  EGERT. 
When they were first made Ministers.  BAR. 
Your ministery is large: Do you not mean when they were first made pari●…h-Parsons?  EGER. 
They were then Pastors, when they were such Parsons as you term them.  BAR. 
You hold then the Parson's Office to be the Pastor's Office:  EGER. 
Yea.  BAR. 
I will let pass their having many Parsonages, as also the insufficiency of sundry that profess the same: And only show in general why a Parish-Parson cannot be held a true Pastor, according to the Gospel & Testament of CHRIST.  
The Parish-Pars●…n h●…th not the (1) NAME (2) OFFICE (3) CALLING 〈◊〉 ●…is Office (4) ADMINIS●…SRATION in his Office, (5) POWER, ●…or that (6) MAINTENANCE of his living th●…●… tr●…e ●…astor 〈◊〉: Therefore a Parish-Parson cannot ●…e called or held a true Pastor.  EGER. 
The Antecedent is not true.  BAR. 
Let me prove it. First you see they have a diverse name, the one a Parish-Parson, th'other a Pastor.  EGER. 
No man of knowlegd will now call them Parsons.  BAR. 
This is the peculiar & proper name belonging to their Office: therefore reserved as dung to be cast in their faces by all have that knowledge: Yea it is an open mark to every one that hath knowledge whereby to discern them from true Pastors: ●…he true Pastor will never bear the mark & Caracte of the Beast of Antichrist.  EGER. 
The name is of no moment: What shall we call a Parson▪  BAR. 
A Parson, or Baal's P●…iest.  SPER. 
A Parson is called Rector in latin.  BAR. 
And I showed you the last day, that his Romish name was one 〈◊〉 the nam●…s of 〈◊〉 written upon the heads of the Beast.  EGER. 
The Parson hath sundry names in the Scripture: as an Elder, an Ouer●…eer, a Steward etc.  BAR. 
But none of these names do distinguish his office, as the name of Pastor doth: But if we come to their Office we shall find it as strange as the name thereof.  SPER. 
Prove that.  BAR. 
If Mr. FOXE say truly, the Parson's Office took beginning when the M●…tropolitane bishops sprung, and were as their Bailiffs: But it is the same Office that was & is executed in the Romish Church; Therefore not the Pastors Office.  EGER. 
It is not the same Office.  BAR. 
The self same: You take it as they left it, as also all the ministry you have beside: Only you put in new men in those old Offices.  EGER. 
The entrance & ministration is qui●…e changed: the priests wer●… Massing & Sacrificing Priests, prayed for the dead, worshipped saints etc. so do not we.  GREN. 
So do you also, your whole worship being changed but o●…t of Latin into English.  EGER. 
We do not so.  BAR. 
We shall hereafter have occasion to discuss these matters when w●… c●…me to handle your ministration: O●…ly w●… still find the O●…fice of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the s●…lf 〈◊〉 that then it was, and this none know better th●…n th●…y that have the gifts of the same Benefices. But I will draw an Argumen●… from some Doctrine.  
In the Church of Christ there is no ecclesiastical Office above the Pastor: But in your Church there are sondri●… ecclesiastical Off●…ces abou●… the Parson: Therefore the Parson's Office is not the Pastors Office.  EGER. 
The Apostles Office was above the Pa●…tors Office in the Church of CHRIST.  BAR. 
But that was temporary & but for a time: we reason not what was, but what now is in the Church since extraordinary Offices ceased: We read of no Office in the Church of CHRIST above the Pastor's Office: Therefore it cannot be the Office of a Parson.  EGER. 
A true Pastor may exercise his Office under another ecclesiastical Office above him.  BAR. 
God hath instituted no ecclesiastical Office above him: Therefore he may exercise his Office under n●… ecclesiastical Office abou●… him.  EGERT. 
I deny the Argument: Those things are not now simply unlawful, which at some times were lawful.  BAR. 
That is very false: All things are now simply unlawful which  GREEN. 
are forbidden in the word of GOD as the Levitical Priesthood & all extraordinary ministries now are, which yet sometimes were lawful.  EGER. 
Did not sundry Pastors & Ministers exercise their ministry under Diotr●…phes?  BAR. 
Never that I ever heard of: But if they had, should it therefore be lawful?  EGER. 
But if the Pa●…tor should execute his Office under another ecclesiastical Office, should he therefore be no true Pastor?  BAR. 
A true Pastor cannot execute under another ecclesiastical Office in the Church of CHRIST; Therefore the question is vain, the thing being unpossible.  EGER. 
But if there be any Office above him, should he therefore cease to be a Pastor?  BAR. 
What so ever ecclesiastical Office is now above the Pastor is Antichristian, neither is he a true Pastor that exerciseth his Office under such.  EGER. 
I deny that.  BAR. 
Whatsoever ecclesiastical Office is not expressed in the Testament of CHRIST is Autichristian: But there is no mention of any ecclesiastical Office to be now above the Pa●…tors Office in the Testament of CHRIST: Therefore ●…l such Offices as are above the Pastor's Office, are Antichri●…tian.  EGER. 
I deny the Mayor: All ecclesiastical offices that are above the Pastor's Office are not Antichristian.  BAR. 
You may aswell deny the whole ministry of the new Testament, & bring in any other: But thus I prove it.  
CHRIST hath left a per●…ect ministry: Therefore nothing may be added unto it. All other Ministries are Antichristian save that which CHRIST hath left in his Testament: But CHRIST hath left no such ministry as these in his Testament: Therefore etc.  EGER. 
Though CHRIST hath left a perfect ministery, yet all things that are added unto it are not ANTICHRISTIAN.  BAR. 
Yes, all new ministries are ANTICHRISTIAN & he of ANTICHRIST that executeth, standeth under or justifieth them: For he that bringeth in a new ministry taketh CHRITS Office & sitteth in his place, & is that ANTICHRIST spoken of the Apo●…tle 2. Thes. 2. and by our Saviour CHRIST Mat. 24. & all that stand under such a new devised ministry stand under ANTICHRIST.  
Mr. SPERIN here would have denied the Bishop to be ANTICHRIST: But Mr. EGERTON willed him never to deny●… that, which they had agreed upon.  BAR. 
Do you hold the faith in respect of men's persons? ●…hal no more be truth than you have agreed upon.  
These Doctrines following were holden & affirmed by Mr. EGERTON in discourse with Mr. GREENWOOD as Mr. BARROW was writing other Arguments & Assertions.  (1) eager. 
That the true Church may be without the power of CHRIST to ce●…sure & redre●…e.  GREEN. 
I never read of any such Church in the Scriptures CHRIST hath given to every Church his power to censure & redress.  EGER. 
Though we want Discipline, y●…t we have the power of CHRIST by the Sceptre of his word in Doctrine.  GREN. 
By the word Discipline you turn away the whole practice of the Gospel, neither are you governed by CHRIST his Sceptre, howsoever you may take his word in your mouth.  (2) EGER. 
That the name of a Bishop spoken of 1. Tim. 3. is on●…y peculiar unto the Pastor & Teacher; because it is said verse 2. he must be ap●… to teach.  GREN. 
Though some particular rules in that general Doctrine be only spoken of the Pastoral & Teacher's Office, yet it is ●…uident by the whole scope of the place, that there are also rules given for other Elders, which are also called BBs. in sundry places of the Scriptures.  (3) EGER. 
That no man may preach the word without an external calling.  GREEN. 
Gifts of interpretations are sufficient calling to speak of the word in the Congregation, in due order & place.  EGER. 
That is not so.  (4) EGER. 
We abstain from Excommunication, because we have no Elder●… as yet.  GREEN. 
The Church is never without the power to excommunicate.  (5) EGER. 
Our Pastors only now want some Censurers.  BAR. 
The lea●…t member of the Church that is a Communicant hath as much interest in all the censures of the Church as the Pastor, & have equal power according to the rules of the word, to censure the Pastor for error or transgression, as the Pastor hath to ●…ensure them.   

To Mr. EGERTON deliver this.  
Almighty G●…d, whose Spirit is one, and joineth in one all his elect v●…ssells, in his good time bringing them forth from dark●…es to light, gy●…e you & us ●…o be of one mind, & of one judgement in the truth, to the glory of his own name, our rejoicing in his mereyes for ever, and the present conuer●…ion of many, to the ●…bedience of CHRIST.  
seeing it hath pleased God, after our long imprisonment, once of late to send you unto us (by what means, or to what further purpose, we yet know not) to give us a beginning & ●…n entrance into the discussing of his truth, by some kind of conference: which, because it was not with that harmony that it may please God to effect, if your heart as ours be set to know his will, and to proceed by one rule, even the rule of his authentical Testament: We are moved to write unto you, rather by your modest, honest, & sober behaviour showed to us the Lords most unworthy witnesses, then for any procurement of peace to ourselves; For most of all we desire your salvation, and with all the good of many, by the measure of spiritual gifts given you, and as we trust, you will bestow them to the furtherance of his Church. Yet in your last conference, (to speak the truth) we found your spirit in no loving consent to the truth, but dangerously corrupted, or at least set to oppose with poisoned distinctions by vain philosophy, yea against that truth yourself would not insist to deny, whether to try our strength or to abuse the hearers, or for endangering yourself: Yet against all these PAUL saith we cannot any thing against the truth but for the truth. We have since often marveled we heard no more from you, or of your estate, which them was made manifest to be without promise, whiles you exercise a ministerial function under ANTICHRIST, in a false office, unto a confuse assembli●… of all sorts of people, one with the world. Whereupon, hearing no further yet of you, we thought it good, in tender care of your salvation, & for the advancement of the Lords truth, to show you, so near as our frail memories could collect, the sum of such Arguments or Positions & Answers as passed between us, having set down nothing but that, whereof we have the positions to show under writing at that present, & honest witnesses to testify our uprightness herein: And lest you should otherwise conceive, that we should some ways injury you, we have sent you a Copy to peruse; and if you make yet any other a●…swere to our Assertions, than there is contained, we freely give you liberty so to do: But chiefly the end of our writing is, to stir you up not to lean the matter thus, considering the seriousness thereof, but either yield thereunto, or procure some more large and free place & time to make our minds plain & Faith open one to another, that the truth may appear, and they that depart from the same, be known. And the same we write unto you herein, we hereby offer to all the rest of your fellow Ministers, our hearts (as the Lord knoweth) being open to all men to their good, & the glory of our GOD the father of our Lord JESUS CHRIST: only the Lord deliver us from unreasonable men, and suppress all his adversaries and opposers against his glorious truth, Amen.  
Most desirous of your fellowship in the Faith of Christ. HENRY BARROW JOHN GREENWOOD.   

To Mr. BARROW and Mr. GREENWOOD.  
The Lord jesus open o●…r eyes to ●…ee the truth, & sanctify our tongues 〈◊〉 pen●…es to declare the same.  
Ireceyved a Letter from you, & also a Conference in writing, Touching your Letter, this I answer. First for those poisoned distinctions you mention, if you had named them, I hope no poison would have appeared in them, except it had come from the contagion of your own Spirits. Secondly for vain Philosophy, if you mean thereby (for other I remember none) that help which GOD hath lent us by Logic to reason briefly and plainly, you do but as Brown●… hath done, whose brainless reasons to pro●…e the van●…tie thereof, are not only easy to be answered by other men, but also abundantly confuted by his own practice, both in speech & writing. Touching your feigned Conference, this I say. I find in it some things wanting that were spoken, many things expressed that were never spoken (no not imagined on my behalf) & most things that were spoken, perverted: Finally, I find it so full of partiality, so void of upright & true dealing, and so far out of order, that I have neither leisure, much less any lu●…t to deal with it. And if you shall proceed to give out Copies, I shallbe ready to disclaim you wheresoe●…er I come, not only for men void of piety, but even of civil honesty also. Now concerning a free conference, I have neither power nor will to perform it: my reasons I reserve 〈◊〉 further opportunity. But if you will deal with me, do this: send me under your hand some 6. or 7. (or as you think good for the number) of your chief reasons, why you refuse to come to our public assemblies briefly & plainly concluded; and I will (by the help of GOD) as my leisure shall serve, set you down my answer in the like sort under my own hand, with reasons why you ought to come. This course if you like I will deal with you as I may, otherwise I will not meddle. Written the 14. April 1590.  
Written by him, that not only desireth your good in the Lord, but also is ready by any peaceable & christian course of proceeding, to further the same.  
I: EGERTON. so I writ.   

To Mr. EGERTON.  
MOre Grace & fear of GOD unto you. This your reply unto our Letter we have received & read with little comfort, perceiving thereby even that small spark of hope (which began to appear in you) to be utterly extinct; the bellows burned the dross will not be purged from the silver, that there might proceed a vessel to the finer, so that the Founder should melt in vain, where the Lord hath not made choice of the metal. Greatly sorry we are to behold your f●…arefull estate, who not being able to approve the ministry you exercise, by the word of God, yet to your own further judgement, & the seducing of many souls, continue to plead for, & practise the same, for the fear of men & the love of the world to avoid persecution, submitting yourself, your whole church, ministry & Doctrines unto the professed enemies of CHRIST & of his gospel, such whom yourself hath confessed to be Antichristian▪ with whom you have not only sit amongst the other Commissioners in Caiaphas' house, but also by an especial ticket according to their Mandat●…, were sent out amongst the chosen band of their guard to fight against the poor persecuted witnesses of Christ, yea amongst the rest of your subornate witnesses to lay in wait against the blood of the Saints; endeavouring by the deep learning of Sa●…an to entangle them into the same counterfeit walking with yourself, as also by your Sophistical distinctions to obscure & turn away the truth, perverting & confounding all God's ordinaces, calling light darkness, & darkness light; labouring to persuade, that one man may execute both civil & ecclesiastical offices at once; Yea though he so do, yet his ministry in both of them is lawful. Likewise, that though one man executed sundry Offices of the Church at one time, yet this his ministery in them all is lawful also; Yea though the Bishop execute a strange & tyrannical ministery, never read nor heard of in the Testament of CHRIST, usurping authority over so many Churches & Pastors, possessing the very Chair of ANTICHRIST, corrupting & changing the whole ministery and Ordinances of the Gospel&c. Yet are they to be esteemed true Ministers of CHRIST, & their ministerial actions good. These & sundry other enormous & blasphemous Doctrines you strewed amongst us, and sought to confirm them by these & such like poisoned distinctions, Not simply evil: Not simply unlawful. Good in part. Though it be unlawful to execute diverse Offices, yet are not his actions therein unlawful; Though his Office he executeth in the Church be unlawful, yet are his ministerial actions lawful. Of the substance of the essen etc. without which you cannot reason, nor by the evident testimony of God's word approve your doings unto all men. Now let the christian, or but indifferent Reader, judge of the leaven & poison of these distinctions & cavils, of what spirit they proceed and by whom they are used, whither by you or by us. As for the opinions & name of Browne, there is no cause you should upbraid us therewith, he being a man with whom we had never any thing to do, neither may have in this estate of his Apostasy. He is now a member of your Church, toward whom (we think) you walk not according to CHRIST'S rule, neither yet deal brotherly with him (much less as beseemeth a guide & teacher of the Church) thus to publish & rail of your Brother Browne, without and before christian admonition & orderly censure. But having thus behaved yourself towards him that is so ●…ere unto you, we must not think it strange if you multiply your reproaches upon us, that are divided so far from you, as Zion is from Babylon. Concerning that Conference, or rather that sum of our conference, this we say. We, in all loving manner sent it unto you to peruse & correct, or to show your dislike wherein you judged it faulty; Yea we gave you free liberty, if you disliked any of those answers which you then made unto our reasons, to alter & change them as yourself upon better advise should think meet: so loath were we to give you the least cause of offence, & so desirous to have the truth further brought to light. which if you had performed with that faithfulness and modesty that beseemed you, & we expected in so high causes, than had you not gained this just blame & public infamy you now by these your dealings have brought upon yourself. But in stead of this, lo you have pronounced the whole writing which we sent, feigned; Some things there wanting which were spoken; Many things there expressed which w●…re never spoken, nor imagined by you; And most things there spoken perverted by ●…s: Finally, you found it so full of partiality, so void of upright and true dealing, and so far out of order, as you have neither leisure nor lust to deal with it. First we say, there was no cause you should expect to have every thing written, that was then spoken, both in regard of our frail & slippery memories, as also that we signified unto you our intent to be but to sum up the discourse of such chief points as were then handled, willingly passing by other impertinent and less necessary speeches. But yet, if you can call any to remembrance which may any way benefit you, or prejudice us, if you shall signify them unto us, we will most willingly insert them. For the order we will not greatly contend, because it is of little moment unto us; Yet is there cause we should aswell remember it as you, because we were both alike in the action, & had the Propositions before us, which you know were written, as the matters fell out in handling. But now touching your other charges of adding, perverting, falsifying etc. Surely if these things stood thus, great were our sin toward God & towards you; Yea woe unto ourselves, if we should walk with such festered consciences: How should we them appear before God or men with comfort? Though the measure of our gifts be small, yet God accepteth the work of his own Spirit: We need not, neither ever did defend his most plain & pure truth against the most subtle & malignant adversaries, with lies, falsifying, slandering &c. much less in this action as you chardg us. No God is witness unto our consciences, with what care & uprightness we have set down these things, being guilty to ourselves of no such crimes as you accuse us. Yea for our further clearing herein, we have set down no one point of importance which we took not in writing from your own mouths, even before your eyes, & read it in your presence, and in the hearing of sundry honest witnesses: which Propositions & witnesses, still remain to be produced in record of the truth, against you or us, wherein we depart from the same. And surely much better had you provided for your own credit, and much more impeached ours, if you had set down some particulars, wherein we had thus falsified & perverted, before you had in this manner reproached us, especially being requested thereunto by us; who, not trusting to much to our own memories, first sent our Copy unto the witnesses, then unto you, to correct or reprove what you disliked or thought amiss therein, we being always ready & most desirous to alter it, according to the truth: But you, as though there were no judge in heaven, no witnesses in earth of the things that passed betwixt us, have most boldly, without all fear, shame, or truth denied even what your own mouth uttered, accusing us as void of all uprightness & true dealing, full of partiality etc. and all to hide your own corrupt estate, & the vanity & weakness of your defences from the eyes of the world: Not being able, nor daring to produce or allege any one point in particular, which we have either falsified or perverted, lest you should be taken & reproved, as your associate Mr. SPERIN was this other day in the exceptions he took, both by these written prapositions, & by sundry ear witnesses that were present unto his face; Yea even of that heinous perilous Proposition which you now so feign would call back viz. That you had agreed amongst yourselves, that the Bishops be Antichristian. Whereunto, though you were then enforced to yield, through the inevitable power of God his word, wherewith you were pressed; Yet since, for the fear of men's faces, & to avoid per●…ecution, you have both denied the undoubted truth of God, or that ever you spoke the same, contrary to your own conscience: Yea, for the preservation of your worldly e●…timation, & for this cor●…upt dissembled peace, you hold with your LLs. the Bishops, you are not ashamed unto the rest of the vituperie wherewith you have laden us, to add these most unchristian & undeserved threats; Namely: tha●… you will disclaim us in all places wbersoever you come, not only for men void of 〈◊〉, but even of civil honesty; and all this without either fault of offence made you at any time, unless to witness unto that truth which we have seen & heard, be so grievous unto you. Alas Mr. EGERTON, what shall you gain by this? Suppose you to build or repair your credit upon or by the ruins of ours? Can you imagine to stay the course of that truth which God hath sent forth by so many witnesses which heard you? Or can you think by these vain threats to stop our mouths from testifying or publishing this or any other truth of our God unto all men, by all means? We fear not the curse causeless, neither shun we the light. Our Religion & honesty we willingly submit, both in this or in any other thing we affirm or do, to the christian judgement of all men. The further you shall proceed in this intemperate & unchristian course, the greater shallbe your own shame & judgement, when God shall return the venom and malice of your own tongue into your own bosom. In that you will neither meddle with the Conference past, nor accept of any to come, the reasons you reseru●… & keep so secret, are manifest unto all men: Namely because your deeds are evil and cannot abide the fiery trial by God's word▪ therefore seek you by all means to hide them from the light; being for nothing so sorry, as that you cannot call back that, which hath already passed you; knowing that the further you meddle with it, & the more you strive, the further and faster you shall but entangle yourself. Wherefore with one consent you & your fellow ministers, study and strive to suppress that truth you cannot resist. But he whose eyes are like a flame of fire, shall shortly discover your practices, and fight against you with that sword of his mouth. As to your offer of answer by writing unto 6. or 7. of our chiefest reasons why we refuse your public assemblies, we hold it needles to trouble you with more, until you have answered those unanswerable reasons, brought in one sentence of our former letter unto you against your own counterfei●… & antichristian ministery, which you were said to have derived from, and to exercise 1. under Antichrist: 2. In a false office 3 to a confuse assembly of all sorts of people. All which severally, & plainly, are proved unto you in that our conference with you; All which you have willingly balked, as also denied what yourself in the said Conference affirmed, and utterly refused all further conference. Wherefore we cannot be induced to think, that you have any meaning christianly & freely to discuss these points by writing; especyallie, since you could by no means be drawn to write at our being together, yea you were afraid to speak what truth you knew. But we manifestly discern this pretence to be but one of your sleights to uphold your crazed credit, & to withdraw us, & the eyes of others, from these unrecoverable breaches, as though you had some better power or skill to defend your doings by writing, then either you have done or dare yield to do by free conference of mouth. As to your disordered parish assemblies, wherein you will needs be still powered out in the error of BALAAM for wage, we have long since prou●…d them wholly Antichristian by sundry reasons, drawn from the description of the true established Church of CHRIST: which reasons, a year & a half since, were delivered unto some of your chief ministers, whereunto we never yet received any answer. Wherefore we have no more to say unto you, but to desire you & them to look to your estates, & no longer to seduce the people in the buy ways of men's devices, to their assured destruction, & your own fearful reckoning, except God give you repentance. Which grace that you may find, we will not cease ever, so long as we may, to pray for you.  
And this with unfeigned desire of your salvation HENRY BARROW JOHN GRENEWOOD, close Prisoners in the Fleet for the testimony of the truth of the Gospel of our Lord JESUS CHRIST, to whom be glory for ever.   

To Mr. BARROW & Mr. GREENWOODE.  
MOre truth and love etc. The question I named (to my remembrance) was, whether it were lawful to come to our Church assemblies, or no. But because that which you have chosen tendeth to the same end, I willingli●… accept it. You●… Arguments are three, and may be thus concluded. That ministry which is. 1. Derived from, & exercised under ANTICHRIST. 2. a false Office 3. in a confused people, is not lawful. But such is ours: Therefore our ministery is not lawful. For answer whereof, I deny your Assumption or minor Proposition, and return the same reasons upon your head thus. That ministery which is 1. Derived from & exercised under CHRIST. 2. in a true Office 3. among a faithful people, is lawful; but such is ours. ergo. Prove your Assumption & I will mine: In the mean time I trust mine affirmation shallbe as authentical as yours. Your Letter came the 2. of this 5. 〈◊〉, & I writ the 4. valet; & ●…stote sani:  
He that wisheth your conversion. I. EGERTON.   

To Mr. EGERTON.  
GRace unto you from the Father of lights, to see & yield unto the truth. Your Letter of the 4. of this 5. month we have received, & perceive thereby your Controversy (touching the truth of that Brief of our conference which we sent unto you) to be ceased. And now your speech turned back again to the question there handled amongst us; which we hoped to have then been thus far forth discussed & decided, that now you had no cause to deny or retract that, which there was enforced, & you cond●…scended unto; espeacially, without adding any one reason unto your former, or disproving any one reason brought by us; except peradventure you would have your own bare affirmation be held as authentical with us, as it is with your miserable▪ Auditory, that have no power or freedom publicly to censure or reprove any false Doctrines that you publicly deliver. But for the truth & proof of these assumptions. we still refer you (as before we referred you) to a further consideration of that sum of our said conference, with some better heed & conscience. Where you shall find these things you now den●…e sufficiently proved, & in effect wholly yielded unto by yourself. For if these your lords Archbishopps & bishops be agreed upon amongst yourselves to be that Antichrist, how should that ministery which is Derived from them, & exercised under them, be held the true ministery of Christ, except the same ministery may be derived from, and exercised under two divers heads, and those so contrary as Christ & Antichrist. Now that your whole ministery is thus derived & held of your Lords these Archbishopps & bishops, we hope we n●…ede not stand to prove, neither dare stand you to deny: not so mich for breaking the oath of your Ca●…onicall obedience, which you have sworn unto them, as lest you be therefore called before them, scilenced, deprived, imprisoned by them. As to the people to whom you stand a Minister, they were all by your own conf●…ssions, immediately from Idolatry received by constraint into your Church, without the preaching of the Gospel going before to call them to the Faith, or befor●… any Chri●…tian voluntary profession made by them in particular, to witness their Faith & true conversion: But it is manifest they all still remain in the same confusion, disorder & servile subjection together with you unto these your lords Bishops, their Courts, Officers, & Canons: Unto which people, in this estate, you for the wage & hire of BALAAM are powered forth, and administer the Sacraments to them, by your Lord Bishop his Commandment, & that in a Doctor's Office, as you pretend▪ Or else at such times flee touch, and hide yourself out of the way, withdrawing yourself from their fellowship at such solemn●… feasts as this your Easter etc. when, by the laws of your Church▪ you were to administer the Communion unto them. Thus you may see your naked denial, nor all the Cunning any of you have, will not serve to cover, mich less to cure, these Egyptian malignant ulcers that are found upon the men that have the mark of the Beast, & that worship his Image. Wherefore we still exhort you, in the name & fear of God, not any longer to strive against the pricks, or gnaw your tongue for grief, remaining imp●…nitent & hardened in your ungodly works: But rather (whil●…st grace is offered) to purge yourself through vnf●…yned repentance in that fountain which is opened to the house of DAVID for sin & for uncleanness, by forsaking your evil ways & Antichristian ministry, and now yet at length taking up your cross, to join yourself unto the holy army●… of saints, that war in all faithful and patiented manner, under the conduct of the Lamb, against all the trumpery & tyranny of Antichrist; that so you may have comfort & assurance unto your own soul. Which grace that you may find, & show; we shall not cease heartily to pray, and by all the means we may, to procure unto you. In the mean time wishing you so to far & prosper, as your soul prospereth, and as you walk according to the rule of God's word.  
HENRY BARROW JOHN GRENEWOOD Prisoners for the truth of the gospel and wi●…nesses against all Antichrists marked soldiers & proceed.  
In that you received our second Letter no 'zounds, you are to impute it to your own absence, that could no sooner be spoken withal by our Messenger, who was at your house to deliver yt you, upon the 18. of the 4. month, and at sundry other times since.  
Written this 5. day of this 5. month.   

To Mr. BARROW & Mr. GREENWOOD.  
MOre truth & love to you etc. Because your Letters received the 6. of the 5. month, hath in it as many lies, as mine to you (to my remembrance) hath lines; I think it the best course to set them before you, to move in you some remorse; except it be with you as the Prophet saith 〈◊〉 impius erubescere. 1. That 
Lies.  my bare affirmations are held authentical of my auditory: 
1.  2. That it was sufficiently proved the last conference, our BBs. 
2.  were that Antichrist: 3. That it was in effect wholly yielded unto 
3.  by me: 4 That it is agreed upon amongst ourselves, that they 
4.  be that Antichrist: 5 That I have broken my oath of Canonical 
5.  obedience: 6. That I have sworn Canonical obedience unto 
6.  the BBs. 7 That I dare not deny their authority, for fear of silence, 
7.  prison etc. 8. That the people, by our own confessions, 
8.  were all received by constraint immediately from Idolatry into our Church, without preaching of the Gospel: 9 That all the 
9  people remain still in the same disorder, confusion etc. 10 That 
10  I am powered out in the wages of BALAAM: 11 That I administer 
11  the Sacraments at the L. bishops Commandment: 12 That 
12  I hide myself at Easter: 13 That I am bound to minister the 
13  Lords Supper at Easter: 14 That I have the mark of the Beast: 
14  15 That I worship his Image. What shallbe thy reward o thou lying tongue etc. Without shallbe dogs, enchanters etc. and all that loveth & make●…h lies: If BARROW and GREENWOOD be so void of grace, what should we think of that pitiful band of seduced Schismatics. The Lord give you repentance Amen. 5 of may. 1590.  
I. EGERTON.   

To Mr. EGERTON.  
Their poison as the poison of a Serpent, As the deaf Adder s●…opping 〈◊〉 ear. Psal. 58.  
THe Lord rebuke SATAN & judge bet●…ixt us. This your reproachful Letter of the 6. of this 5. month, we received the 10. of the same month. We find it so full of vanity, vituperie, & blasphemy, as it deserveth none answer or speaking of, either in regard of the matter contained, or Author thereof, were it not for the satisfying of others to whom these our controversies may come; Wherefore as your best profess either to convince us or to defend yourself, have hitherto been the naked as●…ertions & false chardg●…s of your own mouth, without a●…ie place of Scripture or weight of reason alleged, so when we shall make ●…ut a short & sudden demonstration of the truth of these Positions which you have collected out of our Letter, and as rashly pronounced, lies; we doubt not, your present evil estate & bad dealing shall as suddenly lie open unto all men, & to yourself also if you be not of those evil men and impostors the Apostle speaketh of, that shall go forward to the worse, seducing & being seduced etc.  
Touching your cattologue of lies whereof you accuse us, we thus through the grace of God shall clear ourselves, and show the truth of as many as we acknowledge etc.  
The first Lie you charged us with, is, that your bare affirmations are held authentical of your auditory. Our answer is, That you have drawn an absolute Proposition from conditional words.  
We in our Letter reproved you for not adding Doctrine to your lypps, some proof to your assertions, saying; that except you would have your own bare affirmation to be held as authentical with us as it is with your miserable auditory, that have no power or freedom publicly to censure or reprove any false Doctrine that you publicly deliver etc. Here is in these words no untruth; be your Doctrines never so blasphemous & pernicious, your Church hath no power presently & publicly to censure you or them, but must join unto you still in prayer & Sacraments, until their Lord Ordinary redress the matter; or if he will not, they must then swallow all up, how impious soever they be. Lo●…ke for this law in the book of your advertisements in the Articles for doctrine & preaching. Now how far your Doctrines are authentical to that woeful people, that have no power in themselves to call them into question, to examine, try, or censure them, judge you; Yea how Authentical you would have your own bare affirmations esteemed, let these your 3. letters show; where you have not added one reason to prove or disprove any thing you affirm or deny, but your own bare word: But they must not be so with us, who mean to examine them by the Scriptures before we receive them. The word authentical peradventure we had not used, had not you given occasion in your former letter in these words. I trust my affirmation shallbe as authentical as yours. Which presumptuous words you would not have used, if you had not thought well of yourself, and some special authority to be given to your words; As for us, we seek no credit further than we speak according to truth; neither hold or would have any thing held authentical, beside or with the holy word of God.  
The second lie should be that it was sufficiently proved in our last Conference, 
2.  that your BBs. were that Antichrist.  
2. This we doubt not to affirm, & you cannot deny but your 
Scriptures in stead of Lies.  bishops were there proved to usurp both Civil & ecclesiastical Offices & jurisdiction; that they hold & execute divers ecclesiastical Offices of your Church at one time: as to be Doctors, 
Rom. 18. 1  Pastors, Superintendents, L. Bishops L. Archbishops; and 
Rom. 12. 6. 7. 8.  these together with their Civil Offices being judges in Courts, justices of peace, many LLs. palatine, all Lords of 
1. Cor. 12. entire  Parliament, & states of the land. That they usurp & exercise the whole power of the Church, in making ministers, in the use 
Mat. 20. 25 26.  of excommunication, hereby confounding & commingling the 
Luke. 12. 14  whole order of God, all the Ordinances both of Church and Common wealth, & inue●…t all the Ordinances of CHRIST his 
Act. 20. 29  Testament. It was there showed and proved, that they which 
Mat. 18. 17.  presume into CHRIST'S place, usurp his title and offices, are 
Dany●…l. 11. 36. etc.  those An●…ichrists or that Ant●…christ; and that your Bishops usurp CHRIST'S place, in that they take and hold his Bride unto 
2. Thes. 2. 4.  them, making the whole Church to hear their voice, & to bear 
john. 3. 29.  their yoke of their antichristian burdenous tradit●…ōs; that they 
Cam, 8. 12.  usurp CHRIST his titles, CHRIST being the only Lord, 
john. 13. 13.  Arch-cheif, high Bishop of bishops, to whom all Bishops shall 
1. P●…t. 5. 4.  
1. Cor. 8. 6.  account; And therefore these titles are upon them but the names 
Reu. 13. 1.  of blasphemy written upon the heads of that Beast; That they usurp CHRIST'S Offices, in that they take upon them to rule & oversee so many Pastors & Churches, to walk in the 
Reu. 1. 1●…. etc.  midst of the 7. golden Candlesticks, to give laws to the church etc. To be short they were proved unto you to be that Antichrist 
james 5. 12.  or those Antichrists (for we hope you will not tie the title to the 
Psal. 74.  person of one man only) in that they change & invert, yea overthrow 
Dan. 7. 24.  & cast out all the Offices & ordinacs which CHRIST hath appointed unto his Church, even the whole ministery & Testament of CHRIST; And have in place thereof brought in, & 
Reu. 9  set up their own new forged antichristian ministery of Archbishopps, L. BBs. archdeacons, commissaries, Parsons, Vickers, Curatts, Deacons or half Priests, even all the horned Clergy, romish Officers, popish Courts, and innuberable enormous 
Gal. 1. 6. 7. 8.  Canons & constitutions of Antichrist: As also their new devised 
Mat. 15. 9  public Liturgy, whereby the whole worship & ministration of your Church, yea whereby the whole word of God is stinted 
1. joh. 4. 3.  & limited to Eaves, & Days, & hours, to fasts & feasts etc. what parts & shredds thereof they will have read, what parts suppressed & cast out etc. Now if all these evident concurring peremptory marks do not manifestly prove them to be that & 
Mat. 24. 15  those Antichrists, even that abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, let him that readeth consider. And for your further assurance, let us now add unto their barbarous havoc, their daily & beastlike cruelty, tyranny, persecution & blasphemy of the truth & servants of CHRIST, and you may then (the Lord opening the eyes of your understanding) evidently 
Revel. 13. & 17.  see them to be that monstruous Beast, spoken of in the Revelation. judge now in yourself which way you could or can with all the learning you have or want, with stand these reasons, or how all the false Prophets that flow from & guard the throne of Antichrist, can find any physic or Balm for these wounds of the Beast.  
So then your 3. & 4. Lies That it should be in effect wholly yielded unto 
3. & 4.  by you 4. And agreed vppo●… a●…ongst yourselves that the BBs. are Antichrists. We hope will not prove so incredible; especially when they shallbe confirmed to your face (as they were unto your fellow Mr. SPERINS') by sundry credible ear witnesses that were present, if you continue so shameless to deny it.  
V●…to your 5. Lie That you have broken the o●…th of y●…ur Canonical obedience. 
5.  We answer that you greatly mistake the matter, we never so slandered you; we always thought you overwell observed that ungodly oath: Our words in our letter were, that we need not stand to prove that your ministery was derived from, & exercised under these BBs. neither durst you stand to deny it; not so much for breaking the oath of your Canonical obedience which you have sworn unto them, as lest you should therefore be called before them etc. Here leaving the whole estate of the BBs. who were proved by us, and confessed by you to be A●…tichristes, as also passing by the present estate of your own ministery, which is derived from & exercised under them, & therefore proved unto you to be Antichristian, unless it & you may belong unto, & stand under two divers heads, and these so contrary as CHRIST & ANTICHRIST. But all these weighty matters you willingly passed buy (after the manner of all timeserving Pharisees) and picking a quarrel at these 3. points in your 5. 6. & 7. Lies: the worst we wish you is, that you had never made, or else had now broken this ungodly oath, & that you had clearly cast of their antichristian yoke, & had delivered your soul from them, and that you durst indeed boldly speak & stand against their Antichristian authority & ungodly proceed: we are willing upon these conditions, for your so great good, to suffer more than a little reproach.  
The 6. Lie should be That you have sworn canonical obedience unto the 
6.  BBs. We find the laws of your Church to be, that none be suffered to preach or administer in your Church, or be made full Priest, except he first swear his Canonical obedience unto his Ordinary, diligently to appear at his Courts, & to obs●…rue their decrees: none may preach without the BBs. licence, or if he speak against any thing by public authority established, or by the same authority that shallbe established in your Church hereafter. These laws we find genenrall, & no particular exception to the same; therefore we see not how or why you should more be exempt from this oath, licence, laws, than the rest of your brethren & fellow Priests. Further, you do preach & administer after these orders & Canons prescribed by your LLs. the BBs therefore it is likely you have taken the same oath & licence, or that which is all one, it is most sure you stand under the same Antichristian laws & yoke.  
We will believe your 7. to be a lie when you shall have forsaken your Antichristian ministery, which you now execute etc. and speak & suffer boldly & sincerely against the BBs. authority & proceed: till than you must bear with us if we esteem you as we find you, & g●…ue no credit to your ambiguous speeches, whereby we know not whither you will or will not speak against the BBs. authority.  
This your 8. lie That the people by you●… confessions wer●… all received by constraint 
8.  immediately from Idolatry into your Church without preaching of the gospel you have half marred by the Figure of Omissio●…, in an evil conscience leaving out the one half of your matter, lest if you had justly reported it, you might have been ashamed to have called it a l●…e; seeing it should to all men appear a most manifest truth, confirmed by the times past & pres●…nt. Let us therefore help you out with the rest, that the lie may be more notorious. It followeth in our letter thus. To call them to the faith or any Christian & volun●…rie profession made by them in particular to witness their faith, & tr●…e confession. Now you have your whole tale, let us see with what face or truth you ca●… deny this: At the first planting of your Church in the beginning of our Queen Elizabeth's reign, & for your confession we have the effect of this under your f●…llow Mr. SPERIN his hand, which being read before you & reported unto you, you neither gainsay●…d it in any thing, neither would or could stand to justify their order in the first establi●…hing of your Church.  
Your 9 Lie is t●…at all the p●…ople remain still in the same disorder confusi●… etc. 
9  That little which you here also by the same figure in all evil conscience suppress, would have done better in this place then etc. and peradventure might so have cleared the point, as it might have saved both you & us from the imputation of this lie also. the words that lack are these, and servile subjection unto these your Lord bishops, their Courts, Officers & Canon's tog●…ather with you. put it now together & see if you can deny it, or ani●… part of it. It is manifest you still have and retain all the same p●…ople or their seed in the same confusion, false worship, the same Antichristian ministery & ordinances, no separation, no reformation as y●…t made: this, that our Conference, but the present estate of your C●…urch best of all showeth.  
And these things standing thus, your 10. Lie will likewise prove 
10.  a truth to your f●…rder charged. viz. that you are poured ou●… in the wages ●…f Balaam. Seing you still administer to this profane miscelyne people in this confusion, subjection for their hire etc. we need not doubt with the Apostle Jude to say that you are powered out in 
jude. 11.  the error of Balaam for wage; and with the Apostle Pe●…er, that for●…aking 
2. Pe●…. ●…. 15  saking the right way you have gone astray, following the way of Balaa●… of Boz●…r that loved the wage of iniquity, thinking that 
1. Tim. 6. 5.  g●…yne is godliness, making merchandise of the word like an hire●…ing: 
john. 10. 12. 13.  Yea it were no hard matter to prove, that you maintain the Doctrine of Balaam that taught Balac to set a trap before the 
〈◊〉. ●…. 14.  children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to Idols & to commit fornication; If your sitting in Commission in Caiaphas' hall with that old false Prophet of London, your finger in his bloody Mand●…te by name & especial ticket, your subtle conference with CHRIST'S persecuted servants in their prisons, & your continual clamours in your Pulpit, were duly scanned.  
That you do or aught to administer the Sacraments at your Lord 
11.  Bi●…hops commandment, is manifest in that you are full Priest, Every full minister of your Church, aught by the laws of your Church, & may deliver the Sacraments. That we here urdge not your Lord BBs. late edict unto all Curates or hireling Preach●…rs that were full ministers, to that effect.  
That you hide & with drew yourself from the fellowship and 
12.  Communion of your parishion●…rs & flock at your last Easter, leaving them to the ministery & conduct of your dumb Pastor, is to be proved by many witnesses, & the words of your own wife and servants unto our messenger that was to d●…lyuer our letter unto you, if you might have been then found.  
And that you & all the Curates & full Priests in England are by the 
13.  law of your Church bound to administer the Communion at Easter, peruse your Por●…uis or service-book better.  
That you have the mark of the Beast & that in the forehead is manifest; 
14.  in that the Archbishops & BBs. are proved that Antichris●… that Beast, & you stand a waged Minister under th●…m by their licence, in their kingdom.  
That you worship the Beast his Image is as manifest; in that you administer 
15.  by the constitutions & decrees of their devices, service-book or liturgy, which is set up in all your Churches; unto & by which you burn your incense, join & apply your Doctrines & preachings, else could you stand no minister in their market.  
Thus may you see all your lies returned home to their resting place to the land of Shinar even your own bosom, from whence they proceeded; thus may you see yourself taken & ensnared, even in eu●…ry word that hath come out of your mouth; thus may you s●…e, the further and more you strive against the truth, the further and faster you entoyle yourself. How much be●…er therefore were it for you to wash yourself in that fountain which was showed you zach. 13. and with the false Prophet there, to be ashamed of your vision & rough gown to deceive; acknowledging the●…e woun●…s to be given you in the house of your lovers, than thus to fulfil the words & judgements of God in yourself, in gnawing your tongue for grief, & casting the poisoned darts of your 
Reu. 16. ●…0.  virulent tongue at the innocent, even then that se●…ke your good. Take heed & be warned, you were told of these judgements, and may see how they are daily more & more fulfilled upon you; take heed you be not judged of your own mouth, & be shut out with those liars, dogs, & enchanters you mention. Your lies you see whither they are returned, & upon whom they rest: how you have barked at & bitten, not only us, but all the dear servants of God, and faithful witnesses of CHRIST, speaking out of the mouth of that Dragon, & of that Beast, & o●… that false P●…ophet, by this blasphemy in your letter appeareth. The enchanters you speak of, are those false Prophets that do their miracles before the throne of the Beast; those merchantmen, that help to deck and adorn the harlot the false Church; those mediciners, that seek to heal the wound of the Beast; those deceivers that by the effectual working or SATAN in all power, & signs, & lying wonders seduce such as receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; those Sorcerers that did all their miracles in Egypt still to keep the people of God in bondage and to hinder them from their journey toward Zion, that resist the truth as JANNES' & JAMBRES withstood MOSES, whose madness as it was made kowen unto all men, so shall yours also be. As you have alledg●…d, these Ly●…rs, Dogs, enchanters shallbe rejected in the building of Zion, shallbe shut out of the heavenly jerusalem the Church & Bride of CHRIST; but the Beast shallbe taken, & with him the false Prophet 
Reu. 19 2●….  that did these signs before him, in which he deceived them that received the mark of the Beast, and that worshipped his Image: these two shallbe cast alive into that lake of fire burning with brimstone. Be warned therefore and tremble, consider of your estate: God send you of his grace.  
This 11. of this 5. Month. HENRY BARROW JOHN GREENWOOD.  
Except your letters hereafter be ceasoned with more gravity & grace, we shallbe unwilling to receive any more of them, or at the least forbear any further to answer or follow you in this untemperate course; leaving you to the judgement of God for all the wicked sayings you shall speak against the servants & truth of CHRIST, which you cannot impunge.   

The sum of a confuse conference had the 3 of the 4 month, betwixt Mr. SPERIN & Mr. COOPER, JOHN GREENWOOD & HENRY BARROW in the Fleet.  
AT the first being set down at the Table, Mr. SPERIN used certain speech openly in way of prayer.  GREN. 
Wh●…e do you here take upon you to offer up the prayers of us all without our consent, we not being met together to that purpose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but as you know differing in judgement, & disallowing your Church & ministry.  SPER. 
I used it for myself & such as would join unto it.  GREN. 
If for yourself, it was to Pharisaical, & not to have been public: As for us, you know we would not join unto it.  SPE. 
All actions ought to be undertaken with prayer going before.  BAR. 
But prayer ought to be made with one accord, where with one mind & one mouth they may praise GOD the Father of our Lord JESUS CHRIST Rom. 15. 6.  COOP. 
CHRIST & his Apostles used prayer when they reasoned with the adversary.  BAR. 
That is not so. where find you that?  GREN. 
Your prayers & all your actions are accursed in this popish ministry you execute.  SPE. 
None will say so but such schismatics as you, that have rend yourselves from the Church.  BAR. 
It should seem you know not what either a Schismatic or the true Church is: Have we so largely disproved your church unto you at your former being here, yet you now call us schismatics, not being able to approve your Church.  SPE. 
You never could disprove our Church.  BAR. 
We proved it unto you to consist of a confuse assembly of profane people, received immediately from open Idolatry upon one day by constraint without any instruction in the word of GOD going before into your Church, this ministry, Sacra●…ēts, worship set over them, which you confessed and would not appro●…e.  SPE. 
It is not so; I never denied it to be a Church.  BAR. 
Will you now deny it? I will produce your own hand against you. And fetched a paper where indeed that Proposition was not but some Argument●…s ensuing thereupon. whereupon Mr. SPERIN began to insult. T●…e Proposition indeed being under his hand i●… an other paper, which I then remembered not  BAR. 
There are many witnesses of this assertion. But I will bring you unto it by circumstances, or convince it by proof. Did you not deny to meddle with that time, because neither you nor I were of age to remember it?  SPER. 
That is true.  GREN. 
You then confessed, (& it is manifest) that all the people were then received to the Sacraments, without any conversion by Doctrine.  BAR. 
You confessed also that this was done by force, & did not allow thereof.  SPER. 
Neither do I now allow of it, if it were so.  BAR. 
Why should you make question of so clear a thing? we proved it: as also that all your parishes now consisted of the same people & their seed, had still the same ministry, worship, government etc.  SPER. 
I then denied & still deny, that the people or ministry are the same.  COO●…. 
There is now great alteration in the Faith & knowledge of the people over was then.  GREN. 
Had you not then a ministery set over an ignorant people, and have you not the same ministery over the same people & their seed now?  SPER. COOP. 
The people are now won to the Faith.  GREN. 
But have you not still the same ministry which was then set over them in this disorder and confusion? hath there since been any separation or amendment amongst you? remain you not in the same sins still? what change can you show us?  BAR. 
Are not all still of your Church? Or what wicked man of the land is not of your Church?  SPE. 
Such schismatics as you, are not of our Church.  BAR. 
You know neither what a Church or Schismatic is: You can neither prove your Church, nor show us schismatics.  SPE. 
You are such schismatics as were in the Church of Corinth & are spoken of 1 Cor. 1. 10.  BAR. 
You read there of no schismatics in the Church of Corrin●…h, neither understand you that Scripture aright.  SPE. 
I will read the Text. Now I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord jesus Christ t●…at ye all speak one thing, and that there be no Schisms ●…mongst you: But be you kint together in on●… mind & in one judgement. Are not here schismatics spok●…n of?  BAR. 
What then?  SPE. 
Then were there schismatics.  BAR. 
It should seem you know not what a Schismatic is, that can put no difference betwixt a Sectorie & a Schismatic. The Apostle there speaketh of Sectories, & not of schismatics.  SPER. 
Th'apostle there speaketh of schismatics, such as were vai●… glorious & despised them that taught sincerely.  BAR. 
The Apostle there speaketh of Sectories, such as you are: that sought to draw the people after them, & to ha●…e them to follow, hear, & rely upon themselves: so that some would hear one man, some an other, according to their itching humours: which Sectories were Teachers in the Church; neither doth th'apostle there speak of Schismatics. A Sectorie is always one that raiseth factions in the Church; a Schismatic is he which draweth from the fellowship, and rendeth or s●…ereth himself from the Church, of whom you read H●…br. 10,  COO●…. 
The word Schism is a general word, & is read promiscuè.  BAR. 
That is true. A Sect also is contained under the word Schism●….  SP●…R. 
The Apostle useth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 therefore they were Schismat.  BAR. 
Can you not yet learn a better construction of this word Schisms in this place? Mr. COOPER hath taught you a better construction: You will not say that these were cut from the Church?  SPE. 
Why not?  GREN. 
The 11. verse of the 1. Chapter of the Epistle showeth that they were of the Church for it ha●…h been declared unto me (my brethre●…) that there are c●…ntentions amongst yo●….  BAR. 
They were famous Teach●…rs of & in the church, therefore they were not cut off, or Schismatics.  COOP. 
1 Cor. 11. It is said that there shallbe Schisms & heresies amongst them.  BAR. 
I grant well: what of that, therefore heretics & Schismatics are of the Church: You will not conclude so?  COOP. 
Schism & a Schismatic are Coniugata.  GREN. 
By your Logic & propha●…e Arts you pervert the truth of the Scriptures.  SPER. COOP. 
Logic is a help to the understanding of the Scriptures.  GREN. 
You make it a cloak for your wickedness, with shifts to torn away the truth.  BAR. 
You can put no difference betwixt a Schism & a Schismatic, the offence & the Offender.  SPE. 
There cannot be a schism, but there must be a schismatic.  BAR. 
But may not the Apostle speak of a schism where he speaketh not of a schismatic.  GREN. 
There may a schismatic arise in the Church, & yet not be of the Church: as Antichrist is said to ari●…e in the Church of GOD, yet is not of the Church. He cannot be a schismatic, until he have cut himself from the Church.  S●…E. 
Th'apostle saith there were Schisms & Schismatics amongst them, for some held of Paul, some of Apollo, some of Cephas. But Christ is not divided.  BAR. 
The Apostle there speaketh of such sectorie Teachers & people following them, as thus were led into parts & factions of such Teachers as bo●…sted of their gifts, & of the numbers they had baptised, & that followed them: Yet all this showeth, in that they were still Teachers & baptised, that they were still of the Church, & not Schismatics.  
But if you had judgement duly to consider of this place, you should find the faults there reproved to be found mich more rife upon the Teachers of your Church then they were in Corinth, where are almost so mainie Sects as Teachers.  SPER. 
It is understood of such Brownistes & schismatics as you are.  BAR. 
It is your custom to bless Christ's enemies and blaspheme Christ's servants. We are no Brownistes, we hold not our faith in respect of any mortal men, neither were we instructed by him or baptized into his name, until by such as you we were so termed. schismatics we are not: we hold communion with all Christ's servants in true Faith & Whereby: only we have separate ourselves from the false church & false ministry, which we have p●…oued you to be.  GREN. 
BROWNE is an Apostata, now one of your church; you receceive all such Apostates from Christ: we never had any thing to do with BROWNE, neither are we members of your Church.  SPER. 
You were sometime a Minister of our Church, were you not? & now are gone back.  GREN. 
Seeing this matter concerneth me, I pray you give me leave to ●…hew them what kind of Ministry I then had, & why I left it. I was sometimes indeed a Minister of your Church, after your popi●…h orders; but finding my ministry to be wholly vnlawf●…ll in the very Office, entrance and administration, by the rules of Christ's Testament, I, according to the Commandment of GOD zecha. 13. Hezr. 2. and as many places as command to abstain from ●…uill & to do that which is good, by repentance left it.  COOP. 
Because there were some corruptions in it, will you therefore forsake your whole ministry?  GREN. 
My ministry was wholly evil, both in office, entrance, & administration, so that I left it not for some corruptions. But if you can prove ●…t to be a true & lawful ministry, though with some corruptions, whereof I may repent & yet keep my ministry▪ I will willingly go out of prison with you, and labour in it again.  COOP. 
And if you can prove it wholly unlawful, I will leave my ministry & come & sit with you in prison.  BAR. 
It is not in your power so to do, repentance is the gift of God.  GREN. 
It is writt●… Reu. 16. that wh●…n the sins of the false church shallbe discouer●…d, the Ministers thereof shallbe so far from repentanc●…, as they shall g●…awe their tongues for sorrow, & blaspheme the GOD of heaven. Let us then have pen and ink, that our reasons & answers may be set down.  COOP. 
To what purpose? You seek writing buth to catch.  BAR. 
We seek writing to avoid slander, & that the truth might the better appear, when both our reasons and answers are set down.  COOP. 
It were but to spend time: I will not write:  GREN. 
Let us grow to some head: we will write though you will not. Let me show you my Ministry that I had in your Church I pray you. I was first made Deacon by the Bishop of London, to no peculiar Congregation: afterward made full Priest by the B. of Lyncolne, you know after what a popish order.  COOP. 
Because there might be some defaults in your entrance, do you therefore think all your ministry unlawful?  GREN. 
If I had no true entrance unto the ministry, & yet should exercise a ministery, I were in the number of those whom CHRIST pronounceth thieves & murderers john. 10.  COOP. 
Though there be defaults in your entrance, your ministry may be lawful. You must prove your whole ministry unlawful.  GREN. 
My ministry was unlawful, both in the entrance, Office & administration: therefore wholly unlawful.  SPER. COOP. 
Our ministry is not wholly unlawful in the entrance, Office, & administration.  GREN. 
I will begin with mine entrance, which I thus prove to be wholly unlawful. There was no Flock called me to the ministry. therfore●… could have no lawful calling to exercise any ministry in any Office unto them.  COOP. 
You might be a Minister & exercise your ministry unto them, though you were not called by them; because you might offer your gifts unto them, & so be a Minister by an inward calling.  GREN. 
Though this be no answer to my Argument, yet let it be set down in wtiting. whereupon this Proposition was set down.  Coop. 
It may so fall out some times that a man, not being called of the Flock, may ye●… offer his ministry unto the Church; and that shallbe a 〈◊〉 calling for him to be either Pastor or Doctor, because there is an inward calling.  GREN. 
Do you hold that by an inward calling a man may exercise an Office in the Church of GOD without an outward calling thereunto? If I should hold it, I should quickly be drawn forth for an Anabaptist.  COOP. 
With these circumstances he may: As a man endued with gifts should offer them in pity & compassion unto an ignorant p●…ople.  GREN. 
But whither doth he offer himself as a minister, or as no Minister unto them?  COOP. 
He offereth himself as a Minister by an inward calling.  GREN. 
He could not offer himself as a Minister unto them, because he had neither Office nor calling unto the ministry before.  COOP. SPER. 
He may be a Minister Pastor or Teacher before he be chosen of a Flock, because he may have an inward calling.  GREN. 
No man can be an Officer in the Church, except he have a true outward calling thereunto.  COOP. 
You hold him no true minister, without he have a perfect calling.  GREN. 
I plead not for perfect outward calling, but for a true outward calling.  COOP. 
Then you grant that though there be some defaults in his outward calling, yet he may be a true Minister.  BAR. 
We are so far from looking for a Church or ministry without faults here in this life, that we affirm there can be no church or ministry here without fault.  GREN. BAR. 
But you go from the question: we reason not of a perfect, but of a true outward calling, without which there can be now no true Minister in the Church. Answer therefore directly to the Argument, either deny or affirm.  COOP. SPER. 
We will answer by distinguishing: and repeated their first Proposition. That a man by his inward calling might be received as a Minister of the people, without an outward calling.  GREN. 
●…hen you deny my Proposition That of necessity every true Minister must have a true outward calling to his Office.  SPER. 
A man may be a Minister without a true outward calling in an extraordinary time, having an inward calling.  GREN. 
The rules of CHRIST'S Testament are now perfect, & perpetual in all times: therefore there is no such extraordinary time, that any man may take upon him a ministry without a true outward calling according to the rules of the word.  SPER. 
LUTHER & CALVIN etc. were true Ministers in these extraordinary times without a true outward calling.  GREN. BAR. 
We are not now to contend about their ministry, they are now dead: will you oppose their ministry against the rules of CHRIST'S Testament? We affirm no man can be a true Minister, without a true outward calling thereunto.  COOP. 
We do affirm that there may be a ministry without a true outward calling: But by circumstances.  GREN. 
This is contrary to your former Assersion: that there might be a Minister without an outward calling at all ●…t supra. Answer therefore directly, yea or n●….  COOP. 
His offering, his gifts unto the people, & their receiving of him is some outward calling.  GREN. 
Hold you this a true & sufficient outward calling?  COOP. 
For such times as these, I hold it a true and sufficient outward calling.  BAR. 
An unbelieving people cannot call or elect a minister: But you confess the people to be such.  COOP. 
He may be a Ministe●… to the people, they accepting of him, before they be called to the faith: How else would you have them called to the faith?  GREN. 
Not by placing CHRIST'S Ministry over an vnbele●…uing people. The infidels ought to hear the word, but cannot choose a Minister  COOP. 
Thus he may be a Minister. The people, what people soe●…er, bef●…re they be called, are to take this man thus offering himself as a teacher unto them by his i●…ward calling, as a Minister in the offic●… of Pastor or Teacher.  BAR. GREN. 
May the Sacraments than be delivered to an unbelieving people?  COOP. 
Not before they be taught.  GREN. 
Is any of the flock & yet incapable of the Sacraments, or may there be a Pastor & a flock & yet no Sacraments delivered?  COOP. 
As they are instructed they are to have the Sacraments delivered unto them.  BAR. 
But all your people receive the Sacraments, all being baptized without the exception of any, either heretic, witch, or conjuror & their seed before they were instructed, & you stand ministers unto such.  SPER. 
This is but your slander: we stand ministers to no such.  BAR. 
Let the Prisons and estate of the land be searched whether the●… be no such to be found: all the land is baptized in ●…our Church, and you stand Ministers to all the land in high sacrilege.  SPER. 
I deliver the Sacraments to none, but unto such whose faith ●… know.  BAR. 
It should seem you know not what faith is, or unto whom to deliver the Sacraments: what wicked person is there in your Parish, or in the whole land, that is not baptized & received to your Sacraments?  SPER. 
You judge uncharitably of the whole land: I pray what think●… you of yourself when you were of our Church.  BAR. 
I than was as you now are, and went where I was led away unto dumb Idols by such as you are.  COOP. 
You abuse the Scripture: The Apostle there speaketh of the heathen & of stocks & stones.  SPER. 
We lead you not to Idols, neither to worship Images; these are your slanders.  BAR. 
I abuse not the place, neither slander you: We are led unto Idols when we are led unto such Ministers as you, which stand for that you are not in the Church, and are Idol Shepherds & Ministers zecha. 11. Again you lead us to open & gross Idolatry; as the worshipping of dead Saints & Angels; yea yourselves worship Images, even that Image of that Beast.  SPER. 
These are but your railings & slanders: we worship neither Angels, nor Saints, nor the Image of the Beast.  BAR. 
You give unto Angels & dead Saints in your Church & solemnly indict an Eve, a day, on the one a fast, on the other a solemn feast, with an especial worship devised of purpose unto peculiar Saints & Angels, the day proclaimed and kept holy. Call you not this Idolatry, do you not now worship saints & Angels?  SPER. 
We do not worship them though we use these ceremonies.  BAR. 
You show yourself a man without sense or shame. I purpose not at this time to meddle with your gross Idolatries, it were from the purpose & an endless work. Let me now show you how you worship the Image of the Beast. You worship & use in your worship the constitutions and devices of these Antichristian bishops, as your seruice-boke etc.  SPER. 
You speak you know not what. You know not what the Image of the Beast is.  BAR. 
Yes, I know that speaking Image of the Beast which is set up in all your Churches, even the human constitutions of all these Antichristian BBs; which and whereby, you and all your people worship. This I affirm to you & unto all the world, to be that Image of the Beast: that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  
All devices of men brought into the worship of GOD are Idols: as your ●…pochripha writings in stead of GOD'S spiritual worship.  SPER. 
That is not so; how prove you that?  BAR. 
I prove it by the second Commandment. Thou shalt no●… make to thyself any graven Image or Idol.  SPER. 
Lo, you understand not the second Commandment; It speaketh only of Stocks & stones etc.  BAR. 
See what a good Teacher you are that understand not the Law, & yet would be a Teacher of the Law. The second Commandment is not only understood of worshipping creatures, but of all manner false & devised worship, when we worship GOD after the devices of men.  SPE. 
It is not so, you understand not this Commandment.  GREN. 
CHRIST himself so expoundeth it Math. 15. you 〈◊〉 me in vain, teaching doctrines me●…s precepts.  BAR. 
You are ignorant of these Doctrines, are unworthy to be ●… Pastor: for any thing I have seen in you, you understand no Scriptures.  COOP. 
You have very shamefully perverted the place to the Corinth's. which is spoken of dumb Idols, stocks, & stones.  GREN. 
He used not the place of the Corinth's at all, but only spoke according to that Phrase. So that if his Doctrine be true the p●…ce hath no injury.  COOP. 
He used the place.  BAR. 
It is not so; I alleged not the place: but only spoke according to the phrase. We are Commanded to speak with holy words, and as the words of God.  COOP. 
Speak of your conscience whether you meant not to use the place.  BAR. 
I use not to speak against my Conscience in or for any thing. I have told you how ●… meant to use the place: Neither can it be otherwise collected from my speech. But read you never, that our Saviour Christ & his Apo●…tles have used places in the Prophets & Psalms, and otherwise applied them then they were in their Context?  COOP. 
Those the Apostle there spoke of, were the Idols of the heathen, and to the heathen people, and therefore can not be applied to us.  GREN. 
All Idols are of the same nature & in the same detestation with the Lord, whether they be blocks, or stocks, or spiritual Idols which are more subtle.  BAR. 
I have showed your Idolatry to be gross enough: as the worshipping of Saints, Angels, keeping holy Days & holy Eaves unto them, holy fasts & holy feasts. But it were a weariness to rip up your popish, jewish, heathenish ministrations.  COOP. 
These are but railing & foolish words.  GREN. 
I pray you follow them no further. Let us be no longer led away with their cavils, and by shifts from our present purpose; else we shall conclude of nothing.  BAR. 
I pray you then go to it again. For I am wearied with them, & will no more deal with such unreasonable men.  COOP. 
I can no longer stay I must be gone. And so he arose up, & would have broken of.  GREN. 
Will you openly declare that you had no purpose to edify yourselves or us? wherefore then did you come, will ●…ou conclud●… of no point of Doctrine? answer this Argument I beseech you.  
E●…ery true minister of the Church must have election, approbation & ordination, in and of a true Congregation of CHRIST. But you have not suc●…●…lection, approbation, ordination, Therefore you are ●…o true minis●…ers of CHRIST.  COOP. 
We have election, approbation, ordination, in a Christian congregation.  GREN. 
That is not true. For neither have you a people truly called & gathered unto CHRIST, neither were you chosen and ordained by the people, but by the Bishop.  BAR. 
Here must be noted your unconstancy, that agree not unto yourself. Erwhile you defen●…ed your ministry by your inward calling without any outward calling; and now you justify your outward calling. But let me not trouble you: follow your Argument.  COOP. 
I had the people's acceptation when I was made Minister.  GREN. 
The people's acceptation was but your agreement with them for you wages.  COOP. 
That is not true. I could have my wages without the people's consent by law.  GRE. 
The law alloweth a Curate but ten Pounds by year. but that will not content you▪ you must therefore compownd with the people for more.  BAR. 
You could not have the people's acceptation, when you were made minister, you had no flock then.  GREN. 
Before you had a flock Mrs. Lawson got a lycens for you from the Archbishop to preach in that Parish.  BAR. 
What office do you exercise in your Church Mr. COOPER? are you a Pastor?  COOP. 
I am no Pastor, I am a Doctor.  BAR. 
There is no such office in your Church. Every parish is but allowed his parson or vicar; endowed Curates or such Doctors are but the Parson's substitutes to help a dumb or plurified Parson.  COOP. 
We have the Doctor's office in our Church.  BAR. 
It is evident you have not.  GREN. 
You were made Minister by the B. before you came to your parish by Paul's.  COOP. 
I was made Minister to a flock.  BAR. 
That could not be, seeing you are no Parson. You were made minister to any that would hire you.  GRE. 
You are those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those wandering stars Jude speaketh of. like the Levite that ran from place to place where he might get the best wages.  COOP. SPER. 
You falsely apply the Scriptures against us. we are not those stellae Erraticae Jude speaketh of.  BAR. 
Yes, & in the error of Bala●… being powered fourth for wadge. How many parishes have you been at, running from one to an other.  SPER. COOP. 
Is it not lawful for a Minister upon some occasions to remou●… from one Congregation unto an other?  GREN. 
That Minister that forsaketh his flock is an hireling, cometh but to rob & spoil. But you both are placed in, and removed from your flock without the consent of your flock; And are silenced in your flocks by the bishops, by whom you were made Priests.  COOP. SPER. 
We had not our ministery from the B. but from a congregation  GREN. 
What congregation was that, when each of you have had so many?  SPER. COOP. 
What if we were made by a Congregation of Ministers.  GREN. 
How can that be, can there be a Pastor of Pastors, or a congregation of Pastors. You were made Ministers by the BBs. and not by any Christian congregation.  SPER. COOP. 
We had not our ministery of the BBs. but by consent of a congregation.  GREN. 
Thus I prove you had your ministery from the Bishop. By the Bishops calling you administer and by none other. Therefore.  COOP. SPER. 
We had not our ministry by the Bishops only.  GREN. 
By the Bs. callings you administer, and without the Bs. calling you cannot administer. Therefore by the Bs. calling only.  SPER. 
We have the Approbation of the congregation also.  BAR. 
You have not. Your Curates (as is said) are made Ministers i●… nubibus. without any flock. Your Parsons are nominat by the Patron, & made by the B. Thus trust upon the flock without either the knowledge, privity, approbation, or choice of the people.  SPER. 
The Patron's choice is the people's choice.  BAR. 
How can you say the Patron's choice is the peoples, when they have neither privity, consent nor assent. Be the Patron a woman, an Infant, an idiot, have he 40. benefices & those in all the pa●…ts of the land, such as he hath never seen or known, yet doth he present, & the people must accept.  SPER. 
I had the approbation of the flock before I went unto the Bishop, and was a Minister before I was at the Bishop.  BAR. 
You could not have your parsonadge before you had been a●… the B. neither be a Minister without the B. were you not a Minister before you came to your flock? answer directly.  SPER. 
I was made Minister by a Bishop before I had the approbation of the People.  BAR. 
What truth or agreement is in your speech? Even now you said your were a Minister before you came at the B. & had the approbation of your flock before. Now you say (which indeed is true) you were made Minister by the B. before you had the approbation of the people.  SPER. 
I meant the B. London. I had the approbation of my flock before I went to him.  BAR. 
We reasoned all this while of the bishops indefinitely, and not of any one B. more than of an other.  
But to what end serveth now the approbation of the people, when you are made full Minister before.  SPER. 
I was a Minister in part, but no full Minister before I had the approbation of the people.  BAR. 
See how you entangle yourself. How can you make this agree unto your second Proposition. That you were made Minister by a B. before you had the approbation of the people.  SPER. 
I hold not myself a Minister in the sight of GOD by the Bishop's ordination, Until I have the people's approbation.  BAR. 
GOD seethe & knoweth all his works from before all beginnings. GOD knoweth all that he hath appointed & set apart to the work of his ministry, even before he made them or in their cradles. So that God in his foreknowledge may ordain chosen vessels unto his ministery, which yet in the ●…ight of men are not to be held Ministers, until they have that lawful calling which GOD hath perscribed thereunto. which calling, seeing you want, you are to be held no Minister in the sight of men also. Moreover, the B. without the approbation of your flock ordained you a Minister. Now which way should you not hold yourself a Minister after their Orders: Or to what end served the ordination of the Bishop, if you were not then made Minister?  
Here Mr. COOPER hasted away & said he could no longer tarry. whereupon we ended this general conference. yet notwithstanding (the chamber Dore being locked, & no Porter near to let them out) Mr. COOPER used speech to the standers by which after followeth.  
We have omit●…ed one especial point that fell out in our Confere●…ce not perfectly remembering the due place where it should com●… in.  COOP. 
If you would not have a ministry set over the unbelieving people, how should the unbelieving people be called unto the faith.  GREN. 
We shall show you an other order to call the people to the faith according to CHRIST'S Testament. And not without warrant to set the ministry of CHRIST over an unbelieving people, to the perverting of all GOD'S ordinances, and committing of Sacrilege, having no promise of any action you do in that ●…state.  COOP. 
Which way would you then have them called, if they should not be instructed.  GREN. 
Both the Magistrate ought to compel the Infidels to hear the Doctrine of the Church, and also with the approbation of the church to send fourth meet men with gifts & graces to instruct the infidels, being as yet no ministers or officers unto them.  BAR. 
Further every Christian is bound both in his family & conversation to call others by all means he may, unto the faith.  COOP. 
What if the Church be where there is no magistrate? is there alwai●…s a magistrate?  BAR. 
Yea the Church ca●…not be without a Magistrate, neither can there be a Common wealth or estate without a Magistrate. There is always a M●…gistrate, though not always a Christian Magistrate.  COOP. 
There is not always a M●…gistrate.  BAR. 
Without a Magistrate there can be no society, no trade, no calling had.  COOP. 
T●…er hath not been always a 〈◊〉 over the Church.  GREN. 
The Church hath always been in some common wealth or other. There can be no Common wealth without a Magistrate.  COOP. 
What Magistrate was there in H●…bells time?  BAR. 
When the Church and all the world was in ADAM'S household he no doubt was a Father, a Magistrate, a teacher, a governor.  COOP. 
The●… was no Magistrate over the Church before the law.  BAR. 
That is not so. was not Mel●…hisedeck a Mag●…strate.  COOP. 
Melchisedeck was a figure of CHRIST not an ordinary King.  BAR. 
Doth not the Scripture say he was king of Salem?  GREN. 
Was not Abra●…am a Magistrate over the Church?  COOP. 
Abraham was no Magistrate.  GREN. 
He was a Magistrate over his hou●…hold, his household was then the Church.  BAR. 
Was not joseph a Magistrate think you?  COOP. 
Over the Eg●…ptians after the heathen manner.  BAR. 
Heathens ma●…e be lawful Magistrates over the Church also. But joseph was a Magistrate over the Church.  COOP. 
He was not a Magistrate over the Church.  BAR. 
He was a Magistrate over all Egypt & over all Pharaoh his servants. Bu●… the Church was then in Egypt amongst Pharaoh his servants. Therefore he was a Magistrate over the church, as plentifully appeareth in the history: his brethren acknowledged him their Lord.  GREN. 
It was so prophesied of him before, as the visions and dr●…ames Declared.  COOP. 
joseph was a figure of CHRIST.  BAR. 
What then? So were all the Kings of Iud●… therefore no Magistrates.  GREN. 
Moses also was a Civil Magistr●…te over the Church before the law.  COOP. 
He was an extraordinary Magistrate, he was not chos●…n by the people.  BAR. 
Why is every Magistrate to be chosen by the people? was not the ordinance of GOD a sufficient calling to the Magistracy▪  GREN. 
MOSES was both called of GOD, and approved his calling unto & before the people of Isr●…el.  COOP. 
MOSES was a Prophet: therefore he could be no ordinary Magistrate.  BAR. 
DAVID also & SALOMON were Prophets, yet you will not say that they were not ordinary Magistrates.  GRE. 
Every Prophet was not a Minister of the temple in the priest's office.  COOP. SPER. 
The prophets office was a ministerial office.  BAR. 
None but Levites might b●… Ministers of the Tabernacle. bu●… there were many prophets which were not of the tribe of Levi. But what is this to our purpose? was not MOSES. JOSEPH & these others civil Magistrates? Mr. COOPER will you confess your error?  COOP. 
They were no ordinary Magistrates.  BAR. 
It is evident they were civil Magistrates, & ordinary, & excellent magistrates according to the revealed will of God. But you will y●…ild unto no truth, but cavil perue●…slie against the evident Scriptures.  
Amongst mich confused speech that passed betwixt Mr. SPERIN & me HENRY BARROW. after that our conference was broken up in following his last assertion. That he held not himself a Minister by t●…e Bishops Ordination until he had the ●…pprobation of the people.  
He first confessed the BBs. ordination to be a civil constitution. 
1.   
Then that the Bishops by the Prince's Commandment may 
2.  ordain Ministers by their sole authority; Because Timo●…hi & Ti●…us did ordenie Elders alone.  
When it was alleged that Timothi & Titus did ordain them according 
3.  to the Apostles constitutions and as the Apostles themselves used to do. which always was by the free election of the flock. 1. Cor. 4. 17. Act. 1●…. 23. he said that Timothi & Titus as also the Apostles w●…re Ministers alone, without the people's election. And that the world 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉▪ Act. 14. 23. had relation unto the Apostles, that li●…ed up their hands before they laid them on; and not unto the people, that lifted up their ●…andes to signify their approbation in the election.  
He said that if ●…o b●… this Act. 14. were to be understood of the 
4.  people's election, y●…t the●… were no mor●… places to prove that the 〈◊〉 ought to choose their Ministers: Being demanded what he thought of Acts. 1. & Acts. 6. of 1. Timo●…. 3. & Titus 1. he said that Acts. 6. was but of Deacons only. and as for the other places they proved not that the people might choose their Elders. Being demanded who then were to make choice & probation of the Elders, he said that Timothi & Titus in those chapters. Being asked who now was to succeed Timothi & Ti●…us seeing they had lest no heirs apparent behind them: he said the BBs. were to choose & ordain them, who now being old and able to take no more pains, were to govern over many Churches, as they did.  
Being asked of 1. Timoth. 3. verse. 10. who was to choose and make 
●….  probation there, he confessed that the Church: being asked whether that rule of probation belonged not also, & were spoken of Elders in like manner. he said no. but only of Deacons: being asked if the wo●…d hos●…utos in the 8. verse had not relation unto the ●…ame choosers and gave not now rules unto them concerning Deacons also; And how he could by that chapter make any distinction, or show why the former rules ●…oncerning the choosing of Elders should not aswell belong unto the Church, as these concerning Deacons; or why if the former belonged unto Timothi, these also should not belong unto Timothi●…; he answered still that the Church was to choose Deacons, but not Elders.  
In further discourse of these rules for the gifts, manners, & rules 
6.  of the conversation & life of these Elders, which were such as could be known unto, & examined by none, but by the church where they lived, which showed that these rules of their Election were given ●…nto the Church, wherein Timothy was rather to help & instruct the Church, than any way to pluck away the power, authority, & interest of the church: he answered that Timothi could only best try the gifts & learning of these Ministers, and therefore the choice & approbation were given to him only. Being dem●…unded whether there were not many rules concerning sundry christian virtues of manners, conversation towards all men, of the governing of themselves, of their wives, children, families, which belonged & were Common to the teaching and governing Elders, which the Church whe●… they li●…ed, could only best judge: He said that. 1. Timothi. 3. & Titus 1. were only written & understood of P●…stors & Teachers because it is there said a B●…hop must b●… didacticos which is only peculiar unto the Pastor & Teacher. Neither would he yield though it were showed him, that the name & care of Elders were common unto all aswell the governing as teaching Elders, that most of the rules accorded unto them indifferently Acts ●…0. Further that he could show no ●…ther rules i●… the Testament of CHRIST for the election of the governing Elders then there.  
Whereupon he fell into this gross opinion also. That those Elders 
7.  & De●…cons were one office. Not understanding Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Phil. 1. 1.  
Returning again unto the BBs. being demanded by what warrant 
8.  they may usurp this inordinate power over all the churches. In process of speech he was driven to acknowledge it only to be by the Prince's authority, & not by the Testament of CHRIST: & so held them to be merely civil. Being demanded what thē●…e thought of their ministery & Sacraments which they delivered; he awhile denying that they meddled with the Sacraments or ministry; in th' end being pressed, because they in all the Parishes of their dioceses did & might at their pleasure preach and deliver the Sacraments, whether the Church & Parson would or no: yea they will make the Parson follow them with the Cup & book. yea the B. will silence, suspend, or remove what Minister or Parson he list. Here Mr.. SPERIN said that the Bishop did not, neither should administer any Sacraments in his P●…rish.  
Thus with one breath he affirming and denying, grau●…ting and retracting, I ●…old him that I would not from hencefourth 〈◊〉 more reason or Conf●…r with him until he brought a better Conscience with him.  
To conclude, seeing he neither understood the Scriptures whereof he so boldly affirmed or denied, seeing he understood not the very first Doctrines & beginnings of CHRIST, as the Doctrines of laying on of hands of Election, ordination etc. neither yet knew so mich as the offices that belonged to the Church of CHRIST, he was altogether unworthy & unfit to be a teacher or exercise any government in the Church of CHRIST: Saying that God would ere long show who were fit Ministers to draw near unto him.  
He said unto me that I meddled which more than I needed, and that I did but take a wolf by the ears. I said that he abused and understood not that Proverb, also that I did not immiscere alienae liti. That it was a matter of mine own salvation that I stood for, in refusing all subjection or Communion with ANTICHRIST & his detestable enormities; that every true Christian ought to contend for the maintenance of the faith that was once given unto the Saints. Re●…. 14. 9 etc. jude. ●….  
Mr. COOPER to shift off the answer of our Arguments wherewith he was pressed, when he perceived the issue of them, he rose from the table & broke off Conference with us, pretending haste to be gone▪ but the door being locked, he turned him to two g●…lemen which sat behind as hear●…rs of our conference, and fell ●… persuading of them whereupon I JOHN GREN▪ left Mr. BAR●…OW Mr. SPERIN in conference still, & went to give ear to Mr. COOPER, whose deceipt●… I found so pernitions & D●…ctrines so fowl that I again replied upon him, and received certain errors from his mouth, some whereof I shall hear insert with mine answer in brief, not following our whole discourse.  COOP. 
A private man ought not to make question our doubt of the 
1.  Ministers ou●…ward calling, but if he find comfort in heart by his Doctrine, he ought to approve of his ministry, what calling soever he have.  GREN. 
This is sweet Doctrine that you sow here; hath not the ●…orde given as great Commandment to avoid false prophets as to hear & obey the true messengers, and all true messengers thereupon approving their sending to all mens consciens by the euide●…t testimony of Gods revealed will, shall not the flock know their Pastor, yea choose & call their Pastor?  COOP. 
If one come into a congregation & hear one preach, he ought not to make question of the Ministers calling, or refuse his Doctrine.  GREN. 
If one come so, & before know that that preacher hath a false outward calling, yea that he hath no office in a true Church but is a false Prophet, he offendeth in hearing of him, especially in a false Church, for there is no false teacher but teach●…th some truth etc.  COOP. 
A man may be a true Minister to a people uncalled, & they are 
2.  a true Church or faithful Congregation potentia though not actu. and he may be an officer or minister unto them, they b●…ing a true Church Potentia.  GREN. 
This is such Doctrine as I never heard, that a Pastor can be ordained & exercise the duties of a Pastor, to a Church that as yet is not. But your Ministers most sacrilegiously give them the Sac●…aments also in this estate.  COOP. 
Though the Minister do deliver the Sacraments to the open 
3.  known unworthy, and so commit sacrilege, yet may a private man communicate with the Minister, & that party not be partaker of their sin.  GREN. 
If I associate a thief & Communicate in his ●…uill▪ shall I not be guilty, how mich more if I reprove not this transgression against God, & abstain from their fellowship till they repent, or by due ●…rder be censured.  BARTLET 
Here Mr. BARTLET a gentleman said it was not well we had not some more orderly Conference about these weighty causes that the truth might appea●…e.  GREN. 
You see they will not come to ani●… point of Doctrine to conclude any thing, we have long made suit to ha●…e some free Conference & never could obtain any, but are locked up close prisoners.  COOP. 
They deny our Church & ministry & therefore are not to be disputed with.  BARTL. 
Yet their reasons would be seen & convinced orderly; if they deserve it, then to suffer punishment.  GREN. 
We have often showed causes why we hold your Church & ministery to be false, and not to be joined with of any that willbe saved: as for example. you have not a people rightly gathered unto CHRIST, but stand one with the world, so that your parishes cannot be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a people called fourth 2. you have set a popish ministery over this whole ●…ande 3. you most sacrilegiously give the Sacraments in this order to all comers 4. you wor●…hipp God after men's devices and not according to CHRIST'S Testament. 5. you have not the power or freedom to redress sin by due censure, being all Subject to these wicked Courts. etc.  BARTL. 
These things would be answered & convinced.  COOP. 
We grant the things they seek are good, and many of 
5.  us have written and taught fully the same, but they seek them not by due order.  GREN. 
This is not true, you are limited what to preach, to conform your Doctrines to these Antichristian Orders, & still practise contrary i●… you writ or teach any truth. And as for us we seek to do the will of God after the same order that all true Prophets, CHRIST, & his Apostles have taught & practised for Conscience towards God: to have no fellowship with that ministery & Church which rejecteth CHRIST'S Testament, and will not be guided by him & his Ordinances.  COOP. 
We profess & teach truly all the Articles of faith. 
6.   GREN. 
The Papists teach the same Articles in general words, but neither you nor they, either teach the particular Doctrines, our practice the same truly. But both you and they deny speacial Doctrines of our justification.  COOP. 
What Article of faith do we not truli●… teach.  GREN. 
You teach that CHRIST descended into hell after his death and burial.  COOP. 
We hold it not neither teach it, many of us have taught & written against it, you therefore do us wrong to charged us with ut.  GREN. 
It is set out with privilege as an Article of your faith & received and red in all your Parishes▪  COOP. 
Though the governors of our Church set it out and we ca●… not help it, yet we are not to be charged with it.  GREN. 
Besides that you daily communicate with them that do hold it (if not read it to the people) you have subscribed to this & all other such errors in your Church of late, as I hear.  
Here Mr. COOPER was smitten with mutenes and the gentleman said, have you done so?  COOP. 
He careth not what he saith of us.  GREN. 
Will you deny it. I will bring witness to prove it unto you before to morrow at 8▪ of the clock, if you deny it.  COOP. 
I will not make you acquainted with my private actions.  GREN. 
I desire not to know your private actions, but this is a public matter of your subjection to Antichrist in your whole ministery against your conscience; but it seems your deeds are evil, and therefore you would hide them, lest they should be reproved of the light.  
The gentleman said it was thought we held some error about the lords prayer, as they call it: whereupon I showed him ou●… judgement in writing, & said that we would not continue in any error to our knowledge. and when he read thatwe said it could not be called the Lords prayer, because he never prayed it, Mr. COOPER took exception thus.  COOP. 
It may be called the Lords prayer in respect he taught it his Disciples.  GREN. 
This proveth it cannot be called the lords prayer, for Doctrine is one thing, and prayer is an other. Prayer is a pouring fourth of our hearts unto the Lord, according to our present wants; Doctrine is an instruction of others; so that it cannot be called the Lords pray●…r.  BARTLET 
But this troubleth us that you hold it not lawful to say over those words in prayer etc.  GREN. 
You see that we deny no man to use the very words, all o●… any part of them in prayer, by explication, or application, according to our present occasions, as any other Scripture.  COOP. 
What is the meaning of that explication or application.  GREN. 
Explication & application is meant thus: as when I desire that the Pope & such Ministers of popery might be suppressed I say. Do this Lord for th'advancement of thy kingdom. Let thy Kingdom come etc.  
And without this explication or application to say over the whole words containing all things that can be prayed, were but abuse of that form of prayer, seeing they that so pray cannot understand what he (that is the mo●…th of all) asketh▪ for we cannot pray for all thing at once, but that which is within the compass of our faith; otherwise it is but babbling.  COOP. 
For the whole Church it may be said over as a prayer.  GREN. 
All prayer must be of faith for such things as are within our knowledge, and as we know the Church to be in present need of, and those things to be particularly craved at GOD'S hand, else we do but babble as the papists do.  COOP. 
I grant that all our prayers ought to be of faith & expressing our present necessities. Yet ought we every day to say over the Lord's prayer for the whole Church.  GREN. 
This is popish Doctrine, & such prayer were superstitious babbling etc.   
The righteous me●… they shall judge them after the manner of 〈◊〉 and after the manner of murderers, for they are harlots and blo●…d is in their b●…nds: Ezek. 23. 45. 
Before we can judge the false Church, it is expedient that we discern the true Church, which is thus described in the scriptures.  
THe true planted and rightly established Church of CHRIST is a company of Faithful people: separated from the unbelievers and heathen of the land: gathered in the name of CHRIST, whom they truly worship, and readily obey as their only King Priest and Prophet: joined together as members of one body: ordered and governed by such officers and laws as CHRIST in his last will and Testament hath thereunto ordained: all and each one of them standing in and for their Christian liberty to practise whatsoever God hath commanded & revealed unto them in his holy word within the limits of their callings, executing the lords judgements against all trangressió and disobedience which ariseth among them, and cutting it off accordingly by the power which their lord and King CHRIST JESUS hath committed unto them.  
Now who so shall measure thighs parish assemblies as they generally stand in England, by this rule: shall evidently find them in every point so transgressing and defective: as he that hath eyes to see, or but a will to search cannot be deceived or mistake these parish Churches for the true churches of Christ.  
these parishes consisting of a company of profane & ignorant people: gathered by the sound of a Bell in the name of Antichrist: worshipping God after a false & Idolatrous manner: denying all obedience unto CHRIST in his 3. offices as their only King, Priest, and Prophet. living in disorder among themselves: standing in confusion being disordered and overruled by such laws & officers as the Pope left and not as CHRIST left, standing in bondage to the Romi●…h courts & cannons: having no power to execute the lords judgements or to redress the least sin or transgression amongst themselves: but are driven to the commissaries Courts, and so cast out SATAN by the power of SATAN.  
1. Thierry Churches consist not of a company of faithful people, 
(1) ●…ere. 31. 34. Act. 10. 43 Act. 15. 9 ●…. Cor. 1. 2.  but of a multitude of profane people: Therefore they are not the true Church.  
2. They have made no separation from the heathen of the 
(2) Isay. 65. 11▪ 12. Leu. 20. 24 jere. 15. 19 Ez●…k. 16. 25 Eze. 23. 44 I●…h. 15. 1. 9 2 Cor. 6. 14  land: but all are received & retained in the bosom of their Churches: Therefore: etc.  
3. They are not gathered in the name of Christ, but in the name of Antichrist, whom they obey as shall afterward appear. therefore etc. 
(3) Isay. 11. 10, 12. Ioh●…. 12. 32 Mat. 18. 20 1 Pet. 2. 4. 5   
4. They worship not God truly, but after a false and Idolatrous manner, as witnesseth their popish liturgy, their stinted book of ●…hier common prayer: Therefore etc. 
(4) Deu●…. 5. 8. 1 Cor. 10. 28 Revel. 21. 8   
●… They receive not, nor obey not Christ as their King, Priest, & Prophet: Therefore etc. 
(5) Deut. 18. 15 Isay. 42. 1. Mat. 17. 5. Act. 3. 22. ●…. Io. 4. 3. Mal. 1. 6. Luk. 19 27 john. 3. 3 Ezek. 16▪ 17. 19 and 44. 7. Lam. 1. 10.   
Not as their King; rejecting his government and receiving & ●…tanding under the Antichrist●…a yoke of their popi●…h government.  
Not as their Priest; sacraligiously profaning his name with ●…hier Idolatry, prostituting his blood: and making him a priest ●…nd sacrifice to Infidels and the most wicked offenders:  
Not as their Prophet; giving no obedience to his word, using 
De●…t. 13. 3. Mat: 7. 15▪ and 15. 14. Rom. 16. 17 2. Tim. 3. 5. 2 john. 10. jere. 23. 29  〈◊〉 as a mantle to cover their sin, rather than as a rule whereby 〈◊〉 direct their lives, not seeking a true ministry but maintey●…ing a false, of which sort the whole ministry of the land is ●…hich are permitted to teach in their public places, to whom ●…ey give ear.  
Thierry people are not kint together as members each of 
(6) 1 Cor. 12. 12 1 Pet. 2. 4. 5 Rom. 12. 5  other in one congregation, but both rove and go, assemble, & depart, at their pleasure when they will, whether they will, & as they will themselves; As also live in continual disorder.  
7 these parishes are not ordered and governed by such officers 
(7) Rom. 12. 8. Ephes. 4. 11. Psal. 2. 2. 3. L●…k. 19 14.  as Christ hath appointed to his Church: They have no true Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons, Releevers: But instead of thighs they remain most servilely s●…biect to the Antichristian government of their popish Archbishops, Bishops, chancellors, Archdeacon's, De●…nes, Commissaries, Doctors, Proctors, Advocates, Notaries, registers Pursuivants Cursetors, Summoners etc. And from the Apostoli●…all seat of the Bi●…hops, they receive as Antichristian & false a ministry, as their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉, hirelings, lecturers, mercenary preachers, etc. which together with this people stand bound and subject to thighs Bishops and their popish courts, of high commission, of faculties, of Arch●…es, of prerogative of delega●…s, of their Commissaries etc. Therefore, etc.  
8 Thi●…s assemblies are not ruled by th'old and new Testament, 
(8) 1 Tim. 6▪ 13 14. Ephes. 4. 11 12. 1 Cor. 14. 37 Heb. 12. 28.  but by the Cannons, Injunctions, and decrees of thi●…s Antichristian and popish courts. Therefore etc.  
9 these people stand not in and for their Christian liberty, 
(9) Io●…n. 8. 36. Gal. 4. 26 1. Pet. 2. 9  but all of them remain in bondage to thighs Egyptian and Babylonish yokes, yielding obedience unto thighs courts and their Cannons: Ther●…fore etc.  
10 these assemblies have not the power which Christ hath g●…uen 
10) Psal. 14▪ 9 9 Isay. 45. 17. Ma●…. 18. 17. Luk▪ 10. 19 1. Co●…. 5. 4. 2 Cor. 10. 4 5. 6.  unto his Church unto the world's end, and all the powers in earth and hell cannot take from them; viz. to bind & lose and to refo●…me things that are amiss, but are driven to the Commissary Courts: Therefore etc.  
11 these assemblies cast out Satan by the power of Satan, namely 
(〈◊〉) 〈◊〉. 12. 25.  by thighs Imps of Antichrist the Bishop's Commissaries and priests: Therefore they are not, & for all th●…er reasons several & io●…ned, cannot be held in any Christian judgement, the true Churches of Christ.  
Infinite were the reasons which from thighs several heads, as likewise from their particular transgressions & defaults might be drawn: But the be●… Argument to confute and cut down all this trumprie at once, is, according to the commandments of God, to preserve our bodies and souls free from thighs abominations▪ by a speedy separation and withdrawing our selves from amongst them, and to confute their l●…st and only Argument whereby they uphold their ruinous kingdom, namely their penal law, by Christian patience, and an upright & godly life.  Her●… is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of jesus. Revel. 14. 12. He that overcometh shallbe clothed in white array, and I will not put out his name out of the book of life▪ but I will confess ●…is name before my father and before his Angels. Revel. 3. 5. 
THESE Arguments were more than a year & an half since delivered to Mr. CARTWRIGHT Mr. TRAVERS Mr. CHARKE and Mr. FLOYDE which still remain upon them unanswered.  
FINIS.