A COLLECTION OF CERTAIN SLANDEROUS Articles given out by the Bishops against such faithful Christians as they now unjustly detain in their Prisons together with the answer of the said Prisoners thereunto. ALSO THE SOME OF CERTAIN CONFERENCES HAD IN THE FLEET according to the bishops bloody Mandate with two Prisoners there. 1590. Grace to the reader with wisdom from above, to discern the truth, & to walk in the same aright. THese copies of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 articles & the awnsweres thereunto, as also of these late conferences had in the Fleet, being come unto my hands, I thought no less than my duty to impart unto thee, & publish to the view of all men: 1. that: the true causes of these controvercies 2. the BBs dealing with Christ's poor servants: 3. and chiefly the truth itself might the sooner be brought to light & appear. The causes of controversy thou mayst hereby perceive to be no light or small matters concerning things indifferent or some few trifling ceremonies, (as they have long laboured to make the world believe (although even those least little trifles being brought into & thrust by way of law upon the church having no warrant in the testament of Christ ought not to be suffered for the space of an hour) but most high & weighty are these matters, concerning the whole building of the church: which is affirmed to be altogether out of order from the very foundation to the top, & not according to the pattern of Christ's testament either in the people, ministery, ministration, worship, government, order, all things out of frame, such as can neither stand before the face of Christ, neither may any of God's children join unto with promise of salvation. Now the course the BBs & their clergy have taken, to approve themselves unto all men to be no such deceitful work men their building to be no such wood, hay, stubble, hath not been to bring their works to the light, & to submit it & themselves, to be measured by the golden reed of God's word, thereby justifying themselves, convincing and persuading others: But in stead of this, they first imprison all such as make any scruple or question of their doings: yea all such as but speak against them, they shut up in close prison, there to continue without bail or mainprice, all the days of their life, except they submit & recant: Some they cast into most noisome & vile dungeons, without air, food, beds, or so much as straw to lie upon, keeping them from their wives, children, trades labours, to the utter undoing & affamishment of them, their wives, & children; Others they lad, with as many irons as they can bear; some others they a while produced to the Sessions, there indicting them as recusants upon the Statute made for the Papists; publishing them by their print with privilege Anabaptists, Heretics, Schismatics, Sectories, Donatists, Conuenticlers, seditious, turbulent; sparsing abroad through all the land certain Articles of their own devising against them, to bring them into hatred with the whole land. where unto also they have not spared their tongues, in their pulpits, where every one of their priests might forge what opinion he list against them, & confute it with the same mouth, in their name: and all this, without once producing them, to any christian trial where they might have place given them, to defend themselves, & produce their reasons, or once endeavouring to persuade or confute them by any one place of scripture; Yet not content with all this, they can take no rest in themselves, or think their kingdom safe, until they have devoured the pray they have taken, & rydd them out of the way, which will not bow down, & worship the Beast, & his image. And hereunto (having no hope to accomplish their bloody purpose, by the common law of the land, seeing they can find no occasion against these men, except it be in the law of their God) they of late contrived this new spanish conference, sending certain of their select soldiers unto them into their prisons, there by way of conference to fish from them some matter, whereupon they might accuse them to their holy fathers the BBs, who thereupon might deliver them, as convicts of heresy unto the secular powers. But blessed be God, that in these points, hath hewed their horns shorter in the beginning of her Mat. reign, not allowing that to be heresy, which they should so pronounce, but what they by the scrip. should so prove: again no heresy to be capital or punished by death, but what by the first. 4. councils, & by the scriptures, was so adjudged: else had they by this, shed more innocent & christian blood, than ever their predecessors did in this land before them. But now, as they will at no hand, be drawn unto this peaceable & christian trial, to have these matters decided & judged, by the word of God; so have they not gained that they sought by these their messengers, who (through the power of God) were entangled in their own words, not being able to spurn against the pricks, or to get such matter at the hands of these prisoners as they sought: Which, they espying, followed not the suit half so hotly as they were enjoined, coming but twice, whereas they ought to have come twice every week, at the least: At which times, how they behaved themselves, let such as were present report; and also such as read these conferences judge, what cause they have to exclaim, & accuse of heresy etc. such as call them to the testament of Christ, & would have their whole Church, & all their proceed therein, built thereupon. Which course they are so far from receiving, as they open their mouths boldly into a most high blasphemy, against God, & his tabernacle, & them that dwell in the heaven; their hands they have armed to violence, their feet are swift to shed blood, seeking by all subtle & indirect means to suppress the truth. Wherefore, so much the more is it the duty of every true servant of Christ, even by all means to publish the same; which hath caused me at this time, to exhibit these things unto the reading & view of all men; not regarding the blame that I am like to sustain at all hands therefore, so some may reap any good thereby: Yet see I not why any should justly be offended with this my doing, seeing thereby no wrong is done to any man. As for these prisoners that are named, & had to do in this business, there is no cause they should be offended, seeing they under their own hands have made relation hereof unto the Church, & have (for so doing) the practice of the Apost. Acts. 4. ver. 23. as also of hour late martyrs in Q. Mary's days, in the like cases. The credit of these write, I partly refer to the conscience of the men that written them, as they will answer the contrary before that great judge; but chiefly, to the testimony of the witnesses present & to the indifferent consideration of any man, that will compare the arguments & answers, to the present subject of the discourse. As for the other side, if nothing should be published, until their consent were had, there should never any of these things come to light. But if they think themselves injuried, let them set down the particulars wherein, or, for the further satisfying of all men, let them yet at length condescend to some christian & free conference, where both sides may have liberty to produce their reasons, a true record of them be kept, by faithful & indifferent notaries, each side be allowed to have a copy thereof, & time to consider of what is passed accordingly. Thus might the thruth, sone, & peeceablye be known, where the word of God may be judge betwixt them: from which, who so departeth, & will not be reduced, let him to his wne peril, undergo such censures, & judgements as are due to his error & sin. Only this is sure; Wisdom is justified of all her children. Farewell in the Lord. To hour Loving friends, Mr. Archdeacon Mollins, Mr. Doctor Andros, Mr. Cotton, Mr. Hutchinson, and the rest of the preachers, in & about London with in named. AFter hour hearty Commendations; I, the Bishop of London, have received order from my Lord's grace of Canterbury with the advice of both the chief justices, that conference should presently be had with these Sectories, which do forsake owr Church, and be for the same committed prisoners: for that it is intended, if by owr good & learned persuasions, they will not be reduced to conform themselves to their dutiful obedience, that they shallbe proceeded with all according to the course of the common law: Therefore, these are to will & require you, & every of you whose names are mentioned in the schedule hereunto annexed, in her Mats. name, by virtue of her high Commission, for causes ecclesiastical to us and others directed; That twice every week (at the least) you do re-repayre to those persons, & prisoners, whose names are in this tycket set down, and that you seek by all learned & discrete demeanour you may to reduce them from their errors: And for that either their conformity, or disobedience, may be more manifest, when they shall come unto their trial; Therefore we require you to set down in writing the particular days, of your going to confer with them, & likewise your censure what it is of them, as that if occasion do serve to use it, you will be sworn unto; And for that Mr Doctor Stanhope, Chancellor to me the Bishop of London, is gone out of the City, therefore we require Mr. Mollins, to send for all those several preachers, and deliver them the names of the prisoners together with the prisons whereunto they are assigned to resort, and to require them as aforesaid, to take the charge upon them, according to the trust committed unto them: and in case any of them refuse, that then you require him or them, forthwith, to repair to me to Fulham, and to certify me of their answers, before their coming: And so we bid you Farewell: the 25. of february 1589. Your Loving friends john Lond. john Herbert. Edw. Stanhope. Rich. cozen. WE have sent you herewithal a note of some part of their errors, whereby those preachers that are associate unto you, may the better consider how to deal in conference with them. A brief of the positions holden by the new sectorie of recusants. 1 THat it is not lawful to use the Lords prayer publicly in the Church, for a set form of prayer. 2 Secondly that all set & stinted prayers are mere babbling in the sight of the Lord, not to be used in public Christian assemblies. 3. Thirdly, that the public prayers & worship of God in England, as it is by law in the Church of England established, is false, superstitious, popish, and not to be used in any Christian congregation. 4. That the Church of England as it is now established is no entire member of the Church of Christ. 5. That the government of the Church of England, as it is now established, is no lawful government, nor christian, but antichristian & popish. 6. That the Sacraments of Baptism & the Lords supper, as they are administered in the Church of England, be not true Sacraments. 7. That infants ought not to be baptized, according to the form of baptism ministered now in the Church of Englad, but are rather to be kept unbaptised. 8. Many of them make scruple to affirm, that the Queen's Majesty hath supreme authority to govern the Church of England in cases ecclesiastical and to make laws ecclesiastical, not contrary to Christ's laws. 9 That the laws ecclesiastical already established, by the authority of the Queen & Realm, be not lawful. 10. That if the prince, or magistrate under her, do refuse or defer to reform, such faults as are aimsse in the Church, the people may take the reforming of them into their own hands, before or without her authority. 11. That the presbytery, or eldership, may for some causes after admonition, if there ensue not reformation excommunicate the Queen. 12. That the Church of England, as it now standeth by law established, professeth not a true Christ, nor true religion, that it hath no ministers in deed, nor Sacraments in deed. james Forester prisoners in newgate— in the Fleet Do: Bancraft john Francis prisoners in newgate— in the Fleet Robert Batkine prisoners in newgate— in the Fleet Do: Grant Thomas Freeman in the gatehowse Do: Wood Thomas Settel in the gatehowse john Debenham in the gatehowse Mr. Egerton George Collier in the Clynke john sparrow in the Clynke Do: Sallard Edmond Nicolson in the Clynke Mr. jackson Xpofer Raper in the Clynke Mr. Dunscombe Xpofer Browne in the Clynke Quintan Smyth in the Clynke Mr. Smyth Androwe Smyth in the Clynke William Blakborowe in the Clynke Mr. Phyllips Thomas Lemar in the Clynke Thomas Michael in the Clynke Do: White Anthonye Clakston in newgate William Forester in newgate Mr. Spark William Denford in newgate Roger Waterer in newgate Mr. Erlye Edeth Burrowghe in newgate William Burt in newgate Mr. Turnball George Smells in the Counter woodstreet Xpofer Bowman in the Counter woodstreet Mr. edmond's Robert jackson in Count: woodstr. Mr. Haughton Nycolas Lee in the Count: woodstr. Mr. Gylpenne Robert Andrew's in Count: woodstr. Mr. Coper William Hutton in Count: woodstr. Mr. Archpoole john Buser in Count: woodstr. Do: Hanmer john Fissher in Count: woodstr. Do: Crook William Clerk in Count: woodstr. Mr. Trypp. Richard maltusse in Count: woodstr. Mr. Morrison William fouler in Count: woodstr. Mr. crow Richard Scarlet in Count: woodstr. Mr. Browne Roger Rippine in Count woodstr. Mr. Hall john Clerk in Count woodstr. Mr. Moslee Rowland Skipworth in the Counter poultry preacher at Bridewell. George Knifton in the Counter poultry Mr. Anderson Richard Hayward in Count: poult. Mr. Gardiner john Lankaster in Count: poult. Mr. Cotton Thomas Endford in Count: poult. Mr. Cheyne Mr. Mollins Henry Barrowe in the Fleet Mr. Androwes john Greenwood in the Fleet Mr. Hutchinson Do: Saravea Daniel Studley in the Fleet Mr. Gravet Walter Lane in the Fleet Mr. Fissher Edmond Tomson in the gatehouse Mr. judson john Nicolas in the gatehouse Mr. Temple. William Dodson in the gatehowse Mr. Allison john Barrens in the gatehowse Do: Blague john Cranford in the gatehowse Mr. Herd Richard wheeler in the gatehowse Mr. Harvye Thomas Canadine— in the gatehowse A brief answer to such Articles as the bishops have given out in our name, upon which articles their Priests were sent and enjoined to Confer with us in the several prisons wherein we are by them detained. HOw charitably soever these forged positions cunningly contrived, may seem to be framed, in respect of the slanderous privileged pamphletts, heretofore dispersed through the whole land, by the enemies of Christ & suppressors of all righteousness, to bring us in contempt with all men; yet if we consider the end, & more sereously way the present drift of these BBs, their priests, and new reconciled Reformists, set a work in this business, we shall find they never went more craftily about the spilling of hour innocent blood. For they in their secret consultations having collected these articles, have also together with them constituted & commanded certain their priests, twice every week, during this Lent, to offer us private conference in way of examination, or auricular confession, to fish farther cause of accusation upon these points; whose testimony & verdict of suborned witnesses, they think to frame to their bloodthirsty appetites; we in the mean time not suffered, either to set down hour own positions, neither before equal witnesses to answer or discover their false allegations. Wherefore we thought it good (being all close prisoners) to relate unto all men that desire the truth, hour simple judgements in these doctrines, wherat they thus snarrle; we resting still most desirous of any christian or equal conference before indifferent witnesses set down & recorded, if we might obtain the same upon the dispense of hour lives; yea the God of heaven knoweth, how willing & ready we are to be instructed or corrected in any thing wherein we ere, when it shallbe showed us by the book of God. First then understand, that these accusers affirm these to be hour positions, which they have framed of their own brain, without hour knowledge, much less consent. Secondly they pronunce us new sectories, although we hold no other thing in judgement or practise, more than Christ & his Apostles have taught us in the Scriptures, and confirmed by their examples & deaths; And whether Christ's Testament in these mens antichristian laws & ordinances, fetched from Rome, or devised by themselves, be now to be holden new doctrines, let all men consider. Thirdly they call us Recusants, having neither forsaken the fellowship of the true Church or least member of Christ that walketh in the Communion of the faith, submitting himself to be guided by Christ's laws & ordinances, nor refused any truth approved unto us. Only we, according to the Commandment of God, have forsaken all spiritual fellowship with their false Church, as also the invetions & popery, yea all the execrable merchandise of that ministry & confused Babel, even that world of wickedness; Out of which the Lord draw fourth all his elected. 1. That it is not lawful to use the Lords prayer publicly in the Church for a set form of prayer. THe Lords prayers we take to be those prayers which himself offered to his father, in his own person, as he was man upon earth, according to his present occasions, & the will of his father poured fourth. The form of prayer given to his Disciples & to all posterities by the record of the Evangelists, we hold & acknowledge most holy Canonical scripture, to be used of all Churches in that use, and to that end for which hour saviour gave it: Namely, to be the perfect pattern & rule of all hour prayers, whether deprecations, supplications, thanksgiving etc. Not that we are bound to the very words saying over, or ask all things therein contained every time we pray, neither that the words red or said over by rote can be called a prayer, seeing all prayer must proceed of God's spirit from our own hearts according to hour present necessities: So that where he calleth it the Lords prayer he falsefieth the text, seeing Christ never did or could use it as his own prayer; For there is petition made for remission of sins, he never trespassing; And where he saith we hold it unlawful to be used publicly in the Church for a fet form of prayer, he slandereth us; we grant it to be the absolute, perfect, & only form of all true prayers. If any demand further, whether we may use the words thereof, either wholly as they are set down, or any sentence of them in prayers, we answer, by explication, or application, tending to edifying & expressing hour present estate, we may. The same questions may be demanded of the prayers mentioned in the Psalms & diverse other scriptures, to which we answer, that we restrain no man of the use of any parcel or sentence of Scripture, rightly applied; Yet hereupon is not justified either their five times saying over of their Pater Noster in their English morrow masses, nor yet their superstitious repetition of these words in the conclusions of their prayers after or before their sermons, when as they say they know not what to ask, and therefore pray as Christ hath taught them, (by repeating these words which they call the Lords prayer) where in they lie. 2. That all set & stinted prayers are mere babbling in the sight of the Lord, and not to be used in public Christian assemblies. FOr such forms of prayer as are Canonical, such as be commended to us by God's spirit in his word, we have already in the former Article set down the true & holy use of them to be for instruction etc. But, that any man should thrust his devices into the worship of God & christian assemblies, we wonder at their ignorant presumption, and much more that they dare be so bold as to set & stint the holy ghost, what, when, & how many words to utter in prayer; So that your annual, monthly, daily, morning and evening prayers, wherein you bind men's consciences to the prescript repetition of your own words as an offering to God, we hold them by the evidence of God's book not only a babbling, but apochriphall & Idolatrous, contrary to the second Commandment, bringing the wrath of God upon the imposers & receivers; For by these Idols you take away the whole liberty, freedom, & true use of spiritual prayer; yea you stop the springs of the living fountain which Christ hath sealed in his Church. 3. That the public prayers & worship of God in England as it is by law in the Church of England established, is false, superstitious & popish, & not so be used in any Christian Conngregation. IF Christ jesus the author & fiinisher of hour faith have constituted & confirmed the ministration of the new Testament perfect for all ages & persons how to serve him according to his will, than your liturgy drawn out of the Pope's portuis is not only Idolatrous, superstitious, & a devised worship, the inventions & precepts of men in stead of the lively graces & present gifts of his spirit whereby men call upon his name, but a bondle of infinite gross & blasphemous errors, yea even a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or counterfeit gospel, not only set above the gospel of Christ but directly instituting an other ministry & ministration then Christ hath commended & commanded to his Church till his apearing in the clouds to judgement: unto which Idol and huge Chaos of long gathered & patched errors all your ministry is sworn, whereby they renounce Christ's Testament & must administer by this liturgy, babbling over the several parcels thereof as they are limited, prescribed, & stinted from year to year, & day to day; By which liturgy or new gospel the priests of that order are approved sufficient without preaching or the guyft of teaching, and the repeating of that 〈◊〉 book accounted sufficient for all men's salvation; And if any do preach, his doctrines must be conformed to the orders hereof. The errors in this Idolatrous book contained, would not be easily repeated in half a day; yet this we are able to prove, that it suiteth & appointeth another ministry & ministration in all points, than Christ's Testament hath confirmed; not only perverting, & making of no effect the ordinances of God concerning the worship of his people, but establishing another in the place thereof, as in their prayers, Sacraments, fasts, feasts, offerings, purifications, marriages, buryals etc. manifestly appeareth. 4. That the Church of England, as it is now established, is no entire member of the Church of Christ. THe Common wealth of England, or parish assemblies, as they gennerally stand under & subject unto the aforesaid worship & ministry consisting of all sorts of unclean spirits, Atheists, papists, heretics etc. are not the true apparent established Churches of Christ, or communion of saints; and so by outward profession, they neither being gathered from the world to the obedience of Christ, neither having power or freedom to practice Christ's Testament, as the truth is revealed, are no entire member of the body of Christ. 5. That the government of the Church of England, as it is now established, is no lawful government, nor Christian, but antichristian, and popish. Having in the former articles sufficiently proved their worship & ministry to be Idolatrous, forbidden in the second Commandment, as all apochriphas & inventions of men; It is evident to all men, & confessed of hour enemies, that the ministers, laws, & other ordinancs, whereby the parish assemblies are governed, are not such as Christ appointed to his Church, of Pastor, Teacher, Elders, Deacons etc. But by such officers, Courts & Cannons as are hatched from Rome, as Archb. L. BBs etc. whose titles, office, or administrations, were never heard of in the scriptures. 6. That the Sacraments of Baptism, & the Lords Supper, as they are administered in the Church of England, be not true Sacraments. THere neither being lawful ministry to administer, nor faithful holy free people, orderly gathered unto the true true outward profession of Christ as we have before showed, and consequently no Covenant of grace, the Sacraments in these assemblies of Baptism and the Lords supper, given unto Atheists, papists, whoremasters, drunkards & their seed, delivered also after a superstitious manner according to their liturgy, and not according to the institution & rules of Christ's Testament, are no true Sacraments, nor seals with promise. 7. That infants ought not to be baptized according to the form of Baptism ministered now in the Church of England, but are rather to be kept unbaptized. NO godly Christians, separate from the false Church ought to bring their infants to these parish assemblies to be baptized into that fellowship or profession, by that ministry, or according to that order; but in the true Church to seek the Seal of the Covenant so soon as it may be had by the true ministry in the Congregation according to Christ's institution, we still affirm. 8. Many of them make scruple to affirm that the Queen's Majesty hath supreme authority to govern the Church of England in cases ecclesiastical, and to make laws ecclesiastical nos contrary to Christ laws. ALL true Christians within her majesties dominions acknowledge her Majesty to be the supreme magistrate & governess of all persons with in the Church, & without the Church, yea over all causes ecclesiastical & civil; yet always with this Caveat, that no flesh may presume to add any thing to his word, or diminish any thing from it. This we make no scruple to affirm. 9 That the laws ecclesiastical already established by the authority of the Queen & Realm, be not lawful. seeing the ecclesiastical laws, Canons, Injunctions, Articles, Courts, ministry etc. whereby these parish assemblies be governed and guided, are not derived from the book of God, or can be warranted thereby or grounded thereupon, but are the inventions of men which turn away the truth, abrogating Christ's laws & ordinances, yea seeing they are culled out (if not wholly received) from that great Antichrist his Canons, orders & devilish polecies, as most malignant oppositions against the will of God, confirmed & perfected with Christ's blood & miracles from heaven; therefore these Canons, Injunctions & articles how plausible soever they agree to the world, yet are they the execrable wares of Antichrist, Statutes of Omry, and not to be received or obeyed of any, that love the Lord jesus Christ. 10. That if the Prince or Magistrate under her do refuse or defer to reform such faults as are amiss in the Church, the people may take the reforming of them in their own hands, before or with out her authority. Neither do we look for any reformation of Babel, that is this world of confusion your false Church, neither do we take upon us to intermeddle with the Magistrates sword, but keep hour selves in thought, word, & deed, within the lymitts of hour calling in all dutiful obedience, to hour prince & superiors, for conscience towards God, and teach men both by word & example so to walk; But that all that wylbe saved must forsake the false Church, & by repentance come under Christ's obedience, to serve & worship God aright in his true Church, we hold it so true a doctrine as that there is no other means or promise of salvation; Nether may we either neglect the true service of god nor practice of any part thereof, or have fellowship with the works of darkness, though the prince should inhibit the one & command the other; no, herein we show no disobedience to magistrates, whose displeasure we must rather undergo, then fall into the hands of the everliving god who will abide no halting. For the warrant of those things we have the doctrine of the prophets, Christ, & his Apostles who teach us in this case to suffer persecution as they that fear him that can cast both soul & body into hell fire; and if the magistrate punish us for well doing we are far from resistance willingly undergoing unto death their displeasure: But god forbidden they should be guilty of hour innocent blood by such slanderous reports, without due examination of the truth: It is these wicked false prophets that trouble the land, that oppose the magistrates power against Christ, civil against spiritual, Prince against Subjects. 11. That the presbytery or Eldership may for some causes, after admonition, if there ensue not reformation, excommunicate the Queen. WE detest that Antichristian power of that person or presbiterye usurping authority over the whole Church as you & others do exercise in your popish Courts, secret Classes, devised Synods of priests as though they were Lords over the heritage. The true officers of Christ usurp no tyrannical jurisdiction over the least member, neither do any public thing without the consent of the whole Congregation, much less may the presbytery excommunicate any person by their sole power, seeing Christ hath given this power to the whole Church, and not solely to the presbytery. The Prince also if he will be held a member of Christ or of the Church, must be subject to Christ's censure in the Church. That Congregation then, whereof the prince is a member, may excommunicate the obstinate offenders therein, without exception of person read of in the whole Book of God; yea great injury to Christ his Church, and to the prince it were, to exempt them from the means of their own salvation, for which end this power is only given, & aught to be so exercised; Neither doth it derogate, diminish, or take away any part of the magistrates power or authority, except you would have no lawful magistracy that is not of the Church, or that the spiritual power of Christ in his Church should disannul the magistracy, which were devilish doctrine. 12. That the Church of England, as it now standeth by law established, professeth not a true Christ, nor true religion, that it hath not ministers indeed, nor Sacraments indeed. AS for your Religion, Church, Sacraments etc. we have before showed the forgery of them, unto which former Articles we refer the reader; Only now we must take away Balaam his stumbling block, which he layeth before men, as though we denied the true Christ, perfect God, & perfect man, of his two natures subsisting, not confounded but united etc. Yea we confess there is but one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism; and that this Christ is in all places & the same for ever, howsoever the false Church may challenge interest in the living Child. But that these parish assemblies deny him to reign over them, yea to be any true Christ unto them, by their deeds it is manifest; For do they not put the reed of the Pope's Canons in his hand, in stead of the Sceptre of his own holy word? Do they not make him a minister of an other Testament, by binding him to this their popish Apochriphas liturgy, and all their other devices made, or to be made? Do they not make him a priest, a sacrifice, to all the profane & ungodly? To conclude, do they not hereby deny and abrogate all his offices in his Church, of kingdom, priesthood & prophecy, and his whole anointing in the flesh? The brief sum of a conference, had the 9 day of the 3. month, between Mr. Hutchinson Archdeacon, & me john Greenwood prisoner in the Fleet, having been kept close now a year & an half, by the BBs sole commandment. The particular discourse whereof, were but unprofitable to relate, neither will I trust my frail memory therein. Mr. Hutchchinson said he came by virtue of Commission in her Mats. name, to confer etc. I denying to make answer to any thing, until I might have indifferent witness by, & the matter to be written down, obtained to have pen & ink, & Mr. Calthrop a gentleman & prisoner to be witness. I desired Mr. Hutch. to set down the end of his coming, & I would make answer thereunto; whereupon he written with his own hand to this effect. Memorandum, that I Mr. Huthchinson being desired by Mr. Greenwood to set down the end of my coming, show it him to be by virtue of commission, yet not to examine him, or any way to hurt him, but to confer with him about his separating of himself from the Church of England, if I might reduce him etc. I john Greenwood not desiring Mr. Hutchinson his coming, yet am most willing of any Christian conference, where it shall be free aswell to oppose as answer, & on both sides the matter to be recorded in writing. The cause that I will not otherwise reason, is, for that I have been wickedly slandered, & our cause falsely reported by Do. Some & others etc. Mr. Hutchinson then brought forth certain articles of their collections, reading them unto me; Also he showed me Do▪ Somes sclauderous book, where he turned to the positions the author had falsely affirmed to be ours. Having read his Articles, he demanded whether I approved or disallowed of them: To the Articles I said they were their own collections & not ours; And as for Mr. Somes book, it was full of lies & slanders; But I willed him, if he would confer, to set down some position under his hand, which I would assent unto, or else disprove. Still he would have me to answer some of those articles etc. But at length he willed me to set down some cause why I would not come to their Church; whereupon I wort thus. The parish assemblies in England, consist of all sorts of profane people, generally subject to this antichristian ministery, laws, Courts, worship, etc. And therefore are not the true apparent established Churches of Christ To this he first answered, that if the parish assemblies were a false Church, than every member thereof was a member of the false Church, which were dangerous for me to affirm; I desired him first to deny or affirm, the argument being general, & after infer what it pleased him; at last he made this answer in writing with his own hand. HUTCH. Your unsufficient Argument hath 2. defaults in it. 1. the sequel of your Argument is not true; 2. Your first assertion cannot be proved. GREEN: I will reply upon your second exception, as order requireth. That Your parish assemblies consist of all sorts of profane people etc. is thus proved. They were all by the blowing of her majesties trumpet at her coronai●●● in one day received without conversion of life by faith & repentance, & they & their seed ever since generally received to your sacrament without any separation from the world; Therefore they now consist of all sorts of profane. HUTCH. Most of them are now departed by death, which then were 〈◊〉 received. GREEN. Therefore I included their seed to stand in the same estate no separated from the world, & so could not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a people called out. HUTCH. I know not what you mean by separation. GREEN. You know what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 BADAL signifieth, & as light is separated from darkness, so must the Church from the profane. HUTCH. What mean you by profane? GREEN. Atheists, men without the knowledge or fear of God, together with the papists, heretics, & all other infidels. Answer I pray you directly to mine Argument. So he began with long circumstances to write, I perfectly remember not what words, but to this effect. HUTCH. Mr. Greenwood affirmeth, that because the people were converted from popery by her majesties trumpet at her coronation, therefore they consist of all sorts of profane, with certain such like words. GREEN. You falsify my former Arg. & make no sufficient or direct answer to it; Answer directly. HUTCH. The Church of England receiveth none to their sacraments but such as make public declaration of their faith; therefore consisteth not of, or alloweth any profane people etc. Hear we had much to do about declaration of faith, He said they in every assembly had a general confession of sin, & other confessions of faith, & so were not to be called profane. To which I answered the papists also had their confessions, as the Creed & Pater noster, which they repeated daily in their meetings, yet could they not for that verbal confession be accounted the true Church. Mr. Hutchinson said the popish Church was the Church, though with many corruptions; & when I demanded whither the true Church or no, he said they were the Church of God. To which I answered if it were not the true Church, it was the Church of the devil: At which they were displeased I should judge so uncharitably. Well, still I denied their saying over their service to be a true & sufficient confession to make them Christians, affirming they might teach such a verbal confession to a parrot. HUTCH. Will you judge men's hearts? even their godfathers do make a confession for their infants. GREEN. That is even such confession as the rest, a babbling over certain words without knowledge; Neither can there any confession be made for infants, but in mockery. I judge not their hearts, but I know they are not able to give account of any faith, except the verbal repeating certain words taught them by rote. But I will answer your former objection. Your parish assemblies never published their conversion of life with knowledge & fruits of repentance, seeing they had no doctrine to call them before they were all without exception received; yet are all they & their seed of your Church; therefore you receive and allow the profane etc. This Argment is not fully set down, because Mr. Hutchinson took up the paper, neither was it awnswered. Whiles I was writing this last position, Mr. Huth▪ was dilating from the 3 of Matthew, how John Baptist received them that came to his baptism with small confession, & no knowledge of their former life; yea that the Phariseiss & Saduceis were baptized etc. also the Eunuch very speedily etc. GREEN. You falsify the text, & deceive the people; where can you prove that the Phariseiss & Saduceis were baptized of John? HUTCH. hereupon Mr. Hutchinson turned to the 3 of Math, & began at the 5 verse to read Then went out to him jerusalem & all judea; & they were baptized of him, confessing their sins. GREEN. Were all judea & they of jerusalem baptized? HUTCH. No, none but they that confessed their sins were baptiz. GREEN. This maketh against yourself that none were received to Ihons' baptism but such as confessed their sins, for with you all the world is received as membres of your Church, & their seed baptized. Hear he would have made the people believe I would have none received to the Doctrine of the Church, but they which were already called, I told him he must put difference betwixt the hearing of doctrine, & receiving to be a member of the Church, & to the sacraments. He demanded whom I accounted a member of the Church. I said such as both by word & practise joined themselves (in the service of God) into the fellowship of the true Church etc. Then he demanded wherein the service of God consisted; I said in the whole obedience of his will: he yet demanded wherein chiefly etc. I answered I would not be catechised, but desired him to bring some more evident proof that the Phariseiss & Saducees were baptized. He said the whole chapter proved it; I desired him to draw some one argument from some one verse: so he began again & read the 7 verse. HUTCH. Now when he saw many of the Phariseiss & Saducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, Generations of vipers who hath forewarned you etc. Again in the 11. verse john said In deed I baptise you, unto amendment of life etc. First (saith he) they were forewarned to flee from the wrath to come 2 they came to his baptism 3 the text saith Ego baptizo vos etc. all these prove they were baptized. In that he calleth them generations of vipers, it is evident they obeyed not his forewarning, neither were baptized. 2. their coming to his baptism proveth not that they were baptised, 3 that same Ego baptizo vos is not referred to them: so that every way you have falsely made coherence in the text; whereupon he willed me to read it. GREEN: I than took the book, & breeifly collected from the whole discourse thus; jerusalem & all judea came to Ihons' ministery & all that confessed their sins were baptized; But when he-saw the Phariseiss & Saducees come unto his baptism, he called them Generations of vipers, and therefore baptized them not. For this disjunctive sentence but when he saw the Pharisees etc. showeth an exception, that he baptized not all that came to him in the wilderness, neither would he have called them generations of vipers, if he had baptised them. about these matters we had much ado, which because his next coming was only to cavil about the same, I will refer it to our second conference. It must be remembered that Mr. Hutchinson made promise to me to prove the Church of Rome the true Church when he came again. Further remember, that these matters about the Phariseiss & Saducees, baptism were not written, & these positions & awnsweres which were written, Mr. Hutch: would needs carry them away, & would neither have the witnesses to keep them, or me ever to see them or consider of them. And through I though much a do had gotten him to give them into the witnesses hands, yet so soon as I was gone & locked up, Mr. wardens man was sent to the gentleman for them, who denijng to deliver them without our consents, Mr. Hutch: sent the Archb: his pursuivant for them, which Mr. Hutch: the last day of our conference denied in the presence of many gentlemen. So that either the pursuivant Watson made a lie, or else Mr. Hutch; cannot be excused. But for that which I have written, I refer it to the witnesses for the truth thereof, yea the positions & answers to the writing wwhich Mr. Hutchinson hath kept from me. The sum of the second conference had Between M. Hutchinson, & me John Greenwood, the 17 day of the 3 month. THe 17 day of the 3 month I was sent for out of my chamber, & brought into the porters lodge in the Fleet, where I found Mr. Hutchinson, & one whose name I after understood to be D. Bright; These 2 were closely locked in that no man might hear our conference, only one of Mr. wardens men, besides my keeper came in; so soon as I was come & willed to sit down with them, M. Hutchinson began to make rehearsal of one point of our former conference, to this effect. HUTCH. Mr. Greenwood, you know the last time that I was with you, I proved unto you that John Baptist received to his baptism the Phariseiss & the Saducees, mentioned in the 3 of Math. which you did not agree unto. The proofs that I brought were many. First the text saith they came to his baptism. 2. he saith I baptize you etc. How stand you yet minded in this point, proceeding further to repeat mine answers, but I broke it of, & made reply. GREEN: It is very true that we dissented in this doctrine, & I disproved all your allegations then brought to prove that they were baptized; I will not stand now to call into question our conference then had; only for that this was not then set down in writing, I beseech you if you remain still of mind that they were baptized, set it down under your hand, & I will either assent unto it, or deny it for just cause. HUTCH. I will do so, but if you will deny it, set down your denial. GREEN: So I will when I see what you will affirm. Then Mr. Hutchinson willed the wardens man to write thus. Mr. Hutchinson saith that John Baptist did baptize the pharisees & Saducees mentioned in the 3 of Matthew, whom he calleth generations of vipers. Mr. Greenwood he saith that John Baptist did not admit the Phariseiss & Saducees whom he there calleth generations of vipers to his baptism. HUTCH. It is expressed in the text that they came to be baptized, because the text saith they came to his baptism. GREEN: I deny the sequel of your argument, & your collection from the text I affirm to be untruly gathered, for ad baptismum is not ad baptizandos, that is, to be baptized. HUTCH. They came to his baptism & he repulsed them not, what is this but that they were baptized. GREENW: Baptism is there understood for Ihons' whole ministration, not only of the seal of baptism, but of his doctrine also. HUTCH. Then they came to Ihons' whole ministery, therefore to his baptism, seeing his baptism was a part thereof. GREEN: Altar not the question, I know they came to see all, as unworthy nearers & seers: but you must prove that they were baptized. HUTCH. They came to be baptized, did they not? GREEN: This is not the question, neither can you prove that they came therefore, I told you the last day Many came to see a reed shaken with the wind, some to cavil, & not to be either instructed or baptized; But you must prove that they were baptized, else you say nothing. HUTCH. I will take him in his own words & wrap them up together; & thus he began to write with his own hand. Mr. Hutchinson replieth that the words Ad baptismum suum cannot be otherwise understood since that the exhortations follownig doth plainly declare they did offer themselves to be baptized, & he doth not bring it to prove that they were baptized, but to force Mr. Greenw: to show whither they were expulsed by John, considering they made offer of themselves. If 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may not be understood of baptism, but of the other part of Ihons' ministery, which was teaching & exhortation, as Mr. Greenwood supposeth, than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. GREEN: You falsify the scriptures, wrist my words, deny your former affirmation, & seek by all means to entangle by setting on foot new questions; I have often proved unto you that their coming unto Ihons' ministery as unworthy beholders, did not prove they were baptized, neither did I say that ad babtismum suum was understood only of his doctrine but of his whole in ministery, whereof his baptism was a part, yet they were not baptized for coming to see him; & where you say you brought it not to prove they were baptized, it is mamanifestlie untrue, both by this & our former conference; Again till you have proved that they were baptized, you say nothing. HUTCH. Mr. Hutchinson proveth that they were baptized, because John saith afterward Ego baptizo vos GREENW: These words Ego baptizo vos are not spoken to those Pharifeis & Saducees, but generally to such as John baptized, for it followeth he that cometh after me etc. shall baptize you with fire and the holy ghost Luke. 3. Verses 15.16. which cannot be solely referred to the Phariseiss, though they had been baptized, but this is a sum of a several doctrine. HUTCH. John Baptist in his exhortation saith unto them who hath forewarned you to fly from the wrath to come etc. this showeth they came to baptized. GREEN: Still you would alter the question, neither doth this prove that they were baptized, or yet that they did repent; But rather on the contrary John publisheth their obstinacy to all the people & threateneth them with the judgements of god. D. BRI. They might repent upon his exhortation, & so be baptized. GREEN: There is no mention that they did repent. D. BRI. Yes these words which Mr. Hutchinson repeated Ego baptizo vos proveth it. GREEN: I have often showed that those words are not spoken to them but to all such as were baptized by John etc. HUTCH. John Baptist knew none of their conversations before or after therefore he stirred them up to bring forth fruit worthy repentance, not that he see their fruits; & so me thnikes this & that receiving of the Eunuch to baptism so suddenly, doth teach us, not to debar any from the sacraments whatsoever their life hath been, yea though we knew it not, they offering themselves & making declaration of faith. GREEN: In the true Church none can be debarred from the sacraments that make with knowledge true confession of their sins, & promise obedience to the word of God, & to be ordered by Christ's ordinances; but I see no such confession made by these Pharisees neither yet by your communicantes. As for the Eunuch we shall show an other manner of confession than the verbal repetition of certain words used in your Church. D. BRI. Why, do you think our people have not made a true confession of their sins, & promised amendment publicly? etc. GREEN: No your parish assemblies were never received into the true faith to submit themselves unto Christ's ordinances by true confession with knowledge & understanding, for that confession they made or make, is but a verbal repetition of words as one might teach a parrot. D. BRI. Some do understand what they say though all do not; will you forsake the Church because some are ignorant? GREEN: Neither do those that understand what they say bring forth fruits, neither are they separated from the unbeleebers, neither is that confession of words which any of you have made a sufficient confession to make you a Church, but the most part are Atheists & know not what they say. D. BRI. What have none of us made a true confession of faith, I never heard the whole profession we make denied before, neither that the most part do not know what they profess, though I grant there be some such. GREEN. No, not with amendment of life; For you remain one body with the infidels, & deny in deed the true profession & practice of the gospel, & subject yourselves to the popish Courts & Cannons. Hear we broke of in some displeasing words, I desiring D. Bright to write, if he would reason orderly; He said he came but to bear Mr. Hutchinson company. Then I demanded of Mr. Hutchinson if he had brought all his proofs he had to prove that the Phariseiss mentioned in the 3 of Matthew were baptized, he said yea, I said than I would oppose what reason I had to prove the contrary; he said it was preposterous, yet he was content etc. so I set down two reasons thus. GREEN. In the 7 Chap. of Luke the 30. verse the holy ghost setteth down that those Scribes & Phariseiss mentioned in the 3. of Matthew were not baptized, 2. that John Baptist ought not to call them generations of vipers whom he received to his baptism. HUTCH. The place of Luke is not to be understood of those Phariseiss mentioned Math. 3. GREEN: Yes, the very doctrine itself of our Saviour Christ going before in the 7 of Luke is evident to be drawn from their contempt of Ihons' ministery Math. 3. HUTCH. Nichodemus believed & many other of the Phariseiss. GREEN: That's not the question. The question is whether the Phariseiss mentioned in the 3. of Matthew were baptized by John or no; Luke saith they were not baptized of him. HUTCH. I will answer that of Luke, & take him in his own words; so he wrote with his own hand thus. Mr. Hutchinson saith the 7. of Luke doth not prove that these Phariseiss mentioned Math. 3. or that none of the Phariseiss were baptized. The argument drawn from that place is of many particulars, & the place of Luke is not generally but indefinitely conceived. Again whereas Greenwood proveth by the 7. of Luke, that the Scribes & Phariseiss mentioned in the 3. of Math. came not to be baptized or (which is the other part or Ihons' ministery) to hear his doctrine, but to gaze on him, & to see him as a spectacle, it is contrary to the words of Math. 3. ad baptismum suum; And therefore the Phariseiss mentioned in the 7 of Luke cannot be understood of the Phariseiss Math. 3. To the other, that John Baptist ought not to call them generation of vipers, though it need no answer, yet it is false because Christ calleth Peter Satan, & his Disciples men of little faith, & an unfaithful nation, Paul the Galatians Insensaios. etc. GREEN. Whiles I was about to write mine answer to these things, Mr. Hutchinson would needs be gone, promising again at his next coming to prove the Church of Rome the true Church: so I was constrained to set down mine answer afterwards, which is this. Our saviour Christ in the of Luke setteth down two sorts of people which came to john's ministery, the one of such as heard & obeyed his doctrine, & were baptized, the other of such as heard & saw, but obeyed not his doctrine, neither were baptized: Of which sort chief the Scribes & Phariseiss are note unrepentant despisers; Therefore I marvel Mr. Hutchinson could so falsify my words to excuse himself of open error, & affirm that I should say the Phariseiss did not hear but only gaze upon him, seeing I said they did hear but did not obey neither were baptized. Further in the 7 of Luke, our Saviour speaking indefinitely & generally of Ihons' ministery, & of the Phariseiss contempt, & that they were not baptized of him, it were open contradiction to say they were baptized, & injury to the holy ghost except you can show by express words that some of them were baptized by Ihon. As for Nichodemus, he was not called to the faith by John, much less baptized by him. To the last point, Mr. Hutch. his examples of Christ's reproof of Peter, or of his other Disciples etc. as also Paul's reprehension of the Galathians, doth rather confirm my former assertions them infringe it, seeing they were reproved for the present committing & standing in sin, & not upon their repentance. So that still I affirm it were contrary to all the scriptures to call them generations of vipers, who had publicly made confession of their sin, till they again transgressed, whereof there is no mention either of their conversion or transgressing after the confession of these Phariseiss Math. 3. But at the first this controversy might have been ended with this, that John received none to be baptized, but such as were won by doctrine, & made public confession; So that either the Phariseiss were not baptized, or else they repent: & then here is no shelter for Mr. Hutchinsons' evasion, to prove by then example that all the land might in one day be received to their sacraments at the beginning of her Mats. reign, without knowledge & true conversion, & so remain a Church of Atheists & idolaters ever since. God call forth his elect from this fellowship. A sum of the conference had in the Fleet the 18. of the 3. month betwixt Mr. Hutchinson & D. Androes of the one party, and Henry Barrow close prisoner there on the other, so near as his frail memory could carry away. THey being set down in the parlour with one gentleman whom they brought with them & three of their own servants, I being entered and come unto them, they desired me to sit down with them, and that we might all be covered etc. I demanded to what end. HUTCH. Your Chamberfellow Mr. Greenwood hath told you the cause of our coming. BAR. He told me that some had been with him yesternight, But told me not the cause of your coming unto me this day. HUTCH. We come to the same end▪ to confer brotherly with you concerning certain positions that you are said to hold. Having Some his book & certain articles of the Bishops before him. BAR. I desire nothing more than Christian conference, but having been 2 years & well nigh an half kept by the Bishops in close prison, could never as yet obtain any such conference, where the Book of God might peaceably decide all our controversies. ANDR. Why the Book of God cannot speak, which way should that decide our controversies? BAR. But the spirit of God can speak, and which way is that spirit tried or discerned but by the word of God? ANDR. But the spirits of men must be subject unto men, will you not subject your spirit to the judgement of men? BAR. The spirit of the prophets must be subject to the prophets, yet must the prophet's judge by the word of God. And for me I willingly submit my whole faith to be tried & judged by the word of God, of all men. ANDR. All men cannot judge, who then shall judge of the word? BAR. The word, and let every one that judgeth take heed that he judge aright thereby. wisdom is justified of her Children. ANDR. This savoureth of a private spirit. BAR. This is the spirit of Christ & his Apstles, & most public they submitted their doctrines to the trial of all men by the word, So do I ANDR. What are you an Apostle? BAR. No, but I have the spirit of the Apostles. ANDR. What, the spirit of the Apostles? BAR. Yea the spirit of the Apostles. ANDR. What, in that measure? BAR. In that measure that God hath imparted unto me, though not in that measure that the Apostles had by any comparison, yet the same spirit. There is but one spirit. HUTCH. Well, you will confer then, and we come to confer with you if you will. BAR. I am most willing of any conference that may be to the glory of God and our edifying. HUTCH. Well let us go to it then. What say you to these propositions? Having the Bishop's articles, & Somes book in his hand. BAR. For Somes book I disclaimed it, and said the man had greatly injured me: For any propositions that I hold I was desirous to set down mine own propositions, and never required either the BBs. or Do. Some to set them down for me. HUTCH. I was at the great Commission a year ago, where you did set down with your own hand your own answers. BAR. Then did you see the Bishops offer me the greatest wrong that I suppose was ever offered to any Christian in any age. I was brought out of my close prison & compelled there to answer of the sudden unto such articles as the Bishops in their secret Council had contrived against us. I could not be admitted any further respire or consideration, neither any present conference with any of my brethren, neither yet so much as a Copy of mine own answers, though I most earnestly & humbly besought the same, but have ever since been kept in most straight imprisonment without company, air, or comfort, never hearing of any kind of conference until now; But have in the mean while been grievously slandered, blasphemed and accused, by sparsed articles, printed privileged books, in their pulpits, in open Session, and unto hour honourable maiestrats. HUTCH. We will not hear your complaints because we cannot redress your complaints. ANDR. For close imprisonment you are most happy: The solitary & contemplative life I hold the most blessed life; It is the life I would choose. BAR. You speak philosophically but not Christianly. So sweet is the harmony of God's graces unto me in the congregation, and the conversation of the Saints at all times, as I think myself as a sparrow on the house top when I am exiled from them. But could you be content also Mr. Androes to be kept from exercise & air so long together? These are also necessary to a natural body. ANDR. I say not that I would want air. But who be those Saints you speak of, where are they? BAR. They are even those poor Christians whom you so blaspheme & persequote, and now most unjustly hold in your prisons. ANDR. But where is their Congregation? BAR. Though I knew I purposed not to tell you. HUTCH. They are a company of Sectories as you also are. BAR. Know you what a Sectorie is? HUTCH. I know you to be Sectories & Schismatics. BAR. What both? It should seem you know not what a Sectory is. But it is evident that your Church is deeply set, both in Schism & apostasy. HUTCH. A Sectory & Schismatic are both one. BAR. That is not so. A Schismatic is ever cut from the Church, a Sectory is not so. HUTCH. They are both one, and come indifferently of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scindo findo. ANDR. There is difference betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a schism and an heresy; the one signifying election the other a rent. But I never heard of any difference betwixt a Schism & a sect, both coming of one word. BAR. Though they both come of one root, yet is not a Schism and a Sect all one. Here they would needs have a greek Dictionary & greatly wished it. So I sent for scapula, which being fetched, did not satisfy us concerning this point. ANDR. Secta in latin is the same that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek. BAR. I deny that; There is difference between a Sect and a Schism. ANDR. Secta comes of seco to cut, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to cut, what difference. BAR. I take the use of the word Secta, rather to be of sequor to follow, because Secta a Sect signifieth via, a way, and great difference appeareth in the Scriptures betwixt a Schismatic & a Sectory. A Sectory is always in the Church, a Schismatic always out of the Church. ANDR. Where find you this in the Scriptures? BAR. I find it 1. Cor. 3. and Hebr. 10. In the one place Sectories, in the other Schismatics described. ANDR. The Sectories 1. Cor. 3. are Schismatics. BAR. That cannot be; they were chief teachers of, & in the Church of Corinth, where the Apostle reproveth them because some held of, & followed one teacher, some of an other, as if one had held of Paul another of Apollo's. ANDR. There contentions are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. BAR. What of that; yet you see these were Sectories, and Schismatics are they which have cut themselves from the Church Hebr. 10. by leaving the fellowship. HUTCH. 1 Cor. 11. The Apostle saith that Schisms are amongst them, Therefore in the Church. BAR. What is that to the purpose; I hope you will not say that he can be a Schismatic until he have rend himself from the Church. There shallbe heresies & Schisms in the Church, yet no heretic or Schismatic until they be either convinced & remain obstinate, or else have cut themselves from the Church, by forsaking the fellowship. ANDR. Augustine saith that an heretic breaketh the faith, a Schismatic charity. BAR. A Schismatic also breaketh the faith, by departing from the communion of the Church. ANDR. A Schismatic may departed from the Church, and yet hold the faith. BAR. They cannot hold the faith which forsake the fellowship of the faith. ANDR. You speak ignorantly; sundry Schismatics have not erred. BAR. I speak truly & as the holy ghost speaketh in the last verse of the 10. to the Hebr. But we are not of the withdrawing unto destruction, but of faith to the conservation of our soul. Here you see the keeping of the faith, set opposite against the departing from the fellowship. ANDR. Looking upon my Testament 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 withdrawing. What is this to Schism, The place you would allege is higher up in the Chapter. BAR. This is the place which I would now allege, what say you unto it, is not that withdrawing from the fellowship Schism? Can any withdraw from the fellowship and yet keep the faith? is there any salvation out of the Church, of salvation without faith? ANDR. What is there none but a true faith, never read you of any other? BAR. Yet acknowledge I but one faith▪ as there is but one God etc. which faith no Schismatic can have; and as for this false faith, Devils & heretics may also have such faith: But you will not say that an heretic doth hold the faith, neither yet doth a Schismatic hold the faith. ANDR. Do not hypocrites make a show of faith and yet they have no faith? what faith is theirs? BAR. There is no comparison betwixt hypocrites & Schismatics, the one whilst he stadeth making show of the true faith both by life & profession, so far as we can judge; the other making open breach of faith. But after the hypocrite is once discovered, I say then he also appeareth to have no faith. HUTCH. These are but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, strife about words; shall we begin to reason to some purpose. BAR. If we may have indifferent notaries that may justly set down what passeth on each side, These speeches were at the beginning of our conference which my memory serveth not place aright. so that we may either of us have a copy thereof, the better to expend & consider of each others reasons, I am very willing at any time or place so to reason. HUTCH Here is one that can write: and called one of his men. BAR. He is no such writer as I would have. Further I would have some witnesses, because you are two, & I am but one. ANDR. Rather than that shall be a hindrance I will go up & reason with Mr. Greenwood, and leave you two together. BAR. That is not my meaning, I had rather you tarried still. Only because you are two & I but one, therefore your testimony may the rather be taken against me. Ink & paper being brought, and many entered into the Parlour, we were first to set down & agree of a Prop. which after much discourse to & fro, M. Hutch. set down after this manner HUTCH. The parish Church of St. Bride is a true Church, to which any Christian may join in their public prayers and Sacraments as they are by law now established. BAR. The Parish of your St. Bride, as it consisteth of a confuse multitude of all sorts of people, mingled together in one body, standing under a false ministry in Idolatry & disorder, is not a true established Church of Christ, and therefore not such as any true Christian ought to join unto in their prayers & Sacraments, as they stand in this estate. Here Mr. Andros moved that seeing the question was agreed upon, & the time now far spent, we might departed until an other time: But I seeing much company gotten in, and nothing more heard against me then this proposition, desired them to say somewhat unto it in that time that remained. First therefore Mr. Androes found much fault with my proposition, as disordered & unlearnedly set down, and therefore deserved no answer. I said that if it were true it sufficed me, and unless they could disprove it it must still stand in force against them. Here we had also much ado about our order of reasoning, whither it should be after their school manner, by Logic or no. I desired to reason after a Christian manner, according unto truth, though not in logical forms, where after some discourse of the necessity & vanity of the art of logic, I said I would not bind the majesty of the Script. to logical forms, whereabout we should have more vain cavilles, and spend more time, than about the discussing of the question; and that my conscience could neither be convinced or instructed with any syllogisms so much as with the weight of reason & force of truth. Wherefore at length they condescending unto me, denied with one consent my whole proposition as false & untrue. I also denied their proposition as altogether false, and willed them to make proof of it. But still urdging me to prove mine, I condescended so to do. BAR. In my general proposition are contained four principal heads. Namely, 1. The confuse commixture of all sorts of people. 2. Their antichristian & unlawful ministry, 3 Their false & idolatrous manner of worshipping of God, and of their whole ministration both of the word and Sacraments etc. 4. And their popish & antichristian order & ecclesiastical government. From all which several heads infinite reasons may be drawn. But because all these cannot be handled at once, I will begin with some one of them. And as order requireth (if it please you) I will begin to show that this people, as they stand in these parishes in this confusion etc. are not in this estate capable of the Sacraments & ministry of Christ. ANDR. Order requireth that you should rather begin to disprove our ministery first. BAR. There must be sheep before there be a flock, A flock before there be a shepherd. ANDR. A flock & a Shepherd are relatives. BAR. There must be a flock before there can be a shepherd, because the people must choose the Pastor. ANDR. That is a devise of yours. BAR. Will you call the Commandment of Christ my devise? HUTCH. Your whole proposition is denied, prove that. BAR. My proposition being so large I must begin with some one part thereof; I will first therefore begin with the people of this parish. BAR. Arg. 1. The people of this parish are a confuse company of Infidels, Idolatort, ignorant, profane & open wicked; Therefore no such communion to which a Christian my join in their prayers & sacraments in this estate. ANDR. Infidels, what Infidels? Know you what Infidels are? BAR. I take them to be unbeleivers, such as have no true faith. ANDR. What because they have no true faith, therefore Infidels? BAR. Yea because they have no true faith, therefore unbelievers or Infidels. HUTCH. We receive no infidels into our Church, if you mean by Infidels 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without faith. BAR. I mean by Infidels, men without faith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. HUTCH. What, know you what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is here, it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 privative. BAR. And so I understand it; men destitute of faith. ANDR. Can you put no difference betwixt Infidels & Idolaters, what think you the Papists to be Infidels? BAR. I know the word infidel to be more large, yet hold I all Idolaters infidels, and the Papists infidels, because such gross Idolaters. ANDR. We think more reverently of the Papists than so, though they be Idolaters. BAR. But Moses & Paul think so of all Idolaters, though Israelites, though jews, though Apostates; Saying that what they offer they offer unto Devils. Levit. 17. Deut. 12. 1 Cor. 10. HUTCH. Will you call hypocrites, Infidels? Because we receive some hypocrites, therefore Infidels? BAR. hypocrites whilst they make & hold the same profession and faith with us cannot by us be discerned, or judged by the Church, until the Lord further discover them, by breaking out into some error or transgression. But infidels are such as either are never come, or are fallen from the faith; Of which sort I affirm all the people as they thus stand in your parishes to be. HUTCH. & ANDR. We deny that, prove it. BAR. They stand one with the world, uncalled forth unto the faith. Therefore they are such. ANDR. Wat new phrase is this, stand one? what mean you by stand one? BAR. The phrase is not new but usual through all the Scriptures. I mean by standing one with the world, that they remain one body with the world & the world with them, uncalled forth unto the faith etc. HUTCH. ANDR. We deny it: they stand not one with the world. BAR. I thus prove it. They stand one with this whole land, & with all the wicked & abominable persons thereof, Therefore they stand one with the world. HUTCH. ANDR. We deny both the Antecedent & consequent. BAR. In proving the land to be of the world, the Consequent will of necessity follow. ANDR. We deny this land to be of the world. BAR. That land & people that are not truly called out & gathered unto Christ are still of the world. For our saviour saith unto his Disciples I have chosen you out of the world etc. joh. 15. But this land hath not as yet been truly called out & gathered unto Christ, Therefore it is of the world and the world of it. For I am sure it is neither holier not better than Israel & judea were at the coming of our Saviour. HUTCH. ANDR. Our land is truly called & gathered unto Christ, and so are the people of this parish. BAR. Christ's Church always consisteth of a holy free people, separate from the world, rightly called & gathered unto Christ, walking forth in faith & obedience; But the people of this Parish and generally of the land have not as yet been thus separate from the wicked of the land, neither as yet been thus gathered unto Christ, but stand mingled together with all the wicked etc. as their present estate showeth, Therefore they are no people capable of the holy ministery & Sacraments of Christ etc. HUTCH. ANDR. The people of this parish, as also of the other parishes in the land have been & are truly called unto Christ, neither is there any open wicked received into, or suffered in the Church. BAR. All the land at this day is of your Church without the exception of any one person▪ But I am sure you will not say but there are many wicked in the land, Therefore you are not separate from the wicked. HUTCH. I know no such wicked as you speak of, If you know any you shall do well to complain that they may be cast out. BAR. Alas I know none other. But why were they thus received? Or how should they be cast out? ANDR. There were two cast out the last Sunday here in London, Therefore we separate the wicked and keep them not amongst us as you say. BAR. And had you no more apparently wicked but two worthy to be cast out? HUTCH. ANDR. We know no more. BAR. That is well; I report me to all your gaols etc. And were not these two cast out by the power of Antichrist, by some Chancellor or Commissarie, or some of that crew? ANDR. What if they were? Bar. Then you cast out Satan by the power of Satan. ANDR. Prove that? BAR. That were to digress from the present question, which is not whom & how you now cast out, but whom & how you received and keep in your Church, which I affirm to be all the profane multitude of the land, without any true separation at the first, and so you continue. ANDR. That is not so, I tell you we excommunicated, two the last day, Therefore we have separation. HUTCH. We deny your Assertion, we received not all, or any profane into our Church at any tyme. BAR. In Q. Mary's reign all the land was fallen into open Apostasy and Idolatry; In this estate were they all found at the beginning of our Q. Elizabeth's reign, and so all at one instant upon her first setting up this religion received into the body of your Church, had this ministery set over them, these Sacraments administered unto them etc. in your Parishes as they now stand. Therefore all the profane were received into your Church without choice or separation. HUTCH. There were none then received but such as made true profession, and we can neither require nor discern more. BAR. They could make no true profession that had no knowledge of the truth. But the people that time had no knowledge of the truth, Therefore they could make no true profession so suddenly. HUTCH. They all had knowledge of the truth, They repent and sorrowed for their sins as appeareth in the Confession. BAR. Thus I prove that they had neither true faith nor repentance. None can have true faith & repentance but such as are called thereunto by the preaching of the gospel; But all this people were received into your Church without the preaching of the gospel going before; Therefore they were received into your Church without true faith & repentance; For all were received into your Church at one instant, this ministery at the first dash set over them all etc. Here Mr. Androes began a large discourse, that the jews had two manner of excommunications, The one of the heathens, the other of the Publicans The one they banished from coming into their Temple, The other they suffered to come thither, yet abhorred they their company & conversation in civil things. And here would needs know of me which of these were the greater. BAR. Your question is to no purpose neither is your assertion true; The jews had not two kinds of excommunication, They did not excommunicate the heathen. And in that they abhorred the company of the Publicans in civil conversation whilst they admitted them to the Temple, they sinned. ANDR. Let him be unto thee as a beathen & a Publican. Is there not two kind of excommunications mentioned amongst the jews, one to the heathen, another unto the Publican? BAR. No; there is no excommunication of the jews mentioned: The heathen they could not excommunicate, because they were never in communion with them: The Publicans they did not excommunicate, because they still admitted them unto the Temple. ANDR. I will show you in Scripture that the Gentiles were not suffered to enter into the Temple; Therefore they were excommunicate: And the other was a civil discommuning. BAR. It should seem you know not what excommunication is. They were never admitted to enter into the Temple, Therefore they were not excommunicate; For none can be excommunicate but he that hath been in communion. But the heathen was never in Communion. As for this civil discommuning of such as are still held members of the Church, it is a most ungodly devise; For to cast out or abhor in our common meats such as the Lord receiveth unto his Table, were very unchristian. ANDR. You understand not the place; Did not our Saviour Christ there speak of excommunication, willing them to have such as refused to hear the Church in detestation, as the jews held their heathens & publicans, whom they excommunicate. BAR. Our Saviour there speaketh not of excommunication of the jews, but of the excommunicate Christians, willing all his Disciples to shun & eschew such as hear not the Church, as the jews did the heathens & the Publicans, to have neither spiritual nor civil communion with them. But what is all this to the purpose, what answer do you make to my former reason? HUTCH. Which reason? You have as yet made none, but proved the same which the same. BAR. This reason. All the people of the Land were received into the Church at one instant; had this ministry & these Sacraments etc. without being called unto faith & repentance by the preaching of the gospel. Therefore they were received into your Church without true faith and repentance, because it is impossible to have true faith & true repentance without the preaching of the gospel going before. ANDR. Was not the Eunuch as suddenly received into the Church, had the Sacraments administered unto him, with as little knowledge as they? BAR. No, he was called by the preaching of Philip, and had more knowledge than any of these people, or well nigh any of their teachers then had, being all generally plunged in apostasy & Idolatry immediately before. ANDR. Can he bewray greater ignorance, then to doubt of so Mr. Andros read the place out of Esai. plain a place, as none in the Scriptures could be more manifest. He was wounded for our transgressions, he was broken for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace upon him, & with his stripes we are healed, of whom else could this be understood but of Christ? BAR. I not looking upon the place as Luke recordeth it Act. 8. Espied not then how craftily Mr. Androes falsefied & misaledged the text; Yet I added this; He was led as a Sheep unto the slaughter, & like a lamb dumb before his shearer, So opened he not his mouth. My answer therefore hereupon was, that it was no ignorant question. But that the greatest rabbin of those times might well have asked the question, seeing it is so common a thing in the prophets, to have figured many things that came unto Christ in their own persons, as appeareth every where in the book of psalms, and also in this prophecy, and almost in all other. Is it not said in this prophet, Behold, I & the children that thou hast given me, are as signs & wonders in Israel. might not this question then be well asked whither the Prophet spoke it in his own person or of an other? ANDR. It was a most ignorant question. Can any bear or be broken for our transgressions but Christ only? BAR. But the Prophet might be led as a sheope unto the slaughter etc. And therefore the question was according unto knowledge, and such as without knowledge could not be moved; Or unless it were known, that text not be understood. This Eunuch was a godly & zealous Proselyte before Philip met with him. ANDR. What, will you say godly before he had the knowledge of Christ? BAR. Yea I say godly, and that before he knew that Christ was exhibited, & come in the flesh. ANDR. Then belike in that estate the Eunuch might have been saved, if so be he had died before he had heard that Christ was come in the flesh & ascended. BAR. Yea I doubt not thereof. ANDR. HUTCH. That is heresy, will you set that down under your hand? BAR. Yea that I will, and abide by it also to be truth, and prove both you heretics if you obstinately affirm and teach the contrary. ANDR. Why then there were two faiths, two ways of salvation, one for jews, an other for Christians. BAR. It followeth not; There was but one faith, one salvation, common to all beleivers from the beginning; Christ to day, & yesterday, & for ever the same. The jews believed in Christ to come, The Gentiles then in Christ come; Both in Christ; Both saved by faith in Christ. The jews that had not as yet seen the person, nor heard of the ministery of Christ, dying in that estate were undoubtedly saved. The Lord bare much & a long time with the jews, and gave a time of removing these things. HUTCH. The Eunuch made a true profession when he confessed JESUS to be the Son of GOD, & was then baptized; Therefore our people making as good confession, why should they not also as suddenly be received to the Sacraments & ministery? BAR. It hath oft been said that your people do not neither could make so good a confession as the Eunuch because they had not the preaching of the gospel going before their confession, neither showed they such fruits of faith as the Eunuch did, who was a true worshipper of GOD before. ANDR. The Gaoler in the Acts was as suddenly called, baptized, and showed no more fruits of faith then these did. BAR. That is not so; he washed the Apostles stripes, administered comfort unto them, & food unto them after that he & his howsehold had heard & believed the word preached. But I never heard of any Church erected in this manner, without the word preached going before as yours is. ANDR. They had the word preached in king Edward's time. BAR. What boted that, when they all fell to Idolatry in Q. Mary's time, and all without being called to repentance by the gospel, were received into your Church etc. HUTCH. The confession they made was sufficient. BAR. That is denied and proved insufficient, because it was not wrought by the preaching of the gospel going before. Answer that reason. hereupon Mr. Hutchinson took the pen & ink & wrote to this effect. HUTCH. The confession of sin that is publicly made in the Church of England, is sufficient to enable all such as say it sincerely, to the ministery & Sacraments of the Church. BAR. The verbal confession that is prescribed & used in the Church of England, is not sufficient to enable the people that say it, or say Amen unto it, unto the ministry and Sacraments of Christ; Neither could they make any true or sincere confession, without the preaching of the word going before, to call them thereunto. Upon this issue we for that time ceased; They affirming this verbal confession in this manner said, to be sufficient to enable all the people so saying it over, And I for the reasons above said, denying the same. Mr. Hutchinson put up the paper wherein these Arguments and propositions were written into his bosom, but promised me a Copy; whereunto I condescended, so that upon the next conference I might keep the paper. There arose controversy betwixt Mr. ANDR. & me concerning these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He affirming them to be all one; I, to be very diverse; the one signifying, vicinity; the other, disjunction of habitations; he alleging the ancient use; And I both the ancient & present; affirming all to be corrupt. Mr. Androes also in reasoning with me oft swore by his honesty, for which I reproved him for swearing unlawfully & making his faith an Idol. But he said I knew not what an oath or an Idol meant. Mr. Androes also used this word Luck. I said there was no fortune or luck; but all things came to pass by the providence of God. To prove Luck he turned in my Testament to the 10. of Luke ver. 31. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 etc. And turned in a leaf upon the place, and as he was going out willed me to consider of it. which is no more then to come to pass, although suddenly or unlooked for to us, yet by the direction & providence of God unto us; without which a sparrow falleth not upon the ground. So that though the heathens abused this word, to chance & fortune, yet is it both contrary to Christian faith, and not the first and proper signification of the word. A sum of such chief points as were handled in the second conference, betwixt Mr. Hutchinson, Do. Androes on the one party, and john Greenwood & Henry Barrow prisoners in the Fleet, on the other party, upon the 13. of the 4. month. The discourse whereof orderly to set down we cannot, all things were so disorderly handled therein by them who sought nothing so much as to obscure & turn away the truth by their school learning, manifold cavils & shifts, shameless denial of manifest truths, & most unchristian contumelies, scoffs, & reproaches against hour persons. 1. FIrst they hold, by especially Do. Androes, that the scriptures now ought not to decide controversies, because the scriptures cannot speak. 2. That the scriptures ought to be judged & interpreted by the ancient father's writings, & not by other scriptures, or the circumstances of the text. 3. That because the spirits of the Prophets must be subject to the Prophets, therefore the writings of these dead men ought to judge & interpret the scriptures. 4. That the scriptures ought to be interpreted & expounded by Logic. 5. That no man may preach the word, or interpret scriptures, but he that hath an office in the Church. 6. Being pressed with Acts. 13. ver. 15. And their own note upon the same in their Geneva Bible, he utterly rejected both that translation & the notes thereupon, saying it was inhibited to be used in their Church. 7. They further said, that Paul was a minister of that Synagogue, because he was a Pharisey. 8. There is no Church where there is no administration of sacraments. Being pressed that the Pastor alone cannot make a Church, neither that upon the death or deposing of the Pastor, at which time the Church for a season is without sacraments, as also that the host of the Israelites were a long time in the wilderness without sacraments; they only answered unto the last, & said, that the Israelites were not without sacraments at any time, because they always had the pillar of fire. 9 Being showed that this pillar was no sacrament of the covenant prescribed by God to be used of the Church, they still affirmed that the Church could not be said to be without the sacraments, whiles they had these Sacramental signs. 10. They held that Christ after his death descended into hell. 11. Do. Androes endeavoured to prove it by Colos. 2. ver. 15. because Christ is there said to have triumphed over the principalities & powers; his consequent & collection being denied & showed to be a popish dream, & to have no groundwork or warrant from this place, he sought to escape by denying the english translation, which saith and hath triumphed over them in the same cross, because it is in some copies triumphing them in himself. 12. Being pressed that Christ's spirit was in the hands of his father, Luke. 23.46. his body in the grave, therefore he could not after his death descend into hell. To this Do. Androes answered, that his soul being in the hand of God might be in hell, because the hand & power of God was every where; It was then said that Christ's soul was in paradise, & that all the souls of the blessed were then by that reason in hell aswell as his, yea Christ his soul now might so be said to be in hell likewise, because the power of God is every where: But Christ having finished all his sufferings, & performed them upon his cross. john. 19 had now nothing to do in hell. There remained an Argument at our last conference without answer, which was this. None can be called to a true profession of faith, without the preaching of the gospel going before; But all the people in these parishes were received into your Church without the preaching of the gospel going before; Therefore they were received without a true profession. 13. Do. Androes here denied the minor. & said the people were not received into their Church & had the sacraments delivered unto them before they had been taught half a year. Being demanded what the people in the mean while were to be esteemed, whether faithful or idolatrous, whether members or not members of their Church; he said, they were neither to be esteemed faithful nor unbelievers, neither members nor not members, but they where all this while in membring. 14. Being demanded what those preachers were to be esteemed, whither ministers or not ministers unto this people, they answered that they were ministers. Argument. 1. There can be no minister but unto a flock; But here by your own saying was no flock at this time Therefore these could be no ministers unto them. 15. They here denied the Mayor, & affirmed that there may be a minister without a flock. Argument. 2. A shepherd can be no shepherd over goats or swine, but only over sheep; The ministery of Christ cannot be set over infidels, or over any people to take charged or cure over them, until those people be called unto, & have made profession of the faith. But here the people were not as then called unto, neither had made profession of the faith: Therefore the ministery of Christ could not at that time be set over them, in that estate. 16. They still denied the Mayor, & gave this reason thereof, because the unbelievers might hear the ministery of the Church. We granted that the unbelievers might hear the ministery of the Church, but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministery before they were members of the Church; It is one thing to hear the ministery of the Church, & an other thing to be a member of the Church. 17. Then they brought Paul's example to prove that a ministery might be set over infidels, because he was said to be the teacher of the Gentiles, & all the Apostles willed to go and teach all nations. To this it was answered, that Paul stood no minister neither took government or charged over any heathen which were not called to the faith, & joined to the Church, still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth, & exercising a ministery over them. 18. They alleged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there took charged & care over strangers. It was answered that those strangers were jews, called to the faith, dispersed through many regions, as the next verse. 1 Pet. 1.2. & james 1. showeth. 19 Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinth's. though ye have many teachers, yet have ye but one father. It was still answered that those Corinthians were believers. Argument. 3. There can be no communion betwixt the believers & unbelievers; therefore the infidels can have no communion with the Church in the ministery thereof, or in any spiritual action. Being demanded by them what we meant by communion, we answered, such communion as is spoken of Act. 2.42. in doctrine, in prayer, in the sacraments, in mutual communication in all Christian duties, & how none were received to this communion, before they were joined as members unto the Church. Argument. 4. There can now be no Pastor over any people by the rules of Christi testament, but where a mutual covenant is made between the Pastor & the people, he bound to teach, guide, & govern them, they again to obey him in the Lord: But the infidels have made no such covenant with the Pastor; Therefore etc. 20. Do. Androes said, the Pastor ought not to govern; that he himself was a Pastor, yet no guide or governor of the flock; and that in the Church there were governors over the Pastors, as Bishops. We answered that the word Bishop or Overseer was a general name, common to the Pastor, teacher, & Elders, which name importeth government & care. Phil. 1.1. Act. 20.28. 21. Do. Androes here said, that the word bishop was not common unto either the Pastor, teacher, or Elders, but unto other higher governors. We answered, that unto their ministery the name of a bishop did not indeed accord, but only unto their Lord bishops, & desired some proof of this their assertion out of the word of God. 22. Unto which they answered, that all their ministery was by positive laws. We than said that it must needs follow, that all their religion & worship was politic also, & that ministery which Christ hath not prescribed in his Testament is antichristian. At lentgh, after many bitter & reproachful speeches against us, we returned again to our former discourse, & framed this Argument unto the rest. Argument. 5. The people now are to make choice & proof of their Paestor: But they without the faith cannot make choice of their Pastor: Therefore etc. Here they said that this & allowre other positions were fond, vain, & foolish; & this was all the answer we could get of them. Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking up required me Henry Barrow to set down some reasons why I refused to join unto their Church, that the people present might be satisfied; whereupon I set him down under mine hand as followeth. The reasons why I Henry Barrow cannot join with the Church of England, yielded by me the 13. of the 4. month. 1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith, but stand mingled together in confusion. 2. The ministery set over them is not the true ministery of the gospel which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament. 3. The administration & worship of this Church is not according to the word of God. 4. The ecclesiastical government, Courts, officers & Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ, but new & antichristian. Until all these points be either approved by the word of God, or reform, I cannot consent to join unto this Church in this estate. These things I witness & subscribe. H. Barrow. I john Greenwood, being demanded by Mr. Hutchinson whether I would set down mine hand unto this, or else yield some other cause of my dislike, refused to do either of both, until he had proved the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twice promised, & at neither of his come would perform. A brief answer to certain slanderous Articles & ungodly calumniations sparsed abroad by the BBs & their adherents against diverse faithful & true Christians her majesties loyal and loving Subjects to colour their own ungodly & tyrannical dealing with them, & to bring them into hatred both with Prince and people. Article 1. They hold that the Lords prayer or any cell prayer is blasphemy, & they never use any prayer for the Queen as supreme head under Christ of the Church of England. Answer WE hold that the Lords prayer (so commonly called) is sacred & Canonical scripture, containing a most absolute & perfect rule & ground work whereby all faith full prayers ought to be framed, given by our saviour Christ for the instruction and confirmation of his Disciples that their prayers might be according to the will & glory of God: But that the very form of words as they are in these petitions were given & instituted as a set & stinted prayer, or that hour Saviour Christ & his Apostles have ever used it in that manner, we find not in the scriptures, where we see their prayers according to their present occasions etc. set down in other words, & no mention made of such prescript & limited saying of this as they require & enjoin: Moreover, if they were as ignorant what belongeth to true prayer, or of the true use of this form for prayer as they seem, yet even their own practise in their pulpits & Liturgies doth excuse us thus far forth & condemn them. For her Majesty we pray both publicly & privately, day & night at all times & places according to hour duties as becometh us, and god willing will not cease so to do whilst hour lives shall last. Article 2. That all set prayers or stinted prayers, or read service are but mere babbling in God's sight & plain Idolatry. TO this we answer that we are taught in the Scriptures a john. 4. That God is a Spirit & willbe worshipped in Spirit & truth: we find further in the Script. & in our selves b Rom. 8.26. That God giveth to all his Children▪ and hath given to us his holy Spirit to help our infirmities & to teach us to pray according to his will in his word: we are also there taught. c 1. Io. 2.27. That we need no man to teach us but as the same anointing teacheth us of all things. moreover we find not any such devised prayers or stinted service perscribed to the Church by those excellent & perfect workmen Thappostles; d 1. Cor. 3.11.12. & ●▪ neither yet any Commandment or authority given by them unto the church to make, bring in, ympose, or receive, Matt. 15.9. Coll. 2.20. Gall. 5.1. any such stinted, devised, & Apochriphas service where only the word of God & the graces of God's spirit ought to be heard: For these causes we esteem & refuse all such devised Liturgies as superfluous, will not worship inventions & traditions of men, besides & contrary to Gods revealed word, to the graces of God's Spirit, & to our Christian liberty; Wherefore we wonder at the ignorance of these blind Pharisees, which knowing neither the right end, reve. 10.4. 1. Thes. 5.19 use, nor means of prayer themselves, yet dare in this manner teach, correct, & quench the Spirit of God in others by imposing the chaff & leaven of their own lypps upon the whole Church, yea as a sacrifice upon God himself will he nil he. Article 3. They teach their is no head or Supreme governor of the Church of Christ: And that the Queen hath none authority in the Church to make laws Ecclesiastical. WE hold Christ to be the only a Ephes. 1.22.23. head of his Church, & the greatest Princes in the world to be but members of his Church: We hold her Majesty to be b 1. Pet. 2.13 supreme governor of all persons estates & causes whatsoever with in her Dominions: We renounce the Pope & all popish jurisdictions over either Conscience, Queen, or country, and we acknowledge no other Prince, potentate, or power foreign, or Domestical, Ecclesiastical or Civil, to have any superior or equal authority within her majesties Dominions: We hold Christ to be the only c Deu. 18.15 Matt. 17.5. Acts. 3.22. lawgiver in his Church, and that he hath already (being the d Heb. 3.6. Son, & as faithful in his house as his servant MOSES in his Tabernacle) established sufficient Laws for the government of his Church unto the world's end in his last e 1. Cor. 2.16 will & Testament; which no Prince, nor all the Princes in the world nor the whole Church may f Gal. 3.15. alter g Deu. 4.2. Reu. 22.18.19. add unto or take from, upon the pains contained in the Scriptures. But both Prince & people ought with all their endeavour, as far as the Lord hath given them knowledge & means, to put the same in execution. Article 4. They teach that a lay man may beget faith, And that we have no need of public administration. WE know not what you mean by your old popish terms of lay men, we hold all true beleyvers Ecclesiastical & a 1. Pet. 2.5. Reu. 1.6. spiritual, yea and that any such believer may beget faith, and for evident proof thereof refer you to these places of scripture Luke. 10.1. etc. Luke. 8.39. Acts. 8.4. Acts 11.19. etc. Acts. 18.26. 1 Corin. 14. entier 1 Corinth. 7.16. Phil. 2.15.16. 1 Pet. 3.2. 1 Pet. 4.10. 2 Tim. 2.2. 1 Thessa. 5.11. etc. jam. 5.19.20. which shall either instruct of convince your herein. Yet hold we the public administration of the word by PASTORS, TEACHERS and the PROPHETS in the church by far, & without all comparison more excellent, more blessed, & more to be desired, and judge your sin and iniquity by so much the more heinous and even come to the full, in that you so bitterly with all your gall and spite resist the holy ghost, by hindering us his servants from proceeding to so heavenly & gracious a means of our salvation, 1. Thes. 2.15.16. Mat. 23.13. and earnestly with all your forces oppose yourselves against God, in that you will neither enter yourselves into his kingdom nor suffer such as would. Article 5. They condemn all coming to Church, all preaching, all Institution of Sacraments, and say that all the Ministers are sent by God in his anger to deceive the people. THe Lord condemneth, and we according to his Commandment shun all false Churches, false & deceitful preaching, and false Institutions of Sacraments, and we believe as the Lord hath said a 2. Thes. 2.10.11.12. Reu. 13.13.14. Ren. 19.20. that all false Ministers are sent of God in his wrath to deceive the people, of which sort we protest, your public parish assemblies as they stand in this Confusion, disorder, and Idolatry, your public preaching, Sacraments, and ministry to be, and are ready by the manifest evidence of God's undoubted word to approve the same to your faces, it any Christian audience or indifferent trial might be granted. Article 6. They affirm that the people must reform the Church and not tarry for the Magistrate, And that the primitive Church sued not to Courts or Parliaments, nor waited upon Prince's pleasures; But we make Christ to attend upon Princes, & to be Subject to their laws and government. WE go not about to reform your a jos. 6.26. jere. 51.9.26. Romish Bisshopricks, Deans, officers; Advocates, Courts, Cannons, neither your popish Priests, halfe-Priests, Ministers, all which come out of the bottomless pit: But we leave those merchantmen & their wares with the b jer. 50.15 16. Reu. 18.6. curse of God upon them until they repent: We are also taught in the word, that the kingdom of God cometh not by c Luke. 17.20. observation, neither is brought in by the d zach. 4.6. Isay. 40.10. jere 17.5. arm of flesh, but by the spirit of God, and by the power of his word e Mat. 3.3.8. working in the hearts of all Christ's faithful servants true repentance from dead works and all things that displease the Lord even as soon as they are reproved unto them by his word, as also a true conversion of their hearts and souls unto the Lord, with an earnest love, continual zeal, and ready desire to put in practice what soever the Lord showeth them to be his will in his word without all f Luke. 9.59. etc. delay or g Luke. 14.18. etc. excuse whosoever forbid or Command the contrary: We are to obey God rather than men, and if any man be ignorant let him be h 1. Cor. 14.38. Reu. 22.11. ignorant still; We are not to stay from doing the Lords Commandment i Mat. 15.12 etc. Gal. 1.10. upon the pleasure or offence of any. Article 7. That the Book of common prayer is a pregnant I dole and full of abominations, a piece of swines flesh, and abomination to the Lord. WE have showed in our answer to your second Article what we think of all Apocrypha & devised Liturgies, when they are brought into & emposed upon the Church: But seeing you are so zealous for the silver shrine of your DIANA, and wail for your Portuise, we affirm it to be as you report a (PREGNANT IDOL) which hath in it an infinite sort of Idols, & is full of abominations & bitter fruit. As may appear by the double Idols of your solemn & double feasts of your hollomass, Christmas, Candlemass, Easter, Whitsontyde, trinity sunday etc. Your Lady days, Saints days with the Eaves, feasts fasts, and devised worship unto them, which fill a great part of your book, Also your lents, rogations, ash-wensdayes with the bitter cursings & comminations, Your mawnday & holy Thursdays, your goodfrydayes with their peculiar whorships, Your division of the year into your Advent, Septuagesima, Easter and trinety Sunday with their Collects & whorships serving to every week in the year, yea to every day in the week, except such feasts & Days as are above named, To all which you add your blasphemous abuse of the Scriptures shredding and rending them from their natural sense & true use, to bend & apply them to Your Idol feasts & days; Your abominable Collects over, for, & to the dead, Your celebrating days to Angels, as your Michael's day, your making archangels there and making Michael a Creature. As also your high profanation of the Sacraments perverting changing & corrupting the holy institution of Christ with your popish devices, sigens, Godfathers, Godmothers, with their ridiculous dialogue between Priest, Clerk, Godfathers, Godmothers, & the infant, and the rash, undiscreet, and unpossible vow of the said gossipps, Your purifications, & Churching of the Woman, with her offering then for herself, & at the christenings (as they call it) for the Child, your hasty baptism by the midwives, your bishoping or second baptizing of Children; Neither is the other Sacrament free from your pollutions, It is sold for 2 pence a head, th'institution of Christ broken and changed in the delivery, a stagelike Dialogue between Priest, Clerk, people added, new Apochryphas laws and injunctions added, to the Priest to stand at the North end of the table etc. to the people to kneel, verse & Collect in their appointed times & turns. Moreover your popish & Idolatrous housling the sick with this Sacrament, Thus prostituting & selling both Sacraments to the open unworthy & their seed; As also your popish manner of visiting & pardoning the sick, wherewith this your book swarmeth, as with sundry peculiar errors, which were even a weariness to report much more to confute: Yea we doubt not but that these which we have named do appear to all men which have any spark of light in them, to be most gross Idolatries & heinous blasphemies, as whereby the honour which is due to God is given to Creatures, God is worshipped after the devices and fantasies of men, & not after his revealed will in his word, God's name highly taken in vain, the holy Scriptures profaned, the Sacraments sacriligiouslie abused, yea even the office of God taken from him and given to an impious Priest. If you doubt of any of these things let your Portuise this service book be but brought & tried by the word of God (whereas now it is set up as the Idol of Indignation & Dagons' stump above the word of God) and you shall find these things to stand thus & worse than we report. And now you should not think it strange that it is termed a piece of swines-flesh; Let it be brought to the old usual mass-book, and see if you find it not a Collop of that fowl mezeled hogg howsoever it hath lighted into some cunning Cooks handling that hath finely mingled & interlarded it to the policies of these times that it might please both sorts, aswell the new forward protestants of these days, as those that liked the old religion (as they term it) best; Innovation (espeacially to Christ's Testament) was then (as well as now by our polletique Divines) held dangerous to the Common wealth. Well as we said you shall find it a piece, nay a pig of that Swine, now grown to a greater age, even to th'increase that you see; And we doubt not, if you bring it to that beast the parent, it will acknowledge as much, yea we have credibly heard by some of no small account, that the Pope's holiness himself hath offered to ratify this Book, ministry etc. if so be we would receive him as our Archb: And this you know that swines-flesh was forbidden by God's law both to sacrifice & diet, It was an abomination both to God & man as then, and surely if it were so in the Type, it is much more now in the substance. Article 8. They say it is a greater sin to go to the Church to public prayers, then for a man to lie with his Father's wife. THe first is gross Idolatry & high sin against the whole first Table; The second is an horrible abomination against the Law of God & of Nature, not so much as to be spoken or thought of by any chaste or Christian heart, much less in this manner compared: But it is even shame to hear or repeat those things you are not ashamed to publish, much more which many of you commit in secret. Article 9 Those that will not refrain from our Churches, preaching, or service they give unto the devil and excommunicate. AS we meddle not neither have any thing to do to judge them that are a 1. Cor. 5.12. without, so receive we none as b Act. 2.41 42. 2. Cor. 6.17 members of our Congregation, but such as having left all false assemblies where God is not rightly worshipped, join themselves unto us to serve God together according to his word, and to lead our lives in his holy faith & fear: If any of these fall into c Rom. 16.17. 1. Tim. 6.3.5. Titus. 3.5. 2. Tim. 3.5. 2. Thes. 3.14 error, apostasy, Idolatry or any other known sin, and will not be reduced by Christian admonitions exhortations etc. thereunto belonging, such obstinate offenders then, we together (according as we are Commanded of God) by the power of our Lord jesus Christ (which he hath d Mat. 18.17, 2 Cor. 2.7.10. left unto his Church) e 1 Cor. 5.4 deliver unto Satan in the name of our Lord jesus Christ, for the humbling of the flesh, that their souls might be saved in the day of our Lord jesus; this being the last remedy God hath appointed, the last duty we can perform to them for their salvation: The neglecting whereof as it should be to their hurt, so should it be to the charged of the f josu. 7.12. & 22.16.17.18. 1 Cor. 5.6. Heb. 12.29. 2 Pet. 2.4.5. whole Church before the Lord, who is a jealous God, even a consuming fire. Article 10. They hold it not lawful to baptize Children among us: They never have any Sacraments among them. WE neither condemn nor neglect the Sacraments, being ministered by a lawful Minister to the faithful & their seed according to Christ's institution: In that we refuse your Sacraments it is for your wilful profaning & prostetuting them to all comers, for the defaults of your assemblies, worship ministry, and the heinous breach of Christ's institution etc. In that we have no Sacraments amongst us it is not by our default (whose souls gasp & bray after them) so much as by your barbarous cruelty & Tyrannical dealing with us, who will not suffer us to assemble not so much as to see one annothers faces by your goodwills, hunting, pursuing them abroad, persecuting, confiscating, shutting up close prisoners them you get into your hands: Wherefore we with the Prophet David, even cry out unto our God against such wild Boars as thus destroy the tender vines, against such cruel tyrants as persecute us into the wilderness, and keep us from the comfort of the word & Sacraments in th'assembly of the Saints by their open force & privy slanders. Article 11. They refuse to take an oath to be examined. WE refuse not reverently to swear by the holy a Deu. 6.15 jer. 4.2. Heb. 6.16. name of God before a lawful magistrate upon just occasion according to the word of God: But we have just cause to refuse that ungodly rash and unlawful oath, b Amos. 5.14. Zeph. 1.5. Matt. 5.34.35.36.37. Mat. 23.16 etc. by or with their book etc. offered & enforced by these BBs. at their pleasure upon every occasion to every one that cometh before them after the manner of the Spanish Inquisition, expressly contrary to the word of God, the Laws of this land, & derrogatorie to her Mats. prerogative royal, her Crown & dignity. Article 12. They will not marry amongst us in our Churches, but resort to the Fleet & to other places to be married by one Greenwood & Barrow. WE find not in the scriptures the giving & joining in matrimony to be an action of the Church, neither to be restrained or to belong to the ministers or Pastor's office: Wherefore seeing the action is merely Civil we see not why we may not after the a Ruth. 4.9.10.11.12. john. 2.1.2. examples of the godly in the scriptures marry in all b Heb. 13.4 1. Cor. 7.9. 1. Tim. 4.3. places, at all times in the Lord by the direction or consent of Parents, (unless it be by their own manifest defaults) before faithful witnesses etc. Neither have the men (whom you here untruly slander) taken upon them to marry any, or executed that office otherwise then together with other faithful to witness the same and to praise God for it. 3 Thou dost love Evil more than good, Lies more than to speak the truth. Selah 4 Thou lovest all words that may destroy, o deciptfull tongue Psal. 52. 5 So shall God destroy thee forever, he shall▪ take thee and pluck thee out cut of thy Tabernacle, and root thee out of the land of the living: Selah Let the lying lips be made dumb which cruelly, privily, and spitefully speak against the Righteous. Psal. 31.18. YEt as great pains as these men have taken by their close imprisoning, open railing, and privy slandering to convince our errors & instruct our Consciences, they have left out & not acquainted you all this while with the greatest heresy we hold, & that is, that her Majesty hath as good right to the personages, glebe lands, Bishoprics, Prebendaries, and all other cathedral collegiat Church livings, as her Mats. Father of most famous memory king Henry the Eight had to the Abbeys, and that it shallbe as greatly to the glory of God, the good of Christ's Church, the benefit of her Majesty & the whole land to dissolve these now, as the dissolucon of the Abbeys was in the time of her majesties Father. The Abbeys & these had both one original, they sprang all from one fountain; Now the scripture a jam. 3.11.12. Mat. 7.16. saith one fountain sendeth not out bitter & sweet water, men gather not grapes of thistles; As for b Nom. 8.18.24. Heb. 7.12. Tithes they belonged to the Levitical priesthood, and to the service of that Temple, and therefore ought now to be abolished. Set stipends have no stay to lean upon in the scriptures except c judg. 17. entire. judg. 18.19.20. jude. 11. MICHA his Priest help to prop them up. our saviour Christ d Mat. 10.8 9.10. 1. Tim. 6.8. & his Apostles persuaded to sufficiency but appoint not neither will them to e 2 Cor. 2.17 1. Thess. 2.5 condition for any certainty: this is the matter that boileth in their stomachs, & will by no means be digested, this is hit that toucheth to the quick, and maketh all the silver saints in this land aswell tithing priests as hired lecturers thus to bestir them, lest their portions should be reproved; They would gladly have their portions improved, the one sort in seeking to have personages impropriate restored, th'other sort in suing to have the Bishoprics reform by converting their livings from them to their servants the preachers; Both labour in vain, DAGON of the Philistims cannot stad before nor with the Ark of God, the head & the hands are cut of, the stump must follow after; The stone that was cut without hands hath smitten & broken their Image, even that stone which these evil builders refused whereat they stumble and are offended, 1. Pet. 2.8. zach. 4.7. Mat. 21.16. is appointed the chief of the corner; his poor saints whom they so despise & persecute shall bring it forth with shouting & joy, and crying GRACE GRACE. unto it, maugre all their turning of Devices; yea even the Children in the street shall welcome Christ into his Church saying HOSANNA to the Son of David, Luk. 19.27. when he shall take vengeance of his enemies, & of all such as would not that he should reign over them. That nation & kingdom which will not serve him shall perish, Isay. 60.12 and those nations shallbe utterly destroyed, for all the kingdoms of the world are our Lords & his CHRIST'S & he shall reign for evermore; Revel. 12.15 There is no counsel, nor strength, nor policy against the Lord. Bewise therefore now ye kings, be learned all ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord in fear and rejoice in trembling. Kiss the Son lest he be angry and ye perish in the way▪ when his wrath shall suddenly burn blessed are all that trust in him. EXPECT their other Conferences with all possible speed: FINIS. Faults escaped in the printing. for thruth read truth. & for wne read own. page 3. for aimisse read amiss. pa. 4. for them read then. pa. 11. for babtised read baptised. pa. 12. for note read noted. pa. 13.