A RELECTION OF CERTAIN AUTHORS That are pretended to disavow THE CHURCH'S INFALLIBILITY IN HER GENERAL DECREES OF FAITH.  
BY F. E.  Acts 15. It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us. 
AT DOUAI By the widow of MARK WYON at the golden Phoenix. 1635.   

TO THE RIGHT-WORSHIPFUL MY WORTHY FRIEND M. S. N.  
MUCH HONOURED SIR  
WHEN I received from you the last rich token, I promised to return a letter full of thanks. But being then upon a journey, found not means to send; and so failed in my duty. Whereby my obligation was doubled: to pay the debt, that first; and then, to satisfy for the fault. In discharge of both which, if you please to accept of these few printed leaves, you shall oblige anew  
Your thankful friend and servant F. E.   

To M. S. A.  
SIR  
WHen a doubt is proposed out of a desire to know the truth, I must not (being called upon) be wanting to profess what I have learned and do believe: but if it comes out of a curious humour of contradicting, I can dispose of my time better than to spend it in disputes. What your mind is, you reserve as your secret; yet not so secret neither but that I perceive something of it. Your deliberation, might I be of your counsel, should quickly be concluded.  
He takes the safe way that follows the direction of the Church. That Church I mean, which all times could point at; and which all Heretics have opposed. You know that neither 
a Mar. vlt. joan. 3. Apoc. 21. Tim. 3. Galat. 5. vide S. Aug. li. 4. con. Donat  Heretics nor 
b 1. Cor. 12 Col. 2. Gal. 5. Vide S. Aug. Ep. 152. & de unit. Eccl. c. 4. Firmissimè tene & nullatenus dubites, non solum omnes Paganos, sed etiam omnes judaos, Haereticos, atque Schismaticos, qui extra Ecclesiam Catholicam praesentem finiunt vitam, in ignem aternum ituros, qui paratus est diabolo & angelis eius. S. Fulg. de Fide ad Pet. c. 38. inter Op. S. Aug. t. 3. Of the grievousness of the crime of Schism see S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donatistas'.  Schismatiks (one wanting charity, the other faith too,) be in state of salvation. These, and such like things, you can weigh, yourself. And, where the mind is not ill disposed, the resolution is most easy. Prudence never sticks at such a matter.  
If your hindrance be that only which is insinuated, I shall willingly show you how you may remove it. Go the Catholic way: that, is secure. Seek no byways.  
Suppose you might be made Archbishop of Canterbury, upon condition that you would go to Lambeth on foot; and that there were some danger, yet no great danger neither, of losing your purse (without further harm) if you took the common way over the bridge. Would you stay, till winter, that you might go without that difficulty, in greater peril: and then, hearing Themse to be frozen, presently (before they durst venture who told you so,) take your journey over the ice? A wise man would not venture his life and all, in that manner; to save two or three, ten or twenty pieces: being presently to receive a thousand if he came to Lambeth safe, and ever after to live in great abundance. Yet your case is more desperate. You know that in heaven you shall receive at your entrance the possession of an eternal kingdom, with a crown of glory amongst Angels in immortality. The common way thither is the Catholic, which way if you take, you conceive the danger of being a little taxed in your purse; and you think you hear some tell you, there is an other way, but nice and ticklish: wherein those who speak, themselves durst not venture; because if it miscarry, soul and body and Heaven and all, is lost, by a fault of 
c Quisquis ab hac Catholica Ecclesia fuerit separatus, quamtumlibet laudabiliter se vivere existimet, hoc solo scelere quod à Christi unitate disiunctus est, non habebit vitam; sed ira Dei maret super eum. S. August. Epist. ●52.  Schism, which opens into a downfall that ends not but (where there is no end at all) in Hell.  
To venture your body over a deep river upon a bridge of thin brittle glass, and to venture your soul over Hell-mouth upon a ticklish opinion, which is worse? He that loveth danger (the Scripture saith) shall perish in it. 
Eccles. ●.  What speak I of an opinion? When your imagination doth cease from working, no bridge at all appears: you are but in a dream.  
But, were there two or three, who did (against the rest, and against the known practice of the Church,) avouch what you pretend, would you venture your soul (whilst worlds of learned men bid you take heed) upon their word? Perpetual torment among the damned spirits, is a matter of that horror, that wisdom would seek the safest way to decline it: and he that could see heaven a far of, with those inexplicable ●oyes that are in it, would think on nothing else but the securest way thither; and fear nothing more than to miss it.  
Were you to purchase a temporal estate or inheritance for your child, you would not venture your money upon a title, which the practice of the kingdom doth dislike and which Lawyers commonly say is naught; though two or three should tell you that it were a good title: much less in securing to your own soul an eternal inheritance, should you be contented to rely upon the Authority of two or three (were there such) the rest, with the general Spirit God's people, contradicting and anathematising such as proceed in that manner.  
That Catholics are against you, generally, in this point● you know. They communicate not with those who d● openly oppose themselves to the decrees of Counsels ecumenical. The Counsels themselves excommunicate and anathematise them also. And, as many grave Prelates and learned Divines as ever esteemed their authority sufficient to determine a Controversy and oblige men to conform their judgement thereunto, (who be innumerable,) so many do counsel you not to trust unto these few, (suppose you found them;) telling you that if you do you forfeit heaven.  
When a few, reputed Scholars, (were they many, were it a whole Nation,) hold a tenet that is against the Church, their Authority doth not make it 
Probabilia sunt quae videntur omnibus, aut plurimis aut sapientibus; & his vel omnibus, velplurimis, vel maximè familiaribus & probatis. Arist. li. 1. Topic. c. 1. Nonomne quod videtur probabile, est probabile. Ibidem.  probable. The truth of her assertions dependeth not upon the approbation of every one that is in her Communion: Much less, of others. The Pastors are to teach; and if some of them do chance to forgo the truth and leave it, there is power in the 
* You remember the practice of the Church in her first Counsels, against Arians, Nestorians, etc.  rest to define the matter and condemn them. 
Docete. Matt. vlt.  This Catholics do know; they be grounded; they take the secure way.  
The way which you take is temerarious: it is the same which Heresy doth usually take to spread itself. And in making choice of it you show in yourself the disposition of a Sectary. The Sectary finds an opinion avouched by two or three, against the common, and against the Spirit of the Church generally: yet, because it likes him, (for that it is easier to be conceived, or more agreeable to some fantasy that he hath, or better suiting to the liberty which he could wish,) he is content to ●hink the authority of those ●●o or three (though the ●●st contradict) sufficient to ●ake is probable: and then, iud●ng of the reasons and motives which they bring, as his ●●fections incline him, he thinks 〈◊〉 at last, certain. So did the brians; depending upon the authority, first of their levers; and then deeming their ●otiue (as that, pater maior me 〈◊〉) to be manifestly against the Church, and for them. Neither be the Leaders themselves (Arch-heretickes) without pretence of authority; they cite the 
d Fortasse aliquisinterroget, An & Haeretici, divinae Scripturae testimonijs utantur? Vtuntur planè, & vehementer quidem; nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina: per Moysi, per Regum volumina, per Psalmos, per Apostolos, per Euangelia, per Prophetas. Sive enim apud suos, sive alienos; sive privatim, sive publice; sive in sermonibus, sive in libris; sive in convivijs, sive in plateis: nihil unquam paenè de suo proferunt, quod non etiam Scripturae verb●s adumbrare conentur. Vinc. lirin. c. 35. Si quis interroget quempiam Haere●●corum sibi talia persuadentem, unde probas, unde doces, quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniversalem & antiquam fidem dimittere debeam? Statim ille mille testimonia, mille exempla, mille authoritates parat, de lege, de psalmis, de apostolis, de prophetis; quibus novo & malo more interpretatis, ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur. Idem c. 37. ubi ostendit eos à diabolo modum istum didicisse; Scriptum est enim.  Scriptures, ●●d glean obscure speeches ●t of ancient, good writers, which in show do make for them.  
When a man once takes this ●ay, he squares out his Religion to himself; or rather he runs out of all: from one thing to another, from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to less and yet less and less probable; till at last is he finds himself, most certainly, in Hell. Faith is a firm assent but his, (if well examined) is not so. It is not divine faith; he doth but flatter himself and deceive others, with a shadow If two or three tell him thate Council may mistake (though the rest avouch the contrary, he is content to think it may and hereupon, presently doubts of all, that is so defined Then further, proceeding i● the same (silly) motive; if th● whole Church avouch a thing yet so, as some two or three at some time or other, held th● contrary; he will not belee●● the Church neither, No, nor the Apostles, if any tell him they might err. A Rainolds, a Whittakers' authority, makes the contrary to him probable; and by that time he hath read their books, he thinks himself certain of it. But in the mean while, where is the faith of such a man? whereunto doth he give a firm assent? To the Scriptures? No: their authority who denied them, makes him doubt. To the Creed? nor so; the authority of two or three serves his turn, and there is nothing in the Creed that more than two or three have not refused. Arianisme, Nestorianisme, Sabellianisme, Eutichianisme, Pelagianisme, Lutheranisme, Swinglianisme, all great Heresies have had multitudes of abettors; whereas two or three, serve his turn. Where then is his religion? in his mouth peradventure: but in his heart, well examined, there is none.  
Others there be, not so ready to rely indifferently upon the Authority of any whatsoever esteemed learned; but determined extremely unto one. The Puritan for example, to john Caluin; whom he prefers before the rest all together. Wherein he shows himself as extravagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former. Among the many principes or Axioms which reason dictates to the Prudent, this is one, that, in matters of belief the greatest Authority must sway our understanding. He will not deny that this is true, he might as well deny the sun shines at midday; but his manner of proceeding doth involve a denial of it. The authority of a Council entirely ecumenical, is greater than the Authority of one single man. The greatest scholars have ever stooped to 〈◊〉: yet the Puritan rather believes Caluin, than such a Council. Yea rather, than all the known Churches in the world, though 
e Though some now dissent, as you for example, yet these points have had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as believed that our B. Saviour had true flesh and blood.  consenting. As, in the matter of the Mass, unbloody Sacrifice, real Presence. And what way is there, think you, to deal with such a man? or to what end is it to dispute with him? If you cite Scripture, he will rather take the comment of his Master john, than the definition and tradition however ancient, of the whole Church, delivering the sense of it. It is so in the point of the Real presence. And, in admitting the Books of Scripture too, he will be his own chooser; and will judge, himself, which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded.  

Vide disput. de Eccles pag. 304.  But who shall decide the controversy betwixt the Church and him, touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let pass for currant? The Spirit, no doubt. But, in whom? in the Church or the university of believers before his time? Not so. They might err he thinks; and so might all the Counsels of Bishops that ever were; and all the Pastors of the world, though consenting; they might all, he thinks, be deceived. Where then speaks the judge he means to stand to, when the Controversy is about the sense of Scripture, or about the sincerity of the letter? in whom speaks the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master? In Master john. So he believes; rather than he will believe that he speaketh in the Church.  
Now tell me, is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternal estate? to challenge to ones self, or his Master john, authority to teach and interpret Scripture, and to deny it to the whole Senate of Catholic Bishops and Pastors, whom God hath given to teach divine doctrine, and to keep the Church from wavering in such matters? and not only to them, 
Ephes. 4  in what age soever, but absolutely to the Church, without exempting the first Disciples, and Apostles? These for sooth, be the men that in the pulpits cry so loud, who disesteeming the whole world beside, obtrude themselves as masters of mankind, each an Oracle.  
I know you wash your hands; your words condemn their insolency: you will not seem to participate of their fault. But what is in your heart? Are not you too, one of those that abbet a private judgement against a public?  
You plead against the power of the Church to determine matter of faith in her general assemblies; that I see. And I know too, that you punish men for not conforming themselves to the determinations of one not general. Reconcile these if you can. And tell me, if I be not bound to conform my judgement to the judgement of a Council when it is perfectly ecumenical, what shall bind me to conform it unto one that is only Nationall? if the Decrees of the whole Church may be lawfully refused, what obligeth me in conscience and before God to receive the Decrees of your Convocation? 
Is every subject bound to be of his Prince's Religion? or is it lawful for him to subscribe against that he knows to be the truth?  Is England, since you began to teach, grown bigger than all the world? is a part (is was not of old so,) bigger then the whole?  
In way of excuse for your not subscribing to decrees ecumenical, you plead the Authority of some few men; (how uniustly, hereafter it will appear;) and shall not the Authority of fare more, and those great Scholars, excuse us in conscience for not subscribing to your private Articles wherein be many things generally condemned in former ages? To give instance in one point, that contains many. In your 23. article you determine thus, The Sacrifices of Masses in the which, was commonly said that the Priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead, to have remission of pain or guilt, were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits. So you. Yet was this Sacrifice, frequented 
f Missa abominatio in chalice aureo propinata, omnes reges terra & populos à summo usque ad novissimum sic inebriavit, ut proram & puppim suae salutis in hac una voragine statuerint. Caluin. Instit. li. 4. c. 18. See the Protest. Apol. tract. 3. Sect. 1. and in the Conclusion; to the judges; Sect. 6. & 10.  generally, when Luther began to make your Schism. It was avowed in the 
g S. Iren. li. 4. c. 32. Novi testamenti Novam docuit oblationem, quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis accipiens in universo mundo offered Deo. Concil. Nicenum 1. can 14. S. Cyrill. & cum eo Concil. Ephes. in Anathem. 11. S. Augu. Conc. 1. in Psalm. 33. Nondum erat sacrificium Corporis & Sanguinis Domini quod nunc diffusum est toto orbe terrarum. S. Ambros. de Sacram. li. 4. & 5 S. Cyrill. Catech. myst. 5 S. Chrysost. lib. 3. & 6. de Sacerdotio, & Hom. 17. in Epist. ad Hebraeos. His Liturgy is yet extant. And so is S. Basils' too. S. Gregor. Nyssen. Hom. 1. de Resurr. Praeoccupat impetum violentum, ac sese in oblationem & victimam offert pro nobis Sacerdes simul & agnus Dei. Vide Disp. li. 5 c. 9 & Coccium in Thesanro, t 2. li. 6. a. 4.  times primitive. And our Saviour's 
h This is my body which is broken for you. This is the blood of the new testament which is shed for you.  words, registered in the 
i 1. Cor. 11. Matt. 26. That it was offered for the quick and the dead, it is also testified abundantly. S. Epiphan. Haeres. 75 where he saith also the Church received it by tradition. S. Cyrill. Cathec 5. Pro omnibus oramus qui ante nos vita functi sunt, maximum credentes animarum iwamen pro quibus offertur obsecratio sancti illius & tremendi quod ante nos iacet Sacrificij. S. Chrysost. Homil. 3 in Epist. ad Phil. Non frustra hac ab Apostolis sunt legibus constituta ut in venerandis inquam atque horrisicis mysterijs memoria corum fiat qui decesserunt, noverant hinc multum ad illos lucri accedere, multum utilitatis. S. August. in Enchirid. ad Laurent. c. 110. lib. de cura pro mort. c. 1. etc. 4. Non sunt praetermittenda supplicationes pro Spiritibus mortuorum, ut quibus ad ista desunt parentes aut filij, ab una is exhibeatur ●ia matre Ecclesia. Lib. 9 Confess. c. 13. Meminerint ad altare tuum Monica famulae tuae cum Patritio quondam eius coniuge, etc. S. joan. Damasc. Orat. quod defuncti Missis inventur. Quod quidem citra ullam controversiam Catholica & Apostolica Ecclesia sine ulla ambiguitate retinet etc.  consuetudinis testem ●llum cito. The like appears by the Liturgies. Where observe that I reflect precisely, upon the terms of your Article, which condemneth unbloody Sacrifice offered by the Priest for the Quick and the Dead to have remission of pain or guilt. If this be a blasphemous fable, the whole world was in Error. So commonly was it said and esteemed lawful; and so universally frequented See further Gualterius his Chronographicall table, verit. decima. The Protestants Apol. tract. 1. Sect. 3. subd. 4. and Sect. 7. subd. 6. The Conference of Cath. and Prot. doct. li. 2. c. 24. angl.  Bible, being understood in their native, proper sense, do 
k What necessity there is to inquire into the true sense of these words (This is my body) will best appear in the after-examination of the diverse consequences of your own sense, to wit, your doctrine of transubstantiation, corporal and material presence, propitiatory sacrifice, and proper adoration: all which depend upon your Romish exposition of the former words of Christ. The issue then w●ll be this, that if the words be certainly true in a proper and literal sense, than we are to yield to you the whole cause. Morton Instit. of Mass. li. 2. c. 1. I omit to note how Luther who did impugn the Sacrifice of Mass, had his instructions from the Devil. as doth appear still by his own book de Missa Privata, p. 228 Ego coram vobis And p. 230 ●. ●n summa. Edit. Wittemb. anno. 1558. where he puts d●wne the Devil's arguments; amongst which one is against unbloody Sacrifice; Contra institutionem Christi, Missa usus es pro Sacrificio, etc. §. quarto.  confessedly make for, and confirm it. Now, should we subscribe to your Article, we should contradict all this. We should contradict open Scripture, interpreted by the whole Christian world, and by the 
l And this Spirit is the Holy Ghost, joh. 14. & 16.  Spirit in it. And whilst you solicit us so to do, what do you but abbet a private Spirit? and this too, importunelie, unseasonably; then, when you deny to the whole Church power to define the verity, even of this cause; or to declare the sense of Scripture touching it, in her Counsels ecumenical.  
I am not disposed to believe that a part is greater than the whole. The Authority of 
m England also before Caluin was borne, believed the Sacrifice of the mass; and offered it for the quick and the dead. See the prudential Balance.  all Nations Christian, moves me more than the Authority of one 
n Other Protestants admit not your Confession.  only, now divided and apart. Neither can I be persuaded that corpus doth signify a sign or figure only; or that bread properly, was crucified for my sins. I am not wiser than heretofore men have been; not wiser than the Church. I reverence her decrees, and am ready to be directed by her. Whether those you pretend unto, were so too, will appear in the discussion of the Controversy we now deal ●n, which doth concern the general Counsels wherein she declares herself.  
Of such Counsels, your fellows have questioned many things: as first, who hath power to call them? secondly, what people are to be in them? thirdly, who is to preside? fourthly, whether they be infallible in their decrees? fively which be such Counsels? The Controversy we are to speak of is none of these; but only what learned men, Catholics, have delivered & taught about the infallibitie of a Council, supposing it be entirely ecumenical: which supposition being premised, 
The four first, yourselves honour with the title of ecumenical.  [and it is confessedly a possible supposition,] the Question is this, Whether any Divines of the Catholic communion, have openly and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to look unto the Church, avouched and maintained of Counsels entirely ecumenical, such as were general ●nd approved, that in decrees of Faith, they might mistake and ●rre? We dispute not, you and 〈◊〉, now, whether this, or that, Council, be such a Council. That is another matter. Nor, whether such a Council [suppose it be, and define,] be infallible. But; what, men, Catho●ike Divines, have averred ●ouching the privilege of a Council general, entire, and ●pproued.  
The terms of the Questioned ●e remarkable. Counsels; not whatsoever; but, general and ●pproued, or entirely ecumenical. Divines of the Catholic communion; not Heretics. We know that Heretics re●use entire approved Counsels. Matters of Faith; not matters ●f Fact. Avouched openly; the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the judge.  
Your pretence is that some Divines have avouched their fallibility in matter and manner above specified in the Quaere. Which if it were true, [that I note this by the way,] the tenet of their Infallibility would notwithstanding, continue firm. The Church doth not at all times punish what ever she doth abhor: and negligence of discipline in a Superior, is a distinct thing from the laws or principles of a community Much less could it be overturned by their doubtful speeches if any could be found: and lest of all by obscure passages. Dark and hard speeches may be found in 
o Vide S. Hieron. Apolog. adu. Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest ut— vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur, innocenter quaedam & minus cautè loqun●i sunt, & quae non possint perversarum hominum calumniam declinare. vide S. Aug. de Praedest. Sanct. c. 14.  Ancient Writers, that seem to make against such tenets of Religion as you call fundamental; and some Fathers have doubted of, some ●aue denied, 
p Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 3. c. 19 Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19 S. Hieron. de Script. Eccles. & in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru. p. 664. See the Disp. pag. 431.  books of Scripture, which all now believe ●o be Canonical; wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-au●●oritie the like should have ●appened, the tenet of Assistance given to them in their de●rees of faith, being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture, and having for it 〈◊〉 more evident perpetual tradition than you can show for di●ers parts of Scripture which ●ou do believe to be divine, ●ere still (even by you in like ●anner] to be admitted and maintained: unless you think it awful to reject those Books al●●, because once doubted of or denied; and never to believe ●at, which might with a presence of authority, be opposed or contradicted.  
Thus I could answer, and ●are the labour to talk further of the matter: 
Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5.  but because you wrong some that be learned worthy Authors, and some Fathers too; lest you fin● adherents that will beleeu● you [to the prejudice of the●selues, and others] upon yo● bare word, when they s●● none contradict and confu● that you boast of, I will suru●● the citations.  
Our dispute in this matte● is to be of Catholics; it is [as b●fore was noted] impertinent to talk of others; and of suc● as in plain terms have auouch● and maintained what you pr●tend they did. We know th● some have been mistaken 〈◊〉 great matters, and yet continued in the Church, either b●cause the thing was not sufficiently brought to light, [〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuin● faith be not at all times equally proposed) or because they were ready to submit themselves, 
As in the Questions of the Canon of Scripture, of Baptism given by Heretics, etc.  and conform their judgement, as soon as the Church declared herself. We know ●oo, that diverse have been tempted in their faith; and of these, some have fall'n into Heresy or Atheism, whereof we have examples in Luther's preach; and before, in all ages, ●uen the primitive. Others ha●e discovered their temptation's, with all the motions of ●heir understanding, to and ●ro: concealing only the final resolution or event. Of which infirmity, some, (and not without scandal) have exhibited themselves by their writings, public spectacles to the ●orld. With those you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle; being to speak of such only (if any can ●e found,) as have openly denied, the infallibility above specified, and yet enjoyed the communion of the Church, notwithstanding such a known denial.  
She doth not thrust out of her communion, one, who doth only propose his doubts, to be resolved; nor yet, if by way of disputation, he venter's to far, but without avouching, especially when this is done with submission to her judgement: or, if he so conceal his mind, or utter himself so, that nothing can be directly proved against him. Secret and concealed thoughts, she cannot look into. Every one is to be presumed good, unless the contrary may be proved. As many as have exteriorlie communicated with the Church, are lawfully presumed to have received her tenets, unless it be made appear otherwise.  
Though it be true that some who live amongst us otherwhile, be not of us. Some ●o bear themselves for Ca●holikes, who be in their hearses Atheists, or Heretics. There be, no doubt, 
Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis. Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia. 2. Corint. 11. Nun ego vos duodecim elegi: & ex vobis unus diabolus est? joan. 6.  ravening wolves in sheeps-clothing some; and the Pastors drive them ●ot away, because they know ●hem not. The Disciples knew ●ot that one in the company was a Devil. We are here to ●reat of things manifest; and to ●he Church; and so fare, that ●hey might be legally proved against the men when they we●e ●e living, and exteriorlie enjoyed the benefit of Communion: or, are now to be seen 〈◊〉 their books, (books not censured,) so clearly that it is ●nexcusablie undeniable. Your ●elf, I suppose, would require no less evidence to condemn a man (and in so great a matter,) after death when he can speak no more for himself, than was necessary to 
q Reus non antè condemnandus est quam si idoneis testibus, vel apertissimis documentis, vel indicijs indubitatis & luce clarioribus convict is fuerit; aut propria confession, etc. Vide legem fi C. de Probationibus. & l. Qui sententiam 16. C. the poe●. Neq●e manifestò constet incurrisse in sententiam excomun: quod nullo modo potest occultari, aut per aliquod re●● edium iur●s excusari: etc. Extra. Mart V Adeu●anda.  condemn him when he was alive.  
To undertake this Question in the latitude that I do, is more than was necessary for the defence of a general traditions more than can be shown for diverse parts of the New testament by you received: but the powe● of the verity will appear th● better when it is found to hau● been so universally manifest and so commonly received that none, by the Church esteemed Orthodox in their ●●mes, have been ever known● (though there were still occasion to look upon the authority of such Counsels) openly to contradict it and avouch th● contrary. Neither could I well refuse (it is a duty in him that hath reaped benefit by their ●abours) to come abroad, and defend the just honour of Per●ons wronged, who be not a●iue now to maintain their own credit.   

APPROBATIO.  
IN hoc libro, cui titulus A Relection etc. nihil est fidei Catholicae, aut bo●●s moribus contrarium, sed multa quae ●eritatem Catholicam confirmant. Qua●opter dignum censui, qui praelo com●ittatur. Actum Duaci 22. Maij 1635.  
GEORGIUS COLVENERIUS S. Theol. Doctor, & eiusdem regius ordinariusque Professor, Collegiatae Ecclesiae S. Petri Praepositus, Vniversitatis Duacensis Cancellarius, & librorum Censor.   

Ex Disput. li. 4. c. 5. pag. 377.  
OFfer not to cite any known Schismatic, whose opinion is generally by all Deui●e● rejected; cite no book but what is at least tolerated in the Church: and have a care you prove that the man whom you cite, doth, himsef, directly and openly, assevere and affirm the thing in Question. Because it were but loss of time to speak of others: such as either had their writings censured when they came to be known; or durst not openly avouch what they would, to you, seem to say. There are degrees in leaving the communion of the Church; and the same party, at one time may be in it; and at other time, either out; or in such an error, as, if obstinacy were added to it, would take him out. Neither can the subtle dealing of any discontented person, if he chance to step over shoes, prejudice our cause, or be taken for the tenet of the Church, unless the Church approve it: and error it never did or will approve. So there, by way 〈◊〉 prevention; howbeit you were not pleased to take notice of it And in the end of the leaf are cited some 〈◊〉 Ockams' words, Whose authority you scan first; a● so will I, for a reason (not yours) Which Will quickl● show itself.   

THE QUESTION. Whether any Divines of the Catholic Communion, have openly and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to look unto the Church, avouched and maintained of Counsels entirely ecumenical, such as were general and approved, that in Decrees of Faith, they might mistake and err?  
YOU have undertaken the Affirmative and will be Plaintiff. Your instance is in Austen, Vincentius Lirinensis, Athanasius, amongst the Ancient: and in O●kam and Waldensis amongst the later. To the same purpose others do cite Cameracensis, Panormi●●● Stapleton, Cusanus, Clemangis, and Canus, and Baro who professedly disputes the matter, joins Optatus and Antoninus.  
Franciscus Picus is alleged some where too by the said Minister, reciting the Opinions of some of these men. What Counsels he speaks of, I do not intent to dispute: being to look into the Authors themselves; and out of their own Writings; not out of other men's, to learn their mind.  
You will not be displeased if I put the places down as Baro cities them: that such as have hi● book, which is public, may compare, and iudge● as they see cause.  

§. I.  
1. Ockam (in a book of his that is prohibited) says that some Christians, comprehending Heretics under the name, seem to think general Counsels, some, might err. 2. F● brings in behalf of those men, an arguments prove it: which argument is manifestly de●cient. In like manner he brings arguments prove that which he confesseth to be false; as thought this also to be. 3. He recites an opinion whereof he says he knew no abettor, th● speaks doubtfully of the manner of assisting 〈◊〉 and himself avoucheth the Authority of sincere general Counsels. He toucheth obiter the question, who doth approve and how, and who declares them to be general. 4. His proceed in this work discommended.  QVia omnes Christiani sentire videntur quod tota multitudo Christianorum haereticari non potest; quidam autem secundò quod nec Concilium generale: aliqui verò tertiò quod nec Rom. Ecclesia: nonnulli autem quartò quod nec Collegium Cardinalium: aliqui verò quintò quod nec etiam Papa potest hatetica pollui pravitate. Ideo de istis quinque quid sentiant Christiani cupio ut mihi reveles. Baro. p. 359. ex Ockam, dial. li. 5. c. 1. 
1. OCKAM. All Christians do seem to think that the whole multitude of Christians cannot become heretic: but some (Christians do seem to think) that neither a general Council.  
Here first is not determined what general Counsels those people mean; whether approved, or not approved by the see Apostolic. Se●ondly it is not said absolutely that they do think and maintain that Counsels ecumenical may proposed and teach heresy; but that some ●oe seem to think that General Counsels (whether some, or all, is not here expressed) may haereticari, or haeretica pravitate pollui; haereticate, (to keep his terms) or, be stained with heretical pravity. Thirdly it is not expressed who these Christians were; whether Catholics, or schismatics: And, in case an excommunicated person (seeking how to maintain Schismatical proceed) in a book not tolerated, but 
a Index lib. prohibit. Conc. Trid.  expressly forbidden, should, not avouch, but seem to think that Counsels, though general, might err; this could not make good what yo● profess to prove, uzt, that men 〈◊〉 our Communion, have, in their curra● works, openly denied infallibility to the decrees of approved general Counsels. Much less can the passage alleged serve your turn, if the word Christians be not here taken so strictly as your inference doth suppose; but so fare extended that heretics come under the name too; for than it may be true that some Christians do seem to think so, and ye● no Catholics think so: there being other Christians in the world beside Catholics, even in his opinion that said, (and was it not the same 
b Quaeso ut mihi reveles, an aliqui sentiant quod tota multitudo Christianorum valeat haeretica pravitate foedari. Mag. judaei, Sarraceni, & etiam Pagani firmissimè tenent fidem Christianam esse erronean. Disc. Non intendo quaerere de illis sed de Christianis; sub Christianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo. Mag. Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teveat. Ockam. dialog. par. 1. li. 5 c. 35.  Ockam think you) that under the name of Christians he did also comprehend heretics: who desired also in this Dialogue to hear the contrary Opinions, of whomsoever, Catholics, or Heretics; yea and sometimes others, ●hat no 
c Nolo ut quod tenes in ment, reveles: sed responsiones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque, non differas recitate etc. sententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum & Haereticorum, & interdum alia quae à nullo Christiano tenentur, licet possint habere Catholicos & Haereticos defendentes, te desidero recitare: sic enim multiplicius & efficacius exercitabimus studiorum ingenia. Idem c. 34.  Christians hold. This for your argument, of omnes and quidam Christiani, some Christians and all Christians.  una sola est Ecclesia militans quae contra fidem errare non potest, quia de sola universali militante invenitur in Scriptures authenticis quod errare non potest. Concilium autem generale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis universalis tamen non est Ecclesia universalis. Igitur temerarium est dicere quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest. Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam. dial. 
2. THe next thing objected is an argument of those some Christians, whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did seem to think might be proved; The universal diffused Church only i● unerrable: but a general Council i● not the universal diffused Church Ergo. In which argument the proposition or is Maior false, as our Divines do prove by plain testimonies of scripture; and our adversary's 〈◊〉 necessity must acknowledge a● much, unless they will oppose themselves to the Apostles and Father and Pastors of the Church, all together. For, if only the Symbolical or universal Church, diffuse through all Nations and times, hat● the privilege of not erring in matter of divine Faith, it follows, tha● the Pastors and Fathers and Apostles, all consenting, are not to b● relied on, as a proponent infallible since these be not the whole (〈◊〉 they never so glorious a part of the Church universal. Howbeit t● Question here is not of that argument or proposition; but, whethe● Ockam doth deny the infallibility of approved general Counsels; or, whether he doth name, or give other sufficient notice of, any Catholic that denied it. He names here none ●t all; neither doth he say that they were Catholics who seemed to think etc. and least any should suspect him, he professeth in the person of the other Dialogist to be of the 
d Quamui● firmissimè putem quod Concilium Generale haereticari non potest, tamen rationes pro assertione contraria libenti animo auscultabo. Mag. Quod Concilium generale possit errare contra fidem rationibus & exemplis videtur posse probari. Prima autem ratio talis est. una est sola universalis Ecclesia etc. (ut pag. 5.) Ockam. li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò solutionem apud ipsum innenies cap 9 & habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad undecimam.  mind that a general Council cannot ●rre in faith.  
The like proceeding you may observe in him elsewhere; as, in the last Chapter of this book, where he brings reasons (and leaves them without answer too,) to prove that the whole multitude of Christians having use of reason (pastors and people, men and women) may err against the faith; and that it is temerarious to say they will never do so; though he there confess this which ●e goeth about to prove, to 
(e) Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat. Disc. Licet nescias Christianum aliquem hoc tenere, tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris. Mag. Ad quaestionem falsam nulla ratio nisi sophistica potest adduci. Disc. Concedo quod pro assertione praedicta nulla valet ratio nisi sophistica allegari; tamen saepè rationes apparentes & difficiles ad soluendum pro falsis inducuntur. Vnde qualescunque invenire coneris. Mag. Quod tota multitudo Christianorum usum rationis habentium possit contra fidem errare, tali ratione probatur etc. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium est asserere quod nunquam tota multitudo Christianorum usum rationis habentium contra fidem errabit. Ibidem in fine.  be ●●lse (as it is indeed, and manifestly against the Scripture, Daniel 7. I say 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Ephes. 4. Apoc. 20.) and that he known no Christian at all (he lived before the Protestant Religion) that held it.  ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis omnibus in aliquo adversatur: tenens quod Scripturae diuin● contentae in Biblia, & eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus, & Universal Ecclesiae, atque Apostolis, absque ulla dubitatione in omnibus est credendum. Nullis verò alijs quantacunque doctrina vel sanctitate praepolleant, est in omnibus absque omni exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda. Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali si esset congregata universalis Ecclesia, no● decretis aut decretalibus vel assertionibus summorum Pontificum, nec Doctorum dictis, (sive fuerint ab Ecclesia approbati sive non fuerint approbati) est necessariò credulitas in omni dicto & casu absque omni exceptione praestanda: Licet in multis negari non debeant, & quoad multa Christiani ipsis credere teneantur. Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial. 3. par. tract. 1. li. 3. c. 4. 
3. THe third thing objected is, that he mentions an Opinion holding amongst many other things, that credit is not to be given to a general Council in every thing it says, and in every case without exception. Were this his own tenet, our cause were not hurt, for we do not maintain in Counsels of the Church, approved, much less in all Counsels that are styled general, such an unlimited and universal infallibility as these words import, in omni dicto & casu, absque omni exceptione, in all they say, and in all cases without exception, neither indeed doth Ockam there mention that 
* cited pag. praeced.  opinion assertiuè as holding; but recitatiuè as relating it: and this too, not as the opinion of any Catholic Divine (for he says there in the person of the other Dialogist, that he never before heard or 
f Si est aliqua opinio quae omnibus obuiet supradictis, ipsam audire desidero, ut mihi detur occasio intelligendi profundiùs veritatem. Mag. Est quaedam opinio quae viam eligens median &c. (ut pag. 8.) Disc. Istam opinionem alias non audivi, nec legi. Ockam. 3. p lib. 3. cap. ●  read it,) but as an opinion which a searcher of curious questions 
(g)  mihi detur occasio intelligendi profundiùs vertatem. Ibidem ut suprà.  cognoscam quod aliquid apprentiae vel veritatis contineat, ipsam intendo aliqualit tecum discutere. Ibidem. Nolo ut quod tenes in me● reveles, sed responsiones aliquas quae cogitari vel tene potuerint à quocunque, non differas recitare. Mag. Hoc p●cto ut omnia quae narrabo non aliter accipiantur 〈◊〉 quod aliquis quaestionum difficilium indagator po● dicendo computare consona veritati, quomodo ad pr●dictas instantias respondere contingat, ostendam. Vo● enim quod dicenda Fratri Magistro (Michaeli de C●na, Generali Minorum. vide prolog) & eius sequacib (Ockamo, caterisque) nequaquam imponas. Sicut praecedentibus multas recitavi sententias quae assertio●bus Domini joannis & suorum sequacium obuiant ●●nifestè; quas tamen Frater Magister & sui sequaces schismate contra joannem illi adhaerentes) minimè opin●tur: imò nonnullas impugnare nituntur. Ita in parte● tura operis huius (si tu volueris) plura referam q● Frater Magister & sui sequaces satagunt improbare. D● Quod istum modum teneas à principio acceptavi. Q● sententias contrarias quorumcunque Catholicorum & 〈◊〉 reticorum etc. (ut supra ad lit. c.) Ockam p. 1. li. 5. c ● Personam recitantis assumas, nec tantùm unam sed pl●res quando tibi videbitur, ad eandem interrogation● narra sententias. Sed quod tua sapientia sentit, mihi●lis nullatenus indicare. Idem in Prologo Dial. Affectas video) quatenus ex serie dicendorum nemo possit coll● quam partem dissentientium circa fidem catholicam 〈◊〉 putem iustiorem, quod tuae satisfaciens voluntati● cum alijs quae vel efflagitas vel affectas, seruare cura● Ibidem.  might invent and bring into discourse as an occasion to penetrate the deeper into the truth, which is most diligently sought when it is most cunningly contradicted; and appears more clearly in the understanding when all errors are distinctly remous from it.  
In proposing the grounds of that opinion (whose arguments himself ●ppon another occasion and in a li●●e matter, had before 
(h) 1. p. li. 5 c. 9 Nec ex sanctitate nec ex fidei firmitate Cardinalium (Episcoporum) maiori quam habuerunt Apostoli, est quod Collegium Cardinalium (Concilium Episcoporum) errare non potest, sed ex promissione Christi. Ibidem. Dignitas ecclesiastica nec sanctificat nec inobliquabilem in fide instituit aliquam personam, tamen Christus praeseruat ab errore contra fidem aliquod collegium habens aliquam specialem dignitatem; quem ad modum regio Christiana nec sanctificat nec inobliquabilem red●● aliquam personam, Christus tamen praeseruat collegium suscipientium religionem Christianam ne erret contra fidem. Ibidem. Ad decimam dicitur dupliciter, vn● modo quod Collegium Archiepiscoporum & Episcoporum non potest contra fidem errare, & isti conced●● quod praeter congregationem fidelium sunt plura colleg● particularia, quae contra fidem errare non possunt, scilice Collegium Cardinalium & Collegium Episcoporum. Aliter dicitur quod Collegium Cardinalium quantum 〈◊〉 aliqua est eminentiùs Collegio Episcoporum licet qua●●um ad aliqua sit inferius ipso; & ideo licet Cardinal● valeant eligi ad Episcopatus, poterit tamen Collegiu● Episcoporum vel ipsorum Cardinalium esse confirmatum in fide. Ad undecimam dicitur quod de sola Eccless● militante in generali asseritur quod non potest con●● fidem errare, cum hoc tamen stat quod sit aliqua Eccles●● particularis quae non potest errare contra fidem; Sicut conceditur quod congregatio fidelium errare non potest, 〈◊〉 tamen simul cum hoc conceditur: quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest. Ibidem  answered) ●e discovers it to apprehend that ●●e infallibility, (such as it doth impugn) depends upon some new 
(i) Eugen● ab Ammedera dixit, & hoc ego idem censeo haeretic● baptizandos esse. (Augustinus) huic respondetur; Sed no● hoc censet Ecclesia, cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concili vevelavit. Quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis, se● quia in vobis charitas salua erat in unitate permanebat● S. Aug. li. 6. the bapt. contra Donatist c 39  revelation; and then brings arguments against this way; whereas ockam knew and had himself noted ●●at Catholics defend infallibility otherwise. And that same Opinion, for of it I must speak and not of him, since he doth not own it, that same Opinion I say, maintaining as it doth, the universal Church present to be infallible, and the decrees approved by it to be of authority uncontrollable, so fare that none may 
(k) Est quaeda● opinio tene●s quod Scripturae divinae contentae in Biblia & eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus, & universali Ecclesia, atque Apostolis, absque ulla dubitatione in omnib● est credendum. Nullis verò alijs quantacumque doctrin● vel sanctitate praepolleant est in omnibus absque om● exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda. Ita quod nec i● Concilio &c. (ut supra pag. 8.) Ockam. dial. p 3. li 3. c. 4.  doubt of them, must acknowledge another way; for neither can this infallibility in matter of faith ●e attributed to humane industry; ●or will it (the opinion I mean) admit a continual dependence upon revelations, to be made always to his purpose.  
True it is that it seeks an answer to the argument of God's providence and protection, grounded in ou● Saviour's promise; ever labouring to ●●de new ways; but the issue is ●●ch as makes any wise man afraid to subscribe. So little faith it hath in jesus Christ, and his promises, that it ●eth (and by the mouth of Ockam) ●●at the whole 
(l) Multitudo Christianorum (dum tamen alij vel saltem unus fidelis remaneat) potest involuenti periculo haeresis & erroris (alijs exigentibus peccatis ipsorum) exponi. Quibus in haereticam pravitatem labentibus valet ille qui de lapidibus potest suscitare filios Abrahae, vel de aliquibus ipsorum aut de alijs quando voluerit numerum Christianorum augere. Idem 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Est quoddam periculum tantummodo imminens seu circumstans; & est periculum involuens seu prosternens. Ibidem. §. Cum autem.  multitude of Chri●ans, so one man remain sound (himself perchance) may be exposed not 〈◊〉 circumstant and imminent only, ●●t to involuing and vanquishing or ●●erthrowing danger of Heresy and error. In which case (quibus in Haere●●am pravitatem labentibus) it will have God, who of stones can raise Abraham sons, of these or others to make up his Church anew.  
You may further observe if you read Ockam, how the blind Opinion knows not where to take footing, or which way to proceed whilst it ●es stumbling on: We must not bel●●ue a Council 
(m) suprà pag. 8.  in all things; so it ●gins: then, especially 
(n) c. 7.  if they be f●●e in it, as there have been some ty● ten or twelve: then, it is not necessary 
(o) c. 8.  of every Council; then, it is not necessary to believe that a question of ●h is 
(p) Ibidem  always ended by revelations; then; neither 
(q) c. 9  perchance 〈◊〉 there be always a revelation made 〈◊〉 oft as a general Council will be he● etc. with so many limitations a● cautions, fortè, and semper, and q●ties. And again; it cannot be pro● by this (an argument there brought that it is 
(r) c. 11.  necessary to believe th● the determinations of general Counc● touching the doubtful meaning of h● Scripture have the origen of their true that way by which they were inspi● to the writers of holy Scripture, wi● much more of like nature. And t● enforced answers which Ockam fein● for it, to the grounds of the comm● tenet brought in there in part again that new-conceaved blind error (whereof I have related 
(s) p. 13.  one,) 〈◊〉 so unworthy of a learned Christi● that you may see looking on the● well, how, pretending to nourish he (on better advice) leaves it an●●bortiue; and makes against it th● confession: First 
(t) Concilium generale non debet regulariter occul●è seu secretè paucis scientibus celebrari: sed vulgandum est per universalem Ecclesiam, hoc est per omnes regiones in provincia in qua seu in quibus Catholici commorantur, generale Concilium convocari debere, quatenus omnes Catholici tacitè vel expressé consentiant, & quasi authoritatem tribuant ut ad concilium profecturi, eorum nomine circa ordinanda & definienda in Generali Concilio canonicè & catholicè atque ritè procedant; ut meritò quicquid catholicè & licitè statuerint vel definierint, universali statuatur & definiatur assensu. p. 3. l. 3. c. 13: quando igitur Concilium Generale ritè convocatur, & in omnibus catholicè procedit, quicquid fecerit, ab universali Ecclesia fieri est putandum. Ibidem.  when a gene● Council is rightly called and proce● in all things catholicly and holily (n●ther am I defending others) quicq● fecerit what soever it shall do is t● ●eemed done by the universal Church. ●he Catholic Church then, it see●es in his judgement, or in the judgement of the Opinion, for so we must speak of it since it wants an author; ●engaged in the Counsels decrees; ●nd consequently it much concerns him who hath the care of her, (doce●t vos) to take order, the Council mistake not; and so much ' that the ●edit of her (cui in omnibus 
(u) suprà pag. 8.  abs●e ulla dubitatione credendum est, if ●●e opinion take place which you tell us Ockam held) is ruined with the same lapse, if in estimation both are one.  
In the same place he saith that 
(x) Postquam acta Generalis Concilij per universos Catholicos populos fuerunt promulgata, si nullus contradicens aut impugnans apparet, sunt putanda ab universali Ecclesia approbata. p. 3. li. 3. c. 13. autem acta Generalis Concilij non fuerunt apud om● populos Catholicos diligenter exposita, non est dice● dum quòd tale Concilium Generale sit explicitè ab Ecclesia approbatum, licet si sanctè & catholicè fuerit celebr●tum, possit dici implicitè ab universali Ecclesia approbat●● Ibidem. Quod statuitur vel definitur in Concilio General non ligat universalem Ecclesiam, nisi per vniuersale● Ecclesiam fuerit legitimè diwlgatum: & ideò non est co●● sendum explicitè approbatum ab universali Ecclesia, a● tequam taliter publicetur. Non oportet autem taliter definitum singulorum auribus inculcare, sed sufficit ●ali● publicare quod nullus se possit, si in contrarium vene●● per ignorantiam excusare Ibid.  after the acts of a general Council have been promulgated amongst all Catholic people, (to promulgate them amongst Heretics he did not esteem it necessary) if then no man appears (he speaks still of Catholics) contradicting or impugning, they 〈◊〉 to be esteemed approved of the vni●●rsall Church. Secondly, 
(y) juxta Sanctorun Pat●● sententiam, Concilia Generalia, quae ritè, iustè, sanctè 〈◊〉 canonicè celebrata fuerunt, sunt ab omnibus Catholicis 〈◊〉 notissimè suscipienda, amplectenda & veneranda. Ock●● 3. p. li 3. c. 9  those Counsels which have been celebrated, underlie, rightly, holily, and canoni●llie, are according to the judgement of the holy Fathers (mark those Authors) most devoutly te be receaue● embraced, and reverenced by all Catholics. thirdly; if 
(z) Aut Concilium generale catholicè def●● aliquid esse credendum, aut erroneè. Si catholicè, nulli li● publicè negare, vel etiam publicè dubitare taliter defi●●tum. Nulli etiam licet pertinaciter occultè vel etiam motaliter de tali definito dubitate. Ibidem.  a general Cou●cell do Catholikelie (that is in his explication ritè, iustè, sanctè, canonic define something to be believed, it 〈◊〉 lawful for none to deny publicly, 〈◊〉 publicly to doubt of the thing so de●ned. Neither is it lawful for any m● stubbornly, occultè, vel etiam men● ●●ter, secretly, or as much as mentally 〈◊〉 doubt of the thing so defined. He is ●onne farther now by much than you ●n suffer; neither will you find ●herein these words differ from our ●●net; for we maintain not the infallibility of such Counsels as pro●●ed against that order which is es●ntiallie required in a Council.  
By the way; you must here distinguish Counsels; (if you will not ●ake this Opinion to contradict it ●●lf:) those which be sincere and approved be certain in their decrees; those that are not, may mistake. And if there be doubt of any, to which sort they appertain, it will ●●t have them obeyed. It doth also di●●nguish about the decrees of the for●●er sort, as others do towards Scri●ure; an explicit, and an implicit ●th. There is none in your parish ●eeues the Scripture all in every ●t and every literal sense distingue, explicitè: no not yourself ma●● Parson. And finally it distingui●eth a double approbation of de●●es, one is authentical, done by 〈◊〉 Pope: another private, by any that is a Scholar: Consentiens subscrips● but I should not anticipate.  SI quaeratur quis habet iudicare an concilia fuerint catholicè celebrata? Respondetur, quod quia non definirent aliqu● nisi quod potest elici ex Scriptu is divinis, ideo periti in Scriptures, & habentes aliarum sufficientem intelligentiam script●rarum, habent iudicare per modum firmae assertionis, quod 〈◊〉 finita abijs sunt catholicè definita Ba●o. ex Ockami dial. 
4. LAstlie you take occasion o● of his words, to question wh● shall judge whether the Counc● have defined canonically or no; 〈◊〉 which case we are not so ignora● as to run out of the Church to Heretics to learn of them. Neith● do we esteem William Ockam great an oracle, that, were his doctrine herein singular, neglecting bo● the 
aa) Quamuis omnes Episcopi orbis terrae praesentes fuissent 3 p. li 3. c. 9 per congregationem quae à multitudine fidelium Generale Concilium aestimatur. Ibidem.  Council, and the Chur● 
(bb) Et si quaeratur quis habet iudica●e an fuerint catholicè celebrata? Respondetur, quod quia non definierunt aliquid nisi quod potest elici ex Scripturis divinis, ideo periti in Scriptures & habentes aliarum sufficientem intelligentiam scripturarum, babent iudicare per modum firmae assertionis (fortè, assentionis) quod definita ab eis sunt catholicè definita. Summi autem Pontifices si non fuerint praesentes, sed tantum modo authoritate eorum praesentibus legatis ipsorum celebrata fuerunt authenticè, iudicare habent quod catholicè extiterint celebrata. Si autem Summus Pontisex praesens fury, sufficit quod authenticet ipsa. Ibidem.  adherent to it, we should g● learn of him what conditions 〈◊〉 necessary to the subsistence o● Council, and whether all were 〈◊〉 or no. Yet this is not the Question It is one thing to dispute whethe● Priest can consecrate; and another dispute whether you be a Priest. O● thing to dispute whether a gene● Council can define infallibly, another to dispute which is a general Council. The controversy we speak of is about the former, wherein catholics maintain the affirma●ue, and you shall never prove that okam held the contrary by his Dia●gues whilst his Dialogues are extant. 〈◊〉 fine if it be objected that he hath ●t expressly and professedly answered diverse arguments which he brings 'gainst Counsels, this will not con●de that he held against such as ●ere lawful and approved, and consequently that he did herein contradict himself: for l. 5. c. vlt. he being's arguments to prove that the ●hole multitude of believers, as ●any as have use of reason, may er● concluding 
(cc) suprà ad lit. d vide etiam quae habentur, l●t●h  it is temerarious to ●rme that it will never be: and ●se arguments as I told you once ●ore he leaves unanswered; not ●hstanding that in the beginning 〈◊〉 did acknowledge none but So●ticall could be brought: and ●t the thing was false, and that he ●ewe no Christian at all, Catholic or ●etike that held it. If you think that in his mind he was of that opinion, you cannot approve the Spirit, opposing all Christians and his own conscience too: If you do not think he was, then let not his seeming want of answer, or indiscreet and scandalous proposing of doubts, move you to judge, (neglecting the caveat he gave in the 
(dd) suprà ad lit. f.  beginning) that in them he delivered his own mind. Much less● should you adore this unhappy work as a piece heavenlie-inspired for the world's learning, considering how in it, like a serpent, h● rowles himself into windings striving still to hide his head; and tha● having turbulentlie snatched pen i● hand to maintain a Schism, he begins the work with the commendation of his own great 
(ee) Quod tua Sapientia sentit. Ibidem.  wisdom. For my part I should no● wonder to find in such a work● fouler errors than we speak 〈◊〉 hitherto. 
(ff) S. Hier. in Tit. c. 3.  There is no schism whic● feigns not unto itself some Heresy (S● Jerome says,) that it may seem iust● to have departed from the Church.   

§. II.  
1. Petrus Cameracensis reciteth diverse opinions, out of Ockam: whereof one is that of Counsels, already handled. 2. He said, in his younger age, disputatiuè not assertiuè, that the infallibility of other Church besides the universal could not be convinced out of Scriptu●re. What, he thought of the point itself, he declared afterwards. 3. He did not hold that the whole multitude of Christians, Clerks and (4.) Laics, might fall from the true faith.  OMnes fideles in eo communiter consentire videntur, quod tota Ecclesia sive multitudo omnium Christianorum, hae●eticari non potest, sive contra fidem errare. Baro. p. 363. ex ●lliacens●. Octava assertio est, quod etiam Concilium generale ●otest contra fidem errare, quia ipso sic errante adhuc staret ●●liquos extra concilium non errare, & per consequens fidem Ecclesia non deficere. Ibidem ex eodem. 
1. PETRUS CAMERACENSIS. This man (if the v●speriae and the Resumption of it, be his) is brought, first, to bear witness that in his time there were contrary opinions about the authority of Counsels. The reason why they call upon him is, because amongst assertions which he relates in his Vesperiall Quaestion, one is, that a general Council may err against faith. Whereunto I answer, first that we maintain not the infallibility of all that bear the name. Secondlie he doth 
(a) Recitandae sunt quaedam assertiones circa istam materiam plurimum differentes. Prima est in qua communiter omnes fideles videntur con●enire quod tota Ecclesia sive multitudo omnium Christianorum haereticari non potest, sive contra fidem errare. Secunda quod nec etiam Concilium Generale. Tertia quod nec Romana Ecclesia Quarta quod nec Collegium Cardinalium. Quinta quod nec Papa canonicè intrans. Aliae autem sunt quinque assertiones praedictis valdè repugnantes. una est quod Papa intrans canonicé, haereticari potest etc. Octava quod etiam Concilium Generale &c. Nona est, quod tota multitudo non solum Cardinalium, sed generaliter omnium virorum potest sic errare, & fides Ecclesi●e in solis mulieribus conseruari Decima est, quod tota multitudo Christianorum no● solum virorum, sed etiam mulierum usum rationis habentium potest errare contra fidem; quia hoc stante adhuc in paruulis baptizatis possunt saluari omnes promissione● Christi de fide Ecclesiae usque ad consummationem saeculi. Petrus Cameracensis Quaest Vesp.  recite assertions only in that place, and not approve them, as appears by his words recitandae sunt assertiones circa materiam istam plurimum differentes, I mus● recite certain assertions about thi● matter that are much different; or, as after he doth expound it, repugnantes, some repugnant to other, and, if in his judgement they be repugnant, you have no reason to conceive he doth approve them all. thirdly, he doth not name any Catholic author holding that assertion, which you speak of, or the rest which follow; but took them out of 
(b) Ex 1. p. li 5. capitibus 1. 2. 3. 7. 22. 25. 32. 35.  Ochams' Dialogues, whence he 
(c) Confer capita 28. 30. 31. 32. 34. & 35. cum Quaestione Vesperiali & Quaestione de Resumpta Petri Camer.  transcribes, and some times verbatim diverse pieces of these questions which you would make use of. Neither doth he omit to recite that opinion of all Christians as many as have use of reason erring possibly all together against faith, which Ocham himself had said was false, and the reasons for it, those which Ockam gives, he calls apparentes, seeming, yet himself in the end of this Question 
(d) Ex praedictis sequuntur aliquae propositiones corollariae: Prima est, quod semper in Ecclesia universali erunt plures adulti illustrati veritate fidei. Secunda est, quod semper in Ecclesia Vniversali erunt plures iusti formati virtute spe●. Tertia quod semper in Ecclesia Vniversali erunt plures electi inflammati charitate Dei. Prima propositio patet quia etc. Quast. Vesper.  contradicts it, and maintains the contrary.  EX sacra Scriptura non convincitur quod sit aliqua Ecclesia particularis quae regulae legis Christi semper conformetur. Baro p. 363. ex Alliac. Quaest. Vesp. Concilium generale pote● defformari legi Christi. idem p. 364. ex Quaest Resumpta. Ecclesia Romana quae distinguitur à tota congregatione fideliu● sicut pars à toto, potest haereticari. Ibidem ex eadem quast. 
2. THe second thing objected is, that he thought it could not be convinced out of Scripture that any Church distinct from the universal, is always free from error; whence is inferred that in his opinion it cannot be convinced out o● Scripture that a general Councel● is always free. I answer, first, we● maintain not all Counsels which go under the name of general. secondly it is one thing to say lawful Counsels are free from error in definition, and an other thing to say that we can prove this by Scripture▪ it is one thing to say the Epistle of S. james hath sacred authority, and another thing to say that by Scripture you can prove it. Wherefore suppose this Author had said in his younger days that he thought the infallibility of full and lawful Counsels could not be proved ex ●acra Scriptura, by Scripture, it doth ●ot follow that he denied their infallibility. thirdly what he saith in ●hat Question is delivered (they be 
(e) Haec dicta sint de tertia conclusione & suis adiunctis: & de tota ista quaestione solùm disputatiuè & non assertiuè. Petrus Camer. Quaest. de Resumptâ, sine.  his own words) disputatiuè, ●●on assertiuè; by way of dispute, not ●y way of affirmation; wherefore, if ●ou wrong him not, you must not ●ie he held that Counsels infallibi●tie (such Counsels as had all con●tions necessary) could not be pro●ed (yea and against a stubborn adversary sufficiently convinced) ●ut of Scripture. fourthly, this which ●as said not assertiuè but only dis●●tatiuè, he submitted to the judgement 
(f) Non est ergo quò securiùs fugiam quam filius ad matrens, filius Ecclesiae ad matrem Ecclesiam; etc. Ad hanc igitur confugiens & sua lege regulari ●●piens, me & dicta mea omnia suae & suorum filiorum tam ●sentium quam absentium charitativae correctioni committo: ●sub hac & alijs protestationibus fieri consuetis quas sup●co haberi pro repetitis, gratia brevitatis, ad quae●onis responsionem accedo. Idem Quaest. Vesper. in prin●●.  of the Church, therely re●acting or disavowing (according 〈◊〉 the manner of the schools, yet in ●●e) what in this disputation might ●●rchance escape amiss, either for ●●e substance, or the manner of his speech. And finally, being after much more study and reading of Scriptures publicly in the nature o● Professor, made Bishop and Cardinal he was called to the Council of 
(g) Acta Conc. Constant. Sess. 20.  Constance, and there wit● the rest of the Bishops, he sufficiently made known that he though all were bound to believe what 〈◊〉 general Council, and particularly that of Constance, did declare touching faith. If you read the interrogatories made 
(h) Interrogetur utrum credat, quod illud quod sacrum Concilium Constantiense universalem Ecclesiam repraesentans approbavit & approbat in fau●● fidei & ad salutem animarum, quod hoc est ab vniue●● Christi fidelibus approbandum & tenendum; & quoth 〈◊〉 demnavit & condemnat esse fidei vel bonis moribus ●●trarium, hoc ab eisdem esse tenendum pro condemnato; ●dendum & asserendum. Martinus quintus, approbante Ce● Constantien. utrum credat sententiam sacri Const. Con● supra 45. articuli, joan. Wicklef & joan. Hus, latam 〈◊〉 re veram, Catholicam etc. Ibidem.  there by th● Pope sacro approbante Concilio, y● will not urge him any more in th● matter.  TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum virorum p● à vera fide deficere. Baro p. 364. ex Alliac Qua●● Resumpta. Intentio autem mea conclusionis sicut patuit ●ctis ●eis erat quod data quacumque Ecclesia certae den●●ionis quae non sit toti congregationi fidelium generalis, verbi ●au●a Ecclesia Clericorum, Ecclesia Italicorum, Ecclesia Galli●orum &c Ex Scriptura sacra non convincitur quod semper sit ●liqua talis, sive consimilis denominationis quae Christi legis re●ulae conformetur. Idem ex eadem Quaestione. 
3. YOu conceive withal what is to be said in answer to the rest ●biected out of him, and particular●●e unto that of the Clergy where he ●eemes not to have then well reflected on those words of S. Paul who ●oth testify (and his testimony is in ●he Scripture) that our Saviour constituted and 
(i) Ephes. 4.  gave Pastors; and Doctors ●o the consummation of the Saints, unto ●he work of the ministry, unto the editing of the body of Christ, until we ●eete all into the unity of faith, that ●e be not children wavering and carried ●bout with every wind of Doctrine. The like we read in Esaie, upon 
(k) Esay 62.  thy walls o Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen: all the day, and all ●he night for ever they shall not hold ●heir peace. And other places there ●re to this purpose very plain, that ●●nnot be avoided.  
Neither did he find himself able 〈◊〉 satisfy the argument, taken from the nature of a Hierarchy, and the acts pertaining to it, that are always to be found in the Church whilst it lasts, that is, all days till the consummation of the world, which argument is there brought, and he doth endeavour, but could not find an answer for it. First he saith that supposing the whole Clergy should err against the faith, some one of them might have power to give orders, to excommunicate or bind in way o● jurisdiction, to consecrate, and administer Sacraments: and so saith he praelationis ordo remaneret in Ecclesi● the Order of Prelacy, which is, of Ecclesiastical Superiors to their inferiors, would remain in the Church as, also distinction of degrees; Sacraments and other rights. But his opponent would ask him instantly, ho● the distinction of degrees of Prie● and Bishop, of Pastor and people how the order of Prelacy, and powe● to consecrate, absolve, bind, an● preach; be within, if the Priests an● Bishops, if the Prelates and such 〈◊〉 have this power, be without? He answers; licet fortè non actu, tamen in p●entiâ propinquâ, though perchance not ●●ctuallie, yet in a near power; and this, 〈◊〉 passive power, for if the Priests and Bishops be without, the active is not within. How then is there actually 〈◊〉 Hierarchy, and the ministration before spoken of in the Church? he ●eaues it here, and goes to try 
(l) Secundo loco probat iste Magister secundam partem antecedentis sua principalis, sc. quod tota multitudo Clericorum non potest difformari legi Christi, quia Deus ita statuit Sacerdotes Leviticos &c. ●ō firmat per aliqua superiùs tacta, quia sequitur quod pos●et cessare in Ecclesia ordo praelationis & distinctio gra●uum & caetera contra Apostolum (ad Ephes. 4. ubi de Christo loquitur sic. Et ipse dedit quosdam Apostolos, ●uosdam autem Prophetas etc. ad aedificationem corporis Christi, sc. Ecclesiae, donec occurramus.) Imo quod defice●e posset sacerdotium Christi; Sacramenta & alij ritus Ec●lesiae etc. Ad ista potest probabiliter dici etc. Ad confirma●onē licet supra tactum sit de materia argumenti tamen ad●uc potest dici dupliciter. Vno modo quod licet tota mul●tudo Clericorum contra fidem erraret, tamen aliquis ●acerdos remaneret habens potestatem ordinandi, ligance, conficiendi, & alia sacramenta conferendi: & sic re●anent in Ecclesia ordo praelationis, distinctio graduum, ●cramenta, & alij ritus. Et licet fortè non in actu, tamen 〈◊〉 potentia propinqua. Petrus Camerac, Quaest. de Re●●mpta.  another way, which is, though no Clerks, at all remained, no Bishops, no Priests, in all the world, to consecrate, ordain, govern, preach, or exercise any hierarchical acts, yet the Church thereby should no● lose the power to have them, an● why? if none remain to consecrate preach, or make a priest? because though she could never have them b● humane power, yet by God's miraculous operation she might. And in fine h● concludes, that, though it be te●rarious to affirm that ever it shal● come to this, yet to deny that Go● by his omnipotency can thus reston 
m Alio modo dicunt aliqui quod licet omnes Clerici haereticarentur aut omnino nulli remanerent, propter hoc Ecclesia potestatem habendi praedicta nequaquam amitteret. Licet illa nunquam habere posset per humanam potestatem: sed per miraculosam Dei operationem: qui sc. diversis modis posset de aliquibus laicis Catholicis, Sacerdotes & Episcopos ordinare, & hoc suae Ecclesiae revelare. In quo casu omnes Catholici deberent taliter ordinatos à Deo, sicut veros Episcopos & Sacerdotes habere. Et licet temerarium esset asserere talem casum de facto aliquā● evenire: tamen esset etiam temerarium huius casus ●testatem negare. Quia hoc esset de futuris (in hypothesi per ●iraculum tantùm possibili) temerè divinare: & contra ar●culum de Dei omnipotentia impudenter impingere. Ibi●em. vide Ockam. Dial. 1. p. li. 5. c. 32. & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. ●dmiratione per move or quod isti praesumunt asserere, to●m Clerum posse falsitate haeretica irretiri: & quia vix ●nquam aliquis sine motivo assentit errori, aperias unde ●ti moventur pro opinione praedicta. Ockam. p. 1. li. 5. c. ●9.  a Hierarchy, or that he woul● if there should be need, were also temerarious. And no doubt he tha● of stones can raise up seed to Abraham, can without the ministry 〈◊〉 men if he think good, make infidels believe, and ordain the● Priests and Bishops; the question i● not of his absolute power; but whether by virtue of the present institution, there shall be, Hierarchical power in the Church ever till th● consummation of the world (Pastures & Doctores in opus ministerij do●● occurramus omnes.) The Scripture affirms it; and the same was intended by that argument for which h● could not find, though he we● ●bout to seek, an answer. And therefore finding himself in those ●raites, he thought it necessary to publish his protestation, that what ●e said, was 
(n) suprà ad lit. c.  only disputatiuè ●ot assertiuè: leaving us withal to consider how dangerous a thing it 〈◊〉 for scholars to read Ockams' Dia●gues, where is unhappily ministered ●ccasion of error, and whence he ●ooke many things which you fin●e in this writing.  TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum &c. ut suprà pag. 26. 
IT is objected further that he defends in his resumption, that ●he whole multitude of Clerks and lay-men may fall from the true faith Wherein he is much wronged; h● defends it not; as appears in the resumption of the several parts 〈◊〉 that ratio quinta §. 
o suprà ad lit. l.  Secundò prob● secundam partem antecedentis prin●palis, sc. quod tota multitudo Cler●●rum non petest difformari legi Chris● where comes in the argument before mentioned of hierarchical order and acts; and in the solution yo● shall find always laics remaining in the Church: and the same is al● manifest by his three propositions before 
p suprà ad lit. d.  cited, wherein he says the● will be always in the Church plu● adulti illustrati veritate fidei, plu● iusti formati virtute spei, plures ele● inflammati charitate Dei, many adorned with faith, hope, and charit● which all will not be women, 〈◊〉 less you will learn of Ockam th● explication which he suggests (〈◊〉 he doth many strange ones) el●● that is 
q Ad secundam rationem (ut in errorem ducantur, si fieri possit, etiam electi.) potest dici quod electi comprehendunt viros & mulieres; & ideo per hoc quod iuxta promissionem Christi tempore Antichristi remanebunt electi, non potest concludi quod illi electi ●nt viri, quia mulieres tunc poterunt esse electae. Ockam ●al. p. 1. l. 5. c. 34.  electae; men, that is, woe● chosen or elected: and then, as a ingenious proficient in his Dia●gues, make the like explication adulti, and iusti.  
You will recurre to the print or uppie, for an excuse; which plea ●ight be admitted in some others; ●t in a scholar that pretends to ha● read the Question in him, and ●●th urge his authority against the church of God, such a pretence ●th no place.   

§. III.  
Waldensis yielding to the Scripture a preminence in Authority, will have us depend ●on the Church for the sense of it. 2. She is ●o to declare which books are Canonical ●ripture. A speech of Canus touching Wal●sis his Opinion, examined. 3. When he saith 〈◊〉 Father's testimony hath abolished all He●●es, he doth not exclude the Authority of 〈◊〉 Church, symbolical, or representative. 4. ●e symbolical Church (he saith against Wi●ef) is not the Predestinated people only, but 〈◊〉 University of right believers spread over the whole world. 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot fail. 6. and that perfect ecumenical Counsels be infallible in their decree.  HAecipsa fides & authoritas Ecclesiae, quantum homi●● supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor divina legis ●●thoritati succumbit. Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est 〈◊〉 inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae & infimam ratio● fides Ecclesiae; Scripturas venerabiliter attollens & exhibeus, rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authorita● alligans zona Pauli. Idem ex eodem. 
1. WALDENSIS, saith, the autho●●tie of the Church is inferior the authority of Scripture. What this? will you infer that we therefore need not obey the decr●● of Counsels; or, that the Ch●●ches authority is fallible? Infallib●●tie may be in others besides Sc●●pture. The Apostles were not Sc●●pture, yet were they infallible ●nesses of the truth. The Church the pillar and ground of truth, tho● the Church be not Scripture. 
1. Timoth. 3.  Th● may be diverse Authorities infall● and one of them Subordinate to 〈◊〉 other. And so are these two, acc●●ding to this Author, as you may ●by the places represented in the 
a Quamuis fides universalis Ecclesiae invenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota, non tamen est ei●n authoritate par sed subijcitur. Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides ut est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum; quod non licet de ipsa dubitare, eo quod testimonium Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectum fidei Christianae, & legis latio scripturae canonicae. Subijcitur tamen ipsi, sicut testis iudici, & testimonium veritati: sicut praecon●zatio definitioni, & sicut praeco regi. Ib●dem Quod aliquis pater unus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo, saltem colore tuo decredere: quod autem poenè omnes quasi unus homo loquuntur, fidei robur habet, quia unitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis. Idem c. 25.  margin. One only, I will put here, because it serves also for that which follows. In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Book. Doct. Fid. he declares how the sincerity of the Church's testimony in matters of faith is believed in the Creed, (there, where we profess to believe the holy Catholic Church) and amongst other things to this purpose, hath these words; Before the written Gospel, this (in the heart of the Church) was the Gospel which jesus Christ wrote, and which the Apostles wrote in the hearts of men; and to whose testimony every one must stand (in the controversies) whether the text of the written Gospel be understood or taken by the faithful, or subverted by the Heretic: whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians, saying ●ow are our Epistle written in your hearts, which is known and read of all men, declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by us, and written not with ink but by the spicit of the living God, not in tables of stone but in fleshly tables of the heart. And a little after. Though the law of nature which men bear written in their hearts, be most certain, yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum, a most certain interpretation, in the hearts of the faithful succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times, forever, according to that of the Prophet, this is the testament which I will make to them, giving my laws in their hearts, and in their sense or mind I will write them.  
I must not omit to put you further in mind that in the place by you cited he saith, 
b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae & eius authoritas, quantum hominum supergreditur rationem, tantum fateor diuin● legis authoritati succumbit, sed tamen qua● minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Wa●d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae, semper credenda est si quandoq●● fallere consueta, in omnibus est suspecta. Ibidem.  the divine law were unto the faithful, 
* Non licet de ipsa dubitare, etc. vide in Addit.  of less authority, if the Church did not prefer it. And 
c Hoc est quod superius dixi, quantumlibet eminent Scriptura divina sanctioni Ecclesiae, ipsa tamen taxabe● se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis, & cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa, dicit Origenes Ibid●●.  howmuch soever the diuin● scripture is higher than the decree of ●he Church, ipsa tamen sensum eius ●axabit, she notwithstanding shall de●ne the sense wherein thou mayest not ●old otherwise, and whose interpretation to resist is, as Origen speaks, a capital offence. So he.  AD Concilium universale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo ani●o paterer ab haereticis non admitti, sed illud tamen doleo vehe●enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur, in quibus Tho●as Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc. fid. c. 19 Baro. p. 365. ex ●no. Addit. Baro, c. 20. & 21. 
secondly it is objected that he denies to the Church now ●●esent, power to determine which ●●e books of scripture. And for this ●●e cited three Chapters of his 2. ●●oke Doct. Fid. the 19 20. and 21. ●ut there I find it not. He doth in●ed hold that the Catholic Churh ●●d no other is able to 
d Et hoc est secundum dictum gloriosum de Ecclesia, quod sc. ipsa sola est cuius testimonium est tantae authoritatis & praeconij ut ipsos libros divinarum scripturarum taxare, & decorum authoribus certificare possit fideles, nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire. walled. li. 2. doct. fid. c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos & habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes & ab Apostolis propagata, testimonium certum reddit. Ibidem. Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credendam sub poena contumaciae. Ea dico quae praesens est, quae iudicia directa decrevit à temporibus Apostolorum usque ad praesens, vel usque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapientium atque docentium; ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae. tom. 1. doctrina 2.  certify ●hich books are scripture, and that ●●e can commend none in this na●●re, but such as were written in ●●e Apostles 
e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebant Ecclesijs, ducere scripturarum volumina ad perfectum: tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo, & non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritatem sacri canonis nisi qui de illis temporibus Apostolicis agerent, & tunc temporis essent, quia aliter non facerent de divinis rebus fidem summam. Idem li. 2. c. 20. ut suprà.  days: but this is ●t to deny the present Church or Council, power to propose again the same. There were, notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diverse parts of the new testament (which approbation came not, at least so manifestly, to the notice of all,) some who doubted of, 
f Vide Disp. pa. 431  or denied, them; as for example, the Apocalyps and S. judes' Epistle, and the later o● S. Peter: yet you yourselves do, and Waldensis did receive them a● the hands of the Church by tha● part which then lived when he did Neither doth Canus say that h● denied a Council power to propose books in the manner we no● speak of; but he says only, tha● he seems to be of those who deny th● power to define which book is Canonical, to belong chiefly to a gener● Council. It is one thing to say th● a Council can do it; another, t● say the power belongs chiefly 〈◊〉 the Council; as you will percea● by the declaration of the next plac● objected. Waldensis, as Canus wor● import, seemed to deny, not the fo●mer, but the later: neither doth 〈◊〉 say that he denied it, but that 〈◊〉 did seem to do so, some things (th● philosopher's use to say,) do seem 〈◊〉 be, and are not; and some thing ●emes to one, otherwise many ti●es, then to an other. Had it been so ●deed, I make no question but that ●ou who have been diligent in your ●inde to seek in him what might ●e brought against us, would not ●aue omitted to relate the words.  
When you seek for them next, ●ou will find in him, first (as I said ●efore) that in his exclusive he spea●es of books not written in the Apostles time or before; to which purpose he 
g Waldens'. li. 2. fid. doc. c. 20.  brings the place of scripture, Dominus narrabit in scriptures ●opulorum & principum horum qui ●uerunt in ea, with S. jeroms' Comment on it, wherein are these words, ut exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud ●osteà dicitur, abscindatur, non habeat ●osteà authoritatem. And to the same menour he himself a little after, let us ●ote the differences of Scripture, because the scripture or writing only of ●he Princes, that is, of the Apostles, hath after our lord, the crown of authority; I mean, of canonical authority; for the saying of the Saints which followed them have their authority, b● not canonical. secondly whereas 〈◊〉 might be objected that the Church in a general Council might wri● a book and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 scripture to be among other book● of holy writ, since S. Gregory th● great doth profess to honour the● as the Gospels, in those words, 
h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti, epist. 24. & citatur in Decret. d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot. Ibidem.  Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros, 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia suscipere & venera●me fateor, Waldensis there answer to this argument, and expounds th● words of S. Gregory. thirdly, because it might again be obiecte● (out of the decrees whence the former objection was taken) that 
i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana. d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de libr●s recipiendis & non recip●ēd●s; ubi scripturarum libros in authoritate ple●●r●a quomodo sint habendi denunciat non ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat. walden. ubi supra.  Pelagius the Pope seems to determine what books are to be received into the canon, and what not; he answers with a distinction, which doth explain his mind, and dot● suffice to stop your mouth whe● occasion require, Scripturarum lib● saith he, in authoritate plenaria qu● modo sunt habendi denunciat, non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per scipsum instaure That is, in brief; he doth not give but declare, their sacred and diuin● ●thoritie. And the same, the Church 〈◊〉 all times, might and may do, whensoever there shall be cause. ●hey were by the holy Ghost in●red, and written by the Apostles ●d Princes of the Church, qui fue●t in ea; and were approved by them 〈◊〉; but it hath been since necessary to declare some of them; to give ●timonie that they be divine; and ●s testimony the Church still can ●e. Neither is our Saviour offended with her testimony given to 〈◊〉 word, who was pleased that she ●ould give testimony of him●fe. Of which matter this author ●th much in the former Chapters, ●eciallie the eighteenth. fourthly, 〈◊〉 doth esteem the judgement of 〈◊〉 Pope, and of a perfect Council ●e infallible as you will hear be●e we leave him; and therefore ●ch more is he to be esteemed to ●eld this honour to the whole, whe● they be. All which being conferred, that which you did urge out 〈◊〉 Canus so appears, that it is but a ●ere videtur; without an est, vn● it.  HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel abolevit, ipsa sc. professio concors sanctorum Patr● secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testi●nium Christi verbis, & consuetudini primitive. Baro p. 3● ex walled. to. 3. de Sacramentalibus; doct. 3. 
3. thirdly, it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibility from Counsels, and from the present Church because he saith that the unanime profession of the holy Father's giu● testimony according to the distance● their times to the 
* Latiùs patet verbum, quàm scriptura.  words of Christ 〈◊〉 the primitive custom, is the o●● Christian engine which hath once ●●lished all Heresies. Whereunto I answer, first, that he speaks with● exclusion of the Church presents each heresy; for it is well know● that the Church which did abo●● Arianisme, and Nestorianisme, 〈◊〉 the rest of the heresies before 〈◊〉 times, was that Church wh● known of them; and that she di● by her Pastors; and for the most p● in Counsels, though not without 〈◊〉 censent of that part of the Chu●●● and those her Pastors which li●● in the precedent ages; which o● 〈◊〉 or agreeable profession, was ●nd, partly by their books, as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Counsels appears ●his day; and partly by the tradit of the particular Church's whe● they had lived and died. Which ●●nner the Church doth still observe in condemning heresies, as they ●se, joining her present Authority to that of the precedent ages; ●●ose mind she doth inquire in ●●e manner; that so, by consent of 〈◊〉 whole, still, errors be condem●d. Neither is it necessary to find ●at which she doth at any time sopose, universally professed by all afore, in plain terms, and explicit or to find it in all books of tho● times; the Church informer ages ●d not so; we take the same course ●at she then did. secondly you must ●tend unto the words cunctas abole●e hath abolished all; No one Coun●ll, no one part, as that which lived 〈◊〉 the second age, or that which li●ed in the third, or fourth, hath abo●hed and destroyed them all; but ●●e whole hath done it. thirdly that ●la, is not 
* If sola be taken as you would have it, what will become of your trial by scripture only.  captiouslie to be stood upon, lest you wrong the same Author, who never excluded the Symbolical Church for whose testimony 
k so. 3. doc. 3. & tomo 1. li. 2. ca 18.19.20. etc.  he pleads so earnestly, both i● the same place, and in his secon● book Doct. Fid. in many chapter● proving it (its testimony I mean to be contained in the Creed: y●● the Fathers (of whose consent 〈◊〉 speaks in the place by you hee● urged) be not the symbolical Church properly; but only, a par● of it. And in like manner, whe● speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she only whose testimony is of so great 
l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. ut suprà ad lit. d.  authority tha● she can certify who are author's o● the books of scripture, that so● doth not exclude another authority that is within; (for example, th● unanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speaks here in the words objected; their authority were sufficient to certify the same as you may see by him, To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to. c. 26. and 
m Apudomnes Catholicos valet & ligat una sententia concors patrum: maximè autem temporis longaeu● & patrum successione sirmata, ita ut locum fidei habeat. De quacre ●enda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam. walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas, & omnes tractatus & definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patrum sententia ab ipsis Apostolorum sedibus usque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara. In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum, id est, ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo nova & vetera. li. 2. c. 25.  else where,) but it excludes authority Without. fourthly he doth no● exclude general Counsels▪ by th● Christian world approved; and h● ●t should, in Saint Augustine's ●es, have refused to subscribe to ●h authority, or disputed against ●t which the universal Church ●hat age believed and taught; he ●t would not have believed what ●s by so great authority proposed, ●d been thought mad rather then ●rthie the name of man. fively, ●her doth he exclude from infal●litie, and power to abolish he●es, the Gospels, and other parts scripture; and yet these be not ●t instrument or engine which he ●akes of; so that you cannot build 〈◊〉 argument on those words, to ●e infallibility away from all but 〈◊〉 Fathers. Sixthly, notwithstan●g that Counsels, and the present ●urch, are infallible, it may be said ●the consent of the Fathers or ●he whole symbolical Church, ●h abolish all heresy; because faith ●re readily gives assent unto that ●ch is so universally proposed. ●derstandings (not so well dispo● before,) do quickly stoop in 〈◊〉 case, to give reverence to the ●h; and such as do not, are condemned of all; and so confounds that they dare no more openly p●fesse their error: whence it co● to pass, that none making este● either of the doctrine or of th● who stubbornly do persist in it, degrees it is abolished. And this one of those glorious prerogati● which Waldensis so much comme● in the Church. Besides the forest readiness in the understanding wh● it is by grace well disposed, or 〈◊〉 less repugnance to render obedie● when it cannot with any show p●tend reason for the refusal, there d● appear too more fully in t● proponent the power of vni● which is in itself a disposition more plentiful participation of 〈◊〉 spirit; and brings with it grea● force to conquer opposition. Vnd●standings well disposed, yield p●sentlie when the Council speak● when the present Church hath ●ceaued, and universally appro● the Council, there is ex parte s●cti, more adhesion; and yet m● when the consent of all former a● is added and united: and more 〈◊〉 there was in those that had, 
Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti.  as the schoolmen speak, evidentiam in ●ttestante. S. Mark knew the Gos●ell which he wrote, to be true, yet, ●hat the faithful more easily might ●eleeue it, he had it 
n Vide to. 1. doct. 3. & to. 3. li. 2. c. 20. & S. Hieron. Catol. script. in Marco.  approved, ●s S. Hierom doth relate, by S. Pe●er. S. Paul knew the truth in the question moved at Antioch about circumcision, yet to make the cre●ibilitie more appear and more convincing, he went with it to the Coū●ell at Jerusalem where it was 
o Act. 15.  ●efined. And the Pastors there known too, what was the truth, yet ●or the greater weight of Authority they added testimonies of Scripture. The scripture many times ●rings testimonies of scripture for confirmation, as this Author showeth excellently to. 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Saviour himself in confirmation of his resurrection cited Moses and the Prophets. When parts ●re united, Bishops in Council, particular Churches in the universal; whole ages in the Symbolical; ●ater with most Ancient; all under ●one eternal Word becoming one speaker, and uttering in the language of all Nations, as it were with one mouth, in one spirit, one and th● same thing; no man that perceives it, morally can, dissent. This proponent hath a commanding powe● over a wise man's understanding; an● it is a great engine to confound error; in which great engine he tha● should deny there were many particular engines able to confounded Heresy, wrongs diverse particular in the company, unless you esteem it no wrong to deny that honour and ability to Prophets and Apostles.  ECclesia universalis habet fidem indefectibilem, non q●dem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties err● percepimus, etc. Baro p. 366. ex walled. to. 1. li. 2. c. 19 
4. fourthly, to the same purpose● of removing infallibility fro● the present Church, and Councell● he is cited out of another place speaking thus. The universal Chur●● hath faith which cannot fail, not indeed assembled in a general syn● which we have understood to ha● failed sometimes etc. In which cita●n, abruptly broken of for aduan●ge, the Author's speech is man●d, and the parts (such as be re●rsed) are ill put together; so that 〈◊〉 intent and meaning cannot be ●ceaued; as the learned reader ●y observe by looking on his ●rds, related in the (p) addition. 
q Etsi lex naturae certissima est quam ge●t homines scriptam in cordibus suis ut refert Apost. ●. 1. multo magis lex Christi habet certissimum inter●amentum suum in cordibus fidelium succedentium sibi 〈◊〉 ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae & temporibus Apostolorum vs●in sempiternum, secundum quod per Prophetam dicit ominous, hoc testamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges ●s in cordibus eorum & in sensibus eorum scribam eas. Quod ●onens Ambrose, o verè inquit testator aeternus qui ●ris in cordibus leges affigit suas, & scribit in sensibus, ●ihil aliud cogitare nisi divina praecepta possimus, 〈◊〉 aliud sentire nisi Dei oracula debeamus. Walden. li. ● 8 and continuing his discourse; Haec est, says he, Eccle●●ymbolica, Ecclesia Christi inquam Catholica, & Aposto●●mater credentium populorum, quae fidem habet indefect: bi● ●ecundum promissum Christi ad Petrum qui tunc fi●m gessit Ecclesiae. Ego rogavi pro te Petre ut non deficiat ●tua. Non est ergo specialis Ecclesia non Africana ut ●atus dixit. Nec utique particularis illa Romana; sed ●ersalis Ecclesia, non quidem in generali synodo con●ata, quam aliquotiens errasse percepimus, velut illa ●ninensis congregata sub Tauro praefecto, & illa Con●inopolitana sub Iustiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae secundum Bedam, & quaedam aliae: sed est Ecclesia● Christi Catholica per totum mundum dispersa à baptismo Christi per Apostolos & caeteros successores eorum a● haec tempora devoluta, quae utique veram fidem continet, & testimonium Christi fidele, sapientiam praesta● paruulis, inter extremos errores stabilem retinens veritatem. c. 19 in principio.  That others also may conceive the same; it is to be observed that Waldensis is disputing there against Wickleff, about the Church which is the Creed we profess to believe and is therefore by him called th● Church symbolical. Wickleff considering that the faith of it is to be indeficient, it being still true to say there is such a Church or congregation would have it to be the 
r Quod Ecclesia nostra symboliba est Ecclesia Catholica. Titulus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter (wickleffus) contra Papam & pastors Ecclesiae sub titulo iustae app●lationis Ecclesiae Christi quae est obiectum fidei Christ●nae, de qua articulus est in symbolo Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam. Difficultas autem eius est ista. Quan● credere debemus Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam ta●quam fidem, & iterum credere debemus quòd quodli● membrum istius Ecclesiae sit praedestinatum ad gloriam, credere debemus quod iste Papa vel Episcopus sit me●brum Ecclesiae, credere debemus quod repugnat ipsum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere. Haec Wicklef. Actor. Sub hoc globo verborum, unà cum praesumpto s●● Ecclesia symbolica etc. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo di●cultas, de quidditate huius Ecclesia symbolicae, quam vti● credere debemus etc. Ibidem.  Predestinate only who do finally persever in the faith. Waldensis over and above an indeficiencie, doth avouch (and according to Scripture, Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. joan. 15. & 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12. Ephes. 4. etc.) that it is to teach and give testimony of the truth, in that sort that all may learn of it. And therefore it is to be a visible Congregation 
* Ecclesia est fidelium congregatio. It involues a Hierarchy, Ephes. 4 Who told Wickleff that all the believers, the predestinated only excepted, do fall from the faith before they die?  or Society, Hierachicallie disposed. Whence he determines it to be, according to the words of the Creed itself, the Catholic or Universal Church, that is, the wholeranke or company of the faithful people successively descending from the first assembly made by Christ in the bank of jordan, until our times, and from henceforth until the end of the world; and reaching into all parts of the world wheresoever the shining testimony of the faith of Christ the head and author, is kindled. 
Ibidem.   
In which description, by him there proved out of scripture, and confirmed by the testimony of S. Augustine, he hath comprehended a twofold universality; one loci, of place; another temporis, of time: as is more distinctly there specified in the same chapter by himself. And the benefit of this universality he● saith, is, ut (t) sciamus discretè quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia veramque haben● doctrinam fidei; that we may know distinctly (as, a community so universal is found easily) which is the true Church of Christ and having the true doctrine of faith. Heresies are limited, as he shows, for time; and place: but the Symbolical Church, is both ways universal. And to it when heresies arise, 
u Ad hanc Ecclesiamergo quae per totum mundum unam habet doctrinam Apostolicam, omnes fideles intonante nova haeresi debent habere recursum; ipsi enim (Apostoli) cum una sana doctrina, adhuc manente, imbuerunt totam Ecclesiam, & ob hoc tota Ecclesia Catholica etiam Apostolica nominatur. Walden. c. 18.  fideles omnes debe● habere recursum, all faithful must have recourse, as he saith in the next Chapter. The reason is, because she hath 
x c. 18. ut suprà ad lit. q.  in her heart the Gospel, written by the holy Ghost, together with a most certain interpretation of the Christian law; and also gives 
y Addit adhuc Ecclesia symbolica, id est, quam tenem● in dubijs credere sub poenae perfidiae: addit enim Ecclesi● sic dictae communiter (id est, communi rationi Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 omnibus Ecclesijs abstracta) rationem unius fidelis & indu●bitantis testimonij: & hoc ratione qua est una. Sic enim ●credimus unam sanctam Ecclesiam, non quidem gente vel patria, sed professione unam & fide, de qua (fide) unicum ●cunctis gentibus reddit testimonium. cap. 18. Name & hoc est credere Ecclesiam Catholicam, credere eam habere veram ●fidem de Deo & vera Sacramenta. Ibidem. Ratione ergo qua Ecclesia est obiectum fidei Christianae, sic facit testimonium abundanter de Christo cuilibet eam vel secundum eam credenti. Ibidem. Definita veritas antequam habeatur pro definita plus exigit, sc. ultra authoritatem Scripturae & Spiritus sancti revelationem, fidem in dictis assumentis quod non extorqueat, & industriam quod per elusionem non seducatur aut non fingat; & hoc ipsum est quod sponsus ille Ecclesiae sponsae reliquit in dotem dicens. Ecc●●go vobiscum sum omnibus diebus. Non dixit recum sum, sc. cum aliqua singulari persona, sed vobiscum sum, cum to●a Ecclesia Catholica & Apostolica quae seduci non potest ●ec seducere, & habet fidele testimonium de Christo, & no●it omnia mysteria Sponsi sui. cap. 19 vide etiam suprà pag. 49.  certain testimony to the truth.  
We cannot address ourselves to the Predestinate, for instruction, ●or absolution, for orders; we know not who they be, nor how to find them out. They be not the Symbolical 
* wickliffs Argument, The predestinate do persever in the faith, Ergo they be the Symbolical Church; Is like this; A man's soul is rational, Ergo a man's soul is a man.  Church, they have not all ●he conditions of it. Neither is any particular Church, or Congregation; The Church symbolical: no, not a General Council. A Council is not ●till in being; they be celebrated only sometimes, whereas the Symbolical Church, is to be still. So likewise is, the Church diffused or Universal, Dan. 2. Matth. 16. joan. 14. Ephes. 4. And, against a Council, or a particular Church, he that were disposed to cavil would pretend that faith were not always in it, and it therefore at that time, no Church; (for Ecclesia is fidelium congregatio;) whereas the Church symbolical is in 〈◊〉 times, never failing: which thing notwithstanding doth agree well unto the Church universal; which is in 〈◊〉 times existent, and in faith, indeficient Esay 59 jerem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. & 28. joan. 14. & 16. Ti● 1. ep. 3. c. Ephes. 4. She only, hath 
* The predestinated precisely have them not all. See the Disp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6.  〈◊〉 the conditions of, and indeed is, th● symbolical Church.  
This construction of the word● of Waldensis, to one that reads th● whole discourse in him, is plai● and obvious. This, which hitherto I have described, This, I say, th● Catholik and Apostolical Church 〈◊〉 Christ, the mother of believing people which hath faith indeficient, according to the promise of Christ to Peter 〈◊〉 ●hen did bear the figure of the Church, (I have asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not fail) is the symbolical Church. Having established this tenet, he presently draws from it an inference, Non est ergo etc. that, being the universal Church, it is not any particular; as the African, or the Roman particular Church, or Diocese. 
vide Disput, pag. 619. ex Innoc. 3.  These are no more the symbolical Church then particulars are the universal. Neither it is a general synod; such have erred sometimes, one at Ariminum; another at Constantinople; and some others. But it is the Catholic Church of Christ dispersed over all the world, come down from the baptism of our Saviour by the Apostles and others their successors to th●se times; which Catholic Church verily doth contain veram fidem true faith (there is one thing, required to the Symbolical Church, and that which Wickleff also thought necessary; but that is not all:) and testimonium Christi fidele, the faithful testimony of Christ: (there is an other: and the exercise of both follows) giving wisdom to the little ones, amongst extreme errors retaining the truth firm. 
The Devil by wickleff suggested pestilent inventions to abbet Rebellion, and Schism. Praescitus non habetpotestatem, etc. Nullus est Dominus civilis, nullus est Praelatus, nullus est Episcopus, dum est in peccato mortali. Recitantur in Concilio Constant. Sess. 8. & apud Wald. passim. See above, pag. 50. lit. r.  Here is the sense of his words to the full: and for my part I see no more in them.  
But you that can gaze upon chimaeras, would persuade us there are two things for your purpose; the one, that the Church of Rome may fail or err; and the other, that no General Counsels have infallibility. The former of these you ground upon that part of his inference; nec utique particularis illa Romana; neither also is it the particular Roman Church: the later upon those other, quam (Synodum) aliquoties errasse percepimus etc. which (Synod) we have understood sometimes to have erred, as that of Ariminum gathered under Taurus the Perfect, and that Constantinopolitan under justinian the younger, and some other. These two parcels then, and his opinion in these two points, are next to be considered. I take them in order.  
5. Nec utique 
aa Suprà ad lit. q.  particularis ill● Romana. The form of speech is negative; and the author by it denie● something of the Roman Church a● ●s a particular Church; the Que●on (since you will needs make a gestion of it) is Whether he denies ●o be the Symbolical Church; as it ●eares he doth by what hath ●ne said of this place hitherto; or, ●ether he denies it perpetual con●ncie in the faith, and indefectibili●. In answer to which question if ●u turn to the 48. Chapter, whose ●e is, de praerogativa perpetuae immu●atis Romanae Ecclesiae in fide Christi ●ab omni (bb) contagione haeresis illibatae; 
Locus ergo unde fluxit ab exordio sapientia Chri●na, Romana est Ecclesia. Ab hac enim praestatur hu●nae inertiae dirigendae assistri● sapientia sedium diuina●n, ut nobiscum sit & nobiscum laboret, ut sciamus quid ●eptum sit coram Deo omni tempore. Walden. to. 1. li. c. 48. Quomodo erit una fides quando pro captu suo ●squisque varia meditatur & invenit, nisi uno magistro ●ante unus doceat paedagogus. Ille puta, quem ad hoc ●cium prae caeteris Christus elegit dum diceret. Ego roga●ro te Petre ut non deficiat fides tua. Ibidem. Et quid mi● si Christo rogante, Romana Ecclesia non potest in fide ●cere? non est magnum, Haeretice, non est magnum ut ●od per se caderet, Christo sustentante non possit cadere. ●dem. Ergo audacter dico, in Christi nomine & Christo ●ante, Romanam Ecclesiam in doctrina Christi esse im●cabilem. Ibidem. Interrogat quis unde Romanae Eccle● tanta authoritas? Mihi videtur ex concessione Chri● ad confessionem Petri primi Pontificis. Primus enim confessor fuit divinae generationis etc. quomodo ergo 〈◊〉 dubijs fidei ad illam de fide consulendam non curritur, 〈◊〉 per quam, totam Ecclesiam suam Christus fundasse co●uincitur? Ibidem.  you shall find avouched, an● proved, that Ecclesia Romana non p●test in fide deficere, the Church 〈◊〉 Rome cannot fail in the faith. A● further, I affirm boldly in the na● of Christ, and Christ aiding the Rom● Church, that it is in the doctrine 〈◊〉 Christ impeccable. The origen of th● he refers there to our Saviour prayer and his grant: and concluding the Chapter he saith, 
cc Ibidem. vide Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. & Pits. de biblioth. walled.  Cy● not without cause extolles the Rom● faith, when expounding those w● (portae inferi non praevalebunt;) te● Peter quoth he, it is said the gates 〈◊〉 Hell shall not prevail against it; (〈◊〉 Church:) according to this promise● our Lord the Apostolical Church of ●ter remains clean from all misleads and heretical circumvention above 〈◊〉 the Prelates, and Bishops, and above Primates of Churches and of Apost in her chief Pastors in most abund● faith, and in the Authority of Pe● and whereas other Churches are comp●d with error, she alone established ●moueablie doth reign, imposing si●ace and stopping the mouths of all He●tickes: and we by necessity of salvation, not by pride deceived nor inebria●d with the wine of pride, do acknowledge and profess openly with her the ●me of truth and Apostolical tradition. Hereby appears what Wal●nsis thought of the Church of ●ome; and by those words secun●m Domini professionem, and those ●abilita inquassabiliter, he saw which himself had professed 
dd Non potest in fide deficere. ut suprà.  ●efore) that this immunity and ho●our was to continue. And by this, ●nd much more which you may ●ade in that Chapter where the thing 〈◊〉 professedly discoursed of, I ●aue as manifest, that you did mistake him in your first preten●e, which was about the Church of Rome.  
Non quidem generali Synodo con●egata, quam 
ee Sumprà ad li. q.  aliquoties errasse ●rcepimus, velut illa Ariminensis ●ngregata sub Tauro praefecto, & illa ●onstantinopolitana sub Iustiniano mi●ore tempore Sergij Papae secuudum Bedam, & quaedam aliae. Here again you will have the thing disputed, what he denies of a synod, and what he affirms. He denies that it is the symbolical Church; this is plain by the coherence of the discourse, as I declared before. He affirms of general Synods that some have erred, as the Constantinopolitan under justinian; the Ariminian under Taurus, and some others. Whence it follows that the Church so assembled is not the symbolical Church; for that never erreth. Holy, divine faith, is in her essence; and therefore as her essence or being cannot fail, no more can her faith. She hath fidem indefectibilem, such a faith as by reason of our Saviour's 
ff Matth. 16.  care cannot be deficient: and without exception of any time, without admitting corruption to the prejudice of her integrity, she retains the truth ever 
gg Suprà pag. 49.  steedfast; whereas a Council or assembly may be corrupted and want integrity; as appears in those which he speaks of.  
Moreover there are under the name of General Counsels (as appears by him in this place, and elsewhere) some that are sincere; some that are not. That of Nice was sincere, and was general: that of Constantinople under justinian, was not sincere, yet is it here put in the number of those, which he calls general. The infallibility of such as are sincere, and approved by the successor of S. Peter, the Pope, we maintain; the infallibility of all that are under the name of general, we do not. Neither doth Waldensis contradict us in the former part, which is of the sincere and approved. He saith indeed that some which go by the name of general have erred; you may add if you please, that others (like them) hereafter may. But your argument will not hold; Some, therefore all. Some men stagger in their faith, men deny God sometimes; you are not wise if you understand this of all men, or of wise men.  
When Wickleff objected as you do, 
hh walden to. 1. li. 2. c. 26.  Peccavit scimus Ariminense Concilium, peccavit & Nicenum Thraciae, the Ariminian Council we know did amiss, and so did the Nicene of Thrace; The author (the same whose authority you are meddling with) answers, peccavit utique magnus exercitus Angelorum etc. a great army verily of Angels did amiss, yea and the holy number of Apostles, even in apostasy, after they had received the faith, (before the coming of the holy Ghost, the spirit of truth, to teach them all truth;) and yet neither is the company of other Angels therefore deprived of their felicity; nor the assembly of the Apostles, regularly without doubt, of the principality of the Church; nor a general Council, of its authority. Thus in the 26. Chapter; and in the next, which is the 27. he delivers his mind touching the matter whereof we are disputing, in these words, Non dubitat Ecclesia sancta Dei, toties assistere sibi Spiritum sanctum quoties congregati fuerint authoritate plenario in nomine Christi ad fidei dubium resoluendum; The holy Church of God doubteth not that the holy Ghost assistes her as oft as they by full authority be assembled in the name of Christ to resolve a doubt of faith. This was not only certain, with him; but it is, he saith, a thing which the Catholic Church holds as a matter out of question; non dubitat; she doubts not of it. And a little after, Plenarijs Concilijs Ecclesiae, si tamen maneant incorrupta, Spiritus sanctus adest, & definite de fide. The holy Ghost is present unto plenary or general Counsels of the Church if so they continue sincere or perfect, and doth define of faith. And if this be so; then, not exterior only, as some would shift it of, but interior obedience is due to the decree; for such obedience we own to the holy Ghost, who is present assisting as was before said; and, as it is further here expressed, doth make the definition, definite. And consequently this Author had reason to say (as he doth in the same Chapter afterwards) that it 
ii Multitudini ergo credentium est potius adhaeredun, quae cum claruerit quod in Christi nomine congregetur, ab eius decreto unanimi non nisi cum periculo declinatur. c. 27.  is dangerous to swerve from such decrees.  
To this purpose, in the Chapter whence you dispute, he ponders those words of the first Council assembled in Jerusalem, (which gave the form to all others and taught them how to understand our Saviour's 
ll joh. 14. & 16.  promise) It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us. 
mm waeldendens. to. 1. li. 2. c. 19  mark; saith he; they said not, it seemed good to the holy Ghost and the Church, but to the holy Ghost and to us who here do represent the Church: and yet, not to us without the holy Ghost, but to the holy Ghost in himself, and to the 
* when this authority comes in, the fortè sic, and fortè non, have no place, The Holy Ghost cannot be deceived. What he doth avouch is most certain. Removentur dubitationes. Be mindful of this note when you come to S. Aug.  holy Ghost in us in the Church, who in doubts of faith is never wanting to the Church, Christ promising to her, the holy Ghost shall teach you all truth. And therefore what seemeth good to him, the same also by his instigation, seemeth good to us.  
That he did acknowledge infallibility in sincere approved Counsels, it is further manifest by that he held of the Pope's judgement. If he thought the resolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him, and that his decision was a truth so certain that it could not be gainsaid, he without question made no less esteem of a general and approved Council wherein the Pope's judgement and determination is included; and consequently, when he questions or rejects the authority of Counsels, he means not those wherein the Pope defines, or such as he approves; and so, not all that are under the name of general, but some only as hath been said before. Now, that he had that estimation which I have mentioned, of the Pope's judgement and dedefinition, it is manifest by the 47. Chapter, where professedly he doth undertake to prove it, bringing to this purpose many testimonies out of S. Augustine, S. Hierome, Rufinus, Origen, the Bishops of afric, and others. The title of the Chapter is, Quod Papa habet ab antiquo potestatem insringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates & debellandum & cancellandum omnes falsitates haereticas. And in the very 
nn Orthodoxi omnes ad iudices Christi currunt vicarios, & ordinatè requirunt ut tandem planam teneant veritatem. Propter hoc enim ut verè credunt, licet Doctores, & ultra eos Episcopos, & inter omnes mortales singillatim acceptos petere Papam, cuius moderamen & decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus. Apud ipsum enim piè credebant totius fidei nostrae latere mysteria, & pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico, quo sciret reprobare malum & eligere bonum. Walden. to. 1. li. 2. c. 47. Novit (Hieronymus) apud Papam Romanum authoritatem este ad emendandum fidem incongruam, vel ad probandum Catholicam: & postquam à tanto Apostolatu haberetur ut recta, sine dubio foret per null ●maltum violanda. Ad eiusdem quoque Damasi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Episcopi illo tempore suos adversarios haereticos coëgerunt. Ibidem: ubi etiam refert illud quod suprà dictum est ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum approbato.  beginning he saith, Papae moderamen & decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus, the Pope's direction and decision was by the Fathers (mark that, by the Fathers) held for a truth which cannot be contradicted.  
To the same purpose are many things added in the next Chapter, which is of the prerogative of perpetual immunity in the Church of Rome; where among other things he saith, that 
oo Propter hanc incorruptionem & claritatem famosam, omnes viri Catholici, quantumcunque magni, quantumlibet sancti, simul & authoritate territi magnae sedis, ab hac susceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica, cap. 48.  all Catholic men, how great, how holy soever, have from that See, received documents in doubts of faith; and that it is, as he speaks in the words of Cyrill, stabilita inquassabiliter, so established that it cannot be moved or shaken; and more to the same purpose, which in the additions you may read. So that I may leave this as sufficiently demonstrated out of his book, that you were mistaken in the sense of the words objected.  
Out of that which hath been related from him, it appears also (that I may leave a note for such as upon this occasion may chance hereafter to look on him) first that he puts diverse degrees of adhesion (divines express it by certitudo maior & maior ex parte subiecti,) respectively to verities diversly proposed. secondly that, with him these proponents are infallible, vizt: the Church symbolical; that part of it which is now present, including both Pastors and people; a perfect and sincere general Council; and the Church of Rome as it is head, or the Pope defining. thirdly that the Pope, Council, and present Church, when it will seek the verity of any point of faith, called into question, or the authority of any writing or scripture to know whether it be divine or no, is to look into the symbolical Church which hath all the Christian law, with the meaning, written in her heart, by the spirit of the living God, and there to find it: not in every page of this great book, not expressed in the faith of every part; but in the book. And, if after the search made, it be proposed, by the Pope in a general Council by the present Church received; or by the Pope in Council to the Church, all are according to his principles to receive and to believe it. fourthly, that the present Church finding and proposing the verity, and the symbolical (in whom she finds it) believing and testifying the same; do make up one organ, where by the holy Ghost the spirit of truth doth avouch it to the world. fively that besides the authorities before mentioned, all contained in the Church, (wherein our saviour 
pp Ego vobiscum omnibus diebus. Mat 28. qui loquitur in me Christus. 2 Corim. 13. Parecletum dabit vobis ut maneat vobiscum in aete●num, spiritum veritatis joh 14. In vobis erit. Ibidem. Non enim vos estis qui loquimini sed Spiritus Patris vestri qui loquitur in vobis, Matt. 10.  likewise and his spirit be,) there be in it also diverse other degrees of authority; as, of general Counsels not including the Pope's approbation; not by the Church, or him, disapproved; of particular Churches, especially 
qq Ecclesiarum Catholicarum, inter quas sanê illae quae Apostolicas sedes habere, & epistolas accipere meruerunt, etc. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8.  such as the Apostles have lived in; and amongst them chiefly the Roman, (though considered with abstraction from the Pope's authority.) by reason of the traditions left in her by the two great Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul: of national or provincial Synods, and the like: all which according to this Author, have their weight; though not the same with the Pope in Council. I omit to plead further that Waldensis was at Constance in the Council whereof I spoke before treating of Cameracensis; and pass unto the next.   

§. iv  
1. Panormitan the Lawyer, speaks of a Council not approved by the Pope, nor by the Church diffused: which Counsels the Question meddles not withal. 2. It were possible, he thinks, for God, considering his absolute power, to conserve the true faith in one man or woman. 3. Antoninus' his mind touching Counsels.  PVto tamen quod si Papa moveretur melioribus rationibus & authoritatibus quàm Concilium, quod standum esset sententiae suae. Name & Concilium potest errare, sicut a●iàs erravit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem & raptum. Et infrà Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest errare, quia Christus oravit pro Ecclesia sua ut non deficeret etc. Quia dico quod licet Concilium Generale repraesentet totam Ecclesiam universalem, tamen in veritate ibi non est verè Ecclesia universalis, sed repraesentatiuè; quia universalis Ecclesia constituitur ex collectione omnium fidelium. Vnde omnes fideles orbis constituunt istam Ecclesiam universalem, cuius cap●●t & sponsus est Christus. Et infrà. Et ista est Ecclesia qua no potest errare (credendo scilice●; controversia autem est de errore in docendo; sive de infallibili assistentia ijs exhibita quibus incumbit officium docendi, congregationem hanc universalem) Vnde possibile est quod vera fides Christi remaneret in uno solo: ita quod verum est dicere, quod fides non deficit in Ecclesia; sicut ius universitatis potest manner in uno solo, alijs peccantibus. Baro p. 367. ex Nicolao Panormitane. 
1. PANORMITAN. This man is called from the Canon-lawe to say some thing in a matter appertaining to Devinitie, and two things are wrung out of him whilst he 
a Vide 36. q. 2. & Almain. Pot. Eccl. c. 17.  mistakes a Canon of a particular Council, which we must answer unto. One is, that a Council may err; another, that it is possible the faith of Christ remain in one only.  
Concerning the first; it is one thing to say that a Council may err, and another thing to say that a general Council may; he saith a Council may, and in proof thereof makes instance in that of Meaux, which was a particular one, not a general. Again; it is one thing to say that a general Council may; another thing to say that a general Council confirmed by the Pope or by the universal Church received, may err.  
Now that the Council which he speaks of (be it that he may be understood of a general) is not a Council by the Pope approved or by the Church received; I argue from hence, that he compares the Pope and Council together as distinct, considering the Pope without the Council and the Council without the Pope, touching which comparison he hath two positions, the one, that 
b Panor. de electione cap. significasti.  in his quae sunt iuris positiuï, Papa est supra Concilium, in things appertaining to the positive law the Pope is above the Council; that Council sure, which includes not him; or his authority. The other (which he did not himself adhere to much less prove; vide suprà pag. 70.) in concernentibus fidem 
c Ibidem.  Concilium est supra Papam, in things appertaining to faith the Council is above the Pope; and presently he gins to tell how the Pope is to conform himself, unless perchance his reasons be better; where again it is manifest that the Pope was not included in the Council which he spoke of. So that if any thing be collected out of him to contradict us it is by virtue of the second part. Unless perchance you think this a good argument, the universal Church cannot err, as he affirms, therefore an approved Council may. And if you should admit the form (which Logicians will not do) you must admit this; the universal Church is that Church which cannot err, therefore S. Paul might err, and so might the Evangelists and all the Fathers and Bishops that ever were. For they were not the universal Church; though they were in it.  
Neither will the second part, or assertion of his, serve the turn; since it is only de possibili, an assertion of a possibility; and this too, not the lege ordinaria, since the coming of the holy Ghost and establishing of Pastors and doctors that we be not wavering; but de potentiâ absolutâ; if the power of all mighty God (removing in our mind, all suppositions and promises now made,) be considered absolutely, in itself. In which case, the lawyer makes this Argument; once the faith remained in one (so he thought it did in the time of the passion; as if all Christians there present besides our B. Lady, and those also which our Saviour had persuaded all the time and in all places that he preached; and all which 
* Reversi autem 72. etc. Luc. 10.  the disciples had instructed in what part of the world soever, had at once lost their faith: yet the lawyer who takes it upon trust, will suppose it;) once according to that imagination, the faith remained in one, therefore it is not a thing impossible in itself, therefore it may be (though not according to the course which our saviour hath established, yet) according to God's absolute power. If he hath not insinuated this absolute power under these terms so fare as 
d Cameracensis Quaest. de Resumpta, ut suprà lit. m.  Cameracensis and 
e Ockam. Dial. p. 1. li 5. c. 31. fine. & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13.  Ockam, whence he superficially gleaned it, in the like occasion have done; you are too bear with him, as being a Lawyer, not accustomed to the terms of schoole-devines.  
For my part I cannot think so poorly of him as to imagine that he did not know the Church is a kingdom which 
f Dan. 7.  shall not be corrupted, that the gates of Jerusalem shall be 
g Esa. 60 & 62.  open still, and the watchmen which God hath placed on her walls shall never hold their peace, that our Saviour hath established a Hierarchy 
h Ephes. 4.  till all meet in unity of faith, that even in the hardest times of all there shall be 
i Matth. 24.  electi chosen people, and that the 
k Apocal. 20. vide Disp. p. 53.  camp of the Saints and beloved city shall be diffused over the breadth of the earth, 
l Matt. 16.  and constantly (to the glory of her Prince and Founder,) in that extremest trial maintain her faith and allegiance against Hell gates, when the devil is let lose, and doth oppose her with all his art and fury.  
The inference Panormitan makes upon the case which he said possible in the sense before declared, is a strange one; for he will have it in that supposition to be true to say fides non deficit in Ecclesia faith in the Church faileth not; as if one man were fidelium Congregatio, a Church, a Hierarchy; subject and superior, priest and clerk. That it should begin, or end, or be continued in one, as a line is begun or ended or continued with a point, a divisible by an indivisible, were something; but one person to be a Church, is as strange as it is for unity to be multitude, or an indivisible to be divided.  Antoninus' p. 3. tit. 23. c. 2. § 6. haec omnia quae a Panormitano dicta sunt de Papa, Concilijs, & Ecclesia universali, amplectitur. Baro p. 368. 
3. IN confirmation of the Lawyer's supposed testimony, there is cited Antoninus (the Question being not of lawyers but of Divines) as subscribing to Panormitans doctrine of the Pope, Counsels and universal Church; or, as the Minister speaks, embracing it. Whereas he doth only recite Panormitans words, Notat Abbas de Sicilia quòd etc. and having repeated them, concludes, haec ille. So passing immediately to another, Petrus de Ancharano etc. without more ado. Yet since you will needs confound their opinions in this matter and make them both one; one, and the Divine rather, (the matter appertaining to Devinitie,) may deliver it for them both; which he doth in this tenor.  
Antoninus. 
m Ad illum pertinet Sanctum canonizare, ad quem pertinet quaestiones fidei determinare. Quod quidem planum est spectare ad Summum Pontificem. S. Antoninus in summa p. 3. tit. 22. c. 5. §. 5 lege etiam si placet §. 3. eiusdem tit. Apostoli in Euangelijs & Epistolis affirmaverunt in omni doctrina Petrum esse loco Domini. Idem c. 6. §. 7. ex Cyrillo. Quaeritur utrum authoritas universalis Ecclesiae in determinatione fidei principaliter resideat in Papa. Respondet S. Thomas affirmative 2. 2. q. 11. a. 2. ad 3. Postquam aliqua essent authoritate universalis Ecclesiae determinata, si quis tali ordinationi pertinaciter repugnaret, haereticus censeretur. Quae quidem authoritas principaliter residet in Summo Pontifice. Dicitur enim 24. q. 1. Quoties fidei ratio ventilatur, arbitror omnes fratres nostros & coepiscopos non nisi ad Petrum, id est, ad sui nominis authoritatem referri debere, & caetera usque finem ut habentur in S. Thoma loco cit. S. Antoninus c. citato §. 19 Sancti Patres in Concilio congregati nihil statuere potuissent, nisi authoritate Summi Pontificis interueniente; sine qua etiam Concilium congregari non potest. §. 20. ex codem S. Thom. li contra impugn. relig.  To him appertains the canonising of Saints, to whom it belongeth to determine questions touching the faith: which manifestly appertains unto the Pope. (n) The question is whether the Authority of the universal Church in determination of faith reside principally in the Pope, Saint Thomas (they be Antoninus his words which I relate) answers affirmativelie, that, after things be determined by the authority of the universal Church, if any stubbornelie resist or withstand that ordination, he should be esteemed an Heretic. Which Authority is chiefly in the Pope. And to this tenet of Saint Thomas, Antoninus there subscribeth; denying to the the Bishop's power to ordain in this manner, or to call a Council to this purpose, without the Pope's Authority. 
o Concilium non solum comprehendit Papam ut caput, quod est principale in Concilijs: sed etiam & reliquum corpus Ecclesiae, ut alios Praelatos: de quo Concilio inquit Propheta; Non abscondi misericordiam tuam & veritatem tuam à Concilio multo. Idem tit. 23. c. 1.  A Council doth not include only the Pope as Head, which is chief in Counsels; but the rest of the body withal, as other Prelates. Of which Council the Prophet saith I have not hid thy mercy and thy truth from a great Council. 
p A Concilijs vanitatis & malignitatis abscondit Deus misericordiam & veritatem: sed non abscondit à Concilio multorum, sc. tendentium ad unum etc. Ibidem §. 1.  From Counsels of vanity and malignity God doth hïde his mercy and his truth: but he hideth them not from the Council of many tending unto one etc. 
q Ea quae statuuntur in huiusmodi Concilijs generalibus omnes fideles astringunt. Idem, eod tit. cap. 2. in principio.  things constituted in such general Counsels oblige all the faithful.   

§. V  
1. Cusanus held the infallibility of general decrees. 2. The words objected out of him against us, are indeed plainly for us; as in the reading of them (they are at leingth in the Addition) it doth appear.  CArdinalis Cusanus in Concilijs generalibus ad hoc ut eorum decreta à nobis acceptentur tanquam certa & infallibilia, quasdam conditiones requirit etc. Ba●o. p 368. 
1. CUSANUS. This man is brought to teach us, and to teach the whole Church, the conditions of a general Council; as if none were good, but such as he liked of, and approved he was a young man when he wrote his book, and 
a Finit collectio etc. quam sacro huic Basiliensi Concilio cum omni humilitate offero, nihil in omnibus verum aut defendendum pro vero iudicans seu asserens nisi quod ipsa sancta Synodus catholicum & verum iudicaverit. Cusanus in fine Concordantiae suae Catholicae.  earnest for the Council of Basill, though he changed his mind 
b Vide eiusdem Epist. ad Rodericum da Trevino.  afterwards. Neither is the Question here what be the conditions of a Council; but, Whether a general Council which hath all conditions that are necessary, and is by the Pope approved, be assisted to the definition of the truth and be infallible? in which matter we shall easily know Cusanus his mind.  
In the third chapter, which you cite, he recites the words of Nicolas the first, terming such decrees 
c Idem li. 2. de Concord c. 3.  divinitus inspiratas sententias, sentences inspired by God. And after, of himself he saith, 
d Ibidem,  si concordanti sententia aliquid fuerit definitum, per Spiritum Sanctum censetur inspiratum, & per Christum in medio congregatorum in eius nomine praesidentem, infallibiliter iudicatum. If any thing be defined by an agreeing Sentence, it is esteemed inspired by the holy Ghost, and judged or determined by Christ praesiding in the mids of them that are assembled in his name. This he declares in the Council of Nice, whereof the great 
e Conc. Chalc. act. 1.  Council of Chalcedon saith, that, the holy Ghost did did there certainly remain or sit amongst the Fathers, and ordain the things which were there ordained. And then concludes 
f Cusan. c. 3. ut suprà.  talia fuerunt omnia orthodoxa Concilia, such have been all Counsels orthodoxal.  
As for the conditions he speaks of, none which he thought necessary, be wanting in those general Counsels which we maintain. The presence of the five Patriarches he doth not require but when they be Catholic, nor then neither, but for the more fullness of the Council. Others may be perfect which have not all; but that which hath all, is, he saith, synodus 
g Ibidem.  perfectissima, most perfect in that kind. One may have the whole essence of a man, all the essential parts; and yet not be most perfect. Our Counsels are not made in secret; they be assembled, and openly, from all parts of the world wheresoever the Catholic Church is; and such as come may freely speak and are heard. They look into scriptures, and former Counsels, and Antiquity, to find the truth; and, though in the search it might appear to some sooner than others, yet all in the end approve and propose, it.  DEbet sacrum Concilium universale, regulis Sancti Spiritus, tam in Canone Sacrae Scriptura ac praeteritis Concilijs apertis, dirigi, maximè in negotio fidei, quae una & invariabilis necessario sicut fuit, permanebit: & scripturas rimari in dubijs, sicut in sexto universali Concilio actum fuit, & alijs multis; & tunc definitio ex allegatis sumpta, absque errore necessariò erit Vnde si ea non seruantur maximè libera omnium audientia, ac ubi atiqua attentarentur in synodis quae obuiarent fidei Romanae Ecclesiae; protestatio iustè, ac simul & appellatio ad futurum aliud Concilium fieri potest. Baro p. 369. expunctis tamen ijs quae diverso charactere notantur. 
2. NEither is there cause to fear that a Council, assisted by the holy Ghost and defining, will contradict, either scripture, or the 
h Ex hoc etiam elici potest, fidem Romanae Ecclesiae, in nulla synodo universali retractari posse. Cutan. Conc. li. 2. c. 4. Dicit Augusti●us li. 1. con. Donatistas', volens stabili fundamento ex de●isione universalis Concilij fidem probare, jam ne videar ●umanis argumentis id agere etc. Idem c. 5. vid●s quanta ●niuersalibus Concilijs authoritas inest, dum rectè cele●antur. Vnde Augustinus l. 1 Serm. con. Pelagianos', di●, matris Ecclesiae hanc esse authoritatem, quod quisquis ●ntra hunc inexpugnabilem murum arietat, ipse confrin●ut. Ibidem.  faith of former times; he that ●s chiefly interessed in the business, understands all things clearly, and cannot contradict a verity.  
That which is objected upon occasion of S. Augustine's words, that 
i de verbis S. Augustini cum aliquo experimento rerum etc. fusius agemus suo loco.  a plenary Council may fail in the experiment of things, and in that case judge amiss, makes nothing to the purpose; for we dispute not of infallibility in things which may be found out by trial or experiment; but in matters revealed, and of faith.   

§. VI  
Clemangis professed, to reverence the authority of Counsels; and only to propose some doubts for his instruction in some things touching them.  NIcolaus de Clemangis in disputatione cum scholastico Parisiensi, quaedam etiam tradit quae cum doctrina Pontificiorum de Conciliorum infallilibilitate, manifestè pugnant Baro p. 370. Dicit Concilium generale errare posse in controversijs morum Baro Ibidem. 
CLEMANGIS. His work i● 
a Index libr. prohibit. Conc. Trid.  forbidden; and his friend t● whom he directed it, perceived i● came from 
b Quanquam Deum ac conscientiam testari liceat, nullatenus stomachato animo illa fuisse scripta quod miror tibi visum esse, quia tamen undecun que hoc evenerit, ita tibi visum est, ut tuae quantum fas fuerit voluntati ac petitioni morem geram, dulciora ac sedatiora enitar. Clemang. ad scholast. Paris. p 599. edit Parisiensi, anno 1576.  discontent; being forced as appears by his own Epistle 
c Opressus namque (ut nosti) ante aliquot annos aemulolorum insultatione me tunc gravissimè persequentium, ex urbe illa fui excedere compulsus latebrasque à facie tempestatis contra me iniustè admodum illic saevientis alibi quaerere. p. 600.  latebras quaerere, to play, least● sight. He writes bitterly against the Clergy; belike they made him fly. Touching Counsels; he doth not contradict their authority; (howsoever he mistakes the manner of defending it:) but only writes unto a friend to be informed better in it; protesting both to honour them, and to be ready to amend what in his writing should be thought amiss. Hear some of his own words. 
d Idem pa. 587.  Verily I reverently receive, and faithfully embrace, all Counsels, as well such as long ago have been duly celebrated, as also those which are celebrated now adays: and God forbidden that I should think or speak any sinister thing of them. Neither should I therefore be calumniated as less sincerely esteeming them, in that for the instruction of my ignorance I seek to know, and desire to have declared unto me, some things; that I may not only think of them well and faithfully, but also according to the capacity of my little wit, truly and wisely speak of them. And a little after. 
e Clemang. pa. 588.  I desire to be taught by thee, whether thou thinkest it must be believed as a Catholic verity, that in those things which be of fact, or of manners, or of judgements, a general Council can never be deceived, as well as it is faithfully believed that it cannot err in faith. And in the end. 
f Idem pa. 598. alioquin temerarium esset minus intellecta velle à sapientoribus discere; quamuis etiam certè paratus sim, si ea quae me movent dubia explicando aliquid in radice veritatis minus fundatum aut alicuius fortasse scandadali illatiwm nimis astruere viderer, aut fideli admonitu illud eradere, aut ad lineam rectitudinis lima exactiori emendare. Ibidem.  I intent (as I have oft already said, neither am I loath to repeat it) in these or other writings to affirm nothing but that which may be altogether agreeable to the Catholic integrity. But in case I have proposed, not affirming, but doubting; or arguing; any thing, less certain or true, whereby I may be the more fully informed of the certainty, I think that should not be thought rashness in me. And the rest which you find cited in the Addition.  DIcit Christi assistentiam etc. ad solos sanctos & spirituales pertinere Baro p. 370. Non obscure innuit eam persuasionem seu fiduciam de conciliorum infallibilitate qua multi tumescunt, esse Ecclesiae admodum perniciosam Idem p. 371. 
ANd whereas he proposeth by way of doubt, that holy men only were to be heard speaking out of a Council; he seems not to have remembered what our B. Saviour said of Scribes and Pharisees teaching out of Moses' chair, quae dicunt facite, imitate not their works, but practice what they teach.  
That such as do celebrate a Council should not, nimis inniti, to much insist or presume, on this, that they are a general Council, as if therefore they might freely do quaecunque libuerit, doth not make against us; it denies not to a Council, infallibility; as he denies it not to Prophets and Apostles, who says they should not rely to much thereupon, as if therefore they might do what they listed. Moreover his speech is qualified by himself if you mark it, non debent ut videtur, and 
g Clemang. pa. 597.  non utile crediderim illos inniti; me thinks they should not; I should not esteem it profitable for them to rely etc.   

§ VII.  
1. Canus defends the infallibility of approved Counsels. 2. His opinion of others which are not confirmed or approved Counsels. 3. It is a sophistical proceeding, to impugn one verity with another verity.  FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale universalem Ecclesiam representare. Sed dum vrges Ecclesiam errare non posse, verum est in eo sensu qui à fidelibus accipitur. Intelligimus enim totam simul Ecclesiam, hoc est, fideles omnes non errare: at nihil obstat cur maior Ecclesia pars non erret. Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc. 5. c. 5. 
CANUS, Is pretended to contradict us; though he be known to maintain the Counsels infallibility, such as we speak of: adding withal, that the contrary is heretical. In the fourth Chapter of his fift book, where he treats of that controversy, his third conclusion is, 
a Tertia Conclusio. Concilium generale confirmatum authoritate Romani Pontificis certam fidem facit Catholicorum dogmatum. Quam quidem conclusionem ita exploratam habere opus est ut eius contrariam haereticam esse credamus. Canus li. 5. c 4.  A general Council confirmed by the authority of the Bishop of Rome, doth make certain the faith of Catholic tenets. Which he there proves with many reasons; resolving also the doubts which Heretics object against it.  
2. Having established that authority, he disputes further, whether 〈◊〉 Council not confirmed by the Pope, hat● certain and firm authority or no? some learned men 
b Dubium excutiendum est, an Concilium per legatos summi Pontificis celebratum, firmam certanque habeat authoritatem; an potius episcopi Romani confirmatio expectanda sit ut certa habeantur decreta Concilij. Idem c. 5.  viri doctissimi, do affirm it; because it represents the universal Church, which cannot err. Whereunto Canus answers, that the whole Church or an approved Council, (which doth perfectly represent it,) cannot err; but a part of either, may. 
c Ibidem.  The judgement (saith he) of the greater part (of the Council) though the Legates follow it, is not certain: certum autem esset si a summo Pontifice confirmaretur, but if it should be confirmed by the Pope, it would be certain. And in the same manner he doth answer to a second argument of assistance, made for the same purpose. 
d Ibidem:  even as (saith he) that which seemeth good to the whole Church, the same also seemeth good to the holy Ghost; but not presently what the greater part of the Church shall have judged, the same is the judgement of the holy Ghost: so if anything be judged by all the Bishops, it is verily judged by the spirit of God; but not presently if many fathers of the Council agree into one sentence, shall it be to be believed the sentence of the holy Ghost unless it be confirmed by the Pope.  
3. By the way I observe here two things; one is, that if an author interpret those words Ecclesia errare non potest, the Church cannot err, of the whole or universal Church, it doth not follow that he denies therefore infallibility to general approved Counsels, which are perfect representations of the Church diffused; for this 
e Simile, in S. Antonino obseruare licet de quo suprà. Et nota, post verba ab adversarijs citata (ut supa pag. 86.) seq●i immediatè in authore, sic igitur non ego admitto, ut totum Concilium cum legatis errare possit: at errare poterit maior p●●s Conc●lij, & e●●nti illi poterū● le gatis subscribere. A● que id est quod nos in praesentia dicimus, ●udicium maioris partis etiam si legati sequantur, non esse certum; certùm autem esset si à summo Pontificeconfirmaretur. Nec enim opus est, quemad modumpaulò antè docuimus, sententiam Concilij omnes simul patres approbare. Canus li. 5. c. 5, q. ●.  man whom you cite for the former part, doth also maintain the later. And the manner of arguing, is indeed absurd; because it would impugn one truth by another. As if I should say; the whole Gospel of S. john is the undoubted word of God, therefore the first Chapter of it is not. And were it admitted, it would prove, as before I said on the same occasion, that every Apostle, yea all the Apostles and Fathers might have consented in a gross, yea and in the most fundamental error: because they be not the whole and universal Church.  
The other thing which I observe, is, that without sincerity or conscience you do make use of men's words, contrary to their known professed meaning and intention; which proceeding, especially in matter of religion, is inexcusable. The like observation I might have made in Antoninus, who is alleged against that which he did openly maintain.   

§. VIII.  
1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of extension in divine assistance; and maintain the infallibility of the Church in her public decrees of faith. 2. To be obnoxious to error in matters not revealed, doth not any way impeach the promise of assistance and infallibility in all that doth intrinsically appertain to the substance of divine faith.  QVando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent, sed salua fidei compage variè a varijs intellig● possunt etc. consulitur vel obiter disputat Ecclesia aberrare aliquando poterit etc. ex Stap. 
1. STAPLETON, is brought, as if he gave no more to the Church and her Counsels, than Protestants do; because he doth not maintain their infallibility in curious subtleties, and questions indifferent unto faith; nor think it so ample in object as was that of the Apostles. Where, first it is to be considered, that as in faith or science, so likewise in assistance or infallibility, more or less extension doth not change the nature of the thing. Mathematical science in one is more extended then in another; one knows more conclusions than another doth; yet is it in both, of the same nature. The light of glory in all the Saints is of the same Species and kind, as the Divines teach; though one by it knows more, another less. Faith, in us, and in the Apostles; before, and since the Incarnation; is of the same nature: but more extended in the Apostles, then in us; and since the incarnation, more generally, than it was before. The like we say of assistance or infallibility in judgement; it hath been more extended, in some, then in others; more at one time, then at another.  
secondly it is to be considered that the Apostles, who did write scripture; had infallibility in 
a Singuli Apostoli de omnibus plenissimè à Deo instructierant, ita ut eorum quilibet de quocunque dogmate ad fidem siuè necessariò sive non necessariò pertinente, pronunciare potuisset: idquetanta certitudine, ut non solum pastores essent fidelissimi, sed etiam magistri peritissimi, omniaque etiam subtilissima circa fidei mysteria penerarent. Staeplet, de princip. fidei Doctrinal. li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apostolis modo diximus, ut non solum in doctrina, sed etiam in forma docendi infallibili veritate niterentur, peculiar hoc Deus esse voluit etc. Ibidem.  all they did affirm; whether the matter were dogmatic, or historical; whether substance, or circumstance: whatsoever they did affirm, and put into the Scripture, it is a truth. But the infallibility of Counsels is not so ample; it is not so fare extended. This Stapleton doth prove in the place objected; where, having given the prerogative to that in sacred writers and Apostles, he concludes, 
b Natura nihilominus ac substantia potestatis ac certitudinis, eadem est Ecelesiae nunc, & illius Apostolorum: sicut fontis ac riwli inde fluentis eadem est in specie & bonitate naturali aqua, nisi ab aliquo extrinseco immutetur: quod his fieri non potest quia semper eundum Spiritum Sanctum magistrum (tanquam formalem rationem puritati● & synceritatis tam fontis quam riwli) successores habent quem Apostoli ipsi habebant: licet in alio diverso gradu. Ibiden.  the nature notwithstanding and substance of the power and certitude, of the Church now▪ and of that of the Apostles, is all one. All one in substance; but, In the Apostles every way exact, as reaching to the decrees, and to the means o● proofs; and to the consequence o● form; and to the circumstances all; and this, in all kind of matter▪ In the Successors, not so fare exact; nor in that extension or fullness; but in alio gradu; in another, an inferior, a more limited, and contracted, degree.  
In the same 
c Apostoli hanc certitudinem omnimodam & sapientientiam habuerunt tam in medijs quam in fine. Conseruare autem prius tradita etc. quia non tam praeclara & exacta sapientia indiget, sed satis habet si diligenter acceptis & ●emel traditis insistat; indefit quod Ecclesia succedens tan●a certitudine in ipsis medijs non dirigitur. Neque enim ●nta argumentorum certitudine opus est aperire & expli●are quod virtute in semine fidei later, aliudque ex alio ●e lucere, quam de novo rem penitus ignoratam explorare 〈◊〉 docere. Sic enim Philosophi etc. atque haec una causa ●st quare tantam infallibilitatem in ipsa forma & ratione ●ocendi, successorum, Ecclesia non desideret, quantam ●psi Apostoli. Stapl. doctr. fidei cont. 4. li. 8. c. 15.  place (to satisfy by the way another doubt) you may find clearly delivered, what some have mistaken touching his mind, in the 
* Metere quae alij seminaverunt, exacta & omnimoda infallibilitate non indiget; sed satis est semel acceptis diligenter insistere. Neque tanta certitudine opus est aperire & explicare &c. quam de novo rempenitus ignoratam explorare. Ex Staplet. Relec. contro. 4. q. 2.  Relection: those words, tanta, ●nd omnimoda, or exacta; which are ●ound there; import in him, a comparison; not in the substance of the certainty, or infallibility, or assistance; that, as he said before, is, eadem, the same; but, in modo, in the quantity, manner, and degree, which ●s diverse. Out of which diversity in the manner, and quantity, or extension, it comes, that the successors do not reach unto the means or arguments, and consequences, and ●acts, and circumstances, so universally, with as ample, and in every ●ne of those respects as immoveable a certainty, as the first Masters and Planters of Religion, and writers of the scripture, did; who were to ●aie the foundation, and by way of revelation to deliver, what the Church in after times was to insist upon.  
thirdly it is to be considered, that, the Pastors in Council, according to this Author, (and, as by their Acts you may perceive) do proceed, Sometimes as Divines, deducing or inferring one thing out of another, and Sometimes as Witnesses of the faith and judges of controversy, deciding and testifying the truth, and proposing it to the world to be embraced and believed. The former is a preamble to the later; in which later, it is always infallible whether it be, or be not so, necessarily, and always, in the former, from which further Question we do here abstract. The reason is because their decrees are generally proposed to all, not to be seen or known scientificallie, that way were very singugular; the most part of Christians is not able to conceive it: but, to be believed. The 
d Ibidem.  Church (saith th● Author) doth not teach, ex arte, sed ex authoritate, not by art, but by authority, neither doth she conclude as it were by Theological science, of God and divine things, but by the Pastoral pow● which from God she hath received, s● doth give sentence or determine. Our Saviour did not open a school of science but of faith; neither did he send his disciples to prove the Gospel, but to preach it, And, teach indeed he bid them; but so, as by testifying and preaching they should do it; not by proveing or disputing. 
e Ecclesiae pastoribus & magistris decernentibus creditur, non quia legitimè probarunt quod decernunt; sed quia apertè decernunt & tradunt sic esse credendum; sive decretum suum ex legitimis medijs probasse nobis constet, sive non. Haec enim est obedientia fidei de qua disseruimus. Ibidem.   
fourthly it is to be considered that the infallibility of the Church-decrees, depends upon the 
f joan. 14.  promised assistance; which was not to all verity possible, nor to all that is actual neither; but to revealed only, docebit vos omnia, & suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero, is the promise. The spirit of truth, the holy Ghost, shall teach you all things and suggest unto you all what soever I shall have said unto you. To things not revealed, the promise was not extended. The course was taken for bearing in mind and understanding, the lesson which Gods eternal Word hath given: and whatsoever, in this kind, the Church doth determine and propose to the faithful to believe, is true. Neither can she propose any thing in this manner, which is not indeed such as she declares it to be; she having divine guidance and assistance, in every such act. This, which you deny, Stapleton doth teach. 
g Stapl. Relect. cont. 4. q. 2. not. 4.  Ecclesia in conclusione fidei semper est certissima & infallibilis. Mark that, semper; the Church, in the conclusion of faith, is always most certain and infallible. So that if you find any thing declared by the Church to be de fide, it is, according to his tenet, most certain; and may no further be disputed. And in another 
h Staplet. de princip. si. contr. 4. li. 8. c. 15.  place, Ecclesia, quia non ratione, sed authoritate, assistentia, & providentia divina, nititur, eamque infallibiliter promissam habet, nec prater veritatem, nec erroneè, nec contra Deum, ullo modo decernere potest. The Church, because it relieth, not on reason, but on the divine authority, providence, and assistance, and hath it infallibly promised unto her, can in no sort or manner, nullo modo, determine beside the truth, or erroneously, or against God. Whence it follows, as before, that if the Church doth apply her testimony unto any book, avouching and publicly declaring it, to be scripture; or to any proposition, determining it to be a point of ●aith, and proposing it unto the world for such; there can be, according to this author, no further question made of it: since the divine providence doth so guide her, that ●n such definitions, she, in no sort, ●an judge erroneously, or determine ●esides the truth.  
●. Neither is this integrity in de●●nition violated, or our saviours promise of assistance broken, if, not in matter of divine belief, (such as ●or the good of his Church God ●ath revealed,) but in 
i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse prae●er fidem arbitratur (Celestius,) quàm sunt illae in quibus ●lua fide qua Christiani sumus, aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 & sententia definitiva suspenditur; aut aliter quam est, ●umana & infirma suspicione conijcitur. Vel●●● cum quae●●tur, qualis vel ubi sit Parad●sus; cum tamen esse illum ●aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet. Vel cum quaeri●r ubi nunc sit Elias etc. vel cùm quaeritur utrum in cor●ore vel extra corpus in ter●ium caelum sit raptus Apo●olus etc. vel quot sunt Caeli, etc. vel utrum elementa ●undi huius conspicabilis quatuor, an plura sint etc. ubi ●otuit Methusalem vivere etc. Quis non sentiat in his at●e huiusmodi varijs & innumerabilibus quaestionibus, sine ad ●bscurissima opera Dei sive ad Scripturarum abditissi●as latebras pertinentibus, quas certo aliquo gener● complecti ac definire difficile est, & multa ignorari salua Christiana fide, & alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine. S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Pelag. & Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq. 3. 4. 5.  other questions which it hath not pleased him by revelation to discover; (as, where is Elias, where Paradise, how many heavens, etc.) not in definition, and attestation; but in some particular 
* It is one thing to argue out of revealed principles; and another thing to argue out of others. Of this later kind of deduction I speak here.  deduction and conjecture, she doth infer amiss. Not every consequence orillation, not every thing syllogisticallie inferred out of premises, in matter of that nature; hath infallibility, according to this Author; but, the definitions and decrees, all, have it. If you know not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other, you may read him, or Canus; or look upon the Acts of the Counsels, where you may, with little study, discern it.  
If it be replied, that in his fourth Controversy, he seems to limit and contract the object of assistance, to points only fundamental, excluding all other: I answer, that even 
k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data, tantummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis, & fideli populo ce●ta veritate tradendis locum habet, quae vel in controversiam vocantur, vel alioqui ad publicam Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent. Staplet. fid. doc. li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent etc. vel non ad publicum aliquod & commune dogma explicandum (quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis usu versatur, vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur, populus autem implicitè, in maiorum fide) sed ad privatam alicuius etc. Ibidem.  there, he doth extend it to all points of faith, which, either are called into controversy (at any time wherein the Church is) or otherwise do necessarily appertain to the public faith of the Church. In which compass, is contained, all, that is in the Council of Trent defined, against you: or in any other ecumenical Council proposed, to be believed. Your masters, Luther, Caluin, and others, called into question diverse things, appertaining, and intrinsically as parts, to the substance or object of divine faith and public exercise of Religion, as, books of holy scripture, justification, Sacraments, and the Mass. And therefore, if according to Stapleton, the Church's infallibility doth reach vn●● all points of faith called into question, it is according to the same tenet, extended unto these; which he believed so to pertain to faith. But, in questions that are impertinent, or 
* Such as some above, pag. 97. litter. i. in mark.  indifferent; or, that appertain only to the direction of some one, that is weak in judgement, and in some private case; or, to the satisfaction of some proud man's curiosity: to conclude; in questions, that appertain to the explication of those things which are (appendices,) additions, rather than contained in, or appertaining to, the substance of faith, if the Church should mistake, it were not (he thinks) any prejudice to the grant of assistance, or the promised infallibility: not, if in matter of this nature, she should affirm, or (discoursing as a Divine, which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth,) should infer, and logicallie 
l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo. Ibidem.  conclude, amiss. But, to make a public decree of that which is false, and propose it, openly, to be believed of Christians, as matter of faith; that she cannot; being in her public decrees 〈◊〉 definition, infallible, as you heard him say before. And the same he hath proved at large, both by Scripture, and Theological reasons, in diverse 
m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont. 3. q 4 cont. 4. q. 2. & alibi.  places of his book.   

§. IX.  
1. Saint Augustine will not have any other books equalled with Scripture in authority.  
2. Other witnesses, or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture, and not recommended by it or by the author of it, we be not obliged to in that manner as we are obliged to believe the Scripture. 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings, in authority. His forbearing to press an Arian with the authority of the Council of Nice. 4. The Donatists refusing to yield unto the authority of the whole Church Catholic, and consequently of her Counsels too, and admitting Scripture, he doth challenge them to show there the decision of the Controversy which was betwixt them and him. 5. He did both avouch and rely upon the authority of plenary Counsels, esteeming them to be, in their decrees of faith, infallible. What mending that is which he speaks of.  EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam ca●onici appellantur, didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre ut nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere, alios autem ita lego ut qua●talibet sanctitate doctrinaque polleant, non id●o verum pu●em quia ipsi ita senserunt, sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos vel probabili ratione, quod à veritate non abhorreat, persuadere potuerunt. Baro p. 333. ex Aug. Ego solis eis Scriptoribus qui canonici etc. Ibidem. 
1. OUT of that which hath been observed from Stapleton, will appear the sense of S. Augustine; wherefore he comes next. There are four or five places cited out of him, against the authority of Counsels; but, for the most part, very impertinently; and, altogether against his mind. We know, there is a great difference betwixt the canonical writers, and others; betwixt the Epistles of the Apostles, and those of Bishops after them; betwixt their Acts, written by S. Luke, who in all he affirms or relates is infallible; and the Acts of general Counsels, whose writers had not that assistance. We do not equalise, or parallel, one of these writings with the other. We give the sovereignty to the scripture, as being infallible in all; so fare, that it doth no where at all, mistake, in any thing. This reverence we give to the testimony of those writers, in what ever they aver; and give not the like to any other, testibus, aut testimonijs, be they witnesses or testimonies. Albe it we believe other witnesses, in diverse things also; though not so generally, in all, without exception. But I come to your exceptions. The first is out of the 19 Epistle, where  
S. AUGUSTINE tells S. Hierom, to whom he writes it, that he doth not imagine he would have him so read his books, as if it were a heinous thing to doubt, whether perchance, in them, some error might be found; that privilege was reserved to sacred writers. I confess, saith he, that unto those books of scripture only which are now called canonical, I have learned to defer this fear and honour, that I most firmly believe, none of those Authors, to have erred any thing in writing; and if (in eyes literis) in those writings I find any thing which may seem contrary to the truth, I make no doubt but that, either the book or copy is faulty, or that the interpreter hath not understood what was said, or that I myself do not conceive or understand it. In Baroe who doth urge this authority, against the Church and Counsels decree or sentence, and impertinently, you may note these corruptions; first that for 
a Si cum doctiore amico sic disputemus ut quicquid dixerit necesse sit approbare, nec quaerendi saltem causa liceat aliquantulum reluctari: tum verò sine ullo timore offensionis tanquam in campo luditur, sed mirum si nobis non illuditur. Ego enim fateor charitati tuae, solis eye Scripturarun libris qui iam canonici appellantur, didici hunc timorem honoremque defer, ut nullum eorum authorem scribeodo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam. Ac si aliquid in eyes offendero literis, quod videatur contrarium veritati, nihil al●ud quam vel mendos●m esse codicem, vel interpretem non assecutum esse quod lictum est, vel me minimè intellexis●e non ●mb●gam. Alios autem ita lego ut q●a●ta ●be● sanctitate doctrinaque praepolleant, non ideo ve●●m p●●●m quia ipsi ita senserunt; sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonic●s vel probabili ratione, quod à vero non abhorreat, persuadere potuerunt. Nec te, mi frater, sentite aliquid aliter existimo; prorsus inquam non te arbitror sic legi tuos libros velle, tanquam Prophetarum vel Apostolorum; de quorum scriptis quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est. S. Aug. Epist. 19 ad Hier.  Scripturarum libris, to accommodate it the better for his purpose, he puts in, Scriptorum; and Scriptoribus; urging the word against us. secondly he omits aliquid, in that part, nullum eorum authorum scribendo aliquid errasse, whereas the force of the speech, and prerogative is by that word specified. thirdly, because in the words immediately following, if they had been put down, his corruptions had been laid open to the reader, by another aliquid, and litteris, he leaves them out; immediately joining others which he thought to be more for his purpose: as by comparison of his citation put above, pag. 101. to the words themselves in this Addition, it will appear.  QVanquam sicut paulò ante dixi, tantummodo Scripturis canonicis hanc ingenuam debeam seruitutem, qua eas solas ita sequar ut conscriptores earum nihil in eyes omnino errasse, nihil falliciter posuisse non dubitem. Baro p. 335. ex S. Aug. & ad eundem sensum plura. 
S. Augustine's mind is further opened by another place, brought, as against us, out of the same Epistle. S. Hierome had objected against him seven authors for his opinion in the matter whereof they dispute in that conference made by letters: and demanding whom he followed, he, (S. Aug.) shows first that S. Hierome did not approve of four of his own, so that he was to find out only three to set against the three that remained; to which purpose he mentioneth, as favouring him, S. Ambrose, and S. Cyprian, unto whom (because be did not himself esteem so of their authority, as if there might not exceptions be taken against their writings or opinion in some matter,) he adds a third, of authority incontroulable, namely S. Paul. His 
b Flagitas á me ut aliquem saltem unum ostendam, cuius in hac resententiam sim secutus, cùm tutam plures nominatim commemoraveris, etc. cùm sint fermè sex vel septem, horum quatuor authoritatem tu quoque infringis. Nam etc. tres igitur restant etc. Si quaeras quid hinc senserit noster Ambrose, quid noster itidem Cyprianus, invenies fortasse nec nobis defuisse quos in eo quod asserimus sequeremur: quanquam sicut paulò ante dixi tantummodo Scriptures etc. ut suprà, pag. 105. S. August. epist. 19  words objected, which are by him uttered on the foresaid occasion, be these, I own to the canonical scriptures only this ingenuous service or subjection, whereby I follow them only so as I firmly believe that their writers erred in them nihil omninò, nothing at all; nor put any thing in them deceitfully. It is the very same that was before delivered out of Stapleton. And the rest of the citations wherein he compares writings with the Scriptures have all the samesence. 
* Neque enim quorumlibet disputationes quamuis Catholicorum & laudatorum hominum velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus, ut nobis non liceat salua honorificentia, quae illis debetur hominibus, aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere, si forte invenerimus quod aliter senserint quam veritas habet divino adiutorio vel ab alijs intellecta, vel à nobis. S. Aug epist. 111.  Other books have not, in every part, that infallibility; other writers have not such ample assistance, as the Sacred writers had.  SI divinarum scripturarum, earum sc. quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur, perspicua firmatur authoritate, sine ullae dubitatione credendum est. Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs, quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur, tibi credere vel non credere liceat, quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis. Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist. 112. 
2. THe Second exception is, that S. Augustine in an other place (Epist 112.) speaks not of writings only, but of witnesses; and leaves it, as it is pretended, in our choice, whether we will believe or not believe any but the Scripture. Whereunto I answer, that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings, reject all authority or testimony that is other, in your sense; binding us only to the scripture so as you pretend. For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimony of the Church, as infallible; esteeming it 
c S. August. epist. 118. c. 5.  most insolent madness to contradict it; yet the Church is not scripture. To this purpose there be many places in him, whereof I will cite one. In his book de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretic about the Question of rebaptising such as out of the Church had been baptised, and urging the custom of the Church which did receive such as were penitent into communion, without rebaptising, he makes this discourse; 
d S. Aug. de unit. Eccles. c. 19  If some wise man to whom our Lord jesus gives testimony, should be consulted of us in this Question, we ought no ways to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he told us, lest we should be esteemed to repugn not so much him as our Lord jesus Christ, by whose testimony he was commended: now, our Lord jesus doth give testimony to his Church, wherefore, as that Church (diffused) through all Nations, beginning at Jerusalem, doth receive such (penitents,) so without all windings and tergiversation thou art to be received. And if thou wilt not, thou dost, most perniciously, contrary to thy own salvation, strive against, not me or any man, but our Saviour himself, whilst thou wilt not believe that thou art so to be admitted, as that Church which he (whom not to believe thou dost confess to be detestable) commends with his testimony, doth admit. The same is confirmed out of the Gospel, wherein our blessed saviour saith to his Apostles, and Disciples, and in them to the Church, that they should bear 
e Matth. 24. joan. 15.  testimony of him; yet the Apostles, the Disciples, the whole Church, be not Scripture. Again, 
f Luc. 10.  he that heareth you heareth me, (saith our Saviour) he that contemneth you contemneth me. There is therefore an authority alive, and distinct from the written word, which we must yield unto; by S. Augustine also confessed; and consequently, it is not in our choice, to believe or contemn, any but the scripture. Nor were the primitive Christians without obligation of believing the Gospel proposed unto them by the Apostles, before it was written down; as you know by those words which immediately follow their commission, 
g Marc. vlt.  he that believeth not shall be condemned.  
To the place objected, 
Supra pag, 107.  alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur, tibi creder● vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti etc. 
Pag. 108.  his words above cited, do suggest an easy answer: as, this Others, not commended by this authority, believe or not believe, as you see cause; but, others, commended by this authority, you must believe, as fare as by it they are warranted and commended. Our Saviour proved that those who believed Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, must believe him, for of him they give testimony. The like it is of the Church; if you believe the Prophets, you must believe the universal Church, for they give testimony of it, and (as S. Augustine saith) more clear, then of our 
i S. Augu. Enarr. in psal. 30. conc. 2.  Saviour himself. One testimony may warrant another, and so they will become, in a manner, one. He that obaieth the magistrate, doth therein, honour the Prince by whom he is put in authority. And he that yieldeth all due reverence to Princes, doth therein a duty unto God, who commands it. We stoop to God, when with all reverence we receive his word written or unwritten; and we submit ourselves to the written word or Scripture, when we listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend.  
When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptisation, was come this 
k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. & 32.  quia nec vos potestis proffer de Scriptures, quarum nobis communis est authoritas, ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum, nec nos ita susceptum; quantum ad hanc remattinet, par nobis causa est. Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authority is common to us, one coming from Heretics again baptised, nor we one so received, for as much as concerns this matter (that is, producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other,) our cause is equal; he shows notwithstanding, how, even in this point, the Church in his time and he with it, followed the most certain authority of the Scripture, 
l Ibidem c. 35.  neque enim paruï momenti etc. for it is not of small regard or moment that, when among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part (or faction) began to be, this Question did waver and had the different Opinions of compartners or colleagues amongst themselves without breach of unity, it was thought good that this which we now maintain should be observed by the whole Catholic (Church) spread over all the world. And a little after. wherefore though truly there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonical Scriptures, yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of us, and even in this thing, when we do that which hath now seemed good to the universal Church, whom the authority of the same Scriptures doth commend; that because the holy Scripture cannot deceive, whosoever fears to be deceived with the obscurity of this Question (and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same) eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat, let him require, in it, the judgement of the same Church which the holy Scripture without ambiguity doth demonstrate.  
There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs. You know that actions done with ones own hand, by the motion of his own spirit, a man reputes not alien: but his own. So doth our B. Saviour esteem the actions of his mystical body, done by the motion of his Spirit. Settle it in your hearts not to meditate before, what you shall answer; for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which ●ll your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luc. 21. It shall ●e given to you in that same hour what ●ou shall speak: for it it not you that ●peak, 
Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis, docebit vos omnem veritatem. Non enim loquetur a semetipso: sed quaecunque audiet loquetur, etc. de meo accipiet, & annunciabit vobis. joan. 16. Mea doctrina ●ō●st mea, sed eius qui misit me. joan. 6 T●es sunt qui testimonium dant in caelo etc. & high tres unum sunt 1. joan. 5.  but the Spirit of your Father that ●eaketh in you. Matt. 10. My words ●hat I have put in thy mouth, shall not ●epart out of thy mouth, and out of the ●outh of thy seed, etc. saith our Lord, ●om hence forth and forever. Esaie ●9. He that heareth you, heareth me. ●uke 10. Since you seek a proof of ●hrist speaking in me. 2. Cor. 12. The spirit of our Lord hath spoken by me, ●nd his words, by my tongue. 2. King's ●.  
Again. The decrees which we ●eak of, have the testimony of the ●olie Ghost; and the Scriptures ●ue the testimony of the Holy ●host. Now, the Holy Ghost giving testimony to both these, i● not thereby in himself divided into two: He is still the same testis.  
Saint Gregory our Apostle, reverenced the four first general Counsels, 
li. 1. Regest. ep. 24.  ut quatuor Euangelia, as he did the four Gospels. Saint Augustine whose authority is here objected when he speaks of the sentence against the Donatists, 
li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39  says Deus plenario Concilio revelavit. The Church Waldensis above told you, make no doubt but that the Holy Ghost assists her, 
li. 2. Doct. fid. c. 27.  in her sincere ecumenical assemblies: He is present to them, and defines in them. So d● the Apostles believe too, 
Act. 15.  attributing their decree to the Holy Ghos● whose assistance was 
* Suggeret vobis omnia. joh. 14. In vobis erit. Ibiden. Docebit vos omnem veritatem. c. 16.  promised It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghos● and to us. This for Counsels. No● for Scripture.  
Well spoke the Holy Ghost by Esa● the Prophet unto our Fathers. A● vlt. God who at sundry times and 〈◊〉 diverse manners, spoke in times pas● unto the Fathers by the Prophets. He● 1. He spoke by the mouth of his ho● Prophets which have been since 〈◊〉 world began. Luc. 1. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2. Pet. 1.  
In a word. There are divisions of graces, but one Spirit: and there are divisions of operations, but one Lord: and there are divisions of ministrations, but one God; who worketh all in all. And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every one, to profit. To one etc. 
Vide Disput. li. 3 ubi agitur de Spiritus Sancti assistentia.  And all these things worketh one and the same Spirit, dividing to every one according as it will. 1. Cor. 12.  
I forbear to note that Saint Augustine speaks in the place objected of a point 
* Cùm enim petiuisses ut de invisibili Deo, utrum peroculos corporeos possit videri, prolixè aliquid copioseque ad te scriberem, negare non potui. S. Aug. Epist. 112. Quod non sic ostendero, ut aut corporis, aut animi sensu, visum perceptumque teneatur, & tamen dixero aliquid quod aut verum quidem aut falsum esse necesse sit sed nullo illorum duûm genere videatur, restat ut tantum modo credatur vel non credatur. Sed si dininarum Scripturarum, earum sc. quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur, perspicua (quod dixero) firmatur authoritate, sine ulla dubitatione credendum est. Alijs verò testibus etc. ut suprà. Ibidem. Dico itaque quod visuri sint Deum in ipso corpore; sed utrum per ipsum, sicut per corpus nunc videmus , lunam, stellas, mare, ac terram, & quae sunt in ea, non parua quaestio est. S. Aug. li 22. de Civit. Dei c. 29. Ratiocinatio illa Philosophorum qua disputant ita mentis aspectu intelligibilia videri, & sensu corporis sensibilia id est corporalia, ut nec intelligibilia per corpus, nec corporalia per scipsa mens valeat intueri, si posset nobis esse certissima, profectò certum esset per oculos corporis etiam spiritalis nullo modo posse videri Deum. Sed istam ratiocinationem & vera ratio & prophetica irridet authoritas. Ibidem. Tametsi nec Scripturae, nec Conciliorun, nec Patrum testimonijs expressè definitum sit, non posse Deum oculo corporeo videri, id tamé adeo efficaci ratione naturali etc. Vasquez 1. p. disp. 40 c. 2.  not determined by the Church: whence ariseth a third Answer. And he that can but English his 
m Inspiciatur codex manuscriptus.  words, will himself espy a fourth; and a fift.  

Quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata. Baro. p. 336 ex Aug.  3. The third exception is, that Counsels according to S. Augustine, be not equal to the Scripture. But I see not how any thing can be drawn hence against their infallibility in decrees. We do not equal the Apostles or the Prophets to our Saviour jesus Christ; nor the written word, with the eternal and increated word; yet, the Prophets and the Apostles, and the Scripture or written word, are infallible. Moreover; the Canonical Scriptures are infallible in all what ever they avouch, of what argument or matter soever it be, which latitude of infallibility we find not in the acts of General Counsels; nor in any other book or writing, as you were told before; and, though I do not, yourself will, repeat again out of S. Augustine, quis 
n S. Aug. li. 2. de bapt. contr. Donat. c. 3.  nesciat Sanctam Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam novi testamenti certis suis terminis contineri, eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi, ut de illa omninò dubitari & disceptari non possit utrum verum vel rectum sit quicquid in ea scriptum esse constiterit? That quicquid, doth import an amplitude of infallibility, which Counsels have not; and therefore they are not equal unto Scripture. The Donatists excepted against a Council, because it had in it registered the day and the Consuls. 
o Etiam hinc gestis ipsis Cirtensibus calumniabantur quia ibi dies & Consules legebantur; & exigebant à nobis ut aliqua Ecclesiastica Concilia proferremus, ubi dies recitarentur & consuls, etc. etiam hoc exigebant ut de Scripturis sanctis ostenderemus alicubi dies & consuls esse conscriptos: quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata, aut possunt etiam ipsi de Scripturis sanctis proferre Concilium ubi Apostoli iudices sederint & accusatum aliquem damnaverint vel absoluerint. Et tamen respondebimus eis etiam Prophetas libros praenotatis & definitis commendasse temporibus, quo anno, cuius regis, etc. S. Aug. li. cont. Donatist. post Collat. c. 15.  Requiring of the Catholics to show any where out of Scripture, where the days and consuls were registered and enroled. Whereunto S. Augustine answers, that Counsels are not parallelled with Scripture; the one (to wit, the Council) may do well, in registering both days and Consuls, though the other do not so; or, they may be added, and not by the authority of the Council; though nothing be registered in the Scripture, but by the direction of the holy Ghost. The acts of Counsels are not equalised in exactness, and extent of infallibility, to the books written by God's Secretaries; we give the prerogative to the Scriptures, and so do the words objected out of S. Augustine; which are cited in the margin.  
In the same place whence they were taken he tells how the Catholics, did forbear to examine, why in one Council the day was noted, and in the other not, quia illi (Donatistae) vanas moras volebant innectere; and all heretics are of the same condition, they hinder with impertinent Cavils the process of the Catholics arguments, and catch at all occasions to trifle out the time. For the same cause, disputing in another place with an Arian, he did forbear to urge against him the authority of the Council of Nice, against which the heretic took exceptions, opposing the Ariminian Council. The examen of which two points, thereby called into controversy; I mean, the lawfulness of the one, and the unlawfulness of the other; would have taken up the time, and transferred the dispute into another question; which heretics greedily desire when they cannot answer. but S. Augustine would not permit that scope to his adversary: and therefore, having mentioned the two foresaid Counsels, and in honour of the one which had defined the thing he was disputing of, said, it 
p S. Aug li. 3. contra Max. c. 14.  was there veritatis authoritate & authoritatis veritate firmatum, established by the authority of truth and truth of authority; and contrariwise, of the other; that there were multi paucorum fraude decepti, many deceived by the fraud or circumvention of a few, whereby heretical impiety endeavoured to weaken what the Catholic fathers in the power of truth and authority had established; 
Sed nunc nec ego Nicenun, nec tu debes Ariminense, tanquam praeiudicaturus proffer Concilium; nec ego huius authoritate, nec tu illius detineris. Scripturarum authoritatibus, non quorumque proprijs, sed utrisque communibus testibus &c Baro p. 337. ex Aug.  having I say mentioned these two Counsels, he forbears to urge his argument out of the authority of the Nicene Council, and makes it out of that authority which his adversary did admit; thereby the sooner to conclude, being so to dispute only about the meaning of the words he was to bring, and needing not to argue for his authority whose words they were. But now (for both of us be content with this course) neither do I, the Nicene, neither oughtest thou as by way of prejudice, produce, the Ariminian Council: neither am I held in with the authority of this (the Ariminian,) nor thou, of that, (the Nicene.) thou dost assume to thyself, the liberty not to obey it, and out 
* Infrà, in fi. huius relectionis ad sextum.  of thy malice art not held in, with that great authority, though thou, and all others, ought to be; since 
q Hoc est illud homousion quod in Concilio Nicaeno adversus haereticos Arianos à Catholicis Patribus Veritatis authoritate & authoritatis veritate firmatum est: quod postea in Concilio Ariminensi propter novitatem in verbis minus quam oportuit intellectum, quam tamen fides antiqua pepera●, multis paucorum fraude deceptis, haeretica impietas sub haeretico Imperatore Constantio labefactare tentavit. Sed post non longum tempus libertate Catholicae fidei praevalente etc. S. Aug. li 3. contra Maxim. c. 14. Sed nunc nec ego etc. (ut supra in mark) Ibidem.  the authority of truth itself, which cannot lie, doth there establish the thing which we dispute of. See what S. Athanasius hath testified of the authority of that Council to convince Heretics. Efficax ad omnem impietatem evertendam etc. infrà in Addition: ad Athan.  PEtit Augustinus à Donatistis ut Ecclesiam suam demonstrent Non in sermonibus & rumoribus Afrorum, non in Concilijs Episcoporum suorum, non in literis quorumlibet disputatorum, non in signis & prodigijs falla●ibus etc. sed in praescripto legis, in Prophetarum praedictis, in Euangelistarum praedicationibus. Baro. p. 337. & in eandem sententiam plura p. 338. 
4. THe fourth exception out of S. Augustine is, that disputing with the Donatists he urged them to show by Scripture how theirs and not the Catholic or universal, was the true Church; and would not have the matter tried by their Counsels. I answer that though the Church once known, and her authority admitted, that will serve to determine controversies, as you heard S. Augustine say before; yet, when the Question is of the Church itself, Whether it be a thing in the intention of our Saviour confined to one Nation, or extended over all, and, with an Adversary who doth admit Scripture; the way to demonstrate against him (ut ex tuis concessionibus etc. S. Aug. li. con. Cresc. c. 33.) the way I say, to demonstrate against him, is, to look upon the Prophecies and see the description of it there; and, to hearken withal what our Saviour in the Gospel hath delivered, of it. The Donatists, with whom S. Augustine deals, admitted the canonical books wherein these two things are; and they being once admitted, the Question might be defined out of them. And, of the testimonies of the Law and Prophets and Psalms; and, of our blessed Saviour himself; in this controversy of the Church, S. Augustine said unto the Donatists 
r S. Aug. de unit. Eccles. cap. 16.  haec sunt ca●sae nostrae documenta, haec fundamenta, haec firmamenta; the cause he speaks of, was, Whether the Donatists i● Africa, or the Catholics in all Nations, were the Church; whether 〈◊〉 were a thing confined unto the limits of that country or extended over all the world, according to God's intention? and, the testimonies of our Saviour, and of the Law, and of the Prophets and Psalms, these testimonies he saith, were documents and foundations and establishments of this cause. He was not to prove it out of Counsels; for he that denies the whole, doth withal reject the authority of each part, or what ever is within the whole; they who condemned and opposed the whole Catholic Church did withal slight the authority of her Counsels, as Pagans also do; but he was to prove it by a principle, which they rejected not.  
Neither doth it follow that Counsels therefore in themselves are not worthy of belief, or infallible in their assertion; or, that S. Augustine did not esteem them so when to convince the Donatists he took his arguments from the Prophets to confirm or prove the foresaid point. S. Peter heard a voice from 
s 2. Petr. 1.  heaven testifying of our Saviour, yet he confirms it the same way, firmiorem babemus Propheticum sermonem, we have the prophet's words which yet confirm us more: and our B. Saviour, though most worthy of credit, as being the truth itself, confirmed his resurrection, and other mysteries, to the Disciples, by the same 
t Ipse Dominus Iesus cum resurrexisset à mortuis, & discipulorum oculis videndum, manibusque tangendum corpus suum offerret, ne quid tamen fallaciae se pati arbitrarentur, magic eos testimonijs legis & propheratarun & psalmorun confirmandos esse iudicavit, ostendens ea de se impleta quae fuerant tanto antè praedicta. S. Augu. de unit. Eccles. c. 16.  means. One testimony, as I said before upon the like occasion, doth illustrate another; and many joined together, do more easily master our understanding, and make it yield obedience to the truth.  
For the better comprehension of S. Augustine's mind in this matter, I will add a word or two more touching this way of discovering a truth in Religion; suppose it be, whether jesus be the Messiah and Redeemer of the world? or, whether this or that congregation, be the Church of the Messiah? For the notice of the former of these two, read the Prophets, where you shall find that a Messiah shall come, that he shall be borne in Bethlem, preach, do miracles; be resisted and rejected by the jews, who were keepers of these books of Prophecies; be persecuted, scourged, put to death, pierced; and after death rise again; and be acknowledged and adored by the Gentiles. This you read there; and it is a good direction; but this is not all. You must find out the man, to whom this description doth agree; and, in the comparison of them both together, the man jesus with the circumstances of his birth, life, and death, to the prophetical description; and the Prophecy to the man, in this comparison I say you know that which you look for, vizt. that, jesus is the Messiah and redeemer of the world, when you would get knowledge of the later, viz. which company is the Church, you first take notice of a company of people, professing one faith, in all Nations, beginning at Jerusalem: defending it, by her Pastors 
u  omittam sapientiam (syncerissiman) quam in Ecclesia esse Catholica non creditis, multa sunt alia quae in eius gremio me iustissimè teneant. Tenet consensio populorum atque gentium; tenes authoritas, miraculis inchonta, spe nutrita, charitate aucta, vetustate firmata: tenet ab ipsa sede Petri Apostoli, cui pascendas oves suas post resurrectionem Dominus commendavit, usque ad praesentem episcopatum successio sacerdotum: tenet postremò ipsum Catholicae nomen etc. S. August. count. Epist. Fundamenti c. 4. Ego verò Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret authoritas. Ibid. c. 5. Cum igitur tantum auxilium Dei, tantum profectum fructumque videamus, dubitabimus nos eius Ecclesiae conderegremio, quae usque ad confessionem generis humani, ab apostolica sede per successiones episcoporum, frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus, & partim plebis ipsius iudicio, partim conciliorum gravitate, partim etiam miraculorum maiestate damnatis, culmen authoritatis obtinuit? cui nolle primas dare vel summae profecto impietatis est, vel praecipitis arrogantiae. S. Aug. de util credendi c. 17.  in Counsels, and otherwise; offering to God, every where Sacrifice or oblation, leading an innocent life in exterior profession; and, confirming, with miracles, her belief and doctrine; but this alone, so abstracted from the increate authority, doth not breed an act of divine belief that this company is the Church of God; wherefore you go further, and in the Prophets, and other parts of the Bible, read a description of the Church, diffused over all the world beginning at Jerusalem, with power to meet in Council, and assistance of the Spirit; offering to God, in all Nations, a clean oblation● disposed Hierarchicallie, with her watchmen ever on her walls; he● Pastors ready to maintain the truth, and attending carefully to the flock that by Error they be not circumvented: and then, comparing one of these unto the other, vizt. the company to the prophecy, the prophecy to the company; in the comparison you find, and believe, (with an act of divine faith) the true Church. It is this, as I conceive which S. Augustine points at, in the place before cited, when he saith our Saviour confirmed the faith o● his resurrection by testimonies o● the Prophets, 
x S. Aug. de unit. Eccles. c. 16  ostendens ea de s● impleta, que fuerant tanto ante praedicta, showing those things to be fulfilled of him, which so long before were foretold. And to this end he shown hi● hands, and side, when he did appear after his resurrection. Which brought his disciples in mind of, foderunt manus meas & pedes meos; aspicient ad me quem confixerunt, they have digged my hands and my feet; they shall look upon me whom they have pierced; and the rest moving them to faith; and S. Thomas putting his hand in to the wound, in his Master found God.  
How to find the Church in this manner, you have been told 
y Disp. li. 2.  elsewhere. Looking all about, on the world, and into monuments of antiquity, you see a great company of people, reaching from the Apostles time, and stretched out into all Nations, communicating with the See Apostolic in the profession of one and the same Religion, and holding out a book to all that will read it. You read; and observe. And considering the company, you percave the book is a prophecy; for, being written long before the company was extant, it doth describe it perfectly; and foretells the coming of it; with diverse particulars that come not of necessity but of election and free choice: considering the book, you perceive the company to be the Church; for, there you find it so delivered and affirmed by him that made the book, 
Disp p. 177.  who foreseeing things future, (many ages before they came to pass) certainly foretold of it; and is worthily believed, as having such an infinite foresight and certain comprehension of all kind of things future.  ET ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones vel provincide fiunt plenariorum conciliorum authoritati, quae fiunt ex universo orbe Christiano, fine ullis ambagibus cedere; ipsaque plenaria saepe priora posterioribus emendari, cùm aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clausum erat, & cogno cit●r quod latebat. Baro. p. 339. ex Aug. 
5. IN the fift place are objected out of S. Augustine those words, Provincial Counsels without all tergiversation give place to the authority of general Counsels assembled out of all the Christian world, and many times the precedent plenary or general Counsels are mended by the following (plenary Counsels) when by some experiment of things, that is opened which was shut, and that known which was unknown. For the understanding of which words, it is to be noted, first, that S. Augustine is there disputing with the Donatists, who amongst other things had objected against the Catholics, for their error, Faint Cyprians authority, and his writings or Epistles; and a Council which he made, wherein their tenet of rebaptisation was affirmed. To which three points he ●here answers: first, if the example ●r authority of S. Cyprian were of ●uch esteem with them, they should ●ather follow him in embracing ●he communion of the 
* Si authoritas Cypriani seq●ēda est, magis ea sequenda est in unitate seruanda, quam in Ecclesiae consuetudine commutanda. Si autem Concilium eius attenditur, huic est universae Ecclesiae posterius Conci●●um praeponendum S. Aug. li. 2. de Bap. c. 9 vide etiam c. 1. eiusdem li.  Church; which he did; and not break into ●hisme, which was a thing he de●ested. secondly the letters and wri●ngs of S. Cyprian (and it is the ●me of other Bishop's writings) are ●ot to be presumed so entire for ●uth, that nothing in them 
z Certè nobis obijcere soletis Cypriani literas, Cypriani sententiam, Cypriani concilium. Cur authoritatem Cypriani pro vestro schismate assumitis, & eius exemplum pro Ecclesiae pace respuitis? Quis autem nesciat Sancta●● Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam novi testamen●ti certis suis terminis contineri, eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi ut de illa omni● no dubitari non poss●t utrum verum vel utrum rectum f● quicquid in ea scriptum esse constiterit? Episcoporum a●tem literas quae post confirmatum canonem vel scripsunt vel scribuntur, & per sermonem fortè sapientiore● cuiuslibet in ea re peritioris, & per aliorum episcoporu● graviorem authoritatem, doctiorumque prudentiam, 〈◊〉 per concilia, licere reprehendi si quid in eyes fortè a verita● deviatum est. Et ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones & 〈◊〉 (ut suprà pag. 128.) S. Aug. li. 2. de Baptis. con. Donat● c. 3.  may ●e reprehended: such integrity of an epistle or other writing (ut de illa ●ninò dubitari & disceptari non pos● utrum verum vel utrum rectum 〈◊〉 quicquid inea Scriptum esse constiterit,) is the prerogative of hol● Scripture. thirdly provincial Synods (such as that of S. Cyprian) yield unto general Counsels, which a● assembled out of the whole worl● 
aa S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. cap. 9  universum partibus, semper in● optimo praeponitur, the whole is deso●uedlie preferred before the part. Such 〈◊〉 Council, hath now determined th● controversy; the world subscribe● and S. Cyprian would have yield too; wherefore you have no reaso● to stand any longer, upon his Cou●cell, or his writings; or to pretend 〈◊〉 example and authority.  
By this S. Augustine hath fully answered the Donatists objection. Yet, having by that occasion, mentioned general Counsels, 
* Our B. Saviour sometimes in his answers taught more than was demanded, as Matth. 21 36. Queadmodun in superioribus cum de resurrectione interrogaretur, plus docuit quam tentantes petebant: sic in hoc loco de primo interrogatus mandato, secundum etiam non valdè quàm primum inferius spo●te attulit. S. Chry. Homil. 72. in Matth.  of himself he goes further; and says, that some of those, otherwhile, may be ●mended also; 
bb Suprà pag. 128.  when by some experiment of things that is opened which was shut up before, and that known which was unknown. Where, advisedly, (treating of so great a matter,) ●he hath balanced his words; and not ●eft the speech, absolute; as he did the other next before, of provincial Counsels; but limited it, with two qualifications; the one restraining it from being extended unto all; saepè; not always this; but, oft: the other contracting it to the case or matter, when that which was shut up, is opened by some experiment of things. Which metaphor of opening, he doth expound presently in other words, not adding another case, but expressing more the same which was before delivered under the Metaphor of opening, & cognoscitur quod latebat, and (by the same experiment of things) that is known which was before unknown.  
secondly it is to be noted, that S. Augustine doth urge against these heretics the definition of a general Council, wherein by the consent, as he speaks, of the whole world, the 
cc S. Aug. de Haeres. n. 69.  controversy was decided; and the truth established, so, that now the men were heretics who resisted the verity; though before the definition they were not (for holding what they did in this matter of rebaptisation) guilty of so great a crime. In this sort he doth excuse S. Cyprian; and accuse, or charge the Donatists. 
S. August. de Hares. n. 69.  They presume, says he, to rebaptize Catholics wherein they did further confirm, th● they were heretics; it having seeme● good to the universal Church, not 〈◊〉 revoake (or as another lection hath it, not to repeat) the common baptism, even in heretics themselves. And 
dd S. Aug li. 1. count. Donat. c. 7.  the obscurity of this question, (of baptism, disputed with the Donatists,) hath in the former times of the Church before the schism of Donatu● compelled great men and those endowe● with great charity, Fathers, Bishop● so to contend amongst themselves, without breach of peace, and so to waver, that the different decrees of Counsels in their several Countries did long time shake, until that which was most wholesomely judged, was, (remotis dubitationibus,) all doubts removed, established by a plenary or general Council of the whole world. Again, 
ee Ibidem cap. 18.  before the consent of the whole world had established by the decree of a general Council what was to be embraced of all in this matter, S. Cyprian with almost fourscore of his fellowebishops of the Churches of afric, thought that every one who was baptised out of the communion of the Catholic Church, was, when he came to the Church, to be baptised or christened again. And again, 
ff S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. c. 9 Consuetudinis robore tenebatur orbis terrarum, & haec sola opponebatur, etc. Ibidem.  as yet there had been no general Council assembled in that behalf, but the world was held in by the strength of custom, and this custom only was opposed to those which endeavoured to bring in that novelty (of rebaptisation) because they could not apprehend the truth; yet afterwards, whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of, and sought, it is not only sound out, but also brought to the authority and strength of a general Council, after Cyprians passion indeed, but afore we were borne. And a little after the words objected. 
gg c. 4.  Neither durst we affirm any such thing if we were not well grounded upon the most consenting or agreeable authority of the universal Church, unto which undoubtedly he (S. Cyprian) would have yielded if as then, the truth of this question, being cleared and declared, had been established by a general Council. Hence it follows, first that he did acknowledge in general Counsels, authority to determine controversies; and this controversy particularly of rebaptisation, (which you 
hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum, qui certè fundamentalis ●o fu●●, no●dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus etc. Baro p. 348.  confess was not in a matter fundamental;) and that, therein the truth was established by authority, (not of scripture, this matter was not so resolved; but) of the world, in a Council; and so fare established, that all, were to believe it, and, remotis dubitationibus, without as much as doubting of it. Whence it comes secondly, that to resist such a decree it is diabolical, which word he doth use upon another occasion, and that such as maintain the contrary, are indeed, heretics.  
thirdly it is to be repeated (which hath been said oft before) that though we maintain the infallibility of sincere and approved general Counsels, in their decrees of faith, yet we do not believe that their infallibility is extended unto all they writ or speak, and in all kind of matter; as not equallizing their acts with books of Scripture; and consequently, there may be something in such a Council, sometime, that may need mending. Neither yet do we maintain or believe, that all Counsels which go under the name of general, have infallibility in their decrees; some have, as those which are approved; some have not, and these later may need mending, even in the decree they make touching faith. Moreover, though the Council that is plenary and approved, cannot command a vice, or condemn virtue by decree, yet may it command that which after may prove inconvenient, or forbidden what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed. And, if a law which at first was well made, (the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other than they were before and notably changed,) become inconvenient, (and consequently not good in these circumstances, though good in itself, and in other circumstances, such as those were wherein it was first made,) it may be changed, by power equal to that which made it. The Apostles, by decree, did forbid the eating of suffocata, things strangled; yet afterwards, when the circumstances were charged and fear of scandal quite removed, the Church began to do the contrary. To frequent the ceremonies of the law, now, it were a Sin, peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret. S. Tho. 1.2. q. 103. a. 4. though you know by what authority (for the time) they were commanded. If you be sick, physic is good; if you be well, the same is bad for you. The same thing, may be convenient, and inconvenient, good and bad, in diverse circumstances. When the commonwealth is distempered, a law may be necessary; and at other times, not useful, yea inconvenient; and therefore to be annulled. And the commonwealth in anulling of it, mends her Statute-booke, respectivelie to these later circumstances; though when she made it first she did not commit a fault.  
fourthly it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before delivered, there be some kind of Counsels which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended, nor to be doubted of; that it is heretical to oppose them; and consequently, that they have nor exterior only, but interior obedience also (remotis dubitationibus) due, to such, their decrees: which being manifest in him, you labour in vain to be extend his words objected, unto all: which were to make him contradict, both the truth, and the Church of his time, and himself. He saith, and we too, that some general Counsels may be mended, when by trial or experiment that is opened which was shut up, and known which before was unknown; but some general Counsels cannot be mended; no, nor questioned or doubted of, in their decrees touching faith. Now to your objections in particular.  
First you say that he speaks of mending in matter of faith; I answer that those words, in matter of faith, be your addition. He speaks indeed, of mending in such matters as by trial or experiment may be known, but, divine verities which are the object of our faith, be not of this nature. Neither if there had been expressed in that clause, (which is of general Counsels,) matters of faith, were you able to conclude any thing against us, for we grant that some which bear the name, may be mended in that, also. Of all we cannot grant it, without contradicting S. Augustine, and making him withal to contradict himself.  
secondly you say that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authority of Scripture from all other authority, wherefore since no general Council whatsoever, is Scripture, he means them all; and will have all subject unto mending. I answer, that he intended to satisfy three things objected. 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example. 2. S. Cyprians writings. 3. S. Cyprians Council. The comparison of Scripture, is with writings; and it is a part of his answer to the Second point; as I have related it. And it is true, that this writing hath the prerogative above all writings, 
vide suprà, pag. 130. & pag. 106. mark  that nothing at all can be questioned, which it affirms. To S. Cyprians Epistles, or any other man's, we own not that service or honour. Of Counsels he speaks afterwards, in the third place; and you know that, it is not essential to their decrees, to be written. There is also great difference, betwixt Counsels and the Scripture, in infallibility, (as hath been shown many times;) although the decrees in faith, (of such as are approved) are infallible. But if you will have him aim at this, that all general Counsels whatsoever, may be mended, and in their decrees of faith, you make him, as before was observed, to contradict himself. For, these are contradictory; some may not, as that of Nice; and, all may. Moreover by that saepè, it is manifest that his speech is not general, as you would have it; saepè, is short of Semper. And the qualification which he doth use, is another argument of the same.  
thirdly you say that unless S. Augustine speak in the words principally objected, of amendment in matter of faith, he leaves unanswered, the Donatists objection. But neither will this make any thing to your purpose; for, before he comes to speak of amending plenary Counsels, he hath fully satisfied the three points of their argument, taken from S. Cyprians example; from his writings, or Epistles; and, from his Council: his example should have moved them rather to adhere unto the Church; his writings were not canonical Scripture; they might have something in them liable to reprehension; 
Suprà in mark etc. in additionibus.  and his Council; being only national, was to give place to a general. There stays their argument, wholly satisfied. The rest was added for a fuller illustration of the matter of Counsels, whereunto that occasion had led him. They be not all of one nature; some kind of mending or other, they be subject to, sometimes; though not all unto the same. We do not, of necessity, so adhere unto them all, as if nothing, in any, 
Saepè priora, à posterioribus emendantur. But I pray you what amendment had he seen in the Decrees of faith, of approved general Counsels? show me the saepè there. Name, out of him, the Counsels; and the decrees so mended.  might be better than it is. The Ariminian was general, but he would not maintain it; the second Ephesine was general, yet the Council of Chalcedon did annul it. Yea, suppose the decrees of faith be all right, and the Council lawful and approved, yet something otherwhiles may be mended; as, when by some experiment of things that comes to light which before was unknown.  
Moreover, in that you say the Donatists argument is not answered, unless it be granted, that any general Council whatsoever, may be mended in their decree, touching faith; you seem to call their heresy again into dispute: for, that which S. Augustine so much urgeth against them (and it was the thing indeed which choked that Heresy,) was the decree of a general Council. And it is strange you should imagine that he doth here in the same book disavow the same decree; as if his answer to their weak objection could not have place, but by cutting the throat of his own Argument, which they durst not look upon; and, that his own forces, of necessity must be ruined and oppressed, with the fall of their cause.  
Look better on his words: and in them you shall find that he resolved as we do. He saith touching this Controversy with the Donatists, that it was taken into consideration, and the 
(1) Nec nos ipsitale aliquid auderemus asserere, nisi universae Ecclesiae concordissima authoritate firmati: cui & ipse (Cyprianus) sine dubio cederet, si iam illo tempore quaestionis huius veritas eliquata & declarata per plevarium Concilium solidaretur S Aug li. 2. de Bapt. c 3.  truth declared, and 
(2) Postea tamen dum inter multos ex utraque parte tractatur & quaeritur, non solum inventa est (veritas,) sed etiam ad plenarij Concilij authoritatem roburque perducta. c. 9  established, by the 
(3) ut suprà num. 1. & 2.  authority (not by plain Scripture, there was none; but by the authority) of the 
(4) Si autem Concilium eius (Cypriani) attenditur, huic est universae Ecclesiae posterius Concilium praeponendum. cap. 9 ut suprà. Totus Catholicus orbis amplexus est. li. 1. c. 18.  universal Church: and this authority not in the Laiety, or diffused; but in 
(5) suprà. plenario totius orbis Concilio c. 7.  a Council, wherein the 
(6) Antequam plenarij Concilij sententia quid in hac resentiendum esset totius Ecclesiae consensio confirmasset. li. 1. c. 18.  whole Church did in 
(7) Ibid.  a Decree, express her mind. So that (although before, men perchance might 
(8) Salua pace disceptare atque fluctuare, ut diu conciliorum in suis quibusque regionibus diversa statuta nutaverint, donec. li. 1 c. 7.  doubt or stagger in the matter,) it was now to be believed 
(9) Donec plenario totius orbis concilio, quod saluberrimè sentiebatur, etiam remotis dubitationibus firmaretur. Ibidem.  remotis dubitationibus; and 
(10) nutaverint, donec. Ibid. Cui & ipse sine dubio cederet &c ut suprà.  obedience to be given to the decree, (whereof 
(11) Ammedera dixit, Et hoc ego idem censeo Haereticos baptizandos esse. Huic respondetur; Sed non hoc censet Ecclesia, cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concilio revelavit; quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis, sed quia in vobis charitas salua erat, in unitate permanebatis. S. Aug li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39 vide disput. p. 404.  God had been author,) by all who would not expose themselves to be 
(12) Scripturarum etiam in hac re à nobis tenetur veritas, cum hoc facimus quod universae iam placuit Ecclesiae. li 1. count. Crescon. c. 33. quisquis falli metuit eandem consulat etc. Ibidem. ut suprà.  deceived, and most perniciously strive against 
(13) Quòd si non vis, non mihi aut cuiquam homini, qui vult ita suscipere, sed ipsi Saluatori contra salutem tuam perniciosissimè reluctatis, qui te sic susciptendum esse non vis credere quemadmodum suscipit illa Ecclesia quam testimonio suo commendat ille cui fateris nefarium esse non credere. De unit Eccles. c 19  our Saviour himself; and confirm or assure themselves to be 
(14) Audent etiam (Donatistae) rebaptizare Catholicos, ubi se ampliûs Haereticos esse firmarunt, cùm Ecclesiae Catholicae universae placuerit nec in ipsis Haereticis baptisma rescindere. S. Aug. de Haeres num 69. expende verbum illud (ampliùs) quod indicat gradum, in eodem genere.  Heretics. This, I trow, doth import as much as we teach of a Counsels authority. And the grounds whereby S. Augustine could have defended himself, at that time and in that case, be the same whereby we now defend ourselves in other causes of no less importance; as, of the real presence, propitiatory Sacrifice, prayer for the dead; and the like: the divine assistance being not tied peculiarly unto that Age wherein S. Augustine lived.  
fourthly you say, those words & cognoscitur quod latebat, and that it known which was before unknown; be meant in matter of faith, because matters of faith do come to light after they have been unknown. As if this were a peculiar thing in matters of faith, and not common to diverse other matters, even those which by experiment may be known, to come to light after inquisition. there are many other verities which may so come to light, besides matters of faith, and therefore unless you will argue from the genus to the species, affirmativelie, as thus; it is aliving creature, therefore it is a man; which manner of discourse is absurd, you cannot out of those general words, make it good or prove, that he means matter of faith; not, if this part were disjoined from the former with a vel; for, there were yet other things which might so come to light beside matters of faith; all other verities are not manifested by trial and experiment, though some be: much less can you do it ●f you consider that the later part and the former be coupled into the same sense, by the coniunctive &. 〈◊〉 answer secondly that, were mat●ers of faith expressed in that part, 〈◊〉 for of that part only which concerns plenary Counsels I speak,) ●s it is manifest they be not; still ●ou were short of your aim; for, some kind of general Counsels, such as are unlawful, or such as are lawful but not approved, (though you would never be able to prove so much out of this place) might need mending; and yet, approved and confirmed Counsels need none.  
I know that some of yours do sleight the distinction of confirmed and not confirmed Counsels, as a thing not known to S. Augustine and other Ancients; but they be mistaken much. If you look into the tome of his Epistles you will see that 
kk S. Aug. Ep. 90.  he, with many other Bishops, in a Council, wrote unto Pope Innocentius, to confirm their acts and decree made against those errors which Pelagius and Celestial had avouched; ut statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur authoritas; that to the decree● of our mediocrity, the authority of the See Apostolic be added. And afterwards, error & impietas quae tam multos assertores habet & per diversa dispersos, etiam Apostolicae sedis authoritate anathematizanda est. The error and impiety (of those men) which hath so many abbetters, and those disperse● in diverse parts or places, is to be anathematised also by the authority of the See Apostolic. Whereunto the Pope answers, (and his Epistle is there 
ll Apud S Aug. Epist. 91.  also) first, commending them for requiring, as they ought to do, the judgement of the See Apostolic, scientes quid Apostolicae sedi debeatur; secondly, confirming this obligation, the Fathers saith he non humana sed divina decreuere sententia ut quicquid de disiunctis remotisque provincijs ageretur, non prius ducerent finiendum nisi ad huius sedis notitiam perveniret, ubi tot a huius authoritate iusta que fuerit pronunciatio, firmaretur; the fathers have decreed by a sentence not humane but divine, (mark the words) that whatsoever should be done in dis●oyned and remote provinces, they should not esteem it to be ended, unless it come first to the notice of this See, where the proposition or sentence which is just should be established with the whole authority of this. thirdly, he declates, quisquis huic assentiens videtur esse sententiae (speaking of the the Pelagian error) nimium se Catholicae fidei, & Dei beneficijs profitetur ingratum, who soever seems to consent into this opinion, doth profess himself an enemy to the Catholic faith, and ingrateful to gods benefits. And in fine, he cuts the faction of, from communion, separetur ergo etc.  
Neither doth S. Augustine omit to give notice of this answer, for in the 106. Epistle, having signified the sending of the acts of the foresaid Council, and of another also, against the same errors; together with letters to the same purpose, to Pope Innocentius; he saith, 
mm S. Aug. Epist. 106. vide eundem Epist. 104. item serm. 2. de verbis Apostoli & li. 2. cont. duas Epist. Pelag. c. 3.  ad omnia nobis ille rescripsit, eodem modo quo fas erat, atque oportebat, Apostolicae sedis antistitem. He wrote us an answer to all things in such manner as a Bishop of the see Apostolic lawfully might before god, and aught to do. Adding also elsewhere, that by those letters, dubitatio tota sublata est, al● doubt in that matter was taken away. I omit to put you further in mind that the Council of 
nn Relat. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem Papam.  Chalcedon asked of Leo the great, as their Head and Father, confirmation of their decrees; which he also gave, though 
oo Leo Papa Epist. 55. ad Pulch. Aug.  not in all they desired, and thereby did manifest the fullness of his authority. It were easy to bring many examples in this kind, were I professedly to treat of it, but keeping myself (as I have done hitherto) to those authors you object, it sufficeth to satisfy by S. Augustine's authority the difficulties which you bring out of S. Augustine. The necessity of the Pope's approbation you find elsewhere, 
Disput. li. 4. c. 4.  and it is a thing so manifest by the Scripture (Matth. 16. & joan. 21.) that he, in his Predecessor S. Peter, is peculiarly designed as Chief of those Pastors on whom the Church is to rely for the knowledge and meaning of God's word, according to the Apostles doctrine, Ephes. 4. 
Ephes. 2.20. Epist. judae. v. 20  (which Pastors are therefore assisted accordingly, to support the faithful built upon them,) that all other interpretation which would exclude it, is violent unto the text; and, 
Disput. li. 4. c. 1. & 2.  inasmuch as it labours to remove the foundation which our Saviour laid, doth endeavour (though vainly, for it is more than Hell can do,) to ruin the whole Church.  
The pretence of plain Scripture, or of manifest reason (such as an understanding man considering, cannot but assent unto,) against the consent of all the Pastors in a Council, is openly insufficient, because it doth suppose (and without, yea against all reason) that they, (the Pastors) with all their Exercise in Divinity and diligent inquisition, looking into and considering the words of Scripture, comparing texts together, examining the traditions of the Church, perusing former Counsels, with the writings of the Fathers, and other monuments of antiquity; and assisted by the Holy Ghost their interior Master; be not as able (as their adversaries) to conceive plain Scripture, 
Innumerabiles sunt qui se videntes non solùm ●actant, sed à Christo illuminatos videri volunt. sunt autem Haeretici. S. Augu. in joan. tract. 45.  and reason so manifest: or, that conceiving and understanding it, they should be, all, so malicious, (and our Saviour so unmindful of his promise) as to propose unto the world and oblige it to believe as our Saviour's words, the contrary. But it is familiar in such Opponents as want themselves that Authority which the Son of God hath established to keep us from Error, to pretend evident Scripture and manifest 
pp Illi, qui cum in unitate atque communione catholica non sint Christiano tamen nomine gloriantur, coguntur adversari credentibus, & audent imperitos quasi ratione traducere, quando maximé cum ista medicina Dominus venerit ut fidem populis imperaret. Sed hoc facere coguntur quia iacere se abiectissimè sentiunt si eorum authoritas cum authoritate catholica conferatur. Conantur ergo authoritatem stabilissimam fundatissimae Ecclesiae quasi rationis nomine & pollicitatione superare. Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas. Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus, & per conventus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium, sedesque ipsas Apostolorum, arce authoritatis munivit Ecclesiam, & per pauciores piè doctos & verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam invictissimae rationis armavit. S. Aug. Epist. ad Diosc. 56.  reason against the Church, to the end they may seem to bring something greater for to oppress or overcome her authority, as S. Augustine well observed long ago. And by the like stratagem did the pagans' heeretefore strive to withdraw men wholly from the Creed, by showing the contrary so clearly that no doubt, as they pretended, could be made of it; which was a way they thought, to get 
qq In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium etc. apud vos autem ubi nihil horum est quod me invitet ac teneat, sola personat veritatis pollicitatio, quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur ut in dubium venire non possit, praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor. Si autem tantummodo promittitur & non exhibetur, nemo me movebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot & tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit. S. Aug. contra Epist. Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promitteba● scientiam veritatis, & nunc quod nescio cogis ut credam. c. 5. Multò iustiùs & cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi, ad te non transeo, nisi me, non credere iusteris, sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris. Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es, dimitte Euangelium. Si ad Euangelium me tenes, ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi, & his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam. Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu invenire potueris, infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi ut tibi non credam. Qua infirmata, iam nec Euangelio credere potero etc. Sed absit ut ego Euangelio non credam. Ibidem.  scholars, but it proved a mere brag.   

§. X.  
1. Optatus cited his Adversaries, who refused to submit themselves to the Church, to be tried by the Testament, admitted by themselves. But the cause itself, was, in the judgement of the whole Catholic world, to be decided in a Council: and was, in fine, so determined.  
2. For finding out the truth, in matter of faith, recourse is to be made to the fountain.  VOs dicitis licet; nos, non licet. inter licet vestrum & non licet nostrum nutant & remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat, nemo nobis: omnes contentiosi homines sumus. (Esto.) Quaerendi sunt iudices, si Christiani, de utraque parte dari non possunt, quia studijs veritas impeditur. Deforis quaerendus est judex: si paganus, non potest nosse Christiana secreta; si judaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis. Ergo in terri● nullum de hac re reperiri po●erit iudictum, de caelo quaerendus est judex. Sed ut quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum. Baro p. 328. ex Optato. 
1. Having answered what was objected out of S. Augugustine; he, will undertake, for us, to satisfy that you bring from Optatus. and where he looks about for a judge to decide the controversy moved by the Donatists, this great Doctor doth answer, yea the 
a S. A●g. contra Donati●tas passim. Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. & li. 1. co●t. Cresc. c. 31. & 32  whole Catholic world did agree, that the matter was to be defined in Council; and that, not by clear scripture; there was none; but by tradition. By the testament; yes. not the written, but, the nuncupative. By the holy Ghost, 
c S Aug suprà inter citat. ex Ock lit. 1.  a judge from heaven; but, speaking (b) in a Council. The whole world did judge, that this very Controversy whereof Optatus speaks, was to be determined so; and accordingly it was so determined and ended.  
Neither doth Optatus deny, that which all Catholics when Saint Augustine wrote, granted, (and he himself yielded as much of the 
c Serpit corum sermo v●lut cancer. dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat esse illis temporibus vitiosa doctrina, etc. Dictum est hoc & de Arrio, cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissiparetur, pectora multorum sicut cancer intraverat. Optat. Milleu. li. 4.  Nicene Council, of whose authority we shall presently hear more from S. Anathasius who was in it,) that the Church, which hath promise of assistance, or the Pastors, all assembled in a Council, those whom the holy Ghost hath placed to govern, and our Saviour hath given to keep us from being borne about with every wind of doctrine, have power to determine a controversy in Religion: But, the Donatists excepting against the Catholics, as parties in the cause, he betakes himself to scripture; against which (being admitted on both sides) that pretended exception, had no place. children that contend about a Legacy, both admit their father testament; and, if there, his words decide the controversy; they rest: and so, he pleads, the Donatists must do when the words of our Saviour's will or testament be showed; unless they proceed (as they had denied church-authority, so) to deny that, and him. So on he goes to show the thing, inscripture. But what if the words of the testament be obscure? The matter than requires a judge; and this judge must have authority, and assistance; if the case be, as this was, about divine faith: which assistance, none hath, but by virtue of our Saviour's promise; and his promise was made to none but to the Church; not to Pagans, nor heretics; but, to the Church: wherefore, the Church is to judge. Yet further: what if the words of the testament have it not at all? the question was, Whether one baptised by an heretic was to be baptised again when he came into the Church. The answer to which Question, you do not find in scripture; the 
d Qui lotus est etc.  place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were baptised by heretics. There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine says, an 
e Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum etc. S. Aug. li. cont. Cresc. c. 33 ut suprà. Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt, sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano, ab eorum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est; sicut sunt multa quae universa tenet Ecclesia, & ob hoc ab Apostolis praecepta benè creduntur, quanquam scripta non reperian tur. li. 5. the bapt. c. 23. Cùm in Scriptures non inveniamus aliquos etc. De unitate Ecclesiae c. 19  example of it. Shall the matter then rest; and the Donatists, against the custom and practice of the Church, obtain the cause? There is yet a remedy; and this is, to call a Council, from all parts of the world; and there, by the promised assistance, to decide it. Which was done accordingly, and in the heart of the Church symbolical, the book wherein Christian Religion is written by the spirit of the living God, it was found, and brought to light; and proposed. And to this judgement, all Catholics afterward did subscribe, and S. Cyprian also who in his time thought the other more probable, would, if we believe Saint Augustine, most willingly have done; and such as would not (having notice of it) were, and are, accounted Heretics.  
2. Hence (that I note this by the way) we take an Argument against you to prove by the judgement of Antiquity, two things. 1. that the Church can propose and oblige us to believe that which she hath received only by word of mouth. 2. that our Saviour did not limit his promised Assistance, to fundamentals only. Not only to fundamentals, nor only to the written word. We have, I say, in these two things, the judgement of the Church which was in, and before Saint Augustine's days, against you. They did inquire, diligently, what had been taught formerly, what tradition had been left in the Church by those who first planted Religion in it; they made recourse to the fountain. Which kind of proceeding for the resolution of difficulties, had been commended to them from the 
f Quid enim & si de aliqua modica quaestione disceptatio esset, nun oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias, in quibus Apostoli conversati sunt, & ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum & reliquidum est? Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquissent nobis, nun oportebat ordinem sequi Traditionis, quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias, cu●●ordinationi assentiunt multae gentes Barbarorum, eorum qui in Christum credunt sinc charactere vel atramento scriptam habentes per Spiritum in cordibus suis salutem, & veterem traditionem diligenter custodientes etc. S. Irenaeus adu. Haeres. li 3. c 4. cuius capitis initio Non oportet, inquit, adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatem, cùm Apostoli quasi in depositorium diues, plenissimè in ea (Ecclesia) contulerint omnia quae sint veritatis, uti omnis quicunque velit, sumat ex ea potum vitae. Et Optatus in hanc sententiam Nam & fontem, inquit, constat unam esse de dotibus, unde Haeretici non possunt vel ipsi bibere, vel alios potare. ita li. 2. Caeterùm lege in Irenaeo c. 3. li. 3. ubi de traditione praeclarè disserit. In compendio est apud religiosas & simplices mentes, & errorem deponere, & invenire atque cruere veritatem. Nam si ad divinae Traditionis caput & originem revertamur, cessat error humanus; & sacramentorum coelestium ratione perspecta, quicquid sub caligine ac nube tenebrarum obscurum latebat, in lucem veritatis aperitur. Si canalis aquam ducens qui copiosè priùs & largiter profluebat, subitò deficiat, nun ad fontem pergitur, ut illic defectionis ratio noscatur, utrumne arescentibus venis in capite unda siccaverit; (siccata sit;) an verò integra inde & plena procurrens, in medio itinere destiterit: ut si vitio interrupti aut bibuli canalis effectum est, quo minus aqua continua perseveranter ac iugiter flueret, refecto & confirmato canali ad usum atque potum civitatis aqua collecta eadem ubertate atque integritate representetur, qua de fonte proficiscitur. Quod & nunc facere oportet Dei Sacerdotes praecepta divina servants, ut si aliquo nutaverit & vacillaverit veritas, ad originem Dominicam & Euangelicam, & Apostolicam Traditionem revertamur; & inde surgat actus nostri ratio, unde & ordo & origo surrexit. S. Cyprianus Epist. 74 ad Pompeium. De qua ep. vide S. Aug li. 5. contra Donat. c. 23 & 25. Vide etiam de modo veritatem investigandi, Tertullianum, lib. de Prescript. c. 19 20. 21. etc.  beginning; and was in after-ages still approved, as appears by the 
* See the Tomes of Counsels  practice of the Church upon all occasions of importance.   

§. XI.  
Saint Athanasius esteemed it a vain thing for those who would not stand unto the Nicene decree, to call for Counsels. He did esteem the decree of it, infallible. Of diverse infallible Authorities, one may he more powerful and commanding then another.  FRustra igitur circumcursitantes praetexerunt ob fidem se Synodos postulare, cum sit divina Scriptura omnibus potentior. Quod si ad hanc rem usus Synodi desideratur, supersunt acta patrum: nam neque in hac parte negligentes fuere qui Niceae convenerunt, sed ita accuratè scripserunt ut qui sinceriter eorum scripta legate, facilè reminiscatur eius in Christum religionis quae à sacris literis annunciatur. Baro. p. 327. ex Athanasio. 
S. ATHANASIUS was at the Council of Nice, where the Arian heresy was anathematised, and the Catholic faith established; yet he is also brought against the authority of all general Counsels; first because he tells the Arians, (who would not stand to the judgement of that Council which was ecumenical, and yet cried out for Counsels,) that in vain they run about the world pretending they required Counsels for the faith, whereas the divine scripture is more powerful than all. secondly because he saith that, who so reads the writings or acts of the Nicene fathers, they will easily call to mind that Religion which is showed in holy scripture.  
I am not yet so learned as to conceive how, the infallibility of Counsels is any way contradicted in these words; so fare I am from thinking that this great Saint did forget himself, and undo what with others he before had done. The decree of the Nicene Council, together with the Acts, did so bring to mind the faith commended in the scripture, that withal it had force, he saith, enough to 
a Quis usus quaeso Conciliorum, quum Nicaenum Concilium adversus Arianam caeterasque haereses satis valeat? S. Athanas. de Synodis. Indecens & nefarium aliquid ex rectè & iustè decretis, & ex rebus Niceae publicè cum illustrissimo principe Constantino patre tuo per accuratam deliberationem constitutis immutare velle, etc. per quam (Synodum) non illa sola, sed & reliquae haereses sublatae sunt, in qua certè & addere aliquid temerarium est, & auferre periculosum. Ibidem epist. Synod, ad Constantium. August. ●ufficiunt ea quae Niceae confessa fuere, satisque per se vi●um habent, tum ad subversionem impij dogmatis, tum ad ●telam utilitatemque Ecclesiasticae doctrinae. Idem in E●st. ad Episc. Africa.  overthrow the contrary, and to put the matter 
b Ego arbitrabar omnium quotquot unquam fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitatem Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse. nam fides quae inibi a Patribus secundum sacras Scripturas tradita, & confessionibus confirmata est, satis mihi idonea, efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem evertendam, & pietatem eius quae in Christo est fidei constituendan Atque ideo diversis Concilijs per Gallian & Hispanias, & Romae celebratis, omnes qui in eo conventu fuere, istos luci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant & quae Arrij sunt sapiunt, comm● calculo unius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt, e● quod isti sibi nomina vendicaverint Synodorum etc. 〈◊〉 Athanas. Epist. ad Epictet. Qua igitur audacia fit ut post tanti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones inf●tuant? Ibidem.  out 〈◊〉 question; and so fare, that, who 〈◊〉 did oppose themselves, were 
c Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec sustinuisse, quod non simul & istos compescuerit, & piam●dem (in Concilio Nicaeno traditam ut suprà) illis propos●erit, ut ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent, vel si inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur. Ibidem.  heretics. It was a vain thing so he steemed it, in the Arians by other Counsels, to seek to reverse what was ●●ere established; the definition of ●●e holy Ghost, there made, the word ●f God, by that Council, remains fo●uer; 
d Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud (Nicenum) ali● subinde concilia moliuntur, quip qui plusquam decem synodos iam instituerint, in singulis semper aliquid innovantes etc. ignari interim omnem plantationem qua● non plantaverit pater caelestis cradicandam esse: verb●● autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet. S Athanas. Epist. ad Episc. Africa.  verbum illud Domini per ●licaenum Concilium manet in aeter●um.  
As for the comparison which he ●akes, with scripture; it 
e Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed anteponunt Concilijs: neque in hoc ulla controversia es● Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliq● Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia sive 〈◊〉 Concilio, non intelligunt quoad authoritatem & secundum se, sed quoad explicationem & quoad nos. Ibidem.  hurteth ●ot. He that saith, the scripture where it is plain and universally ●eceaued, is more powerful than a Council; or that, the eternal vertie openly revealed, as it is to Saints, 〈◊〉 more powerful than scripture; ●oth not prejudice infallibility. Both ●ay have it, and yet one be more powerful. And this supposed, visit ●hat both scripture and the counsel, be infallible; but the power of cripture more; the discourse of S. Athanasius is convincing. He tha● will not submit his judgement to tha● authority which is most powerful▪ doth in vain pretend he will be ruled by the less; he doth easily contemn a Council, who contemne● the Scripture, proposed by the universal Church; as the Arians did, who contradicted open Scripture, and all Antiquity.  
Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of controversies, by Counsels; for, though the way of Counsels be a certain way to determine what we must believe, yet may there be another way to find it out; and that certain too. And doubtless, he that seethe in scripture that, which he knows the whole symbolical Church (that which holds out the book wherein ●he reads it,) doth believe, is more powerfully moved to give assent, than he that hears a Council only. And our assent is more prove when the Prophets and Apostles all, propose the same, then when one alone doth avouch it; though one Prophet or Apostle by himself be sufficient and infallible.   

§. XII.  
Vincentius Lirinensis will have church-authority relied upon in matter of faith, as certain and undoubted. How a man is to carry himself, when matter of faith is questioned. The way to find the Catholic sense. General Counsels, infallible in their decrees; and those are Heretics that contradict and oppose them.  SAepe magno study & summa attentione perquirens à quaplurimis sanctitate & doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam & quasi generali ac regulari vi● Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae pravitatis falsitate disc●nere; huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli. Quo● sive ego sive quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fra●des deprehendere laqueosque vitare & in fide sanus atque integer permanere, duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adiovante deberet; Primò scilicet, divinae legis authoritate: tu● deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione. Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1. 
VINCENTIUS LIRINENSIS▪ The argument taken from this Father is, that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô● novationes, he hath omitted to specify general Counsels and their decrees, and diverse leaves are spent t● prove that he did not give unto them any place in the direction of our belief. But no pains will serve. H● doth more than once or twice mention them, and hath testified wha● he thought of their authority. Two general 
a Vicent. Lyrin. c. 1.  ways there are to distinguish the truth from error in mat●er of Religion; the one by Scripture, ●he other by Tradition: but the scripture is profound and obscure, whereupon it hath come to pass that diverse heretics have interpreted it ●iuers ways; so that, to know the ●ight meaning of it, it is necessary ●o recurre to tradition; and, (as he ●aith in the second chapter of his book) 
b Idem c. 2. vide Disp. li. 5. c 1. & li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. & pag. 395 fine,  that the line of the prophetical and Apostolical interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiastical and Catholic sense. Which Catholic sense, may be found three ways chiefly, according as he conceives it; one is to see if it be held by the symbolical or universal Church; a second is, to see if it be held by the Fathers, each writing in his own time; a third, to see whether it be defined in any general Council. By these three ways principally, a man is directed to the Catholic or true sense of scripture: and all three are not necessary, but any of the three will serve the turn. 
c V●i●nt. c. ●.  In the Catholic Church, saith he, we must have a great care we hold that which hath been believed every where; that which hath been believed ever; that which hath been believed by all, for this is truly and properly Catholic as the power of the name and the definition doth declare, which truly doth comprehend all universally. And this is done in fine if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. Universality we shall follow thus; if we confess that one faith to be true which the whole Church through the world doth acknowledge: And antiquity thus; if we do not in any sort go back from those senses which it is manifest that our holy Ancestors and Fathers have celebrated and commended: and Censent likewise, if we follow the definitions and decrees of all, or near all, the priests and masters in Antiquity. And 
d Quid igitur faciet Christianus Catholicus, si se aliqua Ecclesiae particula ab universalis fidei communione praeciderit? quid utique, nisi ut pestisero corruptoque membro sanitatem universi corporis anteponats quod si novella aliqua contagia non iam portiunculam tantum sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur? (locum hunc corruperunt Wittaker & Vitus, haeretici,) tunc item providebit ut antiquitati inhaereat; quae prorsus iam non potest ulla novitatis fraude seduci. Quid si in ipsa vetustate duorum aut trium hominum vel certè civitatis unius aut etiam provinciae alicuius error deprehendatur? Tunc omnino curabit ut paucorum temeritati, vel inscitiae, fi qua sunt universaliter antiquitus universalis Ecclesiae decreta praeponat. Quid si tale aliquid emergat ubi nihil huiusmodi reperiatur? Tuuc operam dabit ut collatas inter se Maiorum consulat interroge●que sententias; eorum dumtaxat qui diversis licet temporibus & locis, in unius tamen Ecclesiae Catholica communione & fide permanentes, magistri probabiles extiterunt: & quicquid non unus aut duo tantum sed omnes pariter uno eodemque consent, apertè, frequenter, perseveranter, tenuisse, scripsisse, docuisse cognoverit, id sibi quoque intelligat absque ulla dubitatione credendum. Vinc. Lyrin c. 4.  more he hath to the same purpose.  
He lived in the year 440. and before he wrote this book, there had been three general Counsels; whose decrees, though not made, the 
* Nicenum anno 325.  first of them, much more than a hundred years before him, he ●umbers amongst the records of antiquity which are to be looked into. And in like manner, the decrees ma●e 200. 500 1000 years before us, ●ake place and order in the records ●f antiquity, respectivelie to our times: the distance of precedence ●eing more, than was the distance of any Council precedent, respectivelie unto him.  
You are further to observe, that, ●o the universality of a truth he doth not require, that it be distinctly believed of all that profess Christian religion; some have professed it who believed not the blessed Trinity, others denied the Incarnation; the greatest mysteries were not Catholic in this sense, neither doth ●he require that a point or verity which is Catholic, be such that it hath been expressly and distinctly believed of all Catholics at all times; the Catholic Epistles in this sense 
e Vide Disp. pag. 431. An excellent lesson for these times.  were not all, Catholic: but his meaning is, (as I insinuated before,) that a sense or verity appertaining to faith, which is believed by the Symbolical, that is by the universal catholic Church, either always, or at any time, (for it can never err in divine faith;) or, which the Fathers have uniformly in their times and ages taught, and professed; or, which hath been defined by all, or near all the Pastors, (those which are to teach,) in a general council; is to be received as a Catholic sense.  
Twice, in that little book, herepeates again this matter of finding out the Catholic sense by antiquity consenting, either in Council, or out of Council; and, by universality; and in both places the definition of general Counsels, and their authority comes in. As, in the 38. chapter, where giving direction how to avoid heretics, who like the Devil urge Scriptures against the truth, in this case, saith he, Catholics shall take great care that they interpret the divine canon according to the traditions of the universal Church, and according to the rules of the Catholic doctrine or decree; wherein likewise it is necessary that they follow the universality, antiquity, and consent of the Catholic Church. And if at any time a part doth rebel against the whole, novelty against antiquity, or the disagreement of one or some few erring persons against the consent of all, or at least of fare more Catholics; let them prefer the integrity of the whole, before the corruption of the part. And in the same whole, the religion of antiquity before the profaneness of novelty: as also in antiquity itself, let them prefer before the rashness of a very few, 
f primum omnium generalia, si qua sunt, universalis concilij decreta praeponant; tunc deinde, si id minus est, sequantur quod proximum est, multorum atque magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum. Vincent. Lirin. c 38.  first of all if any be, the general decrees of an ecumenical Council: then after, if that be not, let them follow that which is next, (to wit) the sentences or opinions of many and great masters consenting among themselves.  
In the next chapter, he tells what Fathers those must be, whose opinions we take; they must be 
g Idem c. 39  orthodox, such as living piously in the Catholic faith and communion, and remaining constant, have died in Christ; or happily been put to death for him: and those he saith are so to be believed, that what soever either all, or the greater part, have established or confirmed, receiving, holding, or delivering, with one and the same meaning, manifestly, oft, constantly, as it were in a certain council of masters agreeing among themselves, the same is to be esteemed certain and undoubted. And again in the 
h Idem c. 40.  next, Hos, in Ecclesia Dei divinitus per tempora & loca dispensatos, quisquis in sensu Catholici dogmatis unum aliquid in Christo sentientes contempserit, non hominem contemnit sed Deum. He that contemns these (fathers) divinely distributed, according to times and places, in the Church of God; agreeing in Christ in the sense of a Catholic point of doctrine, he contemneth not man, but God. So great he esteemeth this authority of the fathers and masters, which God hath dispensed, not at one, but in several times; and yet, the general decrees of an ecumenical Council, with him, have 
i c. 38. ut suprà.  the precedence; primum omnium generalia, si qua sint, universalis Concilij decreta praeponant; tunc deinde, si id minus est, sequantur quod proximum est, multorum at que magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum.  
Again in the 41. chapter he repeats a second time the same matter, of finding out the Catholic sense by antiquity, consenting, in Council or out of Council: where he speaks yet more home. 
k Diximus in ipsa Ecclesiae vetusta●e duo quae●am vehementer studioseque obseruamda, quibus penitus inhaerere deberent, quicunque haeretici esse nolunt. Primum si qu●d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus universalis Concilij authoritate decretum: Deinde si qua nova etc. c. 41. Exemplum adhibuimus Sancti Concili● quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est etc. Vniversis Sacerdotibus, qui illò ducenti feré convenerant etc. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse etc. c. 42.  We have said that in the antiquity of the Church two things are greatly and with great diligence to be observed; (quibus) whereunto, all those must adhere steedfastlie, that will not be heretics: (why do you start?) first of all, if any thing should be anciently defined with the authority of an ecumenical Council, by all the Priests of the Catholic Church: and next, if any new question should arise wherein that were not found, recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holy Fathers, those only who every one in their own time and place were found to be approved masters, continuing still in the unity of communion and faith: and what soever they be found to have held with one and the same meaning and consent, that without all scruple should be judged the true and Catholic (doctrine) of the Church. Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolical or universal, be two other rules, whereunto all, that will not be flat heretics, must of necessity conform themselves; the decrees of ecumenical Counsels, and, the uniform consent of Fathers. I leave you now, to compare your condition, with his opinion. What he delivers in this matter, is not his doctrine alone. 
c. 1.   
That you conceive him the better, he presently brings, for instance or example, the proceed of the Council of Ephesus (held 
l c. 42.  three years, no more, before he wrote this book,) wherein Nestorius was condemned; the anathematisms of the Council you may see when you please. It is worth the noting by the way, for it is your practice too, and indeed, of all heretics, that Nestorius, as he relates in the end of the chapter, renounced the authority of the Church in deciding controversies, affirming 
m c. 43.  totam etiam nunc errare, & semper errasse Ecclesiam, that the whole Church even now, (in the time of the Council) doth err, and always hath erred. In the last chapter of all, he brings in the authority of the See Apostolic and in fine, concludes his book, If neither Apostolical definitions, nor Ecclesiastical decrees, whereby according to the sacred consent of universality and antiquity, all Heretics ever, and in fine Pelagius, Caelestius, Nestorius, have been deservedly condemned, be to be violated, it is necessary verily that all Catholics hereafter, which have a care to show themselves lawful children of the mother-Church, be associated and close joined unto the faith of the holy Fathers, and, so insist, that they die, in it: and that they detest, abhor, speak against, persecute, the profane novelties of profane men.   

§. XIII. Exceptions against a text, or two, refuted.  
THE last Opposition which you make, is against two of the places of Scripture, which our Divines bring to confirm the Counsels infallibility. These also, lest you conceive there is difficulty, I will consider as fare as your Opposition goes, (though otherwise not meddling with the Question de jure, which you find in our Divines discussed at large,) and then make an end. The one of these places contains our Saviour's promise of the Holy Ghosts assistance, made unto the Church; The Spirit of Truth when he comes, shall teach you all truth. joan. 14. & 16. The other of the places represents unto us the interpretation of the foresaid promise, as it was understood by the Apostles, who relying on it, met in Council and there defined a Controversy; It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us. Acts 15.  
Against the former place, you say, first that it is meant of the Apostles only. This is false: for it is, forever; I will ask my father, and he will give you another comforter, that he remain with you for ever, the Spirit of truth. And, apud vos manebit, he shall remain with you, Io. 14. the Catholic Church is his mystical body, which cannot subsist without his Spirit; and, for confirmation and illustration of her faith, not only in the Apostles time when our Saviour was gone, but ever since, after they be gone, she needs assistance of the Spirit. Neither was it his mind to leave the faithful without such comfort, non relinquam vos orphanos, 
joh. 14.  I will not leave you orphans. O father, establish, confirm, sanctify them, in the truth. I ask not for them only, 
joh. 17.  (the Apostles) but for the Church, for those which by their word shall believe in me. That, by thy providence, for my sake, in our Spirit, all be, as it were, one; and agree (to their proportion) as we do; who do judge, and approve, still, the same.  
But tell me; hath the Spirit left the Church, or is he still in it? if he hath left it, how hath she supernatural operations? how doth she believe the divine word? how doth she subsist? as the Gospel saith she shall, notwithstanding all the endeavours of hell itself. 
Mat. 16.  If he doth remain in it, it is then true that the promise holds still, even that, which was made unto the Church, in the Apostles time, and began first to be fulfilled in them.  
The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two; one of God the Father, to send his son to redeem the world; the other of God the Son, to send the holy Ghost, his spirit, to teach and instruct his Church: if you do not believe the later is performed, you will give us cause to think that you would evacuate the former too, and not trust God, at all, in his promise; nor in his covenant neither; (though so fare you trust one another. 
jerem. 35. Ezech. 37. ) I will give my law in their bowels, and in their hart I will write it, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. My Spirit that is in thee, and my words that I have put in thy mouth, 
Isa. 59  shall not departed out of thy mouth, and out of the mouth of thy seed, and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord, from this present, and forever. See the Disp. li. 3.  
secondly you say, that it is not to be understood of all the dogmatic points, or doctrine, by our Saviour revealed, and delivered unto the Church; but of some points only; ●hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed; and not necessarily of all those neither. Here again you do manifestly contradict the text of Scripture; and open the way to let error and heresy into the Church. For, if the holy Ghost teach no more, by the promise of our Saviour, than those few points; it is impossible for men to know the truth touching other revealed verities; though they be necessary to be known. And the judge of controversies, the holy Ghost, being put ●o silence, error, in all other matters of that kind, is remediless.  
For example; if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptism; this error were pernitions to the Church; and ●hould it prevail in all, (as it might ●f the holy Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed,) both infants, and others inmumerable, would be ruined thereby: for, unless a man be borne again of water and the holy Ghost, 
joh. 3.  he shall ●ot enter into the kingdom of heaven. The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed, yet you say that it is necessary to receive it, and, by the divine command, in both kinds. The commandments and the interpretation which our Saviour gave of them, be not expressed there; yet the Church hath, them, and the whole Christian law, written in her heart by the spirit of the living God. Our obligations towards superiors, of all sorts, (in conscience, and by divine precept, to be performed,) and the rules of Christian conversation, be not expressed there, though the Church may not be ignorant of them Pastors and Bishops are necessary and, by God ordained for her direction; and the Prophecies be necessary for confirmation of her faith; and therefore she is to know both the one and the other, though they be not expressly in the Apostles Creed.  
I speak of that Creed, because you name it; as also, because the certainty of other Creeds, set out in Counsels; or, of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed. I acknowledge it, as proceeding from the assistance of the holy Ghost, to the Church, in more than is expressed in the Apostles Creed. Hence it is that I believe the Nicene, or that of S. A●hanasius. if you believe it too, then ●ecall your answer; for whilst it stands, there is no remedy for errors in these matters, and many more; nor way of assurance for many things, which it is necessary for the Church to know.  
Moreover it is certain by the Gospels, that our blessed Saviour ●aught many things to the Church, ●oth before his passion, and after his resurrection, which are not expressed in the Apostles Creed, whereunto, you think, only, assistance is ex●ended. Read the Gospel of S. ●ohn all over, or of S. Luke, or S. Ma●hewe; and you shall find this to be ●ue. And these things also, the Spirit, according to promise, doth suggest. I have yet many things to say vn●o you, which you cannot bear now; ●ut, when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, ●e shall teach you all truth: for he shall ●ot speak of himself; 
joh. 16.  but what things soever be shall hear, he shall speak. This before his passion; and after it, for forty days he appeared to them, speaking of the kingdom of God. 
Act. Apost. c. 1.  Now, that all this, whether written, or not written, otherwise then by the holy Ghost in the mind and heart of the Church, is included within the object of the promised assistance, I prove by no less authority then of our Saviour jesus Christ; upon whose promises, all that acknowledge him to be true God, 
joh. 14.  should rely, believing them and him, as most faithful. He, (the Spirit of truth) shall teach you all things, and suggest unto you, all whatsoever I shall have said unto you.  
It is also necessary for the Church to know the Scripture, and the sē●●, which without assistance of the holy Ghost cannot be done, as I could easily show were I to treat of that matter: 
Vide Disputat. li. 3. c. 4. & 5.  but forbearing that discourse, 〈◊〉 demand Whether it be necessary for the Church to know that o●● Saviour did ordain Baptism, and Eucharist, and Order? (if perchance you think the institution of Bishop to be 
* Acts 20.  divine;) and, how a man may know the meaning of those passages of Scripture which do mention these things; or, that the texts, indeed be, Scripture; if the holy Ghost, doth by promise, teach the Church no more than what is expressed in the Apostles Creed? I demand also, how you come to be certain that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed? or, that he doth teach any at all? if by the Scripture; them he teacheth more than is expressed in the Apostles Creed; for, the Scripture is not expressly there. And my demand returns again with a greater difficulty than before; If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed, how be you certain that the Gospels be divine Scripture? who taught you that? The same Question I will ask, and you must answer (mark well) of every Cha●ter; and of the meaning of every verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine; or to make for any piece, of your Religion.  
thirdly, some perchance will object, that though he teach the Church all the dogmatic points, or heavenly doctrine which our Saviour taught and commended, yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors, but only of the symbolical or universal Church, which may retain it, though the Bishops and Pastors all should err. You know, out of the beginning of this Relection, where this evasion is insinuated; and being beaten from your own heretical tenet of the whole Church erring, you seem to make an offer, in the end to repose here. But, none that believes the Scripture, can rest in it; First because our Saviour's words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors, who were to teach; and needed assistance in it; 
Ioann. 14.  he shall teach you. And so they did understand it, as appears by their decree whereof I am to speak afterwards. secondly the symbolical or universal Church doth include Pastors and people; and the people are to learn of the Pastors, whose office is to teach; how shall they believe unless they hear? and how shall they hear with out a preacher? Rom. 10. Teach all Nations, was said, 
Matth. vlt.  not to the people, but to the Pastors; 
joann. vlt.  and S. Peter and his successors in him, were bid to feed the flock of Christ: wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people, and among them the predestinate, depend for instruction, should be assisted in their teaching: especially then when they speak all, the same. thirdly, our Saviour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church, 
Ephes. 4.  to the end that we be not wavering and borne about with every wind of doctrine, in the circumvention of error; and if this means, which is established till the world's end, be fit for this purpose, (as no Christian can think otherwise of our Saviour's providence, whom he believes to be God,) it is assisted so, that it never errs in the doctrine of the faith which it delivers to the world with obligation to believe it. fourthly, if ever we are to believe that Christ speaketh and resolveth doubts by the Pastors of the Church, according to that, He which heareth you heareth me, 
Luc. 10.  he which contemneth you contemneth me; we must believe, that when all, deliver one and the same thing, as God's word or meaning, unto the world; then, without all doubt, our Saviour speaks by them: and he who hears or contemns them, doth hear or contemn jesus Christ, whose ministers and Ambassadors they be. 
2. Corint. 5.   
Neither do you satisfy this argument by saying that you will hear them if they speak according to the word of God; 
Disput. li. 3. c. 1. & 2.  for, therein you challenge unto yourself, without warrant, that, which you deny to the whole clergy, who in the Apostles were bid teach, and had the promise of assistance: and, in the Question, Whether they or you have the true sense of God's word, (as of this, This is my body,) you, most arrogantly, do make yourself the judge. Yourself I say, without the Spirit; denying in the mean time, and impugning the power of judging in this case, in and to them, which have and show, the promise of the Spirit. 
 Diodorum ac Theod. non expellerent PP. aut invenerunt eos iam mutasse sententiam, aut quod extremum est, admonitos mutate fecerunt. Nam aliter co● in Ecclesia Catholica manner potuisse quis sapiens Catholicus credat? Cum verò tanta quae dicta sunt, ego indoctus & Latinae linguae, de causa apud Graecos habita, post centum annos pro meo captu & facultate, vel intelligere vel explicare potuerim, quanta credendum est illam Sanctorum Patrum Congregationem in causa penes se & recenti memoria cognoscere potuisse, illo etiam revelante qui dixit, Vbi sunt duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo, ibi in medio eorum sum? Nam fideliter invocatus non solum à Sacerdotibus, sed ab omni quoque populo suo, cuius fides & expectatio ex illorum Authoritate dependet, dat omnibus congregatis unum cor & animam unam, ut nullus eorum suam velit esse sententiam, nisi quae fuerit veritatis. Quo●ies ibi doctiores indoctioribus, & plures paucioribus, illo eorum medio cedunt? Q●oties etiam per nescientes scienter operatur ipse qui potest omnia facere supra quam petimus, aut intelligimus; qui promisit quòd nobiscum sit omnibus di●bus usque ad consummationem saeculi? utinam sibi nunquam saecularis potestas, quod ei creditum non est, in his negotijs usurparet, quae nunquam faeliciter usurpavit. Caeterùm congregatis in suo nomine Christus deesse non potest: quia cùm sit omnipotens Veritas, mentiri nullatenus potest. Facund. Episc. Defence. Chalced. Concilij li 8. c. 7. Et in eandem sententiam plura, li. 12. c. 2. inter alia verò, de sancto Leone dicit, Neque ulterius retractare neque discutere se posse professus est ea, quae semel fuerant Chalcedonensi definita Concilio, velut quae nosset non tam humano quàm divino Spiritu constituta. This Father, as also S. Aug. when they say God reveals unto the Council, use the word something largely, in the sense imported in the promise of Assistance; docebit vos. suggeret vobis. See the Disput. pag 404.  See the Disput. l. 3. c. 6.  
Fourthly, he that seethe the truth of this, and would yet fly Counsels, will imagine perchance, that, although the Pastors all dispersed, when they consent, have the warrant of the Spirit; yet, not when they be gathered in a Council. But this imagination argues a weakness in conceaving the terms which are spoken of; for, in this congregation or Council, there is the whole teaching-power: which teaching power, (as hath been showed) hath, and by promise, divine assistance; and is to establish the rest, predestinate and all, in faith and true belief.  
fively, you will say that in general Counsels all the Pastors or Bishops be not present; if they were, you would believe what they propose; because the whole exterior teaching-authoritie is there obliging; and they show their warrant, 
Luc. ●0  he that heareth you heareth me. Would your fellows do this, there were but one thing more to be disputed in this matter, that is, Whether it be necessary to the generality of a Council, that all the Pastors and Bishops without exception, be actually present in it; the resolution of which Question we have in the practice of the Apostles, and of the primitive Church. so that no further difficulty can be pretended, if the truth be really our desire, and heretical obstinacy put aside. See the Disput. li. 4. c. 7. & 8.  
Against the later place, which brings with it the Apostles interpretation of the promise registered in the former; it is said first that, although that Council had the assistance of the holy Ghost in making of their decree, so that it was, his also, as their words import; yet others after, have it not, it was, (you think) a privilege in them, and lasted no longer in the Church, but wilt they lived. This evasion is precluded, both by the words, and the circumstances of the grant; it was made unto the Apostles as Pastors, for establishing of the Church, (dedit pastors, 
Ephes. 4.  ut iam non simus paruuli fluctuantes, & circumferamur etc.) which Church needed it, not only in the Apostles time, but afterwards, 
The Arian, Sabellian, Nestorian, and other Heresies.  as other difficulties (whereof some were about the most fundamental points, in the very Creed,) did arise: and the devil hath not yet done, suggesting heresy and oppugning the doctrine which our Saviour left unto the Church; and thereby, impugning Him, and Her; wherefore, still it is necessary. And accordingly, the promise was absolute; without limitation of years; or ages. Yea the text itself, hath in aeternum, 
joann. 14. Ephes. 4.  for ever: and, donec occurramus omnes, until we meet all.  
secondly it is said, that unto Pastors so assembled, the holy Ghost by virtue of the promise, is present assisting to fundamental points; but no further. Before, you would have detracted from the grant and wiped out of it, the latitude of time: now you limit it for the matter. If a Lawyer should use your lease so, you would exclaim that he did corrupt it. When our Saviour had prayed to his Father that he would establish or Sanctify his Apostles (and those who by their means were to believe in him, that is, his Church,) in the truth; he did presently, unfold what he meant by that truth, and said sermo tuus est veritas, thy word (the word of God) is the truth; and in this, which comprehends not the Apostles Creed only, he would have them established. This sanctification is according to S. Cyrill, a participation of the holy Ghost, ad intelligendas rectè Scripturas, & Ecclesiae dogmata, 
Cyrill. Alex. in joan. li. 11. cap. 25.  to understand the Scriptures well, and the doctrine of the Church. In a like fullness doth our Saviour himself express the latitude of this assistance, the shall teach you all things and suggest unto you all what soever I shall have said unto you. 
Ioann. 14.  So did the Apostle understand it also, in saying that Pastors are given to the end we do not waver, 
Ephes. 4.  nor be borne about with every wind of doctrine. Such a giddiness, happens in other things also, besides fundamentals.  
The Church likewise believes the grant to be thus universal; to all our Saviour's doctrine: as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in general Counsels; as in that of Trent. And so much you will acknowledge of the primitive Church, if you reflect upon that which hath been said out of S. Augustine, in the Donatists case about Baptism; which controversy (not being expressed in the Apostles Creed,) was in a Council, defined; and, in virtue of this assistance; by the whole Christian world. Neither do you find the difficulty, which was resolved by the Apostles in their Council, put into the Creed.  
thirdly you say that out of a general assistance, such as God gives every man towards every good work, infallibility cannot be inferred; and more you will not grant. But our Saviour granted more; he promised the holy Ghost should teach the Church all truth; 
joh. 14. & 16.  and his lessons must not be doubted of; he cannot miss the truth, or teach a lie. The sense which he doth inspire, teach, affirm, is certain; and the falsity of any one thing (were it possible he should teach a falsity,) would infinitely prejudice his authority, in the estimation of his creatures, yea, the whole Scripture would be questioned, if this ground were not firm; 
●. Petr. 1.  if that were not certain, which men, inspired by the holy Ghost, and affirming, as from him, or he, in them; might be false.  
fourthly you say that if the Council follow Scripture, it hath assistance and is infallible; but not else. This supposeth that the Church without assistance can understand the Scripture, or teach and define matter of faith; whereas our Saviour in the Scripture saith, 
Ioann. 15.  without him we can do nothing; and therefore he hath promised assistance, that we may know his will, and our duty; and left the holy Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth. The jews, and Pagans, and heretics, look on Scripture; but they do not understand it. The Church hath a Master the Holy Ghost, left to teach her; and by his help, doth understand. What need a Schoolmaster, if your child doth by himself understand his book? or will you call it instruction, if he never tell him any thing, but what the child himself knows before? you know moreover, that when the Controversy is about the Scripture, the written word; or, about the Apostles Creed; or general tradition; assistance is necessary: and also, for the sense of Scripture, more than is by your definition, fundamental. To omit, that in your answer you allow the Church no greater security from error, by the promised assistance, than you grant to be in pagans and heretics without it: for, they dot not err, if they follow Scripture, and judge as it is there. So little is the discretion of this answer, and so small a benefit, or rather no benefit you conceive to be bestowed in that fair promise. Whereas we, believe our Saviour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breaks his word: he can, and will, make and bring to pass, 
Ezech. 36.  that she walk in his precepts. He writes his laws in her heart; 
jerem. 31.  what hinders him? and keeps his words, 
Isa. 59  in her mouth. He hath opened a School, and put a Master in the chair. Docebit saith he, he shall teach; and, if the lesson be forgot, suggeret, 
joan. 14.  he shall bring it to mind again: he is not to stay till men find it of themselves; he is Master, and shall teach it.  
fively, you say that you are content exterior obedience be given to general Counsels, but no more. Yet more must be given to the holy Ghost, and in Counsels He defineth. Visum est Spiritui Sancto & nobis, 
Act. 15.  were the words of the Council, it seemeth good to the holy ghost and to us; not to us only, but to him, in himself; and in us, here assembled, with his assistance (promised in cases of this nature, and we are certain that he who promised will perform,) to decide a controversy: our act, is, his act; 
2 Cor. 13.  to Him it hath seemed good. In S. Paul Christ spoke; the Apostles words, 
1. Thess. 1.  were acknowledged to be, and were indeed, the words of God; 
Luc 10.  the holy Ghost speaks in the Church; the definition is his: you must believe it; and, 
Matt. 18.  remotis dubitationibus to use S. Augustine's words; 
S. Aug. suprà.  there is no more doubt to be made of it.  
In the conclusion of your discourse you repeat again what you said in the beginning, 
Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquente●e● homine. Volunt tamen posse ab eo provocari in foro in ●erno sea conscientiae. Si● Wittakerus etc. Sed hoc facilè refellitur, tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori: tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno, scilicet in fide; ergo non licet in eo foro provocare à judice Ecclesiae, alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae: tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum, & aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod judex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae: tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo & non in interno, teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei, eamque non confiteri coram hominibus, nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem. Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis & in animas ipsas, ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum. Reverendiss. Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28.  that we believing the Counsels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holy Ghost in virtue of our Saviour's promise made unto the Church, attribute more to them then Antiquity hath done. The vanity of which your pretence sufficiently appears by that which hath been answered to your exceptions in particular. You find none that denies what we believe. Yea those whom you produce to speak against us, affirm it, constantly. And who more Ancient in the rank of Christians, than the Apostles themselves, whose testimony you have heard in our behalf. You have been told also that in Saint Augustine's days the Catholics universally, and amongst them the greatest scholars submitted their judgements to the judgement of the Church in Council: and this too, though the point so determined were neither fundamental, nor found in Scripture. You shall find also (as hath been likewise insinuated by occasion of your discourse) in the Council of Chalcedon, six hundred Fathers together, acknowledging divine assistance to the Nicene, so fare, that the Decrees, they said, could not be retracted without 
1 Si ergo Spiritus Sanctus consedit Patribus, ut manifeste consedit & ordinavit que ordinata sunt, qui retractat ea Spiritus Sancti cassat gratiam. Sancta Synodus dixit, Omnes haec dicimus. Anathema qui retractat. Conc. Chalced. Acti. 1.  making void the grace of the Holy Ghost. And others accordingly say they were 
2 S. Leo, Epist. 53. & 54. vide etiam S. Aug. li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39  divinely ordained, 
3 Si quis fidem illam à sancta & magna Synodo optimè & divino afflatu definitan ac expositam, dicere voluerit basim animarum nostrarum, fundamentum que inconcussum & munitum, is utique probatissime loquitur. Lib. 1. de Trinit apud Cyrill. Alexand. Suis auten verbis à nobis scribatur, divinum & sanctissimum Synodi illius Oraculum. Ibiden. Vide S. Ambros li. 1. de Fide, ad Gratian.  oracles of faith. It sufficeth to make instance in that one, being the first ecumenical that was celebrated after the Apostles days; to show that it stopped not in them, but was continued after their (the Apostles) time, unto the Church. And in like manner it was afforded afterwards to the second, and the third, and fourth; the decrees of which 
4 li. 1 Regest. Epist. 24. Quintum quoque Concilium pariter ve●eror. Ibidem  S. Gregory, our Apostle, did honour as the Gospels; and so also to the rest; by virtue of one and the same Promise; made absolutely, to the Church. Upon which promise that also of the Apostles did rely, as before hath been observed.  
Moreover the Fathers held, that the definitions of ecumenical Counsels might not be called into 
a Conc. Chalc. acti 1. anathema ●●qui re●ractat. De rebus apud Nicaean, & apud Chalcedonam definitis, nullum audemus inire tractatum, tanquam dubia vel infirma sint, quae tanta per Spiritum sanctum fixit authoritas. S. Leo epist. 78. ubi plura in eandem sententiam.  doubt; that they were rather to lose their 
b S. Ambros. epist. 32. S. Hier. contra Luciferian.  lives then to deny them; that those who did oppugn them, were 
c Nullo modo fieri potest ut q●i divinis a●dent contradicere sacramentis aliqua nobis communio●e socientur S. Epist 78. Pat●faciētes in omnibus & probantes non esse omnino inter Catholicos computandos, qui definitiones venerabilis Synodi Nicenae, vel sancti Chalcedonensis Concilij regulas non sequuntur. Ibidem.  not Catholics, but 
d S. August. de Haeres. nu 69. S. Basil. epist. 78. S. Athanas. epist. ad Epict. Vincent. Lyri. c. 41.  heretics. And the Counsels themselves did 
e Conc Nice. Ephesin. etc.  anathematise all, that rejected, or dissented from them. Now by these anathematisms and excommunications; by the deep censure, and branding with the note of Heresy; by the denial of the name of Catholic, to such as did stubbornly contradict ecumenical definitions: by the known custom of the Pastors, in all ages, and cases of greatest difficulty, (when soever they could with safety meet in Council,) to define sub anathemate, and to oblige all to conformity without further dispute or doubt; (they being the men whom our Saviour hath given to teach his people and establish them in the truth:) by the general obedience of the Symbolical or universal Church, in all times, to the Pastors, so teaching; (manifested in their acceptation of such Decrees, and conformable profession of the faith:) by the esteem which holy Fathers had of Counsels, whereof in Saint Augustine I gave an instance, in the case of S. Cyprian, and, by the Apostles practice, in regard and contemplation of the promise; together with their real interpretation of it: the meaning of those words, The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth; and He gave Pastors and Doctors, that we be not wavering or borne about with every wind of doctrine; is so discovered; and the tradition of assistance and direction, afforded to Counsels ecumenical, in their decrees of faith, so confirmed; that a weaker sight than yours may discern it.  
You may further call to mind, that the Counsels wherein the Controversies betwixt the Protestants and us are defined, be received by the whole Church, and by it universally approved. Wherefore, had any of those you name, told you that an ecumenical Council might mistake, and err; the decrees of faith made in these Counsels, as in that of Trent for example, had still been, according to their judgement, notwithstanding, to be admitted; because the Universal Church, hath received and approved them. And you, opposing them, do oppose, not a Council only, but the Catholic and Universal Church; and the Spirit in her, the Spirit of truth, remaining in, and with her, to teach her all truth.  
That this is the Catholic Church, and not yours, nor the whole company of such as profess themselves Christians as it includes both the Orthodox and Heretics, you see proved and defended 
f Disp. of the Church.  elswere. If your Spirit be disposed to contradict it, bring your Catalogue of men that held your Articles, all: men, purely Orthodox according to the new strain, without any defect or superstruction; whose tenants entirely be 
* 
The Universality of the Church, and the long Communion of the Grecians and other Nations with it, is demonstrated at large by C. Baronius in his Annals: and briefly in the Disputation of the Church pag. 145. 146. 147. & 148.  
By the Church thus Universal, in her flourishing time, the Nestorian and Eutychean Heresies, which made against the fundamental articles of Christianity and the common Creed, were you know, condemned: and such as abbetted them were cut of from Communion, lawfully and oecumenicallie in the Counsels of Ephesus and Chalcedon. Wherefore in the Catalogue which you are to make do not put under the titles of Orthodox or Members of the Catholic Communion, any Nations or People (however great) approving and maintaining either of these Errors. Such as were the Nestorians, Armenians, jacobites, Abassins, and Egyptians or Cophtis; as appears by Photius, Damascen, Euthymius, Nicephorus, Prateolus, Guido, Baronius, Miraeus, Godignus, and others.  
Neither can you challenge them as yours when they were reunited to the Church and See of Rome, as the Grecians, Armenians and others were in the Council of Florence, (Acta Conc. Flor. in Decreto Eugen. Aemilius, Platina; Chalcondas, Gordonus. See also Miraus, Not. Episc. li. 1. c. 18.) but you must find a time when they neither held with us, nor abbetted either of the foresaid Heresies; but were entirely Protestant or Orthodox in your sense. And the Catalogue must represent unto us in all Ages some of these, so many as may challenge from all other Communities the title of the Catholic and Universal Church.  
If you look upon the whole aggregation of Christian Churches that ever were in the world before Luther, you shall find the Society of believers in Communion with the See of Rome to be without all Controversy the greatest and most Universal. And, that Arians, Nestorians, jacobites, Armenians, and others going out of it to subsist by themselves, never could arrive any of them, to that Universality.  
Where you will find or feign your Protestant more Universal Congregation, or of what kind of men or what phantoms rather it doth consist, we shall know when your description of the Spaces Imaginary comes out in print. What is to be observed in the drawing of your Catalogue hath been partly told you in the Disp. lib. 1. c. 1. 2. 3. & 4.   currant there, and justified by you their children: and this continually, ever since the Apostles days; with Pastors, lawfully ordained. Prove that yours was, and that ours was not the Church which hath celebrated Counsels, condemned Heresies, converted Nations, etc. Mean while (and ever, for this task will be never done,) we do securely subscribe to the Decrees of Counsels ecumenical, approved and received generally by that Community, out of which your Father Luther, went: and do not doubt at all, to embosom ourselves in that Church, which, by Successions of Bishops from the See Apostolic, hath, even to the acknowledgement and confession of mankind, obtained the top of Authority; Heretics in vain barking round about, and condemned; partly by the judgement of the very multitude or common people, partly by the gravity of Counsels, and partly by the majesty of miracles. To which Church not to give the prize, it is verily, either extreme impiety, or foolhardy presumption.