THE BAYNES OF AQVISGRANE, The I. P●●● & I. Volume, ENTITLED VARIETY.  
Containing Three Books, in the form of Dialogues, under the Titles following, Viz.  
PROFIT, PLEASURE, HONOUR.  
Furnished with divers things, no less delightful, then beneficial to be known, and observed.  
Related by ROG. BAYNES GENT. a long Exile out of England, not for any temporal respects.  Qui nihil sperat 〈…〉 
〈◊〉 at Augus●● 〈◊〉 Germany. M.DC.XVII   

The Printer to the Reader.  
THIS present Volume, and the rest that are to follow, though they have not come to the Press till now, yet have th●y been written some years ago, in the time of the late Queen Elizabeth.  
QVI NIHIL SPERAT, NIHIL DESPERAT.  printer's or publisher's device   

THE GENERAL poem MADE BY THE RELATOR OF THIS WORK, Unto the first Part thereof, entitled VARIETY, Dedicated in the Names of the Authors themselves, unto the future Posterity of ENGLAND.  
NOT only now, but also for the time to come, some in ENGLAND may be taken to be Learned who are not, and some may neither be Learned, nor yet taken so to be. Again some may be Learned who are not so taken, and some others may be both Learned and taken so to be; whereunto may be added a fift sort of such, as take themselves to be Learned, when indeed they be not. And unto this last sort of Men, for certain reasons (not needful here to be related) this Work is but reservedly dedicated; I mean so far forth only, as they shall vouchsafe to regard it: but principally and directly it is presented unto the first and second sorts of men above mentioned; that is to say, it is directed first unto those who be neither Learned, nor yet taken to be so, to the end they may be able to know somewhat; and next unto those others who be indeed Learned, though they take not themselves so to be; who also may esteem it as presented to them, to the end they may better their supposed Knowledge: For which respects I presume th●● this Work willbe grateful to them both.  
And therefore if any of those others, unto whom it is not directly dedicated should perhaps go about to calumniate the same, or any part thereof; he may with more reason and reputation save that labour: because neither is the Work dedicated unto him, nor yet composed by men of his rank, or degree in Learning, but by certain curious travailers, as the following discourse will more plainly declare, who being indeed Courtiers, make no profession of any other Science but Humanity only: and therefore for a man of his skill to make any competence at all with these, or to control or blemish their Endeavours, this he ought not in reason to do, nor yet permit others to do it. And so much also the less, because in Dialogues it is not to be expected, that all which is written, is to be continuate doctrine, but that some Interlocutions are to enter betwixt; the which being passed over, than the matter of doctrine returneth again.  
This trace hath Count Balthasar Castiglio in his Courtier, and Boetius in his Consolation directly followed; and Plato in his Compositions more than any other. The which Interlocutions though perhaps they may not fall out still to be so pleasing as the doctrine itself; yet so long as they be not unproportionable to the matter which they concern, they may be permitted to pass: because when all is done, he who will have good store of corn, must be content withal to take some chaff. Yet I cannot well deny, but that some motions I have had, to diminish here and there some discourses of the Interlocutors, had I not considered withal, that one thing it is to publish a Book, and another thing to publish but a Pamphlet; and also a Book or Books of such particular titles, as without some amplification made, some of them do render of themselves but small discourse of matter.  
And therefore I have resolved to let the Books pass with all, and the very same speeches, which the Authors themselves, have upon different occasions, interposed: because it will easily be considered, that Argumentations made by word of mouth, cannot so closely be compacted together, as may things more considerately set down by pen; though I hope it will appear withal, that comparably unto other English Works, no want of doctrine will hear be found. All which is done for the instruction of those only, who albeit they do not aspire to be counted Learned, may yet have a desire to know the scope of all Sciences, besides much Morality, & some economy also, which they may find here. So as with a few days reading they may know much, and with the price of one only volume quit the cost of many. To conclude, divers questions no less ple●●●●● then profitable, not handled in these two Volumes (as namely touching Policy, and many other curious matters) are reserved for the other Volumes ensuing; to the end it may be seen in the mean while, how gratefully these first will be accepted.  Qui nihil sperat, nihil desperate.  

THE BAYNES OF AQVISGRANE. The I. Part, and I. Book, ENTITLED PROFIT.  

The Dedication of the Relator, to the Professors in England of THRIFT.  
DIVERS there are amongst the variety of men, who though they desire to have Wealth do not know how to get it. Others there are, who though they know how to get it, have not either the patience, or will to take the pains to do it. And other some also there are, who when they have it either left them by others, or gotten by their own industry, do not know how to keep it. So that the way unto Thrift, is not only to get, or to have Wealth gotten, but also to know how to govern & conserve it: not covetously, above the stint of their convenient need, as divers do; but temperately, proportionatly, and decently: since Thrift ought to be the mean betwixt Liberality and Avarice, like as Liberality is the mean betwixt Avarice and Prodigality; though yet by error or false interpretation, the one of these is sometimes taken for the other. As the covetous Gamester, by his continual losing, either at Dice or Cards, may be thought to be prodigal though he be not: And on the other side the thriving Merchant oppressed at home with children more than he can well provide for, may be taken to be covetous when he is not: Since, according to the old Saying, He who hath a daughter to marry, hath need of money; & he likewise who hath two daughters to marry, hath need of more; but he who hath many daughters to marry, hath need of a great deal. The which to get, some do use public violence, and these are commonly deprived thereof again (either they, or theirs) by the special providence of God: and some others having got their wealth with equity and upright dealing, do prudently conserve and spend it; and these be only they, who may truly be termed Thrifty. Unto which sort there needeth no more to be said, because they have the Laws both of God and Men concurring with them. And therefore unto those other two sorts of Getters before mentioned, this first Book of the first Volume of my Relation, is only intended, who though they pretend to be followers also of Thrift; yet is it no thriving to get & conserve their goods, by such culpable means, as assuredly resteth punishable, as well by divine, as by human justice.  Qui nihil sperat, nihil desperate.  

INTERLOCUTORS. Aquilonius. Favonius. Subsolanus. RELATOR.  
THE Intentions of men being by the diversity of Discourse, and imbecility of nature, subject unto mutation; a difficult thing it is to imagine, and much more to determine, what resolution to make of purposes, and designs premeditated; because no sooner is any one thing in terms to be resolved, but strait there is wont to rise a kind of fear, that some error may be committed therein. Whereupon I have eftsoons said to myself (since I accepted the enterprise of this work in hand) that if I err in any thing, it would seem to be in this, to have taken upon me to set down in writing the words of other men's disputation and speeches, not put together perhaps with such care, nor with that correctednes of style, as things better thought of, might have been. Whereat, though I myself were present; yet was I no more but a behoulder, as an allied Assistant by name unto one of the company, & chief drawn thereto by my own curiosity, and for my private use only to keep in record some remembrance of that which passed amongst them: gathering up so well as my memory might serve me to do, and but one alone to collect all the arguments of three disputers; making still this account with myself, that if the matter fell not out to my liking, nor to be worth my pains taken, than I might keep my loss secret unto myself without any blame at all: and that if it happened to fall out otherwise; then I might possibly get some further recompense of thanks, by imparting the same unto others, such as would be glad to see so many particularities of things, as this work containeth, treated of in their own language. So that now at last the weight of all that cogitation o● mine, is come to depend upon this other point: to wit, Whether my labour may be any whit grateful unto others, or no, if not for the manner of handling (which is but by the way of Conference) yet for the diversity of things here handled? The which I will not undertake to determine, because I will not prejudicate either the Readers, or the work itself: the one in respect of the variety of men's judgements, and the other in respect of my own interest, not to censure that which hath so voluntarily passed through my own hands. And therefore as one well persuaded of the best, I will put these considerations, as it were, in a balance, to counterpoise one another, & leave them to strive as they will amongst themselves, whiles I begin to perform so much of my duty as unto me belongeth, by supplying the office of a true Relator.  
¶ Thou shalt therefore understand, good Reader, that there happened of late to meet together in the ancient City of Aquisgrane, three men of one nation, and of one language, but of different Provinces, & of divers dispositions. The first a dexterous Northern-man, who being the conductor of a certain Gentleman's son of those quarters, and a Politician by profession, was come thither only for stipend and remuneration of his service, whom we will call for the present by the name of AQVILONIUS, according to the title of the Climate towards which he was borne. The second was a far borne Western-man, & by profession a Protestant, but of the civiller sort, come thither only, as travelers be wont to do, for curiosity to see the place, whom for the like respect before alleged, we will call by the name of FAVONIUS. And the last a middle dwelling Estern-man, who being a Catholic exiled, was come thither only by reason of sickness, to take in that place the commodity of the Baynes (more vulgarly called Baths) and him we will call, for the former respect, by the name of SUBSOLANUS. These three persons, being wont, at one of their lodgings, to meet together often, were fallen one day into a more serious debatement then at any time before. Whereupon myself (who was judged in a chamber of the same house) hearing them grow somewhat louder than they were wont to be, resolved to go in unto them: & even as I was entering into the chamber, I heard Aquilonius say these very words.  AQVILONIUS. 
The world being a wonderful machine of variety, of greatness, and of admiration, containeth in it divers sorts of creatures, but all of them conditioned and qualified like unto itself; that is to say, full of interest, and rapine: the birds of the air by flying, the fishes of the water by swimming, and the beasts of the earth by running, to catch and devour whatsoever they can overtake: why then alone should man be blamed, for seeking in like manner to provide for himself, aswell as the rest; unless you would think it convenient continually to strive against kind, as the Giants be said by Cicero to ha●e done, when they strove against the Heavens, the which would be no small infelicity? Or that on the other side it should be good for us by labouring all to be Angels here on earth, to derogate from the celestial spirits their due, and to usurp unto ourselves their blessedness before our time, which I think may be done soon enough, when we arrive unto the place where they be living: in the mean while, in such sort, and with such an intermixture of cogitations and actions, as, not depriving us altogether of the way to Heaven, we may not also lose the fruition of those benefits which the world is still ready to bestow upon us.  FAVONIUS. 
Your manner of speech is somewhat extravagant, but yet to make thereof the most favourable construction, my meaning was not in that which I said a little before to tax the world in such a general sort, as by this your answer it seemeth you understand me to have done: but only to infer upon your own words spoken in the behalf of your mentioned friend, that the world was like to have enough to do, to satisfy the wordliness of such swelling spirits, as he that thought himself to be another Mercurius. And this chief for only having had the hap to uncipher a simple ciphered Letter, and no more: the which by all likelihood, either a solicitous Merchant, or a common Notary might well enough have been able to do, no less than he.  AQVILONIUS. 
Though you make but light account thereof; yet I do attribute much unto the mind of such a man, who being so well persuaded of his own doing, doth redouble thereby the force of all his other sufficiency. The which alone were able to prick him potently forward unto some notable degree of Excellency, in whatsoever profession he should betake himself unto: since the greatest operations hitherto done by any of the most famous men of the world, have for the most part been seen to take their beginning from a good opinion of themselves.  FAVONIUS 
So that, to be a notable well-weaner of himself, and his own doings, you take to be a principal stimulator unto Excellency.  AQVILONIUS. 
I see as yet no contrary reason, why, to alter my opinion therein.  FAVONIUS. 
You put me in remembrance hereby, of a certain Grecian Prince called Clitus, who for having overthrown by sea some three or four little Barks, gloried so much thereof, as he usurped the name of the God of the Waters, & caused himself to be called Neptune.  AQVILONIUS. 
If Amasis the Egyptian had not had in him a great mind, and a greater opinion of himself, & his own doings, than his fortune would seem by birth to have allotted him, he had never risen to be King of Egypt.  FAVONIUS. 
That same art of rising, as I perceive by your words, is a very principal and material point, which greatly occupieth and troubleth your mind.  AQVILONIUS. 
I know but few who either are not for the present, or have not been contented heretofore, to trouble themselves sometimes with such cogitations as these.  FAVONIUS. 
An old Philosopher being asked by such an aspiring wordling, as you have spoken of, what jupiter was doing in heaven? answered: He doth nothing else but make ladders for some to ascend, and some to descend by.  AQVILONIUS. 
And what of this, I pray you?  FAVONIUS. 
His blindness notwithstanding was such, as it rather increased his folly than otherwise, by giving him occasion to perplex himself about the ascending ladder only, but nothing at all about the descending.  AQVILONIUS. 
I expect to hear the end of your intention.  FAVONIUS. 
My meaning herein is this, that such worldly cogitations, be for the most part greater in the imagination, than they happen to prove in effect.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then belike you will resemble a worldly man unto King Ag●●●● his shoemaker, who was wont to make great shoes for little feet.  
¶ Hear Subsolanus interrupting a little their talk, began to say thus.  SUBSOLANUS. 
In these mystical reckonings of yours, me thinks you pay one another like as a soldier of Egypt did, who only with the sound of his money paid a brawling Cook, for the smell of his roast-meat; since what with variety, and what with obscurity you determine of nothing.  AQVILONIUS. 
Indeed, as you say, we Northern borderers be very obscure fellows, for that we call a Hare a Hare, and a Dog a Dog, when we talk together in our own domestical language.  FAVONIUS. 
So that you leave, I perceive, unto me (said Favonius) to answer unto the imputed variety of our talk, as also to the not determining of our things somewhat better. And therefore to follow our proposition a little more strictly than before, I say now: That whereas wordliness transgresseth most of all in excess, if it be on your part amended, & temperately moderated, the rekconing will be easily made up betwixt us.  AQVILONIUS. 
As though in such a man (said Aquilonius) as followeth the world attentively, there might not be tolerated, sometimes, an once of excess in his actions, to get thereby a pound of credit.  FAVONIUS. 
This kind of merchandise I do not well understand.  AQVILONIUS. 
As for example, to commit some sort of excess, either in extending somewhat too far the opinion of his own sufficiency, or by undertaking the execution of some greater enterprise, than he is well able to perform.  FAVONIUS. 
But what if his debility in either of these cases, should be after discovered; would not this be rather a discredit, than a credit unto him?  AQVILONIUS. 
The disered it were like enough to be attributed to his attentive forwardness in the affairs of the world, and the credit, if any hap, would fall unto himself, advancing him thereby not a little.  FAVONIUS. 
So that forwardness in worldly affairs, you take to be a sufficient warrant to excuse any moral error whatsoever.  AQVILONIUS. 
I do so indeed, Favonius. But what if a man by loving the world over well, should utterly lose himself, yet his wordliness will not so easily lose herself in him.  FAVONIUS. 
It seemeth hereby you have not yet considered this other point, that there is not scarcely any thing in the world to be found so dangerous to be dealt withal, as wordliness itself, which as saith an old Doctor of your own School, in his book De Civitate Dei, leadeth men unto things that be vain, hurtful, full of biting thoughts, perturbations, afflictions, fears, foolish delights, discords, quarrels, wars, intrapments, wrath, enmity, falsity, flattery, deceit, stealth, rapine, obstinacy, pride, ambition, envy, slaughters of men, of parents, of friends, of kinsmen, cruelty, malignity, carnalty, boldness, unshamefastness, violence, poverty, fornication, adultery of all sorts, and other filthiness, which are not fit to be spoken of; sacrilege, heresies, perjuries, oppressions, calumniations, prevarications, false testimonies, injust judgements, enforcements, thievery, and such like. And therefore not without cause is it elsewhere said, That the world, with her worldlings, is an assembly of wicked men a slaughter-house of good men, a nourisher of vice, an oppressor of virtue, an enemy of peace, a friend of contention and war, a sweet receptacle of wicked men, a bitter intertayner of good men, a defender of lies, an inventor of novelties, an unquietness of ignorant men, a Martyrdom of evil men, a table of gluttons, an oven of concupissence, a Carybdes and a Scylla of suffocating thoughts: Whereupon it is said further by another, that the world doth hate those that do love it, deceive those that trust it, persecute those that serve it, afflict those that esteem it, dishonour those that honour it, & forget those who do most of all remember it: Whose conversation is full of affliction, whose mirth full of melancholy, whose pleasure full of remorse, whose consolation full of scruple, and whose prosperity is full of fear: Liberal it is in promising, and scarce in performing, producing many evils; and is the occasion of many miserable effects, beginning without any prudence, & ending with bitter repentance. And therefore it is to be beheld a far off, like a monstrous and ravenous beast, lest he that cometh too near it, be devoured by it. For the more familiar any man is with the world, the more perilous it is: using those men worse who do favour it, than those who do abhor it: And to love it, & not to perish in it, is a thing impossible, because making show of one thing it deceiveth men with another, like as jezabel would have deceived jehu, 4. Reg. 9 showing to him her fine plaited head, but sought to hide from him her further abominations: So as many it deceiveth, and many also it utterly blindeth.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then to begin with yourself for one; the world me thinks would seem to have also blinded you, in not letting you see whom you calumniate herein. For who made the world, I pray you, that you will needs inveigh so much against worldlings? and that with such great exageration, as you have used, to impeach the same?  
¶ Hear Subsolanus interposing himself betwixt them again, spoke in this manner.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Not so hotly, Aquilonius: this matter would be talked of betwixt you a little more calmly. And therefore to allay somewhat your earnestness, a convenient occasion of some little pause is proffered. We have now talked standing a good while: let us therefore take these chairs and sit down, for that this Conference I doubt me, may continue long. No ceremonies at all, I pray you. In this lodging of mine, you must be content to be ruled by me. Take you the patience to sit here, and you there: this other more uneasy seat you shall give me leave to take to myself. And let this be our custom still without any more ado, so often as hereafter we shall meet together, admitting also this other allied Assistant of mine, to be present in the hindmost place, to supply all occasions which may happen, & likewise for his own instruction if he think good, to note down any thing that shallbe said, for he hath ink and paper there by him: who to the end he may know, before hand, the scope whereunto our Conference hath to tend, and we also keep amongst ourselves the better account of our own endeavours, it will not perhaps be amiss, if I do here begin (by your good leaves and liking) to set down some arguments fit to be spoken of, during the twenty and seven days, which we have to abide in this City. And because three things do chief present themselves to be here considered, namely the Variety of the World, the Subordination thereof, and the Folly of the same; therefore the first nine days we will treat of Variety; the second nine days of Subordination; and the last nine days of the Folly of the world. And so to begin first with the Variety of the World, because, touching the same, there occur three things to be considered, namely human Nature, the Mind of man, and the Body of man (from the which all Variety doth proceed:) therefore as concerning the first branch, we will the first three days debate of Profit, of Pleasure, and of Honour: the second three days we will debate of Ignorance, of Opinion, and of Science: and the last three days our Conference shall be concerning Education, Travail, and Repose. And now because Aquilonius a little before hath so earnestly asked, who made the world; I myself will take upon me this burden to tell it you, if you will but lend a little patience to hear the same. So it is therefore that about the creation of the world, the Poets first had two fictions, the one, that it was done by Demogorgon, Eternity, Chaos, and Erebus; and the other that it was made by jupiter, Hebe, Prometheus, and Epimetheus, whereof the one is very foolish and fond, and the other ridiculous. Also the Philosophers had divers opinions thereof. Aristotle was of the mind, that the world was ab aeterno, & that consequently it should endure for ever. Democritus held, that it was created of inseparable Atomies: And Plato saith, that the primitive matter thereof was ab aeterno, but that the world itself had a beginning, though it shall have no end. Finally our Devins (who teach the infallible truth, as well concerning this point, as other matters of Faith) hold, that the world itself & the primitive matter thereof were both created, and therefore subject to corruption: all I mean save the Intellectual spirits, and Celestial bodies only, the which according to some Divines are eternised by the excellency of their forms, and also of the matter that God hath given them; yet so, as they are certainly to be transmuted, and purified again, more than as yet they are. But whether the Intellectual, the Celestial, & Terrestrial worlds were all created at once, some diversity of opinions is found even amongst the Devins themselves. For S. Augustine, S Thomas, S. Bonaventure, and all the other Doctors of the Schools do generally hold, that there was of them all, but one creation: and this is taken for the only true opinion. Though otherwise out of the doctrine of some of the ancient Fathers, some think it may be probably gathered; that God created first the Intellectual, and Incorporeal world; that is to say, the Angels or Intelligences. Secondly the Celestial corporal world, containing the Spheres of all the Heavens: and thirdly this Elemental corporal world of ours, and all things therein contained. Which doctrine may more particularly be drawn out of S. Damascen, de orthodoxa fide, lib. 1. cap. 14. then out of any of the rest, where he saith: that the good, and all good, and excelling good, that is to say Almighty God, being Goodness itself, would not suffer his said Goodness to remain sole in himself, without communication thereof to others; and therefore created first the Angelical world, next the Celestial, and lastly the Elemental world. And according to this sense, some also do expound the words of S. john in his Gospel, the first Chapter, where he saith, In mundo erat, meaning thereby the Angelical world: Et mundus per ipsum factus est, thereby understanding the Celestial world, Et mundus eum non cognovit, speaking of this Elemental world of ours; whereof Christ himself also spoke when he said, Regnum meum non est de hoc mundo. And here have I set down these opinions concerning the creation of the world, to the end that the verity of the first may be distinguished from the curiosity of the second. Now then to descend unto the subdivision of this Terrestrial world, and the contents thereof. First it containeth the soul of the same, with all the primitive procreable matters: Secondly it containeth the four Elements of Fire, Air, Water, and Earth, the which are all corruptible, but yet of themselves perfect and unmixed: Thirdly the mixed Meteors of Hail, Snow, and the like, the which are imperfect: Fourthly the more perfect bodies of Metals and Stones, the which are without life: Fiftly the vital bodies of Herbs, Plants, and Trees, the which are without sense: Sixtly the sensible bodies of Fishes, Foules, and Beasts, the which are without Reason. And lastly it containeth the vital, sensible, and also reasonable Creature, to wit Man, whom God hath constituted and appointed to be Lord and Master over all the rest.  AQVILONIUS. 
Not over all; for that the woods and deserts, he hath constituted for the habitation of wild beasts: The pastures and meadows for the feeding of cattle: The air for that habitation of birds: and the seas and waters for the feeding of fishes.  SUBSOLANUS. 
This doth not alter the case at all, for even as in a magnificent Palace, although the Kitchen, Stable, and other like places are more to be inhabited by the servants, then by the Lord and Patron himself; yet the Palace cannot be said to be made for the servants, but for the Patron only. And so we may likewise say of the universal World: That though the wild Beasts, cattle, Birds, and Fishes do inhabit a great part thereof; yet both they themselves, and all the rest is made for the benefit of Man only. And that this to be true, what more manifest argument can you have, then that out of the woods and deserts the strongest Lions, the swiftest Tigers, and the most monstrous Elephants are taken, and tamed by Men, yea led up and down the world under the obedience and government of Man? Out of the pastures and meadows he draweth to his yoke, the most untamed Bull: and unto his bridle the most fierce Horse; and unto his trap the most ravening Bear, or Wolf. Out of the air he bringeth into his snares the wildest sort of birds, and maketh them after so tame, that though he turn them lose abroad they obey his voice, and return again unto his lure. And out of the deepest seas he draweth into his nets innumerable sorts of fishes, yea the Whale himself falleth many times to his Prey, though he be sometimes so bog, as an hundred men may stand hewing with their axes the flesh of his back.  AQVILONIUS. 
Supposing it to be as you say, that man may do great things in the world, yet this would still (me thinks) be understood, not by his contemning the world, but by his more and more addicting himself thereunto; otherwise, either he for ●is part should seem to have been made in vain, or the world itself, touching temporal things, to have been made to small effect.  SUBSOLANUS. 
It is no mar●ell at all, though the world, with her temporal small effects, do herein deceive you, since the same long before, with the only effect of the beauty of the prohibited apple ●n Paradise, deceived our first Mother Eve, before, by the Serpent, the reasons were yet given her to eat thereof, Gen. cap. 3.  AQVILONIUS. 
My meaning is not to reach so high, as unto things done in Paradise, for that the case since then is altered with us not a little; only hereupon I selye me, and no more; That the temporal wealth of the world, to those who live in the same, is not to be contemned.  SUBSOLANUS. 
To come down therefore somewhat lower; the world with her glittering temporal wealth, like as now it deceiveth you; so heretofore, in other kinds, it hath done the like unto others, as it deceived the children of Israel with the Moabites, Num. 25. Samson with Dalida, jud. 16. Acab with 400. false Prophets, 3. Reg. 22. and Naboth with the false promise made by Acab of a better vineyard than his own, 3. Reg. 21. the which while Naboth attended to believe, he was not only deprived of his vineyard, but also of his life. So that, the deceiving snares of the world, be Avarice, Pleasure, Sensuality, Flattery, and Falsehood: whereof, the Avarice corrupteth, the Pleasure infecteth, the Sensuality wasteth, the Flattery swelleth, and the Falsehood betrayeth: according as in the world, it is easy enough so to do; for that the world itself is like a City without a wall, a House without a door, a Ship without a helm, a Pot without a cover, and a Horse without a bridle.  AQVILONIUS. 
None of all this though it cannot be well denied; yet we also ourselves, being more or less of the same condition that the world is, must be contented to take the temporal evil with the good.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Some temporal good, no doubt, there is in the world, though more be the evil, and more frequently appearing then the good itself. And therefore in the world there is not any joy without dolour, any peace without discord, any quietness without fear, any health without infirmity, any bread without labour, nor any pastime without discontentment: and which is worse, each where the wicked do persecute the good, as Cain did Abel, Gen. 4. Ismaël, Isaac, Gen. 21. Esau, jacob, Gen. 27. Saul, David, 1. Reg. 19 and jezabel, Elias, 3. Reg. 19 who again for their labour, so soon as they, or any such other, be waxed rich, the world doth make them poor, and those that be poor, it maketh them rich, like as an Hourglass putteth the sand out of one cruet into another. So as no worldly man, can have in the world any animosity at all, for the instability of his own estate, readier than to come down when he is at the highest: and therefore, all the animosity of the world, remaineth with virtue, whose state and dominion is high and full of generosity, while being as it is in the world, yet it pretendeth nothing of it. For which respect, better it were for a worldly man, to the end he may the more rely upon virtue, to quit himself of his Wealth of his own accord, rather than to be corrupted thereby, or to see it consume away of itself, to his own greater dolour in the end.  AQVILONIUS. 
This counsel of yours is not unlike unto his, who advised his friend, because a tooth of his had bitten his tongue, to pull out the tooth that did it, in revenge of the dolour received thereby; though yet of the two, better a man may live without teeth, than he may live without wealth, which must nourish the teeth, the tongue, and all the rest.  SUBSOLANUS. 
If men were not seen, to become by occasion of their wealth, worse and worse, according ●s Pharaoh, Saul, and jeroboam did, you might have some colour to defend it: but this being so, much better it were, to be unto virtue a poor slave, then to be a rich freeman to the world: since the worldly man, while he followeth attentively his wordliness, doth together with his worldly Pride lose God, together with his worldly Envy lose his neighbour, and together with his worldly Wealth lose himself: making a false show thereby to have in him that virtue which he hath not, and ●herby covering withal those vices which he hath, because he is ashamed of them. And yet for all this, he is not able if he would, to rid himself of his wordliness, until he become so bare again, as when into the world ●e entered first▪ and men, like as if all before had been but a dream, he may well resemble himself unto jonas, who when he fell a sleep, he was covered with a green Yuy, ●nd when he waked, the Yuy being dried up, he was left wide open in the parching sun, ●on. cap. 4. Therefore ●ee in what unstable state, the mere worldly man doth ●ue and wallow in the world, when he thinketh himself ●t the best: though yet still it cannot be denied, but that, as hath been said before, all whatsoever is in the world, either flying in the air, or swimming in the water, or residing upon the earth, God, indeed, hath made them all for man, and all to be under his rule and commandment, as Lord and Master of all.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then if God at leastwise, who made this terrestrial world, have appointed man, as you say, to be Master and Lord of all, what reason is it, that he should not love the same?  SUBSOLANUS. 
Let Favonius answer to this if he will, for that it most of all concerneth himself, I having already performed so much as my promise was.  FAVONIUS. 
I have not (quoth Favonius) directly said as yet, that the World is not to be loved, but that the excess in loving it is to be hated.  AQVILONIUS. 
By this which now you say, you affirm neither the one, nor the other, since whatsoever is indifferent betwixt Love and Hate, cannot properly be said either to be loved, or hated.  FAVONIUS. 
Perhaps in this you deceive yourself, and so much the rather, because a great Divine in his Book of Sentences saith: That the world is both to be loved and hated; meaning belike, that it is to be loved as the work of the Creator, and to be hated as the instrument of temptation unto sin.  AQVILONIUS. 
Your citation of Divinity, knowing as I do of what School you be, moveth me not so much, as the reason itself of your argument; whereby still you would make it a sinful thing, I perceive, for a man to live in the world, like a worldly man; and yet not young men alone, but old men also, do by their actions argue the contrary; while as none do prove more worldly than old men themselves, who you know are the wiser sort of men.  FAVONIUS. 
For all your making so little account of my Divinity, a dangerous point I can tell you, it is, to determine what is sin, and what is not, by this or that man's proceeding only, be he young or old.  AQVILONIUS. 
I speak of multitudes both of the oldest & wisest sort of men, and not of any one particular person alone.  FAVONIUS. 
Let them be as old and as wise as they will, it is neither their age, nor their wit (but some other higher mystery) that can keep them from straying out of the true beaten path of discipline.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then belike old men, and the wiser sort of men, do not know what they do.  FAVONIUS. 
As though it were not possible for an old Wise man, sometimes to play the Fool?  AQVILONIUS. 
If he play the Fool in any thing, it is in this, for not to attend to the World, and to his Profit, so much as he ought to do; considering the divers wants, to the which Age is daily more, and more subject, as Ease, Service, Abundance of clothes, Extraordinary sustenance, and the like, which cannot well be had without some store of money.  FAVONIUS. 
Nay rather the contrary, for that the more he attendeth in his age to wordliness and Profit, the more he may be said to be overseen therein; because having, as then, but a little while to live, the same world which bringeth all, carrieth with it all away again. And therefore so long as old men be moderate in their desires, and cheerful of Nature, their age, albeit it be not accompanied with any great store of Wealth, will not be very noisome unto them: but if they be immoderate & with all melancholy, their age willbe dolorous unto them, notwithstanding they be rich. And not only age, but youth also itself, in that case, would be no less, because it is not the wealth, but the mind which maketh the well contented, either youth or age.  AQVILONIUS. 
Me thinks in this account you rest deceived much, since of the two, the immodest Poor man, who by reason of his boldness can shift for himself well enough, would seem better able to support his age then may the modest Poor man, whose shamefastness may be an occasion to make him endure much want. Besides that, being on the one side afflicted with necessity, and on the other side with fear of his approaching death, he cannot but pass a most miserable age. And therefore I do repute the having of wealth, to be a very necessary thing, not only for all sorts of men, but chief for old men.  FAVONIUS. 
Yet it seemeth that in this point you forget yourself greatly, since old men be of nature so covetous. that when they have wealth, they be loath to spend it: so that it were almost as good not to have it, as to live besides it, and to feel the affliction of poverty, no less than poor men themselves do, or rather more than they, by reason of the care and solicitude that rich men have to keep their wealth from being rob or purloined from them, which the poor old men be void of. So that Poverty and Age would better seem to agree together, then age and wealthiness; & the rather because when the hour of death approacheth, the poorer sort of men have less anxiety to leave their poverty, then have the more wealthy to forsake their riches.  AQVILONIUS. 
You please me with this point very well, and say in effect as I would have you: for that an old man without money, may be likened to a soul without a body. And therefore no marvel if he desire every hour to be rather out of the world then in it: And so much the more, because such a poor and needy old man carrieth for the most part his eyes in his pocket, his ears in his belly, his teeth in his girdle, and his legs in his hands, which is but a miserable state to live in. All which miseries may in an old man that is wealthy be supplied, by having others to read and write for him, without using his spectacles: and also by having others to tell him what a clock it is, without aiming at his dinner time by his hungry stomach: Likewise to have others to cut & carve his meat for him without carrying about him any knife of his own: And lastly by having others to bear him abroad either in his chair or his coach; without using the help either of staff, or crutches: and therefore of the two, young men might better want the wealth of the world, then old men; though yet on the other side a young man without money may in a contrary similitude to that before of an old man, be likened to a body without a soul, wishing rather in that case to have never come into the world, than so to live in it. And therefore for aught I can perceive, it is necessary for youth aswell as for age, to attend also unto wordliness and Profit, some by one kind of trade, & some by another. And he who hath no trade, nor revenue to live by, may usurp the title of a Physician, or else of a Lawyet, for that these men get money by bare words only, if others do but conceive an opinion of them, though they have no skill at all.  FAVONIUS. 
Your counsel were good, and sound if it would work effect in deeds, so well as it seemeth to do in words: but though an unskilful Physician may sometimes get money, by practising with men less skilful than himself; yet how an unskilful Lawyer may be able to do the like, I cannot well perceive: because he may happen many times to contend with other such layers as be skilful indeed.  AQVILONIUS. 
This me thinks might be remedied by two or three ways, according as I have noted, by observing the proceed of our own Country: to wit, either by a firm, and resolute boldness (the which may many times put a sober learned man to silence) or else by bestowing some part of his own fees, to get the favour of the judge: or otherwise by making friendship with his fellow Lawyers, to favour one another underhand, though they make show to be great adversaries.  FAVONIUS. 
Then by means of these helps an unskilful Lawyer, you suppose, might be able well enough to make his Profit by the Law: As if it were no greater a matter, to become a Lawyer, then to become a Clerk of a Market, whose office it is, whensoever he is called upon, to see due measure to be made of Corne.  AQVILONIUS. 
And what more I pray you, hath to do the Lawyer, then to see good measure to be made of Contracts, by alleging that, and no more which his Clients evidences and testimonies have already made known unto him, without further meddling with the Law.  FAVONIUS. 
This seemeth strange unto me, how a Lawyer may so quite himself from knowing the Law, who hath for his profit to excercise the same; when as it is necessary for an ordinary subject, that hath but only to obey the Law, to be able after a sort to know it.  AQVILONIUS. 
It must be (you may suppose) but a very silly knowledge of the Law, that a common Subject may attain unto, and the rather for that the grounds, not only of some old foreign Laws abroad, but also of some newer Laws used in certain parts of England, be so intricate and obscure, that one Law is contrary to another, and yet both of them holden for good. As for example concerning old Laws: The Carthaginians had a Law, that in the time of peace no soldier might steal, because he might live by any manual trade: but in the time of war he might steal, to provide both for his present need, and also for the time to come. The Egyptians had a contrary Law, that in time of war no soldier might steal, for not hindering thereby his Military discipline; but in time of peace he might, because he had not then any pay; yet with this condition, that he should write his name for a Thief in the book of the high Priest, and present unto him also a note of the stolen goods, to the end, that if the owner redemanded them, they might be restored him, excepting only the fourth part, which was to remain to the thief, as also the whole, if it were not redemanded. Were not these Laws, think you, one contrary to another?  FAVONIUS. 
Contrary they were, and so perhaps the people, who made them, were no less contrary of nature then their Laws.  AQVILONIUS. 
What say you then to the Athenians, who had amongst them an old Law. That every man should take two wives, to the end that no man for variety of pleasure should either keep concubines, or practise with other men's wives: whereas on the other side their Neighbours the Lacedæmonians, had a contrary old Law, to wit, That every woman should take two husbands, to the end that one of them should be still at home, to provide for the house, while the other was at the wars. Can there any thing be more contrary than these?  FAVONIUS. 
You must consider, that those Laws were made in time of Gentility, and also by Cities of several jurisdictions, that were emulators in all things one to another.  AQVILONIUS. 
I propound you then another example at home amongst ourselves, That in one Lordship the eldest Son is to be heir, because he is supposed best able to serve his Prince; and in another Lordship the youngest Son is to inherit all, because he is least able to provide for himself: be not these also contrary Laws the one to the other, and yet both of them holden to be good?  FAVONIUS. 
If both these Laws were in use in two distinct lordships holden alike by Knights service, they might import some contrariety as you say: but your latter case, is only for Lands which are holden in Socage Tenure, according to our Law term; and not for all such Lands neither, but for the smallest part thereof, and for that part also permitted only by the particular customs of some manours, and not so commanded by the Law; the which Law may be known, no doubt, well enough unto all, or the most part of those who have to obey it, notwithstanding your alleged contradiction.  AQVILONIUS. 
Let us then consider this other reason, Whether ordinary subjects should be bound so strictly to know the Law, when as that which was Law the last year, may this year be no Law at all, by occasion of some new Statute made against it?  FAVONIUS. 
Then by this account, because the last year there was peace and this year war, the subjects should not be bound to know when it is peace, and when war; not that I will infer hereof, that every common Subject should know the Law, so exactly and particularly as Lawyers themselves, who make their profit of it; but only to know the same superficially and in general: that is to say, partly by Tradition, and partly by natural Reason.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then natural Reason by your own confession is half enough of itself in subjects, to make them to know so much of the Law as is necessary for their vocation.  FAVONIUS. 
You say very well, for so much have I confessed already indeed.  AQVILONIUS. 
But he who doth know any part of the Law by natural Reason, may he not execute by natural Reason so much thereof in his practice as he knoweth?  FAVONIUS. 
I will not greatly deny, but that natural Reason alone may serve well enough the turn to execute all sorts of private justice, the which extendeth itself no further than for one Neighbour to render to another his dew, so far forth as Humanity, and Charity do oblige him thereunto: But for the practice of public justice in Courts of Record, there is required the help of more art, according as hath been said before.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then by this I perceive you will now allot us two sorts of justice, whereof the one hath to proceed from the morality of the mind, and the other from the equity of the Law.  FAVONIUS. 
Not only from the equity of the Law, which consisteth in the Reason thereof; but also from the force of the Law, which consisteth in the authority of the same: the first being to be called the Body, and the second the Soul; and both of them tending together, to teach as well what is good, as to prohibit what is evil; without which two helps (as saith Plutarch, in his Morals) it were hard for us to enjoy the benefits which God hath bestowed upon the world. And therefore not without cause it is said by Plato, in the ninth of his Laws, That men without Law, nihil à feris atrocissimis discreparent.  AQVILONIUS. 
And yet I have heard it said, That those men be better that have no Laws at all, than those that have good Laws, and do not keep them.  FAVONIUS. 
The reason is, because good Laws unkept do in some sort extenuate the ordinary Law of Nature; for that with such as have no written Laws at all, the Law of Nature is seen to be more of force.  AQVILONIUS. 
In all places where I have been the Law of Nature is much extenuated, for that every where I find good Laws enough, but very few of them executed, except against poor men only: whereas the rich by force of their wealth, do escape all penalty; like as the great flies do pass through the Cobwebs, but the little ones, not being able, do rest entrapped.  FAVONIUS. 
But do you take this to be the fault of the Law, or of those who should better execute the same?  AQVILONIUS. 
Of the executors thereof, and not of the Law; for that the Law itself is always good, and profitable, if it be executed accordingly.  FAVONIUS. 
All these things being well considered, then how may your ignorant Lawyer, before mentioned, be able by his Ignorance to make any profit to himself, in the practice and execution of the Law, without knowing the same?  AQVILONIUS. 
His said practice alone, if not in the principal Courts of Record, yet in their inferior Courts of justice, willbe able in a little while to teach him so much knowledge of the Law, as he may make a competent profit of it.  FAVONIUS. 
Then you will have him at the first to sell that unto others, which he hath not himself, until at their charges and also losses, his said ignorant practice may have yielded him both knowledge and profit: which were as much to say, as for the following of his wordliness, to become a public deceiver, and a betrayer of justice.  AQVILONIUS. 
Me thinks you go a little to far in applying those undecent Terms, unto such a civil way of getting money, as is the trade of Lawyers.  FAVONIUS. 
Then what have you to say to the words of Laertius: Quòd damnum potiù●, quàm turpe lucrum ●li●●ndum est?  AQVILONIUS. 
As much as you can be able to say to the words of Iwenall: Lucribonus odor ex re qualibet. Let us set the Hare's head unto the Goose giblets, and so make up the quittance.  FAVONIUS. 
I see by this, you be apt enough inclined to proportion the measure of honesty by the measure of riches, and not the measure of riches by the measure of honesty.  AQVILONIUS. 
I can tell you, that to talk now adays too much of honesty, chief amongst young men who attend unto Profit, is a thing that every where offendeth the stomach; and the rather, for that to shun any kind of commodity, for scrupulousness of honesty, willbe attributed to folly more than to wisdom.  FAVONIUS. 
Do you not know that every commodity bringeth with it her incommodity, and that commonly, according to the Proverb, Ill gotten goods, are ill spent.  AQVILONIUS. 
Let them be spent as ill as they will, while at the leastwise, this I do know well enough, that he who speaketh against Commodity and Profit, speaketh against Industry, against Sodality, yea against justice itself: for that if justice were not commodious and profitable, who would extol her to be the Queen of the World, according as commonly she is reputed every where to be?  
¶ Hear Subsolanus perceiving that Favonius began to make some show of weariness, said unto Aquilinius, somewhat angrily.  SUBSOLANUS. 
O sacred justice, how many be there, that do calumniate thy Name, and how few on the other side, that do seek to defend thee!  AQVILONIUS. 
Aliud ex alio malum: there is now another stone fallen into the well, which is like to disturb all the water. What cause have you (said Aquilonius) to make any such exclamation in favour of justice; when as nothing hath yet been spoken, that may any way sound to her derogation?  SUBSOLANUS. 
As though it were no derogation unto her to be extolled more for the mercenary Commodity that may be made of her, then for her own proper integrity.  AQVILONIUS. 
Hold yourself contented, for I have only made mention of her, comformably unto that her external part, which is most appropriated unto us, and to our particular good, leaving her internal integrity unto herself, as a part of her own Essence.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then belike you take the Essence of justice to be made of many mixtures, since you impute integrity to be one of them.  AQVILONIUS. 
Whether integrity be her whole Essence, or but a part thereof, I will not much stand upon it; since unto me it shall suffice, that she be only void of passion, because the same obscureth the true understanding of Controversies betwixt party and party.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Altogether without passion she cannot well be, for than she should have in her no anger wherewith to punish the wicked, nor yet on the other side, no affectionate love, wherewith to incite her to reward the good.  AQVILONIUS. 
By this it would seem to follow, since you begin to reckon up appetites, that it were requisite also for her to be somewhat suspicious, to the end she may penetrate into the malice of all false measures and meanings.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Your meaning seemeth to be good, but your terms agree not therewith, since the same appetite or passion, which in men of little wit is called Suspicion, may be called in the wiser sort, by the name of Circumspection; the which of itself may suffice unto the doing of justice well enough betwixt party and party; because no judge is bound to proceed beyond that which is produced, except in Criminal Causes only: for that in these, it is requisite, to proceed sometimes by due conjectures; I mean in causes touching life and death, at the least touching the prevention of divers sorts of evils, the which might grow too far, if nothing should be attempted against the contrivers thereof, until the commenced crime might be juridically proved.  AQVILONIUS. 
If all this be true, that in civil causes a judge hath not to proceed any further by his art, then according to the proof produced, and that also in Criminal Causes he may leave, if he will, all art a side, and proceed by conjectures: then as little Law, for the getting of his living may serve unto a judge, as may have served our foresaid practising Lawyer, since natural reason alone, is able still in Criminal Causes to penetrate far enough by conjecture, as also to distinguish the right from the wrong in Civil Causes, when sufficient evidence is given on both sides, and he not to pass any further, then according to the same.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then any man that hath not means to live by, may counterfeit himself for his profit to be of what Trade he will; and so by little and little ascend unto the highest degree of his counterfeit profession.  AQVILONIUS. 
You say very well herein, for such is now the practice of the world. As for example, how many simple Apothecaries have ascended by that means to be formal Physicians? How many petty Schoolmasters have mounted to be preachers in Divinity, as if they had been Doctors of that art? and how many crafty Scribes in under Offices have grown to be esteemed for substantial Lawyers? and also of these, how many have afterwards become to be Stewards unto Noble men of their Lands, and so by sitting there as judges, to render justice betwixt party and party, perhaps with as little Law in their heads, as they had abstinence in their hands, from taking of bribes?  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then a man that hath no skill in the Law at all, may not only for his profit be a practising Lawyer, as you have said, but may now also rise up to be a certain kind of judge, and so to know in that office how to execute justice.  AQVILONIUS. 
Albeit you speak this in derogation of that unskilful judge of mine; yet so long as he with the good liking and satisfaction of others, can know how to make to himself a sufficient commodity of his said profession, what more skill should he need to require?  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that this judge of yours, if he have sufficient skill to sell justice for money, which is a reproachful thing, you think him for all the rest, to be able enough to execute that office. As if to know how to make his own profit, were to know how to execute justice.  AQVILONIUS. 
Though you seem to make the execution of justice so hard a matter, yet I cannot see why such an unlearned judge may not do it very well, only by knowing how to abstain from doing Injustice.  SUBSOLANUS. 
This is a new kind of learning, scarcely heard of before, and therefore not thought of by many.  AQVILONIUS. 
It is not so new as you imagine; for it is the doctrine of Socrates, who said (as Xenophon reporteth) that the very abstaining from doing Injustice, is justice itself.  SUBSOLANUS. 
If this were true, as you say (that to abstain from Injustice, were justice) then to abstain from not committing any foolish Act, should be Prudence; and to abstain from not doing any temerarious enterprise, should be Fortitude; and also to abstain from not eating of poison, should be Temperance. But Virtue itself being otherwise agreed upon by the Philosophers, not to consist at all in the leaving of any evil thing undone, but in the voluntary doing of good things, therefore none of tho●e former abstinences in manner and former as they be related, can be truly reckoned for Virtues. As also again, they cannot yet be Virtues, for another reason; to wit, because whatsoever is equally distant from pain and reward, cannot be either Vice or Virtue; such I mean, as may be either offensive, or helping unto others. For if it merit not to be punished, it is no such criminal Vice as the Law taketh care of; and on the other side, if it merit no reward, it is no such eminent Virtue as is had in any estimation. For where do you find, that any State or City did ever reward any man, because he was a Drunkard? or did ever receive any one to be a Citizen amongst them, because he was a Glutton? or did ever prefer any man to be an Arbitrator in Controversies, because he was a sluggard? But to the end this may yet appear unto you more plainly, I will propound you another example. The famous Aristid● of Athens, a man of great authority but very poor, was sent by the Senators of that City, unto certain their Confederate Islanders, partly to moderate their excess of payments (because they tended to Rebellion) & partly to gather up certain old Tributes. This Aristides having by his wisdom set all things in go●d order amongst them, returned home again, more poor than he went forth, without having benefited himself any thing at all by that office, as many others would have done. Hear I say, if any one should have gone about to have persuaded the Citizens of Athen●, that Aristides did merit to be received home with great Triumph and Honour because in executing the office committed unto his charge, he had not taken, to sustain his poverty any unlawful bribe at all; would not this▪ think you, have been rather laughed at, then granted? Whereas on the other side, if it should have been said unto them, that Aristides did merit to be received home with Triumph and Honour for as much as having wisely moderated the excess of those payments, and reduced down the old tributes unto the ability of the people, who were before oppressed thereby, and that he had so prevented a general revolt of all those miscontented Islanders from the confederation of the Athenians. Herein this second case; I say the fame being thus propounded, the Citizens could hardly have thought him unworthy, either of Triumph, or of some other Honour, because by his just operation in that action he had stood them in great steed, and done them great service; whereas in the same very case as it was propounded before, no such Triumph or Honour could well be granted him, because nothing therein was said to be done by him, worthy of the Honour demanded, but somewhat only left undone, touching his own particular, which merited no public remuneration. And therefore for all these reasons put together, I may now conclude against your former assertion, that the not doing of Injustice, is no work of justice at all, because justice consisteth not in the leaving of any unjust thing undone, but in the skilful executing of that which is just.  AQVILONIUS. 
Notwithstanding all this, if on the other side it may be truly said, as all the moral Writers do affirm, that the first part of Virtue, is to abstain from Vice; why then may it not be said as well, that the first part of justice, is to abstain from Injustice?  SUBSOLANUS. 
These be different manners of speaking, to say, that the first part of justice is to abstain from Injustice, and to say, that to abstain from Injustice, is justice: for though the extremity of one contrary, may be the beginning of another; yet they cannot enter the one into the other. As for Example, the extremity of too much Liberty, may be the beginning of Servitude, but yet not part of Servitude, for that Liberty & Servitude can have no affinity together, no more than justice and Injustice; and therefore though a man, altogether unlearned, may leave sometimes to do Injustice, yet can he hardly be a good justicer, nor know how to do justice, without special skill in the Law: so that the doing of justice is a thing of greater moment, than the leaving of Injustice undone; for that this may be common unto every man, whereas the other is but proper unto lawyers only.  AQVILONIUS. 
So as your meaning is, that justice doth not consist in leaving any unjust thing undone, but in doing of that which is just, not according to every skilful man's conceit thereof, but as the Law itself ordaineth, the which ordaineth nothing but that which justice doth determine and command.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You say well, and according to my meaning: whereupon it would follow, that if to do that which the Law commandeth, should be justice, than the resistance and not doing of that which the Law commandeth, should be Injustice.  AQVILONIUS. 
It may be well enough as you say, though yet your speech be somewhat too strict, and not according to the common understanding thereof.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then you have belike some scruple in your head whether it be so, or no.  AQVILONIUS. 
As touching my scruples, take you no care, for when they be of any moment, they shallbe sufficiently made known unto you.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that without any scruple of yours herein, you will have me to understand that justice & Injustice, may he said to be contraries.  AQVILONIUS. 
According as you have laid them so opposite one to another, they would seem at the leastwise so to be.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then belike they be not so indeed.  AQVILONIUS. 
Since you will needs urge me so far, I must tell you, that as contrary as you seem to make them, yet divers times it happeneth, that one and the same man, may be both just and unjust as well as one and the same man may be a Niggard and Prodigal; the which if they were merely contraries, could not come so to pass.  SUBSOLANUS. 
I do not understand you well, in neither of these cases.  AQVILONIUS. 
Tell me then, I pray you, He that is a Niggard in eating, or in appareling, or in paying his servants wages; may he not be Prodigal either in building, or in furniture of household, or in bestowing upon flatterers?  SUBSOLANUS. 
I do not deny but that so it may be.  AQVILONIUS. 
And soon the other side, he that is just to his friends, may he not be unjust to his enemies, as divers be seen now a days to be?  SUBSOLANUS. 
I will not greatly stand upon it.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then hereby it would appear, that justice and Injustice are not so merely contraries as you suppose them to be.  SUBSOLANUS. 
To the end you may the better know what my conceit is herein, let me ask you ere we go any further this other question; That same worldly Profit of yours, whereof you have spoken so much before, shall we say, that it is contrary to Disprofit, or that it is not?  AQVILONIUS. 
I like so little of Disprofit, and so well of Profit, that I am content to admit them for contraries.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that no Disprofit can be profitable, nor no Profit disprofitable.  AQVILONIUS. 
You say very truly herein.  SUBSOLANUS. 
For, if Disprofit could be profitable, or Profit disprofitable, they should not be contraries.  AQVILONIUS. 
We agree hitherto very well.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And yet it happeneth sometimes, that the giving of ten shillings to a poor friend, that would borrow ten pounds, is a profitable Disprofit: as on the other side, the taking a horse in gift of one that intrudeth thereby to sojourn some while at his house, is a disprofitable Profit.  AQVILONIUS. 
What will you infer hereupon?  SUBSOLANUS. 
I infer, that as Profit and Disprofit are merely contraries, by your own confession, and yet one and the self same thing may be profitable & disprofitable; so also one man may be just and unjust, though justice and Injustice be contraries; which Consequence you seemed to deny before, affirming, that if justice and Injustice were merely contraries, one man could not be both just and injust.  AQVILONIUS. 
Whatsoever I have said before concerning this point according to the vulgar opinion, that which I wished to be debated, and do now affirm, is, that justice, and Injustice may be both of them profitable, and disprofitable. As first, concerning their Disprofit, I say, that as well justice as Injustice may be disprofitable to such judges, or Magistrates, as do run too apparently without any artificial moderation, either unto the one extremity, or the other, whereby they become to be either of them poor: the violent Iniusticer by his infamy, and the violent justicer by his scrupulosity; the one of which causes may be exemplified in the person of Hyperbolus, and the other in the person of the already specified Aristides, both of them Citizens of Athens; the first the iniustest, and the second the justest of the times they lived in, and acknowledged of all men to be such; who died both of them alike, that is to say very poor, and in utter disgrace of the people.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Touching those two men, I shall tell you my mind, when you shall have made a full end of your narration.  AQVILONIUS. 
And now on the other side, I say again unto you, that justice and Injustice may be both of them said to be profitable, specially unto such kind of judges, or Magistrates, as do know how to run a middle course betwixt the extremities of justice and Injustice, whereby secretly, and covertly, making their Profit the one of his justice, the other of his Injustice, they become both of them Rich: the first of which causes may be exemplified in Pericles and Alcibiades in Athens, and the second may be in Lysander, and Agesilaus in Lacedemonia, who knew the way so well to run the middle course betwixt scrupulous justice & defamed Injustice, as all of them died very rich, & not only well esteemed in their Cities, but famous also to the world abroad: which hap befell not in Rome itself, neither to Graccus, nor yet to Cato, notwithstanding they were reputed of all other, the justest men of their time, who, as I have said; not knowing how to run this middle course, died both of them miserably.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You have here alleged these examples in regard of the successes happened, not as they were indeed: but yet you do not penetrate aright into the true causes of the same. For that the City of Athens, in the time of Hyperbolus, had great fame for the integrity of justice practised therein, and therefore no marvel, though such an injust man was there of no reputation; whereas after, in the time of Aristides, Athens was become to be infamous for Injustice according as Rome was also in the time of Graccus and Cato; and therefore as little marvel it is, that such just men as they, could not thrive there amongst them: but when Lysander and Agesilaus lived in Lacedemonia, and Pericles and Alcibiades in Athens, both of these Cities were neither apparently just, nor apparently injust; and therefore for men of their conditions to grow to be great in such Cities, as were already like unto themselves, it is also no great marvel: so as that artificial justice, and Injustice, whereof you have spoken, be not always sure to prosper, or to pass unreprehended, if not also punished; chief if the government under which those men do live, be just and upright of itself: and therefore your reasons before alleged in the behalf of those particulars, be not altogether so firm as you supposed.  AQVILONIUS. 
These be no more but distinctions of ages and places, when & where justice and Injustice may be more or less profitable or disprofitable; but do not therefore disprove, that Injustice sometimes may not be profitable, and justice disprofitable; nor yet on the other side, that Injustice sometimes may not be disprofitable, and justice profitable: I mean at leastwise unto such a judge, or Magistrate, as knoweth how to sell the same for money, which yet it may be, you will also reckon together with the rest to be a kind of Injustice.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You say well, and according as I do reckon it indeed; but yet to be such a kind of Injustice, as is far more tolerable than is the violating of justice, by the doing of Iniquity and Wrong: and therefore taking justice to be commodious in the truest sense, as when it is executed for Equity, and not for gains, in this sort I say, my meaning is not to disprove at all (as you before would seem to suppose) that either justice is profitable, or Injustice disprofitable: but rather the contrary, to wit, that Injustice may be profitable, or justice any way disprofitable, either to the public, or else in particular.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then all the difficulty resteth still (I perceive) touching those two latter points, wherein leaving aside for a while to speak of disprofitable justice, till better place may serve for the same, I cannot for the rest but marvel with myself, how you have not yet perceived out of my former Examples, that Injustice sometimes may be profitable.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You must understand, that I have perceived so much the less for these considerations following; because if Injustice may be profitable, it must be profitable either to the whole State in general (the which I think you will not say) or else to the Executor thereof in particular; and this also but in some reserved sort of proceeding only, since in Causes of public and apparent Iniquity by your own confession, it cannot be so; unto which reserved sort I do now begin to answer you, that though by deceit of understanding, such a cunning corrupted judge may suppose to gain thereby, yet in the end when he cometh to put together his reckoning, and to make up his whole account, he will not find it to be so.  AQVILONIUS. 
What better account will you have him, or can he desire to make for himself herein (I mean according to the present state of the world, and his better means also to be able to withstand the miseries thereof) then to find himself provided thereby of all kind of necessaries belonging to the maintenance of his degree and state, the which some other of his own profession and trade, either for too much scrupulosity, or else for too little dexterity do many times want.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that you would have him (I perceive) at one and the very same time, to serve himself not only of Injustice, but also of justice, using the one fraudulently, and underhand for his secret gain, and exteriorly using the other for his reputation only, and to colour thereby the Iniquity of Injustice.  AQVILONIUS. 
The custom of the world nowadays is come, I can tell you, but unto little better pass.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then all those judges, who will not after this manner be unjust, may be accounted for silly men.  AQVILONIUS. 
For silly men you may be sure, and the rather because, by the art and authority of the said unjust sort of judges, the justice of the just is many times reputed to be counterfeit, and suborned Injustice.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that the injust Magistrate by this means getteth not only wealth, but also reputation to be accounted an administrator of justice, while the just Magistrate liveth poorly, and is with all reputed to be injust by the false suggestion of his fraudulent Adversaries.  AQVILONIUS. 
We see it for the most part to come so to pass.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Whereupon it followeth that to learn to be a cunning Iniusticer, were a very profitable kind of art?  AQVILONIUS. 
Our intention being here to speak of Profit, I cannot allege you any Art that may be more profitable; and that profitable Arts are not to be neglected, is not my thinking alone, but the opinion of Plato (in the eight of his Laws) who saith, Omnes complectuntur artes ex quibus lucrum consequi potest.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Though Plato signified in those words that men be prone to embrace any profitable Art; yet meant he not that all profitable Arts, are to be embraced (but only such as are lawful) and lest of all any Art that tendeth to the corruption of public justice, as it evidently appeareth throughout all his Works, and especially in his Books the Republica, and of his Laws, wherein all his doctrine tendeth to nothing else, but to frame a most happy Common Wealth by the administration of sincere justice: and therefore he specially endeavoureth to make most just and virtuous Magistrates.  AQVILONIUS. 
But what say you then to Cicero? Was he not held for a good Magistrate, and yet he saith in the third of his Offices, Cùm aliqua species utilitatis obiecta est, nos commoveri necesse est. And again: Omnes appetimus utilitatem, & ad eam rapimur.  SUBSOLANUS. 
He saith not this to incite men to the practice of all kind of Profit, but only to show the imbecility of man, desirous of that which impaireth his Condition; & that Profit and Wealth do so, we may gather by the Philosopher, in the third of his Politics, where he saith; Lucrum facit homines detetiores: the which is confirmed by Deip. apud Volat. where he also saith; Nisi lucrum esset, nemo fuisset improbus: and all this the rather, because (as saith another modern Writer) Wealth is a great nourisher of Vice, and Poverty of Virtue. And albeit this were not so, yet the too much desire of Profit is the rather to be bridled, because though the manner of gaining may be never so honest: yet saith Seneca (Epist. 95.) Lucrum sine damno alterius fieri non potest. And so much also the more, when Injustice itself is fraudulently violated for cause of lucre: Name tale turpe lucrum accusatio naturae est, as we read apud Strobaeum.  AQVILONIUS. 
If Nature be accused thereby, it is rather for taking too much delight therein, then for any misliking at all it hath of the same.  SUBSOLANUS. 
If your fraudulent Injustice be not only so good and so profitable a thing as you make it, but with all so agreeable unto Nature itself, as you say, we may then (me thinks) do well to place the same amongst the number of Virtues.  AQVILONIUS. 
If it were not for one exception only, which occurreth to me at this present, it might be a thing (I can tell you) to be thought on, but that indeed the words of Cicero (in the fifth of his Tusculans) are plainly against it, where he saith; Nulla potest esse virtus nisi gratuita.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You have done well to think of that exception yourself, for otherwise you must have been made to remember it out of Pontanus (lib. 2. de Prud.) where he saith; Virtus nihil, quod extra se est, quaerit.  AQVILONIUS. 
It is so much the worse for herself, you may be sure, since thereby she liveth in such continual penury and poverty as she doth.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But yet at the leastwise by you own confession, we may say that justice though she be never so poor, yet hath she always her place amongst the Virtues.  AQVILONIUS. 
We may so.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And that Injustice consequently though she be never so rich, is always to be placed amongst the Vices.  AQVILONIUS. 
By rigour of speech, you may say your pleasure thereof, though on the other side for the Profit that riseth thereby, more gentle and more moderate words might be used of it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then you suppose (I perceive) that for these former respects it were somewhat too rigorous a kind of speaking to say, that Injustice were a vicious thing.  AQVILONIUS. 
I do so indeed, as also because, whereas no man knoweth well how to be able to live in the world, except he have Fortune's favour, Injustice of itself alone, and without any other help at all, can get him the goods of Fortune; the which on the other side, if we will credit him, who commenteth upon the seventh Book of the Politics, the first Chapter, justice of herself is not able so to do.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So as justice and Virtue, you will have them to give place unto Riches and Fortune.  AQVILONIUS. 
It is not my censure alone, for Horace himself (satire 3. lib. 2.) is also of the same opinion, where he saith, That he who is rich, Erit ubique clarus f●rtis, sapiens, etiam Rex, & qui●quid volet.  SUBSOLANUS. 
That is to say, he may seem perhaps to be such, but not so indeed.  AQVILONIUS. 
Do you call it but a seeming so to be, when as in flat terms the said Author saith further in the same place, That unto Riches, Non solùm Virtus, sed etiam Fama, Decus, Divina Humanaque parent.  SUBSOLANUS. 
He speaketh it as a Satirical Poet, only to carp at the abuse of the time, as by these other his words elsewhere we may well discover, In pretio pretium nunc est, and not that he thinketh, it ought to be so indeed, but that the corruption of manners had then brought it so to pass: the which corruption of manners, is wont specially to reign amongst the followers of Riches, as we may gather by Lactantius (de falsa Relig.) where he saith: Voluntas fingendi, & mentiendi est eorum qui opes appetunt, & lucra desiderant; and therefore it were better for you to give ear unto Horace himself, when he speaketh seriously, saying: Quòd pecunia studium fidem, probitatem, ceterasqueve bonas artes subvertit; also unto Sallust, where he saith, Domat omnia Virtus: and again; Quicquid homines arant, navigant, aedificant, Virtuti omnia parent: the which is confirmed likewise by Plautus, who saith, Virtuti Fortuna cedit: so that not Virtue unto Riches, but Riches unto Virtue stoopeth and obaieth. In which respect Cicero saith, Virtute qui praediti sunt, soli sunt divites, because those that be truly virtuous be always firm and stable, and out of all fear of Fortune's checks; quia nihil eripit Fortuna, nisi quod ipsa dedit, as saith Seneca (de tranquil.) Now then of all the moral Virtues, none is either more grateful to God, or necessary and profitable to Man, than justice, without the which no Common Wealth can stand: as also on the other side, no Vice is either more hateful unto God and pernicious unto man, than Injustice, which destroyeth all Common wealths and Civil Societies by the just judgement of God, who, as the holy Scripture testifieth (Deut. 25.) Auersatur omnem Iniustitiam: whereof I will speak more amply in the Conclusion of this days Conference; meaning first to hear all that you mean to say, before I will much press you with Divine Authority, which (as I presume) you do not mean to contradict.  
¶ Hear Favonius supposing that Aquilonius had well near forgotten himself of the latter part of his former partition, began to say thus unto him.  FAVONIUS. 
What have you now I pray you, after this your defence of profitable Injustice, to say further touching that other point of disprofitable justice, whereof you also promised to treat?  AQVILON. 
I have to say more perhaps, than you be aware of, and therefore to descend now into this other branch, I must first tell you, That two ways justice may be disprofitable, the one Private, the other Public: and as for the former, to wit, how justice may sometimes be privately disprofitable, I have already declared it by the example of Aristides, of Graccus, and of Cato: and how also it may be publicly disprofitable, that is to say, by determinate sentence given betwixt party and party, I will now show you by other examples.  FAVONIUS. 
I like it well that you mean to proceed by examples, rather than by argument.  AQVILONIUS. 
To content you then according to your own liking: What Profit I pray you, did rise to the Trojans of the sentence pronounced by Paris, about the distribution of the golden Apple, in the Vale of Ida; when as the ruin of Paris himself, and of his whole Country ensued thereby?  FAVONIUS. 
This in effect was no more but a Poetical fiction, and not any formal sentence of justice; so that it serveth your purpose nothing at all.  AQVILONIUS. 
What say you then to the sentence given in the cause of a Scholar and his Master, who being promised twenty crowns when he had taught him the Art of persuading, sued him for his money. Unto whom the Scholar said: If I can persuade the judge that I own thee nothing, than nothing thou art to have; and if I cannot persuade him so, then nothing also is dew unto thee, because thou hast not taught me the Art of persuading. Whereupon the Master replied; If thou canst persuade the judge, that thou owest me nothing, than art thou to pay me, because thou hast learned of me the Art of persuading: and if thou canst not persuade him so, then so much the more thou art to pay me, for that the sentence will fall on my side. So that whether thou persuade him, or not persuade him, thou art still to pay me. Hear I say in this cause, the sentence being given for the Scholar, what Profit could come unto him thereof: when as by having persuaded the judge to believe him, he discovered to have learned of his Master, so much as he had promised to teach him, and therefore rested still bound to pay him for the same?  FAVONIUS. 
This is rather a Paradox then a sentence, and therefore can avail you as little as that other before.  AQVILONIUS. 
Let us then consider the sentence of Cyrus, while he was but yet young, about the taking from a little boy, a Coat which was too long for him, and from a great boy, another Coat which was too short for him, causing them to be vested with each others coats: which sentence what Profit could it bring unto either of them, when as neither was contented with that exchange?  FAVONIUS. 
This was but a Child's play, and therefore by the Tutor unto Cyrus it was presently revoked, and so serveth you also but unto small effect.  AQVILONIUS. 
I would then know, what you will say unto the sentence of Xerxes' King of Asia, who to save his own life, in a Tempest at sea, was persuaded by his Pilot to cast over board all his chief Gentlemen, and when he came on shore, he ordained a Crown of Gould to be given to the Pilot, for having saved his life, & incontinently after, judged him to be hanged, for having been the cause of the death of so many worthy Gentlemen: whereupon I would know, what Profit grew either to the State, or to the Pilot by this kind of sentence, when as the one lamented still the loss of their Nobility, and the other with his own death, paid the saving of the kings life?  FAVONIUS. 
This was no more but the will and fantasy of a King, and not any formal sentence given by the way of process, and therefore not available.  AQVILONIUS. 
Let us then consider this other sentence, in the cause of a poor Tyler, who falling down from a house broke his leg, and killed another man upon whom he fell; whose Son suing for justice, received this judgement, that he should go up to the top of the same house, and fall upon the Tiler, & kill him if he could, as the Tyler fell upon his Father: of which sentence, what Profit I pray you, ensued either to the one man for breaking of his leg, or unto the other for his Father's death.  FAVONIUS. 
This was but a shift of a cunning judge, to make an end of an impertinent quarrel, with a more impertinent arbitrement, and therefore as little to the purpose, as the rest before.  AQVILONIUS. 
What say you then to the sentence concerning an Inhabitant of one of the old Cities in Greece, who having delivered his Country from a notorious peril, was by a particular Law of theirs to be granted any one petition he would ask, and so he demanding another man's wife, had her; whose first husband having shortly after done such another like service to his Country, demanded his own wife again, wherein was given this sentence; Let the Law take place. If the Law do take place, said the first husband, she is wholly mine, for that I have won her: and if the Law do not take place, than also is she mine, because she was mine before. Whereunto the second husband replied thus: If so the Law take place, she is wholly mine, because the same Law hath already given her me; and if the Law do not take place, then can she not be thine, because thou hast no Law to claim her from me that have received her by the Law. Whereupon by a second sentence she was sequestered from them both, to the great discontentment of the one & the other: therefore tell me now, if you can, what Profit did grow unto any of them, by either of these sentences?  FAVONIUS. 
This is a kind of Riddle rather than a case of Law, and therefore to be rejected with the rest.  AQVILONIUS. 
What say you then to the sentence that was given not many years ago, at home in our own Country, against the Majesty of Mary the late most Memorable Queen of Scotland; was it not a disprofitable thing to the State, to sentence in such sort, such an absolute Princess, as was no way subject to the jurisdiction of those who gave that sentence against her?  FAVONIUS. 
You be now descended indeed into so notorious a case of our own, that may not well be so easily rejected, as have been your other before. Concerning the which, for as much as myself do know certain good and assured particulars, such as may give you some satisfaction, if they might be related, I will not therefore stick to say, and affirm unto you, that hitherto at the least no disprofit hath ensued thereof, neither unto our State, nor us.  AQVILONIUS. 
Do you think that Dishonour and universal foul Imputation to have committed therein such an act of Incongruity as was never yet heard of before, nor will ever be left to be spoken of to the world's end; do you think (I say) that it is no Disprofit unto your State?  FAVONIUS. 
Was she not, I pray you, found culpable of all the contrived crimes that were brought in evidence against her, the which being true, as it cannot well be denied, what cause then have you to cry out so much, as you do, upon the Incongruity of that Sentence given?  AQVILONIUS. 
Can there be any greater Incongruity, then to execute the rigour of the Law upon one who by prerogative is not tryable by the same? For either it must be, that those contrived crimes you speak of, were committed before she came into England, or after; if before, clear it is, that by the Law, and Reason of State her absolute Sovereignty acquitteth her thereof: & if after, then must you show (if you will try her by English Laws) how she came to be deprived of that her Sovereign freedom of birth; the liberty whereof in the cause of a private person (and much more of an absolute Queen) cannot be taken from him, without either prescription, consent, or forfeit: but of any such prescription concerning the Queen's Majesty of Scotland, we see no Record of Consent, no Act, nor any forfeit, neither yet any such crime committed, as might deprive her of her Principality, the which remaining in her still, how could she (who under no Positive Law was borne) be brought to be tried and executed in a foreign Country, by the rigour of any such Law?  FAVONIUS. 
She was a prisoner, and all prisoners be subject to their Laws whose Prisoners they be.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then john & Francis Kings of France, the one prisoner in England, and the other in Spain, might have been brought to the bar of Transgressor's, and tried, by either of those Country Laws, but neither of them were so handled; therefore belike the Congruity of proceeding would not permit it.  FAVONIUS. 
If Congruity, as you said, would not permit it, how happened it then that Charles the first King of Naples, did in like manner put to death by sentence of the Laws of that Kingdom, his prisoner Conradine, who succeeding the Emperor Frederick the second in the Dukedom of Swenia, made also pretence to the Kingdom of Naples?  AQVILONIUS. 
This also was holden for such an Incongruous Act (Cùm nec Par in Parem potestatem habet, nec inferior in Superiorem. Leg. 3. & 4. the arbitr.) as all the world cried out upon the same. And particularly Robert Count of Flanders, Son-in-law to the said Charles, did for the great indignity thereof, run his sword through the Protonotary Robert de Bary, who read the sentence of conradine's death. He also who struck off his head, had presently after by another, his own head strooken off in the same place. And this Act was the more grievously condemned, because the said Charles himself having been taken prisoner before by the Saracens, in the Wars of the holy Land, was by them honourably entertained, and Royally released. Whereupon Peter King of Arragon, in an opprobrious letter of his written about this Act, and sent to the said Charles, saith to him amongst other things: Tu Nerone neronior, & Saracenis crudelior.  FAVONIUS. 
It was only jealousy of State, that made the said Charles more cruel therein, then otherwise perhaps he would have been, because Conradine not long before was come with a potent army to take from him his Kingdom of Naples: and the same reason may also seem to excuse the putting to death of the Queen of Scotland, because she likewise as then made claim to the Crown of England, and Crowns, I can tell you, may comport no Competitors.  AQVILONIUS. 
And yet the foresaid Peter King of Arragon, who by the right of Constance his wife Cosen-german to the beheaded Conradine, having from the said Charles the first King of Naples the Kingdom of Sicilia, and also taken Prisoner the Son of that Charles called Charles the second, who still made claim to Sicilia, did notwithstanding not put him to death, neither in respect of that claim of his, nor yet in revenge of the death of Conradine his cozen, but with Honourable conditions he was after set at liberty by james Son to the said Peter, at the instance of Edward the first King of England: and all this still unto the greater obloquy of the foresaid Incongruity of Charles the first: therefore see now what little cause you had to bring in him for an example to approve the like used in England against the Queen's Majesty of Scotland, when she was not taken Prisoner by any Law of Arms, as these other Princes were, but coming into England of her own accord, yea and invited, was retained there by force: and therefore put the case, that she had conspired against the Queen of England and her State (as she was charged to have done) she did no more than she might lawfully do, to redeem her own unjust vexation, and to procure her liberty whereof she was most unjustly deprived. For which respects her condemnation was, as I have said, most incongruous; and so much the more for that she was a Woman, a Widow, the nearest Ally unto the Crown of England, an invited Guest, an Exile out of her Kingdom, and fled into England for succour; and finally in such a state, that our State could pretend no lawful cause of fear: for that being endurance she could neither attempt any thing of herself, nor yet practise with any others further than the State of England would permit and wink at. And therefore by doing as they did, they derogated from the Laws of Nature, of Charity, of jurisdiction and Majesty, of Parentage, of Hospitality, of Protection, and finally from the Law of Nations, and consequently from humane Intelligence and reason. And thus much concerning the Incongruity of the fact itself, together with the disprofit of that sentence given; not only in respect of the Universal obliquy risen thereby, but also of the future harms which by occasion of that evil example left in memory, may happen to grow hereafter unto some Prince of England in the like case.  
¶ Hear Subsolanus interrupting their further talk began to say unto Aquilonius.  SUBSOLANUS. 
It may suffice herein that we be better content to admit your example of disprofitable justice, than your proofs of profitable Injustice, though there be place enough left of exception to be made unto the one, as well as to the other, were it not that other matters do yet occur to be also spoken of: and therefore having hitherto treated of wordliness and Profit, in old men, in young men, in Lawyers, in judges, and in other Magistrates, some by overweening of themselves, some by excess of forwardness, some by ignorance some by skill, some by Injustice, some by justice; me thinks it were now time, that we should begin to determine what Profit is, and how many sorts of Profit there may be said to be.  AQVILONIUS. 
Take you then the care thereof upon yourself to do it, & for the rest we be already agreed.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not then do well to say, That Profit is a thing which is either desired for itself, or else for some other thing to follow thereby?  AQVILONIUS. 
Me thinks not, because this would seem to have relation rather unto the utility rising from the thing itself, then to the gain to be made thereof, by any Industry annexed.  SUBSOLANUS. 
We may then perhaps do better to say, That Profit is an Act which may be reputed to consist in buying good cheap, and in selling dear.  AQVILONIUS. 
This on the other side would seem to have relation altogether to the gain which is to be made of things, and not at all unto the Utility rising of the thing itself.  SUBSOLANUS 
It may be, that then this other will content you best, to say, That Profit is no more but a certain kind of skill, how to turn the use of all things unto advantage, unto more advantage, and unto most advantage.  AQVILONIUS. 
It willbe hard, I can tell you, unto a word of so divers relations to make any one description, that may hit just with them all; and therefore without searching any further, we will admit this last together with the former.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that hereby already we may begin (me thinks) to discover that of Profit there be two sorts, the one called Utility, and the other Gain.  AQVILONIUS. 
We may so.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But may we not likewise say, that of Utility there be three sorts; one rising of things, another of habits, and the third of men?  AQVILONIUS. 
And this also.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Utility rising of things either senseless, vegetative or sensitive, may we not say it to be double, to wit either of such things as be not desired for themselves, but for some other Utility that is to rise of them (as when a man takes a loathsome medicine to recover his health thereby:) or else of such other things as be desired both for themselves, and also for some other Utility that is to grow of them, as when a man taketh a delectable medicine both because it pleaseth his taste, and is also profitable for his health?  AQVILONIUS. 
This also doth content me?  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Utility rising of habits, may we not say it also to be double, to wit, either Speculative (as the Utility that riseth of knowledge (be it Natural, Divine, or Mathematical) or else practical, as the Utility to rise of civil, domestical, or political skill?  AQVILONIUS 
This may also be admitted.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And the Utility rising of men, may we not say it to be either fatal (but yet accompanied with voluntary se●king, as the favour of Princes, marriage, friendship, and the like:) or Natural, as the Son to inherit unto his Father, and the Brother to his Brother, or the Nephew to his Uncle; or Moral, as when one receiveth utility of another, so far as either decency or neighbourhood doth require: or Legal, as when one man receiveth utility of another, so far as the Law doth bind him thereunto, and no more, as to keep the peace, to render his due, and the like: or else Spiritual, as when one receiveth a benefit of another, not corporally, but for the benefit of his soul, as the Parishioner by his Curate, who also on the other side may receive Tithes of his Parishioners for his Service in the Church.  AQVILONIUS. 
All this may be also admitted.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So now to speak of that second sort of Profit which is called Gain may we not consequently say, that of Gaining there be likewise three sorts; one to be made by Chance, another to be made by Luck; and the third to be made by Industry?  AQVILONIUS. 
It doth not mislike me.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Gain to be made by Chance, which a man doth unwittingly meet withal, may we not say it to be triple, to wit, either by the way of finding (as a man to light upon a lost purse) or else by the way of encountering (as a man to meet in an Inn with a merchant who is contented to bear his charges out of Italy into England) or otherwise by the way of escaping (as a man to be delivered out of the hands of thiefs by the coming that way of other passengers?)  AQVILONIUS. 
All as yet goeth well.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Gain to be made by Luck, which a man doth get wittingly, may we not say it to be also triple; namely either by the way of gaming (as to win a great sum of money, either at Dice or Cards) or else by the way of venturing (as to become rich by far journeys at sea) or otherwise by the way of experimenting (as to multiply wealth, by making of things, either commodious extractions, or commodious compositions?)  AQVILONIUS. 
It may be allowed well enough.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And now as touching the gain to be made of Industry, may we not say it to be double; to wit, either by way of faction, and force, or else by way of action, and agility?  AQVILONIUS 
I see no cause to the contrary.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The gain to be made be Faction and force, may we not say it to be quadruple, to wit, either unartificially (as a man to get his living by portage, or by any other mere labour of the body) or else artificially (as by fishing, by fowling, and the like) or otherwise husbandly (to wit by tilling, by grafing, or by breeding of cattle) or else mechanically or manually (as by being a Carpenter, a Shwoomaker, or a Tailor?)  AQVILONIUS. 
Nothing of this may be well denied.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And so likewise the gain to be made by Action and Agility, may we not say it to be double, namely either Mercantile or else Mercenary?  AQVILONIUS. 
Me thinks we may say so.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Mercantile gain, may we not say it to be quadruple, namely either by buying or selling, or else by commutation of one thing for another of divers kinds, or otherwise by usury, or else by exchange of money for money?  AQVILONIUS. 
You say herein very well.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Mercantile gain to be made by the way of buying and selling, may we not say it to be also quardruple, to wit, either of Lands or possessions, or else by cattle and other victuals, or otherwise of furniture of household or building, or else of any other wares whatsoever, either in Great or by Retail?  AQVILONIUS. 
I admit it to be so.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Mercantile gain to be made by the way of commutation of one thing for another of divers kinds, may we not say, that this sort of getting, is less in use now adays, since money hath been invented, then heretofore it hath been, when jacob (as we read in Ios●e, cap. 24) emit à filijs Emor Patris, Sichem agrum pro centum novellis onibus, & fuit in possessionem filiorum joseph?  AQVILONIUS. 
This as you say, is now out of use.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Mercantile gain to be made by the way of usury, may we not say it to be disallowed first by the discipline of the Philosophers, according as we read in Aristotle (Polit. lib. 1. cap. 6.) next by the Law of Moses, as we read in Leuit. (cap. 25.) Pecuniam tuam non dabis ad usuram: and lastly by the Law of our Saviour Christ, who saith (Luc. cap. 6.) Si mutuum dederitis his à quibus speratis accipere, quae gratia est vobis? nam & peccatores peccatoribus foenerantur ut recipiant aequalia.  AQVILONIUS. 
This cannot be denied.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Mercantile gain to be made by the way of exchange, is in some cases allowable (as when the Gain is no more than the difference of the value of the money in the place whereunto it is exchanged, for the value of the money in the place where the contract is made, adding only thereunto all ordinary charges duly occurring:) & in some other cases it is disallowed, as when the G●ine is greater than the said difference of the value of the money, and the ordinary charges occurring; and this also either by occasion of the fraud of the giver of the bill of exchange, or by the necessity of the taker.  AQVILONIUS. 
There can be nothing more true.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Now to come on the other side to the Mercenary kind of gaining, may we not likewise say it to be double, namely either lawful, or else unlawful?  AQVILONIUS. 
Together with the rest, let this be also admitted.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The lawful Mercenary Gain is also double, to wit, either by the way of war, or else by the way of peace.  AQVILONIUS. 
I find nothing to be said against it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The Mercenary lawful Gain to be made by the way of war, may we not say it to be likewise double, namely either by Sea (as by receiving the stipend of a Pilot, of a mariner, of a Gunner, and such like: or else by Land, as by receiving the stipend of a Captain, of a soldier, of an engineer or such other?  AQVILONIUS. 
As you do say, so do I affirm it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The lawful Mercenary Gain to be made by the way of peace, may we not say it to be also double; to wit, either servile (as by receiving the stipend of a domestical Officer or of an ordinary servant;) or else more fr●e, as by receiving the stipend of a teacher of any Art, the stipend of a Lawyer, or the stipend of a Physician: the which nevertheless being better considered, may be said to be improper kinds of gaining, according to the opinion of the Philosopher (in the first of his Politics, the sixth Chapter) because the proper gain which cometh of teaching is the Art learned, & the proper gain of the Law is the counsel given, and of Physic, the health received; and so likewise in other things that be more Mechanical, as the proper gain to be made of a pair of shoes, is the saving of the feet by the wearing thereof; and the price for which they be sold is the improper gain, as rising secondarily thereof, and not princially.  AQVILONIUS. 
This subtle consideration never entered into my head before, albeit I confess that it carrieth with it sufficient show of reason.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And now to come on the other side, unto unlawful Mercenary ways of gaining, may we not likewise say them to be double, namely either secretly dishonest, or apparently dishonest?  AQVILONIUS. 
I have looked for this all this while.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Of which two points, because they may grow to be more copious than the rest before have been, it shallbe good that we speak of them a part by themselves.  AQVILONIUS. 
You may give unto them what scope you will, for I find myself well enough disposed to say my part therein, as well as you.  SUBSOLANUS. 
To begin then with the secret dishonest Mercenary Gain, or to say better, Honest in appearance, though not indeed; may we not reduce it unto these heads, namely either unto cloaked Injustice, or unto dissembled Carnality, or unto smooth flattery, or else unto cunning Cheating?  AQVILONIUS. 
Me thinks you have put in enough, as being afraid, belike, to leave out any thing.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Of that secret dishonest Gain which is wont to rise by cloaked Injustice, we shall not need I suppose to say here any more than hath been spoken thereof already.  AQVILONIUS 
I am also of the same mind.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that to speak in order next of that other secret dishonest Gain, which is wont to rise by dissembled Carnality, may we not say it to be double, to wit either when some one is but a mediator for another, or else a solicitor for himself?  AQVILONIUS. 
The firs● of these two, may be well enough omitted, as not being worthy to be treated of here.  SUBSOLANUS. 
As touching then the second, may we not say it to be three ways miserable? One in respect of the filthiness thereof, another for the pleasure taken therein, and the third for the Gain itself, whereby this Carnal man is tied the rather thereunto: whereas others, such as pursue the like folly with their own expenses and loss, do thereby deliver themselves the sooner from their noisome and loathsome servitude; and therefore we see commonly that a Mercenary Fornicator who followeth that filthy trade, either for supplying of his own need, or else for desire of superfluity, cannot find in his heart to leave off, till either his carnality do first leave him, or he leave himself for altogether, with evident danger of eternal perdition. In whom is verified the saying of the Prophet Osee, speaking of fornicators (cap. 5.) They (saith he) will not have in their thoughts any will to return to God again. Therefore such Carnal men, whether they be mercenary or no (I mean, whethersoever they seek their pleasure, or their gain) may do well ever to remember not only the prohibition thereof, but also the punishment ordained for it in Holy Scriptures, as in Leuit. 19 Si moechatus quis fuerit cum uxore alterius, & adulterium perpetrauerit cum uxore proximi sui, morte moriantur & moe●hus & adultera. And again (Deut. 13.) Non erit meretrix de filiabus Israel, nec scortator de filijs Israel; which is also confirmed by the Law of Grace, with a precept of greater purity and perfection (Matth. 5.) Audistis quia dictum est antiquis, Non moechaberis; ego autem dico vobis, quia omnis qui viderit mulierem ad concupiscendam eam, iam moechatus est in cord suo. And again (Heb 13.) Fornicatores enim & adulteros judicabit Deus. And the rather also because their vice and sin, as saith S. Ambrose (lib. 1. de Abraham) etiam feris ac barbaris detestabile est.  AQVILONIUS. 
For so much hereof as concerneth the mercenary stipend of fornicators or adulterers, this which you have said, doth indeed pertain to me, who am a defender of Profit: but for the rest (I mean the delights taken therein) your discourse toucheth Favonius, more than me, for that he is a special favourer of Pleasure.  
¶ Hear Favonius, though he did not repine to be thought a friend to Pleasure in general, yet taking it to be some reproach unto himself, to be interlaced in the reckoning of so dishonest a cause, intruded himself into the pursuit of the other branches of Subsolanus last partion, saying some what angrily to Aquilonius.  FAVONIUS. 
Whether I be a favourer of Pleasure or no, I take you to be one of those, who for Mercenary Gain would make no scruple at all to calumniate one that is absent, to the smooth flattering of another that is present.  AQVILONIUS. 
As touching the calumniation we be not yet come so far forward, though perhaps we may be ere it be long; but for the flattery whensoever it procureth any gain, I am no less than you have supposed me to be, and the rather for that in no place where I have traveled, I have ever hitherto found the heart of any man so hard, that was not greatly to be mollified with the hearing of his own praise. For that as verity causeth hatred, so adulation doth engender love, according to the old Poverbe: Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit.  FAVONIUS. 
That is with those who love themselves too much, whereby they think they be not flattered but duly commended, though perhaps in truth they little deserve it: whereas such others as know themselves aright, albeit they may be naturally desirous to hear their own praise; yet will they be wary not to suffer themselves to be scorned, or mocked with false adulation, like as was Aesop's Crow, which by the flattery of the Fox, let fall the meat she held in her mouth.  AQVILONIUS. 
Herein consisteth the praise of this Art, to be able to work such miracles.  FAVONIUS. 
Then you account flattery I perceive to be an Art.  AQVILONIUS. 
Not only an Art, but an Art of Arts, which goeth beyond all other Artes.  FAVONIUS. 
Let me ask you then this question, Whether he who flatters, doth use to speak as he thinketh?  AQVILONIUS. 
Such a one as doth so, may be rather a true praiser, than a flatterer.  FAVONIUS. 
So that a flatterer speaketh one thing and thinketh another.  AQVILONIUS. 
If he should do otherwise, it were then no Art at all, but a silly plain kind of dealing.  FAVONIUS. 
Then he who will play the Flatterer cunningly; must first learn to be a false dissembler.  AQVILONIUS. 
If you have no worse to say against him than that, he will do well enough.  FAVONIUS. 
So as you take it, that to dissemble is a very tolerable thing.  AQVILONIUS. 
I make no question of it.  FAVONIUS. 
Then I pray yo● tell me, Whether he who uttereth with his tongue that which his inward dissimulation hath contrived, may not be called a Liar?  AQVILONIUS. 
I am sorry that word hath escaped your mouth, because albeit he may be so called, yet doth he lie in a most pleasing manner, and nothing at all maliciously.  FAVONIUS. 
But do you mean that the same pleasing Lie, should be made for the benefit of the party flattered, or else of the good of the Fatterer himself?  AQVILONIUS. 
You might think the Flatterer a fool to do it, if it were not principally for his own benefit.  FAVONIUS. 
Then his own self-love is the principal cause of his flattery, thereby to make his advantage of the party flattered.  AQVILONIUS. 
For whose love else may he have more cause to do it?  FAVONIUS. 
In so much, as by his flattering he not only deceiveth treacherously the party flattered, but seeketh to infect him also with the same vice of self-love, wherewith he himself is already infected: and this to the end to be able so to lead him up and down by the Nose, as we see Bearewardes, with a ring to lead their Bears; and therefore we may well say, that as flattery beginneth with dissimulation and lying, so also it endeth with treachery and deceit.  AQVILONIUS. 
I will not deny it, neither do I mislike it, if it be for his profit and gain.  FAVONIUS. 
Belike then (to come now unto the last part of Subsolanus his former division) you will not stick to admit also this Flatterer of ours, to play the cunning Cheater for his greater gain.  AQVILONIUS. 
Such kind of cunning cheating it may be, as I will not stick to admit it in him indeed.  FAVONIUS. 
As for example, What say you unto one, who having a Gould Chain, caused a counterfeit one to be made very like it, and offered the better chain to be sold to a Goldsmith, upon whom (after he had touched, and weighed it, yea and bargained also for it) he dexterously shifted the counterfeit Chain instead of the other?  AQVILONIUS. 
I do not directly allow of this, because he was so wealthy as to have a gold chain to sell, and therefore was not yet brought unto such necessity, as to be permitted the acting of such a fraud.  FAVONIUS. 
Let me then propound unto you this other case, of one who pretended in the time of Lent to have lost a Budget with a hundred Crowns of money in it, and of another his companion, who by accord betwixt them, was to feign to have found it, so he who lost it having commended the matter to be inquired of in the Pulpit by the public Preacher of the Town, the other discovered to him in secret the finding thereof, but yet, with such a protestation of his own poverty, as the Preacher for the pity he took of so conscionable a man, got him by collection, that Lent, little less than an hundred Crowns, the which sum he, and his Companion divided betwixt them?  AQVILONIUS. 
Of the invention itself I allow well enough, but not of the base kind of begging.  FAVONIUS. 
What say you then by one, who binding himself by obligation to repay a borrowed sum of money, cast upon the same obligation such a dust, as eat out all the letters, & so shifted of the payment by that kind of fraud?  AQVILONIUS. 
This invention I like not at all, because another may use it against me that hath but once heard of it, as well as I against him.  FAVONIUS. 
Well then, I will propound unto you yet this other, of one who taking with him his Neighbour, did hide under the ground an hundred Crowns, which money his neighbour having need of, conveyed secretly from thence, leaving in the place a bag of stones?  AQVILONIUS. 
It may be he had an intention to use the money a while, and to return it to the same place again.  FAVONIUS. 
He returned it indeed, though he had no such intention when he took it: for the owner thereof having miss it, and suspecting that his neighbour had taken it, told him that the day following he would hide another hundred Crowns in the same place; whereupon his neighbour thinking to get the same also, carried back the first hundred Crowns, and thereby lost the same.  AQVILONIUS. 
The more I reflect on the matter, the more I disallow it, because he betrayed the confidence which was reposed in him, without any constraint of necessity.  FAVONIUS. 
What say you then to two companions, who carried a hundred Crowns to a rich old Usurer to keep, taking an obligation of him, that he should not deliver it unto either of them, unless they came both together for it: after which it passed not long but that one of them, by the consent of his fellow put on a suit of mourning apparel, and pretending to the Usurer that his companion was dead, got the hundred Crowns out of his hands: and shortly after, the other appearing, he obtained sentence against the Usurer by virtue of his said obligation, for another hundred Crowns.  AQVILONIUS. 
To have served an old Usurer such a trick, it misliketh me nothing at all.  FAVONIUS. 
But yet the Usurer bethinking him better of the matter, caused the sentence to be revoked again by alleging to the judge the words of his obligation, that he was not bound to repay the money, unless both of them together came for it, wherewith the suit ended, for such reason as you may conjecture.  AQVILONIUS. 
I am sorry it took no better effect, for that the shift (if it had been in a time of necessity) was both good and cleanly.  FAVONIUS. 
But what do you say the while unto the other sort of cunning Cheatinges, which be commonly used at all kinds of gaming: I mean either in the act itself, or the circumstances, as by Charms, Falsifications, Butty-playing, & the like?  AQVILONIUS. 
As though unto all kind of gaming there hath not always been annexed a certain advantageous liberty of playing, which you make so much the worse, by comprising it under the title of cunning Cheating: for though true it be, that it hath in it some cunning, yet it is too Courtly a practice, to be called Cheating.  
¶ Hear Subsolanus being desirous to return again unto his unfinished distribution, began to say unto Aquilonius.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Having treated hitherto sufficiently of that kind of unlawful Mercenary Gain, which is but secretly dishonest; there resteth yet to speak of that other part which is dishonest more apparently, the which we may reduce unto these eight heads following; to wit, unto public proceed, which be either fraudulent, or violent, or disloyal, or reproachful, or cruel, or inhuman, or scurrilous, or injust.  AQVILONIUS. 
A fair rabblement of memorable particularities, and well picked out.  SUBSOLANUS. 
That public dishonest Mercenary gain, which is wont to rise of public fraud, may we not say it to be either by deceit of words, and that either with oaths, or without oaths, or else by fraudulent deceit in actions, as for example by the way of buying or selling?  AQVILONIUS. 
Such proceed as these be seen indeed sometimes to occur.  SUBSOLANUS. 
That other dishonest Mercenary gain which is to be gotten by any public violence, may we not say it to be either, when it is done under the colour of sport, or else when it is done in plain earnest, as to rob on the high way, to break into houses, and the like?  AQVILONIUS. 
It must be a great & urgent necessity, that should drive men unto these extremities.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The third dishonest Mercenary gain which is wont to rise of public disloyalty, may we not say it to be either by way of treachery, or else of treason?  AQVILONIUS. 
Such things no doubt, be adventured upon sometimes for desire of Profit.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The fourth dishonest Mercenary gain which is to be gotten with the blot of public reproach, may we not say it to be either with shame of body, whereof there want not examples, or else with shame of mind; as to bear false witness, and the like?  AQVILONIUS. 
All is according as it is taken.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The fifth dishonest Mercenary gain which is wont to rise of some public cruelty, may we not say it to be either by the way of slashing (whereof the marks are rife enough eachwhere to be seen) or else by the way of maiming men in their limbs?  AQVILONIUS. 
You will scarce leave place anon for any disorder at all to be any where committed.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The sixth dishonest Mercenary gain which is to be gotten by any public. Inhumanity, may we not say it to be either by the way of infaming men, or else by doing them some other discourtesy?  AQVILONIUS. 
A very narrow searcher into matters you show yourself to be.  SUBSOLANUS. 
The seventh dishonest Mercenary gain, which is wont to rise of public Scurrility, may we not say it to be either by the way of unclean speaking, or else by the way of more impudent jesting?  AQVILONIUS. 
Now me thinks you stoop very low, to take exception to such ordinary imperfections.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And lastly the eight dishonest Mercenary gain, which is to be gotten by public Injustice, may we not say it to be, either public betwixt party and party, or else public by the way of office?  AQVILONIUS. 
By hemning in things thus together after this manner, you may say what you will.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Now than it seemeth that it is already high time to determine with all the old Moralists, that nothing can be gainful which is not just and honest, whereof the reason shall evidently appear hereafter, especially in the end of this days Conference, when I shall consider of the Profit, or Disprofit that the Soul reapeth by fraudulent gain; and therefore in the mean time, relying upon the known, and excellent Axiom of Cicero in his Offices (to wit, Nihil utile quod non sit honestum) I affirm, that no Gain which is fraudulent, can be truly profitable, as to sell Land which is litigious to one that knoweth it not, which is an act that repugneth with justice, according as doth all other fraudulent buying & selling, for the which Claudius was taxed amongst the Romans, about a house which he sold to Calphurnius.  AQVILONIUS. 
If we measure justice still so strictly, we shall make a fair hand ere long.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not also say, that no Gain which is gotten with furious violence can be truly profitable: As to extort any thing by force, under the colour of sport or earnest, according as those good fellows be wont to do, who purchase their revenues by the high ways; for which kind of faults were infamous amongst the Romans, both Bargulus of Illyria, and Viriatus of Portugal?  AQVILONIUS. 
You need not to have sought so far for examples, since our own Country doth yield us enough of them.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not likewise say, that no kind of Gain which groweth of disloyalty, can be truly profitable: As to betray any other for his own preferment; as Marius the Roman betrayed Metellus to get the Consulship from him?  AQVILONIUS. 
It may be, that at that time, there were as many in Rome, that did commend him, as discommend him for it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not further say, that no Gain which is gotten with reproach or shame can be truly profitable: As to falsify Deeds, and such like, nor yet to be consenting unto any such acts; for the which were taxed the two great Romans M. Crassus, and Q. Horiensius to have favoured for their own gain, the falsified Testament of L. Minutius brought them out of Greece?  AQVILONIUS. 
To bear any blame with such kind of personages as these, would rather seem to be a reputation then a reproach.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not say withal, that no Gain which is polluted with cruelty can be truly profitable: as to be consenting to the shedding of blood, or to the maiming of any man; as the Athenians were taxed for cutting off the thumbs of the Agenetis, lest they should be offensive to their City, by rowing in their own Galleys?  AQVILONIUS 
As I remember, some one of the Kings of France, had designed to do the like unto all such English prisoners as he should happen to take in the wars, to hinder thereby their Archery.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not say moreover, that no Gain which is gotten with Inhumanity can be truly profitable; as to defame any man by word or writing, or to use any other kind of discourtesy, as in Rome first Petronius, and after him Rapius were generally reproved for their inhuman prohibiting of strangers from their Cities, except such as would compound with them for their Licences?  AQVILONIUS. 
To make good this, I could the sooner condescend, for somewhat I have suffered myself in that kind.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not say as yet, that no Gain which is gotten by scurrility can be truly profitable, or else by undecent jesting; for which vices was infamous amongst the Grecians Aristippus, and amongst the Romans, Sarmentus, as also Texius?  AQVILONIUS. 
Of all the rest these kind of Companions do least content me.  SUBSOLANUS. 
May we not say in like manner, that no Gain which is gotten with public Injustice, can be truly profitable, whether so it be betwixt party and party, or else by the way of office; in which kind be condemned the Athenians for their unjust banishing their justest sort of Citizens?  AQVILONIUS. 
As touching the Injustice of Officers & Magistrates there hath enough been said already, and for that other Injustice betwixt party & party, we have yet time enough to speak thereof.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then you will make a difference, I perceive, betwixt the Injustice of Magistrates, and the Injustice of private men; as if private men were privileged herein more than Magistrates?  AQVILONIUS. 
You say very well, for so indeed they seem to be, by reason of the common use and custom amongst men, which maketh private men's Injustice, frauds, and deceits in private matters to be either generally approved, or at least less condemned, than the Injustice of public Magistrates in public affairs; and therefore according to the common practice of the world, to what end doth any man set up a trade, but to exercise Injustice? or buy any pelting office, but to gain his living by Injustice? or fetch commodities from foreign Countries, but with subtle accounts to deceive others by Injustice; since seldom times it is seen, that any of these do rise from little unto much, without having first committed many & many Injustices?  SUBSOLANUS. 
Whereupon it would follow according to your opinion, that to learn also to do Injustice in this sort, were a profitable thing.  AQVILONIUS. 
A profitable thing, you may be sure.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But may we likewise say it is honest?  AQVILONIUS. 
Unto him at leastwise (as hath been said) that can do it covertly, by knowing very well with what counterfeit holiness towards God, and what feigned sincerity towards the world, to get not only wealth by doing such Injustice, but also the fame and reputation to be the honestest man in his Parish.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then so much the more as these kind of men be injust, so much the more they come to be exalted.  AQVILONIUS. 
If it were not so, how could so many poor beginners rise daily, as we see, to be Magistrates in the Cities where they dwell?  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then so much also the more, may every one of these be said to be just and honest, as he is unindifferent and partial.  AQVILONIUS. 
Not only to be honest and just, but also to be grave and constant in his proceed; and all this by the credit of his Wealth, which according to the opinion of the Philosopher, Is a sign of eternal Glory, as the only thing at this day, that doth govern the whole world, having force to throw unto the ground, not only the power of the Laws, but the strength of Arms, and the skill of Art, and Wit of man in all things.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that unto one who hath little or nothing to begin withal, his necessity, you think, may permit him to deceive any man by Injustice?  AQVILONIUS. 
You say well; the Profit that may rise of this Injustice, ought not to be so culpable in him, as the like unjust profit, that may rise unto a rich Magistrate.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then somewhat, belike, you have yet more at large to say, touching Profit in this lower degree, not in Magistrates as before, but in such others, as being but poorly borne, have no way else to live, but by their own exercise only?  AQVILONIUS. 
Upon what other pillar else may we better lay the foundation of such a poor man's Profit?  SUBSOLANUS. 
Will you therefore that we account all sort of Mercenary gain, which is the reward of Exercise, to be good and lawful?  AQVILONIUS. 
At leastwise still unto a poor and needy man, as I have said before.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But how far do you account this word Exercise to be extended? and unto what?  AQVILONIUS. 
Unto all sorts of industries, as well of the mind, as the body.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And all this you will have us hold to be lawful unto the supply of Poverty?  AQVILONIUS. 
I hitherto see no cause to the contrary, and the rather also, for that according to Hesiodus, not Exercise, but Idleness is said to be Villainy.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that all gainful Exercises you will have to be lawful still to a poor man, whether they be of the mind or body?  AQVILONIUS. 
I have alleged you my authority, confimed also, as some say, by Socrates, though Xenophon perhaps deny it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
As for example, it may be lawful for him then to make his gain by Craft, because it is an Exercise of the mind, and also by Fraud because it is an Exercise of the body.  AQVILONIUS. 
You have not hard me to say so as yet.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then some exercises belike may be gainful, which are not lawful.  AQVILONIUS. 
The censure of the Law is one thing, and the vulgar opinion of men another, who do many times admit by custom some things to be laudable, which be not strictly lawful.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You mean, perhaps, that to use false weights may by the common custom thereof be laudable, though not lawful.  AQVILONIUS. 
You choose out still the hardest examples that may be.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that some exercises also may be gainful, which be neither lawful nor laudable.  AQVILONIUS. 
It is enough for my purpose, if unto the help of a poor man, they be but only tolerable.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You think it then belike a tolerable kind of counterfeit gain, to falsify one thing for another?  AQVILONIUS. 
If so it may be done in such a place, at such a time, and by such a poor person, as cannot well otherwise live, what letteth, I pray you, that it may not be accounted tolerable?  SUBSOLANUS. 
So as besides the poverty of the person, there must also concur the convenience of time and place, to make an evil gain tolerable?  AQVILONIUS. 
I put in enough to avoid the rather your exceptions against it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then some kind of gains may be tolerable in one place, and time, that may not be tolerable in another?  AQVILONIUS. 
I will not greatly stand with you herein.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And where the exercise is not tolerable, there the gain which riseth thereof is not in any wise to be permitted.  AQVILONIUS. 
I see as yet no great difficulty, why not to allow it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So that one, and the same gain may, by the diversity of the time and place, be both tolerable, and not tolerable.  AQVILONIUS. 
Why not I pray you, as well as one and the same gain, yea at one and the same time, be both profitable, and unprofitable?  SUBSOLANUS. 
You will make me, I hope, to understand your mind a little better herein.  AQVILONIUS. 
As for example, to have gained in the time of war a fierce & bold horse, is it not profitable? and yet if his fierceness & boldness be such as his Master cannot use him, then that which is profitable, is also unprofitable to him.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So as by this account it would seem, that every thing which is contrary to profit, is unprofitable.  AQVILONIUS. 
It soundeth so of itself apparently enough, if I had not confessed it already.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Health, Liberty, and Wealth, be they not profitable things?  AQVILONIUS. 
Profitable I grant them to be.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then all that which is contrary to any of these is unprofitable.  AQVILONIUS. 
How can it otherwise be, by the alleged rule of contraries?  SUBSOLANUS. 
As for example, the having of a rich wife is unprofitable, because it may be an impediment to health; the study of letters is unprofitable, because it may be a hindrance to liberty: and the eating of meat is unprofitable, because it is a consuming of wealth.  AQVILONIUS. 
You be a merry companion, I see, to deal with all, that have reduced this your disputation of Profit, unto so base and vile a conceit in the end, as if beggary were a thing to be jested at.  
¶ Hear Favonius seeing Subsolanus entered into a cogitation with himself, what answer to make hereunto, began before him, to say unto Aquilonius.  FAVONIUS. 
I am nothing at all of your opinion, that Need may serve to excuse any bad kind of getting.  AQVILONIUS. 
Nor am I any thing at all of your opinion, for though bad getting, when so it is known to the world, may be somewhat reproachful, yet poverty I take to be a greater reproach, because it cannot so well be hid.  FAVONIUS. 
To hide honest poverty there is no need, for that it bringeth with it no shame at all, and consequently no reproach, as you suppose it to do; for though at the first, it may somewhat grieve the mind with care and solicitude, yet after it is once received without resistance, and made familiar, it is facile to bear, and comfortable by keeping men sober, modest, continent, and also secure not only from infirmities, but likewise from the malice of others. For whereas the rich man, if so he spend not all, is commonly said to be covetous; the poor man we see, though his cupidity be never so great, is always held to be of a free condition full of tranquillity, and repose.  AQVILONIUS. 
What repose can there be in poverty, when neither the mind, nor the body receiveth thereby any contentment, but are still tormented both the one and the other with the defects which poverty draweth after it?  FAVONIUS. 
If Poverty bring with it any defects, they be of less moment by much, than those that do accompany wealth, the which, by the Philosopher, be said in his Ethics, to be these: first Pride, in making men vainly to think, that together with their riches they have all other benefits, as well of the mind, as of the body, and that men may any way possess any thing. Secondly Prodigality, causing men thereby to become superfluous, not only for satisfying their sumptuous desires, but also to make show and ostentation of their prosperous fortune. Lastly, it is accompanied with Arrogancy, making men still to think, that other do admire, and also affect that which they do possess; whereby supposing with their wealth to make good all their faults, they become to be so injurious to their Neighbours, that the Philosopher concludeth them in the end, to be in little better case then fortunate Madmen.  AQVILONIUS. 
As mad as you make them to be, yet are they able well enough to defend, and support themselves, which the poorer sort are no way able to do, by reason that their poverty doth so much oppress them.  FAVONIUS. 
It is rather the injurious cruelty of the rich, that doth oppress the poor more than their own poverty, the which cannot be burdensome as you suppose, chief unto one who is contented to live according to the rules of Nature, but only when it is accompanied rather with superfluous thoughts, then with due fear of necessary wants.  AQVILONIUS. 
You speak so generally against the cruelty of rich men, without any distinction made of their degrees and vocations, as if he who getteth his riches well, and he who getteth it evilly, were both of one Predicament.  FAVONIUS. 
The rich man spoken of in the Scripture (Luc. cap. 6.) you do not find, that he was condemned, because he got his goods evilly, since the Evangelist doth not say, that either he was an Usurer, or that he possessed his wealth with an evil conscience, but that he used it not well, nor with that charity as he ought to have done.  AQVILONIUS. 
So that riches you mean cannot be good unto any, but unto good men only.  FAVONIUS. 
Nor always unto good men neither, because we see by experience, that unto some good men riches do them hurt, by inciting them to Vice, and drawing them from Virtue, though the riches themselves be neither virtuous, nor vicious; and therefore not evil things only, but things which be indifferent, and which in appearance be good, may also do harm, and sometimes more harm than the things themselves which be apparently evil. And hereof it cometh, that a man may more easily let other men's goods alone, then use his own well, because on the one he knoweth that he cannot intrude without offence, but with the other he thinketh he may be more bold, to do with it what he will, without rendering any account for the same. And therefore it is no safety for a man to love his own riches too well, though they be never so justly gotten, lest thereby he be induced, not only to be covetous of that he hath, but to love those other also which may be gotten with fraud, because his too much fervent love and desire thereof may blind his judgement so much therein, as to make him think, at least, that to be lawful which is not.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then if riches may be hurtful unto good men, as well as unto evil men, unto what end hath Nature provided them?  FAVONIUS. 
She hath provided them to this end, for men to take thereof so much only as is sufficient to provide for their states, and professions without superfluity: for as the Moon doth never eclipse, but when she is at the Full: so the mind is never so much obscured, as it is with the superfluity of riches. And again, as the Moon is then furthest off from the Sun which giveth it light when it is at the Full; so a man when he is fullest of riches, is furthest off from that equity and justice, which ought to give him light in all his proceed: and therefore he might do well herein to imitate that wary Fly, which putteth not her feet into the great mass of Honey, but only taketh with her tongue, so much thereof as serveth her turn and no more, least by doing otherwise she might remain taken and drowned therein.  AQVILONIUS. 
So that by this account the more that rich men have, so much the less liberty they possess.  FAVONIUS. 
Thereof you may be sure, since gold and silver was never made to load men withal, as captives thereunto, but to load mules and horses therewith, which be captives by Nature, and nevertheless do not take upon them more than their forces be able to bear; whereas the covetous rich man never thinketh he hath enough on his back, till he fall to the ground with it, nor then neither until he hath taken upon him so much, as he is overwhelmed & quelled down under it. And is not this, think you, a thraldom and utter loss of Liberty?  AQVILONIUS. 
You say well at leastwise, for so much credit as there needeth to be given to such fabulous similitudes; but the poorer sort the while being oppressed with their poverty indeed, do lose thereby their liberty for altogether, not fabulously, as you resemble the rich to do, but visibly and palpably, to the sight and feeling of all men.  FAVONIUS. 
And yet for all this many poor men we have hard of, not only amongst Christians, but amongst the Pagan Philosophers themselves, who notwithstanding their poverty have voluntarily and freely neglected and contemned riches. As for example, Anacharses refused the treasure sent him by Gresus: also Anacreontes refused the treasure sent him by Polycrates; and Albionus refused the treasure sent him by Antigonus, besides many more of that profession, too long to be here recited.  AQVILONIUS. 
I hold them all to have been unwise, or to say better, for stark fools: because, if so they had no need of it they might have given it to others, who were in necessity, but by doing of neither, they did not thereby make known themselves so much for contemners of riches, as for fishers after vain glory: the which passion being of the two the more dear unto them, therefore to buy them fame, they forsook to take money; like as those good drinkers do, who sell their wheat to buy them malt, not because they hate bread, but because of the two, they love their drink better.  FAVONIUS. 
Perhaps in poverty there be yet some greater contentments than you be aware of, else what should have caused the great Conqueror of the world to say, that if he were not Alexander, he would wish to be Diogenes, who was of all other the poorest Philosopher of his time, or that was ever after him.  AQVILONIUS. 
You have lighted upon a notable couple of fishers after glory, and very well matched them together, the one by the way of too much riches, and the other by the way of too little sustenance, yea less than would serve his need, or the decency of his profession.  FAVONIUS. 
And yet not only Alexander himself, but many others also did hold him to be the happiest man of that age.  AQVILONIUS. 
Excess of passion is the cause of many extravagancies; and therefore Diogenes yielded less to the care of his need, then unto the care of his said excessive vain glorious passion.  FAVONIUS. 
And I am of another opinion, to wit, that Passion is more flexible than Need, the which is reputed not to be subject unto any Law at all; whereas the other we see is restrained many ways, as by penalties, by subordination, and sometimes also by gratuity, all which in their kinds do not a little bridle men's extravagant passions.  AQVILONIUS. 
I do not seek to enter so deeply into the search of such quiddities, but this I know by experience now adays, that not the learnedst Philosophers but the richest Worldlings be accounted, not only for the happiest creatures, but also for the wisest men.  
¶ Hear Subsolanus, as one that could forbear no longer to hear Aquilonius so far out of the way, preventing Favonius his answer, began thus to say unto him.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Where, I pray you, was that covetous Wisdom, you speak of, at the very first beginning of things, when there was not yet in the world any kind of money, or riches to be found at all, but that each where one commodity was changed for another? Belike the man of those days, if wisdom, as you say, had chief consisted in riches, were all fools, and yet some Wise men have said, That happy, and most happy were they, who lived in that so simple and honest an age, while no vanities were as yet discovered amongst men, nor any disordinate appetites obscured the light of the understanding, with the temptations of the frail and deceivable senses, and while there were as yet no weapons, nor wars, nor locks, nor doors, no robbing, nor stealing, nor any violent temptations unto any kind of wickedness. For though women and men did converse together no less than they do now, yet the women were modest and shamefast, and the men mild, and both of them continent, being accustomed to mortify and suppress the disobedience of the flesh, partly with abstinence, and partly with assiduous labour, so as they felt no great motives unto sin: I mean that innocent and pacifical age, when no metal was as yet digged out of the earth, nor no ox, nor horse employed to till the ground, but that every one lived of that which the earth itself of it own accord brought forth, without the help of any industry or art; for so God of his bounty had ordained, that all those things, whereof man had need, as flesh, fruits, and the like, should be provided for him, & produced for his use above the gound, hiding and burying all those other things which were superfluous (as gold, silver, and the rest) within the bowels of the earth itself, to the end he should neither love them nor desire them, nor be tempted to use them, in respect of the great harm he might receive by them. Besides that, no timbered Oak, nor Fir, nor Pine had then been framed into ships, to furrow the windy seas, either for curiosity to pass from one Country to another, or else to fetch home the variety of foreign unknown delicacies; the which art of navigating, whosoever first found out (were it either the Sorians, or the Phoenicians, or else jason of Argos and his Confederates) certain it is, that no other occasion moved them thereunto, but mere avarice only, whereof hath ensued both rapines, violences, deaths, ruins and great dispersions of people. For if Navigation had never been found out, the King of Colchos had never been deprived of his golden Fleece, together with the death of his Son, & the rapine of his daughter; nor the City of Troy had never by the Greeks been destroyed, together with Priamus the King thereof, and all his posterity; nor Greece itself had never been so desolated, as it was, by the great navy of Xerxes' King of Asia. Moreover in that age no paper, nor pen was yet in use, wherewith to write any Statutes, or Decrees, until the time that Minos gave Laws to the Candians, Lucurgus to the Lacedæmonians, Solon to the Athenians, Trismegistus to the Thebans, Phido to the Corinthians, Caronda to the Carthaginians, Romulus and Numa Pompilius to the Romans: for before those times men lived under those happy, and pleasant constitutions, which Nature herself had planted in their breasts, full of sincerity, full of meekness, and full of all other pacifical consolation, as well mental, as corporal. Therefore now to answer to your former allegation, that rich men are the wisest men, should these other men who were so happy for all things else, be therefore said to be fools, because they chief wanted the use of money, and thereby the desire to possess the same too greedily, as you would have that wise man of yours to do?  AQVILONIUS. 
Whatsoever in those days they of whom you speak either might, or might not have been said to be, I will not much stand upon; but this I will still affirm, that if now in this age of ours such poor plain dealing men, were living, neither would their sincerity, nor their meekness, nor their pacifical spirits be able to get them so much reputation of wit, as their rude poverty would condemn them for fools; whiles suffering thereby a number of worldly greivances, they could neither be grateful to themselves, nor yet acceptable unto others. For if such a poor man should now, but open his mouth to speak, every body strait would be ready to laugh at him, and to ask, Who is this? according to that in Eccles. 13.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Those worldly grievances which poverty you say bringeth with it, do rather proceed of cupidity then of any necessary need, for that the body may be sustained with a little, and therefore I see no reason why men with so much study and care should seek to feed, and nourish the same, or to adorn, and cover it so sumptuously as they do, spending therein their riches superfluously, and with very little praise at all, if not rather with rebuke and shame, since they may otherwise so easily find, not only wherewith to feed, but also wherewith to vest, without seeking as they do for the spices, and silks of foreign Countries; for that chief unto these ends, we see, is the said cupidity of their riches converted, if not unto avarice, the which of the two is the worst: for though the same, after a sort, may be coloured with the care to be had of posterity, yet in the mean season, none are so miserable as they who desire overmuch; since thereby they are ready to suffer a thousand indignities, & a thousand disgraces, if not also perils for the satisfying of their unsatiable desires, and many times also unto their own ruin, as happened unto Gresus the King of Lydia, and unto Crassus the Roman, the one overcome by Cyrus for his wealth already gotten, and the other put to death by the Parthians in seeking to get more than he had: so as the Rich man sometimes mounteth, sometimes sinketh, sometimes commandeth, sometimes serveth, sometimes is splendidous, sometimes obscure, sometimes threateneth, sometimes entreateth, and all this for the respect of things which be vile; and therefore how much more stable and secure art thou on the other side (o gentle Poverty!) thou, I say, who when thou observest the Laws of Nature, dost subdue all painful industry, dost overcome all mortal honour and dost contemn the vain discourses of men, not caring for the heat of the summer, nor much esteeming the cold of the winter, but contented to repair the one with the shadow of the leaved trees, and to withstand the other with the help of the cheap untawed skins of beasts, whereby in that homely weed thou shunnest the temptations of all idle love, of all vain lasciviousness, & of all shameful lust, as also all the envy of men, all the danger of thieves, and all the disturbance of broken sleeps: wherefore to thee be the eternal praise of all ingeniosity, of all inventions, and of all arts, as unto the egregious Mother of all study, of all speculation, and of all operation: whose virtues (to conclude) be many, whose refuges more and whose benefits be infinite.  AQVILONIUS. 
These be Sophistical fictions, rather than reasons, all of them found out by the art and malignity of such, as under a certain kind of Philosophical authority, do attend to invent those abstracted arguments; thereby to give credit and reputation to the beggarly and bare state of their own base fortune, because they are not able to attain unto more; and therefore annexing Pride unto Beggary, do wax bold thereby, to make an exterior show of competency with the rich, while interiorly yet they be glad, when they can, but to finger only some fragments of their felicity and abundance, under pretence sometimes to buy them books, and other like necessaries, though they bestow it after, more lasciviously than they would willingly be known to do; and therefore there is no heed to be taken at all unto their public words, and sayings, but rather to their hidden thoughts, and secret workings, contrary to that which they preach and teach unto others openly, making them believe in show that their own state is better, than the state of the rich, though they think it to be otherwise, & would be glad to change with them. Which kind of proceeding Pliny writing to his friend Fabatus, doth say, That there is nothing more perilous then to think, that the state of one man is better than another, because hereby they who find themselves to be in the worst, never leave to contend, if not also to conspire, against the fame of those others whom they suppose to be in better state than they. And hence it cometh, that the poor do inveigh so much against the rich, not for that they would not be rich themselves, but as I have said before, because they are not able to reach to any more, than their beggarly fortune hath allotted them.  SUBSOLANUS. 
What more in this world should either they, or any other need to seek for, than a quiet and pacifical mind, well contented with whatsoever God sendeth, be it either Poverty, or what other thing else; since with this only consolation, a man is happy enough, though he be otherwise never so poor; and without this, he is nothing happy, though his riches be never so great: So that every state is good, and every state is evil, not so much in respect of itself, as in respect of the circumstances it bringeth with it. For who will deny, that the state of a rich man may not be good, if so it be used with temperance; or that the state of a poor man may not be evil, if so it be not supported with patience, since not the sufferance of any adversity doth make a man happy and blessed, but the pacifical mind wherewith he tolerateth the same; and therefore every one ought to conform himself not unto that state which he may think of in his mind (because worldly men do most of all incline unto that which their covetousness doth make them desire) but unto that state and degree, whether so it be rich or poor, which God for the more safety of his soul hath put him into. For so we see all other things else conserve the states which God first gave them, without repining thereat at all; as the Heavens, the Stars, the Air, the Fire, the Water, the Earth, and all sorts of beasts, of fishes, and of plants, and all other earthly creatures, only man excepted, who by his fall into sin, is never contented with his state, but is always desirous of change: the Countryman would be a Citizen, the Citizen would be a Soldier, the Soldier would be a Merchant, and the Merchant would be a Gentleman; and which is most of all strange, the poor man would leave his quiet, his careless, and his unpensive state, to change with the rich man for his, who neither day not night, nor sleeping, nor waking doth possess either of body, or mind any sweet repose.  AQVILONIUS. 
It is a very hard thing to be able to persuade men with reasons, unto that which they feel to be otherwise in themselves by experience; for who may repose more quietly than may the rich, that have all their necessaries provided for to their hands, and also their laboursome Offices executed by others? or if by chance they break any sleep, it is, you may be sure, in thinking of golden employments, or else touching exploits of Policy and Preferment: so that, the not sleeping of the rich, is more comfortable far, then is the unquiet and half starved sleep of the poor, in the next degree unto death itself. And therefore, as it is more than necessary for a poor man, both for his sleeping and waking, to seek to better his state, by the getting of riches to relieve his penury, and to comfort his said unquiet repose; so is it no less necessary for a rich man to conserve and increase his wealth already possessed, without being too careless, or too negligent thereof, at every smattering Booke-mans' persuasion; for like as strength was ordained to withstand violences, and not that the strong should sillily suffer themselves to be overlaid; and as health was ordained to make men able to follow their affairs, and not that the healthful should retiredly rust away in idleness: so riches were also ordained to help to provide for necessaries, & not that the rich should either foolishly forsake, or consume their wealth lavishly. For what praise could it be either to Lucius Mummius the Roman Captain (who subdued Corinth) to have died so poor, by neglecting his own state, as his Soldiers were driven to make a common gathering for his burial? Or unto Paulus Aemilius (who subdued Macedon) to have left his daughters so poor, by the like occasion, that the Common Wealth was feign to give them their marriage money? Or else unto the younger Africanus (who destroyed Carthage) to have neglected so much the care of his family, as his Daughters were fain to beg for their dowries? These be the brave examples of the neglectors and despisers of riches, to have greatly damnified, if not utterly undone, their posterity thereby; contrary unto that which we read of Pallas, of Callistus, and of Narcissus, the enfranchised slaves to Claudius the Emperor, who left behind them divers millions of Crowns; as also amongst the Philosophers, we read of Cicero, of Terentius Varro, and of Seneca to have risen from little to be men of great riches: and likewise amongst the soldiers we read of Caius Marius, Lucius Sylla, and of Ventidius Bassus, who by their own industries rose up unto infinite wealth, and their posterity after them unto great fame and glory; where on the other side, what in this world can be more reproachful than poverty, or a greater enemy unto all kind of virtue, either in women or men? As for example, in women what more unfaithful a Guardian may there be found of their chastity (and consequently of all that is good in them) then is want and necessity, when as the unmarried be easily drawn thereby unto all sorts of lasciviousness, for fupply of their need, and the married be drawn no less to make like havoc of their honesty? And in the same fort touching the state of men, what so much doth abase them, or maketh abject and vile their minds, not only in their own conceits, but also in the opinion of others, as doth the burden of Poverty: for (so saith the Wise man, Eccles. cap. 9) That the wisdom of the poor is despised. And again (Eccles. cap. 40) That it were better to be dead, then to live in want and need; adding withal in his proverbs; That all the days of a poor man's life, be nothing else but misery. Besides that, what also may be unto gratuity a greater enemy than the same? What unto shamefastness, Cùm non bene conveniunt, nec in una sede morantur pudor & egestas? And what unto the observation of all sorts of Laws, both human, and divine, unto the which necessity beareth no respect at all? So that not without cause is Poverty called the greatest enemy unto man, the companion unto all kind of Vice, and of all other evils the extremest, yea worse than either sickness, or imprisonment: for that unto him who is wealthy, there be remedies enough to be applied for the one, and consolations enough to be found for the other; and therefore though you in words do seem to favour poverty never so much, yet I suppose for the putting of it in practice, you will strive against it, no less than any other.  SUBSOLANUS. 
To strive against Poverty, we are not expressly commanded, further than necessity requireth, nor yet prohibited, so long as men get riches without the violating of justice, the which is understood to be violated, not only by fraud, or force, as hath been said before; but partly by not restoring that which is borrowed, and partly by not rendering at the day that which is hired, and likewise by not abstaining to wear out things left us in custody and trust. And as none of these injustices are to be used for the relief of poverty, so also much less for the increase of wealth, since the superfluity thereof is not, as you suppose, a shunner of vice, but an enemy to virtue, as hath been told you already, making men so idle, so slothful, and so lascivious, as they become altogether effeminate, neither given to the practice of Arms, nor yet to the study of letters. And therefore Democritus judged the abundance of riches to be foolish, Heraclitus judged it to be miserable, and Crates judged it to be frivolous and burdensome, for which respect he threw his Wealth into the sea; though no kind of wealth be so burdensome as that, which being wrongfully gotten, doth seldom times descend unto the third generation, & therefore the burden of honest poverty cannot be so heavy to bear by much, as the burden of a rich man's culpable conscience. For what else doth take away either the innocency from the body, or the life from the soul, but the infection of sin? So that sin alone is more hurtful unto man then can be the hurt of all the world beside, or of Hell itself. For what drove the Angels out of Heaven (Isa. 14.) and Adam out of Paradise (Genes. 3.) or the great Flood into the world (Gen. 8.) but sin? Or what else overthrew the great Tower of Babylon (Gen. 11.) or destroyed Amalec, and the Giants (Exod. 17.) or caused to be cut in pieces the great army of Senacherib (4. Reg. 19) but sin? not to speak of the burning of five Cities (Gen. 19) or of the persecuting of Egypt with the seven plagues (Gen. 41.) or of the drowning of Pharaoh in the red sea (Exod. 14.) And finally (to omit all other examples ancient and modern) what are all the miseries, calamities, & afflictions that fall upon men, but punishments for sin? And therefore seeing that abundance of riches is a special motive, and cause of sin (as I have declared before) it is evident that rich men are in a dangerous state; in which respect our Saviour himself affirmeth, That it is as hard for a rich man to enter into Heaven, as a Camel to pass through a needle's eye: whereas poor men on the other side, are in far greater security, if they be good men withal: for they do still receive comfort from God in all their distresses be they never so great, and do never want necessaries. For so God relieved the poverty of Agar by an Angel (Gen. 16.) the distress of David and his people in the desert. (2. Reg. 17.) the misery of Noemi by Ruth the wife of Booz. (Ruth. 2.) and the poverty of Elias by an Angel (3. Reg. 29.) besides the like done upon divers occasions to the Apostles themselves (Act. 5.12.27.) and to innumerable other good men in all ages, whereof infinite examples might be alleged. Furthermore the poor man who being confident of Gods merciful providence, is contented with that which God giveth him, wanteth nothing, having all that he will have, because in not willing that which is superfluous, he hath whatsoever he desireth, and therefore he alone may be said to be poor, who is not contented with that which he hath, and desireth superfluities. And on the other side, only he may be said to be rich, who hath no need nor want of any thing, more than is requisite, and who desireth not that which he hath not, but only so much as he must needs use, and may also conveniently have: so as it is not the abundance of wealth that maketh a man rich, but the contented mind; nor the want of wealth that maketh a poor man, but the mind afflicted for that which is wanting. And therefore to be rich with desire of increase, is to be poor, and to be poor without desire of more, is to be rich: the which is another account then the world doth use to make either of the one or the other, reputing him to be poor who hath but little, though he be content therewith, and him to be rich who hath a great deal, though he live besides it, and never thinks he hath enough. And these kind of rich men be inferior far unto that other sort of poor men, both in life, in death, and also after death: in life, I mean, because the poor man enjoyeth more his liberty, both to go where he will, and to speak what he will, without any great heed taken unto him; also suffereth more easily miseries, as one who is more accustomed to bear them, and taketh more pleasure in any recreation, as one not so wont to have them. Likewise the rich man is inferior to the poor man in respect of his death, because no body conspireth or desireth his end, for that nothing is to fall unto them by the same; neither hath he himself when he departeth any burden to disquiet his mind, for that he hath not any accounts with the world to make, neither is he so loath to leave the world; as the rich man is, to whom not only the hour of death, but also the very remembrance thereof is most bitter, as testifieth the holy Scripture, saying; O mors, quàm amara est memoria tui homini habenti pacem in substantijs suis! Moreover to show that the rich man is likewise inferior to the poor man after his death, there shall need here no other proof, then that which Christ himself hath said thereof (Luc. 6.) Blessed are you that be poor, for yours is the Kingdom of heaven. And again; Miserable are you rich men, who in your riches have all your consolation. So that the rich man hath his glory here on earth and the poor man hath his in heaven; and therefore God ordained in the old Law (Deuter. 10.) That the Levites who were chosen for the Altar, and for his own service, should have no possessions: and in the new Law the Apostle testifieth (1. Cor. 1.) that Pauperes elegit Deus ad hereditatem regni caele is: yea our Saviour Christ did not only live in poverty himself, and choose poor disciples, but also did advise and counsel a young rich man, to sell all that he had, and give it to the poor: So that poverty, although it be most where abhorred, yet is it a great, and an inestimable treasure, in respect both of the world to come, and also of this life, as being the mother of tranquillity, the excluder of disquietness, the Port of contentment and rest, a sufferance without loss, a passion without strife, and the high way to eternal happiness in heaven, so that it be sought and willingly suffered for the love of God.  AQVILONIUS. 
And yet for all this we see few rich men that do abandon their wealth, to make themselves poor, which is a great sign that there is something in poverty more contrary to nature, than there is in riches.  
¶ Hear Favonius misliking the obstinacy of Aquilonius, said thus unto him.  FAVONIUS. 
He who speaketh against poverty, speaketh against riches: for first, men were poor before they were rich, and so labouring by little and little against their said poverty, have become to be rich in the end.  AQVILONIUS. 
Then according to this reason, we might likewise say, that he who speaketh against Disprofit, speaketh against Profit; albeit before, we have said them to be contraries.  FAVONIUS. 
As contrary as they are, it cannot be denied, but that Disprofit goeth before Profit, and spending before getting; the Ploughman must spend in tilling his ground, before he can reap any fruit; the Artisan must lay out in buying of wares to work upon, before he can receive any gain; and the Merchant at sea must put in venture to lose all, before he can come to see his own again. Also the Suitor at Law spendeth much in following of his suit, before he can come to have any judgement on his side; the cunning Courtier giveth first many Presents, before he can get any reward in recompense; and the buyer of Land layeth out more money in one hour, than he is to see again in twenty years after. Likewise the makers of paper must buy many rags, before their paper can be made; the Printers of books must buy paper, before their books can be sold; and the students of Sciences must buy many books, before they can make any profit of their studies; whereby it appeareth that Disprofit many times is the beginner of Profit.  AQVILONIUS. 
So as by this means you will infer, that if you take away poverty, you take away riches; and if you take away Disprofit, you take away Profit.  FAVONIUS. 
You say well, since for as much as belongeth to the first part of your proposition, I do ask you, What delight a rich man might hope to find in his riches, if so there were no poor man to do his labours for him? As for example, to till his ground, to keep his horses, to go to the market, to dress his meat, to fetch home his wood, to plaster his walls, and the like; all which servile offices, and many other worse than these, if he should be driven to do them himself, his wealth might lie by him, and stand him in little steed: so as though by taking away poverty, you do not actually take away the means unto the getting, and increasing of riches (which may sometimes be otherwise also obtained, then by industrious poverty) yet in effect you should bring thereby the rich man to be (for want of Drudges to serve him) in little better case than the poor man himself; which poor man, by doing but only those labours for his own proper use, which he is now hired to do for the rich man, and the rich man thereby forced to do those labours for himself, which now the poor man doth for him for his money, he would be of the two, in worse case, by being less able than the rich man to take such pains; and therefore the poor man, if he will, may better live like a poor man, without the help of the rich man, than the rich man may live like a rich man, without the help of the poor man.  AQVILONIUS. 
I think you two have conspired together to sort out betwixt you all the subtleties, that may be found in the favour of poverty, which yet when you have all done, is like enough (according to the Proverb) betwixt two stools to fall to the bare ground; where barely also it may be like to lie, and that for a good while, I suppose, ere either of you both will stoop to take it up. But what on the other side have you yet to say, touching our mentioned disprofitable Profit? Belike you mean to reduce also the same unto such a jesting reckoning, as Subsolanus, a little before, brought the like proposition.  FAVONIUS. 
You shall see that, ere it belong, by my manner of proceeding; wherein I have likewise to ask you, Whether all that wealth which is extant now in the world, be not each where already possessed?  AQVILONIUS. 
It can not be denied, but that it is.  FAVONIUS. 
Then whosoever will go about to make any increase of Profit, must seek to draw to himself some part of that wealth of the world which others do yet possess.  AQVILONIUS. 
If your meaning be of money, either gold, or silver, he must do so perforce.  FAVONIUS. 
So as he who hath money must first diminish thereof, before he, who hath no money, or else but little money, can be able to increase the same.  AQVILONIUS. 
Good reason it is, that it should be so.  FAVONIUS. 
Then the disprofit of the one must precede the Profit of the other, and so by consequence, if you take away the disprofit, you take away the Profit, as hath been said before.  AQVILONIUS. 
You deceive yourself herein, and that not a little, since it is not like, that he who hath wealth, will so diminish himself of his having, without some recompense from him who hath to participate thereof, either by his service, or by his work, or else by some other recompense, whereby his Disprofit one way is to be restored him again, by his Profit some other way.  FAVONIUS. 
But what do you say moreover unto this other point unthought of, which yet remaineth behind: May not that which a rich man doth take to be for his Profit, fall out otherwise to be Disprofitable unto him?  AQVILONIUS. 
You may do well to explain yourself somewhat better, and then will I answer you.  FAVONIUS. 
As for example, If a rich Usurer should have need of a poor Broker's service, to help to put out his money to usury, giving him for every hundred so put forth a competent reward, and that the Broker being bribed on the other side, should cause him to lend his money to one who hath no means to repay it; Hear I would know of you, by what kind of Profit, the Usurer hath to repair the damage of his Disprofit?  AQVILONIUS. 
By seeking his remedy of the Broker: or if he be not able to make it him good, then to stand to his own loss.  FAVONIUS. 
So that in this case, his Profit like enough may be turned to Disprofit.  AQVILONIUS. 
It cannot be avoided, but that sometimes such casualties will happen.  FAVONIUS. 
But what if the Broker himself should lose hereby the credit of his office for ever after; would not this be likewise unto him a greater Disprofit, than the Profit of his bribe received for doing that treachery?  AQVILONIUS. 
A bird in the hand, I can tell you, is better than two in the bush; and therefore it is not good for such a poor man, to leave the certainty, for the incertainty, lest his poverty might wholly oppress him, while his said credit is yet but a growing.  FAVONIUS. 
Then in a poor man I perceive you account Treachery not to be Dishonesty.  AQVILONIUS. 
Less dishonesty in him by much, you may be sure, then if it were in a rich man.  FAVONIUS. 
So as we may now say by this account of yours, that there be two sorts of honesties; one for rich men, & another for poor men.  AQVILONIUS. 
You might long since have understood my meaning herein, without these replications.  FAVONIUS. 
As for example, you mean that the rich man's honesty must be tied, at , unto all the strictest rules thereof that may be, as well concerning the habits of the mind, as the virtues of the body, the one to be limited with sincerity, and the other with equity.  AQVILONIUS. 
It quadreth very well with his condition.  FAVONIUS. 
But the poor man's honesty you say, must be permitted to have a larger scope, chief in respect of his necessity.  AQVILONIUS. 
It is a thing, I can tell you, to be had in consideration.  FAVONIUS. 
So that, if I should practise with such a needy poor fellow, I must allow him the liberty to deceive me, if he can.  AQVILONIUS. 
Such public allowance thereof is not necessary, but only a kind of silent toleration, in respect of his urgent need.  FAVONIUS. 
As much to say, as that I must allow him the name of an honest man, but yet not trust him any more, then if he were a very Knave.  AQVILONIUS. 
Fair words, I pray you, since Nature you know is of herself frail, and this world of ours more corrupted than ever, according to Subsolanus his assertion a little before.  FAVONIUS. 
Will it not then be necessary for these respects to seek to distinguish somewhat further, whom you take to be a poor man, and whom not, to the end we may deal with him accordingly?  AQVILONIUS. 
A poor man, I take him to be, according to the limitation of the Civil Law, whose wealth doth not pass the value of fifty Crowns.  FAVONIUS. 
Then if any necessity of mine should constrain me to use the help of a new set up Notary, not known to me before, I must first ask him, whether his wealth do amount to fifty Crowns, before I do adventure to utter unto him the secrets of my intention, to the end to know what kind of honesty I may look for at his hands, either the strict, or else the more ample.  AQVILONIUS. 
You seem, me thinks, inclined rather to quarrel, then to conclude, by picking these exceptions so impertinent to the purpose.  
¶ Hear Subsolanus being desirous to draw this question to an end, began again to say to Aquilonius.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Me thinks it would now be requisite, seeing nothing can be profitable, as hath been said before, that is not just, to add thereunto this other assertion, that nothing can be just, which is not honest; for that no justice can stand without honesty, nor no honesty without justice, nor no Profit without both: and therefore like as Honesty in a Magistrate, is to be called justice, so justice in a poor man is to be accounted Honesty, and both honesty and justice as well in the poor man, as in the Magistrate, are to be called Virtues, because he who is not virtuous can neither be just, nor yet honest; whereupon it followeth, that the ground of all lawful Profit, must first proceed from Virtue, as from the original of all moral goodness, since he who is virtuous, hath always a scruple to get any thing indirectly, lest he should be urged to make restitution thereof again with shame; for he who doth not this, deceiveth many others, and himself also, unto his own utter perdition in the end, as shall appear further hereafter. So that virtue, justice, honesty, and lawful Profit go always linked inseparably together; the Profit being directed by justice, and honesty, and both these by virtue. Furthermore what sufficient excuse or pretence can there be for fraudulent dealing, when Nature herself hath provided sufficient and lawful means for the relief of poverty, to wit, honest industry, and frugal parsimony, two such principal, and also familiar kinds of helps, as few men be debarred from them, at leastwise, for the supply of so much as is needful. For first, as touching honest industry, it is to be noted, that no man by nature hath more burden laid upon him, then of one mouth to feed, and of one back to ; unto the supply whereof, she having given him two legs, and also two hands, the number of purveyors, is double to the number of consumers: besides that, she hath also given him agility of wit to teach him, and strength of body to enable him, and freeness of will to put him forward unto the lawful applying his said legs and hands, for the sustenance of his whole body. And as concerning his frugal parsimony to spare and lay up of that, which he hath lawfully gotten, his own reason, besides the instinct of nature, ought not a little to move him thereunto, since daily there may happen unto him, not only unlooked for losses, but also sickness which may hinder his industry, if not age itself, which is not apt to work any more; and therefore the remedy unto all these casualties, is that frugal parsimony spoken of before, the which may be called a sure and favourable Hospital, if not rather a Sanctuary to keep men from penury, and imprisonment, far more sure than heretofore were either the public Hospital of Cadmus in Thebes, or the famous Temple of Diana in Ephesus; for if men would be content to leave off all defrauding, and live frugally, that is to say, with only so much as were necessary, we should see as few beggars, or as few prisoners for debt, as we see at this day either Centaurs, or Gorgon's.  AQVILONIUS. 
These rules of yours against fraud, and deceiving, and in the favour of lawful getting, were, I confess, to be considered, if every man would be content to observe them alike as well, I mean, the contented poor man with his own estate, as he who aspireth unto higher fortune: but since it is impossible to bring it to pass, but that deceivers of men, for their own gain, will still be found, I hold it therefore a kind of worldly wisdom, rather to deceive then to be deceived; so long as it is warily done, either for the supply of need, or else, as hath been said, unto the increase of degree, for that every man will not be content to live always in low estate, as you by your former propositions would suppose.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Though he be never so desirous to increase his degree above the rank of those of whom we have lastly spoken, yet to promote that desire of his, he must not go about to deceive others, under pretence of not being deceived, since hereby it might follow, that he may so deceive those who had no intention at all to deceive him: besides that, if you will allow profitable deceiving to be such a badge of a worldly wise man, you take thereby away from his wisdom, all the reputation of that virtue, justice, and honesty which we have already spoken of, and so thereby do make no difference betwixt good men, and evil men.  AQVILONIUS 
I would not you should take me for such a confounder of these things so together, but that still, I make this difference betwixt them; to wit, that these men for the most part, whom you do account to be good, are each where seen to be poor, needy, miserable, full of adversities, full of wants, full of affliction, and full of all persecution, because either they cannot flatter, or not tolerate the lightness of men's conditions, or not forbear to speak of their faults too freely; whereas contrariwise, those other whom for following their gain you account to be evil, are seen to be rich, jocund, exalted, loaden with rewards, with followers, and with all other felicities of this world: in so much as throughout all the places, where I do pass, I hear in effect no other talk, than whose is this sumptuous Palace of such a Ribald? whose is that other of such an Usurer? whose is that great Kingdom of such an Usurper? that other great dominion of such a Murderer? this wonderful wealth of such a Traitor? of such a Pander? or of such a Flatterer? what say you to this? Were it not better to be one of these evil men, than one of your good men? Therefore see, I pray you, now whether I know or not, how to distinguish betwixt them, and that in such manner, that a man of little skill may be able thereof well-nigh to make his election. So as to conclude, none but such as either have not the fortune, or not the wit to attain to these benefits, are driven to shroud their base condition (and that possibly more for shame then for love) under the positive titles of honesty, and goodness.  SUBSOLANUS. 
In this former account of yours, do you make your said fraudulent rich man to consist of body only, or of both body and soul?  AQVILONIUS. 
The care of his soul be it unto himself, or to him that hath the charge thereof, for that point dependeth upon another account.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But yet let me ask you, whether your recited benefits, happening to such an evil man, be beneficial also for his soul, or but for his body only?  AQVILONIUS. 
Belike you take me for the Curate of the Parish where I dwell, but you deceive yourself therein, let every man render account of his own charge, for I speak like one of mine own profession.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Yet this ensueth thereof, that put the case, it were never so good for the body to be fraudulently rich, yet if it be evil for the soul, the one half at the least of all your evil man's felicities, is lost by the affliction which the same may heap upon the soul, of which point I will treat particularly in the conclusion of this days Conference; and now in the mean time, we will consider whether all that you have said be true in respect of the body alone. Therefore I would know, whether he that seemeth unto you for his wealth to be so happy abroad, may not be full of other miseries, and infelicities at home?  AQVILONIUS. 
It cannot be denied, but that some discontentments he may possibly have.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Those some belike you mean to be either these, or such like; As for example, to be afflicted with an unruly, or disloyal wife, a disgracious or unthrifty heir, a defamed or dishonest generation of daughters, or which is a more noisome evil, an unplacable nature of his own, either stirred up with drink, whereby he always raileth, or overheated with choler, whereby continually he striketh, or else oppressed with suspicion, whereby he never leaveth to torment both himself and others, and so enjoyeth no pleasure or contentment of any thing he possesseth; or if any little contentment he find, it is possibly more when he is abroad, then in his own house, albeit abroad also the reproachful encounters of his external dishonest proceed, cannot but much diminish the same, not suffering such a polluted person to look upon good men with a right eye, nor to talk with them willingly, but casting down his head to fly and shun their company, for fear lest any thing might escape his mouth to his own condemnation; the which vigilancy of his, yet serveth him to little purpose, for that in his very sleep he many times bewrayeth his foulest faults, the which is an usual punishment that followeth each where a guilty conscience, declaring thereby what a terror it is to live in such a state, as neither waking nor sleeping, he taketh any quiet consolation or repose, but is always tormented with the terror of his own wickedness. But admit that his impudence may somewhat overcome this defect, and that either in sensuality of life, or scurrilous actions, or other corrupt behaviour, he may happen to find any more contentment abroad then at home; yet is it still accompanied with little reputation, and also in effect no more pleasure than the wicked poorer sort of men do likewise find; and so his estate, by this account, is but little better than the estate of him that possesseth much less, if it be not rather much worse, by how much the care of keeping his ill gotten wealth tormenteth him more. And therefore let the evil rich man either stay at home, or go abroad where he will, let him gather wealth, or purchase revenues, let him build very stately, or feed very delicately, yea let him fill his Wardrobe with rich apparel, his chambers with precious ornaments, his chests with plate, his compt-bookes with debts, his stable with horses, and his house with never so many servants; yet shall he never be able to rid his heart of grief, his breast of fear, his cogitations of shame, his conferences of reproach, his solitariness of distractions, nor his conscience of continual biting remorse, than the which there can be no greater signs and tokens to be had of a most lamentable and miserable state: the which is so much also the fuller of torment, and affliction, by reason of his always most unsatiable and greedy mind of having and getting, never contented or satisfied with that he possesseth, but the more he heapeth and boardeth up, the more he still desireth; and all this unto his greater affliction, servitude, and slavery, by making thereby himself more thrall than before, either unto the tempestuous variety of sickle fortune, or of filthy vice, if not of both, the which may be said to strive, as it were, whether shall be able to torment him most, or to make him most miserable, by reason of his bondage and subjection alike unto either; albeit fortune without vice, cannot afflict much, be she never of herself so contrary: but where they accord to assault on both sides together, there is no unhappiness of state to be compared unto it, notwithstanding that the party to the show of the world do still maintain a stately port, and be continually accounted by the vulgar sort, to be the happiest man of his nation. And therefore I may conclude, that as the Scorpion hath in her the remedy of her own poison; so the evil man carrieth always with him the punishment of his own wickedness, the which doth never leave to torment and afflict his mind, both sleeping and waking, according as it happened to Appollidorus, to Hyparchus, to Pausanius, and many others whom Plutarch mentioneth. For where there concur together (as with the rich perverser sort of men it is commonly seen to do) desire of unlawful gain, of unlawful pleasure, of implacable hatred, and of unlawful revenge; there without doubt concurreth a great deal of hidden infelicity: & which is worst of all, when the perverse rich man happeneth by any mutation of fortune, to want of his accustomed wealth, for the supplying of his frequent iniquities, than his unruly desires never leave to exclaim and cry out upon him, till they bring him in the end to commit some fouler outrages, than ever before; as for example to steal, to take by force, yea and to violate the very Temples themselves, or otherwise to be tormented still with incessant stimulations and dolours. judge therefore now unto what a happy and pleasant end your foresaid deceiver of men, for his own commodity, may be like to come before he die, besides all his other perturbations and afflictions spoken of before, being counterpoises sufficient to weigh down all the supposed and mistaken felicity, which you have already attributed unto him.  AQVILONIUS. 
Because I carelessly condescended unto you, upon your own mere interrogation, that some discontentments might happen indeed unto such a rich man, therefore belike you will cunningly threaten it upon me, as though I had in my meaning the Catalogue of all these Rabblements you have here repeated, which, I assure you, I never so much as dreamt of; albeit in the mean while, by your heaping of things in such manner together, you have in words at leastwise, gotten some colourable show of refuting wholly my former assertion: but stick you a God's name to the words, and let me stick to the matter, till we come to discover betwixt your followers and mine in this doctrine, whether shall have more necessity, or need of each others help in the end.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Belike then, honest and upright proceeding will not be able of itself to gain a man his bread, but that he must be driven to seek for his sustenance, at the hands of the worse, and wickeder sort of men.  AQVILONIUS. 
It cometh many times, we see, so to pass, for all that you hold it so strange a thing, contrary to that which affirmeth thereof the wise Simonides, who being asked once, Whether Virtue or Riches were of more reputation, made answer, that the Virtuous did more frequent the doors of the rich, than the rich of the virtuous. Besides that we see, that the virtuous themselves do not stick to give to the rich the titles of all the virtues in the world, yea and bear them all respect, reverence, and honour, without reproving them of any their vices, be they never so great, no not of their extortions, which you do so much speak against.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Howsoever some that are counted virtuous may flatter wicked rich men, in such manner as you have said, yet men of solid virtue do it not. But tell me, I pray you, be there no good men, that arrive to abundance of wealth, and other worldly benefits by good and lawful means; as well as these wicked men do by their evil means?  AQVILONIUS. 
Some few there may be, but not many.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And on the other side, think you, that there be no evil men, that for all their unrighteous dealing, do live in want and misery, and seek for sustenance at good men's hands?  AQVILONIUS. 
Only some such perhaps, as either know not the way how to cover their iniquities, or else spend more lavishly than they should.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then it is not you say impossible, but that some good men may by their goodness attain unto riches, and that some evil men notwithstanding all their frauds may remain still poor?  AQVILONIUS. 
My meaning is not to stand with you greatly herein.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But do you not also mean, that as to abound in worldly commodities is a good thing, so on the other side to be an evil man, is an evil thing?  AQVILONIUS. 
It were a great error to think otherwise.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then where an evil man becometh to possess abundance of wealth, will you not likewise grant, that there an evil thing, and a good thing come to be annexed together?  AQVILONIUS. 
You say well, for it cannot be denied.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But when in like manner a good man possesseth abundance of wealth, be there not two good things annexed then together?  AQVILONIUS. 
Of this there is also no doubt at all.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Moreover, is the good said to be good, because it is good, or because it is not evil?  AQVILONIUS. 
Because it is good.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then the good rich man, that possesseth two goods, is he not better, than the evil rich man, who possesseth but one good?  AQVILONIUS. 
These sophistications of yours, I cannot well deny, and yet they do not greatly please me.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And better than the evil poor man, that possesseth no good thing?  AQVILONIUS. 
Let this also be granted, to get me once out of this Labyrnith.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But the number you will still say of the good rich men, is fewer than of the evil rich men?  AQVILONIUS. 
Of this you may rest undoubtedly sure.  SUBSOLANUS. 
And the number also of the evil rich men, fewer then of the evil poor men?  AQVILONIUS. 
Without comparison.  SUBSOLANUS. 
So as it is more like, that an evil man may not become rich, then rich?  AQVILONIUS. 
I told you the occasion before, in respect of his unskillfullnes, or lavishness, or some other like perversity.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But when such an evil man happeneth, by any such occasion, not to become rich, is he not in a very bad case, whiles both he is a bad man, and also a beggar: whereas a good man, though he be not rich, yet because of his goodness, is he not still in good case?  AQVILONIUS. 
By your leave not so, for it is an evil thing unto him to want riches.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You would then infer hereby, that a good man is not a good man?  AQVILONIUS. 
Not so neither, but that he may be in a evil case, in respect of some wants he may have of things necessary.  SUBSOLANUS. 
You mean, I perceive, because he misseth wealth to comfort him, and solace him in his goodness?  AQVILONIUS. 
That is my meaning indeed.  SUBSOLANUS. 
Then wealth being annexed to the state of a good poor man, will make him, you imagine, more good?  AQVILONIUS. 
I have affirmed in effect so much before.  SUBSOLANUS. 
I suppose you mean it, because being a good man, it is to be thought he will apply it well.  AQVILONIUS. 
You say rightly.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But if wealth should be annexed to the state of an evil poor man, would it not also make him better?  AQVILONIUS. 
Who doubteth thereof?  SUBSOLANUS. 
You mean it (perhaps) because it is to be supposed, that being an evil man, he will apply it also well.  AQVILONIUS. 
You make a solace, I perceive, to jest at your friends.  SUBSOLANUS. 
If then an evil man may apply his wealth evilly, it would seem that wealth of itself is not absolutely good.  AQVILONIUS. 
How can it but be absolutely good, when as it is one of the principal instruments unto the exercise of virtue, as of Magnificence, Liberality, Beneficence, and the like?  SUBSOLANUS. 
So is it likewise one of the principal instruments unto the exercise of Vice, as of Arrogancy, Insolency, Revenge, and the rest.  AQVILONIUS. 
These effects you speak of, do not consist in the Wealth, but in the evil man, that doth evilly use it.  SUBSOLANUS. 
But if the wealth itself were truly, and absolutely good, it would make him the better that possesseth it; but this (according unto Seneca) it doth not, who saith, What availeth unto a Fool his wealth, since he becometh thereby no whit the wiser, nor the better?  AQVILONIUS. 
If it make him not the better, it may yet suffice, that it maketh him not the worse.  SUBSOLANUS. 
If you will believe the Philosopher in his Rhetoric, it maketh him also the worse, seeing that it maketh men Proud, Injurious, and Intemperate.  AQVILONIUS. 
He doth not mean, that it maketh all men so, but some men only: for if they be inclined unto Vice, it may make them more vicious; as on the other side, if they be inclined unto Virtue, it may make them more virtuous: and therefore it is to be accounted among those external good things, which help unto human felicity.  SUBSOLANUS. 
There can be nothing more repugnant unto reason, then to make Wealth a part of human felicity; since on the other side, the same is rather held to be either an instrument, or a member of Iniquity. For so saith the Philosopher in the Book before mentioned, That rich men for the most part, are either Unrighteous, or the Heirs unto those that have been Unrighteous, as unto some Extortioner, Deceiver, Perjurer, or the like. So as, if Wealth could make men happy, we might then conclude, that human felicity were nothing else but the reward of Iniquity.  AQVILONIUS. 
If Wealth may not make men happy, you may be sure, that Poverty may do it much less; for if happiness consisted in Poverty, then might we likewise say, that Felicity were nothing else, but the reward of a discontented and disquiet mind, because poverty is accompanied with nothing more.  SUBSOLANUS. 
If we will believe Arcesilaus, it is accompanied rather with Humility with Industry, and above all with Security; for that the rich, and not the poor be the Preys unto Pilferers, Robbers, and Manquellers. And to the end you may know, what Poverty is accompanied with true Humility, you are to understand, that of poverties there be two sorts, the one, as I may say Vnuoluntary, being incurred, and suffered against a man's will; and the other Voluntary, being chosen and undertaken of a man's own free election: of which the first is irksome and grievous, yea many times vicious and sinful, being accompanied which Envy, unlawful Desire of other men's goods, Fraud, and Deceit, Pilfering, and Robbing, and sometimes it causeth Murders and all kind of Mischiefs, and therefore is hateful both to God and man.. The second may be divided into two sorts; of the which the one may be termed Moral, and the other Religious, or evangelical. The Moral was practised by many of the old Philosophers, who freely abandoned their wealth, and chose to live in poverty, to avoid the danger, and disquiet of mind, which commonly followeth Riches, as hath been sufficiently signified before. The Religious, or evangelical Poverty being that only which is chosen and suffered for the pure Love of God, was taught and practised by Christ our Saviour himself, and his Apostles, and hath him always, and is still professed and practised in his Church by many of his servants. And this sort of Poverty is that which is accompanied with true Humility, Peace, Contentment, and heavenly Consolations; and the Poor of this sort are those whom our Saviour called B essed, and to whom he promised a hundred fold in this life, and the Kingdom of Heaven in the next.  AQVILON. 
If all men should be poor, such a Society would be like a body that were all head, or all legs, the which would not only be unserviceable, but also deformed; and therefore Nature having ordained some men to be poor, & some to be rich, it cannot well be said that Wealth of itself is evil; or if by chance, it may seem at any time to be evil, this is to be attributed still unto the evil mind of him that evilly applieth it, rather than to any thing else.  SUBSOLA. 
Then if an evil man may apply his Wealth evilly, the evil applying thereof may make an evil man the worse.  AQVILON. 
As touching this, I will not greatly stand with you.  SUBSOLA. 
So that Wealth by the same reason may hurt a good man also, if he should happen to apply it evilly.  AQVILO. 
Like enough it may.  SUBSOLA. 
Therefore when God retaineth a good man from waxing rich, it is not a sign of any hate he beareth him, but only that for his more good he preserveth him from a temptation, to become the worse.  AQVILO. 
It may well-nigh be so; but what of all this?  SUBSOLA. 
And so on the other side, when God doth suffer an evil man by any unlawful means to become very wealthy, it is not a sign of any love he beareth him, but that only for his greater confusion, he meaneth to let him run the more irrecuperably unto his own perdition.  AQVILON. 
These melancholy notes of yours, do rather distemper then any whit tune me.  SUBSOLA. 
That is because you be already out of tune, & yet are loath to perceive it; but hearken to this other point which may happen to please you better, That when God doth finally suffer any good man by his own good means, and industry, to become rich, it is a great sign that he gives him riches for his greater good, because he foreseeth that by applying of them well, he is to win great merit thereby.  AQVILON. 
It pleaseth me indeed so well, as I can be content to leave off with the loss, and to talk of this matter no more, because the further we go, the worse we agree.  SUBSOLA. 
Nevertheless before we end, I will by your leave (according to my promise made you heretofore) debate with you, how all this your former doctrine, and discourse standeth with divine Authority: which being performed, I hope you will rest fully satisfied. And therefore for as much as the divers kinds of unlawful gain (which you have approved partly in private, and partly in public persons) may be all reduced, as I may say, to one Predicament of Fraud, or Deceit practised in divers manners; we are to ponder and weigh the same in the just and equal balance, as well of the Law of Nature imprinted in every man's heart, as also of the divine Law written in the Holy Scriptures. First then for the Law of Nature; Can any man be so void of natural Reason as to doubt, whether all fraudulent Gain be not flatly forbidden by the Law of Nature, which teacheth this known principle, Quod tibi fieri non vis, alteri ne feceris? Therefore if no man would be content to be deceived by other men, it followeth, that whosoever seeketh to gain by deceiving others, transgresseth the Law of Nature. Besides that, man being ordained and borne not for himself alone, but to live in community and civil society; it is evident that nothing is more contrary to the Common Wealth than Deceit and Fraud, which being admitted would destroy all Traffic, and Commerce, and all Trust and Confidence amongst men, without the which there can be no justice, whereof Fidelity (as Cicero saith very well in his Offices lib. 1.) is the foundation, and consequently there could be no Common Wealth. In which respect Cicero also saith in the same place, That nothing doth more firmly unite, and hold together the Common Wealth, than Fidelity, which therefore Valerius Maximus (lib. 6. cap. 6.) calleth Venerabile Numen etc. a Venerable and Divine Power, and the most sure Pledge of human security. And the Romans esteemed it so much, that in the honour of it they built a Temple, wherein all Leagues, and important Covenants were publicly made and sworn, and he that afterwards did break them, was detested of all men. Also man being made to the Image of God, who is Verity and Truth itself, ought always to conserve in himself the similitude and likeness of God, which likeness by fraud and deceit he utterly looseth, becoming the true Image of the Devil, who is worthily called Diabolus, that is to say, A deceiver, being, as our Saviour termeth him (joan. 8.) Mendax, & pater eius, a Liar and the father of Lies. And therefore no marvel, that the written Law of God doth so much condemn deceitful and fraudulent dealing, that it accompanieth and compareth the fraudulent man with the Bloodsucker, detesting them both: Virum sanguinum, & dolosum (saith the Psalmist) abhominatur Dominus. And therefore God also threateneth to punish them both alike with untimely death. Viri sanguinum & dolosi (saith the same Psalmist. Psal. 54.) non dimidiabunt dies suos. And how detestable also in the sight of God is all deceit and the deceiver, the Holy Ghost signifieth, and inculcateth very often else where in the Holy Scripture saying (Prou. 1.) Every deceiver is abominable before God. And again (cap. 8.) I detest the double-tongued man. And (cap. 20.) speaking of a common cozenage generally used also in these our days by false weights and measures, he saith: weight and weight, Measure and Measure is detestable in the sight of God. Likewise the Prophet Micheas threateneth the jews with destruction for their frauds, and deceits (cap. 6.) As yet (saith he) there is fire in the house of the impious, treasures of iniquity, and a lesser measure full of wrath: why shall I justify an impious balance, and the deceitful weight of the bag, by which their rich men were replenished with iniquity, and the Inhabitants therein spoke lies; and their tongue was fraudulent in their mouths, and therefore I began to strike thee with perdition for thy sins. Thus said Almighty God by the mouth of his Prophet. And the like, yea a more terrible threat of eternal perdition, is denounced by the Psalmist to a deceitful tongue. Thou hast loved (saith he, Psal. 51.) all words of precipitation, a deceitful tongue; therefore God will destroy thee eternally: he will pluck thee up, and remove thee out of thy Tabernacle, and root thee out of the Land of the living. Lo then how hateful to Almighty God is all deceitful and fraudulent dealing, be it by word, or act. And this being true in private persons, what shall we think of fraud and deceit in Magistrates, judges, and public Persons? How abominable is the same to God and Man, and pernicious not only to the Common Wealths which they govern, but also to themselves through the severity of God's justice and judgements upon them? In which respect King josaphat having constituted and ordained judges in the Cities of juda, said unto them (2. Par. 19) Videte quid faciatis etc. Look well what you do, for you do not exercise the judgement of Man, but of God, and whatsoever you shall judge, shall redound to yourselves. So he. And the hurt that redoundeth to the Common wealth, by the injustice of the Magistrates, doth not consist only in the injuries done to the members thereof, but also in the punishment that God inflicteth many times upon the whole State for the sins of the Heads, when the same are not punished and reform in the offenders; such being the severity of God's justice, that when the Magistrates are either themselves corrupt, or else negligent in punishing the faults of others, he commonly imposeth some general penalty upon the whole common Wealth, and many times destroyeth the same, or transferreth the government thereof to stranges, as the holy Ghost signifieth in Ecclesia●●icus (Cap. 10.) saying: Regnum à Gente in Gentem tranfertur etc. A Kingdom is transferred from Nation to Nation for Injustice, and Injuries, and Calumniations, and divers Deceits. So as if we duly consider the enormity of Frauds, Deceits, and of all kind of Injustice, especially in Magistrates, in whom the same commonly passeth without any human punishment, we shall easily conclude the Fraudulent to be not only treacherous to private men whom they deceive and abuse, but also traitorous to the common Wealth, by reason of the divine Punishment which they draw upon the same; besides the eternal damnation which they purchase to themselves for their own offence therein if they do not repent, and do sufficient satisfaction for it in this life; which Satisfaction nevertheless cannot be done in matters of Injustice and Injuries without restitution of ill gotten goods, honour, and fame, according to the most Christian and known axiom of S. Augustine: Non dimittitur peccatum, nisi restituatur ablatum. In which repsect the Publican Zachaeus, being by our Saviour converted, and illuminated with the light of his Grace, did not content himself to make a bare restitution of the just value only what he had wrongfully and fraudulently got, but promised to restore the quadruple, that is to say, four times so much as he had guilfully & unlawfully gained of any man; alluding perhaps to the Law of Moses (Exod. 22.) where it was ordained, That in cases of Theft, sometimes the double, sometimes the quadruple, yea & otherwhiles five times so much as was stolen should be restored. In which respect King David swore to Nathan (2. Reg. 12.) that the rich man who had wrongfully taken a sheep from a poor man, should not only die for it, but also restore the quadruple, for so indeed it was ordained in the Law. Now then this being so, it is to be considered, what he gaineth that enricheth himself by Fraud and Deceit, seeing that he looseth not only his reputation (if it be known) but also his soul (how secretly soever he do it) in case he do not repent, and make Restitution of his unlawful gain, so far as his ability will extend. Therefore, as I asked you before, whether you made account that your fraudulent rich man should consist of body only, or both of body and soul; so now I add thereto another demand, to wit, whether you will have him to be a beast, or a man? for if you account him for a man, that is to say, a reasonable creature, we must exact of him to do the office of a man, and not of a beast, to which purpose the Psalmist saith, Nolite fieri sicut equus & mulus, quibus non est intellectus; that is to say, be not lead, or moved chief by sense and pleasure, & by the apprehension only of present objects, as horses, mules, and other beasts are, but by reason, and the due consideration of future things, and of the end of every thing, and especially of that which belongeth to the eternal good of the soul, without which consideration no man either is, or can be worthily accounted a man, and much less a wise man, for as the Wiseman saith (Eccles. 37.) Est sapiens animae suae sapiens; and therefore Moses, bewailing the folly of the jews, in that behalf, calleth them, a people without wit and prudence, saying (Deut. 32.) Gens absque consilio est, atque prudentia; utinam saperent, & intelligerent, ac novissima providerent: & the Psalmist speaking of such rich worldlings, as you have hitherto so highly commended, compareth them to brute beasts (Psal. 48.) Homo (saith he) cùm in honore esset, non intellexit; comparatus est iumentis insipientibus, & similis factus est illis. And little better account made the Philosophers and wise Paynims of such as prefer honour, riches, and worldly commodities before Virtue. In which respect Aristotle compareth them to children, who esteem their Puppets more than gold: and Seneca saith (Ep. 96.) that they are far more foolish than children, playing the fools notably, not as children do in trifles, & matters of no moment or danger, but in things of great weight and consideration, so as, saith he, veriùs, cariusque insaniunt, they are more truly & costly mad. Therefore now to conclude, concerning all that Profit and Gain which you have hitherto placed in fraudulent means, it is most evident, that being prejudicial and hurtful to the soul it cannot be accounted either gainful, or any way profitable, but most noisome and pernicious according to our saviours express testimony, saying: Quid prodest homini, si universum mundum lucretur, animae verò suae detrimentum patiatur? whereupon it also followeth, that the Philosopher's Axiom is true, to wit, That nothing is profitable which is not honest (whereof I promised you before to give you now a special reason.) For seeing that all Dishonesty whatsoever is hurtful to the soul, it cannot possibly be profitable, no more than a pleasant stung wine can be wholesome in a hot burning Fever, which albeit for the present seemeth to refresh and comfort the sick man, yet afterwards turneth to his great damage: and even so fareth it with all evil gotten gain, which, though at first, and for a while contenteth the covetous mind of the getter, yet in the end breedeth his everlasting torment, if, as I have said before, he doth not satisfy God's justice by repentance, and restitution to his power. Therefore consider now with yourself, what reason you have had in your former assertions, either to condemn good men so much as you have done, for their Poverty arising by honest Sincerity, or to extol bad men so much above measure, for their riches growing by their fraudulent Practices, and other reproachful Iniquities. The which is as much as occurreth here to be said, concerning the whole scope of unlawful Profit, generally considered.   
The end of the first Book.