AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST POPERY: Confected out of Scriptures, Fathers, Counsels, and Histories. WHEREIN DIALOGVE-wise are showed, the points, grounds, and antiquity of the Protestant Religion; and the first springing up of the points of Popery: together with the Antichristianisme thereof. Being alone sufficient to enable any Protestant of mean capacity, to understand and yield a reason of his Religion, and to encounter with and foil the Adversary. By john Mayer, B. D. and Pastor of the Church of little Wratting in Suffolk. LONDON, Printed by M. F. for john Grismand: and are to be sold at his Shop in Paul's Alley, at the sign of the Gun. 1625. TO THE HIGH AND MIGHTY JAMES, BY THE grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc. Dread Sovereign: AFter that I had compiled this ensuing Dialogue, I thought your Majesty the most fit Maecenas for it; both in respect of the matter and manner. The matter is a Dispute about Religion, both Protestant and Popish; the manner is by usurping certain names occurring in the Acts of the holy Apostles, and accommodating them so, as may best befit these times: amongst which, the chief is Sergius Paulus, before whom Paul and Elymas enter the lists, with an aim chiefly at the overcoming of this honourable person. The issue is, according to Paul's desire, the settling of Sergius Paulus in the truth; so that with him there was no more place now for Elymas. Your Majesty hath been much conversant in disputations, and now at length, I will not say being settled (for it appeareth sufficiently, that there hath ever been a settledness and resolution in your Royal breast) but not thinking good to lend an ear any longer to the frivolous arguments of such as have sought your aversion from the Truth, your MAJESTY hath provided, that they shall have no more copĭe of disputing within your whole jurisdiction. The Work, I confess, is too sleighty to be presented before so large an understanding, and the Author too mean to presume to so high a patronage: Epistle Dedicatory upon the Lord's Prayer. But forasmuch as your Majesty hath acknowledged it to have been your own course to dedicate your royal writings to fit persons, with whom each Tract might best suit; my hope is, that my boldness shall have pardon, if in following so worthy an example, I have aspired to this dedication. It hath bred much solicitude in your Majesty (as your late directions touching preachers and preaching do testify) to consider the daily increase of Popish superstition even within your Majesty's Dominions. And we your faithful subjects cannot but have a sympathy herein; for which cause we highly applauding that direction of instructing in the Principles of Religion, do apply ourselves diligently to this catechetical kind of teaching, if haply the mobile vulgus might thus be faster grounded. And for mine own part, according to that slender skill, which GOD hath given me, I have by writing endeavoured to further this kind of teaching, English Catechism. and to hold to the pattern of the lesser authorized Catechism, for the avoiding of confusion, by an uniform proceeding: wherein I have not been altogether frustrated of my end neither, there being many Reverend Divines and others, amongst whom this labour of mine hath been so accepted, as that it hath long ago come to the third impression. Now if my conjecture deceive me not, another good help to preserve from this infection, would be some Antidote of our tenants and grounds, and of Popish tenants and practices in the worship of God, without all ground set up, either by advantage taken of the darkness, or by force, there being none able to make resistance in several times and ages of the world; especially if it might be perspicuous and plain to any capacity, and brief for every ones leisure and ability. And such is this, which I here present unto your Sacred Majesty, the which or the like unto which, I could wish that every one, who is not furnished with better, would make his vade mecum. That Reverend and learned Bishop of Meath hath lately put out a Work in answer to a jesuite, of the novelty of Popery, in so complete a manner, as that a man would think, as it was said of the answer of our blessed Saviour, none should dare to ask that question any more. If this of mine coming after, it should seem superfluous, my apology is, that our Church besides the greater hath also the lesser Catechism. Babes must have their provision as well as those that are stronger. Your Majesty's care of the good of this Church committed unto you herein, like to that of Constantine in the matter of Ar●ianisme, as it hath much rejoiced my heart, and the hearts of many thousands that pray for the prosperity of Zion, so it hath encouraged me to press into your Sacred presence with this my Goates-haire, not being able to bring better. Your Majesty, I know, hath no need of such Tracts, but many of us that bring presents in this kind may be glad to learn from your Pen, and to receive knowledge from your lips; yea, 1 King. 10. ●. blessed are they that stand always in thy presence to hear thy wisdom. Yet vouchsafe, I beseech your Majesty, to suffer it to pass under the protection of your countenance to your people, and I doubt not, but the Protestant Religion shall hereby appear unto them as it is, so amiable and rightly grounded; and the Religion of the Church of Rome so corrupt, and perverting the grounds, as that thousands, which shall attentively and without prejudice read it, shall herein bless God for you; some that were ignorant of the differences of these religions, and so standing indifferently affected, being better informed; some that were wavering through the seeming truth of that heresy, being confirmed; and some that were simply seduced and gone from us, being again to the truth reduced, to the great glory of God, and to the fulfilling of the number of most loyal and faithful subjects, in whom the heart of your Majesty may most safely trust. The Father of lights, who hath so enlightened your knowledge; the Son, that life, who hath so vivified your heart; and the Spirit, that sire, who hath so inflamed your zeal for the truth, increase, confirm and prosper this your knowledge, life, and zeal to the benefiting of many souls, and to the joyful giving up of your Majesty's Accounts at the great day of reckoning; Amen prayeth he, who is Your Majesty's most humbly devoted subject and servant, JOHN MAYER. To all that conscionably inquire after the Truth, that they may be saved; both of the reformed Religion, and of the Roman Catholic. COurteous Reader, thou mayest haply blame me for my over-diligence in writing-so much, and now upon a subject so throughly canvased already in diverse books of learned Authors. But know, that I have been drawn to do this by the solicitation of others, being l●th of myself to interrupt my course in another tract, which I have begung, Treasury of Eccles-expositions. and to perfect which will require the whole life and labour. of one whole man. Many have written so I grant, in this argument, as that they exceed this of mine without all compare: but some are so large and have made their books to swell to so great volumes, as that they are only for professed Students, and not for every man's memory, leyfure or money. Some again are so short, and do so prosecute some points only, as that howsoever they be for every man, yet when they are read, almost every man remaineth still unsatisfied in many things. Lastly, some are neither too large, nor too short, but have written fully, methodically, and logically: yet not so fully, but that diverse particulars have been omitted, the common motives on both sides have not been so throughly weighed, the originals of the many errors of the Church of Rome, and the apostolic Antiquity of the Reformed Religion hath not been so declared, nor the treatises in the manner of them so fitted to the capacity of the vulgar, so as that many read them, but for want of capacity, and through these defects in the work, are not so much moved. Now to supply all these defects, and to instruct all, even my most uncapable Countrymen in every point and motive, so as that there might be nothing to hinder those that desire to know the truth, and to cleave unto and obey it; I have written this plain and short Dialogue. And herein I am not so blind but I see to what envying and hard censuring I expose myself, but neither credit, nor life are any thing to me, so that by any means I may save some: Only let me say thus much in way of Apology, that it is well known, that I am not malicious against the Roman Catholics, nor out of spite have thus written or used the name of Elymas to disgrace any but wilful Pontificians, who for sinister respects, against their knowledge seek to lead into error not only common people, but noble governors, that attentively hearken to Paul's preaching. For the rest let me entreat you to read me, not as an enemy, unless I shall therefore be counted your enemy, Gal. 4.16. because I tell you the truth; but as one that desireth and prayeth for your salvation; and I doubt not, but through God's grace, you shall see that, which will make you suspect, and not so well to like your present estate, nor so much to condemn our reformation, if not to separate yourselves, and to come out with us from amongst them, lest ye perish everlastingly. For I profess before God, who knoweth all secrets, that till I seriously studied upon these things, I was not so resolved, that the Pope is the Antichrist, nor your tenants and superstitions so damnable: but the further I waded into this study, the more was I resolved, so as that now I make no further doubt of it. And therefore my hope is, that the like effect may by reading these my meditations be wrought in others also, that the unstable may be settled, and the erring be brought home into the one sheepfold of Christ, before it be too late, which God grant unto you all for his mercy's sake. Amen. A Table of the points of both Religions discussed in this Book. Of the Protestant Religion. 1 God only is to be believed in, and not the Church. Page. 2 2 Christ only is our Mediator, and not the Saints departed. Page. 2 3 justification and salvation is by faith only. Page. 3 4 Faith assureth of salvation. Page. 4 5 The souls of the faithful go not to Purgatory. Page. 5 6 Prayers for the dead avail not. Page. 6 7 The Sacrament of the Lords Supper is no sacrifice. There is no real presence, it ought to be in both kinds. Page. 6 8 Baptism doth not quite: ache away natural corruption. Page. 7 9 The Sacraments of the new Testament are but two only. Page. 7 10 There is no perfection of righteousness in this life. Page. 7 11 There is no liberty of will unto good. Page. 8 12 Marriage is free for all men. Page. 8 13 The Scriptures alone are sufficient. Page. 10 14 None ought to be debarred from reading the Scriptures. Page. 11 15 The Pope is not supreme head of the Church. Page. 12 16 God only is to be called upon, and not the Saints departed. Page. 14 17 The use of images in divine worship is unlawful Page. 15 18 All prayers ought to be in a known tongue Page. 17 19 Confession of sins is not necessary to any but to God only. Page. 17 20 Satisfaction for sin cannot be made by works of penance. Page. 17 21 All sins are mort all none venial. Page. 18 22 To go on Pilgimage is a superstition. Page. 19 23 Extreme uncton ought not now to be. Page. 19 24 Crossing and holy water are vain superstitions. Page. 19 25 Nothing is to be taken from the word for any end. Page. 20 26 Wilful poverty is not warrantable. Page. 20 27 To vow perpetual Virginity is unlawful. page. 21 28 Of Holy days and fasts upon their Eves. page. 21 29 The Clergy is subject to the King, as well as the laity. page. 22 30 Superstitions ceremonies in baptising, are annoyed. page. 23 31 The holy Sacrament is not to be kept for after-uses. page. 23 32 The Church of Rome is no true Church, because she razeth the foundation. page. 24 33 The ignorant Papists endangered as well as others. page. 32 Of Popery. 1 Satisfaction for temporal punishments. page. 25 2 The merit of Saints: of the Mass, and of works. page. 26 3 The saints Mediators. page. 27 4 preparing for grace. page. 28 By these the foundation is razed. page. 29 5 Uncertainty of faith. page. 31 6 The Pope's supremacy. page. 37 7 The worshipping of Images. page. 43 8 The single life of Priests. page. 47 9 The real presence. page. 49 10 Prayers in the Latin tongue. page. 53 11 Purgatory and praying for the dead. page. 54 12 Crossing and holy water. page. 55 13 Freewill. page. 59 14 justification by works. page. 60 15 The uncertainty of salvation. page. 62 16 Satisfaction for sin. page. 62 17 Seven Sacraments. page. 64 18 Apocryphal Scriptures and traditions, etc. page. 65 AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST POPERY. In way of a Dialogue: Wherein, The Speakers are Saul or Paul, Sergius Paulus, and Elymas. Saul. NOble Sir, because you are an elect vessel, the Lord hath sent me to publish the true Religion unto you, by the embracing, and right professing whereof you may be saved. Sergius Paulus. What is that religion? Saul. It is the Christian Religion; taught, and maintained in the reformed, or Protestant Churches. Serg. Paul. Wherein standeth this religion? Saul. The main points of it concern either faith, or practice in exercising the parts of God's worship. Serg. Paul. Concerning faith, what doth the Protestant Church hold? Saul. I will not rehearse all contained in the Symbol or Creed of the Apostles, about which it is agreed by all that bear the name of Christians; but only those particulars, about which there is difference. Serg. Paul. I am also resolved by that which I have heard from thee heretofore, of all that is generally held by all Christians, that there is one God, which made, and governeth the whole world, who is a spirit, incomprehensible, and comprehending all things: and one Lord jesus Christ, perfect God, and perfect Man, who died for our sins, etc. Tell me therefore only, what particular points of faith are held by the Protestants, but contradicted by others? Saul. The first is, that God only is to be believed in, and not any man of what title or succession so ever, nor yet any company of men called the Church: Rom. 3.4. because God only is true and all men are liars: neither doth the Apostles Creed propound any other to believed in but God only. Serg. Paul. What, do you say that the Church is not to be believed in? Is it not expressly said, I believe in the holy Catholic Church? Saul. It is indeed said I believe the holy Catholic Church, but not in it; because the Catholic Church, that is, the Church of God being in all ages, and overspreading all parts of the world, is an object of faith, and not of sense; forasmuch as by sense and experience we cannot know this, but by faith only, as we apprehend the Communion of Saints, forgiveness of sins, and the life everlasting. Of all which the same is said that of the Catholic Church, seeing there is but one Verb, I believe, after which they all follow. So that if hence it might be gathered, that the Church is to be believed in, it may likewise be gathered, that the remission of sins, and the resurrection of the body, etc. are to be believed in, which were absurd. Serg. Paul. What is the second particular point? Saul. The second is, that Christ jesus is our only Mediator and Advocate with the Father in Heaven; neither is it lawful to come to the Father by any other but by him, and in his name alone: and that the Saints departed out of this life know not of our seeking their mediation, if we should crave it. Serg. Paul. Is the Lord so strict, that by him we are thus restrained from all Mediators in Heaven, and yet directeth us to crave the help of others upon earth to pray for us? Saul. It is the voice of Gods own Spirit. There is one God, 1. Tim. 2.5. and one Mediator betwixt God and Man, of whom only, and of none else mention is made sundry times; as joh. 14. joh. 16 Rom. 8. 1 joh. 2. As for that direction to crave the prayers of men upon earth, it is that by having mutual help one from another, our mutual love might increase, which cannot be in craving their mediation in Heaven, seeing howsoever our love may increase towards them, yet theirs is already fully perfect. But to insist upon nothing else, they cannot hear us, as the living do; and if they hear, it is kept secret from us: neither hath the Lord spoken one word to direct us to them, without which, who so seeketh to them, may justly have the complaint taken up against him, Ier, 14.14. He runneth before he is sent. Serg. Paul. What is the third particular point? Saul. The third is, that we are justified and saved only by faith in jesus Christ, and that our works even when we are at the best, merit nothing towards our eternal glorification. For to this effect speaketh the Lord. Luke 17.10. When ye have done all that ye can, say that ye are unprofitable servants. And Saint Paul. A man is justified by faith, Rom. 3.28. without the works of the Law. Serg. Paul. Is not the work of him that hath faith then of more virtue, than his that hath none? Is he not Christ's member, and so Christ's virtue his virtue, that as in Christ's actions, so in his there should be merit. Saul. The works of the best are of no more virtue to merit, because he is still a servant, and bound in duty to what he doth, whereas merit implieth doing more than duty requireth. And as for Christ's virtue communicated unto him, it is sufficient, that he is made thus worthy, though not his works, seeing perfect blessedness is already fully merited by Christ for him, neither is there need of any more merit. Serg. Paul. Can he be said to be justified then that hath no works, but resteth upon a bare faith? Saul. No by no means: for faith which justifieth, worketh by love, is lively by works, as the body by the soul. Wherefore Saint james writing against such a faith as is without works, jam. ●. 24. saith; A man is not justified by faith only, but by the works of the Law: That is, he is not become just and righteous in the sight of God, that hath a single and bare faith, but proveth his faith sound by his works. For, that he disputeth not of faith, which is the saving grace wrought in the hearts of the Elect; but of a common faith of which even Devils are capable, is plain from the Text. For only that common faith is the faith, of which he saith, A man is not justified by faith only. Serg. Paul. What is the fourth particular point? Saul. The fourth is, that faith assureth a man without wavering or doubting of the remission of his sins, and of eternal salvation. Rom. 4.20. For such was Abraham's faith. He doubted not through unbelief, but strengthened himself in faith. And that faith which is joined with wavering in any man is like the waves of the Sea. jam. 1.6. Serg. Paul. This is much that man should come to know so fare what the will of God is, touching his future estate. It may be that some singular man as Abraham or the holy Apostles, might surely know by revelation, because they had more than ordinary acquaintance with God: but for other believers I cannot see, how they should know, though they may all hope well. Saul. There is great reason, why any faithful person should know this, because he hath received the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2.12. which knoweth God's will, even as the spirit within a man knoweth his mind. Serg. Paul. But seeing every man is apt to conceive the best of himself, and natural presumption ofttimes assureth a man of his salvation; how shall he know that it is the spirit, whereby he cometh to be thus assured, and not his own partial fantasy? Saul. It is a great indignity to the Lord, when as he hath taught us, Rom 8.16. that his Spirit witnesseth with our spirits that we are the children of God; to question whether this testimony can be known: for wherefore serveth the testimony of any, if it be unknown. Many indeed do through their own fault deceive themselves, because being void of the spirit of sanctification they presume: But he that is renewed in his mind unto holiness, can never be deceived. Serg. Paul. Will the Spirit always abide where once he hath sanctified? or may not a relapse to carnality and sin, cause him to departed, that so the estate of that man, who hath been once sanctified, through his own default, may become as damnable or more damnable than before? which if it may happen to be so, what certainty can any man have? Saul. He that is borne of God sinneth not, neither can be, 1 john 3.9. because he is borne of God. If I have seemed to speak otherwise of those that have been enlightened and made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb. 6.6. I said it to stir up to work out salvation with fear and trembling, and not as positively setting down that such might fall away. Wherefore I added, I am persuaded better things of you, and such as accompany salvation, Heb. 6.9. for God is not unfaithful to forget your labour and work in the Lord. And, he that hath begun this good work, Phil. 1.6. will perfect is in you. Serg. Paul. What is the fift particular point? Saul. The fift is, That the souls of the faithful being justified by Christ, do immediately after their departure out of their bodies, take possession of that inheritance which he hath by his blood purchased for them; and that there is not any punishment by a Purgatory fire to be further endured before their coming into heaven. Luke 12. For Lazarus was carried immediately into Abraham's bosom; and the dead that dye in the Lord are said to be blessed, Because they rest from their labours: which were not true, Reu. 14.13. if they had more misery yet to pass through, rather greater than any already past. Serg. Paul. But then thyself hast taught, 1 Cor. 3.11. that every one must be tried in the fire, after which, he whose work abideth shall be rewarded. Saul. Thou art utterly mistaken: for I never taught that every man must be tried by the fire, but every man's work; concerning which it may be doubted here, even as of mettle before it cometh to the fire: but at the last day, which shall be a time of fire and burning flames, it will plainly appear, what solid or chaffy doctrine any man hath built upon the true foundation Christ, because the righteous judge of the whole world coming in person, will lay every thing open as it is. They are very inconsiderate therefore that take this as spoken of persons, it being altogether besides my purpose there to speak of any but builders, or of any pain by them to be suffered after death for the more clarifying of them from sin: but only of the difference of their acceptance before God at the last, as they have been solid or sleighty in their building; that golden Doctors of the Church might be encouraged, and the chaffy terrified, as being like, if they would not build better, to come into great peril at the last. Serg. Paul. What is the fixed particular point? Saul. The sixth is, that when any are departed out of this life, we that survive can do nothing available to their salvation, by offering up any prayers, alms, or sacrifice. Because as the rich man being dead, Luke 16.26. it was said, they that would come from thence could not: so we believe, that there is no removing of souls from woe to bliss, but as the tree falleth, so it lieth. 2 Sam 12. And therefore, as David prayed for his child being alive, but when it was dead, ceased so to do: in like manner we pray for the sick, as being yet capable of mercy, but if they be dead, we cease from praying any more, being assured, that to pray now is no more devotion, but superstition, savouring more of violent affection, then of right reason. Serg. Paul. What is the seventh particular point? Saul. The seventh is, that the Sacrament of the Lords Supper ought to be administered to all the people in both kinds, and that it is a Sacrament consisting of two parts, the thing signifying, and the thing signified; and not a sacrifice of Christ's very body and blood there substantially present, as when he was crucified upon the Cross, iterated again by the Priest to as great avail, as when he suffered for us. For this were not to remember Christ absent in the flesh, but to bring him back again to the death ten thousand times over, and to make a miracle the object of faith, when as the proper end of miracles is to help us to believe things invisible, themselves being always visible and sensible. Serg. Paul. Is not the Lord then to be beieeved, who saith, This is my body? Saul. Yes by all means, but as in other speeches we must not look so much to the letter as to the sense (as when he saith, I am the Vine, I am the Door, I am the Way; john ●5. 1. in all which he is figurative) so here taking the speech as it is meant, we believe it with all our hearts, that the bread is Christ's body to the faithful receiver, and is thus called, because by it Christ is exhibited and received indeed. Serg. Paul. What is the eighth particular point? Saul. The eighth point is, that in Baptism there is true and certain remission of sins to all repentant and faithful persons, but not an abolition of natural corruption: for that remaineth still in the baptised, to entice, jam. 1 14. Gal. 5.17. Rom. 7.23. and to draw to actual sinning, in so much that the regenerate cannot do what they would, nor yet I myself, for I find in me the law of my members rebelling against the law of my mind, and leading me captive to the law of sin. Serg. Paul. What is the ninth particular point? Saul. The ninth is, that these two Sacraments are all the Sacraments of the New Testament, because the Lord jesus ordained these, and none of the other five, which by some are added to make up the number seven. For a sacrament is God's seal, and so properly to be appointed by him, who alone hath the power over that which is sealed up hereby. Serg. Paul. What is the tenth particular point? Saul. The tenth point is, that the best are not so perfectly righteous in this life, neither can any attain to such perfection in keeping Gods Laws, but that they are still much faulty: for in many things we sinne all: and, jam. 3.2. 1 john 1.8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. Serg. Paul. What? doth Christ then command us things impossible? for he biddeth us be perfect, Mat. 5.48. Phil. 3.15. as our Father which is in heaven is perfect; and thou thyself hast said, so many of us as be perfect, let us be thus minded. Saul. There is a twofold perfection, of parts, and of degrees: perfection of parts, is when a man hath not only one grace, or a few graces, but all graces: perfection of degrees is when a man hath attained such a measure of grace, as that there is in him no imperfection or want at all. Of the former the Lord speaketh, that we should love not only friends, but also enemies, and exercise benignity to all, and not of the other. Again, there is a perfection of sincerity, and a perfection of sanctity, of the former of which only I spoke, and not of the latter; for I had immediately before acknwoledged myself not perfect in that sense. Serg. Paul. What is the eleventh particular point? Saul. The eleventh point is, that man's will is so corrupted ever since the fall of Adam, as that he cannot desire to be converted, or think a thought tending to conversion: but of his own will, he is carried only to evil, till that God of his grace changeth his will by putting a new heart and spirit into him. Gen. 6.5. 2 Cor. 3.5. Phil. 2.13. For, all the imaginations of man's heart are only evil continually: and, we are not able to think a good thought as of ourselves, but it is God that worketh in us the will and the deed of his own good pleasure. Serg. Paul. Why then are we bidden to turn from sin, to repent, and believe the Gospel? and why is it used as an argument of just judging, How oft would I have gathered you together and ye would not? if they could do no otherwise? Saul. We are bidden to turn, to show that the Lord will not turn us without our being willing, and by thus calling upon us, he worketh a willingness, in such as be elected: and if any notwithstanding are still hardened, and finally damned, the cause is not in God, who is tied to no man, but in the corruption of their own will, brought in by man's own default, when at the first it was not so. Serg. Paul. What is the twelfth particular point? Saul. The twelfth point is, that marriage is free for all men, and that none ought to be debarred from it: but if any can contain, they are to be exhorted to use this gift, that they may be more free to serve God, not being entangled with so much worldly business, as they which have wife and children. For marriage is honourable amongst all men: Heb. 13.4. 1 Tim 4 3. and it is a doctrine of Devils forbidding to marry; yea the Apostles themselves were married men, and I might have used the same liberty also, neither doth the Lord approve it to be good for any sort of men, not to marry, Math. 19.12. but for such only as can contain. Serg. Paul. If marriage bringeth worldly encumbrances, and the Ministers of the Gospel had need to enjoy all freedom, that they may the better attend upon their office, it seemeth, that the unmarried are rather to be preferred, if a sufficient number of such may be had: and if any be therefore willing to live always single, that they may be the more fit for this service, it is no forbidding of mariaege to receive only such to holy Orders. Again, though marriage be lawful, and a man's companying with his wife be no sin, yet it disableth him for a time to communicate in such things, as wherein holy persons only have liberty, as to eat of the Shewbread. Abiathar telleth David, 1 Sam. 21.4. that if they had not lately companied with women they might eate of it, and the Priests under the Law, when their course came to serve in the Temple, lived apart from their wives, as appeareth by the example of Zachary. Luk. 1.23. Saul. If any sufficient and fit for life and learning, having the gift of continency live single, it is not to be doubted, but that they are to be preferred: but because this gift is very rare, and for preferment men will take upon them that, which they have no ability unto, to admit only such into holy Orders, is in effect to forbid marriage to some, and damnable, as of the Devil, as hath been already showed. Yea it is a marvel, that they which pretend the Apostolical title so much, should be so plainly against the Apostle, who saith; Let a Bishop be the Husband of one Wife. 1 Tim. 3. Neither are they that enforce themselves to a single life, but want the gift, the more free, but rather much more troubled, seeing lust is an hundreth times more incombring, than any domestical troubles of the married. And lastly, if it be a good reason against the marriage of Priests, that companying with women makes them unfit to partake of the Holy Bread for a time, it is good also against the marriage of any Christian man, who is now also to partake of this bread, as well as the Priest. No more therefore can be hence concluded, but that all should abstain from companying with their wives against the time of communicating, as against the time of fasting & Prayer. For so I have elsewhere directed. Defraud not one another, 1. Cor. 7 5. except it be by consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and Prayer, and come together again. Serg. Paul. What is the thirteenth particular point? Saul. The thirteenth point is, that the holy Scriptures, that is, the canonical books of the Old and New Testament, are alone sufficient for salvation, neither are any other either Apocryphal Writings, or unwritten Traditions of like authority, but only so far forth to be received, as they agree with the contents of these Books. For it is plainly expressed, that though jesus did and spoke many things more, then are written, yet these things are written, that we might believe, and believing have eternal life. joh. 20.31. Gal. 1 8. And if we, or an Angel from Heaven, bring any other Gospel, let him be accursed. We that are the Apostles of Christ have ever submitted our doctrine to be examined by the written Word, and therefore, Act. 17.11. if any thing be pretended to have been taught by us by word of mouth, or by any that have followed us, not consonant to the written Word, it is without doubt to be rejected. Serg. Paul. It is no where written, that the Lords day is to be kept holy in stead of the old Sabbath, nor that infants are to be baptised, nor that the Lords Supper is to be received in the morning, or at the Church, or by women as well as by men, and yet these things are necessary. Saul. These are agreeable to the written Word, and therefore good reason, that they should be observed: but this maketh nothing for unwritten traditions contrary to the Word of God, or for the authority of any, that are without ground here. Serg. Paul. The Scriptures are obscure, and therefore alleged even by the vilest Heretics, so that if they only be received, it seemeth, that there will be nothing to patronise the truth, more than error. It is not therefore necessary to take them with the sense received by the Church, that we may hold aright, and be saved? Saul. Many places of Scripture are plain, and easy to be understood; namely, so many, as do set forth the Articles of our faith, God's holy will and commandments, and the doctrine of Prayer, and worshipping God, which is all necessary to be known unto salvation; so that herein a Christian of ordinary understanding, needeth not to depend upon the sense of others, but immediately upon the Word of God. In places more obscure, the best Doctors of the Church have always differed; and therefore even herein Christian people are not tied to the sense of any, but to that, which is most agreeable to the truth, plainly set forth in some other place. Serg. Paul. If all have judgement in the sense of God's Word, than it seemeth that none are to be debarred from reading the Scriptures, for fear of falling into error by so doing: whereas it is plain, that ignorant persons are perverted sometimes by the scriptures themselves. 2. Pet. 3.16. For, there are many places hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstable pervert to their own damnation. Saul. Nothing can be more against the mind of Christ, then to debar the people from reading, and hearing the Scriptures read in a known tongue. For he hath bidden, Search the Scriptures, for therein ye look to find eternal life. joh 5.39. The danger that some fall into hereby is otherwise to be provided against: viz. by diligent preaching, and opening the sense. Serg. Paul. But is not the Church all in all to Christian people. Have they not the Scriptures from the Church? and do they not by the Church come to know, that they are the Word of God? and therefore howsoever the Church shall order the reading and setting forth of the Scriptures, is it not to be held to be done very well? Saul. It is not to be denied, but that as the Woman of Samaria brought the people there to the knowledge of Christ, so we are brought by the Church, at the first, to know the Scriptures to be the Word of God: but as the same people said unto her, after that Christ had taught them: joh 4.42. now we believe, not because of thy words, but because we have heard him ourselves: So Christian people receiving the Word into their hearts, do not believe any more because of the Church, but because the Word itself working upon their consciences persuadeth them, that it is the Word of God. And as it gave the being at the first unto the Church, so the Church is to be ordered thereby, as by the superior, and not to order it, as an inferior. Serg. Paul. What is the fourteenth particular point? Saul. The fourteenth point is, that Christ only is the supreme head and foundation of his Church, neither hath any one man, nor aught to have superiority over all others in spiritual matters, in all Countries and Nations, being as it were a common Rock, whereupon all may stay themselves, nothing doubting, but that cleaning to him, they cleave to Christ, 1 Cor. 3 9 and are free from error. For, none can lay any other foundation, saving that which is laid, jesus Christ. If upon any other the Church be founded, it is not upon one, but upon all the Apostles alike, Ephes. 2.20 Gal. 2.9. and the Prophets too: if upon any as more principal they are three, james, Cephas, and john, who seemed to be Pillars. If a power spiritually to rule by opening, and shutting, binding, and losing, be committed to any over all others, neither is that committed to one Peter, but to all the Apostles: joh. 20 23. For, whose sins ye remit, saith the Lord, they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain, they are retained: and if any one hath rule over the world, as chief, it is not Peter, Gal. 2 7. but Paul: For, to Peter was committed the ministry of the circumcision only, which was but of one Nation; to Paul the minister of the uncircumcision, which was of all the rest of the world. Serg. Paul. But of Peter the Lord saith singularly: Math. 16.16. Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock will I build my Church, and to thee I give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And, follow me, and I will make thee a fisher of men. And again, Peter lovest thou me? joh. 23. Feed my sheep. By all which it should seemt, that howsoever others had power of binding and losing too, yet he was preferred, as chief, and above all the rest, after whom such another should succeed, and so another from age to age to the world's end. And this construction seemeth to be verified by the vninterrupted succession of those Bishops, who challenge to be his successors, beyond all other Bishops of any other place, seeing there is no such sucression else where to be found? Saul. If Peter had been appointed over all, I had been much to blame to withstand him to his face at Antioch, Gal. 2.14. and to go on in mine office without seeking allowance and advice from him. I do not therefore acknowledge any chief intimated in Peter above the other Apostles, but that he should be a most notable instrument of glorifying God, and propagating the Gospel, wherein he should exceed the rest, being fuller of the power of the Holy Ghost, as he was fuller of zeal towards Christ. And that last committing of the sheep and lambs to his feeding singularly, was no more than was needful after his gross fall by denying his Lord and Master, through which he might for ever have been discouraged, had not his commission been again renewed. It pleased our good God for his own glory to deal alike with him, and with me, both grievous sinners and blasphemers, that where sin had most abounded, zeal and grace might most abound; and whereas we were most darkened, through scandal that might hence arise, making us unfit to be lights of the world, to make us shine by miracles above all others, that thus no scandal to hinder the Gospel might any more appear. And as for the succession so much gloried in, it is no true succession of Apostolical men, but of political Princes, maintained by the sword, and not by the word, even as the successors of Mahomet have done. Of Apostlolike men there hath been a more true succession at Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch. Serg. Paul. But if there be no supreme power upon earth, how shall unity be maintained in the Church, seeing diverse men will be of diverse minds? and in case of difference about matter of faith, who shall be judge to end it? if no one man, how shall it come to an end? or hath the Lord left his Church in such a miserable case, as that she must needs broil in contentions without end? Saul. There was no supreme in the Primitive Church, and yet they are said to have beens all together with one mind; Act. 2.46. the Spirit which is the Author of unity, shall keep the true Church in unity, though there be no visible head over all. And as for differences that arise, we have an exemplary direction to meet in Council: Acts 15. Where being free liberty for any learned member to speak, it is not to be doubted, but that the assistance of the Holy Ghost being invocated, after reasonable debating of things controverted, all shall be swayed to hearken unto and determine with one eminent man, as they did with James. Verse 22. If not, but as in the time of Arrianisme more are for error then for the truth, it must be borne as a cross, till the Lord will be entreated to give the truth the victory again, as he did then after certain years. And thus I have related all the chief points of the faith maintained by the Protestant Church, so plaily founded upon the word of God, as that if in any of them there be error, we may cry out with the Prophet, jer. 20.7. and say, If we be deceived (O God) thou hast deceived us. There be many points more, but because they will better come under those that concern practice, I will refer them thither. Serg. Paul. What are the points concerning practice? Saul. First, as we hold that God only is to be believed in, so we make all our prayers to him only, utterly refusing to pray to Angels or Saints departed, how gracious soever they may seem to be with the Lord: And herein we have warrant from the word of God, who saith, Psal. 50.14. Call upon me in the time of trouble, and I will hear and deliver thee. Thus all the faith full, whose practice is recorded in holy Scriptures, have always done, neither hath any ever called upon any other. Serg. Paul. Did not jaacob pray to the Angel that was with him in all his peregrination, Gen. 48.16. that he would bless the two sons of joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, when he said, God before whom my fathers did walk, the God, which fed me all my life long unto this day, the Angel, which redeemed me from all evil, bless the ●ads, etc. Saul. The Angel named here, is none other but the Lord jesus: for where do we read of any other Redeemer? If he had meant an Angel, as the word is commonly understood, he would have said Angels, and not an Angel, for at all times of danger mention is made of the Angels appearing to him, as both in his journey towards Padan Aram, Gen. 28.10. Gen. 32.1. and in his return from thence. Only he, to whom his deliverance from Esau is to be imputed, wrestled with him alone, of whom the Text speaketh so plainly, as that it is most certain he was the Lord. If jaacob should have prayed to an Angel, how fare an Angel would have been from accepting of it, appeareth in the example of john and Daniel, who were both forbidden to worship an Angel. Serg. Paul. What is the second point in practice? Saul. Secondly, because God is a Spirit, which cannot be expressed by any similitude, we abhor the use of any image or similitude in divine worship: yea we refrain altogether from setting forth the divine Majesty by any image. For, both Moses chargeth the people, Deur. 4.15. that they make no image, because they saw none in the day that the Lord spoke to them; Esay 40. and the Prophet Esay speaketh of it as a thing impossible to represent God, who is infinite, by a finite resemblance; and Hahakkuk plainly calleth images teachers of lies. Hab. 2.18. Serg. Paul. But God hath sometime assumed a shape unto himself, as to Daniel he appeared like an old man, at Christ's baptism the Holy Ghost appeared in the likeness of a Dove. Why may he not then be thus pictured and set forth? Saul. The precepts of God, and not his actions, aught to be a direction to us; so that if he hath forbidden to make an image of God, it will be no good plea to allege how he hath sometime appeared, if we presume thus to picture him. Besides, all images made by man are dead things, whereas the resemblances which God hath at any time appeared by have had life and motion. And such a picture of God is any huing man, rather than a dead and dumb image. And lastly, these resemblances were not exhibited to be worshipped, but only to express in vision, what the Lord would have his people to understand. Serg. Paul. An image putteth a man in mind of God, who is apt otherwise to be carried away with by-thoughts. Saul. Shall man take upon him to be wiser than God; when he hath commanded to make no image, but to worship him in spirit, what it is in effect but to instruct him? What wilt thou, that no image be made, but only that the mind be fixed upon thee in Prayer: thou dost not so advisedly herein, because men's minds are ready to be drawn away if they have nothing to behold. It were much better therefore for them to have some image to keep the mind from wand'ring, and to stir up devotion. Oh intolerable arrogancy, that man should dare thus to correct the precepts of his Maker. Serg. Paul. Doth the command of God touch Images, or rather Heathen Idols, which are representations of false gods, which he forbiddeth to have in the first command: and then to make images of them in the second? Saul. Indeed, some are much deluded hereby, thinking that their image-making is throughly justified thus. But silly men that they are, they do little attend the vehement invectives of the Prophets, against such as attempted by image, to represent the True God, both because it is impossible, and because it is the way to let in much corruption in the worship of God. Serg. Paul. It seemeth, that the Lord was delighted in images about his Tabernacle, and Temple; for he appointed Cherubins to be made in most glorious manner, which had faces like young men: so that the garnishing of Churches with images now is not a thing so unwarrantable, and without precedent, as you would make it to be. Saul. Those images were only for ornament, and haply for some signification, but for adoration there is not the least syllable, that tendeth to show that they were: neither did they serve to resemble God, but in some sort in what state and majesty the Lord sitteth in Heaven, attended by such glorious creatures. It cannot be gathered hence, that Churches may now be garnished in like manner, because than they were much taught by outward things, as children in their nonage, but now being of full age, we are no more under beggarly and impotent rudiments. Gal. 4.9. Serg. Paul. What is the third point in practice? Saul. Thirdly, because the Lord jesus hath bidden us ask any thing in his Name; we pray always in the name of jesus Christ only to the Father, flying as sacrilege, prayers unto Saints departed. For it is the proper honour of Christ to seek unto God by his mediation. 1 joh. 2.2. If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, jesus Christ the righteous. Wherefore to use the mediation of others, it is to rob Christ of his honour. Even as if the Prince should bid us all, that have suits to the King, to come to him, and he will prefer them for us: if notwithstanding we leaving the Prince, should flock about some Courtiers to intercede for us. Serg. Paul. What is the fourth point in practice? Saul. Fourthly, we make all our prayers in a known tongue: for, I will pray with the spirit, 1 Cor. 14.15. and I will pray with my understanding also. It is a confusion, and no edification to use public service in a strange tongue, even as when a trumpet maketh an imperfect sound. Serg. Paul. What is the fifth point in practice? Saul. Fiftly, because the Lord hath forbidden vain repetitions, Math. 6. as heathenish: we do not place devotion in saying over a multitude of prayers, but in fervent and hearty praying; one, or a few prayers at a time, so as that our affections may be quickened, and not dulled hereby. Serg. Paul. What is the sixth point in practice? Saul. Sixtly, we content ourselves to confess our sins only to God, and hold it not necessary to confess all things unto the Priest, but only for necessary relief of conscience, being troubled in regard of some particulars. And generally we deny not, but acknowledge to one another, that we are sinners, and this is all that God hath commanded. jam. 5.16. Confess your sins one unto another, and pray one for another. Serg. Paul. What is the seventh point in practice? Saul. seventhly, when we have humbled ourselves for our sins, we do not take upon us to satisfy for them by punishing our bodies with whipping, or putting on Haircloth, but only by abstinence and contrition of heart, watching more carefully over our ways, that we sin no more. For Christ hath satisfied fully for us, by bearing in his body the smart due for our sins, and no more revenge is required to be taken by us upon ourselves: but that whereby our bodies may be beaten down, 1 Cor. 9 and the better kept from sinning for the time to come, such as is hearty sorrow, for so the Lord hath commanded; joel 2.13. Rend your hearts and not your garments: and fasting is often called for, but doing violence to the body, by striking till the blood cometh out, is rather to imitate Baal's priests, 1 King. 18. that launched and cut their bodies in their superstitious devotion, then to follow any approved pattern of the truly godly. Serg. Paul. But the wearing of sackcloth and ashes is commended by many approved examples, so that if you refuse this penance, it seemeth, that you are justly to blame. Saul. We must not confound, but distinguish betwixt times. Under the Law indeed these things were required, and the washing of the body, and the bringing of a sacrifice, for expiation of sin; because the Lord not content with inward contrition, would have it outwardly expressed also; such was the austerity of the Law: but under the Gospel, these are remitted: for when the Publicans and people asked john, Luke 3.9. exhorting to works of repentance, what they should do, he omitteth all these things, and speaketh only of ceasing from sin, and doing good; neither is girding with sackcloth, etc. any where else mentioned in the New Testament, such is the lenity of the Gospel. Hereupon it is said, that the burden of the Law was heavy, and such at neither we nor our fathers were able to hear: Act. 15.10. Math. 11.28. but of the yoke of the Gospel, the Lord saith: My yoke is easy, and my burden light. Serg. Paul. But are not some sins venial ● for which Christ did not, neither needed to suffer? and ought not we then by these works of penance to satisfy for them? Saul. It is an imaginaly distinction, no where founded in the Word of God: jam. 2.10. Math. 5.19. for here all sin is condemned as mortal. He that observeth all the Law, and yet faileth in one point, it guilty of all. He that breaketh the least of God's commandments, and teacheth others to do so, shall be counted the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. And what lesser sin can there be then an idle word, Math. 12.36. Mark. 7.21. and yet hereof account shall be given at the day of judgement. And what lesser than evil thoughts, and yet these defile a man, and so debatre him from heaven, forasmuch as no unclean thing shall enter therein. Serg. Paul. What is the eighth point of practice? Apoc. 22. Saul. Eighthly, we hold that we may as acceptably worship God in one place, as in another; namely, in our private worship one alone, neither have we need to go on pilgrimage to any remote place, where the bones of any Saint, or Relics are kept, or Church or Chapel in any respect supposed to be more holy, as though we should the rather obtain God's indulgence, in respect of our sins, by thus doing. For when thou wilt pray, saith the Lord, Math. 6.6. enter into thy closet. And for public assembling to the worship of God, any consecrate place is as good as jerusalem, or the Mount, where jacob was wont to worship. For all such dignity of one place above another, is plainly by Christ himself abrogated, saying: The hour cometh, when neither at jerusalem, joh. 4.20. nor in this Mountain men shall worship the Father. Serg. Paul. What is the ninth point of practice? Saul. Ninthly, if any be sick, we pray for them, but anoint them not, jam. 5. because although direction be given thus to do, yet consideration must be had of the times, anointing was then accompanied with healing, through a singular virtue upon the Presbytery, for the more confirmation of the Gospel, in the first beginnings thereof, but this hath ceased long ago, and therefore if it were now used, it would be a naked ceremony, without benefit to the diseased. Serg. Paul. What is the tenth point of practice? Saul. Tenthly, we do not use crossing or Holy Water, or any the like Ceremonies to bless us therewith: because we do not find, that they were instituted by God, but invented by men given to superstition, and therefore can have no further virtue, than such are able to give unto them. Serg. Paul. But by experience it hath been diverse times confirmed, that there is virtue in these things: for the devil hath been often hereby chased away. Saul. If any such effect hath followed upon the applying of them, it hath been through collusion of the Devil, giving way for a further advantage: namely, that superstitious people might be the more confirmed, in their confidence in such impotent ceremonies, and be drawn away from God, who only is able to curb Satan; that thus they might lie the more open unto him. Serg. Paul. What is the eleventh point of practice? Saul. Eleventh, we do not use any deceit, by keeping any thing written in the canonical Scriptures, from the knowledge of the people, or by inventing stories of things never done, to stir up devotion in them. For whatsoever the pretence may be in thus doing, we are sure that God hath pronounced them accursed, Deut. 4. that take aught from his laws, or add any thing thereunto. Serg. Paul. What is the twelfth point of practice? Saul. In the twelfth place, we do not commend wilful poverty, as a point of devotion, that is, for a man to give away all that he hath to the poor, so that himself is constrained to beg for relief. For we are not to give so, as that we may be grieved, and others eased, 2 Cor. 8.13. 1 Cor. 16.1. but every man as God hath blessed him, and as he can spare. Serg. Paul. Christ was poor, and so were the Apostles, and unto him that asked, what he was yet to do, it is prescribed, if thou wilt be perfect, Math. 19 21. go sell all that which thou hast, and give it to the poor: and according to this direction, they that had possessions, Act. 4. sold them, and brought the price, and laid it at the Apostles feet. And lastly, the poor are pronounced blessed, and woe is to the rich, and full. Saul. Christ was borne poor, the Disciples forsook all to attend upon their Apostolical Office, which necessarily required●t, and to this Office was that Young man called, who was bidden to sell and give to the poor; so that what is said to him bindeth not but in the like case: viz. when any man is called, the necessity of the Church requiring it, in an apostolic manner, to travel through diverse countries' to set forth the Gospel. Touching that example of selling and laying down the price at the Apostles feet, it was extraordinary, and only of such as joined themselves with the Apostles, for the public service of the Church, and therefore soon ceased, as appeareth, Act. 5.13. Lastly, the poor simply are not pronounced blessed, nor the rich woeful: for he saith only, Blessed are ye poor: namely, Luke 6.20. which have left all to follow, and serve me in this Office: and, We to you that are rich, that is, prefer your riches so, as that like the Young man, ye refuse to leave them, to follow me, though hereunto invited. Serg. Paul. What is the thirteenth point of practice? Saul. In the thirteenth place, we do not vow perpetual Virginity, as supposing it a point of more perfection; nor to live in Cells, Wildernesses, or Monasteries, there to spend our time separate from the world, in the nabit, and according to the rules prescribed by the instituters of such Orders, glorying to be of their Order. For we ought not to vow any thing, but what we can perform, but this we cannot, because it is not given to all. And for Monastical living, it is plainly repugnant to this. 1 Cor. 7.20. Let every man continue in that calling, wherein God hath called him. And to be named after any man, I have by the Spirit of God condemned as carnal, in the persons of those at Corinth, that held some of Paul, 1 Cor. 3. some of Cephas, etc. Serg. Paul. What is the fourteenth point of practice? Saul. In the fourteenth place, we keep Holidays in remembrance of Christ, the blessed Virgin Mary, and of the holy Apostles, as being set forth in the Word of God, for most notable and holy instruments of our best good: but other days dedicated to others we observe not: partly, lest the people should be overmuch burdened with days; and partly, because we are uncertain of the worth of such men, or the truth of such things, as in remembrance whereof these observations were taken up. Serg. Paul. What is the fifteenth point of practice? Saul. In the fifteenth place, we keep fasts of Lent, and Holy-dayes-eves, etc. according to the ancient custom of the Church of God, but we reckon not this to be any part of God's service, but a means, the better to enable us against the flesh, and to the spiritual sernice. Neither do we think the conscience defiled at such times by cating flesh: for nothing that entereth into a man defileth him, Mark. 7.20. but only that they which do thus, are worthily fined, for neglecting wholesome constituted Orders When there is any particular occasion to fast, we abstain from all food, from morning till night. Serg. Paul. What is the sixteenth point of practice? Saul. In the sixteenth place, we all both Clergy and laity are subject to our King as Supreme; and to his Officers, whom we are bound to obey under him: and if he doth tyrannize over us, if he be an Heretic, or setter up of Heresies, we resist not by force, neither by treachery seek to take his life away; but we exhort him, and pray for him, and so leave him to the Lord, who only is above him, and can justly chastise him. For thus David behaved himself towards Saul, and I have plainly set it down as a charge to all; Rom. 13.1. 1 Tim. 2. Let every soul be subject to the higher powers: and let prayers be made for all, especially for Kings, and Governors, etc. Serg. Paul. What is the seventeenth point of practice? Saul. In the seventeenth place, we proceed in that simple manner in our baptising, that our Saviour Christ hath prescribed, using neither Milk, nor Honey, nor Spittle, nor Salt, nor exorcising, but only Water, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and certain prayers, and sitting admonitions before and after. For all other things were brought in since, and so are humane and superstitious. Serg. Paul. But ye use a special vestiment, and the sign of the Cross in your baptising? Saul. We do so indeed, but not as any necessary appurtenances of Baptism; but the Surplice is put on for order as a distinguishing garment; and the Cross is made after baptisine ended, without opinion of any virtue in it, only to figure out what a base profession in the opinion of the world we betake ourselves unto, we being yet no whit ashamed of the ignominy of Christ's Cross, but rejoicing to bear every man the Cross, which he shall meet withal for his sake. Serg. Paul. What is the eighteenth point of practice? Saul. In the eighteenth place, we receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper with all ●●●erence upon nor knees, but after this ended, we do not keep the Holy bread remaining to be carried about in Procession, as having virtue to any other use, but only to seed the souls of such as are present. If any be sick, which desire it, other bread and Wine are taken; and being by the Minister consecrated, as in public it is given to the sick, and to some others with him. Moreover, we use common Bread and Wine, and not little Cakes of unleavened bread to be given whole, being first lifted up in the sight of the people, that they may worship them. For this use only of this blessed Sacrament have we from our Lord Christ, and to bring in any other use, is to presume to be wiser than he, and so to become stark fools. And thus I have faithfully related the practice of the Reformed or Protestant Church. Serg. Paul. But why is this called the Reformed Church? hath Christ any more Churches but one? Saul. No: the Church of Christ is but one, wheresoever dispersed in all the world: but this Church partly through the ambition and covetousness of the Popes of Rome, and of the rest of the chief of the Clergy, and partly through blind devotion, became very corrupt, both in doctrine, and manner of serving God, wherein having lion many years to the grief of the truly zealous and wise, who did what they could or durst to rectify things again, but without effect, at length (though very loath so to do) many without fear of bodily danger separated themselves from all society and communion with those, that still adliered to these curruptions, teaching and holding as hath be one before deelared; who notwithstanding the hot brunts of persecution, which they met withal, increased daily; whole Countries and Kingdoms, being in a short time by God's providence joined unto them. And because of this reformation, about which they made then protestation, that simply for conscience towards God, and his Truth, and only according to his written Word they thus proceeded, they were called the Reformed or Protestant Church: others wilfully cleaving to their corruptions still, and to the Pope and Roman Clergy, the chief maintainers hereof, were called the Church of Rome, or the Popish Church, or as they needs will have it, Roman Catholics. Serg. Paul. Then it seemeth, that the Church anciently one, is now become two, the one opposite to the other. Or, are they both one Church still, but divided for their contrary opinions, and manners in many things? Saul. As the Church of Christ hath been, so it still is, and ever shall be one, and not two; for it is Christ; Spouse, which is only one. I do not therefore acknowledge, but advisedly deny the Church of Rome to be a true Church of Christ: Reu. 3.1. As the Church of Sardis had a name to be aline, but was dead, so it may hold this name still, but is indeed a very carcase without a soul, by reason of the gross errors therein maintained and practised: for truth is the life of the Church. The reformed Church then is the only true Church, neither may we return again to them upon pain of damnation: but they must and shall come to us at the last; for truth is stronger than all. Serg. Paul. But the main truth is still maintained in the Church of Rome: viz. That jesus is the Son of God: and hast not thou thyself taught, 1. Cor 3. that who so buildeth upon the foundation Christ jesus, though but hay or stubble, which shall hurne, yet himself shall escape as it were through the fire? What is this, but that so Christ be cleaved unto, no erroneous opinions or practice in the service of God shall damn the soul. Saul. The Church of Rome teacheth indeed generally this truth touching Christ jesus, but in the particular explication of what they hold hereabout, they do plainly raze this foundation, and so their building is not upon the foundation Christ described in the New Testament, but imagined in their own brains. Again, although the foundation were rightly held, yet they are builders only that shall be saved, not destroyers or demolishers, as they of the Church of Rome are. Serg. Paul. Wherein do they raze the foundation Christ? Saul. In that they do not rely upon Christ only for salvation and grace. For this is the property of a foundation, to bear up all the building alone, if it be the only foundation, as I have taught, that Christ is. If then the building rest partly upon some other foundation, this is in effect razed, because though this be sound, yet the other upon which it partly standeth being deceitful and unsound, when that shall fail, the whole building cannot but come down. Serg. Paul. It seemeth then, that Christ is the foundation to them only that rest upon him alone; and that they which together with him rely upon any thing else, are in effect gone from the foundation, and so shall have no more benefit of it, than they that hold not Christ at all. Can you prove the Roman Catholics to be such? Saul. There is nothing more plain to them that will understand. For first, when Christ only is relied upon, and so made the only soundation, his passions alone are held to be fully satisfactory for all punishments due to us for all our sins both temporal and eternal. Secondly, all merit whereby we become worthy of salvation is held to be in him only. Thirdly, His mediation only to God the Father, is rested upon to obtain any benefit or help in the time of need. Fourthly, The beginning, progress and perfection of all grace is imputed to him only through the working of his Spirit, and nothing to a man's self. But the contrary to all these are maintained in the Church of Rome. Serg. Paul. Declare this more particularly, and first, that they rely not upon his passions only as fully satisfactory. Saul. They say that he hath satisfied for all eternal punishments in hell, but not for temporal: for these are left to us to be satisfied for, partly here by acts of penance, and partly hereafter in purgatory. And that there are certain lesser sins called venial, for which we ourselves must satisfy. Flatly contrary to Saint john, who saith, 1. joh 1.6. the blood of jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin. And I have taught that Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us: Gal. 3.13. Now this curse did as well extend to temporal as eternal punishments, witness Moses his dilating upon it, Deut. 28. and levit. 26. throughout which Chapters he showeth that the curse coming by sin is temporal. Serg. Paul. If Christ had satisfied herein for us, were it not injustice in God to put his to so much smart again daily, by sicknesses, losses, ignominies, and persecutions in the world? Saul. It were injustice indeed, if our sins being forgiven and cleansed away in Christ's blood, he should still require us to be temporally panished. Luke 23.16. This were just pilate's justice. I find no fault in this man, I will therefore scourge him, and let him go. God forbidden, that we should once think the most righteous Lord to be such in his proceed. It is to be understood therefore, that the smart imposed upon us here is only either for our trial, or for our correction in love, as parents are wont to deal with their children. Serg. Paul. What do they hold touching merit? Saul. That Christ's death and passion alone, are not the meritorious cause of our salvation, but the blessed Virgin Mary, and the holy Apostles, and other Saints which have suffered death for the Gospel, have also merited for us; and that there is merit in the sacrifice of the Mass, extended to all both quick and dead; and in the works of the regenerate through which they become worthy of heaven. Serg. Paul. The Saints are so near unto Christ, as that it seemeth to be all one to ascribe merit unto their passions, and to hi●● if they were divers from him, it were to lay another foundation indeed. Hast not thou written to the same effect saying, Col. 1.24. I fulfil therest of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body which is his Church? And touching the Mass, and good works of the regenerate, whatsoever virtue is ascribed hereunto, it tendeth the more to the magnisying of Christ's merit, which is able to give virtue to other things to m●rit also. Saul. These are plausible reasons indeed to deceive the simple, but he which hath any understanding can consider, that by the like reason the sun, moon and stars, might safety be associated unto God in divine worship, for they are near unto him also. And for that saying of mine, if any other part of my writing, or of the whole Bible did sound to the seconding of such an acception, it might well be taken so: but considering, that I have plainly professed elsewhere, that Paul is nothing, and Aposlo nothing, 1. Cor. 3. Phil. 3.9. and that Christ's righteousness is that only wherein I desire to be found. Me thinks what I have said to the Colossians should not be wrested so, but be simply taken of my sufferings, in going about to do good unto the Church, which I call Christ's sufferings, because undergone for him, who taught me sometime, Act. 9 that the persecuting of his members was the persecuting of himself. Lastly, where there is any such extent of the virtue of Christ's passion to make other things meritorious certain, it is good to acknowledge and extol it, but out of this case, as it is in the matter of the Mass, and of good works, it is a plain derogating from Christ's merit the only sure foundation, and a razing of it. That there is no merit in these things hath been sufficiently showed heretofore. Serg. Paul. But did not the blessed Virgin Mary merit any thing for us by those passions, which she had together with Christ in her soul, when he hung upon the Cross? Saul. I am glad that you put me in mind again to speak of this, that the abomination of the Romish religion might the more appear. For indeed they make her above all the Saints, not only a mediatrix of intercession, but of Redemption also: affirming, that her standing by when the Lord suffered upon the cross, full of sorrow to be hold it, was a joining with him in our Redemption: and therefore, where as it is said of Christ, he shall break the Serpent's head, they turn it she; and whereas the Prophet saith in his person, Gen. 3. I have trodden the winepress alone, there was no man with me, Esa. 63.3. they say there was no man indeed, but that blessed woman: yea and so fare be the Jesuits gone in their dotage about her meriting, as that they make comparisons betwixt her milk and Christ's blood, ascribing as much to the one, as to the other, as appeareth in the book called, The jesuits Gospel. Serg. Paul. Touching his mediatorship, do they rely upon any other Mediators; Saul. Yes that they do, for they make both the Virgin Mary, and all the Saints departed mediators unto God for them in all their common prayers, desiring them to pray for them, and sometimes as though they had the disposing of heaven, that they would confer upon them the Kingdom of heaven. Serg. Paul. Although Christ be the only Mediator of Redemption, yet there are more mediators of intercession, for we all must pray one for another. It seemeth therefore that this doth no more raze the foundation, then desiring the Elders of the Church to pray for us in the time of sickness. Saul. I have already spoken enough to show the error of this practice. It shall suffice therefore only to add thus much more, that this distinction betwixt a Mediator of Redemption & of intercession in heaven is vain: for as Christ is the only propitiation for our sins, 1 john 2.2. Rom. 8.34. so he only at the right hand of God maketh intercession for us. If any else do the like it is concealed from us, neither are we bidden to come by them, but altogether by the Son unto the Father. Moreover, we cannot come by any in heaven unto God, but we must ascribe unto them the divine attribute of omniscience● whereby they know all things though never so remote from them, which is to rob the Lord of his peculiar honour, as if Majesty or Supreme power were ascribed to any of the king's subjects. Serg. Paul. Proceed new to the last point: what do they hold touching the beginning and proceed of Grace? Saul. They teach, that there is in every man free will, whereby he can desire, and do preparative works unto grace, which the Lord beholding hath mercy upon him, and enlargeth him, being before in prison and bound as it were with chains, and then he becometh able to do according to his desire, that is, perfectly to fulfil God's Commandments, for which he shall finally have the reward of eternal glory bestowed upon him. Serg. Paul. And have they not good ground for this in the example of Cornelius, Act. 10. whose alms and prayers done before his conversion were acceptable to God, so as that hereupon Peter was sons unto him, and the holy Ghost was bestowed upon him? Saul. God had wrought in the heart of Cornelius before this, Act. 10.2. for he is said to have been a devout man and one that feared God, which could not have been spoken of him, if he had been a mere natural man. Therefore from his example no good argument can be made to prove preparative works in natural men. He had doubtless so much grace, and knowledge, as was incident to the faithful before Christ's coming in the flesh, only he wanted the knowledge of his person in particular already come, to preach which, and that withal he might receive the holy Ghost, Peter was sent unto him, Serg. Paul. But how doth this raze the foundation Christ? Saul. Because upon Christ all our well desiring and doing doth depend. We cannot think a good thought as of ourselves, but all our sufficiency is of God: 2. Cor. 3.5. joh. 15.5. 1. Cor. 1. Gen. 6.5. and the Lord hath plainly said, without me ye can do nothing, and touching a natural man, the wisdom of God is foolishness unto him, all the imaginations of his bear't are only evil continually. To teach that then, whereby a man shall be brought in part to rely upon himself, is in effect to disannul Christ, the alone ground of our well doing and desiring. Serg. Paul. I am well satisfied by this, touching your first reasen, proving, that the Roman Church is no true Church of God, me thought you game me an hint of a further reason, in saying that buildert only upon the foundation Christ should be saved, and not demolishers. Can you prove the Roman Catholics to be demolishers? Saul. You did not conceive amiss: for this word building is very notable in the text: Now that they are not builders, but demolishers I make it plain thus: He only buildeth upon a foundation, that erecteth somewhat upon it, though it be but sleighty & weak, but if standing upon this foundation he breaketh in pieces, and disannulleth the chief materials of the building, he buildeth not but demolisheth. And thus doth the Roman Church, for bearing herself upon the foundation Christ, she teacheth to transgress God's Commandments, and to proceed contrary to his ordinances, which are the chief materials of the spiritual building. Serg. Paul. Wherein do they commend transgressing against God's Laws and Ordinances. Saul. In exciting the people to get them images, and to bow before them in prayer plainly against the second commandment, which they seeing into, have therefore put this commandment out of their Catechisms: in appointing the Sacrament of Lords Supper to be administered to the people in one kind only against Christ's institution: in forbidding the people to read the Scriptures, and commending ignorance, as the mother of devotion, against that express charge, search the Scriptures: in appointing service in an unknown tongue, 1. Cor. 14. being the representation of Babel, that by reason of strange tongues could not be built, for so hereby such an uncertain sound is made, as that no edification cometh of it: in absolving subjects from their allegiance to their lawful Prince: in dispensing with treasons, murders, perjuries, and incestuous marriages: in maintaining lying, under the names of equivocations and mental reservations: in condemning marriage in some sort of people more than fornication: in exempting the Clergy from the power of the civil Magistrate, and setting up the Pope above all both spiritual and temporal things: all which who knoweth not to be flatly against God's Commandments. Serg. Paul. Yet there are many things wherein they are builders, in that they make many prayers, and condemn drunkenness, pride, uncleanness, oppression, etc. and exhort unto the contrary virtues. Saul. Those things which have been already spoken being so, they cannot be counted builders any more than notorious wicked persons, who notwithstanding their praying and some good cutward seeming things in them, are said to be destroyers of the Law; for so the Prophet complaineth, Psal. 119.126. It is time for thee Lord to put to thy hand, for men destroy thy Law. How is this but by transgressing? and if simply to transgress be a destroying of the Law, much more to teach and maintain transgressing, and to oppose and destroy such as dare not herein offend God, as the Romanists do by fire and sword. Serg. Paul. I cannot see how they can defend themselves, if these be their courses, but that they must come under that censure. He that breaketh the least of these commandments, Mat. 5.19. and teacheth others to do so, shall be counted the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Have you any thing else against them to prove that they build not, but demolish and destroy? Saul. There is one thing more, which may be reckoned a chief thing in this building, and that is faith. For when the foundation Christ is rightly laid, it is builded upon him by faith and love, these in short comprehending the whole edifice: so that he which buildeth these two, is indeed a builder, and shall be saved, though he buildeth withal hay and stubble of curious speculations, frothy doctrine, or erroneous conceits, about points more mystical, as his weak judgement mis-leadeth him. Now love is the fulfilling of the Law: and herein I have showed that the Romanists build not, but destroy: and as I have showed touching that, so I will further declare, to aching faith, that they build not by teaching it rightly, but destroy by putting true faith down, and bringing in an unsound and vain faith? Serg. Paul. How shall that appear? Saul. Very easily. For a sound faith is to believe steadfastly, without doubting, in regard of the defects in us, casting ourselves upon God's mercy in jesus Christ for salvation, because he hath promised, and is able to effect it. For Abraham's faith, which is set forth for an example of a sound faith, is thus described. He doubted ●●t, Rom. 4.10. neither considered the deadness of his own body, etc. See the place, Rom. 4. But they maintain, that there is no assurance to be had by faith, but only by hope, to the lift moment of our lives, and that we cannot but be doubtful, without special revelation, in regard of out own corruptions, through which we may fall away when we have gone furthest in grace, flatly against that which is said to have been done by Abraham our pattern. Serg. Paul. This doth not seem to be a destroying of faith, but humility for a man's own unworthiness. Saul. They pretend humility indeed, but we be to that humility that denyeth the true instrument, which only can help us to heaven, and taketh a counterfeit in stead of it. For they teach, that faith is only to believe the things contained in the holy Scriptures, and that as the Church believeth them, without knowing in particular what these things are, jam. 2. or applying them to a man's own soul in particular. Which if it be true faith, than the devil hath true faith: for he believeth thus, and goeth a little further, because he understandeth what he believeth. Serg. Paul. Is it not then a sound faith, unless it be steadfast? oh how uncomfortable is this to many poor souls that cannot attain to any such certainty? Saul. It is therefore to be understood, that though this be the virtue of a sound faith to assure the soul; yet it is often a long time, before a believer cometh to this. For even as the imp must stand long in the stock, before it closeth with it, and becometh very fast; so this assurance cometh after long experience, and continuance in Christ by faith. Serg. Paul. I am resolved now, that this Romish Church greatly erreth and dangerously too: but there are many in that Church, that know not the depth of these things: but only believe a Purgatory, and pray for the dead, and beseech the Saints departed to help them, and use crossing, and Holy Water, and receive the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament, as Christ's real body and blood, adoring it therefore with many the like superstitions. Is there any great danger to them, being ignorantly misleaded, and doing herein but as they are persuaded they ought to do? Saul. There is no less danger to them, Deut. 13. then unto their Leaders, no more than there was unto such as were seduced to idolatry. For as they also must dye for it without all partiality: so the simply misled Papist cannot but expect ruin with this Leader, Math. 15.14. For if the blind lead the blind, they shall both fall into the ditch. Only the judgement of the Leader shall be greater, especially if in sinister respects, his conscience being convicted by the truth, he doth yet persist in upholding error, as experience hath taught that many of them have done. Serg. Paul. It standeth with good reason that they which wittingly prefer error, should bear the burden of it: but methinks such as are misled by them, following their conscience, should not perish: for many of them serve God according to their profession with a good heart. Saul. Error is of that nature, as that it is damnable in whomsoever. First, because it is contrary to truth, which sanctifieth and maketh free. For so the Lord hath prayed, joh. 17.17. joh. 8.32. Sanctify them by thy Truth, and hath pronounced, the truth shall make you free. Wherefore contrariwise error polluteth and enthralleth, and so debarreth from entering heaven, Reuel. 22. because no unclean thing shall enter there; and the bondwoman shall be cast out with her children. Secondly, Gal. 4. because it is a judgement upon those only that perish, and are damned; to have their eyes blinded, and to be given over to delusions, as I have showed, 2 Cor. 4.4. 2 Thes. 2.11. Thirdly, because God is truth, and the Devil is a liar; and therefore by error the mind is out of the way to God, and can never enjoy him, but is in the right way to the Devil. Serg. Paul. Any one of these reasons is sufficient to prove their woeful case. But may there not be any means found out to reconcile these two Religions, by yielding somewhat on both sides, and by laying aside austerity and strangeness, and by putting on lenity and familiarity one towards another? Saul. In all the particular points of difference I have made it plain, that we are in the truth: as therefore if we would not go from God, we must not go from any of these things either in faith, or practice● for ●hat were but to yield to accompany them in the way to perdition, and not to do any thing advantageous to their souls. Wherefore they must yield unto us, and as we have already done, come out of this Babel of errors, and superstitions, if ever they will enjoy true peace and comfort to Godward. In the mean season, if gentle and persuasive means would do them any good, they have them in greater measure than they could expect, considering their forepast cruelty, and rigour: but for familiarity and bosom friendship, it is expressly against that charge; Tit. 3.10. An Heretic after once or twice admonition avoid. Serg. Paul. I thank you most hearty for this light which you have given unto me, and I thank God, who sent you unto me, by whose grace I resolve to live and dye in the faith which you have declared, and after no other manner to worship God. And for this you shall no more be called Saul: but because I count you my best friend in the world, and so another very self, you shall be called after mine own name Paul, because I know not otherwise how to express how nearly to my heart I have placed you for your good instructions this day given unto me. Elymas. Most excellent and worthy Governor: I am sorry to hear that a man of your place, and wisdom, should have his ears and mind so much abused, by the seducing words of an Archhereticke. Is your Church the only True Church of God, and is the Church of the Catholics a false Church, or none at all? (Oh God) what will not these men persuade unto? Is it not manifest to all the world, that ye are a company of Heretics, and Schismatics, and a Church but of yesterday, or since Luther's time at the most? Was God without a Church, till your faction began? What impudency is this to abuse Noble Governors of countries' thus, by drawing them from the Catholic Church of Rome, that hath ever been famous through the world, for constant cleaving to the Christian Religion. Paul. Thou bewitching Sophister, and beguiler of simple souls, is is known to all men, that this is your usual false slander of our Church, and the chief string to your Bow: so that when ye have nothing else to faith, your refuge still is the old Religion, the old Religion: what will ye forsake the old Religion for a new? But to follow you and beat you with your own weapon. Be it known, that the reformed Religion, is the old Religion indeed, and the present religion of the Church of Rome a new religion; of which this noble person present shall be judge, seeing you have provoked me to enter these lists with you. Elymas. I am content that either he or any man shall judge herein between us, and if you can prove what you have s●yd, I will lose the day. Paul. I prove it therefore thus. The Religion commended to us by God's Spirit in the holy Scriptures is the old Religion; and that whereof men of later times are authors is new in comparison of it: But the reformed is thus commended to us, as I have already fully declared, and the Religion of the present Church of Rome is from men of latter times. Ergo. Elymas. Neither is the Protestant Religion commended in the holy Scriptures, nor the Roman Catholic Religion invented by man since. For, as much as you brag of the Scriptures, you have not one plain sentence in your own Bible for any one point of your Religion, without adding, altering or glozing upon it, as is your usual manner. And for our Religion, show if you can, when and by whom those points which you call errors, were invented: for we hold, that all things have ever since the Apostles times been thus. Paul. I marvel that you and your fellow, whosoever he was, that wrote the book blasphemously entitled, The gag for the Gospel, are not ashamed so boldly to charge us, that we have not one plain place of Scripture. What is that saying of our Lord, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Mat. 4.10. Do not both the words and the circumstances plainly make for us, denying to fall down and worship any but God, otherwise Christ had not spoken so appositè to Satan, bidding him to fall down and worship him. What is that command? Thou shalt not make to thyself any graved image, etc. And again, Deut. 4.15. Take good heed unto yourselves, for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spoke unto you in Ho●eb, lest you corrupt yourselves, and make you a graved image, the similitude of any figure, etc. What is this saying? There is one God, 1. Tim. 2.4. 2. Cor. 3.5. Phil. 2.13. and one Mediator betwixt God and man, the man Christ jesus: and this, We are not sufficient of ourselves to think a good thought as of ourselves: and this, God worketh in you the will and the deed of his own good pleasure; with many more texts before alleged, which I spare to repeat; So that we may most truly affirm, that there is no one tenant of our Church, but we have a plain place of Scripture for it: but it may truly be retorted upon you, that you have not one plain place for any one of your tenants or practices, so that ye are fain miserably to wrest and strain any text hence alleged, and when that will not do, to fly to Apocryphal books, traditions, and ridiculous fables. Elym. Are all these sayings in your Bible, if they be, it is more than I know, but sure I am, that there are sentences plainly teaching the same that we do. For what else is that saying of our Saviour; This is my body, and, my flesh is meat indeed, and blood, drink indeed: and, upon this rock will I build my Church: and, to thee will I give the Keys of the Kingdom of heaven: and again, Peter feed my sheep. And touching the Church, Math. 18.17. 1 Tim 3.15. If he heareth not the Church, let him be to thee as an Ethnic: and, the Church is the ground and pillar of truth. Touching other points we need none other Scripture, seeing to the Church it is promised; joh. 16.13. When he is come which is the spirit of truth, he will lead you into all truth. Wherefore the Church cannot err, and whatsoever is by her propounded, as matter of faith, or practice, must needs then be right: But be it known unto you, that we want not plain places for particular points. Touching justification. jam. 2.24. A man is not justified by faith only, but by works. Touching prayer for the dead. There is a sin unto death, I say not, that ye should pray for it. 1 joh. 5.16. jam. 5.14. Luke 7.47. Math. 25. Touching extreme unction. They shall pray for him and anoint him in the name of the Lord. Touching the merit of works. Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much: and, Come ye blessed, etc. for I was hungry, and ye fed me, etc. For time would fail me, if I should go on to allege all the places, that plainly make for us. Paul. You do well so to slieglit our evidences brought out of the holy Scriptures, because they are so plain, that they cannot be answered; neither indeed do your sect much acquaint yourselves with the Bible: for there are some students in Divinity of many years, that never read the Bible. To your places therefore: How doth the speech of our Saviour make for Transubstantiation, without altering or adding? It is meat indeed, we confess, but he saith not, is meat for the body, nor yet in explaining himself afterwards hath he one word intimating a bodily substance that he would give to be fed upon, but the clean contrary, for he saith, joh. 6.63. the flesh profiteth nothing, my words are spirit and life. Again, for those sayings unto Peter, there is nothing plain for Peter's supremacy, for his bearing up all, as a foundation, and much less for his pretended successors the Bishops of Rome. For plainly to teach these things had been to have said, upon thee and thy successors will I build my Church, and to thee and to him that shall succeed thee in thy Bishopric at Rome, I will give authority over all others. But so far is the Lord from this, that when there was just, occasion offered upon the motion of the mother of Zebedees' children, to declare the supreme, & when they contended about it amongst themselves, he speaketh no word to settle the supremacy upon any one, but altogether to stop the mouth of any from once challenging it. But I have spoken sufficiently of this before, so that I shall not need to add any thing about his commission to feed his sheep. It is marvel that when all chief points of faith are so plainly expressed, that this which is so much stood upon, as inferior to none, should be so obscurely passed over. Touching the Church there is nothing plainly spoken, that it shall be always visible, but only it may be employed, that as long as there are Christians to do those mutual offices of reprooving one another for sin, there shall be a discipline exercised in the Church how corrupt soever, for the chastisement of such as are complained of, as manifest transgressors of the Law the just proceed whereof, notwithstanding the corruptions, are of force to the terror of malefactors. For that saying, tell the Church, at that time had reference to a most corrupt Church of Scribes and Pharisees, whose authority was yet by the Lord established, saying, Math. 23.1. whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do. So that from hence nothing more can be rightly taught, no not by inference, but that there shall always be some visible Church good or bad, which we also acknowledge. But in case that there be two such Churches together, who doubteth forsaking that which is corrupt, to go to the best and soundest. Touching error, from which you seek to exempt your Church, because the Church is called the ground and pillar of truth, what is this to the present Church of Rome, the sink of most gross errors and superstitions. The true Church indeed, such as it was in those days founded upon the Prophets and Apostles, Christ himself being the chief corner slone, Ephes. 2.20. was the ground of truth, because therein the truth was preserved and upheld, and wheresoever it is so at this day, that Church is likewise the ground and pillar of truth. But it doth not necessarily follow, that wheresoever the Church is, whether sound or corrupt, it is the ground of truth, for so much as the truth held and eleaved unto in all things maketh the Church the pillar and ground of truth, and not the Church that to be true whatsoever she shall think good to propound. For otherwise Christ, the Prophets & Apostles, with their dictates, institutions, and writings should not be a ground unto men succeeding and inferior to them, but these men should be a ground unto them, which were absurd. And the same I answer to that promise of the spirit, it was peculiar to the Apostles and special instruments stirred up for those times, to be so guided into all truth, as not to err, because what came from them was to be a ground to the faithful in all succeeding ages, and it is most palpably wrested to your Church now. And if your fundamental places be thus impertinently alleged, the rest will fall without any labour, at the least (most worthy Sergius) you may be able to judge hereof by that, which hath been already spoken in laying open the faith of the reformed Church. Serg. Paul. When these places were first alleged by Elymas, I thought it impossible to answer them and therefore did begin to incline to think better of the Roman Church, than you had persuaded me: but now I see that they are but the painting and colouring of a deformed face, being without all true beauty. And for the places omitted, I have them so freshly in my memory, since you resolved them unto me, at that I am fully reselued, that they are but wrested and wrung by the adversary to sorne his turn. Elym. But by your favour (sir) nothing hath yet been said to one place plainly distinguishing betwixt venial and mortal sins, and concluding prayer for some dead, viz. that sin not unto death, but are penitent, before they die. Paul. You do well to recall that again, which I thought not worth the answering. How can it be spoken of mortal and venial sins? Is he that hath sinned a mortal sin to be given over then, as a desperate Reprobate, and not to be prayed for any more? What is this, but to condemn Peter himself, and David, and Manasseh, etc. as unworthy to be prayed for? If your distinction of mortal and venial sins have no better ground but this, it is set up altogether upon the sands. And for praying for any dead, nothing can be more absurd, then to allege this: for he doth not note out the time of continuing, or breaking off from sin, as making his case that hath sinned, desperate, or reparable by the prayers of others, by reason of this circumstance, but plainly in itself, for he saith, There is a sin unto death. And again, There is a sin not unto death; that is, in plain English, there is a sin, which who so committeth it, shall dye therefore, without all hope of life, whatsoever prayers should be made for him: but there is sin also, the proper sequel and wages whereof is death; yet not so necessarily, but remission and life may be obtained notwithstanding. And if it be taken in this sense, there is the consent of other places to confirm it, as that. All sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, but he that sinneth against the Holy Ghost, shall never be forgiven, of such a sin Saul seemeth to have been guilty, when the Lord forbiddeth Samuel to pray any more for him. But take it of praying for such as dye repeneantly, and where can you find any to second it? Serg. Paul. I see it is in vain for you (Elymas) to hold argument with him any longer by the testimonies of holy Scripture: preceded therefore to your plea of antiquity, for therein ●o● may happen to put him down indeed. Paul. It must needs be so (Sir) as you have said; for whatsoever flourishes they make, their conscience telleth them, that the Scriptures are against them, seeing they can no more abide them, than the ●●●tle the daylight. Why else do they keep them locked up in an unknown tongue? Why do they condemn our translations, as heretical, and allow only of Jerome's translation: for it were a mad part for them to condemn and forbid that, which maketh on their side. This their cracking therefore of the Scriptures is but a fruit of their late impudence, putting them on to undertake the proof of any thing, that can bepropounded. But they are very confident, that we cannot demonstrate in particular the time and persons, when and by whom their false doctrines were broached, and their superstitions brought in, yet I fear as little to enter the lists with him about this argument, as about the other. Elymas. And I doubt not but to put you to shame enough in so doing: for the most ancient Orthodox Fathers of the Church have always taught the same that we do; and have often mentioned the particulars of our devotion; which ye falsely call superstition. Which being so, I weigh not all your places of Scripture, if you had as many more; nor your colourable answers to such as have been by me alleged: for the customs of the Church, and traditions delivered from age to age, are of the same authority with the holy Scriptures; and they are rather to be regulated hereby, as being certain, than these by them, speaking as every man listeth to wrest and turn them. Paul. It is a false slander by you laid upon the Scriptures, that they are uncertain, and a burdening of Christian people, for which you shall answer, to obtrude traditions thus unto them, as I have before declared. To pass that over therefore here. Who can tell, whether the ancient Fathers in those passages, wherein they have made some mention of some practices by you used, were made to speak so by some audacious forger, seeing there are so many supposititious writings falsely fathered upon so many imaginary Fathers, that never were in rerum natura, and such purging and altering of ancient Writings hath been made of late by the authority of the Council of Trent. Moreover, it is possible that through the neglect of Historians, or wittingly in favour of your abuses, the original and first springing up of them may be concealed. But if not, few men are read in History, neither is history reading necessary to salvation; and therefore it maketh not any whit the more on your side, though they cannot precisely set down, when and by whom your heresies and superstitions were brought in: even as Mahumetisme were no whit the more approvable, though the original thereof were unknown. For by this reason the Heathen priests of old sought to maintain the credit of their idolatries, challenging the Christians for embracing a new Religion. It is a poor shift, when any thing is particularly disproved by the Word of God, to cavil about the beginning of it, as if the day were lost, if that could not be done: for if the leaks of a Ship, or the decays of an House be apparent, if corruptions within, or blemishes upon the body be made manifest: what availeth it to approve that they are no decays or blemishes, by pleading, But can any man tell, when these first began? Elym. Our errors, as you call them, are not so evident yet, as your comparisons. If you cannot therefore show their beginning, it is plain, that they were delivered from the Apostles, and it is heresy and impiety in you to impugn them. Paul. Doth the same fountain send forth salt water and sweet? Doth the same mouth speak contradictories? for so certain is it, that these things cannot be derived from the Apostles, seeing they are altogether against them. But because you vige it so much, I will set down the time and age of every part of your Religion, that the novelty of it may appear to all the world. And first I will begin with the chief and head of all your errors the Pope's headship. This was first established in a Council at Rome of seventy two Bishops, thirty Presbyters, and three Deacons, in the time of Boniface the third, Anno Dom. 607. Plat. in vita Bonis. 3. being then obtained of Phocas, who came to the Empire by murdering Mauritius, his Master: and therefore to provide the better for himself, he was willing by granting the supremacy over all, to join unto him the Pope of Rome. Conc. Constant. the eight general Council. Afterwards there was a Council held at Constantinople, in the days of Pope Adrian, under Basilius the Emperor, who slew his associate Michael, Anno Dom. 871. Wherein none were admitted, but such as subscribed to the Pope's Supremacy: for Adrian had curried favour with murdering Basili●s, as Bonisace had before done with Phocas. Lastly, there was a Council at Lions in the days of Gregory the tenth, under the Reign of Michael Paleologus Emperor, Anno Dom. 1273, wherein the Emperor confirmed the Pope's Supremacy, that he might the more strengthen himself by him also: for he was an usurper, and murderer, by the slaughter of Theodorus committed to his custody attaining to the Empire. He was so abhorred by the Grecians for yielding herein to Gregory, that when he was dead, they would not suffer his body to be buried amongst other Christians. Neither was this suprerr acie set up by any but these persons infamous for murder, except Pipin and Charles his son, who attained the Kingdom of France, by the deposition of Chelpericke the lawful King. Elym. Are you not ashamed thus to seek to blindfold men's eyes? Did not Constanine the Great, long before this, finding that of right the primacy belonged to Saint Peter's Chair, Socr. lib. 2. c. 20. establish it in the council of Nice? And was not julius' Bishop of Rome appointed by the Sardian Council to be judge of appeals? Anno 35●. And did not the Bishops of Rome long before Boniface, exercise their jurisdiction in deposing Patriarches? and were they not acknowledged by the ancient Doctors to be supreme? Paul. You may well be ashamed, I am sure, once to speak of the Council of Nice, seeing the Pope's plea founded hereupon, was so fully disproved in the sixth African Council assembled at Carthage, Hist. Magd. Cent. 5. ●. ●. Anno ' Dom. 402. in the days of Honorius and Theodosius the second, consisting of 217 Bishops, lasting six years together. For thither did both Sozimus, Boniface, and Celest●nus, Popes, send their Legates, requiring to have the Supremacy confirmed, according to the Council of Nice: the Decrees of that Council were searched, the Copies of them kept in the Register of Alexandria, and Constantinople were sent for, and, no such thing being f●und, it was decreed, that no appeal should henceforth be made from Africa to Rome, and this plea was condemned, as a forgery. And in a council somewhat before this at Meliuis●●● it was decreed, that no man should make appellation to Bishops beyond the sea, but in case his own Bishop did him wrong, he should appeal to a council of African Bishops. In the third African or Carth: Council it was decreed, that the Bishop of Rome should be called the Bishop of the first seat, but not the High Priest, or Prince of Priests, Anno 399. In the sixth Constantinopolitan council, Anno 681 under Constantius, Pegonatus, Pope Sergius his Legate being present, and subscribing, it was decreed, Can. 4●. that the Patriarch of Constantinople was of equal authority with the Bishop of Rome, though Sergius being offended, refused afterwards to subscribe. I could reckon up many more passages in counsels, and worthy author's writings, and preachings, of ancient times, plainly oppugning the Pope's supremacy, but these shall suffice. Touching julius, he was a worthy Prclate and protector of the wronged, and therefore so set up in the Sardian Council, intending the dignifying of his person, not of his Sea. For the exercise of this jurisdiction, and learned men's ascriptions, you know, that à facto ad in's non valet consequentia; and in the most learned being under the Bishop of Rome there might be some flattery. Serg. Paul. I did not think, but that the Bishop of Rome bade ever been High Priest over all the Clergy, but it seemed ever to me an usurpation in him to domincre over Kings and Emperors: but now I perceive that this supremacy even over the Clergy is but a crazy foundation, with much tugging and opposition, in time climbed up into; so that there is enough spoken to disprove his principality over Kings also, seeing this yields an argument à minore ad maius. Proceed therefore to some other point. Paul. After the Supremacy, images were brought into the Church to be worshipped, against which the Emperor Leo setting himself, sent his Mandate to Pope Gregory the third to abolish them. Gregory calleth a great Council at Rome, about Anno 720, wherein the Emperor was therefore excommunicated & deprived, & together with him Anastatius Patriarch of Constantinople. But soon after Constantinus Coprony●nus called a Council in Constantinople, of 338 Bishops, Anno 755, wherein all setting up and worshipping of images is condemned as heathenish: and the Father's writing against them are alleged: as Epiphanius, Eusebius, Gregorius Theel. Athanasius, Amphilochius, Chrysostomus and Theodorus A●cyra. After this there was a Council held at Nice in Bythinia under Irene mother to Constantine, Anno 788, who most unnaturally put out her son's eyes, and so made him to end his days in misery: in which assembly of 350 Bishops, it was decreed, that the images of Christ, and of the blessed Virgin Mary should not only be set up in places of adoration: but also be adored, and woe shipped, because the honour of an Image doth redound to ●●m, that is there by represented. But mark upon what grounds chiefly they proceeded thus. Pope Adrian wrote his Letters, wherein he telleth, how Constantine being a Leper, and advised to bathe himself in the blood of children, which he was loath to do, had an apparition of Peter and Paul, bidding him send for Sylvester the Pope; who coming to him, and by the images of these two holy Apostles which he had; making known to Constantine, (that at the fight of them, said, these were they) who had appeared to him, he baptised him, and his Leprosy was cleansed. Now all this is a mere fable, as appeareth by Eusebius, who writing the life of Constantine, showeth that Constantine was always free from Leprosy, and baptised by Eusebius it. Nicomedia. Another great motive to them to stand for images, was a foolish tale of a Monk, who said that the Devil tempted him continually to uncleanness, and would not cease, unless he did give over worshipping the image of the Virgin Mary. The worshipping of images was again confirmed at Constantinople, in the time of A●rian the second, Pope of Rome, Basilius being Emperor. But between these two Counsels, there was one held at Frankfort, by the appointment of Charles the Great, Anno 794, to which the Pope's Legates came and offered the Decree of the last Council of Nice to be confirmed: but howsoever something in the Council of Constantinople against images were disliked; namely, the forbidding of them to be made, yet the Decree of that Nicene Council touching the worshipping of image● was more condemned, and that therefore judged worthy the name neither of a Catholic, or Occumenicke Council. Elymas. You are greatly mistaken to refer the beginning of images in the Church to the time of Pope Gregory the third: for then the heretical Emperor attempted the abolishing of them, which argueth, that they were in use long before. Paul. They were in use indeed amongst Heretics, such as Simon Magus, of whom Theodoret, and Augustine report, that he offered his own, and the image of his Concubine to be worshipped; and the Cretians so much spoken against by Saint Paul to Titus, are said by Jerome to be the first that brought images into the Church, Iren. lib. 2 c. 6. and the filthy Gnesticks worshipped the image of Christ: but Catholic Doctors have ever anciently inveighed against them. Eusebius Bishop of Neocesarea saith, that it cometh from the Heathen: for Heliogabilus, Alexander Severus, and Adrianus, Enseb. lib. 7. c. 18 Heathen Emperors, had first the images of Abraham, Moses, and Christ in their Chapels. Epipb. Epist. ad job. 〈◊〉. Epiphanius wrote an Epistle to john Bishop of jerusalem, against the bringing of images into Churches; and he is famous for renting in pieces an image painted upon a cloth, behind a Church door: and long ago in a Council held at Eliberis a town of Spain, Can. 36. Can. 60. it was decreed, that nothing that is worshipped should be pictured on a wall; and if any were slain in breaking images down, he should be put into the Catalogue of Martyrs. This Council was in the time of Constantine the Great. In the Council of Constantinople before spoken of, many sentences of the Fathers were alleged against images, amongst which that of Eusebius Pamphili is most remarkable. Constantia the Empress had sent unto him for the image of Christ, upon which occasion he write●h thus unto her. I would gladly know, what image of Christ you inquire for, if it be of the true, and unchangeable nature bearing the Character and engraven similitude of the Father, I hope that you are sufficiently instructed, that as no man knoweth the Father, except the Son; so no man knoweth the Son, except the Father. If it be the image of the shape of a servant undertaken for our sakes: understand that the splendour and shining brightness of his glory, cannot be represented with dead colours: for even the Disciples on the Mountain were not able to abide the brightness of his shining face; how much less are we able to abide the celestial splendour of his glorified body? Elymas. All this is only against the worshipping of images, which we do not, but only have them for remembrances, knowing also, that an image cannot represent perfectly the divinity, but put us in mind of him, that sometime appeared in this shape. Paul. Indeed so you make your seduced in England believe: but in your second Nicene Council their worshipping was decreed, which made the Frankfort Council so much distaste their proceed. Constantine, Bishop of Constance, in that Nicene Council said: I worship the holy images with the same worship, wherewith I worship the consubstantial Trinity. And john the Legate of the East; The Image of the King is the King, and so the image God is God: and therefore if any man worshippeth it with the same worship, he sinneth not. And the chief pillars of the Roman Church since. Thomas Aquinas, and Bellarmine speak to the same effect. Aquin. Tom 3. qu. 25. crtic. 3. The one faith; Because the Cross representeth Christ, who is God, it is also to be worshipped with divine worship. Bell. de Ecclesia triumph. l. 2.6.2. The other saith, that images are properly to be worshipped. And unto them we may join a third speaking in the name of all, Azor. lib. 9 c. 6. Azorias, who saith. It is the constant opinion of our divines, that the image is to be worshipped with the same worship that the thing represented by it. In a Council held at London, An. 712, the chief ground, whereupon they proceeded for images, was the tale of a certain Monk, Egwinus, who affirmed upon oath, that the Virgin Mary appeared unto him in a dream, & declared that it was her will, that her image should be set up in Churches & worshipped. Serg. Paul. It seemeth, that here in England they are ashamed of the doctrine of worshipping Images; and therefore they seek to hide what their Church holdeth herein: and good reason, if the patrons of image-worshipping be considered: for if I have observed you aright, there have been none but infamous persons, Irene, and Basilius for murder, the Pope of Rome for ambition, and superstitious Monks blindly leading on the blind to the veneration of images by their fables. Enough therefore hath been said of this point, proceed now to some other. Paul. The next shall be the single life of men in holy Orders, because there was much trouble about this at the same time that images were in question. For in England at a Council held at Canterbury Anno 975, there was great question about it: but Dunstan then Archbishop of Canterbury handled the matter so, that when it was likely to have gone against him, who stood for a prohibition of marriage, there was a voice heard from a Crucifix standing there, that Dunstan's opinion was best, and thereupon they decreed against marriage of men in holy orders. Hist. Magd. Cent. 10. c. 9 But at their next meeting Falihodus a Scot learnedly proved by the holy Scriptures that marriage was lawful for all men, and so their minds were again altered taking that voice to come from the Devil and not from God, who cannot be contrary to himself. And after this, Anno 1060, Pope Nicholas the second sent one Damianus to hold a Council at Milan, who condemned these marriages as the heresy of the Nicolaitans: whereupon a great tumult in the City followed. And after this at Erfurd, Anno 1074, a Council was called by the Archbishop of Mentz, commanded so to do by Gregory the seventh, Pope, to which came many married Priests proving the lawfulness of their marriages, and urging the ancient practice of Clergymen: but when they no whit prevailed, the Archbishop pressing them to put away their wives, they went out, and through great discontent meditated his destruction, whereof he being ware, fled for that time from the Council. The next year being again commanded, and the Pope's Legate being present, he attempted the same business again at Mentz: but the Priests being assenibled, so terrified them both with clapping their hands, and with a vehement commotion of their bodies, that they fled away for their lives, neither durst he ever after assemble any more Council to that end. Elym. You do well to pitch upon these later times wherein Priests were grown more carnal and licentious: for you might if it pleased you, have found out Counsels long before these, determining against Priest's marriage without any tumult. The 2 Carthag: Council under Theodosius, about Anno 380, forbade the marriage of Bishops, Priests and Deacons, and in such as were already married, an abstinence from matrimonial society. A Council held at Altissidorum in France, Anno 613. ratifyed the same decree. And the 4 Council of Toledo in Spain, Anno 639, ordained, that when Priests and Deacons are admitted to their offices they should vow chastity. Yea it was a thing so generally received even from the Apostles times, as that till of late years all were single without contradiction. Paul. That is a notorious lie. For in the first Council after the Apostles times, which was held at Ancyra in Galatia Anno 308, it was ordained, that Deacons professing at the time of their ordination that they had not the gift of continency, might afterwards marry. And in the Council of Nice, Anno 330, the marriage of such as were in holy orders coming in question again, Socrat. Lib. 1.6, 11. Paphnutim Bishop of a town in Thebaids being himself single, so persuaded to leave every man to his own liberty, that nothing was then concluded against these marriages. And in the 2 Council of Toledo it was ordained, Con. Toll. Con. 1. as in the Ancyran Council before. Now I pitched upon later times, because then the debating of the question is set forth, and upon what grounds your Church proceeded, which is omitted in Counsels foregoing. But I am glad, that you can go no higher in this point, than the second Carthag: Council, wherein neither were their marriages condemned, but continency commended; so that we have two Counsels before you, that left marriage free to all men that could not contain. Serg. Paul. You have said enough touching this matter, and it is most likely, that the Dewill spoke in the Council of Canter ●ury on Dunstan's side against Prusts marriages, because as I remember, you shown me before, that to forbid marriage is the doctrine of Denils. Proceed therefore to some other point. Paul. The real presence so much stood upon shall be the next. This was never determined, nor the word transubstantiation heard of, till the Council of L●●eran, under Pope Innocent the third, Anno 1215, and the Council held at Rome under Leo the ninth, Anno 1050 against Berengarius, who seeing that such an opinion began to take place, impugned it, and was therefore condemned; and in another Council under Pope Nicholas the second, brought to recant, but he afterwards wrote again to justify the same truth, and to show his repentance for his recantation. Elym. Herein you do notoriously abuse the world. It is true indeed, that before Berengarius his opposition, because no man withstood the doctrine of transubstantiation it was not in a Council determined. But doth it follow therefore, that it was not before this time maintained? Have not all the Fathers that lived before, from time to time, as they had occasion to treat of the Mass, taught with one consent, a secret conversion by the Priest's consecration. Ambr. useth the very word conversion & mutation. Lib. 4. de sacram. v. 4. Hom. 5. de Pascale. Euseb. Emissenus saith, that the Priest by a secret power doth turn the visible creatures into the substance of Christ's body & blood: what should I here reckon up more? Bellarmine hath numbered 32 Fathers speaking to the same effect. Paul. Although the Fathers do use the words conversion, mutation, and making, yet it is true, that I said before, they never taught transubstantiation: yea after that Leo the ninth and his Council had condemned Berengarius, Peter Lombard one of your Schoolmen, that lived Anno 1145, Lombard. Sent. 1.4. dist. 11. scanning upon this conversion, saith, If it be enquired what manner of conversion it is, whether formal or substantial, or of any other kind, I am not able to define. And after the determination of the Lateran Council, diverse others of your learnedest Schoolc-men having enuously acknowledged, that the faith of the transubstantiation is founded only upon the determination of the Church: as Scot in 4. Dist. ●1. 〈◊〉 3, art. 1. and Bi●llect 41. in Ca●. Miss. Petr●● de A●aco in 4 Sem. qu. 5. art. 2. Conc. 2. with diverse others. To those sayings of the Fathers I answer, that they meant not any alteration of the substance of the bread & wine, but that it still remaining, they became in a wonderful manner Christ's very body and blood to the faithful receiver. For thus Ambrose expresseth himself, Amb. de s●●ram. 1.4. c. 4. ●ial. 2. Gel: in Eutych. saying, They are the things which they were, and are changed into another thing: And Theodoret saith, These mystical signs do not g●● from their nature after their sanctification. And Gelasius against Eutychcs saith; The signs remain in the propriety of their nature. And Dr●thmarus, that lived about An. 800, writing upon these words; ' Do this in remembrance of me, Drutb in ●iet. 26. saith, the Lord turning the bread spiritually into his body, & the wine into his blood hath commanded us to do the same, that hereby we might remember what he hath done for us. Augustine saith, The Lord doubted not to say, This is my body, August. Cont. Adim. c. 12. when he game a sign of his body. I could also reckon up many more, who have taught, that the very bread in the Sacrament is Christ's body, and not some other substance under the appearance of bread: as Iren. Just in Martyr, Cyprian, Chrysostome, Origen, Nazianzen, etc. Elym. These are your shists: for though you be urged with places and sayings most plain, you will still have some evasion or other. Is it likely, that if transubstantiation, though not in word, yet in effect had not been generally received before Leo, or the Latoran Council, that all the world without any opposition, but only of one Berengarius would have at once yielded unto it? Paul. I wonder that you can without blushing speak of such a general consent of all, when as the whole Greek Church withstood it tooth and nail: for howsoener they agreed unto the Church of Rome in other things, yet in this point, such as were present of them at the Council of Flerence under Eugenius the 4, Anno 1439, could never be brought to consent: yet because Eugenius was desirous of a consent for the credit of his Sea, having drawn them to subscribe to his supremacy, the proceeding of the Holy Ghost, the use of unleavened bread in the sacrament, and to Purgatory, he caused a Bull to be published, called Bulla consensus, notwithstanding their constant opposition in the point of transubstantiation; but even in other things, wherein they yielded, such distaste was taken at them by the rest of the Greek Churches at their return home, that they were publicly execrated therefore, and prohibited Christian burial. And for others, that opinion of the Spirits guiding the Church in the truth did so prevail with them, as that they yielded to transubstantiation because it was in the Lateran Council determined, as appeareth by the confession of the Schoolmen before cited, Scot in 4 dist. 11 qu. 3. art. 1. the first of whom Scotus saith; If it be enquired, why the Church hath chosen this so hard an understanding of this article about transubstantiation, when as the words of the Scripture might be expounded safely according to a more easy and true sense in appearance: I answer that the Catholic Church hath expounded the Scripture by the same Spirit of truth, whereby it was at the first deliucred. Elym. All this will not elude the antiquity of this doctrine. For if transubstantiation were not always held, why was the Mass called a sacrifice, the table an altar, the Minister a Priest? why hath it always been showed to the people to be worshipped, and offered in one kind to the people, and carried about with that reverence, and the remainder of it kept for the same purpose in a Pixe to be ready upon all occasions? Paul. We do acknowledge that very anciently these names of sacrifice, Altar, and Priest were usurped, but not in your sense. The table of the Lord was called an altar, because the offerings of Christian people coming to the holy Communion which were brought for the relief of the poor, were laid upon it, according to Irevaus, who saith, Lib. 2. Cap. 32. that Christ by taking bread and wine taught the Disciples a new oblation of the new Testament, the first fruits of his creatures. In those Cannons, which are said to be the Apostles, Can. 4. it is or●●yned, that nothing should be offered upon the altar but ears of corn and frankinscense, and in the 3 Council of Carthage, Can. 24. that nothing should be offered but fruits of come and grapes. And hence partly came the name sacrifice, for alms are a sacrifice to God: and partly because of the representation of Christ's sacrifice made hereby, seeing it is usual to call the thing representing by the name of the thing represented. Lomb 1.4. dist. 12. And so Peter Lomb●rd saith, that it is not properly called a sacrifice, but because it is a memorial and representation of the true sacrifice of Christ upon the cross. And lastly, for the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving then offered unto God. That Christians had not altars properly so called is most plain, from Arnobins, Arnob. lib. 6. contra gaunt. Orig. lib. 8. cent. Calls. who saith, that the Gentiles accused the Christians, because they had no altars: and from Origen, who acknowledgeth, that Christians had neither altars, nor images. And therefore as it is called an altar, so sometime it is also called a table. See August. count. lit. Petil. l. 2. c. 47. Touching adoration, it was not used, till Honorius the third, Anno 1220, five years after the Council of Lateran's Touching the administration in one kind, that was neves used, Def. lib. de office py viri. till 1000 years after Christ, as Cassauder showeth, and it was first decreed in the Council of Constance, under Pope jobu the 23, Anno 1414 Touching the reservation of the remainder, there was a long time no such use, for they burned it in the fire, Hesych. lib. 2. in Levit ● 8. as Hesych: testifieth; and if sometime it was reserved, it was by private persons, who carried it home with them: but was not so generally approved; and after more consideration in Counsels condemned, as in the Council called Caesar Augustau. Cap. 3. If any be proved not to have conformed the Eucharist received in the Church, let him be anathema. And in the first Tolletan Council: Cap. 14. If they shall remain ●ill the morrow, let them not be any longer reserved, but by the diligence of the Clerciks consumed. The name of your Mass is very ancient, but then the Mass or missa was a dismissing of the Catecumeni, when others remained to receive, and thus it continued to Anno 600, according to I sidor. lib. 6. Orig. c. 19 The Mass therefore in your Church now is new, and so are all your usages of it, and justly by Christians to be exploded. Serg. Paul. I think this point hath been so seanned, that there needs no more to be said, for mine own part you hour given we such light into these things, as I never had before: for the ancient name of the Mass and Sacrifice, and Altar, etc. made still some scruple in my mind, that transubstantiation was a most ancient tenant of the Church. But seeing I am now fully satisfied, proceed to some other point. Paul. The next new thing is the Latin tongue, wherein the Mass is offered, and prayers are made, and the Scriptures are kept. This was not, but where Latin was understood till the days of Vitalian Pope, An. 666, Os●●d. Cont. 7. in whose time Latin was first used in Constantinople: Neither doth your Nauclerus much differ: For he assigneth it to the time of Pope Agatho, Anno 675. In the other countries', which understood Latin, as in France, Britain, and in Africa, it was used more anciently: for the Latin tongue was familiar to them for the space of 700 years and upwards, as appeareth in one passage of the third Council of Tours, Cap. 17. Anno 770, wherein it is appointed, that Homilies should be turned into a rustic Latin tongue, or Theotiske, that they might the better be understood. So that, if the service was more anciently performed in the Latin tongue, it was because they commonly understood it best: but since, it not being understood, it is an absurd novelty to use it. Elym. It is necessary, that seeing Christ's Church is one, the service should be uniform; and for the Scriptures great reason, to keep them in an unknown tongue, to prevent error. Paul. It is necessary indeed, as conducing to establish the Latin Monarchy; but it were more necessary for edification to have all in a known tongue, as anciently it was wont to be, as may be gathered from Chrysostom, who saith, Hom. 18. in 2. Cor. that common prayers are made both by the Priest, and the people: and Isidor. When Psalms are sung, they ought to be sung of all: De Ecst. off. ib. 1. cap. 10. when Prayer is made, let it be made by all; and when there is reading, let silence be made that all may hear. And for your pretended fear of heresy, that may be an excuse: but seeing anciently all had the Bible in their own languages, it cannot but pass for a nouclty. Serg. Paul. Be there any more points, the antiquitis whereof you can disprous, as you have done these? Paul. Yes: the doctrine of Purgatory and praying for the dead, came in also long after the Apostles. The first that make mention of Purgatory, are Tertullian and Origen, whose authority is not so great, because the one was a Montamst Heretic; and the other was condemned for many errors. In Augustine's time, which was 400 years after Christ it was spoken of but doubtfully. Tnchit. c. 67.69. Whether there shall be such a thing or no, it may be enquired, and either be found out, or be kept secret from some faithful persons, In Esa. l. 28. c. 〈◊〉. saith Augustine. And Jerome saith, that these things are to be left to the judgement and knowledge of God. Grog. in job 13. c. 20. And Gregory the first, Bishop of Rome, who was after, Anno 600, saith, because we are redcemed, we have this benefit, that when we are taken away from the habitation of our flesh, we are presently earied to beavenly rewards. Tertul. de Cor. mil. And the same Tertullian was the first, that spoke of praying for the dead, who also confesseth, that if you require Scripture for it, you shall find nonc: but tradition shall be pretended as the increaser; custom the confirmer: and faith the observer of it. Yet it is to be acknowledged, that even the most approved of the ancient, have prayed for the dead, as Augustine for his Mother Monica, and Ambrose for Theodosius: but doubtingly because without ground in the Word. Elymas. Then I hope you will yield this to be more ancient, than your not praying for the dead, and your utter denying of Purgatory, as an invention derived from the H●●●hen. Paul. Their praying for the dead was not the same with yours: but either for the augmentation of their glory, who were in Heaven, as Ambrose having said, that Theodesius remained in the light, and gloried in the company of the Saints: yet he prayeth, give perfect rest to thy servant Theodosius; Confess l. 9 c. 13. or to express their affection, as Augustine, who saith of his mother Monica; I beleeus, that thou hast done what I desire, but accept of the voluntaries of my mouth. Or if they thought them damned; they prayed for a mitigation of their pains; or holding that they might all be kept in one common place, till the day of judgement, as La●tantius showeth the diuin. Draem. lib. 7. cap. 21. Iren. lib. 5. Th●y prayed for the hastening of their Deliverance. They prayed not for souls in Purgatoric; neither did they, which held Purgatory, believe, that venial sins were there done away, and temporal punishments satisfied for, till after Anno 1000, as your Church now teacheth; and therefore, even these points, as you hold them are new, and vnthought of by antiquity. And seeing no such custom is grounded upon the Word of God, as Tertullian hath confessed, our denying thus to pray is more Apostolical, and so more ancient then either yours or theirs. Serg. Paul. But thus you will make the Church in the time of these holy Fathers to have been no true Church, and them no true members, whom we all yet have in high esteem. Paul. It doth not follow, because they erred in one thing in practice, through too much affection, that they were no Church: for it is not any error, that overturncth the Church; but errors razing the foundation, as hath been before declared. Elymas. But these holy Fathers used the same things about the service of God that we do, as holy Water, and Chrism, both to the sick, and to the baptised, and Exorcizing, and Crossing, and honoured the Saints departed with going to visit their Relics, and praying unto them, and commended a Monastical life, and confession to a Priest, and works of penance, wherein the very life of our Religion consisteth. And therefore if we be no true Church, they were no true Church neither. Paul. Although there were some tincture of these superstitions in the Church in the days of the holy Fathers: yet there was great difference betwixt them and you herein. They used the Cross, not for any confidence they had in it, but as a sign of their profession, as a Aruobius testifieth, saying; We do neither worship, nor wish crosses. And Ambrose speaking of Helena, who found the Cross of Christ, faith, Arnob. l. 8. She found the title, and worshipped the King, but not the wood. Ambros de Obits. Theo●os. For this were a Gentile error, and a venity of the wicked, They anointed the sick at the beginning of their sickness in the part grieved to ease them, as Gregory Turoneusis saith. Hist. Franc. l. 6. c. 7. But you to confer grace at the end of sickness, when there is no more hope of life. They did not pray to the Saints departed, as able to hear them; but in their soliloquies by way of consabulation through a Prosopopeia. For they held, that the Saints departed could not hear them: witness Saint Augustine, who to prove, that they know not what is done, ox said here, bringeth in that place of Esai. L. de Cura. pr● mont. c. 13. 63. Abraham knoweth us not: and 2 King. 22. I will gather thee to thy Fathers, that thy eyes may not see the ewil to come. And they did commonly hold then, that all the faithful departed remained in some secret place out of heaven, where they had not the sight of God; as Iren. l. 5. Iust. Martyr. qu. 60. & 76. Orig. Hom. 7. in levit. Chrys. Hom. 38. in 1 Cor. etc. And for worship they gave them none, neither Doulia, nor Latria. For so saith the same Augustine. They are to be honoured for imitation, not be worshipped for Religion. Aug. de vera relig. c. 55. And he useth the very word, expressing Doulia. We honour the Saints with charitis, not with service. Neither did they use praying to them in their public service. For so also Saint Augustine saith. Aug. de Cinit. Dei lib. 22. c. 10. The Martyrs are named at our sacrifice, as men of God, that have overcome the world, but they are not called upon by the Priest that sacrificeth. But you pray unto them in all your Liturgyes, and worship them with Doulia. And for all other things by you alleged, though they have been anciently used, yet their beginning is not unknown unto us. Elym. But you have not yet answered my argument, proving, that our case and theirs is all one. For admit, that there were some little difference, yet this cannot conclude against us, as no Church, if they were a true Church, seeing we agree together in one kind of service. Paul. They agreed not with you in errors against the foundation, and therefore were not implicated in the same danger, as even in this about the Saints departed, where the chief danger lieth, viz. in worshipping them, and trusting to them, as to Mediators, that shall prevail, and that have power to help. But you shall not thus put me from the first thing propounded: viz. to show the beginning of these superstitions. Pope Alexander first instituted Holy Water, Anno 115. Sabel. Tom. 1. Concil. Pope Hig●●● Chrysene in Baptism, Anno 141. Euseb. lib. 4 c. 10. An Exorcift was first ordained by Pope Caius, Anno 283. Sabel. The sign of the Cross was not used, but for signification 300 years; or if for blessing, with invocation upon him that was crucified, the trust not being in it, but in Christ crucified. A material Cross or Crucifix, was not set up till 400 years after Christ: neither was it appointed, till Anno 710, when the Trullan Council ordained, Cap. 82. Policbron l. 5. c. 12. Can. 15. that Christ should be pictured hanging upon the Cross. The first Cross erected in England, was Anno 635, in the time of King Oswald. In the fift Carth. Council, Anno 409. the worshipping of Saints Relics, is declared to be heathenish: and supplication was made to the Emperor, that Relics should be abolished, In a Council at Laodu●ea, Anno 368, the worshipping of Angels is condemned, as horrible idolatry. Petrus Gnapheus is no●ed to be the first, that brought invocation upon the Saints into the public service, Anno 500: Niceph. l. 15 c. 28. and at every turn the mention of the Mother of our Lord. And about Anno 600, Pope Gregory the first appointed your Liturgy with prayers to all the Saints, as now it is. Anthony was the first that renouncing the world, led a solitary life in the Wilderness, because of the hot persecutions of the Church, Anno 300. For so Frising saith; Lib. 4. cap. 5. There were in these days famous Princes of Cbrists' Kingdom, Paul and Antony the first Eremites. And Basilius first built Monasteries: Basil. Epis●. 63. for he saith that the Neocesareaus objected unto him the newness of a Monastical life. Eustatius an Heretic extolled a Monastical life, and condemned marriage, holding it necessary to salvation, to forsake all and to turn Monk. Against him a Council was assembled at Gangra, Anno 324, and his opinions were condemned, where they professed, that they honoured true Virginity, and withal the chaste bond of marriage, etc. Auticular confession to a Priest began not, till An. 800. It was first appointed in Concil. Cabiloneusi 2. c. 32. and coneil. Mogunt. in the time of Gregory 4. c. 26. Before if it were used, yet it was not enjoined, yea, warning was given against it. Chrys. hom. 4. de Laz. Chrysostome saith; Take heed that thou tell not thy sins to man, lest be upbraid thee; but show thy wounds to the Lord, Scal paradisi Grad. that hath a care of thee, that is gentle, that is the Physician. And johannes Climacus, An. 580. Before all things, let us confess our sins only to the Lord our judge, and be ready at his command to confess them to all men. And with confession began works of penance. For before, Chrysostome speaking, how a man might attain peace with God, saith, He hath not commanded thee to pass over the Mountains, Chrys. in Math. Hom. 55. to sail over the Seas, to dig so much ground, to remain fasting, or to put on sackcloth; but to give of that which thou hast unto the poor. Serg. Paul. But seeing you acknowledge most of these things to be very ancient, and the Fathers which subscribed unto them with the Church in their days, to be the true Church of God: Why have you utterly abolished all these things? Had it not been better to have restored them only to that state wherein they were in the time of the Fathers, cutting off the accessions that have since been made? Paul. No, by no means, for it would not have been so safe to hold these customs after their manner, seeing they have since proved roots of most pestilent weeds, lest in time, there should be danger of the same evils coming on again. Even as it is no wisdom in taking away Briars and Thorns off a ground, to preserve the roots still. For from their praying for the dead to express their affection, if happily they might increase their joys, or mitigate their pains, sprung an opinion of a third place, wherein the souls of the faithful are tormented, but may be helped out by praying for them. From using a cross in the air for commemoration of their Christian profession, sprung confidence, and adoration of the Cross. From mentioning the Saints departed over their altars, praising God for them, sprung praying unto them. From annoiling to heal sickness of the body, sprung annoiling to confer grace to the soul. From a Monastical life taken up for necessity, sprung up an opinion of the necessity of a Monkish life in all, that would be perfect, and of the merit hereof. Serg. Paul. You have not yet shown the first broaching of that doctrine touching freewill, instification by works in part, uncertainty of faith, of perfection, the merit of works, and of works of supererrogation: nor of Christ's satisfaction only for eternal punishments, which you shown did chiefly pull down the foundation. I pray you therefore now show the beginning of these points also. Paul. This whole brood was hatched almost at one time, viz. of the Schoolmen about Anno 1200, or of the Council of Trent, Anno 1500. That man hath freewill to desire to trune unto God, as one wounded and half dead hath to be succoured, was utterly rejected by the Fathers, especially after that occasion was given by Pelagius an Hercticke, to look more narrowly into the truth hereabout. Before, they speak somewhat uncertainly; De Sp. & lib. c. 3. de dogmat. Ecclesiae c. 27. Cont. Epist. 2. Pelag. l. 3 c. 8. but then Augustine saith; Freewill anatleth to nothing but to sin. And again, A holy thought, a good purpose, a godly counsel, and every motion of a good will is from God. And again, freewill anaileth to nothing but to sin. And with him consenteth Jerome against Pelagius: and Prosper, and Chrysostome who saith, that wicked men are altogether dead. Yea, to the days of Bernard the same was held. For he saith, We have power to will, Barn. de gra & lib. arbuitrio. but neither good nor evil: to will good is a profect, to will evil is a defect. O— r freewill maketh us willing, but grace well willing. And nothing is more frequent amongst the Fathers, then to teach, that whatsoever proceedeth from a natural man is sin. jeron. in Gal c. 3. Hear Jerome for all, who saith, without Christ all virtue is vice. This point than is not yet four hundred years old. Elymas. Nothing was more frequent in the mouths of the Fathers before Pelagius, than freewill. Apol. 1. Lib 4 c. 71. justin Martyr saith, that there were nothing in men worthy of praise, if they had not equal power to turn themselves either way. Ireneus saith; Man hath power to choose, even as the Augels. Wherefore their impugning of freewill afterwards was to be imputed to the heat of their opposition made to Pelagius, who taught that men had power to turn to God, and to keep his commandments out of the liberty of their freewill. Paul. That which you allege touching their oppugning Pelagius, may much more truly be applied about their sayings, wherein they seem to be for the freedom of man's will: for they had to do with the Marcionitel, and Mannichces, who held a necessity of all things whereby men were carried either to good or evil; and hence it came to pass, that they uttered such sayings as these: but when they saw the danger of the Heresy touching free will ensuing, they laboured by speaking against it to quite themselves from the least aspersion this way. Serg. Paul. And truly this is most likely: for the proper time for a man to express what he holdeth, is then, when disputation is moved about it, whereas be speaketh not so warily at other times, when be feareth not that any hold will be taken upon his sayings against the truth. And I am the rather persuaded, that they were against all liberty of the will unto good, because they so consentingly taught, that every thing proceeding from a natural man before his conversion is sin. Paul. Touching justification by works, or by inherent righteousness, and not only by the righteousness. of Christ imputed by faith, none ever taught it, till An. 1500. For Christ's righteousness only hath ever heene rested upon by the Fathers: jeron in 2 Cor. 5. in ● Cor. 1. Jerome saith, Christ hath so received the name of sin, as we are made the righteousness of God in him, not ours, nor in us. Ambrose saith, This is appointed of God, that he which beloeveth in Christ should be saved without works, having his sins freely forgiven through faith only. And Chrysostome saith, In Rom. 3. Hom 7. Epist. 190. So soon as a man believeth, he is justified. Bernard saith, Another man's righteousness is assigned unto man, because he wanted his own, the satisfaction of one is imputed to us all. Elym. But there is a double justification: the first, which is only by faith, and hereby a man passeth from the state of sin into the estate of grace: and the second, which is by inmherent righteousness, whereby a man of just becometh more just and worthy of heaven. And of the first of these only the Fathers spoke, not of the other. Paul. They could not well speak of that, seeing it was unknown in their days, and long since invented. And touching the merit of the best man's righteousness. Bernard doth utterly deny it, saying, The merits of men are not such, Bernard Ser. 1. de An●●n. as that for them eternal life should be due of right; or so as that God should be unjust, if he did not therefore bestow eternal life: for to say nothing, that allour merits are Gods gifts, and so man is for them a debtor unto God, not God unto man; what are all merits to so great glory? Wherefore if meriting be spoken of by the Fathers, they meant nothing else but to prevail or obtain, or else they called good works merits, to set forth their dignity in respect of the divine acceptance, that men might be encouraged hereunto. Elym. You do altogether pervert their meaning: for they taught good works in the regenerate to be properly meritorious, seeing perfect righteousness according to the law is worthy of heaven, and such righteousness they taught, that men through the grace of God enabling them, did attain unto in this life, yea and that they could do and did more than the law required, and so merited for others also. Paul. You do most impudently wrong the Fathers: for none till above 1000 years after Christ, taught perfection of degrees in this life, but only perfection through Christ, and a comparative perfection, some exceeding others; but altogether against it. Saint. Angustine saith, Charity, Epist. 29. ad Hieron. that cannot be increased is in no man bear, and that which may be increased is in fault, because it is less, than it ought to be, by reason of which fault there is no man just and sinneth not, by reason of which fault no living man shall be justified in the sight of God. And Jerome saith, to affirm that any man liveth so, as that he is without sin, is to take man out of man, and to affirm that a man in the body is without the body, jerom contra Pelag. Epist. and rather to wish then to teach. And if they held, that no man can perfectly keep the Law, than it is certain, that they taught not, that men could both do all that the Law requireth, and more also. If then they have spoken any thing, wherein they may seem to be for supererogation, it is to be understood either of outward things, or of some special commendable thing, which is not commonly commanded to all, but commended to some. And so their doing more than is required was only with reference unto others; who did not likewise as not having that particular gift, Hom. 3. in 1. Cor. or in exterials, wherein Chrysostom saith, even the Philosophers exceeded the Commandment of God. Serg. Paul. I like this your interpretation of the Father's very well, and am hereby persuaded, that both perfect keeping of the Law and works of supererrogation are novelties. Proced therefore to uncertainty of faith. Paul. This uncertainty was not determined, not certainty of faith condemned, before the Council of Trent Anno 1500. The Fathers are most plain for assurance by faith. Aug. Tract 75. in Johan. August: saith, Christ is now in us, and we in him, but we believe this now, than we shall know it, although we know it now also through believing, but then we shall know it by beholding it. Regist. lib. 6.187. Gregory saith; The soul that thirsteth after God is first pricked with fear, then with love, but when sear hath been consumed with long anxiety of sorrow, a certain security of presumption of pardon doth arise. Hom. 14. in Rom. 8. And Chrysostome saith: The supreme Essence, which doth also bestow what it promiseth, testifying unto us, who can any more doubt of this dignity hereafter? And Bernard exhorteth to believe without doubting, Bern in Cant. Serm. 8. Whatsoever soul of you feeleth at any time in the secret of his conscience the Spirit of the Son crying Abba Father, let it presume that it is beloved with afatherly affection, and believe, doubting nothing. Elym. They meant nothing else, but certainty on God's part, but because man is mutable, and all promiser run upon condition of his perseverance, they have plainly taught elsewhere, that none can be certain by faith. Hear August. for all, who saith. Who of all the multitude of believers can presume that he is in the number of believers as long as he is in this mortality. Paul. They spoke in this manner to prevent carnal security, which followeth upon presumption, but they never impugned, but encouraged to assurance by faith. Serg. Paul. There remaineth now only one point, wherein I desire to hear you speak, viz. that of satis faction. Paul. And this is none of their least errors, that Christ satisfied only for eternal punishments, but for temporal due unto us for sin we ourselves are to satisfy: for as it is a plain derogation from the dignity of his passions. Touching this therefore I say, as of the former points it was not taught anciently, but the plain contrary: Tertullian saith, Tertul. de Baptis. Guiltiness being taken away, the punishment is also taken away; and that he may not seem to speak of eternal punishments only, he nameth death, according as it was threatened, Gen. 2.17. In the day that thou catest of it, thou shalt dye the death, which death here comprehendeth all punishments. And Saint Augustine saith, E●cbit. c. 70. Christ by taking upon him the punishment, and not the fault, hath done away both fault and punishment: Aug. de verb. Dom. Scr. 37. and elsewhere more expressly; Christ had two good things, righteousness, and immortality, we two evil things, sin and wortality, the one he took upon him, the other he did not, and by taking upon him the one, he freed us from both. As for satisfaction required of us, it is not, as he showeth, for punishment, but to show our repentance by our outward actions. So that according to August. we are delivered from mortality as a punishment, and not only from hell fire. Elym. Howsoever you seem to make these learned Fathers to speak, it is plain, that they meant only eternal punishments, borne by Christ for us. And therefore they do usually speak of works of penance and alms, as having force to purge and wash away sin. Chrysostome saith, Hom. 1. in Gen. The common Lord of us all, desirous to have all our sins washed away, hath invented this cure, which is made by fasting. Lib. de promis & prad. part. 2. c. 2. Hom. 1. And Prosper saith, Alms cleanse the whole man. And Cesarius saith, that a man who by sinning hath lost himself, doth agains redeem himself by his satisfaction. Paul. Where is there a word in all these touching satisfaction for temporal punishments? It may rather be inferred, if these speeches be strictly taken, that we are able to do something to deliver ourselves from sin, both in respect of guilt and punishment temporal & eternal. Wherefore it must needs be yielded, that these things were spoken improperly, that being ascribed to the instrument or means, which is proper unto Christ. Satisfaction therefore, as it is now taught in your Church, is rather to be referred to the Lateran Council, Anno 1215, wherein the sacrament of penance was established, an appendix whereof is satisfaction. Elym. Because you have spoken of the sacrament of penance first appointed in the Lateran Council, I will lay hold upon the occasion to put you to prove the novelty of the seven sacraments: for if seven have been anciently acknowledged, this is not so new, as you would make the world believe. Paul. I am very willing to follow you herein, and let the issue rest upon my proving your seven Sacraments to be novelties. I say then, that this number was not known, nor acknowledged by antiquity, but was first taught by Peter Lombard and the Schoolmen following him, above 1000 years after Christ. Epist. 118. Saint Augustine saith, the Sacraments of the New Testament are most few in number. Isidorus An. 600 saith, Lib. 6 Originum c. 19 Pasc. de Caena. The Sacraments are Baptism and Chrism, and the body and blood of Christ. And Pascasius Anno 900; saith likewise. Elym. They say, these two are the chief indeed, but they exclude not the rest. Hugo de Sancto Victore teacheth seven sacraments, and of them he saith some are the principal, wherein salvation standeth, Lib. de sacram. 7. part. 9 c. 6. viz. Baptism and the Supper of the Lord; the rest though they be not so necessary, yet they profit unto sanctification. And I could easily show, that the ancientest Fathers have called every of these Sacraments. Paul. I grant you without showing, that they called them sacraments, and so they called any holy sign, according to Augustine's definition; August. Epist. 5. Every holy sigue is a Sacrament. But that there are any more, than two, properly so called, they never taught, and even your Hugo, who acknowledgeth 7, can be no ground for your 7, for he reckoneth not penance for one, but the water of aspersion. And the very Schoolmen deny the rest to be sacraments, Lib. 4.26. properly so called. P. Lombard denyeth Matrimony to be a Sacrament properly and univocally with the other sacraments, and Durand likewise upon that place. Lib. 4. dist. 24. The same Lombard denyeth ordination to be properly a sacrament, and Alexander de Hales, and Thomas Aquinas upon that place, etc. Serg. Paul. This your dispute about the Sacraments hath brought to my mind another point yet ●●toucht about the holy Scriptures and Traditions. Can you show, that it is a noveliy is hold, that together with the Canonical Scriptures, Apocryphal books are to be received, and unwritten traditions, as a rule of our saith, or hath it ever been held thus? Paul. It is a novelty to hold, that the Scriptures do not contain in them all things necessary to salvation, and that Apocryphal books are to be received as Canonical, and that traditious are necessary to salvation. For the Fathers sought to hold all men only to the Scriptures: Hom. 1. in Psal. 95. Chrysostome saith, If any thing be spoken without Scripture, the thought of the bearers limpeth, sometimes yielding, and sometime doubting. And again, If ye hears any saying, I have the holy Spirit, Serm. de S. Sp. but not speaking out of the Gospel, be speaketh of himself, and the holy Spirit is not in him. So Basil, reg. Mor. 8. & 28. Epist. 80. And touching Apocryphal books, Cyril. Hierusalym, saith; Haus nothing to do with Apocryphal books. Catee. 4. but read the canonical which are confidently read in the Church. The Apostles and first Bishops were much wiser and more religious than thou, who delivered the scriptures unto us. Do not thou therefore, seeing thou art a child of the Church, ges beyond their bounds. Athen in Synop. Athanasius saith, There are 22 books of the old Testament Canonical, but there are other books which are not Canonical, which are only read of the Catecumeni, as the book of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, etc. jerom calleth the History of Susamus, Prafat. in Den. of Bel and the Dragon fables, and saith the same was the opinion of Eusebius, Apollinarius, Methodius, etc. Baruch was not received as Canonical till the Council of Florence, Anno 1439. And touching unwritten traditions, they received none of old, but either such as were consonant to the holy Scriptures, which were written in sense, though not in word, according to Augustine, of which was the baptism of Infants and not to rebaptize: De Gen, ad lit. lib. 10 c. 23. Tertul de Coron. c. 23. or customs in indifferent things according to Tertullian, who saith, Dost thou not think, that it is lawful for every faithful Church to conceive and constituent that which agreeth to God, 〈◊〉 to diseiplione, and profireth 〈◊〉 solnation? And these by the prestice of your own Church may be left off again. For the thrice dipping in Baptisin, standing in time of prayer upon the Lord's day, tasting of milk and honcy in Baptism, etc. anciently received, are now abrogated, and not held to bind. Elym. I could rejoin with you about this argument, and bring many passages of the Father's showing their high esteem of traditions: but lest these disputes should prove tedious to this noble person, and that he may not, being fascinated with that which you have said, incline to your colourable Heresies, I say that all, which you have produced to disgrace the Catholic Religion as novel, are nothing but cavils. For if our Religion be new, and so fair degenerated, as that the foundation is hereby overthrown, there was no Religion, and so no true Church of God in the world for many hundred years, seeing by your own confession, the Church which was above 1000 or 1300 years ago, had many customs, and held many things which you do not at this day. And with what face then can you allege them, as being on your side so commonly as you do, as though your Church were all one with theirs, when as it is plain to any that will understand, that they are our Fathers, and not yours; and such as suffered death, our Martyrs, sealing up with their blood the Roman Cathohke Religion, and not your new devised way of serving God without crossing, Chrism, Holy water, Prayers for the dead, devotion to the Saints, etc. and full of carnal liberty, in all things pleasing to the flesh, as marriages of Priests, and worldly living of all, without any renouncing of secular affairs for the service of God, and repenting only with a little grief, no works of penance being after required, with many other points of licentiousness. If any held with this Religion in all these points, tell who they were, when and where they lived, if you can, till within these hundred years, and that is as late as the newest of our points, to grant you your own saying. Paul. Never were any so justly to be taxed for cavilling, as you: for what can it else be, when all your points, in that manner you hold them, have been plainly showed to be new, to fly to this general reason for evasion? The Church in the time of these ancients, was the same with ours in all matters of faith, as I have fully declared, neither can a few ceremonies since, more corrupted, and therefore by us abolished, estrange our Church from theirs, no more than the breaking down of the brazen Serpent, and serving God without it in Hezekiahs' days, estranged the Church then from the Church in the time of Moses. As for the holy Martyrs, it is a most vain brag that they sealed your Religion with their blood, which was not then in question. It was rather our Religion, that they sealed, seeing they commonly suffered for such zeal to Christ, as that together with him they would not worship Idols, as we also refuse to do. For holding the same points with us in every particular, it is not necessary to show any that did, it is sufficient to prove our Religion true, and Apostolical, to have showed the rising up of all those rites, that we ahue done away, to have been long after the Apostles days. And for carnal liberty, whereby you seek to disgrace the truth, herein you blaspheme the very liberty of the Gospel, after the manner of the malicious Pharisees, who cried out upon Christ; Behold a glution, and drinker of wine, a friend of Publicans and sinners. When he did no more than he might in taking liberty herein. For even so we maintain liberty of marriage to all men, and reject your superstitious austerities; because marriage is honourable amongst all men, and we would not through a multitude of observances make Christ's easy yoke and light burden, heavy, Heb. 13.4. like to that under the Law, of which Saint Peter complaineth that it was such, that neither we, nor our Fathers were able to bear. Act. 15.10. And if experience may be heard, this your taking upon you to be stricter than God, shall be abundantly convinced to opon a fare wider gap to licentiousness, seeing all he world ringeth of the carnality, uncleanness, and dissoluteness of your very votaries and Priests, and of Rome itself above all. And it is observed, that your very Confessions and appointments of penance is turned into a fountain of liberty, seeing more rioes and disorders are against the time of shrift in Italy commited, than all the year before. Serg. Paul. But can you not show any that were of your reformed Religion for substance and matter of faith from the time of the ancient Fathers, till Luther. That was a very long distance of time of about 1000 years. Do you hold that God was without a true visible Church all this time? Paul. God was never without a true Church, neither was she hid long at any time: For till the Pope was made an Idol, and idolatry with Images, and with the Mass took place in the Church, and the Virgin Mary was made joint mediator with Christ, it was a true Church, which was till about Anno 700. And when the Latin Church was by these abominations corrupted, the Greek Church still continued more sound: for they withstood the Pope's supremacy, opposed images, held no transubstantiation; neither subscribed to the points maintained by the Romanists, till the Council of Florence, Anno 1439, at what time I have also showed, how much this subscription was mis-liked by the body of that Church. So that if no where else, yet in Grecia the true Church was to be found, till then. But there wanted not oppugners of Images, and of the Pope's supremacy in other places at the same times. The Council of Frankford was famous for determining against Images, as I have also declared. Between 700 and Anno 800 Albertus Gallus a French Bishop opposed himself against the Pope in his Legate Boniface, Hist. Magd. Cent. 8. c. 10. and with him one Clemens a presbyter, and Saemson, who were therefore excommunicated by the Pope, and imprisoned. And about the same time johan Mailrosius and Claudius Clemens sent from Scotland, & first Professors of learning in the University of Paris, denied to subscribe to the Romish superstitions. Between 800 and 900 Claudius Taurinensis Bishop of Thurin in Piedmont, denied the Pope, to be an apostolic Bishop, for he is not, said he, an apostolic Bishop, that sitteth in the apostolic chair, but that fulfilleth an apostolic office. Whights' way to the Church. p. 386. He cast images out of the Church, and impugned the worshipping of the cross. About that time were joh. Scotus also and Bertram that denied the real presence, Anno 847. Thergandus Bishop of Treniris inveighed against Pope Nicolas, calling him Antichrist, Auentin: Reginold. lib. 2. for which he was excommunicated, and afterwards stain. Between An. 900 and ●000, Otho impugned the supremacy, Uhite ibid. and Arnulphus called the Pope Antichrist. Between An. 1000 and 1100, Berengarius impugned the real presence, of whom I have already spoken. About that time Leaskerius an Archbishop in France was of the same opinion. Berweene An. 1100, and 1200. A certain Bishop of Florence preached, Hist. Magd. Cent. 12. that Antichrist was come, in the time of Pascalis the second. Also one Francis an Abbor, and Petrus do Bevis a Priest, impugned the real presence, with many other Popish points: and Bernard is famous for many points against Popery. Between Anno 1200, Hist Magd. Cent. 13. c. 2. and 1300, Gulielm. de Sancto amers, was banished for an heretic and had his books burnt; and Robert Grosted Bishop of Lincoln, greatly opposed the Pope. Between An. 1300 and 1400, was john Wickliff professor of divinity in Oxford, who opposed the Pope in sundry points. Hist. Magd. Cent. 14. And out of Greece came diverse by reason of the Turkish tyranny, amongst whom Marsilius Patavinus was of most note: he, maintained that the Pope had no power over other Bishops, much less over Kings. Armachanus an Archb. in Ireland, and johannes de Rupeseissa were of the same opinion also. And after this john hus, and Jerome of Prague, with almost all the country of Bohemia, were famous for standing for the truth. Serg. Paul. But these were but a few in an age, neither could they make a Church: how happened it, that there were no more till. Wickliff's time? Paul. Where Bishops and learned teachers have been stirred up to stand for the truth, there is no doubt, but as lights of the world they did enlighten many more, though they be to us unknown. Neither was the mystery of iniquity grown to that height till about Wickliff's time, and the days of the succeeding Worthies, so that the Roman religion was not altogether so dangerous: but now they being almost quite gone from Christ, their superstitious devotion increasing towards the Virgin Mary, and the rest of the Saints, satisfying for a man's own sins in part, being taught, and the merit of works, and freedom of will set up, and the assurance of faith condemned, and such horrible idolatry with the Mass more than ever committed, they which had the Spirit of God in any measure within them could no longer forbear, but in great companies utterly separate from the Church of Rome, lest whilst they would be worshippers of Christ, they should become limbs of Antichrist, to the destruction of their souls. Elymas. Nay rather are ye now become limbs of Antichrist, by following Martin Luther a Monk, that broke his Vow, and married a Nun, & was of a notorious wicked life, and had consultation with the Devil, and so went to the Devil at the last: and by following King Henry 8, a man so sensual and tyrannical; for these and such like were your leaders to this Schism, and not any good Spirit, as ye pretend. Paul. In seeking to wound the truth through the sides of these men, you do but according to your accustomed manner, it being one of the Pillars of your Religion, to lay slanderous imputations upon your Adversaries, as a late Writer of ours hath notably showed. Willet Tetrastul. Papismi. But as for Martin Luther, it is well known, that he was a man of great zeal for the truth, and succeeded accordingly; your Pope and all your power not being able to lay violent hands upon him, but that he was preserved to dye in peace. If there were any thing taxable in him, in what holy man hath there not been likewise it is no prejudice to the truth, which he stood for: no more, than Saint Paul's forepast persecuting and blaspheming was to the Gospel. And for King Henry 8, God can use any instrument to beat down the pride of such an enemy as the Pope, as be used Nabuchadnezzar to chastise idolatrous judah, and the Syrian Precedents, and Roman Emperors, to destroy Christ's enemies, and to abrogate the legal service by burning up the Temple, and yet this made nothing the more for the credit of the jews Religion, or discredit of the Christian thus advanced. But because you have given me so just occasion, I say that if the wickedness and miscrable ends of chief erectors of any Religion, be an argument of a bad religion, as undoubtedly it is, the Religion of the Church of Rome is abundantly convinced to be such; seeing so many Poper have been so notoriously wicked, and perished so miserably, and such apparent judgements have been executed upon others, that hath helped to advance it. Gregory the third, who drew up the Popedom to such a high pin, was a most wicked man: for when Phocas, who had murdered Mauricius, Platina. and was therefore greatly taxed by the Patriarch of Constantinople, for which he was much offended with him, he sent his image to Rome, and Gregory received it honourably, and flattereth with this parricide, but enjoyed not long the honour of universal Bishop thus attained, for he died within nine months after. And Phocas the founder of the primacy proved soon after a slothful beast, Pompon. Latus Paul. Diacon. cruelly murdering many of the Nobles, ravishing many Matrons and Virgins, wallowing in daily drunkenness, and acocrdingly was rewarded. For he was taken by Priscus, and Heracleon, and his hands being fast cut off, than his privy member, he was beheaded, and his body burnt in a brazen Bull, R. Barus supplem. Chron. Nancl. and all his posterity destroyed with him. Silvester the second was a Conjurer, and was slain by the Devil, job. Marius. when he was saying Mass in the Chapel of the Cross of jerusalem. john the 13 committed Incest with two of his Sifters, and was slain at the last in the act of Adultery. Gregory the seventh put out the eyes of john the 15, and killed him with famine in the Castle of Saint Angelo, that he might reign in his stead; and having laboured mightily to advance the papal Sea, he was shortly cut off by a sudden death, and his body was drawn by the feet through the streets, Fascic. Temp. Otho 1. and pierced with spears by the Romans. Whereupon the History called Fosciculus tempor●●, noreth, that the Bishops of Rome were now adays slain, as in the Primitive Church, but were not made Martyrs as they, there was the like death, but not the like cause: thy suffered, as wailed lambs following the Lambr Christ, Plat. vit. pontiff. these as ran●●ing Wolves an empting a new Empire. Gregory the ninth died in despaise. Boniface the eighth died of madness. Paul the second, having yoted as much as ever did Hesiegabalus died of an Apoplexy. Alexander the sixth committed Incest with his own daughter, whom also he married to his son, Pasquil. Natal. comes Hist. l. 4. and was at the last poisoned by him. Pius the fourth died in the very bosom of his Concubine. Paul the third, when he had waxed old in a filthy course of life, died, crying out, my sin is always against me. And what should I reckon up more: whoso desireth to read further of them, let him look into Pelanus Dan. part 2. p. 467: and Parker of the Gross, who showeth what whores, and Ganymedes by name, several Popes have had. Sergius had Marozia. Gregory the seventh, Matildis. Alexander the sixth, Lucretia: all their daughters or Sisters. Sextus the fourth had for his Ganymede Riarius. julius' the second, Germanus. Leo the tenth, Hippolytus. julius' the third, Innocentius, etc. And Napier, who in his exposition upon the Rovelation reckoneth up the number of most notorious wicked Popes. Napier Revel. p. 138. There have been thirteen adulterers: Three common Stewes-haunters: four incestuous persons: eleven Sodomitical persons: seven erectors of Stews, and two and twenty Necromancers. And Henricus Echartus, who in his book called Papa Pharisaizans reckoneth up the vilest heresies, wherewith Popes have been tainted. Some Sadduces, some Montanists, Arrians, Nestorians, Eutychians, and Epicures, and patrons of wickedness. Innocent 4, defended for gold any luxury in the Clergy. Sixtus 4 gave liberty of Sodometry to the Cardinals. Alexander 4 sent into England for money, absolution to all perjured and wicked persons. Serg Paul. Are these things true? is it possible, that so many monsters should sit in the apostolic chair? yet it is true, the office doth not privilege from sin, also judas being an Apostle should not have been a Devil, As judas therefore was no prejudice to the Apostolical office, no more it may be are some wicked Popes to the religion by them maintained. Else by the like reason the wickedness of some of your Bishops & Ministers would be an argument against your religion. Paul. For the truth of these things I have alleged my authors; who in these sifting times would not have written thus, if they could have been disproved, And howsoever the wickedness of ordinary persons of the Clergy or Laity cannot minister an argument against their religion; yet when one, that is above all, & as an Oracle, giveth Edicts to all, and guideth the ship as he pleaseth, is notoriously wicked: there needs no greater argument of a wicked religion. Because the religion professed by us is not founded upon the Bishop or Minister, but upon God's Word; but the religion of the Church of Rome is founded upon the Pope, seeing it is their common Plea, that their Church is founded upon S. Peter, and his successors. Such then as the Pope is, such must the religion built upon him needs be; for so much as the building always standeth and falleth with the foundation. It is a silly shift to say, he may err, as he is a man in manners, but not as Pope in doctrine. For what ground can there be, that the holy Ghost will dwell to direct in the truth upon all occasions, in a nasty sty of unclean spirits? For how is the holy Spirit, if not by abominable sins, quenched and chased away? It is a privilege of such as fear God, Psal. 25.12. to be directed in the right; and not of Balaam, or Caiaphas, though they might extraordinarily prophesy as balaam's Ass spoke. Elywas. You must not think yet to bear us down thus, as Antichristian and abominable in our religion: no, no, although all were, as you have said, yet we want not the strongest argument of all, which must stop all mouths, the very finger of God, which hath often manifested itself, miracles wrought at Saints sepulchers, and images, by exorcising of Priests to the casting out of Devils, by Crosses, and Holy Water, which have often put the Devil to flight; and almost all points of our religion have been confirmed by miraculous revelations, to some holy persons of unsuspected credit, who have upon their faith affirmed the same. Paul. These miracles make much on your side indeed, to prove your religion Antichristian, Thes. Revel. and your Pope Antichrist, seeing it is said, that he should come with lying wonders, and should cause fire to come down from heaven, to these ducing of many? Miracles indeed had their use in the first propagating of the Gospel: 1 Cor. 14. but they were for unbelievers, smce they have ceased as needless, even as (to use the similitude of Gregory) the husbandman having newly planted an Orchard, watereth it: But when it is well rooted, he watereth it no more. Deut. 23. If any give a sign amongst the people of God, to prove any new matter in religion, not propounded in the written Word of God, he is pronounced a false Prophet. Moreover, many of your miracles have been proved cozenages, by which we may guess what the rest are: and for revelations, they may well be counted rather delusions of Satan, who is ready to tempt men according to their humours, and superstitious Monks to more superstitions. Serg. Paul. Are miracles then of so little force now? What meaneth our saviour Christ when he maketh this a sign of the true faith? Mark. 16.17. He that believeth, these signs shall follow, he shall cast out Devils, lay his hands upon the sick and heal them, etc. Paul. Miracles were very frequent indeed then, as was needful: but it was not to be expected, that these signs should follow always, when all countries and Nations being converted, the truth had gotten other sufficient testimony without signs. Only God doth something miraculously oftentimes for the credit of his Gospel in all ages, as by punishing extraordinarily the enemies of his truth, and blessing such as favour it. Thus the persecuting Emperors were extraordinarily judged; and the first Christian Emperor extraordinarily blessed, in that they all for the space of three hundred years lived most turbulent lives, had most unquiet estates, and almost all of them suffered by violent deaths, after a short reign: but Constantine the first Christian Emperor lived long, was every where victorious, and then reigned in peace, and died in peace. And of these miracles, blessed be God, we are full in this kingdom: for Queen Mary that stood for Popery, had but a short time, was extraordinarily disappointed of the hoped for successor of her own body, to the amazement of all, and so was cut off in the prime of her age. But Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory, had a long time, and the divine protection did compass her about as a shield against all treasons, and conspiracies; so that they were miraculously disappointed, and having reigned in peace, inticht her kingdom more than ever, abated the pride of her enemies, and mightily succoured other distressed Protestants, in a good old age she departed in peace. And since that time our gracious King, that now reigneth, whom God long preserve: how miraculously both he and we all under him have been delivered; and in what peace he hath and doth still govern such mighty Nations, like another Solomon in such tumultuous times: it is so well known, that I shall not need to speak. And that blow, which your Religion had at Blackfriars, October 26 of this year, by the only hand of God, both Teacher and people, to the number of about an hundred persons, being suddenly cut off at one of your Sermons: and the first, that hath been public to our Countrymen, since the suppression of Pope y, and that upon your November 5, at what time our overthrow (thankes be to God) was in another year in vain attempted: that, I say, the like whereof was never heard, was a very miracle to the confounding of your superstitions, which you thought by degrees to bring in here again, and to crowd out the truth. For howsoever we are all to tremble, and to take occasion to repent by God's judgements; yet when Corah, Dathan and Abiram with their company, are in the very offering of their incense destroyed; their service as a conspiracy is confounded, that all men may take heed of it, and the service of Moses and Aaron honoured. I could ascend higher to times past, and show miracles in the sufferings of our Martyrs, and in the judgements upon your persecutors: and I could enlarge myself to speak of the miraculous preservation of Geneva, and of the wonderful success of the Protestants in France in former times, and of some Kings there, and of the Bohemians in the time of john Husse: and it shall suffice to have given this taste at home, and so near hand. Elym. These outward things are no proofs, Eccl 9.2. seeing all things fall out alike unto all. But in the midst of all your good success, ye have not been able to enlarge your Religion, but only to a few countries' here in Europe: whereas the true Church is Catholic overspreading all Nations, which mark is in the Church of Rome, but not in yours. Paul. You abuse that Text of all things falling out alike to all. For that is spoken only of the godly, and the wicked, which are religious and care not for religion; and not of those that are zealous for their religion, be it true or false, when they are all bound to embrace the truth. For in this case God hath ever put a plain difference betwixt those of his people that have worshipped him aright, and that have been corrupted by idolatry, pouring down great and manifest blessings upon the one sort, and apparent curses upon the other, as it is at large set forth in the books of judges, Samuel and the Kings: thus as the great Umpire over all, determining for the Truth, and against Error. As for the Catholocisme, which you so much brag of; I have already showed, that Grecia a part of the world not the furthest remote, hath never wholly embraced your Religion; and by your cruclties your Church hath become so odious amongst the Indians, that they abhor it therefore; and it is notoriously known, that by your very images and faithlesness, the Turks have been hindered from ruining to Christianity, and so have the scattered jews. Our Church is apostolic, as hath been proved, and therefore Catholic, though the time is not yet come, since the reformation, of being enlarged to all parts, for so neither was Christianity upon the sudden, though carried forth by extraordinary instruments. But to yield the pretended universality of your Church so corrupted: what tendeth this unto indeed, but to prove your Church to be spiritual Babel, and your Pope to be the whore of Babel, seeing as she, so Rome sitteth as a Queen, and ruleth over the Nations of the earth. Serg. Paul. Fie, fie, Paul, this savoureth rather of spleen, then of sound judgement: for that Babylon is a persecuter of all Christians, and an open oppugner of Christ, and so may with good reason indeed be reputed heathen Rome, under the persecuting Emperors, but not Popish Rome, wherein Christ is honoured, and Christians are harboured. Paul. Worthy Sir, I speak out of no spleen, but advisedly, pitying the people, that being seduced by this whore, run headlong after her to their own destruction. For, that popish Rome and not heathen Rome is that Babel, I prove by these 2 invincible reasons. First, from her name, the great Whore, Reu. 17.1. vers. 5. and the mother of whordomes and abhomivations of the earth. Now whoredom in the Scripture phrase, as all know, is Idolatry, and yet every idolatrous nation is not said to be a whore, but only that where God hath been rightly worshipped, but his worship is become corrupt by the bringing in of Idols: for in this respect when judah and Israel are said to have played the whore, neither Babel nor Sodom, nor any other nation is taxed by this name. Whence is necessarily followeth, that Rome where God hath been truly worshipped, but since hath been by Idols corrupted, must be meant by Babel that great whore; and not heathen Rome, which was originally idolatrous. Again, the other part of the name, the Mother of Whordomes, implieth a place, from whence the idolatries of other Countries have sprung, such as was not Heathen Rome, which received her idolatries from other nations, as she subdued them, that they might the more willingly obey the Roman State; but Popish Rome, the very mother of all the Idolatries in all nations round about. Secondly, I reason from the end of this Babel. Revel 18 2. Babylon is fall'n and is become the habitation of Devils, the bold of all foul spirits, and a Cage of every unclean and hateful bird. And again, vers. 3. She shall be burnt with fire. Heathen Rome falling, this desolation hath not succeeded, but was more worthily inhabited then ever before, with Christians in stead of Ethnics, and therefore this Babel is not that Rome, but Rome that now is, whose judgements shall be according to her blessings, as the judgements of jerusalem, not to be once destroyed, and then repeopled again, but to be burnt with fire, never to be again re-edified, but to remain a perpetual spectacle of desolation for the glory of God's justice against such a sink of abominations. Serg. Paul. But you have not yet touched that note, which chief is pointed at as the cause of Babel's ruin. In her was found the blood of the Prophets, and of the Saints, Reu. 18.24. etc. What Prophets or Saints have been slain in Rome, since the Christians bare sway? She hath honoured many Saints with canonising them, but blood of Saints she hath shed none. Paul. By Prophets, as all know, are understood Preachers of the Gospel, and by Saints, godly and faithful people: for such in the holy Scriptures are called saints, the Pope canonised saints not being known then. And of these, what place in the world so full of the blood as Popish Rome, sith she hath been the bellows to blow up the coals, that have burnt thousands of most godly innocent people, and from her hath been derived the bloody cruelty which hath been exercised by the Potentates of the earth against the numberless shepherds and sheep of Christ's flock, to the destroying of them in most inhuman and barbarous manner. I thank you therefore for putting me in mind of this note; for by cruelty and bloodshed is the sin of the Church of Rome come to the height, neither doth any thing threaten so formidable judgments against her as the cry of so much innocent blood, shed with such exquisite torments, that if Nabuchadnezzar King of Babel were alive, he might be ashamed that he could invent no more long lingering tormenting death, but cast those that would not worship his Image, into a hot fiery furnace, so hot as that they might be presently dispatched, when as the King of this Babel hath an hundred ways more tormenting, to destroy his oppugners, and a far more terrifying course by imprisoning long, vilely dieting, cruelly racking, and at last burning them in a lingering paineprotracting fire. Serg. Paul. But it is not for their sanctity, that he dealeth thus with them, but for their Heresies, for which he thinketh them worthy of any torment, that others being by them warned, may take heed of falling into the like. Paul. This is his pretence indeed, but if it be heresy, than the pure milk sucked out of the breasts of the old and new Testament without any foreign mixture must be heresy, for such I have particularly showed in the beginning of this Colloquy all our doctrine to be. It is therefore for zeal and sanctity merely that we suffer, and if it were otherwise, yet the Pope must needs for this be Antichrist, and popery Antichristianisme. For who is Antichrist, but he that is against Christ? and who is against Christ, but he that teacheth and setteth men on to do against Christ's teaching? If Christ then had bidden Peter to put up his sword and not to strike therewith for his cause, in way of revenge, upon those that were contrary minded, is not he Antichrist that glorieth in striking with the sword? If Christ rebuked the rash zeal of those that would have called for fire from heaven to destroy such as refused to entertain Christ; are not they Antichristian that with fire & faggot destroy all? If Christ bade, let the tares and wheat grow together till the harvest, lest whilst the tares be pulled out, the wheat be plucked up also; is not he Antichrist that biddeth pluck up the tares howsoever, destroy the Heretics in France and in Germany by the sword, and in England with Gunpowder, though many Catholics perish together with them also? To say nothing of other things wherein he is plainly against Christ. Elym. You show your spite against his Holiness now indeed. How can you speak thus without blushing, when as it is plainly set forth, as the note of Antichrist, 1. john 4.1. that he denyeth Christ to have come in the flesh: and to confess Christ come in the flesh, the note of God's Spirit; Wherefore the Pope cannot be Antichrist. And if cruelty against Heretics be an argument to prove Antichrist, I pray let your rulers take part with him herein; seeing that in cruelty they are no whit inferior to Catholic rulers, if they exceed them not. For what holy Priests, and zealous desmits' have been spared from the sword, what private professors of the Catholic Religion from most cruel usage, imprisoning and spoiling since the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's reign, cill even of late, when the clemency of a more merciful King abhorring from all tyranny, hath made their yoke somewhat easier? Paul. You show either your ignorance or wilfulness in alleging that text of Saint john. For who knoweth not, that there are more Antichrists then one? some are open professed enemies to Christ; of whom St. john speaketh, that those may easily be known by their denying of Christ; but there is one called the Antichrist, which I have also set forth, that sitteth in the Temple of God, and cometh with all deceivableness, which things could not agree unto him, if he plainly denied Christ; and this Antichrist your Pope may well be, notwithstanding his outward profession of Christianity. And for your reply to draw in our Governors into the same predicament for their cruelty. I wonder, that you and your fellows are not ashamed to broach so many notorious lies, as you have done touching all manner of cruelties exercised here in England, against your sect, when as since the beginning of that most blessed Queen's reign (though there was just cause, and but your own measure should have been meted to you again, if all your sect had been rooted out with fire and sword without partiality) not one Papist hath been put to death for his religion. But because by experience it was found dangerous to the State, to suffer Priests and jesuits to come into the land, their coming being for treason and rebellion, they were proceeded against as traitors that presumed contrary to the Law to enter this Kingdom. And lest there should be danger in the rest, they have been confined and fined, as common policy requireth, the more they were kept under and restrained, the security of the State being the more; and contrariwise the more their wealth and liberty was, the greater was the danger of the Kingdom. Wherefore here hath been no persecution of Religion, but of rebellion, no execution done upon conscience, but upon treason, as your own conscience cannot but witness with us. Elym. There is no end, I see of wording with you, so many are your shifts and colours at every turn: but I hope you have seen your best days, & both you & your religion shall now down as fast, as ever it came up, and the Catholic religion shall be again in every place restored, and then the deed will prove the truth, and that your heresy is not of God, for than it could not be resisted. Wherefore (most noble Governor) let not this Heretic seduce you, but provide for your honour, peace, and safety by joining with Catholic Princes, who alone almost rule all Europe, and would be glad, to see you become a good Catholic also, and so to prosecute with all entire love, honour & estimation. Paul. Now you show yourself in your colours indeed a true child of the Devil, tempting by worldly honours and respects, as he did Christ. But (most excellent Sergius) your wisdom I hope is such, that you will easily reject these temptations as Christ did the Devils, with it is written, Psal. 20.8. They which trust in horses and chariots, or in worldly Princes shall fall down, but such as trust in God shall stand up steadfastly. For mine own part I doubt not, but the eager putting on of popish Potentates of late days to overthrew the truth at once, is a presage of the ruin of that superstition being even at the doors. For so the Christian Religion being most endangered in the days of Eugenius, when the adversaries sought to destroy it all at once; his rage was turned to be fatal to Gentilism, being immediately after so put down as that it was never able to make head again. Serg. Paul. God forbidden, that I through any fear or hope should be drawn to that, which I so plainly now see to be dangerous to the soul. No, no, (thou bewitching Elymas) I have given too much care to thy deceivable reasons to incline to so favourable an opinion of your Antichristianisme. From henceforth I charge you to come at my Court no more, for I will no more have communion with you, or such as you are, but only as I am commanded, I will as much as in me lieth have peace with all men. And thou Paul, (the true messenger of God) shalt at all times be welcome unto me. Many such Preachers God bless me and my Dominion with all, for they are truly the servants of God, and all that will be moved the rather for my countenance, let them hearken unto them, and fly all communion with sophistical Jesuits and Priests: So shall I account them good and loyal subjects to me in whom my heart shall trust, and they shall escape the greatest and the most bewitching danger of the soul that ever was. FINIS.