¶ A Pleasant Dialogue, concerning Physic and Physicians.  
¶ Imprinted at London, by john Charlewood. 1580.   

❧ A Delectable Dialogue. Wherein is contained a Pleasant Disputation between two Spanish Gentlemen, concerning Physic and Physicians, with sentence of a learned Master given upon their argument.  
Translated out of the Castlin tongue. By T. N.   

❧ To the worshipful Master Thomas Fowler Esquire. T. N. Wisheth hearts desire.  
THe Christians, (Woorshypfull Sir) which use to travail toward jerusalem. And also the Mahomettes, which wander toward their holy place Mecha, which is the burial plot of their Advocate and false Prophet Mahomet: Use to carry with them Scrips for their provision of victuals, and other furniture. And where those pilgrims carry severally but one: in my Peregrination, I carried two, the one for my victuals, and the other to keep such books as were given me b●●he way for charity.  
And now of late I chanced to turn over my Papers, among the which I found this little Dialogue, concerning Physic and Physicians, written in the Castlyn tongue by a learned Gentleman, called Pedro Mexia, who sometime was Chronicler to the late Emperor Charles the fifth. And then calling to memory the variety of man's inclination, how some are inclined and have delight to refresh weariness, in reading & conferring with notable writers, other some have great pleasure in comfortable Music, and others in the conversation of faithful and loving friends.  
And where I am certain that your recreation is often times among books, and especially in reading of traveler's works, as well by land as Sea. Yea and your own person, having passed the Ocean Sea. I may boldly say with no great pleasure: yet your Worship doth not repent you thereof.  
I therefore am now the more bolder to offer this little pamphlet unto you. Praying your worship to accept the small gift, and to remember the poor old woman who offered two mites▪ her gift was small, but yet with an exceeding good heart and will, and the Almighty grant your gentle hearts desire.  
Your worships to command. T. N.   

❧ The Argument of the Dialogue.  
TWo learned men Gentlemen, met by chance, the one of them speaketh much evil of Physicians: and holdeth opinion, that neither Physician, nor Art of medicine ought to be, but that men should be cured with use and experience. The other doth commend also and defend, both Medicine & Physicians. And last of all, the matter is decided by a learned man, called Master Velasques, very notably.  
FINIS.   

Interlocutores. ❧ jasper, Bernardo, Don Nunio, Master Velasques. jasper. 
IT should seem, that we espied the one the other, by our coming out, and meeting at one season.  Bernardo. 
Now truly you say well. But whether wander you.  jasper. 
If you command not other ways: I was determined to go visit Don Nunio, and to keep him company for one hour, for as yet he is weak of his infirmity past, and goeth not out of his doors.  Bernardo. 
By my froth, and I came from home with the same intent.  jasper. 
Many times it doth so happen, the will of two men to move unto one thing, being a sunder in divers places, yea & the one to remember the other, at one instant in such wise: that it should seem the minds to understand each other.  Bernardo. 
By the spiritual parts, it is no marvel though in some thing we are like Angels: who understand without speaking, and communicate their conceits the one with the other.  jasper. 
How so ever it be, sith God moved us both at one time to meet, in a good hour be it, and let us go together to make our visilation.  Bernardo. 
Let us go through the next street for this is pestered, with the merchants works.  jasper. 
You say well, but look what a fair front he hath built to his house, certainly of late the building in this City of Civil is greatly mended, for within these ten years, their buildings are most beautiful toward the street, with many fair windows of divers fashions.  Bernardo. 
Troth it is, ye and many ancient houses are re-edified, and although every one can not do as he would: yet truly the amendment is great. But in one thing I see it not, and that is, in their low buildings, for very few build higher than one story, whereupon the houses remain moist and of small majesty. And therefore strangers which come from Barselona, and other Cities where their buildings are of three stories high: can not away with ours, nor yet the buildings of this City content them.  Bernardo. 
You say troth, but it were not wisdom to comply with beauty and bravery, and to commit notorious hurt, both to health and life, in this country it is not convenient to build high, and it hath been both advise, & discretion, not to do so, for naturally the situation of this City is hot and moist, and to resist the heat is a principal remedy, the air is fresh, which ordinarily runneth in the Summer, it is therefore needful that the houses be open, & not very high, to be visited with the air, and for this cause our ancestors used this building, for certainly the high buildings are more hotter than the low, and more unwholesome in Summer season for want of air, as we know some that are troubled with this defect, also it is necessary in this place, the Edifices to be low, for remedy of the great moisture, that both streets and houses may be visited of the sun and the air, so that if the houses and Edifices here in this City were high: they should be more cold & moist in winter, and more hotter in Summer. By mean whereof very unwholesome, for the moisture is so great that always we must procure that the sun have entrance into all places of our houses, if it were possible all day long, the which could not be if the houses and lodgings were high. And also the cold here is not so great to consume the moisture, as it is in Castillia & other parts, and where great cold is: yet the heat of the sun is necessary, although in Summer it be great, to consume the over much moisture. And therefore I believe that our forefathers used to this end, to make the streets broad, as now the most are, yea and in our days, shades and penthouses were commanded to be taken away for that purpose, where by a notorious commodity and health hath followed:  Bernardo. 
Truly your reason is certain and natural, & although some times I have mused thereon, yet I was never so well satisfied as now I am: and I think hitherto, the same respect hath been, and if it had not, it is just that it be hereafter. But it seemeth unto me, that high Chambers are not good lodging, nor yet needful for this place in the winter, which is not cold, and the heat of Summer exceeding hot. As for experience, noble men which have high houses, do seldom dwell in them, for those causes alleged: but rather keep them to lay corn in, and for lodging of their servants, rather than for other purpose, although in Castillia such high buildings are most wholesome: so that our houses being low: the cause was not for want of knowledge: but rather came of a good foresight. Let us now see how Don Nunio will build his house, which hath a good beginning, & here I see much stuff prepared for the work.  jasper. 
Let us understand what he doth before we alight from our Moils: for sick persons may not be visited at all seasons.  Bernardo. 
No but yet it seemeth by yonder Moil that Master Velasques is with him: therefore let us alight, and I will lead the way.  jasper. 
God give your Worship health. 
Entrance of the gentlemen.   Don Numo. 
I kiss your Mastership's hand, and am very glad that ye are comen at such time, to find Master Doctor Velasques here, for if ye two will speak Latin he will understand ye, or else if ye will argue any matter (as ye were wont to do) ye have a good and present judge.  Bernardo. 
No sir, for now we come very conformable like good neighbours, and we have not whereupon to Dispute, if you throw not in a bone as you were wont to do.  Master. 
Senor Don Nunio, Doth not evil therein. For always good fruit proprocéedes out of a good discord.  Bernardo. 
At the least sir you have small need thereof: for it is evident that you teach us all. But notwithstanding our talk, sir, how do you feel yourself.  Don Nunio. 
Truly as yet I am very weak, for my disease principally hath been of a long continuance, and also I was let blood three times, therefore I cannot so soon recover strength, and I have also an exceeding dryness, remaining in my mouth so that I cannot abstain from drinking, and thinking myself never satisfied, and surely I believe that the Physicians hath not understood the secrets of my disease, to cure it accordingly  Bernardo. 
Sir believe me I know a man that would not be offended with the dryness you speak of, for on a time the same man having an exceeding burning fever and dryness. The Phisission would have given him certain things to myttigate the heat and drought: unto whom he answered very gravely. 
A pretty example.  Master Doctor, I pray you do what you can to ease my extreme heat. But as for my thyrstinesse, I would be contented to remain with all.  Don Nunio. 
Yea, but I am not so great a friend of drink: for when I am in health, I flee from the things that should cause thyrstinesse. But truly the extreme dryness which I have now, came of a Purgation that was given me.  jasper. 
Yea, and therefore I defy Physicians, for I promise you, if you had not purged yourself: you had been sooner whole, and not now so weak,  Master. 
Why sir, the Physicians know no better way to cure.  jasper. 
Marry sir, and that way, I would they knew not, for it is not convenient to be used.  Don Nunio. 
If ye had seen what a disputation here was, about what should be given to purge me with all, and about the letting of me blood, ye would have said somewhat.  jasper. 
Sir, I needed not to see the thing, for I have other causes more sufficient, to approve that which I mean to speak of: Long agone I knew how the Physicians very seldom agree in their opinions, yea, and I was about to say, that fewer times they happen to do the patiented good.  Bernardo. 
Then must I say also, that you have for a custom, seldom times to speak well, either of Advocates or Physicians. But say what you list, you shall, will or nill, trust the one with your life, and the 
A pretty conclusion.  other with your goods.  jasper. 
Then accursed be I, if I do so, at the least, to put my life in the physicians hands, for in all my life time hitherto, I was never let blood, nor yet have had any physicians counsel, as long as I have gone abroad in the world. And I find myself better in health, and more sounder than you, who always hath to do with such kind of men.  Bernardo. 
Yea and therefore you brag, but I promise you, if any disease should take you vehemently: you would then cry out for the Physicians.  jasper. 
It might so be, that the infirmity might be such to deprive men of my wit, and so to demand help of Physicians, but as long as my memory serveth, fear not that I commit any such madness: for sithence God be praised I have lived 45. years without them, yea, and have been helped of some infirmities, with wholesome diet & good regiment: I mean not now to prove new inventions.  Dun Nunio. 
Now truly Signior Master, this fire beginneth to kindle, for these Gentlemen are armed for the purpose.  Bernardo. 
I am not disposed to contend. But yet I will always defend the truth.  jasper. 
And the same shall never want unto me, therefore if you have any thing to say, begin when you list, for I am ready to answer.  Bernardo. 
Truly Signior jasper, it seemeth a merry toy, to call medicine a new invention, being as you know the most ancient Art in the world, approved and admitted by God himself, & by men. Have you not read in Ecclesiastes, that God created medicine of the earth, & that the Wise man should not slay from it, for the medicine doth exalt & honour the Physician, & for medicine he shall be praised in presence of kings & mighty men. Also our Authors and human works, maketh no less account of medicine, although they differ in whom was the inventor thereof, yet all agreeth to reverence & honour all such. Some say & hold opinion, that Mercury was the first, others say Apis, other affirm Aposto, & some Aesculapius: Homero was also honoured for a God, & fountain of good writers, in many places, he I say commends medicine: yea, & did not let to show; & name medicinal herbs, & how medicine hath been esteemed of Emperors and kings, you know better than I. You have also read what reward Alexander the great gave unto Aristovolus Physician: and king Ptolemy to Erasistrato. Yea, & the incredible stipend & fees which they had in that time of Emperors in Rome, whereof Pliny and others make mention: In conclusion, look what a treasure health is, which passeth all worldly joys, the felicity of the soul excepted: yea, and contrary wise, how bitter is infirmity. So that these things considered, you may see what honour is due to medicine, that conserveth us in the one, & keepeth us from the other.  Master. 
Although it hath not been much which Signior Bernardo hath spoken, yet his study hath not been small, as appeareth by his explication.  jasper. 
You have played the good Retorician, and sithence you have taken the pain, I will do the like. But I would first you should understand, that I condemn not the good Medicine: for I told you that I had cured myself with only good diet, and regunent, yea, and also with some herbs, and other things whereof I have experience. But I condemn the evil Physicians, who long agone made both Art and Merchandise, inventing and seeking strange and violent medicaments, filling & darkening, with their opinions and Cawtelles, the faculties which most clear and simply aught to be, and of himself is and was in his beginning, when men cured one another for charity, and not for interest, and then they cured with herbs and virtuous simples experimented, and not with venomous compositions that now are used, which you know not what they be, nor from whence they come, nor to what use they serve, nor yet how many they be, because they are so many that they are out of number.  
The Medicine which is commended in Ecclesiastes, is the same that was used in those good days. But the Medicine invented by those which you say were holden for Gods, because they discovered the virtue & property of herbs, stones fruits, and other things applied them, to the Passions, sores, and infirmities, without making them Arts, rules, and precepts, as afterward malice & covetousness of men brought to pass, so that before that time, we found nothing written of medicine. Hipocrates by authority of Marcus Varro, according unto Pliny affirmeth: was the first that wrote the precepts of medicine. The space of, 600. years, the Romans defended them selves from Physicians, and would in no wise suffer them in Rome: since which time they never lived so sound. True it is, that in the time when Enullius, and Marcus Libio were Consuls, which was after the foundation of Rome. 535 years: I know not by whom persuaded, they admitted a Greek Physician Pelotones, called Archagatus, unto whom they gave a house & public stipend, and as a new thing at the beginning, he pleased some men. But after they had experience of his letting blood, and his Cauteries, with strange inventions of curing: both he and others that were newly come, were banished, by the authority and counsel of the great Cato Censorinus, who lived, 85. years, because you may consider what want he had of Archagatus, or of any other. After Cato his death, the time running with covetousness, ambition, and other vices, than entered Physicians into Rome.  
So that it plainly appeareth, before that time the Romans had, diet, medicines, and a way to cure with all, according to experience, without using any tyranny, for each neighbour showed unto other, the things that he had proved: in those days I say, love and charity cured, and not covetousness and poison.  
The Romans only used not this good order, but also the babylonians, who were learned. Estrabo, and Herodotus, write that, they had not known Physicians, and therefore they used (when any happened to be sick) to bring him forth into the open street, because his neighbours and friends (who had any experience in such diseases) should give their council and advise.  
The self same order was used among the Egyptians and Portyngalles, after those golden days, Signior Bernardo, Physicians crept into the houses of Emperors & Kings, among whom, some were famous, as Hipocrates, who was the fountain and father of them all, and after him came Aristogenes into service with king Antigonus of Macedonia, and Asclepiades his familiar, who was froend of great Pompetus. Antonius Muga was entertained of the Emperor Octavianus. Also both the Appollodors, of whom Pliny writeth: Cornelio Celso the Roman: the famous Erasistratus who by his singular knowledge, understood how the disease of Antiochus was undecent love, with his Mother in Law. Also Galenus, who now is honoured, and called Prince of Physicians, with many other which now I will not name. But this I know, notwithstanding, that after Physicians began to multiply, man's life began to shorten. And in those days the ancient Romans, lived in more health than all these Princes, who entertained the Physicians with wages, and other excessive rewards: And if you will not believe me, let Alexander the great, who you brought for an example, say his opinion, for he lived not full forty years. Let also the old grey bearded men of the Mountains and villages, which never knew Physicians, speak their mind. And let the young men of the City, declare also their opinions.  
But do you know what was the cause to admit Physicians in Rome, the great disorder whereof I spoke, because men would not temper, and cure themselves according to the rule of their Ancestors, they would needs give the charge of their health to them that knew it not. Whereupon, as Pliny affirmeth, great hurt followed to the health of man: for why, they left the care of themselves, and gave credit to Physicians for their health: and the Physicians for their part, cared no more but for the interest & profit, exalting their Art, and making there of Merchandise, yea, and to give a more comely visage to their new Science, that none might know the secrets thereof: they began to flee from common and true renredies, and to use compounds, mixtures, fruits, roots, herbs, never before seen nor heard of, to deceive and bewitch the people, with the names and hidden properties, and for the common remedies, they sought strange, casting clean aside the true way, and sticked fast to their new devices. Here also began the distilling of Waters, both of clean and filthy things. Here began syrups, both sweet and sour, some clear, some dark, made of such conceits, that the Devil himself would scarcely imagine what thing it were.  
another devise also, is to cause us to eat gold, stones, yea, and iron, like unto Oystrages against all nature. Here also began your Mytradate, and compound Treacle, made of above 54. things and some of them rank poison: if every of them were good of himself, the incomportable company of the one with the other, maketh an horrible poison.  
The which Pliny almost 1800. years past, saith, was made by ostentation and appearance of his Art, for it is impossible Nature to be seen, nor experience known, nor the temper and concordaunces of so many things discordant, no it can not be. So that of these things and other like, they have made experience in man's body, with such audacity, and at all adventures. So that in lieu of giving health: they happen manytymes to kill the patiented, yea, and in recompense thereof, to have his money for their labour: and that which worst is, there is no punishment for them. Tell me I pray you, what Physician have you seen chastened, either for the death, or laming of any man?  
Finally, Signior Bernardo, the malice of man hath spoiled the best thing in the world, which is in making the thing natural, an obscure Artificer: charity an interest, mercy, covetousness, darckening reason so much, as though none could cure but Physicians.  
jesting at common experience, and extolling with persuasion their Art, or Mystery, yea, even to the names of things, giving them new barbarous and strange terms, saying, both the Greek and Latin names are well known.  
Also in their writing they have invented Carraters and Signs, not to be understood, but of whom they deal withal for their Drugs: so that they procured by all means to darken the thing which ought to be common, and known of all men.  
Then what shall I say of the diversity of their doctrine and opinions. The Alarbes differ from the Greeks, so that among themselves, they are not conformable, neither the one nor the other. The order and manner of curing their Auicena, differeth from Galenus, & those of antiquity, even so much that it seemeth an other thing: nor yet those of our time cure like Auicena, nor like the other, for now all consistéth in inventions and opinions. Yea, if you call two or three together, you shall find each to be singular in his judgement. But when they agree, iwis it is to the great peril of the Patient: if you hear each of them by himself it is a miracle to find them conformable, yea, & their receipts shall be divers and contrary each to other: It shall not need that I make any further recital thereof, for daily you see it before your eyes, thereforem I will not weárie myself in the rehearsal.  Master Velasques. 
It should seem that these Gentlemen ●ame purposely to debate this matter, & herein to show their learning & knowledge, because I see them so earnest: therefore we may do well to cut of, and abbreviate their communication.  Don Nunio. 
No Sir, that were not just, that Physicians should thus remain, without defence. Yea, and for my part, I do greatly rejoice to hear this talk. Therefore let the conclusion be, that sithence each of them hath had his turn, although Signior jasper; hath been somewhat long in his discourse, let each of them have another course, and no more, which shall be as one that writeth his mind, and an other that replieth in our judgement court. And then I am to desire you Signior Master, to give sentence, who hath the right.  jasper. 
I for my part am content, reserving the benefit of appellation, if the sentence be not given in my favour.  Bernardo. 
And I for my part am also agreed having so great a confidence in my justice, and also in the judgement of Signior Master, by mean whereof I bind myself to his judgement and sentence.  Master Velasques. 
A hard matter is commended unto me. But notwithstanding, I will say what God shall give me to understand, to make an end of your contention, seaving liberty to each of you to do what ye please.  Don Nunio. 
Me thinketh Signior Bernardo, is ready for the purpose: begin on God's name.  

¶ Hear followeth the answer of Signior Bernardo.  Bernardo. 
AT the beginning of our talk, I thought Signior jasper that you jested. But when I heard you touch in Doctrine and Histories: then I knew that your argument was in earnest. And therefore will I answer accordingly: that which I understand of the things which you have spoken, is in conclusion, that you think there should be no Phisions in the world: at the least, such as were known to be, and live of that vocation.  
But rather you would have us all to be Physicians, and to cure one an other: also you would not have medicine by Art confounded, in Science nor Philosophy: But only to follow experience and conference, and the voice of the people, as though we should live in the Mountains where no policy nor discretion should be used.  
These two principal points I mean to overthrow, as a beginning to the process, and then to answer some of the other mallices which you have spoken. In the first point touching Physicians, it is a clear case that you have no reason, for the name of a Physician is holy and amiable, and ought not to be odious unto you: seeing Christ our redeemer did not despise both to be called and holden for a Physician, when he was speaking of himself: saith he then, for the whole folk needeth not the Physician. And again, when he cured the eyes with clay and spittle: and when he appointed for medicine of the Samaritan● Oil & Wine, yea, he letted not to cure and heal infinite infirmities: and the like commanded his Disciples, for S. Paul Doctor of the people, took both person and office of a Physician, when he wrote to Timothens, willing him to drink Wine to comfort his stomach. Saint Luke the Evangelist did name himself a Physician, and letted not to give this Office unto the Apostles. The Angel raphael would also use this Office, when he gave a receipt unto Tobias, wherewith he should cure and recover the sight of his eyes. So that in this point you have no way to contend, because the name of a Physician is profitable in the world. And if there have been some Physicians both false and covetous, and also have used of such things whereof you have enlarged, and I thereof ignorant, you ought not judge nor believe them. But notwithstanding, the wise and good ought not to be cast of, it is a meet thing that there should be particular and appointed persons of so high an Office and mystery, and not rather, as you would to have all men Physicians, and so to walk in confusion and inconstancy, with ignorance of the people. Truly this way is not only unprofitable, but also a thing impossible.  
The example also of the Romans, wherewith you help yourself, who were. 600. years without Physicians: I say with you, that it is true. But yet through simplicity and want of knowledge, as they were at that time ignorant of learning, and other Arts, so were they wanting of Medicine. But after they understood what Doctrine & Science was: and had received the same of the Greeks, they then embraced also medicine, as one of the most necessary things. And likewise the Masters, who had sight therein: and even so did the other Nations of whom you spoke of. And where in the second point, you will not that we follow or observe precepts, nor yet to have Art nor foundation of Science, nor you will us not to follow reason & cause, but only experience which you allow: and therefore you judge evil of the form and order which is observed in medicines and their compound, whereof I do not little marvel.  
first, you know how naked experience is in Science holden for doubtful, and consideration & judgement doth change in years, with complexion, with time, place, and many other things. And therefore it is necessary for him that will cure, to know these differences, the secret cause and discovery of the infirmity: for it is a thing unpossible the knowledge of curing unto him that knoweth not whereof, and where the disease did spring. It is therefore needful that he understand the composure and complexions of human bodies, their humours, & which of them beareth rule, and what disease thereof may grow. For, without doubt, the cure must otherwise be handled, if you prevent the infirmities of all four humours, as many Wise men affirm. And contrariwise, if the cause be in only moisture, as Eropilus holds opinion: according to the writing of Cornelius Celsor and others, or in the spirits, as Hipocrates thought.  
Yea, and also otherwise, if it be as Erasistratus judged, that the blood turning backwards, to the arteries or veins of the spirits cause inflammation, and the inflammation causeth the moving which we see in the Fever. So that he shall know how to cure, which reacheth to the original & true cause. And therefore you may consider, whether Art and study of Philosophy, be requisite or no: so that of necessity, the causes of infirmities ought to be known. And also to understand the quality and property of metals, stones, trees, fruits, herbs, roots, and also of beasts, and all other things which may serve to the use of medicine, to avoid error in their application. I do not deny, but rather affirm that experience is profitable. But I presume and am bold to justify, that there can be no experience without some reason or cause: nor yet I think that our Ancestors did use their simples at all adventures, without consideration. But rather I judge that by speculations and foresight in things convenient, they made their experience, the which first they conjectured to be good. Therefore honour in this case ought not to be given to experience, but rather to wisdom and counsel, which was the chiefest part. Nowbeit, daily are discovered divers kinds of infirmities, unto whom experience and use can not serve, because there can be no experience of a thing not known. So that of necessity it is needful to know by Art and doctrine the obscure causes of the vice and corruption, which the humours and members may suffer in a man, besides these that are plain and open, as cold, heat, hunger, replexion, and other like.  
He also that will be a Physician, should understand what thing is actions, or natural operations, and what are those by the which we give and take the spirit of breath, we eat and drink, the place of digestion: and how the substance of our food is divided to give strength to our bodies in all places. Also it is needful to be understood, why our Pulses have continual moving, and what is the reason and cause of sleep & watching: without knowledge whereof, it seemeth that he should not know how to preserve and cure infirmities. Besides this, men suffer great pains and passions in the inward parts and members of the body, which is a thing needful to be known, & to have seen Anothomyes' of some dead bodies, to have marked & considered the colour, the figure, the bigness, the order, and the hardness & softness of them all. Also the variety and division of the same members, among themselves, which do join together, or how they give place & receive: As we read that Erophilus and Erafistratus did, requiring for the same purpose, men that were condemned to death, to prove experience. For it is a plain case, that when any grief or interior hurt happeneth, and not known, how or where it is, nor yet to apply outward medicine, for the uncertainty of the inward grief, nor the nature & reason thereof. And finally, for avoiding of 〈◊〉, I say that there are many necessary things appertaining to a good Physician, yea, and to declare them only▪ it is requisite that such a one be a learned Philosopher. How much more to know how to put them in ure, insomuch, that Hipocrates saith, that a good Physician ought to know the disease past, & to understand the cure present: and also to pro●osticate the thing to come. So that Signior lasper, if you have hearkened well unto me, you will not let to confess that it is a thing necessary for Physicians, to have both rules and precepts, and that they be grounded on Sciences & Artes. And as this is a thing, that can not be common: it is therefore necessary to have particular men Physicians, who ought to be honoured and esteemed as always they have been. And it is not sufficient that you allege, that vices and disorders brought Physicians to Rome, for although it had so been, it seemed a special gift of God, who having sent them diseases, did also send them remedy: And again, contend and say what you list, the Physicians doth not counsel any to distemper themselves: but when any happeneth to be dystempered, than the strange is their own proper and true names from their origen, which is not vulgarly understood. And where you speak of their Letters & receipt, it may be accounted a jest, & a thing not worthy of answer: because you know that such breviations are used to avoid perplexity, for every Science hath his terms, and breviations in writing.  
And again, where you touched their variety in judgement, the discharge is evident, considering the wits & judgements of men are divers, so that with a good & whole intention, they may be contrary in their sentence, and with small peril in medicine: considering that one disease may be cured by divers ways. And by this means Physicians may vary, and by sundry ways come to one end, which is the cure & health of the Patient. Now in this order, your evil suspicion & opinion is dashed and broken in pieces, by the sufficient reasons which I have declared. And I think without any more contention, you ought to cease & leave of your are guing, and because I hope you will so do: I will not now proceed any further, although I have matter enough.  Dun Nunio. 
By my faith Signior Master, although I understand little, yet me thinketh that Signior Bernardo hath showed himself a valiant Now Be It, so that I am now on the physicians side, I know not what Signior jasper judgeth.  Master Velasques. 
What he thinketh he will say: for as yet I ought not to speak, because ye have made me judge, his turn abideth for him, he hath also wit and years to answer for himself.    

¶ The second part of the Dialogue of Physicians, wherein the matter is concluded and ended.  jasper. 
I Am clean contrary to the opinion of Signior Bernardo, and will not consent to any of his allegations: nay rather, I swear by my conscience, that his own reason hath confirmed me more in my Physician remedieth the same.  
And where you murmur, of the invention of Syrruppes and distilled waters, and of the compounds of medicines, you are the more to be blamed. For rather the wit and advice of the inventor is to be praised, and to receive the same as a good gift, & mercy of God, who daily giveth us new remedies and medicines.  
And if in old time they wanted knowledge to make syrups, and distill wholesome waters, both sweet & pleasant, as now are used: I say therein, the advantage is ours, and are therefore more bound to be thankful to Physicians, for so profitable and sweet a thing: and because it is a new invention, it is not therefore to be despised. For likewise in old time they knew not was Amber Musk, nor Sivitte, which are most sweet and excellent Odours: And also the Mytridate and compound Treacle, which you reprehend. The reason is, because you understand not, neither the composition, nor the virtue of the things whereof it is made, nor yet the effects thereof.  
And where you say that Physicians ought to be punished as mankyllers, you are therefore worthy of great reprehension, to presume that they of malice would kill any, ne yet through ignorance they cannot do it. But for their strait examination I do not mystic: but rather hold it for a thing convenient, notwithstanding, the Physician using well his office in the observing of Rule & Art, and the Patient should happen to die: he ought not to be punished for his death. And of the same opinion was Plato, appearing in the ninth Dialogue of his Laws.  
And also where Physicians procure to be paid for their pains, they ought not therefore to be reprehended, sithence that by the Law of God and man, the labourer ought to have his hire. God also commandeth, that the Ox that freadeth out the Corn, be not mustod. Moreover, I may say, that of too much sharpness of wit, nay rather of malice, where you presume that of industry they darcken their Art, with strange names of things: for why, if you understood them: you would say that those names which seemed unto you strange opinion. And before I had heard him speak: I was not so great an enemy of Physicians, as now I am. But whether I have reason or no, by mine answer ye shall hear.  
first, I say you have well understood my desire, wherein I would have no office of Physicians, in a common weal, at the least, such as should cure for money. But that we should one counsel & cure an other. And also we shall know & use such remedies, which are already known & proved by ancient men of experience, and to stick unto the same. If this thing might so be, although there were some inconveniences: yet truly, they should be much less than those which proceed from the good and evil Physicians. By means of their purges & repurges, bleedings and rebleeding: yea, and you should have as small a diffyculty therein, if determynatly we should begin to dispute, as to speak one language, and to have one custom which are ancient in our Country, yea, and the great use of old time, should be as easy to cure the diseased, as in these our days.  
So that here is proof and argument to see, that for the one part of medicine, which according to their own opinion is the principal, which they call ●suall: that is to say, to know of what the Patient ought to feed, how, & what it should be, more or less, the experience, use and counsel which they have among them selves, and now so common to men: whereby without either counsel or receipt of the Physician, men know what to eat, how & in what quantity. And such rule wisemen dare use and observe. I speak not of such, who will voluntarily be disordered. Why alas, if in this, which is the chiefest point, we can live without tutors? why should we not then bring to pass, the use of curing should be as well known among us? for why, the difficulty or peril should be no greater, as I will show, after that I have made answer to your argument.  
And therefore will I change the form of answering, because we are contrary in opinion. You mean to defend the Physicians; of time present, saying: that Christ our redeemer, did compare himself to Physicians, and that truly is as much, as to defend the cruelty of the Lions, because they are also called Lions. Besides this, your argument is very weak, because your comparison of Christ to a Physician doth not so well fit your purpose. So that I say, you may make them more particular: yet you shall see the Christ doth rather approve my opinion than yours, for he did not appoint among his Disciples, one nor two to heal and cure: but generally, commanded them all unto whom he gave especial grace, to cure and make whole, as you yourself affirm: so that this allegation maketh for me. And where you speak of the Angel raphael, and S. Paul: truly those holy Persons, sent not the sick folk to the Physicians of the City to be cured: but rather they themselves took the cure in hand, being none of that vocation: and how I pray you? iwis not with Purgations, nor blood letting, nor with your Diacatulitions, nor Skamonea: but the one with a little Wine, whereof he had experience, & the other with the virtue of a Fish, which God gave him for that purpose. And therefore, Master mine, sithence that this Office is common to Angels and to men: it is not just that two or three should ingrate the same, like tyrants in the Town: because forsooth they are learned men as you say, as I would to God they were: But if they be, in good time be it, for I say not that learning hurteth any. But I say that for the use of curing, it is not needful, for I hold not such things necessary, but only for the knowledge of clear and evident things. For why, it is not greatly material to know the first and secret origen of a disease, but rather to know what doth help: But the inquisition and intelligence of secret and hidden causes, and the knowledge of their natural operations, and the rest which you say is necessary to be known, I hold for a vain thing, and also impossible.  
For beside, that the secrets of nature are incomprehensible, it is plain that this is so, for why, those that presume to know this matter, are Physicians and Philosophers, who are divers and contrary in their opinions, and can give no certain rule nor resolution.  
For how would you that the Physician should know the radical cause, and first origen of all infirmities, their opinions being so variable, as you yourself have declared.  
And why should I more believe Hipocrates (who affirmeth the substance of the matter to be in the spirits:) than Erasistratus, who attributeth it to the turning backward of the blood to the arteries? And why should I credit more these, than others, who assigned other principles? And how will you know how disguestion is made in the stomach. Truly, I for my part, dare no more credit the one, than the other. Seeing there are so many opinions, upon the case, for some say that the food boileth with heat, others say that it rotteth by way of attrition & grinding, others denieth them both, & each giveth such reasons, as seem true: so that following the opinion of any of them, the cure shallbe particular & clean contrary the one to the other. So that seeing the causes & origen so difficult, the certeynty seemeth unpossible, & I see no cause for a man to weary himself therein. But only to content and serve ourselves with the remedy that experience hath taught us. And considering that it importeth not to know what caused the infirmity, but only the way to cure the same: Nor yet I will not trouble myself to know how digestion is made, but chiefly to know what meat is soon digested, & what is good to help the same. Without vering myself to know the cause why: nor yet I pass not to know what is the cause of shortness of breath, but rather the way to remedy it without pain: I will neither know, who moveth, nor how the artyres move: but only understand what signifieth the disordered moving. And also it maketh not for your purpose, that you allege for new diseases that may happen, for when any such thing do happen, he that cureth, ought not to imagine what the origen was, seeing that of common things he is ignorant, as before I have declared. For it is sufficient to consider how the like infirmity hath been cured, & without medicine, and so by experience, we may hit on the certeynty. As for example, the disease of the Pox, how ignorant were Physicians in the cure, as long as they went by Science & Art? But after experience had taught us the use of the wood, called Lignum Vite, or Lignum Sanctum: How notoriously were the diseases cured? without the knowledge of the origen of the disease, nor yet the cause why the said medicine doth help?  
It seemeth also unto you a necessary thing, the anatomy of dead bodies: and in my judgement, it is a thing of small effect, yea, & I rather hold it for a kind of cruelty. For true it is, in such an anatomy, there remaineth neither the proper colour, softness or hardness, or any other lively thing, which you say was in the members of the dead and wounded bodies, which are abiding in the live & sound bodies: for if there be in a whole and lively man, cold, fear, weariness, or any other mean affect, or alteration, which make exterior, & notorious changes in the colour and posture of the face: it is much more like the interior members, which are more delicate to change and alter with a strange air.  
And truly I hold it for a mere madness to believe that the Armony and consert which is in the live body of a man, is to be found in one that lieth a dying, or is already dead. Now if the anatomy were of any effect, or could give any light for the health of man, there daily chanceth men to be slain in the wars, and by other mischances: where without cruelty, but rather to cure their wounds, they might make experience without the spoiling and breaking up of man's flesh, by him that hath professed rather to heal it.  
And where you say that such men experimented, are Fallares, because they change with age and time: I say that experience found out those changes and not Art, so that to experience all is due, and by the same, all is obtained. Moreover, the answers which you make to my reasons are so weak, that they need no reply at all. And where you say that Physicians are not the cause of vices and diseases, because they counsel none to distemper themselves, but rather cure their hurt, received by distemperance. But I say, because some men have such confidence in them, they encorrage them selves to be gluttons, and disordered persons, yea, and some times they give them such counsel.  
But sithence that Signior Master, is here present, mark what Saint Ambrose saith, upon the. Cviij. Psalm, which is. The precepts of Medicine are contrary to the divine counsels, because they forbid fasting, and permit no Uigilles, yea, they will compel men in such sort, that he who giveth himself there unto, shall utterly deny himself.  
And where again, you would defend Physicians from punishment, by the Laws of Plato I answer: that it is first needful that you bring the approbation of those Laws from the Emperor, for without that, your Laws are of small effect: but although they were, Plato doth not salve, but only he that cureth well, by whom if any mischance happen, he is faultless. But I spoke unto you only of such as know not what they do, which is the cause that they err in that which they take in hand, and where there is on the earth no punishment for such: I beseech God to chasten them, for it is a hard case that only Physicians are never ignorant of any thing. But if you go to an Advocate or Counsellor in the Law, with any hard question, he will answer, that be will study the cause. If you go to a Divine, he will oftentimes make their answer, and so will men of other faculties. But the Physician will incontinent make answer to a thousand diseased solke, if they demand any thing. Yea, they judge it a lesser fault to err, then to confess that they know not. Likewise their errors and evil success, they will not let to lay on some body, either the disorder of the Patient, or the malice of the humour, and whether I say true or no, I put you for witness.  
And where you say, that I understand not the properties & virtues of medicines, compounds: I answer that you say true, and I affirm the same, & say, that neither the Physicians, nor yet their Auicena, understood them: nor yet is it possible to understand the Armony and temper of. 300. things together, and therefore they are abominable. And for my part I will yield no thanks for the invention of them, as you command.  
Neither yet hold I for profitable, the Musk, Sivit, and Amber, although they are of delectable sweetness in Odour, for we might well be without them: for they profit not so much the health of the body, but in as many times they are hurtful to the soul: And sithence you are so wholly judging, that those names & dark receipts are not made by industry & malice, I pray you be a mean hereafter, to keep me from occasion of sin: to induce them to Physicians, to make their receipts with a fair plain letter in our language, & then I will judge as you do. So that now Signior Bernardo, seeing that your arguments and answers unto mine, are of no efficacy or strength, you ought to put them clean from your opinion, and that you disturb not medicine to be commonly known, and let us not permit to be subject to two or three: Whereof Pliny complaineth because we will not know what is good for us, and so we go upon other men's feet, we eat with other men's appetite, whereupon our life and health is an arbitrement. Be not so curious in this matter, as to spend in learning, to study in the University all your life time, by mean of which pains, you may get more disease, then by your study you might learn to cure. So to conclude, it is sufficient what I have said, to approve, that Experience, diet, & good regiment, sufficeth principally for our health. Therefore, let us not seek rational experience: but embrace the experimental. And think not that medicine was found before reason, for the good Husbandman and the Mariner, by use and practise, came to be Masters, and not by study and learning to know the qualities of the heavens, nor the course of Planets and Stars, nor yet the books of heaven, and world of Aristotle: for why, we daily fall among natural infirmities, with our children, servants, & neighbours, therefore we ought not to be careless, for the use and disease do make us Artistes, we have now no need of foundations: for the ancient and common opinion, which experience we hold for Masters, without buying the same for money: how much more men ought not to be inferior to the Fowls of the air, and Beasts of the wilderness, among whom there are many that have knowledge in medicine, necessary for their use: As the Heart knoweth how to draw out the arrow wherewith he is wounded, with an herb called Ditamo. The Swallow giveth sight to her young ones, with the herb Chilidonia: the wild Boor cureth with Organy. And many others likewise, of whom Pliny, and other writers make relation.  
Then it should not seem much for man to do the like: and think not, that it should be a thing unmeet to live in such uniformity, although you think we should err for want of Physicians: Howbeit, the greatest error is, in having too many of them, and their medicines. Nature hath a care to heal the sick, with very little help: for the Physicians themselves, say, that Nature is he that worketh and cureth, and that they be but ministers.  
In this sort lived the Romans, the time that I have declared, and all the world accordingly, before Physicians were known, and the like at this day among the people which dwell in the Mountains and barren Countries, who live longer and more in health, than the Citizens, where medicine & Physicians aboundeth.  
Those men I say, would never suffer Physicians to come among them: but only cure themselves with good regiment, herbs & experience, among whom I could name some notable persons. But one will be sufficient for all the rest, who is the light, and honour of Spain, for his incomparable doctrine and learning, he is called the Comendator, Hernam Nunes, master of Rhetoric, & other Arts, in the famous University of Salamanca, who as yet would never put his health in the hands of any Physician, and hath conserved the same above, 70. years without their help.  
You know also that in that time of great Pompeius was the top of the Mountain is for power: and dellycate Roman wits, as Pliny writeth, and other Authors. How Aesclepiades the famous Physician, condemned the Rules & precepts of all others, and cured only with diet & rule, in eating, drinking, and rubbing the joints and members, so that with these things of great experience, he condemned utterly Purgations, Uomyts and such like: the fruit of his curing did so much profit, that he only was praised and admitted, and infinite people came unto him.  
The same Pliny saith in his. 35. Chapter, that he happened to cure one that was thought to be dead, and carried to burying, or to be burned, as then the use was: so that Aesclepiades said, that his medicine was certain, which he affirmed of himself, because his regiment kept them from sickness, or else he required not to be taken for a Physician: and truly, be emplyed the thing which he affirmed, for he himself was never known to be at any time sick until his death, although he lived very long, and with the fall from a Ladder, he ended his life.  
So that it appeareth manifestly by mine allegations and proofs, that my opinion is not new, or singular, but common and of great antiquity, both certain and true: and for such you ought to embrace it, and so I heartily pray you. Wherewith all I conclude, although I leave much behind to avoid prolixity.  Don Nunio. 
Truly Signior jasper, you have said well, and I for my part am so tender of condition, that every one having ended his tale, carrieth me with him. But yet now I will stay a while to hear the determination of the Signior Master.  Bernardo. 
If you will give me leave, I promise that my answer shall not want. But sithence the Signior Master hath to give sentence in justice so manifest, being so just and wise a judge: there needeth no farther information.  

¶ The judgement and determination of the Master.  Master Velasques. 
TRuly Signior Dun Nunio, I would gladly be free from my bond, because I see each of these Gentlemen so earnest in their opinions, yea, and the cause so well treated and defended, that I take the Plea for doubtful: But sithence the matter consisteth not in any Article of the faith: I may speak what I think, and they shall have what they paid.  Don Nunio. 
Yet sir I pray you proceed, although they are so bend to their opinions, they refer the determination to your learned judgement, so that they cannot choose but humble themselves thereunto, whereas reason demandeth the same.  Bernardo. 
That which Signior Don Nunio saith, is true, and therein we will both receive courtesy, at the least I for my part exceeding great.  jasper. 
And I much greater, for I believe assuredly, his worship will approve my opinion.  Master Velasques. 
Because I hold it for a good exercise, I will fulfil your requests, and give my vow in the matter, for I have no jurisdiction to pronounce sentence, nor yet your masterships bound to pass or accept the same. But if I speak any thing to purpose, each may accept what he please, for I mean not to argue or dispute, but briefly in few words, I will speak what I think. Your contention principally consisteth in two points, and all the rest is accessary thereunto.  
The first is, that the one saith, that for to cure humane infirmities, neither Art nor Science, is needful, but only sufficeth use and experience.  
The other saith, that Art & Rules are most needful, and he that should cure, aught to be a Master, learned, both in Art & Science, and to have great foundation in learning, as largely the matter hath been communicated.  
The second point which seemeth to come from the first, is, that Signior jasper, who holdeth the part of only experience, would that there should be no known Physician: but that generally all men ought to cure. And Signior Bernardo, defendeth the cause & saith, that it is convenient to have them.  
The troth is, that the first & principal question is not new, nor yet you the first that have moved and disputed the same: but rather it is very ancient in medicine and among Physicians. And we say that always have been the like discord, for some do follow only experience, and therefore they were called Experts. And other desirous to know the reason and causes, and therefore they were named Rationalles. Cornelius Celso, and other Authors do write thereof at large, and both the one & the other, hath had great favourers, so that of these two first extremes ●f of force the one must be accepted, and the other to have remedy.  
The last peril and most reasonable, is to follow the first, as Aristotle saith, that those of experience are most fit, and able to cure, than the learned without experience. And speaking particularly, Plato of Physicians, in his books of common weal, affirmeth that a good Physician needeth to communicate both with sick and whole men, yea, and that he himself have been also sick, finally, the aught to be experimented: and also there is no doubt, but that medicine and Art thereof had his origen of experience, and no otherwise. So that in this case Signor Bernardo hath no reason to deny the same, for certainly the experiences being known, men as amazed began thereby to enter into Philosophy, and thereby to seek out both reasons and causes, and so is this true in other acts, as well as in medicine, whereof is author Aristotle in his books of high Philosophy, and also Marcus Manillius, and Virgil, do testify the same, saying: by vatiable cases experience made Arte. And because I do not remember which of these Gentlemen alleged Saint Ambrose.  
I do remember now that favouring and holding part with Medicine, he doth say and affirm in the same, I will therefore declare his words, because his authority is great, which are these. Where saith he, had Medicine origen, but only of infirmity. And where in the first age, men would teach their successors, and Decendentes, what things had done them good, and wherewith they cured their diseases, whereby use made Art, and infirmity made mastery, and that is the first and sufficient medicine, which experience made, and not the conjecture, and therefore they were called Expert, so that out of this sort sprung the other, and from thence took his use & force, so that word for word, S. Ambrose affirms the same.  
But to avoid weariness, I allege not other reasons and authorities, for therein is no doubt at all: but that experience was origen to medicine, & totally necessary. But yet notwithstanding, those that were named expert, remain not victors, who will not allow any other thing but only experience, nor yet are overcome. The Rationalles, which followeth Art, because betwixt these two opinions there is a third, & a mean which ought to be observed, and that is. That although experience was, and is the origen, and without the same we can not well crave this faculty: yet notwithstanding, after the expected precepts, Art was profitable, and not only profitable, but also necessary, as well for the inconstancy and changes which are in experience, as by reasons. Here hath been touched, as well to choose and know the best, which without learning were unpossible to do. For it is a plain case, that without learning and doctrine you can not make an entire judgement and election.  
And if this thing should not be reduced to Rules and Art: all should be confusion, and forgetfulness, and discord would confound all: so that if only experience should be admitted. Yet Art and Rules thereof, should be needful to know and learn, how and at what times, in what places, at what ages, in what dispositions, to what infirmities, and to what occasions the●●●ofit to some, and what unto others, and hereof perforce we can not be without Rules and means, and this is the Art which may not be wanting: for although experience hath been the origen, and knoweth how to find, but not to keep.  
But Art doth keep and conserve: also you have no leisure, every day to make experience, nor all men can not make every proof, nor yet to carry in mind the things that hath been done without Rule and artifice thereof. And for proof of a thing so notorious, it shall not need many reasons, nor authorities, for the experience we have before our eyes, that there is no work nor occupation so base, which is not guided by Art and reason.  
The Husbandman, and the Mariner of whom Signior jasper spoke, saying, use maketh mastery. Although the same were so, yet they can not want their Regiments, grounded upon experience, whereby they were guided, and learned their Art, to be a light to teach others the things, whereof experience never wanted unto them.  
The like doth the Mason, the Carpenter and other Artificers, who jointly with use and experience, have their foundation and Rules. And sithence medicine hath a more precious and higher suiect: it is no reason that it should by them be diminished, how much more many of the other causes, and knowledge of other things, which already hath been argued, and although same will say that to know such things: should not notoriously be necessary. Yet at the least they cannot deny, but that it is profitable, & also although the same should not make a Physician more perfect: yet he should be made more discreet and advised, all which things can not be brought to pass without the learning of Art and Rules, & if these things are difficult & many, they are not therefore to be refused nor yet the knowledge of them, as Signior jasper affirmeth: we know well that Art is long, but yet continual labour and goodwill overcometh And also if all may not be known yet pass with the possible, and most necessary: and though there be variety in opinions, yet also their are determinations, and resolutions, there are also Physicians and Counsel for all, whereof the good Physician, aught to be replenished, more than an other, of this opinion are the most of the wise and learned Authors. But chiefly Plato in his book of Rhetoric, saith, for this cause is Art the medicine, for why: it is a faculty that doth consider & know the nature of him that cureth, and the cause of the thing that worketh, and can of those things give a sufficient reason. And that which is alleged is not to be understood only necessary to cure the infirmity, but also, a way to sustain the health: for although Signior jasper say that we know how to eat and drink without counsel of the Physician, or other Art by only experience: true it is, but he that so doth using temperance: doth follow counsels and Rules, and also advises given by Physicians and wise men, and not so doing commonly is caused infirmity.  
And even so the most Sapient Cicero in his second book of Offices, affirmeth that for to govern and sustain health, is needful for a man to know his own complexion, and to abstain from such things that offend him, and to use of other things which agree, and are profitable for him, and to follow the counsel and Art of them who know the same, meaning the Physicians. So that to conclude, for with men so grave and wise, I need not to enlarge.  
The resolution and my vow is touching the first point, which was if only experience were sufficient, or else if Art and learning were needful of which two wants in a Physician: The want of learning is more to be suffered than the want of experience, but also that the perfect Physician ought to be expert and learned, so that the Medicine must appear on both sides, that is aswell in the experimented as rationales, and aught to have Art, precepts, and foundation jointly with experience.  
Now let us precéede to the second point, which is whether it be needful to have particular Physicians, appointed & ordained or no. I say that of my former words doth follow the true conclusion: that it is necessary to have Physicians and known masters, and that generally all men may not be of that vocation for although that only experience were necessary: it were not possible that all men should be experimented. How much more we have approved, and hold for certain that Art, Rules, and variable doctrines are needful, the which cannot be comen. And sithence of all other Arts, and mechanical Artifices, there are workmen, and known Masters: Medecin ought not to be of less condition and to have learned me therein, both to study and dispute if need require: then coning to be experimented, may use and cure with holly medicine: And it is not to hold for comparison, that Christ did command all the Apostles to cure and heal infirmities, for that purpose was only to lay foundation of our holy faith, and not principally for corporal health whereof we now treat: how much more, both for the one, and for the other, he chose and appointed several persons, and gave no power without distinction and election, the office and names of ordained Physicians, Signior jasper, are of more antiquity, then as yet we have spoken, no nor yet your profane writers make thereof no proof, for before Aesculapius, or Ipocrates, above 500 years, were Physicians in the world, we read Gen. chap. 50. that joseph commanded his Physicians in Egypt, to anoint the dead body of jacob his father, and in Exo. chap. 21. among the laws that God gave unto Moses for his people is one, that he who hurteth his neighbour shall pay, what be looseth in his work, for the time spent, and also the cost and higher of the Physician where manifestly appeareth the wages and reward of the Physician is just and of great antiquity, and in other places of holy Scripture, we find that Physicians were ordained & known, as appeareth in Peralipomenon 2. Chap. 16. where king Assa was reprehended because he called not on God in his sickness, trusting more in the Art of the Physicians, in which place it is plainly called Art and not experience, which place maketh for our purpose, and even so are there many other more. The History and example of Asclepiades, which you allege, who was in the time of great Pompeus, is true. And in that time began the sect, and manner of curing. But it was a plain and a manifest deceit that he intended, because he knew not how to cure by Science, as Plyny himself affirmeth: for he was an Orator, and because he gained little by that office, he determined to make himself a Physician, and there sprung that heresy in Medicine, as other hath done in other Arts, but as a thing without foundation, it endured but a while, how much more Esclepiades made not medicine common: but his meaning was to invent a new Art, and to make himself Master thereof.  
So that Gentlemen, let us understand that experience made the Art of Medicine, and that it is necessary to have particular expert and learned Physicians, and also I say another thing which as yet hath not been touched, and is the most necessariest of all, which is that such men ought not only to be learned, but virtuous faithful Christians, and fearful of God without the which no good Art can be ministered, and for the abuses and defects which Signior jasper hath touched, I know well that some do pass in the world, and I truly desire the remedy of them. But I say not what such Physicians are, but I declare what they all ought to be. I also say and know some that sinneth not in their opinion in manifesting them of their dealing, aswell in their malice as in their medicines, but the good Physician will cure christianly and plainly, and apply according to wisdom the medicines convenient, he also knoweth what is needful, either in Medicine simple or compound, which is the chiefest thing that Signior jasper hath impugned, but not with reason, for although the simples are excellent and do profit to mix one with another: I say it is not hurtful, for some virtues and properties do help and temper others and that which one force could not do: two or three do finish, for seldom, one humour offendeth the patient, therefore it is to provide for a whole & compound infirmity, and thereto to apply compound medicine, and even as we are compound of sundry complexions and elements, even so we stand in need of compound medicines, aswell as of simples as in all things we see plainly, in hot Countries, we mix strong wine with water, we compound things to make them more profitable for us, we also join and mix our meats, to make them more savoury and medicinal, to vinegar we put oil, & to Honey, Sugar, all things do join, temper and resist, the which certainly is most necessary in medicine, and is of great effect and profit. But if in these things and others there be any indiscreet Physicians or evil workmen: we should not therefore reprove the good, nor yet the Art, which of itself is good, holy and profitable: but rather to procure that every one be such as is convenient, and to desire of God the same, unto whom this City of Civil in my judgement ought to give most hearty thanks, for the plenty of good and learned Physicians, which dwell in the same, of whom truly I presume. But particularly I have had familiar conversation in my diseases with four or five of them, and assuredly in them doth contain the qualities of excellent men, both of experience, learning and goodness, and I have the same opinion of many of the others, and although Signior jasper is not contented with only literature and precepts: let him therefore love, and procure jointly with them experience, and also Signior jasper, condemn not the doctrine in Physicians, and trust not so little unto them that you let to cure yourself, when you are sick. But my meaning here is not of such Physicians as the jester told the marquess Ferrara, of whom Pontanus writeth. But now here is no place to tell that tale, although it is not evil to declare, for such as heretofore hath not hard thereof. But sithence it is now late, I conclude for this day, the thing I was required to do: and the rest shall remain for another day.  Don Nunio. 
Signior Master, I swear unto God, that I believe there is no more to be said, sithence you have so singularly well determined the cause, & at the least I for my part, am fully satisfied, and should finally profit in any further disputation of these Gentlemen, to change me from your sentence, howbeit I believe that now they are of your judgement, for always troth is of great force being also helped by your authority and eloquence.  Bernardo. 
I for my part do hold myself satisfied, and do consent in the determination of Signior Master, and I think Signior jasper will do the like, and so we may departed as we came.  jasper. 
I cannot choose but keep silence to the thing that Signior Master hath said, and the same aught to be most certain, sithence he hath so pronounced: but yet in my judgement I think it not convenient to cure with Physicians, but rather take diet and good Regiment to be sufficient, yea and I have heard them their selves say, that to cure therewith is a most happy cure, so that still I will follow experience and counsel and you not able to condemn me, and for the other matters, let them pass in good time, as Signior Master hath declared: and so we may departed, and God give unto your Worship entire health, that you never need any Physician, but only that you may die of age.  Don Nunio. 
Patience is good for adversity, but yet I will not that ye depart until Signior Master hath told his tale, touching the Physicians of Ferrara. And with his tale Disputation shall cease for this day, for it is not late, and time there is for all.  Master Velasques. 
Because, Signior jasper shall pacify his anger, I will recite the tale, although he hath read the same as well as I: the History is. That on a time, Nicholaus marquess of Ferrara, sporting and jesting with his jester, he inquired of him of what Science or occupation were most number in Ferrara? the jester answered, saying sir, the most in number of any one trade are Physicians, the marquess hearing this answer, laughed him to scorn, saying, thou idiot seest thou not that of that faculty there is not in the City above five or sire, and I am sure there is above 300. Shoemakers, and as many of many other Occupations? The jester answered, sir, where your Lordship is occupied in great matters you have no particular reckonings, nor yet you know what number of Massailes you have, but believe me sir I have told you troth, that of the Art of medicine is the greatest number in Ferrara, and I dare lay 200. Ducats that you shall find it so.  
The marquess began to laugh again and to deny his opinion, and in conclusion the wager was laid, although he judged it for simplicity and madness, and so he soon forgot what he had laid. But the jester who had great desire of the money that was laid, having well considered the matter: The next day in the morning he arose, being Sunday, and wrapped clouts about his head, & Tow and Wool bound to his cheeks, feigning that he was wonderfully vexed with the tootheache, and in this order he sat him down at the door of the Cathedral Church of the City, and had sitting by him a boy who was his son, that had good skill in writing, this lad had his Pen, Inkhorn, and Paper, now the jester being a man so commonly known in the City, the people that entered and came out of the Church asked of him the cause of his sickness, and he made answer to every one that he had a marvelous pain in his teeth and Gums, desiring them for God's sake to give him some remedy for the same, and where we generally use to give counsel to those whom we see suffer any pain: as many as passed by told him what to take, although some one thing, and some another. So that his boy forth with wrote every man's name that had given any remedy, and having abode there the time convenient, and his copy of names and medicines full, and in the pickle that he sat at the Church door: he went to the marquess Palace, who had clean forgotten his wager, & as the marquess espied him, he as other had done, inquired the cause of his grief, and being answered as the others were, he of gentleness told him of remedy wherewith he should be whole. The jester said sir & kiss your Honour's hands, and after a while that he had abode there, he went his way home to his house, and caused all his process to be written fair, which amounted to near 500 persons, who were all Physicians, and the Lord Marquis was placed for the first and principallist in the copy, and every man's medicine joined with his name, the next day he came to the Lord marquess Palace without his rags about his head, as a whole man, saying, right Honourable sir, now I am whole, and I thank God cured by the most honourablest Physician of all Italy, which is you, for with your good counsel I obtained my health. Therefore I pray you command to pay the wager: for assuredly for my disease I found all these Physicians in Ferrara, that are here contained in this memorial, and if I would have fought for more, iwis I had found more. The marquess beholding the roll of names and medicines, and seeing himself the first man, and many other principal persons of the City, he laughed, and confessed that he had lost his wager, and commanded the same to be paid forth with, which truly was a merry jest. So that if Signior jasper be contented with such Physicians: I say he hath reason, and shall find abundance.  Don Nunio. 
By my troth the tale is pretty, and to be laughed at with reason. I will therefore stay you no longer, depart on God's name.  jasper. 
The jester was pleasant, but I promise you on my faith, that if he had the tootheache in deed, he mought have been cured with the counsels given unto him. And I would rather trust the 500 Physicians contained in the memorial, than the five or six, which the Lord marquess spoke of. And with this conclusion Signor Bernardo let us departed, for although we have been earnest in our Disputation, yet we will departed as good friends as we came hither.    
FINIS.  
T. N.