The debellation of Salem and Bizance.   

THe Debella●yon of Salem and Bizans sometime two great townis, which being under the great turk, were by●wene Eas●er and Michelma● last passed, this present year of our lord, M.u. C. thirty 〈◊〉 with a marvelous metamorphosy●, enchanted and turned into two english men, by the wonderful inventive wit and witchcraft o● Sir Iohn Some say the Pacifiar/ and so by him conveyed hither in a Dialogue, to defend his division, against the Apology of Sir Thomas More knight. But now being thus between the said michaelmas & Halowentyde next ensuable in this Debellation vanquished: they be fl●dde ●ense and vanyshed, & are become two towns again/ with those old names chaūged● Salem into Jerusalem and Bizanc● into Constantinople/ the tone in Grece, the t'other in Syria/ where they may see them that will, & win them that can. And if the Pacifier convey them hither again, & ten such other towns with them, embatayled in such dialogs: ●yr Thomas More hath undertaken, to put himself in th'adventure alone against them all. But and y● he let them tarry still there ●he will not utterly forswear it/ but he is not much minded as yet, age now so coming on & waring all unwyeldy, to go thither & give th'assault, to such well walled towns, without some such lusty company as shallbe somewhat likely to, leap up a little more lightly.   

¶ The preface. Sir Thomas More to the christian readers.  
IF any man marvel (as I ween some wise men will) that ever I would vouchsafe to bestow any time about making answer to the pacyfyers' dialogue, considering his faint & his feeble reasoning: I can not in good faith well excuse myself therein. For as I suddenly went in hand therewith, and made it in a breyde: so when I sins considered how little need it was, I marveled mine own self and repent to, that I had not regarded the book as it was worthy, and without any one word let it even alone.  
¶ How be it good readers what one thing or twain specially moved me to make answer to it, and how it happened me to fall in hand therewith, and to spend and lose a little time about it, to make the matter the more plain unto you: that thing shall I show you.  
¶ As soon as mine apology was once come out abroad, anon heard I word that some were very wroth therewith. And yet in my mind had there no man cause, neither preacher, nor pacifier, no nor none heretic neither. For I had but spoken for myself, and for good folk, and for the catholic faith/ without reproach or reproof to any man's person, or willing any man any harm that were willing to mend. And who so were willing to be nought still, had cause to be wroth with himself you wot well and not with me.  
¶ But all this would not serve me/ for very wrath were they with me. Howbeit their causeless anger did not greatly grieve me. For I was not so far unreasonable, as to look for reasonable minds in unreasonable men.  
¶ But than heard I shortly that thykke & threefold the pennies went to work, and answers were a making, diverse, by diverse very great cunning men. And of this trayvayle of such great mountain hills, I herd much speech made, almost every week: so farforth that at last it was told me for troth, that unto one little piece, one great cunning man had made a long answer, of twelve whole sheets of paper, written near together and with a small hand.  
¶ But in good faith I could but laugh at that. For as for that piece, I was very sure that the cunnyngest man that could come thereto, neither in ten sheets nor in ten queries neither, write as near as he could, should never answer it well.  
¶ For that piece was the answer that in mine apalogye I make, as you see there unto certain sermons, wherein my dialogue was touched for writing against Tyndals' false translation. And wherein was also defended against my confutation, Tyndals' wise chapter, in which against my dialogue he laboureth to prove that the word was before the church/ & in all his chapter never toucheth the point/ and the sermon that defended him, walketh as wide as he.  
¶ It was told me as I say that answer was made to that place/ and what shift there was found to the remanant, that could I not here. But to the first point I heard say that there was devised, ' that where as I rehearse that the preacher spoke of poisoned breed, I rehearsed him wrong. For he spoke but of moulden breed. And this piece it was told me that in that new answer it was reasoned at length, & set forth very lustily  
¶ But come the book abroad once, I shall soon abate that courage. For first sith he taketh record that he said but mouldy breed: if I bring witness also that he said poisoned bred, than can his witness stand him in none other stead, but for to prove for him that he said both.  
¶ secondly shall I prove that he said poisoned breed, by such means that men shall see by reason, that though the t'other were possible: yet was it far unlikely.  
¶ Finally shall I ferther prove, that though the man had said not poisoned breed but only moulden breed: yet shall I prove I say, that as the case stood, that same not poisoned breed but moulden breed, was yet for all that a very poisoned word.  
¶ Hearing therefore that this gay book was made of the xii sheets of paper, & lacked but overloking, & that many more were in hand the shortly should come out: like as an husband, whose wife were in her travail, harkeneth every hand while, and fain would here good tidings: so sith I so much herd of so sore travail of so many, so cunning, about diverse answers, I longed of their long labour to see some good speed, and some of those fair babes borne that they travailed on.  
¶ And when these great hills had thus travailed long, from the week after Ester till as much afore Myche●mas: the good hour came on as god would, the one was brought a bed, with sore labour at last delivered of a deed mouse. The mother is yet but green good soul, & hath need of good keeping: women wot what caudle serveth against her after throws.  
¶ Now after that the book was out and came into mine hands/ and that I saw the manner and the fashion thereof: two things only moved me to write and meddle with it.  
One that I saw therein followed and pursued, the self same shrewd grievous intent that was purposed in his first book of division/ that is to wit to make th'ordinary with fere of slander and oloquye, seve their duties undone and let heretics alone/ and over that with an evil new change of good old laws, labour to put heretics in courage, and thereby decay the faith.  
¶ This was in deed the very special point that made me write yet again. And yet found I so little reason in his reasoning, that me thought it should not need. For this wist I very well, that who so ever had wit, and would confer and compare together, the words of his answer with the words of mine apology, should soon perceive that his answers were even very dull and deed.  
¶ But then was there another thing that I considered in it/ which point unprovided for, might soon deceive the reader. For all be it the pacifier hath in some places put in mine own words where it pleased him: yet hath he for the most part used a pretty craft, to miss rehearse my matter and leave my words out. Ye and besides this, the man hath in some places left out some of his own, & miss rehearsed them/ to make the reader ween, that in the reproving them, I had written wrong.  
¶ Now had I supposed to remedy those things, & make him an answer in three or four leaves, with only pointing the reader to the places, with writing in what lief he should find the matter. For the words once red: the truth should show it self.  
¶ But while I was thus minded and went there about: his answer in his dialogue had founden such a way with walking to & fro, keeping no manner order, and therewith making me seek so long for some one place, that I saw well I should sooner answer him all new, then find out for many things the place that I should seek for.  
¶ I made therefore in few days● this answer that you se. And some such places yet as I had happened to find, I have remitted the reader unto in mine apology/ where for his ready finding, I have numbered him●the leaf. And yet have I for some folk done somewhat more to. For I see well surely many men are now a days so delicate in reading, and so loath to labour, that they far in other books as women far with their primer, which though they be content to say some time the fifteen psalmys, & over that the psalms of the passion to, if they find them all fair let out in order at length: yet will they rather leave them all unto, then turn back to seek them out in other parties of their primer.  
¶ And therefore lest some readers might hap in this book to do the same: some places of thapology much necessary and not long, that with much seeking I fortuned to find out, to ease the readers labour, & make all open unto him, I have put in also, into mine answer here. Ye and yet over this in the things of most weight, I have put into this book his own words to. And so shall you good readers without any pain of seeking, have all the mate● plain and open afore your yien, that ye shall well see that I love the light, no less then this pacifier would fain walk in the dark. For as the dark is in this matter all his advantage: even so is verily the light in like wise reins.  
And where as there are some that commend his answer, for the compendious brevity thereof and shortness: I nothing therein envy the man's praise. For like as no man can make a shorter course than he that lacketh both his legs: so can no man make a shorter book than he that lacketh as well words as matter. And yet when by the places conferred well together, the feebleness of his answer shall appear: then shall he lose the praise of shortness to. For when it shall well be seen, that he saith nothing to the purpose: then shall eu●ry wise man think his book to long by all together. And that ye may well perceive that so it is in deed, let us now leave of the preface and fall unto the matter.   


The first chapter.  
IN his first chapter he toucheth three things. One that I have deceived his hope, in that I have not in mine apology devised some convenient ways to reform and redress the division between the temporalty and the spiritualty, to which point I will answer after in the touching of his second chapter. The other point is, that sith he never found any fault in any work of mine, of which for other ●ettis he never red none: he merueleth much therefore that I make such objection against his/ and namely in that work which I would name an apology, which name signifieth as he saith an answer or a defence.  
¶ Now where this good man declareth what thing an apology is, and saith that it is an answer or a defence/ for which cause he the more marveleth, that I would in that book write against any treatise of his, who never had any thing written against any work of mine/ as though that therefore my writing against his work would in no wise agree with the name of my book: I might answer him that the touching of his book, was but an incident as I show in the .100. leaf of my said book, and not my principal matter/ and therefore of many naughty things I touch there but a few, and such as were in no wise to be dissembled.  
But now marvel I much more, wherefore he should so marvel, that I would in the work which I name an answer or a defence, write against his work which nothing wrote against mine. For if the thing that I write against his words, be an answer or a defence in deed: then though it be not a defence for myself, yet is the cause of all his marvel gone. For in that book that is called mine apology, it is not required by the nature of the name, that it be any answer or defence for mine own self at all: but if sufficeth that it be of mine own making an answer or defence for some other.  
And as these titles Caluicium Sinccii, Moria Erasmi, be names convenient for those books of theyres, though the matters in those books signified by those names do not only pertain unto Sinecius & Erasmus, or peradventure to neither of them both at all: so may my book well bear the name of an answer or a defence, if it be an answer or a defence made by me, though it were all made for other folk, and not one piece thereof made for me.  
¶ So is it now that mine apology is an answer and a defence, not only for my formare books, wherein the new brethren began to find certain fa●tes/ but over that in the self same part wherein I touch the book of division, it is an answer and a defence for many good worshipful folk, against the malicious slander and obloquy so generally set forth, with so many false some says, in that seditious book.  
¶ The self same piece is also an answer and a defence, of the very good old and long approved laws, both of this realm and of the whole corpse of christendom/ which laws this pacifier in his book of division, to thencouraging of heretics and apparel of the catholic faith, with warm words & cold reasons oppugneth.  
¶ And finally for as much as many good virtuous folk began upon that ill book of division to have a right evil opinion of the maker himself `whom I for his plain confession of the true faith, took & take yet for a man good & catholic: therefore I in many places of mine apology, lay the fault fro the man himself, unto some wily shrews that deceived him. And so was mine apology an answer also an a defence, for the person of the pacifier himself.  
& And where he goeth about now for to confute it: there is not in all the remanant of his answer one piece that any thing appeyreth any point of mine apology. How be it of truth in this point he goeth most near me. For this answer hath he made in such manner wise, that I shall have now much more a do then I than had, to make any wise man ween that ever himself meant well.  
And yet will I not leave it so/ but still will put it from him to some false wily shrews, though the man do as he doth, say contrary thereto himself.  
¶ And the more the man denieth that thing himself: the more he maketh it likely to be true. For when in the things that so plain appear so nought, he rather taketh the matter all whole upon him, then suffereth any part to be laid from him, but if the man have an importune pride, as by god's grace he hath not: else is it a sure sign and a good token, that he is such a good simple soul as soon may be deceived/ while we see that his wit serveth him no better, but that he would rather appear malicious then unwise.  
¶ But now that I have proved him that the name of apology, may serve very well for every piece of my book: now will I somewhat see how the matters of his book agree well with the name thereof. I mean not here his book of division. For of that book the name and the matter agree together well/ but I mean of his new book that we be now in hand with, which book as appeareth in the first front of the first leaf is named Salem and Bizance. And therein of an hundred and six leaves (for so many be in the book) there are scant fully fifteen, that any thing agree with the name.  
¶ Now if he will say that the communication between Salem and Bizance, is but a buy matter beside, and that all the remanaunt between their talkings, is the very book: then is it worse/ for than hath his book never a name at all.  
¶ More over if it so were: then should none of the three last chapters bear the names that they do/ that is to wit the xxii the xxiii and the xxiiii chapter/ but like wise as he calleth the beginning of their communication before his matter, an introduction: so should he have called those three chapters after his matter, an extraduction.  
¶ And yet I wot not well what I may say thereof. For in the beginning of the book, their first communication is called an introduction/ and so is it intyteled upon the levys. And yet in the very end of that introduction before the first chapter, the man sayeth himself in the person of Bizance/ that he hath made as yet none introduction at all. What he meaneth by this can I not tell/ but if he mean to make men ween that Salem and Bizance were two english men in deed, and spoke those words themself without any word of his.  
¶ But now because he showeth himself so cunning in greek words, that upon this word apology, he findeth the afore said fault with mine apology, as though I were overseen and observed not the nature of an Apology: let us see how well himself that in the beginning calleth his book a dialogue, observeth the nature and property of a dialogue.  
¶ In the third lief when Salem showeth himself desirous to see the pacifyers answer: Bizance answereth: I shall cause it to be written here after in this dialogue word for word, as it is come to my hands/ and than thou shalt with good will have it. And thou shalt understand that his answer beginneth at the next chapter hereafter ensuing, and continueth to the place where I shall show the that it endeth.  
¶ Consider good readers that this introduction he doth not bring in, as a rehearsal of a communication had before, but as a communication present. And then let him show me where ever he hath herd in his life any two men in their talking together, divide their present communication into chapters. This is a point not only so far fro the nature of a dialogue, but also from all reason, that a very child would not I ween have handled the thing so chyldyshely  
¶ Also that Bizance telleth Salem that the pacyfyers' answer shall be written into their dialogue, that is to wit to their communication: who saw ever the like? who saw ever any thing written into a communication, and writing planted in among words spoken.  
¶ And what reason hath it to tell him where about in their communication, the pacifyers words shall begin and where they shall ende● as though Salem talking with. Bizance, had not the wit to perceive when Bizance speaketh himself and when he readeth him the pacyfyers words written.  
¶ Also what a strange monstrose best maketh Bizance to Salem the pacifiers answer, while he maketh as though Salem could neither perceive the head nor the tail, but if himself pointed him to them both with a stick  
More over where as Bizance saith he will write it in to their dialogue, that is to wit into their presents talking as soon as it cometh to his hands, so that at that word he had it not yet/ and than he writeth it in, even by and by, and neither goeth any where to fet it, nor maketh any man come thither to him to bring it: is not this properly devised?  
¶ Than stand they both still there as they first meet/ and that is in the street by likelihood (for there folk most commonly meet, that meet at adventure as they do) and there is all the answer perused/ the reading whereof standeth them at the lest four or five hours I trow. How be it there I was a little overseen. For they stand not there still about the reading/ but there stand they still both twain all the while that Byzance is as you see into their talking and communication writing it. And that is but if Bizance write fast, I warrant the work of a week. Now than at the weeks end when all the xxi chapters are written: Bizance in the xxii chapter giveth Salem warning, that there is the answer of the pacifier ended. And this was by the pacifier fool prudently devised. For else would Salem ween that their own talking together in the other three chapters by mouth, had been still nothing else but only Bizances writing/ and else would also Salem have thought that his own words exhortacyō against the great turk, and his own rehearsing of that exposition of the apocalypse, had been still the pacyfyers' words against mine apology.  
¶ And finally in the very end to show that he could write, not in only prose: he endeth all the whole book in this wise with a glorious rhyme, And thus the gloryonse trinity, have in his keeping both the and me/ and maketh Bizance pray for no more but for them two, after the manner of the good man prime, a mustard maker in cambridge, that was wont to pray for himself and his wife & his child, & grace to make good mustard & no more.  
¶ And thus you see good readers that where this man is so cunning in greek words, that he can shortly find the fault where I fail in the nature of an apology: himself in his own dialogue so well conserveth the property of a dialogue, & expresseth it so naturally, that it could never be done more naturally, not though he that wrote it were even a very natural in deed.  
¶ But where he seemeth to have marveled when he red mine apology, that I would make objections against his work, while he never wrote any thing against no book of mine: in good faith if he had, I would never have been the more hasty, but somewhat peradventure the less, lest it might have seemed that some desire of revenging mine own displeasure, had excited me thereto/ where as now no worldly profit growing to me thereby, there is much less cause for any good man to think, that I would take the labour to write against a work I wist not whose, but if that it had at the lest wise seemed to myself, that there were such things therein as god would give me thank, to give men warning to be well ware of them.  
¶ And where he sayeth he will not touch every thing particularly, but take an other order all out of order in answering thereunto: I can not let him in his own book to use what order that best may serve his purpose. But me thought and yet think, that I myself took a very plain open way, when the chapters of his which I would answer to, I perused all way every thing in order. Which order while he followeth not with me: how you shall find it, yourself shall good readers judge upon the end. But yet in the mean while at the first face, it seemeth not that with leaping out of order, he meaneth to make you the matter very plain.  
¶ Nor all, he saith he will not answer neither/ for avoiding of tediousness. And of troth if he have (as he seemeth to signify) any other bysynesse: I think it be somewhat tedious to him to answer all together.  
¶ Finally where he saith that he supposeth to make it appear as by his answers, and by his considerations and his declarations, that mine objections are little to be pondered: first for his arguments made against the laws, whereby the faith is preserved, and heresies kept under, those arguments all his answers will never be able to maintain And as to the remanaunt, in good faith the better that he may make you his innocent mind appear, the gladder a great deal will I be thereof/ nor nothing purpose I therein by this present book to do ferther, than to make you clearly perceive, that how well so ever himself here declare his good meaning, myself was not causeless there moved to find fault in his writing.   

The ii chapter.  
IN the ii chapter beginning in the fifth lief, he bringeth forth the first consideration, which is that I in the 89. leaf of mine apology confess that murmur and discensyon against the clergy was than all ready far gone onward in his unhappy journey/ & that afterward in the .106. leaf of the same book, I bring in a very dark sentence, whereby it appeareth that I mean that the displeasure & grudge between them is in deed neither so great as he maketh it/ and yet grown to so great as it is, but even now of late. But who so look there in that place, shall I suppose find it nothing dark/ but if it be such a man as list not to understand it.  
¶ And where I say there, that this division such as it is, which is no thing such as this man maketh it, is not grown to so great as it is, but synnies that Tyndal's books and Frythies, and frere Barons, began to go abroad: therein he would seem to say the contrary, & biddeth me look better upon the matter, and I shall find it otherwise. And in deed with better looking thereon, I find it somewhat otherwise. For I find the time of such increase as I speak of, much shorter than I there assign, & that by a great deal. For it was grown the greater by th'occasion of the self same book of the division, though the maker as himself saith and as I trust to, intended it not of purpose. And therefore where he saith that sith I confess that there was division at the time of the making of mine apology, it appeareth that I have no mind to have it ceaced, because that I seek not out the causes and devise the remedies: verily good readers I never took & accounted myself for a man meet & able to make a reformation, of such two great parts as the spirituality and the temporalty of this whole realm be. And verily if I knew some such great causes as this man setteth forth for true, which I know for false/ and that I than knew the ways to reform them to: I would use other ways toward it, than seditious slanderous books. For as I have expressly declared in mine apology, neither never did I, nor never intend to do, put out abroad in prente under colour of reformation, fawtes that were hateful and odious to here, either of the tone part or of the t'other/ and specially so many at once, as if they were all true, were not all likely to be remedied at ones/ but the more part for the while remaining little remedied, should but make either part to the other more odious, and both parts more infamous, among such other (if any such any where be) as would be glad and rejoice to here much evil spoken of them both.  
¶ And this I say all though that all were true. And now would I much less use that manner in making rehearsal of those things, whereof many be false and untrue, and many other also very tryfeles/ & the very chief things that this pacifier desireth to have reform, be laws all ready well made, which he would have made worse. For where they have been by wise men well devised for the repressing of heresies, some by perleament in this realm, some by the general counsel of christendom: those deviseth he so to be changed now, as the change which he desireth, though by god's grace he desireth not that it so should, yet out of doubt in deed should turn to thencouraging of heretics and increase of heresies, with the mynysshement and decay of the catholic christian faith. whereupon would not fail which almighty god keep from us, his grievous indignation upon us. And therefore god keep us from such reformations.  
¶ Now to lay to me therefore as a great fault, that I blame his book in those untrue some says, that under colour of ceacing division, excite and set forth division, but if myself could cease it. When such books make it: is much like as if he would say that there ought no man to blame him that would burn up another man's house, but he that would build it again.  
¶ And therefore with this good reason of his, be putteth me in remembrance of an answer, that a man of mine made ones much after the same fashion. I had sometime one with me called cliff, a man as well known as master Henry Patenson. This cliff had been many years mad/ but age had taken from him the rage, so that he was meetly well waxed harmless among folk. In to cliffs head came there some time in his madness such imaginations against images, as these heretics have in their sadness. For like as some of them which after fled and ran away, and some fell to theft and were caught, pulled down of late upon London bridge thinmage of the blessed martyr saint Thomas: so cliff upon the same bridge upon a time fill in talking unto an image of our blessed lady/ and after such blasphemies as the devil put than in his mouth, and now a days bloweth out by the mouths of many heretics, which seem they never so sad, be yet more mad than he: he set hand upon the child in her arm and there broke of the neck. And afterward when honest men, dwellers upon the bridge, came home to mine house and there blamed cliff before me, and asked him wherefore he broke of the child's neck in our lady's arm: when cliff had heard them, he began to look well and erenestly upon them/ and like a man of sadness and gravity, he asked them, tell me this among you there, have you not yet set on his head again? No ꝙ they we can not. No ꝙ cliff by the mass it is the more shame for you. Why speak you to me of it than?  
¶ And even thus answereth me now this good man/ which where his seditious some says set forth division, and break the child's neck reckoneth it a shame for me to find any fault with him for the breaking but if myself could glue it together again.  
¶ And therefore where he saith that I should have proved, that all the causes that he layeth as causes of division, be no causes of division, or else I should have devised the remedies: albe it I have answered him therein all ready, yet this I say therein ferther, that I have proved well & clearly, that the very chief cause that he sayeth, is laid very untruly/ that is to wit the miss handling the people to their destruction upon suspicion of heresy. Which cause if it were as true as it is false, were so weighty, that it were well worthy to be laid for a matter of division. And while it is not true: yet by such kookes being blown about in every part of the realm for true, may well miss hap to make a division/ while the dwellers in every quarter about by credence given to the book, may at the first face ween, that though it be not so there as they dwell themself, yet ween I say that it were so in all other places. Whereof though they shall by leisure perceive the contrary with search: yet they that ask no further question, shall believe it still. And so a rumour once begun and spread abroad, is not after soon removed  
¶ Now as for his other causes of this division: dyuerse● I have touched and showed sufficiently that they be not sufficient. But as for me to peruse his whole book of division thorough, was no part of my purpose. For if those things that I did touch had seemed to me tolerable: I would in good faith have been loath to have touched them either.  
In which while with his considerations and declarations he goeth about now to show that he than meant none harm: I will not therein much hinder him, but be glad rather to further him in thexcuse of his meaning and so did I as I have said even in mine apology to. But though I be glad to excuse his own mind in the meaning: yet can I not excuse his unwise following of false wily counsel in the doing.   

The iii chapter.  
THe iii chapter containing his second consideration, read and consider it who so list/ for I can see nothing in it to be considered by me. For in effect in containeth no thing else, but that he would the clergy should as much as they may avoid all accasyon of murmur and grudge/ of the temporalty toward them, but if it be pharysaycal grudge ye and though the deed that they should forbear were good/ in which point because that one point would wax a song work, I will fall in no dispicions. But in as farforth as he giveth any man good counsel and wisheth all thing well: so farforth shall he and I not vary/ but and he call me to him, I will sit and pray for it with him.  
¶ But yet where he saith in th'end of the chapter, that I endeavour myself very much, to oppress all them that will show such things of the spirituality: in deed some such as have made such lies, I have told it them. But as for any oppression let him prove one, and let him call that one twenty And if he can ꝓue none, as I wot well he can not: then good readers let him be believed thereafter.  
¶ More over where he saith that I in my mind prove it an intolerable default in the people for miss judging the clergy, where as I think they have no cause so to do/ and that therein. I leave them, as though all the whole cause and principal default, were in the temporalty, wherein he saith that my judgement is far deceived: in this point good reder he saith somewhat to me if he said true. And sure if he thought that he wrote herein true/ then wisdom would he should have written mine own words in. And if he feared that it would be founden false: then honesty would that he should have lest his own words out. But verily good readers and he seek this seven year, he shall in all mine apology find you no such words of mine. But he shall find far the contrary. For I do there I wot well, in such places as I show that men were unreasonable that would take this thing or that thing (such as I rehearse of his bringing forth) for any reasonable cause of division: there I say in those places that the pacifier miss sayeth the people, and that the people be much more reasonable that to take it so. And therefore here he belieth me again.  
¶ And also let him show you forth any one place, in which I say that all the whole fault or the pryncypal fault either, is in the temporalty/ and than believe him the better in another matter. And in the mean while till he bring it forth, or else that you find it yourself: ye may with reason, at the lest wise in this matter believe me better then him/ and I will never desire you to believe me one day longer. For I have neither said the principal fault in the tone nor the other. And thus hath he made you of me three lies in one chapter.   

The four chapter.  
IN his four chapter beginning in the viii leaf, he first showeth a diversity between the sample that I put in the .94. leaf of mine appologye, of a pacifier between a man and his wife, and the thing that I there resemble it unto/ that is to wit his own book, that maketh a like pacification between the temporalty and spirituality.  
¶ But surely the difference that he putteth seemeth to my poor wit greatly to a pair his part. For if it be as he saith it is, that where as the husband would be loath to hear any evil spoken of his wife, and therefore will can such a pacifier no thank, that will tell him such tales of her before his neighbours: the temporalty will be glad to hear harm spoken of the spirituality: then was it so much the worse done, to write openly to the temporalty such things of the spirituality, to feed and nuryshe any such evil delight: or openly to the spyritualty, being as he said like wise affectyonate, the faults of the temporalty either.  
How be it I can not in good faith say, but if I should belie him, that on that side willingly he greatly passed his bounds/ but of oversight unware, he hath in some things slandered the temporalty to.  
¶ Then showeth he farther wherefore he wrote those things in english, though Iohn Gerson wrote them but in latin/ wherein to say the troth, he layeth a cause sufficient wherefore that Iohn Gerson wrote them in latin. But whither he lay cause sufficient wherefore himself should not rather have let them alone then write them in english, against the counsel of Iohn Gerson himself as I touched in mine apology: that I leave yourself good reads to consider. For I will not much strive against his excuse. For I greatly shall not need I think, sith all his excuse amounteth to no more, but that he meant that some lay men reading the priests faults in english, might put them in remembrance to mend them/ specially because he saith even in the same chapter a little afore, that the temporalty so much delighteth to here of them.  
Then goth he farther in the same chapter/ & where as in his book of the division, he would have seemed between the temporalty and the spirituality to have spoken indifferently, & to have told them their faults on both parti●●gally: here in the second side of the x. leaf, he telleth us the cause wherefore he did not so, & saith in this wise.  
I have spoken of defaults and abuses in the spirituality, more than of defaults in the temporalty/ because the spiritualty ought to be the guiders and givers of light by their doctrine & good examples to the temporalty: & if their light be darkness, where shall the temporalty then fetch their lighter? truly I wot not where. And I doubt that then they both shall walk still in darkness. And therefore it is that Iohn Chrysostome saith upon Matthew the xxi. chapter. That if priesthood be whole & sound, all the church flourisheth: and if it be corrupt, the faith and virtue of the people fadeth also and vanisheth away. Let thy therefore as to this point be the final conclusion for this time, that who so ever proveth defaults to be in the temporalty, he proveth also defaults to reign in the spiritualty: & therefore the defaults in the temporalty will never be avoided, till the defaults in the spirituality be first reform: and therefore have I first spoken of some defaults that be in the spirituality.  
¶ Surely good readers I like well these words. For they be very good & they prove very well, & very true it is/ nor I vever said the contrary, but have in mine apology plainly said the same, that every fault in a spiritual man (though the thing were of itself all one, is yet by the difference of the person, far worse and more ody●ouse both to god and man, than it is in a temporal man. But yet the worse that every private spiritual man's fault is, so much is it the more harm to diffame the corpse of the spyritualty openly in the face of the temporalty, in such manner as the book of division doth/ of which I have proved those that are weighty false, and could (if I would now lose time about it while that that I have touched is sufficient) show the substance of all the remanant to have little substance to.  
¶ And therefore the words of saint Chrysostome which he sayeth for his book, were in part the very cause that made me write against his book. For surely as saint Chrysostome saith, if the presthed be corrupt, the faith and virtue of the people fadeth and vanisheth away/ which is without any question very troth for though saint Chrystome had never said it, our saviour saith as much himself: ye be (saith he to the clergy) the salt of the earth, & if the salt wax once fresh and we ryshe, wherein shall any thing be well seasoned? And you be the light of the world. And therefore if the light that is in the world, be dark: how dark shall then the darkness be it self?  
¶ But now say I sith that the priesthood being corrupted, it must needs follow that the faith and virtue of the people fadeth and vanisheth away/ and upon Christ'S words it must follow that if the spyritualty be nought, the temporalty must needs then be worse than they: thereupon I conclude upon the other side against the pacyfyers' book, that sith this realm hath (as god be thanked in deed it hath) as good & as faithful temporalty, & (though there be a few false brethren in a great multitude of a true catholic men) as hath for the quantity any other country christened, it must needs, I say follow that the clergy, though it have some such false naughty brethren to, is not in such sore manner corrupted, as the book of division goth about to make men ween/ but as good for their part as the temporalty for theirs.  
¶ A therefore in like wise I say, that upon the self same words of saint Chrysostome and of our saviour christ: the said book of the division in diffaming the spirituality, diffameth the temporalty much more/ which is the thing that as I said seemeth me neither honourable nor profitable, in open prented books, for any english man to do/ nor verily I think the maker would not have done, if he then had thought so far.  
But now goth he farther and saith.  
And though master More can not deny these fawtes. (I suppose you have heard me deny such as were the chief and proved them I ween untrue) yet all the amendementes that he aleyth in his apology is only in punishment of heresies, as is s●●● before: whereunto he specially moveth the ordinaries not to be slack nor the more remiss for fe●e ●f enyll words and slander of the people. And if they be therefore the more ●lacke in calling attaching a●d examining, and farther ordering of heretics: he sayeth god will not fail to make fall in their necks the double slander of that, fro whence they fled. And in another place he moveth the temporalty to join with the spirituality each with other lonyngly to repress and keep under those ungracious folk, by whom he meaneth heretics Upon which motion I shall somewhat show my mind, as hereafter followeth in the next chapter.  
¶ Here he complaineth again that I devise no remedies, as though the whole provision for all thing lay upon mine hand. I do somewhat for my part, when I pray god to give us all the grace spiritual & temporal both, to keep well and observe such provisions as god hath given good men the grace to make all ready. For if we keep them well: I ween there are me●ely many made. And if we break the old: so will we by likelihed break these a● well, that he would have me now devise and study new. And somewhat I do better for my part, while I labour to have the good old provisions kept, than this pacifier doth for his, while he laboureth to have them broken, and namely those laws that are of the very best, and made for the faith against heresies.  
¶ But then laboureth he as me thinketh, to make the brethren angry with me/ and rehearseth and inculketh into their ears, that I exhort both the spiritualty & the temporalty to, those to whom the matter appertaineth, not to be any thing the more slack in repressing of heresies, for any fere of infamy.  
¶ Surely good readers what so ever I wrote in that behalf: I will require every man to have it even here/ for written and repeated again. For when we see that the words of his writing, which I have in mine apology rehearsed you, how well so ever he meant therein (as I trust he meant but well) have yet that plain open appearance in them, that they were well likely to put such as should see to the repressing of heresies, in doubt and fere of infamy, & to be had among the people as folk suspect of missehandeling good folk and of cruelty: I reckon it the part of every good man, that any zeal hath to the conservation of the catholic faith, to encourage them on the other side, to the doing of their duty therein/ and not to set the respect of their estimation among men (which yet they shall also much the better conserve among all the people save those few that are nought) before the saving of their souls, and keeping the favour of god: namely sith the keeping of people from heresies and putting the scabbed heretics out of the clean flock, is one of the special things that th'apostle gave the bishop warning of. Let him find out any word of mine, where with I would any harm to any man that would amend, and then let him lay it to me. And who so ever intendeth never to be good: I am well content that the pacifier make him not my friend.   

The fifth chapter.  
IN the fifth chapter he toucheth punishment of heresies, & divideth the matter into four sorts of people/ wherein for as much as he nothing sayeth that toucheth me, I let them pass all four.  
¶ After those four sorts perused: he speaketh of the fifth, which he very earnestly dispraiseth, that are those which take and hold contrary ways/ to the true faith in deed. But then in that part he much miss liketh in me, both that I call them any evil name, as the naughty brethren or heretic brethren, and also that I call them good names to, as the blessed brethren and evan gelycall brethren.  
¶ And for the first in calling them any such evil names: he saith I do not as I would be done to/ as appeareth he sayeth in mine apology. ● Surely I suppose he may therein find, that I force not what such as they be call me. And I can write no worse word by them I wot well, than they write many by me.  
¶ And to as for to give evil names to such folk as are so evil in deed: let him call it railing at his pleasure/ but how so ever it be in me. I wot well that some other have done so, that yet were no raylours/ except saint Poule were a raylour, when he called his carleshe keepers dogs, & when he called the chief pressed a whyted wall, which was a spyghtful word among them/ & except saint Policarpus railed, when he calleth the heretic Ma●cyon the devils eldest son, & except our sovyour railed, when he called the scribes & the pharysyes' hyprocytes.  
¶ But then that I call them again good names: this thing lo this good man reckoneth a very monstrous manner, to make them both good and bad. But this is a monster lo of every manny● making. For so call not I them alone, but the whole people to, in such manner of speaking as every man useth, when he calleth one self naughty lad, both a shrewd boy and a good son/ the tone in the proper simple speech, the t'other by the figure of irony or antiphrasies. And by a like manner figure saint Hierome against the old heretic Vigilantius, calleth him sometime Vigilantius, and sometime again Dormitantius/ and so he calleth that heretic two contrary names, as well as I do these.  
¶ And where he can not te● what I mean by the new broached brotherhood: that am I content to tell him/ I mean that they be a barrel of poison, that the devil hath late set abroach, and laboureth by them to poison other men.  
¶ And where he can not bear it, that they being such should be called by the name of evangelycalles: I well allow the good mind of the good man, that he therein showeth himself so to bear to the faith, that it grieveth him to here heretics called by such a good gracious name. But he must consider that it is now, and some years all ready passed hath been, the name by which they have been as commonly called in all the countries' catholic, as by their own very name of heretic. And th'occasion thereof grew first of that that themself took the name evangelical, arrogantly to themself both by thevangelical liberty that they pretended, as folk that would live under the gospel and under no man's law beside/ & because they would also believe nothing further, than the very scripture, all which they take now under the name of the gospel. For the new law they take for nothing else, but for the declaration and perfection of the old.  
¶ Now when they had taken this name commonly upon themself, the catholics telling them, that they neither lived nor believed according to the gospel letted not yet to call them by the same name to/ & that not to their praise, but to their rebuke & shame. And some turned in writing that name of theirs in scorn, & in stead of evamgelicos, wrote them pseudo evamgelicos.  
¶ Now if this man can not bear it, that I call them as the old folk do: though I would myself leave it for his pleasure, that would make ye wot well but a small change. For other folk will call than still yet by what name they list, and neither I nor he can let them.  
¶ But to th'intent he may be somewhat the less discontent with me, for calling heretics by a good name: he shall understand that upon such occasion & such manner, it is no new begun thing so to do. For a certain sort there were of the heretics that were the Manicheis, which were first among themself called by the name of Cathari, that is to wit pure and clean/ & afterward the catholics called them by the same name. And so doth saint austin also call them in his writing. But yet he declareth both their false heresies, & their secret shameful living for such, that though he call them by the name of pure and clean, as we call now these brethren evangelical, yet he meant that they were neither pure nor clean in deed, no more than these folk in living or belief, follow the very gospel in deed.  
¶ But than cometh he forth upon me somewhat solemnly with a very folly and with a solemn lie. For lo good readers these are his words I warrant you wise and true.  
And now will I say somewhat ferther concerning this matter, and that is this. I marvel much, how master More durst for offence of his conscience, and for dread of the kings displeasure, and of the whole realm, bring up such a slanderous name in this realm, and put it in print, that may lightly touch not only many of the common people, but also of the greatest of the realm, as well spiritual as temporal; if he and other of his affynyte lytte to call any of them one of the blessed brethren, or of the good brethren. And in this point it seemeth, that he forgot the honour of the realm, which he seemed much to regard, when he said: he could not think it to the honour of the realm, that other realms should ween, that the whole clergy of this realm should be so far fallen into the grudge and indignation of the whole temporalty, as he saith it is spoken to be in the said treatise, whyce he calleth the book of division: for certainly it is more dishonour to the realm, to have it noised, that the realm is full of heretics, than that the temporalty grudgeth against the spiritualty, and so he esheweth and fleeth the less slander, though it were all true that he sayeth and runneth headlong into the greater.  
¶ And now will I say somewhat ferther concerning this matter/ and that is this. I marvel much how this man durst for offence of his conscience & displeasure of god, bring up such a slanderous lie upon me, and write it in his book, that I should write in mine apology, that the realm is full of heretics.  
¶ If the case were now no better upon my part, nor no worse upon his, but that in mine apology there could no such saying be founden: what rebuke were it yet unto him, if he were a man openly known by name? as now the shame cleaveth not on his cheeks, but he soon shaketh it of while his name is not at his book. But now sith that in mine apology I plainly write the contrary: what words will there serve to say to this man the things, that he were in this point weary well worthy to here.  
¶ R●de good christian readers the xlvii. chapter of mine apology, beginning in the .260. leaf and there shall you plainly see, that I say plain the contrary. For where as this pacifier did in his book of division under the name of some other bylye of likelihood some of the spiritualty than, surmytting that they as of policy noised that the realm is full of heretics more than it is in deed/ as he now belieth me here, surmising that I do say the same: ye shall there see that I show it to be unlikely, that any politic spiritual man would so say for policy/ sith so to say were for them for the cause that I there show, very far against good policy. And there I ferther show, that some heretics have falsely made that noise, and there I tell for what cause. And afterward in fo● 268. I show that for all their busy bragging, they be yet in deed but a few.  
¶ Now good reads when I thus have written there in both the places so open and so plain, that the realm is not full of heretics, nor hath there in but a few, though the few be in deed over many/ & grown more also by negligence in some part, than there hath been in some late years passed: how may this man find in his heart for shame, to write in this wise? and as it were with such authority so solemnly chekke me falsely, for writing that the realm is full, & than excuse his like fault by mine/ & yet in the comparison make mine the greater to? But now is all the craft of the comparison discovered, & the glory of that argument defaced, while you see that his fault is true, & that mine he feigneth & findeth not in mine book, but plain and expressly the contrary/ and that he spynneth that fine lie without flex, fetching it out of his own body as the spider spynneth her cobweb. And thus is my fault fair wiped away, & his lieth still in his neck, and another now laid unto it.  
¶ Now as this was no little folly for him to lose his credence with that openly, that might be so soon and so plainly controlled and reproved: so is his first point also no less folly than that, wherein he marveleth so much that I dare for my conscience, and for displeasure of my prince, & of the whole realm, bring up that slanderous name in the realm, to call these heretics the brethren/ considering that it may lightly touch not only any man of the comen people, but also of the greatest of the realm, as well spiritual as temporal, if either myself or any of mine affinity list to call them, one of the blessed brethren or of the good brethren  
¶ This is forsooth one the most simple sought out folly, that ever I yet saw set out with high words so solemnly. For first as for to call them by the name of the brethren, is nothing of my bringing up, but a word walking in every man's mouth (which thing I can not believe but this man well knoweth himself, as strange as he maketh the matter) and begun by the good blessed brethren themself, as well appeareth upon their own letters, enough to be showed at sundry seasons sent between them.  
¶ Now touching the great fere & peril that he putteth, lest I or some of mine affinity may slander any of the greatest of the realm, if we list to call any such man one of the good brethren: the good man may take his rest I warrant him, & shall not need to break his sleep therefore. For first as for mine affinity is not very great. For I have none affinyte but as I think himself hath and every other man, that is to wit either by gossepred or by marriage/ except he mean to call all the true catholics mine affinity, and all the other his own. And than which way so ever he mean, a sewde slanderous word were as likely to happen in one of his affinity as in one of mine. And as for myself the pacifier himself is (as his some says show) somewhat more set upon an appetite of slawndering than am I, which bear a little more reverence to the great men of the realm, spiritual and temporal both, and more honest mind unto the small all, than wrongfully to diffame either great or small, by calling either the tone or the t'other, any of the blessed byched new broached brethe●hed/ except only such as by their own open writings, or by their open words, be plainly proved heretics.  
¶ But yet consider well good readers, what a wise reason this is that he bringeth forth. For what apparel is there of such slander, more by this name of the good brethren than by the other name of heretics? is not the old name of heretics, as slanderous as this new name of the blessed brethern● what name can this good man devise us himself to call them by, in which name the same apparel of slander may not fall as well as in this? Men may by this wise reason call them by no name at all, for fere lest I or mine affinity might if we lift, call not only any of the people, but also the greatest lords both spiritual and temporal, by the same name, and so bring them in slander. For the slawnder is all one what so ever the name be, when the thing is all one that is meant and signified thereby.  
¶ And this man useth himself in this place therefore, very circumspectely for this point in this chapter, where he speaketh of heretics after his four sorts of folk before. For he calleth them there by no name at all himself, but saith of the fourth sort: These be the worst sort of people before all other, except only an other sort of people, which sire Thomas More in his apology calleth sometime desperate wretches, sometime stark heretics, and sometime the blessed brethren, and sometime the naughty brethren etc. So that this good man himself here, like a true faithful man, affirmeth them nought/ & such & so nought, as there be none worse. But name (as it seemeth) for fere of occasion of slander, he durst here none call them himself but saith they be they, whom I call thus and thus.  
¶ Well I will make no vow thereof as yet/ but I will peradventure at a leisure here after upon better ad visement, use the same cyrcunspeccyon and policy that I learn of his ensample here/ and when I speak of such manner folk, give them no name at all myself/ but for a token that men may wit whom I mean, I shall say those fellows I mean that saint Poule pardie calleth heretics so/ & that be all they that obstinately hold any self minded opinion, contrary to the doctrine that the comen known catholic church, teacheth & holdeth for necessary to salvation.  
¶ After all this in the xiiii and the xv. leaf, he asketh me with a solemn dreven process, whither I would not think it good and weldone/ that all such as have authority to punish heretics, should before they punish them, amend first their own fawtes. And I think yes in good faith, that it were very well done/ and I would that every man would so do in deed, that either should correct heretic or any malefactor else.  
¶ But than again I ask him, that though this were weldone, if every man would wax as good as another good man would wish him, and as himself would wish another man to be: yet if there were some that were not so suddenly so well disposed, as to mend their own fawtes so soon as the duty of their office would require of necessity, that they should do correction upon the fawtes of some other folk: should they not yet do it for all that in the mean while, and other folk to whom it appertained/ be bound to assist them therein, though their own fawtes were not all amended yet.  
¶ To this question so he hath in the same place answered me yes, as I have him to the t'other. And thus good readers this good man and I, after our sore conflict in the other matter, have yet in these two points stricken hands again, and be god be thanked meetly well agreed together, god hold it.   

The, vi. chapter.  
HIs sixth chapter beginneth in the xvi leaf, wherein he showed that I in mine apology miss take the letter of his said treatise/ and he telleth which words. But he telleth neither in what place of his book his words are, nor in what place of my book you may find mine. Those two things he leaveth out, because he would as he said in the beginning, not follow thorder of my chapters, but take the way that should be best to the plain opening of the troth. But for as much as me seemeth that to the plain opening of truth, the readier way is to read first both the places, & than this his answer after: ye may therefore good readers find both his words and mine in my apology/ his in the leaf. 123/ and mine against which he now reasoneth in his answer ye shall find fo. 127. And now good readers if you read and consider those two places first, and than compare well the words of mine apology there, with the words of his answer here: it shall suffice for this matter. For there shall you see well that I miss take not the letter of his words. For I say not nay, but that his words go only against spiritual men/ but his reason runneth out against every kind of men spiritual & temporal to. And there I show also, the reason wherefore and why. And therefore I ween it will appear plain, that I myssetake not the letter of his treatise at all/ & that his reason runneth out in deed against every kind of men. For there is neither spiritual man nor temporal, but he may take harm by abundance.  
But so is there as I there say, neither, spiritual man nor temporal, but he may with abundance do good.  
¶ But now the declaration of his mind in this answer, mendeth all the matter. For here he declareth that by these words of his in a manner strangling: he meaneth the minishing of some fervour, as though a man would say that by almost killing with a club, he meant the giving of a fylyppe in the forehead with his little finger.  
¶ But sith that in this vi chapite● of his, his great mortal strangling is now strangled away, and turned into venial sin: we shall for this matter trouble you no longer/ but everyman may take holy water and go home to dinner, for service is all done here for to day.  
¶ The counsel of saint bernard that he there speaketh of to the pope Eugenius, is in good faith as me thinketh very well brought in. And I would advise every spiritual man to follow it, and to take good temporal men to him, and let them do all his temporal business for him. This think I good as for mine own mind, but if there be in any part any laws made all ready to the contrary, by such folk as it can not become me to contrall. How be it I suppose that much part of their temporal business is done by temporal men in deed.  
¶ As for his act of parliament that he speaketh of I suppose verily that the clergy would not be against it. And such acts are there all ready made more than one, good and sufficient/ but if he mean to set an addition thereto, that ●he kings grace should expressly be bounden by the act, that if he gave any licence of mortysing into the church, it should be void/ except such cases as this good man list to limit and give him leave. Sith his highness is now moved by this good man here thereto: his grace may agree to it when it pleaseth him.  
¶ As for the great matter that he maketh, of that I never in all the time that I was conversant in the court, could perceive any of the noble men above the number of seven, and yet not now so many, that ever thought it good that any possessions of the church, should with out a lawful cause be taken away there from: I marvel much what he meaneth, and what subtle conceit he conceiveth in his wise breast, that he so mutereth, and mumbleth upon that word as though such communication either on the tone side or the t'other, were of such high importance, that it were either felony or some heinous mysprisyon, either in telling the tale again, or else in keeping it counsel so long.  
For I wot near in good faith in which of the twain this good man findeth the fault, or whether he find any or none. But if he find any: in which of the twain so ever he find it, he findeth but his own folly. For now shall you good readers see, what little insight the man hath in any thing that he readeth. first he rehearseth a part of my words written in mine apology fo. 130, where I say that I never found in all the time whyse I was conversant in the court, of all the nobility of this land. above the number of seven, that ever I perceived to be of the mind, that it were either right, or reasonable, or could be to the realm profitable, without lawful cause to take any possessions away from the clergy.  
Now upon these words ye shall see what he gathereth, by which ye shall see what wit and what learning the man hath. These are his words lo.  
Sith master More saith that he hath not known above seven (whereof he saith three are deed) that were of the mind that it were reasonable without cause to take possessions fro the clergy/ in which words it is coucluded, that he knew seven of that mind, whose opinions it liketh him to rehearse and put in writing and in print also.  
¶ This man hath a special insight in inclusyves and exclusyves, when he weeneth that in my words it were included, that I knew vii of that mind, that it were reasonable to take away possessions fro the church without cause. My words you wot well that I never knew above seven, that without lawful cause to take away possessions fro the church, thought either right, or reasonable, or that it could be to the realm profitable. What include these words now? Do they include as he saith, that I say that I knew vii that thought it reasonable? This man is so cunning in his inclusyves & exclusyves, that he discerneth nothing between compulatyves and dysiunctyvys. This man I see well never learned the rule that almost every boy can, that to the verity of a dysiunctyve, it sufficeth any one part to be true. Let him now learn it therefore/ and then shall he perceive that my words include no farther, but that I say that I knew seven which among them all thought some one of those three things, that is to wit, either some of them some one, and some of them some other or else all seven some one of those three things, that is to wit, either right, or reasonable, or profitable, without any determination which of the three. And neither includeth those words of mine that I say all seven thought it right, nor that all seven thought it reasonable, no nor yet that all seven thought it profitable. But it hangeth not upon his determination, but upon mine own declaration, which of these three things which of those same seven thought or which one of the three they all thought/ and never one of those three things is determinately included to any one of the seven. For if I would say that I never knew in all my life any man above the number of seven, that had been either at Alkayre or at Salem, or at Bizance: do these words include that I say that I have known seven that have been at Salem? That am I sure they do not. But I may well stand by those words, if I said after, that I have known seven persons that have b●n all seven at Bizance/ but as for Alkayre or Salem I never knew any one that had been at any one of them both.  
¶ And in like wise will I well stand by mine other words and verify them with a good excluding of this man's including. For I say and very truth it is, that I never found any noble man above the number of seven, that without lawful cause to take away possessions fro the clergy, thought it either right or reasonable, or that it could be for the realm profitable. I found not I say above seven, that thought any one of all these three/ is not this true if I found seven, that thought all three? yes forsooth true enough though I never found any one, that ever thought any two of the three. And now therefore though I never found any noble man so unrighteous, or so unreasonable, as to think it right or reasonable, without lawful cause to take away any possessions from the clergy: yet have I found seven that have thought, if right and reason would bear it, they could tell how that as for worldly policy, some of the possesseons taken away might be to the realm profitable And some one hath thought that it would be peradventure profitable to the realm, that the lords had the lands whose ancestors had mortysed them. And peradventure he that so thought, should not have lost a groat by it. And some other hath thought that it would be more profitable to put it into hospitals of some certain new fashioned foundation, and thereof neither make priests the masters, nor no lay men neither, but some good sad honest virtuous wydoes, that would be tendable & tender to sick folk, and that should yearly yield a count unto thordinary. And some other have thought it better to divide & cant it among good poor husband men, that should till the ground their own hands, & take the land for their labour, with divers other devices more, every man after his own mind. And what harm was there now in any of all their minds, that this good wise man would have my words seem so heygnouse, upon a sentence that himself includeth in them/ and which sentence of his, reason excludeth from them/ and in which as you plainly see proved, this man woteth near what he meaneth. And to th'intent that he should well know that the matter is nothing fearful: therefore wrote I that three were deed, because he should well wit that there were yet the more part a live. And therefore if the good man think any great heygnouse offence in the matter: let him come to me himself, and I shall bring him to some of them, that shall not make it strange to say again the same to himself/ and than he may use it at his pleasure as his high wisdom shall think convenient.  
Than saith he farther in the second side of the xviii leaf, that he can not tell what cause I would think a cause reasonable, to take any possessions from the church. But yet sith it is implied in my words, that some cause lawful and reasonable there may be: he thinketh he saith, that peradventure if I were asked the question therein, by them that have authority to do it, I would show what I meant thereby. There shall in good faith need no great solemn examination of me by men of authority for that matter. For I will not stick to tell it unto himself/ but have told it all ready to him and every man else that list to read it, a good while a go in my book of the supplication of souls/ and there may this good man go seek it if it please him, and then use it as it like him.  
¶ But finally after his heart some what eased, he cometh to himself again, and endeth the chapter very well/ wishing the clergy the grace that the apostles had, and declaring that he never desired them th'apostles poverty/ and exhorting them that have abundance of possessions, to be well aware so to use it as it be not a let of the devotion that they should have to god, and the charity that they should show to their neighbour. In these three things he saith as me thinketh very specially well. And I pray you heartily good readers every man the● rather at my poor request, what so ever he wrote before, think now that he meant then but thus.   

The vii chapeter.  
HIs seventh chapter beginneth in the xix leaf and therein upon a sex leaves/ he argeweth against a little doubt that I moved upon the beginning of his first chapter of his division/ which words of his and mine thereupon begin in mine apology fo. 101. And the same point is touched again there fo. 106. When you have there red what I ●●y: then may you read here his answer, wherein he declareth the matter, and argueth, it by cases of law, much after the manner of a motable case, full well favouredly in good faith/ and with long labour proveth at last, that it must be taken in such wise as he seeth, that among other constructions I construed his mind myself, though I was loath to do so, because that way was the worst for himself. But now he remedyeth that with a line or twayne● wherein he declareth that he meant not to prefer every seculare pressed before those that are in religion. wherein I would have trusted him as well upon his word, as upon the reason that he layeth for it now/ which save for the trust that I have to his word, I would ween he never thought on when he wrote the division/ but rather ended the clause in such wise as it happened, without any respect peradventure to th'increase and growing of the sentence in the end.  
¶ I was ones half in mind here to have kept scoles with him yet in this point ones again, even all of pleasure/ and to have brought it yet again in questyone, whether the circumstances of his words were able to prove, that he meant otherwise than he now argueth that it must nedis be taken. And then if the circumstances so did, whether comen usage and acceptance of a word should against the circumstances of the matter, have like strength in all other things, as it hath in matters of law/ and whether the reason used in the courts in matters of law, be of like strength in every other thing as they be when they be made in mate●s of law/ and of like vigour and force in every place abroad, as they be in the courts in which they have been long received and accepted for sure and stable grounds.  
¶ And whither in this point between him and me, being no matter of the law nor pertaining to the judgement of any court, but to be considered by the whole people in every man's reason at large, the cases of the law of this realm that he bringeth in, which be judged and sure, and should serve the tone part in the law, though the matter were the weight of a thousand pound, should hycause we be english men, and our matter written in England and in english words, stand for a sure and an insoluble argument, though the laws both civil and canon that are called the comen laws of all christendom beside us, were as peradventure they be in the self same cases, full and whole to the contrary.  
And yet would I beside this a little have assayed, so to shake his cases of London and Mychelmasse, that peradventure to many a man in London between this and Michaelmas, should they never have seemed like unto our matter, by that time that I had ones declared them the difference.  
¶ These points and happily more to, was I when I red his answer halse minded as I say to have brought in, and disputed with him upon this matter. For I was waxen with the reading of his answer very merry, and waxen me thought a young man again/ and seemed set at a vacation mote with him in some Inn of the chancery, because of his comen intendment, and his proper cases of law.  
¶ But than I considered that as I was in the reading of his answer merry: so was himself I saw well in the writing weary/ and other readers that were no lawyers, would in the reading wax almost as weary. Than saw I also, that when himself had all said, he liked not his own all the best/ but after all his pain taken in the answering, seeing that his answer liked him not, he was fain to fall to another way, & telleth me that there needeth none answer to that point at all, because that there is no fruit he saith in that objection.  
¶ Now therefore if thobjection be fruitless, and therefore th'answer needless, and verily fruitless to: now to reply thereto were labour half lost and more. And therefore good readers for as much as to the answer made by the manner, no law putteth us ferther to reply: the matter is at a demurrour in this point, and we at your judgement, wherein ye may use your wisdom and judge it even as you find it. Wherein the best that he can ask, is but to be dismissed, & judge that he meant not to prefer the state of chantry priests before the state of religious people/ but meant as he now declareth his mind (which very few folk could before as I suppose have guessed) that the variance between priests and priests, that is to wit between seculare priests and seculare priests, is more to be lamented than between priests & religious, or between religious and religious, because the variance between priests and priests is more marked and more notable than any of the t'other, because the priests go more abroad.  
Now if this exposition of his mind may serve to quite him now: (which I am content it do) it is all I promise you that it may do. For it will never serve him to recover damages. For he can never blame no man that perceived not that before, that is scant credible yet.  
¶ But yet because he so much incusketh the lack of fruit in many of mine objections, and that they be no matters of no moral virtue: I will not answer him with the like/ and say that in many of his pretended causes of division is no fruit at all, nor no moral virtue neither/ as in procuring the people to believe untruly, that the prelate's handle men uncherytably, and for heresies vex them wrongfully, & give occasion that some perish both in body and soul/ which if the ordinaries had handled them cherytably, had been in both twain saved/ and that it willbe very hard to find so much as any one spiritual man such, as himself deviseth and adviseth, that none but such should be suffered to be judge in heresy/ and labouring also the good laws of this realm and of all christendom to be changed, to the ease of heretics, that have been made for the repressing of heresies/ with such other things like that are in his book of division more than I ever wrote word of yet/ in which (as I have often said) for as much as I see that he professeth himself to hate and abhor these heresies, that these folk now hold, whom saint paul calleth heretics (I dare not now for him but when I forget myself call them by none other name) I would with good will that men should think he meant none hurt. But in the words of the writing, taken after the comen usage and acceptance of speaking, as he will in this his vii chapter have me take them, there is neither moral virtue nor fruit, but full unfruitful vice.  
¶ But as I said, I will not in defence of ours, answer him with the fawtes of his. For mine were never the better though his be nought to. But I say that mine objections in mine apology be not fruitless, because they defend the truth, & make good folk perceive both what harm it were to believe such evil lies, & what damage it were to put away such good laws/ and how unreasonable it were in other men's fawtꝭ to take small things for very heinous and great/ or for them that in a felesshyp are faulty, not to bear displeasure only to their persons, but to be at division in general with the whole company. And this fruitis there also, that though that book say the contrary, strangers such as are here and can read english, which are not ye wot well a few, many yet perceive by plain proves in mine apology, that not only there is no such great general causes of division as the book of division saith that there is, but also that there is no such great generyll division thorough the realm in deed. These fruits are there in many of mine objections against his book in mine apology.  
¶ Now where as some of mine objections peradventure, say but either lack of learning in him, or lack of natural wit, sith his name is not at his book, but he speaketh himself unknown: this profit is there in such objections, that without his rebuke or shame, the readers may by those fawtes perceive, that the writer was not of any such special qualities, as the book wherein so much evil was contained, should be much leaned unto, for credence and authority of the man.  
¶ Finally the very self objection, whereof he speaketh in that seventh chapter of his in his new book, & saith there is no profit in that objection, and that therefore it needed none answer/ but he might grant me all that ever I say therein, and yet none effectual matter were there for all that: thereto I say that look who so list what I say therein, and he shall find that if this man grant all that, he shall grant in himself much more oversyghte & much more lack of learning to, than were requisite in him that would put out books abroad/ and therefore his writing the less to be regarded, while his person is unknown/ where as if his person were known, he might be peradventure perceived for all that, for such a special man by side, that his approved wisdom and learning well known otherwise, might for thestimation of his book, more than countrepayse some such oversyghtes as at a time might happily to scape a right wise man, that would write by candellyght while he were half a sleep.  
¶ But than I say ferther yet/ that in that objection was a matter of no little effect. For taking that he meant as himself saith he did: his words seemed plainly to show, that he reckoned the state of chantry prestis, to be a state of more perfection than the state of religious folk. And therefore thobjection contained matter of great effect, and which he much needed to answer and to declare that he meant not so/ but that he meant as he now declareth, that division is between seculare priests, more lamentable than between religious, because the seculare priests be more abroad, and thereby their variance more known. Which exposition few men I ween would have thought upon before. But now that he saith he meant so: I am very well content therewith, and would that all folk should take it so to/ & yet is it ye wot well but very winter ware, and a scu●e as cold as a ●ay.   

The viii chapter.  
HIs viii chapter beginneth in the second side of his xxv. leaf, and pretendeth to answer my words written against his, in the xix chapter of mine apology, which beginneth folio. 116.  
And now he saith that I say there, that I wot not well what he meaneth in that he saith that the spirituality call the worldly honour of the church and of spiritual persons, the honour of god. And therefore he sayeth here, that he will, & so doth declare therein, what he there meant thereby.  
¶ But here is now the craft. where as I did there show what I thought he meant thereby, and therefore made answer to those things that I thought he there meant: now the matter being changed here, by his new declaration: he bringeth in mine answers made there, and confuteth them for insufficient now, when his new declaration hath made a change in the matter/ as though I had than menino answer this, that I was not than ware that he would now say, nor I ween himself neither.  
¶ But read first good readers the nineteen. chapter of mine apology beginning fo. 116. and there shall you see those words of his sufficiently answered, for the thing that me thought he meant. And than after that done, consider his answer here/ in which for all his holy piece of a sermon, what doth he tell me. He telleth me that honour is only dew to virtue, & that no man may covet honour without offence/ except it be to the honour of god, and that inordyna● appetite of honour is deadly sin/ and that if a spiritual man would accept honour by reason of any spiritual dignity, and that god were thereby dishonoured, than that honour were not to be called honour but dishonour/ and that yet some lay men say that spiritual men call it an honour to god.  
All this whole tale for all this holy sermon is yet to the matter, in maintenance of his former words which he would here seem to defend, utterly told in vain. For first in all this tale he telleth us not well what he calleth worldly honour, which he saith the spirytualty calleth the honour of god, & which was the thing that I said I wist near what honour he meant. For where he would seem to declare it: there is his declaration both very bare, & yet against him to. For in the second side of the xxvi. leaf, he drybbeth in a word of spiritual dignity/ & thus he saith. Then I mean ferther, that if any spiritual man would accept a worldly honour, by reason of any spiritual dignity, & god were thereby dishonoured, as it may be by many circumstances, as if for such worldly honour charity be in any manner broken or denied, justice delayed, any of the vii sacraments not only ministered: or the people not diligently and plainly instructed: that then it is not to be called honour to god, but rather dishonour, and that yet some say men say, they call it an honour to god. And surely the truth is, that many say men say, that for the maintenance of such worldly honour, spiritual men both religious and secular, be negligent sometime in such things, as be before rehearsed, and that yet they call such worldly honour the honour of god.  
¶ Here he hath told us that if any spiritual man would accept a worldly honour, by reason of any spiritual dignity, whereby god were dishonoured, that honour were not honour. But yet he telleth us not what manner of worldly honour it is that he meaneth to be accepted by reason of a spiritual dignity/ nor yet what manner thing such worldly honour is/ nor touching that spiritual dignity, he telleth not whither he mean a desire in any man to attain any spiritual dignity, for some kind of worldly honour that he thinketh should follow thereon, or else some worldly honour by reason of any spiritual dignity, that the man hath all ready.  
¶ I let pass his cold and unsavoury told tale of charity denied, and justice delayed, and some of the seven sacraments not duly ministered, for maintenance of such worldly honour, as some spiritual men both seculares and religious by reason of spiritual dignities accept, as some lay men say. A poor tale and a cold by my faith, to be told for a cause of an heinous universal division. For this were an endless division, if every such haught of some, should upon every some say be laid for a cause of division against the general body.  
¶ And yet bysyde all this, I say that his first words are nothing maintained with all this matter. For his first words spoke of a consent and agreement, wherein seculare priests and religious, for all the variance between themself for other things, yet agree together about the maintenance of that worldly honour that they call the honour of god. And here he speaketh but of another matter that is to wit that for the maintenance of wordly honour's spiritual men both religious and secular be negligent sometime, & in some manner break or deny charity, delay justice, & do not duly minister some of the seven sacraments, nor diligently & plainly instruct the people.  
¶ All this tale as you see to wche●h the private fawtes of some such, as for the maintenance of that worldly honour which they call god's honour, thus miss use themself. But this tale is nothing sib to his other tale, that he told and I touched before. For that spoke of such agreement all in one, that is to wit an holding together which signifieth a maintaining each of other against other men, in maintenance of that worldly honour that they call the honour of god, in like wise as for matters of their own, they be one against an other among themself.  
¶ And thus you see plainly good readers, that this manner of mayntening of his former words, is a clean going from them, and a seving of them unmayntened/ and (because he cometh upon me before in another place with cases of law) were in the law a very plain departure, and should in any of the kings courts if I demurred upon it, utterly mar all his matter.  
¶ And so it appeareth that some other some, have said this unto him sinnys to gloze his first words withal. And yet I marvel that he could think their saying worth the rehe●synge again. For who can believe that any spiritual man would be so mad, as to call worldly honour used to god dishonour, the honour of god. I can scant believe that any lay man would so tell him/ at the lest wise not with that adjection, that he now putteth new thereto.  
¶ But now if it so be that unto other side, all spiritual men would with one voice together, call the honour of god, that worldly honour that worldly folk do to the church and unto spiritual persons, for the devotion that good lay men bear to god and unto spiritual persons for God's sake, by reason of their holy orders and honourable rooms that they bear in Christ'S church/ though some of them as this man saith/ sometime do not their duty therein, but leave some part of their duties toward god's honour undone therefore: yet for the devotion of the temporal persons that for God's honour do i●, they may all well call it god's honour in deed. And therefore is this good man in that point full answered, as solemn a matter as he made thereof.  
¶ But now concerning his formare words of the agreement of all spiritual folk together, in the maintenance of their worldly honour, for all their private displeasures and dyssensyons in other things among themself/ with which he cometh in after here again, and referreth him to the comen opinion of much part of the people both spiritual and temporal, whether lay men so say or not: I say that though all men so said, yet is no man at division with them therefore. For there is no cause wherefore any man should. For it is none unreasonable thing, that sith those things which this, man speaketh of, that is to wit those spiritual dignities to which he saith such worldly honour appertaineth, are lawfully their own, each of them should in all lawful ways and such as are by no law prohibited, help & ass●ste other to keep them, though there be for private matters of their own variance & suit between them. And this may they with better conscience do each for other than each of them for themself. For in this that they do for other, is there not the sin of ambition that this man here speaketh of. And this is the part not only of spiritual men religious and seculare both, but of every good temporal man to/ and not only to do so for them, but every man also for other. And therefore what reason had those same some that so told this man, if there were any some such in deed, to take this thing for any cause of division? or why did not he so rather tell them, than put their found tale in his book?  
¶ But than one pretty piece he hath of two parts, by which he weeneth that the spirituality can in no wise escape but that they must needs be betrapped in the tone. For when he hath said that the people say that spiritual men be sometime negligent in keeping or granting charity, or in speedy doing of justice or in duly ministering some of the seven sacraments, or in plain & diligent instructing of the people: then with a proper piece of two parts thus he concludeth the matter.  
And if it be not so as the people say: then are the spiritual rulers bounden to help the people out of that judgement, or else they be not without offence themself. And on the other side, if it be as the people say ● then are spiritual men bounden to reform it.  
¶ As for this two handed sword, some young lusty free would boldly beat of with a two handed staff, and tell this man again, that if the people as he putteth for the tone part said in such things not true: than seeth he not nor no man else neither, what the spyrytnal rulers could do to put them out of that judgement, but tell them, nolite judicare et non iudicabimini/ and so will that side of the sword do this man little service. And then on the other side, if the people in these things say true as it is well likely they do: than true it is that the spyrytull men be bounden to reform it. But than is it as true again, that the thing being but such as this man rehearseth, that is to wit negligence but in some, in doing of some part of their duty, and that also but sometime, is no cause of division to set the whole temporalty againg them all, and that side of the sword the frere would with this end of his staff beat, hard unto this man's own head.  
¶ Now goeth this man farther fo. 27. and showeth that mine answer to his words which you read in the xix chapter of mine apology, be very dark, by the reason that I use therein so often this word (Some say) which is he saith done after a railing fashion. But as you know well good readers, I have taken that word Some say, of his book, in which I red it so often/ that it falleth sometime into my pen ere I be ware.  
¶ And as for the railing fashion, if I durst be bold to tell so sad a man a merry tale, I would tell him of the frere, that as he was preaching in the country, spied a poor wife of the parish wyspering with her pew fellow/ and he falling angry thereto, cried out unto her aloud, hold thy babble I bid thee, thou wife in the read hood. Which when the housewife herd: she waxed as angry again/ and suddenly she start up and cried out unto the frere again, that all the church rang thereon: marry sir I beshrew his heart that babbleth most of us both. For I do but wysper a word with my neighbour here, & thou hast babbled there all this hour. And surely good readers save for letting of the word of god in this good man's sermone: I durst well in the same word (Some say) beshrew him and beshrew him again, that most hath raised therewith of this good man or me. For read my words there when ye will, and you shall find that I with that word do but in a manner play with him. But by saint Mary he, how well so ever he meant, his words with his many (Some says) bring good men in slander and obloquy of the people, and peradventure in apparel to, with untrue surmised tallies of miss handling folk for heresy/ and all coloured under some says to make the lies seem somewhat likely. Such shrewd (Some says) lo be no merry sporting, but be sad and earnest rude railings in deed.  
¶ Then he toucheth mine answer made in the said chapter of mine apology, & double confuteth it, that I say that he hath herd some lay men say the contrary. For first he saith he never herd lay man say to him the contrary/ but that all the spiritual men religious and seculare, hold together in the maintenance of the worldly honour, that they call the honour of god, & of the riches of spiritual men.  
¶ Now you wot well I speak in the said xix chapter, that of the spirytualtye such as are fallen from the faith unto heresy, hold not at all with that honour that I thought he there had meant, that is to wit with byelding and garnishing of churches/ but be both against that, and tithes, and offerings, and obytes, and trentals, and purgatory, & mass, and al. And I had went in good faith that of so great a thing, and so much spoken of, it had happened him to hear some say men speak, but he saith nay. Well we can no farther than, but stand unto his word, and take an oath of his honesty therein, & yet I ween as honest as he is, what so ever he be, his own honest friend/ will be loath to swear with him therein.  
But than saith he farther, that though it were so: that would not yet answer his saying. It would not to say the sooth in very deed, taking his word as I ween he meant it. But taking his word to the worst (as he taketh alway mine) and yet but even as he wrote it (but if it be printed false) it is a confutation to it. For if those spiritual persons both religious and seculares, that are fallen from the faith to heresies hold not with the remanant: then pardie though they were fewer than they be, it is not all true that he sayeth, that in the maintenance of such honour they hold the gether all. And yet as I have all ready showed you, it would not help his part of a penny, though they did everychone seculares and religious, catholyqnes and heretics to. And therefore can he not say but he is in this point answered, even to the very full.  
¶ Than in the xxviii and xxix leaf he subtilely findeth a fault, that I say that there are some such of the spiritualty so fallen unto heresies, that it is pity that ever they were thereof, because he saith we should not despair of them/ but they may repent and amend. And also though they do never amend: yet I should not say so. For men may not say by the devil, that it is pity that ever he was created, because god's justice is showeth on him. We will in this matter keep no long schools. But this every man knoweth, that who so use a comen word spoken among the people, is reckoned so to mean therein, as the comen people mean that use it. And therefore sith the people that so speaketh, meaneth not to speak against amendment, but against the present wretched state that the man standeth in at the time: that word may by god's grace be borne meetly well enough. And as touching the devil, though men may not grudge against gods just punishment: yet peradventure a man might say without apparel of dampnacyom, that it was pity that he so miss used himself/ as in them that are for their heinous offences put unto painful death, though we say they were served as they well deserved, yet we let not to say it was pity that they guided themself no better. And saint Chrysostome pitieth also the devil.  
And our saviour himself pytyed Jerusalem, and for the pity wept also thereon, for the punishment that should fall thereon/ and yet was it the just punishment of god.  
¶ And though the parties afterward may mend and do good again: yet for the time till they mend, ye and after to, we may pity that they were in such case, as to hurt them whom they have all ready remedelesse destroyed, by their false doctrine deed in the damnable heresies that they learned of them, and lie therefore buried in hell. And therefore the thing that I may not absolutely pity: yet in some respects I may.  
¶ Finally he sayeth that I should not call any heretics desperate wretches. This is a sore point I assure you, to call a wretch, such as he showeth himself to be/ to call him desperate, whose living showeth no manner hope of amendment. saint Cypryane I see well was sore overseen, which in the seventh pistle of his first book, for less things than these are, calleth some folk desperate. And y●t was saint Policarpus farther eu●●sene, which calleth martion the first begotten son of the devil.  
This man hath here as he weeneth found out proper fantsyes, wherein I had liefer leave him in the liking, than lose much time in answering of such blunt subtle trifles.  
¶ But to the matter good readers concerning the formare words of his division, all be it that I have here more than fully confuted this chapter of his, for any defence that he hath for his said formare words, where about is all our matter: read yet the xviii chapter of mine apology, wherein you shall see diverse other like words of his/ and apply me mine answer there, to those other words of his which he defendeth here/ and ye shall see that he shall hove more work then enough, to defend them well, and to make them serve him to purpose.   

The ix chapter.  
HIs ix chapter beginneth in the thirty. leaf. And his formare words which he therewith defendeth and mine answer also thereto, ye shall see in the nineteen. chapter of mine apology fo. 119. Which when you have good readers there one's red over/ than forthwith while it is fresh in remembrance/ return again unto this, the ix chapter of his dialogue/ and than judge whether it any thing touch the point or not. For all this chapter is spent in preaching of restitution, full well and full truly forsooth/ and which in my poor mind I very well allow/ and would have allowed in like wise his first book very well, if there had been no worse words in it than such. But now the matter standeth all in this, that this man maketh there as though the spiritually were very busy to procure men and to induce the people, to give money to trentals, to found chantries, and obytes, and to obtain pardons, and to go upon pilgrimages, leaving their debts unpaid, and restitution unmade, which things should be done first/ and that this is the manner of the multitude of the spyritualtie. In this standeth the question. And therefore is now the point, not whether debts be first to be paid, & satisfaction of wrongs first to be made, before all these other things, wherein this man sayeth here surely full well/ but whither (as he would have it seem by his book of division) that the multitude of the spirituality, that is to wit either all save a few, or at the lest wise far the most part, do solycyte and labour lay people to the contrary manner/ that is to wit, to do those other things, rather than to pay their dettis or make restitution of their wrongs. This is I say the point. And of this point wherein all the matter standeth, this man in this ix chapter of his speaketh not one word. And therefore in this thing, standeth mine answer made in the said twenty chapter of mine apolpgye clean and clear untouched, as every man may perceive that readeth it.  
And therefore where in the second side of his xxxii leaf, this man saith thus.  
And to th'intent I would have this matter the better looked vp●on: I would here advertise sir Thomas More, not by way of argument, but for clearness of conscience, to consider whither ye the more chartable way, first to make restitution and pay debts, and relieve extreme poverty, and then to do the t'other if he have to do both/ or else to do the first and let the t'other pass.  
For this his good advertisement I ve●y heartily thank him/ & answer him as himself would wish I should, that surely me thinketh as he doth, that the more chartable way of the twain were that that himself here moveth.  
¶ But than lo by and by, he giveth me another good lesson, wherewith he would I should amend mine own fault, that he would it should seem I had in mine apology made against him. For than lo thus goeth he ferther forth.  
And if he think that this way that I move be the more charitable way, that than he help it forward, rather than the other/ and than not to blame any man that maketh that motion, as though he were against trentals, obitis, & such other. For he is not against them directly/ but only intendeth to have them changed into a more charitable order. For though prayers be right expedient and healthful to the soul: yet they serve not in all ca●es as to discharge debts or restitutions, where there is enough to pay them with/ no more than there can be founden any one salve, that can hele all manner of soores.  
¶ I neither have done that I wot of, nor willingly intend to do, blame him for any part of this charitable motion/ but think his motion right good, and that the fruit thereof if it be followed, wythe more yet than himself saith he mindeth. For he saith as you see, that he mindeth but to change obities and trentals and those other things into a more charitable disorder/ that is to wit in to paying of debts and recompensing of wrongs in them that have not of their own bysyde/ and in them that have than to pay the debts and recompense wrongs first, and do the t'other after. But me thinketh there will come yet a further profit of this order to. For where as here we speak but of him that payeth his det and recompenseth his wrongꝭ, of which folk many a man is able well to do the other when both those twain be done/ there is to the other sort of men also bysyde, to whom those wrongs are done, and those debts owing, of which sort there be many, that if their wrongs were once recompensed them, & their dettis paid them, were able and would do those other things also themself, which now for lack be not able/ & so should there of likelihood be the self things that bring (as his first book saith) richesse into the church, by this good order increased. And therefore not only have I no cause, to blame this good man for the motion of this good charitable order/ but also no more have the multitude of the priests, which might of likelihood win as much by this way as by the t'other, and more except the multitude of priests would for the readiness to take it where it is all ready, move them that have it to do these other things first, & leave their dettis unpaid & their wrongis unrecompensed, which that the multitude of prestis do/ I never herd yet a●y honest lay man, that would for very shame say. For I think it were hard to meet with a priest that w●re so wretched, but that if he were asked in that point his ad●●ce & counsel, he would in so plain a point though it were but for very shame well & plainly counsel the troth. And if percase there were some founden so shameless, that they would give counsel contrary: yet am I very sure they shu●de be far the fewer part/ and not as this good man's first book saith, the more part and the multitude.  
¶ And therefore sith this order that this good man here moveth, is so good and so charitable: I never blamed him for the motion. But though this motion in this book be good: I might well and so I did, blame his other book/ not for this motion, but for another matter, that is because it laboured under pretext of an untrue report, to bring the spirituality in slawnder and obloquy among the temporalty, by making men ween that of this charitable order which he now moveth, the multitude of the spiritualty induced men to the contrary.  
¶ This is lo the thing that I blamed. And therefore like as this good man sayeth, that one plaster can not he'll all soores: so surely this same salve of this good charitable motion can not serve this good charitable man, to salve and he'll well, this uncharitable sore.  
¶ In this motion, of this charitable order, this good man waxeth so warm, that of a good zeal he falleth in remembrance of the soul (which our lord pardon) of the most noble prince of very famous memory king Henry the vii father to the most excellent prince our sovereign lord the king that now is/ wherein after mention made of obities and chauntrees, letting the due examination requisite for restitution, suddenly thus he saith. How be it the right noble prince of blessed memory king Henry the vii father of our sovereign lord the king that now is, willed restitutions to be made. But how his will was performed I can not tell. How be it what so ever was done therein: I suppose his good intent su●fyseth to him.  
¶ What if this good man can not tell? By likelihood there is nothing owing to him thereof. For if there were: than were it likely that he could tell. For he could tell than that all the will were not performed. I have herd I wot well that the king our sovereign lord, delivered great substance into thexecutours'executors hands, to fulfil the will withal. Which how they have bestowed, this good man may (if he have th'authority) call them to the reckoning. And if he neither have authority to call for the account, nor have nothing owing to him neither: the matter than toucheth not him so near, nor so specially pertaineth unto him that he should greatly need to give all the world warning thus, that himself is not made of counsel, how the kings will is performed.  
¶ But here will this good man say that I do but mock him/ wherein I will not greatly stick with him. But surely for my poor wit, me thinketh it somewhat more civility, in some such points as this is, a little merely to mock him, than with odious earnest arguments, seryousely to press upon him. Which I would also be very loath to do, for charging of mine own conscience. And therefore in all things that me think are of great weight, though I touch his words, I accuse not his own mind & intent For in good faith I have of that man good trust, that he meaneth no worse, but would all thing were well himself/ but ever more my mind giveth me, that some wily shrews abuse the good man's simplicyte.   

The ten chapter.  
HIs ten chapter beginneth in the xxxiii. leaf, wherein he toucheth certain words of mine, written in the xxvii chapter of mine apology, that beginneth fo. 162. wherein he varieth not much with me, saving in that I say that if the prelate's of the church would withdraw from their worldly countenance, as is keeping of honestley men in their service, and keeping of a good worshipful table, and would bestow their plate & the most part of all their movables at ones upon poor folk, and yearly after the most of their yearly revenus to (of which mind I said I durst warrant well that some prelate's be, if that would as I say there, amend all these grudges) that I durst be bold to warrant as well also, that if the prelate's so did, the self same folk that now grudge and call them proud for their countenance, would then find as great a grudge, & call them ypochrytes for their almose, and would say that they spend upon naughty beggars the good that was wont to keep good yeomen, and that thereby they both enfeble and also dishonour the realm.  
¶ Upon these words of mine this good man maketh me forsooth a full goodly sermon, in the xxxv leaf of his book/ where he beginneth it with these words, I can not se. And verily if he had there left & gone no ferther: it had been well enough. For as for the thing that he speaketh of, it appeareth by his words he can not see very well in deed.  
¶ Because christ commandeth in the gospel, that we shall not judge/ and that saint Poule saith also, who art thou that judgest another man's servant/ and again biddeth us that we judge not before the time/ all which places are understand of judging certain and determinate persons to do evil, in the things that we see them do, where the things be but indifferent of themself, and may be done not evil only but well also: this good man therefore layeth these texts to touch me, for judging that some folk whom I neither assign by name, nor as yet know not who they be, will do evil hereafter, by miss judging other men.  
¶ I ween verily that saint Poule himself, at the time when he forbade us to adjudge before the time, did even than judge, that some would after that miss judge and, judge before the time to.  
¶ And albe it that our saviour saith that who so call his brother fool: is guilty to the fire ● yet he meant not of him that would say, that there were some fools abroad in the world. For if he so meant: than would there not ten fyries be pain enough for him that wrote these words in the scripture: There are of fools an infinite number.  
¶ And because this good man useth sometime this figure of examination, I would wit of master More thi● & that, I would now wit this one thing of this good man. Such sawtes as he findeth with the spiritualty written in his book of division: whither did he than judge that some of the spirituality would fall in them any more after or not? If he judged that all their fantasies toward those fawtes were all ready passed before, and that none of them would never do more so: than had he little cause to write all that work upon them.  
And un the other side if he judged that some of them would afterward do some such things again, either but if he gave them warning, or else though he did, as I dare say, what so ever himself say, in some of those things he did: than sith the time in which he judged in his mind, & made himself thereof sure, that some of them would do some such evil things afterward, as were at the time of the same judgement of his mind not comen, himself fell as you see by his own argument, in the danger of that prohibition that himself bringeth in, by which saint Poule forbiddeth and saith: Nolite ante tempus judicare. judge you not before the tyme.  
¶ Now if he say that I tell whom I mean, though not by name: yet by a sign and a token, in that I say even the same will than call them hypocrites for their almose, that now call them proud for their worldly countenance: he must consider, that I neither tell nor can tell who be they/ nor though I say the same, I say not yet all the same. And therefore no more miss judge any man determynately and in certain, than he that would say thus, as many men say in deed: even they that go now full fresh, in their guarded hosyn, and their gay golden riven shirts, and in their silken sleeves, that nought have to bear it out but gaming, will once I warrant you fall fro gaming to stealing, & start straight out of silk into hemp. Thus sayeth and thus judgeth ye wot well many a man/ and yet meaneth not that it shall so miss hap them all, but that some shall amend and do better/ and that yet his word will be verified in many, & so doth it prove in deed/ and he that so saith before, is far enough fro the dayngeour of all those texts which this good man preacheth to me.  
¶ But than he saith further, that he trusteth that those prelate's whom I say I durst warrant to be of such mind, will not defer their good purpose for no such suspicion that happily will never come, ne yet for no such uncharitable words, though they were spoken in deed. And thereupon he descendeth to the making of acts of perleament.  
¶ If those prelate's that I mean of reckoned themself very sure, that all the wit and the learning that is in the world, or within this realm either, were either in their own heads, or in this good man's and mine/ which peradventure for mine own mind cold agree well with this good man in this point, and advise those prelate's that I speak of, to follow their own mind therein, and out of hand even so to do: than have I little doubt but that they would even so do in deed But some of them have ofter been as I suppose than once, where they have heard both wise and good folk to, and peradventure yet should here again if it were as this man would have it, spoken of in the plain open perleament, that would not fail to dyssuade it, and lay no little causes why.  
¶ But I will not at this time with this good man enter in this matter, in to seryouse earnest arguments. But I shall show him a good merry cause wherefore, that though I be of his mind therein, yet I dare not advise them there to. The cause is, that I see them have so great desire & fervent concupisbence toward it, that I am afeard to counsel them follow it, because of the scripture that saith, Post concupiscentias tuas ne eas. After thy concupiscences go thou not.  
¶ I will make no longer tale upon this matter. For if you read my xxvii chapter, in which my words are that we now dispute upon: I trust you shall not think them so very far out of the way, but that they may be written, without offence of Christ'S gospel well enough.  
¶ And also concerning this word, proud worldly countenance, whereof we speak here: vouchsafe good readers to read my xxx chapter of mine apology, which beginneth in the leaf .174.   

The xi chapter.  
HIs xi chapter beginneth in the xxxvi. leaf/ wherein first he showeth that I rehearse right, and conster amiss this word of his. And therefore.  
¶ You shall find my words good readers upon these whole words that he rehearseth here, in the xxxiiii and xxxv chapter of mine apology/ of which to tone begyyneth fo. 183/ & the t'other beginneth fo. 184.  
¶ Here this man declareth that the word of his book, which here also he well & truly rehearseth, do not import that himself sayeth the thing which I by those words, and among other by this word therefore/ affirm there that he saith as of himself/ But he sayeth that the words prove plain, that he sayeth it, but only of the report of much other folks thinking, and not as of his own saying.  
¶ Surely neither now, nor in any place of mine apology, I neither have done nor intend to charge this man, that his mind & purpose was such in his intent, as the great lykelyhed of his words, would give men occasion to think. But un the other side, that the words have given me good occasion and sufficient, to say as I there have said: who so read the said two chapters of mine apology, shall by the whole circumstance of the matter very well I suppose perceive. And you shall over that, if after those two chapters red, you return to his own declaration here in his xi chapter, well perceive also that to cover slily that oversight of his (for surely I think it was none other) he leaveth out properly in one place this word therefore whereupon a good piece of all the matter hangeth. For in the end of the xxvi leaf so, thus he handleth wilily the matter.  
And in that he saith, that I say plainly those worde● my seflfe/ he saith plainly against the ●etter of the said treatise/ which ye that they have punished many persō●, which much people have judged them to do upon will/ and not that I said so myself.  
¶ Now good readers in this rehearsal of his own word, he rehearseth his own words wrong. For here he leaveth out as I told you the word that maketh the matter. Which he rehearsed himself in the whole context before. For his words were not, that they have punished many persons, which much people have judged them to do upon will, but that therefore they have punished many persons/ which much people have judged them to do upon will etc. Now when he saith himself that they have punished many therefore, that is to wit for the same cause, and hath before also showed a cause of his own divination to, & hath used the same word therefore in the same fashion before/ and this word therefore which signifieth for the same cause, hath here in his last clause nonecessarye place to the complement of the sentence following: it appeareth that he saith therein two things, both that they therefore, that is to say for the same cause next before spoken of, the cause that himself there imagineth, have punished many/ and also that (as he saith it so) much people judged the same.  
¶ And this shall you the more clearly mark, if you turn these words. And therefore they have punished many which much people etc. in to these words (whereof the sentence is alone) And for that cause they have punished many which much people etc.  
¶ And therefore, that is to say for that cause which I before told you, that is to wit that you should not perceive this point, this man in his last rehershall as you have herd, bringing the thing to the trial, left his therefore out. But read my said two chapters/ & than as for the sentence of his open words, I trust you shall believe me. As for the secret meaning of his mind, I pray you believe him. For so that you believe not the shrewd words of his book, I would to choose you should believe well of the good man himself.  
¶ Now where he saith in the xxxvii leaf, that he thinketh I change his matter, because I would be loath to have it reported, that much people take it so: verily I change not his matter. But troth it is that I am loath to have that thing so reported about. For truly the report abroad is nought all though it were not untrue.  
¶ And were as for the farther maintenance of his matter, he saith that if I make search therein to know the truth, I shall find that much people take it so, that many which have been punished for heresy, the spirituality have done it of no love but of will, for such evil mind as in the book is there imagined of them: he hath of lykelyhed himself made search to find it so. For as for me though I go not about to search that point of purpose: yet I have talked with many one in this mean while, & yet I thank god it is not my fortune to find out that same much people that take it so. And if there were much people that so did, it were their own fault/ wherein I can not devise what the spiritualty might do to change them, but only pray god to mend them.  
And as for me, if there were much people that so took it, as I trust in god verily there is not: I would as my duty were be surely very sorry for them/ but in this cause of troth, truly I would not flatter them. For though that sort of people were never so much in deed: yet is the troth in that point so clear against them, that if their minds were such, it were both great shame for them to say it, and also great sin to think it.  
¶ And surely that their saying is false and nought in his own secret judgement: you may see good readers by this that he laboureth so sore to put it from himself, and would be so loath to have it taken for his own. And therefore while himself thought their saying so false, he should not have told it after them. Nor now should he not send me to search and seek them, but to save his own honesty/ lest men might think he feigned, he should seek out & bring forth some of those shrewd sayers himself.  
¶ Another thing this man toucheth in the same chapter, concerning that second sort of people whom I say in some places of mine apology, that this man calleth polytyques. And here he declareth that he doth not so/ and proveth it by like words spoken of a good man's mouth by an hypocrite, of whom a man may say: This man useth himself as he were a virtuous man/ and yet call him not virtuous. And so might this man say that they spoke heresies as of policy, and yet call them not politic.  
¶ But here must he now consider, that who so speak such words in such fashion by an hyprycryte, saith it in his desprayse and in detestation of such hypocrisy/ and therefore he that so sayeth, showeth that by such words he taketh not the hypocrite for virtuous. And therefore read good readers this man's whole process of his three sorts of people together, which you shall find in the xxi chapter of mine apology fo. 123/ and than if you find his words of their spekyng● such heresies as of policy, in like manner spoken by him in dispraise of heretics, as he putteth here his sample of those words spoken by a good man in dispraise of hypocrites/ & not spoken by a way of giving them by that word as of policy a colourable excuse for defence of sewing their heresy: then am I content, that every man take it that I miss report him shamefully. And else I trust look in all the places in which I speak thereof, and you shall soon judge, that upon his words used to such purpose as he there useth them: I may well use the words of his politics in such wyse●as I use it.  
¶ And as for the tinker and the tiler, that he speaketh of in the end of the chapter/ and saith god forbid but that they● were dismissed and went home about their business, if they can by any reasonable and true allegiance, so order themself, that it may appear that they ought to be dismissed of justice: therein hold I well with him and god forbid else to/ for else might they lose between them, the tone the price of his trowel, and the t'other of his clouted ketyll. But look good readers in mine Apology the xlviii chapter, which beginneth fo. 272/ and that done, I doubt not but you shall find for the tylare and the tynkare/ for heresy there called in of office, this good word so spoken here, but a very vain word of office/ and that the tynkare would have tynked out of his pans bottom, a reason that would at the lest wise ring a little better than this.   

The xii chapter.  
HIs xii chapter beginneth in the xxxviii. leaf/ which because it is a good sweet sermone & a short, made unto myself, to put me in remembrance how I should ●ere the like light fautis of other men, as I some time fall in myself: I shall take his chapter in here even hole. Lo good readers thus it saith.  
Master More in the .217. leaf of his Apology, speaking of defaults, that as he thinketh, should have been laid for causes of this division, concludeth thus: If there be such a division: whereby it appeareth that he doubteth, whether there be any division or not: for this conjunction, if, purporteth always a doubt. And after in the same apology, fo. 241. he confesseth plainly, that there is a division/ and maketh no doubt at it: and he calleth it there the late sprung division. And so in one place to make a doubt, whether there be such a division or not/ and in another place to agree, that there is such a division/ seemeth to be a variance and contradiction in it self: how be it surely I do not intend to lay that variance to him as for any notable default: For a like thing may soon happen in any man by a light oversight. But the cause why I speak of it is this, to put him in remembrance/ that he hereafter ought the rather to bear such light defaults of o●her the more charitably/ sith he himself hath like wise been oue● seen. For we be all grayle ignorant and unstable/ though we be esteemed and taken as angels in cure conversation. And therefore is it said in the first book of the following of christ the xvi chapter, that no man is in this world without default, no man wytho●te burden, no man sufficient to himself, no man wise enough of himself. Wherefore it beh●ueth each one of us to bear the burden of other, to comfort other, to help other, to enform● other, and to instruct and admonish other in all charity. And if we will note well the said words, we shall the sooner learn this lesson/ to do in all things as we would be done to: and to do nothing that we would not have done to be. And that is as I tak● it one of the most sovereign doctrines that is/ to instruct a man how he shall in e●ery thing concerning his neighbour, keep himself in a clear conscience, learn it who so may●.  
¶ Lo good readers, first he bringeth forth mine oversight, in contradiction used between mine own words/ and after with good words and fair, excuseth my fault, by such oversight of frailty as may soon happen in a man. And then he putteth me after in remembrance, that I must bear such things the more charitably in other men, sith I am overseen likewise myself. He fareth in all this tale, as though we sat together playing at post. For first he casteth my contradiction as a vie, to wit whither I would give it over with a face. And because that will not be, falleth after to treaty, and would fay●e part the stack, and divide all such oversyghtes between us. But all this is in vain/ for I am as sure of this game and there lay. xx.li. upon it, as he that hath three acies in his hand.  
¶ For look good readers in his own first chapter of this book of his and there shall you see the thing tha● shall serve me, sufficiently shew●● even by his own words, that there is no such contradiction in mine. And than look mine answer to the same/ and than shall you see it yet more clearly. Or else if any man be loath to turn the levys, and look bakke: ye shall need to take no business in turning back at all. For he soileth his argument himself against himself, even in the making thereof, and all with one word unware.  
¶ For now read it again/ and you shall see that he sayeth himself, in the tone place I say, If there be any such division. And so because this conjunction If, he saith inporteth all way a doubt: therefore he saith that foe .217. I doubt whither there be any such division or not. And after he saith that in the other place I confess that there is a division/ and call it there the late sprungen division. Lo now he forgetteth this little short word, this monasyllable, such, which he rehearsed first in bringing forth my first place/ and then by and by, either of forgetefulnes or else of wiliness, leaveth out in his illation that he maketh upon the same words of mine.  
¶ Now good readers you see well that to say there is a division, and to say there is no such division, be nothing contrary at all. For I did in deed not deny but that some division there was, that is to wit some little variance in some place begun, and by some few naughty folk blown forth to far (For a little way is to far in such a thing). But than mean I a division such as it is, not such a division as this man by his book maketh it. I may well without contradiction say to him, There is a division/ and yet say that there is no such division as he speaketh of. For it is not all one to say there is a division, and ●o say there is such a division.  
¶ Now if I would stick with him upon tryflies: I could prove him that If, doth not alway purport a doubt, as he sayeth that it alway doth, but is sometime used to confirm a certainty. As if a man say he that dieth in deadly sin shall go to the devil, if god's word be true, doubteth not of the truth of god's word/ but by the truth thereof, meaneth to confirm the damnation of them that die in deadly sin.  
¶ But I say not this as though it should be like in mine. For I do not in deed take If there in such fashion. And therefore I will not do here by If, as this man doth by As, in his chapter next before, in heresies spoken as of policy/ using the sample of words spoken by a good man in reproaching of hypocrysee, to be like his own words spoken in the minishing of their blame, that under such pretext of policy/ would speak and sow about plain and open heresy. I need here no such ways for my words. For here have you seen yourself by his own words, that there is in my words, no contradiction at all.   

The xiii chapter.  
HIs xiii chapter beginneth in the xxxix. leaf/ and by the rehearsing of diverse words of his own in divers other places of his book, here he declareth his mind that he intended not in his book of division, to bring in among the people any hatred against the spirituality.  
¶ Now in deed I do myself declare expressly, in many places of mine apology, that what so ever words I speak therein, yet I meant ever more th'intent of his book and not of his person. And all though that in some places I say the pacifier here doth this or that, to this evil purpose or that: yet I mean ever, the deed his, the malice of the purpose some other wily shrews/ which not being fully of so good catholic mind as I think all way this man is himself (which openly dispraiseth these new broached heresies, and with detestation of them rehearseth them by name) have abused his plain simplycyte/ making him ween good soul, thou while he did put in of his own good mind, these good words which he rehearseth here, and with them here & there in some sundry places pretyly powder the book, it could not be taken that there were any hurt meant in the hole work together, how evil words and how malicious so ever the soot shrews made him stuff up the book with bysyde. Was not that a sinful wily way of them, to beguile a good simple soul so? For I wysse it is eth to see, that if the good man were not of himself very simple & plain, those double wily shrews could never deceive him so, as to make him ween that these words which he rehearseth here in his xiii chapter, were any manner token that his book of division, meant not to bring the clergy in hatred among the people.  
¶ For who were there that so intending, would yet for shame utterly say that there were none good/ and not rather to keep his credence in slawndering the body, would cast in sometime an exception of some? In such craft is no great sleight. It is but a comen plain point, and as easy to spy as a long nose upon a little face/ specially while as clearly as he saith that there be many good, yet as you may see folio .238. of mine apology, he saith plainly that it is hard to find any one, with out that point, that (if he say therein true) the very best is very nought, and as bad as a very best.  
And for the ferther proof of this point, read mine answer to his xvii chapter in this book.  
¶ And where he speaketh here of the fere that he would every man should have of the lest censures of the church, as though he therein meant much the favour of spiritual men: consider the place even here in his new book, where he speaketh of inquisitions o● heresies in his xvii chapter, and you shall well perceive that they that made him there put those words in, meant little good to the clergy. For it is there laid in a matter full chyldyshly to their charge/ as though they would have all the justices of the peace and all the juries of the realm, accursed for inquiring of heresy.  
¶ But yet is it of all things a v●ry special pleasure to see how he useth here for a plain apparent proof of his good mind toward the spiritualty, that he wisheth well for them, and prayeth god to send them habundauntely zeal of souls, pity, good doctrine, and devowt prayer. And saith that than a new light of grace should shortly shine etc. and that he saith also, that it is great pity and much to be lamented, that the spirituality do not fast and pray and do other good deeds, to cease the division withal/ but that all that ever they do therein most commonly, is that they take it that they that find default at their abusions and miss order, love no priests/ but do all of malice that they do, to destroy the church and to have their goods and possessions themself/ and that therefore the clergy think it a good deed to see them punished/ and therefore (that is to say for that same cause) have they punished many persons, which much people judge to have been done of will etc. And saith also that they do continued still after their old course, pretending by confederacyes, worldly policy, and straight corrections, to rule the people/ where he useth these things which I have here rehearsed out of his xiii chapter of this his new book, and somewhat made them more plain, with adding thereto his own other words written in his division/ as you may read in mine apology fo. 158. in the xxvi chapter, and answered there at length, in the same chapter and diverse other in order there ensuing, of which this man hath answered to some very little, and to the most part and the chief part no thing: now is he so simple, that he useth the same things/ for a proof that he beareth the clergy very good will and mindeth not to bring them in obloquy/ which he would we should take for a thing plainly proved, because he pitieth & lamenteth them therein, and so bitterly prayeth god to make them good and amend them.  
¶ This good man many times taketh record of his own conscience that he meaneth well, in such things as his words make many good men ween, that he meant very nought.  
And therefore will I now be bold in this point, to take record of his own conscience, whither himself, if one that knew his name, would write such a work so to wching him, as his work of division toucheth there the clergy/ and would therein under so many Some says, say that he were as evil as he saith there that they be (for worse could lightly no man say) would himself hold him satisfied, and think that the writer meant him none harm, because he powdered his shrewd slanderous some says, with lamenting and pityenge that the man is no better.  
And would he ween by his troth, that the writer meant not to call him graceless, because he prayed god habundauntely to send him grace? nor to call him witless, because he prayeth god send him wit? Surely if he can think so: than shall he well show himself so simple a soul, as men may well see that some wily shrews beguile him. And on the other side if he be wiser than to think so: than he well showeth himself more wily in this same xiii chapter of his, than to mean so well in his wurcke of division as he would here make men ween.  
¶ Now where he saith these words Also I say not in all the said treatise, that the spyrytua●tye make confederacies against the temporalty/ but I say that they continue still after the old course, in not doing good deeds/ but pretending by confederacies, worldly policy, & strait corrections, to rule the people.  
Who could write thus, but either he that were a man of very innocent simpleness, or he that intendeth to mock of a shrewd wily dowblenese For (saving that his word pretending signifieth not in deed the thing that he for lack of language pretendeth here thereby) to go about not to do good to the people, but by confederacies with wiliness and straight corrections, to rule the people: what thing calleth he this but confederacies against the people.  
¶ How be it sith this chapter goth but to the discharging of his own personal intent, that he meant not himself maliciously what so ever his book speak: I will not therefore wrestle against it much, but would he were well believed in that thing. But yet if you read the places of mine apology, and compare them with such parts of his book as I there speak of: ye shall well and clearly see, that though the man in his own mind meant it not himself, yet the thing that I say was the meaning of his book.   

The xiiii chapter.  
HIs xiiii chapter beginneth in the xiii. leaf. In the beginning thereof he laboureth to prove that he did not (as I in mine apology, say that he did) go about in his book of division, to make men ween that the spiritual iudgis in this realm handled men for heresy so cruelly, that all the world had cause to wonder and grudge thereat/ which thing that I should so say, this good man much marveleth at.  
For I said no more (saith he) But that it were pity it should be so, and that it should be true that is reported, that there should be such a desire in spiritual men to have men ●biure, or to have men have extreme punishment for heresy/ as it is sayde● that there is.  
¶ Reed good readers the xlv chapter of mine apology beginning fo. 243● and than shall you find this answer of his a very bare naked thing This man answereth here as though he trusted that all the world were woodcokkys save himself/ and that his fair figure of some say, were so wilily found, that men had not the wit to see thereby what his book meaneth, & what work it goth about. But this I doubt not, but that if either himself or such another man, would devise me such another book, either against the nobility of the realm, or against the judges of the same, or against the high court of perleament itself, which were soon done if a man in like wise list to slander & to bylye them/ nor it could not I wot well what so ever he said therein, be lyghty worse or more false than that book of his division, concerning the point that we speak of, that is to wit this false slander of the spiritual judges in miss handling men for heresy, as it hath ofter than ones before the lords of the kings most honourable counsel upon like false bills and complaints of particular persons by good examination been proved/ and than if he that would make I say of the nobility, the judges, or the perleament, such another book would bring in all his false tallies against them under the self same fair figure of some say, and many say, & they say/ and than say that himself would say no piece thereof, but only that it were pity that it should be true, that it were so as many folk reportei is so, and than preach and pray god send them the grace that they do not so: I dare be bold to say that there is no wise man, but he would both soon see and say, that the man with such false losings went about to diffame and slander them, and make the people ween that it were so.  
¶ Than after this thing so fetely skused: he declareth his words again, which he spoke in his division of speaking heresies of lightness, or of a passion. And because I answered him in mine apolygye, that if such things should be excused by lightness & by passions, than might there pass by much lewdness and much mischief to/ the beginning whereof groweth of lewd lightness & of evil passions: herein he showeth that there is difference in deeds, and that some be more & some be less. And because I did put for samples, manslaughter and advowter, which he thought was to high to be likened to speaking & talking heresy: he bringeth it somewhat again to base, and putteth other samples of one speaking an angry word, & yet would not kill one/ & one that hath a passion of adultery, & yet doth not the deed/ & saith that his treatise meant not obstinate deadly passions, but passions of ignorance & of frailty, & done for lack or good advisement.  
¶ As for his passion of ignorance, he may put up again. For what so ever he say, he shall not find I dare warrant him while he liveth, but that the things that heretics are punished for, be such things as be well & openly known for heresies, & to have been before condemned for heresies by the comen known doctrine of the whole catholic church.  
¶ Now as touching his passions for frayeltye & for lack of good advisement: doth there no man kill another even suddenly upon a passion of anger, for lack of good advisement? doth never none unthrifts upon a passion of lechery, suddenly fall together in adultery for lack of good advisement?  
¶ Ye will this man say, but these fo●ke do the deed. That is very troth in deed. But yet they do the deed, but of a passion of frailty, for lack of good advisement. In that advoutry, the malice is the lack of goodness in the will to the keeping of god commandments ¶ And yet even in those passions to, though the further deed be not done, no man neither killed nor stricken, nor none adultery done in deed, though the laws of the world for lack of power to look into y●●arte, can not punish the bare intent of such things: yet our saviour saith himself very sore words therein, and saith that himself taketh their wills for their deeds.  
¶ But now in heresy the words be the work. For not only the speaking, but also the defending thereof, is in words to.  
¶ But a man saith he, may speak heresy of lightness, & of a passion of frailty, & yet not entend● to fall fro the faith. So may a man speak very lewd and right traitorous words by his prince to, of a passion and of a frailty, without an inward intent and purpose to procure his destruction. But than will this man peradventure say, that than be such words yet no treason, without some manner of overt & open actual deed therewith. Whither they be treason or not, yet in any english book that I would put in prente, I would as thus advised, advise every man for fere of treason, beware of all such lewd language/ and not under colour to teach the judges their part, go tell the people without necessity, that though they talk traitorous words, yet it is no treason, as this good man in his book of division telleth them, that to talk heresies is none heresy  
¶ Now as I said before, concerning heresy which is the treason to god, the outward act thereof by which men must judge whither the man fall fro the faith or not, standeth in the words. And therefore both wisdom and reason will, that folk well be ware upon the apparel of heresy, that they forbear all talking of heresy, as may declare their mind that they believe such heresy.  
¶ That I will well agree will this good man say. But than I would they should be ware, by mean of chartable warning given to their persons. I would verily ween, that in a matter so heinous and of such weight, whereof so much harm may grow by the sufferance, the spiritual law that giveth him leave to abjure at the first, and in so great a crime saveth once his life, giveth him a warning as chartable and as large, as in a crime so perilous reason can well bear. And that should we soon feel, if we would give the like lie bertye for one's warning, to every less crime than that/ & shall shortly feel it in heresies, if besides tha● we give them less fere and more liberty in bold talking and teaching without other parel than warning.  
¶ For as for the order of warning that this man here provideth, in this xiiii. chapter of his new book, taking a colour and a pretext of the gospel of christ, that speaketh of an order of monitions, requiring a tract of time, before any open denunciation: I will not much stick upon. For I purpose not to make a long process upon every found piece of his devices, wherein thy good man is content to lose time and spill paper. But I will say this and say troth, that thordinaries, of this order that he speaketh, do use in deed as much as may well be borne, and sometime I fear me more to.  
¶ For this must this good man vnd●rstande, that this good soft slow sober order, that he describeth here, may not all, & always, be kept, neither in heresy nor treason, nor some other great crimes neither, without great hurt and damage to the comen weal, and utter loss and destruction of many a good simple soul, that should by this order alway kept, parish in the mean while.  
¶ Nor our saviour meant not in his words, that if I wist one that were walking about mischief, that would go give such drink about as should poison them that drunk thereof, that than I should use all that tract of time, rather than cause him be taken up by time at the first soap that I see him give any man to syppe upon. Nor that tract is not therefore to be used with them, that speak and boldly talk heresies about, & thereby do plainly teach them, though they bid not the hearers learn them. For (as saint Poule speaketh of such heresies) evil communication corrupteth good manners. which words though the greek poet Menander meant by the communication of other fleshly lewdness: yet the blessed apostle used them and applied them specially, to the lewd communication of heresies, which with such bold naughty talking creepeth forth and corrupted (as saint Poule also saith) like a corrupt canker. And therefore as I say, such a long sober tract before their calling by the ordinary course of the law, as not alway to be used of necessity with every such manner man, and let them poison other good simple souls in the mean season, which they may do percase with such communication, though they neither minded in their own heart, to make any other men heretics, nor to be he retyques themself.  
¶ And yet would there beside this, some such as well wist their mischievous dealing to be such, and so well able to be plainly proved, as the ordinary could not without god's displeasure let them after pass unpunished/ would at the first word spoken by the ordinary to him at large, flit out of that place/ and as I have in mine apology said, and as we see it often proved, go keep like scoles in another.  
¶ But yet because I have herd say even while I was writing this, that the mild sober order which this good man hath here in this chapter devised, is very well liked, and hath been well praised with some such folk as myself have had some communication with ere this: I will therefore not hide it nor keep it away from you, but give you good readers here even his own words, fo. 45. he saith.  
And now will I say a little farther in this matter/ concerning such words, that is to say, that if any man now in this dangerous time, while this division continueth, will show unto the ordinary that he heard any speak words, that as he thought s●ode not with the catholic faith/ and the ordinary miss liketh the words also: I would then think/ that if he upon whom the information is made, be such a man/ that he that complaineth of him may conveniently speak to him without danger/ that than the ordinary shall advise him to keep the matter secret, if it be yet secret/ and not openly known: and that he shall than chartable ask of him/ what he meant by these worde●. And than when the question is asked him, if he make so reasonable an answer/ that it soundeth ●o no heresy/ than is the matter answered. And if he avow the words/ and yet they be in deed against the catholic faith: than it seemeth good/ that he that accused him, follow the gospel/ and take witness with him/ and eft charitably give him monition thereof. And if he will yet stand still opynatynely in his opinion/ and not accept the good monition of the other: than I think it good that he again inform the ordinary thereof/ and than it seemeth to be convenient that the ordinary send for him/ not as for a man yet notoryousely known or detected for an heretic/ but to know farther, whether it be true as the other hath reported or not: and if he find it true by sufficient proof/ or by his own confession and he will not be reform, than it seemeth covenyent/ that he upon the witness of the other/ be p●nyshed as he hath deserved. And if he will be by the ordinary secretly reform: than it seemeth good, that he depart without any o●●n penance: but what were convenient to be there b●ne in that matter, I will commit it to other.  
¶ Consider now good readers the commodile of this order. You see that he speaketh of one that speaketh such words, as to the hearers seem heresy. For both he so taketh them that informeth th'ordinary of them, and so doth th'ordinary to. Now may you perceive by the progress of his device, that though there were more thamn one that herd him, or more than twain, or ten either: yet would he not that the ordinary should send for him/ but first assay by some such as herd him, what he will say there to when he is asked the question what thing himself m●nt thereby. And then if he have the wit to say that he meant in his words but such a thing as that meaning soundeth to none heresies (which wit heretics enough have) than is all the matter answered. For than ye wot well a wily heretic by this wise order, may be bold with gloss ready proved, so say what he will and where he will. For the ordinary may not send for him to lay those ●eretycal words to his charge, and to consider upon the circumstance of his dealing in such talking, peradventure in diverse places used whether he meant as himself declareth it, or meant to teach the thing that he spoke, and to heap his declaration in store for a excuse. This first point alone of this good man's order if it were surely observed, were enough to fill an whole town shortly full of heresies.  
¶ Than goth he farther to a second point, that if he that spoke heresies, will when he is asked the question avow them: yet shall not he that herd him resort unto thordinary but go fetch witnesses first, before whom if the fellow be so foolish to confess them, and so frantic as to avow them, than this good man giveth them leave to go tell th'ordinary the tale and accuse him. But now if he have the wit before the witnesses to lie and say that he never said them, or to say that he will say so no more: then is all the mate● yet safe enough again/ it shall never need that ever the ordinary here any more word of him/ but let him go forth and use that fashion still, in as many companies as he cometh. For that ye wot well can do no hurt. But and if every man to whom he speaketh heresy secretly, and secretly would make more heretics, should secretly inform the ordinary/ & that he should upon twenty such secret informations, afterward call him forth openly, and after upon their open depositions, openly make him abjure, and bear a faggot or accurse him for his obstinacy/ and after an whole years sufferance finally for his immedicable malice, as a desperate wretch deliver him to the seculare hands, where a faggot should bear him: this were a cruel dealing of the ordinary, and a miss handling of a good honest man for heresy.  
¶ And yet goeth he farther a little, that though he hold it and avow his heresies afore the witnesses: thordinary should not yet for all that proceed against him openly, but speak with him secretly. And though he avow them before himself to: yet should he not by this good man's advise, proceed agaynste● him by ordinary means openly, but let him depart without open penance, if the fellow be so wise as at last (rather than he would come thereto) say that he will amend and will say such things no more.  
But than after all this, what were convenient to be farther done he will he saith remyt unto other men. And so were it much need in deed. How be it if this order that he deuyse●h here, were well observed for so far forth as he goeth: I ween all the world could not well devise farther, sufficiently to reform and remedy the mischief that his chartable devise would do.  
¶ How be it the best is therein, that he deviseth not this order for a thing to stand for ever/ but for this time now he saith which is he saith a dangerous time, while this dyvyuysyon continueth.  
¶ But now so is it good readers that whether this time be so dangerous as he speaketh of or no, or whether there be in this time such division as he maketh or no: sure it is I say, that even in this same time heresies begin to grow a great deal faster than they have been wont in some other times past/ and therefore is this time so much the worse to use ●uch order in, than were another time, wherein there were many fewer.  
For if this pacifier will now be so peaceable, as to devise such an order that all mischievous factyous folk should be suffered in peace: he shall with his peaceable order (if it were observed) bring the world in that case, that good peaceable folk that fain would live in peace, should not for such inquiete and unrestful wretches without some rufle live in peace long.  
¶ Were it not a wise order ween you if he would in like wise devise for thiefs the same soft chartable fashion that he deviseth here for heretics? that is to wit that men should to him that had stolen an horse, or rob an house, go give him a monition first and then if he say that he did it not or that he would do so no more, take all the matter for safe/ and than say that he would not have that order all way kept, but only in such dayngerouse times as many folk would fall to theft. For than were it good to spare them and speak them fair, and suffer them till they would wax fewer of themself/ and than after that, use against them the laws & the old order again. Would not this wise way trow you do well in theft? For sooth it were away as far unwise & as far against reason in heresy, as either in theft or murder or any other manner crime.  
¶ And surely me seemeth that where he calleth this a dayngerouse time: he useth a very dangerous word/ and to fere the ordinaries with all, would make the world ween, that heretics were here so many and so strong, that th'ordinary might not now do their duties in subduing heresies, without great danger. Wherein there is as great danger yet, and shall I doubt not in the kings grace's days that now is, and long moat be, as there is in the paring of an apple. How be it I will not deny him this indeed, but that if such dangerous words of his division, may make th'ordinary afeard of their own shawdow a while: it may grow to some danger at the last.  
¶ But than goeth ●e farther with another remedy, that I trust in god shall never need. For I trust in god there never shall in this realm, any such great parsonage fall into heresy, as th'ordinary dare not proceed according to the law against him. How be it in case it should happens than this good man provideth for the remedy (to say the troth) very well, that is to wit that thordinary should have recourse unto the king, that his highness upon petition made unto him, and information given him, may (as no doubt were there but he would) with his royal assistance, provide a mean sufficient, that the course of the law might precede.  
¶ This is well devised. And here in he playeth the good kow, & giveth v● a good galon of milk. But than shall you see how he playeth the shrewd know again, and turneth over the pail even by and by with his heel. For upon this good devise, he forth with addeth this shrewd saying to it.  
But as long as there is an opinion among the people/ that the ordinaries & their officers will give lytght credence upon informations made to them of heresy/ and that they will noise them that be complained on a● heretics/ before due examination in that behalf; so long will the people grudge and peradventure the king not give his assistance so readily to have them attached as he would do, if he heard that the ordinaries noised no man to be an heretic without due examination, as is before rehearsed.  
¶ If this good man had as much wit as I see well he lacketh: I would wax evil content with him, that he should once conceive any such opinion of the kings gracious highness, as that his grace would any thing be the more remiss to give royal assistance unto thordinaries, about the attaching of such as are suspect of heresy, as long as his grace heard that th'ordinary noised that any man were an heretic without such dew examination as this man afore rehearsed. For the kings high prudence very well perceiveth, that if he should forbear till that time that he should hear no such thing said by them: it were almost as much to say, as he should give no asystence against heretics, till all heretics were gone. For never shall there lack such a false seditious fame against the ordinaries, as long as there are heretics here & there to sow it, and such seditious books of division, with such untrue Some says to blow it farther abroad.  
The untruth of such false fame, hath been before the kings honourable counsel of late well and plainly proved all ready, upon sundry such false complaints by the kings gracious commandment examined. And all be it that this is a thing notoriousely known, and that I have also myself in mine apology spoken thereof, and that synnies that book gone abroad, it hath been in like wise before the lords well & plainly proved in more matters a fresh/ and all be it that this water wessheth away all his matter: yet goeth ever this water over this goosies back/ & for any thing that any man can do, no man can make it sink unto the skin that she may once feel it/ but ever she shaketh such plain proves of with her feathers of Some say and they say the contrary. Is not this a pretty proper way? And therefore thus you see good readers, that this man's devicies in his order to be taken with such as speak heresies, be very vicious and have they never so fair a fleering at the first face: yet when they be considered well, they be founden far worse than nought. And yet was I not minded as you may see, to have examined them so far, saving that even while I was in writing of this chapter, and about to leave of: word was brought me that this device of his order for heresy, was with some folk whom myself have known, so specially well commended. ¶ But yet will this man say, & in effect so he doth, master More will not say for all this that every thing that a man speaketh which if he obstinately would hold he w●re an heretic, is enough to judge every such man an heretic, as doth in any manner speak it.  
¶ I will not at this time vary with this good man for that, nor dispute with him upon the troth of the tale, there be so many manner ways of speaking. For a man may speak thereof in dispraise thereof. But this will I say to him. That tale and such other like, were they never so true, were yet as me seemeth much better out of his english printed book than in it.  
¶ For if he think it necessary to write it, because of any folk whom he thinketh necessary to learn it: either he meaneth that they need it, which are the spiritual judges, or else the comen people. Now as for the judges, verily I have known and do know many of them, & yet knew I never none so simple of wit, nor so far unlearned, but for any wit or learning that I perceive in this man, the worst of them wist a great deal better what pertained unto their part and their duty in such points as these are, than doth this good man here.  
¶ Than if he say he putteth it in, because that though they know it they miss use it, and do the contrary and so do thereby miss handle the kings people, and put them to cruel punishment unjustly: than I ask him how he proveth that lie to be true? Thereto ye wot well he will bring forth for the plain proof of his plain troth in the matter his old three worshipful witnesses which stand yet all unsworn that is to wit Some say, and They say, & folk say. And than hath he now brought forth other two, whom he maketh as me seemeth both as witnesses & judges to, that is the good silly soul Symkyn Salem, and his right honest neighbour brother Byzance. Well I am content I, that all his five witnesses be sworn & well examined, how they know the things that they report/ & than those spiritual judges of whom they shall so speak and prove, set it be laid unto their charges. And if you find of such so many, and their dealing so cruel or unjust, as this man maketh it, or any thing well toward it: then am I content that ye shall for them believe all the remanant the worse. And yet is that I wysse somewhat with the most. And than am I content that you believe also, that this man had for that cause/ a necessary occasion and a profitable, to put that tale in his bate making book.  
¶ But in the mean while, I lay against him for that point, and against all his five worshipful witnesses to, the deed & the report of the greatest and the most honourable temporal lords of the kings most honourable counsel, and other right worshipful temporal men of the same with them, which by the gracious commandment of the kings highness, have examined diverse such complaints, at the suit of the parties themself and their friends, & have thereupon founden the same complayntꝭ false, & that th'ordinary have done them but right, and that with great favour to.  
¶ And therefore as for this point, the truth being so substantially proved upon this side, by all his five forenamed witnesses, on the other side set I not five straws. And therefore good readers as for this point, his putting of that piece in his book of division, had neither necessity nor profit/ except it were either necessary or profitable to sow a evil seed against good folk, of untrue reprovable slander in his own writing, under the colour of some other men's unproved words.  
¶ Than resteth there as far as I can see but one cause behind, that should excuse him. And that is that it was a thing profitable for the people, to know that though a man of a lightness or of a passion growing of ignorance or of frailty, speak and ●alke heresies at liberty: yet but if he defend it opinatyvely, he should not be taken for an heretic thereby. Deryly good readers if this tale were true: yet would I ween as I said, this tale unto the people as good unwritten as written, & a great deal better to.  
¶ As for this good man or any man else, I can not let them to write what they list, and say they think it good be it never so bad in deed. But I durst in my conscience no more use this fashion of writing concerning heresy, than I would use it in writing any book, whereof I would speak of either treason or any other felony/ except some other necessary occasion should happily drive me thereto, as no good occasion in his book of division drove this good man thereto.  
¶ If I were again to read in Lincoln's Ine & there were in hand with a statute that touched treason and all other felonies: I would not let to look, seek out and rehearse whither any heinous words spoken against the prince, were for the only speaking to be taken for treason or not.  
¶ Nor I would not let in like wise to declare, if I found out any casy● in which a man though he took an other man's horse against the law, should yet not be judged for a fellow thereby. And this would I not only be bold there to tell them, but would also be bold in such french as is peculiar to the laws of this realm, to leave it with them in writing to. But yet would I reckon myself sor● over seen, if all such things as I would in that school speak in a reading, I would in english into every man's hand put out abroad in print. For there is no such necessity therein as is in the t'other. For in the places of court these companies must needs be taught it/ out of which companies they must after be taken that shallbe made judges to judge it. But as for the common people to be told that tale, shall as far as I see do many folk little good, but rather very great harm. For by perceiving that in some things were no thing the peril that they ferede, some may wax therein more negligent/ and by less fearing the less dayngeour, may soon step into the more. And therefore have I wist ere this, the judges of a great wisdom in great open audience, where they have had occasion to speak of high mysseprisyon or of treason, forbear yet the saying of some such things, as they would not have letted to speak among themself.  
¶ If any man would happily think that it were well done that every man were taught all/ and wollde allege therefore that if he know surely what thing would make his behaviour high treason or heresy, than though he would adventure all that ever were under that, yet would he be peradventure the more ware to keep himself well from that/ as many a man though he believe that he shall abide great pain in purgatory for his venial sins, doth for all that no great diligence in forbearing of them, and yet for the fear of perpetual pain in hell, taketh very great heed to keep himself from those sins, that he surely knoweth for mortal.  
¶ As for such venial sins as folk of frailty so commonly do fall in, that no man is almost any time without them, though the profit would be more if men did ween they were mortal, so that the dread thereof could make men utterly forbear them: yet sith it will not be, that men will utterly forbear them/ the knowledge of the troth is necessary for them/ lest every time that they do such a venial sin in deed, weening that it were mortal, the doing of the deed with the conscience of a mortal sin, might make it mortal in deed.  
¶ But of any such kind of venial sins as be not so much in custom, and may be more easily forborn: I never found any wise man to my remembrance, that would either write or teach the common people so exactly, as to say though you do thus far, yet is it no deadly sin/ but will in such things sith the venial sin itself is a drawing toward the deadly, rather leave the people in doubt and in dread of deadly sin, and thereby cause them to keep themself far of from it/ than by telling them it is but a venial sin, make them the less afeard to do it/ and so come so much the ner●r to mortal sin, and assay how near he can come to it, and not do it, till he come at last so near the brink, that his foot slippeth and down he falleth in to it. For as the scripture saith, Quiamat periculum, peribit in illo. He that loveth peril shall perish in it.  
¶ Now as for heinous words speaking against the prince, or talking of heresy against the known catholic faith: these are no things like these comen venial sins/ but be things both twain, which they that do them, may much more easily forbear them. And therefore were it more profit unto the people, to think rather the more peril therein than the less.  
¶ The iudgis part is to see that the punishment pass not the gravity of the offence. And therefore shall the common people take none harm, though themself concerning treason or heresy, fall not by such books to the myncing of such matters, and dispute how far they may go forward in them, without the extreme danger and peril of them/ but shall the better keep themself from the greater, if for fere of greater, they keep themself well from the less.  
¶ But surely such tales told un the people, and given every man and woman at adventure in prented english books abroad, as may give them such boldness in talking, as this man here in this xiiii chapter doth, and to tell them that there is not therein so much peril, as many man would ween: may be much harm both unto themself and unto other to. To themself, for with a little less fear than they had before, they may soon fall ferther than they did before, or ever would have done. And than should he in whom it so should happen, find that it were (as holy saint Hierome saith) better to leave some things unknown, than with peril to learn them.  
¶ To other men also may a man do thereby much harm. For some man with bold talking heresies, whereby he maketh other men first to take them for light, and little and little after to believe them to (while they hear him so boldly speak them, & here him nothing reprove them) may do much more harm by making many other fall from the faith, though he were not fallen from it himself, than he should do if he held his tongue, though secretly in his heart he were a stark heretic in deed.  
¶ And therefore surely good reader, what so ever the man meant in his own secret mind, the fashion of his doctrine is yet in my mind plainly a thing to the people much more perilous than profitable/ and in his book of division very evil put in, and here evil repeated again.  
¶ Now where as he referreth the remanant of the matter concerning heresy, unto them that can better skill/ of whom he desyieth me to ask what were to be done, with such as speak heresies and are none heretics in their heart: surely if ever any such case should happen, as I should need to make search for that point, I would with good will so do. But I look for no such necessity. For it is enough for me, if I should hap to here any talk heresies, than to declare it unto their ordinaries, to whom the further charge appertaineth, to make thereupon ferther search such as he may/ and thereupon as he may ferther find thereof, so ferther do therein. And as for this man himself, as he canneth therein for any thing that I see very little skill, so would I that he had less medeled therewith, than to tell and teach the people first by his book of division, and afterward by this book again, that they may speak and talk heresies well enough, without the danger or peril to be for such speaking lawfully taken for heretics. With which tale though it were true, he doth them yet little good. For the using of such speaking of heresies, if it fully prove not a man an heretic, yet may it make him ye wot well of heresy in his heart very right sore suspect. For as our saviour saith himself, Ex habundantia cordis os loquitur. The mouth speaketh such things as in the heart be plenteous and aboundeth. And therefore I say, that though he neither defend it obstinately, nor can be precisely proved an heretic in his secret heart: yet may his open words be such (though they were spoken of I can not tell you what manner passion) that for the sore suspicion that his own words hath brought himself into, he may well and with good reason be compelled to abjure. And therein were there I wysse no great honesty nor no very great profit neither. And yet is it all the profit that I see can come of this good man's doctrine.  
¶ And this is the thing so that this good man boasteth in this chapter, the second side of his xliiii, lef, that I do not deny/ as though he had gotten thereby a great over hand on me in the matter. But yet would I good readers save for the length, let him perceive this oversight and ignorance, in another manner touching the thing that he so boasteth that I deny him not/ and would make him look a little better even upon Summa Rosella, whom he so much allegeth here himself.  
¶ And where as in the same lief and side, he maketh a certain certyfycate (as though I were a bishop, and had sent him a commission to inquire) that he knoweth not one heretic in all this realm in word nor deed: marry I would marvel much if he did. For it must needs be very long ere he can know any, while the man is so little suspycyouse in matters of heresy, that though he should here them talk heresy by him, yet because though he hear what their mouths speak, he can not yet perdyelo ●oke in unto their hearts there, and see what they think, nor knoweth not also, whither if they were asked where they were well a feared, they would hold it opynatyvely/ or elle● (rather than be burned or bear a faggot) say that they said it all but of a passion of ignorance or frailty: he can not therefore lightly know any one heretic (as he sayeth he doth not) neither in word nor deed in all this whole realm.  
¶ And then for hearing by report, therein goth he farther and sayeth.  
For how be it that I have herd sometime reported, that there be many heretics/ yet I never hard so far proof therein, that I might with conscience ●uge or report/ that this man or that man is an heretic. And to every light word a man may not give full credence in that behalf/ ne report it lightly/ that any man is an heretic by such light tales. And surely this point is much to be noted of all men/ but most spycyally of them that daily myny●tre the sacraments of the church, left happily through such reports they minister them sometime in deadly sin, and yet would not think so themself.  
¶ It would have done very well, that this good man had given as light a credence, to such reports in miss handling of heretics as some have made him of the spirituality (if himself therein say true) as he seemeth to have given to them that have reported unto him that there are many heretics. For than, sith after his own preaching here, a man ought to be so well beware how he lightly report again, any evil light reports that he hath herd to the slander of any one man: himself would not of likelihood so lightly have made such evil report in that point, to the slander and obloquy of the prelate's of the spirituality, thereby to bring them in grudge of the whole temporalty, upon such light reports made unto him, by some light simple persons/ where as by the kings honourable counsel the truth hath been so plainly proved to be contrary.  
¶ But yet where as he confesseth that he hath herd it sometime reported, that there be many heretics: I would fain wit of him, whether that such report have been made unto him by any of the temporalty. If he say nay, but that all that so told him were spiritual men: than may they believe him that think his answer likely. For I would ween in my mind, that between him and spyrytnall persons, were not so much familiar company, as to come to tell him that tale. For he seemeth not very meetly for spiritual men in that matter to make their moan unto. And than if he hard it either of temporal men beside, or of temporal men only and no spiritual men at all: than did he not very well when he wrote in his division, that spiritual men make that noise for a policy. And yet also would I farther wy●● whether he have heard any speak heresies in any place where himself was present in company. If he answer me nay: than will I press no farther upon him, but let every man as I said before believe it that thinketh it likely. But on the other side, if he answer me ye: than would I fain farther wit, whither ever himself went so far with them, as to prove whether he should by his own rule in this chapter, have cause to show their ordinary of them, that he might send for them/ or else that hearing folk so speak heresies by him, he took all to the best alway of his own special goodness/ and lest he might with questyoning hap to find it worse, followed ever in that matter, the good counsel that saint Poule gave in another matter, nolite interrogare, propter conscientiam, ask no question, lest you bring a scruple into your conscience. If he used any diligence in questyoning: than were it well likely that he found in all this long while, some where at the lest wise some one.  
¶ But now if he heard them speak heresy, & found no fault therewith, nor no question asked: then is it as I said little marvel, though he never no where in all England found one. And that is even one of the very things, while many folk now fall to the same fashion, to hear heresies talked and let the talkers alone, which yet will (if they be brought into the court before the judge) tell than the troth, and will not be so false as to be forsworn: this is I say one of the very special things, for which in crime of heresy the suit ex officio (which in the next chapter following he laboureth ●ore to destroy) may what so ever this man say, in no wise be forborn, but if we would have the ●iretes swarm full of heretics, why the very likely were to follow, though he say nay xl times.  
And that have I against his book of division well declared in mine apology. And he hath again here in this book defended, in that point his book of division, as yourself shall anon see god wot with much work full feebly.    

The second part.  

The xu chapter.  
HIs xu chapter concerning the suit ex officio, beginneth in the xlviii. leaf of his book, & holdeth on into the liiii  
¶ And for as much good christian readers at it may well appear, that this point is the special thing that he fain would bring about, that is to wit to sow an opinion in men's heads, that it were good to change and put away that suit, toward which purpose all his book of division bendeth/ labouring first with his so many some says, to bring the spiritual judges in suspicion and obloquy, and make the people ween that they marvelously did with much wrong & cruelty miss handle men for heresy: therefore I shall in this point here confute his arguments so plain & in such wise, that who so list indifferently to read both the parts, shall find here causes good and sufficient why, by his unreasonable reasons never after to set a fly  
¶ And first because ye shall well see that I will not wrestle in the dark, but bring the matter into light open and plain at your eyen/ I will in this matter leave you not out one word of this his xu chapter, but bring forth his words with mine. And than while you read the tone first, & the other even after hand: there shall neither he nor I/ by any sly sleight deceive you.  
¶ But two things for this matter will I require you first/ one that you reject one wily sleight of his, with which he goth about even from the beginning to corrupt our judgement that are temporal men, and in the reading to blind us with affection  
¶ For in all this matter he maketh as there were two parts. The tone he maketh the spirituality. And this cause he so maketh theirs, as though the commodity of that suit to be kept, were a thing that pertained only unto them. The other party he maketh us of the temporalty, whom he would have put the same suit away. For though that in the perleament be spiritual men also: yet all were they all upon one side sure, he seeth well they were to few  
¶ But it is necessary that we consider in this point, that though the judges be spiritual, yet if that suit be necessary for preservation of the catholic faith, than is the profit not the spiritual men's only, but that profit and advantage is our own to. And if by the change of that suit ex officio, the decay of the catholic faith shall follow in this realm: than is not the loss and damage unto the spirituality alone, but the harm is importable unto the whole realm.  
¶ Therefore have this point in this matter ever before your eyen, that the change of that law if that law be good, but if he change it in to a better, or at the lest as good, is a comen harm to the whole realm. And that harm happeneth in the greatest thing that we could possible take harm in, if we be (as I wot well we be & ever intend to be) faithful true christian people.  
¶ Look therefore good readers both to his reasons and mine, and if you find by his reasons that the putting away of that law, be better for the keeping of the catholic faith in this land, ye or better other wise for this land without the minisshement of the faith in the same, than am I well content that ye count this good man both for very wise and for very faithful to.  
But now if you find by mine answer on the other side, that all his reasons in this point are not worth one rysshe toward the proof of any necessary cause of change/ but his reason and his argumentis always such therein, that either they be builded upon a fa●se ground/ or else if he make any that happen to be true, if ye find it yet but such as by the self same reason if men would unwisely follow it, there might no law neither long last, nor yet no law be made: if you find I say his reasons against this law but such, ye will than I doubt not think it but good reason, for all his rial reasoning to let the law stand.  
¶ But than if ye find ●erther yet, as I wot well ye shall, that the change that he would make, under a needles pretence of preserving innocentes out of dayngeour and apparel, and can not prove that this hundred year any one was wronged with it, should cause heretics to be bold, take courage, & increase, and for lack of this law the catholic faith to decay: than will you not I wot well let to tell this man, that he lacketh in this matter, how gay so ever he make it, either wit, or (which worse were) love to the christian faith.  
¶ The other thing that I require, you shall yourself see reasonable. For it serveth to the clear perceiving of us both, how both he and I bear ourself in this matter. And I shall not require therein parcyally for my part, but a request indifferent and equal for us both, sith ye shall the clearer thereby perceive where about we both go, and where any of us both serve a side fro the matter, and to hide the troth out of sight, slynke into lurkies lane.  
¶ My request is no more, but that it may like you to take the labour and pain for perceiving of the trowth, from the beginning to peruse the whole matter, as far as pertaineth to the change of this law.  
¶ Read first his own words in his own book of division. And after read mine answer in mine apology, which you shall find in the fourtyth chapter, the .218. leaf, and his words to therewith. And when those two things be both fresh in your mind, read than this his fyftenthe chapter of this book, with mine answers every where added thereunto/ and than have I when this is done little doubt of your judgement, ye shall see the matter prove against this good man plain.  
¶ In his xu chapter good readers he would make men ween, that he sufficiently proveth three things. The tone is that it were none hurt to change now this old law. The second thing is that it were great hurt to keep it. The third, that such samples of the laws of this realm as I resembled unto the suit ex officio, I resemble against reason, they be so far unlike.  
¶ Into these three points therefore will I divide this chapter that the reader may the better see in what part he is.  
¶ I shall rehearse you first hear his whole words together, that he bringeth for the first point. Lo good readers these they be.  
THen to the conventing of men before spiritual judges ex officio, and whereupon master More saith in his apology, foe, 219. that if it were left, the streets were likely to swarm full of heretics: Heryly I m●ruayle right moche at his saying therein: and that for this cause: It is certain, that no man may after the law be detected of heresy, but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before why he ought so to be. For if it be secret in his own breast, none can be his judge but god only, that is the searcher of man● heart. And if any will ●d●owe, that he knoweth the ca●se, and will denounce him as an heretic therefore: than it is reason, that he be taken as his accuser. And if he will not advow to be his accuser, if y● to think that he doth it of some malice or craft rather than for the troth of the matter. And if he say he da●e not for fere of hi● life avow it, I have showed a mean in the vii chapter of the said treatise how the witness may be saved from danger, as by showing the matter to the king and his counsel, and that then it is not to suppose nor so to think, but that they will pronyde sufficiently for the indempnyte of the witness in that behalf. And this remedy master More denieth not to be convenient for this realm. And yet he will not assent, that a law be made that it shall be so. And then if the witness will not avow it, but an other will give credence to him and avow it: than it seemeth reasonable, that they that will give credence thereto, a will report it/ be taken as accusers: taking those witness for their warrant, if it be denied.  
¶ In these words lo good readers you see, how he proveth his first point, that of the change of this law by putting away this suyt ex officio, wherein without any special accuser, offering himself as party, the suspect may be called in before the judge ex officio, that is to wit by reason of his office: there could none harm grow at all.  
¶ And how doth he now prove us this point? He proveth it as you see first by certain reason put & presupposed for a ground/ & then after that by a certain order that him ●elfe shortly divyseth and setted up upon the same.  
Hy● ground and his foundation is this, it is certain he saith that no man may after the law be detected of heresy/ but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before/ why he ought so to be.  
¶ Very troth it is that no man can be detected, except a man detect himself, but if some other see some thing in him wherefore he should seem nought, some one thing or other that they which perceive it suspect him therefore themself. And therefore as for this ground this good man and I will not greatly strive ¶ Then followeth his order that he deviseth & byesdeth up thereupon thus.  
And if any will advow that he knoweth the cause, and will denounce him an heretic therefore: then is it reason that he be taken as his accuser.  
¶ This is a right good reason/ and the spiritual law will not refuse so to take him & accept him for an accuser if he will/ and than will they not in that case use the suit ex officio. For in that case it needeth not. But now what if he that knoweth it, & secretly detecteth it, peradventure four or five and sometime more to, & yet not one of them all, will openly be called an accuser, but willbe content to be taken and known for a witness, called in by the court & sworen, and to tell the troth as of an necessity, & not as accusers of their neighbour of their own offer willingly: what shall the ordinary do then? ¶ Against this parel this good man giveth us this remedy.  
If they will not be his accusers, it is to think that they do it of some malice or craft, rather than for the troth of the matter.  
¶ I ween good readers that there is no man but when he heareth this answer, he would ween there were yet for the farther remedy some other more matter behind. For what mad man would think that this were a sufficient remedy, so fully provided For this matter, that if there were any heretics they could not fail so fully to be detected by this way of accusation, that there should need no suit ex officio, because they that know it may either hold their peace if they list, or else if they will algates detect any man, may be taken and accepted for accusers/ and if they will not openly be taken so, then be taken for malicious and crafty, and therefore believe them not, but bid them like false harlots hence and go get them home.  
¶ But how shall we do yet for one thing? For though that their refusing to become open accusers, were a conjecture to lead us somewhat to believe them false or malicious: yet were it not so great a conjecture on that side, nor so sure, but that we might be therein deceived and they both chartable and true, and the man that they detected a very perilous heretic in ve●y deed. And then for ought that this man deviseth yet, we should need the suit ex officio to buste out this matter better/ or else that man that they detected shall (if he be such as they said he was) teach heresies still, and do much harm a great while.  
¶ Also good readers this good man hath no such cause so sore to miss trust such a denouncer, only because that he refuseth to be taken of his own offer for a party and an open accuser, considering that he refuseth not to be brought in by process, and depose in the parties own presence as a witness, and will be content that his depositions himself standing by be published, & red openly before the world. And therefore any wise man would ween, that this good man to prove that we should not need the suit ex officio, if he would make his suit by way of accusation, sufficient to serve in the stead, he had need to have devised some ●arther thing then this. But this good host of ours, prayeth you for this feast to be marry with such as you have, for here is all your far/ saving that to make us like this meat the better, & fill our belies somewhat the better there with, he giveth us thereto one little mess of sauce to it, in showing us a cause, wherefore it is good reason, that we should give them no credence that detect a man of heresy, and yet will refuse to become his open accusers. And the cause that he giveth us is this.  
F●r of he say (saith this good man) that he dare not for ●ere of his life avow it, I have showed a mean in the seventh chapter of the said treatise/ how the witness may be saved from danger, as by showing the matter to the king and his counsel/ and that the● it is not to suppose nor to think, but that they will provide sufficiently for the indempnyte of the witnesses in that behalf.  
¶ Now good readers heard any man ever any reason made for sufficient, by any man that any reason had in his head/ and handled so insuffycyently. Be this wise reason he maketh as though no man detecting any man of heresy, except he surmised the matter of falsehood & malice, would refuse to be his open accuser for any thing save for only fere/ nor for no less fere neither then only the fere of death. And then for that fere, he hath as he saith devised sufficient remedy.  
¶ Now that none other thing can set a man to make himself a party and an open accuser, but only fere● I ween there will no man grant him/ and that no less fere then only fere of death, and add fere of all bodily harm thereto, that will I ween every wise man less graunt● him.  
¶ But now let us consider whether the fere that himself granteth to be sufficient, to let a detectour from taking upon him to be an accuser, be so sufficiently provided for by this good man, that it must needs be, that by his provision that fere shall be quite gone. For if that it may be, that all his provision not withstanding, the man's fere may still remain in his heart/ then may it also be pardie, that be his detection never so true, yet he may for that fere, refuse to make himself a party and become an open accuser.  
¶ Consider now therefore what is the remedy that he hath devised in his seventh chapter. He rehearseth it here again, that upon complaint made to the king and his counsel it is not to suppose nor think, but that they would provide sufficiently for thindemnyte of the witness in that behalf.  
¶ I am content to grant him for the while, that they will sufficiently provide for thindemnity of the witnesses. But first all this provision is in our case here very needles. And his provision in the seventh chapter of his division, is brought in for another manner of matter/ that is to wit against a provision made in the spyrytull law, by which it is there devised, that in some case for dread of peril that may fall to the witnesses, the ordinary shall not suffer the party that is detected, to know who hath witnessed against him. And now would this good man bygyle his readers in this chapter, & make them ween that that special provision in that one special case, which provision I ween was yet in England never put in ure, were a comen order in every man's case. But consider good reader that our case is now, that the man refuseth not to be a witness/ but is content both to be sworen when he is as a witness called in, and to avow then his deposition true, before the judge in the parties own presence/ and if he may so be used as a witness, will neither be afraid nor a shamed, nor desire to put the kings counsel to any business about the provision of his indempnyte at all. And therefore in our case this good man's provision devised for witnesses, shall not need for our witnesses, if he let the suit ex officio proceed, and receive them as only witnesses.  
¶ But on the other side, if this good man put a way that suyt, and will receive no man first for a denouncer secretly, and after that for a witness to, that will refuse at the beginning to make himself a party and become an open accuser/ but though they were such twenty will take them all for false shrews and put them to silence, except some one of them will take upon him the name and person of an accuser: I say that his provision doth not suffice, not even in his own case of fere, to make every true man content to accuse an heretic/ but that we must either let that heretic alone and let him go make more, or else must we use the suit ex officio still.  
¶ That is not so sayeth this good man. For if he become an accuser I have devised a remedy for his indempnyte. That is well & properly said. But we speak not of his loss but of his fere. Why what should he need to fere when he can take no loss? hath this good man never herd in his life that some man hath been worse afeard than hurt? a man may fere pardie though he fear causeless. And if he so do still them will he not become thaccuser, & anger him whom he feareth, though the man be bound, and right good sureties with him, that he shall do his accuser no bodily harm at all.  
¶ His fere is also for all the provision that can be made by sufficient surety, not all causeless yet. For he may well and with good reason fere, that he that is bounden may by some secret shrews of his acquayntauns murder him/ and that in such wise as when he doth it, he may ween & have hope that it shall never be known for his deed, nor he thereby lose forfeiture of his bound.  
¶ There can no man (ye wot well) also kill another, but with the parel of his own life. And yet is there daily many a man, that standeth for all that in dread, that another man will for evil will and malice destroy him. And the comen laws of this realm so far forth allow and approve his dread, for all that his enemy is upon loss of his own life bound to the contrary, that upon his own oath, they compel the party to be bounden with other sureties for him in certain sums of money, that he shall not. And yet the man that feared before, may peradventure be fullferd still, that his enemy will as well adventure the forfeiture of his friends money, as he before feared that he would adventure his own life. But yet because it may be that his resspecte unto friendship, will temper his respect of malice, and make him loath, for hurting of one whom he hateth, to hurt twain whom he loveth: the man is content sith he can go no farther, to take that may be gotten, and so to sew for such surety, to live thereby, though not in full surety, nor clean out of fere, yet in surety somewhat the more, and in fere somewhat the less.  
¶ But now this man that doth detect this heretic, against whom he feareth to make himself an open adversary & accuser, is not in the case before he become his accuser, but may sit still you see well and hold his peace, and needeth not to make that heretic his adversary by his wilful accusation/ which if he should once do, he will never after happily while he liveth, reckon himself so sure from bodily harm that he may after hap to have by him and by his means, as he will reckon to be in if he accuse him not/ nor by such open accusation give him an open occasion of displeasure/ no not for all the provision that all the world can imagine for his surety/ except only such surety as a poor man devised once for himself, when he came to a king & complained howesore he feared that such a servant of his would kill him. And the king bode him fear not fellow, for I promise the if he kyllthe he shallbe hanged within a little while after. Nay my lyege lord ꝙ the poor soul I beseech your grace let him be hanged for it a great while afore. For I shall never live in the less fere till I see him hanged first. ¶ Now will this good man happily say, that this manner of reasoning should prove not only that a man for fere would refuse to be an accuser, but also to be a witness/ & then were it against myself to.  
¶ That is not so in every case. For commonly no man is in such wise angry with them that are in a matter witnesses against him, & may seem to witness against their willies, for the necessity of their oaths whereto they may be or may seem to be compelled, as with him whom he seeth willingly no man calling him, come forth of his own offer to accuse him. And therefore the cases be very far unlike. But yet in some cases when the party that is detected is known for mighty, and for so malicious therewith, that he will of likelihood hate & mischief any man by whom he taketh any harm, though the other man do it never so much against his will: in such cases the fere may be such in deed, that it may peradventure cause some that else would tell the truth if he should never know them, for dread of his displeasure to be forsworn, rather than abide th'adventure, what so ever provision any man should devise for their surety.  
¶ And for such case if it happened was the law made, which in his seventh chapter this man so sore complaineth of, that the party detected should in such case be kept fro the knowledge of the witnesses/ & as (with the provisions that are in that law made farther) very good reason is that he should/ and therefore is even here that point of his seventh chapter of his division, and all that ever he can farther devise for the farther defence thereof, full answered here by the way.  
¶ But now sayeth this good man thereto, that I deny not in mine apology, that remedy of his device to be convenient for this realm/ & yet I will not he saith assent that a law be made that it shallbe so.  
¶ In this tale this good honest man saith untrue. The words in mine apology whereupon he taketh hold to say, that I deny not his devise to be convenient for this realm be these.  
¶ His devise though peradventure it would serve in some one land, would yet not serve in some other. And they that made that law of the church, made it as it might serve most generally thorough christendom/ where as this devise though it might serve in England, might not have served in many places of Almaigne that are perverted synnies/ not even while that matter was in a mamering before the change was made. But surely that same law and other of old made against heresies, if they had been in Almaigne duly followed in the beginning, the matter had not there gone out at length to such an ungracious ending.  
¶ These be lo the words of mine apology the xlii chapter folio. 232, whereof this man taketh hold to say, that I deny not in mine apology, that his device is convenient for this realm. For in these words in deed I do not deny it/ but than you see well I do not grant it neither.  
¶ But afterward in the self same chapter, the very next lief after against the sufficiency of his device writ I these words following.  
¶ And on the other side, the remedy that he deviseth for the surety of the witnesses, should not peradventure make the men so bold, as in a cause of heresy to meddle in the matter against some manner of man●but that they rather would for their own surety, keep their own tongues still, than with all the surety that could be founden them bysyde, have their persons disclosed unto the party.  
¶ Lo good readers the thing that he saith I deny not, because that in the first words I neither said ye nor nay (for I said not that it might serve in england/ but that though it might serve in England, yet might it not serve in Almaigne/ which words I might have said, though I had in the next line before, expressly said that it might not serve in England) the thing do I (as you see) forthwith in the next lief well & plainly deny. And yet you see that he saith here again in this book, that I deny it not. This good man seemeth not very shame fast lo, but if his logic lead him to think that this were a good argument. In these words he denieth it not: ergo he denieth it not. which argument is even as good as this. He denieth it not in one place, ergo he denieth it not in no place.  
¶ Now where he saith that though I deny not his device to be convenient, yet I will not assent that a law be made that it shall be so: surely as much of his device as I think convenient for the realm, so much thereof will I not be against that a law be made that it shallbe so. For where this good man thinketh it convenient for this realm, that he which is detected or accused of heresy, should be bounden & find sureties, that he shall not hurt neither accuser nor witness: I will not be against it that a law be made that it shallbe so But yet though that law were made (sith for all that law there would remain a fear behind in the men's hearts, for whose self guard such surtyes should be founden, and peril and dayngeour to, sufficient to make them draw back from making themself in heresy open accusers, and in some case from bearing witness also, but if they thought their names should from the person against whom they should witness, be surely kept close and unknown) I would not assent for my part to put away the said law that he speaketh of in his seventh chapter of his division, for chances that might hereafter hap. And much less would I grant to put away the suit against heretics ex officio, into his device of only open accusers, for the harm that would undoubtedly daily grow, by the increase of heretics & hindrance of the catholic faith/ no more than though I blame not the law, by which he that is afeard of killing shall have his adversary bound to the peace, I would yet when the t'other is so bounden by recognisance, have that law stand in stead of the t'other, by which he shall if he kill that man, fall thereby ferther into the danger of hanging.  
¶ And yet this his gay glorious device, that he devised in his former book, and here now repeateth again: no man needeth to give him any great thank for. For who knew not that all way, that who so ever be afeard, may desire & have surety for the peace, if he fear himself of his life or bodily harm, & may ask it of course upon his oath as soon as he is afeard (and sooner pardie this man deviseth it not) of the kings ordinary justices, without any other further suit, to trouble the kings grace or his counsel withal.  
¶ But yet will all this surety f●ndyng as you see, never so take away the fear of harm from men's hearts, but that they will rather forbear to be accusers, than by the becoming of an open accuser run in the deadly malice of that man, by whom for all his bond & all his sureties founden, they fear still always that they shall take hurt.  
¶ But here will happily this good man tell me now, that I am a man importune, & one whom no reason can satisfy/ & bid me therefore go devise some further thing mine own self ●or●e●pe of the matter, and assay also what further thing any other folk can f●nd therein. And if neither mine own wit nor no man's else can find no ferther remedy, wherefore should I than blame him when he deviseth as full ● remedy as any man's reason can find. Forsooth I can with any wit that I have, nor I ween no more can no man else/ find no ferther remedy than he findeth here himself. But yet sith the ferthest that he can find is very far unsufficient, with change of the suit ex officio to keep heresies from great increase, and preserve the catholic faith: I can therefore find at hand a much nearer remedy than this that he fetcheth so far that is to wit to let his new devicꝭ pass and let the old law stand still  
¶ And thus you see good readers that this piece wherein he so boasteth the provision that he hath devised so sufficient to deliver the accusers frofere, leaveth them so in dread & fere still, that though there were no let but the fere of bodily harm: yet of many true men that will detect and bear witness, ye should find but very few that would become accusers.  
¶ But now though there were founden provision good and sure, to drive out of thaccusers'accusers heart all fere of bodily hurt: yet are there many that dare secrely detect, and by whom the ordinary shall know who can tell more, and will also if they be called and sworn, and will not uncalled and unsworen, tell no tale at all/ and they themself also will neither accuse nor yet bear witness neither, nor so much as have it known that ever they spoke word therein. And that not for any fere of their life, for which this good man findeth as he saith a remedy/ but for loss of their living, for which he findeth none, nor never once thought thereon. And yet is the living to some folk, as life almost as the life. And their living they fear utterly to lose (that they get peradventure by them whom yet of charity for their amendment they detect) if they were once perceived any thing to meddle in the matter.  
¶ And yet as I said before every wise man well woteth there are many other affections bysyde all such fear, that let men to become accusers in heresy, and yet letteth them not to do otherwise truly and charitably their duty, both in secret detecting of them, and also in open bearing witness against them, when they be called forth and commanded by the court to depose, that will never as I said of their own offer make themself a party, and openly become their accuser.  
¶ Now what if there were but two wy●nesse of the matter, such as were well able plainly to prove the thing, if neither of both may be herd but if the tone should become thaccuser: when the tone were made party, than were the proof lost. But we shall not need much I warrant you to care for this case. For of them both, you shall have neither nother that will.  
¶ How be it yet hath this good man at last founden a good way for that. For lo sir thus he saith.  
And than if the witness will not avow it, but an other will give credence to him and auo● it: than it seemeth reasonable that they that will give credence thereto and will report it, be taken a● accusers/ taking those witnesses for their warrant if they be denied.  
¶ If he think it likely that none of them will become accusers that were present and heard it themself: than is it yet less likely that he will become the accuser, that heareth it but at a second hand.  
And therefore me thinketh that this device is not much wiser, than the device that a good fellow devised once for his neighbour, that had a great hylloke in his close/ which for planing of the ground he counseled him to have it away. Marry ꝙ his neighbour I must carry it than so far, that it were less loss to me to give away the close & all. Marry neighbour ꝙ the t'other, I shall soon find a way for that. For I shall devise a pronision that it shallbe had away & yet never carried hence. For even there as it lieth lo, dig me a great pit, & carry it never further, but bury it even in that. Where shall I than lay that heap ꝙ his neighbour that cometh out of the pit? At that the t'other studied a little. But when he had well bythought him: marry ꝙ he even dig another great pit under that, and berry me that heap there.  
¶ So this man will in any wise lo, have away this hillock, this suit ex officio, that he sayeth doth here much hurt. how shall we have it away say we without yet much more hurt? Good remedy saith this good man shortly shall I devise. Put accusers in the stead of that suit, and they shall do much better. who shall be thaccusers say we? Mary saith he they that here them. They will not say we become accusers in no manner case. No will they sayeth he, then be they but false shrews. what remedy then say we to supply the said suit. A ready way sayeth he, take some other that heareth the other that herd the heretic speak.  
He will much less become accuser say we, than they that herd it themself. what hath this good man farther to say then, bid us take then another that will. And ever we follow still & say we shall never find him/ and that word he denieth not, but alway biddeth us go get one. And now if the second man were content, or the fifteenth after: yet hath this man marred all this matter with one thing. For you wot well that if the witness that saith he was present and herd it his own ears will refuse to become thaccuser himself: this good man will that the ordinary shall take him for malicious or false. Now than if we get with long labour some other man to accuse: yet him that heard it and would not be thaccuser himself, sith the bishop must take him alway for malicious or false in the matter, he may never accept him therein for a witness. For if we take him for fraudulent & malicious to the party/ this man's credence is ten times less in all reason, than his is that afterward deposeth to his harm, where he was first forsworn, while he would fain have done him good/ and that man would not this good man believe after in no wise.  
¶ And thus both for the tone cause and the t'other, for lack of an accuser and credence of the witness, you see plainly good readers that by this man's device, if we dig up and berry this hylloke ex officio, we shall when we have all done say he what he list, make & leave that never will then be voided, as great an hyllok● of heretics in the stead.  
¶ And this you see good readers that this good man showeth us yet no le● but that for any thing that he saith here, if the suit of officio were changed as he would have it, and in stead thereof trust all unto accusers, of which for any thing that he deviseth we were likely to find few, & as I fear me verily rather none at all: it were well likely to come to pass as I said, that the streets should swarm full of heretics, ere ever they were convented and repressed by his way. Of which saying of mine as much marvel as he saith he hath: yet showeth he nothing (as you see) wherefore he should marvel of it/ nor to the things that I prove it with/ he no more answereth, than though he never herd them.  
¶ Which dealing of his you may clearly perceive, even by the very same lief, wherein I wrote those words of which he marveleth so much and hath so little cause. For there lo my words be these.  
For surely if the conventing of heretics ex officio were left & changed into another order, by which no man should be called, be he never so sore suspected, nor by never so many men detected, but if some man make himself party against him as his accuser: the streets were likely to swarm full of heretics, before that right few were accused, or peradventure any one either.  
These were lo my words in mine apology against which you have herd what he saith. Than because he should not need to marvel at the matter, I show by & by what maketh me so to say. For there it followeth thus.  
¶ For what so ever the cause be, it is not unknown I am sure, that many will give to a judge secret information, of such things as though they be true, yet gladly he will not or peradventure dare not, be openly known that the matter came out by him.  
¶ Consider here good readers that as to become open accusers, I speak here of two lets. One that men will not, another that some men dare not. And yet that they dare not/ I put as the more rare & more seldom. Now cometh this good answerer, and for the more seldom, that is to wit where they dare not, he deviseth a remedy, which seldom yet or never, sufficiently shall serve the matter. And the other cause that I call most commune as in very deed it is: that cause he neither denieth nor any one word speaketh of it, but softly slynketh beside it, as though he had never red it. what manner of answering good readers call you this?  
¶ More over lest he might deny me that I said true therein: I laid there for the proof the plain comen experience, which this good man himself I am very sure (but if he be a recluse and have been all his life) knoweth well to be true/ and in deed he saith not nay.  
¶ Then go I there farther yet, and I declare what profit there cometh to the comen weal, to give such folk hearing/ such folk I say as this good man would have rejected back, and taken for false or malicious, because they come secretly and will not themself openly become accusers. Therein lo these are my words.  
●And yet shall he sometime give the names of diverse other/ which being called by the judge, and examined as witnesses against their wills, both know and will also depose the truth, and he that first gave information also/ and yet will never one of them willingly make himself an open accuser of the party, nor dare peradventure for his ears.  
¶ This thing good readers every man every where findeth true that any order of justice in his hand. And in these words you see well I told him there once again, not only that some dare not, but that though men dare they will not (except the thing do privately touch themself) for the causes of the comen weal become open accusers. And as I again there told it him: so he here again forgeth it.  
¶ Then go I yet forth a little farther, and these are there my words.  
And this find we not only in heresy, but in many temporal matters among ourself/ whereof I have had experience many a time and oft, both in the disclosing of felonies, and sometime of much other oppression used by some one man or twain in a shire, whereby all their neighbours sore smarted/ and yet not one durst openly complain.  
¶ Lo thus I there declared good readers by comen eyperyence, that if men should do as this man here deviseth, reject every man for malicious & crafty that will give secret information, but if he be content to become an accuser openly: there should much harm grow thereof/ not in heresies only, but beside that in much other mischief to. To all this gear you see good readers that this good man playeth as though he came in in a mummery, for any one word he saith/ which should not so have scaped him ye may be very sure, but that he saw full surely that he could never answer them. For though he would have denied all that I speak of mine own experience, yet in the like things so many men of worship daily do prove the thing true that I tell it for, that he could nothing win in his cause by all that denying. And yet did I not mine own self my business in such wise, but that I can if need require prove it plain enough. But of this gear as I said he denieth nothing, nor answereth nothing neither thereunto. And sure may you be that if he had could, he would not have failed to have done the tone.  
¶ And therefore good readers my words stand still so sure, that this good man hath not yet nor never shall while he liveth, be able to void them with all the craft he can, but that if men would be so far overseen as in this matter to follow his device, to put away this old law the suit ex officio, and trust that all would be well helped by mean of open accusers: it would at length come to pass the thing that I have said, that the streets were well likely to swarm full of heretics, ere ever that right few should be thereof accused, or peradventure any one heretic either.  
¶ And now good christian readers sith you see so clearly, that by such changing of that law, the catholic faith should decay: I care not now greatly what he say for his second part, sith he hath so fowl an over throw in the first, upon which first part all the matter hangeth. For though he could in his second part make you now good proof, not only that there might, but also that there did & hath done, great harm grow by that suit, which he shall never prove you while he liveth/ but at sundry times & that of late where it hath been so surmised, it hath always be proved the contrary; yet sith you see well that by this change that he deviseth, while we would help these harms that he speaketh of, that is to wit that no man should be convented of heresy causeless. we should by the providing for that harm, be the cause of far more hurt and harm in the stead/ that is to wit, that when that suit were so changed, the catholic faith should decay, and heretics so should increase, that by such insurrections as they have here before made, not in other countries only, but in this realm of England have also attempted the same, put it upon the apparel & assey to rob spoil and kill also much innocent people openly, and turn folk from the faith by force, and work other manner of masteries many more, such a● mine heart abhorret so much as to rehearse or name. Sith every man may see I say, that such harm were in parel to fall by this change of his● there will I ween no wise man follow his fond devise in putting this law away, all though he proved well in his second part, that there were harm in the keeping/ while he can not defend the cō●rorye, but that there were incomparably much more harm in the levynge.  
¶ But by what way he proveth that there is great hurt in the keeping, that shall we now consider. After which well examined/ I shall again return good readers eft soon unto the first, that this suyt ex officio taken once away, the streets w●re likely to swarm full of heretics. And as clear as you see that ponte all ready, and that this man hath therein neither answered nor ones touched such things as yourself see that I said therein before: yet shall I make it you anon, with the farther folly of his devise double (ere we depart) so clear.  
¶ Concerning the second part, thus lo this man beginneth.  
But ●o put the party that 〈◊〉 complained on, 〈◊〉 answer, and to condemn him, if he say contrary to that the witness have said, not knowing who ●e the witness, ne who be his accuser: it seemeth not reasonable to be accepted for a law. For as I have said in the said treatise, if he that is accused knew their names that accused him, he might percase allege and prove so great and so vehement cause of rancour and malice in them that accuse him, or bear witness against him, that their sayenge● by no law ought to stand against him: as if there were two men that had sworn the death of an other● and because they can not bring it about, they imagine how they may bring him to all the shame and vexation that they can, and thereupon they apeche him of heresy: if he in this case knew● their names, he might prove their rancour and malice. And because he knoweth them not, he can not prove it. And also the witness may be such, as sha● have his lands by escheat after his death.  
And if it be said, that these cases fall so seldome● that it ought little to be pondered: so may it be said like wise, that it falleth but seldom, that the wytness●● in heresy stand in any fear of them, that they accuse. And then to make a general law to prohibit all men, that they should not have knowledge of the witness in no case, it is not reasonable.  
¶ Now good readers one thing opened unto you which is troth, which this man of wiliness hideth from you, and would make you ween the troth were contrary: divide after that known all this mischief & unreasonabylnes that he telleth us here into twenty parts/ & with the bare knowledge of the one troth, nineteen and a half of all his false feigned mychyefes' are gone.  
¶ The troth is good christian readers, that except only one case, where of he speaketh in his seventh chapter of his division, where to let the party know the witnesses were apparel, to which I have answered him both in mine apology first, and synnies even in this same chapter before: else in all other cases, the witnesses, whose depositions shallbe taken & laid against him to prove him an heretic, and upon which deposition sentence of condemning him for an heretic shall be given against him, he shall see them and shall here their depositions to. So that if there be any such great causes, as this good man here imagineth that might happen, of enimyte, or hope of lucre, or any much less either, the judge both may and will consider them before the sentence.  
¶ But why shall he not know them forth with, when he is fyrs●e convented? For it were not well done he should, no more than the kings counsel that many times call malefactors before them upon secret information first, use always there by & by to disclose who told them the matter and what/ which if they should and by and by bring him forth, then though the suspect would confess happily some thing thereby the sooner: yet should it be but that thing which he thought the t'other knew. where as while the thief knoweth not who hath given the information, and yet thinketh by his examination that among his many fellows though they be thiefs all, yet some false shrews there be, he miss guesseth among and weeneth it were one where in deed it was another/ & so in stead of one felony, to light there cometh twain.  
¶ But at another time & in an other place, before he shall have any judgement thereupon, he shall commonly see them sworen and hear them speak to.  
¶ And here I ●●y commonly, because that sometime percase in point of judgement he shall not have them brought forth and sworen in his presence, nor peradventure never hear them speak in the matter. For they may happen to be some, that deposed and died to before himself were taken/ and some happily that were his fellows confessed his felonies at the gallows, when they were on the lather. And some peradventure became approvers when they were cast, and called for a coroner/ and the law keeping no store of him but hanging him up forthwith, useth yet his information & all these other to, which may happen to come so many together & so likely to be true, that his life may go therefore, and he well worthy to, and yet neither himself nor thinquest never here any one witness sworen, neither the first nor the second, neither at thenditing nor at his arreyghning neither.  
¶ Now may it so fortune in like wise and sometime so doth it to, that folk some good and honest depose in cause of heresy against some one man that is detected thereof. And happily there depose also some other of his own affinity/ and in deposing against that one man detect by their depositions, a neither man of the self same company that is then walked far of, no man can tell where, the appeareth plainly upon all their oaths peradventure the very chief heretic of all. If he hap long after when these witnesses be deed, to come again in to the country and teach heresies a fresh, and one or twain detect him/ they shall now be sworen and shall be brought forth face to face before him, that he shall object against them what he can before his judgement pass. But yet those old depositions shall not serve for nought, but are admonicula probationis, though the men be deed. And against all reason were it that it were otherwise. How be it what they said he shall here/ and also who they were.  
¶ Lo this is good christian readers the manner of that suit, whereof this good man would here make us ween the contrary, and that men were commonly condemned of heresy by depositions of those men whom he should never know. And therefore sith the troth is in deed, that all the wrong which he speaketh of, he groundeth upon a plain untruth, though he make not this lie wittingly himself, but hearing some folk say so, weeneth that it were true: yet is as I said before all his reason spylt/ and as I told you the harm that he sayeth in that point if he should divide it into ●wenty parts, nineteen. parts and an half were now clearly gone. For there remained but y● one case which he would have here seem comen, and yet in his seventh chapter of his first book he declareth himself that the case is but special, that is to wit, where the witnesses are kept away for fere/ else in all the remanant this man's harms that he layeth here against the law be very clearly gone.  
¶ And therefore his two gay cases of swearing a man's death, & winning a mamnys land by escheat, have place but in the special point of that one special law. And yet are his two cases such as well considered, are of no great effect. For if we should regard those two cases: the publishing of the witnesses names would seldom remedy the matter. For it might then as well hap, that such folk might hire other that should bear such false witness as do the thing themself, and of likelihood so would they rather do.  
¶ But saying that his cases for the far fetching and lykelyhed of so seldom fortuning, were likely to be taken for fond: yet for the favour of his own devising he was loath to scrape them out, but excuseth the devising of them thus.  
And if it be said that these cases fall so seldom that it ought little to be pondered: so may it be said like wise that it falleth but seldom that the witnesses in heresy stand in any fere of them that they acc●se.  
¶ Now if this answer of his were good & true, that it happeth as seldom that the witnesses stand in any such fear: then he soileth hi● own reason himself. For than hath he no cause to complain for the law to keep the witness close, made but for to serve in that special seldom case, where it happeth such fear to fall.  
¶ And therefore is his last cause verily not very shamefast, where he maketh as though the law were made general, to prohibit all men that they should not have knowledge of the witnesses in no case.  
¶ And as for in this point of his, whereupon all his whole matter hangeth, to show you that he saith plain untrue, and groundeth all this gear of alway keeping witnesses close, upon a plain open lie: I will for this time take none other witnesses against him but his own plain open words. For in his seventh chapter of his division, lo thus good readers he saith.  
And in the chapter there, that beginneth Statuta quedam, it is decreed/ that if the bishop or other enquerours of heresy, see that any great danger might come to the accusour● or witness of heresy by the great power of them that be accused: that then they may command, that the names of the accusers or witness shall not be showed but to the bishop or enquerours/ or such other learned men as be called to them, and that shall suffice/ though they be not showed to the party. And for the more indempnyte of the said accusers and witness it is there decreed/ that the bishop or enquerours may enjoin such as they have showed the names of such witness unto/ to keep them close upon pain of excommunication, for disclosing that secret without their lycens. And surely this is a sore law/ that a man shallbe condemned/ and not know the names of them that be causers thereof.  
¶ Now good christian readers here you see plainly by his own words, that the cause of that law is special, & serveth but where as there is fear that the witnesses might stand in dayngeour, by reason that the person detected were a man of great might and power, which happeth very seld and almost never till it b● well nigh passed remedy. And therefore now you see by these words of his own, that those other words of his are to shameful, where he now saith here, that the law is general, & forbiddeth all men that they should not have knowledge of the witness in no case. upon my faith except this good man see better how to salve this sore than I see: I would not have written such another point in my book, for more than all the paper cost and the prenting to.  
¶ But now as I say, sith you see that all these grenes of his be gone save in this one only case of so great probable fear, while he groundeth all the remanant upon a great open vn●rewth: it is you see well a very seldom grief that is left. For I never saw, nor to my remembraunce● red, nor trust in god never shall see the need, that ever any great man who●● folk needed to fere, was condemned in this realm for heresy, save only sir Hugh old castle once in the time of king Henry the .v. that was than lord Cobbam/ nor yet he neither, till that thorough his heresy he fell to treason to, and would have been the captain of heretics in a sudden traitorous insurrection.  
¶ And therefore as for this harm that this good man telleth us here, that riseth by the suit ex officio in heresy, this point is as you see both reasonable if it happened, and in law sufficiently provided fore/ and yet beside that so seld happeth here in this realm, that it was folly for him to speak thereof/ and yet no more toucheth in deed the suit ex officio, than if the suit were bygon and pursued by some great man, that would & feared not to profess himself for accuser. And thus is this case utterly nothing to purpose/ & all the remanant is (as you see also by his own words proved) grounded upon great untruth. And therefore all this that he hath said set aside for nought: let us now see what other harm the good man findeth further. Lo good readers therein thus he saith.  
Also sir Tho. More denieth not, but that by reason of the law, ex de heretici● ca Ad abolendam, which is recited in the vii chapter of the said treatise ● a man may be driven ●o a purgation without any offence in him, or be accursed, as if he be notably suspected, and yet not guilty, as it may well be: and yet he will not condescend, that that law should be changed, but saith in fortyfyenge thereof, that verily he thinketh, that he which can not be proved guilty in heresy, and yet useth such manner of ways, that all his honest neighbours ween he were one/ & therefore in their conscience dare not swear that he is any other/ is well worthy to do some penance. Truly this is a marvelous persuasion, that a mā●hulde be put to his purgation/ because his neighbours dare not swear that he is no heretic.  
¶ Now good readers because this good man beginneth here to fortify his word, with that that I did not in my said xl chapter of mine apology deny, that a man may be driven to a purgation without any offence in him or be accursed, as if he be notably suspected & yet not guilty: I will first bring you forth mine own words written in the said chapter/ and afterward than shall we see whither he can take such great hold upon my words, as he would it should seem. Lo good readers these are my words. folio .220.  
It may be sometime (albe it very seld it happeth) that in heresy upon other vehement suspicions without witnesses, a man may be put to his purgation, and to penance also if he fail thereof/ which thing why so many should now think so hard a law as this pacifier saith there do I can not see/ nor those wise men neither that made the law. And yet were they many wise men/ and not only as wise, but peradventure many more also in number, than those that this pacifier calleth many now, that as he saith now do find the fault. For though it be alleged in the extra. de hereticis: yet was that law made in a general counsel. And verily me thinketh that he which can not be proved guilty in heresy, and yet useth such manner of ways, that all his honest neighbours ween he were one in deed, and therefore dare not swear that in their conscience they think him any other: is well worthy to do some panaunce for that manner of behaviour, whereby he giveth all other men occasion to take him for so naughty.  
¶ Now good readers where this man taketh me that I say a man may be driven to his purgation without offence: you see well I say not so/ but I say that he doth a great offence, & well worthy were to be driven to his purgation & to do penance to, if he be not able to purge himself/ but have used himself so like an heretic in all good folks opinion, that he can find no good folk that dare in their conscience swear that they think other wise. This say I is a great offence and worthy to drive him to this point. And this good man saith that I deny not, but that he may by the law be driven to it without offence.  
¶ And where as he saith I deny not that he may be driven thereto without witness: wherefore not I pray you? For the suspicions being proved by witnesses, to be notable and vehement, will they not be cause sufficient to drive him to purge himself of that infamy, or else to do penance for bringing himself therein to, but if there be witnesses of his express heretical words?  
No saith this good man, & marveleth that I could think this any reason. But why he should so marvel at the matter, or why I should be ashamed to think so, thereof telleth us this good man no tale at all, but only saith, Truly this is a marvelous persuasion, that a man should be put to his purgation because his neighbours dare not swear that he is none heretic.  
¶ marvelous god where was this man's mind when he wrote these words? do I say that he shall be put to his purgation, because his neighbours will not swear with him? nay I say that when there be by witnesses sworen before his face, suspicions of heresy proved upon him: than may th'ordinary put him to such purgation, to prove whither they will swear with him or no. For when they will not but refuse it/ what mad man would say that he shallbe put to that purgation than, when he hath failed thereof, and it all ready paste. This man speaketh here as one that perceived no piece of the matter.  
¶ For where as I declare that he is in great offence that so useth himself, that none of his honest neighbours dare swear/ that in their consciences he is any other than an heretic: this man taketh it as though they that should swear with him in his purgation, should precisely swear that he were none heretic/ where as their oath shall not be what he is in deed, but what themself think of his oath/ they shall not swear that he is none heretic, but that they believe that he hath sworen true, in denying th'articles said unto his charge. Like as in the wageour of a law, they shall not swear that the defendant oweth not the money, but that they believe that he sweareth truth.  
¶ I marvel in good faith that this good man handleth this matter in this manner, & without any telling why, marveleth so much that I would think that law reasonable.  
But surely though he could make me a proper reason for his part, and myself another for the same side also: yet would I think myself right unreasonable, if I should upon his reason & mine, advise & counsel this realm in a matter concerning the conservation of the faith, to alter and change that law that was made by so great advise, by an whole general counsel of all christendom/ wherein there were (I doubt it not) men that had as good zeal to keep innocentes out of trouble, as any of us twain/ and much more reason also than we both have to. But that point that I showed him in my apology, that the same provision that is made in the saw ad abolendan, was also made in a general counsel: the tale he letteth go by, as though he heard it not.  
¶ But than he cometh forth with a word or two of a further fault in the law, which either the man understandeth not what in meaneth, or else is it herd for any man to think that he meaneth well. These are his words so And verily the law is that their oath in that case should not be accepted: for the said chapter Ad abolendam, is that if a man be notably suspected of heresy, that he shall purge himself after the will of th'ordinary or be accursed: and so the purgation of hy● neighbour will not serve: Let every man therefore consider, whether the said law be indysferent or not. And if it be not, let them put to their hand to have it broken. And & think verily, they shall deserve great thank of god, if they turn it to a more indifferent way, than it is at now. For under this manner the most innocent man that is, may of malice be reported to be suspected of heresy and be not so in deed, and so be driven to his purgation or be accursed: and then there is another law, that if he in that case of an indurate mind stand so accursed a year, he shallbe punished as an heretic and that is by the law, Extra de hereticis, ca Exc●municamu●.  
¶ This provision good readers that he speaketh, which is in the law ad abolendam, recited in the .v. book of the decretalis in the title de hereticis that such as were suspect should purge themself at the arbitrement & discretion of thordinary, was as I before have said afterward, looked upon & allowed in the general counsel called consilium latranense, as every man may soon perceive that will well consider the paragraph excommunicamꝰ afterward in the same title. For where as the law there saith, Qui inuenti fuerit sola suspitione notabiles, nisi statim innocentiam svam congrua purgatione monstraverint: these words congrua purgatione be referred unto the other law ad abolendan thereof made before, as both appeareth by such doctors as write upon the laws/ & also to him that will consider it well it well appeareth by the self text. For in the paragraf Ixion. be rehearsed part of the very words of the law● ad abolendam, whereby we may see that the counsel there looked upon that law. And so was I say that provision which this man calleth so unreasonable, not only made by pope Lucius the iii but after also made again by ratificacyon by pope Innocent the iii in an hose general counsel. And read the stories who so will, and he shall find both by Plativa and Cronica cronicarum to, that both this pope Lucius and this pope Innocent were very virtuous men.  
And here had it been reason now therefore, that this good man sith he findeth in this point so great a fault in the wittis of both these good pope's, & in all them that were membres of that general counsel, and in all the wyttis of all christian regions that have used and allowed that law for good ever sins: reason would I say/ that he should at the lest have laid some reason here, wherefore the law can not please him, that he which though he be not proved gysty of the deed, is yet proved suspect, should purge himself after tharbitrement of th'ordinary, that is to wit in such manner wise as thordinary should think convenient, upon the qualities of that person & circumstances of the cause considered.  
¶ Suppose now that there were none other manner of purgation, but by his neighbours swearing with him, & that those words ad arbitrium epi were not written in the law: were it yet reason to accept his oath in what so ever manner the man would himself devise it? and with as few hands as himself list appoint? and with what manner folk so ever himself would bring?  
¶ Nay sir. For it may so be, that there shallbe good cause why sometime and in some place, that thordinary should not put some man to that kind of purgation which if he did, were he never so naughty, he should be sure of compurgatours, peradventure more than enough. ¶ For it hath been seen in many countries ere this & sometime in england to, that some evil preacher preaching plain open heresies, should yet (if he might have been put to such purgation) have lacked none hands to lay on the book with him, that he never spoke such words.  
How be it where the words are open & plain heresy, the law hath provided an other way for the remedy good enough  
¶ But than have there been some preachers such ere this, the teaching plain heresies to their familiars secretly, would preach in such wise abroad, that their words should have two senses, & one boat serve for either leg like a shipman's hose/ & so should be tempered as the people should have occasion always to take them to the worst/ and himself if he were examined would say before th'ordinary & swear to, that he never meant but the best.  
¶ Now when it should by good witnesses appear, that his manner was such the people took much harm thereby, & alway took his words so that they thought he so meant them, that he purposed by them to set forth & advance those things that were stark heresies in deed: if th'ordinary should than appoint him with other compurgatours to purge this suspicion, were these suspicions never so vehement, he should lack no compurgatours to purge himself every week, & than do as he did before. And many good simple folk taking him even as he meant, should fall into his heresies the while/ & ween while he preached so still, that to believe the way were no peril. ¶ And therefore those wise men that made the law, left the thing in thordinaries discretion to assign him that is proved suspect of heresy, such kind of purgation as the circumstances of the person, and the people and the time shall most require.  
¶ And therefore will thordinary to some man so suspect, sometime assign him (to purge his suspicion that with his lewd manner of preaching he is fallen in, to the great hurt of his hearers) that he shall openly confess that those heresies that the people took him to mean, be very false here syes in deed/ and openly shall detest them and swear that he so believeth them to be/ and swear that he neither meant to teach them, nor never was minded that any man should take him so, nor never would afterward teach nor hold heresies, but abjure them for ever.  
¶ And yet for the further purgation of such suspicion, the ordinary might also enjoin him some certain things to do, such as may declare the more clereli, that he is not of such mind/ as open preaching against the self same heresies, & the doing of some such things as those heresies did stand against.  
¶ And now by this purgation this good shall he do, that if he would after preach the same things again though he used again such another wily fashion: yet would his audience then think thus (as many as had any mind to be good) either this man meaneth now by his words to teach us that point that himself hath abjured, and then let us not learn the thing of him that he would in no wise we should/ or else he meaneth to teach it us still for all his abjuration. And then wherefore should we be so mad to believe a false wretch, that would make us believe now, that that thing were true/ which himself hath openly confessed and sworn to be false.  
¶ But then will happily this good man say, that this abjuration is perilous for jeopardy of the relapse. The apparel of death by relapse is not upon every abjuration. But of troth he that is abjured upon such things proved, as maketh him not slightly but very vehemently suspected, if he fall after into heresy, putteth himself in apparel to fall into the fire. And very good reason it is that it be so. And a man may some time be so suspect of felony by reason of sore presumptions, that though no man saw him do it, nor himself never confess it, but say and swear to that he never had it: yet may he be founden guilty of it, and thereupon hanged for it, and have no wrong at all.  
¶ And thus this provision for purgation at the discretion of the ordinary, is not I trust so unreasonable, nor they so unreasonable that made it, nor they so unreasonable that ratified it, nor all they so unreasonable that this two or three hundred year have accepted and allowed it, but that it may now stand by this good man's leave at this day as well as it hath standen all this while before. But yet is there one thing that he taketh for a thing very sore. For than is there (saith he) another law that if he that is so proved suspect, refuse to purge himself at the discretion of thordinary, and be for his contumacy excommunicate: that in that case if he of an obdurate heart stand so accursed an whole year, he shallbe punished as an heretic. And that is (as he saith) by the law Extra de hereticis, capitulo Excommunicamus.  
¶ This provision was made as I told you in the said general counsel. And where he bringeth it forth as though it were a very sore thing and a cruel: it is in deed very favourable. For saving that I will not do as he doth, go find faults in their doings, that were so many so much better, and had so much more wit than I: else could I lay a little better cause to prove that provision over favourable, then ever this good man shall find while he liveth, to prove that provision to sore.  
And surely he that being proved suspect, and refuseth in such reasonable manner to purge himself thereof, as his ordinary shall by his discretion assign him, which must both by law & all reason be his judge and not himself, showeth himself little to force or care, though folk ween he were an heretic: which thing sore aggrieveth the suspicion that he verily is one in deed. And then when he will rather be once accursed, then of such suspicion yet to purge and clear himself: he yet increaseth the suspicion twice so sore. But finally when rather then to purge that suspicion, he continueth excommunicated all the whole year, and never will be purged in the while, but if he may have it accepted in such a faint fashion as himself list to offer: the suspicion of his heresies from sore and vehement, turn by such dealing into plain open and violent, so that he can in reason be none other reckoned but a plain heretic in deed, whom to tolerate so long doth sometime little good. And then sith the law is, that such as the favour of the church shall preserve from the temporal hands, should by the law be only those, which upon their detection, turn of their own offer meekly by and by, and show good tokens of right hearty repentance: I will let no man from thinclination toward pity, in preserving the life of any man/ when so ever he seem penitent. But yet surely when the church receiveth again that man, that by his obstinate dealing, with abiding excomunicate and contempning the great curse all the whole year, rather than he would purge the suspicion of his heresy, but if he may purge it after his own sweet will, proveth himself at last, to have been an heretic so long, & all that while would not return but ever more draw bakke: if thordinary for all that receive him to grace again, and keep him still and preserve him from the seculare hands: I will not say that he doth wrong/ but finding him yet repentant, fain would I see him saved.  
¶ But yet without doubt as far as I can see, th'ordinary to save the man's life of pity, stretcheth out with his teeth the law and reason both, so far that even scantly can any of the both hold.  
¶ And therefore these laws being such as they be, made and ratified by whole general counsel, accepted and used so long thorough all christendom: when this good man cometh now forth, and upon his own bare reason as bare as ever I herd yet in all my life, because only that an innocent may sometime take harm, which may happen upon any law that ever all the world can make, whereby there shallbe devised any punishment for the evil folk, he biddeth every man consider now whither the law be just or not, & if it be not, biddeth every man put to their hands to have it broken and make a better, and sayeth that he thinketh they shall have great thank of god therefore: his request is now no better, but in effect even this, that against every wise man's reason well approved hitherto, every man should in this matter now, either trust unto his, or else at the lest wise every man to his own/ and in stead of a better old law, make a new much worse. For if his devise were followed: it appeareth plainly so there should/ and heresies should grow up on height, and the catholic faith decay. And then god save us from that thank of god that shortly we should with such dealing deserve.  
¶ Thus have I good readers as you see clearly confuted this good man's answer in both the pryncypa●● points, of which the tone was wherein he minded to show that in heresy the suit of office might be left, and that by the leaving there should none harm follow to the catholic faith/ because heretics might as well come to correction by the way of open accusers as by that manner suit.  
¶ But in this point you have seen clearly, that his devise would never so serve the matter/ but that it were very likely so to minish in this realm the catholic faith with increase of heresies, that thindignation of god were sore to be feared thereby to follow thereon: and the realm to fall in trouble and business, with insurrection of the same rebellyous● heretics, that by the change of that law had so been suffered to grow as other countries have been of late, and this realm was ere this so near like to have been/ that for thavoyding of the like apparel to fall afterward, it provided by parliament of great policy/ for the better repressing of heresies, to fortify that law and give th'ordinary yet greater power to maintain it/ and with temporal assistance to make it more strong.  
¶ His second point was to show that of the keeping of that law, there should grow great harm/ because the law is so unreasonable he saith, that innocentes may come to trouble thereby without offence.  
¶ This part how properly this good man hath proved, that have you seen also/ and that he therein is so full and whole confuted, that when he readeth it again, I suppose he will not now greatly like it.  
¶ Now these two thus handled he cometh to the third point, which though I granted him all together, yet were he never the near. For that point is such as if I win it, than it maketh my part more plain: but on the other side if I lost it & he wan it, yet were mine plain enough. And strong enough were my part with the first point alone. For if by the leaving of the suit of office should follow thincrease of heretics, as every man I think that wit hath, may well see that there would/ than though there would some other harm hap sometime thereof, yet must that other harm in reason, rather be borne than that.  
¶ But now to come good readers unto the third point, which if he won all together could very little serve him/ ye shall see him yet by god's grace, win him never a piece.  
¶ The third point good readers in mine apology you see well yourself intendeth nothing else, but by en●emple of the comen laws of this realm, to show that the same spiritual law, which this man would prove unreasonable, is not in d●de proved unreasonable by this thing that he here putteth for the ꝓfe/ that is to say, because that by that law sometime it might hap that a man might fall in apparel of a crime which he committed not. For if it so were now, that in all the cases that I rehearsed of the comen law, there could never no man that had not done the deed, take any harm so much as a phylyppe/ yet though I had missed in those ensamples, the thing might yet be true. For there m●ghte be for all that, other ensa●ples enough, both in other good la●es and in the same to, th●● a law w●re not vnreasonab●●, nor to be put a 〈…〉 might hap●e sometime some m●n take some harm that never did the deed that were laid to his charge. And of troth this conclusion is so clear that it needeth no proof at all. And therefore though he wan all that point/ yet had he lost the matter. But let us now a little see whether he win this point or no.  
¶ And because the effect of all his answer lieth all way in this, that he sayeth all way that the sample of the comen law that I lay, is not like the thing that I resemble it unto in the spiritual law: I shall first rehearse you mine own words in mine apology/ and than shall I rehearse you his words here, ●●at when you have herd both tw●yne, whether they be like or unlike ye ●aye the more surely judge. These were 〈…〉 aders m● w●rdes.  
And 〈…〉 thinketh t●at he which can not be proved gylty●●n heresy, and yet v●eth such man●r o● ways that all his honest neighbours ween he were one, and therefore dare not swear that in their conscience they think him any other/ is well worthy me thinketh to do some penance for that manner of behaviour, whereby he giveth all other folk occasion to take him for so naughty.  
And by the comen law of this realm, many times upon suspicion the judges a ward write to inquire of what fame and behaviour the man is in his country/ and himself lieth sometime still in prison till the return/ and if he be returned good, that is to wit if he be in a manner purged, then is he delivered/ & yet he payeth his fees ere he go. And if he be returned nought/ then use the judges to bind him for his good abering, and some time sureties with him to, such as their discretion will allow. And then to lie still till he find them, is sometime as much penance to the tone, as the spiritual judge enjoin to the t'other. For the tone cometh to the bar as openly as the t'other to the consistory/ and sometime his feters way a good piece of a faggot, besides that they lie longer on the tone man's legs, than the faggot on the tother shoulder. And yet is there no remedy but both these must be done, both in the tone court and in the t'other/ or else in stead of one harm (which to him that deserveth it not happeth seldom, and as seldom I am sure in heresy as in theft, and much more seldom to) ye shall have ten times more harm happen daily to folk as innocent as they/ and of innocentes many made nocentes, to the destruction of themself and other to, both in goods body and soul.  
¶ To this piece lo good reader this is this good man's answer.  
Then he goeth further for maintenance of the said suit Ex officio, and resembleth it to arresting for suspicion of felony, and to the surety of good abearing, and to indictments: whereupon men be put to answer at the comen law. And how far these resemblances vary from the suit Ex officio, he in some place openeth it himself. But yet for a more plain declaration therein, I shall say a little farther in that matter. first as to the arresting for suspicion of felony, it is in deed an old law of this realm, that for suspicion of felony, a man may be arrested, so that he that doth arres●e him upon a reasonable cause, doth suspect him: but it is a general rule, that he shall never be put to answer upon that arrest, but proclamation shallbe made that if any man will lay any thing against him, that is so suspected, that it shall be herd: & if none such come he shallbe delivered without fine or a●y other punishment, with a good exhortation of the judges, that he shall take good heed how he ordereth himself in time to come. And then master More likeneth the penance of such a man that hath been in prison upon suspicion of felony, and so delivered by proclamation, to the bearing of a faggot for heresy. For he saith, that the one of them shall come as openly to the bar as the other to the consistory: And that sometime his fetters shall ●ey a good piece of the faggot, besides that they lie longer on the one man's legs, than the faggot on the other man's shoulder: but he rehearseth not how they lie many times longer in prison for heresy, than they do either for suspicion of felony or for good abering. And over that I dare say, that there are but few, but that they had well liefer abide the pain to be thrice acquitted by proclamation, and peradventure ofter, them once bear a faggot for heresy.  
¶ How goeth now good readers this answer of this good man unto the purpose, to prove the trouble of him that is arrested upon suspicion of felony, to be unlike to the trouble of him that is sued ex officio for heresy, touching the point that I resemble them for?  
¶ The point ye wot well for which I speak of th'arresting for suspicion of felony, is to show, that like wise as it may happen a man for heresy to fall in trouble sometime though he were none heretic in dede●: so may it happen a man sometime to be troubled upon suspicion of fel●nye, though he be no fellow in deed: and yet both the tone law necessary and the t'other to/ and neither of both may be forborn. Hath this good man proved us the contrary of this? that you see well he hath not. And then hath he not pardie proved them unlike.  
¶ He weeneth he saith somewhat, when he telleth us that upon tharresting upon suspicion of felony he shall not be put to answer till he be indited. What is his trouble the less for that? If he lie in prison till the session as he may hap to do were it not more his ease to be put to answer before and acquytte, if he be not faulty (for of such folk we speak) than for lack of putting to answer lie still in prison the longer?  
¶ As for that, that in conclusion if no man lay nought to his charge at the sessions, he shall be delivered by proclamations/ so shall he that is suspected of heresy to: For if there be nothing founden against him, he shall neither be driven to abjuration nor purgation, but be delivered quite, how so ever that either thy● man myssetake or would make other men myssetake the matter to the contrary.  
¶ And as to that, that the tone shall pay no fine/ no more shall the other neither.  
¶ If this man will peradventure say, sith that th'ordinary findeth the man not suspect in the end, why did he take and arrest him for suspect in the beginning. Because that in the beginning the man seemed upon good considerations suspect, and seemed likely to i'll, and upon his examination the matter full searched out, the causes of suspicion so well avoided, that thordinary declareth him for discharged without any other purgation. But yet hath it misshaped him to have some harm the mean while/ and so hath it him also that was arrested upon suspicion of felony that never was after indyghted, but delivered forth free upon the proclamation.  
¶ I see no great difference between these two men in all this matter yet, save that the tone lieth at his own finding, the t'other at the bishops cost.  
¶ For where as this man saith, that he which is delivered by proclamation, hath, alway given him by the iustycis a good lesson at his departing: if the bishop give not the other a good lesson at his departing to, than is he somewhat to blame in deed/ but in ●ood faith I here say that he doth so to. And therefore where is this difference yet? I look alway for that. For as for the shame of open bringing forth, is both one as I said/ saving that the session hath commonly much more people present to gaze upon the tone, than in the consistory looketh upon the t'other.  
¶ And where this man saith, that they lie longer in prison for heresy, than they do either for suspicion of felony or for good abearing/ if he speak of those which are in conclusion founden in no more fault concerning heresy, than those are that are delivered by proclamation be founden at the session concerning felony/ I dare be bold to tell him nay. And I am very sure the troth will prove so to. But now if he speak of those that appear upon th'end in such fault that by the law they be bound to abjure/ than is it good reason that they lie longer in deed. And so lie there as reason is sometime some for felony to, repryed upon causes from one session to another, and sometime kept you see well all the whole year and more. And that sometime such as are in conclusion never indyghted neither, but after all that delivered by proclamation, and yet good causes in the mean while why they were kept so. And therefore where as this man saith, that they be in worse case that bear a faggot, very troth it is somewhat and so is it reason they be. For they be not fawtelesse but convicted of the fault. And our dispicions is of innocentes that happen by the law, the tone law or the t'other, to take harm without their fault. For if he would compare the fawty with the fawtye, than must he compare the tone bearing the faggotte, with the t'other at the very first time borne up with the rope.  
¶ And therefore I did in that place, not only shew● that he that is innocent, may by arresting for felony hap to have as much harm, as he that is innocent and arrested for heresy: but that he may happen to have sometime also as much harm, as he that for the first time is founden fawty in heresy and plainly convicted thereof. And surely save for the further peril upon his ferther fault, so may it hap in deed and yet as I said in my dialogue the law must needs be kept, but if you will by the change have five thiefs for one. And thus as for this piece of arresting for suspytion of felony, the case hath he not proved unlike, touching the purpose that I put it for, but for my part very strong. And so hath this good man in this first piece of the third point a very great fall.  
¶ Than cometh he next unto another case that I spoke of also, that is to wit arresting upon good abering. And where as in mine apology that piece is the third, the piece in his answer he maketh the second/ and I see why well enough. For sith himself seethe that he answereth it so slenderly, he wrappeth it up in the mids, because it should be the less marked, and would end with another piece wherein himself weeneth tha● he saith somewhat better.  
¶ Now as for this good abearing, to th'end that ye may see the better how gaily this good man answereth it, I shall first rehearse you the words of mine apology that he maketh this answer to.  
¶ After that I have showeth there, that the judges of the spiritual court be not so foolish, but that they had liefer not meddle with any man, save only upon some such open inquisition as are indyghtementes of felony for avoiding of obloquy, saving that necessity compelleth them to take this way, for fear that with sufferance of heresies to go forth & grow, all might at length thorough god's displeasure very far grow to nought/ I say there farther thus folio .225.  
necessity sometime causeth also both the temporal judges and the kings counsel, to put some folk to business or dishonesty sometime, without either jury or bringing of the accuser to the proof of the matter in the parties presence.  
For if the judge know by sure information, that some one man is of such evil demeanour among his neighbours, that they may not ●ere it/ and yet that the man is bysyde so violent and so iuberdouse, that none of them dare be acknown to speak of it: will there no judges upon many secret complaints made unto them, without making the party privy who told him that tale, bind that busy troubelouse man to good abering? I suppose yes, and have seen it so to/ and wrong would it be some time with good poor peaceable folk in the country, but if it were so done among. And myself when I was chancellor, upon such secret information have put some out of commission and office of justice of the peace, which else for much money I would not have done, & yet if I were in the tone rome still and they in the t'other again, but if they be mended (whereof I neither then saw nor ye● here any likelihood) I would put them out again, and never tell them who told me the tales that made me so to do●  
¶ Lo good readers here you see, that in this piece I mean nothing else, but that where as this good man findeth a fault that the spiritual judge should meddle with any man for heresy without an open accuser complaining to him, or an open presentment in the beginning/ I show there that necessity is the cause, and forth with afterward I prove it, which this good man dissembleth here and inverteth here th'order for the nonies. And I show that necessity (lest much more harm should grow thereon) causeth the temporal judges & the kings honourable counsel to, to put some man to business sometime and so to dishonesty both, without either indyghtement, or open accuser, or suffering him to make answer either/ and thus be they fain to do, but if they should suffer many great harms to grow. Now mark well I require you how substantially this good man answereth this. These are his wise words so.  
And then as to the arresting for good abearing, troth it is, that a man by commandment of the justices may so be arrested, but he shall never be put to answer upon that arrest, but only bound, and sureties with him of his good abering. And if he can no such surety find, and he have lain there long in prison, than the● judges by their ●yscresyon may send a writ to inquire of his fame, and of his behaviour, which is called a wryt de gestu et fama● whereof sir Tho. More maketh mention in his apology: and if it be found for him upon that writ, that he is of good fame and behaviour, than he shallbe delivered. Whereby master More saith, he is in a manner purged, and by that saying it seemeth that his meaning is, that that desyverye should be resembled to his purgation upon the suspicion of heresy, as is said before. But how far they be unlike, it appeareth thus: when a man is delivered upon the said writ De gestu et fama, he is delynered ● as a man proved to be of good honesty and to be cleared by his neighbours, of that he was spspected of. And when he is purged upon the suit E● officio, or for suspicion of heresy, he is put to penance by thordinary, as a man suspected, whereof he is not cleared, and so shall he be taken among his neighbours, as a man worthy to do that penance for his offences, wherefore it appeareth ●uydentely, that they be nothing lyke●  
¶ In this answer good reader one piece he answereth with an untruth another piece he leaveth half unanswered, and to another piece he maketh none answer at all.  
¶ For where as he saith, that he that is purged of heresy in the suit ex officio, is put unto penance by the ordinary as a man suspect, whereof he is not cleared: this man saith untrue, and woteth not also what he meaneth. For the spiritual judge not only (as I have said) though he were sore suspected in the beginning when he took him, yet if he find in the examination those suspicions cleared: he putteth him to no further business at all, but also if it be not so fully cleared, but that there remain some tokens of suspicion, of which he think it good to purge him by the oath of himself & some other compour gatours with him, he putteth him after that purgation unto no penance neither. But now if it so be, that there be well proved such suspicions as are so vehement, that though they prove not precisely the deed, yet make every man that heareth them, that he can none other wise think: there will the ordinary cause him to abjure/ and that rather to purge him of the suspicion that he were still nought and afterward still would be nought, than that he was such before. And than for using himself in such wise before: though he do penance he hath but right. ¶ But in all those other cases of suspicion purged, he saith untrue/ for they do no penance at all.  
¶ Now concerning the good abering awarded by the justices: he answereth that it is true/ but it is he saith unlike unto this matter, because the justices (saith he) when he hath long lain in prison, may by their discretion (if he can find no sureties) a ward a writ de gestu et fama.  
¶ This is but half an answer, nor scant so much neither. For first him self saith that this writ they may send out after that the man hath long lain in prison/ so that than the man yet without presentment or open accuser hath had that long dying in prison in the mean while for his ●uyl demenure at home among his neighbours, whereof they durst not openly make complaint. And this doth as you see this good man deny, which is for my purpose enough.  
¶ But than saith he ferther for me, in that he saith they may award that writ if they will. wherein he implieth that if they will not, they may upon good discretion let him yet lie still & let the writ alone. And so hath he therefore put in one point ferther for me.  
¶ But yet hath this good man one stop gap for me still, to prove alway that my sample is not like/ and that is that where as in the suit ex officio, men be put to answer upon this arrest and imprysoment upon good abearing, the man shall never be put to answer.  
¶ For answer of this evasion I will ask this good man this, that he which is in prison upon good abering shall never be put to answer, whither is it his profit or his loss? If his loss: than his not putting to answer, maketh the matter of my resembling, much the more strong for me. And if this good man dare answer me that it is his profit: than will I no more but pray him to put the fellow in choice/ & than if himself chose it for the better, let him lie still for me.  
¶ This you see good readers that this man saith not nay, but that upon good abering by discretion of the justices, for all the writ de gestu & fama, a man may lie long in prison & some peradventure ever, how be it of troth I trow it happeth not so.  
¶ And yet can neither this good man say, nor I suppose no man else, but that it may sometime hap by possibility, that all that information were wrong. But that is a thing not likely to hap so often, but that if we should for such may happies, put away that order which order very necessity brought up: there would much mischief grow, & many great harms would there than hap in deed.  
¶ Now as touching that I said, that the kings counsel used also sometime upon great secret information to put some folk to business and to some dishonesty to/ and I letted not to lay some sample in mine own deed while I was chancellor myself, by putting some out of commission in their countries/ which dishonesty save for such secret information, I would not for an hundred pound have done them, & dare yet upon such se●ret information very well avow the doing/ & doubt not but that if I should declare the cause openly, both good men & wise men would allow my deed: to all this point lo this good man sayeth nothing at all, but letteth it go by his ears as though he never heard it.  
¶ And thus as I told you, concerning this piece of good abearing: this good answerer hath here borne himself so well, that some part he answereth with untruth, some part he answereth a great deal less than half, and some part never a deal. If men be content to take this fashion for answering: let any man make than against me as many books as he will, and put in what matter he list, and I shall never need to study much for an answer, but may make answers to them all shortly and short enough, and answer a long book in space of one paper ●efe.  
¶ But now let us see how he handleth this third piece of endyghtementes at the sessions. For that piece he setteth in the rear ward, to stay therewith all the field. But now that you may see what strength he hath in that ward: I shall first bring you forth that ward against which it fighteth. In mine apology fo. cc.xxii. these are mye words lo.  
And because this pacifier taketh it for so sore a thing in the spiritual law, that a man shall be called ex officio for heresy, where he shall not know his accuser: if we should change the spiritual law for that cause, them had we need to change the temporal to, in some such points as change it when ye will, and ye shall change it into the worse for aughte that I can see, but if it be better to have more thiefs then fewer.  
For now if a man be endyghted at a sessions, and none evidences given openly at the bar (as many be, and many may well be. For thenditers may have evidence given them a part, ● or have herd of the matter ere they came there, and of whom be they not bounden to tell, but be rather bound to keep it close, for they be sworen to keep the kings counsel and their own) shall then the party that is endyghted be put unto no business about his acquytayle? And who shall tell him there the names of his accuser, to entytle him to his write of conspyracye? This pacifier will peradventure say, that the same twelve men/ that are his endyghtours are his accusers, & therefore he may know them. But what helpeth that his undeserved vexation if he were fauteless? For amends the law giveth him none against any of them, nor it were not well done he should/ but may when he is after by other xii acquit, go get him home and be merry that he hath had so fair a day/ as a man getteth him to the fire and shaketh his hat after a shower of rain.  
And now as it often happeth, that a man cometh into a shower by his own oversight, though sometime of chauns and of adventure: so surely though sometime it hap that a man be accused or endyghted of malice, or o● some likelihood which happened him of chance and not his fault therein yet happeth it in comparison very seld, but that the party by some demeanour of himself giveth occasion that folk have him so suspected.  
¶ In this piece my purpose is good readers as you see, to show that like wise as a man shall in the suyt ex officio for heresy, not know his accuser: so may it also happen many times, that no more he shall neither, when he is at the comen saw indyghted of felony. And I show also therein as you see, that though it may tometyme hap either of malice or chance: yet it seldom happeth for all that, that the party so falleth in trouble without some default of himself, and that the comen general law may not for such seldom special haps be forborn. To this piece lo this good man answereth me thus.  
And then master More saith yet farther, that upon indictments at sessions, the indyters use not to show the names of them that gave them information. And he sayeth farther, that they may not show their names. For they may not disclose the kings counsel nor their own. But as I take it that prohibition of opening of the counsel in this case is only to be understand of their own counsel among themself, after that they be sworn/ but for opening of the names of them, that gave them information before they were sworn, I know no prohibition. And if they will not show their names, they be not bounden to do it/ for they be not bound to help the party to his writ of conspiracy, but as they list to do in conscience  
¶ Now good readers all this pretended defence, is nothing else in effect, but a fair confession, that it is in deed true the thing that I said myself, that he which is endyghted of felony, may be (as for any adu●tage that he can take thereby) as ignorant sometime who be his accusers, as he shall in the suit ex officio. And thereby may happen sometime, that he which is faultless shall not be all saved harmless/ and when he hath had his harm, shallbe remediless. And yet for all that the law not unreasonable, nor for avoiding of much more harm may not be forborn. And therefore as for my purpose even at that point might I have left, and needed to go no farther. And then as you see this good man had been quite answerless.  
¶ But yet went I farther where me needed not, and that this good man saith that I did of necessity, whereof for this matter I had of troth no need. And yet would I not now but I so had done in deed. For I have thereby the better brought to light, what lack this good man hath of any sufficient answer. For these are there lo good readers therein my farther words.  
Now if this pacifier say, that yet here is at the lest wise in a temporal inge an open cause appearing, whereupon men may see that the judge calleth him not, but upon a matter brought unto him/ where as the spiritual judge may call a man upon his own pleasure if he bear the party displeasure: this is very well said as for the temporal judge. But what saith he now for the temporal xii men? For ye wot well they may do the same if they were so disposed/ and then had I as leave the judge might do it as they. For in good faith I never saw the day yet, but that I durst as well trust the troth of one judge as of two juries. But the judges be so wise men, that for the avoiding of obloquy, they will not be put in the trust.  
And I dare say the ordinaries be not so foolish neither, but that they would as fain avoid it to if they might/ saving that very necessity lest all should fall to nought, compelleth them to take this way.  
¶ Here you see that I mean in this words, that though the pacifier would tell me that the temporal judge hath by such endyghtement at the lest wise, an open cause appearing whereupon a man may see that the judge calleth him not of his own mind, but upon a matter brought unto him: I would them grant him that this is in deed a good ease to the temporal judge, to keep him out of obloquy. And the spiritual judges be not so unwise, but that they would be glad of such another pavise saving that they be bounden to take the other way, and suffer themself evil peoples obloquy, for avoiding of the harm that else would follow, by the decay of Cristes' catholic faith. Which thing I there prove well to, as you shall after se. This as I say would I have granted alway this good man. But then I would allway therewithal have told him to, that yet all that tale of his had nothyge touched the point/ but that alway for all this tale, the man that was indyghted, if the matter were in deed untrue, was never the nearer the knowledge who were his accusers, to get any amends thereby, no more than he that is called of office for heresy before a spiritual judge. And here now what he saith to this, and whither we be by his answer for the point that was meant by me, any one inch yet the nearer. Lo good readers this is his proper answer.  
And then because he can none otherwise do, but confess a great dynersyte betwixt them that be put to answer ex officio, and them that be put to answer before the kings justices upon indictments at the common law: for there the judges have sufficient and apparent matter to put them to answer upon, and in the other there is none, but that the spiritual judge upon a displeasure may do it ex officio, if he will. Therefore he goeth yet farther and sayeth, that the xii men may yet do the same, and make a man to be called that is not guilty, if they were so disposed. And troth it is, they may endite a man, that is absent, and that is also not guilty, and be untrue, if they will: but yet in such case the xii men be known that do it, and be also compelled to be upon the inquyrye: for they may not be upon it, but they be thereto assigned: and also the party upon their verdict shall not be put to answer before them, as it is upon the suit Ex officio, but before the kings judges, before whom the indytement is no attainder to the party: but that he may be found not guilty, not withstanding that indictment. And though master More say, that he never saw the day yet, but that he dursie as well trust the truth of one judge as of two juries: I think the judges will can him but little thank f●r that praise: for surely inryes must needily be believed and trusted. And therefore it is not the manner of the judges to lay untruth upon a jury, ne yet to commend them that do it, but it be proved afort them o●●ecorde after the order of the law.  
¶ Here you see good reader's that touching the point that we spoke of, all this tale helpeth nothing, but goeth all about another matter, to prove another difference between the suit of office and indyghtementes, as though I had said there were no difference between them at all. But I was never yet so mad to be of that mind. For then must I say they were both one. And then were every endytement a suit of office, & every suit of office an indyghtement, if there were no diversities between them at all.  
¶ And therefore if his diversity shall serve aught for the purpose: he must make it appear that the suit of office because of that difference, and because it is not like indyghtementes in that point, is therefore in heresy either very clearly nought, or else that at the lest wise it were somewhat better, that they should never put any man to answer in heresy, but either upon open accusation or psentement had before. For else if he ween to win this point of me with showing forth a difference: if his difference prove me no such thing as I tell you, he may for the matter as well bring us forth any verse difference at adventure, that he learned at grammar school.  
¶ Now when he hath laid all his diversities on an heap, & would thereupon conclude, that because of those diue●syties, the suit of officio were nought and unreasonable: I say that followeth nothing: For it proveth yet no farther at the farthest, but that the order of the comen law were better, & not that the t'other were nought. For it might well be for all that, that the comen law might be good enough, though they that secretly or openly come now & inform the quest, came either secretly or openly, and likewise informed the court.  
¶ And now saw I well, that to this point was there none answer for this good man again/ but to tell me that in such things as they now trust the quests, it were apparel in stead of ●uryes so much to trust the court, by cause the judges might then fain matter against men, and say they were secretly informed. To this sith I saw what trust the realm must needs put in the judges hands, so far above the wheyghte of the first endyghtement, that serveth for nothing but for an information and saying also what manner of men they be that be chosen to be judges, so that there is nothing of so great weight but that it well may be put in their hands: I reckoned them of such troth, that save for evil folks obloquy, to themself ward/ else to the people there should come none harm, though the trust that we put in thendytoursenditers, were in stead of them put in the judge himself. This I there said lo, and this I think in deed. For as I said there, I neu●r saw yet the day, but that I durst as well trust the truth of one judge, as I durst trust the troth of two juries. What hath this good man answered me now to this? To all this gear here is lo his worsyppefull answer. I think the judges will can him but little thanks for that praise. For surely juries must needs be believed and trusted. And therefore it is not the manner of the judges, to lay untruth to a jury/ ne yet to commend them that do it. But it be proved afore them of record after the order of the law.  
¶ This answer of truth is not worth a straw. For as for that he saith the judges will for that praise can me little thank: that word were somewhat, if I had said it for their thank. But I said it in good saith, not for their thank at all, but because it is very troth, that I never saw the day yet in deed, nor never I trust in god I shall, but that I may well and so will I do in deed, ●rust the troth of one judge, as well as the troth of two juries. I would here wit of this good man, what dispraise is this to any jury? what untruth is there here laid unto them, or to any one man of them, I will use one word now this once, which this good man useth often. For now will I say a little farther, and that is this (though this man may hap to think the saying strange) I will not let to believe the troth of some one man, of whose troth I make myself sure & doubt nothing at all, even as well as the truth of a great many at ones, though they be all such as I believe every one of them as well as I believe himself. And I also believe some one judge alone, not in cunning but in truth, as well as I will believe both himself & all his fellows to. For some one man may be such, that if he should tell me a tale as of his own perfit knowledge: I would so little doubt it to be true, that I could believe it no better, though all the town told it with him. Lo what a great untruth I lay here to the juries.  
¶ And this I say for myself. And now will I with this good man's leave, say yet a little farther, and I ween I sha●l not say so alone. I suppose verily that there be very few, but so that it might make a final end in their matter, except happily some such as trust more in the favour of the country then in the truth of their cause: they would rather be content to put it whole into the judges hands, then trouble the country with calling up of the juries, whose troth yet many times deceiveth them, that in an evil cause have very great trust unto them.  
¶ And yet in all this say not I that the comen order and long con●ytynued law of this realm, to try the matters by juries, & in felony or treason never to precede but upon endyghtementes, is not good/ nor that the contrary way were better. Mary two things I say, that in treason and felony this ordinary law of endyghtementes is many times fain to be helped forth by another mean, much like in many things to the suit ex officio/ and that is by diligent politic search and examinations bysyde, both by the kings honourable counsel, & the judges, & justices of peace, every man for their part in every part of the realm/ & else would there many such mischiefꝭ pass by & by indightem●t never would be founden. And some great and clearly proved felonies before diverse and right worshipful of the kings counsel, have I wist ere this, that never could be gotten to be founden by endyghtement in their countries, for all that. How be it such examinations hath caused yet many mischievous people to be brought to their punishment/ and have put also many such other unthrifts in fere, & made them refrain fro theving and draw themself to thrift/ or else not wytstanding that there are yet thiefs enough, there would be without doubt many more.  
¶ The other thing that I will say is this, that all these differences & diversities that this good man putteth here, between indyghtementes & the suit ex officio, proveth nothing that the suit ex officio is not good/ but only at the very uttermost, that the order not to proceed without an open presentment were better. For 〈◊〉 said before, though this law by endyghtementꝭ be better in felony now: yet were not the other way nought, if the law were so that the judges might proceed and put felons to answer without endyghtementꝭ/ as in treason is used in this realm by the law marshal upon war reared, as we saw by experience in captain Quintyn captain Genyn Corbet and ●elke. And yet is that law not evil, though that our own comen law be better, and that though we trust the juries never so well, yet might we trust the judges as well. And this may I say me thinketh without any dispraise or fault finding in the juries at all. For let him assign me two juries of very well known good men/ & than if he will ask me what fault find you sir in these men: I will answer him, Marry sir no fault at all I. I take them all for good men & true, and think they will not say but truth/ nor I never said nor thought other wise. But than would I assign him by name one of our judges again/ and say now sir that I trust the troth of your two juries well, what fault is that that you find in this judges troth, that maketh you to chekke me so because I will trust h●m no worse than I will trust them. For that is ye wot well all that ever I said, that I would trust the judge as well, and not that I would trust him better. And yet if I had said I would of the both trus●e the judge better: I had not by that word neither, dispraised the troth of juries. For he that saith he will better bysene xxiiii then xii, dispraiseth not the troth of the petit juries, but believeth them well also, save such as be founden false. And thus I have showed you that I may well say the words that I said, without any finding of any fault in any juries. And it appeareth also meetly well, that himself can not well say the contrary without some manner of distrust in their troth. And yet sith their wurshyppies be so well know that this good man's dystruste can not apayre it: they will I dare say forgive him. How be it sith the judges would (as this man saith, and as I dare also say they would, be sore discontent with me, if I dystrusted the ●routh of the juries: the juries may now no less do again of courtesy, than for his worse opinion of the iudgis troth somewhat be angry wyt● him.  
¶ Nor herein see I none other shift for this good man, but for the maintenance of his matter to say, that in the comen law, the law would be good enough in felony, though the trust were put in the judges, to put traitors and felons to answer without indyghtement/ but in heresy it could not be good before an ordinary/ and would say for his cause a diversity between the tone judge & the t'other, and say that our judges be good men and worshipful, & ever 〈◊〉 been and ever shall/ and that the ordinaries be, and ever have been, & shallbe, very false & nought. Other shift hath this man none that I see than even to say thus. And verily his book of division, save that it saith nothing to the praise of temporal judges that I now remember: yet to the dispraise of the spiritual, for those algates that be now, saith even in effect as much, ye and rather yet worse to, save that the colour of some say saveth him from saying it himself.  
¶ But now if he defend himself with that fashion again: what the juries will say that can I not tell/ for the panellies be not yet called. But as for our judges, I know their wysedoms and their wurshyppies such, that I am very sure in his so saying and his so dying upon the spiritual judges, they would can him no thank at all.  
¶ And verily that the spiritual ordinaries be not at these days likely to be such, the temporal judges being so good as they be: there is among many other one lykelyhed this, that he hath chosen the tone that hath chosen the t'other, the kings gracious highness himself/ which having on both sides very good to choose of, hath I dare say been as circumspect in choosing of th'ordinary, as of the judges. And yet lest in their absence the officers of their own choice might hap to misseordre the matters: his grace keepeth not two bishops of all the realm out of their diocises, nor to say the troth not so much as one. For he whose attendance his grace useth most, is far the most part of the year in his own diocese every day.  
¶ And therefore as I said before, all these verse differences, and all these diversities, which this good man sayeth between the suit ex ●fficio in heresy, & the not proceeding with out indyghtem●tes upon treason or felony, proveth at the very fertheste not that the suit ex off●cio is nought, but that not to proceed but upon a presentment w●re the better away. And than I say that it is a poor tale and a cold, if a man would come forth & labour us to break every old law long used in this realm, which he could not prove but that it were good enough/ but yet would needs have it changed, because that if it were now to make, himself could he saith make it better.  
¶ But now will I come a little nearer unto this good man, with the ●o●he rpoynte that I touched before/ that is to wit that it is not in this mat●r enough for this good man, to prove 〈◊〉 that not to proceed without open o●●●sacion or presentment is the bet●er way, both upon treason and velonye, but if he prove us ferther, i● a● the same way were also better in heresy  
¶ But than have I showed before in mine apology, that in heresy that way will not serve. And that have I there proved by the playneste proof that in such manner things any man can make, that is to wit by common open experience/ whereunto this good man of policy would give none ear, but in his answer he hath left it quite out.  
¶ And therein he fareth lo like a geste, that maketh his reckoning himself without his host/ which is therefore after fain to reckon again/ as I shall now bring in here one penny more into this good man's reckoning, which I perceive well himself would very fain forget. Lo thus wrote I further good readers to wching this point in that self same chapter of mine apology folio. 226.  
But yet will peradventure this pacifier say, that sometime in some very special case, he could be content that the spiritual judge should upon hyse discretion call one for suspicion of heresy ex officio/ but he would not have men commonly called, but either by accusation or presentment in their senies or endyghtementes at the common law. I had as life for any thing that I see, that this pacifier should say thus: By this way that they be called I would not have them called/ but I would have them called after such an order as they might be sure that than should they never be called. For as for accuse folk openly for heresy, every man hath experience enough, that ye shall seldom find any man that will/ but if the judge should set an officer of the court thereto without any peril of expenses/ and than were this way and that way all of one effect. And as for presentments and endyghtementes, what effect would come of them concerning heresy, ye see the proof I trow meetly well all ready.  
For this is a thing well known unto every man, that in every seen, every session of peace, every session of jail delivery, every let through the realm, the first thing that the jury have given them in charge is heresy. And for all this, thorough the whole realm how many presentments be there made in the whole year? I ween in some seven year not one. And I suppose no man doubteth, but that in the mean time some there be. I will not be curious about the searching out of the cause, why it is either never or so very seld presented, not five in fifteen year. But this I say that sith some will not, some can not, and none doth/ if he should put away the process ex officio, the thing should be left undone/ and than should soon after with heretics increased and multiplied, the faith be undone/ and after that through the stroke of god revenging their malice and our negligence, should by sedition, & trouble, and dearth, & death, in this realm many men both good and bad be undone. And therefore for conclusion of this piece, my poor advice & counsel shallbe, that for heresy, and specially now this time, men shall suffer the pro●esses ex officio stand/ and for as many other sins also as are only reformable by the spiritual law, except there be any such synnies of them as ye think were good to grow.  
¶ What hath this good man good readers said unto this piece? what shall we good readers say now to this good man? that in this goodly answer of his, which he would were taken for so strong, unto this piece upon which gr●at part of the matter hangeth, saith not so much as mum/ but letteth it ship even by, as though he were one that had as for this point been born deaf & thereby dumb.  
¶ And now concerning this point, I will yet say a little ferther, that in places more than one, good evidence have been given unto questꝭ of plain & open heresy, which yet would not find it/ that would upon much less evidence, have shortly presented felony.  
¶ And one of these matters with the priest the preached it when I was chancellor, was brought unto me by right wurshupfull folk, that before me advowed it in his face. And yet could not all they cause the quest to present it, but some folk bygan to fall to favour him/ & had he not been taken by good worshipful temporal men, many would have flocked after him, & have followed him about for pleasure of his new fashion preaching. And yet for all that flocking, though they had made ii or iii hundred as they should hahpely within a while if a few good men had not letted it: they had been yet but an handful to their good catholic neighbours/ and yet by such flocking together, and following on a plump, they should have seemed in folks eyen far the more part/ and at length peradventure if they went on & were not letted, they might grow to it in deed.  
¶ That pressed I delivered unto his ordinary, and that with good and plain proof of his heresy/ which was in deed soon after that abjured But for this I tell it you, that the jury would not find it for all the good folk that gave them open evidence. And that this is not in one case, nor a thing that happeth seld, as I said in mine apology, plain experience proveth. whereby you may see, that in heresy if the judge should not ex officio proceed, till the matter were presented by the juries: heretics might be bold to proceed on a pace and so they would I warrant you, and multiply full fast.  
¶ And thus you see good readers, that concerning this piece, this good man hath in every point a gr●t overthrow.  
¶ And therefore now the last clause of this xu chapter of his, is clearly wrested awry. For as though he had all proved, wh●re all is disproved: he fynysheth his chapter thus.  
And thus it appeareth, that master More can neither prove the suit Ex. officio to be like to the arrestyn●e of men for suspicion of felony, for good abearing, to putting of men to answer upon indytementes, ne yet to them that may be accused by xii men, and know not of it, and tha● for the causes before remembered. Wherefore it seemeth, that though it were clearly put away, the streets should not swarm full of heretics never a whit.  
¶ This good man saith here I can not prove any of all these thyngeꝭ like. But every man may well see, that list to look back and read it, that there is not any one piece of all these that he speaketh of, but I have very plainly proved it very like, for the purpose & intent that I resemble it for. And this shall every man clearly see, that will advise piece by piece.  
¶ And therefore while upon differences & diversities that he putteth between them, such as let them not to be like in the thing that I liken them for, he boasteth in conclusion that I can not prove them like: I shall show you what thing now this boast of his is like.  
¶ If it had come in this good man's head, to devise a law and write a book therefore, to kill up all the band dogs thorough out all the realm● (wherein his time as unwisely as it were bestowed, had not yet been so ill spent as it hath been in this) and than would lay for the cause, the bandogs do spend victual, & will sometime bite folk to: if I would then write against his wise book, and say that he might by that reason kill up hounded and grayhoundes & all, for they must eat to, and will sometime bite children to/ but likewise yet as they may not yet for all that be forborn, both for the pleasure that they do, and also for that they help to take us some such beasts of venory as men eat, and hunt and kill also such other beasts and vermyn, as else would destroy much victual/ so the band-dogges may not be forborn neither, for they both defend husband men's houses fro thieves, & help folk home with their beasts to sometime, such as would not else come home: now might this good man by this reason that he useth here, writ again & defend his politic device against bandoggꝭ/ & therein answer me thus. first that for defence of folks houses there shall need no bandogs at all/ for men may make their servants watch, or make fast all their doors/ and when the●es would break in, defend their houses themself. And as for such beasts as would not come home, if they be not over heavy they may bear them home/ and those that be to heavy to be borne home, taye ropes to there taylys and draw them home. And than might he say yet a little ferther/ and that is this, that he marveled much that I could for shame and fere of mine own conscience resemble & liken together, gentle hounds or goodly greyhounds, to such ill favoured mastiffs. And than to prove them very far unlike put his dyfferencꝭ & his diversities, and say a mastyff● hath you wot well a great iolte head, & a great mosel & a thick boystuouse body/ where as a greyhound hath a ꝓperhed, with a goodly small long snout, & fair long slender sydꝭ/ & the houndꝭ yet much less like  
¶ And thereupon might he there conclude (as he now concludeth here) and say thus.  
¶ And thus it appeareth that master More can neither prove the mastyfes to be like to the greyhounds, nor to the other gentle hounds neither, and that for the causes before remembered. wherefore it seemeth that though all bandogs and mastiffs were clearly put away: yet men's houses should be defended well enough, and their beasts brought home well enough to, so they should so.  
¶ Now if he rially triumphed upon this, and thought he had avoided me well: I could no farther go therein in good faith, but let him take that glory to him. And surely with any wise man that readeth over here in this chapter, both his words and mine, and one after another considereth wherefore I resemble them together: shall find I dare boldly warrant, that with his dyfferencꝭ and his diversities, he winneth like worship in this.  
¶ But now to turn again as I promised to the first point, that is to wit his devise of open accusers: consider well this good christian reader, that where as this good man in his book of division, where he would have the suit ex officio left of: he then reserved us yet both open accusations and presentments, to put heretics to answer upon. But now in this xu chapter of his, in his book of Salem & Bizance, for favour toward the catholic faith, he deviseth no more against heretics but open accusers alone/ and sayeth that open accusers shall sufficiently serve the matter. And unto that here that I say, and that every man seeth, that no man will in heresy make himself a party by way of open accusing: thereto saith this good man nothing.  
¶ He seeth pardie very well, that in many things foreboden by sundry statutes for the comen weal, as against the great excess of apparel and some such other things: the law doth invyte and hire every man to th'accusing of the brekers of the same by giving them the tone half of the forfaytoure. And yet for all that as long & as many laws, & as sore as have been made against such excess of apparel, and as much as some men might have won by the suit: yet how few folk have been founden that have taken those actions and thereby accused those offenders, the kings courts can declare, and the little amendment may show.  
¶ Ryottes be open things and enquyrable, with pains also set upon the concelours, yet many great riots go by unfound & the concelours never spoken of/ & a statut was there fain to be made, that it might be pursued, & punished by the kings counsel without presentment, and that even by suit in manner ex officio to. For though the parties that made the riot, and the party upon whom it was made, were so well agreed again, that neither nother would by their wills have the matter moved or any more spoken of it: yet may the kings counsel upon secret information, cause the kings attorney to make a bill of the riot, and put the parties to answer, and send for what witnesses they will.  
¶ Now this man will not be so mad I trow to lay me for a defference, that in the suit ex officio there is none accuser, and that here the kings attorney is. For as I have said before if the spiritual court should assign in like wise an office of their own without either apparel or cost; what would that avail the party?  
¶ If this good man had therefore devised rewards for accusers, & great pains of forfaytours for them that would conceyle and hide: yet would not all that have helped well the matter in heresies. And weeneth he then that his bare device of open accusers alone, neither compelled nor hyr●d, will help it? Nay not and take endytementes and presentments to them, with pains set upon the conceylours to.  
¶ And this hath all chrys●endome good christian readers perceived/ and therefore in every good christian country, do they use the same suit of office (which upon a light reason this man calleth unreasonable) and have used many long years. This law also which this good man thus impugneth upon his own unreasonable reason, was thought a law right reasonable as I told you in a general counsel at Rome there holden by pope Innocent the third and many great wise & well learned virtuous men there at. There were thambassadors of all the realms and countries chrystened/ & among other thambassadors of England. There were thembassiatoursambassadors of both the emperors, that is to wit almain & Grece. There were also the four great patriarches/ that is to wit the patriarch of Antiochia, & the patriarch of Alexandria by their deputies/ & the patriarch of Constantinople, & the patriarch of Jerusalem in their own proper persons. In this great full & whole counsel of christendom, was this law agreed & approved. And from the first making all christian countries received it/ & have by the continual v●e ever sins allowed it. And this realm hath found it so necessary, that by statutes it hath strengthened it. And all true christen countries to this day still observe it/ nor no country hath there any where left & forsaken it, except such places only as have left and forsaken the faith of Chryst/ with all whose ensamples I trust this realm is to faithful to follow, upon such good reason as this good man here bringeth/ whereof the very whole sum when it is gathered together, a mounteth to no more, but that it may some time happen, that an innocent may take harm thereby/ a reason that once received, may suffer no law to stand. For what law can he give so made in all this world, whereby none innocent can possibly take hurt? But here you see plainly proved against this good man, that by the changing, there would surely follow another manner of peril, the decay of the catholic faith by thencouraging of heretics/ which would be well content that we made laws to burn them twice when they be proved heretics, so that the good counsel of this good man be followed, that the suit ex officio may be changed into such open accusers, as in seven year shall never one come forth, nor one heretic of likelihood ones be put to answer/ with another good counsel of this good man's also devised for their farther saufegard against arresting of them, whereof we be to speak afterward in another chapter. Say this good man what he will, if we break this law so long approved thorough christendom, and take his devise in the stead: his word will neu●r so stay the thing, but that after his ways ones taken, and by his new evil counsel the good old laws broken, men should shortly see without any doubt great increase of heretics/ which, where as they were wont but to creep together in corners, and secretly skulk together in lurks lavys, shall soon wax bold and put out their horns and flock and swarm together so thick in thopen s●retes, that such mischief would finally follow thereon, as woe will every good man be that should live to see it. And yet would god of his goodness turn at length the chief harm upon their heads. But better folk should first feel so much thereof, that it were better for both, that by these good laws well kept which this good man would break, these heretics be well repressed, and kept under by times.   

The xvi chapyter.  
HIs xvi chapter begynn●th in the liiii leaf, wherein he first reciteth again his own words written in his book of division wherein he disputed against the law in the chapter Accusatus, perag. Licet, whereby it is ordained that though one being accused & sworn confess nothing, and yet afterward he confesseth both of himself and other, such things as it may well appear, that if he were not forsworn in the second, he was forsworn in the first, and yet that law there admitteth him for a witness in the same court and in that matter of heresy, if there appear manifest tokens that he doth it not of lightness of mind, nor of hatred, nor for other corruption/ which he saith is therefore a dangerous law, and more like to cause untrue and unlawful men to condemn innocentes, then to condemn offenders.  
¶ And you shall understand good readers, that in his book of division, he not only did impugn the law that he speaketh of here/ but also another chapter In fidei favorem, because that thereby such as are accursed, & such as are parties to the same offence, shallbe witness in heresy.  
¶ This reason of his good reader, all be it that me then thought and yet think so unreasonable, that I r●kened it little worth the answering, as a reason reproved by the comen law & by the course & usage of all realms chrystened, and in other crimes bysyde heresy playnesy reproved, and the contrary well used in this realm here also: yet in the xli chapter of mine apo logi● fo. cc.xxviii in this manner wise I answered him.  
This piece concerning the testimony of known evil persons to be received and taken in heresy/ I have somewhat touched in the third chapter of the third book of my dialogue/ where sith they may read it that will, I will make here no long tale again thereof. But well he woteth that heresy, whereby a christian man becometh a false traitor to god is in all laws spiritual and temporal both, accounted as great a crime as is the treason committed against any worldly man. And then why should we find so great a fault, that such witness should be received in a cause of heresy, as are received not only in a cause of treason, but of murder also, and of other more single felony/ not only in favour of the prince, and detestation of such odious crimes, but also for the necessity which the nature of the matter worketh in the proof. But sith evil folk use not to make good folk of counsel in doing of their evil deeds/ those that are done, should pass unpunished, and more like be committed a fresh, but if they were received for records to their condemning, that were of their counsel and perteners to the doing. which kind of folk will not let to swear twice nay, before they confess once ye/ and yet their one ye more true upon their bare word, then their twice nay upon a solemn o'th'/ and yet confess they not so simply, but that it is commonly helped with some such circumstances as make the matter more clear.  
¶ Now as to those things that I wrote in my dialogue concerning great crymynouse witnesses to be taken in great criminal causes, he answereth with no word at all. How be it to say the troth he the less needed. For he giveth over here, all that fault that he found in the chapter In fidei favorem, as a things wherein himself seeth now that he was overseen then and therefore he setteth that here pass by, as though he had never spoken thereof, and sticketh only upon that one case of him that is one's forsworn.  
¶ But now let us see what he saith here concerning this self same case. first he saith that the laws, though they must devise such waysas evil persons may be punished: yet the makers of the laws must (as much as in them is) provide that innocentes shallbe saved harmless. This is very true as much as in them is/ the t'other point being provided for to, that offenders may be punished. But then say I that it is not in all the wits of the world, for punishment of mischievous wretches, to devise a saw in such wise, that men may be sure that none innocent can take harm thereby. And then if he grant me this (which whither he grant or no, yet very true it is) then say I that his only reason against the suit ex officio, and against this law to, that is to wit that innocentes may take harm thereby, if such a reason that if it were followed in every law where by mysseguyded folk are punyssed, there should no law stand for their punyshenent at all, but lest it might miss hap that some innocent might take harm, we should let all mischievous folk alone, & thereby suffer many more good innocent men take harm.  
¶ But then goeth this good man ferther & saith that the punishment of an offender must be by a dew & a reasonable order. And that is very true also/ & therefore we shall agree well in that. But than goth he ferther and saith, I can not see what dew or reasonable order of trial it is that he that upon his oath hath first cleared himself & h●s neighbour of heresies, sholbe after contrary to his first oath, be received again as a witness, to condemn him that he clerid before, and that in the same court, and in the same matter.  
¶ Though this good man can not see it: other men can see it/ and have seen it, & daily do see it to well enough. I have seen such things as this is myself proved, I can not tell how often, that in the excuse of a thief some have taken an oath, that the fellow was with him in his own house at such time as the felony should be done in another place. And a man would have went he had been credible and said troth. And yet afterward hath himself confessed that the feson and himself also were at the robbery both twain/ and his bare word then more true, then before was his solemn oath. And every man that hath medeled much with such examinations, hath a sure experience, that this is a comen fashion of murderers and thiefs and such as are thiefs receivers/ of whom at the first face some seem honest men, & are so some time reputed, and come forth for declaration of them that are suspected and in trouble, and depose for them/ and yet after upon some other occasion in examining of the matter, begin to be suspected themself, and afterward confess it to, both of themself and them whom they came to clear by their perjury before. And I am very sure there be not a few that have herd such evidence, given in causes of felony diverse times to the jury.  
¶ But hereupon because I spoke in mine apology of such witnesses in felony: this good man maketh here adjute/ what manner witnesses I mean/ whither I mean the xii men that are the jury, or other witnesses that are brought into the court for to inform them. And than first if I mean the xii men, than he answereth me certain things, to show that he can skill of the law. But verily as for me, I shall put him out of that doubt, that I meant not them. For I never took the xii men for witnesses in my life. For why should I call them witnesses, whose verdycte the judge taketh for a sure sentence concerning the fact, without any examination of the circumstances, whereby they know or be led to believe their verdict to be true?  
¶ And also wherefore should I mean to call them witnesses, whom I see desire witnesses at the bar to inform them in the matter, as wytnessys inform a judge? He might therefore have spared his labour in the pyece well enough. For I neither meant that jury, nor never took them for witness.  
¶ If he will ask me what they be than: I say they be the jury. And if he will wit furthermore what person they represent of those that are unsuall in other courts wherein there be no juries used: than can I meetly well tell him to if the tale were as necessary as it would be long.  
¶ But than cometh he to the other part and saith, And if master More by that term, witness, mean such witness, as be sometime brought into the kings courts, to give evydencies to an ●nque●t, than to that witness no such witness, as the witness been in the spiritual court, that shall acquy●e or condemn the parties: for of those witness so brought into the kings court to give evidence to an ●nqueste at the common law, no mention shall be made in the records, ne the jury be not bound always to follow though witness. For if the jury of their own knowledge or otherwise know the troth against the saying of such witness, they be bou●den to find according to the troth, and let though witness go. And yet if it ha●ned, that such collateral witness first testified upon their oath, that the party were not guilty: and after it were informed the judges, that they revoked their first saying, and would say that the party were guilty: I can not think, that the judges would any more call them to here their saying therein. And though they would, yet as I said before, it were far unlike to this case. For their saying there, is but as an evidence, which the jury should not be bound to believe, but as the truth is. I can not see therefore, how master More can prove his saying, that such witnesses, that is to say, such as be perjured in ●he same court, should be afterward received as witness in any of the kings courts.  
¶ Now good readers ever more remember this, that it is not enough for him that will avoid a resemblance between two things, it is not enough I say for him to prove that in some points those two things are unlike/ (for so must every two things needs be, for else were they not two but one) but he must prove that they be unlike in the self same point wherein, and to the self same purpose wherefore, they were so resembled together.  
¶ And now I say that in that point for that purpose for which I resemble them, I say that they be like. I did not say that they were like in the manner of the examination, and putting of their names and their depositions in the record, in which things this man saith & I confess that they be unlike/ but I said that they were like in this point, that like as he that hath been sworn and cleared one as far forth as in him was of heresy, may yet be received swell again & herd, and by his new contrary deposition may hurt the same party whom he did clear, before the same spiritual judge, which lawfully may give credence unto him upon certain circumstances by his wisdom well weighed/ so may in like wise he that hath been sworn, and by his oath cl●red a man as much as in him was of felony, be yet received and sworn again and herd, and by his new contrary deposition may hurt the same party whom he did before clear in a temporal court, before the self same judges/ by the reason that the jury may lawfully believe him in the second oath, upon certain considerations by their wysedoms wisely weighed, notwithstanding his former oath in the same court to the contrary.  
¶ And all be it that here before I thought upon no further than upon such witnesses taken before the kings counsel, or justices of the peace men of worship in the country, & afterward those deposycyous with such contrary ohtes and all the circumstances therewith given in evidence to the jury at the bar, in the face of the kings ordinary court, sitting upon the deliverance of the prisoner: yet sith this good man dissymuleth that point, and draweth me forth before the judges, I am well content to wait upon him thither. And I nothing doubt but that even there he should, the case might so fall, find it true that I tell him.  
¶ That is not so saith this good man. For if it happened that such collateral witnesses, first testified upon their oath that the party were not guilty/ and after it were informed the judges that they revoked their first saying, and would say that the party were guilty: I can not think that the judges would any more call them to here their saying therein.  
¶ Here you see good readers that he proveth this point by none other thing, than only by his own thinking. Now albe it that against his thinking that they would not, it were enough for me to say that I think they would: yet will I not leave it so bare, but I will show some cause wherefore in some case they should/ & I will also put you some such case, which if the case happened I nothing doubt but they would.  
¶ first the cause wherefore a person once perjured is repelled from bearing witness again, is because the law presumeth that he setteth not so much by an oath, but that his oath notwithstanding he were likely enough to lie.  
¶ Now sith this presumption is the general let, and therefore the reason of the general law: if the case happen that this presumption be more than countrepaysed with a contrary presumption upon the other s●de, there is that contrary presumption a reason sufficient, to make in that case a contrary law, or a law that shallbe for that case an exception out of that general rule.  
¶ Now sir as he that on his oath cl●reth himself & his fellow to, either in heresy or in felony, doth after confess & swear also the contrary: if we would not believe him in the second oath, because we find him thereby perjured in the first/ than in that we judge him in the first to have sworen false, it implieth that even thereby we judge him in the second to say true.  
¶ If he will refuse his second oath, and not think him worthy to be believed, because that he swore the contrary before, & thereby presume him a false shrew when he should by the second oath prove himself once perjured, and than we could not tell in whither oath of the twain: here I say the first presumption is over borne with the second. For it is an other presumption that no man will cast away his soul for nought. And yet a greater presumpsyon that no man will cast away his soul, to do hurt either to his own body or to his friends.  
¶ Now look me than up this man's two oaths, his first oath and his secund. And though there be a common presumption therein also, whereupon the credence of all oaths resteth, that is to wit that a man reputed good & honest, will not for his friends body nor for his own neither, cast his soul away by perjury: yet when himself after showeth upon his second oath, that he was perjured in the first, the presumption of his troth in his first oath, is taken away by the second.  
¶ Now the second if it be to th'accusing of himself & his friend both, whom his first oath excused, hath these other two presumptions for to bear against the first presumption general of his untruth for his perjury. The tone, that though it be presumed in the law, that he would be false and forsworn for somewhat: yet is it presumed that he will not be forsworn for right nought. And yet as I said it is more strongly presumed that he will not be forsworn to the hurt of himself and his friend. And therefore hath his second oath enough to bear it against the first, sith in the first he swore for his friends advantage and his own, for which (sith he now appeareth false in the tone oath or the t'other) he was than likely to be forsworn. And in the second if he were forsworn, it were to their both harm. And therefore is that oath presumed to be true, though the man himself be presumed false.  
¶ This is I trow to no man any doubt, but● that though a man had been openly perjured thrice: yet if the world might (as it may not) be sure that in another matter he would for all that swear true, the world would receive his oath. Now for as much as of no man's o'th' any man can be so sure, but that he may be by possibility deceived: the law goth as far forth as it can, and taketh their oaths for a proof, which are in that case by presumption likely to swear true. And sith that he therefore whom the respect of his friends saufgarde & his own, gave occasion to be forsworn in the first, in the second sweareth contrary wise to their both apparel & harm: therefore in the case reason beareth the law, that in such heyghnous crimes his second oath should be received.  
¶ Here have I showed you a reason which seemeth me sufficient, that both in heresy and felony, the judges should be content not withstanding the first oath, in some case to suffer him swear the contrary.  
¶ But now for the temporal courts, let us put some case for a sample, to see whither the judges would if the case happened so, here the witness again or not  
¶ I will not put the case in treason, wherein th●re would I ween be no doubt/ but that if after his evidence given upon his oath in clering there the prisoner, he happened even suddenly there at the bar to repent himself, & say that he was hired to be forsworn, & that he was forsworn in deed, & than would tell another tale far contrary to the first, ere ever he went fro the bar: would his tale not be herd trow you? yes and (the jury so desiring as peradventure they would the judges would swear him to I suppose/ and very good reason would bear it that they should.  
¶ But as I say let treason go, and come but even unto felony. If two or three witnesses would at the bar excuse upon their oaths some one man of felony/ and afterward when they were stepped fro the bar happened to be heard rowne and rejoice together, that they had given good evidence for acquytayle of their fellow, with whom themself had been at the same robbery: if they were suddenly brought again to the judges, the jury not yet departed fro the bar/ and being severally questioned in that sudden abashment, saying that god had so uttered their falsehood, began to have remorse and came forth with the troth, and agreed in the cyrcumstaunces and told all one tale, confessing both the prisoner & themself guilty, and would be content to swear that this tale were true contrary to the oath that they swore there before: would not the judges trow you give them the hearing? yes yes I doubt not, and the jury to.  
¶ And thus you see clearly good readers, that in this point if this man had wisely wrought, he should have given it over.  
¶ And now albe it that here I might end this chapter, and have no need at all to go any ferther: yet to the ferther opening, how little hold there is in the causes that he layeth of dyssymilitude & unlikeness, between the wytnessys brought into a spiritual court, & the witnesses brought in to the temporal for information of the jury/ I marvel much if himself know not that like as the jury may if they see cause why, way the witnesses at light, and quite the prisoner for all the witnesses words, so may the ordinary do to. For in his estimation the power lieth, to way and consider the qualities of the witnesses/ and all such other circumstances as may minish or increase their credence.  
¶ Ye and unto the other side, the witnesses are not in the temporal courts weighed and esteemed so light, but that the jury shall if they believe them not, be sometime drevyn to yield a good reckoning why. For though the words of the wytnestes be not entered in the record, yet in attaint they shall again be given in evidence against the petyt jury, and testify by the court and by the oaths of them that before heard them depose.  
¶ And then if it appear unto the grand jury in their conscience, that the petyt jury wilfully of some corrupt mind regarded not the witnesses, and therefore in the giving of their verdycte passed against their own conscience: every man well woteth that they shallbe attainted.  
¶ And necessity hath also driven the kings grace & his counsel for the sure punishment of felons, to provide that if the jury likewise regard the witnesses so slightly, that the judges think they quite the fellow against their own conscience: they bind them sometime to appear before the kings counsel. And there have there diverse juries been proved so to have mysseused themself therein, that they have been punished therefore.  
¶ Now will I good readers come unto that piece, which (as a thing all ready confuted & of itself unworthy to be touched) I would have passed over & not once vowchsafed to write one word therein, saving that I see him to have taken such labour thereabout, that he seemeth to ween that he hath defended it well/ which whither he have well defended or not, yourself shall good readers judge.  
These were his words in his book of division.  
This is a dangerous law, and more like to caus● untrue and unlawful men to condemn innocente● then to condemn offenders. And it helpeth little, that if there be tokens, that it is not done of hatred nor for corruption of money: that it should be taken: for sometime a wolf may show himself in the apparel of a lamb. And if the judge be par●yall, such tokens may be sone● accepted then truly showed.  
¶ To this piece these were my words in mine apology folio. 229.  
Sith evil folk use not to make good folk of their counsel in doing of their evil deeds/ those that are done, should pass unpunished, & more like be committed a fresh, but if they were received for records to their condemning, that were of their counsel and partners to the doing. which kind of folk will not let to swear twice nay before they confess once ye/ and yet their one ye more true upon their bare word, than their twice nay upon a solemn o'th'/ and yet confess they not so simply, but that it is commonly helped with some such circumstances as make the matter more clear.  
Now see you well that as himself showeth, the law provideth well against all light receiving of such confession. And yet this pacifier saith that all that helpeth little, because the judge may be partial, and the witness may be a wolf, showing himself appareled in the apparel of a lamb, which appearing in apparel, poor men that can not apparel their speech with apparel of retoryke, use commonly to call a wolf in a lambs skin.  
But what order may serve against such objections? what place is there in this world spiritual or temporal, of which the judge may not have some say that he is, or at the lest wise (as he saith here) may be partial? And therefore not only such witness should be by this reason of his rejected in heresy, treason, murder, or felony/ but also by his other reason of a wolf in a lambs skin, all manner of witness in every matter. For i every matter may it hap, that he that seemeth a lamb, may be in deed a wolf/ and be nought where he seemeth good/ & swear false where he seemeth to say true. And therefore this patch of this pacifier concerning witness/ every wise man may bear witness that there is little wit therein/ and less good would grow thereof, if folk would follow his invention, and make of the laws a change.  
¶ Now that you have good readers h●rd what we say both before. Now shall you see how substantially this man defendeth his first words again. These are so in this xvi. chapter of his new book his words.  
Now by reason of this objection I will speak somewhat father in this matter, than I did in the said treatise. And first I will say thus, that if is to me a great marvel, to see master More so fair overseen, or el●ys if he be not o●●rseen therein, that then he would if he could, deceive other and make them so far overseen, to believe that it should be one like reason of a perjured witness, that will look like a lamb, and say contrary to that he hath deposed before, and of a witness that cometh to depose in a matter that he was never yet sworn upon. For when a witness is brought in, that was never sworn upon the matter before/ the judge may not by the law refuse him, nor judge any default in him/ whiles he know a sufficient cause himself in that behalf/ or that the parties do allege it: but he must believe/ that he is honest, good and indyff●rent/ till the contrary be showed/ as every man is in charity bound to do of his neighbour. But when a witness hath deposed in the court/ and than will offer him sel●e to depo●e to the contrary that he said before: the judge may with good conscience mistrust and think, that he doth it of lightness of mind, hatred, or for corruption of money.  
¶ If I were in this point overseen, I need not greatly to be ashamed of the oversight. For than hath there been many such other men overseen also, as I would not wish to be wiser. And I no more intend to deceive other men in this matter, than many other have intended, that used and allowed this thing that I defend now before/ such men as with the condition that I were never worse, I would never wish to be better. This man maketh as though it were great shame for me, to liken together a person once perjured, and a person that was never yet ones sworen. I would in deed be a shamed to liken them together in every point, all though there were no more difference between them, but that the tone had a long nose and the other a short. But I am not much ashamed to say that for some purpose, where he speaketh of the tone I may speak of the t'other, and liken them well enough together. For I may say (as I said) that like wise as he that hath for sworen himself, may fain himself to say true, and look like a lamb, and yet be a wolf in deed: even so I say may he that never was sworen before.  
¶ Ye saith this man, but yet these two be not like. For he that was never sworn, there is no cause to mistrust nor presume that he will play the wolf in a lambs skin. But he that hath been forsworn, is of reason to be mistrusted/ and it is to be presumed, that he will play the wolf in a lambs skin.  
¶ Mark yet in the mean while, that if I could make no father answer: yet had I won and he lost. For his first words were in his book of division, that he that confesseth himself forsworn, should in no case be received to swear again the contrary/ because that though there seem a good cause to believe him in his second oath, yet it may be that he doth but fain/ and I said so may he to fain and dissemble, that never was sworen before. And then if the only power and ability to fain, were a cause sufficient to put any ove man from bearing witness upon his oath: every man were by reason repelled/ for every man is able to fain. This was as you see the thing that I then said. Which thing neither this manner any man else is able to confute, nor prove the forsworn man and the man unsworens unlike in the point that I likened them/ that is to wit in power and ability to fain. And farther than that, went not I. For I had no farther cause in answering him there, while he went no farther there, nor said none other, but that he that was forsworn may fain. And now read yourself his words, and look whither I say true.  
¶ But now this being proved as it is proved plain, that he hath a fall in those words which he spoke before: let us a little se whither with this leisure after his matter again considered a fresh, he have caught any better hold now. And surely me thinketh not one whit.  
¶ For where his new reason rests in this, that he which confesseth himself once forsworn, is by reason mistrusted, as one not only to be able to swear false, and wilily cloak his falsehood under a colour of truth, but also presumed that he so will do in deed: to this I say that he sayeth truth, as long as there is no greater presumption on the other side to serve for his second oath. But when the case happeth that there is, as it happeth in the case of this law: than is the presumption that he will swear false gone, as I showed you before.  
And then that presumption by a greater presumption being purged: this man foworn and the man unsworn are in the thing that I resembled them for, waxed well like again. And that the said presumption is purged: I showed you before, in that it is now a greater presumption for his second oath, that he will not forswear himself, to the apparel of his friend and himself to.  
¶ Then goeth he farther, and enforceth his reason with the reason of the law before the peragraph Licet was made. And therein thus he saith.  
In so much that before that parag. Licet was made the judge might none otherwise have done of justice, but to have refused to have taken any farther examination of him. And if he had, and the other had said contrary to that he had said before: hy● saying had been void in the law.  
¶ And this thing wherewith he thinketh his reason made the s●renger, maketh his reason a great deal feebler. For while the general rule of refusing such witness in all cases, was made so long before: it appeareth plainly that necessity found the fault, and caused out of the general rule this case to be made an exception/ and so the law made by better delyberation.  
¶ And in such other horrible crimes, the same law is used in temporal courtis, and was also before that law made by the church.  
¶ But against all this yet, this man maketh me this reason.  
what the makers of the said peragragh meant, to put into the discretion of the judge, that if he saw by evident tokens that it is not done of lightness of mind, nor of hatred, nor for corruption of money, that his saying shall stand as well against himself as against other: I can not tell. For I can not see how there can be any evident token in any such case, but that there might be in such a perjured witness sometime inward hatred or corruption that the judge can not know, so that he can not judge of certainty that there ye none.  
¶ Consider now good readers that all the strength of this reason hangeth in this, that the judge can not surely see sometime, whether the perjured witness do it for the troth, or have an hatred in his breast so secret that the judge can not see it, & therefore he can not certainly judge that he hath none. Consider here now that he saith not that it is presumed, or must be presumed, that the perjured witness hath so/ (for if he so said, he should say to no purpose. For as I have showed you how that presumpcyou may be over weighed with greater presumptions to the contrary) but he sayeth that it may be in deed, that the forsworn witness hath so. And then say I yet again, if we go to the possibility of the deed, and not unto the presumption and lykelyked/ he that was never sworn before, may have a secret hatred which the judge can not see, as well as he may that was twice sworn before. And thereon I say also yet again, that if the judge were charged to give no sentence but such as he knew of certainty sure to be true: he could never upon any witnesses in this world give any sentence at all. For no witness were there but he might swear false & the judge might ween he swore true.  
¶ Now if this man would say that he meaneth no farther certainty, then only a sure thinking in the judges own conscience, and that therefore he modered all his other words (with this word conscience, saying that the judge could not with conscience judge of certainty that there were no hatred: this meaning were a very marring of all that he goeth about there to prove. For though the periued witness might have (and happily had in deed a secret hatred in his own breast, as an other witness might have (& happily had in deed) that never was sworn before: yet might the judge being induced by certain tokens & lykelyhedes have a sure & a certain ꝑsuasyon & belief in his own conscience, that neither the tone nor the other had any hatred at the time, but only deposed the troth. And therefore if he would say that he meant thus: he marred all his matter.  
¶ But it appeareth plain that he meant in the other manner upon which there must needs follow (if he were not in his saying deceived) that every judge in every sentence that he should give upon any witnesses, were they never so honest in appearance, were in a danger inevy table. And that he means in that manner, that the belief of his own conscience iuduced reasonably thereto, could not excuse the judge if he were deceived and the thing other wise in deed: he declareth farther by the words that next ensue, where he goeth farther thus.  
And therefore me seemeth that the makers of the said peragraph laid over great a danger to the judges, that they should have liberty to accept if they would the saying of him that so offereth himself against his first oath/ for so much as the judge can not be sure to save his conscience therein, but if he clearly refuse to accept any thing that the witness would say contrary to his first oath. For if the judge did otherwise, & thereupon the witnesses testify against the party, & yet the party not guilty in deed: I suppose verily that the judge were party to the same offence.  
¶ And I suppose not the contrary, but am very sure of the contrary. For I am very sure, that where the judge seeth such tokens as seem unto him manifest and open tokens, to prove that his second oath is not offered of any corrupt effection, but of remor●e of his perjury and of a mind to amend his fault and say true: he falleth in no danger of conscience, though the truth be otherwise in deed. For if there never had law been made at all to refuse any witness because he was ones perjured: the judge had been clear at liberty upon reasons & lekelyhedes leading his conscience, to have received him again with out any peril of his own conscience at all, where so ever himself had thought greater lykelyhed that he would say troth at the second oath, than he did before at the first. And then sith he was now letted to receive him, and his liberty therein restrained but by a law made: what apparel can he more fall in when a second law hath set him at large, then if the formare law had never made the restraint.  
¶ Also where the law there provideth, that the judge shall still reject that witness, which offereth to tell the troth upon a second oath contrary to his first, but if there appear manifest tokens that he do it not of any corrupt effection: it meaneth none other but that if the tokens seem such unto the judge, that they induce him in his conscience so to believe & think and not that he shallbe certain & sure that the thing is so in deed, by looking into the secret corners of the man's heart/ no more than the kings judges at the comen law, by what words so ever they give thinquest an oath, nor by what precise words so ever they receive their verdycte, mean not to charge them upon apparel of their souls to say none other wise then the truth of the thing shall be in deed/ but as the truth shall seem to them to be, upon such things as they shall perceive either by the evidence given them at the bar, or otherwise ere they came there. Nor the judges themself in the judging of a matter of law, never mean precisely that the law is so. For then if other judges after reversed that judgement or judged the same case otherwise in another time between other men, the tone judges or the t'other had put their souls in apparel, doing both twain their best to judge as well as they could.  
¶ But sith no man can see farther than his eyen will serve him, no nor no man can see farther than his own reason can upon the matter thoroughly debated perceive: if either the xii men or the judges, neither negligent nor corrupt, judge as they think true, their souls are safe enough/ as safe as is the soul of the carpenter, that putteth in his frame no timber but such as is good & sound as far as men can see/ and yet some of it secretly may be such in very deed, as soon after shall fail and fall down all the roof. His soul is safe enough, though his purse may hap to sweet, if he bound himself to provide the timber at his own apparel. But so bindeth himself neither judge nor jury for the witness on apparel of their own souls, that the t'other shall swear true.  
¶ And thus you see good readers that the judge is out of apparel, using diligence and troth, though the witness be false and have hatred in his heart/ where the judge weeneth none upon tokens that he thinketh manifest, all though the witness were forsworn before. And thus is this good man in this matter all gone quite awry.  
¶ But yet being sore troubled with the wild wolf, that may swear false and seem true, nothing mistrusted bycase he cometh lapped in a lambs skin: this good man goeth further yet and therein thus he saith.  
And where I said in the said treatise, as before appeareth, that sometime a wolf may show himself in the apparel of a lamb, and that if the judge be partial, such tokens may sooner be accepted then truly showed: If is evident enough, that by those words I note no judge to be partial, but I say that if the judge be partial, such tokens may be ●o●ner accepted then truly showed. As who saith, the judge may accept such a token to be true, though there appete some suspicion of untruth in the witness. In which acceptance he shall more liberally and without offence of the law do wrong to the party that is accused/ then he could do by accepting of any other witness against the law, that were never sworn before. For if he accept any such witness contrary to the rules of the law, it appeareth to all them that know the law, that he doth against the law therein: and that will sound somewhat to his rebuke, and that will make him the more loath to do it. But if the judge accept such a perjured witness where there is no sufficient token to prove that he doth it not for lightness of mind, hatred, corruption, nor such other: yet he breaketh no law therein. For all is committed to his discretion. And that may haply give a boldness to some judge to accept such a perjured witness where he ought not to accept him. And though the ●ayde Peragr. say that if there be such tokens as before appeareth, that then in favour of the faith his witness shall be taken: yet I can not see, if the party accused be guiltless in deed, as he may be for all that witness, how it can be taken in favour of the faith, to accept the witness. For it can not be said in favour of the faith to condemn an innocent.  
¶ All this tale when it is all told, weigheth unto no more, but that if the judge be partial, than he may abuse the law, and than that law in that case may do harm in heresy.  
¶ Now beside that the quest hearing the same witness sworn first, and after contrary, may if they be partial, do like harm in felony: what law was there ever made, wherein the judge could do none harm if he would be partial? what laws may there serve, if the mynystres would be false? This man is content that to a man's condemnation, the presumption shall serve that the witnesses will swear but true, such witnesses at the lest wise as are not proved false before/ and yet may they mar all if they be false a●d parcyall. And when he presumeth such indyfferencye in a witness: why feareth he so sore partiality in a judge? if he say he mistrust the judges, because of some Some says: ●hanne must he mistrust witnesses, juries, and judges, and all together. For such Some says there lack not that can say well by no man.  
¶ This reason of his doth but put a suspicion in men's heads against the judges, for every thing that is put in their discretion. But surely (●s I have often hard that great wise and right wursshypefull man sire Iohn Fineu● say, late chief justice of the kings bench) who so taketh from a justice the order of his discretion, taketh surely from him more than half his office. If this realm should mistrust justices: it must in the laws than make many such changes, as I never saw need yet, nor trust I never shall. What harm might any justice of the peace do, if he were disposed to be false and partial? And ever shall be able to do make what laws men will, but if men would utterly put a way that office And than in stead of one harm that may hap, we shall have an hundred hap in very deed.  
¶ Consider also good readers, that by the laws afore made, there was not only forbode to bear witness, he that appeared to be ones forsworn, but also many other manner of cryminouse persons, for the general presumption that they were unworthy credence/ and yet have been by other laws after made, received to bear witness against themself & their fellows in heresy & in ●reason both, for the necessity as I have said and upon presumptions more probable that they were in that case well likely to swear true.  
¶ Now if this good man for fere of such harm as may by possibility fall upon an innocent, will put one of these from witnessing: he must repel them all. For as the latter laws have synnies received all: so the former laws generally did first refuse them all. For the general rule is naturally before his particular exceptions.  
¶ And than if he would in likewise repel them all, than for one harm that may hap, and happily never shall: he should have many myschyevouse people very bold, while they might be sure they must needs pass unpunished, because their privy mischief could never well be proved, but if they would when they went about it, take honest men with them to bear record of it.  
¶ And thus you see good readers very clear and plain, that this good man hath hitherto brought you forth no reason. And I think he saw that himself/ and therefore he though he would say better at last, and not leave it so. For then goeth he ferther and sayeth.  
And furthermore it appeareth also, that the words of the said treatise e●tende no fe●ther, but to such as be judges, where there is before them such a perjured witness, and not to all judges. And in likewise those words, that a w●●●e may show him se●●e in the apparels of a lamb, sitetche only to such a perjured witness. For there is no other witness spoken of in the said treatise in that place.  
¶ This man goeth to his words and forg●tteth what I say/ which is that though his words go no ferther, yet the reason of his words (if it were reason as I have proved it none) would stretch so far farther that it would mar all. And this point have I proved you very clear and plain.  
And thereby is meant, that such a perjured witness may haply show himself to deny that he said before, of a compuncte heart and of a new knowledge of the truth, and of a very zeal unto the ●ayth: and yet do it in deed of covetise, falsehood, rancour, and malice to the party. And so as the gospel saith, he may hap outward to appear in the apparel of a sheep, and within forth be a romping wolf. And such one may that perjured witness be, that i● spoken of in the said treatise. And of such a witness in heresy the said treatise speaketh only there and of none other witness, as to the readers will appear. And therefore as me seemeth, master More findeth default in this behalf, where he had no cause reasonable so to do.  
¶ Now good readers where as this man sayeth, that he meant that such a forsworn witness may happily play the wolf in a lambs skin: I grant that he meant so. But as I grant that to him: so must he grant this again to me, that so may he play to, that was never sworn before. And than while he goeth no ferther, but that the tone happily may, and can not himself say nay but that the t'other happily may so to: there followeth upon that the thing that I said before, which this man saith he marveleth much that I would say, that is to wit, that by that wise reason there should be received in such crimynall causes, no manner witness at all.  
¶ Now if he leave his may happily and say that it is likely, that the forsworn witnesses will say false, and the other true that never was swo/ ren before/ and that the witness one's forsworn afore, is in his second oath contrary to his first, more likely to play the wily wolf in the lambs skin, than such a plain simple man as was never sworn before: I will be so bold for this one's as in some case to tell him boldly nay. For where he said a little afore, that he could not see how there could be any such evident token in any such case, but that such a perjured witness might do it of a secret hatred, and seem chartable, and so play the wily wolf in the simple lambs skin: I can see well enough, that in some case there may be an evident token, that some such witness as was so first forsworn, were after in his second oath swearing the contrary, less likely to lie & play the wily wolf in the lambs skin, than were an other that never was in his life before neither forsworn nor sworen.  
¶ For if he that was before upon his o●h examined both of himself & his son, or of himself & his father, or his other special known friend, & on his oath cleared them all, do at an other time upon a new oath confess them all guilty, and himself also/ and where peradventure himself must to the fire, because he was abjured before, & they may turn yet in time & be but abjured: were not this an evident token that he doth it not of any secret hatred, nor playeth not the wily wolf in a lambs skin? For iwis to confess himself guilty in such case, and putting himself in worse case than his fellows, were but a poor point of a wily wolf And as I put this case for ensample: so may there be many other. For the tokens might be plain enough though they were less plain than thus. And therefore to conclude in this matter, this man hath no reason in this world to defend his first book withal.  
¶ And therefore where he spendeth a patch in the end, about his declaration, that it may be lawful for him to find default at laws made by the church, so that he find them upon a sufficient reason, because all that point nothing helpeth him here in this law, against which he showeth no reason reasonable, but a reason as unreasonable as ever reasonable man heard: I shall I say therefore let that piece pass by, and here make an end of his xvi chapter.   

The xvii chapter.  
HIs xvii chapter beginneth folio lxii In the beginning whereof he merue●●e●h that I speak so oft in mine apology, of his using this word Some say. And he showeth that in a ●ale told him by other folk, there is good reason that he so should say/ and that I use the same word myself to sometime, and telleth two places where, fo. 77. and fo. 100 I neither did nor will find fault that he use this word some say/ nor I will not let (where the case requireth) to say myself, that some say this or that. For I know well it is english. But the fault that I found and yet find, is that his book of division abuseth the figure of so many some says, to the sedicyo●s slawnder/ of the clergy/ and specially of thordinaries in the punishment of heresy, to bring them in obloquy of the people thereby. And where as upon complayntꝭ made the matters have late been examined, & the truth hath been plainly proved contrary: yet hath he never one Some say thereof in all his book, neither in the tone book nor the t'other/ but all his Some says ever more say evil, & never a Some say well. This is the fault that I find. For if he made a book with five times as many good Some says, as his Some says in that book be nought: I would find in his Some says no defawt at all. For some say is (as I say) good english. But when a book is full of shrewd Some says: there do some men say, that Some say is as shrewd an english, as any dowch woman speaketh.  
¶ But now to show that in all his Some says he meaneth none harm, he goeth further, and for a sample he bringeth forth one, which is in very deed a very malicious naughty pestilent Some say, whereof the pretence is the safeguard of innocentes/theffect is the decay of the faith by the bolding of heretics, the instrument is a false imagined slander against the ordinaries. And as wilily as those shrews that beguile him have holp him to involve and intryke the matter: I shall use so plain and open a way therein, that every man shall well see the troth.  
Lo these are this good man's words.  
And one of thee (some says) that he findeth defau●e at is this: I say in the viii chapter of the said treatise thus: And here some saye● that because there is so great a desire in spiritual men, to have men ab●iured or to be noted with heresy: And that some as it were of a policy do noise it, that the realm is full of heretics, more than it is in deed, that it is very perilous, that spiritual men should have authority to arres●e a man for every light sus●peccyon or complaint of heresy, till that desire of punishment in spiritual men be ceased and gone but that they should make process again them to bring them in upon pain of cursing: and then y● they t●●ye vi days, the kings laws to bring them in● by a writ of Excommunicato capiendo, and so to be brought forth out of the kings gayole to answer. And it followeth in the said viii chapter thu●: but surely as it is somewhat touched before in the vii chapter, it seemeth that the church in time 〈◊〉 have done what they could to bring about that they might punish heresy of themself, without cal●ynge for any help therein of the secular power. And therefore they have made laws that heretics m●ght be arrested, and put in prison, and stocks y● need w●re, as appeareth in Clementinis de h●reticis, Cap. Multorum querela. And after at the special cal●ynge on of the spiritualty, it was enacted by parliament, that or●ynaryes might arrest men● that prithee hold, teach, or inform other in heresy, there pr●h●●●yte, or that thereof hold any ●onuentycles or ichthies. For ●●me men think that the said Clementine was not of effect in the kings' laws to arrest any man for heresy. But if a man were openly and notably suspected of heresy, and there were sufficient record and witness against him and there were also a d●u●te, that he would ●lee and not appear, whereby he might infect other it ●●meth conuenyent● that he be arrested by the body, but not upon every light complaint that full lightly may be untrue. And that it will be ●yght expedient that the kings highness and his counsel ●oke ●pecyally upon this matter, and not to cease, till it be brought to moor quietness than it is yet: and to see with great diligence that pride, covetise, nor worldly love be not judges, nor innocentes be punished ne yet that wilful offender's go not without due correction.  
And when master More in his apology hath recited the said words of the said trea●y●e: then he endevoyreth him sel●e very much, to make it appear that the motions that he made in the s●●● treatise in the place before rehearsed be unreasonable, & can not be brought about: or else that if they we●e brought about they should do hurt and 〈…〉. And to make his sayings the more accept●●●●/ he layeth sometime defa●te in my sayings and saith tha● I thereby defame the judges spiritual, where I defame them not/ but say only that it is ●●pedyent that the kings' highness and his counsel see/ that pride couetys● nor worldly ●one be n● judges. And whether thoo words amount to that effect/ that master More saith they do/ that is ●● say that I defame all spiritual judges it appeareth e●●dentely they do not.  
¶ Now good readers to the intent that you may the more plainly perceive, both the good mind of this good man's first book of division and also his second book here in defence of the same: take the labour to read the xlvi chapter of mine apology fo. 232. And than shall you think I suppose, that all his defence is so faint that I little need to reply.  
¶ For first where he saith, that I say that in those words, he diffameth the judges spiritual: I would he had rehearsed my words with which I say so. For I am sure enough my words be no larger than the truth. But that is his usual craft to leave out for the more part, both my words & the place, because men might ween it were in some part of my book though they remember not where.  
¶ But now because he sayeth, that it is evident that those words of his do not amount unto the dyffamation of the spiritual judges: I have showed and proved in deed in one or two places of mine apology, that a●l the great matter of his complaint, upon the cruelty of the spiritual judges, in handling men for heresy, sith there hath been very few troubled therefore in any diocese in England or wales/ by the space of these xx. years or xxx last passed/ except only Lyncoln and London/ and that therefore the false complaint of miss handling, could have little colour any farther than those two dioceses/ and yet to say the truth never complaint brought forth by any such man but in London diocese, nor yet not but in London and some piece of Essex alone/ and the complaints upon examination had by the kings honourable counsel, alway found causeless and false: sith this is I say so clear, that no man can say the contrary, but that this is true, I declare and show in my said appologye, that where with his false some says he defameth and laboureth to bring in obloquy of the people, all the spiritual judges in the realm: of wrong and cruel handling men for heresy, all the men that his false some says (if they were true) did touch, were yet in deed so few, that he might in a manner as well speak of them by name. And in very deed so few they be. For they be as few or fewer, then are the judges either of the tone bench or the t'other.  
¶ And therefore when he cometh now forth under shadow of a shrewd some say, and showeth that the spyrytualle men have a great desire to put men to abjuration, and to have men noted of heresy, and that therefore till they leave that condition, it were well done they should have less authority/ & that it will be right expedient that the king and his counsel look specially upon this matter, and to see with great diligence, that pride, covetise, nor worldly love be not judges, nor innocentes punished, nor yet that offenders go not without due correction: is not this a lewd coloured slander and (without any such thing proved) a shame less defamation?  
¶ If this good man would in like wise write and put in print another book, and there in speak first of ius●yces in general, as it might s●me to touch all the judges of every base court, & justices of the peace to/ and then by some certain circumstances restrain it in such wise, ●hat every man may see that he meaneth only the kings judges at w●stmynster, ● say, that some say that specially of la●e the matters of comen pleas be evil handled by the judges/ and that in writs o● error & in ple●s of the crown the judges miss handle the people sore and do much wrong/ & that some say that they have this evil desire, & that/ & that till they have left them, it were w●l done that they had less authority. And then after such a false foolish some say●, come forth with his saying, & in approbation of his other saying, conclude & say thus much farther, it will be right expedient therefore, that the kings highness and his counsel look specally upon this matter, and to see with great diligence that pride covetise, nor worldly love be not judges etc., were this wily foolish handling no false defamation at all?  
¶ And now when he handleth the spiritual ordinaries with like words for heresy, and his somesays false imagined lies/ and though his book of dyvison laboureth to draw that false suspicion farther/ yet himself seeth by experience that while there hath in long while but in two dioceses very few been punished for heresy, the slander that he soweth toucheth some very few, no less than though he wrote in their names. How can he therefore for very shame say that it is no defamation? weeneth he the readers of his work were all such fools, that he might avoid his plain open deed with his bare bold word, where he saith it appeareth evidently nay, where every wise man that readeth it seeth well himself that it well appeareth evidently yes.  
¶ Now goeth he farther with another piece and saith.  
Nor yet my words prove not that I would have all spiritual judges changed. For the spiritual judges that be now, may be judges still, and have all the properties before rehearsed, as well as other, for any thing that I have said. And yet master More taketh it otherwise, and sayeth/ I would have such judges, as have no spice of any of the said points. And he saith, that till such judges may be found, heretics may make merry for a little season/ why●e men walk about and seche for such judges/ which he weeneth will not be done in a weeks work.  
¶ Here he leaveth out again the place of mine that he toucheth. For when that is ones red, all his gay tale is gone. For there shall you see that I consider his words, and declare two ways that the good man might mean/ of which twanne he taketh here the tone, and the t'other he lets slype. And yet in taking his words as he would now seem: my words which he dissembleth here, turn up a●l his tale/ and that the man saw full well/ and therefore winked of them. But I shall br●nge them in again here, and repe●e them for him. Lo good readers in the xlvi chapter fo. 253. after h●s w●rdes rehearsed at length, thus I 〈◊〉 mine own.  
I● this process lo good readers this pacifier declareth, that he would have the kings highness and his counsel so specially look upon this matter, that neither innocentes should be punished, nor yet wilful offenders go without dew corrections who could end and conclude all his matter more fruitfully.  
But now the special ways whereby he deviseth, that the kings highness and his counsel should bring this thing about be twain.  
The tone is, if they provide that neither men that be proud nor covetous, nor have any love to the world, be suffered to be judges in any cause of heresy.  
The t'other is, that the bishops shall arrest no man for heresy, till the desire that spiritual men have to cause men abjure heresies, and to punish them for surety, be ceased and gone.  
And surely I think that his two devices will serve sufficiently for the tone part/ that is to wit that none innocentes shall be punished. But I fear me very sore, that they will not serve half so sufficiently for the other part, that is to wit that wilful offenders go not with out correction.  
For now to begin with his first device, that none be suffered to be judges in cause of heresy, that are proud or covetous, or have love to the world if he mean of such as have none of these affections with notable enormity, then till he prove them that are all ready worse then he proveth them yet/ that is to say till he prove it otherwise by some of their outrageous deeds in the dealing and myshandelyuge of men for heresy, that he here defameth them of, then he hath yet proved, and that he prove their cruel wrongful dealing, otherwise then by somesayes, or by his own saying: the kings highness & his counsel can see for all his wholesome counsel, no cause to change those judges that are all ready, but to leave them still/ and them serveth that device of nought.  
And on the other side, if he mean that the kings highness shall suffer none to be judges in cause of heresy that hath any spice at all, either of pride, or of covetise, or any love at all unto this world: heretics may sit still and make merry for a little season, while men walk about and seek for such judges. For it will not be less than one whole weeks work I ween both to find such, and to be sure that they be such.  
¶ Here have you herd good readers a reasonable cause why that I should take him that he would have the spiritual judges, such as should have no spice of pride covetous nor worldly love. For either he must mean so/ or else (as I said) he must mean on the other manner which I rehearse first, and which he would now seem to mean. But then (as I have said) if he meant in the first fashion as he would now seem: all his tale is over turned. For than had he no cause of any such complaint. For he neither had himself when he wrote nor any man else, proved by any of them the contrary. And then needed he not to spend out his profound wisdom, in making such exhortations to the kings highness and his counsel, to see with so great diligence (as though they had be so long negligent) to the thing that himself could not say nay, but that it was meetly well enough all ready. And thus you see good readers that he left out and dissembled that first part of my words, because he wyste near what to say thereto. And therefore sith, except he meant in the first manner (which he could not do without the marring of all his matter) you see well that himself drove me to think, that he would have the kings grace and his counsel, see diligently that there should be no spiritual iudgis, but they that had no spice of pride, covetise, or worldly love at all. And then might heretics as I said (while such judges were in seeking) make merry for a little while. And I kept myself meetly well within my bounds. For where I said it would be a weeks work to seek them: I ween it would he fourtenyght full ere we found them.  
¶ But then gooth he farther somewhat about to show, that I have miss handled his words, & with joining mine own unto his, have made it seem that he sayeth much worse by the spirituality than he either said or meant. But when you have heard all his tale and mine to, you shall well see good readers that he shall never while he liveth convey this gear so clean. For these are first his words here.  
And he sayeth/ that it will be the more hard to ●ynde such judges. For he saith, that I have put that matter out of doubt/ that where no men wol●e have wend honest to have found them, that there I say/ it will be marvelous hard to ●ynde any one of them/ either prelate's, seculere priests or religious persons. For he saith that I say plainly/ that have they never so many virtues beside/ that yet I say, it will be hard to find any one spiritual man/ but that he is so infected with desire and affection to have the worldly honour of priests exalted/ that he is through such pride far fro such indyfferency and equity, as ought and must be in such judges/ which as he saith, I assign to be such, that they must have no spice of pride covetise nor lo●e toward the world.  
As to this last rehearsed sentence of master More this is the troth therein/ I say in an other place of the said treatise, other than that/ that master More hath rehearsed here/ that is to say, in the vii chapter of the said treatise, that though many spiritual men may be found, that have many grea● ●ertues, and great gifts of god/ as chastity, liberality, pa●yence, soberness, temperance cunning and such other: yet it will be hard to find any one spiritual man that ye not infect with the said desire and affection/ to have the worldly honour of pres●ye axalted. And there my sentence endeth, as to this purpose. But then as it appeareth before, master More in his said apology addeth immediately to those words of mine, words of his own putting in/ which be these: That he ye through such pride far fro such indifference and equity/ as aught & must be in the judges, which he saith I assign. And he combyneth the words to mine/ in such manner as though I spoke them myself. So that they that shall read them, can none otherwise take them, but as my words: whereby he perue●teh clearly my meaning and my sentence therein. For my sentence, ne yet my meaning therein/ is not but that judges spiritual may have some spice of pride covetise and worldly love, and yet be meat judges in heresy/ as the frailty of man suffereth. For we be no angels but sinners, that lightly may fall and be deceived. Ne I mean not, ne yet my worde● amount not to it, but that a man may have a desire and affection/ to have the worldly honour of priests exalted/ and yet be a meet judge in heresy. For I suppose/ that a man may have that desire in some degree, and to some intent/ and not offend therein/ specially deadly. How be it he may also lightly offend therein, if he be not right well ware.  
¶ If this good man her say true in these aforesaid words of his And there my sentence endeth as to this purpose: then am I content to confess, that he saith well, and I wrong. But on the other side now, if he say not true, but that in the defaming and slandering of the spiritualty, his sentence ended not there, but wen●e there much farther forth, and so far forth also/ as amounted unto as much as I say that he said, & unto much more to: then will every man bear me record, that I miss report not him but he me.  
¶ Now shall you good readers soon see this tried between us. For his whole words as they lie there together, I shall now rehearse you here. Lo these they be as you shall find them both in his book of division, and in mine apology fo. 237.  
And though many spiritual men m●y be found, that have right many great virtues and great gifts of god, as chastity, liberality, patience soberness, temperance, cunning, and such other/ yet it will be hard to find any one spiritual man that is not infect with the said desire and affection to have the worldly honour of presties exalted and preferred/ & therefore if any lay man report any evil of a pres●e/ though it be openly known that it is as he sayeth/ yet they will be more diligent to cause the lay man to cease of that saying/ then to do that in them is to reform that is a miss in the pressed that it is spoken of/ taking as if were an occasion to do the less in such reformations/ because lay men speak so much against them: But surely that will be none excuse to spiritual rulers afore god/ when he shall ask account of his people/ that were committed unto their keeping.  
¶ Now you see good readers, how untrue it is that this man telleth you. For here you see that his sentence leaveth not where he saith it left as to that purpose: but you see that it goeth forth farther about that purpose still, to show that it will be hard to find any one spiritual man just & indifferent, but that the desire and affection to have the worldly honour of priests exalted and preferred, hath so far infected them, that if a lay man report any evil of a pressed, though it be openly known that it is as he saith, yet they will not only rather put the lay man to silence, than any thing amend the pressed: but that they will also do the less to the amendment of the pressed, because the lay men speaketh of it. which affection can not be but a very proud damnable frowardness.  
¶ And therefore while this good pacifier there saith, that all the priests be so far infect with such a proud damnable desire of their wordly exaltation, that it willbe hard to find any one of them any other. And then a little before those words (as you may see in his said chapter in mine apology fo. 235. he saith under the figure of a great rumour among the people/ that spiritual men punish heresies rather to oppress them that speak any think against their worldly honour and richesse &c: then for zeal of the faith: these words of his being there such, judge now good reader whether I might not well say that this good man saiyh it will be hard to find any one spiritual man, but that he is so infected with the desire and affection to have the wordly honour of priests exalted, that he is through such pride far fro such indifferency & equity, as ought and mus●e be in such judges as himself assigneth to be such as they must have no spice of pride covetise or love toward the world. I am very sure that his words maintain mine and more to.  
Nay (saith he) for I do not mean that they should have no spice thereof. For they may have some spice thereof: and yet may be judges in heresy well Enough. For they may have that desire in some degree and some intent, and not offend therein, specially deadly.  
¶ But I have against that proved afore that he must mean so: or else must have left his tale untold. Foyes if he meant to be content with folk of mean conditions without notable enormities, such they were all ready, and then had his great exhortation little place.  
¶ Also this pride with which his words say that they be all so sore infected, that it willbe very hard to find any one other/ is a very pestilent pride/ and in an high degree, and such as he could not well devise a more deadly defamation of the hole spirituality/ than those words be, which if they were true (as they be false) plainly proved, that in all the hole clergy it were hard to find any one good honest man, or me●e to be a judge, either in heresy or in any thing else. And so would he by this device of his, take away as I said from examination of heresy, all the spiritual judges, and leave them none at all.  
And yet good readers to th'end that you may the better perceive, what those words of this man amount unto/ which he would make you ween here that I both miss rehearse and myssecōs●re: wouch safe to read my words that I write upon them in mine apology folio. 238.  
¶ But now this good pacifier perceiving, that it willbe hard to bear it, but that his words clearly take away fro the clergy, all such indyferency and justice, as himself assigneth to be required of necessity, in every man that should be suffered to be judge in heresy/ he falleth to another shift to save the matter upright. And therein thus he saith.  
And furthermore though it were ●● master More taketh it to be/ that my words should sound to that effect that the iu●es that were then were, through such pride far fro the indyfferencye and equity that I assign: yet that proveth not/ but that they be now indifferent and rightwise. For they might sith the ma●ynge of the said treatise, become through grace, indifferent, rightwise, meek, liberal, and loving to god and their neighbour/ though they were not so then. And if they be, so than heretics shall not make merry for lack of judges a week ne yet a day. For the same judges may sit still without changing/ to here and e●amyn them when need shallbe. Thus as me seemeth, it appeareth every way/ that the exception that master More taketh of changing of spiritual judges is but of small effect.  
¶ This reason hath so some s●tylty: but it hath no substance. For if they were all so naughty so late, as this good man saith they were, it will be but hardly believed, that so many of them, upon so short a sermon of this poor preacher, should be so well changed so soon, but that as I said, theretics were well like, yet one week longer to make merry, before men might have so sure experience as to put them so soon in trust to be judges in heresy, whom this pacifier had persuaded to be so far unmeet for the matter so late. And therefore it appeareth every way that this good man's invention is toward evil of very great/ toward good of very small effect.  
¶ Than goth he forth on with the matter and thus he saith.  
Then saith master More further that if some say ●e no sufficient proof/ then is my tale all l●st. And to these words I will answer thus. I will agree that my saying that some say this or this/ is no proof/ neither to prove that some say so/ ne yet to prove that it is so. For in every proof must be two witness at the lest. But if two will say it is so ● then it is a proof.  
And surely if master More will inquire for the truth in this matter, he shall find that there be many more than two that say so. And verily if many m●n say so● though the truth be not so, yet the ta●e i● not all lost to say that some men say so. For than it shall put the byshoppe● and rusers spiritual in mind, that they are bound in conscience to help them that say so all that they can● fro the danger that they run in by that saying. And if it be true, then may the spiritual rulers order the matter as they shall see cause, and reform it in such chary●ab●e manner that none shall say so hereafter: but they will of malice do it, and run into the slander of the Pharyseis: and that would charitably be examined, whether it be so or not.  
¶ This is a pretty piece, and such as I have seldom seen the like, come out of any wise man's mouth. For though that in judgement, men must presume a thing is true, which two good honest persons sworn and examined depose and testify, that themselves have seen the deed, or heard the words spoken, by the mouth of the person which for such deed or saying is accused: yet saith no man for all that/ that because two men say it and swear it to, therefore it is so. For as to the necessary consequence of the deed/ this argument is very faint that this man maketh. Two men say it is so, ergo it is so.  
¶ Than upon this argument such as you see, he sendeth me to inquire and than I shall he saith find, that there be many more than two that say so. That may well hap now, by occasion of his book of division. But what if I inquired of them. that I should hap to find not only many more than two, but also many more than two hundred, that would say that the spiritual men for such evil affections as this good pacifier surmyseth, have great desire to abjure men or note them of heresy: y●t whyse all they could among them all lay no proof at all/ but always the troth proved contrary, both by that, that in far the most part of this realm, and take wales thereto, there have not been before his book of division, five men abjured in fifteen year. And in those that have been/ rigour hath not been used more than necessary: but there hath been used more than necessary favour/ & that this hath been already proved ofter than ones, before the kings honourable counsel, I would not esteem the babbling of two hundred, no not though they were two thousand, & yet many more to, the mountenance of ii straws/ for any thing that I would regard any good man that worse. But I would for their own parts be sore ashamed to hear them, & clearly perceiving that they so lewdly lied: I would be sore ashamed to tell the tale again after them. And this I say if I should with inquiry thus hap to find, as I verily trust I should not if I did inquire.  
¶ But now his Some say being so false as it is, it is a world yet to see what a found shift he findeth, that he would not yet by his will have that lie lost. For he saith, that though the truth be not so, yet the tale is not lost to say that some men say so. For (he saith that) than it shall put the bishops and spiritual rulers in mind, that they are bound in conscience to help them that say so all that they can, fro the danger that they run in by so saying.  
¶ What good I pray you can this false Some say do? For what can the spiritual men do for their help that so bylye them? any other than advise them to leave such lying? And that had been a better part for this good pacifier to have played himself, & so to have told them upon whose tale he wrote it: than to the reproach & rebuke of so many good worshipful men make a book of divisyon, & therein writ every lewd word, that any lewd folk, or any false shrews would tell him. Whose evil tongues the spirituality can never appease: but if to please them they should displease god/ and without letting heresies grow and go forth, should themself rather do evil than let lewd folk speak evil.  
¶ And now to th'intent good readers that you may the more clearly see, to how little purpose the pacifier hath in this point answered me/ ye shall understand that my words in mine apology which he would seem to answer well here, were these. fo. 257.  
But yet is this pacifier not so favourable toward folk suspected of heresy, as to take away the power of the bishop for ever, of arresting them, and to drive the ordinaries for ever to sue citations against heretics and process of excommunication/ but will have he sayeth the bishops power of arresting no longer suspended, than as long as spiritual men have that great desire to cause men abjure or to have them punished for heresy/ as though he had well proved that they have so, because he sayeth that some men say so.  
But now if Some say be no sufficient proof/ than is his tale lost. For than he showeth no cause why that power of theirs should in any case be more suspended now, than in any time here before. And on the other side, if some say be a good proof/ than the suspending will be as long as a depriving for ever, sith there shall never be any time in which there shall lack one or other some say to say more than troth.  
¶ Lo good readers here you see, that unto the second part of these words of mine, he answereth nothing at all. And than have you seen before that unto the first, his answer is so feeble, that it had been better for him to have done therewith as he doth with the t'other, leave it unanswered to.  
¶ But now goeth he ferther and saith, Then saith master More yet ferther, that which is a light suspicion and which is a heavy, and which witness be sufficient, and which not, must be weighed by the spiritual judges, and upon their weighing of the matter for light or heavy, to follow the arrest of the party, or the leaving of the arrest. Now verily in this point me thinketh that master More maketh a right good motion, that is to say, that the matter should be examined before the arrest. For it hath been said in times passed, that in such ca●e the arrest hath many times gone before the examination. Nevertheless under what manner the examination and the arrest should be made in such case, I will make no devise at this time: For happily master More would anon find a defawt at it, and therefore I will lean it to them that have authority, to treat ferther of it, and to devise how to avoid the maze that master More speaketh of in his said xlvi chapter.  
¶ Now good readers this man maketh here, as though I had given him in my words, some great advantage to ground some great matter upon. And therefore I shall rehearse you what my words were, that yourself may see how sore I oversaw myself therein, and what he meaneth by the maze that he nameth here These are lo my words in mine apology fo. 257.  
yet is he content at the last, lest every man might spy the peril of his device, to temper his device in such wise, that till the spiritualty have left their cruel desire of abiuring and punishing folk for heresy, they should not be suffered to arrest folk for every light suspicion, or every complaint of heresy. How be it he granteth that where one is openly and notably suspected of heresy, and sufficient record and witness against him, & besides all that, a doubt that he would i'll whereby he might infect other: than he granteth it convenient that he should be arrested by the body. And therein he bringeth in the Clementine and the statute, by which the ordinaries have power to arrest fol●e for suspicion of heresy/ and would as far as I perceive, have the king reform them after his device. But yet sith which is a light suspicion, and which is an heavy/ and which is a light complaint, and which is an heavy/ and which is an open suspicion, and which but a privy, and which suspicion is notable, and which is not notable, and which witnesses be sufficient, and which be not sufficient, be things that must be weighed by the spiritual judges/ and upon their way●nge of the matter for light or heavy, must follow the arresting of the party or the leaving of the arrest: we be come again as in a maze to the point where we began, that be the matter great or small, lest all the while they be cruel they should judge light heavy and small great, their arresting of any at all must be susspended fro them, and send them to sue by citation, till men see that same mind of theirs of desiring men's abjuration and punishment utterly changed and cease/ that is to say till there be no man left that will so mysche as say, that some men say that they have not left that mind yet, and make a lie again of them than, as those some have done that have so said all ready to sir Iohn some say now. And long will it be I warrant you ere ever all such folk fail.  
And therefore sith in the mean season by this pacyfyers good devise, here●tykes may go unarrested/ I can not believe that if his way were followed, it would be any good mean to make that wilful offenders in heresy should not pass unpunished, as fast as both in the end of this chapter & the t'other before also, he calleth upon the kings highness and his counsel and his parliament, to look upon this matter after his good advertisement, and never cease till they bring it to effect.  
¶ Here you see good readers, because this man with his devices bringeth himself into a maze, out of which he can not see how to get, he would now set other folk to study there about. And would make them very careful, about a thing little needful. For it hath well appeared, & well been proved to, that the spyritual judges have yet hitherto in arresting for heresy, right well examined and considered, first both the cause, and the necessity, & have been rather therein many times to slow/ than any time over hasty. And therefore I may and will say here again as I said there, that I little doubt but that if the kings highness do as I doubt not but his highness will do, maintain and assist the spiritualty in executing of the laws, even those that are all ready made against heresies/ & command every temporal officer under him to do the same for his part: though there were never more new laves made therefore, yet shall both innocentes be saved harmless well enough, & offenders punished to. ¶ To this cometh forth this good man in this wise.  
Now verily to those words of master More I dare say thus, that master More or he had spoken though words, had occasion by reasonable conjecture to have doubted more at the matter then he hath done, and to have thought it very like, that if the same laws should shonde as do now in every point concerning heresy, that many innocentes that be not guilty, might upon suspection of heresy be driven to purge themself, after the will of the ordinary, and yet be not gylty● ye and over that master More might have reasonably doubted, & as I suppose in conscience he ought to have doubted more than he hath done, that sometime innocente● might happen upon the suit Ex officio, or upon light complaints by favour of officers, or ●ppon malice or displeasure, be arrested before examination, and yet master More himself assenteth, that the examination should be before the arrest. And he might have doubted also, that some innocentes might by such perjured persons, as be above rehearsed in this chapter be sometime condemned. And therefore the said words of master More whereby he taketh upon him to say, as it were in his own authority to perform it, that innocentes by the same laws as be all ready made for heresy, shallbe saved harm less well enough, might hap to be of small effect to help an innocent man or woman that should happen to be wrongfully troubled in time to come against his words before rehearsed  
¶ Now verily to all these words of this good man, I dare say thus, that I when I wrote the words had & yet have very good coniecturs to put little doubt therein. For though I might think that this harm and this harm might hap: yet sith I have well seen it proved, that the spiritual judges have used themself in these matters, not only so truly, but over that also so favourably/ that no man can ꝓue in this realm such harms to have happened yet/ but where as such things have been of late surmised, the troth hath been well proved contrary before the kings honourable counsel/ I had and have very good cause to think, that as they have done well hitherto, so shall they well do hereafter.  
¶ And sith all this good man's ground is no more, to take away well approved laws with, but the harm may hap sometime, to some good man thereby, which reason he may make against the best law that all the world can make: I dare be bold to warrant, that that cold reason so fervently set forth in such a weighty matter, is not well worth a ryshe.  
¶ And if men would go about to change these old long proved laws: I would as my duyte is, pray god give them the grace to make the changes good/ but for that little wit that I have, I verily believe and think that ●f any changes be made rather more slack than straighter: then shall the changes be made rather far worse then better. And thus end I good readers this good man's xvii. chapter.   

The xviii chapter  
HIs xviii chapter beginneth, fo. lxix. Wherein he beginneth first with the ca ut inquisitionis negocium & li. vi. whereby it appeareth, that all lords and rulers temporal, be prohyhyted that ●ey shall not in any manner take knowledge or judge upon heresy. And vp●on this himself addeth unto it in hi●●oke of division, that he that enquyret● of heresy, taketh knowledge of her●●y, and that himself saith not so alone, but that Summa Rosella saith so to. And hereupon he concludeth, that it should seem, that all the justices of the peace be excommunicate, and all stewards in lets, & all enquests to, as many as meddle with all. For whether in lets they may or not, that he saith he doubteth, but he saith that I say they may, but he telleth not where I say so, nor as I verily think he never found it in any book of mine. I say in mine apology, fo. 227. that in every let they do so, whither they lawfully so may do or not thereof speak I nothing/ all be it I think they may well enough, both without offence of the kings law, or apparel of cursing either.  
¶ For I little doubt, but that ●here were of the clergy at the m●kynge of the statute more men than ●e, that understood Summa Rosel●, as well as this good man doth, if Summa Rosella were then made and in men's hands.  
¶ And I doubt not also as little, but that there were at those days in the clergy more than one, that were of counsel in the making of the statute, that understood the chapter ut inquisitionis, as well as this mam doth, and as well as he that made Summa Rosella to. And that they well understood that the said chapter meant of such inquysytours, and such inquisitions, as they make that are in the corpse of the law called Inquisitores heretice pravitatis/ of which there are in some places special officers to inquire, proceed, and do therein as th'ordinary do: and meant not of such inquyrours and such inquisitions, as do none other wise inquire, but only by way of information to bring the matter to the ordinaries knowledge.  
¶ For as for the minour of this good man's argument, that he that enqnyreth of heresy, taketh knowledge of heresy, so doth every denouncer, every accuser, and in a manner every witness to, take upon them knowledge of heresy in some manner wise: for they take upon them as they well may that this thing or that thing is heresy. But this is not the knowledge that the law forbede●h: but the knowledge that we call holding plea upon it, which our inquisitions do not: but only serve to bring the matter to the ordinaries hands, which else should peradventure not have herd thereof.  
¶ And for this cause, to be sure that by these inquisitions no man should fall in danger of any examination it was substantially provided in the said statute, that thynquistcyon and the endyghtement of heresy, should serve the ordinary nothing to the proceeding in the matter: but that he should begin his process against the party a fresh, without laying that endyghtement unto his charge.  
¶ And therefore where as this good man, by the high authority of Summa Rosella denounceth here all the justices of peace accursed. I dare be bold by the high authority of Summa Angelica to denounce them all assoiled again. And therefore where as this good man weening that he had well won his spurrys in this point triumpheth upon me and sayeth.  
And to thy● law master More answereth not, But passeth it ●uer, as a thing that ●● it seemeth he lyt●e regardeth/ but only that he saith, that the laws of this realm, and of holy church in heresies may well stand together, for ought that he seeth: And yet it appeareth, that upon this law they do not agree nor stand together. And therefore me thinketh it wol●e not be so lightly passed ●ue● as master More doth pass it over. For it is a dangerous thing to fall into the left censure of the church.  
¶ There were two causes for which I answered him not/ one a general cause, concerning all his matters of laws of the church, wherein he findeth faults, of which I shall speak afterward. Another special cause there was concerning this excommunication. And that was that me thought & yet think, that he spoke therein so chyldyshely that I was a shamed on his behalf to meddle with it/ and to make open his chyldyshe handling thereof.  
¶ But now sith I see him count for so great a conquest, that he put me to silence therein, what purpose can he devise for which I should have answered any thing to that point? had I made any profession to prove every word wrong that he said in all his hook? he knoweth that I said not that I would meddle, but with those certain things that I there speak of.  
¶ But now suppose that there were in that law such fault as he allegeth what could mine answer amend the matter, or his book of division either? If men were accursed as he miss taketh it, could my book or his book take away the curse? No, but we may put the parliament in mind to make a law. His book alone is as able to put them in remembrance thereof as his and mine together. And yet for that point neither needeth mine nor his neither. For the parliament hath made all ready a law for these inquisitions. Which if thy might lawfully make in such form as they have (as I am sure they might) then am I sure that they fall not in excommunication for it. Now if they might not lawfully make it, & thereby fell there in, what could the parliament farther add unto it, that might deliver them of it? And therefore I can not in good faith see to what purpose he wrote of that point himself.  
¶ No but this law is one great cause of division between the spirituality and the temporalty. That would I very fain wit how. For temporal men be not I wot well so far overseen, as to be angry with the spiritual men here now, for that law that a pope made at Rome ere they were borne. And the spiritual men have also as little cause again of any grudge against the temporalty for the matter. And therefore why he should put it in his book of division, for a cause of division I can devise no reason. Foras for that, that he would should seem a cause here, is to unreasonable where he saith.  
As long a● that law siddeth so unrepelled/ s●me priests that see it, will say that they that do against it/ be accursed: and so may lightly fall thereby into a wrongful and vntr●w judgement/ which though it be no great offence, whiles it be of pride/ by despising of the temporal power in that behalf, yet it would be eschewed. And also if they that be so noised to be accursed/ here of it, they will be dyscontented. And so grudges and varya●nces may rise and increase by occasion of it.  
¶ This is a very cold tale, & as deed as ever was door nail. For before himself brought in this babbling of his own about that law/ (which babeling is yet) as I have showed you) to no purpose at all) I never herd any man talk any such word of that law in my days, nor in good faith no more I ween did he neither.  
¶ Nor I dare say he heareth no where yet any priests say, that the justices of the peace be accursed for inquiring against heresies/ none I dare say but such priests as be heretics. And therefore this whole tale of his, save for the malice that it meaneth/ is even a very try●lynge.  
¶ For as for the motion that he maketh so often to have that law repelled, because it is he saith against the laws of the realm: except he mock I wot near what he meaneth. For if the realm here may repel it: them by that the law is here made to the contrary (if it were contrary as it is not) it is repelled all ready. And if he think that the realm here can not re●ell it/ then wereto writeth he and prenteth that piece in his book of division, as a thing for which the temporalty & the spiritualty of this realm should fall in varyau●ce for, where neither the making nor the repelling lieth in neither nother of their hands.  
¶ But surely the repelling though it be the thing that is spoken of, is not yet the thing that is meant in this matter as it aypereth in these words.  
And therefore me thinketh it would not be so lightly pa●sed over as master More doth pass it over. For it is a dangerous thing to fall into the left censure of the church. And if it be said, that the said law is void, because the church had no authority to make it: And that it is therefore not to be feared. And I will yet say thereto, that though it were void/ that yet as long it standeth so not repelled, it were good to eschew it, and not to fall wilfully into the danger of it: and therefore it were better to repel it then to let it stand still, and rather do hurt then good.  
¶ Here you may see good readers, that where as otherwise to repel that law than it is repelled, lieth not in our hands if our law were against it/ and where as of truth it needeth no repelling at all, but the law of the realm standeth there with well enough, he maketh as though all ●he justices of pea●e were accursed there by, as oft as they give the juries in charge to inquire of heresy: therefore lest they should wilfully fall into the censures of the chyrhe, whereof as he saith the lest is a dangerous thing, ye may plainly see that these wily shrews which abuse his labour, mean in all this matter nothing else, but that they would not have heresies inquired of. And yet they need not so greatly to care therefore, for any great things that by such inquisytions are in heresies presented. But yet thus declare they their good wills these wily shrews that thus deceive this good simple soul, & set him so evil a work.  
¶ If he fear so much the censures of ●h● church as he maketh for, and vnd●rstande and believe Summa Rosella so surely as he pretendyth: it had been better for him to examine well his book of division, and this his second book also by the titles of Summa Rosella, and see well why there himself vary not fro Summa Rosella, & be by the sentence of Summa Rosella fallen in the censures of the church himself, by some such manner of writing as his said books have.  
¶ But now cometh this good pacifier forth with a goodly piece & to declare himself indifferent, and to show also a great oversight used upon my part: thus the good man Some say saith.  
And therefore it seemeth right expedient that the said law be repelled. And in like wise it were good to repel all such laws spiritual, as be made contrary to the kings laws and the custom of the realm. And if it be said, that it were good also/ that such statutes and laws/ as be made and used by the temporal power to the grief of the people were also reformed/ and that if I were indifferent/ I would make some motion so to h●u● it: And so it seemeth maysier More doth parte●● 〈◊〉 that I ought to have done, & to have found 〈◊〉 default in the temporal law as in the spyry●●●ll law: How be it because be would bear n● 〈◊〉 of the temporal law in that motion, it seemeth that he somewhat mytygateth his sentence 〈◊〉 and sayeth/ that if I do so/ and that then I 〈◊〉 them/ that is say, the temporal laws and ●ynde defaults at them/ as truly as I do at these that is to say at the spiritual laws: that then I should make two lies for one/ and yet as I suppose, I have assigned some defaults in the spiritual law, which master More can not tell how they shul●●●e excused.  
¶ As to his repelling, I see as I have said no substance in his words. For we repel them as far as I see we can, when we keep them not but make our own laws to the contrary. And therefore as far as I see all that he speaketh of these repellynges, save only for setting forth of his division, is else but a very vain tale.  
¶ But now where he sayeth that I would have him and seem to move him/ to find faults in the temporal law to. I wot near whether his word● have herein more falsed or more folly/ but surely they have both twain, and either the tone or the other double.  
¶ For first every man may see by his own words even here, that I move him not to use as for indyffer●ncye, to find faults in the temporal laws as he hath done with the spiritual laws, when himself here showeth that I say that if he so did, he should make double lies. This showeth that he useth in this saying plain and open untruth. And sith his own untruth appeareth upon his own showing, this showeth also, that he useth open folly.  
¶ And where he sayeth that he hath assigned some defaults in the spiritual laws, which I can not tell how they should be excused: I answer him again, that unto all laws, or all matters that he list to babble of, am I not bound to meddle with/ but of these spiritual ● laws that were made for the repressing of heresies, with which our temporal laws are also conformable and concurraunt with which ● this good wise man for the ease of heretics, hath now founden such faults as a wise man may be ashamed to speak of, I have clearly declared that they need not to be excused/ but that for the finding of such faults his folly to be much accused. This have I proved so plain, that he can find no great cause of glory when he lokath back upon it.  
¶ But now to th'intent you may good readers see, that either this man is not so simple in himself as he seemeth, or else that some wily shrews shamefully do deceive him: I beseech you consider a little either the folly or the craft that the man useth here.  
¶ He hath brought you forth words of mine which I speak he saith of the laws, where as of truth I speak them not of the laws at all, as yourself shall well se. For though he dissemble the place because he would not have you read it: yet have I sought it out for you, in the .99. leaf of mine apology/ and there lo these are my words.  
And this pacifier aggrieveth (as much as in him lieth) the clergy of England, for use of the laws not made by themself, but be comen laws of all christendom.  
If he will say that he blameth but their abuses thereof, the troth appeareth in some place otherwise in his book. And yet sith he proveth that point but by a some say/ he might with the same figure lay like faults in the temporalty concerning the laws of this realm, and prove it in like wise with a great Somme say to. And therein he showeth himself not indifferent when he bringeth in the tone and leaveth the t'other out. And on the other side, if he bring in the t'other to/ than shall he make two fawtes for one. For if he handle them as truly as he handleth these/ than shall he make two lies for one  
¶ Lo good readers consider here I bysech you the manner of this good man. To the first piece of these words of mine, in which case is also the law that we be now in hand with all, ut inquisitionis, wherewith he would in his book of division aggrieve the clergy of this realm which never made the law: he answereth not in all his book one word. And yet in his such manner of aggreving he useth a very sinful, and in his not answering, a very shameful way.  
¶ Than in the remanant you see good readers yourself, that I speak not of the laws. For when I say thus, if he will say that he blameth but their abuses thereof: yet sith he proveth that point but by a Somsay/ he might by the same figure lay like fawtes in the temporalty to, concerning the laws of this realm: is it not here plain that I lay blame in him, for his bylying of the ministers of the spiritual laws under a figure of Somsay, as though they abused the spiritual laws in myssehandeling of heretics whereof I speak more after. And I say that by a like figure of Some say, he might diffame all the temporal mynis●res to, and bring them in grudge and obloquy of the people with like lies of abusing the temporal laws to.  
¶ Now consider good readers, ey●ther how falsely this honest man hath himself, or else how foolishly he hath suffered false shrews, to make him turn and change the sentence of my words fro the men to the laws, to bring in his matters upon, and say that I move him to find fawtes in the temporal laws and put them in pr●n●e abroad as he doth in the t'other, wh●re as you plainly see I speak not of the laws but of the mynis●res/ nor yet advise him to use such fashion with the temporal mynystres neither, lest he make two lies for one.  
¶ Is not now this change of my sentence that he maketh here a very shameless dealing, either of himself, or of some shrewd counsel of his?  
¶ And now knitteth he to this handling the remanant of the said xix chapter, and showeth that he speaketh first of the spyrytua●tye, because the causes of the division specially be grown by them/ and layeth forth a sort of griefs, some part very trifles, and some part remedied before his book of division made, and some part very foolish, & some part for all his some says undoubtedly very false.  
¶ He hath there two levys in the end of that chapter which any wise man that readeth them, shall I suppose, judge a very dreaming tale. And therein it seemeth that as he hath begun with the spiritual laws, so he will after proceed in the temporal laws to. And fain would the man make me so fond as to be his fellow therein/ and saith if I know any such made, as the perleament had none authority to make, or whereupon the people ha●e i●ste cause to complain: it w●r● we●● done that I should show them. And so he thinketh verily that cher●t● should compel me to do, saying that I am he saith learned in the laws of the realm●.  
verily if I knew any such: yet would I not follow neither this good man's holy exhortation, nor his godly sample neither, to do in the tone as he hath done in the t'other, but if I liked his doing a little better than I do.  
¶ And if I be learned in the temporal laws, the less will I follow his counsel. For the better that I were learned in them the less would I ween it would become me, to print and put abroad among the people, a slawnderous book of them to shame them.  
¶ And unto this point good readers I have answered and showed my mind in mine apology before, whereto this man giveth a deaf ear alway. And here, upon a sought occasion with a fond wily change of my words, exhorteth me to the thing to which I made answer all ready. And what I before said therein, that he dissembleth, and saith not one word thereto. But in mine apology good readers, the .159. leaf these were in this point my words.  
His other murmours & grudges that he saith he can not now rehearse, he rehearseth after many of them in his other chapters/ which I will pass over untouched, both for that the more part of them be such as every wise man will I suppose answer them himself in the reading, and satisfy his own mind without any need of mine help therein/ & for that some things are there also therein, that are very well said/ and some also that be they good or bad, I purpose not to meddle much withal, as are the things that touch any laws or statutes all ready made, be they of the church or of the realm, defend them I am content to do, if I think them good. But on the other side if I think them nought/ albe it that in place & time convenient I would give mine advice & counsel to the change, yet to put out books in writing abroad among the people against them, that would I neither do my self, nor in the so doing commend any man that doth. For if the law were such as were so far against the law of god, that it were not possible to stand with man's salvation/ than in that case the secret advise and counsel may become every man/ but the open reproof and redargution thereof may not in my mind well become those that are no more spiritual than I. And sure if the laws may be kept and observed without peril of soul, though the change might be to the better: yet out of time & place convenient to put the defawtes of the laws abroad among the people in writing, and without any surety of the change give the people occasion to have the laws in derision, under which they live, namely sith he that so shall use to do, may sometime mistake the matter & think the thing not good whereof the change would be worse: the way will I not as thus advised neither use myself nor advise no friend of mine to do And therefore I will as I say leave some things of his book untouched, whither he say well or evil.  
¶ Here you see good readers mine answer to this point, concerning the finding of fawtes and putting them abroad in prente: which answer he dissembleth, & again provoketh me to the same, as though he had never herd it/ which answer I will therefore be had as repeated in every place where he provoketh me hereafter to the same point. And thus you see good readers, that where as he hath not in any one chapter of his, brought forth any reason yet: yet hath he brought forth lest in this his xviii in which he boasteth most. For by this hath he plainly declared, that he neither understandeth the law ut inquisitionis, that he allegeth, nor so much as the poor sum called Summa rosella neither. For that good man that made it, undowtedly never meant of such inquisitions as ours are, of which manner he had happily never known none. And as for the law, they very first words thereof to him that understandeth them and considereth them well, sufficiently do declare, that that law forbiddeth lay men to meddle with such manner knowledge of heresy, as should be a let and impedement to the ordinaries, or other the spiritual inquisitors/ & not such knowledge as we take by our inquisitions, that only serve to help the t'other forth & bring the matter to their hands.  
¶ And therefore sith I see well, that this man in the latin laws and Sums, hath so little understanding: I shall be the more content in his laws & his Summies, so much the less to dispute or meddle with him.   

The xix chapter.  
IN his xix chapite● he declareth what he meaneth by confederacies of the spirituality/ and saith he meaneth confederacyes whereby spiritual men pretend to maintain some such laws of the church, and some such constitutions provincial, as are against the kings laws and the old customs of the realm/ and putteth for a sample, the putting of ●restes to answer afore temporal judges, & the statute made de silva cedua, and the statute of mortuaries. ¶ As for conventing of prestis before seculare judges, troth it is the one time th'occasion of a sermon made the matter come in communication before the kings highness. But neither any times sins nor many yeries afore, I never herd that there was any business about it. And yet was the matter ceaced long before any word sprang of this great general division, that his book maketh as though there were such, in a manner general thorough the whole realm.  
¶ And diverse statutes have there sinnys been made, concerning the same point. And many priests convented as they were wont to be before/ and no by synes made by the spiritualty therefore that I here of, nor I trow himself neither. ¶ And in like wise men cut down their woodꝭ every year, in one place & other of the realm/ & either is there not asked the tithe against the statute/ or if some person would with good will get it, & therefore ask it, he getteth it not yet in deed. ¶ For where he sayeth that if I would remember myself well, how often the constitution provincial, made against the statute de silva cedua, hath been put in execution of late days, to the grief of many lay men: I would not have said so generally that there is not any one constitution provincial that he speaketh of, to any man's grief or grudge put in execution in the time of any of the prelate's that are now living/ and affirmeth that the same constitution hath of late in the time of diverse of the same prelate's that now be, been put in execution, to the grief and grudge of many persons within this realm. first as touching mine own remembrance: in good faith I can not remember one. And as to his own remembrance, upon which he affirmeth it to have been done so lately, to the grudge and grief of so many: he shall pardon me though I believe him not till he prove it, or at the lest wise name them that have had the winning, & them also that have borne the loss/ so that I may myself prove whither it be true or not. For except he do the tone, else have I good cause in the mean while, in this point to give no great credence to him.  
¶ For first I can scantly believe that upon the persons bare word, for allegation of the constitution provincial, his paryshen would let him have it. And if there happened any man that would: yet am I sure they were so few, that it were so double folly to lay that for any cause of division, which were done both but by a few, and also not without the parties will, and rather of his own private devotion, than for any fere of compulsion.  
¶ Now if the person would take it of his parishon byforce: I see the comen experience therein such: that I dare boldly say the whole parish would not suffer him. And yet if it were taken in deed: neither should the person enjoy the profit, nor the paryshen bear the loss/ but should at the kings comen law recover a right large amends. For well ye wot his damages should be tared him, not by xii priests, but by xii temporal men, & his costs by the kings judges that are no priests neither.  
¶ Now if this man will say, that many of the persons have in the time of the prelate's that now be living, or that were living at the time that himself wrote those words, recovered in any of the spiritual courtis, the tithe of such woodꝭ, against the statute, by force of that provincial constytucyon: I will see this man prove it ere I believe him in it. For the dayngeour of that suit may be p●raduenture more, than I suppose the person will put in peril for his tithes. And also the paryshen may soon stop the suit in the beginning by the kings prohibition/ whereby the kings judges shall see whither the person sew for such tithes or not, & will not therein suffer him to proceed.  
¶ And therefore till this good man make me better proves of this matter than his own bare saying: he giveth me no cause against so many lets to the contrary, therein to believe his word. But I durst well warrant it, that if he come once to the naming of the parties, so that the specialtyes of the matters may be sought out and made appear: you shall surely find it untrue.  
¶ Now than to maintain withal his great word of confederacies: he bringeth forth that some priests say still, that those tithes & mortuary●s also, for all the statutes be their duties still, & that they which pay them not be accursed. I have espied this good man is a man of sadness, & no great gamener. For if he were he would never be angry for an angry word, spoken by a man that is on the losing side. Hit is an old courtesy at the cardies pardie, to let the leser have his words. And in good faith in this matter I here no such talking at all. And verily this device of his to put this for a cause of division, is in my mind a very childish thing.  
¶ But than goeth he ferther that priests make particular confederacies, to maintain obyties, & priests wages, and to have more at byryalles than they have been wont to have or else to show themself not content, that is to say to ask more than they can get/ and because they can not get it, show themself not content/ that is to wit lower and look angrily, and say they be not pleased. Be not these high matters and meet for that heinous name of confederacyes  
¶ And yet goeth he ferther with an other heinous confederacy, that if a pressed have a business to do in some countries: other priests will as it is said so confeder with hom at arbytr●nentes and other meetings/ or else make them such friends privily, that the other party though he be of right good substance a have also good right/ yet shall he sometime have much a do to obtain if.  
¶ Is not here good readers a wonderful heinous work, and well worthy the name of confederacies of the spiritualty/ that but in some countries, nor there neither of any certainty, but as some say, some priests in the business of another pressed, will, and yet but sometime neither at arbytrementes confedere with their good word to help forth their fellow, or else to make him friends? Ye and then what a mischief he showeth that ensueth thereupon? The other party hath he saith much a do to obtain his right and yet that but sometime neither. But as for lose his right by their means, he sayeth not that any man doth. Be not these heinous confederacies, & things meet for this man to make a book of division for? And yet as though he had very well acquit him self: he knitteth it up with these words.  
And these be some of the confederacies of presses that I meant of/ and not the gathering together of the clergy at the convocations.  
¶ In good faith I saw not how he should mean any other thing, nor that neither well. For the name of confederacies taken to an evil part as this man taketh it, doth signify a meeting and gathering together, and a determination of certain evil folk, conspiring together about an evil thing to be done, with a covenant and promise by each of them made unto other, each to stand with other therein. Now where as at convocations good men come together to do good, and therefore he could not call them confed●racyes as he now sayeth he meant not to do: yet I doubted somewhat whither he so meant or not, because the convocations be at the lest wise comen assemblies together, where of he might hap I thought to give a good thing an evil name. But these matters that he now speaketh of, I could not imagine that ever he meant to call them confederacies, wherein he neither seeth assemblies, nor can assign and prove any conspiracy & mutual promise, in assisting each other about the procurement of any thing at all good or bad. For where as he saith that these be some of the confederacy●s that he meant: I am sure no man doubteth but that these be either all he confederacyes that he findeth, or else at the lest wise the greatest. And then are those that he calleth here particular confederacies, so childish that in good faith I much marvel, that his heart could serve him for very shame to speak of them. And then the t'other that be taketh for general confederacyes/ he neither seeth nor assigneth so much as any assembly about them, or promise or abettement to procure and pursue them. And therefore though some priests would here or there speak of them as their own affection seedeth them: this is far fro the nature and name of confederacy.  
¶ And yet when he hath all together done, while he proveth nothing at the uttermost (though all that he sayeth were as true as it is not) but that they would fain have the tithe of timber still, and that they would fain have the mortuaries still, and that some would fain have greater wages, and some would fain have more money at the beryalles, then for all their fain willing they can get/ when they would only fain have it, and yet in deed get nought of it, nor other folk nothing lose: to make now so great a matter of this and call it an hyghnouse name of confederacies, is as me seemeth somewhat like to him, that would needs have an action against his neighbour because his neighbours ho●se stood and looked over his hedge. For he said that he saw by his countenance that he would have eaten his grass if he could have gotten to it. For as for that, that the hedge letted him, was little thank to him/ for his will was never the less. And thus his xix chapter you see good readers how little reason is in it.   

The twenty chapter.  
HIs twenty chapter beginning in the lxxvi. leaf, hath so little effect & substance in it, and so faintly defendeth his formare matter which it pretendeth to defend, that I puroose to make no long work about it.  
¶ For if you read first his words as they lie in mine Apology fo. 159 in the second side beginning at these words, And here me thinketh I might say: ye shall there good readers find, that I rehearse those words of his even whole, with those words in them, which he would in the beginning of this his twenty chapter, make men believe that I had withdrawn/ as though they were words of such substantial effect, that I would not have it appear in my book that he had written so piththely.  
¶ afterward in another place where they be rehearsed again fo. 162 then printer of lykelyhed left them out of oversight & haste. And surely they be not of so great weight, but that if the author had himself left them out in his book of division, it had made little matter. And if he had over that left out the whole clause: then had he left in his book one lie the less, and his book the better by so much. For whereby proveth he that the spiritual rulers pretend themself to be so clean and pure, that there is no default in them, but all in the people alone, and in themself no manner fault at all? Where heard he ever any spiritual man say this, by the whole spirituality or by any one man thereof?  
¶ They confess themself to be men and sinners. And they confess and knowledge also, that the very cause of this chief mischief that now beginneth to make division, that is to wit the execrable heresies, which mischiefs this good man's evil devices with change of good laws were likely to maintain, if men would follow them: did both begin, and is also set forth & advanced forward, by those ungracious folk that are such among the spirituality, as judas was among th'apostles/ & this not in this realm only, but in other countries to. As by frere Luther, and pressed Pomerane, Otho the monk, and frere Lambert, frere Huskyn, and Swynglius/ & here in England Tyndale, frere Barns George joy, & some other such, as with the seed of seditious heresy, have so wen and set forth division.  
¶ This thing the spirituality both knoweth & knowledgeth. And therefore they do not pretend as this pacifier saith they do, that there hath been no fault among them, but all among the people. And therefore this good man where he sayeth that I left out three words in that clause of his (which yet I did put in indeed: himself had somewhat amended his matter with leaving in of one lie the less, if he had left out the whole clause all together.  
¶ As to that that he saith I changed his words in the end from these words the sight of grace that is spoken of before will not appear, into 〈◊〉 words the sight of grace tha● 〈◊〉 spoken of before, be with you no● and ever more amen: therein he sayeth very true. For sith ●e was fallen into preaching, I not only in the first place rehearsed him as he spoke himself, but afterward also in the second place I took the pain for him to mend his colla●yon in that point, & make it end some what more like a sermon with a good gracious prayer.  
Then goeth he forth, and in the same lief and the next following, he maketh a suspicyouse matter, and can not tell what mind I was of, in changing his word spiritual rulers, into this word prelate's. But look good readers upon the place, and you shall see that I did it of good cause. For I do not there say that he saith prelate's, but I say there that peradventure he will say so. And also besides this that there y● no very great difference between these words, the prelate's and the spiritual rulers: the change from this word the spiritual rulers into this word prelate's, seemed me the more meet and more proper for the matter that the pacifier speaketh in that place, where he speaketh of au●horite that they pretend, and obedience that they claim.  
¶ How be it rather than I would give any cause of division against me, to him that useth to make great divisions upon small grounds/ I shall be content to give him his own word again. And therefore I pray you good readers every of you mend your books/ & in the stead of prelate's in that place, put in spiritual rulers. And when you so have done, the change shall for the matter not be very great/ & yet so much as it shallbe, shall more serve me then him.  
¶ But yet to make me sorry, that ever I was so far overseen, as to take a way his gay golden word of spiritual rulers from him, he beginneth as it were with a great threat ● saith.  
What master More meaneth to change these words spiritual rulers into prelate's, I can not te●l. But now by occasion of the words that master More hath spoken, I will say farthe● in the matter than I had thought to have done.  
¶ How happy was I so, that I had not the grace to let his own word stand. For now will he say farther in the matter then ever he had thought to have done. And that is (saith he) this.  
That I think verily that if so great an oversight fell in to prelate's and spiritual rulers, that they would take upon them to preach heresy, that they would that the people should believe them therein/ and to take it to be catholical that they preached. For who would preach any thing but such as they would have their audience believe.  
¶ believe me good readers, that this man weeneth he sayeth well favouredly in this point/ wherein he taketh such pleasure, that afterward fo. lxxix. he falls into the same again, and saith thus.  
Master More goeth about only to prove, that all my tale is los●e, because prelate's pretend not to be believed if they preach heresy as he taketh it that I sholve say they do. And yet I said not so in deed. And if I did say so/ I said but truly. For if they did preach heresy, it is certain that they would look to be believed as I have said before/ ye and if they would preach and say that if they preached heresy, that they would the people should not believe them: yet if they did after preach heresy in deed, they would look that the people should believe them. For they would say that they were no heresies that they preached. For who will confess that he preacheth heresy.  
¶ Now good readers here have I joined you together this good man's gay words in two places, wherein I perceive he pleaseth himself right well. But to th'intent that you may see whether he have so good cause as he weeneth, consider well his words and mine before, whereupon he cometh to this point. For he maketh as though, I without occasion given of his words, had written that the prelate's pretend not to be believed if they would preach heresy. Wherein whether he say true or not you shall see by his own words, which are these.  
The light of grace will not come, as long as the spiritual rulers pretend that their authority is so high and so immediate of god, that the people are bound to obey them & to accept all that they do and teach, without arguments resys●ence or grudging.  
¶ Now good readers first consider well here in these words of his, what wisdom the man hath showed, in making such a mumbling of changing spiritual rulers into prelate's. For when he saith here, that the spiritual rulers pretend that their authority is so high: what doubt is there but though he mean other rulers more beside whom he calleth no prelate's: yet he meaneth prelate's to/ ye & prelate's specially to. And then when he saith that the prelate's & the other spiritual ruler's pretend this or that: may I not well say that he saith the prelate's pretend this? yes verily that I may. And yet in so changing his word: I change it to his advantage & not unto mine, in that I make his odious saying much less, and nothing more. And thus first you see good readers this man's much oversight in finding of that fault.  
¶ Now consider farther good readers that he saith in those words, not that the spiritual rulers, that is to say both the prelate's & all the remanant to, pretend their authority to be high and so immediately derived fro god, that the people are bound to obey them in this thing or that thing, one, or twain, or ten, or twenty/ but utterly to accept and obey not only all their teachyngꝭ, but also all their doings to/ and neither argue resist nor grudge at any manner thing, that they would either teach or do.  
¶ This general thing he saith. And therefore though I deal as you see so favourably with him in my xxvii chapter of mine apology, as to divide the matter, & ask whether he meant it by their whole authority or part: I might well upon these words of his have taken it, that he had very shamefully belied them, & had said that they had pretended to have their whole authority immediately of god every whit. For if I would so have said/ his general words would well have warranted mine. Also sith his saying is so general, and extendeth utterly not only to all their techyngꝭ, but also to all their doings to/ & saith that they pretend, that by gods immediate ordinance the people should accept all together, both all that ever they say, & all that ever they do: by how many manner things might I have confuted his saying, and have proved it false?  
¶ But yet his saying being such, I took but one thing/ & that was such, as for the matter that we both specially spoke of was next at hand. And therefore I said/ that they pretend not to have such an authory●e that men should obey thaym in all things/ for they ptende not to have authority to bind m●n to believe and obey them, if they would preach heresies. But they plainly profess that if they so would men should not believe them nor obey them therein.  
¶ Here you see that where he saith that he meant not that the prelate's wo●de preach heresy: he speaketh all beside the purpose. For I said not that he either so said or so meant. But I said and yet say, that in those words he said, that if they would preach heresies, they do now pretend, that by the authority which god hath given them, the people were then therein bounden to believe and obey them.  
And in his so saying I there said and yet say, that he saith very far untrue, and that they pretend it not, but plainly pretend the contrary. And thus in this point that he maketh a matter without ground or cause, and that himself with his own words gave me good occasion to write the thing that I wrote: this you see good readers proved very plain.  
¶ But now consider his other words, wherein he liketh himself so well, and weeneth that he proveth that the spiritual rulers of the realm pretend, that if they would preach heresy, the people were by god's ordinance bounden to believe & obey them therein, because they would then say that it were none heresy. In this point his reasoning hath I promise you a little more subtlety than substance/ and yet but simple subtlety neither.  
¶ first as for his case, that if all the spiritual rulers would preach heresy: if he had meant of the spiritual rulers of all christendom, I would have admitted his case none other wise, but as men put & admit a case impossible, to see what might ensue thereon if it were possible/ as saint Poule putteth the case that if an angel came from heaven & preached a contrary gospel, yet the same angel should not be believed. But now sith he putteth it but by the spiritual rulers of one realm, I admit the case as possible/ but yet as such a case, as I trust in god this good man shall see the sky fall first and cache larks ere it happen, though it may be likely enough to happen in some one or twain, or some fewe● against whom the remanant shall preach and teach the troth.  
¶ But now saith this good man thus. If it so happened in them all: than would they all pretend, that by their authority given them of god, the people were bounden therein to believe and obey them. For they would then say that their heresies were none heresies.  
¶ I am content lo to grant him all this/ and I ask him now what than? For all this good readers proveth (you see very well) no more, but that if that case happened that they also preached, they would than all so pretend. But all this proveth never a whit, that the spiritual rulers either now do, or at any time have done, pretended their authority such. Now consider than for what purpose he speaketh of such pretending. He sayeth (you wot well) their pretending of their authority to be so great, that they people should obey them without argument, grudge, or contradiction in all that ever they either say or do. This he layeth I say for so sore a cause of this division, which he maketh in his book, that he saith the light of grace will not come to cease it, till they cease so to pretend.  
¶ And therefore good readers sith this is the thing that he saith, and the purpose that he saith it for, making it a cause of division present: how can he maintain his saying with a case feigned, whereby it may be that they will so pretend hereafter/ where as ever hitherto himself saith not nay, but that they both have pretended and yet pretend the contrary? Can he maintain that the temporalty is at division with the spiritualty now all ready, because it may peradventure hap here after by a far fet possibility, that they may then, no man woteth when, pretend peradventure a thing, whereof they presently pretend the contrary/ and protest also that if the case should so miss hap hereafter, they desire now for than that no man should therein than believe them? Saw you ever good readers any man with such a simple subtlety, cast all his matter in the dust so shamefully?  
Now where he saith to maintain his matter here withal, that it is not to suppose the spiritual rulers will pretend that such authority as they have of the grant of princes, is immediately of god: I say that therein he saith troth, and that I suppose that they will not. But yet let himself look well in his own book of division, & he shall find that himself saith the contrary there, of that he now saith here/ and showeth some things which he both saith that they have but by the mean of princes and the good mind of the people, and yet saith also that they pretend to have the same things immediately of god. As for ensample both their a●thoryte to have the tenth part for tithe, and the things which they enjoy by the name of the liberties of the church, whereby their persons be in many things pryvyledged in this realm before the person of a say man. These things himself saith that they have but by a mean and not immediately of god. And yet he saith in this same xx. chapter, that the things which they call the liberties of the church, they pretend to have immediately of god/ and for all that he saith now that it is not to suppose that they will pretend so. And thus you may see good readers, that for the defence of this place, he is driven to a shrewd narrow strait, when to defend one fault he is fain to make twain.  
¶ Now where as he saith I might have satisfied myself well enough, and that the letter of his words were plain: you see that in the rehearsing again of his own words fo. lxxx, he is fain to suppress & steel away these his own general words, all that they do or teach, to make his words seem plain. For as you see, they standing still, his words are plain against him. For himself now confesseth that they pretend not to do by authority immediate fro god, such things as they do by authority given them by princes.  
¶ But because I would fain fully satisfy him: I shall now show you that with his new declaring that his words were well enough, he hath made his matter out of all measure worse.  
¶ For now read his words again fo. lxxx. & th●re you shall see that he saith that he meaneth only of such authority as the spiritual rulers pretend to have immediately of god. And yet after he declareth it ferther & better on the second side of the same lief in the xiiii line, that he meaneth only such authority, not as they pretend to have, but as they have in deed immediately of god. And to th'intent men might see that he meaneth not of authority falsely pretended, but truly had immediately of god, he putteth for the sample their authority in ministration of the sacraments.  
¶ This is his own exposition of his own words, which he would have taken for so plain, that he is angry with me that I could not spy it, and so satisfy myself before.  
¶ Well go to now: let us rehearse his own words again as himself for his own advantage folio lxxx rehearseth them, & let us plant in his own exposition with them, to make his sentence the more clear/ & than shall we see to what good conclusion he bringeth all in conclusion. For than cometh his whole tale to this.  
As long as the spiritual rulers will pretend, that their authority is so high and so immediately derived of god, in such things as they have their authority immediately of god in deed, (as in the ministration of the sacraments and such other things like) that the people are bounden to obey them without argument or resistance: so long the light of grace will not appear.  
¶ Now good readers here be now his own words with his own exposition therein. And how like you them now? For now the sentence hath he brought at last with much work to none other, but that the light of grace will not appear, as long as the spiritual rulers pretend to be obeyed and not resisted in the ministration of the sacraments & such other things like, because they have their authority therein immediately of god in deed. But than on the other side, when so ever they will not pretend their authority so high therein, nor so immediately derived of god, as to be obeyed therein, but will be content that men grudge and argue and resist them therein, and pull them from the altar, and suffer them to minister no sacraments no● any such other things like: than shall by this good man's new declaration the light of grace appear by and by. Hath not this pacifier here good readers, with much labour at last brought this matter to a wise conclusyon●  
¶ If he will now go fro this again, and put in his other general words again/ which for his advantage he left out in that place: than is all gone again that he goes about/ and all mine answer made (as I have showed you) good, and all his own words nought.  
¶ In the leaf also● lxxxi. these are his words.  
where I say that as long as the spiritual ruler's will pretend that their authority is so high and so immediately derived of god, that the people are bound to obey them without argument or resistance etc. By these words I confess that they have authority immediately derived fro god. But as I said before in the seventh chapter, master Mor● hath a right great and a right inventive wit, whereby he can lightly tnrne a sentence after hy● appetite. And so he doth here etc.  
¶ What high wit or inventive I have to turn a sentence, let the readers judge. But surely the height of my wit can not reach so high, as to perceive in those words of his, the sentence that himself turneth them to/ nor I trow no man's else/ till these words, They have authority, and these words, They pretend to have authority, be both one thing, which they were never yet. And therefore before his confession that he now maketh here new: I might than well take that exception which I have brought there, to a little better effect, than doth his here, which with all his wresteling and all his new declarations, bringeth all together ever the longer unto the worse conclusion.  
¶ For now to colour this his oversight with all, he telleth us which manner of pretences he meant in those words, which he would here so fain defend. And than in stead of pretending to be by god's ordinance believed & obeyed in all things as well words as deeds, he bringeth forth here a few amounting in a some total to the infinite number of four.  
¶ The first is, that the order and disposition of the things that are to be disposed of the church, be to be disposed by the priests: which point to put as for a matter that hath made division between them and us, is a point of small reason as far as my reason can give me. For I remember not of any variance that ever arose between them & us for that point.  
¶ The second is, that all christian princes must subdue their execucions to bishops, & not to prefer them above them. I can not tell you whither there be any such law made or not. But I can tell you well that though there be, this point will not serve his purpose the value of a blue point. For I am sure he never saw in his days any bishop in this realm, use that pretence against the king, or that ever there arose any division thereupon.  
¶ The third is, that no charge should be set upon clerks by lay power. I never heard yet any division rise upon this point in my days/ nor he neither in his I dare say. For I never saw the day yet nor he neither, but that when any need of the king & the realm required it, they have ever more been ready to set taxes upon themself, as liberally and as largely as any man well might with any good reason require.  
¶ The fourth is he saith, that if a seculare judge be negligent in doing of justice, that than after monition to amend it given to the judge, if he will not, than the spiritual judge may compel him to it, or else supply his ●ome and here the cause.  
¶ If I should look now for th●se four laws, it might p●raduenture hap that I should find, that this man had miss taken some of them, as well as he hath miss understonden some of the other that he hath spoken of before. But sith that I never knew grudge or division rise here upon any of them, me needeth never to look more for the matter. For sith this man never saw that any spiritual judge hath interprysed, in defawt of justice to give any such monition, or to supply the room: were that law never so unreasonable, yet to say that upon that law the temporalty hath here conceived such grudge as it hath been a cause of division, this pacifier of division may be much ashamed that ever he devised it. For I dare say that as well this fourth cause, as many of all his other be such, as the people never neither talked of nor thought upon/ nor before his own book, had neu●r red nor heard of. And therefore by the putting in of such things: every child as I said in mine apology may soon perceive that his books labour & intend not to quench but rather to kindle division.  
¶ And therefore verily with his saying here even in the end and conclusion such causes of his division, which causes but by himself the people never heard of: I may well say once again good readers, is not this gear by this good pacifier brought unto a wise conclusion?  
¶ To those words written in mine apology the .169. leaf, this good man answereth thus.  
And now to this conclusion of master More I will say thus, that I beseech almighty god, that the end of all these matters may come to this conclusion, that the very groundely causes of these dyvisyons, that now be not only in this realm, but also in manner through all christian realms, may come to perfit knowledge. For surely I do not take it, that they began either by heresies, or apostasyes as master More in his apology meaneth that they ●●lde do.  
¶ Here you may see good readers that this good man would be loath that it should appear, that the division, parel, & harm have any where sprungen upon heresies begun & set forth by false apostatase, wedded freres & monks, as clearly as it is known that by th'occasion thereof, there have been slain in Almain within these very few years, above lxxx M. people in one summer & yet synnies among the Swychis when zuynglius was slain, many thousands killed to/ and the war begun by the heretics, and the lash by god great goodness laid in their own necks/ as falsely as Fryth belieth the catholics, and against the plain and open known troth, would with shame enough to himself make men ween that the catholics begun the war.  
¶ But than goth he ferther & saith. And if master More will nedyly endeavour himself to hide the truth therein, a● it seemeth he hath done in this chapter, and diverse other places of his apology, by keeping secret such abusions and pretences, as in my conscience have been most principal causes of this division, whereof part be recited in the said t●eatyce, and part in this answer but not all.  
¶ Of these there had need in deed to be more, & some more true, and some of a little more substance to, than be the most part of these that this good man hath laid forth yet.  
¶ Now here he sayeth that I keep secret such abusions and pretences as be the principal causes of the division, whereof himself hath he saith showed some: either he meaneth that those which I kept secret, be those that himself hath written, or other beside them. If he mean other: then either himself knoweth them or not. If he know them not: how knoweth he that I know them, or that there be any such at all? If himself know them and show them not: then he hideth them and keepeth them secret himself as well as I. Now if he mean but those that himself hath written: how can I keep those secret that he hath written? Can I both gather up all his books and go hide them, and also make them that have red them go unreade them again, or forget what they have red.  
¶ But now after this, like wise as he is wont when reason faileth him to fall to preaching: so here, because reason faileth him, he falleth to praying/ and therein thus he saith.  
I beseech almighty god that he have no power to do it, but that the troth may come to fight therein, tho●gh he resist it all that he can. For if it were known/ and the faults charitably reform: all these divisions would shortly have an end.  
¶ Nay pardie, this man seeth well enough that though the fautis of the spirituality were never so fully reform, yet could not all that suffice to bring all divisions to an end, but if one thing be done/ which will never be done, whereof (which he forgetteth) I gave him warning in the .116. leaf of mine apology in these words.  
But now if this pacifier to cease and quench this division, could find the means to make all the whole clergy good: yet for all that, sith he layeth for causes of this division that some men say this by the clergy, and some men say by them that/ were all the clergy never so good in deed, and served god never so well, this division by his own tale, yet could not for all that cease/ except he could provide farther, that no piteous pacifier should in lamenting of division, put forth a book and say, that some lay men say that some of the clergy be nought, and love their ease and their wealth/ and that some say that those that seem best and take most labour and pain, be but hypocrites for all that, and serve god but for vain glory to get themself laud and praise among the people.  
¶ Also if defaults should be charyble reform, as this man saith he would have them: it would be need then to set a little more chartable folk about it, than those have been, that have beguiled this good man with evil counsel in his books/ and have made him under pretext of pacyfyenge division, set forth and increase division, with devising and spreading abroad causes of murmur and grndge, making in some of them an elephant of a gnat, and for old grudges bringing forth some such, as the people never had herd of till they red his bokis and some of the very worst, which were most effectual causes if they were true, bringing forth by heaps with a figure of some say, and very plain lies in deed. Is this the way good readers for a pacifier to make peace with, and put away divisions?  
¶ And now himself handling the matter thus/ he taketh of his charity great thought, lest I go about to hinder his holy purpose. And therefore saith.  
I doubt me very sore, that master more goeth about rather to mar all, then to endevoyr himself to make all well.  
¶ Which be the lykelyheddes now good readers that lead this good man, into this great fere? Because I make open the shrewd mind of his demure countenance, and the harmful intent and purpose of his holy wholesome words. Because I would have the temporalty and the spirituality as the body and the soul of one man, love well together and agree and neither of them be glad to here evil of other, nor to give ear to false seditious slander, but the good folk of either part, draw both by one line, according to both the law is, to repress and keep under the bad/ and among other vices, special such pestilent heresies, as else would oppress the catholic faith, & provoke the displeasure of god, and first sow division, and afterward rear rebellion in the realm, as they have done before this time both here and in other places/ and that I to this intent give mine advice to keep still those good laws that both this realm and all the corpse of christendom have long used and approved. Because I thus do so: therefore this good man feareth that I go about to mar all.  
¶ But while his books go about on the other side, to make the world ween, that heresies be no causes of division/ and to have heretics live in the less fere, with many malicious some says falsely slandereth the ordinaries, of cruel wrong full handling of the people, to drive them by dread or by shame or other tedious business, to set heretics alone/ and go about with bald reasons the best not worth a ryshe, to put away the good laws that have been made against them/ & under colour of a fervour to the faith exhort men to go win the holy land/ and in the mean while yet with such wily ways, labour with heretics, to fill up the ●tretes at home, & by the decay of the christian catholic faith, provoke the wrath of god upon all our heads, which our lord rather turn upon theirs that so would have it: his books busily going about this gear, him 〈◊〉 goeth about (ye see well pe●dye) to make all thing evil.  
¶ But now will I first finish up his twenty chapter, wherein he goeth forward thus.  
And in thy chapter master More layeth dyuer● other objections to prove the said letter unreasonable, which were very tedious to rehearse at length. And therefore I shall as shortly as I can/ touch● some of them.  
¶ Ye know well enough why they be tedious to rehearse. Surely because they be very tedious to answer. But where he saith he will rehearse some of them: he beginneth first to show that I had no cause to doubt of his words wherein he saith that the spiritual rulers pretend their authority to be so high & so immediately derived from god etc. I had saith he no cause to doubt of what authority he meant. For he saith that his words were plain enough, that he meaneth only of such authorities, as they pretend to have immediately from god.  
¶ To this I say plainly, that than are his words plain false.  
For his words be, that they pretend that their authority is so high and so immediately derived from god, that the people are bound to obey them and to accept all that they do and teach, without argument resistance or grudge.  
Now knoweth every man very well that they do not pretend to have authority immediately from god, to do all thing that they now lawfully do and may do, in which the people are now bound to accept and obey them. For as I said in mine apology, in many such things they pretend & claim their authority derived from princes. And therefore ye see that and he labour about it this vii years: he can never defend his words, but that I answered him truly/ & with the necessary distinction that I there made, answered every part. And this himself seeth well enough/ and therefore in the lxxx leaf in the beginning of the second side, where he rehearseth his words again, he leaveth out these words of his own. and to accept all that they do and teach.  
Upon which words the point of the matter hangeth. And therefore here you see now, that where as in the beginning of this chapter, he would make it seem that I steel two or three words of his, which I neither did nor needed for any strength that was in them: here was himself fain to steel away his own words, to beguile the reader upon the reading of the place, and make him pass over his fault for the while unmarked.  
¶ And thus good reader you see, that to save his own words up right, and to impugn mine: in those two sevys lxxx & lxxxi he bestowed his labour in vain.  
¶ But then goeth he farther & toucheth these words of mine Apololye, written in my said xxvii chapter fo. 165.  
Surely in such things as the whole clergy of cristendome teacheth & ordereth in spiritual things, as be diverse of those laws which this pacifier in some places of this book toucheth, being made against heretics/ and all be it that they be & long have been thorough the whole corpse of christendom both temporalty and spirituality, by long usage and custom ratyfyed agreed and confirmed, yet he layeth some lack in them calling them very sore/ in those things I say, that sith I nothing doubt in my mind/ but in that congregation to god's honour gracyousely gathered together, the good assistance of the spirit of god is according to Christ'S promise as verily present and assystente as it was with his blessed apostles, men ought with reverence and without resistance, grudge, or arguments to receive them. And if a provincial counsel err/ there are in Christ'S church ordinary ways to reform it. But in such things as any spiritual governors after a lawful order and form, dyvyse for the spiritual weal of their souls that are in their charge, and which things are such as good folk may soon perceive them for good/ in these things at the lest wise should the good not give ear to the bad folk and froward, that against the best thing that can be devised can never lack a fond froward argument.  
To these words this good man answereth me thus.  
Then to show my mind in some things that master More hath touched yet farther in the said chapter: I will first agree with master More/ that in such things as the hole clergy of christendom teacheth and ordereth in syrytuall things/ and why the of long time have been by long usage and custom through the hole corpse of christendom spirituality and temporalty, ratyfyed agreed and confirmed, aught with reverence to be received: but yet if the same things through long continuance and thorough abusions that rise by occasion of them, prove hurtful & over grievous to the people to bear ● they may the people g●udge and complain lawfully to their superiors/ and desire that they may be reform/ as lawfully as they may do to have temporal● laws reform when need requireth.  
¶ As unto this, because he is so gentle to agree with me, I shall as gently agree with him again/ but yet he getteth nought thereby. For sith the laws against which he writeth, made for the correction of heretics, as I have in the. xu.xvi. and xvii chapter plainly proved against him, and reproved his objections therein, be good and very reasonable/ and that abusions (by occasion whereof he would make it now seem, that in long continuance they become hurtful) he proveth not one in this world, but by false slanderous some says surmised against the ordinaries, and divers times found false before the kings honourable counsel: this answer here of his, helpeth nothing his matter.  
¶ Then goeth he ●arther and saith un this wise.  
I will also agree that in the congregation of the clergy, to god's honour graciously gathered together: the good assistance of the spirit of god, according to Chrys●es promise/ will be as verily present and assystente with them● as it was with his blessed apostles/ if they order themself in meekness and charity and put all their trust in g●d, as the apostles did. But if they will trust 〈◊〉 their own wit and in worldly policy: then may they lightly lose the spirit of god. And whether it were so at the making of the laws, which master More speaketh of concerning heresy or not, I can not tel● but this will I say, that if they were not go●d and reasonable in themself at the fyrs●e making, that they were never made by the assistance of the spirit of god. And surely I can not then see, how the usage and long continuance of them can ratyfye or confirm them. For as it is of an evil custom, that the longer it is used, the greater is the offence: so i● it of an evil law. And like as an evil custom is to be put away, so it is of an evil law.  
¶ Of what strength the general counsels be, & whether we may in any of them by laufulorder gathered together, put any diffydence or mistrust/ and if we may then in what manner things, and in what wise they bind, & whom, & how long: I shall not need for this matter to dispute with this good man. And all his doubt concerning the said laws, whither they be reasonable or not, and whether the continuance of them be good or not: in all these things have I so confuted this good man all ready, that these words of his can serve of nought. But yet to make it seem that he sa●d some what/ and that no law of the church which he hath here impugned, made against heretics, was either ratified or approved in this realm: ye shall hear how properlyly he proveth. Lo good reader's ●hese are his words.  
And the lawe affirmed by usage and agreement of the people be the laws of ●astynge and keeping of holidays, and such other as the people of their free agreement accept and agree unto: but these laws made for punishment of heresies were never agreed by a comen assent of the people, but that some particular persons/ whereof some have been guilty/ and some peradventure not guilty/ have been punished thereby right sore against their wills. And that can not be a confirmation of them that so agree against their will. But as to them that do the correction, it y● a confirmation: for they do it with their good will. And though that correction were a ●uffycyent confirmation, as against them that be so punished: yet it can not be a confirmation to make the law approved for all the residue of the people.  
I can not see therefore that any ratyfyeng, agreeing, or confirming of the people can be pr●u●d in though laws, concerning the correction for heresy:  
¶ Did ever any man good readers here such another reason as this is? He denieth not but that the suyle ex officio, and the order taken in the general counsel, and the other farther proceedings against heretics, according to the comen received spiritual laws, have been usually long accustomed in this realm/ & by the princes of the same & generally by all the people by comen usage accepted/ and over that, by plain parliament laws and orders made for all temporal officers to assist the ordinaries therein, and to put the offenders in execution there upon and knowing well all this, be dyssymuleth it every whit, & saith not one word thereto/ but argueth that it was never ratified in this realm, because the heretics that are for heresy punished, be burned against their will, and agree not themself thereto. This reason will I never labour to confute. For if any man be so mad to like it, I were almost as mad as he if I would reason with him.  
¶ After this he resorteth again to the unreasonableness of the laws/ and proveth them unreasonable, by the sentence of his own conceit. For these are his words.  
And then whether the laws in themself be good & indifferent or not, I will remit the judgement in that behalf to them that have authority. But to show my conceit therein, I shall with good will even as my conscience moveth me to/ & that is, that I could never see, that it was reasonable to be accepted as a law/ that a man should be accused & know not his acuser. And that it is yet more unreasonable that a man should be condemned/ and know not the the witness that condemned him. Also that a man upon suspection should be driven to make his purgation at the will of the ordinary, or be accursed: Or that a perjured witness should condemn him, that he had cleared afore: That a great offender and a le●se offender should have one like punishment, if they renunced: or be a like arrested and put in prison: I never saw no indysferencye in it.  
¶ Now good readers as for the conceit that the good conscience of this man hath conceived, is of very trowth but even a very poor conceit/ as in the said chapters the xu the xvi and the xvii every man may soon perceive.  
¶ How be it in the last point that he findeth so great a fault, that a greater offender and a less off●der, should have one like punishment, this man looked not well about him when he wrote that word. For when the thing is well looked on/ the weight of his reason will fall upon the wrong side, and all against his mind. For where so ever a greater offender and a less offender be both punished alike: if the greater offender have no more pain than the less hath deserved, there is the order some what less sharp than it should be/ but yet not unrighteous. For if it were, than were the laws of this realm unlawful, that hang up him that doth but rob a man, as well as him that robbeth him and killeth him to. Now so is it in the spiritual law, that when two do both renounce their heresy, and abjure and bear faggots both, if the tone held ten heresies and the t'other but twain, the greater offender hath no more pain than the less deserveth. And therefore if this man in that case complain: this complaint (as I said) turneth un the other side/ and findeth the fault in that, that whe●● the less offender beareth one faggot, the greater beareth not five, if their bodies be like of strength.  
¶ How ●e it good readers all this ta●e of his is to no purpose at all. For in the spiritual law, they way the offences/ and consider the circumstances, and enjoin the penance after the weygth or gravity of the trespass/ and for emprysoning use to put no man to it, but where good reason would not suffer him walk abroad. And therefore I suppose/ that when the man was writing this/ his wytle was walking toward the holy land. For if he wold● say that he meaneth by the less offender and the more offender, such twain as abjure both, and bear fa●ottes both, wh●re the tone was worthy and the t'other not worthy at all: I say that neither his words will maintain any such meaning (for he speaketh generally of the less off●der & the more) nor also he proveth none such but by his slanderous some says, which have been plain proved false.  
¶ Than goeth he ferther and knitteth up all the chapter with this goodly conclusion.  
And if any man will say that these reasons will give a boldness t● heretics: truly I will not ●ully make answer thereto. But this will I say, that I think verily that they will give a boldness to truth and teew men. And verily I have herd say, that it were better to suffer an offender g● unpunished, than to punish him vnryghtuo●sely and against due order of justice.  
¶ Mark good readers here for our lords sake, what manner of reason this is. The thing that himself very well perceiveth to be the very weight and pith of all the matter, & therefore at last objecteth it against himself, as a thing that had need to be soiled, what answer doth he make unto it? He saith he will not answer it fully. In faith that is spoken very dully: well, sith so great weight hangeth on it, if he would not answer it fully, he should have answered at the lest wise half. If not half, a fourth part yet, or a fifth part at the least. For this that he saith, answereth no part at all. For two things he saith/ one that though he can not say nay, but that his reasons if they be followed, shall give a boldness to heretics: yet he thinketh they shall also give boldness to trowth and true men. And by my trowth I think weryly un the other side, that if heretics have boldness given them, and (as they thereby soon shall) take courage and much increase, they shall make the trowth shrink, and many true men afeard. And if the giving boldness to falsed, shall give boldness to troth/ assay than and give boldness/ and than look whither true men shall wax the bolder by it.  
¶ The second thing that he saith is this, which yet he doth not affirm but saith he hath herd it said, that it were better to suffer an offender go unpunished, than punish him unrightuousely and against due order of justice.  
¶ This were somewhat prettily said, if this good man had proved that heretics might not be punished by those laws, but unryghtuousely and against the order of justice. But than how hath he proved that? By no mean in this world but twain. The tone, that it is not righteous nor indifferent, that a greater offender and a less offender should be punished, imprisoned, or arrested like/ which unreasonable reason oppugneth plainly in all crimynall causes almost, all the laws of this realm and yet helpeth not his matter, but impaireth it much, as a little here before I have well & clearly proved.  
¶ His other reason is his general reason that is his whole ground, where upon he b●yldeth against all those laws all his whole matter/ that is to wit, that by those laws which are made for punishment of heretics, it may sometime fortune that a man may be punished which is no heretic in d●de.  
¶ Now is this reason so unreasonable to be laid for a reason to ●ake away a law, that if it were admitted for reason, it could suffer neither in this realm, nor in any realm else any law stand in this world, that all the wits in this world could imagine or devise, for any manner punishment of ungracious folk. And albe it that of such laws some may be reform from the worse unto the better/ though never fully to such point, but that an innocent may take harm: yet both by reason and experience it appeareth plainly, that these laws which he would have changed and made more easy, can never have any good change, but by making them more straight.  
¶ And thus hath this good man soreoversene himself, more I trow than twenty times in his twenty chapter.   

The xxi chapter.  
IN his xxi chapter beginning in the lxxxiiii leaf, because I said in mine apology that there be few parts in his book of division, that shall if they be well considered, appear so good at length, as they seem to some men at the first sight and at superfycyall reading: he provoketh me to show what other fawtes I find therein. And than to prick me forward, he bringeth forth two or three things, which he sayeth it seemeth most likely that I should mean. But wherefore it should be most likely that I should mean those things/ thereof showeth he no thing/ but leaveth folk occasion to think, that his own mind mysgea●th him in those things. For me hath he never herd make any business of them.  
¶ And afterward in the leaf .91. again he provoketh me to the same. And there he reciteth how many chapters of his I meddle not withal/ wherein he might have made a shorter work if he would have let them stand that I touched not/ and have spoken of them only that I touched. For they were very few, as he that was very unwilling to have touched any one at all, save for the much evil that covertely was cloaked in them, And for the withdrawing of that cloak that men might the better see what it meant: I touched the first chapter for a show, and the vii, and the viii, for that they laboured to the great decay of the catholic faith, to put away or change in to worse the most special good laws, both of the whole church and of this realm, that have been made and observed long for the preservation thereof. And the first chapter was in effect nothing else, but by false slanderous surmises against the ordynaries (as though they myshandeled men for heresy) a shrewd preparative to it. And therefore leaving his other trifles alone: I answered in effect only these, of which so much harm might grow. which things if they had been out of his book, all the remanaunt good and bad together, should have gone forth for me/ and therefore yet so shall they: For I purpose not to embuse myself with confuting of every fault that I find in every man's book. I should have than over much a do.  
¶ Nor I will not dispraise or deprave any thing that I think good either in his book or in any man's else. And therefore I have in mine apology said expressly, that he saith some things well. But for as much as there be many things nought to: I give therefore the reader warning not to walk away with them over hastily, but read them with judgement and advise them well/ and not believe every spirit, but prove whither it be of god or not/ and that that is good take/ and that that is evil, let it go to the devil.  
¶ I well allow therefore and like not a little the great good mind of Salem toward the vaynquysshing of the great turk/ and conquering of the holy land, wherein he spendeth the other three chapters of his book. But I miss like much again, that as he would dilate the faith, by force of sword in far countries hence: so he laboureth to change and take away the good & wholesome laws, whereby the faith is preserved here at home.  
¶ I like also marvelously well, that such points of the catholic faith as heretics now labour to destroy, as praying to saints, pilgrimage, and purgatory, & the sacraments, and specially the blessed sacrament of the altar, whereof in the lxxxvi. leaf he speaketh so well, that as help me god it died me good to read it: this I say liketh me marvelously well, that the right faith of these points he confesseth so well and so fully for his own person. But the better opinion that I have of his own person therein, the more sorry am I to see, that his books are by some shrewd counsel handled in such wise, as if they were followed/ would make the faith decay and perish in many other folk. This is the great thing that in his books grieveth me.  
¶ For as for the point that he speaketh of in the leaf. 91, of that that the priests should eat no flesh fro quinquagesime to Easter: I take it for a matter as small as he doth I. But than he asketh me wherefore in the xxxi chapter of mine apology beginning in the .175. leaf, I make so great a matter of it. Who so lysne to read the chapter, shall see that I wrote it not all in vain, nor show myself unwilling that the prestis should do it neither, though they be not bounden to it. But the less that the weight of the matter was/ the more cause this man gave me to speak thereof. For the more was he to blame to put that and other such small matters as that is, for causes of so great a division, as he surmyseth that this is. This was lo the cause that made me to speak thereof. which cause this man gave himself/ and therefore needeth not to marvel as he doth, wherefore I spoke thereof.  
¶ And therefore thus have I good readers now replied to every chapter of his book by row, save only the last three which go about a good voyage into the holy land, a great way far of fro me. And I have not leaped to & fro, now forward, now backward, in such manner as he playeth in his answer made unto me, without either order kept or cause appearing wherefore, save only the cause that every man may spy, that he would not have it seen what places he left untouched. Which is in a manner the most part of all together, that in my book touched the three chapters of his. And I have on the other side not left any one piece unproved, that myself spoke of before, or that any thing pertained unto me.  
¶ And therefore where as in the beginning of the xxii chapter, Symkyn Salem giveth his sentence upon the said answer to the said apology, and alloweth the said answer well: me thinketh that if he considered not only how much he hath left unanswered, & how much of his own words undefended, which he nothing hath touched at all/ but over that how feebly he hath defended those things that he hath touched here: Salem being indifferent, had been like to have allowed it but a little.  
¶ For setting aside for the while all the remanant, if he go but to the very pryncypal point alone, wherein he laboureth to change and put away those good laws/ the change whereof (such as he deviseth) the decay of the catholic faith and the increase of heresies would follow: in that point alone, I say we lay against him, the comen consent of this realm. And he layeth his own reason against it. We lay against him the consent of the general counsel. And against this he layeth his own reason. We lay against him the general approbation of all christen realms. And against this he layeth his own reason. And what is his own irrefragable reason that he layeth against all this? Surely no more as you see, but that by those laws an innocent may sometime take wrong. Against this reason we lay him, that if this reason should stand, than against malefactors there could no law stand. We lay against it also that by his devices if they were followed, by the increase of heresies many innocentes must needs take much more wrong.  
¶ To this answereth he, that he will not answer that. And now when Salem seeth that he can not answer that, & seeth that all the weigth of the matter hangeth upon that: than Sym Salem giveth sentence that he hath answered very well. But surely if such answering be well/ I wot not which way a man might answer ill  
¶ And therefore where as Symkyn Salem saith, that if this good man will, he will cause a friend of his answer all the remanant: he may do this good man a much more friendly turn, if he make his friend answer this better first, that this good man hath answered already. How be it if they list thus to give over this, and assay what they can say better to any other piece: let them a god's name hardly go to for me. And if they say any thing meetly to the matter, I will put no friend to pain to make them answer/ but at leisure convenient shall answer them myself. And where they say well/ I will not let to say so. And where they say wrong/ I will not let to tell them. But on the other side if they go no better to work, nor no nearer to the matter, than this man hath done: I shall peradventure let them even alone/ and let them like their writing themself, and no man else.  
¶ But now letting pass all special that points: I shall answer the generaltyes that this good man speaketh of. Form in the leaf xc these are his words.  
And now shall I say somewhat farther in a generalytye, as master More hath done/ and that y● t●is: that all that I speak in the said treatise, was to appease this division/ and not to begin any, ne●● continue it. And therefore how they can save their conscience/ that say I did rather intend a division then agreement, I can not tell/ their one conscy●nce shall be judge. And I intended also somewhat to m●●e that might be occasion to put away abusy●●●, evil examplys, and heresies: and not to ●●cr●ase them or maintain them I dare boldly say.  
¶ To this I answer, that it neither was nor is my mind, that men should think that he meant e●yl himself, as I have in many placis of mine apology testified. But verily I thought & yet think, that by some wily shrewis his book was so miss handled, that it meant nought, though he meant well. For where as he sayeth that with his book of division, all his purpose was to appease division: I will not contend with him upon his own mind. But surely this will I say, that if I had been of the mind to sow and set forth division: I would have used even the self same ways to kindle it, that he used (as he saith) to quench it.  
¶ Then goeth he farther and saith.  
And farther as master More knoweth better than I, mentire est contra mentem ire, that is to say to lie is when a man sayeth against his own mind/ & in good faith in all that treatise, I speak nothing but that I thought was true.  
¶ To this I answer, that in deed such a thing I have red, and as I remember in Aulus Gellius. Which thing though I have now no leisure to look for: yet two points I remember thereof. One that it is there mentiri and not mentire/ which infynytyve mode in what book of grammar this good man hath found, I can not tell. I was afeard it had been overseen in the prenting. But I have looked the corrections, and there find I no fault found therein.  
¶ The other point I remember that there is a difference put between m●ntiri & mendacium dicere, that is as we might say/ between him that wittingly lieth, and him that telleth a lie weening that it were true. And here it is said, wittingly not to tell a lie, pertaineth to a good man. And not to tell a lie unware, is the part of a wise man. And surely sith the scripture sayeth that he that shortly believeth is over light: this good man to believe so many lies so soon, and with so many some says to set them forth in print, to the rebuke and slander of the spiritual judges, and make men ween they miss handled men for heresies, though the man's innocent mind made the sin the less, yet was the thing at the lest no less, than a very great lightness, ye and also a great proof toward the reproof of his words that follow next, where he goeth farther thus.  
And farther I will ascertain master More a● far as in me is, that I neither had any soot shrews counlayle, ne any evil counsel at the making of the said treatise, which he calleth the book of division (as is said before)  
¶ To this I answer, that all be it this good man and I be at much variance here in diverse things: yet for the good and plain profession of the catholic faith that I find in him, in good faith I much better love him then in that point to believe him. For if he said therein true, then were all the faults only his own/ in which as I have often said, I much rather think, that some soot shrews have deceived him.  
¶ And beside sundry other things that lead me so to think, one very strong thing is this, that every man may well see by his book, that all such as have resorted to him to tell him any such things, as under some says he put out again, have alway told him evil/ and never told him good. And of miss handling for heresies have ever told him lies, and never told him true. For where as the punishment for heresies hath been very little any where, save even here at hand, and here but right done to them, and that with much favour to: they have made him good silly soul believe, that ordinaries miss handle men for heresy in manner thorough out the realm.  
¶ Also where as such slanderous clamour hath been sundry times of late in all that ever complained, plainly proved false before the kings most honourable counsel, not one man came to tell him nothing thereof, nor not one some say thereof written in all his book/ and over this where as mine own self have plainly told him ●he same things in mine apology by writing: yet (which most marvel were of all, save for such wily shrews) every man may well see that he neu●r red it. For he saith not one word thereto. And therefore it is eth to perceive what so ever himself say which is loath of his goodness to put other folk in fault, that there be some wily shrews so much about him, that they neither suffer him any thing to here but that themself list to tell him, nor yet any thing to read, but where themself list to turn him.  
¶ And now sith I have here answered these generalytyes of his: I will not long encumbre you with any generaltyes of mine own, but generally I would that all were well. And so help me my saviour & none other wise, but as I would wish none heretic one halfpennyworth harm, that had clearly left his heresy, and were well tu●ned to god. But on the other side, who so stick still therein: rather would I wish him sorrow to his sin, whereby there are many folk many times amended, then prosperously to proceed in his mischief to the loss of his own soul and other men's to. And toward that point, against all male factors in the spirituality and the temporalty to, would I wish all good folk of both parts to agree, and each love other well, and stick fast to the faith, which were like sore to decay by the change of these good laws that this good man goeth about to destroy. For whose unreasonableness therein the better to be perceived, with the danger and apparel that would ensue thereon: I will desire you good readers to resort to mine apology/ and beginning at the leaf. 270, read unto the leaf. 287. wherein you shall I trust be well and fully satisfied. And unto all that ever is in all that spoken: this man hath nothing said.  
¶ And where as in confuting the faults that this man findeth in the suit ex officio, and the laws made against heretics, I have used some examples of the comen law, which this man hath laboured to prove unlike/ and I have therein clearly confuted him a fresh: it may peradventure happen that he will now take another way therein, and say that in such points those spiritual laws may be reform, and those temporal to.  
¶ How be it if he so say, but if men forget what hath been said before: else shall they see that his saying will not serve him.  
¶ For first as I have said ofter than ones all ready, the same things in the comen law be not to be changed. For if they be: there shall come thereof more harm than good. And if it happen one innocent to take harm by the law: there shall five for one take more harm by the change.  
¶ More over if we should for that cause change those temporal laws, that is to wit because some innocent may sometime take harm by them: we must change by the same reason, all that old used law that a man may be arrested and remain in prison till he find sureties for the peace, upon the bare oath of his enemy that saith he is a feared of him. For by that law may some time an innocent take harm to. And yet must that law stand if we do well. For else shall there by the change, more innocentes take more harm.  
¶ What trouble have there many men in wales, by that they be compelled to be bounden to the peace, both for themself and for their servants and other friends to? And yet is the order there so necessary that in many lordships it may not be forborn.  
¶ And surely if we fall to changing laws upon the simple ground: we must then change so many that it would not be well.  
¶ Bysydes this if men should reform and change a law, because that an innocent may sometime take harm thereby: then must they when they have changed it, change it yet again/ & after that change, yet change it again/ & so forth change after change and never cease changing till the world be all changed at the day of doom For never can all the wits that are in it, make any one penal law/ such that none innocent may take harm thereby.  
¶ How be it if a new law were drawn and put forth to be made against any such mischief as would else do much harm: good reason it were to take an exception to the bill, and show that innocent●s might be much harmed by this point or that/ and therewith provide the remedy and put it in the law, and stop as many such gaps as then could be spied. Ye and if after the law made men foud notable harm, that good folk were much wronged by it/ and the law such that it either might be forborn, or else the means found to be changed to the better: good reason would it to make provision for it.  
¶ But surely to come forth as this man cometh here, against so good laws, so well made, and by so great authority, so long approved thorough the whole corpse of christendom, in this realm ratyfyed specially by parliament, and that upon a proof not without great ground & cause, ever sins founden so profitable for preservation of the faith, and proved see necessary upon this man's own devices, that without great increase of heresies they can not be forborn/ nor never can be changed but either to the straighter or else to the worse: to come now forth and for appeasing of division, so we first a slander that may make division, and than labour to change those laws, upon none other ground but only that an innocent may hap to take harm by mean of false judges, and than prove not any wrong done, but by false some says only, against which false some says the troth is proved contrary, both by just examination before the kings counsel, and over that plainly by this one point also, which no man can deny, that there is no law provided against so great a crime, by which law less people have in this realm be punished: therefore to come now thus as this good man doth, and procure the change of these laws, so old, so good, and so necessary, and to make them more easy, wherewith heretics would war bold, which thing himself (as you see) denieth not in the end: what is this good christian readers, but to procure that the catholic christian faith, might fade and fall away?  
¶ And yet as for this man himself to tell you for conclusion what I think/ all be it there are as you see right evil and perilous things in his books, with devices that would make heresies increase: yet sith he professyth so plainly the catholic christian faith, and by his exhortation also toward the conquest of the holy land, declareth his mind zealous and fervent toward it, I rather believe though himself thereto say nay, that in those things which he writeth so perilous and so nought, some wily shrews beguile the good innocent man, than that himself in his own mind, mean all that harm.  
¶ But yet for as much as in this point, without sight of man's heart we can but go by guess/ & who so goth by guess, may be deceived (For (as himself saith) a wolf may look simply lapte in a sheeps skin) I shall therefore trust the best, and leave the troth to god. And concerning such evil writings, sith it must needs be, that he wrote them either deceived by some shrews, or else but of himself/ I can no more do for him, but heartily pray for him thus. If shrews deceive him: god send them shortly from him. If he wrote them of his own mind: than sith the things be nought, he wrote them either of evil will, or of oversight. If he wrote them of malice/ god give the evil man more grace. If he wrote them of folly: god give the good man more wit.  
¶ And thus I beseech our lord send us everichone, both the spiritual and the temporal to, both wit and grace to agree together in goodness, and each to love other, and each for other to pray/ and for those that of both parts are passed into purgatory, and there pray for us as we pray here for them, that they and we both thorough the merits of Christ'S bitter passion, may both with our own prayers, and the intercession of all holy saints in heaven, avoiding the eternal fire of hell, have pity powered upon us in the very fire of purgatory, which in those two places verily burneth souls. And finally for our faith and good works, which his grace (working with the wills of those the wit have) giveth each good man here: good give us in heaven together everlasting glory.    

¶ printed by w. Rastell in Fleetstreet in saint Bridys' church yard, the year of our lord. 1533.  
Cum privilegio   

The faults escaped in the printing of the first part of this book.  
fo. pa. li. the faults. the amendementes iii. two. xxii. in ten sheets in xii sheets nor    nor in ten in xii v. two. vi. oloquye obloquy viii. i. two. three two x. i. x. an a ano a xii. two. xii. wit to wit into xiii. two. xvi. fool full xv. i●. i. appear ●● by appear by xviii. i. seven. fail which fail to fall which xx. two. xxi. in containeth it containeth xxii i. x. that than xxv. two. two. of a true of true xxv. two. xi. A And xxxiii. two. nineteen. all also xxxix. i. xv. words worde● were xl. two. x. if but if xlii. two. v. poverty/ and poverty, nor would them no less than they have/ and xliiii. two. v. hycaus● because xlv. two. xvi judge judged xlv. two. xviii. person's priests xlvi. i. i. between priests between other priests xlvi. i. vi. the priests the secular priests xlviii. two. xx. folk priests ●●. two. ix. thereto therewith lxi. two. xxii● i● to the is the lxvii. i. v●. no more I no more lxx. i. xiv. noneces no neces lxxxiii. i. xvi. advowter adultery lxxxv. i. iiii. all talking all such talking lxxxv. two. xiii found fond lxxxvi. two. xii. , as , is lxxxvii. i. iiii. / would / they would lxxxvii. two. xxxiii. there farther lxxxviii. i. xxii. proved provided ci. i. xxii this hy●   

The faults escaped in the second part.  
fo. pa. li. the faults. the amendementes iiii. i. nineteen. plain so plain. v. two. i. certain a certain v. two. iiii. setted setteth v. two. vi. his ground & his foundation is this All this must be in the great letter seven. ●i. xi. us thereto us viii. i. v. Be By xxi. two. xiii. in his hath in hy● xxvii. i. seven. admonicula adminicula xxviii. two. iii. , made , is made xxxvii. i. viii. meaneth meaneth not xxxvii. two. xii. had it did it xli. i. iii. it provided it was provided xlvii. i. xxiii. dialogue opologye xlviii. i. v. showeth showed xlix. i. nineteen. so to some to l. two. ix. was was not lvi. ●. viii. them then lx. two. xxi. proveth prove yet lxii j v the contrary without some the contrary, that is to wit that he will not trust a judge so well: this can he not say● without some lxvii. j xviii. felony, for felony, or for lxxi. ij. seven. Almaigne of Almaigne lxxii. j two. Chryst/ with all whose Chryst with all/ whose lxxii. two. xxi. lacys lanies lxxiiii. two. viii. But For lxxv two. xiii. if y● lxxvi●. two. viii. than that lxxx. i. xxii. If he If we lxxx two. xiiii. up upon lxxxiii two. xv. & xvi. testify be testified lxxxvii. two. two. reason that reason xcv. two. v. though thought xcviii. two. xxiii an english english ciii. two. xxiiii. have any lo●e have lo●e ciiii. two. xi. them then cxi. j xi. that I and I cxi. two. xxii found fond cxviii. j iii. doubt not also doubt also cxvii●. two xviii. examination excommunication cxxvi. j xviii. nineteen. xviii. cxxxi. j x. so double double cxxxv. j xx. purpose purpose. cxxxix. two. xii. be high be so high cxlvi. j viii. than doth than he doth cl. j xv. ble tably clii. j i●ii. all thing evil all thing well clii. j v. I first finish I fynyshe ●lix j xiii boldness/ and boldness to theule/ and clxi. two. xiiii. embuse embysye clxiii. two. xii. touched thee is touched of th● clxv two. j &. two. all special the all the special clxvi. two. x. And here And the●e   

Sir Thomas More knight to the christian reader.  
AFter these faults of the prenter escaped in this book, I shall not let good readers to give you like warning of one fault of mine own, escaped me in the beginning of this book. In the xiii leaf whereof, and in the first side, cancel and put out one of those oversyghtes that I lay to the pacifier, in those ix lines, of which the first is the ix line of the same side, and the last is the xviii For of troth not the pacifier but myself was overseen in that place with a little haste, in miss remembering one word of his. For where as he saith in the person of Byzance, in the third leaf of Salem and byzance. I will cause it to be written into this dialogue word for word as it is come to my hands: I forgot when I answered it that he said, as it is come/ and took it as though he said as it cometh to mine hands.  
And therefore albe it that I have known many that have red it, of which I never found any that found it: yet sith it happened me lately ●o look thereon & find mine oversight myself, I would in no wise leave it good reader unreformed. Nor never purpose while I live, where so ever I may perceive, either mine adversary to say well, or myself to have said otherwise, to let for us both indifferently to declare and say the truth.  
And surely if they would use the self same honest pl●●ne truth toward me: you should soon see good readers all our contentions ended. For than should you see, that like as I have not letted after mine apology, to declare that Tyndale had somewhat amended and assuaged in one point, his formare evil assertions concerning satisfaction: so should he confess the troth that I had truly touched him/ and that himself had sore erred, as well in the remanant thereof as in all his other heresies. And than also, like as I let not here for the pacyfyers' part to declare myself overseen with haste in this one point: so should he not let well & honestly to say the troth on the other side, & confess himself very far onersene with long leisure, in all the remanaunt by side. I say not in all that he saith, but in all that is debated between us.  
I wot well the best horse were he which were so sure of foot that run he never so fast would never in his life neither fall nor ●●●̄ble. But sith we can find no●e so sure: that horse is not much to be mysselyked, which that with courage & pricking forth in haste, happing for all his four feet sometime to cache a fall, getteth up again lightly by himself, without touch of spur or any check of the bridle. No nor yet that horse to be cast away neither, that getteth up a●ayne apace with the cheek of them both. Now like a● with the best kind can I not compare: so of the third sort at the lest wise will I never fail to be, that is to wit rise & reform myself, when any man she● me my fault. And as near as I can 〈◊〉 I search them/ & as soon as I spy the● before any man control them● aryse● and as I now do mine own self reform them. which kind is you wot well next unto the best. But yet on the other side, of all mine adversaries could I never hitherto find any one, but when he catcheth on●● a fall, a●●●he ●●theym hath caughey full man●● there lieth he still tumbling & toltring in mire, and neither spur nor brydyll can one inch prevail/ but as though they were not fallen in a puddle of dirt, but rubbed & laid in litter under the manger at their ease, they whine & they bite, and they kick, and they sp●●ne at him that would help them vp●e: And that is yet a fourth kind, the worst ye wo●e●●ell that can be.  
Finis.