¶ A dialogue of sir Thomas More knight: one of the counsel of our sovereign lord the king & chancellor of his duchy of Lancaster. wherein be treated divers matters/ as of the veneration & worship of images & relics/ praying to saints/ & going on pilgrimage. with many other things touching the pestilent sect of Luther and Tyndale/ by the tone by-gone in Saxony/ and by the other laboured to be brought in to england   

The preface  
¶ it is Turrian old said saw/ that one bysynes bygettyth and bringeth forth another. which proverb as it happeth I find very true by myself/ which have been fain by occasion first of one busygnes a●●er to take the second/ and upon the second now to take the third. For where as a right worshipful friend of mine sent ●ny unto me a secret sure friend of his with certain credence to be declared unto me/ touching many such matters as being in deed very certain and out of doubt/ be nevertheless of late by lewd people put in questy on/ the specyaltees whereof do so farforth in the furst chapter of this book appear/ that we shall here need no rehearsal thereof/ I thought it first Enough to tell the messenger my mind by mouth/ accounting that af●er our communication ended/ I should never need further business therein. But after that the messenger was departed/ & I felt my stomach well eased/ in that I reckoned all my labour done/ by thinking myself a little while thereon/ my business that I took for finished I found very far fro that point and little more than begun. For when I considered what the matters were/ and how many great things had been treated between the messenger and me/ and in what manner fashyone/ albe it I mistrusted not his good will/ and very well trusted his wit/ his learning/ well serving him to the perseving and reporting of our communication/ yet finding our treaty so diverse and so long/ and sometime such wise intrycate that myself could not without labour call it orderly to mind/ me thought I had not well done without writing to trust his only memory/ namely sith sum partis of the matter be such of themself as rather need to be attentely red & advised/ than hourly hard and passed over. And over this I considered that though I nothing suspect the messenger/ as in good faith I do not/ and to say the truth am of myself so little mystrusting/ that he were ●●ke very plainly to show himself nought whom I should take for bad/ yet sith no man can look in to a nother's breast/ as it is therefore well done to dame the best/ so were it not mich amiss in such wise to provide for the worst/ as (if a man hap to be worse than we take him for) our good opinion turn us to none harm. For this cause me thought that for the more surety my part were to send our communication to my said friend in writing. whereby if it had happened that his messenger had for any sinister fauou● borne toward the wrong side purposely mangled the matter/ his master should not only know the truth/ but also have occasion the better be ware of his messenger/ which else might hap to hurt while he were mystaken for good. Now when I had upon this delyberation taken with myself/ written all the matter and sent it to my friend/ than had I me thought all done and my mind full set at rest. But that rest rested not long. For soon after was it showed me that of my writing were written diverse copies/ And one also carried over the se. where when I remembered what a shrewd sort of our apostatas are assembled/ part run out of religion/ and all run out of the right faith/ me thought great apparel might arise if sum of that company which are confedered & conspired to gether in the sow●ynge & setting forth of Luther's pestilent he resyes in this realm/ should maliciously change my words to the worse/ and so put in print my book framed after their fantasy. which when I would afterward reprove & show the difference/ I might peradventure seem for the colour of my cause to have amended mine own upon the sight of theirs. For eschewing whereof I amnow driven as I say to this third business of publishing and putting my book in print myself. whereby their entrepryse if they should any such intent/ shall I trust be prevented and frustrate. And this have I done not all of mine own head/ but after the counsel of other more than one. whose advice and counsel for their wisdom & learning I asked in that byhalf/ and which have at my request vouchesaufed to read over the book ere I did put it forth. For albeit that I dare be somewhat bold to comen in familiar manner with such as for their fantasy like to ask me of such matters any question according to the council of saint Poule/ bidding us be ready to give a reckoning and to show a reasonable cause to every man of the faith and hope that we have/ yet to make & put forth any book wherein were treated any such things as to which our faith/ would I not presume but if better learned than myself should think it either profitable or at the lestwyse harmless. To whose examination and judgement I did the more studiously submit this work for two things in special among diverse other. The one for the liberal allegations of the messenger for the wrong part so laid out at large/ that of myself I stood half in a doubt whither it were convenient to rehearse the words of any man so honly and in manner sometime unreverently spoken against God's holy halows and their reverent memories. The t'other was certain taly● & merry words which he mynglid with his matter/ & sum such on mine own part among as occasion ●ell in communication. In which albe it I saw none harm/ yet somewhat doubted I lest they should unto sad men seem over light & wanton for the weight and gravity of such an erenest matter. wherefore in these two points though I had all ready seen some ensamples of right holy men/ which in their books answering to thobjections of heretics in their time have not letted to rehearse the very formal words of them whose writings they made answer to/ being sometime of such manner & sort as a good man would not well bear/ and have not also letted to write a merry word in a right earnest work/ of which two things I could out of godly men's books and holy saints works gether a good sort/ yet in mine own work I determined that I would nothing allow nor defend that the judgement of other virtuous and cunning men would in any wise miss like. And therefore after that such had red it and severally said their advice/ I found as it often happeth/ that sum thing which one wise and well learned man would have out/ twain of like wisdom and learning specially would have in/ neither side lacking good and probable reason for their part. wherefore sith it became not me to be judge over the judgement of them whom I took and chose for my judges/ being such of themself as hard were it for any man to say which of them before the other he could in erudyc●on wit or prudence any thing prefer/ I could no ferther go but lean to the more part. which I so farforth have followed/ that like wise as I diverse things put out or changed by their good advice & counsel/ so let I nothing stand in this book/ but such as twain advised me specially to let stand/ against any one that any doubt moved me to the contrary. And thus much have I thought necessary for my declaration and excuse to advertise you all that shall happen to read this rude simple work/ praying you of patience and pardon/ whom god of his especial grace grant as much profit in the reading/ as my poor heart hath mente you and entendede in the making.   


The furst chapter  
¶ The letter of credence sent from his friend by a trusty secret messenger● with the letter of the authore answering the same. The declara●yō of of the credence by the mouth of the messenger whereupon the matter of all the hole work dependeth.  

¶ The letter of credence  
MAster chancellor as heartily as I possible can I recomend me to you. Not without a thousand thanks for your good company when we were last to gether. In which for as much as it liked you to spend sum of your time with me in familiar communication/ whereof sum part I trust so to remember as myself shall be the better and some other never the worse/ which shall have cause and have all ready to give you great thank therefore/ I am bold at this time to send you my special secret friend this bearer to break with you somewhat ferther/ partly of the same matters partly of sum other such as are happened there sins/ whereof great speech and rumour runneth here/ whereby ye shall have occasion more at length if your leisure will serve to touch certain dowtes moved sins of the matters treated between us before. wherein were it not for your other business I would be hold on your goodness to desire you to take good time 〈◊〉 him. And yet never the less do require you heartily as your leisure will serve you to satisfy him at the the full. For he shall how long so ever he tarry therefore/ give attendance unto you days & hours as ye may spare him tyme. which can not in these things be but well bestowed/ considering that the matters be such and so to wching to god/ as they were well worthy to set worldly business aside specially in such need. For I assure you some folk here tal● very strangely of the things that he shall move you/ Not only for such words as they tell that come from thence/ but also most especially through tho●casyon of some letters lewdly written hither out of london by a priest or t●● whom they take here for honest. But what so ever any man tell or write/ I shall for the confidence & trust that I have in you surely take and tell forth for the very truth what so ever ye shall affirm unto my friend/ whom I send unto you not so much because I may not come myself (how beyt therefore to) as for because I long to have him talk with you. To whom what so ever ye say reckon it said to myself/ Not only for his troth and secretness/ but also for his memory. with whom to common I trust shall not mislike you. For either mine affection blindeth me/ or ye shall find him wise/ and as other say that can better judge it than I/ more than meanly learned/ with one thing added wherewith ye be wont well to be content/ a very merry wit. He is of naturre nothing tongue tayed. And I have in these matters beden him be bold with out any straining of courtesy/ whereof the ceremonies in disputation marryth much of the matter/ while one studieth more how he may behave him than what he shall say. I have I say therefore boden him more to mind his matter than his courtesy/ ● freely to lay forth not only what he thinketh/ but also what him list/ giving no foot in dysputing unto your authority but if he be born back with reason. Thus may ye see I am bold on your goodness to put you to labour and business/ and send one to face you in your own house. But so much am that I bolder/ for that in such chalengꝭ I know you for a ready and sure defender. And of such labour your wisdom wel● seeth that god is the rewarder/ who long preserve you & all yours.   

¶ The letter of the author sent with the book.  
¶ Right worshipful sir after most hearty recommendation/ albe it that of late I sent you my poor mind by the mouth of your trusty friend/ to whom ye desired me by your letters to give no less credence than to yourself/ concerning all such things as he broke of & communed with me in your behalf/ & that for the confidence that ye have in him/ the wit & learning that I found in him/ & honesty that I so much the more think him to be of/ in that I perceive you being of such wisdom & virtue/ to have him in so speryall trust/ I neither do nor can believe the contrary but that he hath of all our communication made you faithfully/ plain/ & full report/ yet sith I suppose in myself that if we had mought conveniently come to gether ye would rather have chosin to have hard my mind of mine own mouth than by the mean of another/ I have sinnis in these few days in which I have been at home put the matter in writing/ to th'end ye may not only here it by the mouth of your friend/ but also which better is than suddenly ones to here it of mine own mouth/ read it if ye list more often at your best leisure advisedly from mine own pen. which thing I verily thought myself so much the more bound to do/ for that it liked you of your special favour & affection toward me so greatly to regard and esteem my myn● & answer in those matters/ that no rumour there running or tallies in your country told or letters thither written nor reasons or arguments there made to the contrary/ should let or with ●●ande but that ye would as ye wrote take that thing for undoubted troth that I should by your friended acertayn you. And surely sir in thus point ye may make yourself sure that I shall never willingly deceive your trust. And lest I might hap to do it of over sight unware/ albe it I nothing said unto your friend by mouth but that I was right well informed of the troth/ yet for as mich as I perceived by him the sū●olke doubted le●te many things were laid to the charge/ not only of that man ye wrote of/ but also of Luther himself/ otherwise than could be proved/ I did so much therein that I was suffered to see & show him as well the books of the tone as the very a●tys of the court concerning that other/ that we might both by so much the more surely wartaunt you the troth. wherein if ye find any man that yet doubteth whether he told you and I write you the troth or not/ I shall if he understand the laryne tongue find the mean at your pleasure that he shall so see the books himself/ that were he never so full of mistrusting he shall not fail to be fully content & satisfied. And this warrantyse will I make you as farforth as concerns any act done here. But as for things reasoned and disputed between us/ the conclusions self be so sure truths/ that the● be not dysputable. But whither the reasons by me made in them beneffectuall or insufficyent/ albe it your friend either for ȳ● of troth he thought so/ or for that of courtesy he said so/ accepted them for good/ yet without prejudice of the principal matters ye may yourself be judge. And thus I pray you take in good worth the little labour & great good will of him whom in any thing that may do you pleasure/ ye may to the uttermost of his little power well and boldly command. And thus our lord send you with my good lady your bedfellow & all yours as heartily well to far as ye would all wish.  
yOur friend first after your letter red/ when I demanded him his credence/ showed me that ye had sent him to me/ not for any doubt that yourself had in many of those things that he should move unto me/ but for the doubt that ye perceived in many other/ and in sum folk plain parsuasyon to the contrary/ whom ye would be glad to answer with the truth/ albe it some things he said were also there so talked/ that ye wist not well yourself which part ye might believe. For it was there not only spoken but also thither written by divers honest pre●●ys out of london/ that the man ye write of was of many things bor●e wrong in hand/ and therein so sore handled/ that he was forced to forswear & abjure certain herysyes/ and openly put to penance therefore/ where he never held any such. And all this don for malice and envy/ partly of some freres against whose abusions he preached/ partly for that he preached boldly against the pomp and pride and other inordynate living that more men speak of th●̄ preach of used in the clergy. And they take for a great token that he should not mean evil/ the prose and experience which men have had of him that he lived well and was a good honest virtuous man far from ambition and desire of worldly worship/ chaste/ humble & chartable/ free & liberal in almose deed/ and a very goodly preacher/ in whose devout sermons the people were greatly edified. And therefore the people say that all this gear is done but only to stop men's mouths/ & to put every man to silence that would any thing speak of the ●autys of the clergy. And they think that for none other cause was also burned at Poulys cross the new testament late translated in englyshe by Master wyllyam huchen otherwise called Master Tindall/ who was as men say well known ere he went over the see for a man of right good living/ studious & well learned in scripture/ and in diverse pl●cys in England was very well liked & did great good with preaching. And men mutter among themself that the book was not only fawtlesse/ but also very well translated/ & was deuyse●● to be burned because men should not be able to prove that such faults as were at Paul's cross declared to have been founden in it were never founden there in deed/ but untruly surmised. And yet such as they were sum men say were no fautis at all/ if they had be so translated in deed/ but blame laid & haught found with things nothing 〈◊〉 worthy/ only to ●●face the holy work/ to th'end that they might seem to have some just cause to burn it. And that for none other cause but for to keep out of the peoples hand is all knowledge of Cristis gospel & of God's law/ except so much only as the clergy themself list now & than to tell us. And that little as it is & seldom showed/ yet as it is feared not well & truly told/ but watered with false gloss/ & altered from the truth of the very words & sentence of scripture only for the mayntenauns of their authority. ¶ And ȳ● fere lest this thing should evidently appear to the people if they were suffered to read the scripture themself in their own tongue/ was as it is thought the very cause not only for which the new testament translated by Tindale was burned/ but also that the clergy of this realm hath bifore this time by a constitution provincial prohibited any book of scripture to be translated in to the english tongue/ fearing men with fire as herytyques whose so should presume to keep them/ As though it were heresy for a christen man to read crystis gospel. ¶ And surely sir quoth he sum folk that think this dealing of the clergy to be thus/ and good men to be mishandled for declaring the troth/ And the scripture self to be pulled out of the peoples hands lest they should perceive the truth/ be led in their minds to doubt whither Luther him self of whose opinions or at the lest of whose works all these bysynesse began/ wrote in deed so evil as he is borne in hand. And many men therebe that think he never mente such things. But that because he wrote against thabusions of pardons/ and spoke somewhat liberally against the court of Rome/ and generally against the vices of the clergy/ therefore he was brought in hatred/ and first cited to Rome. And wh●n that forfere of bodily harm with wrong/ whereof it would have been to late or look for remedy after/ if he had once be burned up before/ he durst not come thither/ than was he accursed/ and his books dampened/ & under great paynis forbidden to be red. And that thing done/ because it should not be known what wrong he had/ and that he neither meaneth nor sayeth such odious and abominable heresies as the people be borne in hand to induce them to hatred of him/ as it would peradventure appear y● his bekis were suffered to be red. ¶ And they say that it were no mastery to make it seem that a man should be Turrian herytyque/ if he may be borne in hand that he sayeth the thing which he never said/ or peradventure one line taken out among many and mysconstrewed/ not suffering the remnant to be seen/ whereby it might more clearly appear what he meaneth. By which manner of dealing a man they say might lay heresy to saint poule/ and find a fault in saint john's gospel. And yet they say the worst of all is this/ that the clergy c●ace not hereby nor hold themself content with the condempnyng of Luther & forbidding of his books/ but further abuse the hatred of his name against every man that is in preaching of the word of god any thing such as he should be/ that is to wyit plain and bold without gloze or flattering. where if they find a man fauty/ let them lay his fault to his charge. what nedythe to call him a Lutheran? Though Luther were a devil yet might a man percase say as he sayeth in sum thing and say true Enough. For never was their herytyqu● that said all false. Nor the devil himself lied not when he called christ goddies son. And therefore men think that this name 〈◊〉 Lutheran serveth the clergy for a comen cloak of a false crune/ that where they lack special matter to charge one with by judgement/ they labour to bring him first in the infamy of that name that comprysyth as they make it seem/ a confuted heap of heresies no man can tell what. ¶ And yet in such deling they wound their own matter another way. For while they defame for Lutherany●/m● that be of known virtue & cunning/ what do they thereby but one of the twain either cause the people that have for good living and learning those men in great reputation to think that the clergy for malice and envy doth untruly defame them/ or else that Luther's doctrine is good/ while so cunning men and good men leanly thereto. ¶ And therefore it were wisdom not to call them Lutherans/ but rather when they teach & hold any such opinions as the people know for Luther's/ let it either be dy●symuled/ or they secretly by fair ways induced to the contrary/ if the poyntis that they teach of his be nought. lest by calling good and cunning men Lutheran/ they may peradventure bring themself in suspicion of malice and envy/ And Luther among the people into good opinion/ Thinking as they bygynne to do all ready/ that either Luther said not so evil as is surmised upon him/ or else that those things that he saith as odious as they seem/ be good enough in deed. ¶ He said also that it seemed unto many men a sore thing and far unreasonable/ that poor simple and unlearned men all though they fell in to errors and were led out of the right way by that they leaned to th'authority of such men as they believed to be virtuous & ●unnyng/ should in stead of teaching be beaten cruelly with abjurations and opyn shame/ with ꝑell of burning also/ if a few false witness shall after such abjuration depose that they have hard him fall in relapse. ¶ Finally he said that many good and well learned men thought plainly that the clergy seemeth far out of all good order of charity/ and that they do contrary to the mildness and merciful mind of their ma●●er/ and against themsampleensample of all the old holy father's/ in that they cause for any error or wrong opinion in the faith/ any man one or other to be put to death.  
¶ For they say that the old holy fathers used only to dispute with heretics/ teaching them and convycting them by scripture/ and not by fagottꝭ. And that by that way the faith went well forward/ and one heretic so turned did torn many other/ where as now men abhor this cruelty in the church. And they that seem turned/ think still the things that they dare not say. And of thashes of one heretic spring up many. And that now we make the fashion of christendom to seem all turned quite up so down. For where as Crist made infydelis the persecutors and his crysten people the su●●rers/ we make the christian men the persecutors and the infydelys the sufferers. whereby men think that secretly christs order yet standeth still though it be not so t●kin and so perceived. For the people take it that still those that ꝑsecute be the myscrea●̄tys/ and those poor people that suffer it/ be under the false name of heretics the true believing men and very christian martyrs.  
¶ Cryst also they say would never have any man compelled by force and violence to believe upon his faith/ nor would that men should fight for him or his matters. In so farforth that he would not suffer ●aynt peter to fight for his own self/ but reproved him for striking Malchus. Nor would not defend him self/ but healing the ere again of Malchus his persecutor which Peter had smitten of/ and giving all his holy body to the patient sufferance of all painful torments that his cruel enemies would put to it/ showed us as well by his effectual ensample of his death/ as by his godly council in his life/ and after that confirmed by the continual passion and marterdums of his holy martyrs/ that his will & pleasure is that we should not so much as defend ourself against herytyquys & infidelys/ were they Pagans turkys or sarasinies. And mich less than should we fight against them and kill them/ but that we should persever in setting forth his faith against myscreauntiss and infidellies/ by such ways as himself began it/ keep it/ and increase it as it was gotten/ And that was by patience and sufferance by which the faith was divulgate and spread almost thorough the world in little while. Not by war & fighting/ which way hath as they say well near all ready lost all that the other way wan.  
¶ when your friend had thus declared his credence/ he desired me both on your behalf and on his own in such things as were parcas not well said to take them as they were in deed the mind of other/ whom ye would fain answer and satisfy with reason/ which ye trusted to be the better able to do by mine answer/ and neither the mind nor opinion of you nor him/ which did and would in all thing stand and abide by the faith & believe of Crystis catholic church. But as for such parts of this matter as conceived not any part of our believe but the dealing of this world/ as the justice or unjustice of sum spiritual persons in the pursuing and condemning men for heretyquys or their works for heresies/ he thought he said as of himself that men might without any apparel of heresy for their own part notwithstanding any man's judgement given yet well and reasonably doubt there in/ For though he thought it heresy to think thopinions of any man to be good and catholic which been herisyes in deed/ yet might a man he thought without any apparel of heresy doubt whether he were Turrian heretic or no that were by man's judgement condemned for one/ sith it might well hap that he never held those opinions that were put upon him/ but that he was either by false depositions of wrong full witness/ or by the error or malice of unjust judges condemned. And that sometime percase the ignorance of some judges would condemn for heresy such articles as wiser and better learned would in point of judgement allow for good and catholic/ and of the other judgement decern & judge the contrary.  
¶ How be it he said that ye had in me and my learning so special trust & confydens'/ that in any of all these things what so ever ye had herd or should hear elliss where/ ye were fully determined to give full credence to me & take for the troth such answer as he should bring you from me/ wherein ye right heartily desired me to take some pain that ye might in these matters by his mouth know my mind at large/  
¶ After this or I made any answer to his words/ I demanded him what manner acquaintance was between him and you. And thereupon perceiving him to have your sons at school enquering farther of him to what faculty he had most given his study/ understood him to have given diligence to the latin tongue/ As for other faculties he wrought not of. For he told me merrily that Logyk he reckoned but babeling/ music to serve for syngers/ Arythmetryk meet for merchauntꝭ/ Geometry for masons/ Astronomy good for no man/ And as for Philosophy the most vanity of all/ And that it & Logyk had lost all good divinity with the subtleties of their questions/ and babbling of their dispicions/ building all upon reason/ which rather giveth blindness than any light. For man he said hath no light but of holy scripture. And therefore he said that beside the latin tongue he had been/ which I much commend/ studious in holy scripture/ which was he said learning I enough for a Crystyn man/ with which thapostles held themself content. And therein he said he laboured not only to can many texts thereof by heart/ but also to enserche the sentence and understanding thereof as far as he might perceive by himself. For as for interpreters he told me that neither his time would well serve him to read/ & also he found so great sweetness in the text self/ that he could not find in his heart to lose any time in the glosi●. And as touching any defycultye he said that he found by experience that the best and surest interpretation was to ley and confer one text with an other/ which ●ayle not among them well & sufficiently to declare themself. And this way he said that he used which he found sufficient and surest. For so should it most surely tarry/ when it were founden out and learned by a man's own labour. And that he said was every man able Enough to do with help of god which never faylith them that faithfully trust in his promise. And he hath promysid that if we seek we shall find/ And if we knock we shall have it openyde to us. And what shallbe opened? but the book which as saint john saith in th'apocalypse is so shytt with vii clapses that it can not be opened but by the lamb that when he shutteth than can no man open it/ and when he openeth it than can no man shytt it. ¶ Upon these words & other like when I consyderyde that your friend was studious of scripture/ and all though I now have a very good opinion of him/ nor at that time had not all the contrary/ yet to be plain with you and him both/ by reason that he set the matter so well and lustily forward/ he put me somewhat in doubt whether he were as young scholars be sometime ꝓne to new fantesyes/ fallen in to Luther'S sect. And that ye peradventure somewhat fearing the same/ did of good mind the rather send him to me with such a message/ for that ye trusted he should be somewhat answered and satisfied by me. I therefore thought it not meetly in so many matters and wegh●y to make him an unadvised answer/ but with good words welcoming him for the time ptending lake of leisure for other psent bisines/ required him to return on the morrow/ Against which time I would so order mine other affares that we would have conference to gether of all his erande at length. And he in this wise being departyde I began to gather in mind the hole effect as my remembrance would serve me of all that he had purposed. And because I would have it the more ready at mine eye/ so that I might the more fully & effectually answer it leaving no part untouched in such order as he had purposed it that is to wit after the manner that I have above rehearsed/ I briefly commited it to writing    

¶ The second chapter  
¶ Here summaryly is declared what order the Author intendyth to treat of the matters purposed unto him. whereof because the first was an opinion conceived in some men's heads that a certain parsonlate abjured of heresy for preaching against pilgrymagys' & images and prayers made to saints was therein greatly wronged/ the author briefly declareth his mind concerning the confutation of those perilous and pernicious opy●yons.  
ON the morrow when he was cummen again somewhat before seven. of the clock (for so I appointed him) taking him with me in to my study/ and my saruanties warned that if any other should happen to desire to speak with me/ certain except of whom I gave them knowledge/ they should dy●●erre them till another leysor/ I set him down with me at a little table. And then I showed unto him that where he had purposed on your byhalf in short words many long things whereof the rehearsal were loss of time to him that so well knew them all ready/ I would all suꝑ●iuous recapitulation set apart/ as briefly as I conveniently could/ show him my mind in them all. And first bygyn where he began at the abjuration of the man he spoke. secondly would I touch the condemnation and burning of the new testament translated by Tyndale. Thirdly somewhat would I speak of Luther & his sect in general. fourth and finally the thing that he touched last that is to wit the wart and fighting against infidels with the condemnation of heretics unto death/ which two poynty● himself had combined and knit to gether. ¶ And first as touching the matter of the man's aberration where it is reported that the spirituality did him wrong. And for to make that seem likely there is laid in them displeasure/ malice & ●●●y toward him ●or peech●ng as ye say quoth I against theyer vicious living/ And in him is on the other side alleged much cunning virtue and goodness. I will neither enter in to the praise of them nor in to the dispraise of him/ wherein standeth nothingtheffect of this matter/ For if the●e did/ I would not pass over some part thereof so shortly.  
¶ But now for this matter all though the hole spirituality/ wherein no man dowtith to be ●●any a right virtuous and godly man/ were in their living far worse than devyllꝭ/ yet if they did that man no wrong/ there hath for this matter no man against them any cause to complain. And over this if that man were in all his other living as innocent as a saint/ yet if he were infected & faulty in these herysyes/ he had than in this matter no wrong. And yet beside all this if he not only were in all other things very virtuous/ but also were of all thoese heresies whereof he was detected utterly clean and faultless/ yet if it were by sufficient witness/ were they never so false in deed/ seeming honest and likely to say true/ proved in opyn court that he was fauty there in/ albeit in such case his witnesses had wronged him/ yet had his judges done him but right. And therefore letting pass as I say the praysse or dispraise of either his iudgis or him/ as things impertinent to the point/ I will show you that they not only did him no wrong/ but also showed him/ in my mind the greatest favour/ And used toward him the most chartable ●●rcy that ever I wy●● used to any man in ●uch case. And first as for any wron● that his iudgi● did hy●/ I merrell me 〈◊〉 where in they that report it could assygn● it. for if ●ny were done him●it must n●●ꝭ have been in one of the two things/ either in that he was untruly judged to have preached such articles as he was detected of where he preached none such in deed/ or else in that sum such articles as he preached were iudeged & condemned for heresies where they were none in deed. Except that any man would say that though he were proved and convicted of heresy yet he should have been put to no penance at all or else to no such as he was. And of that point if any man so think/ I shall speak in the fourth part where we shall touch in general the order that the church taketh in the condemnation of herytyques. But as for the other points first if any priest wrote out of london in to your cuntraye that any such article of his preaching was by his iudeges declared for herysy as were in deed good & not against the faith of crysties church/ let him name what article/ And either ye shall find that he shall name you such as the man was not charged with all/ or else shall ye find that such as he shall name you were such in deed as yourself shall perceive for heresies at your ere/ For the articles where with he was charged were that we should do no worship to any images/ nor pray to enyseynties/ or go on pilgrimages/ with things I suppose every good crystyn man will agree for heresies. And therefore we shall let that point pass and so resort to the second ●o see whither it were well prouy● that he preached them or no. Sir quoth your ●●end I would for my part well agree them for ●●rysys/ but yet have I ha●● some or thy● that would not d● so● And therefore w●an we ●all they● herysye● it were well 〈◊〉 to tell why/ ●ythse●● men would (I we●e if they might 〈◊〉 hard) ●tyffly say nay/ which now hold their pease & bear themself full coldly that would take the matter more hot save for burning of their lips. Now forsooth quoth I who so ever will say that these be no heresies/ he shall not have me to dispute it which have no cunning in such matters/ but as it best becummyth a lay man to do in all things/ leanly & cleave to the comem faith/ and believe of crystis church. And thereby do I plainly know it for an herysye/ if an heresy be a sect and a side way take by any part of such as been bap●ysyd and beat the name of crystyn men from the comen faith and byleefe of the hole church beside. For this am I very sure and perceive it well not only by experience of mine one time & the placies were myself hath been with comen report of other honest men from all other placies of crystyndome/ but by books also & rememberauncies left of long time with writing of the old holy fathers and now saints in heaven/ that from thappostles time hitherto this manner hath been used/ taught & allowed/ and the contrary commonly condemned through the hole flock of all good christian people. ¶ And as touching such textis as these heretics allege against the worshipping of images/ praying to saints/ and going on pilgrimages/ as they lay the law given to the jews. Non facies tibi s●u●p●●e/●how shalt carve the none image. And the psalm. In elihu Israell● de egipto/ And s●l● deo honor et gloria/ only to god be honour & glory. And ma●● dictus ●ui confidit in homine. Accursed is he that putteth his trust in man with many such other like/ which herytyques have of old ever ha●ked against christs catholic church/ very su●e am I that saint Austen/ saynt● hierome/ saint basil/ saint gregory with so many a godly cunning man as hath been in Christ's church from the beginning hitherto/ understood those textis as well as did those heretics/ Namely having as good wittis/ being far better lernid/ using in study more diligence/ being an heap to an handful/ & which most is of all having/ as god by many miracles beareth witness/ beside their learning the light and clearness of his especial grace/ by which they were inwardly taught of his only spirit to perceive that the word is spoken in the old law to the jews people prone to Idolatry/ and yet not to all them neither/ For the priests than had the images of th'angel cherubin in the secret place of the temple/ should have no place to forbid images among his christian flock/ where his pleasure would be to have the image of his blessed body hanging on his holy cross/ had in honour and reverent remembrance. where 〈◊〉 would vouchsafe to send unto the king abiagarus the image of his own face/ where he liked to leave the holy vernacle thexpresse image also of his blessed visage as a token to remain in honour among such as loved him from the time of his bitter passion hitherto. which as it was by the miracle of his blessed holy hand expressed and left in the sudari/ so hath it been by like miracle in that thine corruptible cloth kept and preserved uncorrupted this xu C. year fresh and well perceived to the inward comfort/ spiritual rejoicing & great increase of fervor and devotion in the hartis of good christian people. Crist also taught his holy evangelist saint luke to have another manner mind toward images than have these heretics/ when he put in his mind to counterfeit and express in a table the lovely visage of our blessed lady his mother. He taught also saint amphibalus the master and teacher of the holy first martyr of england saint alban to bear about and worship the crucifix. who showed also saint alban himself in a vision the image of the crucifix but god: which thing wrought in that holy man so strongly/ that he with few words of saint amphybalus at the sight of that blessed image which our lord had before showed him in his sleep was clean turned to christendom/ And in the worshyping of the same image was taken and brought forth to judgement & afterward to martyrdom.  
¶ And there is no man but if he love another he delitith in his image or enything of his. And these heretics that be so sore against the images of god & his holy saints would be yet right angry withern that would dishonestly handle an image made in remembrance of him self/ where the wrethiss forbear not villainously to handle and to cast dirt in despite upon the holy crucifix anymage made in remembrance of our saviour himself/ and not only of his most blessed person but also of his most bitter passion.  
¶ Now as touching prayer made unto the saints and worship done unto them/ mich marvel is it what cause of malice these heretykis have to them. we see it comen in the wretched condition of this world that one man of a pride in himself hath envy at another or for displasure done/ beareth to some other malice and evil will. But this must nedis be a devilish hatred to hate him whom thou never knewist/ which never did the harm/ which if he could now do that no good where he is/ yet either with his good ensample gone before thee/ or his good doctrine left behind him/ doth thee/ but if thou be very nought of thyself/ great good in this world for thy journey toward heaven. And this must needs be an envy coming of an high devilish pride and far passing thenvy of the devil himself/ for he never envy but such as he saw & was conversant with/ as when he saw man and the glory of god. But these herytyques envy them whom they never saw nor never shall see but when they shallbe sorry and ashamed in themself of that glorious sight/ ¶ For where they pretend the zeal of God's honour hī●elf/ as though god to whom only all honour and glory is to be given/ were dishonoured in that sum honour is done to his holy saints/ they be not so mad nor so childish as they make themself. For if all honour were so to be given only to god that we should give none to no creature/ where were than goddies precept of honour to be given to our father & mother/ to princes/ governors & rulers here in earth/ And as saint Poule saith every man to other ¶ And well they wot that the church worshippeth not sainties as god but as God's good saruauntis/ & therefore the honour that is done to them redoundeth principally to the honour of their master/ like as in comen custom of people we do reverence sometime & make great cheer to sum men for their masters sakes whom else we would not happily bid once good morrow. ¶ And surely if any benefit or alms done to one of crystis poor folk for his sake/ be by his high goodness reputed and accepted as done unto himself/ And that who so receiveth one of his apostles or disciples receiveth himself/ every wise man may well consider that in like wise who so doth honour his holy saints for his sake doth honour himself/ Except these herytyques ween that god were as envious as they be themself/ And that he would be wroth to have any honour done to any other though it thereby redounded unto himself. whereof our saviour christ well declareth the contrary/ for he showeth himself so well content, that his holy saints shallbe pertyners of his honour/ that he promysyth his apostles/ that at the dreadful doom when he shall come in his high majesty they shall have their honourable seetis and sit with himself upon the iudegement of the world ¶ christ also promised that saint mary magdalene should be worshipped thorough the world and have here an honourable remembrance for that she bestowed that precious ointment upon his holy head. which thing when I consider it maketh me marvel of the madness of these heretics that bark against the old ancient customs of crysties church/ mocking the setting up of candellies and with foolish facecyes & blasphemous mockery demand whither god and his saints lak light or whither it be night with them that they can not see without candle. They might as well ask what good did that ointment to christis head. But the heretyques' grudge at the cost now/ as their brother judas did than/ And say it were better spent in alms upon poor folk And this say many of them which can neither find in their heart to spend upon y● one nor the t'other. And sum spend sometime upon the tone for none other intent but to th'end that they may the more boldly rebuke and rail against the t'other. But let than all by that ensample of the holy woman and by those words of our saviour/ learn that god delighteth to see the fervent heat of y● hartis devotion foil out by the body/ And to do him service with all such goods of fortune as god hath gevin man ¶ what riches devised our lord god himself in the making & garnishing of the temple & in the ornaments of the altar and the priests apparel/ what was himself the better for all this? what for the bestis that himself commanded to be offered him in sacrifice? what for the sweet odours and frankincense? why do these heretics more mock at the manner of crystis church than they do at the manner of the jews synagogue but if they be better jews than christian men? ¶ If men will say that the money were better spent among poor folk by whom he more setteth/ being the quick temples of the holy ghost made by his own hand/ than by the temples of stone made by the hand of man/ This would be percase very true if there were so little to do it with that we should be driven of necessity to leave the tone undone. But god giveth enough for both/ And giveth diverse men divers kinds of devotion and all to his pleasure. In which as th'apostle Poule saith let every man for his part abound & be plenteous in that kind of virtue that the spirit of god guideth him to. & not to be of the foolish mind that luther is/ which wisheth in a sermon of his that he had in his hand all the peries of the holy cross/ And saith that if he so had he would throw them there as never son should shine on them. And for what worshup full reason would the wretch do such villainy to the cross of christ? by cause as he saith that there is so much gold now bestowed about the garneshing of the pyecies of the cross that there is none left for poor folk. Is not this Turrian high reason? as though all the gold that is now bestowed about the pieces of the holy cross would not have faylede to have been given to poor men if they had not been bestowed about the garneshing of the cross/ And as though there were nothing lost but that is bestowed about cristis cross ¶ Take all the gold that is spent about all the pieces of chrystis cross thorough christendom/ albe it many a good christen prince and other godly people hath honourably garnished many pieces thereof/ yet if all that gold were gathered together/ it would appear a poor portion in comparison of the gold that is bestowed upon cups/ what speak we of cups? in which the gold albeit that it be not given to poor men yet is it saved and may be given in almose when men will which they never will/ how small a portion ween we were the gold about all the pieces of christs cross if it were compared with the gold that is quite cast a way about the gilting of knives/ swordꝭ/ spories/ arrace/ & painted clothes: and as though these thyngiss could not consume gold fast enough the gylting of posties & hole rofes/ not only in the palacꝭ of princes and great prelatis/ but also many right mean men's housis. And yet among all these things could luther spy no gold that grievously glyterid in his bleared eyes but only about the cross of christ. that gold if it were thence the wise man weeneth it would de straight given to poor men. and that where he daily seeth that such as have their purse full of gold give to the poor not one piece thereof but if they give aught they ransack the bottom among all the gold to seek out here an half penny or in his country a braspeny whereof four make a farthing/ such goodly causes found they that ptend holiness for the colour of their cloaked heresies.   

The third chapter  
¶ th'objecctions of the messenger made against praying to saints/ worshipping of images/ and going in pilgrimages with the answer of the author unto the same. And incydently is it by the messenger moved that there should seem no necessity for christian folk to resort to any churches/ but that all were one to pray thence or there. And that opinion by the author answered and confuted.  
AT this point your friend desiring me that what so ever he should say I should not reckon it as spoken of his own opinion/ but that he would partly show me what he had hard sum other say therein/ to th'end that he might the better answer them with that he should here of me. This protestation and prefation made/ he said that albe it no good man would agree that it were well done to do ●nto saints or their images despite or dyshonor/ yet to go in pylgrymagis to them or to pray to them not only seemed in vain considering that all they if they can any thing do/ can yet do no more for us among them all than christ can himself alone that can do all/ nor be not so ready at our hand to hear us if they here us at all as christ that is every where/ nor bear us half the love and longing to help us that doth our saviour that died for us/ whom as saint Poule saith we have for our advocate afore the father/ But over this it seemeth to smell of Idolatry when we go on pilgrimage to this place & that place/ As though god were not like strong or not like present in every place/ But as the devils were of old under the false name of God's present and assistant in the idols & mammeties of the Pagans/ so would we make it seem that god and his saitꝭ stood in this place & that place to this post & that post cut out and carved in images. For when we rekyn ourself to be better herd with our lord in kent than at cambridge/ at the north door of Paul's than at the south door/ at one image of our Lady than at another/ is it not an evident token and in manner a plain proof that we put our trust and confidence in the image self & not in god or our lady? which is as good in the tone place as the t'other and the tone image no more like her than the to●her/ nor cause why she should favour the tone bifore the t'other. But we blind people in stead of god & his holy saints themself cast our affections to the images self and thereto make our prayers/ thereto make our offryngys'/ & ween these images were the very saints self of whom our help & health should grow/ putting our full trust in this place & the place as necromancers put their trust in their circles with which they think themself sure against all the devils in hell/ And ween if they were one inch without/ that than the devil would pull them in pesies/ but as for the circle he dare not for his ears once put over his nose. ¶ And men reckon that the clergy is glad to favour this ways & to nourish this superstition under the name & colour of devotion to the ꝑell of the peoples souls for the lucre & temporal advantage that themself receive of the offrigis. ¶ when I had hard him say what him liked I demanded if he minded ever to be pre●●e/ whereunto he answered nay verily/ for me thinketh q he that therebe priests to many all ready but if they were better. And therefore when god shall send time I purpose he said to marry. well said I than sith I am all ready married twice & therefore never can be pre●st/ and ye be so set in mind of marriage that ye never will be priest/ we two be not the most meetly to ponder what might be said in this matter for the priests part. ¶ ●ow be it when I consider it/ me thinketh surely that if the thing were such as ye say so far from all frame of right religion/ and so perilous to men soul is/ I can not perceive why that the clergy would for the gain they get thereby/ suffer such abusion to continue. For first if it were true that no pilgrimage ought to be used/ non image offered unto/ nor worship done/ nor prayer made unto any saint/ Than if none of all these things had ever been in ure or now were all undone/ If that were the right way/ as I wot well it were wrong/ than were it to me little question but christian people being in the true faith and in the right way to god w●rd/ would thereby nothing slake their good midꝭ toward the ministers of his church/ but their devotion should toward them more & more increase. So that if they now get by this way one penny/ they should if this be wrong and the other right/ not fail in stead of one penny now/ than to receive a groat. And so should no lucre give them cause to favour this way and it be wrong/ while they could not fail to win more by the right. ¶ moreover look me thorough christendom & I suppose ye shall found the fruit of those offeringꝭ & right small part of the living of the clergy/ And such as though sum few placis would be glad to retain/ yet the hole body might without any notable l●sse easily forbear.  
¶ Let us consider our own country he●e/ & we shall found of these pilgri●●●ꝭ 〈…〉 most part in the handꝭ of such religious persons or such poor ꝑryshis as bear no great rule in the cōuocacōns● & besidis this ye shall not found I supopse that any bishop in england hath the perfect of one groat of any such offering within his diocese. Now standeth then the continuance or the breaking of this manner and custom specially in them which take no profit thereby. which if they believed it to be such as ye call it superstyciouse and wicked/ would never suffer it continue to the perishing of men's souls/ whereby themself should destroy their own souls/ and neither in body nor goods take any commodity. And over this we see that the bysshopp● y● and prelates them seluys visit those holy placies and pilgrimages with as large offryngys'/ and as great cost in coming and going as other people do/ so that they not only take no temporal advantage thereof/ but also bestow of their own therein.  
¶ And surely I believe this devotion so planted by gods own hand in the hartis of the hole church/ that is to wit not the clergys' only but the hole congregation of all crystyn people/ that if the spirituality were of the mind to leave it/ yet would not the temporalty suffer it.  
¶ Now if it so were that pilgrymagꝭ hanged only upon the covetise of evil prestis/ for evil must they be that would for covetise help the people forward to idolatry/ than would not good presties and good bishops have used them their selves. But I am very su●e that many an holy bishop/ & therewith excell●ntely well learned in scripture/ & the law of god have had high devotion thereto.  
¶ For where as ye say 〈◊〉 that it smelleth of idolatry to visit this place & that place/ as though god were more mighty or more present in one place then another/ or that god or his saints had bounden themselves to stand at this Image or that Image/ and that by men's demeanour thereby should appear that the pylgrymys put their trust in the place or the Image it self taking that for very god/ or for the very saint of whom they seek for help/ and so far like necromancers that put their trust in the circle/ Surely sir holy saint Austen man epystyll of his which he wrote to the clergy and the people taketh pylgrimagys' for a more erenest thing. And sayeth that though the cause be to us unknown why god doth in some place miracles & in sum place none/ yet is it no doubt but he so doth. And therein had that good holy doctor so great confidence that as he ●ayeth himself/ he sent two of his presties in pilgrimage for the trial of the troth of a great matter in contention and debate between them out of Hyppona in africa unto saint Stephen's church in myllayn/ where many miracles were wont to be showed/ to th'end that god might there by sum means/ cause the truth to be declared and made open by his power/ which by no mean known to man he could well find out/  
¶ Nor they that gone on pilgrimage do nothing like to those necromancers to whom ye resemble them that put their confidence in the rundel & circle on the ground/ for a special belove that they have in the c●●pa●e of that ground by reason of foolish 〈◊〉 and figures about it with invocacyons of evil spirits and famylyaryt● with deuy●●i● being enemies to god/ & the craft & ways of all that work by god himself prohibited and foreboden and that upon the pain of death/ what likeness hath y● unto the going of good men unto holy placies not by enchantment dedicat to the devil/ but by god holy ordinance with his holy words consecrated unto himself. which two things if ye would resemble to gyther so might ye blaspheme and have in dyrision all the devout rytꝭ & cerymonies of the church/ both in the divine service as encensing/ haloing of the fire/ of the font/ of the paschal lamb/ and over that the exorcysmys/ benedictions/ and holy strange gesturies used in consecration or ministration of the blessed sacraments/ all which holy things great part whereof was from hand to hand left in the church from the time of christs apostles and by them left unto us as it was by god taught unto them/ men might now foolily myslyken unto the superstitious demeanour & fond fashion of iuglery. Nor the flock of christ is not so foolish as those heretics bear them in hand/ that where as there is no dog so mad but he knoweth a very coney from a coney carved & painted/ christian people that have reason in their heddis & thereto the light of faith in their souls should ween that thimagys'images of our lady were our lady herself. Nay they be not I trust so mad but they do reverence to th'image for the honour of the person whom it representyth/ as every man delytyth in th'image & remembrauns of his friend. And al●e it that every good christian man hath a remembering of crysties passion in his mind & cō●●yuith by devout meditation a form & fashion thereof in his heart/ yet is the●e no man I 〈◊〉 so good nor so well learned nor in meditation so well accustomed / but that he fyndyth himself more moved to pite and compassion upon the beholding of the holy crucifix than when he lakkith it/ And if there be any that for the maintenance of his opinion will peradventure say that he findeth it otherwise in himself/ he should give me cause to fere that he hath of crysties passion neither the tone way nor the t'other but a very faint feeling/ sith that the holy fathers before us did/ and all devout people about us do find and feel in themself the contrary  
¶ Now for the reason that you allege quoth I/ where ye say that in resorting to this place and that place/ this image and that image/ we seem to reckon as though god were not in every place like mighty or not like present/ this reason proceedeth no more against pilgrymagys' than against all the churches in christian done. For god is as mighty in the stable as in the temple. And as he is not comphensible nor circumscrybed no where/ so is he present every where/ But this letteth not heaven/ be it a corporal thing or not/ to be the place of a special manner and kind of his presence/ in which it liketh him to show his glorious majesty to his blessed heavenly company which he showeth not unto dampened wretches in hell/ and yet is he never thence. So li●id it his goodness to go with his chosen people through the desert in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night/ yet was he not bounden as ye resemble it like the damned spirits to the old Idolys of the paynims/  
¶ It likid him also to cheese the arch that was carried with his people/ at which arch specially by miracle he divers times declared his especial assistance the arch being translated fro place to place. was it not also his pleasure to be specially present in his temple of Jerusalem till he suffered it to be destroyed for their sin. And in stead of that one place of prayer to which he would before that all his people should come he hath vouchsafed to spread himself abroad in to many temples/ and in more acceptable wise to be worshipped in many templys thorough out his cristyn flokke/  
¶ Here said your fr●nd that the temple of christ is as saint poule sayeth man's heart/ and that god is not included nor shit in any place/ And so him self said to the woman of Samarie/ that very worshippers should worship in spirit/ and in truth/ not in the hill or in hyerusal●m or any other temple of stone/  
¶ whereunto I showed him that I would well agree/ that no temple of stone was unto god so pleasant as the temple of man's heart/ But yet that nothing letteth or wythstandyth but that god will that his crysten people have in sundry placies sundry temples and chyrchiss to which they should beside their private prayers assemble solemnly/ and resort in company to worship him to gether such as dwell so near to gether that they may conveniently resort to one place.  
¶ For albe it our saviour said quod I unto the woman of whom ye spoke that the time should come in which they should neither worship god in that hill of Gezara not in hyerusalem neither/ which places were after dystroied and desolate/ and the pagan manner of worshipping of the tone/ & the jews manner of worshipping in the other turned both in to the manner of worshyping of christen Faith and religion/ yet said he not to her that they should never after worship god in none other temple/ But he said that the time should come/ and than was comen all ready when the very true worshippers should worship god in spirit and truth/ And that as god is a spiritual substance/ so looked he for worshypers that should in such wise worship him. In which words our saviour reproved all false worship as was used after paganysme in that hill in Samaria/ and all such worship as was done in any place with opinion that god might not be worshipped else where. Those that so believe they be such as bind god to a place/ which our Lord reprovyth/ showing that god may in heart truly and spiritually be worshipped every where. But this excludyth not that besidis that he will be worshipped in his holy temple/ no more than when he gave council that for avoiding of vainglory a man shall not stand and pray in the street to gather worldly praise/ but rather secretly pray in his chamber/ This counsel forbade not the jews to whom he gave it that they should never after come in to the temple/ and pray.  
¶ And surely albeit that sum good man here and there one among ten thousand as saint Poule and saint Antony/ & a few such other like/ do live all heavenly far out of all fleshly company/ as far from all occasion of worldly wretchedness/ as from the comen temple or parysh church/ yet if churches & congregations of crystyn people resorting to gether to god service were onis aboleshed and put away/ we were like to have few good temples of god in men's soul's/ but all would within a while wear away clean and clearly fall to nought. And this preue we by experience/ that those which be the best temples of god in their soul's/ they most use to come to the temple of stone/ And those that lest come there be well known for very rebaudies and unthryfties/ and openly perceived for temples of the devil/ And this not in our days only/ but so hath been from Crysties days hither/ I trow no man doutyth but that Crysties appostyls were holy temples of god in their soul's/ And well understood the words of their master spoken to the woman of Samary/ as the thing which their master after told them himself/ or else how cold sum of them have written that communication which none of them hard as appeareth by the gospel. But they not in their masters days only/ but also after his resurrexyon and after that they had received the holy ghost/ and were by him instructed of every truth longing to the necessity of their salvation/ were not content only to pray secretly by themself in theyer chambers/ but also resorted to the temple to make their prayers/ And in the place as a place pleasant to god did they pray in spirit and in truth/ As well appeareth in the book of saint Luke wryttyn of the Actys of Crystes holy Apostellys/ So that no doubt is there/ but that yet unto this day and so forth to the Worlds end/ it is and shallbe pleasant unto god/ that his chosen people pray to him and call upon him in temple and church. whereof him self witnesseth with the Prophet/ Domus mea domus orationis vocabitur. My house shallbe called Turrian house of prayer. ¶ Now maketh your reason as I said no more against pylgrymagis than against every church. For as god is not bounden to the place/ nor our confidence bounden to the place but unto god though we reckon our prayer more pleasant to god in the church than without/ by cause his high goodness accepteth it so/ in like wise do not we reckon our lord bounden to the place or image where the pilgrimage is though we worship god there because himself liketh so to have it.   

¶ The four chapter.  
¶ Th● author declareth in the comprobation of pilgrimages that it is the pleasure of god to be specially sought & worshipped in some one place before another. And albe that we can not attain to the knowledge of the cause why god doth so/ yet the author proveth by great authority that god by miracle testifieth it is so.  
with this your friend asked me what reason were there that god would set more by one place than by another/ or how know we that he so doth namely if the t●ne be a church as well as the t'other. ¶ whereunto I answered that why god would do it I could make him no answer no more than saint austin sayeth that he could. I was never so near of his counsel nor dare not be so bold to ask him/ but that he so doth in deed that I am sure Enough. yet not for that he setteth more by that place for the soil and pavement of the place/ but that his pleasure in some place is to show more his assistance and to be more specially sought unto than in sum other. ¶ Than he as●ed me whereby was I so sure of yt. whereupon I demanded him that if it so were that the thing standing in debate & question/ it would like our lord to show a miracle for the proof of the tone part/ would ye not quoth I reckon than the question were decided/ & the doubt assoiled/ and that part sufficiently proued● yes marry quoth he that would I. well quoth I than is this matter out of doubt long a go. for god hath proved my part in diverse pylgrymagis by the working of many more than a thousand miracles one time and other. In the gospel of john the fift chapter where we read that the angel moved the water/ & who so next went in was cured of his disease/ was it not a sufficient proof that god would they should come thither for their health/ Albe it no man can tell why he sentt th'angel rather thither & there did his miracles than in another water? But when so ever our lord hath in any place wrought a miracle/ all though he nothing do it for the place/ but for the honour of the saint whom he will have honoured in that place/ or for the faith that he findeth with some that prayeth in that place/ or for th'increase of faith which he findeth falling and decayed in that place needing the show of some miracles for the revyuing/ what so ever the cause be/ yet I think thaffeccyon is to be commended of men and women that with good devotion run thither where they see or here that our lord showeth a demonstration of his special assistance. And when he showeth many in ●one place/ it is a good token that he would be sought upon and worshipped there. Many jews were there that can to hyerusalem to se the miracle that christ had wrought upon lazare as the gospel rehearseth. and surely we were worse than jews if we would be so negligent that where god worketh miracles/ we list not ●ons go move our foot thitherward. we marvel much that god showeth ●omoo miracles now a days/ when it is much more marvel that he doth vouchsafe to show any at all among such unkind slothful deadly people as list not oones lift up their heddis to look thereon/ or that our incredulity can suffer him now adays to work any.   

¶ The .v. chapter.  
¶ Because pylgrimagꝭ be among other ꝓuys testified by miracles/ the messenger doth make objection against those miracles/ partly lest they be feigned & untrue/ partly lest they be done by the devil if they be done at all  
THan said your friend/ well I ꝑseve them y● force & effect of all the ꝓfe standeth all in miracles/ which I will agree to be a strong ꝓfe if I saw them doen and were sure that god or good saints did them/ But first sith the men may & happily do of miracles make many a lie/ we must not prove this matter by the miracles/ but if we first prove that the miracles were true. And over this if they were done indeed/ yet sith the angel of darkness may transform & transfigure himself/ in to an angel of light/ how shall we know whether the miracle were done by god to th'increase of crysten devotion/ or doen by the craft of the devil to thaduauncementadvancement of misbelieve & idolatry/ in setting men's hearts upon stokkies & stones in stead of saints/ or upon saints themself that are but creatures in stead of god himself.  
¶ I answered him that the force off my tale was not the miracles/ but the thing that I hold stronger than any miracles/ which as I said in the beginning I reckon so sure & fast & therewith so plain & evident unto every crysten man/ that it needeth no other proof/ and the thing is as I laid afore the faith of chrystis church by the comen consent whereof these matters be decided & well known that the worship of saints & images been allowed apꝓbate & accustomed for good christian & meritorious virtues. and the contrary opinion not only reproved by many holy doctors/ but also condemned for heresies by sundry general counsels. And this in the beginning I told you q I was & should be the force & strength of my tale/ Albe it of truth I said unto you beside/ that me thought that the miracles wrought by god were sufficient proof & authority therefore all though there were none other. which thing sith ye seem to inpugne/ I shall as I can make you answer thereunto. ¶ Nay sir sayꝭ he I pray you take me not so as though that I did impugn it but as I showed ye before/ I rehearsed you what I have hard some other say. In good time q I. Than because they be not here I pray you defend & bear out their part with all that ye have hard them say/ And set thereto also all that ever your own mind giveth you that they may more heraftyr say lest you return not fully furnishid for your purpose.   

The vi chapter  
¶ Because the messenger thinketh that he may well mistrust and deny the miracles/ because reason and nature tell him that they can not be done/ therefore first the author showeth what unresonablenes would ensue/ if folk would stand so stiff against all credence to be given to any such thing as reason and nature should seem to gain say.  
ANd first where ye say. Nay quoth he where they say. well quoth I so be it where they say/ For here ever my tongue tryppythe. But now therefore first where they say that they never saw any of these miracles themself/ and therefore the miracles be no proof to them which while they never saw them are not bound to be leave them/ they seem either very negligent if they nothing reuere when they mistrust & doubt of the troth in such a weighty matter/ or if they have diligently made enserche than must it nedis be that they have hard of so many told & rehearsed by the mouths & the writing of so good and credible personis/ that the ye seem unreasonably suspycyous if they think all to gether lies that so many tre● men or men like to be true so faithfully do report. If these men were ●uggys few matters would take end at their hand/ or at the le●t the plaintiff should have well speed if they would believe no thing but that were proved/ nor reckon nothing proved but that they see themself. ¶ Thus may every man reckon himself unsure of his own father if he believe no man/ or because all the proof thereof standeth but upon one woman/ And that upon her which though she can tell best/ yet if it be wrong hath gr●test cause to lie. Let the knowledge of the father alone ther fore among our wy●●y● mysteries/ And let us see if we believe nothing but that we see ourself. who can reckon himself sure of his own mother/ for pos●●ble it were that he were changed in the cradle/ and a ●yche man's 〈◊〉 bring hō● h●r own child for her master's/ & keep her masters for her own to make her o●● a gentleman good ●h●pe. And this were no great mastery/ while the mother hath of her own child no ●re mark. ¶ Sir q your friend if I should 〈…〉 & by thes examples prove them that they were of reason bound to believe 〈◊〉 ●●●●●les as were reported because many ●●●dyble men tell them/ for as mo●● as ●●ys we should believe nothing but that 〈◊〉 ●e ourself/ and than were all the ●●rld full of confusyon/ nor no judgement could be geum/ but upon things 〈◊〉 iudgis ●ight/ I should I fear me very ●ebly saty●●y them. For they would 〈◊〉 say that the samples be nothing like the matter. But as it is reason that I should believe honest men in all such things as may be true/ & wherein I see no cause why they should lie/ so were against all reason to believe men be they never so many/ seem they never so credible/ where as reason & nature (of which tw●yne every one is alone more credible than they all) showeth me plainly that their tal● is untrue/ as it must nedyl if the matter be unpossyble as it is in all ●hes miracles. And in such case though I can ●seue no perfect that they can receive thereby/ yet wh● I well see that it could not be true I must well see that it 〈◊〉 not tre●●. And thereby must I nedi●●●owe that y● they can take no profit by lying/ they lie not for any coveryer/ but even only for their special pleasure. ¶ Forsooth q I this is right merrily answered. & to say the troth/ as far as we be yet gone in the matter of these miracles not my 〈◊〉 amiss/ nor very far fro the point. But sith this thing is much materyal● as whereupon many great thy●●ys do depend/ we shall no● so shortly sha●e y● of/ but we shall come one ●●ep or 〈◊〉 near to the matter. And fyr●● I wy●● say to them that it were hard for them & n●● very sure to believe that every ●ā lieth/ why●h telleth them a tale for true the re●● & nature seemeth to she● them to be falls & impossible. For in this w●●e shall they in many things err & clearly deceive th●̄ self. And ●●tyme 〈◊〉 they make th●̄ self sure 〈◊〉 the wrong side if they wol● 〈…〉 done believe no man that tell it them/ able it that it be no peril to their soul/ yet so much have they knowledge the less/ & unreasonably stand in their ●●●our thorough the mystrusting of the truth. ¶ It is not yet thirty years a go sins the furst man as far as men have hard/ came to london that ever parted the guilt from the silver consuming shortly the silver into dust with a very fair water/ In so far forth that when the fyners and goldsmiths of london heard fy●st thereof they nothing wondered thereof but laughed thereat as at an impossible lie/ in which persuasions if they had continued still ●hey had yet at this day la●●ed all that cunning. ¶ yet will I not say nay but that a man may be to light in believe/ and be by such ensamples brought into believe to far. As ● good fellow and friend of mine late in talking of this matter of marueylies & miracles intending merely to make me believe for a troth a thing that could never be/ first brought in what a force the fire hath that will make two pieces of iron able to be joined and cleave to gyther/ and with the help of the h●me●●e made both one which no h●meryng could do without the fire/ which thing because I daily see I assented. Than said he ferther/ that yet was more marvel that the fire shall make ●●en to ●onne as silver or lead doth/ & make it take a print. which thing I told him I had never seen/ but because he said he had seen it I thought it to be true. soon after this/ he would have me to believe that he had seen a piece of silver of two or three inchies about & in length leesses than afote drawn by man's hand thorough straight holes made in a iron till it was brought in thyknesse not half a inch about/ & in length drawn out I cannot tell how many yardies. And when I hard him say that he saw this him self than I wist well he was merely disposed. Marry sir q your friend it was high time to give him over when he can to y●. well said I what if I should tell you now that I had seen the same/ by my faith q he merely I would believe it at leisure when I had seen the same/ and in the mean while I could not let you to say your pleasure in your own house but I would think that ye were disposed merely to make me a fool. well said I/ what if there would besides me/ ten or twenty good honest men tell you the same tale/ and that they had all seen the thing done themself. In faith quoth he sith I am sent hither to believe you/ I would in that point believe yourself alone/ as well as them all. well quoth I ye mean ye would believe us all a like. But what would you than say if one or twain of them would say more. Marry q he than would I believe them less. what if they would q I show you that they have seen that the piece of silver was over guilt. & the same piece being still drawn thorough the holes the guilt not rubbed of but still go forth in length with the silver so that all the length of many yerdꝭ was guilded of the gylting of the first piece not a foot long? Surely sir quoth he those twain that would tell me so much more I would say were not so cunning in the maintenance of a lie as was the pylgrymies companion with when his fellow had told at york that he had seen of late at london/ a bird that covered all Paul'S church yard with his wyngys': coming to the same place on the morrow said that he saw not that bird: but he hard much speech thereof/ but he saw in Paul's church yard an egg so great that ten men could scant move it with levers/ this fellow could help it forth with a proper side way/ But he were no good under proper of a lie that would minish his credence with afyrming all the fy●st and setting a louder lie thereto. well said I than I have espied if ten should tell you so ye would not believe them. No quoth he not if twenty should. what if an hundred would quoth I that seemed good and credible. if they were q he ten thousand they were not of credence with me when they should tell me that they saw the thing that myself knoweth by nature & reason unpossible For when I know it could not be done/ I know well that they lie all/ be they never so many that say they saw it done. well quoth I sith I see well ye would not in this point believe a hole town/ ye have put me to silence/ that I dare not now be bol●e to tell you that I have seen it my s●lfe. But surely if witness would have seruede me I ween I might have brought you a great many good men that would say and swear to that they have seen it themself. But now shall I provide me to morrow peradventure a couple of witness of whom I wot well ye will myst●uste neither nother. who be they quoth he for it were hard to find whom I could better trust than yourself/ whom what so ever I have merely said I could not in good faith but believe you in that ye should tell me earnestly upon your own knowledge. But ye use my master sayeth to look so sadly/ when ye mean merely/ that many times men doubt whether ye speak in sport when ye mean good earnest. In good faith quoth I/ I mean good earnest now/ & yet as well as ye dare trust me I shall as I said if ye will go with me provide a couple of witness of whom ye will believe any one better than twain of me/ for they be your nerre friends/ and ye have been better acquainted with them/ and such as I dare say for them be not often wont to lie. who be they q he I pray you. Marry quoth I your own two eyen/ for I shall if you will bring you where ye shall see it/ no ferther hens than even here in london. And as for iron & latin to be so drawn in length ye shall see it done in .xx shoppꝭ almost in one street. Marry sir quoth he these witness in deed will not lie/ As the poor man said by the pressed if I may be so honly to tell you a merry tale by the way. A merry tale quoth I cummyth never a miss to me. The poor man quoth he had found the pressed over familiar with his wife/ and because he spoke hy● a broad and could not prove it the priest sued him before the bishops official for dy●famacyō/ where the poor man upon pain of cursing was commanded that in his parish church he should upon the sunday at high mass time/ stand up and say mou●h thou liest. whereupon for fulfilling of his penance up was the poor soul set in a pew that the people might wonder on him and here what he said/ And there all a loud when he had rehearsed what he had reported by the priest/ than he set his hands on his mouth/ & said mouth mouth thou liest. And by & by thereupon he set his hand upon both his eyen & said/ but eyen eyen quoth he by the mass ye lie not a whit And so sir in deed/ & ye bring me those witness they will not lie a whit ¶ How be it sir and though this be true/ as in good faith I believe & am sure that it is/ yet am I never the more bounden by reason to believe than that would tell me a miracle. For though this thing be incredible to him that heareth it/ and strange and meruelus to him that seeth it/ yet is it a thing that may be done/ But he that telleth me a miracle/ telleth me a thing that can not be done. I showed you quoth I this ensample to put you in mind that in being over hard of believe of things tha● by reason and nature seem & apere impossible/ where they be reported by credible witness having no cause to lie/ there is as much peril of error as where men be to light of credence/ And thus much have I proved you onward that if ye believe no man in such things as may not be/ than must it follow that ye ought to believe no man in many things that may be/ for all is one to you/ whither they may be or may not be/ if it seem to you that they may not be. And of truth ye cannot tell whether they may be or may not be/ except they be two such things as imply contradiccion/ as oone self thing in one self part to be both white & blakke. For else many things shall seem to you such as all reason will resist/ and nature will in no wise admit/ And yet they shall be done well enough/ And be in some other place in comen use & custom. But now because/ all your shift standeth in this that of a miracle told you ye may with reason believe that all men lie because reason and nature being more to be believed than all they/ telleth you that they say wrong in that the thing reported for a miracle can not be done/ I have showed you that nature/ and reason doth show you that many things may not be done which yet in deed be done so farforth that when ye see them done ye may right well account them as miracles for any thing that reason or nature can show you by what natural order and cause it could be done/ but that ye shall still see reason stand quite against it as in the drawing of the silver or iron.   

¶ The vii chapter.  
¶ The Author showeth that neither nature nor reason do deny the miracles to be true/ nor do not gain say but that they may be well & easily done.  
SIr saith he yet hit we not the point/ for albe it that many things be well done/ & by nature/ which neither my wit nor happily no man's else can attain so near to nature's counsel that we can therein perceive her craft/ But like as sum rude people/ muse upon a clokke/ that hath the spring which is the cause of his moving secretly conveyed and closed in the barrel/ so marvel we & wonder on her work/ yet alway all those things differ and be unlike to miracles. In that yourself will agree with me that when I believe that reason and nature teacheth me surely that miracles be things that can not be done/ I am not in this deceived though I may be in such other things deceived as seem impossible and yet may be done. And therefore as concerning miracles in which yourself will agree that I am not by any mistaking of reason and nature deceived/ ye may not yourself me thinketh say nay/ but that I may well with reason believe them twain against all them that will tell me they have seen such things don as yourself doth agree/ that they twain that is to wit nature and reason doth verily and truly show me can not be done. what manner of things be those q I. Mary miracles quoth he such as yourself will agree to be done against nature. give us thereof quoth I sum ensample. As if men quoth he would now come tell me that at our lady of rouncyvale/ there were a deed child restored again to life/ let that quoth I be one/ and let another be that a bishop in the building of his church finding one beam cut a great deal to short for his work/ drew it forth between another man & him four foot (& ye will) longer than it was and so made it serve/ Be it by my troth q he. will we quoth I take for the third/ that a man was by miracle in a pater noster while/ conveyed a mile of from one place to another. be it so quoth he. Now they that should tell me quod he that they had seen these three miracles were I bound to believe them? whether ye were bound quoth I or no/ we shall see ferther after/ But now why should ye not of reason trust them if the men be credible/ and earnestly report it/ and peradventure on there oaths depose it/ having no cause to fain it nor likely to lie and be forswornen for nought. I will quod he not believe them because that nature and reason are two recordies more to be believed than all they that bear witness against them. why quoth I what doth reason & nature tell you. They twain tell me quod he that those iii things can not be done/ which those men say they saw done. wot you quoth I that reason and nature tell you so. ye marry quoth he that I wot well they do/ & I think yourself will agree that they tell me so. Nay by saint Mary sit quod I that will I not● for I think that neither reason nor nature telleth you so/ but rather both two tell you clean the contrary/ that is to wite that they both bear witness that those three things and such other like be things that may be well ●nd easily done/ ye quoth he: marry this is another way. Then have we walked wrong a while if ye prove that. Me thinketh quod I no thing more easy to prove than that/ For I pray you tell me quod I do reason and nature show you that there is a god or not? Faith showeth me that surely quoth he/ but whither nature and reason shew●● me or no that I doubt/ sith great reasoned men and philosophers have doubted thereof And some of them plainly persuaded and in believe that there was none at all/ and the hole people of the world in effect fallen from knowledge or believe of god in to Idolatry & worship of mammotties. Nay quoth I there is little doubt I trowe●but that nature & reason giveth us good knowledge that there is a god. for albe it the gentylys worshipped among them a thousand false God's/ yet all that proveth that there was and is in all men's heads a secret consent of nature that god there is or else they would have worshipped none at all. Now as for the philosophers though a very few doubted/ and one or twain thought there was none/ yet as one swallow maketh not summer so the folly of so few maketh no change of the matter against all the hole number of the old philosophers. which as saint Poule confesseth found out by nature and reason that there was a god either maker or governor or both of all this hole engine of the world. The marvelous beauty & constant course whereof/ showeth well that it neither was made nor governed by chance. But when they had by these visible things knowledge of his invisible majesty/ than did they/ as we do/ fell from the worship of him to the worship of Idols as now do christian men/ not as herytyques lay to the charge of good people in doing reverence to saints / he wrought it not to the vttermo●●s of his power/ but with such degrees of goodness as his high pleasure liked to limit. For else were his work of as infinite ꝑfeccy●n as himself. And of such infinite equal perfection was there by god brought forth nothing but only the two persons of the trinity/ that is to wit the son & the holy ghost. of which two the son was first by the father begotten/ & after the holy ghost by the father and the son/ after I say in order of beginning but not in time produced and brought forth. And in this high generation and production did the doers work both willingly & naturally/ & after the utterest parfection of themself/ which they did only therein ● in none other thing. And therefore god might break up the hole world if he would & make a better by & by. and not only change in the natural course of this world sum things to the better. How be it god in working of miracles doth nothing against nature/ but some special benefit above nature. And he doth not against you that doth another a good torn which ye be not able to do. And therefore sith god may do what he will being almighty/ and in doing of miracles he doth for the better/ neither reason nor nature showeth you that they which say they saw such miracles/ do tell you a thing that can not be done/ sith ye have no reason to prove that god either can not do it or will not do it. For sith he can do it and it may be that he will do it/ why should we mistrust good & honest men that say they saw him do it.   

The ix chapter.  
¶ The author showeth 〈◊〉 albe it men m●y mistrust some of the p●●tyculer miracles/ yet c●● there no reasonable 〈◊〉 neither deny nor 〈◊〉/ but that ●any miracles hath there been done and wrought.  
Forsooth quoth he & yet 〈◊〉 for miracles I were not for all this bound to believe any. for I spoke n●uer yet with any man that cou●e tell me that ever he saw any ¶ It may q I fortune you to live so long that it shall find no man that was by at your crystening/ nor when ye were bishopped neither. ¶ Marry q he for oughta I wots I have lived so long all ready. ¶ why doubt we not than q I whither ye were ever christened or not? ¶ For every man quoth he presumeth & believeth that I am christened/ as a thing so commonly done/ that we reckon ourself sure that no man leaveth it ●ndone. ¶ I● the comen presumpsyon quod I sufficiently serve you to set your mind in surety/ than albeit miracles be nothing commonly & customably done/ nor that no presumption can suffy●●ently serve for the proof of this miracle or that/ yet hath there ever from the beginning of the world in every nation christian ● he then/ and almost every town at so● dry times so many miracles and m●●uayls been wrought beside the come● cour● of nature/ that I think thorough the world it is as well believed universally that miracles and maruayl● the● be/ as any thing is believed that men look upon. So that if comen presumpsion serve you/ ye may as I said as w●l believe that miracles be done/ 〈◊〉 that yourself was ever cry●●enyd. For I dare well say that the●e ●r a thousand that bele●e there hath been miracles done/ against one that believeth that ye were ever cry●●enyd/ or ever wist whether ye were borne or n●t. ¶ Nor the doctors of Cry●●ys church did n●u●r mistrust the wonders & m●r●●yl● t●●t the ●●●nymes tell and write too ha●e been done by their false God's/ but assigneth them to have been done by the devil thorough god sufferance for thyllusyon of them that with idolatry had deserved to be deluded. And whither they be miracles by which name we commonly call the wonders wrought by god or merueyles done by the devil it forceth not for this purpose of ours. For if ye grant that the devil may do any by God's sufferance/ ye can not say nay but god may much more ●asily do himself. ¶ And sith ye be a christian man and receive scripture I might in this matter quoth I have choked you long a go/ with the manifold miracles and marvels that be showed there.   

¶ The ten chapter.  
¶ Thauthor proveth that many things daily done by nature or craft whereof we nothing marvel at all/ be more marvelous and more wonderful in deed than be the miracles that we most marvel of and repute most incredible.  
NAy quoth he surely though it hath done me good to here what ye would say/ yet I neither doubt nor I suppose no good man else/ but that god hath beside the comen course of nature wrought many miracles. But yet of those that men tell of/ as done in our time/ by which ye would it should seem that it were well proved that the praying to saints/ going on pilgrimages/ & worshipping of images were well and sufficiently proved/ all though there were none other proof thereupon/ of these miracles did I mean/ in the report of which me thinketh I need not believe a comen fame of this miracle and that begun by such silly woman seeking saint Sith whē●he syghyth for myscasting other ●ays. Of these miracles I speak/ & all such as men say now adays be done at divers pylgrymagis by divers saints or divers images/ in which the thynkyth that such as be told to be done which nature and reason saith be impossible/ I may well mistrust the tellers. Or else how many of them shall make me a sufficient proof of an impossible matter? One or two or three either seemeth me to few to trust their credence in a thing so incredible. And if I shall not believe them till I find many recordys'/ I ween I were fain to wander the world about or I provided many miracles sufficiently/ of such I say as ye ꝓue your pilgrimages by. ¶ your few words q I have wraped in them many things that seem somewhat as they be couched together. which when we see them unfolded and consider each part a sunder/ than may we better examine th●m & better see whereof they serve. ¶ first ye speak of seeking to saints for sleight causes. as for the loss or miss of kyttis ka●s. Than ye would wit how many ye must here say they saw a miracle or ye should of reason believe it. Thirdly ye think ye were like to go long or ye should find any proved true. Finally when ye say that ye mean only those miracles that men tell of/ as done at pylgr●magys/ ye seem to put still a differens between those miracles wrought in pylgrymag● & such as are wrought by god otherwise/ The cause whereof I must ferther ask you after. For I perceive not well what ye mean by that/ ¶ But first where as ye speak still as though ye might mistrust them were they never so many: because they tell you a thing that reason & nature sayeth is impossible/ me thinketh that ye should now change that word. For I have all ready/ provided that reason & nature say not that a miracle is impossible/ but only that it is impossible to nature. And they confess both that miracles be possible to god and they that report them do report them for such. And therefore they do report you none impossible tale. For the clearer consideration whereof/ let us resort to the miracles which we were agreed should stand for examples/ And first if men should tell you that they saw before an image/ of the crucifix a deed man raysid to life/ ye would much merua●le thereof/ and so might ye well. yet could I tell you sum what that I have seen myself that me thinketh as great a marvel/ but I have no list to tell you because that ye be so circumspect and aware in believe of any miracles/ that ye would not believe it for me but mistrust me for it. Nay sir quoth he in good faith/ if a thing seemed me never so far unlykly/ yet if ye would ernystly say that yourself have seen it/ I neither would nor could mistrust it, well quoth I than ye make me the bolder to tell you. And yet will I tell you nothing/ but that I would if need were find you good witness to prove it. It shall not need sir q he/ but I beseech you let me here it. For sooth quoth I because we speak of a man raised from death to life. There was in the parish of saint stevenes in walbrok in london where I dwelled before I came to chelsyth/ a man and a woman which at yet quick and quething and young were they both. The eldyst I am sure passed not xxiiii It happened them as doth among young folk/ the tone to cast a mind to the t'other. And after many lettuce/ for the maidens mother was mich against it/ at last they came to gether and were married in saint Stephen's church which is not greatly famous for any miracles/ but yet yearly on saint Stevyn day it is somewhat sought unto/ & visited with folks devotion. But now short tale to make/ this young woman as the manner is in brydis ye wot well was at night brought to bed with honest women. And than after that went the bride groom to bed. And every body went their ways & left them twain there alone. And that same night/ yet abide let me not lie. now in faith to say the troth I am not very sure of the time/ but surely as it appeared afterward it was of likelihood the same night or sum other time soon after except it happened a little afore. No force for the time quoth he. Troth quod I/ and as for the matter all the parish will testify for truth the woman was known for so honest. But for the conclusion the seed of them twain/ turned in the woman's body/ first into blood/ and after into shape of man child. And than waxed quick and she great therewith. And was within the year delivered of a fair boy/ and forsooth it was not then (for I saw it myself) passing the length of a foot. And I am sure he is grown now an inch longer than I. How long is it ago quoth he. By my faith q I/ about xxi. years. Tush quoth he this is a worthy miracle. In good faith quoth I never wist I that any man could tell that he had any other beginning. And me thynkyth that this is as great a miracle as the raising of a deed man. ¶ If it seem so q he to you/ than have you a marvelous seeming/ for I ween it seemeth so to no man else. ¶ No quoth I can ye tell what is the cause? None other surely but that the acquaintance and daily beholding taketh a way the wonderyng/ as we nothing wonder at the ebbing and flowing of the see/ or the thamies because we daily see it. But he that had never seen it nor hard thereof would at the first sight wonder sore thereat to see that great water come wallowing up against the wind keeping a comen course to and fro/ no cause ꝑseyved that driveth him. If a man borne blind had suddenly his sight what wonder would he make to see the son the moan/ and the stars/ where as one that hath seen them sixteen year to gether marueylyth not so much of them all/ as he would wonder at the first sight of a pecokkies tail. And verily cause can I see none/ why we should of reason mo●e marvel of the revyuing of a deed man than of the bredyng/ bringing forth and growing of a chylle unto the state of a man. No more marvelous is a koko than a cokk/ though the tone be seen but in summer and the ●other all the year. And I am sure if ye saw deed men as commonly called a gain by miracle/ as ye see men brought forth by nature/ ye would reckon it less marvel to bring the soul again into the body/ keeping yet still his shape and his organies not much perished/ than of a little seed to make all that gear new/ and make a new soul thereto. Now if ye never had seen any gone in your days nor herd of any before/ if ii men should tell you the tone that he had wist a man in a pater noster while conveyed & carried a mile of from one place to another by miracle/ & the other should tell you that he had seen a stone more than a man's weight carried more than a mile in as lyttyll space by craft/ which of these would you by your faith take for the more incredyble? ¶ Surely q he both twain were very strange. But yet I could not cheese but think it were rather true that god did the tone/ than that any craft of man could do the t'other. well quoth I let us than to our thryde ensample. If it were showed you that saint Etkenwalde or his s●ster drew out a piece of timber that was cut to short for the roof in making barking abbey/ should this be so incredible to you to believe that they drew in length a piece of wood by the power and help of God's hand/ when we see daily a great piece of silver brass/ latin or iron drawn a length into small wire/ as wonderfully by man's hand   

¶ The xi chapter  
¶ The author showeth that a miracle is not to be mistrusted though it be done in a small matter and seemeth upon a sleight occasion.  
NOw though ye would peradventure as ye seem to do/ reckon this cause very sleight for god to show such an high miracle/ sith there might have been without miracle a longer piece of timber gotten/ & so ye would happily mistrust it for the slender occasion/ resembling it to the myscasting of some good huswyvys kays/ god hath I ween so much wit of himself/ that he needeth not our advice to inform him what thing were sufficient occasion to work his wonders for. But & if ye read in the books of dioclesian/ saint Gregory/ saint Austyne/ saint Hyerom/ & many other holy virtuous men/ ye shall (except ye believe them not) learn & know that god hath for his saruanties done many a great miracle in very small matters. And so much the more are we bound to his goodness in that he vouchesavyth so familiarly in small things to show us so great a token of his mighty godhead. & no reason were it to withdraw his thank & honour because of his familiar goodness. And if ye peraventure would not believe their wrytyngis/ go to Crystis gospel & look on his first miracle whether he might not have provided for wine without miracle. But such was his pleasure in a small matter to do a great miracle for sum show of his godhead among them whom he vouch saufyd/ where on the other side afore Herode that would fain have seen sum miracle where it stood upon his life & might have delivered him from the jews/ yet would he not vouchsafe either to show the proud curious king one miracle/ or speak one word. So that tymys placies & occasions/ reason is that we suffer to rest in his arbyterment. & not look to prescribe & appoint at our pleasure/ and else blaspheme them & say we will not believe them.   

¶ The xii chapter.  
¶ The author somewhat notyth the froward minds of many folk that would be very hard to believe a man in a miracle upon his oath/ & very light in a shrewd tale to believe a woman on her word.  
NOw where ye require how many witness should be requisite and suffice to make you think yourself in reason to have good cause to believe so strange a thing/ me thinketh that right few were sufficient of them that would say they saw a great good thing done by the power & goodness of god. except it be hard for us to believe either that god is so mighty that he may do it or so good that he would do it ¶ But because ye would wit of me how many recordies were requisite/ the thing standeth not so much in number as in weight. Some twain be more credible than sum ten And albe it that I see not greatly why I should mistrust any one that seemeth honest & telleth a good tale of god in which there appeareth no special cause of lying/ yet if any witness will serve you/ than would I wit of you how many yourself would agree. For I now put case that there came ten divers honest men of good substance out of ten divers parties of the realm/ ●che off them with an offering at one pilgrimage/ as for ensample at our Lady of Ipswych/ & each one of them affirming upon their oath a miracle done upon themself in sum great so dayn help well appearing to pass the power of craft or nature/ would ye not believe that among them all at the leastwise twain of those ten said true? ¶ No by our lady q he not & they were ten and twenty ¶ why so q I. ¶ Marry quoth he for were they never so many having none other witness but each man telling his tale for himself/ they be but single all & less than single. for every miracle hath but one record/ and yet he not credible in his own cause. & so never a miracle well provided. ¶ well said I/ I like well your wisdom that ye be so circumspect that ye will nothing believe without good sufficient & full proof. I put you than quoth I another case that ten young women not very specially known for good but taken out at adventure/ dwelling all in one town/ would report & tell that a frere of good fame hearing their confessions at a pardon/ would have given them in penance to let him lie with them/ on your faith would ye not believe that among so many sum of them said true? yes that I would quoth he by the marry mass believe they said true all ten & durst well swear for them & they were but ii why so q I they be as sigle witness as the other of whom I told you before. for none of them can tell what was said to Turrian other & yet they be vnsworn also/ & therewith be they but women which be more light & less to be regarded/ dwelling all in one town also/ & thereby might they the more easily conspire a false tale. They be q he witness good ynogh for such a matter/ the thing is so likely of it self that a freer willbe womanysh look the holy whoreson never so sayntly. ¶ ye deny not q I but god may as easily do a good turn by miracle as any man may do an evil by nature. That is true q he & he list. well quoth I see now what a good way ye be in/ that are of your own good godly mind more ready to believe two. simple women that a man will do nought/ than ten or twenty men that god will do good   

The xiii chapter.  
¶ Thauthor showeth that untoward mind of many men/ which in miracles so highly touching the honour of god & we'll of their own souls/ will neither believe other folk that tell than/ nor themself vouchsafe to go prove them. BUt sith that this kind of proof will not suffice you/ I dare say if ye would seek & inquire/ ye should find many done in your days in the presence of much people. where should I see y● q he? ye might q I upon good friday every year this ii C. year till within this .v. year that the turks have take the town/ have seen one of the thorns that was in Crystis crown/ bud & bring forth flowries in the service time/ if ye would have gone to the Rodies: So far q he ●ay yet had I liefer have God's blessing to believe that I see not/ than go so far therefore. I am well apaid q I thereof. for if ye had liefer believe than take the pain of a long pilgrimage/ ye will never be so stiff in any opinion that ye will put yourself in jeopardy for ꝑtynacy & stubborn standing by your part. No marry q he I warrant you I will never be so mad to hold till it wax to hot. For I have such a fond fancy of mine own that I had liefer shiver & shake for cold in the myddies of summer/ than be burned in the myddis of winter. Merely said q I. but yet in earnest where such a solemn yearly miracle is wrought so wondrously in the face of the world before so great a multitude/ it is a great untowardness in a thing so highly touching the honour of god & health of our own soul/ both to mistrust all them that say they have seen it/ & either of sloth or incrudelyte not vouchsafe himself to prove it. If I should have gone quoth he & found it a lie/ than had I walked a wise journey. & ō the other side if I should have seen there such a thing myself/ yet could I scantly reckon myself sure. No q I that were a strange case. Not very strange q he. For where ye speak of miracles done before a multyrude/ a man may be deceived therein right well.   

The xiiii chapter.  
¶ The messenger maketh objection the miracles showed before a multitude may be feigned/ & by the author showed how the goodness of god bringyth shortly the truth of such falsehood to light/ with ensamples thereof one or two rehearsed. & farther showed that many miracles there be which no good christian man may deny to be true.  
SOme pteste to bring up a pilgrimage in his ꝑyshe may devise some false fellow feigning himself to come seek a saint in his church/ And there suddenly say that he hath gotten his sight. Then shall ye have the bells rungen for a miracle/ And the fond folk of the country soon made fools. Than women coming thither with their candles. & the person buying of sum la●e beggar iii or four pair of their old ●rutches with xii pens spent in men & women of wax thrust thorough divers placis some with arrows/ & some with rusty knyvys will make his offeryngys' for one vii year worth twice his tithes. This is q I very truth that such things may be & sumtime ●o be in dede● As I remember me that I have hard my father tell of a beggar that in king Edwardis days the fourth came with his wife to saint Albonies/ And there was walking about the town begging a five or six days before the kings coming th●ther saying that he was borne blind/ & never saw in his life/ And was warned in his dream that he should con out of Berwyke where he said he had ever dwelled to seek saint albon/ And that he had been at his shrine and had not been helped/ And therefore he would go seek him at some other place/ for he had hard some say sin he can/ that saint albonies body should be at Colon/ And in deed such a contemcyon hath there been. But of troth as I am surly informed he lieth here at saint albonies/ saving some relics of him which they there show shrined. But to tell you forth when the king was cummen & the town full/ suddenly this blind man at saint Albonies shrine had his sight again/ And a miracle solemnly rungen/ and Te deunsongen/ so that nothing was talked of in all the town but this miracle. So happened it than that duke hunfrey of gloucester a great wise man & very well learned/ having great joy to see such a miracle/ called the poor man unto him And first showing himself joyous of God's glory so showed in the getting of his sight/ & exhorting him to meekness & to none ascribing of any part the worship to himself/ nor to be proud of the people's praise which would call him a good & a godly man thereby/ At last he looked well upon his eyen and asked whither he could never see nothing at all in all his life before. And when as well his wife as himself affirmed fastly no/ than he looked advisedly upon his eyen again/ & said I believe you very well/ for me thinketh that ye can not see well yet. yes sir q he I thank god & his holy martyr I can see now as well as any man. ye can quod the duke/ what colour is my gown? Than anon the beggar told him. what colour q he is this man's gown? he told him also● & so forth without any stykking/ he told him the names of all the colours that could be showed him. And when my lord saw that/ he bad him walk faytoure/ And made him be set openly in the stokkies. For though he could have seen woodenly by miracle the dy●ference between diverse colours/ yet could he not by the sight so suddenly tell the names of all these colours but if he had known them before no more than the names of all the men that he should suddenly se. Lo therefore I say quod your friend who may be sure of such things when such pageanties be played before all the town. I remember me now what a work I have hard of that was at lempster in the kings father's days where the prior brought privily a strange wench into the church that said she was sent thither by god/ & would not lie out of the church/ And after she was gratid within iren gratꝭ above in the rood fit where it was believed that she lived without any meet or drink only by angel's food. And divers times she was houseled in sight of the people with Turrian host vnconsecrate/ & all the people looking upon/ there was with a small here that conveyed the host from the paten of the chalice out of the pryours handꝭ into her mouth as though it can alone/ so that all the people not of the town only/ but also of the con●rey about/ took her for a very quick saint/ and daily sought so thick to see her/ that many that could not come near to her cried out aloud/ ●oly maiden Elyzabeth help me● and were fain to throw their offering over their fellows heddis for prece. Now lay the prior with holy maiden Elyzabeth nightly in the rood loft/ till she was a●ter taken out & tried in the keeping of my lady the king's mother. And by the longing for meet with voydaunce of that she had etyn which had no sayntly savour/ she was perceived for no saint and confessed all the matter. In faith q I it had been great aluys the prior & she had been burned to gether at one stake. what came of the prior? ¶ Quod he that can I not tell/ But I ween he was put to such punishment as the poor nun was/ that had given her in penance to say this verse. Miserere mei deus/ quoniam conculcavit me homo. with a great thre●e that and she did so any more she should say the hole psalm. But as for holy may den Elsabeth I hard say she lived & fared well/ & was a comen harlot at Calyce many a fair day after/ where she laughed at the matter full merely. The more pity q I that she was so let pas. ¶ That is troth quod he. But now what say you what trust can we have/ or at least way what surety can we have in such things when we see them faynid so shamefully in the face of the world/ & so much people abused so far/ that they would not have letted to swear/ & some to jeopard their lives thereon/ that all this work was wrought by God's hand till the troth came to light/ and that drab driven out of the church in the dyvyls' name. ¶ verily said I there was abusion in the tone side/ & great folly in the other side. And as the noble duke Humfrey wisely found out the falsehood of that blyson beggar/ so did that noble lady the king's mother prudently decipher & found out that bestely filth. And to say the troth there was cause enough in both these parties whereof the people might reasonably gather so much suspicion/ that if they had made thereupon sufficient inquisition & search/ they could never have been so far●e abused. For both might they well mistrust a beggars word whom they had but newly known & well likely to lie for to win fu●st favour & after money/ And also men might well think that a young she saint was not meetly to be shrived quick in a monastery among a meinie of monks. And yet in conclusion because no such feigned wonders should enfane god very miracles/ his goodness shortly brought them both to knowledge. And so doth his especial cure & providence bring ever shortly such falsehood and faytery to light to their shame and confusion. And as he did in Berna a great city in Almaigne bring to knowledge the falls miracles/ whereby certain freres abused the people/ for which they were openly burned. And so god always bringeth such false miracles to light. ¶ Nay nay q he there be many such I warrant you that never ●um to light/ & are still taken for very good ¶ ye cannot very well warrant it q I. For sith god brought to light the false feigned miracle of the prestis of the idol Bell in the old time/ as appetyth in the xiiii. chapter of the prophet Danyell/ it is more likely that among crysten men he will suffer no such things long lie hid. And also how can ye warrant that many of th●se miracles be false.  
For while there is no doubt but many be true/ and ye know not any which ye precisely know for false/ ye be not sure whither any be such or not. Marry quoth he that reason holdeth as well on the other side. For sith I know not any which I precisely know for true/ I know not whither any be true or not. Nay quoth I that argument will not serve you so. For though no man bidith you to believe that every thing is true that is told for a miracle/ yet sum there be of which ye must needs reckon yourself sure/ and of which ye can not if ye be a christen man have any scruple or doubt. ye quoth he? Fain would I wit which were one of those. Marry quoth I all that are written in the gospel. Marry quoth he that wot I well/ but them we speak not of/ for they were done by god himself. why q I be they not so all. If ye will not agree that ye be not sure of any which be told by saints/ whatsaye you by the miracles of th'apostles written by saint luke. Nay q he ye miss take me yet/ for I do not mean any mistrust in the miracles done of old time by god for his apostles or holy martyrs in corroboration and setting forth of the faith. I mean only these miracles that men tell and talk of now a days/ to be done at those images where these pilgrimages be/ and where we see sum of them ourself proved plainly false/ And yet told for so true/ and so many false shrews affirm it/ so many siple souls trust it/ so much foolish folk be live it/ that a man may well with reason mistrust all the remnant. verily quoth I and yet I think that ●ryste among christ people suffereth not such things to hap oft/ nor such delusyon to last long/ but shortly (to their shame as it hath appeared in some) doth vt●●r ● make open their falsehood as himself said of all such. That ye whysper one in an others ere shallbe preached out a loud upon the ridge of the house roof.   

¶ The xu chapter  
¶ The author showeth that if of those miracles that are told and written to be done at divers pilgrimages & commynly believed for very true/ we certainly knew some falsely feigned/ yet were that no cause to mistrust the remnant.  
But be it that among so many miracles as be daily told & written done at divers pilgrimagꝭ/ between which miracles and other why ye put a deference we shall as I said before know ferther your mind hereafter/ And be it also that of such as long have be reputed and still taken for true/ yourself undoubtedly knew sum for very false/ would ye therefore think that among all the remnant/ there were never one true? what if ye find some fair woman painted whose colour ye had went were natural/ will ye never after believe that any woman in the world hath a fair colour of herself? If ye find some false flatterers that long seemed friendly will ye take ever after all the world for such? If some prove stark ipochrytes whom the world would have sworn for good & godly men/ shall we therefore mistrust all other for their sake and ween there were none good at all? By my troth q he I road once in good company/ & to say the troth for good company to walsynghan in pilgrimage/ where a good fellows horse so fell in halting that he was fain to higher another and let him go lose/ which was so lean and so poor and hallted so sore the empty as he was he could scant keep foot with us. And when we had went we should have left him behind/ suddenly he spied a mare/ and forth he lymped on three legs so lustily/ that his master's horse with four feet could ●●ant over take him. But when he caught him & came again/ he swore in great anger all the oaths he might swear that he would trust halting sir Thomas the worse while he lived. what was that halting sir thomas quod I. Mary q he their parish pressed as he told us/ as lean and as poor and as halting as his horse/ and as holy to. But sin he would while he lived mistrust y● halting pressed for his halting horse/ if I find an holy whoreson halt in ypochrysye/ I shall not fail while I live to trust all his fellows the worse. well quoth I ye speak merely/ but I wots well ye will do better what so ever ye lay. Nor I am sure though ye see sum white safyre or byrall so well counterfeit/ and so set in a ring that a right good iveller will take it for a dyomound/ yet will ye not doubt for all that but that there be in many other rings all ready set right diamountꝭ in deed. Nor ye will not mistrust saint Peter for judas. Nor though the Jews were many so naughty that they put christ to deth● yet ye be wiser I wot● well than the gentyllwoman was/ which in talking once with my father when she hard say that our lady was a jew/ first could not believe it/ but said what ye mok I will I pray you tell troth. And when it was so fully affermede that she at last believed it/ & was she a jew quod she so help me god and halydom I shall love her the worse while I live. I am sure ye will not do so/ nor mistrust all for some neither men nor miracles   

The xvi chapter  
¶ Thauthor showeth that who so would inquire should soon find that at pilgrimages been daily many great & undoubted miracles wrought and well known. And specially he speaketh of the great & open miracle showed at our lady of Ippyl which of late upon the daughter of Sir Roger went worth knight.  
ANd as for the point that we spoke of concerning miracles done in our days at diverse images where these pilgrimages be/ yet could I tell you some such done so openly/ so far from all cause of suspicion/ and thereto testified in such suf●ycyent wise/ that he might seem almost mad that her●g the hole matter will mistrust the miracles. Among which I durst boldly tell you for one the wonderful work of god that was wythyn these few years wrought in the house of a right worshipful knight sir Roger wentworth upon diverse of his children/ and specially one of his daughters a very fair young gentle woman of xii years of age in marvelous manner vexed & turmē●yd by our ghostly enemy the devil/ her mind alienated & raving with despising and blasphemy of god/ and hatred of all hallowed things/ with knowledge and perse●uynge of the hallowed from the unhallowed/ all were she nothing warned thereof. And after that moved in her own mind and moneshed by the will of god to go to our lady of Ippyswyche. In the way of which pilgrimage she prophesied and told many things done and said at the same time in other placies which were proved true/ and many things said lying in her trance of such wisdom and letning that right cunning men highly marveled to here of so young an unlernede maiden when herself wist not what she said/ such things uttered and spoken as well learned men might have missed with a long study, and finally being brought and laid before the image of our blessed lady/ ●as there in the sight of many worshipful people so grievously turmentede/ and in face eyen look & countenance so grisly changed with her mouth drawn aside/ and her eyen layed out upon her cheeks that it was a terrible sight to behold. And after many marvelous things at the same time showed upon divers parssones by the devil thorough God's sufferance/ as well all the remnant as the maiden herself in the presence of all the company restored to their good state perfitly cured & suddenly. And in this matter no pretext of begging/ no suspicion of feigning/ no possibility of counterfeiting/ no simpleness in the seers/ her father and mother right honourable and rich sore abashed to see such chances in their children/ the witness/ great number/ and many of great worship/ wisdom and good experience/ the maid herself to young to fain/ and the fashion itself to strange for any man to fain/ And the end of the matter virtuous/ the virgin so moved in her mind with the miracle/ that she forthwith for aught her father could do/ forsook the world and professed religion in a very good and godly company at the mynoresse where she hath lived well & graciously ever sins.   

The xvii chapter  
¶ The messenger lay forth objections against miracles done at pilgrimages/ of which he confesseth many to be true. but he layeth causes and reasons whereby he saith that many men be moved to believe and think that those miracles that be done there be done by the devil to set our hartis upon idolatry by the worshipping of images in stead of god.  
BUt now albe it as I said that I might allege you this miracle and prove it you in such wise that I wots well ye would be as far out of all doubt thereof as ye would be deep in the marvel of the miracle/ And peradventure diverse other could I show you done of late at diverse pilgrimages/ and prove them well to/ yet would I fain first hear of you/ what distinction and difference is that that ye make/ and wherefore ye make it between the miracles done of old time/ and these that be now adays done at these pilgrimages. Sir quod he sum what a little I touched it in the beginning & made in manner a glance thereat. But loath were I to hit it with a full shot and a sharp as I have seen sum with such reasons cleave the prick in twain/ that they seemed to bear over the but And all●whych reasons I would be loath in so sore manner to allege/ lest I might happily give you sum occasion to think that either I set to somewhat of mine own/ or else at the lest wise liked well that side and were a favourer of the factyon/ Nay nay quoth I fear not that hardly/ for neither an I so suspecyouse to mistrust that one thinketh evil because he defendeth the worse part well by way of argument and reasoning/ And also I trust that all their shottꝭ shallbe so far to feeble to bear over that but that few of them shall touch the mark/ many to faint to pierce the paper/ And sum to high/ and sum to short/ And some walk to wide of that but by a bow. And therefore I require you spare not to bring forth all that ever ye have hard ●or that ye think may be said in the matter. ¶ Sir quod he sith ye can here it so indifferently/ I shall not spare to speak it. And surely to begin withal that I think true I will not fail to confess. For albe it that I have long sticked with you to withstand any credence to be given to miracles done now adays/ in which I have much the lenget stykked because of sum whom I have known ere this so far from the believe of any miracles at all/ that in good faith they put me half in doubt whether they believe that there were god at all/ if they dared for dread & shame have said all that they seemed to think/ yet to say the truth I never heard any thing said so sore therein that ever moved me to think that any reason would bear the importune mistrust of them/ that among so many Turrian open miracle as is daily in divers placies done/ would ween that none at all were true. But verily as I begun a little to touch in the beginning whether these miracles be made by god & for good saints or by the devil for our deceit and delusion/ albeit I believe & ever will as the church doth/ yet sum men among sum such things say therein that I am driven to do as I do in other articlies of the faith/ leanly fast unto belief for any reason that I find to make them answer with. For first they take for a ground that the devil may do miracles/ Or if we list/ not to suffer them called by that name/ the matter shallbe thereby nothing amended. for if we will have only called by the name of miracles things by god doen above nature/ yet will we not deny but that god suffereth the devil to work wonders which the people can not discern from miracles. And therefore when they see them/ miracles shall they call them/ and for miracles shall they take them. Now sith it so is that the devil may do such things/ whereby shall we be ●ure that god doth them? And sith the devil may do them/ & we be not sure that god doth them/ why may not we aswell believe that the devil doth them ¶ Marry said I ye told me that ye set nought by Logyk/ but now ye play the Logycyen out right. How be it that argument men may torn on the other side & say/ that sith god may do them much better than the devil/ and we be not sure that the devil doth them/ why should we not rather believe that god doth them/ which may do them better. And much more reason it is where a wonderful work is wrought there/ to ascribe it to god the master of all mastryes'/ rather than the devil that can do nothing but by su●fraunce/ except we see some cause that cannot suffer that work to be reckoned goddies. ¶ well q he/ than is it reason that we show you sum such cause. It is quoth he cause enough in that we see that god hath in scripture foreboden such ymagry/ and that under great malediction/ As yn the law. Non facies tib● sculptile. And in the psalm. In exitu israel de egipto/ where he furst by the mouth of the Prophet/ dyscrybyth the folly of such as worshyppyth those images/ that hath cries and cannot here/ hands and can not feel/ feet and cannot go/ mouth & cannot speak. All which absurdytees & unreasonable follies appeareth aswell in the worship of our imagis as in the paynims idols. And after he showeth the malediction that shall fall thereupon/ saying like mote they be to them all such as make them/ & all such as putteth their trust in them. And forthwith he declareth in whom good men have their trust/ and the profit that procedyth thereupon saying. Domus israel speravit in domino adiutor eorum et ꝓtector eorumest/ The house of Israel hath put their trust in our lord the helper and defender of them is he. Now when the words of god be clear/ open and plain upon this side/ what reason is it to believe the commenties and glosses of men wherewith ye would wind out against she true texts of god? what should we give credence to thennsample of men's doings against the plain commandment of God's wrytyngys'. And when that only christ is our saviour and our mediator to bring our nature again to god/ and our only proctor and advocate afore his father and may help us best and will help us most/ what shall we make either our lady or enny other creature our advocate or pray to them which of likelihood here us not/ For there can none of them be present at so many placies at once as they be called upon. and if they were/ yet art they no near us then god him self/ nor so fain would that we did well as he that died for us. and therefore when we not only do them reverence (which I were content were done them for god's sake as ye said before) but also pray to them/ we do christ and god great Injury. For if we pray to them as medytours & advocatꝭ for us/ we take fro christ his office & give it them. if we ask help & health of them/ then make we then plain god dies and betake to them the power of the godhead. For only god is it that giveth all good as witnesseth saint james. Every good and very perfit gift cometh from above descending from the father of lyghties. And surely if we consider how we behave us to them though ye say that all the honour given to saints redoundeth unto god/ sith it is done as ye say not for their own sakies but for his/ yet would not I ween that god be well content that we should for his sake do to any creature like honour as to himself. For scripture sayeth that he will not give his glory from him nor to any other creature like honour as to himself/ And therefore the scolys as I here say devise a triple difference in worshipping/ calling the one dulya the reverence or worship that man doth to man/ as the bond man to the lord. The second yꝑdulya that a man doth to a more excellent creature as to angels or saints. The third latria the veneration honour and adoration that creatures doth only to god. In which of these parties ye put the worshipping of images/ I am neither so well seen therein to tell/ nor so curious greatly to care. But this I see well if any of all these iii kinds of worship be better than other/ thimages hath it. For they have all that ever we can do. For what do we to god when we do worship him in that fashion that they call latria/ but we do the same to saints and images both? if it stand in kneeling/ we kneel to sainties and their images. if in praying/ we pray as bitterly to them as to god. if in sensing and setting up of candyllies we cense them also and set some saint seven. candles against god one. So that what so ever fashion of worshipping latria be/ the same is as largely done to saints and images as to god/ And this not unto images only (which though they have no life have yet some shape and fashion after man) but as men ween unto pyggys' bonies also sometime. For what reverent honour is there daily done under the name and opinion of a saints relic/ to sum old rotten bone that was happily sometime as Chaucer saith a bone of some holy jews sheep. See we not that someone saints head is showed in iii placies And some one hole saints body lieth in divers contres/ if we believe the lies of the people. And in both the placies is that one body worshipped where the one or the other is false/ and one body mystakyn for another/ an evil man happily for a good. And yet will the priests of both placies take offryngꝭ and toll men thither with miracles to. In which case either must ye say that the miracles of the one place be false and feynid/ or else that miracles make not your matter good nor prove your pilgrimagꝭ true. & yet might all this gear be mich the better born if it were true the ye defend the things withal/ when ye say that in worshipping of saints and images men worship neither the tone nor the other as God's/ but things for the saints and the saints for god. But now as it seemeth the matter is in deed far otherwise/ For the people pray to the saints for their necessyties/ putting thereto trust for their petitions in the saints themself as though god gave it not but they. And in the images put the people their trust in stead of the saints self/ For albe it that it might stand with reason as ye have answered me that presupposed the miracles in these pilgrimages to be done by god/ the people might then with reason go seek and visit such placies as god by miracle declared that he would have himself or his holy saints sought and honoured in/ yet now this answer to wcheth the point but in part & matcheth not the hole matter/ For the people do not only visit these placies and there do all the worship to the saints that they can possible do to god (with hope of their help from the saints self/ which they should well wit only to be given by god/ and thus by this demeanour make the saints goddies fellows/ yt●s to say the servants matches with their master and the creatures maties to the maker) but also use themself in as religious fashion/ and as fervent affection to the images of stone or tree/ as either to saint or god. And plainly take these images for the saints self and for god himself. And put in these images of their pilgrimages their full hope & hole trust that they should put in god. ¶ which besides that I have said before appeareth well in this/ that they will make comparisons between our lady of Ipswych and our lady of walsyngam/ As weening the one image more of power than the t'other/ which they would never do/ but if in stead of our lady they put their trust in the Image self. And the people in speaking of our lady/ Of all our ladies sayeth one/ I love best our lady of walsingham/ And I saith the other our lady of Ipeswyche. In which words what meaneth she but her love and her affection to the sto●● that standeth in the chapel at walsyngham or Ipswych.  
¶ what say you when the people speak of this fashion in their painies & parelliss Help holy cross of Bradinan. Help our dear lady of walsyngham. Doth it not plainly appear that either they trust in the images in Crysties stead & our ladies'/ letting christ and our lady go/ or take at the lest wise those images so/ that they ween they were verily the tone Cryst the t'other our lady herself And so every way the faith and devotion withdrawn from god that should have it & our hearts by these images blinded and set upon the deed stockis and stonies. Now see the good fruit also that followeth thereupon. I let pass over the faytery and falsehood that is therein used among/ sometime by the priests/ sometime by beggars in feigning of false miracles. Look what devotion men come thither with. with the most come they that most abuse themself/ such I mean as most trust have and blind faith in these blind images. But the most part that cometh/ cometh for no devotion at all/ but only for good company to babble thitherward and drink drunk there/ and dance & rele homeward. And yet here is not all For I tell you nothing now of many a naughty pak/ many a flekke and his make that maketh their metyngꝭ at these wholesome hallows. And many that seemeth an honest housewife at home/ hath help of a bawd to bring her to mischief as she walketh abroad about her pilgrimages. I hard once when I was a child the good scottysh freer father d●●●ld whom I reckon surely for a saint if there be any in heaven/ I hard him preach at Paul'S cross that our lady was a virgin and yet at the pilgrymagꝭ be made many a foul meeting. And loud he cried out. ye men of london gang on yourself with your wyffies to wyllesoon in the devils name or else keep them at 'em with you with sorrow. And surely so many good men ween it were best/ considering that those vyagys' been but wandering about vanity or superstitious devotion/ and the next door to Idoletry when men have their affections in stead of god bounden to blokkies and stonies/ And now sith that this gear is such/ what marvel is it though (as I said before) the devil be glad to give attendance thereon/ and do for his part what he may to help his own devycies forward? Or what marvel is it though god in this cursed world when we fall from him to other/ and from that honour of himself to his saints/ when we do as the paynims did in stead of god worship mammotties/ and all this by falling to follow men's glosys before his one textis/ what wonder is it though god again serve us as he served them/ and suffer the devil delude us as he did them/ and make us leanly to false miracles as we fall wilfully to false goddies? Thus say they q he that speak on that side/ And yet much more than I can call to mind. But surely sith ye willed me to forbear nothing/ I have as I could rather set to somewhat not of mine own opinion/ but of mine own invention/ then any thing left out that I could remember which I had ever hard any man lay/ to ꝓue the miracles done at pilgrimages to be uncertain by whom they be wrought/ or rather to prove that they should not be god's miracles but the devils wonders.   

The xviii chapter  
¶ The author dyfferreth th'answer to the foresaid objections. & first by scripture he proveth that the church of christ can not err in any necessary article of christs faith. And in this chapter be those words of christ specially touched. Super cathedram Moysi sederunt. etc. Que dicunt vobis facite. que autem faciunt nolite facere/ concerning the authority of the church.  
surely quoth I for my part I can you very good thank for ye have not faintly defended your part as though it were a corrupted advocate that would by colusyon handle his clyentꝭ matter feebly for the pleasure of his adversary/ but ye have said therein/ I can tell whether as much as any man may say/ but certainly I suppose as mich as ye either have hard any man say or can yourself say/ And at the lest wise much more than I have hard of any man else/ or could have said of myself. And undoubted as ye spoke of shooting in the beginning/ this gear how near it goeth to the prick we shall see after. But this I promise you it would fain bear over the but & all. For if it might hold & be bidden by/ and were as well able to be proved true as I trust to prove it falls/ the but we shoot at were quite gone for any surety that we could reckon of our faith & cristendome. But now to come to the point/ Sith it is agreed all ready between us/ that at these images & pilgrimages miracles been there/ either showed by god for the comprobation of his pleasure therein/ or wonders wrought by the devil for our delusion & damnation/ If it may either appear to us that they be not done by the devil/ then will it well follow that they be done by god. Or if it be proved to be done by god for the good of his church/ then will it be clear enough that they be no wonders wrought by the devil to the deceit of christian people. And sith that either other of ●these parties proved/ implieth the reproof of your purpose/ I will assay to show/ & trust right well to prove you the troth of our side by sum one of these ways or peradventure by both/ that is to weet aswell in proving that god doth these miracles/ as in reproving & confuting that they should be done by the devil. And furst would I fain meet with your objections & answer them forthwith while they be fresh/ saving that me seemeth better for the while to differ them/ forasmuch as sum things therbe/ whereupon it will be requisite that we furst be both agreed: without which we were like to walk wide in words & run at all riot so lose/ that our matter could neither have ground/ order/ nor end. ¶ Now if I were in this matter to dispute with a paynim that would make the question betwine their miracles & ours/ albeit I should have a clear matter in th'end/ yet must it needs be a long matter & much entryked or it should come at th'end. And hole bokys would it hold/ both the confuting of theirs & unto them thassertacyon of our own/ specially for that they receive not our scripture/ & between them & us nothing common to ground upon but reason. And if we should dispute with a jew less labour should we have/ sith that we should have with him though he deny the new testament/ yet reason & the old testament agreed upon/ wherein we should not ●ary for the text but for the sentence and understanding. For therein we should have him stiffly withstand us. ¶ But now sith we shall in our matter dispute and reason with those that agree themself for christian men/ our dispicions is so much the shorter in that we must needs agree to gether in more thyngy●. For we must agree in reason where faith refusyth it not. And over that we shall agree upon the hole corpus of scripture/ aswell the new testament as the old. But in the interpretation we may peradventure stick. Is it not so? ¶ yes quod he. ¶ well quoth I/ is there any other thing wherein ye think that we shall vary/ but the interpretation of the scripture. ¶ Not that I remember quod he/ except the scripture it self whereupon we talk/ as of the worshipping of images or praying to saints/ in which men think there can be no great question if the scripture be well interpreted. ¶ ye do q I agree that such things as arn mentioned in the gospel spoken by christ unto saint Peter & other his apostles & disciples/ were not only said to themself/ nor only for themself/ but to them for theyer successors in Crysties flok/ And by them to us all/ that is to wete every man as shall appertain to his part. ¶ whereby mean you that q he. ¶ I mean quoth I as for ensample when he said/ Nisi abundaverit justicia vestra plusquam Scribarun & phariseorum/ non intrabitis i● regnum celorum. Except your justice abound & exceed the justice of the scribes & pharisees/ ye shall never come in heaven. And where he saith If thou wilt enter into the kingdom of heaven keep the commandments/ did he not say such things to them for all crystyn men that should come after? ¶ I think yes quoth he for the second word concerning the commaundmentꝭ. But as for the furst/ that their justice should be better than the justice of the scribes & pharisees/ peradventure he spoke specially to his appostels' themself/ that they should not be like the scribes & pharisees/ which commanded other many things/ & did nothing themself. ¶ That is in my mind quoth I well taken. and so doth holy saint Augustyne expone it. But sith ye think he said that word to his appostels specially rather than to all his hole flok/ whether think you that he said it only to them/ or else to all other also that should after come in their placis & succeed them in office? ¶ Nay for god q he to all the bishops he said it & prelatis & spiritual rulers of his church that ever shallbe in the church/ forbidding them to bind & lay upon other poor men's bakkꝭ importunable burdeyns/ to the bearing whereof themself will not once put forth a finger. ¶ Very well said q I. what think you than of that he said/ Do ye such things as they bid you do/ but do not as ye see them do? ¶ In that would our lord quoth he that all the people should do all that the prelates should command as far as was commanded in the law by god/ but he mente no further. And therefore he said that they sat upon the chair of Moses. & he willed that they should for the cause be obeyed. And therein he meant in such things only as they should command/ that were by god commanded the people in the law given unto Moses. And that crystyn men in likewise shall obey the bishops & prelates/ commanding only such things as himself hath commanded his people in his gospel & his own law. ¶ And in nothing else q I? what meanyth it than that our Lord in the parable of the Samarytane/ bearing the wounded man into the inn of his church/ and delivering him to the host after that himself had dressed his woundis with wine and oil/ & left with the host the ii groties of the two testamenties/ promised the host beside/ the what so ever the host would bestow upon him more/ he would when he came again recompense him therefore? And also in that place that we spoke of our saviour said that the scribes and pharisees beside the law of Moses on whose seat they sat/ did lay great fardellies and fast bound them on other men's bakkis/ to the bearing whereof they would not move a finger themself. And yet for all that he bade the people do what their prelates would bid them/ though the burden were heavy/ And let not to do it though they should see the bydders do clean the contrary. for which he added/ but as they do/ do not you. ¶ By our lady q he I like not this gloze. For it maketh all for the bo●dys/ by which the laws of the church bind us to more a do than the jews were almost with Moses' law. And I wot well Cryst said cum to me ye that be overcharged and I shall refresh you. And his appostels said/ that the bare law of Moses beside the ceremonies that were set to by the scribes & the pharisees/ were more than ever they were able to bear and fulfil. And therefore christ can to call us into a law of liberty. And that was in taking away the band of those weary ceremonial laws. And therefore saith our saviour of the law that he calleth us unto/ My yoke (saith he) is fit and easy/ & my burden but light. whereby it appeareth that he meant to take away the straight yoke & put on a more easy. And to take of the heavy burden & lay on a lighter. which he had not done if he would lad us with a farthel full of men's laws more than a cart can carry away. ¶ The laws of christ quoth I be made by himself & his holy spirit for the governance of his people/ and be not in hardness & difficulty of keeping any thing like to the laws of Moses. And thereof durst I for need make yourself judge. For if ye bethynk you well/ I ween if ye were at this age now to choose/ you would rather be bounden to many of the laws of Crysties church than to the cyrcumcysyon alone. Nor to as much ease as we ween that christ called us/ yet be not the law's that have ●●ne made by his church of half the pain nor half the difficulty that his own be/ which himself putteth in the gospel/ though we set aside the councils. It is I trow more hard not to swear at all than to forswear/ to forbear each angry word than not to ●ill/ continual wa●h & prayer then a few days appointed. Than what an anxyete & solicytude is there in the forbering of every ydyll word? what an hard threat after the worldly count for a small matter? Never was there almost so sore a word said unto the jews by Moses'/ as is to us by christ in that word alone where he sayeth that we shall of every idle word give account at the day of iugment. what say ye then by devorsies restrained & liberty of diverse wifes withdrawn/ where they had liberty to wed for their pleasure if they cast a fantasy to any that they took in the war. ¶ One of the ware is enough quoth he to make any one man war. ¶ Now that is merrily said q I/ but though one eye were enough for a fletcher/ yet is he for store content to keep twain/ and would though they were sometime sore both and should put him to some pain/ what ease also call you this that we be bounden to abide all sorrow and shameful death and all marterdum upon pain of perpetual damnation for the profession of our faith. Trow ye that these easy words of his easy yoke and light burden were not as well spoken to his apostles as to you. and yet what ease called he them to. Called he not them to watching/ fasting/ praying/ preaching/ walking/ hunger/ thirst/ cold/ and heat/ beating/ scorging/ prysonement/ painful & shameful death. The ease of his yoke standeth not in bodily ease/ nor the lightness of his burden standeth not in the slackness of any bodily pain (except we be so want on that where himself had not heaven without pain/ we look to come thither with play) but it standeth in the sweetness of hope/ whereby we feel in our pain a pleasant taste of h●uyne. This is the thing as holy saint Gregory Nazanzeno declareth that refresshyth men that arn ladid/ & maketh our yoke easy & our burden light. not any delivering from the laws of the church or from any good tenꝑall laws either/ in to a lewd liberty of slothful rest. For that were not a easy yoke/ but a pulling of the head out of the yoke. Nor it were not a light burden/ but all the burden discharged contrary to the words of saint paul and saint Peter both/ which as well understood the words of their master as these men do. And as a thing consonant & well agreeable therewith do command us obedience to our superiors & rulers one & other in thyngiss by god not foreboden all though they been hard & sore. ¶ But see for god's sake how we be run a great way further than I thought to go when I began/ & have left that we should go forth with all. It is no loss quoth he for there is a good thing well touched by the way. well q I let us go back again where we left. sith ye agree that christ spoke his words not to his appostels only for their own time/ but such things as he said to them he meant to all that should follow them/ And their of somewhat he spoke to them for the presties & bishops only/ As when he said/ vos estꝭ sal terre/ ye be the salt of the earth/ & somewhat to the hole flokke as when he said/ Mandatum nowm do vobis ut diligatis invicem sicut ego dilexi vos. I give you a new commandment that you love to gethere as I have loved you/ Tell me then I require you/ when christ said to saint Peter/ sathanas hath desired to sy●●e that as men sift corn/ but I have prayed for y● that thy faith shall not fail/ said he this to h● as a promise of the faith to be by gods help perpetually kept & preserved in saint peter only/ or else in the hole church/ that is to wete the hole congregation of christian people professing his name & his faith & abiding in the body of the same/ not being precided & cut of/ meaning that his faith should never so utterly fail ● his church/ but that it should hole & entire abide & remain therein? Marry q he this is good to be advised of. For though christ for that more part such things as he spoke to one spoke to all/ according to his own words/ q 'em dico omnibus dico/ that I say to one I say to all/ yet some things he said & meant particularly as he spoke it. As when he bad saint peter cum upon the water to him/ he bade not the remanant come so. And so may it peradventure be that this word was spoken and meant toward Peter alone. That willbe q I very hard to hold. For his faith after failed. But sith that upon his first confession of the right faith that christ was god's some/ our lord made him his universal vicar/ and under him head of his church/ And that for his successor he should be the first upon whom & whose farm confessed faith he would build his church/ & of any that was only man make him the first & chief head and ruler thereof/ therefore he showed him that his faith/ that is to weet the faith by him confessed/ should never fail in his church nor/ never did it/ not withstanding his denying. For yet stood still the light of faith in our lady/ of whom we read in the gospel contynewall assistance to her sweetest son without fleeing or flytting And in all other we find either ●●ring from him one time or other/ or else doubt of his resurrection after his death (his dear mother only except) For the signification and remembrance whereof the church yearly in the ●enebre lessons leaveth her candyll burning still when all the remnant that signifieth his appostels and disciples be one by one put out. And sith his faith in e●tect failed/ and yet the faith that he professed abode still in our lady/ the promise that god made was (as it seemeth) meant not to him/ but as head of the church. And therefore our lord added thereto/ And thou being one of these days converted/ confirm & strength thy brethren. In which by these words our saviour meant & promised that the faith should stand forever. So that the gates of hell should not prevail there against. Or else might ye say that these words spoken to saint peter/ fede my sheep/ was meant but for himself/ & no commandment to any successor of his or any bishop or prelate. Andby that mean might ye say also that these words of christs promise made unto his dyssyples that the holy ghost should instruct them of all things/ were only mente for themself in their own parson's. And not that ever he should instruct his church affere their days. And when he said wherso ever be. ii.or.iii.gathered to gether in my name there am I myself among them/ we shall say by this means that he meant but of his own disciples in his own time while he was here with them/ and not that he would be like wise present with such other congregations in his church after. And finally then were these words frustrate where he said. Lo I am with you all the days to the worlds end. if he shude mean it but with them that heard him speak it/ then should it appear that he had intended a church only of them and for their time/ And them from their death hither all were done. ¶ verily sir quoth he I can well agree that all such things was spoken by christ to make them sure that the faith should never fail in his church/ How be it if I durst doubt in that point one thing is there that somewhat styckethe in my mind. Doubt on quoth I between us twain & spare not nor let not to tell me what moveth you. Sir q he I think that god setteth no more by faith than he doth by charity. but as for charity & good wor●ꝭ with virtuous living shall cool & decay in the church as our saviour saith in the. xxiiii.chapyter of matthew. Because iniquity shall abound/ that charity of many men shall cool. And surely me thynkythe it is well near all gone all ready. God forbid quoth I. For all be it that it greatly day by day decayeth and moche people nought/ yet be there many good men about/ & shallbe always though they be few in comparison of the multitude. And yet is it not all one of other virtuous and of faith/ that is to wete of knowledge and believe of th'articles of our faith. I mean of such articles as we be of necessity bounden to believe. For albe it that the flock of christ shall never lake good & devout virtuous people/ yet shall both the best be sinners/ and also much more the multitude shall ever have the faith that I speak of/ than shall have the goodness of living. why so q he. For. ii.causeses q I one the malice of the people whereby they will not be so ready to live well as to believe well. for the people themself will better keep the faith than ot●er virtues/ sith it is a thing of l●s labour to know what they should believe/ and to believe it all so when they know it/ then it is to work well. For though the knowledge and believe bring many men to the labour of good works/ yet the world commonly and the fraylete of our flesh with thentycement of our ghostly emmies make us willingly and wittingly well knowing and believing the good/ yet to walk in the worse. as doth sometime the sick man that believing his physician/ and having had also right often good proof by his own experience to his pain before/ that sum certain meet or drink shall do him harm/ doth yet of an inportune appetite fall for his little pleasure to his great pain and hurt. Another cause is q I the goodness of god/ which how far so ever his people fall from the use of virtue/ shall not yet as himself hath promised suffer them to fall from the knowledge of virtue/ not only for the manifestation of his justice that their own conscience may condemn them in doing the things that themself know to be nought/ but also to th'intent they may still have among them a perpetual occasion of amendment. For if the faith were onis gone and the church of christ fallen in that error that they believed vice to be virtue/ and idolatry to be the right way of God's worship/ them had they no rule to guide them to better. And therefore while we be not in error of understanding & faith/ how so ever we fall or how often so ever we sin/ we see the way to turn again by grace to god mercy. But if faith were gone all were gone/ and then had god here no church at all.   

¶ The xix chapter.  
¶ Thauthor proveth that if the worship of images were idolatry than the church believing it to be lawful & pleasant to god/ were in a miss believe and in a deadly error. and than were the faith failed in the church whereof christ hath promysede the contrary as is proved in the chapter before.  
surely sir quoth he that god made not his church for a while but to endure till the Worlds end/ that is there no christian man but he will well agree. And sith his church can not stand with out faith which is the entry into Christendom. for as saint poule saith/ accedentem ad deum oportet credere/ who so will come to god must needs believe/ no man will deny but that faith is & allwey shallbe in his church. And that his church not in faith only and the knowledge of the truths necessary to be known for our soul health/ but also to the doing of good works & avoiding of evils/ is/ hath been and ever shallbe specially guided and governede by god and the secret inspiration of his holy spirit. well quoth I then if the church have faith it erreth not in believe. That is troth quoth he. It should err quoth I if it believed not all the truths that we be bound to believe. what else q he. what & we believed quoth I all that is true/ & over the sum other thing not only false but also displeasant to god/ did we not then err in our necessary believe? whereby mean you that quoth he. As thus quoth I/ if that one believed in all the three persons of the trinity/ the father the some and the holy ghost/ and therewith were persuaded that there were a fourth person beside/ equal & one god with them. He must quoth he nedis err in his necessary believe/ by which he is bounden to believe in the trinity. And that fellow believeth in a quaternyte that is quoth I the hole trinity and one more. But we be not only not bound quoth he to believe in any more/ but also bounden not to believe in any more. Very well quoth I. then erreth he as much & as far lacketh his right believe that believeth to much as he that believeth to little/ and he that believeth sum thing that he should not/ as he that believeth not sonthing that he should. what else quoth he and what then. Marry this quod I. if we believe that it were lawful & well done to pray to saints/ and to reverence their images/ and do honour to their relics and vysyt pylgrymagis/ And than where we do these things they were in deed not well done but were displeasant to god/ and by him reputed as a mynysshement and a withdrawing of the honour dew to himself/ & therefore afore his majesty reproved & odious and taken as idolatry/ were not this opinion a deadly pestilent error in us & a plain lak of right faith? yes for god q he. But ye grant q I that the church can not err in the right faith necessary to be bylevyde/ which is given and always kept in the church by god. Truth quod he. Than followeth it quoth I that the church in that it believeth saints to be prayed unto/ relyquys and images to be worshipped/ and pilgrimages to be visited and sought/ is not deceived nor doth not err/ but that the believe of the church is true therein. And thereupon also followeth that the wonderful works done above nature at such images and pilgrimages at holy relics by prayers made unto saints/ be not done by the devil to delude the church of christ therewith/ sith the thing that the church doth/ is well doen and not idolatry. But by the great honour done unto saints god him se●f the more highly honoured in that his servants have so much honour for his sake. And thereof followeth it that himself maketh the miracles in comprobation thereof. Also if it be true that ye have granted that god kepyth & ever shall keep in his church the right faith & rygh believe by the help of his own hand that hath planted it/ then can it not be that he shall suffer the devil to work wonders like unto his own miracles to bring his hole church in to a wrong faith. And then if those things be not done by the devil/ I trow ye will not then deny but they be done by god. And so is yet again our purpose double proved. first in that ye grant that god will not suffer his church to err in his right faith/ secondly which pursueth thereupon by that he hath by many a vysable miracle declared that this faith & manner of observance is very pleasant and acceptable unto him. which miracles sith they been proved to be done upon good ground and cause/ appear well to be doen by god and not by our ghostly enemy.   

The twenty chapter  
¶ The messenger alleggythe that the perpetual being and assistance of christ with his church to keep it out of all damnable errors/ is nothing else but his being with his church in holy scripture. whereof the authore declareth the contrary.  
HOw think you quoth I is there any thing in this matter amiss. ¶ I can not well tell q he what I might answer thereto. But yet me thinketh that I come to this point by some oversight in granting. ¶ well quoth I men say sometime when they would say or do a thing and cannot well come thereon but miss and over see themself in the assay/ it maketh no matter they say ye may begin again and mend it for it is neither mass nor matins. And all be it in this matter ye have nothing granted but that is in my mind as true as the matein● or the mass either/ yet if ye reckon yourself over swift in granting/ I give you leave to go back and call again what ye will. In good faith quoth he full hard were it in mine own mind otherwise to think/ but the god shall alway keep the right believe in his church. But yet sith we come to this conclusion by the granting thereof/ let us look once again thereupon. And what if m● would say as I hard once own say myself/ the god doth peradventure not keep alway faith in his church/ to give them warning with when they do well & when the contrary/ But sith he hath given the●m and left with them the scripture in which they may sufficiently see/ both what they should believe and what they should do/ he letteth them alone therewith without any other special cure of his upon their faith and by lief. For therein they may see all that then nedyth if they will look & labour therein. And if they will not/ the fault is their own sloth and folly. And who so be willing to mend and be better/ may always have light to see how/ by recourse to the reading of holy scripture/ which shall stand him in like stead as ye said before the god kept the faith for/ by his special means in his church. ¶ if this q I were thus/ whereof should Christ's promise serve? Ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus usque ad finem secult. I am with you all the days till th'end of the world? wherefore should he be here with his church/ if his being here should not keep his right faith and believe in his church? Marry q he these words well agreeth with all. for god is & shall be until the worlds end with his church in his holy scripture. As Abraham answered the rich man in hell saying they have Moses and the prophites/ not meaning that they had then all at that time present with them but only that they had their boyks. And so christ for asmuch as the scripture hath his faith comprehended therein according to his own words/ Scrutamini scripturas/ quia scripture sunt qtestimonium perhibent de me/ search you the scriptures for they bear witness of me. therefore he said/ Ego vobiscum sum usque ad finem seculi/ I am with you to th'end of the world/ because his holy scripture shall never fail as long as the world endureth. heaven and earth saith he shall pass away but my words shall never pass away. And therefore in his holy writing is he with us still/ and therein he keepeth and teacheth us his right faith if we list to look for it/ & else as I said our own fault and folly it is. ¶ if god quoth I be none otherwise with us but in holy scripture/ then be those words of christ/ I am with you to the worlds end/ somewhat strangely spoken/ and unlike the words of Abraham whereunto ye resemble them. For christ left never a book behind him of his own making as Moses did and the profytis. And in their books was he spokin of as he was in the gospel. wherefore if he had spoken and meant of scripture/ he would have said that they should have with them still his evangelists and writers of his gospels as Abraham said they have moyses and the prophetis/ which were the writers of the books that the jews had. Chryst also said/ I am with you till th'end of the world/ not I shallbe/ but am. which is the word apꝓp●yed to his godhead. And therefore that word am/ is the name by which our lord ●●●d ●s he told Moses'/ be named unto pharaoh/ as a name which from all creatures (sith they be all subject to time) clearly dyscernyth his godhead/ which is ever being and present without difference of time paste or to come. In which wise he was not in his holy scripture/ for that had beginning. And at those words spoken/ was not yet all written. For of the chief part which is the new testament/ there was yet at that time never on word written. And also we be not sure by any ꝓmis made that the scripture shall enoure to the worlds end/ albeit I think verily the substance shall. But yet as I say/ promise have we none thereof. For where our lord saith that his words shall not pass away/ nor one ●ote thereof be lost/ he spoke of his promises made in de●e as his faith and doctrine taught by mouth and inspiration/ Not that the writing should never be lost/ o● with sum parties be all ready lost/ more per adventure than we can tell of. And of that we have/ the books in sum part● corrupted with miss writing. And yet the substance of those words that he meant been known/ where sum part of the writing is unknown. He saith also that his father and he should send the holy ghost/ and also that he w●lde con himself. whereto all this if he meant no more but to leave the books behind them and go their way? christ is all so present am●ng us bodily in the holy sacrament/ And is he there present with us for nothing? The holy ghost taught many things/ I think unwritten/ and whereof sum part was never comprised in the scripture yet unto this day/ as the article which no good christian man will doubt ●f/ that our blessed lady was a perpetual virgin aswell after the birth of christ as afore. Hour saviour also s●y● unto his apostles/ that when they should be accused and brought in judgement/ they should not need to care for answer/ it should even then he put in their minds. And that he mente not only the remembrance of holy scripture/ which before the paynim iugis were but a cold and bare alleging/ but such words new given them by god inspired in their hertis so effectual/ and confermid with miracles/ that their adversaries though they were angry thereat/ yet should not be able to resist it. And thus with secret help and inspiration is christ with his church/ and willbe to the worlds end present and assistant. Not only spoken of in writing.   

¶ The xxi chapter  
¶ The author showeth that if it so were in deed as the messenger said/ that is to wit that christ continued with his church none other wise but only by the leaving of his holy scripture to them/ and that all the faith also were only therein/ than should it yet follow that as far as the necessity of our salvation requireth/ god giveth the church the right understanding thereof. And thereupon followeth ●arther that the church can not ere in the tight faith. whereupon is inferred e●te soon/ all that the messenger would have fled fro before. And ther●n also specially followeth/ that ●ll th● tex●ꝭ of holy scripture which herytyques allege against images or any point of the comen believe of christs catholic church/ can no thing serve their purpose.  
BUt now would I wit/ sith ye reckon him none other wise present than in holy scripture/ whether them doth he give his church the right understanding of holy scripture or not? ¶ what if he do not quoth he. ¶ Marry quoth I then yourself seeth well/ that they were as well without. And so should the scripture stand them in as good stead/ as a pair of spectacles should stand a blind freer. ¶ That is very truth quoth he. But therefore hath his wisdom and goodness provided it so to be written/ that it may be well understanden by the collation and consideration of one text with a nother. ¶ May it not also be q I that sum of them which do read it diligently/ and diligently compare and consider every text how it may stand with other may yet for all that mistake and mysunderstande it? ¶ yes quod he it may be so. For else had there not been so many heretics as there hath been. ¶ Very truth quod I. But now if all the faith be in holy scripture/ and no part thereof any where else/ but that it must be therein all to gether learned/ were it then sufficient to understand sum part aright and sum other part wrong in the necessary poyntis of our faith/ or must we as farforth as concernith the necessity thereof mysunderstand no part? ¶ we must q he mistake no part as far as necessarily concernith our faith. But we must have so the right understanding of all to gether/ that we conceive no damnable error ¶ well said quoth I. Then if we must we may. For if we may not we must not. For our lord byndyth no man to Turrian impossybylyte. we way q he. If we may q I/ them may we either by good hap fall in the right understanding/ or else by natural reason cum to it/ or else by supernatural grace be led into it. ¶ That is tr●th q he nedis must it be one of these way●. well q I we will not yet enserch which. But I would furst wit whether christ have a church in the world continually/ & so shall have to the worldis end/ or else hath one sometime & sometime none at all. As we might think that he had on● while he was here himself & peradventure a while after/ & haply none at all never sythyns/ nor shall not again we wots near when. Nay q he that can not be in no wise/ but that he must needs have his church continue still sum where. for else how could he be with them continually to the Worlds end in scripture or other wise/ if they with whom he promised to b● & continue to the Worlds end/ should not continually so long endure? Or how could those words of christ be true Lo I am with you all the days to the Worlds end/ if before the worldis end he were away sum days/ as he were in deed fro the church sum days/ if in some days he had no church. well quoth I yet would I wit one thing more. Can he have a church without faith. Nay quoth he that were impossible. Forsooth quoth I so were it. for his church is a congregation of people gathered into his faith And faith is the furst substancyall difference discerning christian men from heathen/ as reason is the difference dividing man from all the kinds of brute bells. Now than if his church be and ever shallbe continual without any times between/ in which there shall be none/ and without faith it may never be/ and no part of the faith is as ye say else where had but in holy scripture and all it must be had/ and also as we were agreed a ●ytyll while afore/ there must be non error adjoinid thereto/ & therefore as far as toucheth the necessity of faith no part of scripture may be miss taken/ but all must be understanden right/ and may be right understanden either by hap reason our help of grace/ it necessarily followeth that by one or other of these ways/ the church of christ hath always & never faylethe the right understanding of scripture/ as far as longethe for our necessity. ¶ That followeth in deed q he. ¶ well quoth I/ let pass for the while. what followeth further? And ●yth the church so hath/ let us first agree by which of these iii ways the church hath it. why there by hap/ reason/ or grace. ¶ By hap quoth he were a poor having. For so might it hap to have and hap to fail. ¶ Then quoth I sith it hath it ever/ it can not be by hap. what thī● you then of reason? ¶ As little quoth he as any man thinketh. For I take that for plain enemy to faith. ¶ ye take peradventure wrong quod I. But thereof shall we see further aftere. But now sith ye so think/ ye leave but the third way/ which is the help of grace. ¶ No surly quoth he. ¶ verily quoth I where reason may between divers texts stand in great doubt which way to leanly/ I think that god with his holy spirit leadeth his church into the consent of the truth/ As himself said/ that the holy ghost whom he would send/ should lead them in to all troth. And thus by the help off his grace as ye grant/ the right understanding of scripture is ever preserved in his church from all such mistaking/ whereof might follow any damnable error concerning the faith. And thereof doth their first follow/ that beside the scripture self there is an other present assistance & special cure of god/ perpetual with his church to keep it in the right faith/ that it err not by miss understanding of holy scripture/ contrary to th'opinion that ye purposed/ when ye said that christs being with his church was only the leaving of his holy scripture to us. And over this if god were no nother wise present than ye speak of/ yet sith it is proved that his church for all that/ ever hath the right understanding of scripture/ we be comen to the same point again that ye would so fain flit from. For if the scripture and nothing but the scripture doth contain all thing that we be bounden to believe and to do and to forbear/ and that god also therefore provideth for his church the right understanding thereof/ concerning every thing necessary for us that is conteynid in scripture/ them must there needs follow thereupon the thing that ye feared/ lest ye had wrong and unadvisedly granted/ that is to wit/ that god always keepeth the right faith in his church. And thereupon followeth further the remanant of all that is in question between us/ that the faith of the church in the worship that it believeth to be well given unto saints/ relics and images/ is not erroneous but right. And there upon followeth also that the miracles done at such places been none illusions of dampened spryties/ but the mighty hand of god/ to show his pleasure in the corroboration thereof/ and in the excitation of our devotion thereto. ¶ In deed quoth he we be cum bakk here with going forward/ as men walk in a maze. ¶ ye have not yet quoth I lost all that labour. For though ye have half a check in this point/ yet have ye if ye perceive it mated me in another point/ by one thing that is agreed between us now. ¶ what is that quoth he/ ¶ This quod I that I have agreed aswell as you that god hath given his church the right understanding of scripture in as farforth as longeth to the necessity of salvation. ¶ In what point quoth he hath that mated you? ¶ why quoth I see you not that? Nay then will I not tell you but if ye hire me/ or if I tell you yet shall ye not win the game thereby. For sith ye see it not yourself/ it is but a blind mate. ¶ Let me know it yet quoth he/ and I am aggrieved to take none advantage thereof. ¶ On that bargeyn be it quoth I. ¶ ye wot well quoth I that against the worshipping of images & praying to saints/ ye laid certain texts of scripture to prove it forboden & reputed of god for y●olatrye. For answer whereof when I layed the sentence that the church and holy doctor's/ there of give to those texts/ ye said they were but men's false gloss against gods true texts. And now sith ye grant and I also that the church can not mysunderstand the scripture to the hindrance of the right faith in things of necessity/ and that ye also knowledge this matter to be such/ that it must either be the right believe and acceptable service to god/ or else a wrong and erroneous opinion and plain idolatry/ it followeth of necessity that the church doth not miss vnderstan●e those texts that ye or any other can allege and bring forth for that purpose/ But that all these texts be so to be taken and understanden/ as they nothing make against the church/ but all against your own opinion in this matter. And this have ye suddenly answered yourself to all those texts out of hand/ with a gloze of your own as true as any text in the bible/ and which all the world will never avoid except they would make the scripture serve the church of nought/ or rather to their hindrance then furtherance in the faith. Fo●●● were it if it might be/ that god giveth them not the good understanding thereof/ but suffereth them to be deceived and deluded in errors/ by the miss taking of the letter. ¶ Marry quoth he this is a blind mate in deed. ¶ surely quoth I these ii things seem to me two as true points & as plain to a christen man as any petition of Euclidis geometry is to a reasonable man. For as true as it is that every hole thing is more than his own half/ as true is it in deed/ and to every christen man faith maketh it as certain/ first the christs church can not err in any such article as god upon pain of loss of heaviness will that we believe. And thereupon necessarily followeth/ that there is no text of scripture well understanden/ by which crystyn people arn commanded to do the thing which the church believeth that they may leefully leave undone/ nor any text whereby we be foreboden any thing/ which the church believeth that they may lawfully do.   

The xxii chapter  
¶ Because the messenger had in the beginning showed himself desirous and greedy upon the text of scripture with little force of the old father's glosses/ & with dysprays of philosophy and almost all the vii liberal sciences/ the author therefore incydently showeth what harm hath happened sometime fall to diverse of those young men whom he hath known to give their study to the scripture only/ with contempt of logic and other secular science/ and little regard of the old interpreters. wherefore the authore showeth that in the study of scripture/ the sure way is with virtue and prayer/ first to use the iuggement of natural reason/ whereunto secular literature helpeth much/ And secondly the commentꝭ of holy doctors/ And thirdly above all thing the articles of the catholic faith receyvyde and believed thorough the church of christ.  
ANd for because we speak oft scripture now/ & that the church in things needily requisite to salvation hath the right understanding of holy scripture/ wherein I perceive ye be studious of the text alone without great force of the old father's inte●pretaciōs or any other science/ of which ye reckon all. vii.save grammar almost to serve for nought/ I have of you so good opinion/ that I trust all your study shall torn you to good. But surely I have seen to sum folk so much harm to grow thereof/ that I never would advise any man else in the study of scripture to take that way. ¶ why so quoth he. ¶ For I have known q I right good wits that hath set all other learning aside/ partly for sloth refusing the labour and pain to be sustained in that learning/ partly for pride by which they could not endure the redargution that should sometime fall to their part in dispicions. which affections their inward secret favour toward them selfys covered and cloaked under the pretext of simplicity/ & good crysten devotion borne to the love of holy scripture alone. But in little while after the damnable spirit of pride the unware to themself lurked in their hearts/ hath begun to put out his horns and show himself. For then have they longed under the praise of holy scripture to set out to the show their own study. which because they would have 〈◊〉 the more to be set buy/ they have first fallen to the dysprays and derision of all other dyscyply●es. And because in speaking or preaching of such common thyngiss as all crysten men know/ they could not seem excellent/ nor make it appear and seem that in their study they had done any great mastery/ to show themself●therfore marvelous/ they set out paradoxis and strange oppynions against the comen faith of Crysties hole church. And because they have therein the old holy doctors against them/ they fall to the contempt and dispraise of them/ either preferring the●re own fond gloss against the old cunning and blessed fathers interpretations/ or else lean to some words of holy scripture that seem to say for them/ against many motextis that plainly make against them/ without receiving or ere giving to any reason or authority of any man quykke or deed/ or of the hole church of christ to the contrary. And thus once proudly persuaded a wrong way/ they take the bridle in the teeth and run forth like a head strong horse/ that all the world cannot pluck them bakke. But with sowing sedition/ setting forth of errors and heresies/ and spycing their preaching with rebuking of priesthood and prelacy for the people's pleasure/ they turn many a man to ruin and themself also. And ●hen the devil dysseyvyth them in their blind affections. ¶ They take for good zeal to the people their malicious envy/ And for a great virtue their ardent appetite to preach/ wherein they have so great pride for the people's praise/ that preach I ween they would though god would his own mouth command them the contrary. ¶ why should ye ween so quoth he/ or whereby can ye be sure that ye do not now mysconster their good mind? hard is it oftymys to judge an other man's deed that hath sum appearance of evil/ because the purpose and intent may make it good. And what apparel is it then where the deed appeareth good/ there to judge the mind and intent for nought/ which who can see but god? As the scripture saith/ Dominus autem intuetur cor. Only god beholdyth the heart. And therefore saith our savyouriuge not before the time. ¶ I judge not quoth I but upon open things and well apparent. For I speak but of those whose erroneous opinions in their preaching/ and their obstinate pride in the defence of their worldly worship well declareth their minds. And sum have I seen which when they have for their parylous preaching been by their prelates prohibited to preach/ have that not withstandyng proceeded on still. And for the maintenance of their disobedience/ have amended the matter with Turrian heresy/ boldly and stubbornly defending/ that sith they had cunning to preach/ they were by god bounden to preach/ And that no man nor no law that was made or could be made/ had any authority to forbid them. And this they thought suffycyencly provided by the words of thappostell/ Oportet magis obedire deo quam hominibus. As though these men were appostels now specially sent by god to preach heresies and sow sedition among christian men/ as the very appostels were in deed sent and commanded by god/ to preach his very faith to the jews. One of this sort of this new kind of preachers being demanded why that he used to say in his sermons about/ that now a days men preached not well the gospel/ answered that he thought so because he saw not the preachers persecuted/ nor no strife nor business arise upon their preaching. which things he said and wrote was the fruit of the gospel/ because christ said/ Non vem pacem mittere sed gladium. I am not come to send peace in to the world but the sword. was not this a worshipful understanding/ that because christ would make a division among infidels/ from the remanant of them to win some/ therefore these appostels would sow some cockle of dyssension among the christian people/ where by Chyste might lose some of them? For the fruit of strife among the hearers & parsecution of the preacher cannot lightly grow among christian men/ but by the preaching of some strange newelties/ and bringing up of some new fangell heresies to the infection of our old faith. ¶ One wist I that was for his partinacie in that oppynion/ that he would and might and was bound to preach any prohibition not withstanding/ when he was after divers bold and open defence thereof at last before folk honourable & few/ reasoned withal/ & not only the law showed him to the contrary of his opinion/ which law was made at a general council/ but also by plain authority of holy scripture proved that his opinion was erroneous/ he so perceived himself satisfied that he meekly knowledged his error/ & offered to abjure it & to submit himself to penance. But on the morrow when he came forth in open presence of the people/ and there saw many that had oft hard him preach/ of his secret pride he fell in such an open passion of shame/ that those should hear him go back with his word which had before had his sermons in great estimation/ that at the first sight of the people he revoked his revocation and said out aloud that he might well be hard/ that his opinion was true/ and that he was that day before deceived in that he had confessed it for false. And thus he held his own stubbornly without reason till the books were showed him again/ and himself red them before all the people/ so that he perceived the audience that stood about him to feel & understand his proud folly in the defence of his indefensyble error. And thereupon at the last yielded himself again. Such secret pride had our ghostly enemy conveyed in to the heart of him/ which I ensure you seemed in all his other outward manner as meek a simple soul as a man should have seen in a summer's day. And some of them let not with lies and pariury to defend themself/ and some to stand in defence of their errors or false denying of their own deed/ to their great apparel of the fire/ if their judges were not more merciful than their malice deserveth. And all this do●ne because (as themself doth at last confess) they think if they abjure/ they shall not after be suffered to preach again. Such a scabbed ych of vain glory catch they in their preaching/ that though all the world were the worse for it and their own life lie thereon/ yet would they long to be pulpited. And this I say hath comen of sum that have with contempt of all other learning given than to scripture alone. whose affections of pride and sloth hath not in the beginning been parceyvid to themself/ but have accounted their vices for devotion. ¶ would ye then quoth he condemn the manner of study by which a man hath so great affection to the scripture alone/ that he for the delight thereof feeleth little savour in any thing ●ls/ but that we should lose time in philosophy the mother of heresies & let scripture alone? ¶ Nay quoth I that mind am I not of. There was never thing written in this world that can in any wise be comparable with any part of holy scripture. And yet I think other liberal science a gift of god also/ and not to be cast away/ but worthy to wait and as handemaydies to give attendance upon divinity. And of divinity reek I the best part to be contained in holy scripture. And this I say for him that shall have time thereto/ and from youth intendeth to the church ward/ and to make himself with goddies help met● for th'office of a preacher. How beyt if ●ny man either hap to begin so late/ that he shall peradventure have no time thereto/ or else any man of youth to have that fervent appetite unto scripture that he cannot find in his heart to read any thing else (which affection who so hapeth to have given him/ is very fortunate if he with grace and meekness guide it well) then would I council him specially to study for the virtuous framing of his own affections/ and using great moderation and temperance in the preaching to other men. And in all thing to flee the desire of praise and show of cunning/ ever mistrusting his own inclinations/ and live in dread and fear of the dyvyllis subtle sleight & inventions. who though he lie in continual await upon every preacher to cach him into pride if he can/ yet his highest enterprise and proudyst triumph standyth in the bringing of a man to the most abuse of that thing/ that is of his own nature the best. And therefore great labour maketh he & great boast/ if he bring it about/ that a good wit may abuse his labour bestowed upon the ●●udy of holy scripture. ¶ For the sure avoiding whereof/ my poor advice were in the study thereof/ to have a special regard to the wrytingis & commenties of old holy fathers. And yet or he fall in hand with the tone or the other next grace & help of god to be gotten with abstynens & prayer & cleanness of living/ afore all thing were it necessary to come well & surely instructed in all such points & articles as the church believeth. which things once firmly had and fastly for undoubted truths presupposed/ then shall reason & they be two good rules to examine & expown ●ll doubtful textis by/ sith the reder shall be sure that no text is so to be understanden as it standeth against them both or against any point of the catholic ●ayth of Crysties church. And therefore if it seem to stand against any of them/ ●yther shall the light of natural reason with the collation of other texts/ help to find out the truth/ or else (which is the surest way) he shall perceive the truth in the commenties of the good holy doctors of old/ to whom god hath given the grace of understanding. Or finally if all that he can either find in other mennys works/ or invent by God's aid of his own study/ can not suffice to satisfy/ but that any text yet seem unto him contrary to any point of the churcs faith & belief/ let him then as saint Augustyne saith/ make himself very sure that there is some ●aut either in the translator/ or in the writer/ or now a days in the printer/ or finally that for some one let or other he understandeth it not a right. And so let him reverently knowledge his ignorance/ leanly & cleave to the faith of the church as to an undoubted troth/ leaving the text to be better perceived when it shall please our lord with his light to reveal & disclose it. And in this wise shall he take for a sure way/ by which he shallbe sure of one of two things/ that is to wit either to perceive & understand the scripture right/ or else at the lest wise never in such wise to take it wrong/ that ever may turn his soul to apparel.   

The xxiii chapter  
¶ The messenger obiectyth against the council of the author/ in that he would that the student of scripture should leanly to the commentors & unto natural reason/ which he calleth enemy to faith. And thereupon th'answer of th'author to those obiectyons'/ specially proving the reason is servant to faith & not enemy/ & must with faith & interpretation of scripture needs be concurraunt.  
SIr quod he I will not say nay but this way will do well. howbeit I fear me that we were likely to build up many errors/ if we square our timber & stonies by these iii rulies/ men's glosys/ reason/ and faith not that we find in scripture/ but that we bring with us to scripture. For first as for the commentors that y● speak of/ either their commenties tell us the same tale that the text doth/ or else another. If they tell me the same/ I believe them only because the text saith the same. & if they tell me another/ than believe I them not at all nor nought I should/ except I should believe men better than god. And for as for reason/ what greater enemy can ye find to faith than reason is/ which counterpledyth faith in every point. And would ye then send them twain forth to school to gether that can never agree to gether/ but be ready to fight to gether & either scratch out others eyes by the way? It seemeth also somewhat strange/ that when god hath left us in his holy scripture well and sufficiently his doctrine/ whereby he would we should h●ue warning of all such thing as he would we should believe and go or leave undone/ and hath left us the scripture for none other cause but for that it should stand unto us for the witness of his will declared us by writing/ that we should not say nay but we were warned/ & none other cause why the scripture should be given us but to tell us his pleasure & stir us to fulful it/ we shall now not shape our faith after the scripture/ but furst frame us a f●yth ourself/ and then shape the scripture of god thereby/ and make it agree thereto. This were in deed a good easy way for a slothful mason that were an evil work man to make him a squire and a ruler of lead/ that when he list not to take the labour to he we the stone to the squire he may bend the squire to the stone/ and so shall he yet bring them together at the lest ways. ¶ As for the old commentors quoth I they tell you the same tale that the text doth/ but they tell it you more plain as we shall more talk of after. But surly ye begyld me now in that ye set reason so short. for verily I would never have went that ye would in scripture like worse a wise man than an unreasonable reder. Nor I can not see why ye should reckon reason for an enemy to faith/ except ye reckon every man for your enemy that is your better & hurteth you not. Thus were one of your .v. wyties enemy to another. And our feeling should abhor our sight/ because we may see further by four mile than we may feel. How can reason (but if reason be unreasonable) have more disdain to here the troth of any point of faith/ then to see the proof of many things natural/ whereof reason can no more attain to the cause/ then it can in the article of the faith. But still for any power the reason hath to perceive the cause/ she shall judge it impossible after she prove it true/ but if she believe her eye better than her wit. ¶ when ye see the adamant stone draw iron to it/ it grieveth not reason to look thereon/ but reason hath a pleasure to behold the thing that passeth her power to perceive. For it is as plain against the rule of reason that an heavy body should move alone any other motion then downward/ or that any bodily thing should draw another without touching/ as is any article of the faith. Nor never was there yet cause by reason assigned that men may perceive for probable/ but only that it is a secret property of the stone/ which is as much to say as I wots near what. And yet as I say reason can byleue● that thing well enough/ and be not angry therewith nor strive against it. And yet all the rules that ever she learned tell her still that it may not be/ ● ye quoth he but a man's own eyen tell him that it may be. & that must nedys' content him. ¶ May a man then better trust his eyes quoth I than his wit? ¶ ye marry q he/ what may he better trust then his eyen? ¶ His eyes may q I be deceived & ween they se that they see not if reason give over his hold/ except ye think the juggler blow his galleys through the gobletties bottom/ or cut your gerdell afore your face in twenty pieces and make it hole again/ and put a knife into his eye and see never the worse/ And turn a plum into a doggis tord into a boy's mouth. ¶ Now happened it madly that even with this word came one of my folk and asked whether they should make ready for dinner. ¶ Abide quod I let us have better meat first. And therewith your friend and I began to laugh. ¶ well quoth I make none haste yet for a little while. And so went he his way half out of countenance/ weening that he had done or said sum what like a fool/ as he was one that was not very wise in deed and wont so to do. And then said I to your friend. Now ye see that reason is not so proud a dame as ye take her for. She seeth done in deed by nature that she cannot perceive how/ and is well contentyde therewith. She seeth a fond fellow deceive her sight and her wit therewith/ and taketh it well and merrily and is not angry that the iougeler will not teach every man his craft. And ween ye then that she will take it so hyely that god himself her master and maker should do what him list/ & than tell her what & tell her not how? I pray you quoth I that our lord was borne of a virgin how know you? ¶ Marry q he by scripture. ¶ How know you quoth I that ye should believe the scripture? ¶ Marry q he by faith. ¶ why q I what doth faith tell you therein? ¶ Faith quod he telleth me that holy scripture is things of troth written by the secret teaching of god. ¶ And whereby know you quoth I that ye should believe god? ¶ whereby q he? this is a strange question. Every m●n q he may well weet that. ¶ That is troth quod I. But is there any horse or any ass that wottyth that? ¶ None quod he that I wots of/ but if Dalams' ass any thing understood thereof. For he spoke like a good reasonable ass. ¶ If no br●te best can wit that quoth I/ & every man may/ what is the cause why that man may & other beasts may not? ¶ Marry quoth he for man hath reason & all they have none. ¶ A well them quoth I reason must he needs have then that shall perceive what he should believe. And so must reason not resy●● faith but walk with her/ & as her handmaid so wait upon her/ that as contrary as ye take her/ yet of a troth faith goth never without her. But likewise as if a maid be suffered to run on the bridle or be cup shoten or wax to proud/ she will then wax copious and chop logic with her master's/ & far sometime as she were frantic/ so if reason be suffered to ren out at riot & wax over high hearted & proud/ she will not fail to fall in rebellion toward her master's faith. But on the other side if she be well brought up & well guided and kept in good temper/ she shall never disobey faith being in her right mind. And therefore let reason be well guided/ for surely faith goth never without her.  
¶ Now in the study of scripture/ in devising upon the sentence/ in considering what ye read/ in pondering the purpose of divers commenties/ in comparing to gether divers textis that seem contrary and be not/ albeit I deny not but that grace & goddies especial help is the great thing therein/ yet useth he for an instrument man's reason thereto. God helpeth us to eat also/ but yet not without our mouth. Now as the hand is the more nimble by the use of sum featies/ & the legs and feet more swift and sure by the custum of going and running/ & the hole body the more wyeldy & lusty by some kind of exercise/ so is it no doubt but that reason is by study/ labour & exercise of Logyk/ Philosophy & other liberal artꝭ corroborate and quickened/ and the judgement both in them and also in orators/ laws & stories much riped. And albeit poetties been with many men taken but for painted words/ yet do they much help the judgement & make a man among other things well furnished of one special thing/ without which all learning is half lame. ¶ what is that q he? ¶ Marry q I a good mother wit. And therefore are in mine opinion these Lutherans in a mad mind/ that would now have all learning save scripture only clean cast aw●y. which things (if the time will serve) be as me thinketh to be taken and had/ & with reason brought as I said before into the service of divinity. And as holy saint Iherom saith/ The hebrews well despoil the Egipcyens/ when crysties learned men take out of the pagame writers the riches and learning & wisdom that god gave unto them/ & employ the same in the service of divinity about the profit of God's chosen children of Israel the church of christ/ which he hath of the hard stony paynims made the children of Abraham.   

The xxiiii chapter  
¶ The messenger make the objections against the author/ in that he counseled the student of scripture to bring th'articles of our faith with him for a special rule to construe the scripture by. And the author confyrmythe his counsel given in that behalf/ declaring that with out that rule/ men may soon fall in to great errors in the study of holy scripture.  
with this your friend held as he said himself somewhat content that reason was not so great an enemy to faith as she seemed. But yet he thought that he should have need rather to be well bridled/ than to bear much rule in the interpretation of scripture. But as for the other point that we should needs bring the faith with us all ready/ as a rule to learn the scripture by/ when we come to the scripture to learn the faith by/ that he thought in no wise convenient/ but a thing he said which like as if we would go make the cart to draw the horse. ¶ well quoth I we shall see anon whether the cart draw the horse or the horse the cart. Or whether we be yet haply so blind that we see not well whic● is the cart. which is the horse. ¶ first quoth I tell me how old would ye the one were ere he come to the study of scripture. ¶ By my faith he. I would have a christian man's child begin therein very young/ and therein continue all his life. ¶ In good faith quoth I that like I not amiss/ so that ye do not mean that ye would have him all his life learn nothing else: And yet that could I suffer to & allow right well in some. But yet if he did never in his life learn ought else/ how old think ye that he should be or he learned the articles of his belief in the bible? ¶ I can not readily tell quoth he/ for I have not seen it assayed. ¶ well quoth I sith we be not sure how long it would be in learning there/ were it not best then that for the while he were taught his creed before in his own mother tongue? ¶ I demen not y● q he/ that he should con his creed before/ because every christen man's child by the law should know his faith as soon as he could/ but I say he should not therewith take upon him to judge and examine holy scripture thereby. ¶ well quoth I let this christian child of ours alone for a while. And let us consider if there were a good old idolater that never had hard in all his life any thing of our belief or of other god than only the man in the moan/ whom he had watched and worshipped every frosty night. If this man might suddenly have the hole bible turned into his own tongue & read it over/ think ye that he should thereby learn all the articles of the faith? ¶ I think quod he that he might. ¶ Think ye so q I? I put case that he believed that all the book were lies? ¶ Marry q he that may he by the book himself learn the contrary. For the book in telling his tale affirm his tale & techyth it to be true. ¶ ye say very troth quoth I if it were all one to read a thing & learn a thing. But now might there be an other book made also with less wonders & fewer & thereby less unlykly/ and yet all untrue. And how should his mind give him than that this book telling so incredible wonders should be true? ¶ Nay quoth he that thing must he needs believe or else he can perceive nothing. ¶ well quoth I then is there one point of faith one great lesson to be learned without the book/ that must be learned sum where either by god or man/ or else the hole book will do us little service. And of whom we shall learn that/ we shall see hereafter. But now suppose that this old idolater were thoroughly persuaded in his mind that all the book were true/ think you than that he should find out therein all the articles of our faith? ¶ I think quod he that he should ¶ think ye so q I? beyt so than. But think ye that he shall find them out● all in a week? ¶ Nay quoth he that can he not do. ¶ well quoth I than sith he shall not at the lest wise find them out all on a day/ let us leave him a little while in seeking/ & we shall return again after to him and look what he shall have founden. And in the mean season we shall go look again upon our good little godson the boy pard that we christened right now & taught him his creed & set him to scripture. were it need that this child knew no more of his faith but his creed before he go to scripture? ¶ Me thinketh quod he that it were enough. ¶ Be it so than quod I  
¶ what if it should fortune him to find some text of scripture that should seem to him to be contrary to his creed. As for ensample if he happened upon the reading of these words/ Dij estis & filii excelsi omnes/ Goddys be ye all & the children of the high god. what if he would ween that sith in these words it is said all good men be the children of god/ our saviour christ were not goddies only begotten son/ but his son in such wise as god by the prophet calleth all good men? ¶ That could he not think q he. For he should in ● other parts of scripture find many placies that should show him well the contrary.  
¶ well said quoth I & very truth. But now in the mean time will ye that he shall believe as that text shall seem to sound to him against his creed till he have found another text in scripture that answereth it & seemyth to him to say more plainly the contrary? ¶ Nay quoth he not one hour. For he seeth/ that though other good men be called goddies children & God'S/ yet as they be not very goddies/ so be they not god very natural children by generation but by acceptation/ where as the creed sayeth of our saviour/ that he is gods only bygotten son/ that signifieth him to be his son by generation. ¶ That is quod I very true and well and reasonably considered/ and according unto the very right faith. But now consider that ye make him by and by fall to the squaring of his stones like that slothful mason that ye spoke of with his leaden rule. For now ye make him to examine the troth of this text of the psalm by the article of the faith/ which he brought with him/ and by a collection and discourse of reason. And so forthwith ye find both these rules necessary to the discussion of scripture. Of which twain ye would in the byginning admit neither nother. ¶ But now go ferther. what if he would upon this text/ homines & iumenta sal vabis deus/ God thou shalt save both men and beasts/ ween that beasts had immortal soulis as men have/ and that man and best should be both saved at last/ and so that no deadly sin should be punished with everlasting pain/ ●●ll he came to other texts that should prove well the contrary/ were the best or else were it better that bysyde his creed he had knowledge bifore of these articles of our faith/ that only our souls be in mortal and not beasts all so/ And that the pain of hell shallbe for sinners ever lasting/ And that he may thereby with reason joined thereto/ perceive that this text/ Thou shalt save both men and bestis/ is mente by some other kind of saving and preserving here in this world/ and not of bringing both to heaven? ¶ All this may he know quoth he by scripture self well I ●ough. ¶ That wots I well q I. And yet as plain as christ speaketh of hell in the gospel/ Origene for all y●/ which neither was a naughy man nor unlearned in scripture/ could not so clearly see it but that he said the contrary. And took the words of christ in a wrong sense. And would peradventure with one that would stick only upon the the words of scripture leaving the right sense thereof/ which god and his holy sprit hath taught his church/ bring him to a bay therein/ that he should be fain not our child only/ but also a well elderly man and in scripture well forward/ to take him in conclusion to the faith of christs church. ¶ Now if our child should read on the text of scripture without care of the comen 'tis/ and without enny further instruction of the points of our faith than be specified in our commē●rede/ made in the beginning as a brief remembrans by the apostles/ not setting out in so short a thing and clearly declaring all that we be bounden to believe/ albeit that he should well find in scripture many plain and open texts whereby the godhead of our saviour and his egalyte with his father may well & sufficiently be proved/ yet were he not unlykly by such other texts as seem to show him to be less than his father/ to fall into the sect and heresy of the Arryanies. And against those other texts proving his equal godhead/ to devise such false glosses as they did/ where as being before taught and confirmed by the faith of the church that our saviour is one god and one equal substance with his father/ shall well perceive and understand thereby/ that all the textis that seem to make him less/ be nothing to be understanden of his godhead but of his manhood only. As when we commonly speak of ourself and of our own nature/ and say we shall die & worms eat us up & turn all to dust/ we mean all this by our body only and nothing intend thereby to deny the immortality of our soul. we may not dine to day if I should reckon you the tenth part of such things as we must needs upon loss of heaven believe/ which neither our child with his only creed/ and much less our old idolater without creed should so find out by scripture/ but that they were both well likely to take the scripture to the wrong part/ except we take with us for a rule of interpretation the articles of our faith.   

¶ The xxv chapter  
¶ The author taking occasion upon certain words of the messenger/ declareth the pre-eminence/ necessite/ and profit of holy scripture/ showing nevertheless that many things have been taught by god without writing. And many great things so remain yet unwritten of trewthies necessary to be believed. And that the new law of Christ is the law so written in the heart/ that it shall never out of his church. And that the law there written by god/ is a right rule to interpret the words written in his holy/ scripture. which rule with reason and the old interpreters/ the author showeth to be the very sure way to wade with/ in the great stream of holy scripture.  
wHy than quoth he this were as much to say/ as that god had not well written his holy scripture/ if he have caused it to be written so/ as men may be so soon deceived therein/ that they were as likely and (as it seemeth by you) more likely to fall in to a false weigh than find out y●●rew. And better were it than that god had not given us the scripture at all/ than to give us a way to walk/ where in we were more likely to sink than save ourself. ¶ holy scripture quoth I/ both is such as I have said/ and yet nothing followeth it thereupon/ that god hath not caused it to be written well/ or that it had been better to have kept it from us. And albe it that in this point were a great occasion of a long tale/ in declaring and making open that god hath in that writing of holy scripture used so high wisdom and showed such a wonderful temperance/ that the very strange famylyare fashion the● of/ may to good men and wise well declare/ that as it was written by men/ so was it endited by god/ yet passing over t●e praise I will speak one word or twain for the answer of such blame as ye lay thereto. For it is almost a comen thing among men so to speak sometime as though they could amend the works of god. And few men be there I ween but they think that if they had been of God's council in the making of the world/ though they dare not be so bold to say that they could have made it better/ yet if they might have ruled it/ he should have made many things of another fashion. And for all that if he would yet call us all to council/ and change nothing till we were upon every thing all agreed/ the world were well likely till domys day to go forth on as it goth all ready/ saving that I wot near whether we would all agree to be winged. ¶ But as for the scripture shortly god hath so devised it/ that he hath given the world therein Turrian inestimable treasure as the case standeth. And yet we should happily nothing have needed thereof if the wounds of our own folly had not of our great necessity & goddies great goodness required it. For at our creation he gave but too preceptis or three by his own holy mouth to our first parents. And as for all that was for them to do bysyde/ the reason which he had planted in their souls gave them sufficient warning/ whereof the hole some stood in effect/ in the honour of god & God's friends/ with love of each to the other and to their offspring and lineage. But the preceptis that he gave by mouth was three. Twain commanding generation and eating/ the third forbeding the tree of knowledge. And that was for them continual/ where the other twain albe it they were thereto bound by the precept/ yet were not they and their posterity bounden thereto at all owers and all placis. But need was it in the beginning to give them kowlege thereof/ for as mich as they had no hunger to warn them of the tone/ nor sensual rebellious appetite to warn them of the t'other. But after that they were by god onis admonished thereof/ than did reason interpret the remnant/ whereby they wist that they should eat for conservation of their bodies/ and in gender for propagation of their kind. An● sith they perceived that these ii things was th'end & intent of those commaundementis/ they thereby consequently knew when it was time and place & occasion convenient to fulfil them. But when they had once at the subtle swasyon of the devil/ broken the third commandment in tasting the forbeden fruit/ being than expelled out of paradise/ than concerning their food and engendering/ not only reason oft shewid them what was honest & profitable/ but also sensuality what was bestely and pleasant/ which sensuality laboured so busily to cause man to set by delight above good and convenient/ that for the resistance thereof it than became to be the spiritual bysynesse & occupation of man/ so to preserve and bring up the body/ that it were not suffered to master the soul/ and so to rule & bridle sensuality/ that it were subject and obedient unto reason/ as god willed the woman to be subject and obediencer of man. wherein god would that we were learned rather to suffer our sensual parts plain and morn/ than to follow their own hurt & owers to. As it had been better for our father Adame & us all/ that he had suffered his wife our mother Eve/ to be sad and angry both & like a woman to weep to/ than to have eaten thapple for f●leshype to please her with all. Now did all the sin anon springe up for the more part upon the occasion of feeding and engendering. whereof sprung covytouse/ gluttony/ ●louth/ wroth/ & lechery. And many times pride & envy as one/ perceiving himself in these things in better condition or worse than another/ so began to conceive a setting by himself/ wt-tō tempt of other or envy & hatred to some other (saving the pride sometime also sprang out of the soul) & so liked itself that it envied the better as Cayme did Abel/ & for to be the more set by/ pride longed superfluously to get by cou●tyse & greediness many folkys lyuy●gys in his own hands/ to make other follies serve him & honour & hang upon him for necessity. And of all these myschie●fes was always sensuality ready to minister matter/ & by all the doors & windous of the body by feeling/ tasting/ smelling/ sight & hearing/ ceased never to send in occasions to the soul/ nor the devil never ceased for hyse part diligently to put forward. Against whom did reason resist/ with good counsel given to the soul/ & good spritꝭ appointed by god/ gave their help also/ and god assisted with his aid and grace where he found the person willing to work therewith. And in this manner continued man long time/ not with out revelation of christ once to cum. which faith delivered to the father/ went by mouth to the son/ And so from child to child herd and believed among them. And what so were god dies pleasure bysyde/ that nature and reason could not plainly show them/ god of his goodness by special message gave them undoubted knowledge as he did to No/ Loth and Abraham/ and diverse other/ whereof some be synnies written and comprised in scripture/ & of lykelyhed not all. For well probable is it that the patryarkies in diverse things that they did/ as in their diverse maryagys' and sum such other things as than were by them well done for the time/ were to them appointed specially by god for causes well knowene to himself and unknown to us/ and the things now forbidden us and therefore to us unleeful/ except God's like ordinance or dispensation should hereafter in general or particular be revealed to the contrary. ¶ But so was it after that the world waxing worse/ right good and virtuous linagys' declynid and decayed. And by the the lewd conversation of evil people fell by disorder in such a blindness/ that albe it some were there always that perceived well their duty/ yet were the comen people of the children of Israel by custom of sin so darked in their natural knowledge/ that they lacked in many things the right perceiving/ that reason (had it not been by evil custom corrupted) might verily well have showed them. For the remedy whereof god of his endless mercy/ by the law written with his own finger unto Moses in the tables of stone/ by the ten commandments/ put in remembrance again certain conclusions of the law of nature/ which their reason (overwhelmed with sensualytye) had than forgotten. And to th'end that they should keep his bihestꝭ the better/ he gave them a great heap of the laws and cerymoneys more/ to keep them in straight for straying abroad in riot. And wrought great wonders that they should well see that those things were his own deed/ whereby they might have the more dread to transgress them. And there in writing he gave a warning also of christ/ that god would once send them, springing of themselves/ to whom they should give hearing in stead of Moses. Of whom also as well before as after by patriarchs and prophets/ by figures & prophesies/ god ceaced not in such wise to foreshow his coming/ his cause/ his living/ his dying/ his resurrection and his holy acts/ that if pride & envy had not letted it/ the fyguries and prophysyes set & compared with his coming/ conversation & doyngys'/ might well have made all the jews to know him. And for the perceiving and good understanding of the law written/ he sent always sum good men/ whose Words/ well living/ and sometime also manifest miracles showed therewith/ never left them destitute of sufficient knowledge that longed to learn the law. Not to plete it and for glory to dispute itt/ but to teach ytt again meekly. And as man's frailty could suffer it/ specially to fulfil & keep it. ¶ yet after all this when the world was in a more decay & ruin of all virtue/ than can our saviour christ to redeem us with his death/ & leave us his new law/ whereof was long before prophesied by the prophet Hyeromy. Lo the days be coming saith our lord/ when I shall order & dispose to the house of Israel & the house of juda/ a new covenant or testament. I shall give my law in their minds. And I shall write it in their heart. & I willbe their lord & they shallbe my people. This law written in men's hearts/ was according to the words of the prophet fu●st brought by our saviour to the house of Israel & the house of juda to whom as himself saith he was specially sent. I am not sent saith our lord but unto the sheep that are perished of the house of Israel. And also he said it is not good to take the breed fro the board of the children & cast it to doggis. But yet not only the ready towardness of sum other caused than to be partakers of the breed/ but also soon after the stubbornness & obstinate infidelity of the jews/ caused saint paul & th'apostles to say unto their face/ The gospel of Crist was ordained by god to be furst preached unto you/ But sith that ye refuse it/ Lo we depart from you to the gentylies. And so was in their stead the church gathered of all the world abroad. All which not withstanding both were there at that time out of the jews converted & made many a good christian man/ & many of the same people turned unto christ sins/ & in conclusion the time shall come/ when the remnant that shallbe then left/ shall save themself by the same faith. This is called the law of Crystis faith/ the la of his holy gospel. I mean not only the words written in the books of his evangelisties/ but much more specially the substance of our faith it self/ which our lord said he would write in men's hearts/ not only because of the secret operation of god & his holy spirit/ in iustyfyeng the good crysten either by the working with man's good will/ to the perfection of faith in his soul/ or with the good intent of the offerers to the secret infusion of that virtue into the soul of an innocent infant/ but also for that he furst without writing revealed those heavenly mysteries by his blessed mouth thorough the ears of his apostles & disciples in to their holy hearts. And by them in like manner/ furst without writing by only words & preaching so spread it abroad in the world/ that his faith was by the mouths of his holy messengers put into men's ears/ and by his holy hand written in men's hearts or ever any word thereof almost was written in the book. And so was it convenient for the law of life/ rather to be written in the lively minds off men/ than in the deed skynnys of beasts. And I nothing doubt but all had ytt so been/ that never gospel had been written/ yet should the substance of this faith never have fallen out of christian folks hearts/ but the same spirit that plantyde it/ the same should have watered it/ the same should have kept it/ the same should have increased it. ¶ But so hath it liked our lord after his high wisdom to provide that some of his disciples have written many things of his holy life/ doctrine and faith/ and yet far from all/ which (as saint john saith) the world could not have comprehen hid. ¶ These books are tempered by the secret council of the holy ghost so plain and simple/ that every man may find in them that he may parceyue● And yet so high again and so hard that no man is there so cunning but he may find in them things far above his reach/ far to profound to pierce unto. Now were to the christian people the points of Crystis faith (with which points our lord would have them charged) known as I say and planted before/ and by reason thereof they far the better understood those bokis. And all though there might happily be some texts/ which were not yet of necessity for them to perceive/ yet by the poyntis of their faith were they warned/ that no text might there be construed contrary to their faith. ¶ And none evangelist was there nor none apostle/ that by writing ever sent the faith to any nation/ but if they were furst informed by word/ and that god had begun his church in the place. ¶ And for my part I would little doubt/ but that the evangelists and appostels both/ of many great and secret mysteries spoke much more openly & much more plainly by mouth among the people than ever they put it in writing/ for as much as their wrytyngys' were likely enough at that time/ to come into the hands of Pagans & paynims/ such hogs & doggis as were not meetly to have those precious pearls put upon their nose/ nor that holy food to be dashed in their teeth. For which cause saint Peter in his first sermon unto the jews/ abstained from the declaration of Crystis godhead & egalytee with his father/ as our saviour himself (when the jews that were unworthy to here it/ were offended with that he told them plainly that he was the son of god) withdrew the doctrine from them again/ & covered it with the verse of the prophet/ I have said ye be goddies & sons of the high god all/ as though he wol●e say/ what grieveth it you that name in me/ which name god by that prophet hath given to all good men. In which demeanour he denied not the troth that he had said of himself/ but he blinded their wilfully winking eyes/ in hiding & putting up again the jewel that he began to bring forth & show then the bright lustre whero● their bleared eyes might not endure to be●old. ¶ And what marvel though thapostle thus did in their speech afore infidels/ or writing that might come into pagans hands/ when it appeareth upon the epistles of saint Pou●e that among the christian flock where he taught them by mouth/ he told them not all the trothies at one tale/ Not only for that it were to long/ but also for that in the beginning they could not happily well abiden it. And therefore as christ said to his disciples/ I have more to say to you/ but ye be not able to bear it yet/ which once appeared what time that upon the disclosing of the great mystery of the holy sacrament the holy flesh of his body/ the hearers said who can abide this hard word/ & therewith went almost all their way/ so did saint Poule I say by the Corynthians not teach them all at once. And therefore he saith in his epistle to them/ I have given you hitherto but milk & not strong meet. And wisdom speak we (saith he) among folk that be par●yt. Nor I mean not this that there were any points of the substance of the faith which he showed to the clergy that he kept from the lay people/ or showed unto one man that he kept from another/ but y● to no man lightly he showed all at once. But because sum can from the jews and sum can of the gentylies/ therefore as they were so were they handled/ not only by grace but also by wisdom. & not only in the points of the faith/ but also in the rites ●nd ceremonies/ either of the church or of Moses' law. whereof some ceremonies were forthwith abolished/ some not by and by/ and some taken in to the church of christ and observed still. But in conclusion when they were meet therefore/ they were all taught/ all that god would have them bounden to believe. And than doubt I nothing/ but the many things that now be very dark in holy scripture/ were by th'apostles (to whom our lord opened their wits that they might understand scripture) so plainly declared/ that they were by the people well and clearly understanden. I say not all the hole scripture/ in which it may be that many a secret mystery lieth yet covered concerning the coming of antichrist/ & the day manner & fashion of the final judgement. which shall never be fully disclosed/ till the times appointed by God's high providence meet & convenient for them. And from time to time as it liketh his majesty to have things known or done in his church/ so is it no doubt but he temperyth his revelations & in such wise doth insumate & inspire them into the breasts of his christian people/ that by the secret instynct of the holy ghost/ they consent and agree to gether in one/ except heretykys that rebel and refuse to be obedient to god & his chirche who be thereby cut of from the lively tree of that vine/ and waxing withered branches/ be kept but for the fire furst here & after in hell/ except they repent & call for grace that may graft them into the stock again. But as it may be that many things be there not all at once reveled & understanden in the scripture/ but by sundry times & agys' more things and more by god unto his church disclosed/ and that as it shall like his high goodness & wisdom to dispense and dispose/ so in things to be done may fall in his church varyete mutation & change/ so am I very sure that the holy ghost that god sent into his church/ & christ himself that hath promised unto th'end of the world to persever and abide in his church/ shall never suffer his catholic church neither to agree to the making of any law that shallbe to god damnably dysplesaunt/ nor of any truth that god would were believed to determine or believe the contrary. For than had christ which is all truth/ broken his promise/ and (which were blasphemy and abominable to think) were waxen untrue. And therefore over this as it may be that as I said before some things in holy scripture be not yet fully perceived and understanden/ so am I very su●e that the church neither doth nor can do damnably construe, it wrong. which it should if they should construe it so as it should make an article of mysbelyefe and of a false erroneous faith. As if they should by mysseconstruccyon of the scripture bring up and believe/ that christ were one god and equal with his father and with the holy ghost/ if the troth were otherwise in deed. And therefore sith the church in which christ is assystente and his holy spirit/ cannot to gods displeasure and their damnation fall in any false belief in any such substantial point of the faith/ it must needs be therefore/ that Arrius and all other heretics be drowned in damnable errors. The contrary opinion of whose execrable heresies/ the church was in the beginning taught by the mouth of christ himself. And after of his blessed appostels/ which red & declared the scriptures among the people in their time/ showing them in what wise the words of holy scripture proved the troth of such articles of the faith as they taught them by mouth. And how such texts as seemed the contrary were not contrary in deed. And therewith declared them of those texts the right understanding. ¶ And albeit that our saviour showed & plainly proved that in the scripture was given good tokens & sufficient knowledge of him/ yet to th'intent we should well know that his own word & ordinance needeth none other authority but himself/ but is to be believed and obeyed be it written or not written/ sum things did he therefore bid to be done/ & some things also to be believed/ whereof we have in holy scripture no writing in the world. Saint Poule commandeth the people of Thessalonica in his epistle to keep the traditions that he t●ke them either by his writing or by his bare word. For the words that he said among them/ our lord had told them him for them. And therefore he writeth unto the Corynthyes/ that of the holy housel the sacrament of the altar he had showed them the matter & the manner by mouth/ as our lord had himself taught it to him. And therefore no doubt is there/ but that by th'apostles was the church more fully taught of the matter/ than ever was written in all the scripture. There was learned the manner and form of consecration. There was learned much of the mystical gesturies and ceremonies used in the mass. And if any man doubt thereof/ let him consider where should we else have the begynnig of the water put with the wine into the chalice. For well we wots that the scripture byddyth it not. And every wise man may well wit than when the gospel speaketh only of wy●e/ there durst no man in this world have been so bold to ●ut any thing else thereto. For when the gospel speaketh of wine only turned into his precious blood/ what man would adventure to make any mixture of water? And now is the church so well acertenid of God's pleasure therein without any scripture/ that they not only dare put in water/ but also dare not leave it out. And whereby knew the church this thing but by god & his holy appostels which taught in their time? And so went it forth from age to age/ continued in the church until this day/ begun by god in the beginning without any mention made in holy scripture. ¶ How beit Luther saith because it is not commanded by scripture/ we may cheese therefore whether we will do it or leave it. For this one point is the very fond foundation & ground of all his great heresies/ that a man is not bound to believe any thing but if it may be provided evidently by scripture. And thereupon goth he so farforth that no scripture can be evident to prove any ●hyng that he list to deny. For ●e will not agree it for evident be it never so plain. And he will call evident for him that text/ that is evident against him. And sumtime if it be to plain against him/ than will he call it no scripture/ as he playeth with the pistle of saint jamys. And because the old holy doctors be full & hole against him/ he setteth them all at nought. And with these worshipful wise ways he proclamyth him self a conqueror/ where besidis all the remnant/ wherein every child may see his proud frantic folly he is shamefully put to flight in the furst point/ that had at the furst face sum visage of ꝓbabylyte. How be it to say the truth/ he were a lewd lorell that would nothing do that his master would bid him/ nor no thing believe but that his master would tell him/ but if he take it him in writing/ as Luther playeth with christ. Of whose words or acts he will believe nothing/ except he find it in scripture/ and that plain & evident. Now must he by that means condemn the church of christ/ for that they sayntyfy not the saturday which was the sabbaothe day institute by god among the jews/ commanding the sabbat day to be kept holy. And albeit the matter of the precept is moral & the day legal so that it may be changed/ yet will there I ween no man think/ that ever the church would take upon them to change it without special ordinance of god. whereof we find no remembrance at all in holy scripture. By what scripture is evidently known that every man & woman hath power to minister the sacrament of baptism? Let it be showed/ either commandment/ council/ licence or example expressed in scripture. ¶ Many things are there like/ which as holy doctors agree/ were taught th'apostles by christ/ & the church by th'apostles/ and so comen down to our days by continual succession fro theirs. But I will let all other pass over & speak but of one. ¶ Every good christian man I doubt not believeth that our blessed Lady was a perpetual virgin aswell after the birth of christ as before. For it were a strange thing that she should after that blessed birth be less myndid to cleanness & purity/ and set less by her holy purpose & promise of chastity vowed and dedicate unto god/ then she did before. For surely who so consyderyth the words of the gospel in saint Luke/ shall well perceive that she had vowed virginity. For when the angel had said unto her/ Lo thou shalt conceive in thy womb & bring forth a child/ and thou shalt call his name jesus/ she answered him/ how may this be? for as for man I know none. which though it be spoken but for the time than present/ yet must it nedies signify that she never would know none after the manner of speaking. By which a nun might say/ as for man there medelyth none with me. sygnyfieng that never there shall. And in comen speech is that figure much in use. By which a woman saith of one whom she is determined never to marry/ we may well talk to gether but we wed not to gether/ meaning that they never shall wed to gether. And in such wise meant our lady when she said/ how may this be for I know no man/ meaning that she never would meddle with man. Or else had her answer no thing been to purpose. For the angel said not/ Lo thou art conceived. which if he had said/ she might well have marveled only for that she knew no man all ready. But when he said thou shalt conceive/ this could be no marvel unto her for that she knew no man all ready. And therefore sith she marveled how it might be that ever she should conceive & have a child/ it must needs be that her answer meant that she never would meddle with man. And therefore she marveled because he said it should be & she knew not how it could be/ but that ways by which she was at full point with herself that it should never be. so that then he showed her how it should come about by the holy ghost coming into her/ & the power of god on high shadoing her. & then she assented & said/ Lo here the handmaid of god/ be it done to me after thy word as thou tellyst me. And thus appeareth it evidently that she had than a full determined purpose of virginity. And that as it seemeth such as she thought not lawful to change.. For else when the angel did the message/ she might have inclined thereto though she had before been in another mind. Now when she had then so full & fast a purpose of perpetual virginity bifore the birth of her blessed child/ which came among his other heavenly doctrine to call and exhort the world from all pleasure of the flesh to the purytye & cleanness of the body and soul/ and from the desire of carnal generation to a ghostly regeneration in grace/ more● were it then wonder if she shul● have them more regard of fleshly delight/ or cure of worldly procreation than ever she had before her celestial conception of her maker made man in her blessed womb? Or what man could think it that ever god would suffer any earthly man after/ to be conceived in that holy closet taken up and consecrate so specially to god? This reverent article of our ladies perpetual virginity/ the church of christ being taught the truth by christ/ perpetually hath believed sins the time of christ. And yet is there no word thereof in Crysties gospel written/ but rather divers texts so sownning to the contrary/ that by the wrong understanging of them/ the heretic Eluydyus took the occasion of his herysy/ by which he would that our lady after the birth of christ had other children by joseph. How can we than say that we could without the learning of the faith before/ find out all the points in the scripture/ when there be sum that all christendom believe/ and believe themself bounden to believe/ whereof the scripture giveth no plain doctrine but rather seemeth to say the contrary. ¶ But as I began to say/ the holy appostels being taught by their great master christ/ did reach unto the church as well the articles of the faith/ as the understanding of such texts of scripture as was meet and convenient for the matter. whereby it is not unlykly that the gospel of saint john/ & the epistles of saint Poule/ were than better understanden among the comen people/ than they be peradventure now with some that take themself for great clerks. And as th'apostles at that time taught the people/ so did ever some of them that hard them tech forth and leave their doctrine and traditions to other that can after. By reason whereof not only came the rites and sacraments and the articles of our faith from hand to hand/ from christ & his appostels unto our days/ but also the great part of the right understanding of holy scripture by good and godly writers of sundry times. By whose good & wholesome doctrine set forth by their virtue with God's good inspiration grace and h●lp of the holy ghost/ we have also the knowledge & perceiving what was the faith of Crysties church in every time sins. And thereby perceive we that these hereti●ys be not only barkers against the faith that now is/ but also that hath been ever sins christ died. ¶ And therefore is holy scripture as I said the highest & the best learning that any man can have/ if one take the right way in the learning. ¶ It is (as a good holy saint saith) so marvelously tempered/ that a mouse may wade therein/ and an elephant be drowned therein. For there is no man so low/ but if he will seek his way with the staff of his faith in his hand/ and hold that fast and search the way therewith/ and have the old holy fathers also for his gidis/ going on with a good purpose & a lowly heart/ using reason and refusing no good learning/ with calling of god for wisdom grace & help that he may well keep his way and follow his good gidies/ than shall he never fall in apparel/ but well and surely wade thorough and cum to such end of his journey as himself would well wish. But surely if he be as long as Longius/ & have an high heart and trust upon his one wit (as he doth look he never so lowly/ that setteth all the old holy fathers at nought) that fellow shall not fail to synk over the eris and drown. And of all wretches warst shall he walk/ that forcing little of the faith of Christis church/ cometh to the scripture of god to look and try therein whither the church by leave a right or not. For either doubteth he whither christ teach his church true/ or else whither christ teacheth it at all or not. And than he doutith whither Christ in his words did say true/ when he said he would be with his church till the end of the world. And surely the thing that made Arrius Pelagius/ Faustus/ Manicheus/ Donatus/ Eluidius & all the table of the old heretics to drown themself in those damnable herysyes'/ was nothing but high pride of their learning in scripture/ wherein they followed there own wits and left the comen faith of the catholic church/ preferring their own gay glosses bifore the right catholic faith of all Christis church/ which can never err in any substantial point that god would have us bound to believe. And therefore to end where we began/ who so will not unto the study of scripture take the poyntis of the catholic faith as a rule of interpretation/ but of dyffydens and mistrust study to seek in scripture whither the faith of the church be true or not/ he can not fail to fall in worse errors & far more jeopardous than any man can do by philosophy/ whereof the reasons and arguments in matters of our faith have nothing the like authority.   

¶ The xxvi chapter  
¶ The messenger saying that him seemed he should not believe the church if he saw the church say one thing and holy scripture another thing because the scripture is the word of god/ the author she with that the faith of the church is the word of god as well as the scripture/ and therefore as well to be believed. And that the faith & the scripture well vnde●stāden be never contrary. And farther she with that upon all douties rising upon holy scripture concerning any necessary article of the faith/ he that cannot upon all that he can here in the matter on both the sides perceive the better & truer part/ hath a sure & undoubtable refuge provided him by the goodness of god to bring him out of all ꝑplexyte/ in that god hath commanded him in all such douties to believe his church.  
TRuly sir q he me thinketh it is well said that ye have said. And in good faith to say the truth I see not what I should answer it withal. And yet when I look back again upon holy scripture/ and consider that it is goddies own words which I wot well ye will grant/ I find it hard in mine har● to believe all the men in the hole world/ if they would say any thing whereof I should see that the hol● scripture saith the contrary/ sith it is reason that I believe god alone far better than than all. ¶ In that quoth I ye say very truth. But now I put case that god would tell you ii things whether of them would ye believe best. ¶ Nether nother q he/ but I would believe them both firmly & both a like ¶. what if neither nother quoth I were likely to be true but seemed both twain impossible. ¶ That should quod he make little force to me. For that onis known that god telleth them/ seemed they never so far unlikely nor never so far impossible/ I neither should nor could have any doubt but that they were both twain true. ¶ That is well said q I. But now and it so were that those ii thyngiss seemed the tone to the other clean contrary/ what would ye than think & which would ye than believe? ¶ yet could I not quoth he doubt any thing but that they were very true both/ but I would verily think that I did not well under stand the tone of them. ¶ what would ye than do quoth I if he bade you believe them both. ¶ Marry q he than would I pray him tell me first how he understandeth them both. For though I believe that they be both true in that sense and purpose that he taketh his own words/ and may in that manner understanden/ well stand and agree to gether/ yet can I not believe them both in that sense and understanding wherein they repugn and be directly contrary each to other. ¶ That is quod I so well said that in my mind no man can amend it. ¶ But now would I wit quoth I whither that the faith of the church be the word of god/ & by god spoken to the church or not. ¶ yes q he god speaketh to his church in the scripture. And is nothing goddess words. q I but scripture? The words that god spoke to Moses were they not goddies words all till they were written? And the words of christ to his apostles were they not his words till they were written? ¶ yes than quoth he. But now sith he hath perfected and finished the corpus of holy scripture/ all thing that he would christen people should believe/ and all that he would the church would do/ and all that he would the church should eschew/ all this hath he left them his mind sufficiently in holy scripture. ¶ And none other wise quoth I bysyde? I had wentt we had been at another point/ in that ye see the sabbat day changed in to sunday without any word of scripture/ giving any commandment of the change in the new testement/ from the commandment given for the saturday in the old. And also for the point that we spoke of/ touching the perpetual virginity of our lady whereof is no word written in scripture. But sith I perceive that the great affection and reverence that ye bear to the scripture of god/ not without great cause but without any measure/ maketh you in the case that ye take all authority and credence from every word of god spoken beside the scripture/ I would ask you therefore this question. If god in holy scripture tell you ii things that seem the tone contrary to the to●here/ as for ensample if he tell you in one place that he is less than his father/ and in a no there place that he and his father be all one/ which of these will you believe?  
¶ Marry quoth he both twain. for they may stand to gether well enough. For he was less as man/ & was all one & equal as god. ¶ Very troth it is quoth I that ye say. But now if ye had been born in the days of Arrius the heretic/ he would not have received nor hold himself content with this answer/ but he would have agreed you the furst part and put you further to prove the second part. And unto that t●●te he would have made you a gloze that his father & he were one not in substance but in will. And that gloze he would have fortified & made somewhat seemly with another word of christ in which he prayed his father saying/ as thou & and I be both one so make thou that they & we may be made one/ meaning by his christian peole which shall never be one with him in substance. So that for the inequality of Chryst by reason of his manhed/ ye must agree with him. But for unite of godhead/ he will not agree with him but put you always to prove it. ¶ well quoth he and thoghe he so did yet if I were provydid there fore/ therebe textis enough that plainly prove it. ¶ That is quod I very truth But yet is there none but he shall always set you another against it/ and a gloze as fast for yours as ye shall have an answer for his/ in such wise as he may abuse a right wise and well learned man as he did in his own days & many days after many a thousand. Than if it so were that in that dispicions ye could not make your audience to discern the truth/ nor peradventure persuade them to believe the truth/ because the false part might hap to have to the minds of many a more face of truth/ as it had at that time to many that than were of that sect/ what way would ye wind out? ¶ Marry quoth he I would believe well myself the truth & go to god/ and let them that would believe the false part go to the devil/ ¶ ye should q I have take therein a good sure way. But now if ye had been in that time (albe it ye be now fast and sure in the truth) ye might have happened while the matter was in questyone/ & many great clerks & well scryptured men/ and some seeming right holy/ set on the wrong side/ ye might have happened I say so to have been moved wi●h the reasons on both the sides/ that ye should not have wist on which part to determine your believe. And what would ye than have done? ¶ Quod he ye put me now to a pynch/ and I shall answer you as I have hard say that doctor Mayo sometime almoigner to king henry the sevynth answered once the king at his table. It happened that there was fallen in communication the story of joseph how his masters Putiphers' wife a great man with the king of Egypt/ would have pullid him to bed/ & he fled away. Now master Mayo (q the kings grace) ye be a tall strong man on the tone side/ and a cunning doctor on the other side/ what would ye have done if ye had been not joseph but in josephes' stead? By my truth sir q he and it like your grace/ I can not tell you what I would have done but I can tell you well what I should have done.  
By my truth quoth the king that was very well answered. And sith that answer served him well there/ I shall make the same serve me here. For surely if I had been in Arrius days in the point that ye speak of/ what I would have done that wots I near. But what I should have done that can I well tell you and surely trust I would have done so too. ¶ what is that quoth 1 ¶ Marry I would have believed the best quod he. ¶ The best quoth I? that were best in deed if ye wist which it were. But the case is put/ that the reasons grounded upon scripture seemed unto you in such wise each to impugn and answer other/ that ye stood in such a doubt/ that ye could in no wy●e discern whythere side said best. ¶ By god quoth he I had forgotten that. well than were it best quod he/ and so would I have done I think/ kneel me down and make my special prayer to god that it might please his goodness in so great a apparel not to leave me ꝑplexed/ but vouchsafe to incline mine assent unto that side that he knew were true/ and would I should believe to be true. And then would I boldly believe the tone which god should have put in my mind. Had not this been the best way? ¶ If it were not quoth I the best/ it might peradventure serve for a second. ¶ A second quoth he than ye take it for nought. ¶ Nay quoth I/ theridamas be two secondies after two manner countyngys'. One next unto the worst/ another next unto the best. And your way is surely far fro the worst. But yet dare I not assent that it were the best till I understand it better. And therefore I pray you tell me this. If after your special prayers made/ ye wrote the tone part in one paper and the other part in another and laid them both on the ground/ and then set up Turrian staff between them both/ would ye be then indifferent to take the tone side or the t'other after/ as it should hap your staff to fall? ¶ why not quoth he. Or else put it upon two lots/ and than at adventure draw the tone & take it. For when I have done as much as mine own wit will serve/ and have hard thereto all that I can of other men/ and yet by neither can perceive the better opinion/ what should I do or what could I do further than pray for grace to guide my choice/ and so at adventure bol●dly take the tone and hold it fast/ doubting nothing but god assisted my choice/ if I have a ferm faith in his promise by which he promiseth that if we as● we shall have asking as saint jamys sayeth without any doubt. And why should not I in such perplexed case after help called for of god/ take the tone part at adventure by lot as did th'apostles in the choosing of a new/ to fulfil the place of the traitor judas? ¶ Lottys quod I be well lawful in the choice of such two things as be both so good that we be likely to choose well enough why there so ever we take. But now if ye were in the case that I have hard my father merrily say every man is at the choice of his wife/ that ye should put your hand in to a blind bag full of snakies & else to gether vii snakis for one eel/ ye would I ween reckon it a perilous choice to take up one at adventure though ye had made your special prayer to speed well. Nor ye ought not in such case to adventure it upon your prayer and trust of god without necessity. ¶ That is peradventure troth quoth he. But in our case there is necessity. For there were none other way to avoid the ꝑplexitie/ but even take the tone by prayer and ferm trust in god/ which never deceived them that trust in him. ¶ If there were quoth I none other way somewhat were it than that ye say. But now consider your case again. And when it so were that ye could not upon that ye hard the Arryanies and the catholic part argue to gether/ perceive whither part were the better/ and therefore of those two tallies told you by god in many textis of holy scripture/ some seeming plainly to say that christ was not equal with his father/ some seeming as plainly to say the contrary/ ye could in no wise find any reason/ whereby ye could find yourself moved to take the tone part for more probable than the t'other. I put case than that god would himself say to you I have showed the truth of this matter to such a man/ and how my scripture is to be understanden concerning the same. Go thy ways therefore to him. And that thing that he shall tell the that thing believe thou. would ye say nay good lord I will ask no man but thyself/ and therefore tell me thine own mouth/ or else I will take the tone part at all adventures/ and think that thou would have it so/ or else would ye think that god were your good lord & had done much for you in that it lykyde him so graciously for your surety to bring you out of such a great perplexity/ whereby ye should for your own mind have remained in an insoluble doubt in a matter of the faith/ wherein it is damnable to dwell in doubt or (which y●t much worse were) have declined peradventure in to an invincible error? ¶ verily q he great cause should I have had lightly to thank god. ¶ ye would not than quoth I first make your prayer and than with good hope that grace shall guide your fortune take the tone part at adventure by lot/ but ye would in your prayer thank god for that provision. And then would ye get you to that man as fast as ye could. ¶ Very truth quoth he. ¶ Than if that man should tell you that Arryus and his company were herytyques all and took textis of scripture wrong ye would believe him? ¶ ye verily quoth he that would 1 ¶ I put case quoth I that ye had not doubted before b●t had been in yourself at clear point that the Arryans' opinion were the troth/ ●et ye would against Arrius and all his/ and against your own mind also leanly unto his word/ whom god had bidden you belief. ¶ what else quoth he? ¶ what if ye asked him q I whythere god have sufficiently showed that point in scripture/ so that it may by the words of holy writ well and evidently be proved/ and that he told you ye/ And that thereupon he would bring in all the texts that ye had well in remembrance all ready/ & that ye laid against them all that you could lay for the contrary/ so farforth that when each of you had laid all your texts and all your glosses that either of you both could bring forth till ye both confessed that neither of ye both could any further thing find therein/ he saying still that his way were the truth and that he had by sc●ypture well proved it unto you/ and yourself on the other side for all that ever ye had hard him say/ perceiving in your own mind none other but that ye had by scripture better proved the other part/ which would ye now believe/ that way that as far●e as ye see god saith himself in holy scripture/ or else that man whom god sent you to & bade you believe? ¶ Nay verily q he I would believe him. ¶ well said quod I. But whether would ye only believe him that the trowth of the matter were against the Arryans'/ or else would you believe him ferther in that he said he had so proved it unto you by scripture. ¶ I would q he believe him therein also. For sith god so had commanded me/ & had showed me that he had himself instructed that man in what sense the scripture were to be understanden/ I could none otherwise think/ but that were true/ and although it appeared to mine own reason the contrary. ¶ Very well said q I. Now if god had said unto you that ye should believe that man concerning the matter self/ & of scripture had nothing spoken/ than would ye have believed him yet in the matter? would ye not all though he should have told you that he understood no scripture at all? ¶ That is true quoth he. ¶ Now if he should then have told you that the Arryanies were herytyques in that point and their opinion erroneous & false/ ye would have bylevede him? ¶ what else q he. ¶ what if he had told you there with quod I that he wist near whither it might be well proved by scripture or not? ¶ yet would I quoth he nevertheless believe to be true the matter self that he had told me. ¶ what would you than think quoth I of those texts that ye reckon before well & plainly to prove the contrary? ¶ I would q he than reckon that they were mente some other ways than I could understand. For I could not doubt but being truly understanden/ they could never witness against the trouh. ¶ In good faith quoth I ye say marvelously well. Do ye not quoth I take it for all one whither god bid you do a thing his own mouth or bid you by holy scripture? ¶ yes quod he saving/ that I take the biding by scripture for the more sure. For there wots I well god speaketh & I can not be illuded. ¶ Now quoth I this man that god biddeth you go to & in all thing believe him will it make ●ny change in our matter whither it be man or woman? ¶ No change at all quoth he. what if it were a certain known company of men and women to gether quoth I would that make any difference. ¶ Never a whit quod he. ¶ Than quoth I in case it apere unto you as I suppose it doth to you and to every christian man else/ that in all poyntis of faith both in things to be believed above nature/ and in things also that are of necessity to be known & believed/ which may be perceived by reason given us with nature/ god giveth us in commandment that we shall believe his church/ than are ye full answered. For than have ye the man that ye must needs resort unto for your final answer and solusyon of all points and dowties/ in any wise concerning the salvation of your soul. of which points no man can deny/ but one of the most especial point is to take in holy scripture always the right sense. Or else if we cannot attain the right understanding/ yet than at the lest wise to be sure that we shall avoid and eschew all such miss taking as might bring us in to any damnable error.   

¶ The xxvii chapter  
¶ Thauthor proveth that god hath commanded us in all thing necessary to salvation to give firm credence and full obedience unto his church. And a cause why god will have us bounden to believe.  
THat is troth quoth he if this may appear. But where shall it appear that god commandeth us in all such things to believe the church? For first me thynkyth that were a very strange manner of commanding. For of the church be all we that should as ye say be by god commanded to believe the church/ And all we to gether make the hole church. And what reason were it than to command us to believe the church. which were no more in effect/ but to bid us all believe us all/ or each of us to believe other. And then if we fell at divers oppynions/ why should the tone part more believe the t'other/ than be believed of the t'other/ sith both the parties be of the church and make the church among them? saving that alway that part seemeth to believe which best and most clearly can allege the scripture for their opinion. For the words of god must break the strife. He is only to believed & his only son of whom himself commanded. Ipsum audite/ here him said the father at the time of his baptism. And therefore the man that ye speak of whom god sendeth me to/ and whom he biddeth me here and believe/ is our saviour Cryst only/ and not any congregation of men. whose words if we believe before the words of god/ and in the s●ede of the scripture of god put our trust and con●ydence in the doctrine & ordinance of the church/ it were happily to be feared/ lest we fall in the reproof that is touched in the gospel where is said/ in vain wurshup they me with the doctrine of men/ and where our saviour also reproveth the scribes & the pharisees saying unto them/ wherefore do you break & transgress the commandment of god for your traditions. ¶ I trust q I yet at last we shall agree. But much a do me thinketh it is to come to it. But sith we must as ye say and truth it is/ here our saviour christ and believe him/ is it enough to hear him and believe him/ or be we besides that also bounden to obey him? ¶ To obey him also q he. For else were he better unheard. ¶ well said quod I. But whither are we bound to hear him and obey him in some things or in all things? ¶ In all things quoth he without exception that he commandeth us to do. ¶ Than if Chryst quoth I bid us believe and obey his church/ be we not bound so to do. ¶ yes quod he? & Than may we quod ● no more doubt to be true what so the chy●ch biddeth us believe/ than the thing that our saviour himself biddeth us believe/ if he bid us here his church as his father bade us here him. ¶ That is troth q he if he so do/ but me thinketh it were a strange bidding as I said to bid each of us of believe other. ¶ It seme●● not q I so strange a thing to saint Poule. For he marvelous effectually beseecheth christian people to agree to gether all in one mind/ and in the faith to tell one tale/ suffering no sectis or schisms among them. which agreement & consent can never be where no man giveth credence to other. But among Christian people it w●ll son be/ if every man give credence to the church. ¶ But yet q he sith all be of the church of diverse parties/ which shall believe which? ¶ ye take that quod I for a great doubt & a thing very ꝑplex/ which seemeth me very plain. For either fi●st the church hath the truth & believe all one way till some one or some few begin that change/ and than though all be yet of the church till some by their obstynacie be gone out or put out/ yet is it no ●owt but if I will believe the church I must believe them that still believe that way which all the hole believed before/ or else if there were any thing that was peradventure such/ that in the church somtym was doubted & reputed for unreveled & unknown/ if after that the holy chryche fall in one consent upon the tone side/ either by comen determination at a general counsel or by a perfit perswasyon & belief so received through christendom that the christen people think it a damnable error to believe the contrary/ than if any would after that take the contrary way were it one or more/ were it few or many/ were they learned or unlearned/ were they lay people or of the clergy/ yet can I nothing doubt which ꝑ●e to believe if I will believe the church. ¶ that is trouht q he. But ye ꝓue me not yet that god hath boden me believe the church. ¶ ye somewhat interrupted me quoth I with your other subtilty/ by which ye would it should seem an absurdytye to bid us believe the church/ For as much as thereby ye said it should seem that we were commanded nothing else but each to believe other/ and than in diverse opinions taken we could not wit which part should believe which. whereof sith I have showed you the contrary and removed the block out of the way for stumbling/ we shall I think soon see that other point/ that christ commandeth us to believe his church. For as his father said of him self here him/ so said he of his church when he sent it abroad to be spread forth. For when he had gathered his church of his apostles & his disciples and thereupon set them forth to preach/ said he not unto them/ he that heareth you heareth me? Did he not also command that who so would not here the church should be reputed and taken as paynims and publycanies? ¶ That was q he where men would not amend their living. ¶ was it not q I general where a man would not aminde any damnable fault? ¶ yes q he. ¶ Is misbelief quoth I none such? ¶ yes marry q he. ¶ Than is quoth I the church his judge upon his believe/ to show him whither it be true or false. ¶ So it seemeth quoth he. ¶ Hath his living quoth I no thing a do with faith? ¶ How mean you that quoth he? ¶ Thus quoth I as if Luther late a frere and having now wedded a nun/ were commanded to amend his lewd living and put away that harlot whom he abuseth in continual incest and sacrilege under the name of a wife/ and he would say that he did well enough/ and that their vows could not bind them/ were he not bound to believe the church and obey thereto as well concerning his belief as his living? ¶ yes verily quoth he. ¶ Than appeareth it quoth I that we be by christ commanded to here/ believe & obey that church as well in matters of faith as of manners. which thing well appeareth also by that our lord would that who so were dysobedyent should be taken as a paynim or a publican. Of which ii the tone offended in mys●yleue the t'other in lewd living. & thus it appeareth that not only christ is the man that ye be sent unto & commanded be god to believe & obey/ but also the church is the person whom ye be by christ commanded to here and believe and obey. And therefore if ye will in faith or living or a voiding of all damnable error that ye might fall in by miss understanding of scripture take a sure & unfallible way/ ye must in all these things her●/ believe and obey the church/ which is as I say the person whom christ sendeth you to for the sure solution of all such douties/ as to the man in whose mouth he speaketh himself and the holy spirit of his father in heuin. ¶ And surely this is much to be marked. For it is the perpetual order which our lord hath continued in the governance of good men from the bygynnyg/ the like as our nature first fell by pride to the disobedience of god with inordynate desire of knowledge like unto god/ so hath god ever kept man in humility/ straining him with the knowledge & confession of his ignorance/ and binding him to that obedience of believe of certain things whereof his own wit would verily ween that contrary. & therefore are we bound not only to believe against our own reason that pointis that god showeth us in scripture/ but also that god teacheth his church without scripture & against our own mind also/ to give diligent hearing/ firm credence/ and faithful obedience to that church of christ/ concerning the sense & understanding of holy scripture. Not dowting but sith he hath commanded his sheep to be fed/ he hath provided for them wholesome meet and true doctrine. And that he hath therefore so far inspired the old holy doctors of his church with the light of his grace for our instruc●yon/ that the doctrine wherein they have agreed and by many agys' consented/ is that very true faith and right way to heaven/ being put in their minds by the holy hand of him/ qui facit vnanimes in domo/ that maketh the church of christ all of one mind.   

The xxviii chapter  
¶ The messenger eft sons objected against this/ that we should believe the church in any thing where we find the words of scripture seeming plainly to say the contrary/ or believe the old doctors interpretations in any necessary article/ where they seem to us to say contrary to the text. showing that we may perceive the scripture aswell as they might. & the answer of the author ꝓuing the authority of the old interpters & the infallible authority of the church in that god teacheth it every truth requisite to the necessity of man's salvation. which he proveth by a deducey on ꝑtely depending upon natural reason.  
IT seemeth me quoth he that all this goth well that we should believe the church as christ/ as long as they say as christ saith/ for some thinketh meant our lord. ¶ But now if they tell me talis of their own whereof christ never spoke word nor mention made thereof in holy scripture I may than say with the prophet Hieremie/ non mitteban prophetas et ipsi currebant. Non loquebar ad eds et ipsi prophetabant/ those prophetis (quod our lord) ran forth of their own head and I sent them not/ And prophesied of their own heads when I spoke nothing to them. And than how much may I more say so/ if they say me a thing whereof christ or holy scripture saith the contrary/ shall I believe the church above chyrste? were that a good humility to be obedient more to men than to god? More ought I me thinketh to believe god above speaking in his holy scripture himself/ than all the old fathers if they make a gloze against the text. Nor they do not themself for their opinions say & write/ that they have them by inspiration/ or by revelation/ or by miracle. But by wisdom/ study/ diligence/ and collation of one text with another. By all which means men may now perceive the sentence of scripture as well as they might then. And if ye will peradventure say that grace holp the●m which I will well agree/ than will I say again that God's grace is not so far worn out yet/ but that it may as well help us as it holp them/ and so may we be for the right understanding of scripture equal with them/ and peradventure one ace above them. whereby when we ꝓceyve that they went wrong and other after them/ shall we than call it humility so to captive & subdue our understanding/ whereby god hath happily given us light to perceive their errors/ that without thank given him therefore we shall so set his gift at nought/ that we shall believe them before himself/ & tell him that himself bad so●● therefore me think where the old doctors or the holy church telleth me the tale that god doth/ there he biddeth me believe them. But where god sayeth one thing in scripture and they tell me another/ it thinketh me that I should in no wise believe them. ¶ well quoth I than in somewhat ye say ye will believe the church but not in all. In any thing bysyde scripture ye will not/ nor in the interpretation of scripture ye will not. And so where ye said that ye believe the church in somewhat/ in very deed ye believe the church in right nought. For wherein will ye believe it if ye believe it not in the interpretation of scripture? For as touching the text ye believe the scripture self and not the church ¶ Me thinketh q he the text is good enough and plain enough needing no gloze if it be well considered & every part compared with other. ¶ Hard it were quoth I to find any thing so plain that it should need no gloze at all. ¶ In faith quoth he they make a glo●e to some texts/ that be as plain as it is that twice two make four. ¶ why quoth I needeth that no gloze at all? ¶ I trow so quoth he. Or else the devil is on it/ ¶ I wysse quoth I/ and yet though ye will believe one that would tell you that twice two ganders made always four geese/ yet ye would be advised ere ye believed him that would tell you that twice two geese made always four ganders. For therein might ye be deceived. And him would ye not believe at all that would tell you that twice two geese would always make four horse. ¶ Tut quoth he this is a merry matter. They must be all that twice twain always of one kind. But gese and horse be of diverse. ¶ well quoth I than every man that is neither goose nor horsese●th well that there is one gloze yet. But now quoth I the geese and the ganders be both of one kind and yet twice two geese make not always four ganders. ¶ A sweet matter quod he/ ye wot what I mean well enough. ¶ I think I do quod I● but I think if ye bring it forth it will make a nother gloze to your text as plain as your text is/ and ye will in all holy scripture have no gloze at all. And yet will ye have colla●yon made of one text with another/ and show how they may be agreed to gether as though all that were no gloze. ¶ ye quoth he but would you that we should believe the church if it se●t a gloze that will in no wise agree with the text/ but that it appeareth plainly that the text well considered sayeth clean the contrary? ¶ To whom doth that apere quod I so plainly/ when it appeareth one to you/ and to the hole church another? ¶ yet if I see it so quoth he/ though holy doctors & all the hole church would tell me the contrary/ me thynkythe I were no more bounden to believe them all that the scripture menith as they take it/ than if they would all tell me that a thing were white which I see myself is black. ¶ Of late quoth I ye would believe the church in sum thing. And now not only ye would believe it in nothing/ but also where as god would the church should be your judge/ ye would now be judge over the church. And ye will by your wit be judge whither the church in the understanding of holy scripture that god hath written to his church/ do judge a right or err. As for your white & black/ never shall it be that ye shall see the thing black that all other shall see white. But ye may be sure that if all other see it white & ye take it for black/ your eyen be sore deceived. For the church will not I think agree to call it other than it seemeth to them. And much marvel were it y● ye should in holy scripture see better than the old holy doctors and Crysties hole church. ¶ But first quoth I ye must consider that ye and I do not talk of one doctor or twain/ but of the consent and comen agreement of the old holy fathers. Nor that we speak not of the doctrine of one man or two in the church/ but of of the comen consent of the church. we speak not also of any sentence taken in any text of holy scripture/ whereby rysyth no doubt or question of any necessary article of our faith or rule of our living/ For in other buy matters may there be taken of one text ten senses peradventure and all good enough without warantyse of the best/ But we speak of such two divers and contrary senses taken/ as if the tone be true the t'other must needs be false/ and that as I say concerning some necessary point of our faith or rule of our living/ which is also depending upon faith and reducyble thereto. As if one would boldly break his vow for that he thought that no man were bound to keep any. such points I say let us consider they be that we speak of. And this remembered between us/ than will we somewhat see what your saying doth prove. I shall not much need quoth I to stick with you in dysputing by what meanis the scripture is understanden/ sith ye be agreed with nature and diligence the grace of god must needs go/ or else no diligence or help of nature can prevail. Nor I will nothing deny you/ but that god may and will also/ give his grace now to us as he gave of old to his holy doctor's/ if there be as mich towardness and no more let or impediment in ourself than was in them. I will also grant you that we may now by the same menis by which they might than/ understand the scripture as well as they did than/ and I will not mic● stick with you for one a●e better. And were it not for the synnies that we sink in/ we might percase understand it better by quater tredeuce/ having their labours therein & our own therewith. But sith I am so gentle to grant you so many things/ I trust ye will grant me this one/ that if any such point of our faith as god would have men bounden to believe/ they did understand the scripture one way and we another/ being the tone to the t'other so clean contrary that if the tone were true the other must nedis be false/ ye will than graunt● I say that either they err or we. ¶ That must needs be quoth he. ¶ ye will also grant quod I that in such points as we speak of/ the error were damnable. For we speak of those points only/ to the belief whereof god will have us bounden. ¶ I grant quod he. For damnable were it in such case to believe wrong. And wrong should they or we believe if they or we believed a wrong article/ because they or we thought that the scripture affirmed it. And as damnable were it and yet mich more/ if we believed a thing whereof we believed that the scripture affirm the contrary. For then believed we that the scripture were false. ¶ This is q I very well said. about for the more plainness let us put one example or twain. And what point rather than the ar●ycle touching the equality in godhead of our saviour christ with his ●ather? For if the contrary beleft were true/ than were this always damnable & plain idolatry. ¶ Very troth quoth he. ¶ May not quoth I the t'other example be the matter that we have in hand/ concerning saints relics/ imagis & pylgrymagis. which things if it be (as ye say many reckon it) idolatry/ than is it yet worse to do therein as we do/ than if our byleefe were wrong in the tother point. And that as much worse/ as the saints or the images either/ be worse than the holy manhood of Christ. ¶ That is q he very true. ¶ Than q I let the furst point alone because therein we be all agreed/ & speak of the second if th'old fathers took the scriptures one way & we the contrary. Though it might be that we were able to understand the scriptures as well as they/ yet if they so understood them that they thought this kind of worship not for bidden but commanded & pleasant to god/ & we new men on the other side thought it utterly forbidden & holden for idolatry/ the tone part did not in deed understand the scripture right/ but were in a damnable error. ¶ That will no man deny q he. ¶ I doubt not now q I but that yourself seeth very well how many things I might here lay for them to prove you that they erred not so. first their wits as much as our new men's/ their diligence as great/ their erudition 〈◊〉 their study as faruent/ their devotion hotter/ their number far greater/ their time continued longer by many agys' parsevering/ the contrary opinions in few & those always soon faded/ they taken always for catholic/ the contrary part for heretics. Here might I lay you the holiness of their life & the plenty of their grace well appearing thereby. And that our lord therefore opened their eyen & suffered & caused them to see the troth. And albeit he used therein none open miracle nor sensible revelation/ whereof as ye say they none allege or pretend for the proof of their opinions in their interpretations of holy scripture/ yet used he the secret supernatural mean/ by which his grace assistant with good men the labour therefore/ by motions insensible to themself/ inclynyth their assent unto the true side/ & that thus the old holy fathers did in the point that we speak of & in such other/ perceive the right sense of holy scripture so farforth at the lest wise/ as they well knew that it was not contrary to their belief. And here might I lay you also that if it had been otherwise & that they had therein damnably been deceived/ than living & dying in damnable error they could not have been saints/ as god god hath showed them to be by many a thousand miracle both in their lives & after their deaths. with this might I also lay & very well conclude/ that sith those holy doctors and the church/ be (as by their books plainly appeareth) all of one faith in this point & such other/ that theridamas by well appeareth that the church is in the truth/ & is not in the understanding of the scripture that speak of the matter any thing deceived/ but they clearly deceived that do understand those textis of holy scripture to the contrary. These thī●gys as I say and yet many other more might I lay. But sith ye did yourself put the church & them both in one case/ & so they be in deed/ I will rather ꝓue you the truth of them by the truth of the church/ than the truth of the church by the truth of them. & so seemeth me good reason. For surely sith they were but members of his church/ god had his special cure upon them most especial for the profit of his church/ by whose hole corpse he more settyth than by any member thereof/ saint/ apostle/ evangelist/ or other. And therefore must I yet ask you again whether the church may have any damnable error in the faith by mistaking of scripture or otherwise. ¶ That is q he somewhat hard to tell. ¶ Now quoth I somewhat I marvel that ye remember not that yourself hath agreed all ready/ that these words of Christ spoken unto Peter I have prayed that thy faith shall never fail/ were not only meant by the faith in Peter his own person/ but also by the faith of the church. For to him was it spoken as head of the church? ¶ yes I remember q he right well that I agreed it. But I remember also that notwithstanding mine agreement ye were content that we should enserch again and again the matter otherwise bysyde/ wherein mine agreement should not bind me. ¶ Lo quod I that had I forgotten again But let it than alone for the while and tell me this. Died not christ intend to gather a floke & congregation of peole that should serve god and be his special people? ¶ yes quod he that is very truth/ For so sayeth plain scripture of Christ in sundry placies. As where the father of heaven sayeth unto christ in the psalm/ Postula a me & dabo tibi gen●es hereditatem tuam/ ask of me and I shall give the paynim people for thine inheritance. & many other placies. And else undoubtedly his hole coming had been in manner frustrate & in vain. ¶ That people quoth I which should be Turrian enherytaunce ●yd he intend should endure for his own days only while he lived her●/ or else that y● should go forth & continue long after. ¶ Nay quoth he that shall continue while the world lasteth here till domys day/ & after in heaven eternally. ¶ Shall this people q I have among them the knowledge & understanding what he would they should do to please god with all? ¶ ye q he. ¶ whither shall they quoth I have this knowledge for a while in the beginning & than lose it/ or shall they have it still as long as they continue? ¶ Here he bygan a little to stagger. why quoth I can ye call th● his people any longer if they lose the knowledge how to serve him and please him? if they for sloth to do their duty as slake servants sometime do/ yet may they mend & do better another tyme. But if they lose the knowledge of their duty/ t●ā wots they near which way to mend/ As he that knoweth fornication for sin/ may fall by frayletye to fornication. But sith he knoweth it for nought/ though he sinnid more in the doing than if he had not known the prohibition/ yet doth the knowledge give him warning and occasion of repentance and amendment/ which must needs lack if he had lost the knowledge. ¶ Upon this he granted that it must needs be that this people must needs have alway the knowledge how to serve and please our lord/ or else they ceaced to be his people. ¶ Is not this people q I called the church? ¶ yes quod he. ¶ Than the chyr●h quoth I always hath & ●lway shall by your reason have the knowledge & understanding/ how god may be served and pleased. ¶ Troth q he ¶ Is quod I that knowledge fully had without the knowledge of such things as god bindeth us to believe? Nay q he. what if we knew them in such wise q I as we could rehearse them on our finger's ends & yet believed them not to be true/ would this knowledge serve? ¶ In no wise q he. for if ye believed the to be false/ though ye so knew them that ye could rehearse them by row/ ye could take no warning by them to please & serve god with them/ which is the caus● wherefore the church should of necessyt● know them. This is q I v●ry well said. than sith ye grant that the church shall ever endure/ & that it could not adure without the knowledge of sich things as may please god/ nor those things can be all known if knowledge laked of those things that god bindeth us to believe/ nor the knowledge of them any thing serve to the knowledge & warning given us of God's pleasure but if we not only can tell them but also believe them/ which belief ye grant is called faith/ of this it consequently followeth that the church always hath and all ways shall have the knowledge and belief of such things as god will have it bound to believe. ¶ That is troth q he because god hath left holy scripture to the church/ and therein is all/ and the church believeth that to be true. and therefore therein & thereby hath the church all that warning and learning of god's pleasure that ye speak of/ without which it can not endure. ¶ what if god quoth I had left the scripture to the church lokked up in a close chest/ and that no man should look therein/ would that have served? ¶ Nay ꝑde quoth he. ¶ what if he had left it open & written in such wise that no man could read it? ¶ That were all one quoth he. ¶ what if every man quoth I could read it and no man understand it? ¶ As little would it serve quoth he as the t'other. ¶ Than quoth I sith it serveth the church to learn God's pleasure therein/ and that can it not as ye grant yourself but if the church understand it/ it followeth of this that the church understandeth it. And thus every way for the faith and knowledge of God's pleasure if it be as ye say all known by the scripture & no part otherwise/ yet always to this point ye bring it in the end/ that the church hath the sure knowledge thereof. And than if that be so/ ye shall not as ye lately said ye should/ in any diverse textis of scripture seeming to make a dowtouse article of our faith/ and to bring in questyone what we be bounden to believe/ after ye have red in scripture all that can be red/ and herd on both sides all that can be said/ than take which part seemeth to yourself most probable. Nor if ye stand still for all that in a doubt/ than after your bitter prayers made to god for his grace & guide in the choice/ go take you the tone part at adventure and cleave thereto/ as though ye were sure by your confidence in god/ that his grace had inclined your assent to the surer side. But sith he hath showed you plainly by reason that he hath given his church in all such things knowledge of the truth/ ye will take the sure way and put yourself out of all perplexity/ if in the point it self & the scriptures that touch it/ ye take for the truth that way that the church tecythe you therein/ how so ever the matter seem bysyde unto yourself or to any man else.   

The xxix chapter  
¶ The author proveth by scripture that god instructethe the church of christ/ in every truth necessarily requesyte for our salvation.  
TRuly q he ye wind it well about. But yet ye made as though ye would have showed that god had in scripture told me/ that he had & ever would tell his church the truth in all such matters. And now ye bring it to the point/ not the holy scripture tellythe me the tale but man's reason. And surely as I showed you before/ I dare not well trust reason in matters of faith & of holy scripture. ¶ I began quoth I to prove it you by scripture/ and ye than put me out in the beginning. How be it this reason hath scripture for his foundation and ground. And though it sum what build farther thereon/ yet is it not reason always to be mistrusted where faith standeth not against it/ nor god sayeth not the contrary. Except reason be so far out of credence with you that ye will not now believe him if he tell you that twice twain make four. I ween ye will far by reason as one did once by a ●alse shrew. he swore that he would not for. xx.li. hear him say his creed. For he knew him for such a liar that he thought he should never believe his creed after/ if he heard it once of his mouth. How be it quoth I let us yet see whither god himself in scripture tell you the same tale or no. God telleth you in scripture that he would be with his church to the end of the world. I think ye doubt not thereof/ but those words he spoke to the hole church that than was and that ever shallbe from th'apostles days continued till the end of the world. ¶ That in good faith quoth he must needs be so. Than were this in good faith enough quoth I for our purpose/ sith no man dowte●h wherefore he will be with his church/ except we should think that he would be therwythe for nothing. wherefore should he be with it but to keep it & preserve it with thassistance of his gracious present from spiritual mischief specially/ and of all other specially from infidelity and from idolatry? which was the special thing from which he called his church out of the gentyllies. which else as for moral ver●ews & polytycall if they had not lacked the right cause and end of referring their acts to god/ were many of them not far under many of us. Let us go ferther. Doth he not in the xiiii xv. and xvi chapter of saint Iohn again and again repeat/ that after his going he will come again to them/ And saith he will not leave them orphanies as fatherless children/ but will come to them again himself? Let us add now thereunto the words bifore rehearsed/ that he willbe with them till th● worlds end/ and it appeareth plain that he mente all this by his hole church that should be to the worlds end. ¶ when he said unto them I call you frendis/ for all that I have hard of my father I have made knowene to you/ he spoke as to his perpetual church and not to thapostles alone/ but if he said to them alone these words also I command that ye love each other/ so that none should love each other after but only they. Now lest the things that he taught them should by the church after be forgotten/ which was more to be doubted than of themself that hard it/ he said unto them also/ These things quoth he have I spoken to you abiding here with you. But the comforter which is the holy ghost whom me father shall send in my name/ he shall tech you all thing/ and he shall put you in mind and remembrance of all thing that I shall have said unto you. So that here ye see that he shall again always tech the church of new/ the old lessons of Chryst. And he said also to them/ that this comforter this holy ghost the spirit of troth/ should be sent to abide with them for ever/ which can not be mente but of the hole church. For the holy ghost was not sent hither into the earth here to dwell with the appostels for ever/ for they dwelled not so long here. Now if the sprite of truth shall dwell in the church for ever/ how can the church err in perceiving of the truth/ in such things I mean as god will bind them to know or shallbe necessary for them to know? For only of such things meant our lord/ when he said that the holy ghost shall teach them all thing. For as saint Poule sayeth/ the manifestation and showing of the spirit/ is to the utility & profit. This holy spirit also was not promised by our saviour christ/ that he should only tell his church again his words/ but he said ferther/ I have quod he besides all this many things to say to you/ but ye be not able to bear them now. But when he shall come that is the spirit of troth/ he shall lead you in to all truth. Lo our lord said not that the holy ghost should write unto his church all troth/ but that he should lead them by secret inspiration and inclination of their hearts in to all troth/ in which must needs be conceived both information and right believe of every necessary article/ and of the right and true sense of holy scripture/ as far as shall be requisite to conserve the church from any damnable error. ¶ Now when the holy ghost shall by gods promise/ be for this purpose abiding in the church for ever/ and christ himself hath also said that he will not leave his church as orphanies/ but will come himself/ & be with it unto the end of the world/ and sayeth also that his father is in him and he in his father/ and that his father and he be both one thing/ not both one person but both one substance/ and with the holy ghost both one god/ than must it needs follow that to the Worlds end/ there is with the church resident the hole trinity. whose assistance being to the church perpetual/ how can it at any time fall from true faith to false errors and heresies?   

The xxx chapter  
¶ where as the messenger had thought before/ that it were herd to believe any thing certainly save holy scripture though the church did agree therein and command it/ the Authore showeth that saving for th'authority of the church/ men could not know what scripture they should believe. And here is it showed that god will not suffer the church to be deceived in the choice of the very scripture of god from any counterfete.  
NOw is it I suppose well & clearly proved by scripture the thing that I promised/ that is to wit that the church can not err in any such substantial article as god will have us bound to believe. ¶ But yet for as much as ye regard nothing but scripture only/ this would I fain wit of you whither ye believe that christ was borne of a virgin. ¶ what else quoth he. ¶ why believe you that quoth I? ¶ The gospel showeth me so quoth he. ¶ what if it did not quoth I/ were than your creed out of credence but if he bring witness with him? ¶ The creed quoth he is a thing by it self. ¶ yet is it quoth I no part of the gospel as the pater noster is. And yet I think if gospel had never been written/ ye would have believed your creed. ¶ So think I to q he. ¶ And wherefore q I/ but for because the church should have showed you so? But let our creed alone a while and go we to the gospel self. which gospel telleth you that christ was borne of a virgin? ¶ The gospel of saint luke quoth he. ¶ How know you that q I? ¶ For I read it so quoth he in the book. ¶ ye read q I such a book. But how know you that saint Luke made it? ¶ How know I quoth he other bokis/ but by that they bear the names of their authors written upon them? ¶ Know you it well thereby quoth I? Many books be there that have false inscriptions/ and are not the books of them that they be named by. ¶ That is troth q he. But yet though men did peradventure err and fail in the name/ as if he should repute a book of Stories to be made by Titus Livius which he never made but sum other honest cunning man/ yet were the book neither less elygaunt nor less true therefore. Nor in like wise if the church did miss take the very name of sum evaungelyste & gospel/ yet were the gospel never the less true. ¶ That is quoth I well said. But how be ye sure that the matter of the book is true? ¶ Marry quoth he for I am. ¶ That is quoth I the reason that a maid layeth for her own knowledge of her maydenhed. But she could tell a nother how she knoweth she hath it/ saving that she is loath to come so near as to be a known that she could tell how she might lose it. But here is no such fere. Tell me therefore whereby wots ye that the matter of that book is true? ¶ I think quod he that god showeth me so. ¶ That is well thought quod I. But he told it you not mouth to mouth. ¶ No q he. But he hath told it to other in the beginning or else it was well known in the beginning when he wrote it. And he was known and bylevyde by his living/ and the miracles that god did for him. And after that it was onis known/ the knowledge went forth fro man to man. And god hath so wrought with us that we believe it because the hole church hath always done so before our days. ¶ Now come you quoth I to the very point. for many things hath been true that in procies after hath left to be believed. And many a thing hath in the beginning been known for false/ and yet hath after happened to be believed. But the gospels and holy scripture/ god provideth that though percase sum of it may perish & be lost whereby they might have harm but not fall in error (for the faith should stand though the scriptures were all gone) yet shall he never suffer his church to be deceived in that point/ that they shall take for holy scripture any book that is not. And therefore sayeth holy saint Austen/ I should not believe the gospel/ but if it were for the church. And he sayeth good reason. For were it not for the spirit of god keeping the troth thereof in his church/ who could be sure which were the very gospels? There were many that wrote the gospel. And yet hath the church by secret instinct of god/ reiectyde the remanant and chosen out these four for the sure undoubted true. ¶ That is quoth he sure so. ¶ This is quoth I so sure so/ that Luther himself is driven of necessity to grant this/ or else he perceiveth that there were none hold nor surtie in scripture it self/ if the church might be suffered by god to be deceived in that point & to take for holy scripture that writing that in deed were not. And therefore he confesseth that this must needs be a sure infallible ground/ that god hath given this gift unto his church/ that his church can always discern the word of god from the word of men. ¶ In good faith quoth he that must needs be so/ or else all would fail. ¶ Quod I than ye that would believe the church in nothing/ nor give sure credence to the tradition of the church but if it were paved by scripture/ now see it proved to you/ that ye could not believe the scripture but if it were proved to be scripture by the judgement and tradition of the church. ¶ No quoth he but when I have learned once of the church/ that it is holy scripture and the word of god/ than I believe it better than I believe all the church. I might by a light person sometime know a much more substantial man. And yet when I know him I will believe him much better than him by whom I know him if they varied in a tale and were contrary. ¶ Good reason quoth I. But the church b●ddith you not believe the contrary of that the scripture sayeth. But he tellythe you that in such placies as ye would better believe the scripture than the church/ there ye understand not the scripture. For what so ever words it speaketh/ yet it meaneth not the contrary of that the church teacheth you. And the church can not be deceived in any such weghtye point. ¶ whereby shall I know q he? ¶ why be we at the point yet quoth I? have we so soon forgotten the perpetual assistance of the trinity in his church/ and the prayoure of christ to keep the faith of his church fro faylinge/ and the holy ghost sen●e of purpose to keep in the church the remembrance of Chrystis words and to lead them in to all troth? what would it have profited to have put you ī●he remembrance of the assystense of god with the children of Israel walking with them in the cloud by day/ & in the pillar of fire by night in their earthly voyage/ and thereby to have provide you the much more special assistance of god with his christian church in their spiritual viage/ wherein his especial goodness well declareth his tender diligence/ by that he doth vouchsafe to assist and comfort us with the continual presence of his precious body in the holy sacrement? All this would not help/ if manifest reason that I made you/ and evident scripture that I rehearsed you/ can not yet print in your heart a perceiving that thassistance of god in his church must nediss preserve his church from all damnadle errors in the faith/ and give his church so farforth the understanding of scripture/ that they may well perceive that no part thereof well understand/ standeth against any article that the church believeth/ as ꝑcell of their christian faith. ¶ Nay q he I perceive it well when I remember it/ but it was not ready in remembrance.   

The xxxi chapter  
¶ In that the church can not err in the choice of the true scripture/ the author proveth by the reason which the king's highness in his noble & most famous book obiectith against luther/ that the church can not err in the necessary understanding of scripture. And finally th'author in this chapter doth briefly recapitle certain of the principal points that be before proved. And therewith endeth the first book.  
yEt would I quoth I ask you one thing wherefore think you will no● christ suffer his church to be deceyvyde in the descerninge of holy scripture from other writing/ and suffer them to take a book of hol● scripture/ that were none in deed? ¶ lest men might quoth he of sum false book reputed holy scripture/ have great occasion given them to conceive a wrong dyctryne and wrong opinions of the faith/ if god would suffer his church to take a false devised book for holy scripture & for his own holy words. ¶ ye say quoth I very truth. Now what if in the very scripture he should suffer his church miss take the very sentence in a matter substantial of our faith/ were they not in like peril to fall by false understanding in to like errors/ as they might by false writing? ¶ Yes th●t they were qu●● he. ¶ Forsooth quoth I so 〈◊〉 th●y and in much more. For in ● false ●●●ke mistaken for scripture th●●gh they ●●d it in never so high re●ereine for som● good things that they foun●● in it/ and thereby should have gr●●t 〈◊〉 to believe the false errors written in the same/ yet ●●●yng ●s ●he church alway shall have/ the true faith/ first in heart they should find many shyfties to keep out the errors. But now if they falsely should understand the true scripture/ there were no way to scape from damnable errors. And therefore may I say to you as the king's highness most prudently laid unto Luther/ sith god will not suffer his ●hyrche to mistake a book of scripture for apparel of damnable errors that might ensue thereon/ and like parel may there ensue by the my●construynge of the sentence as by the mistaking of the book/ it must nedis follow that god will in things of our faith no more suffer them to take a false sentence for true/ than to take a false book for scripture. And with this reason his highness concluded him so clearly/ that he durst never sins for shame touch that point again/ nor any colour could lay/ but that upon his own confession in all substantial points concerning the faith or knowledge of virtue pleasant to god/ the church hath so right understanding of scripture/ that it well & truly perceiveth/ that no text therein can be right understanden/ against any article that the church believeth for thing to be believed of necessity. And this point durst he never sins touch 〈…〉 ¶ S●rely quod your ●rend I 〈…〉 not though he died not. For this point is 〈◊〉 ●e cold not/ and I am here in fu●ly satisfied. ¶ Than he you q I satisfied in this also/ that the faith of the church is a right rule to carry with you to the study of ●●rypture/ to sh●pe you the understanding of the ●e●tis by/ and so to take them as they may always agree therewithal. ¶ ●e it quoth he. ¶ Than are ye, quo● I also f●lly answered in this that y● where ye said ye should not byleue the church telling a tale of their own/ but only telling you● scripture/ y● now perceive that in such things as we speak of/ that is to wit necessary points of our faith/ if they tell you a tal● which if it were false were damnable/ ye mus●e believe and may be sure that sith the church can not in such things err/ it is very true all that the church in such things telleth you. And that it is not their own word but the word of god thought it be not in scripture. ¶ That appeareth well quod h●. ¶ Than are ye q I as fully ●atysfyed that where ye lately said that y● were a disobedience to god & preferring of the church before himself/ if ye shall believe the church in such things as god in his holy scripture saith himself the contrary/ ye now perceive it 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 wy●e 〈◊〉 ●o. But sith his church in such thy●gys as we 〈◊〉 can ●ot ●rre/ it 〈…〉 that ye●●ryp●●re 〈◊〉 god 〈◊〉 ●e contrary to the f●yth of the chyrch● ¶ That is very 〈◊〉 qu●d ●e. ¶ Than it is as true quoth I ●hat ye ●e ferther f●lly answered in the ●●●ncypall point/ that the scriptures laid against y●agys & pilgrimages & worship of saints/ make no thing against them. And also that those things/ images I mean and pilgrimages & ●rayeng to saints/ are things ●●od & to be had ● honour in Crystyschyrch/ sith the church believeth so. Which as ye grant and see cause why ye so should grant/ can in such points not be suffered for the special assistance of god and instruc●yon of the holy ghost to fall in error. And some ●e we for ●his ●●ter at last with much work come● to ●n e●de. And therefore will we now to dinner. And your other obiec●yons that y● have laid/ by which ye would pro●e those things reꝓuable & make them s●me idolatry/ which we deferred afore/ those will we talk of after dinner. ¶ By my truth/ quod he I ha●e another tale to tell you that all this ●er● granted/ turnyth us yet in to as myth uncertainty as we were in before. ¶ Ye q I th●̄ have we well wal●●d after the ballad/ The ferther I go the more behind. I pray you what thing is that. For that long I to here yet ere we go. ¶ Nay quoth he it were better ye dine first. My lady will I went be angry with me/ that I keep you so long therefro. For I hold it now well toward t●●l●e. And yet more angry w●lde wa●e with me if I should ma●● you s●t and 〈◊〉 at your 〈◊〉/ as it would I wot well m●●●●n the ●●ter if is wy●●s it were. ¶ If I were quoth I like my wife I should 〈◊〉 more thereon now & e●e no me●● for longing to know. But come on th●● and let us dine first/ and ye shall tell us after.   
¶ The end of the first book.   

¶ The second book.  

¶ The first chapyter.  
¶ The messenger recapyteling certain things before proved/ & for his part agreeing that the church of christ can not in any necessary article of the faithful in any damnable error/ doth put in doubt & question which is the very church of christ/ alleging that they peradventure whom we call heretics will say that thaym self is the church and not we. Whereof the author showeth the contrary/ declaring wh●●by we may know that they can not be the chyrch●  
AFter dinner we w●lked in to the garden. And there shortly sitting in an ●ther/●egan to go forth in ou● matter/ devyding him to show what thing might that be/ that m●de our long f●renone pro●●●●● frustrate/ and left us as uncertain a● we begun. ¶ Sir q he that shall I shortly show you. Where as there w●s principally in question whither worshipping of images and relics/ and praying to saints/ and going on pyl●ry●●ges/ were lawful or not/ & that I ●●t you in mind that men laid against them certain texts of holy scryp●ure/ and also said unto you that it seemed the textis self which be the words of g●d ●●re of more authority against them than the glories of 〈◊〉/ that in such wise expone the texts as they may sem● to make for them/ ye laid on the other side the consent and agreement & comen catholic faith of the church/ which ye said/ and in deed to say the troth b●th by reason and by scripture ye proved/ that it cowld● not be err●nyouse/ and that the church could not err● in the faith that god would have known and believed. Ye proved the matter also by miracles. In which when I laid divers things moving men to doubt/ partly lest they were not true/ but specially lest they were not done by god for corroboration of the faith/ but were percase by God's sufferance done by the devil for our delusion/ deserving so to be served by our falling from the worship of god himself to the worship of his cre●turys/ ye proved me yet again that the miracles were true/ and that they mu●● needs be done by god. And that ye proved me by this that it should else follow/ that the church had a wrong believe & a damnable. Which ●fte●●nys ye proved well and substauncyally to be impossible. And for as much as there fell in the way/ occasion to s●eke of the contraryetye that seemed sometime to fall between the texts of holy scripture self and the comen per●●●syon and faith of the church/ wher● I s●yd that it was thought reasonabl● to believe the scripture being god 〈◊〉 ●●rdys rather than the words 〈…〉/ it therein proved that the comen●ayth of the church was as well goddis own words as was holy scrypt●●e self/ and of as great authority/ 〈…〉 ●●uden● in scripture should 〈◊〉 to try examine and judge the 〈◊〉 faith of Crystis church by the 〈◊〉/ but by the catholic faith ●f Crysties church should examy●e & ●xp●wne the texts of scrypt●r●. And that in the study of scripture this we●● the sure way/ wherein should give y● said great light the wrytyng● of the old holy doctors/ whereby we ●e acerteyned that the faith that the church hath now/ is the same faith and the same points that they had than of old in every age and every tyme. And in this part ye proved yet again by reason and holy scripture/ that the church hath by the teaching of god and the holy ghost the right understanding of scripture/ in all points th●t are of necessity to be known. And thereupon eftsoons ye deduced & proved that no text of the scry●t●●e w●ll understanden could 〈…〉 the worshipping of 〈◊〉 & r●lyques and the seeking of 〈◊〉/ but that all these 〈◊〉 be ●●ll proved good and pleasant to god/ and the miracles done in such placies done by god/ such his 〈…〉 so informeth and 〈◊〉 his church in so great and so 〈◊〉 cyall an article so highly 〈◊〉 the honour or dishonour of god/ 〈◊〉 it can not be suffered to fall to superstition and idolatry in stead of faith and honour done 〈◊〉 god. And this is q ge as far as I 〈…〉 and effect of all that hath 〈…〉 might grant th●t that the church doth not 〈◊〉/ and that the ch●rch h●th the right faith/ and that the church doth not mys●● take the scripture. And when all this were agreed/ he might say that the church peradventure do●h not byleue as ye say it doth. For he might happily deny the church to be that people that ye take it for/ and say that it is the people that byleu●th as he believeth/ th●t is to wite all th●se kinds of worship to be wrong/ ●●d that believeth th●m whom ye take for the church to believe wrong. ¶ If he and his company quoth I be the church/ he must tell where his fellows be? ¶ Why so q he if men should ask you and me where the church as/ we co●●de tell no one place but many 〈…〉. ¶ Let him quoth I in like wise assign some companies th●t be known for congregations to gether in divers countries. ¶ Why quoth h● in the beginning and a good w●yle after/ the church of Cry●● in every pl●ce ●ydde it self/ that men ●owlde not t●ll in any 〈…〉 they were/ nor 〈…〉 out and ●hew● 〈…〉 is gone out of the gate of God's church before actual excommunication/ & fallen of the body of the vineyard. And if they be secret/ neither professing their heresies nor actually being accursed and cast out/ they be in the church but not perfitly of it. But in such wise in ma●er thereof be they/ as a ded hand is rather a burden in the body/ than verily any member organ or instrument thereof. And therefore saith s●int Iohn as I said before/ that the heretics be gone out of us/ but they were not of us. For if they had been of us they would have tarried with us. Meaning thereby not as some would have it seem/ that a good man is not of the church nor in God's ●auour while he is good/ because he happeth to wax worse afterward. But he meaneth that in that they went their way from us/ they showed that they were nought in deed while they were with us. And ●o though they were with us/ yet w●re they not of us. For though heretics & infydelys be among faithful and well believing people/ yet be they perd● 〈◊〉 of the●. And so it appeareth as ye s●yd before/ that the church of christ is before all the churches of heretics/ and that all congregations of heretics have comen out of the church of christ ¶ That is very true quoth he. ¶ ●ell quoth I if that be true as it is in deed/ than can no 〈◊〉 in Bohe●● be the r●●ht church. For the church 〈◊〉 we call the church that believeth as 〈◊〉 by●●●●/ was there before all 〈◊〉. And never a church had ●ny church of 〈◊〉 yet/ but it ●as 〈◊〉 by 〈◊〉 ●●●rch to their hands 〈◊〉 that it is 〈◊〉 that no●e of all them can be 〈◊〉 church/ but Crysties church 〈◊〉 medies be that church that was before them all/ and out of which all they have s●rongen/ and synnies severed they●● self/ which is the church that all they deny not/ to believe against them/ the points which we believe and they reprove.   

¶ The iii chapter.  
¶ The messenger moveth that the very church peradventure is not the p●●ple that we take for it/ but a secret unknown sort of such only/ as be by god predestinate to be saved. Where unto the author answereth and declareth that it can not be so.  
Peradventure q he there might be said/ that it needeth not to assign any place where the very church and true christian congregation is. But sith every place is indifferent there unto/ it may be that all the good men and chosen people of god that ●e predestinate to be saved/ in what part so ever they be/ and how so ever they be sca●eryd/ here 〈◊〉 and there one/ here two & there two/ that these be the very church of christ. And be in this world vn●●●●●● as yet while the church doth 〈◊〉 w●nder in the pilgrimage of this short life. ¶ Marry q I this gear groweth 〈◊〉 worse to worse. And in very deed yet is this point their sh●te 〈◊〉. For first they see plainly that they 〈…〉/ that the very church can neither be deceived in the right faith 〈◊〉 mistake holy scripture or mysunderstande 〈…〉/ to the introduction of infidelyes & false believe. And this 〈◊〉 find all the heretics themself so 〈◊〉 & fa●●/ that they 〈◊〉 well 〈◊〉 they would openly and utterly 〈…〉 all together/ it 〈◊〉 not be 〈◊〉. And sith th●y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that/ and as evidently see therewith that the church which is the very church in deed/ 〈◊〉 all their w●ye●/ 〈◊〉 sith the church can not err in discerning the troth/ it must nedyl fellow that they mistake themself all the hole matter/ & be quite in a wrong way/ therefore be they 〈◊〉 to deny for the church the people that be known for the church. And go seek another they neither know what nor where/ build up in the ●yre ● church all so spiritual that they leave therein at length neither god nor good man. And first where they say that there be none therein but they that be predestinate to be saved/ if the question were of the church tryumph●unt in heaven/ th●n said they well. But we sp●●● of the church of christ 〈◊〉 herein 〈◊〉. And therefore goth their 〈…〉 fa● wide fro the place they should ●●●yt 〈◊〉/ as heuin & earth stand a sunder. For first would. I wite if the church be none but those that be prede●●ynate/ whither all that ●en predestinate be membres thereof. ¶ Why not q he. ¶ Than quoth I he that 〈◊〉 predestinate to be saved/ whither m●y h● or not be dy●●●● times a sinner in his days. ¶ What if he may q he? ¶ May he not quoth I be also divers times in his days in a wrong believe and a false heresy/ and after turn/ 〈◊〉/ ●nd amend/ & so be saved at 〈◊〉 god ha●● predestynate him to be● ¶ What th● q 〈◊〉 ● ¶ Marry quoth I for th●n shall it follow that he shall be a member of the very church and so still continue & never can be cast out being a s●a●ke heretic. ¶ Yet quoth he is he all that while a quick member of the church/ by reason of God's predestination/ 〈◊〉 though he be not sure/ yet it is in deed sure that he is and ever shall be one of the very church. ¶ It is quod I sure in deed & well know that he so shall be. But as sure is it that for the while he is not except/ that all thing that ever shall be is all ready present in deed as it is present to God's knowledge. and then were saint Poule as good while he was a ꝑsecutour as when he was apostle. And as verily a member of Crysties church or he was borne/ as he is now in heuin. ¶ Well q he though that peradventure all those that be living and predestinate to be saved be not in it/ yet may it be that theridamas be none other in it then predestynates. ¶ But it may be quod I that as men be changeable/ he that is predestinate may be many times in his life nought. And he that will at last fall to sin and wretchedness and so finally cast himself away/ shall in some time of his life be good/ and therefore for the time in God's favour. For god● blameth nor hateth no man for that he shall will/ but for that malicious will that he hath or hath had all ready. And thus shall thereby this reason be good men out of Crysties church and nowghty men therein/ faithful men out of it and heretics in it/ and both the tone and the other without reason or good cause why.   

¶ The four chapter.  
¶ The messenger month that though the church be not the number of folk only predestinate to blys●/ yet may it peradventure be the number of good and well believing folk here and there unknown/ which may be peradventure those whom we condē●●● for heretics for holding opinion against images. whereof the author proveth the contrary.  
WEll quoth he yet may it be/ that the very church of christ/ is all such as believe a right & live well where so ever they be/ though the world know them not/ and though few of them know each other. For god as saint Poule saith/ know who be his. And christ saith/ that against his church the gates of hell shall not prevail/ but the gates of hell do prevail against sinners. And therefore it appeareth well that there can be no sinners in his church/ nor that there be none of his church but good folk. And unto them our lord is present and keepeth them from errors/ and giveth them right understanding of his holy scriptures. And where they be forceth not/ how few they be to gether maketh no matter. For our saviour saith/ where soever be two or three gathered to gether in my name/ there am I also among them. And so is his very church here & there of only good men to the world unknown/ and to himself well known. And though they be few in comparison/ yet make they about in all the world a good meinie among them. As god said when the children of Israel were fallen to idolatry and worshipped the idol Baal so farforth that it seemed all were in the case/ and men knew not who where otherwise/ yet said our lord as appeareth in the xix chapter the third book of the king's/ I shall reserve for myself vii M. that have not bended their knee before Baal. So that where the synagogue and church was than/ it was unknown to man but it was well known to god. And they were not his church that seemed to be/ but a company ungathered that no man was ware of/ nor would have went. And so may it be peradventure now/ that the very church of christ is not nor many. days hath not been the people that seemeth to be the church/ but some good men scattered here & there unknown/ till god gather them to gether and make them known/ and happily those that believe against images & whom we now call heretics. ¶ This is q I a reason that Luther maketh himself. By which he would bring the very church of christ out of knowledge/ and would put it in doubt whither the saintis that the church honoureth/ were good men or not. And would that it might seem peradventure nay/ but that they were happily not good. But the good men and saints in deed/ were some other whom the world for their open lewd living reputed for nought. But where he saith that the church or synagogue of the right believe was than unknown/ that is not true. For it was well known in Jerusalem and judea/ though it had been unknown who were faithful in Samaria. And the scripture also saith not that these vii M. whom he would l●ue yet in Israel that had not bowed their knees before Baal/ were secret and unknown/ but he saith only that such a number of such folk he would leave. But now for our purpose sith ye will have the very church a secret unknown not company and congregation/ but a dysper●led number of only good men/ will you that those good men which after your reckoning make the very church/ shall have the same faith & none other than we have/ which be now reputed for the church/ or else a faith and belief different? ¶ What if they h●●● the same q he? ¶ Marry quoth I 〈◊〉 will your new by●lded church 〈◊〉 thing help your purpose. But they shall 〈◊〉 fa●●e confirm the worship of images/ p●●y●ng to saints/ and siking to pilgrimages as we. And as deeply condemn for heresy your opinion to the contrary. ¶ That is very ●●outh q h●. But it may be that of that very church that faith & belief shallbe/ that all this gear is erronyou●● and as plain idolatry as was the worshipping of Baal. ¶ if that were so q I than had Cryst not keep him vii M. from the worship of Baal in all the regions that bear the name of christendom/ except these new folk of Saxony & Bohem which yourself gr●●●●t● to be the heretics as sects co●●● out of the church. And more than word●e w●re it/ if all th● church of christ should be clean 〈◊〉 infidels and heretics and no p●●●● at all thereof among the great unchangeable krysten countre●s/ which 〈◊〉 kept their faith in one constant ●●●●hy●̄ derived into the beginning. For this am I sure/ that in all those regyon as I say/ if any have any such opinion against images and saints/ yet cometh he to the church among his neighbours/ and there boweth his knees to Baal if the images be Baal as his neighbours do. But go to let us forth on a little ferther. And supposing that there were some such secret good folk as it speak of that had the right belief and were the right church/ & that they were so dispersed a sondre that they were to the world unknown/ hath not god set an order in his church that some shall preach to the remnant for exhortation of good living and information wherein good living standeth/ as in faith and good works. ¶ Yes quoth he. ¶ Had not christ quoth I sact● m●te●al● to be ministered in his church by the priests of the same? ¶ Yes quoth he. ¶ Now quoth I if some infidels as turks or S●●ysens having herd of Crysties name/ did long to know his scripture and his faith/ and hearing that there were many people that professed themself for christian men/ hole nations but they were all open idolaters and in a mysbylefe/ and clearly deceived and beguiled/ and that specially by the clergy that teacheth them/ how be it there were yet a few good folk and right believing which were not deceived/ which among them be the very true church/ but who they be/ or where they be/ or how to ask for them/ or if he happen on them/ yet where by to know them that can no man tell him/ how should these infidels come to the faith/ and of whom should they here it. For they being warned before that there were many s●ctys of heretics and but one true church/ would never be so mad to learn of them that they might ween were wrong. And how should they now come to the right when the true church is unknown? ¶ They might q he take the scripture. ¶ They should quod I be therein like to Enuchus that could not understand without a reder. And than if they took a wrong reder of a wrong church/ all were ma●●ed. And also they would not trust the scriptures nor reckon that they had the right books of scripture among false sects/ but would look to receive the true scripture of the right and true church. And thus here it appeareth if it 〈◊〉 th●●/ god had left none ordyn●ry way for his gospel and faith to be t●ught. But let go these infidelies and speak of ourself which are (if this way were true) as fals● as they● where be than preachers of this very church that should preach and teach us better? For it is no church if it have no prechours ¶ It hath quoth he some that preach some time/ but ye will not suffer them. Ye punish them and burn them. ¶ Nay quoth I they be wiser than so they ●yll not be burned for us/ for they will rather swear on a book that they never said so/ or else that they will no more say so. And in this appeareth that there is no such secret unknown church of christ/ that having such opinions is the very church. For the very church hath ever had some that hath abiden by their faith and their preaching/ and would never go back with God's word to die therefore. And this church that we be of/ that take your church for heretics have had many such martryris therein/ the believed as we do against your opinions/ as appeareth by the histories and by many of their books/ where as of your secret church I never yet found or heard of any one in all my life/ but he would forswear your faith to save his life. Where be also you priests & your bishops? For such must they have if they be the church of christ. Now such can your church have none/ ye be each to other unknown And though some of such churches have a false opinion that every man is a priest/ and every woman to/ yet this heresy false as it is will not serve this unknown church. For the holder's of that opinion do put/ that no man may for all that take upon him to preach or meddle as priest/ till he be chosen by the congregation. And where can that be ●t this y●●gynary church/ of which n● man know●●h other? And where as our lord saith/ where soever ●e two or three gathered to gether in my name there am I with them/ he spa●e not as though every two or three what so ever they were should make his church/ but that where so ever there came to gether two or three in his name that be of his church there is he with them. And s● doth the one text of the s●ryp●●r● in the gospel plainly declare/ as it is well set out and opened by the holy doctor and glorious martyr saint Cyrpian/ in his epistle against No●●cyā. ¶ when our saviour saith also th●t he which w●lde not amend by his fault showed him before two or 〈◊〉 witness/ should be complained vpp●n unto th● church/ did he means secret chyrch● which no man wist where to fynde● Now wh●n the apostle writeth unto the corinthians/ t●●t rather than they should ple●t● and strive in the law before the i●●ydelys/ they should set such as were in the church little set by/ to be judges in their temporal suytꝭ/ of what ●hyrch died he spe●●/ of such one as no man wist where to seek it? This unknown church which they be driven to seek that be loath to ●nowe th● church/ will n●uer serve. But the church of christ is a church well known. And his pleasure was to h●●e it known and not hid. And it is builded upon so high an ●yll of the holy st●ne/ I ●●ane upon Cryst himself/ that it can not be hid. No● potest absconde c●●●tas supr● supra m●ntem posit●/ The city can not be hid that is set●e on ●n hill. And he would have his faith dy●ulged and spread abroad openly/ not always whispered in hukermoker. And therefore he bond his pre●hours to stand thereby & not to revoke his word for no pain. For he said that he did not light the candle to put it & hide it under a bushel/ for so would no man do/ but he had kindeld a fire which he would not should lie & smolder as coals doth in quench/ but he would it should burn & give light. And therefore folly were it to say the christ which would have his church spread thorough the world/ & every where gathered in company/ would have it turned to a secret vn●nowen single sort severed a sunder & scattered about in corners unknown to all the world & to themself to. Now where they say that there is none of the church but only those that be good folk/ this would make the church clearly unknown were the people never so many & the pla●e never so large. For who can know of the multitude who be good in deed & who be nought/ sith that b●d may suddenly be mended unware to the world/ ● the good as suddenly waxed worse. Now lay they for the ꝓfe of the opinion/ the words of Crist/ which luther allegeth also for the same intent in his book that he made against Ambrosi●s Catherina/ that is to wit the words wherein our lord said unto saint Peter/ that against his ch●rch gates of hell should not puayle/ by which w●●dꝭ Luther doth (as he thinketh & saith him self) marvelous gaily ꝓue/ that th●●● can be no man of the church but he that 〈…〉. For 〈…〉 h●th so many follies & fautis therein/ & so much inconvenience & absurdyte following thereupon/ that it is more than marvel yt● child of one w●●ꝭ study in sophistry 〈◊〉 for shame find in his heart to bring it in place for any earnest argument. For first if men deny him that the gates of hell do in the place signify that devil than he can never ꝓue it/ & than is all his reason wiped quite away. Now do there in deed divers old ●mētors & doctors of the church take in that place for the gatis of hell/ the gr●t● tyrauntꝭ & heretics/ by whose prosecutions & heresies as it w●re by two gates/ many a man hath gone in to hell. And our saviour promiseth in the place/ that neither of those two gatis/ that is to wit neither paynim tyrant nor crystened heretic/ should puayl against the chirch● For though they have dystr●yed & sh●l destroy many of the church/ yet shall th●y not be able to destroy the church/ but th● church sh●l stand & be by god pserued in dispit of all their teeth. And thus ye see how son● Luther's special argument were o●●rthrowē with troth. But if a man would grant him that the gates of h●l did here signify the devil/ ye sh●ld we not need to grant him that the de●●● as he is called of go● 〈…〉 of the pope/ ergo they be not the church/ ●his argument proveth that there is in earth no ●●yrch ●t all. For what church 〈◊〉 he find or imagine in earth that doth n●● sin/ & specially if that were true that himself saith among his other heresies/ where he holdeth stythy that all the good wor●ꝭ of good men be sins/ & that men sin in that they do good? And thus he would both ●●uen the church to be only a secret vnkn●wen sort of folk that do not sin/ & yet he confesses that there be none such. And so as he goeth about to take away the very c●yrch that is well known/ making as though he would find out a better/ he leaveth in conclusion no church at all. And to such a fond & false end must they nedis being it all/ that will make it a number of only such as be good mē● do not sin. For if he should be in it always when he i● out of sin/ & out of it when he is in sin/ than should a man peradventure be in it in the morning & out of it at none/ & in again at night. So that who were in it/ or when/ or where it w●re/ who could 〈…〉 out of god favour Cryst him ●elf said to his apostles/ now be you clean but not all/ & yet were they all of his church Albe it that one of them was as our s●uyor said himself/ a devil. Did I not ●●yd he these twelve of you/ & one of you is a devil? And if there were none of the church but good men as long as they were good/ than had saint Peter been onis no part of the church after the christ had appointed him for chief. ¶ But our lord in this his mystical body of his church/ carrieth his members/ some se●e/ some hold/ & all sekely. Nor they be not for every sin clean cast of from the body/ but if they be for fe●● of infection cut of/ or ellis willingly do depart & s●perate themself as do these heretics/ yt●yther refuse the church wilfully themself/ or else for their obstinacy be put out. F●● till their ●●uburne h●rtꝭ do show them incurable/ the body beareth them yet about ●yke & naughty & ca● cold as they be/ to ꝓue whither the warmness of grace going thorough this hol● my●●ycall body of Crysties church might get yet & 〈◊〉 sum life in them. But when the time sh●ll come that this 〈…〉 pleasant / some painful/ to cure her.   

¶ The .v. chapter.  
¶ The author showeth & concludeth that this comen known multitude of cry●●●̄ nations not cut of nor fallen of by heresy●s/ be the very church of christ good men and bad together.  
ANd finally to put out of question which is Crystis very church ●yth it is agreed between us & granted thorough crys●endom/ & a conclusion very true/ that by the church we know the scripture/ which church is that by which ye know ●he scripture? It is not this company and congregation/ of all these nations/ that without factions taken & precysyon from the remnant/ pro●es●e the name & faith of christ? By this church know w● the scripture/ & this is the very church/ and thy● hath ●●gō at christ & hath had him for their heed and saint Peter his vicar after him and heed under him/ & always synnies the successors of him continually/ & h●ue h●d his holy faith and his blessed sacraments & his holy scriptures delivered/ kep● and conserved therein by god and his holy spirit. And all be it some nations fall away/ yet like wise as how many bows so ever fall from the tree/ though they fall more than be left thereon/ yet th●y make no doubt which is the very tree/ all though each of them were planted again in another place & grew to a greater than the stock he came first of/ right so while we see & well know/ that all the companies & sects of heretics & scysmatyques how great soever they grow came out of this church that I spoke of/ we know evermore that the heretics be they that be severed/ & the church the stock that all they came out of. And sith that only the church of christ is the vine that christ spoke of in the gospel/ which he taketh for, his body mystical/ and that every branch severed from the tree loseth his lively nouryshing/ we must needs well know that all these branches of heretics fallen from the church the vine of Crysties mystical body/ seem they never so fresh & gr●ne/ be yet in deed but wytherlyngꝭ that wither and shall dry up/ able to seru● for nothing but for the fire.   

¶ The vi chapter.  
¶ The messenger moveth/ that sith the church is this known multitude of good men & bad to gether/ of whom no man knoweth which be the tone sort & which be the t'other/ that it may be peradueutnre that the good sort of the church be they that believe the worship of images to be idolatry/ and the bad sort they that believe the contrary. Which objection the author doth answer and confute.  
When I had said. ¶ Sir q he ye have in good faithfully satisfied me concerning the sure & vn●●wted knowledge of the very church here in earth. But yet thinketh me the one little doubt remaineth for our principal matter. ¶ What is y● q I. ¶ Marry ●yr q he it is this/ that though the very faith be in the church/ & the church can not err therein/ nor the church can not be deceived against the faith in any text of scripture/ nor no scripture is there that being well understanden doth or can do stand against the faith of the church/ & that also the church is none other but as ye say and as I see it is in deed/ but this hole comen congregation of trysten people good and bad/ not separating themself fro frowardness/ nor being put ●●t for their obstinate fawtꝭ/ yet sith it appeareth well that though the right faith be in the church/ it is not in every man of the church. And though the church can not err in such things/ yet some of the church may. Now seemeth it to some men that it may well peradventure happen/ that the good men well believing & undeceyved/ be those that believe the worship of images & praying to saints to be idolatry. And on the other side/ that those whythe believe the contrary be that part of the church that be the naughty men/ misbelievers & foul deceived. ¶ That were a very strange work quod I. ye would right now quoth I/ that in the church we should ●hynk that there were none other but good men. Will ye now agree that there be therein some good men? ¶ ye quoth be that must nedis be. ¶ Well quoth I why there be they good men that do nought? ¶ Nay quoth he. ¶ Do they well q I that do idolatry in deed though it be against their hearts. ¶ Nay quoth he. ¶ But all quoth I come to church and worship images/ & all pray to saints. Wherefore if that be idolatry/ then the church of christ is all nought. For thus do they that be of the contrary side/ for fere of being perceived. Also if one do well or preach well is ●● a good man if he deny it for fere? ¶ Nay quoth he. ¶ But now q I all that are of that sort if they happen to adventure somewhat & be spied/ they will first ꝑiure themself/ and after abjure their opinion so that if their opinion were good/ yet were themself nought. ¶ But yet q he if their opinions be good/ than be not they so evil in hiding their ententies for fere/ as they that against their true opinions do and preach openly and p●rsue them ●or saying troth. As some that fainted and fled fromartyrdome/ were not so evil as they that pursued them. ¶ Very troth quoth I if these men's opynyos were true. But yet though they were true/ yet were these men nought. ¶ And the other worse quoth he. ¶ That is well said quod I. But they and the t'other be the hole church. And if yours be nought as ye grant and must nedis grant they be/ if the other w●re nought to/ than were in the church ●one good But yourself deny not but in the church it must nedis be/ that there be some good. And there can be none but either your part or the other. Ergo sith yours be nought those that be good must nedis be the other. But none of those that be of the other could be good men if they were idolaters & ꝑsued your part for saying the troth/ & compelled them to deny the troth/ ergo the other part be not idolaters/ nor the opinion of your part for which they ꝑsue your part be not true. And thus it appeareth as me seem/ that good men of the church be against you/ & the naughty with you.   

¶ The vii chapter.  
¶ the author somewhat doth corroborat the tr●uch against the heresies holding against images/ & ●ecapy●elyng some what briefly what hath been proved/ so fynessheth & endeth the ꝓfe for his part.  
ANd yet speak I nothing of all the good men/ and well known for good men/ & holy men/ & now saintis in heaven/ that have condemned your part and written against you. And your part therefore be so sore against 〈◊〉 agay●●/ because they see their h●resyes impugned & condemned by their holy wryteigꝭ. Nor be●●dꝭ this have I nothing spoken of the general counsels condempning your part by good & substa●cyall authority/ comprobate and corroborate by the hole body of crystendom/ led there unto both long before and ever synnies/ thorough the secret operation of the holy ghost/ Who could never suffer (as yourself agreeth) the church of christ to continue so hole & so long in so damnable idolatry as this were if it were superstition and not a part of very faith and true devout religion. Wherefore sith I have proved you that the church can not err in so great a point/ nor against the right faith mistake the sentence of holy scripture/ and also that these people that believe images to be worshipped be the very church of christ/ and that of his church the good and bad both doth use it/ and the good men doth it truly/ and the bad falsely/ and that all the good men of old hath allowed and used this way and condemned the contrary/ which hath also been declared for false heresy by hole the general consayle of christendom/ approved by the faith and custom of all the people beside growing in to such consent by God's holy spirit that governeth his church/ I never need to go f●●ther or touch your texts or arguments to the contrary. For this side thus proved good/ it must needs follow that the other side is nought/ except ye have against this any further thing to say. Which if ye have never let to bring it forth. For I will for none haste leave any corne● of the matter vn●ansaked/ as far as we can any doubt find there in. ¶ In good faith sir quoth he I am in this matter even at the hard wall/ and see not how to go ferther. ¶ Now I assure you q I if I cold myself ●ynde any further obiec●yō/ I would not ●ayle to bring it in● But in good faith I suppose we be waded in this matter as far as we can both find. And I am sure as far as ever Luther found or any that ever I have seen that any thing have said or written on that side.   

¶ The viii chapter.  
¶ The author entereth the answer to the objections that had been before laid by the messenger/ against the worship of images/ and praying to saints/ and going on pilgrimages. And first he answereth in this chapter th'objections made against praying to saints.  
NOw therefore as I say further need I not to go. But yet will I somewhat touch y● things which as ye say do move many men to take the worship of images for idolatry. And it so taken & their opinion so reputed/ they taken it a ground to think the miracles done at the images/ or by 〈◊〉 of saints to be yllusyons of the d●uyl. And first will we begin at the saints themself. And by the way shall we speak of their relics images & pylgrymagis as there shall occasion ry●e in our matter. And for the first in good faith saving that the books & writingꝭ of holy doetors condemn these men's heresies/ the displeasure & anger whereof setteth them on a fire to ●●udy for the minishing of their estimation that so stand in their light/ else would I myth wontet what these here ty●●ts met to impugn the worship of saints & forbed us to pray to them. And all 〈…〉 here us. And if they do/ yet whither they can help us. And finally if they could/ yet would they we should think it solely to dysyre them because god can do it better & will do it ●ouer himself than they all. Now where they doubt whither saints hear us/ I metuayle whereof that doubt ariseth/ but if they think them deed as well in soul as body. For if their holy souls live/ there will no wise man ween them ●●urse and of less love and charity to men that need their help when they be now in heaven/ than they had when they were here in earth. For all that while were they never so good/ yet the best was worse than the worst is now. As our saviour said by saint Iohn the baptist/ that there was no woman's son greater than be/ yet the lest that was all ready in heaven was his better. We see that the nearer that folk draw thytherwa●d/ the more good mind bear they to men here. And therefore sayn● Stephen when he saw heaven open for him/ he began to pray for them the maliciously killed him. And think we than that being in heaven he will not vou●hesaufe to pray for them that devoutly honour him/ but hath less love and charity ●eyng there/ than he had going thy therward? if the tyche man that lay in hell had yet not only for fears of increase of his own punishment by his mother's damnation growing of his evil ensample insygne/ but also of a c●●nall love & 〈…〉 of blessed charity in heue●/ will no thing care for their brethren in christ whom they see here in this wretched world? Now if there be no doubt as I trow none there is/ but their holy souls be alive/ they would we did well. And as little doubt but that they bealyve if god be their god/ as he is in deed/ and he not the god of deed men but of living/ as our saviour saith in the gospel/ for all men live still and ever shall/ that he hath taken to him ●nys given live unto/ there rest●th than no ferther tose but whither they can do us any good or no/ either for that they can not here us/ or for that they can not help us. & first I me●uayl much if they think they can not help us. For while they were tere they could as appeareth in thacts of ●hapostles. And sith imbe●yllyte & lack of power is here part of our misery/ and strength of plenty of power is one great parts of wealth/ they were well furthered in that point if they were now less able to do good to them whom they say would were holpen/ than they were before. For whither they be able there to do it themself/ or only by their intercession made unto god/ this maketh no force for our matter/ so that by their means the tone ways or the t'other we take help by our devotion toward them & prayer made unto them. ¶ I think q be they may do in deed myth more than they might both by power and prayer. But it is hard somewhat to think/ that they should he●e us and see us/ and specially in so many placies at once. For though they be not cyrcumscrybed in place for lac●e of bodily dymensyon and men●●ryng/ yet are they and 〈…〉 so placed where they be for the time/ that they be not at one time in diverse placies at once as saints be in sundry countries/ & very far asundre called upon at once. ¶ Ye marvel quod I and thyn●e it hard to be believed/ that saints here us. And I while we see that the things we pray for we obtain/ marvel much more how men can doubt whither the prayers be hard or not. When s●yntys were in this world at liberty & might wal●yd the world about/ ween we that in heaven they stand tied to a p●ste? But the wonder is how they m●y see & here in sundry placies at once. If 〈◊〉 two could no more but feel and neither see nor here/ we would as well wonder. Or if we could not wonder thereof by cause we corlde not here thereof/ yet should we be far from any conceiving in our mind/ that it w●re 〈◊〉 for man to see or here ferther th●● he can feel. For we that prove it and d● see and here in deed/ can n●t yet see th● cause/ nor in no wise cea●● to wonder by what reason and mean it may be/ that I shield see tw● churches or two towns each of th●̄ two ● mile a sunder/ & both twain as far fr●me as each of them ●com● other/ and measure so great qu●●tytyes with so small a measure as is the little apple of mine eye. And of h●ryng m●ny men's voycis or any ●●●nys w●●dꝭ/●o●ing at once in to ma●● me●ny●●rys ●●andyng far a s●●der/h●●h ly●● di●●yculte to conceive. And wh●n all the reason's be made either of ●emys s●●t out frō●ur eyen to the things that w● behold/ or the figure of the things seen/ ●●●typlyed in the air from the thyng● to our eye/ or of the ●yre ●●rykē with the breath of the speaker/ and ●qually ●●lly●●● forth in bundles to the ears of the hearers/ when all the reasons be herd/ yet shall we rather delight to search than be able to find any thing in these matters that were able to make us perceive it. Now when we may with our fleshly eye & ere in this gr●ce b●dy see and here things far dystaunt from us and from sundry placies far distant a sunder/ marvel we so much that blessed angels and holy soul's/ being mere spiritual subst●uncys/ uncharged of all bourdyn●us flesh and bonies/ may in doing the same as far p●sse and exceed us & our powers natural/ as the lively soul self exceedeth our deadly body/ nor can n●t believe they here us though we find they help us/ but if we perceived by what m●●nes they do it/ as whither they see and here us coming hither to us/ or our voice coming hense to them/ or whither god here and see all & show it them/ or whither they b●h●ld it in him as one doth in a book the thing that he readeth/ or whither god by some other way doth utter it unto them as one doth in speaking/ except w● may know the means we will not else believe the m●●er? As wise as were ●e that would not believe ●● can se/ because he can not perceive by what 〈◊〉 he may se. ¶ Yet see I qu●d he no cause or need why we should pray 〈◊〉 them/ sith god can as well & will as gladly b●th here us and help 〈◊〉 as any saint in heaven. ¶ What need y●● quoth I to pray any physician to help your fever/ or pray and ●●ay any s●●geon to h●le your s●re leg/ sith god can here you and help you both as well as the best/ & loveth you better and can do it sooner/ and may aforthe 〈◊〉 plusher ●h●tter cheap/ & give you more for your word than they for your money? ¶ But this is his pleasure quoth he that I shallbe helped by the mean of them as his instruments/ though in deed all this he doth himself sith he giveth the nature to the things that they do it with. ¶ So hath it quoth I pleased god in like wise/ that we shall ask help of his holy saints/ And pray for help to them. Nor that is not a making of them equal unto god himself though they do it by his will & power/ or he at their intercession. Though god will as reason is/ be chief & have no match/ yet forbiddeth he not one man to pray for help of another. And though the father hath given all the judgement to his son/ yet doth he delight to have his holy saints pertyne●s of that honour/ and at the day of judgement to have them sit with him. Was Helyseus made equal to god because the widow prayed him to revive her deed son? Were the apostles equal to christ because that they were prayed unto for help after his deth●● in his life also? And many thyngy● did they at follies' prayer: And some time they were prayed unto and assayed it also/ and yet could not do it/ but the parties were fain to go fro them to their master therefore. And yet was he content that they were praye● unto. And for proof thereof suffered theyin at men's devout instance and prayer/ to do many miracles. And sometime were they prayed to be intercessions to their master. As where they cam● to christ & said/ dimit ●llam●●●●●●amat post nos/ dyspache this woman for she crieth upon us. And think you than that he being content & gibing men occasion to pray to them 〈◊〉 they were with him in either he will be angry if we do them as much worship when they be with him in heaven? Nay/ but I think on the other side sith his pleasure is to have his saints had in honour and prayed unto/ that they may be for us intecessours to his high majesty/ where unto ere we presume to approach/ it becometh us and well behoveth us to make friends of such as he hath in favour. He will dysdayn/ once to look at us if we be so presumpt●●●se and malapert fellows/ that upon boldness of famyliaryte with himself/ we dysdayn to make our intercessors his especial beloved friends. And where saint Poule exhorteth us each to pray for other/ & we be glad to think it well done to pray every poor man to pray for us/ should we think it evil done to pray holy ●ayntꝭ in heaven to the same? ¶ Why q he by that reason I might pray not only to saintis/ but also to every other deed man. ¶ So● may ye quoth I with good reason/ y● ye see none other likelihood but that he ●yed a good man. And so find we (as I remember) in the d●alogys of sayu● Gregory/ y● one had help by prayou● made unto an holy man late de●eaced which was himself yet in purgatory? So liked it our lord to let the world know that he was in his special favour/ though he were yet in pain of his p●rg●cyō. For our lo●de loved him never the 〈◊〉/ though he left not for him the order of his m●●●yfull● justice. And therefore let no man take his trouble or ●y●●ne●●● as a t●●●● o● God's hatred but if he f●l● him sel●●●tudge and ●s impacyent and evil c●nce●● with it. For than is ye ● token of wrath and venge●●●ce and 〈◊〉 to th●●●●●ere● ●s fruitful as painful. And in effect nothing else but the beginning of his hell even here. But on the other side if he take it patiently it purgeth/ if gladly it greatly mereteth/ and glad may he be that is with m●kenes glad of God's punys●●ēt. Saint Austyn as is written by Pos●ydo●ius dying sure seek himself of an a●es/ cured a ●other with his prayer/ and yet h● died of his sickness himself where in there was to him more mercy and favour showed/ than if himself had been cured to. For now in ●ede of health he had heaven where he should never more be seek again. ¶ Marry quoth he but I have ever heard it said th●t we should not pray to any deed man but with this condition/ if thou be a saint th●● pray for me. ¶ Why so q I more than praing to a quick man/ where I am not bound to say if thou be a good man pray for 〈◊〉. But sith I may reasonably thy 〈◊〉 him good while I know him not the contrary/ so m●ye I think him that is deed. ¶ Why quoth he whereof serveth canonysing then. If this be true I am never advised to be canoni●ed why●● I live. ¶ Ye do the better qu●d I/ nor seven year a●ter neither. For it w●ld be but a business for you. ¶ But why be they th●n canonized than quoth he? ¶ These quod I that be not canonized/ ye may for the more part both pray for them & pray to them. As ye may for and to them that b●n yet alive. But one that is canonized ye may pray to him to pray for you/ but ye may not for him. For as I remember saint austin saith that he that prayeth for a martyr doth the martyr i●●ury. And of every man ye may trust well and be seldom certain/ but of the canonized ye may reckon you sure.   

¶ The ix chapter.  
¶ The messenger yet again objecteth against relics. And putteth great dow●e in canonysing. Where unto the author maketh answere●  
HOw can I quoth he be sure therof● May the taking up of a mā●●● b●nes/ and setting his ca●tas in a g●● 〈◊〉/ & thā●y●●ng his ●●re scalp/ make a man a saint. And yet are there some unsheyned/ for no man woteth where th●y lie. And some that men do●● whither ever th●y had any body at all or not. But ma●y to recompense that 〈◊〉 all there be some again that have two bodies/ to lend one to some good fellow th●● lambeth. For as I said before somone body lieth hole in two placies far a sunder/ or else the monkies of the to●● b● beguiled. For both the placies plainly affirm that ye lieth there. And at either place they show the shrine. And in the shrine they show a body which they say is the body and boldly bide thereby that it is it/ alleging old writing & miracles also for the proof. Now must w● confe●● that either the miracles at ●he ton● place b● false or done by the devil/ or else that the same saint had ii bodies in deed. And than were that in my mind as gre●e a miracle as the greatest of them all. And therefore is it likely sonwhere a bone worshipped for a relyq●● of some holy saint/ that was peradventure a bone as Chaucer saith 〈…〉 also somethin the gospel to & ●●pro●e the ph●rysyes for making fullshe 〈◊〉 sepulchre● of holy prophet 〈◊〉 and making sh●●●●● of their g●●ys. whereby it appeareth that he would 〈…〉 worshipped and set in gay golden shrines. And yet besides this ye shall find many more worshipped I ween than shrined/ many shrined that ye find not canonized/ though ye s●ke up all the regestres in Rome. And when they be shrined and can●nysed to/ yet sith the church in the ●●●ony●acyon use th● mean th● 〈◊〉 beguile them/ for they stand to the record of men both of their lives and of their miracles/ which men may peradventure lie/ why may it not than 〈◊〉/ that the chyrch● he deceived in the canonisation. And that they may for lack of true knowledge believing untrue men/ canonyse for saints such folk sometime as be full far there from. I dare not say so much as saith saint Austyn. For he letteth not to say plainly that many bodies be w●●shypped for saints herein earth/ whose souls ●e buried in hell. ¶ Ye have quoth I said many things very stoutly. But yet let us first consider where unto all to gether weigheth. For it stretcheth no further if it were all true/ but that we might be deceived in some that we should take for say●tys. An● it neither proveth that there be no saints/ which I wot well no wise man will say/ nor that if any be they should not ●e worshipped nor prayed unto Except ye would say that if we might by possibility mistake some/ therefore we should worship none. And than should you by that reason never take any physician/ sith ye might happen upon ● dog leche for lack of knowledge of the cunning. For in recordis of men ye might he as well deceived them/ as h●re. Now suppose than first th●● of ●●yntꝭ & of ●aly●●●●/ some were true and some were false. Yet the worship that y● 〈◊〉 would we should do to them all/ should be because (that standing as they do unknown and undyscerned) ye re●ened them all true and all for goddies well beloved servants. For if ye knew of them which were true and with false/ th●● would ye worship the true/ and tread the false under foot. ¶ That is no doubt q he. ¶ Th●● quoth I if we were beguiled in some● I see no great peril grow toward v● thereby. For if there came a great meany of the king's friends into your cō●●trye/ and ye for his sake made the y●● all great che●●. If there came among them unware to you some spies that were his mortal enemies/ wearing his badge and seeming to you and so report ●as his famyly●●●frendꝭ/ whether would he blame you ●or the good there ye made his enemies or thank you for the good che●e ye made his f●●̄ dies. ¶ He would I think q he thank me for the good intreaty●ge of them both/ sith doth seemed good to me/ and both had of me their ●here but for they seemed hy● friends and for his sake: ¶ Ye say q I good reason. But I put case now that ye had an ●●●●lynge or else a plain warning/ that some of them were his enemies that seemed his best friends/ but which they were no man came tell you/ what would you now do/ make them all cheer and honourably entreat them all/ or else showing them that ye here say plainly that some of them be nought/ there fore did them be walking all with sorrow? ¶ Nay quoth he no doubt we●e it/ but that I should l●ke for thank if I cherished his enemies for his friends/ rather then despytfully to handle his frendys● or his enemies. ¶ Very well quod I. And this were true all though ye had warning that some of them w●r● his enemies. But what thank would ye then deserve if ye should shake of both/ where ye had no such● warning at all/ but would say that ye durst not make any of them cheer/ because ye thought that peradventure it might b● that some were worse than they were taken for? For in such case be you h●re/ ye know not th●t any man worshipped for a saint is none/ but only ye think that ye be not sure whether all be or some not. Yes quod ●e saint austin as I told you giveth me warning/ that many be none. ¶ Ye be q I deceived therein/ as I shall tell you after. But in the mean whyl● mark me well this/ and let it stand for a sure ground/ that all your objection if it were true/ serveth not against worshyppy●ge of saints or saints relics/ 〈…〉 the worshipping of such as were no saint is 〈◊〉 no saints rely●●es. And that 〈…〉 out examination. For surely the wordabis; whereof they took the occasion which he writeth in the first book de civitate dei/ & repeateth again in his book of the cure and care th●t men should have for them that be deed/ those words I say go far wide from all such purpose. For there he speaketh only of costly bury●nge/ & making of sumptuous sepulchres/ and doing the deed corpse of rich men worldly worship in the carrying for the and ent●erynge of the body/ as ye plainly and evidently appeareth by the matter that he writeth of. ¶ And surely sith our lord never w●ld among his chosen people give the glory of his name to another/ nor never so suffered idolatry among th● jews/ but that either ●e forth with punyss●●● and purged it/ or so 〈…〉 will have him honoured and had for hallowed in his church here in earth/ & this thing either by them that hath the cure of his church after such diligence used/ being by the canonisation declared unto the people/ or peradventure without canonisation grown there of (by the holiness well known/ and miracles many seen) so sure a common persuasyon/ through the hole people of christendom that the person is accepted and reputed for an undoubted saint/ be the bonies translated or not/ his body founden or not/ all be it by possibility of nature it m●ught be that men were in such things deceived as ye have said/ yet we boldyly may and well we ought in this case/ to trust that the grace and aid of god and his holy spirit assisting his church/ hath go●●●●yd the judgement of his ministers/ & inclined the minds of his people to such consent. And that he hath not suffered them to cure in a thing so nearly touching his honour and worship/ either truly to be applied where his will were it should/ upon himself or hy● holy saints for his 〈◊〉/ or to be wythdr●wen the use and by erroneous mistaking of troth 〈◊〉 meet and convenient to be perceived of the church for god's honour (which kind of troth god sent the holy ghost to teach his church) the same worship to be bestowed upon them whom he would in no 〈…〉 have it/ but whom he 〈…〉 nal shame. For the body 〈◊〉 or not maketh no doubt of the saint. No man doubteth of our lady. No man doubteth of saint johan theuangely●● though their bodies be not founden. And yet if they were/ then were there I think no good chrystyen man but he would be contented they were shrived and had in honour. ¶ For where as ye would 〈◊〉 be the reverence from all relics because that some be doubtful/ in that some one saints head is as ye say and of some the hole body showed at two sundry p●●cys/ it may fortune for all this that of one head there may by sundry 〈◊〉 and either part in the comen speech of people called the head. For at A mya●●● saint Iohnns head the baptist as men 〈◊〉 it in talking/ even they that have been there and seen it. But then if they be asked further question thereof/ they ●ell that the neither iowe lacheth. This may well happen also and so doth it hap in deed/ by some saint of whom in ii dyurtse countries be divers shrines/ And there be reckoned & reported that it's either of them be laid the hole body & that pilgrims at neither places do look in to that cofyn o● the s●iyne to see whether it be all o● pat●e. In some place peradventure lay the body by & some occasion that body ●●an●lat●● the 〈◊〉 of olde● and yet the shrine showed still with some of the relics ●●●●●ynynge there in. it may well happ● also that ther● were two good holy 〈◊〉 in diverse countries both of one name. And p●●●a●● in some place may the●●●e some very relics unknown and ●ysu●●ed. For in old time 〈…〉 of infydelies did 〈…〉 never can beguile them. And that is the assistance of god and the holy ghost. For else might the church be most easily beguiled in the receiving of the very scypture/ wherein they take outwardly but the testymonies of 〈◊〉 from mouth to mouth and hand to hand/ without other examination. But the secret mean that inclineth their credulyte to consent in the believing all in one point which is the secret instynetes of god/ this is the sure means that never can in any necessary point fail here in Crysties church. For if it might/ all were quite at large. And that point once taken a way/ scripture and all walketh with it. And in this mind as it seemyth/ was very sure and fastly confirmed the holy apostle saint Poule/ Which in his first epistle to the Corynthyes writeth in this wiser Obsecro vos fratres per nomen domini nostri jesu Cristi ut idipsum dicatꝭ omnes/ et non ●nt in vobis scismata/ sed sitis integrum corpus eadem ment et eadem sententia/ I beseech you my brethren by the name of our lord Ihu christ/ that you say all one thing/ and let there be no schisms or several sectis among you/ but be ye one hole entire body of one mind and one sentence. Troth is it that he taught them and other the right way so fersoth/ that he boldly forbade an angel of heaven to be believed/ if any would come & preach another gospel. But yet in this place I note much/ that he calleth upon them only for agreement/ bidding them only to agree all upon one thing/ and maketh no mention of agreement upon the best and upon the troth/ but only to avoid all discord & division and by comen consent exho●●yth them to agree all in one/ meaning thereby as me thinketh/ that if the church of christ e●●●●dyng well/ do all agree upon any one thing concerning god's honour or man's so●●e/ it can not be but that thing must needs be tr●●. For gods holy spirit th●● any●●teth his church and giveth it life/ will never suffer it all consent and agree together upon any 〈…〉. And therefore would he n●ue●●u●●er the church so fully to consent in the worship of saints and reverence of relics/ if it were a thing such as s●●m men would have it seem that is to wit a thing false and feigned. ¶ Wherein as much as ye lay to minish 〈◊〉 credence/ that it myght● seem as it say well enough that some of thē●●re ●aynyd/ yet wist I never proved th●t any such so taken and by the church approved/ was ever yet hitherto re●●●d/ either here in Crysties church or among the jews in their synagogue before Crysties days/ and yet saints they had in honour as patriarchs and ꝓphetꝭ and their bodies and relics in reue●●●●. Now if of such as s●●yd good men we never had 〈◊〉 any for ypochryties/ albe it it might be that some were such/ yet would we not I think suppose that there were any so in deed/ if we never had known it tried and proved so. And why shall we then of saints or relyq●●s 〈◊〉 doubt & mistrust? Of whom being receyue● by the church for true/ 〈◊〉 never that I could ●yt sin god wrought the world tried and proved any of both sorts untrue/ neither as I say in the church of christ no● sy●●go●● of the jews/ which two sortys●●●ty ●ere gods chosen people. And yet 〈◊〉 as well the jews as 〈…〉 I said in hon●●r/ and their relyq●●● in great 〈◊〉/ as 〈◊〉 as well by the gospel as by the ●lde 〈◊〉. ¶ jacob that ●●●y patry●●rche commanded his children in 〈…〉 to ●ary his body to the ●eryall out of th●t country of Egypte/ and so they did. And I 〈◊〉 also 〈…〉 that when they should after de●●●rte out of Egypte/ they should carry his b●nys with them. The deed bonies of the prophet 〈◊〉 as the bible ●en●y●neth ●●ysed a deed body to life. And think you then that those bonies were not there honoured for holy relyques● ¶ Nor our 〈◊〉 christ blameth not the jews in the gospel for that they garneshed the sepulchres of the old prophets/ with whose honour he was well content/ but for that they condemned themself in following the condition of them that slewethen/ intending to ●yll christ as their forefathers did his holy prophets. For as for the deed bodies of the holy prophets that god would 〈◊〉 them had in honour and reverence he declared well by that he raised a deed body by the 〈◊〉 of the deed bonies of the prophets Heliseus as I said you before. ¶ Did not 〈◊〉 l●●d in the finding of that holy relic his holy cross decl●●● by miracle and make his own cross known from the crosses of the ii thieves by the raising of a deed man with the touch thereof? Wherein is to be noted by the way/ that there was between his and theyres no notable dy●●erence/ but they nailed as he was/ or else had it be no doubt 〈…〉 vestures? And doubt we then whether g●d w●lde we should worship them when he so well and above nature ●●wordeth us for the worship we do them●   

¶ The ten chapter.  
¶ The messengre objecteth many things against pylgrymagiss and relics & worshipping of saints/ because of m●che superstitious ma●●r used therein/ and unlyefull petycyo●s asked of them/ and harm growing thereupon.  
S●r q he ye h●ue in my m●nd very well touched the matter/ co●●●tnynge that it is not in vain to pray to saints nor to worship th●●●●●nd to have their relics in some 〈◊〉. But sir all this is far from the g●ete sore, for though say●t y● m●y here us and h●lpe us to/ and acr● glad and wyllyn●e so to do/ and god also contented that they and their relics and images also be had in honour/ yeast can neither he nor they be content with the manner of the worship, first taking away his own worship in that we do them the same worship in every poynt● that we do to god. And second●ly taking their worship from them then also in that we do to their images the same that we do to themself/ taking their images for themself and so make not themself only/ but also their images fellows and matchies to god/ wherewith ●s I have said ●●fore/ neither god nor good saint can nor good man ought to be content and pleased. ¶ In faith quoth I therein if it so be ye say● very true. ¶ What say we than quoth he of the harm that goeth by going of pilgrimages/ royling about in idleness/ with the ropt/ revelling/ and ●y●awd●y/●l●tony/ wantonness/ waste/ and lechery? crow ye that god and his holy saints had not liefer they sit still at home then thus to come seek them with such worshipful service?  
¶ Yes surely quoth 1 ¶ What say we then quoth he to that I spoke not of yet/ in which we do them little worship while we set every saint to his office and assign him a craft such as pleaseth us. Saint Loy we m●ke an horsleche/ and must let our horse rather r●●ne v●●hodde and mar his hoo●e th●● to show him o● his day. Which we must for that point more religiously keep high and h●●y then Este● day. And because one s●●t● is to few at a forge/ we set ●●ynt ●polytas to help him. And on saint St●uyn● day we must le● all our horses blood with a knife/ because sayn● Stephen was killed with stones. Saint Appo●lyn we make ● tooth drawer/ and may speak to her of no thing but of fore t●the. Saint Sith women set to seek their keys. Saint ●oke we set to see to the great sickness/ because he had a sore. And with him they ioyn● saint sebastian because he was martyred with arrows. Some seem for the eye only. And some for a sore breast. Saint ●●rmayn only for children. And yet will he not once look at them/ but if the mother bring with them a white l●fe and a po● of good ●le. And yet is he wiser than saint ●●ylge●orte/ for she good soul is as they say served and content with sties. Where of I can not perce●ne the reason/ but if it be bycawse she shield provide an horse for an evil husband to ●yde to the devil vppon● For that is the thing that she is so sought for as th●y s●ye In so much that wom●n hath therefore changed her name/ and in stead of saint Wylgefor●● call her saint Uncumber/ because they taken the for a pek of oties she will not fail to uncumber them of their husbondꝭ. Long work were it to rehearse you the dyust●e manner of many praty pilgrimages/ but one or two will I tell you/ The tone Pontanus speaketh of in his dialogs/ how saint Martin is worshipped. I have forgot the town/ but the manner I can not forget it is so strange. His image is on his day borne in proce●●ō about all the stretis. And if it be a fair day then use they as he cometh by/ to cast rose water and all things of pleasant savour upon his image. But and it happen to ●ayne/ out pour they pyspotties upon his head/ at every door and every window. ●s not this a sweet service and a worshipful worship? And this as I say Pontanus writeth and telleth where it is. But this that I shall now tell you/ I dare as boldly make you sure of/ as if I had seen it myself. At saint Wa●eryes here in Pycat●y● there is a fair abb●y where saint ●alerye was monk. And upon afur●●ng● of or two up in a wood is there a chapel/ in which the saint is specially sought unto for the stone/ not only in those parties but also out of Engl●nde. Now was there a young gentylm●n which had married a merchants wife: And having a little wanton money which him thought burned out the bottom of his pursin the first year of his wedding/ took his wise with him and went over the see for none other errand but to see Flaund●rs and F●aunce and ●yde out one summer in those country's. And having one in his company that told by the way many strange things of that pilgrimage/ he thought he would go somewhat out of his may either to see it if it were true/ or laugh at his man if he fo●●d it false as he verily thought should have done in deed. But wh●● they 〈◊〉 in to the chapel they found it all true. And to behold they found it fonder than he had told. For like as in other pylyrymagys' ye see h●nged up legs of wax or arms or such● other parties/ so was in that chapel all their o●●ryngys that hung about the wallys/ none other things but men's gear and women's gear m●de in wax. Then was there besides this two round tyngys' of silver/ the tone much larger than the t'other. Through which every man died put his privy membres at the ●●lters end. Not every man through both/ but some through the one and some through the t'other. For they were not both of a bygnes/ but the one larger than th● other. Then was there yet a monk standing at the altar that hallowed certain threads of venyce gold. And them he delivered to the ●ylg●ymes/ teaching the● in what wise themself or their friends should use those threads against the stone. That they should knit it about their get●/ and say I can not tell you what prayers. An● when the monk had declared the manner the gentleman had a serua●●● that was a married man and yet a m●●ry fellow/ and he thanking the monk for the thread/ desired him to ●●che him how he should kny●●e y● about hi● wy●es gear which except the monk h●d some special craft in knitting h● thought would be ●ō 〈◊〉 because her gear 〈◊〉 somewhat short. It need not to tell y●● the every man laughed than/ save the monk that c●st 〈◊〉 his tynges & his threads in a great anger & we● this way● was not ●hys● Abide by god I had almost fought one thing that would not 〈…〉. As this gentleman and his wife were kneeling in the chapel there came a good sad woman to him/ showing him that one the special point used in that pylyrymage and the surest against the ●●ne/ she wist near whether he were yet advertised of. Which if it were done she durst lay her life he should never have the stone in his life. And that was she would have the length of his gear/ and that should she make in a aware candle/ which should bren●e up in the chapel/ and certain prayers should there be said the while. And this was against the st●ne the very shoot anchor. When he had heard her (and he was one that in earnest feared the stone) he went and asked his wife counsel. But she like a good faithful cry●●●ts woman loved no ●●the superstitions. She could abide the reman●●●ne well enough. But when she h●●de days of bren●ynge up the candle/ she knit the ●●●wes and earnestly blys●●nge her. Beware in the virtue of god what ye do quoth she. ●●●●e up quoth 〈◊〉? marry god forbid. ●t would w●●t up your ●●re upon poy●● of my life. I pray you beware of such witchcraft. Is this kind of ●●y●s and worship acceptable and pleasant unto god and his saints? ●ow when people worship ●●y●●ys in such wise that they make them bellows to god/ and y●●gys in such wise that they 〈◊〉 them for the 〈◊〉 self/ and them again ●n the other side honour them with/ such 〈…〉 ways that the 〈◊〉 goddies were worshipped with no wor●●/ finally that worst is of all/ 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 unlofull things 〈…〉 to the 〈…〉 the 〈…〉 of christ to speed them well in their to very/ and have found him a name also calling him Dysmas I ween and his fellow ●ysmas to time withal/ think you not that this gear is such among the people as rather were likely so to provoke god and his saints to displeasure/ that the devil should h●ue licence & liberty therefore to work his wonders in delusion of our superstyryous ydoltry/ then so to like and content our lord that he should show miracles for the comprobation of that manner of worshipping which we may well percyene all treason religion and virtue reproueth●   

¶ The xi chapter.  
¶ The author answereth all the objections proponed by the messenger in the tenth chapter. And some of th●y● rowched by the messenger more at large in other parts before.  
YOur hole tale in e●●erte guod I renteynyth three things. One that the people worship the saints and their images also with ly●● ho●●●● as they d● god himself. ● n●●●● that they take the images for the r●●ngys self/ which points do ●ownes to idolatry. The third is the superstitions fashion of worship with desire of unleeful things. And ●●yth th● worship that the people do to the saynt● and ●●y●●gys be f●rthe/y● conclude the thing displeasant to god and to all hallows/ and that it may theory w●ll appear th●t the miracles also be 〈◊〉 y● wor●● (of god but y● delus●●● of the devil. the fy●● 〈…〉 with ye have ●ow twice w●●●● is at onies son & shortly answer●●● for it is not 〈◊〉. For though 〈◊〉 he●● 〈…〉 〈…〉 yet it is 〈◊〉 true that therefore they worship them in every point like unto god. ¶ What point lack they qu●d he. ● M●●y the chy●f of all quoth I That is that they worship god with the mind that he is god/ which mind in worship is the only thing that m●●●th it latri● and no certain gesture 〈◊〉 readily observance. Not & we would ●ollow upon the ground unto Cry●●/ having therewith a mind that he were the best man that we could de●●y●e and thinking him not god. For if the loudly manner of bodily observance were the thing that would make latri●/ thenwer we much in p●●ell of idolatry in our courtesy used to princes ●●el●●ꝭ & p●pys to whom we uneleas low as to god almighty/ & 〈…〉 and some 〈…〉 to touch them/ & in the p●●●● his foot. 〈…〉 presties in every quere be as well ●●●fyd as the 〈…〉 that if latria that is special he now do to god stood in such things/ th●̄ were we great ydolatr●s/ not low w●rshypdome to ●●y●●ꝭ 〈…〉 nor ●●●man neither/ but the they know ●uy● men from deed stones/ & tree from wessh & bone. And when they ●f●r●● as ye spoke of our lady at our pilgrimages before our lady at another/ or one ●oode before another/ or make their injunctions & vows some to y● t●●● and s●●● to the t'other/ I we●e it esh● to perceive that they mean none other but that our lord and our lady/ or our lord for our lady sh● with more miracles at the one then at the other. And that they intent in their pilgrimage to up sit s●●● of them one place and some another or partly sometime as the place lieth for them as their de●●●● leadeth 〈◊〉 and y●● not for the place/ but for that ye ly●eth one lord by manifest, m● 〈…〉 live in antyete and trouble of mind for ●ny fer● of 〈◊〉/ considering that our father in heaven ꝓuydeth meat for the very birds of the air by whom he setteth nothing so much a● he doth by us/ yet willed not he the contrary/ but we should with our bodies labour therefore/ having o●r hertis all the while in heaven. And willed also that we should as●e it of him/ without whose help our labour will not serve. And therefore is our daily food one of the petycy●●s of the Pater noster/ the prayer that himself taught his disciples. And the horse he set not so little by/ but that rather than it should perish/ he reckoned it no breach of ye●●both day to pull him out of a pit. And therefore in d●d● me seemeth the devotion to r●nne somewhat to far/ if the smytth●● will n●t for any necessity set one a sho● upon saint Joys day/ & yet leeful enough to pray for the help of a poor man's horse. But as for your teth● I w●ne if they ached well/ ye would yo●●● self think it a thing worthy and not to simple to ask help of saint Appolyn and of god to. ¶ 〈◊〉 marry quod he/ and of the devil to rather th●n fail/ as the Lombard died for the gout. That when he had long called upon god & our lady and all the holy company of heaven and yet felt himself 〈◊〉 the better/ he began at last to call as ●a●●● for help unto the devil. And when his wife & his friends sore ab●sshed and astonied rebuked him for calling on the devil which he wist w●ll was nought/ and if that he holpp him it should be for no good/ he cried ow●e as loud as he could again/ 〈…〉/ all is good that helpeth. ¶ And ●od I wen● would I qu●d he ●all 〈◊〉 the devil and all rather than ab●●● in ●●●ne. ¶ Nay quoth I what 〈◊〉 e●er it say I can not think y● would by●●●● in the devil as that Lu●b●rd died. Ye would rather far ly●e a no●h●●/ that wh●n the f●yer apposed him in confession whether he 〈◊〉 any thing with witchcraft 〈◊〉 ●ecro●ancye/ or had any byl●fe in the devil/ he answered hy●/ Credere ●n le dyabl● 〈◊〉 ●yr no/ Io gravid ●atyge a creder● in d●● believe in the devyn 〈◊〉 he/ ●ay nay sy● I have wor●● enough to believe in god I. And so would I ween that ye were far from all by leaving in th● de●yll/ ye have work enough to by●leue in god. Ye have so much work to believe in himself/ that y● be loath me thy●k● to middle much with his saints. ¶ ●hen he had laughed a while at 〈◊〉 marry ●al●s/ In good faith quoth I a● I was about to tell you/ some what in deed it is that ye say. For ●uyll it is/ and evil it is suffered the supers●ycyo●s manner of worship. And as ●or that ye told of saint Martin if it be true/ it hath 〈◊〉 excuse/ but that it nothing toucheth our matter. For it is not 〈◊〉 worshipping but dyspyting and dysw●rshyppynge of saints. touching the offering of breed and al● to saint ●ermyn/ I see nothing much mist therein/ where y●●●●e s●me it used I ●ā not tell. But I h●●● my s●lf● se●●● often times/ and yet am I not r●m●b●ed that ever I saw pr●●te or che●●● far the better therefore/ or ●nys dryn●● thereof/ but it is given to children or poor ●olke to pray for 〈…〉 chylde●●. And I would ween it 〈…〉 in such fasshyone/ to 〈◊〉 up ●n 〈◊〉 are 〈…〉 people. But ●●w as for our 〈…〉 no wise man with the christ h●d not comē●ere. Nor it h●d be no right y● 〈…〉 have left the occasion of merit & 〈◊〉 ●e the good folk would with his h●lp● deserve by his coming/ for the 〈◊〉 the wretches would tak● thereof by th●y● own sh●uthe & malice. Nor in 〈…〉 were it none that all worship o● s●yntꝭ & reverence of holy relics & 〈…〉 saints images by which good 〈◊〉 folk do much merit/ we shield ab●lysh & put away because some 〈…〉 abuse it. Now touching the evil p●tyciōs/ though they that ask them were as I tru●● they be not a great people/ they be not yet so many that ask evil petycyō● of sainties/ as there be that ask the same of god him self. For what so ever they will ask of any good saint/ they will ask of god also. And commonly in that wild irish & s●̄ in w●lys to as men say when they go forth in robbing/ they bliss them & pray 〈◊〉 sand them good speed that they may 〈◊〉 with a good purse & do harm & take none. 〈◊〉 we therefore find a fault with every mā● nies prayer because th●uys pr●● for speed in robbery? This hath as I say no reason all though they were a gr●●e people that abused a good thing. And where as the worst that ye assign in 〈◊〉 matter is that as ye say the people d● idolatry/ in that y● say they take the images for the saint self or the rood for christ himself/ which as I said I think none doth (for some ●ood hath no crucyfyr thereon/ & they believe not that the cross which they sews ever at Iherusale●/ nor that it was the holy cross it self/ & mo●h less● think they then that the image that hangeth thereon is the body of christ himself) and all though some were so made so to think/ yet 〈◊〉 it not as ye call it the people. For a ●ew● doting dam●s make not the people. And over this if it were as ye would h●ue it see●e an hole people in deed/ yet wer● not a good thyng● to be put away for the misuse of bad f●lke.   

¶ The xii chapter.  
 
ANd we b● very sure that the thing is good/ & our way good th●rin/ & ●●t believe therein right/ not only by reasons & authority by which I have proved it you more than once all ready/ but also by that all the old holy saints & doctors of Crystis church as saint Ier●●/ saint Augustyn/ saint basil/ saint Chrisostome/ saint Gregory/ with all such other as plainly we read in their 〈◊〉/ dy● as we do therein/ & believed thereof as we believe. And sith we see what they believed/ we need not to doubt what is be●● that we believe. For if any se●te believed 〈◊〉 other/ we be sure of ●he 〈◊〉 ●er they/ that so well believed & lived there with/ that god hath accepted them for ●●yntys/ and by miracles openly declared that their faith and living liked him. ●he● 〈◊〉 ●n the other side of such as believed other wise ●s were these manifold sects of obstinate heretics/ we see not one a saint am●ng them/ nor one miracle showed for them. ¶ I wot ne●e quod he whether this reason th●t ye make would surely satisfy the other side or no. Fo● men m●y peradventure answer you that there is m●ny a glorious saint in heaven of whom we see no miracles in ert●/ nor happily never heard of their name. ¶ That may well be quod I/ & I suppose it very true. ¶ May it not also be quod he that though it were h●rde to think/ but that of miracles s●me among so many must needs be true/ ●●t sith some also may be feigned/ may it not be that those been feigned which den told to 〈◊〉 be done by them whom ye rehersed● them I mean that of old h●ue written for your part/ I mean, those whom yoxall the old doctors of the church/ and whom the church takes for ●●●●tys. ¶ This quod I were worse than any thing that we spoke of yet tofore. The worst was b●fore/ that we should pray to no saints. And now ye would either that we should hau● none/ or a● the lest that we should know none. ¶ Yes quoth he ye may ha●e saints and know for saints also many one sith th'apostles time/ though those be none whose writing ye would ●●thoryse by their sanctyfyeng. ¶ Thē●all you quoth I to that point again/ that ye think it may be that the church may take for saints and worship as saints them that been none. ¶ Surely quoth he the pro●e that y● h●ue laid unto the contrary though it be somewhat probable/ yet seemeth me not very strong nor able & sufficient to strain a m●n to consent thereto. For though the a●●y●●ence of god and his holy spirit will not s●ffer his hole church to agree 〈◊〉 to guider in any damnable err●●●● yet may he suffer them well to err in the knowledge and worship of a saynt● a●d mistake for a saint on that were a dampened wretch. For therein were no mo●● danger to man's soul/ nor no more honour taken from god/ then when the people do worship an host unconsecrate/ mistaking it through the default of an evil priest for the sacred body of our lord himself. And this y● doubt not but it is sometime done. ¶ Forget not now by the way quoth I that ye still agree that god will not suffer his hole church to agreed in any damnable error and fall in a false faith. And therewith remember that though it were no damnable error to take one for a saint that were none/ or a bone for a relic that were none/ yet were it a damnable error to worship any if we should worship none at all. And therefore sith the church believeth that we should worship them/ that kind of believe can be none error/ but must n●dys be true: Nor the kind of worship can be none idolatry/ but must needs be good and acceptable to god. And so our principal matter standing still sure & fast/ ¶ We shall somewhat see further whereto your words will way and amount. Y● deny● not quoth I but there be some saints & some miracles. ¶ No quoth he. ¶ To what purpose quoth I were miracles specially wrought by god/ was it not ●o the intent to make his mes●●ng●rs known token that the matter and substance of them is true. For else they were as likely to be spoken of in more/ sith of the false and lying sect is be so many. And then also miracles being true & being done but in one of all those many companies/ each calling himself the church/ it is a good proof that the same one in which only they be done/ is only the very tr●w church of christ to which his holy spirit & marvelous majesty giveth his special assistance. And surely of all miracles that ever god hath wrought ●or his church/ I see not in my mind lightly a more marvelous/ than that as many sects of heretics as hath sprungen and parted out of Crystis church/ and each of them labouring to be taken for the very church/ yet hath our lord hitherto never suffered neither the devil to do any wonder for them that might have the colour and face of a miracle/ nor as false as they be themself/ yet hath he not suffered them hitherto not so much to do as fain a miracle for their part. Which is to my mind not only great wonder/ but also their confessed falsehood considered/ a very clear proof that they could never have been kept from it but by the especial providence of god and his tender cure upon his chosen church/ which it hath liked him hither to/ that miracles among other things have been one good and sure mark between his church and all those erroneous sects that been sprungen out thereof/ and be not his church but would seem to be. For as for paynims/ turkys and saracens/ which by open profession a●ne of another flokke/ and bear not the name of christ nor look for him/ he suffereth the devil some time to delude with wonders and meruaylies. But the Jews that still gape after him/ their miracles as far as I can here be gone/ to the intent they may know that he hath left them and given them up/ which was wont to work all th●se wonders for them. Now as for heretics which falsely feign themself to be his own flock/ and presume to ●ere and profess his name/ he keepeth them from the honour of any miracles doing/ to th'end th●t the lack● thereof among all their setties/ and the doing thereof in his only church/ may be among many other things one good mark and sure token/ where by all the false sects of them may be discerned and known from his very true church/ that is to say from the hole congregation of true christian people in this world/ which without intermyxtyon of obstinate heresies/ profess the right catholic faith. ¶ Now is it not only true that miracles be wrought only in the church/ & thereby do show which is the very church/ but also they do show that those holy doctors for whom god hath showed them/ were good men and of the right belief. For if it were as ye would of late have had it seem/ that it might peraduen● be so that the holy doctors of our faith whom we take for saints/ were in deed no saints nor saved souls/ but happily those were saved souls & saints in heaven though it were unknown here in either which died teach the doctrine here that we now call heresies/ then were it a wondrous change that where as god among the jews provided that in every age there were some god men by their good living & his high miracles so notable & well known to the peple● that men had them alway like bright lyerly stars/ whose doctrine they might boldly believe/ & whose living they might surely follow/ he would now in his special church of christ/ not only do nothing like/ but also do clean the contrary. For if he should take the way that ye say/ to leave ever synnies thappostles days/ all the true interpreters of his and their holy writing and doctors of the very true ●aythe lie to the world unknown/ & then on the other side set forth with miracles or suffer so to be set forth with marvels/ that his church should take & accept for saitꝭ such evil persons or ypocrytꝭ as construed the scripture wrong/ & ever sin his apostles days have taught false errors/ & led his flock out of the right way in a die path to hell ward with wicked heresies & idolatry/ then hath not god sent the holy ghost/ and himself also tarried still therein/ to teach his church the troth as he said he would. But he had them holpen to beguile them himself/ which were impossible for god to do/ & more than blasphemy for any man to think. For this were not like the sufferance of an unsecrat host/ whereof ye put the sample/ wherein the people's invincible ignorance with their devout affection may without harm to their souls be suffered in the thing that seldom happeth and endureth for so short a while: But if god would leave all good doctors unknown/ and suffer his church to be deceived with miracles and meruaylꝭ done by them that taught heresies & setforth idolatry/ then should himself as I say not only suffer his honour and right faith and religion to be perpetually l●st/ but help also himself to destroy it. Which who so could think possible/ were worse than judas/ and more mad than any man in bedlam. And therefore can it not in no wise be/ that the church can be deceived in that they take for saints these holy doctors of the church. Nor they so being/ can it in any wise be that the doctrine wherein they consent and agree can be false or untrue? Among which doctrine sith the things whereof we speak/ I mean the praying to saints/ the worship of images/ reverencing of relics/ and going in pilgrimages is a part as by their books plainly doth appear/ we may well and surely conclude/ that none of these things be damnable or displeasant to god/ but things highly to his contentation and pleasure. And sith we further perceive that their books be written in divers regions and sundry ●gys/ we thereby well perceive that these things be parcel of the rites usagys' and believe of Crysties church/ not only now and of late/ but continually from the beginning hitherto. And sith it is plainly proved you that the church can in no wise be suffered of god to fall into any damnable error thereby/ it is yet most surely concluded/ that these things be none such. And consequently proved/ that no text of scripture seeming to sown to the contrary/ can be so taken or understanden. Nor that the church cannot in prejudice of the faith miss understand the scripture. And that the substancyall points of the faith therefore learned of the church/ is one of the surest rules that can be founden for the right interpretation of holy scripture. And that no sect of heretics can be the church of christ/ but that once church is the very church. And it is also clearly proved that the matter of miracles therein daily done/ is neither feigned by men nor done by the devil/ but only by the mighty hand of god. And such objections as ye laid unto the contrary of any point aforesaid/ be as far as I can see sufficiently answered/ except that ye have any further objection to lay therein. Which if ye have ye get no thank to spare. ¶ Whereunto he said & swore therewith that he so fully felt himself answered and contented therein/ that he thought himself able therewith to content and satisfy any man/ that he should happen to meet with/ that would hold the contrary. whereupon for that day we departed till another time/ in which we appointed to peruse the remanant of the things that he had in the beginning purposed.   
¶ The end of the second book   

¶ The third book,  

¶ The first chapter.  
¶ The messenger having in the mean while been at the university/ showeth unto the author an objection which he learned there/ against one point proved in the first book/ that is to wit that in the necessary poyntis of the faith/ equal credence is to be given to the church and to the scripture. Which objection on the author answereth and dissolveth.  
ABout for tenyght after your friend came again in a morning new comen from the university/ where he was as ye wot at learning ere he can at you. And there had he now as he said visited some of his old acquaintance. And upon occasion rising in communication/ had again repeated with some of them very fresh learned men/ good part of our foremare disceptation & reasoning/ had between us before his departing. Which as he said they took great pleasure in/ and much wished to have been present there at. But surely he said that some of them seemed to take very sore to heart/ the hard handling of the man that ye write of/ and the burning of the new testament/ and the forbidding of Luther's books to be red/ which were as some of them thought/ not all thing so bad as they were made for. And finally touching the burning of heretics/ there were some that thought the clergy therein far out of right order of charity. ¶ I am q I very glad that it hath been your hap to be ●here. Not so much for any thing that ye have showed them of our communication had all ready concerning the praying of saints/ worshipping of images and relics/ and going in pilgrimage/ wherein I think ye told them no newly/ for I doubt not but they cold have told you more of that matters themself than ye have herd or could here of me/ as for that I think that among them being as ye say so well learned/ ye h●●e either herd somewhat whereby ye be in some part of these matters that we shalt speak of all ●●dy ●a●y●fyed/ whereby our business ●h●in may be the shorter/ or ellis ye be the mo●●●trong●ly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉ted for the other part/ whereby our disputation shallbe the fuller/ and the matters the more pl●●●ly 〈◊〉/ for the more ample satisfaction of such as yourself or your master shall hereafter hap to find in any doubt of these things that we shall now touch and treat of● ¶ In deed quoth he somewhat have they showed me their minds therein/ as in some part of the matters ye shall here when we hap to come to them. ¶ That shall I gladly here quoth I/ and shape you such answer as my poor wit will serve me. But yet I pray you be plain with me in one thing. Were they satysfayed and held themself content in those things that were at last with much work agreed between us? ¶ In good faith quoth he to say the truth/ all were save one/ & he in all thing save one. And to your great praise and high commendation/ they said that in these maters● ¶ Nay q I let their praise pass lest ye make me to proud. But I pray you tell me/ not which one misliked one thing/ but what one thing it was/ and why he misliked ye. ¶ Surely quoth he for aught that I could bend upon him/ he could never agree that the faith of the church out of scripture/ should be as s●re and bind us to the belief thereof/ as the words of holy scripture. ¶ Why quoth I if ye remembered well what we said/ ye had enough to prove him yt. ¶ Troth is it quoth he so had I and so died I/ and in such wise that divers ways I brought him to the bay/ that he wist not how to void. But than said he to me that he would not do with me as I had doubt with you. Nor it was he said no wisdom for a man against his adversary to use alway the buckler hand. For so must all the apparel be his/ & his adversary stand in surety. But on the other side if he use the sword therewith and strike among/ and drive the t'other to his defence/ so may he hap to put him in half the apparel. And like wise he said that if I proved my part so clearly to him that he could not say nay/ yet if I would again answer him another while/ he might peradventure bring me to the same point on the other side/ and than should the matter stand yet at the large. For of two contraries if both the parts be proved/ than stand they both unproved. And therefore quoth he I pray you answer me this a little. When you believe the church/ wherefore do you believe the church? do you not believe it because it ●ayth truth? Yes marry q I what else. And how know you quoth he that the church saith troth? Know ye that any other wise than by scripture? Nay marry q I. But than by plain scripture I know it very well. For the scripture telleth me that god hath fully taught and teacheth his church and biddeth me believe his church. Lo q he for all our long process see where to ye be brought now. Ye would in any wise before/ & ye seemed to prove it to (all the while that ye argued & I answered) that the church was in all necessary points of our faith/ as much to be believed as the scripture/ and that we should not h●ue believed the scripture but for the authority of the church/ as ye say saint austin saith. And now wh●n I argue and ye answer/ I have driven you to the wall in three words/ & provided unto you that the church is not to be believed/ nor that yourself believeth it not but for the authority of the scripture. And after that he had thus said/ that remanant that were present allowed it much/ & I was their with astonied & said I would advise me ferther thereon. But he laughed and said he would lend me this and not to be hasty on me/ for he would give me respite of payment till I had spoken with you again. ¶ When your friend had told/ forsorth q I he dealt with you like a courteys' creditor. And sith he hath given you so long day/ ye shall not need I trust to die in his debt. And to say the truth ye own him not much. For ye may hear him his own again & tell him his money is nought. But I have espied it is as he saith a great advantage for him to oppose. For he hath such craft in arguing/ that he will soon bring the answerer to a perilous point/ if he happen on one that will answer him handsomely as he would have him. But on the other side if he had happened on one that had answered him as frowardly as the boy answered one Caius a peote at cambridge/ than had he by his opposing part/ won nothing at all. For Caius for his pleasure playing with the boy being a young sophister/ said that he would prove the boy an ass. Which when the boy denied/ well quod Caius thou wilt grant me this first that every thing that hath two ears is an ass. Nay marry master will I not quoth the boy. No wilt thou quoth Caius/ Ah wily boy/ there thou goest beyond me. For & thou wouldest have granted me that/ I would have proved the an ass a none. Marry master q the boy so ye might well/ and so might every fool do. well quoth Caius I will go now another way to work with the. Thou wilt grant me that every ass hath two ears. Nay marry will I not master quod the boy. Why so boy q he. Marry master quoth he for some ass may hap to have never one/ for they may be cut of both. Nay quod Caius I give the over for thou art to froward a boy for me. And so if ye had not granted what he would/ he had nothing won at your hand. Why q your friend what thing did I grant him that I should not? ¶ Forsooth quoth I no more but all that ever ye granted. For first when he asked you whither the cause why we believe the church be not because it is true that the church telleth you/ though your answer which ye made therein was not the cause of your redargution nor the thing whereby ye were concluded/ yet answered ye not well thereto when ye granted it. Why quoth he wherefore should I believe the church or any man else but because they tell me true. ¶ Some time q I it happeth so/ but sometime it happeth otherwise. For if a known liar tell you a known true tale/ ye will believe him because he telleth you truth. But now if a known true man tell you an unknown troth ye believe not him/ because the thing is truth/ but ye believe the thing to be troth because ye believe the man to be true. And so believe you the church/ not because it is troth that the church telleth you but ye believe the troth of the thing because the church telleth it. But yet was not the answer of his as I say the thing that confounded you. For now if ye so should have answered him as I have showed you/ though ye should have somewhat blenched him therewith/ yet h●● might & would of likelihood have gon● ferther with you/ and have asked you whereby ye know that ye should believe the church. And what answer would ye than have made thereunto? Marry q he than might I have said that I believe the church/ because that in such necessary points of faith the church can not err. ¶ That had been very well said quod I. But he would have asked how ye know that ¶ Than must I quoth he have said the same that I died/ that I know it by plain and evident scripture that the church in such things can not say but true. And than would I have laid him the texts that ye alleged unto me for the same purposed before. If ye so had said quoth I ye had answered him truly but yet not with your most advantage. ¶ Why so q he? ¶ For quoth I your next answer were to say as troth is/ that ye believe that the church in such things can not err/ because ye believe that god hath taught and told the same things to his church. ¶ Than would he have asked me ferther quoth your friend what thing maketh me to believe that god hath taught & told the church those things. ¶ So would he have asked you quoth I/ and so might he well. ¶ Than were we comen quoth your friend unto the same point again that he should have concluded me as he did before. ¶ Nay q I not if ye answered thereto well. ¶ Why q he what could I answer else/ but clearly grant him that I believe that thing for none other cause but only because the scripture so showeth me? ¶ No could it q I? what if never scripture had been written in this world/ should there never have been any church or congregation of faithful & right believing people? ¶ That wot I near q he. ¶ No do ye quoth I? were there never any folk that believed in god/ & had a true faith between Adam and No/ of such as never herd god speak themself? ¶ Yes quoth he I suppose there were some/ but it should seem there were very few. For there were few saved in No●s ship. ¶ The world was at that time quoth I waxen worse and worse as it waxeth now. But it is not unlikely that there were many right believing people in the mean tyme. ¶ That is quod he likely enough. ¶ Now as for the days quoth I of Noah himself/ though there were few saved alive/ yet proveth not that/ the people to be all myscreauntꝭ and without faith. For it fared be them as it faceth now by us/ that there were many that believed the troth and had a faith/ but they folowe● 〈◊〉 flesh and san●● for their sin? For there appeareth no further upon the story i●●●●●sis/ but that the world w●●●●sshed with the water of the great flood for the filth of their fleshly living. And all be it that in the first epistle of saint Peter/ it might seem some me●edulytye in them/ yet may it be that it stretched no ferther than to the lack of fere in the credence of god commination/ and o●er much hope and boldness of God's further favour and sufferance whereof they repented after to late for this psent life/ & yet many through God's mercy not to late for the final salvation of their souls (as appeareth by the good & great clerk Nicolaus de lyra upon the same place) which could in no wise have been so if they had lakked faith. Which faith what scripture had they to teach them/ or all the men in effect that any faith had from Adam thytherto? Was there also no faithful folk at all from No to Moses'/ nor himself neither till he had the law delivered him in writing? Did Abraam never believe more but those things that we find in scripture specially to have been told him by god? Was his father and all his friends infidels? Were there no people beside in all that long time that had a right faith? ¶ Yes quoth your friend that I think verily there was. ¶ That may ye quoth I be sure there was. And why did any man than believe the church that is to wit the number and congregation of good & right believing folk/ of whose mouth and tradition he heard the true believe/ against the wrong and mys●e believe that was in all the world among infidels and Idolaters bysyde? why did any man this/ but because they believed that god hath taught those things to good 〈◊〉 byfor●/ and th●● it was and w●lde ●e still the good lesson of god/ and than what thing made them to believe that god had taught them so? It was not the scripture that made them believe that/ as ye would that nothing can tell us that belief but the scripture. I pray you tell me what scripture hath taught the church to know which bookys be the very scripture/ & to reject many other that were written of the same matters and that in ●●che wise written/ & in the names of such men as (●auynge for the spirit of god given to his church) a natural wise man had been likely enough/ either to have taken both for holy scryptur/ or to have rejected both as none holy scripture? And surely in the receit of the tone/ and rejection of the t'other/ there would have been at the least way such diverse opinions that the hole church had never taken all the tone sort and rejected all the t'other/ had not that holy spirit inspired that consent/ qui facit vnanimes in domo/ which ma●yth the church all of one mind and accord. And therefore all be it that against them that no thing will believe but scripture/ we prove th'authority of the church by scripture/ and in such wise prove it them by scripture/ that they shall be fain either ferther to grant that they be bound to believe the church in things not specified in scripture/ & as fully as they believe the scripture self/ or else they shall deny the scripture & all/ yet should we have believed the church if n●uer scripture had been written/ as those good faithful fol●e did/ that believed well before the scripture was written. And 〈◊〉 the scripture self maketh us not believe the scripture/ but the church maketh us to know the scripture. And god without scripture hath taught his church the knowledge of his very scripture from all counterfeit scripture. For it is not as I say the scripture that maketh us to believe the word of god written in the scripture (For a man might (as happily many doth) read it all to guider and believe thereof never a whit) but it is the spirit of god that with our own towardness and good endeavour/ worketh in his church & in every good member thereof the credulyte and belief/ whereby we believe as well the church concerning God's words taught us by the church & by god graved in men's hearts without scripture/ as his holy words written in his holy scripture. And thus ye perceive that where ye● granted him that so died oppose you/ that we believe that church by none other way but by the scripture/ there died ye not answer him well. For we beside the scripture do believe the chyrch● because that god himself by secret inspiration of his holy spyryt/ doth (if we be willing to learn) teach us to believe his church. And also if we will walk with him/ leadeth us in to the belief thereof/ by the self same mean by which he teacheth us & leadeth us in to the belief of his holy scripture. For like wise as when we here the scripture or read it/ if we be not rebellious but endeavour ourself to believe/ & captive & subdue our understanding to serve & follow faith/ praying for his gracious aid & help/ he than worketh with us/ and inwardly doth incline our heart in to th●ssent of that we read/ and after a little spar●e of our faith/ increaseth the credence in our incredulity/ so doth his goodness in likewise incline and move the mind of every heretyq●●. In which letter he wrote that the 〈◊〉 ●●we talk of did no mor●●biu●e any heresy/ than he had done himself or the man that he wrote unto. And yet was his writing as false as god is true. wherewith he laboured covertly to make the man believe/ that th●pynyons were none heresies. And that he which was pretended to have abjured them had not so done in deed/ but had well avowed them and sty●lye a biden by them. Lo thus do such as are of that sect/ set forth their m●t●rs with lies & reason is it that they so do. For sith their sects be false/ lies be for them m●ste mete. And yet is it a mad thing of them to boast of him. For he forthwith forsook them/ and ever before his judges 〈…〉 〈…〉 there side. There is a mean● may seru● 〈◊〉 both. ¶ Ye q he/ but wot ye what the wife said that complained to her gossep of her husbandꝭ frowardness? She said her husband was so wayward that he would never be pleased. For if his breed quoth she ●e dough baken/ than is he angry. Mary no marvel q her goss●●. Mary and wot ye what go●●●p quoth she? And if I 〈◊〉 it all to har●● calys yet is he not content neither by saint jame. No quoth her gos●●●●● ye ●●●lde bake y● in a mean. In a mean quod she? ●ary I can not h●ppen on it. And s● in a ●●ayer of marrow as it is moche work to happen on the mean. And than to say they● to short is lack of devotion. And to say them to seriously is somewhat superstycy●●se. And therefore the be●● way were in mind/ to say none at all. ¶ Y● q I/ but than is god as wayward a● husband as ye spoke of/ y● wy● neither be content with his br●de burned to c●lꝭ/ nor dough baken neither. ¶ By our lady q he but be he content or not I ween he h●th much dowgh baken breed among. For the ma●●●s I tell you be in some pl●cys so●g●n faster than I can say them. ¶ Peradventure q I s● were i● need. For if they sh●ld sing matens no faster than ye say th●̄/ they should I wen● sing v●ry fe● 〈◊〉 in a year. ¶ In fayth● he & some the 〈◊〉 them m●ke me to do●e myth/ whether the 〈◊〉 in their hives use to say matins among them. For 〈◊〉 such another buzzing they make. ¶ Surely q I that is as true as it is evil done. For as it is a vice and s●me faw●e to 〈◊〉 in the service of g●d supersticious in 〈◊〉 of religious/ over dreadful and scrupulous in stead of 〈◊〉 and diligent/ so and by writing that were present at all the handelyng● of the matter. ¶ Well quoth I we shall let their wisdom & their learning alone. But as for their honesty shall somewhat show it self upon the troth or untruth of their report. Wherein first I pray you could they say that he was not cōuyct●d by as many witnesses & as good & as credible as the law requireth? ¶ So many q he & such as the law requireth? would god q he that we cowd as easily find good men & true/ as we may fyn●● so many such. For the law doth as I here say require but twain/ & yet in cause of heresy careth not mich how bade they be/ not though they be heretics themself. And is not this a wondrous case that where as in a matter of little money no law receiveth any witness but honest & credible/ the law made by the church/ should in so great a matter/ so highly touching the utter destruction of a man in body & goodis with a death the most painful that can be devised/ admit and receive a person infamed/ and give faith and credence to an infidel whom they have proved and reproved falls in his faith to god? Nor me thinketh the excuse but v●ry slender that I have ere this herd in this point alleged for the church/ that such simple witness are admitted in heresy/ because the crime is so great and so adyous that therefore it is worthy to be handled with the more rigour and the less favour. And this thing will I well agree for good reason in the punishment ●f the crime when it is pro●●d. But for god not in hatred/ and persecution of the person ere the crime ●e proved. ¶ But now where as they receive the witness of so ●leyghe and f●ls●●●lowes for a proof/ they pursue the person & not the crime. where as me thinketh on the other side/ the more heinous/ ●dyouse and abominable that the crime is/ the more slow// should we be to believe it/ and the more sure and plain proof should we have ere we should judge any man for so evil to commit it. ¶ Three is quoth I no doubt/ but that the world is so bad/ that there be many so naughty/ that they will be ready enough to bear false witness. And yet god forbid that it were so bad as y● say/ that a man might sooner find such than good men and true. And also though the witness were & would lie/ yet when they be wisely and severally examined/ they can seldom so well make their tale before/ but that their untruth shall in some part appear. And finally the law bindeth not the judge so precisely to the words of the witness/ but that it leaveth many things to be pondered and weighed by his wisdom. For it is in a judge as it is in a physician/ to whom there be many good b●kys written/ able to give good light and instruction. And yet who so would so precisely bind him to his book/ that he should nothing use the dyscre●●●ō of his brain/ he should sometime do full evil service. ¶ And yet is it as Arystotle saith well done in deed to make the laws so sufficient/ that as few things as may/ shall remain and be left to the discretion of the judge/ sith that the comen la●●● be con●●antely made by many 〈◊〉 t●●n are the p●rtyculer judges/ and also many such as are as wise as iud●●●. And ●uer that the laws 〈◊〉 to the iud●●● a sure and substantial shield/ to def●● and keep them from the 〈…〉 else would follow their sentence on the tone side or the t'other/ were their judgement never so just. For men be so partial always to themself/ that our heart ever thinketh the judgement wrong/ that wringeth us to the worse. For be it never so right/ all reckon we wrong whereof we feel harm. ¶ But yet of all thing specially the law should best content us/ for that it is ferthest out of all cause of suspicion. For where as a judge meddleth with ● matter present/ & persons whom he seeth & knoweth/ whereby there may per●as favour/ hatred/ hope/ or dread/ pity/ cruelty/ meed/ request/ or some other affection incline him to misorder himself in the matter/ the laws alway be made for the punishment of things only that are yet to come/ & who shall fall in the apparel the makers can not tell. Happily their foo●/ happily their friends (& as men's manners be mutable) peradventure themself/ for which cause the ma●ers of the law made by the people in causes cryminal/ can be but indy●ferent. And therefore I me●●●yle the more/ sith y● f●ut ye find now is not in the judges but in the laws self. Wherein ye think it evil provided that for the hatred of an heyghn●use ●●yme/ the person peradventure innocent should fall in apparel of a painful ●ethe by the more sleight witness than would be ●●ken for su●●ycyent in a far sleyghte● matter. Somewhat ye said in deed if the ●●te●●d of the crime were all y● 〈◊〉. But therein ye go far wide. For the chief cause why that in ●eyghnous● 〈…〉/ as thief t●/ murder/ 〈◊〉/ & heresy/ the la taketh such for ●●tne●●● as it will not accept in a 〈…〉 other contract m●de between two parties/ is for that ellis all such crimes should pass forth vnp●nisshed/ & thereby should the world swarmfull of such mischievous people for lack of proof and trial in the matter/ because that those which go about such an heyghnous deed as coming once to knowledge would bring them to ● shameful death/ do not use commonly/ to take a notary/ and honest witness 〈◊〉 them to make an instrument thereof/ as many men do and all men may do in a contract or comenaunt/ but use it by s●elth as covertly as they can. By reason whereof/ re●son month and necessity compelleth (except ye would all have all go to nought) to receive such recordies as they be wont to make of their counsel/ which be as ye wo●e well none but such as they be themself. And yet sometime which may s●me more strange/ we be content and r●son would we so were/ with y● wytne●●● of the parties themself. For if th●e ten thiefs rob four men at once in a wood/ though all the good that they take a way were/ one comen purse of all four/ and would all ten when they were taken well & sty●ly say ne'er/ yet were I their judge (sith all wy●●●●e seemeth not only to induce a credence or ●●●dulyt● in the judges mind) I would not let (except some other cyrcunstance wyth●●ode it) to believe the four complay●●ys in their own matter against all ten defendaunties. And all be it that percase a judge might be in a contracts made between two parties ●●duced in his own mind without any doubt to the con●●a●y to give c●●●●●e in s●ch a point to the t●ne part against the totherfor the well kn●●en tr●nth & 〈◊〉 of that t●ne/● in the t'other ꝑ●e the 〈…〉 ready to be pre●hed as it seemed if th● world would so change that the time would ●er●e it. And wh●n he was in his ex●mynacyō sore preced upon to tell for what intent he made such a sermon ready & laid it up so secretly/ destitute at last of all excuses that might be●●●ny colour of any good cause/ w●ll quod he I se● well I must tell ●ll/ I am loath to hurt any body. And thereupon he told how it was made the mo●● p●●te by the man that was abjured/ of wh●m we specially speak. So that now s●ttynge all this gear to gether/ this mennies confe●●yon/ his secret friend and companion in such matters/ his old accusations of like matters/ the heretyques' confessions that founded their heresies in the same matters v●●on thauthority of his sermon/ and besydies all this more than twenty wytnessꝭ plainly proving the matter against him/ I would fain wit who had right if he had wrong/ all though 〈◊〉 had been used to him more rigour a g●ete deal than therwas.   

¶ The .v. chapter.  
The author proveth that the spyrytu●ll judges did the man meruylouse favour/ & almost more than lawful/ in that they admitted him to such● an abjuration as they did/ and that they did not rather leave him to the secular hands.  
WHy q he what devil rigour could they more have showed for the first time/ than make hy● ad●●re and bear a faggot? ¶ Yes q●●● I some man h●d l●uer bear twain 〈◊〉 in his 〈◊〉/ than have one ●ere him 〈◊〉 on a fire a● his feet. ¶ In ●●●th qu●d he they could not have done 〈◊〉 to him at the first tyme. ¶ No q I no● if he willingly returned to the church knouleging his fault/ & ready to abjure all heresies/ and penetently submitted himself to penance. And else if he prove himself obstinate and impenitent/ the church neither is bounden nor ought to receive him/ but utterly may forsake him and leave him to the seculary hands. But now was he so obstinate that he would not abjure of long tyme. And diverse days were his iudgis fain of their favour to give him/ with sufferance some his best friends & whom he most trusted/ to resort unto him. And yet scantly could all this make him submit him self to make his abjuration. And finally were they fain for saving of his life/ to devise a form of abjuration/ whereof I never saw the like/ nor in so plain a case never would we●e I the judge/ suffer the like here after. ¶ what man was that quoth he? ¶ Marry qu●d I his abjuration was such that he therein abjured & forswore all her●sy●s/ knowledging himself lawfully convict. But where as they be wont to confess in their own abjuration that they have holden such heresies and be guilty thereof/ that would he do in no wise/ but as clearly as his fewte was proved/ and by as many/ yet would he not to die therefore confess himself fawtye/ but always stood still upon it in virtue of his oath that all they belied him. ¶ It might happen quoth he that he had forgotten that he so had pched. ¶ That were quoth I great wonder. For I am sure when he had ●er●ed so in so many placies/ he had not done it of a sudden adventure/ but of a delyberat purpose/ which except he fell mad/ it were no well possible f●r him in so great a matter to forget. And bysydꝭ this it was also deposed/ th●● in a place where he pched/ he was after the sermon reasoned withal forth●●●. And by an honest lay man had it laid unto his charge/ that he had parelousely preached/ showing him wherein. Where unto he made answer not that he had not said so/ nor that he had not meant so/ or that they had miss taken and wrong understanden his words/ but that he would preach there again son● after/ and prove his preaching true by the old doctors of the church. And this happened him not long before that he was accused. Was it not possible by your faith that he could have forgot this? ¶ It was quoth he possible enough that all to gether was false/ & that they lied all. For so might they do by possibility being but men/ and though they had been more than they were. And then he peradventure knowing that they so did/ why should he falsely confes●● a fault in himself for the falsehood of other folk? ¶ That is q I true if he so knew it. But how could that be so/ against so many ꝓuys sworn and deposing the matter upon their othꝭ/ being though they were but men/ yet men of wit and honesties some well learned also/ and men that bore him no displeasure for any other matter than his evil preaching/ men almost all such as would h●ue none other matter to him/ folk that never had other matter with him/ and many of them of little acqua●ntaunce or 〈◊〉 the one with the other/ so t●●● the●e was n● fere of conspiring to guider in one 〈◊〉 ¶ ●et quoth he were it possible that they might ly● all. ¶ And what quoth I that he had b●̄ accused● other placis byfore● both there had gone of l●te●● horse or two/ and that he would so clearly prove it that it could not be the contrary. if Sy●●en said and laid his wager the contrary/ and than they both should cheese us for judges/ and we coming all four in to the way/ Wylken would show us on the ground part in the clay and part peradventure in the snow the print of horse feet and of men's feet also by a long way ten mile together and ye will/ till they come at a water where as went a way by ship no man can tell who nor whither it forceth not for our wise case/ but now if Wylken would say that he had won his wager/ for lo here ye see the print of the horse feet all this way shone and all with the very nails in them/ so that it may be none other wise but horse h●the gone here/ if Symken after all this would say the wager were his for it is not proved that any horse had gone there/ for it might be that they were geldyngꝭ or ma●ꝭ/ here were we fallen in a great question of the law/ whither the grey mare may be the better horse or not/ or whither he have a wise face or not that looketh as like a fool as an ewe looketh like a sheep. And in this question if the parties demurred in our judgement/ we might ask advise ferther of learned men and iudgis ¶ We might quod he be suyt to be sure of the matter/ make it a cheker chamber case. Or saving the premunyre/ we might have it tried in the rote at Rome. ¶ Very well q I so that I see well by your wit and mine together/ one shy●●e or other we should find for a final end therein/ if the doubt were in that point. But now if Symken styc●ed not thereto/ but would say thus lo here ye see the men have g●●e 〈◊〉 way/ and how can y● th●n be ●●●e that any horse went here. For I 〈…〉 ●ayth he that these men which went here had horse sh●●e in their 〈◊〉 made fast upon long s●elys/ and 〈◊〉 as they went prykked them down hath in the grounde● Cut quod he this 〈◊〉 a wy●e invention. ¶ verily q I to 〈◊〉 it would not seem very gay. But now if Symkyn were contentious & would say the wager were his except it be so proved that it can be none other wise but that horse have of late gone there & then will say to us lo sirs as ye see it it may be other wise. For men might make with their hands all the prentꝭ of horse shone in the ground. And than if we would say that was never so/ he would ask us how can we be sure thereof/ while we can not say nay but it might be so/ and than would ●●yll prece upon us with this question may it not be so. ¶ It may q he by possybylite be so. ¶ Than quoth I when we grant him once that it may be so/ than will he by and by put case that it were so. And then if we grant him his case once for the possibility/ than will he shortly conclude that the other part is not so surely proved/ as it must be if Wylken should win the wager. What should we say to him now/ to whom should we give the wager? ¶ In faith quoth he I wot near what to say to him. And the matter is so mad that as for the wager what I would give Wylkyn I wot near/ but as for Symkyn except he better impugned the proof/ if the wager were but a butter fly/ I would never award him one wing. ¶ Surely quoth I and you shall rule the m●●er for me. For if ye give n●ught/ he getteth as little of me. But now what if he wax angry that his proper invention were no more set by/ nor his wit no more regarded/ and would there upon help forth his part with his oath and swear upon a bo●e that himself saw when the men made those prynties in the ground with horse sh●ne h●lden in their hands/ what would ye then say? ¶ Marry quoth he than would I say & swear to that beside the loss of his wager he had like a false foolish knave lost his honest & his soul to. ¶ In good faith quoth I & for aught I see yet I durst be bold to swear with you. And than letting wylken alone with Symken dysputing their sophem themself/ let us return 〈◊〉 again to our own matter. In which while there were so many so clear & open proofs against the man of whom we speak all this while/ though it were possible that all they might be false/ yet could there none indifferent judge so think/ except it were so proved/ & that by other means than the only oath of the ꝑtie that is accused/ swearing alone against them all. ¶ Yet q he for all that if he know indeed that he did it not/ he doth but well to abide by the truth. ¶ Very soothe ye say quod I. Nor Symken neither if he saw the men hunt the horse shone in the high way though it seemed us never so unlikely/ yet had he done well enough to say it & swear it to & stiffly to stick therby● And yet ye remember pard that if he so would have sworn ye & I both durst right now right boldly have believed that he lied. And might we not well believe the same in our case to? ¶ Yes quoth he that will I well. And therefore the judges did him but right to reckon him as convicted/ and therefore to compel him to 〈◊〉. But yet they showed him therein no such favour as ye speak of/ in that they admitted him to his abjuration without confessing of the fault. For if they had forced him thereto/ they had in my mind done him plain & open wrong/ because it might be that he said and swore true. And then should they have forced him against his conscience/ to say of himself untrue. And that should they do not only clean against right/ but also without necessity/ considering that they might as in conclusion they did/ abjure him other wise. And therefore they took the best way both for him & for themself also But synnis they did therein none other wise than as they were of duty bound/ it well appeareth he had therein no such favour as ye would make it seem that they showed him. ¶ well q I sith yourself agreeth that he had no wrong/ albe it no favour had been showed him/ yet were your errand answered as far as toucheth his abjuration. & now if I should prove you that his iudgis showed him such favour/ I fear me lest I should therewith somewhat seem to charge them that they had done though not wrong/ yet very near wrong/ the favour appearing to be showed/ if not against the law/ yet at the least way the law for favour so far stretched forth/ that the leather could scant hold. But yet these they for me. For sith I have said it/ I will tell you why/ and so much the more boldly between us twain/ for that I perceive not in you any such manner of mind toward them/ that ye would blow abroad any fault of unlawful favour founden in them. ¶ Ah well said quoth he and laughed. Ye ween I were more ready to report their rigour then any point of their favour. ¶ well ●●ken of you quoth I. I see well a man can not have a good opinion of you/ but your conscience cōstr●●th it to the contrary. But now for the matter/ I trow we be agreed both/ that all were it so that the man had been faultless in deed/ yet were the proofs against him so many/ so good/ so cle●e & evident/ & so much more than sufficient/ that neither his iudgis nor ourself neither/ nor I think his own father neither if if he had herd them/ could have thought him other than very greatly guilty. ¶ Surely q he that is true ¶ Now q I that being true that they could non other wise reckon in him though he still swore the contrary/ must it not nedis be that in his denying in virtue of his oath/ the things which they could not but believe true/ they must nedis therewith believe him all the while to lie & be ꝑiured● ¶ That followeth q he ¶ Now q I when one is accused & convicted of heresy/ what thing will the law that the church shall receive him to? ¶ what thing q he? marry to mercy. ¶ Nay q I mercy is the thing as it seemeth that they receive him by/ not the thing that they receive him to. ¶ Then is it quoth he to penance. ¶ That seemeth well said q I. For the church by mercy receiveth him to penance. ¶ But now q I doth the church openly receive to penance any person appearing & proving himself still impenytent? ¶ Nay quoth he. ¶ Appeareth not he still impenytent q I that still appeareth periued/ & still standing in perjury? And where the first part of penance is confession & humble knowledging of the fau●/ can the church reckon him penitent that still refuseth to confess his fault/ that lieth falsely still/ & falsely forsweareth himself? ¶ The church quoth he can not surely know whither he swear true or false/ and therefore they can not surely judge him ●orsworen. For it may be by po●●●●bylyte that all the witness lied. ¶ It may be to quod I by possibility if we go this way to work/ that all the men lied that ever have said they came fro Rome/ and that all the dryefies and bulls were feigned that ever were supposed to be brought fro thence/ for aught that he can tell that never came there himself/ For some one man might lie & some one bull or brief might be feigned/ and so some other & one by one/ & so forth of all the remanant. For like possibility is therein every one as is in any one. And peradventure as for your own self have never yet talked with twenty that have told you they have been at Rome. ¶ No no q he nor I ween with ten neither. ¶ And how many bullꝭ q I and bryesies have ye seen that came thence. ¶ By our lady q he bells very few/ and bryf● never non/ for I never ask after them. ¶ Then q I might you by your own reason as well doubt whither there were any Rome or no/ as whither that man lied and were forsworn or no. But in this point I will not long stick with you. For surely standing the matter in such case that his iudgiss could not otherwise think of him but that he was fauty of things which he still in virtue of his oath denied/ all were it so that they might think therewith that by possibility they might be in that mind deceived/ yet while they could not think that they could have none other mind/ but that he (though it might by possibility be true that he swore) yet was forsworn in deed/ and in very ded● persevered in perjury. Now the matter I say standing in such case/ sith he that 〈◊〉 so plain appearing perjury/ standeth in the denial of his fault & false de●●er of him self cannot be re●●ned of his fault penitent/ & unto penance ought none impenytent person to be admitted/ I will not say that his judges did wrong. But sure●y me thynkith I may well say that they showed him great favour/ in that they received him to penance without the confession of his fault. And I think verily it was a favourable fashion of abjuration/ & so strange that the like hath been very seldom seen if ever it were seen before. And that did they in hope that god shall send him more grace in time to come/ & so I beseech him to do. For I promise you for my part I never can conceive good hope of his amendment/ all the while that I see the pride abide still in his heart/ that cannot suffer him for shame to confess his fault.   

The vi chapter.  
¶ The author showeth that the person abjured for his own honest worldly/ and for the more fruit of his preaching/ if he be suffered to preach in time to come/ it were much better for him openly & willingly to confess the troth. And that now by the standing still in the denial/ he both shamyth himself/ & should if he pr●chyd sklaunder the word of god.  
IT is q he peradventure better thus. For than should he slander himself & the word of god also/ if he should hereafter preach again ¶ Nay marry q I than should he rather deliver himself fro slander & the word of god also. For than should every man see the devil cast clean out of his heart/ & hope that he should be fro thenceforth a very good man. where now thinking him to persever in a proud par●ury/ we can none other think but that he must needs be very nought still/ though we should hereafter hear him preach never so well. & that were a sore slander to the word of god/ that men should see him whom they here preach well/ so proud an ypochryte and therewith so foolish to/ that for a false hope of his own estimation preserved/ he laboryth as much as in him is to make the world ween the twenty true men were forsworn against him. wherein while there ye no man so mad to believe him/ he le●eth (if he preach in this plight) all his hole purpose/ & winneth nothing but the contrary/ that is double shame of his ꝓud perjury & high malicious mind/ in stead of the praise that he looketh & prechyth for.   

The vii chapter.  
¶ The messenger moveth a question/ it a man be sworn by a judge to say the troth of him self in a crime whereof he is had suspect/ whether he may not lawfully on his oath swear untruth/ where he thinketh the truth can not be provided against him. whereunto th'author answeryth that he is bound upon peril of perjury to say & confess troth And that much more sin & folly both was it than for the man that thus was abjured to forswear himself in the thing that he witted well would be ꝓuid/ & a shame less folly to stand still by his perjury/ when he saw the matter so clearly proved in deed. And with this fynyshyth he the matter of his abjuration.  
IN good faith q he I begin in this matter to be of your mind For the matter being so plain & clearly proved/ it was & is both sin & folly to stand in the denying. But there cometh a thing in my mind though it be somewhat out of our matter/ wherein I would be glad to here what ye think. ¶ what thing is y● q I● Mary q he I have hard sum well learned men say if a man were accused of a fault that were true in deed/ yet if it be secret & can not be proved/ in Turrian oath put unto him he may & aught to swear nay because that of secret & unknown things no mā● be his judge. For only god is judge of manis heart. And/ if he should confess it where he needeth not before 〈◊〉 competent judge/ that is to wit his secret fault openly before men whereof only god is judge/ than should he defame himself/ & that were, great sin. For holy scripture saith/ curam habe de bond nomine. Take heed of thy good name. Et meliorem nomen bonum q divitie multe. Better is a good name them much richesse. And it saith also/ Maledictus homo q negligit famā●uā. A cursed is that man that careth not what men say of him. And therefore I have hard some well learned men say/ that in this case a man may boldly deny the matter upon his oath be it never so true/ so that it be so secret as it be not able to be proved by witness. ¶ Forsooth quoth I it is a large & a long matter to speak of ꝑ●ury. But as for this point I hold it in my mind little question. For I hold this once for a sure & Turrian infallible conclusion/ that a man may never lawfully be forsworn. Marry troth it is that a man's oath receiveth interpretation/ & is not always bounden precisely to the words. As if a judge would swear me generally in a court to make true answer to such things as should be asked of me/ & after mine oath given/ he would ask me certain questions of matters nothing be longing to him/ I were not by mine oath bound to make him answer/ for as much as no such thing was in mine oath intended. And therefore if a priest that had herd a mnnys confession were called before a judge & sworn for a witness/ he might boldly swear he knew nothing of the matter. Not for the comen gloze that the confession was not made to him as to himself but as to god minister/ but for that the law dyschargyth him of showing any such thing/ no less than if his oath were given him in this manner/ what know ye of this matter out of confession. For else if there were a tyrant that would compel him by express words to swear what he knew by the m●nys confession/ the confessor had in my mind no remedy but to tell him plainly/ sir I will not swear for you nor in such matter make you any answer to die therefore/ not for any thing that I know in the man for this matter though I told you all his hole confession anon/ but for the evil that should grow by such a precedent. For if I should now excuse an innocent swearing truly that I hard no such thing in his confession/ I should in some other cause either be forsworn/ or by my refusing to swear I should make the man the more suspect/ in that I refuse to swear as much for him as I died for a no●ther. And therefore will I not make any answer in this for the peril that may fall in other. And with this answers or such other must he plainly refuse to swear what pain so ever he should endure therefore. And in like wise if any judge would give an oath to any person to tell him the truth of any crime/ which were so secret as the judge had never hard any thing thereof/ but would for his only pleasure know by the man's oath whither there were peradventure any such thing or not/ the party may deny to swear or to make him answer therein. But on the other side if he be denounced or detected unto him/ either by common fame or other information/ with such coniertures & lykelyhedꝭ as the law giveth the judge authority to give the party an oath for the ferther search of the matter/ there is he plainly bounden upon pain of eternal damnacyon with out covering or cautel to show & disclose the plain troth/ & to have more respect to his soul than to his shame. For as for those textis which ye alleged/ be far from this point. For they none other mean/ but that a man should in his living avoid ●ot only sin/ but also all occasions whereby men might have reasonable cause falsely to dy●fame him. And it was never meant of the shame that a man taketh of his own confession for his sin committed in deed. For by that he loseth not his good name/ but getteth his good name among good folk. & as for of evil mennꝭ words there is no reckoning. But surely as I say if a man had been as ill as a devil/ & after repenting his sin would for part of his penance willingly offer himself to the sufferance of open shame/ there were no good christian man that would after that like the man that worse/ but a great deal the better. And if all such open confession were sin/ there was much sin used among good folk many day in Crystis church/ when it was mich better than it is now. Lo Achan that had committed sacrilege whereof is written in joshua/ was exhorted by joshua to confess his fault openly/ & give glory to god that had detected him by lottis. And so did he/ and meekly suffered for his sin as well the shame & wonder of the world/ as the pain and bitterness of death. And therefore I no more doubt of that the●e/ but that he is a glorious saint in heaven/ than I doubt of that these the cryst promised Paradyse hanging on the cross. And ●urely if men's old faults were still their infamy after their amendment/ than was saint Peter little beholden to saint Matthew & other of his fellows that have slandered him in their gospels/ telling how shamefully after all his crakꝭ he forsook his master & forswore him both. if a good man ware naght/ the bet● he was the more sin it is & the more shame also. And is it not than in reason on the other side if a naughty man wax good/ the worse he was the better is for him & the more worship also? Our lord saith him self that for one sinner coming again to grace/ there is more joy in have than upon almost an hundred good folk that never sinned. And reckon we then that man shamed by the knowledge of his ●yn here among sinful men/ whose humble confession & me●e amendment winneth him so much worship in heaven? Trust me truly when a man hath done evil if he be duly sworn/ it is a worshipful shame & a joyful sorrow to confess the truth and good folk though they abhor the sin/ yet love they & comed the man/ as one that was nought & is good. And the shame that he conceiveth in his heart afore the world/ getteth him great honour afore god. & the short glowing here in his cheeks speedily burneth up & wasteth/ that never wasting fire of hell/ standing him ferther in stead of great part of his purgatory. And therefore to the point that we speak of without long process I tell you plainly my mind/ that no man can be excused from the peril of endless damnation/ that would upon boldness of any doctor's opinion/ hide or cover his fault by any cautel/ after a lawful oath given him to tell the plain troth therein. And who so will say the contrary he must needs hold plain against the law/ & say that no judge may lawfully give an oath to the ꝑty. whereof should the oath serve if the party might leefully forswear himself? And also if the judge may not lawfully give him y● o'th'/ than may he refuse to swear/ & may not first swear & than say false. which every man must upon damnation eschew though he foolily take an oath/ where he lawfully might refuse it. ¶ Forsooth quoth he me thinketh ye take the sure way. ¶ well q I if this be so in one that is sworn where the matter as he thinkyth can not be well proved/ how far wrong went the man that we speak of/ to forswear himself in a matter of preaching/ that he will well was so open that it would be plainly proved what sin was therein/ & what sin & folly thereto was there to stick still in his perjury/ when he saw the matter already proved so clearly & by so many/ so good/ so honest/ & so indifferent/ that he could nothing now win by the dē●●e●● but evil opinion/ & almost a despair of his amendment in all that ever hatd him? ¶ In good faith q he all this is very truth & there for we shall let him alone till god send him better mind.   

The viii chapter.  
¶ The author showeth why the new testament of Tyndals' translacyon was burned. & she with for a sample certain words evil & of evil purpose changid  
BUt now I pray you let me know your mind concerning the burning of the new testament in english/ which Tindal lately translated/ & (as men say) right well/ which maketh men mich marvel of the burning ¶ It is q I to me great marvel/ that any good christen man having any drop of wit in his head/ would any thing marvel or complain of ye●urnīg of the book if he know the matter. which who so calleth the new testament calleth it by a wrong name/ except they will call it Tyndals' testament or Luther's testament. For so had tyndall after Luther's counsel corrupted & changed it from the good & wholesome doctrine of Criste to the devilish heresies of their own/ that it was clean a contrary thing. ¶ That were marvel q your friend that it should be so clean contrary. For to some that red it it seemed very like. ¶ It is q I never the less contrary/ & yet the more peryll●us. For like as to a true silver groat a false coꝑ groat is never the less contrary though it be quick silvered over/ but so much the more false show mich it is counterfeited the more like to the troth/ so was the translation so mich the more contrary in how mich it was cra●cely devised like/ & so much the more peryllus in how much it was to folk unlearned more hard to be dyssernid ¶ why q your friend what fautis were there sit? To tell you all/ the q I were in a manner to rehearse you all the hole hook/ wherein there were founden and noted wrong & fa●●ly translated above a thousand textis by tale. ¶ I would q he fain here some one. ¶ He that should q I study for that/ should study where to find water in the see. But I will show you for ensample two or three such as every one of the three is more than thrice three in one. ¶ That were q he very strange except ye mean more in weight. For one can be but one in number. ¶ Surely q I as weighty be they as any lightly can be. But I mean the every one of them is more than thrice three in number. ¶ That were q he somewhat like a rydel. ¶ This rydell q I will soon be red. For he hath mystranslated iii words of great weight & every one of them is as I suppose more than thrice three times repeated and rehearsed in the book. ¶ Ah that may well be q he/ but that was not well done. But I pray you what words be they? ¶ The tone is q I this word presties. The to their/ the church. The third charity. For prestis where so ever he speaketh of the pstꝭ of Crystis church he never calleth them priests but always sevyours/ the church he calleth always the congregation/ and charity he calleth all 〈◊〉 love. Now do these namꝭ in our english tongue neither expsse the things that be meant by them/ & also there appeth (the circumstauncꝭ well considered) that he had a mischievous mind in the change. For first as for prestis & psthed though that of old they used commonly to cheese well elderly men to be prestis/ & therefore in the greek tongue presties were called presbiteri/ as we might say elder men/ yet neither were all prestis chosen old as appeareth by saint Poule writing to Timotheus/ nemo iuuenturē tuam contempnat let no man contemn thy youth/ nor every elder man is not a priest. And in our english tongue this word senior signifieth nothing at all/ but is a french word used in english more than half in mockage/ when one will call another my lord in scorn. And if he mean to take the latin word senior/ the word in the latin tongue never signified a priest but only an elder man. By which name of elder men if he would call the prestis englishly/ than should he rather sygnify their age than their office. And yet the name doth in english plainly sygnify chaldermen of the cities/ & nothing the presties of the church. And thus may we perceive that rather than he would call a priest by the name of a priest/ he would seek a new word he neither wist nor cared what. ¶ Now where he calleth the church always the congregation/ what reason had he therein? For every man well seeth the though the church be in deed a congregation/ yet is not every congregation the church bu● a congregation of christen people/ which congregation of christian people hath been in ●glōd always called & known by the name of the church. which name what good cause or colour could he find to torn in to the name of congregation/ which word is comen to a company of christen men or a company of turks? ¶ Like wisdom was there in the change of this word charity in to love. For though charity be always love/ yet is not ye wot well love alway charity. ¶ The more pity by my faith q your friend the ever love was sin. And yet it would not be so mich so taken if the world were no more suspecious than they say that good saint Francꝭ ●●s/ which when he saw a young mā●is a girl onis in way of good company/ kneeled down & held up his hands in to heaven/ highly thanking god that charity was not yet gone out of this wretched world. ¶ He had quoth In good mind & did like a good man/ that deemed all thing to the best. ¶ So say I to quod he. But how far be folk fallen fro the good mind now. Men be now a days waxen so full of mistrust/ that sum man would in faith ween his wife were nought/ if he should but find her in bed with a poor frete. ¶ Forsooth ye be a wanton quod I. But yet in earnest how like you the change of these words: ¶ Surely q he very nought. And that it was not well nor wisely done/ there will I trow no good wise man deny. but yet whither Hychens had in the translation thereof any malicious purpose or not/ therein will I till I see ferther play saint Frauncys part/ and judge the man no worse than the matter requyrethe. ¶ first quoth I would ye that the book should go forth and be red still in that fashion? ¶ Nay in good faith quoth he that would I not if he use it so very often. ¶ with that word quoth I ye hit the nail on the head. For surely if he changed the comen known word in to the better/ I would well allow it. If he changed it in to as good I would suffer it. if sum what in to worse so he did it seld I would wink at it. But now when he changeth the known usual names of so great things/ in to so far the worse/ and that not repeateth seldom/ but so often & so continually inculketh/ that almost in the hole book his lewd change he never changeth/ in this manner could no man dame other/ but that the man meant mischievously/ scant such a good silly soul as would ween all were well when he found his wife where ye said right now. if he called charity sometime by the bare name of love/ I would not stick thereat. But now where as charity sygnyfyethe in english men's ears/ not every comen love/ but a good virtuous and well ordrede love/ he that will studiously flee fro that name of good love/ & all way speak of love/ & always leave out good/ I would surely say that he meaneth naught. In good faith quoth he so is it not unlikely. ¶ Tha● quod I when ye see more ye shall say it is much more th●n likely. ¶ For now it is to be considered that at the time of this translation ●ych●ns was with Luther in wyttenberge/ and set certain glasyn in the mergent/ framed for the setting forth of the ungracious sect. ¶ By saint Ioh● quoth your friend if that be true that Hychens were at that time with Luther/ it is a plain token that he wrought somewhat after his counsel/ and was willing to help his matters forward here. But whither Luther's matters be so bad as they be made for/ that shall we see hereafter. ¶ Very true quod I. But as touching the confederacy between Luther and him/ is a thing well known & plainly confessed/ by such as have been taken and convicted here of herysye coming from thence/ and some of them sent hither to sow that seed about here/ and to send word thither fro time to time how it sprung. ¶ But now the cause why he changed the name of charity & of the church and of presthed/ is no very great difficulty to perceive. For scythe Luther and his fellows among other their damnable heresies have one/ that all our salvation standeth in faith alone/ and toward our salvation nothing force of good works/ therefore it seemeth that he laboureth of purpose to minish that reverent mind that men bear to charity/ and therefore he changeth that name of holy virtuous affection/ in to the bare name of love comen to the virtuous love that man ●erith to god/ & to the lewd love that is between flekke & his make. And for because that Luther utterly denieth the very catholic church in ●ri●●e/ and saith that the church of Crist is but an unknown congregation of sum folk here ii & there iii no m● wots where having the ●yght faith/ which he calleth only his own new forged faith/ therefore ●●chens in the new testament can not abide the name of the church/ but turneth it into the name of congregation/ willing that it should seem to english men/ either that christ in the gospel had never spoken of the church/ or else that the church were but such a congregation as they might have occasion to say/ that a congregation of some such heretics were the church that god spoke of. ¶ Now as touching the cause why he changed the name of pressed into senior/ ye must understand that luthere and his adherenties hold this heresy/ that all holy order is nothing. And that a priest is nothing else/ but a man chosen among the people to preach/ and that by that choice to that o●●yce he is pressed by and by without any more ado/ and no pressed again when so ever the people cheese another in his place/ and that a priests office is no thing but to preach. For as for saying mass and hearing of confession and absolution thereupon to be given/ all this he sayeth that every man woman and child may do as well as any pressed. Now doth hychen therefore to ●et forth this opinion withal after his master's heresy put a way the name of pressed in his translation/ as though prestehede were nothing. where so ever the scripture speaketh of the presties that were among the jews/ there doth he in his translation call them still by the name of prestis. But where so ever the scripture speaketh of the presties of Christis church/ ther● doth he put away the name of priest in his translation/ because he would make it se●●e that the scripture did never speak of any presties different from ley men among christian people. And he sayeth plainly in his book of obedience that presthed and all holy orders among christian people be but feigned inventions/ & that presties be nothing but officers chosen to preach/ & that all the consecration whereby they be consecrated is nothing worth. And for this cause in all his translation where so ever he speaketh of them/ the name of priest which to us in our own tongue hath always signified an en●ynted person and with holy orders consecrated unto god/ he hath chaungede in to the name of senior no word of our language/ but either used half in mockage when we speak french in sport/ dieu vous guard senior/ or at the ●erdest nothing betokening but elder. So that it is ●the to see what he meant in the turning of these names. ¶ In good faith quoth your friend it seemeth verily that he meant not well. ¶ Surely quoth I ye would well say so if y● saw all the placies which I shall cause you to see when ye will/ and ye shall soon judge them yourself. For it were to long to rehearse them all now. Nor these have I not rehearsed you as for the chief/ but for that they can first to mind. For ell●s I might shortly rehearse you many things more/ as far out of tewne as these be. For he changeth commonly the name of grace in to this word favour/ where as every favour is not grace in english/ for in some favour is there little grace. Confessyone he traunslateth in to knowledging. Penance in to repentance. A contrite heart he changeth in to a troubled heart. And many more things like/ and many martyrs untruly traunslated for the main tenaunce of heresy as I shall show you same when we look in the book. which thyngiss we shall not now reason upon for they be not worthy to be brought in questyone. But I tell you this much only for this cause/ that ye may pe●ceyue that he hath thus used himself in his translation/ to th'intent that he would set forth Luther'S heresies & his own thereby. For first he would make the people believe that we should believe nothing but plain scripture/ in which point he teacheth a plain pestilent heresy. & then would he with his false trāsla●yō make the people been ferther/ that such articles of our faith as he laboureth to destroy/ and which be well proved by holy scripture/ were in holy scripture nothing spoke● of/ but that the prech●●s have all this xv. C. year myssreported the gospel and englyshed the scripture wrong/ to lead the people purposely out of the right way.   

¶ The ix chapter.  
¶ The author showeth another great token that the translation was perilous/ & made for Turrian evil purpose.  
BUt to th'intent ye shall yet the less doubt what good ●ra●te was intended by this translacyon/ & easily judge yourself whither it was well worthy to be burned or not/ ye shall understand that there hath be sins the time another book made in english & imprinted as it sayeth in Almaigne/ a foolish railing book against the clergy and mich part made in time/ but the effect thereof was all against the mass & the holy sacraments. In this book the maker ●ayleth upon all them that caused Tyndals' translation of the new testament to be burned/ saying that they burned it because that it destroyed the mass. whereby ye may see that he reckoned that translation very good for their purpose toward the destruction of the mass. By saint marry mass quoth your friend that book is a shrewd gloze for the other. For it showed a cause for which it was well worthy to be burned and the maker with it/ if it were made to destroy the mass. But who made that second book? ¶ For so●● q I it appeareth not in the book. For the book is put forth nameless/ and was in the beginning reckoned to be made by Tyndall. And whither it so were or not we be not yet very sure. ●ow be it sith that time tindal hath put out in his own name another book ●tytled Mammona/ which book is ●er● mammona iniquitatis/ a very tresoury and well spring of wickedness. And yet hath he sithence put forth a wor● also named the obedience of a christian man/ a book able to make a crysten man that would believe it/ leave of all good christian virtues and lose the merit of his christendom. In the preface of his first book called Mammona he saith y● one frer●●●erome made the other book that we talk of/ which frere Syerome giving up his order of the frere obseruaunties came to him where he was/ showing him that he would cast of his abyte and leave his religion/ & assay now to serve god/ and that afterward he left him and went unto Roy/ which is as I think ye know another appostyta/ by whose counsel Tyndale sayeth that the frere H●ero●e made the book/ wherein Tyndall sayeth that he myslykyth his rymies/ and his over much railing. And sayeth also that he feareth lest frere Hyerome shall not well prove all that he promiseth in that book. ¶ why q your friend is that all the fere that he findeth in himself and all the fault that he findeth in the frere and his book? ¶ ye in good faith quoth I every whit. ¶ Than findeth he q your friend no fault in his apostasy. ¶ No more quoth I than I show you. ¶ Nor findeth he quoth your friend no fault in that the freres book sayeth that the new testament of Tyndall was burnid because it stroyed the mass? ¶ Never a white q I more than you here. ¶ And feareth he quoth your friend no thing else but lest the frere should ●ayle of performing of sum what that his book promysythe ¶ That is all quoth I And what he promysyth therein I faith I remember not. But it seemeth what so ever it be/ Tyndall would it were well performed. ¶ He had quoth your friend much more cause as me thinketh to fere lest men should re●en high default in his translation/ in that he nothing answereth to those words of the arrearss book/ wherein he sayeth that the new testament that was bur●yd did destroy the mass ¶ ye say quoth I very troth in my mind/ and so would he of lyklyhed if himself had not mente as the frere said. But surely for the translation I shall show you so many textis in such wise corrupted/ that ye shall not I suppose greatly doubt what he meant in his doing. ¶ And therewith all I showed your friend a book with the placies ready noted/ which book I had by licence a little before lent unto me for the nonies. wherein he saw so many corrupcyo●s/ and of such manner sort/ that albeit upon some we somewhat reasoned in the way/ yet at the last hy● self said ho/ and verily confessed that the book in such wise translated was very nought & nothing meetly to be red.   

The ten chapter.  
¶ The author showeth that the translation of Tyndal was to bad to be mended.  
BUt yet he said that the fawns might be by sum good men amended/ & than the book printed again if nothing letted but y●. ¶ Surely quoth I if we go thereto/ the faults be as ye see so many & so spread through the hole book/ that like wise as it were as soon done to weave a new web of cloth as to sow up every hole in a net/ so were it almost as little labour and le●●e to translate the hole book all new/ as to make in his translation so many changes as need mu●●e be ere it were made good/ besydies this that there would no wise man I trow take the breed which he well wist was of his enemies hand onis poisoned/ though he saw his friend after scrape it never so clean.   

The xi chapter.  
¶ The messenger findeth fault with the clergy/ in that he saith they have made a constitution provincial that no bible in english should be suffered. And in this chapter incydently the messenger much reproveth the living of the clergy. Whereunto the author somewhat showeth his mind/ defferring for the while his answer to thobye●●yon made against the constitution.  
S●r quod your friend I will not greatly s●ykke with you in that point. But surely the thing that maketh in this matter the clergy most suspect/ and wherein as it seemeth it would be full hard to excuse them/ is this/ that they not only d●̄●ne Tyndals translation (wherein there is good cause) but ever that do damn all other/ & a● though a lay man were no christian m●n/ will suffer no ley man have any at all. But when they find any in his ●epyng/ they lay heresy to him therefore. And thereupon they burn up the book and sometime the good man with all/ alleging for the defence of their doing a law of their own making a constitution pro●yncyal/ where by they have prohibited that any man shall have any upon pain of heresy. And this is a law very provincial/ for it holdeth but here. For in all other cuntrees of Christendom the people have the scripture translated into their own tongue/ and the clergy th●re findeth no ●●●he fault therein. Wherefore either our people is worst of all people/ or else our clergy is wor●●e of all clergyes. But by my troth for aught that I can see here or perc●yue by them that ha●● been else where/ our lay people be as good & as 〈◊〉 as be any 〈◊〉 And if any be other wise/ th'occasion and example cometh of the clergys'/ among whom we see much more vy●e than among ourself. ¶ Where as they should give us example of virtue and the light of learning/ now their examples what they be we see. And as for learning/ they neither will teach us but seld/ and that shall be but such things as pleaseth them some gloss of their own ma●yng/ nor suffer us to learn by ourself/ but by their constitution pull Crysties gospel out of christian people's hands. I can not well see why but left we should see the troth. The jews be not letted to red their law both learned and lewd. And yet are there in the old testament things for unlearned folk far more strange and perilous than in the new. And why should then ou● lay men be foreboden the gospel/ but if they will make us worse than jews? Wherein I can in good faith see no excuse they can find. For the scripture is to good folk the nouryssher of virtue/ and to them that be nauh●● it is the mean of amendment. And therefore while the clergy doth withdraw it us/ if our souls be in good health/ they take a way o●refode/ if our souls be ●yke they take away the medicine. And therefore as I said the f●ut is not in the damning of Tyndals' translation/ but in that they have by an express law forboden that we should have any at all ¶ Your Words quoth I be somewhat poy●naūt and sharp. But surely they pry● somewhat more the men th●n the matter. For where y● touch in effect two things/ 〈◊〉 the constitution pr●uyncyall by which it think the clerg●●●● 〈…〉 have evil prohibited all 〈◊〉 of sc●ypt●●● in to our tongue/ another the vices of the clergy in general/ the first point which in deed toucheth our matter/ I can and will with few words answer you. But as for that other which toucheth the men/ as where ye accuse the clergy in their persons of very vicious living as men much worse than ye say that we be/ and yet as though their own faults were to few/ charge them with ours to/ whereof ye call them the cause/ in this point will I keep no schools with you/ nor enter in to dyspytions thereof/ nor gladly meddle with the matter. For as I told you in the beginning sith we talk but of men's learning/ I will not meddle of men's living/ nor in the treating of this matter either praise or dispraise any man's manner/ except some such as are for their heresies & evil doctrine cast out of Crystis church/ and through all christendom dampened & dy●famed all ready by their own obstinate malice. But yet where ye speak of other contrees/ making an argument that our clergy is the worst of all other/ I wot well the hole world is so wretched that spiritual and temporal every where all be bad enough god make us all better. But yet for that I have myself seen/ and by credible folk have herd/ like as ye say by our temperalytye that we be as good and as honest as any where else/ so d●re I boldly say that the spyrytualytye of england/ and specially that p●rt● in which ye find most fault/ that is to wit that part which we commonly call the secular clergy/ is in learning & honest living well able to m●che & (saving that comparysons be odious I would say further) far able to over m●tch● number for number the spyrytu●lyte of any nation christian. I wot well there be therein many very lewd & nought. And surely where so ever there is a multitude/ it is not without miracle well possible to be otherwise. But now if the bysshopys would once take unto presthed better lay men and fewer (for of us be they made) all the matter were more than half amended. Now where ye say that ye see more vice in them th●n in ourself/ troth it is that every thing in them is greater/ because they be more bounden to be better. But else the things that they misdo/ be the self same that we sin in ourself which vices that as ye say we see more in them than in ourself/ the cause is I suppose/ for we look more upon theirs than on our own/ and fare as Esope saith in a fable/ that every man carrieth a dowbl● walet on his shoulder/ & in to the tone that hangeth at his breast he putteth other folks faults/ and therein he tooteth and poreth often/ In the t'other he layeth up all his own and swyngeth it at his back/ which himself never listeth to look in/ but other that cum after him cast an eye in to it among. Would god we were all of the mind that every man thought no man so bad as himself. For that were the way to mend both them and us. Now they blame us/ and we blame them/ and both bl●me worthy/ and either part more ready to find others faults than to mend their own. For in reproach of them we be so studious/ that neither good nor bad passeth unreproved. If they be familiar we call them light. If they be solitary we call them fantastic. If they be sad we call them solemn. If they be merry we call them mad. If they be cumprynable we call them bycyouse. If th●y b● holy we call them upocryties. If they keep few seru●●●tys we call them nyggardies. If they keep many we call them pompose. If a lewd pressed do a lewd deed than we say/ l●se what s●mple the clergy giveth us/ as though that pressed were the clergy. But th●n forget we to look wh●t good men be therein/ and what good counsel they give us/ & what good example they sh●we us. But we fa●e as do the ravens and the car●● crowies that never eidyll with any quick flesh. But where they may find a deed dog in a ditch/ thereto they ●l● and thereon they feed a pace. So where we see a good man/ and here or see a good thing/ there we take little heed. But when we see once an evil ●ede/ thereon we gape/ thereof we talk and feed ourself all day● with th● filthy delight of evil cōmunycacyo●● Let a good man preach/ a short tale shall 〈…〉 a pressed given light to the people that was but very young. ¶ Marry quoth I god forbid else/ ye may see that often and ye will. ¶ Truly quoth he it is pity that we see such light so seld/ being this wretched world in such darkness as it is. For I never saw it but once. Nor as it seemed few of the people neither. For in faith they wondered as fast thereon as though they had never seen it before. ¶ How happened that quoth I. ¶ Marry quoth he it happened that a young pressed very deuoutel● in a procession/ bare a ●andell before the cross for dying wy●h a wench/ ● bare it light all the long way. Wherein the people took such spiritual pleasure and inward solace/ that th●y lawhged a 〈◊〉. And on● merry merchant said unto the presties that followed him/ 〈…〉 which fell in to the curse of his fa●●er Noe/ for that he m●de a g●●de & showed forth in scorn the secret members of his father/ that of adventure lay and slept uncovered/ which parties Sem and japhet the blessed children ●●●●rently covered/ going backward to him because they would not see him. And surely we h●ue little ●awse to laugh at their lewdness. For vndou●●y if the clergy be nought we must needs be worse/ as I heard ●nys master Colett the good dean of Paul'S preach. For he said that it can be none other/ but that we must 〈◊〉 be one degree under them. For surely as he said it can be no lie that our savyours' ●aythe himself/ which saith of them that they be salt of the earth. And y●●alte once ap●lle/ the world 〈…〉 were all known to go about and tell them by the pollies/ to see which side were the more. And therefore in the men while I trust in god the better part is the greater. How be it y● there were in deed among them very few/ yet think I verily that for those few all the world fareth the better/ and is in their ver●●● and praye● by God's great mercy ●●●●●●yned and upholden/ as we find in scripture placies 〈…〉 one/ ●●cla●ynge plainly the pro●●y●● that an hole sinful 〈…〉 some time 〈◊〉 hole region/ taketh by the prayer of a few godly men. And no dow●● is there but like wise as he that is in the clergys' naughty/ is far the worse because he is therein/ so he that therein is good/ is fo● his clergy 〈◊〉 far the better/ and his prayer to g●● for himself & all other far the 〈◊〉 available.   

¶ The xii chapter.  
 
〈…〉 goodness whereof his nowghtyn●●●● can not appear/ that be he never so vicious and therewith so impenitent and so far from all purpose of amendment/ that his prayers were afore the face of god rejected and abhorred/ yet that sacred sacrifice and sweet oblation of Crysties holy body offered up by his office/ can take none empayring by the filth of his sin/ but highly helpeth to the upholding of this wretched world from the vengeance of the wrath of god/ and is to god as acceptable and to us as available for the thing it self/ as though it were offered by a better man/ though percase his prayers joined therewith neither much profit other/ nor the oblation himself/ as with whom god is the more greatly grieved/ in that being so bad he durst presume to touch it. ¶ Marry quoth your friend if this be thus I marvel than why it said right now that it were good to make fewer presties/ that they might be taken only of the better/ and the worse refused. For if their mas●●s be so good for us be themself never so nawght●/ than seemeth it better for us to m●ke yet more though they were yet worse/ that we might have more mas●ys. ¶ Th●t reason quod I will not hold. For though god of his goodness how bad so ever the pressed be/ well accepteth the oblation of Crysties holy body for other folk/ yet is he with that presties presumption highly discontented. And we never ought to seek our own commody●e with our neighbours harm. And also we should of our duty to god/ rather forbear the profit that ourself might attain by a mass/ than to see his majesty dysreverenced/ by the bold presumption o● of such an odious minister as he hath forboden to come about him. Like as if ye sent a psent unto a prince which were very pleasant unto him/ though the messenger much misliked him so far that he had been forboden the court/ yet if ye were not ware thereof/ your gift could not lose his thank/ but his malapert boldness might peradventure be punished and well were worthy to be. But on the other side if ye knew the messenger for such as the prince would not have come at him/ ye would rather keep your present at home and forbear the thank/ than wittingly to send it by such ● menssenger/ or else though your present were very great/ your thank would be very little. And surely in like manner wise who so surely knoweth a pressed to be naught/ vicious/ and in deadly displeasure of god/ should get I think little thank if he mad● him say mass. And therefore well shall the prelates do/ as much as they may to provide/ that god shall rather be more seldom presented with the pleasant present of the mass/ than more often offended with a dyspleasaunte messenger. And verily were all the bishops of my mind (as I know some that be) ye should not of presties have the plenty that y● have. The time hath been when there were very few in a great city/ and in a monastery of five hundred in one house/ scantly would there four monks be bold to be presties. Than was all holy orders in high honour. Than find we that the degree of a de●en was a great thing and of such dignity/ that when one of them went sometime in pilgrimage/ he would not be acknown of his order/ because he would not that folk should do him worship in the way. But as for now a days if he be de●● and pressed to/ he shall need to fere no such pride/ but rather rebuke and villainy. which though it have happened by the lack of virtue among them/ and decay of devotion among us/ yet hath much of all this gear grown by the mean of so great a number of presties & so familiar among us. which thing needs must minish on our part reverence and estimation toward them/ which we never have but in things rare & scarce. Gold would we not set by if it were as comen as chalk or clay. And whereof is there now such plenty as of presties? ¶ In faith q he there is more plenty of presties than of good men/ & there be to many but if they were better chosen. ¶ Doubtless q I there would be more diligence used in the choice/ not of their learning only/ but much more specially of their living. For with out virtue the better they be learned the worse they be/ saving that learning is good store against god send them grace to mend. Which else it would be than happily to late to look for/ specially if the proverb were true that ye spoke of/ that if a pressed be good than he is old. But this is a very surety that it is not well possible to be without many very nought of that company/ whereof there is such a maygne multitude. The time was as I say/ when few men durst presume to take upon them the high office of a pressed/ not even when they were chosen and called there unto. Now runneth every rascal and boldly offereth himself for able. And where the dignity passeth all princes/ and they that lewd be/ desireth it for worldly winning/ yet cometh that sort thereto with such a made mind/ that they ●eken almost god much bound to them that they vouchsafe to take it. But were I pope. ¶ By my soul quoth he I would ye were/ and my lady your wife popesse to. ¶ Well q I than should she devise for nuns. And as for me touching the choice of presties/ I would not well devise better provisions than are by the laws of the church provided all ready/ if they were as well kept as they be well made. But for the number/ I would surely see such a way therein/ that we should not have such a rabble/ that every mean man must have a pressed in his house to wait upon his wife/ which no man all most lacketh now/ to the contempt of priesthood in as vile office as his horse keeper. ¶ That is quod he troth in deed and in worse to/ for they keep haukꝭ and doggys'. And yet me seemeth surely a more honest service to wait on an horse than on a dog. And yet I suppose if the laws of the church which Luther and Tyndall would have all broken were all well observed and kept/ this gear should not be thus/ but the number of presties would be much mynyss●ed and the remanaunt much the better. For it is by the laws of the church provided to the intent no pressed should unto the slander of prestehedde be driven to live in such lewd manner or worse/ there should none be admitted unto priesthood/ until he have a title of a sufficient yearly living/ either of his own patrimony or other wise. Nor at this day they be none otherwise accepted. ¶ Why quoth he wherefore go there than so many of them a begging? ¶ Marry quoth I for they delude the law and themself also. For they never have gr●unt of a living that may serve them in sight for the purpose/ but they secretly discharge it ere they have it/ or else they cold not get it. And thus the bishop is blinded by the sight of the writing/ & the pressed goth a begging for all his grant of a good living/ and the law is deluded/ and the order is rebuked by the presties begging and lewd living/ which either is fain to walk at rovers and live upon trentals or worse/ or else to serve in a secular man's house/ which should not need if this gap were stopped. For ye should have presties few enough if the law were truly observed that none were made/ but he that were without colusyon sure of a living all ready. ¶ Than might it h●p quoth he that ye might have to few to serve the romys and lyvyngys' that be provided for them except/ the prelates would provide that orders were not so commonly given/ but always receive in to orders as romys & lyvyngꝭ fall void to bystowe them in and no faster. ¶ ●●rely quoth I for aught I see suddenly/ that would not be much amiss. For so should they need no such titles at all nor should need neytheyr run at rovers/ nor live in lay men's houses/ by reason whereof there groweth among no little corruption in the presties manners/ by the conversation of lay people & company of women in their houses. ¶ Nay by our lady quoth he I will not agree with you therein. For I think they can not lightly meet with much worse company than themself/ and that they rather corrupt us than we them.   

¶ The xiii chapter.  
¶ The messenger moveth that it would do well that presties should have wifes whereunto the author maketh answer.  
BUt I would ween it would amend myth part of this matter/ if they might have wifes of their own ¶ Marry q I so saith luther & Tyndal also/ saving that they go somewhat ferther forth. For Tyndall (whose books be nothing else in effect but the worst heresies piked out of Luther's works/ & Luther's worst words translated by Tyndall/ & put forth in tyndal's own name) doth in his frantic book of obedience (wherein he raileth at large against all pope's/ against all kings against all prelates/ all pres●ꝭ/ all religious/ all the laws/ all the saints/ against the sacraments of Crystis church/ all against virtuous workys'/ against all divine service/ and finally against all thing in effect the good is) in that book I say Tyndal holdeth the prestis must have wy●ys. And that he groundeth wisely upon the words of saint Poule/ where he writeth to Thimotheus/ Oportet episcopum esse irreprehensibilem unius vxo●is virum. That a bishop must be a man unreprovable/ and the husband of one wife. And that it must be considered whether he have well brought up his children/ and well governed his household. By these words doth Tyndall after Luther conclude for a plain matter/ that presties must needs have wy●es/ and that saint Poule would there should in no wise be none other presties but married folk. Is it not now a wonder with what spectacles Luther and Tyndall have spied this thing now in these words of saint paul. In which of so many great connyng●●●thers and holy saints as have often red/ and deeply considered those words before/ there was never none that had either the wit or the grace to perceive that great special commandment this xu C. year/ till now the god hath at last by revelation showed this high secret mystery to these ii goodly creatures Luther and Tyndall/ lest that holy frere should have lost his marriage of that holy nun/ and Tyndall some good marriage that I think him toward. Tyndal nothing answereth in his book to that point/ but runneth and raileth over without reason/ and saith that the scripture is plain therein for him. And ever he passeth over as thouh he herd it not that all the holy doctors that ever were in Crystis church/ sayen that the scripture which he allegeth to be very plain for him/ is very plain against him as it is in deed. For saint paul in that place/ for as much as yet at that time except none but young men should have been prestis/ which he thought not commonly convenient/ else could they make no presties then/ but such as either were or had been married/ therefore th'apostle having in the choice of presties a special respect to chastity/ and willing to go as ●ere to no wife as might be/ did ordain as god had instructed him/ that who so ever should be admitted to presth●d/ should be the husband of one wife. Meaning such as then had or before had had no more but one/ & that never had had twain. He meaned not as mad Luther & Tyndall would now make the world so ●●d to believe that a priest must needs ha●e one/ nor that he may never lac●e one/ nor that he may have one after a nothe●/●or the only forbyddyn● of twain at once/ but he meant only that none should be admitted to presthed but only such a man as never had had nor should have but only one. which is the thing that ever was & hath been by those words understanden. And not only where saint paul taught/ but also thorough christendom/ where the other apostles planted the faith/ hath it ever been so observed. Which is a plain proof that concerning the prohibition/ of any more wifes then one/ and the forbydi●g of bygamy by the wedding of one wife after another/ was the special ordinance of god/ and of saint paul. whose epistles wherein he writeth any thing of this matter/ was peradventure not comen to the hands of other apostles/ when they took yet the same order by the same spirit that taught it him. For this is certain that ever & every where in christendom the bygamy of two wives each after other/ hath been a let and impediment against the the taking of holy orders/ and hath of long time been a let/ though the ●one wife had been married and buried before the man's baptism. And now these two wise men against the old holy fathers and cunning doctors/ & against the continual custom of Crystis church so many hundred years begined/ and continued by the spirit of god/ have spied at last the saint paul saith and meaneth that a pressed may mary iwyse & have one wife after another and that he must so have. For by Tyndall a priest must ever have one wife at the lest. And surely if we leave the true understanding of saint Powlys' words and believe Tyndall/ that it is there meant and commanded because of this word 〈◊〉/ that a priest must have one/ then may Tyndall as for the place tell us that a priest is at liberty to have twain at once or twenty and he will/ because saint paul saith no more but that the bishop must be the husband of one wife. Which words Tyndall may tell us be verified/ if he be the husband of ten wifes. For the husband of ten wifes were the husband of one/ as the father of ten children is the father of one/ if the wifes were as compatyble as the children be/ as it is no doubt but Luther and Tyndall would soon make them by scripture/ if their own interpetacyon may be taken for authority/ against the perceiving that god hath given to all good christian people this xu C. year Now as I say upon Tyndals taking saint Poule should men●● not that a pressed should have b●t one wife (for that but is not ●●aint Powlꝭ wo●dꝭ) but he should mean that a pressed must have one at the le●●e/ as though saint Poule had liefer that the pressed had twenty sa●e for overcharging. Yet it seemeth that Tyndall so take it in deed/ and that a pressed might have divers wives at once/ specially for the great reason that he setteth thereto. For where as saint Poule sith there was at that ●yme little choice to make prestis of but married men/ willed therefore that in the choice of the bishop there should be considered how he had governed his own howsehold/ because he that had mystatched his wife and his children/ were unmeet for a great cure/ therefore saith Tyndal that never should there any priest be made/ but but such as hath a wife and children & by the governance of them showed/ that he is meet to bear a rule/ as though we never saw any man that never had wife/ govern an household better th●̄ many that have had five. And if the having & good ruling of a wife be so special a proof of a man meet to be a pressed as Tyndall taketh it/ then sith saint paul after Tyndals' interpretation can not appear to forbid the having of divers wives together/ best were it after Tyndall specially to make that man a priest that had many wives and all at once/ and many children by each of them/ if he guide them all well. For more proof is it of a wise governor to rule well five wives/ than one/ & forty children then four. But now that every child may see the wisdom of Tyndall and his master Luther in the construction of holy scripture/ whereof he speaketh so much and understandeth so little/ I beseech you consyderlyke words of saint paul in a much like matter. Saint paul as he writeth to Thimotheus that a bishop must be the husband of one wife/ so writeth he also to him/ that no widow should be specially chosen and taken in to be founden of the goods of the church that were younger than lx year/ and that she should be one that had been the wife of one husband. Now set these two ●e●●ys together of the bishop and the widow/ and consider the words of one wife in the tone/ and one husband in the t'other/ if we shall after Tyndal take the tone words for the bishop/ that saint paul should mean not that he have or have had but one wife/ but that he must needs have one wife/ than must we likewise take the words spoken by saint paul of the widow/ as though saint paul should mean not a widow which had never had more than one husband/ but a widow that had had one husband/ as though saint Poule had nothing feared nor forbade/ but lest Timotheus should take in such a widow as never had no husband at all. Were not this wisely construed? Now if Tyndall will agree as he needs must but if he be mad/ that saint paul in giving commandment that the widow should be such as had had one husband/ meant thereby such one as never had had more than one/ them must he needs grant and his master Luther to/ that saint paul in likewise where he said that a bishop must be a good man and the husband of one wife/ meant that he must never have nor have had any more than one. And not that he must needs have one/ or that he must have one at the lest/ and might have many more than one/ either each after other or all together and he list. And in this matter hath Tyndall no shyfte● For sith this word one in one wife and one husband/ was not by saynt● Poule set in for nought. It must nedis signify either that there should be no more but one/ or that there should be one at the least. If he should mean that a bishop should have one wife at the le●te/ and that the widow should h●ue had one husband at the lest/ than would he rather that they should have more than so few/ which every man seeth how foolish that construction is. Now if Tyndall will say that by this word one/ saint paul meant there should be but one wife at once and one husband at once/ than did saint paul so speak of the bishop as though he had said/ a bishop must be a good man and have but one wife at onis. In which words Tyndall had lost his purpose. For so were only a prohibition for any more than one/ and no commandment but a bare permission for one. And yet were it little to purpose/ for in saint Poulys' days a lay man had but one wife at once. And the folly of this construction appeareth in the words spoken of saint Poule in the choice of the widow/ wherein Tyndall would by this way make saint Poule to say thus. Take & ●hese in but such a widow as hath had but one husband at once/ as though the guise were in his days that wifes might have two husbands at once. ¶ In faith quoth your friend I think saint paul meant not so. For then had wifes been in his time little better than grass widows be now. For they be yet as several as a barber's chair/ & never take but one at onis. ¶ In faith quoth I the folly of such folk doth well appear that seek in the scripture of god such new constructions against the very sense that god hath this xu C. year so taught his hole church/ that never was there pope so covetous yet the durst dispense in this point/ seeing the consent of Crysties church so full and hold there in/ and the mind of saint Poule so clear to suffer only one with utter exclusyon of any more than one/ that who so ever would constrew him other wise/ must nedys' fall in to such open follies as Tyndall & Luther do. And thus ye see how substantially Tyndal and his master construe the scripture/ & with what authority they conferm● this noble new doctrine of theirs/ b● which they would condemn all Crystendom as brekers of the law of god/ as long as they suffer not any pressed take a wife/ or rather as long as they suffer him to be without a wife. For wives they must needs have by Tyndals' tale whither they will or no. ¶ By my troth quoth your friend if Tyndall & Luther have none other hold than that place of saint poule/ they be likely to take a fall. But I think they say more than that. ¶ Surely quoth I Tyndall hath another reason in deed. He saith that chastity is an exceeding seledome gift/ and unchastyte exceeding perilous for that estate. And thereon he concludeth that presties must needs have wives. But now what if a man would deny him though chastity be a great gift/ that yet it is a seledome gift. For though it be rare and seledome in respect of the remanaunte of the people that have it not/ yet is it not seledome in deed/ for many men have it. And christ saith the all men take it not/ but he saith not that no man taketh it/ nor that few men take it. And highly he commendeth them that for his sake do take it. What inconvenience is it than to take in to his special service men of that sort that he most specially commendeth? Or if we granted to Tyndal that few men can live chaste/ which is plain false (for many hath done & doth) but now if we did I say grant him that thing/ though he might peradventure thereupon conclude/ that there should not be so many presties made and bounden to chastity as could not live chaste/ yet could he not conclude as he now concludeth/ that no pressed should be suffered to live chaste/ but that every pressed must needs have a wife. For this is his argument. Few men can live chaste/ ergo every priest must take a wife. If we should impugn the form of this argument/ Tyndall would rail and say we meddle with sophistry/ and wise men would say we were Idly occupied to labour to show that folly the so evidently showeth it self. And therefore we shall let hi● wise argument alone/ sith it su●●yseth us that every man that any wit hath/ may well see that upon his unreasonable reason/ one of two thyngiss must needs follow/ either that christ in commending perpetual chastity/ did commend a thing not commendable/ or else if every priest must needs have a wife/ than were it not lawful to make a priest of that sort that is of godis own mouth commended. ¶ Surely quod your friend me think they go far therein to say the prestis must nedis have wives. But me think that this they might well say and I to/ that it is not well done to bind them with a law/ that they shall have none/ but it may be well done to suffer them have wives that would as they have in wales. And I here say that in Allmaygne they find great case therein. For like as here the good wife keepeth her husband from her maydys'/ so there the persons wife keepeth her husband from all the wifes in the pary●he. ¶ As for wales quoth I ye be wrong informed/ for wyuysha●e they not. But troth it is the incōty●ēte is there in some place little looked unto/ whereof mythe harm groweth in the country. And as for Allmaygne such part thereof as that is used in/ which is only where Luther's sect is received/ who so consider well what commodity hath cummen to them by such ungodly ways/ I think shall have no great fantysye to follow them. ¶ Well quoth he let wales and Allmaygne go/ yet prestis had wifes of old when they were better than they be now. And yet have in grece where they be better than they be here. ¶ As for the presties of gre●e I will not dispraise them quod I/ for I know them not. But somewhat was not well there/ that god hath suff●ed all that empire to fall in to heathen men's hands. And yet be they not there so lose as ye taken them. For though a wedded man taken there in to the clergy be not nor can be put from his wife/ but is there suffered to minister in the office of a pressed not withstandynge his marriage/ yet if he be unmarried at the time that he taketh priesthood/ be than professeth perpetual continence/ and never marrieth after/ as I have learned by such as have comen from thence. ¶ Now where ye speak of old time/ surely ye shall understand that there married not so many as y● would happily ween. ¶ Peradventure quoth he no more there would now. Some of them would have no wifes though the law were set at large. For as a good fellow said once to his friends the marvelled why he married not/ and thought him unnatural if he cared not for the company of a woman/ he said unto them that he had liefer lose a finger than lack a woman. But he had liefer lack the hole hand than have a wife. So if the presties were at liberty/ some of the worst sort would yet I ween rather have women than wyuꝭ. But other that would be more honest/ would I suppose be married. And yet would some peradventure live in perpetual continence as few do now. ¶ God forbid q I. ¶ Well q he they that would/ were not restrained. But if I shall be bold to say what I thyn●/ it seemeth me surely a very hard thing that the church should make a law to bind a ● man to chastity magry his te●he/ to which god would never bind any man. ¶ The church quoth I bindeth no man to chastity. ¶ That is troth q he except a pressed be a man. ¶ ye miss take the matter quod I as I shall show you after. ¶ There would quod he many ha●mys be avoided/ & much good would there grow thereof/ if they might have wifes that would. ¶ What good or harm quoth I would come thereof the proof would show/ wherein we might be the more bold to trust well/ were it not that we now find it nought in Saxony where we newly see it assayed. And as for that ye spoke of old time when the presties were better/ surely as I would if ye had not stopped me have said ferther before. we perceive well by the writers of old time/ that of those good men very few were married. And none in effect after that office taken. And many such as had wifes before/ willingly with their wifes ass●nte forbate the carnal use of them. And sith the good or harm growing of the matter best appeareth by the proof/ beside thexperience that we have now in Saxony where this change is begun with an infinite heap of heresies/ it is ethe to see that the good fathers which gave their advice to the maky●ge of that law/ with the thing almost received in general custom before/ and with the consent of all christendom in effect that ratefyed and received it after/ had a good ꝓfe thereof/ and found this the be●te way before the law made/ and there fore I will not dispute with you thereupon. But for as much as ye lay unreasonableness to their charge that made it/ because they bind men as ye ●eken against their will to chastity/ somewhat were it th●t ye say/ if the church compelled any man to be pressed. But now when 〈◊〉ry mā●s at his lyb●●te n●t to be priest bu● at this pleasure/ 〈◊〉 can any 〈◊〉 say that the church layeth a b●●●nde of chastity in any mannysn●●●● against his will? The church doth in effect 〈◊〉 ferther but prouyd●/ that where as m●̄ will of their own minds some live ch●st and some will not/ the myny●●●●● of the sacrament shall be taken of th●t sort only/ that will be conte●t to professed chastity. wherewith whoso findeth fault/ blameth not only the clergy but also the temp●ralyte/ which be and have been all this while 〈◊〉 in the auth●ryte of the 〈◊〉 and conservation of this l●we. 〈◊〉 of there can no m●n bla●e the 〈◊〉 zion/ but if he be tyth●●in that 〈◊〉 that he think that the 〈…〉 is no more pleasant to g●● 〈…〉 the presties of the temple for the tym● of their ministration for●●re their own h●use and the company of their wy●ys. And therefore they s●r●●d the temple by course/ as it well appeareth in the beginning of saint Lu●ys gospel. So the ch●styte was thought both to god and man a thing m●●e and convenient for presties/ amon● them which most magnified carnal generation. And th●n how much more specially now to the pre●●ys of christ/ which was b●the borne of a virgin/ and lived ● dyed●●●rgyn himself/ and exhorted all his to the same? whose counsel i● th●t point ●ythe some be content to follow and 〈◊〉 to live otherwise/ wh●t w●y w●re I say more meetly th●n to take in to Crysties temple to serve about th● sacrament/ only such as be of that s●r●● that ar● content and minded to 〈…〉 order of the church therein be better than the contrary/ good men and wise men both had the proof of both before the law made/ & it well allowed thorough christendom long time sins. Which ere I would assent to change/ I would see a better author thereof/ than such an heretic as Luther/ and Tyndall/ & a better sample than the seditious and scysmatyque presties of Saxony. ¶ Surely quoth he ye have well declared the church touching that law. But what so ever the cause be/ by my troth nought they be/ and as far worse than we/ as they be bound to be better/ and yet be we the worse for them. ¶ There be quod I many right good among them/ and else were it wrong● with us. And many be there bad also/ and some the worse for us. But whither part is the better or the worse/ will I not dispute. But this will I say that it were best that they thought themself the worse/ and we ourself/ and every man himself 〈◊〉. ¶ I would that we were all in 〈◊〉 with our own ●●●tys as my father saith that we 〈◊〉 with our wifes. For wh●n 〈…〉 folk blame wyuy● and say that the●● be so many of them shrews/ he saith that they dy●●ame them falsely. For he saith plainly that there is but one ●●●ewde wife in the world/ but he saith in deed that every man weeneth he hath been/ and that the 〈◊〉 is his own. So would I fain that ●u●ry man would ween there were 〈◊〉 one man naught in all the hole 〈◊〉 and that 〈…〉 himself. And that he would thervppō●o about to 〈◊〉 that one● and th●● would all 〈…〉. which t●●ng we should shortly 〈◊〉 if we would 〈…〉 our w●le●/ that I told you of/ and the ●●gge with other folks faults cast at our ba●ke/ and cast the bag that beareth our own faults cast it once by●●●e us at our breast. It would be a goodly brooch for us to look on ou●e own faults another while. And I dare boldly say/ both they & we should much the better amend/ if we were so ready each to pray for other/ as we be ready to seek each others reproach and rebuke. ¶ In faith quoth he I trow that b●●●ue and pray god we so may.   

¶ The xiiii chapter.  
¶ The author answereth the dou●e moved before in the xi chapter/ concerning the constitution provincial/ and that the clergy is therein 〈◊〉 fro the f●●t that is imputed to cleym ●n that point/ showing also ●●at the clergy hath not forboden 〈◊〉 bible to be made and red in 〈◊〉.  
〈…〉 virtuous and well learned men translated in to thenglish tongue/ and by good and godly people with devotion and soberness well and reverently red/ took upon him of a malicious purpose to translate it of new. In which translation he purposely corrupted that holy text/ maliciously plantyng therein such words/ as might in the readers ears serve to the proof of such heresies as he went about to sow/ which he not only set forth with his own translation of the bible/ but also with certain prologes and glosses which he made thereupon. And these things he so handled (which was no great mastery) wy●h reasons probable and likely to lay people & unlearned/ that he corrupted in his time many folk in this ream. And by other ill books which he made in latin being after borne in to Boheme & there taught by Iohn hus & other/ he was th'occasion of the utter subversion of that hole ream both in faith and good living/ with the loss also of many a thousand lives. And as he began again the old heresies of those ancient heretics whom & whose errors the church of christ had condemned and subdued many divers agys' afore/ so doth Luther again begin to set up his. For all that he hath in effect/ he hath of him. Saving that lest he should seem to say nothing of his own/ he added some things of himself of such manner sort/ as there was never heretic before his days/ neither so wicked that he would for sin/ nor so foolish that he durst for shame write/ say/ or I trow think the like. ¶ I long quoth he to bear some of them/ for the man is taken for wiser than to mean so madly as men bear him in hand. ¶ Well quoth I that shall we see soon when we come thereto. But for our present purpose/ after that it was perceived what harm the people took by the translation/ prologys' and glosys of Wyclyff●/ and also of some other that after him holp to set forth his sect/ than for the cause/ and for as much as it is dangerous to translate the text of scripture out of one tongue in to another as holy saint Hierom testifieth/ for as much as in translation it is hard alwai to keep the same sentence hole●yt was I say for these causes at a counsel holden at Oxenford/ provided upon great pain that no man should from thence forth translate in to th●nglysh tongue or any other language of his own authoryte●by way of book/ libel/ or tretyce/ nor no man openly or secretly any such book/ libel/ or tretyce read newly made in the time of the said johan wyclyffe or synnies/ or that should be made any time after/ till the same translation were by the dyocesane/ or if need should so require by a provincial counsel approved. And this is the law that so many so long have spoken of/ & so few have in all the while wrought to seek whither they say troth or no. For I trow that in this law ye see no thing unreasonable. For it neither forbiddeth the translations to be red that were all ready well done of old before Wyclyffys' days/ nor dampneth his because it was new/ but because it was nought/ nor prohibiteth new to be made/ but provideth that they shall not be red if they be miss made/ till they be by good examination amended/ except they be such translations as wyclyf made & Tindal/ that the malicyous mind of the translator had in such wise handled it as it were labour lost to go about to mend them ¶ I long by my troth quoth he & even sit on thorns/ till I see that constitution. For not myself only but every man else hath ever taken it far otherwise/ that ever I have herd spoken thereof till now. But surely I will see it myself ere I sleep. ¶ Ye shall be sooner eased q I. For I can not suffer to see you sit so long on thorns. And therefore ye shall see it by and by.  
¶ And therewith I fet him forth the constytutions provincial with lynwood thereupon/ and turned him to the place in the title de magistris. which when himself had red/ he said he marveled mich how it happened that in so plain a matter men be ●o far abused/ to report it so far wrong. ¶ This groweth quoth I partly by malice/ partly by sloth and negligence/ in the folk be more glad to believe and tell forth a thing that may sown to the dispraise of the clergy/ than to search and be sure whither they say true or no.   

¶ The xu chapter.  
¶ The messenger moveth against the clergy/ that though they have made no law thereof/ yet they will in deed suffer non english bible in no mamnꝭ hand/ but use to burn them where they find them/ and sometime to to burn the man to. And for ensample he layeth one Richard hun/ showing that the chancellor of London murdered him in prison and after hanged him/ feigning that he hanged himself/ & after condemned him of heresy/ because he had an english bible/ & so burned the bible & him together whereunto the author answereth I Suppose quod he that this opinion is rather grown another way/ that is to wit by the reason that the clergy though the law serve them not therefore/ do yet in deed take all translations out of every lay mannꝭ hand. And sometime with those that be burned or conuycted of heresy/ they burn the english bible without respect/ be the translation old or new/ bad or good. ¶ Forsooth quoth I if this were so/ than were it in my mind not well done. But I believe ye mistake it. How be it what ye have seen I can not say. But myself have seen and can show you byblys fair and old written in english/ which have been known & seen by the bishop of the diocese/ and left in lay men's hands and women's to such as he knew for good and catholic folk/ that used it with devotion and soberness. But of troth all such as are founden in the hands of heretics/ they use to take away But they do cause none to be burned as far as ever I cold wit/ but only such as be founden fawtye. Where of many be set forth with evil prologys' or glosys maliciously made by wyclyf & other heretics. For no good man would I ween be so mad to burn up the bible/ wherein they found no fault/ nor on law that letted it to be looked on & red. ¶ Marry quoth he but I have herd good men say that even here in London not many yeries ago/ in the days of the bishop that last died/ they burned up as fair bybles in english as any man hath lightly seen/ and thereto as faultless for thirteenth that any man cold find/ as any bible is in latin. And yet bysydies this they burned up the deed body of the man himself/ whom themself had hanged in the bishops prison before/ making as though the man had hanged himself. And of the burning of his body had they no colour/ but only because they found english bybles in his house. Wherein they never found other fault/ but because they were english. ¶ who told you this tale quoth I? ¶ Forsooth divers honest men quoth he that saw it/ and special one that saw the man hanging in the bishops prison ere he was cut down. And he told me that it was well and clearly proved/ that the chancellor & his keepers had killed the man first/ and than hanged him after. And that they had laid heresy to him only for hatred that he sued a pmunyre against divers persons/ for a suit taken about a mortuary in the audience of the archbishop of canterbury. And than they proved the heresy by nothing else/ but by the possession of a good english bible. And upon heresy so proved against him whom they had hanged/ lest he should say for himself/ they burned up the holy scripture of god/ and the body of a good man therewith. For I have herd him called a very honest person and of a good substance. ¶ Forsooth quoth I of good substance he was I think well worth a. M. markys. And of his worldly conversation among the people I have herd non harm. But surely as touching his faith toward christ/ me thinketh I may be bold to say that he was not honest. And as touching troth in words/ he that hath told you this tale was not so honest in deed as me thinketh ye take him for. ¶ Why q he do ye know the matter well? ¶ Forsooth q I so well I know it from top to too/ that I suppose there be not very many men that know it much better. For I have not only been divers times present myself at certain examinations thereof/ but have also divers and many times sunderly talked with almost all such except the ded man himself/ as most known of the matter. which matter was many times in sundry placies examined. But specially at Baynardys castle one day was it examined at great length/ and by a long time every man being sent for before/ & ready there all that could be founden that any thing could tell or that had said they could any thing tell in the matter. And this examination was had before divers great lords spiritual and temporal and other of the king's honourable counsel/ sent thither by his highness for the nonies of his blessed zeal and princely desire borne to the searching of the truth. Whereunto his gracious mind was much inclined/ & had been by a right honourable man informed/ that there was one had showed a friend of his that he could go take him by the sleeve that killed Hunne/ for Richard hun was his name whom ye speak of. I was also myself psent at the judgement given in Powlys/ where upon his books & his body were burned. And by all these things I very well know/ that he of whom ye have h●rd this matter/ hath told you talys far from the troth. ¶ In good faith q your friend/ he told me one thing that ye speak of now/ that there was one that said he cold go take him by the sleeve that killed Hun/ and that he did so in deed before the lords/ and came even there to the chancellor and said my lords this is he. But when he was asked how he knew it/ he confessed that it was by such and unlawful craft 〈◊〉 was not taken for a proof. For it was they say by necromancy And the bishops that were there would have had the man burned to for witchcraft. And told me also that there was another which had seen many men that had hanged themself/ a man that had been long in office under divers of the king's almoygners/ to whom the goods of such men as killed themself be appointed by the law/ and his office/ as deodandes to be given in almose This man as I have herd say/ showed unto the lords by such experience as he had good and plain tokens/ by which they perceived well that Hun did never hang himself. I have herd also that a spiritual man and one that loved well the chancellor/ and was a labourer for that part/ yet could not deny before all the lords but that he had told a temporal man and a friend of his/ that Hun had never been accused of heresy if he had never sued the premunyre. And by saint Mary that was a shrewd word. How be it in deed it went not so near the matter as the other two things did. ¶ Yes in good faith quoth I all three like near when they were all herd. But of troth many other things were there laid/ that upon the hearing seemed much more suspycyouse than these. Which yet when they were answered/ always lost more than half their strength. But as for these three matters I promise you proved very trifles/ and such as if ye had herd them ye would have laughed at them seven year after. ¶ I beseech you quoth he let me here how they proved. ¶ I am loath quoth I to let you and lose your time in such trifles. How be it sith ye long so sore therefore/ rather than ye shield lose your child for them/ ye shall have them all three as shortly as I can. first ye must understand that because the coming together of the lords from Grenewych to Baynardꝭ castle for the trying out of the matter should not be frustrate/ there was such diligence done before/ that every man that aughte had said therein/ was ready there against their coming. where they began with the first point that ye spoke of/ as the special motion whereupon the king's highness had sent them thither. Wherefore after the rehearsal made of the cause of their coming/ the greatest temporal lord there present said unto a certain servant of his own standing there bysyde/ sir ye told me the one showed you that he could go take him by the sleeve that killed Hūne● have ye brought him hither? Sir q he if it like your lordship this man it was y● told me so/ pointing to one that he had caused to come thither. Than my lord asked that man how say ye sir can ye do as ye said ye could? Forsooth my lord quoth he and it like your lordsshyp I said not so much/ this gentleman did somewhat mys●e take me. But in deed I told him that I had a neighbour that told me that he cold do it. Where is that neighbour quoth my lord? This man sir quoth he/ bringing forth one which had also be warned to be there. Than was he asked whither he had said that he could do it. Nay forsooth quoth he my lord I said not that I cold do it myself/ but I said y● one told me that he could do it. Well q my lord who told you so? Forsooth my lord quoth he my neighbour here. Than was the man asked. Sir know you one that can tell who killed Hun? Forsooth quoth he and it like your lordship I said not that I knew one surely that could tell who h●d killed him/ but I said in deed th●t I know one which I thought verily could tell who killed him. Well quoth the lord at last yet with much work we come to somewhat. but whereby thyn● you that he can tell? Nay forsooth my lord q he it is a woman/ I would she were here with your lordshyppis now. Well q my lord woman or man all is one/ she shall be had where so ever she be. By my faith my lord q he & she were with you she would tell you wonders. For by god I have wist her tell many maruylouse things ere now. Why q the lords what have you herd her told? For so●h my lord quoth he if a thing h●d been stolen/ she would have told who h●d it/ and therefore I think she could as well tell who killed Hun as who stolen an horse. Surely said the lords so think all we to I trow. But how could she tell it by the devil? Nay by my troth I trow quoth he/ for I could never see her use any worse way than looking in once hand. Therewith the lords laughed and asked what is she. Forsooth my lord quoth he an egyp●yan/ and she was lodged even here at Lambeth/ but she is gone over see now. How be it I trow she be not in her own country/ yet for they say it is a great way hence/ and she went over little more than a month ago. ¶ Now forsooth q your friend this process came to a wise purpose/ here was a great post well thywted to a Pudding prick. But I pray you to what point came the second matter of him th●t had been in office under so many of the king's almoygners/ that he knew by his own experience & proved that Hunne h●d not hanged himself? ¶ Forsooth q I he was called in next. And than was he asked whereby he knew it. But would god ye had seen his countenance. The man had of likelihood said somewhat to far & was much amazed/ & looked as though his eyen would have fallen out of his head in to the lords lappies. But to the question he answered and said/ that he saw the very well/ for he saw him both ere he was taken down & after. What than q the lords so did there many more/ which yet upon the sight could not tell that. No my lords quoth he but I have another in sight insuche things than other men have. What in sight quod they? Forsooth q he it is not unknown that I have occupied a great while under divers of the king's almoygnyers/ & have seen & considered many that have hanged themself/ & thereby if I see one hang I can tell anon whither he hanged himself or not. By what token can you tell quod the lords? Forsooth quoth he I can not tell the tokens/ but I perceive it well enough by mine own sight. But when they herd him speak of his own sight/ and therewith saw what sight he had/ looking as though his eyen would have fallen in their lappꝭ/ there could few forbear laughing/ and said we see well surely that ye have a sight by yourself. And than said one lord merrily/ peradventure as ●om man is s● cunning by experience of jewels that he can perceive by his own eye why●●er a stone be right or counterf●te thought he can not well make another man to perceive the tokens/ so this good fellow thowghe he can not tell us the marks/ yet hath such an experience in hanging/ that himself perceiveth upon the sight/ whither the man hanged himself or no. Ye forsooth my lord quoth he ever as your lordysshyp saith. For I know it well enough myself/ I have seen so many by reason of mine office. Why quoth another lord merrily your office hath no more experience in hanging than hath an hangman. And yet he can not tell. Nay sir q he and it like your lordship he meddleth not with them that hang themself as I do. Well q one of the lords how many of them have ye meddled with in your days? With many my lord quoth he/ for I have been office under two almoygners and therefore I have seen many. How many quoth one of the lords? I can not tell quod he how many/ but I wot well I have seen many. Have ye seen quoth one an hundred? Nay quoth he not an hundred. Have ye seen four score and ten? thereat a little he studied as one standing in a doubt and that were loath to lie and at last he said/ that he thought nay not fully four score & ten. Than was he asked whither he hath seen twenty. And thereto without any stycking he answered nay not twenty. Thereat the lords lawhged well to see that he was so sure that he had not seen twenty/ and was in doubt whither he had seen four score and ten. Than was he asked why there he had seen xu And thereto he said shortly nay/ And in likewise of ten. And last they came to five/ & fro five to four. And there he began to study again. Than came they to three/ & than for shame he was fain to say that he had seen so many & more to. But when he was asked/ when/ whom/ & in what place/ necestyte drove him at last unto the troth/ whereby it appeared that he never had seen but one in all his life. And that was an yrysh fellow called croak shank whom he had seen hanging in an old bar●e. And when all his cunning was come to this/ he was bad walk like himself. And one said unto him that because he was not yet cunning enough in the craft of hanging/ y● was pity that he had no more experience thereof by one more. ¶ Forsooth q your friend this was a mad fellow. Came the third tale to as wise a point? ¶ Ye shall here quoth I. The temporal man that had reported it upon the mouth of the spiritual man/ was a good worshipful man/ and for his truth and worship was in great credit. And surely the spiritual man was a man of worship also/ & well known both for cunning & virtuous. And therefore the lord much marveled knowing them both for such as they were/ that they should be like to find/ either the tone or the other either make an untrue report or untruly deny the troth. And first the temporal man before the lords in the hearing of the spiritual person standing by/ said/ my lordies as help me god and halydom master doctor here said unto me his own mouth/ that if Hunne had not sued the premunyre he should never have been accused of heresy. How say you master doctor quoth the lords was the true or else why said ye so? Surely my lords quoth he I said not all thing so/ but ma●y this I said in deed/ that if Hunne had not been accused of heresy/ he would never have sued the premunyre. Lo my lords q the t'other I am glad ye find me a true man. Will ye command me any more service? Nay by my troth q one of the lord not in this matter/ by my will ye may go when ye will. For I have espied good man so that words be ●l one it maketh no matter to you which way they stand/ but all is one to you a horse mill & a mill horse/ dinke ere ye go & go e●e ye drink. Nay my lords quoth h● I will not drink dod yield you. And therewith he made courtesy & went his way/ leaving some of the lords laughing to see the good plain old honest man/ how that as contrary as their two tallies were/ yet when he herd them both again/ he marked no difference between them/ but took them both for one/ because the words were one. By my truth q your friend these three things came merrily to pass/ and I would not for a good thing but I had herd them. For here may a man se that miss understanding maketh miss reporting. And a tale that ●●eeth thorough many mouths/ catcheth many new feathers/ which when they be pulled away again/ leave him as pilled as a coote and sometime as bare as a byrdys' arse. But I thyn●e verily for all this there was great evidence given against the chancellor/ for he was at length endyghted of Hunnys death/ and was a great while in prison/ and in conclusion never durst abide the trial of twelve men for his acquytayle/ but was fain by friendship to get a pardon. But I beseech you for my myndys' sake/ show me what thought yourself therein. ¶ Of troth quoth I there were diverse suspycyouse things laid against him/ and all those well and substantially answered again for him. How be it upon the telling of a tale often time happeth/ that wh●● all 〈…〉 that can be said therein/ yet shall th● 〈◊〉 some think one way and some another. And therefore though I can not think but that the jury which were right honest men/ found the verdict as themself thought in their own conscience to be truth/ yet in mine own mind for ought that eue● I herd thereof in my life as help god I could never think it. ¶ If he had not been guilty quoth your friend/ he would never have sued his pardon. ¶ Yes quoth I right wise men have I herd say ere this/ that they will never refuse neither God's pardon nor the king's. It were no wisdom in a matter of many suspycyouse tallies be they never so false/ to stand on twelve men's mouths where one may find a surer way. But I think verily that if he had been guilty/ he should never have gotten his pardon. For all be it that th●re was never I trow brought in this world a prince of more benign nature/ nor of more merciful mind/ than is our sovereign lord that now reigneth and long mo●e reign upon us/ whereby never king could find in his hart● more freely to forgive and forget offences done and committed unto himself/ yet hath his highness such a fervent affection to right & justice in other mennꝭ causes/ & such a tender zeal to the conservation of his subgectꝭ/ of whose lives his high wisdom considereth many to stand in apparel by the giving of pardon to a few wilful murderer's/ that never was there king/ I believe that ever aware the crown in this realm which hath in so many yeries given unto such fol●e so few. And therefore I make myself sure that in such a wilful purpensed 〈◊〉 cruel deed as this had been if it had been true/ all the friends that could have been founden for the chancellor in this world/ could never have gotten his pardon to pass in such wise/ had it not be that upon the report of all the cyrcumstancies/ the king high prudence which with out flattery pierceth as deep in to the bo●ome of a doubtful matter as ever I saw man in my life/ had well perceived his innocency 
And sith I veryly believe that if he had been guilty he never could have gotten in such an he●●hnous murder any pardon of the hy●●ys highness/ I dare make myself much more bold of his innocency now. For ye shall understand that he never sued pardon therefore. B●t after long examination of the matter/ as well the chancellor as other/ being endyghted of the deed & arrayned upon the entyghtement in the hy●gis bench/ pledged that they were not ●yltie. And thereupon the kyn●ys grace being well & sufficiently informed of the truth/ & of his blessed disposition not willing that there should in his name any false matter be maynt●ynyd/g●ue in commandment to his a●●●●n●y to confess their pleas to be true without ●ny farther trouble. which thing in so faithful a prince i● a clear declaration that the metre laid to the chancellor was ●urte●.  And as for myself in good faith as I told you before. I never hard in my life (and yet have I herd all I wen● that well could be said) therein any thing that moved me after both the parties heard/ to think that he should be guilty. ¶ And bysydies all this consyde●ing that Hun was (as they that well know him say he was in deed) though he were a fair dealer among his neygbours● yet a man high minded and set on the glory of a victory/ which he hoped to have in the premunyre/ whereof he much hosted as they said among his familiar friends/ that he trusted to be spoken of long after his days/ and have his matter in the y●rys and terms called Hunnys case. which when he perceived would go against his purpose/ and that in the temporal law he should not win his spurrys/ and over that in the spiritual law perceived so much of his secret sores unwrapped & discovered that he begun to fall in fere of worldly shame/ it is to me much more likely that for weariness of his life he rid himself out thereof (which manner of affection we see not seldom hap/ specially sith the devil might peradventure join therewith a malicious hope of that which after happened that the suspicion of his death myth be laid to the charge and apparel of the chancellor) this is I say much more likely to me/ than the thing whereof I never herd the like before/ that the bishops chancellor should kill in the lollardys' tower a man so sore suspect and convycte of heresy/ whereby he might bring himself in business/ where as if he hated the man (For kill him he would not ye wot well if he loved him) he might easily bring him to shame and peradventure to shameful death also.  
¶ In good faith q your friend wist I that it were true that he was an heretic in deed/ and in apparel to be so proved/ I would well think that in malice and despair he hanged himself. ¶ God quod I knoweth of all thing the troth. But what I have herd therein that shall I show you.  
¶ My self was present in Paul'S when the bysshype in the presence of the Mayre and the aldermen of the city condemned him for an heretic after his death. And then were there red openly the deposyons/ by which it was well proved that he was conuyc●e as well of diverse other heresies as of misbelieve toward the holy sacrament of the outer. And thereupon was the judgement given/ that his body should be burned/ and so was it. ¶ Now this is quoth I to me a full proof. For I assure you the bishop was a very wise man a virtuous and a cunning. ¶ By saint marry quod he the proof is the better by so much. ¶ I shall tell you quoth I another thyng●/wh●che when ye here ye shall peradventure believe it yet the better. ¶ That would I gladly know quod he. For as farer as I can here never man had him suspect of any such th●●●e before. ¶ Forsooth quoth I that can I not tell. But so it happened that as I remember six or seven year after that Hunne was thus hanged and his body burned for an heretic/ there was one in Essex a carpenter that used to make pumps/ which had intended with other such as he was himself to do great robbery/ and thereupon was he brought unto the court. Where by the commandment of the king's grace/ a great honourable estate of this realm and myself had him in examination. Wherein among other things he confessed that he had long holden divers heresies/ which he said that his brother being ● clerk of a church had taught both his father and him. And I promise you those heresies were of an height. Than he showed us what other cunning masters of that school he had herd read/ & specially in a place which he named us in London/ where he said that such heretics were wont ●o resort to their redyngys' in a chamber at midnight. And wh●n we asked him the names of them that were wont to haunt those midnight lecturis/ he rehearsed us divers/ & among other he named Richard hun. Whereof we somewhat marveled in our myndys'/ but nothing said we thereto/ but let him rehearse on all such as he could call to mind. And wh●n he stopped and could remember no●●/ than asked we of them that he had named/ what they were and where they dwelled. And he told us of some of them that were conuycted/ & some that were ●●edde/ and some that were yet at that time dwelling ●●yll in the town. And in the way when we asked him what man was that Hunne that he spoke of/ he told us his person and his house. And where is he now said we? Marry q he I went to Tourney/ and when I came thence again/ than herd I say that he was hanged in the lollardys' tower and his body burned for an heretic. And thus there learned we long after/ that Hunne had haunted heretics lectures by night long before/ which we declared unto the king's highness as he had confessed. And his highness though he was sorry that any man should be so lewd/ yet highly did rejoice that the goodness of god brought such hid mischief more and more to light. So after had we by the king's commandment that man's brother in examination/ which did in deed confess nothing/ neither of the felonies nor of the heresies. But yet his brother did abide by them and anowed them in his face/ with such marks and tokens as it might well appear that he said truth. And surely marvel were it if he would falsely have feigned such heinous things against his own brother/ his own father & himself/ being thereto nothing compelled/ nor put either in pain or fere. Now was the father deed/ and other could we not come by/ whom we might ferther examine of that night school/ saving that he which as I told you confessed this matter/ showed us also at the first time of one man in London taken for good and honest/ which was as he said a scholar also of his brother in those heresies/ which man for his honesty we forbore to meddle with/ till we should have the other brother. whom as soon we had in hands/ and that he was committed to the marshalsye/ this other man which was as I told you de●●cted unto us for an heretic and a scholar of his/ came to me to labour & sue for him/ pretending that he did it for charity. And for as much as we thought we could not fail of him when we would have him/ we forbore therefore to examine him/ till we should have examined the t'other whom he laboured for But than were we not ware in what wise we should be disappointed of him. For so misshaped it in deed/ that after his being at me to labour for him whose scholar in heresy he was detect to be/ he was in his own house suddenly stricken & slain. And that wretched end had he. What conscience he died with god knoweth/ for I can tell you no ferther. ¶ By saint Iohn quoth your friend but upon the hole tale/ it seemeth to me very clear that Hun was himself not clear of the matter. ¶ Surely quoth I so seemed it as far as I cold wit/ unto as many as ever herd it/ and would yet I ween have seemed so more clearly/ if they had been present at thexamynacyons/ and seen under what manner the man came forth therewith. ¶ But yet quoth your friend as for his english bible/ though Hun were himself an heretic/ yet might the book be good enough. And no good reason is there why a good book should be burned with an evil man. ¶ Ye call me well home quoth I/ & put me well in mind. For that was the thing whereby ye took occasion to talk of Hun/ of whom we talked so long/ that at last I had forgotten wherefore & whereupon we entered in to that communication. And yet make those bokys not a little to the matter that we had in hand/ I mean toward the perceiving what opinion that Hun was of. For surely at such time as he was denounced for an heretic/ there lay his english bible open/ and some other english books of his/ that every man might seethe placies noted with his own hand/ such Words/ and in such wise/ that there would no wise man that good were/ have any great doubt after the sight thereof/ what naughty minds the men had/ both he that so noted them/ and he that so made them. I remember not now the specyaltees of the matter/ nor the formal words as they were written. But this I remember well that besides other things framed for the favour of divers other heresies/ there were in the prologue of that bible such● words touching the blessed sacrament/ as good christian men did much abhor to here/ and which gave the readers undoubted occasion to think that the book was written after ●yclyffs copy/ and by him translated in to our tongue. And yet whither the book be burned or secretly kept I can not surely say. But truly were the clergy of my mind/ it should be some where reserved/ for the perpetual proof of the matter/ there hath gone so much suspycyous rumour therof● Which as I believe were all well answered & the mind fully satisfied o● any man that wise were & good therewith/ that once had overloked/ red/ and advisedly considered that book.   

¶ The xvi chapter.  
¶ The messenger rehearseth some causes which he hath herd laid by some of the clergy/ wherefore the scryptur● should not be suffered in english. And the author showeth his mind that it were convenient to have the bible in english. And therewith endeth the third book.  
Sir quoth your friend yet for all this can I see no cause why the clergy should keep the bible out of lay men's hands/ that can no more but their mother tongue. ¶ I had went q I that I had proved you plainly/ that they keep it not from them. For I have showed you that they keep none from them/ but such translation as be either not yet approved for good/ or such as be all ready reproved for nought/ as Wyclyffies was and Tyndals. For as for other old once/ that were before Wyclyffys days/ remain lawful/ and be in some folks hands had and red. ¶ Ye say well quoth he. But yet as women say/ somewhat it was always that the cat winked when her eye was out. Surely so is it not for nought that the english bible is in so few men's hands/ when so many would so fain have it. ¶ That is very troth q I. For I think that though the favourers of a sect of heretics be so fervent in the setting for the of their sect/ that they let not to lay their money together and make a purse among them for the printing of an evil made or evil translated book/ which though it hap to be forboden and burned yet some be sold ere they be spied/ & each of them lose but their part/ yet I think there will no printer lightly be so hot to put any bible in print at his own charge/ whereof the loss should lie hole in his own neck/ and than hang upon a doubtful trial whither the first copy of his translation was made before Wyclyffies days or synnies. For if it were made synnies/ it must be approved before the printing. And surely how it hath happened that in all this while god hath either not suffered or not provided that any good virtuous man hath had the mind in faithful wise to translate it/ and thereupon either the clergy or at the lest wise somone bishop to approve it/ this can no thing tell. But how so ever it be/ I have herd and here so much spoken in the matter/ and so much doubt made there in/ that peradventure it would let and withdraw any one bishop from the admitting thereof/ without the assent of the remanant. And where as many things be laid against it/ yet is there in my mind not one thing that more putteth good men of the clergy in doubt to suffer it/ than this that they see sometime much of the worse sort more fervent in the calling for it/ than them whom we find far better. Which maketh them to fere lest such men desire it for no good/ and lest if it were had in every man's hand/ there would great apparel arise/ and that seditious people should do more harm therewith/ than god and honest folk should take fruit thereby. Which fere I promise you no thing feareth me/ but that who so ever would of their malice or folly take harm of that thing that is of it self ordained to do all men good/ I would never for thavoiding of their harm/ take from other the profit which they might take/ and no thing deserve to lose. For else if th'abuse of a good thing should cause the taking away thereof from other that would use it well/ Cryst should himself never have been borne/ nor brought his faith in to the world/ nor god should never have made it neither/ if he should for the loss of those that would be dampened wretches/ have kept away th'occasion of reward from them that would with help of his grace endeavour them to deserve it. ¶ I am sure q your friend ye doubt not but that I am full & hole of your mind in this matter that the bible should be in our english tongue. But yet that the clergy is of the contrary and would not have it so/ that appeareth well in that they suffer it not to be so. And over that I here in every place almost where I find any learned man of them/ their myndis all set thereon to keep the scripture from us. And they seek out for the part every rotten reason that they can find/ and set them forth solemnly to the show/ though five of those reasons be not worth a fig. For they begin as far as our first father Adam/ and show us that his wife and he fell out of paradise with desire of knowledge and cunning. Now if this would serve/ it must from the knowledge & study of scripture drive every man pressed and other/ lest it drive all cut of paradise. Than say they that god taught his disciples many things apart/ because the people should not here it. And therefore they would the people should not now be suffered to read all. Yet they say ferther that it is hard to translate the scripture out of one tongue in to another/ & specially they say in to ours. which they call a tongue vulgar & barbarous. But of all thing specially they say that scripture is the food of the soul. And that the comen people be as infanties that must be fed but with milk and pap. And if we have any stronger meet it must be chammed afore by the nurse and so put in to the babies mouth. But me think though the make us all infanties/ they shall find many a shrewd brain among us/ that can perceive chalk fro cheese well enough and if they would once take us our meet in our own hand. We be not so evil toothed but that within a while they shall see us chamme it ourself as well as they. For let them call us young babies & they wool/ yet by god they shall for all that well find in some of us y● an old knave is no child. ¶ Surely quoth I such things as ye speak/ is the thing that as I somewhat said before putteth good folk in fere to suffer the scripture in our english tongue. Not for the reading & receiving/ but for the busy chamming thereof/ and for much meddling with such parties thereof as lest will agree with their capacytees. For undoubtedly as ye spoke of our mother Eve/ inordynate appetite of knowledge in a mean to drive any man out of a paradise. And inordynate is the apperyte when men unlearned though they read it in their language/ will be bysye to enserche and dispute the great secret mysteries of scripture/ which though they here they be not able to perceive. This thing is plainly foreboden us that be not appointed nor instructed thereto. And therefore holy saint Gregory naziazenus that great solemn doctor sore toucheth and reproveth all such bold busy meddlers in the scripture/ & showeth that it is in Exody by Moses ascending up upon the hill where he spoke with god and the people tarrying beneath/ the the people be foreboden to presume to meddle with the high mysteries of holy scripture/ but own to be content to tarry beneath & meddle none higher than is meet for them/ but receiving fro the height of the hill by Moses that the is delivered them/ that is to wite the laws and precepts that they must keep/ and the points they must believe/ look well thereupon/ and often/ and meddle well therewith. Not to dispute it but to fulfil it. And as for the high secret mysteries of god/ & hard texts of his holy scripture/ let us know that we be so unable to asced up so high on that hill/ that it shall bycum us to say to the preach ours appointed thereto as the people said unto Moses'/ her● you god and let us here you. And surely the bles●●d holy doctor saint Hierome greatly complaineth and rebuketh that lewd homely manner/ that the comen lay people men and w●●●n were in his days so bold in the meddling/ disputing/ and exponing of holy scripture. And showeth plainly that they shall have evil proof therein/ that will reckon themself to understand it by themself without a reder. For it is a thing that requireth good help/ & long time/ and an hole mind given greatly thereto. And surely sith as the holy apostles saint paul in divers of his epistle saith/ god hath by his holy spirit so institute and ordained his church/ that he will have some readers and some hearers/ some teachers and some lerners/ we do plainly pervert and turn up so down the right order of Crysties church/ when the tone part meddleth with the tother office. Plato the great philosopher specially for bedeth such as be not admitted thereunto nor men meet therefore/ to meddle much and embesy● themself in reasoning and disputing upon the temporal laws of the city/ which would not be reasoned upon but by folk meet therefore and in place convenient. For else they that can not very well attain to perceive them/ begin to miss like/ dispraise/ and contemn them. Whereof followeth the breach of the laws and misorder of the people. For till a law● be changed by authority/ it rather ought to be observed than contemned. Or else the example of 〈◊〉 law boldly broken and set at nought/ waxeth a precedent for the remanaunt t● be used like. And commonly the best laws shall worst like much of the comen people/ which most long (if they might be herd and followed) to live all at lyberty● under none at all. Now if Plato so wise a man so thought good in temporal laws things of men's making/ how much is it less meet for every man boldly to meddle with the exposition of holy scripture/ so devised and endited by the high wisdom of god/ that it far exceedeth in many placis the capacity and perceiving of man. It was also provided by the emperor in the law civil/ that the comen people should never be so bold to ●epe dispytions upon the faith or holy scripture/ nor that any such thing should be used among them or before them. And therefore as I said before/ the special fere in this matter is/ lest we would be to busy in chamming of the ●crypture ourself/ which ye say we were able enough to do. which undowtely the wisest and the best learned/ and he that th●rin hath by many yeries bestowed his hole mind/ is yet unable to do. And than far more unable must ●e nedis be/ that boldly will upon the fyr●● reading because he knoweth the words/ take upon him therefore to teach other men the sentence with apparel of his own soul and other men's to/ by the bringing men in to mad ways/ sects/ and heresies/ such as heretics have of old brought up & the church hath condemned. And thus in these matters if the comen people might be bold chamme it as ye say & to dispute it/ than should ye have the more blind the more bold/ the more ignorant the more busy/ the less wit the more inquysytyfe/ the more fool the more talkatyf of great douties & high questions of holy scripture & of god great and secret mysteries/ and this not soberly of any good affection/ but presumptuousely and unreverently at meet & at meal. And there when the wine were in & the wit out/ would they take upon them with foolish words & blasphemy ●o handle holy scripture in more homely manner than a song of Robin hood. And some would as I said solemnly take upon them like as they were ordinary readers to interpret the text at their pleasure/ & therewith fall themself & draw down other with than in to seditious sectis & heresies/ whereby the scripture of god should lose his honour & reverence/ and be by such unreverent and unsytting demeanour among much people quite & clean abused/ unto the contrary of that holy purpose that god ordained it for. Where as if we would no ferther meddle therewith but well and devoutly read it/ and in that that is plain and evident as God's commandments and his holy counsels ende●our ourself to follow with help of his grace asked thereunto/ and in his great and marvelous miracles consider his god head/ and in his lowly birth/ his godly life/ and his bitter passion/ exercise ourself in such meditations/ prayer/ and virtues/ as the matter shall minister us occasion/ knowledging our own ignorance where we find a doubt/ and therein leaning to the faith of the church/ wrestle with no such text as might bring us in a d●●● and werestye of any of those articles wherein every good christian man is clear/ by this manner of reading can no man nor woman take hurt in holy scripture. Now than the things on the t●ther side the unlearned people can never by themself attain/ as in the psalms and the prophets & diverse parties of the gospel/ where the words be sometime spoken as in the p●rson of the prophet himself/ sometime as in the person of god/ sometime of some other as angels devils or men/ & sometime of our saviour christ/ not always of one fashion/ but sometime as god/ sometime as man/ sometime as head of this mystical body his church militant here in earth/ sometime as head of his church triumphant in heaven/ sometime as in the person of his sensual parties of his own body/ otherwhile in the person of some partycular● part of his body mystical/ and these things with many other oftentimes interchanged/ and suddenly sundry things of divers matters diversly mingled together/ all these things which is not possible for unlearned men to attain vnt●/ it were more than madness for them to meddle with all/ but leave all these things to them whose hole study is beset thereupon/ and to the preachers appointed thereunto/ which may show them such things in time and place convenient with reverence and authority/ the sermon so tempered/ as may be meet and convenient always for the psent audience. Whereunto it appeareth that our saviour himself & his apostles after him/ had ever a special respect. And therefore as I say forsooth I can in no wise agre with you that it were meet for men unlearned to be busy with the chamming of holy scripture/ but to have it chammed unto them. For that is the preachers part & theirs/ that after long study are admitted to read and expone it. And to this intent way all the words as far as I perceive of all holy doctors that any thing have written in this matter. But never meant they as I suppose the forbidding of the bible to be red in any vulgar tongue. Nor I never yet herdeny reason laid/ why it were not convenient to have the bible translated in to thenglish tongue/ but all those reasons seemed they never so gay & glorious at the first sight/ yet when they were well examined they might in effect for aught that I can see/ aswell be laid against the holy writers that wrote the scripture in the Hebrew tongue/ & against the blessed evamgelystꝭ that wrote the scripture in greek/ & against all those in like wise that translated it out of every of those tougysin to latin/ as to their charge that would well and faithfully translate it out of latin in to our english tongue. For as for that our tongue is called barbarous/ is but a fantasy. For so is as every learned man knoweth/ every strange language to other. And if they would call it barayn of words/ there is no doubt but it is plenteous enough to express our minds in any thing whereof one man hath used to sp●ke with another. Now as touching the dysty●●ltie which a translator findeth in expressing well & lively the sentence of his author/ which is hard always to do so surely but that he shall sometime mynysh ●yther of the sentence or of the grace that it beareth in the formare tongue/ the point hath lyen in their light that have translated the scripture all ready either out of greek into latin or out of ebrew in to any of them both/ as by many translations which we read all ready to them that be learned appeareth. Now as touching the harm that may● grow by such blind bayardies as will when they read the bible in english be more busy than will bycum them. They that touch the point harp upon the right string/ & touch truly the great harm that were likely to grow to some folk/ how be it not by th'occasion yet of thenglish translation/ but by th'occasion of their own lewdness & folly/ which yet were not in my mind a sufficient cause to exclude the translation & to put other folk from the benefit thereof/ but rather to make puysyon against such abuse/ & let a good thing go forth. No wise man were there that would put all wepens away because manquellers mist use them. Nor this letted not as I said the scripture to be first written in a vulgar tongue: For the scripture as I said before was not written but in a vulgar tongue/ such● as the hole people understood/ nor in no secret ciphers but such comen letters as almost every man could read. For neither was the ebrew nor the greek tongue nor the latin neither/ any other speech than such as all the people spoke. And therefore if we should lay that it were evil done to translate the scripture in to our tongue/ because it is vulgar & comen to every english man/ than had it been as evil done to translate it in to greek or in to latin/ or to write 〈◊〉 new testament first in greek or the old testament in ebrew/ because both those tongꝭ were as very vulgar as ours. And yet should there by this reason also not only the scripture be kept out of our tongue/ But over that should the reding thereof be foreboden both all such lay people and all such presties to/ as can no more than their grammar and very scantly that. All which company though they can understand the words/ be yet as far from the perceiving of the sentence in hard & doubtful terties/ as were our women if the scripture were translated to our own language. How be it of troth seldom hath it been seen that any sect of heretics hath begun of such unlearned folk as nothing could else but the language wherein they red the scripture/ but there hath always commonly these sectis sprungen of the pride of such folk/ as had with the knowledge of the tongue some high persuasyon in themself of their own learning bysyde. To whose authority sum other folk have soon after part of malice/ part of simpleness/ & much part of pleasure & delight in newfanglenes/ fallen in & increased the faction. But that head hath ever commonly been either some proud learned man/ or at the le●te bysyde the language some proud smaterer in learning. So that if we should for fere of heretics that might hap to grow thereby keep the sc●ypture out of any tongue/ or out of unlearned men's hand is/ we should for like fere be fain to keep it out of all tongues/ and out of learned men's hands to/ and wot not whom we might trust therewith. Wherefore there is as me thinketh no remedy but if any good thing shall go forward/ somewhat must needs be adventured. And some folk will not fail to be nought. Against which things prouy●y on must be made/ that as much good may grow/ & as little harm ●um as can be devised/ & not to keep the hole commodity from any hole people/ because of harm that by their own folly & faw●e may come to some part. As though a lewd surgeon would cut of the leg by the knee to keep that to fro the gout/ or cut of a man's head by the shoulders to keep him from tooth ache. There is no tretyce of scripture so hard but that a good virtuous man or woman either/ shall somewhat find therein that shall delight and increase their devotion bysydꝭ this/ that every preaching shall be the more pleasant & fru●eful unto than when they have in their mind that place of scripture that they shall there here exponed. For though it be as it is in deed/ great wisdom for a pre●hour to use discretion in his pching & to have a respect unto the qualities & capacytees of his audience/ yet letteth that no thing/ but that the hole audience may without harm have red & have ready the scripture in mind/ that he shall in his preaching declare & expone. For no doubt is there/ but the god and his holy spirit hath so prudently tempered their speech thorough the hole corpse of scripture/ that every man may take good thereby & no man harm/ but he that will in the study thereof/ leanly proudly to the folly of his own● wit. For all be it that Cryst did speak to the people in parables & exponed them secretly to his especial disciples/ & sometime forbore to tell some things to them also because they were not as yet able to hear them/ & thappostles in like wise did sometime spare to speak to some people the things that they did not let plainly to speak to sum other/ yet letteth all this nothing the translation of the scripture in to our own tongue/ no more than in the latin. Nor it is no cause to keep the corpse of the scryptur● out of the hands of any christian people so many yeries fastly confirmed in faith/ because christ and his apostles used such provision in their utterance of so strange and unherde mysteries/ either unto Iewes paynims or newly crystened folk/ except we would say that all thexpositions which christ made himself upon his own parables unto his secret servants and disciples withdrawn from the people/ should now at this day be kept in like wise from the commons/ & no man suffered to read or here them but those that in his church represent the state and office of his apostles. which there will I wot well no wise man say/ considering that those things which were than commonly most kept from the people/ be now most necessary for the people to know. As it well appeareth by all such things in effect as our saviour at the time taught his apostles a part. Whereof I would not for my mind withhold the ꝓfyt that one good devout unlernedley man might take by the reading/ not for the harm that an hundred heretics would fall in by their own wilful abusion/ no more than our sa●you● letted for the weal of such as would be with his grace of his little chosen ●●okke/ to come in to this world & he l●●is offensionis/ et petra scandali/ the stone of stumbling/ and the stone of falling/ and ruin to all the wilful wretches in the world beside. Finally me thinketh that the constitution ꝓuyncyall of which we spoke right now hath determined this question all ready. For when the clergy therein agreed that the english bybles should remain which were translated afore Wyclyffꝭ days/ they consequently did agree that to have the bible in english was none hurt. And in that they forbade any new translation to be red till it were approved ●y the bishops it appeareth well thereby that their intent was that the bishop should approve it if he found it fawtelesse/ & also of reason amend it where it were fawtye/ but if the man we●● an heretic that made it/ or the fawtis such and so many/ as it were more ethe to make it all new than mend it. As it happened for both points in the translation of Tyndall.  
¶ Now if it so be that it would happily be thought not a thing me●ely to be adventured/ to set all on a flush at once/ & dash rashly out holy scripture in every lewd fellows teeth/ yet thinketh me there might such a moderation b● taken therein/ as neither good virtuous lay folk should lack it/ nor rude & rash brains abuse it. For it might be with diligence well and truly translated by some good catholic and well learned man/ or by diverse dividing the labour among them/ and after conferring their several parties together each with other. And after that might the wor● be allowed and approved by the ordinaries/ and by their authorities so put unto print/ as all the copies should come hole unto the bishops hand. Which he may after his discretion and wisdom deliver to such as h● perceiveth honest sad and virtuous/ with a good monition & fatherly counsel to use it reverently with humble h●rt & lowly mind/ rather seeking therein occasion of devotion than of dyspycyon. And providing as much as may be/ that the 〈◊〉 be after the deceace of the party brought again & reverently restored unto the ordinary. So that as near as may be devised/ no man have it bu● of the ordinaries hand/ and by him thought● and reputed for such/ as shall belykely to use it to God's honour & meryt● of his own soul. Among whom if any be proved after to have abused it/ than the use thereof to be forboden him/ either for ever/ or till he be waxen wiser. ¶ By our lady quoth your friend this way myslyketh not me. But who should set the price of the book? ¶ For sooth quod I that reckon I a thing of little force. For neither were it a great matter for any man in manner to give a groat or twain above the mean price for a book of so great profit/ nor for the bishop to give them all free/ wherein he might serve his dyo●yse with the cost of ten li. I think or xx. marks. Which some I dare say ●here is no bishop but he would be glad to bestow about a thing that might do his hole diocese so special a pleasure with such a spiritual profit. ¶ By my ●routh quoth he yet ween I that the people would grudge to have it on this wise delivered them at the bishops hand/ and had liefer pay for it to the printer than have it of the bishop free. ¶ It might so hap with some q I. But ye● in mine opinion there were in that manner more wilfulness/ than wisdom or any good mind in such as would not be content so to receive them. And therefore I would think in good faith that it would so fortune in few. But for god the more doubt would be/ lest the● would grudge and hold themself sore grieved/ that would require it and were happily denied it. Which I suppose would not often happen unto e●y honest howseholder to be by his dys●●●●●yo● reverently red in his house. But though it w●re not taken to ●●ery lewd lad in his own handis to ●ede a little ●●d●ly when he ly●●/ and th●● 〈◊〉 th● book at his heels/ or among other such as himself to keep ● quo●libet & a pot parliament upon/ I tr●we there will no wise man find a fault therein. ●e ●●ake right now● of the jews/ among whom the hole people have ye say the scripture in their hands. And ye thought it no reason that we should reckon christian men les●e worthy thereto than them. Wherein I am as ye see of your own opinion. But yet would god we had the like reverence to the scripture of god that they have. For I assure you I have herd very worsshypful folk say which have been in their houses/ that a man could not hire a jew to sit down upon his bible of the old testament/ but he taketh it with great reverence in hand when he will read/ & reverently layeth it up again when he hath done. where as we god forgive us take little regard to sit down on our bible with the old testament & the new to. Which homely handling as it proceedeth of little reverence/ so doth it more & more engender in the mind a negligence & contempt of God's holy words. We find also that among the jews though all their hold bible was written in their vulgar tongue/ and those books thereof wherein their laws were written were usual in every man's handis/ as things that god would hau● commonly known/ repeated/ and kept in remembrance/ yet were there again certain parties thereof which the comen people of the jews of old time/ both of ●●uerenc● and for the difficulty did forbear to meddle with. But now sy●h● the ●●yle of the temple is broken asunder that divided among the jews/ the people from the sight of the secrets/ & that god had sent his holy spirit to be a●●ystent with his hole church to terhe all necessary truth/ though it may therefore be the better suffered that no p●rte of holy scripture were kept out of honest lay men's hands/ yet would I that no part thereof should come in their/ which to their own harm & happily their neighbours to/ would handle it over homely/ and be to bold & busy therewith. And also though holy scripture be as ye said while ere/ a medycyn for him that is sick/ & food for him that is hole/ yet sith there is many a body sore soul sykke that taketh himself for hole/ & in holy scripture is an hole feast of so much divers vyaunde/ that after the affection & state of sundry stomakies/ one may take harm by the self same that shall do another good/ and sick folk often have such a corrupt tallage in their taste that they most like that meet that is most unwholesome for them/ it were not therefore as me thinketh unreasonable that the ordinary whom godhath in the diocese appointed for the chief physician/ to discern between the hole and the sick/ and between disease and disease/ should after his wisdom and discretion appoint every body their part/ as he should perceive to be good & wholesome for them. And therefore as he should not fail to find many a man/ to whom he might commit all the hole/ so to say the truth I can see none harm therein/ though he should commit unto some man the gospel of Matthew/ Mark or Luke/ whom he should yet forbid the gospel of saint Iohn/ and suffer some to read the acts of the apostles/ whom he would not suffer to meddle with the Apocalyps. Many were there I think that should take much profit by saint Powlys' epistle ad Ephesios'/ wherein he giveth good counsel to every kind of people/ and y●t should find little fruit for their understanding in his epistle ad Rom●nos/ containing such high dyffycultyes as very few learned men can very well attain. And in like wise would it be in divers other parties of the bible as well in the old testament as the new/ so that as I say though the bishop might unto some lay man by take & conmytte with good advise & instruction the hole bible to read/ yet might he to some man well & with reason restrain the reading of some part/ and from some bysye body the m●dlynge with any part at all/ more th●n he shall here in sermons set out and declared unto him/ and in like wise to take the bible away from such fo●●● again/ as be proved by their blind presumption to abuse the occasion of their prophet unto their own hurt and harm. And thus may the bishop order the scripture in our hands/ with as good reason as the father doth by his discretion appoyne which of his children may for his sad keep a knife to cut his meet/ & which for his wantonness have his knife taken from him for cutting of his fingers. And thus am I bold without prejudice of other men's judgement/ to show you my mind in this matter/ how the scripture might without great apparel and not without great profit/ be brought in to our tongue and taken to lay men and women both/ not yet meaning thereby but that the hole bible might for my mind be suffered to be spread abroad in english. But if that were so much doubted that percase all might thereby be letted them/ would I rather have used such moderation as I speak of or some such other as wiser men can better devise. How be it upon that I read late in the pistle that the kings highness translated in to english/ of his own which his grace made in latin answering to the letter of Luther/ my mind giveth me that his maiesteis of his blessed zeal so minded to move this matter unto the prela●ꝭ of the clergy/ among whom I have petreyved/ some of the greatest and of the best of their own minds well inclynable thereto all ready/ that we lay people shall in this matter ere long time pass except the fault be founden in ourself/ be well & fully satisfied and content. ¶ In good faith quoth he that will in my mind be very well done. And now am I for my mind in all this matter fully content & satisfied. ¶ Well quoth I than will we to dyner/ and the remanant will we finish after. And therewith went we to mete.   
¶ The end of the third book.   

¶ The fourth book.  

¶ The first chapter.  
¶ The author showeth wherefore it were not well done/ to suffer Luther's books or any other heretics/ to go abroad and be red among the people/ though there were some good things in them among that bad.  
WHen we had after dinner a little paused/ your friend & I drew ourself aside in to the garden. And there sitting down in an herber/ he began to enter forth in to the matter/ saying that he had well perceived that not in his country only but also in the unyver site where he had been/ there were that had none evil opinion of Luther/ but thought that his books were by the clergy forboden of malice and evil will/ to th'end that folk should not surely see and perfaytely perceive what he saith/ or at the lest what thing he meaneth by his words. which will not appear they think by a line taken out in the mids of a leaf/ but by the diligent consideration of the hole matter. Without which men might impute a wrong blame they say't/ to the best writers that ever wrote in this world. But they think that the clergy will not have his books red/ because that in them lay men may read the presties faults/ which was they say the very cause of the condemnation. For else whither he had written well or ●uyl/ yet they say his books had been kept in men's hands and red. For there is they think therein though some part were nought/ many things yet well said/ whereof there was no reason that men should lose the profit for the bad. And also reason men think it were/ that all were herd that can be said touching the truth to be known/ concerning the matters of our salvation/ to th'intent that all herd and perceived/ men may for their own surety that better these and hold the right way.  
¶ Forsooth q I if it were now dowtful and ambyguouse whither the church of christ were in the right rule of doctrine or not/ than were it very necessary to give them all good audience that could and would any thing dispute on either party for it or against it/ to th'end that if we were now in a wrong way/ we might leave it and walk in some better. But now on that other side if it so be as in deed it is/ that Crystis church hath the true doctrine all ready/ & the self same that saint paul would not give an angel of heaven audience to the contrary/ what wisdom were it now therein to show ourself so mystrustfull and wavering/ that for to search whither our faith were false or true/ we should give hearing not to an angel of heaven/ but to a fond frere/ to an apostate/ to an open incestuous lecher/ a plain limb of the devil/ and a manifest messenger of hell. In which words if ye would happily think that I use myself to sore to call him by such odious names/ ye must consider that he spareth not both untruly and without necessity in his railing books/ to call by as evil/ them whom his duty were highly to reverence/ where as I do between us twain call him but as himself hath showed him/ in his writing/ in his living/ and in his mad marriage. And yet I neither do it nor would/ were it not that the matter self of reason doth require it. For my part is it of necessity to tell how nought he is/ because that the worse the man is the more madness were it for wise men to give his false fables harkening against God's undoubted truth/ by his holy spirit taught unto his church/ and by such multitude of miracles/ by so much blood of holy martyrs/ by the virtuous living of so many blessed confessors/ by the purity and cleanness of so many chaste widows and undefouled virgins/ by the wholesome doctrine of so many holy doctors/ and finally by the hole consent and agreement of all christian people this fifteen hundred year confirmed. And therefore not any respect unto his railing against the clergy/ is as some would have it seem the cause of his condemnation and suppression of his books. For the good men of the clergy be not so sore grieved with them that touch the faults of the bad/ nor the bad themself be not so renderered/ that for the only talking of their fautis they would banish the books that were good in other things bysyde. For ellis could not the books of many old holy fathers have endured so long/ wherein the vices of them that in the clergy be nought/ be very vehemently rebuked. But the very cause why his books be not suffered to be red/ is because his heresies be so many/ and so abominable/ and the proofs therewith he pretendeth to make them probable be so far from reason and troth/ and so far against the right understanding of holy scripture/ whereof under colour of great zeal and affection he laboureth to destroy the credence and good use/ and finally so far stretcheth all thing against good manner and virtue/ provoking the world to wrong opinions of god and boldness in sin & wretchedness/ that there can no good/ but much harm grow by the reading. For if there were the substance good/ and of error or oversight some cockle among the corn/ which might be sifted ow● and the remanant stand in stead/ men would have been content therewith as they be with such other. But now is his not byspryent with a few spots/ but with more than half venom poisoned the hole wine/ and that right rotten of it self. And this done if purpose and malice/ not without an evil spirit in such wise walking with his words/ that the contagion thereof were likely to infect a feeble soul/ as the savour of a sickness sore infecteth an hole body. Nor the trourth is not to be learned of every man's mouth. For as Cry●t was content not that the devil should call him goods son though it were stew so is he not content that a devils limb as Luther is or Tyndal/ should ●eche his flock the troth/ for infecting them with their false devilish heresies besides. For like wise as the holy scripture of god because of the good spirit that made it is of his own nature apt to purge and amend the reder/ though some that read it of their invincible malice turn it to their harm/ so do such wrytyngys' as Luth●rs is/ in the making whereof the ●●uyll is of counsel and giveth therewith a breath of his as●●stence/th●●gh the goodness of some men m●yster the malice thereof/ walking harmless with goddies help/ as the prophet saith upon the serpent and the cocatrye●/ & treading upon the lion and the dragon/ yet be such works of themself always right vnh●lsom to meddle with/ meet and apt to corrupt and infect the reder. For the proof whereof we need none other example/ than this that we be in hand withal/ if we consider what good the reading of his books hath done in Saxony. And this find we more than to much proved here among us/ that of ten that use to read his books/ ye shall scantly find tway●/ but that they not only cast of prayer and fasting and all such godly ver●●●●●s holy scripture commendeth/ and the church commandeth/ and vertu●us people have ever had in great price/ but also fall in plain contempt and hatred thereof. So that what fruit should gr●●● of the reading ye may soon guess.   

¶ The ii chapter.  
¶ The author showeth many of Luther's heresies to be so abominable/ and some part also so peevish/ that the very bare rehearsal i● enough with out any further dyspytion th●●●ppō/ to cause any good man abhor●e them/ and to be ashamed also to seem so foolish as to hold them. And for a sample the author rehearseth divers/ whereof some be new set forth by Tyndall in his english books/ worse yet in some p●rte th●n his master Luther is himself.  
ANd in good faith I w●ld ●●ne that any good m●n except some reasonable neces●●●● should co●●●ell him thereto/ else would if he herd but his opinion once rehearsed/ be very loath to lose his time in the reading/ either of his fond proof/ or of the very titles & names thereof again. ¶ If they be such in deed quod your friend and that they be not mistaken or mysreported. ¶ Me thinketh quod I that the fruit which ye see spring of them/ should suffice to make you perceive them for nought. And ywys a fr●rys living the weddeth a nun when his living is such/ should make it ethe to wit that his teaching is not very good. ¶ Surely quoth he I can not say nay but that these be shrewd tokens. ¶ I shall quoth I do more for you. For I shall find the means that ye shall see his own bokis/ and therein perceive yourself that men belie him not. ¶ I pray you quoth he let me here some of his opinions by mouth● the while/ and for the saying of them in his own books I shall be think me after.  
¶ first he began quod I with pardons and with the popes power/ denying finally any of both to be of any effect at all.  
¶ And soon after to show what good spirit moved him/ he denied all the seven. sacraments/ except baptism/ penance/ and the sacrament of the altar/ saying plainly that all the remanant be but feigned things and of none effect.  
¶ Now these that he leaveth for good/ it is good to see how he handleth them. For in penance he saith/ that there neither needeth contrition nor satisfaction. Also he saith that there needeth no pressed for the hearing of confession/ but that ●uery man and every woman to/ is as sufficient to here confession & assoil and do all that longeth to a confessor as is a pressed.  
¶ Marry sir quoth your friend this were an easy way for one thing. For the sorest thing that I find in confession/ is that when I see many confessors at a pardon/ yet can I scant like one of them so well upon the fight/ that I would tell any such tallies to once in seven year & I might che●e. But now if I might after Luther's way be confessed to a fair woman/ I would not let to be confessed weakly. ¶ Ye would q I peradventure tell her a tale that ye would not tell every man. But yet if some men told some tallies to a fair woman that they tell in confession to a fowl frere/ they would wish I ween among that they had kept their counsel in their own breast. ¶ Marry quoth he that may happen also in the confession that is made unto a pressed. ¶ Possible it were in deed quod I. And Tyndall in his book of obedience or rather disobedience saith/ that the curates do go and show the bishops the confessions of such as be rich in their parishes/ and that the bishops thereupon do city them and lay their secret synnies to their charge/ & either put them to open shameful penance/ or compel them to pay at the byshyps' pleasure. Now dare I be bold to thy/ & I suppose all the honest men in this realm will say and swear the same/ that this is a very foolish falsehood imagined of his own mind/ whereof he never saw the sample in his life. We see in sum rather the contrary fault/ that not only the rich but the poor also/ keep open queens and live in open adultery/ with out payment or penance or ●ny thing almost once said unto them. But therewith findeth Tyndall no fault in the bishops. For he say● plainly that the bishop hath none authority to 〈◊〉 any such thing at all. But he letteth not on the other side to belie the bishops and the curatis to/ feigning that the tone doth utter folkys confessyon● to the t'other. And when he hath so bylyed them/ then forthwith as though he had proved his tale true/ he taketh the same falls feigned lie for a ground thereupon to byeld the destruction of that holy sacrament of penance. For upon that lie and such other like/ he saith plainly that confession to the pressed is the worst thing that ever was found. Now if that were true as it is as false as he that said it/ how happened it than (which question Luther & he be asked often and always make as they herd it not) how happened it I say that of so many virtuous wise and cunning fathers as have been in Crysties church in so many hundred yeries/ never none had the wit nor the grace to spy this great thing/ but all teach confession/ till now that Tyndal ca●/ which yet in this point 〈◊〉 his master Luther For he saith he would in any wise have confession stand/ but he would have it made at liberty as well to women as men. But Tyndall will have none at all/ because he listeth to belie both the bishops & the curates/ feigning that they should between them disclose our confessions. ¶ In faith quoth your friend that is a thing that I never herd to have happened. ¶ Nor he neither quoth I that dare I boldly say. And yet I wot well as ye said right now/ that prestis should utter folkys confession were well possible/ and in many of them nothing in this world more likely neither/ ●f god and his holy spirit were not as it is assistant and working with his holy sacrament. But surely where as there be many things that 〈◊〉 & clearly prove the sacrament of cōfe●●●ō t● be a thing instytu●● & devised by god/ yet● if all the remanant la●hed/ this 〈◊〉 things were unto me a plain per●●●syon & a full profe●whyche thing I find in the noble book that the king's highness made against Luther/ that is to wit that in so comen & custom of confession ofter than ●nys in the year/ where no man letteth boldly to tell such his secrets/ as upon the dyscovering or close keeping thereof his honesty commonly & often time his life also dependeth/ so many simple as be of that sort that here them/ and in all other thing so light and laves of their tongue/ and some therewith so lewd in all their living/ that for money they force little to steel rob and murder to/ and might many times with the disclosing of some such things gete so much as some of them would kill a man for less●/ yet find we never any man take harm by his confession/ or cause given of complaint/ thorough ●ny such secrets uttered and showed by the confessor. ¶ In good fayth● quoth he this is very truth and a great thing in mine opinion. But undowtely if confession came ●ny● to women's ears/ there would be a sore change. For it would be hard for god and the devil to/ to keep their tongues. ¶ Yes yes quod I● 〈◊〉 can keep a counsel well enough. For though she tell a gossyppe she telleth it but in counsel yet/ nor that gosseppe to her gosseppe neither/ and so when all the gosseppies in the town ●nowe it/ yet is it but counsel still: And therefore I say it not for any harm that would come by them but for the neweltye thereof.  
¶ Now in ●rnest quod yo●● friend this was a much more mad i●uencyon of Luther/ and that Luther is in a manner as mad as Tyndall. For it were as good almost to have no ●●nfessyon at all/ as to set women to here it. ¶ Forsooth quoth I if it had been wisdom and not against god will/ it would of lykelyhedde have b●● founden by some good men before these days/ in this long time of so many hundred yeries. How be it he gooth near enough to take it all away. And diverse of his scholars bysyde Tyndall do now deny it utterly. And himself leaveth little substance and little fruit therein. For he would that we should not care much for any full confession of all deadly synnies/ nor be very studious in the gathering of our faults to mind/ nor pondering the cyrcumstauncies nor the write and gravity thereof/ nor taking any sorrow therefore. Now those things taken away/ and the sacrament of penance left such as he would have it/ consider in yourself what fruit w●re a man likely to find in it/ he that taketh a confessor he forceth not wh●̄/ & then confesseth he forceth not what/ disposing him to repentance he forceth not how/ good wortkꝭ in satysfacciō●●●ompteth for nought/ what manner of amendment shall this man cum to? and specially if beside all this he may take to his confessor a fair woman such as a young man would have a lust to break his mind unto/ doth it not plainly appear that this fond fellow so playeth with this holy sacrament of penance/ that he ●o●th about utterly to destroy it? 〈◊〉 yet is this one of the th●● that he loveth/ taking 〈…〉 expressly. ¶ Surely quod your friend so d●●th ●e this to as thinketh me. ¶ For●●th quod I and he handled the sacrament of baptism not much better. For he magnifieth baptism but to the suppressyon of penance ● of all goodlyving. For therein he teacheth that the sacrament self hath no virtue at all/ but the faith only.  
¶ Item he teacheth that only faith sufficeth to our salvation with our baptism/ without good works. He saith also that it is sacrilege to go about to please god with any works & not with faith only.  
¶ Item that no man can do any good work.  
¶ Item that the good and ryghtuou●● man always sinneth in doing well.  
¶ Item that no sin can damn any christian man/ but only lac●e of bylef. For he saith that our faith su●●eth up all our synnies how gre●e so ever they be.  
¶ Item he teacheth that no man hath no fire will/ nor can any thing do therewith/ not though the help of grace be joined thereunto/ but that every thing that we do good and bad/ we do nothing at all there in ourself/ but only suffer god to do all thing in us good and bad/ as were is wrought in to an image or a candle by the man's hand without any thing doing there to it self.  
¶ Item he saith that god is as verily the author and cause of the evil will of judas in betrayeng of christ/ as of the good will of christ in 〈…〉 his p●●●yon.  
¶ In matrimony he saith plainly that it 〈…〉 sacrament/ and so s●y●●e Tyndall to.  
¶ Item that if a man be not able to do his duty to his wife/ he is bounden secretly without slander to provide another to do it for him. ¶ Forsoth& abque; your friend this was courteys●y considered of him/ he is a very gentleman I 〈◊〉 you. It is no marvel though his wife be well ●e●mynge if he make her such provision. ¶ Surely quoth I this wise devise hath he/ and much other bestelynes●● he saith in such things and his disciples after him of such sort as honest ears could scant abide the hearing.  
¶ In the sacrament of order he saith/ that presthede and all holy orders be but a feigned invention.  
¶ Item that every crys●e● m●nand every christian woman is a pressed.  
¶ Item that every man may consecrate the body of christ. ¶ This is a shameful saying in good faith quoth you●e friend. ¶ Abide ye q I and ye shall here worse yet. For he ferther that every woman and child may consecrate the body of our lord. ¶ Surely quoth he than is the man m●● outryght. ¶ He saith quoth I further yet/ that the canon of the mass is false.  
¶ Item that the host in the mass is none oblation nor sacrifice.  
¶ Item that the mass with his cannon after the form that is and ever hath been used in Crysties church/ is sacrilege and abomination.  
¶ And though much of this concerneth his damnable heresies ●o●thīg y● blessed sacrament of the altar/ yet saith h● thereof many lewd doctrines m●. And among other he teacheth that it is heresy to believe that there is not very breed and very wine in the sacrament of the author joined with the body & blood of our lord.  
¶ Item Swynglius and Ecolam●●dius scholars of Luther have byteded ferther upon this ungracious ground of their master/ and teach that the sacrament of the altar is not the very body nor blo●d of our lord at all. And Luther himself all be it he now writeth against them there in/ yet (as it by many things appeareth) minded and intended to put forth by leisure the same heresy himself/ till he changed his mind for envy that he bore toward them/ when he saw that they would be heads of a sect themself (for that cold he suffer no man to be but himself) But before as I say he did intend it himself. And therefore he made a way toward it by these other heresies that I have rehearsed you/ and by diverse other more.  
¶ For he teacheth also that the mass availeth no man quick nor deed/ but only to the pressed himself.  
¶ Item he teacheth that men should go to mass as well after sowper as before broke fast/ and in his comen clothes as he g●●th all day without light or any other honourable rite used therein.  
¶ Item he saith it were best that men should never be how seled/ but once in their life. And that never till they lie a dying/ as they be but once crystened/ and that at their beginning.  
¶ Item he teacheth that every man and woman should take the holy sacrament/ and spare not to touch it and handle it as much as them list.  
¶ Item he saith that the blessed sacrament of the altar is ordained of god to be received/ but not to be worshipped. ¶ In faith quoth your friend these things be far out of course. ¶ It see quoth I now how he handleth all the blessed sacraments.  
¶ But now hath he other wild heresies at large. For he teacheth against scripture and all reason that no christian man is or can be bounden by any law made among men/ nor is not bounden to observe or keep any.  
¶ Item he teacheth that there is no purgatory.  
¶ Item that all men's souls lie still and sleep till the day of doom.  
¶ Item that no man should pray to saints nor set by any holy relics nor pilgrimages.  
¶ By my truth quoth your friend I had forgotten/ that when I was n●we in the university in the communication that I had with my frendis there in that matter/ one of them objected against me/ that the worship of images have he ere this condemned by a great counsel in Grece. ¶ There was in deed q I● counsel once in gre●e gathered by an emperor/ that then was an heretic there which was after in the tyghteth Synod by the general counsel dampened and annulled. But this no more doth to the matter/ than if there would now in Saxony and Swych●rland and such other placis such people as swarm fro the faith g●ther themself together and keep 〈◊〉 they would call it a general counsel / wherein they might determine what they would. And yet were all that no prejudice to the right believe of the catholic church/ which is alway that known people that still persever as one body with our saviour christ in their former fast confirmed faith/ from which faithful body these other wythering brawnches be blown away by the devil. And therefore as the cold make none authority against the true ●ayth of the church/ so could that counsel in great no thing prove their purpose/ which made none interruption of the right believe and godly custom of worship done to saints & images/ that yet did for all that continue still in all the catholic church of christ/ and ever sins hath done. ¶ Forsooth quoth he that is troth.  
¶ Yet went never q I the counsel in Grece scysmatycal as it was any thing so far as Luther and Tyndall & their company which leave no saint unblasphemed/ nor Crysties own mother neither.  
¶ For Luther can not abide the comen anthen of our lady and the most de●o●t Salve regina/ because we therein call that blessed virgin our advocate.  
¶ Item every other woman now living if she have the same faith may by prayed unto as our lady/ and with her prayer as much profit us.  
¶ Item he teacheth that men should do no worship to the holy cross that christ died on/ saying that if he had it hole or all the pyecies thereof/ he would cast it in such a place as no son should shine thereon/ to th'end it should never be founden to be worshipped more.  
¶ Item of all s●estys he saith that he hateth the feast of the holy cross/ and the feast of Corpus christi.  
¶ He teacheth also that no man or woman is bounden to keep and observe any vow that h● hath made to god 〈◊〉 virginity/ or wydowhed/ or other ch●styte out of marriage/ but that they may marry at their liberty their vow not withstanding. ¶ And how proveth ●e that quoth your friend? ¶ Marry quoth I by the breaking of his own/ wh●n he married the nunce. And now he raileth against all cha●●y●●/ & saith 〈◊〉 if a pressed ly●e chaste/ he is like to the presties of the idol ●ybeles.  
¶ Long would it be to write you all thabominable heresies of this new sect. But some of them have I rehearsed/ that ye may thereby consider whither he that teacheth such things/ go not about utterly to destroy the hole ●ayth/ religion/ and virtue of christendom. And that he is not in any of these points bylyed/ I shall find the mean that ye shall see it in his own books. And there shall ye see how madly h● laboureth to prove them. ¶ Prove them quod your friend? the substance of these matters be to abominable to be reasoned. And to make him hated of all good folk/ is enough to here them rehearsed. But I meruayl me much how he fell in to such an heap of hyresyes.   

¶ The iii chapter.  
¶ The author showeth by what occasion that Luther first fell to the devyding of these heresies. And that the occasion was such as well declareth/ that he was pricked thereto by malice/ and ever proceeded from evil to worse/ not witting where to hold him/ & yt●e refuseth to stand to the judgement of any folk earthly concerning the trenth or falsh●d of his opinions save only himself.  
NOw that is somewhat worth to consider/ how this lewd frere bygan to fall in these mischievous matters, Ye shall understand that there was a pardon obtained in Saxony/ for which pardon as the manner is there/ Luther was the precheour & preached to the people/ exhorting them thereto/ & auauncynge the authority thereof all that he possible might/ not without his great advantage therefore. So happened it than soon after/ that the setting forth of the pardon with th'advantage thereof/ was taken from him and set to another. For anger whereof he fell in to such a fury/ that forthwith he began to write against all pardons. How be it because the matter was new & strange/ he began first by way of dowties and questions only/ submitting himself & his writing to the judgement of the pope/ & desiring to be informed of the troth whereupon when he was by writing answered by the master of the popes palace/ than waxed he more wood & fell to railing against him/ & made also a northern book against the power of the pope/ affirming that his power upon the church was never institute of god/ but ordained only by the common consent of crysten people for avoiding of scysmies. But yet he said that all crysten men were bounden to stand and ob●y thereunto/ and that the Bohemes were damnable heretics for doing the contrary. But soon after when he was in such wise answered by good and cunning men/ that he perceived himself unable to defend that he had affirmed/ than fell he from reasoning to railing/ and utterly denied that he had before affirmed. And than began to write that the pope had no power at all/ neither by god nor man. And that the Bohemes whom he had in his wrytyngys' before called damnable heretics/ were good crysten men/ and all their opinions good and catholic. Than when he was cited by the pope's holiness to appear/ he appealed to the next general counsel/ which should be gathered in the holy ghost. So that what so ever general counsel were after assembled/ he might geste and rail thereon/ & say it was not it that he appealed unto/ for it was not assembled in the holy ghost. ¶ He took quoth your friend a good wily way ¶ As wily as it was q I yet would he not stand thereby/ but fled from that to another. Now shall ye understand/ that yet soon after this in the book by which he not answereth but raileth against that book wherein our sovereign lord the king like a most faithful virtuous and most erudite prince/ evidently & effectually revynced and confuted the most venomous and pestilent book of Luther entyteled the captivity of Babylon/ in which he laboureth to destroy the holy sacraments of Cristis chyrch● in that book I say Luther which had before appealed to then ex●general counsel/ utterly denieth the authority of all general counsayllies/ and setteth them all at nowghte. ¶ By my troth quoth your friend either was the man very negligent before/ or very nought after/ when he changeth so often/ and writeth ever the longer the more contrary/ not to his adversary only/ but also to himself. But I pray you how excuseth he his inconstance? ¶ Marry quoth I he saith that he seeth ferther than he saw before. whereunto the king's grace showeth him/ that it were unlikely/ that he should see better through a pair of evil spectacles of ire & envy. ¶ Very true quoth your friend by my truth. But yet I here say that he hath offered to stand at the judgement of learned men in all his matters/ if his offer had been taken in tyme. ¶ In deed q I once he promised to stand to the judgement of the university of Paris/ & thereupon was there open dispicions kept/ and the very words written by notaries sworn for both the parties. But when his opinions were after at Paris by the university condemned/ than he refused to stand to their judgement/ & fell again to his old craft of railing. ¶ He appeared also at worms before the emperor and the princes of the empire by a sufeconducte. And there recognized and knowledged as well the said pestilent book written against the sacraments/ as many other of like sort to be his own/ and offered to abide by them. Which he might boldly do/ being by the safe conduct in good surety of himself that he could take none harm. Than was he moved to dispicions upon the articles/ so that he should agree upon some persons virtuous and well learned/ that should be judges of that dispicions/ and that he should be content to stand to their judgement upon the same. whereupon he agreed to come to dispicions/ but he would in no wise agree to make any men living judges upon it/ nor stand to no man's judgement earthly.   

¶ The four chapter.  
¶ The author showeth how that Luther in the book that himself made of his own acts at the city of worms in almain/ doth so madly oversee himself/ that he dyscloseth unware certain follies of himself/ which a man will well laugh at and marvel much to see it.  
ANd that these things be true/ it well appeareth to all the world in the book that he made himself of his demeanour/ and his acts at the city called worms in almain. Which book who so readeth/ shall have a great pleasure to see therein/ both the frantyke vainglory of the fond frere/ & yet there withal to see him carried out with folly so far from himself/ that in a line or twain he discovereth all that he went about to hide in all the book bysyde. For ye shall understand that albeit he made that book himself/ yet he made it so that he would it should seem to have been of some other man's making & not of his own/ to th'intent that such worshipful words as he speaketh of himself/ might make him in theries of the reder/ seem some honourable person. Which words else he wist well spoken of his own mouth/ all the world would wonder on. Now in this book bysyde that he leaveth out some things there said and spoken where the words written in could do him no worship/ and some things reciteth with advantage for his part/ rehersing the other side nakedly and barely & pared of to make it seem the more slender/ one thing he observeth diligently/ that where as speaking of the emperor he calleth him never but simply and syngly charles/ he never speaketh of himself but he setteth forth his name in great capital letters and solemn titles/ The Man of God Luther. And where as they that spoke against his errors/ he writeth that they braced out in to vyrulent and venimouse words/ when he cometh to his own answer/ th●n he writeth in this wise/ but than D. Martin for his incredible humanyt● & bounty answered in this wise benignly. And sometime with these words/ the most benign father most mildly made answer. And finally he finished and endeth his book as it were with a Gloria patri to the hole psalm in this wise/ This holy devout man therefore even borne to teach and preserve the gospel of god/ our lord long preserve for his church with his holy word also Amen. Now who was there ever borne so suspycyous that ever would have suspected that he which wrote such glorious words of Luther sh●ld be Luther himself. For where should a man find so very a vayngloryouse fool/ that would not in himself be ashamed of himself to think such things. But now ye that read this/ I pray you for god sake see how utterly this ych and tykling of vanity and vainglory had cast him clean beside his mind and memory. For where as all the book bysyde was so devised & handled/ that it should seem some other to have made it and not himself/ suddenly the fond fellow bewrayed himself unware. For in one place forgetting himself/ he speaketh in this wise/ When this was spoken/ than the orator of the empire in a chiding manner said that I had not answered to the purpose/ and that those thyngiss which had been dampened and determined in general counsels of old/ aught not now of new to be brought again in question by me/ and therefore I should give a plain answer whither I would revoke mine errors or not. Than unto this I answered in this wise. Sith that it is so. etc. Lo here may ye see the incredible humility and lowly mind of this most benign father/ which under the vysour of a strange herald/ bloweth out himself his own boast. Than may ye see therewith his marvelous profound prudence/ that had not the wit to beware that himself bewrayed not his own so foolish a device/ in the vain avaunting of his own false boast and praise/ that though the words had been true/ yet would almost a very natural fool have been ashamed of himself to write them. ¶ By my truth quoth your friend this devise was madly minded of Luther/ & madly handled/ & madly overseen/ to show himself so fond/ but if pride as the proverb is must needs have a shame.   

¶ The .v. chapter.  
¶ The author showeth the parpetual inconstance of Luther/ and his contraryetes and repugnance against himself.  
NOw as for his constance appeareth quoth I by that I have before rehearsed of his continual change in his heresies fro day to day/ fro worse to worse/ which course he kept not only in the matters above rehearsed/ but almost in all the remanant. For as concerning purgatory/ he wrote first that all though it could not be proved by evident scripture as he affirmed/ yet was there no doubt but that there is purgatory/ and that thing he said was of all christian men firmly to be believed. And than he wrote that he wondered of the madness of such false and foolish heretics as were borne within one hundred year passed/ and are not ashamed to deny purgatory/ which the hole church of christ hath believed this fifteen hundred year. Now what constance is there in this frere/ that wrote this of heretics that deny purgatory/ and within a while after denieth it himself/ saying in the sermon that he wrote of the rich man & Lazare/ that all men's sowlys lie still and sleep till domys day.  
¶ Marry quoth your friend than hath some man had a sleep of a fair length. They will I ween when they wake forget some of their dreams. ¶ By my faith quoth I he that believeth Luther that his soul shall sleep so long/ shall when he dieth sleep in shrewd rest. ¶ I much marvel quoth your friend what evil ailed him to find out this fond folly. ¶ To this opinion quoth I/ or rather to the feigning of this opinion (for I verily think that himself thinketh not as he writeth) he fell for envy & hatred that he bore to priesthood/ by the malice of which his ungracious mind/ he rather were content that all the world lay in the fire of purgatory till domys day/ than that there were one penny given to a pressed to pray for any soul. ¶ This is quoth your friend very likely.  
¶ Like constance quoth I hath he used in the matter of holy vows. For in his book of the captivity of Babylon/ he writeth that neither man nor angel is able to dispense with the vow made by man to god. And soon after he wrote that no vow cold bind any man/ but that every man may boldly break them of his own head. But it well appeareth that he wrote the first of anger and malice toward the pope/ and than changed to the second of a lecherous lust to the nun that he minded to marry.   

¶ The vi chapter.  
¶ The author showeth how that Luther hath be fain for the defence of his undefencyble errors/ to go back and forsake all the manner of proof & trial/ which he first promised to stand to. And now like a man shameful and shameless/ hath no proof in the world but his own word/ and calleth that the word of god.  
HIs inconstaunte wit and very devilish intent specially showed it self/ by this also which I shall now rehearse you. In the beginning the man had the mind that commonly such fools have/ he reckoned all the world wild gese save himself/ and all the wit and learning to stand in his own head. And than weening that he should find no match/ but that he should as he list be able to prove the mo●e made of green cheese/ he ꝓfessed in his books that he would for the proof or reprove of his opinions/ stand to natural reason/ to the authority of the old holy father's/ the laws and canons of Crysties church/ and to the holy scripture of god with thinterptacyons of the old holy doctors. But so●e after when he● perceived himself in his opinion deceived/ and that he saw himself confuted and concluded evidently both by scripture/ natural reason/ the laws and determinations of the church/ and the hole consent of the holy father's interpreters of holy scripture/ than bygan he to sing another song. For than as for reason he refused to stand to/ saying that the matters of our faith be things above reason/ and that reason hindereth us in our faith/ & is unto faith an enemy. And as for the laws of the church/ he with other blasphemous heretics burned up openly at ●yttēberge/syn●●nge in derision a dirge about the fire for the laws soul. And than would he stand ●●nothyng but only scriptures not to that neither but if it were very plain & evident. But now if it were in question whither the scripture were euydent● for him or against him/ there in would he stand to no man's judgement but his own. For as for the hole faith of Cryrsties church continued by so many hundred yeries/ he set utterly at nought/ calling it men's devyeꝭ. And in scripture the interpretation of saint Hierome/ saint austin/ saint Ambrose/ and all the old holy fathers of so many yeries passed/ he no thing would esteem/ ●ut with blasphemous words letted not to write/ I care not for austin/ I care not for an hundred cypryanes/ I care not for a thousand Hieromis/ I care not but for scripture alone/ and that is plain on my part. As though none of these old holy cunning men had understand any scripture till he came. Now was he by this unreasonable manner driven to another devilish device against saints. For to th'intent that their authority should no by the devotion and reverence that all good men bear them mynysh his credence/ he was forced to labour to bring men in the heresy that they should pray to no saints/ but would have their images drawn down all/ their pilgrimages left up/ all their relics cast out/ all their honour and men's devotion toward them wythdrawn/ so farforth that he could neither abide the honour of our blessed lady/ nor the holy cross/ nor Crysties blessed body/ as plainly declareth his abominable books.   

¶ The vii chapter.  
¶ The author showeth what things caused the people to fall in to Luther's fond and furious sect. And he showeth also what mischief the followers of that sect have done in Almaigne/ Lombardy/ & Rome.  
IT is quoth your friend a wonder to me/ that the people being before brought up in the right belief/ cold find in their hearts to give him audience in some such heresies as these be. ¶ Ye must understand and may perceive quod I that he did not set forth all at once. But as Tyndale hath begun here in england with the thing that had a good visage/ though he had corrupted it and meant nought in deed/ putting for the first the new testament in such wise handled/ that unlearned folk were likely to take harm and conceive divers heresies in their hearts/ ere they cold perceive his falsehood/ and than hath sins by ii other books openly showed himself to lack nothing of Luther/ but that he hath not yet married a nun/ so did Luther also put forth in the beginning no more but the matter of pardons as I told you/ and therein nothing a●fermed neither against the determination of the church/ but submitted himself there to. Now with this demeanour was there no man offended. But yet did he that time intend a further mischief/ which he little and little pursued and brought to pass. And one special thing with which he spyced all the poison/ was the lybartye that he so highly commended unto the people/ bringing them in believe that having faith/ they needed nothing else. For as for fasting/ prayer/ and such other things/ he taught them to neglect and set at nought as vain and unfruitful ceremonies/ teaching them also that being faithful Christians/ they were so near cousins to Cryst/ that they be in a full freedom and lybartye discharged of all governors & all manner laws spiritual or temporal/ except the gospel only. And albe it he said that of a special perfection it should be well done to suffer and bear the rule and authority of popes princes & other governors/ which rule & authority he calleth but only tyranny/ yet he saith that the people be so free by faith/ that they be no more bounden thereto/ then they be bounden to suffer wrong. And this doctrine also teacheth Tyndall/ as the special matter of his holy book of disobedience. Now was this doctrine in almain of the comen uplandish people so pleasantly heard/ that it blinded them in the looking the remnant & could not suffer them to consider and see what end the same would in conclusion cum to. The temporal lords were glad also to here this gear against the clergy/ and the people as glad to here it against the clergy/ and against the lords to/ and against all their governors of every good town and city. And finally so far went it forward/ that at the last it began to braced out and fall to open force and violence. For intending to bygyn at the feeblest/ there gathered them together for that setting forth of these ungracious heresies/ a boystyous company of that unhappy sect/ and first rebelled against an abbot/ & after against a bishop/ wherewith the temporal lords had good game and sport and dissembled the matter/ gaping after the lands of the spirituality/ till they had almost played as Esope telleth of the dog/ which to snach at the shadow of the cheese in the water/ let fall and lost the cheese that he bore in his mouth. For so was it shortly after that those uplandish Lutherans took so great boldness & so bygan to grow strong/ that they set also upon the temporal lords. which had they not set hand thereto that sooner while they looked for other men's lands/ had been like shortly to lose their own. But so quit they themselves/ that they slew upon the point of lxx thousand Lutherans in one summer/ & subdued the remaunt in that part of almain to a right miserable servitude. How be it in the mean while many mischievous deeds they did.  
¶ And yet in diverse other parties of Almaigne and swycherlande/ this ungracious sect by the negligence of the governors in great cities/ is so farforth grown/ that finally the common people have compelled the rulers to follow them/ whom if they had take heed in time/ they might have ruled & led. ¶ And now is it to piteous a sight to see the dyspytuous dyspyghties done there in many placies to god and all good men/ with that marvelous change from all face and fashion of christendom/ in to a very tyrannous persecution/ not only of all good christian people quick and deed/ but also of christ himself. For there shall ye see now the goodly monasteries destroyed/ the placies burned up/ the religious people put out and sent to seek their living/ or in many cities the placies yet standing/ with more despite to god than if they much earnest business for to have some money with her. And whither he gate ●ug he or gate nought by that devise/ he letted not soon after to putt● the father/ the mother/ the fair daughter & all the hole house to new torments/ to make them tell where any more money were/ were their any or none. And some failed not to take the child and bind it to a broche/ and lay it to the ●●re to ro●●●/ the father and mother looking on. And th●n begin to comen of ● price for the sparing of the child/ asking first an hundred ducaties/ than thirty/ than forty/ than twenty/ than ten/ than five/ than tw●yn/ when the silly father had not one left/ but these tyr●untys had all before. Than would they let the child roast to death. And yet in derision as though they py●yed the child they would say to the father & the mother/ Ahfy fie for shame what marvel is it though god send ● vengeance among you. What unnatural people be you that can find in your hearts to see your own child roasted afore your face/ rather than ye would out with one ducat to deliver it from death.  
¶ Thus devised these cursed wretches so many divers fashions of exquysyt● cruelties/ that I ween they have taught the devil new torments in hell/ that that he never knew before/ and will not fail to prove himself a good scholar/ and surely render them his lesson when they come there/ where it is to be feared that many of them be by this. For soon after that they had in Rome exc●rcysed a while this fierce & cruel tyranny/ and enured in to the holy churches/ spoiled the holy relics/ caste ow● the blessed sacrament/ pulled the chalice from th●u●er at mas●●/ slain presties in the church/ left no kind of cruelty or spite undone/ but from hour to hour embruing their hands in blood/ & that in such wise as any turk or Sarycyne would have pitied or aborted/ our lord sent soon after such a postylence among them that he lest not of them the third part alive. For this purpose I rehearse you this theyr● h●uy mysche●ous dealing/ that ye may perceive by their deeds/ what good cometh of their sect. For as our saviour saith ye shall know the tree by the fruit.   

¶ The viii chapter.  
¶ The messenger saith that the malice of the men is not to be imputed to the sec●e/ sith that of every sect some be nought. And the author showeth that in the Lutherans/ the sects self is the cause of the malice that the men fall to.  
Sir quoth your friend in good faith I neither can nor will defend that sect. But yet reason it is to take every thing as it is. And if it be nought/ it hath the les●e need to be made worse. But as for the malicious cruel dealing of men of war/ is not in my mind to be imputed to the sects of Luther. For there is no sect so sayntly/ but they fall to cruelty when they fall to water. And of every sect also be some bad. And therefore the malice of the m●n is not as me seemeth to be imputed unto the sect. ¶ It is not q I all one to be sum nought & all nought. But they that fall to this sect/ wax ●●●ght all the hole meinie. For forth with upon this sect ones begun/ the 〈◊〉 ●tockys of such as were infect therewith/ ●ell unto those mischievous deeds that I before rehearsed you. And also though men in war wax furious and cruel/ yet was there never none that went there inso far/ & specially in such kind of cruelty as hath been among christian men in their war alway forborn/ as is the dyspytes done to the blessed sacrament/ wherein these beasts were more hot and more busy than would the great Turk/ and that because their sect is yet in manner worse than his. More over the unhappy deeds of that sect must needs be imputed to the sect self/ while the doctrine thereof teacheth and giveth occasion to their evil deeds. A christian man's evil living can not be imputed to his christendom. For his living is contrary to the doctrine and living of christ. But as for the doctrine of this unhappy sect and the living also of the beginner's of the same is such/ as every wise man well perceiveth/ doth teach and give occasion of their evil deeds. For what good deed shall he study or labour to do that believeth Luther that he hath no fire will of his own/ by which he can with help of grace either work or pray? Shall he not say to himself that he may sit still and let god alone?  
¶ what harm shall they care to forbear/ that believe Luther/ that god alone without their will worketh all the mischief that they do themself?  
¶ what shall he care how long he live in sin/ that believeth Luther/ that he shall after this life neither fel● well or ill in body nor soul till the day of doom? Will not he trow you say as the Welsheman said? If thou give her that day/ by god Davy will have thy cote to. And this thing I say but for a sample. For look his opinions thorough/ & ye shall find that they plainly set forth all the world to wredched living. If they would say that we mys●● constrew their words/ their bookꝭ be open/ & the words plain/ & inculked again & again so often & so openly the men can not err therein/ nor they by any cloak or colour defend them.  
¶ And bysydies that not only the commonalty of their sect show the effect and fruit of their doctrine by their abominable dealing as I have rehearsed you/ but also the doctors and the arch heretics themself/ well declare the holiness of their doctrine by their own living. For as they live they teach/ & as they teach they live.   

¶ The ix chapter.  
¶ The author showeth that it is a great token that the world is near at an end/ while we see the people so far fallen fro god/ that they can abide it to be content with this pestilent frantyke sect/ which no people christian or heathen could have suffered afore our days.  
IF the world were not ne●e at an end/ & the fervour of devotion so sore cooled that it were almost quenched among crysten people/ it could never have comen to pass that so many people should fall to the following of such a bestly sect. For albe it that the machometanꝭ being a sensual & filthy sect/ did in few yeris draw the great part of the world unto it/ by the self same ways which now the lutherans use/ that is to wit voluptuous living and violence/ offering delight unto the recey●ours and death to the re●usours● yet was there before this abominable sect never any sect so shameless/ that would still suowe themself for christian folk granting the scripture to be true/ and therewithal so enemyously blaspheme and oppugn the church of christ/ the sacraments of christ/ the saints of christ/ the cross of christ/ the mother of christ/ & the holy body of christ/ so shamefully living and openly professing a bestial manner of living/ clean contrary to the doctrine and life of christ. Cha●ryanys/ the Pelagyanies/ the Manytheis/ and so forth every sort of heretics/ began of such as though they wickedly erred in substantial articles of the faith/ yet was their outward fashion of living so honest and spiritual in appearance/ that men thought themself bounden the better to believe their doctrine as christian/ for some spiritual form & fashion of their crysten living. But now the chyefteyns of these execrable heresies/ both teach and use more sensual and lycencyous living/ than ever did Machomet. which though he licence men to many wyvis/ yet he never taught nor suffered his folk to break their chastise promised once and solemnly dedicated to god. where as L●ther not only teacheth monks ●re●ys and nuns to marriage/ but also being a fre●e hath married a ●unne himself/ and with her liveth under the name of wedlock in open incestuous lechery without care or shame/ because he hath procured and gotten so many shameful and shameless companions.  
¶ who could have bidden to look any man in the face that should have done thus in saint Hieromes & saint austyn's days? what speak we of saint Hierom & saint Ansteyn? who durst have done it for sh●●●e any time sins Cry●●ys birth until our wretched days? Or who synnies Adam's time among the chosen people of god? What speak we of the chosen people of god? the very paynims and Pagans idolaters kept their chastity vowed once to their false goddies/ and rather ch●se to cut of the members with which they might break it than to stand in the jeopardy to break it. And in Rome of old time when they were Paganis/ if any vestal virgin (for so called they their nuns) were vyola●ed/ they not only bet the man to death with roddies in the market place/ and buried the woman quick/ but also reckoned it for a wonderful monster/ and a token of wrath and indignation of their goddies toward their city and empire/ putting thereupon themself in devour with open processions and prayers and sacrifice/ to procure the recovery of their God's favour. Is it not than now a wondrous case to see/ synnies that the chastity promised ●nys to god/ and also to the false idols under the name of god/ hath alway been sith the world began/ among christian and heathen so highly esteemed/ that the brekers thereof have alway been by the comm●ne consent of the hole world/ as a thing taught by god unto good men/ and by nature to all men taken/ reputed/ and punished as abominable wicked wredches/ is it not I say now a wondrous thing to see that in the flock of crystemple/ which by christ himself/ by all his apostles/ by all his holy martyrs/ confessors/ and doctors/ by all his hole church/ all the hole time of these xu C. yeris passed/ chastity hath been more highly praised & estymed than ever it was of any other sect sith the world began/ we should see now a lewd frere so bold & so shameless to marry a nun & bide thereby/ and be taken still for a christian man/ and over that for a man meet to be the beginner of a new sect/ whom any honest man should vouche●●●fe to follow? If our lord god/ whose wisdom is infinite/ should have sit and studied to devise a way/ whereby he might cast in our face the confusion of our folly/ how might he have founden a more effectual/ openly to show us the shame of our sin/ than to suffer us that call ourself christian folk/ to see such a rabble spring up among us/ as professing the faith and religion of christ/ let not to set at nought all the doctors of Crysties church/ and lean to the only authority of frere tuk and mad Maryon?   

¶ The ten chapter.  
¶ The author in●●yeth against this detestable article of this ungracyꝰ sect/ whereby they take away the liberty of man's fire will/ and ascribe all thing to destiny.  
SUrely as I say this world is either after the words of saint Iohn/ Cotuspositus in maligno/ all set in malice/ that we be so prone wittingly to take so wrong a way/ or else is it in a marvelous blindness/ if we can neither perceive by the nowghty living of the persons that their sect is nought/ nor can perceive by their doctrine that their sect must make their people nought/ their heresies being such as ye have herd. whereby every man that any faith hath and any manner knowledge of christian belief/ may well and surely perceive that Luther and all his of spring/ ● all those that favour and set forth his sect/ be very limbs of the devil/ & open enemies to the faith of christ. And not only to the faith & manhood of our saviour christ/ but also against the holy ghost & the father himself/ and utterly against all goodness of the godhead/ as those that wretchedly lay all the wight and blame of our sin to the necessity and constraint of God's ordonance/ affirming that we do no sin of ourself by any power of our own will/ but by the compulsion and handy work of god/ And that we do not the sin ourself/ but that god doth the sin in us himself. And thus these wredched heretics with this blasphemous heresy alone/ lay more vylaynouse rebuke to the great majesty of god/ than ever any one ribald laid unto another. For who was there ever that laid unto another all the par●yculere evil deeds of any one other man/ where these ●ybawldys lay to the charge and blame of god/ all the malice and mischief from the first fault to the last/ that ever was wrought or thought by man woman or devil? And by this give they wredches great boldness to follow their fowl affections/ as things after their opinion more verily wrought in them by god/ than the best minds be in good men. And that it were therefore in vain for them to resist their sinful appetyties. And if they shall be dampened/ yet they say it shall be long or they feel it. For Luther saith that all souls shall sleep & feel neither good nor bad after this life till domes day● and than they yt●hal be dampened/ shallbe dampened he saith for no deserving of their own dedis/ but for such evil dedis as god only forced & constrained them unto & wrought in them himself/ using them in all those evil dedis but as a deed instrument/ as a man heweth with an hatchet. And the god shall damn all that shallbe dampened for his own dedis only which him self shall have done in them/ & finally for his only pleasure because it liked him not to choose them as he did his choose people. whom they say that he chose in such wise before the bygynning of the world/ that they can never sin.   

¶ The xi chapter.  
¶ The messenger saith that how so ever Luther & his followers in almain believe/ yet he can not think that such as be Lutheranis in England/ of whom sum he saith have seemed good & honest be so mad & unhappy to believe that all hangeth upon destiny. whereupon the author showeth the contrary/ and that they be nought in deed seem they never so good. & for proof that how so ever they colour their words they mean that all dependeth upon only destiny/ he rehearseth a certain dyspycyon had with an heretic detected to the bishop & examined/ the author being present/ where the heretic being learned & a preacher/ made many shyf●ys to make it seem that in his evil words he meant but well.  
When your friend had herd all this he said at last that albeit the words of Luther seemed very plain toward the afferming of such opinions/ yet were the things so far out of all frame/ that it gave him occasion to doubt le●t Luther meant not all thing so evil as his w●●dys seem to way to. And if he so meant himself with other of his flock & affynyte in Almaigne/ yet thought your friend that such as here favour & follow his sect in England/ of whom sum seem right honest & far from his manner of living/ do not so take his words nor understand them that way/ but construe them to some better sense. ¶ Forsooth q I they can not but know his open living in lechery with his lewd leman the nun. And that all the captains of the sort/ some late cartusiences/ some obseruaunties/ some of other relygions/ & all now apostatas & wedded/ live in like manner & teach other the same. And by this can they not doubt but that their doctrine is nought/ except themself allow that way for good. now as for their own goodness ye find few that fall to the sect/ but the sone after they fall in to the contempt of prayer & fasting & of all good works under the name of ceremonies. And if any do other wise/ it is for some purpose for the while to blind the people and keep themself in favour/ while they may find the time by leisure to fashion and frame them better to their purpose/ which in the beginning if they showed themself plainly/ could happily not abide to hear them. Of which their demeanour/ & that in these heresies they mean here no better than Luther doth himself/ I have had good experyens/ and among many other things this that I shall show you. It happened me to be lately present/ where as one in the Lutheranꝭ books deeply lerned●& of troth neither in holy scripture nor in secular literature unlearned/ as I perceive not only by the testimony of other men and by the degrees that he had taken in the university/ but ●●o by his words and his writing/ was in the presence of right honourable virtuous and very cunning persō● e●●●●ned. For he was at that time in ward for heresy/ because that b●yng learned and using to here confessions/ & among many folk meetly well allowed in preaching/ & thereby growing in good ●pynyon & favour of many good simple people/ abused all these o●ē & apparent good things/ to the secret sowing & ●●●ting forth of Luther's heresies. And had for the intent not only taught & written & covertly corrupted divers light & lewd persons/ but also had bought great number of ye●okꝭ of Luther/ & wyclyffe/ Hu●●●/ & zuynglyus/ & such other heretics/ ● of many one sort divers bokis/ to be delivered 〈◊〉 he could find occasion unto young scholars of the universities/ such as he thought of iouth & lightness most likely to be soon corrupted. This man I say being examined & long keeping himself close from disclosing of the matter/ & more ready to go straight to the devil wt●●ēg & false forswering/ than to be acknown of his evil demeanour & confess the tr●●th/ at the last perceiving the matters ꝑtely by the confession of other folk/ ꝑtely by his own hand writing/ so farforth comen to light that they could in no wise be cloaked/ thā●●gā he sum what plainly to confess & declare/ not only what he had d●n for the setting forth of the sect/ but also ꝑtely what opinions he & other his fellows had held & were of. Setting never the les●● all the colours he could to make it seem/ the though the w●●dys which they spa●e or wrote 〈◊〉 strange & contrary to rygh●● byleue/ yet the●fect of their meaning was not much dyscrepant from the true fayth● of Crysties church. How be it wh●̄ he was reasoned withal/ & saw that he could 〈◊〉 ● so shift it of/ but that for any colour's 〈◊〉 could find one part of his tale ever contraryed another/ at last he showed plainly their opinions/ & laid forth as in part for his own excuse as things inducing him thereto/ all the textis of scripture/ by which they ptend to ꝑue their ●pynyōs true. Among which opinions when he came to thopynyonopinion/ by which they hold the only faith alone is sufficient without good works/ unto that he said in the beginning that they meant nothing else thereby/ but the men should put their faith in god ●●●ses & hope to be saved thereby & that they should not put their trust in their works/ for that would turn them t● pride. ¶ Then was it answered him that he & his fellows could not mean so. For if they did/ thou could they not blame the church as they do/ making as though the church had all this while hid the t●●e faith from the people/ & that themself were now shent for pching ye●●●spell truly. For if this were their meaning/ they then meant none other than every comen pchor of the church hath always pched bifore luthers days. For what pchor hath not told the people that ꝑable of the poor publycan ashamed of his l●nys/ & the proud pharysey boasting of his virtues? who hath not bod then do wel● And albe it the god will reward them for their good dedis/ yet put not their trust in themself & their own dedis/ but in God's goodness who hath not told them that they should as god biddeth them in the gospel that when they have done all that they tam do/ yet say to themself we be but unꝓsitable seruaū●●/ we have done but our dutre. These things & such other the church hath always taught/ against the putting of a proud trust in our own dedis/ because that we can not always surely judge our own dedis for the blind favour that we ●ere toward ourself & therefore was it said to him/ ●f ye move but thus as the church m●●eth/ than would ye preach but as the church preacheth/ and not blaspheme the church in your sermons/ as though y●●yg●n true preaching of the gospel/ & that the church had hitherto preached false. And also ye must needs mean sum other thing. For Luther whose sect ye confess that ye have leaned unto/ writeth in this matter ●a●re otherwise. For he saith plain that faith alone without any good works doth iustyfye us and sufficeth for our salvation. Then answered he that there in they meant none other/ but that faith is sufficient alone/ if one happen after he have faith and baptism to die e●e he have time to do enyo good works. Than was it said unto him/ if they should ●●che this opinion under such wor●ys for a great secrets mystery new found out/ and thereby blame the church for mys●●●hy●ge the people/ as though the church taught them to put less trust in god and in faith of christ than they should do/ & induced them to put their trust in themself and their own good works/ they used themself marvelously/ considering that if they inent none other/ the church and they meant all one thing. But they cold not mean so. For than why should they blame the church/ that saith not the contrary. And also if they meant none other thing/ few Words would serve them. They should not need so often to speak thereof. For than that tale can do little good here or ●ny where else where folk be crystened in their cradles. For either they die ere they have time to do good works/ and than they be to young to here that sermon/ or else they ly●e & have time to do good works. And than that sermon were not wholesome for them/ that good works need not but only faith is sufficient without them. And when the people take it as ye speak it/ that faith alone is enough for them/ than is it now a bare gloze for you to say that ye m●nt not so/ but only that faith alone had been enough for them/ if they had died in their swaddling clowtis. ¶ To this he said that they thought also that faith alone doth iustyfye a man without ●ny good works/ not only in children but also in every age. For when so ever a man that hath been a sinner doth repent and amend in his mind with a full faith in the promises of god/ he is justified ere ever he do any of these good works/ almose/ fasting/ or any suc●e other. For he can not work well till he be good all ready. For as christ saith/ Arbour mala non potest bonum ●ructū●acere/ an evil tree can not bring forth good fruit/ and therefore sith good works be good fruit/ an evil man can not work them. Whereby it appeareth well that the man is justified before by his faith alone ●oute the works/ and then out of that faith groweth the good fruit of good works. But faith did iustyfye the man before/ and the man was as good before the works as he is after. For his faith did iustyfye him. And as for the works be but things that the faith in the man or the man by the faith bringeth forth/ as the tree bringeth forth his sevys and can do none other/ faith being in the heart. ¶ Then was it said unto him that in this tale he seemed to make the good works to be much like a shadow that the body maketh of ne●●●● while it standeth in the senne and is never the better therefore. And then was it asked him whither a 〈◊〉 must not if his faith shall serve him 〈◊〉 charity therewith and a purpose to do good works. ●●s quoth he that he must if he have age and discretion the● to. Then was it answered him that then was all go that himself had ●ayd before. For than did not faith alone iustyfye the man/ but the charity wy●h the purpose of good works/ m●●●● by his own granting needs go there with/ or else would his faith iustyfye nothing at all. For if he had never so greater faith and never so sure a belief in God's promises/ yet if he purposed to do no good deeds therewith/ but peradventure harm/ he should have little justification by his ●nly faith. And therefore it was false that he had said a man is never the better for his good works/ whyl● his good works be so taken and reputed with god/ that the purpose of them yet undone so farforth worketh to his justification/ that with out that purpose he can not be justified. And it is also false that he said that ●aythe alone justifieth a man/ wh●n himself is fain to grant that faith without charity and purpose of good works can not justify/ which is a●● with to say as faith alone can not iustyfye. ¶ To this he answered that he had said that faith only was sufficient/ and that faith alone doth iustyfye/ because that if a man had faith/ it could not be but that he should work good works. For faith he said could ne●er be idle/ as the fire must needs burn and gy●e heat. And therefore as a man may say the fire is enough to burn● a tree though he speak nothing of heat/ and yet the fire doth it by h●te/ and a 〈◊〉 may say the fire maketh me see by night and yet the fire doth it but by the light/ so may a man say that faith doth save us/ though faith do ye without hope and charity and other virtuous works/ because that faith hath always good hope and charity with it/ & can not but work well/ no more than the fire can be without h●te & light and burn all combustyble things that it may towghe and ●ary with. ¶ Then was it said unto him that albeit a man might so speak by the fire/ yet would not this thing serve their sects. For he that saith fire alone is enough to burn/ would not say nay to him that would say the fire could not burn but if had heat. But your sect scorneth & ●lameth the church/ because the church saith that faith will not suffice but y● it have charity and good works. For else ye had no cause in this matter to preach contrary to the church. More ●uer where ye say that faith hath alway good hope with it/ that seemeth not always true. For he that hopeth that by faith alone he shall be saved with out any good works/ as Lutherans do believe in deed/ he hath an evil hope and a damnable. Now where ye say that ye pr●ch●/ faith alone to be sufficient because that faith hath alway charity joined therewith/ if this were true/ why preach ye not as well that charity alone is sufficient/ which wer● as near the troth as the t●cher. Now where ye make all the ground upon this/ that faith hath ever charity therewith/ and that it can not be but that charity which is in deed the thing that specially bringeth forth good works much more properly than faith/ for ●●th bringeth them forth by charity when it is joined therewith/ as the apostle saith/ Fides que per dilectionem operatur/ faith worketh by charity where ye say it can not be but that this charity is alway joined unto faith/ this ground will fail you/ & make all your foundation false/ & all your building fall. Thapostell Poule in many placis of his epistles saith the contrary thereof. For he saith that if a man have so great faith that he might by the force of his faith work miracles/ and also such fervent affection to the faith that he w●ld give his body to the fire for the defence thereof/ yet if he lacked charity/ all his faith sufficed not ¶ In good faith quoth your friend he was well and properly answered. But yet me thinketh he might have replied a little again to tho●e words of saint Poule/ and might have avoided them well with other words of his own. For where he writeth also to the Galathes/ that if any angel would come down from heaven & preach a contrary gospel to that that he had preached all ready/ acoursed should he be and not to be believed/ he did not in these words affirm nor intend thereby that ever it should so be/ or could so be/ that any angel so should do in deed. For he knew right well it was impossible that any angel of heaven should come down and tell a false tale. But he said it only by a manner of speaking which is among learned men called yperbole/ for the more vehement expressing of a mater● no thing meaning else but that the gospel which he had preached/ was the plain sure & undowtable troth/ against which no man were to be believed. And in like wise me thinketh the man that ye spe●e of might have said/ that though saint Poule said/ If he had so great faith y●●e were able thereby to remove hills/ except he had charity therewith it would not serve him he meant thereby no more but to show the great need that men have to charity/ and not that it were possible that faith could be without cherite/ no more than he meant that an angel may come down from heaven to preach a false faith. And therefore might it yet stand right well with all those words of saint paul/ that faith can not fail of salvation/ sith it can not fail of charity. And of troth m● seemeth as that man said that faith can not be idle but it must needs work well. ¶ Forsooth quoth I the man lacked you there/ for he found not that gloze. Which though he had/ yet would it not have served him. For between those two placies of saint paul y● there great difference. For in the t●n● is there an impossible excess and yperbole/ in the t'other is there not so. For angels of heaven never can come down and teach a false faith. But faith may be severed from charity. And in the tone place he none other thing intended than as ye say to show by that great exceeding word/ the undoubted troth of the faith which himself had preached. But in the other place his specy●ll purpose was to teach the Galath●●s/ that they should neither trust the any gift of nature/ or gift of god above nature/ or any manner virtue/ alm●yse deed/ faith/ or other/ were able to stand them in ●●●de without charity. And this did he specially/ for that he would that no man should be in such error/ as to reckon that either excellent gift of eunning/ great labour spent in preaching/ great almose spent on poor people/ or a very fervent faith/ might suffice to their salvation if cheryte lakked. Against which error he doth in such wise exhort them to charity/ in avoiding the rancour/ which by occasion of schisms did arise among th●● that ●e showed them precisely/ that without charity they lost clearly the merit of all their other virtues and graces that god had given them/ cunning/ almose deed/ faith/ and all/ putting th'example by his own self/ which though he were a chosen servant and apostle/ yet y● he were in language equal withal the hole world and with angels to/ and had all the cunning that possible could be had/ and the spirit of all prophecy therewith/ & would give all his goods in almose/ and had also all the full faith so great that it su●●yced to work wundres with/ and so fervent that he would abide to be burned for it/ yet if he laked charity/ all this would not serve him. So that ye may see now that your gloze would not have relieved this man. For though none angel could come down and teach an untruth/ & therefore the words that ye allege can be none otherwise taken than as ye say by way of exce●●● and yperbole/ to declare the vehemence of his mind in the matter of faith which he than spoke of/ yet this other place of saint paul that was laid against that heretic that I speak of/ as great and vehement as the words be/ yet do they plainly prove that the apostle showeth/ the faith may be without charity/ & that doth so great that it may suffice to the doing of great wonders/ and so fervent that it may suffer a painful death/ and yet for fewte of charity not sufficient to s●●●●cyon/ and that this may hap as well in faith as in almose deed/ which the apostle putteth in the same case. And therefore where that man said and ye seem to confirm the same/ that faith can not be idle from the working of good works/ the apostle to show the contrary/ and that all the workys of faith though they seem never so good/ be yet nought in deed if they be not wrought with charity/ commendith only the faith that workyth by charity/ sygnyfyeng that all other works of faith be not available. And surely faith alone without charity may be bysydies this not only idle with out the business of good works/ but also for lack of good works it may be utterly deed. And therefore as it was there objected unto that man/ the holy apostle james saith to them that taken faith sufficient for salvation with out good works/ that they be worse than devils. For he saith that the devils do believe/ & tremble for the fere of god. And that men which by the hope & boldness of their believe think their faith without good works sufficient/ be worse than devils/ because they stand out of dread of god/ that mana●●eth unto them the pains of hell except they do good works. Without which saint jamys for a final conclusion saith that the faith is but deed.  
¶ After such reasoning the man said that he and tother Lutherans when they spoke that only faith was sufficient/ they mean not of a deed faith that is without charity and good works/ but a very faith that is quick & worketh by charity/ and that such faith he thought was sufficient. ¶ But than was it answered/ that neither they nor he could mean so. For how could they call that thing faith only that is joined with charity and good works? Or how can it stand that they mean that faith which by charity worketh good works/ wh●n they say that it is sufficient alone without good works/ and that it is as Luther saith great sin and sacrilege to to go about to please god by good works/ and not by only faith? How could they say that only faith sufficeth/ if they should mean that without charity and good works no faith sufficeth For it were a mad thing to say that faith alone sufficeth without good works/ & therewith to say the with out good works faith sufficeth nothing. And so was it said unto him that therefore though they colour their matters when they be examined/ yet it can not be but that he and other Lutherans where they sow their heresy/ mean plainly as they speak/ the folk need no more but believe/ and than how so ever they live shall make no matter. For no thing as Luther saith can damn a christian man/ save only lack of byleue● For all other synnies if believe and faith stand fast/ be quite absorpte and supped up he saith in that faith.  
¶ When this man was with such reasoning and much better than I do or can rehearse you somewhat sore preced upon/ than brought he forth another gloze and said/ that they meaned not but that faith if it should suffice for salvation/ must needs have with it charity and good works/ or else it were no very faith/ as a deed man is no very man. How be it he said that though it be no thing without good works/ yet when it is joined with good works/ all the merit cometh of our faith only/ and no part thereof for our works. So that god giveth us heue● for our faith only/ and nothing for ou● works. For though he give it not for our faith if we lack good works/ yet if we have both/ he regardeth not in his reward our works any thing but only our faith. And he said that for this cause they say that only faith causeth our salvation.  
¶ To this it was answered that if this opinion were true/ yet it well appeared that this is not the thing that they mean. For the words of Luther and Pomerane and all the archeretyques of that sect be very plain. For they say that it is sacrilege to go about to please god by any good works but faith only. And than why should good works be joined to faith/ or why should god exact good works of us? whereof should they serve/ if they be nothing pl●saunt to god? And when Luther saith that nothing can damn any christian man but only lack of believe/ he showeth manifestly that we not only need no good works with our faith/ but also that so we have faith/ none evil workys can hurt us. And so he meaneth plainly that faith only with out any good works joined thereto/ and also with all kind of evil works joined thereto/ is sufficient to save us. And therefore if ye be of his sect (was it said to the man) ye can not avoid but that this is your very doctrine how so ever ye colour it.  
¶ Than was it ferther asked him if their meaning should be such as he had said/ what should move him and other his fellows so to think/ that in faith and good works joined together/ the good works were nothing worth/ but that all the merit should be in the faith/ and all the thank and reward should be given to the faith/ and right ●ought to the good works.  
¶ 〈◊〉 he answered that many texts of scripture induced them there unto/ & special texts of saint Poule/ Fides justificat/ faith justifieth. And Credidu Abraam deo/ et reputatum est ●i ad justiciam/ Abraam believed god/ & it was accounted in him for justice. Si ex operibus/ habet quidem gloriam sed non apud deum/ if he were justified by the works/ than had he glory/ but not with god. Si ex operibus/ Cristus pro nobis gratis mortuus est. If we be justified by works/ than did christ die for us for nought. Gratꝭ redempti estis/ ye be redeemed freely. And thereby may we see that our works were part of the cause. And yet specially these words of our saviour christ he said much moved them to be of that mind/ where he saith Qui crediderit et baptisatus fuerit saluus erit/ He that believeth & is baptized shall be saved. where christ requyryth nothing but only faith.  
¶ By all these texts he said that plainly appeared that all our salvation came of faith/ as Abraam was justified by faith and not by his works. And that if our good works should be the cause of our salvation/ than as saint Poule saith christ died for nought. For he needed not to die for us/ if our own works might save us. Nor we were not redeemed freely/ if we should redeem ourself with the payment of our own works.  
¶ To this was it answered that those texts and all other alleged for that purpose/ signify none other but that after the faith of christ brought in to the world by the incarnation & passion of our blessed saviour/ men are no le●ged bound to the observance of Moses' law. Nor that all the law of Moses'/ nor all the good works of man/ were not able to save one man of themself/ nor without faith/ and that Cryst freely redeemed us. For neither had he or ever shall have any reward of us for the bitter pains taken in his blessed passion for us. Nor never deserved we unto him that he should so much do for us. Nor the first faith/ nor the preaching thereof/ nor the first justification of man thereby/ nor the sacrament and fruit of our baptism/ was not given to the world for any good works that ever the world had wrought/ but only of God's mere lybetal goodness. But yet there is never a text of them nor any other in all scripture so meant/ that after the baptism the faith only shall save us without good works/ if we live and have reason to do them. For though it be said by the mouth of our saviour/ he that believeth shall be saved/ where he nothing speaketh of any good works/ yet meaneth he not that he that believeth shall be saved/ without good works if he live to do them. For else why should ye not as well say that men shall be saved for keeping of the commandments with out faith/ sith christ saith if y● wyl●e entered in to the kingdom of heaven keep the commandments. And saith also/ do that and thou shalt have life. At which time he spoke no word of any faith. He saith also in holy scripture/ Date clemosinā et omnia munda sunt vobis/ give almose/ and all is clean in you. which words if men should as largely construe for the pre●mynence of almose deed/ as ye th●● are of Luther's sect conster the texts that speak of faith/ they might take a false gloze and colour to say/ that with out faith or penance either/ or any other virtue/ almose deed alone sufficeth for salvation/ how wredehedly so ever we lead our life bysyde. But if we should so say of almose deed/ we should say wrong/ as ye do when ye say so of faith. For like wise as it is understand that faith must needs go with good works if they shall be fruitful/ though it be not spoken of in those te●tꝭ that speak of good works/ so is it understanden that in them which after baptism have time & reason to work well/ good works must walk with faith and sorrow at heart for fault of good works/ if the faith shall aught avail them. For if both good works and final repentance of the lack of good works do fail us/ having time and reason to them/ we be like to far much the worse for our faith. And that this is thus/ we may well know by the texts of holy scripture if we set them together/ and take not one text for our part and set another at nought. ¶ To this answered he that albe it these texts set together/ do prove that faith alone doth not suffice without good works (which thing he said that himself denied not) yet he said that none of those texts prove any thing the contrary/ but that when faith and good works be joined together/ all the merit cometh yet of our faith only and nothing of our works.  
¶ Whereunto he was answered that though it so were in deed that no textis of scripture proved the contrary/ yet sith there is none that saith so/ and the hole church saith and believeth the contrary/ what reason have ye to say so/ & to give the hole merit unto faith/ & no part of the reward to good works? And now have ye much les●● reason so to do/ when the plain words of holy wryt be openly to the contrary. For did not god say to Cain/ If thou do well thou shalt have well? Saith not christ of theym● that doth almose/ A good measure shaken together/ heaped and running over/ shall they give in to your bosom? Doth not our lord show that in the day of judgement he will give the kingdom of heaven to them that have done almose/ in meet/ drink/ cloth/ and lodging/ because of their charity used in those deeds? which deeds though he will not reward with heaven except faith went with them/ yet if they were wrought in faith/ he promiseth to reward those works and not their faith only/ and that so farforth that it appeareth by the words of our saviour in the same placies/ and by his words which he said he would in the day of judgement speak to them that had by faith wrought wonders in his name without good works and charity/ whom he would than bid/ walk workers of wickedness/ and tell them that he knoweth them not. By these things I say it well appeareth/ that be a man's faith never so great/ yet if those good works fail him/ his faith shall fail of heaven.  
¶ Than said he yet again that faith can never be without go●d works. But and if a man have faith/ his faith shall not fail nor cease to bring forth the fruit of good works/ as the tree bringeth forth his levys.  
¶ Than was it answered him that he was than all the labour and the pain that thappostles took in preaching all nought & sinful? all the torments that the martyrs suffered in their passion all together sin? all the deeds of ch●ryte that christ shall as himself saith reward with everlasting life ●t the general i●dgement be they sin all to gether? Saint Poule reckoned it other wise. For he said boldly of himself/ bonum certamen certavi/ cursum consumm●●i/ et nunc superest michi corona iu●●itie/ I have laboured & striven a good strife/ I have performed my course/ now lac●eth me no more for me but the crown of justice.  
¶ Thereunto he answered that saint paul would not say that o●● deeds were suff●cyent of themself/ but that all our suffycyency● is of god. Whereunto it was answered that this was little to the matter. For no more is our faith sufficient of it self/ but the suffycyency thereof is also of god/ in ●hat our lord with our endeavour giveth us grace to believe/ and in that it ly●eth our lord of his goodness so highly to reward it. For surely as it is very true that saint Poule saith th●●/ Non sunt condign passiones h●i●● vite ad futuram gloriam que revelabitur in no●is/ all that ever we can suffer in this world/ is not worthy the glory to come that shall be showed in us (For what thing cold a silly wretched creature do or suffer for god in the brief time of this short life/ that might of right require to be rewarded everlastingly/ with such in●●●ym●ble joy as neither ●ye hath seen nor tongue can express/ nor heart can imagine or conceive) so y● it also as true th●t all the faith we ●●ue or can have can of his own nature as little or much less deserve heaven/ as our other good dedis. For what gret● thing do we to god/ or what great thing could we ask him of right/ because we believe him? as though he were much beholden unto us/ in that we vouchsafe to trust him/ as though his worship hung in our hands/ and his estimation lost if he were out of credence with us. And therefore among many foolish words of Luther/ as foolish as ever heretic spoke/ he never sp●●e a more frantic/ than in that he saith that god hath need of our faith. For he saith that god hath no need of our good works/ but he hath need of our faith/ and hath need that we should believe him. Truth is it that he nedeth● neither our faith nor our works. But sith that he hath determined tha● he will not save us without both if we be of discretion to have both/ therefore have we need of both. And yet neither is there the tone nor the tot●er nor they both together between them/ that be of their own nature worthy the reward of heaven. But as we se● y● one ounce of gold whereof ten pound weight were not of his own nature toward man worth one ounce of wheat/ nor one hundred pound weight thereof of the nature self worth one silly sheep/ is yet among men by a price appointed and agreed worth many hole sheep/ and many a pound weight of breed/ so hath it liked the liberal goodness of god to set as well our faith as our deeds/ which were else both● twain of their own nature right little in value at so high a price/ as non● is able to buy them and pay for them but himself/ because we should work● th●̄ only to him/ and have none other pay master nor not other chapman to sell our ware and our work unto/ but only him. Except we would be so mad & towards him so unkind that we would sell it to another for less/ nather then to him for more. As some do/ that had liefer travail far of and sell for less/ than they would for more sell to their neighbours at home. And as do these foolish ypocrytꝭ/ which rather than they would sell their work to god for everlasting joy of heaven/ cell it all to the world for the peevish pleasure of the vain praise puffed out of poor mortal men's mouths with a blast of wind. ¶ Unto this he said that very true it was that all our works took their value & price after thacceptacyon of god/ & as he list to allow them. But he said that god rejected/ dysalowed/ and set at nought all the works of infidels wrought without faith. For sine fide impossibile est placere deo/ wntout faith it is impossible to please god. S● o● his faithful chosen people that believe and trust in him/ he accepteth & alloweth all the deeds. And that is said he/ well proved by the words of saint Iohn/ Nichil damnationis est hiis qui sunt in Christo Jesus. And albe it that in the rehearsing of the communication had with this man/ it may well be that my remembrance may partly miss the order/ partly peradventure add or my●ysh in some part of the matter/ yet in this point I assure you faithfully/ there is no manner change or variance from his opinion/ but that after many shyfties he brought it plainly to this point at last/ that he and his fellows that were of Luther's sect/ were firmly of this opinion/ that they believed that god worketh all in every man good works and bad. How be it no such as he foreknoweth to be dampened/ no manner works be profyfable to them. For god taketh them for nought be they never so good. But on the other side in those he hath choose fro the beginning & predestinate to glory/ all works be good ynog● For god accepteth and taketh them well a worth be they never so bad.  
¶ It was asked him than whither that the forsaking of christ by Peter was allowed and well approved by christ. And whither that aduour●y & māslaugh●ter was by god well allowed in david. ¶ Whereunto he said that because they were choose and predestinate/ therefore those sins were not/ nor the sins of any such men be not imputed unto them. But god because he hath from the beginning chosen them to everlasting bliss/ therefore he ●rre●teth no blame of their deeds unto them/ but all the works of a just man that is to say quoth he of a person by god predestinate to glory/ turn him to good/ how evil so ever they be. And this for conclusion he declared to be their very plain mind and opinion/ for all the clockies that he set upon the matter before/ to make it seem that they men in their words none harm. And there it clearly appeared/ that he and his f●● which in their preaching do covertly & craftily sect out the damnable sect of Luther/ hoop and ga●e always for some other time/ in which they trust openly & boldly to play the ravenous w●luys & devour the sheep & mar the hole flock. And in that mean s●as●̄ be content to play the wily foxꝭ & wyrry simple soulis & poor lambs/ as they may catch them strageling from the fold/ or rather like a false shepeherdꝭ do● that would but back in sight/ & s●me to fetch in the sheep/ & yet kill a lamb in a corner. Men speak of some that bear two faces in one hood. I never saw any that more verily play that pagaunte/ than do this kind of such prech● ours. For in preaching to the people they make a visage as though they came straight from heaven to teach them a new better way & more true than the church teacheth/ or hath taught this many hundred year. And then to the church in examination they show themself as poor men of middle earth/ & as though they taught none other wise than the church doth. But in conclusion when they be well examined/ & with much work that falsehood of their cloaked collusyon is pulled of/ then appeareth there all the malicious treachery/ & what poison they put forth under the cloak of honey. As this man that I tell you of labouring all that he might by many means to make it seem/ that in preaching/ that faith alone was sufficient for our salvation/ & that good works were nothing worth/ had nothing intended but well & according to the doctrine of the church/ & that he & his fellows never meant otherwise than the church meaneth/ yet in conclusion he plainly showed himself/ that he & his fellows intend thereby to bring the people to this point at last/ that all thing handgeth only upon destiny/ & that the liberty of man's will should serve of right nought/ nor men's dedis good or bad made no difference afore god/ but that in his chosen people nothing myslyketh him be it never so bad/ and in the other sort nothing pleaseth him be it never so good/ the very worst and most my schevouse heresy that ever was thought upon/ and thereto the most mad. For as it is said unto him/ if this were true/ whereto preach they at all? and counsel any man o●● thing or other? What fruit cold come of their exhortation if all should hang upon destiny? There were showed unto him many things for the reproof of that unreasonable and detestable heresy/ and that the texts which he alleged/ nothing made for his purpose. For as for that he alleged of saint paul/ that there is no damnation to them that be in christ Iesu/ was meant of good faithful folk that live virtuously/ and therefore where he saith that there is no damnation to them that be in christ Iesu/ it followeth forthwith in the text/ those that walk not after the flesh. Meaning plainly that there is no man so planted in christ Iesu/ but & if he follow the fleshly ways of his sensual appetyties/ he shallbe dampened for all his faith in christ. For else it should follow upon this false opinion/ if god accept well all the works of them that are predestinate/ than is sin no sin. But in the other sort whom god hath not predestinate. And than is it as much to say as no man may lawfully be nought no man lawfully do theft or adultery/ nor lawfully be a manquellour/ nor lawfully forswear himself but goddies good sons and his special chosen children.  
¶ Now where he alleged the words of saint paul/ q just omnia cooperantur in bonum/ To a just man all things work together to his we'll/ it was said that it meant that all the evils that men did unto them/ turn them to good & be to good men occasion of their merit/ as was to job all the torments by which the devil assaulted his patience/ and all the painies that Pagan tyrau●tys did unto the holy martyrs. And sometime the sin in which a good man is by God's sufferance permitted to fall/ is an occasion to him of a greater good/ or of thavoiding of a greater sin. As theschewing of an high spiritual pride/ in to which peradventure the continual coarse of his virtuous life might by the devils subtle suggestion have brought him/ whereas one foul act of lechery hath showed him his f●ayletye/ and in stead of pride brought him in to penance and humility/ and make him run the faster forward in virtue/ because he hath letted and sit still a while in sin/ and therefore will he run forth to win again in his way that he before cast himself behind. But it was not meant that ever their synnies so turned them to good/ that they were accepted the more and rewarded the better for their evil deeds. Nor god remitteth not the sins of his chosen people/ nor forbeareth not to impute the blame thereof unto them/ because they be his chosen people. For he accepteth not folk for their persons but for their merits/ but where as they have sinned/ he punisheth as well them as other/ and sometime more because their formare good living somewhat of congruence deserved that they should by punishment be called again to grace/ and not be for their fault so soon cast clean away/ as some other obdurate in malice and evil cu●●ume of sin/ deserve to have the grace of god & his calling ●n never more offered unto them/ and unto some it is o●●red that will not receive it. God called on masyd by the prophet Nathan/ and yet punished his of●●re. christ looked on Peter after he had forsaken and forsworn him/ and Peter therewith took repentance. God looked on judas & kissed him to/ and he turned to none amendment. Now god from the beginning before the world was created/ foreseeing in his divine pseyence or rather in the therny●e of his godhead presently beholding/ that Peter would repent & judas would despair/ and that the tone would take hold of his grace the t'other would reject it/ accepted and chose the tone & not the other/ as he would have made the contrary choice/ if he had foreseen in them the contrary change.   

¶ The xii chapter.  
¶ The author inveheth against the most pestilent sect of these Lutherans/ which ascribe our salvation and damnation and all our deeds to destiny.  
BUt now for to say as that heretic said after all his shyfties at last that all that shall be saved shall be saved only because that god from the beginning hath chosen them/ & because of that choice all their deeds be good/ or if they be evil yet god for cause of his eternal choice taketh them well in wurth and imputeth no blame unto them/ and that all other people whom god hath created shall be dampened only because he would not choose them/ and that all their deeds either be nought or not well accepted/ because god list not in the beginning to choose them/ and that he worketh both in the tone sort & in the other all their deeds himself alone/ and they do nothing therein themself/ and so that god whose goodness is inestymable doth damn so hounge a number of people to intolerable and interminable torments only for his pleasure/ and for his own deeds wrought in them only by himself/ this false opinion is as the king's highness most virtuously writeth in his epistle to Luther/ the most abominable heresy that ever was. And surely it is so far against all holy scripture well understanden/ so far against all natural reason/ so utterly subverting all virtue and all good order in the world/ so highly blaspheming the goodness and majesty of almighty god in heaven/ that it is more than wonder how any man earthly that hath either one spark of wit in his head/ or toward god or man one drop of good will in his heart/ should not abhor to here it. For this execrable heresy maketh god the cause of all evil/ and such cruel appetite as never tyrannte and tormentor had/ ascribe they to the benign nature of almighty god. For where as our ●auyour christ took upon himself all our sin/ and of his endless pity bore the pain of them for our sake/ this damnable heresy holdeth/ that god should be first so untrue that he should lay unto us the wight and blame of his own faults/ that is to wit the evil works which as they say be not wrought by us but in us by god/ and thereunto they make him so dyspy●uouse & cruel/ that for his own dedis so done he should have a perpetual delight & pleasure to torment us. Now turn they that tryable of holy scripture quite in to poison. For this false error once taken for truth/ whereof should all scripture serve? whereof should serve the exhortations to good works if men neither any do/ nor any can do/ neither of themself nor with help of grace? or if eny be done by them which be not chosen/ their deeds be not accepted of god/ because he hath not choose their persons/ whereof shall serve the prechyngys' and exhortations to the faith/ if the hearers have no lyb●rtye of their own will/ by which they may together with God's grace labour to submit and subdue the rebellion of their reason to the obedience of faith and credence of the word of god? whereof shall serve all the dehortations and comminations and thretties in scripture/ by which god calleth men from sin and evil works/ if the world were once of mind that they believed after Luther/ that no man doth any evil deed himself/ but god doth them all himself. And that every man is either chosen or unchosen. And if we be of the chosen sort/ none evil deed can damn us. And if we be of the unchosen sort/ no good deed can avail us. He that thus believeth/ what careth he what he doth/ except for the fere of temporal laws of this world. And yet if his false faith he strong/ he forceth little of them also. For he shall think dying in his bed or on the gallows/ cometh not after his deserving but hangethall upon destiny. And therefore all laws they set at nought. And they hold that no man is bounden to obay● any/ but would be at liberty to believe what they list/ and do what they list/ as they say that god doth with us not what we deserve but what himself lytte.  
¶ Whereof shall reason serve if man had no power of himself toward the direction of his own works/ but that all our works were brought forth of us without our will/ worse than the works be in deed out of a brute best/ by the appetite of his sensual macyon/ For ours should be by this opinion brought forth/ as the leaves come out of the tree/ or as a stone falleth downward/ and the smoke upward by the power of nature/ so should I say all our deeds good or bad ascend or descend by the violent hand of god maugre our minds and thus the beasts be not ashamed to say/ when they prove hourly by their own experience in themself/ that when they will do a thing they do it. And wh●n they list they leave it. I say not by themself alone without god. But his assistance is always at hand/ if we be willing to work therewith/ As the light is present with the son/ if we list not wilfully to set our eyen and wink.  
¶ Whereof should serve all laws? And where were become all good order among men/ if every mysordered wretch might allege that his mischievous deed was he destyny.  
¶ If fire will serve for nought/ & every man's deed is his destiny/ why do these men complain upon any man? Except they will say they do it because it is their destiny to do so? And why will they be angry with them that punish heretics/ except they will say bycawse it is their destiny to be so● For if they will hold them to their own sect/ and say men do them wrong to burn them for their heresies because it was their destiny to be heretics/ they may be then well answered with their own words/ as one of their sect was served in a good town in Almaigne which when he had rob a man and was brought before the judges he could not deny the dead/ but he said it was his destiny to do it and therefore they might not blame him/ they answered him after his own doctrine that if it were his destiny to steel/ and that therefore they must hold him excused/ than it was also their destiny to hang him/ and therefore he must as well hold them excused again. And undoubtedly among men these takers away of free will may never avoid that answer by reason. But than fall the wretches to the desperate ways of devils and dampened souls. Than fall they to railing and reproving the justice of god & say that himself he wrought their evil works/ and wrongfully punished them/ and cruelly created them to wretchedness. Our mother Eve laid the wight of her sin to the serpent/ and god was offended that she took not her own part to herself. But these wretches excuse themself and the devil and all/ and lay both their own fautis and the devils to/ to the blame of almighty god. But sith what so they say/ they little care in deed of hell or of heaven/ but would in this world live in lewd liberty/ and have all run to riot. And sith they see that they can not so be suffered/ nor their sect allowed in judgement/ they devise by all the ways they can to get so many to fall in to their sort/ that they may be able to turn the world up so down/ and defend their folly and false heresy by force. And this they call the liberty of the gospel/ to be discharged of all order & of all laws/ and do what they list/ which be it good/ be it bade/ is as they say nothing but the works of god wrought in them. But they hope that by this mean god shall for the while work in them many merry pastimes. Wherein if their heresy were once never bygon with violence/ though they had used all the ways they could to allecte the people by preaching/ though they had therewith done as Luther doth now/ and as Machomete did before/ bring up opinions pleasant to the people/ giving them liberty to lewdness/ yet if they had set vyo●●●● aside/ good christian people had peradventure yet unto this day/ used le●● violence toward them than they do now. And yet were heresy well worthy to be as ●ore as any other f●ut/ sith there is n● fawt that more ●●●endeth god. How be it while they forbore violence/ there was little violence done to them. And ●●●ely though god be able against all persecution to pserue and increase his faith among the people/ as he did in the beginning for all the persecution of the paynims and the jews/ yet is it no reason to look that christian princes should suffer the catholic christian people to be oppressed by turks/ or by heretics worse than turks. ¶ By my soul quoth your friend I would all the world were all agreed to take all violence and compulsion away upon all sides christian and heathen/ and that no man were constrained to believe but as he could be by grace wisdom and good words induced/ and than he that would go to god go on a God's 〈◊〉/ and he that will go to the devil the devil go with him. ¶ Forsooth quoth I and if it so were/ yet would I little doubt but that the good seed being sown among the people/ should as well come up and be as strong to save it self as y●●o●le/ and god should always be stronger than the devil. But yet be heretics and heathen men in two dyuers● cases. For in 〈◊〉 the turks 〈◊〉 and paynims would suffer the faith of christ to be pesybly preached among them/ and that we cryst●n men should therefore suffer in like wise all their sects to be preached among us/ and violence taken away by a●●ent on both the sides/ I nothing mistrust that the faith of christ should much more increase th●̄ decay. And albe it that we should find among us/ that would for the lewd liberty of these sects draw to the devil/ yet so should we find I doubt not among them also many a thousand/ that should be content to le●e that bestely pleasure & come to the faith of christ/ as came in the beginning to christendom ●●●e of the Paynysmes/ that lived as volup●uousely as the Tu●kys do 〈◊〉. But sith violence is used on that p●e●/ and Crysties faith not there suffered to be preached and taken/ he that would now suffer that sect to be preached or taught among christian men and not punish & destroy the doers/ were a plain enemy to Cryst/ as he the were content to suffer Cryst lose his worship in many so●lys on this side/ without any one w●nne in their s●ede on the other ●●de. But now if violence were withal wen on that side than this way that ye speak of were peradventure between christendom and Tu●kaye o●●●ganys if the world were a●●ented thereunto and could hold it/ none ●●yll ways. For sith we should nothing so much regard as the honour of god/ & 〈◊〉 of the crimson ●ayth/ & wynn●●ge of men's souls to heaven/ we should 〈◊〉 to dy●h●nourg●d if we mystrus●ed that his faith preached among other ●●●●●●ētly without dy●●urbaūce should not be able to prosper. And by-thing that it were/ we should hynder 〈◊〉 them punished by death. w●ll may it be th●t as we be all men●● and not angels/ some of them may 〈◊〉 some time either over fer●●●t mind or vndyscre●e zeal/ or per●as an angry and a cruel ha●te/ by which they m●y ●●●end god in the self same deed/ whereof they should else greatly me●yt. But surely the order of the spiritual law therein is doth good/ reasonable/ 〈◊〉/ & charytabl●/ and nothing desiring the death of any man therein. For 〈◊〉 the first fault he is 〈◊〉 forsweareth all heresies/ doth such penance for his fault as the bishop assigneth him. And is in such wise graciously received again in to the favour & suffragiss of Cristis church. But & if he be takē●ftesonys with the ●●me crime again/ than is he put out of the christian ●●okke by excōm●nycatiō. And by cause that being such/ his conversation were pe●ylou●e among christian men/ the chrych refuseth him/ and thereof the clergy giveth knowledge to the tēporal●y●/no● exha●tyng the prince or any man ●llys either to kill him or punish him/ but only in the presence of the temporal office/ the spyrytu●lty● not delivereth him but leaveth him to the secular hand/ and forsaketh him as one excommunicate and removed ou● of the chrystē●●okke. And though the church be not light and sudden in re●eyuyng him again/ yet at the time of his death upon his request with tokens of ●●●●ta●●ce/ he is absolved & received again.   

¶ The xiiii chapter.  
¶ The author sum what showeth that the clergy doth no wrong in leaving heretics to secular hand/ though their death follow thereon. And he showeth also thaut it is lawful to resist the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 other infidels/ and that princes b●●●●●●den thereto.  
Marry quoth your friend bu● 〈◊〉 m● thyn●eth the bishop doth 〈◊〉 much as though he kylle●● him/ wh●n he leaveth him to the secular hand in such ty●e & plac●/ as he w●●eth w●l he sh●l s●n● be burned.  
¶ I will not here enter in to the question quoth I whither a pressed mygth for any cause/ and if for any/ whither th●● for heresy without blame of y●● re●●la●yte put or command any man to death/ either by express words or under the general name of right and justice. In which matter I could no●●ack both reason authority and exempl● of holy men. But in this matter that we h●ue in hand/ it is sufficient that the bishop neither doth it nor commandeth it. For I think there will n●●eason bear it/ that when the heretic if he went abroad would with the spreading of his error infect other folk/ the bishop should have such pity upon him/ that he should rather th●n other men should punish his body/ suf●●● him to kill other men's sowlys. ¶ In deed quoth I there be some as ye say that either of high pretended pity or of a feigned observance of the counsel of christ/ would that no man should punish any heretic or infidel either/ not though they invaded us and did v● all the harm they possible could. And in this opinion is Luther and 〈◊〉 followers/ which among their other heresies hold for a plain conclusion/ that it is not lyefull to any christian m●n to fight against the Turk/ or to make against him ●ny resistance/ though he come in to christendom with a great 〈…〉 to destroy all. For th●y say that all crysten men are bounden to the counsels of christ/ by which they say that we be foreboden to defend ourself/ and that saint peter was as ye rehearsed reproved of our saviour when he struck of M●lchus ere/ albe it that he did it in the defence of his own master/ and the most innocent man that ever was. And unto this they lay as ye said in the beginning/ that sith the time the christian men first fell to fighting/ it hath ne●●r increased but alway minished and decayed. So that at this day the Turk hath estrayted us very near/ & brought it in within a right narrow compare/ & narrower shall do say they/ as long as we go about to defend crystendom by the sword. which they say should be as it was in the beginning increased/ so be continued and preserved only by patience & martyrdom. Thus holily speak these godly fathers of Luther's sect/ labouring to procure that no man should wyth●tand the Turk/ but let him win all. And when if should come to y●/ than would they as it 〈◊〉 win all agay● by their pacyente/ high 〈◊〉/ and 〈◊〉/ by which now they can not suffer to besy●●●●●●yr b●●●e●y voluptuousness/ but bro●● their bows/ & take them har●●ttys under the name of wy●ys. And where they may not fight against the Turk ●●yse up in great plā●● to ●yghe against their even crysten. It is I trow no great mastery to perceive whom they labour to please y● have y● 〈◊〉. And if the Turk hap to 〈…〉 doubt whose 〈◊〉 they will 〈◊〉 and the christian people belike 〈◊〉 none so 〈…〉 to rise up in rowties & fight aghasted cr●sten men/ & destroy as the sect hath done many a good religious house/ spoiled/ meyhemed/ & slain many a good virtuous man/ rob/ polluted/ & pulled down many a goodly church of christ.  
¶ And now where they lay for a proof/ that god were not contented with battle made against infydelꝭ/ the loss & mynyshment of crystendom synnis the guise bygan/ they far as did once an old sage father fool in Kent at such time as divers men of worship assembled old folk of the country to commune & devise about the amendment of Sandwich haven. At which time as they bygan first to enserche by reason & by the report of old men there about/ what thing h●d been th'occasion that so good an haven was in so few yeries so sore decayed/ & such sandꝭ risen/ & such shallow ●●a●tꝭ made therewith/ that right small vessels had now much work to come in at divers tydꝭ/ where great ships were within few yeris passed accustomed to ride without difficulty/ And some laying the fawt to Goodwin sandꝭ/ some to the landis Inned by divers owners in the isle of Tenate out● of the channel/ in which these was won● to cūp●ce the Isle & bring the vessels round about it/ whose course at the ebb was wont to scour the h●u●n/ which n●w th● see excluded thence/ for lack● of such course and scouring is chouked 〈◊〉 with s●nde/ as they thus alleged divers men divers causes/ there st●rte 〈◊〉 o●● good old father & said/ ye masters say every man what he will/ cha marked this matter as well as sum other. & 〈…〉 I wot how it waxed nought w●ll enough. For I knew it good/ & 〈◊〉 marked so chaue when it began to wax worse. And what hath hurt it good 〈…〉 these g●ntylmen● By my faith masters q he yonder same tenterden stepell & nothing else/ that by the mass should 'ttwere a fair fyshepole. ¶ why hath the stepell hurt that haven good father q they? Nay by'r lady masters q he ych can not tell you well why/ but chote well it hath. For by god I knew it a good haven till the steeple was builded. And by the Mary mass cha marked it well it never thr●ue sins. And thus wisely sp●ke these holy Luthera●ys/ which sowing schisms & seditions among christian people/ lay the los●e there o● to the withstanding of the Turks invasion/ & the resisting of his malice/ where they should rather if they had any reason in their heddys'/ lay it to the contrary. For when crysten princes did their devoir against myscreast●is and infydelies/ there be stories and monumenties enough that wytnes●e the manifest aid and help of god in great victories given to good christian princes by his almighty hand. But on the other side sins that thambitionambition o● christian rulers desiring each others dominion/ have set them at 〈◊〉/ and deadly dyssenssyon among themself/ whereby while each hath aspired to then●●●neynge of his own/ they have ●ytell forced what came of the comen corpse of christendom/ god for the revenging of their inordynate appet●●●●/ hath withdrawn his help and showed that he careth as little/ su●●●ynge while each of them laboureth to 〈…〉 other/ the Turk to prosper and so farforth to proceed/ that if their blind 〈◊〉 lo●e not thereto the 〈◊〉/ he shall not fail (which our lor●● forbid (within short procelle to swallow them all.  
¶ ●nd ●lbe it Cry●● forb●de saint Peter being a pressed/ and under himself prince of his presties to fight with the temporal sword/ toward thimpeachment and resistance of his fruitful passion/ whereupon depended the salvation of mankind/ which affection our saviour had before that time so sore reproved and rebuked in him/ that he called him therefore Satan/ yet is it nothing to the purpose to allege/ that by the ensample temporal princes should without the let of such spiritual profit & the sufferance of much spiritual harm suffer their people to be invaded and oppressed by infidels/ to their utter undoing not only temporal but also of a great part perpetual/ which were like of their frayletye for fere of worldly grief & incommodity/ to fall from the faith & renye their baptism. In which p●rell sith our lord would not y●●ny man should wilfully put himself/ & for the cause advised his disciples that if they were pursued in one city/ they should not cunforth & f●leh●rdely put themself in parel of renyeng christ by imp●cyēs of some intolerable ●●●mētꝭ/ but ●●ther 〈◊〉 thence in to some other place where they might serve him in quiet/ till he should suffer them to fall in such point y● th●r● were no way to escape/ & th●● would he have them abide by their takeling like mighty champions/ wherein they shall not in such case fail of his helpe● Now all be it so that christ and his holy apostles/ exhort every man to pacyent● and sufferance/ without requyting of an evil deed or making any defen●●/ but using ferther sufferance/ & 〈◊〉 also good for evil/ yet 〈◊〉 doth this counsel 〈◊〉 man that he shall of 〈…〉 the comen nature/ suffer a nother man caws●les●e to kill him/ nor letteth not any man from the defence of another/ whom he seeth innocent and invaded and oppressed by malice. In which case both nature/ reason/ & God's behest bindeth/ first the princes to the safeguard of his people with the apparel of himself/ as he taught Moses to know himself bounden to kill the Egyptians in the defence of Hebrew/ & after he bindeth every man to the help & defence of his good & harmless neyghbour●agaīst the malice & cruelty of the wrong doer. For as the holy scripture saith/ unicuique dedit deus curam de prorimo suo/ god hath given every man charge of his neighbour to keep him from harm of body and soul/ as much as may lie in his power. ¶ And by this reason is not only excusable but also commendable/ the comen war which every people takes in the defence of their country against ●myes that would invade it/ sith that every man fighteth not for the defence of himself of a puate affection to himself/ but of a crysten charity/ for the saufgarde & 〈◊〉 of all other. which reason as it ha●● place in all battle of defence/ so hath it mo●● especially in the battle by which we defend the crysten c●̄trees against the 〈◊〉/ in that we defend each other 〈…〉 the mo●● pa●ell and lo●●●/ both of 〈◊〉 substance/ bodily hurt/ and ●●●dycyon of men's souls. And 〈…〉 lyefull and enjoined also 〈…〉 private person/ how much 〈…〉 it to princes and ●●ler●/ 〈◊〉 if th●y may not 〈…〉 les wittingly suffer 〈…〉 whom they 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 my one to 〈◊〉 away a 〈…〉 may they 〈…〉 captive them all? And if they be bound to the defence and may not do it alone/ what madness were it to say that the people may not help them.   

¶ The xu chapter.  
¶ That princes be bounden to punish heretics/ & that fair handling helpeth little with many of them.  
HAd surely as the princes be bound that they shall not suffer their people by infidels to be invaded/ so be they as deeply bounden that they shall not suffer their people to be seduced & corrupted by heretics/ sith the apparel shall in short while grow to as great both with men's souls withdrawn from god/ and their goods lost/ and their bodies destroyed by comen sedition/ insurrection/ and open war/ within the bowels of their own land. All which may in the beginning be right ●asely avoided/ by punishment of those few that be the first. which few well repressed/ or if need so require utterly pulled up/ there shall fa●●● the fewer have list to follow. For if they were handled in a contrary manner/ & as ye seemed to mean in the beginning of our matter/ in s●ede of punishment/ ent●eted/ favoured/ & by fair words and rewardies brought home against/ I fear me then that ye should find ly●●ll floyte in that fastyon. For fy●●● where as they fall in to heresy by pride/ that way would make them provider/ & set the more by themself. And 〈◊〉 would many more fall thereto/ of purpo●● 〈…〉 again 〈◊〉. So that a● mammolukꝭ & genysaryes about the tur●e a●● sowdeyn have used 〈◊〉 christian their 〈…〉 their faith after/ they might be made man molukes or genysaryes as their fathers were/ and may be had in the more estimation and favour about the great turk/ even like wise within a while if we take that way with heretics we shall have young fresh fellows first become heretics/ that they may be prayed & hired after to come to Crysties faith again. I would not they were over hastily handled/ but little rigour and much mercy showed where simpleness appeared and not high heart or malice. For of such as be proud and malicious/ much proof hath been made all ready. For of some sort many full fair handled/ little change themself or come to good amendment. I told you myself and very true it was of twain that were detected of heresy unto the most honourable prelate of this realm/ & in what benign fatherly manner and liberal also he dealt with them. And yet what amendment made his gentle & courteyse intretye/ in their stubborn stomach? were they not after worse than they were before? and so used themselves that after much harm done by them/ the came in short space after to their open convyccyon? They be ye wo●e well at the first customably received to grace/ & verily that for such merits/ forgiveness is reward enough. And if they can not by that warning be war●ed/ surely as saint paul saith he is not to be trusted often/ but rather of all good christian people to be eschewed & avoided from the flock. For they be so f●● waxed crooked/ that seldom can they be ●yghted again.  
¶ Forsooth quoth your friend yet as I said at my first 〈◊〉 to you/ 〈◊〉 I worthy to be of counsel with the clergy when there were a man founden fawtye therein/ whom the people have in good estimation for some great opinion of learning and virtue/ they should be secretly & soberly monysshed/ and not the matter published among the people. And finally if they so should needs be openly convented and corrected in face of the world/ th●n would I not yet have them called Lutherans/ lest the people which had good opinion of them/ or if they happen to perceive them for nought and so take them/ than shall they peradventure give the less credence to all good men/ and set the less by all good preachers after.  
¶ Surely quoth I certain rule that were always best/ were hard to give in such case. Sometime there may peradventure such honesty be joined with such repentance/ that it would not be much a miss to preserve the man's estimation among the people/ to whom his perfayts change, may per●as more than recompense his for more error and oversight. But where as the contrary shall seem convenient/ there can I not se● why we should forbear to tall them Lutherans/ sith it is both an old usage to call heretics after the name of him whom they follow in their heresy/ and also as Luther's sect is in effect the hole heap of all heresies gathered together/ it is now all one to call him ● Lutherans or to call him a● heretic/ ●hose 〈◊〉 being in 〈◊〉 equivalent Luther teaching all must nothing but heresies/ nor 〈…〉 name of Lutherans should be customably brought in men's ears as adyou●e as the name of heretics. Nor I see not so great fere that ryther folk shall for opinion of any man's virtue in whom they see themself deceived/ withdraw their favour and affection from such as are good in deed/ or fall in to the favour of Luther's sect for thestimation of the man whom they now see preyed nought. For this will no man do but such as either be so foolish that they would hate all Crysties apostles for the falsehood of judas/ or so naughty that thy would fain have all the world fall to the same sect & be of their own s●yt.   

¶ The xvi chapter.  
¶ Of simple unlearned folk that are deceived by the great good opinion that they have per●as in the learning and living of some that teach them errors.  
Forsooth quoth your friend yet would there me thinketh ●e mich pity used in those matters among. For many a man unlearned when he heareth one that he taketh for cunning/ & fresh such a man as he taketh for virtuous/ commend Luther's way/ he is of simpleness and good mind moved to follow the same. ¶ Surely quoth I therein I say not nay but that these things being such/ great pity it is to see many good simple souls deceived and led out of the tight way by the authority of such as they reckon for good men and c●nnyng/ whom they have either by open sermons or secret communication perceived 〈◊〉 favourers of that ungracious se●●/ thinking that men of such c●nnyng and knowledge in 〈◊〉/ being therewith of 〈…〉 be●hauour as they 〈…〉 to that way/ but if they knew● it fo● good. And surely where it so happeneth that any simple soul is by the good opinion that he hath in his master led out of the right belief of the faith/ wenynyg that w●re the very faith which he seeth his master whom he reckoneth good & cunning follow and lean unto/ it is a very pyttous thing. And as the person is less in blame & more easily cured/ so is that master double dampened/ as the cause both of his own sin & his the followeth him/ and very hard is he to mend. How be it sometime we deserve with our sin that god for the punishment thereof/ suffereth us to have lewd leders and evil teachers. And surely for the more part such as be led out of the right way/ do rather fall there to of a lewd lightness of their own mind/ then for any great thing that moveth them in their master that teacheth them. For we see them as ready to believe a purser a glover or a weaver that nothing can do but scantly read english/ as well as they would believe the wisest and the best learned doctor in a realm. How be it be a man never so well learned/ and seem he never so virtuous/ yet can we with no reason excuse ourself/ if we leave the right believe for the trust that we ha●e in any man earthly. For our believe is taught us by god surely planted in the church of christ/ & th'articles thereof not new bygyn/ but now continued many an hundred y●●e in the great congregation of christian people/ as things certain/ sure/ & stable/ and out of all question/ 〈◊〉 n●ne heretic doth or can deny/ and in the hearts of this congregation 〈◊〉 th●y written by the holy hand 〈…〉 ●s he that thorough his trust put in any man/ byleveueth the contrary of any point that the church of christ is taught to believe by god.  
¶ This faith was taught by christ/ preached by his apostles/ of this wrote his euangely●●es/ & many more thing were taught than are written. And this faith should have been taught and firmly standen/ all though nothing had been written. And the articles of this faith had in men's hearts/ be the just & sure rules of construction by which we conster & understand the holy scripture that is written. For very sure are we that who so would conster any text of holy scripture/ in such wise as he would make it seem contrary to any point of this catholic faith which god hath taught his church/ he giveth the scripture a wrong sentence/ & thereby teacheth a wrong believe. And as saint Poule saith cursed be he and though he were an angel of heaven. And therefore be we not excusable if we believe any man to the contrary of the faith/ how good or how cunning so ever he seem/ while we see that he teacheth us a wrong way which we may soon know if we be good crysten and know the bylyef all ready.  
¶ And we may have also a great guess thereat/ if he teach us secretly as a privy mystery/ the doctrine that he would not were uttered and showed openly. For such things be they commonly that these herety●u●s teach in ●uc●er murder/ against the faith that all the church believeth. Now 〈◊〉 I give this counsel to every unlearned man/ when any man so teacheth the whom thou ●a●● in great ●●●im●ciō for virtue or cunning/ th●̄ consider in thyself that he neither hath more 〈…〉/ than had saint austin/ saint Hierome/ saint Ambrose/ saint Gregory/ saint Cyrpian/ saint Chrisosteme/ with many old fathers and holy doctors which believed all their days & died in the belief that thou believest all ready/ whereof he teacheth the contrary. And so say boldly to him than if he would beguile the. And say that those holy doctors believed not as thou dost/ but as he saith bring him to the reckoning before some other good and well learned men. And I dare be bold to warrant that thou shalt find him double false. For neither shalt thou find it true that he told thee/ & bysydꝭ that he shall not let to bylye thee/ saying & swearing to that thou sayest wrong on him/ and that he never told the so.  
¶ Marry sir q your friend he will haply say that he were peradventure in the point to be pardoned/ because of the jeopardy that he might fall in to by the maintenance of his ●pynyon. ¶ Pardon him if it will q I. But yet is he not than so good as were those good fathers. For either is his way nought/ & than doth he nought to teach it/ or if he be good/ than is he nought/ that for any fere forsaketh it. For he that forsaketh any troth of Crystis faith/ forsaketh christ. And than saith our s●uyour that who so doth/ shall be forsaken of him. And he that so doth is not to be believed like those holy father's/ which have taught us fat ye●rrary. For they did abide by the right faith that they taught/ which is as by their books appeareth/ the self same faith that thou believest. And so farforth abydde they thereby/ that divers of them sustained great persecution therefore/ & some of them death & martyrdom. So that we were more th●● mad if we had 〈…〉 send our souls to the souls of those holy father's/ of whose cunning virtue/ and salvation/ we be sure/ than to cast them away with these folk/ which how holy so ever they seem/ yet show themself nought/ in that they teach the contrary of such thyngiss as those undoubted holy doctors taught.  
¶ I marvel them quoth your friend why they live so virtuously/ fasting & giving their good in almose/ with other virtuous exercise/ both in forbearing the pleasure of the world/ and also taking pain in their bodies. ¶ To this matter quod I our saviour himself answereth where he saith in the gospel of Matthew/ Attendite a falsis prophetis qui veniunt ad vos in vestimentis ovium/ intrinsecus a●tem sunt lupi rapaces. Beware of the false prophets that come to you in the clothing of sheep/ and yet withinforth been ravenous wolves. For sith that they by false doctrine labour to devour and destroy men souls/ we be sure enough that wolves they be in deed/ how ●hepyshely so ever they look. And ypocryties must they needs be/ sith they be so denounced by goddies own mouth. And well may we perceive that he meaneth not well/ when he teacheth evil. And that evil he teacheth we may well wit/ when we see him teach the contrary of the which god hath all ready taught his hole church. In which hath been so many holy fathers so many cunning doctors and so many blessed martyrs/ that so have bidden by the faith to the death/ that it were a ●●enesye/ if we would n●w against so many such believe any false heretic & feigning hypocrite/ teaching us the contrary. ¶ Of those holy fathers of our faith whom their bokys showeth to have believed us we believe/ we have seen and known their virtuous life well proved by their blessed end/ in which our lord hath testified by many a miracle/ that their faith & their lives hath liked him. But now have we yet seen any such thing by any of these heretics. Nor yet so much as any const●unce in their doctrine/ but & if they were once found out and examined/ we see them alway first ready to lie and forswear themself if the will serve And when that will not help but their falsed and perjury proved in their faces/ than ready be they to abjure & forsake it/ as long as that may save their lives. Nor never yet found I any one/ but he would once abjure though he never intended to k●pe his oath. So holy would he be and so wise therewith/ that he would with perjury kill his soul for ever/ to save his body for a whiles For commonly soon after such as so do/ show themself again/ god of his righteousness not suffering that their falls forswering should stand then long in stead.   

¶ The xvii chapter.  
¶ The author showeth that some which be Lutherans & seem to live holily/ and therefore be believed & had in estimation/ intend a further purpose them they pretend/ which they will well show if they may once find their tyme.  
ANd as for their living/ the good appearance whereof is the thing that most blindeth us/ as much surety as we have of the godly life of our old holy father's/ whereof the world hath written/ and god h●th borne witness by many great miracles showed for their sakes/ as uncertain be we of these men/ with whom we neither he always pre●ent/ and 〈◊〉 also can tell what abominations they may do to sum of them secretly. Nor yet can know their intent & purpose that they appoint upon and the cause for which they be for the while content to take all the pain.  
¶ Very certain is it the pride is one cause wherefore they take the pain. For pride is as saint austin saith/ the very mother of all heresies. For of an high mind to be in the liking of the people/ ● hath cummyn in to many men so mad a mind & so frantic/ that they have not wrought what pain they took without any other recompense or reward/ but only the fond pleasure & delight that themself conceive in their heart/ when they think what worship the people talketh of them. And they be the devils martyrs/ taking much pain for his pleasure/ & his very a pys/ whom he maketh to tumble thorough the hope of the holiness that putteth them to pain with out fruit. And yet oftentimes maketh them mys●e of the vain praise whereof only they be so proud. For while they delight to think how they be take for holy/ they be many times well perceived and taken for ypocryties as they be.  
¶ But such is this cursed affection of pride/ and so deep setteth in the claws where it catcheth/ the heard it is to pull them out. This pride hath ere this made some learned men to devise new fantysyes in our faith/ because they would be syn●ular among the people/ as did Irrius Faustus Pelagyan & divers other old heretics whose false opinions have ●en long time passed openly condemned by many holy synods & general counsels/ ● now god be thanked not only their opinions quenched/ but also all their bokis clean gone & vanished quye away/ ere ever any law was made for such books burning. So that it well appeareth to have been the only work of god that hath destroyed those works/ which wrought in their times much harm in his church. This affection of pride hath not only made some learned men to bring forth new fantasies/ but maketh also many men of mich less than mean learning so sore to long to seem far better learned than they be/ that to make the people have them in authority/ they de●yse new sects & scysmies to the pleasure of new fangle folk/ sparing no pain for the while to set forth their sect withal/ rewarding their labour with only delight of beholding what pleasure the people have in their preaching.  
¶ And albeit that this frantyque pleasure with which the devil inwardly feedeth them/ be y● only thing that satisfied & contenteth some/ yet many are there of those that evil teacheth & appear holy/ which are both secretly more lose & voluptuou●● than they seem. And some also which warily keep themself for the while/ intend toward more liberal lewdness at length. Will ye see ensample thereof? look on Tyndall that translated the new testament/ which was in deed (as ye said in the beginning) before his going over/ taken for a man of sober & honest living/ & looked & preached holily/ saving that yet sometime it savoured so shrewdly/ that he was once or twice examined thereof. But yet because he glossed then his words with a better scent/ & said ● swore that he meant none harm/ folk were glad to take all to the best. But yet is see that though he dys●embled himself to to be a Lutheran or to beat any favour to his sect while he was here/ yet as soon as he gate him hence/ he gate him to Luther straight. And where as in the transsacyon of the new testament he 〈◊〉 their 〈◊〉 is not yet 〈◊〉 to the point so be●●/ which they surely trust to bring about & to 〈◊〉 this realm after that fashion of Swycherland or Saxony & some other ꝑtes of Germany/ where their sect hath all ready fordone that faith/ pulled down the churches/ polluted the temples/ put out & spoiled all good religious folk/ joined fr●●ys & nunnys together in lechery/ despyted all saints/ blasphemed our blessed lady/ ●ast down Cry●●ꝭ cross/ throwē●ut the blessed sacrament/ refused all good lawis abhorredal good governance/ rebelled against all rulers/ fall to fight among themself/ & so many thousands slain/ that the land lieth in many placis in ma●●● desert & desolate/ & finally the most abominable is of all/ of all their own ungcacyoꝰ dedis lay the fant in god/ taking away the liberty of man's will/ & scrybing all our dediss to destiny/ with all reward or punishment pursuing upon all our doyngys'. whereby they take away all diligence & good endeavour to virtue/ all wthstandyng & striking against vice/ all care of heaven/ all fere of hell/ all cause of prayer/ all desire of devotion/ all exhortation to good/ all dehortation from evil/ all praise of well-doing/ all rebuke of ●yn/ all the lawis of the world/ all reason among men/ set all wretchedness abroach/ no man at liberty/ & yet every man do what he will/ calling it not his will but 〈…〉 destiny/ laying their sin to God's ordinance/ & their punishment to god 〈◊〉 city/ & finally turning the nature of man in to worse than a beast/ & the goodness of god in to worse than the devil. And all this good fruit would a few mysch●uous persons/ ●um for desire of a large liberty to an unbridled lewdness/ & sum of an high devilish pry●ecloked under ptexe 〈…〉 la●●s & the good faithful people did no● in the begyning meet with their malice.   

¶ The xviii chapter.  
¶ The author showeth that in the condemnation of heretics/ the clergy might lawfully do mich more sharply than they do/ & that in deed the clergy doth now no more against heretics/ than that ap●stel consaileth/ & the old holy doctors did  
FOr as for the clergy whom they la●our to bring in hatred under the falls accusation of trueltye/ do no more therein than saint Austyn/ saint Hierom & other holy fathers have been wo● to do before/ nor no fe●ther than th'apostle adviseth himself. For they do no more but when one heretic after warning will not 〈◊〉 ●●t wa●eth worse/ eschew him than & avoid him out of Cristis 〈◊〉. which is the very thing that saint Poule counseleth where he writeth to Cy●us/here●●cū h● mi●ē post primam & sc●●a I correptionem deuit●. And this is much less that the clergy doth to heretykis/ than saint peter did unto Ananias & Saphyra for a far smal●ler matter/ that is to wit for their untrue saying & keeping aside a portion of their own money/ when they made semblance as though they brought to th'apostle all together. For though they were not killed by his own hand/ yet appeareth it well the god aylled them both twain by saint Peter his meanꝭ as governor of his church/ to y●●erful exaple of all such as would after the break their promise & vow to god willingly made of themself or their own good. which thing luther & tyndal would have all men do now. Did not saint poule write unto the corynthyes/ that the● should deliver to the devil him that had defoyl●d his father's wife/ to the punishment of his body that the spirit might be saved in the day of judgement? what say we of Hymynius and Alexander/ of whom 〈…〉 to the coryn●●yes also ●●●yneum & Alexandrum tradid● satan's/ ut discant non blasphemare. ¶ I have quod he betaken Hymyne●● and Alexander to the devil/ to ●eche them to leave their blasphemy. In which words we may well learn/ that saint Poule as apostle & spiritual governouce in that country finding them ●wayn fallen from the faith of christ in to the blasphemy of that they were bounden to worship/ did cause the devil to torment and punish their bodies/ which every man may well wit was no small pain/ and peradventure noth without death also. For we find no thing of their amendment. And this bodily punishment did saint Poule as it appeareth upon heretics/ so that if the clergy did unto much more blasphemous heretics than I ween they twain were/ much more sorrow than saint Poule did to them/ they should neither do it without good cause nor without great authority/ and evident example of chrystis blessed apostles. And surely when our saviour himself calleth such heretics wolfs ●lo●ed in sheeps skynnies/ and would that his shepeherdies the governors of his ●lokke should in such wise avoid them as very shepherd is would avoid very wolfs/ there is little doubt but as an honourable prelate of this realm in his most erudite book answereth unto Luther/ the prelatis chrystis church rather ought temporally to destroy those ra●●●ouse wolves/ than suffer them to wyr●te and devour everlastingly the lokke that christ hath committed unto their cur●/ and the ●lokke that himself died for to save it from the wolfs mouth. But now though it well appear as me thinketh it doth that the clergy might in this case right sore procure against 〈…〉 there than the old holy fathers did in their 〈◊〉 and the blessed apostle counseleth them to do. But all the sore punishment of heretics wherewith such folk as favour them would fain dy●●ame the clergy/ is and hath be●● for the great utrages and temporal harms that such heretics have been always ●●nt to do/ and seditious commotions that they be wont to make/ upside the far passing spiritual hurted that they do to men's sowlys/ devised & executed against them of necessity by good christian princes & politic rulers of the temporalty/ for as much as their wisdom's well perceived that the people should not fail to fall in to many sore & intolerable troubles/ if such seditious sectis of heretics were not by grievous punishment repressed in the begynny●g/ & the sparkle well quenched ●re it were suffered to grow to over great a fire.  
¶ Forsooth quoth your friend it appeareth well that the clergy is not in this matter to be blamed as many men reckon. For it seemeth that the sore punishment of heretics is devised not by the clergy/ but by temporal princes & good lay people/ and not without great cause ¶ Well quoth I & to th'intent that ye shall perceive 〈◊〉 much the better/ & over the believe your 〈◊〉 eyes & not my words in many things that ye have herd of my mouth● we will not part this night but I shall deliver in to your handis here m● bokys than ye will read over till to morrow. But for that ye shall neither need to read all/ nor lose time in seeking for that ye should see/ I have laid you the placies ready with ryshes between the le●ys/ & notes marked in the mergentꝭ/ where the matter is touched. ¶ So ●●used I to be borne in to his chamber a book of 〈◊〉/ and certain works 〈…〉 and some other holy d●ct●●●●herwith all a work or twain of Luther and as many of Tyndall. And in this wise went we to supper/ and ●n the morrow forbore I to speak with him till near dyner tyme. At which ●ure meeting/ he showed me that in the 〈◊〉 where the ry●his lay/ namely in caus● xxii. questione quint●/ & dy●●●●●●her of the questions consequently 〈◊〉/ he had seen at full that the clergy dathe at this day no ferther for the p●nyshment of heretics/ than did the old fathers and holy doctors & saints in time passed● as by their own words there alleged doth open and plainer peer. And that as well the clergy in the persecution of heretics lawfully may do/ as the temporal princes in war against infidels be deeply 〈◊〉 to do/ much more than th●y 〈◊〉 do/ or of long time have done/ or yet as it seemeth go about to d●. And ●uer this he said that he had seen of Luther's own words worse than he had ever h●rd rehearsed/ & in Tyndall worse yet in many things than he saw in Luther himself. And in Tyndals' book of obedyens he said that he had sounden what thing Tyndall saith against miracles and against the praying to saints.  
¶ Marry q I & these two matters made us two much business before your ●●yng to the university. I would it h●d happened you & me to have red over that book of his before. how be it in good faith if ye well/ we shall yet peruse ●●●r hi● reasons in those points/ & consider what weight is in them. ¶ Nay by my trauth quoth your friend we shall need now to lose no time therein. For as ●●r miracles/ he saith nothing in effect but that which I laid against them before/ that the miracles were the 〈◊〉 of the devil. 〈…〉 I said that it might peradventure be said so h● s●yth that in d●de it is so/ approveth y● yet less than I did. And therefore as for that 〈◊〉 of his without better proof is of little weight. ¶ Forsooth quoth I Tyndals' word alone ascribing all the miracles to the devil/ o●ght not to weigh much among 〈…〉 against the writing of holy saint austin/ saint ●i●●●m●/ saint Ambrose/ saint Chrysosto●e/ saint Gregory/ and many ●n other holy dyctour/ writing many a great miracle done at holy pylgrym●gys and saints relics/ done in wo●●̄ presence of many substantial folk/ and divers done in their own sight. All which miracles all those blessed saints do ascribe unto the work of god/ & to the honour of those holy sainti● th●t w●re worshipped at those pylgrym●gis. Against all whom when Tynd●ll ascryb●th them all to the devil/ he plainly showeth himself as faithful as he would seem/ very near syhte to t●infydelyte of those jews that ascribed Crystis miracles to the devil/ s●yng that he did cast out devils by the ●●wer of Bealsabu● prynee of devils. ¶ Surely quod your friend and as for that he reasoneth against praying to saints is very bare. ¶ It must needs q I be bare/ except he well avoid the miracles. Whereto when he hath nothing to say but to ascribe God's works to the devil/ he showeth himself driven to a narrow straight. For he & his fellows 〈◊〉 as touching miracles/ neither have god willing/ nor the devil able/ to show any for the proof of their part/ no● I trust in god never they shall.  
¶ In faith quoth your friend as for res●●ing the matter of praying to saints/ he y● not worth the redyng● now. For all the substance in 〈◊〉 that is 〈…〉  
¶ That is quod I no marvel for he hath not herd it. ¶ In faith q●●d your ●●end & of his own making he layeth arguments for it such as he ly●● 〈◊〉 he layeth forth fay●●ly/ and than doth answer them so slenderly/ and all his ●●le matter in those points and other so plainly con●utyd by the old holy father's/ that it I had seen so much before/ it had been likely to have shorted much part of our long communication. ¶ For by my troth q he when I consider both the parties well/ & read Luther's wu●dꝭ & Tyndals in some places where y● laid me the ryshes/ I can not but wonder that either any almain could I ly●e ●●e tone/ or ●●y english man the other. ¶ I can not much marvel quoth I ●●ough many like them well. For such there is no 〈◊〉 where in there ●●●●eth plenty of such as be nought/ what wonder is if that vicious folk ●all to the favour of their like? And then as for such when their hearts are once fixed upon their blind affections/ a man may with as much fruit preach to a post/ as reason with them to the contrary. For they no thing po●der what is reasonably spoken to them ●u● whereto their 〈…〉 cyon inclyn●●● that thing they 〈◊〉 to and the other believe/ or at the le●●e wise the way they walk & ●●y they byl●●e it. For in good faith that they so believe in d●de/ their ●aters be so mad that I believe it not. And yet make they semblauns as though they believed that no man were able to confu●e Luther or Tyndall/ where me thinketh for these mathers of their heresies that they so set forth if the ●●dyenes were indifferent/ there were not in this world a man more meet to 〈…〉 Colyns alone/ if 〈…〉 la●●●th out scryptu●e ●o ●●deleem 〈◊〉 fast as they both● And in good faith ●e they both expow●e it as maddely as he. And so help me god as me thinketh that man is as mad as any of all th●●/ which when he seeth the right faith of christ continued in his ●●tholy●ue church so many hundred y●●s and on that side so many glorious martyrs/ so many blessed confessors/ so many godly vyrgynes/ and in all that time virtue had in honour/ fasting/ prayer/ and 〈◊〉 had in price/ god and his saints worshipped/ his sacrament is had in reverence/ christen soul is tenderly 〈◊〉 for/ holy vows kept & observed/ virginity preached & praised/ pylgrim●gꝭ devoutly visited/ every kind of good works commended/ And seeth now 〈◊〉 start up ● new sect setting for the ●●ne the contrary/ destroying ●hrystes holy sacraments/ pulling down chrystis cross/ blaspheming his blessed saints/ destroyng● 〈◊〉 devotion/ 〈…〉 to pray for their father's 〈…〉 fasting days/ setting 〈◊〉 thought the holy ●●yes/ pulling down the churches/ ●aylynge against the mass/ vylanousely demeny●gth● blessed sacrament of the altar the sacred body of our saviour Chryst/ ● And seeth the tone side and the continuance thereof so clearly proved by many a thousand miracle/ so clearly testified by the virtuous and erudite bookꝭ of all the 〈…〉 de holy doctors from the apostles time to our days/ and seeth on the ●othe●syde a fond frere and his fellows without wit or grace ●ere us in hand that all those holy fathers never understood the scripture/ but only these bells that teach us vice as fast as ever the t'other taught us virtue/ & the seeth on the tone side saint Cypryane/ Syn● Hyerome/ saint Ambrose/ saint may be party●ers of the heavenly bless/ which the blood of goddies own son hath bought us unto. And this prayer q I serving us for grace/ let us now ●yt dow●● to dinner. Which we did. ¶ And after dinner depar●●ed he home● toward you/ and I to the court.   
¶ Finis.   


Johannes Rastell    

¶ imprinted at London at the sign of the mermaid at Powlys' gate next to cheap side in the month of June the year of our Lord 〈…〉 ix.  
¶ Cum privilegio Regali.   

¶ The faults escaped in the printing.  
Fol. Col. Li●●●. ¶ The 〈◊〉. ¶ The 〈◊〉. i. i. ix. ●ny onys i two. xxiiii. ●●tter bew●●● better to bew●r● i● two. xii. sow●y●g sowing i●●. iiii. xxxii. nothing 〈◊〉 worthy/ only to 〈◊〉 th●t nothing 〈◊〉 worthy/ o●ly to 〈…〉 e●f●●● th●t v●. iiii. xxiiii. affares affairs vi. i. xxviii. spa●e. spa●e of. vi. iiii. nineteen. were where seven. i. xxiiii. ye he seven. two. xx. and these and e●y of the●● seven. two. xxiii. with him with them viii. iiii. two. place to place bound to viii iiii. xxvi. with which within which ix. two. xii wy●●yd would wy●●yd/ would ix. two. xvii. bishop is a●● bishops and ix. iiii. two. prehybyted prohibited x. two. xii. desolute desolate ●. iiii. xii. and w●ll and as w●ll ●●. i. xi. ¶ T●y ¶ Th● xi. iiii. xv. say said xiii. iii. x. s●med seemed xiii. iii. xii. were not of were wo●n out of xiii. iii. xxxiiii. believe you believe xiiii. iii. xxxii. wot you quoth I wot you well q I xiiii. iiii. seven. showed m● show ye m● xv. i. ●. ym●gys/ in ym●gys/ but in xv. i. iii. or goods or our goods. xvi. i. xiiii do himself. do ●hem him sel●e xvi. two. xxvi. ●y●●e of ●ytty● ●y●●e ca●●ing of ●y●tꝭ ●vi. iii. xxxv. come c●me xvii. iii. nineteen. pleasure an●●llys pl●s●re/wh●re when and wherefore god sh●l work his miracles/ and else xviii. i. xxxvi. So for So f●●re xviii. two. xiiii. in●●udel●te incredulite xviii. iii. seven. sumty●● so be sumtym● p●raduenture so be xviii. iiii. xiii. here that co●●eyd h●●e co●●eyd xx. iiii. xxiii. & xxiiii the but. And all which the bu● & all. which xx. iiii. x●iii. for or xxi. i. xii. were god were any god ●●●●. i. xxiii. but thyn● but the thyn● xxii. iii. xxvii. de●eld D●●●ld xxii. iii. xx●. at the pylg●●● at her pylgry● xxii. iiii. xi. one ow●e xxiii. i. iiii. I can I can not xxiii. two. seven. ●on●● at all ry●t ●●nne all at ry●t xxiii. iii. iii. scripture it self conclusion it self xxiiii. i. xxxii. Cry●● quod I Cry●●ys church ● I xxiiii. two. v. th●n to for than not to for xxv. two. iiii. th●m then xxv two. xxxvi. more the ●●l more mul xxv. iii. xxxiiii. give guyd● xxvi. iii. xx. ow●● one xxvii. iiii. two. way may xxviii. i. ix. one or xxviii. iiii. i. this thus xxviii. iiii. x●iii. sometime fall sometime to fall xxix. two. viii. seen seem xxix two. xvi. & xvii m●●●●y to show themself/ therefore marvelous they set m●●●ry/ to show th● self therefore marvellous/ they set thirty. iiii. xii. take for a s●●● take a s●●● xxxi. two. xiii. A●tycl● ●●tycles xxxii. two. viii. he she xxxii. two. xv. that he tho●gh● that thing he th●●ht xxxii. two. xvii. which ●yche xxxii. two. xiiii. de●e deny xxxiii. i. xxviii. tell till xxxiiii● iiii. xx. them s●r●● 〈…〉 Fol. Col. Li●. ¶ The faw●ys ¶ The 〈◊〉 xxxv. iiii. nineteen. well abides it well have abides 〈◊〉 xxxv. iiii. xxv. bo●y body xxxv●. two. two. dyspo●●/ so in things dispose/ ● as it may be also in things xxxvi two. xii. beluyd bele●yd xx●vi. iiii. xii. taught in t●ught it in xxxvii. iii. xii. grace more/ were it gr●ce/m●re ●●re y● xxxviii. i. ix. one own xxxviii two. x●. hole ●oly xxxviii. iiii. seven. would should xxxix. i. xv●. with him with you xxxix. iii. x●●. boledly boldly xli. i. i. to believe to be bele●y● xli. two. vi. seemeth seemed xli. two. xxxii. holy hole xlii. two. x●ii. above alone xlii. two. xliiii. holy hole xliii. i. xxxvii. mill will xliii. two. ix. if any if in any xliii. iiii. x●●. god god god xliiii. i. xvi. geder gather xliiii. iiii. ix. ●e hath I hau● xliiii. iiii. xii. ye will ye shall xlvi. iiii. thirty. hole holy xlvii. two. xx●iii. your you l. i. xxxi. the they l. two. iiii. abou● thorough out li. two. iiii. known that known to god th●● li. two. xxv. good god li. iii. ix. know knoweth lii. two. iii. ¶ Had ¶ Bad lii. iiii. x●i. supra montem montem liii. i. thirty. church gates church the g●●y● liii. i. xiiii. argu argument liii. iii. ix. haven have lv. i. xxiii. by hole the by the hole lv. iiii. xii. to him to him an● lv. iiii. xx●i. of plenty and plenty lvi. i. xii. walked wal●e lvi. ●●. xxxviii. and pray e●y and pay e●y lvii. i. i. fruitful fruitless lvii. i. xxxii. they than canonized they canonys●● lvii. iii. x●i. tha● that lvii. iiii. i. ye men would ye would lviii. iiii. xxxviii. left lost lx. iiii. xxiiii. mother mother's lxii. two. xv. xvi. & xvii neither/ or partly som●●me as the place lieth for them as their de●o●yon leadeth them/ and yet neither as their d●uo●yon leadeth than/ or p●rtely sometime as the place lieth for them/ & yet lxiii. two. xx. he we lxiii. two. xxviii. not of not lxiii. two. xxxiii. miss amiss lxiii. two. xxxv. seen often seen y● often lxiii. iiii. xviii. words word lxiiii. iiii. xxxvi. fast. ¶ we shall fast/ we shall lxv two. xxix. your ou● lxv. two. xxxix. let do let them do lxvi. i. xxxiii. which by which lxvi. i. xxxviii hereof thereof lxvi. two. x●i. god good lxix. i. xl. followeth ●e followed the lxx. i. xxxviii. abjuration ab●ura●yon aberration lxxi. two. xv. prayer pair lxxi. two. xxxiiii. sing say lxxii. i. nineteen. of little of a little lxxii. two. xvi. were & were false ● lxx●i. two. xxxvii. &. x●xviii. constantly c●menly lxxii. iii. xxxiiii. by the more by the taky●●● 〈◊〉 mor● Fol. C●l. Lin●●. ¶ The ●awtys. ¶ T●e amēd●mētys l●xii. iiii. xiii. use it v●e to do ye lx●ii. iiii. xxxi. not only. but only ●xxii. iiii. xxxiiii. &. xx●v. cōplay●tys complayn●untis lxx●ii. i. two. him to him so to lxxiii. i. ●i. pa●ty●w●re party/ there were lxx●ii. iii. xxvi. Better And better ●●xiii. iiii. xvi. w●re in w●r● worthy in l●xiiii. two. make the number of the lef●. lxxi●ii. for. ●iii●. l●●iiii iii. xxiii. cost coneys lx●iiii. iii. x●. wy●h an is an lxxv. i. xix●. in effect of this of this lxiu iii. xiii. him with sufferance some him/ with sufferance of some lxxv. iii. xxiii. man was manner of abjuration w●s lx●v. iiii. xxxv. would have could have lxx●i. iii. xii. small ●yn●ll lxxvi. iiii. x●ii●. give nought give him nought lxxvii. i. xxiiii. the that lxxvii. iiii. xxxv. that they nor they lxxix. two. xxiiii. party. whereof party. For whereof lxxix. iiii. xxvi. calleth all lo●e love calleth always love lxxx. i xvi. b● a but a lxxxiii. two. xl. it yet lxxxiii. iii. xx. if salt if the salt lx●xiiii. iiii. xi. would could lxxxiiii. ii●i. xxvii. I suppose if the I suppose q I if the lxxxv. two. read the number of the lef● lxxxv. for lxxxvi lxx●v. iiii. xv. and of and not of lxxxv. iiii. xxiiii. nen been lxxxviii. two. read the number of the leaf lxxxviii for lxxxix lxxxviii. i. iiii. this his lxxxviii. i. v. b●und b●●de lxxxviii. two. xxxiii. not pres● not a pre●● lxxxix. iiii. xxxi. one any xc. iii. ix. killed kill xci. two. xxxvii. s● so xci. two. xl. foot feet xci. iii. xxxviii. And At xcii. two. ix. help god help me god xciiii. two. iii. c●n no c●n I no xciiii. iii. xxxviii. the they xciiii. iii●. xvi. in is xciiii. iiii. xxxii. beneath that beneath signified that x●v. two. iii. the on● xcvii. iii. thirty. the they xcviii. two. read the n●mber of the leaf xcviii for. cxviii● xcviii. i. i. their/ theirs/ xcviii. two. xxii. sad sadness xcviii. two. ●xiii. which which shall xcix. iii. x●iii therewith wherewith xcix. iiii. xxii. if of x●ix. iiii. thirty. was content not that was not 〈◊〉 that C. two. two. opinion opinions C. iiii. two. said saith C.i two. seven. more me●y C.i. two. viii. and that Luther and Luther C.ii two. thirty. have hath C.ii two. x●. swarm be swar●ed C.ii iii. xxxi. ¶ I●●m every ¶ I●em he saith that every C.ii iii. xxxiii. by prayed unto as our lady b● prayed unto as well as our lady C.iii two. nineteen. Now For now C.iii iiii. xxxiiii. ● pared ● some part pared C iii. iiii. xxxv. of to make of to/ to 〈◊〉 C.iiii i. x. finished fynysheth C.iiii iiii. xxxi. her he C.u. i. v●●. not no● C.u. i. xx●ii. no not C.vii i. x●. or ●or C.viii iiii. xxvi. whyl● till Fo. Col. Linea. ¶ The faults. The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ty●● C. i●. i. xviii. an as C.ix two. xxii. hospell gospel C.x. i. ●xvii. a●d it and ●h●t it C.x. two. iiii. do it without do it nor ●ytho●● C.x. iiii. xxxiii. & xxxiiii Galath●●● Co●yn●hyans C.xi i. seven. that that th●m that C. x●i. i. nineteen. ●●●e part ●e●e no part C.xii iiii. ●xv. words which words in which C. x●ii. i. xxxix. it master it not master C.xiii iii. i. menstruated menstruate C xiiii. i. viii. sin sin C.xiiii. iii. xxiiii. . So . And that C.xiiii. iii. x●ii. that god th●t only g●d C xiiii. iiii. i. it no such● it such C.xiiii. iiii. xxix. he set he had set C.xiiii. iiii. xxxi●. fe● fellows C.xiiii. iiii. xxxiiii. se●●e se● C.xv. i. xiii. is was C.xv. two. xv. no sin. But no sin ● 〈…〉 C.xv. two. xxvi. sort whom sort only whom C.xv. iiii. seven. & viii thernyte eternyte C.xv. iiii. xi. grace the grace and th● C.xvi iii. xvii. set shut C.xvi iii. xx●ii. he his C. xv●. iii. xxix. they b● they ●hen be C.xvi iii. xii. dead deed C. x●i. iiii. xiiii. he hath C xvi. iiii. xx. the●e th●se C xvi. iiii. xxiiii. sith surely C.xvii. two. x. neither albey● neither. For alb●●● C.xvii. two. xv. folk driven folk had not drive C.xvii. iii. xiii. sore ●s sore punished as C.xviii. i. vi. wys● su●● wise to be su●● C.xviii. two. xxi. in wales in to wales C.xviii. iiii. v. killeth killed C.xix. i. xxvii. seemed s●●eth C.xix. iii. iii. should ●hold C.xix. iii. xi. spa●e speak C.xx. iii. xxxiii. berely that for ●erely for C.xx. iiii. xii. & xiii of them/ or if of them/ may peradventure like luth●● the better for than/ or if C.xxi i. xiiii. would l●●e would never le●e C.xxi two. xxvi. ●s well as they would by● as they would 〈◊〉 to by● C.xxi iii. seven. thing things C.xxi iiii. viii him tha● him. But than C.xxi iiii. xxvii. if he be if it be C xxi. iiii. xxxviii. thou beleuy● we believe C.xxii two. v. B●t now But never C.xxii two. xxxi. th●m ●hen C.xxii iii. xii. quye quyne C xxii. iiii. nineteen. satisfied s●tysfyeth C.xxiii. iii. vi. ●uer i● ever h●●e had i● C.xxiii. iii. x. soming seeing C xxiiii. i. two. bear/ which bear it/ which C. xx●iii. two. xxv. or for C. xx●iii. iii. xxxv. pr●latys christs pr●l●tys of Cry●●ꝭ C.xxv. i. i. doctors therewith doctors/ and the● with C.xxv. two. xxxvii. part as touching as touching C.xxv. iiii. two. both/ And both in Al●●y●/ And xviii. iii ix. & ten Edward the fourth. He●●y the syxt  
¶ Fi●is.