A REPROUFE, written by Alexander Nowell, of a book entitled, A PROUFE OF Certain Articles in Religion denied by M. jewel, set forth by Thomas Dorman, bachelor of Divinity: and Imprinted at Antwerp by john Latius. Anno. 1564 Proverb. 19 4. Teflis falsus non erit impunitus: & qui loquitur mendacia non effugiet. A false witness shall not remain unpunished: and he that speaketh lies shall not escape. Set forth and allowed, according to the Queen's majesties Injunctions. Imprinted at London in Fléetestréete, by Henry Wykes. Anno Domini 1565. 13. die july. Cum Privilegio ad imprimendum solum. M. Dormans' preface to D. Harding (to whom he dedicated his book) and to the Reader, are only omitted, for that nothing material was contained in them. Of all the rest (so far as I have proceeded) not one word of M. dorman's, either in the treaty itself, or in his marginal notes, is pretermitted. There is nothing in this Impression altered from the first, saving only that M. Dormans' evil handling Fol. 3. 5. 14. 22. 60. 72. etc. of the ancient Doctors, is in some places more at large explicated: and that some part of M. Dormans' treaty somewhere before divided, is now for more perspicuity and plainness joined together. Fol. 65. THE PREFACE to the Reader. THOUGH many simple souls may much marvel at such plenty of English books, as are of late so suddenly sent us from beyond the seas, by our country men there, and both the authors themselves do much brag M. Rastell in his preface: to continue the memory of the challenge etc. and to move an expectation which part shall first show her weakness. etc. therein, and their fautors do magnify the same exceedingly: yet the learned and discrete Readers, accustomed rather to weigh and judge, then to count and numbered, will easily consider that it is no hard matter for our adversaries, abounding with leisure, * And again he saith: specially where the numbreis' great. etc. and multitude, by common conference of many to patch up a sort of such books in English, wherein there is nothing to any purpose written, but that which was long before written in sundry latin books, and ready to their hands, to translate thereout into their English books, as they thought meet for their purpose: so that they be but silly translators, or borowers of those books, whose first authors they would appear to be. In the which point yet M. Stapleton translating Staphilus his long Latin book, so long before written, word for word into English, and not dissembling the matter, hath dealt therein more simply, than the rest of his fellows have done. By whose example, the meanest men in learning and wit amongst them all (have they only a little understanding in the Latin tongue) may load us with havoc of books when they list. For it is well kuowen to all that be learned, that nothing of weight, or to any purpose, can now newly be written for the maintenance of the Pope's usurped supremacy, or any other their matters, which they now treat of, but such as hath been already both written, and printed many years ago, in books as well of the Latin tongue, as other languages, and the same to be fully answered unto also, to the satisfying of the Readers, and daily winning of great numbers of men and women of all sorts and degrees, from their popish superstition, unto the truth of the Gospel: such books as well of the one sort, as of th'other, being rise in the hands of such as understand, to such decay of their said superstition, and success of the truth, as to the world at this day cannot be unknown. Wherefore our adversaries mistrusting that such kind of writing, or rather translating, should not appear worthy to be accounted the earnest doing of any learned, or wise man: have done wittily, either to pretend that to be written D. Hard. saith he did prepare his book but for one friend, and M. Rastell, his book, for one friend alone, in their prefaces to the Reader. but lightly for a private friend or twain, and not mente to be printed, but by persuasion of friends, against their own purpose suffered to come abroad (which yet they in deed have of long, by common conference elaborated at convenient opportunity to be put in print to the public patrociny of their decayed, and almost desperate cause) or else to appoint such, to bear the name as the authors of their books, as may seem most meet therefore, being accounted of all that know them, for learning and discretion, the simplest men amongst them. The same distrust of their own doings, (or rather other men's doings set forth for their own) may seem a cause why they direct their writings either only, or chiefly against the Bishop of Sarisburie: thinking that though they shall absolutely of the matters they take in hand be able to say nothing, but that is already said, and is likewise, or easily may be answered: yet may they seem abundantly to say to him, who challengeth them that they can say nothing at all: and who also doth not tie them straightly to the trial of the scriptures, the certain and only judges in controversies of Religion, and wherein in deed they can say nothing at all (as shall hereafter be plainly proved) but giveth them a most large scope of all Doctors of the Church, who have written for the space of six hundredth years after our Saviour Christ's being here in earth, and of all Councils kept in the said continuance of D. Harding in his preface to the B. of Sarum fol. 1. a. & 2. b. and M. Rastell fol. 1. b. time. Out of the which Doctors and Councils for that the said Bishop hath advouched that the best learned of all the adversaries, or all the adversaries together, are able to bring nothing to any purpose for them, he hath set all the adversaries learned, and unlearned a work, by common conference to devise to say something for themselves, and against him, who affirmeth they can say nothing at all. And yet fearing lest that something, which they all are able to say▪ will fall out at the length to prove nothing to purpose: they have all, like wise men, agreed, that some few shall take upon them to be the only authors of that something which they all can say: lest if that something, as it is devised by them all, so it should pass abroad in all their names, and in time prove nothing at all, all their estimation were lost at once. And for more cautel, such some also to be named for the said authors, as have not all learning, wit, nor discretion, but men of a divers profession, who have yet some fight in Divinity, as studientes of the same, for so they profess themselves. Wherein they seem to me to deal with us, as did the Phariseis with Christ, who would not Math. 22. b. 16. etc. come themselves to dispute with him, but sent their Disciples, (well instructed, and furnished with all, that themselves could possibly say) to oppose him, to th'end, that if their Disciples should obtain the victory, the glory of their masters, who had such excellent scholars, might mount above the Moon. But in case the scholars should be blanked, it might for excuse yet be said, what marvel, if young men, and yet but studientes in the Scriptures, took a little foil? But if the old Doctors come themselves, I warrant you, this nue Prophet shallbe otherwise handled. And yet like wise men, they adventured not to come afterwards themselves, assuredly knowing that all that they could say, was already uttered by their scholars mouths, but yet trusting, that all men did not so know the same, but that they might still maintain with some, their old opinion and doctoral estimation. And though one Math. 22. d 35. Doctor came, and was handled as were the disciples, yet was the rebuke but one man's: but had he gotten the victory, the praise had been common to them al. This is the effect of S. Chrysostom his Luc. 10. d. 25 exposition upon the sending of the disciples, and the coming of one Doctor, unto our Saviour Christ. Which our adversaries like men of much discretion, have politicly followed. But all men that have any understanding at all, may easily understand, that they all would not commit the handling of matters of such weight (and for the which they all, as it were Pro aris & focis, for life and death, as one might term it, do fight) to those few, being very young men, and of mean learning, and small experience, in comparison, and of a divers study, and professing themselves (which they can not hide) to be young studientes in divinity: all men, I say may well know, that they would not commit such matters to such men, without their common advise, and help joined with ●hem. seeing that D. harding himself do the plainly confess, In his preface. that he in the view of his work used the advise of his learned friends: and that it is not credible, that M. Rastell would let his book lie by him four years in a readiness, without a survey thereof made Rastell in praefat●●ne. by some of so many remaining with him at Louane. Wherefore it is not hard for any of any understanding, to understand that this publishing of their common devise unto the world, in the names of a few of the simplest sort among them, is but a practice of policy. For they percivinge that they cannot write nor set abroad books worthy to be counted learned men's doings, do provide authors meet for such books, as they can set forth. Whereby they shall not only keep their own authority and cause without all danger, what so ever be judged of these authors, or their books: but shall also maintein●●n the minds of men a great opinion and expectation of themselves, as M. Rastell in his preface & fol. 1. saith: I am but a common soldier among the orders of divines and therefore I must stand behind so many bishops, Doctors, bachelors, and scholars in divinity. I will with a penknife diminish his lusty blood. Let the old soldiers with great swords and pikes kill his heresy. Veteranes, and old Soldiers: whose brunt, when they shall come to the matter, will be, as may seem, of greater force and violence, than that it can possibly be resisted, * And again M. Rast. saith he will prove M. jewel may be answered by a mean Scholar in Divinity, that he needeth not to provoke the best of the Catholics living. seeing these young soldiers have given such a fresh onset. But I dare assure you that either these matters shall thus still be handled by scholars and young studientes (as they call themselves) or if th'old doctors dare adventure (which yet many doctors doubt of) they shall handle the said matters but scholarlike, as hath that one Doctor already done: and I doubt not, but it shall to the world be made most manifest, that he hath so done. And to speak more particularly: as it was no great matter for D. Harding out of Pighius, Gropperus, Hosius, and certain others (who have entreated of the same matters in common places before him) to have translated into English what he thought meet for his purpose, which he hath lately put abroad as his own doings: so might M. Dorman with far less labour, and better right also a great deal, out of his master D. hardings book, so lately before written, borrow of authorities and reasons ready framed to his hands, as much as liked him, and so of a piece of his masters book (containing only four articles of xxvi) with great ease make us an other new book, as great, as is his masters: the order here and there being a little transposed, to obscure the matter, and to make a show of new invention: and the style somewhat flourished with M. Dormans' railing rhetoric. For they that do know M. Dorman better than I do, marveling of his doings in Divinity matters, do think that he hath all his learning, not of inheritance, but by legacy: supposing that he hath met with Doctor Smith his written books, who of late deceasinge, did, as they say, put M. Dorman in some trust. Else they think, he could not so shortly, and suddenly, before he was known to be a student in Divinity, become a Bachelor of the same. Unless perhaps he sometime stood upon the bridge with others, whiles the creator said, Omnes vos qui statis in ponte, estote Bacchalaurei: dixit, & fatui sunt. But the same his acqueintance, so marveling of his new degree in school of Di●initie, affirm, that in jesting, scoffing, mocking, and railing, he is such a veteran, and so old a practitioner, that he doth plainly reign, yea and triumph too, in the school of scolding: and though they held their peace, his doings in this book do well declare the same. And it is not unlikely but that M. Dorman with others, upon view of D. hardings book, judging that he, as a grave and learned man, had sufficiently reasoned against us, but had otherwise dealt to coldly with us (as of purpose avoiding glikes, nips, D. Harding fol. 5. scoffs, bits, cuts, and girds, for so himself saith) thought it good by common advise, that M. Dorman taking D. hardings reasons, and so eased of that greatest part of the labour, should set forth the matter, and amplify it (specially that of the Pope's supremacy, in the which he saw his Master had professed brevity) after D. Harding fol. 75. b. his and certain others devise, and not only with nips, and girds pinch, and wring us, but also with whole cartlodes of railynges (in the which faculty M. Dorman excelleth) should overwhelm us, that we might seem to all their favourers, not only borne down and clean overthrown by D. harding, but also by M. Dorman torn all to pieces, according as M. Dorman hath in this book, for his part well endeavoured himself to accomplish. Now if any do marvel that I, not provoked, as may seem, do purchase to myself so great and grievous an adversary, as is M. Dorman, by answering his book written, as he professeth, against the bishop of Sarisburie, I make them this answer: Though this and other like books appear in name and word, to be written against the said bishop only, yet be they in deed and meaning written against us all, as well as him: for that they do oppugn and assault the cause, which is common to us all with him, under his name only: going about through his sides (as it were) to thrust us all through the hearts. Further, seeing such a number of books, as it were darts, directed at his head, whereof the most part are such, that had he leisure enough thereto, yet would he never answer them, but by contempt of them, which yet not answered, might seem therefore to be let alone, for that they were not answerable, (such is, either the slender discretion of some silly souls, either the bold braggerie of many malapert adversaries) I thought for the satisfying of the simple, and repressing of the insolent, to say somewhat to some one of those books: and therefore to M. Dormans, rather than any others, for that it came abroad next in order after D. harding his book. Of which book yet, had I, before I did begin, understanded, (that I now in process do) that it had been in substance so agreeable with D. harding his book, that the Bishop of Sarum should in answering the one, in effect have answered both, (as he must needs do) it should for me have been let alone, until the bishops answer had come abroad in print: and than, (the conclusion only excepted, which is somewhat several to M. Dorman) should it by me have none otherwise been answered, but only by noting in the margin, in what places of the bishops answer to D. harding, every place of M. Dormans' book is answered, which order I will hereafter follow: and where M. Dorman shall have any thing peculiar, that will I directly answer myself. Now as the ignorance of the affinity between the Masters and the scholars books caused me to begin with M. Dormans' book, as an other new work untouched before, intending verefy to go through with the same: so in the process of the book, the knowledge thereof did grow more and more, and so much at the last, that I did not only by the style (as did Tully Theophrastes Disciple) but by the matter itself also, know D. Harding his scholar, so like to him, that he might seem his son also, and spit out of his mouth, as they say: so that in deed he may profess D. harding to be his master of very good right, as of whom he hath the learning that he showeth in this book. And had he not dedicate the book to D. harding, as to whom of right it appertaineth, being as a man learned in the law, not ignorant of the chief property of justice, suum cuique, he might have been justly accused of some unjust compilation of his masters almeries: seeing he is not yet his executor, as well as D. Smiths. This matter, I say perceived, enforced me to stay, lest I might seem of set purpose, though colourably, to have hasted to prevent the bishop of Sarisburie in answering D. harding, by answering M. Dorman: and so to have seemed willing, to go before him one way in hasty doing, whom I must needs follow a great way behind in all well doing. And were not this cause, (which yet is a great, and a just cause) I have not such leisure (which is the common case of us all) as to answer that, which I do hear say is already answered, and ready to print, as M. Dorman had leisure to write again, that which was before written by his Master: neither had I such leisure, list I, as he doth, blot paper with other men's doings. These are the very causes why I have stayed, and as yet have proceeded no further in the answeringeof M. dorman's book. But when I had passed thus far, and the bishops answer▪ as the report than went, was not fully finished, and many good mèn much desired some answer, and as many adversaries as much bragged, that their books would never be answered: the council of some friends, and such continual brag of so many adversaries caused me to suffer this little taste, as untimely fruit, the sooner to come abroad: that such as find double fault with us, for not answering speedily, or fully, might in part be satisfied. And the rather have I consented to such advise of my friends, for that by this taste that I have given the readers of M. Dorman, they shall know him thoroughly not a lion (as they say) by his long nails, but a liar by his lewd tales. For by the view hereof, they may not only judge of his whole treaty: but also, this principal part, and first front, (in the which M. Dorman, as a skilful man, hath placed the chief strength and force) or rather this, the very foundation of the whole being clean overthrown, (as I doubt not but it is) all the rest must needs come to ruin with all. At the least, I trust, I have so far satisfied the discrete reader concerning M. Dorman, that it shall suffice hereafter to pass over the residue of his book by brief notes. And I do trust also, that such as shall blame me most for not answering the whole, shallbe grieved moste that I have answered so much: and that those, that shall find most fault i● words with our slack answering, shall be most vexed in mind with our speedy answering. For as their books were not therefore suddenly written, for that they came suddenly abroad, so shall M. Rastell in his praefa econfesseth his book to have been begun four years ago. they, I doubt not, be answered speedily: that is, in shorter space than they were written in. And yet all speed is not always in most haste. For it may so fall out that M. Dorman with the whole company of his adhaerentes the Papists shall more easily write ten such books more at random, as this is written, then be able to maintain and to defend directly this little parcel of his book, as either truly or learnedly written. And thus much I thought good to say concerning our not speedy answering (as some men think) and my parcel answering (which some men will blame) for the satisfying of some, for all look not to satisfy, though all Dormans', and all other Papists, were altogether already so answered as they all might be ashamed of their doings, as I doubt nothing, god willing, but it shall shortly so come to pass, though peradventure not one amongst them all will ever confess the same. Now that I have so diligently and largely, and as it may seem carefully also, answered M. Dorman (whose own doings, I affirm to be more worthy of laughter, than of any earnest answer) which shall. I am sure, be laid also to my charge, I do certify the reader, that I do not answer the reasons alleged in this book, as M. dorman's, but as the reasons of D. harding, of whom M Dorman hath borrowed them: and not only Doctor hardings, but Eckrus, Pighius, and Hosius reasons also, yea and of all those, that have written in Latin for the Pope's usurped power, and supremacy, in whose writings the like reasons are to be found, and out of whom D. harding (as out of him M. Dorman) hath translated adverbum almost, such places as he thought for his purpose: wherefore I have used the more diligence, as under the name of one, answering so many. An other and most weighty cause why I have used such diligence and prolixity, is this: M. Dorman though he be a weak assailant and slender reasoner, yet is he a great liar, and a venomous slanderer: and therefore hath he set abroad a lewd book in deed, but not so lewd as slanderous: and slanderous not to several persons only, but to our whole country, to our laws, and to our gracious sovereign, whom he chargeth as usurping undue authority: slanderous I say, not here at home only, but abroad also in foreign countries. Wherefore whom so ever M. Dorman showeth himself to be, and how slender an answer soever might best become him: I thought it should become me, not slenderly to esteem the honour of my prince, my deity to my country, and to the laws of the realm: but with earnestness to repel such reproaches, as M. Dorman hath attempted to blemish them withal. thirdly for that the simple and unlearned readers have often best liking in books more boldly then learnedly written, and are most in danger to creadite most lewd and slanderous lies (in so much that a great many for the commendation of these virtues, do praeferre the Scholar before the Master, M. Dorman I mean, before D. harding, such is their judgement) I have therefore in answering more at large, applied myself to such as be of mean understanding, to whom the guileful dealings of the Papists can not with brevity be made manifest. For as a serpent at a touch thrusteth in his sting and venom: but the mischeafe in like wise can not be as suddenly cured, but requireth longer time, and business: so can not the slanderous and venomous lies by M. Dorman quickly told, be so quickly and briefly answered, with such plainness, as is meet for such who are most in danger to credit such false tales. Wherefore (good reader) if I shall seem to be too prolix and tedious, yea and to careful too in answering so largely and diligently such a one as M. Dorman showeth himself to be, specially in the beginning till I have made thee acquainted with his kind of writing, I trust thou shalt the better bear with me therein, if thou wilt bear these considerations in memory. Yet have I laboured to serve also the learned and occupied readers turn: For I have in the conclusion of this mine answer fol. 119. in few words touched the sum of the whole process before, whereunto if it shall please them at the first to resort, it may so satisfy them perhaps, that they shall not need to stay about the larger explication of mine answer in the former process of this book. And this for my earnest answer to so merry a man's book as is M. Dorman. Now as I have not dealt with him in his * railing, Reviling▪ Ribalrie. faculty, in the which I confess him to be invincible, and worthy to be not only Bachilar, but double Doctor thereof: so yet if M. Dormans' outrageous railings, and shameless lies shall cause me sometime to shape him an answer meet for such a man, as he is, I trust the reasonable reader will consider my not occasion, but enforcement rather thereunto: not only looking upon my sayings, and viewing how meet or unmeet they be for me: but how meet they be for his sayings and him, to whom I do make answer. Who doth so confidently affirm, and solemnly avouch that if our stomachs shall serve us to reply, he is sure that our evidence is Dorman. fol. 110. ●. so much, that six lines (to speak with the most) will receive with ease all that we have to write. which how truly it is spoken, shall be tried, I trust, by this little evidence that I have here given in, to thee (good Reader) against his counterfeit, and false forged writings: wherein is not of matter of truth, so much as six lines any where to be found. FINIS. Dorman. THE articles WHICH THE AUTHOR HATH TAKEN upon HIM TO PROVE, AGAINST M. IVELLES NEGATIVE. That the Bishop of Rome, is the head of Christ's universal church here in earth, and that within the first six hundred 1. years after Christ's departure hence, he was so called and taken. That the people was then taught to believe, that Christ's body is really, substantially, corporally, carnally, or naturally, in the 2 Sacrament. That the communion was then ministered under one kind. 3 That there was Mass said at that time, although there were 4 none to receive with the priest. Nowell. 1 M. Dormans' first article, is the fourth with D. harding. fol. 75. 2 His second article, is the fift with D. harding. folio. 96. 3 His third article is the second with D. harding. folio. 3●. 4 The last article is the first with D. harding. fol. 9 And thus as you see M. Dorman divers from his Master in the order of the matters: so shall you find his masters reasons and allegations in his book by like art disposed, that you may know that M. Dorman, though bachelor of Divinity, hath not yet forgotten all his Logic, and that he hath his Rhetoric in perfect memory. A REPROUFE OF M. Dorman in prima fronte libri. Augustinus contra literas Petiliani. lib. 2. cap. 16. Si quaeras, quibus fructibus vos esse potius lupos rapaces cognoscamus, obijcio schismatis crimen, quod tu negabis, ego autem statim probabo. Neque enim communicas omnibus gentibus, & illis ecclesiis Apostolico labore fundatis. That is to say. If thou demandest (he speaketh to Petilian the Heretic) by what fruits I know you to be rather the ravening wolves, I object to you the fault of schism, which thou wilt deny, but I will out of hand prove. For thou dost not communicate with all Nations, nor with those churches founded by th'apostles labour. Nowell. M. Dorman had either no great store of choice, or some lack of judgement, when he did choose S. Augustine's sentence upon the words of our Saviour of those false Prophets who coming in sheeps clothing, Math. 7. c. 15. are in deed ravening wolves: you shall know them by their fruits etc. For what sentence of all other in the Scriptures or Doctors doth more lively represent the adversaries themselves, who, following the old jewish priests, Scribes and Phariseis (of whom our Saviour spoke the said words) in walking gravely in long garments, pretending long prayers, preferring Mar. 12. d. 38. the amiable titles of the spirituality, of the church, Luc 20. g. 46. that loving mother, yea and of favourable fathers too: & professing with their foresaid forefathers, that they may kill no man, that they may not enter into the judgement place, for fear of pollution of that pure white johan. 18. e. 28. f. 31. fleece of their innocency: yea and when a condemned person falleth into their hands, to be committed to the fecular power, they pitifully make request, that Domine i●dex rogam vos etc. the wretch suffer no loss of life nor limb. And when they have so overspread and covered themselves with Vt in acts Regist. Lōdinensi●. these and such like sheepish white flieses, more softer than lambs will, and have so sheepishly bleated with words abhorring blood: than proceed they forward with their said Fathers, than play they most the most ravening wolves, & most show their insatiable thirst of murder and bloodshedding. Let Jerusalem, and the countries about sprinkled with the blood of our Saviour Christ, and his holy Apostles and Disciples testify this as most true in their forefathers, the Phariseis, Scribes, and high Priests: and let all parts of England, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, yea of all Christendom overspread with the blood of the innocent sheep of Christ's fold, men and w●men, yea young striplings, and maids those little lambs, shed by these ravening and bloudthristie wolves, testify the same most abundantly in our Phariseis, Scribes and high priests, the successors and children of those their old jewish forefathers: of whom, with their said forefathers as this sentence was spoken, so doth it most expressly represent and depaint them most lively in their natural colours, that ye may well know them by their fruits. For that they spoil poor widows houses, under that pretence of their long prayers, their diriges, Masses of Requiem, Trentals etc. is but a trifle with them: but the greater shallbe their damnation, as our Saviour saith. Now concerning Marc. 12. the schism which M. Dorman shooteth at chiefly: Luc. 20. We answer we have made none other schism from you, than did S. Paul make from the said high priests, Act. 22. a. 3. Scribes, and Phariseis your predecessors, from whom (though he were from his childhood brought up amongst them) he did well, & upon good ground depart, for that they had before departed, & made a schism from God, and his most holy law, to the traditions of the mother church of their Pharisaical fathers: as have likewise you Papists departed, & made a schism from Christ, and his Apostles doctrine, and from the ancient churches, founded by the Apostles labour, to your mother the romish synagogue, and have by your poisoned Popish traditions, slain more souls, than you have by your cruelty murdered bodies of Christian men and women, as we have proved, and will daily prove more and more most evidently unto the world, until all godly in the world, knowing you by your fruits, do forsake you (as did the godly before, forsake the old Phariseis, Scribes, and high Priests, and followed Christ and his holy Apostles) as we have partly already brought to a good forwardness. Thus you may see why we have departed from you, and returned to Christ, and his holy Apostles, and the churches by them founded, from whom you have departed. Return you to them, and we will not serve from you: take away the schism that you have made from Christ our saviour & his holy Apostles, and the churches founded upon their doctrine, and we will join with you. Otherwise, as long as you shall thus serve from Christ, and his Apostles, and their doctrine, cry you out against schismatics never so much, we will never join with you, being the very schismatics in deed. And thus much I thought to say to the sentence of S. Augustine against Petilian, by M. Dorman alleged, in the first front of his book, as against us, but in deed most directly detecting the schismatical sect of all Papists our adversaries, that I might leave no one sentence of any old doctor by M. Dorman, though colourably and falsely alleged, unanswered. To the Reader. I Do understand sith the first printing of this book, that much muttering and whispering is made by certain Papists, about certain places of my book, as false or faulty, and namely that place of S. Cyprian De simplicitate Praelatorum, It is to be found fol. 49 b. of the first print and fol. 50. b. of this print. as by me guilefully alleged, by omitting that which maketh (as they say) for them and their Pope's Supremacy. This Popish practice by muttering, whispering, poinctinge, quarelling and lying, to attempt the defacing of the simple and plain truth, and to the maintenance of their own untruth, is no new practice, neither happeneth it to me unloosed for at this time: which they fail not to do to all men, and in all matters at all times. But as I can not certainly answeareuncertaine corner mutteringes, so as soon as I shall see any certain thing set forth in Print to the world against my book, I will, God willing, not leave it longeunanswered, as well to the advouchinge of my true dealing, as to the declaration of theiruniustquarellinge, and consequently, as I trust, to the more full satisfaction of all reasonable Readers, that do love truth and sincerity. A. Nowell. Dorman. Fol. 1. A PREFACE, OR introduction to the first Proposition. THE blessed Martyr of God S. Cyprian, Nowell. It is Epist. ●. writing to one Rogatianus a Lib. epist. 3. Epist. 11. Bishop of his province hath these words. Initia haereticorum, & ortus atque conatus schismaticorum malè cogitant ium haec sunt: ut sibi placeant, ut praepositum supèrbo tumore contemnant. Sic de occlesia receditur sic al●are prophanum for is collocatur: sic contra pacem Christi, & ordinationem, atque unitatem Dei rebellatur: Which is in English thus much to say: The beginning of heretics; the first springing up, and enterprise of schismatics thinking a miss in matters of faith, groweth of pleasure that they take in themselves, & of that, that being puffed up with pride, they contemn their head, and governor appointed over them. By this means stray they from the Church. Thus is a profane altar placed without the doors, and thus rebel they against Christ's peace, god's ordinance and unity. Nowell. Saint Cyprian writing this Epistle to Rogatian one of his fellow bishops in Africa, who had a disobedient deacon, hath in the beginning of his letter these words: Graviter & dolenter. etc. I, and my fellow bishops here present, were sore moved, most dear brother (saith saint Cyprian) when we had red your letters: wherein you complain of your deacon, that he forgetting your priestly place, and his own ministery, hath grieved you with his reproaches and wrongs. Thus far S. Cyprian. By which words it appeareth that the matter was between Rogatian a bishop in Africa, and his deacon disobedient to him: and therefore nothing appertaining to the bishop of Rome's supremacy at all. Which might well have appeared to the reader, had master Dorman written but the iiij. lines next before the place by him alleged, which are these: Ideo oportet diaconum. etc. That is to say: Therefore it is meet that the Deacon, of whom you do write, do penance for his boldness, that he acknowledge the honour of the priest, and do satisfy the bishop his superior, with full humility. For the beginning of heretics, the springing up & enterprise of schismatics, being evil minded, are these: that they do stand in their own conceit, that they despise their governor through swelling pride. etc. As Master Dorman hath out of saint Cyprian alleged. This declareth most evidently, that the sentence of S. Cyprian, alleged by M. Dorman, appertaineth to Rogatian and his deacon, being Africanes: and so generally, to all other bishops, & their inferiors, of what country soever they be: and maketh nothing for the Bishop of Rome's supremacy at all. If M. Dorman would prove hereby, that every inferior minister ought to be obedient to his own bishop, as his superior: or that the disobedience of such is cause of schisms and heresies, (for so doth S. Cyprian mean) we grant the same. But if he would have it appertain to the bishop of Rome, or to make any thing for the Pope's supremacy (as by that M. Dorman calleth this an introduction to the proof of his first proposition, which is, of the Pope's supremacy: and by the process of this his preface also, it doth plainly appear, that he meaneth) he abuseth shamefully the authority of S. Cyprian: and thinketh all the world, saving himself alone, asleape, and blind on both sides too: Considering that that in all this Epistle, there is not one word of the bishop of Rome, or his supremacy, nor he as much as once named therein. Dorman. fol. I. And again in an other place he writeth thus: undè enim schismata & haereses obortae sunt, nisi dum episcopus qui unus Lib. 4. Epist. 9 est, & ecclesiae praeest, superba quorundam praesumptione contemnitur, & homo dignatione dei honoratus, ab indignis hominibus indicatur? Whereof [saith he] do heresies and schisms spring, but of this, that the bishop which is one, and governeth the church, is through the proud and arrogant presumption of certain, contemned and set at nought, and being the man by God's approbation allowed, and honoured, is of unworthy men judged. Nowell. M. Dorman trusted that as soon as these words, The bishop which is one, and governeth the church is despised: the man by gods approbation allowed, is of unworthy men judged, should be red, or heard of the simple, they would nothing doubt, but that the Pope of Rome despised by such as we be, was meant thereby. But this epistle, as it is written by S. Cyprian to one Pupianus, so doth it entreat of them two, and their matters: and nothing concerneth the bishop of Rome. For as before, by the head and governor appointed, Rogatian was meant, and not the Pope: so in this place, by the bishop, which is one, and governeth the church: by the man by God's approbation allowed, and honoured, and of unworthy men judged, Saint Cyprian himself, bishop of Carthage, is meant: who was abused by the said Pupianus, and to whom he did write this epistle, reproving him for his disobedience to his bishop, (S. Cyprian) who was the only man allowed by God's approbation, to govern the Church of Carthage: and so by the said Pupian, as his inferior, to be obeyed. Wherefore this place is as impertinente to M. Dorman his purpose, as was the former place. For neither in this long Epistle is there as much as one word of the bishop of Rome. I conclude therefore, that these places are by M. Dorman falsely and shamelessly alleged, to make a show, or as he calleth it, an introduction to the bishop of Rome his authority, whereunto they appertain nothing at all, but only to the eversion thereof. And that M. Dorman hath thereby declared, what credit he deserveth in the rest of his book, continued with like impudent lies. Touching S. Cyprian his phrase of one bishop of the church, which M. Dorman taketh as signifying one bishop over the whole church, for that the falseness of that collection, is at large explicated after in a more peculiar place, I pretermitte here to speak of it. Only this is most evident, in what sense so ever S. Cyprian taketh these words (one bishop that ruleth the church) the bishop of Carthage is that one bishop, and not the bishop of Rome: and therefore that phrase of one bishop ruling the church, can make nothing for the bishop of Rome his supremacy, but rather doth utterly overthrow it, as appertaining specially to the bishop of Carthage, in A●rike: not to the bishop of Rome, in Italy: and declaring in deed, the bishops of all places to be equal in authority, and consequently overthrowing the supremacy of one over all. Dorman. fol. ●. The very same thing, although in other words, Epist. 61. 2● Episcopos Italiam & Galliam. Nowell. It is Epist. 69. doth S. Basile in an epistle written by him, to the bishops of Italy and France, bewailing therein the estate of his time, most plainly declare. Whose words, because they do lively represent unto us, the most miserable face of this our age: I have thought good to allege, & set before your eyes. Ambitions eorum qui dominum non timent, * praesidentias invadunt, et in propatulo de caetero impietatis praemium proposita est prima sedes. Quare, qui graviores blasphemias protulit * ad populi episcopumpotior habetur. Perijt authoritas sacerdotal●s, populi admoneri nolunt, praesides dicendi libertatem non habent. Silent piorumora, permissumest autem dicere omni blasphemae linguae. Prophanata sunt sacra. That is to He should have said, say. The pride▪ and ambition of them which fear not our lord * they invade the chief rooms or places. doth invade and set upon their heads, and openly the chiefest place, is proposed as a reward for wickedness. And therefore he that can utter * he is counted more worthy to be the bishop of the people. against the bishop of the people, most grievous and slanderous blasphemies, is accounted of greatest price, and had in most estimation. Th'authority of priesthood is lost. The laite will not be admonished. The rulers be restrained of liberty to speak. The mouths of good men keep silence. Every blasphemous tongue is set at liberty. All holy things are made profane. Hitherto S. Basil. Nowell. M. Dorman doth not (as he said he would) set Saint basiles words before your eyes: but doth go about (as much as he can) to blear your eyes, that you should not see the truth. For he is so desirous to make some show for the Pope's supremacy, that he would by false translation wrest places of the doctors, moste impertinente, to make them seem to sound that way: and therefore in this place, in steed of these words, praesidentias invadunt, they do invade the chief rooms: he hath translated, they do invade and set upon their heads. And again in stead of these words, He that can utter most grievous blasphemies (to wit against Christ and the holy ghost) is accounted more worthy to be the bishop of the people: he hath thus translated, he that can utter against the bishop of the people, most grievous and slanderous blasphemies, is accounted of greatest price, and had in most estimation. Thus hath M. Dorman translated this place, whether negligently, as half a sleep, according to his name: or ignorantly, as he that could not see, though broad waking: or maliciously, witting and willing did he falsify it, to make it seem as spoken of the bishop of Rome, whom he would have to be taken for the head, and the bishop of the people: And us he would have to be taken for the invaders of the said head, and the blasphemers of that bishop, as it were of God himself, against whom properly is blasphemy. But let S. basil himself be judge, between M. Dorman, and me: whose words in th'epistle following, where he entreateth of the same matter, and the which also M. Dorman hereafter allegeth, are these. unigenitus blasphematur, & non est qui contradicat: Spiritus sanctus ignominia afficitur, & qui potest redarguere fugatur. etc. To say: The only son of God (Christ) is blasphemed, and there is none to gain say it: the holy ghost is reproached, and he that is able to reprove it, is chased away. Thus far saint basil. Lo M. Dorman, who is blasphemed, not the bishop of the people, as you do dream, but our saviour Christ, and the holy ghost are blasphemed: and such blasphemers are judged most worthy to be bishops of the people. This is the truth, this is saint basiles mind, that the blasphemer is made bishop of the people, and not, the bishop of the people blasphemed. It is easy to perceive therefore, good readers, that this is most far from all purpose, that he allegeth by patching here and there, out of Basilius Magnus his. 69 epistle, to the Bishops of Italy and France, and overpassing purposely sentences, directly touching the adversaries themselves: where saint basil declareth the miserable state of all the east Churches, even from Illyrike, to Thebaida (as he there saith) by reason of the disturbance that all good and godly bishops of the said east Churches (which were of the Greeks for the most part) suffered by the Arrians, whose heresies all the world doth know how much we do abhor. And therefore even the chief of the Hosius contra Brentium lib▪ 1. folio. 24. & lib. 5. fol. 249. Papists can not but therefore much commend us. What abuse therefore is this of the readers, and of his own, and other men's time, that M. Dorman should charge us with the crimes of those men, whose heresies and wickedness, it is well known, we do most detest. But as before he abused certain words of S. Cyprian: so here, because mention is made by S. basil of these words: Praesidentias invadunt, prima sedes, & populi episcopus. That is to say, They invade the highest rooms, the chief see, and the bishop of the people: he trusted that the ignorant would take the said words, as meant of the bishop of Rome, and his authority, and of our contempt of the same. But both this. 69. epistle, and the epistle following, by master Dorman also hereafter alleged, do manifestly declare, all these words to appertain to the east churches, and to the Bishops of the east churches, and not to the Bishop of Rome: and that the chief rooms so invaded, be the bishoprics of the east churches, and not the Bishopric of Rome: and the set of every of them, is that chief see, or place proposed for a reward of wickedness, and not Rome: and that the blasphemous Arrian is that bishop of the people: whoons if master Dorman will have to be the Bishop of Rome, I will not much labour to let him. And so all this is altogether impertinent to his purpose, to make any show for the Pope's authority, or any resemblance of our doings against the Pope. For if he would have it to pertain to us, as doing the like now as was done in saint basiles time by the Arrians (For he saith, it doth lively represent our times) why may not we with as good, and more reason, affirm it rather to appertain to the Papists themselves, and most lively to represent their doings? It is their passing pride and ambition, which showeth that they fear not the Lord. They have invaded presidences, not only ecclesiastical, but temporal also, having the titles of bishops, leading the lives of temporal Lords and Princes. The more wicked that any of them is, the more blasphemous, the more likely is he to climb to the highest place, as his due reward. Which hath been observed for a rule in the election to the Papacy, the highest place of all, this many hundredth years. What speak I of election? For the obtaining of the which highest place among them, so many frauds, simonies, poisonynges, bloody fights, and murders have been committed: as may to such, who will read their own stories, well appear. Yea the verse Pope that now is, In oratione habita in consistorio Romae 1564. Februario mense typis excusa. Pius the fourth, doth pitifully complain, that not only Simony, and corruption by largition of huge sums of money, but also force and arms have been attempted, to deprive him yet living, of his Papacy, and to place an other. To proceed, the authority of Priests is lost amongst the Papists, and turned into temporal lordship. The rulers of the clergy among the Papists can not teach the people, they are so ignorant: and their lives be such, that they have lost their liberty to speak against vices, where of themselves are most guilty: and the laity doth disdain to be by such admonished. Where the Papists do bear sway, there are all godly men's mouths stopped by their exceeding cruelty: only blasphemous Friars have their tongues at liberty. The holy Sacraments are profaned by their superstitions: the holy word of God is corrupted by their gloss, and Traditions. In sum, all holy things are by their unholy doings polluted and defiled. And thus far touching as much as is by M. Dorman alleged out of S. basil, and how it doth right well agree with our adversaries. Basil. epist. 69. Now S. basil hath more matter, which master Dorman hath of purpose overpassed, as in his own ears somewhat sounding of Popish properties: to wit, that the authority of Priests was lost, for that there a Defecerunt qui pascunt cum scientia ouile domini. lacked in the clergy such as could with knowledge feed the lords fold: for that b Aconomias pauperum in proprias voluptates insumunt they of the clergy converted the provision, made in the church for the poor, to their own pleasures: kept c Annihilata est canonum sinceritas. not the Canons and rules ecclesiastical: d Licentia peccandi multa. etc. used all liberty in sinning: came to dignities Ecclesiastical by men's favour, more than their own worthiness: and e servi enim sunt eorum qui beneficium contulerunt. so became their bond men, who bestowed upon such benefit or benefice. This hath also S. basil in that Epistle. Now what ignorance of God's law was in the Popish clergy, until we stirred them up to their books: what riotous wasting of ecclesiastical possessions upon their own pleasure, before we did find fault with it: what breach both of God's law, and of the old Canons Ecclesiastical, yea even of their own Popish decrees also: what liberty and impunity of most wicked life, until all the world cried out upon them: what suit, simony and ambition for Ecclesiastical promotions, was amongst the Popish clergy: how many of them for bribes or worldly favour were promoted: how few for their own worthiness, was well known over all Christendom, and can not yet be forgotten. I am sure therefore, that this whole place of S. basil may more justly be applied to the Papists, then to us. And it is not unknown to M. Dorman, that it is in reasoning the greatest fault that can be, to bring that for him, which may be either common to his adversaries, or returned back against himself. Wherefore I beseech thee good reader, consider the sincerity of M. Dorman, who, upon such places as are these, taken out of saint Cyprian, and S. basil, as it were upon good and substantial grounds, concluded thus. Dorman. Fol. I. To be short, there was never yet any heretic amongst Nowell. Hosius against Brentius, lib 2 Fol. 42. hath the same. so many as from time to time, have continually troubled the Church of God, that made not his first entry into his heresies, by the proclaiming [as it were] of open war, against the beautiful order of the church [which they have always foreseen to be to them, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata, terrible as is the froonte of a battle well set in order] and against the bishop of Rome, appointed of God to be here in earth, the lawful governor and head thereof, not lacking also therein great policy, that by striking the shepherd, they might the easilier scatter the flock. Nowell. You see here the conclusion gathered out of that, which hitherto by him hath been alleged out of S. Cyprian, and saint basil. And how the very words written by saint Cyprian, in the places before mentioned, for the maintenance of bishop Rogatian his authority, and for his own authority also, they being both Bishops of Africa, he is not ashamed here in his conclusion, to place out of place, and to apply them to the proof of the bishop of Rome his supremacy, whereunto they appertain nothing at all: and to frame thereof this lewd argument: The entry into all heresies is, to make open wars against the bishop appointed by God, to be the lawful governor and head of the church. This is the mayor, and is proved by S. Cyprian: now followeth his minor, but the bishop of Rome is the bishop appointed by God, to be here in earth the lawful governor, and head of the church: the conclusion: ergo, The entry into all heresies is to make open war against the bishop of Rome. I sai● the minor, is false, and a false conclusion doth follow of the same. For the bishop (of whom S. Cyprian speaketh) appointed by God to be lawful governor, and head of the church, is in Carthage S. Cyprian himself: and Rogatian, in his own Diocese: and not the Bishop of Rome, otherwise then in his own Diocese only. And therefore open war to be made against them, in their own Diocese, whereof they be lawful bishops, is the beginning of heresies, and not to resist the bishop of Rome, usurping to be head of the universal Church, over the which, of right, he hath no authority. For these words. [the bishop appointed by God, to be the lawful governor and head of the church] if they make for any supremacy at all, they make for the supremacy of Rogatian, and Cyprian bishops of Africa, of whom S. Cyprian speaketh them: and not of the bishop of Rome, of whom in those Epistles he speaketh not one word. And if they make not for the supremacy of Cyprian, & Rogatian, they make for none at all: and if they make for no supremacy at all, they were here without all cause alleged by M. Dorman, but only to deceive the simple, by such a guileful, and untrue introduction to his first false proposition, of the Pope his supremacy. Now if he think yet that he might make such a simple collection of S. Cyprian and S. basil his words, as this: That as the beginning of heresies in their time, was the contempt of the inferiors towards their own Bishops (for so S. Cyprian teacheth) so in likewise is the contempt of the Pope, as the highest of all bishops, the beginning of heresies now. First I deny the argument, for that it followeth not, though it be evil for the inferior to disobey his own bishop, to whose obedience in all godliness he is bounden. Therefore it is evil for a stranger, not to obey a strange foreign usurper, to whom he oweth no duty of obedience. Again I say, though it be the beginning of heresy, to disobey Cyprian, Rogatian, yea or Cornelius, being godly and catholic bishops: yet is it not likewise the beginning of heresies, to disobey any the late Popes of Rome: who were not only no godly bishops (as were Cyprian, Rogatian, and Cornelius) but both most wicked, and in deed no Bishops at all, but false usurpers of worldly tyranny. Whom, for the subjects of an other christian and lawful sovereign, to obey, and not to disobey, is Basilius Epistola. 70. Persecutionem patiuntur pastors, ut disꝑgantur oves gregis. the beginning of heresies, treasons, and all other evils and mischiefs. In the conclusion it is to be noted, when basil speaketh of all the Bishops of the east, as the shepherds suffering persecution: master Dorman altering the number, speaketh it of the Pope, as the only shepherd: Removing the matter from many Greek pastors persecuted, to one Roman depastors dispersing the flock, and persecuting, not suffering persecution. Dorman. Fol. 2. Thus did in the time of S. Cyprian, Novatus that Lib. 6. ca 30. Nowell. It is cap. 3. and not. 30. The like is Eusebii libr. 6. cap. 43. and in sundry Epistles of S. Cyprian, who doth speak most of Novatianus. great heretic, who as Nicephorus reporteth of him, holding between his hands, the hands of such as minded to receive of him, the blessed Sacrament of th'altar: used to them these words. A diura mihi per corpus et sanguinem domini jesu Christi nunquam te a me discessurum, et ad Cornelium (Romanus is Episcopus fuit) reredituruinesse. Swear to me ꝙ he, by the body, and blood of our Lord jesus Christ, that thou wilt never forsake me, nor return to Cornelius, who was then bishop of Rome. So did in our time the scholars and followers of Martin Luther. So did John Calvin with his congregation at Geneva: So do even at this time, in our infortunate country, those wicked men [upon whom I beseech almighty God to extend his mercy] who occupying the places, and rooms of catholic bishops, being themselves indurate heretics, cease not daily most cruelly to practise, that lesson learned of their ancestor Novatus. For what man admit they to any living, of whom they exact not first this oath? Whom suffer they to continued in his living, if he give not this oath? For the only refusal hereof, how many notable men of the clergy, both for life and learning, suffer they to pine away in prison? I remember not hear, the great number of gentlemen, and other mere lay men not included in the statute, of poor young Scholars of both th'universities, who witheout all face of law (for, for the other they pretended The banishment of scholars from the vniu●rsities, for refusing to swear against the Pope. a colour) being not so much themselves spoiled of their colleages, as their colleages, universities, yea their country self (which had of the most part of them been likely to have received both help and comfort) spoiled and rob of them: wander now abroad in dispersion, lamenting th'estate of their miserable country. Nowell. As it is evident, that we are most far from Nonatus' heresy, so is Novatus his oath not only unlike, but clean contrary to our oaths. The controversy betwixt Cornelius and Novatus was not, whether the bishop of Rome was the supreme head of the church, (as it is now between us and the Papists) but whether Cornelius or he was by right the Bishop of Rome. And Novatus exacted of the Romans, or Italians, an oath, that they should cleave to him as their bishop, against Cornelius, who was their true Bishop in Eusebius libr. 6. cap. 43. deed: which was unlawful to require. Our oaths be of obedience to our natural Prince, due by God's law: and of renouncing of foreign usurped power, or authority over our Prince and country: without the which, we can not be faithful to our own sovereign. But let us consider his words. Thus did Novatus, saith M. Dorman, as though Novatus had made his first entry to his heresies, by making open war against the bishop of Rome, appointed by God to be the lawful governor, and head of the church: and as though, he made them renounce the said bishop of Rome's supremacy. For his words, thus did Novatus. etc. (Which must needs have relation to that, which goeth before) do import no less. And his applying of this oath of Novatus, to our oaths, enforceth the same. But Novatus made neither the beginning, nor ending of his heresies, about any denying of Cornelius supremacy, as bishop of Rome: nor exacted any oath for that purpose. For such usurped authority of the bishop of Rome, was then unknown and unheard of, as shall hereafter most plainly appear. But the Cyprianus li. 3. Epist. 13. Eusebius li. 6. cap. 43. Nicephorus lib. 6. cap. 3. oath which Novatus required was, that they should acknowledge him for their bishop, and not Cornelius who was their Bishop in deed. And further the said oath concerned the maintenance of Novatus his heresy: which was, that such, as for fear of torments had renounced the Christian faith, or had offered Incense to the Idols of the Gentiles, though they repented therefore, were not to be received into the church again: which cruel opinion, as well S. Cyprian bishop of Carthage, as Cornelius bishop of Rome, with all other godly bishops, condemned: and taught the contrary true doctrine, that such also, upon due repentance, might be received again into the church: according as we this day, do also most earnestly believe and teach. Now as Novatus being in Italy required an oath, that their adherentes Romans', or Italians, should not turn to Cornelius bishop of Rome, to acknowledge him for their bishop, to be of his faith, and to communicate with him: so did the professors of the same heresies travel in Africa with their disciples there, being Africanes, that they should not return to Cyprianus lib. 4. epist. 9 Cyprian Bishop of Carthage, to communicate with him. Which, as it maketh nothing for any supremacy of S. Cyprian bishop of Carthage, no more maketh the other for any supremacy of Cornelius bishop of Rome. For though it be unlawful to exact an oath of any, to disobey their own godly bishops, what proveth that, that one may not swear to refuse the obedience of an alien and wicked usurper, and to keep him in the obedience of his own sovereign? And where Novatus began first his heresy in Africa by striving against S. Cyprian, as S. Cyprian himself Cyprianus li. 2. epi. 8 Idenest Novatus qui apud ●os primum discordiae & schisma tis incendium seminavit etc. doth witness, and not by striving first against Cornelius bishop of Rome, (as M. Dorman untruely reporteth) the beginning of heresies is rather to make war, and strife against the bishop of Carthage, then against the bishop of Rome, as M. Dorman would have it. But there was then neither striving, nor any oath required, concerning the bishop of Rome, as head of the church, as by that whole process in S. Cyprian, Eusebius, and Nicephorus it doth plainly appear. Wherefore M. Dorman may be ashamed to forge so manifest a lie, as that Novatus exacted an oath against the Pope's supremacy: or that we follow Novatus in exacting like oath as he did. And seeing that we do most detest that cruel heresy of Novatus, and do firmly believe, and earnestly teach as did S. Cyprian, and Cornelius, it is as maliciously, as untruely done of M. Dorman, not only to apply to us the example of Novatus oath, exacted for the maintenance of his heresies: but also to call Novatus our ancestor, and our Bishops as his disciples, indurate heretics: who do most abhor both Novatus, and his heresy, and most earnestly, and pithily in all their writings and Sermons do impugn the same, by setting forth to their power, the unspeakable mercy of God towards all sinners truly penitent. Whereby it may appear to the discreet readers, that M. Dorman, and such other malicious adversaries, pass not much whether they lie, or say truth, so they may bring us, by hook or crook out of credit, and into the hatred of the world. I believe also that M. Dorman in the alleagation of Novatus his oath, had a further respect to that he maketh mention of the body & blood of Christ: by the which, because Novatus caused them to swear, M. Dorman thought belike, thereby to prove, or at least to make an insinuation, to the simple, that the body and blood of Christ, should be corporally present in the Sacrament: but the daily oaths of blasphemous men, swearing likewise in his corporal absence, do confute that collection. And to the end, that M. Dorman should gain nothing in that matter of the Sacrament, by this place, I have thought good to admonish the reader, that the said place of Nicephorus and Eusebius (of whom Nicephorus had it) is directly against Nicephorus lib. 6. cap. 3. Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 43. their transubstantiation, and for our usage now in the church. The words of Nicephorus a little before the place by M. Dorman alleged, are these: Quum enim oblationes offerret, qui mos sacerdotibus est, & iam ad distributionem panis pervenisset, data cuilibet part sua, pro eo quòd cum gratiarum eam actione percipere debebant, jurare miseros coegit. Vtranque enim percipientium manum comprimens, non prius eas remisit, quàm iuratum ab eis esset: [utar autem verbis eius conceptis] Adiura mihi per sanguinem & corpus domini nostri jesu Christi, nunquam te à me discessurum, & ad Cornelium [Romanus hic fuit episcopus] rediturum esse. Miseri autem illi non prius quod acceperant, degustarunt, quàm se illi devouerunt. That is to say, When Novatus made his offerings, as the manner of Priests is, and now was come to the distribution of the bread, he, delivering every one his part, in the steed of due thanks giving in the receiving of the same, compelled the wretched men to swear: for he laying hold on both the hands of the receivers, did not let them go, until they had sworn: (for I will use his own very words) Swear to me by the body and blood of our Lord jesus Christ, that thou wilt never forsake me, nor return to Cornelius, who was then bishop of Rome. And those wretched men did not taste that, which they had received, afore they had by oath assured themselves to him. etc. Thus far Nicephorus. Eusebius, who hath the very same words, calleth it bread also. And so if M. Dorman thought this place by the way, might serve for their purpose in the matter of the lords supper (which he here calleth the sacrament of th'altar) he was far deceived. For both Nicephorus and Eusebius calling it after the consecration (as they term it) bread, and Nicephorus saying that they tasted that which they received, that is to say, bread: and by the circumstances it appearing, that the use of the primitive church than, was agreeable to our use now, in giving the Sacrament into the receivers hands, both is their transubstantiation clean everted, by two witnesses, even by M. Dorman himself chosen: and we are declared by the same witnesses, to be the very followers of the primitive church, in that usage of delivering of the Sacrament into the receivers hands. For the which yet they charge us, as horrible profaners of the holy Sacrament. But to cloak these matters, where Nicephorus calleth it the distribution of the bread, M. Dorman calleth it the blessed sacrament of th'altar. And where Nicephorus saith, he gave every one his part, before he caused them to swear: M. Dorman saith, he caused such as minded to receive of him the blessed Sacrament of the altar, to swear: where as in deed, they had received it of him into their hands before: as is also in Nicephorus book in the margente, noted by joannes Langus, the translator joan. Langus. Ea tempestate laicis etiam Eucharistiaī manus dabatur: quod postea in Ecclesia mutatum est. thereof, and councelour to the late Emperor Ferdinandus, that the custom of the Church than was, to deliver the Sacrament into the receivers hands. But in deed this is M. Dorman his ordinary custom in alleging of authors, to pass over with silence that which is against him, and to take that which maketh a show for him, and withal to add that is not in the author, in such sort, as the ignorant would think it to be the authors very words. I know, it is impertinente to entreat of the matter of the Sacrament, in this controversy of the Pope's supremacy: but M. Dorman, of purpose as it seemeth, doth mingle such things by the way: which, if they be there answered, shall make a mingle mangle of divers matters unpleasant to the reader: and if they be passed over not answered, as impertinent to the present treaty, he trusted it would serve to entangle the simple, and withal to be an occasion to his favourers, to triumph in the mean time, as though we dissembled the matter by silence, for that we could say nothing to it. But to return to the purpose again: whereas M. Dorman hath here in one half leaf, heaped a great number of evident lies, as it were, in a packet together, I have thought good to put the reader in remembrance of them, in order as they lie. The first lie is, that after his discourse out of S. Cyprian, of the Bishop appointed by God, to be the governor and head of the Church, he saith, the bishop of Rome is that head, whereas by S. Cyprian, the contrary is evident: and that himself, 1. or bishop Rogatian is that head, whereof he speaketh, as hath been fully heretofore declared. The second is, that to make war against the Bishop of Rome, is the first entry to heresy. Whereas S. Cyprian 2. teacheth, that the contempt of every godly bishop in his own diocese, by such as are their inferiors, is the beginning of heresies. The third is, that he saith: Thus did Novatus: to wit, that Novatus 3. made hi●yrst entry into his heresies, by making open warr● against the bishop of Rome, appointed by God to be in earth the governor and head of the Church: which is a double lie, and maiestande for two. For Novatus began his heresies first in Africa, and contended with S. Cyprian, before he troubled Cornelius Cyprianus lib. 2. epist. 8. at Rome, as by the testimony of S. Cyprian is evident. Wherefore his entry to his heresies, was his proclaiming of open war against S. Cyprian, appointed by God, to be the governor and head of the Church, as S. Cyprian himself saith. The other part of this lie is, that he saith, Novatus made war against him, as the governor and head of the church: for his words, Thus did Novatus, must needs be referred to that which went before: but Novatus took not Cornelius, but himself to be bishop of Rome, as doth by the story evidently appear: wherefore the strife between them was not, whether Cornelius as bishop of Rome was head of the church (as M. Dorman would have it seem) but whether he, or Novatus were bishop of Rome. The fourth lie is a double lie also: where he reporteth that Nicephorus saith, that Novatus holding 4. between his hands, the hands of such as minded to receive of him the blessed Sacrament of the altar, used these words. etc. For Nicephorus hath no such words, but he saith thus: when Novatus was come to the distribution of the bread, he giving every one his part, caused them to swear. etc. And this doublelie, the receiving of the blessed Sacrament of the altar, in s●eede of the distribution of bread, and they that minded to receive it, where as they had received it already into their hands, he made of purpose to save their transubstantiation harmless, and to keep it secret, that our usage in delivering the Sacrament into the receivers hands, is agreeable to th●●rimitiue church. The●ifte lie is, that he saith, we do swear men in such sort as Novatus did: and that no man 5. can either get any living, or kept that he hath without making of this oath: Meaning such as Novatus exacted. But Novatus exacted an oath of the Romans to cleaus to him against their own Bishop, which was unlawful. We require an oath of subjects Englishmen, of obedience to their and our natural Prince, and of renouncing all foreign and usurped power. Again Novatus caused them to swear that his heresy was the truth, and that Cornelius true doctrine was heresy. We have no such matters in hand, but are on Cornelius side against Novatus, teaching the same doctrine that Cornelius did, abhorring the heresy that Novatus taught. Wherefore in this manifold fable of M. dorman's, amplified by his Rhetoric, look how often he saith, so did Luther, so did Caluine, so do those wicked men in our country: as oft, as he saith: They exacted this oath. etc. If he give not this oath. etc. So many times as M. Dorman doth repeat these words, this and so, so many loud, lewd lies hath he made, one upon an others back: whereas in deed it is neither so, nor so. This M. Dormans' deceitful dealing, most usual unto him, was the cause why I said once in public place, that I had not found any one authority by him, (as far as then I had red) truly alleged, besides his untrue noting of the places in the margin. Which, though it sometime happen by negligence of Printers, M. Dorman yet in this book, being otherwise so diligently printed, may seem of set purpose to have done, lest such as would be inquisitive, should to speedily find out the lewdness of his allegations, serving nothing to his purpose: unless perhaps master Dorman did never use his own eyes, in viewing of these places, but did credit his collectors therein altogether, as in the process of his doings doth credibly appear that he did. For in one leaf, or little more, of four only places by him alleged, three thereof be noted untruly, that he might therein agree with his Fol. 1. Episto. 11. for 9 guileful and untrue applying of places of the doctors Fol. codem epi. 61. for. 69. Folly 2. in principio, cap. 30. for cap. 3. and authors, altogether impertinente to the matter he treateth of. Which as in all places he faileth not to do, so hath he in this place, as you see, well performed the same. Who also proceeding therein, calleth Novatus our ancestor, and our bishops, as his disciples, at his pleasure, he calleth, indurate heretics: where it is known to all that understand, that we most abhor Novatus, & his heresies: and goeth on saying, that for the only refusal of this oath, how many notable men of the clergy, both for life, & learning, suffer they to pine away in prison? M. Dorman, this oath ye talk of, was never required of them: and they pine not, but far well, & of other men's cost too, a great many of them: they be well fed, and in good liking: & some of them so fat, as they may wallow too. They neither sit, nor hung in stocks, by legs or fingers, nor have their necks in chains: they are neither whipped, nor scourged, as some of them used others. In sickness time they had their progresses, both for health, & pleasure too. Where M. Dorman saith, that gentlemen, lay men, and scholars of the university are put to the said oath (which in deed is of due obedience to their natural Sovereign) without all face or colour of law, & for refusing thereof are spoiled of their country, and wander in dispersion, lamenting the miserable estate of their said country: I doubt not, but had they refused to swear to that false Romish usurper, in the time of his tyranny in England, there would have been face and colour of law enough found, to have spoiled them of their lives also, by most cruel death. And such gentlemen & scholars, as could so easy swear fidelity to such a foreign false usurper, & would wander in dispersion, rather than take the oath of due obedience of their natural prince, do worthily wander in dispersion: & maze more justly bewail their own wicked folly, the cause thereof, than the misery of their country: which, thanks be to God, is in no such case, but in far better than they would have it to be. Had we feared no worse at your hands, than any of these, whose case you so lament, do suffer, we would never have forsaken our natural country, wandering in far more miserable dispersion, than you do: we would in our country have bitterly lamented, the pitiful case of our country, then most miserably oppressed with Popish superstition, and foreign tyranny: and, would you have been satisfied with our tears, and not have forced us most cruelly to have shed all the drops of blout in our bodies, and very hearts, we should not have thought ourselves to have suffered any persecution at all, but rather to have received great friendship, and courtesy at your hands. But what fables so ever it doth please M. Dorman to fourge about our lawful oaths, and what cruelty so ever he feigneth us to use, making a great matter of every trifle, touching the Papists, it is true, and to true, that for refusing of that most unlawful, and wicked oath of the Pope's supremacy, and not acknowledging of his usurped authority, a great number both of learned, and unlearned: as well of the laity, as of the clergy: of women, as men: of young, as old, have lost not only their livings, and all their goods, but also as many of them as escaped not out of their country into miserable exile, were apprehended and cast into most vile prison, being not set, but hanged, as I have said, in stocks, and irons, by feet, hands, and neck. And after long punishments, and pining, most painful, & pitiful also, to all, saving only pitiless papists, have finally lost their lives, being most cruelly consumed by terrible flames of fire into ashes, if they might obtain so much mercy, as to escape that usual, long, lingering, and roasting in slack and smoky fire. And yet M. Dorman thinketh it much that they, who have in this wise used others, for the refusing of most wicked oaths, and th'authority of a false foreign usurper, should themselves lack some part of their livings, and liberty, for refusing to acknowledge the lawful authority of their own natural sovereign. And further, whereas M. Dorman doth make such a tragedy, about our most lawful oaths of due obedience to our natural sovereign, and of the refusing of foreign usurped power: I shall, in place convenient, make good proof, that that false usurper, the bishop of Rome, hath both wickedly exacted moste unlawful oaths, not only of subjects, but of Princes, and emperors also: and hath more wickedly dispensed with the lawful oaths of subjects, of obedience to their own natural soveraines', and procured them to rebel against their Princes, to the great effusion of Christian men's blood, and utter decay of all christendom. Dorman. Fol. 2. Of the which they may, and we all justly now say, Epist. 70. Nowell. All this place hath M. Dorman translated out of Hosius lib. 2. contra Brentium fol. 92. b. much more than did S. basil of the persecution in his tyme. He only complained that the Church doors were shut up, that th'altars lacked that spiritual worship, that should have been done upon them, that there were no assembles of Christian men, that learned men bore no sway, that there was no wholesome doctrine taught, that the feasts and holy days were not kept, that the prayers in the night were ceased. To that holy It is written to the bishops of France and Italy: which M. Dorman A compitison between the complaiure which S. basil made of his time, and that which we may make of ours. dissembled, for that the bishops of France are placed before the Italian bishops: giving a shrewd suspicion of no supremacy at Rome in those days. But he expressed before, to whom S. Basils' other epistle was written, the Italiam bishops being first named. father it seemed a great outrage, that the churches were shut up: what would he (think ye) then say were he alive in these days, when of our Churches he should see, some made the dwelling houses of private men, other some turned into barns, or stables, other clean overthrown, and made even with the ground, and those that remain whole [so much worse then if they had been altogether shut up] left open for heretics to pollute, with schismatical service & devilish doctrine? It grieved S. basil that th'altars should lack the spiritual service, which was not neither for any mislike that men had therein, but because in that grievous persecution of the Christians, they could not be found that durst do it. And could he have taken it well to have seen them broken, defaced, and quite overthrow when: yea (which is a crime so horrible, that to write it I tremble) in those places in which the altars stood, whereon was want in that spiritual sacrifice to be offered up, the most precious body, and blood of Christ: Oxen and beasts more unclean, to be fed? He lamented that learned men were not esteemed, that they were not provided of livings: and would he not much more lament, to see them deprived of those which they had, and Shoemakers, Wevers, Tinkers, Cowherdes, Broome men, Russians for felonies burned in the hands to be put in their places? Then was no wholesome doctrine taught, now is there nothyngelles taught but poisoned and unwholesome. Then were there no holy days kept, nor hymns used in the night. Now are they accounted to be superstition. Nowell. M. Dorman would induce the reader to think, that Necesse est aut adorare imaginem. etc. Et mox vnigenit' blasphematur, Spiritus sanct' ignomi●ia afficitur, etc. Which words also do declare the lewdness of M. Dormans' translation of Basiles former place, as though the bishop, & not Christ, had been blasphemed. As is before declared. we are like to the Arrians in wicked opinions, and in persecution of the true church of Christ: but who so will read that. 70. epistle of basil, shall find it otherwise. We neither worship ourselves, nor enforce any other to worship the Image that Basil treateth of in that 70 epistle: we are no Idolaters, nor teach false doctrine: we have not many gods, less, and greater: we abate nothing (as did the Arrians) but most to our power set forth the glory and deity of Christ. Let the Papists see that these points touch not themselves rather. We do not sequester the holy ghost from the glorious Trinity, as did those Arrians in saint Basils' time: whose mischief, and their own misery, he in this epistle doth deplore and bewail. Wherefore his sayings in that Epistle apperte●ne nothing to us, who are nothing guilty of those crimes and heresies: but they are brought in by dreaming M. Dorman without any cause, and beside all purpose, saving only that in reading Hosius * Lib. 2. adversus Brentium. Flo. 92. b. he found this place alleged, & thought good to follow him therein, and to translate it into his book. But now touching our very case: why did not these bishops of the east writ their humble petition, for help in their miseries, severally to the bishop of Rome, as head of all the church: but do write to all the bishops of France and Italy indifferently, without any mention of the bishop of Rome at all? So far of is it, that they made any special mention of him, as the chief or head over all the church: yea placing also the bishops of France, before the Italian bishops, The inscription of Basil his. 70 epistle. Pie●tisfimis revera, ac charistimis fratr●bus, & in ministerio consortibus unanimis, ꝑ Gallian & Italiam episcopis, Basilius Caesariae Cappadociae episcopus. (though M. Dorman do craftily dissemble the same) and calling them altogether brethren, and fellows in the ministery, which they would never have done, had they had this opinion of his supremacy, that master Dorman, and other Papists do now defend and maintain. But in the said. 70. epistle the said East Bishops, which do not once speak of the Pope, do pray the French and Italian bishops, to make humble suit to the Emperor, that he by his authority would repress their enemies the Arrians, and relieve their miseries: which maketh rather for the Emperor his supremacy in the church, then for the bishops of Rome. Now where M. Dorman speaketh of persecution, as he did a little before of our most cruel practice, I refer it to the judgement of all the world, whether our adversaries or we be more cruel persecutors: and whether have suffered more persecution, they, or we: and whether they or we do come more near to that example of persecution, by S. basil in this. 70. epistle described, I pray thee good reader judge indifferently. First S. basil showeth that the persecution was most a Basil. episto. 70. Persecutio, & persecutionun horrendissima apprehendit nos, & afflictiones quas impossibile est auribus suscipere, propterea ꝙ nullus sermo reperiatur qui declaret. etc. horrible, cruel, and bloody, such as was impossible to be expressed with words: and that b Maleficus quidem nullus. etc. thieves, murderers, and other offenders were more reasonably, and mercifully dealt with, then godly men were in that persecution: that they were apprehended c Quidam neque noverunt accusatores etc. sed in tempesta nocte violenter rapti in exilium fugati sunt. etc. in the night, and neither knowing their accusers, nor convicted of any crime, were banished, or put to death. And that there was continual d(b) Gemitus fiunt populorum etc. mourning, weeping, and sighing every where: that because the e Quia Christianorum nomen persequentibus incumbit. etc. persecutors had the name of Christians, they would not suffer such as they put to cruel death, to have the names of martyrs, and that * Father Latimer, Reverend Crammer, god●● learned Rid●●y, burned in ●●●●diche. neither f Non canicies apud judices iniquitatis venerabilis est. etc. age, and a hoar white head, neither godliness, and a life virtuously led had any reverence with the persecutors. He showeth that the persecutors were rich & wealthy, but they g No● ob tenu●ate contempti ●ertatem di●●endi non ha●●mus. etc. who were persecuted were poor men, and for their poverty contemned, not having liberty to speak. He calleth this horrible persecution h ●● Flagellorū●●mmae tradi. ●●d Timoth. fire by a figure, but the persecution that we suffer is by fire in deed, by the which our adversaries try us, and sift us into ashes: so that saint Paul's prophecy of many, who in the last days should be tried by fire, is in deed, and without figure accomplished in us. Consider I pray you, good readers, these circumstances of most extreme cruelty in those persecutors, whom S. basil speaketh of, and judge whether we, or our adversaries do the like: and withal consider how reasonably M. Dorman resembleth us to the said persecutors, and themselves to them that were so persecuted. Now where he goeth about to burden us with envy of Churches, either pulled down, or altered to other use, and of their altars destroyed (much like as the rebels did burden Henry the eight, in the. 28. year of his reign) we make this answer: Truth it is, that the foundations of Abbeys and chantries, Pro redemptione animarum fundatorum The true causes of the ruin of Abbeys. suorum & progenitorum ipsorum. etc. For the redemption of the souls of their foundours, and their progenitors souls. etc. (as in the said foundations appeareth more at large) were so unsure and weak, or rather wicked, that they could no longer bear such huge superstructions and buildings, as were laid upon them. For the Idolatry, superstition, hypocrisic, and wickedness of the Monks, Nuns, and Priests themselves were grown so great, and so heavy now, that no foundations, though sure and good, were able any longer to bear and abide them. Let the horrible history of their dark, dreadful, and most devilish doings, notified to king Henry the eight, and after to the Parliament house, by the report of the visitors, returning from their visitation of abbeys, and the Monks & Nuns themselves, in their own confessions subscribed with their own hands, be a proof thereof: which being registered in a black book, might more justly be called doumes day, than any record this day remaining in England, revealing such matter, as they had thought should have remained hid unto the great day of revelation of all secrets, if ever they looked for it. Now truly the monstrous Monachorum monstra monasteria everterunt. lives of Monks, Friars, and Nuns have destroyed their Monasteries and Churches, and not we. Concerning their foundations so contrary to the merits of Christ our saviour, that is come to pass of them, that our saviour himself foreshowed. Omnis plantatatio. Math. 15. b. 13. etc. Every plantation not planted by my heavenvly father, shallbe plucked up by the roots. Touching their impiety towards God, and wickedness of life: that is fulfilled, that was foreshowed by the Prophets, isaiah, and jeremy upon Babylon and Jerusalem: Esaie. 14. d. 19 &. 34. d. 13. Hier. 9 d. 11. & 10 d 21. &. 50. ●. 40. &. 51. d. 37. and consequently, upon all wicked cities and places, where God's law shall likewise be transgressed: where like Idolatry, like fornication, bodily and ghostly shallbe committed: where shallbe found like foolishness, ignorance, and blindness of the Pastors, heads and rulers, that is to say: that their busldynges shallbe made heaps of stones: that brambles & briars shall grow, where their pleasant lodgings were: that Oules, night scritches, and Dragons shall make their nests, and howl and seritche, where the voice of banqueting and joy was wont to be heard: and that their houses shall never be builded again. And that when men shall pass by, and say, why hath the Lord thus done to this great City, to these goodly abbeys, Nunneries, and Fratries? Answer shallbe made, for that they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord their God, and have worshipped strange Gods, and have served them. These, M. Dorman, be the true causes of such horrible destructions and desolations, as have in our time come upon Monasteries, and other houses & churches. Well it may be, that the Gospel of Christ (which M. Dorman calleth heresy) was occasion of their ruin, * isaiah. ●. c. 14. Luc. 2. ●. 34. Roma. 9 g. 32. 33. 1. Pet. 2. b. 6. 7. as Christ is the ruin of all infidels, or that the covetousness of men, seeking their own gain, may be judged of many, the cause thereof. But the very true causes in deed, of this their subversion, were their wicked foundations laid by their first founders, and the superstructions of Idolatry, superstition, hypocrisy, and abominable life, which they, falsely named religious men and Priests, heaped so hugely upon the said foundations. Had their foundations been good and sure, had their works been honest and godly, they should by the light of the Gospel have gotten praise, and honour: and their works had not to their shame been discovered by the light, and by the 1. Cor. 3. c. 13. heat of the triing fire, utterly consumed. But being as they were, they loved darkness, they hated and fled loan. 3 c. 19 20 the light, least their works should be seen: and because they could no longer hide so huge wickedness in so clear light, which discovereth even small blemishes: it came to pass that God by his officers, stirred thereto through their counterfeit holiness, & so double wickedness, revealed by the said light, executing his justice by the fire of his dreadful and terrible indignation, consumed all together: so that the houses were destroyed, and they dispersed. Touching the name of altars, which M. Dorman so gladly catcheth hold of here in saint Basil (as he did before in S. Cyprian) where we call it the lords table, we have for us good Lib. 3. epist. 9 authority. First that Christ instituted the Sacrament at a table, and not at an altar, is most manifest: except M. Dorman would have us think, that men had altars in steed of tables, in their private houses in those days: but our saviour expressly saying, that the hands of him, who should betray him, were upon the table, Luc. 22. c. 21. taketh away all doubting. And S. Paul also 1. Cor. 10. c. 21. calleth it Mensam dominicam, the Lord his table. Sure I am that M. Dorman and all the Papists with him can not say so much out of the scriptures of the new Testament, for their altars, as I have alleged for the lords table: they may therefore go and join themselves to the jews, as in multitude of jewish ceremonies, so in altars also: as it seemeth in deed, they would both become themselves, and make us too jews, rather than christians. If S. basil, and some other old writers call it an altar, that is no proper, but a figurative name, for that as in the old law their brent offerings and sacrifices were offered upon the altar, so are our sacrifices of prayer, and thanks giving &c. offered up to God at the lords table, as it were at an altar. But such kind of figurative speech can be no just cause to set up altars, rather than tables: unless they think that their crosses also should be turned into altars, for that like phrase is used of them, where it is said, Christ offered by himself upon the altar of the cross. Now th'old doctors do call it the lords table, Chrys. Hom. 18. in. 2. Cor. Augus. Tract. 26. in loan. & multi multis locis. usually, truly, without figure, and agreeably to the scriptures. Concerning the spiritual worship or service of God, or sacrifice, if you will (seeing it is also mentioned in S. basil) due to be done at the lords table, which, as afore is noted, he calleth an altar, it is not lacking in our Churches at the lords table: that is to say, true repentance of heart, which is, as the Prophet calleth it, a service and a sacrifice pleasant Psal. 51. b. 19 unto God, the offering up of our prayers and praises unto God: which service and sacrifice of praise, as the Psalm witnesseth, doth honour God: and specially, Psal. 50. c. 14. d. 23. that sacrifice of thanks giving, most peculiar to this altar or lords table, and to that holy Sacrament, having thereof a peculiar name, being called with the Greeks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to say, thanks giving, for the grateful remembrance of that one Sacrifice offered by our saviour once for all: which sacrifice of thanks Hebre. 10. giving we joinctly with other present do offer up to Christ our saviour in the memorial by him left, and by faith in our hearts do communicate his precious body and blood, a sacrifice by himself offered for us. Neither are our oblations, or offerings to the poor lacking, when we come to this altar, which S. Paul philipp. 4. d. 18 also calleth a sacrifice acceptable, & pleasant to God: whereas you Papists have no such thing, but only the bare word Offertorium, without any offering for the poor: saving that you did not forget to receive the offerings for yourselves at the usual offering days, and when any Dirige, or Months mind did fall. Thus you see, master Dorman, that we have even that same spiritual worship, service, and sacrifice too (if you so will) due to be done at this altar, that is to wit, the lords Table, which S. Bafill speaketh of here: and any other altar or service he meaneth not, nor knew none. And were you not altogether to gross, S. Basil so ointe speaking of spiritual worshipping, and spiritual service, might somewhat reform your carnal and sensual understanding. You see we do not stick to Spiritualis cultus, spirituales gratiae. grant you not only a spiritual worship and service, but a sacrifice too, which yet hath no need of your altars, framed to yourselves upon this false fantasy, that the body and blood of Christ are there offered by the Priests for the quick and dead, with the abuse of that distinction of the bloody, and unbloody offering of Christ's body, applied to the same: which is altogether a false fable, and a vain dream most meet for M. Dorman. The scriptures do thus teach us, that Christ our saviour once for all offered up his body and Hebr. 10. c. 10. n. 14. blood upon the altar of the cross, the one and only sacrifice Phil. 5. a. 2. Hebr. 10. c. 10. 12. 14. of sweet savour, to his father: by the which one oblation of the body of Christ, a sacrifice for our sins, once for ever offered, and no more to be offered by any man, we be sanctified and made perfit. Wherefore the popish Priests which do repeat often the sacrifice of Christ's death, as they do teach, thereby, as much as in them lieth, do take away the efficacy and virtue of the Sacrifice of Christ's death, making it like to the sacrifices of the old law: the imperfection of which sacrifices, S. Paul doth prove by the often repetition of the same. For the continuance whereof their priests also needed succession: but Christ is a Priest for ever, without succession, and his sacrifice perpetual, without repetition; as the Apostle plainly teacheth. Our Hebr. 10. c. ●. service and sacrifice now, is the often and thankful remembrance of that only sacrifice, in the receiving of the holy Sacrament at the lords table, according to his own institution: Hoc facite in memoriam mei: do this in remembrance of me: with spiritual feeding by faith also upon that his most precious body and blood, so by him for us offered. Touching the pulling 4. Reg. 18. c. 22 4. Reg. 23. 2. Para. 14. a. 3. 2. Para. 17. b. 6. 2. Para. 31. a. 1. 2. Para. 34. a. 4 down of your altars, I answer: they are justly destroyed, as were those wicked altars by Asa, josaphat, Ezechias, josias godly kings of juda destroyed. For as abominable Idolatry was committed on, and before your altars, as ever was upon and before those. If you require proofs hereof, you shall have them in their due places of the Mass, and of Idolatry to Images. In the mean season, if you think it enough, only to call us heretics, and to affirm that we pollute such Churches, as yet remain, with schismatical service, and devilish doctrine: and that we do account hymns in the night, and holy days to be superstition: If you M. Dorman, think it enough only to say thus, to prove nothing, to rail much: seeing all is not Gospel, that Daws or Syrus do speak in playing their parts, let it serve me at this present also, to say the contrary: that we teach no doctrine, but such, as is agreeable to God his word, and therefore be no heretics: that we have, and keep our Sabbath days, and holy days too, aswell as ever did the Papists: and do sing as good and godly hymns in the day, as ever did they your Nightyngal●es, in the dark, and better too. And when we have both thus said, to leaus the judgement of both our sayings to the discreet reader for this time, rather than continually, at every occasion by you catched, to make a confusion of divers matters, which it seemeth, you have purposely sought. And thus far to that, which M. Dorman hath alleged out of S. basil, as against us. And I do much marvel that he did not rehearse these words of saint basil in the same place also. unum est crimen. etc. to say: There is one fault which is now vehemently condemned and punished: to wit, the diligent observation of the traditions of the fathers. These are saint basiles words in effect, which omitted by master Dorman, do signify that either he red not the place himself, or was more than half a sleep when he did read it, else would he never have let it so escape him. But we answer to such as have alleged it. The traditions of such fathers as were S. basiles fathers, and lived in the primitive Church, we esteem as we ought to do. The traditions of our later stepfathers, unborn long after S. basiles death, who be the children of that stepdame the Popish synagogue, we contemn and condemn, for that they have preferred their said traditions, before the law of God, and the institution of our saviour Christ. And thus much for our agreement with S. basil. Now when M. Dorman beside S. basil, & besides the book too, as they say, affirmeth, that learned men are deprived of their livings, & Shoemakers, weavers, Tinkers, Ruffians, Felons, etc. put in their places, it is but a flourish of his Rhetoric: he is not able to name any one such in a learned Papists room, or any of such dishonesty, as ruffians, or felons in our ministery: though it be not unknown, that there hath been great plenty of popish priests, both felons, and traitors too. But if M. Dorman will make a reasonable comparison, he must compare the learned of our side, with the learned of their sort: or their unlearned sir Ihons', with our poor ministers. And I doubt not, though our Bishops be not so well learned in Canon Law, in matters of contention about worldly controversies, in bearing of temporal office, and authority, and in comely courtly behaviour, and worldly pomp, as are their Bishops: yet in all kinds of learning, manners and qualities, by S. Paul in the 1. Timo. 3. 2. Tit. 1. c. 7. office of a Bishop required, there shall be found as many learned bishops, and as able, and willing to do the duties of good and godly bishops [per se, non per alium] amongst us even at this day, as ever were amongst the Papists, or in England, sith the first Bishop was created in it. And I trust likewise, that our Clergy, next under our bishops, shall not be found any whit inferior in learning, nor honesty of life, to theirs. Therefore M. Dorman, when it pleased you to say, that Cowheardes, and Broume men, are placed in learned men's rooms, you do but fable, as you are wont to do. And that we lack a great many of learned men to furnish all ecclesiastical offices, we may thank you Papists, who have moune crnellie consumed so many of them to ashes, and thereby driven us to supply small cures with some honest artificers, exercised in the scriptures: whom, neither saint Peter the Fisher, nor saint Paul the Tent maker (who joan. 21. a. 3. Act. 18. a. 3. both used their arts after their calling to the Apostleship) would so despise, as do you M. Dorman. And I do much marvel of your judgement, who do place Peter the Fisher in the highest room above all Bishops, and can not suffer other honest artificers, sufficiently exercised in the Scriptures, to have any place at all in the inferior ministery. Which honest poor men, if they have succeeded in the places, not of learned men, as you do untruely say, but in the steed of your Popish sir Ihons' lack latin, & all good learning, and honesty too: who took the change of our Church Service, from Latin into English so grievously, for none other cause, but for that they could read no English, a great many of them, when they were put to it (such great clerks they were) and were otherwise, by trial found, in all qualities far more meet to be Tinkers, Cobblers, Cowheardes, yea Swineheardes, and Bearewardes too, then ministers of Christ's Church: no good and godly man can therefore justly be offended with such change, though M. Dorman storm never so much thereat. Dorman. Fol. 3. Now as we felt none of all these miseries besides a thousand more, so long as we kept ourselves within the unity of one head: so is every man able to bear me witness, that as soon as the devil the author of all heresies had once obtained, and brought about the banishment in our country of that one bishop, with the which [as you have heard out of S. Cyprian before] he useth always to begin, all these rushed in upon us, as the door that should have kept them out, being set wide open. Nowell. M. Dorman faith, you have heard out of saint Cyprian, that with the banishing of that one bishop, (meaning the bishop of Rome) the devil beginneth, & bringeth in all miseries afterward: but you have seen it plainly declared, that in all those places, alleged by M. Dorman out of S. Cyprian, there is not one word written or meant of the bishop of Rome, but of Rogatian, and of S. Cyprian himself, being both Bishops of Africa. And where he saith, that all miseries have rushed in upon us, with the banishing of that one Bishop, and head, and only saith so, I do say the contrary is most true: and will also in place of this treaty convenient, not only say, but prove, that where the Pope hath had the greatest authority, there hath he brought in with him, as well all miseries, mischiefs, and destructions upon the common wealth: as also all superstitions, hypocristes, errors, and Idolatries into the Church. And for this present time, it shall be sufficient to admonish the reader, that in all respects we be now in far better case without the Pope, in more quietness, peace, security, plenty of things, etc. then we were of late under the Pope: and that therefore, M. Dorman doth most evidently and falsely fable, when he saith, that a thousand and more miseries have rushed into this realm, with the refusal of that one bishop and head. Dorman. Fol. 3. And as this is confessed by the most ancient fathers that have written sense Christ's time, that by this means we first revolt from the church, by contemning, The way to return to the unity of the church. and not acknowledging the head: so must our return thither again be by the contrary, that is by reverencing him, by acknowledging him, by humble submission of ourself to him. Nowell. It is none otherwise confessed by other most ancient fathers, than you have already heard it confessed by S. Cyprian, and basil, whom he hath without all shame alleged for that purpose, whereas they speak not one word of that matter, neither acknowledge any such head. And as they remained in the Church of Christ, never acknowledging the bishop of Rome, as head of the Church: so do we, likewise re●ectyng his falsely usurped supremacy, nothing doubt, but we remain in the Church of Christ, whose sworn enemy we do know that false usurper to be, and therefore none of Christ's Church: so far of is it, that he can be the head of the same. Dorman. fol. 3. So did those that after their fall with Novatus, S. Cyprian received into the Church again, upon their submission testified in these words. Nos-Cornelium Episcopum Epistola ad Cornelium papam. lib. ●. sanctissimum Catholicae Ecclesiae, erectum à Deo omnipotent, & Christo D. nostro scimus. Nos errorem nostrum confitemur. Circumuenti sumus perfidiae loquacitate factiosa amentes: videbamur quasi quandam communicationem cum homine schismatico habuisse: Syncera tamen mens nostra in ecclesia semper fuit. Nec ignoramus unum Deumesse, & unum Christum esse dominum, quem confessi sumus, unum Spiritum S. unum Episcopum in Ecclesia catholica esse debere. We [say they] acknowledge Cornelius This Cornelius was Bishop of Rome. to be erected by God almighty, and Christ our Lord, to be the holy bishop of the catholic church. We confess our error: we have been circumvented ronning mad by the factious babbling of treachery: we seemed to have communicated as it were, with that schismatical man Novatus: yet was our sincere One God, One Christ One holy ghost. One bishop mind always in the Church. Nor we are not ignorant, that there is one only God, and one Christ our lord, and that in the catholic church there must be one holy ghost, and one bishop. Nowell. Maximus, Vrbanus, and Sidonius (whom M. Dorman Nicephorus lib. 6. cap. 3. meaneth) neither revolted from the Church, by contemning, and not acknowledging this head, he speaketh of: nor returned to the Church again, by acknowledging of any such head. For in those days Cornelius, bishop of Rome, was not acknowledged to be head of the Church, by any man living: such ambition, and false usurpation of the bishop of Rome, to be head of the Church, being unknown to Cornelius, than bishop of Rome, and to all other bishops of Christendom also. But to make the truth in deed known to the reader how these men revolted from the Church, and how they returned, I shall out of saint Cyprian, and histories Ecclesiastical, declare Eusebi. lib. 6. cap. 43. the verity of the matter. After the death of Fab●anus bishop of Rome, Cornelius was lawfully chosen by Nicephorus lib. 6. cap. 3. Cyprianus li. 3. episto. 13. ad Stephanum li. 4. epist. 2. Ad Antonianum. the clergy and people, to be his successor there. Novatus, who was of that opinion, that such as for fear of torments and death, had renounced the Christian saith, though they repented therefore, were not to be received into the Church again, made a great stir against Cornelius, who with saint Cyprian, and all catholic bishops, held the contrary: that is to say, that the Penitentes ought to be received after due discipline executed upon them. But the faction of Novatus waxing greater, Novatus, or (as saint Cyprian saith) Novatianus, would have intruded himself, into the Bishopric of Rome, and took himself, and was taken of his faction, to be lawful successor of Fabian, and the true bishop of Rome: and Cornelius to be an usurper, as one that did communicate with such as had renounced their faith. Whereupon grew this question and controversy, which of them two● was a catholic bishop, holding the truth, and truly and lawfully chosen by God: and which was the intruder, and not of the Catholic church, but an heretic. And amongst others, Maximus, Vrbanus, and Eusebi. & Niceph. ut supra. Sidonius, priests of Rome, joined themselves to Novatus, against Cornelius, holding Novatus opinion, and taking him for their Bishop. And thus they revolted by falling to heresy, and refusing Cornelius their bishop, and by joining themselves to Novatus an usurper and heretic, and not by denying Cornelius, as bishop of Rome, to be the head of the church▪ as M. Dorman fableth. But afterward Maximus and his fellows repenting their deed, did forsake Novatus Cyprianus li. 3. epist. 11. as an heretic and usurper, and returned to Cornelius again, as their true Bishop, to join in faith and communion with him, as with a catholic bishop, or a Bishop of the catholic Church, which is all one. And they do acknowledge that he was erected by God into that Bishopric of Rome: and so consequently, Novatus to be a false usurper and heretic, and so no bishop of the Catholic church. Wherefore it is evident, that when M. Dorman saith, that those men returned again to the Church, by this way, that is to say, by acknowledging Cornelius to be the head of the universal church, he saith most untruly. And hath corrupted, and translated this place falsely, removing the word sanctissimae from his place, and in steed of, Cornelium episcopum sanctissimae catholicae ecclesiae, Cornelius a bishop of the most holy catholic Church, as saint Cyprian doth write, he hath Cornelium sanctissimum episcopum ecclesię catholicę, Cornelius the most holy Bishop of the Catholic Church, to make a better show for his purpose: as though Maximus, Vrbanus, & Sidonius, with others, had acknowledged Cornelius to be erected by God almighty, to be the most holy Bishop of the Catholic and universal Church, and so to make for his supremacy over the whole Church. Which is neither written here, nor else where, neither ever was meant by Maximus, or his fellows, nor by saint Cyprian himself. But this is the true sense of those words. Nos Cornelium Episcopum sanctissimae Catholicae ecclesiae, erectum à deo omnipotent, & Christo Domino nostro scimus. etc. We acknowledge Cornelius to be a Bishop of the most holy Catholic church, erected by God almighty, and Christ our Lord. etc. as if they had said more at large, where we before took Cornelius to be an unlawful usurper, and to communicate with those that had renounced their faith, and therefore to be no member of the most holy Catholic church: now we acknowledge him to be a Catholic Bishop, by God erected, and that we were deceived before in joining with Novatus against him. And that this is the true sense of that place, saint Cyprian himself in his epistle to Stephanus showeth, writing thus of that same matter: Non potest à quoquam nostrum illi communicari, qui episcopo Cornelio in Catholica Lib. 3. epist. 13. ecclesia dei judicio, & cleri, ac plebis suffragio ordinato, profanum altare erigere, & adulteram Cathedram collocare, & sacrilega contra verum sacerdotem sacrificia offerre tentaverit. That is: None of us can communicate with him, who hath attempted to erect a profane altar, and an untrue chair, against bishop Cornelius, ordained in the catholic church by God's judgement, and by the election of the Clergy and people: and hath attempted to offer sacrilegious or wicked sacrifice against the true Priest. Thus far saint Cyprian. Whereby you may see, that he calleth not Cornelius here the bishop of the Catholic church, but Bishop Cornelius ordained in the Catholic church by God his judgement, and the election of the Clergy and people. And this is all one in sense and meaning with the other. For Episcopus Catholicę ecclesiae, and Episcopus in catholica ecclesia, be as much to say, as Catholicus Episcopus, a catholic bishop, and not the Bishop of the Catholic or universal Church, as M. Dorman would have it. For this being in controversy, whether Cornelius or Novatus was the true and Catholic Bishop, or Priest, and which was the usurper and heretic: here do Maximus, and Vrbanus with others confess, that Cornelius was the Catholic bishop. Wherefore M. Dorman in translating the said place so, that it may seem to make for the Pope's supremacy, and by the way removing this word Sanctissimae from the Catholic church, to attribute it to Cornelius (by like to make a show that the title of Sanctissimus was of old appertsining to the bishop of Rome) doth herein like himself. Now, concerning that which followeth in their confession: We be not ignorant, that there is one S. Cyprian his phrase of one Bishop of, or in the church, orina church. God, one Christ our Lord, one holy Ghost, and that there must be one bishop in the Catholic church. or more truly, in this place, in a Catholic Church. This M. Dorman did not doubt, but that the simple sort would take it to be a most plain proof, not of Cornelius supremacy only, but ex abundante, that he alone was that one Bishop, which ought to be only in the whole Catholic Church: for so it seemeth by his marginal note, of one God, one Bishop etc. he meaneth. But I trust, that few will allow M. Dorman, even of those that be of his own part, if he would so wrest saint Cyprian, that as there is one only God, and none but he: so there should be but one only Bishop, and no more but he. Whereas nothing less was meant by them, that made this confession, nor by saint Cyprian, who maketh report thereof. For first, Maximus and his fellows, which had before joined themselves to Novatus, who challenged to be a true catholic bishop, and bishop of Rome also, do now acknowledge Cornelius to be the true bishop: and because there can be no more bishops in any one catholic church but one, therefore now affirming Cornelius to be that one Bishop, they do reject Novatus as no bishop, but an usurper: and thereby acknowledge, that there ought to be but one bishop in that catholic church. And so nothing less is meant here, by one bishop, than one head bishop over all other bishops: much less is meant one bishop alone of all the Church, as there is one only God over all: as it may seem that M. Dorman would gather. For the declaration whereof, it is to be noted, that when saint Cyprian speaketh of one bishop of the catholic church, he meaneth no one special Bishop over all, but indifferently all, and every catholic bishop throughout the universal church: for that they have every of them the full possession of one only bishopric. Which as it is but one throughout all the world, so hath every bishop the same, wholly, and fully. So that when saint Cyprian speaketh of one Bishop only to rule the Church, he meaneth the Bishop of that Diocese, which he then entreateth of, who so ever, and of what country so ever he be: as here in this epistle, he meaneth Cornelius: and in his epistle to Pupianus, by the Lib. 1. epist. 5. said one bishop, appointed by God to rule the church, he meaneth himself being bishop of Carthage. For in both places he hath the same words, of one bishop Lib. 4. epi 9 appointed to rule the Church, by the contempt of the which Bishop, heresies do spring, or arise. This remaineth yet more fully to be declared, as well by Cornelius, as by saint Cyprian himself in other places. First Cornelius writing to Fabius' Bishop of Antioch (as Eusebius testifieth) hath these words Histor. ecclesiasticae libr. 6. cap. 43. concerning this very matter. Vindex ille evangelii (de Novato loquitur) ignoravit unum esse debere episcopum in catholica ecclesia, in qua nescit (quomodo enim sciret?) presbyteros esse. 46. diaconos 7. hypodiaconos 7. acoluthos. 42. etc. that is to say: this defender of the Gospel (he speaketh of Novatus) was ignorant that there ought to be one Bishop in a Catholic church, In catholica ecclesia. in the which he knoweth not (for how should he know) that there be. 46. Priests. 7. Deacons, 7. subdeacons, 42. inferior ecclesiastical ministers, or servitors. etc. Thus far Cornelius. By which words it is evident that the Catholic church, whereof Cornelius and Cyprian do speak, and wherein there must be but one bishop, is not the universal church throughout the world, as M. Dorman would have it (unless he think that 46. Priests, and 7. Deacons may suffice the universal Church for ministers, as well as one only bishop is sufficient for the head of the whole Church, for the one is as reasonable as the other) but the catholic church that Cornelius speaketh of here, is the particular church of Rome: in the which as one bishop, so also 7. Deacons might suffice. Which particular church is by Cornelius here, & by S. Cyprian, and other ancient doctors of the church in their writings, called Catholic, because it professed & taught the catholic faith, and to notify it from schismatical or heretical churches. And any other particular church teaching the catholic faith, may in like manner be called a catholic church, or the catholic church of such a city, or country. Now concerning S. Cyprian, he declareth in many places, that every Bishop in his own diocese hath the full possession of the bishopric, which is one throughout all the world, & therefore is the only bishop and head of that his own Catholic church: as namely in his epistle to Antonianus, where he hath these words. una est Ecclesia, à Christo per totum mundum in multa membra divisa: item episcopatus unus, episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus. etc. That is to say: there is one church, from Christ throughout the whole world divided: likewise one bishopric, spread abroad in the agreeable multitude of many Bishops. But S. Cyprian declareth his mind most plainly of this one bishopric, wholly and equally possessed of all and every bishop, in his book De simplicitate praelatorum, not far from the beginning, writing thus. unum corpus, & unus spiritus, Cyprianus De simplicitate praelatorum. una spes vocationis vestrę, unus dominus, una fides, unum Baptisma, unus deus. Quam unitatem firmiter tenere, & vindicare debemus, maximè episcopi, qui in ecclesia praesidemus, ut episcopatum quoque ipsum, unum atque indivisum probemus. Nemo fraternitatem mendacio fallat, nemo fidei veritatem perfida preuaricatione corrumpat. Episcopatus unus est, cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur. Ecclesia una est, quae in multitudinem latiùs incremento foecunditatis extenditur: quomodo solis multi radij, sed lumen unum: & rami arboris multi, sed robur unum, tenaci radice fundatum etc. Which is to say: There is one body, and one spirit, one hope of your vocation, one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God. The which unity we must firmly hold and maintain: specially we Bishops, which do govern in the Church, that we may prove the bishopric itself also to be one, and undivided. Let no man by lying deceive the brotherhodde: let no man corrupt the verity of faith by false prevarication. There is one Bishopric, part whereof every man hath wholly, or In solidum. more plainly, there is one Bishopric, which every bishop hath wholly for his part. There is one church, which is spread abroad by increase of fruictefulnesse into a multitude: as there be many beams of the sun, but one light: many branches of the tree, but one body of it, stayed upon a sure root. etc. Thus far saint Cyprian, with much more process to prove the unity of the church, and the unity of one bishopric, which every Bishop wholly hath for his part: and so consequently, all Bishops to be equal. Wherefore master Dorman hath in vain noted in the margin of his book in this place, One God, one Christ, one holy Ghost, one Bishop: as though the Bishop of Rome were that one Bishop, and none but he: as there is one only God, and none but he. Where as that place of saint Cyprian (as by conference with this place appeareth) proveth, that though there be one bishopric throughout all the world, yet are there many bishops, and that every one, in his own Diocese, hath the whole possession of that one Bishopric: and that therefore there is an equality of all Bishops, and so consequently, no superiority of any one over all, as M. Dorman would have it. For if every Bishop have in solidum, that is to say, fully, and wholly that one Bishopric, or bishoplie function and office, as S. Cyprian saith, no one can have more, than the whole, and therefore, no one can be above all other. Which may appear more plainly, by the comparisons of one faith, and one Baptism, which saint Cyprian in the same place useth. For as there is but one faith, though there be many faithful persons: one Baptism, though many baptized: so there is by saint Cyprian his judgement but one Bishopric, yet be there many Bishops: which one Bishopric is equally, and wholly divided amongst all the said Bishops: as faith and Baptism are equally, and wholly divided amongst the faithful baptized: and yet remaineth still but one Bishopric, as there doth but one faith, and one Baptism: for that every bishop hath that one bishopric wholly: as every true faithful hath the one christian faith wholly: and In solidum. every one, that is duly baptized, hath that one Baptism wholly. And consequently it followeth, that as no one man hath any superiority in Baptism, or faith, above other truly faithful, and baptized: so hath no one bishop any superiority over other bishops, for that every bishop hath that one bishopric wholly, and therefore none hath it more than other, but be all equal In solidum. in office and authority. This is S. Cyprian his mind of one Bishopric, which every bishop hath wholly, and equally, and is therefore in his own Diocese the one only bishop in the catholic Church to govern the same. Whereby any man, but of mean understanding, may well perceive, that this saying of one bishop, used by saint Cyprian, maketh nothing for the bishop of Rome his supremacy, but directly against it: making all other bishops equal with him: as they, which have in solidum, wholly, that one Bishopric, as well as he. And therefore when saint Cyprian nameth one bishop in the catholic church, or of a catholic church, he meaneth the bishop of that special diocese which he entreateth of, of what country so ever it be, as here he meaneth Cornelius: and by the like words in other places, he meaneth other bishops, and of other dioceses. Which is most evident by the like words, of one Bishop who governeth the church, used by the same saint Cyprian, in this epistle to Pupianus. His words be these: Episcopus, qui unus e●●, & ecclesiae praeest, contemnitur. etc. The Bishop which Libr. 4. epi. 9 is one, and governeth the Church, is contemned and set at nought. etc. Where it is most evident, that by that one Bishop, who governeth the Church, and is contemned, he meaneth himself, being bishop of Carthage, and by the said Pupian despised, as is at large already declared. Which place yet M. Dorman a little before alleged for the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome as leudelie, as he doth this place here. To conclude, Maximus, and his fellows had a controversy with Cornelius, altogether divers from our controversies with the Popes of Rome: and therefore, their example appertaineth nothing to this case of the Pope's supremacy, then neither moved, nor known. And it is no marvel, if that Maximus, Vrbanus, and Sidonius being priests of Rome, & there having with Novatus, Eusebi. lib. 6. cap. 43. being himself Priest of Rome also, made so great stir and business against Cornelius, reconciled themselves to Cornelius the Roman bishop, being their own bishop: which appertaineth nothing at all to us, who have nothing to do with the bishop of Rome. Dorman. fol. 3. Nowell. Ex papa bo●●f●cio Extra. libr. 1. Tit: de Maiorit. & obed. cap. unam sanctam. So did Vrsatius and Valens forsaking the heresy of Arius, offer up their recantation to julius then Bishop of Rome. By this meane● [good Christian readers] returned they to the Church, by this must you return that have strayed, what so ever you be, if you will be saved. Nowell. Vrsatius, or Vrsitius, and Valens, in their recantation Socrates lib. 1. cap. 27. Nicephorus lib. 9 cap. 13. &. 27. make nothing for the Bishop of Rome his supremacy, but rather against it. They writ to him, as they use to write to any other bishop: their inscription is, Ad julium Episcopum Romanum, to julius the Roman bishop. They use these words: Bonitatis tuae literis in hanc sententiam traducti. We were brought into this mind or judgement by the letters of your goodness. Apud humanitatem tuam profitemur. We do profess unto your humanity or gentleness. And, pietas tua, your godliness: and such like, which are no words of supremacy. For that they call him once Tom. 2. Aug. episto. 183. Augustino episcoporum sum more: & mox, venerabilis papa etc. beatissimum dominum papam, the most blessed lord Pope, maketh nothing for his supremacy: unless it make for saint Augustine bishop of Hippo in Africa his supremacy also, who is not only called venerabilis papa, honourable Pope, but also the highest of all bishops. But M. Dorman himself confesseth somewhere I trow, this name Papam, pope, to be comen in that time to all bishops, and therefore unmeet to prove the supremacy of any one. But if he think the titles added, Most blessed Lord, do make the word Papam, Pope, to be singular, and for the supremacy: thereto I do answer: First, it is evident that this word dominus, Lord, or sir, is used not only to all bishops, but to all Popish sir Ihons' also, who yet have no supremacy at all. And I am content that this word, Beatissimus, most blessed, may serve M. Dorman his purpose here, so that he will admit it likewise in other places: as in this, amongst other. All the Priests and Deacons of Rome call Cyprian Bishop of Carthage, Beatissimum, Lib. 2. episto. Cypriani, epistola. 7. in fine & gloriosissimum Papam: the most blessed, and most glorious Pope. Lo Master Dorman, here is a double epitheton and title, for your single. Let the bishop of Carthage then have the supremacy with the bishop of Rome: or let the bishop of Rome go● without it, with the bishop of Carthage. But if this make for julius bishop of Rome's supremacy, that Vrsatius, and Valens offered up their recantation to him, as M. Dorman taketh it to do: let it also make for Athanasius bishop of Alexandria his supremacy, to whom in like manner they offer up their recantation also, as is recorded in the same place. The cause concerning Nicephor. lib. 9 cap. 27. Vrsatius and Valens standing thus, M. Dorman abuseth the readers to much, to give them a dor, with a matter nothing to the purpose: saying, So did Vrsatius and Valens, and so to pass over without further declaration, or as much, as once noting the place, where the matter might be found. Which M. Dormanne hath done of set purpose and knowledge, that it was nothing to the purpose, that they did, and that himself alleged. And yet hereupon, as upon good proofs and declarations, he concludeth thus. By this means returned they to the Church, by this must you return, that have strayed, if you will be saved. I took my Harp into my hand, and twang ꝙ my string a. Dorman. Fol. 3. * Ex Pighii Hierarch. lib. 5. ca 2 fo 210. Seeing now as I have declared, the going out of the Nowell. Church is by the contempt of the head thereof, and the return home again, by the acknowledging, and reverencing of the same: * Ex Hosii contra Brentium lib. 3. fol. 134. persuade yourself that it hath not been for nothing, that good men in all ages have been, and at this time are, no less busied in defence thereof, than heretics, missecreantes, and enemies to our faith, are ready with all their power to assault the same. Nowell. You have declared nothing at all, your Doctors The sum of all hitherto alleged & said by master Dorman. say nothing for you, your allegations, and examples are altogether impertinente. Rogatians deacon being an African, must reconcile himself to his own bishop an African: Pupianus ought to reconcile himself to saint Cyprian bishop of Carthage. For the first places alleged out of saint Cyprian, pertained only to them two, disobedient to their own bishops being Africanes. Saint basil speaketh of the east church, and bishops: Novatus sweareth men to stick to his heresy, and to take him, and not Cornelius for their bishop: Maximus, Vrbanus, and Sidonius Priests of Rome, reconcile themselves to Cornelius their own Roman bishop, whom they had unjustly forsaken: Vrsatius, and Valens, offer their recantation, and be reconciled to julius bishop of Rome: they do in like wise to Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria. For they took Arrius the heretics part against them both, & had greatly vexed them both, and therefore were they reconciled to both: as all christians are likewise bound to reconcile themselves, not only to Bishops, but to all other, whom they have offended or wronged. What rhyme or reason is it therefore, for M. Dorman together hereof the Bishop of Rome his supremacy, as he hath gone about in this his Introduction, which he might better have named a Seduction, as in the which, he hath proved nothing, railed much, lied more, deceived fielie souls, abused the wise, & better occupied readers. And as there is not one place, hitherto by M. Dorman alleged, appertaining to his purpose, nor any one sentence of his void of lying: so shall you in the sequel of this treaty find him no chaunngeling. Dorman. Fol. 4. The consideration whereof hath caused also me, in this enterprise of mine, to begin first with the fortifying of that whereunto our enemy▪ [as the very foundation of all true religion, the comfort and stay of the Catholics, the terror and utter undoing of all heretics] do most direct their battery. Nowell. You have done like a wise man, and used herein more discretion, than did your master D. Harding, who hath made this matter of the Pope's supremacy, but as a common matter, and as the Latins say, unam ex multis, one of many: Where in deed, as you hau● well considered, it is the chief foundation of all Popery, your Religion, the comfort and stay of all Papists, usurping falsely the name of Catholics: the terror and worldly undoing of all those, whom it pleaseth you to call heretics, hold they never so much with Christ and his Gospel, agree they never so much with his true, catholic, & ancient Apostolic church. For may you once establish the Pope's authority, not to be denied: his supremacy, not to be disobei●d: you have won all, you need no Scriptures, no interpretation of Doctors, no assemble of Counceiles: a Sexto Decret. lib. 1. tit. 2 ca licet. Roman ' pontifex iura oina in scrinio pectoris suicensetur habere. Vide Platinam in vita papae Pauli secundi. all is in the box of the Pope's bosom: (as the Popes themselves, Boniface the eight, and Paul the second with others do brag) he is all in all: he saith it, ego it must needs be believed: for Fides Petri non deficit, Peter's faith faileth not: as Pighius out of Eckius, b Hosius lib 2. contra Brentium fol. 83 a. &. 86. a. b. Hosius out of Pighius, and c D. Harding fol. ●5. b. D. Harding out of Hosius have alleged: which yet appertaineth as much to the Pope, as doth a Saddle to a Sow. Likewise, the Pope commandeth it, ergo it must be obeyed: For be is the judge, and final determiner of all matters, as M. Dorman hath * M. Dorman fol. 7. a. &. 9 b & 12. a &. 62. b often alleged for the same purpose, out of Deuteronomium. If it please the Pope to offer his feet to Emperors & Kings of the world to kiss: or if it standeth further with his pleasure to tread on their necks, as he served the Emperor Fredrick: or if he have a liking to their crowns and kingdoms, as he had to the crown of England in king John his time: or list he to depose kings and Emperors, as he hath deposed many: yet may he neither be disobeyed, nor denied in his will and lust. For as Pighius to that purpose hath alleged, Qui superbierit Pighius Hierarch. lib. 6. ca 13. fo. 323. d. nolens obedire. etc. He that waxeth proud, and will not obey the commandment of the high Priest for the time being, let him die by the decree of the judge. And peculiarly, that he may so tread upon Emperors and Kings necks, that in so doing he doth but right, appeareth by this text, alleged for that purpose by Pope Alexander the third: Super aspidem & Basiliscum ambulabis etc. That is to say: Thou shalt walk upon the Adder and Basilisk: thou shalt tread upon the Lion and Dragon. And his right to all kingdoms, & that in asking of them he doth but ask his own: and that he may make, and depose kings, and bestow kingdoms at his pleasure: and that he hath both the sword, and the right of both the heavenly Extra. joannis 22. tit. 5. cap. 1. Sifratrum. Extra. comm. lib. 1. de Maiorit. & obedientia. cap. unan: sanctam. and earthly Empire, is proved by these special texts alleged by Pope Boniface the eight and other Popes for that purpose: Ecce duo gladij hic. Behold two sword here. Et ecce, constitui tesuper gentes, & regna &c. * jeremis 1. Behold this day do I set thee over the people and kingdoms, that thou mayest root out, break of, destroy and make waste, & that thou mayest build up, and plant. And by this text alleged by Platin. in vita Gregorii. 7. Pope Gregory the vij Quicquid ligaveris aut solueris in terra etc. What soever thou dost bind or loose upon the earth, shallbe bound or loosed in heaven. Of which words the said Pope maketh this collection, that if they may bind and loose in heaven, they may much more in earth take away, and give Empires, Kingdoms, Principates, and what soever mortal men else have, and so forth, as followeth in Platine, most worthy to be read. And the same is proved also by this special text, to the like purpose alleged by Pope julius the third: Gens & regnum quod mihi non seruierit, peribit. The nation & kingdom which shall not serve me, shall perish. Which sentence also The inscription of pope julius the third his coin. for more surety, the said Pope caused to be stamped in his coin. Finally whatsoever it shall please the Pope to do, to the burte of men's bodies, or loss of their goods and possessions, yea or to the eternal damnation D●stin. 40. ca Si Papa. Extra. joann. 22 Tit. 4 cap. 2. in schol●is. of their souls, be they never so many, yea be they innumerable, yet may no mortal man blame him, no man may be so bold to say: Domine cur ita facis? Lord why do you so? Wherefore, notwithstanding saint Paul's boldness with Peter the Pope's predecessor, as he saith, we are ●ow without all remedy against the Pope, what error so ever he do teach, and what mischief so ever he do: and we must rather suffer ourselves and infinite thousands to b●e damned, then to be so bold as to allege any scriptures, though most manifestly contrary to such the Pope's sayings, and doings: Such as amongst others, are these: Principes gentium. etc. That is to say, Princes of nations bear rule over them, but it shall not be so Math. 20. d. 25. Marc. 10. f. Lucae. 22. c. amongst you, but he that will be the chief amongst you, let him be your servant: and he that will be great amongst you, let him be your minister: even as the son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister unto other. And again, Nolite vocari Rabbi etc. Vos omnes fratres estis. Be not desirous to Math. 23. b. be called Rabbi, for one is your master, to wit Christ, and ye are all brethren: be not called masters, he that is greatest amongst you, shallbe your servant: for whosoever exalteth himself, shallbe brought low, and he that humbleth himself, shallbe exalted. Et ne sitis ceu dominium exercentes in cleros. Be not as those 1. Petri. 3. who exercise dominion over the people, or, as Lords over Parishes. For so is it translated also. If we (I say) shall allege these, and such like Scriptures against such usurped tyranny and false wresting of the scriptures, we shall gain nothing thereby, but only to be accounted heretics, for not obeying the voice of the high Priest, who alone can tell the sense and meaning of the scriptures, according to this text: Legem requirent ex ore sacerdotis: they shall require the law at the mouth of the high Priest: without whose interpretation, the scripture is but the dumb and dead letter, a rule of Lead, a nose of wax, flexible what way you Pighius Hierarch. libr. 3. cap. 3. f●. 103. d list bou it. If we further do bring the old Doctors of the Church, by whose interpretations it is declared that these scriptures do serve directly against such usurped rule and dominion: as saint Augustine, alleged in the Pope's own Canon law, teaching that, Episcopatus operis, non honoris nomen est: a Bishopric ●. Quaest. 1. ca Qu● episcopatum. is a name of work, not of honour. And S. Jerome likewise alleged in their own Canons, willing bishops to know that they be Ecclesiastical ministers, Distinct. 95. cap. Esto. and not Lords: where he bringeth for him the foresaid place of S. Peter. And the scholies of that Canon do● note it to be written against the pride of Bishops: and that where they call their inferiors, children, they ought to call them brethren. And the same place of S. Peter, S. Bernard likewise allegeth to Pope Eugenius, & willeth him, as Peter's successor, to hear Peter, Epistola. 237. ad Eugenium 1. Petri. 5. 2. Cor. 1. yea and Paul also, both jointly warning him to avoid the using of dominion and Lordship over the Church. And telleth him that if he be sent by Christ, he is sent to serve, & not to be served. And exhorteth him not to be presumptuously wise, but to fear: and warneth him to beware of bribes, & to weigh the causes of the Archbishop of Canterbury, & the bishops of Winchester and York, not by money (according to the custom of the court of Rome) but by equity. For these Prelates at that time pursued their controversies in the court of Rome. And the same saint Bernard upon De consi●eratione ad Eugenium lib. 2. Lucae. 22. this place afore alleged out of saint Luke, The kings of the earth have dominion over them. etc. hath these words. It is plain: dominion is forbidden unto Apostles. Go therefore and be so bold, saith saint bernard to Pope Eugenius, as to usurp to thyself either the Apostleship using dominion: or dominion, usurpare aude aut dominans Apostolatum, aut Apostolicus dnatum. etc. Si utrunque similiter habere voles, perdes utrunque. Osee. 8. being Apostolic. Doubtless thou art forbidden the one or the other. If thou wilt have both a like, thou shalt lose both. And so forth, telling him plainly, that if he will needs reign, he shallbe of that company of whom God speaketh by the Prophet: They have reigned, but not by me: they have been Princes, and I have not known them. And if such several testimonies of doctors may not serus us, if we for further proof bring a number of doctors jointly agreeing together, & forbidding bishops such tyrannical dominion over the church of God: as did saint Cyprian in the Council of Carthage, with the allowance of the whole Council then, and with the approbation of saint Augustine afterward, and an other whole Council also: The words spoken by saint Cyprian in the said Council, and by so many Bishops and Doctors allowed, are these. Nemo nostrum episcopum se episcoporum constituit, aut tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi Cyprianus in council. Carth. in initio. Augusti. lib. 2. de bapt. contra Donatist. ca 2. necessitatem collegas suos adigit, quando habeat omnis episcopus pro licentia libeitatis, & potestatis suae arbitrium proprium, tanquàm judicari ab alio non possit, cum necipse possit alterum judicare. That is to say: None of us maketh himself Bishop over Bishops, or doth by tyrannical fear force his fellow Bishops to the necessity of obeying: seeing every Bishop hath for his liberty & power his free judgement, as he who can not be judged of an other, neither can himself judge an other Bishop. Thus far saint Cyprian and saint Augustine.) We shall profit, I say, no more by the allegations of Doctors, yea or whole Councils, than by the allegation of the Scriptures themselves, against the Pope's sayings or doings, what so ever they be. Neither the text of the scriptures, nor the interpretation of Doctors, nor judgements of Councils can have any credit against him. For as Pighius the principal Doctor of the Pope's part saith: In concilijs Hierarch. lib. 6. cap. 1. fol. 275. b. universalibus universis haud ferè aliud factum est, quàm ut convenientes ex toto orb episcopi, praeiudicatam iam Apostolicae sedis unanimi consensu amplexarentur & sequerentur sententiam, nec in eyes definitum aliquid, quod non iam praeiudicatum antè definitumque esset à sede Apostolica. That is to say: In all general Councils, for the most part, nothing else is done, but that Bishop's coming together out of all parts of the world, should embrace and follow with agreeable consent, the foreiudged and afore determined sentence of the Apostolic see: and that nothing was defined in such general Councils, the which was not before defined and foreiudged by the Apostolic see. Thus far Pighius: who also affirmeth in the same place, that the only judgement of this one see is more sure, than the judgement of an universal Council of the whole world. Whereby it may well be understanded, what labour and cost even by the Papists themselves is lost, and how in vain their Bishops take such pain to come to Councils out of all parts of Christendom, leaving their cures uncared for, and unlooked toes, and that sometime a sort of years together: as of late they have done, in the last Tridentine council, only to determine things already determined, The Tridentine Council began anno 1545. & ended anno 1563. in the which time they sat at Trident seven years. and that therefore they should like wise men keep themselves at h●me, and spare such travel and cost, and only hearken what is pronounced out of that sacred mouth of the Pope at Rome, and it to obey absolutely. And the same Pighius afterward in an other place saith expressly. Huic * Hierarc. li 6. ca 13. fo 323 c. The same doth M. Dorman teach fo. 62 b. out of pope Innocentius his epistle. sedi authoritas componendi & definiendi exortas i domo ecclesiastica universas questiones & controversias, ab eodem Christo est data: tibi verò illius definitionibus & judicijs absque ulla discussione est imposita obsequendi necessitas. That is to say: The authority of ordering, defining and determining of all questions and controversies risen in the Church, is given by Christ to this see of Rome: and upon thee is laid a necessity of obeying all definitions and determinations of the said see, without any examining or discussing of the same. These be Pighius words also. No marvel therefore, if you do well consider the premises, that M. Dorman calleth the Pope's supremacy, the foundation of al. Nay, it is the foundation, superstruction, batilmentes, garnishinges, and all together: it is all, and all in all. For were this one article of the Pope's supremacy with the appurtenaunces, as I have said, once obtained, you need not to travel in writing any more: you need not to bring any proofs out of the scriptures, Doctors or Councils for you, or against us any more: for it were concluded at once, that you be the Catholics, who do acknowledge the necessity of obeying the voice, the determinations, and definitions of that high Priest, without whattes, or whies, without discussing or examining of them by yourselves, or with others: and that we be the heretics, who do not obey his voice, being against God's voice: but are so bold to examine, how his voices do agree with God's voice. And therefore are we worthy to die most cruel death, due to such false heretics. Grant this one proposition of the Pope's supremacy with the appurtenances, I say, and by and by, all that M. Dorman hath hitherto most lewdly alleged, or shall allege hereafter, for the Pope's supremacy, is to the purpose: all lies he hath already made, and shall hereafter make for that purpose, are truths. And whatsoever we say to the contrary, what scriptures, what Doctors, what Councils so ever we bring, all is to no purpose, nor of any credit: for he alone is judge, whose the cause is: he alone, as your great Doctor Pighius saith, is more to be believed, than a general Council of the whole world assembled. And therefore hath M. Dorman done like a wise man, to entreat first of the Pope's supremacy, and in the treaty thereof to spend more paper & ink, more oil and labour, as they say, yea twice as much, as he hath done in the other three principal matters, though otherwise the greatest of all other, as touching even the very Mass itself, which as it hath hitherto sustained the Pope, and all his Clergy: so if the Pope do not now by his supremacy and irrefragable authority (sustained by master Dorman, like a friend at need) sustain the Mass again: it may come to pass, that bathe Pope and Mass, will come to nought shortly. Now followeth the division of M. Dormans' treaty. Dorman. fol. 4. In the handling whereof I purpose God willing to take this order: first, before I come to the principal point that lieth in question between us [which is of the bishop 1 of Rome's supremacy] to prove to you by most plain, and evident reasons, that the Church of Christ here militant in earth must of necessity for diverse and sundry urgent causes, have one chief head and ruler under Christ, to rule and govern the same. Secondarily, that that one head must needs be a Priest. 2 thirdly & so last of all, that of all priests the bishop of Rome is he, which must supply that place, and that 3 for so (that is head & ruler of the church) he hath been, of the ancient counsels, & old fathers, within the first six hundred years after Christ's departure, taken. Nowell. And I following your order, M. Dorman, do affirm, and will prove the contrary, to all, and every point of your division: that is to wit. first, that it is not profitable, much less necessary, that the Church of Christ here in earth should 1 have one chief head, and ruler under Christ, to govern the same: and that for divers, and sundry urgent and most weighty causes. secondarily, that no priest can be any such one 2 head of the Church here in earth. Thirdly, that of all priests, the bishop of Rome can not be that head: for that he is no Bishop, but rather a 3 temporal usurper, and tyrant, contrary to God's express word: and that all such places, as are by you, M. Dorman, and others alleged out of the scriptures and doctors, for the said bishop of Rome his supremacy, appertain nothing at all to that purpose. Dorman. fol. 4. Nowell. This is Pighi' his assertion. Hierarch. li. 5. ca 14. fo. 262. c. That Christ's Church here in earth, must of necessity have one chief head, and governor under Christ, to rule the same. Nowell. M. Dorman doth well begin with this part first, to prove that there must of necessity be one chief head and governor of the whole Church under Christ: for if there ought not to be such an one head and governor at all, he did well perceive, that consequently the bishop of Rome could not be that head and governor. Wherefore it being thoroughly proved, and manifestly declared, that M. Dorman faileth in the proof of this first point (as I doubt not but it shall be so proved and declared) I trust that all wise men shall understand, that this first and principal part, and stay of the whole being overthrown, his whole treaty of the bishop of Rome his supremacy shall altogether fall to ground with it, without any further batetrie to the same, or undermining thereof to be made. Dorman. Fol. 4. Nowell. This is in Pigh●us Hierar. lib. 4 cap. 3. fol. 149. b. The truth of this proposition [good christian readers] is not only by the whole order, and form of the estate of God's people in the old law [which was also the true church of God] long before the coming of our saviour into this world, but by the daily experience also, of c●uile and politic government, most manifestly confirmed. Nowell. Of the estate of God's people in the old law, who, as they were one several people, so had they one high priest: what can you gather further, but that likewise in every Diocese or country, it were good to have one chief prelate, or bishop to rule in the clergy? Which we deny not, nor ever did deny. But of this matter M. Dorman giveth us occasion to sa●e more hereafter. Dorman. Fol. 4. Nowell. Borrowed out of D. Harding Fol. 81. & 82. who had it out of Pighi' de Hierarch. lib. 5. cap. 2. fol. 204. For who is there so blind that he seeth not, that in the whole frame of this world, there is no kingdom so mighty, no realm so puissant, no city so populous, no town so wealthy: yea on the contrary part also, no village so little, no family so small, finally no so cietie of men, no not of those that have wrapped themselves in league, to rob and spoil, that can any while continue without a head to govern them. If therefore to live under the government of a head be a matter of such importance, as without the which neither great nor little, rich nor▪ poor, good nor bad can stand: how much more necessary shall we think it in Christ's Church here militant in earth, where the devil in his members, is continually occupied in raising of schisms, in stirring up discord, to vex and molest the people of God, to have this wholesome provision for the appeasing thereof, and the restoring of the same being troubled to quietness again? Nowell. This reason he had in D. Harding his book, who borrowed it of Pighius, which being taken out of S. Cyprian his epistle to one Pupianus, they have violently wrested to a wrong sense. For S. Cyprian maketh this reason directly against them, for the proof of his Cyprian. lib. 4. episto. 9 own authority, being bishop of Carthage, and for the authority of every Bishop in his own diocese. Now to the matter. Who is so blind? ꝙ M. Dorman: now surely I trust, no man is so blind, but he can see that M. Dorman reasoneth blindly, and without all reason gathering thus: that because every kingdom hath his several king, every people, city, town, village, house, yea every company of the eves, & robbers, have their several governor, or head: put to and you will also, (as doth saint Cyprian, out of whom D. Harding and M. Dorman undiscreatly took the occasion of this argument) every hive of Bees hath his captain Bee: therefore should it follow, that all Churches, or the whole church dispersed throughout the whole world, must have one head. You should M. Dorman, if you would have reasoned reasonably, have taken aswell saint Cyprian his conclusion, as you have taken his antecedent, and have concluded with him, Ergo in like wise every diocese, and every Church ought to have their several head prelate, or bishop, who is to be obeyed by all their own clergy: and we would have granted the consequencie, and consequent as they say. For by this means saint Cyprian concludeth, that Pupianus did wickedly in disobeiing saint Cyprian himself, who was his bishop. But neither saint Cyprian, nor any other learned man doth use these examples or similitudes any where, to prove that there ought to be one head or governor over all churches, or the universal church: but hath the clean contrary, saying thus. Singulis pastoribus portio gregis ascripta Lib. 1. epist. 3. pagin. 10. est, quam regat unusquisque, & gubernet, rationem sui actus domino redditurus. That is to say: A portion of the lords flock is appointed to every pastor by himself, the which every one ought to rule & govern, who shall give account of his doing to the Lord. And so forth, most plainly against the supremacy of one: and for that due government of every bishop over his own ture. This is saint Cyprian his reason, this is his conclusion, M. Dorman. But if you like your conclusion so well, that you will needs conclude, that there ought to be one general head of all Churches, you must thus begin. As there is one general governor or king over all the world, one general head over all people, all cities, towns, villages, and houses: one captain thief and robber, over all thieves and robbers: one king Bee, over all hives of Bees, throughout the whole world: so must there be one only head in earth over all Churches throughout the world. But as no man is so blind, but he seeth the falsehood of this antecedent: so is (I trust) no man so blind, but he seeth the absurdity and inconsequencie of your former conclusion, of one general head over all Churches, gathered out of an antecedent, and unlikely similitude of the several governors that every kingdom, country, people, city and town, and every company of men severally have. I marvel he alleged not Homer the Poet, and Aristotle the Philosopher also for the Pope's supremacy, as doth his master D. Harding, D. Harding fol. 81. b. who hath these words: It is not good, saith Homer, to have many rulers, let one be ruler. It is true, that Homer saith, it is not good to have many equal rulers over one country, or nation: but this maketh nothing to prove that there should be one head over all the Church throughout the world: except D. Harding can prove that Agamemnon was king of all the world, or at the least, that Homer meant he should so be: but he meant nothing less, for he speaketh of the government of the army of the Greeks only. And so I grant it is good likewise, that one bishop do govern one diocese: as it was good in Homer's judgement, that one grand captain should govern the Greek army. And thus much by the way to D. Harding his Poetical argument for the Pope's supremacy. Now seeing it pleased doctor Harding to make mention of Aristotle, who misliketh not aristocraty, that is to say, the governing of the best and wisest men, being a competent number: and seeing further, that many cities have been and be far better governed in Democraty, by many rulers chosen of the people, than ever was the whole church by one Pope: It is presumptuously done by M. Dorman, both against his master doctor Harding, and against Aristotle so noble a philosopher, and to zealously, for one Pope, to safe they be all blind, that can not see the necessity of one only head governor every where. And it may seem to some, that such kind of speech doth not so much spring out of absurdity of the matter, as out of the disposition of M. Dormans' drowsy head, and dim sight. Let us in England be in that point of the best judgement, and in the best case (as we be in deed) under so moderate a Monarchy: and yet let them withal, who have of long time been under the quiet government of many reasonable rulers, neither be stark blind, neither (though not in so happy a state as are we) yet in no unhappy case, as it seemeth M. Dorman would place them. But let every nation & city think itself most happy in that state of regiment, that God hath placed it in. And concerning the government of the universal Church, seeing it standeth of so many, or rather innumerable thousands of men and women of all countries, nations, and languages throughout the whole world, so that it can not possibly be ruled and governed by one, neither was it by God appointed to be by one governed, no more than the whole world itself, the several kingdoms, & countries thereof being appointed by God to several kings ●ccl. 17. b. 14. and governors. Yet if it must needs be governed by pope's, seeing it needeth many governors, I would we had many Popes, were they good governors: but being, as they are, false usurpers and cruel tyrants, one Pope is to many by one. Concerning the avoiding and quieting of Schisms and troubles in the Church, we say, that as the several kings of every kingdom, the several governors of every country and city etc. are able to oversee their several charges, and to keep their people in civil order and peace: so are the several Bishops of every diocese, and the several chief prelate's of every province able to avoid, or to appease, if they rise, all schisms and troubles ecclesiastical: as saint Cyprian, out of whom this reason is borrowed, and falsely wrested by them to an other purpose, doth most plainly teach, saying thus: Cum statutum sit omnibus nobis etc. Whereas an order, Cyprianus lib. 1. epist 3. pagin. 10. saith saint Cyprian, is taken amongst us all, and it is right and reasonable, that every man's cause be there heard, where the fault was committed: and whereas every Bishop hath a part of the flock assigned to him, which he ought to rule and govern, and for the which he must give an account unto the Lord, it is not convenient that such as be under their governance should run from one Bishop to an other, but there to make answer in their causes, where they may have accusers, and witnesses of their crimes. Except such desperate persons think the authority of Bishops in Africa to be less, then is the authority of other Bishops. Thus far saint Cyprian: with much more in the same place, expressly affirming that it is right and reason that several Bishops have the government of seu●rall dioceses, even for the same cause, for the which you do untruly allege the necessity of one head: and declaring the commodity of pacifying of heresies, Schisms, and dissensions (for of them he speaketh in that place) and of correction of vices by every such several Bishop in his own charge, mosie directly against D. Harding and M. Dormans' doctrine of pacifying of schisms by one only head of the universal Church: affirming all such appellations from a Bishop of one country, to a Bishop of an other country to be unlawful, for that all Bishops of all countries be of like authority: and that none but naughty and desperate men, do think the authority of some bishops, to be inferior to the authority of other. And further, following D. Harding, and M. Dormans' own grounds, we say: that as God is the one heavenly king over all the world, and yet hath not appointed any one man to be his only deputy in earth over all the Kingdoms of the world: but that the whole world is governed by his providence, as the only king thereof, and by the ministery of many several kings and rulers, whom he hath severally Eccl. 17. b. 14▪ Rom. 13▪ ●. appointed over every nation, as his deputies, as is expressly declared in the scripture: so in like wise is Christ the only heavenly head of his Church, and neither needeth, nor hath appointed any one person in earth, to be his deputy or vicar general over all the church throughout the world: but by his providence, and the ministery of many Bishops, his several vicar's in every diocese, both hath, and doth well govern his Church: and that as it is impossible, that there should be one only earthly king over all the world, (as by the state of the world, from the beginning hitherto, is most manifest) and in case there were one, yet were it impossible for that one to oversee his charge, and to keep all the world in Civil order (seeing the wisest kings that be, have of one particular kingdom their handful as they say) so in like manner is it impossible, that there should be one general head in earth over the universal Church, or all Churches dispersed throughout all the world, containing so many nations, so diverse languages, and natures of men: or that such an head could oversee his charge, & keep all Churches from Schisms and troubles, and pacify them when they were risen. This, as a thing tried by the state of the world at this day, and ever sith the first beginning thereof, I leave to thy reasonable consideration, good reader, to determine betwixt us. Dorman. Fol. 5. And because good Christian readers, you shall well perceive, that this is no new devise, or fantasy imagined by me: I will here lay before your eyes, the judgement of certain notable men, whom God gave to his church to serve for a wall for the same, against the incursions of the wicked Phylistines his enemies. In whom you shall most plainly perceive, this order in Christ's Church to be so necessary, that the only breach and lack thereof, hath been by them taken, to be the high way, & very path that leadeth to all heresies. Nowell. M. Dorman may be careless, no man taketh the Pope's supremacy to be his devise and invention: it is known to be the invention of the ambitious Popes themselves, whom the devil hath set a work to trouble the quiet state of Christendom, and to bring all errors into Christ his Church, and to lay the foundation of the kingdom of Antichrist. Dorman. Fol. 5. And first to begin with that blessed martyr of God saint Cyprian, hath he not concerning thi● matter, Nowell. Borrowed out of D. Harding Fol. 76. b. who had it out of Hosins' contra Brent. lib. 5. fol. 234. b. in an epistle by him written to Cornelius then bishop of Rome, these words? Neque enim aliunde obortae ●b. 1. epist. 3. sunt haereses, aut nata sunt schismata, quàm ind● quèd sacerdoti dei non obtemperatur, nec unus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos, & ad tempus tudex, vice Christi cogitatur. That is, neither ●he high way ● heresies to ●i●ke that ●et is not one ●dge in earth ● the steed of ●hriste. yet truly do heresies arise, or schisms grow, of any other cause, than thereof, that men obey not the Priest of God, neither do think, that there is in the Church in the steed and place of Christ, one Priest, and one judge for the tyme. Nowell. Either M. Dorman had not with sufficient diligence read and noted that long epistle, written by saint Cyprian to Cornelius Bishop of Rome, or else he deeply dissembleth that, which he there perceived. For though the epistle be written to Cornelius, yet it is for a great part written of Cyprian himself: and many of the sentences in that epistle, yea & this very sentence, which M. Dorman here allegeth for Cornelius his supremacy, as Bishop of Rome, by the tenure of the epistle appeareth to be written specially of saint Cyprian himself, Bishop of Carthage in Africa, rather than of Cornelius, as afterward at large shallbe declared. And further it appeareth that this sentence, and all other sentences of the authority of the Priest, or Priests, Bishop, or Bishops (for saint Cyprian in that epistle doth oft change the number, and sometime speaketh as of one, sometime as of many, or all Priests and Bishops) do indifferently appertain, as well to every, and all Bishops of all cities and dioceses, as to either Cornelius, or Cyprian. For that he here saith Sacerdoti dei non obtemperatur, The priest of God is not obeyed, is asmuch as, Sacerdotibus dei, the Priests of God are not obeyed. As when the scripture saith, Regem honora, honour the King, is as much, as though it had said, Let subjects of all places, honour their kings. Touching these words, Neque unus in ecclesia ad tempus Sacerdos, & ad tempus index vice Christi cogitatur: that is to say, Neither is one Priest in the Church for the time, and judge for the time in Christ's steed thought upon. I have declared at large before, how that saint Cyprian taketh all bishoprics, to be but one Bishopric, as the faiths of all men, are but one faith. Vnafides, saith saint Cyprian, unum baptisma, unus episcopus, cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur. There is one faith, Lib. de simplicitate praelatorum, non procul ab initio. one Baptism, there is one Bishopric, the which every Bishop hath wholly for his part. So that when he speaketh of one Bishop, one judge in the church for the time, or of the bishop which is one, and ruleth the Church absolutely, he meaneth every Bishop in his own diocese without exception: if he speak specially, he doth mean the Bishop of that city or diocese whereof he entreateth, whether it be the bishop of Rome, Carthage, or any other place. For the most manifest proof whereof, note these words of saint Cyprian to Pupianus, who was stubborn against the said Cyprian, whereof it hath been before entreated. unde enim schismata etc. Whereof saith saint Cyprian Lib. 4. epist. 9 do heresies and Schisms spring, but of this, that the Bishop which is one, and ruleth the Church, is through the proud & arrogant presumption of certain contemned, and set at nought: and being the man by God's approbation allowed and honoured, is of unworthy men judged. And a little before this place: T● te episcopum episcopi, & judicem judicis ad tempus à deo dati constituis. Thou dost make thyself a Bishop over the Bishop, and a judge over the judge by God for the time appointed. Thus much saint Cyprian to Pupianus, who despised the said Cyprian, so appointed by God to be the Bishop, and judge for the time, as he there saith. Now in his epistle to Cornelius, he saith thus: Neque enim aliunde etc. Neither do heresies arise, or schisms grow, of any other cause, but hereof: that men obey not the Priest of God, neither do think that there is in the Church, in the steed, and place of Christ, one Priest, one judge for the tyme. Compare now these two places together, and you shall find them all one in effect: And that S. Cyprian, nor any other could have uttered in divers places, one sense more nearly, unless he would have used the same words altogether. But it is most manifest to all men, that will read these epistles, that in the first place, by the bishop which is one and ruleth the Church, by the man by God's approbation allowed, by the contemning of whom, heresies and schisms do spring and arise, by the Bishop or Priest, and by the judge for the time by God appointed, S. Cyprian himself being Bishop of Carthage is meant: and by him, that despiseth the said Bishop, is Pupian meant, who did despise the said S. Cyprian. Wherefore either it must follow, that saint Cyprian is the head of the universal Church, seeing those words, which by M. Dormans' judgement appointed that head, appertain to him: or else, as the truth is in deed, that any Bishop is called by saint Cyprian, the Bishop which is one, and ruleth the Church, or the judge for the time in the Church in Christ's steed or place (for all is one) and that then the special bishop of that place which is entreated of, whether it be Rome, Carthage, or any other, is meant: and so consequently every Bishop in his own diocese, is that one Bishop that ruleth in the church: and that judge for the time, in the steed of Christ. And that in this place, saint Cyprian meaneth no supremacy of any one Bishop, but the equality of all Bishops, it may be most evident to them, that will read the whole epistle, and note how oft he speaketh of all Priests, and Bishops. As, Sacerdotibus tantus honor conceditur: so great honour is given to Priests: and immediately before the place by M. Dorman alleged, are these words: Sacerdotalis authoritas, &, Sacerdotum hosts: That is to say, the Priestly authority, and, the enemies of Priests. Also these words next following the same place: Sacerdotum collegium: & mox, Sacerdotes. i. dispensatores dei: the College or company of Priests: and, the Priests, that is to say, God's dispensers or stewards. If they will in reading the epistle note these, and many like phrases, they shall easily perceive this also, which M. Dorman allegeth, to be spoken of the authority of many, and not of one only. And if it be to tedious to peruse the whole epistle, if the readers will but cast their eye upon the short argument of the epistle written by Erasmus, who was no unskilful, or negligent viewer of the writings of the old fathers (and whose authority M. Dorman useth in this book against us) they shall easily understand the same. Erasmus his words in the argument, or sum of this epistle, are these: Ostendit praetereà, qualiter sacerdotalis authoritas, & potestas, divina dignatione firmetur: & inde abortas haereses, & nata esse schismata, ꝙ dei sacerdotibus obtemperare noluerint. Saint Cyprian doth show (saith Erasmus) how the Priestly authority and power, is by God's goodness established: and that heresies Divina dignation●. and schisms do arise hereof, that they will not obey the Priests of God. Thus far Erasmus: who speaketh, as you see, of the very place here by M. Dorman alleged. And if M. Dorman had read and marked but this short argument of that epistle, thereby might he have understanded, that this place by him alleged for the supremacy of one, to wit Cornelius as Bishop of Rome, pertaineth to the authority of all the Priests of God, aswell as to him. And that saint Cyprian Lib. 4. epist. ●. meaneth that every one Bishop should be ruler only in his own diocese, and that no one Bishop or other man should be ruler and judge over all other Bishops, appeareth by his words, wherewith he blameth Pupianus for that presumption: Tu te episcopum episcopi etc. Thou dost make thyself a bishop over the Bishop, and a judge of the judge, by God for the time appointed. These are saint Cyprians words, with whom in this case saint Augustine doth agree: Augu contra Donatistas de baptismo. lib. 2. cap. 2. ex epistola Cypriani ad Quintum. who (as is before noted) reporteth, and alloweth these words of saint Cyprian. Neque quisquam nostrum episcopum se esse episcoporum constituit. etc. That is to say, none of us maketh himself Bishop over Bishops, or doth by tyrannical fear force his fellow Bishops to the necessity of obeying. Seeing every Bishop hath of his liberty and power, his own free judgement, as he who can not be judged of an other, neither can himself judge an other: let us then look all for the judgement of our Lord jesus Christ, who alone hath power both to place us in the governance of the church, and to judge of our acts. Thus far saint Cyprian and faincte Augustine: by whose judgement you see, M. Dorman, how the Pope hath usurped a tyranny over other Bishops, in taking upon him to be Bishop over all Bishops, and judge over the judges appointed for the time in Christ's steed: and that you maintain the said tyranny. Dorman. Fol. 5. Hitherto saint Cyprian. By the which words good Christian readers, it is so evident, that there must be one Priest in the Church, whom all other must obey, that the same must be taken of us, for judge Th'Apology of the English church reproved by sainct● Cyprian, here in earth, in the steed of Christ: that you see I nothing doubt, great cause to condemn, the gross ignorance of our late apology: wherein the authors, contrary to this doctrine of saint Cyprian, most impudently pronounce, that in his Church, Christ our lord useth not, the help of any one man alone to govern the same in his absence, as he that standeth in need of no such help, and that if he did, no mortal man could be found, able alone to do the same: and finally with the same S. Cyprian, who died a holy martyr, and is no doubt a saint in heaven, to whom the belief of both these two articles seemed not only not impossible, but also very necessary, to live and die in the obedience of this Priest, and under such a judge, then with a sort of lewd losels, in whose Church [being a certain The definiti●● of the prot●●● tantes church. secret scattered congregation unknown to all the world beside, and to their own fellows too] is neither head, order, obedience, neither yet certain rules or grounds where on to stay, to run headlong ye wot no more than your guides whither. Nowell. I trust it is sufficiently and most evidently declared, that every Bishop in his own diocese, is that one Priest, whom all must obey: and that this place appertaineth to any Bishop of any place, as well as the Bishop of Rome. But whereas M. Dorman would so ●aine have these words of saint Cyprian, unus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos etc. which is to say, one Priest and one judge in the Church for the time in the steed of Christ, to prove that there ought to be one head Bishop over all the Church: if that, to gratify M. Dorman, were granted him: where upon he would gather consequently, that Cornelius, as Bishop of Rome, should be that one head, as to whom, and of whom this place is written (as M. Dorman thinketh): if it be declared by the very place itself, that these words be spoken and meant of saint Cyprian himself, and not of Cornelius: and so consequently the supremacy of the Church by their own reason, to be removed from Rome, to Carthage in Africa, where no Christian Church now is, may not M. Dorman, D. Harding, and Hosius, who do all so confidently allege this place for the Bishop of Rome his supremacy, be either ashamed of their great folly, or else declare their shameless impudency? For declaration whereof, I say, that as this third epistle of the first book is written to Cornelius, then Bishop of Rome: so is a great part of the said epistle written of saint Cyprian his own affairs, and of the injuries done to himself, by the heretics, both present in Africa, and of their railings against him in his absence, as appeareth by these words, about a side of a leaf in folio, from the beginning of the epistle. Quae autem sui elatio, quae comminantium tumens, & inflata, ac vana iactatio, illic absenti minari, cùm hic me habeant in potestate praesentem? What a presumption of themselves i● this, what a swelling and puffed, and vain braggerie is this, there to mannesse me being absent, when as they have me here present in their hands? By these words of S. Cyprian it appeareth evidently, that here he speaketh of himself, being despised, and in his absence railed upon by certain of his own inferiors: and so goeth on with a long process, and with many allegations out of the scriptures, and reproveth that damnable vice of a proud and slanderous tongue. Amongst other places he allegeth this text. He that saith thou fool to his brother etc. is guilty of hell fire: whereof he inferreth, how can they then escape the judgement of God the avenger, who spoke such things not only to brethren, but also to Priests? And so proceeding allegeth out of the Scriptures against those heretics, which had so railed on him: as out of Deuteronomium the 17 chapter, and out of the first book of Kings, out of the 8. of matthew, and the 10. of Luke, the 23. of the Acts, of the obedience and reverence due to the high priests, and to the Apostles. And all this he writeth specially, to confirm his own authority, being so unworthily railed on behind his back: as is most evident by the continuance of the process. After which followeth the place by M. Dorman alleged, of the priest of God who is not obeyed, and of one priest, and one judge in the church in Christ's steed, not regarded. Which words he speaketh of himself so abused by those heretics, so railing on him behind his back, as by all that goeth before, from the first entry of speaking of himself and his own wrongs, and still continuing the treaty of himself, and his own matters, and also by these words following, it doth most plainly appear. Caeterum dico, dico enim provocatus etc. But I say, saith saint Cyprian, for I say, being provoked (to wit, by such railers upon him as he began first to speak of) I say, being sorrowful, I say, being compelled: when a bishop is placed in the room of his predecessor being dead, when he is chosen peaceably, by the voice of all the people: being in persecution defended by God's help, joined faithfully to all his fellow bishops, tried and allowed of his people in his bishopric four years: suffering so many persecutions, even at this very time, in the which I do write to you these letters, cried for to be thrown to the Lions: when such a brother is assaulted of certain desperate and wicked persons, it appeareth that they which do so assault him, be the enemies of Christ. Thus far saint Cyprian: whereby it appeareth, that he hath continued, and doth still continue to write of himself, by the very words, provocatus dico, I say being provoked etc. and by the circumstances of his complaints to Cornelius, for such unworthy despising of him and railing upon him, by such his disobedient inferiors, and by the circumstance of the matter & time, where he saith, that he, who was of his people allowed four years in his Bishopric, is the broother so assaulted: being the Priest of God, is so despised: being the judge in Christ's steed for the time, is not regarded, as he said before. Whereby it is most manifest, that saint Cyprian meaneth himself, and not Cornelius, who was bishop of Rome but three years, or as Platina and others say, Nicephorus lib. 6. cap. 33. Platina in vita Cornelii. but two years. So that these words of one priest & one judge in the Church, for the time in steed of Christ (which M. Dorman hath alleged for the supremacy of one head of the universal Church) can not possibly be taken as spoken of Cornelius Bishop of Rome, but are directly spoken of S. Cyprian himself Bishop of Carthage in Africa (as I doubt not but all learned, and discreet men reading the epistie will judge.) Wherefore it falleth out, by M. Dormans' diligence, that Carthage, which is in Africa, and in the possession of the Infideles, should be the see of the supreme head of the Church, and not Rome. Now the truth in deed is, that as this place is here alleged by saint Cyprian, with a number of scriptures there like wise rehearsed for the maintenance of his own authority in his Bishopric: so do they likewise appertain to the authority of every other bishop in his own diocese, who is there th'one priest, and the one judge in the church in Christ's steed for the tyme. And neither these, neither any other such places were ever alleged by S. Cyprian, for the supremacy of any one Bishop, over all the church. Let S. Cyprians words next before the very place, by M. Dorman alleged, prove this that I have said. Cum haec tanta, & talia, & multa alia exempla praecedant etc. That is to say, where as these such, and so great examples, with many other, do●e go before, by the which the sacerdotal authority and power is by God's goodness established: what manner Di●nadignatione. of men think you be they, which being the enemies of Priests, and rebels against the catholic Church, are feared neither by the threatenings of the Lord, forewarning: nor with the vengeance of the judgement to come. For hereof rise heresies and schisms, that the priest of God is not obeyed &c. as master Dorman hath alleged out of this place of S. Cyprian. You may see that where S. Cyprian saith now, The priest of God, as speaking of one: immediately before, he said, The priests, as of many: as it is all one to say, Obey thy superior: and, Obey thy superiors. Which also declareth that the words next following, of one Priest, and one judge, in the Church in Christ's steed, do appertain to all Bishops: that is, to every one in his own diocese, and not, one to be over all the church. Concerning the Apology, master Dorman his own example of civil government, ● little before alleged, plainly declareth that he doth unjustly find fault with it. For as the Apology with us denieth not, but that every king in his own realm, every meaner magistrate in his office is, in God's steed or place, a judge for the time: so doth it not deny but that every Bishop in his diocese is, in Christ's steed or place, judge for the time. But as the Apologi● denieth that every one King is, or can be in God's place, judge over all the world to rule it: but every king is in God's steed judge in his own kingdom or kingdoms, as God doth appoint, for he giveth to Eccle. 17. b. 14 divers kings many kingdoms, but to none, all: so doth it deny, that any one bishop is, or can be, in God's place, judge in the universal church, or in all churches throughout the world. Wherefore the Apology is herein unjustly blamed of you M. Dorman: neither doth S. Cyprian (who died an holy martyr, and is no doubt a saint in heaven) hold with you against the Apology, but with it against you most plainly, in this and all other places, which you have untruely alleged, and all reasons, that you have unreasonably gathered, and violently wrested against it, out of S. Cyprian. And I trust that of this, & such like undiscrete allegations, it will appear to the wise reader, how little cause M. Dorman had to triumph, as though S. Cyprian were of his side altogether: and withal, so insolently to rail upon us, saying: that it were better with S. Cyprian, to live and die in the obedience of this Priest, and under such a judge (meaning the Pope, of whose supremacy saint Cyprian never dreamt) then with a sort of lewd losels, in whose Church (being a certain secret scattered congregation, unknown to all the world beside, and to their own fellows too) is neither head, order, obedience, neither yet certain rules or grounds whereon to stay, to run headlong ye ●ote no more than your guides whither. And withal to note in the margin of his book, this to be the definition of the protestants church. To the which outrageous railynges, in this and all other places, I say as S. Cyprian in this very epistle saith to such like railers against him. Multa turpia, & probrosa, & ore Lib. 1. epist. 3. non procul ab initio. tuo digna, te proffer. That thou uttereste many vile, and shameful words, meet for thine own mouth. And as S. Augustine, even in the place by M. Dorman in the first face of his book alleged, doth say to Petilian, being a weak reasoner, but a mighty railer, such as M. Dorman is. Tu es maledicus conviciator, August. contra Perilianun lib. 2. cap. 32. non veridicus disputator. Thou art an evil tongued railer, not a true and pithy reasoner. The first part whereof, M. Dorman himself doth in this place, and in all the rest of his book prove abundantly: the weakness of his reasoning, partly I have already, and shall hereafter more, and (as I trust) sufficiently declare. Now to the matter: I say, our congregation is not so scattered, nor so secret and unknown to the world, as M. Dorman doth make it: the Pope and his have both more knowledge and feeling also, then liking thereof. And we take this objection as no reproach, being common to our congregation with the primitive church of our saviour Christ, & his holy Apostles, specially in the time of persecution. We are not headless, as you make us: we have Christ in heaven, & our Prince in earth under him: we have orders both civil and ecclesiastical, and live (as men may) thereafter. We do obey our natural Prince, and the magistrates, and ecclesiastical prelate's under our Prince with better conscience, than you do obey your foreign head, the Pope of Rome. We have the rules & grounds of God's word, and therefore we know whither to go, and whereupon to stay: whatsoever you M. Dorman say. Dorman. Fol. 5. But saint Cyprian, was he trow you of this mind Nowell, Borrowed of doctor Harding fol. 80. b who calleth this a notable saying. alone? No verily, for saint Hierom is of the same, as by these his words it is most evident. Ecclesiae salus; in summi sacerdotis pendet dignitate, cuisi non exors, & ab omnibus Contra Luci●●rianos. eminens detur potestas, ●ot in Ecclesia efficientur schismata quot sacerdotes. The health [saith he] and welfare of the Church, dependeth upon the estimation of the chief Priest, who, if he have not authority peerless, and above One chief Priest to a●oide schisms all other, ye shall have in the Church, so many schisms, as there be Priests. Nowell. It is true that S. Jerome is of the same mind that S. Cyprian was of: but neither of them both were of that mind that D. Harding and M. Dorman be of: that is to wit, that either there should be one head over all the church, or that the Bishop of Rome should be that head: but that every bishop in his own diocese is summus sacerdos, the high priest over his own clergy: and that one bishop is not superior to an other. Neither hath saint Jerome in the whole dialogue against the Luciferians, asmuch as one word that is special to the Bishop of Rome only, but common to all bishops of all places: as the learned, that will read the dialogue, shall easily understand: and as Erasmus in the argument of the said Dialogue, hath well noted, saying: Liber est in primis lectu dignus, quip qui multa salutaria praecepta complectatur de vita Episcoporum. The book is very worthy to be read (saith Erasmus) as the which doth contain many wholesome precepts concerning the life of Bishops. Thus far Erasmus. For whereas the Luciferians thought that lay men, which had fallen into heresy, being penitent, might be received into the church again, but that bishops ought not to be received again upon their penance, except they were unbishopped, S. Jerome proveth that the bishops also upon conversion & penance, might be received, and remain still bishops. And here about is the disputation in the first part of the said dialogue, containing the one half of the same: in the which part also is this sentence by D. Harding and M. Dorman alleged, for the authority of one Bishop over the whole Church, which is by S. Jerome there moste plainly spoken for the authority of every bishop in his own diocese. But it is expedient that I do note certain of the places out of the said dialogue, which evidently do prove that which I say of every bishop's authority, & do reprove the wresting of this place by D. Harding & M. Dorman, to the authority of one bishop over all the church. Orthodoxus dixit: Nescis & laicos & clericos Orthodoxus. unum habere christum, nec alium neophytis, alium Episcopis esse deum: cur ergo non recipiat clericos, qui recipit laicos penitentes? That is to say: He of the right faith said thus: doest thou not know that aswell they of the laity as they of the clergy have both one Christ, & that such as be but novices in christian religion have not one God, and bishops an other? (but that both have one God): why should not he therefore receive them of the clergy, who doth receive such of the laity as be penitent? And again, not much after. Luciferianus: oro te nonne legisti de episcopis dictum: vos estis shall te●rę? etc. which is to say The Luciferiam said: I pray thae haste thou not read that which is spoken of bishops: you are the salt of the earth? but if the salt have lost his saltness, what can be salted therewith? and so forth at large. Unto whom Orthodoxus answereth thus, Sat, ita ut vis, Arrianorum Episcopus hostis Christi, sit sal infatuatum etc. That is to say, Be it so as thou wouldst have it, that an Arrian bishop is the enemy of Christ, be it the he is infatuate or unsavoury salt etc. Hitherto out of S. Jerome against the Luciferians. Whereby you may see that he speaketh of many bishops, or of one heretic bishop, as of all of the same sort. Now to come nearer the place, by D. Harding and M. Dorman alleged: whereas the Luciferian thinketh the dignity of a bishop to be so great, that it may not be retained by one that hath once been in heresy, S. Jerome confesseth in deed that bishops be in authority above all priests & deacons in their own diocese, but that yet they may nevertheless after penitence retain their bishoprics. These be S. Hieromes words alitile before the place by M. Dorman alleged. Orthodoxus. Non equiden abnuo hanc ecclesiarum esse consuetudinem, ut ad eos qui longè in minoribus vrbibus per presbyteros, & diaconos baptizati sunt, episcopus ad invocationem sanctispuns, manum impositurus excurrat etc. That is: I do not deny this to be the custom of churches, that the bishop doth come to those that be baptized in lesser towns by Priests & deacons, to lay his hand upon them, with the invocation of the holy ghost. And shortly after he saith: Quòd si hoc loco quaeris, quare in ecclesia baptizatus, nisi ꝑ manus episcopi non accipiat spiritum sanctum, quem oens asserimus in vero baptismate tribui? disce hanc obseruationem, ex ea autoritate descendere, ꝙ post ascensum dni spiritus sanctus ad apostolos descendit. Et multis in locis idem factitatum reperimus, ad honorem potius sacerdotij, quam legis necessitatem. Alioqui si ad episcopi tantùm imprecationem spiritus sanctus defluit: lugendi sunt qui in viculis aut in castellis, aut in remotioribus locis per praesbyteros & diaconos baptizati, antè dormierunt, quàm ab Episcopis inviserentur. Ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis dignitate pendet: cui si non exors quaedam, & ab omnibus eminens detur potestas, tot in ecclesiis effictentur schismata quot sacerdotes. That is to say: If you ask in this place, wherefore he that is baptized in the Church, doth not receive the holy ghost, but by the hands of the bishop, the which holy ghost we all do affirm to be given in true Baptism? Learn, this observation to come of that authority, that after the ascension of our Lord, the holy ghost came down unto the Apostles. And we find that the same is done in many places, rather for the honour of Priesthood, then of the necessity of the law. Else if the holy Ghost come down only at the prayer of the bishop, they are to be lamented, who being baptized by Priests and deacons, in little towns and villages, or places further of, do die before they be visited by the bishops. The health of the church dependeth upon the estimation of the chief Priest: who, if he have not authority peerless, and above all other, ye This is master Dormans' translation. shall have in the church so many schisms, as there be Priests. Thus far S. Jerome: whose words I have repeated at large, and in the last place without any intermission have joined the very words, by D. Harding and M. Dorman alleged, to S. Hieromes words next before. Whereby it is most evident that S. Jerome speaketh of every bishop in his own diocese, and of the priests and deacons that be under him in his said diocese. And that the authority which S. Jerome saith the Bishop hath, is the authority of laying his hands upon children, or other lately baptized by inferior ministers, and curates in villages of the said diocese (which authority is appertaining to all bishops in their own diocese) & that bishops have that authority given them above other priests or deacons, being curates of smaller towns and villages in their diocese, not by the necessity of God's law, but for the honour of their bishopric. For if every priest of the diocese should in all points be of equal authority with the bishop, there would arise so many Schisms by the arrogancy of the priests, as there be priests. And for this cause hath every bishop an authority peerless (as M. Dorman doth translate it) and above all other priests in his diocese. For it is evident by the places before alleged, that comparison is made between priests, deacons and cuvates in small towns and villages, who have authority to baptize, being many, and between the Bishop of the diocese, who is one, and the high priest in the said diocese, and hath authority peerless over all other priests and deacons in the same diocese: And that there is no comparison here made between the bishop of Rome, as the high priest, or bishop over all other priests and bishops, as D. Harding and M. Dorman without all shame would wrest it: whereas there is not one word from the beginning of that long dialogue of S. Hieromes unto this place by them alleged, nor to the end of the same, either written, or meant of the bishop of Rome, but of every Bishop in his own diocese. And therefore this whole matter is altogether impertinente to D. Harding, and M. Dormans' purpose, of one only head over the whole Church, unless M. Dorman would frame us thereof this lewd argument: Saint Jerome saith that every bishop ought to have authority above all other priests of his own diocese, ergo the Bishop of Rome ought to have a pre-eminence peerless above all bishops of all dioceses, and over the whole church throughout the whole world. Which may well be M. Dormans' reason: but fure I am, that no reasonable man, being awake, will so reason. To conclude, you see it is not without great cause, that * Fol. 80. b. Where he untruly saith, that S. Hieron here meaneth the Pope Peter's successos. D. Harding in his book calleth this place of S. Jerome a notable place, and saith that it may not be let pass: which his masters words, M. Dorman well noting▪ would not suffer it to pass, until he had by the handling thereof, declared his notable foolishness. Wherein as I do little marvel of M. Dorman, whom, the leude● the writing is, the better it doth become him: so can I not but much muse how it should come to pass, that doctor Harding, or any of any honesty and learning, should so abuse himself, and the readers, with the allegation of such impertinente places: and with what conscience, and shamefastness they can do it. Unless they think that this excuse may serve in matters of religion also: Dolus an virtus, quis in host requirat? which is to say, What matter maketh it whether you use fine force (plain truth) or guile, with an enemy? And therefore they deal with us rather as enemies, then as doth become themselves being Christians, or as appertaineth to the treaty of religion, worthy of all truth & sincerity. Dorman. fol. 5. And again in an other place, speaking of the apostles Ad Euagr●●. he writeth thus, Quòd unus posteà electus est qui caeteris praeponeretur, in schismatis rem●dium factum est, ne unusquisque ad se tra●ens ecclesiam rumperet. That is, That one was afterward chosen to rule the rest, that was done for a remedy against schisms, lest while every man would challenge to himself the church, by such haling and pulling they might break the same. No well. S. Hier●me in his epistle to Euagrius, showeth that praesbyter and episcopus, a Priest and a bishop, be all one, by the first institution, and by the Law of God: which he proveth by many testimonies of the scriptures, and withal he declareth that the Apostles themselves were called praesbyteri, that is to say, elders or priests. So that all bishops, which be the successors of the Apostles, be also praesbyteri, that is to say, priests: whereof it followeth also, that there is an equality amongst all bishops by God's law, as the equal successors Omnes Apostolorum successores sun●. of the Apostles. And that this is S. Hieromes mind in that place, all learned men, who have red the said epistle, do well know. Now to that plac● which M. Dorman allegeth out of this epistle: Quòd autem postea unus electus est, qui caeteris praeponeretur, in schismatis remedium factum est: ne unusquisque ad se trahens ecclesiam rumperet. That is to say: That one was afterward chosen to rule the rest, that was done for a remedy against schisms: lest while every man would challenge to himself the church, by such haling and pulling they might break the same. Thus far hath M. Dorman alleged: but S. Jerome proceedeth further to declare the same matter, by these words. Name & Alexandria à Marco evangelista, usque ad Heraclam & Dionysium episcopos, praesbyteri semper unum ex se electum, in excelsiori gradu collocatum, episcopum nominabant: quomodo si exercitus imperatorem faciat, aut Diaconi eligant de se, quem industrium noverint, & archidiaconum vocent. Quid enim facit, excepta ordinatione, episcopus, quod praesbyter non faciat? That is to say: For at Alexandria from Mark the evangelist, unto Heracla and Dionysius being bishops there, the priests did ever place one chosen of their company in the higher room, and named him, bishop: as if an army should make a captain: or deacons should choose one of their own company, whom they know to be active and diligent, and call him archdeacon. For what doth the bishop (only ordering excepted) that a priest may not do? These are saint Hieromes words. Whereby it appeareth plainly, that the words of saint Jerome, One chosen afterward amongst them to rule the rest, for a remedy of schisms, do appertain to every Bishop, as head ruler of the Clergy of his own Diocese. For, saith S. Jerome, such an head ruler was chosen at Alexandria in Egypt, where S. Mark the Evangelist, Heracla and Dionysius were bishops, to govern the priests and clergy there. And withal whatsoever was done afterward, was not done de iure divino: upon the ground of God's law, as you would have the Pope's supremacy to stand, but of an ecclesiastical order and policy. For that which was done by God's law, was not done afterward, but first: this which was thus done afterward, saith saint Jerome, was done rather for the honour of the priesthood, then for the Jerome contia Luciferianos: ad honorem potius sacerdotii, quam ad legis necessitatem. necessity of the law. For by the law of God, which is first, the priest (as S. Jerome saith) may do asmuch, excepting ordering only, as may the bishop: but afterward for order, one was placed in the highest place for the avoiding of schisms. And if a priest by saint Hieromes mind, may do asmuch as a Bishop, I think one bishop also may by God's law, do asmuch as an other bishop. Further seeing this one afterward chosen to rule the rest, was chosen aswell at Alexandria, as at Rome, or elsewhere: and the Bishop of Alexandria was that ruler of the rest of his Clergy, as well as was the bishop of Rome of his own clergy: it must needs fall out, that these words, one chosen afterward to rule the rest, either make for no supremacy of any one bishop over all the church, as appertaining to every Bishop in his own diocese: or if M. Dorman will needs enforce a supremacy by the said words, he shallbe enforced to confess the said supremacy to be common to the bishop of Alexandria (where S. Jerome saith this one was chosen to rule the rest) with the bishop of Rome: as by the other place last before alleged by M. Dorman out of S. Cyprian, the said supremacy should appertain to the Bishop of Carthage. But both Carthage, and Alexandria are now in the hands of Infideles, and therefore can there be no supremacy of the church there: and yet aswell there, as at Rome, where Christ is as much blasphemed, as he is either at Alexandria, or Carthage. But it is in deed most plain by that epistle of S. Jerome, that he doth not mean that one bishop should be above an other, much less, one head over all other. For he expressly saith, that all bishops be equal, and none superior, nor inferior to an other by God's law. Neither doth it hurt our cause, in case that we grant to M. Dorman, that this place doth appertain to the Apostles: and that one was chosen amongst the Apostles themselves to have the chief place: that is, to speak first, to moderate other, to stay contention, and to remedy schisms. Nay it maketh with us directly, who do grant that as amongst those twelve one was so chosen to be ruler: so it is good, that in every competent number of priests and clergy, one be chosen likewise to be ruler. And if M. Dorman upon this grant, would infer such a supremacy of one over the rest of the Apostles, as the Pope claimeth over the church: Saint Paul reproving Peter more sharply to his face, then Gala. 2. c. 11. etc. is lawful now for any bishop to deal with the Pope, doth prove that Peter had no such supremacy. For though the Pope by his abominable doings do Distinct. 40. ca Si papa. Extra. joannis. 22. Tit. 4. cap. 2. in scholiis. damn himself and innumerable other, yet may no man be so bold as to blame him therefore, but let him go uncontrolled to the devil of hell. Neither followeth it, though one man be chosen so to be ruler amongst xii. therefore may one also be chosen to be ruler over all the Clergy of the world, of all nations and languages, and to far of also, to be well ruled. No more doth it follow, for that S. Jerome doth say, that one was chosen of the company of the Priests of every one Church or diocese, to rule the rest (as namely was done at Alexandria) the which ruler was called the bishop: therefore ought there to be one chosen to rule all bishops of all dioceses (namely at Rome) & the said one ruler to be called Pope, or head of the untuersall Church. For this kind of collection, usual to M. Dorman, I have by his own former reasons and similitudes of several governors or Princes, necessary to be over every city, country, or kingdom, and that none can be over the whole world, proved to be a vain and lewd collection. And I have also by his own witnesses, S. Cyprian, and S. Jerome, and by the very places of them, by him guilefullie wrested, at large declared the same. And I shall yet hereafter more plainly declare that S. Cyprian, and S. Jerome, whom he hath alleged for the supremacy of one, that is to wit the Bishop of Rome, are of all other writers most clear against him: and that in the very same places by him for his purpose alleged: so that it may be justly marveled, whether M. Dorman were so ignorant, that he should bring those for his witnesses, who dootestifie most against him: or so impudent, that he cared not whom he brought, or what he said, so he might seem to say and bring something, were it never so far from, or so much against his purpose. Dorman. Fol. 5. &. 6. Leo, of whom the whole Council of Chalcedon, as one of the greatest for number: so of all men accounted amongst the four general for authority, reported so honourably, that they did not only with one voice all, openly profess themselves to believe as he did, but called him also, by the name of Sanctissimus et beatissimus, that is most holy and blessed of all other, speaking of the mystical body of Christ's Church writeth after this sort. Haec conn●xio, totius quidem corporis unanimitatem Nowell. This place D. Harding noted out for his scholar. fol. 87. a. ●●istola ad A●●stasium epi●●psi Thessaly. requirit etc. This combination and joining together, [he speaketh of the body of Christ's Church] requireth an unity of the whole body, but especially of the priests, amongst whom although there be one dignity common to them all, yet is there not one general It is clean contrary in all printed books that I have seen. To say: Quibus etsi dignitas non sit coins, est tamen ordo generalis. That is, amongst whom though there be not one dignity common, yet is there one general order. order amongst them all. For even amongst the blessed Apostles in that similitude of honour, was there yet a difference of power: and whereas in their election, they were all like, yet was it given to one, to be above all the rest. Out of which form is taken our difference of Bishops, and by marvelous order and disposition is it provided, that every one should not challenge bishops. to himself every thing, but that in every Province, there should be one, whose judgement amongst the rest of his brethren should be chief, and of most authority. archbishops. And again certain appointed in greater cities whose care should be greater, by whom to the only seat of Peter, the charge of the universal Church Pope. might have recourse, that nothing might at any time descent from the head. Nowell. The Council of Chalcedon professed that they believed as did Leo concerning the most blessed Trinity, & condemned Eutyches heresy: but what is that to the purpose? We profess that we do therein believe as did Leo: and we do like wise condemn the heresy of Eutyches. For that the said Council calleth him Sanctissimum, & beatissimum, the most holy and blessed: what maketh that for his supremacy? All the Priests and deacons of Rome do call S. Cyprian bishop of Carthage, Beatissimum & gloriosissimum papam, the most blessed and most glorious Pope, as I have before noted: and yet I think that M. Dorman will not therefore grant saint Cyprian the supremacy. But what the Council of Chalcedon granted to Leo Bishop of Rome, or is feigned to have granted to him, or what they granted equally with him to Anatholius bishop of Constantinople, and what Leo did like, or mislike, allow, or reject of the said Council: I shall have more convenient place to declare afterwards, where M. Dorman doth more specially entreat of the said council. Now concerning this epistle by M. Dorman alleged, this is first most evident, that the epistles carried about in the names of the first ancient Popes, are either forged, or at the least corrupted by their ambitious successors of later time, to make a show of the antiquity of their challenge of the supremacy: and this to be true is easy to perceive by many circumstances, as shall hereafter at large be declared. But be it, that these be Leos own words, and were this Leo accounted never so holy, yet I trust he being bishop of Rome, may netther be his own witness, nor judge in his own cause of the Pope's supremacy. The holiest and the best men that be, are lightly partial in their own matters. Wherefore Christ our saviour, most worthy of all credit, saith: Si testimonium perhibeam de meipso, testimonium meum non joan. 5. c. 31. est verum. If I bear witness of myself, my testimony is not true: which he saith, for that were his testimony never so true, as it was ever most true, yet being of himself, it would not be taken of men as true, as it appeareth by the words of the Phariseis to our saviour: Tu de te●pso testimonium perhibes etc. Thou joan. 8. b. 13. (say the Phariseis) beareth witness of thyself, thy witness is not true. If Christ's words may not here take place, let the Pope then cause this note to be blotted out of his own canon law also: Papa judex esse non Causa. 16. Quaest. 6. cap. Consuetudo, in scholiis. debet in causa propria: The Pope may not be judge in his own cause. For it standeth there in vain, as it seemeth. To the which yet it appeareth that Pighius in the fift book of his Hierarchy had a respece: for he Lib. 5. cap. 14. fol. 258. b. alleging a Clementine, that is to say a Pope's decree, for his purpose, hath these words. Quum Clementinam audis, nolo imagineris, audire te unius hominis Romani pontificis in sua ipsius causa sententiam, sed cogita te sententiam audire Viennensis concilij, in quo ex universa ecclesia conuenerunt plusquam. 300 episcopi. That is to say, When thou hearest the name of a Clementine, I would not have thee to imagine that thou hearest the judgement of one man, to wit, the bishop of Rome in his own cause: but consider that thou dost hear the Sentence of the Council of Vienne, in the which more then. 300. Bishops were assembled out of the universal Church. Thus far Pighius. Whereby it may seem that he doth not think the Pope's only testimony in his own cause to be sufficient. D. D Harding fol. 76. b. Harding, who doth follow Pighius very much, saith that he will not allege the testimonies of many Popes for the proof of the supremacy, for that we do make, though without all cause (saith he) exception against the pope's, as unlawful witnesses in their own cause. And therefore he is somewhat more shamefast then M. Dorman, and hath only noted this epistle of Pope Leo: which M. Dorman thus largely rehearseth, and with marginal notes so beautifieth, as some special place to prove the Pope's supremacy. As he layeth on load continually, not of popish witnesses, but Popes themselves, witnesses in their own false claim: M. Dorman fol. 63. though he can not dissemble himself in an other place, but that we may make exception unto them, as not indifferent witnesses in their own quarrels. Well, if these causes of exception to Popes in their own cause, which I have alleged, shall not seem to D. Harding, and M. Dorman sufficient, I trust yet that all reasonable indifferent men shall judge them sufficient. And for more reasonable cause of exception to this Leo here, and all other Popes too, in this matter we say: that Zozimus or Sosimus bishop of Rome about a. 24. years before this Leo, moved with an ambitious desire of this supremacy, which the bishops of Rome his successors now strive for, as it were, pro aris & focis, for life and death, as one might say, did corrupt and falsify the decrees of the Nicene Council, pretending that it was decreed in that Council, that the bishop of Rome should be the chief judge, above all other bishops, & that it should be lawful for any man under any other bishop, to appeal to the Bishop of Rome, as to the highest judge over all ecclesiastical persons: and the said Zozimus, as the manner of falsaries is, did counterfeit a decree to that purpose, and put it in writing, and laboured to put it in execution by maintaining one Apiarius, a priest of the diocese called Siccensis in Africa, against his bishop called Vrbanus: which Apiarius being by his said bishop, for his most wicked life excommunicate, appealed to the said Zozimus Bishop of Rome. If ye ask me how I prove that I have said, to wit the said Zozimus Bishop of Rome to be a corrupter, and falsary, I answer, I prove it not by two only, but by two hundredth and xvij good witnesses, the whole Council of Africa, in the which so many Bishops were assembled, and amongst them was saint Augustine, the best learned of all bishops, and equal in virtue and godliness with the best not only of his time, but of all ages, with Orosius, Prosper, and many other bishops notable in learning and virtue. They all, as in their epistle to Celestine one of the successors of this Zozimus appeareth, testify that there was no such matter for the Bishop of Rome's superiority, as was by Pope Zozimus alleged, neither in their usual copies of the Nicene Council, neither in the authentical examples, which were sent them by cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria, and by Atticus, Patriarch of Constantinople: which authenticalles agreeing with their own copies, and all other copies every where, had no such thing as Zozimus alleged, but had the clean contrary: for that the sixth and seventh decree of the said Nicene Council make the patriarchs of Alexandria, Antiochia, and Jerusalem, equal with the bishop of Rome. And the said. 217. Bishops made a decree in Conci. African. circa tempus Bonifacii. 1. cap. 105. that African Council, that no sailing over the Sea with controversies, nor appellations to the Bishop of Rome, nor sending of his Legates lateral into their countries, as judges, should be used: according as by the epistle of the said whole council sent to Pope Celestine Ad Papam Caelestinum urbis Romae episcopum. plainly appeareth. In the inscription of which epistle, they do acknowledge the said Celestine none other, but Bishop of the city of Rome: for this term Papa, Pope, was in those days common to any notable Bishop, of what place so ever he were. For the which it pleased D. Harding to call the Africanes, amongst D. Harding fol. 89. b. whom S. Augustine, Orosius, and Prosper, with many other learned & godly Bishops were, schismatics, as those that submitted not their necks to the Pope: and following Hosius his author, he saith, that Africa Hosius contra Brentium lib. 4. fol. 187. continued in this schism. 100 years: to wit, from Boniface the first, to Boniface the second. And M. Dormans' Dorman. fo. 3. b. & fol. 11. b. judgement is, that all such are out of the state of salvation, and in damnable case, following the judgement of Pope Boniface, who doth say, declare, define & pronounce (for the man as in a matter of weight Extr. comm. lib. 1. De Maior. & obedientia. cap. unam Sanctam. layeth on load of words) that of necessity of salvation, all men must be subject to the Bishop of Rome. But I had rather be a schismatic from that false usurper, with S. Augustine, Orosius, Prosper, and those 217. godly and learned fathers, and with the patriarchs of Alexandria and Constantinople, cyril and Atticus, joining with them in the truth of the Nicene Council (and so being, I thank God, do little fear any damnation, other then to their faggots and fire) then to be with the corrupter and falsary Zozimus, bishop of Rome, a counterfeit catholic, and in deed a false schismatic from Christ, and the truth. Though Hosius goeth about in vain to defend the cause of this corrupter, most impudently going about to prove, that neither in Gréece, nor Africa, nor else where, there was any true copy of the Nicene Council remaining, but only with the Bishop of Rome: which how credible it is, I leave to the discreet reader's judgement. But of this matter M. Dorman giveth me occasion to speak more largely hereafter. After this Zozimus, his successor Bonifacius the first, Celestine the first, with all others almost, following Zozimus steps and ambition, have with tooth and nail striven for this supremacy: and for that purpose did stick still to the falsified Nicene Canon, and have likewise falsified other Councils, in sundry places: and have forged a great many of the epistles now abroad in the names of the old Popes, Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Telesphorus, and other their predecessors, whom they make to write almost of nothing else, but of the prerogative of Peter's chair, the see of Rome: whereas those godly old fathers, ever subject to persecution and death, never thought of any such matters, neither had lust or leisure to occupy their heads and pens about such ambitious matters: as by the true stories of them doth most plainly appear, and shall hereafter at large be declared. And whereas this Leo refused the title of Ecumenical or universal Patriarch given him by the said Council of Chalcedon, and appertaining to him of right, as Pighius saith, though master Pighius, lib. 5. ca 10. fo. 239. b M. Dorman fol. 65. a. Dorman do deny it, there must needs be some error. And it is great marvel that Leo would so ambitiously challenge in his epistle the same title in effect, which he refused so freely offered unto him by the whole Council. And it may seem that if the Pope's judgement be above the Council, as Pighius doth teach, the Council did err, in giving him such a title: and if the Council in this point did well, as Pighius saith, but M. Dorman denieth, either the Pope should have received the said title offered, or not have claimed the like of those, who would not gladly grant it unto him. Wherefore I trust no reasonable man will disallow our exceptions to such witnesses in their own cause. Yet besides these causes of most just exceptions to this Pope, and all other Popes in their own cause of their falsely usurped supremacy, I will go otherwise to work with M. Dorman. I say that Leo here, (be it these be his words, which yet is in controversy) saith untruly. If M. Dorman ask how I prove it? I would first ask him whether he hath truly translated this place? And if he have, how he can make these words in this epistle, there is one dignity common to all Bishops, to agree with these following: there is difference of power amongst them, and it is given to one to be above all the rest, whose judgement is of most authority, and how this man is not in dignity differing from the rest? And if master Dorman think he can well enough frame this jar: I say further, I will prove the sayings of Leo untrue, by two witnesses, against this one: by indifferent witnesses, against this partial witness in his own cause: by witnesses without and above all exception, against this witness, unto whom so many and so just exceptions may be taken. I will prove (I say) his own witness of himself false, and M. Dorman too, by M. Dormans' own witnesses, saint Cyprian, and saint Jerome brought in by himself for the proof of his part: and that which is more, I will prove it by the very same places of saint Cyprian and saint Jerome, which are by Doctor Harding, and master Dorman here alleged: that is to say, by the third epistle of the first book of the epistles of saint Cyprian, and by the epistle of saint Jerome to Euagrius. And I doubt not, but as of his three witnesses brought for him, one is no witness (but such as if one would say ask myself whether I be a thief, or no) so the other two witnesses, who be most worthy credit, shall prove my cause true, I trust, and master Dorman a very liar. Wherein I do thus proceed. First, I will Lib▪ 1. epist. 3. pagin. 10. put the reader in remembrance yet once again, of Saint Cyprians own words before touched, written in the same epistle by master Dorman alleged, which are these: Cum statutum sit omnibus nobis, etc. which may be thus translated: whereas an order is taken or statute made amongst us all, and it is also reasonable and right, that every man's cause be there heard, where the fault was committed: and whereas a portion of the flock is assigned to every bishop by himself, which every one ought to rule and govern, and must give an account of his doings to the Lord: these which be under our governance ought not therefore to run about (to wit, from one Bishop to an other) neither to break the agreeable concord of Bishops by their guileful temerity or rashness, but aught there to make answer in their causes, where they may have accusers, & witnesses of their crimes, except it seem to a few desperate, and cast away persons, that the authority of the bishops that be in Africa is less, than the authority of others, which Bishops have already given judgement of them: their cause is already heard, sentence is already pronounced against them: neither doth it agree to the grave judgement of Bishops, to be blamed of the levity of a movable and inconstant mind: whereas our Lord doth say, Let your speech be, yea, yea: no, no. Thus far saint Cyprian, M. dorman's own witness, even in the same epistle by himself alleged. And this sentence of saint Cyprian touching the determining of controversies in the places where they do rise, and that no appellations shallbe made to any bishop of an other Province, yea and that namely not to the Bishop of Rome, nor that he shall send any Legates Lateral to hear or determine foreign matters, doth the whole Carthaginense council approve and allow: wherein was saint Augustine, Drosius, and Prosper, with. 217. more learned and godly Bishops assembled, as I have before noted. The same saint Cyprian ever agreeing with himself in this verity of the equality of all bishops, (which is the overthrow of the supremacy of one) doth apply many such places of the scriptures, as are customarelie, but most falsely alleged now a days by this author, and other adversaries for the proof of the pope's supremacy over all Bishops, to the declaration of the equal authority of every Bishop in his own diocese, as the place of Deuteronomium concerning Deuter. 17. the obedience due to the high Priest: out of Numerie, of the disobedience of Chore, Dathan, and Abyron against Numeri. 16. Aaron: out of the Acts of the Apostles touching Saint Paul's words: I wist not that he was the Act. 23. high Bishop, for it is written, thou shalt not speak evil to the prince of thy people. All these places, I say, doth saint Cyprian allege for the authority of Rogatian Cyprianus lib. 3. epist. 9 an African Bishop, and against the disobedience of the said Rogatians oeacon against his bishop. And the same places doth saint Cyprian likewise again Cyprianus lib. 4. epist. 9 in an other place allege for his own authority, being Bishop of Carthage, and against the stubborness of Pupianus towards himself. So that saint Cyprian doth in all places maintain the equality of bishops, and withal overthrow the supremacy of one over all, directly against this place by you, as out of Pope Leo, alleged. But in no place is saint Cyprian more effectuous and piaine concerning this matter, then in his book entitled De simplicitate praelatorum: where he hath these words: Dnnsapostolis oimbus post resurrectionem suam, parem potestatem tribuit. & mox: Hoc erant utique & caeteri apostoli, quod fuit Petrus, pari consortio praediti, & honoris & potestatis. That is to say. The Lord after his resurrection did give like orequall power to all his Apostles. The other Apostles were the veric same, that Peter was, being endued with like fellowship, both of honour and power. Thus far saint Cyprian: who being in so many places so directly against this usurped supremacy of one, and for the equality of all Bishops, it is to be wondered with what face M. Dorman hath been so bold and busy with S. Cyprian in this his treaty of the pope's supremacy. Now let us hear S. Jerome, M. Dorman his second witness: and even in the same epistle by M. Dorman alleged also. Where Saint Jerome speaking of the authority of Churches and Bishops, and making them all equal, and none above an other, hath these words. Nec altera Romanae urbis ecclesia, altera totius orbis estimanda est etc. We may not think that the Church of the city of Rome is one, and the Church of the whole world an other. Both France and Britain (now called England) Africa and Persie land, the East countries, and Indie, and all barbarous nations worship one Christ, and observe one rule of truth. If you seek for authority, the world is greater Maior est orbis authoritas quam urbis. than the city (of Rome): wheresoever any bishop is, whether he be at Rome, or Eugubium: at Constantinople, or at Rhegium: at Alexandria, or Tanis: he is of the same merit, of the same priesthood. The power of riches, or baseness of poverty maketh not a bishope either higher or lower. But they be all the successors of the Apostles. But thou wilt say, how do they at Rome a● the testimony of the deacon ordain the priest: What doest thou allege to me the custom of one city: what doest thou challenge for the laws of the Church the usage of a few, whereof presumption hath risen: Thus far saint Jerome. Upon the which place Erasmus in his Scholies noteth that Eugubium, Rhegium, and Tanis were base and little towns, and that saint Jerome matcheth in pairs and couples a poor & simple Frigidum opidulum. little town, with a noble city: to she we thereby that the dignity of the Bishop is not esteemed by the greatness of his diocese or city, but that all bishops be equal in office. Now let us compare these two, saint Cyprian I say, and saint Jerome bearing witness with the truth, with Leo only bearing witness to himself. Leo saith, In the holy Apostles themselves there was a difference of power, and that it was given to one to be above all the rest. On the contrary part S. Cyprian saith, The Lord gave like and equal authority to all his Apostles: all the Apostles be endued with like fellowship, both of honour, and power. Thus saith S. Cyprian in his book entitled De simplicitate praelatorum, Of the simplicitis of priests: noting them as double faced prelate's, that teach, or attempt the contrary. Again Leo saith: Out of this form is taken our difference of Bishops, that in every Province one be chief and of most authority, and the bishop of greater cities to have greater care, and consequently that he who sitteth in Peter's chair, should have charge, & be head of the universal Church. Thus saith Leo: and thus he saith, because he himself would be Lord and head over all the church. S. Cyprian saith: Every bishop hath his several portion of Christ's flock to rule and govern, for the which he must give an account unto the Lord. And that those, who are under the charge of the bishop of one country, may not appeal to a bishop of an other: nor the cause determined by one Bishop, may be called in question before an other: for that the authority of one Bishop is not inferior to an other: nor the authority of the bishop of Africa is less, than the authority of the bishops of Italy, or Rome itself (for his words have evidently that relation) and that none think the authority of one bishop to be less than the authority of an other bishop, but a few wicked and desperate men. Thus you see how your own witnesses are at square, and there is, yea, and nay between this your Leo, and S. Cyprian in these matters. S Jerome, agreeing with S. Cyprian, saith: All church's worshipping one Christ, and observing one rule of truth, are equal with the church of Rome: all bishops be the successors of the Apostles, and of one priesthood, and of the same merit and dignity. Thus saith S. Jerome. But Leo saith contrary: that it was given to one to be above all the rest, & that they, who be appointed in greater dioceses or cities, have more care and authority: and that th' only see of Peter hath charge of the universal Church, & is head thereof. Thus saith Leo. S. Jerome saith: The less diocese or town, or the poorer estate maketh not the bishop lower, or less in authority: the greater province, the greater city, the greater riches make not a Bishop greater in authority. And though Leo do make never so much of Rome, and set it above the universal Church: S. Jerome saith, Th'authority of the universal church is greater, than the authority of the church of Rome, as the world is greater, than the city of Rome. And he saith further: What doest thou allege me the use of the one city of Rome for a law of the church, whereof riseth presumption of a few against all men? I think the fire and water are not of more contrary nature, then are S. Cyprian and S. Jerome contrary to that epistle alleged by M. Dorman, as Leo the Pope's epistle: nor that any witnesses brought against a man by his adversary, ever have more directly testified against him, than these two witnesses, S. Cyprian and saint Jerome brought in by D. Harding and M. Dorman for them, do testify against them, even in the very places by themselves alleged: besides their consonancy with themselves in all other places, and the consent of S. Augustine and two hundredth and more Bishop's agrecing with them, against this Leo. What should one judge of these men, bringing in together three witnesses, of the which two are moste directly against them, and against the third also, who alone seemeth to make with them: & that third, as in his own cause, to be suspected: and further to be doubted also, whether it be he in deed, or an other under his name: and such as he is, the words of his testimony either manifestly falsified, or else at the least in divers copies being not only divers, but clean contrary? as having in one copy, it is so, in an other (if M. Dorman slept not) it is not so. And yet both these, impossible both to be true, be one man's testimony, of one and the same matter, and in one and the same place also. Were these men so blind that they did not see this, or so shameless that seeing, and knowing, they durst yet allege such witnesses for them? So blind buzzards they took all men in the world, saving themselves, to be. Surely me thinketh it to be an hard case, and a silly shameless shift, for men to be driven to allege those authors, and to bring those witnesses for them, whose testimonies do thus convict them, and quite overthrow their cause, and withal shame them utterly. And very miserable is the Pope and Popery, being driven now at the last to the patrociny of such proctors, who opening and bewraiing the weakness of the grounds and foundations thereof, so long time heretofore, by ignorance of the world, judged sure, will themselves bring all Popery, being already of itself ruinous, to speedy and utter destruction. For the which also all godly, and such as love the truth have great cause to give God great and hearty thanks, for that (these causes as desperate, being forsaken of almost all learned & grave men) M. Dorman, with such other as he is, have thus taken them in hand, and that such lewd matters have found at the Similes habent labra lactucas. proctors and patrons most meet for them. Dorman. Fol. 6. Hitherto have you hard good readers, beside the experience that we have of civil policy, and worldly government, the opinions also of saint Cyprian, saint Jerome, and holy Leo, all three agreeing in one, that there must needs be one judge in Christ's church in his steed, that the health of the church dependeth Cyprian. upon the authority of the chief Priest, that if his authority be not above all the rest, there will so many Hierom. Schisms break in upon us as there be Priests, that for the avoiding of that mischief, there was one chosen even amongst the Apostles, to govern the rest: Leo. Last of all, that that usage in Chris●es church to have one head, is no new invention [as some men falsely report] but taken from the example of the Apostles themselves. Nowell. Hitherto have you heard, good readers, how of the experience of civil policy and worldly government, wherein every several country, city, and company, have their several Princes, rulers, and heads, master Dorman would moste loudly gather, that all churches dispersed in all countries, cities, towns, villages, nations, peoples, and languages (impossible to be known, and more impossible to be governed, but of Christ only, the only head of that universality) should have one only head here in earth. You have heard also, how ignorantly (if he did not understand) how shamelessly (if he did understand) he hath alleged S. Cyprian, and S. Jerome for him, being, both in all other places universally, and in the very special places also by him alleged, most evidently against him, and that most falsely usurped supremacy of the pope. You have heard how contrary his witnesses be, two against one: and that one either not so writing, as is alleged by M. Dorman, but falsified, or forged as so writing, by the Popes comen corrupters and falsaries of all writers, and writings: or if so writing, yet unworthy credit even by his own law, as partial in his own cause: and otherwise to be suspected, for that his testimony is in divers copies found not only divers, but clean contrary: unless M. Dorman thought he might put in and out, this word (non, not) as a little syllable, and nothing material, at his pleasure. And further, the said witness (who so ever he be) being but one, is confuted as you have heard, by the veredicte of two witnesses most worthy of creadite, brought in with him, for testimony of the same matter. You see therefore not only no necessity, but an impossibility of such an one only head, aswell of the church dispersed throughout all the world, as of one only king, or prince of all the world itself. You see there was no such opinion, much less knowledge of any such head, amongst the Apostles, or in the primitive church, but that it is a new devilish devise of the late ambitious Bishops of Rome: who when they were never able yet hitherto well to rule the church of Rome one city (as by all histories and experience is evident) would yet of the world usurp the superiority, & supremacy. And if S. Paul didthinke he was not meet to have charge of one Church, who 1. Timot. 3. Si quis autem domui suae praeesse nescit, quomodo ecclesiam Dei curabit? could not well govern his own house: of what monstrous ambition and presumption is he trow you, who, never yet able to govern one peculiar church, doth claim, and would take upon him the regiment of all churches throughout the whole world? Whereas he is not able, were he thereto required, to tell the only names of a small part of the said churches, neither knoweth in what part of the world, a great many of them be. Dorman. fol. 6. I can not hear stay, to examine curioussie every word in these ancient fathers, but leaving that good readers to your discretion, and not doubting but that in these grave witnesses, in a matter of such weight & importance, as whereupon dependeth the health of the whole Church: you will be no less diligent, than you would be in examining the depositions of your own witnesses, or your adversaries in a trial of lands, or other temporal commodity. Nowell. M. Dorman is in haste, and lacketh leisure for the examination of these matters: there is some play belike towards, and his par●e therein the busiest of all other: and therefore you must examine these witnesses yourselves, and that with more diligence, than you would do in controversies about lands, or worldie matters. Now surely M. Dorman, a little examination will serve to try out, that you, and all your fellow collectors and overseers of this book, were either of haste shamefully overseen, or so ignorant, that you could not see, though you had had good leisure: or moste impudent and shameless (so that you cared nothing, what or how you did write, so it were some thing) or else all three together. And had you done well, you should all have bestowed your leisure and cunning together, in some one piththie book (if any thing can be piththilie written of such lewd and trifling matters, as you take in hand to maintain) rather then by lancing out such havoc of books (like to this yours, and most meet for you) in post pace, as though all speed were in the haste, only to get for the time the commendation of celerity and readiness, either of your fanourers, altogether blinded with partiality, or of such undiscrete readers, as delight most, in most trifles: and withal to obtain a perpetual note and blot of great ignorance, mixed with more shamelesseness and impudency, in the opinions of all wise and learned men. For it will fall out (M. Dorman) that you alone shall be more able to write, and send us over a dozen such books at this is, by the leisure and faculty that you have, sufficient enough thereto, then D. Harding and you, with all your adherentes, shall be able to maintain one little parcel of this your, or his book, as truly and sincerely written. So muck harder it is, either to write a little well, and truly, or to defend a little, of much written lightly and falsely: then to write never so many, and so great books, both lightly, lewdly, and falsely too: such as, I trust, it shall appear to the world, this book (named worthily yours) is in deed, M. Dorman. Dorman. fol. 6. I shall proceed to the consideration of the second reason, which before I touched, of the people of Is●ael, if I first warn you to consider but this by the way Nowell. Borrowed out of Hosius li. 1. contra Brentium, fol. 1. a. 5 6. etc. And out of Pighius de Hierarch. lib. 6. cap 13 fol. 325. d. etc. [that ye may trust those ancient fathers by their word the better an other time] how many schisms be burst in upon us in our country of England, for one common received truth in the days of our father's [when we remained in the obedience of one chief priest and judge] which shake now so miserably the same: how quietly in one love, in one truth, in one doctrine, in one Church, in one head thereof God almighty, and his minister under him appointed over the same, welived then, and other in other places do now. Nowell. Yet for all the haste M. Dorman hath, he will by the way warn you to credit the ancient fathers by him alleged. The same do we also desire of the discreet readers, that they will credit those ancient fathers, who, though alleged by M. Dorman, being directly against him, do declare that he is worthy of no creadite at all. And he doth unjustly charge England specially with so many schisms: where it is well known, that there is as much consent in true doctrine in the church of England at this time, as ever was in any realm at any time. And though there were not a perfect consent of all men in all points, what marvel yet were it, if that should happen amongst us, which was not altogether lacking amongst the Apostles themselves? Let the contention between Paul and Peter, and between Paul again & Barnabas, be a proof thereof. What wonder if that were amongst us touching some points, that was not wanting in the primitive church amongst the old fathers? a Histor. Eccl. Rufini, lib. 1. cap. 2. Let the variance amongst the bishops assembled at Nicene council: b Euseb. de vita Constant. li. 3. Socr. li. 1. ca 8. Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 16. let the contention between the bishops of the east and of the West church about the keeping of Easter day, a matter not worthy of such variance, be a witness thereof. c Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 9 & 10. etc. Let the sharp contention between S. Chrysostom, and Theophilus bishop of Alexandria, and Epiphanius bishop of Cyprus, d In epistolis Hieron. ad Augustinum. the bitter strife between S. Jerome and S. Augugustine, e Hiero. tom. 2. in Apolegia & al●●s li. contra R●finum. and between the said S. Jerome again and Rufine, f Euseb. His●o. li. 10. ca 5. etc. & vitae Constant lib. 4. and like contentions between the best men of all ages, testify the same. What needeth much repetition of antiquities? As though it were unknown what contentions have ever been amongst the Papists themselves, as between the canonists and school doctors: between Scotus and Thomas: between Alliacensis and Occam: and of late time between Catetanus and Pighius: and as though at this present time all Papists agreed amongst themselves in the principal points of their religion: where they (as shall in place convenient be declared) do exceadingly not only vary, but repugn one against an other. And what be these names, Thomists, Scotistes, Nominalles, and reals, but names of schisms? What be these Benedictines, Cistertians, Carmelites, Chartusians, Dominicans, Franciscans, with others like an huge number, but names of Popish schisms & sects? Who all forsaking the religion and name of Christ common to all true christians, have chosen to be called religious, as by a special name of a several religion, and to be named after men their fathers on earth, forsaking Math. 23. a. 9 the heavenly father, and continuing and accomplishing the schism first begun in S. Paul's time, after the example of those, who said, I am of Paul, 1. Corin. 1. b. 13 I of Cephas, I of Apollo: saying, I am of Dominike, I of benedict, I of Francise, who also may directly answer S. Paul asking, was Paul or any other, saving only Christ, crucified for you? Yea, may the franciscans say, S. Francise was crucified for us of his family, and behold the wounds in his side, hands and feet. If S. Paul ask again, is jesus Christ divided? Yea, may a false hypocrite one of the sect of the jesuits say: for we have th'one part of jesus, thereof called jesuits, and have left the other part Christ, to the seely souls abroad, to hold themselves contented therewith, and with the name of christians thereof derived. Why, is jesus one then, and Christ an other? Be there two Christ's then, or one divided into two? One of these must needs be: else if jesus Christ be not two, but one, (as he is most certainly one) and being not divided (as he most certainly is whole) then are you jesuits, were your religion good, nothing else but Christians: then are all Christians jesuits also: then do● you in vain brag of a several name of religion, if your and our religion be one. But if your religion be hypocrisy, (as it is in deed) then have you stirred up an horrible schism, dividing and cutting the glorious name of jesus Christ, in the which only is salvation: yea tearing Christ himself in pieces, infinitely more wickedly and cruelly, then ever did the wicked soldiers that crucified Christ, who had a remorse to cut his coat asunder. And least all these sects of hypocrites should not be known sufficiently by only diversity of names, they have by other infinite ways and means iraveiled to sever their sects asunder, studying for division as for the best, and flying all show of unity as the worst of all things. Wherefore to their diversity of names, they have joined diversity of fashions, and diversity of colours in their apparel, diversity of girdles, hose, and shoes: diversity of shaving, diversity of going, becking and bowing, diversity of diet and meats, diversity of reading, singing, and tuning, diversity of Church service, and diversity of rules of life. All times would fail me, if I should, or could rehearse all their diversities, which is the very property of schisms and sects. These be those schismatics, and sectaries, with an infinite multitude whereof, of late England was replenished, of the which now, thanks be to God, the realm is well rid: so that if you meet a thousand men and women one after an other severally, and ask of them, of what religion be you? They shall all and every one answer you, I am a christian, we be all christians: there shall not one answer to you (as was wont under your head) I am of the religion of S. Francisce, a Franciscane: an other, I am a Dominicane: the third, I am a Carmelite. Et sic de singulis. One woman shall not answer you, I am a Brigittine: an other, I am a Clarane: the third, I am a Beguine, which are all names of abominable sects and schisms, not only dividing, but denying, but forgetting, but rejecting the religion and name of jesus Christ, and choosing the names and religion of sinful sinners, and counterfeit hypocrites most wicked, and so much the more wicked, for that they cloaked their wickedness under names of holiness & religion. These so divers sects of false religion being well abandoned now out of England, and the one true religion of our saviour jesus Christ only here remaining: I marvel with what face you can charge us with schisms and sects, which is your own special sore? And where you warn the readers upon experience of the multitude of schisms lately risen, sithen the forsaking of that one Popish head, to creadite the ancient fathers as witnessing with you against us: you might as justly warn them to creadite the ancient Phariseis, rather than Christ and his Apostles: both for that the first heresy, as S. Augustine saith, sprang amongst August. in Psal. 54. Prima heresis in discipulis Christi facta est etc. joan. 6. 1. Cori. 1. b. 13. the disciples of Christ, many of them departing from him upon the occasion of his preaching, seeming to them to be heard: and also for that in the Apostles time some used such schismatical sayings, as these: We hold of Paul: some other, we hold of Cephas: the third sort, we hold of Apollo: whereas there was no such dissension amongst the high priests and Phariseis, but great unity and concord amongst them against Christ's Apostles: and again for that divers Irenaeus contra haereses lib. 1. August. lib. de haeresibus. greater schisms of the Nicolaites, the Symonians, the Cerinthians, the Menandrians, the Saturninians, the Carpocratians, the Basilidians, with an huge number more, did rise with, and shortly after the first preaching of the Gospel, as darnel secretly sown by the enemy, springeth up with the good corn sown by the husbandman: and specially for that great schism, which Christ and his Apostles made from the high Priests and their Church, which S. Paul made against the Phariseis, whom, he (being brought up from his childhood amongst them) did so schismatically forsake, and cleave unto Christ their adversary. Whereupon in steed of great quietness in one doctrine, and traditions of their fathers, of great love amongst all Priests and Phariseis throughout all jury and the whole jewish church before, did follow great divisions, & trubles did arise, not only in jury, but shortly after over all the world. Whereof our savour Christ Math. 27. Luc. 23. joan. 7. Act. 5. 17. 24. &. 28. himself was accused, as appeareth in the history of the Gospel: and S. Paul with other the Apostles, were likewise accused, as is to be seen in the Acts of the Apostles: and in like manner the whole christian religion, was in the primitive Church of all enemies both derided, as divided into many schisms and sects (as Euseb. hist. Eccl. lib. 10. cap. 5. & vitae Constan. li. 4. Socrates hist. Eccl. lib. 1. cap. 6. & lib. 3. cap. 24. & multis locis. doth by histories ecclesiastical appear) and also charged as the cause of all mischiefs and troubles, that overwhelmed the world, as by * Origenes contra Celsum. August. de Civitate Dei. Ambrose, & Prudentius contra Symmachum. Origen, saint Augustine, S. Ambrose, Aurelius Prudentius and other Christian writers, answering that false slander, is most evident to be seen. And as justly might you charge the Apostles and their doctrine with those schisms, sects, and troubles, as you do charge us with these that have risen in our days. Where it is well known to the world, that our learned men have by their writings more oppugned and repressed the said sects, than all the Papists have done. In deed we must needs confess a truth: that whiles we all remained under the quiet obedience of your romish head, in one doctrine of his traditions, there was a coloured kind of quietness, concord, and love amongst all the members of that one head, the subjects of that one governor and ruler, and specially amongst the clergy of that one church: who had in possession the riches and rule of the world, with not only quietness, but thanks also of them that were both oppressed and rob. So blinded were they with ignorance, the mother of such devotion, brought in by the said Popish clergy, by hiding in unknown tongues, and withdrawing of the light of God's word, which should have shined, and guided our steps better. But when that Christ the author of that light, as he himself, and by his Apostles bewrayed the errors of the jewish traditions by the said light first springing, & withal troubled their unity & concord in the doctrine of such traditions, and their quietness in their synagogue so settled before: so now the same our saviour in the time by his wisdom appointed (who of his goodness would not suffer us seely straiing sheep to wander in darkness of such errors, nor of his justice could suffer your head the Pope with his adherentes to deceive his people any longer) by the same light of his holy word again springing & shining to us sitting in such palpable darkness, and in the shadow of death, hath disclosed, that your head and you, for the maintenance of his and your father's false traditions, have obscured, hidden, broken, and forbidden the law of God our heavenly father: and shining before us, hath exhorted us to follow and walk in the said light, and hath warned us to forsake both your doctrine, and works of darkness. By this occasion is there risen a like schism between you and us, as was between S. Paul and the Phariseis, with whom he was brought up from his childhood before. By this occasion of the light, your great gain and riches maintained by the darkness of ignorance, and devotion of seely souls deceived, suffering themselves to be rob, is decayed: as was the gain of Image makers, shrine makers, and other Act. 19 c. 2●. artificers of superstition in Ephesus, by the preaching of S. Paul. By this means is your quietness troubled, your rest interrupted, your good cheer marred, your pomp abated, your estimation decayed, and the yoke of your tyranny shaken of our necks. This maketh your romish head and you cry, as you do, and bark against us, as heretics, and schismatics, as did the high priest, and other jewish priests and Phariseis cry out against Christ and his Apostles. This maketh your head and you to persecute us most cruelly, and to adjudge us to death, as did your ancient fathers persecute and judge Christ, and his Apostles. If this be to make schisms, we confess ourselves schismatics from you, who have first made your selves schismatics from Christ, and his Apostles. To whom as we doubt not but we have joined ourselves in the truth of his Gospel, so have you in deed in persecuting of us for professing Christ's Gospel, and the doctrine of his Apostles, joined yourselves with the old synagogue of Satan, and the jewish Priests and Phariseis: who for the same cause persecuted Christ and his Apostles to death most cruelly. But if that you could with us embrace the truth of Christ's Gospel, & walk with us jointly in the light of his word, there should be more true quietness, as well of consciences, as of bodies, more sincere love, more godly unity, peace & joy, than ever there was wordly quietness, love, & joy in the darkness of Popery. Which because you refuse to do, despising the peaceable ways of the Lord, you are guilty of all these schisms and troubles, and not we. And so finally for this part of purgation of ourselves against your slanders of schisms and troubles, as by us raised, do we allege the effect of the same Parable of the strong man so Luc. II. c. 21. etc. quiet in his house, until a stronger than he came, and disturbed him, which Christ our saviour in like slander rehearsed for defence of himself. If the reader shall think that I have been to tedious in answering this matter here but touched by M. Dorman, as it were by the way, I trust he will bear with me therein, for that M. Dorman as he began and flourished the first face of his book, with blotting us by this slander of In front libri ex Augu. contra Peulianun, de quo vide b. 3 statim post praefacionem. schisms, so hath he hitherto continued in the same, and applied all his allegations out of S. Cyprian, basil, Jerome, Nicephorus and others, chiefly to that purpose: and omitteth not in every other leaf hereafter, importunately to repeat the same: following therein Eckius, Pighius, Hosius, and generally all the adversaries that speak or write against us, who do most vehemently and continually burden us with the crimes of schisms and fectes, and of the disturbance of the quiet state of the church, and world: at their pleasure terming us Heretics, Schismatics, huguenots, Caluinians, Lutherans, and zwinglians. Neither are they contented herewith, but do also play with pictures very pleasantly, as they think, in the which they paint out a multitude of such heretics or rebels, as our confederates or allies, whose opinions we do most abhor, and against whom we continually both preach and write. And all this do they, for that they are not ignorant that such, though most false slanders, being yet so importunelie and continually laid to our charge, are of much effect to offend the minds of the weak and simple, & to stir up their hatred against us. And therefore they use such constant asseverations for arguments, as in their schools they are taught to do, when they are destitute of due proofs, which hath also caused me for the simplear sorts sake once at large to answer, and earnestly to repel that false usual slander of schisms & troubles laid upon us by those, who are themselves most guilty thereof. For I trust that no reasonable reader will think us to be such, only for that it pleaseth them maliciously so to misname us, and only to say we be such: seeing their tongues and pens are their own to use as they list, and not in our power. For, as we have no religion but only Christ's, so desire we to be called after the names of none but his, & as we be, so to be named christians: and being Christians, we care not to be called heretics, of heretics: or schismatics, of schismatics: such as in deed our adversaries bèe. Think they that if we list and had leisure, as they have, we could not frame an arbour or tree, twice as great as they have devised? Would not the Popes with their triple crowns, cross keys, & cross swords, whereof sundry were heretics: the fat fed Monks, and lean faced Friars, the nice Nuns, the seely sir Ihons' soul priests and other, with their diversities of schismatical names chosen to themselves, Christ and his name being forsaken, with the diversities of apparel, of cowls, colours, meats, Church service, rules of life, and infinite more diversities, with the Pope's Bulls (whereby such sects were either founded or confirmed) displayed bannerlike upon the several arms and branches of the tree, where such sects shall severally sit: would not, think you, this gear furnish the said tree far more fully and truly too, then is M. Stapletons' Staphilus forged plant, in the which he hath placed such as are to us most strangers, as next of our kin and blood: whereas I am sure, that the Pope can make no exception to any one of this shameful rabble, that I speak of, why he should not be placed in the arbour of Popish schismatics? Wherefore I conclude that your crime of schisms, most falsely laid to our charge, may most truly, justly, and plentifully be reversed upon your own heads. Dorman. Fol. 7. But to proceed. For the estate of the jews, God by Nowell. Borrowed of Pigh. Hierare. lib. 4. cap. 3. fol. 149. b. c. And Hosius lib. 2. contra Brentium, fol. 59 a. b. his servant Moses did so provide, to take away schisms that upon the doubtful words of the law might arise, that he appointed them a place to resort unto, and a judge to fly unto, in all such ambiguities and doubts. For so is it written in the book of Deuteronomium. Cap. 17. And shall we not by good reason think, that he hath provided as well for his church? Except we will say, that he hath been less careful of it, than he was of that. Which must necessarily follow, if he provided for them one chief judge, to have recourse unto in hard and doubtful questions, and to us having no less, yea far much more need than they: he left either at all none, or many to make the matter more doubtful. Nowell. Concerning this place of Deuteronomium alleged by M. Dorman, these circumstances are to be noted: First, that the high priest must be in a Deut. 17. b. 8. Ascend ad locum, quem elegerit Dn̄s. the place which God hath chosen, which they can never prove to be Rome, more than any other bishops see. secondarily this priest must be of the b b. 9 Veniesque ad sacerdotes. Levitici generis, & ad judicem qui fuerit in illo tempore. levitical sort, which the Pope doth deny himself to be. thirdly the place is doubtful, whether the whole determination do pertain to one, or to c c. 10. Et facies quod cumque dixerit qui praesunt loco, etc. many: for it is written: thou shalt come to the priests of the levitical sort, and thou shalt do whatsoever they say, and thou shalt follow their sentence. And again: He that will not obey the priest, let him die by the decree of the d c 12. Nolens obedire sacerdo tis imperio, exdecreto judicis morietur. judge: so that the judge of the nation seemeth in this case to have to do ●oinctlie with the priests. Fourthly it is requisite that the said priests or priest do teach, or judge according to the e c. 10. Fancies quod cunque dixerint & doeverint, juxta legem eius. law of God, and not at his own pleasure, as the old translation hath in that place: against the which though * Pigh. Hiera. lib. 4. cap. 3. Fol. 149. b. Hosius lib 2. contra Brentium. fol. 59 ●. Pighius, and Hosius do quarrel, yet it is certain if the high priest do against the law of God, both doth f Act. 23. 2. 3. saint Paul threaten unto him God's vengeance: and g Act. 4. d. 18. saint Peter also and saint John the Apostles, called before the high priest, and commanded not to preach any more in the name of jesus, for that this last condition of commanding after God's law, was here lacking, did say: An justum sit in conspectu dei vos potius audire quam deum, judicate etc. That is to say: judge you whether it be right in the sight of God to hear you, rather than God: for we can not but speak the things which we have seen and heard. Thus answered the Apostles. And neither did the high● priest himself, nor any of the Scribes or Phariseis present, for that disobedince, charge them as guilty of death. But M. Dorman, as it appeareth, doth think that neither Aaron for that he was high Priest, and therefore could not err belike, did not amiss in commanding the people to deliver their golden earrings, and in making Exod 32. the golden Calffe thereof, and in building an altar for it, and wo●rshippyng it: and that if any of the people had disobeyed him, commanding them to deliver their said earrings to the making thereof, they had offended for so disobeiing the voice and commandment of the high priest: Neither that Urias the high Priest in committing Idolatry did offend, but was therein as high Priest to be followed. And for the same respect peradventure M. Dorman will prefer Caiphas, for that he was high Priest, before Christ: and Ananias before saint Paul: and with Hosius will Hosius lib. 2. contra Bren●ium. fol. 54. b hold that the verity or truth of judgement was with Caiphas, and the other wicked judges, against Christ: and that Ananias commanding Paul to be stricken did well, and was not in his commandment to be disobeyed: and that the commandment of the high Priest forbidding Peter and John to preach Christ, was to be obeyed: And generally that all the accusations, testimonies, judgements, and doings of the high Priests against Christ and his Apostles were true, and right. For thus must M. Dorman judge of these things: or else make his high Priest of necessity subject to the obedience of God's law, before he do make all men of necessity subject to his commandment, as an inviolable law. These things well considered may easily inform the reader, that the Pope's tyranny to say and do what he list, can not be grounded upon this place of Deuteronomium: and that if the Pope or any creature do command against God's word, he may and ought to be disobeyed therein: And that therefore both Pighius and M. Dorman have in vain alleged this place, for any such supremacy as the Pope claimeth. And further whatsoever M. Dorman, either out of Deuteronomium, or any other place of scripture, doth untruly apply to the proof of the supremacy of one head, to wit, the bishop of Rome: the same doth S. Cyprian, M. dorman's own usual witness, every where allege for the proof of the superiority of every bishop in his own diocese, and for the obedience due unto him there. He doth never apply it, as doth M. Dorman, to the supremacy of one bishop over all other, but rather against such supremacy of one. And it agreeth very well with the estate of the jews, that as they being one nation had one chief priest, so is it good likewise that every christian nation have their chief priest or Bishop. It agreeth not, that because the jews one nation had one high priest to govern them in doubts, therefore all nations throughout the world should have one high Priest over all other. For not only the unlikelihood between these two, but the impossibility of the later is most evident. But now let us hear S. Cyprian in his epistle to Rogatianus. Lib. 3. epist. 9 Habes [inquit Cyprianus] circa huiusmodi homines praecepta divina, cùm Dominus deus in Deuteronomio dicat▪ Et homo quicunque etc. Thou hast (saith saint Cyprian to Rogatianus his fellow bishop in Africa) concerning such men (to wit disobedient, as was his Deacon) the commandments of God, whereas the Lord God in Deuteronomie doth say: Deuter. 17. And what man so ever shall be so proud, that he will not hear the priest or judge, who so ever he be in those days, that man shall die, and all the people shall fear, and shall do wickedly no more. And we may know that this voice of God proceeded with true and great majesty, to honour and to avenge his Priests, by the horrible destruction of Chore, Dathan, and Abyron, who rebelled against Aaron. Thus far S. Cyprian. Where you may see that both this law of Deuteronomium, the example of Aaron, the estate of the jewish Church, and all other places of scripture falsely wrested by D. Harding and M. Dorman to the proof of the supremacy of one, to wit, the bishop of Rome, are by S. Cyprian (who died an holy martyr, and is no doubt a saint in heaven) applied to the maintenance of every Bishop's authority in his own diocese, and the obedience there due unto him. And note withal that S. Cyprian saith, that this and like places of the scriptures, appertain to the honour of Gods Prtestes: he saith not, to the honour of one high priest, head over all other. Nay he confesseth in the beginning of this epistle, that Rogatianus did but of courtesy, & not of duty refer this matter of his disobedient deacon by complaint to S. Cyprian (though he were the Metropolitan of Africa, being bishop of Carthage the chief city thereof) and granteth that Rogatianus by the vigore of his bishopric, & authority of his Chair, had power to order the matter himself: and for the vigore of this Rogatianus bishopric, and authority of his chair, and consequently of all other bishoprics, and bishops chairs, doth S. Cyprian allege these and all other places of scripture, falsely detorted by the Papists to these of Rome, and saint Peter's chair there, as they call it. Saint Cyprian allegeth the same place Lib. 4. epist. 9 of Deutero. cap. 17. and all such like, for his own authority, against Pupianus despising him being Bishop of Carthage, whom saint Cyprian chargeth to transgress this law of God of obeying the high priest, for that he maketh himself, Episcopum episcopi, & judicem judicis, ad tempus à Deo dati, a bishop over the Bishop, and a judge over the judge, appointed of God for the tyme. Which is the very property of that false usurper of Rome, who maketh himself head bishop over all bishops, and head judge over all judges by God in every their jurisdictions appointed to be obeyed of all their own flock, and not to be under a foreign usurper. And as he doth by saint Cyprian his judgement transgress this God's law in making himself judge of the judge by God appointed, so doubt I not but the judgement of the said law, He shall die the death, will light upon him for his pride, arrogancy, and tyranny over his brethren, and equals by God's law. And though such horrible Luciferian pride an● other wickedness unspeakable, as is in the Pope, seem to be reserved to God's everlasting judgements, for that no worldly penalty can be sufficient for such deserts, yet doth God in our days, not long before the coming of his son to judgement, denounce the same most manifestly, and as it were peremptorily to him, and his. Dorman. Fol. 7. For I remember a saying of Cregorius Nazianzenus. Vbi nullum est imperium, nullus ordo, ubi multorum, ibi seditio, ut & Lib. 3. de Theologia. sic nullum imperium nullus ordo existat. Vtrumque enim eôdem abs●rditatis perducit. Where is none to rule, there is no order: Where many rule, there is sedition: so that after Nowell. Borrowed out of Pighius Hierarch. lib. 2 cap. 3. fol. 65. ● that manner of government also, there is no government, there is no order. For both to have none to rule, & to have many, lead us to like inconvenience. How shall we then say, Diligit dominus Syon super omnia tabernaculae jacob? Our lord loveth Zion above all the tabernacles of jacob? Nowell. You may note that M. Dorman hath a good memory, who can and dare without the book rehearse to us sentences out of doctors for his proofs, and publish the same to the world: and boldly in the steed of one God governing all, (for of him speaketh Nazianzene in that place) to dash us in the teeth with one Pope to govern all the church. I would M. Dorman had enlarged his memory somewhat to a few words of Nazianzene going next before, and making all the matter most plain: which M. Dorman therefore of purpose to blind the reader hath omitted, such a shrewd memory hath the man. The words of Nazianzene confuting two false opinions that men had of God, are these: Prima opinio nullum Deum, nullum Dei imperium: alia Deos multos, & cuique suum imperium statuit etc. Sed ubi nullum est imperium, ibi nullus ordo etc. That is to say: The first false opinion of God is, that there is no God, no governance of God: the second, that there are many Gods, and that every of them hath his governance by himself. But where no rule is, there is no order: where many rule, there is sedition. These are Nazianzene his words against those that think that either there is no God, or many gods: which M. Dorman out of his memory reporteth as spoken against those, who would have no pope, or many Popes. But you see it is not good trusting to M. Dormans' memory, who doth so readily without book allege things neither against us, nor with himself, but altogether impertinent to the purpose. Now if M. Dorman list transfer the sentence from God, governing all the world, to men under him ruling in the world, and would thereof frame us this argument: Nazianzene saith, there is one only God who governeth all: Ergo there must be one only Pope, or head bishop to govern all the Church: I deny the argument: and affirm that it followeth no more, then that there must be one only Emperor to govern all the world. And to brag somewhat of memory too, as M. Dorman doth: I remember that M. Dorman Fol. 4. b. himself hath alleged, that for avoiding of confusion in the world, every kingdom, every country, every city, every company of men must have an head to rule them. Whereof I infer, that for avoiding of schisms, and explication of doubles, every church of every country and diocese ought to have an head, and a judge to resort unto. And as there is no confusion in the world, nor discord, for that sundry parts of the world have sundry civil governors, as is most necessary that they have, and is in the scriptures declared to be so by God appointed: so is there no disorder, that several churches have several bishops to their heads, Eccl. 17. b. 14. but is most necessary for all good order so to be. And so is that sentence of Nazianzene generally taken, nothing against the governance of several bishops in several dioceses: no more than it is against the civil regiment of several governors, in several countries. For as it is appertaining to God only, & to our saviour Christ his son, by their almighty power & wisdom to govern all the world, & all the church: so is it enough, and to much for any one man well to govern a little parcel thereof. And so to return to Nazianzene his saying: Where is no rule, there is no order: Truth it is: but where one Bishop as one head, is in every diocese, there is some rule: therefore there is some order. Where many rule, there is sedition: It is true, if many magistrates have equal rule in one common wealth, or if many ecclesiastical persons have equal authority in one several Church, we confess it is like to their fantasy, who would have many equal Gods to rule the world. But one several ruler in one several dominion, one several bishop in one several diocese, do resemble one God ruling one whole world, and one Christ ruling one whole church, so well as earthly creatures may resemble the heavenly creator. But one earthlic man by governing all the whole world, or the whole church throughout the world to resemble God or Christ, is a presumption unheard of, but only in the Pope of Rome. Let therefore several rulers and Bishops hold themselves contented with several dominions and dioceses, according to God's Ecclesia. 17. ordinance. For it is false that such several rulers in several places do cause sedition, and it is proved false by the civil government of divers rulers in divers countries, for so it standeth for the most part throughout the world at this day. Wherefore M. Dorman and D. Harding may as well say that the world is seditiously governed by divers princes, as the Church by several Bishops. But as Nazianzene ever dreamt of one Emperor over all the world to avoid sedition, though he teacheth there is one God: no more did he, though he teach one Christ, yet ever dream of one only head bishop or Pope, over the whole Church throughout the world to avoid schisms, as dreaming M. Dorman phantasieth, and thinketh all men that be awake, to dream too, as he doth. He speaketh further in his sleep, and sa●eth. How shall we then say, Our Lord loveth Zion above all the tabernacles of jacob? What this doth mean, or to what purpose it is, I know not. And I believe M. Dorman, when he waketh (if ever he wake) can not tell himself. For Pighius out of whom he borrowed it, is a sleep, Hierarch. lib. 2. cap. 3. and never will wake to tell his dream. Dorman. fol. 7. There is no doubt therefore, but that Christ hath Nowell. Borrowed out of D. Harding fol. 82. 2. & 93 b. And Pighius Hierarch: fol. 155. a. 196. d. 235. c. 318 d. & multis loc●s. provided for his church, which he redeemed so dearly, as with the expense of his own most precious blood, a judge and chief ruler, to end and determine so many controversies, as he knew should molest and infest the same. They can not say, that are adversaries, & kick against this truth, that this which I allege, was in the old law, and in a shadow, that these days and this time require other manners. For that argument hath their English apology soluted, and pronounced that so to say, were Plusquam ridiculum, seeing there was then, idem deus, idem spiritus, idem Christus, eadem fides, eadem doctrina, eadem spes, eadem haeredit as, idem foedus, cadem vis verbi dei. the same God, the same holy ghost, the same Christ, the same faith, the same doctrine, the same hope, the same heritage, the same covenant, the same strength of God's word. Nowell. M. Dorman is so mighty in reasoning, and hath so many and so good grounds, that he is full of conclusions as you see. We grant Christ hath provided for his church so dearly bought and beloved of him, as well as he did for the jews, & better too. For whereas they had but one chief bishop for their whole nation, he hath by the ministery of his Apostles, provided every great city, every Diocese of such a one, that they may be the better governed, and less pained to travail far for the decision of their doubts and controversies. Wherefore in these points we make no exception to your old shadow, nor require no new manners. But as they and we have one God, one spirit, one Christ, one faith, one doctrine, one inheritance, and so forth, that so in like manner there be one like ecclesiastical ●eg●ment, that every one diocese, country or nation have in like wise one bishop to be their judge and determiner of doubts, as had the nation of the jews. But M. Dorman dealeth not truly with the Apology. The Apology declareth that the church of God was much obscured, and brought to a small number amongst the jews: and it showeth tha● it hath in like wise also been obscured, and brought to a small number amongst Christians. The adversaries of the Gospel, who are the corrupters thereof, and would have no corruption nor decay of the Church now noted or known, say: although the Church of God was obscured, and brought to a little number in the old law, and in the shadow, and figure, when nothing was perfit: yet can it not be so in the time of the Gospel, the time of grace and perfection, etc. The Apology replieth: That defence can not serve, for there was the same God, the same spirit, the same Christ etc. then, as is now: and therefore as the Church decayed then, so may it, and hath it decayed now. M. Dorman handleth the matter as though he could prove by the Apology, that because there was the same God, the same Christ, the same holy ghost etc. in the jewish church, as is now: therefore must there be one head bishop over all the christian church dispersed throughout the world, as there was one head bishop over all that jues. Which followeth no more, then that we must have circumcision now, for that the jews had it then. Unless M. Dorman think he may mingle In lente unguentum, things most impertinent together: and prove quidlibet, ex quolibet: all things of every thing, at his pleasure. Dorman. Fol. 7. But yet this I protest, that upon the authority of their Apology [which with me is in that conceit, that it is with all honest and learned men, that is to say, taken as in deed it is, for a farthel of lies:] I am no whit the bolder to reason thus. Nowell. Here is at once a protestation, and also a confutation of the Apology. For other confutation or answer to it then this, and such like, as you shall hear hereafter, have they not hitherto made. Wherefore as justly might we challenge all the whole company of Papists, being at so good leisure as they are, that they have not hitherto answered the Apology so long abroad in their hands, as we are blamed of many, for that your books lately set forth are not forthwith answered. It is a pleasure for M. Dorman to shoot at rovers, & to range as he list in railing here and there, and to call the Apology, a farthel of lies. But it is not so easy for master Dorman, nor D. Harding to answer it piththilie, to the satisfying of the learned readers. Which neither they both, nor their whole romish clergy shall ever be able to answer to any purpose. But I may justly reply to M. Dorman as the truth is, that this his book is nothing else but a farthel of lies, & raging railings packed together, as I trust I have in deed notified to the discreet reader for that is passed over of it hitherto, & doubt not of like success in the rest. And I think that all honest and learned men in deed, will so much more like the said Apology, when they shall understand that it so much mistiketh M. Dorman, and other of like honesty and learning as he is. Dorman. fol. 7. But because I have perceived, that God in that people, in their law and priesthood, shadowed out unto us, like a cunning workman the whole form and proportion of his church, as witnesseth saint Paul. Lex Nowell. Borrowed out of Pighius Hierarch. lib. 2. cap. 3. fo. 65. ●▪ And out of Hosius contra Brent. lib. 2. fol. 58. b. umbram habet futurorum bono●● non ipsam imag inem rerum, The Hebr. 10. law containeth a shadow of the good things to come, but expresseth not manifestly the truth of things: therefore I thought I might well reason from the shadow to the body, from the resemblance & image, to the truth thereto answering. From the which kind of reasoning, saint Paul sometimes abstained not, as when he laboured to prove, that the law of the gospel 1. Corin. 9 would bear, that they which preached the gospel should live thereby: he reasoned after this sort. Nunquid secundum hominem haec dico▪ Speak I this as a man? That is to say, prove I, this by worldly reasons? a & lex haec non Deuter. 25. dicit? saith not the law so toe? And so goeth he forward, and proveth yet by this text of the old law. Thou shalt not moosell or bind up the mouth of the labouring Ox, as though he should have said: it was so in the shadow, therefore it must be so in the body and in the truth signified by that shadow. Thus ye see good readers, that I may say with saint Paul, have I proved only by reasons fetched from the doings of men, by examples of all common wealths and societies well governed, that in Christ's common weal there must be also one to rule? Have I affirmed this because saint Cyprian, saint Hierom, blessed and holy Leo so said? Who yet were while they lived here but men, although now saints in heaven. Nunquid non & lex haec dicit? saith not the law so toe? Nowell. You take to much pain M. Dorman, to prove that you may lawfully with S. Paul allege out of th'old testament, for the proof of good causes, as he did. We blame you not for that you allege out of th'old testament, but for your guileful, & untrue application of places of the old testament & of the doctors, to such purposes as they appertain nothing unto at all, nay are moste contrary to the same. I would you and all other adversaries of the truth would, as you say, with saint Paul reason from the shadows of the old law, to the truth thereby figured: but you have done otherwise. For you do not with saint Paul, but with Pighius and Hosius Pighi. Hierar. lib. 2. cap. 3. use this place, not bringing us by shadows to the truth, as did S. Paul, but by your shadows of Ceremonies Folio. 65. c. Hosius lib. 2. contra Brentium. fol. 58. b. you have darkened the truth, & brought us quite away from it. You have by this your reason, so was it in the shadow, therefore it must be so in the body, & in the truth signified by that shadow, not only placed your romish head over the whóle Christian Church, but also of Christians you have made us jews: and yourselves of ministers of the Gospel, have you made jewish & aaronical Levites. You have on Aaron's robes, you use his gestures, you have brought in his incense, his censers, his altars, his candles, his candlesticks, his bells and his banners, his gold and his silver into the service and Temple of God. Of the which then beginning, S. Jerome in his time much Hiero. ad Demetriadem, & ad Nepotianum. complained. And would to God you had done no worse, than thus made us and yourselves altogether jewish, by your shadows imitating and counterfeiting the old law: I would ye had not also, by bringing in of Idols, by invocations of dead men, by your charms and witchcrafts, contrary to all God's law, both old and new, made us altogether most wicked Ethnishe Idolaters, and withal made a mart, and set a sale all this your religion, thereby to rob silly Christians, both of their wit and money, yea and of their soul's health too, which is most of all: as it is evident to all the world you have done. But now to proceed with M. Dormans' reason from the shadow to the body, from the figure to the truth, from the jewish church, to ours: In the jewish church all the people, a Exo. 24. b. 7. Deu. 31. c. 12. 13. men, women, and children had the Scripture in a language that they did well understand: the Levites and priests in the jewish church b Exod. Levi. Deu. per totum. had wives and children: c Exod. 20. & infinitis locis. in the jewish church there were no Images: ergo it must be so now in our church. For God like a cunning workman in that people, in their law and priesthood, shadowed out unto us the whole form, and proportion of his church now: it was so in the shadow, therefore it must be so in the body, and in the truth. These be your own words M. Dorman. To proceed: May it be proved by reason only, that they, who are bounden to obey God's law, ought to understand and know God's law? Doth not the law say so too? Deut. 31. c. 12. 13. May it be proved by reason only, that ministers of the Church may have wives? May not one reason with S. Paul, unusquisque propter vitandam fornieationem habeat uxorem suam. Et, qui se non continent, nubant: Nam melius 1. Cori. 7. a. ●. b. 9 est nubere, quàmuri. That is to say: Let every man for the avoiding of fornication, have his wife. And, such as cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry, then to burn. Doth not the law say so too? May it be proved by reason only, that Images ought not to be in the temples, and that men which have life and reason, ought not to bow and scope to insensible blocks, or stones? Doth not the law forbid it to? If you will deny my arguments, and think these reasons Exod. 20. Non facies, non coals. unreasonable, as I think you will, yet I trust you do against your own words, and form of reasoning. And good M. Dorman assoil me of this doubt, how this argument of yours holdeth, As it was in the shadow, so must it be in the body also: but all the jews had one head priest, Ergo all christians must so have also. Why this, I say, should hold, and not the other, I would gladly learn the reason of you, at your leisure: if there be any other reason then this, that you may take of shadows what you list, and leave and refuse what you list, and as pleaseth you, without all colour or shadow of reason or truth, that ye may be the children of your romish father the Pope, with whom (as by Daniel was before Danie. 11. f. 36. prophesied of him, and as in his own Canon law is Clementin. li. 3. tit. 13. cap. 1. & lib. 5. tit 10. cap. 4. glossa in verba (volumus & velle.) recorded) will standeth for reason: and so doth it with you all, in all things likewise. Now where M. Dorman concludeth thus for his one head, saying: Have I proved only by reason, and by examples of common wealths that there must be one head over all Christ's church? Have I affirmed this because saint Cyprian, S. Jerome, blessed and holy Leo saints in heaven now, so said? saith not the law so too? I answer, Noforsooth M. Dorman: you have neither proved it by reason, nor by examples of common wealths: for both all reason and all examples be against you, and do prove and declare that every particular kingdom, dominion, city, and company have their several governors, and not all the world one earthly governor. Saint Cyprian, and S. Jerome say not so, but clean contrary to your saying: to wit, that every diocese, every province ought to have his peculiar bishop to govern it. And as for blessed and holy Leo, though he be by you adorned with a double epitheton (where S. Jerome, and S. Cyprian must be content with a single S.) though you put to the third title too, in worship of the three circles in the Pope's Imperial mitre, yet have I alleged sufficient cause why he can not serve your turn. And as for the law, it likewise saith against you: and your own witness S. Cyprian testifieth that it speaketh against you, for the equal authority of every bishop in his own diocese, and therefore overthroweth your supremacy of one head Bishop over all. And the lewdness of your collection, that because one nation had one head bishop, therefore must all nations have one head bishop over them, is beside so manifest, that it needeth no confutation. Dorman. Fol. 8. But here I know our adversaries will say that these proofs needed not, to prove that Christ's church must have a head, and a judge to order & determine doubtful questions, which hap amongst us, & whereof the world is now so full. For that will they say, they know as well as Cyprian, Jerome, Leo, or any of them all, although they will not admit the same judge or the same head that they do. But what head think you good readers appoint they to govern Christ's Church here in earth? what judge to determine controversies? Forsooth the head of the church they say [wherein we find no fault but Nowell Borrowed of D Harding, Folio. 81. b. say the same ourselves] is jesus Christ, and the judge of all controversies arising therein, they call the scriptures. apollo. Eccles. Anglic. fol. ●. Nowell. Although you question with the reader, as marveling at the strangeness of our head, yet are we bound to you that you find no fault with us, that we say, Christ is our head, as in deed he is the only head of the catholic or universal church of all places and ages: and none but he alone neither in heaven nor earth, what so ever you say to the contrary. That you do think it so strange that we call the Scriptures the judge of all controversies, we marvel not, seeing you follow your own fantasy in matters of religion directly against the scriptures. But what soever you do or say, we say and believe that the word of God, and of our saviour Christ ought to be judge here between us in our days. For it shall judge both you and us too, in the last great day, according to the saying of our saviour. Qui spernit me, & non accipit verba mea, habet joan. 12. g. 48. qui judicet eum. Sermo quem locutus sum, ille judicabit eum in novissimo die. That is to say: He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath that shall judge him. The word which I have spoken, that shall judge him in the last day. M. Dorman, avoid the contempt, that you may escape the judgement. Dorman. Fol. 8. Here suffer me a little I beseech you to shake these maskers out of there clouts, and to make open to the world their great dissimulation and sotteltie, whereby under the name of Christ, & his most holy word, so glittering at the first show in the eyes of the simple, yea perhaps of some of the wiser sort also, that it is to be feared lest it strike them blind all together: they seem to have purchased to themselves a double benefit at once: first, great credit by pretending and using, nay rather abusing, the name of Christ and his word: next great security, both for their own persons, and also for all such divelis he doctrine, as they or any other heretics list to utter. Whilst on the Nowell. Borrowed out of Hosius contra Brentium. lib. 3. fol. 173. one side, they take themselves to be out of all check of man, and may be controlled of none, as they say, but of God only, [who if he let them alone till that time that they think he will, then bid they us let them shift for themselves, they shall have time enough, in the mean season to preach, and teach without controllment what they list:] and on the other side, whilst by provoking to the scriptures as their judge, they think themselves to stand upon a sure ground: seeing they are already with themselves at a point, to receive no other interpretation thereof, then shall make for their purpose, and they also see, that amongst so many heresies as have hitherto troubled the church of God, there was never yet any one so horrible and absurd, that the author thereof hath not by this means, in his own judgement, been right well, able to sustain & defend. Nowell. Hold not the man for God's sake: he seemeth to fantasy that he is playing his part in the stage, and will by privilege of his office unuisour and uncase some of his play fellows to make sport, and to move laughter. But where he calleth Christ and the scriptures our clouts: I would he witted, we rejoice of those clouts as much, as doth M. Dorman, either when he is in a glorious golden Cope, with a pair of glittering guilt Censers in his hands, perfuming and withal worshipping a golden God, no boliar, nor wiser than the golden calf: or when he is in his robes on the scafolde, and playing his part in a Christmas game: and I trust he shall sooner reveste himself again in these his royal robes, then pluck us from Christ our head, and from the scripture our judge, which he calleth our clouts. Good reader marvel not that I answer this merry man, thus ruffling in his masks, after this manner, but weigh, I pray thee, his writing from this place forwards, where he prayeth that he be not holden, and mark what a shrewd shaking he maketh, specially for a whole leaf & more, next after following. Where you say, M. Dorman, that we blind the people with glittering shows, you do object to us your own crimes. It is you Papists, who, by your glittering, glorious, masking garments, and other costly and fine furniture, as copes, vestiments, gilted crosses, candlesticks, dead men's, and often, dead beasts bones burnished over with burning gold, by your Ceremonies, your minstrelsy, your bells, banners, and other babbles, have bewitched, and stricken not only the simple, but a great many of the wiser sort also, stark blind and deaf too: that neither they can see any thing of Christ their saviour, nor hear and understand aught of his most holy word. And you have compelled them in the steed of sincere and spiritual worship of the true God, with you to put all religion in outward & dumb Galat. 4. b. ●. Infirma & egena clementa. Daniel. 11. f. 36. ceremonies, the seely weak and wretched elements of this world: and not to regard the God of their fathers, but in steed of him to honour the God Maozim, and to worship a God, whom their fathers did not know, with glittering gold, silver, precious stone, and other precious things, in place of true unfeigned faith, and a pure heart. With what security we do utter the truth forbidden us by you, as it was to Christ's Apostles by the high Priests and Phariseis your forefathers, all prisons in England replenished of late with our captive bodies, all market places and other more viler sprinkled with our blood, shed by the crueleste kind of death that the Devil the homicide your great grandfather could devise, doth plentifully testify to the whole world. And the most part of us losing our lives together with all worldly hope, by death more dreadful, then is usual either to Felons, murderers, or to most savage & noisome wild beasts, might give you to understand, if you would consider, that it is no new fangled appetite, or lust of uttering errors, or hope of worldly gain, that doth move us to preach against your heresies and superstitions: but even the same mere necessity of conscience, which in like case enforced the Apostles, likewise forbidden Act. 14 d. 18. upon pain of death, to preach: who made answer, that it was more reason to obey God, than man, Act. 4. d. 20. Non possumus non loqui quae vidimus & audivimus. and that they could not choose but teach those things, which they did know certainly to be most true. And the same answer do we make to you: for the which you will suffer us to have no security in this life. Concerning the scripture and the sense thereof, the reader may in a like case consider. Whereas there was a controversy between the Apostles and the high priests, Scribes and Phariseis, about the interpretation of the Scriptures, touching the true Messiah, by the which Scriptures the Apostles proved that Christ our Saviour, whom they had crucified, was he: but the high Priests and Phariseis by their interpretations attempted the contrary, and would not have such a poor and abject man, as to them and the world it seemed that Christ was, to be their Messiah. Now had the Apostles (as M. Dorman, me think, thinketh it reason) leaving the Scriptures in this case most plain, referred the matter to the interpretation and determination of the high priest & his consistory: we might at this day with the jews have looked yet for a Messiah to come, and should with them have lacked, to our utter damnation, the saviour of the world jesus Christ the son of God, who is at this da●e to them, by reason of such their interpretations, the stone of stumbling, isaiah. 8. c. 14. Rom●. 8. g. 33. 1. Pet. 2. b. 6. 7. 8 1. Cori. 1. d. 30. and the rock of ruin: but to us, who do believe in him, he is become wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and salvation. And as there was then a contronersie between the Apostles, and the high Priests, whether they had unjustly or justly slain that righteous one and innocent Lamb of God, and no reason it was that the murderers themselves should be judges, being not only accessaries, but the principal parties to the murder: so there being now risen a controversy between us and you, about the true religion of the same our saviour (which how shamefully you have with your traditions corrupted, even as had your forefathers the Phariseis before corrupted the law of God, he that hath but half an eye may well se●) you think it reason yet that you, who are the corrupters, and therefore parties, should be judges therein also, and specially your chief and most high Priest the Pope, the poodle and sink of all these abominations, & therefore most guilty of all other, and consequently most unmeet to be the judge therein. And yet M. Dorman will needs have him the judge, and the word of God so indifferent to all men, and partial to none, rejected. And why rejected, I pra●e you? Forsooth for that we may by the Scriptures defend (as you say) what error we list: as though that you may not by the judgement of the Pope, and by your own judgements under the name of the church, far more easily, as you have brought in, so also maintain and defend all errors and superstitions. Is not the Pope more partial to himself, and you his Papists, then are the Scriptures to us? Wherefore it were as good reason, that Annas and Caiphas should be judges, whether they themselves had done justly and righteously, or wickedly and murderouslie, in slaying Christ, as that your Pope, or you, the corrupters of true Religion, should be judges, whether in so doing you have done well or no. If it be no reason (as the proverb goeth) to ask whether one be a thief or no, of his fellow: much less reason is it to ask the same question of himself, seeing it is certain that he will not bewray himself. But the adversaries of the Gospel deal thus with us: the Pope and all his eleargie, being guilty of many heresies, corruptions of religion, and false superstitions, and thereof accused, do assemble themselves together in a council, in the which nothing may be moved, Pighi. Hierar. lib. 6. cap. 1. fol. 275. b. much less determined, but such as pleaseth the Pope himself: there is inquiry made of us (who do accuse them thereof, and offer to prove it) and there unheard, and unseen, we are condemned of our adversaries (who will needs be our judges) as false accusers, schismatics, and heretics also, for that we are against them, who are (as they say) the Church. You will say, we might be heard if we would, for they call certain of all Christian realms to their councils. How we are called, and how we may be heard, let John hus, called by the Emperor Sigismunde his saulfe conduct under his great Imperial seal to the Council of Constance, with Jerome of Prague, (who both were, contrary to the faith given them by the greatest Christian prince in the world, condemned and burned to ashes) be an eternal witness: Yea let Cō●i. Constantiensis sess. 19 their own decree made in the said Council, which was: That no faith nor promise is to be kept to any heretic, nor that any man by any promise standeth bound to an heretic (for so they call all those that dare speak against them) be a perpetual testimony of the same. They say, we are heretics: we do deny it: if our nay may not defend us, why should their yea condemn us? They say, because they be the church: but we deny the same: shall here their yea secue for them, as it did before against us: and our nay neither touch them, nor help us? In some countries if the party accused plead not guilty, and say nay to the crime objected, if he, by divers torments enforced to confess, do still maintain his nay, and pass through the appointed torments, constanly maintaining his nay, he is discharged and let go. But it can not help us, accused as heretics, to deny the false accusation, to maintain our denial in all torments, and most cruel deaths, neither to bring good testimony of our innocency out of God's word: all these can help us nothing against their only bare saying, that we be heretics, for that is all their proof. In what case are we then? How easily may they then both defend themselves, & condemn us: and maintain what they list, be it right or wrong, truth or falsehood: being accusers, witnesses, examiners, and judges themselves, in the causes wherein they be parties, and parties accused also? Wherefore what can we do else, but as did Christ our saviour and his holy Apostles, against the high Priests, against the Phariseis and Scribes, appeal to God, not absent, not dumb, as M. Dorman deviseth, and saying nothing at all for us, as he would have it seem: but to God, yea and to our Saviour Christ his son, speaking his mind most largely and plainly in the scriptures, and being no party, but most indifferent judge between them and us. For if the controversy be about true Religion, and service of God, what better trial can there be then God's word? God himself commanding Deut. 5. d. 32▪ & 12. d. 32. us, that in his service we shall do that which he commandeth us, that we shall neither add thereto, nor take any thing therefrom. What better judge can there be in this world between us, than God's word, which, as our saviour Christ saith, shall judge us in joan. 12. g. 48. the world to come? If the controversy be about the true church, what better judge can there be then the Scripture, written by the Prophets and the Apostles, Ephes. a▪ d. 20. seeing it is testified to us by the spirit of GOD most plainly, that the true church is builded and stayed upon the foundation of the Prophets, & of the Apostles? And though this do not like M. Dorman, and such as he is, yet you shall hear that it did not mis●●ke the old, and holy fathers of the ancient and true church, that such controversies should be so quieted by the scriptures. Saint Augustine contending against those, Augu de pe●catorum meritis li. 1. ca 22 who do attribute God's grace and gifts to the worthiness of men's merits, concludeth thus. Cedamus & consentiamus autoritati scripturae sancte, quae nescit falli, nec fallere. That is to say: Let us give place and aagrée to th'authority of the holy scripture, which can not be deceived, nor deceive others. The same S. Augustine contending with the Donatists, hath these words. Nos nullam Cypriano facimus iniuriam, cum eius quaslibet literas à canonica Divinarum scripturarum autoritate Idem ad Cresconium. lib 2. cap. 31. &, 32. distinguimus: neque sine causa tam salubri vigilantia Canon ecclesiasticus constitutus est, ad quem certi prophetarum, & Apostolorun libri pertinent, quos omnino judicare non audemus, & secundum quos de caeteris fidelium & infidelium, iudicamus. & mox ca 32. Ego huius epistolę autoritate non teneor, quia literas Cypriani non ut canonicas habeo, sed eius ex canonicis considero: & quoth in eyes divinarum scripturatum autoritati congruit, cum laud eius accipio: quod autem non congruit, cum pace eius respuo. Which is to say: We do Cyprian no wrong, when we make a difference between every letter and writing of his, and the Canonical authority of the holy scriptures: Neither without cause th'ecclesiastical Canon with so wholesome care hath been appointed, to the which the certain & assured books of the Prophets & Apostles pertain, the which in no wise we presume to judge, and according to the which we judge of all other books & writings, both of the faithful and of the infidels. And strait ways after in the 32. chapter: I am not bound to the authority of this epistle, because I hold not Cyprians letters and writings for Canonical: but consider his writings by the Canonical: & what accordeth in them to the authority of the divine Scriptures, I allow with his praise: and what disagreeth from them, by his leave I refuse. These are the words of S. Augustine. You may see here, how S. Augustine preferreth the scriptures before the doctors, yea before S. Cyprian so often by you M. Dorman alleged, who was in deed a blessed martyr, & is no doubt, a saint in beaven: and who also is moss against you, even where he is alleged by you. You see, S. Augustine will have saint Cyprians writings, and all other doctors, and men's sayings and writings examined and judged by the scriptures (which you yet reject as no convenient judges) and that the scriptures may be judged by no man. Yea S. Cyprian himself agreeing hereto, showeth the causes why heresies, schisms, corruption of the truth, and breach of unity do come into the Church, and why so many are deceived by the devil, transforming himself into an angel of light, by these words. Hoc eò fit fratres dilectissimi, dum ad veritatis De simplicitate p●aelato●ū. originem non reditur, nec caput quaeritur, nec magistri coelestis doctrina servatur. Quae si quis consideret & examinet, tractatu longo at que argumentis opus non est. That is to say: This cometh to pass hereof, most beloved brethren; for that we do not return to the origen ●● beginning of the truth, neither is the head sought nor the doctrine of the heavenly master kept. The which things if a man do consider and examine, it shall not need any long treaty orargumentes, Thus far saint Cyprian: Who calleth Christ originem veritatis, caput, unum * Ibidem Pa●lo infrà. caput, & originem unam, & magistrum coelestem etc. To say: The beginning of the truth, the head, the only head, the only beginning, the heavenly school master, whose doctrine if we would observe, we should not (saith S. Cyprian) need any long treaty or arguments, But for that this beginning of the truth is not returned unto, this head is not sought for, the doctrine of this heavenly schoolmaster is not kept, he affirmeth it, to be the cause of all heresies, schisms, endless contentions illusions of the devil, & other mischiefs in the church in his time: as we likewise prove it now to be in our tyme. And therefore they that seek other beginnings, beside this only beginning, other heads, besides this only head, other doctrines besides this doctrine of this only heavenly school master, are the very authors of the said schisms, heresies, endless contentions, and all other mischiefs, which trouble the Church of God. Now let us hear S. Augustine concerning the scriptures and Councils, who contending with the Artians, alleging the Ariminense Contra Maximi●um Arrianorum episcopum lib. 3. cap. 14. concilium for them, hath these words: Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum, nec tu debes Ariminense, tanquam pręiudicaturus proferre concilium: nec ego huius autoritate, nec tuillius detineris: scripturarum autoritatibus non quorumque proprijs, sed utrisque communibus testibus, res cum re, causa cu causa, ratio cum ratione conferatur etc. That is to say: But neither I ought to bring forth the council of Nice, nor thou the Council of Ariminum, as one thereby to prejudice the other: neither am I bound to th'authority of the one, nor thou of the other. By the authority of the scriptures, not peculiar witnesses unto either of us, but common and indifferent to both, let matter with matter, cause with cause, reason be compared with reason. Thus far S. Augustine. You see that your Councils (by S. Augustine's judgement) ought not to prejudice us, being at controversy with you: you see how your councils are partial to you, as was the Ariminense council to the Arrians, yea and much more too: you see that S. Augustine would not in this case use the authority of the Nicene council, which yet of all other, had and hath the greatest authority: and that therefore the authority of the Scriptures partial to none, but common and indifferent to all, is to be used of all, and above all as judge. Saint Chrysostom concerning the same writeth thus: Gravior est scripturarum ac prophetarum doctrina, quam Chrysost. de Lazaro concione. 4. siquid à mortuis resuscitati renuncient, quàm si angelus è coelo descendat: quae illi dicunt, servi sunt, qui loquuntur: quae verò scripture loquuntur, locutus est Dominus. Docet ergo nos Dns, ut scripturis potiùs credendum existimemus, quàm caeteris omnibus. Which is to say: More weighty is the doctrine of the Scripture and the Prophets, then if such as be raised from the dead do report any thing, or if an Angel do descend from heaven: as for the things that they talk, they be but servants that speak them: but whatsoever the Scripture uttereth, the Lord hath spoken it. The Lord therefore doth teach us, that we should think, creadite should be rather given unto the scriptures, then to all other things. These are the words of Chrysostom in that place. And in an other he saith. Nemo vult ad scripturas attendere: si enim adverteremus, Ch●ysost. in epist. ad Hebr. Homilia. 8. non solum non incideremus in fallaciam, sed etiam alios deceptos inde liberaremus & periculo abstraheremus. That is to say: No man will give heed unto the scriptures: for if we did consider them, we should not only not fall into error our own selves, but also thereof deliver other that are deceived, and pull them from peril. So much affirmeth Chrysostom. Saint Jerome also agreeth to the same, who, speaking of a Hieron. in Math. 23. matter contained in the writings called Apocrypha, saith: Hoc, quia de scriptures non habet autoritatem, eadem facilitate contemnitur, qua probatur. That is Probatur, is proved or approved. to say: This, because it hath not the authority of scripture for it, is as easily contemned, as proved. The same saint Jerome, even in an other place, alleged also in Causa. 24. Quaest. 1. cap. Non adferam●. the Pope's own Canonnes, hath these words: Non adferamus stateras dolosas, ubi appendamus quod volumus pro arbitrio nostro, dicentes, hoc grave est, hoc leave est: sed adferamus divinam stateram de scripturis sacris, tanquam de thesauris dominicis: & in illa quid sit gravius appendamus. Which is to say: Let us not bring deceitful balances, wherein we may weigh whatsoever we lust at our own discretion, saying this is heavy, this is light: but let us bring the heavenly balance of the holy Scriptures, as from the treasure of the Lord: and therein let us weigh, what is of more weight. Thus much concerning the sovereignty of the Scripture, I thought good to bring out of the Doctors. Now touching the expounding and sense of the Scriptures, S. Augustine hath these words: De doctrina Christiana lib. 3. cap. 26. Vbi apertius ponuntur [in scripturis sacris] ibi discendum est, quomodo in locis intelligantur obscuris etc. Where things are more plainly uttered in the scriptures, there must we learn how they are to be understanded in dark places. These be saint Augustine's words, who doth often in sundry places of his works inculcate and repeat the same. Saint Chrysostom Augu. lib. 83. quaest. Quaest. 53. etc. Chrysost. In 2. cap. Genes. Homilia. 13. agreeing with saint Augustine concerning the same, hath these words. Ad ipsum divinae scripturae scopum accedamus, quae seipsam interpretatur. & mox. Sacra scriptura seipsam exponit, & auditorem errare non sinit. Which is to say: Let us come to the level and mark of the holy scripture, which doth expound itself. And by and by after. The sacred scripture expoundeth itself, and suffereth not the hearer for to err. Hitherto Chrysostom. Now concerning the authority of the scriptures and the Church, there is a most notable and true declaration thereof in the ancient author printed with Chrysostom, and of long time taken for him, who upon these words of our saviour in the Gospel of saint matthew, Qui sunt in judęa fugiant ad montes, That is to say: They that be in jewrie, let them fly to the mountains, saith thus. In opere imperfecto. Id est, qui sunt in Christianitate conferant se ad scripturas. Et quare in hoc tempore omnes Christiani confer se ad scripturas debent? Quia in tempore hoc, ex quo obtinuit haeresis illas ecclesias, nulla probatio potest esse verae Christianitatis, neque refugium potest esse Christianorum aliud, volentium cognoscere fidei veritatem, nisi scripturae divinae. Antea enim multis modis ostendebatur, quae esset ecclesia Christi, & quae gentilitas: nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur volentibus cognoscere quae sit vera ecclesia Christi, nisi tantummodo per scripturas. Quare? Quia omnia hęc quae sunt propriè Christi in veritate, habet & heresis illa in schismate. Similiter ecclesias, similiter & ipsas scripturas divinas, similiter episcopos, caeterosque ordines clericorum, similiter baptismum, similiter Eucharistiam, & cętera omnia, denique ipsum Christum. Volens ergo cognoscere, quę sit vera ecclesia Christi, unde cognoscat in tanta confusione similitudinis, nisi tantummodo per scripturas? Iten ex moribus ipsis priùs intelligebatur ecclesia Christi, quando conversatio Christianorum, aut omnium, aut multorum erat sancta, quę apud impios non erat. Nunc autem aut tales, aut peiores facti sunt Christiani, quales sunt hęretici, aut gentiles: adhuc autem & maior continentia apud illos invenitur, quamuis in schismate sint, quàm apud Christianos'. Qui ergo vult cognoscere quae sit vera ecclesia Christi, unde cognoscat, nisi tantummodo per scripturas? Sciens ergo Dominus tantam confusionem rerum in novissimis diebus esse futuram: ideo mandat, ut Christiani, qui sunt in Christianitate, volentes firmitatem accipere verae fidei, ad nullam rem fugiant, nisi ad scripturas. Alioqui si ad alia respexerint, scandalizabuntur, & peribunt, non intelligentes quae sit vera ecclesia. That is to say: Let them that be in Christianity, fly to the scriptures. And wherefore ought all Christians at this time, to fly to the scriptures? Because in this time sith heresies possessed those Churches, there can be no proof of true christianity, neither can there be any other refuge of Christians, desiring to know the true faith, but the divine scriptures. For before it was declared by many means, which was the true church, and which was Gentility: but now, they who would know which is the true church, can know it by no means, but only by the scriptures. Why so? For all these things, which are properly Christ's in the truth, the same hath heresy also in schism. Heresy hath churches likewise, and the divine Scriptures likewise: Bishops likewise, and other orders of clerk: Baptism likewise, the sacrament of thanks giving likewise, and all other things: to conclude, even Christ himself. He therefore that would know, which is the true church of Christ, how can he know it in so great confusion of likelihood, but only by the scriptures? Further, the church of Christ might be known before by the manners of it, when the conversation either of all, or of the most part of Christians was holy, which was not so amongst the wicked. But now Christians are become either such, or worse then be the heretics or Gentiles: yea there is greater continency amongst them, though they be in schism, then is amongst the Christians. He therefore that would know which is the true Church of Christ, how can he know it, but only by the scriptures? The Lord therefore knowing that in the last days there would be so great confusion of things, doth command that Christians, which be in Christianity, willing to have the surety of true faith, do fly to no other thing but to the scriptures. Else if they have respect to other things, they shall stumble, or fail of the truth, and perish, not understanding Scandalizabuntur. which is the true church. Thus far that ancient author: whose sentence and very words, though for avoiding of prolixity a little intermitted, I have truly rehearsed. You may see that this ancient writer will not allow, that you being the one party should claim to yourself the name of Christians, the name of the church, the names of bishops, and the names of the clergy, and so to take upon you as judges to condemn the other party: but that both you and we must be judged and tried whether we be in Christianity, and in the true church, by the scriptures. You see the names of the church, of Bishops and clergy, which are common to heretics with Christians, can not prove you to be catholics, for that heretics use the same names: but that both you and we must know by the Scriptures, whether we be in the true faith, or no: for that (as he saith) in this confusion of things both the true church, and the true faith must be known by the Scriptures only, and by no other thing: and that whosoever goeth about otherwise to know them, shall stumble and perish. Wherein this author doth agree with S. Augustine, S. Jerome, S. Chrysostom, and with all the old Doctors of the ancient church. Whereby all men may well understand, that it is not our new opinion (as M. Dorman would have it seem) but the old true persuasion of all the ancient doctors and godly fathers of the primitive church, that the Scriptures, as most indifferent and certain, aught to be judges in controversies in religion, rather than Doctors, than Councils, than your Church, then dead men, than angels, yea that the scriptures should be judge, and not they. And that the true sense of scriptures, if doubt rise thereof, may be and must be gathered by the conference of the scriptures, who do clearly expound themselves. For the declaration whereof the said doctors do so often and largely write, that the rehearsal thereof would fill an huge volume: but I did think that this much would suffice. But you Papists will never allow the Scripture as judge, nor the sense thereof to be certain, until it come to the exposition of the Church: and you will be that church, that must so expound it, yourself: that is, you will grant no sense to be true, but your own sense. But we deny that you are the true Church, that hath this authority of determining of the sense of the scriptures. And if you will say still, your are the church, & neither will, nor can prove it, but only by so saying, we be not so void of all sense and understanding, but that we perceive you will have no sense but your own, and that you will be still, both parties and judges in your own causes against us, as the jewish high Priest, Phariseis, and Scribes would needs be against Christ and his Apostles: who did (by your judgement, as it seemeth) allege the scriptures for themselves against the said high Priest, Scribes and Phariseis in vain, for that they being the church, as you now be, were the judges of the sense of the said scriptures by Christ and his Apostles alleged. And I am sure that the high Priest, with his jewish church, was able to say as much for the ordinary succession of the high Priests his predecessors, even from Aaron until his time, for antiquity, for consent, and for universality, against Christ and his Apostles (so few in comparison, and, as it seemed, lately start up): as you are able to say for your church, or against us. But yet we do think that the word of God, as it was alleged by Christ and his Apostles against the said high priest, and his church, so may it and aught also to be alleged by us, against your high priest, and your church: and that the same words of God which shall judge both you & us in the world to come, as is said, ought also to be judge between you and us here in this transitory world: for so doth our saviour Christ teach, so do S. Chrysostom, S. Augustine, joan. 12. g. 48. and S. Jerome, with all the ancient doctors of the Church teach also, as hath been partly besore specified, cry you never so much to the contrary, and make you never so many exceptions to the scriptures, and claim unto yourselves, as being the church, the interpretation thereof: yet such are both your doctrine, and doings, and so contrary to the word of God, (whereupon the true church is builded) that we must needs think that you are not the true church of God. And whether you so be or no, seeing it is in question, and a greater doubt and controversy amongst men, I am sure, then can be about the sense of any place of the scripture, you shall never be able to make any exception unto the Scripture, as no competent judge in controversies, but we shall be able ten times more to make exception to your Pope, and his church, as no indifferent nor meet judge. Wherefore cease once to brag of that, as the undoubted judge of all doubts, which is itself amongst men, of all other doubts the greatest doubt: that is, whether you be the true church of God, or no. Which is with us in deed no doubt, nor with any that hath any understanding in God's word, and judgement in true religion. For we certainly know by the word of God, upon the which as the true church is builded, so is it by the same to be known, that you be not the church of God, for that you so serve from the word of God. As for us, that we are at your hands, though we bring so evident scriptures for us, so rejected and condemned, we take it the better, for that we understand that our saviour Christ, and his holy Apostles, likewise alleging the scriptures, yea and further by their wonderful works, and most godly life, confirming the same, were by the high Priests, Phariseis, and Scribes, rejected, condemned, and siaine: an eternal document, that in this world no person, nor doctrine can satisfy all men, or shall be taken for a judge of controversies above all exception and quarrelling: seeing that Christ himself, so teaching, so working, so living, was excepted unto, as a Daemoniake, or one possessed with the Devil, as a friend to sinners, as a wine drinker: and seeing Math. 21. d. 42. 1. Pet. 2. b. 6. 7. 8 that head corner stone was, as unprofitable to the building of God's church, and his holy word also, as false doctrine, rejected by the high priests, Scribes, and Phariseis, who would needs be the judges of all, themselves. And we conceive good hope, that as our saviour himself, with his holy Apostles, teaching the truth, though rejected, and murdered by the said high Priests, Scribes, and Phariseis, have won unto them the judgements of all godly men and women, against such unrighteous judges: so we likewise teaching the same truth of our Saviour, revealed in his holy Gospel, though of this high priest and romish Caiphas, with his adherentes, Popish Scribes, and Phariseis, rejected, condemned, and murdered, shall against such unjust judges, win unto us the judgement of all godly men and women: as, to the great decay of their false superstition, & success of the truth, is this day, thanks be to God, partly come to pass, in a great part of the Christian world. Dorman. fol. 8. But of this I will entreat more largely hereafter. In the mean season, that they will have of Christ's Church here in earth, no other head but Christ himself, therein they far me thinketh not much unlike, to a certain fellow, of whom I have * No, you read it in effect, in Hosius, lib. 3. fol. 173. heard, that being areigned at the bar for a felony, when he had pleadid to the indictement not guilty, and was [after the manner] demanded how he would be tried, he would [suspecting his own case, and knowing that if he satisfied the law in putting himself upon the trial of the country, there were no more ways with him but one] make thereto no other answer, but only that he would put himself upon God, the righteous judge of all▪ who although he said truly that God was the chief judge of all, as the protestants do, in calling Christ the head of the church: yet was there in his case an other judge here in this world under god, by whom he must have been tried, as there is in theirs an other head here in the church to order them and keep them under, & in whom Christ the chief head of all, useth in all necessary knowledge to give answer. And as the fellow knew well that there was an other judge beside god, & appealed not to him, as though before him he should have been acquitted, & proved not guilty: but only to gain a longer time of life and liberty: so do [I doubt not] our adversaries the protestants. And truly to both these kind of men being both thieves, the one sort doing violence to the body, the other to the soul, if such pleas might be allowed, how soever they be coloured with the name of Christ, between them both, they would freely rob the body, and murder the soul. Nowell. Now proceedeth he pleasantly, and by a parable of a certain felon, all to shaketh us out of our clouts, as he prayed he might be suffered to do. In the handling whereof, it may seem he hath dealt as he was wont, when some of his fellows had forgotten their parts in the play, to hold men occupied for the time, by supplying that defect with some pretty conceits, or telling of some merry tale, thereby to make the auditors to laugh, and the less to mark the mased memory of his mates, and so to save the matter from utter marring, as much as in him might lie. In like wise doth master Dorman here: for where he hath to prove, that of necessity there must be one only chief head here in earth, over the Church (which is in deed, the first and most necessary part of the whole treaty of the Pope's supremacy, and the very foundation of all: which not proved, or else lewdly proved, all the rest cometh down upon their heads: For the which so great a matter, little being as yet said by M. Dorman, and nothing in deed, and less remaining behind to be said): the man being destitute of all earnest matter, piththie reason, and good authority, turneth himself to his accustomed art, and by a pretty tale of a certain felon, all to shaketh us (as he before threatened he would do) out of our masking clouts, as he termeth them: and this he doth to supply other defects thereby, and to make this first part (most necessary of all to be pithily proved) by such patching of i● up, at the least, a quarter as big as his second part of this treaty, to wit, that no prince, or lay man may be the only head of the whole Church, for that priests have more to do in ecclesiastical matters, than they have. Which so long an impertinente part, had M. Dorman put up in his purse, and passed over with silence, he had spared a great deal of paper, ink, and labour, and of other men's time also a great deal more: and had hurt his cause no more thereby, then if he had left his dagger sheath behind him, when he came out in haste to play his part in the pagiaunte. But now to help the poor surmised felon somewhat: if he appealing for the trial of his innocency to God, can bring for him so many testimonies of Gods own mouth, as we are able for our innocency to bring testimonies of words proceeding from the mouth of God, and of our saviour jesus Christ, and yet it will not serve the seely fellow, nor help him any thing in his plea of not guilty: then I think there can not be a fit law, whereby to proceed against him, than the Pope's Canons: (which you know well M. Dorman, for you have therein spent more time, then in the study of the Scriptures) neither can he have a meeter judge to condemn him, than the Pope himself: and an handsomer man, amongst all men to be, I will not say, his hangman, but the foreman of a Popish quest, to pass against the seely soul, shall not any man I believe easily find, nor a fit than is M. Dorman. And thus I let this his parable pass. For that he by the way saith, that there is in our case, beside the scriptures, an other head to order us, and keep us under, meaning the Pope: it is true, there is such a one in deed, that hath too long kept us, and all the world too under, by his false hypocrisy, and horrible tyranny: and he may also be called an head of the church, by the same phrase, as Sardanapalus, Nero, Heliogabalus, and such like monsters were named heads of the common wealth, which they utterly subverted: and he is in deed the head, and husband too of that cruel stepdame the Popish synagogue, being a most horrible murderer of those, whose mother she would be accounted to be. That he saith, Christ the thief head of all, useth in all necessary knowledge to give answer by this head, to wit the Pope: it is M. Dormans' position, and a false fable. The filthy spirits that are called Ventriloqui, are more meet to give answer by such a polluted mouth. Now that it pleaseth M. Dorman to join us with felons, and to conclude, that we as well as they be thieves: and that, as felons would without controlment rob the body, so would we, & do murder men's souls: he fareth herein with us, as did an hasty schooled once with an honest woman, calling her whore at the first word, for fear least the other should have happened first upon her name, which was the same. For it is well known to the world, that the Papists themselves be rather thieves, and murderers: who, by their pardons and Masses, and other such their pedlar pilfrey, set a sale, have picked all men's purses, and of the temple of God, by such buying and selling have made a den of thieves: Math. 21. b. 13 Math. 23. b. 14. Mar. 12. d. 40. and under the colour of long prayers, of Diriges, soul Masses, and Trentals, have spoiled poor widows houses, often times taking away by the name of a mortuary the only Cow, which with her Milk should have fed the sorrowful poor widow, and a seely sort of fatherless children. Which Papists also, as they have with all cruelty murdered infinite numbers of Christian men's bodies, so have they by their poisoned doctrine slain infinitely more thousands of men's souls, than they have murdered bodies: and so have played all parts, and fulfilled all points of perfect thieves and murderers too. So that a Popish priest might most justly be termed by a Plautine periphrasis, trifur trifurcifer. Dorman. Fol. 9 But let us examine this reason of theirs whereof they The comm●● reason of th● protestan●●● place in two leaves & more in M. Dormans' book is wholly taken out of Hosius contra Brent. first ex lib. 5. then ex lib. 1. Nowell. All that followeth from this against the supremacy of the Pope. are wont so much to triumph: Christ is head of the Church, Ergo the Pope is not, Ergo it can have no other head. That Christ is the head of the Church we granted before, and none of our side did ever yet deny it. But as it is most manifest that Christ himself is the worker of all his sacraments [for he baptizeth, he forgiveth sins, he consecrateth his blessed body, & blood he joineth together in Matrimony the man and his wife] & yet, forasmuch as he should needs departed out of this world, and could not always dwell with us, after a corporal manner, he hath chosen ministers, to dispense those gifts by: and we say, and no fault found therewith, that the priest his minister baptizeth, that he forgiveth sins, that he consecrateth his most precious body, and blood: So after the same manner and for the same cause, that is to say because he could not be always present with us, in such sort as we might see him, and speak with him face to face, to be resolved at his mouth of such doubts, and questions as should arise amongst us: he left us also one, that in his absence should govern, and rule his whole church. He remaineth nevertheless head thereof, he ruleth, he reigneth, he exerciseth his power and authority in the same, but yet by man his minister, whom for that cause, most aptly the Scholastical writers have termed, caput ministeriale, that is to say a head, but yet by the reason of his service How Christ is head of the Church, and how the pope and ministery under an other, that is Christ: who is only absolutely, simply, and without all relation to any other, the head thereof. Not, as though he were not able to rule the same, without any such help or instrument [which he could have done also in the old law, where his pleasure was that the people should resort to the chief priest, to be resolved in all doubts arising upon Deuter. 17. the law, and had no more need of help then, than he hath now] but, for that this way it hath pleased him, to show his exceeding great love towards mankind, by choosing out of amongst men, such as he will execute his will by in this world, such as he will use as his mouth, to interpret the secrets of his holy pleasure to us, and finally such as should represent to us his own parson. Nowell. Now that M. Dorman hath refreshed his readers with his pleasant pastime, following the precepts of his Rhetoric, he returneth to earnest again, and falleth to examination of this reason, Christ is head of the Church: Ergo the Pope is not: Ergo it can have none other head. The antecedent he granteth, confessing Dorman. fo. 8. a Et antè, h●c libro. fol. 67. that none of their sort ever denied it, though a little before he made a great wondering at it, enquiring by a musing interrogatory, what head think you good reader's appoint they to govern Christ's church? etc. And the argument also is good, the church being taken as it is there in the Apology, for the universal church, which hath not, nor can possibly have any one earthly head over it, to govern it: as hath been often at large heretofore declared. Master Dormans' examples of Christ's ministers of his holy Sacraments here in earth, make rather against him, then with him: for one chief head hath many underministers in divers services and places usually: but what pertaineth that to prove that there must be one ●eade over all places, and services ecclesiastical throughout the whole world? Which is unpossible to be. Neither can your Scholastical distinction of caput absolutum, and ministerial, help the matter: nor yet Hosius declaration Hosius contra Brent. li. 1. fo. 38. tending to the same end, how Bishops be both servants and lords, can in this case any thing further you. For there can not possibly be one only head minister in earth over all the church throughout the whole world, more than there can be one universal civil head in earth over all the world itself. But note the intolerable ambition of the Pope, who when he saw he could not defend the name of the Head of the universal church, rather than he would lose that only sound of this name, Head of the church, he quali●ieth it with ministerial, to say, a serving head of the church: he might as good cheap have been content with the single title of a minister of the church. And so he seemeth sometime colourably in show to be content, calling himself, servum servorum Dei, the servant of the servants of God. But he playeth in deed, Rex Regum & dominus dominantium. I know M. Dorman doth so qualify this the Pope's supremacy, terming him caput ministeriale, the ministerial head, for that Christ is the absolute head of all. But yet in respect of the whole church, as being under the Pope, he will have him called caput, the head. But I would have him to make that relation of caput, and these words servus serworum to agree, and to be both caput, and servus or minister respectu eiusdem: the head, and the servant in one respect: specially claiming such a kind of capitalitie as doth the Pope, which can not agree with the humble ecclesiastical ministery. And I think he shall find some difficulty, and much hypocrisy, and more cruelty of such a heady servant, and servile head: who if he be head, he is a cruel and frantic head, mangling his own members, as did Lyrurgus in his furious frenzy: if he be a servant, he playeth the false traitor, murdering his fellow servants, whose part, at the coming of the Lord, shallbe with hypocrites and homicides. You might therefore as good cheap grant the Pope simply to be minister ecclesiae, a minister of the church, and therefore no head, but an inferior to the Church universal. But the truth is in deed, that the Pope is neither head, nor minister of Christ's church, but a sworn enemy to both: which he well declareth by his raging fury against the true church, and members of Christ our head. M. Dorman harpeth to much upon this one string, out of tune for his purpose: I mean the example of the jewish high priest, which as it declareth that it were good, that every several church of every several nation had their several head Bishop, so doth it prove nothing that all churches of all nations must have one only head in earth, which is not possible to be. That he saith (as doth Hosius) God would by this one earthly head the Pope, show his exceeding great love towards mankind, is a manifest lie: for it is evident by experience that the Devil the homicide, the head of hell, hath, by this his principal minister the Pope, showed his murdering malice against mankind, more than ever he did by any Nerons, Domitian's, Maximines', or such like bloody tyrants. And as the devil hath used the Pope his ministers hands to all murders, so hath that prince of darkness and father of lies, by the Pope's means most darkened the light of Christ's Gospel, and hath used his polluted mouth and tongue, thereby to utter all lies and blasphemies against God, and the truth of his word. Dorman. Fol. 9 Because Christ is king of all kings, and lord of all lords, because if it so pleased him, he could rule all this Apoca. cap. 1●. Nowell. Taken out of Hosius contra Brent. lib. 5. fol. 239. world much better than it is ruled, without the help of any other [whereof he hath his absolute power considered no need] shall we therefore say, that there be not, nor need to be, any kings here in earth? When saint S. Paul called the man the head of the woman, denied he therefore Christ to be her head? King Saul when 1. Cor. 11. he was called by the Prophet Samuel caput in tribubus Israel, the head of the tribues of Israel, was God think you excluded that he should not be their head? To use 1. Reg. 15. examples more familiar, the archbishop of Cauntorburie is the head of the Bishopric, and diocese of London [as he is of all the bishoprics within his province] and yet can not a man infer upon this, that therefore the B. of London is not the head of that his diocese, Nowell. We do not stick with you, nor with Hosius your author about this name, Head, but that it may be attributed to men, as to the kings and judges of Israel, Saul, David, and such like. But I pray you consider by the way, when the scripture saith that Saul was by God made head over the tribes of Israel (which 1. Reg. 15. place Hosius, and you do allege) whether he were appointed head over the tribe of Levi also, that is, over the Clergy, as well as over other tribes: for that is to be considered. We know that Christ is the only head over all, and that he useth kings to be several heads under him upon earth in their several dominions, as sigismunde in Polonia (for Hosius useth that example) but we know aswell again that God useth no one king to be the only earthly head under him over all the world, which yet both Hosius and you should conclude, M. Dorman, if you would bring in these examples, to gather thereby that there ought to be one head in earth under Christ over all churches, throughout the whole world dispersed: for so should you have proved the saying of the Apology untrue, and our argument faulty. But where the Apology and we do thus reason: Christ is the only head over the universal church, Ergo he needeth not any other general head in earth under him, neither can any mortal man be any such head: You, like a good Logician sticking to the matter, do prove that there be divers several heads in the Church under Christ, which we never denied, no more than we deny that there be several kings & rulers in earth under God: though we deny that there is one only king or Emperor of all the world. But neither by your Logic shall you ever prove, nor by your Rhetoric persuade to any reasonable men, by such unreasonable reasoning, and examples impertinente, that there is, or can be any one head in earth under Christ, either of all the world, or of all the Church dispersed throughout the world. For to govern the whole world, or the whole Church, is the peculiar and only office of God, and Christ, and a thing unpossible to any earthly man, who hath much, and to much a do well to governs one little parcel thereof, as I have said before. And where you mingle kings & Bishops together, whose offices are distinct, and use the examples of the archbishop of Canterbury, and the bishop of London: what titles so ever your bishops, when they were in those rooms, used, or abused, I am sure they, who be now in place, take it for their chief honour, to be, and to be called also God's ministers in his church. And as you shall never prove any one head in earth temporal, or spiritual, ●u●r all: so do I affirm, that I shall more easily prove the title of heads of particular churches to appertain to kings & princes, who have by God's law the offices of ruling by dominion appointed them, than you shallbe able to maintain, that any such presumptuous title can appertain to bishops, who are forbidden dominion, and have ministery to their office: as I doubt nothing but it shall hereafter clearly fall out between you and me, to the satisuning of all godly and discreet readers, and withal, as I trust, to the confusion of all romish usurpers of that false supremacy. Yet deny I not, but that Bishops may be and have been, though improperly, named heads even by good writers, as the Schoolmaster of a prince, in that the prince is his scholar, is his head, ruler, and governor, though otherwise in deed he be the prince's subject, by him and his laws, where he offendeth, to be punished. Dorman. fol. 10. But Christ hath no such need our adversaries cry still, to have any man to be in his steed to succeed him in the whole inheritance. Name & Christum semper adesse ecclesiae fuae, & vicario homine qui ex asse in integrum succedat non egere, these be their very words in their Apology. Nowell. It is true, the Apology and we all likewise say, that neither hath Christ need of any such one only 1 head Vicar over all his church, which M. Dorman a little before doth confess himself: Neither is it Christ's Fol. 9 b. will to have any such head vicar. For though M. 2 Dorman affirm that he so would, yet shall he never by the holy Scripture, wherein Christ's will is declared, be able to prove it. thirdly it is impossible for any 3 earthly man to have, and to execute any such office of vicar general under Christ. And I am sure that M. Dorman, with the aid of all Papists in Christendom, is not able to prove these three points, or one of them, untrue. Which yet they must do, else lieth all romish supremacy in the dust. Dorman. Fol. 10. Here would I like a friend advertise them, that for Hosius the Cardinal slander by the heretics. their poor honesties sake they harp not to much on this string: lest by their so doing they come as near the heresy of Suenkfeldius, as he whom in their Apology they falsely slander there with, is far both from that & all other. For Suenkfeldius, amongst other his abominable heresies, hath also this, in my opinion the chiefest, that we ought to banish utterly from emongeste us all scripture: and (as Hosius writeth of him) this heresy Nowell. Here M. Dorman confesseth his author. All this place is taken out of Hosius contra Brentium. lib. 1. fol. 21. etc. Lib. de Haeresib. nostri temporis. of his, to derogate from the scriptures all authority, he went also about to prove by scripture. But how I pray you good readers? By what reason think you would he have proved this devilish, & most absurd doctrine? Believe me, or rather your own judgements, seeing & perceiving most plainly that I lie not, by the self same reasons, that our adversaries do use to prove, that Christ's Church here in earth, can have under him, no head or chief governor to govern the same. Thou must not be perfect in the scriptures, saith this stinking heretic Swenckfield. But why? Because forsooth we must be taught at God's mouth, because his word teacheth truly, the Scripture is not his word, but dead letters, and no more account to be made of them, then of other creatures, amongst the which they are to be reckoned. We must look to be taught from heaven, not out of books. The holy ghost useth to come from above without the help of means, as hearing, preaching, or reading the scriptures. These be that wicked heretic his foolish and unsavoury persuasions. And what other thing is it, I pray you good readers (judge indifferently) to say as the huguenots & heretics do, then to leave and rest, upon the same grounds for the banishing of the head of Christ's Church, on which the Swenckfeldians do, for the abolishing of the scripture? For the one saith, we must have no scripture because God can teach us without: the other, we must have no head of Christ's church because he is the head himself, and can rule us without any other to be his vicar. The one saith the scriptures are but dead letters, and no more account to be made of them then of other creatures: the other saith that the Pope is but a sinful man as other are, and that therefore there is no more account to be made of him, then of other sinful men. Finally the Swenckfeldians bar God of all means to work his will by, and so do the protestants, while they allow him not a minister to govern his church in external government, but tell him that he is of age and able to do it himself, and that therefore there is no remedy, but he must needs come down and give answer to all our wise demands in his own person. Nowell. A friendly man at need, and a trusty counsellor: and as good and piththie a reasoner for the Pope, as trusty friend to us: Who hath little regard to his own poor honesty, and less to the cause which he maintaineth, when of blind malice, harping upon a wrong string, worse than ever did yet any blind harper before him, he would have us seem like to Suenkfeldius, from whose vile heresies we be as far, as the Papists be near unto them: which shall, I trust, appear evidently, even by M. Dorman his own harping upon this string. Which string yet he confesseth here in his marginal note, that he learned of Harper Hosius to strike after this sort: no doubt but upon respect of his poor honesty, he thought it meet once to confess that he always doth, boldly borrowing of other, and bragging thereof as of his own: which thing is most usual, as well to his master D. Harding, as to all other the adversaries now writing. But to the matter: first that we are most contrary to Swenkefcilde and his heresies, by the books of our men written largely against them, is most manifest: and the same shall be made more evident and manifest by M. Dorman himself in this place. Suenkfeldius, saith M. Dorman, holdeth this abominable heresy, that we ought to banish utterly from amongst us all scriptures. We say, that we ought above all things to retain the holy Scriptures, and that besides them, there is nothing but error and darkness. Thou must not be perfect in Scriptures, saith this stinking heretic Swenckfield. (These be M. Dormans' words of him). We say: every Christian ought to be studious of the holy Scriptures, and to labour to attain to as great perfection therein, as mortal men possibly may in God's wisdom, contained in the same. Suenckfeldius saith, as M. Dorman reporteth, The scripture is not God's word, but dead letters, and no more account to be made thereof then of other creatures. We say, the Scriptures are the very words of GOD, the word of life: in the which, life everlasting is to be sought, and found: and that the Scriptures are the most divine gift of God, and above all other gifts, creatures and things, except only, his only son incarnate, of whom they testify, and whose blessed word they be. Swenkfeild saith, we must look to be taught from heaven, not out of books, and that the holy ghost useth to come from above, without the help of means, as hearing, preaching, and reading the scriptures. We say, we may not look for vain revelations from heaven, but must mark what Christ● the heavenly doctor and schoolmaster speaketh to us in his holy word, in that divine book of his blessed testament, as we have received commandment fró his father, ipsum audite: hear him: we say what revelation so ever be made contrary, or not agreeing with Christ's blessed Gospel, be it by an angel from heaven, it is not of the holy ghaste, but from that angel of darkness, transforming himself into an angel of light: and that therefore we must come to knowledge of God's will, and to our salvation, by hearing, preathing, or reading of the Scriptures. Now concludeth M. Dorman, after the rehearsal of these Swenkfildes' heresies, saying thus: these be that wicked heretic his foolish and unsavoury persuasions. We say, and these be our true, and to us most sweet persuasions, not only of the profitableness, but also the necessity of the Scriptures, that truth, health, light, life, and salvation is to be sought, and to be had in them, and by them, and without them can not be had: and these persuasions have we gathered not of vain revelations, but of the very same holy Scriptures themselves, as of the fountain of all infallible verity. Wherefore, M. Dorman, you have done nothing else, but bewrayed your most malicious blindness, in saying that it is no other thing, that the huguenots & heretics do: and that we do lean & rest upon the self same reasons and grounds, as did Suenkfeldius: and withal as in a credible matter, to pray the good readers to judge indifferently herein, to believe rather their own judgements than you, and to tell them that they shall see and perceive most plainly that you lie not. Whereunto we say, we trust that not only indifferent readers, but all other also most partial of your side, M. Dorman, shall see, and will judge that fire is not more contrary in nature to water, nor light to darkness, then are we to Suenkfeldius: and our true persuasions of the Scriptures, grounded upon the sure rock of the same Scriptures, contrary and repugnant to his abominable heresies, wavering upon the uncertain sands of false fantastical revelations. And therefore we doubt nothing, but all wise indifferent readers will plainly perceive, that ye lie most shamefully, and will abhor and detest your malice, an deride and hiss out your blindness, who thought them so blind that they could judge no colours: and your partial readers will blush, I doubt not, at your doltish doings, and peradventure beshrew your heart, or rather your foolish head, that hath handled their part in such slender sort. And I for our part, where you deal with us thus not unfriendly only, but most falsely, maliciously, and pestilenilie also, and do yet make a preface of a friendly advertiser of us, do say to you, as our saviour said to a like friend of his, Amice, ad quid venisti? For as you (like as did D. Harding your master) have with judas forsaken Christ the truth (whose true doctrine you call Caluins' religion) and joined against In the preface in the beginning. him with the high Priests, Scribes, and Phariseis, in hope of worldly gain: so give you us as friendly advertisement, as judas offered Christ a friendly kiss. Well, now we have truly proved, and clearly declared, that we are not only unlike, but most contrary to Suenkfeldius, and his vile heresies, by you rehearsed, let us yet see how M. Dorman would make us to seem like unto him. Swenkfield (saith M. Dorman) doth say, we must have no Scripture etc. The huguenots and heretics say, we must have no Pope of Rome to be head of Christ's universal church. Lo sir, you see a great likeness between them. Tarry, you shall hear more matter of likelihood yet. Suenkfeldius saith, the Scriptures are but dead letters: The heretics say, the Pope is but a sinful man, as other be. Hath he not trow you, showed a very great similitude between Suenkfeldius and us? But yet he concludeth at the last both earnestly and effectuously as you shall hear. Finally, saith M. Dorman, the Swenkfeldians bar God of all means to work by, and therefore they do reject the Scriptures to teach by, for that God is the teacher himself: likewise do the protestants, saith M. Dorman, whiles they allow him not one head minister to govern his universal Church in external government, because that Christ governeth it himself. Which reason we are contented that M. Dorman go away withal, when he hath proved as clearly, that it is Gods will to govern the whole Church by such a romish head: as we can clearly prove, that it is his will to teach us by the scriptures. And further M. Dorman may be ashamed to say, so do the huguenots (for so it pleaseth him to term us) so do they in likewise bar Christ of all means to work by, as doth Swenkfield. Do we so M. Dorman? Do we not allow him a minister to govern his Church, who do allow him, as he himself hath ordained, in every Church one at the least, to preach his holy will, and to minister his holy Sacraments according to his own holy institution? But M. Dorman is not content that we allow Christ every where one minister, except we also allowed him one all where over all. But good M. Dorman, it belongeth to one only Christ, to govern his Church all where: and one only man, shall have enough to do, and more than he can do, to perform the office of a good minister of Christ, some where in one only Parish, or diocese. Wherefore as we much mislike the undiscrete ambition of some worldly Princes, who when they cannot well govern one kingdom, do yet desire many: so do we utterly abhor and condemn to the Devil the author hereof, the excessive and unsatiable ambition of the bishop of Rome, who never being able yet well to govern the Church of the city of Rome, as is well known to the world, nor to rule his College of Cardinals, yet desireth the government and supremacy over all churches throughout the world: and is named in the book of his own a Sext. Decree. lib 5. tit. 9 ca 5. in glossa. Romanus pontifex totius o●bis est episcopus. Canon law, the bishop of the whole world. Yea, and not content with that spiritual Monarchy, challengeth b Sext. Decree. lib. 3. tit. 16. ca unico. in glossa. Papa totius orbis obtinet principatum. the dominion of all the world itself also to appertain to him▪ which never yet did any besides him, but the Devil himself: of whom whether the Pope hold it by inheritance, as his eldest son and heir: or by farm, as his tenant general: or as his deputy, and Bailiff errand, I know not: but sure I am, that what right so ever he hath thereto, and by what tenure so ever he holdeth it, he holdeth it of the Devil, who challengeth the same as chief Lord, and hath made offer thereof to such as would wholly serve him. But GOD I Math. 4. am sure, or our Saviour Christ never made any such offer or promise to any mortal man: nay, our Saviour Math. 20. d. 25. &. 26. Christ, as he himself refused such offer made to him: so he specially forbiddeth the affectation of such worldly dominion to all his Apostles: & consequently by them to all the Clergy. Where as M. Dorman proceedeth saying, that we tell Christ that he is of age, and able to do it himself, and that therefore there is no remedy but he must needs come down, and give answer to all our wise demands in his own person: I trust all men do know, that M. Dorman did know, that he lied leudelie when he did write this. For he knoweth right well, as shortly hereafter himself confesseth Dorman fol. 11 b. &. 12. 2. the same, that we think it enough that Christ hath once come down to teach us, and that we look for none other answer of Christ, than he hath already given in his holy Gospel, which he preached once for all in his corporal presence, and confirmed the truth of the same by visible and corporal miracles: and that therefore he speaking, and answering us in his holy word, to all demands necessary for our salvation, needeth not any corporal presence, his word and Gospel written satisfying us, as well as though we did see him, and hear him speak, with our corporal eyes, and ears. And master Dorman, and all the adversaries to the truth may be ashamed to charge us, as not allowing Christ means to work his spiritual grace by, but vexing him, by calling for his corporal presence: whereas they themselves (as those that think he can do nothing, except he be corporally present) would turmoil him every hour, and minute also from place to place, yea and would imprison him also in narrow and straight rooms, passing little ease in the tower of London manifold. And so they allowing him no means to work by, but that he must needs come down in his own person, do as justly join in this point with Suenkfeldius, as they falsely charge us therewith: whereas we do acknowledge that Christ, though corporally absent, by his divine power, is able, and doth daily and hourly work his manifold graces in us, by sundry ordinary means, such as himself hath appointed and instituted: and that by his most holy word he doth teach us as effectually, as though he were corporally present: And by his blessed Sacraments of Baptism, and of his supper he deriveth (as it were) his graces unto us: by the one regenerating and reviving us in himself, who were before unhappily borne, and dead borne in Adam: by the other nourishing & refreshing our hungry and thirsty souls, with the food of his blessed body and blood, as effectually, as though he were with us corporally present. This doth M. Dorman and the adversaries know, & therefore when M. Dorman saith, that we bar Christ of all means to work by, M. Dorman and all the world must also needs know, that M. Dorman lieth both shamefully, and wittingly too. Now that you understand how M. Dorman hath most untruely charged us as allies to Suenkfeldius, who do most abhor, and are most far from him, & his vile heresies, let me see whether, as I have showed a very great likeness & conformity to be between Suenkfeldius & the Papists, in this last point of allowing Christ no mean to work by, and therefore requiring his corporal presence: so I can prove the like conformity between them & him likewise in all other points by M. Dorman here specified. Suenkfeldius amongst others holdeth this most abominable heresy, That we ought Dorman, Fol. 10. a. to banish utterly from amongst us all Scriptures. Do not the Papists themselves, forbidding the Nowell. scriptures to be read of the laity, keeping the scriptures hid in an unknown tongue, burning the scriptures written in known language, go as near to this abominable heresy of Suenkfeldius, as we are most far from the same? Who do judge and teach, that all men, of all sorts ought with diligence to read, or hear the scriptures. Thou must not be perfect in the Dorman. Fol. 10. b. Scriptures, saith this stinking heretic Suenkfeldius: the scripture is not his word, but dead letters, and no more account to be made of them, then of any other creatures, amongst the which they are to be reckoned. Thou must not be perfect in the scriptures, say these Nowell. false Papists to all lay men: it is ignorance that is the mother of devotion: it sufficeth a lay man to have fidem implicitam, an implicate faith, yea so implicate, that the most part of seely men under Popery, can no more explicate what they believe, then can a Popiniay: yea and Popiniaye like, both rehearsing that their implicate faith, and praying in a strange language, they can no more tell what they say, then doth the Popiniay, which biddeth her dame good night masters, at mid day. And the Papists speak of the holy scriptures, not only as unreverently, and abominably, as ever did Swenkfield, but do far pass him in all outrage, calling the Scriptures most contumeliously, and blasphemously a nose of wax: and affirming it to be but an uncertain thing, and like a rule of Led appliable to every wicked sentence, and to all purposes, except it have the Pope's direction as a most certain infallible rule. I will rehearse the very words of that blasphemous beast, and as Popish a swine, as ever was Swenkfielde a stinking heretic: I mean Pighius in his Hierarchy, or defence of the Pope's supremacy, written in our time, of whom Hosius hath been as bold to borrow his reasons and authorities, as your master doctor Harding hath been bold to borrow of Hosius, and as you M. Dorman have been bold with D. Harding himself your master, to whom you own a great part of this your book, such as it is. Pighius words are these: Sunt scripturae [ut non minus verè Hierarch. li. ●▪ ca 3. fol. 103. d. quàm festiuè dixit quidam] velut nasus cereus, qui se horsum, illorsum, & in quam volveris partem, trahi, retrahi, fingique facilè permittit, & tanquam plumbea quedam Lesbiae aedificationis regula, quam non sit difficile accommodare ad quiduis volveris. Et rursum. Suprà indicavimus, Liber. 3. cap. 3▪ Fol. 211. b. scripturas facilè trahi quocunque, & velut plumbeam quandam regulam, haud difficulter applicari impiae cuivis sententiae etc. These are his very words, which in English are thus much. The scriptures (as one man, no less truly then pleasantly said, are like a nose of Wax, which will suffer itself easily to be drawn, countredrawen, and framed which way ye list: and as a certain rule of lead of the Lesbian building, the which it is not hard to apply whereto ye will. And again the same Pighius in an other place saith: We have showed before, that the scriptures may easily be drawn every way, and, like a certain Leaden rule, may without difficulty be applied to every wicked sentence. Thus far Pighius, speaking it twice or thrice, as they say, as is meet for so worthy a matter. Now compare me the estimation and saying of the Scripture used by this Papist, with Suenkfeldius his speaking of it. The scripture [saith Suenkfeldius] is not God's word, but dead letters. Pighius saith: the scripture is like a nose of Wax, like a rule of Lead. Is Swenkfielde, calling the scriptures dead letters, more wicked, then is Pighius blasphemous, in terming it a nose of wax, and withal saying, that it is so called, as truly, as pleasantly? Such a pleasure hath this peevish Papist in deriding of God's word. Is it more to be abhorred that Swenkfielde saith, the scripture is but dead letters, then that Pighius calleth it a rule of Lead? Is there any thing more dull and dead then is Lead? Is there moreover any thing more uncertain than a long latthe, or rule of Lead, ready to bend and bow every way? Swenkfielde saith, the Scripture is but dead letters: Hosius your great estate for learning and virtue, being very busy in the end of his fourth book against Brentius, in comparing the Gospel Lib. 4. contra ●r●●. fol. 178. a. written in paper and ink, with the church which he calleth the lively Gospel (as though the other should be called the dead Gospel) goeth as near to Swenkfield, as four pence do to a groat. And where he would feign have uttered his stomach plainly against the scripture, which hath so shreudlie vexed the Pope and Papists, and durst not: yet he saith thus much. Scriptura Fol. eodem. ●. quomodo profertur à catholicis, est verbum dei: quomodo profertur ab haereticis, est verbum diaboli. The scripture as it is alleged or uttered by the Catholics (to wit Papists) is the word of God: but as it is uttered of heretics (meaning us) it is the word of the Devil. Thus would Hosius, by a lewd imitation of saint Hieromes words used in his vehemency, persuade the people to think that the Scripture uttered by any, but Papists only, is the word of the devil. But the Scripture of itself is ever God's word in deed, though the abuse thereof be devilish: and therefore Hosius by hatred of the Scripture, overreaching himself, doth in deed speak thus of it untruely. And as the Scripture is neither nose of wax, nor Leaden rule, nor the word of the devil, for that it pleaseth Pighius, or Hosius so to name it: no more are we heretics, for that it pleaseth them, and other adversaries maliciously so to term us: neither be they themselves by and by Catholics, because they falsely so misname themselves. It is not their only saying, and proving of nothing, that can make either us to be, that we be not, or them not to be that, which in deed they are, the very synagogue of Satan: which is by the light of God's word made manifest, and proved in such sort now in our days, that a good part of the Christian world persuaded thereby, hath forsaken their Satanical sect of Papistry, and joined themselves to the sincere doctrine of the Gospel: whereof riseth all this their deadly hatred, and blasphemous misnaming of the Scripture. To proceed, Suenkfeldius saith, No more account is to be made of the scripture then of any other creatures, amongst the which they are to be reckoned. What saith the hoggish Papist Pighius? The scriptures may be framed, drawn and redrawen, this way, that way, every way, and applied to every wicked sense, or sentence: and therefore, as it seemeth by his judgement, the Scriptures are not only not profitable (as be all God's creatures, to the which Suenkfeldius doth compare them) but are hurtful and deceitful also, appliable to every wicked sense, like as is a long lithy Latthe, or rule of Lead, to every crooked wall: such a rule as hitherto never did yet good Carpenter use I trow: and like a nose of ware, such a creature as was never by God made. Wherefore the Papists are not only in blasphemous words against the scriptures like to Suenkfeldius, who compareth it to other Gods creatures: but in scoffing against the word of God in such abominable sort, and comparing it to such lewd instruments and mad members, as are leaden rules, and waren noses, are more horribly blasphemous, then ever was Suenkfeldius. And whereas Pighius had a natural nose, and other members of his body, by the virtue of God's word, and yet in mockage doth compare God's word so beneficial to him, to a nose of wax, by his swinish tongue uttering such blasphemous words, it is great pity, that he had not had according to his Pighishe name, an hoggish groin in steed of his nose, & a swinish body accordingly: that he might altogether as he was hoggish in mind, so likewise in outward shape of body also, have answered fully to his swinish name. No less contemptuously and contumeliously also speaketh Hosius of the Scriptures, who answering Brentius, alleging that kings also Lib. 2. fol. 66. b. had to do with god's word, and proving the same by the example of David, and Solomon kings of Israel, who by the motion of gods holy spirit, put in writing those godly psalms, and heavenly instructions, which have been of all ages and times accounted in the body of the Canonical scriptures, hath these words. Scripsit david psalmos aliquot, si quid Athanasio credimus, quinque tantùm. Qui ni scriberet? ne nunc quidem regi prohibetur aut principi, quo minus aut rythmos, aut Psalmos, aut carmina scribat, quibus Dei laudes celebret. Scribimus indocti, doctic poëmata Horatius. passim. Which in english is thus much to say: David did write a few Psalms, if we give any credit to Athanasius, but five only. Why should he not so write? neither is a king or prince forbidden at this time, but he may write rhymes, or Psalms, or verses to praise God thereby: Learned and unlearned writ poetries every where. Thus far Hosius: who is not content, to the derogation of the authority of kings and the Scriptures jointly, to compare David his psalms, being of undoubted authority, (as written by the inspiration of the holy ghost, and of the body of the canonical scripture, and approved & alleged by our Saviour Luc. 24. Christ) with rhymes only written by Princes in our days: but also by a blasphemous derision, to match them with fabulous poesies, written by learned, unlearned, it maketh no matter with him. I am sure, had any written or said so much in god's church under the old law, against the Prophets, Psalms, or the law (for so Christ doth divide the holy Scriptures of Luc. 24. f. 44. the old Testament) as here hath Hosius written, he should, according to the judgement of the law, have, like a wicked blasphemar, be stoned to death. But blasphemy levit. 24. against God and his holy scriptures, is with our adversaries a sport. Daily and most horrible blasphemies against Christ are suffered in the jews by the Pope, and they nevertheless remain the Pope's friends, specially in need of money. Only a word against that false usurper of Rome, and his lewd traditions is avenged with sword, faggot, and fire most cruelly, upon those that do profess Christ's name, and all the articles of the Christian faith. Which, amongst many others, is not the least proof that the Pope is Antichrist: for that he doth thereby declare, that he preferreth himself, and his own traditions, before Christ & his gospel: avenging himself so extremely upon the contemners of his said traditions, and permitting blasphemers against God, our saviour Christ, & the holy scriptures to remain not only unpunished, but also his dear friends. But let us proceed with M. Dormans' rehearsal of Suenkfeldius heresies: The holy ghost useth to come from above, without the help of Dorman fol. 10. b. means, as hearing, preaching, or reading the scriptures. We must look to be taught from heaven, not out of books, saith Suenkfeldins. Do not you Papists say the same? have not you given over preaching of gods word yourselves, & barred the people from reading, & hearing of it, by your cruelty, & close keeping of it in a language unknown to the people, and burning the books of the scripture transiated for the people's understanding? Are not you the right heirs of those Phariseis, whom Luc. 11. g. 52 our saviour speaketh of, that have taken away this key of knowledge of god's word, and neither will enter in yourself, nor suffer other that would, to entre? And thus laying aside preaching yourselves, and burning other that do preach, and barring the people of God from reading and hearing of his word, you do say even as did Suenkfeldius, that the holy ghost useth to come from above into your Popish church, without all help of means, as hearing, preaching, or reading of the Scriptures, which you will by no means suffer so to be used in the church, as it may be understanded. Are not you those, who, contrary to god's commandment, that the book of the law should not depart Deut. 6. b. 6. etc. out of the hands, and from the eyes of his servants, have either such books as few can understand, either burn such books of gods law as all may understand: for that you will not have them to learn of god's book, but only of such traditions, as are revealed to your church from heaven, as you say? Thus you see good readers, I trust, evidently, how that M. Dorman hath most unjustly charged us, and that we are as far from Suenfeldius vile heresies, as the Papists in all points by M. Dorman rehearsed, agree and join most justly with them: as I have declared by the very words of Pighius, D. hardings chief author, and by Hosius, M. Dorman his peerless pearl for learning and virtue, as he sayeth. Which Hosius gave occasion to M. Dorman to make mention of Suenfeldius in this place: as partly before, and more plainly now hereafter doth appear. Dorman. fol. 11. And thus whilst moste shamefully to the great dishonour of the whole realm (under whose name as it were that farthel of lies, their apology was sent abroad) they have not been ashamed, to charge with this heresy of Suenkfeldius, one of the greatest estates, both for learning and virtue that at this day Christendom hath: we may see that they have not only showed themselves to be very wicked, and shameless men, (the truth to their utter and perpetual infamy and shame, had they any, plainly to the contrary, in the worcks of him, whom they so slandered, bearing witness against them) but are also run into the same grounds whereon Swenkfilde builded his heresy, their own selves. Nowell. I trust that who so ever shall read that conformity between the papists and Suenkfeldius, and both their heresies before declared, and specially by the words of Pighius, and Hosius himself, shall understand that Hosius was not without cause charged with some affinity to Suenkfeldius his heresy, and with contempt & blasphemy against God and his holy scripture, wherewith Hosius writings do abound, and bear witness most plenteously thereof: and that therefore it is no shame at all to the author of the apology, to bear witness of the truth: the which apology yet once again M. Dorman with one word, after his manner, confuteth, calling it a farthel of lies. But every word that M. Dorman speaketh, is not gospel. Although he have here in this his book packed us up such store of lies, that he might more justly have entitled it a Lighter laden with lies, than a farthel of lies, yet shall he, and all his fellows find it more easy for them, to send us over a Hulk or twain full fraughted with such lies, as this and other their books swarm withal, than to answer that little apology to any purpose, term he it never so contemptuously. Concerning Hosius, so great an estate of Christendom, I witted not of it before. Sure I am that in Polonia his country he is of the meaner sort of bishops there: and what should make him so great an estate beside, I know nothing, but his Cardinal's hat: which how much so ever M. Dorman esteemeth, yet the truth is, that originally a Cardinal is but a person or vicar of one of the parish churches in Rome, or there about in the country. For after that Histor. Floren tinae lib. 1. fol. 40. b. & 45 b. the Popes had injuriously, and violently put the people of Rome from the election of the said Popes, being but bishops of Rome (which election of right appertained to them jointly with the clergy) and had given full authority to the persons and vicar's of the parishes in Rome, that they alone should elect the Pope: Pope paschal the first of that name, to adorn these Papal electors with some solemn title, named these single sole clerks, Cardinals: and Pope Nicolas the second of that name, confirmed the same: as is in the Florentine history declared. But yet hitherto were these Papal electors footmen, for that they were not Lib. ●●. as yet able to pay for their horse meat in Rome, where provender is dear: & because they had changed their name, and not mended their livings, they went appareled as yet, like other comen curates, no better than our Cardinals in Paul's cathedral church, yea many of them far worse. This uncomeliness pope Innocentius the fourth of that name wisely considering, saith Platina, Statuitut Cardinals equo in publicum Platina in vita Innocentij. ●. vecti, galero rubrouterentur, honestandi ordinis causa. That is to say: He made a statute or order, that the Cardinals should ride on horseback when they came abroad, and should were a red hat, for the honesty of the order. Loo sir, a marvelous estate in the Christian world that Hosius hath attained too, to ride on horseback (which by like, he might not do before, by virtue of his Varmiense bishopric in Polonia) and to wear a red hat. I think the serving men of England of late years, using scarlet caps, as broad as hats, and, when they went abroad any thing far, riding also, have well left that usage, though not of riding, yet of wearing red upon their heads: else might they have perhaps run in danger of the Pope's curse, by such presumption, so to ride, and to wear red, as do his Cardinals. And lest ye think I do but jest, Pope Paul the second, about an. 100 years ago, as saith the same Platine, Publico decreto mandavit, proposita poena, ne quispiam bireta coccinea (ita appellant capitis tegmen) praeter Cardinals In vita Pauli secundi. ferret: quibus etiam primo pontificatus sui anno pannum eiusdem coloris dono d●dit, quo equos, vel mulas sternerent, dum equitant. Voluit praeterea in decretum refer, ut galeri Cardinalium ex serico coccineo fierent, sed id quo minus etc. That is to say: Pope Paul the second, by public decree commanded, and that upon a pain appoineted, that no man should wear a scarlet birret, cap, or hat (so they call the covering of the head) saving only the Cardinals: to whom also, the first year of his Papacy, he gave cloth of the same colour, to cover their horses, or mules withal, whiles they ride. Yea and further he would have made a decree, that the hats of the Cardinals should be made of silk scarlet. But that this was not decreed, those letted, which judging rightly, said, that the pomp of the church was to be diminished, not to be increased with the hurt of Christian religion. Thus far Platine. Now you see the parish priests of Rome, who from Peter's time, until Paschalis the first (which was about eight hundredth years) were not able to pay for their horse bread, mounted now upon Mules, and not only themselves, but their Mules also overspredde with scarlet: that they may be worthy chaplains of that purpled strumpet, that S. john in his revelation speaketh of, being Apoc. 17. clothed in red scarlet, and drunken with red wine, and more drunken with the red blood of the sainetes of God. This is that great estate, which M. Dorman braggeth that Hosius is come to, of a Bishop in his country, become a parish priest in Rome. For that is the office of a Cardinal in deed: as to this day the very titles of their Cardinallike dignities do testify. Cardinalis tit. Sanctae Priscae, as was this Pope Pius the Platina in vitis Pontificum, & Onuphri●. fourth that now is, before his Papacy. And Pope Paulus the third, and Pope Paulus the fourth, were before Cardinals Ostienses, either of Ostia a town not far from Rome, or of Ostiensis porta, a gate in Rome, of the parish next to the which gate, they were by like persons. Pope Marcellus. 2. Cardinalis tit. S. Crucis in Jerusalem, which is a parish church in Rome. Pope julius. 3. before Cardinalis Praenestînus, of Praeneste a town near to Rome. Pope Clemens. 7. Cardinalis tit. S. Laurentij in Damaso, a parish church in Rome. Pope Hadrianus. 6. antè Cardinalis tit. Pammachij, a parish church in Rome. Pope Leo. 10. antè Cardinalis S. Mariae in Dominico, a parish church in Rome. And our two country men, Cardinal Poole, & Cardinal Wolsey, the one Cardinalis tit. S. Mariae in Cosmedin, the other tit. S. Ceciliae, two parish churches in Rome. Pope Pius. 3. antè Cardinalis tit. S. Eustachij. Pope Innocentius. 8. antè Cardinalis tit. S. Lucina. Pope Xistus. 4. tit. S. Eudoxiae. Pope Paulus. 2. tit. S. Marci, four parish churches in Rome, with many such like, extant in Platinae and Onuphrius: but I thought it sufficient to note the Cardinalities, which these last pope's possessed before their papacy. Finally, Hosius himself is Cardinalis tit. S. Laurentij: of a bishop in his country, by a notable promotion, become curate of S. Laurence parish. I marvel that M. Dorman doth not brag of the ease, as well as of the honour that Hosius hath gotten by his Cardinal's hat: that he shall not be compelled in his own proper person to meet great estates on the way, but by the privilege, and after the manner and custom of the court of Rome, may send his moil with a lackey to meet them, so that his Cardinal's hat hang upon the pommel of his saddle for honour's sake, by the figure Synecdoche, continens pro contento, a cardinals hat for a cardinals head: such is the guise of the court of Rome, deriding princes and great estates, yea and all the world too. This ease with this honourable hat hath Hosius attained: other great gain I think he hath none. For the greatest pension that the Pope's holiness giveth yearly to his Cardinals, is a 1000 crowns: & that pension he giveth to such poor chapleines, as have not yet two or three bishop rikes, or abbacies to find them Cardinallyke. Neither giveth he it frèely, but they pay sweetly for it to the holy father, who selleth sacra ac prophana omnia: juxta regulam, Omnia venalia Romae: according to the lore of his first predecessor, whose known sentence is, Quid vultis judas Ischarioth. mihi dare? Unless Hosius, for his pains taken in writing for the defence of the Papacy, now in danger of utter ruin, be more lubberally dealt with, than others hitherto usually have been. Though I have been long about this great estate (good reader) yet I think it neither unpleasant, nor unprofitable to thee to understand the origine, progress, and fine of this great estate of Cardinals: who, being originally poor parish priests, leaving their cures, and usurping all worldly dignity, are become meet chaplains to that false uppermost usurper, who being in deed the bishop of one only cite, a little parcel of the universal world, challengeth the supremacy not only over all the church of Christ, dispersed throughout the world, Sext. Decret. lib. 5. tit. 9 ca 5. in glossa. & lib. 3. tit. 16. cap. unico, in glossa. but also the dominion over all the world itself, and all the kingdoms therein: and therefore hath he made his pelting parish pries; tes, princes peers, nay, their superiors, that he might have chaplains meet for so great a Lord as he is. Now concerning Hosius his great learning, it is not without cause that M. Dorman doth so exceedingly advance it. For as M. Dorman hath borrowed this his book of D. Harding, so hath D. Harding borrowed all this his and your treaty of the Pope's supremacy of Hosius: And Hosius hath borrowed it of Pighius Hierarchy, and Pighius hath borrowed it of drunken Eckius, the founder of all these mattiers in our days. And most true it is, that there is not one reason, nor authority almost in all that great volume of Hosius against Brentius, containing five several books, but that he hath had out of Pighius Hierarchy, and Alphonsus de haeresibus, after which sort any mean man may be counted learned. This I am able to prove as true, as I have hitherto, I trust, proved you M. Dorman a liar in all you have hitherto written, and doubt nothing so to proceed with you to th'end of your lewd lies, laden in this your Lighter of false fables. Wherefore Hosius deserveth the name of the Compilator, rather than the author of that great book, written against Brentius little book, entitled Prolegomena, for that he hath stolen all his authorities, and reasons out of the said Pighius his Hierachie, and Alphonsus de Haeresibus, as all learned reading the said books shall most easily and plainly perceive. Yea and in compiling them together, it is judged upon probable conjectures, by the style and poetical phrases, and verses unmeet for Hosius age and vocation, that as he hath borrowed the matter of his books, so hath he had the help of other in penning of the same: and yet may he well call the books his own, as bought with his own money, and large rewards bestowed upon his style write. Concerning his great virtue, though I know not his life, yet I judge it a worthy matter for M. Dorman his commendation, and himself worthy of the court of Rome. But I can say little herein: only this can I say, that his neighbours dwelling nearer him, than I Iacob' A●dreae contra Hosium. fol. 155. & multis locis. do, a good sort of hundredth miles, do in printed books object to him, that his cardinals hat, I would say, head, will be now and then overladen with Polonishe pots: I know not truly, or otherwise, but as his neighbours do say. Dorman. fol. 11. For god's sake good Christian readers, for your own soul's sake, and the love that you bear thereto, give ear to no such seditious voices, how ever they be cloaked with the name of Christ, which the devil than doth most inculcat, when he would drive us soonest from him. Nowell. I trust that all good Christian readers, for that love that they bear to God, who is the truth, will give no ear to such false fables, as M. Dorman and other adversaries of the truth do publish in such lewd lying books as this is: and that upon respects of the health of their souls, they will fly far from the bloody Butcher of Rome: who, using the cloak of Christ's name only, denieth him in deed: and placing in his place his peevish pardons, and other popish pelfrie, destroyeth as well Christian men's souls by his poisoned doctrine, as he doth murder their bodies by the most cruel kind of death, that the Devil his father and he can devise. And by the way note, that to speak truly of a foreign false Polonish Papist, is with M. Dorman accounted sedition: as though, because he is a Cardinal, he were therefore our lawful magistrate: which, witted I, were true, I would give more reverence to our Cardinals in Paul's church, than I hitherto have done. And sure I am, they deserve for their Cardinalshippe, as much honour, as doth Hosius, yea and more too, were false opinion banished, & things truly, as they are in deed, weighed, and esteemed. For they yet according to their origine, minister the sacraments, & visit the sick, as is the proper office of Curates to do: whereunto Christian princes, once at the last I trust awaking, will bring these personate, & visered Roman parish priests, from their usurped worldly pomp and dominion: and that the said Princes will reduce the Pope himself likewise, from his phantasied supremacy over the universal church, to his peculiar cure of the church of Rome. And thus I let this Hosius, one of the greatest estates, both for learning and virtue, that this day Christendom hath (for so M. Dorman saith) for this time alone, with his Cardinal's scarlet hat, and his moil trapped according for his estate. Dorman. fol. 11. What other thing did their forefather's Chore, Dathan, Numer. 1●. and Abyron, in rebelling against Moses, and Aaron the ministers of almighty God? What other persuasion used they to the people? what other reason brought they to allure from their obedience to rebellion, from quiet rest, to seditious wandering without a head, the flock of God: then the very same, that these miserable men of our time do? Their apology saith, that there The protestants reason as Chore Dathan, and Abyron did. Numer. 16. needeth here in the church no head to govern it, because Christ is always with it. And did not those wicked men in their rebellion against Moses and Aaron use the same reason, when they told them to their face. Sufficiat vobis, quia omnis multitudo sanctorum est, & in ipsis est dominus? Let it suffice you, that all the multitude is holy, and they have God present with them, Cur elevamini super populum domini? And why then take you upon yourselves the rule over the people of our lord? As who would say, having no need of any other ruler, God being with them. But as almighty God was then amongst his people and used yet nevertheless the ministry of men: so is Christ (no doubt) our saviour now present always with his church, and chief head and governor thereof, and yet governeth he the same by man. And as Chore, Dathan, and Abiron, be gone before, swallowed alive by hell, there to taste of those rewards which for such rebellious wretches are prepared: so must our Chore and his companions follow their trace, unless by their repentance they mollify, and assuage the just wrath of God. Nowell. This history is by many adversaries alleged against us, as unlawfully rebelling against the Pope: specially by Cardinal Poole against king Henry the Cardinalis Polus lib. ●. de eccle. Romanae primatu. fol. 19 &. 20. eight. Concerning the matter itself, seeing Chore, Dathan and Abiron, were so horribly punished for rebellion against Moses and Aaron, and certain it is, that of these two, Aaron was the high priest, and that yet Moses was his superior, it followeth therefore, that Moses, to say, the prince of the people, is above the bishop, or high priest (which you can not abide) or else to avoid that matter, you must say (as you some where do) that Moses was priest also: which, if it be true, enforceth that there were two high priests at once over the people of God, and so is your assertion of the supremacy of one only high priest over the whole church, quite overthrown. For you say, M. Dorman, That you have perceived, that God in that people in Dorman, fol. 7. b●. their law, and priesthood, shadowed out unto us, like a cunning workman, the whole form and proportion of his church. Wherefore, M. Dorman, I pray you mar not gods proportion, and form of his church: but as you will needs have an Aaron, or high priest in the said church, so let us also have a Moses to be his superior in the same. For which way soever you turn Exod. 15. a. b. 1. Pe●ri ●. you, sure I am, that by the scriptures, the title of priesthood may as well appertain to a christian Prince, as it did to Moses: so that there is no let, nor lack therein, but that a christian Prince may as well be superior to the high priest, or bishop, as was Moses to Aaron. To proceed: Chore, Dathan, and Abyron, rebelled against Moses and Aaron, who were specially by God appointed to be their governors, and his ministers: but what appertaineth that to us, who do obey our natural Prince, appointed by God to be our governor, & all as well civil magistrates, as ecclesiastical ministers of god under our Prince? And therefore do we, as we must needs, renounce the authority of that foreign usurper of Rome, sworn enemy to our prince, and country: who is not our governor, nor the lawful minister of almighty God, but a foreign false usurper, and the devils bailie general, challenging such a superiority, as none can hold by any tenure, but from the Devil himself. It is you Papists that are the successors of the rebels, Chore, Dathan, and Abyron: who leaving the obedience due to your own natural Princes, for the serving of a foreign false usurper of Rome, do rebeli not only against Moses, that is to say, your governor by God appointed, but against God himself also. You rebel Rom. 13. against God, and his servant Moses always: you set up and maintain Idols, and Idolatry, contrary to the manifest word of God given by his minister Moses. You do charge the Apology unjustly: For it saith Exod. 10. truly, that Christ needeth no such one only head over all his church, as the Pope would seem to be: neither can there be any such, but Christ himself only, as hath at large been before declared. But when M. Dorman so speaketh, as though we would have no governors at all in Christ's church (for that we refuse that one usurper) he doth deal deceitfully with the simple, and impudently with us. For we acknowledge, that as Moses and Aaron were gods ministers, by him appointed to govern his peculiar people Israel: so hath God likewise appointed to every several country Eccle. 17. their Moses and Aaron, their own Princes, and pastors or bishops, which ought likewise to be obeyed, as Moses and Aaron were to be obeyed of the Israelites. And that those who do disobey them, do sin by rebellion, as did Chore, Dathan, and Abiron. This appeareth to be true by S. Cyprian, who doth allege Lib. 4 epist. 9 & lib. 3. epist. 9 this example of the rebellion of Chore, Dathan, and Abiron, against such as be stubborn and disobedient to their own several bishops, as was one Pupianus to himself: and as was the African Deacon against Rogatian his African bishop. In the which epistle also S. Cyprian allegeth many other places of the scripture (falsely applied now adays to the proof of the Pope's supremacy) for the authority of every bishop in his own diocese. But this place of Douteronomium is neither by S. Cyprian, nor any other but only Papists, alleged for proof that the bishop of Rome is to be obeyed by any, saving only Romans, or Italians his inferiors. Concerning the reason made by Chore, Dathan, & Abiron, that the people ought not to obey their governors, because they be all holy, & that therefore the magistrates ought not to lift themselves above the lords people, it is not our reason, as M. Dorman saith: it is the reason of the popish swarms of their counterfeit hypocrites, falsely called religious: yea & of the whole popish clergy, who have procured of their father of Rome, immunities from all obedience to their natural Princes appointed by God over them, as was Moses over the Israelites. It is therefore, canon Chore, Dathan Dane Monk, and Abbot Abiron, with their complices of false Friars, and Multitudo fanctorum. other hypocrites, that were so holy shavelings, that they might not for any crime, were it never so heinous, be tried by the laws of their country, nor answer before their natural prince. They cried, as did Chore, Dathan, and Abiron, they were the holy people of the great lord of Rome, and that no temporal Populus domini Papae. lord might lift up himself above them. And thus they showed themselves to be the very children of their forefather's Chore, Dathan, & Abiron, as truly, as M. Dorman doth falsely object it to us. Now whereas M. Dorman allegeth the apology, as thus reasoning, that the church hath no need of any other ruler, because Christ is with it: Truth it is, if M. Dorman do mean one only head of the universal church. For Christ needeth no such general governor, seeing he is both present himself continually by his spirit, as he promised, & also for that he hath in every peculiar country & church, his Moses & Aaron, that is to faith, his several deputies in his steed every where here in earth: for that no one mortal man can possibly suffice to the governance of the whole world or church, which words following in the Apology, M. Dorman of apollo. Anglican b. 1. pag. 2. Sapientiae. 8. a. 1. etc. his accustomed sincerity omitteth utterly. For it is the especial work of God's omnipotent wisdom, as first to have created the whole world, and instituted the whole church, so universally to govern the fame, reaching mightily from end to end over all, and sweetly disposing or governing all things: where as seely man overcharged with the governance of a little parcel, is ever found guilty, when it shallbe said unto him, Red rationem villicationis tuae: Tender an account of thy Stewardship. At the las●e he concludeth Luke. 16, a. 2. with a terrible denunciation, as it were thundering in a kinderkinne, and lightning out of a bright Basin most terribly, that we must follow Chore and his fellows swallowed quick by hell, as rebellious wretches against the Pope's Monarchy, unless we repent. But we fear no necessity of such horrible damnation, upon M. Dormans' Must. For as we are most far from rebelling against our natural sovereign, and other Gods ministers appointed to govern us, and therefore no partakers of Chore, and his fellows rebellion, so trust we in God to be most far from their most horrible destruction. And we give warning to M. Dorman, with his master doctor Harding, and all such as they be, who for maintenance of a foreign Pharaoh, against their conscience (as is to be feared) do disobey their own natural prince, and that upon the pretence of holiness and spirituality, and are therein most like to Chore, Dathan, and Abyron (rebelling against their own special governors by God appointed, as they did) that they make speed by unfeigned repentance to mollify Gods most just wrath, that they follow not Chore, Dathan, and Abyron, in horrible damnation, as they have followed them in damnable rebellion. Dorman. Fol. II. But yet let us good readers, that nothing may remain, that might in any wise seem to blemis he this truth, go one step farther. For as yet will our adversaries I know well say, that I never came where it grew. For our case, say they, is far otherwise, than you take it: seeing that we utterly deny not, that Christ worketh by means, but only serve from you, in that we take those instruments and means, to be other than you do. For the scripture, we say, which Christ hath left to us, is the true mean, whereby in all doubts and controversies, we may sufficiently content and satisfy ourselves. This is that judge, which can not deceive, this is that touchstone that can not lie. Thus say our adversaries, with whom in that that they appeal to the scriptures no man is offended, yea we praise them therefore, The scripture not able to determine all the controversies that ma●e ●●●apon the m●●nyng of the letter. and do the like ourselves. But in that that they hold the Scripture to be of itself alone, to end and determine all controversies, rising upon the doubtful meaning of the letter, able and sufficient: therein we utterly descent from them, and as we think, not without great cause. Nowell. Concerning the discussing of doubts and controversies by the Scriptures, it hath been before sufficiently Fol. 69. etc. entreated of. But M. Dorman abuseth all men to much: for as we do say that the Scripture being the word of GOD, is a lantern to our feet, a Psal. 118. light to our steps, a touch stone of trial, the loadestarre in the dark nights, the way to walk in to life everlasting etc. so do we acknowledge, that we must have bishops, and pastors well learned in the same Scripture, or word of God, to expound the same unto us, to rebuke our vices by the same, to exhort us to all virtues by the same, and finally, by the same, as a salve for all sores, to cure all our diseases, as becometh such heavenly Physicians, & by the same words of God, as the food of our souls, like our Spiritual pastors, to feed us unto life everlasting. And so we refuse no lawful helps with the scriptures, for the determining of doubts and controversies, and the attaining of other benefits (though we refuse one unlawful usurper) but do agree most directly with God's ordinance expressed in Deuter. 17. in resorting to our own bishops, and pastors, as did the Israelites to theirs, in all doubts, or other necessary cases. Dorman. Fol. 12. For omitting here, that almighty God commanded Nowell. Borrowed out of Pighius Hierarch. lib. 4. cap. 3. fol. 149. & Hosius lib. 2. contra Bren. Fol. 59 in the old law as before you have heard, that his people the jews, in doubtful questions arising upon the law, should resort to the priests, and to him that was the chief judge for the time, to be resolved therein: and bade them not, for the trial thereof which sense Deuteron. 17. were most true, to lay and confer one text with an other [which without doubt had he known it to be the best and surest, as it is the readiest and easiest way he would not have let to have done:] experience also hath taught us the contrary thereof. Nowell. It is true M. Dorman, we have heard this your only Deuteron. 17. Dorman. f. 4▪ touched folio 7. prosecuted at large, fol. 9 b. & foli. 12. ●. place of Scripture (which yet is most impertinent to your purpose) before: yea and that four times, in five leaves space too: which argueth your miserable distress, who in this so necessary a part of your treaty of the Pope's supremacy, and the foundation of all, having but one only place of the Scripture, which in your opinion made a show for you (though the same in deed is not only impertinente to your cause, but directly against it also, as hath been before at large declared) Fol. 59 etc. are driven to your art, by oft repeating of that one, to make a show to the simple readers as of many places. And here belike M. Dorman remembering the proverb, Crambe bis, (much more ter, quater & ampliùs) that to much of one thing is nought, specially, if it be unsavoury, mollifieth the matter by a pretty figure, saying, that he will omit it, and yet doth largely prosecute the same, and will needs still wrest this place to, the proof of one only head Priest over all churches of all nations, and languages, whereto it serveth no more, then doth Butter to stop an Oven. For how can all nations resort to one only man? How can all nations understand one man, had he more languages than ever had Mithrydates? How can one man, never yet able to suffice to the regiment of one chuche, be able to sustain the charge of all Churches? How can he that is not faithful over a little, be found worthy Luke. 19 c. 17. to have the whole world committed unto him: seeing the diligent and faithful servant was made ruler over ten cities only? Solomon endued with 2. Para. 1. b. 10. all wisdom, said of one nation being under him: Quis potest hunc populum tuum dign, qui tam grandis est, judicare? That is to say, Who can be able well to judge & govern this thy people, which is so great? But who is so bold as blind Baiarde the Pope, who thinketh himself of ability to judge, & govern all people? showing himself most unlike unto unto Solomon, who having but one nation to govern, asked wisdom of God, as most necessary thereto, rather than riches: The Pope having one Church of Rome to govern, and lacking wisdom thereto (as by the dissolute disorder, and detestable enormities of that Church above all other, appeareth) would yet have the regiment of all Churches: not well to govern all (which is impossible) but to scrape to himself theriches of them all, as the experience of his practice hath well proved. But as the Pope herein is most unlike to wise and humble Solomon, so is he most like to subtle and proud Satan, ascending with him in presumption, and desiring to be like in the governance E●●ie. 14. c. 13. 14. etc. of the whole Church, and world, with the highest God, whose only and proper office this universal regiment of all is, unpossible to any man, though the Pope never so much, with his grandfather Satan, Luke. 4. a. 6. Esa. 14. d. 15. etc. do claim all to be his own: and therefore with him troubleth all countries, kingdoms, and nations: but according to his presumption with Satan, shall his ruin with him be. Saint Cyprian, and after him Cyprian. lib. 1. epist. 3. African. Concil. circa tempus Bonifacii. 1. ca 251. saint Augustine, with. 217. Bishops more in the African council, seeing the inconvenience of foreign far judges, and governors, and the commodity of several judges and governors in several countries, and Cities, decreed, that no man of their Country, should sail over the sea, to go to Rome, or other places, there to be resolved of their doubts, but that every several bishop should have the people of their several bishoprics, or Dioceses, obedient unto themselves, and all controversies amongst them arising, to be determined at home. And Saint Cyprian and other ancient doctors allege this place of Deuteron. constantly for the several government of every bishop in his own diocese: but none of the old doctors ever alleged it for the universal regiment of one over all Bishops, and in all dioceses: as hath been at large Fol. 60. in priore editione. before declared. Wherefore the applying of this place to that use and purpose, being a new devise and invention of the Pope's proctors in these latter days, as it lacketh all antiquity, so is it void of all authority. But seeing M. Dorman hath so often alleged this place, for that he had none other, and I in every place have said somewhat to the same: For avoiding of tediousness, I will omit to rehearse at large things before said, and will remit thee (good reader) to the. 59 leaf of this book before: where this place is both alleged by master Dorman, and consequently answered at full, and as I trust, to the satisfying of all reasonable readers. Only this will I here again rehearse (seeing M. Dorman calleth us from the Scriptures to the Pope, and would abuse this place thereto) that the jewish Deut. 17. b. 10. Fancies quod cunque dixerint & do●uerint te juxta legem eius. high Priest himself, by the very words of the same place, is bound to teach, and judge according to the word of God, and not at his will, and pleasure. * Pighius Hie●arch li. 4. ca 3. fol. 149. b. Hosius contra Brenti. fol. 59 Pighius I know, and Hosius also, do here find fault with the old translation, for that it maketh against their purpose. But all other Papists will allow none, but the old translation only: which M. Stapleton also earnestly in his late Englished book, doth constantly affirm anclie to be allowed: which might suffice Pighius & Hosius I trow. But though nothing can suffice them, yet to the satisfaction of the good reader, I do trust, that it can not be denied, but that the high Priest (as well as all others) standeth bound by other places of the Scriptures, to the obedtence and following of God's laws, in all his teachings and judgements: according as is by God commanded to all men, without exception, by these words. Non declinabitis neque ad dexteram, neque ad sinistram, ab ijs Deuter. 4. 2. 2. Deute. 5. d. 32. Deut. 12. d. 32. quae praecepit Dominus Deus vobis. Et non addetis ad verbum quod vobis loquor, non auferetis ab eo. That is to say, Ye shall not decline from the thing, which the Lord your God hath commanded you, neither to the right hand, nor the left. Thou shalt add nothing thereto, nor take any thing therefrom. I trust (I say) that Pighius, and Hosius, with M. Dorman, and such others, will confess that these sentences, and such other like, do bind as well the high priest, as all other men, that he may not do what he list, but according as God's words do lead: else if he sit judging according to the law, & command things to be done against the law (as is usual to the Pope to do) I believe S. Paul's curse will light upon him: Percutiet te deus Act. 23. a. 3. paries dealbate: God will smite thee thou overwhited Act. 4. d. 18. wall: & that we with S. Peter, & S. John may boldly say to him, & his: whether it be right in the sight of God to hear you, rather than god, judge ye. So that consequently, we be at liberty to disobete the commandment of that high priest, that shall give in commandment any thing contrary to God's word, & commandment: to the obedience whereof, as well the high priest, as any other, doth slande bounden. Now amongst other profitable studies of the scriptures, what can be more profitable, yea necessary, then by conserring the texts and places of the scriptures together, thereby to gather the true sense of every place? Which, though it sa misliketh M. Dorman, yet hath it best liked all the old writers, and doctors of the Church hitherto. Saint Augustine amongst others, whom I had rather like, and follow, then. 500 Hardynges, and Dormans', showing his liking of that conserring of places of scripture together, hath these words: Vbi autem apertius ponuntur, ibi discendum est quomodo in locis intelligantur De doctrina Christiana. li. 3. cap. 26. obscuris etc. That is to say: Where things are more plainly uttered in the scriptures, there must we learn how they are to be understanded in dark places. For that can not be better understanded, which is said of God in one place: Take thine armour and shield, and rise to help me: then of that other place, where it is read: Lord thou hast crowned us, as it were with a shield of thy good will, or favour. Thus far saint Augustine: who in the xxvij and xxviij chapter of the same book, prosecuteth that most profitable way of collation of texts of scripture at large. And the same saint Augustine in an other place, hath these Libr. 83. Question. quaest. 53 words. Quibusdam scripturarum locis apertius aliquid exponitur, quod diligens, & pius lector etiam in alijs locis in quibus minus aperitur, intelligat etc. that is to say: In some places of the Scriptures a thing is more plainly expounded, the which a diligent and godly reader may also understand in other places, in the which it is not so plainly opened. For our God, to the health of our souls, hath by the holy ghost so ordained the divine books, that he would not only feed us with plain texts of scriputures, but also exercise us with dark places of them. Thus much in that place Saint Augustine: who calleth such as so compare the scriptures together, godly, and diligent readers, whatsoever master Dorman saith of them, and he saith that such doings are healthful to our souls, though M. Dorman think, or say otherwise: and therefore by Saint Augustine's judgement it followeth, that M. Dorman with others, persuaded as he is, are no godly, nor diligent readers of the Scriptures, neither do regard the health of their souls: and therefore no marvel that they apply the Scriptures, so frowardly, and wrest them so violently, and falsely, as they do, whereof this book is an evident example. Saint Chrysostom also (as before was noted) agreeing In. 2. ca Gene. Homili. 13. Sacra scriptura seipsam exponit, & auditorem errare nonsinit. with saint Augustine, saith: that the holy scripture expoundeth itself, and suffereth not the hearer to err. Wherefore we can not but with saint Augustine, and saint Chrysostom, and other ancient and godly doctors, and fathers, much like, and praise this most profitable and wholesome conference of divers texts of the scriptures. And no doubt but the jewish priest, appointed to resolve other men of their doubts, Deuter. 17. did himself use the said conference of scriptures, as did those most godly and learned priests, saint Augustine, and saint Chrysostom both use it themselves, and also counsel other so to do: as being the best way, to them known, whereby to attain to the true understanding of the scriptures. But M. Dorman hath a great desire to bring us from the Scriptures, to the judgement of his high priest the Pope, and therefore this conference of the Scriptures together, is so far out of conceit with him, that he untruly chargeth us, for that we like it very much, as though we did therefore mislike all instructids of gods ministers. But though we do not receive the Pope's instructions (for that he is neither Gods, nor our ecclesiastical minister) yet it is well known to the world, that we seek instructions, and explications of doubts, of God's ministers and preachers of his word continually, whereas the Papists use it more rarely: and, until of late they were by us a little stirred up, they used it nothing at all: so that it seemed by their leaving of preaching, and keeping of God's word unknown in a strange language, they would neither have the doubtful questions of God's law explicate, by conferring of texts of the scripture together, nor by the voice of the priest, nor minister neither: but would have had Gods holy word wholly unknown to all the world, and all men to live, not only without explication of doubtful places of the scripture, but without knowledge of any place of the scripture at all: and in steed of God's word, to have pampered up God's people with their poisoned pap of Popery. But, saith M. Dorman, God did not command any such conference of scriptures, but only to resort to the high Priest: yet I trust M. Dorman is not ignorant, what it meaneth that God, and our saviour Christ do so earnestly exhort Deuter. 4. Per totum & all men to the diligent reading and study of the scriptures, multis locis. Psal. 1. a. 2. 3. & 118. a. 2. & multis locis. joan. 5. f. 39 Act. 17. c. 11. and do condemn the ignorance or want of knowledge thereof. And where he saith, God hath not commanded such conference of the scriptures (which yet in effect he hath commanded) it is happy that he can not show where God hath forbidden it, which if he could, he would not have failed to have done. But seeing M. Dorman setteth so much by God's commandments, and would so feign have us leave the conference of scriptures, as not commanded by God (as he thinketh) I would he should advertise the Papists his fellows, that they would once leave their Idolatry to Images, with other their superstitions, so oft, and expressedly by God forbidden, as to all godly men, is well known. Dorman. fol. 12. For amongst so many as at all times have disquieted Nowell. Translated out of Ho●ius contra Brentium li. 5. fol. 237. b. the Church, what one heretic are they able to reckon overthrown by the scriptures? Was Arrius vanquished by them? Nay, if you brought to convince him this text, Pater & egounum sumus, my father & I are one: he would tell you again that the same Christ that so said, said also pater meus maior me est, my father is greater than I What had you then won at his hands, that would tell you, that one place of Scripture must expound an other, and that therefore your place must be expounded by his? And if you would wade farther with him, he would interpret your place [as he did with the catholics] to be understand of unity in will and not in substance, and bring you scripture toe, although wrested from the true sense, that should seem well to prove his distinction. As when our Saviour prayed unto his father in this sort, pater sancte, serva eos johan. ●●. in nomine tuo, quos dedisti mihi, ut sint unum sicut et nos, keep them o holy father in thy name whom thou hast given to me, that they may be one, as we two are one. Nowell. First to M. Dormans' demand (which is the pith of all that he saith in a leaf and more next following) I answer, the Arrians, anabaptists, and all heretics, without exception, were vanquished and overthrown by the Scriptures: and that if they were not vanquished by the scriptures, they were not vanquished at all. For what though they said they were not vanquished, were they therefore not vanquished, because they would not confess it? Did the jewish high priests, Scribes, and Phariseis confess themselves vanquished by Christ and his Apostles? Were they therefore not vanquished, for that they would not grant it? I would ask again of M. Dorman, what one heretic of so many can he reckon overthrown, but by the scriptures? But whereas M. Dorman hath been continually harping upon this string, against the scriptures, labouring to bring us from them to the Pope, and his church, as he still holdeth on so to do: least I should at every occasion by him offered, with tediousness repeat the same things again, I remit the reader to the. 68 leaf of this book before, where, and in the process Folio. 68 b. 69. &. 70. etc. following, it is at large declared, that if we doubt whether we be Christians, or no, we must be resolved by the scriptures: if we doubt whether we be in the true faith, or no, we must resort to the Scriptures: if we doubt, which is the true Church, and whether we be in the same, or no, we must be certified by the scriptures: and that such as seek other means to be resolved of these, and such like doubts, otherwise than by the scriptures, shall be deceived and perish. Where also is declared that neither the Pope, nor Popish Church can be convenient and competent judges in controversies now risen, for that they are both parties, and parties accused therein: no more than the jewish high priest, with his church of Scribes and Phariseis were convenient and competent judges in the controversies between them and Christ's Apostles, for that the said high Priest, Scribes, and Phariseis were parties, yea and parties accused, and guilty too, of the death of Christ, about whom was all the controversy between them, and therefore were they most unmeet to be judges thereof. Touching the conference of the scriptures together, I did so late before at large entreat thereof, that I need not now to repeat the same again. And thus much to M. Dormans' question. Now if M. Dorman have brought in this example of the Arrians to bring us in suspicion with the simple people as favouring the Arrians, all learned and godly can cléer● us, who do know how much we do abhor the Arrians heresies, and how earnestly in our sermons & writings we do oppugn them: yea, Hosius your Hosius contra Brentium, lib. 1. foli. 24. & lib. 5. fol. 249. chief champion shall answer for us, who doth much praise our writings and doings too, against the Arrians. Dorman. Fol. 13. In the exposition and right understanding of these Nowell. Translated out of Hosius contra Brentium lib. 3. fol 170. b few words, Hoc est corpus meum, this is my body: how happeneth it that the calvinists and the Lutherans agree not, by conferring one place of the Scripture with an other, if that be so ready a way? Doth not Caluine, with all his, teach us, that the sense and true interpretation of these words, must needs be attained by the conference of one place of Scripture with an other? And to that end do they not fondly allege saint Paul calling Christ a rock, yea Christ 1. Cor. 10. calling himself a vine, when he was in deed, neither the one nor the other, but by a similitude? As though ●ohan. 15. because th'Apostle, or Christ himself useth a figure in one place, we must think that in all other he never spoke otherwise. By which abominable doctrine what letteth, if a man would be so wicked, to affirm that Christ the son of God, and second person in Trinity, were not the true and natural son of God, but by adoption only: and for that wicked heresy to bring this text, Dedit eis potestatem filios dei fieri, he gave them johan. 1. power to be made the sons of God. Which words we know being spoken by us men, must be understand by grace and adoption: and frowardly to maintain, that all the places which any good man can bring for the defence of the contrary, should be drawn to this text alleged by them, and expounded and understanded thereby. Nowell. This is M. Dormans' usage, when he can say nothing of the present case, to intermingle foreign matters, thereby to avert the reader's mind from his principal cause remaining unproved still. But how soever Calvin and Luther agree in the exposition of these few words, Hoc est corpus meum, This is my body: they agree both in this, that the Papists expound them falsely. For, to use the places by M. Dorman noted out of Hosius, he, nor all Papists with him, shall never be able to show cause, why these words, Ego sum vitis vera, I am the true vine, do not prove as well a transubstantiation, as, Hoc est corpus meum, This is my body. Is not this as plainly spoken, and as piththilie, I am a true or a very vine, as, This is my body? Nay, if Christ had said likewise, this is my true and very body, as he said, I am a true or very dine: what a rule had we then had? Christ saith, Ego sum panis: I am bread: and yet no transubstantiation of his body into bread. Why should these words, Hoc est corpus meum, This is my body, more transubstantiate bread into his body? This is fondly alleged, saith M. Dorman. If we say likewise, that all that he hath here said of the controversy of the Sacrament, out of place, leaving his purposed matter unproved, is very fond: what hath he then won? that I may use his own phrase. Dorman. Fol. 13. The anabaptists who deny the Baptism of infants, Nowell Translated out of Hosius lib. 3 contra Brentium, Fol. 170. b lean they not think you to this ground of yours? Yea truly, and good reason it is that being all heretics as you are, although in some points dissenting, yet all ioigning and agreeing in one cankered hatred against the Church, you should all use the same rules & principles. For that I may here pass over that reason of the anabaptists, which belongeth to an other place, that therefore infants must not be baptized because it is not expressed in Scripture [a principle also of your religion] but delivered unto us by tradition: say they not also, that they have the scripture plain for them against us? Where it hath, Qui crediderit & baptizatus fuerit, saluus erit, He that believeth and is baptised Mar●. 16. shallbe saved: and again in an other place, una fides, unum baptisma, one faith, one baptism. By which places say they it appeareth, that faith must go before, and baptism follow after. And when the Catholics to repress, and utterly overthrow this brutish and beastly opinion answer: that for infants thus baptised the faith of the church is sufficient, and accounted for theirs: cry they not as you do, that in this controversy one place of scripture must expound an other? And that therefore, where as the scripture requireth in him that is baptised faith, that they must have it of their own, according to the Apostles saying, fides ex auditu, faith cometh by hearing, which infants can not have, and according to the saying of the Roma. 10. Prophet, justus ex fide sua victurus est, the just man shall live by his own faith. Abacuc. 2. Nowell. First to M. Dormans' false slander we answer, we be no heretics: no Arrians: no anabaptists: we teach of Christ's divinity, and of Baptism, and all other things, according to God's word. Where he saith, the Catholics do repress and overthrow the brutish opinions of the anabaptists, we answer: that it is most certain, & well known to the world, that our men have said, and written more against them, than ever did the Papists, Wherefore we be therein, as in all other things in deed, the Catholics, and not they. Dorman. Fol. 13. I am sorry that in answering to this fond reason, I have been compelled to make any mention of such horrible heresies as these are, which I had much rather, were with their first authors buried in hell, from whence they came, where neither they, nor their name might ever hereafter offend the conscience of any good Christian man. But as I have necessarily laid before your eyes these, that by a part you may judge of the whole: so have I willingly stayed myself from rehearsing whole swarms of such opinions, as being of all men taken for confessed heresies, only depend upon this one false ground, that we need here in earth no other judge, to decide and determine doubts arising upon the scripture, than the scripture itself: which being [they say] laid and conferred together one text with an other, will not fail to bring us to the right understanding thereof. Nowell. What other necessity, I pray you, put the man to this sorrow he speaketh of, or compelled him to such mention, but only the defect of proofs, for his purposed matter of the necessity of one head over all the church: which lack he is driven to supply with such digressions of the Swenkfeldians, Arrians, and anabaptists, altogether impertinente to his purpose, and with declaiming against the scriptures and word of God. Which distress also drove him destitute of matter, so often to repeat that one silly similitude and evil likelihood between the jewish high Priest, and the Pope. And yet M. Dorman thus digressing and swerving himself, is not ashamed to speak to the Bishop of Sarum, after this sort: I most heartily pray you, Dorman, Fol. 110. a. keep you without straying from the matter, or alleging of proves impertinente, as close as you can etc. This is M. Dormans' request, whereof himself hath given an example, as you here may see. Now if all heretics and heresies were, as M. Dorman wisheth, buried in hell, then should the Pope with all his Papists be buried together with them, and we might live still, and with quietness praise Gods holy name, & preach his blessed word, which master Dorman doth set so light by. To the rest we say, that as for resolving of doubts we do with saint Augustine, as is before rehearsed, think the conference of scriptures to be most necessary: so do we not refuse any other help of learned bishops, as our guides and directors by the same Scriptures, to all truth. But such a one only supreme head, or judge over all the Church, as M. Dorman would have to be consulted of all men of all countries and languages, upon all doubts arising, neither do we acknowledge, neither is it possible any such to be. And we say, that such as have challenged or pretended so to be, are most presumptuous, & most false usurpers. Now where M. Dorman would prove the conference of Scriptures a vain or evil thing, because the Arrians, and anabaptists used it: and us to be heretics, as they be, because we use the same grounds, to wit, conferring of scriptures together: he might aswell reject all alleging of scripture, because the devil Math. 4. used it: and conclude, that we be of the devil, because we use the same ground that he doth, that is to say, the alleging of Scriptures. Yea, and he may by the same reason find fault with Christ our saviour, and his holy Apostles, who do so much use the said alleging of scriptures. And M. Dorman in so doing should be as reasonable, as he is in calling us heretics, and blaming us using the conference of scriptures, for that heretics have used the like. And what if Arrians, anabaptists, or other heretics will not be satisfied with conference of places, and texts of scripture? Is it not well that all true Christians be satisfied thereby? Do not they allege Doctors, and Councils for them, aswell as scriptures? As though M. Dorman could devise us a way, that should satisfy all heretics, without all contradiction or exception on their part: which shall never in this world be brought to pass. For our Saviour Christ himself, the son of God, neither by the authority of his divine person, nor by the truth of his heavenly doctrine, nor by the confirmation of the same by his wonderful miracles, neither by his example of most virtuous life, neither by all these together did satisfy all men: but that many, yea (those who of reason least should) the * Math. 9 d. 34. & 11. c. 19 & 12 b. 24. & 27. d. 63. joan. 7. b. 12. & 9 f. 34. & 18. d. 29. Priests, Scribes, and Phariseis made exception to his person, and life, and were not satisfied by his doctrine. It M. Dorman therefore do mislike the Scriptures, or the conference of texts, for that all men will not be thereby satisfied, sure I am, that he shall never be satisfied in this world, as one that might by that reason, mislike also of our saviour Christ himself, as no-sufficient judge. And thinketh he that Popes of Rome, men of such life, such partiality, such ignorance, such untruth, such falsehood, such bribery, simoniacs, poisone●●, murderers, shall satisfy all men, in all their judgements, of all causes, and controversies, yea in their own very causes, wherein they be parties, and that without all exception? The devil they shall, and that may I say truly. Wherefore I do conclude, though our saviour Christ were to the high Priests, Scribes, Phariseis, and other wicked, a stone to stumble at, and a rock of ruin, & his Gospel either an offence, Esa●. 8. c. 14. Rom. 9 g. 32. 1. Pet. 2. b. 7. 8. ●. Cor. 1. d. 23. or a mockage (so far of was it that he did satisfy them): yet is he and his holy word (which is the virtue & the wisdom of God) the true judge in all controversies & doubts of religion, whatsoever the high priest, or his adherentes the Scribes, and Phariseis do faith to the contrary: or be M. Dorman never so angry therewith. Dorman. Fol. 13. If your hearts good readers be moved with these heresies in the reading, as truly God I take to witness mine was in the writing, abhor those that teach them, shun and avoid such principles and grounds, as have been the foundation not of these only, but of all that now reign in the world, and may be of any other hereafter, that any desperate heretic listeth to invent. Stick to those by which all heretics have been and these shallbe, to there utter confusion vanquished. Shrink not rashly from that foundation, whereon your elders and forefathers fastening themselves, have passed over so many hundred years, in the true confession of one God, one faith, one truth, to them that having yet scarce forty on their backs, have notwithstanding amongst them [creaping all out of the filthy nest of one Martin Luther] so many faiths and yet no faith, so many truths, and yet no truth, never a one agreeing with the other, as there be mad frantic heads amongst them. give no ear to that subtle generation walking in the dark like blind Bats, without a head, without a judge, and all to the end their juggling might not be espied. Nowell. O pitiful hearted man, but yet far better Orator, then tender hearted, who, when he drawing towards an end of this his first part, that is to wit, That the whole church must needs have one only head: and thinking, that he ought to have some matter of weight to move affections upon, and finding none in his purposed matter, bringeth in the rehearsal of the Arrians, and anabaptists heresies (which it is known to the world that we do most abhor) and upon them, as it were upon our heresies, doth this Rhetorician rush into these vehement affections, which he moveth here, but as I think, stirreth no wise man, except it be to laugh at his foolishness. Where he speaketh of desperate heretics, saint Cyprian Cyprianus l●. ● epist. 3. Pa●cis desperatis & perditis, minor esse videtur authoritas episcoporum in Africa constit●torū. etc. so calleth all such as think one Bishop inferior to an other (as doth master Dorman, and such other Papists) as hath been before declared. Master Dorman adorneth the Pope's chair, or see of Rome, with many glorious titles, but nameth it not as yet, neither a great while after, partly for that a periphrasis, or circumscription was here more meet, for amplifications sake: and partly, for that when he had rejected the scriptures, he thought it not good by and by to say, that all heretics (which by no means can be vanquished by the scriptures) must be vanquished by the see of Rome, or Peter's chair, or Popes thereon sitting: but to avoid all show of absurdity he compasseth the matter, and at the last stealeth unto the see of Rome, under S. Hieromes name. That he exhorteth you to stick to those by whom all heretics have been and these shallbe, to their utter confusion vanquished, (meaning the Popes of Rome, as is afterward evident) I answer, If force, fire, and fagoties fail them not, (for other means to vanquish have not the Popes, nor know they any) they will no doubt, use their cruel fury against us, as they have done: (and yet have they, as I think, neither gotten any great gain, nor made any great conquest) but if God's word may be heard, I doubt not but the Pope's chair of pestilence shallbe shortly overthrown, and he with all Papists vanquished, to their utter confusion. Where he calleth the Pope's chair (for it he meaneth, as after he doth declare) the foundation whereon our elders & forefathers sta●ed themselves many hundredth years, in the confession of one faith and truth etc. the contrary is most true: that the Pope hath (as much as in him hath lain) subverted the faith, and truth of Christ, and destroyed Christian men, and Christendom most horribly, sith his false forged supremacy in these our latter days hath gotten creadite. Our faith and doctrine have as many years on their backs, as have the scriptures whereon they are grounded, as hath the Primitive Church, and old ancient Doctors, wherewith in all necessary points of religion they agree thoroughly. It is the Pope, and his supremacy, and other Popery, that is builded upon a late and sandy foundation, and therefore shortly to be subverted, and ●ooted up. Concerning diversities of faiths, disagréeynges, and Schisms, which M. Dorman so often repeateth, he doth nothing else, but cast their own dung at our heads, laying the peculiar and proper faults of the Papists to our charges, according as I have at large before declared, and as I trust sully satisfied Fol. 55. etc. the discreet reader therein. That which master Dorman speaketh of franlike heads, hath allusion to his masters case, when he forsook the truth, and revolted to Popery▪ The world knoweth we be not subtle, but are sore encumbered with the crafty generation of Papists. The word of God is the true light, wherein we endeavour ourselves to our power to walk. Your unwritten verities are more meeter for blind Bats to flitter in. We have our head and judge in heaven, one Christ only, and in earth one prince, and other ministers, both ecclesiastical and civil, to govern and judge us according to his holy word. To juggle, and to conjure too, be your own Popish properties: we have nothing to do with them. And thus I have answered M. Dormans' asseverations in this place, by short points, which may suffice, seeing he only saith his pleasure, & proveth nothing at al. Dorman. Fol. 14. Tell them that you have seen them thrive so evil upon that presumption of theirs, so many heresies, so many schisms and lewd opinions, brought in thereby, that you are at a point with yourselves to leave them, and take that way that Saint Jerome in the like case hath done before you: who although his knowledge in the tongues were such, as by the report of most men, it passed any others in his time: yet would not he take upon him, in the discussing of doubts, to S. Herome in doubts referred himself to Peter's Seat. lean to that rule of theirs, to la●e and confer together one text with an other, but referring himself to the see of Rome he always protested, that by that seat and faith praised by the Apostles own mouth would he be counciled and ruled. Beatitudini tuae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior, To your holiness [saith he writing Borrowed out of Hosius lib. 2. Folio. 76. b. Tom. 2. epist. ad Damasum. to Damasus then the Bishop of Rome] that is to say to Peter's chair am I joined in communion: and he addeth a cause why, Super illam Petram aedificatam The church builded on Peter's chair. ecclesiam scio, I know that on that rock [peter's chair] the Church is builded. Nowell. The Pope and Papists have thriven so well upon their striving against the truth of God's word, that I trust all the world shortly will be at a point to leave them. Saint Jerome saith no where that he would not compare the scriptures together for the discussing of doubts (as M. Dorman would bear us in hand) and S. Augustine saith, he would do it, and exhorteth other to do the same. S. Hieromes words to Damasus Bishop of Rome make nothing against us, nor with M. Dorman. For what marvel is it, if Erasmus. Hieronymus in Italiae regione natus: Romae baptizatus: Romae educatus: presbyter Romanus. that saint Jerome, borne in a coast of Italy, Christened at Rome, brought up at Rome, and made priest at Rome, would in the faith of the blessed Trinity, rather join himself in communion with Damasus Bishop of Rome, a learned and godly man, then with Vitalis, and Meletius (whom M. Dorman calleth Miletus) and Paulinus, who were Antiochian bishops, and therefore strangers to him, and also not clear from the Arrian heresy? What argument can M. Dorman frame hereof? Jerome a Priest of Rome etc. joined himself in communion to his own bishop Damasus, Ergo we englishmen musie join ourselves likewise to the bishop of Rome that now is, being both a foreigner and an enemy. Again, Jerome joined in communion with Damasus a godly bishop of Rome, Ergo we must submit ourselves to a false usurper, and enemy of God, and all godliness. Nay, it followeth rather thus: As saint Jerome refused to join himself to Vitalis bishop of Antiochia, and an Arrian, both because he was a stranger, and also an heretic, and joined himself to Damasus his own Bishop, and a godly Bishop: so ought we to refuse the Pope, being both a foreign usurper, and a false heretic, & to join against him, with our own godly bishops at home. But (will M. Dorman say) saint Jerome addeth a cause (which is the pith of the matter) saying thus: Super illam petram, etc. I know that upon that rock [peter's chair] the Church is builded: which is the cause why S. Jerome joined with Damasus, will he say. But he may be ashamed, had he any shame at all, thus shamefully by a false parenthesis to intermingle these words [peter's chair] in this sentence of S. Jerome, and so to falsify it, as though S. Jerome had said, or meant in this place, that the Pope's chair is the rock, whereon the Church is builded. And now may ye see to what end all M. dorman's long former drift cometh, to wit, to bring us from the scriptures to Peter's chair, that is, the Pope's consistory, there to be judged, which now at the last, after so long suspension and delay, under S. Hieromes name, but most falsely, he hath uttered. For the more plain declaration whereof, I will report here saint Hieromes words a little more largely, then M. Dorman hath done: which are these, Facessat invidia, Romani culminis recedat ambitio, cum successore piscatoris & discipulo crucis loquor. Ego nullum primum, nisi Christum sequens, Beatitudinis tuae, id est, Cathedrae Petri communione consocior: super illam Petram aedificatam Ecclesiam scio. Quicunque extra hanc domum agnum comederit, prophanus est. Si quis in Arca Nohae non fuerit, peribit regnant diluuio. That is to say, Let envy avoid, let the ambition of the height of Rome depart, I speak to the successor of the fisher, and a disciple of the cross. I following no chief or head, but Christ, am joined in communion to your holiness, to say, Peter's chair: upon that rock, I know the Church to be builded: whosoever eateth the Lamb without this house, he is profane or unholy. If one be not in the ark of Nohe, he shall perish when the flood is aloft. Thus far S. Jerome. Now if a man would ask of M. Dorman why he left out those two lines, wherein S. Jerome admonisheth Damasus, as the successor of the poor fisher Peter, to lay aside all ambition, which the greatness of the city of Rome might move him too, and withal affirmeth that he will follow no chief head but Christ (which words are joined, and by a participle depending to that, which M. Dorman alleged) whatsoever he shall answer thereto, I know the true answer: M. Dorman did of falsehood, and corruption of the meaning of saint Jerome, thus detrunke and mangle his sentence: for he did see that S. Jerome admonishing Damasus of humility, and withal professing himself to follow no chief or head but Christ, not excepting Damasus case, but rather affirming him not to be Primum, the chief, maketh clearly with us, who in this controversy of the Pope's usurped supremacy say the same: We follow no head but Christ: we join in communion with none, but such as follow him etc. Furthermore he did see that the words of S. Jerome following (upon this rock I know the church to be builded) might and ought to be referred unto Christ, mentioned by S. Jerome so near before, and by Peter confessed to be that rock, whereon the church is builded: and therefore M. Dorman left out of saint Hieromes sentence the mention of Christ, that he might most falsely and blasphemously refer the rock to Peter's chair, as though Peter's rotten chair, or ruinous Rome were the rock, whereon the church of our saviour Christ is builded. And to make the purposed wickedness of these adversaries of the very rock Christ and his truth (who care not what they allege for the maintenance of their desperate cause of the Pope's supremacy, though themselves do know it serveth nothing for their purpose at all) more manifest to all the world, I let the reader understand, that Erasmus in his scholies or annotations upon this epistle (which M. Dorman were he not asleape must needs see) did warn him that he should not after this sort so falsify S. Jerome in this place. For though he confess that S. Jerome might seem by this place to think, that all churches ought to be under the Roman see, or at the least not strangers from it, yet when he noteth upon these words: I know the church is builded upon that rock, he saith. Super illam Petran etc. Non super Romam, ut arbitror: nam fieri potest ut Roma quoque degeneret: sed super eam fidem quam Petrus professus est, & quam hactenus Romana seruavit ecclesia, qua non alia minus laboravit haeresibus. That is to say, Upon this rock, not upon Rome I trow: for it may come to pass, that Rome also go out of kind: but upon the faith, which Peter professed, and the which hither to the Roman church hath kept, than the which church no other hath been less infected with heresies. Thus far Erasmus, clean contrary to M. Dorman and all Papists, who would have the Roman see, to be the rock whereon Christ's church is builded, and that the said see can not possibly err. Yea and further the same Erasmus in the beginning of his argument upon his treaty against the Luciferians, which is next to his Tom. 2. contra Luciferianos. two epistles to Damasus, hath these words. Nulla haeresis gravius afflixit totius orbis ecclesias, quàm Arrianorum: adeò ut Romanum quoque pontificem, & ipsos involuerit imperatores. That is to say: No heresy hath more grievously afflicted the Churches of all the world, than the Arrians: in so much that it hath wrapped in the Bishop of Rome, and the Emperors themselves. Thus far Erasmus. It pleaseth M. Dorman sometime to allege Erasmus against us, whose authority if it be good, down goeth the Pope, and all Popery: for if the bishops of Rome have been infected with heresy, their Chair is not that unmovable rock, as M. Dorman would have it. Now if M. Dorman did not see these notes of Erasmus upon the place by him alleged out of S. Jerome, I praise his diligence, he may of Dorman be called Dormitantius, as saint Jerome (whom he falsely allegeth) called Vigilantius, and more justly both by nature and sound of name may M. Dorman be so called, then ever was Vigilantius by saint Jerome. But if M. Dorman did see Erasmus note, and dissembled it, as he did see these S. Hieromes words (I following no head but Christ) next and most necessarily joined to the sentence by him alleged, and yet of purpose cut them of by the neck, then is M. Dormans' candour, and sincerity, usual to him throughout all his book, most worthy of plentiful Popish praise. But if Erasmus judgement, and authority be nothing worth, but only when he seemeth to speak against us, than I will yet in Christ's quarrel, that he is the Rock, & not Peter's rotten chair, bring forth one witness, not only greater than Erasmus, but also equal with S. Jerome, and above all Papists in creadite and authority. S. Augustine in his. 13. Sermon upon the Gospel of matthew, Tom. 10. col. 58. b. hath these words. Quia tu dixisti mihi [inquit Christus Petro] Tutor es Christus filius Dei vivi, & ego tibi, tu es Petrus (Simon quip antè vocabatur) hoc autem nomen, ut Petrus appellaretur, ei à domino impositum est, & hoc, ut ea figura significaret Ecclesiam. Quia enim Christus Petra: Petrus populus christianus. Petra enim principale nomen est, ideo Petrus à Petra, non Petra à Petro: quomodo non à christiano Christus, sed à Christo christianus vocatur. Tu es ergounquit Petrus, & super hanc Petram quam confessus es, super hanc Petram quam cognovisti dicens: tu es Chrstus filius dei vivi, aedificabo ecclesiam meam, id est, super meipsum filium dei vivi aedificabo ecclesiam meam. Super me aedificabo te, non me super te. Nam volentes homines ędificari super homines, dicebant: ego quidem sum Pauli, ego autem Apollo, ego verò Cephae, ipse est Petrus: Et alij qui nolebant aedificari super Petrum, sed super Petram, ego autem sum Christi. Apostolus autem Paulus ubi cognovit se eligi, & Christum contemni: divisus est, inquit, Christus? Nunquid Paulus pro vobis crucifixus est: aut in nomine Pauli baptizati estis? Quomodo non in Pauli, sic nec in Petri, said in nomine Christi: ut Petrus edificaretur super Petran, & non Petra supra Petrum. etc. That is to say, Because thou haste said to me (saith Christ to Peter) Thou art Christ the son of the living God: I do also say to thee, thou art Peter: (for before he was called Simon) but this name, that he should be called Peter, was given him of the Lord: to th'end, that by that figure he might signify the church. For because Christ is Petra, the Rock: Petrus is the Christian people. For, Petra is the principal name: and therefore Petrus cometh of Petra, and not Petra of Petrus: as Christus, Christ, is not named à Christiano, of a Christian, but Christianus, a Christian, is named of Christus, Christ. Therefore saith Christ, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock which thou hast confessed, upon this rock which thou hast known, saying, Thou art Christ the son of the living God, I will build my church: that is, upon myself, being the son of the living God will I build my church. I will build thee upon me, not me upon thee. For men the would be builded upon men, did say: I am of Paul, I of Apollo, and I of Cephas, that is of Peter. And other who would not be builded upon Petrum, Peter, but upon Petram, the rock, did say: I am of Christ. And the Apostle Paul when he did know that he was chosen or preferred, and Christ despised by some men, said: is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? And as not in Paul's name, no more were ye baptised in the name of Peter, but in the name of Christ, that Peter might be builded upon the rock, not the rock upon Peter, and so forth. Thus far S. Augustine. And the same interpretation, and Retract. lib. 1. cap. 21. defence, that Christ is the rock, and not Peter, doth saint Augustine again in his Retractations repeat, and maintain. Wherefore you see, master Dorman, by saint Augustine, that Christ is that rock whereon the Church is builded, and not Peter, nor Peter's chair, unless you take Peter's confession made before be came at Rome, to be his Chair, and then ye make with S. Augustine and us, against the Pope: for Rome was not his chair, before he was bishop there. You see that Peter is here the figure of the whole Church, in making his confession, not of the church of Rome only: you see that as Christ is the rock, so representeth Peter the christian people, and not the people of Rome only, much less the Pope only: you see that Petrus, to say, the Church, is builded upon Petra, Christ: and not Petra, Christ, builded upon Petrus, Peter: you see that such as will have Peter being a man, to be their rock to build upon, be sectaries and heretics, dividing themselves from Christ, despising him, and choosing men: and that they only be true Christians, which will not build upon Peter, nor upon any other man, but upon the rock only, which is Christ himself: you see, they that build upon Peter may say, I hold of Cephas, which is Peter: but they that build upon the rock may say, I hold, or I am of Christ. Wherefore I conclude, that all that build upon the Pope, or his chair, as it were upon the rock, as they be called, so be they in deed Papists, not Christians: as were all those false orders of hypocrites, who forsaking to build upon the rock Christ, and building upon men worse than Peter, Paul, or Apollo, a thousand times, forsook to say, Ego sum Christi, I am of Christ, I am a Christian: and said, Ego Franciscanus, ego Dominicanus etc. I am of Francisce, I am of Dominike, a Franciscane, a Dominicane, a Bernardine, yea an Augustinian, contrary to this doctrine of S. Augustine: which argueth, that those hypocrites were never of his institution, as they falsely feigned them selves to be. And as S. Augustine witnesseth with Erasmus, that Christ is Petra, and not Peter, nor Rome Athanafius &. Hiero. de Liberio Papa. Peter's chair, or see, so hath Erasmus fellow witnesses enough of the ancient doctors of the church, yea Concil. Sextum Const. & Basil. de Honorio, johann. 23. Engenio. 4. Papis. and general Councils too, that Popes were heretics, and therefore their chair was not the rock, but wavering and uncertain sand, the building whereon did run to the ruin of heresy. Now you may see, good readers, the cause why M. Dorman hath thus alleged unto you saint Hieromes sentence headless, leaving out the mention of Christ, whom only S. Jerome acknowledgeth for the head, that the words of the rock next following, might seem to be spoken of Peter's rotten chair, or of ruinous Rome, and not of our Saviour jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth for ever. With like fraud did M. Dorman leave also that, which next followeth in S. Jerome, of the house, without the which, he that eateth the Paschal lamb, is a profane, or unholy man: and the ark of Noah, without the which all that be, perish by the blood. For though that place might seem to make for M. Dormans' purpose, concerning the supremacy of the bishop of Rome (as Erasmus hath noted) yet he knowing, or some man warning him, that it is in deed nothing to his purpose, for that the house, without the which the Paschal lamb may not be eaten, the Ark, without the which no man can be saved from the flood, by all old doctors is interpreted to be the one universal church of Christ, and by none to be the church of Rome: and therefore like a wise man, or else a false fox, hath he let that following alone also, as he cut of * Hieron. Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens. Christ the head going and joined next before, and so he hath told you a tale both without head and tail, thereby to prove the Pope, who is antichrist, to be the head of Christ's church. Dorman. Fol. 14. Say unto them (as, saint Jerome, said unto the Ibidem. heretics, Vitalis, and Miletus) because they are adversaries to this seat that you know them not, that they scatter & are schismatics altogether out of the church, that gather not with Peter's successor. Nowell. By your leave sir you say untruely, that saint Jerome saith he knoweth not Vitalis and Meletius, (whom you call Miletus) because they were adversaries to the seat of Rome, but because they were adversaries to the true doctrine of the most blessed Trinity, which Damasus did defend. Saint Hieromes words are these. Non novi Vitalem, Meletium respuo, ignoro Paulinum. Quicunque tecum non colligit, spargit: hoc est, qui Christi non est, est Antichristi. That is to say, I know not Vitalis, I refuse Meletius, Paulinus I know not. Whosoever doth not gather with thee, he scattereth: that is, he that is not of Christ, is of antichrist. Thus far saint Jerome. I pray you master Dorman, what is in these words, but they may as well be spoken to saint Augustine bishop of Hippo in Africa, or to saint Ambrose Bishop of Milane, or to any other godly Bishop, holding the truth of the blessed Trinity, against Vitalis, Meletius, and Paulinuus, teaching erroneous doctrine, and using unfit terms thereof. Here is neither mention made of this seat or that, or the adversaries thereto, as causes why saint Jerome should not know these men: but because they taught false doctrine, and Damasus taught true, and therefore gathered not with him, but scattered, and were not of Christ, but of antichrist, Hiero. Trium hypostaseon novellun nomen à me homine Romano exigitur. therefore did saint Jerome not know them: he being a Roman, would not acknowledge their errors, cloaked under a strange and new invented Greek ternie. But being a Roman priest, he well knew Damasus the Roman Bishop, and so consequently his own bishop (as every man is bound to know his own godly Bishop) he knew his true doctrine, and plain Latin terms, whereby he uttered the plain truth plainly: and therefore so knowing him, and his doctrine, he joined with him in communion, not for the seats sake, or for that he was Peter's successor therein, but for the truths sake, which he (being Peter's successor in truth of doctrine, more than in seat, or Chair) did profess. Again, the cause why saint Jerome did not know, but rejected, Vitalis, Meletius, and Paulinus, was not for that they did not submit themselves to Damasus as to the supreme head of the Church, or for that cause took them to be enemies, as master Dorman would have it seem (for there was no such matter then in question) but because they did not agree with Damasus in the truth, but taught falsely of the greatest points of our religion, and would have wrapped the same in obscure and strange terms, thereby to deceive the more, therefore did saint Jerome not know them. This is the true sense of this place, good readers, as all learned, that will read it, shall easily perceive. Wherefore master Dorman thus corrupting and falsifying Saint Jerome, by taking away from him, and adding to him, what he list, and drawing the words of saint Jerome concerning the doctrine of the most blessed Trinity, to the Pope's usurped supremacy, mingling us in lente unguentum, to wit, matters most impertinente, together, might most justly be blamed in this place therefore, saving that he doth so in all places. Finally I would have thee (good reader) to note, that as S. Jerome would not know Vitalis and Meletius, for that they were foreigners, and not his own bishops: for that they taught false doctrine, and therefore were not of Christ, but of Antichrist: and for that they were of a strange language: so have we the same causes altogether, not to know, but to refuse the bishop of Rome, and more too: as this specially, that he, being a foreigner, would usurp such a supreme authority, or rather cruel tyranny over us, with whom of right he hath nothing to do. Dorman. fol. 14. Nowell. Translated out of Hosius contra Brentium. lib. 2. fo. 77. Tell them boldly with S. Austen that you will In quaest. veteris & novi testament. q. 110. The heretics church a dead trunk or a live monster. owe neither suit nor service to their chair of pestilence, nor be a member of that body, that either lacketh a head and is a dead trunk, or hath many, and is a live monster. Nowell. Be bold and blush not, M. Dorman, as boldly to bely S. Augustine, as ye straight before have dealt with S. Jerome. For neither be the words you do rehearse, S. Augustine's: neither are the greatest part of them to be found in the place by you noted: nor the words which be in that place which you have noted (whose so ever they be) make aught for your purpose, or against us. You should have done more simply, had you alleged a proof for your headless trunk, or live monster, out of Hierach. lib. 3. cap. 4. fol. 111. a. &. li. 5. cap. 14. fo. 261. c. Hosius lib. 2. fol. 77. extravag commun. lib. 1. tit. de Maiorit. & obedientia ca unam sanctam. Pighius, Hosius, & Pope Boniface his Extravagants: there shall you in deed find for your purpose: for much ado is made there, to save the Popish church, as having two heads, one in heaven, an other in earth (as they say) from being a live monster. Erasmus being no simple judge of the true and counterfeit writings of the old doctors, in his preface before the book De quaestionibus veteris & novi testamenti, entitled untruly to S. Augustine, doth by diversity of S. Augustine's phrase, and the phrase of that book, probably, and by very barbarous and false Latin usual in that book, unaccustomed to S. Augustine, certainly, and by sundry doctrines in that book, most contrary to S. Augustine's doctrine in his books, undoubtedly prove, that it is not S. Augustine's work: so that it were to much impudency for any man, but only Hosius and M. Dorman, to allege it for S. Augustine's. The words of that author (who so ever he was) a little more largely rehearsed by Hosius, than by you, M. Dorman, least it might appear, you had followed him to near, are these: Eorum qui extra ecclesiam, vel contra ecclesiam sedes suas instituerunt, Cathedram pestilentiae dicimus. Qui enim inconcessa praesumit etc. We say that the chair of them which have made them sees without, or against the church, is the chair of Pestilence. He that presumeth upon unlawful things, is guilty: how much more if he also corrupt the tradition of him, whose seat he usurpeth? For they trouble the order begun of Peter the Apostle, and kept to this time by the continuance of bishops succeeding, challenging to themselves order without origine, that is to say, professing a body without an head. Wherefore it is agreeable, their seat also to appear to be the chair of Pestilence. Thus far that incertain author, alleged by Hosius, and Lib. 2. contra Brentium, fol. 77. now by M. Dorman, for S. Augustine. First if you would have this place to make for you against us, you must prove yourselves to be the true church of Christ, which you shall never be able to do, being in deed the synagogue of antichrist. Further it appeareth by these words, whose seat he usurpeth, meaning Peter's seat, that this was written in later times against some Antipope, wrongfully chosen, and intruding himself into the Bishopric of Rome. For it hath been no novelty for these iii or four hundredth years, to have ii or iii Popes at once: one chosen at Rome by some Cardinals, an other at Avignon by other some Cardinals, the third in a third place, appointed by the Emperor: and one to keep his Papal see at Rome, an other at Avignon in France, the third at Ravenna in Italy, or some where else. And so some writer in favour of him, by like, that was chosen, and kept residence at Rome, hath written this against some other, that usurped Peter's seat: and so they being many at one time, troubled the order of the succession of one, after an other, begun at Peter, and so continued, till such discord came in by those, who setting up an other chair, and so not sitting in Peter's chair, sat (as he saith) in the chair of pestilence. Howsoever it be, the matter can not be applied to us, who do not usurp Peter's chair. Further, what word is there here to prove the chair of Rome to be the head of the universal church, but rather to be the head of that peculiar church of Rome only, where Peter's successors have continued? Such kind of head governor, as we do not deny every bishop to be in his own diocese, & so yet subject to his prince, as the bishop of Rome ought to be to the Emperor his lord. To proceed, we having Christ to be our head, our church is no dead trunk, as lacking an head: and having him our head only, & other his ministers, our governors under him, our church is no live monster as having many heads: no more than our common wealth having God the only head in heaven, our prince his servant, our head governor in earth, is therefore a live monster: or the whole world having God to his head, is therefore a dead trunk, because it hath no one only earthly head, nor can have any such: no more can the universal church, throughout the whole world have any such one earthly head. Wherefore, as M. Dorman would gather our church to be a dead trunk, for that we will not grant one only head in earth over all the church, though we grant Christ to be the only head thereof, as in deed he is: so let him gather in like wise, that the whole world is a dead trunk, for that it hath no one only head in earth, though it have God for his head in heaven: and so he may conclude, that god, and Christ the authors of life, be no heads, or no such heads as can save the bodies, whereof they be heads, from being dead trunks, except the said bodies have a false usurper from Rome, to be their head beside, and to give them life. And had M. Dorman had so much leisure from his divinity matters, as to have looked better upon his notes of the Canon law, his peculiar study, he would have been better advised, than to have called us Acephalos, headless, and therefore dead trunks, extravag johan. 22. tit. 7. the Re ligiosis domibus, cap. Sancta Romana: Acephali sunt, qui nul li praelato subsunt. who do obey our own Prelates, seeing Acephali (as is there noted) are those who be subject to no Prelate. And upon the other part again, let M. Dorman conclude as well against all kingdoms, & common wealths in Christendom, that they be live monsters, as having many heads (for that they have God in heaven to their head, and their several Princes in earth to their heads, and governors) as he for like cause concludeth, our particular churches to be live monsters. And I doubt not, but M. Dorman so reasoning, shall plainly appear, though not to all men that have heads, yet to all that have reason in their heads, to reason more like a trunk than a man: who, though he have an head upon his shoulders, yet doth he by such monstrous, and unreasonable reasoning, show himself to have but small wit, and less learning in his head. All this ado hath M. Dorman made now by the space of more than three leaves, to deface the scripture, as no fit judge in controversies: & to persuade us that the Pope, like an other Pythagoras, by his only bare word, may and aught to satisfy all men, heretics, & others, & that it shallbe sufficient for him only to say, without reason, or scripture why he so sayeth: saving this reason only, Papae est pro ratione Clement. li. 3. tit. 13. de Censibus & Exact. cap. Cum sit. & lib. 5. de ver borum sig. tit. 10. ca 1. Si Summus. voluntas: With the Pope will standeth for reason, as is mentioned in the book of his own Canon law. To this end all his examples of the Suenkfeldians, Arrians, anabaptists, matters most impertinent to his proposed matter, do tend. This is the conclusion of all, that you shrinking from the scripture, should not shrink from the Roman chair, but stick to the Popes thereon sitting, by whom all haeretikes have been, and these shall be, to their utter confusion vanquished. For what one haeretike are they able to reckon overthrown by the scripture? Was Arrius, were the anabaptists overthrown by the scriptures, nay, that were they not. These be M. Dormans' own words. But for that I am not so certain of the certainty of the Pope's judgement, Fol. 13. as M. Dorman is, I will be so bold after his example, to demand of him certain short questions touching the Pope as judge, as he hath made of the scripture as no judge. What if there be two or three Popes at once, as often hath been: for Dnuphrius reckoneth. 26. schisms in in the church of Rome, of which some one hath dured about. 40. years together (in every of the which schisms were at the least two Popes at once) when there be I say two or more Popes at once, one cursing an other, one breaking and disannulling the decrees made by an other, one persecuting and killing an other: is it not to be doubted which of them shall be this certain judge in controversies? And whether in this case the popish church be not in danger to be a live monster, as having many heads? And on the contrary part, what if we have never a Pope at all, (for so hath it happened many times, for one or two years together): as after Pope Gregory the. 7. the see of Rome was vacant one year: after Celestine the. 4. one year and. 8. months: After Clement the. 4. two years. 9 months: after Nicolas the. 4. two years and three months: After Clement the. 5. two years, three months: And after john the. 23. it was vacant two years and five months) shall all our doubts lie for that time undiscussed for lack of a judge: and your popish church so long lie as a dead trunk, for lack of an head? Or else whether shall Peter's chair (though empty) be both judge & head too, good enough for the popish church, and such a body as it is. What if the Pope sit not at Rome in Italy, which is peter's see and chair, but at Avignon in France, as Popes did for the space of. a a Clement 5. ad Gregorium 11. Platina in vitis ipsorum. 70. years together? may we not doubt of the certainty of the judge, not sitting in the chair, whereof he hath all his certainty? or else doth he carry his chair about into all countries, for that the b Sext. Decretal. li. 5 tit. 9 de poenis. ca Foelicis fol. 144 col. 3. litera k. whole world is his diocese, as in his Canon law is mentioned? What if the Pope do err, as all the canonists, Gratian, Gerson, Caietane, and many others think he may? What if he be an heretic, (as c De Papa Liberio. Athanasius, S. Jerome, d De Anastasio. Gratian, e In pręfatione in Hier. contra Luciferianos. Erasmus, the general councils, the f de Honorio Papa. sixth, the Council of g de johann 23. Constance, and h de Eugenio 4 & de multis alij● alij. Platina i●● vita johan. 8. basil testify that divers Popes have been) must he yet needs be judge, and his judgement certain also? What if his election be uncertain, or unlawful, he entering in by force, ambition, simony, perjury, (as Platina testifieth many of them have entered, and in which case, not only Gerson, Gratian, Caietane, and all the canonists, but also Pope Nicolas the second himself do affirm, that he is to be deposed, as no lawful Distinct. 69 cap. Si quis. Pope, and not Apostolicus, but Apostaticus, not Apostolic, but an Apostata) must he yet be the most certain and only judge? What if we have a she Pope, such as was Pope Johan, otherwise john the eight, must the judgements and word of our woman Pope be certain: and the judgements and word of God uncertain? What if the Pope's successors do disannul their predecessors Popes decrees, and make decrees most contrary to them: pull them out of their graves when they be dead, and disgrade them: is here no So did Pope Steph●nus the sixth serve Pope Formosus. Platina in vita Formosi. incertainty which Popes, and Papal decrees are to be followed, which to be rejected? Now if the matter be the Pope's own case, as is this of his supremacy, he must be both party and judge too, which his own Canon law forbiddeth. These doubts, with a great many more (whereof you shall also shortly hear more at large, god willing) have I (good M. Dorman) about the Pope, as the only certain judge in all controversies, and I desire to be resolved at your hands, who are so certain of the certainty of his Papal judgements, that you are author to us to fly from the scriptures as uncertain, to them as most certain, and infallible. For seeing the spirit of God doth so oft call the scriptures * Deut. 4. a, 1. b. 8. & 6. a. 1. d. 20. & 7. b. 11. 12. & infinitis locis. judicia, judgements, yea, ● judicia justiciae Dei, the judgements of the justice of God, and viam veritatis, the way of truth, for the certainty of their judgement (as I take it) until you have resolved me of these doubts, and many other, about the Pope your Roman judge, and his consistory, you shall hardly persuade me, and Psal. 18. c. 19 &. 118. a. 7. 13. 30. & a. 75. &. c. 105. &. d. 150. & 159. & d. 163 &. 174. (as I think) many more, to believe that the scripture, that is to say, the word of God, should be uncertain: and the Popes, that is to say, man's, and sometime woman's word, to be most certain. And besides this text Deus verax, omnis autem homo mendax, I think you shall not find many more for your purpose. Rom. 3. a. 4 god is true: but every man is a liar. Dorman. fol. 14 Ask of them with what face they could so many years together, call king Henry the eight supreme head of the church of England immediately under God, and now our gracious sovereign lady his daughter, supreme governor in all ecclesiastical things and causes over the same (which how so ever they please themselves with fine fetches and coloured devices, is with the other title in effect all one) if this reason of theirs were good: Christ is head of the church, therefore there is no other head thereof under him? And how was king Henry then? If they say that their meaning is, that no man can, because Christ is head of the universal church, be under him head of the whole, but may well be of some particular church, as king Henry was, and the queens majesty now is: Then demand of them what reason they have to lead them to say, that a particular member of the church (as the church of England can be no more may have an other head beside Christ, and the whole body may not? and why one member may have two heads, more than one body? Nowell. Now after his long digressions, and declamations against the Suenkfeldians, against the Arrians, and anabaptists, and against the conference of scriptures, the man remembering himself, returneth suddenly to his matter by a question. And in deed he taketh on with his Herotemata, and other rolling Rhetorical figures exceadynglie, now that he draweth toward a conclusion. Fly those, stick to those, (saith M. Dorman) Shrink not from those: Tell those you are at a point with them: Say to them, as saint Jerome said: Tell them boldly, with saint Augustine: Ask of them with what face, then demand of them again, with what reason: with many other Rhetorical flowers, wherewith he hath given a fair flourish to his final conclusion: Magno conatu magnas nugas agens, as they say, making great ado about great trifles, as I doubt not but all wise men will judge. Ask of them (saith master Dorman) with what face they could call King Henry the eight so many years supreme head of the Church of England? etc. As though the man had so proved the contrary, that none durst show his face to gainsay him, whereas all he hath said is not worth one rush. Ask of them [ꝙ he] with what face. Nay ask of your forsworn fathers the old Papists (for some of them are yet living who gave him that title first] with what face they did give it him, did swear it to him, and so long time continued so calling him: if they did not so think, as they said, and had sworn, but dissembled deeply, ask of them with what face they played so false dissembling hypocrites (to say but soberly) with so noble a prince, their sovereign Lord? Ask of them what manner of subjects they were all that while, feigning in face, in countenance, in word, and writing also, yea and taking a solemn oath to be with their prince therein, and being in heart, and deed, on the Pope, his sworn enemy, his side? Which passeth having of two faces under one hood. But if they thought in deed, as they pretended in words, then ask of them with what face they did change their copy, & forswear the same, and themselves with all so easily afterward: yea and compelled all other to be forsworn with them for company? If it will please you to resort to the records of the xxij and xxiiij years of king Henry the eight, there shall you find who they were, that first offered this title to the said king: there shall you find that all abbots, and other religious, all the Bishops, Deans, archdeacon's, and Clergy of both the houses of the Convocation, then living, gave him that title. Amongst whom if you find one protestant, I can for him find one score of papists (to speak with the least) and peradventure one hundredth too. And those protestants, who gave him that title, dealt simply and plainly with their Prince, as becomed true subjects, as the sequel declared. But there shall you find an huge number of Papists, who by their writing, not only saying: by their oath, not word only, rejected all that false usurped supremacy of the Pope (which you and they, as many of them as yet be living, without all face, or with a shameless face, do now maintain) there shall you find who gave to King Henry the supremacy over the clergy, as well as the laity, within his own dominions: there shall you find who they were that so falsely dissembled, and that so many years together with their sovereign lord. There shall you find who they were that changed their copy and turned with the wind, as the weathercock: there shall you find, who they were, that so falsely swore, resware, triesware, forswore themselves, and not content therewith, did so cruelly by all most terrible torments and dreadful deaths, compel others to perjury with them. S●ing therefore thus standeth the case, with what face soever M. Dorman moveth such demands, and vexeth us with such lewd questions, to be inquired otherwhere, surely he doth it without all forehead, or shamefastness. Now to the matter: by what right we give the queens majesty the title of the supreme governor in Ecclesiastical matters, as well as temporal, and with what face we so call her, is to be answered in the second part of M. Dormans' division (where he affirmeth that priests only, and not princes ought to have the government of the church) wherein I doubt nothing to avouch, and that shortly, the princes due authority in the church of God within their own dominions, with better face, authority, reason, and conscience, than you have done, or shallbe able to do in the maintenance of the Pope's foreign false usurped supremacy. Where M. Dorman requireth a reason, why a particular church may have one head governor under Christ in earth, and the whole church may not: why one member may, and the whole body may not have any head: I trust the reason is not to seek in the good reader's memory, seeing it hath been so oft declared before. Yet will I answer M. Dorman his question by an other question. Why may one kingdom have one head in earth under God (as daily experience teacheth) & the whole world can not have one only head in earth under God: (that Monarchy being reserved to himself alone) and why in this case the member may have an earthly head besides God, and the whole body may not? If M. Dorman say, the questions be not like, I ask with what face he can so say: seeing that in the beginning of this his treaty, he brought the example of Folio. 4. b. civil government, in the which every kingdom hath his King, every country, city, and company, have their several governors etc. to prove that the church ought likewise to have one head? But I wot what master Dorman and other Papists would say to my question, if the times served them. They would quickly answer, that the whole world hath, and aught to have one only head in earth under God, and therefore the Church in like wise ought to have one only head in earth under Christ. And if they were demanded, who is, or should be that head? If the time, I say, were for it, they would plainly say, the Pope Sex. Decr. li. 3. tit. 16. cap. periculoso. folio 115. col. 4. litera. k. Papa totius orbis tenet principatum. & Sert. Decret. lib. 5. tit. 9 de poenis, cap. Foelicis. Romanus pontifex totius ocbis est epis. is Lord and Monarch of the whole world, and head of the whole Church too: For so it is recorded in the book of his Canon law, and that he hath as much right to all the Kingdoms of the world, as only Monarch, as he hath to the whole Church dispersed throughout all the world, as the only head: and in so saying, master Dorman might say more truly, than he is ware of: For he hath like right to both, that is, none at all to any of both. But in all his behaviour, riches, pomp, power, Castles, soldiers, armour, guns, and other artillery of war, he showeth himself more like a worldly prince, then in any one point like a godly bishop, or a bishop at all, whereof he hath no token, nor sign at all. Wherefore he might with better reason, plead for his Monarchy of the world, as partly in possession thereof, then for his bishopric of the world, being clean out of all possession of any bishopric, and without all show of any bishop. And as when the time served him, in King Ihons' days, he made as great title to the crown, as to the Church of Math. Parifiensis in vita johamn. Regis versus finem. England: and named the prince his vassal, aswell as the Priests his subjects: so hath this Fox changed his hear, but not his manners. And I pray God that he, being in deed but a false romish Fox, never have opportunity nor power, so to play the Lion, or Bear rather, again in our country. Dorman. Fol. 14. Finally, if at that time they flattered the king, and gave him that which neither they could give, nor he receive, and abused his good nature to the destruction of so many notable men, as for the only refusal to say as they said, by most exquisite & painful torments, lost their lives: say unto them, that they yet at length acknowledge their fault, and admonish that good Lady our masters that she consent not to use that title, which because it belongeth to Christ, she may not have, or if they think and will stand in it that she may without offence, that they do yet at the least confess, that reason of theirs to be very weak and of no strength: Christ is head of the church therefore it may have none other. Except they will perhaps say, that he is head of all other Churches, and hath only left ours headless, so that because he is not head thereof, we are out of the fear of falling into that inconvenience of having many, and may therefore choose some one amongst ourselves whom we list. Nowell. Who they were that flattered king Henry, and abused his good nature, I have touched before: who as they most deceipfullie dissembled with him, so did they after most cruelly by all exquisite and painful torments put to death such as did not slatter their prince, but dealt sincerely with him, and would not therefore give his enemy, a foreign false usurper, the title due to their said prince. And in both these points, the false flattering of their sovereign, & abusing of his good nature, and in murdering most cruelly their fellow subjects, they did show the naughtiness of their own nature. The Queen's majesty useth no title, but such as of good right she may use, as shall in place convenient be deely proved. The reason of th'Apology, Christ is the only head of the universal church, therefore there is, nor can be no one earthly head over it, is not weak, but as good as is this reason: God is the only head over the whole world, therefore there is, nor can be no one only earthly head over it: which, as I think, is no weak, but a good, and strong reason, and well confirmed by perpetual experience. And again this reason, Though Christ be the only head over the whole church, yet may he have, and hath his ministers under him, head governors of several churches: is as good, as is this: Though God be head over all the world, yet hath he several kings, & head governors under him in every country: which I think, both reason & experience will allow, as both reasonable & true. But that one man should have the governance of all, will trouble M. Dormans' brain to make it seem reasonable (but only to such as is himself) as the Pope attempting to put it in experience, hath by his ambition, cruelty & avarice, troubled, oppressed and rob all the world: which M. Dorman, & such as he is, do maintain, as reasonably and well done: Non quia honestum, aut probabile, sed quia utile, not for that it is honest, reasonable or probable, but because it is profitable to Popish prelate's, partakers of such polling & spoil of the world. Dorman. Fol. 15. ●●● Thus I trust good readers you see sufficiently proved, that Christ's pleasure is for the repressing of heresies, & calming of tempestuous schisms, that there be one head of his church here in earth, supplying his corporal absence for the time: his honour in the mean season nothing thereby the more diminished, than it is in other things wherein he also useth the ministery and service of men. Nowell. Thus I trust (good readers) you see the insufficiency, or more truly, the lewdness of M. Dormans' proofs, of the necessity of one only head over Christ's whole church here in earth: you see where he saith, that he hath sufficiently proved it to be Christ's pleasure, that there should be such an one head, that he hath not, nor could not (for if he could, he would) allege out of the new testament (where Christ's will and pleasure is written, and declared most largely and manifestly) as much as one word sounding to that purpose: so far of is it, that it is, as he saith, sufficiently proved. You see that Schisms and controversies by Supra. so. 33. b. &. 49. b. etc. saint Cyprians judgement, and b Suprà, folio 48. &. 50. saint Augustine's also, with. 217. Bishops more assembled in the African Council with him, and by good reason, and experience also, may be best quieted and decided in the countries where they arise, by the magistrates and Bishops of the same countries. You see that it becometh man, unable well to govern a very little thing, Suprà, folio. 96. &. 97. to humble himself, and to yield up the honour & glory of governing the whole world and Church to God, and to our saviour jesus Christ, who alone are able to suffice to such a charge. For experience teacheth, that those men are the worst of all governors, which desire to have most. Also you see, that in this treaty hitherto, as M. Dorman hath not one word out of the new Testament, so hath he alleged but only two texts out of the old Testament, one out of Deuteronomium, cap. 17. which is, as a special place often D. foli. 4. 7. 9 &. 12. D. fol. 11. alleged, and repeated: an other out of Numeri. 16. which both make directly against him: the one proving that every nation, country, diocese, or church ought to have their several head Bishop, as had the nation of the jews: and you have seen that saint Cyprian so taketh it: The other showing that Christian Suprà, fol. 60. &. 61. Suprà, fol. 95. etc. princes are superiors to Bishops or high Priests (as was Moses to Aaron) or else if Moses were, as they say, a priest also, that there were two high priests in the jewish church at once, and so consequently aught to be in our churches: whereby M. Dormans' assertion of one head over the whole church is quite overthrown. And withal you see how the Papists themselves, disobedient to their own sovereign appointed Suprà, folio. 95. etc. by God to be their governor, are the successors of Chore, Dathan, and Abyron, rebelling against Moses and Aaron their governors by God appointed. Wherefore you may well understand, that were it either profitable or necessary, were it Gods, and Christ's pleasure (as master Dorman saith it is) to have such an one head in earth over his church, God would have certified us of a thing so profitable and necessary for us, and so pleasant to him, in his scriptures (where he hath declared his pleasure) more plainly and expressly, then by two old shadows of the jewish Church: which also be such, that they do teach us clean contrary to that, which M. Dorman saith is so necessary for us, and Christ's pleasure also. You see how blindly he goeth about to prove that there ought to be one only head over all the church, bringeth in for proof thereof the regiment of several countries, kingdoms, cities, etc. by several princes, several magistrates and heads, which maketh most directly with us, that several churches should in like wise have their several heads. And yet he thus dealing avanteth himself, asking, who is so blind that he can not see, that he reasoneth effectuously? Like blind bayard laying D fol. 4. &. suprà, fo. 31 b. etc. himself in the mire, and there wallowing, neieth yet for wantonness, as though he were galoping in the green, and flinging in the plain. You see how often S. Cyprian is by him alleged for the Pope of Rome his D. fo. 1. 3. & 5. & suprà. fol. 1. 2. 20. &. 35. etc. supremacy, in those places where he speaketh of Rogatian, and of himself, being both bishops of other countries and places, & of the equality of all bishops, which is directly against the supremacy of one over all. You see in likewise how he allegeth S. Basil, bewailing the D. fo. 1. & 2. & suprà, fo. 3. &. 13. state of the bishops of the Greek and east church, and the decay of their authority, and of their sees, as though he had spoken of the Pope of Rome, and his estimation now decayed, and his see so sore ruined: and how he hath either very ignorantly, or most maliciously by false translation corrupted S. Basil. You see how untruly he would make Novatus his oath exacted for the D. fo. 2. & suprà fo. 7. etc. maintenance of his heresy, to seem the same that is our oath of obedience to our prince, and renouncing of the Pope's foreign usurped tyranny: And how he D. fol. 3 & suprà, fo. 25 would make Vrsitius and Valens, to seem to acknowledge the Pope's supremacy: only for that, they, after long dissension reconciled themselves to julius bishop of Rome: as they did in likewise to Athanasius bishop of Alexandria in Egypt, who by the like reason, should be the head of the whole church, as well as julius. Dor. fo. 5. b & fol. 14. a. & suprà fo. 41. 42. etc. &. 43. b. etc. 107. etc. Hieron. contra Luciferianos. Suprà, fol. 41. etc. Hieron. ad Euagrium. Suprà, fol. 43. &. 51. You see how he hath alleged S. Jerome speaking of the authority that every bishop hath over the priests and clergy of his own diocese, as though he had spoken of the supremacy of the bishop of Rome over all bishops, and the whole thurche throughout the world. Yea and thus hath he not been ashamed to allege out of such treaties of S. Jerome, as either have not as much as one word spoken, nor meant of the bishop of Rome (though the said treaties be very long) either if any mention be made of him, other Bishops are expressly made equal in authority with him, and therefore his supremacy over other Bishops clean overthrown. You see Pope a Dor. fol. 5. b. &. 6. a. & Suprà, fol. 46. &. 47. Leo his witness in his own cause can not help him, specially the witness being corrupted, and the copies of his testimony not only divers, but clean contrary one to an other: which taketh away all creadite from them all. And were they, as they are surmised, Pope Leo his words, yet they are, as you have seen, b Suprà, fol. 49. 50. 51. 52 by S. Cyprian, and S. Hicrome even in the same places by M. Dorman alleged, clearly and f●lly confuted. You see how shamefully he allegeth c Dor. fol. 7. a. & Suprà, fol. 62. Nazianzene his sayings of one God, as though they had been spoken of one Pope, of whom Nazianzene never dreamt. You see the words of an uncertain and unworthy author boldly without blushing alleged for S. Augustine's words, which words yet, were they S. Augustine's, make nothing against us. And universally, you see his d Suprà, fo. 3 a. &. 9 b. & 19 b, &. 62▪ &. 107. &. 111 & multis l●cis. falsehood in translating, or fraud in corrupting, mangling, or adding to such authors, as he doth allege. Neither is his deceit and guile comparable to his impudency and unshamefastness, being not abashed to allege those authors for him, who above all others moste make against him. As namely S. Cyprian, and S. Jerome, being Suprà, fol. 49. 50. 51. etc. both most plain and earnest for the equality of all bishops, and so directly against the supremacy of one over all. And thus you see good Readers, that such an one head of the whole church in earth to be, neither appeareth to be Gods, and our saviour Christ's will or pleasure, by any thing hitherto by M. Dorman alleged out of the scriptures: neither to be the will of any godly ancient doctor, by any thing hitherto brought by M. Dorman out of their writings: neither appeareth it by any good or probable reason by him made, to be profitable, much less necessary to Christ's church, that any such head should be. Nay the clean contrary, to wit, that it is not Gods, nor our saviour Christ's pleasure, that it was not the will of the godly ancient doctors, that it is neither necessary nor profitable to Christ's church, to have any such one head in earth, appeareth evidently by the Scriptures, doctors, and reasons, yea and by the same scriptures, doctors & reasons which are by M. Dorman for his purpose alleged. And these, good reader, be those most plain and evident Thra●o: Mu nus nostrum ornato verbis, quod poteris. etc. reasons, these be those urgent causes, which M. Dorman Dor. fo. 4. ● promised in the beginning of this treaty, he would allege for the necessity of one head over the whole church. Neither seemeth it that M. Dorman himself was ignorant of this infirmity & weakness of his slender proofs: and therefore hath he (to call away the reader's mind from this consideration (intermingled many matters impertinent, as a Dor. fol. 2. &. 3. suprà. fo. 7. 13. etc. complaints, and lamentations for the great persecutions that they, innocent lambs, God wots, do suffer: as trifling tales of b Dor. fol. 8. & 9 suprà fo. 77. etc. surmised felons: as the defence of Cardinal c Dor. fol. 10. 11. Supra, fol. 82. 90. etc. Hosius, one of the greatest estates for learning and virtue (as saith M Dorman) that this day Christendom hath: as long treaties of the d D. fol 10. Suprà. 82. 83. etc. Suenkfeldianss, e Dor. fol. 12. Suprà. 101. 102. etc. Arrians, f Dor. fol. 13. Suprà. 103. anabaptists: as g Dor. fol. 8. 10. 12. 13. suprà fol. ●●. etc. declamations against the scripture, and conference of tertes of the scripture together, which he is very oft in hand with, declaring a special offence and stomach against the same. All which matters, most impertinent to his matter of one head (borrowed of his Master D. Harding, Pighius, Hosius, with others as is in their places noted) he hath amplified at large, and gay garnished with the ornaments of his railing rhetoric. Which stuff were it altogether had to the dung hill, as it ought, all his book almost were clean swept out of the doors, & little or nothing should be left thereof, and yet nothing taken away from it, that did belong of right unto it. Seeing therefore this first, and most principal point, of one head of the church, the very foundation of all is not proved by M. Dorman, or so lewdly proved, that it faileth, and falleth of itself, all the Pope's supremacy cometh down upon their heads. For if they can not prove (as they never shallbe able) that there ought to be one chief head of Christ's whole church here in earth, they can not possibly prove, that the Pope should be that one head. Wherefore I do advise M. Dorman, and all the pack of Papists to recoil from this their Thesis of one head of the church, to the Hypothesis of the Pope head of the church: and to prove first that the Pope of Rome ought of right to be the only chief head, and then after to induce thereof, that there must of necessity be one chief head. For if they take not this way, I do give them plain warning, they shall never thrive. And further seeing this part of M. Dormans' book, both for that it is the first, and the chief part also, requireth good, and substantial proofs, not only for itself sake, but also that the readers upon the good liking hereof, might have the better hope and expectation of all the rest of his book (according as M. Dorman hath, no doubt, out of the precepts of Rhetoric observed) and is yet not withstanding thus slenderly, untruly, falsely, fondly, and dreamingly handled by M. Dorman, it giveth the Readers to understand, what they shall find in the residue of his book: in the which, as it were in the rearward, he hath placed bag and baggage, with such pages, drudges, and slaves to attend upon the same, as are more ready to run away, than to abide any brunt of battle. The which I have not as yet assailed, for that I do see the Bishop of Sarisburie his band bend upon them, whose hands if any of that cowardly company escape, as either not espied, or not regarded of him, I do promise thee (good reader) that I, God willing, will shortly have them in chase, until I have left of all M. dorman's bragging, but most cowardly army of lewd Popish reasons, and allegations, not as much as one soldier untaken, or put to shameful flight. Dorman. fol. 15. It followeth now that I show to you who is and of right aught to be that head: if first I do you to understand, that it must necessarily be a priest, and that so by just consequence neither lay man, woman nor child, can be capable of that office. Nowell. M. Dorman by like hath read, or heard of Aristotle, that he giveth counsel, that if one chance to fall Aristot. in Topicis. into a matter very barren to reason upon, he should by some sleight, scape out to some other more plentiful matter. And therefore finding his matter of the necessity of one head of the church (which yet is most necessary, though it be impossible, for the Papists to prove, or else to lose all) so bare & barren of all proofs, as well out of the scriptures, as doctors, and good reasons, he maketh a escape into a larger camp, and taketh in hand to prove that no lay lay man, woman, nor child, can be * It is M. Dormans' ●erme. capable of this office (that he speaketh of) to wit, to be the only supreme head over Christ's universal church: and that will he prove you both roundly, & plentifully, by making declaration that princes, be they men, women, or children, may not minister the Sacraments, as Dor. fol. 18. ●. etc. priests may: may not preach, as priests may: may not excommunicate, and absolve, bind, and lose, as priests may: can not have so great knowledge in the scriptures, as priests may. For in proving of these things, which no man doth deny, & which being granted do make nothing to his purpose, or against us, he is as plentiful, as he was before spare & barren in proving the necessity of one head of the church in earth, which we do all deny, and which not proved, the Papists have lost all. And as he had very much ado to patch up a few leaves by alleging of two poor places out of the scriptures, and three or four trifling testimonies of the old doctoures (which I so term, for that they make nothing to his purpose, but clean against him) & with impertinent pelfrie to supply the rest: so in the second part, to wit, that no prince, man, woman, nor child, can be supreme head of Christ's church in earth, for that they can not minister the Sacraments, may not preach, can not bind, & lose, etc. he doth lay on load out of the scriptures, Doctors, reasons, and playeth▪ Rex, reveling, and ruffling royally: so that he hath much enlarged his book with this part. For this accessary, and suborned treaty, and counterfeit controversy, without any adversary for the most part of it (as it were a sixth finger upon one hand, longer and bigger than all his fellows) is alone larger, than Digitus agnatus. are both his first and third most necessary parts (or rather the whole sum) of all Popery, that is to say: that Christ's church here in earth must of necessity have one chief head: And, that the bishop of Rome is that head of Christ's church: In which two parts so necessary, that without them all parts of Popery must of necessity plainly perish, the man is content to be sober, and of a competent length, more for lack of store or stuff, than for want of will, you may be sure. But when he cometh to his Schiomachia, and skirmishing with his own shadow, Lord how he playeth the man in that unbloody battle, and triumpheth not before the victory, as they say, but of a conquest made, without dust raising, or blood shedding, without enemy slain, hurt, or put to flight, yea no enemy at all seen, heard of, or known. For M. Dorman can not be ignorant, that we in all our Sermons and writings of such mattiers, do make a most clear and evident difference between the functions and offices of princes, civil magistrates, and Priests Ecclesiastical ministers: And neither did we ever teach that Princes ought, neither did they ever desire, to execute the offices Ecclesiastical of ministering the Sacraments, preaching, excommunicatinge, absoluinge, and such like. Wherefore you do lewdly, and impudently abuse yourself M. Dorman, and all others too, so largely to confute that which no man holdeth: and so busily to prove that, which no man denieth. For when all this is granted you, what have you obtained: or what have we lost? Is it not well and plainly declared by the examples of king David, Solomon, josaphat, Ezechias, and jesias, that princes have authority in governing of the Clergy, & church matters, though they may not execute all ecclesiastical functions and offices? What though our most gracious sovereign Lady, being a woman, have not so great skill in feats of war, as have her captains: have not so good knowledge in the laws of her realm, as her justices, and other learmed men in the laws have: (though she have in all good learning, and in the scriptures too more knowledge, than had any of your Popes this seven hundredth years I believe, and therefore no let in that point, but she may be head of the whole church as well, and rather than the Pope) what if she sit not in public judgement, nor determine controversies, as do her justices: or be not general of an army, as are the nobles, her subjects? What, I say, if she can no● execute all civil offices in her own person? Would you therefore M. Dorman, take from her, her civil principality over her subjects, that she shall not be their Prince, and head under God? Surely you may with as good reason do it, as you would take away her superiority over her clergy from her, for that she can not, may not, nor will not execute ecclesiastical functions. Though the queens majesty have not that understanding of all the affairs of her realm, that experience in all things, that activity in executing them, that hath the whole body of her most honourable Council, yet doth the whole body of her Council, though most honourable, humbly acknowledge her to be their head: only proud Priests, because some things are incident to their office, which the Prince may not, nor list not to do, refuse their sovereign to be their supreme governor. Let the bishops be the Queen's Majesties most godly Council in matters of religion, (and I pray God they may so be) as is the other most honourable Council in civil matters: but let that godly Council, as well as that most honourable Council, be under the godly and most high honourable Prince, as superior to them both. To command things as well ecclesiastical, as civil to be done, to see them done, to commend, and reward all well doers of them, to correct and punish all evil doers of them, or negligent in their office, is the part of an head, or supreme governor: to do things commanded, is the office of inferior membres, and obedient subjects. But M. Dorman would prove, that the head is not the head, because it can not, nor list not do all offices of all the principal membres of the body: and seeketh for an head amongst the membres, because they can do some things, that the head can not. For this is in deed the very effect of that his second long treaty next following, a matter most meet for M. Dormans' dreaming head: in the which treaty his chief pains is t● prove that Priests, and not Princes, aught by their office to preach, to minister the Sacraments, to excommunicate, to absolve, to resolve men ●n doubts, and scruples of conscience, and such li●e. (which no man ever denied) yea and he thinket● that in so doing he hath spun a fair thread. Thus much hath M. Dorman, by his transition annexed to th'end of this his treaty of one head, occasioned me to admonish the readers of that matter: which as it may suffice for an answer to the whole treaty following, with all discreet readers: so shall I yet, for the satisfying of the meaner sort, particularly answer, as much as shallbe left untouched by the bishop of Sarisburie (for the same matters, as being before handled by D. Harding, are incident to the bishops answer of his book) specially, if there he any thing sounding against the Prince's supreme government over persons, and in causes, as well ecclesiastical as civil, or temporal. FINIS.