THE SUM OF THE CONFERENCE BETWEEN JOHN RAINOLDES AND JOHN HART: TOUCHING THE HEAD AND THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministery of the Church, the function of Priesthood, the sacrifice of the Mass, with other controversies of religion: but chief and purposely the point of Church-goverment, opened in the branches of Christ's supreme sovereignty, of Peter's pretended, the Pope's usurped, the Prince's lawful Supremacy. Penned by john Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by john Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which passed in conference between them. Whereto is annexed a Treatise entitled, SIX CONCLUSIONS TOUCHING THE HOLY SCRIPTURE AND THE CHURCH, written by john Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein. 1. joh. 4.1. dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they be of God: for many false Prophets are gone out into the world. Londini, impensis Geor Bishop. 1584. TO THE RIGHT Honourable, the Lord Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, one of her majesties privy Council, and Chancellor of the University of Oxford, grace and peace be multiplied. THe beginning of Schools and Universities (right Honourable) in the Church of God, doth show that they were planted to be a 1. Sam. 19. 2●▪ 2. King. 2.5. & 4.8. nurseries of Prophets: who, being instructed in the truth of his word, might deliver it to men; and lighten, as stars, the darkness of the world with the beams of it. But it hath come to pass by devices of the dragon, b reve. 1●. ●. whose tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, & cast them to the earth, that they have been turned into seminaries of false Prophets: to maintain errors and the power of darkness, against the light and truth of Christ. The primitive Church had experience hereof in them c Act. 6. ver. 9 of the Synagogue of Libertines, and Cyrenians, who disputed with Steven. A lesson for the faithful in the ages to follow, that they should not think it strange, or be dismayed, if Schools & Universities of men professing wisdom were possessed of folly, and sought to pervert the strait ways of the Lord. The consideration whereof, as it was needful for our predecessors, when Rabbins of the jews, Philosophers of the Heathens, Sorbonists among Christians, being seduced themselves, seduced others: so have the Seminaries of our English students (erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rheims) made it needful also for us at this day. The more: how much the nearer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines & Cyrenians. For as they defended d ver. 14. the jewish opinions received by tradition from their Fathers: so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions. As they did pretend the care of religion, e ver. 11. of Moses, and God, the law, & the Temple: so do the Seminaries, of the Catholic faith, the Scriptures, and the Church. As the means they used were slanders of Steven, f ver. 13. that he spoke blasphemous words against the holy place, and the law: so do the Seminaries charge us with revolting from the holy Church, and corrupting the Scriptures. I am not worthy to be compared with the least of the servants of God, who lived at that time, in which he powered the gifts of his holy spirit from heaven so abundantly. Howbeit, as it pleased him to raise Steven to dispute with some of the jewish Synagogue: so hath he vouchsafed me of this favour, that I should be called to confer with certain of the Popish Seminaries. Of whom, one, contented to proceed farther therein then the rest; by writing, not by word only: hath given occasion ofthiss, which here I publish. Wherein how indifferently he hath been dealt with: himself hath declared. My conscience, for mine own part, beareth me witness that I have endeavoured to defend the cause of the same truth, with the same purpose, by the same principles, & grounds, that g Act. 7.2. Steven did. Wishing from my hart, (if so it please God,) that it may prevail more with English Papists, than Stevens speech did with the jewish Priests. But ready (by his grace) to endure their spite, ifthey hate me for telling them the truth, as the jews did him. Now, sith Luke, who penned the story of Steven, sent it to h Act. 1.1. Theophilus, i Luk. 1.3. most noble Theophilus: I have been the bolder to present my conference unto you, right Honourable; advanced, in state, to be of the most noble; in mind, a Theophilus, and lover of the truth. Your benefits both publicly to our University, in maintenance of our privileges; & privately to me ward, a member thereof: have bound me to offer this testification of a thankful mind. And sith it hath been (I know) a grief unto you, that the Popish Synagogue hath drawn 〈◊〉. 23. 1●. proselytes thence: I thought it most meet that the labours spent with one so withdrawn, and printed to reclaim them who are gone, if may be, or at least to stay them who are not gone, should bring him the salve whom the sore had touched nearest. Which moveth me withal to beseech your Honour, that, as you have begun, so you will go forward in being careful for our nursery: that they, who have the charge of husbanding it, may fence it and dress it faithfully and wisely; that neither the wild boar of the forest, nor other vermin may annoy it; that l Ezek. 47.12. the fruits of the trees thereof may serve for meat, & the leaves for medicine, through waters running out of the sanctuary; and m Gen. 3.9. the tree of life may grow in the midst of it, as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leave a most worthy monument of a noble Theophilus: the reward whereof shall follow from God, n Psal. 6●▪ ●●. who will render to every man according to his works; the remembrance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland, to your eternal praise throughout all posterity. The Lord of his mercy bless you with continual increase of the graces of his holy spirit: specially of that, o 1. Ti●. ●●. which hath the promise of this life, and of the life to come, to your endless comfort, through jesus Christ the Lord of life. At London, the eighteenth of july. 1584. Your Honours in Christ at commandment, john Rainoldes. john Hart to the indifferent Reader. BEhold (gentle Reader) the conference, which thou hast so long looked for, between M. Rainoldes and me, at length ended: as also it had been more than twelve months since, had not myself hindered the coming of it forth, when it was nigh ready to be delivered to the Printer. For it is now above two years ago, that the right honourable, Sir Francis Walsingham, as he had showed me great favour from the time that I was apprehended, in granting me liberty of conference at home, first in mine own country, and afterward in prison: so, when the sentence of death was passed upon me, he ceased not still to offer me the same favour if I would admit it. Which I, grounding myself upon the most certain foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for ever, did gladly yield to, and (as became me) accepted of it with all duty. Whereupon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to confer with me: taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoever books I did need thereto. But after we had spent certain weeks together in conference by word of mouth, and I continued still in my former mind: he desired to have the sum thereof in writing, that he might see the grounds on which I stood. And to this intent we set down together brief notes of the points that we dealt in: I showing my reasons with the places of the authors whose judgement and learning I rather trusted too, then to my own skill; and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good. Howbeit, those notes being so short (as pointing to things rather than unfolding them) that they could not well be understood by any, but ourselves only, unless they were drawn more largely and at full: myself being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death, (as altogether uncertain when I might be called to yield up mine account before God and man,) requested M. Rainoldes to take pains to pen them according to our notes thereof. Promising him that I would peruse it when he had done it, and allow of it, if it were to my mind; or otherwise correct, if I misliked aught in it. This pains he undertook, and sending me the parts thereof from time to time as he finished them, I noted such things as I would have added, or altered therein, and he performed it accordingly. But when I perceived that it was prepared to be set forth in print: I sought means to stay it all that I could, for some considerations which seemed to me very great and important. Marry since that again understanding it to be his Honour's pleasure that it should go forward, whereunto he granted me also by special warrant the use of such books as I should call for to help myself withal: I set afresh upon it, & by letters written unto M. Rainoldes & received from him, I had mine own speeches & reasons perfitted, as I would. Wherefore, I acknowledge that he hath set down herein a true report of those things which passed in conference between us, according to the grounds and places of the authors, which I had quoted & referred myself too. As for that which he affirmeth * In the seventh Chapter, and the seventh Division. in one place, that I have told him, that my opinion is, the Pope may not depose Princes: in deed I told him so much. And in truth I think that although the spiritual power be more excellent & worthy than the temporal; yet they are both of God, neither doth the one depend of the other. Whereupon I gather as a certain conclusion, that the opinion of them, who hold the Pope to be a temporal Lord over Kings & Princes, is unreasonable and unprobable altogether. For he hath not to meddle with them or theirs civilly, much less to depose them or give away their kingdoms: that is no part of his commission. He hath in my judgement the Fatherhood of the Church, not a Princehood of the world: Christ himself taking no such title upon him, nor giving it to Peter, or any other of his disciples. And that is it which I meant to defend in him, and no other sovereignty. Humbly desiring pardon of her Majesty, my gracious sovereign Lady, for my plain dealing in that, which (so Christ help me) I take to be God's cause, and the Churches only. As I do also most willingly submit myself to the courteous correction of all men, who, through greater skill, and perfitter judgement, see more than I do in the depth of these matters whereof I have conferred. Farewell, gentle Reader: and now that I have showed thee my dealing herein, let me obtain this little request at thy hands, that thou be not too hasty in giving thy judgement, before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and uprightly. From the Tower, the seventh of july. john Rainoldes to the Students of the English Seminaries at Rome and Rheims. BRethren, my heart's desire & prayer unto God for Israel is, that they may be saved. For that which S. a Rom. 10. ●. Paul wrote to the Romans, touching the Israelites, b Rom. 9.3. his brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh, as being of one nation with him▪ that must I protest to you (brethren) yourselves, my kinsmen according to the flesh in like sort, and countrymen of England. Of whom I have the greater compassion and pity, because I am persuaded that you sin of ignorance rather than of wilfulness; and have a devotion to serve God aright, though not the right way wherein he will be served. That I may justly say the same unto you, which S. c Rom. 10.2. Paul of them: For I bear you record that you have the zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. The zeal, which the Israelites had, was of d Act. 22.3. the law. The knowledge, which they wanted, was the true meaning of it. For they expounded it after e Gal. ●. 1. the traditions and doctrines of their Fathers: and knowing not f Rom. 10.4. Christ to be the end thereof, they sought their own righteousness against the righteousness of God. The zeal, which you have, is of the Gospel. The knowledge, which you want, is the true meaning of it too. For you are instructed to understand it g Allen in the Apology, of the English Seminaries. chapped. 6. after the manner of your Fathers. Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand, that h chapped. 2. the Pope is supreme head of the Church; i chapped. 3. the trade of Popish Priesthood, the way to save souls; k chapped. 1. & 6. the sacrifice of Popish Mass, the sovereign sacrifice; in a word, l chapped. 5. that Papistry is the Catholic faith: and m chapped. 1. &▪ 5. the faith and service of the Church of England is cursed and damnable; specially, n chapped. 1. & 4. the oath of the Queen's supremacy. And your minds are taken so with these opinions, that you are content to venture as far in the defence of them, as the Donatists did, who loved their errors better than their lives. Great zeal, but not according to knowledge, my brethren. For the Gospel teacheth not that which you imagine; your Fathers were abused by Phariseis & Rabbins: your Pope hath usurped over all Christian states; your Priesthood is impious; your Mass, abomination; your Popish faith, heresy; our doctrine of the Queen's supremacy, & oath thereto, our ministery of the word, of sacraments, of prayers, agreeth with the Gospel, and therefore is holy. Which things sith this Conference, that one of your Seminarie-Priests, and I have had, doth open & prove: peruse it (● beseech you) with equity and judgement; and study to join knowledge to your zeal, that you may be saved. Perhaps your Superiors (the * isaiah. 9.16. guides who seduce you) will not give you leave to read it and peruse it. But there are two reasons which should move them to condescend thereto: the one, of the work; the other, of the authors. The work, is a conference: which themselves have called for. And o Allen, in hi● apology, chapped. 5. the chiefest of them hath wished, that some of theirs might meet in scholastical combat with any of us before indifferent judges: trusting that their doctrine, which we condemn of fancy and human tradition, should then be invincibly proved to be most agreeable to God's word. Wherefore sith this combat hath been undertaken, and that in such sort as p ●heologi●● Mini●●ri ecclesia●um ditioni● Casimiri, in Admonitione de li●ro Concord●●, cap. 12. learned men have thought to be most fit for trial of the truth; not by extemporal speaking, but writing with advise; the question agreed of; the arguments, the answers, the replies set down, and sifted of both sides, till each had fully said; in fine, the whole published, that Churches and the faithful all may judge of it: your guides cannot honestly deny you the sight of their invincible proofs therein. The authors of the work: are M. Hart and I. Of whom q Concertat. ecclesi●e Catho●licae in Anglia adversus Calvin. & Puritan. In epistola Lucae Kyrby, & Apologia Martyrum. they have given out in print to the world, sithence we began it, that I, 1 Quamuis doctissimus illius ordinis. though the lernedst (as the reporter saith) of that sort and order, yet 2 Tanto in doctiorem se esse ostendit. did show myself so much the more unlearned, how much the more earnestly I was dealt with: but M. Hart, 3 Egregium Christi Athle●am. a noble champion of Christ, and 4 Sanctum sacerdotem. a holy Priest, a 5 Sacrae Theologiae Baccalau reum. Bachelor of Divinity, 6 Firmiores egisse radices in fide● fundamentis. had taken deeper root in the foundations of the faith, and 7 Doctrina esse solidiori. was of sounder learning, then that the reasons, which I ( 8 Ministrum synagogue Anglicanae non vulgarem. no common Minister of the English synagogue) brought to overthrow him, could remove him from it. So that 9 infecta insecta, unde venit, ●ecessit. I was feign to go whence I came: and leave him, as I found him. Now, if they themselves think this to be true, which they have given out: they may boldly suffer you to read our Conference, that you may see the triumph, which a noble champion of yours, a holy Priest, a Bachelor of Divinity, hath had of a Minister of the English synagogue, an unlearned Minister, and yet the lernedst of that sort. But if they will not give you leave to read it: then may you suspect that these glorious speeches of their own scholars, and base words of us, are but sleights of policy; as many vaunts & lies be in the same pamphlets wherein these are written. Nay, you may suspect, that there is somewhat which they are afraid lest you should espy: and therefore debar you from the means of knowing it. In deed, my dear brethren, you are circumvented by r Allen in hi●●pologie The n●●ration o● t●e English 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉. them who commend the love, and liberality, and piety of the Pope, in erecting Seminaries to train up English youth under the jesuits and other famous men. For the love pretended towards you therein, is, to have you his servants. The liberality employed in feeding and teaching you, is, to make you pliable and fit thereunto. The jesuits and others set to train you up, are set to noosell you in heresy and treason, the pillars of his faith and State. The s Dan. 1. ver. ●. King of Babylon, Nabuchodonosor, did command Asphenaz the Master of his eunuchs, that of the Israelites he should bring t ver. 4. children, who were without blemish, well favoured, wise, and skilful, and had ability in them; & that he should teach them the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans. u ver. ●. And the King appointed them provision every day of a portion of his meat, and of the wine which he drank: that they, being brought up so for three years, might, at the end thereof, stand before the King Pope Gregory the thirteenth loveth you, brethren, as King Nabuchodonosor did the Israelites. x Allens Apolo●gi●. chapped. 3. He hath found the means that there should be brought to the Masters of his eunuchs, jesuits, & others, a number of the best wits out of England, that they may teach you the arts and tongue of the Romans. And y chapped. 2. he hath appointed provision for you of moonthly exhibition, in bountiful sort: but to what end? z chapt. 6. that after certain years of this education you may stand before the Pope. a Dan. 1. ver. 7. & 8. Daniel perceived that the King's love & liberality was not single; but sought his own profit: which b ver. 12. his fellows also, Ananias, Misael, and Azarias saw. If you have the spirit of Daniel and his fellows: you will see as much in the Pope's double love, and liberality. Sure, he giveth juster cause to distrust it, than the King did. For, the King's drift in training up them, that they might stand before him, was only that ver. 4. & 19 they should attend and wait upon him, as courtiers, in his palace. Or if, because he chose them ver. 3. of the blood royal, and seed of the nobility, he had a farther drift: it was but the assurance of their land of juda. But you are trained up by the Pope to serve him in provinces abroad, not in his palace at home; to subdue for him that which he hath lost, not to assure him of that he hath subdued; nor to make him sovereign of one land, but of two; and them not small of territory, and state, as juda was, but greater and mightier, England, & Ireland. For which a poorer fisher, than the Pope is, would be content to angle with a hook of gold, although it cost him more than your two Seminaries are likely to do. Pope Leo the tenth e Guic●iardin▪ hist. Ital. lib. 11 did spend a hundred thousand ducats in one day, upon the pomp and bravery of his coronation: f lib. ●●. and eight hundred thousand more in one war against the Duke of Urbin, to spoil him of his State, thereby to establish a nephew of his own in it. In his days Luther rose: the Protestants had not touched the triple crown yet. His successors have felt what danger it is in. If some of their offals be spent, with greater show of alms, on scholars now, chief on such scholars as may defend their crown: g Allens Apologic. chapt. 6. the Papacy (you know) is discreetly managed; this managing doth prove not less ambition, but more discretion. The policy of Gregory the thirteenth appeareth therein, not the piety. His cost h Genebrard. Chronogr. lib. 4. & in append. upon captains, & soldiers, and ships sent into Ireland, discloseth the fountain of his liberality and love to our nation. Whereof that is also a clearer proof, & plainer token, that the Masters of his eunuchs are set to teach you the arts and tongue of the Romans: as Asphenaz the Master of the kings eunuchs was to teach the Israelites the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans. I mean not the Italian tongue, though i The narration of the English Semin. in Rom. where they will you to learn that withal, it is a special point of the king's policy: but I mean the Romish tongue (so to call it) and language of Popery. The knowledge of the arts ye are not all taught; but ye are all taught the knowledge of this tongue, be ye Philosophers, or Divines: Philosophers, in sermons, in catechisms, in confessions; Divines, in the lectures of cases, of controversies, of positive Divinity, and (they, who can) of Hebrew, and school-divinity too. k Gen. 3.6. The woman was deceived through desire of knowledge which the serpent promised her. Great things are promised you by Seminarie-proctors of perfitter knowledge to be obtained there, then with us in England. And truly, for the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans, I think that the Master of the kings eunuchs taught them more exactly, than any of the jews did within jerusalem. But for the liberal arts and l isaiah. 19.18. language of Chanaan, the skill of our readers, the course of our studies, the orders of our Colleges and Universities are such, what through public lectures thereof, what through private, with sundry kinds of exercises to ripen the travails of students in them both: that, if I listed to deal, as S. Paul doth, with m 2. Cor. 11. ver. 13. the false Apostles, I might boldly say, n ver. 22. they are hebrews, so am I For if you excel us in one help of learning, as your harder state in a strange country may breed greater diligence than ours at home more plentiful: we countervail you with vantage in an other, as that we spend six years in the study of Philosophy, for that you spend three; seven in Divinity, for that you spend four. Wherein, I refer it to your own judgements, whether our so long time, though with meaner helps, be not as available to soundness & maturity of judgement & knowledge, (which years do greatly further:) as your helps, whatsoever they be, in so short time. Or ween you of yourselves, that, from your first entrance into the study of logic, o The narration of the English Semin. in Rome. three years can make you perfect Masters of the arts, so perfect, passing, eminent, as you are borne in hand? and four years as perfit graduates in Divinity? Or is not this hast used by the Masters of the Pope's eunuchs to dispatch you quickly, that you may serve in his affairs? But it was not my purpose to enter into comparison of our Colleges, with your Seminaries: much less of our two most noble Universities, with your two Colleges. Let your readers be as skilful as p 2. Cor. 11. ●●. angels of light; as painful, as q job. 1.7. & 2.2. the Prince of darkness. Let their orders and lectures, and exercises pass ours, as far as r 1. King. 11.10 the little finger of Roboam was bigger than his father's loins. The knowledge, which they teach you, is of good and evil: like that of the serpent which deceived the woman. It is not the doctrine of jerusalem, but of Babylon; the tongue of the Chaldeans, not the language of Chanaan, which you shall learn of them. Neither do they instruct you, as children of the Prophets, to stand before the Lord: but as the King's eunuchs, as Babylonish vasals, to stand before the Pope. When s Dan. 1. ●. Daniel requested the Master of the eunuchs that he and his fellows might not be forced to eat the meat and drink the wine of the King's provision, lest that (it being often Deut. 14.3. such, or u Dan 5.4. Rom. 14.21. 1. Cor. 10.20 used so, as was not allowed by the law of God) they should be Leu. 1●. 43. defiled thereby, and offend: x Dan. 1.10. the Master said unto him, I fear my Lord the king, who hath appointed your meat & your drink: for why should he see your faces in worse liking, than the other children that are of your sort, & so should you endanger my head to the King? A godly affection in Daniel, and his fellows: and savouring of the instruction taught them in jerusalem, y Leu. 11.44. that they should be holy, because the Lord is holy. But the Master of the eunuchs had learned an other lesson, that he must do in all things, as the King commanded. Which although he would have taught his scholars also, according to the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans: yet he showed (by mentioning his fear of the King) that he misliked not their scruple of conscience, & could be contented to grant their request, so that it were without his danger. Whereby it came to pass, that an z Dan. 1. ●●. other officer, whom he set over them, did grant it. I would to God (my brethren) the jesuits, & the rest, whom Nabuchodonosor of Rome hath ordained to be your Masters, used you no worse than Asphenaz did them. For then, notwithstanding they would say unto you, We fear our Lord the Pope, who hath appointed your doctrine & your faith, if your conscience grudged at some point therein as differing from the word of god: yet should not your souls be forced to that, & other overseers might give you better food. But other overseers & they are so linked all in one devotion to the will & pleasure of their Lord the Pope: that if you bring forth but a bud of such fruit, they nip it off strait, and teach you to think and speak in all respects according to the arts and tongue of the Romans. Whereof they have given experience & proof in many learned men & writers of your side. But three fresh examples may suffice to show it: even Ludovicus vives, johannes Molanus, and Carolus Sigonius. For vives had uttered (in a johan. Lud. ●●uis commen●ar. in A●g●stinum de civitate De●. his commentaries on S. Austin) some speeches that stood not with the Pope's liking: as namely, that b Epist. ad Regem Henricum octa●um. Princes are supreme governors in earth next under God; that c lib. ●8. cap. 43. human affections do reign oftentimes in the holiest men, and d l●b. 12. cap. 1●. 〈◊〉. 16. cap. 3●. & lib. 18. c. 44. Fathers have their oversights; that e lib. 8. cap. 27. Saints are esteemed and worshipped by many, as were the Gods among the Gentiles; that f lib. 18. cap. 31. the story of Susanna, of Bel▪ and the Dragon are not canonical scriptures; that g lib. 15. cap. 13. they, who prefer the Latin translation before the Greek and Hebrew fountains, are men of evil minds, and corrupt judgements; that h lib. 16. cap. 37. none must be blamed for the kind of meats, but for excess in eating, by the doctrine of the Gospel; that i lib. 17. cap. 5. Priests are ambitious, covetous, unchaste, enriching their bastards with the church's spoils, yea, k lib. 8. cap. 27. wicked and ungodly in causing things of Christ to be set forth in plays; that l lib. 18. cap. 2●. all things almost are sold and bought at Rome, & that by rules & orders of most holy law; to be short, that Schoolmen, through ignorance of tongues, have not only marred & smothered m lib. 3. cap. 31· all other arts, but n lib. 2. cap. 13. & lib. 19 c. 12 Divinity too; and o lib. 1●. cap. 11. & 24. lib. 13. ca●. 1. lib. 18. cap. 18. lib. ●0 cap. 16. & 〈◊〉 21. ●ap. 7. have profaned it with their curiosity, their vanity, their folly, their rashness in moving and defining questions, as Aristotelians rather then as Christians, and heathen Philosophers, than scholars of the holy Ghost. Now these, & sundry speeches more to like effect, the Divines of Lovan (in their late p Of Plantine● print, at Antwerp: in the year of Christ 1576. edition of S. Augustine's works) have taken out of vives: & shaving off his locks, as q judg. 16.19. Dalila did Samsons, have made him like an other man. Molanus, setting forth the Church of Rome's legend, r Printed at Lovan by Wellaeus, in the year 1568. the martyrologue of Vsuarde, with notes of his own, and D. Hessels Censure on certain stories of Saints, had therein discredited not only forged writings, bearing false titles, as s Annot. in 24. August. & 27. Decembr. tales of the Apostles fathered on Abdias; of t In 30. jun. Martialis, on Aurelian; of u In 5. Mai. Austin, on Ambrose: but also the reports of their right authors, though speaking not aright, x In Censura D. Hessels. Pope Adrian, y In praefat. ad Vsua●d. Martyrolog. cap. 20. Palladius, Cassianus, Nicephorus, and z In 25. Novemb. Simeon Metaphrastes. The chiefest defence of the Mass, of merits, of moonkrie, of nunnery, of the worship of saints, of relics, of images, and other superstitions and errors of Popery, doth stand on the credit of these records and evidences, or as good as these. Wherefore Molanus being reprehended, and told thereof a In praefat. po●ster. edit. Vsuard. ad lectorem. by many, was feign to be a Censor of Lovan to himself: and b In Vsuarde, printed lately at Antwerp by Nutius. to raze out his notes of them all, saving of Abdias, (a forgery c Sixt. Senensis biblioth. sanct. lib. 2. Claud. Espencaeus de continent. lib. 5. cap. 5. condemned by the Pope, & Papists, the Roman Inquisitors d In the year of Christ. 1559. many years ago,) with D. Hessels Censure wholly. Sigonius (in his story of the Weststerne Empire) hath written e De occident. Imper. l. 3. & 4. so of Constantine, that he hath not only not proved the charter of Constantine's donation, (a fable, that he gave the Western Empire to the Pope,) but hath disproved it. Cardinal Sirletus sent him word from Rome, that Balsamon, Caleca, Gennadius (hungry Greeks) have mentioned that charter. A miserable evidence against all ancient writers. But such as it was, Sigonius must enrol it, and use it gently, as f lib. 3. he doth. Though overthrowing g lib. 4. afterward the foundation of it: yet fearfully, poor man, and making his excuse, that he thought it his duty to show what Eusebius and many more had written, albeit not agreeably to the Church of Rome. So the dealing of Cardinal Sirletus with Sigonius, of many with Molanus, of the Divines of Lovan with Ludovicus vives, may teach you, my brethren, to what sort of service, or servitude rather, you are trained up by the Pope's officers: who, if you utter a word beside the arts and tongue of the Romans, will gag you by and by, and cut your tongues if they be long. Yet this is a freedom in respect of that slavery which your Masters fat you too. * Nescis ab perdita: necdum Laomedouteae sentis periuria genti●▪ Alas ye know not silly souls, nor yet do understand The thraldom of the Romish crew, & yoke of Popish band. For it is a small thing that they should restrain you from reproving falsehood, or force you to further it in points of lesser weight; (a hard thing for ingenuous minds, but small for them:) unless they lead you also, with heresy, and treason, to band yourselves against the Lord and his anointed in the Pope's quarrel, that he may be exalted h 2. Thes. 2.4. as God i Psal. 82.1. of Gods upon the earth. The anointed of the Lord, are k Rom. ●3. 1. the higher powers, ordained to execute justice and judgement over the good and evil. The Lord hath given charge of these his anointed, that all, even every soul, should be subject to them; yea, though they be infidels, as they were when this charge was given. Your l The jesuit Robert Bellarmin in his Roman lectures, controver 4. part. 2. question. 3. Wherein the rest follow h●m, after their common doctrine of the Pope● supremacy. Masters do teach you, that if they endeavour to withdraw their subjects to infidelity or heresy, then ought they not to reign: and the Pope, as judge thereof, must depose them. It were a point of scandalous doctrine and erroneous, to say, that 1 As Pope Innocentius the third doth, c. sol●tae. de maiorita●e & obedientia. the persons, over whom the power of the sword is given them, are lay men only, not the clergy. Much more, to add thereto, that 2 As the Rhe●mists do, in their Annot. on Heb. 5. ●. the things and matters wherein they have to govern, are only temporal, not spiritual. Bu●●o say, that 3 As Sanders, Bristol, Surius, and all the Papists do in maintenance of the Pope's Bulls against Princes. the Pope may deprive them of their kingdoms, nor only take from them some of their subjects in all causes, & all their subjects in some causes, but all their subjects and causes both, it is so ungodly: that m Sigebertus Monachus Gen●blacen●is. Sigebert, a monk, who lived five hundred years since, when Hildebrand the Pope did first usurp that power against the Emperor Henry; Sigebert, an historian, alleged by your champions for a special witness, n Saunder. de visib. monarch. eccles. lib. 8. demonstrat. 3. quód Papa non sit Antichrist. that the Church of Rome had never any heresy, o Campian. Ration. 7. nor changed aught in faith; p In Chronico. ad annum Christi. 1088. Sigebert condemneth it in the Pope as * Haec sola novitas, non dicam haeresis. novelty, and (though half afraid to call it so) heresy. This is the golden image which your Nabuchodonosor hath raised up to be worshipped. Beware of him, my brethren, who hath raised it up, and commandeth you to fall down before it. Though he have ensnared you with his meat and drink: yet learn of your fellow and friend M. Hart, to disobey him in this point. If you have not the courage to do it where you are, q Dan. 3.12. as Ananias, Misael, & Azarias did: return out of Babylon into your native country, & r Psal. 2.11. serve the Lord with fear, not in s 2. King. 23.13. the high places, but in t Psal. 5.7. his holy temple. But if you will neither return unto us, & will persist there to be the Pope's slaves, heretics, & traitors: I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have warned you to turnen from your wickedness; I have discharged my duty; your blood upon your own heads. LUK. 23.34. Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do. ¶ THE CONTENTS OF THE Chapters divided by numbers into sundry parts, for the sundry points entreated of therein. The first Chapter. THe occasion of the conference, the circumstances, and points to be debated on. 2 The ground of the first point, touching the head of the Church. Wherein, how that title belongeth to Christ, how it is given to the Pope: and so what is meant by the Pope's supremacy. Pag. 33. The second Chapter. The promise of the supremacy pretended to be made by Christ unto Peter, 1 in the words, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church: 2 and, To thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Of expounding the scriptures: how the right sense of them may be known, and who shall judge thereof. 3 What is meant by the keys, the power of binding and losing, promised by Christ to Peter, and (in Peter) to all the Apostles. Pag. 55. The third Chapter. The performance which Christ is supposed to have made (of the supremacy promised,) 1 in saying to Peter, Feed my lambs, feed my sheep: 2 and, Strengthen thy brethren. With the circumstances of the points thereof, Dost thou love me? and, I have prayed for thee Peter. What, and how, they make for Peter: how for all. Pag. 121. The fourth Chapter. The practice of the supremacy (which Peter is entitled to) imagined to be proved, 1 by the election of Mathias to the Apostleship: 2 by the Presidentship of the Council held at jerusalem: 3 and by Paul's journey taken to see Peter, and his abode with him. Wherein, as in other of the acts of the Apostles, the equality of them all, not the supremacy of one is showed. Pag. 151. The fifth Chapter. The Father's 1 are no touchstone for trial of the truth in controversies ofreligion, but the scripture only. 2 Their writings are corrupted: and counterfeits do bear their names. 3 The sayings, alleged out of their right writings, prove not the pretended supremacy of Peter. Pag. 184. The sixth Chapter. The two main grounds, on which the supremacy usurped by the Pope, doth lie. The former, that there should be one Bishop over all in earth: 1 because Christ said, There shall be one flock, and one Pastor; 2 And among the jews there was one judge, and high Priest. The later, that the Pope is that one Bishop: 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome (as some say,) 4 and the Pope succeed Peter. Both examined, and showed to fail in the proof of the Pope's supremacy. Pag. 230. The seventh Chapter. The scriptures falsely said to be alleged by the Fathers for the supremacy of the Pope, as successor to Peter. 1 Feed my sheep, strengthen thy brethren, and, that thy faith fail not, belong no more to Popes then to other Bishops. 2 The Pope may err in doctrine, 3 not only as a private man, but as Pope: 4 yea, preach false doctrine also. For 5 ●he may be a thief, a robber, a wolf; 6 and err not in person only, but in office too; as it is proved in every part of his office: 7 with answer to the reply made against the proofs for the defence of him therein. 8 The succession of Popes hath been prevailed against by the gates of hell: 9 and, when the gates of hell prevailed not against them, their rock did argue soundness of faith, not the supremacy. Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter. The authority 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to prove the Pope's supremacy: in vain; beside the scripture, which is the only rule of faith. The Fathers, 2 being heard with lawful exceptions that may be justly taken against them, 3 do not prove it. As it is showed first, in Fathers of the Church of Rome. By the way, 4 the name of Priest, the Priestly sacrifice of Christians, the Popish sacrifice of masspriests, the proofs brought for the Mass, the substance and ceremonies of it, are laid open. And so it is declared that 5 neither the ancient Bishops of Rome themselves, 6 nor any other Fathers do prove the Pope's supremacy. Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter. 1 The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Council, 2 the Council of Nice, 3 of Antioch, of Sardica, of Constantinople, Milevis, Carthage, Africa, 4 ofEphesus, of Chalcedon, ofConstantinople eftsoons, and of Nice, of Constance and of basil; with the judgements of Universities, and several Churches throughout Christendom▪ condemning all the Pope's supremacy. Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter. 1 Princes are supreme governors of their subjects in things spiritual and temporal: and so is the oath of their supremacy lawful. 2 The breaking of the conference off, M. Hart refusing to proceed farther in it. Pag. 669. The first Chapter. 1 The occasion of the conference, the circumstances, and points to be debated on. 2 The ground of the first point, touching the head of the Church. Wherein, how that title belongeth unto Christ, how it is given to the Pope: and so what is meant by the Pope's supremacy. RAINOLDES. You have heard, master Hart, The first Division. from the Right honourable M. Secretary Walsyngham, the cause why he hath sent for me to come unto you: to confer with you concerning matters of religion, for the better informing of your conscience and judgement. In the which respect you signified unto him yourself to be willing to confer with any man: so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withal. Hart. In deed I did signify so much to M. Secretary: neither am I unwilling to do that I have promised. Howbeit, I wish rather, that if a conference be purposed, the learned men of our side, whom we have many beyond sea, might be sent for hither, of riper years, and sounder judgement. As for me: the condition of conference with you is somewhat un-even. For I lie in prison, and am adjudged to die: the closeness of the one, & terror of the other, doth dull a man's spirits, and make him very unfit for study. I neither am of great years, nor ever was of great reading: and yet of that which I have read I have forgotten much, by reason of my long restraint. I am destitute of books: we are not permitted to have any at all, saving the Bible only. You of the other side may have books at will: and you come fresh from the university: whereby you are the readier to use them and allege them. These are great disadvantages, for me to enter into conference with you. Nevertheless, I am content, as I have said, to do it: so that my wants may be supplied with furniture of books, such as I shall desire. Rainoldes. The learned men of your side, it lieth not in me to procure hither. I would to God none of them had ever come from Rome with traitorous intent, nay more than intent: a Morton into England, Sanders into Ireland. Saunder. vi●ib. Monarc. lib. 7. S●nders l●tters to D. Allen & ●l●ick Burke. Geneb ●●d. Chronogr. lib. 4. to move rebellion against our Sovereign, and arm the subjects against the Prince. It had fared better both with you and others, who came from him that sent them. Your imprisonment and danger, which hath hereon ensued, I can more easily pity then relieve. I wish you were at liberty: so that her highness were satisfied, whom you have offended. The condition of conference, the which is offered you: is not so un-even in deed as in show. For although I come fresh from the university: yet I come from one of those universities, wherein b Bristol Demand. 41. yourselves report, that few of us do study: and those few that study, study but a few questions of this time only: and that so lightly, that we be afeard to reason with common Catholics: or, if we do reason, ●oti●●▪ 31. the common sort of Catholics are able to answer all our arguments, and to say also more for us, than we can say for ourselves. You of the other side have been brought up in one of those Seminaries, wherein d Deman. 4●. all truth is studied, the masters teach all truth, the scholars learn all truth: & the course of divinity (which our students, nay our Doctors and Readers can not tell almost what it meaneth) The narration of the 〈…〉 ●oome. is read over in four years, with so great exactness, that if a man follow his study diligently, he may become a learned Divine, and take degree. Yea, besides the Lectures of positive Divinity, of Hebrew, of controversies, of Cases of conscience: the Lecture of Scholastical Divinity alone, (wherein the whole body of perfect Theology doth consist) doth teach, within the same four years, all the points of Catholic faith in such sort, that thereby the hearers come to understand, not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith, but also whatsoever is in all the Tomes of Counsels, writings of Fathers, volumes of Ecclesiastical histories, or in any other Author worthy the reading. Wherefore, sith you have heard this course of divinity, and have been admitted to take degree therein upon the hearing of it: you may not allege unripenes of years, or reading, or judgement: especially against me, before whom, in time so long, in place so incomparable, you took degree in divinity: if yet our degrees may go for degrees, ●ulla Pi●. Quint. anno 156●. as Bristol saith Dem. 41. the Pope having deprived us of them. But you have no books, saving the Bible only. You are, it is likely, the readier in that book: chief sith g Narrat. of the English Semin. in Ro●●e at Rheims beside your private study of it, you were exercised in it daily, by reading over certain Chapters, wherein the hard places were all expounded, the doubts noted, the controversies which arise betwixt you and us resolved, the arguments, which our side can bring unto the contrary, perspicuously and fully answered. So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me: who can be content to deal with you in conference by that book alone, as by the book of all truth. Notwithstanding, though you complain, I know you may have more books, if you would have such as are best for you to read. But you would have such as might nourish your humour: from reading of the which they, who restrain you, are your friends. If a man do surfeit of variety of dishes, the Physician doth well to diet him with one wholesome kind of meat. Perhaps it were better for some of us, who read all sorts, that we were tied to that alone, & suffered part of your restraint. We are troubled about many things: but one thing is needful. Many please the fancy better; but one doth profit more the mind. He was a wise preacher, who said, h Ecclesiast. 1●. vers. 12. The reading of many books is a weariness unto the flesh: and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by * ver. 10. &. 11. the words of truth, the words of the wise, which are given by one pastor: even by jesus Christ, i 1. Pet. 1.11, 12. whose spirit did speak in the Prophets and Apostles, and taught his Church the truth by them. Howbeit, for as much as k Ephes. 4.8, 11. God hath given gifts to men, pastors, and teachers, whose labour might help us to understand the words of that one pastor: we do receive thankfully the monuments of their labour, left in writing to the Church, which they were set to build, either several, as the Doctors; or assembled, as the Counsels: & we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church. Yet so, that we put a difference between them, and that one Pastor. For l joh. 3. ●4. God did give him the spirit not by measure: the rest m Rom. 12.3. Ephe●. 4 ● had a measure of grace and knowledge through him. Wherefore, if to supply your whatsoever wants, you would have the books of Doctors and Counsels, to use them as helps for the better understanding of the book of Christ: your wants shall be supplied, you shall not need to fear disadvantage in this respect. For M. Secretary hath taken order that you shall have what books you will: unless you will such as cannot be gotten. Hart. The books that I would have, are principally in deed the Fathers and the Counsels: which all do make for us, as do the scriptures also. But for my direction to find out their places in all points of controversy which I can neither remember readily, nor dare to trust myself in them: I would have our writers, which in the several points (whereof they treat) have cited them, and build themselves upon them. In the question of the Church and the supremacy, Principior. fidei doctrinalium demonstrat. method. Doctor Stapleton; of the Sacraments, and sacrifice of the Mass, o De Sacramentis in gen. de sacram. & sacrific. eucharist. Doctor Allen; of the worshipping of Saints and Images, p Dialog. sex contr. summi Pontificat. etc. oppugnatores ab Al●no Copo editi. Doctor Harpsfield, whose books were set forth by Alan Cope, & bear his name, as q In the end of the book after the last dialogue, A. H. L. N. H. E. V E. A. C. that is to say, Author huius libri Nicolaus Harpsfield●eum vero edidit Alanus Copus. certain letters in them show. Likewise for the rest of the points that lie in controversy, them who in particular have best written of them: & for them all in general, S. r Summ. Theolog. & in Magistr. Sent. Thomas of Aquine, & s ●●ctata Rob●r●. Politan. in Summ. Theolog. ●hom. Aqu. Father Roberts Dictates, and chief Con●ess. Augu●tin. Hiero●●●. To●●en. 〈◊〉 Pa●is. 1●80 the confession that Torrensis, an other father of the society of jesus, hath gathered out of S. Augustine, which book we set the more by, u 〈◊〉. Con●●ss. Augusti. ad Lector. because of all the Fathers S. Augustine is the chiefest, as well in our as your judgement: and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers: whose consent is the rule whereby controversies should be ended. Rainoldes. These you shall have (God willing) and if you will Opus catechisticum Pet. Canii. jesuit. Canisius too: because he is so full of texts of Scriptures, and Fathers, and many do esteem him highly. But this I must request you, to look on the originals of Scriptures, Counsels, Fathers, which they do allege. For they do persuade you that all do make for you: but they abuse you in it. They borrow some gold out of the lords treasure house, and wine out of the Doctor's presses▪ but they are deceitful workmen, they do corrupt their gold with dross, their wine with worse than water. Hart. You shall find it harder to convince them of it, then to charge them with it. Rainoldes. And you shall find it harder to make proof of half, then to make claim of all. Yet you shall see both your claim of all the Scriptures and Fathers to be more confident than just: and my reproof of your writers for their corrupting and forging of them, as plainly proved as uttered, if you have eyes to see. God lighten your eyes, that you may see: & open your ears, that you may hear: and give you both a soft hart and understanding mind, that you may be able wisely to discern, and gladly to embrace the truth when you shall hear it. Hart. I trust I shall be able always, both to see, and to follow the truth. But I am persuaded you will be never able to show that that is the truth, which your Church professeth. As by our conference (I hope) it shallbe manifest. Rainoldes. UUill you then (to lay the ground of our conference) let me know the causes why you separate yourself, and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion? Hart. The causes are not many. They may be all comprised in one. Your Church is no Church: You are not members of the Church. Rainoldes. How prove you that? Hart. By this argument. The Church is a company of Christian men professing one faith, under one head. You profess not one faith, under one head. Therefore you are not of the Church. Rainoldes. What is that one faith? Hart. The catholic faith. Rainoldes. Who is that one head? Hart. The Bishop of Rome. Rainoldes. Then both the propositions, of which you frame your argument, are in part faulty. The first, in that you say, the church is a company of Christian men under one head. The second, in that you charge us of the church of England, that we profess not one faith. For we do profess that one faith, the catholic faith. But we deny that the church is bound to be subject to that one head, the bishop of Rome. Hart. I will prove the points of both my propositions, the which you have denied. First, that the church must be subject to the Bishop of Rome as to her head. Next, that the faith, which you profess in England is not the catholic faith. Rainoldes. You will say somewhat for them: but you will never prove them. Hart. Let the church judge. For the first, thus I prove it. The second Division. S. Peter was head of all the Apostles. The Bishop of Rome succeed Peter, in the same power over Bishops, that he had over the Apostles. Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops. If of Bishops; then by consequent of the dioceses subject to them. If of all their dioceses; then of the whole church. The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes. S. Peter was head of all the Apostles? The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops? I had thought that Christ our Saviour both was, and is the head, as of the whole church, so of Apostles, of Bishops, of all the members of it. For the church is his body: and he alone performeth the duty of an head unto it, by giving it power of life, of feeling, of moving: and y Ephes 1. 2●. him hath God appointed to be the head to the Church, and z Colos. 2.19. by him all the body furnished and knit together by joints and bands, increaseth with the increasing of God. Hart. We grant that Christ is properly the head of the church, the principal and quickening head. But this head is imperial, so to term him, and invisible. The Pope is a visible, and ministerial head: yet in truth a head also. * Staplet. principior. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 16. For of the head there are two duties: the one, to be the fountain out of the which there floweth life into the rest of the body; the other, to direct * Suo imperio. by his rule and power the outward functions of the body. The former duty doth agree to God alone and Christ. The later, to the service and ministry of men too. Rainoldes. This your answer of two heads doth stand with more reason, than a Pope Boniface the 8. c. unam sanctam. extra. De maio●it. & obedient. his, who said that Christ, and Christ's vicar Peter, and Peter's successor the Pope, are all but one head of the church. Howbeit, so to make a twofold head, as you do, by the variety of two duties: it is not to divide but to rend a sunder the duties of the head, and to make the Pope a head imperial rather then a ministerial. For, by rule and power to direct either the inward or outward functions of the body, is the chief and proper function of the head, agreeing to that head alone, that giveth power of life and feeling and moving to the body. Wherefore, sith Christ, having bound himself by his promise b Mat. 28.20. to be with us until the end of the world, doth give this power unto his church by the effectual working of his holy spirit, which doth quicken both the whole and every member of his body: they who do divide the pre-eminence of this duty between him and the Pope, allotting to him the inward, to the Pope the outward functions to be directed, deserve to be attainted of treason against the Lord. For seeing that to exercise this rule and dominion, is a prerogative royal, and proper to the king of kings: to give it either in whole or in part to any subject, can not be a lesser offence then high treason. Hart. If you account this to be treason against the Lord, and do attaint us of it: You must attaint himself of it, who by his word hath brought us to it. For S. Paul comparing the church unto a body, to show the sundry gifts of Christians, and in their sundry gifts their several duties by the similitude of members, doth mention a head amongst them: c 1. Cor. 12.21. The e●e cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee, nor the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Here the name of head must by all likelihood be meant of the Pastor in respect of the flock. But it cannot be meant of Christ. For he may say to us, I have no need of you: and so he willeth us also d Luc. 17.10. (when we shall have done all things that are commanded us) to say, we are unprofitable servants. It must be meant therefore of Peter in respect of the rest of the Apostles, and by consequent of the Pope in respect of all Bishops. Rainoldes. If Paul had so meant it, either of Peter or of the Pope: he had a tongue of the learned, he could easily have so expounded it. But, in the applying of his similitude to his purpose, he showeth that he meant, by the name of head, them who had the greatest graces of God's spirit: by feet, hands, and eyes, them who not so great, though greater some than other. Hart. Them who had the greatest? Nay: the name of head doth show it must be one, and that, one visible head (which we call a ministerial head under Christ) proportionable to the body of Christ, I mean the Church. Of the which visible and ministerial head those words of S. Paul may be truly verified, The head cannot say to the feet, I have no need of you. Rainoldes. Indeed, if the Pope be signified by the head, those words will fit him well. For e Reginald. Pol. Card. pro ecclesiast. unitat. defence. ad Henric. octau. lib. 1. Cardinal Poole discoursing on the same reason of the Pope's supremacy, doth make as him the head, so kings to be the feet. And it is true the Pope can not say to kings, I have no need of you. It would be hard going for him if they were not. But if, because Saint Paul doth in that similitude mention a head, therefore there must be one visible head proportionable to the body of Christ, that is, the Church: then because S. Paul doth mention the feet, there must be needs also two visible feet, by the like proportion. Now I would gladly know of you Master Hart, which you will make the two feet of your church. The Emperor I trow, must be the right foot. The left, who? The king of Spain? What shall the French king do then? It is well that the king of Scots is no member of it: nor the king of Denmark. Marry we had news of the king of Swethland that jesuits had converted him. Shall he be the left foot? Or shall the king of Poleland set in a foot for it? Or is the king of Boheme nearer it? There is a king of Bungo too, f jesuit. in epist. japon. lib. 2. & 4. who is reported to protect your religion in his countries, and g The epistle to the Council see before the epistle of the persecution of Catholics in England. likewise the Great Turk, & other princes of Mahomet's sect: they may be feet in time also. But how many feet may this body have? May it have six, seven, eight, may it have twenty visible feet: and may it not have ten, not four, not two, may it have but one visible head? Hart. Cardinal Pole compareth kings unto feet, not as though they were the lowest parts of the church, (for he counteth them as special members, though not heads) but because the church in the course of her growth was last of all increased with them, as with feet, and so did make an end of growing. Rainoldes. Then in Saint Paul's time the church had no feet, but a head without them. And what doth he mean to say that the head could not speak to the feet, when it had no feet to speak too? Hart. Yes, it had feet then, but of an other sort. For they, who were of lower degrees and meaner gifts in the church of Christ, are resembled to feet in comparison of others who were in those respects as hands, and eyes, above them. Rainoldes. And do you think the church had but two such feet? Or had it many hundreds? For christians were grown Ac●. 4.4 long before to thousands, and it is not likely the most of them were eyes and hands. Hart. It had (no doubt) many. But you must not rack the members of similitudes beyond the principal points whereto they are applied and meant. For else you might infer too, that the church must have but two eyes, and two hands, because a man's body (to which S. Paul resembleth the church) hath no more. Rainoldes. As you say. Yet this is the mould of your own reason, wherein you cast the church to have one visible head proportionable to the body. A fancy more proportionable to the limbs of Popery, then to Saint Paul's doctrine touching the body of Christ. For his drift and purpose therein is to show, that i 1. Cor. 12. ve●s. 14. & 20. as a man's body is made of sundry members, k ver. 21. & 25. which are not all as excellent one as an other, the hand as the head, the foot, as the hand, yet they are joined together to care one for an other, all to maintain the body: l ver. 27. and 28. so the body of Christ, that is to say, the church consisteth of sundry Christians, as members, some of greater gifts and callings than some, the Apostles than that teachers, the teachers than the helpers, m vers. 31, & the 13. & 1●. chapters. yet all joined together to love and serve one an other, and keep the church in unity. whereby it is manifest, first, that in naming n ver. 21. the head he considereth it not as a head properly, but only as a principal member. For so he apply it, naming all Christians, o ver. 27. members: and calling them the body of Christ, he putteth Christ to be the head. Next, that by the name of head so considered, he meaneth no one man, but all p ver. 28. first, Apostles. the Apostles, as them who were endued with the chiefest gifts, and placed in the highest function. UUherefore if that word be strained to the uttermost, as far as by the text it may: the proof that it yieldeth will argue a pre-eminence of the Apostles in general over the inferior members of the church, but no power of Peter over the rest of the Apostles, much less of the Pope over his fellow-bishops. Hart. Yet this it doth prove, that the name of head is not so given unto Christ, but that it may be given unto a mortal man also. Not as a head properly (you say,) but as a principal member. And what said I else? For I granted that Christ is properly the head of the church: the Pope improperly. Yet you reproved me for it. Rainoldes. I reproved you not because you gave the title of head unto the Pope, for he should be a pastor of the church of Rome: and pastors (for their gifts above the members of their churches) ought to be like heads, though many of them be tails e isaiah. 9. 1●. as the prophet calleth them: but because you named him head of the whole church, and that in such sort as it is due to none but Christ. For though you granted Christ to be the quickening head, that is to say, the fountain whence there floweth life into the rest of the body: yet you gave the Pope this sovereignty of headship, that he should direct * Suo 〈◊〉▪ by his rule and power the outward functions of the body. Wherein, as of the one side you debase the worthiness of his gifts, who giveth us Pastors and Teachers, in that you do appoint them to guide only the outward functions of his body, whereas f Ephes. 4.12. he hath given them 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to the full perfiting of his Saints: so, of the other side you detract somewhat from the sovereignty of Christ, when you give his servants dominion to guide his church by rule and power, whereas they are ordained, 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to the work of the ministry. Wherefore, howsoever you allay the title which you give the Pope, and say you call him head, not properly, but improperly, a ministerial head: yet you do imply that in this [improperly] which can agree to none but him that properly is a head, a head that doth quicken, guide, and move the body. Even as in g c. Ita Domi●us. Distinct. 19 your Canon law it is said of Peter: The Lord did commit the charge of preaching the truth unto him principally, * Cited out of Leo, in the Rhemish translation of the new Testament, to prove Peter's primacy, in the annot. on Mat. 16. ver. 18. to the intent that from him, as it were from a certain head, he might power abroad his gifts as it were into all the body. Hart. These words that you reprove in the Canon law, are the words of a man of singular wit and judgement, famous both for holiness and learning, h Leo Epist. 87. Saint Leo, an ancient father, who did flourish * About the year of Christ 440. above a thousand years ago. Rainoldes. They a●e the words I grant, of an ancient, a witty, a learned holy man, but a man: and, that is more, a Bishop of Rome. Now men, even the holiest, i Rom. 7 18. while they live in the flesh, have some contagion of the flesh: and learning may puff up, k 1. Cor. 8.1. as it did the Corinthians: and the best wits are soon tainted with ambition: yea l Mat. 20.22. james and john, * Marc. 3.17. the sons of thunder, desired superiority: and Rome a great City did nourish great stateliness, and that m Socrat. histor. eccle. lib. 7. cap. 11. Ammian. marcel. histor. lib. 27. even in the Bishops of that City * About the year of Christ 370. before Leo. So they loving pre-eminence, as n 3. john ver. 9 Diotrephes did, took all occasions to get it, and sought some colours to maintain it. Wherefore, as one (in o Cic. in Hortens. Tully) said to Hortensius, when he immoderately praised eloquence, that he would have lift her up into heaven, that himself might have gone up with her, as having greatest right unto her: so many Bishops of Rome, and Leo not the least of them, did lift up Saint Peter with praises to the sky, that themselves might rise up with him, as being forsooth his p Leo sermon. 1. in anniuers. die assumpt. suae heirs. The Epistles and Sermons of Leo have manifest marks of this affection: as, to give a taste of them, q Epist. 87. The Lord did take Peter into the fellowship of the indivisible unity: and, r Epist. 61. We acknowledge the most singular care of the most blessed Peter for us all, in this that God hath loosed the deceits of all slanderers: and, s Epist. 50. My writings be strengthened by the merit and authority of my Lord most blessed Peter the Apostle: and, t Epist. 62. Peter having confirmed the judgement of his See in decision of faith, hath not suffered any thing amiss to be seen about any of your persons, who have laboured with us for the Catholic faith: and, u Epist. 87. We beseech you, and advise you to keep the things decreed of us, through the inspiration of God, & the Apostle most blessed Peter: &, x Ser. 2. in anniver. die. assumpt. suae. If any thing be well done or decreed of us, if any thing be obtained of God's mercy by daily prayers, it is to be ascribed to S. Peter's works and merits, whose power doth live, and authority excel in his own See: and, y Serm. 3. in aniver. die assumpt. suae. He was so plentifully watered of the fountain of all graces, that whereas he received many things alone, yet nothing passeth over to any man but by him. To be short, Leo, & by his example his successors after him, are so full of such speeches, that in the common phrase of themselves and their Secretaries, all things pertaining to the Popes, were grown to be S. Peter's: their prerogative, z Epist. 45. S. Peter's right: their dignity, a Ibid. Saint Peter's honour; their stateliness, b Epist 87. & Sermon. 1. in ann. die assump. suae. S. Peter's reverence; subjection to them, c Epist. 87. subjection to S. Peter; A message from them, d Epist. 24. an embassage from S. Peter; Things done in their presence, e Epist. 4. done in S. Peter's presence: Lands and possessions given them, f Platina de vit. Pont. in johan. sept. given to S. Peter: And when they would have kingdoms, g Helmoid. in Chronic. Slauer● lib. 1. cap. 81. Princes must get them for S. Peter: Their territories and Lordships, h Pope Innocent the third Extra. c. per venerabilem. qui filii sintlegitimi. S. Peter's patrimony: Their * Bernard. de consid. ad Eug. lib. 2. usurpations tyrannical, i Abb. Vrsperg. in Chron. Hen. quint. Onuphr. de septem urb. eccles. in Palat. Lateranensi. S. Peter's royalties: Their good will, k Greg. Regist. lib. 4. Epist. 34. His favour: Their communion, l lib. 7. Epist. 69. His peace: Their indignation, m Platina de vitis Pont. in Greg. Sept. His curse: Their signet, n Popes in their letters sub anulo piscatoris. As Gregory the 13. in approbat. sodalit. B. Mari. His ring: Their closet, o Pope Innocent the fourth extra. cap. Maiores. de baptism. & eius effect. His See: Their City, p Onuphr. de sept. urbis ecclesi. cap. 1. His borough: Their poll money q Denarius Beati Petri. Eccles. Anglican. in council. Lugdun. apud Mat. Paris in Henr. 3. , even Peter pence too. Yea, it may be, that shortly they will take up Peter for a surname, as the Roman Emperors did the name of Caesar. For r Francisc. Vargas de episcopor. iurisdict. & Pont. Max. autori. proposit. 4. confirmat. 4. a famous Lawyer & Patron of the Papacy, saith, that the Popes may all be called Peter's. And s Campian. Rat. 4. our countryman who was sent to display the Pope's banner & * Summum honorem primae sedis episcopo, id 〈◊〉 Petro, deferes. challenge highest honour for him, doth name him the Bishop of the first See, that is to say, Peter. And De autoritate pontificis, ad Stanislaum O●●cho. Cardinal Hosius one of the Pope's lieutenants in his Council of Trent, doth write, that there is only one universal patriarch, Who? * Petrus Romanus. Peter of Rome: and that Peter of Rome did send his messengers unto English, French, Dutch, and other nations, to call them to the Council of Trent. Not Peter * joh. 1.44. of Bethsaida, but Peter of Rome did it. Hart. These things are small the most of them, and used to increase a reverend estimation and opinion of that See, to the which our Saviour committed the principality and government of his church. As for the points that seem greater in the words of Leo: they may be defended. For where he saith, that Christ took Peter into the fellowship of the indivisible unity: he might mean unity in will not in substance, as Christ doth pray for his disciples, u joh. 17.11. Holy father, keep them in thy name, that they may be one, as we are. Where he doth honour Peter with the title of my Lord: it is a common title, and given men of state both spiritual and temporal: yea x joh. 20.15. Mary Magdalen called him Lord (the word * Domine: as Leo, Domini mei. in Latin is the same) whom she supposed to be a gardener. The like might be said for the defence of the rest: with as great probability and perhaps greater, than you have to mislike them. Rainoldes. The smaller things, which you call, are some of them small, I grant, but like small holes in ships, at the which a great deal of water will come in, enough to drown the ship, if they be left open as long as these have been in the ship of the church. They had increased such an opinion of the Pope of Rome, Saint peter's See, as they termed it: that although he practised not a principality given him by Christ, but an outrageous tyranny usurped by himself over Kings and Nations: yet neither kings nor Nations almost, durst speak against him, at the least resist him. For if they did offend the Pope, they thought they did offend S. Peter. Now of S. Peter they were taught, that he is porter of heaven gates. They feared the porter would let none in, saving the Pope his * c. Ego Ludo●icus. distinct. 63. c. non qual●●. ●. q. 1. vicar's friends. So, to get eternal life, they served, and pleased, and féeed the Pope, lest that if he should frown upon them, Saint Peter's favour should be lost. UUherfore how small soever those things of Peter seem in trifling kinds of common speeches: they brought no small advantage to Peter of Rome's Court, and wealth into his Treasury. It is recorded y Beda ecclesiast. histor. gen. Anglor. lib. 3. cap. 25. of King Oswy in our English Story, that when, upon a controversy about the celebrating of Easter, there was a Synod assembled, and the one part alleged, that they followed the East Churches, which had received their rite of john the Evangelist, the Disciple whom Christ loved; the other part replied, that they followed the Church of Rome, which had received theirs of Peter, to whom Christ gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven: the King took up the matter, and judged with the Church of Rome, For * Ego vobis dico quia hic est ostiarius ille, cui ego contradicere no lo. I tell you, quoth he, that Peter is the porter, whom I will not gainsay, nay, I will obey his orders in all respects, as far as I skill and can, least when I come to the doors of the kingdom of heaven, there be none to open if he be displeased who doth keep the keys. This gross imagination of the keys and porter, and corrupt opinion of power to shut and open committed unto Peter only, (which the good king conceived of simplicity, his Clergy should have taught him better, but they did all agree unto it, and z Brist. motiu. 24. Staplet. in his English Bede Note (saith he) the conclusion of the king. their successors praise King Oswy:) the Captains of the Church of Rome perceiving it to be commodious for the advancement of their kingdom, and conquering of all the earth, have nourished very cunningly, by a Do for us, that S. Peter may forgive your sins. Gregory. to the Empress, Regist. lib. 4. ep. 34. their lessons, b S. Peter's successor. their titles, c S. Peter's Keys. their arms, d S. Peter's banner. Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 4. append. their ensigns, e Representing the keys as given only to Peter. their pictures, and other legions of policies, all in S. Peter's name. And on the credit of S. Peter they have pronounced that f c. Sic omnes. Distinct. 19 all ordinances of their See must be received, even as if Peter had confirmed them. They have taught, that g Pope Agatho in epist. Sext. Synod. Constant. act. 4. their Church persisteth pure from all error, by the grace and help of Peter. They have decreed that h c. in memoriam. distinct. 19 although it lay a yoke almost intolerable on us, yet we must bear it patiently in the remembrance of S. Peter. They have set abroach in the donation of Constantine, that i c. Constantinu● Distinct. 96. he gave them his own crown, of gold most pure and precious stones, to wear in honour of S. Peter, and that he held the bridle and stirrup of the Pope's horse in reverence of S. Peter. They have made the Emperor, as the Pope's vassal, to become k Sacra●. ceremon. ecclesia Roman. libr. ●. sect. 5. S. Peter's knight, and take his oath unto S. Peter, that he will restore S. Peter's land unto the Pope, if he get any of it, and will help the Pope to defend S. Peter's land. They have brought Archbishops to think l c. Quoniam quidam. Distinct 1ST. their power is nothing, unless the Pope do send them from m Sacrar. ceremonia. eccle. Roman. lib. 1. sect. 10. S. Peter's body, a pall, which hath the fullness of the pontifical duty. Bishops they have bound n c. Ego N. Episcopus. extra. de jure iurando. to promise by their oath allegiance and fealty, to Saint Peter, the Roman Church, and their Lord the Pope. Yea, o Felinus' Comment. in c. Ego N. episcopus de jure iurando. from Bishops they have brought the oath unto them, who receive dignities. And that which passeth all the rest, whereas the form of the oath p c. Ego N. Episcopus. Papatum sanctae Romanae ecclesiae & regulas sanctorum patrum adiutorero ad defendendum & retinendum. in the Canon Law doth bind them to defend regulas sanctorum patrum, the rules of the holy fathers: the Pope hath * Pope Gregory the 7. Mat. Paris in Henrico tert. heretofore, and Pope Gregory the 13. in bulla ad Mauricium episcopum Imelacensem. now doth put in steed thereof, regalia sancti Petri, the royalties of S. Peter. Such prays your Eagles take, though you do count them flies. But let them be flies or fowls, I will not strive. Only this I say, let the wise consider it, and mark the degrees of increase in the Papacy, and they shall perceive in this (what shall I call it) of Saint Peter's name, that although it were not any of the greatest, it was one of the finest tricks of spiritual cousinage, that hath enriched the Pope, and set the Church of Rome so high. Now, to come from these lesser unto the greater points in Leo, I know, if a man list to be contentious, it is an easy matter to say somewhat probably for the defence of his words. Yea though he had named Peter, not only my Lord, but (as q john 20.28. Thomas did our Saviour) My Lord & my God. It is a desperate cause that will admit no colour. The Hardin. confutation of the Apology. The Author of the discovery of Nichols. Stews of Rome have found patrons, and s johan. Casa episcop. Bene●ent. that which is worse than Stews. The t Sueton. in vita Domitian. heathens called Domitian, Our Lord God the Emperor. A u c. Cum inter. in glossa. extravagant. joh. 22. canonist saith of the Pope, Our Lord God the Pope. Blasphemous speeches both: yet a quarreler might allege in defence of them, x Psal. 82.6. I have said, ye are Gods. But the very y Sueton. & Sext. aur. Vict. in Domit. heathens, by the light of nature misliked the one, as insolent: neither have I read any papist, no nor jesuite, that durst defend the other. It was a common practice amongst the young students of our Universities in the time of the Dunces, (and is yet amongst too many, whom spots of Dunsery have stained,) that if in disputation they were brought to an inconvenience, were it never so absurd: they would have a distinction, though void of brain and sense, yet a distinction to maintain it. If a man will be perverse, it is no mastery to do it. But as z Vine● lib. 1. de causis art. corrupt. a wise and learned man doth say of them, that they are base wits which are so affected, whereas ingenuous minds & natures well given, will rather seek how true that is which they hold, then how they may defend it, making greater price of verity than victory: so I may say (yea much more in matters of religion, of faith, of life eternal) a Christian wit, and godly mind will search and weigh rather, what should be said truly, then what may be said probably, or colourably at the least. And I wish, if it had been the good will of God, master Campian had had the grace in the Tower-conference to have aimed at this mark: rather in sincerity to have sought the truth, then with shifts and cavils the maintenance of his cause and credit. But though he were froward, and did shut his eyes against the beams of the light: yet do you not so for God's sake, master Hart, in this conference of ours. Be content to open your mind to his grace, who * Re●. 3. 2●. standeth at the door & knocketh: and hearken to a Hebr. 3.13. his voice while it is to day. Beware of their example, who b joh. 5.44. could not believe, or if they did believe, c joh. 12. ●3. durst not confess Christ: because they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God, and hunted after honour one of another, not seeking for that honour which cometh from the Lord alone, Deny yourself. and your friends, and all fleshly respects, & give the glory to the Highest. Hart. I neither seek for shifts to darken the truth, nor love the praise of men more than the praise of God. It were a madness for a man to adventure his life (as we do, you see,) for the maintenance of error, or of his own credit. As for M. Campian I think of him as of myself. I heard the disputations, wherein he answered them who came to reason with him: and I perceived nothing in any of his answers, but sincerity and truth. Rainoldes. Myself was not present at the disputations, but I have read them 1 In a book entitled: A true declaration & report of the conference had in the Tower of London with Campian, etc. wr●●ten by one 〈◊〉 was present at the whole action. written: and that (lest you suspect the writer as partial) by a favourer of yours, who was present, as he saith, at the whole action. And (I do affirm it in singleness of heart, as before the Lord: neither do I doubt but all who have the wisdom to discern spirits will see the same, if they peruse them:) he sought in such sort to maintain the credit of his cause or person, as though he had set nothing more before his eyes, then to persuade his * Mat. ●3. 1● proselytes, that nothing could be brought against him, but he would show it made for him. I would not say so much unless I knew it by his fruits. For, to pass over his often glozing against the text, and facing out of places which pressed him most forcibly: things alleged out of the d As of the second Nicen council action. quint. Counsels, of the e As of Chrysostom in Mat. hom. 49. oper. imperf. Fathers, of f As of Gratian. dist. 19 can. in canonicis. others, which by the judgements of your g For the Nicen council, Sixt. Senens. biblioth. sanct. lib. 5. annot. 8. Barthol. Carranz. in samm. council. For Chrysostom Sixt. Senens. bib·s sanct. l. 6. ann. 104. Robert. Bellarmin. controu. 1. quaest. 6. For Gratian, Alfons. a Castr. adversus haer. lib. 1. cap. 2. Andrad. defension. sidei. Trident. lib. 3. and Campian himself almost too at last. own doctors, have that sense wherein we city them, he by shifts and cavils would turn their necks clean about, and wrest them unto his side: which argued more wit than truth, and sophistry than sincerity. But to leave him to the Lords judgement, and come unto yourself: you neither seek for shifts (you say) to darken the truth, nor love the praise of men more than the praise of God. I pray God your deeds be not as plain to prove you do it, as the reason which you add to prove you do it not, is weak. For what although it were a madness to do it? Many things are done which mad men scarce would do, and yet they that do them do think themselves well in their wits, as h Augustin. epist. ●0. ad Bonif. Com. the Donatists did, who adventured their lives in most desperate manner for the defence of their error, and maintenance of their credit: yea they offered themselves to the sword, the fire, the water, seeking for death as for a treasure, that they might die (they thought) Martyrs. But whether you do set the praise of men at that price, I leave it to your own conscience. That you seek for shifts, the thing itself doth cry. For your very answer in the defence of Leo, touching unity of will, not unity of substance, on these words of his, that i Leo ep. 87. Christ received Peter into the fellowship of the indivisible unity: is a shift to shield him from a just reproof. Let his own Discourse speak, and it will grant it. For having said before that Christ did place Peter as it were a certain head, to pour his gifts from him as it were into all the body: to this point he knitteth * Hunc enim in consortium individuae unitatis assumptum id quod ipse erat, voluit nominari. these words by way of proof. So that if the proof have any kin with the thing proved, the words must needs import some pre-eminence in Peter above all the rest of the Disciples of Christ. But unity of will, wherein k joh. 17. vers. 11. Christ doth pray that his Disciples may be one as he is one with his Father, is common unto all, not peculiar to Peter, l ver. 20. & 21. as Christ himself doth show. That plaster then of yours hath no virtue in it to salve the sore of Leo. Neither can you cure it indeed with any other. For the unity, which the Scriptures do note in God and us, is of three sorts: the first of persons in one nature; the second of natures in one person; the third of sundry natures and persons in one quality. In the first is m Deut. 6.4. One God: In the second is n 1. Cor. 8.6. One Christ: In the third is o Cant. 6.8. One church. The Lord received not Peter into the first unity: wherein the father, the son, the holy Ghost, are one God. Not into the second: wherein he himself consisting of two natures (God, and man) is one Christ. Into the third, wherein the Church is one with Christ her head, and the Church's members are one amongst themselves, he did receive Peter: but in society with his brethren, not without them in singularity. p Act. 4. 3●. The multitude of the believers were of one hart, and of one soul: They all are q Ephes. 4.4. one body, sanctified by one spirit, through the Sacrament of one baptism, knit to Christ by one faith, to themselves in one love, to serve together one Lord, in one hope and expectation of one eternal bliss and glory. So that, of this unity, whereof Peter's state and nature is capable, apply which you list unto the words of Leo, either unity of will, as you seem to do; or unity of grace, as r Harding in his Detect. lib. 3. cap. 33. others answer for it; or unity of glory, which s joh. 17. vers. 22. & 24. Christ did pray for also, and some will like that better: none of these do reach unto that majesty, which Leos words aspire to by giving him the fellowship of the indivisible unity. Yet God forbidden that any man should suspect of him, that he meant unity, either of nature with God, or of person with Christ. He hath deserved better, t In Ephesin. synod. secund. & council, Chalced. Leo. ep. 10. ad. Flavianum. then to be thought so evil off. But that which in truth may be said for him, is, that his meaning was (as u Sermon. 2. in anniuers. die. assumpt. suae. Serm. 2. in Nata. Apost. Pet. & Paul. otherwhere himself doth open it,) that Christ did impart his name of rock and foundation of the church to Peter. Now, some mist of fancy daisled his eyes, or else he would never have said thereupon, that Christ received Peter into the fellowship of the indivisible unity: and that, in such pre-eminence, as he received none but him: chief, sith he imparted his greater names and titles of x Hebr. 4, 8. Colos. 4.11. Aggae. 2.2. Zachar. 3.1. jesus, of Psal. 105.15. Christ, of z Mat. 5.14. the light of the world, one of them to some, the rest to all his servants: neither did he give his name of rock to Peter, or of foundation to Peter only, as shall appear * Chap. 2. Diuis. 1. after. But if yet you see not, that Leo did outreach, in making Peter as it were a felow-head, a partie-rocke, and the halfe-foundation of the Church with Christ: behold a farther fellowship, wherein he joineth Peter as mate and partner with God, a fellowship of power, a Leo Serm. 3. in anniuers. die assumption. suae God hath given to Peter a great and a wonderful fellowship of his power: and if he would have any thing to be common unto other princes with him, he never gave, but by him, whatsoever he gave to others. Out of all controversy these words do lift up Peter unto the fellowship of that glory of which God is so jealous, that he hath protested b isaiah. 42.8. he will not give it to any other: he hath given it to Christ, who is one with himself, God of God, light of light: if any man presume to join a mortal creature, whomsoever, as companion unto Christ in it, he robbeth Christ of his honour of the only mediator between God and man. And what doth he else, who saith ( c In the places before alleged. as Leo doth) that S. Peter's care shineth over Bishops in that their slanderers are defaced; that Peter's merit and authority doth strengthen the writings of his servant against heretics: that Peter doth not suffer their persons to be stained, who labour for the catholic faith: that the Pope's decrees are made by the inspiration of God and S. Peter: that it must be imputed unto S. Peter's works and merits, if any thing be gotten of God by daily prayers: that nothing passeth over unto the chiefest of the Church, no not unto any man, from God, but by S. Peter. Let every Christian hart, whom the zeal of God hath given any warmth unto, and his Spirit wisdom, be judge between you and us: whether that to yield such power, such authority, such sovereignty and rule of the Church of Christ, to any Saint in heaven, be not an impairing of the majesty, dominion, and sovereign authority of the king of Saints, the holy one of Israel. It grieveth me to speak so much against Leo: whose learning I do love, and reverence his ancient years. But Dan. 7.9. the Ancient of days, is more ancient than he, & must be had in greater reverence: who taught young Elihu job. 32.6. to reprove his ancients, f 33.12. even holy job amongst them, and to say of them, g 32.21. I will not accept the person of any, neither will I give titles unto man: for I may not give titles: If I should do it a little, he that made me would take me away. UUherefore, I do freely without courtesy of titles and accepting of persons, profess, that I mislike those haughty speeches in Leo: and I think that the mystery of iniquity so wrought through his ambitious advancing Peter, that of the eggs, which he cherished, two of the most venomous cokcatrices were bred, that ever poisoned the church of Christ: the one, the Pope's supremacy, usurping Princely power over the church and commonweal, with breach of faith to God and man: the other, the worshipping of Saints, wherein that honour is given to creatures which ought to be given to the Creator only. One example may show them both, even Hildebrand (called Gregory the seventh in his Popedom) who depriving Henry the Emperor of his Empire, and discharging his subjects of their oath of allegiance, pronounced sentence, with such an invocation of Peter, as a true Christian would tremble to have heard used to any, but to God. h Platina de vlt. Pontif. in Gregorio Septimo. Incline thine ears o blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, & hear me 1 S●ruum tuum: thy servant, 2 quem educasti abinfantia. whom thou hast brought up from mine infancy, and 3 ab iniquoram manibus vindicasti. hast preserved to this day from the hands of the unrighteous, who hate and vex me, 4 pro mea in te fide. for my faith in thee. 5 Tu mihi testis es optimus. Thou canst bear me witness best, and the holy mother of Christ, and thy brother Paul partaker with thee of martyrdom, that I have undertaken the government of the Papacy unwillingly. Not that I thought it robbery to climb into thy See lawfully: but I had rather live in pilgrimage than occupy thy room for fame and glory only. I do confess, (and good cause why) that the charge of the Christian people was committed, and the power of binding & losing granted unto me, 6 gratia tua no● meritis meis. not through my deserts, but by thy grace. 7 Hac fiducia fretus. Trusting therefore on this assurance, for the honour and safeguard of 8 tuae ecclesiae. Sigon. de regno Italiae lib. 9 which better agreeth with the rest, than (as Platina hath it) suae. thy holy church, in the name of God almighty, the father, the son, and the holy Ghost, I throw down King Henry, the son of Henry sometime Emperor (who hath laid hands too boldly and rashly 9 in ecclesiam tuam. upon thy church) from his imperial and kingly government: and I absolve all Christians subject to the Empire, from that oath by the which they are wont to bear faith & allegiance unto true Kings. Do you see to what iniquity their pride, abusing Peter's name, and claiming all by him, hath puffed them up? To what usurping over Emperors? To what dishonouring of the Almighty? But of this we shall have fit occasion to confer, when we come to the question of the worship of saints. For the other, (to return to the point which we have in hand:) the name of head, in that sense, as it is made a conduit of the gifts of God, to power them abroad into all the body, is only due and proper unto the Mediator between God & man, the Apostle of our profession, our Saviour jesus Christ. When the right of this title is called into question: every knee must bow in heaven, in earth, and under the earth, and yield it unto him whom God hath set at his right hand above all powers and principalities. Wherefore, I say not, if a man, if Leo, (whom hope of profit might blind, taking himself for Peter's heir,) but if an Angel from heaven do give it unto Peter: shall I say i 〈◊〉. 1.8. with the Apostle, Let him be accursed? I will not take on me that sentence: but this I will say, the sin is very heinous▪ How much more heinous, that it is pretended, in show, unto Peter: in deed, by Peter's name conveyed to the Pope. For as boldly as Leo apply it to Peter: so boldly doth k johan. de Tur●ecremat. in Su●●m. de Ecclesi● lib. 2. cap. 12. a Cardinal apply it to the Pope. And l Gul. Durand. in Rationali diviner. officior. lib 2. cap. 1. a Bishop, (venturing further than the Cardinal) not content to vouch that the Pope is Melchisedec, excelling the rest incomparably in priesthood; affirmeth farther of him, that he is head of all Bishops, from whom they do grow as members grow from the head, and of whose fullness they do all receive. Of Christ it is written, that m joh. 1.16. of his fullness we do all receive: that he is n Heb. 6.20. a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec: that he is o Ephe, 4.16. the head of whom all the body being coupled and knit together by every joint given to furnish it, through the effectual power, in the measure of every part, receiveth increase of the body. But to give these privileges unto the Pope, that he is Melchisedec, the head of all Bishops, and of his fullness they do all receive: O Lord, in how miserable state was the Church, when this did go for catholic doctrine? Was not the prophecy then fulfilled, of p 2. Thess. 2.4. the man who should sit in the Temple of God, as God? Hart. I marvel what you mean to take us up so sharply, as for a heinous matter, that we call the Pope, head of the church: whereas you give that title yourselves to the Queen whom it may less agree to. So one that preached to us h●re not long ago in the Tower-chappell, did make a long talk to prove that Christ only is head of the church, and charged us with blasphemy, for saying that the Pope is head: & yet himself praying for the queens majesty did name her supreme head of the church of England: wherein we smiled at his folly. For if it be no blasphemy to call the Queen head: why should it be blasphemy to call the Pope head? Rainoldes. We give unto her highness the title, not of head, but of q The oath of the 〈…〉 li. 5. c. 5. Supreme governor: and that upon how just ground of God's word, and high commission from the highest, it shall in * Chap. 10. Diuis. 1. due place be showed if you will. As for the Preacher, whom you mention: I had rather you would deal with me by public monuments and writings of our church, as I do with you, then by reports of private speeches: for perhaps you fancied more than he said: perhaps he said so much that you were glad to smile it out with that fancy. But if your report of his Sermon be true, it is likely that he gave the name of head to the Queen in the same meaning that we do the title of supreme governor, which I will prove to be godly: and he denied the Pope to be head in an other meaning, in which that name belongeth unto Christ alone, condemning them of blasphemy who give it him so. And they, who did smile hereat, as at folly, because they were Papists, might, if they were paynim, smile at the scriptures too: which do give the title of Exod. 22.28. joh. 10.35. Gods unto governors, and yet condemn them who have s Exod. 20.3. Deut. 13 2. other Gods beside the Lord. For if it be, no blasphemy to call the Magistrates Gods: why should it be blasphemy to call t Act. 14.11. Mercurius and jupiter Gods? Is not this your reason? But our doctrine as it is holy and true, so it is plain: if men will rather learn it humbly, as Christians, then laugh at it as Lucian's, or, as julian's, revolt from it. For we teach u Apologia ecclesiae Angl. Confess. Helu●●. cap. 17. that Christ is the head of the church, as he doth quicken it with his spirit, as he is the light, the health, the life of it: and is present always to fill it with his blessings, and with his grace to govern it. In the which respects, because x Ephes. 1.22. & 4.15. & 5.23. Coloss. 1.18. & 2.19. and so the Church, his body. the Scripture giveth the name of head to Christ alone, by an excellency: thereof we so conclude, that he is the only head of the church. For otherwise, we know, that (in an other kind and degree of resemblance) they may be called heads, who have any pre-eminence of place or government over others. As in the Hebrew text we read y Nehem. 11.16. the heads of the Levites, for the chief of them: and, z 2. Chr. 31.10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the priest the head, that is to say, the chief Priest. After the which sort, I will not contend, if you entitle Bishops heads of the churches, as a In apolog. 2. Athanasius doth: and b In Registr. li. 4. epist, 38. Gregory, when he had named our Saviour Christ the head of the universal church, he calleth Christ's ministers as it were heads: Paul, Andrew, john, heads of particular flocks, yet members of the church, all under one head. Hart. You grant in effect, as much as I require. For, if either Bishop or Cardinal have given that unto the Pope, which is due to Christ, as he is head properly: we maintain them not. We say that as pastors, all who have the charge to govern the church, are heads after a sort, that is improperly, as I termed it: so the Pope, who is the chiefest of them all is the supreme head. And in this sense you must take us, when we do entitle Stapleton. in dedicat. principiorum fid. doctrine. Gregor. de●imo tertio, Pon. Opt. Max. the Bishop of Rome the supreme head of the church. Rainoldes. I will take you so. Howbeit, for as much as the name of head hath sundry significations in this kind of speeches as the scripture showeth, 1. Cor. 11.3. God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of the woman; Esay 7.8. the head of Syria, Damascus; the head of Damascus, Retzin; the king, 1. Sam. 15.17. the head of the tribes of Israel; and Exod. 6.13. the heads of households, the eldest; and 1. Kin. 21.9. the head of the people, the foremost; and Esay 2.2. the head of the mountains, the highest; and Exod. 30.23. the head of the spices, the chiefest; &, in offenders Num. 25.4. the heads, the principal; and amongst David's captains, 2. Sam. 23. ver. ●. & 13. & 18. the heads, the most excellent, some of the which import a pre-eminence of other things, not of power, and they that do of power, some import a greater power, some a lesser: I would understand particularly what power you give unto the Pope by calling him supreme head, lest afterward we vary about the meaning of it. Hart. The power, which we mean to him by this title, is * Staple● princip. doct. lib. 6. in praefat. And herein the Rhe●ish annotations on the new Testament (Mat. 16. ●9▪) follow D. ●●●apleton: as also in the handling of Scriptures and Fathers for this whole matter of the Pope's supremacy commonly they 〈◊〉. that the government of the whole church of Christ throughout the world doth depend of him: in him doth lie the power of judging and determining all causes of faith; of ruling counsels, as Precedent, and ratifying their decrees; of ordering and confirming Bishops and pastors; of deciding causes brought him by appeals from all the coasts of the earth; of reconciling any that are excommunicate; of excommunicating, suspending, or inflicting other censures and penalties on any that offend, yea on Princes and nations; finally, of all things of the like sort for governing of the church, even what soever toucheth either preaching of doctrine, or practising of discipline in the church of Christ. Rainoldes. And all this you mean by the Pope's supremacy. A power, very great in weight, and large in compass, for one man to wéeld: yea, for one Apostle, much more for one Bishop. Bishop of Rome is he, or Bishop of the whole world? You said that you call him a head improperly. I ween you give this power improperly to him also. For out of all doubt you can never prove that it belongeth to him properly. The second Chapter. The promise of the supremacy pretended to be made by Christ unto Peter, 1 in the words, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my church: 2 &, to thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Of expounding the scriptures: how the right sense of them may be known, and who shall judge thereof. 3 what is meant by the keys, the power of binding and losing, promised by Christ to Peter, and (in Peter) to all the Apostles. HART. How large and great soever this power and supremacy doth seem in your eyes: The first Division. it belongeth properly to the Bishop of Rome. And that is already proved by the reason which before I made. S. Peter was head of all the Apostles. The Bishop of Rome succeed Peter in the same power over Bishops that he had over the Apostles. The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of all Bishops, and by consequent of their dioceses, that is of all the church of Christ. Rainoldes. Remember in what sense you take the name of head: and I deny both the propositions of this argument. Hart. I will prove them both: and first the former. Christ did promise Peter that he would make him head: therefore he did make him. Rainoldes. He did not promise him. Hart. * Staplet. pri●cip. doctrine. lib▪ 6. cap. 2. Christ did say unto him, n Mat. 16.18. Tu es Petrus, & super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam: Thou art Peter, and upon this peter will I build my church. Therefore he did promise him. Rainoldes. The reason doth not follow. But why do you english it so, Thou art Peter, and upon this peter? o Sanders rock of the church. Bristol Me●tin. 47. Your doctors were wont to cite it, Thou art Peter, & upon this rock: and to that rock you tied all. Do you fear shipwreck there now? Hart. No sir. But to make our ankerholde the surer, the which is fastened on S. Peter, Doctor Allen thought good that in the translation of the new testament into our tongue, which we were about at Rheims, As in their Annotations on Mat. 16.18. they say it should be by Christ's words speaking in the Syriake tongue: yea, and by the meaning of the greek words too. Though they keep the name of rock in their text, because of the latin. it should be thus englished; Thou art Peter and upon this peter. The which I rather follow, than the other of the rock, because it is agreeable unto the original. Rainoldes. It is not. For the original is the Greek text: and that hath, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. whereto your latin old translation agreeth, with Petrus and petra: as yourself alleged it. The words of both which though they differ not so much as Peter and rock: yet they are not one, as your Peter and peter. Hart. Although the Greek words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 differ in termination: yet they are one in meaning, and signify the same thing. For as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth a rock, so doth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Athenian language. And it must be noted that Christ spoke in Hebrew, or rather in the Syriake tongue: wherein the name, that he gave Peter, is p joh. 1.42. Cephas. Now, in the Syriake translation of the testament, that word is the same without difference in both places. * Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca 3. For thus are the words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: as if a man would say, Thou art Cephas, and upon this Cephas; or, Thou art Rock, and upon this rock. For Cephas in the Syriake doth signify a rock: as q In dictionar. Syro-chald. Regior. Biblior. Tom. 6. Guido Fabricius a learned linguist showeth. wherefore the meaning of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must be the same in greek. And so we may keep it well in both places, Thou art Peter and upon this peter. Rainoldes. The words which you allege are not of the Syriake translation: they are Hebrew. But as the Hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one in both places: so the Syriake I grant hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in them both. And I gladly take it (because our Saviour Christ spoke in that tongue) as an exposition of his words to Peter. Yet I note by the way, that although your r Session. 4. council of Trent hath allowed the latin old translation alone as authentical, and hath decreed thereof that no man shall dare or presume under any pretence to reject it: notwithstanding, you yourselves will departed from it, and that not only to the original (which we should not be suffered) but also to translations, if they may seem to make for you in any point more than your old doth. Hart. We do not reject that authentical translation, but open the sense of it, by comparing it with the greek, and the Greek with the Syriake. Rainoldes. But if we should do so in any point against you, this answer would not serve us: it would be accounted a colour or pretence, such as your Council hath condemned. Hart. You do us great injury, in that you seem to make it all one to reject the authentical Latin, and to take advantage for ourselves out of the original texts. Rainoldes. For yourselves? Nay, I make not that all one. I said, If we should do so, not, If you should do so. For do you what you list: and all must be soothed as agreeing with your Latin, and opening the sense of it. But if we should take advantage for ourselves by the original texts: our advantage would be nipped on the head as a pretence. For example, Andreas Masius, a learned man of yours, hath written a Commentary on the book of josua: in the which he lanceth your authentical Latin, almost in every Chapter: yea, s S. Andr. Mas. commentar. in josu. cap. 14. ver. 15. he saith that S. Jerom, (if he be the Author of it) doth seem to have translated * Sciens. wittingly a place against the meaning of the Hebrew, that he might vouch a fancy of his own thereby. Yet t joh. Molanus Lovaniensis. the Popish Censor, who allowed it to the print, witnesseth of that Commentary that a Multúm elucidat veterem & vulgatam editionem. it lighteneth and openeth the common old translation greatly. Let us do much less, let us but raze the credit of it: and will you give that Censure of us? Nay, if we do note that u Gen. 8.21. where your old translation hath of the frame or imagination of man's hart, that it is 1 Lat. in malum prona. prone to evil, the Hebrew text hath, not prone to evil, but 2 Hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 evil: x Censura Colon. in Dialog. 2. the Censure of Coolein will answer that it is far * Longé consultius. better to say (as your old translation saith) prone to evil: and will fetch in also the Rabbins of the jews, not to expound the Latin according to the Hebrew, but to allay the Hebrew according to the Latin. Wherefore in that I said that if we should go from your authentical Latin to the original texts, it would be misliked of: I do you no injury. Yet I mislike it not in your plea for Peter, that you take advantage not of the original, but of a translation: nay, I like it well. Though I like not that which you add to prove it: that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Greek tongue doth signify a rock, as Cephas in the Syriake, and so the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, have one meaning. For they have one meaning, not because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signify a rock, as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: but because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signify a stone, as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. For, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometimes signifieth a stone: q In Lexie. gra●. ad Sacri appar. instruct. Reg. B●●blior. Tom. 6. your own learned linguists (as you call them) note, and examples thereof are rife. But that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any where signifieth a rock: neither do they show, nor have r Thesaur. ling● Graec●e congest. ab Henr. Stephan. other skilful of that tongue observed. You say, that it is so in the Athenian language: but you bring no Athenian nor any Grecian else to witness it. And the French tongue (which followeth the Greek, Hen. Stephan. de similit. ling. Graecae & Gallicae lib. 3. as in many other words, so in this,) hath * Pierre. the same word (you know) for a stone, and for the name of Peter. Wherein there is a print of the true original & meaning of that name in the Greek tongue. But Christ did call him Cephas in the Syriake tongue: and Cephas (you say) doth signify a rock, as Fabricius showeth. But t In Dictionar. Syro-chaldaico. Fabricius showeth further that Cephas doth signify a stone also. And though he, or rather u Elias Levita in Thisbi. the jew (whom he citeth) reporteth their saying who expound the name as taken from that word in signification of a rock: yet, having mentioned the other of a stone, he saith thereupon that so his name is Peter in the Roman tongue, and in the Italian a stone is called * As Elias writeth it. He meaneth pietra: which word in the Italian keepeth that meaning of petra, from which the name of Peter grew. pereda. Whereunto I might add that x Aber. Ezra in Daniel. cap. 11. vers. 37. an other learned writer of the jews, and ancienter than he, doth likewise say (as opening the sense of Peter's name) that he is called stone. But, that Christ did mean a stone, not a rock, in naming him Cephas: your stoutest champion, D. Sanders, may serve in steed of many witnesses. For he, wanting no will to go as far as the boldest, and having many years advised of the matter, durst say no more for Cephas, but y 1. De visib. Monarchia eccles. l. 6. c. 7. that it signifieth a stone, at the most, a great stone: even petra itself z lib. 6. ca 2. he doth expound in this manner, Super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam, Thou shalt be the first stone (next me) of that church, which I will build on earth. In the which judgement he doth deserve the greater credit at your hands, because he was contented to hazard his life with the Pope against his Prince in that a As himself termeth it in his letters written to Vllick Burck an Irish Gentleman. holy quarrel: and having spent his chiefest study in the point b In his book entitled, the rock of the church. he had before times expounded it a rock; the which exposition so fit for the Papacy he would have never left, had not the truth enforced him to retire from it. A thing so much the likelier, because when he laboured first to infect men with the Pope's supremacy by the name of rock, and therefore both in the title and course of all his book did sound the rock of the church: even than c In the chap. 1. he did expound Cephas and Peter doubtfully, a rock, or a stone; and yielding the reason why Christ did name him so, he mentioned a stone only, because what place a stone hath in holding up the house which is built upon it, the same should Peter have in upholding the frame of Christ's militant church. Wherefore you must let go your hold of the rock, (whereon d Princ. doctrine. lib. 6. cap. 5. D. Stapleton doth beast your house is built) and be content to lay a stone in steed of it. Let our Saviour Christ alone be the rock. If you dash yourself against him therein, he will break you in pieces. Hart. It is a disputable point. You see that learned men are of sundry judgements in expounding of it: some thinking, it betokeneth a stone, some a rock. Wherefore you can not force me to take the one and leave the other. Rainoldes. Not by men's words: but by the word of God I can. For Christ in the Syriake tongue did name him Cephas, and e joh. 1. 4●. Cephas in the Greek is expounded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in English signifieth a stone. And sure you had done better, if, as the Greek text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the Syriake translation Cephas & Cephas: so you had made it in English, stone and stone. For Peter and peter doth not express the force of the Syriake word. Rock and rock is strong, but the text doth not bear it. Stone and stone is fit, had you not thought it too slender. Now, sith you do press the Syriake translation, to show thereby the meaning of the Latin, as you say: you must give me leave to tell you that the words should be rather Englished after the Syriake thus, Thou art stone, and upon this stone will I build my church. Hart. Rock or stone, if I should give you leave to choose whither of them you list: what gain you thereby? Rainoldes. The truth, which I deal for, shall gain thus much by it, that although you construe those words (that Christ would build his church upon Peter) for your most advantage, even as Sanders doth: yet is it not proved thereby that Christ did promise him a supreme-headship over the Apostles. For the church of Christ, which is the company of Gods elect and chosen, isresembled in Scripture to a material temple, such as was the temple which Solomon built. So, as that was called a house, f Ma●▪ 22. 1●. the house of prayer: in like sort the church is called a house too, but g 1. Pet. 2.5. a spiritual house, to distinguish it from that: which house because it must be made of all the godly, as it were of stones, grounded on Christ by faith, though the doctrine of the Apostles: therefore Christ is called h isaiah. 2●. ●●. the chief corner stone in respect of the jews and Gentiles (as of walls) 1 Eph. 2.14. which are joined in him: * 1. Cor. 3.11. the foundation, in respect of the whole house, yea h isaiah. 28.16. the foundation of foundation, as the Prophet termeth him: the twelve Apostles laid next upon Christ are called i Reu. 21.14. twelve foundations: the faithful laid on them, or rather after them on him, are called k 1. Pet. 2.5. stones, not dead ones (such as the temple had) but living: the working and framing of them to this purpose is called building and l 1. Cor. 12.26. edifying: which is done by preaching of m Eph. 2. ver. 20. the word of truth, n ver. 21. coupling them together between themselves and with Christ, that they may grow to be a holy temple in the Lord, o ver. 22. for God to dwell in by his spirit. Wherefore if the words of Christ be so taken, that he meant the laying of Peter as a principal stone next to himself, and others upon him, when he said, Thou art stone, and upon this stone will I build my church: this showeth that Peter was in the first rank (as I may say) of stones, I mean he was in order with the first who believed: and amongst those first he had a mark of honour, in that he was named stone, above his brethren. But it showeth not, that he should be head of the rest of the Apostles. For, as he, so they are called foundations: and Christ did build his church as well on them as on him. Hart. Then you grant, that Christ did promise to build his church upon Peter. Rainoldes. I do so. Hart. Not upon his doctrine only, but his person. Rainoldes. After a sort. What then? Hart. What then? What say you then to Doctors of your own side, namely to p In sophismatis Turrian. loc. 2. Sadeel and q The treatise of the church chap. 7. Mornay: whom you praised so greatly, and brought them me to read? They writ that the church was builded, not upon the person of Peter, but upon his doctrine preaching Christ unto us. You grant the contrary. Rainoldes. What say you to the ancient Doctors whom they follow: chief to S. Austin? He writeth that the rock, (which our Saviour promised to build his church upon) is Christ, and not Peter. You hold the contrary. r Augustin. de verb. Dom. Se●m. 1●. Thou art Peter, saith he, and upon this rock which thou hast confessed, upon this rock which thou hast known (saying, Thou art Christ the son of the living God,) will I build my church. I will build thee upon me, not me upon thee. For men intending to build on men, said, I hold of Paul, I of Apollo's, I of Cephas, (that is Peter:) and others who would not be builded upon Peter, but upon the rock, said, I hold of Christ. For the rock was Christ: upon the which foundation Peter himself was builded: sith no man can lay an other foundation beside that which is laid, which is jesus Christ. What say you to the rest, namely, to t In testimon. ●a vet. Testam de Trinitat contr. jud. Gregory Nys●en, to u De Trinitat. lib 4. Cyril, to x In Matth. hom●l. 55. Chrysostom, to y In epist. ad Ephe. cap. 2. Ambrose, to z De Trinitat. lib. 2. & 6. Hilary? They writ that this rock is the confession of Peter. They say not, it is Peter's person. Hart. That exposition of S. Austin, denying Peter to be the rock, was * That is to say, an oversight such as happeneth to men. lapsus humanus (as D. a Staplet. princip. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 3. Stapleton calleth it) caused by the diversity of the Greek and Latin tongue, which either he was ignorant of, or marked not. Howbeit nevertheless it hath a true meaning: though not the full & proper sense of this place. Besides that, himself doth b Retractation. lib. 1. cap. 21. otherwhere expound it as understood of Peter: according to the famous verses of S. Ambrose, in which he calleth Peter the rock of the Church. The rest of the Fathers, who apply the rock to Peter's confession, imply his person in it. For, to say, that the Church is built on the confession and belief of Peter, is all one in deed, and to say, it is built on Peter confessing and believing in Christ. Wherefore in as much as they affirm the former, they prove withal the later by it. Rainoldes. S. Austin, and the Fathers, are beholding to you: whose words (though not answering well to your fancies) are handled so gently. If you were as favourable to Sadeel and Mornay: that, which they writ of Peter, would have a true meaning. Though, if they (with greater zeal unto his doctrine then unto his person, that is, to Christ then to Peter) had given a little less to him then is due: the fault were not so much to be ●aide on their restraint, as on your excess, who say a great deal more of him than you ought. For example, Father c Reverendi patris Roberti Bellarmini praelectiones Romae, ann. Dom. 1577. In praefat. controvers. de summo Pontisice. Robert, the Prince of the jesuits (in his Divinity lectures read publicly at Rome about seven years ago) handling this same point of the foundation of the Church, did ground himself on a sentence of the Prophet Esay to prove it to be Peter, and peter's see, the see of Rome. Whereof to make his proof strong by the words which God doth speak of Christ, d isaiah. 28. ●●. Behold, I lay in Zion a tried precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he affirmed that Esay did therein prophecy not of Christ, but of Peter, a stumbling stone to heretics, & a rock of offence, but to Catholics a tried, a precious, a corner stone. S. e 1. Pet. 2. ver. 6. & 8. Peter the Apostle expoundeth those words not of himself, but of Christ. Father Robert the jesuit saith that they agree not to Christ, but to him. So to advance the Pope's dignity by Peter: he maketh Peter himself, nay, the holy Ghost a liar. Such blasphemous outrages of your chief professors giving more to Peter then standeth with the truth and honour of the Son of God, might provoke the godly spirits of his servants to bend to the contrary: as husbandmen, when they would straighten a young plant that groweth crooked one way, do bow it to the other. But in the discourse of Sadeel and Mornay▪ that the Church is built upon the confession of Peter not his person, there is no straining of aught beyond the truth (for the meaning of it) by your own judgement. For they approve and follow the exposition of S. Austin: and * Expositio Augustini habet ●ententiam veram. Staplet. ●. 6. c. 3. that (you affirm) hath a true meaning. As for the manner of S. Augustine's speech, I grant it seemeth somewhat tough to expound those words of Christ as if he said, Thou art Peter and upon me, not, Thou art Peter and upon thee will I build my Church. But, if the circumstances of his speech be weighed: you shall find, not only the meaning of it, true; but the manner, good. For, as f Numb. 28. ●. it is written that God commanded the jews to offer burnt offerings & sacrifices unto him, yet God saith in g jere. 7.22. jeremy that he spoke not to them, neither commanded them touching burnt offerings and sacrifices, not as though he had not commanded the things, but because he did not command them in that sort and respect as they used them: so, though it be true that Christ's words to Peter do import this sense, Upon thee will I build my Church, yet, because he spoke them in respect of Peter's profession and faith (upon, h Mat. 16.16. Thou art Christ the Son of the living God) not in respect of Peter's person, (which they built on, who said, i 1. Cor. 1.12. I hold of Paul, I of Apollo's, I of Cephas;) S. Austin might expound them well, as he doth, that Christ said to Peter, I will build my church, not upon thee, but upon me. In the which conclusion, the rest of the Fathers, who expound it of Peter's confession, do join with S. Austin. Neither can your shuffling of Peter's confession, with Peter confessing, inveigle their consent. For they do expound and understand it plainly, 1 As Gregory Nyssen doth, and Hilary. some, of him whom Peter confessed, that is, Christ, the Son of the living God: 2 As Ambrose, Chrysostom, & cyril. some, of Peter's faith wherewith he confessed him, as by which the faithful are builded on Christ. And this is their meaning, in saying that (which k Saunder. de ●isib. monar. Eccles. lib. 7. Torren. confes●. August. lib. 1. cap. 9 tit. 2. your men do vainly triumph at) the church is built on Peter: as it appeareth by S. Hilary. Who giving him l Hilar. in Ma●thaeum can. 16. Felix ecclesiae fundamentum. the title of the foundation of the church, expoundeth it some times of his m De Trinit. l●b. 6. Christum Dei ●i●ium non solum n●● cupare, sed etiam credere: haecsides ecclesiae fundamentum 〈◊〉. faith in Christ, some times of n De Trinit. lib. 2. vn● haec est ●aelix side● p●tra, Petri ore confessa, Tu es filius Dei vivi. Christ himself in whom he believed. But admit that Christ had meant Peter's person, when he promised him that he would build his church upon him. What conclude you of it? Hart. This I do conclude, that seeing the church was built upon Peter, and the Apostles themselves were part of the Church: therefore the Apostles were built upon him; and so was he their foundation. By consequent whereof, seeing the foundation is the same to a house which a head is to a body: I do conclude again that Peter was the head of all the Apostles. And so my purpose is proved. Rainoldes. This conclusion hath neither foundation, nor head. For by as good reason you may conclude also, that, seeing the Church was built upon Peter, and Peter himself is a part of the church: therefore was Peter built upon himself, and so was he his own foundation. And because a foundation is the same to a house, which a head is to a body: therefore S. Peter was S. Peter's head. Or, if you see not either the necessity or folly of this consequence, as it is made of Peter: you may frame the like of any other of the Apostles, and you will espy it. For the church of Christ, is the great City, that holy jerusalem, whereof o Reu. 2●. ●●. the wall had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the Lambs twelve Apostles. Then seeing that the church was built upon every one of those twelve, as upon james by name, and Peter was a part of the church: it followeth that Peter was built upon james; and so was james his foundation. And seeing a foundation is the same to a house, which a head is to a body: it followeth again that james was Peter's head. which if yourself deny: you must deny that whereof it doth follow by force of like reason. And so your purpose is not proved. Hart. But we do imagine, that in this building of the church and laying the foundations of it, Christ did lay Peter next upon himself (as the foundation of the rest) and other Apostles upon him. Rainoldes. Indeed you do imagine it. And you consider not that your imagination is crossed by itself, not only by the truth. For, if the twelve Apostles of the Lamb (on whom he built his church) were laid as twelve foundations, one upon an other, & Peter lowest of them: then, as Peter was foundation of eleven, so the next to him must be of ten, the next to him of nine, and likewise each of the next, until the last of none. A thing flat repugnant to your imagination, wherein you make Peter (only) head of the rest, the rest of them equal all amongst themselves. Neither doth it stand with that proportion of the building which the scripture maketh, reserving the prerogative of p 1. Cor. 3.11. the only singular foundation to Christ, and joining the Apostles all in equal honour of q Reu. 21.14. the twelve foundations, as I have showed. For Christ (in this house) is as it were * Mat. 7.24. a rock, a rocky sure and firm ground, on which both the Apostles, and all his church is built: as r 2. Sam. 5.9. the city of David was on the mount Zion. The Apostles are as stones, as twelve most precious stones, which being laid jointly one by an other, all on Christ, are as twelve foundations: and walls (of chosen stones) are raised up on them, * 2. Pet. 3.9. until the whole number of the elect be laid on, and the building finished. One of these foundations might excel an other in preciousness of graces. For, the first foundation, (saith s Reu. 21.19. john) was a jasper; the second, a Sapphire; the third, a Chalcedonie; the fourth, an emerald; and so forth the rest. Or (because I know not the virtues of these stones) t Marc. 13.1. the stones, which the Disciples of Christ did marvel at in the temple of jerusalem for the fairness and greatness of them, were (as u Antiquitat. judaic. lib. 15. cap. 14. josephus writeth) five and twenty cubits long, eight cubits high, and twelve cubits broad. Now as among such stones one might be fairer or better wrought then other: so might one Apostle of Christ excel his fellows in zeal or other gifts, as namely S. Peter. Unless perhaps S. Paul, whom Christ did add to the twelve, excelled both him and them: which I do think rather; for x 1. Cor. 15.10. he laboured more than they all, and (by y Staplet. princ. doc●. l. 6. c. 12. your own confession) converted more unto the faith. But neither Paul nor Peter were foundations of the rest: they were altogether joint-foundations of the church, laid on Christ, the only and singular foundation, to speak of a foundation properly. UUherefore though our Saviour in saying to Peter, Thou art stone, and upon this stone will I build my church, had meant that he would build it upon Peter's person (which serveth best your fancy:) yet doth not that saying infer a supreme-headship. But doubtless (if your fancy can yield unto the truth) he meant not Peter's person, but his faith, and function in preaching of the faith. For the only person that the church is built on, as on a foundation (by the strength and virtue whereof it is upholden) is the son of God, our Saviour jesus Christ: beside whom z 1. Cor. 3.11. no other foundation may be laid: a Eph. 2.21. in whom all the building being coupled together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord. Now because that faith in the son of God doth make the living stones whereof the building is compact and knit up on Christ, a stone of which sort b Mat. 16.16. Peter had showed himself to be * Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. by believing and professing that faith: Christ told him that he was (according to his name, stone) a stone indeed; and having chosen him to preach the same faith, whereby there should be laid more stones on that building, he said, upon this stone will I build my church. UUherin as he showed that whosoever should be members of his church must be members of it by fellowship with Peter's faith: so he showed withal that he would impart that faith to his church by the ministery of Peter. As appeareth farther by that which he added, To thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Hart. Yet even this doth argue still the same prerogative which we give to Peter. For seeing Christ said that he would build his Church upon that stone, or rock, (as I take it) and that, which a church is builded upon, must needs be a foundation; it followeth that Peter was a foundation of the church. Not a principal foundation, for that is Christ only, of whom it is true that c 1. Cor. 3. ●● other foundation no man can lay beside that which is laid, which is Christ jesus: but (as we term it) a ministerial foundation. Which, by the proportion of a foundation to a house and a head to a body, is enough to prove that Christ would make Peter head of the Apostles, I mean a ministerial head. Rainoldes. But here again you fall into your former fault: and that which was common to all the Apostles by the meaning of Christ, you challenge as proper unto Peter only. For, as the confession of Peter touching Christ showed their common faith by the mouth of one: so the answer of Christ directed unto one contained that blessing that should be common to them all. And this is declared by the holy scripture: which to the Ephesians (members of the church) saith, that d Ephe. 2.20. they are built upon the foundation of the Apostles & Prophets. Not of Peter only, but of the Apostles; who lay the same foundation (all) that Peter did, and thereupon are called (all of them) e Reu. 21.14. foundations. And the church relying upon their doctrine, that is the Christian faith, (the only and sure foundation of the church, as the truth hath forced f In the Council of Trent, which (Session. ●) speaking of the articles of the Christian faith, (commonly named the Creed) saith, it is the sure and only foundation, against which the gates of hell shall never prevail. Symbolum fidei, fundamentum ●irmum & unicum, contra quod portae in●e●i nunquam praevalebunt. your own mouths to witness) may be justly said to be built on them, even as well on all of them as on Peter. Wherefore by the proportion (that you grate upon) of a foundation to a house, and a head to a body: as Christ is head only, so is he the only foundation of the Church; as the name of foundation is given to the Apostles, so the twelve foundations doth prove them twelve heads. You must seek therefore some other foundation of Peter's headship over them. For neither the name of stone that Christ gave him, nor the words of building his church upon that stone, prove that he promised him to make him head of all the Apostles. Hart. The second Division. Not in your judgement: but in mine they do. And so doth the other part of the promise also which Christ made unto him; a Mat. 16.19. To thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 1. For by the name of keys is signified the fullness of ecclesiastical power. But to give the fullness of ecclesiastical power, is to make him head. Therefore Christ did promise to make him head of the church. Rainoldes. These keys will not open more in the house, than did the foundation lay in the building. For if you mean by fullness of ecclesiastical power, the lawful power of the Apostleship, than the which no greater was ever given to any ministers of the church: Christ gave it both to Peter and to every Apostle. If you mean such power as the Pope claimeth by b Bu●la Pii Quinti contra Reginam Angliae. fullness of power, a c Pope Sixtus The fourth. Sacrar. ceremoniar. eccles. Rom. lib. 1. Sect. 7. tit. De ense. Potestas summa temporalis (a Christo) Pon●is●ci, eius in terris Vicario collata est: juxta illud, Data est mihi omnis potestas in caelo & in terra. sovereign power not only spiritual but also temporal: Christ gave it neither to Peter, nor to any Apostle. So that in the former sense, all were heads; in the latter, none: and thus your headship proved by neither. But what soever you mean by fullness of power: this is clear and certain that our Saviour promised no more power to Peter, than he meant and performed to all the Apostles. And therefore, what soever he promised to him, he promised in him to them. For, as amongst them, when they were all asked, d Mat. 16. ver. 15. Whom say ye that I am, Peter answered alone, e ver. 16. Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God: so Christ said to him alone, f ver. 19 I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, as though he had alone received power to bind and lose: whereas he made that answer one in stead of them all; and received this power, one together with them all. Wherefore sith no more was promised then given, and equal power was given to all the Apostles: this promise proveth not your headship. You must bring us forth some better evidence: or else your title will be nought. Hart. The evidence is good. For it saith in plain and express terms, that Christ would give the keys to Peter. Then the which what could be more manifestly spoken? Rainoldes. In show, to the simple. Chiefly when they see the matter set forth, as that is at Rome: * In a book of pictures, entitled, Non rocedat volumen legis huius ab ore tuo. Printed at Rome 1577. where Christ is painted out, not as promising Peter that he would give him keys, but as giving them to him at that present; and giving them to him alone, not to all the Apostles; with the words of Christ, paraphrased featly thereto by some poet; Be thou the Prince of pastors: to thee alone is given The power to shut the door of heaven, and eke to set it open, Pastorum princeps esto: tibi ius datur uni, Claudere celestes & reserare fores. Hart. Nay: the very words (as they lie in scripture) are plainer in show for us then for you. which also may be noted in other points of controversy between you and us. As, about the real presence, g Mat. 2●. 26. this is my body. For Christ did not say, this is a sign of my body. And again, h joh. 6. 5●. the bread that I will give, is my flesh. He said not, it is but the sign of my flesh. Rainoldes. Neither do we say, that Christ did so mean in this, of flesh and bread. For we teach, that i joh. 6. ver. 32. the true bread, k ver. 33. the bread of God which came down from heaven and giveth life unto the world, l ver. 35. & 48. is Christ, even m ver. 51. the flesh, the very flesh of Christ, that is, Christ incarnate. The greater wrong n Alan. de sacrament. Eucharist cap. 22. The defender of the Censure, in the answ. ●o M. Charlis pref. pag. 27. they do us, who lay to our charge that we expound it not of the thing, but of a sign: themselves indeed guilty thereof, expounding it of a sacrament of Christ, where it is meant of Christ himself, o joh. 1.14. the word that was made flesh. But what if in the other place, and sundry more, the words of the scripture be plainer in show for you then for us? It is not the show but the sense of the words, that doth import the truth, and must decide controversies. For words were ordained to open the meaning and mind of him that speaketh them. The meaning of the word of God is always true: because God, who speaketh it is p joh. 3.33. true, and q Ti●. 1.2. cannot lie. The show of it is false sometimes and deceitful: as r Rom. 3.4. men are, whose judgement this show dependeth of; and that may seem to them to be meant by it, which is not meant by God. Wherefore it is not the show, but the sense; the substance, not the semblance of the words of scriptures; that you must prove doth make for you (in points of controversy) if you will prove aught. Hart. Why? do you grant then, that the words of scripture make more for us, in show, though not in substance, than they do for you. It were not good for you that this should be known. Rainoldes. What? Not that the words of scripture, sometimes, make more for you then us, in show, though not in substance? Yes truly M. Hart: and for the anabaptists too, that s Act. 4.32. Christians had all things common. And for t As his words are set down in the ●anon law. c. dilectissimis. 12. ●. 1. Pope Clemens too, that wives must be common: because * in omnibus sunt sine dubio & coniuges. in all things wives are implied also. And I am so far from being afraid that this should be known: that, even in the very example which you mention (as making for you most,) I grant that the words of Christ, this is my body, are plainer in show, though not for your monster of transubstantiation, yet for your real presence, then for our sacramental. But so, that I grant the same (in like manner) of other sacramental and mystical speeches: wherein the scriptures give the name of the thing to that which it betokeneth, as of u Matt. 26.17. Exo. 12. vers. 11. & 27. the passover, to the lamb, and of x 1. Cor. 10.4. and the rock was Christ. the rock to Christ. For (I hope) you will not conclude of this show, that really Christ was a rock; or a lamb, the passover really. Hart. These speeches are not like to that of Christ's body in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. For, it is manifest, that when the lamb was called the passover, and Christ the rock: it was meant, not really, but figuratively, that the rock signified Christ; the lamb, the passover. But it is not manifest in that of Christ's body. Rainoldes. Wither it be manifest, or no; is not the question: but whither the speeches be like in show of words, the rock was Christ, this is my body. Or, to come nearer to your own example and proof of that point: Christ saith of himself that y joh. 6. ver. 3●. he is true bread: and, z vers. 55. my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. True and, indeed: these terms are more pregnant for a real presence, then that of Christ's body. Yet if you say that Christ is bread, really; and his flesh, meat; and his blood, drink: you may as well say, that he is really a joh. 15. ver. 1. a vine; and his disciples b vers. 5. branches really, and other such real either blasphemies or follies. Hart. Nay, we do confess that many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratively: but neither all, nor this concerning the Sacrament, nor any thing else, whereof the literal and proper sense hath not somewhat contrary to God, to religion, and to Christian life. As c Alan. de sacrament. Eucharist. cap. 22. D. Allen saith that S. d De Genes. ad lit. lib. 8. cap. 2. De doctr. Christ. lib. 3. cap. 15. Austin teacheth. Out of e cap. 10. whom he citeth withal a worthy sentence, touching such, as you are: If the mind be prevented with an opinion of some error, whatsoever the scripture doth affirm otherwise, men think it to be spoken figuratively. Rainoldes. That sentence is good, as S. Austin uttereth it. But D. Allen useth it ill, against us. The worse, because S. Austin showeth strait upon it, f cap. 16. in the same book, of the same point, that, to eat the flesh of Christ, and drink his blood, was spoken not properly (for so it were a wicked deed,) but figuratively: flat against that error of the real presence, which he is pretended to prove by D. Allen. But howsoever D. Allen deal in that: the point (which you grant with him) sufficeth me for proof of that I said. For if many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratively: it followeth that the sense of scripture is against the show of words in sundry places, and therefore that the show of words sundry times is against the truth. Which sith you cannot see in this Sacrament, because of your prejudice of the real presence: I will bring an example of the sacrament of baptism, wherein you must needs see it. There were g Seleacus et Herm●a, G●la●● Philastr. 〈◊〉. haeres. some of old, who, as we sprinkle children with water in baptizing of them, so they used to print and stamp certain marks upon them with fire. For the which usage they alleged the scripture, (I mean, the words thereof) that, touching john Baptist: h Luc. 3.16. who saying of himself, I baptise you with water, addeth of our Saviour, He will baptise you with the holy Ghost and fire. Now, I put the matter to your own judgement, whether they did better, who baptised with fire: or we, who without it. Hart. Who doubteth, but we? For they were deceived who took the name of fire properly in that place: where it is used figuratively, to signify the graces of the holy Ghost, who lighteneth and purgeth the hearts of the faithful. They, who did baptise in that sort, were heretics: as i Alphons. a Castro advers. haeres. lib. 3. Alphonsus showeth. Rainoldes. Yet the show of words doth make more for than: john baptised with water, Christ baptizeth with fire. Neither have you here so much as that evasion, (which yet if you had, were nothing to the purpose) that it is manifest to be meant, not properly, but figuratively. For there have been k Paul. Venet. de regionib. orientalib. li. 3. cap. 43. Matth. Paris in Henrico tert. Petr. Bizar. in histor. rer. Per sicar. lib. 10. sundry churches and nations these many hundred years, that used it, and do still: induced all thereto by the show of words, as manifest to be meant not figuratively, but properly, in their judgement. And your real presence hath not gone so far in the one Sacrament with this is my body: as their fiery marks have gone in the other with the holy Ghost and fire. Wherefore (to return to the point in question) although it may seem by the show of words that our Saviour promised the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter only: yet, sith he meant them to all the Apostles (as I have declared) your claim will be a bare show, if all your proof be show of words. And therefore, as I said, so I say again, that you must bring us forth some better evidence: or else your title will be nought. Hart. And I tell you again, that the evidence is good: and hath not only show of words, but sense too, if it be rightly taken. But we retain not you to be our lawyer to expound it. Rainoldes. I am not in haste to be retained of you. But what mislike you in my expounding of it? Hart. That, which shall keep me from yielding thereunto. For your exposition is a private exposition, which we allow not of. We allow only of the church's exposition. Rainoldes. Then I perceive the church shall be your lawyer. And what is (I pray you) the church's exposition. Hart. * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 7. c. 13. & l. 11. ca 5. That which all the Fathers make with one consent. Rainoldes. Which all the Fathers make? We had need to have bodies like the bodies of Oaks, and memories as strong as steel, to endure to read, and be sure to remember of every exposition, so much, as may ascertain us, that all the Fathers make it. Hath any man living read them all? Nay, have all the men living read them? Nay, can they show them? Can they get them? I had almost said, can they name them? Hart. Womeane of the Fathers which are extant commonly, and may be had and read. If many of them make it, and the rest either gainsay it not, or say nought of it: we count it to be made of all with one consent. Rainoldes. That count is evil cast. For, as in the writings of Fathers which we have, some one expoundeth places of Scripture oftentimes otherwise then all the rest, t Sixt. Senen. biblioth. sanct. li. 5. & 6. Aloys. Lipom. caten. in Genes. & Exod. (a thing notorious and confessed:) so, it is likely that in those which we have not some places were otherwise expounded them they be in those which we have. Yet I will not deny but you had reason so to count. For else your lawyer had been dumb, and could not have spoken a word for his client. But if this be your rule of the church's exposition: then I could have made mine exposition, the churches, with a wet finger, if I would have stuffed it with the names of Fathers. For my words of Peter, that he alone made answer for all the Apostles, & received the keys together with them all, are the words of u In johan. tractat. 118. S. Austin, though I did not name him. And x In Psal. 38. S. Ambrose saith of that promise of Christ (I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the rest which followeth) that what is said to Peter, is said to the Apostles. And y Adverse. jovinian. lib. 1. jerom saith, that the foundation and firmness of the church lay on all the Apostles equally, and they did all receive the keys. And z In Matth. tractat. 1. Origen saith, that Christ's promise of building his church, of giving the keys, of binding and losing, made as to Peter only, was common unto all. And a De Trinitat. lib. 6. Hilary saith in like sort, that through the worthiness of their faith they obtained the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the power of binding and losing in heaven and earth. Neither do I doubt but other of the Fathers have said as much as these in the expounding of these words. But have they or not: this is no path for us to walk in, if we seek the right way. For neither might we hope for an end of our travels because of sundry expositions, one contrary to an other: and we should faint for thirst in time of heat and drought, looking for water in the wilderness, as * job. 6.19. the travelers of Tema: and (that is worst of all) sometimes we should leave the pure water of truth, and swill up puddle in steed of it. For, although the Fathers were men endued of God with excellent gifts, and brought no small light to understanding of the scriptures: yet learned men in our days may give a right sense of sundry places thereof which the Fathers saw not, yea against the which perhaps they consent. Hart. The b 〈◊〉. 4. Council of Trent condemneth them that say so. Rainoldes. As learned men, as any were at that Council, say it. And they do it too. Hart. Who? Calvin and Beza? Rainoldes. Truly, I do judge no less of their learning. And, if I be of any judgement, I judge not partially in it. But think of them as you list. S. c Retractation. lib. 2. cap. 18. Austin, having followed S. Cyprian in expounding a certain place of Scripture, afterward did find in Tyconius the Donatist an other exposition: which thinking to be truer, he preferred it before Cyprians. Whereby you may see, that, although you thought as ill of Calvin and Beza, as did S. Austin of the Donatists, yet, if you had S. Augustine's mind, you would rather follow the sense which they give sometimes of the scriptures, then that which is given by ancient godly Fathers. Nevertheless, my mind was not of them, when I mentioned learned men. For, to what purpose? Sith I am not ignorant how small account you make of them. My mind was of your own men, who say so, and do so. Hart. What? Against the Council of Trent? UUho be they? Rainoldes. First, the flower of your Cardinals, the d In praefat. comment. in libros Mosis. Cardinal Caietan, beginning to expound the scriptures, doth set it down for a principle, that God hath not tied the exposition of the scriptures unto the senses of the Fathers. UUherefore if he fall upon a new sense agreeable to the text, * Quamuis a torrent Doctorum sacrorum sit alienus. though it go against the stream of the Fathers: he doth advise the reader not to mislike of it. Hart. But the flower of our Bishops, Bishop e Locor. Theologico. li. 7. ca 3. Melchior Canus misliketh the Cardinal for that his rash sentence: and reproveth it as an error, yea as the common sentence of heretics and schismatics. Rainoldes. But the flower of your Doctors, d Andrad. defence. fid. Trid. lib. 2. D. Payva Andradius, rebuketh this your Bishop's reproof, as more rash: yea defendeth Caietan against it as a slander. He teacheth first, that the Fathers do in many places not expound the Scriptures according to the literal sense, (the only which hath weight to prove points of faith,) but allegorically and morally. We may leave their allegories and expound them literally. He teacheth next, that when they seek the literal senses of the scriptures, they do not always find them, but give divers senses one unlike an other. We may forsake their senses all, and bring a new unlike to theirs. Moreover, (to make the thing evident by examples) himself expoundeth sundry places otherwise then the Fathers have: declaring that he doth it upon sufficient ground. Again, he proveth by the sayings of the chief of the Fathers, that they spoke not oracles when they expounded the Scriptures, but might therein be deceived. He showeth furthermore, that the oversights of the translation which they followed, must cause them needs to miss sometimes the right meaning of the holy Ghost. Finally, he addeth that experience forceth us to confess (unless we will be unthankful to most excellent wits) that very many things in Moses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly (through the diligence of learned men) then ever they were before. Whereupon he concludeth that the holy Ghost, the only and faithful interpreter of the Scriptures, would have many things to be known to us, which our ancestors knew not: and hath wrought by means, (unknown to us, known to him) that the Fathers noted good and godly mysteries out of very many places of the Scriptures, whereof the right and natural sense hath been found out by the posterity. This is, in few words, the judgement of Andradius, which he prosecuteth more at large; in the defence of Cardinal Caietan against quarrelers; who did cavil at him because he wrote that it is lawful to go against the stream of the ancient Fathers in expounding of the Scriptures. Hart. I care not for the judgement of Andradius, or Caietan, or any other private man, though you could bring a hundred of them. I do not build my faith on them. Rainoldes. Although you care not for their judgement, yet you should care for their reasons. Of which the light is so great: that, unless a man have altogether lost his eyes, he can not choose but see the truth and brightness of them. Neither may you set so little by their judgement: chief the judgement of Andradius. If you do: it may be the price of his contempt will help to purchase your confusion. For, the Council of Trent, n Campian. rat. 4. Quae medulla, Theologorum. the fairest flower of your garland, & chiefest pillar of your faith, is but the consent of a few such, as Andradius was, or rather none such perhaps. Let 1 Oso. epist. praefixa Andrad. Defence. fid. Trident. the Italians witness it, who wondered at his gifts. Theylove not themselves so ill, as to wonder at common things in strangers. A great token of it, that the faith of Trent most justly charged by Kemnicius, (who tried the Spirit of the Council, and proved it the Spirit of error) found no man to defend it, but Andradius, to speak of. For 2 I●doc. Rauestey● Tilet. defence. decret. conc. Trident. Tiletan is a trifler, not worthy to be named the same day that he is. But let the Authors, with their reasons, be proofs of no value: and grant, that if the Fathers all consent in one, their exposition must be stood too. What, if the Father's dissent in expounding a place of the Scripture, as oftentimes they do? Which of their expositions must we follow then? Hart. If one expound a thing otherwise then all the rest, the rest must be followed, and he must be refused. As by D. Stapletons' example in S. Austin I showed d Chapt. 2. Diui●. 1. erewhile. Rainoldes. S. Austin was against you then. But if he make for you, though he be alone, you will leave all and follow him: whereof you give notable proof in the division of the ten commandments. For, the second commandment against the worship of Images, Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them, because the words are sharp, and rip the hart strings of your church, whose spiritual hooredomes do pass the hoordomes of jezabel, and all your temples are stews of them: therefore you omit it in f Offic. B. Mar. virg. reform. a Pio Q●i●t. praierbookes and g The catechism of Vau● in English, and Ledesima in Italian. catechisms; & to salve the matter, lest thereby we should have no more than nine commandments, you cut the tenth into two. Now for this, h Quaest 71. in Exodum. S. Austin is all in all with you: the rest of the Fathers go for nought. Yet the rest expound it literally as it were: S. Austin fancied a mystery, that the number of three commandments touching God might betoken the Trinity. Thus under the colour of one Father's judgement against all the rest, you conceal the second commandment from the people, lest your vile idolatry, or i Sanders treatise of Images. chap. 8. imagedoulie as you smooth it, should grow (by the hearing thereof) into mislike. Indeed, whatsoever you say of the Fathers, to blear the people's eyes: you use them as merchants are wont to use their counters. Sometime they stand with you for pence, sometime for pounds, even as they be next and readiest at hand to make up your accounts. Hart. Why? Think you that none, but S. Austin only, hath so divided the commandments? Rainoldes. I find none alleged of your k Magist. sentent. li. 3. Dist. 37. Thom. Aquin. in prima secundae q. 100 a●tic. 4. Schoolmen, but him. Hart. You may. For Clemens Alexandrinus is alleged also by Father Robert in his l In quaest. 100 conclus. 4. Dictates upon S. Thomas. Rainoldes. Clemens is smally bound to Father Robert for alleging of him. Neither will he get credit: nor you advantage by it. For m Strom. lib. 6. Clemens, though he number no more than three commandments touching our duty towards God: yet neither doth he number any more than six touching our duty towards man; and of the tenth he maketh but one, which you make two. So that, through omitting the second commandment, as part annexed to the first: Clemens found no more commandments than nine, whereas n Exod. 34.28. the scriptures number ten. UUherefore, either Clemens maketh nothing for you: or at least no more for you then us. Hart. Yes. For the later place of six commandments, wherein Clemens maketh for you, is corrupted. The former is sound, wherein he maketh for us. Rainoldes. Iust. For o Dictat. in s●m. Tho. Aquin. q. 100 concl. 4. Father Robert saith so. And he belike is * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Diogen. Laert. in Pythag. Pythagoras. All the proof, is, He said it. Else, what reason have you, why the later place (if Clemens be corrupted) should be thought rather to be corrupted then the former? This was wont to be, with young Logicians in Oxford a scholars' trick at parvis: to say that the place in Aristotle is corrupted, when they could not unloose a knot. In deed your latin, either translator, or printer, p Putting doctrina for decima. hath corrupted Clemens in the chief place that he doth make for us against you. Which I say, not (as father Robert doth) upon my word without proof: but the very drift and course of Clemens treatise, and q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the greek copy agreeing fully with it, convinceth it to be so. As for the repugnancy that is between these points in the true copy of Clemens: it seemeth not to have grown of either place corrupted, but of an oversight & slip of memory in Clemens, by reason of a digression which he fell into upon occasion of the precept to sanctify the Sabbath day. And this is the likelier, because there is some body touched by r In Exod. homil. 8. Origen for so dividing the commandments: and we find not any that hath divided them so before Clemens; who was Origens' master. Which also father Robert himself hath observed. Wherefore you may not look for any help at the hands of Clemens: S. Austin you must stand alone with, and follow one against all. Hart. No doubt there be more of that mind than he: although I know not who they be. For s In confess. Augustin. lib. 2. ca 6. tit. 5. Torrensis, a learned jesuit, saith that this division of the ten commandments, three of them to touch our duty towards God, and seven towards man, is a point of doctrine very common and familiar both unto S. Austin, and to * Antiquitati omni. all antiquity. UUhereby you may see that S. Austin is not alone of that judgement. Rainoldes. Nay: I see not that. But I see an other thing, which it were reason that you should see also. Hart. What is that? Rainoldes. I see that the jesuit maketh no conscience of lying, so that it be for advantage: as t Dori● the bawd in Terence. Non pudet vanitatis● Minimé, dum ob rem. a lewd person professeth in the poet. For whereas the commandments, which touch our duty towards God, are noted to be four, (and that of Images, one of them) by the chiefest authors and witnesses of antiquity; first by the hebrews, (as u Libr. de Decalog. & duob. opuse. de legib. specialib. Philo and x Antiquit. I●d. lib. 3. cap. 4. josephus show) who have still continued of the same minds, y Aben Ezra in Exod. 20. (as it may seem) in their posterity; next, by the Grecians, z In versib. de Decalogo. Gregory Nazianzen, a In Exo. hom. 8. Origen, b In synopsi sacrae scripturae. Athanasius, c In Matthae. opere imperf. hom. 49. Chrysostom, or whosoever was autour of the work unperfit upon Matthew; thirdly, by the Latins, d In epist. ad Ephes. cap. 6. S. Ambrose, e In epist. ad Ephes. cap. 6. S. jerom, and one more ancient than they both, f August. question. vet. & nou. Test. c. 7. the author of the questions of the old and new Testament: nevertheless this jesuit, as though his face were hardened, like the face of an harlot, blu●heth not to say, that antiquity, that all antiquity doth affirm the contrary. Hart. You are persuaded too hardly of Torrensis. I can not think that he would pretend all antiquity, unless he had known, if not all, yet the most to be of that mind. Rainoldes. You have conceived too lightly of Torrensis, I can not think that he would allege not one witness out of all antiquity, if he had known any of that mind in deed. Chiefly seeing that he is so ambitious in citing Fathers when he hath them, that, to prove the church was builded upon Peter, g Confess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 9 tit. 2. he quoteth no less than eight and forty places out of Doctors and Counsels, to let go other writers which (he saith) he passeth over. But, grant there is perhaps some one, or two, or three, or four (whom your jesuits have not found yet) that are of S. Augustine's mind in that point. If fewer of the Fathers expound a place of scripture contrary to more of them: which shall we follow them? the lesser or the greater number? Hart. * Hieron. Torren. con●ess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 11· tit. 1. The greater number. For a few may be deceived more easily than many. Rainoldes. Then must you bid your Schoolmen now adieu, and agree with us in the division of the commandments; though we give you Clemens (whom father Robert citeth) and three or four voices more. Howbeit I can not urge you to do it, unless that you do it upon surer ground: because this ground is slabbie, and the rule unsure for men to walk on. For, that the greater number of the Fathers expoundeth Scriptures worse sometimes than the lesser: it appeareth by the controversy between h Epist. 19 Austin and i Epist. 11. i●ter epistolas August. jerom, concerning the reproof of Peter: whether Paul rebuked him in earnest, as blameworthy; or dissembled with him, and made 1 Mendacium officiosum. August. a dutiful lie, which jerom termed 2 Hones●am. dispens●tionem. ●ie●on. an honest policy. For, k Con●ess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 1. t●t. 1. yourselves grant, that Austin (who thought that Paul reproved him in earnest) did judge therein more sound & truly then jerom did, who thought that he dissembled. Yet jerom alleged more Fathers on his side▪ and made so great account of them, that l Epist. 11. inter epist. August. he desired Austin to suffer him to err with such men if he thought him to err. Whereupon m Epist. 19 S. Austin replied, that peradventure he might find as many Fathers on his side, if he had read much. But I, saith he, have Paul the Apostle himself in stead of these all, and above these all. To him do I fly, to him I appeal from all the Doctors (his interpreters) who are of other minds. Of him do I ask, whereas he writeth to the Galatians, that he saw Peter not going with a right foot to the truth of the Gospel, and that he withstood him to his face for it, because by that dissembling he constrained the Gentiles to do like the jews: whether he wrote true, or did lie perhaps * Nescio qua dispensativa Falsitate. with I know not what politic falsehood. And I do hear him (a little before) making a very religious protestation, in the beginning of the same discourse, The things which I writ unto you, behold, I witness before God, I lie not. Let them, who are of other minds, pardon me. I believe rather so great an Apostle, swearing in his own and for his own words, than any man be he never so learned, talking of the words of an other. A wise and free judgement, worthy of S. Austin. Whereby you may perceive that your rule of following the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures, is but a leaden rule, not fit which should be used to square out stones by, for building of the Lords temple. Hart. This of Austin showeth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers, and refuse their judgement. But that (as * Confess. Augustin. lib. 1. cap. 11. tit. 1. Torrensis hath observed well) must be with two cautions. One, that the thing wherein we vary from them be a known truth. The other, that we do it with reverence and modesty. Rainoldes. With reverence and modesty? God forbidden else. As n job. 33.1. Elihu reproved job: as o Gal. 2.14. Paul reproved Peter. But for the other caution: how shall we know a thing to be a known truth? Hart. One-way to know it, and that a good way, * Staplet. princip. doct lib. 7. cap. 17. is the common testimony of the faithful people, if they with one consent believe it to be true. Rainoldes. This bringeth us small help to the expounding of scriptures. For things may be true: and yet a place of scripture not applied truly and rightly to prove them. As it is plain in places, p Deut. 6.4. Augustin S●euchus Chisam. epis cop. apud Sixtum Senensem biblioth. sanct. lib. 5. annot. 130. that have been applied by Christians against the jews. But let it be a good way. What, if the faithful people do dissent? As, in the question which we have in hand about the Pope's supremacy, the people of the east church dissented from the west, many hundred years together. What shall we do then? Hart. Then an other way (a better way to find it) * Staplet. princip. doctr. lib. 7. cap. 8. is the common testimony of the faithful Pastors, if they do decree it in a general council. As for the Pope's supremacy they did in the * Under Pope Innocent the third, capit. 5. Council of Lateran. Rainoldes. The Bishops of the east church q Tit. general. octavae Synod. Florent. & epist. jeremiae Constantinopolit. patriarchae. say that the Council of Lateran was not general: which the Pope himself doth acknowledge also, r In c. Item Adrianus. Dist. 16. c. Sancta octo. Contius. as it is noted on your law. But here the former difficulties meet us again, and breed the same perplexity. For there are but few places of Scripture which general Counsels have expounded: neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest. Again, although s Staplet. princip. doctrine. li. 8. cap. 14. & 15. lib. 11. cap. 6. you say that general Counsels can not err in their conclusions: yet you say they may err in applying of Scriptures to prove their conclusions. Lastly, general Counsels may dissent too: t Concil. Eph. 2. & Concil. Chalcedon. as heretofore they have in a weighty point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of, as our conference will show: you see that you have not yet resolved me. One question I must ask you more. In this case, when Counsels say nothing of Scriptures; or misapply them, in proofs; or descent, in conclusions: what are we to do? Hart. If Counsels descent, we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head. And (to answer all your questions in a word) whether with the Counsels or without the Counsels, that which the Head determineth, is a known truth: that which the Head condemneth is a known error. Rainoldes. * Staplet. princip. doctrine. li. 7. cap. 10. & li. 10. cap. 11. You mean by the Head, not our Saviour Christ, but the Pope, I trow. Hart. I: the visible head. Rainoldes. Do you not see then by your own answers, that whatsoever show you make of Fathers and Counsels: the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke? So that, (to bring it to the point in controversy) whereas our question is, whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church: you say, He is so. When we sift the matter, and seek the reasons, why: this is the sum of all, Because himself saith so. I thought, that the church should have been your lawyer to expound your evidences: but now I perceive that you meant the Pope. He is the church's husband (belike) and in matters of law dealeth for her. I cannot blame you, though you be content to make him your judge too. For if he give sentence, in this cause, against you: I will never trust him. Hart. You do gather more of mine answers, than I meant. I pray make your own collections, and not mine. Rainoldes. I do gather nothing, but that which you have scattered. For, you began to try this point touching the Pope by the words of Scripture. The words (we agree) decide by the sense: the sense must be tried (you say) by the Fathers: the Fathers by the truth: the truth by the people: the people by the Counsels: the Counsels by the Pope. If one of us should make but a semblance of such an answer: you would sport yourselves with it, and call it a u Campian. Rat. 9 Circulation, and 1 Eccum, quas rotas, quos gyros fabricat▪ cry against our impudence, & 2 O Circulos. Campian. Rat. 4. whoop at it like stage players. But you may dance such rounds, and yet persuade men that you go right forward with great sobriety and gravity. Hart. Howsoever you dally with your circulations, & rounds, as you call them: I say no more, but this, that if a truth cannot be known otherwise, than the last mean to resolve us of it, is the Pope's authority. But there needed not so much ado hereof, if I prove that Christ did give that supremacy (whereof we talked) to S. Peter. Rainoldes. You can never prove that Christ did give it him, but by * Col. 3.16. the word of Christ, which is the holy scripture. And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense, not in the show of words. UUherefore, it was needful, sith we seek herein to find out Christ's will, that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be known. Which, seeing you would have me to fetch from the Pope, and I have no lust to go unto Rome, nor think it lodgeth in 1 The Palace of the Pope. the Vatican, so that by this way no agreement can be made, or end of controversy hoped for: I will take a shorter and a surer way, confessed by us both to be a good way, whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found, and so the will of Christ be known. Hart. What way may that be? Rainoldes. To learn of Christ himself the meaning of his word, and let his spirit teach it: that is, to expound the scripture by the scripture. A golden rule, to know, and try the truth from error: prescribed by the Lord, and practised by his servants for the building of his church from age to age through all posterity. For, x 2. Pet. 1. ver. 19 the holy Ghost, exhorting the jews, to compare the darker light of the Prophets with the cléerer of the Apostles, that the day-brigtnesse of the Son of righteousness may shine in their hearts: saith, that y ver. 20. no prophecy of Scripture is of a man's own interpretation: because, in the prophecy (that is, the scripture of the Prophets) they spoke as they were moved by the holy Ghost, not as the will of man did fancy. Which reason sith it implieth, as the Prophets, so the Apostles: and it is true in them all, the holy men of God, spoke as they were moved by the holy Ghost: it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God, because z 2. Tim. 3.16. it is inspired of God: as * L. Si. Cod. De legib. et constitutionib. Principum. nature's light hath taught that he who made the law, should interpret the law. This rule commended to us by the prescript of God, and as it were sanctified by a Nehem. 8.8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Levites practice in the old Testament, and b In the epistles to the Romans, Galatians, hebrews. the Apostles in the new: the godly ancient Pastors and Doctors of the church have followed, in their preaching, their writing, their deciding of controversies in Counsels. UUherefore, if you desire in deed the church's exposition, and would so feign find it: you must go this way, this is the church's way: that is the church's sense to which this way doth bring you. For, S. Austin, * Confession. Augustinian. praefat. ad lecto. whose doctrine yourself do acknowledge to be grounded on the laws, the manners, the judgements of all the catholic church: whom you call a witness of the sincere truth and catholic religion, such a witness as no exception can be made against: who assureth you (as you say) not only of his own, but also of the common, the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolic church: this S. Austin hath written four books of Christian doctrine, wherein he purposely entreateth, how men should understand the Scripture and expound it. The sum of all his treatise doth aim at this mark, which I have pointed too: that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture, a August. de doctrine. Christ. li. 1. cap. 2. by the consideration of things and words in it: that b cap. 35. the end whereto, c cap. 37. the matter whereof, it is all written, be marked in general, d cap. 36. & 40. and all be understood according to that end and matter: that e Lib. 2. cap. 8. all be read over & over, & f cap. 9 those things chief noted which are set down plainly, both precepts of life, and rules of belief, because that all things, which concern belief and life, are plainly written in it: that obscure & dark speeches be lightened and opened by the plain and manifest: that to remove the doubt of uncertain sentences the clear and certain be followed: that g cap 11. recourse be had unto the Greek and Hebrew copies, to clear out of the fountains, if the translation be muddy: that h Lib 3. cap. 2. & 3. doubtful places be expounded by the rule of faith, which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture: that all the circumstances of the text be weighed, what goeth before, what cometh after; i cap. 5. the manner how, k cap. 10. the cause why, l cap. 17. the men to whom, m cap. 18. the time when, every thing is said: to be short, that n cap. 27. still we seek to know the will and meaning of the Author by whom the holy Ghost hath spoken; if we find it not, yet give such a sense as agreeth with the right faith, approved by some other place of scripture: o cap. 28. if a sense be given, the uncertainty whereof cannot be discussed by certain and sure testimonies of scripture, it might be proved by reason; but this custom is dangerous; the safer way far, is, to walk by the scripture, the which (being shadowed with dark and borrowed words) when we mind to search, let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controversy, or, if it have doubt, let it be determined by the same scripture, through witnesses to be found & used thence wheresoever: that so (to conclude) p Lib. 4. cap. 3. all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures, the which are called Canonical, as being the Canon, that is to say the rule of godliness and faith. Thus you see the way, the way of wisdom and knowledge, which Christ hath prescribed, the church hath received, S. Austin hath declared both by his precepts and his practice, both in this treatise and in q De Genes. ad litter. l. 1. c. 21. Enchir. ad Laurent ca 68 De civit. Dei li. 11. cap. 33. & lib. 15. cap. 7. De unit. eccles. ca 16. Epist. 48. ad Vincent. De verb. Dom. serm. 2. Retract. li. 2. cap. 54. etc. In comment. Sermon. ●●actat. & epist. others, agreeably to the judgement of the ancient Fathers. Which way, sith it is liked both by us and you, though not so much followed of you as of us: I wish that the worthiness thereof might persuade you to practise it yourself, but it must enforce you at least to allow it. Hart. I grant, it neither can, nor aught to be denied, that every one of those things, and specially, if they be joined all together, do help very much to understand the scriptures rightly. But * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 11. ca ●. yet they are not so sure and certain means as some other are, which we prefer before them. Neither do they help always; nay, sometimes they do hurt rather, and deceive greatly such as expound the Scripture after them. This is not only said, but also proved at large out of the Doctors and Fathers, by that worthy man of great wit and judgement, our countryman M. Stapleton Doctor of Divinity, the kings Professor of controversies in the university of Douai. Of whose most wholesome work, entitled, A methodical demonstration of doctrinal principles of the faith: one book is wholly spent to show the means, way and order, how to make authentical interpretation of the Scriptures. In the which he layeth this for a ground, that r Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 11. c. 1. the Scripture cannot be rightly understood but by the rule of faith. Whereupon s cap. 2. he condemneth the Protestants opinion, that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures. Which error of yours to overthrow the more fully: he delivereth four means of expounding the Scriptures; t cap. 3. the first, very certain and sure, the rule of faith; u cap. 4. the next, no less certain, the practice of the church; x cap. 5. the third, at least probable, the consent of the Fathers; y cap. 6. the last, most infallible, the counsels interpretation. And z cap. ●. these means, he saith, are the only certain sure infallible means, of understanding and expounding the Scripture aright. As for other means, which learned men do use, such as you observed out of S. Austin: he granteth they are profitable, but deceitful many ways, if each of them be severally taken by itself. Which he proveth in particular by the chiefest of them: first, the weighing of circumstances, what goeth before, what cometh after; next, the words and kind of speeches used in the Scriptures; thirdly, a cap. 10. the conference of places together, one to be lightened by an other; four, b cap. 12. recourse to the fountains of the Greek and the Hebrew text. Wherefore, though I acknowledge your way to be a good way, and such as I am well content to walk in, when these our ways shall lead me to it: notwithstanding, sith it is c cap. 9 common to us with all Heretics, yea with jews and paynim; (who do all, confer places, observe the kind of speeches, look on the Greek and Hebrew fountains, mark what goeth before, what cometh after, and such like things; and yet they are very far from the true understanding of the scriptures;) I will myself practise it when I shall see good: but there is no reason of yours that can enforce me to allow it simply. Rainoldes. The treatise of your Doctor against the Protestants opinion, is like the army of Antiochus prepared against the Romans: very great and huge of men of many nations, but white liuered soldiers: neither so strong with armour, as glistering with gold and silver. Antiochus himself was amazed at it, and thought it unvincible: so did the simple fools of his country too. But d livi. lib. 37. the Romans contemned it: and e Plutarch. in compar. Scipio. & Annib. Annibal jested at it. The name of Protestants, (which f Staplet. princip. doctr. lib. 7. cap. 15. & li. 11. cap. 10. he useth tauntingly as all one with Heretics) we are no more ashamed of, than were the g 2. Chron. 24.19. Prophets and h Act. 2.40. & 8.25. & 10.42. Apostles: whom the Spirit of God hath honoured with that title because they did make a protestation of their faith, i Sleidan. de statu relig. & reip. lib. 6. upon the like occasion, as did the faithful in Germany when they were noted by that name. The Protestants opinion, I have already showed to be the opinion of the ancient Protestants, the Fathers, the Apostles, the holy Ghost who spoke by them. If you call it an error: we are content to err with them. If he think it an heresy: we are no better than Paul, k Act. 24.14. & 26.22. who in such heresy served God. The ground which l Stapl. princip. doctr. li. 11. ca 1. & 2. he layeth for the disproof of it: is such, that it seemeth, his wits and he had made a fray when he laid it. He saith, that the scripture ought to be expounded by the rule of faith, and therefore not by scripture only. Which is (in effect) as if a man should say: the church must be taught by living creatures endued with reason, and therefore not by men only. For as a living creature endued with reason, and a man, is all one, which every child knoweth by the principles of logic: so the rule of faith, and scripture is all one, doth not your Doctor know it? It is a principle of divinity, delivered by S. Austin, whom m cap. 3. he pretendeth (chief, in this point) to follow. Hart. And doth he not follow him? Doth he not allege S. Augustine's own words, n August. de doctr. Christ. li. 3. cap. 2. In a doubtful place of scripture let a man seek the rule of faith, which rule he hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures, and of the authority of the church: to prove that the rule of faith must be fetched out of the authority of the church also, not out of scriptures only? Rainoldes. Yes: he doth allege S. Augustine's words in deed: but as o Mat. 26.61. the false witnesses alleged Christ's words of destroying the temple, and building it in three days: the words, against the meaning. Which trick p In fraudem legis facit, qui●●●. vis verbis legisententiam en●● circumuenit. L. Contra. Dig. de legibus Senatusque consultis. the law noteth as an abusing of the law: yet is it common with your Doctor. For as Christ, when he spoke of raising the temple, by the temple q joh. 2.19. meant his body, the witnesses did wrest it to the temple of jerusalem: so, the authority of the church is mentioned by S. Austin, as teaching scriptures only, your Doctor allegeth it, as teaching somewhat beside the scriptures. Hart. This is strange, that S. Austin, by, the authority of the church, meant no more than by the plainer places of the scriptures. For so much you seem to say in effect. Rainoldes. Be it strange: yet is it true. For himself declareth that to be his meaning, not only by the rest of his whole treatise, wherein he doth establish the scriptures alone for the rule of faith, to show the sense of doubtfuller places by the plainer: but also by the end of this your own sentence, which Stapleton (in alleging it) either negligently passed, or craftily suppressed: unless the fault perhaps be in some other, with whose eyes he read it. For r Aug. de doctr. Christian. lib. 3. cap. 2. after these words, let him seek the rule of faith, which rule he hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures, and of the authority of the church: it followeth in S. Austin, Of which rule we have sufficiently entreated in the first book, when we spoke of things. Now, in that discourse (to which he referreth us) he spoke not of any thing as taught by the church, but what is in the scripture. Wherefore, in these words, by the authority of the church, he meant not any thing beside the scripture. If he did: show it. If he did not: acknowledge it. Hart. He did. For, in the first book where he spoke of things, he showed that s cap. ●●. the doctrine of the Trinity is comprised in that rule of faith. Which yet is not expressly set down in the scriptures. Rainoldes. Expressly? What mean you by this word expressly? Hart. I mean, that it is not expressed in the scriptures. Rainoldes. What? Not the doctrine of the blessed Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the holy Ghost? Hart. Not all that our faith doth hold of the Trinity. Rainoldes. God forbidden that we should hold of such a mystery more than he teacheth by his word. Hart. Certainly, S. Austin t Epist. 174. ad Pascentium Com. haeres. Arian. writing to an Arian (who denied that God the son is consubstantial with the Father) saith, that as we read not in the holy scriptures the Father 1 Ingenitum. unbegotten, & yet it is defended that it must be said: in like sort it may be that neither 2 Homoousion. consubstantial is found written there, and yet being said in the assertion of faith may be defended. And again u Contr. Maxim. Arianot. episc. lib. 3. cap. 3. disputing against Maximinus a Bishop of the Arians, Give me testimonies (sayst thou) where the holy Ghost is worshipped: as though by those things which we do read, we understood not some things also which we read not. But (that I be not enforced to seek many) where hast thou read God the Father unbegotten or unborn? And yet it is true. Rainoldes. And think you that S. Austin meant by these speeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped, God the Son is of one substance with the Father, God the Father is not begotten or borne? Hart. He seemeth to have meant it. And x Confess. Augustinian. lib. 1. cap. 8. tit. 4. Torrensis (who gathered S. Augustine's Confession out of all his works) allegeth these places to prove that Christians ought to believe many things which have come to us from the Apostles themselves (delivered as it were by hand) although they be not written expressly in scriptures. Rainoldes. The jesuit Torrensis doth great wrong herein to the truth of God, to S. Augustine's credit, and to you who read him. And yet with such a sophism in the word [expressly:] that, if it should be laid unto his charge, he would wash his hands of it, as y Mat. 27.24. Pilate did of Christ's blood. For * cap. 8. de sacris traditionibus. he allegeth those places of S. Austin, thereby to prove Traditions: as though we had received that doctrine (touching God) by tradition unwritten, not by the written word. S. Austin, no such matter. But c Epist. 174. ad Pascentium. dealing with an Arian, who required 2 Ips●m verbum homoousion. the very word consubstantial to be showed in scripture: doth tell him that the thing itself is there found though not that word perhaps. Whereupon, he presseth him in like sort with 1 Hoc verbum, quoth Pater es●o● ingenitus. the word unbegotten: which the Arian having given to God the Father, and defending it: S. Austin replieth, that as he had termed the Father unbegotten, & well, although the word not written: so might the Son also be termed consubstantial; sith the scripture proveth the thing meant thereby. And as with this Arian: so with their bishop Maximinus. a Contr. Maximin. A●ian. episcop. lib. 1. Who having himself termed God the Father unbegotten or unborn, denied the holy Ghost to be equal to the Son, because it is not written that he is worshipped. To the which cavil of his S. b lib. 3. cap. 3. & 10. Austin answereth, that although it be not written in flat terms, yet is it gathered by necessary consequence of that which is written, c Matt. 4.10. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, d 1. Cor. 3.16. & 6.19. the holy Ghost is God, therefore to be worshipped. Thus, S. Augustine's meaning was of these points, that the scripture teacheth them. Whereby you may perceive the fraud of Torrensis. Who saying that they are not expressly written in the scriptures, left himself this refuge, that he might say they are not in express words, though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures. And yet, by referring * Tit. 4. cap. 8. de tradit. that title to traditions, induceth his reader to think that they are taught by tradition, not by scripture. A doctrine, which Arians will clap their hands at: that the Son of God is not (by scripture) of one substance with the Father. But let it be far from you, M. Hart, to think so profanely of the word of God. And, if you rest so much on Doctors of your own side, rest here on e Summ. Theologic. part. 1. quaest. 36. art. 2. Thomas of Aquine rather: who saith that concerning God we must say nothing but that which is found in the holy scripture, * Vel per ve●ba, vel per sensum. either in words, or in sense. Which, as he confirfirmeth by f Dionys. de divin. nomin. ca 1. Denys, and g Damascen. de orthod. sid. lib. 1. cap. 1. & 2. Damascen: so was it the common judgement of h Augu. de Trinitat. lib. 1. ca 2. & 4. the Fathers, of S. Austin chief, as his books touching the Trinity do show. And, in i lib. 15. cap. 2●. the conclusion thereof (for evident proof of that which you denied) he giveth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set down in scripture of the Trinity. Wherefore the scripture compriseth the rule of faith for that point. And as for that point, so for all the rest, which k De doctrine. Christia●. lib. 1. cap. 35.36.37. & 40. in that very book (whereof we spoke) S. Austin noteth. It remaineth therefore that S. Austin meant not by l lib. 3. c. 2. the authority of the church, more than he signified by plainer places of the scriptures. Hart. Yes: his own words in that very sentence do yield sufficient proof (me thinks) that he did. For, if he signified by plainer places of the scriptures, as much as he meant by the authority of the church than was it idle, when he had named the one, to add the other to it: chief in such sort, as that is added by S. Austin. For both the conjunction, the places of scriptures, and the authority of the church, should import things different: and I may say of words, as the Philosopher saith of things, That is done in vain by more that may be done by fewer. Rainoldes. Nothing is done in vain, that is done to edify. The church might well be mentioned, as an interpreter of the word: though it teach not any thing beside the word of God. The people of Israel u Exod, 14.31. did believe the Lord and his servant Moses: yet Moses did nothing but that the Lord commanded him. The wise man doth charge his son x Prou. 1.8. to hearken to the instruction of his father, and forsake not the doctrine of his mother: yet they both (the father, and mother) teach one lesson, the chiefest wisdom, the fear of God. The same is fulfilled in this Moses, and the Lord; or rather in this mother, and our heavenly Father: of whom it hath been said well, y Cyprian. libr. de unitat. eccles. He cannot have God to be his Father, who hath not the church to be his mother. For, God having purposed to make us his children and heirs of life eternal, as he prepared his word, to be, first, the seed, z 1. Pet. 1.23. the immortal seed, of which we are begotten a new, afterward, the milk, a 1. Pet. 2.2. the sincere milk, whereby we (being borne) grow: so he ordained the church by her ministery to teach it, as it were a mother, first, to conceive and bring forth the children, afterward to nourish them, as babes new borne, with her milk. Which appeareth, as by b Namely, by Philip, Act. 8. ●5. & by Peter, Act. 10.34. others, so chief by S. c Gal. 4.19. Paul, who travailed of them in childbirth, whom he sought to convert: and when they were new borne, he * 1. Cor. 3.2. nourished them with milk: to set before our eyes the duty of the church, and all the churches Ministers in bearing children unto Christ. Now, the milk which the church giveth to her children, she giveth it out of her breasts: and her two breasts, are the two testaments of the holy scriptures (by S. d In epist. 1. Io●an. T●actat. 3. Augustine's judgement) the old Testament, and the new. S. Austin therefore, saying, the rule of faith is received of the authority of the church: meant not that the church should deliver any thing, but only what she draweth out of the holy scriptures. Hart. Not for milk perhaps, which babes are to suck: but for strong meat wherewith men are nourished. For mothers feed not their children, being grown, with milk out of their breasts. Rainoldes. But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures have both milk for babes, and strong meat for men: milk, in plainer things and easier to be understood; strong meat, in harder and greater mysteries. Yea, where * Mat. 13.52. Christ said, that every Scribe which is taught unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto an householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things both new and old: S. e Contr. ●a●st. Manichae. l. 14. c. 2. Austin judgeth that he meant by new things and old, the old and new testament. Wherefore, sith every pastor and teacher of the church is meant ( f Staplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 5, you grant) by this Scribe: it followeth by S. Austin that the meat which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the sustenance of his household, must be the Scripture only. Which the light of reason will induce you too, if you believe the former points. For the g Aristot. libr. ●● de or●u & interit. Philosopher teacheth that we are nourished by the same things of which we do consist. Then, if we are begotten of God's word, as seed: the word, as it is milk to nourish us, when we are young; so must it nourish us, when we are grown, as strong meat. But if it were so, that S. Austin had not had this opinion touching strong meat: yet must he needs have it, in that whereof we reason: for there he speaketh of milk. And he saith that the rule of faith is received of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authority of the church: to note the churches practise, h August. de catechizand. rudibus, cap. 3.4.6.7 etc. which, in catechizing of her young ones, taught them summarily the points of belief and the precepts of life. So that the simplest Christians, who had not read themselves the plainer places of the scriptures to learn the rule of faith, yet knew it by the catechism: wherein, through the ministry of the church, they learned it. Now, S. Augustine's catechism hath nothing but the doctrine which Christians may suck out of plainer places of the scriptures. His rule of faith therefore delivered in the plainer places of the scriptures, is the same that the authority of the church delivered. In deed your i Canisius in his latin, Ledesima in his Italian, Vaux in his English catechism. new Doctors in their Popish catechisms have precepts of the church, beside the precepts of the scriptures: & your church, k Ecclesia Roman● omnium ecclesiarum matter & magistra. Council, Trident. Sess. 7. the baptism, can. 3. & Sess. 14. cap. ●. & Sess▪ 22, 〈◊〉 & Sess▪ 25. declet. de lib. delect▪ which nameth herself (though untruly) the mother of all churches, hath more than two breasts, a third, out of the which she poureth poison with her milk▪ Whereby, through good usage, having killed her own children, she claimeth our church's children to be hers: as did l 1. King. 3.17. the woman before Solomon. And the whore hath got her m Saunder. in epist. ad Pium Quint. dedicat. de visib. monar. Staplet. prin. doctrine. lib. 8. cap. 19 atturneys of her minions, which do not only rail at us for not acknowledging her to be our mother: but also belie us * Vulgatam catholicorum vocem de San●ta matr● ecclesia irrident hody & execran●ur haeretici. Staplet. that we scoff at and curse the very title of Holy mother the church. But they whom God hath blessed with the spirit of wisdom, as he did Solomon, will easily discern, that we are so far off from scoffing at and cursing, that we give the name of mother to the church with reverence and joy. Marry, the church of Rome to be called our holy mother, which neither is holy, nor our mother: that our souls detest, and wish that her stepmotherhood may be far from us. As for the rule offaith, to which she layeth claim by her advocate, your Doctor, pleading the title out of Austin, that we as acknowledging her child to be our sister, may take her for our mother: if we follow Solomon and rip up the plea with such a sword as he did; we shall find that the child is neither hers, nor * That is to say, the Popes who (in his Canon law) calleth the church his spouse. Nos justitiam nostram & ecclesiae sponsae nostrae nolentes ne gligere. c. Quoniam. de immunitat. ecclesiar. in Sext. her husbands, but the holy scriptures. For Austin, in saying, the rule of faith is learned of plainer places of the Scriptures and of the authority of the church: named the Scriptures, as the matter, the church as the minister, whereof the rule of faith is learned. Your Doctor, supposing, as well the carpenter, as the timber, to be the stuff, whereof the house must be builded; doth lay his axe to both together: and squaring them alike, doth make him beams, and posts, and ivises, some of the timber, some of the carpenter. Even so, the holy scripture is not the whole matter of the rule of faith: whereof the church ministers, as workmen, and builders, should frame the house of God: but in part, the church; in part, the scripture is the matter. Both which being melted, as were the n Exod. 32.3. earrings of the Israelites, & wrought in fashion by your craftsman, not yielding unto it of weakness, as did Aaron, but seeking after it with greediness, as the people, who knew not what was become of Moses: they will make a rule of faith, not of Christ's, but of the Pope's faith. And this if it be decked with 1 With medals, agnus Deies, hallowed grains, ●eades, crucifixes, and other such jewels. devices to the eye, as that was with gold, and set forth by 2 D. Allen, Campian, Howle●, the Censurer the jesuits and Seminarie-priestes. men whose tongues are their own, and voices sweet to sing the song, o Exod. 32. ver. 4. These be thy Gods, o Israel, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: it will move many to dance for joy about it, in as holy sort, as the golden calf did move p ver. 6. the Israelites to do. Hart. It doth not become you, to scorn in this sort so grave and learned men, as M.D. Stapleton, and others whom you touch: much less the church of Rome, and least of all the Pope's Holiness. Allens Apologue of the English Seminaries chap 2. out of Bede hist. Angl lib. 1. Whose predecessors gave us our a cap. 4. Ele●the●ius. first faith in the time of the britains, and restored it b cap. 23. Gregory the first, who sent Austin. afterward in the days of the English. And do you thus reward them for it? You will make some men perhaps, (if you use it) to give their judgement of you, with what spirit you do it. Rainoldes. If you will speak of him, who gave us our faith: you shall do well to lift up your eyes from dust and rottenness, and cast them somewhat q jam. 1.17. higher. Else, although I will not condemn your spirit therefore, yet I shall fear you do not that honour to God's r 1. Cor. 12.4. Spirit, which would beseem a child of God: for, s 1. Sam. 10.12. who is their father? But, to accept them as the givers of it, whose ministry God used in it: first, as it is doubted of the one side, whether the britains had their first faith from Eleutherius, (it is t Gildas a Bri●tan, ancienter than Bede doth affirm the contrary. And Polidor. Vi●g l. lib. hist. Ang. 2. Gildas testis eft Britannos iam inde ab initio orti Euangelii Christianam accepisse religio nem. more likely, no:) so, of the other side u Bede histor. Anglor. l. 3. c. 21. &. ●2. it is confessed, that all the English had it not from Austin sent by Gregory. Then, if it were so we had it first from them: yet we received it not from the Pope's predecessors. For, as you take the name of Pope for supreme head, and supreme head for that power which you have defined: there was no Pope at all, when we received the faith. The bratte was not yet borne, when Gregory the first, much less, when Eleutherius was Bishop of Rome: as our connference will show. Thirdly, if they who were the predecessors of the Pope (though not as Pope) gave us our first faith: the successors can not complain they gave it freely; they have been paid sweetly for it. x Gratian. 2. q. 7. c. Nossi. § cum Balaam. Your men (to set them up) compare them to Balaam, and y Benedict. Parisiensis, & Bullo c. Anglus in concordant▪ sacr. scripture. Asina, ecclesia. the church to his ass. In deed (we must grant) our church hath been the ass: but z The Chronicles of Thom. Walsingham and Mat. Paris. Chiefly Mat. Paris in Henric. tert. anno Dom. 1245.1246. & 1247. your Balaam hath not refused to accept * Num. 22.18. a house full of silver and gold, nay, he hath been glad to sue for it too. Last of all, if they had given it us freely, and played a kind mother's part: nevertheless, of mother transgressing, as she hath done, a Hos. 2.2. our father saith unto us, * Vulgat. edit. lat. judicate matrem vestram▪ iudicate. Contend with your mother, contend, that she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: to the intent she may remove her fornications out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts. S. Paul was b Act. 22.3. brought up at the feet of Gamaliel: c 5.34. Gamaliel, a great Pharise. Neither was he only the scholar, but the d 23.6. son of a Pharise too. Yet, the duty and love which Paul did owe and bear to his father and master, should never have excused him before the iudgement-seat of God, if he had cleaved still to the Pharises sect, when God did lighten him with greater knowledge of his truth. As for me, of whom some will give their judgement with what spirit I do it, if I jest at your Pharises, or touch your holy mother's whooredomes, and villainies of your holy Father: men's judgements I depend not of: I neither fear them nor despise them. I have * 1. Cor. 4.4. a judge to whom I stand. And I content myself that he assureth my spirit, I do it with the same spirit, though not with like measure of the same spirit, that e 1. Kin. 18.27. Elias did jest at Baalites, and f isaiah. 44.16. Esay did touch idolaters. Wherefore, to go forward with your discourse of D. Stapleton against our error of expounding the scriptures by scriptures: you have the ground of it, that they must be expounded by the rule of faith, and therefore not by scriptures only. Now, as his ground is, so are his proofs: both for your own means first, and afterward against ours. What infallibility and certainty there is in yours, g Staplet. princip. doctr. lib. 11. cap. 4. the practice of the church, h cap. 5. the consent of the Fathers, i cap. 6. the Counsels determination: it will appear (in place of trial) more hereafter, it hath in part already: when you were feign to fly from them all to the Pope, whom here the Doctor had forgotten. Touching ours: he proveth them to be deceitful and unsure, how? k cap. 9 because each of them, if they be taken severally, may cause a man to err: which he showeth by examples in some of the particulars, as, the weighing of the circumstances, the style and phrase of scripture, l cap. 10. the conference of places, m cap. 12. the looking on the Greek and Hebrew. First, if it were so: what shall I call this dealing, treachery, or folly? We teach of our means, that they all, together, do make a perfect way whereby we may find the right sense of the scripture. He replieth against us, that each of them, alone, and taken by itself, is not a perfect way to find it. In the which answer, if you see not his weakness (to speak the best of it:) I will set before you a glass to view it in. It is 1 In the year of Christ, 1578. not many years ago, since Captain Stukely ( 2 Marchio Hyberniae. the Marquis of Ireland, as your stories call him) n Histor. de bello A●ricano quo per●it Sebastianus Rex Portugalliae. cap 7. Ge●ebrard. Chro●ograph. lib. 4. was sent with six hundred Italians by the Pope to take possession of Ireland. Which he was coming to have done, but that (at the request of the King of Portugal) * He was slain there. Hist. de bello Afr. ca 13. he went and took possession of Barbary by the way. An English man might say, to comfort good subjects, that (by God's grace) these Italians and the Marquis, if they had arrived, might have been discomfited by the queens army: as the Pope's soldiers were, who came after them. D. Sanders might reply, to encourage the rebels, that they need not fear it: because the queens soldiers, though they have some strength, yet each of them, alone, and severed from the rest, cannot overcome six hundred Italians, with such a Captain too. And for proof hereof that it is very likely, he might have store of arguments, examples, and testimonies, to discourse at large: with as great eloquence, and no less wisdom, then D. Stapleton hath done to prove the other. Yet this in D. Stapleton is * Demonstratio methodica principiorum fidei doctrinalium Thomae Stapletoni. a demonstration. Had the other been a demonstration too? No marvel that you send us so many books over, if they be fraught with wares of such demonstration. Marvel, you send no more: unless it be lawful for none but public readers, so subtly to prove their things by demonstration. Now, if your Doctors answer be absurd, though none of our means were certain and sure, alone, without the rest, to find the right sense of Scripture: how much more absurd, if any one of them, alone, be sure and certain, and that in his own judgement too? The conference of places of the scripture is so: though he would hide it with a mist. But the mist which o Staplet. prine. doctr. li. 11. c. 10. he casteth, is no thicker than the former. A weak eye may see through it. For we say, that 1 Dextera collatio locorum scripturae. a right conference of places, is a way most excellent: as himself rehearseth our words of that point. And he thereto replieth, that 2 Infeliciter adhibita. a wrong conference, a left one, (so to term it) is no such excellent way. Which is, as if we said, that wise men and virtuous are fit to bear offices in the commonweal: and he, to prove the contrary, should say that mad men and knaves are no good magistrates. If we can see through this mist, the conference of places is a perfect way. For that which we mean by conference of places: S. Austin doth signify by the rule of faith. But p cap. 1. & 3. & 9 the rule of faith, is a way infallible, in your Doctor's judgement. Therefore (to judge him of his own mouth) the conference of places is a way infallible. If this alone: much more this & all the rest being joined together. The means than which we commend to understand and expound the scripture: are sure and certain means whereby the right sense of scripture may be found. But your Doctor saith q cap. 9 that all heretics, and jews, & Paynims use these means, they confer places, they note the kind of speeches, they look upon the fountains, they mark what goeth before, what cometh after, & such like things. If they do not so: your Doctor overlasheth. If they do so: they do more than himself doth in many controversies of faith, which yet he teacheth publicly, and printeth them too. What? And do all heretics, jews and Paynims use these means: and doth none of them see the churches practise; mark the consent of Fathers; read the decrees of counsels? If any of them do; which it is evident many do: then by as wise a reason, as your Doctor maketh, these his own means are not sure neither. Which were a sore consequence, and would raze the church of Rome unto the ground. Let him bethink himself thereof, and heal the breaches, which (if he look not to it) his own shot will make in the walls of his jerusalem. As for us and our means, if any seem to use them, and yet miss the right sense of the scripture: I say with r De doctrine. Christian. lib. ●. a prologue. S. Austin (whom this quarrel maketh as much against, as us;) If they who know these precepts, cannot see the things which are obscure and dark in the Scriptures of God, the fault is in themselves, not in the precepts: as if I should point with my finger at a star, which they would gladly see, and their eyesight were so weak, that although they could see my finger, yet could they not see the star at which I point. Wherefore as S. Austin concludeth of them, Let them cease to blame me, and let them pray to God, that he will give them eyesight: so we do acknowledge that all means are vain, unless the Lord give eyes to see: whom therefore the s Psal. 119.18. Prophet made his prayer to, Open mine eyes, that I may see the wonders of thy law. Hart. You may say what you list. But experience showeth, and it is most certain, that many who allow those means, which you do, and expound the scripture by them, are themselves deceived, and deceive others. For, * Staplet. prin. doctr. lib. 11. cap. 10. the conference of places by which you set more than by all the rest, which you call a great remedy, and the best exposition of scripture that may be had: let this remedy be taken severally and by itself, it is marvelous deceitful, yea pernicious and pestilent; so much the more, by how much (in show) it is more probable, and still at least corrupteth two places of scripture, if it be used perversely. In deed, we acknowledge gladly with S. Austin, that place receiveth light of place, and those things which onewhere are spoken somewhat darkly, are otherwhere more clearly uttered. But in conference of scriptures it is to be known and diligently marked, * Quod observare haeretici nolunt, quia catholici & boni ecclesiae ●ilii esse nolunt. (which heretics will not mark, because they will not be catholics, and good children of the church:) first, that one saying may seem to be like or unlike an other, not so much for the likeness and unlikeness of things, as for the prejudice and affection of them by whom they are conferred. Secondly, that the same word, or kind of speech, hath not every where the same signification, but sometimes diverse, sometimes contrary. Thirdly, that there are many places in the scripture, which being uttered only once, have not any like wherewith you may confer them. Fourthly, and lastly, that all heretics both of this and of all ages, * Conferendo scripturas diligentissimé, erraverunt tamen in Scripturarum sensu turpissimé. in conferring the scriptures most diligently together, yet have erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully. Which reasons why the conference of places of scripture is a deceitful means of expounding the scripture, and leadeth often into error: D. Stapleton, a man well learned out of question, how weak soever you account him, hath set down and proved them with such examples, as might prevail with you perhaps, if you would weigh them. Rainoldes. I have weighed them, and I find them to light. The merchant, whom you praise, is rich, I deny not: but sure he useth false weights, and abuseth the simple, who take their wares upon his credit. Poor men, conceiving well of them whom they fancy, think him to deal uprightly for that he raileth at others, saying that they are deceivers, because they will not be honest dealers, and good children of the weal public. But let his words go: and have an eye to his weights. If you should tell a young beginner in shooting that they who look at the mark and louse directly towards it do not always hit it: your speech were a truth. But if you should say that all naughty archers which are, or ever were, have foully miss the mark in aiming at it most straightly: he might suspect either your skill, or your will, who train up archers so. What may we think then of him who to persuade men that conference of scriptures is a deceitful way to hit their right sense, doth say that all heretics both of this and of all ages, in conferring the scriptures most diligently together yet have erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully? For though they might err in conferring of them: yet the fault thereof must be, not in conferring them most diligently, but in not conferring them diligently enough. And this is the last of your Doctor's reasons. The next before it is no better. He saith, that there are many places in the scripture, which have not any like wherewith you may confer them. The proof he bringeth of it, is, that there are sundry speeches in S. Paul, which are in no Prophet, nor Apostle beside him: as (for example sake) to put of the old man, and put on the new. Which proof is like the point whereof it maketh proof. For, if the same speeches be not in any other, yet there are speeches like them, whereby they may be understood. Or, if not in others: yet in S. Paul himself, who lighteneth so his own speeches. Or, if not in him: yet confer them with the drift and circumstances of the text; the course of things and words will open what is meant by them. And so allege what place of scripture you list, the darkest that you can: let a man expound it after our rules, and it will never lead him into heresy. For either it hath plain places to expound it, and being expounded according unto them, it is far from heresy: or if it have no such, it hath no danger of heresy, because all things required to belief and life are set down plainly in the Scriptures. The danger all lieth in your first and second point: the one, touching sayings, that men's corrupt affections may judge unlike or like, when in truth they are not so: the other touching words, that may be mistaken through men's oversights, as signifying the same thing, or sundry, which they do not. And by these means we grant that the scriptures, may be (and are of many) expounded amiss: to the verifying of that which S. Pet. 3.16. Peter writeth of S. Paul's epistles, that in them are some things hard to be understood: which they that are unlearned and unstable do pervert, as they do also other scriptures, to their own destruction. Hereof we have notable examples in yourselves: or (because of yours we shall speak hereafter) in the Family of love, and that imp of Satan, their master, Harry Nicolas. Whom the spirit of error hath (through an illusion of ignorance) so bewitched, that, as though he took a glory in his shame, to be himself, and his, unlearned, (such as S. Peter pointeth at,) u In the gospel of the kingdom, cap 23.6 & 33.11. and so forth in that, and the rest of his pamphlets. he detesteth the learned and skilful in the scripture, the scripture-wise, as he termeth them, and giveth it in charge to his babes to shun them. Christ was too skilful in scriptures for the Devil. Else might x Mat. 4.6. the Devil, by the show of scripture, which he did allege (or missealleage rather) have persevered with greater hope in tempting Christ. But shall we suspect and mislike the scripture, because he missealleaged it? or the conference of scripture, because his imps use it perversely? We have not learned Christ so. Nay, so much the more should we labour and travail to search it most diligently, and wisely to confer it: to wrest by that means their sword out of their hands, and kill their own error with it. For, the destruction of such spiritual foes, is the sword of the spirit: and y Ephes. 6.17. the sword of the spirit, is the word of God. So the Family of love, which make a mock of our faith, our salvation by Christ, our resurrection, the judgement, and everlasting life; and (to save their frenzies from danger of the scripture) beat flat the literal sense, which is the edge of it, and put it up into a scabbard of their fanatical dreams and allegories: let z Hebr. 4.12. the two edged sword be drawn out and sharpened with this conference, and, as the flame of fire devoureth the stubble, so will the point of truth rip up the bowels of their errors. So the Arians, when they brought broken sentences of scripture, in show resembling somewhat their blasphemous doctrine against the son of God, but indeed unlike it: they were overthrown through the conference of a Theodor. hist. ecclesiast. l. 1. c. 7. scriptures by the Nicen council and b Athanas. con●tra A●ian. Gregor. Nazianz. de Filio. ●asil. contra Eunomium. Hilari. & Augustin. de Trinitat. & contra Arian. godly pastors of the church. So the Pelagians, the enemies of grace under the name of nature, when they trifled vainly to shift the scriptures off, which make against the frée-will of man for God's favour: they were put to flight with plainer places of the scriptures, by the Counsels of c In epist. ad Innocent. epist. 90. inter epist. August. Carthage, of d Epist. 92 〈◊〉 epistolas Augustin. Milevis, of e Concilium A●a●sican. secundum. Orange, and chiefly by S. f In operibus contra. Pelagianos Tom. 7. Austin. So hath God confounded others of that rabble, & will (no doubt) their complices: if with the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, we join the g Ephes. 6.16. shield of faith to quench the fiery darts of Satan. The Family of love shall feel it in time; the Father of the Family feared it: and therefore he warned his children to beware of them who bear this weapon, and have skill to handle it, of scripture-learned men. And you, h Howle● in his epistle to the Queen's Majesty. who lay the Family's sin to our charge, as though we did foster that venomous viper's brood, do join yourselves to them, and march into the field with them, and strengthen their hands against us. Of you they have learned to take up the name of i ●crip●ura●ii. Albeit. Pighius ecclesiast. hiera●. l. 1. c. 2. Scripturemen by way of scoff, and use it as a contumely. You teach them, that k Staplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 10. the diligent, yea the most diligent conference of scriptures, is the path of heretics to most damnable errors. You persuade them that l Lindan. de optim. gen. inte●pr. Scripture. Staplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 12. the fountains of the Greek and Hebrew text, are neither pure, nor greatly needful. You tell them that m Staplet. prin. doctr. l. 11. c. 9 & 10. to expound the scripture by scripture is good, and it is fruitful to confer places, to observe the words and circumstances of the text: but there are many dangers and difficulties in it; the text is not always knit and coherent to itself; the very order of speaking is oftentimes abrupt, sometimes preposterous altogether; there are sundry * These are Giants, the sons of Anak, of whom it is written N●m. 13.34. hyperbata and * These are Giants, the sons of Anak, of whom it is written N●m. 13.34. anantapodota in S. Paul; one word, yea in one sentence hath sundry significations: places may seem like one to an other, that are unlike, and contrariwise: and many more such inconveniences, enough to break the hart of a weak Christian. In the which dealing you do band yourselves with the ten spies: n Num. 13.28. who, when they should have encouraged the people of Israel to enter into the land of promise, they told them that the land certainly is good, and floweth with milk and honey; but the people dwelling in it, is strong, and the cities walled, exceeding great, and the sons of Anak (Giants) be there. The Amalekites dwell in the south country; the Hitthites, and jebusites, and Amorites dwell in the mountains: the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Iorden. The o Psal. 95.11. Lord swore in his wrath, both to these spies, and to the people who believed them, that they should not enter into his rest. At you, and your men, I marvel, (M. Hart) that whose fact you follow, you tremble not at their end. As for us, although we were but two against your ten, and all the people would rather believe you then us: yet we will follow them who were Num. 14.14. of an other spirit, Caleb and josua, and with them will we say to the whole assembly of the children of God; p Num. 14.7. The land, through the which we have gone to search it, is an excellent good land. If the Lord take delight in us, he will bring us into this land, and give it us: even a land that floweth with milk and honey. Only rebel ye not against the Lord, neither fear ye the people of the land: for they are bread for us. In deed the holy scripture is bread for our souls: and the word of God is the food of life. If the Lord take delight in us, he will bring us unto it, and give it us. Let us not rebel against him, nor fear the hardness of it. We must q joh. 5 39 search the scriptures, and r jam. 1.5. pray to him for wisdom, and s Mat. 7.7. he will open them to us, (for he hath promised) and make us learned in them. Hart. We acknowledge with you * Staple●. prin●. doctrine. lib. 10. cap. 10. & li. 11. cap. 9 that the means you mention, namely, to search the scriptures and to pray to God for wisdom and knowledge, are good and godly means whereby we may the sooner come to understand them, or rather be prepared thereto. But such, as nevertheless are not still effectual. Rainoldes. They are still effectual, if men pray, as they should; and search them as they ought: t 1. joh. 5.14. in the spirit of faith u Rom. 12.3. and modesty. Hart. True, in that measure, which is fit for every man's vocation and duty: some, to exhort and comfort privately, some publicly to teach the church. But after you have said all that you can: we shall never grow to any end and issue, if we follow this way. For, if you allege the scripture against me, and I against you: if I expound it by conference of this place, and you of that: if in your opinion one sentence be plain, and in mine an other: in mine, our meaning right, and in yours the contrary: what end can our controversies have without a judge? And if you yield to a judge, who fit for it then the Pope? Rainoldes. Who, but Christ our Saviour? And they which under him have it committed to them, even the Church of Christ? Hart. The Church? Nay you mentioned the godly before, and spoke as if they should try the truth from error, by conference of the scriptures. Which is your right kind of trial and judgement. But you are ashamed of it now belike, as in truth you may be. For you shall find many tailors and cobblers more godly than sundry more learned than they. Yet I trust you will not repair for shreds and clouts to any shop of theirs. Rainoldes. Yet the shreds and clouts of tailors and cobblers may have greater knowledge perhaps and better judgement of the sense of scriptures, then the scarlet gowns of learneder men than they. For the learned Pharisees, x joh. 7. ver. 49. who condemned the people as ignorant of the law, did not judge the doctrine of Christ to be true: nay y ver. 52. they rejected it as false with search, and see. But z Act 17. ver. 11. the men of Beroea (some of whom by likelihood were tailors, or cobblers, or at least common artificers as mean as they) a ver. 1●. received it with all readiness, & (upon the search of the scriptures) believed it. Howbeit when I mentioned that judgement of the godly, I meant the godly learned. Wherefore you needed not to speak of shreds and clouts, but that you were loath perhaps to lose this jest. Chief, sith I showed thereupon withal, that, for the trial of controversies by scripture, the tongues (in which the scripture is written) must be known, namely, Greek and Hebrew. The which shreds and clouts, neither many tailors and cobblers with us, neither many Cardinals and Popes with you have. Nor yet am I ashamed of that kind of trial and judgement by the godly who have not learned tongues, and arts, but Christ only. And I comprised it in that which I said, that Christ is the judge, and they which under him have it committed to them, even the church of Christ. For himself hath given by special commission two sorts of judgement to his church, the one private, the other public: private, to all the faithful, and b ●. Cor. 2.15. spiritual, as God calleth them, who are willed c 1. Cor. 10.15. to judge of that which is taught, and to d 1. joh. 4.1. try spirits whither they be of God: public, e Act. 15.6. to the assembly of pastors and elders: for f 1. Cor. 14.29. of that which Prophets teach, let Prophets judge, and g 1. Cor. 14.32. the spirits of Prophets are subject to the Prophets. In both of the which, the church must yet remember, that God hath committed nothing but the ministery of giving judgement unto her. The sovereignty of judgement doth rest on God's word. For Christ is 1 Matt. 23.10. our only Doctor & 2 jam. 4.12. Lawgiver: according to whose written will the church must judge. And so, The third Division. to return unto the words of Christ, from which we digressed: the sense (I gave of them) will I prove by scripture, according to the rule of faith: the proof of the sense I submit to the private and public judgement of the church. The words of Christ to Peter, contained a promise of the keys, I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. The occasion of the words, was a question of Christ, asked of the Apostles, answered by Peter: whom say ye that I am? Thou art Christ the Son of the living God. The sense which I gathered by laying these together, was, that as Peter answered, one, for all: so the keys were meant to him, one, with all. To prove the former point, that Peter answered, one, for all: the scripture is most plain, in the sixth of john, where (before this time) Peter had confessed in their common name, h joh. 6. 6●. We believe, and know, that thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. To prove the later, that the keys were meant to him, one, with all: the scripture is as plain in the twentieth of john, where Christ performing that which he had promised to Peter, doth say to him with the rest, i joh. 10. ver. 22. & 2●. As my Father sent me, so do I send you. Whose sins soever ye remit, they are remitted to them: & whose sins soever ye retain, they are retained. Wherefore sith the keys were promised by Christ on the profession of their faith, which was common to them all: and the promise was performed, when he sent them all with power to bind and lose, to remit and retain sins: it followeth that the keys belonged no more to Peter, then to all the Apostles. And therefore the promise of the keys to him, importeth no headship of his over them. Hart. That which was promised by Christ unto Peter, was not performed to the Apostles. For, he gave not them the keys of his kingdom: but the power of remitting and retaining sins. Rainoldes. These things differ in words, but they are one in sense: as joseph said to Pharaoh, k Gen. 41.25. Both Pharaos' dreams are one. For as God, to teach Pharaoh what he would do in Egypt by seven years of plenty, & seven years of famine, did use two sundry dreams, of kine, and ears of corn, the surer to resolve him of his purpose in it: so Christ, to teach us what he doth for mankind in ordaining the ministery of the word & Sacraments, l Mat. 16.19. useth two similitudes, the one, of keys, the other, of binding & losing, that we may know the better the fruit & force of it. Touching the keys: he speaketh of heaven, as of a house, wherinto there is no entrance for men, unless the door be opened. Now we (all Adam's offspring) are shut out of heaven, as Adam our progenitor was out of Paradise, through our offences and sins. For m Reu. 21.27. no unclean thing shall enter into it. But n joh. 3.16. God, of his love and favour towards us, hath given us his son, his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life: which is o 1. Pet. 1.4. the inheritance reserved in heaven, for us. p Rom. 10.14. We cannot believe, unless we hear his word. We hear not his word, unless it be preached. Wherefore when q Luc. 4.18. & 〈◊〉. 61. ●. God the Father sent his son Christ, and r Mar. 16.15. & Luc. 24.47. Christ sent his Apostles as his Father sent him, to preach his word to men, that they who repented and believed in Christ should have their sins forgiven them, the faithless & unrepentant should not be forgiven: then he gave authority as it were to open heaven to the faithful, and to shut it against the wicked. Which office (to shut, and open) because in men's houses it is exercised by keys: and s 2. King. 18.18. the steward of the house is said t isaiah. 22.22. to have the key of it, to open it and to shut it: therefore Christ, the principal steward of God's house is said u Reu. 3.7. to have the key of David: and he gave his Apostles the keys (as you would say) of the kingdom of heaven, when he made them his * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 1. Cor. 4.1. stewards to shut out, to let in. The other similitude of binding and losing is to like effect. For x Rom. 5.12. we are all by nature the children of sin, y Rom. 6.23. and therefore of death. Now sins are in a manner the same to the soul, that z Prou. 5.22. cords to the body: and the endless pains of death, (that is, the wages of sin) are like to a 2. Pet. ●. 4. chains, wherewith the wicked are bound in hell, as b 1. Pet. 3.19. in a prison. From these cords of sin, and chains of death eternal, men are loosed by Christ, when their sins be remitted: their sins are remitted, if they believe in him. If they believe not, their sins are retained: whose sins are retained, they do continue bound. For, c joh. 3.18. he that believeth not, shall be condemned: he that believeth, shall be saved. None shall be condemned but they whose sins are retained, to bind them with the chains of darkness: none saved, but they whose sins are remitted, and the cords unloosed by which they were holden. UUherefore, sith the Gospel is preached to this end d ●. Cor. 2.16. a savour of life to life unto believers; unto the unbelievers, a savour of death to death: as we read of Christ, that e isaiah. 61.1. the Lord sent him to preach deliverance to the captives, and opening of prison to them that are bound: in like sort his ministers whom he sent to preach it, are said f Matt. 16.19. & 18.18. to bind and lose, g joh. 20.23. to retain and remit sins. So that both these kinds of speech import the same that is signified by keys. For, to bind, and to retain sins, is to shut: to lose, and to remit sins, is to open the kingdom of heaven. Your own church doth take the keys in this meaning: even h Catechism. Concil. Trident. in Sacram. P●●niten●. the Council of Trent. For, whereas Christ gave to his Apostles and their successors the power of binding and losing, that is, of remitting and retaining sins, as yourselves expound it: this power you call the power of the keys, as by which an entrance into heaven is opened: because the gates of heaven are as it were unlocked to them, who have remission and forgiveness of sins, and locked to the rest. Which things being so, this sum ariseth of them, that, sith the keys of the kingdom of heaven are all one with the power of binding and losing, of remitting and retaining sins: Christ therefore, when he promised the keys, meant that power; and, when he gave that power, gave the keys. But, he gave that power to all the Apostles. It followeth then, he gave the keys to them all. Hart. You expound these places, I cannot tell how. For much of that which you say, is said by us also: and yet you agree not with us in the principal. Howsoever you cast the parcels of your count: there is a fault in the sum. Wherefore you must pardon me if I allow it not. For, (to use * Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 6. ca 1. his words, whose opinion, though you mislike him, I far esteem above yours:) by the name of the keys of the kingdom of heaven which Christ promised to Peter, he simply meant all power, whereby the kingdom of heaven (in whatsoever sense you take it) may be shut and opened. As for that which followeth, a Matt. 16.19. and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt lose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven: 1 Non est (ut quiba●dam visum suit) explicatio, aut limitatio ipsatum clavium. this is not (as some have thought) an explication or limitation of the keys. For so, by those words, should Christ have restrained the power of Peter to the only outward ecclesiastical court. For 2 Omnium Doctorum scholasticorum sententia. it is the common opinion of all the Schoolmen, that by those words, b Mat. 18.18. whatsoever ye shall bind, and so forth, (which are like to these words spoken unto Peter, and have the same meaning) an ecclesiastical judge in the outward court is made: as by those other words, c joh. 20.23. whose sins ye remit, and so forth, an ecclesiastical judge in the inward court is made. Wherefore, if d Mat●. 16. 1● in this place, that [whatsoever thou shalt bind] were an explication or limitation of the keys: then by the name of keys were promised to Peter a power judicial only in the outward court: which is but a part (and that a lesser part) of the power of the keys. For a great deal more excellent is the power of remitting sins, then of excommunicating or suspending a man from his office or honour: and therefore this may be exercised by him that is not a Priest, whereas the other belongeth unto Priests only. Again, because our Saviour 3 Illud, et quodc●n queliga●e●●●, co●●unctiué ad ●it. addeth with a conjunction, & whatsoever thou shalt bind: it must note differently some distinct power, at the least in special: even as the other things, all that go before, uttered coniunctively, are things distinct and different: to wit, and I say to thee, and upon this peter, and hell gates shall not prevail, and to thee will I give the keys, and lastly, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, and so forth. Wherefore in these last words is promised to Peter, not only power of binding and losing in the court, either outward or inward; which both are only 4 Partiales actus ipsarum clavium: that is, part of those things which are done by the keys. partial actions of the keys. But because the keys themselves were promised him, indefinitely, and were not restrained to any one kind of opening or shutting: doubtless all the power which is contained in the keys was promised to him, how great soever it be, and of what sort soever. Now 5 Tota et adaequata potestas ●psis clavibus. the whole power, and correspondent fully and evenly to the keys, is to open and shut: what means soever it be done by. For, to open and shut is the duty of keys: in token whereof the keys of the city are brought unto the chiefest magistrate, that by his commandment the city may be shut and opened. To receive the keys therefore of the kingdom of heaven, is, to receive the power of shutting and opening the kingdom of heaven: whither you take the name of the kingdom of heaven for everlasting life, or for the communion of the militant church. Now this is done by divers and many other ways, beside those of binding and losing in either court. For Pastors do open and shut the kingdom of heaven, (the one, by exercising that power; the other, by withdrawing it) in their whole spiritual government: in preaching of the word, in ministering of Sacraments, in making of laws, in expounding of the holy scripture, in declaring articles of faith, in deciding points of controversy and doubt. To be short, the keys of the church may be divided, into the key of knowledge, and the key of power. To open the scriptures, belongeth to the key of knowledge: which Christ himself exercised in the four and twentieth of Luke, and whereof he said to the Lawyers, e Luk. 11.52. ye have taken away the key of knowledge, and so forth. The key of power, is either of order, or jurisdiction. And jurisdiction itself is either in the outward court, by excommunicating, by suspending from office, by granting of pardons, and making of laws: or in the inward court, by forgiving of sins. All this 5 Amplissima e● adaequata potestas clavium. most ample power, & correspondent wholly and evenly to the keys, is promised in this place by Christ to Peter only. Which, as the force and meaning of the word [keys,] so the kind of speech of holy scripture showeth. For (in Esay the Prophet) when it had been said 6 Summo sacerdoti Eliachim. to the high Priest Eliakim in the figure of Christ, f isaiah. 22.22. The key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder: the scripture declaring the use of this key doth by and by add; and he shall open and none shall shut, he shall shut and none shall open. Which likewise is spoken again of the person of Christ in the Apocalypse: for he is called g Apocal. 3.7. the holy one and true, which hath the key of David, which openeth and no man shutteth, shutteth and no man openeth. Wherefore, as Eliakim in figure, Christ in truth, receiving the key of the house of David, that is, of the church, or the kingdom of heaven, received withal the power of shutting and opening: in like sort S. Peter being to receive (in the room and steed of Christ) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, is (out of controversy) to receive withal the power of shutting and opening; that is to say, not only of binding and losing in judgement of both the courts, which are only 4 Partiales non totales, et minores non praecipui actus clau●um. partial not total, and lesser not chief actions of the keys, which also were committed to all the Apostles in the eightienth of Matthew, and twentieth of john, 7 Quum soli P●tro claves datae fuerint. whereas the keys were given to Peter alone: but also beside, of governing, of teaching, of disposing, and doing all things which may any way belong to the general duty of a Pastor: which actions are fully and evenly correspondent to the keys themselves, and therefore in those words were promised 8 Soli P●tro principaliter, ante et supra alios omnes. to Peter alone principally, before and over all the rest. This is D. Stapletons' judgement of the keys promised to Peter: wherein the ground of Peter's supremacy and headship over the Apostles is set down very plainly, and very strongly proved. Rainoldes. This long and smooth tale, which you have told out of your Doctor, is like to that nightingale to which i Plutarch in a 〈◊〉 Lacon. a Lacedaemonian, when he had plucked her feathers off, and saw a little caraine left, said, Thou art a voice, nought else. Pluck off the feathers of your tale: the body is a poor carcase, and hath no substance in it. Howbeit, the names of the two courts, the outward court, the inward court, with other tunes of like music: are very sweet melody in the ears of them, whose hearts are in the court of Rome. As for simple men, who have been only conversant in * Psal. 34.2. the courts of the Lord: they sound to them like strange languages, and seem to contain more profound mysteries than we can reach the depth off. But, to open your answer, that it may be seen what is unsound in it: this is the point of the thing in controversy. I say that the power promised to Peter by the name of the keys, in the sixteenth of Matthew: was performed and given to all the Apostles by the commission of Christ, in the twentieth of john. You with Stapleton deny it. Why? Because the keys promised to Peter do signify all kind of power; whereof a part only was given to the Apostles, to bind and lose in either court. And how prove you this? Forsooth, because by these words, whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt lose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, Christ doth Non est (ut quibusdam visum fuit) explica●io, aut limitatio ipsarum clavium. not expound what he meant by the keys, as some men (say you) have thoughtthat he doth. Then some men have thought that the power of the keys, and the power of binding and losing are all one: the later added by Christ to expound the former. In deed I thought so: and I perceive by you that I thought not so alone: some other men have thought it too. But, you say it is not, as some men have thought. Yet you do not tell us the names of these [some men.] Might we know (I pray) what these [some men] be? Hart. What matter is it, who they be? sith we are not of their mind. Rainoldes. Yes: it is a matter. For if I knew them, it may be I would talk with them. Hart. To confirm you in your error. But learned men do vary in expounding of Scriptures: some hit the mark, some miss it. And D. Stapleton, reading many of all ●ortes, might fall on some expounding it amiss (as you do,) whom he for modesty would not name, where he reproveth their opinion. Rainoldes. This modesty I like not. The truth is, he durst not name them, lest we should know them, and be the more strengthened by them in the truth to the confounding of your error. For, these [some men] whom he so lightly trippeth over, are, but all the Fathers: who have with one consent expounded Christ's promise of the keys, as we do. Now, the exposition which the Fathers make, is (by his own judgement) the church's exposition, which hath the right sense of the scripture. And so while he is launching out into the deep, to fetch in a prize for Peter of Rome's supremacy: he maketh shipwreck in the haven. Hart. How know you, that the Fathers all have so expounded it? You have not read them all: have you? Rainoldes. No truly. Neither ever am likely to do it. But I have read him, that hath read them all, I trow. And he being a man worthy (with you) of credit, doth witness, that I say true. Hart. Who is that? Rainoldes. Even Father Robert: the public reader and professor of divinity in Rome. Who, k Robert. Be●larmin. in praelect. Rom. Controu. 4. Quaest. 3. De Summo ● on't. when he discoursed of Christ's words to Peter, Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt lose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven: said, that all power of the keys is therein promised, not restrained to part, but enlarged to what soever. Yea, that Christ likewise promised the same power to all the Apostles, when * Mat. 18.18. he spoke in like words, Whatsoever ye bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, & what soever ye lose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. For, albeit Origen (more subtly, then literally) doth put a difference between the promises, because, in the one, the word, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Matth. 18.18. [heaven] is used; in the other, 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Matth. 16.19. [heavens:] yet the common exposition of S. jerom, S. Hilary, S. Anselme, and others upon this place, yea of S. Austin himself in his treatise upon john, is, that Christ speaketh of the power of the keys by which the Apostles and their successors do bind or lose sinners. And although it seemeth, that here is chiefly meant the power of jurisdiction whereby sinners are excommunicate: yet the said Fathers do understand it of both the powers, not only of jurisdiction but of order too. And that may be gathered (it seemeth) by the text. For it is said as generally to the Apostles, What things soever ye shall bind: as it is to Peter, What thing soever thou shalt bind. Hart. Perhaps Father Robert doth bring in these things by way of an objection, and frameth thereunto an answer, and so resolveth to the contrary. Rainoldes. No. But he bringeth your opinion in deed by way of an objection, and frameth thereunto an answer, and so resolveth to the contrary. For thus he goeth forward. What? Is that given then to all the Apostles, which was promised to Peter? Caietan (in his treatise of the Pope's authority) saith that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the power of binding and losing, are not all one: for that to bind and lose is less than to open and shut. But this doctrine seemeth to be more subtle than true. For it is a thing unheard of, that there are in the Church any other keys than the keys of order and of jurisdiction. And the sense of those words, I will give thee the keys, and whatsoever thou shalt bind and lose, is plain: that first, a certain power and authority is promised; afterward, the function of it is declared. Now the function of these keys is declared by the words to bind and lose, not by the words, to shut and open: that we may understand they be metaphorical and borrowed kinds of speeches; neither heaven is opened properly, but it is said that heaven is opened then with these keys when men are loosed and dispatched of the difficulties and infirmities which shut them out of heaven, and so forth. Thus saith your chiefest reader, and jesuit Robert Bellarmin: whose judgement (by your leave) I far esteem, in this point, above D. Stapletons', as more agreeable to the scriptures. Hart. You may esteem it, as you li●t. But I am not bound to stand to Bellarmine's judgement. Rainoldes. But you are bound to stand to the judgement of the Fathers, by the Council of Trent: and that l Allens Apolog. of the English seminar. chap. 5. Cone. Trid. Sess. 4. The Bull of the oath (annexed to the Council of Trent:) Sacram Scripturam nunquam nisi juxta unanimem consensum Patrum accipiam & interpretabor. upon your oath, as I take it. With the which oath I know not how D. Stapleton dispenseth. Unless the Pope expound it, that you must follow them, so far as they do go with him: or else * Pope Pius the fourth. Bulla Sanctissimi Domini nostri Domini Pii divina providentia Papae quarti, Super forma juramenti professionis fidei. the oth-maker, meant not to bind you to it. Let us give a passport then unto the Fathers. It may be that the man was moved (in conscience) by light of truth to vary from them. Let us hear what moved him. The same is not meant (saith he) by the keys, and by the words, to bind and lose, as some men have thought. And why? For all the Schoolmen are of opinion, that to bind and lose doth note a power judicial in the outward court only: to remit and retain sins, in the inward court. By the outward court, he meaneth the consistory: wherein the church-discipline and censure is exercised. By the inward court, the conscience: wherein a man's trespasses and sins are bound or loosed. So (in effect) he saith, that the power of remitting sins and censuring sinners, were only meant (in the speeches of Christ) to the Apostles: and not the most ample and large power of keys (promised to Peter) 2 Omnium Doctorum scholasticorum sententia. by the judgement of all the Schoolmen. Which proof, though it cannot weigh as much for him, as the Fathers against him: yet herein his dealing is orderly and plain, that, leaving the Fathers, he cleaveth to the Schoolmen. For (when all is done) the Schoolmen are the men that must uphold Papistry: with the friendly help of the Canonists their brethren. The Scriptures and Fathers would be pretended for a show, to countenance the matter. But they are like to images in old buildings of antic work: which are framed so, that with their shoulders they seem to bear the roof, whereas that in deed doth rest on walls or pillars. The Schoolmen and the Canonists, the fountains of the corruption which hath infected the Church of Christ; the Schoolmen, in doctrine, by the opinions of Popery; the canonists, in discipline, by the state of the Papacy: the Schoolmen and the Canonists are the two pillars that uphold your Church, as m judg. 16.29. the house of Dagon, in the which the Philistines triumph and insult over the faith and God of Samson. What then, if the Schoolmen, whose n 1. Tim. 6. 2●. oppositions of science falsely so called, are noted by S. Paul, that Timothee may avoid them, who (the most ofthem) came with feet unwashed into the lords sanctuary, who being ignorant of the tongues wherein the holy Ghost wrote, (great helps to understand his meaning,) searched not the sense of scripture in the scripture, but in humane sense, and so expounded it thereafter: what, if they say, that to bind and lose doth make a judge only in the outward court: to remit and retain sins, in the inward court: and both import less than the keys, which open all in court and country? I have proved the contrary by conference of the Scriptures. You can not deny but that the Fathers teach the contrary. Where is your discretion? Who, though the Scriptures (as we prove,) the Fathers (as you grant,) do say it is so: yet you say it is not so, because the Schoolmen think not so. As if you should say in a matter of state, which is allowed and ordained by the Queen and Council, that although they will it, yet may it not be done: why? because the Yeomen of the kitchen like it not. Hart. If you believed so rightly as you ought, with Catholics: you would not think so basely of Schoolmen, as you do. For, (as o Locor. Theologicor. ●ib. 8. cap. 1. Melchior Canus writeth well and truly) the contempt of school-divinity is a companion of heresy: & the heresies of Luther, of Wicklef, of Melanchthon, and (in a word) of all the Lutherans, do seem to have flowed most from that fountain, even from the despising of the Schoolman's judgement. But, howsoever you esteem them, p cap. 4. their common opinion, when they all consent and agree in one, is of such weight with us: that we account it a point of great rashness, and almost of heresy to dissent from them. They have not such ornaments offiner learning and the tongues, as some in our days have: but they have the substance, q The narration of the English Seminary in Rome. the pith of all sciences: chiefly S. Thomas of Aquine, one of the gravest and learnedst divines, that ever Christ's church had, whatsoever ignorant heretics (which understand him not) esteem of him. Rainoldes. My judgement of the Schoolmen, is such as they deserve. If Canus have judged more favourably ofthem, he is to be borne with: sith r Locor. Theolog. lib. 8. cap. 1. himself desired to be thought a Schoolman. Though, if I should grant them as much as he doth, that, when they all agree in one they must be followed: they would not trouble us greatly in many points of faith. For they are at such contention (for themost part) and that, about such matters: that S. s 1. Tim. 6.4. Paul's reproof of questions and strife of words never fell on any more justly then on them. But as Canus speaketh of school-divines, and school-divinity: he and I descent not, though I be against them, and he for them, in show. Sophocles, the poet, (a writer of tragedies) being asked ofhi friend, why, when he brought in the persons ofwomen, he made them always good, whereas Euripides made them bad: because I (quoth he) do represent women such as they should be: Euripides, such as they be. So the matter fareth between me and Canus. For he doth paint out Schoolmen such as they should be: and I such as they be. I speak against them who perverting the scriptures, have profaned divinity with philosophy, or rather sophistry, and yet are called school-divines, when they are neither Scholars in truth, nor Divines. He accounteth none a Schoole-divine, but him, t Locor. Theolog. lib. 8. cap. 1. who reasoneth of God and things concerning God, fitly, wisely, learnedly out of the holy scriptures & ordinances of God. Now, if none be a Schoole-divine, but such; nor any divinity, school-divinity but that, * Quae sacrarum literarum fundamentis constituta sit. which is set on the foundations of the holy scriptures, as Canus doth define it: then shall I gladly both yield to school-divinity, & follow Schooledivines: but I deny them to be school-divines, whom you meant in citing Schoolmen. Yea even Thomas of Aquine, whom your Popes set more by, then by all the Doctors, placing him as 1 Pope Viban. In confirmat. & approbat. doctrinae S. Thomae. chiefest, and 2 Pope Innocent. In serm. ecce plus quam Solomon hic. Augustin. Hunae. praefat. Summ. Theolog. Thom. Aquin. first after the scripture, and worthily, for he was the first thorough-papist of name that ever wrote, and with his rare gifts of wit, learning, and industry did set out Popery most, that he might well be 3 Pope Pius the fift. In bulla super celebratione festivitatis Angelici Doctoris S. Thomae Aquin. Eclog. Bullar. & Motuproprior. praised as the standerd-bearer of the faith maintained by the Council of Trent: even him will I follow, so long as he showeth himself such a Schoolman, as Canus praiseth to us. But he showeth not himself such a Schoolman, when he doth (as he doth oft; so much we understand in him) keep down the truth & set up error: either by mistaking the scripture against scripture; or by holding the corruptions of faithful men, as incorrupt; or by following the glimpses of Philosophers as perfect light. By mistaking the scripture: through faulty translations or expositions of men. By the corruptions of the faithful: in the practice of the church, or some opinions of Fathers. By the glimpses of Philosophers: in taking grounds of Aristotle as principles of truth, equal to the word of God. I set not down examples of all Popish errors, grown by these occasions, confirmed by Thomas and the Schoolmen. Because in our conference, they shall (if God will) have each their due places. Now for the present, I grant, that the contempt of the Schoolman's doctrine, (on these considerations) hath moved us to depart from your Catholic errors: and a Lutheran mislike, not of school-divinity, but of this school-divinity, is a companion of our heresy: and in our Universities, Oxford and Cambridge, we study scriptures more than it; so that (in some part) you rail upon us justly, 1 The narrat. of the English se●●n. in Rome. that heresy in England hath abandoned the study of it. For we had not believed u Act. 24.5. & 28.22. the heresy of Christ and that new fangled man, his Apostle, S. Paul: unless we had contemned the Catholic fancies of the Schoolmen, who (as x Act. 19.24. Demetrius) strive against it. But you shall never drive me with bugs of 2 Whence the names of Lutherans, Wiclefists, Melanchthonists are taken up against us, by Hofius, Staphylus, Sanders: as likewise of Caluinists, and Anglo-caluinists by D Stapleton. the names of Luther, or Wicklef, or Melanchthon, or any else, from holding that with them which they hold of God. For though we rejoice not in names drawn from them, with the which you press us, but in the name of y Act 11.26. Christians, z 1. C●or. 1.13. into the which we are baptised: yet I know no harm by them, nor you, I think (set slanders apart) why we should be ashamed of them, more than our fathers were of Caecilian, a August. brevic. collat. cum Donatist. collat. diei 3. cap. 4. of whom the Donatists called them Caecilianists. But had they been as evil as their enemies report them, their lives stained with lewdness, their doctrine mixed with leaven, no less than were the Pharisees: S. b Act. 23.6. Paul hath taught me to acknowledge myself even a Pharisee (if need be, not only a Lutheran) in that the Pharises teach a truth of Christian faith, the resurrection of the dead. Wherefore, if the Schoolmen (to return to my purpose) if all the Schoolmen had distinguished the keys from the function of binding and losing, that function from the remitting and retaining of sins, as you say they do: yet might not their credit overweigh the reasons which I have laid against it. But what if all the Schoolmen have not done so? As in deed they have not. What if they have done the contrary rather? What shall we say of him who hath taught his tongue so shamefully to lie, as though he neither feared God nor reverenced men? First, c Sententiar. li. 4. Distinct. 18. & 1●. Peter Lombard, the father of the Schoolmen, doth define the keys by the knowledge and the power of binding & losing: and so he divideth and handleth them accordingly. The next after him, d Summ. Theolo. part 4. quaest. 20. memb. 2. & 5. Alexander of Alice, treadeth the same steps: and saith, that to bind and lose is as much as to open and shut: which is the whole power of the keys. Thomas of Aquine after him, misliking e In magistr. sent. lib. 4. distinct. 18· quaest. 1. art. 1. Peter Lombard for requiring knowledge (which some, who claim the keys, have not,) agreeth with him in the rest, and maketh the power of binding and losing, to be the substance of the keys. john Scot after him, f Script. Oxon. in Magist. sent. lib. 4. dist. 19 art. 5. although he distinguisheth between the two courts, secret, and open, as you do: g Art. 3. yet he dreameth not of any other keys then of binding and losing. Yea, (that which cuts the throat of your supreme head) h In magist sent. lib 4. dist. 19 art. 1. Scot, i In 4. Sent. dist. 24. quaest. 3. art. 2. Thomas, and k Summ. Theologic. part. 4. quaest. 20. Membr. 5. & 6. Alexander, affirm the same, that I: namely, that the keys promised to Peter in the sixteenth of Matthew, were given to the Apostles in the twentieth of john. And these are accounted the chiefest of your Schoolmen, and so esteemed amongst you, that the 1 Lombard●●. first of them is called the Master of the sentences; 2 Alexander. the next, the Doctor irrefragable; 3 Thomas. the third, the Doctor Angelical; 4 Scotus. the fourth and last, the Subtle Doctor. What the rest of the black guard judge of the matter, I have not inquired. But it is likely they wear their Master's liveries: chief, sith Scot & Thomas do not square about it. Which I think the rather, because D. Stapleton, though boasting that all the Schoolmen are of his side, yet nameth not one: whereas he useth not to spare his margin for quotations, when they (whom he allegeth) do speak or seem to speak for him. Belike the Queen must lose her right, where there is nothing to be had. Hart. You need not find fault that he quoteth not the names of the Schoolmen to prove his exposition: when he proveth it by that which you like better, even by conference of scripture. Rainoldes. By conference of other plainer places of scripture? Hart. No. But by a word of the same text, 3 Illud, Et quod. cunque ligaveris, conjunctive addit. even [and] the conjunction: which, seeing that it coupleth things distinct and different, in the former members, and I say to thee, and upon this peter, and the gates of hell, and to thee will I give the keys; therefore to bind and lose must differ from the keys, because the last clause is knit with [and] unto the rest, and whatsoever thou shalt bind. Rainoldes. And did not he (think you) go about to show and prove by this example, that conference of scripture is but a bad means to come unto the right sense of the scripture? Doubtless such a conference, as this (at which he fumbleth) is not the wisest way to find it. But, I know not how, when he meddleth with scripture, he seemeth half amazed, as it were a creature in a strange element. For neither he remembreth l Staple● 〈◊〉 doctr. li. 〈…〉 his own exception against us, that in the same sentence one word hath sundry senses often: nor marketh that a conjunction is used as properly to couple together agreeing things as different, m jer. 〈…〉 17. 〈…〉 and both (as here) in one place: nor considereth that things may differ, each from other, and yet be expounded each of them by other, as the cause by the effects, the whole by the parts: nor weigheth (the point in question) that although in Matthew the words of Christ to Peter did differ in meaning as much as he would have them, yet Christ by his general commission in john might perform jointly to all the Apostles that which he promised to him. And this (to put the matter out of all controversy, because it is the issue between you and us) the very words of the commission, delivered in the scriptures, expounded by the Fathers, observed by the Schoolmen, do convince so forcibly: that n Rob. Bellarmin. prae lect. Romae, Contro●●r. 4. qu●st. ●. De summo Po●ti. the jesuit (whom I named) the Pope's own professor, & most earnest proctor of the Pope's supremacy, was feign to seek other shifts whereby to help it, but this he could not choose but grant. For having taught that the keys promised to Peter were only two, of order, and of jurisdiction: he declared that Christ did give them both to his Apostles: the key of jurisdiction over all the world, in that he said to them, As my Father sent me, so do I send you, which cyril and Chrysostom note upon it; the key of order in the words that immediately follow, Receive the holy Ghost, whose sins soever ye remit, they are remitted to them, whose sins soever ye retain, they are retained. Or, if D. Stapleton love himself so well, that neither Scriptures, nor Fathers, nor Schoolmen, nor jesuits, can make him to acknowledge his own oversight: let him hear a witness who can do more with him, against whom there lieth no exception for him, unless it be that of the law, o L. in testimon. Dig. De testibus. They who waver against the credit of their own testimony, are not to be heard. This witness, is himself: who, remembering not the proverb that a liar must be mindful, p Staplet. princip. doctrine. li. 6. 〈◊〉 7. doth afterward affirm, that all the Apostles were sent with full power to begin the church, by those words of Christ, As my Father sent me, so do I send you: and that they all were therein equal unto Peter. Hart. So: he saith that full power was given them by those words, As my Father sent me: but, that the words which follow contain a part thereof only, Whose sins soever ye remit: as again he mentioneth in that very place. Now, these two sayings agree well together: that it is given, by the one; & by the other it is not. Wherefore yourself offend in that you touch him, when you do touch him as a liar. A common fault with Protestants, in dealing against us: which argueth your church of what brood it is. q joh. 8.44. The Devil is a liar: and the father thereof. Rainoldes. If any man of our profession be stained with this filth: we wish him and exhort him to cleanse himself of it, lest the name of God, be (through his default) blasphemed among the Gentiles. But you do us injury to condemn our church for the offence of some in it. For, r Rom. ●. 6. all they are not Israel, which are of Israel: and jacobs' sons, s Gen. 35. ●● Reuben, did commit incest, t Gen. 34.23. Simeon and Levi, murder; yet the house of jacob was the church of God. If myself have done your Doctor any wrong, in touching him, as a liar: it was an error, not a crime; not of wilfulness, but oversight. And such an oversight, for which he rather oweth thanks to me, who touch him: then to you, who clear him. For I, who do touch him, touch him with a rod: but you, who do clear him, whip him with scorpions. Hart. What mean you by that? Rainoldes. You charge him with a capital crime (as I may term it,) to clear him of a lesser. He followeth not the Devil in lying, you say. But you grant, he followeth him in that is worse: even in the suppressing of the holy scripture to seduce the reader. For, as the Deui●●▪ tempting Christ to cast himself down from the pinnacle, alleged, u Nat. 4.6. it is written, He will give his Angels charge over thee; omitted, x Psal ●1. 11. that they shall keep thee in all thy ways, because that made against him, the ways, (to which he tempted) being none of Christ's ways: in like sort the Doctor tempting us to fall down before the Pope, when he alleged y joh. 20. 2●. whose sins soever ye remit, as giving less to the Apostles than was promised to Peter; he omitted, z joh. ●0. ●1. As my father sent me, so I send you, whereby they all have full power, the same that Peter had. Neither yet contenting himself with this treachery: he proceedeth farther. And whereas a 2. 〈◊〉. 18. 1● the scripture saith of Eliakim, that he was the steward of the kings house▪ the Doctor affirmeth he was 6 the high priest: that seeing the key of David's house was given him, and his key therein was a figure of Christ's, and Christ did promise keys to Peter: the simple reader might conceive (by this allusion) that, as Eliakim was the high priest in the old Testament, so Peter should be in the new: the one as a figure, the other, as lieutenant of Christ, the true high priest. Hart. What moved D. Stapleton to say that Eliakim was high priest, I know not. I do not think he would have said it, unless he had had good reason to avouch it. And I am persuaded, that if he knew that, and other things, which you find fault with: what soever he hath written, he would make it good. Rainoldes. I wish with all my hart, he would. For than he should repent, and amend his errors: the only way to make that good, which is evil. But thus you may see (by his own confession) that Christ gave the keys to all the Apostles which he promised to Peter. For seeing by the keys is signified the full power, and the full power was given to them all: it followeth that the keys were given to them all. How much the more idle is that fansifull tale which you told out of him, that to bind and lose, to remit & retain sins, imply a part only, or (as he termeth it) are only 4 Partiales non totales, & minores non praecipui actus ipsarum clavium. partial not total, and lesser not the chief actions of the keys: but to open and shut, wherein is implied the power correspondent fully and evenly to the keys, is the whole power, even a power most ample: 5 Tota & ado quata potestas ipsis clavibus: amplissima potestas. and so the partial lesser actions of the keys were committed by Christ to all the Apostles, 7 Qu●m soli Petro claves datoe fuerint. whereas the keys were given to Peter alone. Whereof the conclusion is so clearly false, that himself (as though he had swallowed a hot morsel which he must needs ungorge) was feign to cast it up straightway, and say the contrary. For, in that he addeth, that the full power of the keys was promised 8 Soli Petro principaliter ante & supra ●mnes alios. to Peter alone principally, before and above all the rest: he granteth (by consequent) that it was promised to the rest of the Apostles, and therefore given to them also. Hart. Yet principally to him alone. But though all of them had received the keys, even the full power, the same that he received, which nevertheless I grant not, but suppose they had: yet this doth confirm that he was their supreme head, in some respect. Rainoldes. How so? Because no greater power was given him, than was given them. Hart. No: But because * Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 7. & 15. the power which was given them, was given them by him. For, c Sermon. 3. in anniuers. die assumpt. suae. & Serm. 2. in Natali Apostolor. Petri & Pauli. so (as Leo the great writeth wisely) 1 Firmitas. quae per Christum Pet●o tribu●●ur, per Petrum Apostolis conse●tur. the strength which is given to Peter by Christ is bestowed on the Apostles by Peter. Rainoldes This Leo was too great a friend of Peter's state, as b Chap. 1. Diuis. 2. I have declared. Wherefore how great soever he were, and wrote wisely: yet must his writing give place to the word of a greater Leo: I mean of * Reu. 5.5. the Lion of the tribe of juda. For he teacheth us, not, that the Apostles, received their power by Peter, but d john 20.21 Mat. 28.18. that Peter and they received it all together immediately of Christ. Yea Paul, e Act. 9.15. though he were chosen after Christ's ascension to be an Apostle: yet was he f Gal. 1.1. an Apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by jesus Christ, and God the father which raised him from the dead. Hart. That is true which you say: but you mistake my meaning. For you seem to speak of the Apostolic power, which I grant they received immediately of Christ. But Staple●. 〈◊〉 doct. l. 6. c. 7. they had an other power beside that, to wit, a Bishoply, or Pastoral power. Wherein sith they were inferior to Peter, though equal in the Apostolic: it may be they received, though not the Apostolic, yet the Bishoply power of him. Rainoldes. Some such thing it is, that your men would say. But (to confess mine own ignorance) I do not understand what they mean by it. Which I should perhaps be ashamed off, if you (who handle it) yourselves did understand it, or gave us sense and reason of it. For, if all the power, which Bishops have, as Bishops, be the power of the keys; and the Apostles, as Apostles, had all the power of the keys committed unto them by Christ; both the which things the Scriptures prove, & you disprove not: then was there no power, which they might receive of Peter, as Bishops; and therefore they did not receive any of him, nor were inferior to him therein▪ Yet this is the very foundation of the Papacy: but laid on such sand, that the master builders who travail most in laying it, do reel (like drunken men) about it, too and fro; and strooken with a blindness, as g Gen. 19.11. the Sodomites at Lot's doo●e, they are wearied in seeking of it. Cardinal h In Summa de ecclesia lib. 2. Turrecremata, the chiefest autour of the fancy, is of this opinion, that i cap. 34. Christ brought the rest of his Apostles to bishoply dignity by Peter: even as he lead his people through the wilderness, by the hand of Moses & Aaron. k cap. 3●. For himself made Peter only, a Bishop, immediately; and Peter preferred the rest, first john, next james, than others: as the Cardinal guesseth by probabilities of dreams, some in theCanon law, some of his own brain. l Pro epist. decreralibus Pon●ificum lib. 2. cap. ●1. Turrian the jesuit, (a man, with whom such dreams commonly are oracles) though he allow Peter to be the father of the Apostles, yet thinking this manner of fathering him to be absurd, he saith that the Apostles were all ordained Bishops, a cap. 2. by the laying (as it were) of the fiery tongues upon them, when they received the holy Ghost. And this he proveth by S. jerom, S. Denys, and other Fathers. Of whose opinion it ensueth, that, granting the Apostles were ordained Bishops, as in a general sense, (in which their charge is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Act. 1.20. a bishoply charge) they were: yet they were ordained of God immediately, as well as Peter was, and not of God by Peter. D. Stapleton, uncertain how to bear himself between these two opinions, the later being truer, the former safer for the Pope: he faltereth in his speech, as though (according to the proverb) he had a wolf by the ears, whom neither he durst let go out of his hands, nor hold, for fear of danger. For of the one side he is loath to grant the truth, lest it should prejudice the title of the Pope: yet loath of the other side to deny it also, because * Mat. 21.26. he feareth the people. m Staplet. princ. doct. l. 6 c. 1. First therefore he saith, that the keys (which signify the full power of government ecclesiastical) were given to Peter only. Then, he confesseth, n cap. 7. that all the Apostles were sent by Christ, with full power, yea with power most full, and equal unto Peter's power. From hence he turneth back, and taketh up his old song, o cap. 8. that Christ gave all power ecclesiastical to Peter only, and so by him to others. Which string because it giveth a very sweet sound: p cap. 6. & 7. & 8. & 10. & 15. he harpeth on it often. Afterward, either doubting the conscience of weak Catholics, or the evil tongues of Caluinists, who favour the Apostles, and cannot hear them so debased: he saith q cap. 15. that the Apostles were sent immediately of God with full power unto all nations. Yet by and by falling again unto his giddiness, (through some pang belike of The Pope. his holiness displeasure, which might be stirred by such speeches:) he pronounceth, r cap. 15. that the spring of honour and power is derived from Peter alone to all the rest. And thus he goeth on, through the whole discourse, (both in this, and the rest of his Doctrinal Principles,) enterfeiring as it were at every other pace, and hewing hoof against hoof. But so will the Lord confound the tongues of them who do build up Babylon. Yet here, for these cuttings wherewith he gasheth himself, he thinketh that they may be healed with a distinction taken up in Cardinal Turrecrematas shop, of a twofold power, the one Apostolic, the other Bishoply: the rest of the Apostles to have been inferior to Peter in the Bishoply, though equal in the Apostolic; and all to have received the Apostolic power immediately of Christ, the rest (as namely james) their Bishoply power of Peter. But two learned Friars, Sixtus Senensis, and Franciscus Victoria (men of better reading and judgement then either he, or Turrecremata) have cast off this quirk as a rotten drug, before Stapleton took it up. s Relection. ●. de potestat. ecclesiae. Victoria, by showing out of the Scriptures, that the Apostles received all their power immediately of Christ. t Bibliothec. san. lib. 6. annot. 269. & 171. Sixtus, by declaring out of the Fathers, that in the power of Apostleship and order (so he calleth those two powers) Paul was equal to Peter, and the rest to them both. Which case he thought to be so clear, that despairing of help for the Papacy, by Peter's either Bishoply power, or Apostolic: he added thereunto a third kind of power, even the power of kingdom, therein to set Peter over the Apostles, that so the Pope too might reign over Bishops. It must be known, saith he, that Peter had a threefold power, one of the 1 Apostolatus. Apostleship, an other of 2 Ordinis. order, and the third of 3 Regni. kingdom. Touching the Apostleship, that is, the duty of teaching, and care of preaching the Gospel: Paul (as it is rightly noted by 1 In comment. ad Galat. jerom) was not inferior to Peter, because Paul was chosen to the preaching of the Gospel, not by Peter but by God, even as Peter was. Touching the power which is given in the Sacrament of order: 2 Aduersus jovinian. & ad Euagr. jerom hath said well, that all the Apostles received the keys equally; yea that they all, as Bishops, were equal in degree of priesthood & the spiritual power of that degree. But touching the power of kingdom, & that principal authority over all Bishops and teachers: thereof hath 3 Adverse. jovinian. & Luciferian. jerom said best, that Peter was chosen amongst the twelve Apostles, and made the head of all, that by his supreme authority & eminent power above the rest, the contentions of the church might be taken up, and all occasion of schisms removed. Now, if you will use this aid of kingly power to fortify the Pope with: we will try the strength thereof, u Chapt. 5. Divis. ●. when you bring it. In the mean season, for the Bishoply power which Peter is imagined to have bestowed on the Apostles, (as the Pope would on Bishops:) it was but a Cardinals fetch to serve the turn of his Lord the Pope: the learnedst of your jesuits and Friars dare not take it: your Doctor feign would have it, but toucheth it so nicely, as though he were afraid of it. If you will stand unto it, and hold it with the Cardinal: let us see your warrant; where did the Apostles receive it of Peter? At what time? In what manner? Who is a witness of it? Hart. They did not receive it. But the order was that they should have done. Rainoldes. Was that the order? Why did they break it? Hart. Christ x Singulari privilegio. Staplet. l. 6. c. 7. by singular privilege did exempt them from it. Rainoldes. Then there was a law which did bind them to it. Hart. What else? For they should have done it: though they did it not. Rainoldes. Should, that they did not? How do you prove it? Hart. Because an order must be set, which should be kept by the posterity. Rainoldes. An order? For whom? For Apostles? you y Immediaté a Deo missi. Staplet. l▪ 6. c. 13. grant that man might not ordain them. For Bishops? z Tit. 1.5.7. other men did ordain them, as rightfully as Peter did. But you had rather make this show of an answer, then say (that which you should say in truth) I cannot tell. For you deal with us, as * Cicer. pro Sex. Roscio▪ Erucius did with Roscius▪ whom when he accused, that he had killed his father, because his father purposed to disinherit him: Thou must prove, (saith Tully) that his father did purpose it. The father did purpose to disinherit his son. For what cause? I know not. Did he disinherit him? No. Who did hinder it? He did mind it. Did he mind it? Whom told he so? No body. Your answers unto me, are very like to these, but somewhat more unorderly. For to ground the Pope's supremacy on Peter: you said that the Apostles did all receive their power, at least, their bishoply power of him. You must make it manifest that they did so. All the Apostles were to receive their power of Peter. What scripture saith so? I know not. Did they receive it? No. Who did hinder it? They should have done it. Should they have done it? How prove ye it? I can not tell. I may not say of you, as Tully of Erucius, What is it else to abuse the laws and judgements and majesty of the judges to lucre and to lust, than so to accuse, and to object that, which you not only can not prove, but do not as much as endeavour to prove it. For I must bear you witness, you endeavour to prove it. But you shall do better to surcease that endeavour, unless your proofs be sounder, and have not only show, but also weight of truth in them. The third Chapter. The performance, which Christ is supposed to have made (of the supremacy promised,) 1 in saying to Peter, Feed my lambs, feed my sheep: 2 and, Strengthen thy brethren. With the circumstances of the points thereof, Dost thou love me? and, I have prayed for thee Peter. What, and how, they make for Peter▪ how for all. HART. The promise made to Peter hath not only show but also weight of truth to prove his supremacy. But, to satisfy you, The first Division. who think it not weighty enough of itself, I will add thereto the performance of it, and so you shall have it weight with the advantage. * Staplet. prin. doctrine. l. 6. c. 9 For, it was said to Peter in the presence of three Apostles, james, john, and Thomas, by our Saviour Christ, 1 Eo etiam m●mento. even at the very moment when he would now ascend up unto his father, and therefore either then or never make his vicar: a joh. 21.15, 17. Pasce agnos meos, pasce oves meas; Feed my lambs, feed my sheep. Rainoldes. Not, at the very moment. That, is the advantage (I ween) which you will add to make up the weight: as some add eare-wax to light angels. But the words were spoken: what do you gather of them? Hart. Christ, in those words, did truly perform the promise of the keys which he had made to Peter. But Christ gave him commission to feed his whole flock, without exception of any. Therefore he made him supreme head of the Apostles. Rainoldes. This reason doth seem to be sick of the palsy. The sinews of it have no strength. Hart. Why so? Rainoldes. Because in the charge of feeding sheep and lambs, neither was the commission given unto Peter: and if it were, yet no more was committed to him then to the rest of the Apostles: and if more, yet not so much, as should make him their supreme head. Hart. If you prove the second of these three points: the other two are superfluous. Rainoldes. They are so. But you shall have weight with advantage, to overwaigh your weight to us ward. And, for the first: I have already showed, that the commission which Christ gave to Peter, he had given it him b 〈◊〉. 20.21. before, when he said, As my father sent me: so do I send you. Receive the holy Ghost. Whose sins soever ye remit, they are remitted to them: whose sins soever ye retain, they are retained. Hart. But Christ gave him not so much at that time, as he had promised him. Wherefore, part of his promise being performed then, part was performed after: then, as much as he had jointly with the Apostles; after, that he had over them. Rainoldes. This is your bulwark of Peter's supremacy: but it is builded on a lie. For all that Christ had promised him, was implied in that he had said, c Matt. 16.19. To thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Was it not? Hart. It was so: what then? Rainoldes. But in this commission (sending him with full authority and power) he gave him all the keys of the kingdom of heaven. In this commission therefore he gave him all that he had promised. Hart. I deny that he gave him all the keys in this commission. Rainoldes. I prove it. All the keys, (as it hath appeared by * Chapt. 2. Diuis. 3. your own confession) are only too, the key of knowledge and of power: or rather both of power, by Thomas of Aquines' judgement, whom you rather follow. But Christ gave him both those in this commission: d joh. 20.21. As my Father sent me, so do I send you; Receive the holy Ghost. Wherefore in this commission he gave him all the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever keys he gave him in this, he gave the same to all the rest of the Apostles. He gave as much authority therefore to them all: as he gave to Peter. But that is the next point. Hart. Yet they received c Act. 2.1. afterward the holy Ghost from heaven in the day of Pentecost. And therefore they received not their whole commission of Christ at this time: they waited for a part of it. Rainoldes. Yes: it was a part of their commission so to wait. For (as it is further declared by S. Luke) when f Luc. 24. ver. 45. their understanding was opened by Christ that they might understand the scriptures: he commanded them to g ver. 49. stay in jerusalem, until they were endued with power from an high. A King who putteth men in commission of peace, doth give them authority to execute that charge by the words of his commission. If they perhaps have not such wealth as is requisite for justices of peace to discharge their duty; and the King will give them lands by such a day, thereby to furnish them unto it: they receive by their lands, not authority, which they had; but ability which they wanted: and the better they are landed, the more are they enabled, but not the more authorized to execute their duty. Christ, the King of Kings, did put his Apostles in h Rom. 10.15. 2. Cor. 5.20. the commission of peace: of heavenly peace, not earthly; not bodily, but spiritual; not temporal, but eternal. Their authority they received by the words of his commission. But the discharge of the duty required great treasures of the holy Ghost. Whereof he gave them some i joh. 20.22. then; more in the k Act. 2.3. fiery tongues from heaven; more l Act. 10.11. & 11.18. as the church's state required; and these, m Luc. 19.16. well occupied, gained more: with the increase whereof their ability still increased; their authority not so, which all was given them at once. Hart. But a King, for better trial of his justices, may commit some lesser authority first unto them, and afterward greater. Rainoldes. n Matt. 10.5. So did Christ to his Apostles. But having made trial of them in the lesser, he called them by this commission to the greater: nay, to the greatest, than which he had no greater for them. Hart. Not within the limits perhaps of their commission: yet he might enlarge them, and give them greater limits. Rainoldes. But Christ in this commission had given them authority through all his dominion, not through a shire only. For he sent them o Marc. 16.15. Luc. 24.47. to all nations. Hart. And what, if I grant, that Christ in this commission gave all that power to Peter, which he had promised him, & was to give unto him? Rainoldes. If he gave him all that power in this commission: no part thereof remained to be given in any other. If no part to be given: then was there no further power given to him by those words of Christ, Feed my lambs, feed my sheep. If no further power were given him thereby, the bulwark of your Papacy is builded on a fancy. Hart. Then belike our Saviour spoke to no purpose, when he said to Peter, p joh. 21. ver. 15 1●. & 17. Dost thou love me? Feed my lambs. Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep. Rainoldes. God forbidden. To great purpose: though not to yours. For he giveth him therein a commandment, though not a commission. As if the queens Majesty, having made already by letters of commission some justices in the North, & one perhaps amongst them, of whose faithful heart she were persuaded well, yet, that had showed himself not of the trustiest in time of the rebellion, she should say unto him (to stir in him a lively regard of his duty,) Do you love us? Have care of our poor subjects: Do you love us? Have care of our good people. Which charge and commandment Christ might give a great deal better to Peter, than the Queen to any justice in the North: because she knoweth not whither any new Bull be coming from Rome, or new rebellion be toward. But he knew that Peter should be in greater danger, than he was when he fled, and denied his Master. Whereof, he forewarneth him (strait upon the giving him of this commandment) and that, with earnest * Verily, verily I say unto thee. words of great asseveration, as in a matter of weight: telling him, q joh. 21.18. that he should die a grievous death for his profession of the faith and feeding of the flock of Christ. So that, to arm him against that fear of the flesh, which before had made him to betray his duty, when he had less cause to fear: Christ having made the iron hot, as it were, by ask him, Dost thou love me? striketh it, to make it a fit instrument to build with, & so commandeth, Feed my flock; yea though the work be painful, and will cost thee dear: for it shall bring thee to thy death. So, he committeth not a new charge to Peter, but willeth him to look to that, which he had committed, and flee not from it for any danger. As if a wise shipmaster, seeing a dangerous storm at hand, should command his mariners whom he had well deserved of, that, if they love him, they look unto their tackelings. Hart. Well. If it were (perhaps) not a commission, but a commandment: yet was it a commandment to discharge that duty, wherewith he was put in trust by commission. Rainoldes. I grant. What infer you? Hart. Then Peter had commission to feed the lambs and sheep of Christ. Rainoldes. Who doth deny it? For r joh. 20.21. he had the same commission from Christ, that s Luc. 4.18. Christ from God his Father, to preach the Gospel to the poor, to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised and preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Which is, in other words, to feed the lambs and sheep of Christ. For Christ by a similitude, is named the t 1. Pet. 5. ver. 4. chief shepherd: his church, and chosen servants, u ver. 2. a flock of sheep and lambs; whereof he gave a principal charge to his Apostles, that they should feed it. Wherefore the commandment given unto Peter to feed his sheep and lambs: importeth the commission which before was given him, when Christ sent him, as God sent Christ. But in this commission the Apostles all were equal unto Peter. They were equal therefore to him in charge of feeding the sheep and lambs of Christ. And so the second point which I had to prove (the very deaths-wound of your supremacy) is proved. Hart. Proved? How proved? Rainoldes. As clearly, as the Sun doth shine at noon day. For, to send the Apostles, as God the Father sent Christ, is to give them charge to feed his sheep and lambs. But Christ sent the Apostles, as God the Father sent him. Therefore he gave them charge to feed his sheep & lambs. Now, this is the greatest power, that can be showed, was given Peter by Christ. Wherefore in the greatest power, that Christ gave him, the rest of the Apostles all were his equals. If you be loath herein to believe the Scripture: yet believe the Pope, and x Pope Anacletus▪ Dist. 〈◊〉. c. in no●●●estamento. an ancient Pope (unless the Canon law lie,) The rest of the Apostles received honour and power in equal fellowship with Peter. Hart. It is true that the Apostles were equal to Peter: but in respect of their Apostleship, not of their Pastoral charge. Rainoldes. This answer of yours, hath a distinction, but not a difference. It is the same fellow, but in an other gown, whom ( y Chapter 2. Division 3●. a little rather) I showed to be a bankrupt: and now he cometh forth again in new apparel, like an honest and wealthy Citizen. Hart Why say you so? Rainoldes. Because you did distinguish the Bishoply power of the Apostles, from their power Apostolic: as here (with other words) you do their Apostleship from their Pastoral charge. Whereas in deed the pastoral charge of the Apostles is nothing else but their Apostleship: and hath no more difference than the other had. For the name of Pastor is used in two senses, a special, and a general. In the special, to note a kind of function distinct from the Apostles, ( z Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 6. c. 7. & 15. your Doctor granteth it,) and so Apostles are not Pastors: as when it is said, a Ephes. 4.11. some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors and teachers. In the general, to signify the common charge of all such, as do teach the word and feed the flock of God: in which respect b joh. 10.11. Christ himself is called a Pastor. Wherefore sith Apostles are not Pastors by the former sense; by the later, whosoever are equal in the Apostleship, must needs consequently be equal in the Pastorship too: your distinction, that they were equal in the one not in the other, hath no more reason, than an other of c Princ doctrine. l. 6. c. 7. Petro d●ta est potestas p●aeceptiua, seu regiminis: Apostolis autem tantum exequ●tiua, seu gubernationis. D. Stapletons', who saith, that they were equal in power of government, but not of regiment. Hart. You deprave his words. For he saith that this is the greatest difference between Peter and the rest of the Apostles, that Christ gave to Peter the power of regiment, or to command: to the Apostles only the power of government, or to execute: because in government of the church Peter must prescribe, what should be done, and they must execute it. Rainoldes. I deprave them not, unless he speak sottishly, he knoweth not himself what. For his drift is, to prove, that the Apostles all had equal power given them by Christ, but with a threefold difference: of which this is one, that they had equal power (forsooth) to do and execute all things that appertain to the building of the Church; but so, that Peter had the power of regiment, to command, the rest of the Apostles the power of government, to execute. Which is as ridiculous, as if a man would say, that the Queen's Majesty and the Sheriffs of London have equal power both: yet with a difference, to wit, that her Majesty hath the power of regiment, that is, to command, when a traitor shall suffer, and the Sheriffs the power of government, that is, to execute that which she commandeth. If you should preach thus in London: our Londoners would smile at it. I think that this heresy hath made our wits dull. Your Catholic distinctions are so sharp and subtle, that we cannot conceive them. Hart. You may flout as well, if you list, at S. Gregory: who though he use not the words of this distinction, yet he hath the sense of it: saying, d Grego. Registr. lib. 4. epist. 38. that Andrew, james, and john were heads of several congregations, and all, members of the Church, under one head Peter. Rainoldes. If I should touch Gregory for this, I should do him wrong: as great wrong almost, as your e lib. 6. cap. 7. Doctor doth, who allegeth it out of Gregory. For though he were himself a Bishop of Rome, and a well-willer of S. Peter's: yet in that epistle (whence those words are cited) he calleth Christ 1 Caput universalis ecclesiae. the head of the universal church: Peter, 2 Primum membrum sanctae & universalis ecclesiae. the chiefest member; and others, members of it also. D. Stapleton thinking it a small thing, that Peter should be counted as the chiefest member, unless he be the head too, hath (upon mention of the one head) cogged in the name of Peter, * S. Gregory saith, sub v●o capite omnes membra sunt ecclesiae. D. Stapleton citeth it, sub uno capite Petro omnes membra ecclesiae. like a cunning gamester to help a die at a need. Alas a man must enterprise somewhat in such cases. For, you were all undone, if this game should be lost. Hart. I marvel, that you blush not to use such uncivil speeches, and taunts, against D. Stapleton, a man of great learning even in your own judgement. Rainoldes. A man not of so great learning, as reading, if you will take my judgement in it. Yet I wish (for his own sake) that his learning were as good, as it is great. But for the uncivil speeches, and taunts, which I use against him; weigh the occasions and circumstances of them. If he have not deserved as f Mat. 23.13. Luke. 11. 4●. the Scribes and Pharises: let me be rebuked when I touch him, as Christ them. But you deal herein as g Cic. pro ●lacco. Tully reporteth that Athenagoras did: of his fault he said nothing, he complained of his punishment. It is lawful for D. Stapleton to take up me with his taunts of h Princip. doctr. lib. 4. cap. 1●. Caluinist, Anglocaluinist, i lib. 13. cap. 9 Puritan, and that undeservedly. But if I reprove on just cause, with plain terms, his cogging, corrupting, belying, slandering, abusing both of God and men: it is a heinous matter and to be blushed at. Let them blush, M. Hart, * Reu. 22.15. who love or make lies, either by committing such shameful tricks of falsehood, or by partaking with them. It is no shame for me to note them, and reprove them. Hart. Why? Are you sure that there is no copy of S. Gregory's works, which hath the name of Peter inserted in that place. Rainoldes. I think that none hath: I am sure that none should have. For, in f Gregor. Registr. l. 4. epist. 36. an other epistle of the same argument, when he had said that all Christians * Soli uni capiti coherent, videlicet Christo. do cleave to only one head, he addeth, Imeane, to Christ: and having (in this same epistle) put that difference between Christ and Peter, that Peter is a member, Christ the head of the church, he showeth manifestly whom he meant by head. A thing so apparent, that g De concordant. catholic. lib. 2. cap. 34. Cardinal Cusanus doth cite those words of Gregory * Sub uno capi●e Cristo omnes membra. with Christ's name inserted: either as having read them so in some copy, or to open the meaning of them. How much the more shameful is Stapletons' dealing, who fosteth in [Peter:] to set (by that conveyance) the Pope in Christ's room. But you were best to go forward with the scriptures: and then (when you have found nothing in them,) come to the Fathers after. Hart. You are very peremptory still in your speeches. I will find in them as much for the substance as I have affirmed▪ For, howsoever the words of Pastoral charge, and the Apostleship; the power of regiment, and government, agree with my meaning: my meaning, (I am sure) agreeth with the scriptures, and standeth with good reason. Rainoldes. Then you shall do well hereafter to refrain from such foggy distinctions, devised to choke the blind, (who eat many a fly:) and express your meaning in clear and plain words: lest we suspect, that you fancy darkness more than light. Hart. This is my meaning, that Peter had authority over the Apostles to feed them, to rule them, to be a Pastor of them: which the rest of the Apostles had neither over him nor one over an other. Rainoldes. So. Now make proof of it. Hart. Christ did say to Peter: h joh. 21.17. Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep. Whereof thus I reason. Christ did charge Peter to feed his sheep, all; even all his sheep, without exception. But the Apostles were sheep of Christ. Therefore he had the charge of feeding them also. Rainoldes. Christ said to the Apostles, i Marc. 16.15. Go ye into all the world▪ and preach the Gospel to every creature. Whereof thus I reason. Christ did charge his Apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature, to every one without exception. But Peter was a creature. Therefore they had the charge of preaching to him also. Now, if I would play with words as your men do: I could show that this reason must overmaster yours in the plain field. For Christ said not to Peter, feed all my sheep: but he said to the Apostles, preach to every creature. Hart. But you should consider * Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca 10. that Christ giving that commandment to Peter, gave it with a difference between the sheep and the lambs, as k Commentar. in Luc. lib. 10. S. Ambrose hath noted well, (set me down, I pray, his own words in Latin:) tertiò Dominus interrogavit: & noniam agnos, ut primò, quodam lact pascendos; nec oviculas, ut secundò; sed oves pascere iubetur, perfectiores ut perfectior gubernaret. That is to say, When the Lord had asked Peter the third time, Dost thou love me? he is commanded now to feed, not the lambs, as at the first time, who must be fed with certain milk; not the little sheep as the second time; but to feed the sheep, that he (a man more perfect) might govern the more perfect. So that the whole flock of Christ was committed to Peter to be fed, as well the small as the great; both the lay men, who, as lambs, are fed themselves, and feed not others; & the Priests and Clergy, who, as sheep, do feed the lambs, but are fed of the shepherd. Rainoldes. The lambs and the sheep do signify two kinds of Christians: the one younger and tenderer, which needeth to be taught the first principles of religion, as it were l Hebr. 5.12. to be fed with milk: the other riper and elder, fit to learn the deeper mysteries of faith, to be fed with strong meat. This S. Ambrose noted well in the commandment that Christ gave to Peter. Though the difference, which he maketh between the second and the third, 1 Ouiculas, et oves. the little sheep and the sheep; was either an oversight in the 2 Reading perhaps 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Greek copy, or a fancy of some interpreter. Which I would not mention, but that you bid me set down his own words in Latin, as though there were some mystery in them, which yet yourselves are wont to make no account of: unless your m Robert. Bellarm. Rom. Controver 4. quaest. 3. de summo ●ont. Roman reader hath spied more in it, who saith that the text ought to be corrected, and read as Ambrose cited it. But your gloze, of the laymen to be signified by lambs, and by the sheep the Priests and Clergy: doth vary from the text, not of Christ only, but of Ambrose too. For whereas they speak of the lambs, and the sheep, both which the flock consisteth of: you interpret their words of the sheep, and the shepherds. And whereas all Pastors are bound to feed both sheep and lambs: you make as though the rest must feed none but lambs, and all the sheep were peter's. From dreaming whereof S. Ambrose was so far, that n De dignit. sacerdot. cap. 2. Eas cum illo nos suscepimus omnes. he saith of the sheep which Christ commanded to be fed: Peter did not only receive the charge of them, but himself and all Bishops received it with Peter. Wherefore, you should consider, that in Christ's commission unto the Apostles they are not considered as sheep, but as shepherds: and therefore not themselves to be fed of any, but all to feed others. So, when they abode together in jerusalem: they said the church in common (with, o Act. 2. ●2. the doctrine of the Apostles) not Peter them, and they the rest. And when they went thence into other countries: they went not as sheep with Peter their shepherd, but as several shepherds to sheep of all nations. Hart. Be it so: that Christ spoke (in his commission) to them, as to shepherds. Yet were they also sheep of the flock of Christ. And therefore he might well appoint a shepherd over them. Rainoldes. And was not Peter also a sheep of Christ's flock? And must▪ not our Saviour appoint by this reason, a shepherd over him also? For, if all sheep need it: why not S. Peter? If some need it not: why the Apostles? But, it is true, that, as they were sheep, so needed they sometimes to be fed, the best of them: and this did Christ provide for, though not with your policy; not by setting one as Pastor over all, but by giving charge of every one to other. For as S. Paul said to the Elders of Ephesus, p Act. 20. 2●. Take heed unto yourselves and to all the flock, charging them with care not of their flock only, but of themselves too, all of all, and each of other: in like sort the Apostles who had charge of all in that they were shepherds, were to be looked too, in that they were sheep, to be admonished, taught, fed, not every one of Peter, but every one of other, yea even Peter also himself, if need required. Hereof their practice is a proof. For q Gal. 2.14. when Peter went not with a right foot to the truth of the Gospel: S. Paul reproved him openly before all men for it. But to reprove him was to feed him. Therefore S. Paul did feed S. Peter. Hart. * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 14. S. Paul reproved him, not by authority, but of courtesy: and Peter yielded to it, not of duty, but of modesty. As now any Bishop may reprove the Pope: and he will hearken to it patiently, and mildly; and yet impair not his supremacy. Rainoldes. I acknowledge a distinction of the Roman style: * Sacrar. ceremon. eccles. Romanae, l. 3. sect. 1. c. quod Romanus Pontifex nemini reverentiam facit. which (in the book of Ceremonies of the church of Rome, in the chapter, that the Pope doth do reverence to no man) saith, that notwithstanding the majesty and solemnity, which he useth to highest states in entertaining of them: yet Popes are accustomed (when they are not in their pontificals) to 1 Aliquantulum caput inclinare. bow their head a little as it were rendering reverence to Cardinals 2 Maximis principibus. and to mighty Princes, when they come privately and do reverence unto him. 3 & hoc non ex officio, sed ex laudabili humanitate. Marry this, not of duty: but of laudable courtesy. The Pope showed not you this courtesy, M. Hart, when he admitted you to kiss his holiness foot: it was not for his state to do it. Yet hath he so bewitched your senses therewith, that you (to render him not duty, but courtesy) forget both courtesy, and duty, to Paul the Apostle, the chosen instrument of God, and penman of his holy spirit. For S. Paul mentioneth his reproof purposely, to prove, that he was Peter's equal in authority: against the false Apostles, who sought to discredit the doctrine which he taught, by deba●ing him and setting others far above him. You say that he reproved Peter, of courtesy, and not by authority. Whereby (mark it well) you say in effect, that he made a foolish reason to prove a false conclusion. And, if he were inferior to Peter in authority, as he was by your answer: what meant he to say that s 2. Cor. 11.5. he accounted himself * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. nothing inferior to the very chief Apostles. You add that any Bishop may so reprove the Pope. Your t Thom. Aquin. in 4. Sent. distinct. 19 quaest. 2. art. 2. Thomas saith, no. For he writeth that this fact (of Paul reproving Peter) exceedeth the measure of brotherly correction which subjects own unto their prelate's, because he did it u Gal. ●. 14. before the multitude. Though otherwise himself (to uphold the Papacy) useth x Paulus fuit par Petro in executione autoritatis, no● autoritate regiminis. in epi. ad Galat. cap. 2. le●t. 3. such shifts, as you do: & y In secunda secundae quaest. 33. art. 4. maketh his account of Paul as the subject, and Peter as the prelate, according to the z 2. q. 7. c. Testes. Canon law. But his own sentence may serve for an axe to behead your common error. For either S. Paul in so reproving Peter did transgress his duty; or he was his equal in authority, not his subject. But, to say the former, is a blasphemous speech of a Hieron. pro●●m. commentar. in epist. ad Gala●. & in cap. 2. Porphyry. The latter therefore is true. And so your answer falleth of authority and courtesy. Hart. I grant that b Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 14. S. Paul was equal in authority to Peter, in some sort. Yet this is a notable difference between them, and well worth the marking, that S. Paul was the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles: but Peter the Apostle both of Gentiles and of jews. Which (because we love not to speak without Doctors) you may read in S. Ambrose, in his Commentaries on this place, Ambros. in comment. epist. ad Galat. * Gal. 2.8. He that wrought by Peter in the Apostleship of circumcision, wrought by me also towards the Gentiles. He nameth Peter alone (saith he) and compareth him unto himself, because he had received the primacy to build the Church; that himself likewise is chosen to have the primacy of building the Churches of the Gentiles. Yet so, that Peter preached to the Gentiles also. These are S. Ambrose his words. Rainoldes. Have you read these words yourself in S. Ambrose: or do you take them up on credit? Hart. What if myself have read them? Rainoldes. Then shall I think worse of you, than I have done. For I have thought you to err of simplicity. But I smell somewhat else here. Hart. In deed, I read them not myself, in S. Ambrose, but in D. c Princip. doct. lib. 6. cap. 14. Stapleton: who citeth them as I do. Rainoldes. Then you may learn the precept of * 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. a witty Poet; Be sober and distrustful: these are the joints of wisdom. For this which you have taken of D. Stapletons' credit, is clipped: foully clipped. If he should deal so with the Princes coin: I know what judgement he should have. The words of Ambrose are, Ita tamen ut & Petrus gentibus praedicaret, si causa fuisset, & Paulus judaeis: yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also, if it were needful, and Paul to the jews. D. Stapleton citeth them, Ita tamen, ut & Pe●rus gentibus praedicaret. Haec ille. Yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also. Thus saith Ambrose. See you not, how handsomely he hath clipped-of the last words of Ambrose, [& Paulus judaeis, and Paul to the jews:] to prove, that Paul might not preach unto the jews, as Peter might unto the Gentiles? Yet this is D. Stapleton, whose * Principior. 〈◊〉 dei doctrina●●● demonstratio methodica: pe● controu●rs. 7. in libris 12. tradita. Treatise of the Church some of our English Students and young seduced gentlemen think to be a treasure of great truth and wisdom. But God will make the falsehood and folly thereof evident to all men at his good time. For this present point, that Paul was an Apostle and teacher of the jews and the Gentiles both, as well as Peter was, and therefore not inferior to him in this respect: the Scripture is so clear, that no mist of Stapletons', though it were as thick as the darkness of Egypt, can take away the light of it. The words of Christ prove it, spoken (touching Paul) unto Ananias: d Act. 9.15. He is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel. The commission by Ananias sent unto Paul: e Act. 22.14. The God of our Fathers hath appointed thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just one, and hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness, unto all men, of the things which thou hast seen and heard. Paul's obedience to his calling, and performance of his duty: f Act. 9 ver. 20. He preached Christ in the Synagogues, g ver. 2●. he confounded the jews, h ver. 29. he spoke and disputed with the * Not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, Gentiles borne, converted to the jewish faith and circumcised: which are called proselytes. Act. 2.10. &. 13.43. Grecians, (jews by religion, although not by parentage:) to be short, i Act. 13. ver. 2. when he was sent by special commission of the holy Ghost, for the work whereunto God had called him and Barnabas: k ver. 5. & 14. they preached the word of God in the Synagogues of the jews through divers cities and countries: until that l ver. 45. when the jews did stubbornly resist the truth which they preached, they said boldly to them, It was necessary that the word of God should have been first spoken unto you: but seeing you put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Wherefore as h Act. 8.25. & 10 28. Peter preached the Gospel both to jews and Gentiles: so did also Paul. As i Act. 15.7. God did choose Peter, that the Gentiles by his mouth should hear the word of the Gospel: so did he choose Paul. Hart. Why doth Paul then call himself k Rom. 11.13. 1. Tim. 2.7. 2. Tim. 1.11. the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles: and that in sundry places? Rainoldes. Because that when he and Peter perceived, that God did bless the labours of the one of them amongst the jews chief, of the other amongst the Gentiles: they agreed together and l Gal. 2.9. gave the right hands of fellowship each to other, that Paul should preach unto the Gentiles, & Peter to the jews: not so, but that either (if occasion served) might and did preach to either, as m Comment. in epist. ad Gal. cap. 2. Ambrose noted well, and n Act 28.17.30. it is written of Paul namely: but that they should specially teach, the one, the jews; the other, the Gentiles, as o Rom. 1.13. 1. Pet. 1.1. and so forth the rest. their epistles show they did. Thus, if you regard that, which they did chief: Peter was an Apostle and teacher of the jews, Paul of the Gentiles. If that which they might do, and did by occasion: they were the Apostles and teachers, both of both, and so no difference between them. Hart. We grant * Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca 14. that there was no difference between them, in the office of the Apostleship: for therein was Paul equal unto Peter. Rainoldes. He that granteth this, would see, if he had eyes, that he must grant the other, which he hath denied. For, if equal in the office of the Apostleship: then equal in the charge of preaching to all nations. And if in the charge of preaching to all nations; then both to jews and Gentiles. Hart. It is true: to both. But so, that S. Peter was chief Apostle to them both, and the supreme head to rule as well S. Paul, as the rest of the Apostles. Rainoldes. I have proved that Peter had no such headship over them. You barely say the contrary, and repeat it still. This is a fault in reasoning, condemned of the p Aristot. in Reprehends. Sophist. Logicians by the name of begging that which is in controversy. I pray use it not: but either prove that you say, or hold your peace and cease to say it. Hart. I will prove it * Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca 1●. by the circumstances of the words of Christ q joh. 21. ver. 15.16. & 17. saying unto Peter, Dost thou love me more than these? Feed my lambs. Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep. Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep. Wherein, sundry principal points are to be noted. First, he requireth of him an open profession and testimony of his love, to this intent that he may put him in trust with his flock. Secondly, he requireth not only that he love him, but also that he love him more than the rest: that to him as loving him more than the rest, he may give power above the rest. Thirdly, he asketh him thrice, if he love him; and the former times with the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the last with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which noteth fervent love. With the which word also Peter had answered him still. Fourthly, he saith unto him thrice also, feed. And, to pass over the sheep and the lambs, whereof I spoke before; fifthly, the first charge of feeding the lambs, & the last of the sheep are uttered with the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, feed, the second of the sheep, hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉▪ that is, rule: to show that the lambs, even laymen (as I said) are only to be fed; but the sheep, I mean, Bishops and Pastors, are both to be fed and to be ruled of Peter. Sixtly the word, to feed, hath a great force, and signifieth a power most full and absolute: as the which implieth all other actions of ecclesiastical regiment. For they are all directed to the food of souls. There are observed more such notes to like effect: but either not so pithy and sound as these are, or treated of already. Wherefore I content myself with these six. Which if you lay together, and mark what may be said in several for each of them: you have enough to prove a great worthiness of Peter, in any man's judgement; in ours, a supremacy. Rainoldes. That which is written * Pro. 30.33. in the proverbs of Solomon, He that wringeth his nose causeth blood to come out: may be truly said of the proofs which you press out of these circumstances. The most pithy of them, if any of them have pith, are they which touch the matter: the question, of love required; the charge enjoined, of feeding; and each of them repeated thrice. Which all in very truth, as Christ did use them to Peter, were rather a stay of his weakness, than a mark of his worthiness, much less a proof of his supremacy. For Peter had pretended greater love to Christ, then had the rest of the Apostles. In so much that when Christ had told them of their frailty, the night before his passion, r Mat. 26.31. All ye will be offended at me this night, for it is written, I will smite the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered: Peter answering said unto him, though all should be offended at thee, yet will I never be offended. Whereto when Christ replied, verily I say unto thee, this night before the cock crow, thou wilt deny me thrice: Peter answered him again, though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. This promise, as it was made by all the Apostles, but chiefly by Peter: so was it broken by them all, but chiefly by him. For they did all forsake Christ: Peter did not only forsake him, but forswear him too. Wherefore when our Saviour after his resurrection would gather them together, to confirm them from their fear, and give them power to preach the Gospel to all Nations: he, that in comforting them all (before his passion) remembered Peter chiefly as néeding it most; Luc. 2●. 32. but I have prayed for thee: did then (in sending for them to meet him in Galilee) remember Peter namely, by the voice of his Angel, saying to the women, t Marc. 16.7. tell his disciples and Peter that he will go before you into Galilee. Peter, a disciple: yet named beside the disciples: 1 Author commentarior. Hieron. in Marc. cap. 16. Gregor. in evangelia ●omil. ●1. as who might think himself not worthy of the name of a disciple, that had denied his Master thrice. Now when they were come to him into Galilee, and had received common both comfort and commission to execute the charge whereto they were chosen: Christ admonished Peter particularly of his duty, and moved him (beside the rest) to do it faithfully; as he particularly before had betrayed it, and had behaved himself most fearfully above the rest. To encourage him therefore with assuring his conscience 2 cyril in evang. johan. l. 12. c. 64. quia Petrus Christi ●lementia maioris pe●●●tiremissionem 〈◊〉 iure ab eo m●ior repetitur dilectio. Cui enim pl●s remit●icur. plu● ama●e debet: ut ipse dicit ●li●i, Luc. ●. of the forgiveness of his sin, and strengthen him to constancy, that he offend no more s●: Christ demandeth of him whether he love him; and thereupon chargeth him, to feed his lambs and sheep. In demanding of him, dost thou love me more than these: first, he toucheth his fault, who had professed more than these, but had performed less than these. Then he showeth that it is pardoned. For u Luc. 7.47. he who loveth more, to him more is forgiven: his greater love is a token of it. In charging him to feed his lambs and his sheep: he sharpeneth his care, that now he be faithful and firm in following Christ, though he shall come to danger, yea to death thereby. Both which, 3 August. in johann. tract. 123, & de verb▪ Domin. secund. johann. Serm. 49. Ambros. comment. in Luc. l. 10. the demand and charge are thrice repeated: the demand, that Peter by his threefold answer may countervail his threefold denial of Christ: the charge, because that * Eccles. 12.11. nails the oftener they are strooken, the deeper they do pierce. x Philip. 3.1. To write the same to Christians, it grieveth not our Apostle: it is a safe thing for us. And although the truth of this exposition be very apparent by conference of Scriptures: yet, that you may take it with the better appetite, who love not to eat meat without this sauce, you may know that I find it (for the chiefest points which touch the matter nearest) in Cyril, Austin, Ambrose, and other ancient Fathers. Wherefore, your pithiest notes out of the circumstances of the text, have colour of some proof for Peter's infirmity, but nought for his Supremacy. As for the other three, which you pick out of the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and to feed: they have no pith at all, they are as bones without marrow. If this be the fruit of y The narration of the English Seminar. in Rome. the study of the tongues renewed in your Seminaries, that by show thereof you may out face the Protestants, who by help thereof have rid your filth out of the church: then your tongues will prove as good as the miracles, which z 2. Tim. 3.8. Exod. 7.11, 13.22. jannes' wrought, and jambres, to harden Pharaos' hart, by doing like as Moses did. You cast us in the teeth with a a Campians challenge in the sixth article. Bristow'S reply to Fulk. chap. 10. Dem. 41. kingdom of Grammarians: but you would raise a Popedom of them. And b De laud. ●tult●● as Erasmus saith, that Schoolmen, speaking barbarously, said, it was not meet for the majesty of divinity that it should be bound to keep the laws of Grammarians: so the Popedom of Grammarians dealing too too Pope-like in expounding of words, (as * Fuit hic nimis um Papaliter dispensatum. 2. q. 5. c. Me●n●m. In glossa. Francis. victoria relect. 4. De potest. Papae & concilii. Albert. Krantz. Saxon. lib. 5. cap. 8. Popes do full oft in dispensing with things) will not have them bound to the Grammatical sense wherein their authors use them. But if we may obtain, that justice be ministered according to the civil laws of our kingdom: then shall the poor words (which your Popedom forceth to speak for the papacy that which they never meant) be rescued from that injury. For, the Scripture showeth that, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth as fervent love as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in deed the very same, chyefe●y in S. john: who declaring the perfect and entire love, of c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 joh. 5.20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. joh. 13.36 & 10.7. God towards Christ, of d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. joh. 20.2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 joh. 19.26. & ●1, ●2. Christ towards him; one where expresseth it by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & other where by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yea by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more oft then by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. So that (if the words had any difference in sense,) it would be very likely, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rather the more significant of the two: sith it is used also e joh. 13. & 14. & 15. & through out all the new Testament. commonly to note the love which the Lord doth bear towards us and we should bear one to an other: and that in place of greatest force, as when he saith, f joh. 15.12. This is my commandment that ye 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. love one an other, as I have 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. loved you: 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. greater love than this hath no man, when a man bestoweth his life for his friends. Whereas S. john therefore uttered Christ's demand by the one word, and Peter's answer by the other: it seemeth that he used the words indifferently, as having both the same meaning. Which is proved also by the consent and judgement of the Syriake translation, that hath the g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 same word for them both. Howbeit if the words have a difference of sense: it agreeth better with the modesty of Peter to have said less, then more, of his love; chief, sith he had fallen by saying too much of it, and had by trial felt his frailty. But if he did answer, as you imagine him; Dost thou love me Peter? Lord, I love thee fervently: yet this fervent love inferreth no supremacy over the rest of the Apostles. For, what he reporteth of his own love, the same doth Christ witness of theirs, or rather more, if we would prick it up as you do; even h joh. 16.27. that his Father loveth them, because that they loved him. In both the which branches * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. that same word is used, which (by your fancy) doth signify fervent love, when it may serve the Pope's vantage. Hart. We do not rely so much on that word, as on the other two, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, but chief on the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. For although to feed (which is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) doth import much: yet to feed and rule (which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth) hath a greater force: as those places show where that word is used, i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Psal. 2.9. reve. 2.27. Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron, and, k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Matt. 2.6. Mich. 5.2. he shall rule my people Israel. Wherefore Christ committed a sovereign power to Peter in that l joh. 21. ver. 16. he said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: not only to feed but to rule and govern too. Rainoldes. Then it was not Peter's duty to rule the lambs but the sheep only. For Christ doth say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, speaking of the sheep: and m ver. 15. of the lambs, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hart. So I said. Yet that word which he useth of the lambs he useth n ver. 17. ●●b. 6. cap. 10. of the sheep also. Whereby this is showed (as I touched briefly out of ᵒ D. Stapleton) that lambs must be only meated and fed of Peter (through the common food of doctrine to be looked for from 1 Ab hoc supremo patre familias. him, as supreme father of the household, and from his See,) and they must be ruled of their next and proper Pastors whom immediately they are under: but sheep, that is to say, the greater and perfiter, Bishops themselves and Pastors, are committed to him not only to be fed with the common doctrine, but also to be ruled 2 Ab illo tanquam supreme pastorum pastore. of him more immediately as of the supreme Pastor of Pastors. Rainoldes. So your Doctor noteth (I grant,) and you touched it. But you were best recall it, or else this fine fancy of that Greek word, as it is far fetched, so will be dear bought. For it must cost the Pope half of his supremacy. Hart. Why do you say so? Rainoldes. Why? Are not Princes comprised in the name of lambs, by your judgement: as Bishops, and Pastors, in the name of sheep? Hart. They are: and what then? Rainoldes. The Pope than hath nothing to do with the ruling and governing of Princes; much less with deposing them. For Peter had commission (you say) to feed only (and not to rule) the lambs. Hart. But they must be ruled of their next Pastors, and so, by consequent, of the Pope: because their Pastors must be ruled of him, as Pastor of Pastors. Rainoldes. Nay: but the Pastors are not to be ruled by the Pope neither, if this fancy hold. For in your Latin authentical translation p joh. 21.16. Pasce agnos, for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the claws which doth answer to the Greek word hath not sheep but lambs. Whereupon q The Rhemish Testament on that place in the margin. your Rhemists also note the same as spoken of lambs, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, feed & rule. So that, howsoever he lay hold on others by that Greek word compared with your Latin text: yet his rule & government of Bishops & Pastors is shaken of thereby. And this is as much as half of his supremacy: nay all, by a consequent. For his claim lieth, first, over Bishops: and then, by means of Bishops, over the whole church. Thus while you devise by quirks of your own to underprop the Pope, you lay him on the ground: & do him more harm by crasing of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, then good by fortifying of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. For although it signify to feed, in such sort, as shepherds do their sheep, and so consequently to rule them, and guide them, in all respects as shepherds do, for the preserving of them: yet that charge of ruling belonged not to Peter alone peculiarly, but was and is common unto all shepherds. Our English tongue answereth not to the felicity of the Greek and latin in making evident proof hereof. For in the Greek words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and in the Latin pastor & pasco, the matter would be plainer. But yet in our English, a shepherd, and, to feed in that sort with ruling, are * Coniugata. yoked so together by link (as I may term it) of reason and sense, though it appear not in link and likeness of words: that as many as are called to the function of 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. shepherds and Pastors of the church, they all are bound by duty 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to feed and rule so. The proof whereof we have in Peter and Paul: who moving the Pastors (whom they call Elders) to attend their charge, i 1. Pet. 5.1. the one beseecheth them to 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. feed the flock of God which dependeth on them: k Act. 20.28. the other telleth them, that the holy Ghost hath made them overseers 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to feed the church of God; both using the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as betokening the common charge of shepherds. l Reu. 2.27. Yea Christ himself, speaking to the Angel, that is, the shepherd of the church of Thyatira, doth promise that he who overcometh and keepeth his works unto the end, shall have power given unto him over nations, and 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. he shall rule them with a rod of iron. So that even there, where you note that word importeth greatest power of beating down the wicked: Christ apply it to all his faithful servants and not to Peter only. Wherefore, if it were so that he had meant more by saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 them by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in his charge to Peter: yet he meant no more than that which belongeth to every shepherds charge for the sheep which God ordaineth him to feed. But, in truth, if your itch of wresting holy scriptures to private fancies were healed; you would rather think that S. john did utter one sense with sundry words, as in the Lords demand of Peter, Dost thou m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. love me? so in his commandment to Peter n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Feed my sheep. For the Syriake translation, which yourself alleged, to prove, that the Greek words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, though different in sound yet are one in sense, because our Saviour spoke in the Syriake tongue, and in the Syriake both are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expresseth here also the two sundry Greek words by one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as if that our Saviour had used the same word, and meant the same thing in both. Which interpretation should be of greater credit with you in this point than it was in that, because your authentical Latin translation which there dissented from it, agreeth with it here, expressing likewise both by pasce. Unless you will say that your authentical Latin doth not express fully the meaning of the Greek. Hart. A translation cannot express the force always of words in the original: as in o Prologue. in Ecclesiastic. jesu filii Sirach. Ecclesiasticus it is observed of the Hebrew. Rainoldes. You say true. How much the more were they to blame p Concil. Trident. Session. 4. who decreed that a translation should be accounted as authentical * In publicis lectionibus, disputationibus, praedicationibus, & expositionibus. in all Divinitie-exercises, and no man under any pretence to reject it. But if there had been such force and importance in the Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: your Latin translator could have expressed it easily. For q Act. 20 28. otherwhere he doth translate it 1 Regere ecclesiam Dei. to rule: and that, being spoken of meaner Pastors than Peter, even of the Bishops of Ephesus. Which bewrayeth further the seely state of your proof grounded on the word. For, if Peter were ordained supreme head because he was willed to rule the 2 After the Greek text, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. sheep or 3 After the latin translat. agnos. lambs: what headship may the Bishops of Ephesus claim, who were made overseers to rule the church of God, that is both lambs and sheep? But your last proof upon the word r Staplet. li. 6. c. 10. Obserua vim verbi pasce, quo plenissima potestas designatur. to feed which signifieth (you say) a power most full and absolute, is most out of square: and neither agreeth with yourselves, nor with truth and reason. For you said that lambs are only fed of Peter: sheep, both fed and ruled. Which is fond, if to rule be no more then to feed: fonder, if to feed imply a power most full and absolute. Beside that, to feed, is to nourish Christians with s Hebr. 5.12. 1. Cor. 3.2. milk or strong meat according to their state, as they are either lambs or sheep. Wherefore if that import the fullness of power which no man hath but one, to weet, the supreme head: how great is your cruelty to the church of Christ, who leave but one Pastor throughout all the earth to preach the word of God unto it? Or if you leave more, & grant that several Churches shall have their several Pastors after the ordinance of God: how great is your folly who granting us so many Pastors & feeders, yet say, that one alone hath the charge to feed, and that importeth a supremacy? For if every Pastor have charge to feed his flock; and to feed implieth a fullness of power peculiar to the supreme head: then by your reason every Pastor in his church, every feeder in his flock, is a supreme head, no less than Peter was amongst the Apostles. Nay, Peter was not so, by your reason, neither. For, if to feed do signify a power most absolute and full, as t Staplet lib. 6. cap. 10. you say it doth, and that power was given to all the Apostles, u Stap●et. lib. 6. cap. 7. as you confess too: it followeth by your own confession and saying that all the Apostles had that charge, to feed. If all they had that charge: to feed, maketh nothing for Peter's Supremacy. Wherefore this, and other of the like knots, which Stapleton hath sought and ●ound out in bulrushes: they did not grow in them, by the workmanship of the Creator; man hath made them, and God will lose them. Hart. This which you have said might seem to be some what towards the losing of them: The second Division. if the scripture gave not very clear evidence for proof of his Supremacy as well elsewhere as here. For Christ said to Peter, x Luc. 22.31. Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired you, to winnow you, as wheat. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not. And thou being converted, strengthen thy brethren. Rainoldes. Will you be drawing still of blood? for what doth either Christ's prayer for Peter, or the charge given him to strengthen his brethren, say more for his supremacy: then the question, dost thou love me? or, the charge, feed my sheep? unless you press violently the words beyond their sense, as your school-divines in their captious syllogisms (or rather sophisms) use to do. Hart. Such dregs (as our y Melchior Canus locor. Theologicor. lib. 8. cap. 1. Canus termeth them) of sophisms, brought into the School by men who were unworthily named school-divines, are reproved by us as well as by you. But the words of Christ do speak enough for Peter's prerogative without violence. For z Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 8. they command him to strengthen his brethren. And his brethren were the rest of the Apostles. They command him therefore to strengthen the Apostles. If to strengthen the Apostles: then must he be their supreme head. Wherefore the words of Christ prove the supremacy of Peter. Rainoldes. And think you that Christ meant the rest of the Apostles, when he said, thy brethren? Hart. Whom should he mean, if not them? Rainoldes. All the faithful, as I think. For they have all one a 1. Pet. 1.17. Father, the same that Peter hath; and they are b 1. Pet. 3.7. fellow heirs of the grace of life with Peter; and Peter himself strengthening them, c 2. Pet. 1.10. calleth them brethren. So that, in Peter's judgement, Christ seemeth to have meant by his brethren, all the faithful. Pardon me, if I be rather of his mind therein, then of yours. Hart. As who say we denied that all the faithful are meant by his brethren: d Staplet. lib. 6. cap. 8. we teach the same also. Yet that is true, that I said. For (I trust) the Apostles are in the number of the faithful. Rainoldes. They are so. But then your reason of brethren hath no more force, then had the other of sheep. Nay it hath less. For what is * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to strengthen? Hart. To strengthen is to stay them up who do stand. For the function of preaching, e Rom. 10.14. which through the grace of God engendereth faith in men, hath two special parts, to teach, and to strengthen: or, as S. Paul speaketh, f 1. Cor. 3.6. to plant and to water. To teach and to plant, is to convert men unto the faith of Christ, and to engraff them into him. To strengthen and to water is to uphold them which are already faithful, that they may persevere in it. Rainoldes. Then is the charge lesser, to strengthen the brethren, then to feed the sheep. For to feed, is as much, as to preach the word of God. And, to preach, hath two duties: to raise up them that are fallen, to strengthen them that do stand. Wherefore if the supremacy were not given Peter by the charge, to feed the sheep: much less can it be given by a part of that charge, to strengthen the brethren. For as Peter ought that duty to his brethren: so did his brethren to him, and g Gal. 2.14. Paul performed it; so did the Apostles to their brethren, and h Act. 15.41. Rom. 1.11. 1. Pet. 5.12. jude. 3. etc. they paid it; so do i 1. Thess. 5. 1●. all the faithful, every one to his brethren (according to that measure of grace, which God hath given them) k Rom. 12.5. 1. Cor. 12.25. as being all members of the same body, and therefore each to help other. Our l Polydor. Virgil hist. Angl. libr. 8. English Chronicles have a story of king Edward the Confessor, and Godwin Earl of Kent: that, when they were sitting at table together, Harald the kings cupbearer, the Earl's son, did stumble so with one foot, that he was down almost, but recovering himself with the other foot, he neither fell, nor shed the drink. Whereat when the Earl smiled, and said, now one brother helped an other: the king calling to mind his brother alfred's death, whom the Earl had slain, beheld him with a displeased countenance, and said, So might my brother also have helped me, if thou hadst not been. In the which story, the cupbearer who stumbled, doth show that one foot may strengthen an other, and stay them both that they fall not: the Earl, who observed therein a brother's duty, doth show, that the younger may strengthen the elder, or the elder the yoongger: the king, who remembered his own estate by it, doth show that the inferior may strengthen the superior, yea the member the head. By the proportion of which points a man of reason may see, that an equal in all respects may strengthen an equal: that, amongst unequalles, the left may strengthen the right, and the right the left: yea, that an arm, that a foot may strengthen the head, and save it perhaps from taking such a fall, as would crush it in pieces. Wherefore the charge of Peter, to strengthen his brethren, is no sufficient proof that he was made head of the meanest amongst the faithful: much less of the Pastors whom m 1. Pet. 5.1. he calleth his fellow-elders; and least of all of the Apostles, n Mat. 28.19. whose commission was the same with his to all nations. Hart. It is true that others may strengthen their brethren, as members of the same body: but Christ commandeth Peter to do it as their head. Which may be gathered * Staplet. lib. 6. cap. 8. by the occasion, whereon the words were spoken. For, when there arose a strife among the Apostles which of them should seem to be the greatest: Christ said unto them, o Luc. 22.25. The kingesof the Gentiles do reign over them; but you not so, and so forth: teaching them, that 1 Omnem dominandi appetitum ac libidinem. all desire and lust of reigning aught to be far from his ministers. 2 Ne tamen omnem dominandi potestatem pa●iter prohibuisse aut abstulisse videretur. Yet lest he should seem thereby to have forbidden withal, or taken away all power of reigning from them: he added those words spoken to Peter only; plainly declaring that he should be the greatest, which was the matter where about they strived. Rainoldes. Cato said * Cic. de divination. lib. 2. that he marveled, that a Soothsayer did not laugh when he saw a Soothsayer. Me thinks, the professors of your divinity should laugh, when they see one an other. For, they prove the points of their Popish doctrine by as strong reasons: as the Sooth sayers used to prove their divinations by the liver, and the hart, and other entrails of beasts. But children are persuaded, when they hear a ring of bells that the bells speak whatsoever they have fancied, at least, like unto it. The Lord, when the Apostles did strive about dominion and superiority, told them, that none of them should be amongst the rest, as kings amongst the Gentiles: yet lest he should seem withal to have forbidden all dominion amongst them, he appointed Peter to be their supreme head. Thus saith the Soothsayer. But what saith the Scripture? In effect the clean contrary. For it showeth, that Christ p Luc. 22. ver. 2●. having reproved them for striving who should be the greatest, and thirsting to be Lords after the manner of earthly kings: q ver. ●6. taught them, that an humbling of themselves to their brethren, and a desire to do good by serving each of other, must be the pre-eminence that they should seek, as r ver. 27. he had done. And as s ver. 28. they had been partakers of his troubles, so t ver. 29. had he appointed to them a kingdom also: u ver. 30. to make them partakers of that bliss and glory, in which he should reign himself, as king of kings, & they (as counsellors about him) sitting on x Mat. 19.28. twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Now the former part of this speech of Christ debarreth the Apostles all from that supremacy (of * Sanctissimus Dominus noster Papa. our most holy Lord the Pope) which you would put on Peter. The later hath greater colour for his dream, who saith, that Christ removed 1 Omnem dominandi appetitum ac libidinem. all lust of reigning from his ministers, and 2 Non tamen omnem dominandi potestatem. not all power of reigning; because it mentioneth a kingdom that Christ appointed for them. But this importeth rather an equality of Peter with the rest of the Apostles: sith the state is common, and thrones are given to them al. Or if there might be even so notwithstanding a superiority, as at a council table there must needs be, in sitting one before an other: yet is that nothing unto that supremacy which you claim for Peter. For, to serve your purpose, Christ should have said, that he would establish them all in seats of honour: but Peter in a throne like y 1. King. 10.18. the throne of Solomon: and he should be their Pope, and they should be his Cardinals * As the Pope telleth his Cardinals (newly created) advertising them of their duty. Sacrar. ceremon. sanct. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. sect. 8. to 1 Success oars Apostolorum circa thronum sedebitis. sit about the throne, and be both 2 Consiliarii nostri & con ●ucices orbis ●●●rarum. Counsellors to him, and judges with him of all the earth. Hart. It is a folly (I see) for me to reason with you, if you be resolved to cast of so weighty reasons, as trifles. Rainoldes. A folly indeed: if you go about to make me esteem of molehills, as mountains. Hart. I go not about it: but this, that the reasons which are in truth as mountains, you will esteem them so. Rainoldes. Then you must prove them so. But if your mountains travel, and be delivered of a mouse: you may not look that I should admire it as a Giant. Hart. Well. Let us leave the occasion of Christ's words: and weigh the words in themselves. * Staplet. p●inc. doct. li. 6. cap. 8. For there are two things which Christ doth therein. First, in the common danger of all, he strengtheneth Peter only: Satan hath desired you, to winnow you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not. Then, lest that strengthening should seem to have been made for Peter's own sake alone, or in respect of his personal faith, he addeth, And thou being converted strengthen thy brethren: showing that he is strengthened in the faith, to the end he might strengthen the faith of all others, as who should be afterward the Pastor of them all. Rainoldes. It were a needless labour for me to spend words in these your two points, if you had marked that which hath been said already. For I showed that the former argueth his weakness; the later openeth his duty; but neither proveth any pre-eminence at all, save a pre-eminence in frailty. The truth is, that Christ in those words doth three things: whereof one is a bile, and therefore you touch it not. For in the danger of them all, but greatest danger of Peter, he putteth him in mind 1 Satan hath desired to winnow you, as wheat. first of his fall, to humble him; 2 I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not. then of his rising, to comfort him; 3 And thou being converted, strengthen thy brethren. last, of his duty to quicken him unto it. His fall; to cool the heat of t Theophylact. in Luc. 23. pride and u Chrysostom in Matth. hom. 83. vain glory, (may I so term it with the Fathers?) wherein he presumed, * Matth. 26.33. more than the rest did, of his faith and constancy. His rising; that he should not despair when he had fallen. For though he dealt unfaithfully, denying Christ thrice: yet his faith should not fail, because x joh. 11.42. he (whom God doth always hear) had prayed for him. His duty; that being raised up again he should strengthen his brethren: as having learned by experience both to have compassion of the infirmity of men & to preach the goodness and mercy of God. The last point, of his duty, was common to him (as I have showed) with the Apostles: and therefore proveth no pre-eminence of supreme headship. The first, of his fall, proveth a kind of pre-eminence; but in the denying of Christ above others: which Popes have best right to, but they do not claim it. The other, of his rising, ensueth and dependeth on that of his fall: wherein, sith he specially would sin more than the rest, and so his danger be more special, and therefore need more special succour; Christ said to him in special, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not. For Christ prayed the same for all his Apostles in sense, though not in word, by that solemn y joh. 17. ve●. 11. prayer made unto his father, z 〈◊〉. 6. I have declared thy name unto them, a ver. 11. holy father, keep them in thy name and b 〈…〉. sanctify them with thy truth. Neither did he pray this for them only, but for c 〈…〉. all the faithful which should believe in him through their word. Wherefore, as a good father hath care of all his children, but if he see some one distressed above the rest, d Luc. 15.22.31. will cheer him up beside the rest; & a good Physician hath care of all the body, but apply plasters to the part affected: so Christ, to help Peter, who was to be distressed & diseased most, encouraged him with this comfort, that his faith should not fail; and laid that salve of God's assured favour on the sore of distrust that might afflict his mind. Now, this care and wisdom of a father and a Physician doth show (for the child & part whereto they tender it) not, that they be in greater honour than the rest, but that they stand in greater need. The words of Christ therefore spoken unto Peter, I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: do prove that he stood in greater danger than the rest, not that he was in greater dignity. And these are the words, of which D. e Princip. doct. lib. 6. cap. 8. Stapleton doth insolently vaunt, that they are so singular for Peter's supremacy: that Calvin (when he had diligently weighed all other places & reasons that are wont to be brought for it, & refuted them as he could) made no mention at all of this place & these words * Vt qui probe sciret nullo cavilationis suco tam manifesta ve●ba 〈◊〉 potuisse. because he knew well that it was impossible to shift of words so manifest with any colour of a cavil. Whereas it is most likely, that Calvin, a wise & faithful servant of the Lord, did therefore pass them over in handling your supremacy, because he knew they made so little for your purpose, that if he should have brought them in amongst your reasons, he might seem to have sought a shadow wherewith to fight. For, you abuse them so notoriously, that if, I say not Calvin, but any of the meanest children of the Prophets, whom God hath scarcely given one portion of his spirit to, would deal with you for it: we have as just cause to charge you with this fact, as f 2. Sam. 13. 〈…〉. Tamar f Sam. 13. ver. 14. had to charge her brother Ammon with his villainy. Hart. Good Lord, what mean you so to say? Rainoldes. Nay, I may rather ask: good Lord, what mean you so to do? For, as Amnon, enamoured of his sister's beauty, ensnaring her by fraud, did force her to his lust, and after g ver. 15. cast her out; whereupon she said, h ver. 16. this evil was greater than the other, which he had done unto her: so the Pope inflamed with love of the church, entrapping her with guile and using violence unto her, doth cast her out of doors by giving this as proper, first to Peter, then to himself, that Christ prayed for him, that his faith should not fail. Wherein I have this reason to say, that he doth greater evil unto the church, than was the other which he did: because in the other she had this comfort left, that the transgression was rather his, who did, then hers, who suffered force: in this he taketh from her all comfort of her misery, and maketh her ashamed to cast her eyes on God or man. For what is the comfort of the Church of Christ, the faithful, and elect, but that i joh. 17.11. he hath prayed for us that we fail not, that the k Matt. 16.18. gates of hell shall not prevail against us; that our l Hebr. 6.18. hope might be an anchor of strong consolation, that m Rom. 8.16. we do believe and are assured by God's spirit we are the heirs of life eternal? of the which comfort that incestuous Amnon seeketh to bereave us and cast us out of the doors, when he saith that Christ prayed for Peter only, and after Peter for the Pope. But of the Pope * Chap 7. Division 2. in due place. Now, we speak of Peter. Hart. Why? Dare you deny that Christ spoke to Peter, and to Peter only, when he said, n Luc. 22, 31. Simon, I have prayed for thee that thy faith should not fail? Doth not the very text of the Gospel show it? Rainoldes. What? Dare you deny that Christ spoke to the man sick of the palsy, and to him only, when he said, o Matt. 9.2. Son, be of good comfort, thy sins are forgiven thee? Doth not the very text of the Gospel show it? But is this a proof that other Christians have not their sins forgiven too? And do we all believe in vain when we believe forgiveness of sins? Or may you not affirm it with as good reason, as you affirm the other of Peter, not to fail in faith? Are you the masters of Israel p Allens Apology of the English Seminaries. Bristol in his Motives, Demands, and Reply. who make so great boast of skill in all Divinity: and do you not know that Pastors and Preachers (of whom Christ was 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 1 Pet. 5.4. the chiefest) apply the general doctrines of the law and Gospel to them, in particular, who need to be relieved thereby? If I should say to some covetous man, who grindeth the faces of the poor, and buildeth up his house with blood, or joineth benefice to benefice, and taketh charge of a flock which he feedeth not; r Hebr. 13.5. Let thy conversation be without covetousness, for he hath said, I will not fail thee nor forsake thee: do I take this comfort of the providence of God from every other Christian, because I assure it to one in particular? Or did the Apostle overshoot himself, in saying that to all the faithful which God said to joshua: s jos. 1.5. I will not leave thee, nor forsake thee? You have your choice, take which you list: either acquit us, or condemn him. For if Christ meant to assure the faith of none but of Peter, because he said to him, I have prayed for thee that thy faith should not fail: then did God promise his gracious assistance to none but to joshua, when he said to him, I will not leave thee nor forsake thee: and * Hebr. 13.5. the Apostle erred in saying it to all Christians. If the Apostle said that to all Christians by the spirit of truth: then is it true in like sort, that it may be said to any child of God, whom Satan hath desired to sift and shake (as he did Peter,) and made him to deny Christ; Be of good comfort, for he hath said, I have prayed for thee that thy faith should not fail. And if it may be said to any child of God: then was it verified in all the Apostles, t joh. 17.12. except the child of perdition. Wherefore Christ, by saying of those words to P●ter, gave him no Supremacy over the Apostles. Hart. I cannot deny, but that, in some respect, it may be truly said to all the children of God, if they fall as Peter did. Yet (I know not how) me thinks, I cannot be persuaded, but that it maketh somewhat for Peter's supremacy. Rainoldes. No marvel. For the noise of it hath been so great and loud about your ears, in the Seminary at Rheims and other Popish schools beyond seas: that it hath made you dull of hearing, and you cannot perceive * 1. King. 19.12. the still & soft voice of the truth. As u Cic. in ●omnio Scipion. we read of them who dwell about the fall of the river Nilus, where it tumbleth down from the high mountains, that they are made deaf by the greatness of the sound and noise of the waters. But tell me I pray: do you think that Christ made Peter supreme head by saying unto him, I have prayed for thee, or, strengthen thy brethren? Hart. What a question is that? Why should I mention it, unless it proved his supremacy? Rainoldes. It is a question. For if Christ made him supreme head by those words: then the supreme head denied Christ, and that often, and that with an oath too. Whereof a very dangerous conclusion would follow, that the Pope may err, yea (that is more) deny Christ. Hart. I say not that Christ made him supreme head at that present time: but prepared him (as it were) to make him supreme head after. As D. x Princip. doctrinal. l. 6. c. 8. Stapleton writeth that Christ by those words established Peter's faith, 1 Antequam hanc tantam potestatem illi de facto conferret. before that he bestowed the power of supreme headship upon him in deed. For he gave that power after his resurrection, when he said to him, Feed my lambs: feed my sheep. But those words (of strengthening) he spoke before his death, and did but 2 Futuram insinuaverat. Stapl●t. l. 6. c. 9 insinuate therein & give an inkling, that he would make him supreme head. Rainoldes. You have said. And your Doctor hath showed, herein, a point of greater wit than many of his fellows. But as of greater wit, so of greater spite, in adding thereunto (that, which now I touched) * Lib. 6. cap. 8. that Calvin made no mention at all of those words, because he knew well that (they are so singular for Peter's supremacy) they could not possibly be avoided. For y Institut. religion. Christ. lib. 4. cap. 7. sect. 27. & 28. Calvin doth mention them in treating of the point whether the Pope may err. And your Doctor witnesseth himself that directly they concern that point: the supremacy, but by an inkling. The strength thereof then, as touching the supremacy, doth rest upon that, whereof they give inkling it should be done after: that is, upon the charge of feeding lambs and sheep. But it is proved that Christ gave no more to Peter, in that, then to the rest of the Apostles. It is proved therefore, that the words of Christ [strengthen thy brethren] do raise no higher throne for Peter then for them. Much less, if the prayer that Christ made for Peter were common unto him with all faithful Christians, and not with the Apostles only. Wherefore this reason, which is so strong in your eyes, must be strengthened by his brethren, if he have any. For sure he is a great deal too weak to strengthen them. Hart. Yes: he hath brethren. And more peradventure, than you would be glad to see in the field: as lusty as you are, and think you can dispatch them all. Rainoldes. Not I: save with the aids of Elisaeus only: z 2. King. 6.16. they that be with us, are more, than they that be with them. But let us see, what are they? The fourth Chapter. The practice of the Supremacy (which Peter is entitled to) imag●●●● to be proved, 1 by the election of Mathias to the Apostleship: 2 〈◊〉 by the presidentship of the Council held at jerusalem: 3 and by Paul's journey taken to see Peter, and his abode with him. Wherein, as in other of the acts of the Apostles, the equality of them all not the supremacy of one, is showed. HART. Examples of the practice of Peter's supreme-headship in the government of the Church. The first Division. Whereof we have records in the holy scriptures: even in the Acts of the Apostles, which are a pattern of Church-government. Rainoldes. The reasons in deed, which you gather thence, are brethren to the former. But they are no stronger, than the former were. If you bring them forth into the field: you shall perceive it. Hart. There are many places, but specially, two: by which Peter's sovereignty over the Apostles is manifestly showed. For in a Act. 1.15. the one, he proposeth an election to be made of a new Apostle into the room of judas. In b Act. 15.7. the other, he is Precedent of the Council of the Apostles, which was held at jerusalem: he speaketh first, and concludeth in it. Out of both the which I gather this reason. S. Peter did practise the power and authority of a supreme head over the Apostles. Therefore he was their supreme head. Rainoldes. Now are you come to that, which I had an eye too, when I desired you (in c Chap. 1. Diuis. 2. the beginning of our conference) to tell me what power you gave unto the Pope by calling him supreme head. For, in this grass there lurketh a snake. Which that you may see, and (if it be the gracious will of God) avoid, lest that you perish through his venoom: I will ask you a question. When you say, d Staplet. prin. doctr. lib. 6. in praefat. the Pope is * Primarium & supremum ecclesiastici judicii caput. chief and supreme head of ecclesiastical judgement, and Precedent of Counsels: do you mean that the Pope in assemblies of Bishops, is, as the Speaker (with us) in the Parliament, to propose matters to them, and ask their judgements, and gather their voices, that things may be orderly handled and enacted by common consent? Hart. As the Speaker? No. But as the Prince rather. Rainoldes. Yea, I say to you, and more than the Prince. For as things in Parliament cannot be enacted without the Prince's consent: so neither can the Prince make acts without consent of the Lords and Commons. And when they are made by consent of them all▪ they cannot be repealed by the Prince alone, without the like consent by which they were made. But with the Pope it is not so. For such is the power of his Princely prerogative, that not only Counsels may not make decrees for the Church-government without his consent: but he may also make decrees without them, as good as they with him. Yea, that he may add too, and take from, and alter what he shall think good in the decrees of Counsels▪ and set them out for theirs, e johannes Andreas in principio Clementina ●um, de constitut. council. Vi●●●ens. as Pope Clemens played with the Council of Vienna. Yea, that being made with their consent and his both: * As it is showed by the whole course of the Canon law: specially the Decretals, as they are called. he may break them when he will, and repeal them, if he list, for no law doth hold him. Now, sith that the power which you give the Pope by the name of supreme head, you give it Peter too, from whom you fetch the Pope's conveyance; and Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles, was but as the Speaker, and therefore not as the Prince, and therefore not as more than the Prince in our Parliament: hereof I conclude, that Peter was not the supreme head of the Apostles. And so have you the third point, f Chap. 3. Diuis. 1. which I promised to prove, that if somewhat more were given to Peter than to the rest of the Apostles, yet was it not so much as should make him their supreme head. You may discharge now the Acts of the Apostles, out of your Campe. For, draw what reasons thence you list, you shall find them (as I told you) no stronger than the former. Hart. You are too hasty: your conclusion runneth away before your proof. Rainoldes. I have proved as much as may conclude your Pope to be an usurper. Hart. You have not proved that Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles, was but as the Speaker is in our Parliament. Rainoldes. What need I? When yourself gave no more unto him, then as the Speakers office, in the former assembly: wherein yet he did most. For you said, g Petrus proponit faciendam furrogationem novi Apostoli. Staplet. lib. 6. cap. 13. that he proposed an election to be made of a new Apostle into the room of judas. And this was all that you might say, and say truly, by the story of the Acts. Which showeth, that not he, but h Act. 1.23. they mad● the election: so far as it was lawful for them to deal with that which God was to order extraordinarily. As for the other assembly, when the Council was held at jerusalem: you cannot prove that he had so much as the office of a Speaker therein. Your i Staplet. lib. 6. cap. 13. Doctor infeoffeth him (I grant) with more: namely, that * Primus ex omnibus loquitur, concludit, & praesidet. he speaketh first of all, concludeth, yea, and is Precedent too. But what will not he dare to affirm? who, in so great light of the Scriptures, affirmeth in writing that which is flat against them. For he saith that Peter not only speaketh first, but concludeth also. And they show that both k Act. 15. ver. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. there had been much debating and reasoning of the matter, before Peter spoke: and after he had spoken, l ver. 12. Barnabas, and Paul and m ver. 13. james spoke, and so n ver. ●2. the Council did conclude the matter. Yea they did conclude it according to the very words that james spoke, and o ver. 29. a special point of his, which Peter touched not. So that, if we would strive but lawfully against that, for which you strive unlawfully: p ver. 20. the likelihood is rather that james sat as Precedent in the Council, than Peter, sith both he spoke last and the whole Council did conclude with him. But, to yield unto you (for your most advantage) as much or more than any likelihood may afford you, that Peter was not only the Speaker but the Precedent in both the assemblies: yet are you no nearer unto that supremacy which you shoot at. For, such a Presidentship as Peter had amongst the Apostles, is so far from the Prelatship which the Pope seeketh to have amongst Bishops: that, if we should offer him all that Peter had (at your request) upon condition that he would accept it and ask no more than it: he would think we mocked him, and give you little thanks who take upon you to be his advocate, & make so poor a plea for him. This you may perceive by an other advocate, who made the same plea for him out of this story, a learned Lawyer, Francis Duaren. He (in q De sacr. eccle minister. ac benefic. lib. 3. cap. 2. his Abridgement of the Canon law) falling into the question of the Pope and the Council, whither of them is sovereign, and hath the chiefest power, whereto the other should be subject in matters of the Church: doth thus set down his judgement of it. It seemeth most agreeable to the law of God, that the Church (which the Council doth represent) should have the chiefest power, and the Pope should acknowledge himself subject to it. For the power of binding and losing was given by Christ not to Peter alone (whose successor the Pope is said to be) but a Matt. 18. c. Quodcunque. 24. q. 1. to the whole Church. Howbeit, I deny not, but Peter was set over the rest of the Apostles. Hereof it cometh that in the time of the Apostles b Act. 1. & 6. & 15. as often as any was to be ordained either Bishop or Deacon, or any thing to be decreed which appertained to the Church: Peter never took that upon himself, but permitted it to the whole Church. This was in him above the rest, that he was wont, 1 Tanquam princeps Apostolorum. as chief of the Apostles, to call them together, and propose to them the things, which were to be done. Even as now * He meaneth, in France. Where the courts of Parliament are assemblies of judges: of whom the Lord-chiefe-iustice (as it were) is called Precedent. with us, he that is the Precedent of a court of Parliament, doth call together the Senate: in the Senate he speaketh first, when it is needful; and doth many other things, which argue a certain prerogative and pre-eminence of the person that he beareth. Yet is he not therefore greater or higher then is the whole court: neither hath he power over all the Senators; neither may he decree any thing against their judgements: nay the judgement of all controversies belongeth to the court ( 2 Cuius caput esse praeses dicitur. whose head the Precedent is said to be,) and not to the Precedent. Yea, if need be, the court doth minister justice and execute judgement as well against him, as against any other, and punisheth him also. And this was the state of these things 3 Olim, olim. in old time. But in process of time, (I know not how) it came to pass, that the highest power over all Christians was given unto one man: and he was 4 Legibus omnibus canonibusque synodalibus (imperatorum exemplo) solutus. set at liberty from being bound to any laws (after the manner of * Princeps legibus solu●us est. l. Princeps. D. de legib. senatusqué consult. Emperors) or to the Canons & decrees of any Counsels. For c cap. Significasti. de election. Pope Paschalis provided and ordered by a decretal Epistle; 5 Nulla concilia Romanae ecclesiae legem praefigere posse. that no Counsels may prescribe a law to be kept of the church of Rome: & the authority of the Bishop of Rome is excepted expressly d c ideo. 25. q. 1. in the decrees of certain Counsels. And thus he goeth forward in showing the prerogative of the Pope above the Council: whereof he maketh him Precedent. But so, that (you see) he acknowledgeth it is not in * Their government by their Ca●●● law. the Acts of the Popes, as it was of old in the Acts of the Apostles: no not in those very places of the Acts, whereon you ground the chiefest proof of your supremacy. Which, and all the rest that you can bring with any show out of the scriptures, give Peter such supremacy, if you will call it so: that I am persuaded, Pope Gregory the thirteenth, as he hath already spent q Allens Apology of the Seminaries▪ chapt. 2. much upon Scholars, and r Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 4. somewhat upon Soldiers for maintenance of his State: so he will rather spend his triple crown, and all, upon them, than heretics shall force him to come out of his throne of majesty, and submit his head to such a supremacy. Hart. What tell you me of Francis Duaren, whose authority I regard not, nor am to be pressed with it? Chief, sith he was a Lawyer, not a Divine: and whither he were a Catholic or no, I know not. I will prove by the ancient and holy learned fathers, that Peter had a full and perfect supremacy over the Apostles, in those two places of the Acts. Rainoldes. I did not take Duaren for the strength of mine answer, but the holy scriptures, the same that you alleged. By the text and circumstances whereof, I made it plain, that Peter had no higher power in the assemblies of the Apostles: them hath either the Speaker of our English Parliament, or, (to make the most of it) the Precedent of a court of Parliament in France, which is Duarenes similitude. Howbeit, if I should have used his authority to confirm it, as well as I alleged his words to open it: you might not reject such a man so lightly. For s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. a gardener (as the proverb is) hath spoken oft to very good purpose: & t Exod. 18.17. jethro saw more in somewhat then Moses. And Duaren, though a Lawyer, yet was not only skilful of the civil law (which is a great help notwithstanding of wisdom in matters touching government:) but also of the Canon, whereof you may vouchsafe to count as of Divinity; doubtless your Divinity will be cold without it. Beside, he wrote that treatise to instruct students in the Canon law, which is the fortress of the Papacy: and he so delivereth the chiefest points of it, that Lawyers amongst the Protestant's were offended & u Responsio Christianorum iurisconsultorum ad Duareni commentarios de ministerijs ecclesiae atque beneficijs: Argentoruti. wrote against him for it. But now (thus you reward men) it is called in question, whether that he were a Catholic or no. I assure you, if you beware not, you will make honest and well affected hearts afraid to be Catholics; such, as you mean by that word. For if a man keep within any bounds of modesty and truth, & will not run headlong with you through thick & thin: you will account of him, either as an Heretic, or as one that savoureth of heresy at least. But who are the Fathers, whom you pretend against Duaren, to prove your supremacy out of those places of the Acts? Hart. * Staplet. princip. doctr. li. 6. cap. 13. S. Chrysostom, for the one: S. Jerome, for the other. Rainoldes. And what do they say? Hart. S. x In act. Apostolor. hom. 3. Chrysostom, entreating of the fact of Peter how he proposed the election of a new Apostle into the room of judas: Behold, saith he, the zeal of Peter. How he doth acknowledge the flock committed to him by Christ? How he is the chief in this assembly: and every where beginneth to speak first of all? Afterward he praiseth Peter for doing all things by the common advise and judgement of the Disciples, nothing by his own authority. Yet that Peter might have chosen an Apostle, yea, alone, without them, he affirmeth plainly. What, saith he, was it not lawful for Peter himself to choose him? yes, it was lawful, no doubt. But he doth it not, lest that he should seem to gratify any man. Then he praiseth the modesty of the rest of the Disciples: Consider, saith he, how they grant the seat to him (that is, the primacy, as y In Matthaeum homil. 51. otherwhere he calleth it,) neither doubt they any longer, debating amongst themselves, (to wit as they did once, when Christ conversed with them) which of them should be the greatest. This is S. Chrysostom's judgement of that place, which I alleged out of the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles for the supremacy of Peter. Rainoldes. This testimony of Chrysostom doth stand on two branches: the one, what Peter doth, as the Scripture showeth; the other, what he might have done, as Chrysostom supposeth. That which Peter doth, is granted. But it proveth not the supremacy. He remembreth his duty; he speaketh first of all; he doth all things by the common advise and judgement of the Disciples, and nothing by his own authority. Thus much I said of Peter, and did explain it out of Duaren. In Duaren you thought that it made against you, and therefore refused him. Doth it make for you, when it is in Chrysostom, that you bring him against Duaren? Or, is this the reason, why you accept the one and refuse the other, because the words of Chrysostom yielding a certain primacy to Peter, may deceive the simple, as though he meant that primacy which you call the supremacy: but the words of Duaren put so plain a difference between the two primacies, that, which Peter had; and the other which the Pope hath, or would have; that a blind man may see that Peter's primacy was not a Pope's supremacy. Which shall appear z Chapt. 5. Division 3. farther (if God will) by those things, that the Fathers speak touching Peter's primacy. And thus your proof faileth in that which the scripture showeth that Peter doth. Now that, which Peter might have done, as Chrysostom supposeth, would infer a greater primacy than Peter had, if it were true. But the scripture saith it not. Wherefore as the a Basil. de Gregor. Neocaes'. ep. 64. Athanas. de Origene, libel. de decret. Nicaen. Synod. Father's report one of an other, (by b Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 7. cap. 6. your own confession) that they writ some things 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to confute the adversaries with whom they had to deal, & in these they err sometimes and gather amiss: likewise may I say that they writ some things, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to praise the Saints of God, and stir up others to their virtue, * Hallacinantur interdum & ma●le colligunt. wherein if their words should be rigorously sifted, the truth is sometimes overlashed. So c In Act. cap. 15. homil. 33. Chrysostom (in the other place which you allege out of the Acts) to commend the mildness and wisdom of james, who left the sharper speeches to be used of Peter, and used himself the gentler, doth speak of him as being above Peter in power: and here to commend the modesty of Peter, because that he did all things by the common advise and judgement of his brethren, he saith (by the way of amplification) that Peter might himself have chosen an Apostle, which yet he did not. Hart. By way of amplification: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to praise the saints of God. Such colours you cast upon it. But Chrysostom saith expressly, that Peter himself (that is to say, alone) might have chosen him, if he would. And you (with smother words, but in plain effect) reply, that he lieth. Do Fathers praise the Saints so? Rainoldes. It is a rule d Chapt. 2. Division. 2. of your own and e Hieron. Torrens. in confession. Augustin. li. 1. ca 11. tit. 1. given by your jesuit, that a man may lawfully dissent from the Fathers, so that he do it with modesty. If any keep not this, you say he raileth at the Fathers. Of me, who would keep it, you say I cast colours. What shall I do to please you? Hart. You shall please me, if you descent not from them, but only in such things as be known truths. Which is another rule of ours, if you remember it. Rainoldes. I remember it well: and herein I have kept it. For it is a truth and a known truth, that the Fathers write, in favour of the Saints, some things which overlash the truth, if a man examine and try them by the touchstone. Peter himself shall be the Saint, in whose example I will show it. f In Matthaeum canon. 16. Hilary, upon the words of Christ unto Peter, * Mat. 16.23 Get thee behind me Satan, thou art an offence to me; saith, it is not meet we should think, that Christ did call Peter Satan; but Christ said to him, get thee behind me, and no more; the rest to the Devil, not to him, Satan thou art an offence to me. The same g In Matthaeum canon. 32. Hilary, 1 paené, sine pia ●●lo. almost but h Commentar. in Luc. lib. 10. Ambrose quite & clean excuseth Peter from all fault in that he denied Christ, nay Ambrose commendeth him. Peter answered, saith he, * Mat. 26.72. I know not the man, 2 Denegavit hominem, quem sciebat Deum. He well denied him a man, whom he knew to be God. i Clem. Alexan●r. hypotypos. lib. 5. Clemens and k Euseb. histor. eccles. lib. 1. cap. 13. Eusebius, whom l In epist. ad Galat. cap. 2. Oecumenius followeth, do write that that Peter whom Paul did withstand and reprove at Antioch, was not Peter the Apostle, but an other, I know not who, of the same name, one of the seventy disciples. Wherefore sith it is known by the word of truth, that Christ called Peter Satan, that Peter denied Christ, that Paul withstood and reproved Peter; and it may be known by the writtnges of the Fathers, how they vary from this truth in favour of S. Peter, that, by washing out the spots which seem to stain him, his praise may be the more glorious: I hope, I might take it for a known truth, that the Fathers writ some things 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to praise the Saints of God: wherein, if their words be sifted precisely, they overlash the truth sometimes. In saying whereof if you think I cast colours, and use words too smooth: I can amend that fault with speaking more roughly, as m In Matthaeum cap. 26. jerom doth, who saith that the sense which Hilary and Ambrose give of Peter's words, I know not the man; as though denying Christ he had denied him man, because he knew him God: they gave it of a reverent affection to Peter; but 1 Hoc quam frivolum sit, prudens lector intellig●t. wise readers see how frivolous it is, if they so defend Peter that they make God a liar. For, if Peter denied not, then did the Lord lie, who said, * Mat. 26.34. Verily, I say to thee, this night before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Behold what he saith, thou shalt deny me, not, the man. Or if S. jeroms words be too smooth also, I can speak more roughly yet with n In Luc. cap. 22. Theophylact: who saith that they who make that defence of Peter, do make * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. a foolish defence. Thus if you compare my words with Theophylacts, & jeroms, I used modesty: if with that which other of the Fathers write, I did it in a known truth, when I dissented from Chrysostom. Do I please you now? Hart. I wonder that you set yourself against S. Chrysostom, a Father so ancient, so learned, so godly, so skilful in the Scriptures. Rainoldes. Let me ask you a question. What think you of Christ? Was he alone free from all spot of sin, both original, and actual? or was the blessed virgin free from it also? Hart. You know o Conc. Trident. Sess. 5. Decreto de peccat. orig. & Sess. 6. the ●ustif. can. 23. our mind thereof. She was free from it also. Rainoldes. S. p In Matth. hom. 45. & in johan. hom. 20. Chrysostom saith the contrary: a Father so ancient, so learned, so godly, so skilful, in the scriptures. Yea, and he groundeth therein upon q Mat. 12.48. joh. 2.4. the scriptures: which he doth not, in yours of Peter. Hart. But other of the Fathers say the same, that we say: with whom we do dissent from Chrysostom. Rainoldes. If I should ask what Fathers say it of actual sin: hard for you to name them. As for original: your own r Locor. Theolog. lib. 7. cap. 1. & 3. Canus showeth * Ambros. August. Chrysost. Eus. Emis. Remig. Maxim. Bed. Anselm. Bernard. Erard. Anton. Pad. Bernardin. bonavent. Thom. Vincent. Antonin. Damas. Hug. de S. Vict. they all say the contrary. But if many said it: yet you may see by this, which I have showed of Chrysostom, what broken reeds you lean on, when you lean on such reasons: Chrysostom doth say so; therefore it is so. And, if [other fathers] be of as good credit to win you from others, unto a point of truth, as to a point of error: then will you be as ready to leave his opinion in this point of Peter, as you have been to leave it in that of the virgin. For a number of Fathers, even a whole 5 Epist. Synod. African. ad ecclesias Legion. Astur. Emerit. apud Cyp●ian. ep. 68 Council of Bishops of Africa (together with S Cyprian) do write that Peter did 1 Secundum magisteria divina. according to the les●ons and precepts of God, in that he proposed unto the disciples the ordaining of an Apostle in the room of judas, to the end they might deal 2 Omnium ●●●fragio & 〈◊〉. by common advise and voice therein. Wherefore, if you have Fathers in such regard, as you pretend, and do rather follow the consent of many, than the mind of one (which is * Chap. 2. Diuis. 2. your own rule) in exposition of scriptures: you must yield that Peter might not have done that which Chrysostom saith, he might; unless, you will say, that he might do that, whereof he was commanded and taught the contrary by God. But, if this opinion be so rooted in you, that reason cannot weed it out: wonder not at me who, beside the scripture, have Fathers more than you have, and therefore (by your judgement) the exposition of the Fathers. Wonder at yourself: who having neither of them stand against them both. Wonder at your Doctor: who having undertaken to prove the Supremacy by that, which Peter did in the Acts of the Apostles, telleth what he might have done by Chrysostom's supposal. Wonder at your Pope: who building on the word, not of God, but of man, and finding man's foundation over-weake too, doth not practise that which Chrysostom commendeth in the fact of Peter, but doth challenge that which Chrysostom imagineth of the right of Peter. Hart. If Peter would not use his own right, of modesty: his fact doth not bind the Pope (his successor) but that he may use it. Rainoldes. That refuge will not serve, unless you prove two things, whereof neither is true. One, that this sovereignty was the right of Peter: an other, that the Pope succeed him in all his right. By the way, what soever you deem of his right: you grant that he doth not succeed him in modesty. Hart. It is not expedient for him to do in every thing as Peter did. The second Division. But, that he succeed Peter in all his right: I will prove then, when I have proved Peter's right. Now, that this sovereignty was the right of Peter, and that he had as full power in the assemblies of the Apostles, as the Prince hath in a Parliament, or the Pope in a Council: S. Chrysostom's words were not all so pregnant upon the first of the Acts * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 14. as S. jeroms are upon the fifteenth, to prove it invincibly. For t Epist. 11. inter epist. August. he teacheth plainly that Peter was the first man who gave the sentence: which sentence being followed and approved by the rest, was concluded and published in the name of the whole Council, both of the head and of the body. 1 Audito Petro tacuit omnis multitudo. When they, saith he, had heard Peter, all the multitude held their peace: & james & all the Elders together did agree unto Peter's sentence. Rainoldes. What is this to the purpose? Doth [all the multitude held their peace] prove the supremacy of Peter? Hart. You are disposed to toy. My proof is in the rest of S. jeroms words: and you can see it, if you list. 2 In sen●entiam Petr● jacobu. & om●es ●imul Pres●yteri transierunt. james, and all the Elders together did agree unto Peter's sentence: therefore Peter was supreme head. Rainoldes. In deed I saw not whence you could frame a proof. Bear with mine oversight. The silence of the multitude was fit stuff for it. For all sorts of men do know by experience, Princes and Counsellors in matters of State, Nobles and Commons in the houses of Parliament, Citizens and Townsmen in their common assemblies, our Students of universities, both publicly in convocations, and privately in their colleges: that he is not always above the rest in power, whose sentence all the rest agree unto in consultation. But if your friends M. Hart, have done you such injury, that (by means they sent you untimely beyond sea) you are become a stranger in things of common sense, & humanity, at home: yet you have read (I trust) the story of the Acts, out of the which you reason; and God hath furnished you with gifts of wit and memory to understand it, and remember it. Tell me, do you think, that u Act. 3. ver. 34. Gamaliel the Pharise, the Doctor of the law, whom all the people honoured, was superior in power to the high Priest, and Council of the jews. Hart. No. Rainoldes. Yet when x ver. 33. the high Priest, and Council did consult to kill the Apostles: y ver. 35. he advised them, that they should not do it, and z ver. 40. having heard him, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. they agreed to him. If a Supremacy grow not hereof to Gamaliel: why should it to Peter? If it do to Peter: why not to Gamaliel? Is this the invincible proof that you did promise? When they had heard Peter, they all agreed to him: therefore he was their supreme head? Hart. But S. a Epist. 11. inter epist. August. jerom addeth farther of Peter, that he was princeps decreti, prince of the decree which the Apostles made. And sure (as it is well noted by Waldensis) b Doctrinalis Fidei lib. 2. cap. 4. if Peter had not been the chief and Precedent there: he were * procax es●●t. a malapert fellow to prevent them all in taking up the controversy and giving the definitive sentence. Thus saith Waldensis. Rainoldes. Before you promised Scripture, and performed Chrysostom. Now you claim by Jerome, & prove by Waldensis. This is your fashion. Treasures we look for: and we find coals. Hart. I bring not Waldensis for his own credit: but, as interpreter of S. jeroms meaning. Howbeit, though he were not himself an ancient writer: he was a great Clerk in the time he lived. Rainoldes. It may be: such a one as gave occasion to the proverb, that the greatest Clerks are not the wisest men. He did never enter into the Roman Senate-house: or else he might have learned, both, that 1 Princeps Senatus. Varro in epist. ad Oppian. apud Gell. Noct. Atti●ar. l. 14. c. 7. the prince of the Senate (as he was termed) gave his sentence first, yet was not Precedent of the Senate: neither was his sentence the definitive sentence, but he spoke his mind of the matter, (as others after him,) & the whole 2 Senatus consultum. Senate defined it. Though oftentimes the Senate agreed to the sentence of some one Senator, & him they did call 3 Princeps sententiae. prince of the sentence, that is to say, the first author: as jerom calleth Peter 4 Princeps decreti. prince of the decree; which himself expoundeth, 5 Primus autor ●●ius sententiae. Hieron. epist. 11. inter epist. August. the first author of the sentence. Wherefore it was not malapertness in Peter to speak before others, although he were not the Precedent of the Council: but indeed Waldensis was a malapert fellow to vouch that of Peter, and use S. jeroms words thereto. For, that they prove not a Presidentship of Peter, by entitling Peter prince of the decree, you may learn of 6 Cic. pro Corn. ●albo, Harum ego sententiarum princeps & author fui. Tully: who showeth that himself was prince of decrees, when he was neither Precedent nor prince of the Senate. Beside, (to let you see the poverty of this princehood farther) Jerome doth not mean the whole decree of the Council; when he saith that Peter was the prince of it; (for them he should deny the c Act. 15. ver. 10. scripture itself which maketh james the prince of part:) but he meaneth so much thereof, as touched his purpose, which Peter is mentioned first to have set down; namely, that d ver. 10. Gentiles being turned to the faith of Christ, should not be constrained to keep the law of Moses. Whereon, they, who know what the Romans meant by [ 7 Dividere sententiam. Cic. pro Mil●n. Ascon. Paedian. in Cicor. to divide a sentence,] may easily consider, how james though he agreed to Peter's sentence in general, yet excepted (as it were) from it this particular, that e Act. 15.20. the believing Gentiles should be admonished to keep certain points of the law of Moses, pertaining to 1 To abstain from the filthiness of idoled, and fornication: holiness and 2 and from that which is strangled, and from blood. peace with their * The jews. brethren, f Hebr. 1●. 14. both duties necessary for the faithful. The words of whose sentence g Act. 15.29. the Council followed so precisely: that h In Act. Apost. homil. 33. Chrysostom (if I would stand on men, as you do) speaketh of the sentence given by james as the definitive sentence, and saith that 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. he pronounced his judgement with power, and that 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the principality was committed to him. Hart. He speaketh so of james, * Staplet. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca 14. because he was Bishop of the City of jerusalem, where the Council was holden. Rainoldes. Beware of that answer. Hart. Why? It is S. i In Act. Apost. homil. 33. Chrysostom's. Rainoldes. Be it whose soever. See you not what followeth thereof, that every Bishop in his own diocese is above the Pope? For, if above Peter, above an Apostle, above a chief Apostle: much more above a Bishop of Rome, or any other. You were better say that Chrysostom did err, then fall into this peril. And in deed, (to help you in a point of truth) he that maketh james a Bishop of one City, whom Christ made an Apostle to all the Nations of the earth: doth bring him out of the hall (as they say) into the kitchen. It seemeth that Chrysostom spoke it upon the word of Clemens: k Hypotypos. lib. 7. apud Eusebium, histor. ecclesiast. lib. 1. cap. 1. who when he reported it, reported this withal, that Christ 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. did give knowledge after his resurrection to james, john, and Peter: and they 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. did give it to the rest of the Apostles. Which tale is flat repugnant to the word of truth: wherein we read that l Luc. 24.45. knowledge and m Act. 2.4. the holy Ghost was given by Christ to the Apostles all jointly. Hart. You shall not help me with such shifts against the Fathers. For other of them consent herein with Chrysostom, that james was Bishop of jerusalem. Rainoldes. Neither shifts, nor against the Fathers: but true defences in favour of them. For the Apostles, being sent to preach the Gospel to all Nations, made their chief abode in greatest cities of most resort, as at n Act. ●. 1. jerusalem, at o Act. 11.26 Antioch, at p Act▪ 19.10. Ephesus, at q Act. 28.30. Rome: that from the * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mother cities (as they were called) religion might be spread abroad unto the daughters. Now, because this residence in the mother-cities was afterward supplied by the Bishops of them: therefore the Fathers are wont oftentimes to call the Apostles Bishops of those cities, wherein they did abide most. Which they might the rather, for that 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. ●●sebius, and Clemens, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the word (in their speech) betokeneth (in a general meaning) any charge & oversight of others: in so much that the 2 Act. 2. vers. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. vers. 25. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. scripture apply it to the ministry of the Apostles also. And in this sort it seemeth to be said, as by r Ep. 68 De ordinando in locum judae episcopo. Cyprian, that a Bishop was to be ordained in the room of judas; so by s Comment. in epist. ad Calat. cap. 2. Jerome, that Peter was Bishop of Antioch; & by Chrysostom that james was Bishop of jerusalem. Though whither it were or no: yet that which I spoke in defence of Chrysostom is cleared by himself from your reproach of a shift. For he saith that james 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. was Bishop, as they say. Which words [as they say] import that he spoke it on the words of others: most likely, of Clemens, from whom 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Histor. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 1. Eusebius fetcheth it. But if notwithstanding you reply that Chrysostom allowed that [they say,] and supposed james to be a Bishop properly: then his words have so much the greater importance against your supremacy; seeing that they give the principality to james in his own diocese, and that above Peter. Howbeit, I will not take this advantage: because I know that neither Peter, nor james gave the definitive sentence; but when they had spoken their minds of the matter, Act 15. vers. 23. & 23. & 28. the Council did define it and decree it with common judgement. Hart. They did it with common judgement, I deny not. But Theodoret showeth, that Peter as a Prince had a great prerogative therein above the rest: yea, gave definitive sentence, to which the rest consented, and as it were, subscribed. For he (in an epistle which he wrote to Leo) affirmeth that Paul did run to great Peter, to bring a resolution from him unto them, who contended at Antioch about the observation of the law of Moses. Rainoldes. You may cite (if you list) S. u De o●●icijs ecclesiast. li. 1. ca 1. Isidore too, for an other special prerogative of Peter, as good as this, and grounded likewise on the Acts, (which he allegeth to prove it:) to wit, * Antiochiae pri●●um nomen Chistianorum per Petri praedicationem est exortum, sicut actus A●●stolorum te●tantur. that the name of Christians arose at Antioch first, through the preaching of Peter. For though he be more direct against the scripture, which showeth that x Act. 11. ●6. the name of Christians arose upon the preaching, not of Peter, but of Paul and Barnabas: yet is Theodoret direct against it too, by giving as proper & peculiar to Peter, that, which was common to the Apostles and Elders, y Act. 15.22. & 26.4. whose resolution z Act. 15.2. he was sent for. And as Isidore seemeth to have overshot himself by slip of memory, on too great a fancy (perhaps) towards Peter: in like sort Theodoret, seeking to get the favour of Leo bishop of Rome (whose help he stood in need of,) did serve his own cause, in saying, that Paul ran to great Peter, that so he might run much more to great Leo. Which words to have issued out from that humour: his commentaries on the Scriptures (where he sought the truth, and followed the text) show. For therein he saith of Barnabas and Paul, a In epist. ad ●alat. cap. 2. that they ran [not to great Peter] but to the great Apostles, and b In argumento epist. ad Ephes. had a resolution from them of the question about the keeping of the law. Howbeit if Theodoret's words unto Leo suffered no exception: the most were, that Peter pronounced the definitive sentence, as Precedent; not gave it, as Prince. But the Scripture itself (by the rule whereof his words must be tried) maketh no more for Peter's Presidentshippe then for james: and whosoever were Precedent, it showeth that neither james, nor Peter, but the Council gave the definitive sentence. So well it proveth that, which you undertook to prove concerning Peter: that he had as full power in the assemblies of the Apostles, as the Prince hath in a parliament, yea, or the pope in a Council. Harte, It proveth that well-enough, (though not to you:) chief if other places thereof be weighed withal. The third Division. For the singular power of Peter is declared also by S. Paul in that he saith to the Galatians, c Gal. 1.18. Then after three years I came to jerusalem to see Peter, and tarried with him fifteen days. Rainoldes. The singular power of Peter? In which words? By what reason? Because he went to jerusalem to see him? Or because he went after three years? Or because he stayed with him fifteen days? Hart. The reason consisteth * Stap. princ. doctr. li. 6. ca 13. in that which Paul did, & the cause for which he did it. For he went to jerusalem to see Peter. Why? but to do him honour, as d In epist. ad Gal. cap. 1. jerom saith in his Commentaries: and in an epistle to Austin, Peter was, (saith he) of so great authority, that Paul wrote, Then after three years, and so forth. e Epist. 11. int●● epist. August. And f In johann. homil. 87. Chrysostom; Because Peter (saith he) was the mouth of the Apostles, the chief, and top of the company: therefore Paul went up to see him above the rest. Because it was meet, saith g Comment. in ep. a● Gal. ●a. ●. Ambrose, that he should desire to see Peter, unto whom our Saviour had committed the charge of Churches. Which also h De prescript. contra haeret. Tertullian affirmeth, that he did of duty and right. Nor otherwise i Comment. in epist ad Gal. Theodoret: he gave, saith he, that honour to the prince of the Apostles, which it was fit he should. Hence it is, that, S. k In Ezechiel. hom. 18. Gregory doubteth not to say, that, Paul the Apostle was the younger brother: And S. l De baptism. contr. Donatist. l. 2. c. 1. Austin, an Apostle made after Peter: who saith moreover, that the primacy of the Apostles is conspicuous and pre-eminent, with excellent grace in Peter. Rainoldes. You bring in witnesses not necessary, to prove a thing not denied. For, that Paul was as Apostle, in time after Peter, and so his younger brother, as Gregory, Austin, and * Quia primus erat inter Apostolos, cui salvator delegaverat curam ecclesiarum. As jerom, Honoris priori apostolo deferendi. Ambrose say: that he went to see Peter for honour and reverence which he bore to him, as it is in jerom, Chrysostom and Theodoret; that he did this of duty and right; what right and duty? n Ex officio & iur●: scilicet eius dem fidei & praedicationis etc. Tert. of the same faith and preaching of the gospel, to show his concord with him, which is the meaning of Tertullian: all this will I grant you; m Gal. 1.17. & 2.2. the scriptures teach as much; what need the Fathers to prove it? Hart. Will you grant all that, which I alleged out of the Fathers? then will you grant that Protestants are in an error: and the truth is ours. For they avouch plainly the primacy of Peter, and call him, the mouth, the prince, the top of the Apostles. Rainoldes. Alas, you were agreed (me thought) to go through with the scripture first, & afterward come to the Fathers. I wisse they will give you small cause of triumphing over the Protestants, when you shall bring their forces out into the field, and see with whom they join, with you, or with us. But of the rest then. Now I grant you so much, as doth concern the point, for proof whereof you cited them: namely, that Paul went to see Peter for a reverent respect and honour of his person. But I deny the argument, which you infer thereof, that Peter had therefore a singular power, whereby you mean the supremacy. You should have laid the Fathers (if you would needs bestow them) on this which is denied, not on that which is granted. But this is the world. Men will rather give to the rich, who need not, then to the poor who need. Hart. I thought you would rather have denied that, than this: for this is clear of itself; and needeth no proof. The common use of men showeth it. For they give honour and reverence to them, in whom they acknowledge a superiority▪ Rainoldes. Perhaps, a superiority: yet not a supremacy. Hart. If Peter were Paul's superior in power: the supremacy is proved. Rainoldes. If in power: you say somewhat. Though nevertheless he might be full high in power, and yet come short of your supremacy. But he was superior to him in some things else, and not in power. Hart. That he was superior to him in power: I prove. S. Peter had honour given to him of Paul: therefore he was in power above him. Rainoldes. Evil news for husbands, that have shrews to their wives, if this argument be good. For n 1. Pet. 3.7. they are commanded to give honour to the woman as to the weaker vessel: whereof (by your Logic) the wives may claim authority and power above their husbands. S. Peter saw not this consequence: he did not think on his supremacy. For although he teach, that the husband should give honour to his wife, yet he calleth the wife the weaker vessel, not the stronger: and o 1. Pet. 3.1, he commandeth wives to be subject to their husbands, that is, to be inferior (I trow) in power unto them. Which S. p 1. Cor. 11.10. Paul noteth also more expressly, when he saith, the woman ought to have power upon her head. Hart. This answer doth not weaken the strength of mine argument. For the name of honour, when husbands are commanded to give it to their wives, is taken improperly. But honour, as I take it, as Paul gave it to Peter, is used in his proper sense: to signify a reverence, the which an inferior doth owe to a superior, a subject to him that is in power above him. Rainoldes. The honour which husbands are bound to give unto their wives, as to the weaker vessels, doth signify an honest care and regard of bearing with their weakness, providing for their wants, and showing all husbandly love and duty to them. Such a reverence as you mention it doth not signify, I grant: yet doth it signify a reverence which is implied in the love and duty that their husbands own them. q Tim. 3.3. S. Paul saith to Timothee: honour the widows, which are widows in deed. He meaneth that they should be charitably relieved: but this relief is no reason, why they should not reverently be regarded too. For you are deceived, if you think, that none are bound to reverence others, but only the inferiors their superiors in power. The Gentiles were taught by nature itself, that a reverence is due to every state of men: r Maxima debetur puero reverentia. Juvenal. satire. 14. to children, with an heed that no unhonest thing be done in their presence, because their tenderness is prove to learn it; s Magna fuit quondam capitis reverentia cani. ovid. Faster. lib. 4. to old men, with an honour, in respect of their wisdom, their experience, their gravity, wherewith the grey hears are wont to be accompanied; t Adhibenda est quaedam reverentia adversus homines, & optimi cuiusque & reliquorum. Cic. office lib. 1. to all, but chief to the best, with a modest account of their good opinion, and an honest desire to be approved of them. Wherefore if your argument do stand upon the proper signification of honour: you shall perceive yourself, that it can never prove a supremacy of power. For honour, is an outward profession and testimony of a reverent opinion, which we have conceived of some kind of excellency in him to whom we give it. So, the chiefest honour is due unto u Reu. 7.12. God, the father of lights, the fountain of all excellency: and after him to men, in several degrees, according to their several estates and gifts of excellency wherewith the Lord hath blessed them: to a 1. Pet. 2.17. the king, as b vers. 13. pre-eminent, and c vers. 14. 1. Tim. 6.1. all that govern under him; to d Phil. 2.29. 1. Tim. 5.17. the ministers of the gospel, the more, the better they do their duty; to e Exod. 20.12. them whom nature most doth bind us, our fathers and mothers; to f levit. 19.32. the aged, g Gen. 41.39. the wise, h Ester. 6.3. the virtuous, i Act. 5.34. the learned: in a word to k 1. Pet. 2.17. all men; but chiefly l Cor. 12.24. to the faithful, as members of the body of Christ, none so base but hath an excellency, the excellency of a Christian. And hereby appeareth the weakness of your argument: that Paul was inferior to Peter in power, because he gave him honour. Did not m 1. King. 2.19. Solomon in his majesty give honour to his mother? and was not he the king, and she a subject to him? Are we not all taught n Rom. 12.10. to go one before an other in giving honour, as well the rich as the poor, as well the high as the low? What a proud and arrogant mind had * Staplet. princi. pior. doctrine. lib. 6. cap. 13. that body (unless his mind and tongue dissented) who thought that he must give honour to no man, but to them only that are in power above him. Belike this divinity was learned out of that chapter of the book of Ceremonies (which I touched afore) o Sacr. ce●emon. sanct. Rom. eccles. lib. 3. sect. 1. that the Pope doth do reverence to no man, of duty and right: for than he is afraid lest it should be thought that some man is in power above him. Yet p Lib. 1. sect. 13. in the same book (to see a good nature) we read that * In the year of Christ 1●68. he did honour Fridericke the Emperor: in so much that he placed him next unto himself above all the Cardinals; and 1 Altitude sedis ita era● instituta ut non altior esset locus ubi sederet imperator, quam ubi Pontifex teneret pedes. the place in which the Emperor did sit, was no lower than the place, where the Pope did hold his feet. Now, the seat of the Emperor declareth, that the Pope was above him in power: and yet the Pope 2 Honoravit, quantum potuit● cum summa tamen gravitate & maiestate. did honour him. Paul therefore might have been above Peter in power, though he did honour Peter. If he might: the honour, which he gave to Peter, doth strike no stroke for the supremacy. Wherefore you may dimisse it as a coward out of the field, not fit to fight the Pope's battles. Doth not this mine answer touch [honour] taken properly? Or will you set the Emperor above the Pope in power? Or is it a lie that the Pope did honour him? Hart. You triumph over me at every small occasion, as though you had a conquest. But you see not your own absurdities and follies. You spoke erewhile of the Apostles, as equal in power: now you speak of Paul, as if he were above Peter, like a Pope above an Emperor. And I did frame my reason out of the Scriptures and Fathers: and you do bring the book of Ceremonies to kill it. Will you subdue us with such warriors? Rainoldes. I would feign triumph, not over you, but over your errors, if I could. The strength of my cause and valour of my proofs maketh me the chéerefuller in dealing with the dastards, which you set against them. My former words, of the Apostles as being equal in power, agree well with these of Peter and Paul. For I say not, that Paul was above Peter, but that he might have been above him in power, for all the honour which he gave him. And this is sufficient to overthrow your reason. But if my example of the Pope and Emperor did cause you to mistake me: you may take an other and fit for the purpose, the College Apostolic, as q Pope Pius the second. Sacrar. cerem. lib. 1. sect. 8. the Pope doth call them, I mean the Cardinals of Rome. Who, though they be in states, orders, and livings, one above an other: r Lib. 3. sect. 1. yet 1 Cardinals' intersese & gestis & verbis & nutu summam exhibent reverentiam: stando, sedendo, eundo, equitando, & in rebus omnibus alter alteri deferendo. in all things, and with all courtesies they all give high reverence one unto an other. And when any of them doth come into the chapel of the Pope's holiness to say his devotions, he turneth towards the Cardinals of his own order, and goeth not directly to his own place, unless he be the lowest: but beginning at the lowest, 2 Quasi ibi remanere velit. as though he would abide there, he is desired & entreated of every one to go higher, until he come directly to his own place, unless he be the lowest: & himself 3 Modesté: semel atque iterum. (demurely, once, & again) desireth him, who is next unto him, that he will go before him; & 4 Tandem in locum suum residet. at length he sitteth down in his place. This is a foul trouble to make so much ado at the coming in of every Cardinal to prayers: chief, when prayers are begun. Yet to show how modestly they think of themselves, and how they honour one an other, 5 Hoc idem facit quotiescunque aliquis venit postalios, present vel absent Pontifice. every one (that cometh after others) doth it, whither the Pope be there or no. Out of doubt, Cardinals, men of such wisdom, would not commit this folly, if every one whom they honour must be above them in power. But you deal injuriously with me, to say, that you framed your reason out of the scriptures and Fathers, and I bring the book of Ceremonies to kill it. For neither did you ground upon the words of scripture, but only on a circumstance observed by the Fathers, that Paul went to Peter of reverence to honour him: and I slew the reason (which you made thereof) with the sword of scriptures; I used the book of Ceremonies, but as an Irish Lackey, to cut off a dead man's head. I would not have vouchsafed as much as to name him, but to cast the dung of your solemnities in your faces: and to show the fondness of a Popish reason, by practice of a Papal mockery. Though I see not, why you should prefer so the scriptures and Fathers before the book of Ceremonies. For the book of Ceremonies speaketh more good of the Pope in one leaf, then both the other do throughout all their volumes. And * Sacrarum ceremoniarum, five rituum ecclesiasticorum sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae libri tres. Romae. Typis Valerij Dorici. 1560. Cum priuilegi●. it is solemnly printed at Rome with Peter's picture in the front, and the keys in his hands and [ * Pa●ce oves meas. Feed my sheep] written about him, as a book of great account: where many of the Fathers do lie in the dust of the Vatican Library, and cannot come into the light. Notwithstanding, if you be willing to yield yourself prisoner to the Fathers, as Gentlemen, & think the book of Ceremonies to be a rascal soldier whom you disdain to yield unto: behold your own witnesses who make not Paul inferior to Peter, otherwise, then in the time of his Apostleship, the one made first, the other last. S. Jerome: who putteth s Comment▪ in epist. a● Gala●. cap. 2. an equality between them, though Paul did honour him, t cap. 1. as an Apostle before him. S. u In epist ad Gal. cap. 1. Chrysostom: who pronounceth that Paul (to say no more of him) was Peter's peer in dignity. S. x In epist. ad Gala. cap. 1. & ●. Ambrose: who giveth a primacy to them both, and saith that Paul was even such an other as Peter. S. y Exposit. epist. ad Galat. cap. 1. Austin: who declareth their authority to have been equal; and that, for Paul's honour, what he wanteth in time, is supplied by Christ's glory, in that he made him an Apostle, not (as the rest) upon the earth, but when he reigned now in majesty. And these things are written by the same Fathers, whose words, touching the honour that Paul gave to Peter, your * Staplet. prin●▪ doct. li. 6. ca 1●. Doctor setteth in a beadrole, as though in their judgement Paul acknowledged Peter his supreme head thereby. Wherein you may perceive both his deceitful dealing, that allegeth their words, as setting one above the other, who in express words do make one equal to the other: and your expositions how jump they meet with the Fathers, who gathered an equality of Peter and Paul by the epistle to the Galatians, whence you conclude Peter's supremacy over Paul. Hart. How the Fathers all agree with one consent of Peter's supremacy: it shall be showed hereafter. As for the circumstance which I observed out of them touching the fact of Paul, that when he went to see Peter, he went of reverence to honour him: I do not account so greatly thereof, as of the fact itself; nor urge I the Fathers so much observing that, as the report of this made by the Scriptures. For they set it forth, with so lively words, as if it were of purpose to paint out Peter's primacy. * Gal. 1.18. Then after three years I went to jerusalem (saith Paul) to see Peter and tarried with him fifteen days. Mark his words, I pray, and see what weight they carry with them. He went to jerusalem, so far, so long a journey; and he went notwithstanding his great affairs ecclesiastical; and he went to see Peter, not in the vulgar manner, but (as S. z In epist. ad Gal. cap. 1. Chrysostom noteth that the * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Greek word importeth) to behold him, as men behold a thing or person of name excellency and majesty. Neither did he go only to see him; but he abode with him also, to fill himself with a perfect view of his behaviour. And he abode with him no common time, but fifteen days: fifteen days, a great matter, and more than many would think, who do not search the depth of scriptures. In such estimation was Peter with Paul: and will you yet deny his primacy? Rainoldes. King * Plutarch. in apothegm. Agesilaus, when one praised an Orator, that he could amplify things, and make them of small to seem great: I, saith he, would never count him a good shoemaker, who would put a great shoe upon a small foot. You play the Orator, M. Hart, with your amplifications: and that in such sort, as you pass the shoemaker of Agesilaus▪ For you do not only put a great shoe upon a small foot: but you stretch the leather with your ●éeth too. And yet when you have wearied yourself with stretching it: you will have stretched it in vain. For though your shoe be too great for the primacy of Peter, yet will it be too small for the supremacy of the Pope. Hart. We speak not of the Pope now, but of Peter. Why stray you from the point? Rainoldes. I thought they had been things both of one nature, and differing in name only. But I will speak of Peter. And that you may see that the shoe which you made is too great for his foot: I will show it by a plain demonstration to the eye. The mother of our Saviour, the blessed virgin Marie, is called, in the scripture, Luc. 1. ver. 28. blessed among women: that is (as I interpret it after the Hebrew phrase) the most blessed of women. What think you of her? Was there any woman in her time above her, in any thing of name, of excellency and majesty? Hart. Above her? God forbidden. Neither in her time, nor before her, nor after her. Rainoldes. Yet she, when b ver. 35. the holy Ghost was come upon her now, and the power of the highest had overshadowed her, c ver. 39 went into the hill country with haste to a city of juda, not only to see, but also d ver. 40. to salute her cousin Elisabet. And e ver. 41. her salutation was such, that when Elisabet great with child did hear it: the babe sprang in her belly, and she was filled with the holy Ghost. Neither did she only go to salute her; but f ver. 56. tarried with her also: and that no common time, but about three months; three months, a great time, chief for a woman, which was conceived with child. If you tendered not the blessed virgins honour more than you do Paul's: your Rhetoric, that depresseth Paul beneath Peter, would much more debase her beneath Elisabet. For she was cousin to Elisabet according to the flesh: Paul was Peter's brother according to the spirit, * Matt. 12.42. a nearer kin, & straighter bond of amity and duty. She went a harder journey, into the hill country: Paul a pleasantor to jerusalem; whither some other causes might allure him also. She was a woman, weaker of body, and might away with travel worse: Paul a man, strong, exercised with toils and troubles. She went thither in haste: Paul, after three years. Paul went to see Peter: she to salute Elisabet. Her salutation was so heavenly, that the babes body, & the mother's spirit felt it: nothing is written of Paul's seeing Peter, but only that he saw him. She stayed with her cousin about three months: Paul abode with Peter no more than fifteen days. Yet Paul, as an Apostle, might be and stay any where: the virgin, as g Luc. 1.27. a maid betrothed to a man, had greater cause to keep home, chief being with child. Wherefore if Peter were above Paul in excellency and majesty, because he did go to jerusalem to see him, and stayed with him fifteen days: what might Elisabet be above the blessed virgin, which went into the hill country to salute her, and abode with her about three months? Hart. Nay. But there is more in the fifteen days of Paul's abode with Peter, then in the three months of Maries with Elisabet. Rainoldes. More? What is that? Hart. Marry there is a mystery (as S. Jerome showeth) in the number of days which Paul did spend with him. Rainoldes. You commended the lively words of the text: & now from them you flit to Jerome. They be mysteries, I see, that must set a helping hand to your supremacy: the literal sense of scripture will do nothing for it. But what is the mystery? Hart. S. h Epist. ad Paulin. presbyt. inter epist. Hier. epist. 103. Jerome (in an epistle, which commonly is printed in the beginning of the Bible, because it entreateth of all the books of holy scriptures) falling into mention of Paul how he stayed with Peter fifteen days, doth give this reason of it: hoc enim mysterio hebdomadis & ogdoadis futurus gentium praedicator instruendus erat; for by this mystery of the number of seven and eight, he who should become the preacher of the Gentiles, was to be instructed. Rainoldes. And what did S. Jerome mean by this mystery of the number of seven and eight, which he divideth those fifteen days into? How was Paul (I pray) to be instructed by it? Hart. Look you to that. Those are his own words: wherein you have as much expressed, as I said: that it is a mystery. Rainoldes. But it is like to be a mystery still, if it be not expounded: and we shall lose the kernel, unless the nut be broken. Hart. Why? What do you think S. jerom meant by it? Rainoldes. I know not, I assure you: unless he meant, as one, (I know not the man, but they name him 1 Maximus Papa in ep ist. ad Orientales: apud Turrecrematam in Summa de ecclesia lib. 2. cap. 107. father Maximus) expoundeth it, that Paul went to learn of Peter, and remained with him as it were in a School a certain number of days. I abode with him, saith Paul, fifteen days. 2 Per mysticum hebdoadis & octoadis numeram, veteris Testamenti simul et novi didicit sacramentum. By the mystical number of seven and eight, he learned both the old and the new Testament. Hart. And what do you say of this exposition? Rainoldes. I say that father Maximus did dote when he made it. For by this reason Paul should have learned the gospel of Peter: which the Scripture denieth, protesting, i Gal. 1.12. that he neither received it of man, neither was taught it, but by the revelation of jesus Christ. And if you desire candlelight at noon day to help the brightness of the Sun shining in his strength: you may know that the Fathers, l Exposit. epist. ad Gal. cap. 1. Not that he might learn the Gospel by Peter, but that he might increase brotherly love with bodily acquaintance, saith Austin on this place. And as Austin, so the ●est, to like effect, in their commentaries on the epistle to the Galatians. Austin, Chrysostom, Ambrose, Theodoret, jerom, and m Theophy lactus, and Oecumenius. others, affirm the same precisely, that Paul came to Peter, not to learn of him, but of a reverence, and love, to be acquainted with him. As for jerom, who seemeth (in the epistle which you mention) to think otherwise, against the scripture & himself: no marvel, if sometimes he went out of the way through a liking of allegories, as a great reader & follower of Origen, * De principiis lib. 4. cap. 2. who handled the scriptures too licentiously, with wandering mystical senses. n Hieron. praefat. comment. in Abdiam prophet. Himself, when he was grown to be of riper judgement, acknowledged an oversight of his 1 In adolescentia mea. youth herein: confessing, that (by travailing after 2 Mysticos intellectus. mystical senses) he rashly followed 3 Allegoricé interpretatus Abdiam prophetam, cuius historiam nesciebam. allegories, in expounding a Prophet, whose literal sense he understood not. Hart. What soever it were that S. jerom meant, he meant a prerogative of Peter over Paul: which you may not avoid either by his youth, or by an allegory. For, he gave the like prerogative to Peter, without an allegory, in his old age, upon the manifest words of Paul: o Gal. 2.1. I went up saith Paul, to jerusalem by revelation and conferred with them the Gospel, which I preach among the Gentiles: but particularly with them that were the chief, lest perhaps I should run, or had run in vain. Paul, saith S. p Ad Aug●stin. epist. 11. inter ep. August. jerom, had not had security of preaching the Gospel, unless it had been approved by the sentence of Peter, and of the rest, that were with him. Rainoldes. You are wont to lay it unto our charge, that we discover the nakedness of the Fathers. In deed, you are they, who entreat them so. Nay, you do not only discover their nakedness, but you blaze it out, and praise the beauty of their blemishes, and think them best clad where they are naked most. For what a speech is this, which you allege of jerom, that Paul had not had security of preaching the Gospel, unless Peter had approved it. What? Was he called by q Gal. 1. ver. 1. God to preach the Gospel, and durst he not do it, except men did like it? And when r ver. 12. Christ had taught it him by revelation was he not sure of it, but by conference with Peter? And had he preached it s ver. 18. & Gal. 2. ver. 1. almost twenty years, and was he now afraid lest he had preached falsely. Hart. S. jerom saith not so: but that he had not had security of preaching it, unless it had been approved by the rest, with whom he did confer of it. Rainoldes. S. jerom saith not so: but that he had not had security. Then S. jerom saith so, in that he saith not so: and you unsay in one word, that which you say in an other. For what is it else not to have security of preaching the Gospel: then to be afraid either of his doctrine, that it is not true; or of his fact, that it is not lawful? Hart. Why doth t Gal. 2.2. the scripture then report of S. Paul that he conferred with them, lest he should run, or had run in vain. Rainoldes. Because many Christians, whom Paul had preached the Gospel too, began to be seduced by false Apostles of the jews: u Gal. 1.7. & 5.2. who taught them, that except they kept the law of Moses, they could not be saved. And to win credit to their heretical doctrine, that the hearers might receive it the sooner for the authority of the teachers: they said, it was the doctrine of Peter, and the rest, the chief of the Apostles, the pillars of the Church. As for Paul, who taught the contrary thereof: they disgraced him, as one that was crept into the Apostleship after them; and having learned the gospel of them, which he preached, yet dissented from them in the preaching of it. Which speeches of seducers, if they had believed, whom Paul either should or had already preached the Gospel unto: x 2. Cor. 11.3. then should they have fallen away with minds corrupted from the simplicity, that is in Christ, and Paul have lost his labour, and run in vain, as he speaketh, that is to say, without profit, without the y Rom. 1.13. fruit of that he ran for. As Christ complaineth in z Esay 49.4. the Prophet, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing: because he was not received of the jews, to whom he preached the word of life. Wherefore Paul, desirous, as a careful husbandman, to reap where he had sown: did seek to root out the weeds of false Apostles, that did or might hinder the growth of the corn. In which consideration, having showed, first, touching his authority, a Gal. 1. ver. 1. that he had it not of men, nor by man, but by God: next, touching his doctrine, b ver. 12. that he learned it of Christ, not of the Apostles: touching his dissension from them, he showeth last, c Gal. 2.2. that he went and conferred with the chief of them, even james, Peter, and john, who were accounted to be pillars, that they might witness their consent, and make his preaching to be fruitful, and stop the mouths of false Apostles. All this S. jerom saw, and taught, d In epist. ad Gal. cap. 1. & 2. in his commentaries on Paul to the Galatians: where he advised better of Paul's intent, and drift, and sifted all the points and circumstances of the text. The words which you stand on, were uttered less advisedly by him, in e De Petro repre henso a Paulo. Epist. 11. inter epist. August. an epistle written to S. Austin: against whom, to justify his opinion, (though false,) that Peter's fault at Antioch was no fault in deed, nor Paul reproved him in earnest, he saith, for the credit of one above the other, Paul had not had security of preaching the Gospel, unless that Peter had approved it. Wherefore I may justly speak in his excuse (at the least, to soften the hardness of his speech) the same which f Epist. 64. Basil said in excuse of Gregory, that his words were uttered * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not by way of doctrine, but of contention; rather to maintain his quarrel against Austin, then to deliver his judgement of the matter; as writing of affection more what he fancied, then of discretion what he thought. Whereof there appeareth as it were a print even in his own words. For he doth mention Peter by name, (of whom he did contend with Austin,) and none of the rest: whereas the Scripture nameth no more him than others; but g Gal. 2. ver. ●. first saith (in general) of Paul, that he conferred with them that were the chief; and h ver. 9 after (in particular) of james, Peter and john, that they were counted to be pillars. Thus, neither did Paul confer with Peter only, but with james and john, and therefore it proveth no supremacy of Peter, more than of james and john; and, although he had, yet were it a token (by Ieromes own judgement) that Paul was Peter's equal; not Peter his superior. For, * Inter confer●tes aequalitas est. Hieron. in epist. ad Galat▪ cap. 2. there is equality between them (saith jerom) who confer together. I would to God, M. Hart, if you will needs follow S. jeroms authority, yet you would follow him in the best things: and what you say with error in heat of contention, you would amend by truth in judgement of doctrine. But that which is written of gifts and rewards, i Deut 16.19. they blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the just: is no truer in judges and arbiters of civil causes, then in you and * The Remist●, who press these places, of jerom, touching the mystery of fifteen days, and security of preaching the Gospel: as the former also of Tertullian, touching duty▪ of Ambrose, and Chrysostom, touching honour, and the force of the Greek word (to see:) with the circumstances of majesty, and so far, and notwithstanding his great affairs Ecclesiastical: in their annot. on the Epist. to the Galat. chap. 1. and 2. yours who meddle with the decision of spiritual matters. The gifts, which partly the policy of the Pope hath entertained you with, in his Seminaries, and affairs; partly the state of the Papacy doth yield to such as speak things pleasing him: they do blind your eyes, and pervert your words, that you think darkness to be light, and light, darkness; and call evil good, and good evil. They make you not to see in Paul to the Galatians his direct purpose of overthrowing that, which you would have him build. They move you to deprave the circumstances of his words, as though he proved himself inferior to Peter in that by which he proveth himself not inferior. They stir you to transform his summission into subjection: and to abuse the spirit of his apostolic modesty to the raising up of the Papal pride and pomp of the supremacy. Paul went to see Peter with a desire of knowing him, which the Greek word importeth: as they use (saith z In epist. ad Galat. cap. 1. Chrysostom) to speak, who go to see great and famous cities. You can not see that Chrysostom saith (on the same place) that Paul 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. was Peter's equal in dignity, to say no more: but you take this note of his, & puff it up with the word of Majesty; thereby to make the simple reader to conceive, that Peter was as stately as * The Pope. he to whom 2 Maiestate tua. Paul. Manut. Epist. lib. 8. ad Pium quart. Pontisicem maximum. that term is used. Paul went to jerusalem k Act. 9.26 from the city of Damascus: not much above a hundred miles. You say he went, so far, so long a journey: as though it had been no less than hence to go to the court of Rome, which * c. Ego N. Episcopus. extra. de jure iurando. Limina Apostolorum singulis annis per me aut per certum nuntium visitabo, nisi eorum absoluar licentia: sic me Deus adiwet & haec sancta evangelia. Bishops do to the Pope, not of their own accord (as Paul,) but enforced thereto by solemn oath; not twice in seventeen years (as Paul,) but every year once, by themselves, or by their messengers, unless the Pope dispense with them. But of all the rest, that passeth, that you say he went to jerusalem, to see Peter, notwithstanding his great affairs ecclesiastical. Here was art, by the way, to show, that Bishops may neglect their own charge to go to see the Pope, under the colour of Paul's example. And to hide this art, it was an other point of art: if it be known, it is nought worth. For what were these great affairs ecclesiastical, which Paul omitted to see Peter? Forsooth, l Act. 9.24. at Damascus the jews lay in wait, and watched the gates of the city day and night that they might kill him: in so much that he was feign to be conveyed away by the wall in the night time, the disciples letting him down in a basket; and so he scaped to jerusalem. These are the affairs, the great affairs ecclesiastical, the which notwithstanding, Paul went from Damascus to jerusalem to see Peter. Wherein, he had a reverent regard to the supremacy of Peter, as you say: as * Greg. Martin in his treatise of Christian peregrination. a friend of yours saith, he went in pilgrimage to Peter. Whether of you apply the place to better purpose, and fit for the text: it may be a question. But in show it seemeth to make more for pilgrimage, then for the supremacy. Hart. See, what wrong you do to that learned man. He saith, that when Paul went to see Peter, he made a certain pilgrimage: and you report him to have said, that he went in pilgrimage. Rainoldes. He made a certain pilgrimage: I cry you mercy. I thought he would have proved that kind of pilgrimage which our Church reproveth: and so he meant to do; at least, he pretended it. But, in proving it, he dallieth (like a Sophister) with a certain pilgrimage, such as our Church alloweth. You might as well say, that I came from Oxford in pilgrimage to you: in a certain pilgrimage. And he was overseen, that amongst examples of pilgrimage in scripture, he did not mention m Gen. 47.9. jacob: who saith that he spent his life time in pilgrimage; yea, and that his fathers spent in their pilgrimages longer time than he. But whatsoever show the fact of Paul hath for a certain pilgrimage, in that he went to see Peter: it hath no show at all for Peter's supremacy. Nay, the whole discourse of Paul in that point, doth drive flat against it: as it hath appeared (in * Chap. 3. Diuis. 1. part thereof) already. Wherefore, you were abused by them who sent you thither. You should have done better to have contained yourself within the Acts of the Apostles. And if your two places, in the first, and the fifteenth, had not force enough to prove that which you would: you might in steed thereof have taken two other, out of the eight, & the eleventh, which have force enough to prove that which you should. For, in the one, n Act. 8.14. the Apostles which were at jerusalem, sent Peter and john to the people of Samaria, to strengthen them in the faith through the gift of the holy Ghost. In the other, o Act. 11.3. the Apostles and brethren that were in jury called Peter to an account (when he had preached to Cornelius,) why he went in to men uncircumcised, and did eat with them. Hart. Alack, you imagine, that the Apostles had equal power with Peter, because they sent him abroad in commission, and asked him a count of that which he did. Poor reasons: God wot. For an inferior may entreat his superior to do his business for him. And specially a body politic or a corporation may choose their head and send him: as Citizens may send their Mayor to the Prince, or Parliament, though he be head of the City because he may be more fit to do their business. And as they may send him, so may they ask a reason of that which he hath done, and call him to account of it. Ween you, that the Cardinals may not entreat the Pope to do this or that, which shall be convenient for the commodity of the Church? Or, that the Pope will think his state to be abased, if they inquire of him why he doth this or that? Perhaps you ween so, because you know neither the Pope, nor the Cardinals. But what say you then to your own selves? Do not your seniors in Corpus Christi College send abroad your Precedent about your College business? Doth he not give you an account of those things which he hath done? Or, if he give it not, may you not ask it of him? And is he therefore not your head? Rainoldes. Yes, he is our head: but he is such a head, that your head of Rome had rather you should lose your head, than you should so behead his power. I told you so much * In the first Division of this chapter. before in effect: and made it plain unto you by Duarens similitude of the Precedent of a court of Parliament in France, named the head of the court. You might have conceived the same of our Precedent: and thought his headship as unfit for the proof of your purpose, as you thought the other. For he is bound to statutes: by them we send him out, and ask account of that he doth. No statutes bind your Pope: but his lust is his law; and what he will, that is holy. We may deprive our Precedent if he should commit any heinous crime, as murder, or adultery. Your Pope, although he be as wilful a murderer, and as notorious an adulterer as Pope p Luit prand. Ticin histor. rer. per Europe. gestar. lib. 6. cap. 6.7. & 8. john the twelfth, yea, though he be taken in most horrible incests, and villainies of all sorts: yet a Council may not depose him, no not the Emperor with a Council. It is true that Otho the Emperor did depose him in a Council assembled of purpose thereunto. But your * Cardinal Turrecremata: and Father Robert the jesuit. Doctors tell us that the Emperor did it q Turrecremata. in sum. de eccles. lib. 2. cap. 103. de facto, not de iure; r Robert. Bellarmin. controvers. 4. part. 1. quaest 5. of a good zeal, not according to knowledge. Wherefore I would not have you to use these similitudes, of Precedents in Colleges, & Mayors in Cities, & heads in Corporations. Or, if you will use them, yet use them to the simple, whom such similitudes may deceive: but use them not to us, who see the dissimilitude of them, and can (by God's grace) discern a fish from a serpent. Do you think yourself, I pray, in good sooth, that Peter (in the Acts of the Apostles) was as Pope, and the rest of the Apostles as the College of Cardinals? Hart. Why ask you me that? as though I spoke not what I thought. Rainoldes. It would be strange news to hear that the Cardinals should send the Pope in Embassage, (& make him as it were Legate a latere,) chief, to pray for men converted to the faith of Christ, and to preach unto them. The College of the Apostles sent Peter s Act▪ 8. ver. 15.17. & 25. to do these things. You seem to say, they did it by entreaty; be it: and, as a corporation may send their head about their business, because he is more fit to do it. But might the College of Cardinals send the Pope abroad by the like entreaty? Unless perhaps you make this difference between them: that in other corporations the head sometimes is fit; but the Pope is fit for no business of the Church, than any of his corporation. Howbeit, even of that too, it followeth in part, that Peter was not thoroughly as Pope in the former point. As for the later, of calling him to account: although your good weening of the Pope persuadeth you, that he would not think his state to be abased if the Cardinals should ask him why he doth this or that: yet they who knew him better a great deal, than you, and loved him so well that they would not bely him, do witness, not only by word but by writing, that he will not be dealt withal by his inferiors, as Peter was by the Apostles. I mean not your Canonists: in whose t c. ad Apostolatus. Extravagant. Ne sede vacant. In glossa. gloze it goeth for a famous rule, that none may say unto the Pope, 4 Domine, cur ita facis? Sir, why do you so? But I mean the learnedst and best of your Divines: who setting the Church above the Pope in authority, mislike that the Pope will not be subject to the Council. Of whom (to name one for many) john Ferus, a Friar of S. Francis order, but godlier than * Such as Buchanan describeth in his Franciscanus. the common sort, entreating (in his Commentaries written on the Acts) of the example of Peter, how he was required to render a reason of that which he had done, maketh this note upon it. u Ferus in Act. Apost. cap. 11. Peter the Apostle, and chief of the Apostles, is constrained to give an account to the Church, neither doth he disdain it: because he knew himself to be not a Lord, but a minister of the Church. The Church is the Spouse of christ and lady of the house: Peter a servant and minister. Wherefore the Church may, not only exact an account of her ministers, but also depose them & reject them altogether, if they be not fit. * Sic So did they 1 olim of old time, 2 quámsaepissime actum est very often, 3 in Concilijs. in Counsels. But 4 In pij Pontifices wicked Bishops, 5 nunc now, 6 ne ab Ecclesia quidem argui & in ordinem cogi volunt. will not be reproved, no not of the Church, nor be ordered by it: as though they were Lords, not ministers. Therefore 7 justo Dei judicio ab omnibus et singulis confunduotur. they are confounded of all and each in several, by the just judgement of God. Do you know what Bishops they be, who refuse to be subject to the Church? Who say, they are above the Council? Who may judge all, and none may judge them? This Preacher, a Preacher of your own, not ours, doth call them wicked Bishops. The Lord of his mercy make his words a prophecy: that those wicked Bishops may be confounded of all and each in several, by the just judgement of God. Hart. You bring me words of Ferus, which were not his, perhaps, but thrust into his commentaries before they came unto the print, by some malicious heretic. For u Biblioth. sanctae lib. 6. annotat. 72. Sixtus Senensis saith, that there are witnesses of very good credit, who avouch that the commentaries of Ferus upon Matthew were corrupted by heretics, after his death, before they were printed. Rainoldes. Sixtus saith in deed of his Commentaries upon Matthew, that they were corrupted, chief in a Commentar. in Matt. lib. 3. that place, where Ferus speaketh of the keys that Christ did promise Peter. For there is set down, as a special note, that Christ saith to Peter, * Tibi dabo cla●es regni coelorum: non dicit, regni terrarum. I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: he saith not, the keys of the kingdom of earth. These words pertain nothing to an earthly power: which yet some endeavour by them to establish, affirming that Peter received fullness of power not only in spiritual things, but also temporal. And after declaration, how this is plainly reproved by S. b De considerate. ad Eugen. lib. 1. Bernard, writing to Pope Eugenius: it is added farther. Peter received the keys, that is to say, power: not an earthly power, that he might give and take away dominions and kingdoms: neither such a power that it should be lawful for him to do what he list, (as many men dream,) but he received the power of binding and losing, opening & shutting, remitting and retaining sins: neither this at his pleasure, but as a minister and servant, doing the will of his Lord. And these are the words, which savour so strongly of an heretical spirit, that Sixtus saith, it is avouched by credible witnesses, the commentaries of Ferus on Matthew were corrupted, after his death, by heretics, Praesertim hoc loco: saith Sixtus Senensis. chief in this place, before they were printed. Wherein both the witnesses, & Sixtus (in my judgement) have showed themselves wise. For it is better to bear men in hand that heretics corrupted the commentaries of Ferus, chiefly in this place: than it should be thought that the strongest hold of all your religion [the Popes supreme power to give and take away kingdoms] is shaken by a man so learned, so famous, so Catholic, as Ferus. But Sixtus saith not of his Commentaries on the Acts, that they were corrupted also by heretics. Yet some heretics hand may seem to have been in them, chiefly in this place: where he doth reprove the arrogancy of the Popes, and nameth them wicked Bishops. Wherefore it would do well, that the oversight of Sixtus, herein, were mended by some other Sixtus: who might say as much of Ferus on the Acts, as Sixtus saith of him on Matthew. Perhaps you have not witnesses, that will avouch this, as some avouched that. The least matter of a thousand. For two or three such as 1 Popish Chronicle writers. Surius, Pontacus, and Genebrardus, men that have sold themselves to make lies in the defence of Popery, will be ready (on the credit of a 2 Two knights of the post. Lindan or Bolsecke,) not only to say it but to Chronicle it too. Here is all the difficulty, that x Ferns in Acta Apost. Coloniae. 1567. apud haeredes Arnoldi Birckman cum privilege. Caes. Mayest. In Matthaeum, Maguneiae, 1559. apud Franciscum Behem cum privilegio Caesar. Mayest & Regis Gallorum. these books are printed thus amongst yourselves: who set them forth first, and we receive them at your hands. A great fault, I know not whether of printers, or censors and allowers of books to the print: who suffer such scandalous places to be printed. Yea y In Acta Apost. Parisiis, 1568. apud Sonnium cum privilege. Regis & Caesar. Mayest. & Coloniae, 1577. apud Geruin. Calen. & haeredes Quent. In Matthaeum, Lugduni 1562. apud haeredes▪ juntae: & Antuerpiae, 1570. apud Philip. Nutium. to be printed so still: specially when Sixtus Senensis hath said and credible witnesses have avouched that heretics did corrupt them. No, no, M. Hart, it is too stolen a jest to say that heretics have corrupted the commentaries of Ferus. For the abomination of the Pope's supremacy, oppressing both the magistracy of the common wealth, and ministery of the Church, is grown to such outrage: that if we (whom you call heretics) should hold our peace, the stones would cry against it. Hart. What needs all this of Ferus? Or Sixtus? Or canonists? Or I know not who? You called me to the scriptures, when I brought the Fathers: and now from the scriptures you bring me to writers of our own age. Rainoldes. Not from the scriptures to them: but to the scriptures by them. As Christ, when the Phariseis slandered his works, z Mat. 12.27. alleged the example of their own children thereby to make them see the truth. And as he said to them, therefore your children shall be your judges: so I say to you, therefore your brethren shall be your judges. Hart. I grant that the Pope doth not in all respects submit himself, as Peter, to give account of his doings, both to the Apostles, and to inferior Christians. But Ferus should have considered, and so must you, that the times are not like. It were not convenient for him to do so now. Rainoldes. So I thought: the case is altered. You mean by [the times,] the men, who live in the times, I trow. In deed they are not like. For Peter was then a preacher of the Gospel, as Pastors are now: and the Pope now is a Prince of the world, as Nero was then. The fifth Chapter. The Father's 1 are no touchstone for trial of the truth in controversies of religion, but the Scripture only. 2 Their writings are corrupted: and counterfeits do bear their names. 3 The sayings, alleged out of their right writings, prove not the pretended supremacy of Peter. HART. The first Division. What soever difference there is between the Pope & Peter in state, and power of worldly government: yet Peter had the same authority and primacy over the Apostles, which the Pope claimeth over all Bishops. And this (because you will not yield unto the Scriptures) I will prove by the Fathers: whose testimonies of it are most clear and evident. Rainoldes. Whether I, or you, refuse to yield unto the scriptures: let the godly judge. As for the Fathers: I like your dealing well, in part. For I wished, that first you would go through with the Scriptures: and then (when you had found nothing in them) come to the Fathers afterward. But I wish further, if I might obtain it, that you had the Scriptures in such price and honour, as the word of God: that no word of men should be matched with them to build your faith upon. For God hath given his word to be a Ps. 119.105. a lantern to our feet, and a light to our path: that we may see the way to heaven, and walk in it. And b 2. Tim 3.15. the holy Ghost saith, that the Scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation: wise, by instructing us in the faith of Christ; unto salvation, by leading us to c joh. 20.31. life through that faith. Wherefore sith we confer about a point of wisdom pertaining unto faith and life: you should do very well to rest on the Scriptures as the only touchstone for trial of the truth therein. Hart. Now at length I hear that, which I looked for. I thought, for all your dutiful words of the Fathers, that you would come over to the Scriptures only, before you made an end. Rainoldes. Why? Is my behaviour toward men undutiful: because I am dutiful unto God above them? Hart. There is a worthy treatise of an ancient writer, Vincentius Lirinensis, * Aduersus profanas ommium haerese●n novationes. against the profane innovations of all heresies, d Bristol, Motiu. 14. a passing fine book: e The preface of the Motives. which it is wished that all such should read, as will know the truth. You have read it perhaps: and what think you of it? Is it not f Staplet. princ. doctr. lib. 10. cap 11. a golden book? Rainoldes. The book is good enough, if it have a wise reader. Hart. Say you so? Yet some there be of your side, who are afraid of the name of Vincentius Lirinensis. Rainoldes. They are worse afraid than hurt, for any thing that I know. But what of Vincentius? Hart. He saith g Vincent. Lirin. cap. 35. it is so common a practice of heretics to allege the scripture, that they never bring almost aught of their own, but they seek to shadow it with words of scripture too. And having showed this by sundry examples, he addeth that h cap. 37. therein they follow the practice of the Devil, their master. Who took our Saviour Christ, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the son of God, cast thyself down: For it is written, that he will give his Angels charge over thee, that they shall keep thee in all thy ways: with their hands they shall lift thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. If thou, saith he, be the son of God, cast thyself down. Why? For it is written. We must with great heed observe and remember the doctrine of this place: that when we see words of the Prophets or Apostles brought forth by any men against the Catholic faith, we way be assured by this great example of the authority of the Gospel, that the Devil doth speak by them. Thus saith that ancient Father, Vincentius Lirinensis. Whose words do manifestly disprove your opinion, that the truth of points in faith should be tried by the scripture only. Rainoldes. The * L. Inclu●●e. Dig. de legib. Senatusque consult. civil law saith, that it is uncivil, for a man, not having weighed the whole law, to give advise or judgement, some one parcel of it being alone proposed. Your dealing with the words of Vincentius Lirinensis is guilty of this uncivility. For he, to instruct us, how we may continue sound in the faith, against the guiles of heretics and subtlety of Satan, who doth transform himself into an Angel of light: i Vincent. Lirin. cap. 36. teacheth that our Saviour hath to this intent both forewarned us of the danger, and foreshowed us a remedy. Forewarned us of the danger, in the precept that he gave: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. For what, saith he, is sheeps clothing, but the sincere and soft words of the Scripture, which are alleged by false prophets, as well as by the true? What are the ravening wolves, but the cruel meanings and senses of heretics, which, under sheeps clothing, do rend the flock of Christ? Foreshowed us a remedy, in the lesson that he adjoined: Ye shall know them by their fruits. That is to say, when they be give not only to allege those words but to expound them, and citing them as true prophets, do not interpret them as true prophets: then are the wolves seen by their teeth and ravening; then are their bloody natures known for all their fleeces; k cap. 37. then are the faithful teachers discerned from seducers, the true Apostles from the false, the Angel of light from the Angel of darkness, the ministers of righteousness from the ministers of Satan. Which things, set down and prosecuted more amply, and fully, he draweth in fine unto this conclusion, (the sum of all his treatise:) l cap. 38. & 41. that, although the scriptures alone be sufficient for all points of faith, yet is it not sufficient to have a show of the words, but we must also have the substance of the sense, that is, the true and natural meaning of the scriptures. Now, if this discourse of his be weighed whole, and not a parcel of it severed from the rest: what can you prove thereby, more than I will grant? Nay more than I have granted and proved already, m Chapt. 2. Division 2. when I showed that the right sense of the scripture expounded by the scripture, is the sword of God's spirit, wherewith all heresies must be vanquished. The Devil (you say) alleged the words of the scripture against Christ. He did so. Yet, he alleged them, not wholly & entirely, as Vincentius hath them: but, as n Matthew 4.6. and Luke 4.10 Both omitting and leaving the words (In all thy ways) out of the text of scripture (Psalm. 91.11.) which the Devil alleged. the Evangelists rehearse them, maimedly. Wherein, if Vincentius, observing the attempt that the Devil alleged the words of the scripture; had withal observed the subtlety of the tempter, how he alleged them: he might have better noted the deceits of heretics abusing scripture, than he did; and so have better fenced the right-beléeving Christians with power of scripture, than he hath. For he reporteth it so, as if the Devil had alleged that whole place of the scripture: He will give his Angels charge over thee, that they shall keep thee * In omnibus vijs tuis: which words are added by Vincentius, as if the Evangelists had not left them out. in all thy ways: with their hands they shall lift thee up, and so forth. Whereas the devil, alleging the rest, of charge given, to keep him and uphold him, left out of the middle words of keeping him [in all his ways:] because they made directly against that to which he did tempt Christ, as o Chapt. 2. Division 3. I have declared. Wherefore if Vincentius had thought, that the scripture is no sufficient stay for us against heretics, because it is alleged as well by false teachers, as it is by true, by the Devil as by Christ: he must have rather craved pardon, for not espying the policy of Satan; then liking, for impairing the credit of the word of God. But although he saw not all in particular: nevertheless in general he joineth with the truth. For p Vincent. Lirin. cap. 37. he saith that heretics follow the Devil, * Quotiescunque divinae legi● sententias proferunt quibus malé interpretatis errores suos astruere conentur. as oft as they bring forth sentences of scripture, by which being expounded amiss, they go about to maintain their errors. So that, the scripture, which heretics bring forth against the Catholic faith, is the scripture taken in a wrong sense, and misse-expounded, by his judgement. But I mean the scripture expounded aright, when I say that points of faith should be tried by the scripture only. The words of Vincentius therefore, which you cited, do rather prove that which I defend, then disprove it. Neither make they more against us than you: unless you beg all that which is in controversy, that Popery is the Catholic faith. For than you may conclude that we bring the scripture against the Catholic faith, when we bring it against Popery. An easy way to conquest, if begging can procure you that. But I mind not to give it: & right to it you have not. You must win it, if you will wear it. Hart. Whither that the faith of the Church of Rome, which you call Popery, be the Catholic faith or no: because it is the later part of our conference, concerning one faith; I will not confound it with this of one head. But what do you mean to say that the words of Vincentius, which I cited, disprove not your assertion, nor make against you more than us? when he saith, that heretics do allege the scripture, as also did the Devil: and you allege it too, and think it a sufficient fence of your opinions. Rainoldes. So do you allege it too: do you not? And what is there against us, in those words, more than against you? would you not laugh at me, if I should reason thus: Heretics allege scripture; so do the Papists too: therefore they are heretics? q Mat. 4.6.10 unam sanc●●m. Extra. De m●iorit. & obedientia. The Devil alleged scripture: so doth the Pope too: therefore he is the devils scholar? Hart. But we do not allege, only, the scripture: nor will be tried by it alone. The heretics appeal to nothing but to scripture: and the Devil alleged the scripture only against Christ. Rainoldes. This is more, than you ●●nde in the words of Vincentius: it is your own fancy. He saith, that heretics do allege the scripture: that, nothing else but it, he saith not. Neither could he have said so without a lie. For they allege many reasons beside the scripture, even whatsoever helpeth to countenance their errors: sometime the a Author operis imperfect. in Matt. hom. 48. Church, sometime b Iren. advers. haeres. lib. 3. ca 2. Tradition, sometime c Augustin. x Maximin. Arian. episcop. lib. 1. Counsels, sometime d De baptism. Contr. Donatist. lib. 3. cap. 2. Fathers, sometime e In johan. Tractat. 13. Miracles, sometime f De unitat. eccles. cap. 16. Visions, sometime g Epist. 165. ad Generosum. Succession of Bishops, sometime h Euseb. histor. eccles. li. 5. ca 14. Socrat. li. 4. c. 23. Theodoret. li. 1. ca 16. & caet. histor. ecclesiast. such other Motives, as your Bristol calleth them. Yea, they have greater advantage for their errors against the catholic faith, by these, then by scripture. For these may be truly alleged against it, as they have been often: the scripture can never, but falsely, and wrongfully. As for that the Devil alleged the scripture only, against Christ: you think his example discrediteth the trial of truth in points of faith by the scripture only. And so it may seem to a weak eye. But to such as mark it with a sharper sight, it doth confirm it rather. For i Gen. 3.1. that subtle serpent knowing what baits are fittest to take them, whom k 1. Pet. 5.8. as a roaring lion he seeketh to devour: is want to set upon men with those persuasions, which he is most likely to seduce them by. To one he promiseth l Gen. 3.5. knowledge of good and evil, as to Eve; an other he hardeneth with m Exod. 7.22. lying wonders, as Pharaoh; the prophet he telleth of n 1. King. 13.18. an Angel's speech; the king he deceiveth by o 2. Chron. 18.11. the consent of false prophets; to the jews he pretendeth p jer. 7.4. the temple of the Lord; to the Heathens he showeth q Act. 19.27. universality and r Act. 17.19. antiquity: in a word he leaveth s Deut. 13.2. 1. King. 18.28. jer. 23.25. joh. 7. ver. 42. & 48. & 52. 2. Thess. 2.9. 1. Tim. 4.2. and so forth in the rest of the Scriptures. no means unattempted whereby he may entangle the souls of mankind, and wrap them in the snares of death. Wherefore, as in his instruments he useth other Motives to prevail with others: so himself of likelihood would have used them specially to Christ, and not the scripture only, had he not known, that only scripture (if any thing) would prevail with him. Stapleton, intending to persuade us, that Peter, and (by reason of Peter) the Pope is supreme head of the Church: t Princip. doctrine. lib. 6. in praefat. saith that he will prove it 1 Sola ea, quae ex scripturis sacris peti potest demonstratione. by only demonstration out of the scriptures, in effect, and that 2 Ex solis scriptures. by only scriptures it may be proved fully enough and abundantly. Is not this a token, that we, whom he seeketh to win by his persuasions, will not be won thereto, but only by the scriptures? So the devils practice in alleging scripture only to Christ, is a great presumption, that Christ accounted nothing a ground of faith and duty, but only the scripture. Whereof a surer argument is the whole behaviour of Christ against the Devil: whom u Matt. 4. ver. 4. & 7. & 10. in every one of his three temptations he put to flight still with scripture, It is written. And although the Devil (to drive him from that hold) alleged scripture also: yet Christ replied not with * Matt. 22.9. Fathers or Doctors, or Rabbins of the Synagogue, but with the word of his heavenvly Father; and, against the maimed & wrested words of scripture, he set the scripture alleged rightly. Wherefore let x As Bristol doth, in his Motives to the Catholic faith. Motiu. 48. your Captains instruct their soldiers as they list, to get us into the plain fields of their Motives, out of our weak and false castle of only scripture, as * Richard Bristol Priest, Licentiat in Divinity. a Licentiat termeth it: the action of Christ is the instruction of Christians; the Prince of darkness, could not get him out of that, neither shall the Prince's band get out us. Nay, that this castle (how weak and false soever falseharted weaklings count it,) hath ordinance enough to shake your Motives into fitters, and can alone subdue all adversary powers: I need not the practice of Christ, and word of God, against you, to prove it. Your own golden author, Vincentius Lirinensis, saith it. For himself affirmeth that y Vincent. Lirin. cap. 2. & 41. scripture is sufficient alone, against heretics, so that it be taken in the right sense. But scripture is not scripture, unless it be taken in the right sense: in the which alone 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. Tim. 3.16. it came from God by inspiration, and is 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. jam. 1. ●8 the word of God. Wherefore, if you will take the gold of Vincentius, you must grant, that scripture alone is sufficient to try the truth from error, and to maintain the Catholic faith against heresy. Hart. You do not deal well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius. For z Vincent. Lirin. cap. 1. he setteth down two means, by the which we must fence our faith against the guiles of heretics, & eschew their snares: 1 Primò, divinae legis autoritate. first, by the authority (saith he) of the scripture; 2 Deinde, ecclesi ae catholicae traditione. then, by the tradition of the catholic Church. You leave out altogether that which he saith of tradition▪ and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture only. Rainoldes. It is not your purpose, (I hope) to beguile me by the colour of his words. It may be, that yourself are beguiled in them. For a Vincent. Lirin. cap. 2. he, by [the tradition of the catholic church] meant the true and right exposition of the scripture, made by faithful pastors and teachers of the church: as his own words immediately show. And this I made mention of, in that I said, that 1 Perfectus scripturarum canon. scripture is sufficient alone against heretics 2 Vt Propheticae & Apostolicae interpretationis linea secundum ecclesiastici & catholici sensus normam dirigatur. if it be taken in the right sense; the catholic sense he calleth it. You seem to imagine, that he meant by the word, [tradition,] unwritten verities, as they have been termed, or as you term them now, b Concil. Trident. Sess. 4. traditions: which the Trent-Councell doth account as much of, as of scriptures, and coupleth them together to make a sufficient & perfect rule of truth: as though that only scriptures were insufficient for it. Which error was so far from the mind of Vincentius, that c Vincent. Lirin. cap. 2. & 41. he saith expressly, that he doth not add the tradition of the Church, to the authority of the scriptures, as though that 1 Scripturarum canon the scriptures were not themselves 2 Solus alone 3 Sufficit sufficient 4 Ad omnia for all things, yea 5 Satis superque. more than sufficient: but to show, that, because heretics do wrest and misse-expound the scriptures, therefore we must learn their right sense and meaning, delivered to the godly by the ministry of the Church. In which consideration, as S. Paul writeth, that he did d 1. Cor. 15.3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. deliver according to the scriptures the things which he taught, and thereupon nameth his doctrine, e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. Thess. 2.15. traditions, as you would say, things delivered: so Vincentius mentioneth both the Church's f Cap. 1. & 4●. Ecclesiae traditionem, & interpretationem. tradition, to note the ministery of the Church delivering the sense of scriptures; and the Church's g Ecclesiae traditiones, & catholici dogmatis regulas. Cap. 38. traditions, to signify the rules of faith, according whereunto the scriptures are expounded, (as h Chapt. 2. Division 2. I have showed) by scriptures. Wherefore, the words that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition, and traditions, of the Church: do join hands with that which I did deliver of the truth (in points of faith) to be tried by the scripture only. Hart. You may not carry so the words of Vincentius away in a cloud. For, though he may seem to have meant in general by [the tradition of the Church] the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholic sense, which the Pastors of the Church deliver: yet coming to particulars he frameth that rule, not out of the scriptures, but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion. For, i Vincent. Lirin▪ cap. 38. he asketh himself, when heretics pretend scriptures, what shall the Catholics do? How shall they discern the truth from falsehood in the scriptures? Whereto he maketh answer, that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church: and therein they must follow, universality, antiquity, consent. By the which k cap. 3▪ and 4. threefold means to try the truth, he instructeth us that we must hold that, which the church of our time doth hold through all the world universally. If a part of Christendom divide and cut itself from the faith of the whole: then are we bound to follow the whole, and not the part. If the whole in our time be stained with any error: then must we have respect to the former time, and cleave to antiquity. If all in antiquity agreed not about it: then look too consent; as, what a generalll Council did decree thereof; or, if no such decree be, what all the Father's thought, or if not all, what the most, even they who continued in the faith and fellowship of the Catholic Church. And whatsoever we find that not one, or two, but all with one consent have held, written, taught, plainly, commonly, continually: let us be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt. Thus Vincentius showeth how he would have the truth to be tried by the church: if the church be sound, by the universality of our own time: if that be corrupt, by the antiquity of the former time; if that be at variance, by the consent of all, or most of the Fathers. Wherefore if you will stand unto his judgement, to which you give countenance as though you liked it: you must not call the trial of truth in religion to the scriptures only, but to the consent of the Fathers rather. Rainoldes. I liked his judgement in the general point, touching the sufficiency and perfectness of scriptures: which (I know) you like not, though you make greater semblance of liking him, than I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat, let the blame be laid upon the blameworthy: not me, who stand to that which he hath spoken well; but him, who falleth from it. For, laying his foundation as it were, on a rock: he buildeth up his house beside it, on the sand. That scripture is sufficient, alone, against heretics, so that it be taken in the right sense, expounded by the rules of the Catholic faith: this hath he well avouched, as on the rock of God's word. But, that the rules of faith, and sense of the scripture must be tried and judged by the consent, antiquity, and universality of the Church: this hath he added not so well, as on the sand of men's opinions. The difference of the points may be perceived by S. Austin: who joining in the former of them with Vincentius, doth leave him in the later. For 1 In his book entitled De doctrina Christiana: as it is ●●ewed before, Chapt. 2. Diuis. 2. Austin, as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholic meaning of the scripture: so teacheth he that this must be known and tried by the scripture itself, the infallible rule of truth; not by the fickle minds of men. And, to have taught hereof as Austin doth, it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius: which maketh 2 Scripturarum canon solus sibi sufficit ad universa. Vincent. cap. 41. the rule of scriptures, alone, sufficient for all things. But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians, have not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong: therefore he, tempering himself to their infirmity, doth give them outward sensible marks to know it by. Wherein he dealeth with them, as if a Philosopher, having said that a man is areasonable creature, should, because his scholars cannot discern of reason (whereof the show is such in many brute beasts, that l Lactant. de ira Dei cap. 7. Plutarch. in opusc. quod brat. anim. ration. utantur. some have thought them reasonable) describe him more plainly by outward marks, and accidents, as namely, that he hath two feet, and no feathers. They report, that m Diogen. Laert. de vit. philosopho●. lib. 6. Plato defined a man so: a man, is a living creature, twofooted, un-feathered. For which definition when he was commended, Diogenes took a Capon: and having plucked his feathers off, did bring him in to the school of Plato, saying, This is Plato's man. The holy word of God is the same in the Church, that reason is in a man. Whereupon we give it for an essential mark (as I may term it) of the Church, by which the Church is surely known and discerned. But the show of God's word is such in many heretics, (as of reason in brute beasts,) that some, who have no skill to discern that mark, do think it impossible to know the Church by it. n The authors of the Romane-Dictates. Controu. 1. quaest. 3. The discovery of Nicols▪ part. 3. Bristol, in his Motives and Demands. Your fellows hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidental marks: as namely, by antiquity, succession, consent. These are very plausible, and many do commend them highly. But he that hath half an eye of a Philosopher, I mean a wise Christian: need not play Diogenes in plucking feathers off, to show that these marks may agree to a capon. Now, as they deal with the marks of the Church: so do you, M. Hart, with the marks of the truth. Not Vincentius, but you, who cover your errors with the name of Vincentius: and take things, as necessary, and sure proofs of truth, which he did note, as probable, and likely tokens of it only. For he delivered them, not as never failing, but as holding often: and such, as albeit they do hit sometimes, yet do they miss sometimes also. Whereof himself is witness, in that he disproveth them: the first, universality, by the example of the o Vincent. 〈◊〉 cap. 6. Arians, and p cap. 4. flieth from it to antiquity: the second, antiquity, by the example of the q cap. 5. & 11. Donatists, and r cap. 4. flieth from it to consent. Hart. But the third, consent, s cap. 4. he speaketh of as never failing; as a necessary token, to know and try the truth by; as an essential mark, and proper to the points of Catholic faith and truth. And this is the mark which chief I regarded when I alleged Vincentius: that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers. Rainoldes. In deed he preferreth this mark before the rest, as having held when they failed. Nevertheless he speaketh not so of it neither, as that it may serve for trial and decision of questions between us. For what doth he acknowledge to be a point approved, & such as we are bound to believe, by this mark? Even 1 Qui●quid omnes parite● uno eo demque consensu. that, which the Fathers all with one consent, have held, written, taught, plainly, commonly, continually. And who can avouch of any point in question, that not one or two, but all the Fathers held it; nor only held it, but also wrote it; nor only wrote it, but also taught it; not darkly, but plainly; not seldom, but commonly; not for a short season, but continually. Which so great consent is partly so rare, and hard to be found; partly so unsure, though it might be found: that t cap. ●● himself (to fashion it to some use and certainty,) is feign to limit and restrain it. First, for the matters: that we are to seek and follow their consent 2 Non in omnibus divinae legis quaestiunculis. not in all little questions of the scripture, but in the weighty points of faith. Then, for the persons: that we must follow all, 3 Vel omnes, vel plures. or the greater part; because, in many points, all of them consent not. Finally (which cometh nearest to our purpose,) he granteth that there may such heresies arise, as must be dealt withal by the scripture only, and not by the Fathers. for, purposing to show both in what manner, and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers: he saith, and confirmeth, that 4 Neque semper neque omnes haereses hoc modo impugnandae sunt. neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort, nor always, but only such as are new and green: to weet, when first they spring up, before they have falsified the rules of ancient faith, the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it, and before (the poison spreading abroad farther,) they endeavour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers. But 5 Dilatatae & inveteratae haereses nequaquam hac via aggredien dae sunt: eo quod, prolixo temporum tractu, longa his ●urandae veritatis patuerit occasio. heresies that are spread abroad, and waxed old, must not be set upon in this sort; because they, by long continuance of time, have had long occasion to steal away the truth. And therefore whatsoever profanities there be, either of schisms, or heresies, that are waxed ancient: 6 Nullo modo ●os oportet. we must in no case deal otherwise with them, then either to convince them, (if it be needful,) by the 7 Sola Scripturarum autorita●●●. authority of scriptures only; or at the least avoid them, being of old time convicted and condemned already by the general counsels of Catholic Bishops. Lo, when heresies are grown to be in years ancient, and ample in places; when they have got antiquity, and universality: then must we fight against them, not by consent of Fathers, but by the authority of the scriptures only. This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis, in that passing fine book against the profane innovations of all heresies. Is it not a golden sentence? Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth, that heresies when they are spread far, The second Division. and have long continued, are to be confuted by the scriptures only, not by consent of Fathers: is that (which he doth point too) of endeavouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers; a common practice of heresies, if occasion and time serve them. But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deal with us by the consent of Fathers. For, neither are the doctrines which we profess, heresies, much less old and ample heresies, such as he speaketh of: nor have we endeavoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers, nay, we have kept them, and endeavour daily to set them forth most perfectly. But your heresies in deed, although they sprang of late, and may be counted new and green; yet have they endeavoured to corrupt the Fathers since, and have done it. * Torrensis pr●●fat. confess. Augustin. ad Lectorem. The practice of Erasmus is famous therein. Of whom to say nothing what censures have been given by other worthy men, whom Torrensis nameth: Marian Victorius, in Commentaries that he set forth upon the former three tomes of S. Jerome, reproveth most learnedly more than six hundred errors thrust into them by Erasmus, either in expounding, or ill correcting them. And Torrensis, in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin, declareth sundry books to be S. Augustine's own, which Erasmus had noted as falsely fathered on him. Wherefore, if by Vincentius you mind to touch them, who endeavour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers: cast out the beam out of your own eye, before you seek a m●at● in ours. Rainoldes. Yet you see by the way (though you make haste away from it) what rotten posts they be, whereon, as principal pillars, your church and faith is built, universality, antiquity, consent. Of which it is showed by Vincentius himself, that heresies may justly claim the two former, universality and antiquity: and make a fair challenge to the third, consent, in process of time; so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their purposes. But you may not be touched with any such suspicion. Why? Because the doctrines which you profess, are not old and ample heresies, you say, no not heresies; ours are so, not yours. Whether in opinions of faith and religion, which are in controversy between us, you or we do hold heresies: that is the point in question. Your, or mine; yea, or nay; is no sufficient proof of either. But of which soever it shall appear by conference that they are repugnant to the holy scriptures: let them be judged heresies; and the men, heretics, who stubbornly maintain them. Thus much you can not choose but grant, that your opinions are old, and spread abroad: for u Bristol Demand. 31 & 3●. you claim antiquity, & universality; whereof you say that our opinions have neither. It is more likely therefore, by Vincentius, that you, who * Prolixo temporum tractu, longa furandae veritatis occasio. by long continuance of time, have had long occasion to steal away the truth, should corrupt the Fathers, than we who have not had it. And in very truth, as the worship of Images, (the greatest abomination that first prevailed in Popery) was confirmed by 1 Scriptis admodum incertis & fabulosis. writings very uncertain and fabulous, yea by 2 Muliebribus somnijs. dreams of women, and 3 Daemonum ●pectris. visions of Devils in the x Action. 4. & 5. second Nicen Council; (as the thing itself, and y Adrianus posteá sextus Papa quod libe●. 6. Claudius' Espencaeus Parisiensis Theologus commentar. in poster. epist. ad Timoth. cap. 4. great Clerks of your own testify:) so the rest of your errors, which overflowed Christendom in darkness of superstition, have been most authorised by forged deeds, and bastard writings, begotten by some varlets, and fathered on the Doctors. The Schoolmen and Canonists, whose hands were chief in this iniquity, did bear the whole sway for many years together in Universities and Churches. The Doctors & Fathers were pretended much, but more pretended, then regarded: and their books corrupted, what through ignorance of scriveners, who copied them out before the use of printing, what through impudence of forgers, who coined counterfeits in their names. Now, when they lay thus distressed and diseased in the dust of Libraries: Erasmus, a man of excellent judgement, and no less industrious, then learned, and witty, did enterprise first to cure them, and brought them forth into the light. In the works of S. Jerome, which were most of all depraved above others, chief, the former tomes: he did what he could, both to cleanse them from blemishes, and to lighten them with his notes. z Erasm. praefat. ad Gulielm. Waram. archiep. Cantuar. He professed, that his conjectures in restoring of places had not satisfied himself always. He promised, that if any man should restore them better: he would both embrace his travail very gladly, and rejoice at the public profit. What sparkle of thankfulness, but I let go thankfulness, what sparkle of ingenuity was there, and good nature, in Marian Victorius: a Victor. praefat. ad Pium quart. in tres priores tomos Hieronymi. who requiteth such a work so carefully attempted, so painfully performed, so modestly excused, with the taunts and contumelies of erring, of lying, of craftiness of ignorance, of heresy, of impiety? b In reprehends. Sophistarum. Aristotle writeth of them, who begin a thing in points of learning, that although they seem to do less than others, who receive it of them, and after add thereto, yet they do more in deed: because the beginning of every thing is hardest, and it is easy to add. Whereupon, he craveth of such as he hath sought to benefit by his labour, thanks, for that he found; pardon, for that he miss. If Victorius have profited no better in the school of Christ, let him go to Aristotle: and learn, first, to think more humbly of himself; afterward, to deal more modestly with others. And you, who like of him, because he findeth fault with the doings of Erasmus; as a shoemaker did with the picture of Apelles, for missing in a shoo-latchet: may know, that 1 Displicuit permultis pierate & doctrina claris. good and learned men among yourselves have found fault with him, for being bold beyond the shoe. That doth c johan. Molanus, Censor Apostolicus et Regius: in Censura scholiorum Mar. Vict. Molanus witness, one of your chiefest Doctors and Censors of books: who (in S. Ieromes works, 2 Ex officina Christophori Plantini. anno Dom. 1578. set forth at Antwerp,) hath therefore circumcised the lips of Victorius. Hart. Molanus hath reproved and corrected him for uncivil speeches against the person of Erasmus, as wherein 3 Praeter Christianam modestiam. he passed the bounds of Christian modesty: not for oversight in that he laid errors to Erasmus charge. Though the special point for which we blame Erasmus, is not this so much of errors in S. Jerome. His censures on S. Austin are misliked most: in that he rejecteth sundry books as counterfeit, which Torrensis proveth to be S. Augustine's own. Whereof the importance and danger is the greater, because some will have nothing taken for S. Augustine's, but what Erasmus hath allowed. Rainoldes. Molanus did cover the sins of Victorius, when he found no other fault with his notes, but of uncivil speeches. If favour to the man, and fancy to the cause had not made him partial: he might have said of him, that as he passed the bounds of Christian modesty in 4 Not content to call him somniatorem, and haereticum: but he must ca● him also haereticorum omnium pessimum. railing at Erasmus person, so had he past the bounds of Christian truth in noting errors of Erasmus. But d Marian. Victorius praefat. ad Pium quart. in his editions of S. jerom, uncorrected by Molanus, as at Paris. 1579. & the former. he that would affirm Erasmus to be ignorant of the Greek tongue, whereof his works so many, both in divinity, and humanity, through all sorts of writers do proclaim the contrary; needeth no other Censor to advertise men, with what eyes he looked into Erasmus doings. It was not Erasmus ignorance of Greek, which bred so many errors in his corrections of, or notes upon, S. Jerome. It was his knowledge of the Latin, the Roman churches faults. It was his skill of the Italian abuses of the Pope. It was e Antidotus. Erasm. annotat. in epist. ad Nepotianum, ad Rusticum, ad Demetriadem, etc. passim. the treacle which he giveth that Victor. praefat. ad Pium quart●▪ Erasmus Roterodamus, Catholici hominis partes professus. antidoti nomine venenum sudit. seemeth poison unto you. These things, because they moved many to suspect that somewhat in Popery was not of the best: it was thought expedient that they should be taken out of S. Jerome. Victorius (to do it with a fair show) pretended other errors: but through too much choler he bewrayed his humour. He lacked that discretion which hath been showed since by the Divines of Lovan, in setting forth the notes of vives on S. Austin. For g In Augustin. de civit. Dei: both in the Prefaces of vives, and in his Commentaries throughout. they have omitted a great many things wherein vives touched their Popes and Churches sores: yet say they not so much. Only h In titulo appendicis Tomi quinti operum Augustini, A●t●erp. Plantin. they say, that * Nonnullis tamen omissis, ex Censura facultatis Theologicae Lovaniensis. certain things are omitted: certain, as not many; and errors they name them not; neither tell they what. Now, if the notes of vives on S. Austin have found such disfavour: the censures of Erasmus, on him, may better bear it. And, to say the truth, they have deserved it at your hands. For in those censures hath Erasmus showed that many books do falsely bear S. Augustine's name, by which, as by the warrant of S. Augustine's judgement, sundry of your Schoolman's and Canonists dreams have been advanced and aided. But he rejecteth some as counterfeit, you say, which Torrensis proveth to be S. Augustine's own. And what marvel is it, if amongst hundreds he were deceived in one or two? And having had trial of many false titles, he thought somefalse which were not? A fish, that hath been touched once with the hook, is said to fear the hook under every meat. They, who by experience have felt that some are coosiners, which bear the face of honest men, must be borne with, if they suspect a man sometimes whom they need not: chief, sith it proveth a greater point of wisdom to mistrust an honest man, then to trust a knave. For, to trust a knave, hath undone many, and brought them past recovery. To mistrust an honest man, though it be a fault, yet is it less dangerous, and may be sooner mended. But what shall we think of your Torrensis policy? Who, under this pretence that Erasmus judged some books not to be S. Augustine's, which are: i In confession. August▪ li. 1. c. 9 tit. 2. etc. passion. he citeth such, as S. Augustine's, * As namely the Sermon of S. Peter's chair and other pretty pamphlets of the 〈◊〉 litter. which are known and granted to be none of his. Hart. He doth not so simply, but k In praefat. confess. Augustin. ad Lectorem. with an exception, that if all of them be not S. Augustine's own, as we grant they be not: yet the most are theirs who lived the same time, and 1 Doctorum ●uxta atque piorum hominum plané omn●. all (no doubt) were written by learned and godly men. Rainoldes. But out of this exception he doth except again, that, although they do not avail much to convince the opinions of sectaries, nevertheless there will be godly men and learned, 2 Qui libros illos Augustinianos e●se sinant & iudicent. who will permit and judge them to be S. Augustine's own, and will both take delight and profit by reading them. Yet amongst these books, for which he striveth so to have them thought S. Augustine's, there be that teach contrary to S. Augustine's doctrine. As namely, the book of visiting the sick: wherein l De visitat. in●irmor. lib. 2. cap. 3. the bastard Austin alloweth the worship of Images, as good; which m De morib. eccles. catholicae cap. 34. the true Austin doth note, as an abuse, and saith, the Church misliketh it. But Torrensis could not espy this sentence of the true Austin: the other of the bastard (as it is judged by, not n Censura Erasmi: Sermo locutuleii nec docti, nec diserti. Quid habuere vel frontis vel mentis, qui talia scripta nobis obtruserunt nomin● Augustini● Erasmus only, but o Censura Lovaniensium: Non est Augustini. your Divines of Lovan too,) p Torrensis confess. Augustin. lib. 4. cap. 9 tit. 4. he setteth for a flower in his Augustine's confession. So that, if we compare the dealing of the jesuit Torrensis, with Erasmus, in taking or refusing the books of S. Austin: Erasmus, as a plain and well meaning man that were to receive a sum of of money in angels, finding many bad ones, some light, some cracked, some sowdered, some counterfeited amongst them, doth upon suspicion distrust a few good and is loath to take them, for fear of deceiving any whom he should pay them too. The jesuit, as a yoonker, who could gain by them, if he might put them all away, doth mingle them one with an other, and prayeth men to take them: protesting, that if they be not all English angels, yet they be Flemish; at least, they are stamped with the image of an angel. And although some curious and precise men are loath to take them in part of lawful payment: yet there be good fellows that will permit and judge them to be English angels, and will * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Eph. 4.14. play them at dice for their delight and profit too. I, for my part, have a better liking of Erasmus herein. Specially for that he showeth (in his censures) the reasons that moved him to think, as he doth, of the books which he refuseth: so that the church may thereby judge of his judgement. If you rather fancy the jesuit Torrensis: use your own discretion. But I would advise others to beware how they trust you, who do so lightly trust him. Hart. You excuse Erasmus, as though the suspicion which his censures raise of some things in S. Augustine's works, proceeded from a carefulness, that he might neither be deceived, nor deceive. Which if it had been so: his fault were the lesser. But q Prae●at. confess. August. ad Lect. Torrensis showeth, that whereas there are two 1 Tractatus de communi vita & moribus clericorum. treatises of his, touching the common life and manners of Clergy men, in which the spring and orders of the life of monks are faithfully declared: Erasmus, of malice (as it may seem) for hatred that he bore to monks, removed them both out of their own place, and put them guilefully amongst 2 Sermons ad ●ratres in ●re●o. the sermons entitled to the Eremite Friars; giving a note of infamy as to most of these, so to them withal; though himself deny not, but they were made by S. Austin. This is more, then distrusting a good angel for the bad. This is wilful refusing of an angel, as bad, the which he knoweth to be good. Rainoldes. If Erasmus did this, not of error, but of malice, for hatred which he bore to monks, as Torrensis suspecteth that he did: it were a great crime, and worthy to be published in print unto the world. But if he did it not of hatred, & malice, if he did it not at all, if he did the contrary, if he reproved the party by whom it was done, and himself redressed it: how will Torrensis make amends to Erasmus, whom he hath defamed with so lewd a slander? The sermons, entitled to the Eremit Friars, were impudently forged under S. Augustine's name, by some who was himself of that order belike, and gladly would have gotten credit to his order by the title of such a patron. Erasmus hath marked the most of these sermons with a note of infamy. Wherein, if he committed any offence, it was, that he marked no more of them so, not that he marked the most. For, r In Censura Sermonum ad Fratres in Eremo, Tom. 10. in append. your Louan-Cen●ors do set them out all with as good a note; affirming, not only, that they are 1 Confictos. forged, and 2 Satis constat. known certainly to be written under S. Augustine's name, 3 A quodam semilatino. by some pety-latinist, 4 Exclamatorem Gallo flandrum autorem Lipsius fuisse suspicatur. a rhetorical moongrell, demy-French, demy-Flemish, as Lipsius doth gather by certain words and phrases: but also that they were reproved and condemned 5 A Conseruatore Apostolico ●hegii, anno· ●414. damnatos & reprobatos. by an officer of the Popes above eight score years since, and written both largely and learnedly against by 6 In his book entitled, Venatorium canonicorum regula●●um. Malburne of Brussels. This Flemish-French-man then, as he endeavoured to write his sermons Austin-like, that men might think them to be S. Augustine's own: so he interlarded them with two treatises, which were in deed Augustine's, but uttered to the people of his own Church, and not to Eremite Friars. Erasmus, when he set forth S. Augustine's works first, espied the fraud and opened it: neither did he only remove them both thence, but also left this * Hoc loco sequebantur ●cta ●pud populum de disquisitione 〈…〉 Augustini Quae habentur inter Epist●las: & stult● inserta sunt Eremitici●. Censure there to keep them out; they are amongst the epistles, and were put foolishly in amongst the sermons to the Eremite Friars. Now be judge yourself, what the jesuit deserveth, who chargeth Erasmus to have done that of malice and hatred, which he not only did not, but also provided (as much as lay in him) that no man else should do it. Hart. Perhaps Erasmus did it, if not in his first edition of Austin, yet in other afterward. For doubtless in some of s Anno Domin● 1556. & 156●. the Basill-editions, which have the censures of Erasmus, those treatises are printed as Torrensis noteth them, even amongst the sermons to the Eremite Friars. And if Erasmus caused them so to be printed, as he did of likelihood: it is no mortal sin to think that he did it, not of error, but of malice & hatred against monks. For it is well known, that he could not abide them: and sundry of his censures are stained with that affection. Rainoldes. The likelihood is rather that Erasmus would not commit that himself, which he had condemned before in an other. At least, if he were so greatly overshot, Torrensis should do well to quote us the edition, and take him up more sharply, not only for malice but for folly too. But perhaps Torrensis hath done as (men say) Will Summer was wont: to let fly at Rowland, when Oliver had strooken him. For, t Anno Domin● 1531. in officin● Claudii Chevale lonij. in a Paris-edition of Austin, one 7 jacobus Haemer praefat. ad Abb. D. Vict. in opera August. Haemer (who was the overseer of the print) doth note that * Tomus deeimus recepit se● mo●es duos, quos Erasmus, quia scilicet inter Episto las essent, ex To●● trun caverat. Hos sollicité quaesitos & no● inventos suis ipsos Eremitis restituimus. himself hath restored again to the Eremite Friars, two sermons which Erasmus had taken away from them. The former Basil-printer, whom Erasmus used, had (as it appeareth) omitted them in the epistles, amongst the which he should have printed them. This fault the Paris-printer minding to amend, amended with a greater fault: whom s Anno Domi●● 1556. & 1569. the later Basil-editions did follow, overseen by Lipsius, & others, not Erasmus. Howbeit, neither is there, in them, a note of infamy set on both those treatises, (as Torrensis saith,) but only on the former. Which seemeth to have been the printers scape rather than the overseers: sith that they agreeing in argument and style had the same judgement both, as it is likely. Now concerning that, wherewith you charge farther the censures of Erasmus, that they are stained with his affection against monks: his affection towards ●hem was so well ordered in the love of righteousness, and hatred of iniquity, that it rather lead him to cleanse the stains of other, then stain his own censures. For, how well he liked of godly monks and their societies, it appeareth by that, which (when he was in England) he judged of u The descript· o● Britai●e, the 2. book, the 6. chapped. our Colleges in Oxford and Cambridge. The orders and rules whereof when he perceived, the end and manner of their studies, their lectures, their discipline, their provision in common: he compared the trade of our student's lives, with the rules and orders of the ancient moonkes: and counted it the best of the monastical institutions that ever was devised. Which being spoken by him to the praise of our Colleges, as raised to be nurseries for the ministry of the church, wherein they may be well resembled to the best of x Possidius de vita Augustin. cap. 11. Sever. Sulpit. de vit. Martin. cap. 7. Hieronym, epist. 4. ad Rusticum monachum. the ancient monasteries: doth argue that Erasmus had a good affection towards the ancient monks. But the common sort of monks of our age are creatures of an other kind, and changed to an other hew. In so much that y Historiae Anglicae lib. 6. Polydore Virgil, an Italian, who knew their state well, and did not hate them for religion, doth affirm of them, that it is * ●n credibile dictu est, quantum a Maioribus suis degeneraue●int. a thing uncredible to be spoken how greatly they are grown out of kind, from their ancestors. Wherefore, it stained not the censures of Erasmus, that he had a misliking of these unkindly monks, evil beasts, & idle bellies. But the liking of them professed by Torrensis hath stained with a witness his Augustine's confession. For, to bring men in love and admiration of their beggarly ceremonies, z Confession. Augustin. lib. 4. cap. 8. ti●. 6. he writeth of S. Austin that he was clad with a black cool, and girded with a leather girdle; and that, by no meaner man then S. Ambrose; a Ambros. part. 3. Sermon. 94. whose sermon he allegeth for the proof thereof, and * With these words ●n the margin: Augustinus cuculla nigra in dutus, & cingulo co●iaceo praecinetus. noteth it as a worthy matter. Where, in truth, that sermon is so far from being S. Ambrose his own: that the learned note it to be undoubtedly forged in his name b Censura Erasmi, Citra controversiam impostoris est & blateronis. Adeó nihil est illic Ambrosianum. by a coosining and prattling merchant, as the which hath nothing in it of S. Ambrose. Hart. That censure savoureth of Erasmus: who (by your leave) in matters touching monks, shall have no credit with me; say what you can, for him. Rainoldes. If you like not him: you may like Costerius, and Molanus yet, two Doctors of Lovan. Molanus, the king's professor of divinity: * Annot. in Vsuardi, Martyrologium. Mai. 5. Sermo non est Ambrosii nec in eius operibus habetur. who, casting off that fable of Augustine's black and monkish weed, saith that the sermon is not S. Ambroses'. Costerius, the Prior of S. Martin's Abbey: c Censura Costerij, Ipsa res clamat ab insulso & audaci impostore esse confictum. who censureth him that forged it more sharply than Erasmus did. For he doth not only call him a coosiner, but a sottish and shameless coosiner. And whereas Erasmus did yet notwithstanding d Anno Domini 1527. & 1539. set it forth amongst the rest of Ambroses' works: it seemed so loathsome and beastly to Costerius, that he hath clean left it out. So that, in the later editions of Ambrose, e Anno Domini 1555. & 1567., it is not extant now. Only this place of it, touching the cool and girdle of the Austin-monkes, (or Austin-friars-s, as they are called,) is laid up in Torrensis: a storehouse fit for such antiquities. Hart. If the Church allow the censures of those learned men: Rainoldes. I know no learned man of your church that disalloweth them. Hart. Then is it to be thought, that when Torrensis quoted that sermon of S. Ambrose: he meant, (as he had said * Praefat. confess. Augustin. ad Lectorem. afore of S. Austin) that either it is his; or some others like him. Rainoldes. This neither doth he say, nor his scholars gather, nor the truth agree too. For neither was it written by any like S. Ambrose, if a rash and sottish coosiner did forge it, which your supposal granteth: and he, with f As namely, the defendet of the Censure against M. Charke. page 38. other after him, allege it as written by S. Ambrose himself; whose it is manifest they would have it supposed, for the cools sake. So favourable are you in bearing with yourselves, to take that, as certainly written by the Fathers, which certainly is none of theirs. So sharp against us, if we suspect any thing not to be theirs, which is: yea, though we suspect it not, but be falsely thought to have suspected it through other men's default. And thus have I cast out the beam out of our eye. Now, let us see the moat in yours. Your practices in corrupting the writings of the Fathers, are of two sorts: the one, before the art of printing was found; and the other, sithence. Examples of them both I will give in our present question, touching the supremacy. The former sort therefore is rife in the chiefest Doctor of your Church, I mean, g In opusculo contra errores Graecorum ad Vrbanum quart. Pont. Max. Thomas of Aquine. Who writing against the errors of the Grecians, doth bring in S. cyril, saying, that as Christ received power of his Father over every power, 1 Vt ei cuncta curuentur plenissimam potestatem. a power most full and ample, that all things should bow to him; 2 Sic & Petro & eius successoribus plenissimé 〈◊〉. so he did commit it most fully and amply both to Peter & his successors: & 3 Nulli alij quam Petro Christus quod suam est, plenum, sed ipsi solidedit. Christ gave his own to none else, save to Peter, fully, but to him alone he gave it: and, the Apostles in the Gospels and Epistles have affirmed (in every doctrine) Peter and his Church to be in steed of God: and, 4 Cui, scilicet Petro, omnesiu re divino caput inclinant, & primates mund● tanquam ipsi Domino jesu obediunt. to him, even to Peter, all do bow their head by the law of God, and the Princes of the world are obedient to him, even as to the Lord jesus: & we, as being members, must cleave 5 Capiti nostro, Pontifici Romano. unto our head, the Pope and the Apostolic See; thence it is our duty to seek & inquire what is to be believed, what to be thought, what to be held; because 6 Solius Pontificis est arguere, corrigere, increpare, ratum facere, disponere, solvere et ligare. it is the right of the Pope alone, to reprove, to correct, to rebuke, to confirm, to dispose, to lose and bind. These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyrils' work entitled 7 Or treasures, as Thomas, and other do entitle it. the treasure. But in S. Cyrils' treasure there are no such base coins to be found. Wherefore either Thomas coined them himself for want of currant money: or took them of some coiner, and thought to try, if they would go. Hart. Do you know, what injury you do to that blessed man S. Thomas of Aquine, to whose charge you lay so great a crime of forgery? Rainoldes. None I at all, to him, whose counterfeits I descry. But he did great injury to the poor Christians, whom he abused with such counterfeits. Your * Pope john the two and twentieth. An●onin. histor. part. 3. tit. 21. cap. 5. Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holiness of his life and learning. The greatest trial of it was in his service to that See. And are you loath to have it known? Hart. But why should you think either him to be the counterfeiter, or the sayings to be counterfeit, when, (as h Alanus Copus Dialog. 1. ca 13. Cope showeth) they are alleged not only by him, but by other too. Namely, by that worthy and most learned Cardinal 1 In summa de Eccles. & in apparatu super decreto unionis Graecorum in Concilio Florentino. john of Turrecremata, who was at the Council of basil; & before him by 2 In lib. de potest. Ecclesiast. Austin of Ancona: yea by Grecians themselves, who were at the council of Florence, Andrea's Bishop of Colossae, and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarch of Constantinople. Of whom when the former said (in * Vid. session. 5.7. & 8. the Council) that cyril in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope, none of all gainsaid him. The later, (in a treatise that he wrote for the Latins against the Grecians, touching five points whereof one is the Pope's supremacy) citeth the same testimonies, although perhaps not all, which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of cyril. Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carp at: and think that words alleged by them all, are counterfeits. Rainoldes. Counterfeits are counterfeits, though they go through twenty hands. All these, whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope, did live long after Thomas: and seem to have alleged S. cyril on his credit, as Cope himself doth also. Wherefore I could not think that they had been the coiners of that which was before they were. But Thomas is the first, with whom I find the words: and therefore greatest reason to lay the fault on him, unless he show from whom he had them. At least, seeing I know the words are not Cyrils', whose Thomas saith they be: I did him no injury (I trust) when I said, that either he received them at some coiners hands, or coined them himself. Hart. Although the words are not to be found now in those parts of Cyrils' treasure, which are extant: yet that is not sufficient to prove, that either Thomas or some other forged them. For i Locor. Theologicor. lib. 6. cap. 5. Melchior Canus affirmeth that heretics have maimed that book, and have razed out all those things which therein pertained to the Pope's authority. Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact upon john: the Catholics have found, and showed. Rainoldes. Me thinks, you and Canus deal against us, as k Cicero pro L. Flacco. the men of Doryla did against Flaccus. Whom when they accused out of their public records, and their records were called for: they said that they were rob of them upon the way, by, I know not what shepherds. You accuse us, that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy. The records, by which you prove it his right, are the words of cyril. Cyrils' words are called for, that they may be seen. You say, they are not extant: you are rob of them, by, I know not what heretics. Whereon to put a greater likelihood, you say further, that heretics have done an other robbery in Theophylact, as they are charged by Catholics. And this do you say: but you say it only: you bring no proof, you name no witness, you show no token of it. If such accusations may make a man guilty: who shall be innocent? He that should have dealt-among the l Cic. pro M. C●lio: Accusario crimen desiderat, rem ut desiniat, hominem ut notet, argumento probet, te●te confirme●. heathens so: would have been counted rather a slanderer then an accuser. Hart. Admit, that the words were not razed perhaps out of any book of cyril, which we have. Yet might they be in some of them, which are m Alan. Copus, dialog. 1. cap. 13. lost, or n Melchior Canus lib. 6. cap. 5. not set forth in Latin. For, we have no more than fourteen books of his treasure: whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the o Synodo 6. actione 10. sixth general Council. And this is enough to remove suspicion of forgery from Thomas, and other, who allege them. Rainoldes. Nay, although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there: yet meant they no more of cyril, than we have. For that, which in our Latin edition is the twelfth, is the two and thirtieth, in the Grecians count. Hart. This is an answer which I never heard. It hath no likelihood of truth. Rainoldes. Peruse you the place, which toucheth that of cyril: and the words themselves will prove it more than likely. Hart. The Council hath it thus. Hoc & sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet, epistolam ad profanos explanans: nec enim unam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei & creaturae; ut neque id quod creatum est ad divinam deducamus essentiam, neque id quod est divinae naturae praecipuum, ad locum qui creatis convenit deponamus. Rainoldes. This sentence, alleged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Greek, is p In Cyrilli Thesauro lib. 12. cap. 1. in the twelfth book of our Latin cyril. Saving that, he being translated by * Georgius Trapezuntius. an other hath it in other words. But there is the sentence: the very same sentence which the Council pointeth too. Hart. It might be there, first, and yet again afterward in the two and thirtieth: as many use one sentence often. Rainoldes. But the circumstance of the place doth rather import it to be the very same. For, the Council saith, that cyril hath these words, explanans epistolans ad profanos, where he expoundeth the epistle to profane men. And what meant they, by this epistle ad profanos, to profane men? Hart. How can I tell what they meant, when that book of cyril (whereof they speak) is lost? Rainoldes. It should be, the epistle ad Romanos, to the Romans: [ 1 The Roman● Romanos] made [ 2 profane men. profanos] by the printers error: unless he did it of purpose, to show, what now the Romans be: or some corrector changed it, lest we by this circumstance should find the place of cyril. For, this [where he expoundeth the epistle to the Romans] is a great argument, that the Council meant the place in the twelfth book: where Cyril doth handle such points of that epistle as concerned the matter that he had in hand. Which that he should do again, in the same work, with the same sentence, touching the same matter: they who know cyril, will not think it likely. The less, because it is an usual thing with the Grecians, to divide books otherwise then the Latins do. As, in the Greek testament, the gospel of S. Mark hath more than forty chapters, which hath not twenty in the Latin: and yet notwithstanding the Latin hath the whole, as well as the Greek. Which is the more likely to have been the difference between the Greek cyril, alleged by the Council, and our Latin cyril translated out of Greek, because that our Latin hath also other sentences in the tenth book, which are alleged q Action. 10. by the Council out of the four and twentéeth: and, in their division, r As (in the same place) Cyrillus de Thesauris, capitulo vigesimo quarto, is alleged: for which it is after, libro vigesimo quarto. a chapter and a book did go for all one, whereas the books in Latin are subdivided into chapters. The mentioning therefore of more books of Cyrils' treasure, than we have, removeth not suspicion of forgery from the sayings, which Thomas citeth thence for the Pope's supremacy. Chiefly, sith Trapezuntius who translated that work of cyril into Latin, was a man affectionate greatly to the Pope. That, if he had left out somewhat of that Greek, as he hath perhaps, (unless he used Cyril better than * De praeparatione evangelical which in Greek hath much more, than it hath in latin translated by Trapezuntius. Eusebius:) yet is it not credible that he would have left out so many places, so notable proofs of a thing so weighty, so nearly touching him whom he so dearly loved. In deed they are too notable, and perfect for the purpose: and such, as, your s Locor. Theolog. lib. 6. cap 5. Cyrillus apud D. Thomam multo evidentius quám autores caeteri. Canus saith, have not their matches throughout all the Fathers. Wherein, that is also worthy of remembrance which a wise man said in a like case: to much perfection breedeth suspicion. Neither was S. Cyril likely to write them, t Epist. Cyrilli ad synodum Carthag. in council. African cap. 102. who, when the Council of Carthage sent unto him about the Pope's usurping, was so glad to send them evidence against it: neither was his treasure fit to write them in, as handling all an other matter, namely, that the Son and the Holy ghost are of one substance with God the Father. But the forging of cyril might be better borne with he was but one man. That is no way tolerable, that the like dealing is used with six hundred Bishops, and more, even with the general Council of Chalcedon. Of whom u In eodem op●sculo contra errores Graecorum. Thomas writeth that they decreed ●hus: If any Bishop be accused, let him appeal freely to 1 ●eatissimum episcopum antiquae Romae. the Pope of Rome, 2 Quia habemus Petrum petram refugii. because we have Peter for a rock of refuge; and he alone hath right, with freedom of power, in the steed of God, to judge and try the crime of a Bishop accused, according to the keys which the Lord did give him. And again after: Let all things be kept which are defined by him, as defined by the Vicar of the Apostolic see. And, to prove 3 Quód Pontifex in totam ecclesiam Christi universalem praelationem habet. that the Pope hath universal sovereignty over the whole church of Christ: It is read, saith Thomas, in the Council of Chalcedon, that the whole Council did cry to Pope Leo, God grant long life to Leo, the most holy, Apostolic, & 4 It is in Thomas, Icumeraycos, id est universalis: but he meaneth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. universal Patriarch of the whole world. Now in the general Council of Chalcedon there is not one of these things: no more, than the other were in Cyrils' treasure. Wherefore it must needs be, that either Thomas coined them, or had them from some coiner. Belike he, who did it, was master of the Pope's mint: and who that should be, but Thomas, I know not. Hart. Neither Thomas, nor any else. For these things were written in the Council of Chalcedon: but heretics have razed them out of our copies, as x Registr. lib. 5. epist. 14. ad Narsem Comitem. Gregory complaineth to the Earl Narses. Rainoldes. Or rather, as y Locor. Theolog. lib. 6. cap. 6. Eaquae D. Thomas refert, in ●uius temporis exemplaribus non habentur: sed ab haereticis erasa Gregorius queritur. Canus reporteth out of Gregory; but reporteth falsely. For Gregory doth not mention either heretics, or these things. Only z Registr. lib. 5. ●p. 14. Chalcedo nensis synodus in uno loco ab ecclesia Constantinopolitana falsata est. he affirmeth that the church of Constantinople had falsified the Council of Chalcedon in one place: which he seemeth to mean of the eight and twentieth canon of that Council, (as the Grecians reckon it) wherein Constantinople is allowed equal privileges with Rome. For the Church of Rome had still withstood this canon: chiefly, Pope a Epist. 51.52.53.59. & 60. Leo. Yet Constantinople, and the Greek churches did set it down amongst the rest. The difference between them appeareth to this day in the b Canon's council. Chalced. ●an. 28. Greek and c Concil. Chalced. act. 15. Which hath but seven and twenty canons Latin copies: the one of them having it, and the other wanting it. Which is a great presumption, that Gregory, in saying, the Council of Chalcedon is falsified by the church of Constantinople in one place: meant this place, by which Constantinople claimed as great prerogatives as Rome, the church of Rome crying against it. And hereof d In summa council. Chalced ex nova edit. act. 16. Carranza in the abridgement of the Counsels, and e Concil. Chalced. in annot. ad Lect. action. 15. Surius in the whole, do give a mark both, rejecting that canon. But neither Surius, nor Carranza do bring in any such stuff as that of Thomas; or say, that it was written in the Council of Chalcedon, but heretics have razed it out. Nay the very canons themselves of that Council, which are agreed upon in both the Greek & Latin copies, do cut off all show from such false and frivolous defences of Thomas. For it cannot be thought, that so great a Council, of so wise men, ordained things repugnant one unto an other: and f Concil. Chalced. can. 1.9.17. & 19 they have ordained repugnant unto that which Thomas citeth of the Pope, as shall appear g Chapt. 9 Diuis. 4. after. But Canus hath greatly both abused you and overshot himself: who, to prove that now the copies have not those things which they had in Thomas time, bringeth Gregory for witness, who lived 1 Above sixth hundred years. long before Thomas; and chargeth heretics with that, wherewith Gregory chargeth 2 Ab ecclesia Constantinop. Catholics; and saith, that they have razed out, where Gregory saith they have 3 Falsata est synodus Chalced. falsified, which they might do by adding too; and speaketh it of sundry places, which Gregory speaketh but of 4 In uno loco. one, and that one (by the judgement of your own friends) an other one then those of Thomas. Now much more ingenuously should Canus have done, and you (who follow him in evil,) to confess a fault where a fault is, then to commit many for the covering of one; and for cléering Thomas, to corrupt Gregory; and to slander us with unjust reproaches, that you may save yourselves from a just reproof. Hart. I did not peruse the place myself in Gregory: but took it, as I found it alleged by learned men. For h Alan. Copus Dial. 1. cap. 13. Cope hath it as well as Canus. Neither do I think that they did wrest it purposely: but trusting their memories for the matter in general, did miss in setting down the words. Rainoldes. Neither do I charge them as wilful wresters of it. It may be that Canus read it in some other, i Mat▪ 15.14 and Cope in Canus, and you in Cope: and thus by tradition you are deceived from hand to hand. Remember Christ's sentence. If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. But this may suffice for a taste of your corrupting the writings of the Fathers, before they came to the print. Now, how you have used them since they were printed: let your setting forth of Cyprian, first at Rome, and then at Anwerp, be an example. In the time of Cyprian, the church of Christ was troubled with the heresy of the novatians, or (as they called themselves) k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Epiphan. haer. 59 Cathari. August. de haeres. ad Quoduultd. haer. 3●. Puritans: a faction of men, who thinking all impure and unclean, which had fallen in the time of persecution, though they repented after, refused to communicate with them; and thereupon did separate themselves from the society of the Catholic church and assemblies of the faithful as unclean also, for that they received into their fellowship and communion, upon repentance, such as had fallen. Against these novatians, the firebrands of schisms and dissensions in the Church. S. Cyprian hath written a notable treatise l Cyprian. de unitate ecclesiae. touching the unity of the church: wherein he doth instruct and exhort Christians to keep the unity of spirit in the bond of peace, and be at concord among themselves. And, to win this of them by reasons and persuasions out of the holy scripture; as among the rest he bringeth sundry figures wherein is represented the unity of the church, as the ark of Noah, the coat of Christ, the house of Rahab, the lamb of the Passover: so among the figures he placeth Peter first, in that our Saviour said to him, Thou art Peter, and on this stone will I build my church, &, To thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven, & again, Feed my sheep. For albeit Christ, saith he, gave 1 Apostolis om●ibus parem potestatem. equal power to all the Apostles, after his resurrection, and said, As my father sent me, so I send you; receive ye the holy Ghost; whosoevers sins ye remit, they are remitted to them, & whosoever's sins y● retain, they are retained: yet to declare unity, he disposed by his authority the original of that unity beginning of one. No doubt, the rest of the Apostles were the same that Peter was, 2 Pari consortio praediti & honour's & potestatis. endued with like fellowship both of honour, and of power: but the beginning doth come from unity, that the church of Christ may be showed to be one. Now, this place of Cyprian, which by the former prints was thought to make rather for an equality of all the Apostles in power, than a supremacy of one, as it doth in deed: is farsed with such words, in the Roman Cyprian, that in show it maketh for Peter's supremacy, and so for a supremacy in power like the Popes, m Staple. princip. doctrine. l. 6. c. 7. as you teach men to gather of it. For where it was in Cyprian, that the rest of the Apostles were equal both in honour and power unto Peter but the beginning doth come from unity: the Roman Cyprian addeth these words, 1 Et primatus Petro datur. and the primacy is given unto Peter. Where it was in Cyprian, that Christ did dispose the original of unity beginning from one: the Roman Cyprian addeth, 2 unam cathed●●m con●●tuit. he appointed one chair. And again where Cyprian said, that the church of Christ may be showed to be one: the Roman Cyprian addeth 3 Et cathedra una. and the chair to be one. This was well, to begin with; that unto Peter the primacy is given, that Christ appointed one chair, and, as the church must be one so the chair must be one. Yet because one chair (in n Cathedra v●●. Epist. 40. episcopatus unus est, cuius a singulis in solidum pars. tenetur. De unitat. ecclesiae. Cyprians language) doth make no more for the chair of the bishop of Rome, then of the bishop of Carthage: the Cyprian of Antwerp (to help the matter forward) doth bring in Peter's chair. And where it was in Cyprian, even in the Roman print too, He who withstandeth and resisteth the church, doth he trust himself to be in the church? the Anwerp Cyprian addeth, 4 Qui cathedr● Petri super quam fundata est ecclesia, deserit. He who forsaketh Peter's chair on which the church was founded, doth he trust himself to be in the church? So, whereas aforetime S. Cyprian showed the unity of the church in an equality of Peter with the rest of the Apostles: now, by good handling, he showeth Peter's primacy; and that, by good expounding, is the Pope's supremacy. For, we must imagine, that by Peter's chair is meant the Pope's chair: which chair be forsaketh, who is not obedient and subject to the Pope, according to o Dist. 93. Obedientiam etc. summo pontifici: nec in ecclesia esse poterit, qui cathedram eius deserit. unde Cyprianus. Qui cathedram Petri (supra quam f●●data est ecclesia) demerit: in ecclesia se e●●e non confid●●. Gratian in the canon law. The only difficulty, and scruple, that is left to breed a doubt thereof in suspicious heads, is that clause of Cyprian, that Christ gave equal power to all the Apostles; and the rest were the same that Peter was, endued with like fellowship both of honour and of power. Which words if you could handsomely take away out of him in some new print, (and why not take away so few, as well as add so many?) then would this be a passing fine place for you, to persuade men, that the unity of the church doth presuppose your one chair, to which all must be subject, who will be of the church: and that they (by consequent) are no right Christians, who stand against the Pope's supremacy. Hart. You are much to blame to lay unto our charge the corrupting of Cyprian: chief in those editions, which are best and soundest, the Roman of Manutius, and Anwerp of Pameliu●. For, Pius the fourth, a Pope of worthy memory, desirous p Manut. epist. lib. 8. ad Pium quart. that the Fathers should be set forth corrected most perfectly and cleansed from all spots, sent to Venice, for Manutius, an excellent famous printer, that he should come to Rome, to do it. And to furnish him the better with all things necessary thereto: he put four Cardinals, very wise and virtuous, in trust with the work. Now, for the correcting and cleansing of Cyprian specially above the rest, q Praefat. in opera Cypriani ad C●rolum Bor●●m. Cardin. singular care was taken by Cardinal Borromaeus; a copy was gotten of great antiquity from Verona; the exquisite diligence of learned men was used in it. Wherefore I am persuaded, that whatsoever they did add unto Cyprian they did not add it rashly, or of their own head, but with good advise upon the warrant of written copies. Which although they have not declared in particular, yet may we gather it by r jacobus Pamelius, sacrae Theologiae Licentiatus, ecclesiae Brugensis canonicus. Pamelius, a Canon of the Church of Bruges, and Licentiat of divinity, by whom the Anwerp-Cyprian was afterward set forth. For, s Annot. in Cyprian. de unit. eccles. he doth note that all the words (which you spoke of) added by Manutius in the Romane-print [he appointed one chair] and [the chair to be one,] and [the primacy is given unto Peter,] are in a written copy of the Cambron-abbey: t Codex manuscriptus abbot. Cambronensis, omnium optimus. Pamel. in codi●um indiculo. which was the best of all the copies that he had. Yea, those of [peter's primacy] not only in that copy, but in an other too, which Cardinal Hosius occupied. As for the rest, which were added by himself in the print at Anwerp, [he who forsaketh Peter's chair on which the church was founded, doth he trust himself to be in the church?] he noteth that they also are in the Cambron-copie, and confirmed by u Dist. 93 c. Qui ●athedram. Gratian, who hath the same words, and citeth them with Cyprians name. Whereby you may perceive, that we have not corrupted those places of Cyprian, either in the Roman-print, or the Antwerp: we have corrected rather that which was corrupt. But (I see) the Poet hath said very truly: Nothing is done so well, but with evil speeches a man may deprave it. Rainoldes. And it is as truly said by the Orators: Nothing is done so evil, but with fair colours a man may defend it. The Pope sent for Manutius to print the Fathers corrected; he appointed four Cardinals to see the work done; Cardinal Borromaus had singular care of Cyprian; copies very ancient, men very learned, exquisite diligence used in it. This is it, which maketh me the more suspect it: the diligence was too exquisite. * Cicer. de oratore lib. 2. When a petycaptaine, whom Scipio did punish for that he was not in the field, said, that he remained in the camp to keep it: I love not them (quoth Scipio) that are too diligent. The camp was too well kept by the petycaptaine. The Cardinal's care of Cyprian might have the like fault. Manutius x Epist. lib. 9 ad ●acobum Gorse●um. himself writeth, that his whole charge of printing books at Rome pertaineth 1 Ad Sedis Apostolicae dignitatem. to the dignity of the Popes See. I fear me, this dignity did dasel much their eyes, who perused copies to correct the Fathers. The purpose of the Pope was (as y Manut. praefat▪ ad Pium quart. in librum Card. Poli de concilio. he declareth) to have them so corrected, that there should remain no spot, which might infect the minds of the simple 2 False doctrinae specie. with the show of false doctrine. Whereby, if it be weighed what [false doctrine] signifieth in the court of Rome, a man may guess easily how they did correct them. Chiefly, sith they have not showed where they found those words of [one chair] and [primacy given unto Peter:] as z The Lovan Diuine●, in setting forth of Austin: Morelius, of Cyprian: Co●●erius, of Ambrose: Erasmus, of the Fathers commonly. others use to do in new corrections of authors. Which yet I will not condemn as a token of a guilty conscience. It may be that they found them in one or other bad copy. For such they followed some, as it appeareth by Pamelius: who, in sundry places correcteth the Roman print, and that justly. But Pamelius found them in a written copy of the Cambron-abbey, the best (he saith) of all his copies: wherein he found also the words which Gratian hath of cleaving to the chair of Peter: and so * Atque adeo non sumus veriti in textum in●erere. Pamel. annot. in Cyprian. de unit. ●ccl s. he was bold to put them into Cyprians text. More bold than wise, in that. For (to see, how fancy doth overrule discretion,) first, if the copy of the Cambron-abbey had been very good: yet to follow one against so many, which himself, which Morelius, which other (who printed Cyprian) had, yourselves would think it rashness, but that it made for the Pope's advantage. Then, it is likely that the man of Cambron, who wrote that Abbey-copie, was tampering about it to square it unto somewhat. For a As Pameli●● showeth, anno●▪ in Cyprian. de unit. ●c●les. he hath left out that clause of Cyprian touching the Apostles, [ 1 Pari co●sortio praediti & honoris & potes●●ti●. endued with like fellowship both of honour and of power:] and in stead ofthese words, 2 V●lg. Sed●●. ordium ab ●●●tate proficiscitur. Cambio●. Sed primatus Petro datu●. but the beginning doth come from unity; he hath put in th●se, but the primacy is given to Peter. Thirdly, ifhe altered not the words of purpose: yet might he write that in the text by error, which some had noted in the margin; or if he did not so himself, perhaps an other had, whom he followed. A thing that falleth often out in written copies. As b Pr●fut. ad A●●●iep. Tolet in opera A●g. Quod lector ineptien● anno●a●at in margin ●ui codicis, s●rib● retulerant in contextum. Erasmus witnesseth he found S. Augustine's works depraved much by that folly: and if you suspect the judgement of Erasmus, c Praefat. ad lectorem de edit. operum August. 1571. Paris. apud Merlinum & Nivellium. the Paris-overseers consent with him in this point, though otherwise dissenting from him. Hart. You may reject what evidence soever you li●t, if you please yourself in such conjectures and guesses. For, if any Father's sentence be alleged, and you like it not: you may say, that perhaps it was noted in the margin, and some unskilful scriveners wrote it in the text, as they have done elsewhere in Austin. Rainoldes. Not in Austin only, but in Cyprian too, as your d An notat. in epis●. 60. In trac●at. de unit. eccles. Pamelius hath observed: & that even in this treatise touching the unity of the church. But whether I have reason to say, that the words (whereof we speak) in Cyprian, might come into the text out of the margent-note: I leave it to be judged by reasonable men upon the view of the circumstances. The written copy (cited by e Annot. in. Cyprian. de unitat. eccles. Pamelius himself) which Cardinal Hosius occupied, convinceth it most plainly, for the chiefest of them. For there, after the speech of Christ unto Peter, alleged out of Matthew, these words are interlaced, Hic Petro primatus datur, Here the primacy is given unto Peter. Which to have been noted by some in the margin, it is so manifest, that neither the Romane-print nor the Anwerp could bring them into Cyprians text, but either by changing or leaving out the word [Here:] f Roman. Et primatus Petro datur. the one hath changed it into the word▪ [And,] g Antuerp. Primatus Petro datur. the other hath left it out. That the rest of [one chair] crept in by like stealth: it is very probable, though harder to convince. But the last of [sticking unto Peter's chair] added by Pamelius, do seem to have leapt into the text suddenly, before the margin saw them. For, they are written not only in the copy of the Cambron-abbey, but in Gratian too. And thereupon Pamelius saith that he was bold to put them into Cyprians text. Now shall the Fathers be well amended shortly, if you amend them out of Gratian: a man, who in favour of the Pope's State hath forged and falsified the writings of the Father's most lewdly and shamefully. Know you not his famous abusing of S. Austin h Distinct. 19 c. ●n canoni●is. Ex A●gust. de doctr. Christ 〈◊〉. c. 8. whom he hath made to say, that * Inter canon●●cas scriptur●● decre●ales epistole connume●antur. the decretal epistles (as you term them) of the Popes are counted in the number of the Canonical Scriptures? Howbeit, if he have not abused Cyprian so: yet he rather hurteth than helpeth the corrections of your new prints. For, where i 24. q. 1. cap. Loquitur. he allegeth that whole place of Cyprian, which they have made such change in, he neither hath [the primacy is given unto Peter,] nor [Christ appointed one chair,] nor [that the chair may be showed to be one.] Wherefore if his authority may warrant the soundness of things that are cited by him out of the Fathers: he bringeth you greater discredit, than credit, for that which you have changed in Cyprian. Hart. The clause, which Pamelius added to Cyprian, he added on the warrant not of Gratian'S credit, but of the Cambron-copie. Wherewith, as far as Gratian agreed, he approved him: he approved him not, in that he disagreed from it. Neither is it any discredit to Pamelius, to have rather followed that copy, than Gratian: sith Gratian hath miss sometimes (as we grant) in citing of the Fathers; perhaps by setting down not so much their words as that which he conceived to be meant thereby. But these are small matters, whereto you pick quarrels in the print of Cyprian, at Rome, or at Antwerp; for this, or that correction: that you may seem to have some pretence yet, why you refuse trial by the consent of the Fathers in controversies of religion. Rainoldes. When a young man, whom * Diog. La●●●. de vit. philosophor. lib. 3. ● Plato reproved for playing at dice, said, Do you reprove me for so small a matter? The matter is small, quoth Plato, but the custom of it is no small matter. So the matters may be small, which I reprove in your correcting of Cyprian: but the custom of such correcting is no small matter. For Gratian (you grant) setteth down sometimes not the words of the Fathers, but that which he conceiveth to be meant thereby: what if he misse-conceive it? And howsoever that be: what if here he aimed at the meaning of Cyprian? As it may seem he did: for k Gratian. In e●cl●sia se esse no● confidat. Camb●. In ecclesia se esse confidit? he agreeth not precisely word for word with the Cambron-copie. Now, the Cambron-copie what is it, or whence came it, that Cyprian should be made the father of such slips upon the credit of it alone? What, if some did note them in the margin, of fancy, as students use to do? What if some received them into the text of error? What if some, of zeal unto the church of Rome, did add them? And why did not Pamelius leave out the other words of the equality of the Apostles in honour and power, because the Cambron copy wanteth them: as well as add these of Peter's primacy and chair, because the Cambron-copie hath them? Did not his conscience tell him, that the copy was unsound: or at the least insufficient, to force the change of a place of so great importance against the credit of so many both written books and printed? If other Licentiates as learned as Pamelius; shall upon one copy, as good as the Cambron; presume, in all the Fathers, as he hath in Cyprian; to add the like gloss, for the rest of your opinions, as these are for the chair and primacy of Peter: it will be high time for us to take heed how we permit the trial of controversies in religion to the consent of the Fathers. Wherefore, although these matters seem never so small, yet there may lie as much on them, as concerneth the safety of our souls. Neither do I pick them, as quarrels, for pretence; but I allege them as reasons for proof, that, by the position of your own author, we must deal with you not by their consent, but by the scripture only. For he, on whom you grounded, Vincentius Lirinensis, alloweth only scripture, to convince those errors which have increased long, & wide: because the length of time hath given them occasion to steal away the truth; and (the poison spreading farther) they endeavour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers. Your error of the Papacy hath spread far, and grown long: you have endeavoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers: the forgeries are plain in Cyprian, in cyril, and in the Council of Chalcedon: the presumptions are great that you have been as bold with other, as with these. For if Thomas of Aquine made no conscience of it, what may be thought of such as were more ambitious? And if Manutius dealt so with Cyprian, in l Praefat. in opera Cypriani ad Carolum Bor●om. Card. whom he sought most credit: what did his m Manut. epist. lib. 10. ad Cardin. Sirlet. ten years labours in setting forth the rest? And if Papists durst this in the light of printing: what may we fear they did in the darkness of writing, books? And if the Roman print be followed at Anwerp, the Anwerp at n Anno Domini 1574. apud Se● Ni●ellium. Paris, the Paris otherwhere perhaps, and the newer the worser, and the worst accounted best by such as D. o Princip. doctrine. 〈◊〉. 6. cap. 7▪ & 15. Stapleton, and testimonies alleged thence, as authentical: how much likelier is it, that when they wrote copies in Monasteries, and Abbeys, they followed one another with lesser shame, and greater looseness; and so did proceed, from good to evil, from evil to worse; and authors of that age did most approve those copies, which made for their advantage most, and brought authorities out of them. To conclude therefore, even by his judgement to whom you appealed, Vincentius Lirinensis, in that golden book against the profane innovations of all heresies: the touchstone, by the which our controversy must be tried, is the word of God, and not the word of men; not the consent of Fathers, but the holy scripture, and the scripture only. And this (I may protest) I speak not of fear, as though the Fathers all held with you against us: but of conscience, that I may yield due glory to God, due reverence to his word. For, let such forgeries, as I have spoken of, be set apart: The third division. and what have all the Fathers, nay what hath any of them, to prove the pretended supremacy of Peter? Hart. The very same Fathers, whose words I alleged, p Chap. 4. Diuis. 3. out of Stapleton prine, doctr. l. 6. c. 13. before, and them acknowledged to be their own, not counterfeits, give Peter the supremacy, which you call pretended. For S. q Epist. 11. ad August. inter epist. Aug. jerom saith of him, Peter was of so great authority, that Paul wrote, Then after three years, and so forth: and S. r De bapt. contr. Donat. l. 2. c. 1. Austin affirmeth that the primacy of the Apostles is conspicuous and pre-eminent with excellent grace in Peter: and Chrysostom calleth him, the mouth of the Apostles, the chief, and top of the company: and he is named by t In epistolama●. Gal. cap. 1. Theodoret, s In johannem homil. 87. the prince of the Apostles; the prince, which title also is given him by all antiquity. Whereto * Staplet prin●. doct. lib. 6. c. 7. & Torrens. confess, Augustin. l. 1. c. 9 tit. 1. & 2. I may add that u In Anchorat. Epiphanius termeth him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as you would say, the highest of the Apostles: and x Quaest. ex No● Test. quaest. 75. Tractat 124. in johannem. S. Austin yet farther, their head, & their Precedent, & the first of them: which pre-eminence he proveth also out of S. y Epist. ad Qui●tum. apud Aug. de bapt. count Do● l. ●. ●. 1. Cyprian, who saith that the Lord did choose Peter first: & S. z Aduers●● I●uiman. lib. ●. jerom teacheth, that Peter was chosen, one, among the twelve, to the intent that (a head being appointed) occasion of schism might be taken away. The books of the Fathers are full of such sayings: but they are all to this effect. And therefore these few may serve to show their judgement. Rainoldes. These sayings, and the like, which are alleged out of the Fathers, do touch three prerogatives which they give to Peter: the first of authority, the second of primacy, the third of principality. But none of them all doth prove the supremacy which you pretend to Peter, and mean to the Pope. For, by tha● supremacy, is signified the selnes of ecclesiastical or rather Papal power, even a power sovereign of governing the Church throughout the whole world, in all points & matters of doctrine and discipline, as a Chap. 〈…〉 2. ●. you declared. Is it not? Hart. It is so. What then? Rainoldes. But none of the sayings alleged out of the Fathers, do give this sovereign power to Peter. Therefore they prove not his pretended supremacy. Hart. They give it him all. Rainoldes. I will show the contrary. And to speak in order of the three prerogatives, which by them are given him: the first, out of jerom, that Peter was of great authority, is nothing to your purpose. For, it is apparent, that, sith the supremacy doth note a sovereign power, the question is of power, and not of authority. Hart. As who say, that power and authority did differ so much, one from the other. Rainoldes. Much. For, power importeth a right of rule and government, which the superiors have over their inferiors for the good ordering of mankind: as b Rom. 13.1. Princes over subjects, c 2. Cor. 13.10. Pastors over flocks, d Mat. 8.9 Masters over servants, e ●. Cor. 11.10. Husbands over wives. By, authority, is meant estimation and credit: a good opinion of men, for that which we account worthy to be esteemed. For they, of whom we think so well in respect of their virtue, or wisdom, or state, or other qualities, that we will follow them as authors in our doings, our judgements, facts, or words: are said to be of credit, and authority, with us. And this an inferior may have with his superior. As f ●. Sam. 16.23. Achithophel, a counsellor, had such authority with his Prince, that his counsel was regarded, as an oracle of God: and g Act. 5.40. Gamaliel, a Pharise, had such authority with the jews, that the high priest, and the whole assembly, did yield to his advise, and, as it were, obeyed him. Wherefore, the authority which jerom saith that Peter had, doth not prove a power, much less a supremacy. Hart. Yet oftentimes [authority] is taken for the same that [power:] as, when a thing is done by the appointment and order of the magistrate, we are w●nt to say, that it is done by authority. Rainoldes. True: because power is one of those qualities which procure authority; the greater authority, the better that the power is used. And so I joined power and authority together, * Chap. 3. Divis. 1. when I spoke of the keys, that Christ did give to Peter. But, although the words be taken for the same in a 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as the Grammarians call it. figurative kind of speech, by reason of the affinity which is between the things: yet as the things differ, and the words are used for them (as different) properly, it is clear, that authority may be without power, and an inferior in power may be superior in authority. So h Philip. 3. Autoritas tribuenda est. Tully, when he told the Senators of Rome, that they ought to give authority to Cesar and the rest against Antony: he meant by authority, lawful power and right to deal against him as against an enemy. But otherwhere, i Pro leg. Manil. Scientia reī militaris, virtus▪ autoritas, felicitas. entreating of four things, which should be in a General of an army, skill, virtue, authority, felicity: he meant, not lawful power by authority, but estimation, that a General must be honourably thought of by friends and foes. The difference between them he showed, where k In Pisonem. he said, that Metellus, * Privatus fieri vetuit, atque id quod nondum potestate poterat, obtinuit autoritate. a private man, (though chosen Consul. for the year following) forbade certain plays, when an officer had allowed them, and that which he could not yet obtain by power, he did obtain by authority. Hart. The things do differ, I grant. But seeing that the name of authority is used as well for power sometimes, as for estimation: why should it be taken in S. jeroms words, rather for estimation, as you will have it; then for power, as I? Rainoldes. Because the point, which jerom doth thereupon infer, cannot agree to power, but to estimation: yea, this word itself is expressed by him, and showeth that he meant it. For he saith, that Paul went up to jerusalem to confer of the gospel with them that were 1 Qui videbantur aliquid esse. Ex Gal. 2.2. Gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esteemed: by whom he meaneth 2 Petri, & cae●ero●●m apostolorum. Peter and other Apostles, even them, whom l Gaia. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Paul nameth, and noteth their estimation (as himself expoundeth it) james, and Peter, and john, who were esteemed to be pillars. Wherefore, albeit jerom speak hardly of Paul, that he had not had security of preaching the gospel, unless it had been approved by these: yet the authority which he giveth Peter, he giveth other Apostles, james, and john, with him: and therefore a pre-eminence in estimation, not in power; not in supremacy, but in credit. For, if by [authority] he meant supreme power: james and john should have it over the Apostles, as well as Peter had. But they (you say) were equal in power to the rest, and inferior to Peter. Then jerom, by [authority] which he gave to Peter, meant not the supremacy. Hart. The primacy of Peter doth prove it more forcibly: which is the next prerogative. And that is given to him, not only by S. Austin, but also by S. Cyprian, as I have declared. Rainoldes. What need you to allege me S. Austin, and S. Cyprian? Did I deny his primacy? Hart. Why? Do you not deny it? Rainoldes. If I do: let me be smitten, not with the blunt weapon of the words of men (for so I may justly term them in this comparison:) but with the sharp twoedged sword of God's word. For, m Mat. 10.2. it is written in S. Matthewes gospel: these are the names of the twelve Apostles; the first is Simon, called Peter. Now, if he were the first: then he had the primacy. For although the reason be not so plain in English, because we have not a fit word derived from our English [first] as 1 Primatus. primacy is derived from the [ 2 Primus. first] in Latin: yet they who know reason will never deny, but that he that is first, hath the first●ship (if I might speak so) that is to say, the primacy. But this is such a primacy, as a foreman of the Quest is wont to have in juries: not a primacy of power, as over inferiors; but a primacy of order, as amongst equals. Hart. The primacy of order is a colourable show, whereby you may avoid S. Matthew. But Austin and Cyprian cannot be so avoided. For their words are witnesses, they meant a farther primacy: and what should that be, but a primacy of power? Which because they learned (as it is likely) out of S. Matthew: thereof do I gather, that S. Matthew meant a primacy of power, and not of order only. Rainoldes. And because S. Matthew, (as it is more likely) meant not a primacy of power to one there, where n Mat. 10.5. he showeth that Christ gave the same power to all the Apostles: thereof do I gather that he meant a primacy of order only, not of power. But Austin and Cyprian meant a farther primacy, you say. Perhaps they did. Therefore a primacy in power? It doth not follow. Nay, it is manifest, they meant it not of power. o De baptism. contra Don. l. 2. c. 1. For Austin doth build it upon the ground of Cyprian: and p De unit. eccles. Cyprian doth teach, that Christ gave 1 Parem potestatem Apostolis omnibus. equal power to all the Apostles. The truth is, they meant a primacy in calling: to wéet, that 2 Petrus, quem p●imum Dominus elegit. the Lord did choose Peter first, as q Epist. 71. ad Quintum. Cyprian doth speak expressly. And whether S. Matthew regarded this also, in that he numbered Peter, first: I can not define. But whether he did, or no; it is no farther primacy than I granted you by the foreman of the Quest: who is called first, as he is reckoned fi●st; and so both in order and calling hath a primacy, which he hath not in power. Hart. A primacy in calling? Nay yet you had done better to have cleaved still to the primacy of order. For Peter, in order was the first in deed: and so I deny not but he might have been, though he had been equal in power to his brethren. But he was not the first in calling. For S. r Comment. in 2. epist. ad Corinthios cap. 12. Ambrose saith: Andrew first followed our Saviour before Peter, and yet Andrew received not the primacy, but Peter. And S. s De baptism. contr. Donat. l. 2. c. 1. Augustine's words, [the primacy of the Apostles is conspicuous and pre-eminent with excellent grace in Peter,] do plainly import, that he meant a primacy not in calling, but pre-eminence. Rainoldes. You say that Peter had not a primacy in calling: for S. Ambrose saith so. What, if I should answer, He had a primacy in calling: for S. Cyprian saith so. Or, to help S. Cyprian (if he have smaller credit with you,) for S. t In Ezechielem homil. 18. Gregory saith so: 3 Primus in Apostolatum vocatus. Peter was called to the Apostleship first. But there is no dissension between them and Ambrose, if all their words be weighed. For Ambrose saith, that Andrew did first follow Christ: and they say, that Peter was called first of Christ. The truth of both which is plain by the scriptures. For u john 1. ver. 40. Andrew followed Christ, before Peter knew him: and he brought Peter unto Christ. But x ver. 42. Christ said to Peter, y Comment. in epist. ad Gal. cap. 1. Thou shalt be called Cephas, (wherein he meant him the Apostleship,) before he spoke a word of the Apostleship to Andrew. And so doth Ambrose seem himself to expound his meaning otherwhere: affirming of Peter, that 4 Primus erat inter Apostolos, cui salvator delegaverat curam ecclesiarum. he was the first among the Apostles to whom our Saviour had committed the charge of the churches. Whereby he giveth Peter the primacy in being called to the Apostleship: though he gave a primacy in discipleship (as it were) I mean, in following Christ, to Andrew. As for S. Augustine's words, which (you say) import that he meant a primacy, notin calling, but pre-eminence: you should have rather said that he meant a primacy, in calling, & pre-eminence both. For out of all doubt he meant a primacy in calling. But your friends, who dismember the sayings of the Fathers, do stand in your light, that you can not see it. For as z Princip. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 13. Stapleton did cut out * Quia primus erat inter Apostolos. And so he leaneth Ambrose to say, that it was meet Paul should desire to see Peter, to whom our Saviour had committed the charge of the churches. As if to him alone: not to the rest of the Apostles. the former words of Ambrose, that Peter might be thought the only man who had the charge of the churches, not the first of them who had it: so hath Torrensis cut of the later words of Austin, that the primacy of Peter might be thought a primacy in power, not in calling; or, if in calling, in power too. The primacy of the Apostles is conspicuous and praeeminent with excellent grace in the Apostle Peter: thus saith Torrensis out of Austin. And these are b De baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 2. cap. 1. Augustine's words: but his words say farther, that Peter the Apostle, in whom that grace and primacy are so pre-eminent, 5 A posteriore apostolo Paulo esse correctum. was corrected by Paul a later Apostle. Wherein, naming Paul, [a later Apostle,] as made Apostle, after Peter, in time: he showeth, a Confession. Augustinian. lib. 1. cap. 9 tit. 1. that of the other side he meant by [the primacy,] that Peter was an Apostle, in time, before Paul. As Ambrose saith of the chiefest of the Apostles, that they were before Paul, 6 Non dignitate, sed tempore. not in dignity, but in time. And d Epist. 71. ad Quintum. Cyprian (whom Austin allegeth, and followeth) doth use the word [ 7 Vt diceretse primatum tenete: et obtemperari a novellis & posteris sibi potius oportere. primacy] in the same sense of being first in time also. Wherefore, the Fathers prove not your supremacy by giving the prerogative of primacy to Peter. c Comment. in 2. epist. ad Cor. cap. 12. Hart. The bare name of primacy is not enough to prove it. But some by that name have meant a supremacy. And surely, the pre-eminence with excellent grace, which Austin giveth Peter, doth note a higher primacy, then either of order, or calling, or time: though it with all too. Rainoldes. It doth so, I grant. And I noted that, in the third prerogative which the Fathers give him: namely, principality. For c De bapt. contr. Donatist. lib. 2. cap. 1. Austin, having joined his primacy and pre-eminence with excellent grace together, doth term them both, in one, 8 Principatum apostolatus. the principality of the Apostleship. Which if some have meant by the name of primacy, as perhaps they have: they might, because the word is borrowed often times from the proper signification of the first in order, to signify the chief in quality. And so, when f In johannem Tractat. 124. Austin saith, that Peter was 9 Natura unus homo, gratia unus Christianus abundantiori gratia v●us idemque primus: Apostolus. a man by nature; a Christian by grace; by more abundant grace, an Apostle of Christ, yea, the first Apostle: by, the first Apostle, he meant the chief Apostle; the principality, by the primacy. But this principality of the Apostleship, this pre-eminence of the primacy with grace so excellent and abundant, cometh no nearer unto your supremacy then did the primacy of order. For, to be chief in grace, is one thing: and, to be chief in power, an other. Hart. And is it not a great grace, to be chief in power? Rainoldes. As you say: the greatest grace, that your Popes of long time have fought for. Yet there is a difference between grace and power. Which the Pope's g Distinct. 20. c. Decretales. Lawyers have observed well: as it behoved them to do. For many Doctors have been endued with greater 1 Gratia sancti spiritus. grace of the holy Ghost, then sundry Popes, saith Gratian: yet in the deciding of controversies and causes the writings of the Doctors are of less authority than the Pope's decrees. Why? because the Popes are in 2 Potestate. power above them. But what speak I of Doctors? when the meanest Christians may pass the Pope in grace, as it is confessed by Cardinal h In summa de Eccles. lib. 2. cap. ●2. Turrecremata. Who, handling the question between the Pope and the Church, whether of them is greater, when he had set down the reason of his adversaries, that the Church is greater, because it is the body, the Pope a member of it, and the whole must needs be greater than the part: he answereth thereto, that, the question is not whether the Church be greater than the Pope, simply, to weet, 1 Perfectione gratiae, & a●plitudine virtutum. in perfection of grace, and ampleness of virtues; * Quoniam etiam una vetula potest esse hoc modo perfection ac major ipso Papa. for even an old woman may in this sort be perfiter and greater than the Pope himself; but 2 Potestate jurisdictionis▪ in power of jurisdiction (he saith) the Pope is greater. Wherefore if the Pope's supremacy do stand in power of jurisdiction, and a woman may be above him in grace: then Peter might excel with the pre-eminence of grace, as Austin saith he did: and yet not excel in supremacy of power, which you conclude of it. Else, you must take the supremacy from Peter, and give it to the blessed virgin. Unless you you will deny that she excelled him in grace. Hart. I will not deny it. Neither did I mean to prove the supremacy by the pre-eminence of grace, alone, in Peter: but by the pre-eminence of so excellent grace, concurring with the primacy. Whereto, because you think these privileges (touched by Austin) do not prove it: the title of the Prince of the Apostles, which As the Rhemistes say, In the argum. of the epist. of S. Peter: concluding thereof, that Christ made him his vicar. all antiquity giveth him, may add weight and strength. Rainoldes. Which all antiquity giveth him? That speech is too lavishing. Beside that, 1 Prudentius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. hymn .2. Duo Apostolorum principes. As the Rhemists also note, in the tab. after the acts of the Apostles: not considering, that so Christ must have two vicar's by their conclusion. some of them who give it to him, give it to Paul also. But suppose that all: and to him only. What is there implied more in this title, than I have granted you already? For must he not be needs the Prince of the Apostles, to whom the principality of the Apostleship is allowed? And if the principality of the Apostleship infer not your supremacy: can you infer a supreme head by the Prince of the Apostles? But the name of Prince perhaps doth deceive you, or you deceive others by it. For our English tongue doth use it to note a sovereign power in government: as i jer. 26.10. the Princes of juda, k Ezek. 4●. 9. the Princes of Israel, l Mat. 20. ●5. the Princes of the Gentiles are named in the scriptures. Whereas the Fathers used it (after the Latin phrase) for chief, and most excellent: as Plato is named the prince of the Philosophers. As Plato, saith m Aduersus Pelagianos, lib. 1. Vt Plato princeps philosophorum: ita Pe●●us Apostolorum fuit. jerom, was prince of the philosophers, so was Peter of the Apostles. Wherefore, this is all you may conclude of it, that Peter did excel amongst the Apostles, for grace and gifts of grace: as Plato did excel among the Philosophers for wit, and gifts of wit. In the which conclusion (that you may perceive what I give to Peter, and refuse it, if you mislike it:) by the gifts of grace I mean all the blessings, wherewith the Lord did honour him; by excelling in them, I mean that he did pass, not all the Apostles in them all, but every one in some or other. For john, the disciple, whom the Lord loved, who wrote the Gospel so divinely, In the beginning was the word, who saw by revelation the things that were to come, and wrote them by the spirit of prophecy: john excelled Peter in many gifts of grace, as n Aduersus jovinian. lib. 1. jerom declareth. And Paul excelled him farther even in the chiefest gifts: in so much that o De bapt cont. Donatist. l. 2. c. 1. Austin who giveth 1 Excellenti gratia. excellent grace to Peter, p In psal. 130. doth give 2 Excellentissi●ae ●●it gratiae. most excellent grace to Paul; and saith that he received more grace, and laboured more, than all the rest of the Apostles, and is therefore called q Apostolus. A●g. contra duas epist. Pelagianorum lib. 3. cap. 3. the Apostle, by an excellency. But Peter of the other side excelled Paul in primacy, that he was chosen first: and john in age, that he was elder: in respect whereof he was preferred before him ( r Hierom. adverse. jovinian. lib. 1. Aetati delatum est, quia Petrus era● signior. by jeroms opinion) to be the chief of the Apostles. And this is it, which jerom, and other Fathers meant by Peter's principality: if you will give them leave to be their own interpreters. They did not mean to call him Prince of the Apostles, as the Pope desireth to be Prince of Bishops. Hart They did mean to call him the mouth, and the top, the highest, the Precedent, and the head of the Apostles. For these, (as I have showed) are their own words, by which, a pre-eminence in government is proved, and not in grace only. Rainoldes. These in deed come nearer to the point in question, because they touch government: at the least some of them. For some, as s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the highest (and so the top it may be too,) seem to have been meant rather of pre-eminence in grace, then in government. But if you will refer them unto both: it skilleth not. For they can betoken no more than the rest. And the rest do signify, although a pre-eminence in government, such as it is: yet nothing in comparison of your supremacy. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Peter is called by Eusebius hist. eccle. lib. 2. cap. 14. This is plain by that, which was agreed betwixt us, t Chapter. 4. Division 1. when we spoke of the practice of Peter's authority in the Acts of the Apostles. For when I granted him to be as the Speaker of the Parliament in England, or the Precedent of a court of Parliament in France, and showed the great difference (out of u Franc. Duar. de sacris eccle. min. acbene. l. 3. c. 2. a lawyer of your own) between this pre-eminence, and that supremacy which you claim: you rejected the lawyer, as either ignorant, or unfaithful, and refused this preeminence as not importing that supremacy; because it hath not sovereign power, nay, in power is under the body of the assembly, above which it is in a prerogative of honour. Yet, this pre-eminence, is all, that is given to Peter by the titles of the mouth, the head, the Precedent of the Apostles. Wherefore, it is evident that by those titles your Papal supremacy is not given to him. Hart. It may by your similitudes be probably thought, that some of the rest might note such a pre-eminence in government (as you speak of) without a sovereignty of power. But, the title of head hath greater strength in it. For, the Speaker is not called with us, in England, the head of the Parliament. That title is reserved to the Princ e alone. Rainoldes. But x ●s it is showed before out of Duaren, who saith of that court, Cuius curiae caput es●● Praeses dicitur. the Precedent of a Court of Parliament in France, is called head of the Court: and Austin (or rather he, whom you alleged in the name of Austin) expoundeth 1 caput. head, by 2 praepositus. Precedent: and the name of head (as z Chap. 1. Division 2. I have proved out of the Scriptures) is used to note a pre-eminence of other things, & not of power (much less of Princely power) only. Then what reason is there, y Author quaest ex Nou. Test. qu●est. 75. but jerom, in saying that Peter was appointed head, might signify the pre-eminence not of a Prince but of a Speaker? We give not in England, the name of head unto the Speaker. True. Neither give we the name of Speaker to the Prince. But Peter hath them both. For he is called the mouth, and head of the Apostles. If the one debase him not to the meanness of a Speakers function: why should the other advance him to the highness of a Prince's sovereignty? Hart. S. jeroms * This is the reason, & place of S. jerom, whereon Sixtus Senensis doth gather Peter's kingly powers: mentioned before, Chap. 2. Diuis. 3. reason showeth, that he rather meant a sovereignty as of a Prince. For he ●aith, that Peter was chosen, one, amongst the twelve, to the intent, that (a head being appointed) occasion of schism might be taken away. And how can occasion of schism be taken away, unless that one have sovereign power to govern all? Rainoldes. Why? Do you not think that France appointed Precedents in the Courts of Parliament for the better ordering of them in their doings, that occasion of strife might be taken away? What? In free States, which are ruled in common, not 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. by one Prince but 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. by the best men, or 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. by the whole people: do not their stories show, that one had a pre-eminence, (as Each of the Consuls for his month. Sueton. in julio, cap. 20. the Consul at Rome, b Each of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, for their wecke: each 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. for his day. Liban. argument. orat. Demost. in Androtion. the Provost at Athens,) though the sovereignty were in many, who had like authority and power amongst themselves? And did they not appoint this one, to be the chief, and head of their company, that occasion of strife might be taken away? So fared it with Peter amongst the Apostles in governing the church, whose state if we compare with the states of common wealths, we shall find that it was an aristocraty, not a monarchy, as the Philosophers term it; not having Peter as a Prince, but the Apostles as the best men, to govern it in common. Yet, as in all assemblies wherein many meet about affairs of government, there must needs be one for order's sake and peace, to begin, to end, to moderate the actions: so was that pre-eminence given to Peter amongst the Apostles, that all things might be done peaceably and orderly. And this to be the headship which S. jerom meant, himself c Hieron. adver. sus jovin. lib. 2. in that very place, in which he toucheth it, doth show manifestly. For, having set down his adversaries objection: But, thou sayest, the church is built upon Peter: he answereth thereto, Although the same be done in another place 1 Super omnes Apostolos. on all the Apostles, and 2 Cuncti claves regni coelorum accipiant. they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, & the strength of the church is grounded on them 3 Ex aequo. equally: yet therefore is one chosen amongst the twelve, that (a head being appointed) occasion of schism may be taken away. Of the which sentence the former branch showeth that by the name of head, used in the later, he could not mean that Peter had a sovereign power over the Apostles. For all Peter's power is comprised in the keys that Christ did promise him, and in the building of the church upon him. But all the Apostles receive the keys, by jeroms judgement: and the church is built upon them all equally. Wherefore by jeroms judgement, Peter was not over the Apostles in power. If not in power; & yet in part of government: in what, but in that pre-eminence, which I spoke of? S. jerom therefore, saying, that Peter was appointed head of the Apostles, did mean that pre-eminence among the Apostles, and not a sovereignty above them. Hart. The words of S. jerom do speak somewhat too liberally of the Apostles, in that he saith the church is built upon them all equally. And, as D. d Princi. doct. lib. 6. cap. 7. Stapleton noteth very well, 1 Distinctio, d● his quae a patribus dogmaticé & quae contentio s● scribuntur, in verbis Hieron umi locum habet. the distinction touching things written by the Fathers, some by way of doctrine, and some of contention, is verified in them. For here, by occasion that he reasoneth against jovinian, who alleged (against the honour of virginity) that Christ preferred Peter, a married man, before the rest: he doth lessen and extenuate the authority of Peter, (as far as truth did give him leave,) making the rest equal to him for the Apostleship; yet affirming plainly, that he was head of the rest. Rainoldes. jerom wrote many things in deed against jovinian by way of contention rather, then of doctrine, to the disgrace of marriage. In so much that Hieron. in a●polog. ad Pammachium pro libris adversus jovinian. being therefore reproved by some, himself excuseth it, that he did rather strive than teach: and f Hieron. in epistola ad Pamm. Pammachius, a learned gentleman, his friend, did suppress the copies, and wished them to be concealed till he had corrected them. But neither was this place so reproved by them, or excused by him, for aught that may be gathered by his apology: nor is it to be noted, as savouring more of heat, than truth; for the substance of it agreeth with the scriptures. Yea Stapleton, who covereth it with this distinction, confesseth in effect as much at unawares: For, he saith that Extenuat Hieronymus (quantum per ueritat●m licuit) Petri autoritatem. jerom doth lessen and extenuate the authority of Peter, as far as truth did give him leave. Whereof it ensueth, that it is no untruth to say (as jerom doth) that all the Apostles had equal power with Peter. The name of head therefore, which jerom giveth him with the same breath, can by no means import a sovereign power over the Apostles. Unless you will make him so absurd, and brainsick, as that he should say: Though none of the Apostles were sovereign of the rest, but they had equal power all; yet was one of them above the rest in power, and had the soverain-headship of them. Hart. Wel. Howsoever you handle jeroms words: he saith in flat terms that which you denied. And therefore he maketh against you with us. Rainoldes. In what point? Or how? Hart. You denied that Peter was head of the Apostles. jerom saith, he was. Peter was not head: and Peter was head. Is there not a contradiction between your words, and his? Rainoldes. No more, then between the words of john and Christ Christ said of john Baptist: g Mat. 11.14, this is Elias. john Baptist said of himself, h john 1.21. I am not Elias. john Baptist is Elias: and john Baptist is not Elias. Is there not a contradiction between the words of Christ and john? Hart. No. For Christ meant one way: and john Baptist, an other. Christ, that he was Elias in spirit; as coming i 〈◊〉 1.17. in the spirit and power of Elias: john Baptist, that he was not Elias in person; which the Pharisees meant. Rainoldes. You have answered well. So jerom meant one way: and I an other. jerom, that he was head in a pre-eminence of government; as moderating the actions in assemblies of the Apostles: I, that he was not head in sovereignty of power; which the Papists mean. And thus, to conclude, you may see that the Fathers whom you allege for Peter: some give him a prerogative of authority, some of primacy, some of principality, but none of your supremacy. For, your supremacy doth consist in power: and they give equal power to Peter with the rest. Hart. Equal power (I grant) in respect of the Apostleship, but not of pastoral charge. For Peter was over them in that, even as the Pope is over Bishops. And so k Sraplet. prin●. dectrin. lib. 6. cap. 7. & 14. etc. we do expound the words of S. Cyprian, S. jerom, S. Chrysostom, and other of the Fathers: who give equal power to the Apostles with Peter. Rainoldes. Yet more of these Coleworts? I have proved l Chapt. 3. Diuis. 1. already that Peter's pastoral charge, and his Apostleship, is all one: and therefore, if they were equal to him in the Apostleship, the were in pastoral charge too. But if no other reason will put you to silence: the Popes own authority may force you to it here. For, in the Cyprian set forth by him at Rome, m Annotat. in Cyprian. excusum Romae a Paulo Manutio. he noteth it to be considered, that, whereas Cyprian saith, The rest of the Apostles had equal power with Peter, this must be understood * De aequalitate Apostolatus, qui cum Apostolis morientibus cessavit, nec ad Episcopos transmit. of the equality of Apostleship, which ceased when the Apostles died, and passed not over unto Bishops. The drift of which note implieth a distinction of Apostles, and Bishops: that it is not with Bishops in respect of the Pope, as it was with the Apostles in respect of Peter. And that doth carry with it a check of your opinion: which maketh the Apostles underlings to Peter, as Bishops to the Pope. Hart. You know not who made that note in the Roman Cyprian: for there is no man's name to it. But if the Pope either made it himself, or allowed of it being made by others to whom he did commit that charge: he set down (as a private Doctor) his own opinion, which they who list may follow. But this is my opinion, which I have set down: and to that I stand. Rainoldes. I am glad you think not as the Pope doth, at least, in one point. God grant, that you may come forward in the rest: to dissent from him, not in this one point alone, but in many. Howbeit whether he, or others made that note: they set it forth with greater authority and privilege, then as a private Doctor's fancy. Neither is it likely that they would have granted so much to the Apostles, unless the truth had wrong it from them. Let your righteousness, M. Hart, if not exceed, yet match the righteousness of Scribes and Pharisees: and yield to this conclusion (which riseth of our conference,) that Peter was not head of all the Apostles, as you do take the name of head. Hart. You shall conclude yourself alone so, for me. For I do protest, that I believe it not, nor mind to yield unto it. The sixth Chapter. The two main grounds, on which the supremacy usurped by the Pope, doth lie. The former, that there should be one Bishop over all in earth: 1 because Christ said, There shall be one flock, and one pastor; 2 and among the jews there was one judge, and high Priest. The later, that the Pope is that one Bishop: 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome, (as some say,) 4 and the Pope succeed Peter. Both examined, and showed to fail in the proof of the Pope's supremacy. RAINOLDES. The first Division. Then a Mat. 11.19. wisdom must be content to be justified of her children. Howbeit God is able to change your hart in such sort, that as in the Gospel, b Mat. 21.29. he, who said he would not go into the vinyeard, repented afterward, and went: so you may yield to this on better advise, to which you say you will not yield. Though, if your opinion of Peter's supremacy were granted to be true: it proveth not your title to the Pope's supremacy (the principal point in question) which you claim thereby. For let us feign, that Peter was head of the Apostles. How followeth it thereof, that the Bishop of Rome is head of all the Church of Christ? Hart. It followeth by * Chapt. 1. Di●is. 2. and Chap. ● Diuis. 1. the second part of my reason: The Bishop of Rome succeed Peter in the same power over Bishops, that he had over the Apostles. For, if Peter's power over the Apostles did reach unto the whole flock, both of the sheep and the lambs: then must the same power of his successor over Bishop's reach by like reason unto the same flock, and so to all the Church of Christ. Rainoldes. But how do you prove that the Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in his power? Hart. Because that the power committed to Peter was not to die with Peter. For this had not been agreeable to the goodness and wisdom of Christ: upon whom it lay to provide for his church until the end of the world, as c In Psalm. ●●. Austin showeth he did. Think not (saith he to the Church) think not thyself forsaken, because thou seest not Peter, because thou seest not Paul, because thou seest not them by whom thou art begotten. Of thine offspring there is grown unto thee a fatherhood: in steed of thy fathers, children are borne unto thee. Rainoldes. The goodness and wisdom of our Saviour Christ provided for his Church, as S. d Ephes. 4.11. Paul witnesseth, by giving Pastors, and teachers: Pastors, and teachers; not one, to the whole; but many to the several parts of his Church. For they, whom Christ hath chosen to serve him in the ordinary feeding of his flock, to instruct his people, and guide them in the way of life, until the end of the world: are named in the scripture sometime e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 20.17. & 1. Pet. 5.1. Elders, of their age; sometime f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Act. 20.28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 1. Pet. 5.2. Bishops of their duty. And he hath taken order by his spirit and word that g Act. 14. 2●. & 20.28. Philip. 1. ●. Tit. 1.5. such should be appointed in every Church, through every city. This was it that Austin regarded, when he said; the church is not forsaken although she see not the Apostles: considering that in steed of the Apostles, she hath Bishops. For * Patres mis●i sunt apostoli: pro apostolis filii natisunt tibi, constituti sunt episcopi. August. in Psalm. 44. by the name of [Fathers] he meant the Apostles, and by the name of [children] bishop's: In steed of thy fathers, children are borne unto thee. Which, how it may serve your purpose, I see not. Unless perhaps you mean, that (amongst those children) the Bishop of Rome should be heir, as eldest: and Bishops of other cities should be handled, all, like younger brethren. But Austin saith not so. Hart. It is proved by Austin that our Saviour Christ provided for his church. And this (I grant) he did by giving several Pastors unto several flocks: but so, that he committed the charge of them all to one supreme Pastor; which is the Bishop of Rome. Rainoldes. Thus I hear you say. But I had rather hear, Thus saith the Lord. Hart. You shall hear it. The Lord saith that h joh. 10.16. there shall be one flock, and one shepherd, or (as we translate it) one fold and one Pastor. * Staplet▪ princip doct. lib. 6. cap. 15. whereof I make this reason. By the name of Pastor is noted an ordinary government and charge, which hath relation to a flock: and therefore, as long as the flock continueth, the Pastor's office must continue; the office of one Pastor, as the flock is one. It continued in Peter, when Christ made him supreme Pastor. Now, when Peter died, it should continue in his successor. And the successor of Peter is the Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome therefore is the supreme Pastor of the Church of Christ. Rainoldes. I perceive your Pope can make no show of title to supreme-headship of the Church, unless he put Christ from the possession of it. For Christ by [one Pastor] doth signify himself: as it may appear by the drift of all his speech, wherein he maintaineth his office and authority i joh. 9 vers. 16. & 24. & ●29. against the slanders of the Phariseis. k joh. 10.14. I am, saith he, the good Pastor, and know mine own, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. Other sheep I have also, which are not of this fold: and them must I bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shallbe one flock, one Pastor. One Pastor, who but he, of whom the words afore, and after, are meant? He, who is the good Pastor; who knoweth his sheep; who layeth down his life for them; who hath other sheep beside the jews, to weet, the Gentiles, whom he will bring to his fold; and so of them both the Church shallbe, as one flock; obeying Christ, as one Pastor. This is the one Pastor, that our Saviour meant. Which if you will not believe on my word, or rather on his word who spoke it: believe l ●ibli● castiga●a a Theologis ●ouaniensibus, excusa a Christophoro Plantino Antuerpiae. your own Bible, expounding it by conference of scripture with scripture, of john with Ezekiel. In whom God doth promise that m Ezek. 37. vers. 22. he will make (of Israel, & juda) one people: and n vers. 24. set his servant David (that is, Christ, the son of David) to be one Pastor unto them all, o Ezek. 34.23. and he shall feed them. Thus, in God's law, the words are meant of Christ. The Pope * The canon ●aw. c. unam sanctam. extra. de maioritat. & obedient. in his law, will have himself meant by them. You are angry with us, when we call him Antichrist. Is not the name of Antichrist too gentle for him, who claimeth that to himself, which is proper to Christ? Hart. The Pope will have himself to be meant by them, as the vicar of Christ: and so they do belong to him. Though they belong also to Christ: which we deny not. For thus saith the Pope. Of the Church, which is one, there is one body, and 1 unum capu● non duo capita▪ quasi monstrum, Christus videlicet & Christi vicari●s, Petrus, Petriqué successor. one head, not two heads, as a monster, namely Christ and Christ's vicar Peter, and Peter's successor: sith the Lord saith to Peter himself, Feed my sheep: my sheep, saith he, in general, not in particular these or these: whereby he is understood to have committed all to him. Whether they be therefore Grecians or others, who say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors: they must needs confess themselves not to be of the sheep of Christ: 2 Dicente Domino in johann, unum ovile & unicum e●se pastorem. Sith the Lord saith in john, that there is one fold and one Pastor. Which words, though they conclude the Pope to be that one Pastor: yet you must not take them as though the Pope meant them of himself alone, but that they are verified first in Christ, then in Peter, lastly in himself. And so there continueth one Pastor by succession, even as the Church continueth one. Rainoldes. Do you know what you say, when you say, there continueth one Pastor by succession, Peter after Christ, the Pope after Peter? I hope you do it ignorantly, * 1. Tim. 1. ●●. and therefore may obtain mercy, though you blaspheme in it. Hart. Blaspheme? why say you so? Rainoldes. Because you deny Christ the Son of God to be the one Pastor, and so the head of his Church. For he to whom an other succeed in an office, doth cease himself to bear the office: as p Act. 24. ●●. Felix did cease to be governor of jury, when Festus was in place to be his successor. Wherefore if the office of that one Pastor continue by succession: then doth it wholly rest in the successor, that is the Pope; and Christ, the predecessor is discharged of it. Hart. You speak as though we named the Pope, Christ's successor: which we are far from. For we know that Priests after the order of Aaron had therefore successors, q Heb. 7. 2●. because they were not suffered to endure by reason of death. But Christ endureth ever, as being a Priest after the order of Melchisedech: and so hath no successors. We name S. Peter, Christ's vicar: the Pope Christ's vicar, and successor of Peter: but neither Peter, nor the Pope, successor of Christ. Rainoldes. If it be as you say, then raze out for shame that profane speech out of your r Sa●rar. ceremon. Roman. eccl. lib. 1. 〈◊〉 1. sacred Ceremonies of the Church of Rome: * Ch●●●tus primum denominatione successorem instituit, dicens Petro, pasce oves mea●: & ea ratione Petrus Clementem etiam nominavit. Christ did first name and ordain Peter, his successor, saying to him, Feed my sheep: and in the same sort did Peter also name Clemens. But sith you acknowledge that Christ is one Pastor, and yet hath no successor: you have given over the fortress of that which you meant to seize on by those words of Christ, that there should be one flock, one Pastor. For where as you said that this sovereign Pastor must & doth continue one by succession, in Peter, and the Pope: you confess now, that without succession he doth continue one in person, even Christ, s 1. Pet. 2.25. the Pastor of our souls, Heb. 13.20. the great, u 1. Pet. 5.4. the chief Pastor, x revel. 1.13. & ●. 1. who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, that is, of the seven (and by consequent of all) Churches. Hart. I confess, that Christ continueth the Pastor of our souls, the chief Pastor, and hath no successor, as succession is taken properly. But he made a vicar, that is a chief Pastor, under him, in earth to continue by succession. Whom also he meant by the name of one Pastor, and not himself alone. Rainoldes. The very words of scripture, and circumstances of the text do prove the contrary. For, to whom did Christ speak, when he said: y john. 10. vers. 15. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold: and them must I bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shallbe one flock, one Pastor? was it not to z vers. 7. & 19 the jews? Hart. To the jews. Rainoldes. Then by other sheep, not of that fold, he meant the Gentiles. Hart. The Gentiles. Rainoldes. And it was Christ's office, to bring them also to his fold. Hart. It was so. Roinoldes. To bring them by his voice, which they should hear. Hart. What then? Rainoldes. Is not he a verse. ●. the Pastor, b vers. 3. whose voice the sheep hear? Hart. Who denieth it? Rainoldes. Then if the jews and Gentiles hear the voice of Christ, and so become one flock: how could he mean any but himself alone by the one Pastor? Hart. Himself alone (I grant) directly, and first: but secondarily, and by consequent, his vicar too, Peter, and Peter's successor. For Christ, while he lived in flesh upon the earth, did not bring the Gentiles: c Mat. 15.24, he was not sent (he said) but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In the which respect S. Paul calleth him d Rom. 15.8. the minister of circumcision, because he did execute his office, and ministry, only towards the people of circumcision, that is, the jews. The Gentiles he did bring after his ascension, by the ministery of his servants, chief of S. Peter: whom e Act. 10.11. having instructed by a vision from heaven, he sent him to Cornelius, & f Act. 15.7. chose him that the Gentiles should hear by his mouth the word of the Gospel, and believe. Wherefore, as Christ said, that he must bring the Gentiles, though he meant to bring them not by his own preaching, but by the mouth of Peter; and so Peter brought them after a sort too: likewise he gave himself the name of one Pastor, though he fed his flock not in his own person, but in his vicar; and so might he mean his vicar too thereby. Rainoldes. This is a greater argument, that he meant not Peter, nor Peter's successor (as you term him) by the name of one Pastor. For if he meant himself, not as he lived in the flesh, but as he g Eph. 1. vers. 2● reigneth in glory: then meant he that prerogative which is only his, as h vers. 22. head of the Church, and may be no way given unto flesh and blood. For the proof whereof we are to weigh farther, that in saying i joh. 10. ver. 16 I must bring them, & they shall hear my voice: he meaneth effectual bringing, and hearing, through which they, who are k ver. 4. & 27. his sheep, do follow him, and l ver. 28. he doth give them eternal life, and they shall never perish: and none shall pluck them out of his hand. Now, whom Christ bringeth after this manner, he bringeth them by two means: by the preaching of his word, and the working of his Spirit. As he worketh by his Spirit: so he hath no vicar, himself doth m Act. 16.14. open the heart of Lydia: and n Mat. 1.8. baptise with the holy Ghost: and o Mat. 28.20. is with his disciples still until the end of the world. As he calleth by his word: so are all ministers of the word, his vicar's. For he sendeth them in his steed, and preacheth unto men by them. So he saith to the p Mat. 10.40. twelve Apostles, He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and to the q Luc. 10.16. seventy disciples, He that heareth you, heareth me. So Paul saith of r ●. Cor. 5.20. himself, Timothee, Silvanus, and the rest that laboured with him, We are ambassadors for Christ, God as it were beseeching you through us: we pray you in Christ's steed, be ye reconciled to God. First therefore, sith the Spirit doth make the word effectual, and Christ hath no vicar, as he worketh by his Spirit: it followeth, that in naming himself, the one Pastor, who doth bring his sheep, and they hear his voice, he could imply no vicar. For the word doth sound in vain to the ear, unless the Lord do open the heart with his Spirit: and 1. Cor. 3.7. neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth, but God that giveth the increase. Again, if he had implied their ministery, by whom the sheep hear his voice, and so are brought: yet must that belong to many vicar's, not to one; or if to one, not to Peter. For they, who should be brought thereby, are the Gentiles: and Christ hath brought the Gentiles by many t Ephes. 4.11. Pastors and teachers, not only by the Apostles: nor amongst the Apostles by Peter chiefly, but by u Rom. 11.13. Paul: and that, through x Act. 13.2. the calling of the holy Ghost, and y Gal. 2.9. their agreement between themselves. Finally, if Christ had meant (as you distinguish it) himself first, and directly; secondarily, & by consequent Peter: it must be for his preaching the word to the flock. And what is this to Peter's successor the Pope: who preacheth not as Peter did? For, z Sacra●. cerem. Rom. eccles. lib. ●. sect. 4. he useth not to preach, but when he saith Mass; nor then, unless he list: and a sect. 5. he saith not Mass, but on a few high feasts; nor then, if he be let: and the Italian government, specially * As D. Alle● speaketh of it: in his Apolog. ●f the Engl. Se●●n. chapped. 6. the Papacy so discreetly managed, must needs have let's a number. His Princely cares do trouble him: he leaveth Priestly to the Friars. Wherefore, that sacrilegious usurper of Rome committeth two evils, against, both the head, and the body of the Church. Against the head: in that he maketh the prerogative of one Pastor common to all Popes, which is proper to Christ. Against the body: in that he claimeth the title of Christ's vicar, as proper to himself, which is common to all Pastors. Hart. Nay, you who b 〈◊〉. ●3. 4. revile the high priest of God, commit a great evil. But he committeth none at all. For he taketh not the prerogative of one Pastor as Christ, but under Christ. And he claimeth the title of Christ's vicar, by an excellency, as the chief, and general: though all other Bishops be Christ's vicar's also. Rainoldes. This is to role the stone of Sisyphus. You drive it up the hill, and still it slippeth backward: yet cease you not to strive, but you strive in vain. For though you fetch it up never so often, down again it will. All Bishops (you say) are the vicar's of Christ: but the Pope claimeth that title by an excellency. True. By an excellency he robbeth all Bishops of that honour, which Christ hath given them. For he doth account them all to be his vicar's, as Cardinal c In Summ. de eccles. lib. 2. cap●. 62. Turrecremata calleth them expressly the vicar's of the Pope: and proveth by d 2. q. 6. c. decre●to. c. sequenti. the Pope's own law, that they are so. Wherefore if you will have them Christ's vicar's too: the matter must be helped out with your distinction, that first, and directly, they are the Pope's vicar's; and Christ's, by a consequent, and secondarily. As for the man, whom you call the high priest of God: I know him not. For he is not the high priest, of the jews, I trow. And Christians have no high priest, but the Son of the Highest: even him, of whom e Heb. 7. 2●. it is written, such an high priest it became us to have, which is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens. Wherefore, I speak not the words of reviling, but of truth and modesty, when I call him a sacrilegious usurper, who taketh the crown of the king of kings, and setteth it on his own head. This doth that man of sin: who saith that * De necessitat● salutis omni humanae creaturae, subesse Romano Pontifici. c. unam sanctam. extravag de maiori●●. & obedient. it is necessary for every man unto salvation, to be subject to the Pope: and that they, who say he hath not charge over them, are not of Christ's sheep, because the Lord saith in john, that there shall be one flock and one pastor. Hart. You need not account it so heinous a matter to conclude that doctrine by these words of Christ. Chiefly, sith it is probable, that he meant them rather of the Pope then himself. For he saith, there shall be one flock and one Pastor: he saith not, there hath been; but, there shall be. Now himself, as being God, was always Pastor of the Gentiles also, no less than of the jews. And so in respect of him there had before been one flock, and one pastor. Wherefore sith he speaketh of a thing that should be, not that had been already: he might be well thought to have meant not himself but the Pope rather, who (in his steed) is Pastor both of jews and Gentiles. Rainoldes. Had the Gentiles always God for their Pastor, as well as the jews? What meant S. Paul then, who saith, f Eph. 2.12. to the Gentiles: ye were without Christ, and aliens from the common wealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, and had no hope, and were without God in the world? For g Psal. 23.1. & 80.1. God is called Pastor, in respect of them, whom he guideth, and feedeth with the food of life. So that if he were Pastor of the Gentiles always, as you say he was: then they were always faithful, and members of the Church, and had the hope of God in Christ. But if they were before without Christ, without hope, without God in the world, and aliens from the common wealth of Israel, that is, the Church, and strangers from the covenants of promise made to the faithful, as they were, S. Paul saith: then neither were they one flock with the jews, neither was God their one Pastor. wherefore what ●oeuer show of probability the Pope might seem to have for abusing those words to maintain his own pride: in truth they agree to him, h Eph. 2.14. who broke the stop of the partition-wall, and made of both one, that is to Christ jesus, and only to Christ. Hart. Well. If the words agree not to the Pope perhaps in one sense: they may in an other. For there are sundry senses of the holy scriptures, but in general two, as h Robert. Bellarmin. in lection. Roman. con●●. 1. quest. 5. Father Robert showeth whereof the one is called historical, or literal; the other, mystical, or spiritual. And so the speech of Christ touching one Pastor, might signify the Pope in a mystical sense, though not in the literal. As likewise the name of high priest, signifying the jewish literally, doth mystically betoken him. Rainoldes. That sense is the right sense of the scriptures, which the holy Ghost, the author of them, meant. Now, the holy Ghost hath uttered them in such sort, that not the words only do signify things, according to their natural sense: but the things also expressed by the words do signify other things, according to the lords ordinance, who shadowed that by figures in the old Testament, which is performed in the new. As, for example, it is written in i Exod. 12.46. the law of Moses, you shall not break a bone of him. These words are spoken touching the lamb of the passover: and signify, as they sound, that the jews should dress it whole, without breaking any bone thereof. But this thing doth signify a farther thing in secret: to weet, that when k john 19. 3●. Christ, who was represented & figured by the lamb, should suffer death to save us, a bone of him should not be broken. Thus, of one place there are two senses: the former called literal, because the letter, as it were that is the very words, being understood aright, do import it; and the later, mystical, because the thing imported and meant by the letter, doth betoken a deeper mystery. Of these, the literal sense is known to be the meaning of the holy Ghost. For words were made to open the conceits of our mind: and so are they used by the holy Ghost to show the will of God unto us. The mystical is known to be his meaning also, when himself revealeth it: as he hath done in that touching the lamb. Otherwise it is not. For men may devise many mystical senses of a place in scripture, and them, one contrary to an other: as often times they do. Which all could not be meant by the Spirit of truth: and whether any of them were, who can say? We have no assurance then of mystical senses: which may be men's fancies. Only the literal sense, which is meant undoubtedly by the holy Ghost, is of force to prove the assured truth, and therefore doth bind in matters of belief. And this is so clear that l Thom. Aquin. Summ. Theolo. part. 1. q. 1.211.10. Alfons. a Castr. advers. Haer. l. 1. c▪ 3. Sanders ●ocke of the Church chapped. 3. The narration of the Seminaries. your own Doctors acknowledge it, and teach it: even * Robert Bellarmin. contr. 1. quast. 5. he whom you alleged. For he saith, It is agreed between you and us 2 Ex solo literali sensu, pe ti debere argumenta efficacia. that forcible aguments ought to be drawn only from the literal sense: and that is surely known to be the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost. As for mystical senses, it is not always sure, whether the holy Ghost meant them: unless they be expounded in the scriptures, as that in john, you shall not break a bone of him. 3 His exceptis, stultum est ex mysticis sensibus velle eflicaciter probare dog●ata fidei. Which excepted, it is a folly to go about to prove the points of faith forcibly by mystical senses. Wherefore if it be not expounded in the scriptures, that the words of Christ (touching one Pastor) are meant, as of himself, by the literal sense; so, by the mystical, of the Pope: you see that Father Robert saith, it is a folly, to go about to prove the Pope's supremacy by them, if you will prove it forcibly. Now, what I say of one Pastor: the same I say of high Priest. By whom, m Exod. 28.4. the law of Moses doth signify the high priest, literally: n Heb. 8.5. the epistle to the Hebrews doth show that mystically he betokened Christ. But that the Pope was meant by him in any sense either literal or mystical: I find not in the scriptures. Hart. The second Division. But I find in the scriptures that Christians must still have a high Priest amongst them on earth, to be their chief judge. Rainoldes. Were find you that? Hart. In the seventeenth chapter of the book of Deuteronomie, even in these words. o Deut. 17.8. If there rise a matter too hard for thee in judgement between blood and blood, between 1 Causam & causam. vulgat. ●dit latin. cause & cause, between plague and plague, in the matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and go up to the place which the Lord thy God shall choose, and thou shalt come to the levitical priests, and to the judge, that shall be in those days, and ask, and they shall show thee the sentence of judgement. And thou shalt do according to that thing which they shall show thee from that place that the Lord shall choose: and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall inform thee. According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgement which they shall tell thee, shalt thou do. Thou shalt not decline from the thing which they shall show thee, neither to the right hand, nor to the left. And he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandment of the Priest who serveth then the Lord thy God: Vulgat. edit. ●x decreto judicis morietur homo ille. by the decree of the judge shall that man die, and thou shalt take away evil out of Israel. Here the high Priest is made the chief judge, to hear, and determine, hard and doubtful causes, amongst the people of God. And who amongst Christians is such a Priest and judge, but the Pope only? Rainoldes. Now the first chapter of the book of Genesis would serve you as well to prove the Pope's supremacy, if it were considered. For p Gen. 1.1. it is written there: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. r ●. unam sanctam. extravag de maioritat. & obedient. Hart. What mean you so to say? Rainoldes. Nay ask that of q Pope Boniface the eight. him who doth expound it so: saying, that whosoever resisteth his supremacy, resisteth God's ordinance; unless he feign (as Manichee did) that there are 1 Duo principia, sicut Manichaeus. two beginnings, which is false & heretical: because, as Moses witnesseth, 2 Non in princ●pijs, sed in principio, creavit Deus coelum & ●ecram. not, in the beginnings, but in the beginning God created heaven and earth▪ See, in the beginning, not, in the beginnings: and therefore not many are high Priests of the Church, but the Pope only. Hart. The place, which I alleged, doth plainly speak of the high Priest: and so it doth serve my purpose more fitly, than this, which doth not touch him. Howbeit, as learned men, when they have proved a point by stronger arguments, are wont to set it forth with floorishes of lighter reasons, rather to polished it as it were, then to work it and frame it: so the Pope having brought better evidence for proof of his supremacy, doth trim it up with this of Genesis, as you would say, by an allusion. Rainoldes. An illusion, you should say. But the places both, as well this of Genesis, as that of Deuteronomie, are taken in a mystical sense of your own: so that to win a matter which must be won by sound proof, they are both of like force, because that neither is of any. For the literal sense of that in Deuteronomie doth concern the jews: to whom the Lord spoke it by his servant Moses. Now, how dangerous it is to build, as upon scripture, things, which are not grounded upon the literal sense thereof: we may learn by the mystical sense of that place, which a Pope giveth; and no common Pope, but Innocentius the third, the Father of the Lateran-councel, in which your popish Shrift and Transubstantiation were enacted first. He, in a decretal (which is enroled in the h c. per venerabilem. extra. qui sint filii legitimi. canon law, as a rule of the government of the Church for ever) doth bring forth that same place of Deuteronomie, to prove that the Pope may exercise temporal jurisdiction not only in his own dominion, but in other countries too, on certain causes. And, * Sané, cum Deuteronomist, lex secunda interpretetur: ex vi vocabuli comprobatur, ut quod ibi decernitur in novo Testamento de beat observari. A principle for a Pope. because Deuteronomic is the second law, by interpretation: it is proved (saith he) by the force of the word, that what is there decreed aught to be observed in the new Testament. Upon the which principle he doth expound it thus: that the place which the Lord hath chosen, is Rome: the levitical Priests are his brethren, the Cardinals: the judge is himself, the vicar of Christ: the judgements are of three sorts; the firs●, between blood and blood, is meant of 1 Criminale, & civil. criminal & civil causes; the last, between plague and plague, of 2 Ecclesiasticum, & criminale. ecclesiastical and criminal; the middle, between cause & cause, pertaineth unto 3 Tam ecclesiasticum, ●uam 〈◊〉. both ecclesiastical & civil. In the which when any thing shallbe hard or doubtful: recourse must be had to the judgement of the See Apostolic (that is, of Rome:) whose determination if any man presumptuously refuse to obey, he is adjudged to die, that is, to be cut off, as a dead man, from the communion of the faithful by excommunication. Lo: this is a mystical sense of that place, which you alleged out of Deuteronomie. It runneth very roundly with the Pope's supremacy. But Christian States (I hope) will hold the literal sense against it. For if they allow this doctrine of Pope Innocentius, as catholic: the Pope must be supreme head of all Christians, both in ecclesiastical causes and civil. The * 2. Thess. 2.7. mystery of iniquity did work very fast, when the chiefest mysteries of the Romish faith were built upon such mystical senses. Hart. I know that the mystical senses of the scripture are of no strength to convince an adversary. But the literal sense of that which I alleged doth prove the point in question. For there lieth often times, within the literal, an other sense hidden: which is not directly uttered, and plainly, but is gathered and inferred by the force of argument. As, for example, s Exod. 3.6. God said to comfort Moses and the Israelites, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of jacob. These words in the first sense, do signify the covenant that God made with Abraham and with Abraham's seed, whom he chose to be his servants, and promised he would be their God. But t Mat. 22.32. Christ allegeth them to prove (against the Sadduces) the resurrection of the dead. Which he doth conclude by consequence of reason. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. He is the God of Abraham▪ Therefore Abraham is not dead. Abraham is a man consisting of two parts, the soul and the body. If Abraham then live, and yet his body be dead: his body must rise again, to the end that God may justly be called the God, not of Abraham's soul, but of Abraham. Wherefore, in that God is called the God of Abraham, it followeth (by discourse) that the bodies of men shall be raised from death to life. Is not this reason contained in the literal sense of the scripture, from which it is deduced? Rainoldes. Yes: and is of force to prove the point in controversy. For whatsoever followeth necessarily of the literal sense: that is as true and sound as the sense, whereof it followeth. But how will you gather so the Pope's supremacy from the place in Deuteronomie. Hart. By a reason, which I ground upon the likeness and proportion of the Church of Christ to the children of Israel. For if the Israelites had a high Priest to be their judge in matters of difficulty and doubt, between blood and blood, between cause & cause, between plague and plague: why should not we semblably have a high Priest to be the judge in our causes? Rainoldes. This reason is drawn from a similitude: that, as it was amongst the jews in the old Testament; so must it be amongst Christians in the new. Logicians say, that similitudes do halt of one foot. But this doth halt of both. For neither was the high Priest amongst the jews, judge of all those matters: neither doth it follow thereof, although he had been, that amongst Christians there must a high priest be likewise judge of all. Else, it must be lawful for all your priests to marry. For u levit. 21. 7· it was so amongst the jews. And Mass must be be said no where but at Rome. For the jews x Deut. 12.14. might not sacrifice, but in the place which the Lord had chosen. And y Deut. 16.16. all the males, amongst the jews, must go thither every year thrice. Which were overmuch for all your males, to Rome. Yet must they do it by your reason. For it is written in Deuteronomie. And because * Deuteronomium: of the greek words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Deuteronomie is the second law by interpretation: the force of the word proveth, that, what is there decreed, aught to be observed in the new Testament, saith Pope Innocentius. Hart. The condition of Christians is not in all respects like unto the jews, nor Rome unto jerusalem. And why it is not like in the matters which you mention: there may be reasons given. Rainoldes. May there be reasons given? Then reasons may be given, why your reason is nought. But, that you may see what a lame thing it is: mark the points whereon it standeth. First, the high Priest (you say) is the judge, to whom, for the deciding of hard and doubtful controversies, the Lord doth send the jews. This the scripture saith not: but maketh a difference between the judge and the Priest. For it giveth sentence of death, upon him, who refuseth to hearken 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the Priest, or to the judge. Wherein, by disjoining the Priest from the judge, it declareth plainly that the Priest was not the same that the judge. Hart. Our common edition in Latin doth not read it so: but in this sort: he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey Sacerdotis ●mperio: exiudicis decreto. the commandment of the Priest, by the decree of the judge shall that man die. You see it is here, the commandment of the Priest: & the decree of the judge is an other point. It is not, as you cite it, the Priest, or the judge. Rainoldes. It is not so in your Latin, which man hath translated. But it is so in the Hebrew, written by the Spirit of God. Hart. But we have a decree of the Council of Trent, z Concil. Trident. Session. 4. that our old and common edition in Latin shall be taken as authentical, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions: and that * Nemo illam reiicere quovis praetextu audeat vel praesumat. no man may dare or presume to reject it under any pretence. If no man may reject it under any pretence: than not under pretence of the Hebrew text. And that for great reason. For the Hebrew Bibles, which are extant now, are shamefully corrupted in many places by the jews, of spite and malice against Christians: as Bishop Lindan. de oped. gen. interpret. scripture. lib. 1. cap. 2. Lindan showeth largely and learnedly, in the defence of that decree of the Trent-councell. Rainoldes. This is a shameful slander brewed by Satan, and set a broach by Lindan; to the intent, that errors, which have prevailed in Popery, either by the fault of the Latin translator, or by the over sight of them who have mistaken him, should not be discovered and put to shame by the light of the Hebrew truth. And this shall appear by his arguments and dealings, if you will sift them in particular. If in general only you mean to use his name to discredit the truth, as b Staplet. princ. doct. l. 11. c. 12. your Doctor doth: I will send both you, and him, for an answer to three of the learnedst and fittest judges of this matter, that your church hath, even Isaac Levita, Arias Montanus, and Payva Andradius. Of whom c johan. Isaac Leu. German. defensio veritatis Hebra icae sacrarum scripturarum adversus libros tres reverendi D. Wilhelmi Lindani quos de optimo scripturas interpretandi genere inscripfit. the first, being Lindans own master, and professor of the Hebrew tongue in the university of Coolen, hath written three books in defence of the Hebrew truth against the cavils of his scholar. d Benedict. Arias Montanus de varia in Hebraicis libris lectione: &, de exemplari psalterii Anglicani. In sacro appatatu Regiorum Biblior. Tom. 6. The next, for his rare skill of tongues and arts, was put in trust by king Philip to set forth the Bible in Hebrew, Chaldee, Greek and Latin; wherein he hath reproved that treatise of Lindan, and disclosed his folly. e Diegu. Payvae d'Andrada de●ensio fidei ●ridentin. lib. 4. The last, was the chiefest of the Divines and Doctors, at the Council of Trent. The decrees whereof though he have defended, and namely that which you mention: yet not so, but he hath withal confuted them, who say, that the jews have corrupted the Hebrew text. Your cause (M. Hart) beginneth to be desperate, when it can find no covert▪ but such as your own patrons are ashamed off. Hart. I have not read th●se men's discourses. But certainly what soever they say for the rest: neither they nor you shall be ever able to prove, * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 11. c. 12. that the jews have not corrupted the Hebrew t●xt in the one and twentéeth Psalm, or f Psal. 22.17. two and twentéeth as they number it. For where it should be read (as our Latin hath it, and the Greek also) they have pierced my hands and my feet: the hebrews now do read, not Caaru, that is, they have pierced; but Caari, that is, as a Lion; as a Lion my hands and my feet. Whereby, a notable prophecy describing so plainly the manner and kind of the passion of Christ should be taken out of our hands through the treachery of the jews, if we should follow the Hebrew text as it is now. But it is so manifestly known to be corrupted: that yourselves, though allowing the Hebrew, as authentical, yet follow it not in this place, in your English Bibles. Rainoldes. This is the only argument, that g De oped. gen. interpret. script. lib. 1. cap. 6. Lindan hath of any show, to prove, that the jews have corrupted the Hebrew text. But if it be weighed with an even balance: you shall find it a mere cavil. For what will you say of your own selves? Did the Church of Rome corrupt the Latin text in the third of Genesis, Gen. 3.15. where it is read of the woman, she shall bruise thy head: for that which should be read of thewomans' seed, he shall bruise thy head? Hart. Some of your men say so. But they do great injury to the Church therein. Rainoldes. They have as great cause, at least, if not greater, to say this of romanists, as you the other of the jews. For if▪ we match the prophecies; this is more notable, 1 De oped. gen. interpret. Scrip. lib. 3 cap. 9 which is corrupted in your Latin: of the victory of Christ over Satan, and ours through him. If we compare errors; this is more manifest: in so much that it is proved to be an error even by Lindan also, not only by k Augustin. Steuchus in recognit. Genes. ad verit. Heb. Andrad. defence. sid. Trident. lib. 4. others; and the Hebrew text, with the Chaldee paraphrase, and the Greek translation, do all make against it, as l In 〈◊〉 lection. Bibl. edition. vulgat Regiorum Biblior. Tom. 6. the Divines of Lovan grant. Hart. But this might creep in by some human oversight, or negligence of scriveners: as sundry such errors have crept in to written books of all sorts, even in the best copies. The words [ipsa] and [ipse] in which the variance lieth, do not so greatly differ, but that a man might easily mistake the one for the other, Rainoldes. No more do the words 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Caaru, & 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Caari. The difference is as small. Wherefore if the one might be an oversight of scriveners in the Latin, as you say, and truly: why might not the other be likewise in the Hebrew, as it is guessed by m Defension. fidei Trident. lib. 4. Andradius. And that it was so, it is declared at large by n In praefat. ad lectorem de varia in Hebraicis libris lectione: 〈◊〉 de Masoreth ratione atque usu. Arias Montanus: who for his singular knowledge and judgement both in arts and tongues, was chosen, (as I said) to oversee the setting forth of that famous Bible in Hebrew, Chaldee, Greek, and Latin, which was printed at Antwerp, with the approbation of your * Pius the fifth in praefat. Regior. Biblior. and Gregory the thirteenth, praefat. Ar. Montan. elucid. in nou. Test. Popes and Doctors. For (in the sixth tome of that work) he showeth, that, when the jews returned into their country after their captivity of seventy years in Babylon: it befell unto them, partly by occasion of their long troubles which did distract their minds, partly by corruption of their native tongue which was grown out of kind, first into the Chaldee and afterward into the Syriake, that they neither knew nor pronounced so well the words of the scripture, written (as the manner was) without vowels. Whereby it came to pass that in the writing of them their crept in some fault, either through injury of the times, or by reason of troubles which fell upon the people, or by negligence of some scriveners. But this inconvenience was met withal afterward by most learned men: such as Esdras was, and afterward Gamaliel, joseus, Eleazar, and other of great name: who provided by common travel with great care and industry, that the text of scripture and the true reading thereof, should be preserved most sound and uncorrupt. And from these men, or from their instruction, being received and poolished by their scholars in the ages following, there came (saith he) as we judge, that most profitable treasure which is called 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 traditio, vel, traditionalis, quód tradat abunde & fideliter varias. Hebraicorum Bibliorum lectiones, quaecun— que unquam fuere. Masoreth, that is to say, a delivery, because it doth deliver abundantly and faithfully all the divers readings (that ever were) of the Hebrew Bibles, Wherein there appeareth an evident token of the providence of God, for the preservation of the sacred books of scripture whole, and sound: that the Masóreth hath been kept till our time these many hundred years with such care and diligence, that 2 Nullam vel minimam in variis exemplaribus discrepanti am admisisse doprche●sus unquam. in sundry copies of it (which have been written) no difference was ever found; and it hath been added in all the written Bibles that are in Europe, Africa, or Asia, each of them agreeing thoroughly therein with other, even as it is printed in the Venice-bibles, to the great wonder of them who read it. Now, in this Masoreth, made so long ago, so diligently written, so faithfully kept, in so many countries, through so many ages, as Arias Montanus witnesseth, the jews themselves acknowledge by their own testimony, that where in common books it is read Caari, in certain it is Caaru. Wherefore, if some jewish scriveners (who wrote out books) depraved it of malice, and spite, which might be, though they who accuse them do bring neither autour, nor time, nor any sure argument to prove it, but if some depraved it: yet, seeing their Masôreth doth note the diverse reading, and in part doth justify that which is the truer: it is hard to charge them (as you do) with corrupting of the Hebrew text. Much harder, then if we should charge your Romish church, with corrupting of the Latin, where you read [ipsa] in steed of [ipse,] not he, but she shall bruise thy head. Hart. Not so: for we have kept also that reading [ipse] even in our vulgar Latin translation. For o In Bibliis excusis Antuerp. 8. Plantino. the Divines of Lovan do note that it is found in two written copies. And we do confess it to be more agreeable both to the Hebrew text, and the Chaldee paraphrase, & the Greek translation: yea that S. jerom read it so too: as you may see in the Notations of p Notationes in sacra Biblia, quibus, va●iantia discrepantibus exemplaribus loca discutiuntur: autore Francisco Luca Brugensi, S. Theologiae Liccutiato. Franciscus Lucas, to which our latin Bibles (set forth by the Divines of Lovan) do refer you. Rainoldes. Yet Franciscus Lucas doth wrangle still about it: and saith, that all the Latin copies, which they could find do read it [ipsa;] and of the two, which you mention, he doubteth, whether one did follow the Latin or the Hebrew; and he maketh show of proof that the Hebrew may well agree to the Latin, with a little hammering of it. Yea, and that is more, as in all the Bibles, that I have seen of yours, the Latin hath ipsa, not ipse, she, not he; though q Andradius, and Lindanus, in the places afore alleged your greatest friends have wished you (forshame) to mend it: so in an Hebrew text of the famous r Tom. 8. in Hebraitis Biblijs. q●●bus Latina interpretatio inse●●a est. Bible of king Philip, (which but now I mentioned) the word [ 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he] is altered according to the latin [ 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she;] and that not of error but of purpose, as it is witnessed by s Notationibus in Gene. in cap. 3. ver. 15. Guido Fabricius excudi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●uraui t quanquam errore positum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sit Franciscus Lucas. Which is greater boldness in corrupting the Hebrew, than you can justly charge the jews with. But if it besufficient to clear both the Latin edition, & yourselves, that you have found a book, or two, wherein [ipse] is read as your Divines say: how much more justly may we clear both the Hebrew text and the jews, who, (as it is noted in their Masóreth) found sundry books with [Caaru.] Chief, sith they commend the books, as 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 well corrected, which had that reading: you commend not yours. And they 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reprove a note, which some had made rashly, to bring in the other reading in steed of that: you make such notes yourselves. And they (upon the text, where [Caari] is read) do note 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that the word hath another meaning. then where it signifieth [as a Lion:] what note you so of [ipsa?] And you these many ages have kept in your Bible's a faulty reading, without any mention of the true: they have done the contrary in theirs of ancient time. Finally, where you can find but two copies, in which the Latin edition doth read ipse, not ipsa: if yet you can find two, (for of them you doubt:) they, beside the copies extant at the time that the Masóreth was written, have had sundry amongst them even till our days, in which it is read not Caari, but Caaru. For it is avouched out of many singular good copies, by t Defence. fidei Trident. lib. 4. Andradius: & u In defence. verit. Hebr. sacrar. scripture. lib. 2. Isaac protesteth that he saw such a one himself with his grandfather: and x De arcanis catholicae verit. lib. 8. cap. 17. Petrus Galatinus saith, that even yet it is found so written in certain copies most ancient. Whereby you may see withal, how unjustly you cast us in the teeth, that our English Bibles follow not the Hebrew text in this place. For tell me, I pray. In the English translation of the new Testament (which you at Rheims did travel in) translated you never a word, that you found not in the common text of the Latin edition? Hart. Yes: y The preface of the Rhemish Testament. when by the Greek or the Fathers we saw it was a manifest fault of the writers heretofore, that mistook one word for another. Rainoldes. Yet, when you did so, you z The title of the Rhemish Testament. translated faithfully out of the authentical Latin into English. Hart What else? Because we did it according to the best corrected copies of the Latin. Rainoldes. And why say you then, that we translate not according to the Hebrew, when we translate according to the best corrected copies of the Hebrew? Specially, when we, beside the Masoreth, do follow the consent of written copies so many: where you * As namely Heb. 13.2. latacrunt. whereon the Divines of Lovan note, they found it in one written copy. In Biblijs excusis Antaer●. ●▪ Planti●●. sometime translate that which was found in one, though all the rest were against it. But thus shall they dash their foot against the stones, who will run when they are blind. Hart. Nay you are blind rather, who do call us blind. We can speak such words as easily of you, as you may of us. Rainoldes. As easily: but not as justly. For it is notorious, that, in this opinion, which you hold out of Stapleton, and he ●ut of Lindan, both they and you are blinded: what through ignorance of truth, touching the Hebrew text; what through fancy to error, in the Latin translation. Through ignorance of the Hebrew: in that you say, the jews have shamefully corrupted it. Which a Pra●fat ad lectorem de var●a in Hebra. lib lectione. Regior. Biblior. Tom. 6. Arias Montanus (no partial judge herein) 1 A n●re fo● Gregory Martin. who should have learned rather of Arias Monta●us to search and to reverence the truth of the Hebrew te●t: then to ca●●l at it, and lewdly ●tan●er it of falsehood. In his Discover. chap. 22. noteth to be their saying who know not the Masoreth. Through fancy to the Latin: in that you account of it, as authentical. And refusing the original text, under colour, that one place thereof hath in some copies a fault in one letter: you prefer a translation which hath many such throughout all copies, as b In va●. lection. b. latin. Biblior. edit v●lgat. Reg. Bibl. Tom. 6. the Divines of Lovan show; which hath (by confession of your own c De op. gen. interpt. scrip. lib. 3. cap. 4. Lindan) monstrous corruptions of all sorts; which is printed so, even among yourselves, that scarce one copy can be found, that hath one book of scripture whole & undefiled: in which there are d cap. 1. many points that are translated too intricately, and darkly, yea some improperly, some abusively, some not so fully, yea not so well and truly; and (to be short) which hath e cap. 2. sundry places thrust out from their plain and natural sense, chief in the Psalms and the 2 Which yet our countrymen at Rheme●● have 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 Latin have made a 〈◊〉 English. new Testament: as Lindan (not content to vouch it of himself) doth prove by the testimonies of the ancient Fathers, Austin, and jerom, and Hilary, and Victorinus. Are not they blind, who prefer a translation, and such a translation before the original? yea, who g Concil. Trident. Sess. 4. Si quis libros ipsos (veteris & novi Testamenti) integros cum omnibus suis partibus, prout in veteri vulgara Latina editione habentur, pro sacris & canonicis non susceperit: anathema sit. bind men to receive it as authentical, or rather as holy as sacred, as canonical, under pain of damnation. And if they think themselves not to be blind in that they do so: are they not so much the blinder (like g Io●. 9.41. the Pharises) because they say, we see. Hart. You take much pains in vain with this talk about the Hebrew▪ For I will not yield one jot from the decree of the Council of Trent. Wherefore if you can prove out of our authentical latin translation, that the Priest is not meant by the judge, in that place of Deuteronomie: I will hearken to you. Otherwise you may allege the Hebrew against the jews: for it shall never move me. Rainoldes. I am sorry, if you be so frowardly set. Yet well far h Defence. fid. Trident. lib. 4. Andradius, who thinketh that the Council of Trent did not mean either to condemn the Hebrew truth (as he calleth it,) or to acquit the latin translation from all error, when they named it authentical: but only, that the latin hath no such error, by which any pestilent opinion in faith and manners may be gathered. But if you will not be moved with the Hebrew: what say you to the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chaldee paraphrase? Or if that also have as small credit, because it expresseth the Hebrew so faithfully in the books of Moses: what say you to the Greek of the seventy interpreters? Which i Irenaeus adverse. haeres. l. 3. c. 25. Hilar. in Psal. 2. Epiphan. de mensur. & pond. Augustin. de civitat. Dei. l. 18. c. 43. Cyprian doth follow them even in this point also, ●ran●●ating it, sacerdotem autiudicem: cp. 40. & 55. & 62. & 65. & 69. the ancient Fathers who either knew not your latin at all, or had it not in such price, did marvelously esteem off. In 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. them it is as in the Hebrew, to the Priest or the judge: whereby it is apparent they thought the judge, one; and the Priest, another. Will you be moved by them: or may I allege the Greek against the Grecians too? Hart. I reverence the Greek of the seventy interpreters. But I think it might be corrupted more easily, than the latin might: yea, and that it hath been so in many places. Wherefore I appeal still unto our latin: and will not forsake it under any pretence. Rainoldes. Let us examine then (if there be no remedy) the words of your latin. * Qui superbierit nolens obedi●e sacerdotis imperio: ex decreto judicis mori●●ur homo ille. He that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandment of the Priest: by the decree of the judge shall that man die. Is there not a difference put, even by this speech, between the Priest and the judge: the Priest, as ecclesiastical; the judge as civil magistrate; Let the judge put him to death, who disobeyeth the Priest? Hart. I deny not, but the sword of justice is given to the civil magistrate: and so there is a difference between the judge & the Priest. Yet amongst the jews sometimes both the offices did meet in one person, as you may séee by k 1. Sam. 4.18. Eli. Rainoldes. But this was very rare, & extraordinary. Now the Law, which God prescribed in Deuteronomie by his servant Moses, did touch the common state and ordinary government of the people of Israel. For both it is general without limitation of persons or times, as to be kept still for the ending of their controversies, not only in the days of Eli: and it is written, that when king josaphat restored the state decayed, l 2. Chron. 1●. ver. 8. in jerusalem he set of the Levites and the Priests, and of the chief of the families of Israel, for the judgements of the Lord and for controversies. Which to have been done in respect of that law: it appeareth by the words that he spoke unto them. m ver. 10. Whatsoever controversy shall come unto you, from your brethren who dwell in their cities, between blood and blood, between law and precept, statutes and judgements: do ye admonish them that they offend not against the Lord. Wherefore seeing that the law in Deuteronomie, was made to establish a highest court of judgement, in which all harder causes ecclesiastical and civil should be determined without appeal farther: the reason and the practice of the law do show, that, in respect of the two kinds of causes, there were ordained two sorts of men to hear them, ecclesiastical, and civil; the civil meant by the judge, the ecclesiastical, by the Priest. Who because they were distinct, as in office, so in person too ordinarily: it followeth thereof, that the Priest was not meant by the judge. Hart. Yet the Gloss, expounding that place of Deuteronomie, doth say that by the judge▪ is meant the high Priest, even as I say. Rainoldes. But n Comment. in 17. Deut, Lyra, and Caietan (as worthy men, as they who compiled the Gloss, if you will hear men) do say that by the judge is meant the civil magistrate, even as I say. Which sense of the place is so plain & certain: that Carolus Sigonius, the Popes own historian (in o De repub. Hebraeor. lib. 6. cap. 7. a book which * In the year of Christ. 158●● lately he set forth at Bononia, with approbation of the Bishop, and holy Inquisition, and dedicated to Pope Gregory the thirteenth, affirmeth that the king is meant by the judge in that place of Deuteronomie. It may be, M. Hart, that sith you were beyond-sea, they have bethought themselves: and seeing that your Gloss doth go against the text, they will no longer stand unto it. Indeed, if the supremacy belong to the judge▪ the Prince hath greater right thereto then the Pope. For it is certain (as I have declared by circumstances of the scripture,) that the Priest was not meant by the judge. Hart. It skilleth not to my purpose, whether he were, or no. It sufficeth me, that he who refuseth to obey the Priest, must die, by the law. Which is enough to prove the sovereignty of one Priest. Rainoldes. Not so. For the name of Priest (in this law) doth signify the Priests. Which is clear, by reason that the punishment of the transgressor hath a relation to the law: and the law doth will men to go to p Deut. 17.9. the Priests: the Priests, it saith, as of many; not, as of one, the high Priest. Wherefore, in giving sentence of death against him, who disobeyeth the Priest; it meaneth the Priests: according to * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a kind of speech, wherein the whole is noted by the part. As afterward likewise, q Deut. 18. ver. 3. entreating of the duty and right of the Priests, it noteth them in general by name of the Priest. Hart. But here, upon mention of the Priest, it followeth: who doth serve the Lord thy God. By the which title the high Priest may seem to have been namely noted, and severed from the rest. Rainoldes. He might so, were it not that the same title is also given r ver. 5. afterward to Priests, generally: yea, where this matter is touched Deut. 21.5. again of purpose, the Lord thy God hath chosen the Priests, the sons of Levi, to serve him, and to bless in the name of the Lord; and by their word shall every controversy, and every plague be tried. Hart. Yet you will grant, (I trust,) that amongst the Priests there was one chief: yea, even in this matter of highest judgement in doubtful causes. Which, (in t 2. Chr. 1●. 11. the same place of Scripture that you brought to expound this,) is showed by king josaphat: saying unto them, to whom that judgement was committed; Amarias' the Priest shall be the chief over you in matters of the Lord. Rainoldes. This I will grant you. But you must grant me also, that look what is given to him, amongst the Priests, in matters of the Lord, that is, in ecclesiastical: the same, amongst the judges, is given to Zebadias' in matters of the king, that is in civil causes. For, josaphat doth say as well the one, as the other. So that (to come now to the later point of your lame similitude,) if Christians must have a sovereign Bishop over all, because the jews had one chief Priest▪ then Christians must have a sovereign Prince over all, because the jews had one chief judge. And as all harder causes, at least of religion must be referred to the Pope: so all of civil matters must be referred to the Emperor. And as, amongst the jews, the Priest and judge were resident in the place which the Lord had chosen: so the Pope and the Emperor must both abide in Rome. Which u Onuphrius in vit. Pont. Pauli tert. Pontifex ex quibusd●m C●sa●is verbis veritus, ne Caesar Romae diu commoratus eius occupandae illecebtis caperetur, clam Bellai●m & Stephanum Columna, ut in Italian Gallos' accirent, emisit. Pope Paul the third did fear that Emperor Charles the fifth would have done. But he sent for the French men to keep him out. If Gregory (that now is Pope) be better minded, and will resign his civil State unto the Emperor with the Palace of Vatican, and Castle of Saint Angelo: then may the reason, which you ground upon the law in Deuteronomie, serve you with greater show. Howbeit, even in that case it would rather further the Emperor than the Pope: because it mentioneth the judge, as one; the Priests, as many. Hart. It is not necessary for the government of the commonwealth among Princes, that any one of them be Prince over all. But as the king of juda was in his own kingdom: so every Prince is highest in his own dominion. Rainoldes. Neither it is necessary for the administration of the Church, amongst Bishops, that any one of them be Bishop over all. But as the high Priest was chief over the jews, so is every Bishop over his own charge. Hart. Nay, the case of the Church and commonwealth herein are unlike, and different. Because that commonweals may be upholden, although they be governed not only by diverse kings, and civil magistrates, but also by diverse ordinances and laws. But the Church as it hath one faith, in all Christians: so ought it to have the same laws and ordinances of religion in all countries. Rainoldes. This difference and unlikeness between the Church and commonwealth, is lesser than you imagine, if it be marked well. For justice, and right, in giving every one his due, should have the same place in the commonwealth, which faith and religion claimeth in the Church. Now, as in religion there are some things of substance, and some of ceremony: so there are some points essential in justice, and some accidental. The essential points of justice are the same in laws of all commonwealths. For what is * C●●. de Legib. lib. 1. ●. Name & 〈…〉 legib●s. a law, but a divine ordinance, commanding things honest, and forbidding the contrary? The accidental points do and may vary according to circumstances of places, times, and persons. So laws of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches: in ceremonies they may differ, as in x Euseb. histor. eccles. l. 5. c. 23. Socrat. histor. eccles. l. 5. c. 21. the primitive Church they did. Wherefore the same faith, and laws of religion do no more enforce all churches to obey one Bishop, than the same right and ordinances of justice do require one Prince to rule all commonwealths. But what soever your fancy make you think of this point: the place in Deuteronomie adjudging them to death who disobey the Priest, can not help your fancy, though it had been meant of no other Priest, but of the high Priest only. For Christ, when he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospel, said unto them: y Mat. 10.14. Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house, or that city, shake of the dust of your feet. Truly I say unto you, it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement, then for that city. Which words being spoken to all the Apostles, not to Peter only, and therefore belonging to all their successors, as well as to Peter's: do show that every Bishop, hath as great authority given him by Christ, as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie. In so much that z Epist. 40. & 55. & 62. & 65. & 69. Cyprian doth allege it often, (by a better reason of proportion then yours,) to prove the authority of Bishops each in several over the flocks committed to them. Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder than Bishops each in several be able to decide it? What if they disagree, and will not yield one to another? Doth not wisdom show, that there must be a chief judge to end the controversy? to keep the truth of faith, and peace of the Church, that it be not pestered with heresies and schisms? Rainoldes. The wisdom of God hath committed that chiefty of judgement (so to call it) not to the sovereign power of one, but to the common care of many. For when there was a controversy in the Church of Antioch about the observation of the law of Moses, some jews teaching contrary to that which Paul and Barnabas taught: a Act. 15.2. they ordained that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to jerusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question. And so by their common agreement and decree, the controversy was ended, the truth of faith kept, and peace maintained in the Church. After which example, b Euseb. histor. eccle. lib. 5. cap. 14. & 21. & 22. lib. 7. cap. 26. & 28. Cyprian. ●p.. 6. & 14. & 31. & 53. & 72. & 75. Concil. An●vr. Gangr. A●●ioc. Laodic. & caet▪ the Bishops (that succeeded them) made the like assemblies, on the like occasions: and by common conference took order for such matters, both of doctrine, and discipline, as concerned in common the state of their Churches. So did the Apostles and Apostolic men provide against schisms & heresies. Their wisdom reached not unto your policy of one chief judge. Hart. The profit of Counsels and Synods of Bishops is very great, we grant. For many eyes see more than one. But it will be greater, if they be all counsellors unto one governor, then if they govern each his own, and all in common. For reason doth teach us, that the regiment of one, which we call a monarchy, is better and worthier than the regiment of many: as the Philosophers show, who writ of Commonweals. Rainoldes. Reason, is a notable help of man's weakness, if it be obedient to faith, as a handmaid; not rule it, as a mistress. And human arts, wherein the Philosophers have seen many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason, are profitable instruments to set forth the truth, so far as they have peace, not war, with God's word. But if the Philosophers have erred, as c 1. Cor. 2.14. natural men, who neither do conceive the things of the spirit of God, nor can know them; if reason have her eyes (as it were) dazzled, because d joh. 1.5. the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it: then is it to be feared e 2. Cor. 11.3. least, as the Serpent seduced Eve through his subtlety, so he beguile you by reason; and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost, Col. 2.8. beware lest there be any man that spoil you through philosophy. Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church government, as of your whole doctrine: a mighty ground whereof in your Schoolmen, is philosophy; and g Campian in the fifth art. of his epist. your jesuits challenge doth offer to prove it by natural and moral reason. For here if I would justify the cause by Philosophers, it is ●asily showed, that the Church's state is a most perfit monarchy: wherein Christ is king; his laws, are the scriptures; his officers, are the Bishops; not ordained to be assistants unto one deputy, but to be deputies all themselves, even h 1. Pet. 5.2. Pastors of his flock, & i Heb. 2●. 17. guides & k 〈◊〉. 10. ●8. rulers of his Church. Howbeit, if it differ from the kingly states of worldly commonweals, which philosophy writeth off, as it doth in part: Philosophers must not marvel, sith l joh. 18.36. Christ hath declared his kingdom is not of this world. Indeed, the Apostles thought of such a kingdom: m Mat. 20.26. but Christ said, it should not be so amongst them, as with the Princes of the Gentiles. Which sentence of Christ your Popes not understanding, and weening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathenish tyranny, and liking well a monarchy because Philosophers praise it: they have raised a n Nicol. Saunder. de visib. Monar. visible monarchy of their own, in steed of Christ's monarchy; and have changed his kingdom, which is not of this world, into a worldly kingdom, the kingdom of the Romans, as o Francis. Turrian. de eccle. & ordin. minist. eccl. l. 1. c. 2. a jesuit calleth it. Neither contenting themselves with such a kingdom, as Princes of the Gentiles had: they make themselves Princes * Super gentes & regna, saith Pope john the two & twentieth in extravagant. common. over all the kingdoms and nations of the earth. Which is a greater monarchy than Philosophers like off: as I could prove out of them, if the Pope's cause were to be handled in their schools. But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about points of State; as your p Sand. visib. monar. l. 3. c. 3 Bellar. controvers. 4. quaest. 1. Rabbins do, to prove that a monarchy is the best regiment: therefore against such reasons I lay that exception which q De prescript. advers. haeret. Tertullian did of old against heretics: What hath Athens to do with jerusalem? the school of philosophy with the Church of Christ? The duty of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith, not what reason, but what religion; not what the Philosophers, but what the Prophets, & Apostles; not what man's fancy, but what the Spirit of God doth say. And so the former parts of your main argument for the Pope's supremacy, are too weak to prove it. The last is weaker than they both. For, that there should be one chief and highest Pastor of the Church in earth: it hath some reason by philosophy. That Peter was appointed by Christ to be that one: it hath some show of scripture. But that the Pope succeedeth Peter therein, it hath no show of scripture; and (I trow) you will not prove it by philosophy. Hart. That the Pope succeedeth Peter therein: The third Division. it is a clear case. For s In Chronics Eusebius writeth, that Peter, having laid the foundation of the Church of Antioch, (where he sat seven years) went to Rome: & (preaching the gospel there five and twenty years) continued Bishop of that city. Now, the Pope is Bishop of Rome: that you grant. Then I conclude thereof, that he succeedeth Peter. For Peter continued Bishop of that city, as it is witnessed by Eusebius. Rainoldes. I desired that I might hear, Thus saith the Lord: and you told me that I should hear it. In the first part of your argument, you fell from it, to, Thus saith the Pope. In the next you mended it, with, Thus say Philosophers. Now you prove the last, by, Thus saith Eusebius. And this is more sightly somewhat, than the former: but no stay of faith, without the word of God. Hart. You ought not to cast off Eusebius so lightly, as though he were of no credit. For he is the best and ancientest historian of all that have traveled in setting forth the stories of the Church of Christ. And the pains, the diligence, the reading and judgement, which in his Chronicle he showed, was great and wonderful. In so much that g Loeor. Theolog. lib. 11. cap. 6. Canus is persuaded of him, that no ecclesiastical Greek or Latin author could have left more excellent monuments of times. Rainoldes. I like of Eusebius, as of a good historian: and I allow the praise given him by Canus. But h cap. 4. Canus hath a good conclusion withal, touching both him, and all historians, to wéet, that * Praeter autotores sacros nullus histori●us certus esse potest, id est, idoneus ad faci endam certam in Theologia fidem. beside the writers of the scripture, no historian can be sure; that is to say, able to make sure and certain proof in Divinity. A thing so apparent and evident of itself, that he saith, it is not to be confirmed with his proofs. Only, he rehearseth to the same effect a true & pleasant speech of i In vit. 〈◊〉. Flavius Vopiscus: who, beginning to write stories, said that he enterprised it the more boldly, because he should have companions in lying; sith he knew no historian, that had not lied in somewhat. Now, if this be incident unto all historians, except them of scripture: who wrote by the Spirit of God, and not of man: then Eusebius also, though a good historian, might be subject to it. Which you must the rather be persuaded of him, because k Dist. 15. c. Sanc●● Romana. Pope Gelasius (in a Council of seventy Bishops) reproved his story, as faulty. Which reproof your l 〈◊〉. 11. cap 6. Canus alloweth as just, & giveth reasons of it: namely, for m Euseb. histo. eccles. l. 1. c. 14. his reporting of Christ's epistle to Agbarus, and n l. 1. c. 1. and so forth commonly. his avouching many things by Clemens Alexandrinus; whereas the fable of the one, and the works of the other are reproved by o Dist. 15. c. San●●● Romana. the Council, Hart. These faults, and the rest, that Canus doth touch, are in the history of Eusebius: which yet not only Canus but the Council also commend, as not to be refused altogether. But that which I alleged is in the Chronicle of Eusebius: a book, neither noted so by the Council, and greatly praised by Canus. Rainoldes. The man is one, who wrote them both: and might be overseen, as in the one, so in the other. Yea p Lib. 11. cap. 6. Canus himself, who praiseth his Chronicle, yet praiseth it with this exception, that neither all things which Eusebius there reporteth, are true. But men may find some things which may be worthily and truly blamed. As, for example, that he writeth, that Sennacherib who besieged jerusalem, and Salmanassar who took Samaria, were one, and the same man. Which thing to be contrary to the holy scripture q Comment. in isaiah. cap. 36. S. jerom hath showed. Now this, which I stick at in the Chronicle of Eusebius, is such an other oversight: and may be as worthily reproved, as that of Canus; because it is no less against the scripture then that. For whereas he saith, that Peter, having laid the foundation of the Church of Antioch, (where he sat * In the Chronicle of Eusebiu● it is [●iue and twenty:] through the fault of the printers or written copies which they followed. For (by the count of years, and consent of writers who seem to follow him) it should be seven only. seven years) went to Rome, & preaching the Gospel there five and twenty years continued Bishop of that city: Peter (by this account) should have gone to Antioch about the fourth year after Christ's death, and there abode seven years, even till the second year of Claudius the Emperor, in which he went to Rome. But the scripture showeth, that Paul (who was r Act. 9 ●. not presently converted after Christ's death) yet s Gal. 1.18. Act. 9 ver. ●8. after three years found Peter at jerusalem: & Peter, after that, abode within t ver. 32. the coasts of jewrie, first u ver. 38. at Lydda, then x ver. 43. at joppes, then at y Act. 10.48. Caesarea, then z Act. 11.2. at jerusalem, where a Act. 12. ver. 3. Herode cast him into prison, in the second or third year of Claudius, as it is likely, (for b ver. 23. he died c joseph Antiquitat. Iudaicar. l. 19 c. 7. where this Herode is called Agrippa. Euseb. hist. ecles. ●. 2. c. 10. in the fourth:) when, d Act. 1●. 22. the Church of Antioch was in the mean season both planted and watered by others, not by Peter. Wherefore, the former branch of that which Eusebius reporteth touching Peter, that he had sat seven years at Antioch, in the second year of Claudius, is flatly contrary to the scripture. The later is as contrary, that from that year forward he did sit at Rome five and twenty years, that is, all his life time, till he was put to death by Nero. For, (to grant the uttermost, which may have any show of reason,) admit, that he was cast by Herode into prison, in the first year of Claudius; before which he could not; for * joseph. antiquit. Iudaicar. l. 19 c. 5. Claudius gave the kingdom of jewry to Herode. When the Angel had delivered him out of prison, e Act. 12.17. he went into an other place: whether to Rome or to Antioch, or perhaps to neither, the scripture leaveth it uncertain; but, by the Chronicle of Eusebius, either to Antioch or to Rome. If he went to Antioch, and there abode some years, before he came to Rome: then is the second year of Claudius' past, and his abode at Rome could not be five and twenty years. Now, it is certain that he went to Antioch at that time or some other. For f Gal. 2.11. the scripture witnesseth that Paul did there reprove him. But if that were some other time, and from his prison in jerusalem he went strait to Rome: yet neither could he so be five and twenty years there. For after he came thither, a time must be found wherein he was at Antioch; and an other time wherein he was at g 1. Pet. 5.13. Babylon; & an other time, wherein he was at h Gal. 2.1. & Act. 15.7. jerusalem, at the Council of the Apostles; and some years after that, i Rom. 15.25. Act. 19.21. & 20.22. when Paul wrote to the Romans, k Rom. 16.3. amongst the chief, whom he saluted, he named not Peter; and some years after that, when Paul l Act. 28. ver. 17. came prisoner to Rome, when he m ver. 30. abode there certain years, when he n To the Galat. Ephes. Philip. Colos. Tim. and Philemon. wrote many epistles thence, Peter is not mentioned, nay those things are mentioned which would be stains of his Apostleship, if he had been at Rome. For, o Col. 4.11. Paul saith of others, these only are my workefellowes unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort to me:, & p 2. Tim. 4.16. at my first answering, no man assisted me, but all forsook me: I pray God it be not laid unto their charge. Of the which reasons, though some are but probable, yet some are sure proofs, that Peter's continuance at Rome was not such, as is reported by Eusebius. And this is so manifest, that, to say nothing of q Methodius▪ in Chronic. Marian. Scot Chr●. lib. 2. Regino, Chron. lib. 2. ancienter writers, who (to make the scriptures agree somewhat better with his five and twenty years abode at Rome,) brought him thither later, and gave him longer time of life: Onuphrius Panuinius, a Friar of your own, most devout to the Pope, most skilful in antiquities and stories of the Church, acknowledgeth and confirmeth it. For, in the discourses of his Annotations on r De viti● Pont. ●om. Annotat. in vitam B. Petri Apost. Platina, printed at Venice, & afterward at Coolein: 1 Apertissim● constat ex actis Apostolorum, & ●auli epistola ad Galatas. it is most clear (saith he) and surely known by the Acts of the Apostles, and Paul's epistle to the Galatians, that, for nine years after Christ's death, until the second year of the reign of Claudius, Peter never went out of jewry. Wherefore if he came to Rome, at that time, as it is agreed amongst all authors that he did: it followeth of necessity, 2 Antiochiae septem annis non sedisse ante adventum ad urbem. that he did not sit seven years at Antioch before he came thither, but that his sitting at Antioch was some other time. Which thing I have resolved on, thus, by the testimony of most ancient writers. He did come to Rome the second year of Claudius. From which time there are to the time of his death about five and twenty years. Wherein, although the ancient writers do say that he sat at Rome: yet doth it not follow thereof that he abode still in the city. For in the fourth year after his coming thither, he returned to jerusalem: and there was present at the Council of the Apostles. 3 Ind Antio●●iam prosec●us septem ibidem annis permansit. Thence he went to Antioch, and there continued seven years; until that Nero was Emperor. In the beginning of whose reign, he came again to Rome: where he repaired the Roman church, which was decaying. And after that 4 Peregrinatio●e per universam Europam fere suscepta. when he had travailed almost throughout all Europe, he returned to Rome in the last year of the reign of Nero, and there was put to death. This is the confession of your own Onuphrius, made perhaps against the hear (as I may term it:) but the light of truth and scripture forced him to it. Whereby you may perceive that when Eusebius wrote, that Peter sat, first, seven years at Antioch, and five and twenty at Rome, after: that befell to him, which Hist●r. lib. 1. Thucydides saith of the old stories of the Grecians; men receive reports of things done before them from hand to hand, one from another, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. without examining & trying them. Some, through a desire (as it is likely) of honouring the Sees of Antioch & Rome, hearing that S. Peter had preached in them both, devised that he sat seven years in the one, and five and twenty in the other. Eusebius fell upon it, and wrote it in his Chronicle without farther trial. But if he had tried it by the touchstone of scripture: he would have cast it off, as counterfeit. Which I think the rather, because in his story t Histor. ecclesiast. l. 2. c. 14. he mentioneth the coming of Peter to Rome as out of jury, not from Antioch, for his first coming thither in the time of Claudius: and for his coming thither again in Nero's time, u l. 3. c. 1 he showeth out of x Exposit. in Gene●. Tom. ● Origen that it was toward his end, when he had preached the gospel to the jews in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bythinia. Wherefore sith Eusebius doth in his story dissent from his Chronicle, and in his Chronicle dissent from the scripture: you must not blame me if I require a surer proof than his word, that Peter was Bishop of the City of Rome. Hart. To talk about the years of Peter's coming to Rome, or his continuance there, I am not disposed. I leave it to them, who list to search antiquities. But that he was in Rome, it is a thing undoubted: the scripture doth witness it. For in the first epistle of his, the fifth chapter, y 1. Pet. 5.13. the Church (saith he) saluteth you, that is in Babylon, coelect, and Mark my son. Where your Protestants show themselves (as in all places, that do make against them) to be most unhonest and partial handlers of God's word. The ancient Fathers, namely z In catalogue de scriptoribus ecclesiasticis, verbo Marcus. S. jerom, a Histor ecclesiast. lib. 2. c. 14. Eusebius, b in 1. Pet. 5.13. Oecumenius, and many more agree, that Rome is meant by the word Babylon here also, as c in the 16. & 17. chapters. in the Apocalypse: saying plainly that S. Peter wrote this epistle at Rome, which is called Babylon for the resemblance it had to Babylon that great city in Chaldaea (where the jews were captives) for magnificence, monarchy, resort and confusion of all peoples and tongues, and for that it was, before Christ and long after, the seat of all Ethnic superstition and idolatry, & the slaughterhouse of the Apostles & other Christian men, the heathy Emperors then keeping their chief residence there. This being most plain & consonant to that which followeth of S. Mark, whom all the ecclesiastical histories agree to have been Peter's scholar at Rome, & that he there wrote his gospel: yet you, * As the Rhemists say: who charge the Protestants with all this, in their Annotat. on ● Pet. 5.13. and Rom. 16.16. fearing hereby the sequel of Peter's or the Pope's supremacy at Rome, deny that ever he was there, or that this epistle was written there, or that Babylon doth here signify Rome. But you say that Peter wrote this epistle at Babylon in Chaldaea, though you never read either in scriptures, or other holy or profane history, that he was ever in that city. But see your shameless partiality. Here, Babylon (say you) is not taken for Rome: because it would follow that Peter was at Rome, and so forth. But in the Apocalypse, where all evil is spoken of Babylon, there you will have it signify nothing else but Rome, and the Roman church also, not (as the Fathers interpret it) the temporal state of the heathen Empire there. So do you follow in every word no other thing, but the advantage of your own heresy. Which is most notorious by this, that you hold that Peter was neue● at Rome. Wherein you pass yourselves in impudency. For it is against all the ecclesiastical histories, all the Father's Greek and Latin, c Comment in epist. ad Rom. cap. 16. Theodoret, d C●●mine de ingratis: in prin●i●io. Prosper, e De nat●li Petri. S. Leo, f ●om. 6. c. ●. ●ontr. epist. ●undam. S. Austin, g Lib. 7. cap. 6. Orosius, h In Psalm. 48. S. Chrysostom, i Haeres. 27. S. Epiphanius, k In hymn. ●. S. Laurent. & hymn. 12. Prudentius, l Lib. 2. contr. Donatistas'. Optatus, m Lib. 5. epist. de Basilicis tra●endi●. S. Ambrose, n In catalogo. S. jerom, o Lib. 4. cap. 21. de vera sapi●ntia. Lactantius, p Hist. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 13. & 15. Eusebius, q De ●uga su●. S. Athanasius, r Epist. 55. num. 6. S. Cyprian, s De prescript. ●um. 14. & x Martion. l. 4. ●. 4. Tertullian, t In Gene●. apud Euseb. l. 3. c. 1. Origen, u Lib. 3. cap. 3. Irenaeus, x Lib. 3. c. 2. de excidio ●ero●olym. Hegesippus, y Alleged by Eusebius l. 2. c. 14. & 24. Caius and Papias, the Apostles own scholars, and Dionysius the Bishop of Corinth, z Ep. ad Roma●os. Ignatius, a Concil. Chalcedon. act. 3. the holy council of Chalcedon, and many others. Yea Peter himself (according to the judgement of the Fathers, as I have showed) confesseth that he was at Rome, calling it Babylon. Rainoldes. Here is a grievous crime, wherewith you charge our Protestants, of shameless partiality. But whether show themselves more partial and unhonest handlers of God's word, our Protestants, or your Papists: you are too partial (M. Hart) to judge. There is a just judge who will reveal it in that day, before the eyes of all men: and in the mean season he doth reveal it daily, to them whom he maketh wise to try spirits, & to discern the truth from error. As for this particular, wherein we seem to you most unhonest and partial, that in Peter's epistle we take the word [Babylon] properly, for the city of that name in Chaldaea; and in the Revelation we say that it signifieth Rome, figuratively: we do not this for any advantage of heresy, as you falsely charge us, but in sincerity before God. For in the Revelation, in which there are as many b Hieron. in ep. ad Paulin. presb●t. mysteries as words, and words applied commonly to allegories and figures: Rome might be fitly meant by the name of Babylon. And that it was so, it apperéeth by the circumstances: if not, of c Reu. 17. ●. the seven hills, whereon Rome was built, (and d In epist. Paulae & 〈…〉 ●pist. 17. jerom gathereth it thereof;) yet of e Reu. 17.18. the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth, which in S. john's time was Rome; f ●ertullian. adver. Iu●aeos & adue●●. Martion. lib 3 Hieron. ad Algasiam quaest. 11. & praefat. in lib. 〈…〉 the Fathers so interpret it; you say it, and subscribe unto it. But, in all the rest of the new Testament, where things are plainly spoken off, it si●teth most with reason that the word Babylon be taken in his proper meaning: the text doth force it in g Mat. ●. 11. Act. 7. ●3. other places; and, in that epistle of Peter it is the likelier, because h 1. Cor. 1.2. Reu. 14. & 2. 1● & 3.7. 1. Cor. 16. ●● Col. 4.16. the like speeches in superscriptions, in salutations, in dates of epistles, are elsewhere meant simply. In the Revelation, i Re●. 11.8. the great city is called spiritually Sodom. In k 2. Pe●. ●. ● Peter's epistle, we take the name of Sodom properly. Is it partiality in us, to take it so? Or were it not a folly in you to reprove it? But this is the matter belike, which pincheth you, that in the Revelation, where all evil is spoken of Babylon, we will have it signify nothing else but Rome, and the Roman Church also, not the temporal state of the heathen Empire there, as the Fathers interpret it. The Fathers then interpret it of Rome, you confess. If you condemn us for interpreting it so: you must condemn them with us. If you say that we do not therein, as they, because we expound it of nothing else but Rome, and they not so: you slander us. For l Babylonis nomine, Satanae congregation● significat: sed eam potissimu● quae ab ecclesia Romana pend●● In exposit ecclesiast. Nou. Test. excerpt 〈◊〉 probat. Theologis ab A●gustino Marlora●●. some of us expound it of the city of the Devil, that is, the society and company of all the wicked, as some of them do. And what doth it advantage you, or your quarrel, if, as by m Reu. 21.10. jerusalem is meant the city of God, that is, the society and company of all the faithful: so Rome, an other Babylon, do note the devils city, as a figure and sampler of it? For, in this sort also will Babylon be Rome stil. Wherein, that you may learn the less to carp at us, harken to n Robert Bellarmin. Contr. 4. quaest. 6. your jesuit: who having showed, that the whore which sitteth on the seven hills, is (in * Augustin. Aret. Haim. 〈◊〉 Rupert. some men's judgement) the city of the Devil, which often times is called Babylon, and set against jerusalem, the city of God, that is, the Church: but in my judgement (saith he) it is better to understand the city of Rome by the whore, as o Adverse. judaeos: & Martion lib 3. Tertullian and p Ad Alga●. quaest. 11. jerom do. To whom he might have added q 〈◊〉 Apocalypsin cap. 1●. sundry of the Grecians: and r De civitate De● lib. 18. c. ●. S. Austin also. But they interpret it (you say) of the temporal state, not ecclesiastical; of the Roman Empire, not of the Roman Church, as we do. No marvel. For in their ●aies the Church did differ from the Empire: the Empire, wicked; Church, godly. In ours it is not so. The state ecclesiastical is changed into the temporal: the Church hath swallowed up the Empire; and what the Roman Empire was, that now the Roman Popedo e is. Wherefore when we apply the mystery of Babylon to the Church of Rome: we apply it still (as the Fathers did) to the temporal state, if not of an heathen Empire there, yet of a Christian waxing heathenish. There we see s ●euel. 17.4. a purple whore, sitting upon many waters, drunken with the blood of saints, and with the blood of Christ's martyrs, having a golden cup in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her whoredom. t De visib. Mo●a●. lib. 8. cap. 8. Sanders, the greatest patron of the Pope's monarchy, doth prove out of Tertullian, that where there is the greatness of the kingly city, where the pride of the Empire, where the persecution of Christians doth rage: there is Babylon, no doubt, there is the great city, there is that woman which sitteth upon peoples, nations, and languages, with whom the kings of the earth do commit whooredom, and the inhabitants of the earth are drunken with the wine of her whoredom. Now Rome in these respects was Babylon (as he construeth it) while the heathen Emperors obtained the temporal state there, not since the Popes have had it. But let the states of the Popedom and of the Empire be compared; and the stories of u In Su●ton. Capitolin. 1. amprid. etc. histor. Ethnicor. the Emperors, who reigned there before the Popes, and of x In Platina. Onuph. Guicciardin. & histor. eccles. Ang. Gal. ●erman. etc. the Popes (who have succeeded them) be examined: and if it be not found that the Papal state hath matched the Imperial in greatness of power, in pride of dominion, in persecuting of Christians; then let us be judged to vary from the Fathers in giving Rome the name of Babylon. Else are we cleared by verdict of Sanders from that wherewith you charge us, of expounding it to the advantage of our heresy: and you must pronounce that we deal uprightly with the name of Babylon, in the Revelation. As for our usage of it in the epistle of Peter: the reasons which you bring to prove a fault therein, may serve for our acquittal. You say, that we never read either in scriptures, or other holy, or profane history, that Peter was ever in the city of Chaldaea, which is named Babylon. A simple proof, if we had not. For, the Apostles, being sent to y ●at. ●8. 19. all nations, were in many cities, wherein we never read they were. And yet we have read in Methodius (an ancient bishop, and historian) alleged by z Ch●on. lib. 2 Marianus Scotus, that Peter did preach the gospel in 1 Babylon●a▪ taken ●y others, for the country: by sundry w●iters ec●lesias●●call, ●or the c●tie of Babylon. Hist. eccle. Euseb.. Rufin. interpret. l. ●. cap. 1●. August. in Psal. 26. & 61. de ●iuitat. De● l. 18. cap. 2. joseph. antiquit. judaic. l. 20. c. 18 Prosper in dimid. Temp. cap. 7. & lib. senten. ex August. se●t. 221. Oth. Frising. chr●n lib. 7. cap. 3. Babylon: that is, either the city, or at least the country; and where they preached in the country, they did it in the chief and mother-city commonly. But the ancient Fathers, namely S. jerom, Eusebius, Oecumenius, & many more agree, that Peter meant Rome by the word Babylon. They deliver it, I grant: but they received it from Papias, a man, though you commend him for the Apostles own scholar, yet a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Euseb. l. 3. c. 36. of very small judgement: who, mistaking the meaning of the Apostles spèeches in 2 The fancy of the Millenaries, or Chiliasts as they were called. a matter of greater weight, deceived many Fathers that followed him for his antiquity, as both b Histor. ecclesiast. l. 3. cap. 36. Eusebius and c De scriptor. ecclesiast. in verbo Papias. jerom do report of him. The less strange it is, if they believed him, and others them, in this point, of no such importance. But, it is consonant to that which followeth of Mark: whom all the ecclesiastical histories agree to have been Peter's scholar at Rome, and that he there wrote his gospel. And d Euseb. histor. ecclesiast. lib. 2. cap. 15. Hieron. de scriptor. eccles. verbo Marcus. this doth come from Papias also, by one as good as himself, even by Clemens Alexandrinus. Wherefore, I know, what credit it hath; what truth, I know not. For if e In Chronic. Cassiodorus, f Chronic. l. 2. Rhegino, g Ado Vienn. breu. Chr. aet. 6. Ado, and h Beda in Martyrolog. Maria●● Scot Chron. lib. 2. Martin. Polon. s●ppu●● P●nt. Roman. Platina de vit. Pont. and the rest. all the ecclesiastical histories have erred, in saying that Peter did abide at Rome five and twenty years; which error they were carried into by i In Chron. Eusebius, or whosoever first reported it: why might they not also be deceived in this point by the report of Papias, or some who had it from Papias? Though, if it be true, that S. Mark was Peter's scholar at Rome: yet this proveth not, that he meant Rome by the name of Babylon. For Peter saith only, the Church which is in Babylon, & Mark my son salute you. Now Mark (as k Euseb. hist. ecclesiast. l. 3. c. 36. your Papias also doth report) did follow and accompany Peter in his travel. So that he might be with him as well at Babylon in Chaldaea, as in Italy at Rome. Wherefore whether Peter were at Rome or no: the proof thereof resteth upon human histories. For this of God's word, whereby you would prove it feign, saith nothing for it. Which l Vi●●cus Velenus, in opusculo inscripto, Petrum non venisse Romam, ne ●ue illig passum. a learned man of our side having weighed, and seeing m persuas▪ ●. the dissension of writers touching the time that he came to Rome; and knowing by n pe●s. 3.4.10.12. & 13. the scripture that their speech of his abode in Rome, is false; and marking the shameful practice of the Romanists in o pers. 18. forging tales for their advancement, as Constantine's donation; and spying some such forgery amongst their monuments of Peter, p pe●s. 16. as Linus fable of his death; and finding q pe●s. 17. his martyrdom mentioned by r Comme●tar. ●n Matthae. c. 23 jerom and Lyra, in such sort, as though he had been crucified by the Scribes and Pharises: he was brought (by these & the like persuasions) into this opinion, that Peter never came to Rome. If you ask my judgement: I think he was deceived therein. And so do many more. None of all the Protestants, s carrion & Melanch●hon in Chron. lib. 3. Pantaleon in Chronographia. Vadian. epitome trium terrae partium, in Italia. M. Fox in his ecclesiastical history. who have dealt in writing of histories & Chronicles, to my knowledge, ( t Balaeus in Act. Rom. pont. lib. 1. in praefat. one excepted) denieth, that he was at Rome. They who are straightest in it, do say u Funccius comment▪ in Chronolog. lib. 5. it may be doubted, it is no article of our faith: and x Histor. eccles. Magdeburg. Centur. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. either he was not there, or at another time than most authors think, and less than five and twenty years. Wherein, what do they say, but that which is most true and manifest? The greater wrong you do us, to charge us in general, that we hold that Peter was never at Rome. And, to aggravate the matter you muster up the names of the ancient Fathers, as though we did band ourselves against them all. Whereas in very deed, y Calvin. institut. lib. 4. cap. 6. ●ect. 15. Petrus Martyr in lib. 1. Regum. c. 12. they, whom you count our captains, do therefore grant Peter to have been at Rome, because the ancient Fathers affirm it so with one consent. Yea z Luther. in. 1. Pet. cap. 5. Bullinger. in Apocalypsin cap. 14. contion. 64. some of them (expounding those same words of Peter) apply the name of Babylon to Rome, as you do: some, who allow not of that exposition, yet grant he was at Rome. And so the reproach of shameless partiality which you cast on us, redoundeth on yourselves. For if you had any modesty and equity, you would never say, that we deny Rome to be meant by Babylon, because it would follow that Peter was at Rome, and so forth. Specially, sith neither all of us deny it: and many who deny it, yet deny not but Peter was at Rome. But whereas you add, that we deny it, fearing hereby the sequel of Peter's or the Pope's supremacy at Rome: a Theodor. Bez. & Erasmus annot. in nou. Test. 1. Pet. 5. therein you pass yourselves in impudency. For we do confess, (and you too) I trust, that b Act. 9.43. Peter was at joppes. And do we (or rather you) fear hereby the sequel of Peter's or the Pope's supremacy at joppes. Hart. No: because we read not that he was Bishop of joppes. We read that he was Bishop of Rome. Rainoldes. But you can not prove it by those words of Peter, which you would ground it on: although it were granted that he meant Rome by Babylon. For the most that might be proved so thereby, is, that he was at Rome. Which furthereth no more the Pope of Rome then of joppes. And thus you may see, what tragedies you make for how small trifles: when you lay so heinous a crime to our charge for denying that, which although we grant, we neither win, nor lose by it. Hart. But if he were at Rome, it will be the likelier that he was Bishop there. And that he was so, Eusebius showeth in his Chronicle. Rainoldes. I perceive the Pope must fetch his supremacy from earth and not from heaven. You are fallen again, from scripture, to Eusebius. Against whose authority I might take exception, because he saith that Peter continued bishop of Rome, preaching the gospel there, five and twenty years: which I have proved to be untrue. Though, (if I may speak mine own conjecture of it,) the difference of the Chronicle and history of Eusebius concerning that point, doth move me to think, that it was not written by Eusebius, but by jerom. For c Hieron. praefat. in Eusebij Chron. he, in translating the Chronicle of Eusebius, did interlace some things which seemed to be omitted: * In Romana maximé historia. chiefly, in the Roman story. Now jerom might receive it from d In pontificali. Damasus bishop of Rome: on whom e Hieron. epist. 11. ad Ager. & l. 2. contra Rufinum. he attended as a secretary. And Damasus was not so void of all affection, but f Theodoret. histor. ecclesiast. l. 5. c. 9 Sozom. l, 6. c. 23. Ammia●. Mar●ellin. l. 27. he could be content to advance the credit of his own See by helping it to be reputed the bishoply See of Peter. But whether Eusebius, or jerom, or Damasus, or whosoever have said that Peter was a Bishop: either they used the name of [Bishop] generally, and so it proveth not your purpose; or if they meant it, as commonly we do, they miss the truth. For generally, 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence the Latin (Episcopus) & our English word (Bishop) are derived. a Bishop, is an overseer. In which signification it reacheth to all, who are put in trust with oversight & charge of any thing: as g In the Greek translation o● the seventy interpreters, Numb 4.16. Eleazar is called Bishop of the tabernacle; & Christ, h 1. Pet. 2. ●5. the Bishop of our souls. But, in our common use of speech it noteth him, to whom the oversight & charge of a particular Church is committed: such as were the Bishops of i Act 20.28. Ephesus, of k Philip. 1.1 Philippi; and they whom Christ calleth l Revel. ●. 20. the Angels of the Churches. Now Peter was not Bishop after this later sort: for he was an Apostle, and 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, so called, as chosen to be sent ●●road to preach to e●ery creature. Mark. 3.14. & 16.15. the Apostles were sent to preach to all the world. Wherefore when the Fathers said, he was a Bishop: either they meant it in the former sense, or aught to have meant it. This is somewhat harder to be perceived by jerom: but others open it more plainly. For m Hieronym. de scriptor. eccle verbo, Clemens. he reckoneth Peter the first Bishop of Rome; Linus, the second; Cletus, the third; Clemens, the fourth, and so the rest successively: as likewise, n verbo, Ignatius. in Antioch, Ignatius, the third; whereby Euodius is the second; o verbo, Simon Pet. and Peter, the first. But p In chronic. & histor. l. 3. c. 19 Eusebius nameth Euodius, the first Bishop of Antioch; Ignatius, the second: and q Adverse. haere. l. 3. cap. 3. Irenaeus nameth Linus, the first Bishop of Rome; * Who is called Anacletus, by Irenaeus and Eusebius. Cletus the second; and so forth. Whereby they declare, that (in their judgement) although Peter preached at Antioch and Rome both, yet he was neither Bishop of Antioch, nor Rome, as usually that name is taken. Yea they distinguish the Bishops, and the Apostles therein purposely. For r Adverse. h●r. lib. 3. cap. 3. Irenaeus saith, that the two 1 Apostoli. Apostles, namely Peter and Paul, when they had founded and taught the Roman Church, committed 2 Episcopatum. the Bishoply charge thereof to Linus. And he repeateth often in reckoning up the Bishops, (as doth s Histor. eccles, l. 3. c. 2. & 19 l. 4. c. 1. & 5. l. 5. c. 1. etc. Eusebius also) that they were such, and such, in order, and number, from the Apostles. And t Praefat. Recognitionum Clementis ad Gaudentium. Rufinus writeth, that Linus and Cletus were Bishop's while Peter lived: that they might have 1 Episcopatus curam. the care of the Bishoply charge, and he might do 2 Apostolatus officium. the duty of the Apostleship. Which is confirmed farther by u Haeres. 27. Epiphanius. Who, though he say that Peter and Paul were both Apostles & Bishops in Rome: yet he saith withal that there were other Bishops of Rome, while they lived; because that 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the Apostles, went often into other countries to preach Christ; & the city of Rome might not be without 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. a Bishop. As if he should have said, that a Bishop's duty doth bind him to attend the Church, whereof the holy Ghost hath made him overseer. Now, though the Apostles Peter and Paul did perform that duty to the Church of Rome, while they abode there: yet because it was the charge of their Apostleship to preach to others also, therefore they went thence to other coasts and nations, and left the Roman charge to the Bishop of Rome. And so you may learn by the Father's themselves, that when they termed any Apostle a Bishop of this or that city, as namely, S. Peter of Antioch, or Rome: they meant it in a general sort, and signification, because he did attend that Church for a time, and supplied that room in preaching of the Gospel, which Bishops did after. But as the name of [Bishop] is commonly taken for the overseer of a particular church, and pastor of a several flock: so Peter was not Bishop of any one city, and therefore not of Rome. Hart. Yet the Bishops of Rome did succeed Peter: even by the testimony of the same authors namely of Irenaeus, Eusebius, The fourth Division. and Epiphanius, in the places by you alleged. Rainoldes. They did succeed Peter, as Bishops an Apostle: and they did succeed him in Rome, as other Bishops did in other cities. Wherefore if the Bishop of Rome by this succession have right to the supremacy: what hath the Bishop of Antioch? For he succeeded Peter too. Hart. The Bishop of Antioch did succeed Peter, while Peter lived yet, and had not left his right. But the Bishop of Rome succeeded him, when he died: and thereby was advanced unto that supremacy, which Peter kept while he lived. Rainoldes. Your men were wont to answer, x As Pope Marcellus saith c. Rogamus. 24. q. 1. Turre oremata Summ. de eccles. l. 2. c. 36. Canus Locor. Theologi●or. l. 6. c. 8. that Antioch had first right to the supremacy by the chair of Peter: but Peter did remove his chair thence to Rome. This was somewhat stolen. Which your Father y Rober●. Bellarm. Controver 4. quaest. 5. Robert smelled belike, & so he thought it better to say that Peter kept his right, while he lived: but, when he died, the Bishop of Rome was his successor, and had it (as I trow) by legacy. A pretty shift if it would stand: but it lacketh life. For Linus Bishop of Rome, who succeeded Peter, succeeded Peter living: in the same manner as did the Bishop of Antioch. Hart. Not so. But Clemens rather did succeed Peter: and that, after his death. For, when he perceived his end to draw near, he took Clemens by the hand: and said, in the hearing of the whole Church, (which was then assembled,) Harken unto me, my brethren and fellow-servants. Because (as my Lord & master jesus Christ, who sent me, hath told me,) the day of my death approacheth: I ordain this Clemens to be your Bishop, unto whom alone I commit the chair of my preaching and doctrine; and I give to him that power of binding and losing which Christ gave to me, that whatsoever he decreeth of any thing in earth, the same shall be decreed in heaven. Rainoldes. Who told you this tale? Hart. A tale? It is recorded in an old monument. Rainoldes. Whence came that old monument? Hart. From Clemens himself: who lived in the time of the Apostles; and is mentioned by z Phil. 4.3. S. Paul. Rainoldes. But where doth he record it? Hart. In his first epistle, written to james the brother of the Lord. Rainoldes. In deed an old monument. It is so old, that it is rotten. A very drunken forgery: wherein it is said, that Peter prayed Clemens to write (after his death) this epistle to james the brother of the Lord, to comfort him: and Clemens did so. Whereas a joseph. antiquit. Iudaicar. l. 20. c. 16. Euseb. histor. eccles. l. 2. c. 23. james was dead long before Peter, about an eight years at least. Hart. This is one of the arguments that are brought against it by your Centuries of Meydenburg: which I make no account off, b Histor. ecclesiast. Magd. Cent. 2. cap. 7. though you allege them all. For c Francis. Turrian. pro epistolis Pontificum l. 2. c. 13. Turrian hath sifted & confuted them, in his defence of the decretal epistles of the Popes: where he bringeth reasons why Clemens might write well to james being dead, and Peter with him so to do. Rainoldes. Turrian; a jesuit: a cover fit for such a cup. Whose defence of those bastards fathered on the ancient Bishops of Rome falsely, may be justly censured with that which d De causis corruptarum art. lib. 2. vives saith of your golden legend: it is written by a man of a brazen face & a leaden hart. For nothing can be spoken so fond & absurdly, which he hath not some reason for: as though he had resolved to be ma● with reason. Howbeit, sith you are forestalled with a prejudice of his defence against the Centuries: I will not touch the arguments whereupon they stand. Though his answers to them, if they should be laid in the scales together, would be found lighter than vanity itself, in all indifferent reader's eyes. His dealing in this one point may give a taste thereof. For though to write letters to a dead man be a thing so senseless, that the epistle therefore is nipped, as unlikely, by e De sum. eccles. l. 2. cap. 101. Cardinal Turrecremata; and cast off, as counterfeit, by f De concordant. catholica l. 2. c. 17 & l. 3. c. 2. Cardinal Cusanus: yet Turrian defendeth it as wisely done, and omitteth nothing to show with how good reason Clemens might write letters to james being dead, yea though he knew him to be dead; save that, (as g Antonius' Sade●l in respons. ad repetita Turriani sophismata. part. 1. a learned man told him pleasantly) he showeth not by what carrier Clemens did send the letters to him. But, to let both Turrian and the Centuries go: the drift of the epistle being to prove that Peter ordained Clemens his successor, disc●editeth, itself (as h De concord. catholica l. 3. cap. 2. Cusanus hath also noted) by the judgement of the Fathers, S. i Epist. 165. Austin, S. k De scriptor. eccle. in verbo Clemens. jerom, l De schism. Dona●ist. lib. 2. Optatus, and m Irenaeus lib. 3. c. 3. Eusebius in Chron. & histor. eccl. l. 3. c. 2. Epiphanius haeres. 27. Dorotheus in Synopsi. Beda in Martyrologio. the rest, yea by n ●latina, Onuph●ius Pon●acus Genebrardus, and the ancienter whom they follow. your own Chronicles and histories ecclesiastical, who all agree that Linus was Peter's successor, and so they mar the tale of Clemens. Hart. You do ill to call it a tale, and drunken forgery: such reproachful terms. Rainoldes. You must bear with my plainness, I call a ●●gge, a fig; and a spade, a spade. Hart. Nay, it is neither a forgery, nor a tale. For, the epistle is ancient, translated out of Greek into Latin by Rufinus, who lived within four hundred years after Christ. And this touching Linus, the story of whose succession (you think) dispro●eth it, was thought upon then, & is answered by o Praefat. Recognit. Clement. ad Gaudent. Rufinus. For 〈◊〉 his preface to the book entitled the recognitions of Clemens, which he translated too, some demand (saith he) how, when as Linus and Cletus were Bishops of Rome before Clemens, himself (in his epistle to james) saith that the chair of teaching was committed to him by Peter. Whereof this is the reason, as we have heard, that Linus and Cletus were in deed Bishops in Rome before Clemens, but while Peter lived: that they might have the care of the Bishoply charge, & he might do the duty of the Apostleship. As it is found that also he did at Caesarea: where, though being present himself, yet he had a Bishop whom he had ordained, namely Zachaeus. And thus may each of these things be thought to be true: both that they were reckoned Bishops, before Clemens; and Clemens nevertheless received the chair of teaching after the death of Peter. Rainoldes. The ancienty of the epistle is no warrant for it, but that it might be false and forged. p Lin●s de passion. Pet. & Paul. lib. 2. Hi●●ron. de script. eccles. verbo Seneca. The epistles of Seneca to Paul, of Paul to Seneca, are no less ancient: which yet have nothing worthy of either Paul, or Seneca. There have been very many misbegotten pamphlets wandering abroad, q Hieron. de scriptor. eccles verbo Paulus. & Lucas, & Clemens. c. santa Romana. distinct. 15. even from the time of the Apostles; yea, under the names of the Apostles themselves. The less have you to marvel, if there were some miscreant who wrote in the name of Clemens to james. As for Rufinus, who translated it, (if yet he did translate it, and some have not abused 1 Clementis recognitionis posterio●●● opus Rusini praefatione, aut confieta, aut aliunde petita tra●s●orma●um. Sixt. Senens. Biblioth. sanct. lib. 2. him as well as Clemens:) his judgement was not such, but he might be deceived in a greater matter. Which, if you believe not on S. r Apologia contra Rufinum. jeroms credit, because he was his adversary: look into these same works that he translated, and you shall perceive it. For, the things written in the Recognitions of Clemens (which you mention) sent to james also, are, the most of them, uncertain; many, fabulous; yea and some, heretical, as s Sixt. Senensis Biblioth. sanct. lib. 2. yourselves confess. Yet t Praefat. recognit. Clement. ad Gaudent. Rufinus judged it a hidden treasure of wisdom, & thought he had a booty of it. Again, in u Clement. epist. 1. ad Iaco●um fratrem Domini. that epistle, wherein Clemens maketh himself Peter's successor, he certifieth james, that he sent him before (by the commandment of Peter) an other book, entitled, 2 Itinerarium Clementis. the book of Clemens touching things which Peter did in his journey. Now, this iourney-booke hath been so long, so famously known, for a rogue: that he hath not only been burnt through the ●are of old by x Athanasius in Synopsi. Gelasi●s in concili● 70. episcoporum. dist. 15. c. sacta Romana. sundry Fathers and Bishops in a Council; but also of late y Sixtus Sen. Bibliothecae sanct. lib. 2. the college of Inquisitors at Rome have enroled him in the Register of books condemned by the Church. Wherefore he was a counterfeit, that set abroad these bastards in the name of Clemens: howsoever Rufinus thought them (of simplicity,) to be his own, whose they were named. And with this persuasion was he moved to think on some probability how that might be true, which seemed false therein: of Peter's ordaining Clemens to be his successor, when Linus and Cletus were Bishops before him. The only show whereof being * Cuius rei hanc accepimus esse rationem. Praefat. recognit. Clement. ad Gaudent. a report, received by tradition: he was feign to take it, for lack of a better. But he erred in it: either not knowing, or not considering times and stories. For, by his answer, Linus and Cletus should be no longer Bishops than while Peter lived: and, when he died, Clemens should succeed him next immediately. Whereas it is apparent by z Eusebius in Chronico. records of times, that Linus continued Bishop eleven years, after Peter's death: and Cletus twelve, after Linus; before that Clemens had the room. Which albeit a Pro decretalib. epist. Pont. lib. 3. cap. 10. Turrian the jesuite do● gnaw upon (as he is wont,) to make it away: yet is the matter so manifest & certain, that b Chronogr. lib. 3. in Lino. Genebrard, the freshest of your Popish Chroniclers, and passing all the rest as in skill, so in zeal for the Pope's causes, could not but set it down as true. Hart. Yet he saith withal, that Peter did nominate Clemens to succeed him. But Clemens gave the room first to Linus, and then to Cletus, not so much of modesty, as by the counsel of the Lord, 1 Ne huius nominationi● exemplum transiret ad posteros▪ & liberae ecclesiae prouidenti● in deligendo sibi praesule decerperet. lest the example of this nomination should pass to the posterity, and derogate from the free providence of the Church in choosing of her own Bishop. Rainoldes. He saith so in deed. But who seeth not that this was devised to make stories agree with the tale of Clemens: and (by the way) to countenance the election of Popes, which now the Cardinal's use? For, c Sacrar. cer●mon. Rom. eccles. l. 1. sect. 1. the book of Ceremonies of the Church of Rome, treating of that election, affirmeth that Peter nominated Clemens to be his successor, with this condition (it is thought,) if the Cardinals would admit him. But they, 2 Huiusmodi denominationis formam graviter in futurum ecclesiae posse nocere. perceiving that the form of this nomination might greatly hurt the Church in process of time, did not accept of Clemens, but did choose Linus, and made him Pope after Peter. Howbeit Clemens afterward was chosen by the Cardinals, when Linus and Cletus were deceased. Though Genebrard in ●●●ming the fancy to his purpose, doth not so much follow the book of the Ceremonies as the gloze of the d c. Si Petrus ●. q. 1. in glossa. Canon law: which (with better care of the Pope's credit) saith, that Pope Clemens himself 3 Renunciavit Papatui, videns quód esset perniciosum exemplo quod aliquis sibi eligeret successorem. renounced the Papacy, considering that it would be an evil and pernicious thing for the example, that any should choose his own successor. Into such follies do you 〈◊〉 yourselves, to say that the blessed Apostle of Christ, S. Peter, did ordain that, which was pernicious for the example, refused by the Pope, misliked by the Cardinals, prejudicial to the Church: and all to maintain the epistle of Clemens, with the tale in it, that Peter made him his successor. A thing so absurd, that where it is mentioned in e c. vn●e. 8. q. 1. the Canon law, there is it n●●ed to ●e 4 Palea. chaff: and f In annotat. ad c. unde 8. q. 1. Contius, a learned lawyer of your own, doth note upon that note, that it is counted chaff worthily, 5 Nam tota est commentitia. for it is all counterfeit: and g Petr. Comest. histor. scholast. in Act. Apol●. cap. 101. Comestor, the author of the scholastical history, who lived when the darkness of Popery was grossest, refuteth and rejecteth it as a mere forgery. But whatsoever it ●e, and ho● so ever ancient, 〈◊〉 the same (it may be) which S. h De scriptorib. eccles. verbo C●emens. jerom saith, did bear the name of Clemens, and was reproved by old writers, but be it, what you will: you confess yourself that to be untrue, for proof whereof you cited it, that Clemens succeeded Peter, and not Linus. Wherefore, seeing Linus did succeed Peter, & that while Peter lived, in the same sort as Zachaeus did (you say) at Caesarea, & Euodius at Antioch: the Bishops of Antioch, & of Caesarea, may claim as well the Papacy by Peter's succession, as may the Bishop of Rome. Hart. Yet by your own grant and the consent of histories, Linus who succeeded him in Rome, did outlive him. And therefore he was the successor of Peter, not only while Peter was alive yet, but when he was deceased also. Rainoldes. He was so. What of that? Hart. Of that I conclude the Bishop of Rome's supremacy, and convince you of error. For Peter had charge of all the Church of Christ. But the Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter. The Bishop of Rome therefore hath charge of all the Church of Christ. Rainoldes. As if you should say: i ●. King. 11. vers. 42. Solomon did reign over all Israel. But k vers. 43. Roboam, salomon's son, was his successor. Roboam therefore reigned over all Israel. Whereby you might convince the scripture of error, for saying that l ●. King. 12. vers. 20. jeroboam was king over all Israel, and none did follow Roboam, but the tribe of juda only. Hart. They revolted from Roboam. But he had right to be their king, as being heir of Solomon. Rainoldes. But what is that to my reason? For points in a similitude are bound to hold no farther, then that, wherein they are resembled. Else you might add too, that the Pope is liker to jeroboam then to Roboam, because of his m vers. 28. golden gods: and therefore should be king rather of all Christendom, then of the province of Rome only. But if your cavil please you against that reason: hear an other. The Apostles of Christ had charge of all nations. All Bishops are successors of the Apostles. Therefore all Bishops have charge of all nations. Will you reply now that men revolt from Bishops: but they have right to be Popes, as being heirs of the Apostles? Hart. No: For though all Bishops succeed the Apostles, as S. n Epist. ad Euagr jerom saith well, & it is true: yet they succeed them not in their whole right. They succeed them in the kind of charge, o Marc. 16.15. to preach the Gospel: but not in the ampleness, to preach it unto every creature. They succeed the Apostles, but not in the Apostleship. For of the Apostleship there is no succession, as D. p Princip. doctrinal. l. 6. c. 7. Stapleton showeth. Rainoldes. Then D. Stapleton showeth, that the Bishop of Rome doth not succeed Peter in the Apostleship neither. Hart. And what if he do not? Rainoldes. Then he succeedeth not to all the right of Peter. Then how is the supremacy proved by this succession? Then the Pope usurpeth, who will be the Apostles successor in the Apostleship. For he calleth his office q In praefatione Clementinarum. the office of the Apostleship; and things which he doth hear, r c. a● Apostolatus. extrauag. joh. 22. the concession. praebend. de priuil. his Apostleship doth hear them; and in his prohibitions, he willeth weighty matters s c. Porro. Dist. 63. to be referred to his Apostleship; and in his usual style, the style of the Court of Rome, his c. ad audientiam. i. de rescriptis. letters, his u c. Nulli. Dist. 19 decrees, his x Sacrar. cer●moniar. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. sect. 8. mandates and precepts are called Apostolic, and all Apostolic, that toucheth him; the Apostolic y sect. 6. Bull, the Apostolic z sect. 14. seal, the Apostolic a sect. 5. messenger, Apostolic b sect. 1. palace, c sect. 8. chamber, d Reg. Cancellariae Apost. chancery, Apostolic e Sacr. cerem. Rom. eccles. l. 1. sect. 5. Legate, Apostolic f c. In his. de privilege. & excessibus privilegiat. pardon, Apostolic g c. Ideo. 25. q. 1. authority, Apostolic h Albert. Krantz. Saxon. l. 5. c. 8. dispensation; and what not? Wherein we have an other of your spiritual coosinages, as kindly as * Chapt. 1. Divis. 2. the former, wherein you clad the Pope with the name of Peter. Nay, this doth pass that. For, in that, he cometh forth with the spoils of Peter, one Apostle: in this, of more than one. For Bishops, in their i c. ego N. extra. de jure iurando. oath of fealty to the Pope, are sworn 1 Limina Apostolorum visitabo. to visit yearly the Court of the Apostles, that is, of the Pope; 2 Nisi eorum absoluar licentia. unless they be dispensed withal by the Apostles, that is, by the Pope. Hart. You need not think this kind of speeches so disorderly. For S. Bernard useth them, or the like unto them. Yea, k De consid. ad Eugen lib. 1. the very title of the Apostleship is given to the Pope by him. Rainoldes. S. Bernard was a worthy man, in * About the year. 1140. that corrupt age, in which he lived. But yourselves have a proverb, that l Bernardus no● vidit omnia. Bernard saw not all things. Yet he saw many more, than you can well brook: and m Bernard. de consid. ad Eugen. lib. 4. some wherein the Pope succeed Constantine, not Peter; n lib. 1.2. & 3. some wherein he succeedeth neither. That he saw the filth of the Papacy but in part: it may be imputed never had himself you● Popes supremacy, the right of the heavenly and of the earthly kingdom, the princehood both in temporal and spiritual things. Such power neither the scriptures nor Fathers give to Peter. But what are the scriptures which the Fathers allege? Hart. How far the supremacy of Peter did reach in earthly things and heavenly, spiritual and temporal: I will not reason now. But * Staplet. principior. doctrine. lib. 6. cap. 15. the ancient Fathers allege the same scriptures to prove that his supremacy came to his successors in the Church of Rome, which I alleged before to prove his right to the supremacy. For, that the promise in the sixteenth of Matthew, upon this rock I will build my Church, and so forth, is verified in the See of Rome, S. b In Psalm. cont●a partem Donati. Augustin teacheth: Number (saith he) the Priests even from the very seat of Peter, and in that rank of father's mark who succeeded whom: that is the rock against which the proud gates of hell prevail not. And, that the performance of the said promise in the last of john, Feed my sheep, pertaineth also to the Pope, S. c De sacerdotio, lib. 2. Chrysostom is witness, avouching expressly, that Christ did commit his sheep to be fed both unto Peter, and to Peter's successors. Which to be likewise meant by those words in the two and twentéeth of Luke, I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not, and thou being converted strengthen thy brethren: d In decretali●●s epist. Concil. Tom. 1. Pope Marcus in his decretal epistle to Athanasius, Pope Lucius in his decretal epistle to the demands of French and Spanish Bishops, Pope Felix in his decretal epistle to Benignus, have manifestly taught. Rainoldes. Nettles amongst roses, when you set the bastard authors of these decretals amongst the ancient Fathers. But tell me in good sooth: think you that every Pope must deny Christ? Hart. Deny Christ? What mean you to ask me that question? Rainoldes. Because you seem to say, that e Luc. 22. ver. 32. Christ's words to Peter, and thou being converted strengthen thy brethren, are meant of all them. Hart. What? And say I therefore, that they must deny Christ? Rainoldes. Or else you say nothing. For why said Christ to Peter, and thou being converted? Did he not say it f ver. 34. in respect that Peter would avert and turn himself away from him, when he denied him thrice? Hart. So: what if he did? Rainoldes. Then if the same words be meant of all Popes, every Pope must first be turned away from Christ, that he may be converted after: and therefore every Pope must deny Christ. If I should say so: some would be angry with me. But you may say what you list. Hart. This is such a reason, as that, (which hath been made too,) that if the words, g Mat. 16. ver. 1● Thou art Peter, concern Peter's successor, than the words, h ver. 23. Satan, thou art an offence to me, must concern him also, because they were spoken by Christ to Peter both. But, as i Rob. Bellarm. contr. 4. quaest. ●. Father Robert answereth to that, so do I to this, that the reason followeth not. For certain things (saith he) are spoken to Peter for himself alone; certain for himself, and for all Christians; certain for himself, and for his successors. This is plainly gathered by the divers reason and consideration, whereon they are spoken to him. For those things which are spoken to him as one of the faithful, are understood to be spoken unto all the faithful: as, k Mat. 18. 2●, if thy brother trespass against thee. Those things which are spoken in some respect of his own person, are spoken unto him alone: as, l Luc. 22.34. thou shalt deny me thrice. Those things which are spoken in regard of his pastoral duty, are spoken unto all pastors: as m joh. 21.15. feed my sheep, and, strengthen thy brethren. And thus you may see that the words of Christ, I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not, and, strengthen thy brethren, might in such sort be spoken unto Peter, that they might pertain to every Pope also: though the other words, to deny Christ, and to be converted, do not pertain to them. You will not say yourself, (I trust) of faithful Christians, that they must all deny Christ. Yet n Chapt. 3. Diuis. 2. you said that this prayer & commandment of Christ pertain to them all, if you be remembered. Rainoldes. I remember it well: and it is very true. But this doth give a deadly stripe to that argument, which you pretended to be made by the Fathers. For if the words of Christ, Feed my sheep, and, strengthen thy brethren, must be understood as spoken unto all Pastors, which by your answer you grant: then how can they prove the supremacy of one Pastor, which you conclude in your argument? Hart. I did not mean by [all Pastors] the Pastors of all Churches: but all the Pastors of one Church, namely of the Church of Rome. Rainoldes. But Robert, the Father whose words you alleged, doth mean the Pastors of all Churches. And the commandment of Christ, Feed my sheep, belongeth to them also: unless o 〈◊〉 23. de reformat. c. 1. the council of Trent mistake it. Hart. It belongeth to them: but to the Bishop of Rome chief. For p De sacerdo●io lib. 2. Chrysostom expressly saith, (as I alleged,) that Christ did commit the feeding of his sheep to Peter and to Peter's successors. Rainoldes. And be you certain, that by [peter's successors] he meant the Bishops of Rome? Hart. Whom should he mean but them? Rainoldes. He meant all Bishops: not all the Bishops of one Church, but the Bishops of all Churches. Which is evident by his words, and the intent whereto he spoke them. For to stir up Basil, and make him glad and willing to do the office of a Bishop, which he had undertaken, he telleth him, that Christ when he said to Peter, Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep, did thereby show how dear his sheep are unto him, and therefore would surely give great reward to Pastors who feed them, and guide them. For why did he shed his own blood, (saith Chrysostom) but even to purchase those sheep, the care of whom he committed to Peter and to Peter's successors. Whereupon he goeth forward, and declareth what that charge is, which Christ gave to Peter and to all Pastors by that commission Feed my sheep. So that both the course of Chrysostom● speech, and the drift of his reason, and the person whom it implieth, S. Basil, Bishop, not of Rome, but of Caesarea, do manifestly show, that he meant, by naming [the successors of Peter] all Pastors of the flock, all Bishops of the Church of Christ. And this is so clear, that q Rob. Bellarmin. contr. 4. quaest. 3. Father Robert himself (in his Roman Lectures) doth not only grant it, but also prove it by two reasons: one, out of r De agone Christian. c. 30 Austin, that Peter was a figure of the Church, that is to say, he represented all Pastors, when Christ said to him, feed my sheep: an other, out of s Serm. 3. in an●iuersar. assump●ionis su●. Leo, that Peter is an example and as it were a pattern, the which all Pastors ought to follow. How much the more shameful is the ignorance of your Doctors, if they knew it not; the wilfulness, if they knew it: who bear men in hand that Chrysostom doth prove the Pope's supremacy by those successors. Wherein the oversight * Who allege it, and urge i● as very forcible to that purpose: in their Annotat. on joh. 21.17. of your Rhemists is great: but a pair of jesuits, Cani●ius and Busaeus, do go beyond their fellows. For t In opere Catechistico Petri Canisij edito a Busae o. de praeceptis eccles. art. 9 they, amongst many sentences of the Fathers, the worst of them as fit as this to prove the Papacy, do set out this as the best; and triumph of it, as of a peerless proof, by giving it a special note in the margin: * Nota●tum Petro, tum success soribus curam ovium commissam. Note, (say they,) to Peter, & to Peter's successors. Note it, say the jesuits. In deed it is a point well worth the noting, that you do so notoriously abuse the Church of Christ. For you persuade the simple, and chief young scholars who trust your common-place-bookes, that Chrysostom spoke of Peter and Peter's successors, in the same meaning that the Pope doth, when he u Pope Boniface the eighth▪ c. una sanctam. extra. de maioritat. & obedientia. saith that Peter and Peter's successor is the head of the Church; and x Pope Pius the fourth. In bulla super ●orma juramenti prosessionis fidei. bindeth men by solemn oath to be obedient to the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter. Whereas S. Chrysostom meant by Peter's successors, all them whom Christ doth put in trust to feed his sheep: as y Lib. 4. dist. 18. the Master of the sentences, and z In 4. sentent. dist. 18. q. 1. art. 1 Thomas of Aquine do give the name of Peter's successors to all Priests & Prelates (as they term them,) that is, to all Pastors & Doctors of the Church: as S. a De agone Christ. cap. 30. Austin teacheth that it is said to all when it is said to Peter, Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep: as S. b De dignitat●●acerd. cap. 2. Ambrose writeth that he and all Bishops have received the charge of the sheep with Peter: as c In epist. ad clerum Carthag. apud Cyprian. epist. 3. the Roman clergy apply it to the rest of the disciples of Christ, & to the clergy of Carthage too. Such invincible reasons you fetch out of the Fathers for the Roman Papacy: by which every Bishop may claim as much above the Roman, as may the Roman above any. Hart. In deed, to feed the sheep is common after a sort to the Pastors of all Churches. But in many Churches the faith of Pastors hath failed. Wherefore Christ's prayer for the faith of Peter, that it should not fail, is not common to them all. Only the Bishops of the Church of Rome have never failed in faith. By the which event of things it is plain, that Christ made that prayer for Peter's successors in the See of Rome: and so did establish them over all, in charging them to strengthen their brethren. Rainoldes. And do you think that all the Bishops of Rome have had the same privilege which Christ obtained for Peter in that his faith failed not? Hart. The very same, no doubt. Rainoldes. And have they showed their faith by d jam. 2.18. their works too, by e 1. joh. ●. 4. & 3. 2●. keeping Christ's commandments, by loving one another? Hart. They have so perhaps. Rainoldes. Away with that [perhaps:] for all the world knoweth they have not. Yea seven hundred years ago, not to speak of later times, wherein their power and wealth have kindled sparks of greater licence, and loosed the reins unto their lusts, but seven hundred years ago, when they were yet of meaner estate, the proof hereof was famous by sundry of their lives succeeding one another: Formosus, Boniface, Stephen, Romanus, Theodore, john the ninth, and a little after them, Christopher, and Sergius. Of whom their own friends and favourers do write that f 〈…〉 johan. decim. they were gone from Peter's steps, that g In Benedicto quart. & Sergio 〈◊〉. they did get his See by bribery, that they were h ●●odigiosi. ●●●ebraid. Chronogr. lib. 4. monstrous men, or rather i Portenta & monstra. Platina in Bene●icto quart. & Christophoro. prim. beasts and monsters. Amongst whom, the 1 Platina in vita Formosi. first was accursed by a Pope, and made himself Pope by perjury. The 2 Sigon. de regno Ital. lib. 6. second would (but that he was prevented by death;) the 3 Platina in vita Steph. sexti. third did repeal the decrees of the first, and condemn his acts: the 4 Romani. fourth condemned the third, and justified the first: the 5 Theodo●i secundi. fifth did keep the same race: the 6 johannis decimi. sixth confirmed it by a Council: the 8 Sergij tertij. last, for all the Council and the Pope's allowing it, restored the third to his credit, and again condemned the first. * Ita vertigo ●otabat Petri successores. jesu Christi vicarios i●●erris. Thus were Peter's successors whirled about with giddiness, as k Metropolis lib. 2. cap. 22. Krantzius speaketh of them: and the head of the Church was long without a brain. A thing very strange, and such as (I think) hath scarce been heard off amongst the Barbarians: that l Pope Stephen the sixth. one of these successors, did take up the carcase of m Pope Formosus. Sigonius de regn. Ital. l. 6. his predecessor out of his grave, brought it into judgement before a Council of Bishops, spoiled it of his Papal robes, clad it with a layman's garments, indited it, arraigned it, condemned it, n Lui●prand. ●●cin. l. 1. c. 8. where he ascribeth it to Sergius, because they were of Sergius faction whose ministery Stephen did use in it: Sigon. lib. 6. ●ergiani. cut off three fingers ofit, and cast it into the stream of Tiber. Yet this Pope might have been a Saint of the Popes, in comparison of o whom Platina calleth john the thirteenth. john the twelfth. For he did show more cruelty upon the bodies of many living; then the other, of one dead: and the other excelled not so much in one vice, as john the twelfth in all, in ungodliness, unrighteousness, intemperance, pride, in whooredomes, adulteries, incests, murders, in perjuries, simony, sacrileges, blasphemies, and such abominations as I abhor to mention. Not Catiline, not Nero, not Heliogabalus, not the most monstrous wretches that ever lived in Rome, came near unto him. It were incredible that one caraine should have so much, so horrible filth, but that his own Church and the Italian Bishops (in a Council assembled by the Emperor Otho) did charge him with these things, and with things more villainous and outrageous than these. And himself, when the Emperor and Council wrote unto him, that he should come to make his answer, made this answer to them, and other he would make none, that he cursed them all to hell if they attempted to deprive him, as he heard say they did. Luitprandus, a deacon of a Church in Italy, p Platina in vita Stephani quint. a man commended for his holiness, who lived at the same time, q Histor. rerum per Europam gesta●um l. 6. c. 6. & 7. & 8. & 10 doth write this story of Pope john; and that with such credit, that beside r Martin. Polon. in supput. Pont. Martinus, s In Chronic. monast. Hirsau. Tritemius, t in johann. decimo tert. Platina, u Saxon. l. 4. c. 9 & Metrop. l. 3. c. 1. Krantzius, and x Sigibertus in Chronic. Blondus decad. 2. lib. 3. others, men of your own religion, who writ the sum of it after him: Sigonius (an Italian, y The discovery of Nicols, part. 2. to whom your Pope giveth almost a thousand crowns yearly to read in one of his Universities,) though he dissemble much, in his Italian history, the things that touch the Pope's state; yet z Sigon. de regno Italiae lib. 7. he acknowledgeth this, and writeth it somewhatfully. Now (I hope) you will not say of this Pope, Pope john the twelfth, that perhaps he showed his faith by his works: or if you would say that he showed his faith (as it may be he did,) yet you will not say that it was such a faith, as was the faith of Peter for which our Saviour prayed. For, if you think here, that notwithstanding all these crimes he might be good after, as Peter repented when he had denied Christ, and so his faith did not fail, though it did faint: then I must tell you further, that Pope john went forward as he had begun, and his death was answerable unto his life. a Alb. Krantz. Metrop. l. 5 c. 1. While he was committing adultery▪ he was slain: whether b Platina in vita johan. decimi tert. Blondus decad 2. lib. 3. thrust through by some who took him in the act, or c Luitpr●nd. Ticin. l. 6. c. 11. Sigibert. in Chron. Tritem. in Chron. monast. Hirsaug. stricken by the devil; historians agree not. But d Summa de eccles. l. 2. c. 103. Cardinal Turrecremata doth take that as more likely, which is more dreadful. Because the life (saith he) of Pope john was detestable, and marvelous offensive to the Christian people: therefore Christ himself gave out the sentence of condemnation against him. For, while he was abusing a certain man's wife, the Devil struck him suddenly, and so he died without repentance. Hart. What if Pope john, and some others of them, offended in their lives? Yet their faith failed not, that faith which Christ spoke off. For by the name of [faith] he meant the doctrine of faith, which he prayed for Peter and so for his successors that they might keep sound, and never be seduced from it to any heresy. No more was Pope john, nor any other of the Popes: though in their lives they were not all of the best. Rainoldes. I thought that Christ had meant by the name of [faith] a lively Christian faith: which e Rom. 3.25. embraceth the promise of the mercy of God; which f Gal. 5.6. worketh by love, and bringeth forth the fruits of faith; which g joh. 6.47. whosoever have, they have assurance of everlasting life. But you think belike that he meant a dead faith: a faith, which they have of whom h jam. 2.19. it is written, the Devils believe, and tremble; a faith, which Pope john might have, and be a reprobate, and die without repentance, and be the heir of death eternal. Hart. I say not that Christ meant a dead faith, but the right faith: that is, as I said, the true and Catholic doctrine of the faith of Christ. As the scripture useth that word, where it is written, that i 1. Tim. 1.1. in the later times some shall departed from the faith, and shall give heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of Devils. The doctrines of Devils are heresies whatsoever. The faith is the true doctrine set against heresies. S. Pe●er held this faith when he said, k Matt. 16.16. Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. From this faith the devil would have removed him. But Christ prayed for him that it should not fail. And so I say he prayed for the Bishops of Rome, that it should fail in none of them. Rainoldes. But this faith is also a faith, which l Luc. 4. ●1. the Devils may have, and yet tremble: a faith, which Pope john might have and be a reprobate, and die without repentance, and be the heir of death eternal. Hart. What if it be so? Rainoldes. Then Christ prayed for Peter, that he should never lose that faith, which faith he might have kept and yet be lost himself, even lost both body and soul to everlasting death. Hart. If I should grant you so much: Rainoldes. Nay, you must needs grant it: for it is proved by Pope john. But why said Christ to Peter, m Luc. 22▪ ●●. Satan hath desired, that he may sift you, as wheat? What is that to sift the disciples, as wheat? Hart. To sift them, as wheaten meal: that is, to shake out of them all their truth and faithfulness, as flower out of the sieve, and leave nothing within them but bran as it were. Rainoldes. Then Satan desired to shake out of them all their love towards Christ, that they might forsake him, and revolt from him. Hart. He did so. Rainoldes. And this he did, to what end, but that he might destroy them: n job 1.11. & 2.5. as he desired to sift job? As S. Peter warneth us: o 1. Pet. 5. ver. ●. the Devil goeth about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Hart. It is true. Rainoldes. And as S. Peter armeth us against the attempts of the Devil by this lesson, p ver. ●. whom resist ye strong in faith: so Christ did arm him by praying to God, and obtaining for him, that his faith should not fail. Hart. Very true. He armed him and made him most strong q Luc. 22. 3●. that he being converted might strengthen his brethren. Rainoldes. Do you not see then that he must needs mean by [faith] a lively faith, which hath the love of Christ and constant godliness joined with it? by which the Devil is conquered, hell escaped, heaven assured? For, if he had meant the doctrine, as you construe it, the true and Catholic doctrine of the faith of Christ: how had he armed Peter against those fiery darts of Satan, which a right opinion in matters of faith was not able to quench? Wherein mark, I pray, what blemish you cast on the wisdom of Christ, whom you suppose to have said to Peter: the Devil will tempt you to draw you from my love, and to destroy you body and soul; but I have prayed for thee, that thou shalt think aright in matters of faith. Which is, as if a Captain, to cheer up a soldier (whom he had special care off) against the battle, should tell him: the enemy will assault you with poisoned shot, to kill you; but I have got a shield of paper for thee, to defend thee from it. Then which what can be spoken more ridiculous, or absurd? Hart. As though a right faith were no stronger fence against assaults of the Devil, then is a shield of paper against poisoned shot. S. Paul thought not so, r 〈◊〉 6.16. who in the armour of a Christian exhorteth us above all things to take the shield of faith. Rainoldes. S. Paul meaneth not the same by [faith] that you do. For he addeth of that shield, that we may quench all the fiery darts of * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the wicked (that is to say, of the devil) with it. But a right opinion in matters of faith cannot quench them all: as it is plain by joh. 13. ●. Mat. 27.4. Act. 1.18. judas, or by Pope john. Therefore, he meaneth by [the shield of faith] a lively Christian faith, which God doth give to his elect, and to them only; t Re●. 12.11. Heb. 10. ver. 19.22. & ●8. by which we overcome the devil, and all his forces, and enter into heaven. Howbeit, I deny not, that a right opinion in matters of faith is stronger than paper against some darts of Satan, to weet, against errors. But to be preserved safe from these darts, is not enough to life: neither do all of them give mortal wounds. The darts, whereof I spoke, are more sharp, & deadly. Whom they wound, they kill. Against the which kind, if Christ had armed Peter with such a faith as you imagine, when Satan desired to sift him as wheat: it is profane to think it, but it followeth of your fancy, that he armed him with (as it were) a paper-shield against poisoned shot. For, as against this shot a shield of paper cannot preserve our temporal life: so a right opinion in matters of faith could not save him to life eternal from those darts. Hart. And what if our Saviour meant a lively faith in that he prayed for Peter? Rainoldes. Then he prayed for Peter that which he prayed not for the Popes. For u he obtaineth always the things which he prayeth for. But he obtained not a lively faith for all the Popes, as I have proved. Therefore he prayed not for it. And so is that position found to be false, on which you pitch the Papacy; that Christ made that prayer for Peter's successors in the See of Rome, The second Division. which he made for Peter, not to fail in faith. Hart. Yet Christ gave him also that faith which we speak off: I mean a right judgement in matters of faith, with grace, that neither it should fail. And in this privilege the Pope doth succeed him, though not in the other. Rainoldes. You should first prove that Christ meant this privilege in mentioning [faith] there: or else, I will answer, that x Luc. 24.49. Act. 2.4. he gave it to Peter, as to the Apostles. And so may their successors claim it, as well as Peter's. But admit he meant it. The Pope doth not succeed him in this privilege neither. For the Pope may, not only err in doctrine, but also be an heretic. Which (I hope) you will not say that Peter might. Hart. Neither, by my good will, that the Pope may. Rainoldes. But you must: no remedy. It is a ruled case. Your Schoolmen and canonists, y In dialogo part. 1. lib. 6. cap. 1. Ockam, z In Summa. lib. 5. tit. de ha●eticis. Hostiensis, a Summa de eccles. l. 2. c. 93. & 112. Turrecremata, b 〈◊〉 Pontificum. Zabarella, c De concord. catholica l. 2. c. 17. Cusanus, d Summ. part. 3 tit. 22. c. 7. Antoninus, e Adverse. haeres. l. 1. c. 2. & 4. Alfonsus, f Loco●. theolog. lib. 6. cap. 8. Canus, g De visib. Monarc. lib. 7. Sanders, h controvers. 4. part. 2. quaest. 1· Bellarmin, and i Canonistae in Dist. 40. c. Si Papa. Archid. & joan. Andr. c. in fidei. de haereticis. in Sex●. Caietan. de autoritat. Papae & council. cap. 20. & 23. others, yea the k Dist. 40. c. Si Papa. Canon law itself, yea a l Synod. Romana quint. sub Symmacho. Council, a Roman council, confirmed by the Pope, do grant it. Hart. They grant that the Pope may be an heretic, perhaps, by a supposal: as many things may be, which never were, nor are, nor shall be. For you cannot prove, that ever any Pope was an heretic, actually: though possibly they may be. Whereof I will not strive. Rainoldes. If they may be possibly, which you must needs grant: then is it certain that it was not meant by the words of Christ that they should not fail in doctrine of faith. For whatsoever he saith, that it shall not be: that cannot be possibly. But it it is no surer that they may be heretics: than it is manifest, that some of them have been. For when the Church was pestered with the heresy of the Monothelites, who, (whereas Christ is made our Saviour and redeemer by that he doth consist of m 1. Tim. 3. 1●. two natures, God and man; and as of two natures, so of n Luc. 22.42. two wills, agreeably to the natures,) they say that Christ hath but only * Whence they are called (after the Greeke) Monothelites, as you would say One-wilmen. one will, and by consequent but one nature; which razeth the ground of our salvation: Honorius the Pope did hold and teach this heresy. The o Sext. synod. Constantinopolit. actione 12. & 13. sixth general council found him guilty of it: condemned him, and cursed him for it. Hart. Whether Pope Honorius held that heresy or no: the Catholics are of divers judgements; some thinking that he did, some that he did not. Father Robert, the reader of controversies in Rome, preferreth the opinion of p De hierar. ecclesiast. l. 4. c. 8. Pighius, q Contra Brentium. lib. 2. Hosius, and r Annotat. in ● latin. vit. Hon or. prim. Onuphrius, before them all who think otherwise: and so with their consent, he doth acquit Honorius. Rainoldes. How? by a pardon? as s job. 18.40. Barrabas was acquitted? Or, have they empaneled a jury of Clerks, and found him not guilty? Hart. They show by good reasons that he is falsely slandered. For Pighius and Hosius do bring the testimonies of historians, Platina, Sabellicus, Nauclerus, Blondus, & Aeneas silvius: who say, that Honorius did condemn the heresy of the Monothelites. Whereto Onuphrius addeth the authorities of emmanuel Callêca, a Grecian; and john of Turrecremata, Cardinal of Sansisto: who have proved by their writings that he was a Catholic Bishop. Rainoldes. Have proved? Nay they would, had not their proofs failed. But is not this a strange answer? The question is touching Honorius, a Pope, who lived almost a thousand years ago, what he taught in a point of faith. The Bishops, who lived about the same time, t Synod. se●t. subscript. act. ●● not many fewer than two hundred or (as Histor. mis●ell. Paul. Diac. 〈◊〉. 19 some writ) three hundred, do say, and prove their saying by his own writings, that he taught erroneously as the Monothelites. Platina, Sabellicus, Nauclerus, Blondus, silvius, Callêca, and Turrecremata, seven of the Pope's friends, of whom the eldest lived above six hundred years after him, do affirm the contrary. Whether of these are likelier to know and say the truth thereof? Hart. But there are also in the Pope's library the writings of Maximus, who lived about the same time. And it is plain by him that Honorius did not subscribe to that heresy: yea, that of a certainty he did condemn it. Rainoldes. Onuphrius might say so, and (as he thought) safely, because it was not likely, that we should see Maximus in the Pope's library to disprove his saying. But it is disproved by your own De●ens. fidei Trident. lib. 2. Andradius. Who discoursing hereof, to show that it is not certain that Honorius did first condemn the heresy of the Monothelites, though Platina, and Sabellicus, and Blondus, and Aeneas silvius say he did: for Theophanes, (saith he) and Anastasius, historians much ancienter than they, do write that john the fourth Pope after him was the first who did it. And Maximus (as it is well noted by Torrensis a singular learned man, having purposely undertaken to clear Honorius of that heresy, made not any mention of his condemning it: though, if it had been so, he must have known it needs, and could not have omitted it. Now, this y Lib. de sexta. sep●ima, & octava synod●. Torrensis, whom Andradius praiseth, hath alleged that whole place of Maximus touching Honorius: whereof the sum is this, that the secretary of Honorius, who wrote the very epistle that he was charged by, and knew belike his meaning best, expounded part thereof in a good sense, that it might seem sound. And this is that Maximus 1 In Biblio●heca Palatina. in the Pope's library, by which your Onuphrius doth take it to be 2 Satis manifestum est. plain, (or at the least would have us take it,) that Honorius did never subscribe to that heresy, yea, that of a certainty he did condemn it. But see what difference between men. Andradius, who alloweth the secretaries exposition which Maximus alleged to clear Honorius of that heresy, yet thinketh it plain by that place of Maximus, that he did not condemn it. Torrensis, a friend of the Popes too, declareth, that a part of the epistle of Honorius is helped reasonably by the secretaries exposition: but it fitteth not another part thereof, in which it is plain by his own words, that he was a Monothelite. So Torrensis who had access to the Pope's library as well as Onuphrius, hath showed that Onuphrius did mean to steal a lie by sending us to Maximus in the Pope's library. As for Maximus himself, he was loath, for good will both to Honorius and the truth, that the heretics should boast (as z In council. Roman. Martin. Secretary 4. they did) of such a patron: and therefore he desired to withdraw him from them. But a Sext. Synod. Constantinop. act. 11. the general Council (before which he wrote) found after, on better examination of the matter, that Honorius joined with them, and taught as they did. Wherefore, whatsoever Maximus hath written or rather wished of it: the Council is of greater credit than Maximus; much more, than Callêca or Turrecremata, who could not say therein so much as Maximus, b joan. de Turrecrem. in summa de eccles. l. 2. c. 93. and Maximus is the best that they say. Hart. That which you allege of the Council, were somewhat, if they had condemned Honorius of that heresy. But they did not: although it be so written in the Council now. For Anastasius, the keeper of the Pope's library, who lived within two hundred years after Honorius, doth teach in his Latin history, out of Theophanes a Greek writer, that the 1 Vulg●●a exempla●●a sextae synodi a Graecis cor●upta. common copies of the sixth Council were corrupted by the Grecians; and the 2 Canon's, in quibus Honorius condemna●ur, supposititios esse. Canons thereof, in the which Honorius is condemned, were forged. Rainoldes. Canons? what Canons? There are no Canons of the sixth Council in which Honorius is condemned. Neither doth Anastasius or Theophanes say it. Hart. No? Sure c Annotat. in Plat. vit. Honor. Onuphrius saith as I said. And that which he saith, he saith that Sirletus, then, a chief Notary, now Cardinal of Rome, an excellent learned man, had marked it. Rainoldes. A foul and gross fault, either of Sirletus, or Onuphrius, or both. For there were two meetings of Bishops at Constantinople, which both do bear the name of the sixth Council: Sexta Synodus Constantinop. the former, under the Emperor Constantine the fourth, about the year of Christ six hundred and eighty; 2 Canon's patrum Constantinop. in Trullo. the later, under his son justinian, toward a thirty years after. The former was assembled against the heresy of the Monothelites: the Bishops of the west Church, as well as of the east were present, and they with one consent did all condemn Honorius. In the later there met the Bishops of the east only, who made rules and orders of ecclesiastical discipline, which are the Canons that you mention. These Canons do contain the sum of the ordinances of the Greek Church: wherein the Church of Rome is grated upon, both for d can. 3. & 13. & 55. & 69. other points, and chief for can. 36. & 39 the Pope's supremacy. The Greek Bishops therefore to win the more credit unto their Canons, said that they were made by the sixth general Council. Of which Synod. Nicen. secund. action. 4. ●. Habeo librum. distinct. ●6. they reported, that, when it was dismissed, the very same Fathers, whom Constantine the Emperor assembled before, were again assembled by his son justinian, after a four or five years, and ordained those Canons. But Theophanes, and Anastasius have showed that to be a tale, as it is in deed: and in discourse thereof have said of those Canons, that they are falsely named the Canons of the sixth Council. Now Sirletus, falling belike on these words, and remembering that the sixth Council is said to have condemned Honorius: thought it either true, or wholesome to be taught as true, that he was condemned by harlotry Canons not made by the Council, but forged in the Counsels name. Which fancy peradventure he told his friend Onuphrius: and Onuphrius for joy went and set it in print. So, by the conveyance of Onuphrius and Sirletus, pretending and abusing the countenance and names of Anastasius, and Theophanes: the sixth general Council is put to silence (as it were,) from bearing witness against Honorius. But, the mischief of it is, that g Lib. de sext●. septima, & octava synod. Torrensis again doth mar the play. For out of the histories of Theophanes and Anastasius (which are not common to be seen) he hath alleged also this place touching those Canons. Whereby it is manifest that their meaning was not to discredit the actions of the sixth Council which condemned Honorius in the time of Constantine, as you would have us to imagine. Their meaning was only to show that the Canons, which are called the Canons of the sixth Council, were made by other Bishops in the time of justinian, long after that Council, and therefore are falsely fathered upon that. Hart. But is not Honorius condemned by those Canons, whosoever made them? Rainoldes. He is not as much as named in any of them, h Can. patru●● Constantinop. in Trullo. can. ●. save only in the first: where they who named him, have named him so, that both they have severed themselves from the sixth Council, by which he was condemned, and have increased the credit of it. For they reckon him amongst the heads of the Monotheli●es, and say of them all, that the sixth Council did condemn them justly. Hart. That Canon savoureth of corruption, which speaketh so of Pope Honorius. Rainoldes. So. What say you then to the i Sexta Synod Constantinop. act. 13. sixth general Council it self? They do speak of him a great deal more bitterly, reproving his doctrine as the doctrine of heretics, false, wicked, pestilent. Nor thinking it enough to condemn his doctrine, they curse his name and person also. Hart. I say that the copies of the sixth general council are corrupted. Rainoldes. The sixth general Council hath handled the cause of the Monothelite heretics in eighteen actions, as they are termed. In the first action, the eight, and the eleventh: the heretics allege in their own defence, that Pope Honorius taught as they do. In the twelfth, and thirteenth, his writings are examined, his heresy discovered, himself condemned, and cursed. In the sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth, the sentence which was given against him, and * Honorio haeretico anathema. the curse, are repeated often, again and again, with acclamation of the Council. Think you that the copies of the actions of the Council are corrupted in all those places? Hart. In all, in which Honorius is condemned, or cursed. Rainoldes. What? and that those places are corrupted in all copies, and that without difference, all after one sort▪ all with the same words? Hart. All? why not? is that impossible? Rainoldes. Not impossible: yet improbable. But the k Synod. Nicaena 2 action. 7. in definite. Synod. seventh general Council, which you esteem so greatly for their defence of image-worship, this seventh doth make no better account of Honorius. Hart. The seventh general Council is corrupted too. Rainoldes. But in the l Synodus octava Constantinop. sub Adrian. secund. act. 7. eight general Council there is rehearsed a speech of Adrian the Pope, which he had uttered in a council assembled by himself. In that he affirmeth, that the Bishops of the east did condemn Honorius with the consent of the Bishop of Rome. Hart. The eight general Council is corrupted too. Rainoldes. But m In epist. ad Constantin. August. Synod. sext. act. 18. Leo the second, who was Pope then when the sixth Council was ended, doth namely confirm this point with these words: we accurse Honorius, who hath not lightened this Apostolic Church with Apostolic doctrine, but by wicked treachery hath laboured to subvert the undefiled faith. Hart. That epistle of Leo is corrupted too. Rainoldes. But many other learned both Greek and Latin authors, n De ration. temp. & in martyrologio. Beda, o De sept. sacris synod. Graecor. Psellus, p Contra Nicetam. Vmbertus, q In paefat. ad sextam Synod. Balsamon, r Chronic. l. 2. Marianus Scotus, s Sept. Synod. act. 3. in epist. ad ●pisc. & Tharasius, and the * episcopor. ad Tharas. eastern bishops, yea t Pontifical. in ver 1 con. second. your own Pontifical of the Pope's lives, make report of it. Hart. What needeth this ado? It is all answered by u Bellarm. controver 4. part. ●. quaest. 1. Father Robert in a word. For either these authors are corrupted themselves, or they were deceived by the copies of the sixth council being corrupted. Rainoldes. The saying of Tully (I see) is very true: x Cic. ad Luc. epist. lib. 5. He that is once gone beyond the bounds of modesty, must lustily be impudent. y De hierar. ecclesiast. lib. 4. Albertus' Pighius, an Archpapist, intending to prove (in his books of the holy princehood of the Church,) that in all causes of faith and religion the Pope is the sovereign judge of all Christians, whom they are bound to hear and follow: because it was absurd, he thought, and very dangerous to attribute so great a power to one man, unless the man were such, as might not err in faith, z cap. 6. & 7. therefore he took upon him to bring in this doctrine that the prayer of Christ for Peter's faith not to fail, doth privilege the Pope from falling into any heresy. Whereupon, as in general he denied that the Pope may be an heretic, a cap. 8. though all Divines and canonists (by his confession) grant it: so, to cleanse Honorius thereof in particular, he said that the copies of the sixth Council, which made against him, were corrupted. This dealing of Pighius was greatly misliked by learned men of his own side, b Pighius praefat. in diatrib. de acts sext. & sept. synod. in so much that one of them reproved him for it in a public assembly, & wished him to recant it. They alleged against him, that Honorius was condemned and pronounced an heretic by two general Counsels, the sixth, and the seventh: wherofthe authority ought to be held as sacred. But Pighius was so far from being moved therewith, that he wrote a c De acts sextae & septimae synodi, quod sint parengrapha & minime germana▪ Alberti Pighii Diatribe. new treatise against those two Counsels, affirming them to be corrupted: and in heat of zeal for the Pope's quarrel he called the sixth Council * Ter execrandum concilium. a most cursed Council. Here the Counsels case and peril that was like to fall on all authors, if such hot heads might make such desperate answers, did stir up the spirit of d Lib. de ●exta, septima & octava synodo. Franciscus Torrensis to write against Pighius: whom he hath confuted, and proved that Honorius was in deed an heretic, condemned by the Council justly. Sith the which time though e Con●●. Brent. lib. 2. Hosius a Cardinal, and f Annot. in Platin. vit. Honor. Onuphrius a Friar, men of hard foreheads, have taken Pighius part: yet neither have they strengthened the reasons of Pighius, shaken in pieces by Torrensis; and other of your Doctors more ingenuous and sound, namely g Sanction. eccles. clas●. 1. in propugnaculo sextae synodi. joverius, h Locor. the ●l●●gicor. l. 6. c. 8. Canus, i De●ens. f●dei. Trident. l ●. Andradius, and k De just 〈…〉 lib. 2. cap. 23. Alfonsus a Castro, have showed their mislike of Pighius and Honorius both. Yea, ●ur countryman l In his Det●●tion lib ●. Harding, who would not grant so much of any other Pope, yet granted of Honorius, that he may be justly burdened with heresy, and fell in deed into it. But now, behold, a new gamester, a jesuit, Father Robert, doth set upon the matter fresh, and teacheth in his solemn lectures at Rome, that 1 Opinio vera est, posse esse haereticum. it is true, the Pope may be an heretic: marry 2 Probabile est, & pi● credi potest, hereticum 〈◊〉 non posse. it is probable, and godly to be thought, that he cannot be an heretic. A strange resolution, and fit for a jesuit. Yet to show how probable he can make that seem which he confesseth to be false, by holding the contrary thereof to be true: he saith somewhat for every one of those Popes that are charged with heresy; and for Pope Honorius he dealeth more impudently than Pighius himself. For he toucheth not the credit of the sixth, or seventh Council, only; but all that come in his way: Counsels, Popes, Gr●ekes, Latins, Historians, Divines, either they are corrupted, or abused by corruption. Well may the opinion, which Father Robert saith for, be probable & false both. But this of Honorius, by which he would confirm it, is (out of all doubt) though false, yet not probable. Hart. It is probable enough, as Father Robert handleth it. For streams may be corrupted as easily as the fountain, or take infection at least from the fountain being corrupted. Now the fountain as it were, whence the rest have drawn it, is the sixth Council. And he saith, that there the name of Honorius was thrust in amongst the names of other heretics, by malicious men, of spite against the Pope. Whereof he bringeth two proofs. One, that Anastasius witnesseth it to have been so, out of Theophanes. An other, that the Greeks adventured sometimes to corrupt books: as n ●ext. synod. Constantinop. act. 3. the same Council declareth by their practices. Rainoldes. The Council declareth that there were some copies of a former Council, that had been corrupted by heretics among the Greeks. But, as evil dealing doth still leave steps behind it, whereby it may be traced out, o Act. 3. & 14. their corruption was discovered both by circumstances of the thing, and by the manner of writing, and by conference with other copies. Now in these places of the sixth Council in which Honorius is touched: you can show no token of any such suspicion. Nay, the tokens all are clear to the contrary: even that which you allege of the Greeks convicted to have corrupted books. For if they had corrupted so much of the Council in so many places: it is very likely that they would have also corrupted those places, wherein they are noted and discredited for such corruptions. Neither doth Anastasius report out of Theophanes, that the Greeks did so. Perhaps Father Robert did dream out of Onuphrius, that he had said so. But, although Onuphrius say more in that point then truth did afford: yet he saith not that. As for Anastasius: he is so far from saying it, that he gainesayeth it rather. For, p Anastas. bibl●●othecar. in vit. Leon. 2. in his story of the Pope's lives, he setteth Honorius down amongst the heretics who were condemned by the sixth Council. The same is confirmed q F●an. Torrensis de. sext. sept. & octau. synod●. in an old copy of the seventh Council, which he translated out of Greek, and left it in the Pope's library. And at the eight Council he was himself present, and put it into Latin most diligently and faithfully: there a Pope doth witness it. To be short, Torrensis addeth moreover touching Anastasius, that if he had suspected the Greeks to have corrupted any of the places concerning this matter: he would have given warning (no doubt) of it also, as he hath done of other. Wherefore, though ill disposed men amongst the Greeks corrupted books sometimes: yet the consent of copies, chiefly of the Latin * Scriptus est hic codextem poribus Se●gii primi Papae: reconditus in patriarchio ecclesiae ●omanae. Concilior. Tom. 2. in calce sextae synodi. written shortly after the time of the Council & laid up at Rome, the coherence of things, the agreement of authors, and circumstances of the story, do make it very unlikely that they dealt so with the sixth Council in the matter of Honorius. It were pity that all evidences of men should be disinherited, because there are some evidences falsified by evil men. But Father Robert dealeth, as Alexander the great: who, when he could not undo the knot of Gordius, did cut it a sunder with his sword. Hart. Your knot of Honorius (I wisse) is not so hard, but that he might undo it without this sword: and he doth so. For m Bellarmi●. controvers. 4. pa●● 2. quaes●. 1. he showeth, that the epistles of Honorius to Sergius, on which the sixth Council adjudged him an heretic, are both wisely written, and 1 Nullum con●inent errorem. sound, without error. Wherefore though we should grant that he had sentence given against him by the Council: it followeth not thereof, that he was an heretic. They might condemn him unjustly. Rainoldes. Take heed. You were better let the knot alone then undo it so. This medicine will do more harm, than the disease. In deed a great r Turrecre●●●. in ●umm. de ecclesia l. 2. c. 93. Cardinal, on whom you rely much, would play fast and lose with it in such sort upon the speech of Pope Adrian: who saith that Honorius was cursed by the Bishops of the East after his death, because he was accucused of heresy. For hereupon he gathereth, that Honorius was not an heretic while he lived, nor cursed by the Pope, or Bishops of the west. But it followeth strait in Allocut. 3. 〈…〉 concilio ●omano, lecta in Synod. act. 7. the speech of Adrian, (which the Cardinal cut off,) that unless the Pope had consented to it, the Bishops of the east would not have condemned him. Moreover, the acts of the Council show, how Bishops of the west were also Sext. Synod. Const●ntinop. 〈…〉. present, and u Act. 17. & 18. subscribed. So that the sentence (given against Honorius) was given by the Council, and by the Pope himself, not by the eastern Bishops only. Wherefore if the epistles of Honorius were sound, on which, as unsound, he was condemned of heresy: then a general Council confirmed by the Pope did err in condemning him. And if you grant this, as you must by consequent: you betray the strongest castle of Popery, to save a captains honour. For men of judgement will think, that the doctrine of the reformed Churches may be sound, for which as unsound the Council of Trent confirmed by the Pope hath condemned us. They might condemn us unjustly. Hart. Not so. For they examined and knew very perfectly the doctrine of the reformed Churches, as you call them. Rainoldes. What? And did the other condemn and curse the doctrine of Honorius a Pope: and did they not examine and know it very perfectly? Hart. If this do not stand with the Counsels credit: Father Robert maketh an other answer yet, which may be liked better. Namely, that the epistles were perhaps Portas●is episto●l●sunt convicts. counterfeited: not written by Honorius, but by some heretic in his name. And so might the Council condemn the doctrine justly, but err in the person. Rainoldes. Yet were this also a blemish of the Council, to condemn a Pope in steed of an heretic. But they have not deserved to be touched with it. For, the Sext. synod. Constantinop. act. 12. former epistle, upon the proof whereof they did proceed to sentence, they saw it conferred with the authentical Latin copy, & found it to agree. Beside that, y Maximus in disputat. contr. Pyr●hum. the author whom yourselves allege to clear Honorius, confessed it to be Honorius his own: and he confessed it then, when the secretary of Honorius, who wrote it with his own hand, was alive, of good account, and bare witness of it. The Sext. synod. Constantinop. action. 13. later was approved to the Council, as the former: though they stood less about it, as néeding less inquiry, when he was now already cast. But it hath all presumptions for it, so probable, that not as much as a Hierar. 〈◊〉. ib. 4. cap ●. Pighius could suspect it, though he suspected the other. Neither do I think that father Robert thought them in deed to be counterfeited. But as a man that is in danger of drowning doth snatch at every bulrush to save his life, if it may be: so he, seeing the Pope made subject to heresy by the sixth general Council, doth catch at every fancy, whereby he hath some hope to help him. The fancy of Pighius is, that the Council did not condemn Honorius: the copies of it are corrupted. b Defence. 〈◊〉. Trident. lib. 2. Andradius checketh that, and saith he was condemned: but the Council erred in condemning him, as judging him to err, who did not. c De sext. sept. & octau. Synod. Torrensis varieth from them both, and cometh in with a finer quirk: to weet, that Pope Honorius did consent with heretics, but, as a private man; and not, as Pope. This d In the places afore quoted. Canus, and Alfonsus, and Harding rest upon, and e Ch●onog●. lib. 3. Genebrard after them: who addeth yet withal (for fear of the worst) that the heretical epistles of Honorius were counterfeited perhaps. All these hath Father Robert, and flitteth up and down, to this, to that, amidst them: at the last, as one half gone and past sense, he layeth hold on the weakest, even on the bulrush of Pighius. Now, if that of Pighius be so inconvenient, that the force of truth doth drive you back from it: you must retire also from that, as inconvenient, whereof it doth follow. That is the false principle, wherein you join with him, and f Pighius pr●fat. in diatrib. & in diatribe de acts sext. & se●●. Synod. he thereon doth reason thus: Christ prayed for the Pope, in that he prayed for Peter, his faith not to fail: therefore the Pope cannot err. The Pope cannot err: therefore Pope Honorius was not an heretic. Honorius was not an heretic: therefore the sixth general Council did not condemn him. For the conclusion hereof, being false, doth argue a falsehood in that which doth infer it. That is the first proposition: which you must amend, and reason thus of the contrary. The sixth general Council did condemn Honorius: therefore he was an heretic. Pope Honorius was an heretic: therefore the Pope may err. The Pope may err: Christ therefore prayed not for the Pope, in that he prayed for Peter. For had he prayed for the Pope, than the faith of Pope Honorius had not failed. But his faith failed. Christ therefore prayed not for him. Hart. The third Division. You shall not teach me how to reason. The first proposition of Pighius is good, though it be admitted that his conclusion is fawtie. For the learned Catholics, albeit they grant that Honorius was an heretic and condemned justly by the sixth general Council: yet they hold that Christ prayed for the Pope, and that therefore the Pope cannot err; but how? Christ did not respect S. Peter's person, but his office, when he prayed for him that his faith should not fail: for it was to this end, that he being converted might strengthen and confirm his brethren. Now, because the Church, for whose sake that privilege was given unto Peter, should need to be strengthened afterward no less then in his time: therefore was it given to him, not as to him alone for himself, but as for his successors in the Church of Rome too. So, the Pope is privileged from falling into error by the prerogative of his office, through the ordinance of Christ: that would have all Bishops and Pastors of the world to depend on him for their confirmation in faith and ecclesiastical regiment. Whereof it ensueth that he cannot err in respect of his office, although in respect of his person he may: or (to speak it after the phrase of the 1 Er●orem esse duplicem: alte●um personalem. al●erum iudicialem. Melchior Canus locorum Theolog. lib. 6. cap. 8. Schoolmen) he may err personally, but not judicially. For error is twofold: personal, and judicial. Error personal, is the private error of a man: judicial, the public. Into public errors Popes can not fall: they may into private. I mean, 2 As the Rhemists expound that distinction of Canu●: in their Annotat. ●n Luk. ●2. ●1. they may err in person, understanding, private doctrine, or writings: but they cannot nor shall not ever judicially conclude or give definitive sentence for falsehood or heresy against the Catholic faith, in their Consistories, Courts, Counsels, decrees, deliberations, or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controversies, doubts, or questions of faith as shallbe proposed unto them: because Christ's prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren. And hereupon we say the Pope may err, as a private man, but not as Pope. Which, although you call it a quirk, and fancy, yet hath it pith & weight. For [Pope] doth note the office: [a private man] the person. And any man of sense may see the difference between the person and the office, as well in doctrine, as life. Liberius in persecution might yield, Marcellinus for fear might commit idolatry, Honorius might fall to heresy, and more than all this, some judas might creep into the office: and yet all this without prejudice of the office and seat, in which (saith S. g Epist. 166. in fine. Augustine) our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth. h joh. 11.50 Caiphas by privilege of his office prophesied right of Christ: but according to his own faith and knowledge, knew not Christ. The Evangelists and other pens of holy write, for the execution of that function had the assistance of God, and so far could not possibly err: but that Luke, Mark, Solomon, or the rest might not err in other their private writings, that we say not. It was not the personal- Rainoldes. You need not prove a thing confessed. Common sense doth teach it. A ruler of a company may be a good man and an evil magistrate. King Alexander had two friends, of whom he called 1 Crat●●●● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. one, the kings friend; 2 Hephaestio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the other, Alexander's friend. The magistrate and the man, the king and Alexander, the office and the person, we do not deny a difference betwixt them. Neither did I mean that every such answer is a quirk and fancy. Pope i c. quia quor●dam. extrauag. johan. 23. de verborum significatione. john the two and twentieth, when (upon a controversy about the beggary of Friars) there was alleged against him a saying of Pope Innocentius the fifth: * Dicimus, quó● hoc dix●rit, non ut Papa, sed ut frater Petrus d● Tarantasia, in quadam postilla sua. he said, that Innocentius had said it, not as Pope, but as Friar Peter of Tarantasia (that was his name, as a private man) in one of his postils. And this was well said of john. For when Innocentius was Pope, he had no leisure (I trow) to write postils: it is likely that he wrote them before he was Pope, when he was Friar Peter of Tarantasia. But as that distinction of [Pope] and [private man] is used by your doctors in the case of Honorius: so I said and say again, it is a quirk, a vain quirk and fancy. For that, which Honorius wrote, and was condemned for, he wrote it as Pope, not as a private man. Hart. You mean, that he wrote it when he was Pope: that is true. But he wrote it not as Pope. Rainoldes. I mean, that he wrote it as Pope: and I will prove it if you will give me leave. But first to take up that which you have laid to disprove it: you allege that Caiphas was exempt from error, nay prophesied right of Christ, by privilege of his office. Whereby you would imply the like touching the Pope. The example agreeth very fitly in part. But doth it agree (think you) in that part, in which it must to serve your turn? Hart. What else? For it is written in the holy gospel, that when the jews consulted in a Council what to do with Christ, whether to let let him alone, or apprehend him: joh. 11.44. Caiphas, being the high Priest of that year, said to them, you know nothing, neither do you consider, that it is expedient for us, that one man die for the people, and the whole nation perish not. And this he said not of himself: but being the high priest of that year, he prophesied that jesus should die for the nation. Rainoldes. But it is written also in the holy Gospel, that in an other Council and consultation of the jews, wherein they sought unjustly to condemn the just, when jesus being asked whether he were Christ, the son of God, confessed himself to be so: Caiphas, Matt. 26.65. the high priest, said, he hath blasphemed: what need we witnesses any further? behold, now you have heard his blasphemy. Was this speech of Caiphas, a prophecy, or an error? Hart. What if it were an error? Rainoldes. How see you not then that Caiphas did not prophecy by privilege of his office? For so he should have prophesied in this Council too, in which he sat as high Priest, he spoke as high Priest, and to him as high Priest the Council did assent in giving sentence against Christ. But that amongst many mischiefs and falshoodes he spoke the words of truth once, in a sense, not which he meant, (for he meant wickedly) but which his speech yielded: there was a work of God in it. Who, having sent his son, a saviour to the jews, as he stirred them up to know him, and receive him, by Angels, by wonders, by voices from heaven, by m Matt. 2.1. wise men from the east, n Luc. 2.36. a prophetess in the temple, o Matt. 3.1. and the rest▪ through the whole st●●ies of the Evangelists. john Baptist in the wilderness, by men, women, children, all sorts of persons, yea by the devils themselves: so he made the high Priest to bear witness of him, by giving out an Oracle under doubtful words, to make the jews more unexcusable, that by his own mouth the naughty servant might be judged. Wherefore not the ordinary privilege of office, but an extraordinary motion of God, did guide the tongue of Caiphas to prophecy of Christ: as p Num. 22.28. he opened the mouth of the ass of Balaam, to reprove her master. And you, who would gather an ordinary privilege of the Pope's office by that extraordinary prophesying of Caiphas: do make a like reason, as if you should conclude that the Pope's horse can speak, because that Balaams' ass did. Nay, you might conclude this on greater reason. For Balaams' ass spoke twice: Caiphas prophesied but once. Hart. Your similitude is odious. I marvel why you use such. Rainoldes. Because your reason is absurd: & I would feign have you see it. Hart. Absurd? He that should call it absurd in our schools, would be thought himself absurd. For, it is grounded upon a proportion betwixt the high Priest, and the Pope; the Church of the jews, and of the Christians. Rainoldes. Then by a reason of proportion (belike) the Pope condemneth Christ, as Caiphas did; and vexeth Christians, as q Act. 4. ●. Annas. Do you allow hereof in your schools also? Hart. Yet again? I see you will never leave these odious comparisons. The Pope, to Caiphas, and Annas? Rainoldes. You are a strange man: who go about to prove by the example of Caiphas, that the Pope can not err in office; and are angry with me for touching the weakness of your reason therein. Hart. Wel. * Staple●. princ. doctr. l. 2. c. 12. I grant that Caiphas had not that privilege. For it was not promised to the high Priests of the jewish Church, but till the coming of Christ: at which time the Prophets showed that it should fail them. For jeremy saith thereof: r jer. 4.9, In that day the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the Princes and the Priests shall be astonished. And Ezekiel, more plainly: s Ezek. 7.26. The law shall perish from the Priest, & counsel from the Elders. But, till that time they had it, and did teach the truth according to the law, and were to be obeyed in all things which they taught. Rainoldes. Yea? What say you then of Urias, who was high Priest under king Achaz, six hundred years before Christ? He ceased to sacrifice on the altar of God, appointed by the law: and, t 2. King. 16.16. having made a new one like to the altar of Damascus, he sacrificed upon it. Whereby he defiled himself and the land with rebellion against the Lord. Hart. I say that Urias did err in doing so. But we may refute this reason of yours by denying that Urias did succeed Aaron, and was of the tribe of Levi. Rainoldes. In deed u Hosius contr. Brent. lib. 2. a Cardinal answereth that you may refute it so in one word. And that is showed plainly enough (as he saith) by those words of scripture which are written of jeroboam; 1. King. 12.31. He made Chapels in high places, and Priests of the lowest of the people, who were not of the sons of Levi. But this refutation is as fit against our reason of Urias: as if a man should say that Bishops in England are not Protestants, because the Bishops of France are Papists. For, the Priests, which jeroboam made of the lowest of the people not of the sons of Levi, were in the kingdom of Israel, at Bethel and Dan: and Urias was Priest in the temple at jerusalem, in the kingdom of juda. The thing is apparent by y For jeroboams Priests, 1. King. 12.29. For Urias, 2. King. 16.2. the very course and text of the scripture. And z The jews in S●der Olamzuta Lira comment. in 4. Reg. 16. Nicephor. hist eccles. lib. 2. cap. 4. Genebrard. Chronogr. lib. 1. Sig●●ius de rep. Hebraeorum lib. 5. c. 2. they, who would save the Priesthood most gladly from the shameful stain, agree that he was high Priest, the successor of Aaron. Hart. Let it be admitted that he was so. The stain of his fault is not so foul as you make it. For what did he else, but that which we read Pope Marcellinus to have done? Who, in the horrible persecution of Christians under Maximian and Diocletian, took incense for fear, and offered it to Idols. Urias did transgress the law of God, not wilfully, but through the frailty of the flesh: not of his own accord, but by the king's commandment. Wherefore it came rather of fear, then of rashness or ignorance, that he offended. Rainoldes. So did it a Mat. 26.70. in Peter, that he denied Christ. And may you therefore say, that Peter was privileged not to deny Christ? I marvel that you feel not the grossness of your dealing. You say that high Priests are privileged by their office to persevere in true doctrine. It is showed, that they fall to manifest Idolatry. You grant they do so: but they do it for fear, you say. Where is the privilege then? For God, to whom so ever he giveth any benefit as it were by privilege: he giveth them a privilege withal of special favour to free them from the lets that might debar them of the benefit. b 2. King. ●0. ver. 1. Ezekias was sick of a pestilent disease, whereof he should have died. c ver. 6. God did add fifteen years to his life. d ver. ●. He took away his sickness, that he might enjoy it. S. e Act. 27. ver. 20. Paul was in danger to be lost with shipwreck, and all the rest who sailed with him. f ver. 24. God did give to him his own life, and theirs. g ver. 43. He kept them all from danger and brought them safe unto the land. Wherefore if God had given a privilege of true doctrine to the high Priests, he would have given them a privilege of grace too, that no deceit of flesh should make them fall away from it. But they might fall away from it by sundry means, to error, yea to Idolatry. For if they might for fear, why not for love also, h 1. King. 1ST as Solomon did? If for love: why not for hope? If for hope: why not for hatred? If for any of these, why not for other causes? It remaineth therefore, that either the high Priests had not that privilege: or, if they had it, they had it with exception, that they should not err, unless either fear, or other cause did move them to it. Which if you affirm of Popes in like sort, as you seem to do by the example of Marcellinus: I will agree with you. For I am persuaded that no Pope can err, unless he be moved thereto by some cause, either blindness of mind, or lewdness of heart, or such human affections. i Nihil in terra sine causa fit. job. 5.6. Nothing in the earth is done without a cause, saith your old translation. Howbeit, for Urias, perhaps you do him injury to say that he offended as Marcellinus did, of fear. For it appeareth not by circumstances of the text, but that he was as willing to transgress the law, as was the king to bid him. k 2. King. 16. ver. 10. When king Achaz saw the altar that was at Damascus, he sent to Urias the Priest the pattern of the altar and the fashion of it, and all the workmanship thereof. And Urias the Priest made an altar, in all points according as king Achaz had sent from Damascus: so did Urias the Priest against king Achaz came from Damascus. What a ready mind was here in the Priest, who stayed not to speak with the king at his return, to dissuade him from it: but made the heathenish altar, against he came from Damascus? l And king Achaz commanded Urias the Priest, saying, upon this great altar, set on fire the morning burnt-offring and evening meat-offring, and the kings burned offering and his meat-offring, with the burnt-offring of all the people of the land, and their meat-offring, and their drinke-offrings: and sprinkle upon it all the blood of the burnt-offring, and all the blood of the sacrifice. As for the brazen altar, it shall be for me to inquire. And Urias did according to all that king Achaz had commanded. Behold, as Moses was faithful in all the house of the Lord: so was Urias the Priest in all that Achaz did command. Such a Prince, such a Priest. Hart. Great was the privilege of the high Priesthood, and chair of Moses, in the old law. Yet nothing like the Churches & Peter's prerogative. Wherefore howsoever Urias did offend: The Pope cannot fall away from the faith. For m Damasus in Pontificali. even Marcellinus himself, who did commit idolatry for fear of death, yet repent afterward and shed his blood for Christ. Rainoldes. But in the mean season he did commit idolatry by your own confession. So that, this example must force you to yield that the Pope may err, though not abide in error. Hart. Nay rather, that he cannot teach error, though he may err. As Pope Marcellinus, though he did commit, he did not teach idolatry. Rainoldes. Yes, he did teach it, by committing it. For, to teach, is to deliver the things that one knoweth, to him, who knoweth them not. The which that we may receive, that is, learn, God hath given us two senses: the hearing, and the sight. We hear words: we see deeds. The ministers of Christ, whom he hath ordained to teach the wisdom of his Father, the way to life eternal, aught to teach by both: that men may be edified by their words, which they hear; and by their deeds, which they see. Therefore S. Paul requireth in n Tim. 4.12. Timothee, in o Tit. 2.7. Titus, and in p 1. Tim. 3.2. Tit. 1.7. all Bishops, that both their life be good, and their doctrine sound. And himself had ranns this race so before them, that, when he exhorted the Philippians to do whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, worthy love, and of good report: he was able to say, that by his preaching and living they had learned them; q Phil. 4. 9· which things you have heard and you have seen in me. Yea, it is so forcible to teach by living well: that In act. Aposto●or. hom. 30. Chrysostom (commending S. Paul in that point) preferreth it before the other. It is very easy (saith he) to teach by words. Teach me by thy life. This is the best teaching. For words do not so stick unto the mind, as works. And if thy work be not good, thou shalt not only not profit, but also hurt more by speaking, and it were better to hold thy peace. Why? Because thou showest me the work so, as if it could not be done. For I think with myself, if thou who speakest so great things, dost them not: much more am I to be excused, who speak no such thing. Therefore saith the Prophet, * Psal. 50.16. unto the wicked man saith God, why takest thou upon thee to declare my ordinances? For this is greater harm, when a man teacheth well in words, and fighteth against it with his works. Thus you may see that Bishops do teach by their life, not by their preaching only. Wherefore, though Marcellinus the Pope did not teach idolatry by word: yet by his fact he did. And so your answer falleth that he did commit, but not teach idolatry. Hart. I grant that he did teach it after a sort: The fourth division. but not as I meant. I meant he taught it not by preaching. In that he could not err. For as I said before, that the Pope in respect of his person may err, not in respect of his office: so I say farther, that his office privilegeth him in his sayings, not in his doings. s Matt. 23.2. The Scribes and the Pharises (saith our Saviour Christ) do sit upon the chair of Moses. All things therefore, whatsoever they shall say unto you, observe ye, and do ye. But according to their works do ye not. For they say and do not. Rainoldes. What? will you also make odious comparisons of Popes to Scribes and Pharises? Hart. O, I touch you now: and therefore you would interrupt me. In deed that sentence of Christ doth confound you: no marvel you are loath to hear it. For were the Popes never so evil, even monsters, as t Do vitis Pont.. in Benedicto. quart, & Christophor. prim. Platina doth call some few of them, and they might be so for their lives: yet they were not worse than the Scribes and Pharises. Rainoldes. Believe me, but they were. Beware of Pope john. All the Scribes and Pharises might cast their caps at him. He was a peerless monster. Hart. You are ever interrupting, to put me from my argument. Rainoldes. I cannot abide, that you should detract from the Popes. Nay, yet give them their due. It is a fault (they say) to belie the devil. Hart. If some of them were worse than the Scribes and Pharises: my argument will hold yet. For (as D. u Princip. doctrinal. l. 5. c. 9 Stapleton noteth out of x De ●erbi▪ Domini se●m. 49. Austin, Christ, when he said of the Scribes and Pharises, They sit upon the chair of Moses, meant not them alone, as though he sent Christians to the school of the jews to learn religion there: but by the name of Scribes and Pharises he signified, that certain in his Church would say and not do; and by the person of Moses he signified himself, for Moses was a figure of him. In like sort S. y In johannem homil. 85. Chrysostom and z In Ezech. hom. 7. Origen expound it too. He chargeth us therefore, to hear wicked preachers, professing God with their words, but denying him in their deeds: All things (saith he) whatsoever they shall say unto you, observe ye and do ye. Now the cause and reason thereof is given in this, because they sit upon the chair, 1 As D. Stapleton expoundeth it, Quia super cathe●●am sedent: quia locú Christi tenent. because they hold the room of Christ, as Scribes and Pharises did of Moses. For so doth our Saviour reason as it were: They sit upon the chair; therefore, that which they say must be observed, and done. a Epist. 166. in ●ine. S. Austin handling these words hath excellently noted it. Christ (saith he) hath made his people secure concerning wicked Prelates, that men should not for their sakes forsake the chair of wholesome doctrine, in which even they who be wicked, are constrained to speak good things. And why are they constrained? For (saith he) they be not their own things, but the things of God, which they speak. And how may this be? Because (saith he) in the chair of unity, God hath set the doctrine of truth. And by what words hath he set it? or where? He addeth: Therefore of Prelates, who do their own evil things and speak the good things of God, he saith in the gospel, Do that they say, but do not that they do, for they say and do not. Thus saith Austin. In the same sense are these words expounded both by b Epist. 137. De verbis Domin. serm. 49. Tractat. in joh. 46. lib. de pastorib. cap. 10. Austin himself again, and by c In joh. hom. 85. Chrysostom, and by d In Ezech. hom. 7. Origen: whose words I pass over for brevities sake. Wherefore to conclude, in despite of heretics, a sure undoubted certainty of doctrine and faith is no less knit to the chair of Christ, then to the chair of Moses, 2 Ipsi successioni Apostolicae, non minus quám Aaronic● to the very succession of the Apostles then of Aaron: nay rather much more, by how much e Heb. 8.6. the new testament is established on better promises then the old. Mark therefore Christ's words: observe ye, and do ye. For 3 Dogmata fidei seruamus: praecepta mor●● facimus. we observe points of faith: we do precepts of manners. In them both we must be obedient even to Pharises, that is, to wicked men and hypocrites, sitting in the chair, that is, 4 Succedentibus in sede ● Apostolorum. succeeding into the seat of the Apostles, or Christ. Moreover, mark the word, observe, that is to keep those things which they command to be observed: 5 Non alia doce●t quám quae servanda sunt. because they teach not other things but such as are to be observed. And in this respect doth Christ allow of them. For so the Pharises also themselves, though they were wicked men and hypocrites, yet (as f In Matthaeum homil. 73. Chrysostom noteth) they did not preach their own things, but those things which God had commanded by Moses. And therefore sith Christ could not commend them for their manners, he doth it for his chair & doctrine. Wherefore 6 Qui cathedram tenet Apostolicam. he that sittteth in the chair of the Apostles, doth speak not of himself, but of the chair; that is, not his own things, but the things of God: and therefore must be heard whether he say and do both, or only say, and not do. Hence it is, that g Contr. literas Petilian. l. 2. c. ●● Austin saith against Petilian: Neither for the Pharises did our Lord command the chair of Moses to be forsaken: in which chair verily he figured his own. For he warneth the people to do that which they ●ay, and not to do that which they do: that the holiness of the chair be not forsaken, nor the unity of the flock divided, for the naughty Pastors. Do you see how much the Father's attribute to the chair? You were in ha●te erewhile to interrupt my argument. Now what say you to it? Rainoldes. Your argument is handsome a far off, at first sight. But if a man come near it, and view it, and feel it: he cannot choose but grow in great mislike of it; it is so misshapen. h Libr. de reprehends. Sophistar. Aristotle compareth the arguments of Sophisters to weak ill-featured persons: who by stuffing out and tricking up themselves, do seem to be of strong and comely plight of body. The most of your Doctor's arguments be such: and this is one of them. It seemeth strong, and comely, as you do bombast it with fancies of your own, and deck it with the names of Austin, Chrysostom, and Origen. But strip it out of this apparel, and all the limbs of it are full of sores and blisters, worse than the French evil. Hart. This is a spiteful speech, and a malicious slander. But you keep your wont. Rainoldes. If I speak untruly, convince me of untruth. If not: why use you these reproaches? This was your argument out of Doctor Stapleton▪ if you will give me leave to strip it. The Scribes and the Pharises were to be obeyed in all things which they said, because they sat in the chair of Moses, that is, Successioni Aaronicae. they did succeed Aaron. The Popes, (howsoever they live,) do sit in Christ's chair, that is, 4 S●cce●entibu● in sedem Apo●●olorum. they are successors of the Apostles: which hath a greater prerogative. The Popes must be therefore obeyed much more in all things which they say. But men might not obey them, if they should err. Therefore they cannot err in any thing they say. Was not this the very body of your argument? Hart. It was so, in substance: and what fault find you with it? Rainoldes. None, but (as I said) that all the limbs of it are full of sores and blisters. For the first proposition (the contagion whereof infecteth the whole argument) hath two notorious faults touching the Scribes and Pharises: one, that by their sitting in the chair of Moses, is meant that they succeeded Aaron: an other, that, because they succeeded Aaron, they were to be obeyed in all things which they said. Hart. What? did not the Pharises and Scribes succeed Aaron? Rainoldes. That is not the question. Yet you may doubt of that too. And how do you prove it? Hart. Nay, how do you disprove it? Rainoldes. None succeeded Aaron, in offering sacrifices to God, and teaching Israel his law, saving i Deut. 33.10. the tribe of Levi. But the Pharises might be of other tribes: and were so. Hart. How prove you that? Rainoldes. S. Paul was k Phil. 3.5. of the tribe of Benjamin, an Ebrue borne of Ebrues, according to the law a Pharisee. So was l Act 23.6. his father too. And if the tribes of all, of whom account was made that way, had been registered: it would be as easily proved of others, as it is of Benjamin. For whereas there were three sects among the jews, each differing from other in points of religion, Pharises, Sadduces, and Esses: the m Philo judaeus, quód quisque bonus sit liber: &, De vita contemplativa. Esses avoiding the company of other men, lest they should stain their manners, and living with themselves alone (like to moonkes,) did leave the Temple & cities to Pharises & Sadduces. The n joseph. antiquit▪ Iudaicar. l. 18. c. 2. Sadduces were few, & their opinions wicked: in so much, that even the common people did detest them. The Pharises in number more, in reputation greater, and o Act. 23.8. sounder in belief: p Act. 2.6.5. the most exact sect, and q Act. 22.3. coming nearest to the law. Which r joseph. de bello jud. l. 2. c. 7. & l. 1. c. 4. Antiq. judaic. l. 18. cap. ●. they expounded in such exact manner, and seemed holy withal: that they bore the sway for religion amongst the multitude; yea, cities flowed unto them, accounting them the best both in life and doctrine. Wherefore sith the Pharises were so well esteemed, & did swarm in jury: it is not to be thought, but that other tribes had some of that profession, chiefly the tribe of juda. Hart. If juda, if Benjamin, if other tribes had of them: much more by all likelihood had the tribe of Levi. And them might our Saviour specially mean, not generally all, in saying, The Pharises do sit upon the chair of Moses. As, if I should say that the Catholics sit upon the chair of Christ: you must not think I mean of Catholics who be scholars, but of Catholics who be teachers; of Catholic Priests, and Bishops. Rainoldes. Your answer hath reason. For s Act. 22. ●. as S. Paul was a Pharise-scholer; so was Gamaliel a Pharise-teacher. And, that there were Pharises of the Priests & Levites, the scripture showeth, saying, that t joh. 1. ver. 1●. the jews sent Priests and Levites from jerusalem to talk with john Baptist: and u ver. 24. they who were sent, were of the Pharises. Wherefore, that the Pharises did succeed Aaron: the likelihood is great. That the Scribes: greater. For, they x Mat. 7.29. expounded & taught the law of God, (whence they were also called now y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Luc. 5.17. Doctors of the law, now z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Luk. 7.30. Lawyers) by duty and office. Whereupon, when Herode desired to know where Christ should be borne: a Matt. 2.4. he gathered together all the chief Priests and Scribes of the people to learn it of them. It is most likely then, that they succeeded Aaron too: as did their predecessor Ezra b Ezr. 7.6. the Scribe, prompt in the law of Moses. Yet your Doctor c Chronograph●ae lib. 2. Genebrard saith, that the Scribes were lightly of the tribe of Simeon: and they with the Pharises are said to have sat in the chair of Moses, as who had thrust themselves into it being empty, while the Priests abusing the riches of the Church did forsake their duty. Hart. If Genebrard, or any other of our Doctors, have a conceit of his own: what is that to me? I follow the received sentence of the Church, that the Scribes and Pharises came into the chair of Moses by succession, and not by intrusion. But why do you, agreeing with me in this point, reprove it in my argument? Rainoldes. I reproved it not. The point which I reproved, was that you expounded the words of Christ so: They sat in 2 ●●thed●ae Mo●sis, succes●io●i Aaronic●. the chair of Moses, that is, they did succeed Aaron. Which exposition is erroneous, and very dangerous to the truth: though the danger of it not so apparent in itself, as in the consequent. For it is the mother of a greater error. Hart. And how would you have it expounded, I pray? Rainoldes. According to the word and meaning of Christ. The Scribes and the Pharises sit in the chair of Moses: that is, they teach the law of Moses. For as d Deut. 5.31. & 6.1. Moses himself received it of God to teach it the children of Israel, and he did so: in like sort e Nehem. 8.8. the Priests and Levites after him were used to read it in the assemblies of the people, and to expound it. To this end their synagogues were built in every city, and every Sabbat day they met there, as it is written, f Act. 15.21. Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him being read in the Synagogues every Sabbat day. Now they, who did teach, were wont to teach sitting: which appeareth by our saviours example g Mat. 26.25. joh. 8.2. in the temple, h Luc. 4.20. in the synagogues, i Mat. 5.1. Luc. 5.3. in other places. Wherefore the Scribes and Pharises (of whom there were some k Luc. 5.17. in every town of Galilee, and jury, and jerusalem, to discharge this duty) are said to have * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. sat in the seat of Moses (or chair, as we term it) because they did teach the same which Moses did, even the law of God delivered to Moses. Hart. The matter is not great, whether you expound it thus or as we do. Rainoldes. Yes. For it followeth of your exposition that the Scribes and Pharises said well in all things which they said, because they did succeed Aaron: and so, that 2 Successioni adiuncta fidei & doctrinae indu●●tata firmit●●. succession (which is the mark you shoot at) hath certainty of doctrine and faith knit unto it. Whereas the right lesson, which you should gather thence, is, that the Scribes and Pharises said well in all things which they said out of the word of God▪ and so that God's word is simply true and certain; but men ordained to teach it must be heard no farther th●n they agree with it. And this might D. Stapleton have learned of the same Fathers whom he cited▪ but that he rather readeth them to maintain a faction, then to learn the truth. For Austin doth interpret the chair, not of succession, but l Augustin. epis●. 166. in sine. of wholesome doctrine, in the which they sit, who speak the good things of God: &, m Tractat. in johann. ●6. and so in all the places quoted by D. Stapleton. we are willed to hear God speaking by them, when we are willed to do the things which they say. For in sitting on Moses chair, they teach the law of God▪ therefore by them God doth teach. But if they would teach their own things, (saith Austin) hear them not, obey them not. So doth n In Matthaeum hom. 73. Chrysostom expound it, Do all things which the Scribes and Pharises say you must do: for they preach not their own things, but the things which God commanded by Moses. So doth o In Ezekiel. hom. 7. Origen apply it to them who teach the faith aright: with a special clause, that Christians, if they see a preacher live ill, and have not to charge him with teaching ill doctrine; they must frame their lives according to his words not deeds. If they have not to charge him with teaching ill doctrine: as if he should say, that who soever teach ill doctrine, they sit not in the chair of Moses. Let them succeed Aaron never so directly▪ yet if their doctrine be ill, they sit not in the chair of Moses. Whereby you may see the wretched state of that argument of which you made so great vaunt. For the first proposition, that the Scribes and Pharises were to be obeyed in all things which they said, because they sat in the chair of Moses, that is, they did succeed Aaron: is foully corrupted in the point of succession. The second, that the Popes do sit in Christ's chair, that is, they are successors of the Apostles: is tainted with the same●canker that the first. The conclusion therefore, that men must obey the Popes in all things which they say; and the consequent thereof, that they cannot err in any thing they say: are children like their parents, as sound as the propositions of which they are begotten. The filthiness of all the which if yet you see not▪ behold an other light to see it by. The Scribes, amongst the jews, were as the Canonists are with you; the Pharises, as the Schoolmen: your p Chronogr. lib. ●. Genebrard doth match them so. Or, if you like not his judgement therein, because Schoolmen and Canonists say not true in all things: yet this you must grant that Priests are with you, as Scribes and Pharises were with them. For q In Ioh●n. hom. 85. Chrysostom saith, (they be the very words which you did pass over for brevities sake:) we must not say now, In the chair of Moses, but, in the chair of Christ do the Priests sit: for they have received his doctrine. Which point (unless your former argument were nought) will prove that 1 Quia super ●a●hedram sedent, quia lo●um Christi tenent. Priests cannot err no more than Popes. For they, who sit in Christ's chair, have greater prerogative than they who sat in the chair of Moses: Priests, than Scribes and Pharises. The Scribes and the Pharises were to be obeyed in all things which they said. The Priests must be therefore much more obeyed in all things. But if they should err, than ought they not to be obeyed. Therefore they cannot err in any thing they say. Acknowledge you the form of your own argument? Doth not the conclusion follow as necessarily here, as there? And think you (M. Hart) that Priests cannot err? Think you that yourself are of this perfection? that we ought to obey, both you, and your companions, in all things which you say? Or if you think not so fond of them, so proudly of yourself, as (I hope) you do not: then leave Doctor Stapletons' exposition, which inferreth it; which he patcheth up with the words of Austin, Chrysostom, and Origen, whereas not one of them meant it. Yield rather (if you be wedded to Doctors of your own side) unto their authority, than whom the Church of Rome hath none of greater knowledge and perfiter judgement for right interpreting of the scriptures: I mean, john Ferus, & Arias Montanus. Of whom r Ar. Montan. Elucidat. in Matt. 23. the one saith, that Christ taught his disciples to observe and do whatsoever the Scribes and the Pharises commanded * Ex praescripto legis, id est ex cathedra Mosis. by the prescript of the law, that is, out of the chair of Moses: s Io. Ferus comment. in Mart. lib. 3. the other, that he chargeth us to obey evil prelate's, yet withal he addeth how far we must obey them. Do ye (saith he) all things, which they shall say unto you: but he had told them first, they sit upon the chair of Moses. For Christ did not mean, that they should observe all the decrees of Pharises, but * Qua●enus le●● conso●arent. so far forth, as they agreed with the law. According whereunto, when he had showed before also, that t Mat. 15.5. they taught contrary to the law in some points: after certain things touched between, he added, u Mat. 16.6. Beware of the leaven of the Pharises. In like sort he said to the Apostles and their successors; x Luc. 10. 1●. He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me: and, y Mat●. 10. vers. 14. it shall be easier for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement, then for them, who shall not receive you and hear your words. But Matthew had set down before that Christ chose z vers. 1. twelve, whom he a vers. 2. & 5. called Apostles, and b vers. 7. charged them to preach the gospel. Whereby it appeareth that the Apostles must be heard, but so far forth as they be Apostles, that is, as they do Christ's work, and preach and teach the things which Christ commanded. But if they teach other things and contrary to Christ: then are they not Apostles now, but seducers, and therefore not to be heard. O the great light of truth: which forceth even the adversaries not only to perceive it, but also to reveal it often. So will it force you too: if you have so much grace as Ferus and Montanus had. Hart. So much grace, as to say, that if the Apostles teach things contrary to Christ, they are no Apostles now, but seducers. Do you allow that speech of Ferus? And might the Apostles be seducers? Rainoldes. Peter, an Apostle, might say unto Christ, (when he heard him speak of suffering at jerusalem,) c Matt. 1●. vers. 22. Master, pity thyself, this shall not be unto thee. And Christ would not therefore have called him d vers. 22. Satan, had he not thought him a seducer. Hart. But Christ did give them afterward e Act. 2.4. the holy ghost in greater abundance from heaven: when he sent them to preach unto all the world. Rainoldes. But Christ had told them before, that f Matt. 10.15. it should be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha, then for the city that should not hear their words. Yet Christ himself refused to hear the words of Peter. Wherefore the exposition of Ferus is good, that Christ meant those words, which he had willed them to preach, that is, the gospel. Beside that, Ferus speaketh not only of Apostles, but also of their successors. Now though the Apostles were privileged afterward by the special graces of the holy ghost to teach the truth in all things: yet Bishops, who succeeded them, have not that privilege. You must renounce therefore that erroneous exposition which knitteth an assured truth of faith and doctrine 2 Ipsi successioni Apo ●●olica. to the succession of the Apostles, and bindeth us in all things to obey 4 Suceedenubus in sedem Apostolorum. them who succeed into the seat of the Apostles, and saith that 6 O● cathedram tenet Apostolicam. he who sitteth in the chair of the Apostles, doth speak not his own things, but the things of God. For our Saviour meant, that the Scribes & Pharises ought to be obeyed in all things which they taught out of the law of God: not, that they c●uld not err in faith and doctrine, because 2 Successioni Aaronicae. they did succeed Aaron. Hart. I cannot conceive, but that he meant to clear their doctrine from error. For his words of doing that which they say, because they sit in the chair of Moses, are rather a warrant for them, in all things which they teach; then a restraint for others, how far they must obey them. Rainoldes. His words belong properly to the instruction of hearers: that they despise not the doctrine of God for the faults of teachers. So are they both a warrant, and a restraint by consequent. A warrant, for teachers to be obeyed in all things, which they shall say out of the law. A restraint, for hearers not to do those things whi●h the teachers say, if they shall teach against the law. As letters of credence given by Princes unto their ambassadors, do warrant them, for their commission; restrain them, if they go beyond it. Hart. But the commission here is general for all things that concern teachers. For Christ expressly s●ith: observe ye and do ye. Now, 3 Dogmata fidei seruamus. Praecepta morum facimus. we observe points of faith; we do precepts of manners. Wherefore, whatsoever the Scribes and Pharises taught either of faith, or manners: they were to be obeyed in it. Rainoldes. That were a pretty proof for your * Traditiones ●um ad fidem tum ad mores pertinentes. Conc. Trid. Sess. 4. traditions of both sorts, if it had ground in the text. But [to observe] and [do] are both referred by Christ to the same things: as he showeth by comprising them first in the one word, then in the other. All things whatsoever they say you must a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. observe, observe ye, and do ye: but after their works b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. do not: for they say, and do not. So it seemeth, that to fasten his lesson of obeying the commandments of God, which the Scribes and Pharises taught out of Moses, he doubleth (as it were) his stroke, by saying both c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. observe ye, and do ye. Wherein he might express and call to their remembrance that which he doth commend of Moses: who doubleth oft d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Deut. 4.6. & 7.12. & 16.12. & 26.16. & 28.13. the same words in urging of the same doctrine. To be short, e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the word which your exposition forceth to points of faith: Christ himself applieth it to precepts of manners, f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Matt. 19.17. keep the commandments. So pithy is the timber of which you frame your fancies. Though if we should take it all as very sound, and grant that Christ meant [observing] and [doing] of belief and life: your purpose is not proved thereby. For whether points of faith, or precepts of manners: he willeth Scribes and Pharises to be obeyed no farther, then in what they teach out of the chair of Moses. Hart. The words of our Saviour are a great deal larger. You straighten them, I know not how. All things whatsoever they shall say unto you, observe ye, and do ye: mark, he saith all things. And he that saith all things, doth except nothing. You except many. Rainoldes. The Lord did command the people of Israel to repair in causes of difficulty and doubt to the Priests and to the judge: and ask, and they shall show thee the sentence of judgement; and g Deut. 17.10. thou shalt observe to do according unto all that they shall teach thee. These words [thou shalt observe to do according unto all that they shall teach thee,] the jews are accustomed to allege commonly, when they defend their fond traditions received of their Fathers. And h R. Selom. jarchi, in Deut. 17. Selomoh, a Rabbin whom they make great account off, doth gloze them with this note, Thou must not decline from that which they shall tell thee, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no not though they say that the right hand is the left, and the left hand is the right. A mighty spirit of error, that hath bewitched these men. But you and your Church do run apace after them. Perhaps you think you may be as bold for your Popes, as Rabbi Selomoh for their Priests. Hart. No sir. For I grant that Rabbi Selomoh speaketh foolishly. Which is plain by the place itself whereon he gloseth. For the scripture saith there: thou shalt do all that they shall teach thee; according to the law, or to * juxta legem eius. vulg. edit. his law, as we read it. Wherefore to do all that the Priests taught, is not meant of things ungodly or false, but only true and consonant to the law of God. Rainoldes. Even so the scripture sarth here: The Scribes and the Pharises do sit in the chair of Moses; all things therefore whatsoever they say you must observe, observe ye and do ye. Wherein the word [therefore] restraineth all things to that which they teach in the chair of Moses: that is, (as I have showed,) out of the law of God. So that (by your leave) the dream of the jews is as wise as yours, in this point of all. And as you say to us, so may they to you: he that saith all things, doth except nothing. You except many. Hart. Nay, I except nothing of all which the Scribes and the Pharises teach. For Christ (as I said) requireth all those things to be observed which they teach: because 5 Non alia docent quám quae servanda sunt. they teach not other things but such as are to be observed. Rainoldes. But if they taught any thing against the law of God: I trust you will except that, and grant that all was not to be observed which they taught. Hart. If they taught any thing against the law: I grant. But I deny that they taught any thing against it: yea, or could teach. Rainoldes. And why do you deny it? Hart. Because Christ saith of them, they sit upon the chair of Moses. Whereby (to take your own exposition,) he meant, they teach as Moses did. Now, if they taught as Moses: then taught they not against the law; neither could they. For if they could teach against the law of God: then might that be false which was meant by Christ, that they teach as Moses. Rainoldes. That reason holdeth not. For many speak the truth, who can lie, if need be: and many speak the truth in some things, who in all things do not. Christ respecteth that which the Scribes and Pharises did ordinarily: they read the law in the Synagogues; they willed the people to observe it; yea, in outward things, as ceremonies, tithes, purifyings, and sabbats, they did exact it most straightly. But as Paul said unto the high Priest, i Act. 23.3. thou sittest to judge me according to the law, and dost thou command me to be smitten against the law? so did they some times teach against the law, when they should teach according to it. And hereof is proof made by Christ himself: who therefore willed his disciples to beware of k Mat. 16. vers. 6. the leaven, that is, l vers. 12. the doctrine of the Pharises. Hart. Then belike they sat not upon the chair of Moses, at some times when they taught. Rainoldes. True: but clean beside it, upon a stool of their own. For Moses m joh. 5.46. wrote of Christ, and n Rom. 10.4. Christ is the end of his law. But o joh. 7.48. & 8.13. & 9.22. & 12.42. they refused Christ, and taught the people so to do. p Luc. 6.7. They watched him of purpose, that they might find matter of accusation against him. q The Scribes: Mar. 3.22. The Pharises: Matt. 12.24. They pronounced of him, that he cast out devils by the Prince of devils. r Mar. 14.64. They condemned him as guilty of death. s Luc. 23.2. They said that they had found him a man perverting the nation, forbidding to pay tribute to Caesar. They slanderously accused the just: they did blaspheme the God of glory: they put to death the Lord of life. t Matt. 23.13. They neither entered themselves into the kingdom of heaven, nor suffered others to enter in. Hart. I grant that in the person of Christ they did err: but they did not err in expounding the law. For when they were demanded where Christ should be borne, u Matt. 2.5. they said, at Bethleem in judaea: and they said well. But because x Luc. 1.26. & 2.4. the virgin Marie and joseph dwelled at Nazareth in Galilee, before he was borne, and y Matt. 2.23. there he lived with them after, in so much that he was called jesus of Nazareth: z joh. 7. vers. 41.41. & ●2. they thought he had been borne there, not at Bethleem; and so they were deceived, and did not know him to be Christ. Rainoldes. Yet this is the substance of the word of life: not that there shallbe a Christ, which the jews believe till this day; but that jesus of Nazareth, whom they crucified, was that Christ. The Scribes and the Pharises said, he was not. Ought the jews herein to believe, as they said? If you think that they ought: no marvel if you hold, that we must do as Popes say. If you think, they ought not: then the Scribes and Pharises did err in some thing that they taught. As for that you answer, they erred in Christ's person, not in expounding the law: it is a mere cavil. For we speak in general of the chair of Moses, that is, of his doctrine. They erred in expounding the doctrine of Moses, when they denied to Christ the things which Moses wrote of him. Howbeit that it is false too, that they erred not in expounding the law. For whereas a Ro. 7. vers. 12. the law is holy and b vers. 14. spiritual, requiring perfect righteousness c Matt. 22.37.1 Deut. 6.5. levit ●7. ●8. not only in the outward actions of the body, but also in the in ward affections of the mind: the Scribes and the Pharises taught that the affection is no transgression of the law, so that a man refrain from the action of doing evil. As, for example, it is said in the law, Thou shalt not kill. This commandment d Mat. 5. ver. 21. they tied to the act of murder, and glossed thus upon it; whosoever killeth shall be culpable of judgement: as though it bridled only the hand, and not the heart. In like sort e ver. 27. they expounded, Thou shalt not commit adultery: as if it were enough to keep the flesh chaste, the soul defiled with uncleanness. But our Saviour teacheth them an other lesson: that, howsoever they pretend f ver. 21. & 27. antiquity for their gloss, yet wrath, malice, lust, even the very affections of murder and adultery do break the commandments, and not the outward deeds only. The rest of their perverse expositions I pass over. g ver. 43. The last may serve for all. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, as thyself, saith the law. Wherein, the word [ * Heb. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of a verb that signifieth to join and consociate. neighbour] doth signify, as you would say, one that is joined to us, as all men are, some more, some less, but all in a natural bond of humanity. The very light of nature hath taught the heathens so much: who 1 Cicero de officiis lib. 1. saw that certain duties are due from all men, each to other, through this conjunction of mankind, and so 2 Aeschines in orat. contr. C●e ●ip. Aristot. Rhetor. ad Theodect. l. 2. have likewise used the name of [neighbours] generally for all other men; as h Luc. 10.30. it is meant in this commandment, Thou shalt love thy neighbour. But the Scribes & Pharises, thinking that [a neighbour] doth signify a friend, who beareth us good will, and him we ought to love: did thereupon gather and gloze of the contrary, And thou shalt hate thine enemy. Which interpretation of the law is lewd: and showeth that they were grossly blind in expounding it. Wherefore our Saviour reproving their corruptions in this and other of their doctrines, doth say to his disciples: i Matt. 5 20. Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharises, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Hart. Our Saviour might speak these words of their lives, and not of their doctrines because they were wont to say, and not to do. As for the points which you say were gloss of the Scribes and Pharises: some of the Fathers take them to be the law of Moses itself, corrected, and supplied, or rather perfited by Christ. So doth S. k In Matthaeum hom. 16.17. & 18. Homil. 10. in opere imperfect. Chrysostom compare the one with the other, as the old law with the new: and saith that the commandments of Moses are easy, refrain from murder and adultery; but the commandments of Christ hard, refrain from wrath and lust. So doth S. l De sermone Domini in monte l. 1. c. 9.12.17.19. & 21. Austin seem to have thought also. Rainoldes. They thought so, (I grant,) good men, and well meaning, abused by the craft of the Scribes and Pharises: who, to win the people thereby the more easily unto their opinions, did utter them in Moses words, though with an other sense than Moses. As, that which m Leu. 19.12. Num. 30.3. he meant of lawful oaths, and vows; n Mat. 5.33. they turned it to unlawful: o Exod. 21.24. of punishment by public judgement; p Mat. 5.38. they turned it to private revengement. But this shift of theirs, (which Christ doth but allude unto, as notorious,) did carry S. q De Serm. Dom. in mont. l. 1. c. 21. Austin away with such a prejudice: that he thought this also to be written in the law, (because * Matt. 5.43. it cometh in, as the rest,) Thou shalt hate thine enemy; whereas the law r Exod. 23.4. commandeth men to love their enemies, and to do them good. The less marvel is it, if he were deceived in the former points. In the which yet afterward he saw his error and corrected it. For, when the Manichees, who condemned the God of the old Testament as contrary to the new, did reason out of this place that Christ reproveth sundry points in the law of Moses: s Augustin. contr. Faust. Manich. lib. 19 cap. 23. he answered that Christ reproveth not the law, but them who mistook it, who thought that the forbidding of murder and adultery did touch, not the affections and lusts, but acts only. And though it came not then into his mind neither, that the law saith not, Thou shalt hate thine enemy: t cap. 24. yet he considered, that it could not otherwise be meant in the old Testament, then, as in the new we must hate our enemies, or rather Gods enemies, hate u Reu. 2.6. Augustin. in Psal. 138. their vices, not their persons. S. Chrysostom in this point slipped not so much. For x He saith the speech is lewd, and the thing unjust. In Matth. hom. 13. in opere imperfect. his words thereof be such, that it seemeth not, he thought it written in the law. If in the rest he did not retract, as Austin did: he had not the Manichees to sharpen him, as Austin had. Their folly would have made him wiser. At least, what soever the Fathers thought therein: it is certain that Christ reproved not the law of God, but the gloss of men upon it. Which the newer writers, even of y Arias Montanus & johannes Ferus in Mat. 5. your own, acknowledge: yea, z In exposit. praecepti, Non occides. the Catechism of Trent too. And one, a Nic. Lira in Matt. 5. & Exod. 20. a jew by offspring, converted to the Christian faith, doth note out of the writings of an b joseph. antiquit. jud. l. 12. c. 23. ancient jew, who lived about the time of Christ, that the jews thought the outward deeds only, and not the motions of the mind to be forbidden by the commandments. Wherefore in that you say, that Christ, when he taught that his disciples righteousness ought to exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharises, might speak that of their lives, and not of their doctrines: you say well of the one side, but not of the other. For he meant it of both. Which appeareth by this, that he therein giveth a reason of his former speech, as the word [for] doth show: c Matt. 5. ver. 20. for I say unto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharises, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Now the former speech was, that d ver. 19 who soever shall break one of these least commandments, and teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, that is, he shall be none in it. The Scribes and Pharises therefore, men famous for their righteousness, who counted these commandments (mentioned by Christ) lest, that is, they made no count of them, as thinking wrath, and malice, and lust, no transgressions; are noted to have offended not only in breaking them, but in teaching so too. And how did they teach so, but (as Christ declareth) by misexpounding the law? Therefore in expounding the law they did err. Hart. They did err, after a sort: yet mark withal, how. They taught that the actions of muther and adultery are forbidden by the law: but they taught not that the affections are forbidden. This was in deed to teach less than the law▪ but not to teach against the law. Yea, to hate their enemies was after a sort also commanded in the law. For when God sent the children of Israel into the land of Canaan, e Num. 33.52. he charged them to cast out all the inhabitants of that land. Now those inhabitants were f Deut. 6.19. their enemies: and of these enemies God saith, g Deut. 7.2. Thou shalt utterly destroy them, thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor have compassion upon them. Behold, they must destroy them. Was this to hate them, or no? Rainoldes. It was to kill them, I am sure. And so, by your reason, the law commanded men to kill their enemies also, not to hate them only. But in truth they were not charged to hate them, though they were charged to destroy them. For, the inhabitants of the land of Canaan whom God did will them to destroy, the Hittites, and Amorites, and jebusites, and the re●t, were destroyed h Deut. 9.5. for their wickedness, i Deut. 18.11. their idolatries, their sorceries, k Leu. 18.24. and other horrible abominations. It was a punishment then and judgement of God, which the Israelites did execute in putting them to death. Now, to punish the wicked, is to do them good, For (as natural reason taught l Plat. in Gorgia. a Philosopher) vices in the mind, are, as diseases in the body; and punishments, as medicines. So that, as for a sick man to drink a bitter potion, or to be lanced, or seared, it is good, though it be grievous: in like sort, to be punished, is for a lewd person. Therefore when the Israelites did punish and destroy the inhabitants of Canaan: they did not hate them in so doing; at least they were not charged to hate them. For, to hate a man, is to wish him evil. To punish an offender, is to do him good. The charge of the Israelites was that they should punish them. In that they were therefore charged to destroy them, they were not charged to hate them. And this is yet plainer by the new Testament. Where, though m Mat. 5.44. we be charged to hate no man living, but to love all: yet n Rom. 13.4. the sword is left to execute vengeance on him that doth evil. Wherefore (to return unto the point in question) when the Scribes and Pharises made that wicked gloze, Thou shalt hate thine enemy: they taught against the law. And so did they too, when they taught, that evil and sinful affections are not forbidden by the law. You say they taught less therein then the law, but they taught not against it. I say, they taught against it, because they taught less. For it is written, o Deut. 4. ●. ye shall not add unto it, nor shall ye take from it. To do less than it willeth, is to take from it. To take from it, is to break it. p Matt 5.19. To break it, and to teach so, was the fault of the Scribes & Pharises. Howbeit, if you think them not yet sufficiently convicted: you shall hear a farther & manifester proof, which is without all exception. In the law of Moses God hath commanded, q Exod. 20.12. Honour thy father and thy mother▪ where the word [honour] containeth all duties of service, love, and awe, which children own unto their parents. The jews, as they were prone to make ungodly vows, 1 Philo judaeus de specialibus legibus: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. so this was an usual kind of vow amongst them, and they would bind it with an oath, that such or such a man should have no profit by them. The oath, which they used herein, as most solemn, was, By the gift, or offering. For so they were instructed Hart. It was proper to 1 Sacerdotum 〈◊〉 proprium. the Priests to sit upon the chair of Moses. But the Scribes▪ Rainoldes. That is false first. It was not proper to the Priests, but common to them with the Levites: as i Deut. 33.10. the words of Moses compared with k Nehem. 8.8. their practice show. Hart. Perhaps by [the Priests] he meaneth the Priestly tribe, the tribe of Levi. And so I take his words. Then it was proper to that tribe to sit upon the chair of Moses. But 2 Neque Scribae ne que Pharisaei erant necessario de genere sacerdotum. the Scribes and Pharises were not of that tribe necessarily: for they might be of other tribes. Rainoldes. But the Scribes and Pharises were not of that tribe necessarily. Therefore they were not of that tribe. Is this the Doctor's reason? As if a man should say, M. Doctor Genebrard doth not speak the truth necessarily (for he can lie some times:) therefore he speaketh not the truth. Hart. Nay, my meaning is, that they were of other tribes, not only that they might be. Rainoldes. So is my meaning too, that he doth lie sometimes, not only that he can lie. Yet how doth he prove, that they were of other tribes? Hart. That the Pharises were; his proof needeth not: for you grant it yourself. That 3 Scribe feré erant de paupere triba Simeoni●. the Scribes were lightly of the poor tribe of Simeon, he proveth by two witnesses: the one, Rabbi Selomoh; the other, the Chaldee, upon the nine and fortieth chapter of Genesis. Rainoldes. He abuseth two witnesses. For he seemeth by the Chaldee, to mean the Chaldee Paraphrast: and the Chaldee Paraphrast hath not a word to that purpose. As for Rabbi Selomoh, he hath some such words: but D. Genebrard wresteth and depraveth them. For whereas the Rabbin saith, that 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 poor Scribes and such as taught little children, were not but of the tribe of Simeon: he maketh him to say, that Scribes for the most part were of the poor tribe of Simeon. In the which report he committeth two faults. One, that where his author doth speak of poor Scribes who taught little children, as scriveners do with us to write: he taketh it of great Scribes, who expounded the law to all the people, l Matt. 2.5. yea, to Princes. An other, that where his author saith, they were not but of the tribe of Simeon, which in the great Scribes would be clearly false (for Ezra m Ezr. 7. ver. 6. the Scribe was of the n ver. 5 tribe of Levi: he, to mend the bolt and make it fit for his bow, saith that they were * Ferè. lightly (or, for the most part) of the tribe of Simeon. So, what Rabbi Selomoh doth absolutely deny, that Doctor Genebrard tempereth with a qualification: and of these words, [the poor Scribes were of the tribe of Simeon;] he maketh these, [the Scribes were of the poor tribe of Simeon.] This is a pretty sleight, and such as is not common amongst the ancient Sophisters, whom o In Gorgia & Euthydem. Plato painteth out. But the Sorbonists do pass them. Yet is D. Genebrard to blame to play such tricks when he shall gain so little by them. For what if a Rabbin, a jew, who lived of late years, had said, that the Scribes were not of the levitical tribe? That nation is stricken with madness, and with blindness, and with astonishment of heart, since they have shut their eyes against p Mal. 4.2. the Sun of righteousness: and the plague which God did threaten them, is come upon them; q Deut. 28.29. Thou shalt grope at noon days, as the blind doth grope in darkness. The tokens hereof are rife in their Rabbins handling of the scriptures. Who (beside the filth of many other follies wherewith they do soil them) are wont in such places as they are coombred with, (though often plain and easy;) to piece out their gloss with brainsick dreams, and sottish fables. In Genesis it is prophesied of Simeon, and Levi, r Gen. 49.7. I will divide them in jacob, and scatter them in Israel. In josua it is showed how this prophecy was performed both in s Ios●. 19.1. Simeon, and t josu. 21.3. Levi Rabbi Selomoh, not perceiving it, surmised that the tribe of Simeon must be scattered in the same sort as was the tribe of Levi. Wherefore as the Levites were scattered throughout Israel, u Deut. 33.10. to teach the whole Church: so he had a fancy that the Simeonites were to teach little children. With this he did travel, and he brought it forth: he thought it might be; he liked it should be; he wrote it was so. Wherefore, if Rabbi Selomoh had meant the same Scribes of whom our Saviour spoke: his credit is too poor to witness what they were, who lived a thousand years before him, unless he prove it better. But that the Pharises were of other tribes and not of Levi only: D. Genebrard proveth (you say) and I grant it. True. And I grant farther (which x Chronog. lib. 2 Phar●s●● erant Catholici. he proveth too) that they were Catholics. But yourself did tell me that if you should say, that the Catholics sit upon the chair of Christ, I must not think you mean of Catholics who be scholars, but of Catholics who be teachers; of Catholic Priests, and Bishops. The Scribes and Pharises therefore had ordinary succession, for any thing that Genebrard showeth to the contrary. But they did both err themselves, and teach errors. Then they, who succeed ordinarily, may err and teach errors. Now the Popes succeed in the chair of the Apostles, as the Scribes and Pharises did in the chair of Aaron. The Popes are not warranted therefore by succession but they may err, and teach errors. Hart. Nay, I deny that. For they have greater grace than had the Scribes and Pharises. Wherefore, not, if the Scribes and Pharises erred, therefore the Popes may. Rainoldes. Nay, as you brew, so must you drink. It is your own comparison of Popes with Scribes and Pharises, even in the chair too. And (to say the truth) they are well compared: saving that the Popes are somewhat behind them in succession, and far beyond them in errors. Hart. Not so. For howsoever it fared with Scribes and Pharises: The fifth Division. I will prove by a manifest demonstration out of the scripture, that Popes cannot err in doctrine. Rainoldes. If you do so, I yield. For one out of the scripture, as good with me, as a thousand. Hart. You must observe then, Staplet. prine. doctrine. lib. 5. ●ap. 9 that the scripture noteth four kinds of men, who by teaching the folk that are named Christians, do either lead them, or mislead them, that is, do either guide them in the right way, or seduce them from it. The first of them, Pastors; the second, hirelings; the third, thieves; and the fourth, Wolves. All whom Christ hath showed almost in one place together. For in S. y joh. 1●. john's gospel he saith of the thief: He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up an other way, he is a thief and a robber. Of the pastor he saith; But he that entereth by the door, is the pastor of the sheep. And a little after, I am (saith he) the door. And anon, making a subdivision of the pastor into his members, he showeth that a pastor is of two sorts, the one, good; the other, an hireling. The good pastor (saith he) doth give his life for his sheep. But an hireling, and he which is not the pastor, that is, which deserveth not the name of a pastor, because he loveth more the goods of the world than the sheep (saith z Homil. 14. supper evangelia. Gregory the great) seethe the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth. He is a thief therefore who climbeth up an other way: that is (as a Lib. 1. epist. 6. Cyprian writeth) who succeeding no man is ordained of himself, not of them who entered by Christ, that is, not of Christ. He is a pastor, who entereth in by the door, & loveth the sheep: that is (as b Lib. 4. cap. 4 Irenee writeth) he that hath both succession from the Apostles sent by Christ, and with succession of Bishopric hath received through God's favour, the sure and gracious gift of truth. The hireling feedeth the sheep, unless the wolf come. For (as Gregory saith in the place alleged) it cannot be surely known, whether a man be a pastor or an hireling, if time of need come not, if persecution and trial want. The fourth kind, is the wolf, at whose coming the hireling fleeth. For he is a wolf who entered in by the door, he was ordained lawfully: but being set in the pastors room after ward became a wolf. Such as S. Paul describeth; c Act. 20.19. I do know (saith he) that after my departure there will ravening wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock, that is, scattering the sheepfold: and of yourselves, that is, of the number and order of pastors, (●or such he speaketh to,) there shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. Such were Arius, Macedonius, Nestorius, Martion, Paulus Samosatenus, Eutyches, and many other Arch-heretikes: who of Bishops, and Priests, that is, of pastors, became wolves. Wherefore of these four kinds of men, we must love the pastor, we must tolerate the hireling, we must beware of the thief, ( d De verbis ●●min. Serm. 49. saith Austin:) and I would add (saith D. Stapleton) we must drive away the wolf. For the wolf must be kept off with greater care and diligence, who cometh in the sheeps clothing, and being made a pastor doth play the wolf, and seduceth: then the thief who climbeth up an other way, by open wrong and injury. For it is enough to beware of him because of lawful succession, which never is unknown or lieth hidden, no more than the Church itself. Moreover the hireling is of two sorts. One in respect of his end, and secret: because he doth feed for hope of gain or honour only, but liveth not offensively. An other, who is openly wicked and ungodly. The hirelings of the former sort S. Paul describeth: e Phil. 1.15. Some (saith he) preach Christ for envy and contion, that is, for honour's sake: some for good will and of charity. And what of such he thinketh, he addeth▪ but what? So that by all means, whether by occasion, or by truth, Christ be preached: in this also I rejoice, yea and will rejoice. Now, he preacheth Christ by occasion, not sincerely, who doth it for his own commodities of money, or of honour, and the praise of man (as De verbis De●in. Serm. 49. Austin doth expound it:) and of such S. Paul saith, that he rejoiceth. So far is he from saying, that men ought not to hear them. As for the other sort of hirelings, that openly are wicked and ungodly: such were the Scribes and Pharises, and yet the scripture saith of them, g Matt. 23.2. The Scribes & the Pharises do sit upon the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say unto you, observe ye, and do ye. But of this I have spoken sufficiently before. And so you may see, that hirelings, whether they be secret, or open, yet they teach the truth, & Christians are bound to hear them. Rainoldes. When shall we have the demonstration out of the scripture, by which you promised to prove that Popes can not err in doctrine? Hart. You have it already. What? You can not see the wood for the trees. Rainoldes. In deed I cannot see that wood amongst these trees. But you who see it better, will show it me, I hope. Hart. See you not the words of Christ and S. Paul, of pastors, and hirelings, and thieves, and wolves, and secret hirelings, and open? Rainoldes. All these trees I see, and many shrubs beside. But I see no stuff in any of them all for your demonstration. Hart. No? Then will I make it plainer from point to point. First, all the Popes are either pastors or hirelings. Next, pastors and hirelings do all teach the truth. Thirdly, I conclude▪ Rainoldes. Stay. I doubt of the first: or rather I doubt not of it. For although the ancient Popes (as they are called) were pastors for the most part, and hirelings now and then some: yet after, there succeeded many thieves and robbers: and so they do till this day. Hart. Mark what you say: [succeeded.] For I grant that in schisms and contentions about the Popedom, a part of the electors sometimes hath set up one, who was a thief and a robber, h Cyprian. ep. 4 ad Cornelium. as Novatian against Cornelius, i Hieron. in Chronic. Euseb. and Vrsicinus against Damasus. But he whom so they set up, was an * Antipapa, one set up against the Pope. Antipope, as historians do call him, not a Pope. They are Popes, who by the line of orderly succession have followed one an other from Peter until our time: whose names are enroled both in Chronicles, and Tables, by Pontacus, Onuphrius, Genebrard, Bristol, and many other learned men. And them I mean only, when I say that all Popes are either pastors, or hirelings. Rainoldes. And them I mean too, when I say that many thieves and robbers have succeeded. Though sometimes the Antipope had better right to the room, than he whom your Chronicles and tables count Pope, whose might did overbear the right: k Concil. Basil. Session. 39 Aeneas silvius de gestis Basil. Concil. lib. 2. as Felix, elected in the Council of basil; then Eugenius, who surprised him. But, I let go these blemishes of the Papal line. And of the lawful Popes, the line of whose succession your l Genebrard. Chronographia, in fine lib. 4. Chronicles and m Bristol in his Demands and Rishtons' Table of the Church praised and glossed on by him. Tables do paint and praise so highly, as a certain mark whereby the Catholic church and faith may be known: of them I say, that many have been thieves & robbers. Hart. I prove that in saying so you say untruly. For they are thieves, and robbers, who enter not in by the door into the sheepfold, but climb up an other way. But all the Popes have entered in by the door into the sheepfold. Therefore not one of them hath been a thief and a robber. Rainoldes. Into what sheepfold they entered, I know not. But this I know that many of them entered in by that, n Cic. ad Attic. lib. 1. epist. 15. which Philip said all castles might be conquered by, if an * Asellus on●stus auro. ass laden therewith might enter in. Is this to enter in by the door, or by the lover? o Horat. Carm. lib. 3. ode 16. as jupiter did to Danae in a shower of gold? Hart. You mean them perhaps, of whom you showed p In the 1. Divis. of this chapped. before, that they were monstrous men, or rather beasts and monsters: who did get the Popedom (I grant) the most of them by bribery and evil means. But the fault both of that and of their corrupt lives is to be laid rather on the Germane Emperors, then on the See of Rome. For (as D. q Chronog. lib. 4. saecul● 10. Genebrard hath noted very well) the Popes, for the space almost of seven score years and ten, from john the eight to Leo the ninth, 1 Pontifices circiter 50. about a fifty Popes did revolt wholly from the virtue of their ancestors, and were 2 Apotactici, Apostati●i v● potius, quam Apo●tolici. Apostatical rather then Apostolical. Of this so great wickedness the Germane Emperors are guilty: who did oppress the Church so, that (orderly elections being set apart) they appointed Popes at their lust, and 3 Saepius pecunia, & pactis. often times for money and covenants; and the Pope elected would not take the Popedom before the Emperor had confirmed him. Yea some did get into the see 4 Vi, aut large i●●o●e. by force or bribery. Wherefote it is no marvel, if they were monstrous and so many in so few years, and died so quickly, sith that they entered in, 5 Non per ostium, sed per posticum. not by the door, but by a postern gate. For they were not chosen after the manner of their ancestors, but 6 A Caesaribus intrudebantur. intruded by the Emperors. Only five amongst so great a number of Popes (and they but meanly) are praised. Rainoldes. This is well and wisely noted by your Genebrard. Many Popes were 7 Prodigiosi. monstrous: but the fault thereof was in the Germane Emperors. This will stop the mouths of the Germane heretics, who do praise those Emperors. But here you grant withal, that fifty Popes or there about did not enter in by the door. Wherein you grant (by consequent) that they were thieves and robbers. You said that I spoke untruly when I said so. Is it become a truth now? Hart. They were thieves and robbers: but they were not Popes. Rainoldes. They do go for Popes in all your r Platina, Onuphrius, Pontaeus. Chronicles, and s Bristol, Rishton, Prateolus. Tables. Hart. Because they kept the room, and were called so. The name of Popes is given them by D. Genebrard too: but he accounteth them usurpers, and so doth mean it improperly. For properly they only are Popes, who have the Popedom by lawful succession. But these men had it not by lawful succession. Therefore they were not Popes, as we must speak of Popes now. And this is declared plainly by D. Chronog. lib. 4. saeculo 11. Genebrard: who having said, that the Popes of that time were 8 Monstra, ut intrusi potius quám electi. monsters, as intruded rather by the Emperors then elected; doth add, these are the fruits of the Church oppressed by tyrants, and of elections taken from it. Yea, 9 Turbata hic fuit legitima successio. the lawful succession was here disordered also: as in * The Church of the jews. the Synagogue of old time under the Antiochi, a little before the Macchabees. This blemish let the writers of the Centuries acknowledge to have sprung from the Germane Emperors, whom they praise so greatly. For they had taken the right of the Church to themselves, and did provide for it by the right of Herode. Thus far D. Genebrard. Whereby you may see that although he grant they were thieves and robbers, yet he denieth they were Popes: for they did not succeed lawfully. Rainoldes. Genebrard was blinded with spite against the Centuries, and Emperors of Germany, when he sewed these figge-leaves to cover the nakedness of his cause. For the fifty Popes (let me call them so, that my speech may be the plainer,) the fifty Popes, whom you grant to have been thieves and robbers, because they were usurpers rather, than successors, as being not chosen after the manner of their ancestors, but intruded by the Emperors: the fifty Popes began in the year of Christ u After Genebrards' account. Onuphrus and Platina differ from it somewhat in a few years. But that altereth not the point. eight hundred eighty & four, when john the eighth died; and ended in the year a thousand forty and eight, when Leo the ninth succeeded. Now the Emperors had no more so do in the Pope's election, for the later half of that time; then they had before, when Popes were good, (in Genebrards' ei●,) and their succession lawful. And for the former half thereof; they had less. For, about the year five hundred & fifty, when justinian the Emperor had recovered Italy from the Goths, his enemies, who long had reigned there: x Anast. biblioth. in vit. Vigilij, Pelagij, Vitaliani, Agathonis. Gregor. in Regist. lib. 1. ep. 4. joh. Diac. in vit. Gregor. l. 1. c. 40. Platina in Pelagio secund. Dist. ●3. c. Aga●ho. it was provided, that none should be ordained Pope (though elected) before that his election were confirmed by the Emperor. Which order was taken for the peace & safety both of the country & the State: lest, the emperors being absent out of Italy, abiding at Constantinople, the Pope (whose authority was grown to be great) if he should mislike the State, or be factious, might entice both Rome and Italy to revolt from them to their enemies, as justinian was persuaded that Pope silverius sought to do. This order continued until the year six hundred eighty and six: about the which time y Anastas. in vita Benedicti secund. the Emperor released the Pope from that bond. But afterward the Pope did bind himself again unto it. For in the year seven hundred seventy and three, z Sigibert. in Chronic. Dist. 63. c. Adrianus. 2 Pope Adrian the first gave to Charles the great, the 1 Ius & potestatem eligendi pontificem, & ordinandi Apostolicam sede●. right and authority of choosing the Pope and ordering the See of Rome: and he gave it with consent of a Council of Bishops, not of his own fancy. The decree of which Council did stand in strength and virtue above a hundred years, until the time of the fifty Popes. For in the year eight hundred eighty and five, a Pla●ina in Adrian. tert. Sigon. de regn. Ital. l. 5. & 7. Pope Adrian the third made a contrary decree: to weet, that 2 Ne in creando pontifice Imperatoris autoritas expectaretur. utque libera essent cleri & populi suffragia. in creating of Popes they should not wait for the consent of the Emperor, but the voices of the clergy and people should be free. Neither had any Emperor that prerogative after, till the year nine hundred sixty and three, when it was restored again unto Otho. Now in the mean time the monsters came in, b In the year of Christ 892. Formosus, c 898. Boniface, d 898. Stephen, e 899. Romanus, f 899. Theodore, g 899. john the ninth, h ●04. Christopher, i 905. Sergius, and finally that monster of monsters k 955. john the twelfth. Of whom there was not one appointed by the Emperor. And yet (to see the spirit of a Popish zeal how it wil● besotte men,) l Chronog. lib. 4. saeculo 10. Genebrard, having written that Sergius did imprison his predecessor Christopher and commanded the body of Formosus to be digged out of his grave and beheaded, doth add this note upon it: No marvel if these Popes were monstrous; for they were not chosen after the manner of their ancestors, but intruded by the Emperors. Whereas m Onuph. in Chron. Rom. Pont. Sigon. de ●egno Ital. lib. 6. your Chronicles show that Sergius conspiring against his predecessor Christopher (as Christopher had conspired against his predecessor Leo) did force him to renounce the Popedom on one day, & himself * Post●idi●. the next day did stall him●elfe in it. So that not as much as the presence of the emperors ambassadors was stayed for at his consecration, (which yet n Concil. Raven. in the year 898. Sigon de reg. It. lib. 6. by order should have been, to hinder violence and offences:) mu●h less was he intruded (as Genebrard saith) by the Emperor. But when john the twelfth had gotten the room, than the which there could not a wretcheder thing possess it, unless the devil himself should hold it in person: o Luitprand. Ticin. lib. 6. cap. 6.10. & 11. Sigibert. in Chron. the Emperor Otho being earnestly sued too by the Romans to set the Church in better order, caused the Bishops of Italy with others, and the Roman clergy, to be assembled in a Council. Wherein after that they had deposed john, and chosen Leo the eight, all, with one consent: p Distinct. ●3. c. in Synodo. Pope Leo, with the whole clergy, and people of Rome, did grant unto Otho and his successors for ever, 3 Facultatem eligendi successorem, atque suminae sedis Apostolae pontificem ordinandi. the power of choosing the Pope. The cause which moved him to 'stablish this order, was, that no such monsters might sit in Peter's seat as there had before. q Sigon. de regn. Ital. lib. 7. For, he considered, that since the time that Adrian the third had taken away that power from the Emperors, and left it to the people and clergy: the foul and inordinate ambition of the Romans had filled the Church with beasts, the city with tumults, and the elections with villainy. He saw that this outrage must be repressed some way. He thought no bridle fit, then that the decree of Adrian the first, who gave the right of choosing the Pope to the Emperor, should be revived. And so he proposed the matter to the Council: and the Council agreed upon it. Wherefore the former half of the fifty monsters were not intruded by the Emperors. If the later were: whose was the fault? the Emperors? or the Popes and Counsels, who gave the Emperor that right? But in deed they were not. For, r Luitprand. l. 6. c 6. Sigibert. in Chron. although the Romans had sworn to Otho that they would never choose Pope without his consent, and his sons: yet s Sigon. de reg●. Ital. lib. 7. by and by they turned to their old bent, like a deceitful bow. Howbeit in his days they could not have their purpose. For when they cast out Leo, and brought in john again, and chose one after him too: 1 Otho the first. Otho by force of arms made them repent it, and redressed it. But in 2 Otho the second. his sons days they went through with it. 3 Otho the third. His nephew had a stroke in the choice of one or two: but they were of the better sort. It was the Romans choice that thrust the monsters in. Of whom we may esteem what the rest were by their head, and tail; Boniface, and Benedict. t Platina de vit. Pont. in Bonifac. sept. Sigon de regno Ital. lib. 7. in the year 974. Boniface the seventh, who came in by bribery, was cast out by violence, went away with sacrilege, made money of his Church-robberies, and therewith got again the Popedom. u Plat. Bened. non. Sigon. lib. 8. in the year 1046. Benedict the ninth, who when he was thrown out for his unworthiness, and Sivester placed in his steed; he, by help of the faction which had made him Pope, threw Silvester out again: and fearing that men's stomachs would not brook him long (they did so loath him and abhor him) he set the Popedom to sale, and Gregory the sixth bought it. These dealings of Gregory, Silvester, and Benedict, * Tria ●aete trima monst●a. three most ugly monsters (as they are called by x In Gregor. sext.. Platina) stirred up the Emperor Henry the second to look unto the Church, as Otho had done. Whereupon, when he was come into Italy, y Otho Fri●●gens. Chron. lib. 6. cap. 32. Pope Gregory went unto him: and offered him a precious diadem to win his favour. But he nevertheless assembled together a Council of Bishops: z Sigo●. lib. 8. who having examined the cause of Pope Gregory, & found that money made him Pope, judged him unlawfully made, & so he was deprived for Simony. Then, in consultation about a new Pope, when the Romans themselves did not name any, the Emperor named a Germane, Suidiger, a Bishop commended for his skill & virtue: who being approved by them all was chosen Pope, & called Clemens. By whom & by an other Council held at Rome the same power was given to Henry again for ordering of the Popedom, that was before to Otho. So neither did the Emperors intrude the later monsters of the fifty Popes: no more than the former. For there is but a Namely Damasus the second: whom Onaphrius calleth optim●m Pontificem, reproving them who writ otherwise of him. Annotat. in Platin. Clement. secund. one of the fifty after Clemens, and he none of the monsters; (though Genebrard make him one, because the Emperor chose him:) nor had the Romans needed to have been troubled with him, but that Clemens the Germane took some b He was poisoned. Krantz. Saxon. l. 4. c. 41. Genebr. Chron. l. ●. in the year 1047. Italian drugs amongst them. Nay, the Emperors were so far from intruding of monsters: that they did extrude them, and were the chiefest means to rid the Church of them. Which as it is evident by the whole course of their lives and stories so Carolus Sigonius in his c Histor. de regno Italiae lib. 8. story of Italy (no partial man against the Popes) doth bear the Emperors this witness, and layeth the blame of those monsters upon the Romans themselves. 1 Romani pro●ere●, privatae qu●erend●e po●●nti● causa. The noble men (saith he) of Rome, to advance their own private power, corrupted them to whom the Pope's election belonged: and thereby filled the Church (almost two hundred years together) with grievous seditions, and shameful evils, and disorders. These were the Marquis Albert, and Alberike, his son, a Consul, the Earls of Thusculum▪ & they who were of their kin, or by their means had grown to wealth. Who, either bribing the people and clergy with money, or spoiling them of the ancient liberty of the election by whatsoever other means, Amicos aut pr●pinquo● suos pro ar●itrio provexerunt. preferred at their lust their kinsmen, or friends, men commonly nothing like to the former Popes in holiness and good order. For the repressing of whose outrage, Pope Leo the eighth revived the law, which had been made by Adrian the first, and repealed by the third: that no Pope elected should undertake the Popedom without the emperors consent. Which law being taken away by occasion that the room was sought ambitiously in the city, and purchased by bribes▪ the state of the Church was put again in great danger 3 Privatis Earundem factionum studiis. through the private lusts of the same factions. To provide therefore a remedy for these things, Henry the Emperor came into Italy: as hereupon Sigonius showeth. And so you may see the lewdness of Genebrard, that shameless parasite of the Popes who without all reverence both of God and man, doth rail, lie, and falsify stories, to deface the Emperors, and cross the writers of the Centuries. For he saith, that the Emperors d Genebr. Chronogr. lib. 4. saeculo 9 did, as wild boars, eat up the vineyard of the Lord: the stories say, that they delivered it from wild boars. The stories say, that the monsters of the Popes were chosen by the Romans themselves: e saeculo 10. & 11. he saith, that they came in by intrusion of the Emperors. The stories say, that the Emperors, who hunted out those beasts, were virtuous and lawful Princes: he calleth f saeculo 11. them tyrants; nor only them, but also g saeculo 16. many good emperors more, who meddled with the Pope's election. Finally, the stories say, that the Emperors were allowed by Popes and Counsels to do it: he saith h saeculo 11. that they usurped it by the right of Herode. And yet himself recordeth, and that in the same Chronicle too, that i Lib. 3. saeculo 8. Pope Adrian with a Council, k Lib. 4. saeculo 10. Pope Leo with a Council, l saeculo 11. Pope Clemens with a Council, did grant it unto Charles, Otho, and Henry the Emperors. I have read of an envious man, who was content to lose one of his own eyes, that an other might lose both. Genebrard is gone farther. For he is content to put out both his own eyes, that the writers of the Centuries may put out one of theirs. That they may * Hanc labem Centuriatores agnoscanta Germa●is Imp●. exortam▪ qu●s la●dant ●●●topere. acknowledge themselves to have praised the Germane Emperors unjustly: he granteth both that Popes with Counsels have erred, and that their succession wa● broken off a great while. Wherein if you say the same with him, M. Hart: I am glad of it. But your fellows (I fear me) will not allow that you say, if you allow that he saith. Hart. No body saith that the succession of Popes was broken off: nor that the Popes may err and Counsels. For as Genebrard taketh it, Leo the eighth and Clemens the second were not Popes. Rainoldes. But Adrian the first was, as Genebrard taketh it, and that one of the best Popes. Yet he did grant as much to Charles the Emperor, as Leo did to Otho, as Clemens did to Henry. And if it be true that they were not Popes, whom yet the Roman clergy with many Bishops chose: then the Pope's succession, which is almost the only eye of your Cyclops, will be clean put out by the devise of this * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Homer. Odyss. lib. 9 Nobody. And how shall the writings of our Countrymen, m Visib. Monarch. lib. 7. Sanders, & n Moti●. 22. & Demand. 43. Bristol and o Table of the Church. Rishton, and such others do then? who make the Pope's succession the chiefest bulwark of your Church, a certain mark that never faileth? And what will p Genebr. chronogr. lib. 3. in princip. Nobody himself say to the third book of his Chronicle: where he wrote that 1 Petri successionem ad saecu●orum extremum d●taturam. Peter's succession shall endure in the Church of Rome until the end of the world? Was this true when he wrote the third book? and was it false when he wrote the fourth? Hart. D. Genebrard (whom you shall prove to be somebody ere you have done, though you be flouting him with Nobody,) doth show by the one place his meaning in the other. For sith he wrote that Peter's succession shall endure in the Church of Rome until the end of the world: it is plain he meant not that it was broken of at any time absolutely, and simply. Wherefore, in that he addeth about the fifty Popes, Lib. 4. saec. 11. that 2 Turbata hic ●uit legitim● successio. the lawful succession was disordered then: he meant that it was broken but in some sort, as it were; or (to say the truth) rather bruised, then broken; not interrupted, but disturbed. For neither Genebrard saith, nor any Catholic writer else, but that the succession of Popes hath continued, and shall unto the end. Rainoldes. Then I mistook his meaning, touching the succession; and yours, touching the Popes. For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes, who were thieves and robbers. Now I perceive you meant not absolutely, and simply, that they were not Popes; but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort: they were cracked Popes, as you would say, and not sound; or perhaps (in truth) rather crazed, then cracked. Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes, doth stand in force against them still. For it is true, as you said, that they did not succeed lawfully. Wherefore, either lawful succession is not necessary unto your succession: or the crazed Popes were no Popes at al. They did succeed Simon, but Act. ●. 1● Simon the sorcerer, and not Simon Peter. Howbeit you must count them Simon Peter's successors for your succession's sake. Else you spoil your Church of her gayest ornament, through which the unskilful are most enamoured of her. Beside that neither would it help your cause a whit in trial of the issue. For sithence the Pope hath overmastered the Emperors, and thrust from his election, first them, than the people, afterward the clergy; & s In the year of Christ 1180. Concil. Lateran. sub Alexandro ter. cap. 1. brought it to a few Cardinals: there have been as monstrous Popes as were before, (still I except * Pope john the twelfth: of whom in the 1. Divis. of this chapped. john,) and have come in as unlawfully. Hart. There were many tumults and schisms in the Church, chiefly through the emperors means, before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripeness which it is now at. But things began to mend from that time of disorder. For by the virtue of Leo the ninth, and the Pope's following, that usurpation was taken from the Emperor Henry the fourth, although with great stirs. And so was the See Apostolic of Rome restored to her ancient brightness and beauty. Whereof our own days have seen the proof and trial in many good Popes, elected lawfully, no doubt: Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and him who reigneth now, Gregory the thirteenth, a most loving father of the Church's children. Rainoldes. Whether that these Popes, or other, have been good; and their elections lawful: it is not the question. Perhaps you praise them for affection: perhaps they have been good, as Popes. For Popes in our days are praised for their goodness, when they surpass not the wickedness of other men: as a t Guicciardia. histor. Ital. l. 16. good historian, who knew and loved them well, doth note in 1 Who was Pope in the year 1533. Clemens the seventh. 2 Pope in Queen Mary's days. 1555. Marcellus the second died the two and twentéeth day of his Popedom not without suspicion of poison, (saith your Genebrard,) * Quod nimium rectus quibusdam futurus videretur. Gene●brard. Chronogr. lib. 4. because some men thought that he would be to good. Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and Gregory the thirteenth have held the Popedom longer. If they were good Popes: I trust they were not too good. As for their electious: the days are yet too young to see the faithful stories of them. But, if they were chosen as their predecessors, according to the custom of the Church of Rome: then by the elections of u Guicciard. histor. Ital. l. 6. Pius the third, x lib. 6. & 10. julius the second, y lib. 11. Leo the tenth, z lib. 15. Clemens the seventh, and Cardinal a In M. Foxc● English ecclesiast. history. Woolseis letters suing to succeed Clemens, wise men may conjecture▪ how lawfully they were chosen. You say that there were many tumults, and schisms, chief through the emperors means, before the Pope's election could be wrested from them, and brought to the Cardinals: but after that time, things began to mend. In deed they have mended, as sour ale doth in summer. For of b O●uphr. in Chronic. Rom. rout. thirty schisms in the Church of Rome (so many as no Church can boast of beside▪) the worst and the longest hath been sith that time, even * Schisma omnium pessimum, & diuturnius in ecclesia Rom. xxix. quod quinquaginta annos perduravit. the nine and twentieth: which lasted by the space of fifty years together, first, with two Popes at once; then, with three. And, if the Emperor Sigismond had not been, c Antonin. hist. part. 3. tit. 22. c. 6. Paul. Aemil. de reb. gest. Francor. l. 10. through whose means the Council of Constance was assembled, and the three removed: by this time your Church might have had as many Popes, as (in d revel. 17.3. the Revelation) the scarlet coloured beast hath heads. But to leave the Emperors, and prove the point in question, that since the Popes were chosen only by the Cardinals there have been as monstrous Popes as were before, and have come in as unlawfully: there are so many examples, that it is hard to make choice, or know where to begin amongst them. Let him be the first, who compiled 1 The sixth book of the Decretals. part of the canon law, and 2 In the common Extravagants c. unam sanctam tit. de maiorit. & obedient. that lusty decretal of the Pope's supremacy, even Boniface the eighth. Who being inflamed with desire of the Popedom, e Platin. in Caelestino quint. induced Pope Caelestin, a simple man to resign it; whether f Blond. decad. 2. lib. 9 by persuading him, that he was not able to wield a charge so weighty, or g Platin. in Bonifac. octau. Genebrard. Chronog. lib. 4. by procuring some to sound unto him in the night a voice as it were from heaven, that, if he would be saved he must resign the Popedom, or by both these practices, but he induced him to resign it: and h Antonin. hist. part. 3. tit. 20. c. 8 not looking to be called by God, as was Aaron, he got it to himself by unorderly means, i Platin. in Bonifac. octau. all that ambition could devise. Neither did he govern it better, than he got it. For being a man of intolerable pride, and thirsting after gold unspeakably, he bore himself as k Martin. Polon. in supput. Pont. in append. Lord of spiritual things and temporal throughout the whole world. l Gaguin. hist. Francor. lib. 7. Platin. in Bonifac. octau. He took upon him at his lust to give and take away kingdoms; to banish men, and to restore them: and sought to breed terror rather than religion in the minds of Emperors, of Kings, of Princes, of peoples and of nations. m Tritem▪ in Chron. monast. Hir●. He was the 3 In the year of Christ 1300. first autour of your year of jubilee, 4 c. Antiquorum. extra. De poenit. & remissionib. proclaiming full remission ofsinnes, to all them, who came in pilgrimage to Rome, (a great gain n Antonin. hist.. part. 3. tit. 20. c. 8. to him and his:) and o Kran●z. Sax●● lib. 8. cap. 36. at that jubilee he showed himself in his solemnities, one day attired like a Pope, an other like an Emperor, and having a naked sword before him, he sat and said with loud voice, Behold the two sword here. q Platin. in Caelestin. qui●t. He cast his predecessor Celestine into prison, and brought him there unto his grave. q Blond. decad. 2. lib. 9 Platinan Bonifac. octan. He vexed the country of Italy with wars, and nourished discords amongst them. r ●ho. Walsin. hist. Angl. in Edward p●im. He said that both the land and persons of the Scots 3 Pe●t●●●bant su●● ca●●llae, that is, to the C●●rch of Rome's right, as afterward the 〈◊〉 expounded it. belonged to his Chapel, that under that pretence he might trouble England, and cite king Edward to his judgement. s Al●e●●. Kr●tz. Saxon l. 8 c. 3●. He refused to accept of Albert chosen Emperor by the Princes of Germany, because they made choice without his authority, who had (he said himself) the right ofboth sword. t G●gian. hi●●. Francor. lib. 7. He deprived the French king of his kingdom upon displeasure; u ●al●i●gam in Edw●r. prim. and moved the king of England to make war against him; x Kran●z. Saxon l. 8. c. 3●. & 37. Metrop. l. 8. c. 48. and granted to Albert that he should be Emperor, on condition that he would take the realm of France also, and thrust the lawful king out of it. And more he would have done of such Papal affairs, y Tritem. in Chron. Monast. Hi●●aug. Platin. in Bonifac. octa. unless the French king to tame his pride had took him prisoner: whereupon he died within a few days for grief. This is that Boniface, ofwhom z Walsingam in Edward. prim. Marius de schism. & council. part. 2. c. 18. Genebrard. Chronogr. lib. 4. the saying goeth: He entered like a fox, he reigned like a lion, he died like a dog. another like to him, but in an other kind, is a Whom Platina calleth the four● & twentieth: Onuphrius, the two and twentieth. john the three and twentéeth. b Platin. in johann vige●im● quart. Who got (while he was Cardinal) a great deal of money, and finding the Cardinals somewhat poor and needy gave them gentle rewards. Whereupon they, seeing him to be a liberal man, made him Pope for it. But that liberality was his chiefest virtue. For, he was c Onuphr. in Platinae append. fit for the camp, then for the Church; for profane things, then for the service of god; as knowing no faith nor religion at all: d Concil. Constantiense lession. 11. art. 6. & caet. & session. 12. an oppressor of the poor, a persecuter of justice, a maintainer of the wicked, a sanctuary of Simony, an offscouring of vices, given wholly to sleep & to fleshly lusts, wholly contrary to the life and manners of Christ, a mirror of unhonest and infamous behaviour, & a deviser, a profound deviser of all villainies: in a word, so lewd and wretched a caitiff, that amongst them who knew his conversation he was called commonly * Diabolus incarnatus. a devil incarnate. Yet these most holy Lords Boniface and john, are nothing in comparison of Alexander the sixth. For, although they both did get the triple crown corruptly: yet they conveyed it closely. Alexander the sixth e Guicciardin. hist. Ital. lib. 1. did buy the voices of many Cardinals 1 Palesament. openly, partly 2 Co●danari. with money, partly 3 Con promise de gl●●usticii, & beneficii 〈◊〉, che●erano ●●plissi●i. with promises of his offices and livings, chiefly the voice of Cardinal Ascanio: for which he did covenant to give the chiefest office of the Court of Rome, and Churches, and castles, and a palace full of movable goods of marvelous great value. According unto which beginning he went forward: and proved (as it was thought he would) most pernicious to Italy and all Christendom. For though he excelled in sharpness of wit, in judgement, in eloquence, and was very careful and quick in matters of importance: yet he passed far these virtues with his vices, manners most beastly, not sincerity, not modesty, not truth, not faith, not religion, covetousness unsatiable, unmeasurable ambition, cruelty more than barbarous, & a most fervent desire of advancing (by whatsoever means) 4 That is to say, his bastards. Onuphrius in alexander. sext. Vola●erran. Anthropolog. l. 22. his children, of whom he had many, and amongst them 5 The Duke of Valence, Caesar Borgia, who first was Cardinal of Valence, and killed his elder brother the Duke of Candi● to have his ●oome. Guicciard. lib. 3. Onuphr. in Alexand. sext.. one (that to execute lewd devices there might not want lewd instruments) no less abominable in any point then his father. Such a serpent held the seat of S. Peter for the space of ten years, until his own venoome killed him. For f Guicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 6. when he & his son and heir, the Duke of Ualence, had purposed to poison 6 The Cardinal of Corne●o. a Cardinal whom they were to sup with, (as commonly they used not only their enemies, but also their 7 Both other Courtiers and Cardinals: as the Cardinal of S. Angelo, the Cardinal of C●pua, & the Cardinal of ●●odana. friends, yea nearest friends which had riches, that themselves might be enriched with their spoils:) the Duke had sent thither flagons of wine poisoned, by a servant whom he made not privy to the matter, vut willed him to give them no man. The Pope coming into the Cardinals before supper time, the weather being hot, he thirsty, called for wine. Now, because his own provision for supper was not come from the palace yet, the servant of the Duke gave him of that wine, which he thought his master had willed to be kept for himself as the best. Whereof while he was drinking, his son, the Duke came in: and thinking the wine to be his fathers own, he drank of it too. So the Pope was carried suddenly for dead home to the palace: and the next day he was carried dead (after the manner of the Popes) into S. Peter's Church: black, swollen, and ugly: most manifest signs of poison. All Rome did run together to his dead carcase with wonderful joy: no man being able to satisfy his eyes with beholding a ser●ent dispatched and quelled, that had poisoned all the world with his outrageous ambition, and pestilent treachery, and with all examples of horrible cruelty, of monstrous lust, and of incredible covetousness in selling without difference things holy and profane. Hart. I skill not greatly of these stories: and it may ●e doubted whether they be true. For men are prone commonly to think and speak evil: specially of such as are of high calling. Howbeit, if they be true: what is that to us? The Popes may err in manners, we grant, but not in doctrine. Neither if a man be nought in conversation, is therefore his religion nought. judas an Apostle, Nicolas a Deacon; g Matt. 26.47. the one betrayed Christ, h Reu. 2.15. the other bred the Nicolaitans: both fa●tie in their lives; but the Christian faith, which they professed is not faulty. There be, that writ also reports very shameful of your Doctors and Pastors: i Bolsecus, in vita calvini. of Calvin, that he committed a detestable sin; k Lindanus, Dubitant. dialog. 2. of Bucer, that he denied Christ at his death. Which things are as odious, as those that you rehearse of this or that Pope. But if I should urge them, you would reject them as impertinent. Rainoldes. In deed the truth of God doth not depend of men's manners. Many jews, inferior in life to many Paynims: many Christians, to many jews. Neither did I mention the Popes to that purpose. Howbeit, where you call the truth of their stories (which I touched) into doubt, and match them with reports that some men have written of Bucer and Calvin: it is the part of wise men, to weigh (as judges do in witnesses,) who writeth, what, of whom. The l L. Testium fides. Dig. l. Siqui● testibus. Cod. tit. de testibus. 3. q. 5. c. Accusatores, & testes. law alloweth not that a man's enemy shall be a witness against him. No enemy more deadly, than he, who beareth hatred for quarrel of religion: as m Luc. 9.53. the Samaritans to the jews. Such hatred is borne to Bucer and Calvin, by Lindan and Bolsecke, the authors of those lewd reports. And a farther hatred by Bolsecke to Calvin: because n In the year of Christ 1551. as it appeareth by the acts in Calvin and Beza. Bolsecke saith it was 1552. of forgetfulness (it seemeth) 〈◊〉 the printers error. Praefat. in vit. Calvin. when he would have troubled Geneva with erroneous doctrine, Calvin did set himself openly against him; o Epist. ad ministros Hel●et. the ministers of Geneva reproved him by word and writing; p Calvin. in epist ad ministr. Basil. the magistrates of Geneva did banish him out of their city. q Theod. Bez. in vita Calvin. On like cause whereof when he was driven twice out of the coasts of Berna too, and things fell not out to his mind amongst the Protestants: he revolted from them again to the Papists, and returned to Popery as a dog to his vomit. Wherefore they do injury to Calvin and Bucer, who believe so heinous matters against them upon no better proof than Lindans word, or Bolseckes: chiefly, sith the knowledge of many, r Epist. Nic. 〈…〉 obitu 〈◊〉. who were present at the death of Bucer, of infinite who either lived with Calvin, or read his godly writings, wherein he liveth still, may clear them from the cankered spite of one enemy in all indifferent judges eyes. But the things which I did mention of your Popes are witnessed not by enemies, but by friends; not one, but many; most like to know the truth, and to report thereof no worse, than they knew. For stories do consent that Boniface the eighth was such * A fox in his entrance, a lion in his reign, a dog in his death. a threeformed beast, as I declared. The Council of Constance examined and found john the three and twentéeth to be a sink of sins, a Devil in carnate, as they called him. Of Alexander the sixth I said not a word more than is in Guicciardin, a gentleman, who lived at the same time and wrote the story of it: an Italian by nation, s Guicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 1. by religion a Papist, t lib. 14. & 17. the Pope's lieutenant by his office, a faithful captain to his State, u lib. 13. a bitter enemy to the Lutherans. And Guicciardins report of him is confirmed by two Italians more, x Histor. sui ●emp. lib. 1. & 8. De vita Leon decim. lib. 1. & vita Pomp. Colui●●. iovius, and y In vita Alexand. sext. append. Platin. Onuphrius. Who, though in certain of the Pope's lives, they do blanch their histories, of love and devotion; yet they consent with Guicciardin in Alexander the sixth: saving that, where Guicciardin saith he would have poisoned one Cardinal at his last supper, they say that he intended to have poisoned sundry. Now these were sworn friends to them, of whom they wrote: they were not Lindans, and Bolseckes. They sought not of malice what they might write against them: but they wrote the truth by z Nequid falsi dicere and eat, ne quid veri non audeat. Cic. de Orat. l. 1. the law of history. They did not misreport them to revenge themselves. 1 In his letters written to the Ministers of Basil 1552. set forth in print 1575. Bolsecke wrote his preface 1577. printed the book 1580. Calvin had touched Bolsecke: the Popes had not so them. They were not requested and sued to by Protestants to set forth their works in print against the Popes: as Bolsecke was by Papists ( 2 A perquám multis Dominis amicis que ●eis rogatus & sollicitatus. Bol●ec. in epist. dedicator. ad archiepiscopum ●ngdunensem. his Lords and friends,) against Calvin. If I had gone about to touch in such sort your Popes with odious matters: I could have made mention of a young stripling a Productus a Paulo tertio ex arcanis cubiculi ●ord●ous. Alciat. in epist. ad jovium. created Bishop by a Pope; and an other, b julius ●ertius Innocentium, quem. Sleidan. lib. 2●. whom a Pope made his first Cardinal; and c Lucretia nomine, sed re Thais: Alexandri filia, spouse▪ 〈◊〉. Sannazar, in Epigram. Lucretia, a Pope's daughter, he liker to Tarqvinius, than she to Lucretia; and d Filius Pauli tertii, qui Cosmum Cherium per vim. Sleidan. lib. 19 Aloisius, a Pope's son, worthy of his father; with e Honoranda Diu●m Ganymedibus aedes. Baptist. Mant. de calamit. temp. l. 3. other villainies more notorious; all proved by more credible witnesses than Bolseckes. But I neither ripped up all that I might, (many things they have done, which a shamefast adversary would be loath to open:) neither did I speak of any thing but that, which yourselves do, or must, confess of necessity. And therefore when I spoke of faithless wicked Popes▪ I said not a word either of f Called john the eighth. Platina. joane, the whore; or of g Called Gregory the seventh. Benn● Card. de vita Hiltebrandi. Hildebrand, the traitor: because you take exception, h Onuphr. annot. in Plat. Gregor. ●ept. Harding in the preface of his De●ect. for Hildebrand, that they who writ much evil of him did it to please his enemy; for i Onuphr. annot. in Plat. joan. octa●. ex. Luitprand. Ticin. l. 6. c. 6. & 7. joane, that she was harlot to Pope john the twelfth, so that john and joane were not two Popes, but one. As for that you say that if all the stories were true, they are impertinent, sith you defend the doctrine of Popes and not their manners▪ that answer other where is fit, and to purpose; but here it cometh out of season. For, the point in question touching the Popes was, whether any of them had been thieves & robbers. You granted that about a fifty of them were so; and monsters too, not only thieves: but the fault thereof you said was in the Emperors, who intruded them. I replied, that since the Cardinals did choose them, there have been as monstrous of them as were before, and that have come in as unlawfully. For proof hereof I named Boniface the eighth, john the three and twentéeth, and Alexander the sixth: who were Popes then when the election by Cardinals was grown to the perfitest, the first a thirteen hundred, the next a fourteen hundred, the last a fifteen hundred years after Christ. That these were monstrous, their whole lives do show: that they came in unlawfully, their entrances. That they were as monstrous, and came in as unlawfully, as the fifty Popes: I will not prove, unless you force me; for comparisons are odious. And here I must add, lest I be accused as partial to the Emperors, that although I clear them from intruding those Popes, yet I clear them not from all fault therein. For it was a fault in them, that they suffered such villains to enjoy the room: as it is well noted by k Platina de ●●tis Pont. in Benedict. quar●. your own historian, who saith, that great licentiousness did bring forth those monsters, 1 Nullo Principe flagitia hominum tum coercente. no Prince then repressing the wicked deeeds of men. Of the which fault the later Emperors also (I speak it with reverence, as of Princes, not of Tyrants,) have been, and do continue guilty. But to conclude the point, if he be a thief & a robber, who entereth in unlawfully into the sheepfold; then many of your Popes have been thieves and robbers. Yet take I not advantage of that which you have said about the fifty Popes. For so, not only they, but all the rest might prove thieves. Hart. Nay you were best to say that the Saints themselves, Martyrs, and Confessors, and Doctors, were thieves. For l As Bristol saith in the Table of Popes in his Demands. the ancient Popes were all Saints, but one, from Peter to Honorius, until above six hundred years after Christ. Rainoldes. Were they so? What mean you then to indite them of so great a crime? Where was your Genebrards' wit, when he wrote of the fifty Popes? For if they did enter in 2 Non per ostium, sed per posti●um: Genebrard. Chronog. lib. 4. saeculo 10. not by the door, but by a postern gate, because when they were chosen they would not take the Popedom until the Emperor had confirmed them: how may the Saints, as m Io. Diacon. ●n vit. Gregor. l. 1. c. 40. Platin. in Gregor. Sigon. de regno Ital. l. 1. Gregory namely, be excused, who entered in the same way? And if these were thieves, because they entered in by the emperors consent: what were their predecessors, n Euseb. hist. eccles. l. 6. c. 21. Cyprian. ep 52. who entered in by the people's? For the Emperor Friderike had reason when o Otho Frising. de rebus gest. Friderici Imper. l. 1. c. 1. he said, that * Qui tanquam ●ex, & patricius, primus in electione suae urbis episcopi esse deberet. himself, as king, aught to be chief in choosing the Bishop of his own city. Wherefore if the people had voices in the choice of him: why not the Germane Emperor? p Sigon. de regn. Ital. l. 4. & 7. who then was king of Rome, though now the Pope be. And if they were thieves too, because the people chose them, and not the clergy only: what have the Popes been these four hundred years, Genebr. Chronogr. l. 4. Plat. & Onuphr. de ●itis Pontifican. whom neither the Emperor, nor people, nor clergy, but only a few Cardinals have chosen? See you not how all the Popes are brought in danger by you, to be thieves? But (as I said) I mean not to take this advantage. It sufficeth me, first, that many of them purchased the Popedom with bribery and corruption, as I have showed by their stories: next, that all such purchasers are (by their own law) r Dist. 79. c. Siquis pecunia. Non Apostolicus, sed apostaticus habeatur. which decree was made by Pope Nicolas the second in a Council▪ held at Rome. not Apostolical, but Apostatical, that is to say, revolters from the faith of Christ, not successors of the Apostles. For hereof it followeth that many, not only Antipopes, but Popes, and they elected, not intruded, have been thieves and robbers, by your own definition. Wherefore, not all Popes are pastors, or hirelings. And so the demonstration by which you promised to prove out of the scripture, that Popes cannot err in doctrine, is fallen. Hart. But as D. s Princip. doctr. lib. 5. cap. ●. Stapleton doth define a thief out of S. Cyprians words: no Pope can be a thief. For he is a thief, who succeeding no man, is ordained of himself. Now, it is manifest that the Popes, all, both have succeeded others, and were ordained by others. Yet, though some of them were thieves, and robbers, in D. Genebrards' sense: they could not err in doctrine. Such is the force of succession. Rainoldes. Why? Is the force, I say not of succession, but of lawful succession, such, that they, who have it, can not err in doctrine? May not true Bishops and pastors teach heresy, as 1 Of Alexandria. Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 2. Arius, 2 Of Constantinople. Socrat. l. 7. c. 29. & 32. Nestorius, and 3 Of Antioch. Euseb. l. 7. c. ●●. Samosatenus did? Hart. Yes: they may. But then they become wolves, as you heard out of D. Stapleton. They are not thieves and robbers. Rainoldes. Then the Pope's succession doth not warrant them but that they may be wolves. Which is as much to my purpose, as if you said, thieves, and robbers. And in very truth, unless D. Stapleton had slubbered up that place of scripture (in S. john) to make it serve for his succession: it would be apparent that Christ meant the same by thieves and robbers, that you by wolves. For when the Pharises had t joh. 7.47. & ●▪ 13. & 9.16. spoken much against him, and sought by u joh. 9 ver. 24. & 29. persuasion and x ver. 22. & 34. excommunication to lead away the people: he (to make the faithful wise against their practices) y joh. 10. ver. 14. & 3●. declareth both his office and person in a parable, wherein he compareth Gods chosen to sheep, and himself to a shepherd. And by that occasion he advertiseth them of three sorts of teachers, which meddle with the flock of God: the first, a shepherd; the second, a hireling; the third, a thief and a robber. z ver. 2. & 11. A shepherd entereth in by the door into the sheepfold, and careth for the sheep so, that when the wolf cometh, he standeth in their defence, adventuring his life for them. a ver. 12▪ & 13. A hireling entereth in, as the shepherd doth, but careth not for the sheep: and therefore in the time of danger he fleeth, and leaveth them to be scattered. b ver. ●● & ●●. A thief and a robber neither entereth in by the door, as they: and he cometh to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. These three sorts of teachers are mentioned by Christ, perhaps to touch the Pharises by the way covertly, but manifestly to clear himself, whom they reproved as a false teacher, that is (in this similitude,) as a thief & a robber. Which slander to confute, he showeth himself to be● a shepherd, neither a shepherd hireling, but a good shepherd, that is, a true and godly teacher. And to this end he noteth two differences between a shepherd and a thief: the one, in their doctrine; the other, in their end. In their doctrine; c vers. 1. & 2. that a thief entereth not in by the door, the lawful way: but the shepherd entereth in by the door, that is, he preacheth Christ. For d ver. 7. & 9 Christ is the door: and by him the shepherd leadeth his sheep in, and out, to feed them and save them. In their end, e vers. 10. that a thief cometh to steal, kill, destroy, that is, to spoil them of their life, of life spiritual and eternal: but the shepherd cometh that they may have life, and have it in abundance. Whereby it is evident that Christ did mean the same by thieves and robbers here, which other where by false Prophets: f Matt. 7.15. Beware of false Prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. For else, neither they could have been noted well by the property of wolves, that is, to kill & destroy: neither had his doctrine and division of teachers been perfect to his purpose: neither were his answer fit against the Pharises, who touched him as a seducer, and not as an intruder; not for succession, but for doctrine. If you believe not me that this is the natural meaning of the text, you may believe S. g In evang johann. Tract. 45. Austin, who saith, that to enter into the sheepfold by the door, is, to preach Christ: whom who so preach not rightly, they are thieves and robbers. Of these, for example, he nameth Arius: who yet succeeded lawfully as D. Stapleton granteth, though he count him a wolf, and not a thief and a robber, upon a point that Austin saw not. In which point his fancy carried him so far, that whereas h De verbis Dom. serm 49. Austin said, we must love the Pastor, tolerate the hireling, beware of the thief, i Staplet. princip. doctrine. l. 5. cap. 9 he would add to Austin, and drive away the wolf: as though S. Austin meant not [the wolf] by [the thief;] and [drive away,] by [beware;] belike nor Christ neither, when he said * Matt. 7.15. beware of wolves. How much more seemly had it been for Stapleton to have followed Austin (with your k Arias Monta●us, johannes Ferus, & Claudius Guillia●dus in Euangel. johann▪ cap. 10. best interpreters) then so to have corrected him. Hart. He doth not correct him so much, as vary from him: and that not on his own, but on S. Cyprians judgement, a Father most ancient. Whose definition if he liked better than he did Augustine's: why might he not take it? Rainoldes. Good reason, if it were as true as S. Augustine's. But what is that definition? Hart. A thief is he, who climbeth up another way, that is, (as Cyprian writeth,) who succeeding no man is ordained of himself. Rainoldes. These words are l Epist. 76. ad Magnum: or as Stapleton citeth it, lib. 1. epist. 6. Cyprians words: but the definition is Stapletons' definition. For Cyprian doth not write them more of a thief, then of a wolf. Hart. He writeth them of Novatian, who entered not in by the door into the sheepfold, but climbed up another way. Therefore he writeth them of a thief. Rainoldes. He writeth them of Novatian, who was a false prophet, and came in sheeps clothing, but inwardly was a ravener. Therefore he writeth them of a wolf. For m Ad Novatian. haereticum. quód lapsis s●e● veniae non est deneganda. Cyprian doth count Novatian the heretic, both a thief, and a wolf. Which proveth that sense that I gave thereof, against your distinction who sever wolves from thieves. But Stapleton in handling this place of Cyprian doth play us three feats: which if they be marked, will show with what art so many sayings of the Fathers are interlaced in his books. First he changeth the words. For where it is in n Epist. 76. ad Magnum. Cyprian, a se ipso ortus est, arose of himself: Stapleton doth read it, a se ipso ordinatus est, is ordained of himself. Hart. It hath been heretofore read so in some prints. Rainoldes. It hath so: but amiss. For Novatian was ordained of others, though unlawfully: as o Hist. eccles. lib. 6. c. 4●. whe● the name of Novatus is given (through error) to Novatianus. Eusebius showeth, and p Epist. 41. ad Cornelium. Cyprian did know. Whereupon, that fa●tie reading is amended in the q Of Manutius at Rome, Morelius at Paris, Pamelius at Anwerpt. later prints out of written copies: and r Annotat. in ep. Cyprian. 76. Neque e●at commoda prior lectio▪ Lordinatus est: Inemo enim a seipso ordinati potest. a note reproving it (lest it creep in again) is left by Pamelius. Whose edition sith s Princip. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 15. juxta emendat● editionem. Stapleton praiseth as best corrected, and followeth it for advantage: to change a word of it here, in such sort, it was a feat and had a purpose. But the second feat doth excel this. For, because Cyprian saith of a thief, that he succeeding no man arose of himself: Stapleton doth take him as though he had defined a thief by those words. Whereof he would have the reader to conceive that they who have succession, and are ordained lawfully, can not be thieves: a thing which Cyprian meant not. But therein he dealeth with the words of Cyprian as if a man should say to define a doctor: a doctor is he, who interpreteth the scriptures, that is (as t Lib. de unitat. ecclesiae. Cyprian writeth) who doth corrupt the gospel, and is a false expounder of it. For these are Cyprians words, and spoken of Novatian Doctors. But they were not spoken to define a doctor. For than they should be verified as well of all doctors, as they be of Doctor Stapleton. Yet he who should define a doctor so, to prove him one, and that out of Cyprian: should serve him such a feat as he doth serve a thief, and take him in the snare which himself hath framed. Hart. As though that of thieves some might be good, and some nought. There may be so of doctors. Rainoldes. No. But, as doctors, some are good, some are nought; and sith that both these qualities are incident into doctors, a doctor should not be defined by either of them: so thieves, some succeed, some do not succeed; and sith that both these qualities are incident into thieves, no one of them can open the nature of a thief, nor both in deed pithily. Wherefore to say in defining a thief, that he succeed no man: it is a juggling feat, which converteth accidents into the shape of substance, and maketh essence of a quality. A feat that is used much by D. Stapleton, & doth amaze the simple who see not the sleight: where they who discern the conveyance of it, esteem it as a feat of sophistry. But the third feat, is a feat of folly. For when he had made four kinds of teachers, the first, pastors; the next, hirelings; the third, thieves; the last, wolves; and granted that they all are called to that office by lawful succession, excepting thieves only: he divideth hirelings into two sorts; and having proved that both of them do teach the truth, concludeth thereupon, that an undoubted certainty of doctrine and faith is knit to succession. Then the which what kind of legerdemain can be more fond? to say in the conclusion, that they who by lawful succession are teachers, do surely teach the truth, because that hirelings do, and pastors: when he had showed before that not only they do succeed lawfully, but also wolves, who teach errors. Hart. It was not his meaning that succession alone hath vnd●uted certainty of doctrine and faith, but, succession with unity. For otherwhere u Staplet princip. doctrine. lib. 5. cap. 5. he saith, that to this prerogative of Bishops and Priests, there are required two conditions: one, that they be lawfully ordained, lest they be thieves, who enter in not by the door; an other, that being lawfully ordained they keep and hold unity, lest they become wolves of pastors. Rainoldes. Then is not truth of doctrine knit necessarily to succession itself: no not though it be lawful and Apostolic succession. Hart. I grant: but with unity. Rainoldes. Then is there much vanity in Stapletons' discourses, and in his vaunt more vanity, that x Lib. 5. ●ap. 9 in spite of heretics a sure undoubted certainty of doctrine and faith is knit * Ip●i succession's Apostolica. to the very succession of the Apostles, to the succession itself. And you, by retaining this unity with Stapleton, have razed to the ground that prerogative of the Pope, whereon you builded his supremacy. For if unity with succession have undoubted certainty of doctrine and faith: all Pastors keeping unity are as free from error in doctrine, as the Pope is. And so if not to err in doctrine be a privilege & proof of the supremacy: all Pastors have as high supremacy by this unity, as the Pope hath. The Pope, I can tell you, will not like this unity. How much the more wisely (me thought) you dealt * In the begi●●ning of the third Division. before, when, laying the foundation of the prerogative Papal, you removed this unity out of the chair, that His unity might sit in it. For whereas S. Austin saith, that God hath set the doctrine of truth in the chair of unity, meaning of all pastors and teachers of the Church which held the faith with concord against the sect and schism of Donatists: you applied that saying to the chair of the Pope, displacing altogether both unity and other pastors. Wherein though you forsook the steps of D. y Princip. doct. lib. 5. cap. 9 Stapleton, who proveth by that very saying of S. Austin, that all Priests and Bishops, whether they be pastors or hirelings, teach the truth: yet you followed that which you had received of your Divines at Rheims. For z In their Annotations 〈◊〉 Luk. 22.31. they do so apply it to the Pope's prerogative. Belike the great benefits flowing from the Pope to the Rhemish Seminary did move them to adventure somewhat in his quarrel more then D. Stapletons' heart did derue him too. Hart No more, then in truth and conscience they might. For though in deed that saying of S. Austin were meant of all Bishops that held the faith with concord; which our Divines of Rheims (I warrant you) knew well enough: yet they might apply it to the Pope, as chiefly belonging unto him, the fountain (as it were) of unity. Rainoldes. But they do apply it to the Pope, as only belonging unto him. For they allege it to prove the prerogative and privilege of the Pope, that howsoever he do in person, yet he cannot err in office. Liberius (say they) in persecution might yield, Marcellinus for fear might commit idolatry, Honorius might fall to heresy, and more than all this, some judas might creep into the office, and yet all this without prejudice of the office and seat, in which (saith S. * Augustin. op. ●66. in 〈◊〉. Austin) our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth. If your Divines of Rheims knew that S. Austin wrote this of all Bishops that held the faith with concord: their sin is the greater. For, that which he made common to the 1 In cathedra unitatis. unity of all: they nip it as proper to the singular seat of one. And, that which he spoke in general 2 De malis praepositis▪ &, de praepositis 〈◊〉 mala facientibus & Dei bona d●centibus. of wicked bishops who say good things and do evil: they abridge it to Popes. As who say that Pope's only could be wicked: not other Bishops also. Hart. If there were perhaps either a slip ofmemory, or other oversight in citing of S. Augustine's words, the matter is not great, so long as the thing is true which they be cited for: namely, that the Pope may err in person, not in office; as a private man, not as Pope. Rainoldes. The matter is so great, that the track thereof will find us out that, which by this distinction you seek to steal away. For you say that the Pope cannot err in office, though he may in person. And why? Because, although his person be wicked: yet in the seat hath God set the doctrine of truth, as S. Austin saith. But as S. Austin saith it, all Bishops, be they good or evil, pastors or hirelings, do sit in that seat. So that none of them can err in office neither, by consequence of your reason. Wherefore if the Pope cannot err, as Pope: a Bishop cannot err, as Bishop. But you will not say (I think) that a Bishop cannot err, as Bishop. Therefore you must yield, that the Pope may err, as Pope. Hart. What if I said that a Bishop can not err, as Bishop? I could maintain it after a sort. Rainoldes. I doubt not of that. But you should mar the Pope's privilege: which if you do- Hart. Nay, I say it not. The fault of your argument is rather in the former part: I mean, in the ground thereofwhich you said as out of S. Austin, that the office and seat, wherein God hath set the doctrine of truth, is common to all Bishops. For, though he may seem to have so thought in a Epist. 166. that epistle: yet in b Epist. 165. the next before it, he giveth that prerogative to the See of Rome. Rainoldes. Unless your Divines of Rheims do abuse him. For out of that epistle c In their Annotations on Matt. 23.2. they teach us this lesson. God preserveth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolic See of Rome, which is in the new Law answerable to the chair of Moses, notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were never so wicked of life: yea though some traitor as ill as judas were Bishop thereof, it should not be prejudicial to the Church, and innocent Christians, for whom our Lord providing said, Do that which they say, but do not as they do. August. Epist. 165. Now, in b Epist. 165. the epistle alleged and quoted for proof of this lesson, S. Austin saith the very same, which in a Epist. 166. the other, of wicked Bishops in general; though applying it in particular to the Bishops of Rome, if any of them had been wicked. Your Divines of Rheims, leave out * De praepositi● malis. the general words: that simple men may think he meant a special privilege of the See of Rome. Whereto they note in the margin: The See of Rome preserved in truth. And upon d In their Annotat. on Matt. 23.3. out of Augustin. contr. literas Petilian. lib. 2. c. 51. & 61. other like places: The dignity of the See of Rome. And that which passeth all, they say that in the new law the See of Rome is answerable to the chair of Moses: the Apostolic See of Rome. I was of opinion (before I saw these gloss of theirs upon the Testament,) that Stapleton had passed all the Pope's retainers in abusing Scriptures and Fathers for the Papacy. But now I perceive and confess, that as e Ezek. 16. 5●. jerusalem did justify her sister Sodom: so the Divines of Rheims have justified their brother Stapleton. For Stapleton, as he hath dealt with greater truth and honesty than they, in many other points▪ so hath f Princip. doctri▪ l. 5. c. 9 he showed in this of Scribes and Pharises sitting in Moses chair, both, that the text is meant of wicked Bishops, all such as say and do not, and, that S. Austin giveth that sense of the text. But the Divines of Rheims have set down S. Augustine's name, and words so, as if he had thought that to be Scribes and Pharises had been a peculiar grace unto the Popes. And, under colour of his authority, and judgement, they force the scriptures also to it, saying, that the chair of Moses in the old law was that the See of Rome is now, The See of Rome is answerable to the chair of Moses. Which sentence is so gross, that unless they had hoped to find swine in England, whom any dung would please that savoured of the Pope, they would not have durst to lay it on the scriptures, no not though their hearts had been as fat as brawn, and their faces as hard as adamant. Hart. What mean you to slander a college of so learned Divines in such sort? Doth not S. Austin mention the See and Bishops of Rome in all the places which they cite, both in the epistles, and against Petilian? Rainoldes. Not in all: in some he doth. But doth he mention him in any of them so, as though the chair of Moses were proper unto him, and he alone should sit in it? Hart. Perhaps, not expressly: yet he doth impliedly, and by a consequent. For else why made he special mention of him more than of others? Rainoldes. Because he had occasion to speak of him specially through the objections of his adversaries. Yet he maketh mention of other Sees and Bishops too, as g Contr. litter. Petilian. lib. 2. cap. 51. of jerusalem. But, the scripture witnesseth that h Rom. 3.4. all men are liars. If I should hence avouch that the Pope is a liar: would you say that I avouch the Pope alone to to be a liar, and not the Turk also? Hart. The Pope may lie by nature▪ but God by grace can free him from it. Rainoldes. The question is, what God doth: not what he can do. Hart. But as he can, so he doth, by privilege of the See of Rome. Rainoldes. As true as Austin saith it. Such a proof, such a privilege. Hart. S. Austin may have said it, if not in the former places, yet in the other, For certes D. i Chronogr. l. 3. ●n Honorio. Genebrard, to prove that the Pope may be an heretic in person, but cannot err judicially, doth bring forth a reason from the chair, that is, the See, and quoteth him for it. For the force (saith he) of the chair is such, that it constraineth them to speak good things and true, who do not good, nor think true: neither doth it suffer them to teach their own things, but the things of God. Augustin. lib. 4. de dectr. Christ cap. 27. & epist. 166. Rainoldes. Of the two places, whence he gathereth this, the former agreeth fully with the later; the later is the same that your Divines of Rheims abuse, as I have showed. In both S. Austin speaketh of wicked Bishops generally, not specially of the Pope. In both he meaneth the office of teaching by [the chair:] the office, committed not to one Bishop, but to all. If Genebrard do take [the chair] in this sense: how proveth it your privilege? If he mean the See of Rome by [the chair:] then is there * Ezek. 22.25. a conspiracy of Prophets among you, as there was among the jews, and Genebrard is one of them. Hart. It is not likely that S. Austin used the name of the chair, for the office of teaching, which is common to all Bishops, as well to hirelings, as to pastors. For he saith that the chair constraineth them to speak good things and true: the chair constraineth them. How are they constrained but by a special grace for the benefit of the Church? And in what Bishops may this grace be showed, but in the Pope's only? Rainoldes. S. Austin, as he noteth that grace in the Popes, so doth he show it in all other Catholic Bishops of his time, whose doctrine the Donatists (against whom he writeth) did not reprove, but their manners. He calleth k August. epist. 166. the chair, (in which they all sit) the chair of wholesome doctrine: and saith, they are constrained to speak good things in it. He openeth the cause why they are constrained: l De doctrine. Christian. lib. 4. cap. 27. to weet, that although they seek their own things; yet 1 Sua docere non audent. they are afraid, and dare not teach their own things, out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established. So that the special grace, whereby they are constrained to speak good things and true: is an ungracious grace, whereby they are induced to seek their wealth or honour. For, m In evang johan. Tractat. 4●. they preach Christ for earthly commodities, n De ve●bi● Dom. Serm. ●●. of money, or dignities, and the praise of man. The love of which things is so mighty with them, that it doth move them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sort as is fit to get or keep the things which they love. And hereupon S. Austin saith, they are constrained and enforced to it: as o Gal. 2.14. Paul said to Peter that he constrained the Gentiles to do like the jews, because by his example he moved them effectually; as p In Cice 1. de ●micitia. Laelius told his friends that they constrained him to grant them a thing, which they by earnest suit entreated. For that he used the word [constrain] in that sense: himself hath declared q Libr. de pastoribus cap. 10. otherwhere, by saying, that 2 Velint nolint pastores ut perveniant ad lac & lanam, verba Dei dicturi sunt. shepherds (he meaneth hirelings) will they, nill they, will say the words of God that they may come to milk and wool. The speech may seem harsh, that shepherds will they, nill they, will say the words of God: but he speaketh so, to note that the love of milk and of wool, that is, of commodities, constraineth them to feed the sheep with God's word, whether they like of it, or no. Now because the doing hereof is in, and by, their office of teaching, which the chair betokened, as, the chair of Moses: therefore r De doctrine. Christian. l. 4. ●. 27. he saith that Moses chair did constrain the Scribes and Pharises to say good things; and that s Epist. 166. amongst Christians, hirelings are constrained to say them in the chair too. As if I should say, when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Popery, a worldling against worldliness, an hypocrite against hypocrisy, (which some times they do:) the pulpit constraineth them to preach so. You should mistake me, if you should imagine that I mean our pulpit hath a special grace to keep all preachers still from error. Even so do they S. Austin, who dream of such a chair in his words. Howbeit, if you think that a chair with him is of greater force, than a pulpit with us: yet you can not think but that his words spoken of the Scribes and Pharises are meant of all Bishops, who say and do not. For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharises often, even in the same t Contr. litter. Petilian. l. ●. c, 7. & l. 2. c. 6. & l. 3. c. 2. book which your Rhemists allege. Wherefore if the Pope by virtue of the chair cannot err as Pope: then an other Bishop cannot err as Bishop by virtue of the same chair. But any other Bishop, you grant, may err as Bishop. Therefore you must grant, the Pope may err as Pope. Hart. Nay, I will grant rather that S. Austin erred, and laid a false ground: if he do impart the privilege of the chair to all other Bishops as well as to the Pope. Rainoldes. Then you must grant withal that Genebrard and your Rhemists have abused S. Austin, to bring him as for that, which he is flat against. But I will defend S. Austin in a truth: and prove that the argument which I have grounded on him is so sure and sound, that you must needs grant it, unless you will be froward wilfully. For what think you, first: may a Bishop err as Bishop? Hart. Who doth deny it? Rainoldes. There is one in u De repub. 〈◊〉 1. Thrasymachus. Plato who saith that a magistrate cannot err, as magistrate; nor a Prince, as Prince. Hart. Not a Prince? Why? Rainoldes. Because a Prince is, as it were, a physician of the common wealth: and a physician can not err, as physician. For in that he erreth, he misseth of his art. Wherefore, by want of physic he erreth, not by physic. And so (to speak exactly) no artificer can err: at the least he cannot err as an artificer. For he which erreth, erreth because he hath not skill enough, and not because he hath skill. Hart. But yet an artificer may err in practice of his art: as a physician, in curing sick men: a Prince, in ruling the common wealth. And therefore, me thinketh, that shift is but a quiddity. For an artificer may be justly said to err as an artificer, when he doth err in that which he dealeth with in respect of his art. At least, if he err not therein as an artificer, he erreth as an evil artificer. Rainoldes. That is true, as an evil artificer. Hart. Then your man in Plato must amend his speech: and say, that a Prince may err as an evil Prince, though he cannot, as good; and a magistrate, as an evil magistrate. Rainoldes. And of a physician he must amend it too: and say, that a physician if he cure not the sick well, doth err as an evil physician. Hart. He must so. Rainoldes. Likewise if an auditor do miss in casting of accounts: he erreth as an evil auditor. Hart. An evil auditor. Rainoldes. And if a cook do miss in dressing of meat, he erreth as an evil cook; a tailor in making garments, as an evil tailor; a shoemaker in making shoes, as an evil shoemaker. Hart. What else? and all artificers after the same sort. Rainoldes. Nor only artificers, as they are called commonly, but all, in whose functions skill and art is needful for the discharge of them: whether they be civil, as lawyers, judges, counseilors; or ecclesiastical, as deacons, pastors, doctors. Do you not mean so? Hart. I mean of all such, except the Pope only. Rainoldes. You prevent me before you need. I come not to the Pope yet. Hart. No: but I see what you go about. You would fish out of me, that a Pope may err as an evil Pope. Rainoldes. You are too suspicious. I meant to conclude, that a Bishop may err as an evil Bishop For it is a Bishop's duty, p ●. Tim. 2.15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to divide the word of truth aright. If he err, in dividing it: he erreth in a point of the Bishop's duty. Shall we say that he erreth as an evil Bishop? Hart. We must so, it seemeth, by proportion to the rest. Rainoldes. But perhaps we have dealt too hardly with the rest. And now in Bishops I perceive it. For would you call S. Austin, and S. Cyprian, evil Bishops? Hart. Evil? God forbidden. Rainoldes. Yet they have erred sometimes in dividing the word of truth: as you confess of the q Ad jubaianun, epist. 73. & in council. Carthag. one; the other r ●ibris duobus retractionum. showeth of himself. And s jam. 3.2. we do all offend in many things. Even the best physician doth err some times in curing; the best Prince, in ruling. Through default, I grant: because they are not good enough. And to speak exactly, t Mar. 1●. 18. there is none good, but one, even God. But if we speak as men are commonly wont: we may not call the best, evil. Wherefore I am loath to say, that a Bishop erreth as an evil Bishop, if he err in dividing the word of truth. I had rather say, that he erreth as Bishop offending in a point of duty. And so would I mitigate our speeches of the rest: not to call them evil, whom all account good; but to note that good, in men, hath imperfection. Hart. Do so, if you list. Rainoldes. Then we will bid the sophister in Plato farewell: and say that a magistrate may err, as magistrate: and a Prince, as Prince. Hart. I was of that mind at the first. Rainoldes. And a Doctor, as Doctor; & a Bishop, as Bishop. Hart. True: and likewise the like. Rainoldes. Is not the Pope a Bishop? the Bishop of Rome, I trow. Hart. I thought that hither you would at last. And therefore I did purposely except him by name. For it is true in all Bishops, save in the Bishop of Rome. Rainoldes. I know you did except him: but with what reason? For if it be true in general of Princes, that they may err as Princes; it followeth in special that any Prince may err as Prince: the Queen of England, as Queen; the King of Scotland, as King; the Germane Emperor, as Emperor; and so forth all the rest, whose office is Princely. This you grant. Do you not? Hart. Yes, it is so in Princes, I grant. Rainoldes. Then, in like sort, if it be true of Bishops that they may err as Bishops, it followeth that any Bishop may err as Bishop: the Patriarch of Venice, as Patriarch: the Cardinal of Alba, as Cardinal; the Pope of Rome, as Pope; and so forth all the rest, whose office is Bishoply. Doth not reason teach you, that you must grant this also? Hart. No. Because the state and condition of Bishops is not like to Princes in this consideration. For amongst Princes there is none privileged by virtue of his office not to err, as Prince. But amongst Bishops the Pope of Rome is privileged not to err, as Pope. Rainoldes. The date of this privilege is out, M. Hart: it cannot serve you now. For yourself misliked Thrasymachus in Plato as shifting with a quiddity, for saying that a Prince cannot err as Prince. Hart. And I mislike him still. Rainoldes. You confessed also, that an artificer may be justly said to err as an artificer, when he doth err in that which he dealeth with in respect of his art. Hart. I did so. What then? Rainoldes. And you thought it meet, that we should say a Bishop erreth as Bishop, when he erreth in a peint of the Bishop's duty. Hart. And this I grant too. Rainoldes. How can you deny then, but the Pope may justly be said to err as Pope, when he erreth in a point of the Popes duty? And sith a point thereof, is, to divide the word of truth aright, belonging to him, as to all Bishops, by the chair & seat, that is, the office of teaching, wherein God hath set them: the Pope is not privileged by virtue of the chair from erring as Pope, more than all Bishops are privileged as Bishops. That, if an other Bishop may err notwithstanding as Bishop, which you grant: you must needs grant the Pope may also err as Pope. Yea, though all Popes were pastors or hirelings, and none of them thieves: yet might they err as Popes too. For S. Austin and S. Cyprian erred, as Bishops. Yet they were pastors both. Hart. Nay, the Pope certainly can not err as Pope, that is to say, in office: though he may in person, as Pope Honorius did. Rainoldes. Nay in Pope Honorius you are cast certainly. For I have proved now that he wrote that as Pope, which he was condemned for: and therefore erred as Pope. Hart. It may seem he wrote it as Pope, & so erred. But that is not enough to prove that the Pope may err in office, as I take it. Rainoldes. The sixth Division. To prove it then more fully: let us see first, what is the office of the Pope, that so it may appear whether he may err in office, or no. S. Peter the Apostle writing unto Elders, by whom he meaneth Bishops and all who have the charge of souls (as u Concil. Trident. Session. 23. de reformat. c. 1. you acknowledge:) x 1. Pet. 5.2. Feed ye, saith he, the flock of God which is committed to you, taking care for it, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; not as though you were Lords over Gods heritage's, but that ye may be ensamples to the flock. Wherein he chargeth them to preach the word of God, and lead a godly life: that they may feed the Church both with doctrine and example. This is the Pope's office, I think, if he be a Bishop: for it doth touch them all. But what think you of it, lest I lose my labour through an [except the Pope:] doth it touch all Bishops, or all save him only? Hart. It doth touch them all. Rainoldes. The Council of Trent hath made One under Paul the third, Session. 6. de refo●mat. cap. 1. the other vn●er Pius the forth, Se●●. 23. de re●ormat. cap. 1. two decrees against the sin of nonresidence; in the later whereof it proveth that all they who have the charge of souls are bound to be resident, because they ought to feed their flock with the word, with sacraments, with prayers, and with good works; and feed it so they cannot, if they forsake it, as hirelings, and be not resident upon it. Beside the which necessary consequence of reason, z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the term whereby S. Peter doth note the care, that they should take, importeth as much. For it signifieth to look too, & as it were to watch over: to look, as shepherds to the flock, a Gen. 31.44. Luc. 2.8. which they must day and night, where there are wolves and wild beasts: to watch as b Ez●k. 3.17. Heb. 13.17. watchmen in the city, a needful thing in peace, but in war specially. Wherefore sith every flock of Christ is in danger of c joh. 10.12. the wolf, that is the devil, d 1. Pet. 5.8. who seeketh whom he may devour; and e Reu. 12.7. Satan with his Angels, even with f Eph. 6. 1●. spiritual wickednesses, is still in war against the faithful: it followeth that all Bishops ought to be resident on their charge, all pastors to attend their flocks, all watchmen to regard their cities. Do you allow of this too? Hart. So: as the Council hath decreed it. Rainoldes. By your confession then upon the scripture, with the Council, the office of a Bishop requireth three things: that he preach faithfully, that he live uprightly, and that he be resident on his charge. But the Bishop of Rome may err in each of these. Therefore in office he may err. How say you? May he not? Hart. He cannot err in them all. Rainoldes. He may err in office, if he may err in any of them: for each of them toucheth his office, you grant. But I prove, in them all. And to begin with the last: he may be nonresident. For he was so by the space of threescore and ten years together: all the which time, g Platin. de 〈◊〉 Pontificum. Onuphr. in R●m. Pontif. ● Chron. seven Popes, who followed one an other, Clemens the fifth, john the two and twentéeth, Benedict the twelfth, Clemens the sixth, Innocent the sixth, Vrban the fifth, & Gregory the eleventh, abode first at Lions in France, then at Auinion, and never came as much as once to Rome. Is not this true? Hart. Yet you may not say that they were nonresidents. For the Pope hath charge over the whole world, not over Rome only. So that wheresoever he abideth, he is resident. Rainoldes. And wheresoever he abideth not, he is nonresident. Will not that follow? For he that hath two benefices smaller than Rome, * is not resident on the one, if he be resident on the other. And whatsoeveryou imagine of the Pope's residence upon the whole world: unless he be resident at Rome, he is nonresident. Which himself acknowledged, even Gregory the eleventh, the last of the seven: who therefore went at length from Auinion to Rome. For h Platin. in vita Gregor. vndeci●i. the chiefest cause that moved him thereto, was the speech of a certain Bishop. Whom when he had asked, why he went not to his charge, from which a Pastor ought not to be so long absent: the Bishop answered him, And why most holy Father, go not you to yours? The Pope was not so wise to reply, as you do, that the whole world was his charge: but being moved with the just reproof of his fault he went to Rome strait. And when after his death the Cardinals were to choose a new Pope: i In vita Vrba●i sexti. the clergy and people of Rome beseeching them to choose an Italian (lest, if a French m●n were chosen, the Court should into France again) said, that it was me●te the Pope should be resident upon the Papal See. Whereby you may perceive that the Pope, and clergy, and people of Rome thought the Pope nonresident when he abode in France. What think you? that he was so? or that they erred who thought so? Hart. You are too full of questions, by which you seek to entangle me. Go forward with you● argument: and when you have done, I will answer to it. Rainoldes. I seek not to entangle you, but with the truth: wherein I wish your company. But if I should go forward alone, till I had done; my pains might be perhaps either fruitless or peerless. Wherefore I must desire you to go forward with me, and answer to my question, whether you think the seven Popes were nonresidents. Hart. They were Frenchmen all, and, upon a fancy belike to their country, they abode in France to the great hurt of Italy and Rome. They might have done better to have stayed at Rome still: but what then? Rainoldes. That is as much (in gentler words) as if you said; they did amiss in it. The Pope may offend then in that point of duty which requireth residence. The next, of godly life, he may offend in also. Which I have proved already by sundry examples: but if you will you shall have more, k Theodorie. Niem. in Nem. vn●on. tra●●●t. 6. c 39 & de Schismate lib. ●. & 2. Vrban the sixth, and Boniface the ninth▪ Hart. It is superfluous to rehearse more of their stories. We grant, as I have said, that they may err in manners. And in deed nonresidence is a fault rather of manners, then of doctrine. Wherefore though they may err in residence and life: they cannot err in doctrine. And that is it, which we defend. Rainoldes. I speak not of their doctrine now, but of their office. In two points whereof you grant that they may err. The third is as manifest. For he which now is Pope, Gregory the thirteenth, preacheth not at all. If he preach not at all: he preacheth not faithfully. If he preach not faithfully: then may he err in that point too. Hart. How know you, that he preacheth not? Rainoldes. Yourself did tell me so; and it is the likelier, because l Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 4. Anton. Amic. praefat. in C●●is●ran. de Papae & concilii au●oritat, they, who commend him, commend him for a lawyer and not for a Divine. Hart. But his predecessor Pius the fifth did visit often times the Churches of the city, and preached to the clergy, as m In commentar. rer. in orbegestar. Surius noteth of him. Rainoldes. That is a greater proof, that the Popes use not commonly to preach. For Surius doth likewise note of him also, that he suffered fewer Courtesans in Rome, and them in streets less famous: because they dwelled before 1 In vicis publicis, & splendidis aedibus, magno numer●. in the high streets & gorgeous houses in great number. And peradventure Surius who praiseth Pius for his preaching, made the most of it. Pope Pius was alive, when Friar Surius praised him. Moreover Surius reckoneth this amongst his praises, that in a procession he was not carried on men's shoulders (as Popes are wont to be) but 2 Cum max impopuli aedi●icatione pedibu● ingredient he went a foot to the great edifying of the people. Small preaching of the Pope may be praised as great: when his going a foot shall edify the people so. Neither yet doth Surius report of his preaching more than to the clergy. Of sermons to the people he giveth him this praise, that he vouchsafed them of his presence at solemn times. Belike he did edify the people enough with going a foot. But if Pope Pius had preached to the people as well as to the clergy: one swallow makes not summer; his preaching had not done his duty. M. Pacie, Secretary to king Henry the eighth, and his Ambassador in Italy, (a man who saw farther into the state of Popes, than Surius) doth write n Ricard. P●caeus lib. de 〈◊〉 qui ex do●trina percipitur. that Pope julius the second was requested to make one Giles, (a learned Friar,) Cardinal. To the which intent when it was alleged that the man had learning & preached diligently: nay marry, quoth the Pope, that is the only reason, why I can not make him Cardinal with safe conscience, that he may preach the word of God the better still, which he might not if he were Cardinal. For that is very far from the dignity and custom of Cardinals, (saith Pacie,) and therefore Pope julius, as he was a Pastor most careful of the flock, would not agree to that request. Now, if it be so strange for Cardinals to preach: what think you of the Popes themselves, who are more occupied with affairs of state, and may less attend so base things as preaching? As the example showeth of the same julius. Who bending all his powers ( o Guicciard. haste. Ital lib. 6. as soon as he had bought the Popedom) p Onuphr. de vit. Po●t. in julio secund. partly to recover, and partly to enlarge the patrimony of Peter, that is the Pope's dominion temporal: he moved war q Guicciard. lib. 7 against the Lords of Bononie, Perusium, & the land about, r lib. 8. against the Venetians, lib. 9 the Duke of Ferrara, the State of Genua, and t lib. 10. & 11. the French king. Wherein to have his purposes, he gave himself wholly to the conveyance of devices, confederacies, practices, with Princes, peoples, Signories, English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Swissers, Italian, and set them all by the ears together. Neither did he wage these wars, by others only, that himself might preach the mean while at Rome: but himself was present at u lib. 7. & 9 some of them in person. Amongst which he bore himself most valiantly at the siege of Mirandula. Whether he came twice, in the deep of winter, through great cold, and snow, and did a captains duty both in words, and deeds: yea, pitched his tent so near the town wall, that the shot of the artillery had twice almost killed him; it killed two even fast by him. And surely (saith x lib. 9 Guicciardin) it was 1 Co●a notabi●e, & molto nu●●●. a thing worth the noting, and very strange to men's eyes, that the king of France, a secular Prince, fresh of age, strong of body, brought up in armour from his youth, should rest himself at home, dealing by captains, in a war which was made chief against him: and of the other side to see that the Pope 2 Vicario di Christo. the vicar of Christ in earth, an old man, and sickly, and brought up pleasurably at ease, should come in person to a war 3 Suscita●a de lui c●ntro a Chris●●●ni. which he had made against Christians, and come into the camp unto a base town: where putting himself (as a captain of soldiers) to labours & perils, he retained nothing of a Pope but only the robes, and the name. To be short, the captain, the Pope (I would say,) was troubled so with warring that he had no leisure to think of making sermons. y Melanchthon. Brus●hius, Ducherius, 〈◊〉 Scriptor. Britann. Centur. 1. Some do write of him, that when he was going once out of Rome against the French men with an army, he cast S. Peter's keys into the river of Tiber, saying, sith Peter's keys can not defend us, let us try what the sword of Paul will do. Which though peradventure it be but a jest, yet showeth it a truth, z Guicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 11. that julius did labour to advance his Church by war in things temporal, which he should have edified by godliness in things spiritual, that is, for Peter's keys, he took the sword of Paul: not that sword of Paul whereof he saith, a 2. Cor. 10.4. the weapons of our warfare are not carnal; but that sword with which Pope b O●osius hi●t. lib. 7. cap. 7. Nero did behead S. Paul. All Popes have not had so much to do with war, as julius the second: nor all so much with peace, as Gregory the thirteenth. But for these thousand years, almost, they have been proling to keep their State, or to increase it: and for these last five hundred, sith the Roman Church, of small, weak, and (in a manner) a 1 Imperatorum ancilla. handmaid of the Emperors, is become 2 Domina omnium. the lady of Emperors, nay, of all, (as c In Roman. Pontif. praefation. ad Lectorem Onuphrius writeth,) they have been troubled more about it. Wherefore though some of them, it may be, have preached, sometimes, for a fashion, at solemn feasts, after the order of d Sacra●. ceremon. eccles. Rom. lib. 3. their book of ceremonies: yet that which the duty of a faithful pastor & steward doth require e Luc. 12.42. to give the household meat in season, f Act. 20.20. to teach both publicly and privately, g 2. Tim. 4.2. to be instant in season & out of season, to improve, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine: they were * 2. Tim. 2.4. entangled so with the affairs of this life, that they could not do it. At least, if you say, that they, who did preach, discharged faithfully the whole duty: with what face can you say it ofthem, who preached not, as Gregory the lawyer, and julius the warrior? Hart. You are not sure that neither of them did ever preach. But if they were not able to preach by themselves: yet they might preach by others. And so I am sure that our most holy Father Gregory the thirteenth doth faithfully discharge that duty. Rainoldes. By others? What meaneth that? Hart. As if a man that oweth money, should procure his friend, or send his servant, to pay it: he payeth it by an other, because an other payeth it for him. Princes have their officers in peace, in war their captains. Themselves do not all things which they are said to do: and yet in deed they do them, because they do them by others. Rainoldes. O: by others. I understand it. You mean as Pope julius, though he were in the camp, and warred by himself: yet he was in the pulpit, and preached by Friar Giles. And when Pope Leo the tenth (next after julius) made h Frater Egi●●us, nunc crea●us Car●ina●is ut taceat. Ricard. Pacae. lib. de fruct. qui ex ●oct. percip. Friar Giles Cardinal, that he might hold his peace: then other Friars stepped up in his room, and Pope Leo preached by them in like sort, while i iovius de vita Leon. decim. lib. 4. by himself he played the wanton. But Christ when he commanded Peter to feed his sheep: meant not that he should take his Princely sports and pleasures in * The name of the Pope's most delicate gar●en or paradise, so called, as you would say, 〈◊〉 to see. Belvedere by himself, and preach the word of God by others. If you think the Pope may be discharged so for this point of a Bishop's duty: it was an oversight that you forgot it in the former. For you might say as well, that if he be not resident by himself, he may by others: and if he live not godly by himself, he may by others. And thus, although the Pope be damned by himself: yet with your distinction he may be saved also. He may be saved by others. Hart. The case in these things is not like. For all are bound to lead a godly life by themselves: and he, who is not resident by himself, is not resident. Rainoldes. So he, who doth not preach by himself, doth not preach. For therefore is a pastor bound to personal residence, that he may attend his flock by himself, & preach unto it personally. Which you may learn by the decree of the Council of Lateran made against nonresidence, & pluralities, a root of it. k Because (saith the Council) some men through exceeding covetousness do seek to get divers dignities ecclesiastical, and benefices more than one, against the ordinances of holy rules and canons, so that 1 being scarce able to execute & discharge one office they take unto themselves the stipends of many: we command straightly that this be not done hereafter. When therefore a benefice or charge ecclesiastical is to be bestowed, 2 let such a person be sought for it, as may be resident on the place, and perform the duty thereof by himself. The cause then why persons are charged to be resident, is, that they may perform the duty ( * which phi●se of ours answereth to thereof the 〈…〉. serve the cure, as it is termed) by themselves, and not by vicar's. Wherefore if they may preach (which is the duty) by others: they may be resident by others. To say they maybe resident by others, were ridiculous. It is no reason therefore to hold that they may preach by others. Hart. No? What say you then to l those rules of law: A man may do that by an other, which he may do by himself, and, he that doth a thing by an other, it is as well as if he do it by himself? Rainoldes. I say that m rules of law must be expounded by the law, whence they are taken: and there are few of them which suffer not exception. As here we have to weigh, that men may commit some things to others to be done, some things they may not. A thing which they may commit unto others, n ●●Ita autem▪ D. de administ. & pe●i●●t●torū. l. non solus. D. de liber. causa. l. quod jussu. D. de regulis ●u●is, l. procurator. D. de procuratoribus, & defensoribus. if they do it by others, it is as if them selves had done it. So Princes by their Council, their Lieutenants, their officers do look unto their state, and minister justice and judgement. So men in law-matters do deal by attorneys; in traffic, by factors; in household, by servants: in all affairs of life, by friends, whom they do put in trust. But if a thing be such as you ought of duty to do it personally yourself: than you do amiss if you commit it to an other, and, though an other do it, your are not discharged. As, for example, o L. inter artifices. D. de ●●●●tionibus. amongst workmen there is a great difference both of wit, and nature, and knowledge, and instruction. A man who desireth to have a fair and strong house, chooseth him a workman, whom he knoweth to be a wise and skilful builder, and covenanteth with him to build his house thus and thus. If this builder do not build the house himself, but get an other to do it: he hath built it by another, but he hath not discharged his duty. Why? Because the owner did regard his skill, when he made choice of him, and meant that himself should be the builder of it. The like may be observed in Noble men and Counsellors, whom Princes put in trust with matters of importance. For when they are chosen to do this or that in respect of their industry (as p c. is cui●de o●fic. & potest. ●udicis delegat. 〈◊〉 Se●t. the law doth term it) that is of special virtues by which they are the fit unto this or that: their allegiance bindeth them to do it themselves; they may not do it by others. As, the Earl of Warwick, when the queens Majesty appointed him General over the army, which she sent against the Rebels in the North ( * ●ander. de v●●ib. monar. eccles. l. 7. Whom Pius the fifth, your preaching Pope, had stirred up:) he might not send an other General in his steed; himself in person was to go; because to that charge, his prowess, his valour, his wisdom, his faith, his industry was chosen. Now, the Church of God is a q 1. Pet. 2.5. spiritual house: and his people must r 1. Tim. 1.18. fight against the Rebels of the North, I mean, the flesh, the world, the devil. Christ, the Lord of the house, and Prince of the people, hath ordained Bishops to be the s 1. Cor. 3.10. builders of the one, and t Heb. 13.17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. captains of the other. And he hath chosen them in respect of their industry, that is, that they be u Tit. 1.8. wise, righteous, holy, temperate, x 1. Tim. 3.2. modest, watchful, apt to teach, fit as you would say to build an house, and guide an army. But he that is so chosen must discharge the duty by himself, and not by others: according to the law, whence your rules are taken. Wherefore those rules of law cannot discharge Bishops, and therefore not the Popes, from preaching by themselves in person. Hart. That y 〈◊〉 cui. de office & potest. ●udicis delegat. in Sext. law, which your exception against my rules is grounded on, hath an exception too. For it saith, that he, whose industry is chosen, may not commit that charge unto an other, which is committed unto him, unless it be expressed in the tenor of the commission, that he may do the thing * pierce, vel per ●lium. by himself, or by another. Rainoldes. True. But this exception hath nothing to your purpose. For it is not expressed in the tenor of the commission, which Christ hath made to Bishops, that they may do their duty by themselves, or by others. Hart. Why, then if a Bishop be sick, extremely sick, so that he is not able to move out of his bed, much less to come into the pulpit: yet he is bound still to preach by himself, because it is his duty. Rainoldes. Nay, if he be sick, it is his duty then not to preach by himself. God hath laid an other duty upon him, to look to his health that he may do his former duty: or, (if his appointed time be fulfilled,) to think upon a higher duty. But by this reason no Christian is bound to come to Church by himself. For he is not bound if he be sick extremely. Neither hath the Pope need to preach by others. For, if he be sick that he cannot preach, he is discharged before God: yea, although no other do preach in his steed. Hart. But it is better yet, if he supply his room by others. Rainoldes. Be it better. What then? Hart. If sickness may excuse him: then imprisonment may. Rainoldes. And banishment, and death, and whatsoever difficulty, whereby God depriveth him of power to preach. What then? Hart. And why may not then the great affairs of the Church's state excuse him too? Rainoldes. What else? As Pope julius, that he may lie in camp to beat Mirandula to the ground; that he may recover Ravenna, and Ceruia; that he may conquer Placentia, and Parma; that he may raise England, and Spain, against France; France, and Germany, against Venice; Venice, and Rome, against Genua; them both, and others, against Ferrara; Italy, against itself; the Swissers, against all; z Guieciard. hist. Ital. l. ●. saving that the Swissers played the Swissers with him, that is, for lack of pay and food they forsook him. Hart. You take a delight in discovering still the frailties of the Popes, as cursed a Gen. 9 ●2. Cham did the privities of his father Noe. The great affairs that I meant of the Church's state, are the affairs of religion & government of the Church throughout all Christendom: whereof the charge belongeth unto them by duty, and doth greatly busy them. Rainoldes. How far I am from Cham, and your Pope from Noah: I could declare easily, if it pertained to my purpose. But I am the willinger to bear this reproach, because, when S. Bernard reproved the corruptions of the Court of Rome, he did incur it too, and hath defended me against it. For that which he said on lesser occasion, I may more justly say on greater: b Bernard. epi●t▪ 42. ad Archiep, Senon. I speak things naked, nakedly; neither discover I privy shame, but open shamelessness I reprove. I would to God that these things were done privately, and in chambers. I would that we alone had seen them and heard them. I would that the 1 Mode●●i Noe. noah's of our time had left us some what whereby we might cover them in part. Now, when all men see that which is 2 Mundi fab●lam. a common talk throughout the world: shall we alone hold our peace? My head is bruised round about; the blood doth gush out on all sides; and shall I think that I must cover it? Whatsoever I lay thereon, it will be bloodied: and it will turn to greater shame and confusion, that I should seek to cover that which cannot be covered. These things S. Bernard wrote about the time of Pope Eugenius the third, (above four hundred years ago,) when Popes either had, or made a semblance of more honesty. What would he have written, if he had lived since, under Boniface the eighth, or Vrban the sixth, or Boniface the ninth, or john the three and twentéeth, or Paul the second, or Alexander the sixth, or Leo the tenth, or him of whom I talked last, the warrior julius? Wherefore if I should seek to cover them now, when in Bernard's time they could not be covered: the shame which he feared might fall upon me, and mine own conscience would condemn me. Look you to it, M. Hart, who sooth up those men of sin in their iniquities; and call their furies, frailties; and make a Noah, of a e Gen. 10.9. Nimrod; and bring the fall of Saints to excuse the wilful outrages of thieves and robbers. You say that you meant by the great affairs of the Church's state, the affairs of religion and government of the Church throughout all Christendom. Whatsoever you meant: that is the truth which I showed by the affairs of Pope julius. For in the Pope's language, the name of [the Church] doth signify the Papacy, that is, the dominion and princehood of the Pope, in things both temporal and spiritual. So that when julius warred, either to recover, or to enlarge the bounds of his dominion temporal, then was he about the affairs of the Church. And this is apparent by the Italian history written of those affairs: d 〈…〉 lib. ●. wherein Faenza, and the cities which he requireth the Venetians to restore unto him, are called cities of the Church; and e 〈◊〉 6. & 7. when he seizeth on them by force or composition, they return to the government and obedience of the Church; and if his martial feats do stick in some distress, f lib. 7. & 9 though things go hard (quoth julius) yet God will help his Church; and the means by which, the ends whereto he fighteth, are invested all with the Church's title, g lib. 8. & 9 the captains of the Church, and armies of the Church, against the Church's enemies, & rebels to the Church; the Church's horsemen; the Church's footmen, the Church's subjects, the Church's vasals: in a word, the things which the Pope possesseth, they are the Church's state; the h lib. ●. Church's state is said to be in peril and danger, when he is like to lose somewhat; i lib. 9 he bindeth the Spanish king to find him yearly three hundred men of arms to defend the Church's state; k lib. 7. he sendeth word to sundry princes, that the French king will bring a mighty host to oppress the Church's state; l lib. 9 the French king offereth to the Emperor, that he will help him * Ad occupar Roma & tutto lo stato della chiesa, come appartenente di ●agi●ne all Imperio. by force of arms to get Rome and all the Church's state, as belonging by right and reason to the Empire. This is the state in deed, about the affairs whereof the Popes are busied. The affairs of religion and government of the Church throughout all Christendom, are but pretences and pillars to support this state. For, as m Epist. 42. 2● archiep. Senon. Bernard wrote of the Court of Rome, that they who went thither to multiply their church-promotions, should there find favourers of their lusts; 1 Non quod val de Romani curent. not that the Romans care greatly how things go, 2 Sed quia valde diligunt munera. but because they greatly love bribes, and follow rewards: so men ofskill and judgement, who knew the Popes thoroughly, and faithfully set forth their lives, have opened this secret and mystery of their state, (as it hath been managed since it grew to majesty,) that they mind the propping of their own kingdom, while they pretend the worship of Christ, as n Mat. 2.8. Herode did. Pope o Guiccia●● lib. 7. julilius (saith his story) did pretend godliness and zeal of religion: but it was ambition that moved him to his warlike enterprises. When I name Pope julius, I name him for example. For he was neither first nor last of those Herodes. But you may guess the rest by one. Hart. In deed they have warred, I grant, in time of need: and why should they not? Though I will not defend ambition in any of them. But this I will defend that they might lawfully provide for the maintenance of their state temporal. For what saith S. Paul? p 1. Tim. 5. ●. If any man have not care of his own, and specially of his domesticals: he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. Wherefore you must consider that the Pope sustaineth a double person as it were: the one of a Prince, the other of a Bishop. As a Prince, he governeth his temporal dominion: as a Bishop, his spiritual. His spiritual charge is all the church of Christ: his temporal, a part of it. And so, though both of them concern after a sort the state of the Church: yet his affairs spiritual, which stretch through all Christendoom, do differ from his temporal, which touch the Church of Rome chiefly. For example, q Sigon de regno Ital. lib. 8. Leo the ninth, a very good Pope, above five hundred years since, when the Normans spoilt the land of the Church and he had cursed them for it, but could not conquer them by curses: he got of the Emperor a strong band of soldiers, whom he lead in person himself against the varletes, and met them in the field manfully. At the same time Michael the Patriarch of Constantinople denied the supremacy of the Church of Rome, and claimed it to his own See. Whereof when Pope Leo heard, he sent three legates to Constantinople, to root out that heresy. Now the former of these things he did as Prince, against the Normans, who set upon his temporal dominion with arms: the later, as Bishop, against the Patriarch, who taught heresy, a point of his spiritual charge. Affairs of this later sort let me name (for difference sake) the church-affairs; the former, the affairs of state. And so it shall appear, what injury you do them, whom spitefully you call Herodes. For you say that the affairs which they are busied about, are their affairs of state. Whereas in very truth the affairs of the Church do busy them a great deal more: to see that the Catholic religion be taught, that errors be suppressed; to provide dioceses of good and learned Bishops, and parishes of able pastors: to hear appeals, determine causes, receive supplications, excommunicate the wicked, absolve the repentant: to do the whole function of supreme heads of the Church. And may not these affairs so weighty in charge, in number so many, be a just excuse for them if they preach not? Or will you slander them that they omit that duty for their state-affairs, when they omit it for the Church? Rainoldes. I would to God you were able to prove that I slander them, and speak more spitefully then truly ofthem. Better had it been and would be for poor Christians: of whom they have murdered more souls, nay more thousands of souls, in one country, with their Herodian practices; than r Mat. 2.16. joseph. Antiquitat. Iudaicar. lib. 17. cap. 8. Herode murdered bodies through his whole dominion. And this have they done by that profane policy, wherewith I justly charged them: even by pretending the Church's state, to plant their own; and using the shows of government spiritual to get them temporal advancement. For under the colour of binding and losing, the credit of forgiving sins, the title of S. Peter's keys, their ordering of the whole Church, and highest power in all Church-causes: they have raised up the tower of their Papacy with the spoils of Christendom, and have devoured men as bread, and sold the poor for silver, that they might make themselves strong in power and rich in wealth. The first, and chiefest means, whereby they finished this work, and having built the walls by climbing up above Bishops, did lay the roof of it by climbing up above Emperors, was excommunication. Which they, not content to use against their Soverains as a spiritual ceasure, did rack it to a civil punishment; removing them, not only from the communion of the faithful, but also from dominion and rule over their subjects; and putting them, as from the Church, so from the Empire too. When Emperor Leo the third, desirous to abolish the worship of Images (which then was creeping in) had caused them to be defaced, and thereupon did punish some who withstood it: s Sigon. de regno Ital. lib. 3. Pope Gregory the second did excommunicate him in that Papal sort, 1 Ne ei aut tributum darent, aut alia ratione obedirent, indixit. forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute, or obey him. Upon this sentence and inhibition of the Pope, a great part of Italy rebelled against their Emperor resiant at Constantinople, and laid violent hands upon his Deputies & Lieutenants, of whom they slew two, and put out the eyes of the third. By reason of which uproar and tumults ensuing, part of the country, that rebelled, was conquered by the king of Lombardie: Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedom fell unto the Pope. So the Pope, who till that time had been a Bishop only, * In the year of Christ 727. became a Prince by treason. But the Emperor sent another Deputy into Italy to stay those attempts. Who entering into league with the king of Lombard's, they joined hosts together and besieged Rome. The Pope perceiving that the garrisons and munitions wherewith he had fenced and fortified the city, were not strong enough to make his party good against them: trusting on the king of Lombard's devotion, he went out with a solemn procession unto him, and with many sweet words of Peter and Paul, 2 Principes A●●tolorum. Princes of the Apostles, who 3 ●ret●oso suo 〈…〉. with their precious blood had consecrated the church of Rome, and will the godly virtuous catholic king of Lombard's hurt the city of that church? and draw on him 4 P●acula a 〈…〉 ●●igenda. the vengeance of Peter and Paul? he did entreat the king to give the siege over, and make the Deputy and him friends. afterward a Duke one of the kings subjects, intending to revolt from him, did join in league and friendship with the Roman Prince, Pope Gregory the third, and on the affiance thereof he rebelled. The king having recovered his Dukedom by arms, pursued the Duke to Rome. The Pope, not willing to deliver the rebel, nor able to defend the city against the king who thereupon besieged it, dealt (as his predecessor had done) by supplication. But finding the matter to be past entreaty, and hoping for no aid in Italy: he sent to Charles martel, the king of Frances high steward, desiring him 5 Ecclesiae reous succurre●et. to help the church against the Lombard. Which Charles by an embassage did, & raised the siege. Now when Charles died, his son named Pipine suc●ceded him in office: who, because Chilperike (that was king then) did no part of the kingly duty, but left the charge and burden thereof unto him, he took thereby occasion to make himself king. Which to bring about with greater credit and authority, the Pope's advise was asked. Pope Zacharie made answer, that he, who did execute the duty of the king ought to be king rather, than he who did not execute it. Whereupon the French men chose Pipine to be king: the Pope released them of their oath to Chilperike. About a two years after, the king of Lombardy having won Ravenna, (which city was the seat of the Empire in Italy,) thought it meet that Rome and the Roman Dukedom should now be subject to him, who reigned in the imperial city, as it had been afore time to the Emperor. In this consideration he moved war against Stephen, the successor of Zacharie. Pope Stephen remembering his predecessors benefit bestowed on king Pipine, went to him into France: and putting him in mind of Zacharies' good turn, prayed him to undertake 6 Causam bea●i Petri. the quarrel of S. Peter, and of the common wealth of Rome against the Lombard's. Yea in an assembly of the Nobles of France, whom Pipine called together to know what they would say thereto: the Pope did not only exhort them to war, that they might recover Ravenna and the emperors land from the Lombard's, but also was importunate with them that they should not restore it to the Emperor. For (he said) the Emperor was unworthy of it, because he had forsaken the defence of Italy, and was an enemy to the Church. But if that king Pipine would either do the duty of a thankful man, or 7 Animae suae con●u●ere. provide for his soul health, or reward the Pope's labour: he should bestow Ravenna, and the dominion of it, with the rest of that dition, 8 Bea●o Petro concederer. by way of gift, upon S. Peter. This sermon as soon as Pope Stephen had made, the French men agreed to war against the Lombard's & Pipine protested that if he conquered them, he would ( 9 Pro remissione peccatoru● impetrand●. for obtaining the forgiveness of his sins) give Ravenna with the dominion and dition joining to it, unto S. Peter & his successors. According to which vow when he was come into Italy, and the Emperor sent him Ambassadors with presents, desiring him, if he recovered that dition and dominion, to grant it unto him, and not unto the Pope: he answered that being moved thereunto not with human rewards, but 1 Divinae promerendae grati●studio. with desire of meriting the favour of God, he had received the church of Rome into protection, because he was persuaded that it would be available 2 Ad animae su● salutem & peccatorum ●emi● sionem. to the salvation of his soul, and the forgiveness of his sins: and sith he had sworn that he would grant & give it unto S. Peter and his successors, therefore he must perform it. Which as he said, so he did. Neither did he give it unto them more willingly, than his son Charles the great * In the year● of Christ 77●. confirmed the gift, and added more to it, when he had made a full conquest of the Lombard's, & brought into subjection the kingdom of Italy. Howbeit though the Popes were now become mighty, with spoils of the Emperor, and had cast off his yoke from them: yet were they still subject to Charles the great, king of Italy and France, whom afterward they called the Emperor of the Romans, as the other the Greek Emperor. For though Charles gave the countries to the Pope: yet t 〈◊〉. de 〈◊〉 Ital. lib. 4. he reserved 1 Iu●, prin●●patum▪ & 〈…〉 the right, sovereignty, and royalty thereof, to himself. And when (his race decaying) Otho the great had gotten the Italian kingdom: u Sigon. lib. 7. Rome, and the rest of the Pope's dominions, regarded 2 Pontifi●●m ut reipub. principem, Regem, ut summum Dominum. the Pope, as Prince of the common wealth, but the king (or Emperor) as their sovereign Lord; and did yield tributes and services to him. So that the Pope was but a vassal to the Emperor, and held of him in fee. The chiefest means whereby they cast of this yoke also, was excommunication, not Christian but Papal excommunication, such as they had practised against the Greek Emperor. Pope Gregory the seventh was the beast that did it. The occasion was the giving of bishoprics and church-livings, which x Sigon. lib. 4. & 7. the Popes themselves had granted to the Emperors, Charles, and Otho: yea the giving of the Bishopric of Rome, and choosing Popes. But when they had gotten of them that they sought, and were grown lusty and fat by their means: they saw that the giving of bishoprics and church-livings did abate that power, to which they aspired. Wherefore under colour that the Emperors gave them not freely, but for money: y lib. 9 they taught that lay men ought not to give them at all, and cursed both the givers and receivers of them. Hereupon there arose great strife between the Pope, and the Emperor Henry the third: in the flames whereof Pope Gregory the seventh did ( 1 A●di me princ●●s Apostolorum Petre. jure autoritatis tuae. by the right of S. Peter's authority) deprive him of his whole Empire, discharge his subjects of their oath, and forbid them to obey him. The Princes of Germany not knowing the bounds either of S. Peter's authority, or of the Popes, thought themselves bound to disobey their Emperor, and so rebelled against him. Pitiful and lamentable were the griefs and contumelies which the poor Emperor was feign to endure between the Pope and Papists, while sundry ways he sought to retain his state. But in fine Rodulph, a Duke, one of his subjects, was chosen Emperor against him. The Pope, to strengthen Rodulph, sent him a kingly crown: and pricking him forward to defend valiantly the Church against Henry, did grant ( 2 〈…〉, frater tuus. Nomine vest●o. in the name of Peter and Paul) 3 Omnium peccatorum remi●sionem veniam que, in hac & in ●●●ra vita. a pardon and forgiveness of all sins both in this life, and in the life to come, to all that were obedient and faithful unto him. When that would not s●rue, (for the new Emperor was stain by Henry in the field;) his own natural children were raised against their father: first Conrade, the eldest; then Henry, the next. Which Henry spoilt him at last of the Empire, and brought him to such misery, that he was feign to beg meat and drink of the Bishop of Spier, in a Church which himself had built, promising to earn it, by doing there a clerks duty, for he could serve the choir. And not obtaining that, he pined away, and died for sorrow. This dreadful example of Henry the third advanced much the credit of the Pope's authority. The more, because that when * Archiepiscopus Mogun●inus. Vecilo, the chiefest Bishop of the Germans, had denied in the time of those stirs and troubles, that the Emperor might be deprived of his crown and kingdom by the Pope: there was a Council gathered, in which (the Popes legate being present at it) Vecilo 4 H●●reseos est no●a●us. In the year of Christ▪ 1085. was condemned of heresy for that opinion. For when the doctrine also was received (besides the practice) that the Pope might lawfully depose kings and Emperors: it made the tallest cedars of Libanus to shake, and to fear * judg. 9.15. the bramble, lest fire should come out from him and consume them. Which appeared in Henry the fourth, the next Emperor. z Sigon. lib. 1●. Who, though he began to tread his father's steps, and took Pope Paschal prisoner, whereby they grew to composition confirmed by the Pope's oath, that Bishops and abbots chosen by free voices should be invested with ring and staff by the Emperor without Simony, and being so invested might lawfully receive consecration of their archbishop; but he who were chosen by the clergy, and people, and not invested by the Emperor, should be consecrated of no man: yet when he was set at liberty again, and breaking his covenants 〈…〉 with open perjury, condemned both the grant which he had made to the Emperor, and the Emperor himself, and that with the consent of many Bishops of sundry prou●●●es in * The former in the year 1112. the later 1116. two Counsels held at Rome; the Emperor, afraid of his father's end, was glad to surrender the grant of Pope Paschal into the hands of Pope Calistus, and to restore him the possessions and 5 Regalia bea●i 〈◊〉. royalties of S. Peter. Thus was the Pope n●w become at the least the emperors peer. One policy there is left, whereby he became the emperors Lord. When Charles the great, king of ●raunce by inheritance, of Italy by conquest, had after great benefits bestowed on the Papacy restored Pope Leo cast out by the Romans, and come himself in person to Rome to see him settled: a Sigon lib. ● the Pope in recompense and token of a thankful mind thought good to honour him with the title of Emperor. Which he did with jolly ceremonies and solemnity, laying an imperial rob upon his body, a crown of gold upon his head, anointing him (as b ●. King. 1. 3●. Sadok did Solomon) with oil, the people crying out thrice with joyful shouts, God save Charles the great, the godly Emperor of the Romans. This honour, the posterity of Charles which succeeded him, c Sigon. lib. 5. in Carolo Cal●●: some times the Pope desired them, d In Ludovico Balbo, & Carolo Crasso. sometimes themselves desired and used to receive with the like solemnity and holy pomp at Rome, as their father had. In process of time the race of Charles lost the kingdom of Italy: and Otho the Germane got it (as Charles did) by conquest. e lib. 6. Otho was crowned Emperor with the like solemnity. f lib 7. And, from that time forward, he that was king of Germany held also the kingdom of Italy with the western Empire, and therefore did receive three crowns: one of Germany at Aken, by the Bishop of men's; an other of Italy at Milan, by the Bishop of Milan; the third of the Empire at Rome by the Pope. Neither did he use the title of Emperor before the Pope had crowned him: but was called the king of Germany and Italy, or, the king of Romans, and * Imperator de●●gnatus. Emperor appointed. But the Pope, as a wise and politic Prince, turned this point of ceremony into a point of substance, when he saw his time: and because he gave the title of Emperor, and set a crown on emperors heads; he sought to persuade men that he gave the Empire and right of the crown. The time fit to do it was when the troubles of the two Henry's, and the Counsels sentence against Bishop Vecilo, had bred an opinion that the Pope had right to depose Emperors. For thereof men would gather that he had right to make them also. Wherefore g Sigon. lib. 11. when Lotharius, the next after the Henry's, was crowned Emperor at Rome: Pope Innocent the second, who set the crown upon him, * In the year of Christ 1133. caused the doing of it to be painted on a wall in his palace of Lateran, and under the picture these verses to be written. Rex venit ante fores, iurans prius urbis honores: Pòst homo fit Papae, sumit quo dante coronam. The king doth come before the gate▪ first swearing to the city's state: The Pope's 6 The Pope's vassal. For homo here is uses, as the name of homage is deri●ed from it. So that it noteth the duty and service, which tenants and vasals do owe unto their Lords. man then doth he become, & of his gift doth take the crown. So finely by the Pope's painting, and poetry, was the feat wrought, and as it were the wheel of things turned about: that, whereas the Pope before held his Princedom of the Emperor in fee: now must the Emperor be thought to hold his Empire of the Pope in ●ee. For though it be said that 7 Pict●ribus a●que Po●●●●. Painters and Poets may feign by authority: yet he and his mates, who feigned this pageant, did mean it should be taken for a matter of truth. The proof whereof appeared * In the year of Christ 1157. not many years after in the next Emperor that was crowned at Rome, even Friderike the first. h Sigon. lib. 12. The Pope who crowned him (it was Pope Nicolas Breakespeare, called Adrian the fourth,) sending by occasion two legates unto him, Rowland, and Bernard, Cardinals, with letters concerning the thing for which he sent them: did mention therein what honourable courtesy he had showed the Emperor, and given him this 8 Beneficium. benefit, that he 9 Contulimus. bestowed the crown of the Empire on him. Which letters being read, the Emperor and his Nobles took it very evil that the Pope should write that he had given the Emperor the crown of the Empire by way of a benefit. And fearing least thereby he should mean that, 1 Quod quidam etiam dictitabant. which some avouched also commonly, that the kings of Germany do obtain the Empire by the benefit of the Popes, (for 2 Siquidem idem etiam sub Lothario pictura Lateranensi ae versibus haud ambigue erat expressum. the picture & verses in the Palace of Lateran did plainly signify as much:) they could not contain their grief, but they must needs say, that the Empire is not the Pope's benefit. To whom when Cardinal Rowland, one of the legates, replied, And whose is it then, if it be not the Popes? Otho, the County Palatine, standing by, was moved so with that speech, that he drew his sword and would have slain the Cardinal. But the Emperor stayed him, and willed the legates to get them back to Rome strait, and signified by letters throughout all Germany what embassage the Pope had sent him: adding that he acknowledged the Empire to be given him by God alone, and by the Princes who had chosen him; and therefore desired them, that they would not suffer the majesty of the Empire, so worthily gotten by their ancestors, to be impaired by their default. The Pope, understanding by the return of his legates both in what peril they had been, and what the Emperor answered: wrote letters thereupon to the Bishops of Germany, wherein he willed them to deal with the Emperor & make him do his duty. The Bishops spoke unto him, & he answered them, that he obeyed the Pope gladly: but the crown of the Empire he accounted himself to have received of God chief, and next of the Prince's electors of Germany; his regal coronation, of the Bishop of Cooleine; his imperial, of the Pope. As for the Cardinals whom the Pope had sent: he forbade them to go forward, because he found that they had brought letters from the Pope to the endamaging of the Empire. Heretofore the Empire hath lifted up the Church: but now the Church (saith he) doth press down the Empire. 1 ●●ptum est ● pictura●inde ve●tum est ad scripturam: nunc scripturae autoritas comparatur. It began with painting: thence it came to writing: now is the writing sought to be maintained by authority. I will not suffer, nay I will rather leave my crown, than I will permit the authority of the Empire to be diminished any way. 2 Pictura deleatur: scriptura ●●●ocetur. Let the picture be razed out, let the writing be called back, that there remain not monuments still to raise strife between the kingdom and the priesthood: and then shall there no duty be wanting of my part towards the church of Rome. This answer of the Emperor seemed so reasonable to the Germane Bishops: that they advised and wished Pope Breakespeare to pacify his wrath with a gentler embassage. The Pope's chiefest instruments to pluck down Henry the third, were the Germane Bishops. Wherefore Pope Breakespeare, perceiving that they were not so forward against Friderike, as they had been against Henry, was f●ine to follow their advise. So he sent two wiser and discréeter legates, writing by them unto him, that there was no cause why he should be offended with his former letters. For though other men (saith he) take the word [benefit] in an other sense; yet you should have taken it in that in which we took it, and which it seemeth to have by the first original. For 8 Beneficium. non se 〈◊〉, sed bonum ●a●tum. Feud●m, a thing holden in see, 〈…〉 man 〈◊〉 of a● 〈◊〉, and oweth him 〈◊〉. ho●o●, and 〈◊〉 for it. it is compounded of two words, good and fact: and it signifieth, not a thing that is given in ●ee, but a good fact. As it is used throughout the whole course of the holy scripture: wherein we are said to be guided and nourished by the benefit of God, * Non 〈…〉. not as though we had these things of him in fee, but as of his blessing, and a good fact of his. Now we (as you know) did set upon your head the crown of the Empire so well and so honourably, that all men may judge it was a goodfact. And so were the other words mistaken also, we bestowed on you the crown of the Empire. For by this word [ 9 Conquerous tibi ensign imperialis 〈◊〉, id es●, imposiumus. bestowed] we meant nothing else, but, we set it upon you. The Emperor had required the picture to be razed out, the writing to be called back. But he must be content (and so he was) with this Papal mitigation of the writing, made somewhat smother by the Legates. The picture was too good an evidence to be defaced. And, for all this smoothing of the writing too, Pope Breakespeare ceased not to quarrel with him still, and to encroach upon him. The Emperor exacted hi● tribute to be taken up in the Pope's dominion: the Pope sent him word that he should not exact it, but at his coronation only. The Emperor required Bishops to do him homage and to be sworn to him: the Pope wrote sharp letters and reproved him for it. The Emperor, being offended with the Pope's letters, wrote somewhat sharply back, and i Friderike the Emperor to Adr●●n the Pope. set his name before the Popes, and k That is (as we say in English) he did Thou him. spoke to him in the singular number: the Pope again wrote to him that he marveled why he gave not due reverence to 1 Beato Petro & sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae. S. Peter, and to the holy Church of Rome. The Pope required him not to bind the Bishops of Italy to do him homage▪ the Emperor said he was content not to seek their homage, if they would be content not to hold his lordships. The Pope would not have him send messengers to Rome, unless he made him privy to it, sith all in that city were 2 S. Petri magistratus cum universis regalibus. S. Peter's magistrates, with the whole royalty: the Emperor said that that point did need more consultation; for so the Roman Emperor should have the bare name of a ruler only, if the City of Rome, whence he is named the Roman Emperor, were not subject to him. Upon these dealings and answers too and fro, the matter was debated between the Pope's legates (four Cardinals) and the Emperor, to bring them to agreement. The Emperor professed that he would both give and receive judgement. The Pope's legates answered, that, 3 Aequum 〈◊〉 ut solum acciperet N●que 〈…〉. it was meet, he should receive it only: sith the Pope is not subject to any man's judgement. Whereto when the Emperor said that he would stand to the arbitrament of six Cardinals, and six Bishops, or Princes: the legates were content to write thereof unto the Pope. They wrote, and the Pope refused the condition. To be short they agréeed not, while Pope Breakespeare lived. But the lusty Cardinal Rowland who succeeded him, and being Pope was named Alexander the third, l Sigo● l●b. ●●. did so rouse up Fridericke with their old policy of excommunications Papal, and rebellions, that m Lib. 14. after great dangers of his state and life, he was enforced to yield at length and ask him pardon. Which being granted on conditions, * In the year of Christ 1177. he came to Pope Rowland in the city of Venice, and kissed there his feet, and gave him the upper hand, and 4 Palaf●idum ascen●●●ti ●t●epam ●en●it. held his stirrup while he was mounting on his palf●ie. So by treading down the Emperor Fridericke, the Popedom was advanced to be the highest state in earth; and Peter's chair got Caesar's right. If n Sigo●. lib 15. Henry the fifth (the son of Fridericke) sought to stay it, by seizing on 5 S. Petri patrimonium, & patrimonia Ecclesiae. S. Peter's lands, & giving them to three Dukes to be held of him in fee: he sought to stay a watercourse, which the more you stop it, the fiercer it doth break out. For Philip his brother, the greatest of the three, was excommunicated strait: and Pope Innocentius the third (watching his time) drew the two sword out against them all: discharged their subjects of their allegiance and oath; and set both his clergy and laity upon them; neither left them till he h●d vanquished them, what with curses, what with wars; and that which Pope Rowland had well begun, * In the year of Christ 1198. he nobly finished. Thus have I touched briefly the story of the temporal state and kingdom of the Popes, how ●h●y clime● up to the sovereignty of it. The truth of which story is clear by the monuments of historians worthy credit, o Histor. Longobard. lib. 6. & Miscell. l. 21. Paulus Diaconus, p Oth● Frising in Chron. lib. 5.6. & 7. & de reb. gest. Frideric. imper●t. Otho, q De rebus gest. Friderici imperat. Radevicus, r De rebus gest. Francorum. Aimo●nus, s Chronic. lib. 2. Rhegino, t In Chronico. Sigibertus, and u Ado Vienn. in Chron. aetat. 6. Witichind. de reb. gest. Saxon. Gotthofrid. Viterb. Chron. part. 17. Lambert. Schafnab. in histor. Germanor. others who lived at the same times, wherein the several things were done. Yea x Ado Vienn. aetat. 6. A●moin. lib. 4. c. 90. Rhegino lib. ●. Otho Frit. de gest. Frider. l. 1. c. 7. Radevic. lib. 1. cap. 10 15 & 16. Sigibert. in Chron. ad ann. Christ. 1088. and so forth the rest. they, in sundry points and circumstances of importance, have opened partly more, partly the same more forcibly, then as I have touched it. But lest you should suspect that some of them perhaps speak somewhat of affection, against the Popes, or for the Emperors: I have contented myself to touch no more, nor with more advantage, than Sigonius in his story of the kingdom of Italy, presented * To james Bon-companion, P●pe Gregory the thirtenths' son. Sigon praefat. ad histor. to the Pope's son, and written for the Pope's glory (as it became the Pope's reader,) hath set down, out of them and other monuments, as most true. Whereby it is very apparent and evident th●● under pretence of the Church's state, of the Church-discipline in excommunication, of the Church-doctrine in meritorious works, of the Church authority in forgiving sins, in teaching men their duties, in dispensing with oaths, and lastly of the y Kiantz. Saxoniae. lib. 9 cap. 15. Solen●tates per ecclesiam introductae. Church-solemnities in setting crowns on emperors heads; the Pope hath gathered jewels to deck the triple z Which crown they call Regnum. Platin. in Paul secund. Guicci ardin. hist. 〈◊〉 lib. 9 crown of his worldly kingdom, and hath made himself not only a Prince, but also a Prince of Princes of the earth. It was almost twelve hundred years after Christ, when he obtained this sovereignty. Sith the which time he hath more notoriously built up his Babylon with the stones of Zion. The common wealth is witness hereof in the calamit●●s of her civil governors. Whom, by the devices of the same treacheries, he hath deprived of kingdoms, goods, liberty, and life, when they have stood in his light: as the realms of a Polyd. Virg. hist. Angl. l. 15 England, of b Paul. Aemy l. de reb. gest. Frane. lib. 8. Gaguin. lib. 7. France, of c Krantz. Saxon. l. 7. c. 34. & 38. & l. 8. c. 6. & l. 9 c. 14. Germany, of d Kiantz. Wandaliae. l. 12. c. 36. Boheme, of e Bellai. comment. de reb. Gall. lib. 1. Navarre, & the states of f Nic. Machian. histor. Flor. lib. 8. Florence, g iovi. de vit. Leon. decim. lib. 3. & de vit. Adrian. sexti. Urbine, h Guicciardin, hist. Ital. lib. 8. Venice, in Italy, have tried to their smart. But the Church hath tried it with greater smart in her spiritual pastors. For, as Samuel, when the Israelites would have a king to rule them, (as other nations had,) i 1. Sam. 8.11. told them that the king, who should reign over them, would play the king with them, and theirs; he would take their sons and appoint them to wait upon him, to be his horsemen, footmen, captains, to ear his land, to reap his harvest, to make him instruments of war, & instruments to serve his charets; he would take their daughters to dress him sweet ointments, and be his cooks, and bakers; he would take their fields, and vineyards, and olive trees, the best, & give them to his servants; yea the tenth of their seed, and of their vineyards, & give it to his courtiers, and to his servants; he would take their men, their maids, their youth, their cattle, & put them to his work; he would take the tenth of their flocks; and, to conclude, they should be his servants: even so, when the Pope had gotten the kingdom, that is, the supremacy, over the Israelites of God, that is, Christians; he took their sons & daughters, nay their fathers and mothers, who should beget them in the gospel, and feed them with the milk of life, and appointed them to serve him, to be his chancellors, Treasurers, Secretaries, Masters of requests, Clerks of the Escheker, Legates, in peace to go on embassages, in war to look unto his armies; he took their bishoprics, and benefices, and prebends, the best, and gave them to his servants, yea the first fruits and tithes of their livings, and gave them to his Courtiers and to his servants; he took their pastors, their doctors, their elders, their deacons, and put them to his work; he took the tithe of their Churches, nay their whole Churches; and, to conclude, both they and theirs were made to serve him. If you, M. Hart, who have been at Rome, and seen the Pope's person, have not yet perceived this policy of the Pope: your want of experience, or rather your education in a Popish Seminary, (where other kind of books are given you to read then as bewray such mysteries,) may bear the fault of it. But there are two Italians of your own profession, Franciscus Sansovinus, and Onuphrius the Friar: of whom k Sansovino deal govern. de regn. & dell●●●epub. lib. 11. the one hath written a treatise of the government of the Court of Rome; l Onuphr. de Roman. Pontisicib. De episcop. tit. & d●●conijs Card. De vitis Pontific. the other, sundry books of the Popes and Cardinals. By them you may learn it. For Onuphrius showeth m Libr. de episcopatibus, titulis, & diaconiis Cardinalium. that there are three sorts of the Church-officers which are named Cardinals, the first Bishops; the second, Priests; and the last, Deacons: Priests, and Deacons, of the parishes that are within Rome; Bishops, of the cities that lie near about it. When Rome had received the Christian faith, and the Church increased there from day to day; the faithful were divided into sundry parishes for their better government, and had Elders and Deacons ordained to attend them. * Presbyteri. Elders, or, as you term them, Priests, (and I will call them so, because I speak of Cardinals known by that title,) were they to whom the charge of ministering the word and sacracraments; Deacons, to whom the care for the poor of the church, and their provision, was committed. Now at first, the parishes had each but one Priest, while they being small, one pastor could discharge the duty. But after, when the number of the faithful grew, each of them had more. And 1 Cardinals Presbyteri. hence did the name of Cardinals arise, that he who was chief amongst the Priests of one parish was called the Cardinal Priest, that is to say, principal. In like sort 2 Cardinals Diaconi. when the several wards of the city could not be served by several Deacons, but each of them had more: the chief amongst the Deacons of the same ward, was called the Cardinal Deacon. The name being worshipful amongst Priests and Deacons of the city of Rome, 3 Cardinals Episcopi. spread to the Bishops that dwelled near about, and they were called Cardinal Bishops, though it were long first. For 4 Apud veteres inauditum, Episcopum Cardinalem dici. amongst the ancients it was never heard of; neither might with reason, sith they, being equal in power to other Bishops cannot be called Cardinal in respect of them. Yet in time, by custom, I know not how, they got it. Wherefore of the Cardinals of Rome, six are Bishops, the Bishop of Alba, Tusculum, Praeneste, Sabine, Portuese, and Ostia: the rest, whose number in old time was certain according to the number of parishes and wards, now they are more or fewer, as the Pope will, (they were three score and three * In the year of Christ 1557. when this was written by Onuphrius) but all the rest are Priests, or Deacons And for almost twelve hundred years after Christ, although the Pope employed them much in his affairs, yet ordinarily they lived on their charge, and kept their calling and degree. The honour & power of Cardinal Bishops, was as the Bishops of other cities. The Cardinal Priests, and Deacons, were neither Bishops themselves, nor equal unto them in dignity. And if a Cardinal Priest were chosen (as worthy of a greater charge) to be a Bishop else where: he left his place in Rome and ceased to be Cardinal, because 1 Antiquis canonibus cautum, unum hominem non nisi uno sacerdotio potiri posse. it is ordered by the ancient rules of ecclesiastical discipline, that one man may have but one ecclesiastical charge, and therefore no man might be a Cardinal Priest of Rome, and Bishop of an other Church. But 2 Sub Alexandro tertio Romana Ecclesia ad maximum in terris fastigium evecta fui●● Imperatore ●riderico conculcato. after that the Pope had trod the Emperor under feet, & lifted up his own throne above the highest thrones on earth: he lifted up withal 3 Cardinalium maiestas cum Romani Pontificis autoritate crevit. the maiest●ie of the Cardinals, as of his Noble men and counsellors, and used them as principal pillars of his state. He gave to them alone the right of choosing the Pope: the people, Prince, and clergy being rob of it. He decked them with honour of wearing red hats: and going, first, before Bishops; afterward, before Archbishops; and at the last, before patriarchs. n Onuphr. de Romanis Pontificibus & Cardinalibus. He chose the greatest Prelates of sundry dioceses and provinces, as of York (for example) and Canterbury in England; Rheims and Rouen, in France; Toledo, in Spain; Lisbon, in Portugal; Milan, Ravenna, Venice, in Italy; in Germany Coolcin, Trier, and men's; in Boheme, Praga; Cracovia, in Poleland; Strigonium, in Hungary: and so forth the chiefest Bishops of all Christendom, to be his Cardinal Priests and Deacons. Yea, they were glad to be so, because the Cardinalship was a degree unto the Popedom. o De episcopat▪ tit. & diaconate Card. Neither did he accustom them to give over their Bishoply charge, that others placed in their rooms might supply that duty, and they might attend their charge of Cardinal Priestship and Deaconship in Rome: but for the better maintenance of their own port, and strengthening of the Popedom, he suffered them to keep the livings of their bishoprics and Cardinalships both. Wherein least he might seem to break that rule of discipline, one man to have but one charge: he took order that they should not be called Bishops though they had bishoprics. How then? Forsooth, a Bishop, if he were made Cardinal Deacon, must be called elect Bishop: if he were made Cardinal Priest, must be called perpetual administrator of his Bishopric. As namely Thomas Wolsey Archbishop of York, when he was made Cardinal parish-priest of Rome, he must be called, not Archbishop, but Cardinal Woolsey, p Presbyter Cardinalis, tit. S. Caeciliae, perpetuus administrator archiepiscopatus Eboracensis. Priest of S. Cecilies' parish, and perpetual administrator of the archbishopric of York. And Aeneas silvius, Bishop of Sienna, when he was made Cardinal Deacon, must be called, not Bishop, but Cardinal silvius, d Diaconus Cardinal●s S. Eustachii, electus episcopus Senensis. Deacon of S. Eustaces, and elect Bishop of Sienna. A shift somewhat strange, and such as a while the Popes themselves were ashamed off: at least they used it sparingly, until the time of Clemens the fifth. He, when the ice was broken, did wade more boldly through. And after him his successors, who staid in France, as he did, and set the See of Rome in the city of Auinion, did bring it to a common practice: in so much that none almost was made Cardinal, who had not a Bishopric either 4 In titulum. in title, or 5 In commendam. in commenda, or 6 In perpetuam administrationem. in perpetual administration. So by these devices (which all were invented by the Popes at Auinion) they had now disfurnished many Churches of Bishops, to furnish, in word, the Church of Rome with Priests, and Deacons; in deed, the Court of Rome with rich and mighty Cardinals. Yet this is the least part of that abomination of desolation, which they have set in the holy places. For under pretence, that it is their duty to see that all Churches be provided of fit pastors, they have 7 Reseruationes, & provisiones. reserved Church-livings, when and which they listed, to their own bestowing, and them have they seized on to maintain the port of their Cardinals too. This was not only done, but also professed to be done to that end by Clemens the sixth. Who having made new Cardinals, reserved the benefices in England that were void, and should be void next, (besides bishoprics & abbeys) to the sum of two thousand marks, and for them he provided two Cardinals to be their pastors. Whereof when stay was made by king Edward the third, who seeing how the Church and realm were both decayed by tho●e provisions for aliens, did inhibit them to be secund: o Epist. Clemen●●s Papae ad R●●em Angliae Edwa. du● tert●um. Walsingam hist. Angl. i● Edward. 〈◊〉. Pope Clemens wrote unto him, that having lately made new Cardinals of the Church of Rome, he could not with reason but provide for them, 1 Secundum status sui decenti●m. as it was seemly for their state; & this he had done by providing benefices which either were presently void, or should be after, unto a certain sum, for two of them in England, for the rest in other kingdoms and coasts of Christendom; through all the which almost he had made the like provision for new Cardinals, neither amongst them all had found any 2 Rebell●onem. rebellion, (so he termed it,) save this in England only. The Cardinals, which Clemens had p Onuphr. i●●om. Pon●●●. & Ca●di●. then made, were twelve. Two of them he furnished with so many benefices, as should be worth two thousand marks. I cannot say precisely what number that might be. But it must be noted that (as the rate of money and price of things hath grown) a benefice, worth three hundred marks or better now, was then not worth a hundred; neither did the Pope choose the fattest benefices but such as next came to the net: and he meant his Cardinals should have that pension clear, besides their farmer's shares, and vicar's, or curates. So that the two Cardinals (by probable conjecture) might have an hundred benefices before they had their yearly two thousand mark pension. But let it be eighty, seventy, sixty: let it be fifty: or, if that seem too much, let it be forty. The Pope did provide, as for them, so for the rest: who being ten more, must have two hundred by proportion. Which proportion if it be drawn to all, nay to half, nay to a quarter of the Cardinals, whom Clemens and his successors have made sith that time n Sith the year of Christ 1343. in the which Pope Clemens m●de those provisions for his Cardinals. for these twelve score years: the number of parishes will rise to many thousands, which they have laid waste, as flocks without pastors, to maintain the state of their Cardinals only. Yet this is but a part of that abomination of desolation which they have set in the holy places. For as though the profits of so many Churches were too small a living for the Priests and Deacons of the Court of Rome: they have gone forward from pluralities of benefices to pluralities of bishoprics. And under the colour of * Commend●●● al●cuius cur● whence the name of commenda comech▪ c. Obitum. c Catinensis. Dist. 61. c. Clericum. c. qui plures. 2. q. 1. c. dudum. 2. de elect. c. Nemo. de elect▪ in Sexto. commending (as they name it,) that is, committing them to some of trust for a time, till good and godly Bishops might be provided for them: q Onuphr. de e●iscopatibus ●●●ulis & diacon●●s Card. they have put two bishoprics unto one Cardinal, yea sometimes three, yea four, yea five, yea some times six. Cardinal Hippolytus, r Guicciard. h●●t. Ital. lib 6. who plucked out the eyes of the Lord julius his own natural brother, because a damsel, whom he loved, did love his brother more than him, and confessed to him that it was the beauty of his brother's eyes, wherewith she was so ravished: s Onuph. lib. de Rom. Pont. & Card. this Cardinal being deacon of S. Lucy's in Rome, & Archpriest of S. Peter's, had the bishoprics of Milan, Capua, Strigonium, Agria, Mutina, and Ferrara. Of the which six, three be Archbishoprickes of sundry kingdoms and dominions, Milan, of Lombardie; Capua, of Naples; Strigonium, of Hungary; distant each from other some hundreds of miles: the other three are somewhat nearer to their fellows, one in Hungary, two in Italy. But if the Popes have taken six dioceses and provinces lying so far a sunder, and made them all desolate of Bishops and Archbishops, to maintain one Cardinals pomp, and him a Deacon: what hath the desolation been which they have brought on dioceses and provinces that might be joined more fitly, to maintain the rest, and them of higher calling, as Cardinal Priests and Bishops? Yet behold a greater abomination of desolation than this, nay, than all these, which I have touched hitherto. For t Onuphr. de episcop tit. & diac. Card. the livings of the Cardinals (with u Decret Nicolai quart. Concil. Basil. Session. 23. avails thereto belonging) were great of themselves, and did perhaps content some: or if they did not, yet the number of those caterpillars was small in comparison. But the Popes had other hungry knights about them, kinsmen, officers, servants, retainers, vasals, hangers on, and all the rabble of their Court, whose livings were not crumbs of the Cardinals tables, whose number was as * Exod. 10.15. the grasshoppers which covered the face of Egypt. And they were also made pastors of Churches, (not to feed them, but to sléese them,) by the same conveyances of Papal reservations, commendaes, provisions, and other such Egyptian tricks. An example of it in our x Matt. Paris in Henri●. tert. in the year 12●0. English Chronicles of Henry the third: in whose days the Pope enjoined by one mandate to the Bishops of Canterbury, Lincoln, and Sarisburie, that they should provide for 1 Trece●tis romans. three hundred Romans in benefices next ●●cant, and they should give no benefice until they had provided for so many, 2 Compe●e●ter. competently. But what speak I of three hundred? The Romans and Italians were multiplied so within a few years in English church livings, by Gregory the ninth much, but more by Innocentius the fourth: th●t * In the year 1245. when the king caused a view thereof to be taken throughout the whole realm, the sum of their revenues was found to be yearly 3 Sexagi●●● 〈◊〉. ●●rum. three score thousand marks, to the which sum the yearly revenues of the crown of England did not amount. The king though misliking the disorder greatly, yet being loath to meddle with the redress of it for fear of the Pope, (the stripes of whose wrath against his father king john, against his cousin Otho the Emperor, and Otho's successor Fridericke the second, were bleeding fresh before his eyes:) 4 Epist. magnatum & universitatis ●eg●● Angliae ad innocent. Papam in Conc Lugdun. the Nobles and Commons sent a supplication to Pope Innocentius and the general Council assembled then at Lions. Wherein, upon complaint that 5 Italici, quorum nume●a● iam est infinitus. an infinite number of Italians in England had the charge of flocks, who neither fed, nor knew, nor cared for their sheep, 6 Fructus tantum percipiunt, ex●ra regnum aspo●tantes. but received only the fruits & revenues, and carried them out of the realm: that the yearly rents of Italians in England amounted to three score thousand marks, and upward, besides divers other avails, which they reaped where they sowed not: that England hoped for some relief of these grievances when Innocentius was made Pope, but now it is oppressed more out of measure by the Pope's legate, who entering late into the land with larger power and commission then ever legate had, doth exceed excessively; he giveth to Italians some benefices already void, worth thirty marks or more yearly; some, that fall void by the decease of Italians, he thrusteth new Italians into; some he doth provide when they shall be void to be reserved for Italians; moreover, he wresteth out immoderate pensions from religious persons, and 7 Excommunicationis & interdicti sententijs passim supponit. useth to excommunicate & interdict of church-service, of sacraments, of Christian burial, them who gainsay him and resist him: upon this complaint the Nobles and Commons of the realm of England made humble suit unto his fatherhood, that he would extend the hand of mercy to his children, & ease them of those burdens of grievances and oppressions detestable to God and men. The messengers, by whom this supplication was sent, presented it before the Pope unto the general Council. To whom they made complaint withal of a clause in the Pope's * The Pope's letters are called bulls, of bul●●, a tablet or boss: because a boss of lead 〈◊〉 hanged to t●●m like a ●●●let, (having S. Peter's image and S. Paul's on one side, the Pope's name on the other) with the which they are sealed. bulls, called [ 8 That is to say, Notwithstanding. Non obstante,] by which he broke all laws and orders of the church to serve these his purposes. For whatsoever made against the tenor of his bull, he used to remove it with a Non obstante. As, for example, the Church's law and order confirmed by a Council, was, that one man should have but one benefice, and none should have any, but he, who could himself discharge the duty personally. The Pope z Matt. Paris in Henrico tert in the year 1231. sendeth forth his bulls for five Romans, the son of Rumfrede, and such, and such, that they shall be provided for of so many benefices as may be worth to each of them a hundred pound yearly, Non obstante that law. Pope Innocent was grieved at this supplication, and complaint of England, which touched his supremacy so near to the quick. y Concil. Lateran. sub alexander. tert. c 13. Howbeit for the present he made them fair promises, and sent them sundry privileges from the Council of Lions: that patrons thenceforth should Liberé absque cuius●ibet contradictionis obstaculo. freely present, and Bishops should admit fit persons to benefices, who would and could well serve the charge: that the Clerk of his Escheker (that was his legate) should provide but for twelve more, without consent of the patrons; that if English men would be studious, honest, and thankful, (chiefly the sons of Noble men,) he would provide for them also, * Super beneficiorum pluralitate hono●ifice dispensare. and dispense honourably with the worthiest of them for plurality of benefices; finally, that no Italian should immediately succeed an Italian; which was obtained for their treacheries, who when one that had a benefice was dead, would foist an other into his room. And these things were promised: but they were promised only. For after that the Council was dissolved once, the Pope played the Pope, and 8 Omnia haec & alia per hoc repagulun. [Non obstante] infirmantur. In the year 1246. broke them all with Non obstante. And as a Exod 5.9. Pharaoh hardened his hart against Israel, and laid more work upon them, when they desired ease of bondage: so did Innocent against England. In so much, that after six or seven years, when a view was taken again of the brick made of our English Israel for the Italian Pharaoh: the sum of those revenues which before amounted to three score thousand marks, b In the year 1252. ad plusquam septuaginta millia marcarum. was grown to three score thousand and ten with the advantage. Now if the outrage of this abomination were so monstrous in one realm▪ what was it in all, throughout the rest of Christendom? If Popes did so exceed above three hundred years ago, in the prime of their Papacy, when the joints of it were yet scarcely knit: what is it likely they did after? If by one policy they brought so great wealth unto their Court and state, yea, by part of one applied to furnish their Italians: what may be thought of the same, applied to furnish the home-born, each in their own country? What of so many others, some of them as fruitful as this, some more fruitful? What of their whole government: wherein they have claimed a fullness of power to do what they list, and they have put their claim in practice? What words may serve to utter the spoils which they have made of the Church of Christ; first, by ordaining of the Church-officers, in creating Bishops, Archbishops, patriarchs, and weaving palls for them; in disannulling the elections of some who lawfully were chosen; in granting some (who could not be chosen lawfully) to have the rooms by postulations; in chopping and changing their persons from one See to an other by translations, and their dioceses by divisions; in giving pastors livings away ●uer their heads by * Expectatiugratiae. reversions, or advowsons; in shaping new creatures, 1 Dominicans, or blackfriars, (as they were called commonly,) ● Preaching Friars, and 2 Franciscans▪ or begging friars the Pope's spies. Minorites, and giving them the power of pastors; in dispensations with boys, dispensations with bastards, dispensations with idiots, that they may have the charge of souls; dispensations with murderers, with adulterers, with Simoniaks, that they may keep their benefices; dispensations for pluralities, that one may have twenty; dispensations for nonresidence, that they need never come unto them; to be short, in reseruaes, acces●es, regresses, coadiutories, unions, preventions, permutations, and a thousand such devices belonging to the market of benefices and bishoprics. Secondly, by dealing with the Church causes: wherein they have received appeals from all quarters, that they might fish in troubled water; they have fetched persons a thousand miles off by citations to their consistory; they have disturbed the peace and discipline of the Church by sending legates a latere, by putting matters to their delegates, by privileging men from laws, and exempting inferiors from their superiors regiment; they have multiplied humane decrees, and made them snares to catch fowls, laws, that none shall marry in this or that degree of carnal kindred, or 3 Spiritual kindred, is a kindred imagined by the Pope to be betwixt them, who are linked by suretyship for 〈◊〉 in baptism, as godfathers, godmothers, godchildren godbrothers, godsisters, & gossyps, as they are called. spiritual; canons, that men whose persons have such or such a blemish shall not ascend to priestly orders; vows, of pilgrimage, of chastity, of poverty, of obedience, of Nunnery, Moonkry, Friary; which all they have released for money; yea, they have released oaths, solemn oaths, and have given licences to commit perjury: they have made sale of forgiveness of sins, and merchandise of men's souls: they have turned repentance into pains of penance, and penance into mines of silver and gold: they have proclaimed jubilees of pardons plenary (as they call them) to all who came to Rome every hundredth year, and visited Churches there * Hic des deuo●●● coelestibus associote. Mentes aegrotae per munera sunt ibi lotae. Ergo venitote gentes a sede re notae. Qui da cis, estote certi de divite dote. devoutly: these jubilees they have abridged from an hundred years to fifty, from fifty to thirty three, from thirty three to twenty five; & because all Christians came to not Rome for them, they have sent their peddlers abroad with p●ckes of pardons, that all might buy them at their doors: they have reserved cases and crimes of greatest value, as Simony, Sodomy, offence of Church-liberty, from which none might absolve but they: and, to absolve men upon doing of penance, they have built at Rome a Papal exchange called the Penitentiary, where these absolutions are sold at certain rates: neither being satisfied by this exchange with the living, they have sold their wares unto the dead also (but the living must pay for them,) so many crowns, so many souls to be forgiven all their sins, and rid out of the pains of purgatory. Thirdly, by disposing of the Church-goods, which they have conveyed (as c Luc. 16.8. the unjust, but wise steward▪) from the Lord to serve themselves: they have charged the livings of Churches and Churchmen with pensions, tributes, subsidies: they have exacted of them fifteens, tenths, fiftes, thirds, moyities of their substance, to the maintenance of wars which they have waged with the Emperors: they have rob benefices to enrich abbeys by appropriations, that afterward themselves might glean the greater fruit of Abbeys: they have made Prelates, and such as would be Prelates, to compound with themselves, for 4 Pa●les are little tipets made of holy wool of the Pope's lambs. A todde whereof is worth him more than a kings ransom. For the power of Archbishops & patriarchs doth lie in them. And they who will wear them, must fetch them far, and buy them ●eare. palls, for crosier-staves, for mitres, for rings, for signing of bills, and to compound with their servants for writing, perusing, subscribing, allowing, conferring, registering, taxing, receiving, keeping, delivering, and for the cord and lead, wherewith their bulls are tied and sealed: they have devised new officers, yea new herds and companies of officers in their chancery, purposely to this intent that they might sell those rooms, the which being sold for many thousand crowns they forced poor suitors, who came to Rome for grace or justice, to pay it, by enhancing the charges of their bulls: the army of their Registers, Notaries, Protonotaries, Enditers, Writers, Abridgers, Dataries, Rescribendaries, Accounters, Solicitors, 5 Plumba●●res. So they call the clerks of the signet, because they seal with lead Plumbers, Regarders, Regentes, Poursuivants, Clerks of their Ceremonies, Clerks of their chamber, Clerks of their exchequer, and infinite other peasantes they have kept in wages with the price of Christians blood: they have raised an yearly and ordinary revenue of first fruits, of tithes, of the goods of abbots, Bishops, and Cardinals deceased, which they have seized upon, as exectors, and when they have licenced them to make testaments, yet have they kept themselves a share, as, of every Cardinal (beside five hundred ducats which he payeth for his 6 The Pope doth give a ring to him whom he createth Cardinal. And for that ring the Cardinal at his death must pay the Pope five hundred ducats▪ which is some what dearer than goldsmiths sell them in cheapside. ring) all his chappell-iewels, ornaments, and vessels, whether of gold or silver, crosses, candlesticks, chalices, Images, and other such eschetes: and, in a word, their gins & hooks have been so many to get the goods of men out of all coasts, into their coffers, that d Theodori●. a Niem in Nemor. union. Tracked. 6. cap. 37. a Roman Courtier saith, * Camera Apo●to ica assimilatur mari. in quod intrant omnia flumina, & non inundat. the Pope's exchequer is like unto the Sea, whereinto all rivers do run, and yet it overfloweth not. Fourthly, by abusing of the Church-censures: for what else should I call it? when they have used them as instruments of violence, to compass all that they did covet. If any, either Patron, or Bishop, or Archbishop refused to commit the charge of English flocks to Roman pastors, or rather wolves: if any reproved the wicked sale and godless chaffer of their dispensations, absolutions, pardons: if any would not yield to pay them such taxes as they required by their legates, their merchants, their collectors, their nuntios, spies, & poursuivamts: strait, as the person was, so came a censure out against him, either suspension from administering his office, or interditement from use of church-service, or excommunication from the fellowship of Christians, or citing him to Rome to chastise him by correption, or denouncing him an heretic if he continued rebellious, and then the secular power must burn him. A practice so common, that ordinarily the Auditor of the Pope's Exchequer is authorized to excommunicate and execute other censures, if the Courtesans, (who pay tribute for licence to be common whores) & other farmers of holy rents, keep not touch in bringing in. And because these censures have not prevailed always to achieve their purposes: therefore as they enlarged them against civil powers to purchase somewhat thence, (as from the king of England, beside his Peter-pences, a thousand marks yearly, which yet was but a pety-larceny:) so they strengthened them against ecclesiastical by the oath of fealty (which they have won of Prelates,) to maintain the Papacy and royalties of S. Peter. Chief by winding in authority withal, that they may deprive them, and none may deprive Bishops, but they. That if Bishops will not agree to them in all things, when they are commanded in virtue of obedience: yet for fear of loosing their livings and promotions, yea their liberty, yea their life, (if they be in the Pope's subjection) they may learn to serve their Lord. But the head of all, whereby those wild boars have made the chiefest waist of the lords vinyeard, is the fifth and last point: their making and establishing of the Church-lawes. For if they had done, and only done these villainies: they might seem to have done them, as men, not as Popes; and it might be hoped, when one tyrant were gone, the next would govern well. But they have confirmed the doing of them by their laws, and procured those laws to be received as canons & rules of the Church-government: their Decretals, their Clementines, their Extravagants, in deed extravagant, their constitutions Apostolic, and their unruly rules of the Apostolic chancery. The gross intent and practice whereof is so palpable, that Budaeus, a learned lawyer, the French kings secretary, making a complaint of the great disorder of the Popes, and clergy, doth lay the blame thereof upon their laws and jurisdiction. e Gulielmus Budaeus de ass & partibus eius, lib. 5. It is grown (saith he) so much out of kind from the ancient love, that where there was wont to be a motherly lap of equity and goodness, there seemeth now to be 1 Litium officina capturarum que improb●orum. a shop of law-quarels, and lewder means to gain by. Thence come those snares of processes, and cautions of the Pope's ordinances, 2 Ad circumscribendam familiam Domini concinnatae. devised to deceive the household of the Lord. Thence come the punishments of sin by the purse, to the increase of Prelate's profits. Thence 3 Sacrilegae mundinae. the sacrilegious & cursed sales of those things which cannot be brought into men's traffic without abomination. I omit 4 Tesseras non modó veniales sed etiam ●ae●●les. their dispensations, which give leave for money to sin without punishment, and licence the breach of sacred laws for filthy lucre. So the holy canons and rules of church discipline, made in better times to guide the life of clergy men: are now become 5 In amusse● plumbean e●asisle, ●uis non videt● leaden rules, such as Aristotle saith the rules of Lesbian building were. For as leaden and soft rules do not direct the building with an equal tenor, but are bowed to the building at the lust of the builders: so are the Pope's canons made flexible as lead and wax, that 6 jam diu. now this great while the decrees of our ancestors, and the Pope's canons serve not to guide men's manners, but (that I may so say) 7 Arg●ntariae facutandae. to make a bank and get money. These things * In the year of Christ 1514. about a three years before ●eo the tenth grew to that outrage which Luther dealt against. 〈…〉 lib. 13. Slei●an. lib. 1. wrote Budaeus, before Luther stirred against the Pope's pardons. So manifestly tended the laws of the Popes to their own profit, and not to the Churches, even in the eyes of sober Papists. And thus have you the sum of that which I said you might learn by the writings of your own men, Onuphrius, and Sansovinus. For whereas the Fathers of the Council of basil, intending and endeavouring to reform the Church, did straighten the fullness of the Pope's power, by f Concil. Basil. Session. 7.12.23. & 31. cutting off the most of his reservations, all his g Sess. 31. advowsons, and h Sess. 12.21. & 23. compositions; by abbridging his i Sess. 31. citations, k Sess. 26. dispensations, l Sess. 20. & 31. appeals, m Sess. 4. & 23. the number and livings of his Cardinals; and chief by n Sess. 2.3.18.26.31▪ & 33. defining (after the o Concil. Constant. Sess. 4. & ● Council of Constance,) that the Pope is bound to obey the Council, and so is subject to it: p In ●oman. Pontif. & Cardinalib. Onuphrius saith thereof, that they under pretence of reforming the church did seek to take away and abrogate altogether the most of 1 Priuilegi●. the privileges of the church of Rome, yea them that were 2 Magis necessaria. most needful. Which sentence bewrayeth the mysteries that I spoke off, if it be marked well. Chief, if it be joined with his q De episcop. tit. & diacon. Cardinalium. discourse of Cardinals, and r In vitis Po●tificum ad●unctis Platinae. story of the Pope's lives: wherein he declareth to what end they used those most needful privileges. Howbeit, in * As namely in the lives of Alexā●er the sixth and Leo 〈◊〉 tenth. their practice of the foulest of them, he is somewhat close: and partly doth smooth them, partly doth pass them over. But Sansovinus is more open: though as a friend also of the Pope's state. For, setting forth s Governo della Corte Roman. Del gone. de reg. & delle repub. lib. 11. the government of the Court of Rome, first, in the Consistory; next, in the Penitentiary; then, in the Courts of requests, one of grace, the other of justice; afterward, in the Chancery; and last of all in the Escheker: he toucheth in effect as much as I have said of the excesses of the Popes, in ordaining the officers, dealing with the causes, disposing the goods, abusing the censures, and making laws of the Church. Yea, a point more; which showeth manifestly their growing out of kind from Bishoply state to Princely: to weet, that there is an ordinary Prelate, called * Vicario di Roma. the Vicar of Rome, to whom they have committed the charge of all those things within the Roman diocese, that belong to any Bishop in his diocese, and so to them in theirs, as Bishops of Rome properly. In fine, if any branch of the particular points, wherewith I have charged them, be not so plain and full in Sansovinus, or Onuphrius: I shall declare it farther, and prove it, if you will, by the records, and testimonies of your own t Matthew Pa●is, and Thomas Walsingam, in the English story: Guicciardin, in the Italian: Aemylius, in the French: Krantzius, in the Saxon: Theodorike Niem, of the Popes: and so forth others, of other states & countries. Chroniclers, u Franciscus Picus Mirand. in orat. ad Lateran. Concil. de moribus reformandis. Polyd. Virgil. de inuentoribu● rerum. Magist. ceremon. sanct. eccles. Rom. Taxae Romanae Paenitentiariae. Antiquaries, x Canonist. comment. & Gloss. in Ius Canonicum. Duaren. de sacris ecclesiae minist. ac benef. Petr. Rebuff▪ Praxis beneficiaria. Lawyers, y Durand. de modo celebrand. council. gener. Petr. de Aliac. Card. de reformat. eccles. Hieron. Pauli Barchinon. Practica cancel a●●e Apost. Fran. Victoria ●elect. 2. & 4. Concilium delectorum Cardinalium. Doctors, and z Pope Gregory the much, Boniface the eighth, Clemens the fifth, and the rest who were authors of the Decretals, Clementines, and Extravagants. Pope Pius the second, in Epist. praesertim de moribus German. Pope Leo the tenth▪ in Concil. Lateran Session. 9.10. & 11. Pope Paul the third, in Reg. Cancellar. Apost. Pope julius the third, in perpet. constitut. de quingentis ducatis Cardinalium. Pope Pius the fifth and Gregory the thirteenth in Ecloge Bullar. & Motu proprior. Popes. Whereupon I am content to make even yourself judge, M. Hart, (if the bogs of Popery have not quenched all sparkles of conscience, and judgement in you,) whether that the Pope hath not erred in office, and changed his Bishops See into a Prince's Court, and usurped the power of imperial State through shows of Church-government: by rebelling against the Emperor, and wresting his dominions from him; by for●ing kings, and nations to serve him, as vasals; by robbing peoples of their pastors, pastors of their livings, the rude of instruction, the lose of correction, the distressed of comfort, the poor of relief and (to conclude) the Christian Church of doctrine, discipline, and hospitality. john Rainoldes to the Christian reader. When I sent this part of our conference to M. Hart, that, if any thing in his own speeches were not to his mind, he might add, or alter, as he thought good: I penned not his answer to my former speech, but wrote these words under it. I pray, M. Hart, make and pen your own answer to this last speech of mine. If you can justify the Pope in those things which I have laid unto his charge: I will subscribe to all Popery. If you cannot: acknowledge his sumacie to be unlawful. john Rainoldes. To this request, & offer, M. Hart sent me his answer in writing. Which I have set down (here following) word for word, and so have proceeded on in our conference, as he desired me to do. If you speak unfeignedly, M. Rainoldes, as I trust you do: The seventh Division. I must love you the better for your plain dealing in so weighty a matter. That you do not see how the Pope may be justified, (I speak not of his naughty and corrupt manners, but of his supreme and sovereign authority, which is, as I take it, agreeable to the Scripture, and Christ's own appointment:) it seemeth to me that your error herein proceedeth of a wrong persuasion, that he had not that authority by right, but usurped it. Which is not so: as I have already showed in part, and now will prove unto you farther. For it is so far off from being usurped authority, that if we will weigh things but with indifferency and in equal balance, you shall well perceive that both Emperors, and other Princes adjoining unto him, have rather usurped of his, than he of theirs. In so much that a good autour doth write that through the Pope's negligent looking unto it, S. Peter's patrimony is greatly diminished. Yea, perhaps, it is much less now at this time, (how great or how lordly soever it seem in your eye,) than it was in the very best times almost thirteen hundred years since. For, to begin with the donation of Constantine the great, he, (as Eugubinus writeth) resigned to S. Sylvester Pope and to his successors the city of Rome with all his Imperial robes, and ornaments, himself retiring to Constantinople, where he abode as in his Imperial seat, as also many other Emperors after him for many years together did, keeping still either at Constantinople in the east, or else at Milan and Ravenna in the west. And this to be a certain story of the gift of Constantine to the Bishops of Rome, besides very many witnesses which here I could cite for proof thereof, as Ammianus Marcellinus a heathen, who was sorry to see it, Photius Constantinopolitanus, no favourer of the Pope neither and a Grecian borne, Nicephorus, and many more beside, as you may read in the Chronicles: S. Damasus, who lived about the same time, and saw Constantine himself, doth write of the said donation and gift of the Emperor. Which gift moreover, to put it out of all doubt, was confirmed a hundred years after by the Emperor justinian, by Arithpert king of the lombards, by king Pipine of France, Charles the great, holy king jews, and lastly by Otho the great at a Council holden at Ravenna, as your own men in their Centuries do grant and confess. For although they say withal that this increase of wealth in the Church of Rome began after S. Gregory's time; yet are they notably disproved by S. Gregory himself, in whose reign, (as it may probably be thought,) the Church's possessions were more than they be now at this present. And this appeareth by sundry of his epistles, where he maketh express mention of S. Peter's patrimony in Africa, in Naples, in Campania, in Dalmatia, in France, in Italy, in Sicilia, in Sardinia, and in many other countries. Now than whereas for this which is the greatest part, so good proofs may be made: there is no doubt but for sundry other very great and large gifts of divers Princes, many Nobles, men and women, which were bestowed upon that See, the Bishops thereof can show very good evidence when need shall require. Marry, if any of all the Bishops that ever were in that seat, flowing thus in wealth, abused the same to any evil purpose, or else their authority when they were become so mighty, in any of the points which are mentioned by you: I am so far off from justifying them therein, that rather I r●w to see it and I condemn them therefore. But thereof we shall have occ●sion to treat more particularly in the chapters following. Only this is it which I go about to prove and defend in them, that because of Christ's promise, of building his Church upon that rock; and prayer also that their faith should not fail, they never erred in judgement or definitive sentence. And thus much I am sure the very same authors, whose names here you bring in against me, do maintain no less than I do, howsoever they carp and find fault with the Pope's naughty manners. Wherefore to draw to an end, whether all that hath been said hitherto, or shall be said hereafter touching the practice of the Pope's supremacy do prove his supreme authority or not: I refer the judgement thereof M. Rainoldes, to yourself, and to every indifferent reader. Certes I have endeavoured somewhat to do it, though nothing so well, I grant, as such a cause requireth. But as I said you shall see it proved yet furthermore by the practice thereof which the Bishop of Rome hath always used, bearing himself as supreme pastor of our souls next under Christ: which thing was never denied him but granted of all men without resistance. Let their speeches, and deeds be a justifying of him: and let their behaviour generally towards him be an instruction for us to follow them in their well doing. john Hart. Rainoldes. If you love me the better, M. Hart, for my plain dealing in so weighty a matter, as you say you must: I would to God you would deal as plainly with me, that I might in like sort love you the better too. But neither do you yield to that which I have proved by evidence of tru●h: and although you cannot disprove my proofs of it, yet you seek to shift them off by fraud and falsehood. For whereas I showed that the Pope pretending discharge of his office in government of the Church, hath gotten his temporal dominion from Emperors by tre●son, and rebellion; and practised unlawful power in things spiritual to the oppressing of Christendom; and therefore erred in office, yea, in the supremacy which he hath usurped over both the states spiritual and temporal: you, for the first point of his dominion temporal, do go about to clear him by sophisms, and lies; for the next of his tyranny in spiritual things, you smooth it, as a lawful authority abused; for the last of his erring in office, you abridge it to judgement and definitive sentence; and wrap his supremacy up in general words as allowed by all men, when in the particular points of the supremacy you can not justify it by any. a Act. 26 24. Festus the Roman thought Paul to be mad: the madness was in Festus himself, no● in Paul. You think that I err of a wrong persuasion: the error is your own, not mine, M. Hart. The faults of your dealing for the maintaining of your error, I will set before you: if perhaps the Lord will open your eyes, and untie your tongue, that you may at length perceive and confess the Pope's supremacy to be unlawful. To begin therefore with the first point wherein you seek to clear him from having usurped his temporal dominion▪ you say, that if we weigh things with indifferency, and in equal balance, I shall well perceive that both Emperors and other Princes adjoining unto him have rather usurped of his, than he of theirs. Which, if you took not things at hucksters hands without all weighing of them, you would never say. For, that which I have laid in one scale of the balance, is the manifest truth of records, & evidences, approved by the witness of writers very credible, who note the times, the persons, the means, and all circumstances how the Pope usurped. And that which you lay in the other scale, to overweigh mine, is partly impertinent, and nothing to the purpose: partly untrue, and impudently forged. The weightiest parcel of it, is that which cometh foremost, namely, that a good autour doth write, that S. Peter's patrimony is greatly diminished through the Pope's negligent looking unto it. What is that good autour (M. Hart) who writeth so? Why do you not name him? Is it because you fear that I should find he maketh nought for you, if I knew him? or that you would put me to the pains of seeking him? I pray use hereafter at least so much plainness, to name me the authors, on which your proofs are grounded: sith I not only name them, but quote their places also whereon I ground mine, that you may the better sift them, and judge of them. The autour, who writeth that which you allege, is * De corrupto ecclesiae statu: or (as in Gerson it is entitled,) De vitijs ministrorum ecclesiae. Nicolas Clemangis, a Doctor of Paris, that lived about a ninescore years since: in deed a good autour. Who lamenting the wretched and corrupt state of the Church in his time, declareth the Pope to have been the firebrand of her calamities and disorders, in that, b cap. 4. not contented with the fruits and profits of the Bishopric of Rome and S. Peter's patrimony, though very great and royal, he laid his greedy hands on other men's flocks replenished with milk and wool; and c cap. 5. & 7. usurped the right of bestowing bishoprics, and livings ecclesiastical throughout all Christendom; and d cap. 5. disannulled the lawful elections of pastors by his reservations, e cap. 6. provisions, and f cap. 7. advowsons; and g cap. 8. oppressed churches with first fruits of one year, of two years, of three years, yea sometimes of ●oure years, with tithes, with exactions, with procurations, with spoils of Prelates, and infinite other burdens; and h cap. 9 ordained collectors to seize upon these taxes and tributes throughout all provinces, with horrible abusing of suspensions, interditements, and excommunications, if any man refused to pay them; & used such merchandise with i cap. 10. suits in his k cap. 11. Court, and rules of his Chancery, l cap. 12. that the house of God was made a den of thieves; and raised his Cardinals, as complices of m cap. 13. his pomp, from Clergymen of lowest state to be the peers of Princes; & enriched them with his dispensations n cap. 14. to have & to hold offices & benefices, not two, or three, or ten, or twenty, but a hundred, or two hundred, yea sometimes four hundred, or five hundred, or more, and those not small or lean ones, but even the best and fattest; to be short, in that he filled the sanctuary of the Lord with dumb dogs & evil beasts, o cap. 19 & 20. even from the highest Prelates p cap. 7. & 24. to the basest hedge-priestes, through his usurpations, q cap. 29. exemptions, compositions, his r cap. 42. Simony, prostitution, and fornication committed with Princes of the earth; and all, t cap. 3.4.5. & ●. to maintain the pride, lust, s cap. 18. and riot of his worldly state, which he hath lifted up above kings and Emperors. Hart. You like and lay open the words of Clemangis, as of a good autour, in that he reproveth abuses of the Popes. But what say you to that for which I alleged him, u cap. ●. that S. Peter's patrimony is greatly diminished through the Pope's negligent looking unto it? Rainoldes. I say that you were abused by Chronogr. lib. 3. i● Boni●acio tertio. Genebrard, on whose word and credit you took that of Clemangis as making for this purpose, to which it cometh nothing nigh. For, y He wrote it in the year 1402. as it seemeth ●y his words, De corrupto ecclesiae statu, cap. ●6. after three and twenty years of the fiftie-yeares-schisme. it is little above nine score years since that was written by Clemangis. And what if the temporal dominion of the Popes (called S. Peter's patrimony) were diminished then by the successors negligence? Might not the predecessors therefore have usurped it of the Emperors long before that time? How much more probably might I allege Clemangis for proof of the contrary: in as much z cap. 45. as he saith, that the church 1 I●perij multa sibi ●ura occupa●it. usurped many things belonging of right to the Empire? But because I love not to build so strong conclusions upon so weak premises: it sufficeth me that the good autour, on whom you build yours, dischargeth not the Popes from having got their temporal dominion by treason. For, it followeth not that none of them were traitors eight hundred years ago, because before these ninescore years some were negligent: no more, then that the father was not an usurer, because the son is a bankrupt. Wherefore, the weightiest parcel of that which you lay in for the Pope's patrimony, is as light as a feather. The next, is somewhat lighter. For you say, that perhaps it is much lesser now at this time, than it was in the very best times almost thirteen hundred years since: perhaps, it is much lesser. Now, without perhaps, you presume much of some want in us, if you think that a doubtful and uncertain guess may win us from a certain and undoubted truth. Hart. Nay, you mistake my meaning, if you take my [perhaps] so. For, that word is used oftentimes of modesty, when men do not doubt of that which they say. Neither do I of this: as you may perceive by my proofs of it. Rainoldes. But a Genebrard. Chronogr. lib. 3. in Bonif. tert. he, whose steps you tread in, used 2 Fortasse. it of subtlety rather than of modesty: that if his proofs failed, yet they might find favour because they came in with perhaps. Which help you shall perceive that the proofs also of your [perhaps] here do stand in need off, if you weigh them with indifferency. The donation of Constantine beareth the bell amongst them. For he (you say) resigned to S. Silvester Pope and to his successors the city of Rome, with all his Imperial robes and ornaments, retiring himself to Constantinople, where he abode as in his imperial seat, as also many other Emperors after him for many years together did, keeping still either at Constantinople in the East, or else at Milan & Ravenna in the West. And how do you prove that Constantine did so? Forsooth Eugubinus writeth it, you say; & proof is made of it by very many witnesses, as namely by Ammianus Marcellinus a heathen, who was sorry to see it; by Photius Constantinopolitanus, no favourer of the the Pope neither, and a Grecian borne; by Nicephorus; yea by S. Damasus, who lived about the same time, and saw Constantine himself; yea by our own men, who grant in their Centuries that the said donation of Constantine was confirmed a hundred years after by the Emperor justinian, by Arithpert king of the Lombard's, by king Pipine of France, Charles the great, holy king jews, and lastly by Otho the great at a Council holden at Ravenna. So: your witnesses then for Constantine's donation are Eugubinus, Ammianus, Photius, Nicephorus, Damasus, and our Centuries. Are these all? No. For you add that there are many more beside, as I may read in the Chronicles. In the Chronicles? In what Chronicles? You mean in the Chronicles written by Genebrard; whom in this whole point of the Pope's temporal dominion you follow. Alas, M. Hart, give not yourself over so to be abused by that shameless man: who maketh no conscience of dealing most lewdly with all sorts of authors, to flatter those ambitious usurpers of Rome, and uphold their villainy. Hart. Nay, you are abused, or rather do abuse that worthy painful man, who seeketh nothing but the maintenance of the catholic faith. But it irketh you that he hath disclosed the lies, stains, and frauds of the Centurie-writers: against whom his Chronicles are specially written. Rainoldes. Whether I abuse him, or he you, neither you only but all sorts of authors: the trial is easy. You say that the donation of Constantine is proved by them whom you named, and many more beside, as I may read in the Chronicles. The many more beside, whom I read alleged in your Chronicle-writer, are Zosimus, Nauclerus, S. Isidore, S. jerom, Gratian, Iuo, Picernus, and the jews, Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra. Do you rehearse his words, wherein he allegeth both these and the rest whom yourself named: and as you shall find him to deal in this point with all sorts of authors, so speak of him hereafter, and credit him in others. Hart. I doubt not but he dealeth as a good Catholic. b Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 3. in Sylu●stro primo. His words (touching Constantine's donation, and the witnesses by whom he proveth it) are these, if you will have them. Constantine the Emperor did give Rome and all the Imperial robes and ornaments to S. Sylvester Pope, and to his successors, as Eugubinus proveth manifestly in two books, and Photius the Greek Patriarch in his Nomocanon, the eighth title, the first chapter. Rainoldes. Well. Eugubinus and Photius do prove it. But do they prove that which Genebrard defendeth? Hart. What else? For he defendeth the donation of Constantine. Rainoldes. But defendeth he the greater donation of Constantine, or the lesser? Hart. The greater or the lesser? What mean you by that? Rainoldes. There are two donations of Constantine mentioned in the Canon law: the one in c Distinct. 96. c. Constantinus. the decrees, wherein it is said that he gave the Pope both his palace, and the city of Rome, and all the provinces, places, and cities of Italy, or the western countries: the other in d c. Fundamen●a. de elect. in Sext. the decretals, wherein no more is said but that he gave the city of Rome. This I call the lesser donation of Constantine, which giveth Rome only: the other, the greater, which giveth Italy also with the countries of the west. And whether of them is it, that Genebrard defendeth? Hart. Whether of them, say you? Or what skilleth that? Rainoldes. It skilleth very much. For the lesser seemeth somewhat to discredit the report of the greater: as it is observed by one of the best witnesses that Genebrard hath, I mean e Chronograph. volume 2. generat. 11. Nauclerus. Who, having showed, that Constantine left Italy and other kingdoms of the west to his sons by testament, and therefore it is likely that the decree which saith he gave them to the Pope * Paleam esse, & nihil probare. is chaff (as the lawyers call it) and proveth nothing: whereto (saith he) the decretal maketh not a little, which treating of Constantine's donation speaketh only of the donation of the city of Rome, making no mention of Italy and other provinces. But whether this report of the lesser in the decretals discredit the greater in the decrees, or no: the greater is so brainless in the eyes of all men that have sense and reason, that not your historians only do nip it, as f Chronicorum ● lib. 4. cap. 3. Otho Frisingensis, g De vit. Pont. in johann. sept. and Platina, and h Saxon. lib. 4. cap. 11. Metrop. lib. 2. cap. 1. & lib. 11. cap. 24. Krantzius; but also D●ctors and Divines, as i De concord. cathol. lib. 3. cap. 2. Cardinal Cusanus, and k In pract. Cancellar. Apost. Hieronymus Paulus, and l De falsó credita & ementita Constant. donat. Laurentius Valla, yea m Papa Pius in dialogo. Citatur ab Hier. Paul● in Pract. Cancel. Apost. Pope Pius himself, have written purposely he would defend the lesser. For he saith that Constantine did give Rome to Sylvester: Rome, that is the city, and not all the western Empire of Rome. Hart. His words indeed do seem so: and I think he meant not to defend the greater. Rainoldes. Think? Nay you may be sure that he meant not. For in the same place, upon the words that you rehearsed, I (saith he) have always denied this consequence: 1 Aliqua sunt ficta & addita ad donationem Constantini. Somewhat is forged and added to the donation of Constantine; therefore all is forged. For it is certain that Constantine gave many things to the Church of Rome: but 2 Alia, & mult● plu●a aliunde acc●ssis●e. more things a great deal have come unto it other whence, either by the gifts of Princes and rich men, or by the testament of the godly, or by the purchasing of Popes, by exchange, and so forth, and the dispensation and providence of God. So that in Genebrards' judgement Pope Sylvester and his successors have gotten a great deal more by other means, then by Constantine's donation. But they have not gotten more than the greater donation of Constantine in the decrees doth give them. For it doth give them all the provinces, places, and cities of Italy, and other countries of the west. In Genebrards' judgement therefore the greater donation of Constantine is forged: and that which he defendeth must be the lesser only. Hart. The lesser only be it. What gather you thereof? Rainoldes. I gather that Genebrard dealeth like himself, when he saith that Constantine's donation is proved by Photius the Greek Patriarch, and Eugubinus in two books. For Eugubinus writeth in defence of the greater donation of Constantine: avouching n Augusti●. Steuch. ●ugubin. contr. Laurent. Vallam de ●alsa donatione Constant. lib. 1. that he gave, not the city of Rome alone unto the Pope, no nor the country of Italy, but the whole West, even the Western Empire; in so much that o lib. 2. he nameth particularly the kingdoms of England, of France, of Spain, of Arragon, of Portugal, of Denmark, of Norway, Swethland, Boheme, Hungary, Dacia, Rustia, Croatia, Dalmatia, Sardinia, and Corsica, and saith that they are all subject to the Pope, by right of that donation. As for the Patriarch Photius, he speaketh not a word of any donation. That which Genebrard meaneth is in one p Theodor. Balsamon in Nomocan. Phot. u●. 8. cap. 1. Balsamon commenting on Photius: and it is the same that Eugubinus writeth for. What think you now of him, who saith that Eugubinus and Photius the Greek Patriarch do manifestly prove that donation to be true, which himself confesseth to be false and forged? Hart. But the next writer whom he allegeth, namely Zosimus, is fit for his purpose: as speaking of the lesser donation precisely. For q Zosim. histor. lib. 2. Constantine (saith he) departed out of Rome, and removed thence the majesty of the Empire▪ to Constantinople, because he knew himself to be misliked of the Romans for altering of religion. Rainoldes. What? Doth this prove that Constantine gave the city of Rome unto the Pope, because he departed from Rome to Constantinople? Hart. As Genebrard concludeth of it. For 3 Constantinus cessit Roma. Cessit, cui● Non ●●natui, non populo. Pontifici igitur. he departed: to whom? Not to the Senate, not to the people: for that hath no man written. Neither did the Senate or people ever claim it. To the Pope therefore: who sith that time possesseth and keepeth it as his own; hath old records, and evidences, and revenues of it. Rainoldes. The wit of a Sophister. As if a man should say: king Henry departed from the city of London unto Windsor castle, and removed the Court thither. He departed: to whom? Not to the Aldermen, not to the Citizens: for no man saith so. Neither did the Aldermen or Citizens ever claim it. To the Bishop therefore: who sith that time possesseth and keepeth it as his own; hath old records, and evidences, and revenues of it. Hart. Nay, that is a lie, that the Bishop of London possesseth the city as his own sith that time. Rainoldes. Even so is the other. For the Emperors possessed Rome four hundred years after the time that Constantine departed to Constantinople: as your own r De occidentali imperio: & regno Italiae. Sigonius showeth in his stories. Hart. But king Henry governed still the city of London by the Lord Mayor: as Princes have been wont to do. Rainoldes. So the Emperors governed too the city of Rome s De officio praefe●●● vibi. Dig. & Cod. lib. 1. Corn. Tacit. Annal. lib. 6. Ammian. Marcellin. lib. 14. Notitia provinciar. Imperii Rom. by a Lord deputy. Yea Genebrard might easily have found in his t Histor. lib. 6. de Attalo praefecto urbis. Zosimus the one of those Deputies took upon him to be Emperor. If he could show by Zosimus that a Pope had done so: what a proof were that of Constantine's donation? Hart. The Popes enjoyed not a while the full power: yet had they right unto it. Howbeit Ammianus Marcellinus showeth they had the power too: as Genebrard declareth after. But first he confirmeth their right out of S. Damasus. Rainoldes. Out of Damasus? How? Hart. S. Damasus, who saw Constantine, hath written of that donation: as even the Centurie-writers affirm in the seventh chapter of the fourth century. Rainoldes. Two lies, with one breath. For neither hath Damasus written of it: nor do the Centurie-writers affirm that he hath. Nay they affirm the contrary. For, in u Centur. 4. cap. 7. tit. de Primatu. the very place that Genebrard allegeth, they say, that neither historians have made mention of it, such as are Eusebius, Eutropius, Rufinus, Socrates, Theodoret, Euagrius, Paulus▪ Diaconus, Beda, Orosius, Zonaras, Nicephorus, and the like: nor they who wrote the lives of Emperors, or of Popes, as jerom and Damasus, though yet he speaketh somewhat of things given by Constantine: nor other famous Doctors whose monuments are extant, as Athanasius, Basil, Ambrose, Optatus, Gregory Nyssen, Gregory Nazianzene, Austin, and Chrysostom: nor the Popes themselves when they were to prove their supremacy in Counsels did speak a word of that donation, which they would then have cast forth, as shipmen do the sacred ancre in great peril. Hart. The words are not so flat and perfit in the Latin, as you do english them. For, upon the name of Damasus, it followeth: qui etsi quaedam de donis Constantini dicit, tamen alij insignes eccl●siarum doctores- Rainoldes. But if you read it so: the clause ensuing is unperfit, and hath no sense at all. A very manifest token that somewhat is a miss, through either the writers, or printers, or correctors fault. And that is [qui] mistaken (as I guess) for [neque,] and put out of his place: where it ought to follow upon the name of Damasus, etsi quaedam de donis Constantini dicit tamen; neque alij insignes ecclesiarum doctores- But howsoever the words are to be amended: the sense must needs be as I said touching Damasus. For the sentence is plain so far, that neither Ierom nor Damasus have mentioned that donation of Constantine: as plain, as that which followeth, that it is not mentioned by other famous Doctors neither. And who can imagine that the Centurie-writers should say that Damasus wrote of it: when it is so clear that he wrote not, that your x Practica Cancellar. Apost. Hieronymus Paulus, & Cusanus do bring his authority for a special reason against the donation. y De concord. cathol. lib. 3. cap. 2. The right therefore of it is not proved by Damasus. Now, is the possession proved any better out of Ammianus? Hart. Ammianus Marcellinus, an heathen, doth closely signify some such thing, while he complaineth and grudgeth at the Pope's wealth and power: in the seven and twentieth book of his story. Rainoldes. Ammianus, (saith Genebrard) doth closely signify some such thing. In deed some such thing: but so far from that thing, that better nothing were said of it. For thus saith Ammianus Marcellinus, an heathen, of Damasus suing to be Pope. Damasus and Vr●icinus burning with immoderate ambition of getting the Bishopric of Rome, did fall to very sharp bickerings through parts taken: in so much that the matter grew between them to the shedding of blood and to manslaughter. Which tumult Viventius (who was the Lord Deputy) being neither able to pacify, nor to redress, was forced through their outrage to withdraw himself out of the city into the suburbs: and Damasus through the valiant behaviour of his faction got the conquest in the fray. And it is certain that in the Church of Sicininus (where Christians make their assembly) there were found 1 Centum triginta septem cadavera peremptorum. a hundred thirty and seven carcases of men slain in one day: and the people furiously bend a great while, was afterward hardly assuaged. Neither do I deny, considering the bravery and pomp used in Rome, but they who aspire thereto should strive with might & main to obtain it: sith when they have gotten it, they shall be at such ease, enriched with 2 Oblationibus matronarum. the gifts and offerings of matrons, and carried abroad in wagons, and going in gay apparel, and following so riotous fare, that their banquets are more than princely: who might in deed be happy if they would contemn the stateliness of the city, (which cloak they use for their vices,) and would live as certain Bishops do in provinces: whom great moderation in use of meat and drink, and meanness of apparel, and modesty of countenance, commend, as pure, and shamefast, to God and to the godly. Behold, this is the wealth and power of the Pope which Ammianus Marcellinus complaineth off and grudgeth at. Some such thing it is as Constantine donation: but it is not it. For the wealth, is the pomp and bravery that they maintained by the offerings of matrons. The power, is a faction of cutters, so desperate, that when they slew above a hundred in a fray, the Lord deputy could not help it. But the very naming of the Lord deputy (sent thither by the Emperor) should have taught Genebrard that the Emperor kept the city still as his own, and was the sovereign Lord of it. Wherefore that which he findeth in Ammianus Marcellinus touching the Pope's wealth and power, is in respect of wealth, the donation of matrons; in respect of power, the donation of cutters; but in respect of neither the donation of Constantine. Hart. Nay, in that (I think) you are deceived greatly, that you say the Emperor kept still the city as his own because he sent a Deputy thither. For that Deputy or Lieutenant was there to keep the city, not for the emperors use, but for his safeguard only. Rainoldes. Not for his use, but for his safeguard? Hart. I: lest the Pope growing daily mightier by reason of wealth, and bordering upon him, should encroach on somewhat of his upon occasion. As Princes now adays are wont to have their Deputies and Lieutenants resident in cities near their territories for their own safeguard, and not to keep the cities as theirs, which are not theirs. Rainoldes. Ambassadors or Agents perhaps they may have in realms or cities near them. But that the French king should have a Lieutenant or Deputy in London, or that the Queen of England's Deputy in Ireland should keep it not for her use, but for her safeguard only: Princes now a days (I hope) use not that; sure the Emperors did not. For they had their Lieutenants in the city of Rome, not as Agents, but as Regent's; and their Lieutenants kept it both to their safeguard, and their use: as z Epistolar. lib. 10. epist. 15.16.17.27.30.34. & caeteris ad Valentin. Theodol. & Arcad. Impp. Symmachus, a famous Lieutenant of the city, and a Valentinianus & Theodosius. In Cod. Theodosian. passim. the Emperors who deputed him, do manifestly show. Yea, even b Histor lib. 27. Ammianus himself (to go no further) doth import as much in the very place alleged by Genebrard: where both the Lieutenant is called 1 Vrbis moderator. the ruler of the city, and his 2 Cuius administratio. government is namely noted. So far off was he from dreaming any such thing as you do imagine of Constantine's donation. Hart. It is no great matter, though Ammianus Marcellinus, a heathen, do not prove it. Rainoldes. Not so great, as that Gilbert Genebrard, a Christian, doth falsely charge a heathen with the proof of it. But will you go forward to the rest of his witnesses? Hart. justinian the Emperor 1 Centum póst annis illam donationem confirmavit. confirmed that donation a hundred years after: and then Arithpert the king of the Lombard's, P●pine, Charles the great, jews the godly, and last of all Otho the great in a public council of Ravenna, as the Centurie-writers also do report, 2 Vt etiam Centuriatores totidem verbis referunt. using these very words. Centur. 10. chapt. 10. pag. 538. in Leo the eighth and john his successor: perhaps out of that Authentic (as they call it) or constitution of justinian, 3 Vt Ecclesia Rom. centum annorum gaudeat praescriptione. That the Church of Rome should enjoy the prescription of a hundred years. Rainoldes. A proof of some weight, if all this be true that the Centurie-writers report, yea and report it using these very words, that justinian the Emperor confirmed that donation a hundred years after, and Arithpert, Pipine, Charles, jews, and Otho. But what if these be not the very words in which the Centurie-writers do report it? What if the Centurie-writers do not report it at all? As in deed they do not. For these are c Centur. 10. cap. 10. pag. 538 their words: Pope Leo the eighth to show his thankfulness to the Emperor (by whom he had the Popedom) restored to the Empire the things which either Constantine or Charles gave unto the Church, or justinian confirmed before him, or Arithpert the Lombard king bestowed on it. Now we have set down before out of Krantzius in the tenth chapter of the fourth book of his story of Saxony the copy of the letters by which Leo restored them. Thus far the Centurie-writers. Wherein, first, they speak not of Constantine's donation either the greater or the lesser, but in general only of things that he gave. Which might be other things, and not the city of Rome. Secondly, they say not, [the things which he gave, and Charles did confirm,] but [the things which either he or Charles gave:] that it might be Charles donation, and not his, for any thing that they say. Thirdly, * Quaevel Constantinus donavit, aut Carolus dedit ecclesiae. their very words are the words of Krantzius, whom they allege and d Krantz. Saxon. lib. 4. cap. 10. quote: and Krantzius doth speak them by way of a jest. For neither is Constantine named in the letters in which he saith that thankfulness is showed by Pope Leo: and e cap. 11. upon the letters he frameth a reproof of Constantine's donation. So that, to prove it by those words of Krantzius, is, as if the Pharisees should prove their traditions by that speech of Christ: f Mark. 7. ●. Well do ye reject the commandments of God, that ye may observe your own tradition. Fourthly, the Centurie-writers do not as much as mention either jews, or Pipine; neither here, nor g In johann suceessore Leonis octavi. after where they mention Otho. Finally, not one of all that are mentioned is reported by them to have confirmed that donation. No not justinian: of whom the show is greatest as Genebrard doth cite their words, that he confirmed it after a hundred years. Hart. Yet their own words are that justinian confirmed things unto the church. Rainoldes. And so justinian did. For Novel. consti● 9 ut ecclesia Romana centum annorum gaudeat praescriptione. his constitution which Genebrard allegeth out of his Authentikes, that the Church of Rome should enjoy the prescription of a hundred years, hath this force, that whereas thirty years prescription did hold against the lands and possessions of others in actions and suits of law, no less than a hundred should hold against the lands and possessions of others in actions and suits of law: no less than a hundred should hold against the lands and possessions of the Church. Though the Centurie-writers meant by [confirming] the assuring of those things that any way came from justinian: as appeareth by i Epistola Leonis Papae apud Krantzium Saxon. lib. 4. cap. 10. the letters which they refer themselves unto. But Genebrard doth take the advantage of 1 Confirmavit. the word, and helpeth it with adding [ * Centum póst annis. a hundred years after,] which fitteth some what roundly the time that justinian reigned after Constantine: to the intent, that the term of a hundred years in justinian's constitution might be thought to have respect to Constantine's donation. In the which dealing he doth notorious injury not only to them, but to justinian also. To justinian, by laying on him a lewd slander, that he did confirm, yea confirm by law, a surmised donation devised against all law. To them, by putting words of falsehood in their mouth; nor making them only false witnesses, but also foolish; as if they had thought a thing to be confirmed by that constitution, whereof the constitution hath no word at all. And as it were to fill up the measure of his iniquity, he addeth that 2 Vt etiam Cen●uriatores totidem verbis ●eferunt. they report it using those very words: to persuade the credulous thereby (as he hath you) that Constantine's donation cannot be doubted of▪ sith it was confirmed by the Emperor justinian a hundred years after, as our own men in their Centuries do grant. Hart. Perhaps there is some other place in justinian, that maketh proof of it. For while I perused the Tables of that book of the Authentikes which was lent me to search out this in: I was thereby directed to a place in justinian where Constantine's donation is proved most plainly: to weet, in gloss. sing. secundum Bald: in l. 2. §. Cum urbem. ff. de office praefect. urbis. Rainoldes. It is not plainly proved there, but barely said; and said, not in the text, but in the gloze only; nor in the gloze upon justinian, but the Digests; and that without all ground either of any autour of the Digests, or of justinian. Hart. But in the gloze upon justinian himself, even in the Authentikes, there is an other place where the same question is handled pro and con: and there although he say that Constantine could make no such donation de iure, yet he denieth not but that he made it de facto. Rainoldes. Yet he denieth not: and * Licet solutio facti ad nos non pertineat, soluimus quod de ●ure non valuit 〈◊〉 donatio. he affirmeth not; but leaveth it as he found it. Why do you trifle so with the glosewriter? Who though he had affirmed the donation of Constantine: doth that prove the point avouched by Genebrard, that justinian confirmed it? If I had thought that you would make such account of the words of lawyers: I could have alleged men skilfuller of antiquities, than all the glose-writers, against that tale of Constantine. For not only such as k Commentar. in antiqua ●dict. & Senatusconsulta. Franciae. contra abusus Paparum. Carolus Molinaeus, whom you may perhaps suspect for his religion, do write against it, and discredit it: but also that worthy and most learned lawyer, l Parergôn juris. lib. 7. cap. 19 Andrea's Alciatus, disproveth it by Eusebius, Theodoret, Cassiodore, Ammianus Marcellinus, and the consent of all historians; and m Desension. in Molinaeum pro Pont. Max. Remundus Rufus (in his defence of the Pope against Molinaeus, which n De visib. Monar. Eccles. lib. 7. Sanders praiseth greatly) doth allow the same that Alciatus writeth of it. But whatsoever lawyers think of the donation, either for the fact, or for the right of it: you see that it is not confirmed by justinian, as you are borne in hand. Hart. Yes, I make no doubt but Genebrard is able to bring more for himself herein then I have seen, or can find in justinian. Rainoldes. Neither make I doubt but, if he could have brought more, his * Diuturno decem annorum study. Genebrard. praefat. Chronogr. ad Pontacum. ten-yeares study spent upon his Chronicles would have interlaced it. Inthe mean season, whether he be able to bring more or no: you cannot deny but he hath alleged justinian untruly, for that which he hath brought. Hart. But the rest of the writers whom he doth allege, no doubt he doth allege them truly; S. Gregory, S. Isidore, Nauclerus, Photius, Nicephorus, S. jerom, Iuo, Gratian, Picernus, Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra. Rainoldes. He doth allege them truly, I grant, the most of them. But do they prove the point for which he doth allege them? Hart. Yea, and that directly: as by his words you shall perceive. S. Gregory about the six hundredth year of Christ doth show in his epistles that the Church had ample lands and possessions, far and wide through the west. At the which time S. Isidore in his story (as Nauclerus citeth in the eleventh age of his Chronicles) Constantine, saith he, did yield the city to the Pope, and the imperial ornaments, that is to say, the crown, and the white palfrey on the which he road. Altogether as Photius of Constantinople, though otherwise an enemy of the See of Rome, avoucheth in his Nomocanon about the year eight hundred and sixty. Rainoldes. Nay: no more of Photius. For it is not he (as I have showed) who saith it, but Balsamon who commenteth on him. And Balsamon is later by three hundred years. Hart. Yet he was a Grecian too, and an enemy of the See of Rome: and therefore not likely to vouch it, if it were not true. Rainoldes. But Genebrard hath granted that to be false which he voucheth. For he saith that Constantine did give to Pope Sylvester, the provinces, and places, and fortresses of all Italy, or of the western countries, and not the city of Rome only. Neither doth he vouch this in respect of Rome but of Constantinople: which being to enjoy the privileges of Rome o In nomoca●. ●●ot. tit. 8. cap. 1. by a law that Photius rehearseth in his Nomocanon, Now if you will know the privileges of Rome (saith Balsamon) they are enroled in the decree of Constantine's donation made to Pope Sylvester. So that it was for love to the patriarchs See of Constantinople, not to the Popes of Rome, that he avoucheth it: that as Rome might thereby claim all the West, so Constantinople might get all the East. Wherefore, that circumstance, that Balsamon was an enemy of the See of Rome, doth nothing help the credit of Constantine's donation. Neither doth S. Isidore make much more for it, as p Chronogr. volume 2. generat. 11. Nauclerus citeth him. For, as he citeth him, he giveth him a touch withal to overthrow him. There is (saith Nauclerus) no mention of Constantine's donation in any authors, but in the book of decrees: and the Archbishop of Florence, Antoninus, affirmeth in his chronicles, that in ancient books of the Decreees it is not neither. Which I greatly marvel at, sith Isidore reporteth plainly in his story, that Constantine did yield the city of Rome unto the Pope, and all the imperial ornaments, that is to say, the crown, the apparel, and the white palfrey to ride upon. Nauclerus therefore citeth Isidore as saying it: but so, as though he thought all were not well in Isidore, sith there is no mention of it in any authors of credit or antiquity. I showed you q Chap. ●. Diuis. 2. before how the writings of the ancient Fathers have been corrupted to countenance the Pope's power. The story of Isidore might be wrought in like sort to countenance the Pope's pomp, his triple crown, his robes imperial, his * Equi albi phaleris auteis cope●tisque de cremosino ornati. Sacr. ceremon. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. tit. 2. horses of estate. Which to have been so, it is the more likely, because it is testified by r Illyricus, Wigandus, Index & Faber Histor. ecclesiast. Magdeb. Centur. ●. cap. 7. men who had helps to se●ch and see such ancient evidences, that in old copies of Isidore that is not found. And perhaps if that story of Isidore were printed, that we might have the sight of it: it were no hard matter to find s●me tokens there of forgery. At the least, it seemeth that Genebrard himself suspected some weakness in that point of Isidore: and therefore neither citeth him but as out of Nauclerus, and addeth that he wrote at the time that Gregory did speak much of the Church's lands. For, if I mistake not the policy of Genebrard, he mentioneth the ample lands and possessions which the church had far and wide through the west in the time of Gregory: to the intent that men might conceive thereof that the city of Rome was part of those lands, sith Isidore, who wrote at the same time, reporteth that it was given to the Pope. But this observation which he made to strengthen his authors report, doth most of all weaken it. For neither doth Gregory name the city of Rome as part of those lands which in his epistles he showeth that the church had through the west: Hart. But he doth, by your leave. For, in the fifth book, and the twelfth epistle, we make (saith he) Montanus, and Thomas, 1 Liberos & cives Romanos efficimas. freemen, and citizens of Rome. Whereby he declareth that * Ch●onogr. lib. 3. in. Bonifac. tert. Rome was of the Pope's dominion and right, as Genebrard concludeth of it. Rainoldes. Genebrard objecteth ignorance of antiquity to the Centurie-writers. * Romam Pontificii ●uisse ●uris. But in bringing this to convince their ignorance, he bewrayeth his own. For Thomas, and Montanus whom Gregory made freemen and citizens of Rome, were his 2 servitutis iugo. et▪ Famulos Ecclesiae. slaves, or bondmen. Now, amongst the Romans any man might lawfully make his bond men, free: and whom he made free, them he made citizens; as by Dionys. Halica●n●ss. Antiquitat. Romanar. lib. 4. their ancient law, so by u Cod. de Lat. libert. tollend. justinian's, who lived before Gregory's time, and x Institutionu● lib. 1. tit. 5. Libertinorum. revived it. Wherefore the enfranchising of Thomas and Montanus proveth not that Rome was of the Pope's dominion more the● of any other Romans. And so the circumstance of Gregory's time and testimony, which Genebrard would strengthen his tale with, doth weaken it. For neither is the city of Rome named by Gregory amongst the Church's lands, as I was about to say: and at the very time, that Gregory was Pope, the Emperors held the city, & governed it (as they were wont) by a Germanus praefectus urbis. johan. Diacon. in vit. Gregor. lib. 1. cap. 40. Lord deputy. Then hitherto his witnesses of Constantine's donation do bring it small comfort. Do the rest say more for it? Hart. Nicephorus saith in the seventh book, the nine and fortieth chapter, Constantine did consecrate and give unto Christ the palace of Lateran. Which thing S. jerom also had touched before him in an epistle to Oceanus: and experience proveth it even till this day while that is the chief See of the Bishop of Rome. Rainoldes. I perceive it was either a fox or a ferne-bush that Genebrard espied. He thought he had seen the whole city of Rome given by Constantine to the Pope: and now he hath found that Constantine did turn his palace into a church that the Pope might teach there, and Christians come together, to pray and serve God. For this is all that y ●pist. 30. ad Oceanum. jerom and z Histor. ecclesiast. lib. 7. c. 49. Nicephorus say. Hart. But Nicephorus saith farther in the six and fortieth chapter, that Constantine endowed all the churches of the world, and bishoprics, out of his treasury, according to the state and worthiness of them. Therefore he endowed much more the church of Rome then of Eugubium, and so forth. Rainoldes. Nicephorus saith that Constantine did give through all provinces some part of the public revenues to the churches: but not, that he did give according to the state and worthiness of each of them. That Genebrard doth add to keep his hands in ure▪ Howbeit if Nicephorus had said, that he endowed them according to their state and worthiness, and therefore more the Church of Rome then of Eugubium: yet is not the donation proved by Nicephorus. Hart. But read him also in the eighth book, the third and fourth chapters; & in the tenth book, the fifth chapter. Rainoldes. And there shall you find as much as in the former. Hart. Iuo in his Pannomia, about the year of Christ eleven hundred and ten, doth ●ite certain things out of the charter of the privilege of Constantine's donation. Gratian about the year eleven hundred and fifty; Bartolomaeus Picernus, and many more, do bring forth either all, or parts of it. Rainoldes. Picernus? What an autour is he to prove it? A hungry companion, who lived the last day: and, to curry favour with julius the Pope, he translated into Latin a little Greek book containing Constantine's donation, which he found, where? a Bartolom. Picern. in praefat. donat. Constant. ad julium secundum Po●t. Max. in the Pope's library. Gratian is more ancient: and the whole charter of the donation is in b Distinct. 96. c. Constantinus. him. But neither is it extant in old copies of Gratian, as c Antoninus' histor. part. 1. tit. 8. cap. 2. Illyricus in tes●ibus veritatis. tit. Donatio Constantini. they do witness who have seen them: neither are we sure by either old or new in which it is extant, that Gratian did put it in. For in each sort of them, both written, and printed, it is entitled [palea] that is to say, chaff: which note (as d Antonius Contius. c. cum enixa. Dist. 5. in Annotat. a learned and famous lawyer thinketh) is set to those chapters that were not first inserted into the book by Gratian, but added after in the margin by Gratian'S interpreters, as any of them thought good, and in the best and ancientest copies they are omitted wholly for the most part. Now, if in Gratian it crept out of the margin thus into the text: much more is it likely that e Pannom. lib. 4. cap. 1. de privilegijs Constantini Imperatoris concessis Syluestro Papae. Iuo caught it so too. For if it had been of ancient time in Iuo when Gratian compiled the book of decrees: it is not to be thought that Gratian, a man who forgeth authors often and counterfeiteth privileges for less advantage of the Pope, would have left him out such a Princely privilege, if he had found it in an autour. Hart. It is an easy matter with shifts and surmises to discredit authors, as you do Picernus, Gratian, and Iuo. Or, if it be true that Iuo and Gratian did not themselves record it: yet there is no cause why the Greek copy translated into Latin by Picernus should be discredited because it was found in the Pope's library. For there are many rare books in the Pope's library, that are not else where to be found. Rainoldes. But the Greek text of Constantine's donation was else where to be found. For it is in Balsamon translated into Latin also by Gentian Heruet. And this doth discredit the matter so much more: because the Latin charter (or chaff) that is in Gratian doth differ from the Greek in many things. Besides that, Picernus hath showed a special favour to the Pope in it: unless the Greek which he found in the Pope's library were somewhat better filed than that which Heruet found in Balsamon▪ For wherein Gratian'S Latin it is, that the Emperor gave unto the Pope the places, cities, and provinces Italiae sive occi ●a●alium ●egionum. of Italy, or of the western countries; as it is in Italiae seu occ●dent●lium. Heruet too: Picernus hath mended it, and made it, 3 Italiae & occi●entalium. of Italy, and of the western countries. Which was a small token of no small good will that Picernus showed toward the Pope against Declamat. de 〈◊〉 clad. & e●●ent donat. Constant. Valla: who noted that word [or] abused for [and,] as unlikely that the Emperor or the emperors officers should write so in a charter of so great importance, and in so large a deed of gift. Though this is the least of many conjectures that Valla maketh by the style to prove corruption in the deed. Which all, for the most part, Picernus hath washed away by his translation. But if you think that th●se things which I speak of Gratian, or Iuo, or Picernus, are shifts and surmises: then I pray remember that their texts speak ●or the greater donation, which Genebrard confesseth himself to be forged. And therefore Picernus, Iuo, and Gratian are cited to no purpose, by him, who defendeth not the greater but the lesser donation of Constantine. Hart. Yet, what say you then to his last witnesses, who speak directly for the lesser? They are the jewish writers, Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra. For, Rabbi Abraham, in Zikron Dibre Romi, saith that Constantine having built Constantinople, went out of Rome, and gave it to the Priests of the Idumeans (so they call Christians) to this day. And Aben Ezra upon the eleventh chapter of Daniel, on these words, And he shall care for no God: the meaning is (saith he) that Constantine did beautify the place of Rome which was his seat, and l●ft it to the iniquity (so they speak wickedly of the holy Apostles) which is called Peter. Rainoldes. Rabbi Abraham, and Aben Ezra, did live about the same time that Gratian did, or rather somewhat since; when the Pope had gotten fully from the Emperor the sovereignty in Rome. They looked to the state of their own times; and saw that the city, which Constantine had, was now possessed by the Pope. Wherefore sith the bruit of Constantine's donation was set abroach then: no marvel if they tasted of it: chief sith they had so little skill in stories. Hart. Great skill, Rabbi Abraham. For he wrote a Chronicle which Genebrard hath translated out of Hebrew in●o Latin, entitled Cabbala historica. Rainoldes. Whrein he bewrayeth the greatness of his skill. For the Rabbi chronicleth g there, that our saviour (jesus of Nazareth, as he calleth him) was not borne in the days of Augustus the Emperor, and Herode king of jury, but a●ore that time above a hundred years. And thereupon h●e changes the stories of other nations with error, for writing so of Christ's age: but we (saith he) have * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the true tradition & story out of Misna and Talmud, whose authors have not changed any whit of things. Wherefore, if Rabbi Abraham were no better seen in the story of the jews, in that point, whereof he might have learned the truth by their own h Antiquita●. Iu●aicar. lib. 13 cap. 6. ●osephus: you may give him leave to be overseen in the Roman stories. As for Aben Ezra, his words may be taken in a true meaning, that Rome by the occasion that Constantine le●t it, came afterward in process of time to the iniquity which is called Peter, that is, to the Pope. For in deed the emperors abiding at Constantinople made it easier for the Popes to practise those treasons which g●t them Rome at last. But admit he meant that Constantine ga●● Rome to the iniquity called Peter. Will Genebrard confess th●● the Pope (the Peter of Rome) is an iniquity, because that Aben Ezra saith so? Hart. No. For he saith that of a jewish stomach. Rainoldes. And he saith the other of a Romish error. Wherefore if Genebrard refuse his own witness in that he speaketh of affection: I have greater reason to except against him in that he misseth through oversight. And thus you may see how well the donation of Constantine is proved by the witnesses alleged either of yourself, or of your Chronicle-writer. Wherein his abusing of all sorts of authors, & thereby of you, will be the more evident, if it be compared with the dealing of a Bishop that matcheth him in Popery, but passeth him in modesty, I mean of i Loco●. Theolog. lib. 11. c. 5. Melchior Canus. Who allegeth Eusebius, Rufinus, Theodoret, Socrates, Sozomen, Eutropius, Victor, Ammianus Marcellinus, and, in a word, 1 Omnes historici. all historians, with 2 Caeteri probae fidei autores. other approved authors, to show that the donation of Constantine is forged: even the same donation, by which the k c. Fundamenta. de elect. in Sext. Pope's claim the temporal dominion of the city of Rome, and you with your Chronicles do soothe their falsehood in it. Beside that, if Constantine had made this pretenced donation in deed: yet cometh it short of that for proof whereof you cite it, to wéet, that the temporal dominion of the Pope's is much less now, than it was almost thirteen hundred years since. For, the city of Rome, which in this donation is said to have been given them, is but a little corner of their dominion now. Hart. But if you join thereto that which I added of S. Peter's patrimony belonging unto them within two or three hundred years after Constantine: it cometh home to the proof of that which I purposed; at least, to the disproof of that which your men avouch in their Centuries. For although they say that this increase of wealth in the Church of Rome began after S. Gregory's time: yet are they notably disproved by S. Gregory himself, in whose reign, (as it may probably be thought,) the Church's possessions were more than they be now at this present. And this appeareth by sundry of his epistles, where he maketh express mention of S. Peter's patrimony in Africa, in Naples, in Campania, in Dalmatia, in France, in Italy, in Sicilia, in Sardinia, and in many other countries. Rainoldes. You have heard, M. Hart, of sir Thomas More: and perhaps you have read the history written by him of king Richard the third. Hart. A worthy work of a worthieman. Who, if he had gone through in like sort with all our English history, we might compare with Greeks or Romans. But what of that history? Rainoldes. In it he reporteth, that Richard was a tyrant, and did usurp the regal dignity upon himself, defrauding Prince Edward whose it was by right. Doth sir Thomas More say true in this of Richard, or doth he misreport him? Hart. True, out of question: as it is apparent by all our historians, who consent therein. Rainoldes. Yet there is a writer who saith that king Richard did not usurp the crown. And for proof thereof, he bringeth forth sundry old records and evidences of the house of York: by which it is showed that Richard had lands in Calais, in Canterbury, in Kent, in Northumberland, in Ireland, in England, in Garnsey and in jersey, before Prince Edward's time wherein ●ir Thomas More reporteth him to have usurped. Hart. He might have those lands, while he was Duke of Gloucester, and not king of England. Wherefore, the writer who bringeth this to prove that he usurped not the crown, disproveth not the history of Sir Thomas More, but bewrayeth his own frowardness or folly. Rainoldes. You are the writer, M. Hart. I showed by the history of Sigonius, and others, most worthy of credit, that the Pope's usurped Rome, and the dominion of the Roman Dukedom, defrauding the Emperor of his right by treason. You affirm the contrary. And for proof thereof you allege sundry epistles of S. Gregory, whereby it appeareth that they had possessions in Africa, in Naples, in Campania, in Dalmatia, in France, in Italy, in Sicilia, and in Sardinia, before the time wherein Sigonius declareth them to have usurped. But, as yourself answered, they might have these possessions while they were Bishops, and not Princes. Wherefore in bringing this to prove that they usurped not the Princedom (so to term it) and temporal dominion of the Papal State: you disprove not the history of Sigonius, and the rest, but bewray your own frowardness or folly. Nay you bewray greater faults of evil & guilful dealing, as you h●ndle it. For whereas Sigonius, & the rest, whom I cited to prove the Pope's usurping, are of the Pope's religion, & therefore of greater credit against the Popes: you say nought to them, but name in their steed our authors of the Centuries. Even as if the writer (whom I told you of) being urged with the credit of sir Thomas More and English historians, should answer that although Funccius, a Germane, report in his Chronicle that Richard did usurp, yet is he notably disproved by the evidences of the house of York. Again, where your conclusion ought to be resolute that the Churches poss●ssions were more in S. Gregory's time, than they be now: you say they were more, as it may probably be thought. To overbear verity with probability; the truth, with likelihood of truth: and leave yourself a lurking hole, that, although the thing be found to be false, yet you may escape who vouch it not as true, but probable. Moreover, the time of Gregory's being Bishop, you term it his reign: thereby to breed opinion that he had the temporal dominion, as they have now. Wherein that word is used so much the more deceitfully: because it prepareth a way to the mistaking of that which you allege out of Gregory's epistles touching S. Peter's patrimony. For. S. Peter's patrimony doth signify the temporal dominion of the Popes, in that of l De corrupt. eccles. stat. cap. 4 Clemangis, which you began your answer with. And so by this [reign] a man would take it here. Whereas Gregory meaneth the lands of the Church and Bishopric of Rome by S. Peter's patrimony; not the dominion temporal, which they had not then. But in these faults you are the more excusable, because you do follow the footsteps of Genebrard: whose 1 Centuriato●es. Centurie-writers, and 2 Fortasse. perhaps, and 3 Regnum Ecclesiae. kingdom, and 4 Petri patrimoni●●. sophistry might bring you to them unawares. In the next your shame can no way be covered. For whereas your lodesman, having searched Gregory's epistles of purpose for S. Peter's patrimony, could find it in no more places but in those which you rehearsed by name: you thinking such flies too small for the Pope, do add (with flat untruth) and many other countries: beside that [other countries] is brought in so too, as if Campania, Naples, and Italy, were sundry country's, where Naples is a town, Campania a shire of Italy. And yet as though your dealing were sincere and sound, you knit it up thus, that seeing for this which is the greatest part, so good proofs may be made: no doubt but the Popes can show very good evidence when need shall require for sundry other very great and large gifts which were bestowed upon their See, by divers Princes, many Nobles, men, and women. The question is of the temporal dominion of the Popes. The proof you bring thereof from Constantine, is forged; from Gregory, is fond. So that no part is proved yet, much less the greatest. The chiefest of the rest that Popes can show for it, is Pipines' donation, and the successors of Pipine. In it I have convinced them also of usurping: who first did beg and take the territories, and ditions, which should have been restored to their old Lord the Emperor; and afterward did use their n●w Lord as a vassal, and made themselves soveraines of that which was given them to hold in fee. To be short, the vanity of this vaunt of evidence, which the Popes can show when need shall require, may be perceived by m Augustinus S●●uchus Eugubin●s, Aposto●i●●e sedis ●iblio ●hecarius. Eugubinus, their attorney general, and principal proctor in this cause. Who being inflamed with a Popish devotion to say the best that he knew, and furnished with the treasures of the Pope's library to know the best that might be said: yet, after many floorishes for Constantine's donation of the largest size, * Con●●. ●●u●ent. Vall. de 〈◊〉. donat. Constantin. lib 2. he addeth in conclusion that (the Pope) Gregory the third did excommunicate Leo (the Emperor,) and 1 Ab eius imperijs Romana Italianique a●er●it. caused Rome and Italy to rebel against him, 2 Omnibus ●aramento fid●●●tatis absolutis. absolving all his subjects from their oath of fealty. And so he confuteth the lie which himself, and Genebrard do build on, that Rome after Constantine was not the Emperors, but the Popes: and granteth by consequent, that the Pope's temporal dominion in Italy was unlawfully gotten, and wrongfully usurped by this devise of treason. Hart. Nay, n Chronogr. lib. 3. in Sylues● p●im. Genebrard hath other reasons to defend the right of the Pope, if these do not content men. For I (saith he) answer to heretics impugning the donation of Constantine that which jephte did (in the eleventh of judges) to the king of Ammonites requiring the land of Galaad to be restored him: we will possess that which the Lord our God hath conquered and obtained. Unless perhaps thou canst show that any man did strive about it for the space of three hundred years: ( 1 Hic permi●●● & amplius. here for a thousand years and more.) Why so long time have you attempted nothing for the recovery of it? Chief, sith the prescription of certain years sufficeth in grounds and possessions. Moreover, the consent of Italy, and of the Church, and of the whole world is of force enough to give the Pope that right. Finally, that Constantine removed the seat of the earthly Empire to Constantinople through God's special providence, to the end that the kingdom of the Church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might have his seat at Rome, it appeareth by this, that strait the western Emperors, Constans and the rest, who followed for certain ages, 2 Roma sempecesserint. left Rome still, and placed the seat of the western Empire at Milan or Ravenna; and also that Constantius the nephiew of Heraclius, Michael, and certain others would have brought it in again to Rome, but could not. Wherefore howsoever the Pope's dominion temporal began, or whensoever: it is sure that he hath right unto it now. Rainoldes. The point that we reason of, is not (M. Hart) what right he hath now, but what wrong heretofore he hath done the Emperor to obtain this right. Though neither can you prove his right by these reasons. For, that which o judg. 11. ●● jephte spoke of gotten by the Israelites: they got by lawful war. The Pope hath gotten his by unlawful treachery. And prescription holdeth not in things that are stolen, and detained by force: if you believe p ●. Sequitur. 〈◊〉 a●tem. 〈…〉. Dominu●. the law. As for the thousand years and more, which Genebrard addeth that no man strove about it: if he mean, about Constantine's donation, no marvel if they strove not about that which was not. If he mean about that which Popes claim thereby: it hath two untruths; one, that they have held it a thousand years, and more; an other, that no man strove with them about it. For, to pass over the Emperors 9 In the si●th D●●●sion of this cha●ter. before touched, and namely Friderike the first: r 〈…〉 Platin. C●ement. tert. Sigon. de regn. Ital. lib. 11. the Romans themselves had many bickerings with them for the temporal rule and government of the city, contending that the Pope should meddle with the spiritual only. Whereby withal appeareth how vain the brag is of the consent of Italy, the church, and the whole world. Though neither their consent can give the Pope that right: unless the Roman Emperors (the right owners of it) do consent also. And, how they consent, you may learn by late Emperors; of whom, s Maximilian the first. Guicciard. hist. It●l. lib. 9 one desired to recover Rome and all the Pope's dominion, as being his of right; t Charles the fifth. Onuphrius in vita Clement. sept. & Pauli ter●. an other did more than desire i●: or rather by late Popes, u Guicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 16. who are afraid of nothing more, then of the emperors coming into Italy. Now, the last reason of God's special providence removing the seat of the western Empire to Constantinople, to the end that the kingdom of the church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might have his seat at Rome: beside that it is seasoned (after Genebrards' manner) with untruth of story, as that the western Emperors who succeeded Constantine for certain ages, left Rome still, x Zosim. hist. 〈◊〉. 5. Sigon. de Occident. imper. lib. 10. which is disproved by Honorius; it wresteth God's word to the maintenance of man's pride. For the Church's kingdom, which Daniel forespoke of, is y Dan. 7. vers. 18. & 21. &. 25. 1. Machab. 1.22. the kingdom of the jews, touching the temporal state; touching the spiritual, z Dan. 7. vers. 18. & 22. & 27. Hebr. 12.28. the kingdom of the Saints that doth endure for ever. And, if we presume upon the secret works of the providence of God to gather what the fancy of man doth imagine, not what the wisdom of God hath revealed: the Turkish impiety may be as well proved as the Papal kingdom; because as the seat of the western Empire is fallen to the Pope, so Constantinople, the seat of the Eastern, is fallen to the Turk. But whatsoever right these reasons may afford to the Pope now: they acquit him not from having done wrong to the Emperors heretofore, in that he got his temporal dominion from them by treason and rebellion. And this is the first point, wherein you went about to clear his supremacy. The next, is his tyranny in spiritual things. Wherein your defence of him is so tempered, that although you cannot choose but acknowledge his fault in those excesses which I laid open: yet do you smooth them as abuses only of lawful authority, and not unlawful acts of usurped power. For you say, that if any of the Bishops of Rome abused their wealth to any evil purpose, or else their authority, in any of the points mentioned by me: you are so far off from justifying them therein, that rather you rue to see it, and you condemn them therefore. A short and slender answer to all their crimes that I touched. Howbeit, if you speak unfeignedly, M. Hart, as I pray God you do: I am glad that you seek not to justify the Popes in any of the points that I charged them with, but rue and condemn their abuses therein. For I laid to their charge that they have oppressed both the civil state and the ecclesiastical: the civil, in taking upon them to give Empires, to depose Princes, to discharge subjects of their allegiance and oath; the ecclesiastical, in making of Church-officers, ordering of Church-causes, disposing of Church-goodes, executing of Church-censures, and establishing of Church-lawes, to serve their own desires and lusts. In all the which points if you condemn their doings as abuses of their authority: you condemn the practice of their whole supremacy as nothing else in gross but an heap of abuses. Hart. Not of their whole supremacy. For though some of them abused their authority in sundry points which you mentioned: yet others have not done so. As we had experience in Queen Mary's days: wherein there were not so many Church-livings bestowed in England upon Italian Pastors, as you spoke of under Gregory the ninth, or Innocentius the fourth. But howsoever they dealt with practice of their power, which they abused I grant: the power itself must not be therefore thought unlawful; nor was it usurped because it was abused. For Princes abuse their power oftentimes in oppressing their subjects. Yet, you will not say that they usurp their Princely power. Rainoldes. Neither do I say that the Pope usurpeth his Bishoply power, but the supremacy. The usurping whereof you go about to hide with the mist of abusing; while you distinguish not between a lawful power used unlawfully, and an unlawful power. King Edward the fourth did put to death Burdet (a merchant of London) for saying merrily to his son, that he would make him inheritor of the crown: misconstruing his words, as though he had meant the crown of the realm; where he meant his house at the sign of the crown. Herein the king abused his power, and not usurped it: because God had given him the sword to execute justice and judgement on his subject; though he used it unlawfully against an innocent. But if he had executed a subject of the Spanish kings, or had excommunicated his own, yea deserving it; this were an usurped not an abused power: because he did not bear the sword over Spain; and the Church-censures belong to the Bishop's charge, not to the Princes. In like sort the Pope of Rome might remove the Roman Emperor from the communion: as a Sozom en. ●ist. eccles. lib. 7. cap. ●4. Ambrose Bishop of Milan removed Theodosius, being of his charge in the Church of Milan. Which if the Pope did unlawfully, and not as Ambrose: he abused his power. But if he presumed to excommunicate other kings, or to depose the Roman Emperor: the power that he practised therein was unlawful, and he usurped it. Which example of his dealing with the civil state, observeth the tenor of the same disorder in the ecclesiastical. For if he * 1. Tim. 5.22. laid hands rashly upon a man whom he had right to ordain: his power was lawful, though abused. But if he took upon him the right of making Pastors, or of giving benefices and bishoprics through all the world: he did usurp unlawful power. Wherefore sith the tyranny wherewith I charged him in spiritual things was of the supremacy over all Christendom, not of Bishoply power over his own diocese: the power of spiritual rule which he practised over both the states ecclesiastical and civil, is not abused, but usurped. Neither can you salve it with laying the blame on some of the predecessors: as if the successors now were guiltless of it. For, though they do not all commit the same excess in the execution of their usurped power: yet they all maintain the liberty of doing it, and do it when they list. As since Queen Mary's days one of your best Popes, Pius the fifth, hath showed: b ●ulla P●j Quinti contra ●lisabetham, Angliae Reginam. who hath excommunicated, yea, 1 P●i●amus Elisabe●ham praetenso iure regni. deposed also our gracious Queen Elisabeth; and c Regulae Cancellariae Pi● Papae Quinti in ●clog. Bullar. & Motuproprior. reserved benefices, dignities, and 2 Reseruavit generaliter omnes ecclesias Patriarchales, Archiepiscopales, Episcopales, bishoprics to his own bestowing from them who should elect their pastors by right. Of the which things sith he took unlawful power in the one, to depose Princes, as yourself have told me that you are of opinion; in the other, d Nicolaus Clemangis d● corrupto ecclesiae statu: cap. 5. & 7. the author, the good autour (whom you praised) confirmeth that the Popes, bestowing the Church-livings so, do that they ought not: your own conscience, M. Hart, and your authors judgement should move you to confess their supremacy in spiritual things to be usurped, no less, than I have showed it to be in temporal. But if perhaps you will not grant so much yet, suspending your sentence till the chapters following, whereto you refer us: the third and last point, that they erred in office, is proved notwithstanding even by that you grant. And therefore you say that only this is it which you go about to defend in them, that because of Christ's promise, of building his church upon that rock; and prayer also that their faith should not fail; they never erred in judgement, or definitive sentence. Wherein, being driven by force of evident truth from your main distinction, that the Pope may err in person, not in office; as a private man, not as Pope: you retire from all the wards of your castle into the cellar as it were, and say that in a corner of his office he never erred; but otherwise in office and every part thereof he hath. Hart. Nay, this was my meaning by that distinction at the first. As you may perceive by that e In the 3. Divis. of this chapter. I spoke expressly of definitive sentence: and said, that he cannot err judicially. Rainoldes. Then your meaning was to put the coat of Hercules upon a dwarves body. For the Pope's office is a great deal larger than judgement or definitive sentence. And when you said withal that the Evangelists, and other penners of holy write, for the execution of that function had the assistance of God, and so far could not err possibly: you seemed to insinuate that the Popes have likewise the assistance of God for the execution of their function; and can no more err in discharging of it, than could the Evangelists in writing of the Gospel. But sith you see now that in function and office they may be as false, as the Gospel is true; which in every part thereof I have proved: you shall see as much in this remnant also of judgement & definitive sentence, unless you shut your eyes against the light of manifest proof. For what do you mean by saying that the promise and prayer of Christ keepeth them from erring in judgement or definitive sentence? Do you not mean that they cannot teach against the truth in a matter of faith, because the Church of Christ shallbe built upon them, & their faith shall not fail, that they may strengthen their brethren. Hart. I mean (as I declared) that they cannot nor shall not ever judicially conclude or give definitive sentence for falsehood or heresy against the Catholic faith, in their Consistories, Courts, Counsels, decrees, deliberations, or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controversies, doubts, or questions of faith as shall be proposed unto them: because Christ's prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren. Rainoldes. The issue of our conference shall try that they have erred thus in every point of the Catholic faith, wherein they teach against us: as even in this first of their own supremacy. But I will show presently that they have done it in such things as yourselves confess to be doctrines of falsehood or heresy. And that will I show by the same authors (or as good as them) of whom you vouch so boldly, that you are sure they do maintain this, of the Popes not erring in judgement or definitive sentence, no less than you do. ●or In Chronico. Sigebert, g Supputat. ●omanor. Pont. Martinus Polonus, h De reg●. I●al. lib. 6. and Sigonius do witne●●● that Pope Stephen the sixth decreed in a council, that they who were ordained Bishops by Pope Formosus were not ordained lawfully, because the man was wicked by whom they were ordained. Hart. Pope Stephen did deprive them of their orders, & (as Sigebert termeth it) 1 Exordinavit ordinatos a Formoso. did unordeine them who were ordained by Formosus. He erred in a matter of fact, not of faith. Rainoldes. He erred in a matter of fact and faith both. For he did not only deprive and unordeine them who were ordained by Formosus: but he 2 Ordinationes ●●u▪ omnes ●irri●as esse debere decernit. decreed too, (as Sigebert withal noteth) that all the ordeinings of Formosus ought to be void. Wherein he did follow the error of the Donatists: i Aug●●tin. cont●. epist. ●a●men. lib. 2. cap. 13. & 14. De baptism. contr. Donat lib. 1. cap. 1. &. 2. who (as if the sacrament had his force from men that are the ministers of it, not from God, the autour;) thought them not well baptised who were baptised by evil ministers, and so baptised them again. Yea, that very fact of Stephens is reproved therefore by k Re●. per Europe. gestar. lib. 1. cap. 8. Luitprandus, (a grave and learned writer that lived about the same time,) though * For he calleth him Sergius: ●ut it was Stephen, as it appeareth by the Council of Ravenna, under john the ninth. Sigon. de regn. Ital. lib. 6. The humour of Sergius, which Stephen served in it, (as being set up by his faction) occasioned be like the name to be mistaken. mistaking his name, yet judging of the thing rightly. For after the rehearsal thereof, that depriving all them of their degree who were ordained by Formosus, he did ordain them again: which thing (saith Luitprandus) how wickedly he did you may perceive by this, that even they who received grace or Apostolic blessing of judas the betrayer of Christ before he betrayed him, were not deprived of it after he had betrayed him and hanged himself. For the blessing which is bestowed on the servants of Christ, is not powered on them by that Priest which is seen, but by that Priest which is not seen. For neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth, but God that giveth the increase. So manifestly carried the fact of Pope Stephen a savour of Donatisme, that is, of a notorious error in faith: though he had not approved it by his decree. Much more sith he decreed the thing as true and lawful. Hart. To say that holy orders given by a Bishop, be he never so wicked, are void, and of no force: it is an error in faith, I grant. But this of Luitprandus is denied by l In Chronico. Sigebert, that he ordained them again whom he deprived. Rainoldes. whether he ordained them again, or no: it maketh not the matter. Though, by m Concil. Ravenn. ann. Do●● 893. Sigo●. de regn. Ital. lib. 6. the Council in which john the ninth condemned Stephen and his Council, it seemeth rather he did, at the least some of them. For there 1 Reordinationes. new ordeininges are namely forbidden, and matched with 2 Rebaptizationes. new baptizinges. Which, if Stephen had not offended therein as the Donatists did, why should it be so touched? But whether he ordained them again or no: he decreed that which yourselves acknowledge to be an error in faith; & he decreed it in a Council. Hart. But the Council did not approve that decree by free voice & judgement. The Pope did extort their consent through fear: n Sigon. de reg. Ital. lib. 6. as it appeareth by the Council that condemned him. Rainoldes. This is not to prove that the Pope's decréees in councils are good: but to disprove rather the certainty which you gave them in Consistories, Courts, and Counsels. For not only Bishops assembled in the Council, but also Lawyers in the Court, yea Cardinals themselves in the Consistory of the Pope, may agree for fear to that which they like not, as o G●icciard. hist. I●al. lib. 13. Leo the tenth made them to do. And, if the soundness of the Pope's decrees may be distained by this affection: it may by other causes, and impediments also. For what if p Theodoric. a Niem. de schiss. 〈◊〉. 1. cap 5. the Cardinals, misliking of the Pope for reproving their faults, q cap. 7. leave him (as they did Vrban the sixth) and r cap. 10. make a new Pope? What if they be unfaithful that he dare not trust their counsel and advise, s iovius de vita Adrian. sext. as Adrian the sixth durst not? What if they give him lewd and wicked counsel, that it deceive him if he trust it? Such as was the counsel of Cardinal t La●rc●tio Pucio Cardinale, nullum omnino quaestum ponti●icibus illicitum esse praedicante. Cuius, ut divini juris pericissimi, Leo fidem obtestatus est. ne se imprudenter in errorem labi pateretur. iovius de vita Leon. decim. lib. 4. Pucio: who exhorted Popes to make any gain, and said that they might do it lawfully. Chabrias, a skilful man of war said, u Plutarch in apothegm. Reg. & Imperat. that an army of hearts is more to be feared having a lion to their captain, than an army of lions having a hart. You bear us in hand that the Pope is a lion, and other men are hearts. But you make him the hart (me thinks) & them lions, when you say that himself may err and fail in faith, but he can not do it in Consistories, Courts & Counsels. As if Christ had prayed for his brethren to strengthen him, and not for him to strengthen his brethren. Hart. Nay, I made not mention of his brethren so, as if the assurance of truth in his decrees did depend of them. For, though it behove him to use their advise, and therefore I spoke of Consistories, Courts, and Counsels: yet, whether he follow their advise or no, his decrees are true. But as for Pope Stephen, I can not think that he decreed that error. At least, if he decreed it, yet he set not forth a decree of it, as to teach the Church. Rainoldes. But if he decreed it, he erred in judgement and definitive sentence: which is the point that you denied. Howbeit to drive you from this shelter also: Pope Celestine the third x c. Laudabilem de conuersione infideli●m. set forth a decree, that when of married persons one falleth into heresy, the marriage is dissolved, and the catholic party is free to marry again. Flat y Mart. 19.9. against the scripture, that whosoever dimisseth his wife, but for whooredom, and marrieth an other, doth commit adultery; and whosoever marrieth her that is dismissed, doth commit adultery. Hart. This was Pope Caelestines opinion, not decree. For z c. Quanto. de ●iuoitijs. Pope Innocentius the third, who speaketh of it, saith not that he defined but that he thought so. Rainoldes. Yet Pope Innocentius saying that he 1 Sensisse. thought so, doth use that word in Latin, which 2 Sententia. sentence cometh from: th●●●e might note thereby the definitive sentence of Celestine, not the opinion. But whatsoever one Pope thought of another: Alfonsus, a famous patron of the Papacy, doth show that he defined it. a Al●ons. a Cast●o adverse haeres. lib. 1. cap. 4. For that Pope Celestine did err (saith Alfonsus') about the marriage of the faithful of whom one falleth into heresy it is manifest to all men. Neither was this error of Caelestin such as aught to be imputed to negligence alone, that we may say he erred as a private man, and not as Pope, who in 3 Definienda. defining of any serious matter should ask counsel of learned men. For this 4 Definitio. definition of Celestine was 5 In antiquis decretalibus. extant in the old decretals, which I myself have seen & read. And this of Alfonsus is confirmed farther by Cardinal b Super quart● decretalium. c. quanto de diuo●tijs. Hostiensis: who noteth the very 6 § Idem ●iquidem. paragraph of 7 De conuersione infid. c. Laudabilem. the chapter in the which it was, & speaketh of it as a decretal. Wherefore though the chapter be maimed of the paragraph * Since the year of Christ. 1260. since Hostiensis time: yet these records suffice to show that it was a decree of Pope Caelestines, set forth to teach the Church. Hart. There are c Gratianus distinct. 19 c. Ita Dominus. § Hoc autem. Adrianus, in 4. sentent. de confirmat. quaest. vlt. Gerson, & Almain, Parisienses Theologi. some of our Doctors (as d Locor. Theolog. lib. 6. cap. 1. Canus declareth) who think that the Pope may err in judgement of faith. Alfonsus and Hostiensis might have that fancy too. But if the decree (whereof they speak) were set forth perhaps to teach the Church: yet not to teach the Church that point. For in a point touched or handled by the way, Popes may err, (as e lib. ●. c. 8. Canus & D. f Princip. doc●. lib. 8. cap. 14. Stapleton show:) but not in the conclusion, that is, the principal point which they intend to teach. Rainoldes. Now you may see how vainly you st●iue for the Pope. For this, which is your last hold when all is done, I overthrew g In the .2. Division of this chapter. at first by the example of Honorius. The conclusion and principal point of whose h Dogmatica scripta Honorij ad Sergium. Sext. Synod. Constantinop. act. 12 decrees set forth to teach the Church, was the Monothelites heresy. Whereby he did not strengthen his brethren in the faith, but i ●mp●a Sergi● dogmata cōfirm●uit. confirmed their wicked errors against the faith, as * Sext. Synod. Constan●inop. act. 13. Inuenimu●. the Council pronounced of him. Hart. Why do all the Fathers than apply this privilege of not failing and of confirming other in faith to the Roman Church, and Peter's successors in the same. Rainoldes. They do not. But your k In their Annotations on Luk. ●2. 31. Rhemists who report that of them, do shamefully misreport them. For l De corrept. & grati● cap. 8. Austin, m Hom. 83. in Matthaeum. & 72. in Johannem. Chrysostom, n De vocat. 〈◊〉. cap. 24. Prosper, and o In Luc. 2●. Theophylact do understand by [faith] a lively Christian faith, and say that Christ prayed that Peter might continue therein unto the end. Which grace neither they nor any Father saith that all the Popes have. Nay p In the 1. Divis. of this Chapt. yourself, q Turrecrem. in 〈◊〉. de eccles. l. 2. c. 112. Canus Loc. Theolog. l. 6. c. 1. Bellarmin. Cōt●o●. 4. p. 2. q. 1. your Doctors, yea r In their Annot. Luk. 22.31. Rhemists do confess the contrary. Hart. Yet * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 15. the rock, no doubt, whereon Christ did promise that he would build his Church and the gates of hell should not prevail against it, is applied by the Fathers to Peter's successors in the church of Rome. S. a In Psalm. contr. partem donat. Austin is a witness thereof against the Donatists, whom he biddeth number the Priests (that is the Popes) even from the seat of Peter, and mark their succession: affirming it to be the rock against which the proud gates of hell prevail not. The eighth Division. And S. b Epist. 57 jerom writing to Damasus the Pope, avoucheth as much: I am joined saith he, in communion to your holiness, that is, to Peter's chair. I know that the Church is builded upon that rock. Rainoldes. The poor ship of Christ hath made almost shipwreck upon this rock of yours. I have c Chapt. 2. Diuis. 1. already proved, that the word petra, which you translate a rock, doth signify in Christ's speech, a stone, not a rock. Howbeit rock, or stone, it maketh no difference to the sayings of the Fathers, which you allege, concerning it. For whether they meant a stone, as it is properly; or a rock, as it may be they did, (at least S. d Who applieth the rock to Christ: De verbis Domin. Serm. 13. Retractat. lib. 1. ●ap. 21. Austin▪) through doubtfulness of the word: they meant not to build the Papacy thereby. Wherefore if you think that the name of stone either hath not so great advantage for your purpose, or doth not yield so fully the meaning of the Fathers: I am content (with out prejudice to that which I have spoken touching the right sense thereof in Christ's speech) to use your rock in steed of it. Hart. So you must do, if you will deal with my argument. For the majesty of the Church of Rome is much advanced by the name of the rock: and in my judgement the Fathers meant no less when they applied the words of Christ to that See. Rainoldes. The Fathers used those words to advance the majesty of the Church of Rome: but neither to advance the church of Rome alone, neither to import the Pope's supremacy by that majesty. And this may be gathered plainly by S. e Epist. 27. ad lapso●. Cyprian, who although he give a f Epist. 55. ad Cornelium. special ti●le of honour & pre-eminence to the Church of Rome: yet doth he apply that of the rock to the Church in general. For he affirmeth that our Lord took order for the office of a Bishop and the state of his Church by saying unto Peter, Thou art Peter, and on this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it: and, to thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt lose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Thence by course of times, and successions, there floweth 1 Episcoporum ordinatio. the ordaining of Bishops and 2 Ecclesiae ratio. the state of the Church: that 3 Ecclesia super episcopos constituatur. upon the Bishops the Church should be set, and every action of the Church should be governed and guided by the same rulers. In the which words S. Cyprian (you see) accounteth all Bishops the rock of the Church. That as by the church built upon the rock, the whole Church is meant, and not the Church of Rome, or of Carthage only: so neither the Bishop of Rome, nor of Carthage, may be represented alone by the rock, and yet as well the Bishop of Carthage as of Rome. Hart. Howsoever it seemed in S. Cyprians judgement to belong to all Bishops, and so after a sort to the Bishop of Carthage, as * Epist. 27. a● lapsos. he applieth it: yet other of the Fathers apply it in special to the Bishop of Rome, & give it particularly to that Church, & See. Rainoldes. They do: but in such sort, that they might have done it to any faithful Church, even to the Church of Carthage, as S. Cyprian did. For that which is verified of a thing in general, is verified in the special. As, for example, the Catholic Church in general is named g Heb. 10: 21. the house of God, and h Cant. 4.12. the spouse of Christ. The Apostle applieth those titles in special, i Heb. 3.6. the one to the Hebrews, k 2. Cor. 11.2. the other to the Corinthians, if they continue faithful. And so what Christ hath said of his whole Church, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it: that is true in every part of his Church. And if he named Peter, a rock, (in respect of the faith that he professed,) on the which he said he would build his Church; then all, on whom (professing the same faith of Christ) his Church in part is builded, may, in a proportion, be called rocks also. Wherefore sith the Fathers did speak of the Church of Rome when it was holy, and of the Roman Bishops, when they professed the faith of Peter: no marvel, if they said the Church was built on that rock, and the gates of hell did not prevail against it. Howbeit I deny not but that in their speeches of the Church of Rome they give more unto it then they could have given to every faithful Church. For whereas of the sundry Churches of Christ some were planted by the Apostles themselves, as l Act. 2.41. jerusalem, m 11.26. Antioch, n 1●. ●. Corinth, o 28.30. Rome; some received the faith from them which the Apostles planted: p Tertullian. de prescript. adue●s. haeret. August. epist. 162. & 164. & de doctrine. Christian. l 2 c. 8. they had the former sort in greater reputation, and called them Apostolic Churches; amongst which they counted the Church of Rome q Cyprian. ep. 55. a chief one, r Irenae. advers. haeres. l. 3. c. 3. as planted by the chief Apostles Peter and Paul. And because it was famous that Peter had preached the Gospel there, (whom as the first Apostle it seemeth that the Romans did more rejoice in, then in Paul:) thence it cometh that in speaking of the Church of Rome, they mention oftentimes the seat and chair of Peter. For they who did teach, were wont to teach fitting: as I showed * In the 4. Divis. of this Chapt. before by s Matt. 26.55. Luc. 4 20. joh. 8.2. the example of Christ, and t Matt. 23.2. his words of the Scribes and Pharises. Whereupon, as the scripture speaketh of S. Paul, that u Act. 18.11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. he sat at Corinth a year & six months, teaching the word of of God amongst them, meaning that he continued there, and preached to them: in like sort x Damasus in Ponti●icali. Hieron. de scriptor. eccles. verbo Petrus. August. contr. litter. Petilian. l. 2. c. 51. the Fathers, ●o signify that Peter abode and taught in Rome, are accustomed to say that he sat at Rome. So doth Austin mention the succession of Bishops from the seat of Peter. So doth jerom honour the Bishop of that See with the n●me of Peter's chair. But what is this to the supremacy? For it is spoken by y Euseb. in Chronic. Damasus in Pontificali. the Fathers also, that Peter did sit and h●d h●s ch●ire at Antioch: yea at Antioch (as z Durand. in Rationali divine. off. l. 7. c. 8. some say) he had in deed * Excelsam ca●hedram. a high chair, wherein he was exalted. And of his chair at Antioch, you have an a Februar. 22. Cathedra S. Petri Antiochiae. Durand. l. 7. c. 8. old holy day; of his chair at Rome, a b januar. 18. Cathedra S. Petri Romae. Onuphr. annotat. in Platin. vit. Petri. new one, trimmed of late. Wherefore if the high chair of Peter at Antioch with an old feast could not make the Bishop of Antioch supreme head: how can the Bishop of Rome be made supreme head by Peter's chair (perhaps a lower chair) at Rome, with a new feast? If the new feast be that which maketh up the matter: the Pope was no fool in making that feast. He may do well to make m●e. Hart. You make yourself sport with our feasts of S. Peter's chair: as though I had said, that because the Fathers do name the See of Rome the seat and chair of Peter, therefore the Bishop of Rome must have the supremacy. Whereas I alleged them to show that the Bishops and the succession of Bishops in that See is the rock, on which S. Ièrom saith he knoweth the Church to be built; against which S. Austin saith, that the proud gates of hell prevail not. Rainoldes. But * Staple● 〈◊〉 doctr●. 6 c. ●5. you do conclude the Pope's supremacy hereof: or else you stray from the question. Hart. Why may I not conclude it? Rainoldes. If you list: but the feast of S. Peter's chair would prove it more gallantly. For if the testimonies, which you allege, of jerom and Austin, be examined: they say nothing for it. S. jerom abiding (in his young years) among the Arian heretics in the coasts of Syria, was required by their Bishop to allow and approve a profession of faith touching the Trinity, wherein he suspected there lay some privy poison hidden. Wherefore least he should yield thereunto rashly, he sought to be directed by the advise and counsel of Damasus Bishop of Rome: as whom both he acknowledged to be his own Bishop, and knew to be a Bishop that held the catholic faith; which praise by that title of the rock he giveth him. In Africa, they were troubled with other heretics named Donatists: a sect which despised the communion of saints, and rend themselves a sunder from the assemblies of Christians, because there were some evil men amongst them (as they said) whose fellowship defiled them. S. Austin wrote a Psalm for the catholics against these: wherein, having proved first out of the scriptures, that we must not leave the communion of the Church for that there are some evil men in it, sith Christ hath declared that there should be so, as tars with corn, in the field; as chaff with wheat in the floor; as bad with good, in the net; he confirmeth this doctrine by the consent & judgement of the Church of Rome, whose Bishops even from Peter had embraced it still, and constantly maintained it, the gates of hell in vain assaulting them. So the words of Austin and jerom do import a sincerity of faith in the Church of Rome & the Roman Bishops against the Arians and Donatists: but neither of their words import the supremacy, which is a sovereignty of power. Hart. If they had not meant as well a sovereignty of power as sincerity of faith: why should they mention that Church and not others? Were there no Bishops sincere through all the world, but the Bishops of Rome only? Rainoldes. Yes a great many, and they mention them too. For jerom, though he asketh the advise of Damasus, a young man of an old, * Epist. 57 a me homine Romano. a Roman of the Bishop of Rome, whose c Theodoret. hist. eccles. l. 2. ●. 22. & l. 5. c. 10. Symbolum Damasi apud Hier. Tom. 9 religion was sound, whose d Th●odoret. lib. 5. cap. 2. & 3. authority was great, and the greater with jerom because he knew him well, as e Hier. epist. 57 & 58. Damaso. having learned himself the faith of Christ in Rome, where he was baptised: yet doth he name S. Ambrose (the Bishop then of Milan) as sound in faith also, and the Bishops of Egypt, yea of * Theodoret. hist. eccles. l. 5. c. 6. the west in general. f Hier. epist. 57 Now in the west (saith he) the sun of righteousness ariseth, and the inheritance of the Fathers is kept uncorrupted amongst you alone. In like sort doth g In Psalmo contr. part. Donati. Austin note, against the Donatists, (whose canker had fretted but a piece of Africa,) that Bishops of the coasts and countries beyond sea, and Churches through the whole world, were pure from their heresy. Howbeit, as jerom preferred the advise of Damasus before others to confirm himself: so did Austin choose the Church of Rome above the rest to confirm his brethren. For h August. retractat. l. 1. c. 20. he penned his Psalm (wherein this is written) of purpose to the capacity of the very meanest & simplest of the people: that they might understand and remember the state of the controversy with the Donatists. Wherefore he commendeth the truth by the authority of the Church of Rome: i Tertull. de prescript. adverse. hae●et. which, of all the Churches that the Apostles planted, was both nearest to them, and best esteemed of amongst them. But how far S. Austin was from your fancy of the Pope's supremacy, when he alleged the Church of Rome to this intent: let that be a token, that, writing for the learned who were of greater reach, he allegeth the Churches k August. con●●. litter. Petil. l. 2. c. 51. of jerusalem, l Epist. 164. ad Emeritum. De unitate Ecc●esiae c. 11. & 12. of Corinth, of Antioch, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, of Asia, Bythinia, Galatia, Cappadocia, in a word, m Contr. Cres●on. gramm. l. 3. c 18. & epist. 161. ad Honoratum. of all the rest as well as of Rome. And this may be semblably noted in S. jerom. n Epist. 77 ad Mar●um presb●●. Who, when the Arians charged him with heresy, did justify his faith by his communion with the Churches of the west and of Egypt, of Damasus Bishop of Rome, and Peter Bishop of Alexandria. According to o ●ozom. histor ●●●le● l. ●. c. 4. 〈…〉. the law of the Emperor Theodosius: wherein it is decreed that all they should be named and esteemed Catholics, who believed of the Trinity as Damasus and Peter did; the rest to be accounted and punished as heretics. A great praise (I grant) of the faith of Damasus, that so good an Emperor did set him for a sampler whom Christians should follow: but a praise common 〈◊〉 him with Peter Bishop of Alexandria; and p Sozom. l. 7. 〈…〉. common to them both with sundry Bishops of the East, Nectarius, Pelagius, Diodorus, Amphilochius, Helladius, Otrein●s, Gregory Ny●●en, and more. Of whom the same Emperor did 〈◊〉 make an other law, that none should have the charge of ●ishoprickes committed to them but such as we●● of their faith. Whereby you may perceive that the praise given to Damasus by jerom, proveth a sound faith common to the Bishop of Rome with many other; not a sovereign power, peculiar to him alone above all. Hart. Then you grant, at least, that the Bishop of Rome cannot err in faith by S. jeroms judgement. Rainoldes. Or, at least, you take it, though neither I do grant it, nor is it proved by S. jerom. But this is proved, and I grant it, that he did not err in the faith of the Trinity, when Damasus was Bishop of Rome. Hart. When Damasus was Bishop? Why do you so restrain it? S. jeroms words be general. I am joined in communion unto your holiness, that is to Peter's chair. I know that the Church is builded upon that rock. Behold, to Peter's chair. He speaketh not to Damasus as in respect of Damasus, but in respect of the chair, and so of the succession of the Bishops of Rome: that, what he saith to one, belongeth to them all. Rainoldes. If you set his words upon such tenters, they will never hold. For, q De scripto●i●bus ecclesiast. verbo Fortunatianus. himself reporteth that the next Bishop of Rome before Damasus, Liberius by name, subscribed to the Arian heresy. Hart. S. jerom reporteth so: but he might be deceived by some misreport. For he could say nothing more of that matter, than what he had by hearsay. Rainoldes. But seeing that he lived so near to that time, and in the same place, and loved the See of Rome, and yet doth report this matter of Liberius, and report it constantly, not only in his book of Ecclesiastical writers, but in r In adiect. ad Chronic. Euseb▪ his Chronicle also: it is more likely, that he did both know and testify the truth, than s Chron. lib. ● Pontacus (who maketh your exception against him) or any man that liveth now. Hart. Why? will not you credit a man that liveth now in any thing against S. jerom? Rainoldes. Yes: if he bring me good reason to disprove him. Hart. And Pontacus doth so. For he showeth that Epist. 74. Basil, u De virgin. l. 3. Ambrose, and x Haeres. 75. Epiphanius, do call Liberius a blessed man: and that y In apolog. 2. Athanasius doth free him from the spot of Arianisme. Rainoldes. Basil, Ambrose, and Epiphanius, do call Liberius a blessed man. What? Therefore he subscribed not to the Arian heresy? Then you may say that Peter did not deny Christ. For, t Serm. de humil●t. Basil, u De fide lib. 5. in praefat. Ambrose, and x In anchorat. Epiphanius do call Peter a blessed man. They are blessed, who repent themselves of their sins, as Peter did of his denial: and so might z Socrat. hist. eccles. l. 4 c. 11. Sozom. l. 6. c. 12. Liberius do of his subscription. As for y In apolog. 2. Athanasius, though he say that Liberius condemned the heresy of the Arians, and therefore suffered banishment: yet he saith withal, that he continued not in suffering banishment to the end, but a Athanas. in epist. ad solit. vit. agent. through fear of death subscribed to that heresy with his hand, though with his heart he were still against it. Thus even Athanasius, who lived at the same time with Liberius, and knew his state well, acknowledgeth that he subscribed: though judging most friendly (both for his own sake, and the causes,) that he consented not. But, b In Pontificali. Damasus Bishop of Rome, who succeeded Liberius, and might know the matter better than Athanasius, doth write that Liberius did consent also to Constantius the Arian. Hart. Although this be written in the book of Damasus: yet it is not likely that Damasus wrote it. For, c Summ. Concilior. in vit. Libe●●j. Carranza noteth, that there are many who doubt of that story. And d Annot. in Plat. vit. Felicis secund. Onuphrius, a man very skilful of antiquities, chief of the Roman, discrediteth both the report and the author of it▪ saying, that Anastasius the keeper of the Pope's library, was (as he thinketh) the first who believed it, and thrust it into the book of Damasus, as many other things beside. Rainoldes. What Anastasius did, I know not. But if he stuffed Damasus with any thing of his own: it was belike in such things rather, as advance, then impeach the Pope's credit. Howbeit, if Onuphrius in that he denieth Liberius was an Arian, do mean that he subscribed not to the Arian heresy, and that this report came first from Anastasius: what answereth he then to jerom, and Athanasius, and e Hist. eccles●●ast. lib. 4. cap. ●●. Sozomen, (and f In 〈◊〉. Marcellinus in effect too,) who wrote it all with one consent, the youngest of them a hundred years before Anastasius was borne. As for Carranzas note, that there are many who doubt of that story: he must show who they be, and what grounds of doubt they have. Or else, those many may be such as himself and Onuphrius: whose doubting may not prejudice the credit of historians that wrote a thousand years before them. Chief, if they have no surer grounds than Carranza: who, to disprove the story, allegeth that Liberius wrote one epistle to Athana●ius and the Bishops of Egypt against the Arians; and another to all Bishops, exhorting them to constancy. Which reasons are so poor, that your own g Sanction▪ ●●●clesiast. class▪ 3. in vita Liberij. joverius, a Paris Doctor of Divinity, rehearsing them by occasion, hath withal refuted them. But see to what miserable shifts you are driven to uphold the pride of the man of Rome. Because it were a stain unto his supremacy, if his predecessor Liberius subscribed against the Catholic faith: therefore you rather choose to deny it; and how? First the authority of jerom is alleged affirming it in his Chronicle. Your h Hierar. ecclesiast. lib. 4. c. ●. Pighius doth answer that some hath interlaced those words into his Chronicle, through ignorance or fraud. When this answer seemed hard, because jerom hath other where affirmed it also: your Pontacus (to help it) replieth that Ierom could say nought thereof, but what he had by hearsay. When proof of this hearsay is made out of Damasus: your Onuphrius supposeth him to be corrupted by Anastasius the keeper of the Pope's library. When Sozomen, a Greek writer, confirmeth Damasus, and jerom: Your Christophorson, who translateth him, doth make him hold his peace, or rather witness to the contrary. For where he saith in his own tongue, that the Emperor 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. compelled Liberius to subscribe: he saith, by your translator, the Emperor 2 Tentavit cōpelle●e. assayed to compel him. And where he saith 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in his own tongue, that certain Arian Bishops 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, procured him to consent: he saith, by your translator, 4 Conantur ut consentiat. they endeavoured that he should consent. When farther Marcellinus is found to agree with Sozomens report: your i Chronogr. l. 3. Genebrard seeing jerom approved by them both, doth raze out that of Ponta●us (that jerom could say nought thereof but by hearsay) and doth assault him with the Fathers. Wherein, (besides them, whom you alleged out of Pontacus,) he citeth Socrates and Theodoret: k Histor. ecclesiast. lib. 4. c. 11. Socrates, declaring that Liberius was no Arian in the time of Valens the Emperor; as though this were a proof that he subscribed not to the Arian heresy in the time of Constantius: l Histor. ecclesiast lib. 5. cap. 6. Theodoret, avouching that the west was always free form Arianisme; which is less to the purpose, Theodoret speaking generally as for the most part, and in respect of the East by way of comparison. For himself had showed m Lib. 4. c. 5. before that Auxentius, a western Bishop, was an Arian. Now for Athanasius, who is the most ancient witness of this matter, and of such valour that your n Defence. ●id. Trident. lib. 2. Andradius could not but yield himself unto him: yet Genebrard & Pontacus thought it good policy to name him as gainsaying jerom therein; where jerom saith the same that he doth, so plainly & fully that your o Contr. Brent. lib. 2. Hosius is feign to shape one answer to them both, that they believed a false rumour. Wherewith your p Praelect. Rom. Sontrou. 4. p. 2. q. 1. Bellarmin doth cast them off too. And this shift of laying the blame on false rumours seemed so handsome to your q Annot. in vitam Liber. Concil. Tom. 1. Surius, that he (belike misliking Onuphrius shift of Anastasius,) applieth it to Damasus also. For colouring whereof, he saith, that very ancient historians and writers bear witness of Liberius most constant perseverance in defence of the Catholic faith. But being not able to name as much as one of these very ancient historians and writers, of whom he boasteth with shameless lie: he sendeth his reader (a thing most ridiculous) to * Nicephor. Callist. hist. ecclesiast. l. 9 c. 37. Nicephorus a late writer, who (saith he) doubtless did draw his writings out of the ancient. In deed that which Nicephorus hath of this point, he drew it out of Sozomen: and, if the Greek were extant, the truth were easily tried, but either he did change his autour in 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. three words, which is not likely, sith he followed him through all the chapter foot by foot; 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. or (which is most likely) your Langus, who 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. translated him out ofa written copy, was as bold with him, as Christopherson with Sozomen. 1 Suadere ten●auit. Such follies and treacheries you wrap yourselves in, 2 Studuere. to keep men from opinion, that a Pope subscribed to the Arian heresy. 3 Conabantur. Which, had you not hardened your faces as flint to soothe the presumption of the Papal See, I see no cause why you should do: chiefly sith yourselves do teach (as In the 2. Divis. of this chapter. I have showed) that the Pope may be an heretic, and not subscribe to heresy only. But if you be affected so tenderly to the Pope, that you will rather grant any fault in others than such a spot in him; if you can say with out blushing, that Damasus was corrupted, Athanasius light of credit, Marcellinus a false Chronicler; that Sozomen is truer in Latin, then in Greek; in your translation, than his own tongue; that r ●h●on lib. ●. Marianus Scotus, s In supputat. R●man. 〈◊〉 Martinus Polonus, t 〈…〉 in Chron 〈…〉 Ado, u Ch●on. lib. 1. Rhegino, x . Antoninus, y 〈…〉 Iebe●● second. Platina, & z 〈◊〉. de 〈◊〉▪ cath● l. ●. c 5. Al●on● other later writers were deceived by jerom; that jerom was abused himself by false rumours; to be short, that the Papists who live in our days can tell what was done twelve hundred years ago, better than themselves who lived at that time, andsince from age to age: yet you cannot say but that jerom thought that Liberius subscribed to the Arian heresy; yea, a Ca●h. contr. ha r. l. ●. c. 4. Albert. K●●ntz. Metrop. l. 2. cap. 1. that Felix (the next Bishop of Rome after Liberius) was an Arian; he thought it. Wherefore, if he had meant of the whole succession of the Roman Bishops that which he wrote to Damasus, I am joined in communion unto your holiness, that is, to Peter's chair; I know that the Church is builded upon that rock: then he must have meant, that▪ before the time that Damasus was Bishop, he ought to have been joined in communion to the Arians, and that the Arians holiness was the chair of Peter, and that the Church was built upon the rock of Arians. But this abomination was far from S. jerom. S. jerom therefore meant not the succession, but Damasus, who succeeded Peter, as in chair, so in doctrine; and taught the faith which Peter did: a faith as clean contrary to the Arians faith, as light is to darkness, as life is to death. Hart. But questionless S. b In Psalm. c●●tra pa●●. Donat. Austin meant the whole succession of the Bishops of Rome, when he wrote against the Donatists, Number ye the Priests even from the very seat of Peter, & in that rank of Father's mark who succeeded whom: that is the rock against which the proud gates of hell prevail not. The gates of hell (saith Austin) prevail not against the Priests, that is, the Bishops, who succeed Peter. Then by his judgement all the Roman Bishops are free from all heresy. For the gates of hell are heresies, and the principal authors of heresies, as c In Anchora● Epiphanius witnesseth. Wherefore ifthe gates of hell prevail not against the succession of the Bishops of Rome: it followeth (howsoever you avoid S. jerom) that neither Arians, nor Donatists, nor any other heresies do prevail against it. Rainoldes. Did prevail against it in the time of Austin: so you should conclude. You have a pretty policy in citing the testimonies and sayings of the Father's touching the Church of Rome: that what they did speak of the time present then, you use it as spoken of the time present now. There was a gentlewoman in Rome, named Fabia: d Fab. Quintilia●. lib. 6. cap. 4. who being waxed old, yet willing still to seem young, said, in Tully's hearing, that she was thirty years of age. That must needs be true, quoth Tully; for I have heard it of you twenty years ago. The Church of Rome hath defiled herself with idolatry, & gone a whoring from the Lord: yet she would seem a maid still, and so she saith herself to be. I think you jest not with her, as Tully did with Fabia: yet you prove her maidenhead, as Tully did the youth of Fabia. You say that it must needs be true: for it is written ofher twelve hundred years ago. But that you may see how small cause you have to build so much on those words, The gates of hell prevail not against the succession of the Bishops of Rome: consider what is meant by the gates of hell, and your grant is past, that against some Bishops of Rome they have prevailed. The state of the faithful and chosen of God in this present life, is as it were e 2. Cor. 10.4. a warfare: whereof the Church is called militant. The adversaries and enemies whom we must fight against, our Saviour speaketh of them as of a strong kingdom, which he calleth hell, because it warreth all for hell, and f Ephes. 6.11. the devil is prince of it. The gates of hell therefore do signify the g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. holds, the fortresses and munitions, wherewith the powers of hell do fight against us and assault us: that is, even whatsoever the devil can do by force or fraud. All the which is meant by the name of gates, because the gates of forts are wont to have the best munition, and to be fenced most strongly. So the gates of hell are not only heresies, (though heresies are of them, as h In Anchorat. Epiphanius, and i De symbol. ad Catechum. lib. 1. cap. 6. Austin note:) but also persecutions, and specially sins, and in a word all evils, sweet or sour, fair or foul, that seek to subdue us to everlasting death; as k In Matthaeum Tract. 1. Origen, l Contra Gen●iles, quód Christus sit Deus. Chrysostom, m In quint. Psalmum penitent. Gregory, n In Matth. ●6. Theophylact, and o H●eron. & Raban. comment. in Mat. 16. others well observe. Now, ifyou apply this to the Bishops of Rome: you may see your error. For it is confessed by yourself and yours, that sins have prevailed, and prevailed monstrously against sundry of them. Whereof it doth follow that against sundry of them who have succeeded in the seat of Peter, the gates of hell have prevailed. As for S. Augustine's judgement, that heresies of the Arians, or Donatists, or others did not prevail against them: I know no cause to the contrary but he might justly say so then. For though the Arian heresy did set upon Liberius fiercely and overthrew him, p Hieron. i● Chronic. Bus●b. when he being wearied with the tediousness of his banishment did subscribe to it: yet sith he recovered himself from his fall, and manfully q Socrat. hist. eccles. lib. 4. c. 11. Sozomen. lib. 6. cap. 12. withstood it afterward, it cannot be said to have prevailed against him. Whether it prevailed or no against Felix, of whom r Hieron. de script. ec●les. verbo Acaciu●. Socrat. l. 2. c. 29 some report that he was an Arian; s Theodoret. histor. eccles. l. 2. cap. 17. Sozom. l. 4. c. 10. some, that he communicated only with the Arians: it is no matter to S. t Epist. 165. Austin, who reckoneth him not amongst the Roman Bishops. Wherein though your Genebrard do dissent from him, because Felix died a martyr, as u Genebrard. Chronogr. l. 3. he saith, & citeth Sozomen to prove it (but he belieth Sozomen) to infer on that lie, that Peter's chair hath such a virtue, that it could rather bear a martyr then an heretic, or a Pope that favoured heretics: yet x Optat. Milevit. contr. Donatist. lib. 2. Marcellin. Comes in Chronic. others (not seeing belike such a mystery in the death of Felix) are of S. Augustine's mind; even your y Annot. in Plat. vit. Feli. secund. Onuph●ius also, who neither doth acknowledge his Popedom, nor his martyrdom. Now, the heresy of the Donatists had less prevailed against them. For as z Euseb. hist. ecclesiast. lib. 6. cap. 42. Cyprian▪ epist. ad Co●nelium, & Lucium▪ they had before withstood the novatians, the cousin germans to the Donatists: so a August. in brevi. collat. cum Donatist. collat. diei tert. cap. ●2. & epist. 162. did they withstand the Donatists themselves, both by their communion with the Catholics, and by their doctrine. And this is the point on the which S. Austin did cast his eye chief, when he commended their succession. As it appeareth farther by b Epist. 165. a reply that he made to a Donatists epistle: where having reckoned up all the Roman Bishops from Linus who succeeded Peter, to Anastasius living then, he concludeth with these words: * In hoc ording▪ successionis nullus Donatista episcopus invenitur. in the rank of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist. Wherewithal ifwe consider how they maintained the truth c Irenae. advers. haeres. l. 3. c. 3. against the heresies of Carpocrates, Valentinus, Martion, d Theodoret. hist. eccles. l. 50. c. 1●. Sabellius, Macedonius, Photinus, Apollinaris, and the rest of those miscreants, who undermined the foundation of the Christian faith, the doctrine of the blessed Trinity: the reason will be manifest, why to move the Donatists by the succession of the Bishops of Rome and their authority, S. Austin gave it this praise, that the gates of hell did not prevail against it. Hart. The ninth Division. Well. * S●aplet. lib. 4. cap. 5. & 19 & 20. The succession then of the Roman Bishops is used by S. Austin for a certain mark of the Catholic religion, of the true Church, and of the right faith. Neither only by S. Austin, but by the rest of the Fathers too. For e Haeres. 27. Epiphanius allegeth it against the Carpocratians: & let no man marvel (saith he) that we rehearse all things so exactly; for, that which is manifest in faith is thereby showed. And f De praescriptionib. advers. haeret. Tertullian having said of themselves in Africa that they have authority from the Church of Rome, doth teach that the succession of that Church and See is to be set against all heretics. And g Lib. 3. cap. 3. Irenaeus reckoning up all the Roman. Bishops in order from Peter to Eleutherius of his time, doth add, that it is a most ample declaration of the Apostolic faith to be of his side against the Valentinians. And h Libr. 2. Optatus reckoneth farther from Peter to Siricius of his time against the Donatists. As likewise S. i Epist. 165. Austin farther yet from Peter to Anastasius of his time, & that (he saith) much more surely and to the soul's health in deed. Wherefore the Church of Rome, and we, who are of that Church, have an assured warrant that the faith which we profess is the true faith. For we have the succession of the Roman Bishops from Peter to Gregory the thirteenth of our time: which is an invincible fort against all heretics; as the Fathers, Epiphanius, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Optatus, and Austin testify. Rainoldes. You will never leave to daily with the Church of Rome, as Tully did with Mistress Fabia. The succession of the Roman Bishops is a proof of the true faith: for so it was in the time of Austin, Epiphanius, Optatus, Tertullian, & Irenaeus, twelve hundred years ago & upward. Succession was a proof of the true faith, till Bishops, who varied from the truth succeeded: even as * Matt. 7.15. sheeps clothing was a mark of true Prophets till false Prophets came in it. But neither are true Prophets known now by sheeps clothing: nor the true faith by succession. The succession of Bishops was a proof of true faith not in the Church of Rome alone, but in all, while they who succeeded the Apostles in place, succeeded them in doctrine too, & kept that which k 2. Tim. 1.14. Paul delivered to Timothee & l 2. Tim. 2.2. Timothee to others. But when ravening wolves were gotten into the rooms of pastors, and m Act. 20.30. that was fulfilled which Paul foretold the Bishops of Ephesus, of your own selves there shall arise men speaking perverse things to draw disciples after them: then succession ceased to be a proof of true faith, for that it was no longer peculiar to the truth, but common to it with error, and so a mark of neither, because a mark of both. This difference of succession between the later age and the former, the primitive church's time and ours, is manifest by the Fathers themselves whom you allege. For n Lib. 3. cap. 3. & lib. 4. c. 63. Irenaeus (to begin with the most ancient of them) saith, that the succession of Bishops in all Churches through the whole world doth keep and teach that doctrine which the Apostles delivered. Now it doth not so: nor hath these many ages since Irenaeus died. Hath it? Hart. Not in all Churches. But in the Church of Rome it doth, and hath, and shall for ever. Rainoldes. But if you would say as much for all Churches, you might prove it as wisely out of Irenaens, as you do for the Church of Rome. Hart. I deny that. For he doth not fetch the succession of true doctrine but from the Church of Rome against the Valentinians. Rainoldes. D. o Princip. doctrine. lib. 4. c. 19 Stapleton told you so, and you believed it. I know not whether I should more pity your credulity, or detest his impudency, who hath abused you with such lewd untruths; and that against his own knowledge, unless he knew not what he had written himself. For p Princip. doctrine. lib. 4. cap. 5. himself had cited the words of Irenaeus which avouch the contrary: to weet, we can reckon them who were ordained Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches, & their successors until our time, q Irenae. lib. 3. cap. 3. who taught not any such thing, and so forth. But for as much as it would be very long to reckon the successions of all Churches: we declare the faith of the greatest, the most ancient and famous Church of Rome. Which faith hath continued until our time by the successions of Bishops. And again: r ●ib. 4. ca●. 63. the true knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient state of the Church in the whole world, and the form of Christ's body according to the successions of Bishops unto whom they did commit the Church, which is in every place, which hath continued until our time, being kept, and so forth. By the which sentences it is plain that Irenaeus, although he reckon not the successions of all Churches because it would be tedious: yet he fetcheth the succession of true doctrine from all Churches, in every place, through the whole world. Or if it be not plain enough by these sentences, he maketh it more plain in other: both by general speeches of Lib. 1. cap. 2. & 3. l. 3. c. 12. l. 5. ●. 1. & 17. the Church through al● the world, which he repeateth often; and by the particular names of sundry Churches, t Lib. 3. c. 3. the Churches of Smyrna, of Ephesus, of Asia, u Lib. 1. cap. 3. the Churches in Germany, in Spain, in France, in the East countries, in Egypt, in Liby●, in the middle of the world. Wherefore the successions of Bishops in all Churches were true and faithful witnesses of the Apostolic doctrine in the time of Irenaeus. As x Histor. ecclesiast. lib. 4. c. 21. Eusebius also doth farther prove by Hegesippus, who lived at the same time, and travailing to Rome ward, did talk with very many Bishops: of whom, even of them all, he heard the same doctrine, accordingly to that he wrote, that in every succession, and in every city, the doctrine is such as the Law, and the Prophets, and the Lord doth preach. Hart. Yet y Lib. 3. cap. 3. Irenaeus reckoneth chiefly the succession of the Church of Rome, as of the greatest Church, and the most ancient and known unto all, founded and established by two the most excellent Apostles Peter and Paul. Rainoldes. No marvel. For beside the credit that it had as being Apostolic, ample, famous, ancient: it was the nearest also in place (amongst all the Apostolic Churches) to Irenaeus Bishop of Lions in France; and so both known better and the more dealt with. In the which respect, other of the Fathers did chiefly name it too. As may appear by z De praescriptionib. advers. haeret. Tertullian the next of them whom you allege. For he setting down the same prescription against heretics, which Irenaeus had before him, doth speak of it thus. Run over the Apostolic Churches, at which the very chairs of the Apostles are sat on yet in their places: at which their authentical letters are recited, sounding out the voice and representing the face of every one of them. Is Achaia next unto thee? Thou hast Corinth. If thou be not far from Macedonia, thou hast Philippi, thou hast the Thessalonians. If thou canst go into Asia, thou hast Ephesus. If thou lie near to Italu, thou hast Rome: whence we have authority also. Whence we have authority, saith Tertullian, in Africa: for he was of the Church of Carthage. So a Optat. episcopus Milevitanus. Optatus was Bishop of Milevis in Africa. So b August episcopus Hipponensis. Austin was Bishop of Hippon, in Africa. Which if you consider, you may see somewhat in it why Optatus and Austin should reckon the succes●i●on of the Roman Church, rather than of others. Specially sith Austin c De unitat. eccles. cap. 11. & 12. doth urge against the Donatists not only that, but all Churches: and d Contr. litter. Petilian. lib. 2. cap. 51. with the chair of the Church of Rome wherein Peter sat, and Anastasius sitteth now, he matcheth the chair of the Church of jerusalem, wherein james sat, and john sitteth now. As for Epiphanius, whom of the East Church you join to them of the West, as proving the soundness of faith in like sort by the Roman succession: you do him injury. For neither doth he mention it but to note the time in which an heresy did bud; and this is that 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Epiphan. haer· 27. manifest that is meant by him; (it is your Stapletons' art to make it 2 Manifestum in ●ide. Stapl●●ton lib. 4. cap. 5. manifest in faith:) and what he saith thereof, he borroweth it of e Lib. 1. cap. 24. & l. 3. c. 3. & 4. Irenaeus, and therefore reckoneth few of the Bishops of Rome, whereas f Epiph. haer. 66. he reckoneth all the Bishops of jerusalem to like intent against the Manichees; so that jerusalem (if we would toy as you do) passeth Rome with him. But in a word to cut off your cavil of succession of Bishops in the Roman Church, whereby you would prove your faith to be sound, because the Fathers proved the faith in their time so: g Irenaeus▪ the eldest of the Fathers, whom you allege, proved it by the succession of all Churches; h Tertullian▪ the next, by the succession of all Apostolic Churches; i Augustin. the youngest, by them all in effect, by some namely. Wherefore if the succession of the Church of Rome do prove that the Romans have hitherto continued in the true faith, because by that succession the Fathers proved the true faith: then also the succession of the East Churches, of Ephesus, Smyrna, Corinth, Philippi, and Thessalonica▪ do prove that they have hitherto continued in the true faith, because by their succession the Fathers proved the true faith. But k Alfons. a Castr. advers. haer. lib. 5. de. Deo, lib. 6▪ the Eucharistia. lib. 12. de Papa & purgatorio. Canus Locor. Theologic l. 4. c. 6. Saunder. visib. monar. lib. 7. Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 3. & 4. yourselves do write that the Greeks (of whom these East Churches are) have failed in the faith, and yielded unto sundry heresies. The speeches therefore of the Father's touching the succession of the Bishops of Rome, prove not, that the Romans do now profess the true faith. Hart. The line of succession of the Roman Bishops hath been still recorded in stories, and continueth yet. We can reckon them from Peter the Apostle to Gregory who sitteth now. Not so the Greek Bishops, the Churches of the East. Nay, the line of succession hath been broken off in the chief of them, as the Chronicles do witness, even in Alexandria, Antioch, and jerusalem. Rainoldes. What is this to the purpose; if some of their successions be not enroled in stories: some that are enroled were broken off a while by calamities that fell upon them? For although l I● Chronico. Eusebius recorded the successions but of four Churches, in Metropoles provinciarum. the mother-cities of the provinces (as he calleth them,) Rome Alexandria, Antioch, and jerusalem; and m Niceph. epis●. Constantinop. chronolog. tripartit. Nicephorus added Constantinople to them: yet the Churches which I named had successions of Bishops too, as I showed out of n Iren. l. 3. c. 3. Te●●▪ de praeser. Euseb. l. 4. c. 21. the Fathers. And in them, in which you note that succession hath discontinued, the faith had failed often, while the succession lasted: which is enough for my proof. But if you think your Church sure by this prerogative, that the Roman Bishops succession lasteth still, and you can reckon them from Peter the Apostle to Gregory who sitteth now: what say you to the Church of Constantinople? In it there have succeeded Bishops to this day: and they can reckon them o Nicephor. Chronolog. tripartit. from Andrew the Apostle p Genebrard. Chronogr. l. 4. to jeremy who sitteth now. Yet, to say nothing of the old heresies from which the successors are free, though set abroach by their predecessors, as by q Socrat. hist. eccles. lib. 2. cap. ●5. Macedonius, r Lib. 7. cap. 33. Nestorius, and s Histor. Miscell. Pauli Diac. lib. 18. Sergius: t Leo nonus epist. ad Michael. cap. 9 Sigebert. in Chron. the whole line of them many ages together have denied the Roman Bishops supreme-headship, & claimed it to themselves, u In Censura ecclesiae orientalis, cap. 13. as jeremy doth also now. Whereby either your reason of succession is stricken dead, or your supremacy of the Pope. For if succession be a proof of truth and soundness in faith: then your supremacy is condemned. If your supremacy be lawful: then is not faith proved to be sound by succession. To which of these yield you? To one you must of necessity. Hart. In deed * Staplet. princip. doctrine. lib. 4. cap. 9 the succession of Bishops in place is no good argument, unless it be joined with succession in doctrine. For Irenaeus saith, x Irenae lib. 4. cap. 43. & 44. we must obey those priests who with the succession of the Bishoply charge have received the sure gift of the truth according to the will of God. Wherefore the succession of Constantinople, though they fetch it from the Apostles, yet proveth not the faith (which they profess) to be true, because they have departed from the Apostles doctrine, in which they should succeed chiefly. Rainoldes. Now you say well. In deed the succession in place is nothing worth: succession in doctrine is it which maketh all. But what mean you then to send us such y Bristol in his Demands. ●ishtons table commended by Bristol. Gen●brard in his Chronicles. bead-reales of your Bishops of Rome from Peter to Gregory, as undoubted arguments of the Catholic faith: when we can send you as solemn a bead-roale of Constantinople from Andrew to jeremy, and prove nothing by it? What trifling is this, to say first that succession of Bishops in place proveth truth of doctrine: and then to add, that it doth so, if it have succession in doctrine joined with it. In effect as if you said, that succession in place doth prove the doctrine to be true, if the doctrine be true: & a couple of ears do prove a creature to be a man, if they be a man's ears. The Fathers alleged succession in place, not with condition, if it had; but with a reason, that it had succession in doctrine. Prove me that you have succession in doctrine: and then allege unto me the Fathers for succession. For if as S. z Epist. 165. Austin said against the Donatists after he had reckoned the Bishops of Rome from Peter to Anastasius, In the rank of this succession, there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist; so you reckoning them from Peter to Gregory might say in like sort, In the rank of this succession there is not one Bishop found that hath usurped: then were your reason as fit against us for the supremacy of the Pope, as S. Augustine's was for the Church against the Donatists. Hart. I may say so in like sort. For S. Austin meant as well of this point as of all others, when he said of the succession of the Bishops of Rome, that the gates of hell prevailed not against it. Rainoldes. If this gate of hell prevailed not against them in S. Augustine's time: yet many things may happen between the cup and the lip, (as the proverb is,) much more between his time and ou●s. But S. Austin meant not to speak of usurping in that against the Donatists: and if he had, he learned by experience afterward, that they could usurp, and would, if they were not kerbed. For three of them, even Zosimus, Boniface, and Caelestin did usurp over the Churches of Africa while Austin was alive yet: who with the whole Council of above two hundred Bishops of that country, withstood their attempt as much as lay in him, and stayed their pride. Hart. Their pride? You slander those holy Bishops in saying so. Rainoldes. Which holy Bishops? of Africa? Themselves Epist. Concil. African. ad Bonifacium & Caelestinum. in their epistles to the Bishops of Rome, do note it with the same * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. In Latin some princes have it typum, but it should be typhum. word: and if they slandered them it was with a matter of truth. But of this, b Chapt. 9 Diuis. 3. hereafter, more conveniently. For the point in hand, it is sufficient that S. Austin applying that text to the Church of Rome, that the gates of hell prevailed not against it: spoke of soundness of doctrine, which the Donatists did fault in; not of sovereignty of power, whereof there was no question with them. Hart. * Staplet. princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 15. Gregory the great speaketh of sovereignty of power; and proveth by that same text c Gregor. in Psal. 5. penitent. super ver●umillum, Tota die. the Church of Rome to be the head of all Churches, because Christ committed specially this Church to S. Peter, saying, to thee will I give my Church. Rainoldes. By that same. How? Christ saith not to Peter, to thee will I give my Church. He saith, upon this rock will I build my Church. And therein (if Gregory's judgement may rule you,) d In eund. psal. super versum illum▪ Initio tu Domine. the rock is Christ himself, which Peter had his name of, and on which he said he would build his Church: the Church is the holy Church, e In Canticum Canticor. cap. 4. & passim. (that is to say, the company of Gods elect and chosen) which shall never fall away from the Catholic faith in this world, and in the world to come shall continue steadfast for ever with God. For the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. There was some affection that troubled Gregory's mind when he did change that text, and (as it were) appropriate it to his See of Rome: and Stapletons' heart was taken with some affection also, when he cited Gregory to prove his purpose thence. For neither doth the title of the head of all Churches prove the Roman Papacy: neither doth Gregory, although he give that title to the Church of Rome, yet prove it by that same text. The thing which he proveth, is, f In psalm. 5. paenit. supra versum illum Tota die. that the Emperor, who received money for ecclesiastical livings and spoiled the Church with s●monie, ought not so to do, chief in the Church of Rome. For having touched his greediness of this filthy gain, yea he hath (saith Gregory) stretched out so far the rashness of his fury, that he challengeth to himself the head of all Churches, even the Church of Rome, and usurpeth the right of earthly power over the lady of nations. Which he did altogether forbid to be done, who specially committed this Church to S. Peter the Apostle, saying, To thee will I give my Church. Wherein, that which Gregory would say, is plain enough, by the words that go before it. The manner of his saying and proving it, is hard. For he saith of the Roman Church that the Emperor usurpeth the right of earthly power over it. Whereby a man would think he meant to deny the civil rule and government of Rome to the Emperor, as now the Popes do. Then which he meant nothing less: for g Gregor. Registr. lib. 4. epist. 31. & 32. etc. passim. he acknowledged himself the emperors subject, & used him accordingly. But he meant by [the right of earthly power usurped over the Church,] the right of dealing with Church-livings after the manner of the world, in setting them to sale as men do farms and leases: which is profane and detestable. Now Gregory being grieved h Anastas. bibliothecar. in vita Agathon. Sigtabert. in Chron. ad ann. Christ. 680. that the Emperor asked money even of the Bishop of Rome himself, i johan. Diacon. in vit. Greg. lib. 1. cap. 40. whose election he confirmed with his royal assent: he thought good to amplify the heinousness of the fact as most unlawful and wicked in the Church of Rome. And thereupon he saith that Christ did forbid it, who specially committed this Church to S. Peter, saying, To thee will I give my Church. In the gospel we read of Peter, k Luk. 9.33. that he knew not what he said, when he said to Christ whom he beheld in glory, Master it is good for us to be here, and let us make three tabernacles. Gregory had a loving affection to Rome. Will you give me leave to think of him as of Peter, that he knew not what he said? For the words which he allegeth, are not the words of Christ, as you must needs grant. The thing he gathereth of them, is against the words of Christ: who generally committed l Matt. 28.19, all Churches to Peter, (for he was an Apostle;) and, if any specially, it was m Gal. 2.8. that of the jews, whereas n Rom. 11. 1●▪ & 1●. 16, the Roman Church was a church of the Gentiles. Wherefore neither Gregory did purpose to prove the supremacy of the Pope by Christ's words to Peter: neither did Christ mean the Church of Rome specially, but generally the Catholic Church, even all the chosen, when he said of his Church that the gates of hell should not prevail against it. And if, as o Plutarch in Apophthegm. Reg. & Imperat. one appealed from king Philip to king Philip, from Philip half asleep to Philip well awaked, so I may appeal from Gregory to Gregory, from Gregory somewhat troubled to Gregory advised better: himself will by and by give judgement of my side. For in the same treatise he doth p Super v●r●um ●●um. I●itio tu Domine. a little after allege the place rightly, and expound it sound, of them alone, and all them, who are built on Christ firmly, and faithfully, and nothing shall remove them from him. Which to be the natural sense of Christ's words: it is apparent to the eye. For the gates of hell prevail against them, who are adjudged to death eternal. But q Matt. 24.51. hypocrites and evil servants are adjudged to it. The gates of hell therefore prevail against such. Now such have been and may be the members, yea the heads of the Church of Rome. Then our Saviour meant not that privilege to them. Only against the chosen and elect of God, the gates of hell prevail not. For r Rom. 8.30. whom he hath predestinate, them hath he also glorified. Wherefore it is the Church of Gods elect and chosen to whom our Saviour meant it. And them he doth call in this place my Church; as in an other afterward to like effect, s joh. 10.28. my sheep. So what he meant there, by saying of his sheep, to them I give eternal life, and they shall never perish: the same he meant here, by saying of his Church, against it the gates of hell shall not prevail. Which thing is so clear out of all controversy, that to pass over In Matthaeum cap. 16. Theophylact, and u In Matt. tractate. 1. Origen, of whom the one writeth that every man established in the faith of Christ is meant by the Church, & the gates of hell shall not prevail against him; the other, that these gates prevail against all who are not of the Church, and he is neither the Church nor any part thereof whom they prevail against: Nicol. Liran. in Matt. cap. 16. Lira, the meanest of a great many, doth thus expound the place, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church by subverting it from the true faith. Whereby (saith he) it is plain that the Church consisteth not of men in respect of honour, or power ecclesiastical or civil; for many Princes and 1 Summi Ponti●ices. Popes have been found 2 Apostatasse 〈◊〉. to have revolted from the faith: but the Church consisteth of them, in whom there is true knowledge and profession of the faith and truth. Hart. Howsoever Gregory did either mistake the words of the scripture, or not apply them perhaps to the supremacy: yet is the supremacy proved by that title which he giveth the Church of Rome. For if the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches: why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops? Rainoldes. What force this reason hath, we shall see * Chapt. 8. Diuis. 5. anon. But first I must conclude that it is not proved by the holy scriptures: neither by these, which you have alleged out of the Fathers; nor by any other that you can allege. And this hath heretofore been the opinion of learned men amongst yourselves: as i● appeareth by your y Melchior Canus Locor. Theologic. l. 6. c. 8. Canus. Who having examined the point with greater judgement, than Stapletons' are wont: doth grant that it is not written in the scriptures, that the Pope succeed Peter in the supremacy. But that which in Canus might perhaps have seemed one Doctors private fancy, doth seem to be now resolved on by more, and is taught publicly. For your Roman reader, z Robert● Bellarmini Lectiones, de Pontifice (controu. 4. quaest. 5.) finitae 26. Maii, anno Dom. 1578. Romae. the jesuit, Father Robert, in his lectures of the Pope, which for their excellency are set down in writing, and sent abroad as great jewels: doth not only teach the same, but also prove it. And whereas Canus thought, that to convey Peter's right unto the Pope, the stories have sufficient ground, which say that Peter set his chair at Rome, and there died; or, if learned men shall not allow of that, an other ground may be, y Licet Romanos episcopos Petro succedere in sacris libris non habeatur scriptum: ab Apostolis tamen eccle●iae quasi per manus traditum est. that the Church received it though not by scripture, yet by tradition: Father Robert putting the matter out of controversy, defineth z Romanum Pontificem esse Petri successorem in Pontificatut otius orbis, habetu● ex traditione apostolica Petri. that in deed it is a tradition, not of Christ, but of the Apostles: and lest we should doubt of which of the Apostles, he nameth the man, Peter, even a tradition of Peter. Let me entreat you, M. Hart, if all that I have said, cannot prevail with you, yet to regard the doctrine, the doctrine taught at Rome, of your own, of the chiefest of your own Doctors. Renounce the unlearned follies of your Stapleton, & brainsick furies of your Rhemists: who with desperate violence do wrest the word of Christ, to make it serve the pride of Antichrist. Acknowledge that you have not one text through all the scripture to prove the Pope's supremacy: that when you tell men of Thou art Peter, and on this rock, &, I have prayed for the Peter, and, Peter, feed my sheep; you do presume of their simplicity: that in truth these places do not import it, but policy would have somewhat said, eye not so many would believe it: finally, that the Papacy is a devise of Popes and Papists; for which, sith the scriptures can be abused no longer, because men have espied the fraud, therefore a new cloak is found for it now, and hereafter it shall be counted a tradition of Peter. The eighth chapter. The authority 1 of traditions and fathers pretended to prove the Pope's supremacy: in vain; beside the scripture, which is the only rule of faith. The Fathers, 2 being heard with lawful exceptions that may be justly taken against them, 3 do not prove it. As it is showed, first, in Fathers of the Church of Rome. By the way, 4 the name of Priest, the Priestly sacrifice of Christians, the Popish sacrifice of masspriests, the proofs brought for the Mass, the substance and ceremonies of it, are laid open. And so it is declared that 5 neither the ancient Bishops of Rome themselves, 6 nor any other Fathers do prove the Pope's supremacy. HART. The first Division. You labour in vain, if you go about to persuade me that the Pope's supremacy can not be proved by scripture. And what injurious dealing is this, to bring our own men, Canus, and Father Robert, for the proof thereof? as though the greatest favourers of us were against us. Rainoldes. a Matt. 10.24. The scholar is not above his master, nor the servant above his Lord. If Christ my Lord and master were glad to labour in vain: why should I disdain it? Chief, sith I may comfort myself, as he did, b isaiah. 49.4. I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing: but yet my duty is with the Lord, and my work with my God. But what injurious dealing is it, if I, endeavouring to win you to the truth, do bring you the confessions of your own men, who witness a truth? Hart. A truth? Why? will you grant us that the Pope's supremacy came in by tradition: if we will grant you that it can not be proved by scripture? Rainoldes. By tradition? I: if you mean [tradition] as S. c 1. Pet. 1.18. Peter doth, where he teacheth Christians, that they are redeemed from their vain conversation * Vulg. pattern traditionis. of the tradition of their Fathers. Hart. You are disposed to play with your own fancies. You know my meaning well enough. Will you grant that it came in by tradition of the Apostles? Rainoldes. I should play in deed with your own fancies, if I should grant you that. Hart. But they, whom you alleged, do say that it did so: as yourself have showed. Rainoldes. But I will prove that they spoke no truer in that, than you have done in the other. Hart. But what an injury is this, to press me with their former words of the scripture, whereas yourself believe not the later of tradition? Rainoldes. What think you of S. Paul? Did he believe those things which the heathenish Poets do write of Gods and Goddesses, Bacchus, Diana, Minerva, Mercury? Hart. He did not. What then? Rainoldes. Yet d Act. 17.28. he alleged them to persuade the Athenians, that in God we live, and move, and have our being. What an injury was that to press the Athenians with Poet's words of God, whereas himself believed not their words of Gods and Goddesses? Hart. The Poets might say well, and did, in the former: though in the later they miss. Rainoldes. Now, will you deal as friendly with me, as with S. Paul? His case and mine are coosins. Hart. Nay, you in the self same sentence of our men cull out a piece of it, and yet an other piece of it you allow not. Rainoldes. Even so did S. Paul. For that which he avouched out of their own Poets, (the meaning of it is in e Homer. Odyss. lib. 1. Orpheus & Callimachus hymnis in iovem. sundry, the very words in f In phaenom. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Aratus;) they spoke it of jupiter, who was a wicked man, but thought of them to be God: S. Paul, allowing not their error in the person, culled out their sentence concerning the thing, and proved a truth by it. Hart. Well: if you may divide the sentence of Canus and other sort than I have done. Rainoldes. That I wish. For the truth is like unto camomile: the more you press it down, the faster it groweth, and spreadeth fairer, and smelleth sweeter. Hart. So much of scripture then. Now to tradition: by which the Pope's supremacy may be clearly proved. Rainoldes. By tradition? Why? Do you acknowledge then that it cannot be proved by scripture? Hart. I tell you no, once again. How often must I say it? Rainoldes. Once saying will serve, if you do not unsay your saying. But here in my judgement you seem to unsay it. For you disclaim the title pretended by scripture, when you claim by tradition. Hart. Why so? Might not the same thing both be written in scripture, and delivered by word of mouth? Rainoldes. It might, & was no doubt, as m 2. Thess. 2.15. the traditions show which S. Paul doth mention: which signify the doctrine that he delivered n Act. 17.2. out of the scriptures. But you mean a doctrine not written in the scriptures, when you speak of tradition. For o Concil. Trident. Session. 4. you do imagine that the gospel of Christ is partly contained * In libris scriptis & sine scripto traditionibus. in written books that is the scriptures; partly in unwritten things, that is traditions: as p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cap. 1. Elias Le●●ta in T●●bi. the jewish Rabbins do say, that God by Moses delivered not only the law, that is written; but also an unwritten law, which they call Cabala. Hart. See: as the jewish Rabbins. You have enured your mouth to such venomous spéeches·s Rainoldes. Beware: or else through my side you will wound your friend. For q Martin. Perefino de divinis, apostolicis, & ecclesiasti●is ●raditionibus. part. 2. assert. 1. Bishop Peresius, your chiefest patron of traditions, doth prove them solemnly by this point of the jewish Rabbins and the Cabala. Neither is the proof unfit, if it be weighed. For as they pretend this ground for the Cabala, that it openeth the hidden meaning of the scriptures: so do you for traditions. And as r Mat. 15.3. Mar. 7.13. they in process of time brought in doctrine contrary to the scriptures, under pretence of traditions: so do you with your Cabala. And as Cabalists among the jews do call them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elias Levita in Tisbi. scripture-men (by way of reproach) who cast off traditions and cleave to scriptures only: so do traditionists among you reproach us with 2 Scripturarij. Albert. Pigh. eccl. hier. lib. 1. cap. 2. the same term. Yea s Dubitantij dialog. 2. Lindan, and t De vi●●s, sectis, & dogmat. hae●er. l. 17. haer. 1●. Prateolus, do note it for a special heresy. But (to leave this venomous speech) it is manifest that you renounce the scripture for proof of any title, which you lay claim to by tradition. For scripture is written; tradition, unwritten. Wherefore, if by tradition you mind to prove the Pope's supremacy; you must acknowledge first that it cannot be proved by scripture. If you be not willing to ackonwlege that: I must debar you from tradition. Hart. Then I will prove it by the Fathers. Rainoldes. Nay that you shall not neither: unless you will forego the scripture. Hart. And why so I pray? Rainoldes. Because they say, forsooth, that it is held by tradition. So that their evidences make against you, if scripture be your plea for it. Hart. That is very false. For by the words, Thou art Peter and upon this rock, in the sixteenth of Matthew, the first Popes of Rome, most holy martyrs, have proved it: u Epist. prima. Anacletus, x Epist. ad omnes orthodoxos. Alexander the first, y Epist ad omnes ecclesias. Pius the first, z Epist. ad Theophilum. Victor, a Epist. ad Siciliae episcopos. Zepherinus, b Epist. ad episcopos Antiochenae provinciae. Marcellus, c Epist. ad episcopos Campaniae & Tusciae. Eusebius, d Epist. ad Hispaniarum episcopos. Melchiades, e Epist. ad orientales episcopos. julius, & f Epist. ad trium conciliorum Africanorum episcopos. Damasus; and likewise others by other places, as D. g Princ. doctr. lib. 6. cap. 15. Stapleton allegeth farther. Wherefore that the Fathers took it (as you say) to be held by tradition, it is a flat lie. Rainoldes. Say you so? Then h Locor. Theolog. lib. 6. cap. 8. Canus, and i Robert. Bellarmin. controue●. ● quaest. 5. Father Robert do lie flatly, (but that is no marvel,) who grounding it both on tradition, the one doth cite for witnesses thereof the first Popes of Rome, most holy martyrs, Anacletus, Sixtus the first, Eleutherius, Victor, Sixtus the second, Zepherinus, Marcellus, Melchiades, Marcus, & julius: the other not contenting himself with particulars, doth allege in gross, f●●st, the general Counsels; next, the Popes; and last, the Fathers. Hart. Yet more of Canus and Father Robert? I take not their defence upon me: and why again do you tell me of them? Rainoldes. That you may see how * judg. 7.33. the Lord doth sheathe the sword of Madianites in their own sides, to the confusion of them who pitch their camp against Israel. For the same Popes which are alleged by Canus to prove that their supremacy is an unwritten truth; the very same Popes are alleged by Stapleton to prove that it is written: even Anacletus, Victor, Zepherinus, Marcellus, Melchiades, and julius. Yea, and that is more, the very same epistles of theirs are alleged by Stapleton, which by Canus. If rightly by Canus: how may we trust Stapleton? If rightly by Stapleton; how may we trust Canus? If rightly by them both: what trim Popes are they, who with one breath do say that the same thing is both written and unwritten? Yet Father Robert dealeth wiselyer, and like a jesuite: who seeing the danger of naming special men and places, doth shroud himself in the general of Counsels, Popes, and Fathers. As if an horse-stealer being to give account of whom and where he got his horses, should say that he bought them of incorporations, horse-coursers, and honest men within Christendom. Hart. Will you leave your roving, and come unto the mark now? Rainoldes. It is a roving mark we shoot at: and I am come nearer it, than you would have me. But what shall be your next ba●●? Hart. I told you, that I would prove it next by the Fathers. It agreeth very well with your spirit, that you should call this a bolt. Rainoldes. Well enough as you shoot it. For although the Lord hath planted the writings of the Fathers, as trees; in his Church, as in a Paradise; whereof there may be made good shafts; blessed is the man that hath his quiver full of them, they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enemies in the gate: yet not all the shafts, which you do use of theirs, are good; k Stapleton, Torrensis, Canisius, & the rest of the Popish Rabbins. your fletchers (at whose hands you take them upon trust) do mar them in the making, that I may justly call them rather bolts of Papists, than shafts of the Fathers. Who, if they were alive, might say to you in like sort, as did a Poet to Fidentinus: This book (Sir Fidentinus) which thou dost read, is mine: But thou, by reading it amiss, beginst to make it thine. Hart. Will you promise then to yield unto the Pope's supremacy, if I prove it by the sayings and judgement of the Fathers alleged and applied rightly. Rainoldes. I truly. But I must do it with a protestation, for my defence against such quarrelers, as Bishop jewel fell upon. Hart. With what protestation? Rainoldes. With this, that I promise to yield unto the Pope's supremacy, if you can prove it by the Fathers; not because I think that proof to be sufficient of doubtful matters in religion, but because I know you are not able so to prove it. Hart. Whether I be able or no so to prove it, the thing itself will show. But if you think not that a sufficient proof, why said you that the writings of Fathers are as trees, whereof there may be made good shafts, such as shall destroy their enemies in the gate; yea that the man is blessed who hath his quiver full of them? Rainoldes. It is written in the Psalms, l Psal. 127. vers. 2. Except the Lord keep the city, the keeper watcheth in vain. By the which words the Prophet seemeth to have thought, that the ward and watch of men is not sufficient for the defence of cities, unless the Lord assist them with his watch and ward. How say? is not this true? Hart. So. What of that? Rainoldes. That is an answer to your question. For the Prophet adding how m vers. 3. God doth bless men in giving them children, saith, n vers. 4. they are as arrows in the hand of a strong man: o vers. 5.9. blessed is the man that hath his quiver full of them; they shall not be confounded, but they shall destroy their enemies in the gate. If this be truly spoken of children well nurtured, who yet are not sufficient to defend a city without the lords assistance: why might it not be spoken of Fathers well used, and yet they not suffice to decide a controversy without the word of God? For though I acknowledge there is good wood in them to make shafts for the lords wars: yet is not all their wood such; some of it is knotty, some lithy, ●ome crooked. And the best arrows, which are made thereof, unless they have heads of stronger metal, than themselves, out of the Lords armory: they are not sharp enough to pierce into the heart of the kings enemies, as are p Psal. 45.5. the arrows of our Solomon. Wherefore as of your part, q Luk. 16.31. if you harken not to Moses and the Prophets, I have no great hope that Fathers will persuade you, though they should rise from the dead: so for myself I will assure you, that neither dead nor quick, Fathers nor children, shall persuade me any thing in matters of religion, which they can not prove by Moses and the Prophets. For, r Act. 26.22. the Apostles preached not any thing, but that, which the Prophets and Moses said should come to pass. And if a Father, if a Saint, s ●al. 1.8. if an Angel from heaven preach beside that which the Apostles preached, let him be accursed. This lesson I have learned of Paul the Apostle: and I subscribe unto it. If you can like it better out of a Father's mouth, learn it of S. Austin. t Cont. litter. Petilian. Dona●ist. lib. 3. cap. 6. Who writing against the Donatists, which could not prove by scripture their erroneous doctrine, doth press them with the same sentence, and teach all Christians the same lesson: whether it be of Christ, or of his Church, or of any thing else whatsoever pertaining to our faith and life, I will not say, if we, but if an Angel from heaven shall preach to you besides that which you have received in the scriptures of the law and the Gospel (that is to say, the old and new testament,) let him be accursed. Hart. You mistake the meaning of S. Augustine's words. For they are thus in Latin: Proinde, sive de Christo, sive de eius ecclesia, sive d● quacunque alia re, quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram- Rainoldes. I have the right meaning of these words, I trow; for they are plain of all things that do concern our faith and life. Hart. I: but hear the rest. Non dicam, si nos, nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit, licet nos, sed ●mnino quod secutus adiecit, si angelus- Rainoldes. Neither do I mistake these. For he alludeth to the words of Paul to the Galatians. Hart. But you mistake the meaning of that which doth follow, Si angelus de coelo vobis annuntiaverit praeterqàum quod in scriptures legalibus & evangelicis accepistis, anathema sit. Rainoldes. Why? doth he not mean the old & new testament (as we call them) by the scriptures of the law and the gospel? Hart. Yes: but your error is in the word praeterquàm, by which he meaneth contra quàm; not beside that, but against that. For there are sundry things of faith and life to be preached beside them in the scriptures of the law and the gospel, but not against them. Wherefore if it were so that the Pope's supremacy could not be proved by scriptures: yet the proof of it by the Fathers might be good. For it were not against the scriptures; although it were beside the scriptures. Rainoldes. Praeterquàm; id est contra quàm: beside that which you have received in the scriptures, that is, against that. This is your u Annotat. in som. 7. August. script. ● Gravio, probat. a Molano & Theologis Lovan. Lovanists gloze- Hart. Nay, it is S. Augustine's: as you may perceive by his own words in an other place, touching the same matter, x Tractat. 98. ●n Ioha●n●m. where he saith thus. The Apostle did not say, If any man preach unto you more than you have received, but, beside that you have received. For if he should say that, he should be prejudicial to himself, who desired to come to the Thessalonians y 1. Thess. 3.10. that he might supply that which was wanting to their faith. Now he, that supplieth, addeth that which was wanting; taketh not away that which was, and so forth. Whereby S. Austin showeth that we may preach more than the scripture hath: but not beside it, that is to say, against it. Rainoldes. He showeth nothing less: as any man that readeth his discourse, may see. For, that which he speaketh of more, and of wanting, is not meant of scripture, that is, the word written; but of the word preached & delivered by mouth. Wherein he declareth that the Apostles manner of instructing men, was, z 1. Cor. 3.2. Hebr. 5.12. & 6.1. to feed them first with milk, not with strong meat. So, that which was wanting to the Thessalonians, was stronger doctrine of the faith: that which they had, was easier. Whereof though in the one he taught them more than in the other: yet no more in either, than a Act. 26.22. the scripture hath. And thus S. Augustine's more to be no more than scripture: himself maketh manifest by the example also which he giveth of it. For the doctrine of the manhood of Christ, he calleth milk; of the Godhead, strong meat. Now they who are taught to know him to be God, learn more than they had learned when they received him as man. But they learn no more than the scripture hath, b joh. 1.15. Rom. 9.5. 1. Tim. 3.16. which teacheth him both God and man. Wherefore, that S. Austin condemning all who preach aught beside the scriptures of the law & the gospel, meant, that more than scriptures may be preached, but nought against them: it is not S Augustine's gloze, but your Lovanists, and in truth repugnant to S. Augustine's text. For c Contr. litter. Petilian. Donanatist. lib. 3. c. 6. in the same place S. Austin making mention how the Donatists hated him for preaching of the truth and confuting their heresy; * Quasi no● mādauerim●s tanto ante Prophe●●▪ & Apostolis, ut in libris suis nulla testimonia ponerent quib●s pars Donati ecclesia Christi esse doceatur. as though (saith he) we had commanded the Prophets and Apostles who were so long before us, that they in their books should set down no testimonies whereby the Donatists might be proved to be the church of Christ. Which words do show plainly, that as by the scriptures of the law & the gospel he signified the books of the Prophets & Apostles: so by condemning all that is beside the scriptures, he meant, not, all that is against, but, all that is not in the scriptures. And that this was his meaning, he showeth yet more plainly by willing them to prove their doctrine by the testament: which your Lovan d Annot in Tom. 7. Aug. Contraliter. Petilian. lib. 1. cap. 23. Doctors (the greater shame for them to wrest S. Augustine's words against his sense) do note also. For, as amongst men the testament doth open the will of the testator: so did S. Austin think that the controversy betwixt the Donatists and the Church should be decided by the Scriptures, which Christ hath left to Christians as his will and testament. For, e Optatus lib. ● contra Parmenian. Donatist. Christ hath dealt with us, as an earthly Father is wont with his children: who, fearing lest they should fall out after his decease, doth set down his will in writing under witnesses, & if there arise debate amongst the brethren, they go to the testament. He, whose word must end our controversy, is Christ. Let his will be sought in his testament, saith Optatus. Which reason of Optatus S. f Aug. in Psal. 31. exposed. 2. Austin urging against the Donatists, as he doth other often: we are brethren, (saith he to them:) why do we strive? Our father died not untestate: he made a testament, & so died. Men do strive about the goods of the dead, till the testament be brought forth: when that is brought, they yield to have it opened, & read. The judge doth hearken, the counsellors be silent, the crier biddeth peace, all the people is attentive, that the words of the dead man may be read & heard. He lieth void of life & feeling, in his grave, and his words prevail: Christ doth sit in heaven, and is his testament gainesaied? Open it: let us read: we are brethren: why do we strive? Let our minds be pacified. Our father hath not left us without a testament. He that made the testament is living for ever. He doth hear our words: he doth know his own word. Let us read: why do we strive? Were not this a seely speech of S. Austin, if he had meant, as you say, that all the Lords will is not declared in his testament: that things beside his own word may be proved by men's words? Let him be accursed who preacheth any point of faith, or life beside the scriptures. True: beside the scriptures, that is against the scriptures, say your Lovan Doctors. See what skill can do. If they were Doctors of the Arches, we should have jolly law. For a coosining merchant might claim a thousand pound of a dead man's goods, who had bequeathed him a legacy of twenty groats: & they might adjudge it him with good consciences, as not against the testament, though beside the testament. Nay, they might do this with so much better reason, than they do the other; by how much the testament of God is more perfect, than any man's can be: and that which Christ bequeathed the Pope, is far less in comparison of the supremacy, than twenty groats of a thousand pounds. Wherefore, say the Doctors of Lovan what they li●t, (perhaps they speak for their fee:) S. Austin meant plainly, that, sith the Donatists claimed the inheritance of Christ to themselves, they must prove their title by his will and testament. Which if they could not do, or rather seeing that they could not: he pronounceth of them they had no right unto▪ it. And thereupon he cometh to the general sentence of the heavenly judge, denouncing them accursed, who, in any point, either of faith, or life, do preach beside that which is delivered in the scriptures of the law and the gospel. Wherein if [beside] do signify [against:] then all (in this respect) is against a testament, which is beside a testament. Hart. S. Austin, and Optatus, against the Donatists, do speak reason: that, unless they can prove their right by Christ's testament, they may not shut the Catholics out from his inheritance, and claim his goods unto themselves. For it is meet that the will of the testator should be kept. But a learned lawyer, one g Annot. in Optat. lib. 5. Francis Baldwin, who hath set forth Optatus, and written notes upon him, doth show that a testament may be either nuncupatiwm (as he calleth it) or scriptum; either set down in writing, or uttered by word of mouth. What say you to testamentum nuncupatiwm? Rainoldes. I grant that h L. Heredes. Dig. Qui testamentum facere possunt. a testament may be made without writing, so that it be done before a solemn number of witnesses. But the testament of Christ is written, I hope: and so do both Optatus and Austin speak of it. Wherefore your learned Lawyer may keep that law in st●re, until his client need it. Hart. As who say the testament of Christ might not be written in part, though not in whole. Which is Baldwins meaning, as it appeareth by the place, not of Optatus, but of Austin, whereto he apply it. Rainoldes. But if Baldwin meant so, Baldwin should have remembered that a testament so made is not testamentum nuncupatiwm (for i L. Hac consul●●sima. §. per nuncupationem. Cod. dete●tamentis. that is unwritten, as the very k In●titut. lib. 2. tit. 10. §. Sed haec quidem. rudiments of the law might teach him,) but imperfectum rather; though written, yet unperfit. And I trust you will not say, that the testament of Christ is unperfit. Sure Optatus would not. Hart. Nor I sir, though you would feign imply as though I said so. For if Christ would have his will, in part written, in part delivered by word of mouth: join them both together, they make a perfect testament. Rainoldes. Then the written testament of Christ is unperfit. It will be gay and perfect with your traditions patched to it. But Optatus thought that his written testament is perfect of itself. Which shaketh all the frame of Popery in pieces. And this is that Optatus, l Contr. epist. Parm. lib. 1. De unit. eccles. cap. 16. De doctr. Christ. lib. 3. cap. 40. of whom S. Austin speaketh as of a worthy Catholic Bishop equal to Ambrose and Cyprian; of whom m Ad Mon. l. 2. Fulgentius speaketh as of a holy faithful interpreter of Paul like to Austin and Ambrose; of whom n Edmund. Cam●pian. Rat. 5. your great Champion doth vaunt so gloriously, that he, nor he only, but the rest of the * Patres tam sunt nostri, quam Gregori●i ipse decimus tortius. Fathers are of your religion as surely and fully as the Pope himself, Pope Gregory the thirteenth: whereas in very truth not one of them is so. For Gregory the thirteenth is of your religion in the Pope's supremacy, the chiefest point of Popery: as o Published in the year of Christ 1572. Reg. cancellar. Apost. his rules of Chancery for reservations and provisions, p On maunday-Thursday in the year 1575. Litter. processus Grego. decimi tert. le●t. die Coen. Dom. his accursing of all that appeal from Popes to Counsels, q Bulla confirmat. privilege. ord.. de observant. Non-obstantibus etc. and in other bulls commonly. Ecloge bullar. & motuproprior. Greg. decimit●rt. his bulls against decrees of Counsels both provincial and general, do show. From which abomination how far the Fathers were, it shall appear when you allege them. But Optatus is so plain against your religion, in the point of scriptures and their sufficiency to decide all controversies: that your challenger (if he read him, and not believed▪ common-place-bookes of Canisius and other brokers) might have blushed to boast of him. For those things, which r Edmund Campian. Ration. 5. he citeth out of Optatus, do not as much as raze the skin of our religion, though they seem to weak eye sights. But this, of scriptures only, doth break the neck of yours: and it is so clearly the judgement of Optatus, that your own s Annot▪ in Optat. lib. 5. Baldwin, (in his Annotations) is feign to say of him, he used that comparison of a testament not so warily. Hart. Not so warily, as Austin doth. For Austin useth it, when he will prove out of the scriptures that the Church is catholic: which was one of the points of their controversy with the Donatists. Rainoldes. But in handling that point he maketh it a general rule, that, whether it be of Christ, or of his church, or of any thing else whatsoever pertaining to our faith and life, nothing must be preached beside the scriptures, that is, the testament. Hart. But in an other point of their controversy, touching baptism, S. t De baptism. contra Donatist. lib. 4. cap. 6. Austin doth allege not so much the scripture, as the tradition of the Apostles. Rainoldes. Not so much the scripture. He doth the scripture then: though he allegeth also the custom of the Church delivered by the Apostles. But what is that against the testament? Hart. Nay, beside the testament, which is the word written, he doth commend unwritten traditions in other places. Which proveth that he thought not the testament sufficient to decide all controversies. Rainoldes. Now S. Austin findeth favour at your hands, who make him say and unsay the same. But where unsaith he that of the sufficiency of scripture? Hart. You may see in the u Confess. August. lib. 1. c. 8. Augustinian confession of Torrensis, in the chapter of Traditions. Rainoldes. But I would see it in S. Austin. Torrensis is a jesuit, whom we have taken oft in lies. I cannot trust him. Hart. Why? He allegeth S. Augustine's own words. As in x De bapt. co●tr. Donatist. lib. 5. cap. 26. the first place, (which bringeth in S. Cyprian too,) Quod autem nos admonet Cyprianus ut ad fontem rec●rramus, id est, Apostolicam traditionem, & inde canalem in nostra tempora dirigamus, optimum est & sine dubitatione faciendum. That is to say; whereas Cyprian warneth us that we should go to the coondit head, which is the tradition of the Apostles, and thence direct the pipe to our own times: that is best and to be done out of all doubt. These are S. Augustine's own words. Rainoldes. S. Augustine's own words in deed. But what doth follow in S. Austin? Traditum est ergo nobis (sicut ipse commemorat) ab Apostolis, quòd sit unus deus, & Christus unus, & una spes, & fides una, & una ecclesia, & baptisma unum. That is to say: It is delivered therefore to us by the Apostles (as Cyprian himself rehearseth) that there is one God, and one Christ, and one hope, and one faith, and one church, and one baptism. These are S. Augustine's own words, and grounded on S. y Epist. 74. ad ●ompeium. Cyprian too. So that he, and Cyprian, meant by [tradition] that, which is delivered: and that to be delivered, which is written in the scriptures. For this self same thing, whereof they speak, is written in the epistle of ●ph. 4.4. Paul to the Ephesians. Wherefore, their tradition is tradition written, that is to say, scripture: and not unwritten stuff, as your jesuit would have it. Yea Cyprian is so plain for controversies to be decided by this tradition only, that in the same epistle (whence Austin citeth this) to the words of Stephanus, Traditum est, it is delivered, unde est ista traditio, faith he, whence is this tradition? Doth it come from the authority of the Lord and the gospel, or from the commandments and epistles of the Apostles? For that we must do those things which are written, God doth witness saying to joshua, a jos. 1.8. Let not this book of the law depart out of thy mouth: but meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to perform all things which are written therein. And likewise the Lord sending his Apostles willed them that b Matt. 28.20. the nations should be baptised, and taught to observe all things which he had commanded. Wherefore if this thing (of the which Stephanus saith, it is delivered,) be commanded in the gospel, or contained in the epistles or acts of the Apostles: let this divine and holy tradition be observed. See you not how Cyprian thought, that all, which Christ commanded to be taught, is written? How he meant this written doctrine by tradition? How his words of this tradition are approved by Austin? What conscience had your jesuit to allege that for traditions beside scriptures, which they so plainly meant of the scriptures themselves? Hart. I do not see this, neither in S. Austin, nor in S. Cyprian. Rainoldes. I am the sorrier that your sight serveth you no better. For the thing is so clear that your own c Annota●. in epist. 74. ad Pompeium. Pamelius declareth that Cyprian meant the holy scriptures there by tradition. Hart. Yet Pamelius addeth, that, if S. Cyprian had been instructed better that the scriptures cited by him to prove his error, are not of force thereto: S. Austin doubteth not but he would have allowed the contrary tradition. Rainoldes. That may well be. For he should have found it proved by the scriptures, as S. d De baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 1. cap. 7. & deincep● passim. Austin showeth. But in the mean season you may see by Pamelius, that Torrensis abused Cyprian, and Austin, in wresting that to his traditions. Hart. Not so. But his next place of e Sermon. de temp. 191. qui est tertius de Trinita●●. Austin is more pregnant: Let the rule of the Church and the holy tradition and judgement of the Fathers continue sure and sound for ever. Rainoldes. As pregnant as the former. For it followeth strait: Now the faith of our Fathers is this; we believe in God the father almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible, and so he goeth forward with the points of Christian faith. Whereby it is apparent that he meant by [the tradition of the Fathers] their faith. But their faith is written (the substance of it) in the scriptures. Therefore your jesuit faileth in this tradition too. Moreover S. Austin, if he wrote that sermon, whereof your f In Censu● generali To●● 10. operum D. August. Lovan censors doubt, but he, who wrote that sermon, entreateth of the Trinity. But touching the Trinity nothing must be said beside the rule of faith, which is set down in scriptures: as g Chapt. 2. Division 2. I have showed by S. Austin. Wherefore if S. Austin had meant of unwritten tradition in that point: S. Austin would retract it. But indeed the jesuit hath overseen S. Augustine's works very cunningly. Who, bearing men in hand that he hath gathered the sum of Augustine's doctrine out of all his works, yet concealeth that h Confess. August. lib. 1. cap. 7. in the chapter of scriptures, which Austin saith of their sufficiency: & faceth that out i cap. 8. in the chapter of traditions, which should have been defaced by that which Austin saith of scriptures. Howbeit, were it true, that the scriptures without traditions are unperfit and unsufficient to prove the will of God: you are no nearer your purpose, that the proof of it by Fathers is sufficient. For a testament, that is made by word of mouth without writing, must be proved by solemn witnesses. The solemn witnesses of Christ's testament, are the Prophets, and Apostles. So that unless you prove by Prophets and Apostles, that part of the testament of Christ is unwritten, & that he gave the Pope supremacy in that part: your proof by the Fathers will never stand in law. Notwithstanding, though it be against both law and reason, that the Pope should take the whole inheritance of Christ's Church, and put all Bishops to their legacies, unless he prove his right by the testament of Christ: yet, if you can prove it (as I said) by the Fathers, I am content to yield unto it. Hart. If I can prove it by the Father's▪ I will bring them to witness for it. But when will you count it proved? Perhaps when I have proved it, you will say I have not. Rainoldes. And perhaps, when you have not, you will say you have. Hart. Who shall be judge then? And how shall it be tried? Rainoldes. Optatus in the question of the Catholics with the Donatists, whether one should be twice baptised: k Lib. 5. conrr. ●armenian. Donatist. you (saith he) say, it is lawful: we say, it is not lawful. Between your [it is lawful,] & our [it is not lawful,] the peoples souls do doubt and waver. Let none believe you, nor us: we are all contentious men. judges must be sought for. If Christians: they can not be given of both sides; for truth is hindered by affections. A judge without must be sought for. If a Paynim: he can not know the Christian mysteries. If a jew: he is an enemy of Christian baptism. No judgement therefore of this matter can be found in earth: 1 De caelo quae●endus est judex. a judge from heaven must be sought for. But why knock we at heaven: when here we have 2 Testamentum. the testament of Christ in the gospel? So, by the opinion and reason of Optatus, you and we can have no fit judge in earth: God must judge us by his word. But if the Pope will be tried by God & the country: let him appear at the assize; I will indite him of fe●●●ie for robbing Christians of their goods; and I will use no witnesses to prove it but the Fathers. Hart. Nay, we may rather indite you for entering forcibly on his land, I mean on the supremacy, and wrongfully detaining it above these twenty years from him. Though (to say the truth) you are past inditement: you are condemned long ago. Rainoldes. By l Pope Pius the fifth in his Bull against the Queen of England. the Pope in his Consistory. An easy matter where himself is plaintiff, witness, and judge. Hart. Himself is not alone judge there: for he doth all things by the common verdict- Rainoldes. Of an inquest of Cardinals, with whom he doth divide his spoils. And shall they be judges, whether you do prove the Pope's supremacy or no? Hart. They are worthy Prelates, what count soever you make of them. But who shall judge, if not they? Rainoldes. When an issue is joined to be tried by the country, the jury, that shall try it, aught to be of such as be next neighbours, most sufficient, and jest suspicious. This is the law of England. How do you like your country law? hath it not reason? Hart. It hath. But this issue of ours must be tried by the Church, not by the country. Rainoldes. I grant. But the equity of our country law doth hold in the Church too. Hart. Will you be tried then by the Catholic Bishops that are the Pope's neighbours, of France, Spain, and Italy, such as were at the Council of Trent? Rainoldes. Fie: they are the most unfit of all men to try any issue between the Pope and us. Hart. Why so? Rainoldes. For many causes. They are not free holder's. They are the Pope's tenants, his sworn vasals, our sworn enemies: m c. Ego N. extra. de i●reiurando. bound by oath to maintain the Papacy. Are these most sufficient and least suspicious persons? Hart. They are most sufficient. But if your suspicions shall serve to challenge them, you may challenge any. Rainoldes. If you deny the causes, which I alleged: I prove them. If I prove them all: there is no bench of justices in England, but will think my challenge to be very lawful. Hart. Then name yourself the men whom you will admit to be of the jury. Rainoldes. Nay, I will name none. But I am indifferent to all who are indifferent: who have skill to judge of the evidence that is brought, and conscience to give verdict according to the truth. Hart. According to the truth of the evidence, you mean. For so a jury aught. And so let all indifferent men be of the jury. For the words of the witnesses which I will bring shall be so full, so plain in sense, so strong in proof, that they must needs condemn you: unless they will give verdict against the evidence and their consciences. Rainoldes. The crow doth think her own birds fairest. But I must desire the jury to consider that the witnesses, whose words you will bring, are not alive. Hart. Alive? What is that to the trial of our issue? Rainoldes. Much. For if they lived and did appear before the jury, first, they should be sworn to say the truth, and all the truth, and nothing but the truth. Whereby they might be moved both to speak more warily, and to inform the jury more thoroughly, than they have done. Next, it would be easier to examine them of their age, their estate, the circumstances of their persons; of their speeches, the meaning, the occasion and cause thereof. Which all are helps to find out the truth of things in controversy. Thirdly, if it appeared by examination, that either for their persons, or for their speeches, they are unworthy of credit: than it should be lawful to except against them. A liberty, which n L. Testium fides. D. de Testibus. law doth grant against witnesses, if there be cause of just exception. Yet you perhaps (as your men are wont) would make outcry, if I should use it against them who are dead and absent. Wherefore unless the jury do supply that by wisdom and equity, which wanteth in the course of trial, by reason that the witnesses whom you will bring are not alive: they may be deceived by names and shows of witnesses, and thereby give a verdict which shall prove no verdict. For verdict is a speech of verity. Hart. An honest man's word is as good as his oath. For as he will not forswear: so neither lie. The Fathers must not therefore be the less believed, because they are not sworn. Rainoldes. Yet an honest man, when he is sworn, will speak more fully and maturely then when he is unsworn. And he may say that sometime on conjecture, which on his oath he would not say. Hart. But that may be perceived by the Father's writings, when they do pronounce of a thing, as certain; when, as uncertain, they conjecture it. And so may other circumstances (which you require) be known too: as well as if themselves were present. Rainoldes. Not so well. For their writings do not answer to many questions, which, if they were present, I would ask of them. But I am content with that which may be known so. Let the jury weigh it, and judge thereafter of their credit. Hart. What? Shall meaner men, who be alive now, judge of the credit of the Fathers, who were so long in time, so far in gifts before them? Rainoldes. Euagrius, a mean man, wrote unto S. jerom, desiring his opinion concerning Melchisedec, whether he were the holy Ghost. S. o Epist. 126. 2● Euagrium. jerom, answering him, when he had showed the judgements of the ancient writers Origen, Didymus, Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Eusebius Caesariensis, and Emisesenus, Apollinarius, Eustathius, and the best learned jews, of whom some thought Melchisedec, an angel; some, a man: you have (saith he) what I have heard, what I have read touching Melchisedec. * Meum fuit recitare testes: tu um sit de fide testium judicare. To bring forth the witnesses, it was my part: let it be yours to judge of the credit of the witnesses. It seemed reason to S. jerom that Euagrius should judge of of the witnesses whom he brought. What is there more in the Fathers, than was in those witnesses? What was there more in Euagrius, then is in many who live now? Hart. But you perhaps will cavil, either at the persons, or at the speeches of the Fathers, The second Division. and think that every toy is a sufficient reason, why men should not believe them. Rainoldes. Whether the exceptions, that I shall take against any, be cavils and toys: let the jury judge. Nay, I durst say almost, let mine adversary judge. For what think you you● self, if one allege for scripture that which is not scripture: may not that authority be justly refused? As if, for example, a man should write that Christ said to his disciples, that which I say to one of you, I say to all. Hart. In deed M. p In the defence of the Apolog. part. 2. jewel alleged that for scripture, to prove that the words of Christ unto Peter, feed my sheep, feed my lambs, were spoken n ot to him only but to the rest of the Apostles. Wherein he was justly reproved by D. q In his Detection lib. 3. Harding. For Christ did not say, what I say to one, that I say to all: but, r Mar. 13.37. what I say to you, (meaning, the Apostles,) that I say to all (Christians,) watch. So good is our cause, that M. jewel could not make show of truth against it, but by foul corruption and falsifiing of the scriptures. Rainoldes. I pray be good to M. jewel for M. Optatus and Fulgentius sake: who Optat▪ contr. Parmen. lib. 1. Fulgent. ad Trasimundum Reg. lib. 1. both have missealleaged the same words of Christ, yea one of them in like sort, as Bishop jewel did. For, to prove that the words of the Lord to Esay, t isaiah. 58.1. Cry and cease not, were spoken not to Esay only, but to all preachers, he useth this reason, that Christ doth say to his disciples, what I say to one of you, I say to all. Wherein, as the doctrine of a preachers duty is true, though the proof be false: so is in Bishop jewel the doctrine of the Apostles duty. And Bishop jewels proof, from one Apostle unto all, is better grounded on the words, than the other from Esay the Prophet to all preachers. Moreover the fault remaineth uncorrected in ●ulgentius and Optatus: Bishop jewel hath corrected it. Wherefore if you condemn him of foully corrupting and falsifying the scripture, because he missealleaged that sentence of Christ: what judgement will you give of Fulgentius and Optatus? Hart. Nay, it is likely that they oversaw it by a slip of memory. Rainoldes. The same would you judge of M. jewel, if some what did not blind your eye. But by this your judgement I see, that where the Fathers mistake the words of scripture, they may be refused. What if they mistake, not the words but the sense: may we refuse them also there? As u In dialog. cum. Tryphon. jud. justin the Martyr, x Hieron. comment. in isaiah. l. 18. in praefat. Irenaeus, y Euseb. hist. ecclesiast. lib. 3. cap. 36. Papias, z De spe fidelium: ut citatur▪ ab Hieronymo. Tertullian, a Hieron. de scriptor. ecclesiast. in verbo Papias. Victorinus, b Diuina●. institut. l. 7. c. 23. Lactantius, c Hieron. comment. in isaiah. lib. 18. in praefat. Apollinarius, d Hieron. comment. in Ezech. lib. 11. Severus, and e Euseb. hist. eccles. lib. 7. cap. 23. Nepos, in that they thought that Christians after the resurrection should reign a thousand years with Christ upon the earth, in a golden jerusalem, and there should marry wives, beget children, eat, drink, & live in corporal delights. Which error, though repugnant flatly to f 1. Thess. 4.17. Matt. 22.30. the scriptures, yet they fell into; partly, by confounding g Reu. 20.5. the first and second resurrection: partly, by taking h Re●. 21.10. & 22.2. that carnally, which was mystically meant in the Revelation. Hart. That was the heresy of the Millenaries, as they are called. Howbeit in the Fathers, though it were an error, yet it was no heresy. Rainoldes. I do not say it was an heresy. I say that they mistook the meaning of the scripture: which you can not deny. Yea some times, when they neither mistook the words, nor the meaning, yet they taught amiss out of it. As, that i Exod. 20. 1●. God created the world in six days, they understood it rightly. But to conclude thereof that the world should last but six thousand years, because k 2. Petr. 3.8. one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, & a thousand years as one day: this was an oversight. For if that were true, which they did gather of those words: then might we know l Act. 1.7. the times, whereof our Saviour saith that it is not for man to know them. And upon this reason S. m In e●arrat. Psalm. 89. & de civit. Dei lib. 1●. cap. 53. Austin doth reprove that fancy of six thousand years, as rash and presumptuous. Hart. So do we also. For n In Dubitantio. Dialog. 2. Lindan and o De vit. sect. & dogmat. haeret. lib. 9 tit. judaeorum haereses. Prateolus do note it, in Luther's and Melanchthons' Chronicles, as a jewish heresy. Rainoldes. Good reason, when Luther and Melanchthon writ it. But when p Adverse. haeres. lib. 5. cap. 23. Irenaeus, q Divinar. institut. lib. 7. c. 14. Hilary, r In Mattha●um canine 17. Lactantius, and s Hieron. epist. 139. ad C●p●ian justin, Mart. responsion. ad Orthod. question. 71. other Fathers writ it: what do they note it then? Hart. Suppose it were an oversight. But what needs all this? As who say you doubted that we would maintain the Fathers in those things in which they are convicted of error by the scriptures. Rainoldes. I have cause to doubt it. For though there be no man lightly so profane, as to profess that he will do so: yet (such is the blindness o● mens devotion to saints) there have been heretofore who have so done, and are still. There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin: that, when the time of her death approached, the Apostles (then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospel) were taken up in clouds, and brought miraculously to jerusalem to be present at her funeral. This tale in old time was written in a book which bore the name of Melito, * Euseb. histor. ec●les. l. 4. c. 13. & 25. an ancient learned Bishop of Asia: though he wrote it not be like. But whosoever wrote it, he wrote a lie, (saith t Retractat. in Act. Apost. c. 8. Bede,) because his words gain say the words of S. Luke in the acts of the Apostles. Which Bede having showed in sundry points of his tale, he saith, that he rehearseth these things, because he knoweth, that some believe that book with unadvised rashness against S. Luke's authority. So you see there have been who have believed a Father (yea perhaps a rascal, not a Father) against the scriptures. And that there are such still, I see by our countrymen, u In their Annotations upon the Acts of the Apostles. 1.14. your divines of Rheims: who vouch the same fable, upon greater credit of Fathers than the other, but with no greater truth. Hart. Do you call the assumption of our Lady, a fable? What impiety is this against the mother of our Lord, that excellent vessel of grace? whom x Luk. 1.41. all generations ought to call, blessed. But you can not abide her praises and honours. Nay, you have abolished not only her greatest feast of her assumption, but of her conception and nativity too. So as it may be thought the devil beareth a special malice to this woman, whose seed broke his head. Rainoldes. It may be thought that y Jude vers. 9 the devil when he did strive with Michael about the body of Moses, ( z Deut. 34.6. whom the Lord buried, the jews knew not where,) did strive a Nicol. Lir. in Deuter. 34. & epistolum judae. that his body might be revealed to the jews, to the intent that they might worship it and commit idolatry. But it is out of doubt, that when he moved b Act. 14.11. the people of Lystra to sacrifice unto Paul and Barnabas, and to call them Gods, he meant to deface the glory of God, by the too much honouring and praising of his Saints. We can abide the praises of Barnabas and Paul: but not to have them called Gods. We can abide their honours; but not to sacrifice unto them. We know that the devil doth bear a special malice both to the woman and to the woman's seed. But whether he doth wreak it more upon the seed, by your sacrificing of praises and prayers to the woman, or by our not sacrificing: let c Exod. 22.20. Matt. 4. ●0. Col. 2.18. revel. 19.10. & 22.9. them define d 2. Cor. 2.11. who know his policies. The Christians of old time e Tertullian. in Apologet. Euseb. hist. eccl. l. 4. c 13. were charged with impiety, because they had no Gods but one. This is our impiety. For whatsoever honour and praise may be given to the Saints of God as holy creatures, but creatures: f Confess. Hel●●t. cap. 5. Confess. Bohem. Augustan. Saxoni. etc. in Harmonia confes●ionum fidei. Section. 2. we do gladly give it. We think of them all, and namely of the blessed virgin, reverently & honourably. We desire ourselves, and wish others, to follow her godly faith and virtuous life. We esteem her as an excellent vessel of grace. We call her (as the scripture teacheth us) g Luk. 1.28. blessed: yea the most blessed of all women. But you would have her to be named and thought not only blessed herself, but also a giver of blessedness to others; not a vessel, but a fountain, or (as you entitle her) h Maria matter gratiae, matter misericordiae: a mother of grace and mercy. And in your solemn prayers you do her i Tu nos ab host besiege, & hora mortis suscipe. Offic. B. Mariae uirg resor. mat. & edit. a Pio quint. that honour, which k Psal. 31.5. Act. 7.59. Psal. 50.15. Luk. 11.4. is only due to our creator and redeemer. For you call on her to defend you from the enemy, and receive you in the hour of death. Thus, although in semblance of words you deny it, yet in deed you make her equal to Christ: l Antonin. in s●●ma pa●t. 4. Tit. 15. cap. 44. Chassanaeus in catalogo gloriae mundi, part. 3. consid. 4. as him our Lord, so her our 1 Domina. Lady: as him our God, so her our 2 Dea. Goddess: as him our King, so her our 3 Regina. Queen: as him our mediator, so her our 4 Mediatrix. mediatresse: as him in all things tempted like us, sin excepted, so her 5 Immunis ab omni corruptione peccati. devoid of all sin: as him the only name whereby we must be saved, so her our 6 Vita, life, our 7 Dulcedo, joy, our 8 Spes nostra salve. hope, a very mother of orphans, an aid to the oppressed, a medicine to the diseased, and (to be short) 9 Omnibus es omnia. all to all. Which impious worship of a Saint because you have advanced by keeping holy days unto her, the feasts of her conception, nativity, & assumption; therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches justly. For the use of holy days, is, not to worship saints, but to worship God, the sanctifier of saints. As m levit. 23.24. Neh. 8. vers. 2.6.8. & 18. Act. 20.7. 1. Cor. 16.2. Reu. 1.10. the Lord ordained them, that men might meet together to serve him and hear his word. Hart. Why keep you then still the feasts of the Apostles, Evangelists, & other Saints, and not abolish them also? As some of your reformed, or rather your deformed Churches, have done? Rainoldes. Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight, who n joh. 4.23. requireth men to worship him in spirit & truth: though you, besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues, do scorn at their simpleness, as o 2. Sam. 6.20. the proud spirit of Mical did at David when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland, Flanders, France, and p Confess. Heluetica, cap. 24. cui subscripserunt ecclesiae Sabaudicae, Polonicae. Hungaricae, Scoticae, Gallicae, & Belgicae. In harmomonia confessionum fidei. others, allow not holy days of Saints, because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God. Of the same judgement is the Church of England for the use of holy days. Wherefore, q In their observations upon the Harmony of confessions. Section. 16▪ ad ●ohemicam, observat. 〈◊〉 although by keeping the names of saints days, we may seem to keep them to the honour of saints: yet in deed we keep them holy to God only, to praise his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on us by the ministery of his Saints. And so have q In their observations upon the Harmony of confessio●s. Section 16. ad Bohemicam▪ obser●●●. ●. the Churches of Flanders and France expounded well our meaning, in that they have noted that some Churches submit themselves to their weakness with whom they are conversant, so far forth that they keep the holy days of Saints, though in an other sort, nay in a clean contrary, than the Papists do. Hart. But if you keep the feasts of other Saints in that sort, why not of her also, of whom our Saviour took flesh, and was brought forth into the world? Rainoldes. So we do: the feasts of the annunciation of the blessed virgin, and the purification. Hart. Nay, the days of other Saints, which you celebrate, as namely of Peter, Paul, and john, are the days of their death, and so are proper unto them. Wherefore you should of reason at the least celebrate our lady's assumption, as the day of her death. For though you believe not that her body is assumpted, yet you will not (we trow) deny that she is dead, and her soul in glory. But you do neither celebrate that, nor any other of her proper feasts. For as for the days of her purification and annunciation, they be not proper to our Lady: but the one to Christ's conception, the other to his presentation. So that she by this means shall have no festivity at all. Rainoldes. No festivity at all? What a foolish fancy is this of your r In their Annot. upon the Act. 1.14. Rhemists? As though the blessed virgin were like to * ovid. Metamorphos. lib. 8. Superos perue●it ad omnes Ambitiosus honour. Solas sin● thure relictas Praeteritas cessasse ●erunt La●oidos aras Tangit & iraDeos. Diana, and the Saints of Christ to the Paynim-gods: who every one must have his feast, and if you forget or pass over any, their honour is attainted in it. But by this sentence you justify the reformed Churches: both the rest, and ours. The rest, in that you think the holy days of Saints are instituted to their honour: which corrupt opinion, and superstition growing of it, might be a sufficient cause to abolish them. Ours, in that you say that the annunciation and purification of the virgin are not proper to our Lady (as you call her,) but to Christ. Wherein you acknowledge, that the holy days of Saints which we keep, are kept to Christ's honour, and not to theirs. For as the annunciation of the blessed virgin is proper unto s Luk. 1.31. Christ conceived, and the purification to t Luk. 2.22. Christ presented in the temple: so the day of Peter is proper unto u Matt. 16.16. Christ professed, the day of Paul to x Act. 9.20. Christ preached, the day of john to y joh. 21.24. Christ published by the writing of the Gospel. And this of them is as clear, as is the other of the virgin, by z The collects, epistles, & Gospels (as they are termed) in the book of common prayer▪ the prayers which we make, and the parts of scripture which we read on those days. Wherefore although we celebrate the memory of these things touching the Apostles, on those days on which they died, perhaps, (for neither are you sure of that, though you celebrate them in memory of their death:) yet we do it not in respect of their death so to honour their assumption, but in respect of those things which Christ did by them while they lived. And by the same reason you may prove that we keep no holy day to any Saint, by the which you gather ●hat the annunciation and purification of the virgin are not proper unto her. Which in deed you say, not because you think it, or have cause to think it: but to make us odious, by bearing men in hand that we despise the blessed virgin. For both yourselves do count them and call them a Festa Sanctae Mariae: Purificationis, Annuntiationis, Visitationis, Assumptionis, Nativitatis, Conceptionis: & S. Mariae ad Nives. Missale Romanum in ordinario Missae. her feasts, as well as any other of those that bear her name: and the common people, when they call the annunciation day, our Lady day, (by your corrupt custom,) think it as proper unto her, as S. Peter's is to him: and b Confes●io Heluetica cap. 24. Sect. 16. in Harmon. Confess. fid. the reformed Churches, which disallow the feasts of Saints, have disallowe● these amongst them, where yet they allow the feasts that do belong to Christ, his nativity, circumcision, passion, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the holy Ghost. Hart. But if your reformed Churches think it dangerous to keep any feast of the blessed virgin: why do you retain two of them in your Church, and not the rest as we do. Rainoldes. You may learn the reason hereof in your Portesse, reform lately by the Pope. In your old c Portiforium seu breviarium, ad usum ecclesiae Sarum: in festo S. Thomae Can●●ariensis. Portesse there was this prayer to the Pope's martyr, S. Thomas Becket of Canterbury: Christ jesus, per Thomae vulnera, Quae nos ligant. relaxa scelera. By Thomas wounds, O Christ jesus, Lose thou the sins▪ which do bind us. Or, if you will have better rhyme, with as bad reason: Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem pro te impendit, Fac nos christ scandere quo Thomas a●cendit. By the blood of Thomas which he for thee did spend, Make us O Christ to climb whether he did a●●end. Hart. This is your common objection against our prayers to Saints: but an objection for a Cobbler, and not for a Divine, as D. d In his De●●●●. l 5. c. 10. Harding told jewel. For Christ, in this prayer, is used as the only mediator of salvation: S. Thomas, a mediator of intercession to Christ. Rainoldes. Good words, M. Hart. Your plaster, of mediators of intercession and salvation, is too narrow for this soar. Your pang doth make you not to see it. Hart. Nay: no whit to narrow. For the mediation which we give to Saints, is so far inferior to the divine and singular mediation of Christ, that whereas we say to them, Pray for us, we say not so to him, we do not think of him so basely, but we desire him to have mercy upon us. Wherefore, we make him only mediator of salvation; and them, of intercession. Rainoldes. Yet is your plaster too narrow for the soar which you apply it too. For the blood and wounds of Thomas are presented, in the prayers that I spoke off. And although you think not of intercession generally, as e Hebr. 7.25. the scripture doth, which maketh it proper to f 1. Tim. 2.5. the only mediator between God and man, the man Christ jesus: yet (I hope) you think of that intercession by the blood and wounds, that it is his alone, who gave himself a ransom for us, and g 1. Pet. 1. 1●. redeemed us with his precious blood. But if it were so that Thomas might be made a mediator of intercession in this pre-eminent sort: that can not heal your Portesse. For it doth make him ●latly a mediator of salvation: not only to pray for us, but to have mercy upon us. Op●● nobis ô Thoma porrige: Rege stantes, iacentes erige: Mores, actus, & vitam corrig●: Et in paci● nos viam dirige. Salue Thoma, virga justitiae, Mundi iubar, robur ecclesiae, Plebis amor, cleri deliciae: Salue gregis tutor egregie, salva tuae gaudentes gloriae. * This is the meaning of the Latin. But the grace thereof is half lost for lack of ●yme: which in the Latin is very good. O Thomas reach thy help to us: Stay them that stand, raise them that lie: Correct our manners, deeds & life: Guide us into the way of peace. All hail o Thom, the rod of right, The worlds light, the church's strength, The people's love, the clergies joy: All hail brave patron of the flock, Save them who in thine honour glee. This prayer, which giveth the honour of God to a creature, is not in your h Bre●iarium Roman. 〈◊〉 decret. Sacrosanct council. Trid. ●estitut. & edit. a Pio Quint. reformed Portesse: i Sabbato in hebdomada quarta Quadragesimae. where yet there is a prayer which giveth as great honour to an other creature, even to a wooden cross. O ●rux, ●●e, ipes unica, Ho● passionis tempore, Auge piis justitiam, Reisque dona veniam. All hail o cross, our only hope, In this time of the passion, Increase thou justice to the godly, And give to sinners pardon. Now sith our reformed Church hath thought it impious to offer any such prayers to creatures: why have you retained this, to the cross, and not the other to S. Thomas. Hart. Whether that prayer to S. Thomas of Canterbury were in the Roman Portesse, before they reform it: I am not sure; perhaps it was not; although it were in ours after the use of Sarum. Rainoldes. Most likely that it was in the Roman too: sith he died a martyr of the Roman Papacy. But whether it were or no: there were other things 1 In cer●a. uncertain and 2 Aliena. inconvenient, which the reformers have left out, as k Pope Pius the fifth. Praefat. Roman. Breviar. reformat. the Pope confesseth. Who l Praefat. office Beat. Mar. virg. nuper reformat. confesseth also, that almost all Primers, yea the Latin too, 3 Vanis superstitionum ●rr●●●ibus referta. were stuffed full with vain errors of superstitions, before he reform it. Wherefore sith you have left out other superstitious & inconvenient things, in your reformed Seruicebookes: why have you retained this prayer to the cross, which might have gone with the rest? Hart. The other were abolished justly, as unfit. But this is ●ot so. For why should you mislike a prayer to the cross, of which S. m Gal. 6▪ ●4. Paul saith, God forbidden that I should rejoice but in the cross of our Lord jesus Christ? Rainoldes. That is, in Christ crucified, as S. Paul doth mean it: not in the 1 Regnavit a ligno De●s. wood, the 2 Suspensus est paribulo. gallows, the 3 Arbour decora & fulgid●, Or na●●●egis purpura. Electa digno ●●●pite 〈◊〉 sancta membra tangere: tree, 4 Be●ta cuius brachiis Secli pependit pretium, Statêra sacta corporis, Praedam●ue tulit Tartari, O crux, ●ue spes unica, & quae sequuntur. to which you make your prayer. For God forbid that we should rejoice in any thing, saving n 1. Cor. 1.31. in the Lord: whose redeeming of us by suffering death upon the cross, because it was a stumbling block to the jews; S. Paul saith o Gal. 5.11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the cross was a stumbling block, by a * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. figurative speech, meaning (as himself doth open it) p 1. Cor. 1.23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Christ crucified. And so he calleth Christ's blood, q Col. 1.20. the blood of the cross; and the preaching of his gospel, r 1. Cor. 1.18. the preaching of the cross; and persecution rising of it, s Gal. 6.12. persecution for the cross: and against them who rejoiced in circumcision and the law, he saith that he rejoiceth not but in the cross of our Lord jesus Christ. But, to the purpose of my question, if they of your Church, who reform your Seruicebookes, thought, that of the prayers which we do mislike they might abolish some and retain others: what if amongst the feasts which others do mislike, they, who reform our ceremonies, retained the annunciation and purification of the virgin, though they abolished the conception, nativity, and assumption? Chief seeing that in those, which they retained, they regarded the honour of Christ conceived and presented, as yourselves acknowledge: in those, which they abolished, they removed the superstitious worship of a creature, as the thing witnesseth. For both they were supposed to be feasts instituted to a Saints honour, as they were indeed: neither is there any thing of them in the scriptures, that men might be edified by that whereof the memory was celebrated in them: and they maintain corrupt opinions, touching the virgin, with derogation to Christ's honour. For t Thom. Aquin. Summ. Theolog. part. 3. quaest. 27. art. ●. Sixtus Papa quartus c. cúm praeexcelsa. extravag de reliquiis & veneratione Sanctorum. you mean by the feasts of her nativity, and conception, that she was neither borne nor conceived in sin. Which if it were so▪ then neither she needed Christ to be u Luk. 1.47. her Saviour, who came to save sinners: & the prerogative of Christ, y Heb. 7. 2●. to be severed from sinners, were common unto her with him. x 1. Tim. 1.15. A thing so absurd and contrary to the scriptures, (which show that z Rom. 5.12. all have sinned, and a Eph. 2.3. are the children of wrath by nature,) that not b Ambros. l. 2. comment. in Luc c. 2. & in Psalm. 1. 11●. Serm. 6. August. in Psal. 34. contion. 2. & contr. Iu●ian. l. 5. c. 15. & De perfect. justit. c. 21. Leo de nativit. ●om. Serm. 1. & 2. Fulgent. de side ad Petr. c. 26. Damascen. de orthod. fid. l. 3. cap. 2. Beda l. 1 ●● Luc. c. 1. Anselm. Cur Deus homo. l. 2. c. ●● 6. Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174. the Father's only, but your chief c Thom. Aquin. part. 3. quaest. 27. art. ●. Bonau. in 3. S●●t. dist. 3. art. 1. quaest. 2. Anton. Summ. part. 1. tit. 8. c. 2. Schoolmen, and d De consecr. dist. 4. c. Firmi●sun●▪ Canons also, do gainsay it. Yea the feast of her conception, when it was creeping in, was therefore e Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174. Beleth. in explicat. divin. office c. 146. Durand. in Rationali l. 7. cap. 7. reproved: and the very gloze of your f De consecrat. distinct 3. c. pronuntiandum. Canon-law condemned sundry countries, and England namely, for keeping it. But the conception and nativity of the blessed virgin make her scarce equal unto Christ: the feast of the assumption doth lift her somewhat higher. For when Christ was taken up into heaven: g Luk. 24.30. Act. 1.12. the Apostles were lead forth a litleway on foot, to see it and witness it. But to her assumption they were brought by miracle, in clouds, as in chariots, from all the coasts of the world, through which they were dispersed. And this is it which I called, and call again, a fable, or if you will, a lie, as h Retract. in Act. Apost. c. 8. Bede doth: though your Divines of Rheims do vouch it as a true story. Hart. It is a true story, as our Divines of Rheims do ●ouch it: though, as he reported it whom venerable Bede doth touch, it was a lie. For i Melito de transitu S. Mariae. he reported it to have been done the second year after Christ's ascension▪ which Bede doth prove it could not be. But our Divines refer it to the fifteenth year after. For they take the common opinion that she lived three score and three years in all. Now, k Nicephor. hist. eccle. l. 2. c. ● she brought forth Christ when she was fifteen year old. So that her assumption was eight and forty years after Christ's nativity. And this agreeth with l In chronico. Eusebius, who saith that some do write it was revealed to them that she was assumpted the eight and forteeths year of Christ: which was fifteen years after his ascension. Rainoldes. Then you grant that they, who say it was the second year after, do lie. Hart. I grant. For that circumstance can not stand with scripture: as venerable Bede doth prove. Rainoldes. Then a m Beata Elisabet. Antonin. hist part. 1. tit. 6. c. 3. holy nun did lie, or an angel, n Vincent. speculi hist. lib. 1. cap. 80. or a devil that appeared in the likeness of the virgin, and told her that tale. Hart. What if some were deceived in circumstance of time. Yet the story notwithstanding of her assumption is true, as our Divines of Rheims report it. For * Rhem. Annot. upon Act. 1.14. at the time of her death, (as S. o Dionys. epist. ad Timotheum. Denys first, and after him S. p De dormition. Deiparae. Damascene writeth,) all the Apostles, then dispersed into divers nations to preach the gospel, were miraculously brought together, (saving S. Thomas who came the third day after,) to jerusalem, to honour her divine departure and funeral, as the said S. Denys writeth. Who saith, that himself, S. Timothee, and S. Hierotheus were present: testifying also of his own hearing, that, both before her death and after for three days, not only the Apostles and other holy men present, but the Angels also and powers of heaven did sing most melodious hymns. They buried her sacred body in Gethsemani. But for S. Thomas sake, who desired to see and to reverence it, they opened the sepucher the third day: and finding it void of the holy body, but exceedingly fragrant, they returned, assuredly deeming that her body was assumpted into heaven. As the Church of God holdeth, being most agreeable to the singular privilege of the mother of God: and therefore celebrateth most solemnly the day of her assumption. And it is consonant not only to the said S. Denys, & S. Damascene, but to S. q Serm. in evan. de Deipara. Athanasius also, who avoucheth the same. Of which assumption of her body S. Bernard also wrote five notable sermons, extant in his works. Rainoldes. But in all those five sermons of S. Bernard, there is not one word of your miraculous fable. As little, in S. Athanasius: beside that, the sermon, which you allege as his, is in r In edit. Petri Nannij Lovan. prae●at. ad Episcopum Atrebat. your own edition rejected for a bastard. In Damascene there is more: yet not so much neither, as here s Breviar. Romanum in Festis August. quarto di● infra octavam assumpt. Beat. Mariae. your Portesse hath. But he is * About the year of Christ 740. too late & too weak a witness, to prove a doubtful matter pretended to be done almost five hundred years before him. The best, or rather all your proof, is S. Denys: whom you belie notably. For where saith he that which you do father on him? Hart. Where? o Dionys. epist. ad Timotheum. in an epistle of his to S. Timothee. Rainoldes. He wrote no such epistle. Your Rhemistes did mistake their Portesse, whence this stuff is borrowed. For reading there, that Denys wrote hereof to Timothee, they thought it had been in an epistle to Timothee. The place, which they meant, is in a t Dionys. ad Timotheum de divin. nomin. cap. 3. book entitled of the names of God: pretended to be written to Timothee by Denys. Hart. In a book, or an epistle; it is a great matter why you should charge them with lying. Rainoldes. I do not therefore charge them with it. Neither would I mention this, but to point you the place in which they lie. For they say that S. Denys writeth these & these things: where neither the autour who writeth is S. Denys, neither writeth he the things which they allege. Touching the things, first, he saith no more thereof but that amongst the Bishops inspired of the holy Ghost Hierothe●s excelled all the rest (save the Apostles) in praising Christ's goodness, when himself, and Timothee, and many of their holy brethren, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. came together to behold the body which received God, and which the Prince of life was in. As for the miracle of the Apostles brought together, S. Thomas coming the third day after, the Angels singing hymns three days, the burial of the virgin's body, the desire of Thomas to see it, the sepulchre opened for his sake, and the body assumpted into heaven: he saith not one word of these conceits, not one word. Nay he rather saith against them. For he noteth namely that james was also present the brother of the Lord, and Peter the chief and ancientest top of the Apostles. Which it is not likely he would so note of two Apostles, if they had all been present. Much less is it likely that he would say nothing of so great a miracle, if any such had happened. Hart. Perhaps it is written in some other part of S. Denys works. Rainoldes. In no part at all of any work that beareth the name of S. Denys. Hart. Not that is extant now. But he wrote many more▪ as u Histor. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 20. Nicephorus showeth: and x De dormition. Deiparae. Damascene maketh mention of this epistle to Timothee. Rainoldes. Nay, that which Damascene mentioneth is y De divinis nominibus ad Timotheum. the book I spoke of: whence all, that he citeth, is taken word for word. Yea Nicephorus also z Histor. eccle. lib. 2. cap. 22. doth allege the same, (quoting * In tertio capite ad Timotheum. the very chapter) as the only place wherein the assumption of the blessed virgin is proved by S. Denys. The more do I marvel what should move your Rhemists to say that S. Denys writeth and witnesseth that all the Apostles were brought miraculously together, to honour her divine departure; yea and that he testifieth of his own hearing, that both before her death and after, for three days, the Angels did sing most melodious hymns: unless they were disposed to lie for the whetstone. But this, of the things. The other, of the autour, is not so great a fault: yet a fault too. For they would have men think that he who wrote this work 1 De divinis nominibus. of the names of God, & others 2 De coelesti & ecclesiastica hierarchia. of the heavenly & * That is, the holy government of the Church. ecclesiastical hierarchy, (as he termeth it,) was a Dionysius Areopagita. the famous Denys, b Act. 17.34. the scholar of S. Paul. Whereas it was a counterfeit, who took that Denys name upon him. Hart. It was that famous Denys in deed c As the Rhemists say in their Annotations on Act. 17. ●4. who wrote those notable and divine works, and others: in which he confirmeth and proveth plainly almost all things that the Church now useth in the ministration of the holy sacraments; and affirmeth that he learned them of the Apostles: giving also testimony for the Catholic faith in most things now controversed, so plainly, that your men have no shift but to deny that Denys to have been the author of them, feigning that they be an others of later age. Which is an old sleight of heretics: but most proper to you of all others. Who seeing all antiquity against you are forced to be more bold, or rather impudent, than others in that point. Rainoldes. These flowers of your Seminary, that we are heretics, bold, impudent; that all antiquity is against us: you may spare them, for they are stolen; they have been dipped in gall & lie. You say that he proveth plainly almost all things that the Church now useth in the ministration of the holy Sacraments. If you mean by the Church, not our Church, but yours: that [almost] must have favour, or else without almost you lavish. For though he have more things, then either the Church of the Apostles had, or ours doth allow: yet neither all that you have, & many that you have not, and some clean contrary to yours. As namely, in the sacrament of the Lords supper, wherein you vary from us most: he neither hath your stagelike gestures & toys, nor invocation of saints, nor adoration of creatures, nor sacrificing of Christ to God, nor praying for the souls in Purgatory, nor sole receiving of the Priest, nor ministering under on● kind to them who receive, nor exhortations, lessons, prayers in a tongue which the people doth not understand. So that in things of substance, and not of ceremony only, he differeth as far from your blasphemous Mass, as he is near to our Communion. But the things which he hath, you say that he affirmeth he learned them of the Apostles. He doth so, I grant: as it was fit for him, e De divin. nomin. cap. 2. & 3. who would be counted that Denys which was converted by S. Paul. But, as it happeneth unto counterfeits, he hath forgot himself in one place, and so betrayed the feat. For, f Ecclesiast. hierarch. cap. 7. speaking of infants, why they are baptised: hereof (saith he) we say those things, which our divine masters 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. being instructed by the old tradition, have brought unto us. By the which words, the man at unawares hath showed that he learned not not of the Apostles. For Christ himself instructed the Apostles of baptism: they had it not from old tradition. Hart. That is a weak conjecture why he should be a counterfeit. For he might call the tradition of the Apostles, old tradition: though it were but certain years or months before him. Rainoldes. Hardly: if he lived in the same time with them. But if he might; yet could he not say that the Apostles were instructed by the old tradition of the Apostles. Belike his masters were younger men. Hart. Our conjectures may deceive us: we must not trust them in such matters. The Fathers count him the right Denys. For, g Orat. in Nativitat. Christi. Gregory Nazianzen, h Homil. 2. inter homil. in varios locos novi Testament. Origen, i Ad Sergium Pat●iar. Constantinop. Sophronius, k Ad Constantin. Heracl. & Tiber. August. Agatho, l De orthod. fid. lib. 1. cap. 12. & lib. 2. cap. 18. Damascene, m In Panoplia part. 1. tit. 2. Euthymius, and others do name him Dionysius Areopagita, when they cite things that are in him. Rainoldes. Gregory Nazianzen doth praise a 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. certain autour, whom he nameth not. It is but n Budae. in commentar. linguae Graec. one man's guess, that he meaneth Denys. An o Nicet. comment in Grego. Nazianzen. other saith, (which is * Gregor. Nazianz. orat. in laudem Athan. more likely,) that he meaneth Athanasius. Origen is ancient: if he had cited Denys, Denys must be elder a hundred years or two, than I do judge him by his countenance. But that work of Origen, in which you find him cited, can not be Origens'. For in it the Manichees are mentioned, and Arians: the names of which heretics did rise a good while after Origen was dead. So that, when this Origen is brought to clear that Denys: a thief is brought to clear a thief. The rest, whom you allege, Sophronius, Agatho, Damascene, and Euthymius, are of later years, and such as might easily think him to be Denys who called himself so. Many honest men p Polyd▪ Virgil. hist. Ang. lib. ●● did think Perkin Warbeck to be Richard Duke of York, King Edward the fourths son, as he professed himself to be: though in deed he was a counterfeit. Hart If you may reject an autour as counterfeit, against so great consent of writers: any ancient Father may be refused for a rascal. Rainoldes. If you may allow a counterfeit, as lawful, because that many think well of him: every Perkin Warbeck may be received for Duke of York. Hart. Nay, there was sure proof that he could not be the Duke. For the Duke was killed with the Prince his brother in the Tower ofLondon by Richard the usurper, ten years before men heard of Perkin. Rainoldes. There is surer proof, that he, whose cause you plead, cannot be Dionysius Areopagita. Hart. What? Such as q Annot in c. 17. A●t Apost. Erasmus and q Annot in c. 17. A●t Apost. Valla bring, that jerom and others do not mention him? Rainoldes. That, as light as you make it, did move Cardinal q Annot in c. 17. A●t Apost. Caietan to doubt of the man. But the proof that I meant, is such as yours against Perkin: to weet that Dionysius Areopagita was dead many years, before the works, which bear his name, could be written. For there is cited in r De divin. nomin●b. cap. 4. them a saying of Ignatius, out of an epistle which he wrote (to the Romans) as he was going to suffer martyrdom s Eusebius in Chronico. in the time of trajan the Emperor. Now Dionysius died t Methodius in martyrio Dionys. A●eopag. in the time of Domitian, certain years before. And u Ignat. epist. ad Ephesios'. when Ignatius wrote it, Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus, who succeeded Timothee. Your x Dionys. Areop. episcopus Athenarum ad Timotheum episcopum Ephesi. counterfeit allegeth it to Timothee Bishop of Ephesus, either after his decease, or before it was written. Moreover, the Christians in Dionysius time made their assemblies to prayer, both in such places, and with such simplicity, as y Act. 1.13. & 12.12. & 20.8. the Apostles did, and times of persecution suffered. But when your counterfeit wrote, they had solemn temples like the temple of the jews: & the z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Dionys. epist. ad Demophilum. Chancel severed with such sanctification from the rest of the Church, that it was not lawful for monks to enter thereinto, much less for other laymen. Again a Dionys ecclesiast. hietarc. c. 6. the moonkes also were risen when he wrote, and they of credit in the Churches, and many ceremonies to hollow them. Which in the time of the Apostles, when Dionysius lived, were not heard of yet: for any thing that can be proved by monuments of antiquity. Hart. What? not moonkes? Why, Philo maketh mention of them, as b Hist. eccles. l. 2. c. 17. Eusebius showeth. And c Eusebius in Chronico. Philo did flourish under Caius the Emperor, even in the prime of the Apostles. Rainoldes. That, which Philo writeth, he writeth not of Christian moonkes, but jewish Essees, as d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. De vita contemplatiu. &, Quód quisque probus, liber. himself showeth. Eusebius was deceived. And if you think that you have me at an advantage, in that I do deny Eusebius: I shall have you at the same; unless you will deny him of whom you make greater account, even Thomas of Aquine. For e Thom. Aquin. quodlib. 7. art. ●7. resp. ad 4. argumentum. he saith of the same time of which Philo wrote, that there was not then Aliqui religio●● determinati. any certain sort of religious men. But, to leave the proofs which touch other matters, or stand on men's conjectures, or you may have some colour of exception against: I will prove him a counterfeit by the same point for which you alleged him; and that by demonstration out of the holy scriptures; and that by the confession of your Rhemists themselves. You alleged him as a witness of the assumption of the blessed virgin. Himself saith that Timothee came with him together, and many of their holy brethren, to behold her body. The scriptures show that f Act 9.5. Paul was not converted to Christ, till after Christ's ascension. When he was converted, g Gal. 1.18. he stayed three years in Damascus and Arabia, before h Act. 9.26. he came to jerusalem. Thence i Gal. 1.21. he went into the coasts of Syria and Cilicia, k Act 13.4. and the countries there about. And l Gal. 2 1. fourteen years after he came again to jerusalem, with Barnabas, m Act. 15.4. to the Council. From the Council n Act. 16.1. he went to Derbe, and Lystrae: where he received Timothee. And having travailed through Phrygia, Galatia, Mysia, Macedonia, he came at last to Athens, where o Act. 17.34. he converted Denys the Areopagite. So that it was seventeen or eighteen years at least after Christ's ascension, before S. Denys knew Christ. New, the blessed virgin died the fifteenth year after Christ's ascension, as your Rhemists put: who yet take the largest time ofher life; for p Marian. Scotu● Chron. l. 2. Nicephorus hist. ecclesiast. l. 2. c. 3. ex ●uodio. other stories make it shorter. S. Denys therefore could not be one of the brethren who came together to be present at her death and funeral. And all this is granted and proved by your Rhemists: though they thought not ofit. For, in their q After the Acts of the Apostles. table of S. Paul, they show that it was the one and fiftieth year of Christ, when he converted S. Denys the Areopagite; and in their r Annot. upon the Act. 1.14. tale of the virgin they reckon her to be assumpted the eight & fortieth year of Christ. Wherefore you do us great injury, to say, that we deny S. Denys to have written those works because he giveth testimony for the Catholic faith in most things now controversed. For, that which we deny, is, in respect of the truth, because indeed he wrote them not. But, in respect of his testimony for the Catholic faith, I wish that I might grant with a safe conscience that he wrote them. He is so plain against the most of your heresies: chief the Pope's supremacy. Hart. Neither is that an heresy, nor is he against it: nay he is plain for it. For s Dionys. de dipsin. nom. c. 3. he saith (as yourself rehearsed out of him) that Peter is the chief and ancientest top of the Apostles. Rainoldes. But he saith farther, that, t Eccles. hierar. cap. 7. for as much as the scriptures say to Peter, Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt lose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. therefore he, and (accordingly to him) every Bishop doth admit the godly, and disinherit the godless, by declaring the sentence and administering the word of God. And this doth pluck up the Pope's supremacy by the roots. For your u Francis. Sansovin. de regnis & rebusp. l. 11. Saunder. de visib. monar. eccles. lib. 7. masters ground it on that charge of binding and losing given Peter: as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope. Denys saith the contrary, that it is common to all Bishops. Whereby you may perceive beside, that if the title which he giveth Peter did prove his supremacy, though x Chapt. 5. Diuis. 3. I have showed it doth not, but if it did: yet your common reason, from Peter's supremacy to the Popes, is jointlesse. For he, who calleth Peter, chief of the Apostles, yet maketh Bishops equal; and giveth Rome no greater privilege, than Antioch, or jerusalem. But to knit up that which brought us unto this of Denys: you see that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrary to the scriptures. Yet they do believe it for the authority of Fathers. That I might doubt justly whether you would believe the Fathers in those things, in which they are convicted of error by the scriptures. Hart. I cannot believe that the scriptures are against it. For the Church doth hold it: I mean the Catholic Church of Rome. Rainoldes. In that your Rhemists lavish too. For though the lying Greeks (as your y Praefat. in Censuram D. H●ssels de historiis Sanctorum. Molanus calleth them,) z Simeon Metaphrastes, de vita & dormit. S. Mariae. Nicephorus, hist. eccles. l. 2. c. 21.22. & 23. Michael Synge●us in Dionysii en com●o. do vouch it very boldly: yet a Ado Trevir. in Martyrolog. Fulbert. Serm. 83. in append. D. August. Tom. 30. Beleth. in explicat. divinor. officior. cap. 146. the Latin writers do say it is uncertain. Yea the very b Vsuard. Martyrolog. Aug. 15. martyrologue of the Roman Church affirmeth, that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Mary's death: but where it hath pleased God to hide her body, 1 Sobrietas ecclesiae. the Church's sobriety hath chosen rather to be ignorant thereof religiously, then to hold and teach 2 Frivolum & apocryphum. some frivolous thing & forged. How much the more shameful is the misdemeanour, first, of c Richard Bristol. Motiu. 32. a Papist, who saith that it is certain she was assumpted by death, not only in soul, but in body also: then, of d Pius the fifth. in praefat. Bre●●ar-Roman. the Pope, who, setting forth his new Portesse, saith that those things which are uncertain, are put out: where this is left in, which they can not deny themselves to be uncertain. But your Rhemists pass. Who, as though the Por●esse were not bold enough in alleging Damascene, e For Damascene saith, The Angel's song almost three days: the Portesse, three whole days. Damascen, The rest of the Apostles would show to one of them (who was absent) the body: the Portesse, Thomas (who was absent) would worship the body. though it mend his tale with more than one lie: they take that which their Portesse doth tell them, lie and all, and father it upon S. Denys, that it may have the greater credit. Hart. Our Rhemists will render good account (I doubt not) of this which they have written, when they shall hear what is said against it. And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conversion, which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disprove the story avouched of his presence at the departure of our Lady: I must refer to them. For I myself know not indeed how to accord it. But why do you press that point about the Fathers, touching their overseeing either the words, or meaning, or consequent of the scriptures? We are passed the scriptures, and proofs that the Fathers do gather out of them. Rainoldes. But if they may gather amiss out of the scriptures, and overshoot themselves in the word of God: they may be deceived in the word of man too, and either not conceive well, or not remember well, or not conclude well of it. Which happened to S. jerom in that same point, that I reproved a little rather in Eusebius. For f Hieron. de scriptorib. ecclesiast. verbo Philo. he, reckoning Philo the jew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers, doth it (he saith) for this reason, because Philo writing a book touching the first Church planted by the Evangelist S. Mark in Alexandria, hath praised the Christians: reporting them to be not only there but in many countries, and calling their dwelling places, Monasteries. Whereby it is apparent that the Church of believers in Christ, at the first, was such as moonkes endeavour and seek to be now, that nothing is any man's own in propriety, none is rich amongst them, none poor, their patrimonies are distributed to the needy, they give themselves wholly to prayer, and to singing of Psalms, and to learning, and to continency of life: such as S. g Act. 4.32. Luke also doth write, that the believers were first at jerusalem. And this book of Philo touching the life of our men, that is, of men Apostolic, is entitled of the contemplative life of men that pray, because they did contemplate (study, and meditate) heavenly things, and prayed to God always. Thus far S. jerom. Wherein, that the points of contemplation and prayer, being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church, did make him to mistake the one for the other, as likeness (they say) is the mother of error: but, that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that book, it may appear by four circumstances, of names, of deeds, of times, and of places. For they, of whom Philo doth write, were called Essees: which was a sect of jews, of whom 1 Philo in libr. quód quisque p●obus sit liber. some lived in action, and 2 Philo de vita contemplativa. some in contemplation. The Christians were never known by name of Essees, either contemplative or active. Again, they in Philo did leave their goods and substance to their sons, or daughters, or kinsmen, or if they had no kinsmen, to their friends. The Christians gave them to the poor, and such as stood in need of succour. Moreover the solemn day, which they in Philo did meet together publicly to hear the word of God taught, was the seventh day of the week: which was the Sabbat of the jews, the saturday as we call it. The Christians were wont to meet on h Act. 20.7. Cor. 16.2. the first day of the week, that is, i justin. mart. apolog. 2. ad Antoninum. sunday, k Re●. 1.10. the lords day as S. john termeth it. Finally, they, whom Philo discourseth of, did live in no town or city, but without, in gardens and solitary places. The Christians lived in cities. Even they who are namely mentioned by jerom, I mean the Christian Church placed by S. Mark in Alexandria, were planted l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Euseb. l. 2. c. 15. in the city Alexandria itself; whereas it is precisely noted by Philo, that his jewish moonkes did dwell m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. about it, and n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without it. Wherefore it is manifest that jerom did mistake, or had forgot, the words of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceived and remembered them: yet he thereof inferred amiss, that the moonkes in his time were such, as S. Luke doth write that the believers were first at jerusalem. For the believers at jerusalem might keep their own if they listed: as o Act. 5.4. Peter saith to Ananias; while it remained, pertained it not to thee? And when it was sold, was it not in thine own power? But p Epist. 1. ad Heliodorum. jerom saith that his monks may not have propriety in any thing of their own. Beside, the moonkes of jerom did live in continency. The believers at jerusalem had wives, & used them: for any thing that S. Luke showeth. Though▪ by the way to note the difference between the jewish moonkes & the Christian, (who else would be too like:) q Athanas. in epistola ad Dracontium. some of the Christian monks in jeroms time had wives & did beget children; which I have not read that any of the jewish did. Last of all, the moonkes whom jerom doth mean (as he must needs by Philo) were r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hieron. epist. 1. ad Heliodor. & 13. ad Paulin. moonkes according to their name, that is, * Eremitae, and not coenobitae. solitary, and not collegiate moonkes. But the believers at jerusalem, were at jerusalem, in a city, and lived in fellowship together. Do you not see that the Apostles and Apostolic men were not such as afterward the moonkes whom jerom meaneth: and therefore jerom was deceived? Hart. I will not believe on your word, that so worthy a Father was deceived. Rainoldes. If you will not on my word, I will bring his own word to make you believe it. For, s Epist. 13. ad Paulin. de institut. monachi. writing to Paulinus, touching the training up of moonkes, he saith that the Apostles and Apostolic men are not patterns for them to follow: but S. Antony, and others, who dwelled in fields and deserts. Hart. He saith, that the Apostles and Apostolic men are set for an example to Priests, and Bishops, not to moonkes. True: in some respects. And yet, me thinks too. But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceived so, through oversight? Rainoldes. If they might be deceived so through oversight: they might be deceived through affection also. For they were men, and subject to it. As t Epist. 73. ad jubaian. Cyprian, through too much hatred of heretics, condemned the baptism of heretics, as unlawful: wherein u Concil. Carthagin. episcopor. 87. sub Cypriano. a Council erred with him. As x Augustin▪ de civitat. Dei, lib. 21. cap. 17. Origen, through too much compassion of the wicked, thought that the devils them ●elues should be saved at length. As y Hieron. in Catalogue. script. eccles. verbo▪ Tertullianus. Tertullian, through spite of the Roman clergy, revolted to the Montanists: and z Tertul. de monogam. de jeiunio adversus. Psychicos. called the Catholics, carnal men, because they were not so precise as the Montanists in points of marriage and fasting. Hart. We condemn these errors in them, as well as you: and do therein except against them. Rainoldes. You do except also, I trow, (I am sure, a Canus loco●. Theolog. lib. 11. cap. 2. D. Hessels Censur. de hist. Sanctor. cap. 3. your Doctors do) against b Sermon. de defunctis in fid▪ Damascene, for his tale of Gregory the Pope and trajan the Emperor; that Gregory, while he went over the market place of trajan, did pray for Traian's soul to God; and behold, a voice from heaven, I have heard thy prayer and I pardon trajan: but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked. A very great affection to prayers for the dead, that moved Damascene to write this. For it is against the doctrine of the c Petr. Lombard. Sentent. lib. 4. distracted. 45. Thomas, Scotus, Bonavent. & caeteri scholast. in eas distinct. Schoolmen that prayers may help out the souls that are in hell. In Purgatory they say they may. Hart. d In 4. Sentent. dist. 45. quaest. 2. S. Thomas doth confirm the same. Yet he believeth that of Damascene. But he saith that Gregory did it by special privilege, which doth not break the common law. Rainoldes. But your e Locor. Theologic. l. 11. c. 2. Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then: beside that, he was greatly affected to Damascen. And Damascen might easily persuade a well willer: he doth affirm so lustily that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. all the east and west is witness that the thing is true. Which report of his yet Canus doth marvel at: sith it is unknown in all the Latin story. But f Locor. Theol. lib. 11. cap 6. Canus (as a man of better mind and sounder judgement than your Popish Doctors are, the most of them,) did wisely see & noteth freely, that not only later and less discreet authors (as he who made the golden legend,) but also grave, ancient, learned, holy Fathers have overshot themselves in writing miracles of Saints: partly while they fetched the truth, where it is seldom, 1 Ex dissipatis pervagatisque rumoribus. from common rumours and reports; partly while 2 Indulserunt fidelium vulgo. they sought to please the people's humour, and thought it lawful for historians to write things as true which commonly are counted true. Of this sort he nameth 3 Gregorius in Dialogis. Gregory and 4 Beda in historia Anglorum. Bede: the one for his Dialogues, the other for his English story. He might have named Damascene with them. Unless he meant him rather perhaps to be of that sort which did not only take by hearsay of others, but coined lies themselves too: & wrote those things of Saints 5 Quae animus scribentis dictat. which their fancy liked, though neither true nor likely. As that S. Francis 6 Pediculos semel excussos in seipsum soli●itum esse immittere. was wont to take lise that were shaken off, and put them on himself, it was a lousy trick, and S. Francis did it not: but the writer thought it an argument of his holiness. Likewise, that when the devil troubled S. Dominike, S. Dominike constrained 7 Diabolum, ut haberet lucernam in manibus him to hold a candle in his hands, till the candle being spent did put him to great grief, in burning his fingers. Such examples there are innumerable: but these two may give a taste of their affection who have defiled the stories of Saints with filthy fables. Yet out of such stories many things are read in your church-service. And g Locor. Theolog. l. 11. c. 5. Canus although he confess it, as evident: notwithstanding, (which is strange) he thinketh them unwise Bishops, who seek to reform it. For while they cure the nailesore (saith he) they hurt the head: that is, in steed of counterfeits they bring in grave stories; but they change the service of the Church so far, that scarce any 8 Forma antiquae religionis. show of the old religion is remaining in it. A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reform. For though they have removed some of those stories, which Canus saith are 9 Incerta, apocrypha, levia, falsa. uncertain, forged, frivolous, and false: yet have they done it sparingly. If they should have left out all those legend-toyes: their Portesse had been like our book of common prayer, which heretics would have laughed at: and there had remained no show in a manner of the old religion, save that their service is in Latin. Hart. These things are impertinent, but that it pleaseth you to play the Hickescorner with the holy Portesse. For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life? or S. Dominikes? or the golden legend, that old motheaten book (as D. h In the D●●ection lib. 4. Harding calleth it,) of the lives of saints? I mind not to press you with things of later writers, but of old and ancient: whom Canus judgeth better of, then of the younger. For i Locor. Theolog. l. 11. c. ●. he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis, and Antoninus, that they cared not so much to write things true and certain, as to let go nothing that they found written in any papers whatsoever. But of Bede, and Gregory, he judgeth more softly: and rather excuseth them then reproveth them. Though, judge he how he listed, he was but one Doctor: and other learned men perhaps mislike his judgement, both for younger and elder writers. Rainoldes. They who deal with taming of lions (I have read) are wont, when they find them somewhat out of order, to beat dogs before them: that in a dog the lion may see his own desert. Even so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life, or of S. Dominic'S, or of the motheaten book as you call it, * james the Archbishop o● Genua in Italy. though he who wrote it was an Archbishop, & in his time a man of name, and his book a legend, read publicly in Churches, and called golden for the excellency; but when I rebuke that motheaten writer, or Antoninus (if you will,) and Vincentius Beluacensis, who are as good as he well-nigh: you must not think I do it for the dogs sake, but for the lions rather, I mean the ancient writers who deserve rebuke too. For, as not k De divin. office l. 7. c. 15. Rupertus only, but l Oper. Pascal. lib. 5. Sedulius, do write that our Saviour after his resurrection appeared first to the blessed virgin, which is false, but they thought through an affection to her, that he should have done so: in like sort a loving affection to saints hath transported sundry, not only later writers, but ancienter also from the truth to fancies. Gelasius, and the seventy Bishops, who were assembled in a Council with him, were assembled about eleven hundred years ago. Yet even then how many stories of the Saints were set abroad with forged fables? almost a whole bead-roale, m c. Sancta Romana. distinct. 15. condemned by the Council. Whereof that some were coined upon that affection, as some upon others: one of them, entitled n Liber Actuum Teclae & Pauli. the acts of Paul and Tecla, may serve for an example. These acts contained a story (supposed to be omitted in the o The fourteenth chapter of the Acts. acts of the Apostles) how that when S. Paul did preach at Iconium, Tecla a maiden betrothed to a gentleman, hearing him preach of maidenhood, forsook her husband by and by, and went away with him: and thereupon was persecuted, and delivered from great dangers, and wrought many miracles, and travailed through sundry countries with S. Paul. Which though it be a lewd tale, agreeing neither with p Act. 16.2. & 17.14. & 18.1. and so forth. the circumstance of S. Paul's story, nor with his q 1. ●or. 7.13. doctrine and r 1. Cor. 9.5. discretion: yet was it published as true, and that in the Apostles age, s Hieron. de scriptorib. ecclesiast. verbo Lucas, ex Tertulliano. by an Elder, or Priest, (as you would term him,) who was convicted by S. john, and confessed that he wrote it for * Amore Pauli. good will that he bore to Paul. Such a credit (belike) he thought it would be to S. Paul, that a maid betrothed to a man of wealth and worship, (and so Matt. 1.20. his wife by right,) should forsake her husband and go away with him. Wherefore, though you mind not to press me with things of later writers, but of old & ancient, as you say: yet was it not impertinent to mention your Portesse and stories of the like authority. For neither do I know what number of years you will think sufficient to prove a writer old: and though you account none old, but such as lived many hundred years since; yet are their fables in your Portesse (as namely u Thamiride sponso relicto. In Breviar. Roman. edit. a Pi● quinto. In festis Septembr. this of Tecla) even out of them also. Yea the most of those things, not only this of Tecla, but the most of those things which Gelasius Bishop of Rome, and the Council, condemned for unsound: I say, the most of those things are rehearsed in your legends, and in the most of your Portesses. Which thing I affirm not of mine own knowledge, for I have not seen so many sorts of Portesses that I can vouch it of the most: but x Comment. in 2. epist. ad Timoth. c. 4. Digress. 21. Claudius Espencaeus, a Doctor of Paris, an eager enemy of Beza (, the worthier of credit herein,) affirmeth it, and he affirmeth it with great asseveration that it is so 1 Indubié. undoubtedly. Nor doth he touch them only for these so ancient lies, but for many more, which are of less ancienty, and that upon the judgement of sundry learned men, and not his private fancy. For he allegeth y Petr. Abb. Cluniac. l. 5. c. 29. Peter, a venerable Abbot, (who lived four hundred years ago,) saying, that the songs and hymns of the Church had very many toys: as namely an hymn in the praise of S. Benet; in the which, though reading it over somewhat hastily, and staying not to search all, yet he found 2 Mendacia ad minus viginti quatuor. at least four and twenty lies. He allegeth an other z Petr. Pictavensis epist. 31. Peter complaining likewise and reproving a false and fond hymn in the praise of S. Mawre running upon the waters. He allegeth the a Petr. de Aliaco Cardinal. d● reformat. eccles. consideration. 3. Cardinal of Aliacoes advise to the Council of Constance, for order to be taken that 3 Scripturae apocryphae. In Picus they are called apocryphaenugae. unsound writings (corrupt and peevish pamphlets) be not read in the church-service. He allegeth the oration of the b johan. Francis. Pici orat. de moribus reformandis a● Concil. Later. sub. Leone 10. Earl of Mirandula to Pope Leo the tenth, and the Council of Lateran, renewing the Cardinal of Aliacoes advise. He allegeth c Comment. urbanor. l. 16. Raphael Volaterran, a great historian, if not a divine, bewailing the case that in the daily prayers there are 4 Aperta mendacia. manifest lies read. He allegeth d Quodlibet. 6. Adrian (who afterward was Pope Adrian the sixth) misliking 5 Superstitiosa figmenta. superstitious forgeries in holy matters. In a word, he saith that the Catholics may lament in the behalf of the Church, as e Lament. 2. 1● jeremy lamented in the behalf of the Synagogue, Thy prophets have seen 6 Falsa & stul●●ta. false and foolish things for thee: and he addeth that the grief which he doth feel and open for these 7 toys & dotages crept into the public service of the Church, is common unto him with all good men for the most part. Wherein, as his desire and zeal of reformation is greater than Canus, who would not have this filth swept out of the Portesses: so dealeth he more freely and frankly with your church's legends too, then Canus. For, letting go the scurf of the golden legend, and Antoninus, and Vincentius, he reproveth the story of Saints which was compiled of late by f Petr. de Natalibus Episcopi Equilin. catalogus Sanctorum. a Venetian, a Bishop of account, and saith that no stable is ●o full of dung, as that is of fables. Yea farther, that Simeon Metaphrastes (a great man in the new legends of g Aloys. Lipom. de Sanctor. historiis Tom. 5.6. & 7. Lipomanus, and h Laurent. Sur. de probatis Sanctorum histo riis. Surius,) and Vsuardes martyrologue, (which is the Church of Rome's legend,) besides the Martyrologes of certain other writers, 1 Multis scaten● quisquiliis. are fraught with much baggage. Now, to this Parisian Doctor Espencaeus, and the authors whom he allegeth, you may add the king's professors and chiefest Doctors of Lovan, (if you desire more witnesses,) even Hessels, and Molanus. Of whom, i Censura johannis Hessels in librum qui in scribitur Passionale de Sanctis per annum. the one, writing a Censure on a story called the Passionall of saints, condemneth much thereof, and enditeth more, with this verdict, k 1. Thess. 5.21. Try all things, hold that which is good: the other, l johann. Molanus praefat. in ●esselii Censuram. setting forth and commending that Censure, saith it is no marvel if in that Passionall there be corrupt stories, sith the stories which the Catholics of that country found amongst 2 Mendaces Graecos. the lying Greeks might easily come into it. Molanus layeth the fault upon the lying Greeks, as they deserve it best indeed. Notwithstanding it appeareth by * Namely by S. jerom, Sedulius, Rupertus, ●ames the Archbishop of Genua, Pope Adrian the ●●rst, and Vsuarde. In Censura Hess. & praefation. in Vsuardum. some, whom either Hes●els or himself have censured, that not the Greeks alone are faulty. And sundry Greeks are faulty whom he would be loath to call lying Greeks: as namely Nicephorus, & Simeon Metaphrastes, of the newer writers; & of the ancienter, Palladius, and Cassianus. Of all whom m Praefat. in Martyrologium Vsuardi c. 20. excus. Lovan. ● 568. Molanus hath given this note, that most learned men do judge them 3 Non satis probatae autoritatis. not worthy to be greatly credited. Whereby you may see that the judgement of Canus, touching the stories of Saints, is more a great deal then one Doctor's judgement. Howbeit, if so many were not of his mind: yet should you do him wrong to cast him off as one Doctor. For himself allegeth the testimony of a Doctor as good as any that I have named: I mean that worthy man n De tradendis discipline. l. 5. Ludovicus vives. Who lamenting that the stories of heathen captains and philosophers are written so notably, that they are like to live for ever; but the lives of Apostles, of Martyrs, of Saints, the acts of the Church both in the spring and growth of it, are covered with great darkness, and lie unknown in a manner: for those things (saith he) which are written of them are (a few excepted) 4 Multis commentis foeda●a. defiled with many fables, while he that writeth them doth follow his own affection, & telleth not what a Saint hath done, but what he would have had him done, so that the writer's fancy and not the truth doth pen the story. Yea, some have thought it a point of great godliness 5 Mendaciol● pro religione confingere. to coin pretty lies, that thereby men's devotion might be stirred up. Some have thought it a point of great godliness, saith vives: but will you know of what godliness? There is a mystery in y●, which Vi●es doth not open: Canus doth open it. For o Loc●r. Theolog. l. 11. c. 6. he saith that they, who feign and forge in writing ecclesiastical stories, devise their whole matter either to error or to gain, S. Paul hath forewarned us of a kind of men, p 1. Tim. 6.5. which think that gain is godliness. Your Church, M. Hart, hath had many minions, who of a zeal to this godliness have not only written, but wrought miracles too. You remember q In the Apocrypha of Daniel. chapped 14. the tale of Bel and the Dragon. A r Nicol. Lira 〈◊〉 Dan. 14. 2●. friend of yours entreating thereof, doth report, that as the Priests of Babylon did abuse the people in the Dragon's worship, so even in the Church the people sometimes is shamefully deceived with miracles wrought either by Priests, or by their adherents, for gain and lucre's sake. Hart. If any do so, we allow not of it: and there is order taken by s Session. 25. decret. depurgator. & sequent. the Council of Trent against such abuses. But what is this to the Portesse? or rather to the Pope's supremacy? Chief, sith I mind not to allege any thing out of the Portesse for it? Rainoldes. I was afraid you would. You are a man a● likely (for aught that I know) to do it for the Pope's supremacy, as your Rhemists to do it for the assumption of the virgin. Though my meaning was not so much of your Portesse, as of Portesse-like writers, by whom I fell into your Portesse. But ●f you mind not to allege any thing out of the Portesse for it: than you will not bring those miracles which are fathered t In bre●iatri● secundum vsu●● Sar●m. upon S. Thomas of Canterbury. Aqua Thomae quinquies varians colorem, In las semel transijt, quater in cr●orem. Ad Thomae memoriam quater lux descendit, Et in sancti gloriam cereos accendit. The water of Thomas did five times change her colour, Once it was turned into milk, and four times into blood. At Thomas his monument four times there came down light, And in the honour of the Saint it kindled the tapers. Hart. I pray go to the purpose, and leave these idle fancies which you bring in to play with. There is no such thing in the Portesse now. And if it were: what is it to the point in question? Rainoldes. To the point in question, as direct as may be. For this Thomas died u Matt. Paris histor. Angl. in Henric. secund. upon occasion of a quarrel about the Pope's supremacy: while he maintained appeals (against the king) to the Pope. Now, to prove that he stood in defence of the truth, those miracles were wrought. For, that, which they preached who had the grace of miracles, was the truth, saith x Motiu. 6. Bristol: adding, that S. Thomas of Canterbury, S. Thomas of Aquine, S. Francis, S. Dominike, and infinite others had that grace, in such sort, that no man is able to put any difference between the miracles of Christ with his Apostles, and of these men. Yet welfare their hearts who reform your Portesse. For they have put out those miracles of S. Thomas of Canterbury, and many others: which they would not have done, (I trow,) had they not known some difference between the miracles of these men, and the miracles of Christ. But they have left in as worthy a miracle, as those, of an other of Bristow'S miracle-workers, even of S. Thomas of Aquine: and (I hope) you will not call that an idle fancy; though it be as idle with me, as the former. For y Breviar. Rom. in festo S. Tho. Aquinat. they report of him, that when he was praying earnestly at Naples before the image of the crucifix, he heard a voice ( * Antonin. hist. part. 3. tit. 23. cap. 7. the crucifix spoke it) saying to him, 1 Bene scripfisti de me Thoma. Thomas, thou hast written well of me, Thomas. I should have thought (for my part) that the wooden crucifix of a loving thankful hart, had commended him, because he did honour it with the fame honour that is due to God, and z Thom. Aquin. Summ. Theolo. part. 3. quaest. 25. artic. 4. writeth solemnly that men ought to do so. But Pope a In eclog▪ bullar. & motu proprior. Pij. quint. Pius the fifth, the Lorde-reformer of the Portesse, affirmeth, that 2 Scripto●is An gelici doctrina salvatoris crucifixi or ● mirabiliter probata. the doctrine of Thomas was approved by the mouth of the crucifix himself in this miracle. And he knew best the meaning ofit. So that I perceive this miracle was rather a dogmatical miracle (as b Motiu. 5. Bristow ●ermeth it) then personal. But whether personal, or dogmatic: it shall not persuade me that all is true▪ which is written and taught by your dogmatical Doctor Thomas. For (as Chapt. 5. Divis. 2 I have showed) he forgeth and belieth the Fathers notably, in the defence of the Pope's supremacy against the Grecians. I can hardly think, that, when the crucifix said Thomas had written well, it meant to approve his writing in that point. Or if the crucifix meant it, the crucifix was to blame: unless the fault were rather in some lying knave, who spoke out of the crucifix. Such d Rufin. hist. ecclesiast. lib. ●. cap. 25. feats there have been wrought in images ere now. Hart. Evil minds turn all things to the worst. Pope Pius the fifth doth say of that miracle, that it 3 Sicutipia testatur historia. is recorded in a godly story. Rainoldes. But, in what story, Pope Pius doth not say. Belike he meaneth Antoninus: of whom you know what Canus judgeth; and his judgement therein is good. Hart. Yet you can not deny but that Antoninus reporteth many true things. And why may not that miracle (I pray) be one of them? Rainoldes. A lying miracle, no doubt, as e Histor. part. 3. tit. 22. cap. 7. ●. 11. Antoninus reporteth it. For he saith that when Thomas was commanded by Pope Gregory to come unto the Council of Lions, and to bring with him that book which he had made by Pope Vrbanes commandment against the errors of the Grecians, whereof in that Council they were to be convicted: before he went thither, that voice was heard out of the crucifix, by certain who watched Thomas, as he was praying, on a certain night, in S. Dominic'S coovent-church. I say nothing here of the suspicious circumstances, the time, the night season; the place, the coovent-church; the witnesses, lying in wait; the cause, to prove that which should be handled for the Pope against the Grecians in the Council. Only this I say, that seeing in that book (against the errors of the Grecians) Thomas doth falsify the writings of S. cyril, and of above six hundred Fathers, even the general Council of Chalcedon, to make them bear witness for the Pope's supremacy: the miracle pretended to have declared, as from heaven, that Thomas did well in handling so the cause of Christ, was a lying miracle▪ lying, in respect of the form, or of the end; I mean, as either wrought by deceit, or to deceit; by deceit, ifmen did counterfeit the voice; to deceit, if they heard it miraculously in deed. As it is written touching the man of sin, that f 2. Thess. 2. ver. ●. his coming is according to the working of Satan with all power, and with lying signs and wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness among them that perish, because they received not the love of truth that they might be saved. Take heed, M. Hart, lest that which followeth be verified in you, g ver. 11. Therefore shall God send them strong delusion to believe lies, that all they may be damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Hart. Take heed unto yourself, M. Rainoldes, that you offend not in this unrighteousness, by abusing that famous Doctor of the Church, S. Thomas of Aquine. For h Bulla Pij quinti super celebratione festi●itatis Angelici Doctoris S. Thomae de Aquino. the holy Father Pope Pius the fifth hath honoured his memory with a double greater feast in his country, and with a double feast throughout all Christendom, to be kept as solemnly as the holy days of the four Doctors of the Church are kept. Wherefore you ought to think so much the more reverently of all that he hath written, and not to charge him with forging and falsifying, if he have miss aught: but rather to suppose that if the authors have not that which he allegeth, yet he had read it alleged by some other, and of a good affection to the See of Rome he thought it to be rightly alleged, and wrote it. Rainoldes. Of a good affection. As you will. Let it be so. He, with such dealing of a good affection, hath feasted the Pope: and the Pope again of a good affection hath double feasted him. But you grant then that Doctors of the Church may be deceived, as through oversight, so through affection too: and that these exceptions against them are lawful. Hart. Lawful, if you prove that they be so deceived. For they may be, I grant. Rainoldes. What? And may they not be deceived also, or rather seem to be deceived through the affection or oversight of other men? Hart. Of other men? How? Rainoldes. As when a Greek writer is translated into Latin, the translator maketh him sometimes to say that which he never meant. And before printing, the scriveners, who copied out books with hand, committed sundry 'scapes. Which likewise befalleth unto printers now. So there may be a fault in an autour without the authors fault, through oversight of printers, or scriveners, or translators. For example, in the story ecclesiastical of i Euseb. histor. eccles. l. 2. c. 1. Eusebius translated by Rufinus, it is alleged out of Clemens that Peter, james, & john, although Christ preferred them almost before all, yet they took not the honour of primacy to themselves, but ordained james (who was surnamed Just,) 1 Episcopum Apostolorum. Bishop of the Apostles. This had been a notable testimony for james, against the primacy of Peter. But k Chapt. 4. Division 2. I alleged it not: because as I seek to win you to the truth, so I seek to do it by true and right means. Whereof this were none, being an oversight (as it appeareth) of Rufinus. For in the Greek Eusebius, it is, that they ordained him 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bishop of jerusalem, not Bishop of the Apostles. Hart. That may be the printers faute, or the scriveners perhaps, who wrote it out: not his who translated it. Rainoldes. But I think it rather the translators fault. For Marianus Scotus doth cite out of Methodius the same touching james, that they ordained him Bishop of the Apostles. l Chron. lib. 2. Which (belike) was taken out of the story of Eusebius done into Latin by Rufinus. And he hath erred often in in turning Greek writers: as also his translation of josephus showeth. Though I may not charge him with all the faults therein. For where it is avouched by m Sixt. Senen. biblioth. sanct. lib. 1. some that josephus holdeth the books of Maccabees to be holy scripture, as in deed he seemeth to do * In calce lib. de Maccabaeis. in the Latin: in the Greek he saith not any such thing, nay n josephus adversus Apion. lib. 1. he doth teach the contrary; but it is unlikely this came from Rufinus, o Rufin. exposit. Symb. Apost. who held himself the Maccabees not to be canonical. Howbeit if you say that the Greek copy which he translated of Eusebius, had that word amiss through the scriveners fault: I will not strive against you. But a more certain example of the faultiness in scriveners first, and printers after, is found in p Libr. 2. Optatus: in that he affirmeth, Peter was called Cephas because he was head of the Apostles; Apostolorum caeput Petrus, unde & Cephas appellatus est. Upon the which place q Fran. Balduin. Annot. in Optat. your lawyer doth note, that where he had thought it to be an oversight of a man dreaming that the Syriake word, which singifieth a stone, is the Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which signifieth a head: now he guessed rather that the words [unde & Cephas appellatus est,] were some foolish gloze, written rashly in the margin, and then interlaced into the text by scriveners. Hart. Like enough. But you have no harm by this gloze. For though you blot it out, yet Optatus saith that Peter was head of the Apostles. Rainoldes. Neither have we any harm by that text. For I have showed r Chapt. 5. Division 3. before it maketh nought for the Papacy. But we may have harm by that kind of gloss: chiefly sith (as s In Augustinum de ciui●. Dei l. 22. c. 8. vives observeth on S. Austin, upon the like occasion) some glosers have defiled all the writings of noble authors with such unclean handling of them. Hart. Will you make an end of excepting against the Fathers: and let us hear at length the Fathers speak themselves? Rainoldes. The fathers themselves? With a very good will. But look that you bring me the Fathers themselves. For, (which is my last exception, and so an end,) there are many books entitled to Fathers which the Fathers made not: nay whereof sundry were made by such youths, as are not worthy to bear the Father's shoes. The works of S. jerom are abroad in nine volumes: of the which nine as good as three are none of his. And yet Vitae patrum, (a legend, how wrongfully fathered on S. jerom your t Comment. in epist. 2. ad Tim. cap. 4. Espencaeus & u Locor. Theologic. l. 11. c. 6. Canus show,) is not amongst them. Though there are amongst them slips of the same tree: 1 Fabula insul●a aeque acbarbara. a barbarous and sottish fable (as Canus calleth it) of the nativity of S. Marry, and 2 Huius generis sunt ali● multa. many other treatises of the same kind, which Erasmus hath refuted * Diligentissimé & rectissimé. most diligently & rightly. The works of S. Austin have not been tampred with, so much, in this sort. Notwithstanding there is not above one or two of his ten volumes, that hath not more or fewer such pamphlets patched to it. Not only by the judgement and censure of Erasmus, which yet you see how Canus esteemeth in S. jerom: but also of the Lovanists, whose censures are the censures of many of your best Divines; and x Censura Theologorum Louanien●●um in appendice ●omi secundi & caeterorum Augustini. they show that sundry things bear S. Augustine's name, whereof some are unlearned, some lewd, and heretical. But what do I speak of jerom and Austin? when there is scarce any amongst all the Fathers that hath not been abused so. The Friar (whom y Princip. doctrine. l. 9 c. 14. Stapleton doth commend greatly for diligence, and judgement,) z Sixtus Senen sis de falsa librorum inscriptione. Sixtus Senensis hath written a discourse touching the false entitling of books, whence it cometh, and how to find it out. Therein he hath proved that books are fathered falsely, not only upon Austin and jerom, whom I named, but also upon Ambrose, Cyprian, Athanasius, Eusebius Emisenus, junilius, cyril, Eucherius, Arnobius, yea Thomas of Aquine too. With this discourse he closeth up the former volume of a Bibliothec● sanctae l. ●. & 4. his holy library: in which he hath showed that Clemens, Abdias, Origen, Chrysostom, Hippolytus, & many more have had their names defaced with the same injury. Hart. There are many books entitled to the Fathers falsely, we confess. I will not bring them in, to witness against you: or if I do, you may refuse them lawfully. Rainoldes. Then you will not bring in b Apostol hist. lib. 1. the story of Abdias, to prove that Peter gave the whole power to Clemens which Christ had given him. Or if you do, you licence me to refuse him, as freely as c Chap. 6. Division 4. I refused his cousin Clemens in the same point. Neither will you bring d Comment▪ in Psalm. 106. Arnobius on the Psalms, to prove that who so goeth out of Peter's Church, shall perish, as doth e Prin●. doctr. l. 6. c. 15. Stapleton. Or, if you do, you licence me to refuse him, as not the man whom Stapleton would have him taken for. Hart. You may refuse Abdias. For Pope Paul the fourth rejected him amongst the books which he condemned: as f Biblioth. sanct● lib. 2. Sixtus recordeth. But Arnobius is an ancient writer indeed, & more worthy of credit. Rainoldes. More worthy of credit than Abdias, I grant. But he is not that * Vetustissimus scriptor. writer most ancient, whom Stapleton reporteth him to be. For g Hieron. de scriptorib. eccl. the most ancient Arnobius was elder (as h Biblioth. sanct. lib. 4. Sixtus also noteth) then that he might hear of i Histor. tripartit. l. 5. c. 5. the heresy of Photinus. Whereas k Commentar. in Psalm. 109. this Arnobius, who writeth on the Psalms, doth mention Photinus, and write by name against his heresy. Hart. Will you stand then to the judgement of Sixtus, which be the right and natural graffs of the Fathers, and which be bastard slips. Rainoldes. No. For though Sixtus did see many things, yet he saw not all: and others may see that which Sixtus oversaw. As, for example, there are two books touching the martyrdom of Peter and Paul, bearing the name of Linus, the first Bishop of Rome. These doth Bibliothe●. sanct● lib. 2. in verbit Paulus, Petr●●, Linus. Sixtus judge to have indeed been written by that ancient Linus, as m In fine commentarior. in Paulum. Faber also did before him. But n De continenti● l. 6. c. 2. Claudius Espencaeus doth marvel that Faber, a learned man, and witty, could be so persuaded: sith Peter in that story is made to withdraw the Roman wives & matrons from their husband's beds under pretence of chastity. Which unchristian doctrine, repugnant to the laws of godliness and honesty, neither was it possible that Peter should teach, neither is it likely that Linus should belie him with it. And thus you see an author disallowed by Espencaeus on very sound reason, whom Sixtus hath allowed of, not so discreetly. Hart. But if you thus allow and disallow whom you list: I may take pains in vain. For when I shall allege this or that Father speaking most expressly for the Pope's supremacy: you have your answer ready, that he was overseen through error, or overborne with affection, or if he wrote in Greek, he is mistranslated; or, if he wrote in Latin, he was miss written, or misseprinted; or if none of these will serve, it is a bastard falsely fathered on him. And whether your shifts be sufficient answers, yourself will be judge. Hart. Nay, not so neither. For what soever I answer, I will give reason of it. And whether my reasons be sufficient proofs: I will permit it (as I said) to the judgement of the jury, that is, of all indifferent men, who have skill to weigh the reasons that are brought, and conscience to give verdict according unto that they find. Which trial if you like off, as you seemed to do: then bring forth your witnesses, and let us hear now the Fathers speak themselves. Hart. Content. And I will ●irst begin with the Fathers of the Church of Rome, The third Division. even the ancient Bishops whom I alleged o In the 1. Division of this Chapter. before out of D. p Princ. doctr. l. 6. c. 15. Stapleton; namely Anacletus, Alexander the first, Pius the first, Victor, Zepherinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Melchiades, julius, and Dama●us. To whom I add also them whom you mentioned out of q Locor. Theolog. l. 6. c. 8. Melchior Canus: to weet, the two Sixti, with Eleutherius and Marcus. For though some of them maintain it as by scripture, some as by tradition: yet all agree in this that they maintain the Pope's supremacy. Rainoldes. In deed, though their heads be turned one from an other, yet their tails meet together with a firebrand betwixt them, as did r judg. 15.4. the foxes of Samson. But Samson had three hundred foxes: have you no more but these few? Hart. Foxes do you call those holy martyrs and Bishops? And will you still utter such blasphemous speeches, and set your mouth against heaven? Rainoldes. Against hell, M. Hart, and not against heaven. For I reverence the holy martyrs whom yo● named. But, foxes I call those beasts who wrote the things that Stapleton and Canus quote: most lewdly and injuriously to the martyrs and Bishops whom they are falsely fathered on, as I will prove. Which that I may do with lesser trouble, all in one: I would you brought the rest if you have any more of them. Hart. More? Why, all the Bishops of Rome from them forward, even till our age, have taught the same doctrine, as s Locor. Theologicor. lib. 6. c. 4. Canus declareth. For it is confirmed by Innocentius the first, in his epistles to the Counsels of Carthage and Milevis; by Leo in his epistles to Anastasius, and the Bishops of the province of Vienna; by Gelasius in his epistle 〈◊〉 Anastasius the Emperor, and in the decrees which he made with the seventy Bishops, and in his epistle to the Bishops of Dardania; by Vigilius in his decrees, the last chapter of them; by Pelagius the second, to the Bishops that were assembled in the city of Constantinople; by S. Gregory in his epistle to Austin the Bishop of the Englishmen; and by many other Popes whose testimonies are rehearsed in the decrees and decretals, in the twelfth distinction, and seventeenth, and ninetéenth, and twentieth, and one and twentieth and two and twentieth, and the eightieth distinction, in the canon beginning with the word Vrbes; and the ninety sixth distinction in the canon Bene; and in the four and twentieth cause, the first question, throughout many chapters; and in the five and twentieth cause, the first question; and in the title of election, in the chapter beginning with the word Significasti; and the title of privileges, the chapter Amiqua; and the title of baptism, the chapter Maiores; and the title of election in the sixth book of decretals, the chapter Fundamenta; and in the Extravagants, the constitution V●am sanctam; which extravagant constitution was renewe● 〈◊〉 approved by the Council of Lateran under Leo the tenth. So that you have not only the first Bishops of Rome, but all the successors of Peter in that See speaking with one consent for the Pope's supremacy, even a cloud of witnesses. Rainoldes. Not a cloud of witnesses such as t Heb. 12.1. the Apostle spoke off to the Hebrews. But such a cloud rather as u Rusin. hist. eccles lib. 1. cap. 3●. Athanasius meant: who when julian the Emperor had sent men of arms to spoil him of his life, and the faithful about him were sorry for it, and wept, Be not dismayed (saith he) my children; it is b●t a small cloud, and will pass over quickly. For this host of Popes which you have armed against us, may be sorted out into three companies. Whereof the first front, is, the names of them who lived three hundred years and upward after Christ: but the names only. For the writings savour as much of those Bishops, as scarecrows do resemble the strength of valiant men. The second front, are they who lived the next three hundred years, or there about. And the weapons (though not all) which they bear, are their own: but those which are their own, are not long enough to reach the supremacy; and that which they do reach they are to weak to win it. The third, is as it were the forlorn hope: the Popes which do follow the first and second front, in the vaward, as you would say. And they have best will, but can do least. For they are troubled so with care of the carriage, and their whole artillery of decrees, and decretals, and extravagants is so dull, that, if the former be discomfited, they have not power to strike a stroke. So that you see, the witnesses, which you have brought yet, are of no valour: have you any better? Hart. Nay stay, I pray, a little: and look ere you leap. Soft fire makes sweet malt. Your answer to the Popes whose authorities I cited doth stand on three points, according to three companies of them, as you sort them. The first, you say, are counterfeits, and most unlike those Bishops whose names they take upon them. The next avouch not the supremacy of the Pope: though they avouch more than is true, through affection. The last, through a regard of their own commodities, have spoken for themselves, and are unfit to witness in their own matter. Is not this your meaning? Rainoldes. Yes. But that which you apply to the last sort, that they are unfit to witn●●●●●o their own matter: I mean it of the second too. And if I thought that the first (which seem to have been counterfeited in the days of the third) had been counterfeited and coined by some ambitious Pope himself: I would use the same exception to them also. But in very truth I am not of opinion that any Pope himself did coin them. It was some cook rather or horsekeeper of the Popes: if I can guess aught by the style and Latin. Hart. I perceive that all which you have to say against the writings of the first sort, is that, which your x Eccl●s. histor. Magd●burg. Centur. 2.3 & 4. cap. 7. Centuries of Meydenburg have said. For this is their reason and they stand much upon it, that the style is bad, and the Latin barbarous. Which disproof is foolish and of no force: as Father y Francis. Turrian. advers. Magdeburg. Centuriat. pro epist. Pontific●● lib. 1. cap. 17. & lib. 2. cap. 1. & 2. Turrian showeth in his defence of the canons of the Apostles and of those epistles of the Popes, against the Centuries. For in style and Latin they might speak rudely, both to the intent that in things pertaining to the salvation of all even the simplest might understand them: and lest they should seem by choice of words to hunt for praise and vain glory. Yea, whereas the Centuries, in this point of style, do note the likeness of it too, as if that were a special mark to prove them counterfeit: therein they have betrayed most notorious folly. For the style is wont to be a certain token of the right autour (chief in some men's writings,) whereby we use often to try and discern a true book from a forged; as learned men have done in Austin, jerom, Ambrose, Cyprian, Tertullian, and others. But herein the trial is the unlikeness of the style, between an authors own work and a bastard fathered on him. Which trial can not be had in those epistles of the Popes, that are denied by the Centuries: because we have nothing written by those Popes, but only those epistles. Now see the blindness of heretics. When they can not disprove them by unlikeness of style, they say that the likeness of the style disproveth them: which is most ridiculous- Rainoldes. As Father Turrian dreamt. And as it is wont to fall out in dreams that sundry points of them are contrary one to another, and yet I know not how the dreamer imagineth that all do cleave together well: so fareth it with Turrian in his discourse touching the style against the Centuries. For what is the reason on the which z Pro epist. Ponti●. lib▪ ●. cap. 1. he saith that commonly the style is a sure token, and as it were a touchstone, whereby we may discern true books from forg●●●▪ Hart. Because that the style sometime is so peculiar to his own autour, that his work may thereby easily be known even by a man of mean judgement: as in Tertullian, Apuleius, Pliny, Suetonius, and other such, not to reckon up all. Rainoldes. Why? May not an other man's style be so like to Tertullians', or any such, that you shall not be able to discern between them. Hart. It may be perhaps: but that is rare and hard. And therefore the learned man (whom you mentioned) a De falsa librorum inscrip. biblioth. sanct. lib. 4. Sixtus Senensis, affirmeth, that of all the tokens, and conjectures, by which the right works of authors may be known from counterfeit and forged, the diversity of style doth seem to be most sure and evident. For though it be easy for every crafty coosiner to take upon himself the country, and kindred, and times of any autour, and follow his points of doctrine too: yet there is nothing harder than to counterfeit an other man's style. By the style (saith he) I mean not that outward skin of the words, but the shape of the oration, the frame of the speech, the joining and continual order of the parts, the form of elocution, the figures of speaking, the art of disposing, the method of handling, & other things which are proper to every well spoken autour. For as every man hath a peculiar feature of body to himself, and a peculiar countenance, and a peculiar voice, and a peculiar natural colour, and other several marks whereby he doth differ from other men, and is unlike them: so all ecclesiastical writers have certain properties peculiar to themselves, which never do agree or seldom to any other: such, as is a gorgeous show in Antiochus, an exquisite diligence of speech in Basil, a tragical loftiness in Gregory Nazianzene, a clean and unforced elegancy in Chrysostom, a singular pure facility in Cyprian, a Frenchlike stateliness of utterance in Hilary, a grave and sharp copiousness of brief sayings in Ambrose, in jerom a flourishing variety of things & words, in Austin clauses ending like, and members falling like, in Gregory a gate (as I may say) of sentences answering one an other in measures interchangeably, and other things of like sort, which although a man do seek of purpose to express, yet he cannot attain unto them. By the which words of Sixtus you may see, that Turrian spoke reason, in saying, that the style is commonly a sure token to discern the right works of authors from counterfeits. Rainoldes. And by the same words of Sixtus you may see, that he, in saying so, disproveth his own reason, and proveth the reason of the Centuries. For the epistles of the Popes which they endi●e of bastardy, are very like in style each of them to other: so like as though all had been spit out of one man's mouth. Now the authors of them are said to have been, not two or three Popes, whose children might be like; but two or three and thirty with the advantage, Clemens, evaristus, Telesphorus, Hyginus, Anicetus, Soter, Calixtus, Vrbanus, Pontianus, Anterus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Silvester, and more, beside the fourteen whose names you alleged out of Stapleton and Canus. Hereupon the b Centur. 2. c. ●. Centuries infer that those epistles are falsely fathered on them: because the whole shape and frame of their speech doth openly bewray that one and the same man was autour of them al. For it cannot be (say they) that so many Bishops should have the same speech, no not though they had been accustomed of purpose to likeness of style. And this is their reason of the likeness of style: which c Pro epi●●. Pont. l. 2. c. 1. Turrian, while he striveth to laugh it out as foolish, confirmeth as most sound, by saying that the style is wont to be a sure token whereby men's own works are discerned from counterfeits, as they have been in Austin, jerom, Ambrose, Cyprian, Tertullian, and others. Which could not be so, but that the styles of men have their peculiar properties, wherein they differ each from other, as their bodies do in feature, colour, voice, countenance, and other marks whereby we know them. And you shall not lightly ●●nde three men, that have bodies like in all respects: much less three and thirty. So the blindness, which you thought to show in the century writers, as heretics, is fallen on the heretical jesuit who reproveth them. Yea, as d 2. King. 6. 1●. the Syrians, when they went about to take Elisaeus, were stricken with blindness, and led into the mids of the city of Samaria: so the blind jesuit, while he sought to beat down a truth in the Centuries, hath fallen into the mids of a Samaritan quality. For to prove that they could not disprove those epistles by unlikeness of style, he saith that we have nothing written by those Popes, whose epistles they deny, but only those epistles. Which is an untruth. For one of the Popes, whose bastard epistles e Centur. 3. c. 7. they deny, is Cornelius. Of his there is extant one whole right epistle, and parcels of more, in f Epist. 46. & 48. edit. Pam. Cyprian and g Eccles. hist. l. 6 c. 42. Eusebius. An other h Centur. 4. c. 7. is julius. Of his there is extant a right epistle in i In Apolog. 2. Athanasius. Between which epistles, the right ones in Cyprian, Eusebius, and Athanasius, and the bastard ones which are denied by the Centuries, there is as great difference almost for the style: as there is for substance, between gold, and copper. Now by these few you may esteem the rest: for they came all from one smiths forge. Wherefore not only the likeness of the style, but the unlikeness also convinceth them of forgery. And this is noted too by k Centur. 4. c. 7. the writers of the Centuries: chiefly in that of julius. The more do I marvel at the jesuits boldness, who saith that they neither could nor do object unlikeness of the style against them. Hart. Yet the former reason which they bring from the Latin, that it is rude & barbarous, is justly challenged by l Pro epist. Pont. l. 1. c. 17. Turrian. For S. m 2. Cor. 11.6. Paul was rude in speech, but not in knowledge. And so might the Popes be. Rainoldes. Not so. For it is one thing to be * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, set against 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which the false Apostles used. ●. Cor. 2. ver. ●▪ ● 4. rude in speech, and simple (as you would say) without pomp & bravery: an other thing, to be barbarous. As it is one thing for a husbandman to wear home-made cloth, which many honest men do: an other thing, to go (as rogues are wont) in rags. Wherefore when Turrian saith that the Popes might write barbarously, least by choice of words they should seem to hunt for praise and vain glory: it is, as if a man should say that godly preachers ought to go in torn clothes and full of vermin▪ lest by cleanly handsomeness they should seem to give themselves to pride and vanity. As for his other reason that they might do it of a desire to edify, that, in things pertaining to the salvation of all, even the simplest might understand them: the reason were some what if the common people's speech in those days had been of so course a thread, as theirs is. For the speech of men is best understood when they declare their minds in such words▪ & phrases, as are received commonly. But as far as I can guess, or you prove, by the monuments of that time which are left in writing either by heathens or by Christians: such Rigorosus, modernus, charitatiws, inthro●izare, a malis se cavere, utiliter se praeuidea●, gaudeo de vestra sospitate, leges se nocentes non suscipiunt, praetaxato modo, ut praelibatum est, episcopus accusandus▪ est ad primates suos, necessarium es● ut vobis ab hac Apostolica sede suffragetur, with many like flowers of speech: salva in omnibus autoritate Apostolica. In the epistles of Telesphorus, Vrbanus, Antorus, Fabianus, Stephanus, Eusebius, Melchiades, and the rest. base words and phrases, as these epistles swarm with, were not received then in the common speech. And shall we think that none of all the Doctors of that age did write for the instruction of the simplest too? Not Tertullian? Not Cyprian? Not Arnobius? Not Lactantius? Not Minutius Felix? Not jerom, Ambrose, Austin? Or could they instruct them with clean and true Latin, and could not the Popes? Nay, did other common Christians in Rome speak congruously, and purely, as we see by their epistles and speeches yet o In Cyprian. epist. 3.26.30.31.46. & 50. extant: and was it a privilege of the Pope's alone to write barbarously? I will not deny but that the Popes in our days may have such prerogatives: but I am persuaded that in times of old they were as other common men. And therefore if you have no better ground than Turrian, I shall continue my opinion that the Latin also and not the style only is justly noted by the Centuries, to prove, that the epistles whereof we treat are counterfeit. Howbeit neither style, nor Latin, are the only proofs that they bring for it. They have more, and stronger. Hart. How strong, it may appear by that which they have put last as the strongest; even their chiefest reason, the authority of witnesses. For therein p Centur. ●. c▪ 7. they conclude that the ancient Popes were not authors of those epistles, because neither Eusebius, nor jerom, nor Damasus, do make mention of them, nor any autour lightly before the time of Charles the great. Of the which argument, the former part is fond: the later, untrue. For although Eusebius and jerom are wont diligently to note what things have been written by any great Doctor; yet not all men's writings came to their hands. As for Damasus, he writeth not so much the lives of the Popes his predecessors, as brief Chronicle-notes: what place they were born in, what kindred they came off, in what time they lived, how often they gave orders, in what year they died, and where they were buried. Wherefore it is no marvel that he noted not what epistles they wrote. Though in a written copy at Rome (which q Pro ep. Po●●▪ l. 5. c. 20. Turrian saw) there is mention made of one of their epistles, namely of Anacletus. Rainoldes. In a written copy, at Rome, it may be: but in no printed copy yet. An oversight of some, who, when Friar Su●ius set forth the Counsels last, did not inform him of it, that h● might have mended it in Damasus. But if Damasus thought it a matter worth the noting how often they gave orders: it is very likely that he would have noted how they wrote sometimes too, if they had been such writers. As for Eusebius, and jerom, though (I grant) all writers came not to their hands: yet were it very strange, that r Eusebius l. ●. & 3. De vi●a Constant. the one of them being in great favour with Constantine the Roman Emperor, s Hieron. ep. 11. ad Ageruchiam. the other attending on Damasus the Roman Bishop in ecclesiastical writings, both of them desirous and curious to know all Christian writers monuments t Euseb. in hist. ecclesiast. Hi●ron. de scrip●orib. ecclesiast. purposely to speak of them; neither of them could see one of these epistles, that such and so many Bishops of Rome had written. Chiefly, sith they found sundry epistles written u Namely, by Clemens, Victor, and Cornelius. by them, which they mention: and yet of all which they found, there is not one amongst these neither. Hart. Those, which then were common, might be lost since: and these, which now we have, might be then unknown. Nether is it reason that all they should be said to have written nothing, whose writings are not commonly known unto men. For even now there are (as x Pro epist. 〈◊〉. l. 5. c. 20. Turrian reporteth) in the Pope's library many books of epistles of the later Popes, which contain the acts and deeds of each their Popedomes, whence they are commonly called registers: of Gregory the seventh, Innocent the third, Honorius the third, Gregory the ninth, Innocent the fourth, Alexander the fourth, Vrban the fourth, Clemens the fourth, Nicolas the third, Honorius the fourth, Boniface the eighth, john the two and twentéeth, Clemens the sixth, Innocent the sixth, and Vrban the fifth. And these are known of few men, because they are in writing only and not printed: besides very few which Gregory the ninth, and Boniface the eighth have taken out of them, and compiled them in the Decretals to the use of Church-causes. But, if these perhaps should be set forth hereafter: would you say that they are forged, because there hath no mention of them been made by writers, nor by the Popes themselves; nay▪ which the Popes themselves perhaps never saw? Rainoldes. The comparison is un-even when you say, that the Popes themselves never saw books in their own library, thereby to show, that many books might be there, which jerom and Eusebius knew not. For it is likely that the Popes have many books which they see not: they have other things to look on. But Eusebius and jerom did study through libraries, to see all the authors which were extant in them. So that they were as likely to know the epistles of the former Popes, as Turrian these of the later. For Turrian doth not search old monuments more carefully to see up the Pope, than jerom and Eusebius did to set forth Christ. But whatsoever jerom or Eusebius saw: think you not that the Popes, as little as they see the books in their library, yet, if the sight of any thereof could avail them toward the recovering of their supremacy in England, they would find it quickly? Hart. I think it should be forth coming to do good. Rainoldes. Then have the Centuries in this place of witnesses a very strong proof, that (about the time of jerom and Eusebius) these epistles were not in the Pope's library. For there is no mention made of them at all either in y Concil. Carthag. 6. & Africanum. Abou● the year of Chri●●. 420. the Council of Carthage, or of Africa: in which the Pope endeavouring to show that appeals might lawfully be made to him, would have alleged them of likelihood, had they been extant. But this probability noted by the Centuries, Turrian passeth over in silence very smoothly; where yet he maketh semblance of answering all their witnesses: belike, after Antony's precept in z De 〈◊〉 lib. ●. Tully, who wisheth men, if they be troubled with a hard argument, to say nothing to it. Howbeit all these (I grant) are but likelihoods. Notwithstanding if you add to these likelihoods of Damasus, of jerom, of Eusebius, of the Popes themselves, this also that neither any other Father or autour worthy of credit may be lightly found that hath alleged them before the time of Charles the great, about eight hundred years after Christ: it may be well thought that there was good cause why the Centuries should suspect them. Hart. Nay, that is the later part of their argument, which (as I said) is untrue. * Turria●. pro epist. Pont. lib. 5. cap. 2●. For Isidore (who lived above a hundred years before Charles the great) did gather them together at the request of fourscore Bishops. So that we have four score Bishops in that one, to testify with us against that ly● of the Centuries. Rainoldes. But how know you that, which you tell of Isidore and fourscore Bishops, to be true? Hart. How? By the preface of a Praefat. Isidor. Concilior. ●om. ●. Isidore himself set before the Counsels. For therein, having showed how he was moved (by the request of fourscore Bishops) to gather the canons together: and we have interlaced (saith he) the decrees of certain epistles of the Bishops of Rome, to weet of Clemens, Anacletus, evaristus, and the rest, such epistles as we could find yet, till Silvester the Pope; after the which we have set down the Council of Nice, and after that the remnant of the Pope's decrees even until S. Gregori●. Thus far S. Isidore. And is not he a Father? an autour worthy of credit? Rainoldes. Admit that he is so: what do you conclude thereof against the Centuries? Hart. Even that which b Chronograph. lib. 3. Genebrard doth, to utter it with his words: then do the Centurie-writers err, who keep a babbling that those epistles decretal of the ancient Popes are not alleged by any autour worthy of credit before the time of Charles the great. Rainoldes. Your Genebrard showeth himself a cunning man still against the Centurie-writers. 1 Ne●●atil● reperia●. For, whereas they say●● you shall not lightly find it;] he clippeth off the word [lightly,] that, the thing being found in a preface of Isidores, he may charge them with 2 Errand e●go Centuriatores. error, to discredit the heretics. But what if S. Isidore did not write that preface? What if he be a counterfeit too? Hart. Marry now you have the way, if you can hold it. Deny all the writers that do make against you, and say they be counterfeit. So shameless a cause you undertake as shameless patrons, that but by shameless means you are not able to maintain it. Rainoldes. Nay patience, I pray. Me thought you were agreed that I might lawfully except against a Father, if he were counterfeit. Hart. True: if he were so. But it is no good exception in law, to say this or that against a man: you must prove it. Rainoldes. So I mind to do. And that by demonstration out of the sa●e book of c Chronograph. ●ib. 3. Genebrard himself, in which he ●indeth this fault with the Centurie-writers. For about what year of Christ did Isidore die? How doth Genebrard reckon? Hart. In the year six hundred thirty and seven: as he proveth out of Vasaeus. Rainoldes. When was the general Council of Constantinople under Agatho kept? What saith he of that? Hart. In the year six hundred four score and one, or two, or there about. Rainoldes. Then Isidore was dead above forty years before that general Council. Hart. He was: but what of that? Rainoldes. Of that it doth follow that the preface written in Isidores name and set before the Counsels to purchase credit to those epistles, is a counterfeit, and not Isidores. For in that preface there is mention made of the general Council of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius, and Stephanus, in the time of Pope Agatho, & Constantine the Emperor. Which, seeing it was held above forty years after Isidore was dead by Genebrards' own confession: by his own confession Isidore could not tell the four score Bishops of it. And so the four score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore, are dissolved all into one counterfeit, abusing both the name of Isidore and four score Bishops. Hart. d Libr. de 〈◊〉 capit. eccles. cap. 27. Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rheims in the time of jews son to Charles, about seven hundred years since, did think that work to be S. Isidores, and so he citeth it. Rainoldes. Why mention you that? Are you disposed to prove that some have been deceived, and thought him Isidore who was not? Hart. No: But to prove that the work is Isidores (as Father e Pro epist. Pont. lib. 5. c. 25. Turrian doth) by the testimony of Igmarus. Rainoldes. Ignarus can not prove that. He must be content to be deceived in some what as well as his ancestors. For it is too clear by the f Concil. Toletan. 4. & 6. in subscription. episcopor. Counsels themselves that Isidore did die about the time that we agreed of: and therefore no help, but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name. Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit, sith I find that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit. And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great, when the western Churches did commonly-fetch books from the Roman library, some groom of the Popes (that had an eye to the almes-box) conveyed this pamphlet in amongst them: and well meaning men (in France, and other countries) received it as a worthy work, compiled by S. Isidore, and coming from the See Apostolic. But say what may be said for the silence of old witnesses, which is urged, (and justly,) as a probable conjecture, that those epistles were not extant in their days, the matters that are handled and debated in them, the scriptures alleged, the stories recorded, the ceremonies mentioned, the times and dates assigned, are, not conjectures probable, but most certain proofs, that they could not be written by those ancient Bishops of Rome, whose names they bear. There is a book entitled to the Poet g Ouidij Nasonis Pelignensis de vetula. Printed by john of Lubeck, a citizen of Coolein in the year of Christ. 1479. Ovid, touching an old woman: have you ever seen it? Hart. What is that to the purpose? Doth he speak of the Pope's epistles? Rainoldes. No: but their epistles are like to that book in sundry respects. It is ancient: it was printed above a hundred years ago. And he, who set it forth, saith that Ovid wrote it in his old age, and willed it to be laid up in his grave with him: in the which grave it was found at length by the inhabitants of the country who sent it to Constantinople, and the Emperor gave it to Leo his principal notary, who did publish it. A smooth tale, to make men believe that it is Ovid's. Of whom though it savour no more, than these epistles of the Bishops of Rome: yet if your Divines could find some antic verse there that were an evidence for the Pope's supremacy, I see my former reasons would not dissuade you from believing but Ovid wrote the book. For, to the barbarousness and baseness of the Latin and style, if I should urge it, you might answer that Ovid wrote so for two causes: that he might not seem to be vain gloriously given, and that his repentance might be known even to the simplest. To the silence of witnesses, that no man maketh mention of it amongst his works, you might answer that it lay hidden in his grave. And this you might answer with greater show of likelihood, then that the Pope's epistles lay hidden in the Pope's library. But unto the matters of which the book entreateth, and things that it discourseth on, no shadow of defence can be made with any reason. For h De ve●ula, 〈◊〉. 3. it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie, that 1 Hanc mediatricem dabit humano generi rex Largitor veniae. God shall give her to be our mediatresse, and 2 Non opus est vt●am velit exaltare gradatim▪ Sed simul assumet, simul & sibi concathedrabit. shall assumpt her into heaven, and place her in a throne with him: yea, the autour 3 Illic esto tui memorum memor optima virgo. prayeth to her. Which are points of doctrine that were not heard of (I trow) in Ovid's time. Neither is it likely that Ovid was so well read in the scriptures, that he could i De vetula l. 2. cite the 4 Imbenedicibilem lex innuit illa spadonem Exemplo quodam famoso: nam spado, cum sit Voce jacob, manibus non est Esau. law of Moses, and speak of jacob and Esau, and allude to 5 Ecclesiast. 12. l. 3. de vetula. Solomon in Ecclesiastes. Even so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome, although you have gloss to shift of other reasons: yet I am persuaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them. For the scriptures are so alleged; and such points are taught about the government of the Church, about religion, about rites, about stories ecclesiastical, that it is not possible they should be written by those Bishops. Hart. Why? Do you think it as unlikely a matter, that they should allege the scriptures, as that Ovid should? Rainoldes. Nay, I do think it, or rather I do know it to be more unlikely, that they should so allege the scriptures as they do, then that Ovid should allude to Solomon, or cite Moses. For k joseph. antiquit. jud. lib. 12. c. 2. the books of Moses ( l Epiphan. lib. de mensur. & ponder. perhaps of Solomon too) were translated into Greek by the seventy interpreters many a year before Ovid: and he might have read them. But your common Latin translation of the old testament, made (a great part of it) by S. jerom out of the Hebrew, (whence it is called S. jeroms,) could not be seen by Anacletus and other ancient Bishops of Rome. For they were deceased before he was borne. And yet all their epistles do allege the scriptures after that translation. An evident token, that the writer of them did live after S. jerom: yea, a great while after him, as may be deemed probably. For the common Latin translation, which the ancient Latin Fathers used, was made out of the Greek of the seventy interpreters. Tertullian, Cyprian, Hilary, Ambrose, and other of the same ages, show it in all their writings. Nether was that old translation forsaken strait ways, as soon as jerom had set forth his new. For m De civit. Dei l. 18. c. 43. Austin, who saw jeroms, preferred still the old translation before it. n Epist. ad Leandrum in exposition. job. cap. 5. Gregory, who lived about two hundred years after, doth use them both indifferently (because the Church of Rome did so,) o Exposit. job. ●●. c. ●●. but liketh better of the new. And so in process of time the new translation did prevail, and the old was wholly left: save in the Psalms only, which being song in Churches had taken deeper root than could be plucked up by jerom. Now, sith those epistles of the Bishops of Rome do allege the scriptures after that translation which the Fathers called the new, p Concil. Trident. Session. 4. you call the old, and it was so long after jeroms time before that translation was grown to such credit that it had shut the other out: it is probable that they were written long after, but whether long or short, it is certain that they were written after jeroms time. Hart. It is true that Anacletus and the rest of those Bishops, who lived before S. jeroms time, must needs use that translation which the Fathers call the old. And so doth q Pro epist. Pont. l. 5. c. 21. Turrian answer they did in these epistles. Rainoldes. The contrary is plain by the epistles themselves, in every one of them. Hart. I: but Turrian saith that when these epistles were first set abroad to the use of the Church that they might come to all men's knowledge, than was it thought good (because S. jeroms translation was in all men's hands) that many places, which were cited according to the other, should be changed and cited according to S. jeroms translation. Rainoldes. But how doth Turrian prove that they were cited first according to the other? Hart. Because sundry sentences, which in them are cited out of the Prophets, would better fit the purpose if they had been cited according to the other which was out of the Greek, then according to S. jeroms which is out of the Hebrew. For example, in the first epistle of Pope r Alexand. prim. ep. 1. ad omnes orthodoxos. Alexander, that text is alleged out of the Prophet s Zach. 2.8. Zacharie, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of mine eye, as it is in jerom. But the other translation out of the Greek should be, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of his eye: that is, of his own eye, and not of Gods. In the which sort it had been more fit for Alexander to cite it, as Turrian doth prove by the circumstances of the text. And the like he showeth in two or three examples more. Rainoldes. And thereof he concludeth that the Pope did cite it so. As who say the Pope must needs do that which was most fit. Hart. Nay, it doth not well agree to his purpose, unless he did cite it so. Rainoldes. Whether it do, or no: it is plain that the autour meant not so to cite it. For in the same epistle he saith that Priests and Bishops (to whom he apply it) are called the eyes of the Lord. Which sith he saith on those words, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of mine eye: it seemeth that he meant [eye] not of his eye who toucheth, but of Gods. Neither had he meant otherwise if he had cited the words after the Greek translation, and not jeroms. For though it be in Greek, He that toucheth you, toucheth the apple of his eye, (as it is in Hebrew, and in the t In Bibliis Complutensib▪ & Regi●s Antuerp. & variis manuscript. Hontenii. & Francisci Luc. & text. excus. cum. Hieron. commentar. in Zachar. 2. best copies of jeroms Latin too:) yet the word [his, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉] is referred to [the Lord of hosts] whose care of his people the Prophet noteth by that speech, in like sort as u Deut. 32.10. Moses had also done before him. Wherefore if it agree not well in that sense to the purpose and drift of the Pope's epistle, in which it is alleged, as Turrian saith it doth not: than himself confesseth that not all the scriptures are there alleged fitly. Which x Pro epist. Pont. l. 3. c. 13. and other where often. he cannot abide the Centuries should say. But if this answer be good and allowable, that when those epistles of the Popes were published, the texts, which could not be alleged so by them, were changed: then is it impossible to bring any reason, but you may shield them from it easily. For if there be a point of order in discipline, or doctrine in faith, or the state of times, or circumstances of persons and things whatsoever, that is disproved by writers and witnesses of that age, as there are infinite: you may say that it was not so in the epistles, but they who set them forth did alter that point. For example, in one of them which is fathered on y Epist. 2. ad Rufum aut Rusticum. Cornelius, appeals unto the See of Rome are approved. But z Epist 55. add Cornelium. Statutum est omnibus nobis. Cyprian doth show that Cornelius agreed with him and other Bishops, that causes should be ended where they began, without appeals. Hart. We shall never make an end if we stand on every particular that may be cavilled at. It sufficeth me that all which you can say is set down in the Centuries, and that which they have said is answered by Turrian. This is a Princip. doctrine. l. 6. c. 15. Stapletons' defence of those epistles: and I content myself with it. Rainoldes. Not all which they have said is answered by Turrian: perhaps not this very point about Cornelius. But if you like so well of Stapletons' policy to lay all on Turrian: let us leave his dealing therein against the Centuries to be considered by the jury. Whom I must request withal to consider of one reason more▪ which they shall neither find in Turrian, nor in the Centuries. Hart. What reason is that? Rainoldes. The judgement of three learned men of your own side, Cusanus, the Cardinal; Bellarmin, the jesuit; and Contius, the famous Lawyer. For Cardinal b De concordant. Cathol. l. 3. c. 2. Cusanus, saying, that peradventure those epistles of Clemens and Ana●letus are counterfeit, upon the which they, who would exalt the See of Rome more than is expedient and seemly for the holy Church, do ground themselves: addeth for proof thereof, that if a man first did read them over diligently, applying the state of their times to those epistles, and then were perfect in the works of all the holy Fathers who lived until Austin, jerom, and Ambrose, and in the acts of Counsels where true and authentical writings are alleged; he should find this true, that neither are the said epistles mentioned in any of those writings, yea, and the epistles being applied to the time of those holy men do betray themselves. Hart. Cusanus, when he wrote these things, was not Cardinal: neither doth he affirm it, but saith, [peradventure:] and he mentioneth the epistles of Clemens and Anacletus only, not of all. Rainoldes. But his reasons, of the contents and witnesses, do touch them all: as doth his drift also. Nor saith he [peradventure] of doubting▪ but of modesty: for he addeth farther that 1 Ex allegatis etiam in ipsis epistolis, ac a liis innumeris, ista pat●re possent, ●uae hic superuacué poverentur. things a great number do prove it manifestly. And though he were not Cardinal then, yet he was Doctor of the Canon law, and Deane of a Cathedral Church, and fit to be made Cardinal within a few years after. Neither spoke he of hatred to the See of Rome, which he calleth the divine, 2 Omni laud su●erexcellen●●●simam. the most excellent in all praise, yea most superexcellent, the first, the chief See; and saith that she needeth not to help herself with these doubtful arguments, which are drawn out of those epistles and put in the decrees of Gratian. But if he were not Cardinal when he gave that judgement: yet Bellarmin was jesuit when he confirmed it. For when he read at Rome of the Pope's supremacy, and came to that argument of these epistles of the Popes: he said that Father Turrian a learned man had defended them to be their own, but he thought the contrary opinion to be truer. Hart. How know you that he said so, when he read at Rome? Rainoldes. One of your own friends and fellows, c M. Rishton. who was present, told me he heard him say so. And I do the rather believe his report, because, whereas d In Romani● praelectionib. controver 4. quaest. 5. Bellarmin himself hath set in writing the sum of those lectures, he saith though not altogether so much, yet in effect. For I will not deny (saith he) but there are some errors crept into them. Hart. But he addeth that certes he thinketh nevertheless that they are very ancient. Rainoldes. And why? because Isidore maketh mention of them. Which reason, that he therefore doth think them very ancient because there is mention made of them by Isidore, is as much in softer words, as if he said, he thinketh them ancient, howbeit not so ancient as they are pretended. It may be that Bellarmin, if he were advertised that Isidore is forged too, would think them less ancient by one degree then yet he thought. But that which the jesuit was loath to deal with over roughly: the Lawyer, a man of better mind, and bolder spirit, doth plainly avouch. For he affirmeth it to be clear and evident, that those epistles of the Popes, who were before Silvester, are all false and counterfeit. Now Silvester was Pope at the time of the Nicen Council, above three hundred years after Christ. And so the exception which I made against your first band of Popes, who lived three hundred years after Christ, and upward: you see it is confirmed by a famous Lawyer, a man of great judgement, and of your own religion. Hart. What famous Lawyer is it? Or how doth he confirm it? Rainoldes. It is Antonius Contius, the kings professor of the law in the university of Burges: with whose notes (allowed and approved by the privileges of the Spanish & French kings) your Canon-law was * In the year of● Christ. 1570. printed at Antwerp by Plantin. In e Distinct. 16. c. Septuaginta. In Annot. Cont. one of those notes, he saith, that he hath brought 1 Multas rationes. many reasons in his preface, by which he hath proved and 2 Manifesté ostendi. showed manifestly, that 3 Omnes Pontificum qui Siluestrum praecesserunt decretales falsas esse. the epistles of the Popes who were before Silvester, are all false and counterfeit. Behold, he hath showed it, not by one or two guesses, but by many reasons; and that, manifestly. Hart. But what are the reasons, which he hath showed it so by? Rainoldes. Nay, I am bound to keep counsel in that. For 4 In praefatione ●dduxi. the preface (wherein he brought those reasons) is not printed. Though I must clear Plantin the printer from the fault. For I caused a friend of mine to ask of him, why it was not printed, and what became of it, whether a man might see it or no. To whom he made answer, that the Censor, appointed to oversee books to be allowed to the print, would not suffer it to pass; but what became of it, he remembered not, nor knew how to procure it. They that do evil, hate the light. There was somewhat in that preface, which the Censor would not that all men should see. But f Cic. pro Clu●ent. the truth (saith Tully) which is pressed down by many lewd men, doth rise up often times by this one means: that either they, who are crafty to deceive, are not bold to enterprise so much as they devise; or they, who are bold enough to do any thing, have not wit and subtlety to convey their practices. Which consideration of a wise Orator, the folly of your Censor hath proved to be true. For though he were bold enough to leave out the preface of Contius: yet he had not craft enough to raze out that note which mentioneth the preface. And yet a little after, (to see the mischief of it how that should scape his hands,) he hath put in a note under Contius his name, which would have helped well if he had razed out the other. For, g Distinct. 21. c. cleros. In Annot. Cont. upon a text of Pope Anacletus he hath made him say: I know that 5 Quosdam istorum Pontificum a Petro proximé sequentium decretales falsi insimulare. some affirm those epistles of the Popes who next succeeded Peter to be false and counterfeit; but I would desire them to bring 6 Maiorem probationem. better proof: specially sith they are found in all the courses of canons that are extant, collected 7 Ab Isidoro. by Isidore out of the book of Damasus which was Bishop of Rome. This note was juggled in well by the Censor, with this subscription, [Contius.] Pity, that he took not away the other note, where [Contius] is subscribed too. Hart. Why suspect you the Censor that he should make that note, and not Contius himself write it? You have a lesson in S. h 1. Cor. 13.7. Paul, that charity is not suspicious. Rainoldes. Charity is not sottish neither: I learn that lesson of him too. For as it is a vice to suspect unjustly: so it is no virtue to believe unwisely. And S. Paul, who saith that charity believeth all things: yet believed not that i Act. 23.16. they meant him well, of whom he understood by his sister's son that they would lie in wait to kill him. Charity believeth all things, which a wise and godly man should believe. But to believe that Contius wrote that note himself, were greater folly to the believer, than charity to the Censor. For how could it be that a learned man, the kings professor of the law, should say concerning the same epistles, first, I have showed manifestly by many reasons that they are counterfeit: and anon, I know that some affirm them to be counterfeit; but I would desire them to bring better proof. Chief sith the cause, that is added there why he desireth better proof, is Isidores authority: 8 Isidorus multa apocrypha & dubiae fidei inseruit. whom k In praefat. Qui aut quot ante Gratianum canones ecclesiasticos collegerint. Contius (in that respect) doth discredit; which note is printed too. And afterward again, on l 6. q. 1. c. Beatus. 8. q. 1. c. unde. 30. q. 5. c. judicantem. In Annot. other texts of those epistles, he noteth sundry points whereby it is manifest (he saith) that they are forged: and yet again, on m 30. q. 5. c. Aliter. other, he mentioneth the proof thereof made in his preface: yea, and that is more, upon the same epistle of the same Anacletus, on which that counterfeit note was coined, n Distinct. 99 c. Provinciae. Contius again noteth, this epistle is falsely fathered on Anacletus, 9 Vt in praefatione monui. as I advertised in my preface. See you not how rightly Tully did observe, that if, either subtlety were bold, or boldness crafty, it would go hard with the truth? The truth which is oppugned by those epistles of the Popes should have had one patron less to speak for her, if your Censor had been as politic to blot out the notes touching the preface, as he was hardy to leave the preface out, and coin a new note against it. And yet perhaps he blotted out some notes too. But men, who deal with much, shall oversee somewhat. Hart. You still suspect the worst. It might be the correctors fault and not the censors. Or if the Censor did it, he did it of a good mind, because he thought that Contius was deceived in it. Rainoldes. The likelihood and presumption is not so much of the corrector, who viewing all the notes might have left out the rest too, if he had been the doer: as it is of the Censor, who suffering not the preface to pass to the print for the Pope's sake, may justly be suspected that he would strain an inch farther to help the Pope. But, you say, he did it of a good mind. But good minds must learn to use good means also. At least, he should have done as Friar Surius did: who, whereas in the old edition of the Counsels there were certain things noted out of Cassiodore, Marianus Scotus, and Gregory Haloander, touching the years of the Consuls who are named in the dates of those epistles of the Popes: Surius (in his new edition thereof) hath left out all those notes, o Praefat. ad sectorem. Conciliorum Tom. 1. yielding this reason why he left them out, because both the thing is dark of itself, & it is made more dark and intricate by their variance; in so much that Calvin seemeth on that occasion to have rejected those epistles. In deed the Centurie-writers (whom Surius meant perhaps when he named Calvin) do set down that circumstance, of the year of the Consuls assigned in their dates, for a proof that they be forged: and they confirm that proof by those very notes that were set forth with the epistles. For p Cent. 3. cap. 7. many of the epistles have the names of such Consuls, as never were Consuls together, or lived not then: q Cent. 4. cap. 7. as appeareth by Marianus Scotus & others, yea, even by the notes added to those epistles in the Tome of Counsels. Which words might work discredit to the Centurie-writers with them who see the Counsels in no edition but the last: for there are no such notes. And Surius, in leaving them out, hath answered well that reason of the Centurie-writers. Though he should have answered it a great deal better, if he had left out also the epistles themselves. For as long as they are extant: we shall not need the notes upon their dates to control them. Yet as he dealt wisely in leaving out the notes, so he showed honesty in telling men of it: that they may know there were notes before, which impaired the credit of the epistles; and if they list to see them, they may seek and find them too. But the Censor, who fell upon the notes of Contius, hath showed no such honesty. For neither hath he given any signification that he caused the preface to be left out; neither hath he told us of an other edition where it might be found; and, that which is the worst, he hath made Contius to speak in maintenance of that which himself known and had declared to be forged. All the which points it behoveth the jury to consider off; and not to weigh only the judgement of Contius, or Bellarmin, or Cusanus, for the disproof of those counterfeits on which you ground the Pope's supremacy: but to think with themselves how many more of likelihood even in the midst of Popery have spoken against them; yea, sundry peradventure, who, (as their writings are printed now,) speak for them. For if in these days when men do sift their doings, Surius durst adventure to leave out notes already printed, and the Censor to suppress things in printers hands that they may never come to light, yea, to write notes in the names of authors flat contrary to their judgement, & print them as their own too: what is it to be feared they did in former times, when there were few that would espy them? Or, if espy them, yet who so hardy to bewray them? Hart. The judgement of Cusanus, and Bellarmin, and Contius, and the rest of our side, (if there were more who thought so,) may not disprove those epistles: seeing that themselves allow the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome. Rainoldes. So much the greater force they have to disprove them: sith it is not likely that they would leave this hold of that, which they favour, if manifest truth and reason did not compel them thereunto. Hart. But why do you bring the judgement of our Cardinals, or jesuits, or Lawyers herein against 〈◊〉: when, in as weighty a point against yourself, you will not receive them. Rainoldes. I gave you the reason r In the 1. Divis. of this Chapt. before out of the scriptures, which cite the Poets so. But if you will have it confirmed by the Fathers, you know that s divine. institut. Lactantius, t De praepa ratione evangelica. Eusebius, u Adue●sus gentes. Arnobius, and x Clemens Alexandrinus, justinus Martyr, Tertullianus, Tatianus, & Augustinus. many more of them do bring the writings of Sibylla, and Orpheus, and Hermes, and other Gentiles against the Gentiles, whose judgements they would not receive against themselves. For, if Sibylla (saith▪ y Contra Faustum Manich●. l. ●3. c. ●5. Austin) and Orpheus, and Hermes, and other either Prophets, or Divines, or wise men, or Philosophers of the Gentiles have said true things touching god: that is of some force, not for us to embrace the authority of them, but to convince by them the vanity of Gentiles when we show that we do worship that God of whom even they have spoken, who partly did teach, partly durst not for bid their fellow Gentiles to worship idols. And it is written in your z 2. q. 7. c. Si haeteticus. law, that if a Catholic be in suit against an heretic, the testimony of an heretic is of force for the Catholic: but against the Catholic no testimony is of force, saving the testimony of a Catholic only. The testimonies therefore of Cardinals, & jesuits, and what soever Papists, are of force against you, but not for you against us▪ Nether is their caus● why you should ask rather why I bring their judgements against the Pope's epistles, and yet allow them not in the Pope's supremacy: then why a Exod. 3.22. & 12.35. the Israelites took jewels and furniture of gold and silver of the Egyptians, when yet they forsook their idols and heavy burdens▪ And thus you see what malt the soft fire hath made for the first band of Popes, whom either you named out of Stapleton, and Canus; or wrapped up without names in the decrees of Gratian. Have you any hope of better success in the remnant of them: or will you muster new soldiers? Hart. You shall find more valour in these than you look for, as hotly as you call for new. For, the exceptions which you made against the second sort ofPopes are nought doubtless: to say nothing of the third. Rainoldes. You do well to say nothing of the third sort. But what mislike you in my exceptions to the other? Hart. You should ask me rather what I mislike not. For I mislike all that you have said therein. First, that they avouch not the Pope's supremacy. Which who would say, but you? For it is too clear that Innocentius the first, Leo the first, Gelasius, Vigilius, Pelagius, and S. Gregory, (whom all you comprehend in the second sort of Popes,) avouch it as fully and in as ample manner, as any Popes sigh them have done. Rainoldes. It is too clear they do not. And that will I prove by the third sort ofPopes, in the same places, that yourself alleged out of the b c. Significasti. de electione. c. Antiqua. de privilegiis. c. Fundamenta. de electione. In Sexto. decretals, and c Ex●ra. c. unam sanctam. de maioritate & obedientia. extravagants, and the d Sub Leon. decimo. Session 11. Council of Lateran. For Paschal the second, Innocentius the third, Nicolas the third, Boniface the eighth, and Leo the tenth, (the authors of the chapters and texts which you quoted,) do claim much therein, that neither Innocentius the first, nor Leo the first, nor Gelasius, nor Vigilius, nor Pelagius, nor Gregory, nor any of that sort claimed. Hart. What one point, that toucheth the substance of the Pope's supremacy? Rainoldes. First, their sovereign power over all Princes, that they may depose them: and that themselves are subject to none, not to the Emperor. For e c. Fundamenta. de election. in Sexto. Nicolas the third saith, that the monarchy of both powers (he meaneth ecclesiastical and civil) belongeth in the city of Rome to the Pope by the donation of Constantine: who thought it unmeet that an earthly Emperor should have dominion there, where God had set the Prince of Priests. And f Extra. c. unam▪ sanctam. de maioritate & obedientia. Boniface the eighth proclaimeth himself to be set ofGod over nations, & kingdoms, to pluck up, and to root out, and so forth, even to judge the Princes of the earth. Which ordinance of Boniface (renewed, and approved by g In Concil. Lateran. Session. 11. Leo the tenth,) hath been put in practise accordingly by sundry ofthem. Many kings, and Emperors deposed by their sentence (as h Steuch. Eugus been. de falsa donat. Constantin. lib. 2. Sixt. Senens. biblioth. sanct. l. 6. annot. 72. your own writers boast) have felt the proof thereof: and we have seen lately their will in our Queen, and * King Henry the eighth deposed by Pope Paul the third: as he Majesty by Pius the fifth▪ Onuphr. de vitis Pont. in Paulotert. Genebrard. Chronograph. lib. 4. her father of famous memory, though God hath blessed where they cursed, and held them up whom they deposed. But the second sort of Popes were so far from claiming this power over all Princes, that they claimed it not over any. Neither were they monarchs of the civil power in Rome, (as I i Chapt. 7. Division 7. have proved,) by Constantine's donation: but subject to the Emperor, to whom that sovereignty belonged, as they acknowledged. For k Leo epist. 47. & 48. ad Martianum Aug. Tom. 1. Concilior. Leo the first, when the Emperor Martianus had summoned the general Council of Chalcedon, and sent out his writs for him and other Bishops (as l Euseb. de vit. Constantin. l. 3. c. 6. Socrat. hist. ecclesiast. l. 5. c. 8. & l. 7. c. 33. Leo epist. 12.16. & 23. add Theodosium August. Emperors used) to come thither: although he neither liked the place, nor the time, appointed by the Emperor; yet did he according as he was commanded. The obedience of the rest I need not show in particular. The dutiful submission of m Registr. lib. 2. epist. 61. lib. 4. epist. 31. lib. 5. ep. 6●. lib. 6. ep. 6. & caet Gregory to the Emperor Mauricius, his Lord, as still he calleth him▪ may be a general token of it. But when the third sort of Popes bore the sway, the state was turned upside-down. In so much that whereas the Pope said before, 1 Piisaimus Dominus noster. Grego. Regist. lib. 4. ep. 32. our most godly Lord the Emperor: now must the Emperor say, yea, and be sworn 2 Sanctissimo Domino nostro Domino Nicolao divina prouidenti● Papae quinto ego Fridericus rex Romanorum promitto & iuro. Cerem. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. tit. ●. to our most holy Lord the Pope. And whereas the Emperor before did summon Cou●cels, & called the Pope unto them: now the Pope denieth that he may deal therewith; and neither himself obeyeth, nor suffereth others to obey him. When n Li●●r. Pauli tert. Pont. Max. ad Carolum quint. Whereof the sum is in sleindan, lib. 16 the whole copy, in Calvin, Opusculor. par●. 2. class. 1. Charles the fifth (in the assembly of Spier) had mentioned a general Council, and a national, and order to be taken for matters of religion in the Imperial assembly: he was reproved by Paul the third for touching those things without naming the Pope, to whom the sovereign power (he said) of gathering Counsels, & ordering affairs of the Church, is given. Nay, when o Onuphr. de ruis Pon●. in Paulo t●rt. the same Charles requested most earnestly that the Council, called by the Pope to Trent, might be kept there, & not at Bononia, whither the Pope (of policy) had removed it: the same Paul rejected his earnest request, and would by no means yield thereto. So plainly in sight, so greatly in weight, do the later Popes differ from the former, in the chiefest point of their supremacy over all, and being subject unto no man. Hart. It may be that the Popes of the second sort would not, of modesty; or could not, for occasions, claim their full supremacy. Rainoldes. You should speak more truly and Christianly of them, if you said, they thought it not to be their right. But would not, or could not, your own answer granteth that they did not claim it. Wherefore sith their supremacy implieth sovereign power over kings and Emperors, as it is defined by the last sort of Popes: the second, who were subject to the civil powers, and claimed no such sovereignty, avouched not the Pope's supremacy. Hart. Yet over the spiritual powers they avouched it, that is, over Bishops. And that is more than you will yield too. Rainoldes. Though less than you lay claim too. But neither over Bishops did they avouch that which your last sort of Popes doth, and toucheth their supremacy most. For p ●. Significasti. de electione. Paschal requireth Archbishops to be sworn, that they shall be faithful and obedient to him. Yea the same oath of fealty and obedience q c. Antiqua. de privilegiis. Innocentius the third exacteth of the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and jerusalem. Where the second sort of Popes, as namely r Registr. l. 4. epist. 36. & l. 7. indict. 1. ep. 30. Gregory, acknowledged the patriarchs to be his equals, not his subjects▪ And they were so far from offering that violence, and injury to them, that they required not any such oath, no, not of the meanest Pastor in their diocese. Hart. Yes, that they did: as you may see by Pelagius. Who decreed and ordained, that if any Metropolitan did not send to Rome within three months of his consecrtion to take his oath, and receive the pall, he should be deprived of his place and dignity. Rainoldes. Pelagius? Where is that decree? Hart. In the Canon-law: whence it is alleged by s De episcoporum iurisdict. & Pont. Max. autoritate responsum. Proposition. 5. Franciscus Vargas, a notable learned man, king Philip's counsellor and ambassador to Pope Pius the fourth. He, t Paul. Manut. prae●at. ad responsum Fr. Vargas. when the question of the jurisdiction of Bishops and the Pope's authority could not be well agreed on in the Council of Trent, was called by the Pope to a consultation with the chiefest Cardinals. Where he spoke his judgement of the point so wisely, that it was thought fit his answer should be set in print. Therein, amongst many reasons and authorities for the Pope's supremacy, he saith that Pelagius declared it by this decree, in that he would have all Metropolitans sworn to him. Rainoldes. This decree was made by a Popish Lawyer, not by Pope Pelagius. For u Distinct. 100 c. Quoniam. Pelagius, lest that he should rashly give consent to the allowing of any Metropolitan who were not sound in faith, required them * Exponere fidem suam. to make profession of their faith, and so to send for the pall, that is to say, for his consent, whereof the pall was a token. A Lawyer of Paris, one x Defence. in Molinaeum pro Pontifice Ma●imo. Remundus Rufus, to frame hereof a stronger weapon for the Pope, (in whose defence he wrote,) hath changed the words [ad exponendam fidem suam,] into these words, [dandae fidei causa:] & so by dare fidem, in steed of fidem exponere, he proveth that Pelagius would have their oaths to the Pope, whereas he required profession of their faith in Christ. Now, Franciscus Vargas, alleging (as I guess) this text on Rufus credit, (though he name him not,) did mistake the matter; the rather, through a prejudice conceived of the later times. For, that Metropolitans should profess Christ, it was a thing required then. But, that y c. Ego N. extra. de iur●iu●ando. they should be sworn to maintain the Papacy, it is a weed that grew ●●●e or six hundred years after. Hart. That they should be sworn to maintain the Papacy, it is though a newer yet a needful order: lest men should fall away from unity and obedience of the See of Rome. But thus much yet Pelagius decreed, as you grant, that they should all make profession of their faith to him, & be allowed by his consent. Rainoldes. All, within his diocese: not all, throughout the world. Hart. Nay he saith, if any, if any Metropolitan send not unto the See of Rome, to show his faith, and receive the pall: let him be deprived. Behold, he speaketh generally. Rainoldes. So the States of England make their acts of Parliament: if any man do this or that. Which yet they mean not of men in Rome and Turkey; but of all men within the queens dominion. Hart But the whole world is the Pope's diocese. And that he meant of all Metropolitans therein, it is the more likely, because that all Bishops were then confirmed by the Pope, and it was thought necessary that they should be so. Whereof there are evident and notable examples, (as D z Princip. doctrine. lib. 4. cap. 20. Stapleton showeth,) in a Epist. 33. & 34. & 40. & 54. & 55. Leo the great, about the election of Anatolius the Patriarch of Constantinople, and b Epist. 68 Proterius the Patriarch of Alexandria: in c Lib. 7. cap. 8. Sozomen, and d Lib. 5. cap. 9 Theodoret, about Nectarius also elected by the whole Council, and yet to be confirmed by Damasus: in e Lib. 4. epist. 34. Gregory the great about the Bishop of Salonae, who was confirmed by the Emperors, he being not made privy to it; a thing that never happened under any Christian Prince before, saith Gregory. Yea Bishops newly chosen were wont to send letters (called synodical) to the Pope: in which they made profession of the faith they held, and so declared their agreement with the Church of Rome. Such letters f Leo epist. 68 Proterius, the Patriarch afore named of Alexandria, sent to Leo; g Huius epist. meminit Photius in sua bibliotheca. Sophronius, the Patriarch of jerusalem, to Pope Honorius; h Turrian. pro ●pist. Pont lib. 2. cap. 4. Nicephorus, the Patriarch of Constantinople, to Leo the third; and Peter after him, to Leo the ninth. Rainoldes. But, as other patriarchs did send unto the Pope's such letters of conference, whereby they made profession of their faith to him, and showed their agreement with the Church of Rome: in like sort the Pope was wont to make profession of his faith to them, and show his consent in religion with their Churches. For i Registr. lib. 1. ep. 4 & 24. & 25. Gregory the great wrote so to john the Patriarch of Constantinople, to Eulogius the Patriarch of Alexandria, to Gregory and Anastasius the patriarchs of Antioch, to john the Patriarch of jerusalem: and k johan. Di●● in vita Gregor. lib. 2. cap. 3. & 5. this he did according to the ancient custom of his predecessors, amongst whom was Leo. Wherefore the pre-eminence of Leo was no greater in confirming patriarchs of Constantinople, and Alexandria: then was their pre-eminence in confirming him. For as he allowed not them for lawful Bishops, m Leo epist. 3●. & 38. de Anastasio, ep. 67. de Proterio. until by their letters of conference he knew them to be sound in faith: so n Greg. lib. 5. ep. 64. & lib. 7. ep. 53. & Io. Diacon●s, in vita Gregor. l. 4. c. 23 neither were they wont to allow of any, of whose faith they were not informed in the same manner. As for the example in Sozomen & Theodoret, that Nectarius elected by the whole Council was yet to be confirmed by Damasus: therein your Doctor playeth with Sozomen and Theodoret. For o Lib. 7. cap. 8. Sozomen neither saith it, nor maketh any show of saying it, not as much as by naming Damasus. p Lib. 5. cap. ●. Theodoret setteth down the letters written by the Council to Damasus, Ambrose, Britto, and other Bishops of the west: but they disprove that privilege of the Pope's prerogative, which Stapleton would prove by them. For he allegeth them to show that the Pope had * T●ndem. A●hibita tandem est episcoporum omnium per Romanum Pontificem necessaria confirmatio. Staplet. lib. 4. cap. 20. at length (at that time) a necessary consent in the confirming of all Bishops more than other Bishops, yea than himself before had. Whereas the letters mention the consent of Ambrose, Britto, and the rest, no less than the consent of Damasus: and they crave their common consent in like sort to the confirming of Nectarius, as in former time q Synod. Africana apud Cyprian. ep. 68 ad eccles. Legion. Astur. & Emer. Cyprian. ep. 69. ad Florentium. Ambros. ep. 82. all Bishops were confirmed (yea, r Corne●●u●, in Cyprian. ep. 45. ad Cornelium, & ep. 52. ad Antonianum. the Pope too) by the consent each of others, for better keeping of the faith, and fostering of love amongst them. So the rest of your proofs import an equality between all Bishops at the first, and afterward between all patriarchs. The only example that hath any kin with the decree of Pope Pelagius for his superiority ever Metropolitans, is that out of Gregory touching the Bishop of Salonae, s Gregor. lib. 2. indict. 11. ep. 8 a Metropolitan city in the country of Dalmatia. For t Epist. 22. he was accustomed in deed to be confirmed by the consent of the Pope, as of his Archbishop, & u Lib. 7. iudict. 2. epist. 81. to receive a pall from him. But thereof to conclude that all Metropolitans throughout the whole world were likewise subject to the Pope; it hath as much reason, as if you should conclude that the Queen of England appointeth Lieutenants throughout all Christendom, because she appointeth a Lord Deputy in Ireland. You are deceived, M. Hart, if you think the Pope was swollen so big in the time of Pelagius. His dropsy had made him to drink up much, but not all. He was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese, but he was yet but an Archbishop. He was not universal Pope, & Patriarch of the whole world. Hart. Your speech is absurd, and doth confute itself, in seeking to confute the Pope. For if he had but a diocese, how was he an Archbishop? Sith a diocese is the charge committed to a Bishop: an Archbishop, hath a province. And if he were but an Archbishop how had he Metropolitans under him? Whereas a Metropolitan, and an Archbishop, is all one. Beside that, you granted him to be a Patriarch: for else the other patriarchs must be his superiors, to whom you made him equal. So while you strive against him, and go about to bring him under, to bereave him of the supremacy: you speak as though you were bereft of sense and reason, and knew not what to say of him. Rainoldes. In deed, as the names of [Archbishop] and [diocese] are used in our days, and have been of some writers in ancient times also: my speech may seem absurd, who say that the Pope was but Archbishop of a diocese, when he was Patriarch as I grant. But after the language that was then received when the second sort of Popes were at the best, I speak the words of sense and reason. For justinian the Emperor, who (as it is requisite in penning of laws) is wont to keep the proper and usual speech of his time, (and * It began in the year of Christ 527. and continued till ●65 Sigebert. in Chron. his reign did fall into the time we treat off,) x Novel. 137. ●. Non solum. ordained, that if an Elder or Deacon were accused, his Bishop should have the hearing of the matter; if a Bishop, his Metropolitan; if a Metropolitan, his Archbishop. And y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. C. de episcopali a●dientia. again he provided for the ecclesiastical causes of clergy men, that first they should be brought to the Bishop of the city; from the Bishop of the city, to the Metropolitan; from the Metropolitan, to the Synod of the province; from the Synod of the province, to the Patriarch of the diocese: and a Patriarch is all one with an Archbishop, z Novel. 123. ●. Si quis autem. §. Interdi ●it. §. Si qui. veró. 〈◊〉 pas●im▪ in him. Whereby you may perceive, both that an Archbishop had Metropolitans under him: and that a diocese was more than a province. In which respect I called it a Princely diocese, to distinguish it from a Lordly, that you might know I meant a diocese of a larger size, then as the word is taken for a Bishop's circuit. But that you may have the cléerer light to see the truth of mine answer, and thereby to perceive how the Pope encroached on Bishops by degrees, until of an equal he became a sovereign, first over a few, next over many, at last over all: I must fetch the matter of Bishops, Metropolitans, and Archbishops somewhat higher, and show how Christian cities provinces, and dioceses, were allotted to them. First therefore, when a Act. 14.23. Elders were ordained by the Apostles in every Church, b Tit. 1.5. through every city, c Act. 20.28. to * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is▪ to do the duty of a pastor to it. feed the flock of Christ, whereof the holy Ghost had made them overseers: they, to the intent they might the better do it by common counsel and consent, did use to assemble themselves and meet together. In the which meetings, for the more orderly handling and concluding of things pertaining to their charge: they those one amongst them to be the Precedent of their company, and moderator of their actions. As in the Church of Ephesus, though it had d Act. 20.17. sundry Elders and Pastors to guide it: yet amongst those sundry was there one chief, whom our Saviour calleth e Reu. 2.1. the Angel of the Church, and writeth that to him which by him the rest should know. And this is he whom afterward in the primitive Church the Fathers called Bishop. For as the name of f 1. Cor. 4.1. Ministers, common to all them who serve Christ in * Luk. 12.42. the stewardship of the mysteries of God, that is, in preaching of the gospel, is now by the custom of our English speech restrained to Elders who are under a Bishop: so the name of g 1. Tim. 3.2. Tit. 1.7. Act. 20.28. Bishop common to all Elders and Pastors of the Church, was then by the usual language of the Fathers appropriated to him who had the Presidentship over Elders. Thus are certain Elders reproved by h Epist. 13. Presbyteris & Diaconis. Cyprian; for receiving to the communion them who had fallen (in time of persecution,) before the Bishops had advised of it with them and others. And i Euseb. hist. eccles. l. 6. c. 42. Cornelius writeth that the Catholic Church committed to his charge had six and forty Elders, and aught to have but one Bishop. And both of them being Bishops, the one of Rome, the other of Carthage, k Cornelius Cypriano. Ep. 46. Cyprianus Presbyteris & diaconis. Ep. 6. do witness of themselves that they dealt in matters of their Church's l Cyprian. ep. 35 Cornelius ep. 46. apud Cyprianum. government by the consent and counsel of the company of Elders, or the Eldership, as they both (after S. m 1. Tim. 4.14. Paul) do call it. Hart. Elders, and Eldership: you mean presbyteros, and presbyterium, The fourth Division. that is to say Priests, and Priesthood. But these new fangled names came in by your English translations of the new testament: which (as * In the Annotations of the Rhemish Testament. Act. 14.22. our translation doth justly note them for it) have changed Priests into Elders of falsehood and corruption, and that of farther purpose than the simple can see. Which is, to take away the office of sacrificing, and other functions of Priests, proper in the new testament to such as the Apostles often, and the posterity in manner altogether do call Priests, presbyteros. Which word doth so certainly imply the authority of sacrificing, that it is by use made also the only English of sacerdos, yourselves as well as we so translating it in all the old and new testament: though you cannot be ignorant that Priest cometh of presbyter, and not of sacerdos: and, that antiquity for no other cause applied the signification of presbyter to sacerdos, but to show that presbyter is in the new law, that which sacerdos was in the old: the Apostles abstaining from this and other like old names at the first, and rather using the words Bishops, Pastors, and Priests, because they might be distinguished from the governors and sacrificers of Aaron's order, who as yet in the Apostles time did their old functions still in the temple. And this to be true, and that to be a Priest is to be a man appointed to sacrifice: yourselves calling sacerdos always a Priest must needs be driven to confess. Albeit your folly is therein notorious, to apply willingly the word Priest to sacerdos, and to take it from presbyter, whereof it is derived properly not only in English but in other languages, Presbyter. Priest. ●rebstre. ●rete. both French, and Italian: which is to take away the name that the Apostles and Fathers gave to the Priests of the Church, and to give it wholly and only to the order of Aaron. Rainoldes. Wholly and only to the order of Aaron? Nay, than I can abide your Rhemists no longer, if their mouths do so run over. For we give it also to the order of Melchisedec, n ●s. 110.4. Heb. 7.11. after the which our Saviour is is a Priest for ever. And they who charge us with falsehood and corruption in that we call the Ministers of the gospel, Elders: are guilty themselves of heresy and blasphemy in that they call them Priests. For they do not call them Priests in respect of the o 1. Pet. 〈…〉. spiritual sacrifices of p Heb. 13.15. Reu. 5.8. prayers and q Heb. 13.16. good works, which Christians of all sorts are bound to offer unto God, and thence are called r Phil. 4..8. 1. Pet. 2.5. Reu. 1.6. & 5.10. Priests in scripture: but they call them Priests in respect of the carnal and external sacrifice of the cursed Mass, wherein they pretend that they offer Christ under the forms of bread and wine to God his Father, a sacrifice propitiatory, that is, of force to pacify God, and reconcile him unto men. So, whereas the scripture doth teach that s Heb. 7.23. one Priest, by t Heb. 10.12. one sacrifice, u Heb. 7.27. & 9.28. once offered, that is, our Saviour Christ, by giving himself to death upon the cross hath reconciled God unto us, and sanctified us for ever: the doctrine of Rheims ordaineth many Priests, to offer up often, whether * The same, as they say in their Annotations on Heb. 10.11. An other. as they handle it, on Heb. 9.12. Which may be further perceived by D. Allen, de Eucharist. sacrific. cap. 10. & 23. whence the faltering speeches of the Rhemists flow. the same sacrifice that Christ, or an other, they speak staggeringly, but to offer it often. As though there were yet left x Heb. 10. ver. 18. an offering for sin after the death of Christ: or his precious blood were of no greater value than y ver. 4. the blood of bulls and goats, z ver. 2. which were offered often, because they could not purge sins. And this abomination they seek to maintain by the name of Priests, sith Priests are men (they say) appointed to sacrifice, and that name was given to them by the Apostles. In saying whereof they do play the Sophisters: and that with greater art than the simple can see. Which is, in that they use our English word [Priest] after a double sort: the one, as it is derived from presbyter; the other, as it signifieth the same that sacerdos. For Priest, as it signifieth a man appointed to sacrifice, is 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. sacerdos, and not presbyter. The name which the Apostles give a Minister of the gospel, is 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. presbyter, and not sacerdos. Which difference of words, necessary to be observed for the distinction of things between the Ministers of the old and the new testament, as the Apostles kept it in the tongue in which the new testament is written, so they who translated the testament into English were to keep it also. Wherefore it was not of falsehood and corruption, but of religious zeal of truth, that they called presbyter, an Elder, not a Priest. For sith the custom of our English speech hath made the name of Priest proper to a man appointed to sacrifice, such as were the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Priests after the order of Aaron in the old testament, the Priest after the order of Melchisedec in the new: the Ministers of the gospel, ordained, not (as Christ) to sacrifice to God, but to feed God's people with his word and sacraments, must have an other name 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. according to the scripture: and our English word, expressing that in scripture, is the name of Elders. But you by confusion of these sundry names do seek confusion of the things: and as thieves are wont to change the marks of things which they have stolen; so you, to make the Priesthood of Christ seem your own, do change names, as marks of things which they signify. For in steed of that which we call [an Elder] you would have [a Priest,] that your Massing Priests may be accounted a So the Rhemists speak of them: in their Annotat. Heb. ●. 12. Priests after the order of Melchisedec, as Christ is a Priest: and so your sacrifice of the Mass be thought the sovereign sacrifice, (as b D. Allen, in his Apology of the English Seminar. chap. 1. your Master calleth it,) wherein Christ is offered unto God his father. In the which conveyance, if you painted it with nought but colours of your own: the matter were less. For, c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Arist. in repre●en●. Sophist. the abusing of one name applied unto sundry things was a common shift of sophisters among the heathens. And you are to be borne with, if, having no better cause than they had, sometimes you adventure on the shifts that they did. But to abuse the credit of the Apostles to this sophistry, and say that they gave the name of Priests to Pastors of the Church of Christ: that is a fault that cannot be excused. For seeing our language doth mean by [Priests] sacrificers, which in their language are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and they never gave the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Pastors of the Christian Church: it followeth that they gave them not the name of Priests. Or if you reply, they gave them that name because they called them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, whence our English name of Priests is derived: yet you cannot say they called them Priests, as the name of Priest hath a relation to sacrifice: and therefore that name is nothing to the Mass, which you would prove by it. For so the word [Priest] must yet have two meanings: the one of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the other of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Whereof the one is given by the Apostles: but doth not imply authority to sacrifice. The other doth imply authority to sacrifice: but is not given by the Apostles, Hart. But sith the name of Priest is properly derived from the word presbyter, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Presbyter. Priest. Prebstre. 〈◊〉. or (as it is in Greek) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, not only in English, but in other languages, both French, and Italian: why did not your translators keep this according to the Greek, and devise an other for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is sacerdos, if they would needs distinguish them by different names. For it is (as I said) a notorious folly to apply willingly the word Priest to sacerdos, and to take it from presbyter whereof it is derived properly. Rainoldes. If our translators had been Lords of words, and might have forced men to take them in what sense they would: then had you spoken reason. For d Tyndal, in the obedience of a Christian man. he, whom others folowe● in our English translations, did note that if Antichrist had not deceived us with unknown and strange terms, to bring us into confusion & superstitious blindness, a Priest, that is, a sacrificer as Aaron was a Priest and sacrificed for the people, should have had some other name in English then Priest. Which he spoke in respect that the name of Priest, as it came from presbyter, betokening a Minister of the new testament, should not have been given to the Ministers of the old, who differ, as in function, so in name, by scripture. But you, in whose eyes our folly is notorious, for that we give the name of Priest to sacerdos, and take it from presbyter whereof it is derived properly: what say you (I pray) for your own translation in the fourth of the Acts, e The Rhe●i●● translation, Act. 4.13. where it is said of Peter and john the Apostles, that they were men unlettered and of the vulgar sort. Hart. Why? What fault find you with our translation in that? Rainoldes. I find not any fault; but I would know of you why you call them [men of the vulgar sort,] and not rather [idiots:] sith in the Greek text the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in Latin idiotae. Hart. That were a profane term for the Apostles, who were endued with heavenly wisdom. Rainoldes. It were so in deed. But if the derivation of words must be followed in translating authors: that term should have been given them. For the name of idiot is properly derived from the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Greek or 2 Idiota. Latin, not only in English but in other languages, both 3 Idiot. French and 4 Idiota. Italian, and (if that help) the 5 Ydiota. Spanish, 6 I dio●. Dutch, and 7 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Syriake too. Yea it cometh nearer in every one of these to the Latin word of the old translation (which you pretend to follow,) then the name of Priest in any of them doth to presbyter. Hart. But the word in English hath not the same meaning that it hath in Latin; and in translating things the sense must ●e kept. Nor is it to be marked so much whence a word is properly derived, as what it doth signify. Now it doth signify that which usually men understand by it. For the consent of men taking a word for this or that, doth make it to signify that for which they take it, as f De interpret. Aristotle showeth. Who frameth thereupon a rule, g Topico●. l. 2. that we must call things by those names, by which the common people calleth them. Wherefore sith the name of idiot in English is taken for a fool, or sot, and the Latin idiota where it is used in scripture doth signify the unlearned, such as the vulgar sort of men: we have translated it the vulgar, and not idiot, according to the meaning not the deriving of it. Neither may you therefore charge us with varying from the Latin text: which, as we pretend, so we do follow faithfully. For whereas S. 1. Cor. 14.16. Paul saith to the Corinthians, If thou bless in the spirit, how shall he that supplieth the place of the vulgar, say Amen upon thy blessing? in Latin, for the vulgar, it is idiotae. Which word if we should have translated, the idiot: we should have done injury to the common sort of rude unlearned men, whom it doth betoken, as you must needs acknowledge, who translate it the unlearned, as we do the vulgar. Rainoldes. True. But you may see then how wise your Rhemists are, who charge us with notorious folly because we give the name of Priest to sacerdos, and not to presbyter. For as the name of idiot, doth come from idiota, but is taken for a fool: so the name of Priest is derived from presbyter, but signifieth a sacrificer by custom of our English speech. Wherefore if your reason do prove that all Pastors of the Christian Church must be called Priests, and have authority to sacrifice; because they are presbyter●: it will prove as well that all unlearned Christians must be called idiots, and may be begged for fools, because they are idiotae. Which if you dare not say of unlearned Christians, though in very truth you deal with them as idiots when you make such reasons to approve your Mass & Massing Priests unto them: learn, by discharging yourselves in the one, to clear us of notorious folly in the other. For sith in translating things (as you confess) the sense must be kept, and the sense of words is that which usually men understand by them, and by the word Priest men understand sacerdos, that is to say, a man appointed to sacrifice: it followeth thereof that our translators did their duty, in giving the name of Priests to them only, to whom the Priestly function in scripture doth appropriate it. As for your Rhemists who still do translate sacerdos a Priest, as granting that we have no other English wo●d for it, and yet translate presbyter by the same word too: they do join together that which God hath severed; and the words, which the holy Ghost hath distinguished, they wittingly confound. Wherein they do lewdly abuse the simple Christians, who are unskilful in the tongues, to make them in love with the whorish sacrifice of the idolatrous Mass; and alienate their minds from the true religion professed in the Church of England. For the name of Priest, as it hath relation to sacrifice, is sacerdos: which word your i Con cil. Trident. session. 2▪ cap. 1.2.3.6. & 7. can. 2. & 8. Trent-fathers' do therefore use in handling the sacrifice of the Mass. Now because the name of 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. sacerdos is not given to the Ministers of the gospel in the new testament: your Rhemists make 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the name, that is given them, the same in * Priest. English with sacerdos. To the intent, that the simple, not seeing the sleight, may conceive thereby that ministers of the gospel are Priests ordained to sacrifice: and so may loath our Ministers, who neither do sacrifice, nor list to be called Priests; and may embrace your Priests, who profess themselves to be Priests, yea Mass priests, and are sent to sacrifice, as it is showed in k The Apolog. of the English Semin. chapped 6. your Apology of the English Seminaries. Hart. That learned Apology, which D. Allen wrote in the defence of our Seminaries, doth justly blame your new pulpits, (the very chairs of the scornful,) for calling us by that term merrily or mockingly. Psalm. 1. For the Church of God knoweth no other Priests, neither hath Christ instituted any other order of Priests, but of these▪ whom contemptuously you do call mass-priests. Rainoldes. So D. Allen saith. But he proveth neither Priests nor Mass, by scripture: unless the Mass be the chair; and the Priests be the scornful. Hart. Though he allege not the scripture there to prove them, yet hath he done it other where: as in his Latin treatise of the sacrifice of the Mass, and in our Annotations on the testament in English, wherein his hand was chiefest. * The Rhemists' Annotations on Heb. 7.23. For Esay doth specially prophesy of the Priests of the new testament (as S. jerom declareth upon the same place) in these words: l isaiah. 61.6. You shall be called the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Priests of God, the 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Ministers of our God shall it be said unto you. And as here the Ministers of God are called Priests, in that very term which yourself confess hath a relation to sacrifice: so, that they did sacrifice, you may perceive too by the m Act. 13.2. Acts of the Apostles, where it is written of Prophets and Doctors in the Church at Antioch, that they were ministering to our Lord. For 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the Greek signifieth that they were sacrificing: and so Erasmus translated. Whereby it is meant that they did say Mass: and the Greek Fathers hereof had their name Liturgy, which Era●mus translateth Mass, saying Missa Chrysostomi. Howbeit we translate it, ministering, and not sacrificing, or saying Mass, though we might: if we would (as you do) boldly turn what text we list, and flee from one language to another for the advantage of our cause. But we keep our text: as the translators of the scriptures should do most religiously. Rainoldes. Your n Vulgar. translat. ministrantibus. text then doth say, that the Prophets & Doctors at Antioch were ministering▪ but you, to prove the Mass, do reprove your text. For if the Greek signify that they were sacrificing, and your text translated the Greek into Latin: how did your text keep his text, when he translated it, not sacrificing but ministering? Will you say that the author of your old translation ( o Concil. Tridentin. session. 4. which only is approved by your men as authentical) did not perform that duty which the translators of the scriptures ought most religiously? You do so for advantage. But in this point you do him injury. For though the word may (by consequent) import to sacrifice, when sacrifice is a service pertaining unto them whose ministery it betokeneth, as where it is spoken of 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Num. 18.6. Levites and 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Heb. 10.11. Priests: yet doth it properly signify to minister, either in public function (after p Of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the original thereof) or in any; as magistrates are called 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Rom. 13.6. the ministers of God, and Angels are said to be 7 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hebr. 1.14. ministering spirits, and the Gentiles are willed 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Rom. 15.27. to minister unto the jews in relieving of their necessity. In so much that the learnedst of your own translators, Isidorus Clarius, and Arias Montanus, who both have turned the new testament out of Greek into Latin, q Isidor. Clar. 1564. Venet. the one approved by the Deputies of the Trent-councel, r Tom. 8. Regior. Biblior. 1572. Antuerp. the other by the Doctors of Lovan, do both of them translate it in this very place of the Acts of the Apostles not sacrificing, but ministering; which their affection to the Mass would have been loath to do, unless the truth had forced them to it. How much the more shameful is the demeanour of your Rhemists, who, where they carp us, as leaving the Greek for the advantage of our cause, themselves for the advantage of their own cause do clip the meaning of the Greek: against, I say not, the judgement of s Etymolog. in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Sui●as, in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Bud. Henr. St. Grammarians, even t Lexic. Graec. Tom. 6. Regior. Biblior. such as seek to help them most, but against the common use of it in scripture, against their old text, against their new translations, yea, against their own conscience, as that which you alleged out of the Prophet Esay, (where they have Englished it, 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the Ministers,) doth show. And herein their dealing is so much the worse, because they set it out with the name of Erasmus; as if he meant by [sacrificing] the saying of Mass: which is far from him. For although by reason u Era●m. annotat. in Act. Apost. 13.2. & epist. ad Heb. 8.2. he thought that the word doth properly signify, not simply to minister, but to minister in holy things, as they who serve in the Priesthood, therefore he did translate it that the Prophets & Doctors in the Church at Antioch were sacrificing to the Lord: yet he saith x Paraphr. & Annot. in Acta Apost. 13.2. that hereby is meant that they employed their gifts to God's glory, and the salvation of the Church, the Prophets in propheciing, the Doctors in teaching the doctrine of the Gospel. So he understandeth nothing else by sacrificing, than others do by ministering, or rather than the scripture doth: as it is observed out of the circumstances of the text by y Ar. Montanus in Elucidation. Card. Caietanus, & ●o. Ferus, in Comment. in Acta Apost. the best of your own interpreters. Who seeing that the men were Prophets, and Doctors, which are said to have been ministering to the Lord, thereupon do gather that they served him in executing their own ministery, that is to say, the ministery of prophesying, and teaching. In which sort z Oecumenius & Theophylactus in exposed. in Acta Apost●e Chrysostom. & Graces Patrib. the Greek fathers do expound it also: 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. what meaneth the word ministering? (say they,) it meaneth preaching. Wherefore if the name of Liturgy were taken hereof, by the Greek fathers, as your Rhemists add: it is a good hearing, but so much the less will it prove your Mas●e. For if they understood preaching, by ministering, when the word is spoken of Prophets, and Doctors: it is the more likely that when they applied it to the ministery of the Pastors, ● service of the Church, they meant the public prayers and other holy functions which we do call Divine service. As in truth they did. For that which we call evening prayer, they called 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Theodoret. hist. eccles. l. 4. c. 14. the evening Liturgy, as you would say the service done to God at evening: and in the very Liturgy, that is called Chrysostom's, because he made some part of it belike, not all, for himself a Chrysost. li●urg. Graec. excas. Paris. 1560. therein is prayed too; but in that very Liturgy the word is applied to 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the Church's service in the same manner as it is to the service which 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Angels b isaiah. 6.3. Reu. 4.8. & 5.12. do to God. And I hope you will not affirm that the Angels do say Mass in heaven. Wherefore howsoever Erasmus did translate it after the phrase of his time, wherein the Church's service was commonly called Missa: the ministery mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles doth not prove that sacrifice of which you would infer your Priesthood. As for the place of Esay, in which it is written, you shall be called the Priests of God, the Ministers of our God shall it be said unto you: the course of the text doth seem to mean by Priests all the servants of God, whom c 1. Pet. 2.5. Peter calleth an holy Priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by jesus Christ. For d isaiah. 61. ver. 1. the words are spoken as in Christ's person to e ver. 2. all the faithful and repentant, f ver. 3. who should be trees of righteousness, g ver. 4. to build up the Church: and thereupon are promised that h ver. 5. their enemies shall serve them, and i ver. 6. they shall serve God. But in an other place of Esay, (I grant,) the name of Priest is given to Pastors and Elders: k isaiah. 66.21. where speaking of the calling and conversion of the Gentiles, And of them (saith he) will I take for Priests, for Levites, saith the Lord. Hart. S. jerom doth expound the former place of them also. But all is one to my purpose. For seeing that Pastors and Elders (as you term them) are called Priests in scripture, and the name of Priest implieth (you confess) authority to sacrifice: it followeth that Pastors and Elders are Priests authorized to sacrifice. Now the Priest that hath authority to sacrifice, is he, whom you do call a masspriest. Wherefore both Mass and Priests are proved by the scripture. Rainoldes. Why? Think you that every Christian man and woman is a masspriest, because the name of l Reu. 1 5. & 5.10. Priests is given them by scripture in respect of m 1. Pe●. 2▪ 5. spiritual sacrifices which they must offer unto God? Hart. No. Because the sacrifices that they must offer, are spiritual: and are called sacrifices by a borrowed kind of speech, and not properly. But the sacrifice which is offered to God in the Mass, is an external, visible, true, and proper sacrifice, as it is declared by n Session. 22. c. 1. visibile sacrificium. c. 2. veré propitiatorium. can. 1. verum & proprium sacrificium. the Council of Trent. So that the Priests ordained to offer this sacrifice are properly called Priests: whereas other Christians are called so improperly, according to the nature of the sacrifices which they offer. Rainoldes. Then the name of Priests alleged out of Esay doth not prove your masspriests. For he doth call the Ministers of the gospel Priests, in respect of the spiritual sacrifices which they must offer. And that appeareth by o isaiah. 66.20. the words going next before: in which the Lord declaring (even by S. jeroms judgement too) that he would call the jews to the same honour, that by the name of Priests is signified: and they (saith he) shall bring the Gentiles for an offering to the Lord, as the children of Israel offer in a clean vessel in the house of the Lord. So to bring the Gentiles as an offering to the Lord, is that, for which they, who do bring such offerings, are named Priests and Levites. p Comment. in ea verba Esaiae, Quomodo si inferant filii Israel munus. But the offering up of the Gentiles unto him, is a spiritual sacrifice: made by the Ministers of Christ (as q Rom. 15.16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Paul showeth) when they convert the Gentiles through the preaching of the gospel. The sacrifice therefore, in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospel are called Priests by Esay, is a spiritual sacrifice. And as every faithful person is a Priest, because we must offer, each his own body, r Rom. 12.1. a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God: so that name is given to Ministers of the gospel, because they are called to offer up the bodies of other men in like sort. Wherefore if private Christians are not masspriests, because their sacrifices are spiritual: then sith the Ministers must offer up the like sacrifices, it followeth by your answer that neither they are masspriests. Hart. The Ministers of the gospel must offer up the like sacrifices: I deny it not. And in that respect it is true, that neither they, nor private Christians are proved to be masspriests. But there is an other, an external sacrifice, that Ministers must offer also: even that which our Lord in the prophet Malachi doth call s Mal. 1.11. a clean oblation, and saith that in every place it is sacrificed and offered to his name, because his name is great among the Gentiles. And that is the sacrifice, in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospel are called Priests properly, and are indeed mass-priests. For the clean oblation is the sacrifice of the Mass, wherein the body and blood of Christ is offered up unto God his father, as t Concil. Trid. Sess. 22. cap. 1. the Council showeth, an oblation that cannot be defiled by the unworthiness or wickedness of them who offer it. Rainoldes. What? And be your Priests of the tribe of Levi, who offer up this sacrifice? Hart. No sir, nor of the jews: but they are Christian Priests. Rainoldes. But they, who must offer the sacrifice that is spoken of in the prophet Malachi, are of the tribe of Levi. For afterward u Mal. 3.3. entreating of * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the same oblation, or offering (as we call it,) that shall be offered unto God in the time of the gospel, he saith that the Lord shall fine the sons of Levi, and purify them as gold, and silver, that they may offer an offering unto God in righteousness. Wherefore if the offering that Malachi doth speak of, be the sacrifice of the Mass, that is, a sacrifice properly: then the proper Priests, by whom it is offered, are the jewish Priests after the order of Aaron, even the sons of Levi. But if the sons of Levi betoken (by a figure) the spiritual Levites, that is, all the faithful, whom Christ in the new testament hath made x 1. Pet. 2.9. a royal Priesthood, y Reu. 1.6. even Kings and Priests to God his father, as your z Arias Montanus comment. in Malach. c. 3. Montanus well expoundeth it: then must the offering (by a figure) signify the spiritual sacrifice, which Christians of all sorts are bound to offer unto God. And in truth, as a Matt. 11.14. Christ said of john Baptist, If you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come, meaning, that b Mal. 4.5. the Prophet did signify john Baptist by the name of Elias: so I may say to you touching the spiritual sacrifices of Christians, If you will receive it, this is the clean offering which should in every place be offered to the Lord. For the Prophets, when they spoke of the gospel of Christ, and the religious worship of God c joh. 4.23. in spirit and truth, (which Gentiles converted by the preaching of the gospel should serve him in, through all the world:) are wont to describe it by figurative speeches drawn from the external and carnal worship of God in the ceremonies of the law. So they say that d isaiah. 19.19. there shall be an altar of the Lord in the mids of the land of Egypt; that e isaiah. 56.7. God will accept the burnt offerings and sacrifices of strangers upon his altar; that f isaiah. 60. ●. all the sheeepe of Kedar shall be offefered on it, and the rams of Nebaioth; that g Zac. 14. ver. 16 the Gentiles shall go up to keep the feast of tabernacles from year to year h ver. 17. unto jerusalem, and i ver. 21. every pot in jerusalem and juda shall be holy to the Lord of hosts, and all they who sacrifice shall come & take of them and seethe therein; finally, that k Mal. 3.4. the offering of juda and jerusalem shallbe sweet unto the Lord, as in the days of old and in the years afore. Wherefore, as the Prophets do mention an offering which the Christian Church shall offer unto God in the time of the gospel: so do they mention burnt offerings, and sacrifices, the sheep of Kedar, the rams of Nebaioth, to be offered on an altar; they mention jerusalem to be gone unto, the feast of tabernacles to be kept, the flesh of beasts sacrificed to be sodde in pots, the Levites to be the Ministers who shall make the offering in righteousness to God. But neither doth l Heb. 7. 1●. the Priesthood of the Levites continue, neither is m joh. 4.21. jerusalem the place to worship God, neither are n Gal. 4.10. the jewish feasts the times to do it, nor will he be served o Heb. 10. ●. with sacrifice, and offering, if they be taken properly. The Prophets therefore meant by an allegory (as we term it) to show that all Christians should, as Priests, and Levites; offer up themselves, and theirs, as sacrifices; at all times, as solemn feasts; in all places, as in jerusalem. And so the clean offering, whereof the Prophet Malachi saith it shallbe offered in every place unto the Lord, doth signify not a sacrifice to be made upon an altar, as your p Concil. Trident. Sess. 22. cap. 1. Council would have it, but the spiritual sacrifice which S. q 1. Tim. 2.8. Paul exhorteth the faithful to offer, when he willeth men to pray in every place, lifting up pure hands without wrath & doubting. Hart. The Prophets speak much in deed of things to come not properly, and simply, but figuratively, by obscure speeches, and allegories, and parables, that must be understood otherwise then they are written as r Adverse. Martion. lib. 3. Tertullian noteth. But the name of altar is used properly for a material altar by the Apostle to the Hebrews, saying, s Heb. 13.10. we have an altar whereof they have not power to eat which serve the tabernacle. For he putteth them in mind by these words, that in following too much their old jewish rites they deprived themselves of an other manner & a more excellent sacrifice and meat: meaning, of the holy altar, and Christ's own blessed body offered and eaten there. Of which they that continue in the figures of the old law could not be partakers. This altar (saith t In Leuitic●● lib. 6. cap. 21. Isychius) is the altar of Christ's body, which the jews for their incredulity must not behold. And the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Greek word (as also the 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hebrew answering thereunto in the old testament) signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on, and not a metaphorical and spiritual altar. Wherefore seeing that we have a very altar in the proper sense, and the name of altar doth import a sacrifice that is offered on it: it followeth that the body of Christ upon the altar is a very sacrifice in the proper sense. And that out of doubt is the clean offering which the Prophet speaketh of: according as the Council of Trent hath defined. Rainoldes. And are you out of doubt that by the words, we have an altar, the Apostle meaneth a material altar, such as your altars u Durand. ration. divin. office lib. 1. cap. 7. made of stone. Hart. What else? a very altar. Rainoldes. And they who have not power to eat of this altar are the stubborn jews, who keep the ceremonies of the law. Hart. The jews, and such profane men. Rainoldes. Then your masspriests may and do use to ●ate of this altar. Hart. They do. And what then? Rainoldes. Their teeth be good and strong, if they eat of an altar that is made of stone. Are ye sure that they eat of it? Hart. Eat of an altar? As though ye knew not, that, by the altar, the sacrifice which is offered upon the altar is signified. They eat of Christ's body, which thereby is meant. Rainoldes. Is it so? Then the word [altar] is not taken for a very altar in the proper sense, but figuratively for the body of Christ the which was sacrificed and offered. Neither is it taken for the body of Christ, in that respect that Christ is offered in the sacrament, in the which sort he is * That is to say, not in the truth of the thing, but in a mystery betokening it, as it is n●ted out of S. Austin. c Hoc est. de consecr. distinct. 2. mystically offered as often as the faithful do eat of that bread, and drink of that cup, wherein the breaking of his body and shedding of his blood is represented to them: but in that respect that Christ was offered on the cross, in the which sort he was truly offered not often, but x Heb. 9.28. once, to take away the sins of many, and y Heb. 10. ver. ●0. to sanctify them z ver. 14. for ever who believe in him. Hart. Nay, the ancient Father Isychius expoundeth it of the body of Christ in the sacrament, (as I showed) which the jews must not behold. They might behold his body upon the cross, and did so. Rainoldes. But the holy Apostle himself doth understand it of the body of Christ as it was offered on the cross. And that is manifest by the words he addeth to show his meaning touching the jews and the altar. a Hebr. 13.11. For (saith he) the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high Priest for sin, are burnt without the camp. Therefore even jesus, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Which words are somewhat dark, but they will be plain, if we consider both the thing that the Apostle would prove, and the reason by which he proveth it. The thing that he would prove, is, that the jews can not be partakers of the fruit of Christ's death and the redemption which he purchased with his precious blood, if they still retain the ceremonial worship of the law of Moses. The reason by which he proveth it, is an ordinance of God in a kind of sacrifices appointed by the law to be offered for sin, which sacrifices shadowed Christ, and taught this doctrine. For whereas b Leu. 6.16. & 7.6. the Priests who served the tabernacle in the ceremonies of the law, had a part of other sacrifices and offerings and did eat of them: c Leu. 4.3. & 16.15. there were certain beasts commanded to be offered for sin in special sort, and their blood to be brought into the holy place, d Leu. 6.30. whose bodies might not be eaten, but must be burnt without the camp. Now, by these sacrifices offered so for sin, our only sovereign sacrifice jesus Christ was figured: who e Heb. 9.12. entered by his blood into the holy place, f 1. joh. 1.7. & 2.2. to cleanse us from all sin; and g joh. 19.20. his body was crucified without the gate, that is, the gate of the city of jerusalem; and they who keep the Priestly rites of Moses law, can not h joh. 6.51. eat of him, that by his death they may live: for none shall live by him who seek to be saved by the law, as it is written, i Gal. 5.1. if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. The Apostle therefore exhorting the Hebrews k Heb. 13. ver. ● to 'stablish their hearts with grace, that teacheth them to serve the Lord in spirit and truth after the doctrine of the gospel, not with meats, that is to say, with the ceremonies of the law, a part whereof was the difference between unclean and clean in meats: doth move them to it with this reason, that l ver. 10. if they serve the tabernacle, and stick unto the rites of the jewish Priesthood, their souls shall have no part of the food of our sacrifice, no fruit of Christ's death. For, m ver. 11. as the bodies of those beasts which were offered for sin, and their blood brought into the holy place by the high Priest, might not be eaten by the Priests, but were burnt without the camp: n ver. 12. so neither may the keepers of the Priestly ceremonies have life by feeding upon Christ, who (to show this mystery) did suffer death without the gate, when he shed his blood to cleanse the people from their sin. And thus it appeareth by the text itself that the name of altar betokeneth the sacrifice, that is to say, Christ crucified: not as his death is showed forth in the sacrament, but as he did suffer death without the gate. Whereby you may perceive, first, the folly of your Rhemists about the Greek word, (as also the Hebrew) that it signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on: as though it might not therefore be used figuratively; where yet themselves must needs acknowledge it to be so too. Next, the weakness of your reason, who thereof do gather, that, by the sacrifice, which that word importeth in the Apostle, is meant the clean offering of which the Prophet speaketh. For, the clean offering, of which the Prophet speaketh, is offered o Mal. 1.11. in every place: the sacrifice meant by the Apostle, in one place only, p Heb. 13.12. without the gate. Wherefore the name of altar in the epistle to the Hebrews doth neither signify a Massing-altar, nor prove the sacrifice of Massingpriests. Hart. That which you touch, as foolishly noted by our q In thei● Annot. on Heb. 13.10. Rhemists, about the Greek and Hebrew word, is noted very truly. For you can not deny yourself, but that it signifieth properly an altar, a material altar to sacrifice upon, and not a metaphorical and spiritual altar. Whereby as they conclude that we have not a common table, or profane communion board to eat mere bread upon, but a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christ's body upon: so for proof hereof they add, that, in respect of the said body sacrificed, it is also called an altar of the Fathers, even of r In ora●. de sorore Gorgonia. Gregory Nazianzene, s Demonst. quód Christus sit Deus. Chrysostom, t Histor. eccles. lib. 1. cap. 20. & 25. Socrates, u Epist. 86. De civet. Dei. lib. 8. cap. 27. & lib. 22. cap. 30. Co●●ess. lib. 9 cap. 11. & ●3. Contr. Fau●●um Manich. lib. 20. cap. 21. Augustine, and x 〈◊〉 ●3. Matt. Theophylact. And when it is called a table, it is in respect of the heavenly food of Christ's body and blood received. Rainoldes. The note of your Rhemists, about the Greek & Hebrew word, is true (I grant,) yet foolish too: though true in the thing, yet foolish in the drift. For to the intent that where the Apostle saith, we have an altar, it may be thought he meant not that word spiritually, or in a figurative sense, as we expound it of Christ, but materially of a very altar such as is used in their Masses: they say that the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Greek word (as also the 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hebrew answering thereunto in the old testament) signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on, and not a metaphorical and spiritual altar. Which speech how dull it is in respect of the point to which they apply it: I will make you see by an example of their own. Our Saviour in the gospel teacheth of himself that he is y joh. 6. ver. 32. the true bread, z ver. 33. which giveth life unto the world; a ver. 50. the bread which came down from heaven, that whosoever eateth of it should not die: b ver. 51. if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever. Your c In their Annotations on joh. 6.32. Rhemists do note hereon, that the person of Christ incarnate is meant under the metaphor of bread, and our belief in him is signified by eating. Wherein they say well. But if a man should tell them that the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Greek word (as also the 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hebrew answering thereunto in the old testament) doth properly signify bread which we eat bodily, and not a metaphorical or spiritual bread: were not this as true a speech as their own? Yet how wise to the purpose, who is so blind that seeth not? Yea, to go no farther than the very word, whereof by their Hebrew and Greek they seek advantage: themselves, upon that place of d Reu. 6.9. john that he saw under the altar the souls of them who were killed for the word of God, do affirm expressly that Christ is this altar. Christ (say they) as man, no doubt is this altar. They mean it (I hope) in a metaphorical, or other figurative speech. For they will not make him by transubstantiation to be an altar properly. Yet here it is as true that the 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Greek word (as also the 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hebrew answering thereunto in the old testament) signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on, and not a metaphorical or spiritual altar. And if it were as much for the advantage of their cause to prove that Mass is said in heaven, as that in earth; and, that Christ is properly bread without a figure, as that bread is properly Christ in the sacrament: the text of the scripture where Christ is called bread, yea the true bread, would prove the one clearly, as they could fit it with this note; and the word altar, would put the other out of controversy, chiefly if that were noted withal, that e Reu. 8.3. an Angel stood before the altar having a golden censer, though f Are●has in collect. exposit. in Apocalyp. cap. 8. Rupert. comment. in Acalyps. lib. 5. others there also affirm the altar to be Christ. But it fareth with your Rhemists, as it is wont with g Ezek. 13.10 false prophets: 1 Allen, in his treatise of the sacrifice of the Mass. one buildeth up a muddy wall, and 2 The Rhemists in their Annotations on the new Testament. others daub it over with a rotten plaster, and when a storm cometh, the wall falleth and plaster with it. For though, as they lay it on, it seemeth handsome, that words signify properly the natural things which they are used to signify, and not metaphorical or spiritual things: yet if it be opened that hereby is meant that words may not be used (by metaphors, or other figures) to signify those things which properly they do not signify, the boys in grammar schools, who know what a metaphor is, will laugh at it. Wherefore this plaster will not help the weakness of your muddy wall, I mean of the conclusion which you would prove by it and do infer upon it, that we have an altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christ's body upon. In the daubing up whereof yet your plasterer do show a piece of greater art: partly, by drawing us into hatred who have not Popish altars, but communion tables; partly, by winding the names of Fathers in, as if they made for you against us. Both, with skill and cunning: but more of sophistry, than divinity. For that which the scripture doth call h 1. Cor. 10.21. the Lords table, because it is ordained for i 1. Cor. 11.20. the Lords supper in the administration of the blessed sacrament of his body and blood: k Gregor. Nazianzen. orat. in la●d. Basilii. Chrysost. demonstr. quód Christus sit Deus. Homil. in Matt. 16. & 83. in prior. ep. ad Corinth. 24. & 27. ad populum Antioch. 60. & 61▪ Sermon. de Eucharist. & de B. Philogonio. Socrat. hist. eccles. lib. 1. cap. 20. & 25. Augustin. epist. 59 ad Paulin. Tract. in johann. 26. de verbis Domini Serm. 46. Theophylact. in prior. epist. ad Corinth. cap. 11. the Fathers also call it a table in respect of the heavenly banquet that is served upon it. And this in proper sense. Marry, by a figure of speech, by which the names of things that are like one an other in some quality, are given one unto an other, as l Ezek. 34.23. Christ is called David; m Mal. 4.5. john Baptist, Elias; n Reu. 17.5. the city of Rome, Babylon; o isaiah. 62.9. the Church of God, jerusalem: the Fathers for resemblance of the Ministers and sacraments in the new testament to them in the old, are wont to give the name, as of p Pruden●ius hymn. de S. Lau●ent. Conc. Carth. 2. can. ●. ●sidor. etymo●ogiar. lib. 7. cap. 1ST. Priests, and Levites, to Pastors, and Deacons; so of a sacrifice, to the Lords supper; and of an altar, to the Lords table. For these things are linked by nature in relation, and mutual dependence (as I may say) one of an other: 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the altar, 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the sacrifice, and 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the sacrificers who serve the altar, that is, Priests and Levites. Wherefore if the Fathers meant a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christ's body upon: then must they mean also q Ambros. de officiis lib. 1. c. 50. Leo epist. 79. ad Dioscorum. the Levitical Priesthood to serve in sacrificing of it. But r Heb. 7.11. the levitical Priesthood is gone, and they knew it: neither did they call the ministery of the Gospel so, but by a figure. Your Rhemists therefore do abuse them, in proving, as by them, that the communion table is called an altar properly. But us of the other side they do abuse more, by setting an altar against a common table in such sort of speech, as if we, whose Churches have not a very altar to kill our Saviour Christ and sacrifice him upon it, had but a common table and profane communion board to eat mere bread upon. A feat to make us odious in the eyes of men, whom you would persuade that we discern not the body of the Lord. Which your privy slander doth us open injury. For we have not a common, but a holy table, as both s The book o● common prayer, in the communion. we call it, and esteem it; not a profane communion board, but a sanctified; to eat, not mere bread, but the Lords supper; wherein we receive the bread of thanksgiving and the cup of blessing, as t 1. Cor. 10.16. & 11.23. the Apostles doctrine and practice of u justin. Mart. in Apolog. 2. Irenae. lib. 4. cap. 34. & lib. 5. cap. 4. Cyprian. epist. 63. ad Caecilium. Ambros. de sacrament. lib. 4. & 5. Leo Sermon. 4. de quadrages. the Fathers teach us. Yourselves are guilty rather of feeding men with mere bread, x Concil. Constantiens. Sess. 13. & Trident. Sess. 21. cap. ●. can. 2. who do take away the cup of the new testament in the blood of Christ from the Christian people; and in steed of the blessed bread of the sacrament do give in your Masses mere bread in deed by your own confession, y Durand. in Rational. divinor. office lib. 4. cap. 53. the common bread that goeth under the name of * Panis benedictus sanctae communioni● vicarius. holybread. I would to God, M. Hart, you would think with yourself, even in your bed, (as z Psal. 4.4. the Prophet speaketh,) and consider more deeply both the wicked abuses wherewith the holy sacrament of the Lords supper is profaned in your unholy sacrifice of the Mass; and the treacherous means whereby your Master and Fellows of the College of Rheims do seek to maintain it. Who being not able to prove it by the scriptures either of the altar, or of the clean offering, the principal places whereon their show standeth: they go about to breed a good opinion of it in the hearts of the simple, partly, by discrediting us with false reproaches; partly, by abusing the credit of the Fathers. Which two kinds of proof do bear the greatest sway through all your Rhemish Annotations. Hart. We do not abuse the credit of the Fathers to persuade an error: but as we endeavour to follow them in truth, so allege we them to prove the truth by them. And howsoever you avoid the place of S. Paul, where it is said, we have an altar: the prophecy of Malachi, that in every place there is sacrificed and offered a clean offering to God, must needs belong to the very and outward sacrifice of the Mass, not to spiritual sacrifices. Which because that reverend man, D▪ Allen, whose treatise of the Mass is such a moat in your eye, a Alan. de Eucharist. sacrific. cap. 5. doth prove by six reasons, 1 Argumenta valida, & pla●é bona. the pith whereof he greatly praiseth: I will bring them forth in his own words, that you may yield the rather to them. First therefore, the word to sacrifice and to offer, being used by itself 2 Sine termino d●minuente. without a term abridging it, is taken in the scripture always properly for the act of outward sacrifice. But when it is said, the sacrifice of praise, the sacrifice of crying, the sacrifice of contrition, and the like: it is perceived easily by the words annexed that they be taken improperly. Secondly, this sacrifice, of the which the Prophet speaketh, is one: but spiritual sacrifices there are so many as there are good works of Christian religion. Thirdly, this is the proper and peculiar sacrifice of the new law, and the Gentiles, not of the jews. But spiritual sacrifices of prayers and works are common to the jews with us. Fourthly, this that Malachi meaneth doth succeed the sacrifices of the jews, and is offered in their steed: but prayer, fasting, and the works of charity do not succeed any, but are joined and coupled to every kind of sacrifices. Fifthly, our works (chiefly in the judgement of heretics) are defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful: but this Prophetical offering is 3 Peruse munda est, & ita per se m●nda. clean of itself, and so clean of itself in comparison of the old sacrifices, that it cannot be polluted any way by us or by the worst Priests. For here, in our testament, they cannot choose all the best to themselves, and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the feeble, the lame, and the sick, as before in the old: because there is now one sacrifice so appointed, that it cannot be changed; so clean, that no work of ours can distain it. Finally, the Fathers, and all that ever have expounded this place of purpose catholicly, have expounded it of the sacrifice of the Mass: yea then, when they speak of the sacrifice of prayer, yea or of spiritual sacrifice. Wherein the heretics deceive and are deceived. For the Fathers call our sacrifice some times an offering of prayer, and a spiritual sacrifice, because it is made with blessing and with prayer mystical: because 4 Victima hic existens. the victim that is here, hath not a gross, carnal, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victims of the jews. See Tertullian in the third book against Martion, in the end; justin, in Trypho; Irenaeus, in the fourth book, the two and thirtieth chapter; jerom, on the eighth of Zacharie; Austin, in the first book against the adversary of the law, and the eighteenth chapter; albeit in the second book against the letters of Petilian he doth expound it of the sacrifice of praise: Cyprian also, in the first book the sixteenth chapter against the jews; cyril, in the book of worshipping in spirit and truth; Eusebius, in the first book of preparation of the gospel; Damascen, in the fourth book of the Catholic faith, and the fourteenth chapter; Theodoret, upon the first chapter of Malachi. Thus far D. Allen. By whom you may perceive, that we bring the right opinion of the Fathers, with many other reasons out of the circumstances of the text itself, to prove that the clean offering in the Prophet Malachi doth signify the sacrifice of the blessed Mass. Rainoldes. Nay, I may perceive that D. Allen bringeth the names of the Fathers, though Damascen a child in respect of the rest, far in years beneath them, & farther in judgement; but their names he bringeth, he bringeth not their right opinion. For if their opinion be searched & examined, it maketh nothing for him. And therefore he doth only name them & quote them. Which point of his wisdom your Rhemists follow much. Many other reasons he bringeth, I grant, besides the names of Fathers: but it had been better for him not to bring them. For Tertullian, justin, Irenaeus, jerom, Austin, Cyprian, cyril, Eusebius, Damascen, and Theodoret, would make a fair show with their names alone, if the other reasons and they were set a sunder. Now, being matched in a band together, and agreeing no better than b isaiah 9.21. Ephraim with Manasses, and Manasses with Ephraim, who did eat up one another, they mar the matter with their discord. That, as the Emperor Adrian said, c Dio Nicaeus: i● Adriano. when he was dying, The multitude of physicians hath cast away the Emperor: so may you complain, the multitude of reasons hath cast away the proof, which your Mass did hope to procure by Malachi. Hart. Not so. But their multitude helpeth one an other. For many things, which singled by themselves are weak, are strong if they be joined: and d Eccles. 4.12. a three fold chord is not easily broken. Rainoldes. This is a rope of sand rather, than a chord: it will not hang together. For whereas D. Allen doth thus allege e Mal. ●. 11. Malachi after your f In omni loco sacrificatur & offertur nomini meo oblatio munda. old translation, in every place there is sacrificed and offered a clean offering to my name, saith the Lord of hosts: the Hebrew text, and after the Hebrew the Greek of the seventy interpreters (which the Fathers follow) do set it down thus; in every place there is g Heb. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Latin, incensum offertur nomini meo & oblatio munda. incense offered to my name, and a clean offering. Now the word [incense] is used in the scripture simply for prayers, in the fifth chapter of the Revelation: where h revel. 5.8. the golden vials of the four and twenty Elders are full of * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. odours, or incenses (to keep the word,) which are the prayers of the Saints. And so do i Iren. lib. 4. cap. 33. Euseb. de praeparat. evang. lib. 1. Hieron. in Zachar cap. 8. August. contr. advers. legis. lib. 1. cap. 20. the Fathers expound the same in Malachi. Wherefore the first reason which you rehearsed of D. Allens, that the word [to sacrifice] being used by itself without a term abridging it, is taken in the scripture always properly for the act of outward sacrifice, is false, both in itself, and by the judgement of the Fathers. For that word of his, is incense in the Father's according to the scripture. But incense in the scripture is taken for prayers figuratively. By the judgement therefore and exposition of the Fathers, that word doth not infer the sacrifice of the Mass, but our spiritual sacrifices. Hart. In deed S. john expoundeth in the Apocalypse those odours to be the prayers of the Saints. But thereby it is plain (as k In the Rhemish Annot. on the Apocalyp. 5.8. we note upon it) that the Saints in heaven offer up the prayers of faithful and holy persons in earth (called here Saints, and in the scripture often) unto Christ. And among so many divine and unsearchable mysteries set down without exposition, it pleased God yet, that the Apostle himself should open this one point unto us, that these odours be * That is to say, the praises. the laudes and prayers of the faithful, ascending and offered up to God as incense, by the Saints in heaven. That so you may have no excuse of your error, that the Saints have no knowledge of our affairs or desires. Rainoldes. You are too too flitting on every occasion from the present point in question to others. And yet, if we should enter into that controversy about the worship of saints: that honour which you give them would find no succour here. For neither doth it follow that we must pray to them though they did offer up our prayers; neither is it certain, that the Saints in heaven only are represented in the four and twenty Elders; neither, if they be, can you prove that the prayers of Saints, which they offer, are other men's prayers, they may be their own. And for my part I do rather think that the four and twenty Elders represent all the Saints and faithful both in heaven and earth, who offer up their own prayers as incense to God. For after that S. john had said that l Reu. 5. ver. ●. the odours are the prayers of the Saints: he addeth, that m ver. 9 they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof, because thou wast killed and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and hast made us Kings and Priests unto our God, and we shall reign upon the earth. By the which words it seemeth that he openeth what the prayers are which they offer to Christ. And sith they, who offer them, do say of themselves that Christ hath made them Kings and Priests, which S. john n Reu. 1.6. before affirmeth of the Saints on earth: it may be that they also, and not the Saints in heaven only, are represented by the four and twenty Elders. Hart. Nay: o Reu. 4.4. the four and twenty Elders are described with golden crowns upon their heads. And the crown is given to Saints in heaven, as it is written: p Reu. 2.10. Be thou faithful until death, and I will give thee the crown of life. Rainoldes. The reward of life, given to the Saints in heaven q 2. Tim. 2.5. when they have strived as they ought to do, and gotten the victory, is called * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a crown, or (as we speak) a garland, by allusion to a custom that was among the Grecians. For such as got the mastery in their games of wrestling, or running, or the like, were r Herodotus 〈◊〉 Urania. crowned with a garland in token of victory. Whereupon the scripture (by a figure of speech) doth call life eternal, wherewith God rewardeth the conquerors, the crown of life: s 1. Cor. 9. 2●. not a corruptible crown, as those of the Grecians were, but incorruptible, 1. Pet. 5.4. a crown that can not whither, even a crown of glory. And as the crown is taken in this sense for a garland, to signify the bliss of endless life and joy: it is given only to the Saints in heaven, who u Reu. 14.13. rest from their labours. But the four and twenty Elders had golden crowns set upon their heads; and x Psal. 23.3. a crown of gold betokeneth a kingdom. Wherefore sith the Saints on earth are kings also, and not the Saints in heaven only: the four & twenty Elders may signify them both. As it is both their duties y Reu. 4. ver. 10 to cast their crowns before the throne, and say to him who sitteth on it, Thou art worthy O Lord to receive glory, and honour, and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy wills sake they are, and were created. Hart. But they are said also to be z ver. 4. clothed in white raiment. And the white raiment is used to betoken the brightness of glory, wherewith the Saints in heaven are clad. For a Reu. 3.4. Christ doth pronounce of the godly in Sardis, that they shall walk with him in white: and when upon the mountain b Luk. 9.29. his clothes were white glistering, it was a token of his glory. Rainoldes. But as white raiment doth betoken glory, so doth it grace too. For c Reu. 3.18. our Saviour adviseth the Church of the Laodiceans to buy of him white raiment, that she may be clothed, and that her filthy nakedness do not appear. And d Reu. 7.14. the scripture showeth touching the faithful of all tongues, and peoples, and kindreds, and nations, that they had washed their robes and made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. Wherefore sith no more is said of the Elders but that they were in white raiment: it may as well agree to the Saints on earth, who are in white of grace; as to the Saints in heaven, who are in white of glory. Hart. But e Reu. 4. ver. 4. they were sitting on four and twenty seats about the throne of God: and f ver. 2. the throne is said to have been set in heaven. Wherefore it can not be that the Saints on earth should be meant thereby. Rainoldes. Why? Was not S. Paul on earth when he said g Phil. 3.20. our * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. conversation is in heaven? Or, doth he not mean the same of all the faithful, who live after the laws of the heavenly city, that is, the Church of God, and are not earthly minded? Doth not S. john himself in the Revelation say that h ●eu. 12.1. a great wonder appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars, and she was with child, and cried travailing in birth, and was pained ready to be delivered? And is not the Church on earth hereby meant, clad as it were with Christ, who is i Mal. 4. ●. the sun of righteousness; treading down k 1. joh. 2. ●5. things worldly, which change as the moon; adorned with the doctrine of the Apostles, as of l Dan. 12.3. stars; and bringing forth the faithful, m isaiah. 54. ver. 1. & 5. & 13. Gal. 4.27. as children, unto God? Doth not he say farther that n Reu. 12.7. there was a battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels, but they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven? And is not this also meant of the militant Church: in which o Dan. 10.21. & 12.1. the Prince of the faithful, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say, who is as God, or equal to God. Phil. 2.6. Michael, that is Christ, with his p Heb. 1.14. angels and q Mal. 2.7. & 3.1. Reu. 1.20. servants, doth fight against the dragon, that is, r Reu. 12.9. the devil, with his angels, even all his powers and ministers, and doth prevail against them? Then if the Church militant on earth be represented both in this battle and in that woman, as s The Rhemis● Anno●at. on Reu. 12.7. yourselves confess, and yet S. john describeth the one to have appeared, the other to be done in heaven: the four & twenty Elders might have their seats in heaven by S. john's vision, and notwithstanding signify the faithful on the earth also. Which yet I say not, as defining it to be so; for I had rather learn then teach the Revelation, wherein I do acknowledge there are many mysteries that God hath not revealed to me: but only to show that you have no ground in the holy scripture why you should restrain it to the Saints in heaven. And if I could satisfy myself with such advantage to pluck down your fancies, as you content yourselves with to set them up: I might as well restrain it to the Saints on earth, sith the Elders say, t Reu. 5. ●0. we shall reign upon the earth; perhaps, as Christ said, that u Matt. 5.5. the meek are blessed, for they shall inherit the earth. But you and your Rhemists should have done well (before you meddled with the scriptures) to learn S. Augustine's lesson given to the Donatists: who when they alleged as fit a place of scripture out of x Cant. 1.7. ubi pa●cis, ubi cubas in meridie. Augustin. de unitat▪ eccles. cap. 16. the song of Solomon to prove that the Church was in Africa alone, as you to prove that Saints in heaven know our desires, out of the Revelation: S. y Epist. 48. ad Vincentium. Austin telleth them that he were very impudent who would expound an allegory or dark speech of scripture for his own advantage, unless he have also plain and manifest testimonies, by the light whereof the dark may be made evident. Which point in this place doth touch you the nearer, because, though it be granted that the Elders signify the Saints in heaven alone: yet z Reu. 5. ver. 8. the prayers, which are spoken off, may be their own prayers, to show that a ver. 9 & 10. they serve God, as it is showed after that b ver. 11. & 12. the Angels do, and c ver. 13. all the creatures in heaven, and on the earth, and in the sea, and under the earth, and d ver. 14. the four beasts, and finally themselves again. For, there are manifest testimonies of scripture that all the Saints offer up their own prayers, in which respect they all are Priests. But no manifest testimony, that their prayers are offered in heaven unto God by any other person then e Heb. 13.15. by Christ jesus, f Heb. 3.1. the high Priest of our profession, g Mal. 3.1. the Angel of the covenant, h 1. Tim. 2.5. the only mediator between God and man. And this doth seem to be that Angel, that other Angel, of whom it is written in the Revelation, i Reu. 8.3. another Angel came and stood before the altar having a golden censer, and there was much odours given unto him that he should put them into the prayers of all the Saints on the golden altar which is before the throne: and the smoke of the odours, which were put into the prayers of the Saints, went up before God out of the Angel's hand. For although the Angels be k Heb. 1.14. ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for the Saints on earth, who shall inherit salvation, and therefore as l Act. 10.4. they serve to certify them that their prayers are come up before God, so they might rather offer their prayers to God, than the Saints in heaven, who have no such ministry to serve the Saints on earth: yet because this Angel standing with a censer at the altar of incense to burn perfume before God, is set forth as doing that duty, m Exod. 30.7. Leu. 16.12. which the high Priest did figure in the law; and n Heb. 7.27. our high Priest is, no created Angel, but he * Col. 1.16. by whom the Angels were created, even Christ; it followeth that Christ is meant by the Angel. To whom this name is given oftentimes in o Gen. 48.16. Exod. 14.19. isaiah. 63.9. Mal. 3.1. scripture, because he is an Angel, that is to say, a messenger, sent by God his father to open his will unto his servants, and work their salvation by his covenant. And it may be, that, as God the father p Exod. 23. ver. 20. having said of him, Behold I send an Angel, q ver. 21. doth add, my name is in him, to show that he is * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he is also called Exod. 13.21. God: so, to distinguish him from the created Angels, who are often mentioned in the Revelation, S. john doth call him an other Angel, as differing from the rest, not only in number, but also in nature, authority, and dignity. For those things which are written of the Angel, who r Reu. 7.2. had the seal of the living God; who s Reu. 8.5. casting fire into the earth the Angels blew their trumpets, and powered out the plagues of God: who t Reu. 10.1. coming down from heaven, clothed with a cloud, and the rainbow upon his head, and his face was as the sun, & his feet as pillars of fire, had in his hand a little book, & set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land; which are namely written of an other Angel, an other mighty Angel, as he is also called: do (if the circumstances of the text be weighed) best agree to Christ. But whether it be so, or no: it is certain that Christ is the Angel who putteth odours of most sweet perfume into the prayers of all the Saints, as our high Priest, and offereth them to God his father, to whom u Heb. 7.25. he maketh always intercession for us, and is not only for our prayers but for ourselves also x Eph. 5.5. an odour of a sweet smelling savour before him. Wherefore sith the scripture manifestly showeth that our Saviour Christ offereth the prayers of all the Saints, and not that the Saints in heaven offer the prayers of the Saints on earth: you might have been contented to leave this honour unto Christ, and have suffered me to go forward with your reasons about the offering in Malachi. For you see how we are fallen from the Pope to Priests, from Priests to the Mass, from Mass to the Saints. And if I should follow the same vain on that which you have said of saints, and touch your abuse, who confessing that the scriptures give that name to faithful and holy persons in earth, yet (to maintain your solemn invocation of dead men) do make it proper, not to Saints in heaven, but to them whom it shall please y Extra. De reliquiis et venerat. Sanctorum. the Pope to z Sacrar. ceremon. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. tit. 6. De canonizatione Sanctorum. canonize, or 1 That is ●o say, admit in to the number of the Gods. As the heathenish Romans, before they would worship their Emperors, as Gods, did use to deify them. Herodian. lib. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. deify, (as 2 Divorum nostrorum apotheoses. Praefat. lib. 2. Sacr. ceremon. Rom. ecclesiae. the Master of his sacred ceremonies termeth it,) wherein notwithstanding a Thom. Aquin. quodlibet. ●. at. 16. Antonin. Summ. Theol. part. 3. tit. 12. cap. 8. Cai●tan. opusc. de indulgenti●s ad Cardin. Medicem. cap. 8. Canus Locor. Theolog. l. 5. c. 5. Pellarmin. in praelectionib. Rom. cont●ouer. 4. qu●st. ●. your Doctors also teach that the Pope may err, and canonize a wicked person for a Saint, so that it may be (even by your own doctrine) that in your church-service you worship them, as Saints, whose spirits are in hell with the devil and his Angels: I say, if I should flit thus from point to point on every occasion that your speech doth offer, we should confound our conference, and never make an end of the point in question. Wherefore let other questions I pray be reserved to their due place touching the faith of the Church. And now, to finish this touching the head of the Church, let us go forward with your masspriests, that so we may return to the Pope's supremacy. Of the six reasons therefore which you alleged out of D. Allen, to prove, that the clean offering which Malachi doth write of is the sacrifice of the Mass, and not spiritual sacrifices: the first is convinced clearly to be false, and that by the consent of all the same Fathers whom he would prove it by. For b Sacrificatur. the word, which noteth an outward sacrifice with him, with all them is c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Greek Fathers, in the Latin, a word answering thereto: as incensum, August. contr. advers. leg. l. 1. cap. 20. or odores incensi, Cypr. contr. judaeos l. 1. c. 16. incense of sweet perfumes and odours. But incense in the scripture is taken for the prayers of the Saints as you grant. The word then which he doth build the Mass upon, is not always taken properly in scripture for the act of outward sacrifice. Hart. But he doth not only urge the word, to sacrifice, for which indeed the Fathers and the Hebrew text have incense: but the word, to offer. And if that be always taken properly for the act of outward sacrifice: his reason is of force still. Rainoldes. But the force of his reason doth lie upon the word, to sacrifice, not to offer. For d Alan. de Euchar. sacrific. cap. 16. himself granteth that lay men, yea women too, are said to offer properly and truly: when, as in e Deut. 12.17. & 14.23. & 26.10. the old law the tithes and first fruits commanded to be given to the Levites and the poor were presented before God; so they present bread and wine for the communion, or alms for the relief of the poor and needy, or any earthly gifts and offerings for holy uses, as f Irenae. lib. 4. cap. 32. & 3●. August. epist. 59 ad Paulin. justin. Mart. apolog. 2. & in Tryphon. Cyprian. de opere & ●l●●mo●ynis. the Father's show. Wherefore though the word, to offer, were always taken properly for the act of outward offering: it proveth not the offering of your outward sacrifice: sith g Matt. 2.11. the wise men offered gifts unto Christ, h Matt. 5.24. the faithful jews at the altar, i c. Omnis Christianus. de consecration. distinct. 1. lay men and women at the Mass; and yet neither any of them were Massingpriests, nor their offerings, Massing-hosts. Much less doth it prove it, as Malachi applieth it to the offering of incense. For, as incense signifieth the prayers of the Saints: so to offer incense must be to sacrifice those prayers. But the sacrifice of prayers is a spiritual sacrifice. Wherefore the word to offer, doth not prove your outward sacrifice of the Mass. And so the first reason is gone. The second followeth: which is no sounder than the former. For why doth Allen say, that the sacrifice spoken of in Malachi is one: and therefore betokeneth not spiritual sacrifices, the which are as many as there are Christian good works? Hart. Why? Because the text of the Prophet Malachi saith that there is offered a clean oblation, or offering, as you call it. And offering is spoken of one, not of many. For else he should have said, offerings, not offering. Rainoldes. So. And do you think that he who said to God, k Psalm. 40.7. Heb. 10.5. sacrifice & offering thou art not delighted with, or (as you translate it) host and oblation thou wouldst not: did mean the Mass by that host? Hart. The Mass? No. He meant the hosts and oblations of the old law. For they are the words of the Prophet David, spoken of the legal and carnal sacrifices of the jews. Rainoldes. The jews? Nay: the text of the Prophet David saith that God misliked host and oblation; it saith not, hosts and oblations. Wherefore sith he speaketh of one, not of many; and the carnal sacrifices of the jews were many, but the sacrifice of the Mass is one, as you say: it seemeth he should mean that. A point some what dangerous for the host, which your Priests lift up to be adored. More dangerous for them, who live by lifting it up. Hart. Our adoration of the host is good, in spite of all heretics, and not reproved by the Prophet. For, although he saith, host and oblation thou wouldst not: yet is it plain he meaneth the sacrifices of the jews by * Synecdoche. a figure of speech, in which a part is used for the whole, and one for many; as host, and oblation, for hosts, and oblations. Rainoldes. Then Allens second reason is not worth a shoobuckle to prove that the sacrifice of the Mass is meant by the oblation in Malachi. For the word l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 oblation, or offering, which he useth in his own language, is used likewise still, m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only in the singular number, and never 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plural. as of one, not as of many, through all the old testament. Wherefore if the sacrifices of the jews were many, which nevertheless are called not offerings, but offering: the same word applied to the sacrifices of Christians can not enforce them to be one. Howbeit, were they one, to grant you that by a supposal: yet might that one sacrifice be a spiritual sacrifice, and so your Mass no whit the nearer. For as the Prophet n isaiah. 66.20. Esay saith that the Gentiles shallbe an offering to the Lord, using o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the same word that the Prophet Malachi: so the Apostle p R●m. 11.1. Paul exhorteth them with Esay to present their bodies, a living q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, speaking of their sundry sacrifices as one; as also, in a mystery, r 1. Cor. 10.17. Rom. 12 5. Ephes. 4.4. we that are many are one body. But without supposal, the course of the text doth import rather that the Prophet, saying, there is offered an offering, doth mean not one, but many, by 1 Synecdoche speciei. that figure which you touched: as by 2 Enallage temporis. an other figure he saith, it is offered, meaning, it shall be offered. For Mal. 1. ver. 8. & 9 the Lord declaring his detestation of the sacrifices of the jewish Priests, saith that t ver. 10. he will not accept an offering at their hand: but u ver. 11. the Gentiles shall offer to him a clean offering, which he meaneth of the contrary that he will accept. And this he showeth farther, where, touching it again, he saith Mal. 3. ver. 3. it shall be offered unto him in righteousness, y ver. 4. and shallbe acceptable to him. Now, the offering that is z Philip. 4.18. Heb. 13.16. 1. Pet. 2.5. acceptable to God from the Gentiles in the new testament, is all sorts of spiritual sacrifices and good works. By the offering therefore mentioned in Malachi there are many sacrifices meant, not one only. Which yet your old translation maketh more evident, opening the meaning of the Hebrew word by terming it sacrifices, a Mal. 3.3. They shall offer * Sacrificia. sacrifices to the Lord in righteousness. Wherefore sith our offering that should please God in the time of the gospel, is sacrifices by the judgement of your old translation, which b Concil. Trident. session. 4. you in no case may refuse; and sacrifices can not be meant of the Mass, for that is one sacrifice, but of spiritual sacrifices it may, for they are many, as Allens second reason saith: you see, we must conclude on his own principles, that the clean offering, which Malachi writeth of, doth signify the spiritual sacrifices of Christians, and not the sacrifice of the Mass. The third and fourth reasons have greater show, but lesser weight. For, though it be true that spiritual sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the jews with us, and therefore may seem not to be the offering spoken of in Malachi, which, beside that it is proper to the Gospel and the Gentiles, it should succeed also the sacrifices of the jews, and be offered in their steed: yet if we mark the difference that the scriptures put between the jewish worship of God in the law, and the Christian in the gospel, that seeming will melt as snow before the sun. For in the law of Moses, the jews, c Heb. 8.5. & ●. 9. & 10.1. to the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ & duty of thankfulness which they did owe to God for it, might still be set before them as in a figure & shadow; were willed d Num▪ 28.3 Leu. 22.19. to offer beasts without spot & blemish in sacrifice, with ceremonies thereto annexed, and to offer them e Deu. 12.5. in the place that God should choose, which was f Psal. 122. ●. the city of jerusalem, and g Psal. 78. ●9. 1 King. 8.20. the sanctuary, that is to say, the temple built therein. Now Christ, in the gospel, when that was fulfilled which the temple of jerusalem and sacrifices did represent, showed that h Heb. 9.10. the time of reformation was come, and removed that worship both in respect of the place and of the manner of it. For as it was prophesied that i Dan. 9 ver. 26 he should destroy the city and the sanctuary, k ver. 27 and cause the sacrifice and offering to cease: so himself taught that l joh. 4. ver. 21 now the Father would not be worshipped in jerusalem, nor m ver. 22. as the jews did worship him, but n ver. 23. & 24. he would be worshipped in spirit and truth. The Christian worship therefore that did succeed the jewish, doth differ from it in two points: one, that it worshippeth God not in jerusalem, but in all places; an other, that it worshippeth him in spirit, and truth; in spirit, without o Heb. 7.16 & 9.10. the carnal ceremonies & rites; in truth, without p Col. 2.17. Heb. 10.1. the shadows of the law of Moses. The which sort of worship seeing q joh. 4.13. he requireth of the true worshippers, that is of all the Saints, his servants; and in the new testament r Rom. 1.7. 1. Cor, 1.2. Ephes. 1.1. & ●▪ 11. & so forth. the Gentiles by the Gospel are called to be Saints: the worship, that is proper to the Gospel and the Gentiles, is the true spiritual worship of God, the s Rom. 12.1. reasonable serving of him by t 1. Cor. 5.8. godliness, and u Ephes. 2.10. & 4.25. good works, in righteousness, and true holiness; even x 1. Pet. 2.5. the offering up of spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by jesus Christ. And thus you may see the weakness of those cavils which are brought to prove that our spiritual sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachi saith it shall be offered to him in every place. For the former of them, that spiritual sacrifices of prayers and works are common to the jews with us, deceiveth with a fallacy: because ou● spiritual are spiritual merely, whereas they had carnal sacrifices with their spiritual. The later doth discover this fraud of the former, but with an other fraud. For in that it saith, that praying, fasting, and the works of charity were joined to their sacrifices: it showeth that their worship (though in part spiritual) was not spiritual merely. But in that it gathereth thereof, that these things cannot succeed their sacrifices, there is an other fallacy: because although the worship of God were still spiritual, as joh. 4. 2●. he is still a spirit, and so no worship may succeed, for how can a thing succeed itself? yet, the same in substance came forth in sundry manners, and so one manner of it might succeed an other. As Heb. 1.1. the word of God, touching the salvation of men by faith in Christ, was always the same: but uttered in sundry manners by the Prophets, and by Christ. In which sort the worship of God was ordered also: by the Prophets, a Exod. 34.33. Heb. 8.5. covertly, under the veils of ceremonies; by Christ, b Mat. 27.51. ●. Cor. 11.3. plainly and simply. Wherefore, as the doctrine of Christ did succeed the doctrine of the Prophets, both the same doctrine, but taught by Christ more clearly, more darkly by the Prophets: so the spiritual worship of God in the Gospel succeeded his spiritual worship in the law, both the same worship, but laden with ceremonies & shadows in the law, disburdened of them in the Gospel. Hart. I can not see those fallacies which you charge D. Allen with. For if the jews did offer prayers to God and other such spiritual sacrifices, as they did: then is it true, as he saith, that spiritual sacrifices are common unto them with us. And if they be common unto them with us, it followeth, in my judgement, that ours succeed not theirs: sith to succeed, is to come after; and how may that come after which did go before? Rainoldes. I have showed, how. And if you see it not: c 2. Cor. 3.14. the vail may be the cause, which is very likely to be laid on your heart in reading of the new testament, as it was on the heart of others, in reading of the old. For the thing is plain of itself, and evident, that the spiritual sacrifices which the jews offered, as namely their prayers, did not discharge their duty but they must offer carnal also; and that not every where, but in the place that God had chosen. In so much, that albeit they might pray in all places lawfully, as we may, yet must they come thither to worship God d Exod. 23.17. at certain times: and Daniel, though he could not because of their captivity, yet c Dan. 6.10. had his windows open toward jerusalem, when he prayed: and the faithful wept by the rivers of Babylon, f Psal. 137.4. how should we sing the lords song in a strange land? and the princely Prophet lamented that his banishment did keep him g Psal. 42.2. from appearing there, and longed h Psal. 6●. 2. to behold the power and glory of God, as he beheld it in the sanctuary; and being sick as it were i Psal. 84. ver. ●. with the love of his tabernacles, yea k ver. ●. fainting with desire of coming to his courts and l ver. 3. altars, he pronounced them m ver. 4. blessed who dwell in that house, yea, n ver. 5. who may come unto it, yea o ver. 6. though they travail hardly thereto through dry places, p ver. 7. to present themselves before God in Zion. Whereas Christians, of the other side, q Col. 2.14. neither have those altars or offerings made thereon to join with their spiritual r Heb. 13.15. sacrifice of praise, and they may s Eph. 5.19. sing the songs of the Lord t 1. Tim. 2.8. in all places. No land is strange: no ground unholy. Every coast is jewry, and every town jerusalem, and every house Zion, and u 2. Cor. 6.16. every faithful company, yea x 1. Cor. 6.19. every faithful body a temple to serve God in. The Christian worship than doth differ even in prayers from that of the jews, both in respect of the temple, y 1. King. 8. ver. 30. & 33. & 42. & 44. & 48. which they had a regard to: and of the ceremonies of the law, which they were bound therewith to keep. Wherefore, as z 2. Cor. 3.6. the ministry of the new testament, that is, of them who taught the gospel, came after the ministery of Priests in the old, and yet both old and new are the Lords testament: so might and did the worship of God amongst Christians in spirit and truth come after the worship of God amongst the jews, though yet they both did worship God spiritually. For the jews before did worship in the temple with the ceremonies of the law: as when a Luk. 1. ver. ● the Priest was burning incense at the altar in the inner part thereof, b ver. 10. the multitude of the people were praying in the outer. And the Christians after did pray without incense in any place, the people and Pastor all together: as c Act. 1.14. the Apostles with the disciples, and ( d 1. Cor. 14. 〈◊〉 16. & 2●, & 26. according to their instruction) e justin. Mart. in Apolog. 2. Tertullian. i● Apologet. the primitive Churches practise show. But these points of difference between us and them be perhaps the harder for you to understand, because your Popish worship is so like the jewish, both for the temple, and the ceremonies, that you may justly think their worship was in spirit and truth as much as yours. For as the Priest with them was severed from the people by the division of the sanctuary and court of the temple: f Durand. in ●ationali divinor. officior. lib. 1. cap. 1. so with you, by the chancel and body of the church. As with them g Exod. 10.7. he burned incense at the altar: h Durand. l. 4. c. 8. & l. 5. c. 9 so with you he doth. As with them i Exod. 28.4. he was clad in an Ephod, a mitre, a broidered coat, a girdle, a breastplate, and a rob, and they who served him were in their linen coats too: k Durand. l. 3. ●. 1. so with you he must have an amice, an albe, a girdle, a fanel, a chisible, and a stole, and they who are about him have surplice, yea copes also. Their Priests had l Exod. 30.20. a laver whereat they must wash before they sacrificed: m Durand. l. 1. c. 1. & l. 4. c. 3. so have yours. Your n Durand. l. 1. c. 3. vail between the choir and the altar in lent, resembleth o Exod. 26.33. theirs, that severed the holy place from the most holy. Your p Durand. l. 1. c. 2. & l. 4. c. 1. pyx with the sacrament, and their q Exod. 25. ver. 10. & 17. ark with the mercy seat; your r Durand. l. 1. ●. 3. phylacterie with saints relics, and their Exod. 16.33. pot with Manna; your t Or monstraus, as D. Allen callenth it, De Eucharist. Sacram. cap. 30. It is a vessel, like a cage, having ●●des of glass or crystal, that through them the consecrated cake set up therein, may be showed to men. monstrancie with the host, and u Exod. 25.30. their table with the showbread; your x Durand. l. 6. c. 74. holy oil of balm, and y Exod. 30.23. theirs of myrrh with spices; z Num. 19.9. their purifying water made of the ashes of an heifer, and a Durand. l. 1. ●. 7. yours of other ashes with water, wine, and salt; b Leu. 9.24. ●. Chron. 7.1. their fire sent from heaven, and c Durand. l. 6. c. 80. yours fetched * From the ●unn through a crystal glass. thence by art; their d Num. 17.10. rod of Aaron, and e Durand. l. 1. c. 3. your cross of Christ; finally, f Durand. l. 1. c. 1. your candles, or tapers, or torches, and g Exod. 25.31. & 27.20. their candlestick with lamps, do match one an other in proportion of rites: nay, you surpass them in your candles. For h Exod. 30.8. 1. Sam. 3.3. theirs were lighted in the night: i Durand. l. 4. c. ●. yours, in the day too. Theirs, in the temple only: yours, k Extra. De celebrat. Mis●ar. c. Sane. abroad also. Theirs, before the Lord: yours, l Vaux catechism. before images. Theirs, in one manner: yours, m Durand. l. 2. c. 7 & l. 4. c. 6. & l. 6. c. 72.73.80.89. etc. 〈…〉 eccles. l. 1. tit. 2. with great variety. Theirs, in small number: yours, at n Chiefly on Candlemas-day, and ●enebre-wensday. Durand. l. 6. c. 72. & l. 7. c. 7. times, and places, as many as the sand of the sea. And what should I speak of the rest of the things in which you do not only follow their ceremonies, but also go beyond them? Your o Durand. l. 1. c. 8. consecrating of Bishops, of churches, of altars, of patens, of chalices, and other instruments of your Priesthood, by anointing them, p Exod. 30.26. according to the order of Aaron and the tabernacle. Your q Durand. l. 2. c. 1. shaving, as of r Num. 8.7. Levites; your s Durand. l. 1. c. 3. imagery, as from t 1. King. 6.32. Solomon; your u Durand. l. ●. c. 4. hallowing of men, x l. 1. c. 4. bells, y On Ash●-wensday. Durand. l. 6. c. 28. ashes, z On Palme-sunday. Durand. l. 6. c. 67. boughs, a l. 4. c. 53. bread, b l. 6. c. 86. the paschal Lamb, c cap. 80. the paschal taper, d cap. 79. agnus-deis (and what not?) with e Missale Rom. reformat. a Pio quinto. Sacerdotale Rom. eccles. edit. a Samarin. part. 2. exorcized water: wherewith almost all things are purged by your law, as f Heb. 9.22. by theirs with blood. Your purifying (as g Num. 19.18. they called it) or (as you term it) h Caemeteria reconcilianda. Extra. de consecr. eccles. c. consuluisti. reconciling of a churchyard, or other sacred place, if it be polluted. In conclusion, to pass over your i Durand. l. 6. & 7. festival days, exceeding theirs in k Col. 2.17. shadows; your l Durand. l. 4. c. 41. & l. 6. c. 83. mystical devices in sacraments, to their pattern; your m Innocent. mysterior. Missae l. 1. c. 10. pontifical robes, in figures incomparable, in number double unto theirs; and infinite solemnities of your n The Pope. Sacr. cerem. Rom. eccles. l. ●. highest Priest, who o D●rand. l. 6. c. 75. entereth * On Maundy-thursday. once a year into the place most holy, p Heb. 9.7. as did the high Priest of the jews: your daily sacrifice of the Mass, though inferior to q Num. 28.3. theirs in that it is no burnt offering, wherein yet I marvel you came no nearer them, for as r levit. 6.13. they kept fire on the altar always, s Durand. l. 4. c. 6. so do you require it, and what should you have fire upon your altar as they had, unless you burn as they did? but your daily sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated in such Levitical sort, as if you contended to set forth a jewish worship more lively than the levitical Priests could. In attire like them, in mysteries above them, in t Ritus celebrant di Missam. orders more exquisite, in u Cautelae Missae▪ cautels more diligent, in furniture abundantly: in lifting up the whole host, and not (as x Exod. 29.27. they) a part of it, in y Durand. l. 4. c. 41. ringing of the sacring bell to countervail z Num. 10.10. their trumpets: in washing often, in blessing and crossing, in censing often, in soft speech and whispering, in kissing of the amice, kissing of the fanel, kissing of the stole, kissing of the altar, kissing of the book, kissing of the Priest's hand, and kissing of the pax: in smiting and knocking, in gesturing by rule and measure, in bowing and ducking, in spacing forward, backward, and turning round about, and traversing of the ground: beside the sweet music of a Durand. l. 4. c. 34. organs, and so forth, where it may be had, as in b 1. C●ron. ●●. the temple it might. I doubt not, M. Hart, but you are persuaded that this kind of service in your Church is Christian: and such, that if ourselves were present at the doing, the solemn doing of it, specially atChristmas, Easter, and such other more festival times, the most of our stony hearts would melt for joy, as your c Motiu. ●2. Bristol writeth. But in very truth it is more than jewish: and his conceit thereof is childish, and carnal. For although it might be delightful to the flesh, the eyes with gallant sights; the ears, with pleasant sounds; the nose▪ with fragrant savours; the mind, with show of godliness, to him that doth not understand: yet d 1. Cor. 2.15. a spiritual man would be grieved at it, as e Act. 17.16. Paul was in Athenes, and lament that the people should do●te upon that by which they are f 1. Cor. 14.17. Gal. 4.9. 1. Cor. 10.7. not edified, and weep over them as g Luk. 19.24. Christ over jerusalem, O if thou hadst known at least in this thy day those things which belong unto thy peace: but now are they hidden from thine eyes. The Lord h ●. Cor. 3.16. take away this vail from your heart, if it be his good pleasure: that you may see at length what it is to worship him in spirit and truth, and when you see it, do it. Hart. There is a vail rather of presumption over your heart, who condemn the Catholic ceremonies as jewish: then of ignorance over ours, who embrace them as Christian. For i Sess. 7. de sacrament. in genere. can. 13. the Council of Trent, which was gathered together and guided by the holy Ghost, hath accursed them who say that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, used in the solemn ministering of sacraments, may be despised. And those of the blessed sacrifice of the Mass, whereat your spite is greatest, k Session. 22. cap. 5. the holy Fathers of that Council have showed to be grounded on the tradition of the Apostles, not on the law of Moses. For as much (say they) as the nature of men is such, that it cannot be lifted up easily to the meditation of divine things without outward helps: therefore our holy mother the Church hath ordained certain rites, to weet, that some things should be pronounced in the Mass with a soft voice, and some things with a louder. Moreover she hath used ceremonies too, as namely mystical blessings, lights, incense, vestments, and many other such things, * Ex Apostolica disciplina & traditione. by the discipline and tradition of the Apostles: to the end that both the majesty of so great a sacrifice might be set forth, and the minds of the faithful might be raised up by these visible signs of religion and godliness to the contemplation of most high things which do▪ lie hidden in this sacrifice. These are the Counsels words. Whereby you may perceive, that the rites and ceremonies used at the Mass, are not jewish, but Apostolic: as (if need were) it might be showed in particulars, of incense, by S. l Dyonis. Areopagit. ecclesiast. hierar. cap. 3. Denys; of lights, by S. m Confession. Augustinian. lib. ●. cap. 11. tit. 2. ● council. Car●hag. 4. can. 6. Austin; of the rest, by other Fathers. Rainoldes. What? of the vestments too? fanel, amice, albe, stole, and such trinkets? Hart. I, even of them too: as basely and scornfully as you speak of them. Nor yet are these of ours like in all respects to those which the Priests did wear amongst the jews. From whom in other points our ceremonies differ also. As for example, their n Exod. 30.33. incense was a perfume most precious: o Durand. lib. 4. cap. ●. ours, is simple frankincense. Their p Exod. 27.20. lights must be of pure oil: q Durand. lib. ●. cap. 7. Sacr. cerem. eccles. Rom. l. 1. tit. 2. ours are of wax, and may be of other stuff indifferently. Which sith it is likewise apparent in the rest, as you must needs confess, at least for sundry of them: you are to blame greatly to reproach the ceremonies of the Church as jewish. Rainoldes. Nay, you did mistake me, if you thought I meant that they are all jewish, or jewish absolutely. For I must needs confess that some of them are Heathenish rather then jewish. As namely the shaving of your Priests crowns: after the manner of r Capillum des rasi, vertice pr●nitentes. Apulei. Au●ei Asin. lib. 11. Priests of Isis in Egypt. Your lighting of candles on Candlemas-day: s Rhenan. Annotat. in Tertullian. advers. Mareion. lib. 5. which came from the Februall ceremonies of the Romans. Your painting or graving of the images of men: t Eusebius hist. eccles. l. 7. c. 17. a thing that Christians took 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. by custom of the Heathens. Your 2 Ad eas thus, & cerei. Cic. off. lib. 3. censing of images, and setting tapers before them: u Polydor. Virgil. de inventor. rerum. lib. 2. c. 23. & l. 6. c. 13. as the Romans also did, when they were Heathens. To be short, the whole substance of your image-worship, x Durand. l. 6. cap. 77. your kissing, kneeling, & creeping to the image of the cross, like y Cic. in Verrem. lib. 4. Sicilians to Hercules; your images borne in procession, like to the z Pausanias' in Corinthiacis. Herodian. lib. 1. Apulei. Aur. Asin. lib. 11. Grecians idols; your pilgrimage to saints images, where they are most famous, as a Leand. Albe●t. descript. Italiae. Histor. S. Mariae Lauret. script. ab Hier. Angelit. ad Clement. sept. our Lady of * A town in Italy, where there is a temple of the blessed Virgin, more celebrated with lying miracles, and thereupon with resort of men: then her temple was at Walsingham in England, of which Erasmus writeth in Colloqu. Pe●egrinat. religionis ergo. Lauretto, like b Act▪ 19.27. Diana of Ephesus, with infinite such other fancies, do resemble lively the Heathenish rites of Paganism, and grew by likelihood from the Heathens. But I▪ because the temple of Solomon had images, although not of men; the Levites had shaving, although not of crowns; the tabernacle had lights, although not in the day time, much less at the beginning of February more than other times: did speak of your Popish rites herein as jewish, to make the best of them. And for all the difference that you find betwixt them, of wax in yours, and oil in theirs; and their perfume, and your frankincense; though c Exod. 30.34. frankincense was mingled with their perfume also, and d levit. 2.3. made an incense too without it; but granting this difference betwixt them to the uttermost: yet are yours jewish in the kind thereof, because they are shadows such as were the jewish. And it is likely, that they who devised them did fetch them out of Moses, as they who defend them do ground them upon Moses. For the fairest colour that either Bishop e In Rationali divinorum o●●i●iorum. Durand, or f The Canonists & Popes, de consecration. distinct. 1. & so forth in th● Decrees & Decretals. others set upon them, is, that God ordained them in Moses law. As g Extra. De sacra unctione. cap. unico. Pope Innocentius saith that the Catholic Church doth hold that Bishops ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sons: and again, that temples, and altars, and chalices ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle, and ark▪ and table with the vessels. Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth, that the sacrament of unction (or anointing) doth figure and work an other thing in the new testament than it did in the old. And thereof he concludeth that they lie who charge the Church with judaizing (that is, with doing as the jews did) in that it celebrateth the sacrament of unction. Rainoldes. Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference between the jews and you, that your holy unction is made of oil, and balm, where theirs was made of oil & myrrh with other spices. He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuff of it would not clear your Church from judaizing in the kind of the purgation, that is, the rite whereby you sanctify Priests and altars. No more, then if you should sacrifice a dog, and say that you do not therein as the jews did, because they did sacrifice, not dogs, but sheep & oxen. As for the difference by which the Pope severeth your unction from theirs, that yours doth work and figure an other thing than theirs did: first, it wrought as much in their altars, as in yours, for any thing that I know. Secondly, it figured in their Priests the gifts of the holy ghost: which he saith it doth in yours. Thirdly, were it so that it had an other either work or meaning with you then with them, as after a sort it hath, both in respect of h God by his word. Exod. 39.22. him, who ordered theirs; and i To figure & betoken Christ. Heb. 8.5. out of Exod. 25.40. the cause, why: yet might the ceremony be jewish notwithstanding. For (I trust) you will not maintain but it were judaisme for your Church to sacrifice k Exod. 29.41. a lamb in burnt offering, though you did it to signify, not Christ that was to come, l Ioh●. 1.29. as the jews did, but that Christ is come, and m Reu. 14.1. hath by his passion both entered in himself and brought in others to his glory. At the least, S. Peter n Gal. 2.14. did constrain the Gentiles to judaize, (as you term it,) when they were induced by his example and authority to allow the jewish rite in o levit. 11.47. & 23.25. choice of meats. Yet neither he, nor they allowed it in that meaning, which it was given to the jews in. For it was given them p Col. 2.16. to betoken that holiness, and q Gal. 4.3. train them up unto it, which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithful. And Peter knew r Act. 2.38. that Christ had done this in truth, and s Act. 10.15. taken away that figure, yea, t Act. 15.10. the whole yoke of the law of Moses: which point he taught the Gentiles also. Wherefore, although your Church do keep the jewish rites, with an other meaning than God ordained them for the jews, as Pope Innocentius saith, to salve that blister: yet this of Peter showeth that the thing is jewish, and you do judaize who keep them. Hart. S. Peter did not err in faith, but in behaviour, when he withdrew himself from eating with the Gentiles. For that was a default in conversation not in doctrine, as u De praescriptionib. advers. haeret. Tertullian saith. Neither doth S. x Epist. 9 & 19 ad Hieronymsi. Austin think otherwise of it. Rainoldes. I grant. For he offended not in the truth of the gospel, but y Gal. 2. ver. 14. in walking according to it, that having lived before not as the jews, but Gentile-like, yet z ver. 12. than he left the Gentiles for fear of the jews, and a ver. 13. dissembled his judgement touching that point of Christian doctrine. But this doth so much more convince both your Church of judaizing in her ceremonies, and your doctrine of corrupting the gospel with that leaven. For if S. Peter b ver. 11. was to be condemned, as causing them to judaize, whom through infirmity he drew by example to play the jews in one rite: what may your Church be thought of, which of settled judgement doth move and force Christians to play the jews in so many? And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence, and submission, when S. Paul reproved him. But c Non Iudaiza● ecclesia, sicut aliqui mentiu●tur. Extra. de sacra unctione. §. ungitur. Pope Innocentius saith that they lie who touch your Church for it. Wherefore the Pope, or rather the Popes and Papists all, who maintain the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approving both d Sess. 7. de sacrament. in gen. ●an. 13. the rest of your jewish rites, and namely e Sess. 23. can. ●. that of unction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius: they do not offend as the true Apostle of Christ S. Peter did; but as the false Apostles, f Galat. 1.7. & 2.3. & 4.9 who troubled the Galatians, and perverted the gospel by mingling of the law with it. Hart. Your words should have some colour of truth against the Church, if we taught that g Galat. 5.2. men ought to be circumcised, as did the false Apostles. Rainoldes. Why? Shall no heretics be counted h 2. Pet. 2.1. false teachers in the Church of Christ, unless they teach in all point● as did the false Prophets? Hart. But, (as I have showed out of i Sess. 22. cap. 5. the Council of Trent,) the ceremonies which we use in the sacrifice of the Mass, as namely mystical blessings, lights, incense, vestments, and many other such things, came all not from the false but from the true Apostles. And if there be any which they ordained not: that might be ordained by 1 Pia matter ecclesia. our holy mother the Church. As it was, that some things should be pronounced in the Mass with a soft voice, & some things with a louder. For such is the nature of men, that it can not be lifted up easily to the meditation of divine things 2 Sine adminic●lis exteriori●us. without outward helps. Which reason, added by the Council, doth warrant all our rites both of the Church's ordinance, and the Apostolic tradition against your cavils and surmises. Rainoldes. Alas. And see you not how giddily the Council doth bring in that reason, that because our nature doth need outward helps, therefore some things should be pronounced softly, some aloud? For the very chiefest of the outward helps, which God hath ordained to raise our minds from earth to heaven, is k Matt. 13.23. Act. 13.15. 1. Cor. 14.19. the hearing of his word. His word is rehearsed in the Epistle, the Gospel, the Canon, and other parts of the Mass. The Mass l Con. Trident. Sess. 22. cap. 8. you forbidden to be said in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people: so that if all were 1. King. 18.28. cried as loud as Baal's service, the people could not understand it. Yet not content with that, you will a part of it to be said with a soft voice, that the poor souls may not as much as hear it. Wherefore the reason which your Council maketh for that Massing-rite, is this in effect, that because the blindness and coldness of men doth need to be lightened and warmed by God's word▪ which is rehearsed in the Mass: therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voice, that they may not hear it; part with a louder, but in a strange tongue, that, although they hear it, they may not understand it. And was there not a mighty spirit of giddiness in the Princes of Trent, that made them write so droonkenly? Yea, m Sess. 22. ca●. ● Anathema fit. with a curse to seal it too? Hart. They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church, whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are uttered with a soft voice, is to be condemned: or that the Mass ought to be celebrated only in the vulgar tongue. And great reason why. Rainoldes. No doubt. For as n joh. 9.22. the jews, when they could not justify their wilful withstanding of the Son of God, agreed, that if any man confessed him to be Christ, he should be excommunicated: so by like reason your judaizers of Rome do ban and curse us, when they cannot justify their impudent customs and corruptions against us. Hart. The customs are Catholic and religious rites, which they do establish with the severity of the curse. Rainoldes. Catholic, and religious, to keep the Saints of God from hearing of God's word? Catholic, and religious, to have the church-service in a tongue which the Church, the faithful people, understand not? Hart. Yea, Catholic, and religious, if you mark the reasons which they give thereof. For of o Sess. 22. ca●. 5. the one, they show, that the Church hath ordained it: of p cap. 8. the other, that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar tongue. Rainoldes. Not the ancient Fathers? Why, q justin. Mart. apolog. 2. Tertullian. in apologet. Cyprian. de orat. Dom. Euseb. hist. eccles. l. 7. c. 8. Augustin. de catechizand. rudib. cap. 9 they are clear for it: and r Isidor. de of●ic. eccles. l. 1. c. 10. Cyrillus, Aen. Silu. hist. Bohem. cap. 13. Io. Beleth de divin. of●ic. in prooem. Lyra in 1. Cor. 14. Caietan. opusculor. Tom. 3. tractat. 15. younger Fathers too. Yea, Fathers both, and children, I mean the whole Churches, of all nations, in the old time; of many, even till this day: as namely of the s Liturg. Basil. ex version. Syr. quam vocant Anaphoram. Syrians, t Bellon. observat. l. 3. c. 12. Armenians, u Auentin. annal. Boior. lib. 4. Slavonians, x Sigismond. Lib. in comm●nt●rer. Moscovit. Moscovites, and y F●an. Aluar. in descript. A●thiop. cap. 11. Ethiopians. Hart. What so ever Churches or Fathers do, or have done: it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Council of Trent. And they, being Bishops and Pastors of the Church, might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by z Confess. Augu●t. art. 7. Wirt●mberg. art. 35. your own confessions. Rainoldes. They might. But our confessions withal should have taught them, that as they may provide for a 1. Cor. ●4. ve●. ●0. things to be done with comeliness and in order: so their rites and ceremonies must be b ver. 26. all to edify. Which the Trent-fathers' observed not in this rite, of having the service in a strange tongue, as themselves acknowledge. For c Sess. 22. cap. 8. they writ expressly, that 1 ●●tsi: non tamen. although the Mass contain great instruction of the faithful people, yet the Fathers have not thought it expedient 2 Vt vulgari passim lingua celebraretur. that it should be song or said every where in the vulgar tongue. Whereof this is the meaning, to open it in plainer words, that the corrupt custom of the Church of Rome, praying, and reading the scriptures in a strange tongue, in deed doth not edify: yet must stand for policy, to keep their Church's credit. For if they should yield that they have erred in one thing, men would doubt perhaps that they might err in more. And this do they farther bewray by the other point of uttering the words of consecration * Secreté profer● verba consecrationis, Ho● est corpus meum. In Canon. Missae. secretly, that the faithful may not hear them. For in saying that d Concil. Trident. Sess. 22. c. 5. the Church hath ordained that rite, they do closely grant that Christ ordained it not. Nay, e Thom. Aquin. Summ. Theolog. part. 3. quaest. 7●. art. 1. D. Harding in his answer to the 16. art. of B. jewels challenge. their own men teach that f Luk. 22.19. the example of Christ, and g Clem. constitut. Apost. lib. 8. the order of his Apostles, with h Ambros. de sacrament. lib. 4. c. 5. Leo Serm. 6. de ●eiun●o 7. men●is. justinian. in Authent. 137. §. Ad haec jubemus. the Fathers too, is manifest against it. Beside that, in calling it i Concil. Trident. Sess. 22. can. 9 a rite of the Church of Rome, they signify that other Churches do not use it, no not k Chrysost. Li●urgia. Bessario de sacrament. eucharist. the Greek Church. And yet against the practice of Churches, of Fathers, of Apostles, and of Christ, they say that a dumb show (which l As Pope In●ocentius the third saith in his treatise of the Mysteries of the Mass. lib. 3. cap. 1. crept in by custom) was ordained by our holy mother the Church: and, as men resolved to wallow in their own vomit, they curse him whosoever he be that shall condemn it. Hart. Although Christ (we grant) did utter the words of consecration openly; and the Apostles, and Fathers, and other Churches also have kept the same rite: yet the Church of Rome is not to be condemned for taking order to the contrary. For rites may be changed as it shall seem best to them who govern the Church: and there was great reason why they should change this, to weet, m The reason, that Pope Innocentius the third (in the same place) giveth of it. lest those words so holy and sacred should grow into contempt, whiles all in a manner knowing them, through common use, would sing them in the streets and other places not convenient. In the which respect perhaps they thought good also that the Mass and Matins, and all the church-service should rather be in Latin, then in the vulgar tongue. For of familiar use there groweth contempt: and men are wont to wonder at things which they know not; things common are despised. Rainoldes. A great oversight of our Saviour Christ, who willed his Apostles n Matt. 10.27. to speak that in the light, which he had told them in darkness; and, what they heard in the ear, that to preach on the houses. For men would despise his gospel, if they knew it: as they do meat who have it. And what meant S. Paul to disclose o 1. Cor. 11. ver. 24. the words of consecration to the Corinthians? Yea, in their vulgar tongue too? And that with instruction, p ver. 26. to show forth th● Lords death until he came, as oft as they received the sacrament? Did he go about to bring the words of consecration, and death of Christ, into contempt? Or was not Innocentius the Pope borne yet, of whom he might have learned that they must be uttered not only in a strange tongue, but also closely and in silence, least men, if they hear them, do know them through use, and sing them in the streets? But will you see? Your q Se●s. 22. cap▪ 8. Fathers of the Trent-councel were overshot a little, when they ordained that Pastors and all who have cure of souls should 1 Frequenter. often times expound (by themselves, or by others,) somewhat of those things which are read in the Mass: and r Sess. 24. cap. 7. explain the scripture to the faithful people 2 Vernacula lingua. in their mother tongue. In the Latin tongue if they had willed them to to do it, the order had agreed better with your doctrine: the people would have wondered at it. Now the knowledge of it is like to breed contempt. Beside there is danger, least, by hearing of it often times expounded, men become to wise, and smell out your abuses. The less they do know: the fit to be Papists. For s Rom. 10.3. ignorance is the mother of Popish devotion: as t 2. Pet. 1.5. knowledge is the nurse of Christian religion. Hart. We acknowledge that u Dist. 38. c●. Ignorantia. ignorance is the mother of all errors: neither do we seek to noosell Christians in it, but to wean them from it, as those decrees of the Council do sufficiently show. Rainoldes. They show sufficiently that you profess so: but how well you seek it, the former decrees of the rites, by which the people is nooseled in ignorance, do more sufficiently show. Nether is it likely that all Pastors and Curates shall have skill and leisure to expound the scripture to the people often. It may be that the service, read, and heard in a known tongue, would teach them more in a day, than some of them will in a moonth. Or if every Church had as good a Pastor, as Paul wisheth Timothee to be, that would x 2. Tim. 2.15. divide the word of truth a right: yet they, being used y Act. 13. ver. 15. to hear the scripture read, should understand him better, as z ver. 17. the jews did Paul, and be (through God's grace) a Act. 17. ver. 11. the readier b ver. 12. to believe him. And sith c Sess. 22. cap. 8. the Trent-fathers' declare this expounding therefore to be needful, lest Christ's sheep be famished, or d Lament. 4.4. the young children ask bread & no man break it to them: it had been their duty withal to consider that God would have the table of his children furnished with this bread e Col. 3.17. plenteously, and as f Psal. 23.5. David's table with a cup running over, to keep them in good liking, not only that they be not famished. At least, howsoever they smooth their practice in this point, it is sure that their reason is beside all reason, when g Concil. Triden. Sess. 22. c. 4. they say that because the nature of men doth need outward helps for raising of it up to think upon the things of God, therefore hath the Church ordained those rites, that some things in the Mass should be pronounced with a soft voice, and some things with a louder: the one, not to be heard; the other, not to be understood. And yet herein their dealing is the more plain, that they do acknowledge the Church to have ordained these rites. For if they would have hardened their faces, and said, that they received them from the Apostles by tradition: they might as well have said it, and proved it as sound, as they do of others, lights, incense, vestments, and all the rest of their beggary. Hart. Beggary call you that, which setteth forth the blessed sacrifice of the Mass with so comely ceremonies, to the consolation and instruction of the faithful? Rainoldes. Nay, the name of beggary is to good for it. For if S. Paul called the ceremonies of the jews Gal. 4.9. weak and beggarly rudiments, when they were matched with the gospel: what name deserve yours, ordained not of God, as theirs, but of men? Hart. You do us great injury to apply S. Paul's words, spoken of the jewish ceremonies which should cease, to ours which should continue. Much more, in that you say that God ordained not ours, as he did theirs. For he ordained theirs by Moses, and ours by S. Paul. Rainoldes. By S. Paul? Fie? And who told you so? Hart. S. i Epist ●●8. ad I●nuar. cap. 6. Austin saith that all that order of doing which the whole Church observeth through the world in consecrating, offering, and distributing of the Eucharist (which order of doing we do call the Mass) was ordained by S. Paul. Rainoldes. Your k Torrensis in confession. Augustinian, lib. 1. cap. 8. tit. 6. jesuit in deed maketh that note upon S. Austin. And if his meaning be thereby to prove only so much of that order, as the whole Church observed through the world in S. Augustine's time: then doth he disprove your ceremonies quite, yea some what more than ceremonies. For behold he mentioneth the distributing of the Eucharist, that is of the bread and cup of thanksgiving: both the which you distribute not in any Mass; in private Masses, neither. But if he meant as l Motiu. 9 Bristol did, and you would have him, that S. Paul ordained all that order of doing which your Church observeth and calleth it the Mass: your Council doth disprove him. For they confess that the Church of Rome hath certain rites, m Concil. Tri●dent. Sess. 22. cap. 5. neither ordained by S. Paul, n ●ap. 8. & can. 9. nor observed through the whole Church. And S. Austin speaketh of nothing but that which the whole Church observed, as namely the receiving of the Sacrament fasting: which custom being kept alike of all Christians, he gathereth on S. Paul's words to the Corinthians ( 10 Cor. 11.34 other things will I set in order when I come) that he ordained it. Hart. It is true, S. Austin doth speak of those rites, which the whole Church observed through the world without any change or diversity of manners. But so much the more doth he prove the doctrine of the Council of Trent. For the rites, which p Sess. 22. cap. 5. they say, the Church hath received from the Apostles by tradition, are namely mystical * Benedictione●. blessings, lights, incense, vestments, and many other such things. And for these S. Augustine's witness is of force that S. Paul ordeinedal that order of doing which we call the Mass. For the proof whereof you may see a cléerer testimony of his in q Epist. 59 ●d Paulinsi quaest. 5. an epistle to Paulinus, quoted by Torrensis, upon the same place of S. Augustine's confession. Rainoldes. And in that also Torrensis doth 〈◊〉 you. For S. Austin there, writing to a Bishop who had inquired of him how those words differ one from an other in S. r 1. Tim. 2. ●. Paul, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, doth tell him that he thinketh thereby is understood that, which all the church, or in a manner all practiseth, to weet, that supplications are those which are made in celebrating of the sacraments before that which is upon the lords table begin to be blessed; prayers, when it is blessed, and sanctified, and prepared to be distributed, and divided; intercessions, when the people is blessed and offered to God by their Pastors as it were by advocates; which things being done, and the sacrament received, the giving of thanks doth knit up all, which S. Paul in those words remmbreth also last. Now, what is there here more for your Mass, then for our Communion? Or if our Communion, which differeth from your Mass no less than light from darkness, yet hath all these things which S. Austin toucheth as meant by S. Paul: what face hath Torrensis, who saith that S. Paul is avouched by S. Austin to have ordained all that order of doing which you call the Mass? Is this your jesuits dealing with the ancient Fathers to make them fetch your Massing rites from the Apostles? Hart Yet even there S. Austin doth mention blessing twice▪ and that out of S. Paul. Whereby the first point, which the Council of Trent nameth, is approved, to weet, of mystical blessings. Rainoldes. True, if the Council had meant by Ble●●ing, and to bless. Gr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Lat. benedictio, & benedicere. that word, as the scripture doth, either s Mat. 26.26. the giving of thanks unto God, or t 1. Cor. 10.16. the sanctifying of creatures unto holy uses, or u Num. 6.23. praying for the people, that the Lord will bless them. But if they meant the making of the sign of the cross, as it is plain they did, both by the matter which that▪ chapter handleth touching visible signs, and by their intent to confirm the ceremonies which Protestants condemn, and by the Canon of the Mass which is as full of crosses as x Erasm. collo. in Exorcism. a conjurers circle, and the word [ * Been ✚ dixit ●n Can. Missae. he blessed] is taken so there with a cross in the midst of it: then your mystical blessings of the Trent-fathers' were neither meant by S. Paul, nor mentioned by S. Austin. Hart. Yes: S. Austin seemeth to mean● there by [blessing] ●he 〈◊〉 of the sign of the cross on the sacrament. For in a ●●rmon of his touching the same matter, he saith that the body of Christ is consecrated with the sign of the cross. Rainoldes. In what sermon is that? Hart. Amongst his sermons de tempore, y Sermon· 181. de tempore. the hundred eightieth and one. Rainoldes. That is amongst his sermons, but none of his sermons. For it useth the words of Gregory, a Bishop of Rome who lived long after: and more things it hath by which it is certain (as z Censur. serm. 59 in append. de diversis. Tom. 10. your Divines of Lovan note) that it is not S. Augustine's. Howbeit neither he that did compile that sermon, whosoever it were, saith that the ceremony of the cross in consecrating was of S. Paul's ordinance, or a tradition of the Apostles: which is the point that you had to prove by S. Austin; and, if you prove it not, you do not clear the Trent-councell. For I grant that a Augustin. in evang. Iohan●. Tract. 11●. in S. Augustine's time, yea b Chrysostom. demonstrat. quód Christus fit Deus. before it, the Christians, as they used to sign their forehead with the cross, in token that they were not ashamed of Christ crucified, whom the jews and Gentiles reproached for the death which he suffered on the cross: so they brought the rite thereof into the sacraments, and used both the figure of the cross and crossing in other things of God also. But it doth not follow because the Christians did it, therefore the Apostles ordained it to be done. Hart. But it is likely that they did. And certainly c De coron● militis. Tertullian, a very ancient writer, doth expressly say that Christians had it by tradition. Rainoldes. To sign their forehead with a cross, but not to sign the sacraments. Tertullian was so ancient, that he wrote (it seemeth) before that custom grew. Besides, you mistake him if you think he meant by the name of [tradition] a tradition of the Apostles. For what soever custom not written in the scripture was kept by the faithful, that, because it was delivered by some body from whom the use thereof was taken, he saith it came in by tradition. In so much that he affirmeth it both of 1 Apud Iudaeo●. jewish customs before the Apostles, as that their women covered their faces with veils: and of Christian after, which yet are not Apostolic, as, 2 Ter mergitamur: lactis & mellis concordiam praegustamus. the dipping thri●e of them who are baptised, and feeding them with milk and honey. And, (which plainly showeth he meant not the Apostles in it,) 3 Omni fideli. every faithful man may (by his judgement) devise such rites upon reason: neither must we respect the authors, but the authority; & 4 Saluo traditionis respectu, quocunque trad●tore censetur▪ regard the thing delivered, whosoever did deliver it. Wherefore the tradition, that Tertullian speaketh of, is against the doctrine of your Trent-councell. For neither doth he mention the sign of the cross to have been used in consecration, which he would of likelihood if then it had been used: nor saith he that it came by tradition from the Apostles in that sort as it was used, but he knoweth not from whom. Hart. Though none of th● Fathers perhaps bear witness of it: yet if the Council meant it by mystical blessings, they knew that the Church had it from the Apostles. For else they would not vouch it. Rainoldes. Then you were best to say that they learned it from heaven by revelation: d Sleidan. comment. l. 6. & 10. as the Anabaptists are wont to do their mysteries. For else they could not know it. Hart. You confess yourself that S. e In evang. johann. Tract. 118. Austin and others of the ancient Fathers did use it in celebrating of the holy sacraments. I marvel why you like it not in our Mass, sith we do therein but as the Fathers did. Rainoldes. Nay, I confess not that. For your Massing-priest doth trick i● as a f Wierus de praestigijs daemon 〈◊〉. ●. cap. 4. & 10. sorcerer, all in mathematical or rather magical numbers: g In Canone Missae, & communione. by crossing thrice the bread, and wine, both together, and thrice again both; then once each in several, and once again each: and again thri●e, & once; and again once, and thrice, with a cross on himself betwixt: hitherto with his hand: after with the host he crosseth thrice the chalice; and twice (to make up five) between his breast and the chalice▪ next with the pa●en he ●●osseth once himself, and the chalice thri●e witha piece of the host, and once himself again with the host over the paten, and lastly once himself again with the chalice; all these in the Canon and Communion of the Mass, beside h Ritus celebrandi Mis●am. a number more before he cometh to the Canon. But the ancient Fathers and namely S. Austin were far from such mystical toyi●ges with the sacrament. Pope hildebrand's magine, that so many cros●es, though yet not so many as you are grown to now, but i Microlog. de ecclesiast. obseruationib. cap. 14. the tradition of Pope Hildebrand that crossings must come in by one, or three, or five, 1 Imparem numerum semper obseruamus. still in an odd number, after Numero Deus impare gaudet. the rule of k Virgil. in Pharmaceutria. Eclog. 8. old sorcerers, was a profounder rite of mystical blessings, then either S. Austin, or other ancient Fathers used. Hart. Pope Gregory the seventh (named Hildebrand before his Popedom, kept not those odd numbers for any magical fancy, though m Benno Cardinalis in histor. de vita Hildebrandi. Benno charge him falsely with that devilish art: but to note a mystery. For n Microlog. de observat. ecclesiast. cap. 14. he said that one, or three, or five crosses must therefore still be made, because by one, and three, we signify one God in trinity; by five, the five parts of the passion of Christ▪ Rainoldes. As who say o Cornel. Agrippa de occulta Philosophia l. 2. c. 4. & 6. & 8. De vanitate scientiar. c. 47. & 48. magicians had not the like mysteries in their odd numbers too. And if Pope Hildebrand would have had p Element. magica Petr. de Aban. in prae●at. a circle made about the Priest to keep the devil from him while he is saying Mass: there were a mystery for that also, to weet, that it signifieth God, who neither hath beginning, nor end. Hart. Nay, the circle is a ceremony proper to conjurers: and he would never have admitted it. But, in that he kept an odd number always in making of crosses upon the oblation: he did as he had learned in Rome, where he was brought up under ten of his predecessors. And that, which he learned there, was the tradition of the Apostles. Rainoldes. So q The auto●● of the treatise entitled Micrologus de ecclesiast. obse ru. cap. 14. his scholar saith; and he saith truly, for sundry points of that he learned: as namely, that r ●ap. 18. & 19 the people did, and must receive the sacrament with the Priest, and that, under both kinds. Which showeth (by the way) that your private Mass, and Communion under one kind, was against the tradition and order of the Apostles, by the judgement of the Church of Rome and Popes themselves * For Hildebrand was Pope in the year of Chris● 1084. above a thousand years after Christ. But the making of crosses on the sacrament still in an odd number was so far from being a thing delivered by the Apostles, that the Church of Rome had then begun it lately, if yet the Church began it, and not Pope Hildebrand were rather the father & first inventor of that mystery. For Bishop s Amalar. Fortumat. episcopus Trevirens. de ecclesiast. office lib. 3. cap. 24. Amalarius, who lived two hundred years or thereabout before Hildebrand, and did both know and reverence the order of the Church of Rome, having said that it sufficeth to make a cross once upon the bread and wine, because Christ was once crucified, addeth, that it is not amiss to make it twice, because he was crucified for two kinds of people, that is, the jews and the Gentiles. Whereto t cap. 26. he noteth farther, that the Priest made two crosses with the host near unto the chalice, to signify that Christ was taken down from the cross being crucified for two peoples. And this which he reporteth of two, was u Ordo Rom. de officiis divinis. cap. de ●fficio Missae. the order of the Church of Rome before Hildebrand came: who controlled it (as appeareth by x Microlog. de observat. ecclesiast. ca 17. his scholar) upon this reason, that Christ had no wound in his side but one, and therefore but one cross must be made beside the chalice. Which reason is so good, that it may seem strange why the reformers of your y Missale Romanum ex decret● sacros. council. Trident. restitutum, in Rit. celebrandi Missam, & Canone Missae. Mass-book have kept the former order against the rule of Pope Hildebrand: unless perhaps they thought that Hildebrand misliked it not so much for that reason as for the number of two; z Cornel. Agrippa de occult. philosoph. l. 2. c. 5. which number, the soothsayers and sorcerers hol● to be nought. But hereby themselves have opened their judgement, that not all which Hildebrand is said to have learned under ten of his predecessors was the tradition of the Apostles. And it is worth the noting how these mystical blessings, which at Trent were fathered on the Apostolic tradition, have lately got that parentage by the help of such as was Hildebrands' scholar, when before they seem not to have been accounted so. For a De ecclesiast. office l. 3. c. 24. Amalarius, (whom I named,) a man that was likely for zeal to speak the best, for skill to know the most that might be said of the service and ceremonies of the Church; he had read so much and travailed so far even to Rome, and that in embassage from the Emperor to confer with the Pope about them: yet this Amalarius, speaking of the sign of the cross which they used to make in consecration, leaveth it in doubt whether Christ made any when he did bless the bread, or rather thinketh he made none, because the cross at that time was not yet set up; but now (saith he) we know that it must be made, for S. Austin saith so. Where it is not probable that he would have grounded it on man's authority, if he could have said that either Christ had used it, or, though Christ used it not, yet the Apostles had ordained it. No more, then that after the testimony of S. Austin he would have judged it sufficient to cross the bread and wine once, if he had thought that so many crosses, as you make, were to be required by S. Augustine's judgement. Hart. Thus you reprove us as varying from S. Austin, because we make so many. What may we say of you who make none at all? Who neither use it in consecration of the holy sacraments, nor sign your foreheads with it, nor set it in your Churches, nor allow it in the sanctifying of meats and other creatures. Though all these things were done by the ancient Fathers, in remembrance of him who died for us on the cross: yea, though Christ himself have commended to us the sign thereof by miracles, as the story of Constantine the Emperor doth witness; b Euseb. de vita Constantin. lib. 1. cap. 22. who saw it in the element with these words written by it, * In hoc signo vince. Alan. Cop. dialog. 4. cap. 3. In this sign overcome; and was charged in a dream to make the form and likeness of that which he had seen, and use it as a defence against his enemies assaults; which he did accordingly, and mightily subdued them by it. But neither the vision of Christ unto Constantine, nor that and other miracles which have been wrought by it, nor the practice of the primitive Church and ancient Fathers can prevail with your men, but that they must seek to raze out from among Christians so worthy and notable a monument of Christ's passion. And yet you will bear the simple people in hand that you are of the same religion that they were, when you pluck down that which they did set up, and do clean contrary unto them. Rainoldes. The sign that appeared to Constantine in the element, was a sign of the name of Christ, not of his cross: howsoever the coiners and c Martials ●●●tise of the Cross, art. 2. Harpsfieldes Cope, dialog. 4. crosse-maintainers of your Church do falsely paint it out. For, as d De vit. Constantin. l. 1. c. 25. Eusebius writeth, (unto whom Constantine did report the thing, and showed him that ensign which he had caused to be made in the likeness thereof,) it was the form of 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a spear standing strait upright, with 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a crown at the top of it, & as it were 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a horn which 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. which words, translated amiss by interpreters, (erat litera ● inserta in medio literae ●) have occasioned ●ome to make the sign otherwise then Eusebius describeth it. did cross the midst of the spear a slope. So that it represented two of the Greek letters, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: which being the first letters of the name of Christ, the name of Christ was signified by that sign to Constantine. Thus he describeth it, who saw it. Hart. But out of doubt e De vit. Constantin. lib. 1. cap. 22. he calleth it the sign, or the monument of the cross q also. Rainoldes. But f cap. 25. himself showeth that he called it so, because it resembled some what 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the sign of a cross. For neither was it like the cross of Christ fully, which had The figure of the letter T. Tertullian. advers. Marci●●. lib. 3. Hiero. lib. 3. commentar▪ in Ezech. cap. 9 an other figure: and, where he describeth it, he saith in plain terms that it was 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. a sign of the name of Christ. Nether were those words that you rehearsed written by it, In this sign overcome, as your h D. Harpsfield in his Cope. Dialog. 4. c. 3. Doctor saith, (belike because he read it coined in the cruseado so, or in the portigue:) but, 7 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Euseb. de vit. Constan. lib. 1. c. 22. By this overcome; as if God, showing him the name of Christ, should have said unto him, that i Act. 4.12. there is given no other name under heaven whereby he must be saved. In the which meaning it seemeth that Constantine did understand it also: because k Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 1. cap. 25. he used afterward to carry in his helmet, not the sign of the cross, but those two letters by which the name of Christ was represented to him. Howbeit, if it were so, that not the name only of Christ but his cross too were meant by that sign, as l cap. 26. the Bishops took it, who thereupon taught Constantine the mystery of Christ crucified; yet neither that vision, nor Constantine's victories, nor other miracles wrought thereby, nor practise of the faithful in the primitive Church doth prove that we have done amiss in plucking down the sign of the cross, wherewith you en●●ite us; or that we are not of the same religion that they were who did set it up. For tell me, what think you of the brazen serpent, m Num. 2●. 8. which God commanded Moses to set up in the wilderness? Was it not n joh. 3.14. a figure of the passion of Christ? Hart. Yes. But what of that? Rainoldes. And there were many miracles also wrought by it. For, when the jews were stung by the fiery serpents, o Num. 21.9. they looked on the serpent of brass, and were healed. Hart. If they were: what then? Rainoldes. Yet p 2. King. 18.4. king Ezekias, a man of the same religion that Moses was, did break it in pieces: and he did well in it. Hart. He broke the brazen serpent in pieces I grant: but that was because the children of Israel did burn incense to it. Rainoldes. So have we plucked down the sign of the cross, because you burn incense to it, M. Hart. Hart. Nay, that we do not. Rainoldes. It is written in your q Tit. ●itus· celebrandi Missam. Mass-book, that in solemn Masses the Priest 1 Facta eruci ●euerentia 〈…〉 in censat. having made obeisance to the cross doth incense it thrice. Hart. But that is not to burn incense as the jews did. For they had a superstitions estimation of the serpent, putting trust and affiance in it. Rainoldes. So have you a superstitious estimation of the cross. For you think it a special defence against the devil; and (by your common phrase) they do bless themselves who sign their breasts with it; and you carry about you crosses made of metal, with an opinion that you are the safer thereby, as 2 Superstitios● mulierculae. superstitious women in S. r Hieron. comment. in Matt. cap. 23. Super phylacteria Ph●risaeorum. jeroms time did the wood of the cross. Hart. If any do it of superstition, as those women did: we reprove them with S. jerom. But the jews did worship the brasent serpent as God: and we do not the cross so. Rainoldes. If any do it as those women, which your crossecariers do: they do it of superstition. But how did the jews worship the serpent, as God? Hart. S. s De civit. Dei. lib. 10. cap. 8. Austin saith that they did worship it as an idol: which is to make a God of it. And Ezekias showed the same in effect, by that t 2. King. 18.4. he called it nechushtan, that is, brasen-stuffe: as if he should have said, that it had no divine power, which they by error thought it had. Rainoldes. The jews gave u Exod. 30.8. the honour of God to a creature, in that they burned incense to it. And therefore Ezekias did call it brasen-stuffe; as if we should call your roods wooden-stuffe, your Agnus-deis waxed stuff, your crucifixes and crosses made of copper, copper-stuffe, because you impart the honour of God to them, by putting trust and hope in them. And if x Ephes. 5. ●. the covetous man be called an idolater, because he maketh money his God, not as though he thought the coin to be God, but because he trusteth to live and prosper by it, y jer. 17.7. which confidence and hope he should repose in God only: then worship you the sign of the cross as an idol, because you trust to be saved by it, as in your z Breviar. Roman. Sabbat. in hebd. quarta quadrag. church-service you profess notoriously, and so a Thomas A●●quin. Sum. Theolog. part. 3. quaest▪ 2●. art. 4. Andrad. orthod. explicat. lib. 9 yourselves confess you worship it as God. Wherefore if b 2. King. 18. ver. 3. & 5. Ezekias be praised by God, for breaking in pieces the serpent of brass, because the children of Israel did burn incense to it: we who have removed the sign of the cross because you put the hope of salvation in it, may content ourselves to be dispraised by men. But if you say therefore, that we be against the ancient Fathers in religion, because we pluck down that which they did set up: take heed lest your speech do touch the holy Ghost, who saith that Ezekias c ver. 6. did keep God's commandments, which he commanded Moses, and yet withal saith that d ver. 4. he broke in pieces the serpent of brass which Moses had made. And if you will not learn this lesson of me, yet learn it of e Dist. 63. c. Quaa. §. verum. the Canon law, that, if our predecessors have done some things which at that time might be without fault and afterward be turned to error, & superstition: we are taught by Ezekias breaking the brazen serpent that the posterity may destroy them without any delay, and with great authority. Hart. The divine worship with the which we honour the image of the cross, is proved by S. f Thom. Aquin. Sum. Theolog. part. 3. qu●st. 25. art. 3. & 4. Thomas to be due thereto. For, the honour of an image is referred to that which the image resembleth: and the motion of our mind is the same to the image of a thing, as an image, and to the thing itself. Wherefore, sith the cross doth represent Christ, who died upon a cross, and Christ is to be worshipped with divine honour: it followeth that the cross is to be worshipped so too. Yet you and your men are still objecting to us our honouring of the cross, as though we committed idolatry therein. In good sooth, Masters, ye are too young to control the Church of Rome in her doings. Rainoldes. So M. g Confutat. of the Apolog. part. 4. Harding telleth us of the city of Rome, when we control her stews. And in deed you have almost as much reason to speak for the maintenance of this spiritual whoredom, which you commit with the cross: as he for the carnal, which they commit with Courtesans. Now well had it fared with the brazen serpent, if Thomas had been schoolmaster to king Ezekias. For he would have taught him, that sith the brazen serpent did represent Christ, and Christ was to be worshipped with divine honour: therefore the brazen serpent was to be worshipped so too. You are angry when we say that you worship the Pope, h 2. Thes. 2.4. as God. methinks you should grant it. Sure you might defend it by this school-divinity. For, though he bear one way i Reu. 13.14. the image of the beast: yet in that he is a man, he is k 1. Cor. 11.7. an image of God, whom he resembleth more lively than any cross or crucifix doth represent Christ. But to return to the mystical blessings of the Mass, which you went about to fetch by S. Austin from the Apostolic tradition: you see that neither they, nor incense, nor lights, nor vestments, nor the rest of that suit of ceremonies are mentioned at all, much less avouched to be Apostolic, in that of S. Austin which your jesuite groundeth on. Hart. I know that S. Austin doth entreat rather of the substance of the Mass, then of the ceremonies, in that place. But l Epist. 118. 2● januarium. in the other which I cited he doth entreat of customs: and so, that he proveth the ceremonies of the Mass to have come from the Apostles. For of the things (saith he) which we keep by tradition, it is to be thought that such as are observed through the whole world were either ordained by the Apostles themselves, or by general Counsels. Wherefore sith the ceremonies of incense, lights, vestments, and other of the like sort were not ordained by general Counsels: it followeth by S. Austin, that the Apostles did ordain them. Rainoldes. That rule of S. Austin, is probable, not necessary. For though it be likely that there was no custom observed by the Church through the whole world, which it had not from the Apostles, chief, seeing m Socrat. histon▪ eccles. lib. 5. cap. 21. Christians did vary then so much in rites of all sorts: yet they might either have taken up, or kept of that they had before, some thing which the Apostles delivered not unto them. But admit his rule as an undoubted principle to your most advantage: and yet are you no nearer the proof of those ceremonies. For how can you prove that incense, lights, vestments, and the rest of your baggage were used at that time through the whole world? Hart. Incense to have been used, n Eccles. ●ierat●chiae cap. 3. I have proved by S. Denys Areopagita: lights, by S. Austin. Rainoldes. But you have not proved that they were used through the whole world, either by S. Austin, or by S. Denys. o In Concil. Carthag. 4. c●n▪ 6. Nay, that Denys (who so ever he were,) doth prove the contrary. For in his description of the Mass (as you call it) there are neither lights, nor vestments, nor crossings, nor all the other ceremonies: whereby it is manifest that they were not used through the whole world when that Denys wrote. As for incense, howsoever it crept into that Church in the which he lived: it appeareth by the writings of p In apology▪ cap. 42. Tertullian, and q Adverse. ge●tes lib. 7. Arnobius, that the Church used it not in their days. Neither is the censing, which Denys speaketh of, liker to yours: then (I showed) your blessings are like to S. Augustine's. For r Dionys. Areopag. hierar. eccles. cap. 3. he hath it only once about the Church. But in s Vit. celebrandi Missam. your solemn Mass it is used often, and to sundry things: to the cross, to relics, to images, to candlesticks, to the altar, the lower part of it, and the higher, to the Priests, to the book, to the bread and wine, thrice above the chalice, and the host, and thrice about them, to the altar, and the Priest again and again, to the choir, to the deacon, to the subdeacon, to the people; and, in Masses for the dead, to the sacrament also at the time of the elevation. So that, if the words of the t Sess. 22. cap. 5. Trent-councell be weighed with your practice: you will lose the countenance of that which Denys showeth to. For with him it is incense in the singular number. Your Masses and the Council hau● * Thymiamata. incenses in the plural. By the which word if the Council meant to note all the censinges that are used in Massing, as they did of likelihood: then neither Denys maketh for your Massing-incense. Though, whatsoever he make, he maketh nought for your reason: because he proveth not that it was used through the whole world. Now the lights, which your jesuite hath found in S. u Confession. Augustin. lib. 3. cap. 11. tit. 2. Austin, make less a great deal for it. For S. x De tempore. In Natali ●om. Serm. 3. ● Luminaria noctis. Austin calleth the lights which they used, ¹ lights of the night: because they did use them in the night time when they met at prayers, y Act. 20.8. as Christians were wont. But your Massing-lights are used in the day time, when the sun shineth: a thing perhaps observed through the whole world, but z Tertullian. de idololatri●. of idolatrous Heathens, not of the Church of Christ. Hart. Yes, that Christian Churches had also lights burning in the bright sunshine while the gospel was reading, S. a Cont. Vigilant. jerom is a witness; and, before S. jerom, his Master b Orat. in Pas●ha. Nazianzen maketh mention of it; and c In exhortat. ad ●rthodox●s. Athanasius before them both. Wherefore out of doubt it is an ancient custom, and that very general. Rainoldes. As you say: if it be witnessed by these three Doctors, S. jerom of Europe, Nazianzen of Asia, & Athanasius of Africa. But he who saith they witness it, hath not read them, I think. Hart. But I think he hath: or rather I am sure of it. For D. d question. quodlibe●ic. 2. Stapleton saith it, in his comparison of the Catholic and Roman Churches Mass with the lords supper of the Protestants. Wherein as he allegeth these Doctors for this point: so he proveth all things, which your Supper wanteth and our Mass hath, to be Apostolic. Rainoldes. He proveth? Nay he promiseth to prove them Apostolic. For in very truth he proveth not one: not one of all those things wherein your Mass differeth from our Lord's supper. No more than he proveth this of lights burning in the bright sunshine: in the which he notably abuseth their names whom he doth cite to prove it. For in c Epist. ad Orthodoxos in persecut. Athanasius the tapers of the Church are mentioned only: but that they were lighted in the daytime while the gospel was reading, there is no such word. b Orat. in sanctum Pascha. Nazianzene speaketh of lights that were burning upon Easter-even: but 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. to lighten the night, he saith, not the day. Hart. But speaketh he there of those night-lightes alone, and of no other light? Rainoldes. He speaketh of an other light, but spiritual For he saith that the most bright shining light followeth the candle that did go before it. Hart. Why, that is it that showeth the ceremony which we talk off. For they were wont to carry candles before the gospel when they did read it. Rainoldes. They were wont afterward. But we speak of Nazianzene. And he meant nothing less. For by [the light] he signified Christ, e joh. 8.11. the light of the world: and by [ f joh. 5.35. the candle] john Baptist▪ g Luk. 1.76. who went before Christ to prepare his ways. The light (saith he) shining most excellently bright followeth the candle that did go before it; and h joh. 1. ver. 1. the word, i ver. 23. the voice; and k joh. 3.29. the bridegroom, 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the bride man, or friend who bringeth the bride to him. Is this D. Stapletons' proof out of Nazianzene for burning tapers in the day time? Hart. Of Nazianzene I know not. But certainly S. jerom is a witness of it against Vigilanti●s▪ Rainoldes. Yet these are S. jeroms own words in a Contr. Vigilant. that treatise: We do light 4 Cereos non clara luce accendimus. tapers not in the bright●day-time, as thou dost vainly slander us, but by this comfort to ease the darkness of the night. Hart. But he addeth that Churches of the east had lights burning in the daytime, while the gospel was reading, thereby to show their joy. Rainoldes. But neither this usage of the eastern Churches was the same that yours is. For they did keep lights, while the gospel was reading, and put them out after: which rite l Ordo Roman. de divin. office cap. de officio Missae. Durand. in Ration. divin. office lib. 4. cap. 24. you had also, and some where have perhaps yet. But the general rite which you have gotten now of burning tapers still, before the gospel, and after: that in S. jeroms time not only was unborn in the we●●, but in the ●ast too. Though if the east had used it: yet neither were it proved so (by your reason) that the Apostles did ordain it, because it was not used in the western Churches, & therefore not through the whole world. Howbeit I deny not but there is good reason why your Church should use it. For m De idololatr. Tertullian saith: let them light candles daily who have no light; 5 Illis competút ●estimonia tenebrarum. the testimonies of darkness do well beseem them. Hart. You may bring Tertullians' werdes, when you have proved that we have no light: which you shall never do. Rainoldes. Not while you are able to say with n joh. 9.40. the Pharises, Are we blind also? But sith there were so ancient Churches which lighted candles in the bright sunshine: that may be some colour for your Massing-lights. For your Massing-vestiments not so much can be found. Yet o Concil. Trident. Sess. 22. cap. 5. they are also fathered on the tradition of the Apostles. Hart. And D. p question. quod libetic. 2. Stapleton saith that if we list to run through every one of them, we shall find that the primitive Church did use them all. Rainoldes. Belike you will never list then. For sure you will never find that. Hart. No? Why say you so? When himself hath found it, and proveth it particularly. For hitherto belongeth the plate, or Bishoply mitre▪ Rainoldes. The mitre? That is none of your Massing-vestiments. Hart. Though it be none of them which simple Priests wear, yet it is a vestiment that Bishops wear at Mass. Rainoldes. O, that Bishops wear. Then I perceive your Doctor meaneth to prove not only the six vestments, common to all Priests, in token that they are perfect, because the sixth day the Lord did perfect heaven and earth: but also the nine which Bishops have beyond them, in token that they are spiritual like the nine orders of Angels, as Pope q Mysterior. Missae lib. 1. cap. 10. Innocentius and Bishop r In Ration. divin. office lib. 3. cap. 1. Durand open. Hart. If he prove them both: your shame is the greater, who neither use the Priestly vestments, nor the Bishoply. Rainoldes. But they both together do make fifteen vestments: which Bishops must put on, when they say Mass, * As Innocentius and Durand say▪ in the places quoted. to signify the fifteen degrees of virtues (according to the fifteen psalms of degrees) wherewith they must be clad. And, I may tell you, it will be as hard to prove that any Bishop did wear those fifteen vestments in the primitive Church: as, that every Bishop, who weareth them in yours, hath the the fifteen degrees of virtues which they signify. Hart. Well, if you will hearken unto D. Stapleton: hehath proved more, then may be with your liking. For hitherto belongeth the plate, or Bishoply mitre, which john the Evangelist did wear, as Polycrates the Bishop of Ephesus saith in the story of s Lib. 3. cap. 2●. Eusebius. Hitherto the Priestly attire of the head, mentioned by t In. lib●, de monogamia. Tertullian. Hitherto the stole mentioned by S. u In Orat. suneb. de obit. fratr. satire. Ambrose, and by the x Concil. Brabant car. 1. can. 32. & Tolet. 4. can. 39 Counsels of Braga and Toledo. Hitherto the copes, which y Haeres. 15. & 16. Epiphanius calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hitherto the Deacons albe, as it is named in the z Concil. Car. thag. 4▪ can. 4●. Council of Carthage: a In Liturg. Chrysostom nameth it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hitherto the robes, or hangings, with the which the altar is beautified, in the story of b Lib. 1. cap. 31. Theodoret. Hitherto the linen clothes, and the coverings, wherewith (as c Lib. 6. contr. Parmenianum. Optatus doth expressly mention) altars in old time were covered, as they are now. Hitherto the holy rob that reached down to the feet, in d Lib. 10. cap. 4. Eusebius. To conclude, hitherto belongeth the amice, the girdle, the chisible, the fanel, and the corporace: which the Greek Fathers e In Liturgii● suis. Chrysostom, and Basil, note also by their names, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Which all to have been holy, and consecrated to this function, the same Fathers testify. There is in f Lib. 2. cap. 27. Theodoret a notable example of an enterlude-plaier, who wearing on a stage a holy garment, that he had bought, fell suddenly down and died. Of the like vengeance of God there are examples in g De p●rsequut. Vandal. lib. 1. Victor, and h Histor. Angli●. l. 1. cap. 29. Bede. And i Lib. 1. con●●a Parmenian●m▪ Optatus also, more ancient than they both, doth sharply touch the Donatists for spoiling and profaning the ornaments of the Church. Rainoldes. Here is a fair tale for them, whose eyes are dim, and cannot judge of colours. But they who can discern between words, and proofs, do see that never less was said with greater show. For, the point whereof proof should be made, is that the vestments which are worn of Bishops and Priests saying Mass, were used all of them by the primitive Church. The words which D. Stapleton speaketh of this point, are so far from proving it, that the most of them do not as much as touch it. For the copes, which k Haeres. 15. & 16. Epiphanius (he saith) calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, are the garments which the Scribes & Pharises did wear with * Matt. 23.5. phylacteries, and fringes. And the Scribes and Pharises (I trow) said not Mass. l Lib. 1. cap. 31. The robes or hangings of the altar in Theodoret, are 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. coverings. The coverings and linen clothes, in m Lib. 6. contra Parmenia●um. Optatus, are ornaments of the Communion table, such as we also use. Is our communion Mass too? Hart. ●ay, he calleth it an altar. Rainoldes. By a figure, as n Before in this Division. pag. 552. I have showed. For by the name of [altar] he meaneth a table, as these his words declare: who of the faithful knoweth not that 2 Ipsa lig●a li●teamine cooperiti? the boards themselves are covered with a linen cloth in celebrating of the sacrament? Of this kind is also the cloth called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which word importeth not so much as your o Durand. in Ration. l. 4. c. 29. corporace: but though it did, of this kind it is in the counterfeit p In the Liturgies that bear their names. Chrysostom and Basil. As for the examples of the vengeance of God on them who profanely did abuse garments appointed unto holy uses: the first, in q Lib. 2. cap. 27 Theodoret, is not of a Massing but a baptizing garment, (a peculiar solemnity more than yourselves use:) to omit that the matter of the enterlude-player was devised to spite a Bishop▪ whose harm was sought as having sold it. The second, in r Persequu●. Va●●d. lib. 1. U●●●or, is of the linen clothes and coverings of the altar, such as I spoke of in Optatus. The third, in s Histor. Anglican. lib. 1. cap. 29. Bede, is added to make up the tale: for there is no such s●orie. Finally, the Church-ornamentes, which t Lib. 1. co●tr. Parmenian. Optatus showeth that covetous men would have spoiled, were of gold and silver: vessels belike, & plate, wherewith S. u Epist. 2. add Nepotian. de vita clericorum cap. 12. jerom noteth that many (though he reprove it as jewish and superstitious) did deck up Christistian Churches after the example of the temple in Iury. But whether they were vessels, as dishes and cups for bread and wine at the Communion, or whatsoever other instruments, or jewels: Optatus neither saith, nor seemeth to say, that they were Massing-vestiments. There remaineth the mitre, the stole, the albe, the amice, the girdle, the chisible, & the fanel. Which first are far beneath the number of fifteen; and so they reach not to all your Massing-vestiments. Then, for sundry of them, it appeareth not that they were such as yours; or rather it is plain that they were not such. Lastly, if they were such: yet how doth it follow that they came from the Apostles? Which is the point that Stapleton would and ought to prove; or else farewell the Trent-councell. Hart. Came not the Bishoply mitre from the Apostles, which S. john, an Apostle and Evangelist did wear, as you may see in x Hist. eccles. lib. 3. cap. 25. Eusebius? Rainoldes. Polycrates, whom Eusebius allegeth, doth not mention a mitre, but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is to say, a thin plate, such as was y Exod. 28.36. the plate of gold set in the front of the mitre of Aaron, the high Priest of the jews, that it might be upon his his forehead. Hart. But Polycrates signified a mitre by that [plate,] after a figure of speech, wherein a part is used to signify the whole. Rainoldes. Nay, if you come to figures, it is more likely that Polycrates, in saying, S. john was 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. a Priest that did bear the plate, meant (by an allusion to the law of Moses) that he entered as it were into the sanctuary with prerogative, and had the very mysteries of God * Reu. 1.1. revealed to him. Whereto S. z Descriptor. ecclesiast. verbo Polycrates. jerom seemeth somewhat to incline: who translating the same of Polycrates touching john, saith, that he was a high Priest bearing the plate of gold upon his head. For if he had used to bear a plate of gold in deed, upon his forehead: sure, when a Act. 3.2. Peter said, silver and gold have I none, to the cripple who desired an alms of Peter and him, that plate would not have saved his forehead from blushing. Neither is it nothing that Polycrates mentioned 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉▪ or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the plate, and not a mitre: sith Exod. 28.40. other of the jewish Priests did wear 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. mitres; none, but th● high Priest, the plate. Howbeit, if the word were meant as you would have it, and S. john had worn a mitre like to Aaron: yet his example proveth not that all Apostles, much less that all Bishops wore it. Nay, the special note thereof in S. john doth rather prove the contrary: as, when we read that c Mat. 3.4. john Baptist had his garment of camels hear, and a girdle of skin, we gather that all preachers wore not such apparel. Hart. But infulae, that is a Priestly attire of the head, which d De monogam. Tertullian speaketh of, was common to them all: and the mitre seemeth to be the same with us, that infulae with him. Rainoldes. I grant that the attire, which Tertullian speaketh of, doth touch your mitre nearer: but it doth not prove it. For e Cic. in Verr. lib. 4. Virg. Aeneid. lib. 2 infulae were mitres, which the heathenish Priests, as namely the 4 Sacerdotes Cereris c●m infulis. Priests of Ceres, and 5 Apollinis infula. Apollo did wear in their solemnities. Of the which ceremony Tertullian deriving a proverbial phrase (after the manner of his style) doth say touching Christians, who refuse to be counted Priests, that 6 Deponimus insulas. they lay down the mitres. In deed it is likely the mitres of your Bishops came from that heathenish rite: although they draw some what from the jewish custom, as f Comment. reip. Roman. lib. 2. cap. 3. Wolfgangus Lazius, your friend, hath well observed. But it is neither true, nor fit for you to hold, that it was a mitre worn by Christian Priests which Tertullian meant. Not fit for you to hold: lest all Priests be proved to have as good right to the mitre, as your Bishops; which doctrine they will never account of, as catholic. Not true: because your Bishoply mitres were not used in many hundred years after Tertullian. Hart. No? Is it not written in g Dist. 96. c. ●onstantimus. the donation of Constantine, that when he offered Pope Silvester a golden crown beset with gems, the Pope refused it, and only took a white mitre? Rainoldes. What tell you me again of that foolish forgery? Which yet doth make the first original of the mitre younger than Tertullian: But the true records and monuments of antiquity do show that it was not bred a great while after. For h De eccles. office lib. 2 cap. 22. Amalarius Fortunatus, and i De institut. elericorum lib. 1. c. 14. & deinceps. Rabanus Maurus, and k De exord. & increm. ●erum eccles. cap. 24. Walafridus Strabo who lived above eight hundred years after Christ, and wrote of the vestments which Bishops wore in their days, make no mention of it. And l De divin. offitijs. cap. de singulis vestibus. Alcuinus, the Master of Charles the great, who lived and wrote not long before them, treating of Priestly vestments, and therein of the mitre of the jewish Priests: 7 Huius cemodi vestis non habetur in Romana ecclesia, vel in nostris regionibus. we have not (saith he) such a vestiment in the Church of Rome, or in our countries. Yea m Sermon. in synod. de significat. indumentorum sacerdot. Iuo Carnotensis, who lived three hundred years after Alcuinus, doth show that in his days it was not yet come in: and, with express mention of the plate of gold, he saith that no Priests of the new Testament do wear it. Wherefore the first and highest of your Massing-vestiments is neither confirmed by the plate in Eusebius, nor by the mitres in Tertullian. The next is the stole: whereof you have no better proof in S. n In oration. funebr. de obit. fratr. satire. Ambrose. For that, which he mentioneth, was either a towel, (as it may seem,) or a napkin, wherein his brother Satyrus caused the sacrament to be wrapped up, and laid it to his neck. At least, seeing Satyrus was neither Priest, nor perfect Christian: what show have you of likelihood that it was a Massing-vestiment? Hart. S. Ambrose calleth it orarium. And orarium is used in the o Concil. Tolet. 4. can. 39 Council of Toledo for the same that stola, that is, a stole, as we call it. Rainoldes. But if S. Ambrose meant a stole by orarium, because the Council meant so: then stol● in p Alevin. de divin. office cap. de vestibus. Amalar. de eccles. office lib. 2. cap. 20. the later writers of those matters must be a woman's garment, because it is so in q Etymologiar. lib. 19 cap. 25. Isidore, who lived nearer to them, than did S. Ambrose to the Council. And as for that Council, and the other of Braga: no marvel if the stole be mentioned in them. For they were kept at * Above six hundred years after Christ. that time when rites did steal in upon religion very fast. Though neither was it then half settled in the Mass yet: as by a later r Concil. Bracarens. 3. cap. 3. Council of Braga may be gathered. Howbeit, if it had been: your proof faileth still. For you may not say that because a Spanish Council speaketh of it, therefore the Church had it by tradition of the Apostles. Unless you will say also, that your shaven crowns ought to be great circles about the whole head by the tradition of the Apostles, and not such little circles on the top of the head only, as now a days are made: because s Concil. Tolet. 4. cap. 40. a Spanish Council condemneth 1 In sol● capitis apice modicum circulum tondent. the shaving of those little circles as 2 Ritus haereticorum. a rite of heretics, and alloweth none, but great ones. So far of the stole. There followeth the albe. For which the Deacons albe, so named in the t Concil. Carthag. 4. can. 41. Council of Carthage, maketh nothing. For though the name of albe be derived from alba, by which word the Council doth note a white garment, as it were a surplice, forbidding the Deacons to wear it all the service time: yet the thing differeth from your Massing-albe which is peculiar to Priests, as u Dist. 93. cap. Diaconus in cónuentu. in glossa. Durand. in Ration divine. office lib. 3. cap. 1. the Canonists also declare on the same word of the Council of Carthage. Which difference removeth your proof, out of x In Liturg. Chrysostom, touching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 too. For what soever kind of garment that were: it was common to the Deacons, not proper to the Priests; and therefore not your Massing-albe. Hitherto the holy rob (in y Lib. 10. cap. 4. Eusebius,) that reached down to the feet, should be referred by z Amalar. de ec●les. office lib. 2. cap. 18. Durand. in Rati. on. divin. office l. 3. c. 3. their judgement, who compare the garments of Aaron with yours. But Stapleton, who found that holy rob in Eusebius, might have found withal an other meaning of it by the words following. For he, whose oration Eusebius doth report, telleth Bishops that they are clad with * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the holy rob that reached down to the feet, and with the heavenly crown of glory, and with the unction of God, and with the Priestly garment of the holy Ghost. Wherein, as the garment, and unction, and crown do signify spiritual gifts, not things corporal: so the holy rob that reached down to the feet betokeneth that function, which a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Exod. 28. ver. 31. that rob b ver. 35. in Aaron did represent and shadow. Hart. You persuade not me that he alluded so to the rob of Aaron: but that he meant in deed a rob which Christian Bishops wore. Rainoldes. And what gain you by it, if so much were granted? For you cannot prove by any circumstance of the place, that it must be a Massing-robe. The only show of any such is in your last proof out of the Greek Fathers, Chrysostom, and Basil; or rather, out of the Liturgies, which falsely bear their names; or rather, out of some copies ofthose Liturgies, wherein are mentioned the amice, the girdle, the chisible, and the fanel. Howbeit, if a man should sift the Greek words, out of the which you pick these, and confer your amice with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, your biggin of the head with their shoulder garment, your one chord or fanel with their more 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, your chisible with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: perhaps he should leave the girdle post alone to bind your proof with. And doubtless, in that which is most maske-like, and lest beseemeth Christian Pastors at public service, I mean that which the Priest at Mass weareth uppermost, the chisible you call it (I trow) or upper vestiment: the Greek word declareth that you do wrong to the Grecians in matching that of theirs with yours. For the word 1 Derived from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, (which word S. Paul useth 2. Tim. 4.13.) the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 answering t● the Latin, pan●l●. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, by the which their upper vestiment is noted, doth signify a cloak: a garment worn much ( c Tertullia●. lib. de pallio. as single, and ready) by Christians in old time, chief by the Grecians, whose Bishops kept it thence belike in solemnities, when other wise they left it off▪ But your upper vestiment is far from that singleness: nor is it like to that common garment, but to a little cottage, (whence it is named 2 A diminuti●●●t casa▪ a cottage. The English word, chisible came (as it seemeth) from that Latin casula, but doth not express the force of it. casula,) closing the Priest round as it were with walls, and having a hole for him to put out his head at, as it were a loover-hole to let out the smoke at. Hart. The high Priest of the jews had the like rob. Rainoldes. Like your cottage-vestiment? Which rob was that? Hart. If not like our upper vestiment altogether, yet like in that respect that it was close about, d Exod. 2●. 3●. with a hole for his head in the ●●ddes of it. And therefore you need not to scoff in such sort at that kind of vestiment. Rainoldes. If you take the little cottage to be a scoff, it is not my scoff, but your own e Durand. in r●t●on. divin. office lib. 3. cap. 7. Doctors, whose * Casula dicitu● quasi parva casa. words I do but open. Yourself are rather faulty, who compare your cottage-ragge patched by man's brain, with a Priestly rob made by God's commandment. And yet, in that you match your vestiment with the jewish for the form of it, I reprove you not. For though there be difference between theirs, and yours, in sundry respects: yet yours were taken up after the example, and made in likeness of theirs. Which is plainly showed by those ancient authors whom I named before, Alcuinus, Amalarius, and Walafridus Strabo. Of whom the f Alcuin. de divin. office cap. de singulis ves●ibus. first treating of Massing-vestiments, saith, that the Church received them 1 Ad instar sacerdotum Mosaicae legis. after the fashion of the Priests of Moses law. The g Amalar. de ecclesiastic. office lib 2. c. 22. next, that our high Priest (he meaneth every Bishop) hath them 2 Ad normam Aaronis. after the rule of Aaron. The h Walafrid. St●abo de exord. & incrementis rerum eccles. cap. 24. last, that they came in by little & little: for at the first (saith he) men celebrated Masses in common apparel, as certain of the east Church are said to do till this day. And so he goeth forward showing in particular, how Stephen, and Silvester, and other Popes, and Prelates did softly bring them in, and some devised this, some that, either to resemble the robes of the jewish Priests, or to note a mystery. To be short, it is showed plainly by them all, that the Massing-vestiments of Bishops at that time (which was eight hundred years after Christ) were but eight in number: just as many as Aaron's. Whereof the former seven, (for the eighth was proper to Archbishops only) are grown now to be fifteen, more than twice as many. And do you not perceive hereby, M. Hart, how lewdly D. Stapleton allegeth the Fathers, to prove your Massing-vestimentes all to have been used by the primitive Church? How falsely the Council of Trent doth father them, nor only them but also lights, incense, crossings, and other ceremonies of the Mass on the tradition of the Apostles? And saw I not truly that if you see not how the Christian worship of God in spirit and truth doth differ from the jewish, and so might succeed it: the cause thereof (by likelihood) is the vail of Popery, which having brought in a jewish kind of worship doth hide it from your eyes? For is it not evident that the jewish Heb. 1●▪ ●. Col. 2.17. shadows, that is, the dark lineaments of Christ, as of a picture, which he abolished by his coming as being the image itself and body of them, are drawn out again by the painters of your religion? Or may not he, that hath but half an eye, see, that you surpass the jews in sundry shows of outward service, and go beyond the priesthood of Aaron in carnal rites? For the most whereof though you have meanings mystical▪ or spiritual matters which they are said to figure in other significations than the jewish did: yet they set the Church to school with new Gal. 4.3. & 5.1. rudiments after a jewish manner, and press it with that bondage from which the Lord hath made it free. Wherefore, were they taken from the jews, or not: yet in respect of us, on whom God hath not laid them, they are of Col. 2.22. the commandments & doctrines of men. And we may justly say of them, now being bred, the same, that S· m Epist. 119. ad D●ua●. cap. 1●. Austin said, when they were breeding: Although it can not be found in what sense they are against the faith, yet religion itself which God of his mercy would have to be free under P●●●issimis & m●●itostis. ic●● celebration●● s●cramen●●. very few and most manifest ceremonies of divine service, is by them oppressed so with servile burdens, that the case and state of the jews is more tolerable; who although they have not acknowledged the time of liberty, yet are they 〈◊〉 with the packs of God's law, not with the devices and presumptions of men. Hart. It is a calumnious speech that our ceremonies are shadows, or rudiments, or keep the Church in bondage as the jewish did. For theirs were very many, cumbersome, & dark: ours are v●ry few, easy, and significant. As S. n De doctrine Christ. lib. 3. cap. 9 Austin saith, that since that our liberty hath shined most brightly by Christ's resurrection, we are not laden with a heavy charge of signs, as were the jews: but our Lord himself and the Apostolic discipline hath delivered to us 2 Quaedam p●uca pro multis, eadem●ue factu facillima. some few in steed of many, and them most easy to be done, most honourable for signification, most clean and pure to be observed. But you would have (me thinks) no ceremonies at all: for you said that the worship of God amongst Christians is spiritual merely. Rainoldes. I spoke in comparison of the jewish worship: or rather Christ, not I For they are his words, that o job. 4. ver. 23. God will be worshipped now in spirit and truth. Which must needs be meant of mere spiritual worship: sith the reason following, that p ver. 24. God is a spirit, doth show that the jews did worship him in spirit too. And yet is that spoken in comparison, as I said. For Christ himself ordained two principal ceremonies, which we call the sacraments, his q Luk. 2●. 19. Supper, and his r Matt. 28. 1●. Baptism. And the Church-assemblies, s Act. 2.42. which are helps most necessary for us to learn and practise that spiritual worship, must have their time, when; their place, where; their manner, how; things to be directed t 1. Cor. 14. ver. 40. with coomelinesse and order, in rites fit u ver. 26. to edify. But these are few in number and clear in signification. So few, that they are nothing in comparison of the jewish: so clear, that they do lively represent Christ, and are no dark shadows. Now whether that your Popish ceremonies have kept this fewnes, and clearness. Hart. Perhaps you mean because we have seven sacraments, and not two only. But the Fathers, as namely S. Austin (though x Apolog. e●cles. Anglic. your men allege him to the contrary,) do name other sacraments beside the lords Supper (as you call it) and Baptism. Rainoldes. But S. Austin nameth not your seven sacraments, as you may see by his y Confession. Augustin. lib. ●. cap. 1. tit. 5. Confession. Hart. Yet he nameth more than your two sacraments. And the rest of ours are proved by other Fathers. Whereupon the z Sess. 7. the Sacrament. in genere can. 1. Council of Trent hath defined that there are seven sacraments of the new law, neither more, nor fewer: & they all are sacraments truly and properly. Rainoldes. The a Tertullian. advers. judae. & contr. Martion. lib. 5. Hilar. in Matthae. can. 12. & 13. Leo epist. 10.11.12.13. & passim. Fathers do commonly use the word [sacrament] for a mystery or sign of a holy thing. And so you may prove seven and twenty sacraments by them, as well as seven. Which is manifest by S. b Epist. 5. ad Marcellin. De civit. Dei lib. 10. cap. 5. Contr. adverse. leg. & Prophetarum lib. 2. cap. 9 Austin, whom you pretend herein most. For as he giveth the name of sacrament to c August. de bono coniug. c. 18. marriage, to d Contr. epist. Parmenian. lib. 2. cap. 13. the ordering of ministers, to e De baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 5. cap. 20. laying on of hands, and f De adultery. coniug. cap. 26. & 28. reconci●●ng of the repentant: so he giveth it to g Epist. 23. ad Bonifacium. Easter, and to the Lords day, h De peccat. merit. & remission. l. 2. cap. 26. to the sanctifying and i De symb. ad ca●echumen. lib. 4. cap. 1. instructing of novices in the faith, the feeding, the signing, the catechizing of them, the making of prayers, the singing of Psalms, and so forth to other holy rites and actions. But as the word [sacrament] is taken in a straighter signification, to note the visible signs inistuted by Christ for the assurance and increase of grace in the faithful, which is the sense of it both with k Concil. Trident. Sess. 7. in proem. & de Sacrament. in gen. can. 1. you, and l Articuli religion. eccles. Anglican. cap. de Sacramentis. us, when we speak of sacraments: so doth m De doctrine. Christian. l. 3. c. 9 Epist. 11●. ad januar▪ cap. 1. he name those two, as principal ones, by an excellency; and, when n joh. 19.34. there issued blood and water out of Christ's side, o Augustin. de s●mb. ad catechum●nos lib. 2. cap. ●. these are * Gemina sacramenta ecclesiae. the two sacraments (saith he) of the Church, meaning the lords supper by blood, by water baptism. Yea, the Schoolmen themselves, who were the first authors that did raise them up to the precise number of seven, no more, nor fewer; for you ●●nde it not in any of the Fathers or other writers whatsoever before a thousand years after Christ: but the Schoolmen themselves have showed that the seven are not all sacraments, if the name of sacrament be taken properly and straightly. For neither can marriage so be of the number, as p Durand. de S. P●rtian. in 4. Sent. distinct. 26. quaest. 3. Durand proveth well: neither confirmation (the chrism of oil and balm) as q In 4. Sentent. dist. 7. art. ●. quaest. 2. Bonaventure teacheth. And, to be short, their captain r Summ. Theologic. part. 4. quaest. 5. membr. ●. art 2. & membr. 3. art. 2. Alexander of Alice doth avouch expressly, that there are 1 Sola duo principalia. only two principal sacraments, 2 A Domino in●●ituta per se ipsum. which Christ himself did institute: so that (by his confession) as we speak of sacraments, there are two only. But my meaning was not to blame you for seven. I spoke of all your ceremonies, which are (I may say boldly) seventy times seven. Which whether that they be so few, and so clear in comparison of the jewish, as I have declared and you confess that Christian ceremonies should be: let the learned judge by comparing of your Church-bookes, chief the s Sacrarum ceremoniarum Romanae ecclesiae libri tres. Ceremonial, t Pontificale Romanum in tres distinctum parts. Pontifical, and u Missale Romanum, in rubricis Missalis, ritibus celebrandi Missam, & defectibus circa Missam occurrent●bus. Missal, with x Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers. the books of Moses. Let the unlearned guess by the store and strangeness of sacrificing vestments: whereof y Exod. 28.40. their common Priests had three, yours have six; their high Priest had eight, your Bishops have fifteen at least, and some sixteen, beside z Innocent. Mysterior. Missae. lib. 1. cap. 53. & l. 2. c. 7. the Pope's prerogative-robes. And so, to leave this matter to their consideration: your own confession, yieldeth enough for my purpose touching the place of Malachi. For if the spiritual worshipping of God, wherewith the jews did serve him, had ceremonies in number more, in signification darker, than it hath amongst the Gentiles: this kind of serving him with fewer ceremonies & cléerer is proper to the Gentiles, & might succeed that which was amongst the jews. Wherefore D. Allens third, & fourth reasons, whereby he would prove that the offering spoken of in Malachi the Prophet must signify the outward sacrifice of the Mass, and not spiritual sacrifices, can take no hold against us. No more than ours could take against you of the contrary, if we should conclude that it must betoken a spiritual worship not outward offerings on an altar, because outward offerings are common to the jews with us, and this is proper to the Gentiles: and this should succeed the jewish worship of God, and come in steed of it, which no outward offerings and sacrifices can do, sith they are coupled always to God's spiritual worship. Would you allow these reasons? Hart. They are not like to D. Allens. But the fifth reason doth put the matter out of doubt. For, (in the judgement chief of heretics,) 1 Nostra opera sunt inquinata, utcunque speciosa vide antur. our works are defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful: but that 2 Prophetica oblatio per se munda est. Prophetical offering is clean of itself, and so clean of itself in comparison of the old sacrifices, that it cannot be polluted any way by us or by the worst Priests. For here in our testament, they can not choose all the best to themselves, and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the feeble, the lame, and the sick, as before in the old: because there is now one sacrifice so appointed, that it can not be changed; so clean, that no work of ours can distain it. Rainoldes. And think you M. Hart, that the works of Christians can not be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of, because they are defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful? Think you thus in deed? Then you consent yet in the chiefest point of Christian religion (which God grant you do) with heretics, as you term us. For, if our works be defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful, chief as heretics judge: then are men justified by faith, not by works. If our works be defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful: then fulfil we not the law of God perfectly, much less super-erogate. If our works be defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful: then are they meritorious of everlasting death, but everlasting life it is impossible they should merit. Hart. Nay, I meant not so. For though they be defiled, as they are of ourselves: yet as they are of Christ, whose grace worketh in us, they are pure and perfect. Rainoldes. Then, as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, so they may be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of. For they are pure and perfect so, and therefore clean by your own opinion. Hart. But the Prophetical offering is clean of itself. Our works are not clean of themselves, but of Christ: and therefore can not be that offering. Rainoldes. Now may you feel the falsehood of D. Allens dealing. For himself addeth those words [ * Per se. of itself,] to make his reason serve: the Prophet saith no more but that a Mal. 1.11. the offering is clean. Wherefore sith our works are clean and undefiled; chief as Papists judge: our works might be meant by the Prophetical offering, howsoever they be unperfit and impure of themselves. Hart. What? And do you think, M. Rainoldes, that our works, though unclean of themselves, yet as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, are clean and undefiled? And see you not then, that of the other side you consent in the chiefest point of Catholic faith with Papists, as you term us? For if you think in deed that our works be clean, as they are wrought by grace: then must you needs think that we may so fulfil the law, and merit life, and be justified by works, not by faith only. Rainoldes. I meant not so, M. Hart. But according to the proverb, that for a hard knot a hard wedge must be sought, I thought good to cleave a Popish dream in sunder with a Popish fancy. For otherwise, I know, that, although our works be wrought by Christ's grace: yet is man's nature and flesh in us who work them, and therefore do they carry a stain of uncleanness. It was of grace, that the children of Israel did consecrate their holy things and gifts to God. Yet that work of theirs was not free from spot: in so much that b Exod. 2●. ver. 36. Aaron must bear on his forehead a plate of pure gold, wherein was engraven, Holiness of the Lord, (a monument of Christ) c ver. 38. that he might take away the iniquity of 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the holy things which they consecrated, of all the gifts of their holy things; and he should bear it always to make them acceptable before the Lord. It is of grace, that the Saints of God do pray to him. Yet, d Reu. 8.3. the other Angel, that stood before the altar with a golden censer, had much odours given him 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. that he might put them into the prayers of all the Saints upon the golden altar which is before the throne, and the smoke of the odours put into the prayers went up before God out of the Angel's hand. Which is a token that the prayers of Saints have their infirmity: and yield no sweet smelling favour unto God, without favour in Christ. To be short, in all the gracious and good works of men, e Phil. 2.13. God doth work in us both to will, and to do. But f Rom. 8. ver. 21. evil is so present with us, that g ver. 18. the good which we would do, we can not: we would, through God's grace; we can not, through our frailty. Yea, when we do good, it is a will rather of doing, than a doing; we are so far from perfect doing it. For we ought to h Luk. 20. ●7. love God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our strength, & with all our thought: and our neighbours, as ourselves. But as long as i Gal. 5.17. the flesh doth lust against the spirit, and k Rom. 7. ver, 23. a law in our members doth rebel against the law of our mind; which is as long as we are in l ver. 24. this body of death: we love him not with all our heart, soul, strength, and thought, but with part; and therefore in lesser measure, than we ought. Now, whatsoever is less, than it should be, is faulty: for it transgresseth m Deut. 4. ●. & 12. ●2. his commandment. Wherefore sith our works should be done with perfect love of God and men, and that perfect love we have not in this life: it followeth that our works in this life are faulty; yea, though they 〈◊〉 wrought by the grace of Christ. Not as though his grace had any blemish, (God forbid;) but because ourselves, in whom it worketh, are corrupt: as water, though it flow from a fountain most clear, yet, if it do run through a muddy channel, it becometh muddy. So neither fulfil we the law in any work, much less in all our works, which they must do, who will fulfil it; for n jam. ●. 10. he that offendeth in one, is guilty of all: neither can we merit aught at God's hands, much less eternal life; for o Luk. 17. ver. 9 he oweth us no thanks p ver. 10. though we did all things which are commanded us, because we ought to do them; and what is our desert then, who do not all things? neither may we possibly be justified by works before the judgement seat of God; for q Gal. 3.10. cursed is every man that continueth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law, to do them, and r jam. ●. 2. we all offend in many things. Hart. But if all our works be muddy, as you say, and stained with uncleanness: then is it much surer that the clean offering, which the Prophet speaketh off, cannot betoken them. For the Lord reproveth the jewish Priests there for s Mal. 1.7. offering unclean bread, and sacrificing the blind, the lame, and the sick. Wherefore sith of the contrary he saith that the offering made among the Gentiles shall be a clean offering: it followeth that he meant not the spiritual sacrifices, that is, the works of Christians; and what then, but the outward sacrifice of the Mass? Rainoldes. In deed if clean things stained with uncleanness were the very same that unclean things: you might justly think that our spiritual sacrifices could not be allowed, no more than the carnal of those jewish Priests. But the only sacrifice that is clean perfectly, and hath no stain at all, is t 1. Pet. 1.19. & 2.22. Christ, the undefiled and unspotted Lamb, u Heb. 9.25. & ●3. 12. offered on the cross to sanctify us with his blood. The sacrifices of the faithful are clean, but unperfitly: and therefore need his favour, with pardon, (as I showed,) that they may be x 1. Pet. 2.5. acceptable to God through jesus Christ. The sacrifices of the wicked, and hypocrites, are unclean: as being either unlawful, such as were y Leu. 22.22. the blind, and lame, and sick among the jews; or offered unlawfully, with z Tit. 1.15. minds and consciences defiled. So the sacrifices of those jewish Priests, which God reproveth, were absolutely unclean. Our spiritual sacrifices are unperfitly clean: clean in comparison, and clean by acceptation. Clean in comparison & respect of men: as Habacuk complaining that a Hab. 1.13. the wicked man deuouteth the righteous, saith, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 him that is righteous in respect of himself; praising not the righteous man as simply righteous, but in comparison of the wicked. Clean by acceptation in the sight of God: who dealing as a loving father with his children, taketh in good part that which they do willingly, though they do it weakly. For as b Leu. 22.20. he accepted the sacrifices of the jews, when they offered the best and soundest that they had: so when c isaiah. 66.20. the Gentiles were brought him for an offering, in like sort as the Israelites do offer an offering in a clean vessel, d Rom. 15.16. the offering up of them was acceptable to him. And thus might the spiritual sacrifices of Christians be meant by the clean offering, whereof the Lord saith in the Prophet Malachi that it shall be offered to him in every place. According to the scripture, that instructeth us e 1. Tim. 2.8. to pray in every place, lifting up pure hands without wrath, and doubting. For though neither our prayers be so entire and fervent, nor our hands so pure, and unspotted of the world, nor our minds so settled in love of our neighbour, nor our faith so constant, and steadfast towards God, but that they be stained with remnants of uncleanness, and have less perfectness than they should: yet are they all clean in respect of f Mal. 1. ver. 8. & 13. the sacrifices of those jewish hypocrites, which God in the Prophet rejecteth as g ver. 7. & 12. unclean; and so, where he h ver. 10. & 13. refuseth to accept theirs, he i Mal. 3.4. promiseth to accept ours, and showeth that k Rom. 12.1. Phil. 4.18. Heb. 1●. 16. they please him well. Wherefore the Mass findeth no footing in Malachi by D. Allens fifth reason. Now the sixth, and last, which he concludeth with, as it were to set the Mass in full possession of the clean offering mentioned by Malachi: doth dispossess it clean and casteth out the reasons which he brought to strengthen it. For the Fathers expound it of our l Tertullian. adverse. judaeos. spiritual sacrifices, of m Contr. Martion. l. 3. & 4. prayers, of n Augustin. contr. adversar leg. lib. 1. cap. 18. & contr. lit. Pe●ilian. lib. 2. cap. 86. thanks giving, of o Hieron. in Zachar. cap. 8. holiness, of p Euseb. demonstrat. evang. lib. 1. godly works, of q Tertullian. advers. judaeos. repentant hearts, of r Euseb. demonstrat. evang. lib. 1. cleansed minds, and bodies sanctified, of s Irenae. lib. 4. cap. 32.33. & 34. justin. Mart. in Tryphon. the gifts offered in Christian Church-assemblies, and of t Theodoret. in Malach. cap. 1. cyril. de adorat. in spirit. & verit. the whole worship wherewith we honour him in spirit and truth. Wherein to say that they mean the sacrifice of the Mass by the sacrifice of prayer, and the spiritual sacrifice, as he ●aith they do, and that they call it so because 1 Vic●●ma hic existens. Victima is a live thing killed to be sacrificed. Which word he applieth to the sacrifice of the Mass, because he maintaineth that Christ there is killed and sacrificed to God his father. Alan. de eucharist. sacrific. cap. 11. ver● mactatur, ac immolatur. the victim, that is here, hath not a gross, carnal, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victims of the jews: it is gross, and carnal. For the victim, (as you term it) which they mean, and speak of, is either u Euseb. demonstrat. evang. lib. 1. ourselves, purified by faith; o● x Iren. lib. 4. cap. 34. Tertullian. contra Maction. lib. 4. our fruits, accepted as pure from persons purified: not Christ, killed, and sacrificed unto God his Father, which is your Massing-uictime, pure of itself, and purifying others, as you fancy. Yea, sith it is granted by D. y In that he saith of Austin, licet libro secundo contra literas Petiliani de sacrificio laudis exponat. Allens own words, that Austin, expounding it of the sacrifice of praise, meaneth not the sacrifice of the Mass thereby: let z Contr. litter. Petiliani lib. ●. cap. ●6. that place of Austin he weighed with the rest of a Contr. adversar leg. lib. 1. cap. 18. & 20. his and b Chrysost. contr. judaeos orat. 2. Hic●o●. in Malach. cap. 1, Cyprian. lib. 1. cap. 16. contr. judaeos, and the rest alleged. other Fathers, and it shall be found that Malachi toucheth not the Mass in their judgement, by D. Allens own grant. The six reasons therefore which he setteth forth, as 2 Argumenta valida & plané bona. strong, and very good, for the proof thereof, prove it no better out of the Prophets in the old testament: then do his bare words out of the Apostles in the new. In deed there is no letter through all the scriptures for it. And thus much perhaps himself hath espied, since he wrote his treatise of the sacrifice of the Mass. For in his Apology of the English Seminaries, (where he would of likelihood make the strongest proof of it, that he could, for the defence of mass-priests, and the mass-priests Nourseries,) c The Apology of the English Seminaries chapped. 6. he citeth not the scriptures, but the Father's only. Which, unless he thought that the scriptures fail him, I see not why he should. Chief, sith he knoweth, that they, whose good liking of mass-priests, & the Mass he seeketh specially to win by his Apology, do give greater credit to five words of God then to ten thousand words of men. Hart. Nay, you are deceived much in D. Allen, if you think his judgement changed any whit from that it was in this point. But in his Apology he citeth the Father's only, not the scriptures, because you have colours of spiritual sacrifices to shift the scriptures off; but you cannot the Fathers so. For they all were masspriests themselves, and said Mass. Rainoldes. What one of them, M. Hart? If you speak indeed to the point of the Mass, and daily not, as D. Allen: who maketh masspriests of the Apostles, because they did consecrate the body and blood of Christ, and offer it. For if to consecrate and offer, as d 1. Cor. 10.16. & 11.24. they did, be to say Mass: then we say Mass in our Communion, and our Ministers are mass-priests Which (I think) you mean not. Hart. I mean that all the Fathers said Mass, as we do; and were, as we be, mass-priests. Which he meaneth also, and proveth by the most of them. For so was S. Ambrose, e Lib 5. epist. 33 testifying of himself that he offered sacrifice, and said Mass, even in that plain term. Rainoldes. In that plain term? Why? S. Ambose spoke not English, I trust. Hart. No. But he saith in Latin, Missam facere. Rainoldes. That is not to say Mass, but to do mass, or rather to dimisse. * Paulinam coniunxit sibi brevique missam fecit. Missam fecit, in f In Caligula cap. 25. Suetonius, would prove the Mass as well as that. Which I dare not say that perhaps himself espied since he wrote it, lest again you tell me that I am much deceived in him. But in g Concertat. eccles. Cathol. in Angl. adver. Caluinop. & Purit. his Apology turned into Latin, S. Ambroses' missam facere is changed into missam dixisse. And so the words are fit to prove he said Mass. Hart. Dixisse, or facere: the matter standeth not in that, but in the word missa. From which sith the name of Mass doth come in English: it followeth that S. Ambrose did celebrate Mass, that is, say Mass, as we term it. Rainoldes. Must I tell you again, that idiot cometh from idiota? And will you say that all the simple, idiotae, who hear Mass, are idiots? Hart. That is a jest: you may not so put off my reason. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as h De interpret. Aristotle showeth. Wherefore sith the name of Mass is in S. Ambrose: how can you deny but that he did celebrate the thing, that is, the Mass itself, as we do, whom you call mass-priests? Rainoldes. And think you in earnest that S. Paul did celebrate the communion of the body and blood of Christ, as we do, who are called Ministers? Hart. As you do? who saith so? Rainoldes. You: if your reason be of any value. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as Aristotle showeth. Wherefore sith the name of communion is in S. i Cor. 10.16. Paul: how can you deny but that he did celebrate the thing, even the communion itself, as we do, who are called Ministers? Hart. Yes. For though you keep the name with S. Paul: yet you keep not the thing. As k Act. 8.9. & 13.6. sorcerers are called magi, like l Mat. 2.1. the Sages of the East: yet is their wisdom wicked, not like that of the Sages. Rainoldes. That is false M. Hart, as you refer it to our Communion. For as we keep the name, so we keep the meaning of the name too: and therefore the thing itself with S. Paul. But turn it to your Mass: and it is very true. For in S. Ambroses' time the Christian people, having public prayers in many Churches daily, m Ambr. de sacram l. 4. c. 6. & l. 5. c. 4. Hieron. ep●st. ad Lucin. & apolog. ad Pammach. pro libris contr. iovinianum. did therewithal daily receive the holy sacrament of Christ's body, and blood. Now, because sundry were at other parts of divine service, for whom it was not lawful to receive the sacrament, as 1 Ca●echumeni. In Liturg. Ba●il. & Chryso●t. novices in the faith who were not yet baptised, and 2 Abstenti. Cyprian. de Oration. Domin. such as Church discipline removed from the communion: therefore they were wont (after prayers made, and scriptures read, and taught,) n Concil. Carthag. 4. c●n. 84. usque ad missam catechumenorum. August. serm. de temp. 237. Ecce post sermonem fit missa catechumenis▪ manebunt fideles. to dimisse the rest who might not communicate, the faithful only staying to receive together. And this dismission of them was noted by the word o Isidor. orig. lib. 6. cap. 18. missa, * As the word, remissa, is used for remissio. Tertullian. contr. Martion. lib. 4. Cyprian. de bono patient. Augustin. de baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 3. cap. 18. used for missio, that is a sending away, or licensing to departed. Whence it came to pass that the very name of missa was given to that part of the service: and they were said missam facere, who celebrated the communion as S. Ambrose did. Wherefore though your sacrifice keepeth the name of Mass, that S. Ambrose used: yet doth it not keep the thing meant thereby. For neither send you them away, who receive not: and many a Mass is said that hath no communicants. Hart. But we wish (as p Sess. 22. cap. 6. the Council of Trent hath declared) that 1 Fideles adstantes. the faithful, who stand by at Mass, would communicate. Wherefore if they do not: it is through their own default, and not through ours. Rainoldes. But it is your fault that you send not them away from the communion who communicate not. And herein your Council doth vary from S. Ambrose, and other ancient Fathers, that it alloweth non-communicants to be standers by. For in the primitive Church, yea, in S. Gregory's time, (who for q Registr. l. 2. ep. 9 & 93. Ad. 3. interrogat. August. naming Mass too is made a masspriest by your Doctor,) r Gregor. Dialogor. lib. 2. cap. 2●. the Deacon was accustomed to bid them 2 Si quis non communicate, det locum, &, Non communican●es ab ecclesia exibant. departed, who did not communicate. Wherefore seeing that they meant the Communion by the name of Mass, and termed it so, because they sent away the non-communicants from it: you, who do not so, may see how fond a reason D. Allen maketh for your Mass, and masspriests, when he showeth Ambrose, Gregory, and s When Leo the great (ep ●1. cap. 2. ) took order for laying ●ao M●sses the● one, in a day, in one Church: were they not Mass priests, that said those Ma●sse●● sait● Allen in the margin of his Apolog●● in English. The last of which words are thus in his Latin. Num sorté erant sacerdotes Missificante●● that is to say, were they Mass priests▪ An error of the Latin, but speaking truer than the English, and very happily gainsaying it. For the Masses, spoken of by Leo, were communions celebrated by Ministers: at whose hands the people received the sacrament both of the body and blood of Christ▪ which they be not at the hands of mass-priests. Leo serm. 4. de quadragesima. Leo to have used that name. Then which there can be nothing in deed more against him. For if the name open the nature of the thing as Aristotle showeth: then is not your Mass, the mass of the Fathers, because it is not missa, that is, a dimissing, and sending away of them who receive not. Harte. Nay, it is not only the name of the Mass, whereon he relieth, but the thing itself. For who knoweth not (saith he) that S. t Greg. lib. 2. ep. 9 & 93. lib. 7. ep. 63. ind. 2. lib. 11. ep. 56. Ad 3. interrog. August. Gregory the great was a masspriest, who hath the very word, the manner, and the parts thereof so expressly in his Epistles: who u Bed. histor. lib. 1. cap. 29. sent all holy furniture and ornaments for the same to our Blessed Apostle. Rainoldes. What? to S. Paul, x Rom. 11.13. the Apostle of the Gentiles? Hart. I mean, to S. Austin the Apostle of the Englishmen. Rainoldes. I know no such Apostle: if you mean of that sort▪ of which y Eph. 4.11. 1. Cor. 9.1. Gal. 1.1. Christ gave Apostles; as the majesty of the words [our Blessed Apostle] should import. But the ornaments, and furniture which S. Gregory sent to Austin the monk, were not Massing-vestiments: no more than the vessels and clothes (that you mentioned before out of Optatus, and other ancient Fathers,) which served for the Communion. As for the manner and parts of the Mass, which he hath (you say) in his Epistles so expressly: all that which he hath▪ is, z Lib. 7. indict. 2. epist. 63. that there was said, 1 Halleluia. praise ye the Lord; and, the clergy saying, 2 Kyrie eleeson. Lord have mercy upon us, the people answered them with the same words; and 3 Christ eleeson. Christ have mercy upon us was said in like sort; and 4 Orationem Dominicam post 〈◊〉 lib. 11. ep. 56. the lords prayer, with the prayer (called the Canon,) was said over the offering; and Simia quám similis turpissima ●esti● nobis? after consecration the Communion was ministered. Now compare the manner and parts of your Mass with this of S. Gregory: and they are as like it, as is an * ape unto a man. For in outward gestures, and shape of face & body, that is, in show of actions, and form of words & prayers, yours resemble it. But the soul, & reason as it were of it, which is, that the people did pray with the Pastor, nor only pray together, but communicate too: that your Mass hath not. Hart. They pray, and communicate both in affection, though they receive not always the communion bodily, nor understand the prayers. Rainoldes. But, to communicate, is to b Matt. 26. ver. 26. eat, and c ver. 27. 1. Cor. 11. 2●. drink; which the people did in S. Gregory's time: and they understood the prayers which were made, that they might d 1. Cor. 14.16. say Amen thereto. Now the Priest hath swallowed up their right, in the one; and the Clerk, in the other. Hart. But the Canon of the Mass, which is the chiefest part, we have in like sort as S. Gregory had. And therein, e Gegor. in libro Sacramentor. the worship of saints, and prayers for the dead: where of there is no shadow at all in your Communion, neither can you abide them. The greater wrong you do both to him, and us, to make as though you followed that which he practised; and to say, that our Mass is no liker his, then is an ape unto a man. Rainoldes. We follow him in that, wherein he followed Christ, f 1. Cor. 11.1. and the followers of Christ. g Gregor. lib. 7. ind. 2. ep. 63. Himself beareth witness that 5 Mos Apostolorum fuit, ut ad ipsam solummodo orationem Dominicam oblationis hostiam consecrarent. the Apostles neither used nor 6 Precem quam Scholasticus con. posuerat. made that Canon, but I know not what Scholar. Wherefore, though a Scholar presenteth 7 Quorum meritis precibusque concedas. the merits and prayers of the Saints before the throne of God, desiring help for their sakes; and prayeth for the faithful, who do rest in Christ, that they may have 8 Locum refrigeri●, lucis, & pacis. a place of cooling, peace, and light: yet because our h Matt. 23.10. Master teacheth that i Matt. 3.15. joh. 8.46. & 19.30. himself alone wrought all righteousness, k Heb. 4.16. & 7.25. & 9.12. that we might find favour through his desert and intercession; and showeth that l Reu. 14.13. the dead who die in him, are blessed, and rest from their labours, m Col. 1.12. in light, n isaiah. 57.2. peace, and o Luk. 16. 1●. comfort; we follow not S. Gregory's Canon in those points, but answer him with Christ, p Matt. 19.8 from the beginning it was not so. And you, who think your Mass better than an ape in respect of his, because it resembleth his in the Canon, the chiefest part of it: may know that it resembleth his therein no better than doth an ape a man, when he sweareth by the cross of his ten bones. For the Canon also, beside that the people did hear, & understand it, recordeth 9 Quotquot ex hac altaris participatione sacrosanctum filii ●ui corpus & sanguinem sumpserimus. their receiving of the body & blood: q Amalat. For●unat. de ecclesiast. office praefat. al●. Walafrid. Strabo de rebus eccles. cap. 22. Microlog. de eccles. observat. c. 19 as do the other prayers too after the communion. Which being as it were the soul and reason of it: your Mass, which hath it not, is but an apish counterfeit of his, for all the Canon. Nay, it is in deed so much the more apish; because it hath his words, and not the meaning of them. Hart. You grate on the Communion still, as if the Canon and all S. Gregory's Mass did aim at that. Which is not so. For the principal point thereof is the sacrifice, even the sovereign sacrifice, that is, our Saviour Christ offered to God his father. And sith this is that which the Canon speaketh of, and S. Gregory offered, and the Mass importeth with us, whom you call mass-priests: it followeth that S. Gregory celebrated the sacrifice of the Mass, as we do; and therefore was a masspriest, not a Minister of the Communion. Rainoldes. Then the men & women of Rome were masspriests too in S. Gregory's time, and celebrated the sacrifice of the Mass, as you do. For the sacrifice which he offered, and the Canon speaketh of, is 1 Offeruntur a populo o● lationes & vinum: e quibus in altari pon unt●r ut sacrent●r. Greg. in lib. sacrament. Of the which it is said in the Canon of the Mass, haec dona, haec munera, haec sacrificia illibata. the bread and wine, offered by the men and women for the Communion; and 2 Sacrificium laudis. Whereof the Canon saith, memento Domine omnium circum adstantium qui tibi offerunt hoc sacrificium laudis pro se suisque omnibus. the sacrifice of praise, which they did offer all to God. Hart. Nay, it is the very body and blood of Christ. Rainoldes. The words of the Canon are plain to the contrary. For it desireth God 3 Quam oblationem tu Deus benedictam acceptabilemque facere digneris, ut nobis corpus & sanguis ●iat jesu Christi. to accept and bless their offering, that it may be made the body and blood of Christ to th●m. It was not the body, and blood of Christ therefore, but very bread and wine, which the faithful people offered to be sanctified to the use of the Communion. Hart. It was bread and wine before consecration: as it is declared by those words of the Canon. But after consecration the Canon saith of it, Hostiam puram, hostiam sanctam, hostiam immaculatam, that is, the pure, holy, and undefiled host. Rainoldes. But upon those words it followeth in the Canon: 4 Panem sand, ctum vitae aeternae, & calicem salutis perp●tuae. the holy bread of eternal life, and the cup of salvation. Wherefore the bread, and the cup, that is, the wine, though holy now, and sanctified to be the bread of life, and cup of salvation, that is, the body and blood of Christ in a mystery, but the bread, and wine are the pure, holy and undefiled sacrifice, or host (as you term it,) not only before but after consecration too. Hart. Nay, the real body, and blood of Christ are meant by the bread, and the cup, in a figurative speech: and so Christ himself, is the pure, holy, and undefiled host. Rainoldes. Where a figurative speech is used in r Luke. 22. ver. 19 & 20. scripture: you will none of it. Here, where your Canon useth none, you fancy it. For it followeth strait touching that bread, and that cup: 5 Super qe●●●●opitio ac se●eno vultu respicere dignesse: & accepta habere, sicuti accepta habere dignatus es mu●era pueri tui justi Abel. upon the which things vouchsafe o Lord to look down with a merciful & cheerful countenance, and to accept them as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the offerings of thy righteous servant Abel. So that, if Christ himself were meant really by the bread, and the cup, in a figurative speech: then the Priest desireth God to look on Christ with a merciful and cheerful countenance, and to accept of him at the Priest's request, as he did accept s Heb. 11.4. the gifts, which Abel offered. There hath been heretofore a saying amongst you, (which I hope you like not,) that t Sacerdos est creator creatoris sui. a Priest is the creator of his creator. But by this means the Priest is lifted higher to be the mediator of his mediator. And so will you vouch in earnest of mass-priests, that, which u In Apologer. Tertullian did jest at in the Heathens: * Homo iam Deo propitius esse debebit. man must be merciful unto God now; unless it please the Priest, Christ shall not find favour in his father's sight. Hart. The prayer of the Priest that God will look upon his offerings, and accept them, hath a very good meaning, whereof I do not doubt. But the former words, touching the host, must needs betoken Christ. For how can the name of a pure, holy, and undefiled host be given to the bread, and wine? Rainoldes. How are they called 6 Haec dona, haec munera, haec sacrificia illibata. pure, or undefiled gifts, offerings, and sacrifices in the Canon itself before consecration? Hart. They may be called pure by acceptation there, as yourself expounded. Which the Canon seemeth to imports also, in that it prayeth God 7 Vti accepta habeas, & bene●icas. to accept them and bless them. Rainoldes. Even so they may be called here a pure, holy, and undefiled sacrifice. For the Canon also likewise prayeth God to accept them, in express terms; and, in effect, 8 jube haec por●erri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime altar tuum, v● quotquot ex hac altaris participatione sacrosanctum filii tui corpus & sanguinem sumpserimus, omni benedictione caelesti & gratia replea●●●r. to bless them. Whereof it hath a farther and plainer proof too, in that it saith they offer to God that pure sacrifice, the bread of life, and cup of salvation, 9 De tuis donis ac datis. of his gifts. For in saying that they offer it of the gifts of God, it showeth that the very bread and wine is meant. Which the people being used then to offer, (as now we offer money:) the rest there of was given after to the poor; a part was taken first for the use of the communicants, that they might be partakers of the bread of life and cup of salvation, that is, the holy sacrament of the body and blood of Christ. Hart. I know that the name of sacrifice is given to the people's offerings, and other things often. But I am persuaded that, by the pure, holy, and undefiled sacrifice, S. Gregory meant Christ: and so did offer him up to God his Father, in the Mass, as we do. Which I think the rather, because they were mass-priests (as our Apology showeth,) who lived in the function of Priesthood before him. For the holy x Cap. 14. Council of Nice knew none but such offerers, or sacrificing, that is, Massingpriests. S. y Epist. 5. Cyprian acknowledgeth the Priests of his time, to have offered, or sacrificed, yea even in prisons. He was a masspriest, that S. z De civit. Dei l. 22. c. 8. Austin sent to do sacrifice in a house infested with evil spirits. They were mass-priests of whom a In vit. Constantin. l. 4 c. 45. Eusebius writeth, that they pacified the divine majesty with unbloody sacrifices and mystical consecrations. The dignity of Priesthood set forth in the work of the same title by S. b Chrysost. de sacerdotio. Chrysostom, is specially commended there for the power of doing the unbloody sacrifice upon the altar. To be short, he, and all the other Fathers both Greek and Latin were mass-priests, none being ever made but for that purpose principally: S. c in 1. Tim. 4. Ambrose testifying that to take the order of Priesthood, which he calleth with the Apostle, Imposition of hands, is to receive authority to offer sacrifice to God in our lords steed. Rainoldes. These testimonies, M. Hart, of Greek, and Latin Fathers, with the rest quoted by your Apologie-writer either at d In his treatise of the sacrifice of the mass, (cap. 14.) out of his lectures read at Douai. Douai, or at e In his Apology: and the Annotations on the Rhemish Testament, Heb. 10.11. Rheims: do some of them mention offering, and not sacrificing; some speak of sacrificing, but not the sacrificing of Christ. Between the which points what difference there is: for the one, f Alan. d● eucharist. sacrif. cap. 16. himself is a sufficient witness, in that he declareth that sundry things are offered which are not sacrificed; for the other, they, who show that the faithful did offer sundry sacrifices, as namely, of g Cyprian. de opere & eleem. alms, of h August. contr. aduersa●. leg. l. 1. c. 18. & 20. praise, of i De civitat. Dei lib. 10. cap. 6. & l. 22. c. ●● themselves, even at the celebration of the Lords supper. But admit they meant by offering, and sacrificing, the sacrificing of Christ, as some of them did: yet neither was their sacrificing, that, which your Massing is; nor they who sacrificed, mass-priests. For you will have k Concil. Trid. Sess. 22. in praefat. & Can. 1. the sacrifice offered in the Mass to be a 1 Verum & singular sacrificium. very, sovereign, 2 Verum & pro prium sac●ificium. true, and proper sacrifice: whereby you mean l Alan. de Euchar. sacrif. c. 10.11. & 12. that Christ is killed there indeed, and sacrificed to God. But the Fathers named their offering, a sacrifice, not properly, but by a figure: meaning the death of Christ (our only very, sovereign, true, and proper sacrifice,) to be represented there, in a mystery, not executed in deed. For as in the Scripture sacraments are noted by the names of things whereof they are sacraments, that men may lift their eyes from the outward signs to the things signified: so because we are willed m 1. Cor. 11. ver. 2●. & 25. to celebrate the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ in his remembrance, and n ver. 26. to show his death; that showing of his death, and remembering of his sacrifice, is called by the Fathers his sacrifice, and death. So doth o Epist. 63. ad Caecilium. Cyprian treat of the offering of Christ. For teaching that 1 Passionis eius mentionem in sacrificijs omnibus facimus. we mention his death in all sacrifices, he giveth this as a reason of it, 2 Passio est enim Domini sacrificium quod offerimus. for the death of Christ is the sacrifice which we offer. So doth Chrysostom open his meaning of the sacrifice. For he affirmeth it to be p Homil. 83. in Matthaeum. a sign of Christ's death: and having said that q Homil. 17. in epist. ad Hebr. we offer the very sacrifice that Christ did, he correcteth his speech thus, 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. or rather we work a remembrance of that sacrifice. So the same r In epist. ad Heb. cap. 10. Ambrose who speaketh of sacrificing to God in Christ's steed, doth expound it too, 4 Magis autem recordationem sacrificij operamur. even with Chrysostom's words. So s Epist. 23. ad Bonifacium. Austin saith that Christ, although he were sacrificed but once in himself, 5 Omni die populis immolatur in sacramento. is sacrificed every day to Christian folk in a sacrament or mystery: neither is he falsely said to be sacrificed. For sacraments have 6 Quandam similitudinem. a certain resemblance of those things whereof they are sacraments; and for that resemblance they take the names commonly of the things themselves: as the sacrament of the body of Christ is Christ's body 7 Secundum quendam modum. after a certain sort, and the sacrament of the blood of Christ is Christ's blood. Finally, Eusebius (who may serve also to declare the judgement of the Council of Nice, whereof he was a part) doth by the very name of unbloody sacrifices witness his agreement therein with the rest. For he calleth our remembrances and representations of the death of Christ in celebrating the sacrament of his body and blood, though sacrifices, for the likeness; yet unbloody, for the difference: to show that Christ is not sacrificed in them truly, and properly, (for then must his blood be shed, as it was, when he suffered death,) but only by the way of a sacrament, & mystery, wherein the true sacrifice is set forth before us, and remembered by us. And this he maketh plainer t Demonstrat. evang. lib. 1. other where by saying, that Christ having offered himself for a sovereign sacrifice unto his ●ather, ordained that we should 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 offer a remembrance thereof unto God in steed of a sacrifice. Which remembrance we celebrate 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. by the signs of his body and blood, upon his table: and, pleasing God well, we offer unbloody sacrifices, and reasonable, and acceptable to him. Hart. Nay, Eusebius calleth our sacrifices, unbloody, in respect of the manner, and not of the thing. For they are true sacrifices of Christ, and therefore bloody: but Christ who was offered upon the cross bloodily, is offered in the Mass unbloodily. Rainoldes. That is your u Concil. Trid●t. Sess. 22. cap. 2. Trent-doctrine: but it will not cleave with the words of Eusebius. For he calleth them 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. De vit. Constantin. lib. 4. cap. 45. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Demonstrat. evang. lib. 1. unbloody sacrifices: not bloody sacrifices offered unbloodily, but unbloody sacrifices. And adding that we celebrate the remembrance therein of the sacrifice of Christ by the signs of his body, and blood: he showeth that they are not in deed bloody sacrifices, but mysteries of the bloody. Hart. Nay, the blood of Christ, the very sacrifical blood (as x In the Rhemish Annot. Heb. 9.20. we term it) which Christ did shed upon the cross, is in the blessed chalice of the altar at the sacrifice of the Mass. For y De sacerdotio lib. 3. Chrysostom (in that notable work of the Priesthood) saith that Christ is seen there by all the faithful, and mentioneth his blood too. Rainoldes. Yea, and (that is more) he saith that Christ is held there in all their hands, and all are * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, made red like crimson or scarlet. made red with that precious blood. The Father's delight much in such effectual speeches: which need wiser readers, than many be who light on them. But if yourself know that the whole people which cometh to your Mass, is not made red with the sacrifical blood: you may learn thereby that Chrysostom, speaking of blood in the sacrifice, doth consider of it as bloody in a mystery, but in deed unbloody. Hart. Nay: it is called unbloody by the Fathers, as D. z De Euchar●t. ●acis●. c●p. 1●. Allen noteth, not because the blood in deed is not in it, but to distinguish it from the same sacrifice of Christ upon the cross, which was made and offered 2 Non sine fu●o ●ruore. not without blood shed. Rainoldes. The blood is not shed then in this sacrifice. And therefore it is neither propitiatory; for a Heb. 9.22. sins are not remitted without shedding of blood: nor the true and sovereign sacrifice of Christ; for 3 Singulari & ●olo vero sac●ificio pro nobis Christi sanguis eff●sus est. August. contr. adversar leg. l. 1. c. 18. that is the only true, and sovereign sacrifice, wherein his blood was shed for us. Hart. Yes: the blood is shed in the sacrifice of the Mass, but it is shed unbloodily. Rainoldes. Blood, unbloodily shed? You speak monsters, M. Hart, unless you mean by [unbloodily] not truly, and in deed, but sacramentally. For than you say well, that his blood is shed, when we show his death, and remember the shedding of it. But as S. b Cont. Faust. Manich. l. 20. cap. 21. Austin writeth, that the flesh and blood of the sacrifice of Christ was promised by sacrifices of resemblance before he came, was performed 4 Per ipsam verit●tem reddebatur. in truth and in deed when he suffered, is celebrated 5 Pe● sacramentum memo●iae celebratur. by a sacrament of remembrance since he ascended: so, when the blood of Christ is shed in this sort by the sacrament of remembrance, it is not shed in deed, for that was done at his death only. And this is the most that you can make of the Fathers, although it be granted that they called their celebrating of the lords supper an unbloody sacrifice in respect of the bloody sacrifice of Christ which he offered on the cross. Much less make they for you, if they called it not so in respect of his sacrifice, but of the sacrifices of the jews. Which it is the more likely that they did, because they called their c Cyril. lib. de t●cta fid. ad Reginas. Oecumen. in epist. ad Hebr. c. 13. prayers and their very d Concil. Ephesin. epist. ad Nestor. Liturg. Ba●il. & Chrysost. worship of God unbloody too: no doubt to distinguish it from the jewish worship, which offered bloody sacrifices. For as S. e Rom. 1●. 1. Paul, treating of our serving of God, calleth it 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. reasonable, because we do sacrifice ourselves spiritually; not bruit beasts and senseless things with carnal ceremonies, as the jews did▪ so f Liturg. Basil. & Chrysost. the Fathers called it 7 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. reasonable, and unbloody, to the same effect. And g Demonstrat. evang lib. 1. Eusebius namely saith that we offer 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. unbloody and reasonable sacrifices to God as long as we live, meaning all h 1. Pet. 2.3. spiritual sacrifices thereby, which every Christian offereth as a Priest to God. Yea, even in i De vit. Constantin. l. 4. c. 45. that place which D. Allen chose as making most for his Apology, the prayers, which 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the Ministers (for so Eusebius termeth them) did offer unto God, may well be understood by those sacrifices too. But if he meant only their offerings of the remembrance of Christ's death in the sacrament, as that which ensueth of mystical consecrations may seem to import: yet himself declareth by the word [unbloody] that he called them sacrifices, not properly, but by a figure; as meaning not that Christ is put to death there in deed, but in a mystery. To be short, he, and all the other Fathers, both Greek, and Latin, are so fully and plainly of one mind in this point: that the k Lib. 4. dist. 12. Master of the Sentences (in his abridgement of Divinity gathered out of them) proposing this question, 1 Si, quod. gerit sacerdos, proprien dicatursacrisicium vel immolatio. whether that which the Priest doth execute be called a sacrifice properly, resolveth that it is not. But that which is offered and consecrated by the Priest is called a sacrifice (saith he) and an offering, 2 Quia memoria est & representatio ver● sacrificij & sanctae immolationis fact●m ara crucis. because it is a remembrance and representation of the true sacrifice and the holy offering made on the altar of the cross, as he proveth by the Fathers. Wherefore sith the sacrifice offered in the Mass is 3 Verum & proprium sacrificium. a true and proper sacrifice, as you define it; and that of the Fathers is not a true sacrifice, but called so improperly: it remaineth to be concluded that the Father's neither said Mass, l Concil. Trident. S●ss. 22. can. 1. nor were mass-priests. And so, to make an end with that which you began with, the cause is just, and holy, why we call presbyteros, not Priests, but Elders. For sith the name of Priest hath relation to sacrifice, & men by the sacrifice understand your Mass, and your Mass is a monster of abomination, profaning the blood of Christ, condemned by the Scriptures, unknown to the Fathers, detestable in the sight of God and of the godly: the charge of the Lord, m Leu. 19.14. not to lay a stumbling block before the blind, might have removed * As the name of my Baal. H●s. 2.16. that name from Ministers of the gospel, yea, although they had been ordained to sacrifice, much more sith they are not, but as other Christians. The name of Elders therefore expressing that word whereby the Scripture calleth them, as it is confessed by n The vulgar Latintrans●a●tion. 1. Pet. ●. Seniore. your own authentical, translating it so: we could not but allow it. Chief sith the very necessity of opening our meaning unto others (which is the end of languages) required different words for the different things of presbyter, and sacerdos. For how will you translate that saying of S. o De ciu. Dei l. 20. c. 10. Austin, that S. john's words [ p Reu. 20.6. they shallbe Priests of God, & of Christ] are meant of all Christians; non de solis episcopis, & presbyteris, qui propriè iam vocantur in ecclesia sacerdotes; that is, as we translate, not of Bishops and Elders only, which now are called peculiarly Priests in the Church. But how would you translate it? Hart. There is a defect in our English tongue, that we can not translate it so perspicuously as it is in Latin, because we have but one word for presbyter, and sacerdos. Rainoldes. Then you should not play the dog in the manger, neither yourselves mending the defects of our tongue, nor suffering us to mend them. For if a man translate it as your q In their Annot. Reu. 20.6. Rhemists do, not of Bishops and Priests only, which are So they translate the wor● propri● deceitfully: for advantage of their error, that Ministers of the gospel are properly called Priests. Whereas S. Austin meaneth that generally, by Scripture, all Christians have that name: though peculiarly Bishop● & Priests, by the Church, in his time: both called so unproperly, and by a figure: not as the levitical Priests, and Christ, properly. properly now in the Church called Priests: how shall the English reader understand his meaning which Priests be called Priests, and whether Bishops be Priests too? Nay, to come to that which must needs enforce you to translate sacerdos otherwise, than presbyter: S. r Contr. julian. Pelag. l. 1. c. 7. & l. 2. c. 10. Austin having brought (against julian, an heretic,) the testimonies of the Fathers, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Reticius, Olympius, Hilary, Ambrose, Innocentius, Nazianzene, Basil, & Chrysostom, doth name them sacerdotes, that is (as you translate it) Priests: is it not? Hart. Yes: We have no other English for sacerdos. Rainoldes. Where S. Austin addeth then touching jerom, that neither he must be contemned because he was presbyter: what here shall presbyter be? Will you make S. Augustine's speech so unsavoury, as to tell the heretic, that he ought to reverence Irenaeus, Cyprian, Ambrose, and the rest, because they were Priests; and not contemn jerom because he was a Priest? Hart. Nay, I would translate here, presbyter, a Priest: but, for sacerdotes, I would say Bishops. For that is S. Augustine's meaning in these places where he doth name them sacerdotes. Rainoldes. So s Greg. Martin. in his Discover. chap. 6. your translator doth. But the word Bishop is our English of episcopus. And what if episcopus chance to come in too, with sacerdos, and presbyter? How will you express them? As where in De ordine celebrand. Concil. Canon's a sanct. patribus constit. & ab Isidoro in unum corpus collecti. Concil. Tom. 1. the Canons collected by Isidore touching the order of keeping Counsels, he saith that sacerdotes first must enter in, and after them presbyteri: your Antonius Contius, in append. decretor. Gratiani, de ord celebr. Conc. Lawyer noteth on it, Vide ut sacerdotes vocet episcopos veteri more, quem ignorantes plerique presbyteros sacerdotes appellari promiscuè stuliè opinantur. Wherein, if you translate sacerdotes, Bishops, and presbyteros, Priests: then your Lawyer saith (which were a wise speech) that Isidore calleth Bishops Bishops, after the old manner, which many not knowing do foolishly think that Priests are called Bishops indifferently. Hart. Such sentences cannot be well expressed in English▪ but the Latin words must be kept in them. Rainoldes. But it is behoveful for our English men to have them in English, that they may know your Latin abuses of Rome. For this is meant thereby, that the ancient writers are wont to note Bishops by the name of Priests: which many not knowing do foolishly think that the name of Priests is used indifferently for the same that Elders. A lesson for your Rhemists, who make them all one, although not of foolishness so much as of fraud: to the intent that 1 Presbyteri. Elders, that is to say, Ministers of the new testament, may be thought 2 Sacerdotes. Priests, that is to say, Ministers ordained 3 Sacrifica●e. to sacrifice, as your 4 Sacrificium Missae. mass-priests be. For colour and maintenance of the which error, the countenance of proof that you pretend out of the Fathers is the less by thus much, that x Cyprian. ep. 55. Ambros. e● 33. Concil. Afrie. in ●pist▪ ad Celestin. and the rest of the Fathers commonly. which the Emperors used in their laws too: as Antonius Contius. (L. nec honore. C. de episcopis.) noteth with these words, Obserua sacerdotem semper in his legibus poni pro episcopo. they were accustomed to give the name of Priests, not generally to Elders, but to Bishops only. Wherefore to avoid confusion of things, which the confusion of words might engender, in that we are to treat off: I will (by your leave) call presbyter an Elder, as our translations do; that I may distinguish it from the name of Priest, both as it is used by you for a masspriest, and as it is used by the Fathers for a Bishop. So to come at length back again to that which I was in hand with, of the second sort of the Bishops of Rome, The fifth Division. that, when they were grown to their fattest plight, they were but Archbishops of a Princely diocese, not universal Popes and patriarchs of the whole world: the Elders (as I said) ordained by the Apostles in every Church, through every city, chose one amongst themselves whom they called Bishop, to be the Precedent of their company, for the better handling and ordering of things in their assemblies and meetings, wherein they provided by common counsel and consent for the guiding of the flock of Christ committed to them. Which point of care and wisdom the Bishops following also, knowing that y Prou. ●1. 1●. where counsels want the people falleth, but in the ampleness of counsellors there is health, had their meetings likewise for conference together when things of greater weight required more advise: and they chose to be their Precedent therein the Bishop of the chiefest city in the province, whom they called the Metropolitan. For z Notit. provinciar. Imperij Romani. a province, as they termed it, was the same with them, that a shire is with us: and the shire-towne as you would say of the province was called a L. observare. D. de officio Proconsulis. Dio in Adriano. metropolis, that is the mother-city. In which, as the judges and justices with us do hear at certain times the causes of the whole shire: so the ruler of the province with them did minister justice, and made his abode there ordinarily. Whereupon by reason that men for their business made great concourse thither: the church was wont to furnish it (of godly policy) with the worthiest Bishop, endued with gifts above his brethren. And they reposed in him such affiance, that they did not only commit the b Concil. Antioch. can. 20. Chalced ca● 19 Presidentship of their assemblies to him: but agreed also that c Concil. Nicen. can. 4. & 6. none through all the province should be made Bishop without his consent, d Concil. Antiochen. can. 9 nor any waightyer matter be done by them without him. Now the Roman Empire was governed in such sort, that as the Queen's Majesty appointeth Lieutenants over sundry greater parts of her dominion, a Lord Deputy of Ireland, and the Lord Precedents of Wales, and of the North: so the Emperor divided his to sundry officers, 1 Comes Orientis. the Earl of the East, 2 Praefectus Augustalis▪ or Aegypti. the Lord Precedents of Egypt, 3 Praefectus Praetorio Italiae. of Italy, and so forth, whose circuits had many provinces within them, and were called 4 As dioecesis Aegyptiaca. L. omnia. C. De office praefect. Aug. So dioecesis Orientis, & the 〈◊〉, in Cod. Theod & justinian. passim. dioceses. Through occasion whereof the Bishops of those cities in which these Lieutenants of the Emperor were resiant, ( * Wolfgang. Laz. comment. reip. Rom. lib. 2. cap. 2. the state ecclesiastical following the civil,) did grow in power too. Nether were they only named Archbishops and patriarchs of the diocese, that is, the chiefest Bishops and Fathers of that circuit which the Lieutenant ruled: but also they obtained that the Metropolitans of the provinces in their diocese should be likewise subject and obedient to them, as Bishops were to Metropolitans. So the Archbishop and Patriarch of Antioch had e Concil. Constantinop. 1. can 2. prerogatives given him through the diocese of the East, f Concil. Antioch. in exord. wherein were seven provinces. So g Concil. Chalced. action. 4. nothing could be done in the diocese of Egypt, ( h Theodos. & Valentin. epist. ad Dioscor. in Concil. Chalced. Action. 1. which under the Archbishop had ten Metropolitans) without the consent of the Archbishop and Patriarch of Alexandria. So i Concil. Chalced. Act. 16. it was granted to the Archbishop and Patriarch of Constantinople, that the metropolitans of the dioceses of Pontus, Asia, and Thracia, ( k As appears by Theodoret▪ Histor. eccles. l. 5. c. 2●. Though the book entitled Notitia provinciarum imperij Romani numbereth but six & twenty, ten in Pontus, ten in Asia, and six in Thracia. within the which there were eight and twenty provinces) should be ordained by him. Finally, so was it l Concil. Chalced. can. 9 & 17. decreed that if a Bishop had any matter of controversy with the Metropolitan of his own province, 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as the Council calleth him. But thereby is meant the Patriarch, as appeareth by justinian's constitution, Novel. 123. cap. 22. the Patriarch of the diocese should be judge thereof: as also if any man did receive injury of his own Bishop, or Metropolitan. Thus were the Roman Popes (as they are called now) first Bishops over Elders within their own city; next, Metropolitans over Bishops within their own province; then Archbishops, and patriarchs over Metropolitans within their own diocese. And this is the Princely diocese, which I meant, when I said that the Pope in the time of Pelagius was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese; but he was yet but an Archbishop: he was not universal Pope and Patriarch of the whole world. For although the Patriarch of Constantinople, being puffed up because in his city not the emperors Lieutenants were resiant, as in the rest, but the Emperor himself, aspired to be therefore Sovereign of the rest, and as the Emperor counted himself m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. D. ad legē●hodiam deiactu. Lord of the world, so would he be called n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Gregor. Regist▪ lib. 4. epist. 39 Patriarch of the world: yet the Roman patriarchs o In epist. ad episcopos qui convenerant Constantinopoli. Dist. 9● c. Nullus. Pelagius, and p Registr. lib. 4 ep. 32. & 34. & 36. & 38. lib. 7. indict. ●▪ epist. 30. Distinct. 99 c. Ecce. Gregory, did withstand his pride, 2 Archiepiscopi & Patriarcha senioris Rom●, Constantinopol●os, Alexandria, Theopolcos (that is▪ of Antioch,) & jerosolymorum. Novel. 123. cap. 3. and neither would themselves take so much upon them, nor agree that any Patriarch should do it. Wherefore when Pelagius ordained that if any Metropolitan sent not to the see of Rome to show his faith, and receive the pall, he should be deprived: Pelagius must be thought to have made that ordinance for all Metropolitans within his own diocese, not throughout the world. The testimony of q Registr. lib. 4. ep. 34. Gregory which yourself alleged touching the Bishop of Salonae is a proof thereof. For, that 3 Episcopi m●i. my Bishops (saith he) should despise me, I impute it to my sins: and, if the causes of Bishops committed to me be dealt with thus, alas what shall I do? Hart. Nay, although he say, Bishops committed to me, and, my Bishops: yet is that no proof that only certain Bishops were of his diocese. 4 Episcoporum mihi commissorum. For he might signify all Bishops by those words, as being all his subjects. Rainoldes. The patriarchs of Antioch, and Alexandria will deny that; or rather Gregory him ●elfe. For r Registr. lib. 4. epist. 36. himself exhorting them to withstand the pride of the Patriarch of Constantinople, who would be universal Patriarch: stand ye strong (saith he) and keep all 5 Episcopos curae vestrae sub●ectos. the Bishop's subject to your charge from defiling themselves with consent to this pride. Where by it is manifest that only certain Bishops were subject to his charge: whom he termed his Bishops, and, Bishops committed to him. And this appeareth further by that which s johan. Diac●●. vit. Gregor. lib. 3. c. 1●. Diaconus writeth in his life: that, when there were bishoprics void in his diocese, 6 Vacantes episcopos in suae dioeces●os episcopatus inuitab●t. he desired Bishops of an other diocese (who were destitute) to take them; as the Bishop of 7 A city of Asia, in the di●cese of the Patriarch of Constantinople. Smyrna to take a Bishopric in Sicilia. Howbeit, if Gregory and Pelagius both had meant generally of all Metropolitans through the whole world, that they should be allowed by the Pope's consent: yet neither wou●d that prove the Popes of the second sort to have avouched that sovereignty of power over Bishops which your last sort of Popes doth, and toucheth their supremacy most. For t Leo epist. 82. & 87. c. Metropolitano. c. Vota civium. dist 63. Gregor. Regist. lib. 1. epist. 56. & 58. & 78. lib. 2. ind. 11. epist. 22. & 29. & 30. & caet. passim. they of the second taught that all Bishops ought to be chosen by the people and clergy: themselves requiring only the confirming of Metropolitans by their consent, if that be granted. Where u Concil. Lateran. sub. Leon. decim. Sess. 11. abrogat▪ pragmaticae sanctionis, & Concilij Basiliensis. these of the last do claim to themselves the right not of confirming alone, but of choosing too, both Metropolitans and Bishops: and bind them by x Forma juramenti praestandi ab episcopo e●●ecto. In Pontiti●icali Rom. part. 1. oath (for more assurance of their State) * Reseruationes, provisiones, mandata Apostolica totis viribus obseruabo, & faciam ab alijs obserua●i. to observe and cause to be observed by others, the Papal reservations, provisions, and mandates, by which they work this tyranny. Hart. It is more requisite that the Popes in our time should reserve bishoprics to their own bestowing, that they may provide good Pastors for the Church, than it was of old. And therefore less marvel if they choose themselves such as they know fit, and will have the confirming of such as other choose: though their predecessors (when the days were better) did neither choose any, nor confirm all. But the Pope's supremacy standeth not so much in making Church-officers, as in judging Church-causes. And therein the second sort of Popes avouched as much as the last. For y Epist. 93. inter epist. Augustin. Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Council of Milevis, who had written to him about the error of the Pelagians, doth praise them for referring the matter unto him: and I think (saith he) that 1 Quotiesfid o● ratio ventilatur. as oft as a matter of faith is called in question, all our brethren and felowbishops ought not but to refer it unto Peter, that is, the author of their name and honour, as now your charity hath done. Rainoldes. Th●se words of Innocentius may prove (M. Hart) that he claimed a pre-eminence of knowledge for your Peter, not a sovereignty of power: a pre-eminence of knowledge, 2 Super anx●●s rebus quae sit tenenda sententia. to resolve the Church-questions; not a sovereignty of power, to decide the Church-causes. For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith, that is, by the scriptures: and the right opening of the scriptures lieth not in power, but in knowledge. Which you may learn by z c. Decretale ●. distinct. 20. Gratian in the Canon law, saying, that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures, because they pass them in knowledge: the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes, because they pass them in power. Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist upon the truth. For though the Church-causes, as Gratian speaketh of them, do concern persons, the innocent to be acquitted, or offenders to be condemned: yet questions of faith (which you call Church-questions) are Church-causes too in a general sense. As a c. Maiore●. de baptismo. one of the third sort of Popes saith, that greater causes of the Church, chief such as touch the articles of faith, are to be referred to the See of Peter. And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first. For, in b Epist. 91. inter epist. Augustin. his letters to the Council of Carthage written to like effect on the same occasion, he saith, that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man, but of God, that whatsoever was done in provinces far of, they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome. Rainoldes. It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church: but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacy. The causes touching persons, which Zosimus, Boniface, and Celestine did deal for, when they would have it lawful for Bishops & Elders to appeal to Rome, are those which Popes must live by. And the same Counsels of Carthage and Milevis, whom Innocentius wrote too, did know, and show this difference, when they desired the Pope's consent in that of faith, but c Concil. Carthag. Graec. can. ●8. Council Milevit. can. 22. forbade the causes of Bishops and Elders to come unto him by appeals. Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes, and the Church-questions, is not a shift of sophistry to cast a mist upon the truth, but a point of truth to clear the mist of your sophistry. For your d Torrensis confess. August. lib. 1. cap. 9 tit. ● jesuit citeth those texts of Innocentius to prove the Pope's supremacy. Whereas he claimeth judgement, to resolve the doubts; or (that is less,) authority, to approve the doctrine; not a sovereign power to hear and determine the causes of the Church. Hart. Nay, his words are general to the Council of Carthage, that whatsoever was done in provinces far off, it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded. Rainoldes. But if you do rack that word [whatsoever] so far beyond his drift: you make him more greedy than the last sort of Popes, who claim e Maiores ecclesiae causas. c. Maiores. de baptismo. the greater causes of the Church only. Wherefore, as when S. f 1. Cor. 6.12. Paul saith, all things are lawful for me, he meaneth not all things absolutely, and simply, but all indifferent things, according to the point which he treateth of: so must you apply the words of Innocentius not to whatsoever touching Church-causes, but to matters of faith called into question; which, the Pope's being learned then and Catholic, g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as S. Cyril saith in his epistle to C●lestin. Epist. ●8. the Christian Churches used to refer to them, that the truth approved by their consent and judgement might for their authority find the greater credit & fréer passage against heretics. Hart. What say you then to Leo the great, or rather to S. Gregory: who had the Church-causes, even such as touched persons, referred to their See, and willed them to be so, as their epistles show. Rainoldes. In deed Leo, and Gregory are somewhat large that way. Though Leo, as * Wolfgang. Laz. commen●ar. reip. Roman. l. 2. c. 2. the diocese of the Roman Patriarch was lesser in his time, then afterward in Gregory's: so had fewer of them. Gregory had more: yet he had not all. Hart. Not all: but all the greater. And that is as much as the last sort of Pope's claim. Rainoldes. But they claim all the greater, through the whole world, which Gregory neither had nor claimed. Hart. No? Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that he dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italy, Spain, France, Africa, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicilia, Dalmatia, and many countries more? Rainoldes. Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes, nor through the whole world. And this very show of the names of countries, by which h D. Saunders, de visib. Monar. eccles. lib. 7. your Irish champion doth think the Pope's supremacy to be clearly proved, is a demonstration in truth to disprove it. For, rehearsing only those which you have named, with England, Ireland, Corcyra, and Graecia, and saying that Gregory did practise the supremacy over their Bishops, and Churches, though neither proving so much, but admit he proved it: yet, in bringing only the names and proofs of these, he showeth that Gregory did not practise it over the Bishops and Churches of Thracia, Mysia, Scythia, Galatia, Bythinia, Cappadocia, Armenia, Pamphylia, Lydia, Pisidia, Lycaonia, Phrygia, Lycia, Caria, Hellespontus, Egypt, jury, Phoenicia, Syria, Cilicia, Cyprus, Arabia, Mesopotania, Isauria, with the rest of the country's subject to the patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and jerusalem. Hart. Though S. Gregory speak not of these particularly: yet he showeth in general his supremacy over them. For whereas the Patriarch (saith i Registr. lib. 7. ind. 2. epist. 64. he) doth confess himself to be subject to the See Apostolic: if any fault be found in Bishops, I know not what Bishop is not subject to it. Behold, not only Bishops, but the patriarchs also subject to the Pope, by S. Gregory's judgement: yea by their own confession. Rainoldes. Nay, it was not a Patriarch but 1 P●imas Byzacenus. a Primate, who confessed that. And a Primate is but 2 Primae sedis episcopus. Concil. Carthag. can. 17.18. & 19 Distinct. 99 c. Primae sedis. a Bishop of the first and chiefest See in a Province; that is, a Metropolitan. Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus, that is to say, the Patriarch of Constantinople: as it is expounded in k c. De Constantinopolit. dist. 22. in glossa. Byzancenus, id est, Constantinopolitanus. Primo enim Constantinopolis dicta fuit Byzantium. the gloze on Gratian. For Constantinople was called Byzantium first. Rainoldes. Gratian and his gloze were deceived both. For primas Byzacenus (or Byzancenus, if you read it so) is Primate of Byzacium ( l Notitia provinciarum imper. Rom. called Byzantium too) which was m Conc. A●ric. can. 57 & 94. & in subscriptionibus, Provincia Byzacena. a province of Africa, and therefore n Concil. Carthag. can. 17. & African. passim. had a Primate, as Counsels of that country show. Whom, and not the Patriarch of Constantinople, to have been meant by Gregory: it is now declared in your Gratian o By Antonius Contius. In whose notes on G●atian▪ primas By ●●cenus is expounded, Bizacij q●ae erat una ex provincijs Afric●e. too. The Patriarch was too lofty to confess himself subject to the Pope: he sought to make the Pope his subject. Hart. Perhaps he had sought it before, but not then. For certainly S. p Registr. lib. 7. ind. 2. epist. 63. Gregory, saying, that the Church of Constantinople is subject to the See of Rome, addeth, that Eusebius the Bishop of the same city doth confess it still. Rainoldes. There was q Nicephor. Chronolog. tripartit. Goe nebrard. chronog. lib. 3. & caet. Chron. Const. no Eusebius Bishop of that city in all Gregory's time. And they who were Bishops, r Registr. lib. 4. epist 36. & 38. first john, s Lib. 6. epist. 31. & lib. 7. ind. 2. epist. 69. than Cyriacus, did usurp the title of universal Patriarch, as Gregory himself declareth. Wherefore either Gregory wrote more than was true, to cheer up his subjects: or some hath chopped into him that which he wrote not, to advance the credit of the See of Rome. But howsoever he thought all Bishop's subject to it if any fault be found in them, perhaps as S. t Gal. 2.11. Peter was subject to S. Paul, and u 1. Thes. 5.11. Leu. 19 ●7. Christians are one to an other, to be reproved by their brethren when they do offend; but if he meant more, as perhaps he did of a good will to his See: yet he meant not that which toucheth the point of the Pope's supremacy, given you to prove, to weet, that Bishop's causes through the whole world must be referred to him. And hereof himself is a sufficient witness, in that x Grego. Regist. lib. 11. ep. 54. he overruleth the case by 1 No●ella tradirio, as Grego●ie calleth 〈◊〉 meaneth Novel. 123. cap. 2●. the law of justinian the Emperor. For, if any man (saith he) accuse a Bishop for whatsoever cause: let the cause be judged by his Metropolitan. If any man gainsay the Metropolitans judgement, let it be referred to the Archbishop and Patriarch of that diocese, and let him end it according to the canons and laws. Hart. The causes of Bishops (I grant) must first be heard of their Metropolitans; and next, of their patriarchs. Yet if the patriarchs judgement be misliked too: then may the party grieved appeal to the Pope, and so they come to him last. Rainoldes. Gregory meant not so, but that the last judge thereof should be the Patriarch: as did justinian also. Which they show plainly, by saying, Let him 2 P●aebeat finem. end it 3 Secundum 〈◊〉 & lege●. according to the canons and laws. For both y Concil. Chalcedon. can. 9 & 17. the canons of that Council which referred the causes of Bishops to the patriarchs, did mention them as the last judges: & z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. C. de episcopali a●dientia. the laws of Emperors which granted appeals from Metropolitans to them, 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. granted no appeal from them to any other; nay, for bad expressly all appealing from them. Hart. Yet even there S. Gregory giveth a special privilege and pre-eminence to the Pope above other patriarchs. For he addeth, that if a Bishop have no Metropolitan nor Patriarch at all: then is his cause to be heard and determined by the See Apostolic, which is the head of all Churches. Rainoldes. True: he addeth that beyond the canons of Counsels, and the laws of Emperors. But in the mean season, he yieldeth that the causes of Bishops, who were subject to any other Patriarch, must not be referred to the Popes See. Whereby it is evident that not all their causes through the whole world were claimed by S. Gregory. And herewithal by this place it may be noted too, that when he nameth the See and Church of Rome the head of all Churches, he meaneth it of excellency for sundry gifts above them, not of the supremacy for power to govern them. Which answereth the question that you made before a Chapt. 7. Division 9 upon the same title: If the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches, why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops? For the name of head is given to that Church in respect of others: as if the city of London should be called in England▪ the head of all cities. The Lord Mayor of London might chance to have a favourer, who would ask thereon: If the city of London be the head of all cities, why not the Mayor of London the head of all Mayors? But I know no Mayor so simple in England, that upon this sophism would yield himself a subject to the Lord Mayor of London. Hart. Yet yourselves grant, that b In Concilio Africano. Zosimus, Boniface, & Caelestinus, did claim the right of appeals to be made to them in the causes of Bishops through the whole world. Who being Popes before Gregory, almost two hundred years: it followeth that they of the second sort did avouch as much for the Pope's supremacy in judging Church-causes, as their successors of the last do, which you denied. Rainoldes. And I deny it still: neither doth that prove it. For the last sort claimeth c Cap. Maiores. de baptismo. all the greater causes of the church. Wherein d c. Etsi dominici: De poenit. & remission. in extrauag. common. Bulla, quae publicatur per Papam in die Coenae Domini: inscript. Literae processus. In eclog. Bullar. & motu proprior. Greg. decimitert. they comprehend not only the causes of Bishops and the Clergy, but of all estates, as many as do fall within the * Casus reseruati Apostolicae se● di. De quibus Concil. Trident. Sess. 14. cap. 7. reserved cases, as they call them. And because these cases by the ancient e Concil. Nicaen. can. 5. Antioc●en. can. 2. Constantinop. prim. can. 2. Counsels should be all determined within their own● Provinces, not referred to Rome: therefore f c. Significasti, De election. no Council may prescribe a law (they say) to bind them. But the other, whom you named of the second sort, did neither take upon them such power over Counsels, nor claim appeals in causes of any, but of Bishops, or Clergy at the most. As for the cases which Popes reserve now from ordinary judges to their own Exchequer: the second sort of Popes was so far from doing it, that they were in their graves many hundred years before the sent thereof was felt. Wherefore you overreached yourself, M. Hart, when you said that g Chapt. 7. Divisi. 7. the Bishop of Rome hath always used the practice of the supremacy. For it is apparent by this which I have showed, that not one of them for the space of six hundred years after Christ did ever either use it, or claim it as his right. Hart. Yes: they heard the causes of Clergymen appealing to them, and held that they might do so. Wherefore they claimed the supremacy, and used it too. Rainoldes. Which reason is as good, as if a Kentish Gentleman should say that all the County of Kent is his own, because he hath a Lordship in the Weald of Kent. Hart. What? do you account it so small a matter, that Clergymen, yea Bishops should appeal to them out of all provinces through the whole world? Rainoldes. A goodly Lordship and large. But nothing so large as the Weald of Kent, much less as all Kent. There are many Lordships more within the County, which the ancient Popes neither had, nor claimed. One Lordship of being subject to no man, no not to the Emperor. An other, of having power over Princes to excommunicate and depose them. An other, of binding Bishops, metropolitans, and patriarchs with an oath to be their faithful subjects. An other, of giving Church-livings and offices unto whom they list. An other, of breaking the bands of all Counsels with dispensations and decrees. An other, of reserving cases to their See. Whereof (to pass the rest, which you may find recorded in their 1 Decretales epistolae. Rolls, and 2 Regulae cancellariae Apostolicae. Chancery) sith they neither challenged nor possessed any: they bore not themselves as Lords of the whole County; I mean, they neither claimed nor used the supremacy. Hart. But will you grant that so much then of the suprepremacie as they claimed or used, belongeth to their See, and is theirs of right. Rainoldes. No. For the exception h In the third Division of this Chapter. which I made against them was of two branches: one, that they avouch not the supremacy of the Pope; the other, that they avouch more, through affection, then is true and right. And this is very manifest not only by the dealings of them whom I named: but also by the writings of them whom you alleged. Hart. Of the third sort of Popes if you mean: they may be refused perhaps with greater show of reason. But they, whom I alleged, of the second sort, were holy men, and Saints. Rainoldes, The Apostles of Christ (I hope) were saints too. Yet hath the spirit of God set down for our instruction that i Mat. 20.20. Luke. 9.46. & 22.24. they did not only desire superiority, but also strive about it. Innocentius, Leo, Gelasius, Vigilius, Pelagius, and Gregory, the men whom you alleged, were not greater than the Apostles. And the praise which they give to their See of Rome, doth so exceed the truth: that it beareth evident marks of their affection. You might have perceived it in that which you cited out of k Ep●st. 91. inte● epist. Aug. Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God: by which (he saith) they decreed, that, whatsoever was done in provinces far off, it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome. For what were the Fathers who decreed that? where is the sentence of God, by which they did it? Though this is the least of many friendly speeches, which not Innocentius only, but the rest too (as l Chapt. 1. Diuis. 2. I have showed in Leo,) do lend their Church & Peter. Yea, some flat repugnant to the holy scripture: and that, confessed by yourselves. For they say that m Vigilius in decretis suis▪ cap. vlt. all Churches took their beginning from the Roman. The holy n isaiah. 2.3. Act. 1.4. & 2.5. & 8. 4· scripture maketh * Which therefore is called the mother of all Churches by the Fathers of the Council (the second general Council) of Constantinople. Theodoret. l. 5. c. 9 Although the Popes now & their Trent-councell do bely the Church of Rome with that title. Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. De baptism. can 3. Ses. 14. the Sacrament. extreme. unction. cap. 3. Sess. 22. cap. 8. Sess. 25. Decret. de delectu ciborum. jerusalem the spring of them. They say that o Innocent. ep. 93. inter Epist. Aug. all Bishops had their honour and name from Peter. The holy p Act. 14.23. & 20.28. Tit. 1. ver. 5. & 7. scripture teacheth, that many had it from other Apostles, not from him. They say q Gelasius in decret. cum 70. episcopis. that the Church of Rome hath neither spot, norwrinckle, nor any such thing. The holy r Eph 9 ●7 scripture showeth that the Church is san●ctified, & framed to be hereafter not having spot, or wrinkle or any such thing, when Christ shall make it glorious & triumphant in heaven: not, but that it hath such, while it is militant on the earth. s Hieron. in jerem. cap. 31, August. Retract. l. 2. c. 18. Which is so apparent, that not the Father's only, but t Summ. Theolog. part. 3. q. 8. art. 3. Thomas of Aquine also, and D u Princip. doct. l. 1. c. 2. & 8. Stapleton confess it. Wherefore howsoever holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleged: it cannot be denied but they had affections, and yielded thereunto as men. Howbeit the third sort (I grant) are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault. For it is a small thing with them to use speeches repugnant to the Scripture: but they must abuse, yea, coin scripture too, for maintenance of their Papal port. They can teach the Church that x c. Significasti. de electione. the Pope may offer to confirm Archbishops 1 Tali conditione, si sacramentum exhiberes. upon this condition, if they will be sworn to him: because when Christ committed his sheep unto Peter, he 2 Conditionem posuit. did condition with him, saying, a joh. 21.16. if thou love me, feed my sheep. They can teach the Church that y c. unam sanctam extra. de maiorit. & obed. the Pope hath power over all powers, & Princes of the earth, & none hath power over him, because b 1, Cor. 2.15. the spiritual man judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. They can teach the Church that z In council. Lateran. sub Leon. decim. Sess. 11. Christ ordained Peter and Peter's successors to be his vicar's, who, (by c Ex libri Regum testimonio. the testimony of the book of kings) must needs be so obeyed, that he who obeyeth them not, must die the death: and, as it is read d Where is that read? otherwhere, He that forsaketh the Bishop of Rome's chair cannot be in the Church. Hart. That which is cited out of the book of kings, is in the book of Deuteronomie. The text is true scripture, though the place mistaken. And, though it belong not to the Pope immediately. Rainoldes. Nay, never go about to salve it, M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we have e Chap. 6. Diuis. 1. already handled. Pope Leo the tenth and his Council of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Pope's Kings, when they alleged the book of kings for Deuteronomie, & Deuteronomie for the Papacy. But what soever you think of the third, or second, or any sort of Popes: it is against all law both of God, and man, that they should be witnesses in their own matter. And therefore if your proof of their supremacy be no better: the jury will cast you, out of all controversy. For f joh. 5.31. if I should bear witness of myself (saith Christ) my witness were not true. g L. nullus D. de testibus. L. omnibus. C. eo. 4.9.2. & 3. c. Si testes. None are fit witnesses in their own causes: h Cicer. pro Roscio. no not though they were as worthy men as Scipio was amongst the Romans. It were a bad plea in Westminster Hall: john a Noke must have this land; for john a Noke saith so. The i 9 q. 3. c. pater. in glossa. C●em. unica de jure iurando. In glossa johannis Andreae. canonists themselves, when Popes allege Popes for proof of certain points touching their supremacy, do note, that 1 Familiaris est haec probatio quum Papa alium Papam adducit in testem. it is a familiar kind of proof: meaning such belike, as that in the common proverb, Ask my fellow if I be a thief. Which they might note the better, because it is evident that 2 Summi Pontifices suas fimbrias nimis extendentes. Spoken by allusion to the Scribes and Pharises, who enlarged the Phylacteries and frindges of their garments. Mat. 13.5. the Popes have stretched out their own frindges in laying claim to large power, as k Aen. Silu. de gestis Basilien●sis council. l. 1. jacobus Almain de author. ecclesiae cap. 8. The sixth Division. great Divines among you, have written in these very terms. Hart. The power, which they claimed, hath seemed over large to envious and malicious men. But it was no more than their right and due. Which because you think not sufficiently proved by the Popes themselves: I will prove it farther by the words and testimonies of other ancient Fathers. Rainoldes. Of whom? Hart. Of the chiefest of them, both Greek and Latin. For it was the prerogative of the Pope's office that made S. bernard seek to Innocentius the third, Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Africa to Innocentius the first, and to Caelestinus, Epist. 90.92.95. S. Chrysostom to the said Innocentius, Epist. 1. & 2. S. Basil, to the Pope in his time, Epist. 52. S. jerom, to Damasus, Epist. 57.58. tom. 2. and other likewise to others: that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiastical regiment. Rainoldes. If you bring such witnesses to prove the Pope's supremacy: I must request the jury to have an eye to the issue. For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their advise, and counsel; some by their authority, and credit; some by both. By their advise, and counsel▪ as jerom, of Damasus. By their authority & credit: as Chrysostom, of Innocentius. By both: as basil, Austin, and the Bishops of Africa, of the Popes in their time. Bernard somewhat more. But he lived yesterday, in comparison of the rest: and therefore not to be numbered amongst the ancient Fathers. Though neither he by this point proveth the Papacy. And what his judgement was thereof l Chap. 6. Division, 4. I have declared. Now for them, first, who asked the advise and counsel of the Pope: I will tell you a story, which (I pray) consider of. m Socrat. hist. ecclesiast. l. 5. cap. 10. Theodosius the Emperor desirous to procure the peace of the Church, consulted with Nectarius the Patriarch of Constantinople, what way might best be taken for ending controversies of religion. The Patriarch imparted the matter to Agelius a Novatian Bishop. The Bishop to Sisinius, a reader in his church. The reader gave advise and counsel to the Patriarch. Which the Patriarch liked of, and showed it to the Emperor: the Emperor embraced it, and dealt according thereunto. Hart. You would infer hereof that the ancient Fathers might ask the Pope's counsel, and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head. Rainoldes. True: as the Emperor might of the Patriarch; the Patriarch, of the Bishop; the Bishop of the reader. Hart. The case is not like. For it was the personal wisdom, virtue, learning, or faith of these men, which made them to be sought to. But that, which made the Fathers seek to the Popes, was the prerogative of their office: Rainoldes. Wherein they could not err, as you heard say at n The Rhemish Annot. on Luk. 22.31. Rheims. But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personal faith and gifts in this sort, must be put in mind that by the same reason o Sext Synod. Constantinopolit. act. 12. Sergius the Patriarch of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius, in respect not of his personal wisdom, virtue, learning or faith, but of his office too. And so shall yourself be forced to confess, that either the Pope may err in consultations, which he dealeth with by reason of his office, as Pope Honorius did: or, the Father's seeking to the Popes for counsel, did seek in respect of their personal gifts, that they were learned and godly Pastors; as p August. epist. ●om. 2. many sought to Austin then, q calvini epistolae & resposa. to Calvin lately, though neither of them were Pope. Hart. Nay: it is certain that S. jerom sought to Damasus for his office sake. For r Epist. 57 he speaketh namely of the chair of Peter: that is, the See Apostolic committed to Damasus. Rainoldes. But withal he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers, that is, the Christian faith, which Damasus kept uncorrupted. And therefore he sought to him as a godly learned, not as a Pastor only: not for his office sake alone, but for his person, succeeding as in place, so in doctrine to Peter. Though in whatsoever respect and consideration jerom sought to Damasus: his seeking to be resolved in a point of faith, doth not import sovereignty of power, s Chapt. 7. Division 8. as I have showed. Much les doth the counsel that basil asked, import it, t Epist. 52. about assuaging of their troubles. Lest of all, that Austin, and the Bishop of Africa: who, under show of ask counsel of Innocentius, u Possid. de vit. August. cap. 18. in truth gave him counsel, for fear lest the Pelagians should have seduced him to their error. Wherefore the ancient Fathers, who sought advise of Popes, prove not the Pope's supremacy. No more do they in deed who sought to further others, or relieve themselves, by the Pope's authority. For authority & power differ: that such, as are their brethren's superiors in the one, may be their inferiors or equals in the other. As x Chap. ●. Division 3. we agreed, if you remember. Hart. It may be so, I grant. But they, whom I named, sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes, as to supreme heads of all the Church in power, not as to their superiors in authority only. Rainoldes. Their own words and deeds argue the contrary. For y Socrat. hist. ecclesiast. lib. 6. cap. 14. Sozomen. l●b. 8. c. 17. Chrysostom 14. being called into judgement by his enemies, namely, by the Bishop of Alexandria & others assembled in a Council, did appeal from them to a general Council, and (as z Epist. 1. ad Innocentium, himself speaketh thereof) to just judgement. Whereby he declareth that the lawful power of judging his cause belonged to the Council, and not to the Pope. Hart. But when he was deprived and cast out of his Bishopric, notwithstanding his appealing to the general Council, he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force, as in deed they were not, and that they who did him such wrong, might be punished. Rainoldes. But in this request he dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the general Council, to which he had appealed: a member, in power; a principal member, in authority. For in praying him above the rest to write: he showed that he thought him to be of greater credit than other of his brethren. But, in appealing to them all jointly, not to him alone: he showed that the right of judging the matter belonged, not to him, but to them in common. Which is plainer yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in several, that they are forbidden by 1 ●e meaneth canons of Counsels chiefly Concil. Constantinopolit. can. 2. laws of the Fathers to take on them 2 His words in Latin are tr●smōtanos ad nostra judicia. non trahendos. But the Greeke canon hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which word being used by Chrysostom hear▪ (as I guest by the circumstances, for the Greek I have not seen) was mistaken by the translator, as if it had come from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mons, not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 terminus. the judging of such as are without the limits of their diocese. Wherefore the pre-eminence which Chrysostom gave the Pope, was of authority, not of power. The same I say of Basil, or rather a Epist. 52, himself saith it, desiring, that the Pope would use his own authority in sending men to secure them. Hart. You do us great injury, by this new distinction of authority and power. For Basil meant power, when he named authority. Rainoldes. You will not say so, if you weigh the ground and circumstances of his speech. For b Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 2. 1●.21. & 30. the Eastern Churches being pestered with the Arian heresy by means of the Emperor Valens, an Arian, who persecuted the Catholics: the Churches of the West (under Valentinian, a Catholic Emperor) did flourish with sincerity of faith and faithful Bishops. Whereupon S. c Epis●. 48. Basil conferring with Athanasius (both Bishops of the East) about their Church's state, saith, that the consent of the Western Bishops is the only way & means to help it, in his judgement. For if they would show that zeal for our Churches, which they did for one or two being taken among themselves in error: it is likely (saith he) that they should do us good, by reason that the rulers would regard and reverence 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the credit of their multitude: & the people every where would follow them without gainsaying. Now this, whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first, is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for. Whom d Epist. 2. he prayed to deal 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. himself in the matter, & use his own authority in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose, because the Western Bishops could not do it easily Epist. 52. by a common conference and decree of Council. So that he desired a Counsels aid chief, because their consent & multitude had greater credit: as in e Epist. 47. his epistle to the Western Bishops themselves he saith again. It was not power therefore, but credit, and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the authority of the Pope. Which you must needs grant, unless you will say that he thought the Council to be above the Pope in power, against your f Concil. Trid. Sess. 14, cap. 7. Trent-doctrine of the Pope's supreme power over the whole Church. As for S. Austin and the Bishops of Africa: it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction, as you term it. For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to: g Epist. 90●92. et 96. apud Aug. they desired the one to assist them with 6 Statutis nostrae mediocritatis Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur autoritas▪ &. Autoritati sanctitatis tu●● facilius eos ces●uros speramus. &. damnet ea Pelagius paterna exhortatione & autoritate ●anctitatis tuae. his authority; h Epist. Conc. Af●ican. de Caelestin. in Concil. Afric. cep. 105. the other, not to challenge 7 Either by hearing their causes at Rome, or by sending Legates a latere unto them. power in their Church causes. A great fault of yours: to say, that S. Austin and the Bishops of Africa sought to Caelestinus for the prerogative of his office, when they dealt against * Quasi ecclesiae Romanae privilegia, avouched by Faustinus the Legate of the Pope reproved by S. Austin and the Bishop of Africa, in epist. conc. African▪ ad Caelestin. his usurped prerogative. Greater, if you did it wittingly and willingly. Whereof 1 The rhemish An●●otat. in Luk. 22.31. your Annotations do give strong suspicion, in that having quoted all the other places, they l●●ue this unquoted, lest the reader should find the fraud. Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations. They who set them down, knew their own meaning: and will (I warrant you) maintain it. But what a sovereignty the Fathers yielded to the Pope it may appear by this, (as D. k Princ. doctr. lib. 7. cap. 10. Stapleton showeth,) that they thought no Council to be of any force unless he confirmed it. For l Epist. Synod. Nicen. ad Syluestr. Tom. 11 conciliot. the Fathers assembled in the Council of Nice, (the first general Council) sent their epistle to Pope Silvester, beseeching him to ratify and confirm with his consent whatsoever they had ordained. Rainoldes. The Council of Nice had no such fancy of the Pope. Their epistle is forged: and he, who forged it, was not his craftes-master. For one of the 1 Hosius episcopus Cordubae, & Macarius episcopus ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae. Fathers pretended to have written it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople. Whereas m Cassiodor. in chronico. Sigon. de occident. imper. lib. 4. Constantinople had not that name yet in certain years after the 2 Paulino & juliano consulibus. date of this epistle, but was called Byzantium: 3 Episcopos totius vaestrae Apostolicae urbis. neither was Macarius Bishop of Byzantium at that time, but Alexander. Moreover, they are made to request the Pope that n Socrat. hist. eccle. lib. 1. ca 25. & l. 2. c. 4. Nicephor. chronolog. tripartit. Genebr. chron. lib. 3. he will assemble the Bishops of his whole city. Which is a drunken, speech, sith the Bishops of his whole city were but one; & that one was himself. Unless they used the word [city] as the Pope (answering them in like sort) that he 4 Cum episcopis totius urbis Italiae. Praemonit. ad lectorem pro epist. Synodi Nisenae & Syluestri. conferred with the Bishops of the whole city of Italy. And so it is more sober, but no more seemly for the Council of Nice. Finally, neither Eusebius, (who was at the Council) nor Rufinus, nor Socrates, nor Theodoret, nor Sozomen, nor other ancient writers do mention any such thing. Only 1 Hosius episcopus Cordubae, & Macarius episcopus ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae. Peter Crabbe (the setter forth of it) had it out of a library of Friars at Coolein. But whence had the Friars it? Hart. The Fathers of the Council of Constantinople (the second general Council) wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees. And that is witnessed by o Hist. ecclesiast. lib. 4. cap. 9 Theodoret. Rainoldes. It is, and so witnessed, that it overthroweth the Pope's sovereignty, which D. Stapleton would prove by it. For they wrote jointly to Damasus, Ambrose, Britto, Valerian, Ascholius, Anemie, basil, and the rest of the Western Bishops assembled in a Council at Rome. Nor only to them, but to the Emperor Theodosius. Yea, to Theodosius in several, and more forcibly. For p Epist. Concil. Constantinopo. lit. ad Theodosium imperat. in Graec. decret. & Libel. Sinodicar. constit. lat. they requested him to confirm and ratify their decrees and ordinances. Wherefore if the Pope have such a supremacy, whose 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consent and liking thereof they desired▪ what supremacy hath the Emperor, whom they besought to 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ratify them, and to confirm them? Hart. Nay: your own distinction of power and authority, doth serve well and fitly to this of the Emperor. For their decrees and ordinances of doctrine, were true; and of discipline, good; though he had not confirmed them. But more would accept of them as good and true, through his word & countenance. As we see that many do frame themselves to Prince's judgements. Wherefore it was the emperors authority and credit, for which they desired his confirmation of their decrees: not for any sovereignty of power that he had in matters of religion. Rainoldes. Not for any sovereignty of power that he had to make matters true, of false; or good, of evil: but to make his subjects use them as good, and true, being so in deed. Which perhaps the Fathers of the Council meant too. But your own answer may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus. For the doctrine of Christ, which they decreed, was true; & the discipline, good; though he had not consented to it. But more would accept of it as good, & true, through his agreement and allowance. As we see that many do follow the minds of Bishops. Wherefore it was the Pope's authority and credit, for which they desired his consent to their decrees: not for any sovereignty of power that he had in matters of religion. Which is plain by their craving not of him alone, but of other Bishops to like thereof also, that the Christian faith being agreed upon, and love confirmed amongst them, they might keep the Church from schisms and dissensions. Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrees of Counsels by consenting to them. But the Pope confirmed them in special sort. For S. q Epist. 29 tom. 4. oper. cyril. cyril saith of the third general Council of Ephesus, that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Council, and confirmed all things that were done therein. Rainoldes. S. cyril saith not that of Caelestinus, but of Sixtus. Howbeit, if he had: yet this would prove authority still, and not power. As r In chronico. Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresy was specially withstood by the industry of Cyril, and the authority of Caelestinus. But these very words of cyril, touching Sixtus, do overthrow your fancy conceived on the Pope's confirming of Counsels. For, the Council of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession. Notwithstanding Sixtus, who succeeded him, did confirm it afterward. In deed the truth dependeth neither of Council, nor of Pope: though, when Popes & Counsels were good & godly minded, they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth. For as joshua said to s ●os. 24. ver. 1. all the tribes of Israel, even to the Priests also assembled in a Council, t ver. 15. If it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, choose you whom you will serve, whether the Gods which your Fathers served, or the Gods of the Amorites; but I and my house will serve the Lord▪ so the right faith and religion of Christ is firm of itself, and aught to be embraced of every Christian with his household, whether it please the tribes, that is, the Church, or no. But the Church is named u 1. Tim. 3.15. the pillar and ground of truth in respect of men, because it beareth up the truth, and confirmeth it, through preaching of the word, by the ministery of x Mal. 2.7. Priests in the old testament, and y Act 20 ●8. Bishops in the new, whom therefore z Epist. 70. Basil termeth the pillars and ground of truth. Now, the more there be of these who maintain it, and the greater credit they have amongst men: the stronger and surer the truth doth seem to be, and many yield the sooner to it. For which cause a Gal. 2. v. 1. & 2 the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul, though assuredly b ver. ●. true, yet c v. 6. & 9 was confirmed by james, Peter, and john, who were counted to be pillars; yea, by the Council of the Apostles and Elders at jerusalem: and being so confirmed was e ver. 31. received more readily and gladly both at Antioch, and f Act. 16. ver. 4. in other cities; in so much that g ver. ●. the Churches were established in the faith, and increased in number daily. The men of God therefore, who in ancient time were assembled together to uphold the truth, desired the consent, some time of all Bishops, as in h Athanas. in Apolog. 2. Theodoret. hist eccles. l. 2. cap. 8. the Council of Sardica; sometime of the Pope, as in i Epist. 90. inter epist. August. the Council of Carthage: not for that they thought that else their decrees should be of no force, but because they knew that the consent of such would add the greater credit to them. And, that general Counsels, if they had desired the Pope to confirm them, which all of them did not, but if they had done so, yet must have done it in this consideration: you may see by a pillar and ground of your Council of Trent, even k Defence. fid. Trident. lib. 1. Andradius. Who not only voucheth that * Doctissimi viri s●pientissimè existimant. most learned men do most wisely think it, as Alfonsus l Alfonsu● a Castro de justa haereticorum pu●itione, l. 1. c. 6. namely: but allegeth also Cardinal Turrecremata, the chiefest patron of the Pope, for proof of the same, or rather of a farther point. For if there should happen such a case (saith m johan▪ ruriecrem. de Pont. Max. gener. que Concil. autoritate ad Basil●ēsium oratorem respon. nu. 67. & 6●. the Cardinal) that all the Fathers assembled in a general Council should make a decree touching any matter of faith with one accord, and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree: men ought (in my judgement) to obey the Council therein, and not the Pope. And why? Because the judgement of so many Fathers of a general Council seemeth to be justly and worthily preferred before the judgement of one man in a matter of faith. Whereupon he addeth that the Council than is above the Pope, 1 Non potestate jurisdictionis. not in power of jurisdiction, 2 Sed autoritate discretivi judicij, or maioritate, as Turrecremata calleth it, in Summ. de eccles. l. 3. c. 64. but in authority of judgement to discern things, and in ampleness of knowledge. Thus it is apparent by your own Doctors, that, to confirm Counsels importeth an authority the Pope had, not power: and that he was not sovereign in authority neither, no not as much as equal, but inferior to them. So far is it off from proving his supremacy. Hart. Though Counsels be above the Pope in authority, after the opinion of Cardinal Turrecremata: yet you see he setteth the Pope above them in power of jurisdiction, wherein his supremacy doth principally stand. And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their deeds too. For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria, Paul of Constantinople, Asclepas of Gaza, Marcellus of Ancyra, Lucian of Adrianople, and very many other Bishops of the East, being driven out of their Churches by the Arians, did appeal to the Pope, as n Hist. tripart. l. 4. c. 15. Socrat. l. 2. c. 15. Sozomen. l. 3. c. 8. ecclesiastical stories show. Rainoldes. The stories show it not: but o D. Stapleton▪ Princip. doctr. lib. 4. cap. 19 he, who saith they show it, showeth that he dealeth with them in this point, as in p lib. 7. c. 10. the former with S. cyril. Hath he abused you so often, and will you never cease to credit him? Hart. The stories show that they came to Rome to Pope julius, and he for the prerogative and dignity of his See restored them to their Churches, perceiving that the Arians had deprived them wrongfully. Rainoldes. The dignity and prerogative of the See of Rome, in restoring them, was but of authority, and honour, not of power. For the power of hearing and judging their cause did rest in the Council assembled then at Rome. Which julius himself, and Athanasius both do testify. Athanasius, who speaking thereof q Apologia. 2. ascribeth it plainly to the Council. julius, who being reproved by the Arians for overthwarting that which they had done in their Council, r In epist. ad episcopos Antiochiae congregatos. Apud Athan. apol. 2. answereth that the doings of a former Council may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other; that themselves had offered to have the cause debated so in just judgement, and thereto had requested a Council to be called; that Athanasius and the rest appeared at the Council, and they who should have also appeared made default; that hereupon the Council finding their iniquity, relieved the parties wrongfully oppressed; to be short, that whatsoever he dealt or wrote therein, he did it on the Counsels judgement, and consent, not on his own head. Wherefore it was not the Pope, but the Council, that heard and determined the causes of Bishops, whether at first, or on appeals. Such power of jurisdiction neither did julius claim, nor Athanasius give him. Hart. Yes: there is an other epistle of julius, s Rescript. julij Papae c●●tra orientales. Conc. Tom. 1. wherein he claimed such power, and that upon the canons of the Council of Nice. Rainoldes. I told you of t In the 3. Division of this Chapter. epistles which seemed to be written by some of the Pope's horsekeepers or cooks. This is one of them. It should be the very same, that I alleged, extant in Athanasius. But it is no liker it, then black is to white. The canons, which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers, bewray the lewdness of it. The more, because julius in the same epistle (as Athanasius hath it) citeth their authority for the Council above the Pope, who in this are cited for the Pope above the Council. Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle, as it is confessed: you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit. Hart. Yet u Hist. eccle. l. 2. cap. 17. Socrates & x lib. 3 cap. 10. Sozomen report, that julius wrote in his epistle to the Arians, that whereas they called not him unto the Council, therein they did unlawfully: because it was provided by a law of the Church, that things which were decreed and done without the Pope's consent should be void. Rainoldes. If julius had written so to the Arians: julius had written a manifest untruth. For by y Conci. Nicaen. ca●. 5. the Nicen Canons (which were the chiefest laws of the Church at that time) it was ordered, that Counsels should be kept yearly twice in every province. To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope: or that they might do nothing there but what he liked of. But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake julius, as z Princ. doctr. lib. 7. ca 10. Stapleton doth now. And whereas a julius in epi. ad episcopos An●io●h. congregat. Apud Athan. apolog. 2. he had said, know ye not that this is the manner and custom 1 Vt p●imum nobis scribatur. that ye should write to us first, that hence might be decreed the thing which is just? they thought that he had spoken of himself, belike, and had meant the Pope by the word [us,] by which he meant the Council. For he wrote that epistle in the Counsels name, as Athanasius noteth: and himself showeth it by saying strait before, 2 Oportuit scribere omnibus nobis. ye ought to have written unto all us, that so that which is just might be decreed by all. Hart. Whatsoever you conceive of the doings and writings of Athanasius and julius: yet can you not deny but Flavianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Council of Ephesus deposing him unjustly. And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too▪ For b Epist. ad Theodosiam. the Emperor Valentinian witnesseth the one; and c Epist. ad Leonem. Theodoret himself, the other. Rainoldes. Flavianus appealed from the Council of Ephesus: but to a greater and a more lawful Council, not to Pope Leo. Which appeareth by an epistle of d Epist. 13. Leo himself, complaining to the Emperor Theodosius of the fewness and oppression of the Bishops in the Council of Ephesus; and desiring that a general Council might be kept, because Flavianus had appealed. You must add therefore the Empress Placidia to the Emperor Valentinian: and with the one's words of 3 Flavianus 〈◊〉 appellavit. appealing to Leo, take that e Epist. Gallae Placidiae ad Theodosium. the other saith, to Leo 4 〈◊〉 ad omnes episcapos haiú partium. and to all the Bishops of these parts. So Leo, and the Bishops being joined together, will make the Council of Chalcedon: by the which Council f Concil. Chalc. act. 1. the cause of Flavianus and his appeal was judged. The same Council also g act. 8. did judge Theodoret's cause; & finding him guiltless restored him to his See. Wherefore sith the Council was judge of the appeal: if he appealed to Leo, and not to the Council, it was an oversight. Unless perhaps he did not appeal as to a higher judge▪ that might restore him; but as to a man of learning and authority, whose credit and judgement might help to prove him not guilty. And this doth the tenor of h Theodoret. epist. ad Leon. his request pretend. Though ask wi●hall the advise of Leo, whether he shall bear that wrongful deprivation, or seek to be restored: he seemeth to have thought of a further matter. Which yet he toucheth so, in speaking of troubling men, and craving Leos prayers: that it is evident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him. Wherefore, the most that you may well imagine of an appeal made by Theodoret to Leo for remedy of the wrong done him, is, that Leo took his bill of appeal to prefer it to the Council whereof he was Precedent. As with us in England the bills are put up to the Speaker of the Parliament, that he may inform the Parliament thereof, not as though himself had sovereign power to pass them. Hart. Then you grant that Leo was Precedent of the Council, as in deed he was, and head of the Bishops therein, as i ●elat Synod. Chalce●on. ad Leon. act. 3. themselves say. Which showeth that they counted the Pope their supreme head. Rainoldes. You will find more heads, than the Pope's shoulders will be content to bear, if you make such reasons. First, the Bishop of Corduba. For k Athan. in ep. ad solitar. vitam agent. Apolog. de ●uga ●ua: & Apolog. 2. Hosius was Precedent of the Council of Nice: nor of Nice only, but also of Sardica, and of many others. Next, the Bishop of Antioch, or whosoever he were that had the room in the Council of Constantinople. For l As it appeareth by their epistle to Damasus, in Theodo●et. Hist. eccles. lib. 5. c. 9 the Pope had it not. Thirdly, the Bishop of Alexandria. Hart. Nay, cyril, who had it in the third general Council, was Deputy therein to Pope Caelestinus, as m H●●tor. eccle. lib. 1. cap. 4. Euagrius writeth. Rainoldes. Caelestinus joined his authority to Cyrils'. But cyril was Precedent, as well as Caelestinus, in n Valentinian & Martian. ep. ad Pallad. Concil. Chalcedon. act. 3. & Episcopi variarum p●o●●nciarū▪ act. 4. more men's judgement then Euagrius. Howbeit, if he were not: yet Alexandria will have a head still. For o Acta Ephes. Synod. 2. in council. Chalc. act. 1. Dioscorus was Precedent in the next of Ephesus: neither he alone but also the Bishops of jerusalem and Caesarea. Wherefore if the Presidentship of a general Council do make a supreme head: then Corauba in Spain, Alexandria in Egypt, jerusalem in jewrie, and other cities of the East may claim the supreme headship as well as Rome in Italy. The Pope will be loath to have so many partners. But to deliver him from that fear, or rather the Church from his tyranny, and the truth from your sophism: there is a distinction in p Summa de ecclesia lib. 3. cap. 23. Cardinal Turrecremata which is worth the noting upon this very point. The Presidentship of Counsels (he saith) is twofold: one, 1 Praesidentiae honoraria: of honour; an other, 2 Autoritativa, as Turrecrema to calleth it. But he useth that word to note potestatem, and not 〈◊〉 reputationis, as h● dis●inguisheth it, lib. 3. cap. 18. of power. Presidentship of honour, is, to have pre-eminence in place, to propose things, to direct the actions, to give definitive sentence according to the voices and judgement of the Council▪ Presidentship of power is to have the right, not only of directing, but of ruling their doings also, and to conclude of matters after his own judgement, though the greater part of the Council like it not, yea, though no part like it. Now the Pope's supremacy challengeth this Presidentship of power in Counsels, as though he alone were sovereign judge there: which appeareth by his practice in q ●s the Clementines show: & johan. Andr. in p●inc●p. Clementin. the Council of Vienna, and by the r Summa de eccles. lib. 3. ca 22.23. & 25. Cardinal's doctrine with the s Canus jocor. Theolog. l. 5. c. 5. Saunder. de visib. monarc. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 5. & 〈◊〉. passim. chiefest Papists. But that, which the general Council of Chalcedon gave unto Leo in naming him their head, was the Presidentship of honour: as himself showed in his Legates and Deputies, t Conc. Chalc. act. 3. & 8. who used all the Bishops as their fellow-iudges, and concluded nothing but what they agreed of. Wherefore the Presidentship, which they gave to Leo, was no Papal sovereignty: neither did they acknowledge him in that particular, much less the Pope in general, to be their supreme head. Hart. The Fathers did in general acknowledge the Pope, and taught us to acknowledge him, our u act. 3. universal Patriarch and x Cyprian lib. ●. epist. 11. Bishop of the Catholic Church: nay (to use yet more the words of the most ancient Fathers) y Optatus. lib. 2. our Prince, z Victor de persecut Va●●dal. lib. 2. the head of all Churches, a Chrysos. hom. 87. in johan. the top and the chief of the Apostolic company, or (as b In Anchorat. Epiphanius speaketh) the chiefest, c Hom. 87. in johan. the teacher of the whole world, d Ambros. come. in 1. Tim. 3. the ruler of the house of God, e August. quaest. ex nou. Testam. quaest. 75. an other father of the household, and f Chrysost. hom. 59 in Mat. the first begotten; whose seat (as the most excellent Divine, S. g Lib. 1. cap. 1. ad Bonifacium. Austin saith) hath the pre-eminence of a higher room in the pastoral watchtower which is common to all Bishops. And will any man desire greater proofs of the Pope's supremacy? Rainoldes. If any man do: he must take the pains to seek them somewhere else. Sure he is not like to find them in your Stapleton. For these are the chiefest of all in his treasury. Which therefore he culled out, and sent them for h Epistola dedicato●ia Pontifici optimo Maximo, Gregorio decimo tertio, ad hum●llima pedum oscula. a present to Gregory the thirteenth: to show what good words they give of his Holiness for his liberality toward the English Seminaries. But he presenteth him with one title more, which you have omitted: and yet doth it advance him above all the rest. Hart. None of the titles which the Fathers give him. Belike you mean that of i Martianus in epist. ad Leon. the Emperor. Rainoldes. No: I mean that of his own, * Which is as much to say, as, Great is Diana of the Ephesians. Act. 19.28. Supremum in terris Numen. In deed it hath no Father's testimony to prove it. But as in this title he playeth the notable flatterer with the Pope: so, in the rest, the notable sophister with you. For the titles of our Prince, the top, the chief and chiefest of the Apostolic company, the teacher of the whole world, an other father of the household, and the first begotten: are given by Optatus, Chrysostom, Epiphanius, and a k So Alfonsus proveth him, advers. haeres. lib. 10. in Melchisedec: and the Divines of lovan, Censura in lib. quaest. ver. & nou. Test. in append. Tom. 4. oper. Augustin. bastard Austin, to Peter, not to the Pope. Stapleton alleging them saith that he useth the words of the Fathers. That is cunningly spoken. For it is true he useth their words, though not their meaning. As for the title of universal Patriarch: the Council of Chalcedon (which he quoteth for it) gave it not to the Pope neither. Hart. No? did not l Concil. chalc act. 3. Theodore and certain others there give it to Pope Leo. Rainoldes. A few poor suitors, in their supplications to him and the Council, did seek his favour with it. But neither the Council nor any one Bishop of the Council gave it him. Hart. They gave it him, at least by their consent, & judgement. For they would have reproved it when they heard it read in the supplications, if they had not allowed of it. Rainoldes. Say you so? what think you then of m Concil. Lateran. sub Leone decim. sess. 10. the Council of Lateran? where the Pope is told (and that, in a n Stephan. archiepisc. Patrac. & episc. Torcellan. Sermon) that 1 Tibi data est omnis potestas in c●elo & in terra. Spoken to Pope Leo the tenth. to him is given all power in heaven and in earth; yea, which is more, that 2 In quo erat omnis potestas supra omnes potestates tam coeli quam terrae. Spoken of Pope Eugeniu● the third. he hath all power above all powers both of heaven and of earth. Did the Council allow of these blasphemous speeches? They did not reprove them. Hart. But the Council of Chalcedon did offer themselves the title of universal Patriarch to Pope Leo, as S. o Registr. lib. 4. epist. 32. & 36. Gregory writeth: they did not only hear it given him by others. Rainoldes. S. Gregory affirmeth it to be p epist. 32. a new, a proud a pompous, a profane, q epist. 38. a rash, perverse, foolish, abominable, r epist. 39 wicked, and s l. 6. ep. 24. superstitious title: t l. 4. ep. 32. & 38. a name of singularity, of arrogancy, of blasphemy. The Council of Chalcedon was a company of six hundred Bishops and thirty, sound in religion, and zealous of the glory of God. You must pardon me, if I discredit rather the word of one Gregory: then think that six hundred and thirty such Bishops did offer to commit so great iniquity and folly. For neither is there any proof of that offer in any part of the Council, which is wholly extant: and that which made u Regist. lib. 7. ind. 2. ep. 63. as I have showed in the former Division. Gregory to misreport the Bishop of Constantinople, might induce him likewise to misreport these Bishops too. Wherein his affection may be the more suspected, because x lib. 7. ind. 1. epist. 30. he saith farther, that it was offered to his predecessors not only by the Council, but also by the Father's following. The names (it is likely) of these Fathers following should have been forth coming, if they had been at hand, the matter being so important. Howbeit if they, and the Council both, had not only offered it, but given it also: yet might they have given it in respect of lesser pre-eminence than the Papacy. Which it must needs be the Council should have done: for else they had contraried y Concil. Chalced. ●an. 9 & 17. & ●8. and in the Sessions throughout. their own decrees and actions. And z Adrian the 〈◊〉. Synod. 〈◊〉 2. act. 2. the Pope himself gave it to the Patriarch of Constantinople, as a title of honour (I trow) and not of power. Wherefore the first title, put upon the Fathers of the Council of Chalcedon, inferreth not the Pope's supremacy. Much less doth the next, alleged out of Cyprian. For although Cornelius, a godly Bishop of Rome, be there named Bishop of the Catholic Church: yet is he so named, not as the word [Catholic] signifies universal, but as it signifies right believing, holding the Catholic faith. Wherefore it maketh no more for his supremacy, then for a Epist. Arsen. Athanas. apol.. 2 Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria, and b Epist. concil● Nicaeni, Socrat. l. 1. c. 6. & concilii Sardicensis Theodoret. li. 2. ca 8. Quint. council. Constantinop. confess. 8. in subscript. other Catholic Bishops, who all are named Bishops of the Catholic Church. Hart. A particular Church may be called Catholic in respect of the Catholic faith which it professeth. And so was Athanasius Bishop of the Catholic Church of Alexandria. Rainoldes. And Cornelius Bishop of the Catholic church of Rome. Hart. Nay: he was Bishop of the Catholic Church of the whole world, not of the city of Rome only. For it followeth c Lib. 3. ep. 11. Epist. 46. edit. Pam. Corneliu● Cypriano. in the same place, that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholic Church. Rainoldes. That is, in the Catholic Church of the city of Rome. For Cornelius himself, in whose epistle that is written, saith other where (entreating d Epist. ad Fabium Antioch. e●piscopum. of the same matter) that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholic Church, wherein there are six and forty Elders and seven Deacons. Now e Euseb. hist. eccles. lib. 6. c. 42. in a Synod which then was held at Rome, there were above threescore Elders and Deacons: how many hundred more through the whole world? Wherefore sigh six and forty Elders and seven Deacons, were not all the Elders and Deacons of the world, but of the city of Rome: it followeth that the Catholic Church wherein he saith there aught to be one Bishop, was the Catholic Church of the city of Rome, not of the whole world. And, that this was meant in that of Cornelius, it is very plain by the occasion of his speéche: as also by the canon of the Council of Nice made on that occasion. For the Church * As it is showed before, Ch●pt. 5. 〈◊〉. 2. being troubled at that time with the schism and heresy of Novatus: the novatians refusing the communion of the Catholics, ordained new Bishops for their heretical synagogues and schismatical conventicles. Whereby it came to pass that in one city there were two Bishops, a Catholic, and an heretic: as in f Cyprian. epist. 52. ad An●on. Rome, Cornelius and Novatianus; in g Epist. 5● ad Corneliu●. Carthage, Cyprian, and Fortunatus. The Catholics therefore, communicating in faith and love with Cornelius, h E●ist 46. Cornelij ad Cyp●. called him Bishop of the Catholic Church: condemning the novatians as heretics, and schismatics, with their Bishop Novatianus. And as they said farther, that there ought to be one Bishop in a Catholic Church, according to the ancient order as I i In the third Division of this Chapter. showed: so was it decreed by the k Can. 8. Nicen Council touching the novatians who became Catholics, that, if a Bishop of theirs were converted l Socrat▪ hist. eccl. l. 6. c. 20. the Catholic Church having a Bishop; he should not enjoy a Bishop's room, but an Elders, lest that there should be two Bishops in a city. Wherefore the Bishopric of the Catholic Church, in the time of Cornelius, was the charge that every Catholic Bishop had. Neither meant they more who said that there ought to be but one Bishop in a Catholic Church, then S. Chrysostom did, saying to Sisinius Bishop of the novatians in Constantinople, A city may not have two Bishops. Hart. But S. m Epist. 55. ad Cornelium. Cyprian writeth, that neither heresies nor schisms have sprung of any other fountain, then of this, that the Priest of God is not obeyed: and that one Priest for the time in the Church, and one judge for the time in steed of Christ is not regarded. To whom, if the whole brotherhood would be obedient according to God's teachings: then no man would make any thing ado against the company of Priests. Wherein, by one Priest, he meaneth one Bishop; and, by one Bishop, Cornelius the Pope, to whom he writeth those words. So that he confesseth the Pope to be the Bishop of the whole Church, and teacheth men to think of him, as one judge for the time in Christ's steed. Rainoldes. You err still in the same point. The Church wherein Cyprian requireth obedience unto one Bishop and judge in Christ's steed, is the particular Church of every city, not the universal. For he speaketh it on occasion of injury offered to himself by the novatians in Carthage: who there had ordained a new Bishop against him, as their fellows did in Rome, against Cornelius. And as the words 1 Sacerdotum hosts & contra ecclesia catholicam rebels. before, and 2 Sacerdotes, id est, dispensatores Dei. after, do show that he meaneth it of all Catholic Bishops, each in his own charge: so the whole discourse & circumstances argue that he apply it to himself, not to Cornelius. Chief, that, of 3 Episcopus plebi suae in episcopatu quadriennio iam probatus. a Bishop approved to his people in the Bishopric four years. Which can by no means agree to Cornelius, who was Eusebius in chron. Damasus in Pontificali. Platin. de vit. Pontificum. Ge●●brard. Cronogr. lib. 3. O●uphr. in Chron. Pont. Rom. not three years Bishop. Or if, because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope, you have such a prejudice that it is the Pope's peculiar: you may know that he writeth the same o Epist. 69. ad Florentium. to an other expressly of himself; Thence have schisms & heresies sprung, & do spring, that the Bishop, which is one, and ruleth the church, is despised by the proud presumption of certain men. Wherefore though your p Annotat. in Luk. 12.31. Rhemists and q Polus Ca●d. pro eccles. unitat. defence. lib. 2. Remundus Rufus, duplicat. in patronum Molin●i propont. Maximo. Canisius Catechism. de praeceptis ecclesiae tit. 9 Lindanus Panopliae evangelicae lib. 4. cap. 86. Pamelius Annotat. in Cyprian epi. 55. Copus dialog. 1 cap. 18. & 21. Ha●ding and Dorman against Bishop jewel. Though Dor●man (being taught the truth by M. Nowell acknowledged that S. Cyprian meant it of all Bishops. As Stapleton (in Harding'S behalf) confessed also▪ whose example should have moved the Rhemists to have spared S. Cyprian in that point. other of the Pope's friends do ply the box with that saying of one Priest & one judge for the time in Christ's steed: yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester, as for the Bishop of Rome. The more is Stapletons' blame: who knowing and confessing the same not only r In his Return of untruths on M. jewels repli●. Artic. 4.. otherwhere, but in s Princip. doct. lib. 7. cap. 1. this very work of his principles too; yet in t In conclusione totius operis & admonit. ad lectorem. the end thereof abridgeth it to the Pope. Marvel, that in his preface to Gregory he passed it. He might have alleged it better than he hath The head of all Churches. Which title is given in u Depersecut. Vandal. lib. 2. Victor to the Church of Rome, not to the Bishop: and toucheth less the Papacy there, then in S. Gregory; in whom it doth not prove it, as x In the fifth Division of this Chapter. I have declared. Marry, that which followeth is of greater show, out of Ambroses' commentary on S. Paul to Timothee: where Damasus (the Bishop of Rome in his time) is called ruler of the Church. But, first, whatsoever he were who wrote that, it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan: on whom are falsely fathered the commentaries on S. Paul, as your y Praefat. in Biblia excusa Antuerp. a Plantino. & Censur. in lib. quaest. vet. & nou. Test. Tom. 4. in append. operum August. Divines of Lovan do observe and testify. Next, the words themselves which are in that autour on mention of the house of God, [the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus,] are not (in my judgement) the authors own words, but a gloze crept in amongst them. For whereas S. Paul, writing unto Timothee, declared why he did so, to weet, that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God: z Commentaria quae Ambrosij titulum ferunt. in 1. Tim. 3. the commentary thereon doth expound it thus, I writ unto thee that thou mayest know how to govern the Church, which is the house of God; that whereas all the world is Gods, yet the Church is called his house. [the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus,] For the world is nought, troubled with sundry errors. Therefore the house of God and truth must of necessity be said to be there, where he is feared according to his will. In the which words, if that of [Damasus] were omitted, the l●ter claws containing a reason of the former would cleave thereunto more suantly and fitly. Which maketh me to think that it was not pitched in thetext by the author, but found a ●hinke and so came in; as a Damaso Siriciu, ●odie. an other gloze of [Damasus successor] hath done into b Lib ●. As Bald●●n●. showeth Annot. in 〈◊〉 lib. 1. & 2. Optatus. And I think it the rather, because some are persuaded by manifold conference, (as your c Cen●●r. in lib. 〈…〉 4. Lovanists note,) that the book of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin, & this to S. Ambrose are the same authors. For d 〈…〉 Pope until about 370. hieron. in Chron. he, who wrote that book, was not alive (of likelihood) when Damasus was Pope. Howbeit, if he were too, and of a kind ●ffection to Rome, e Lib. quaest. vet. & nou. testam. quaest. 115. where he lived, thought good to mention him: the words which he useth in Latin, [cuius hody rector est Damasus.] might mean that Damasus was [a ruler of the Church] not, as f The Rhemists in the●r Annot. 〈◊〉 1. Tim. 3.15. you english it [the ruler.] Which to have been so, it appeareth farther by the word [at this day,] spoken with a relation to the days of Timothee: that as he did govern the Church in Paul's time, so at that present was Damasus ruler of it. Wherefore sith Timothee was g 1. Tim. 1.3. placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order, not to rule the whole: Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church, in that he was 4 Roman ecclesiae sacerdos. Bishop of the Church of Rome, as S. h Epist. ad Valenti●ian. Impetat. contra Symmachum. Ambrose termeth him, though he were not the ruler of the universal. S. Austin is the last o● them whose testimonies you cited▪ And, the pre-eminence of a higher room, whereof i Contra d●as ep●st. Pelag an●t. ad Bonifa●●u● li● 1. c. ●. he made mention to Boniface the first, importeth a prerogative of honour over others, not sovereignty of power. A prerogative of honour; according to the canon of k Can. 3. the first Council of Constantinople: which 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. gave that prerogative to the See of Rome, 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as ●he coun●●l o● Chalced● i●●erpreteth their fact, c●n. 2●. because that city reigned. Not sovereignty of power; as it is evident by the Council of Africa: where l Ep. 〈◊〉 Afric. ad Bonifacium, & C●lestinum. he denied that to the same Boniface, to whom he granted this pre-eminence. It was therefore only the dignity of place, which S. Austin meant by the higher room. As m Cont. julian. P●lag●. l. 1. c. 4. else where, having named Cyprian, Olympius, and other ancient writers, he saith that Innocentius was 7 〈◊〉 tempore, prior loco. after them in time, before them in place: because they were Bishops of inferior cities; and he of the Roman. Hart. Nay: but S. n Epist. 16●. Austin saith in plain terms, that the principality of the Apostolic * 〈…〉 Chapt. 7. Diui●. ●. See had flourished in that Church still. Rainoldes. But S. Austin addeth in as plain terms, that Bishops may reserve their cases to the judgement of their fellow-bishops, chief of the Apostolic Church: and that a general Council is above the Pope in judging of those causes too. Which is a clear proof that by the principality of the Apostolic See he meant the Church of Rome to be chief of other Churches (as I said) in honour, not in power. For in power, all others, at least the Apostolic, (that is, in which the faith of Christ had been taught by the Apostles themselves) are made equal with it. But amongst all, in which the Apostles themselves had taught the faith, the Roman for honour & credit had the chiefty. And thus have I discharged myself of my promise: which was, that I would yield unto the Pope's supremacy, if you proved it by the sayings and judgement of the Fathers, alleged and applied rightly. For none of all them which you have alleged, neither of any other church, nor of the Roman itself, doth avouch it. Whereby the shameless vanity of o Motiu. 14. Bristol may be seen: who, being not contented to say of all the Fathers, that they were Papists; addeth that in familiar talk among ourselves we are not afeard plainly to confess it. The Lord, who is witness of our thoughts, and speeches, knoweth that we are lewdly slandered herein. And for mine own part, I am so far off from confessing plainly that they were all Papists: that I have plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to have been. For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Pope's supremacy. But the Pope's supremacy was not allowed by any of the Fathers. Not one then of all the Fathers was a Papist. Wherefore, if you have the Fathers in such reverent regard and estimation, as you pretend, M. Hart: let, if not the Scriptures, yet the Fathers move you to forsake Papistry; and give to every pastor and church their own right, whereof Christ hath possessed them, and the Pope hath rob them. The ninth Chapter. 1 The Church is the pillar & ground of the truth. The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Council, 2 the Council of Nice, 3 of Antioch, of Sardica, of Constantinople, Milevis, Carthage, Africa, 4 of Ephesus, of Chalcedon, of Constantinople est 'zounds, and of Nice, of Constance, and of basil; with the judgements of Universities, and several Churches throughout Christendom: condemning all the Pope's supremacy. HART. The first Division. The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Pope's supremacy to be catholic. Wherefore you do evil to touch it with the name of Papistry. For a 1. Tim. 3.15. the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. Rainoldes. The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth, in office, and duty: and b Mal. 2. ver. 7. the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hosts. But as c ver. 8. there were Priests, who did not their message in showing Gods will: so there may be Churches, which shall not uphold and maintain the truth. Hart. Nay, that is true still, which the Church teacheth. For S. Paul saith not that it ought to be the pillar & ground of the truth, but that it is so. Rainoldes. Neither doth Malachi say, that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hosts, but that he is so. And what is the occasion whereupon S. Paul saith that? and to whom? Hart. To Timothee: that he might know how he ought to converse in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God. Rainoldes. The Church then, which Timothee was conversant in, and must behave himself according to his charge in government thereof, is called (by S. Paul) the pillar and ground of the truth. Hart. It is: and what then? Rainoldes. But d 1. Tim. 1.3. the Church which Timothee was conversant in, was the Church of Ephesus. The Church of Ephesus then is called the pillar and ground of the truth. Now e Concil. Flor. Session. vlt. Laon. Chalcocondylas de rebus Turc. lib. 6. the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Pope's supremacy: nor only that Church, but other of the East too. Wherefore, if that be true still which the Church teacheth, because S. Paul calleth it the pillar and ground of the truth: the doctrine of the Pope's supremacy is wicked, and Papistry is heresy. Hart. The Churches of the East have erred therein. But the West alloweth it for catholic doctrine. And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it, until schism and heresy had severed them one from the other. Rainoldes. That speech is as true as was the former of the Fathers. For, except the crew of the Italian faction, who have advanced the Pope that they might reign with him, all Christian Churches have condemned his usurped sovereignty, and do till this day. Hart. All Christian Churches? who did ever say so before you? or what one witness have you of it? Rainoldes. The Pastors and Doctors, in Synods and Counsels, wherein they took order for their Church-government, each in their several ages. For, to begin with the ancientest, and so come down to our own: it was (in f Ep. 55. ad Cornelium. Cyprians time) 1 Statutum est omnibus nobis, ordained by them all that every man's cause should be heard there, where the fault was committed. Hart. That must be understood of the first handling of causes, not the last. For they might be heard at Rome upon appeals, if, being heard at home first, the parties were not satisfied. Rainoldes. The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian, 2 jam causa eo●rum cognita cit. was heard at home already by the Bishops of Africa, who excommunicated them. Yet he reproveth them for running to Rome. Wherefore the ordinance, that he groundeth on, did provide for hearing and determining of causes both first, last, and all; against such as appealed (if you so term it) to Rome. Which he maketh plainer yet, in that he calleth 3 Sciunt quo r●uertantur. those Rome-appealers home, if upon repentance they seek to be restored; and saith, that they ought to plead their cause there where they may have accusers and witnesses of their fault, and that other Bishops ought not to retract things done by them of Africa: 4 ●isi paucis desperatis & perciti ●●uinor videtur 〈…〉. unless a few lewd & desperate persons think the Bishops of Africa to have less authority, by whom they were judged already, and condemned. Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Africa are of less authority: you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome, but with the Bishops of France, Spain, Greece or Asia, and chief of Num●dia. Rainoldes. You were better say, as g The Discoverer 〈…〉 a jesuit doth, that Cyprian hath no such thing: then * It is Sanders answer, De vi 〈…〉 lib. ●. answer so absurdly. For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such, as the parties, whom they▪ had condemned, did run to for remedy. And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome. It was ordained therefore by all the Bishops of Africa, Italy, and others in the primitive Church that the Pope should not be the supreme judge of ecclesiastical causes. Hart. Why doth S. h Lib. ● epist. 3. ad Step 〈…〉 Epi●t. 67. Pa●. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian, a Novatian heretic, Bishop of Arle in France: and to substitute an other in his room, a Catholic? Rainoldes. Nay, i Staplet. p●●n●. doctrine. l. 6. c. 17 ●he discou. of 〈◊〉. 3. why do your men say that S. Cyprian doth so, whereas he doth not? For he desireth Stephen to write 5 Ad coepiscopos no●●ros in Ga●●●s. to the Bishops of France to depose him: and 6 E●p ovinciam & ad p●●ebem ● rel●ate cond●entem. to the province and people of Arle, to choose a new. Both which things are disproofes of the Pope's supremacy. Who neither could depose Bishops at that time; as also k De reforma●. eccle. consid. 3. the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth, misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them, which then a Synod did: neither, when a Bishop was orderly deposed, could he create an other; but the people of the city and Bishops of the province chose him. Yea, a Bishop chosen by them, was lawful Bishop, though the Pope confirmed him not; yea, though he disallowed him: as it is declared by a l Epist. Synod. African. ad cler. & pleb in Hispan. Cyprian. Ep. 68 Council of Africa against the same Pope Stephen. Wherefore m Epist. 67. ad Stephanum. Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop: but aught to give his neighbour's counsel to do it, for 7 Ide●rco ●aim ●●p●osum corpu● est s●cer●otum, concor●iae 〈◊〉 glut●no a●que unitatis vinculo c●pulas tum, ut si quis ex collegio nostro 〈…〉 facere, & greg●m Chri●●●●e 〈◊〉 & 〈…〉 bueniant cateri, quasi pa●●ores utiles & misericordes, quiove. Domigicas in gregem colligant. the common duty that every pastor oweth to all the sheep of Christ, to help them when they are in danger. And thus sith the ordinances of the primitive Church deharred the Pope from the sovereign power of judging, deposing, & creating Bishops, nor from this only but other ecclesiastical causes, as I showed: it followeth that the primitive Church did deny the supremacy of the Pope; or, to say it with the words of n Aen. silvius Card. ep. 288. Cardinal silvius, Before the Council of Nice men lived each to himself, and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome. Hart. Yet there was a Councils o Bella●min. 〈◊〉. ●om. controver 4. quaest. 5. holden at Sinuessa ( p Sigon. de occident. imper. lib. 1. or Suessa, as some say) before the Council of Nice. And there, q Marcellini Papae condemna●●o▪ Tom. 1. Cancilior. when Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offering incense unto idols: the Bishops said that he might be judged of no man. Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacy. Rainoldes. That Council is a counterfeit. As you may perceive by that it reporteth that Diocletian the Emperor did talk at Rome with Marcellinus, and brought him to idolatry. Whereas r As Sigonius showeth: the occident. imperio. lib. 1. Diocletian was then at Nicomedia, about a thousand miles off. Besides that, Diocletians war against the Persians was ended certain years before the time of that Council. Yet the Council saith that Diocletian, being in that war, heard of it. There is an other Council of the same stamp, holden under Pope Silvester at Rome, s Synod. Roma. sub silvest. Pap. act. 1. cap. 1. about the time that Constantine was cleansed of his leprosy: t Platin de vi●. ●otit. in Marco. 〈◊〉 chronogr. volume. 2, generat. 11. vives de cawl, corrupt. a●●. lib. 2. A●●●at. parerg. iur. lib. 7. ca 19 that is to say, never. Amongst the canons whereof, ( u Synod. ●om. sub. ●iluest. ●ap. act. 2. those which begin with * That is to say, For no man, with the which worces almost all the canons of the secon● action begin, most 〈◊〉. Nemo enim,) there is one x Nemo enim dii● dicet primam sedem. cap. 20 Nemo enim to that effect, that yours of Sinuessa. But what the true Bishops of the primitive church thought of judging him, they showed by their judgement of his fellow at Antioch, Paulus Samosatenus: y Euseb. histor. eccles. lib. 7. cap. 28. & 29. whom the Bishops and Elders of his own province did excommunicate and depose; against your Counsels lie, that z Nemo unquam iudicavit Pontificem, nec prae●●l sacerdotem suum. No man ever judged his bishop. Wherefore to return to the primitive Church's ordinances and rules from these devices Papal of Counsels never holden: the first general Council assembled at Nice did keep the Pope under in his former state. For they ordained that a Concil. Niscaen. can. 4. Bishops should be made by Bishops of their own province, requiring no consent of his thereunto: neither did they give the hearing and determining of causes unto him, but b can. 5. unto the Bishops of the province too; The second Division. commanding the ancient canon to be kept, that none should receive them to the communion who were excommunicated and condemned by others. Hart. True: if they were justly condemned and excommunicate. But if their own Bishop had dealt unjustly with them upon some displeasure, and removed them from the communion wrongfully; which you cannot deny but that he might do: then reason requireth that they should have remedy. Now the remedy thereof is by appeal to the Pope. Rainoldes. This remedy was devised by new Physicians, that lacked work: it increaseth diseases. The Nicen Physicians foreseeing the danger, provided an other and better remedy for them. Hart. Better? what is that? Rainoldes. The cause to be heard in a Synod of Bishops, so to be decided by their common judgement. For let it be examined (say they) whether the Bishop have excommunicated them upon a way wardness, or grudge, or too much rigour. Whereof that there may be due examination, we have thought good that in every province two synods should be kept yearly: to the intent, that in common (all Bishops of the province being gathered together) such things may be examined. And so, whosoever shall be found in fault, and to have been dealt with justly by the Bishop: let them be holden of all for excommunicate; till it shall seem good to the Synod of Bishops to give more gentle sentence of them. Hart. I grant, the Council of Nice doth bring matters first from the Bishop to the Synod. But if the Synod also do give unjust sentence: then is the Pope left for the last refuge. Rainoldes. The Council meant not so: but that the last refuge should be the Synod still. For they do not say, till it shall seem good to the Bishop of Rome, but, to the Synod of Bishops, to give more gentle sentence of them. Yea, even the particular honour and pre-eminence of his, which they mention, is a plain token that they dreamt not of such a general power. For it followeth strait in c Can. 6. the next canon, Let old customs be kept, they that are in Egypt, and Lybia, and Pentapolis, that the Bishop of Alexandria have the pre-eminence of all these: because such is the custom of the Bishop of Rome too. Likewise also in Antioch, and in other provinces, let the Churches enjoy their dignities and prerogatives. Which words of the Council grounding on the custom of the Bishop of Rome, that as he had pre-eminence of all the Bishops about him, so Alexandria and Antioch should have of all about them, and likewise other churches, (as the Metropolitan,) each in their own provinces: do show, that the Pope neither had pre-eminence of all through the world before the Nicen Council, nor aught to have greater pre-eminence (by their judgement) than he before time had. Hart. Nay, the Council did not limit the pre-eminence and power of the Church of Rome by those words: but they followed rather it as a pattern, in advancing others. For the Nicen Council, (saith d Epist. ad Michael. Imperatorem. Concilior. Tom. 3. Sur. Nicolas the first) durst not make any decree of that Church: as knowing that nothing could be given her above her desert; yea, that she had all things by the grant of Christ. And if the Counsels canons be diligently marked, you shall find doubtless, that they gave no increase to the church of Rome: but rather took example of the form thereof for that which they would give to the church of Alexandria. Rainoldes. Pope Nicolas, endeavouring to prove his supremacy by records of Counsels, some impudently forged, as the Council of Sinuessa; some lewdly misexpounded, as * Can. 9 In the which, Nicolas saith the Pope is m●ant. and none but the Pope, ●y primas dia ce●●os ●. whereas in very truth the Council meant every Patriarch thereby, as I have showed, Chapt. 8. Division 5. the Council of Chalcedon: not knowing what to say well of the Council of Nice, doth shape this answer to it, for lack of a better. But as a drunken man that hath a giddy head, intending to go one way sometimes, doth reel an other: so fareth it with him. For, in saying that they took example of the form of the Church of Rome for that which they would give to the Church of Alexandria: he granteth that as the Bishop of Alexandria had but the pre-eminence of all thereabout, no more had the Bishop of Rome. And seeing that example is allowed therein, and made a pattern of the rest: it followeth that the Council thereby did decree that the Bishop of Rome should keep within those limits. Which to be the purport of that Nicen canon: not only singular authors, e Hist. eccle. lib. 1. cap. 6. Rufinus, and f De concord. cathol. l. 2. c. 13. Cusanus, but a g Synod. actau. gener. Constan●. can. 17. general Council also hath declared. In deed the very sticking of your own men in it, like birds in the lime, may show that in the sight of sense and common reason it maketh directly against the Pope's supremacy. For h Distinct 65. c● mos antiq●us. Gratian having set it down, as he found it, Let the old custom hold in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis, that the bishop of Alexandria have rule of all these; 1 Quando quidem & ●omano ●piscopo parilis 〈…〉. because the Bishop of Rome too hath the like custom: the gloze on him expoundeth it, like, Id 〈◊〉, si nilis in who a●dam, quo ●●am uterque deponitepisc●●●s. that is, like in some things, because they both depose Bishops; 3 Vel dic, Romano, id est, Constantinopolitano. or say, the Bishop of Rome, that is, of Constantinople. Of which expositions, the former being dangerous, that any may depose Bishops, beside the Pope: a gloze upon that gloze alloweth the later of Constantinople, & saith it is 4 Me●ius & planius secundum Hug. the better in the judgement of Hue. But Hue was deceived. For though Constantinople were called new Rome within a few years after: yet i Sigon. de occi. Imper. lib. 3. & 4. neither was it called Rome, nor Constantinople, at the time that the canon, whereof we speak, was made. k In summa Conciliorum. Carranza therefore helpeth it with an old edition, showed him by a Cardinal: which in steed of these words, the Bishop of Rome, had, 5 Metropolitan episcopo. the Metropolitan. And this would serve fitly to take away the scruple (as l Carranz. annot. in 6. can. Conc. Ni●aen. he saith it doth) of them who have thought that the Bishop of Rome is made equal with other Metropolitans by that canon. But because it goeth against the consent of m In Concil. Chalced. act. 16. most ancient copies of the Popes own and others, n D●●en. sid. Trident. l. 2. Andradius reproveth it: and, keeping the name of the Bishop of Rome, saith, that by his custom, his judgement is meant. A hard interpretation, and flat against the text: which, authorising and approving the custom of the Bishop of Alexandria, because the Bishop of Rome hath 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. that custom too, doth ground them both upon 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 old customs, not one upon the others judgement. Wherefore o Bellarmin. in praelect. Rom. contr. 4. quae●t. 5. The abridgement of controversies, Controu. 3. quaest. 4. the jesuits (the perfiters of Popery) have concluded now, that the beginning of the canon wanteth: what? this, 8 Ecclesia Romana semper habuit primatum. The Church of Rome hath still had the primacy. Hart. And good reason why. For it is cited so in the p Action. 16. Council of Chalcedon. Rainoldes. So they say: but falsely. And that with a pretty shift of legi●rdemaine. For whereas Paschasinus (the Pope's Legate there) bringing forth that canon to the Pope's behoof, had set this title over it, [ 9 Quod ecclesia Romana semper ●abuit primatum. That the Church of Rome hath still had the primacy:] the jesuits suppressing quite the word [That] do allege the rest as a part of the canon. Hart. Perhaps they thought the word [That] to be superfluous. Rainoldes. They might have thought the whole title to be so, if they had marked that which followeth in the Council. For the same canon being recited strait out of an other copy by Constantine the Secretary, hath no word thereof. But to leave the dealing of the Pope's legate with the beginning of the canon: the jesuits cannot scape out of the midst of it, no more than their complices. For the Roman reader is entangled in it as fast as Pope Nicolas, whose form he relieth on. The * A book so entitled, touching the controversies of our time: compiled by Robert Persons, out of the Dictates of the jesuits, for ou● English Students, and used to be written out by the hearers thereof in the seminaries. Wherein (because such libels go in writing only among their own Novices,) they co● and lie more boldly the● commonly they dare in print. As any man that hath it, if he compare their tractate of the Pope's supremacy with this our conference, shall perceive. abridgement of controversies doth lie by his side too, with braver show, but lesser strength. Hart. Whether that title were added to the canon by the Pope's Legate, or were a part thereof, it maketh no matter. The primacy named in it was given to the Pope by the Council of Nice. For though in the common volumes of Counsels there be but twenty canons of theirs extant now: yet they made fourscore. By many of the which the Pope is authorised to judge all greater causes, as q Rescript. jul. Pap. contra Orient. Concil. Tom. 1. julius declareth. Yea, the fourscore canons whole were found of late at Alexandria in the Arabian tongue: and turned into Latin out of the Arabian by a learned jesuite. Therein are patriarchs said to rule all their subjects, as the Pope is head of all patriarchs, like Peter: to whom all power is given over all Christian Princes, and over all their peoples, as being Christ's vicar over all nations of the earth. Rainoldes. That of Pope r Concil. Nicen. edit. ab Alfonso Pisano, can. 39 julius I have already showed to be a bastard imp. The canons cited in it, are ●att after kind. t Annot. in Dist. 16. c. septuaginta. Contius, your lawyer, saith s Chapt. 8. Diuis. 6. that their bastardy is proved even by this, that no man, no not Gratian himself durst allege them. No doubt, if the Pope had laid them up 1 In sacro nostrae ecclesiae sedis scrinio. so, as the counterfeit julius 2 Testis est divinitas. sweareth that he did: Pope Zosimus, and the rest, u In Concil. Carthag. 6. & African. who made such add with the Bishops of Africa about the Nicen Council, would have found and showed them. But the Arabian canons which the jesuite brought from Alexandria, may suffice to give or take a death's wound of them. For those which julius citeth, are not in the Arabian. That which the Arabian hath, is not in julius. Hart. Though julius cite not that of the Pope's supremacy, which the Arabian hath: yet might it be true. And certes the credit of the Arabian copy must needs be very great. Chief sith it agreeth in the perfect number of the Nicen canons. For they were fourscore: as x Epist. Egypt. episcopor. ad Mar●um Pap. Con●●rom. 1. Athanasius writeth. Who sent to Pope Marcus for the full copies of them, when the Arians had burnt them at Alexandria. Rainoldes. And y Rescript. Mar●i P●p. Athanasi● & omnibus Egypt. episcop. Pope Marcus sent them him. Whereby is disclosed the forgery of both their writings. For the books which the Arians burned at Alexandria, were burnt in the time of Constantius the Emperor: as appeareth by the complaint of the right z Epist. ad orthodoxos i● pe●●equ●t. Athanasius, being driven out thence. Now Marcus the Pope was dead about an eight or nine years before, in the time of Constantine: as a In Chronico. jerom recordeth. Hart. But other Fathers speak of sundry things decreed by the Nicen Council, (as you may see in b Alan. Cop. dialog. 1. cap. 7. Cope,) whereof there is no mention in the twenty canons that are extant now. Rainoldes. Neither in the fourscore canons of the Arabian. Wherefore if the sundry things, which they speak of, do prove all sundry canons: the Arabian canon, which c cap. 12. Harpsfields Cope allegeth for the Pope's supremacy, may chance to prove a counterfeit. Nay, it must prove so, because it is a canon: if you believe the Fathers. For they had only twenty: even the same that we have. S d Conc. Cart. 6. & Africanum. Austin and above two hundred Bishops of Africa acknowledged no more. e Conc. Catthag. 6. c. 9 Caecilian, the Bishop of Carthage brought no more from the Council itself, whereat he was present. S. f Conc. African. c. 102. Cyril the Bishop of Alexandria, & g c. 103. Atticus the Bishop of Constantinople, affirm there were no more. h Hist. eccle. l. 1. c. 6. Though he reckon two & twenty▪ by dividing some of them as can. 6. & 3. Rufinus, who hath registered them in his story, delivereth no more. Finally, S. i In princip. Concilior. de s●nodis princip. Isidore, a curious searcher of them, saith, they were just so many. As for other Fathers, if they show any thing to have been decreed by the Nicen Council, which is not in these canons, as k Co●c. Antioch. can. 1. Theod●ret. hist. eccles. l. 1 c. 9 they do certain: the l Canon's & decre●a Concil. Trid●●ti●i. canons & decrees of the council of Trent may teach you that some things might be decreed beside, and yet the canons be but twenty. Hart. What say you then to that which Zosimus alleged in m Conc. Carthag. 6 c. 3. the Council of Carthage, touching appeals of Bishops to the Bishop of Rome? For that is called a canon of the Nicen Council, and not a decree. Rainoldes. I say, that it was neither decree nor canon of it: as n Epist. Concil. Africa 1. ad Boni●ac. & Caelest. c. 101. & 105. the Bishops of Africa answered, and proved. Yea o Bellarmin. in praelect Rom. Contr. 4. q. 5. the Roman reader, the chief of your jesuits, is of the same opinion: adding that he thinketh that Zosimus did call it a canon of the Nicen Council, because it is a canon of the Council of Sardica, and those two Counsels were esteemed as one, and bound up together in the Pope's library. Wherefore sith the Council of Nice made no canons but the common twenty, and they speak against the supremacy of the Pope, even by p Concil. Niche. edit. ab Al●on. Pisan. can. 8. the Arabians own interpretation: whatsoever either Arabian or Roman hath coined to the contrary, that must needs be counterfeit; The third Division. and the Pope is guilty of theft and oppression by verdict of that famous Council. Whereto the Council of Antioch doth join their verdict too. For they say, as the Nicen, not only concerning q Conc. Antioch. can. 19 the making of Bishops, but also r can. 6. & 12. & 20. the determining of causes of the Church. In so much, that s can. 14. if a Bishop being accused, the Bishops of the province agree not about him, some judging with him, some against: yet refer they not the matter to the Pope, but will the Metropolitan to call some other Bishops out of the next province, that they may judge together, and decide the controversy. But t can. 1●. if all the Bishops of the province agree and give one sentence of him: then may he be judged no more by any other, (no not by the Pope,) but that must stand which they have said. Hart. Yet the Council of Sardica can not be denied to have made with us. For there it was ordained, that, u Conc. Sardic. can. 5. if a Bishop, deprived by the Bishops of his own province, appealed to the Pope: the Pope, if he thought good, might write to the Bishops who were near that province, that they should examine the matter diligently, and give right judgement of it; or send himself also some * That is of his Clergy of the Church of Rome: whence the name of Legates a latere is taken. from his own side, to judge together with them. Rainoldes. When this was alleged by the Pope's legate, in his behalf, at Carthage: x Epist. ad Caelestin. Concil. African. c. 100L. the Bishops of Africa said (after long search) that they found it not ordained by any Council. Which moved y Cusan. de concordant. cath●l. l. 2. c. 25. a Doctor of your own to write, that it may be doubted whether the Council of Sardica ordained it or no. And sith z Athan. in Apolog. 2. at that Council there were not many less than forty Bishops of Africa, who brought home the canons thereof, as it is likely: his doubt hath reason for it Unless peradventure, because in a Conc. Sa●dic. can. 3. the fountain and spring of that canon julius is named, in whom b Theodoret. hist. eccle. l. ● cap. 8. the Council had a special affiance for his dealing against the Arians: therefore the Bishops of Africa thought it to have been given personally to julius, not to Popes in general; and so c Privilegium personale extinguitur cum persona. De regulis jur. in sext. to have died with him, not lived with them. But if it were ordained indeed by the Council, in respect of him, as Pope, not as julius: yet d Saunder. de vi●ib. Monar. eccles. lib. 7. Alan. Cop. dialog. 1. cap. 6. they, who avouch it to prove the Pope's supremacy, do make as good a reason, as if a man should claim the whole city of London, because he hath the lease of a house in Hogsdon. For e Conc. Sardic. can. 3. & 5. the Council of Sardica tieth him in all points, (save only in this,) to his own province, as well as other Bishops; and in this, it showeth that he had it not of right before time, but now by that grant; neither doth it grant him to judge of the causes, but to commend the judgement thereof to the Synod, or (at the most) to be a fellow-iudge with them; and they, in whose causes it granteth him so much, are Bishops, f can. 23. & 14. none else. Howbeit, even this too, that he should send some from his own side to judge of their causes together with the Synod, was repealed afterward, and the whole committed to Synods of the province, or diocese, if the province served not. Belike, upon experience of some harm ensuing: as g Plini. hist. nat. l. 17. c. 4. a husband man (in Sicily) having rid stones out of his ground, was troubled so with mire, that he lost his corn till he had laid them in again. For h Conc. Constā●inop. can. 2. the general Council of Constantinople did forbid the Bishops of a diocese (such as Egypt, containing many provinces) to meddle with the Churches without their own limits: and command that things in every province should be ordered by the Synod of the province, according to the canons of the Nicen Council. Hart. But they gave i 〈◊〉. 3. the primacy of honour to the Bishop of Constantinople after the Bishop of Rome. Which showeth that the Bishop of Rome in their judgement was over all in primacy. Rainoldes. In primacy of honour, M. Hart, not of power: as I have often said. For in power they made him equal with his brethren, enclosing them all within their own limits▪ and appointing k can. 6. the causes of Bishops to be judged each by his own Synod, first, of the province; then, of the diocese; without mention of the Pope. 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yet in 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 honour, they set him highest; Constantinople, next: as the very words of the Council sh●w. It is true, that this height and pre-eminence of honour was a cause that moved him to lust for greater power too, and means that lift him up unto it. For as l Masi●s in josuam cap. 20. murderers in Italy are wont to fly to sanctuaries to escape punishment, and m livi. lib. 1. Romulus received runagates at Rome to advance his state: so n ●onc. Afric. cap. 101. disorderly persons not able to maintain their faults against justice in their own province, did run to the Pope; and o cap. 105. ambitious heads, whether of Popes themselves, or of some about them, aspired to greater rule under pretence of privileges of the Church of Rome. But as general Counsels had provided general salves against such evils: so the Counsels of provinces and dioceses applied them to this particular sore for safety of their Churches. For it was decreed by the Council of Milevis, that, p Conc. Mile●itan. can. 22. if any Elder, or Deacon, or clergyman of inferior state appealed * Ad ●ransmarina judicia they term it, whereby the Pope is meant: though Gratian fond do except him, 2. q. 6. c. placuit ut presbyteri. to the Pope: no man in Africa should communicate with him. The Council of Carthage showeth that q Conc. Carth. Grac. can. 28. they had often decreed the same of Bishops. And when yet they could not avoid the shameless shifts of tumultuous brains, who made Rome their refuge; and Zosimus in the quarrel of Apiarius an Elder would have his Bishop urban to be excommunicated, or appear at Rome: the Bishops of all the provinces of Africa did debate the matter with him and his successors, Boniface, and Celestine, for the space of four or five years together. In fine, when the true and authentical copies of the Nicen Council, whereon the Pope grounded, were gotten out of the East; and thereby the falsehood of his plea appeared: r Epist. Concil. African. ad C●lestin. cap. 105. the Council of Africa told him, that he should not meddle with the causes of men in their provinces; nor receive any such to the communion as they had excommunicate. For the Council of Nice (said they) did consider wisely and uprightly that all matters ought to be determined in the places in which they began: as being persuaded that the grace of the holy ghost would not be wanting to any province, whereby the Christian Bishops might both wisely see, and constantly maintain the right. Chief, sith it is lawful for any, if he like not the sentence of his judges, to appeal to the Synods of his own province: yea, or farther also to a 3 Vniue●sale, meaning a Synod of t●e diocese, not, of the whole world. Concil. Cons●antinop. can. 6. general Synod. Unless there be any perhaps who will imagine, that our God can inspire the trial of right into one man, and deny it to a great number of Bishops assembled in a Synod. And so going forward with proof that the Pope ought not to judge their causes, either at Rome, himself; or by his Legates sent from Rome: they touched his attempt in modest sort, but at the quick, condemning it of 4 Fumosum typhum saeculi. pride, & smoky stateliness of the world. Hart. I marvel if the Council of Africa wrote thus, as you report of it. For s Confess. Aug. l. 1. c. 9 tit 6. Torrensis citeth an epistle of theirs to prove the Pope's supremacy. Rainoldes. Torrensis citeth it with as much sincerity, as an other t Campian. Ra●ione 4. jesuite doth the four general Counsels: both foully abusing the show of some words against the drift and meaning of their whole sentences. For the Council of Africa, though bearing a while with the Pope's claim till the Nicen canons (whereby he claimed) were searched, yet at length condemned it, as I have showed: The fourth Division. and of the four general Counsels, as the former two did enclose the Pope within his own province, or diocese at the most; so did the two later, of u In sentent. super petitione episcopor. Cypr. Eph●sus and x Can. 1. & ●●. Chalcedon, confirming the decrees and canons of the former. Hart. Nay, doubtless at y Action. 16. Chalcedon, the judges, having heard the former canons read, said that they perceived all primacy & principal honour to be due to the Pope thereby. Rainoldes. But they added that the Patriarch of Constantinople ought to be vouchsafed of the same prerogatives and primacy of honour. As z Council Chalced. can. 28. the Council also itself allotted equal prerogatives to them both: ordaining thereupon, that Constantinople should be magnified in ecclesiastical matters as well as Rome, and be next unto it. Wherein it is manifest that they meant pre-eminence of honour, not of power. For a can. 9 & 17. themselves decreed that the highest judge of ecclesiastical persons should be the Patriarch of the diocese, or of Constantinople. Whereby they gave greater power to the Patriarch of Constantinople, whom they authorised to deal in every diocese; then to the Roman Patriarch, whom they tied to his own. In so much that b Ann. Comne●a Alexiad. l. 1. the Greeks say that all dioceses of the whole world were subject to their Patriarch by the Council of Chalcedon. At least if the Council ha● an eye to power, and not to honour only, in willing them to be magnified: yet that is a disproof still of the Pope's supremacy. As you may learn by c Dist. 22. c. Reno●antes. Gratian. Who seeking to prove it by the same canon renewed in d Sext. Synod. Constantinopolit. in Tr●ll. can 36. the Council of Constantinople, hath helped it with a negative: and where the Council said, Let Constantinople 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. be magnified as well as Rome; he allegeth it, let 2 Non ●ame● magnificetur. not Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome. Hart. The Council, which that canon was renewed in, * Cop. dialog. 1. cap. 5. is untruly called the sixth general Council. For they made no canons. Rainoldes. Yet a Council made them in Constantinople, c Praefat. synod. in Trullo ad justinian. with credit of a general. And f Synod. Nicaen. ●ecund. can. 1. the next general Council did confirm them. Which thereby disproved the Pope's supremacy too. Yea, again g Synod. octau. gener. Constantinopolit. can. 17. the next defined of the Pope, as of other patriarchs: and that upon the ground of the famous Nicen. To be short, the visible Monarchy of the Church was never allowed to him by any Council, general, or provincial: until the East Churches were rend from the West, and the Italian faction did bear the sway in Counsels. Hart. What mean you to say so? whereas h council Later. sub Innocent. tert. cap. 5. the Council of Lateran under Innocentius did approve it flatly: the patriarchs of the Churches of Constantinople and jerusalem being present. Rainoldes. Not the right patriarchs, i The Pope mad● Latin Prelates Patriarches of Constantinople, against the r●●ht Greek once. Concil. Florent. Sess. vlt. I trow. Though if they had been: yet might the Italians make decrees in Lateran at Rome without them. But neither did that Council approve the Pope's Monarchy. For the Pope's Monarchy is a full and absolute sovereignty of power over the whole Church. Whereupon k Pope Paschal the second. c. Significasti. de electione. Pope Pius the second. Epist. 400. Turrecremata. Summ. de eccle. l. 3. c. 46. Saunder. de visib. Monarch. eccle. lib. 7. ●o●rensis de autorit. sum. Pont. supra Concilia. Stapleton. Princip doctr. lib. 13. cap. 15. The Schoolmen commonly, in 4. sentent. dist. 19 And almost all the Cano●istes▪ in c. Significas●i. de elect. c. Si Papa. Dist 40. the principal proctors of it teach, that not a general Council is above the Pope, but the Pope above the Council. For l Gersen & Almain tractat. de poorest. ecclesiae. Cusan us de concordant. cathol. lib. 2. cap. vlt. 〈◊〉 in c. sig●i●icasti de elect. they (saith Father m Bellarmin. praelect. Rom. con●rouer. 3. pa●t. 3. quast. 4. Robert) who hold that the Council is above the Pope; do make him like a Duke of Venice: above every magistrate and senator in several, not above the whole Senate. But he is above the whole Church absolutely, and above the general Council: so that he acknowledgeth no judge on earth above him. Now, the sovereignty of ordinary power given to the Pope over all Churches by the Council of Lateran under Innocentius, was but as it were a Dukedom of Venice: over every Church and Bishop in several, not over the whole Church. A signory of great state: but not a Pope's Monarchy. His Monarchy was neither allowed by that Council, nor by any other for many ages after: nay, it was condemned expressly by the Council of n Constance, & of o Session. 2. & 26. & 1●. Basil. The first, that allowed it, was the p Session. 11. Council of Lateran under Leo the tenth: a thousand five hundred and syxtéene years after Christ. Hart. Nay, the q Session. vlt. Council of Florence had allowed it a fourscore years before: the Greek and Latin Bishops subscribing both thereto. Rainoldes. But in such sort, that r Bell●rmin. praelect. Rom. contr. 3. p. 3. q. 4. your Roman reader, though making the most thereof for the Pope's credit, was fain● yet to say, that the Council of Florence did not define it so expressly. In truth s Concil. Florent. Sess. vlt. the Greek Bishops answered of themselves, for they might not treat thereof without consent (they said) of their whole Church, but of themselves they answered, that the Pope ought to have the same prerogatives, that he had before the time of their dissension. Which is a great presumption, that when they subscribed to more than the same, it was not of themselves. Chief sith 1 Upon their emperors importunity▪ and danger of their S●ate. they came beside so constrainedly to that which they did, and 2 Both presently there, in choosing a new Patriarch: & after when they were returned into their country. refused to obey the Pope when they had done it. But Leo the tenth with his Italian faction in Lateran defined it. From whom t Appellat. Vniversit. Parisien●is a Leone decimo ad futurum Concilium. In f●scic. rerum expetend. & fugicad. the University of Parise appealed strait to a Council; and condemned his Lateran doctrine and decree: as u Aen. Silu de g●stis Basil. Co●●il. lib 1. the Universities of L●uan, of Coolein, x ●i●tor. de Europa, cap. 22. of Vienna, and of y ●●omer. de 〈◊〉 Polonor. lib. 21. Cracovia had done before also. The consent therefore of Pastors and Doctors throughout all Christendom hath disallowed the Pope's Monarchy. And that which the Pastors and Doctors delivered was the religion of their Churches. Whereby you may see the truth of that I said, that, except the crew of the Italian faction, all Christian Churches have condemned his usurped sovereignty. Hart. Truly (I must confess) I see more probability on your side then I did. But in that you said that all Christian Churches have condemned it, and do till this day, you forgot yourself, who granted z Chapt. 8. 〈◊〉. 6. before, that by the Trent-doctrine the Pope is above the Council. For the doctrine agreed on by the Council of Trent (which you call the of Trent-doctrine) is held by Catholic Christians through the whole Church at this day. Rainoldes. I said, that all Christian Churches have condemned it, and do, except the crew of the Italian faction. Which speech agreeth well with that I said before of the Council Trent. For the a ●ess. 7. de reformat. In pro●mio. & Sess. 14 cap. 7. & Sess. 25. de rearm. ●. cap. vlt. Trent-doctrine of the Pope's supremacy, is that which the Italian faction at Trent did ouerbea●e the rest in. As b Commentar. in Epist. ad litum ca●. ●. Claudius Espencaeus, a Divine of Parise, a Doctor of your own witnesseth: saying, that Ludovicus the Cardinal of Arle did complain justly at the Council of Basil, that look what 3 〈…〉 Italicae the Italian nation liketh of, that is decreed in Counsels; & 4 〈◊〉 est illa Helena quae 〈◊〉 n●per obtinuit. this is that Helena which did prevail of late at Trent. Now, that which the Cardinal Ludovicus spoke of, was, c Aen. Silu. de gestis Basil. Concil. lib. 1. that in Counsels not only Bishops but Elders too should have voices, as of old d Act. 15.22. & 16.4. Euseb. h●st. eccles. lib. 6. cap. 42. & lib. 7. cap. 28. & 29. time they had: for 5 Si soli episcopi vocem habeant, id demum fiet quod nationi placebit Italicae, quae so●a n●tiones alias in numero episcoporum a●t superat aut aequat. if Bishops only have voices, (saith the Cardinal) then shall that be done that shall seem good to the Italian nation, which alone hath either more Bishops, or as many, as all other nations have. For every baggage-towne hath a Bishop there. And these buggage-Bishops, * There were almost two hundred Italiam Prelates there: of all other nations not a hundred. Concil. Trident. excus▪ a Plantin. in number. P●●lator. qui ad Trident. Synod. conuene●u●●. of whom there were more at the Council of Trent then of all other nations, did allow that doctrine. Though neither they perhaps allowed it in hart, but were induced by Papal means to yield unto it. For e Responsum Franci●●● Vargas de episcoporum iurisdict. & Pont Max. autorit. the answer of Vargas touching the Pope's supremacy, (made at Rome, and published, for instruction of the Council assembled then at Trent) doth show that f Pauli Manut. praes. ad Respon sum Fr. Vargas there was some sticking at the matter. And your g Gui●●iardin. hist. Ital. lib. 9 & 20. iovius. hist. sui temporis lib. 2. stories note, that the Pope is foully afraid of general Counsels, left they should hurt his State: and cometh like a bear to the stake (as they say) when he is drawn to summon them. What h As Espencaeus showeth, Comment. in epist. ad Titum. cap. 1. a do was made before he could be brought to grant that the Council of Trent should go forward? And i As Onuphrius saith, Vita Pij quart. in vit. Pont. adiect. ad Platin. while the Council lasted, he kept good rule at Rome: but broke lose when it was ended. Besides, it being ended twenty years ago, there hath been none since: neither (I believe) is like to be in haste. Where yet there should be one 6 De decennio in decennium perpetuo. every ten years, by k Concil. Constantiens. Sess. 39 c. Frequens. their own decree. All evident tokens, that the Pope himself doth think that Bishops under him like not his supremacy: and would cut it shorter if they might have power and authority to do it. Which if they would do, though being l Formaiuram. praestand. ab episcopo elect. in Pontificali Rom. part. 1. sworn to maintain it; yea, and to maintain the reservations, the provisions, & other excesses of it: is it not manifest that they disallow it, or detest it rather? Hart. Our ancestors allowed it ever since the time that by S. Gregory's means they were first converted to the faith of Christ, till King Harry's days, when heresy did root it out. Rainoldes. Our ancestors had a reverent opinion of the Pope, long after S. Gregory, for S. Gregory's sake: and honoured him above all Bishops. But when he began to reach out the paws of his supremacy over them, in giving Church-livings▪ and handling Church-causes, and executing Church-censures: they were so far from liking it, that m Polydor. virg. 〈◊〉. Ang. lib. 19 & 20. in Edovardo te●t. & Ricardo secund. they made laws against it two hundred years ago. Even in Queen Mary's time, when they restored that stoompe of his usurped power which they had rooted out under King Henry the eight: n 1. & 2. Philip. & Mariae cap. 8. they provided that he should have no more but that stoompe, & kept the former laws in force against him still. Wherefore though our ancestors gave him great pre-eminence of honour, some of power too: yet the most they gave him was but a Venice-Dukedome; his Monarchy they never allowed to this day. Which may be said likewise of other Christian Churches that honoured him on like occasion: as our neighbours of o Ad Zudovicum undecim. pro libe●t. eccles. Gall advers. Rom. aulam defensio Parisiensis curiae. France, & p Gra●●mina nationis German. & sacri Ro●an. Imperij dece●: exhibi●a Maximiliano primo. Germany. For each of them showed their mislike and hatred of the Pope's supremacy, by supplications & complaints offered to their Princes. Yea, q In conventu Litu●ice●si. France made laws against it: which might have continued; had not r Concil. Lateran. sub Leon. decim. Sess. 11. Concordata cum Rege Franciae. the Gentiles raged & broken the bands a sunder. And these, of whose judgements I have spoken hitherto, are such as yourselves do hold for Catholic Christians. The rest, Christians also, though you call them heretics, and schismatics, yet Christians, the Churches of s Chalcocond. de reb. ●ure. lib. 1. & 6. Greece and Asia, in the East; in the North, of t iovius in Moscoui●. Moscovy; in the South of u Aluarez in descript. A●th●op. cap. 77. & ●3. Aethiopia; in the West, of x Aen. Syle hist. Bohem●● 35. Boheme, y Sleidan. comm●ntar. lib. 16. Province, z ●. Fox, in the Act. and Mo●u●n lib. 7. Piedmont heretofore, & a Har●onia confes●ion●m file●, ●ect. 10. & 11. the reformed Churches that are at this day in England, Scotland, France, Germany, Flaunders, Suitzerland, and so forth throughout Europe, set less by the Pope than the former did. That I might say justly, that, except the crew of the Italian faction, (wherein I comprehend the jesuits, and their complices, men Italianate,) all Christian Churches have condemned the Pope's supremacy, & do till this day. Wherefore if the matter were to be tried by the will of men: so many thousands of them, Pastors and Doctors, Synods and Counsels, Universities and Churches, through all ages, in all countries, of all sorts, and states, might suffice to put the Pope from his supremacy. At least they might make you to blush, M. Hart, who have said in b Chapt. 7. Diuis. 7. writing, that all men did grant it him without resistance, & it was never denied him. But sith it must be tried by the word of God, and it is not written in the book of life. I conclude, that it is not a citizen of jerusalem, but a child of Babylon, which they shall be blessed who dash against the stones. And thus have I showed that the former point, on which you refuse to communicate with us in prayers and religion, aught to bring you rather to us, then draw you from us. It remaineth now that we sift the later: of the faith professed in the Church of England. Which if it be found to be the Catholic faith, as in truth it will: then is there no cause but you must needs yield, that we may go together into the house of the Lord. The tenth Chapter. 1 Princes are supreme governors of their subjects in things spiritual, and temporal: and so is the oath of their supremacy lawful. 2 The breaking of the conference off, M. Hart refusing to proceed farther in it. HART. Nay, first, The first Division. why do you take the supremacy from the Pope, and give it to the Prince who is less capable of it? Rainoldes. The supremacy, which we take from the Pope, M. Hart, we give to no mortal creature, Prince, nor other. But the Pope having seized on part of Christ's right, part of Princes, part of Bishops, part of peoples & Churches; as the chough (in Aesop) did trick up himself with the feathers of other birds: the feather, which the Romish chough had of our Princes, we have taken from him, and given it to her Majesty to whom it belonged; according to the lesson of our heavenly Master, a Mat. 22.21. give to Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and to God the things which are Gods. Hart. It is not Caesar's right to be the supreme governor of all his dominions in things spiritual and temporal. But this is the supremacy which you give our sovereign Lady Queen Elisabeth. Therefore you give the Prince more than i● the Princes. Rainoldes. To have the pre-eminence over all rulers in government of matters touching God and man within his own dominions, is to be supreme governor of all his dominions in things spiritual and temporal. But b 1. Pet. 2.13. it is 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Caesar's right 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to have the pre-eminence over all rulers in government of matters touching God and man within his own dominions. Therefore that is the Princes which we give the Prince. Hart. The Prince hath pre-eminence over all rulers within his own dominions in government of matters touching man, not God. For neither he nor any of the rulers under him may deal in them both. Rainoldes. They may. For c Rom. 13.3. ●. Pet. 2.14. the civil magistrate is ordained to punish them that do evil, and praise them that do well. But the evil to be punished, and the good to be praised, compriseth all duties, not only towards man, but towards God also. Therefore the civil magistrate is ordained to govern in duties touching God and man. Hart. The good that we must follow, and evil that we must fly, compriseth duties to them both. But that which the civil magistrate must deal with, is good and evil in things of men, not of God; in civil cases, not religion. Rainoldes. The scripture saith the contrary. For it showeth that offenders in cases of religion, d Exod. 22.20. idolaters, e Leu. 24.16. blasphemers, f Dea●. 13.5. & 18.20. false prophets, & g Numb. 15.35. profaners of holy things, are to be punished. But the punishment of these is committed to him h Rom. 13.4. who beareth not the sword in vain. Then is the civil magistrate to punish evil doers in things concerning God. Now, wherein he hath to punish, and reward, therein he hath to govern. He hath to govern therefore in things concerning God and man. Hart. Why saith the scripture then, that i Heb. ●. 1. the high Priest, (the Priest, not the Prince) is ordained for men in those things that pertain to God. Rainoldes. To do them, M. Hart: as it followeth in the text, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. For this is the peculiar duty of the Priests. Which if the Prince meddle with, as k 2. Chron. 26. ver. 16. Ozias did, who would have burnt incense, upon the altar of incense, l ver. 18. a thing enjoined to Priests only: then transgresseth he the bounds of his office, m ver. 19 and provoketh vengeance of the Lord upon him. But to provide by civil punishments, and orders, that Priests do their duty in things concerning God, nor only Priests, but people too: it is the Prince's charge; and so is he ordained to deal in things of God. For, n judg. 17. v. 5. when Michah had an idols chapel in his house, with a vestiment, and images: o ve●. 6. in those days (saith the scripture) there was no King in Israel, but every man did that which was good in his own eyes. And again, p judg. 18. ver. 1. In those days there was no King in Israel, when q ver 17. the men of Dan got that idolatrous stuff, with an r ver. 1●. idolatrous Priest, s ver. 30. and went a whoring after it. Which being said t judg. 19 ver. 1. in like sort u ver. 2. when adultery was committed, and x ver. 25. with adultery, y ver. ●6. murder: doth show, that as the subjects should have been restrained from murder, and adultery, so from idolatry too by the Prince's sword; sith all these sins reigned, z judg. 10.28. not for want of a Priest, but of a King in Israel. And this appeareth farther by the examples of the Kings: of whom a 1. King. 15. ●4▪ & 22 44. & 2. King. 12.3. & 14.4. & 15.35. some are touched for that they took not away the high places; b 2. King. 18.4. & 23. ver. 8.13. & 19 & some are commended for taking them away. Yea, King Ezekias c 2. Chron. 29. v. 5.21.27. & 30. commanding first the Levites and Priests to do their duty, d 2. Chron. 30. ver. 1.6 & 12. afterward the people to come and serve the Lord; e 2. Chron. 30. ver. 2. & 4. finally, them both to reform themselves for maintenance of religion: is said f 2. King. ●8. 6. to have cleaved to the Lord therein, and kept his commandments which lie commanded Moses. A manifest proof, that whereas g Deut. 17.19. the King is willed (by Moses) to keep all the words of the law to do them: the Lord meant thereby, that he ought to keep them, not only as a private man, but as a King, by seeking and providing that all his subjects did their duties, both to God and man. Wherefore, sith the supremacy which h The Article● agreed upon in the convocation holden at London, a●t. 37. we give our Prince in things ecclesiastical, is to deal therein as Ezekias, not Ozias; not to preach the word, minister the sacraments, celebrate the prayers, or practise discipline of the Church, but to provide that these things be done, as they ought, by them whem God hath called thereto: we give to Caesar no more than is Caesar's. The greater is your i Allen in the Apology of the English Seminaries. Chapt. 1. & 4. masters fault, and his k Saunder. d● visib. Monar. eccles. l. 5. c. 4. Stapleton. princip doctr. lib. 5. cap. 17. confederates, who reprove the oath of the Queen's supremacy, as wicked and ungodly. For every lawful Prince is the supreme governor of his own subjects in things spiritual and temporal. Wherefore to be sworn to this of her Majesty, is but to acknowledge her the lawful Prince. And l 1. Elisab. 1. the Parliament might take an oath of English men for Elisabeth our Queen, against the Pope usurping part of her right: as well m ●. King. ●1. ● as jehoiada of the men of juda for joas their King, against Athalia that usurped his State. Hart. My n Allen in his Apology. chapt. 4. Master layeth open the weakness of the grounds which you pretend for Princes right out of the Scriptures. For Caesar was an Heathen when o Mat. 22.21. Christ & his p Rom. 13.1. ●. Pet. 2.13. Apostles did teach the faithful to obey him. So that, if he were supreme governor of his subjects in things spiritual and temporal: then must he be obeyed as in temporal matters, so in spiritual too. Rainoldes. True. And therefore q Act. 25.11. Paul appealed to him, as knowing that the jews ought to have obeyed him, if he had judged with the truth. Hart. The jews r Act. 24.5. had accused Paul of sedition, as well as of heresy. And therefore his case was not spiritual merely. But if the Heathen Emperor were to be obeyed in spiritual matters: then must the Christians have sacrificed to idols. For so he did command them. Rainoldes. Why? If the heathen Emperor had commanded them to bear false witness against their neighbour, or to condemn the innocent thereby, s 1. King. 21.10. as jezabel did: must Christians have obeyed him? Hart. No: because, in things forbidden by God, that is a general rule, that t Act. 5.29. we must rather obey God then men. Rainoldes. Then as the Heathen Emperor must not be obeyed if he commanded things unjust, and yet was supreme governor (you grant) in temporal matters: so in spiritual matters might he have that sovereignty; yet not to be obeyed, if he commanded things ungodly. Hart. But Princes are so mighty that if they command them, men will obey them commonly. As when u Dan. 3. ver. 5. the King of Babylon commanded men to worship the image of gold, x ver. 12. there were but three who disobeyed him. Rainoldes. The better were those three tried: and through their trial y ver. 28. God glorified. Wherefore though Princes command not things godly, as neither honest, always: we must not therefore rob them of sovereignty therein; but help them with our z 1. Tim. 2.2. prayers, that they may govern us in godliness & honesty. Hart. Yet experience showeth, that, if they have this sovereignty, religion will be changed oft with change of rulers. As if is the turpitude of our nation through the whole world, that of four Princes who have succeeded one an other, the first kept the ancient faith, though not the Papacy: the next abolished both; the third restored both again; & both again are now abolished, by her Majesty: all within the compass of about thirty years▪ Rainoldes. So in the realm of juda, though not in so ●ew years, the father, a 2 King. 16.4. King Achaz, burnt incense in y● hi● places; the son, b 18.4. Ezekias, did abolish them; the nephew, c 21.3. Manasses, restored them again; and d 23.8. josias, his nephew, abolished them again. Yet the Prophets were not moved by these changes to deny their sovereignty in matters of religion. And better it is for us to have changed so, by means of our godly josias, and Ezekias, that noble child her majesties brother, & her Majesty: then to have continued unchanged, as our ancestors; under the Pope, as e judg. 18.30. jonathan. Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the jews to have had religion reform by two Kings, though in a few years it caused sundry alterations: as for the nation of the Romans to have kept idolatry without alteration, f Liu●. lib. 1. Dionys. Halicarn. li●. 2. under high Priests, g Symmach. ep. lib. 10. ep. 5●. for a thousand years together. Hart. Well. Whatsoever opinion you have of the Prince's supremacy: your own h Magdeburg. in p●●fat. Centur. 7. Centurie-writers control it in general; & i In Amos. c. 7. Calvin, in particular, the grant thereof to King Harrie. For they both reprove the title of head. And it is all one to be head of the Church, & to be chief governor of causes ecclesiastical. Rainoldes. Calvin reproveth not the title of head as the Protestant's granted it, but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gave, namely 1 Episcopus Vint●mensis, saith Calvin, meaning Gardener: whose levity and inconstancy (flattering the ●ing) in the 〈◊〉 of the supremacy the king himself reproved: as it is in Cardinal Poole, pro ecclesiast. vn●t. de●fens. lib. 4. Steven Gardiner: who did urge it so, as if they had meant thereby, that 2 P●●●stas penes Regem, ut statuat p●o s●o arbitrio quicquid volverit. Which Calvin openeth farther by these of Gardiner's words: licere Regi inte●●ice●re populo usum calicis in Caena▪ Quare▪ Potestas enim summa est penes●egem. the king might do things in religion according to his own will, and not ●ée them d●on according to Gods wil In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers. For they say that Princes ought not to be heads, to 3 Non habent po●estatem cudendi formulas religionum. coin forms of religion, & 4 Non gignan● novos fidei articulos. frame new points of faith, as * 1. King. 12.28. jeroboam did 5 Novos vitulos jeroboam. his calves. So what they mislike, that we grant not to Princes. What we grant to Princes, that they mislike not. Nay, k Centur 4. praesat. ad Reginam Elisabetham. the Centurie-writers do give the same supremacy to our Prince that we do: nor only to ours, l Cap. 7. through every century: yea, in that very place which the Papists cite, or rather quote, against us, Praefat. Cent. 7. but to all in general. Which m To ours, in ep. ad Regem Eduardum, & Reginam Elisabetham, prefix. comment. in Esaiam prophetam. To all, in Institut relig. Christ. lib. 4. cap. 20. Calvin also doth. Nor only he, or they: but n Harmonia confess. fidei sect. 19 the reformed Churches whole with one consent. I might say, even o Andrea's Masius, comme●t. in josuam. praefat. etc. 3. Franciscus Duarenus de sacr. eccles. minist. acben. l. 1. c. 5. your own men too. Yea, even yourself too, M. Hart. For when, upon occasion of speech that I had with you touching this point (before we did enter into conference by writing,) I brought you M. p 〈◊〉 reproof 〈◊〉. Do●●an hi● proof of certa●●e Articles in religion, 〈◊〉 co●tinue● by Alexander Nowell. Nowel's answer to Dorman, wherein he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cavils which your q Al●en in his Apology. chapped 4. Master blancheth out of Calvin and r Athanasius, Hosias', Ambrose, Gregory Nazianzene: answered all by M. Nowell, & in them, the rest. the ancient Fathers against the queens supremacy, requesting you to read it over: you told me (having read it) that you had mistaken our doctrine of that point; and that, if we gave the Prince no greater sovereignty, then M. Nowell doth, you did agree with us. Hart. Indeed I had thought (& so s Abused by such as Allen, and Stapleton, Princip. doct. l. 5. c. 17. & 18. do many take it) that you meant to give as much to the Prince by the title of the supremacy, as we do to the Pope. Where you give no more me thinks by M. Nowell, than S. t Cont. Crescon. grammat. lib. 3. cap. 15. Austin doth, who saith that Kings do serve God in this, as Kings, if in their own realm they commaunnd good things, & forbidden evil; not only concerning the civil state of men, but the religion of God also. And thus much I subscribe too. Rainoldes. * The second Division. Will you proceed then to the later point, wherein you would prove (you said) that the faith which we pro●esse in England is not the Catholic faith. Hart. I have proved it already in part. For the Catholic faith is the which we profess in the Church of Rome. You profess not thee. As the points that you have touched by the way, of scriptures, of traditions, of merits, of sacraments, of Priesthood, of the Mass, the real presence, the worship of Saints, & sundry others show. But I will confer no farther hereof, unless I have greater assurance of my life. Rainoldes. Assurance of your life to proceed in conference (by God's grace) you have. At least, as great assurance as hitherto you have had. But you should rather say, you will confer no farther unless you had better assurance of your cause. For that is the catholic faith which the Apostles did preach to all nations. The Apostles preached that which is written in the holy scriptures. Therefore, that, which is written, is the catholic faith. But the faith, which we profess, is all written. The faith which we profess then, is the Catholic faith. And this should appear as well in other points, as in those already touched, if you would sift them. The Lord grant you grace to consider of it: that whatsoever become of your life temporal, you may have assurance of eternal life, through knowledge of his holy truth. SIX CONCLUSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTURE AND THE CHURCH. Proposed, expounded, and defended, in public disputations at Oxford, by john Rainoldes. 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessary to salvation. 2 The militant Church may err, both in manners, and in doctrine. 3 The authority of the holy scripture is greater, than the authority of the Church. 4 The holy Catholic Church, which we believe, is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. 5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholic Church, nor a sound member of the Catholic Church. 6 The reformed Churches in England, Scotland, France, Germany, and other kingdoms and commonweals, have severed themselves lawfully from the Church of Rome. jerem. 51.9. We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her (o children of God,) and let us go every one into his own country. TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFUL and reverend in Christ, the heads of Colleges, and company of students, of the University of Oxford, john Rainoldes wisheth grace and peace from God the father, and from our Lord jesus Christ. WHen Anna the mother of Samuel had brought up her child, whom she had obtained of God with earnest prayers to put from herself the reproach of barrenness: she consecrated him to God before Eli the Priest, a 1. Sam. 1.28. & 2.18. that he might live and serve in the temple of the Lord. In like manner I desiring to consecrate to the temple of the Lord my Samuel, as it were, & the first child of travail that God hath given to my barrenness, have thought good to present him to God before you, fathers, and brethren, well-beloved in Christ, who either are already or shall be put in trust with the charge of the temple, to serve (if it may any way) b 2. Cor. 6.16. the temple of the living God. Perhaps a rash enterprise, & undertaken somewhat more boldly, then advisedly: chief seeing that it is so far inferior to the ripeness of Samuel. And truly I have hitherto been still of the mind, that I had leiffer the things which I had brought forth (rather as untimely fruits, then perfect children) should be kept within, then come abroad into the light; & stay in the court of the temple, then press into the temple. For I have been dealt with both oft, and earnestly, by my very friends, that I would suffer to be printed and published, as other slender exercises made rather for the fence-school (as you would say) then for the field: so chief my Orations, which, when I read the Greek lecture in our College. I made to mine audience concerning the studies of humanity and philosophy. Which yet I have refrained to do, not of envy, for I have addicted myself to wish well unto the Church & common wealth; neither of unkindness, as though I were not willing to gratify them whom I was greatly bound too: but partly through bashfulness, lest any man should think me to hunt after glory, which young men are too greedy of; partly through the knowledge of mine own weakness, who neither in respect of wit, nor age, nor learning, was ripe enough to bring forth fruits which might be set before all men to be tasted off. For though I desire to benefit all whom I may, having learned of c Epist. 9 ad Archyt. Tarent. Plato that I am not borne for myself alone, but for my country; neither can I benefit my country more by any means, then by teaching the ways how to attain to good arts, as d De divinat. lib. 2. Tully thought well: yet I feared lest I should offend in a common fault, an itching lust to write, which e Epist. lib. 2. ●p. 1. ad August. Horace did term madness in his days, what would he have done if he had lived in ours? in which there is such plenty both of passing wits, and of works excellent, that wise men may justly think it unmeet to publish any thing, that is not wrought with cunning, filled with judgement, poolished with labour, fruitful for commodity, and for use necessary. Howbeit, after that I was discharged of that profession of arts of humanity, that I might the better apply the study of divinity: what before of bashfulness and judgement I had still refrained to do in things of less importance, lest I should do it more rawly than I thought meet; the duty which I own to God and his Church hath moved me now to do that in a weighty matter, though not so ripely as I would. Which thing, undertaken both by the advise and the request of the godly, I was occasioned to think off by one Richard Bristol, an Englishman borne, abiding at Douai, professing the Romish faith: who hath set forth a poisoned work against the faith and Church of jesus Christ, the faith which we profess, the Church of which we be. That work, entitled Motives to the catholic faith, when first he set it forth, he hath abridged since into a pamphlet of Demands to be proponed of catholics to heretics, and printed it again: setting before us the same unsavoury Coleworts, twice sodden by himself, a thousand times by Popish cooks, to the great annoyance of guests, if they feed on it; great loathing, if they feed not. What a grievous injury therein be hath done to the Church of England, nor only to the whole body thereof, but to the several parts also, by raising up untrue and wicked surmises, by casting out reproachful speeches, by laying heresies to our charge: it shallbe declared (as I hear) shortly; in the mean season let the godly judge: whiles, to begin with our most gracious Queen, the daughter of godliness, the defender of the faith▪ the maintainer of peace, the nurse of the Church, the preserver of the weal public, the mother of our country▪ he doth not only f Motiu. 47. note her by the name of Pharaoh, but also g Mot. 15. & 40. putteth secretly into men's heads that she is not a lawful, but a pretenced Queen, (as h Bulla Pij quinti contr. Regin. Angl. Nicol. Saunder. de visib. Monarch. eccles. lib. 7. Laurent. Sur. in comment. ●er. ge●●. the Papists terms her:) of her majesties faithful and obedient subjects he saith that they i Motiu. 40. obey her for common humanity, not of duty: to traitors, who suffered for taking arms against her, he giveth the title of k Motiu. 15 holy and most glorious Martyrs: he slanderously reporteth that l Demand. 48. the wiser sort and principal of the Realm have proved by experience of our doings that our religion is no religion at all: that our m Motiu. 39 Bishops and Ministers are most ill and wicked, and n Motiu. 31. very few who preach, and they scarce ever preach upon the mysteries of faith: that our people o Demand. 41. the nearer they come to the preachers doctrine, the more they fall away from order and godliness, assuring yet themselves to be saved by faith only be they never so wicked: that in our p Motiu. 31. Universities, either nothing is studied; or the art of speaking only, not Divinity; or if Divinity, not all, but a few points of it: that q Demand. 41. & Motiu. 31. our country is full not of men, but of monsters, of Atheists, of Achrists, of them who believe not that a man's soul doth live more than a beasts when it is gone out of the body: finally, (not to rake out of those caves of brimstone the rest of the * Psalm. 120.4.. coals of juniper which he doth throw both generally upon whole estates, and upon many learned and godly men particularly,) that our Church, the very body of our Church, doth not foster an heresy or two, but r Demand. 38. hath revived many old heresies, s Demand. 51. beside at least a thousand more of their own invention; that it committeth not a sin or two, but t Motiu. 39 holdeth a common school of sin, wherein the scholars be most lewd, and the masters lewder; that it u Demand. 4● thinketh verily there is no salvation at all, no religion, a thing which I tremble to mention, but this cockatrice with venomous mouth hath said, hath said? nay he hath written it, and he hath written it with a pen of iron, he hath written it to last as a monument of his slander, that we think verily there is no salvation at all, none at all, and that our religion indeed is no religion. Now, these false and slanderous speeches against our Church, wherewith he hath beset his work in sundry places as with precious stones, are underlaide with reasons against our Church's faith, begotten of the same father, and sisters germane to the slanders: lose, and dull, in truth; yet in appearance sharp, and sound: which although the skilful might crush in pieces without harm, yet might they do harm by stinging the unskilful: even as a scorpion if he sting a man, doth hurt him with his sting; but if you bruise him strait and with his body bruised anoint the part stung, he doth you no hurt. Wherefore to the intent that this scorpion of Bristol, pricking with two stings, (as the worst kind of scorpions is wont,) the one of slanders, the other of cavils, might do no hurt to our men, whom in the universities or other parts of the realm he is thought to have stung: many godly men have wished him to be bruised, that, if not all the parts, yet at least so many as the grace of God (which only healeth) would recure, might therewith be anointed. And this do they seem to have wished so much the more, because some men having little skill in physiche do think that this scorpions stingings are uncurable. For both Bristol himself, as Thraso 〈◊〉 Terence, praising his own speeches, Terent in Eunucho. And now they were all afraid of me, doth proudly ask y Demand. 34. whether any of our great Masters will answer his Demands; as though we had neither shield in the Church to quench the fiery darts of Satan, nor physician in Israel to heal such as are wounded: and I know not what Gnatho, which hath cast abroad of late infamous verses in our university, hath insolently boasted that z A slanderous libel, scattered in Oxford. 1577. the Captains tremble amazed with Bristow'S lightning, as though he had astonished the Colonels of our army, & not the soldiers only. But let Bristol know that neither all do fear him, howsoever he hath touched the youths in his Pasquines': nor poor men have cause to stand in doubt of him, though he threaten (being armed with a leaver and a dishclout) that a will quell all who stand in his way, & crush them in pieces. And if the Parasites of the Pope think that to be lightning, which he hath ●●asht to burn England: sure it is such lightning as was (after the a Virgil. Acn●id. lib. 6. Poet) the lightning of Salmoneus, who shaking oft a torch, did counterfeit the thundering sounds and lightning flames of heaven. But such kinds of lightning, although they daunt the wavering Greeks and town of Elis, whose king is Salmoneus: yet they daunt not the unvincible Christians and city of the living God, whose king is the Lord. And let him who flashed it take heed, if he be wise, lest his foolish lightning (as b apol odor. de orig. Deor. lib. 1. they say it happened to the lightner Salmoneus) be revenged with true lightning of almighty God, to the utter ruin of himself, his town, and citizens. For the Church which is c joh. 16.13. lead by the holy Ghost into all truth, hath been already taught by him out of the scriptures, and shall be taught farther (through the grace of God,) what difference there is between the lightning of Bristol, and the light of jesus Christ: the lightning of Bristol, the heat whereof doth hurt the bodies which it striketh; the light of jesus Christ, the beams whereof delight the men to whom it shineth: the lightning, evil and pestilent, which blindeth them who see, and killeth them who live; the light, good and healthful, which giveth sight unto the blind, and life unto the dead. Neither are we without many godly men of excellent authority, learning, and judgement, even amongst them whom d Demand. 34. this Tertullus nameth reprochef●lly e M. Nowell in his confut. of Dormans' disproof chapped 3●. great Masters, who could have showed this long ago. howbeit they have stayed hitherto from doing it, either because they thought his follies were refuted before they were written, for that (after the manner of the Popish writers) he bringeth no new matter, but scoureth up old rusty stuff, as e M. Nowell in his confut. of Dormans' disproof chapped 3●. one of them did note long since: or because they purposed first to encounter with such as had written before, and more pithily, intending to deal after with the rest in due time, as f D. Fulke in the preface of his answer to Heskins, Sanders, & Rastell. an other signified of late that he meant: or because, the controversies being sufficiently traveled in by many, they thought that they might well cease from this labour, though the Papists ceased not from their impudency; as g jer. 28.11. jeremy having answered Hananiah once, gave him no answer when he repeated his error: or because perhaps some had no leisure from their weightier charge of feeding the Church; some listed not to strive with such a railing person; some, while they think that others have taken it in hand, do let it alone; all, either remember the counsel of the wise man, that h Prou. 26. ver. 4. thou must not always answer a fool, lest thou become like him, or if it were requisite to î vers. 5. answer him now lest he seem wise in his own conceit, they strain courtesy who should do it. For my part, lest the Philistines should vaunt any longer, as if their were no man amongst the Israelites that durst fight with Goliath, or k 1. Sam. 17.10. the Israelites be grieved with hearing the host of the living God to be so defied of an uncircumcised Philistin: I purposed through god's grace, though perhaps Goliath would have disdained me as a child, yet I purposed to set upon him in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the host of Israel. But when I had prepared myself to the battle, and chosen smooth stones out of the brook of God's word, l 2. Cor. 10.4. which are mighty through God to cast down holds, & every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God: I heard that the matter was dispatched already by m D. Fulkes Retentive against Bristow'S Motives a stout and faithful soldier of Christ, by whom many Philistines had before been conquered. Whose work (as I understood since) is at the press too, and shall be shortly published. Wherefore laying now aside my former purpose, I thought on that demand and promise of Bristol touching the scripture and the Church, wherein he doth challenge and offer us the combat. For whereas a country man of ours, under the title of an unlearned Christian, (concealing his own name,) had set forth a book touching the authority of God's word & 〈◊〉 Church: n Demand. 34. Bristol willeth him to set out his book, and put his name to it, with approbation of our Rabbins, and with privilege, and promiseth that he shall quickly see it answered. This book have I sought for, but could not fall upon it, all the copies of it (as I guess) being sold. Neither knew I how to speak with the author, who had concealed his name, I doubt not but for good cause. But to satisfy, (if not wholly, yet as far as I might) the challenge of Bristol: I have set out this little treatise of the same point, with the authors name thereto, & approbation, not of Rabbins, (whom we leave to that Synagogue whose Matt. 2●. 7. rulers love to be called Rabbi, Rabbi, Masters, & Doctors,) but of grave and learned men whom it concerneth. Which thing I hope will like him so much the better, because it compriseth not only that question touching the scripture and the Church that he desireth to be set out, but certain other also of the same kind, chief touching the Church, whereof he hath only the bare name to boast of. And I look for an answer so much the sooner, because there are now four years past, since p In the title of his book of Demands. he promised a Latin book: to which whether it be come abroad already, or to come shortly, he may join (if it please him) an answer to these Conclusions. Wherein if he think it meet for him to deal, there are three things both easy to be done, and reasonable (in my judgement) which I will request him. One is, that he will set down the text of my Conclusions wholly with his answer, (as I had determined to do with his Demands,) that the readers may see, what he confuteth, and how. An other, that he will not kick against the pricks: that he will yield to the truth and not go about to darken the clear light of the sun of righteousness with cavils and slanders. The third, that if he be ashamed to say, the truth prevails against me: yet in reproving such things as he assayeth to reprove, he will deal more sound and sincerely then D. Stapleton hath done in his Doctrinal Principles of faith, a work more full of words than truth. For to confute our doctrine, q Princ. fid. doctr. lib. 1. cap. 4. that the Church is the company of Gods elect and chosen, which we teach of the Catholic Church, and it is true: he teacheth r cap. 5. that evil men are mingled in the Church with good, the reprobate with the elect, which thing is also true in the militant Church. But true things agree with true things; ne●●her doth one truth overthrow an other. We hold▪ that the Catholic Church, which is commended to us in the Creed, is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. He answereth, that the militant Church, which is mentioned in the scriptures too, containeth neither all the elect, nor them only. And by this answer he saith he hath confuted the error and heresy of the * So he calleth us of john hus, a godly man, and holy martyr, who taught as we do concerning the Church. Hussites. But therein he dealeth like them of whom the proverb is, I asked for hooks, & they say they have no mattokes. But (to return to my purpose) I have thought good to publish my Conclusions, even in the same sort as they were set down in verses, and opened with suppositions, according to the order of public disputations of our University; the rather for this cause, that strangers might perceive the kind of our disputations; which and all things else of our University are so debased by s Mo●iu. 3●. Bristol, as if wisdom had been borne with them alone, and should die with them. Now these six Conclusions contain the chief fountains, The ●tat● and argument of the Conclusions. and as it were the very foundations of the controversies, which we have with the Church of Rome. That the light thereof will be some help, I trust, to such as are not wilfully blind, to scatter Bristow'S mists, The first conclusion and all the misty cavils of Bristow'S mates and complices. For where it is certain by manifest proof, as t In catechismo Concil. Trid. the Church of Rome itself doth acknowledge, that the whole doctrine of religion and faith (which leadeth the faithful to salvation and life by the true and right worship of God) is contained in God's word: the Papists, to establish their superstitions and errors that are against the scripture, u Ibid. in exord. catechism. divide the word of God into scripture and traditions; that what they can not find in Gods written word, they may cavil that is was ordered by God's traditionary word, so to term it. An old sleight and policy of the imps of Satan, wherewith first the Scribes and Pharises of the jews did craftily assay to beguile our Saviour Christ, as the x Matt. 15.2. Mark. 7.5. Evangelists have written: afterward the heretics y Hieron. comment. in Aggae. cap. 1. Tatian, z Iren. count haeres. lib. 3. c. 2. Valentinus, Martion, and their fellows assayed in like sort to beguile Christians, as jerom and Irenaeus show. And these are the parents of that corrupt opinion concerning traditions, which are called Apostolic as by a Maximé de Tatiani radice crescentibus. Hieron. in Agg. cap. 1. old heretics, so by b Brist. Demand. 29. Motiu. 9 new. The Roman Church embraceth the opinion as her own child: little considering that it is a bastard, not conceived by Christ, but got by theft from old heretics. Unless perhaps she had it rather by adoption from Marcus Antonius: who c Cic. in Anton. Philip. 2. when the Senate had ratified the acts of Caesar, he added to Caesar's acts what he listed, and would have it to stand as sure as if Caesar himself had enacted it. But that the opinion itself is a bastard (whosoever begot it, an heretic or an Heathen) and therefore to be shut out of d Deu. 23.2. the lords assembly, which bastards are forbidden to enter into, my first Conclusion showeth: wherein I have declared that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessary to salvation. Now, the Papists, being cast down from this bulwark, retire unto the Church, The second conclusion. and say thereof e 24. q. 1. c. a recta. in glossa Catechis. Trid. in expos. Symb. it can not err: that although their traditions, that is, their errors, did not spring from Christ, yet can they have no fault, because the Church doth hold them. f In Thalia. Herodotus reporteth, that Cambyses king of Persia, burning with wicked love of his own sister, asked the Persian judges whether he might marry her by the law of the realm. Whereto they made answer after consultation, that they found no law which permitteth a brother to marry his sister: but an other law they had found yet, which permitteth the king of Persians to do what he list. The Persian judges offended, if they feigned this law: the Persians, if they made it. But upon that answer Cambyses did join himself incestuously in marriage with his sister. The Heathens have reproved this fact of his, as wicked: and is not the Papists ●act most like unto it? The Roman Church, the Queen of Ba●ylon, hath burned with a cursed desire, not of her brother, as Cambyses of his sister, but of idols & superstitions. The advise of Bishops, the Roman judges, hath been asked, whether she might marry superstitions and idols by the law of Christ. The Bishops have caused the scriptures to be searched, and they find no law whereby the worship of idols and superstitions is permitted: but an other law they have found yet which provideth that the Church can not err in decreeing any thing. The Roman judges offended who feigned this law: the Romanists, who allow it. But upon this sentence their Church pretendeth marriage, committeth adultery, with superstitions and idols in most abominable sort. Yet g Demand. 1. & 34. Bristol layeth it in the foundation of his house, and maketh mention of it as if it were the law of Austin, yea of Christ: but impudently, and falsely; that it may well appear he neither knew what Christ said, nor what Austin meant. Wherefore to overthrow the ruinous walls both of the house, and the foundation, I have set the second Conclusion against it: which proveth manifestly that the militant Church may err not in manners only, but in doctrine too. And that being settled doth seem withal to settle & strengthen the third: wherein it is avouched, The third conclusion. that the holy scripture is of greater credit and authority than the Church. Truly, I should marvel, that it could ever come into the mind of any man to think otherwise: had not S. h 2. Thess. 2.4. Paul foretold that the man of sin, the son of perdition, should sit in the temple of God, & exalt himself above God. Which prophecy hath been fulfilled in their eyes, who have seen Antichrist preferred before Christ: & they have seen Antichrist preferred before Christ, who have seen the Church advanced above the scripture. For what is detracted from the scripture, the word of Christ; that is in deed detracted from Christ, the author of the word. And that, which in show is yielded to the Church; is attributed in truth to the Pope of Rome. Both these things are evident by i Ecclesiast. hierar. lib. 1. & 4. Albertus Pighius: whose sayings, concerning the scripture and the Church, although they be very insolent and ungodly: yet there were amongst them who lived before Pighius even of the chieftains of the Romish Church, as namely k Concil. Constant. Sess. 13. Hoc non obstance. the Fathers of the Council of Constance, and Cardinal l Epist. 2. & 3. ad Bohemos. Cusanus, who spoke more insolently. They who lived since, have kept the sense and substance of Cusanus, and Pighius, in that they give a Princely or rather a tyrannical authority to the Church for expounding the scripture, as Cardinal m Lib. de express. Dei verbo Hosius doth. But they have put fresh colours on it, and qualified as it were the rigour of the speeches: in so much that n Demand. 24. Bristol (treading the steps of o In confess. Petricou. cap. 15. & 16. & 19 Hosius,) requireth not greater authority for the Church, but seemeth well content to make it equal with the scripture. Howbeit, he speaketh so, I know not how, that I dare not avouch he is of that mind. For though he do challenge like obedience to them both, like truth, like privilege to be free from error: yet in that he addeth, that we believe the scripture because of the Church, if he come as near to the meaning of p Epist. 3. ad Bohemos. Cusanus as he doth to his words, that he think the scriptures credit and authority dependeth of the Church, and the Church imparteth authority canonical (as q Ecclesiast. hierarch. lib. 1. cap. 2. Pighius expressly saith) unto the scripture: he hath a harder forehead than I thought he had. Yet r Defence. fid. Trident. lib. 3. Andradius, the expounder and patron of the faith of Trent, speaketh much more modestly and religiously (to give him his due praise) of the authority of the scriptures. Which first he acknowledgeth that they have not from men, but from God; not from the Church, but from the holy Ghost: and then he concludeth thereof, that it is detestable to teach that either profane books may be made canonical by the Church & Bishops, or such as are certainly canonical may be refused. Of the which things to affirm the one (he saith) it is a point of notorious impudency: the other, of madness and impiety not to be suffered. O that Andradius had likewise detested the * Reu. 17.4. cup of the whores abominations in other things? Or, (sith he is dead,) I would to God that all Christians, who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her, (and who doth not mislike somewhat?) would mislike the rest of all her filthiness too: nor only be Christians almost, as Agrippa, but like both almost and altogether to Paul, The fourth conclusion as s Act. 26.29. Paul did wish to him. To the which end that I might help them forward, as much as lay in me: I have done the best I can to heal the dangerous humours of opinions, which do so annoy the taste of seely souls, that they think the heavenly bread to be poison, and abhor the sweetest food of life as woormwood. These humours, that I speak off, are perverse errors, which seduce them from the truth in that article of our creed, I believe the holy catholic Church. For some are persuaded, that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people, but to the Ministers only and Bishops of the Church: no not to the Ministers of every Church neither, but of the Church of Rome, even the Pope and Cardinals. Whom to have gotten by a certain custom to be called the church, and that the church had done, received, and ordained, that which was do on, received, and ordained by them: t In defensore pacis. part. 2. cap. 2. Marsilius Patavinus did note in * Above two hundred years ago. his age, and it is too well known unto men of years. Other some, and they of the lernedder sort, acknowledge that the Church doth signify the company of faithful men, and believers, but they will have that company to be u Francise. Turrian. de eccles. & ord. lib. 1. cap. 2. a people assembled by their own Bishop, and cleaving to the head, that is, to the Pope, lest the Papal State be any way impaired. They comprehend therefore all such within that company as do profess the faith, both the good and bad, holy and profane, godly and hypocrites. There are some also who think that by this point [to believe the holy church] the churches authority is commended to us: that we should trust, credit, and obey the church, which x Catechism. Conc. Trident. in exposit. Symb. the Council of Trent (it seemeth) would insinuate, though somewhat darkly and distrustfully. But y Demand. 44. Bristol therein doth bear the bell away. For he (the more easily to deceive English men, at least the simpler, if not all) worketh treachery with the double signification of words; expounding this article, 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Credo ecclesiam. I believe the Church, as if the meaning of it were, 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Credo ecclesiae▪ I trust the Church: between the which things there is great difference, and that very manifest, in the Greek and Latin, though in our mother tongue not so. Yet this man was created Doctor at D●way: and some do account him a man of much value. O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole, that created such a Doctor: but more wretched Papists, if they give credit to such a Doctor: who whether he be sophister or slanderer more notable, it is hard to say. A learned man among the Heathens (if I remember well) said, that physicians can not find a medicine against the biting of a slanderer. But, because z Luk. 18.27. the things are possible with God which are impossible with men: therefore upon confidence of his gracious goodness I have assayed to make one against the biting of this slanderer, and of the like, in the fourth Conclusion: wherein I have declared, (setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome, and goats mingled with sheep) that the holy Catholic Church which we believe, is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. The fifth conclusion Moreover, lest the painting of the Romish Church should make unskilful young men to be enamoured of her, when they should hear many commend her as Catholic, Apostolic, and sound in faith: to take this vizard also away from her face, & wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost, I have added the fifth Conclusion, that the Church of Rome is not the Catholic Church, nor a sound member of the Catholic church. A matter, clear in truth, but hard to be persuaded: specially to lovers: for Cupid is blind. And as he saith in a In Bucolia●t. Theocritus, The things that are not fair, seem fair to him that is in love. Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus: we by experience have found it true in Bristol. For he, being besotted with the love of the whore, is not content to say that she alone is Catholic: that error were more tolerable; at least it were an error common to him with many. But b Demand. 44. he affirmeth farther, that the Church might be & was called Apostolic, for this cause only, that we might be directed thereby as by a mark to the Church of Rome, founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul, the only Church now left of all the Churches Apostolic. Which flattering speech of this lover c catechism. Concil. Trident. in exposit. Symb. the Pope of Rome himself, the bridegroom of his Church, though doting on his bride too, yet refuseth: acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolic (by d In Symbolo Concil. Constantinopolit. the Fathers in the Creed) to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles, because they delivered once the Church's doctrine, and spread it abroad through all the world. As for them e Bristol Motiu. 12. that give the title of Catholic to the Church of Rome: they must take advisement how to clear their boldness from attaint of sacrilege, who deck an adulteress with the spoils of the spouse of Christ; or, (to think the best of the Church of Rome,) who spoil the mother to deck the daughter, and her not the best, with great wrong and injury to the rest of the sisters. For the name of Catholic doth not appertain to this or that Church, but to the Church universal, continued through all nations, ages, and provinces, from Adam unto us and to our posterity: as the f Catechism. Trid. in expo. Symb. Council of Trent and the g Andrad. defence. fid. Tried, lib. 2. Petr. a Soto▪ contr. confess. Wirtenb. cap. de ecclesia. expounders of the Council (such is the force of truth) do confess plainly. But the chiefest error that is to be abated, is theirs, who are persuaded that the Church of Rome is of right opinion and sound in points of faith: yea, so sound and right, that they think no pestilent disease may attach her, no contagion infect her, no spot of unfaithfulness any way defile her. Of the which assertion they allege the Fathers, (to omit the residue, men of base credit,) for principal patrons. And therein h Defence. fid. Trident. lib. 2. Andradius dealeth somewhat wisely. For he doth heap together witnesses without testimonies, the givers of evidence without evidence, Augustine's, jeroms, Basils', Athanases, and Chrysostoms'. But i De vi●ib. Monar. eccle. lib. 7. Sanders much more gloriously. For he hath laid on such a l●ade of testimonies, that, if the sayings should be numbered and not weighed, we must lose our suit, no remedy. But all the Fathers (whom this pety-lawier produceth as speakers for the Pope's monarchy,) do either deny that the Church of Rome did err, or that it may err: did err, as k Adverse. haeres. lib. 3. cap. 3. Saunder argumento 20, Irenaeus, In the Church of Rome that doctrine hath been kept still which was delivered by the Apostles: may err, as l. Lib. 1. epist 3. aut epist. 55▪ edit. Pam. Saunder. argum. 42. Cyprian, that the Romans are they whose faith is commended and praised by the Apostle, unto whom unfaithfulness can not have access. The former, who deny that the Church of Rome did err, speak not against us. For we do not say that it did err in Irenaeus time, but that it doth err now. He denieth that it did err: we say that it doth err: do we gainsay one another? jerusalem is called m Ps. 48. ver. 1. the city of God by the Psalmist, and n ver. 9 he is said there to be served: o Esay. 1, 21. Esay termeth it an harlot. The temple of the Lord is named p 1. King. 8.20. the house of God, the house of prayer, by Solomon: by Christ it is reported to be q Mat. 21.13. a den of thieves. Doth Esay speak against the Psalmist, or Christ against Solomon? No, but the Psalmist showeth what jerusalem was, in his time: Esay, what in his. r isaiah. 1.21. The faithful city is become an harlot: it was a faithful city, but it is become an harlot. Solomon teacheth what the house of God ought to be: Christ, what it is made. s Matt. 21.13. You have made it a den of thieves: it was not to Solomon, but you have made it. So Rome was likewise sound in the time of the Fathers, but the faithful city is become an harlot: the soundness it hath lost, it hath got a leprosy: it was the house of God, it is a den of thieves: it held t Rom. 1.8. the faith of Christ, but it is fallen from it. It had kept the doctrine still which was delivered by the Apostles, until the time of Irenaeus: but that it hath kept still until our time the doctrine which was delivered by the Apostles, doth it thereof follow? Unless perhaps the Pope's Courtiers will prove, that the whores, the Courtesans which keep their stews, are virgins, because they were virgins when they were little babes. The former Fathers then, who deny that the church of Rome did err, do not gainsay us. The later, who deny that it may err, gainsay us in deed: but they gainsay the holy Ghost too. By whose inspiration the blessed Apostle exhorting the Roman church not to lift up itself against the jews: m Rom. 11.20. Be not high minded (saith he) but fear. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold there fore the bountifulness and severity of God: severity toward them which have fallen; but toward thee, bountifulness, if thou continue in his bountifulness: or else thou shalt also be cut off. The church of Rome therefore may be cut of: if cut of, then err: if err, than unfaithfulness may have access unto it. What? and was Cyprian of an other mind? Pardon me O Cyprian: I would believe thee gladly, but that believing thee I should not believe the word of God. But whether we should rather believe, God, or man: let the Papists judge. At least, if they believe rather man than God: let them believe the reason and judgement of their own men. For n Pet●. a Soto contr. confess. Wirtenb. cap. de concilijs. Sotus, o Alfons. a Castr. advers. haeres. lib. 1. cap. 8. Alfonsus, p Confess. Petric. cap. 24. & contr. Brent. lib. 2. Hosius, q Disputatio num adversus Lutheranos Tom. 6. de authorit. & potest. univer eccles. cap. 5. Verratus, the lights of the Papists, do witness that any particular church may err. But that the church of Rome is a particular church, the same r Ibid. cap. 1. Verratus affirmeth, nor can the rest deny it. Wherefore if Cyprian did think that the church of Rome can not err: in that he must himself be condemned of error by the Papists judgement. And so, whereas all the testimonies of the Fathers are of two sorts, the one of them true, but clean beside the purpose; the other to the purpose enough, but untrue: it followeth that the sickness of the Church of Rome can find no help in any medicines of the Fathers. What have we then to do with them by whom old Rome is praised and reported s Iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Saunder. argument. 4. to gather together Christians to peace, and repair their faith, t Dionys. epist. ad Soter. apud. Euseb. l. 4 c. 22. Saunder. arg. 15. to minister relief unto the brethren & the Churches, u Episcop. Orient. in ep. ad jul. apud Sozomen. lib. 3. cap. 7. Saunder. arg. 109. to be a school of the Apostles, a mother-city of godliness, x Ignat. in inscri. ep. ad Rom. Saunder. arg. 5. a sanctified Church, and such like things a number? We have to do with new Rome, whom y Platin. Onuphr. Sabellic. Guicciardin. Theodoric. a Niem. Abbas Vrsperg. etc. her own stories, acts, and monuments do convince to be a nurse of wars, a parent of unfaithfulness, a spoiler of the brethren, a worshipper of idols, a seat of covetousness, a lady of pride, a cherisher & inflamer of lusts, of outrages, of abominations: whose most loving z A famous Friar ad Diuin●, Baptista Mantuanus. son complaineth of his mother, that a Ecloga. 9 her old fame continueth, but her goodness is gone; that her Pastors are turned into the shape of wolves, the nearer you come the filthier all things be; that b Ecloga. 5. trifles are given, gold is received, and only money reigneth there; that c De calamitat. tempor. lib. 3. the Church-goods are made to serve for scoffers, the altars for wantoness, the temples for boys abused by unnatural monsters; that d Syluar. lib. 1. Ode. vl●. the laws divine and human are denied, men and God deceived, holiness put to flight, godliness despised, renounced, and afflicted: Yet that a holy life would lead, from Rome see that ye flee: Though all things else be lawful there, yet good ye may not be. And these may seem (I hope) both weighty causes, and just, The sixth conclusion. why the reformed Churches (to come to the last Conclusion) in England, Scotland, France, Germany, & other kingdoms & common wealths, have severed themselves from the corruption of Rome. Though if this were all, that it were not lawful to lead a holy life at Rome, that we might not be good, as Mantuan affirmeth: we would have departed from the city of Rome as Mantuan adviseth us, but we would not have gone from the Church of Rome. If only small infirmities had cra●ed the health of Rome in points of faith, such as certain did in the time of the Fathers: we would have lamented▪ but tolerated it; &, taking compassion of e Gal. 6.2. men being unwarily fallen into a fault, we would have born their burdens. But sith in the fellowship of the Church of Rome it was not lawful for us, either to serve God with a holy worship, or to believe God with a holy faith, as God hath commanded; sith the Church of Rome being taken with contagious diseases & a frenzy, did put her counsellors to the fire, friends to the sword, brethren to cruel death, and stained the faith of Christ with reproaches, creatures with the lords honour, God's service with idolatry: we went away from Papists, not willingly, as from men; not unwillingly, as from heretics; and reforming our Churches by the rule of God's word, we severed them from the contagion of the Church of Rome. Wherein because nothing was done by our brethren, but that which the Apostle S. Paul, a chosen instrument of the holy Ghost, both f Act. 19.9. did, and g 1. Tim. 6.5. 1. Cor. 6.17. taught to be done, as I have proved in the Conclusion: the Lord shall judge beweene our Churches and h Demand. 1. Bristol, who condemneth them of the same schism, of which the Donatists were guilty; and he will give sentence in the last day that we have been severed from the Church of Rome by the prescript of his word, that is, lawfully. But, some man will say, you ought not to leave the fellowship of the Romans, of i Rom. 1.7. them which are at Rome, beloved of God, Saints by calling, whose faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. But, I answer, that the Romans, which now are there, be not Romans: they be carcases of Romans. It is an other Milo: his lusty arms are dead. It is an other Hector: how greatly changed from him? But you ought to obey and not resist the Pope of Rome, 1 Optimus most good in grace, 2 Maximus as the Papists call him. most great in power, the vicar of Christ, k 1. Pe●. 5.3. the successor of Peter. But, that l Andrad. defen. fid. ●rid. lib. 1. we must resist him, if he command things unjust and pernicious yea, that m Gent. ●eruet. de reparand. eccles. discipline. it is the duty of Princes to resist him in unlawful things: the Papists themselves teach. But Christians ought to n Ephes. 4.3. keep unity of spirit in the bond of peace: and o Cicer. Philip. 13. the name of peace is sweeete, the thing itself both pleasant and healthful. But through unity of spirit we ought to grow together p Ephes. 4.13. into the unity of of faith: and to q Philip. 4.2. be all of one mind, but in the Lord. If peace should be made with the Pope and Papists, it would be like r Cicer. Philipp. 12. the peace with Antony and his adherents; that is, not a peace, s Eurip. Iphig●. in Aul●d. but an agreement of slavery to them, nay, of impiety. Wherefore, as Agamemnon (in a Greek Poet) did answer his brother Menelaus of whom he was requested to show himself a brother by giving his consent to a wicked act: so do I answer my brother requesting me to join with him in fellowship of the Church of Rome, whose faith is unholy, whose service is ungodly; * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. My wits I would enjoy with thee: But mad with thee I would not be. And here an end of my preface. Only this remaineth, that I desire heartily and beseech all Christians, who shall take pains in reading hereof, that they will read, weigh, and interpret all things with a Christian mind; lay aside the prejudice of their own opinions; t 1. joh. 4.1. examine the spirits, whether they be of God or no; seek to find the truth, and love it being found; advertise me if they think I have miss in any thing; bear with my briefness, because I was constrained to shut up much in few words: look how faithful and diligent I have been in opening and proving the Conclusions, whereof God is my witness who will reu●ale the secrets of thoughts; so moderate and indifferent let them show themselves in censuring and judging of that which they shall read, as before the Lord who shall be judge of judges. Finally, let them follow the godly people of Beroea, who (when Paul u Act. 17.11. preached) received the word with all readiness of mind, and daily searched the scriptures whether those things were so: & not the froward Luciferians, x Hieron. in dialog. adversus Lucif. c. 9 of whom he confesseth who best knew the manners of his own companions, that they might be convinced more easily then persuaded. As for you, my fathers and brethren well-beloved, with remembrance of whom I have consecrated my labour (such as it is) to the Church of God: I pray you and beseech you by our Lord jesus Christ, who hath redeemed us with his precious blood and sanctified us to himself, that you will strive by all means to advance the glory of God, to cherish the seeds of godliness, to help forward the Church's safety, to nourish fruitful plants, to make the Universities praise to be increased, I mean y Rom. 2.29. the praise which is, not of men, but of God. Confute you the ill speeches of Bristol, by your deeds: and show, by your works, that the crimes wherewith he chargeth us are slanders. Bestow ye well the good opportunity of time in study of good arts, by hearing, reading, disputing, meditating, speaking, and writing. Do ye the work of the Lord with joint desire, and will, and travail: z Eph. 4.4. one body, one spirit, a jer. 32.39. one hart, one way. Stir up exercise of learning, decayed (I had almost said,) but I hope better. Destroy those wanton lusts that draw men from study; idleness, a sweet evil; delicacy, the bait of Venus; the riot of feasts, the vanity of apparel, unhonest pastimes, unseasonable drinkinges, the plagues of stageplayers, the sights and shows of theatres. Last of all, to conclude with the Apostles words, b Phil. 4.8. whatsoever things are true, what soever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are worthy love, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think ye on these things. If there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, brethren, think ye on these things. The God of might and mercy lighten us all with the grace of his holy spirit: that the heads of Colleges may be present to govern, and govern to benefit the company committed to them, c 1. Sam. 19 ver. 20. as Samuel was wont: that the members of Colleges may learn under Samuel to prophecy, by speaking of, and setting forth the praise of God, as the prophets did: that young men, who study the arts of humanity, may in other things be unlike to Saul, yet like to d ver. 2●. Saul among the prophets: that Colleges themselves and all our companies may be assemblies, not of prophets only, but of such as prophecy and follow the lessons of the prophets, to the honour of God, the comfort of the godly, and our own salvation, through jesus Christ our Lord. Far ye well. From Corpus Christi College. The 2. of February. 1580. Yours in Christ jesus, john Rainoldes. CONCLUSIONS HANDLED AT THE ACT▪ IN S. MARY'S CHURCH. THE XIII. O● JULY. 1579. 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessary to salvation. WHen Moses went by Sinai mount toward the holy land: From Gods own mouth the law he wrote, the Lord did guide his hand. The Prophet's next with sacred ●en did bold that heavenly ●●ce: Whom the almighty from above endued with his grace▪ The wisdom of his father high, the son of virgin pure, Anointed with the spirit of God men's sinful souls to cure, The word of the eternal Lord, with flesh of man clad, Brought them the treasures rich of life, of peace the tidings glad. Th' Apostles with this doctrine sweet of Christ their master fed, By preaching first by writing then to nations all if spread. And these books hath the holy Ghost set forth for mortal wights. That we in course of faith and life might follow them as lights. avant all ye, who brainsick toys and fancies vain defend: Who on human traditions and Fathers saws depend. The holy written word of God doth show the perfect way, Whereby from death to life arise, from curse to bliss we may. 2 The militant Church may err, both in manners, and in doctrine. TO warfare every one doth go that serveth Christ in field: To warfare all their names are billed who do God's armour wield. And dost thou man in warfare serve, and art thou free from blows? And may no dart thy body pierce, assaulted by the foes? The city of jerusalem with holy Church was dight: That holy Church kept not her course at all assays aright. Corinthus godly was, and pure; Philippi shone full bright: The faith of Thessalonians was spread in glorious plight. Corinthus pure is stained now; Philippi lies defaced: Your praise, O Thessalonians, is by the Turk disgraced. And thou O Rome, the Queen of pride, which swellest on mountains seven Thy hart is pierced with deadly wound, thou fallest to hell from heaven. While that the Church doth make abode on earth in seats of clay, Am I deceived? or may she feel the dint of errors sway? 3 The holy scripture is of greater authority than the Church. THe godless rout inflamed with lust of holding sceptre hie, Doth lift the stately throne of Rome unto the golden sky▪ Unto the sky▪ that pride were ●inall, nay fa●re above the sky: Subduing Christ his sceptre great to Romish royalty. Men say that Giants did attempt the heavenly powers to quell. What? do they raise new wars again from grisly gulf of hell? The holy church may for itself claim worthy gifts of right. 'tis great, I grant: but less, I trust, then is the Lord of might. Let mortal things give place to God, let men to Christ accord, The wife to man, the earth to heaven, the subject to the Lord. ALthough I am not ignorant (right worshipful audience) that Cato the grave Censor reproved a certain Roman▪ who taking upon him to write a story in Greek had rather crave pardon of his fault in doing it, then keep himself clear from committing that fault: yet so it hath happened to me at this present, yielding shall I say thereto, or refusing it, surely some what against my will, but so it hath happened, that I who could not choose but commit a fault, am forced to request you to pardon my fault. For both the weakness of my voice, because it is not able to fill the largeness of this place, will discontent perhaps them who hear me not: and the unripeness of my ability, which I fear me will not answer the solemnity of this assembly in handling those things that are to be debated, will of likelihood be reproved by them who hear me. How much the more earnestly I am to request, by word, you that hear me; by will, the rest who hear me not: that either you will be no censors at all, or else be more favourable censors than Cato; lest either you judge me to have dealt unwisely who did not keep myself from fault; or impudent, who first commit it▪ and then request you not to blame it. Neither do I doubt but I shall find defence, for the weakness of my voice, in your friendly courtesy before whom I speak: for the unripenes of my ability, in the goodness of the cause which I have to speak off. For, that your courtesy will condemn me of that fault, which I could not eschew, I need not to fear. And the goodness of the cause hath in it such evident and clear light of truth, that (I do not doubt) it will defend itself though no man plead for it. Wherein I hope also that you even yourselves either do already or will agree with me: if you shall hear me open as briefly as I may the meaning of the three Conclusions that I h●ld, the perfection of the scripture, the infirmity of the Church, the authority of them both. For, as for the praise and commendation of Divinity, whereof the beginning is from heaven; the majesty, divine; the office, to be an instrument of salvation to mankind; which was ordained by God the father, revealed by jesus Christ, registered in writing by the holy Ghost: I cannot speak thereof as I would, according to the worthiness of the thing; as I may, according to my power, I ought not. In the one, I hope, you approve my good will: in the other, I beseech you, take my judgement in good part. For I do● not say, by way of amplification colourably, that I refrain therefore from the praising of it, because my woundering at it doth dazzle (like the brightness of the sunbeams) the eyes of my mind: as a Cic. pro Dei●tar. Tully feigneth of Caesar that the people showed not their good will toward him by joyful clapping of their hands, because that they being amazed with wondering at him could not stir themselves. But as b Esay. 6. ●. the prophet Esay witnesseth of God, that, when he beheld his majesty, he was dismayed, because he was a man of polluted lips, unworthy to behold the king and Lord of hosts: so may I protest from my hart in truth, that, when I consider the highness of God's word, I hold my peace as amazed, because I am a man of polluted lips, unfit to touch the nobleness of a thing so worthy. Wherefore I willingly leave these juy-garlands to be hanged up by them, who vent the wine of Philosophy, Physic, and Law: which arts very profitable, but for the life that fadeth; excellent, but humane; commendable, but transitory; beautiful, but brittle, I doubt not but already the learning and eloquence of men well seen therein hath made you well to like of in this exercise of disputations. Now I take a greater enterprise in hand, for the valour of the thing which I am to deal with: though neither with better wit, nor deeper judgement than they whom I follow in the course of dealing. Liu. lib. 21. Livy reporteth that Annibal, having purposed to fight●with the Romans, did cause certain couples of captives to fight one with an other hand to hand, before he set his soldiers in battle array: that his Carthaginians might, by that pastime of the captives combat, address themselves with better consideration and courage to the serious and set battle. In like sort there have been brought before you (gentle audience) to the combat sundry opinions of sundry arts, as it were couples of captives: which whether they live or die, be so or not so, it skilleth not greatly; the state of the realm is not ventured upon it. But now from that sporting conflict of light matters there cometh to the battle for earnest trial of things of weight, host against host, truth against falsehood, religion against error: wherein if we serve out of the right way, it is the death not of captives, but of Carthaginians; not opinions of men, but the truth of God is hazarded; not life, not health, not wealth and possessions, but the inheritance of heaven and salvation cometh into controversy. Lend me therefore (I pray you) the presence of your minds, and patience of your ears, to that which shall be spoken: remembering that we have, not toys, as on a stage, but serious things in hand. And because we handle the matters of the Lord, I pray him to sanctify with his holy spirit our tongues, and your ears, and the minds of all: that neither we dispute to any other end then to bring forth the truth into light by conference of reasons; neither you in hearing have any other mind then to believe the truth when it shallbe brought forth, and proved. To begin therefore with the first Conclusion, The first conclusion. and so run over the rest briefly: the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessary to salvation. God the father of eternal goodness and mercy did choose of his free and singular favour (before the foundations of the world were laid) a great number of men, whom he would endue with everlasting life, and make them heirs of heavenly glory. Now, that the chosen might come to this inheritance: they were to be made the children of God by adoption through jesus Christ. For this hath ever been the only way to salvation. In consideration whereof, the holy ghost, speaking of the company of such as God hath chosen, termeth them d Rom. 8. ver. 16. sometime the children of God, by adoption, not by nature, yet c ver. 17. fellow heirs with Christ; sometime f Reu. 19.7. the wife of the Lamb, which is endowed with all the wealth of her husband; some time g Eph. 5.23. the body of Christ, by the power and virtue of whom as of a head they are governed, and moved; sometime h Reu. 22.2. the citizens of heaven, appointed to be inhabitants of the new jerusalem; finally, Christ himself (to omit the rest) doth call them his Church, i Mat. 16. 1●. which the gates of hell shall not prevail against. This Church then, even the company of the elect and chosen, the children of God, the wife of the Lamb, the body of Christ, the citizens of heaven, that is to say, the holy Catholic Church; as it is chosen and ordained by God to life everlasting: so hath it been always taught by his word the way of salvation, whereby it might come to the possession of that life. His word being uttered in old time sundry ways, was published at length in writing. And so it came to pass that the holy writings of God did teach the Church such things as must be known for the obtaining of salvation. For who could reveal the way to obtain the inheritance of the kingdom of God, but God alone? And he revealed it to his Church, as first without writing, in such sort as seemed best to his wisdom; so afterward in writing, by the hand of his servants inspired with the holy Ghost: without writing, to Adam, and from Adam's time till Moses; in writing, to Moses and from Moses forward till the end of the world. Wherefore in these writings given out by the holy Ghost, and penned by the servants of God, which writings S. k 2. Tim. 3.26. Paul calleth scripture, by an excellency, as you would say the writings which surpass all others: the way of salvation whereby we come to heaven, the light of our souls which shineth in this world's darkness, the food of life which nourisheth us to grow in Christ, is delivered to the Church. For cléerer proof whereof, let us divide the Church into the old and the new: the old, before Christ; the new, since Christ was borne. The Prophets taught the old Church the way of salvation: the Apostles with the Prophets together teach the new more plenteously and fully. The doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles is comprised in the holy scripture. The scripture therefore teacheth the Church whatsoever is behoveful to salvation. For the Church is the company of the elect and chosen. Now they who are elect, are l Eph. 2. ver. 19 of the household of God: and they of his household m ver. 20. are built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. But, this foundation of the Apostles and Prophets is the doctrine touching Christ which they preached to the Church. And that doctrine which they preached is enroled in scripture. Wherefore the scripture teacheth the Church all things that for salvation are requisite to be known. Moses (to begin with the first of the Prophets) having published the law of God to the Israelites: n Deut. 4.2. & 12.32. Give ear (saith he) O Israel to the ordinances which I teach. Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, nor shall you take from it: but whatsoever I command you, that shall ye observe to do, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God. Now the Israelites were to labour for the obtaining of salvation. But they might do nothing which was not prescribed by the law of God. Therefore the written law of God did deliver whatsoever was needful for the salvation of the Israelites. And there is no doubt but the Israelites were the Church. The law than did teach whatsoever was needful for the salvation of the Church. The Prophets, who followed, were expounders of the law: that as they were inspired with the same spirit by which Moses wrote, so they neither added any thing to his law, nor took from it; only they unfolded it to the edifying of the Church, as it seemed best to the holy ghost. I let pass David: in whom there are not many more o Ch●e●ly the 19 & 119. Psal. Psalms than there are testimonies of the sufficiency of the law. Esay examineth both the faith and life of the Priests and people, by p isaiah 1.22. & 8.20. the law and testimony. Idolaters are condemned by the Lord in jeremy, for doing in their sacrifices q jer. 19.5. things which he commanded not. In Malachi the last Prophet God willeth his people to r Mal. 4 4. remember the law of Moses: that he as a schoolmaster may lead them to Christ, whose forerunner should be Elias. But these things could not have been spoken by God or the servants of God, unless the law of Moses had showed the whole and perfect way of salvation. The law of Moses therefore did wholly and perfectly instruct the Church therein. Which if the law of Moses did perform alone: much more all the Prophets together with Moses. How may it then be doubted, but the old Church was taught out of the scriptures the way of salvation wholly and perfectly? S. john (to pass over from the Prophets to the Apostles) after that the sun of righteousness was risen, not to abolish the law, but to fulfil it, and to bring a brighter and cléerer light into the world, declareth in the gospel how jesus Christ our Saviour, doing the office of our sovereign Prophet, Priest, and King, accomplished our salvation, by teaching, by dying, by rising from the dead. Our salvation then is fully wrought by Christ. But is it fully written by S. john? Let us hear himself speak. s john 20.31. These things (saith he) are written, that ye may believe that jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that in believing ye may have life through his name. In which words the sum and end of the gospel is set down by john: the sum, that we may believe that jesus is the Christ, * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the Christ, that is, the sovereign Priest, Prophet, and King, the Saviour of men: the end, that we believing in Christ, the son of God, may through him have life, even that which alone is called life rightly, to wit, eternal life. Which things being so, as the Evangelist himself teacheth: it must needs be granted, that those things which are written in the gospel are sufficient for us, both to the way of life, and to life. As much then as sufficeth to faith and salvation, so much is written in the gospel. For if the things which are written had not been sufficient to faith, and salvation, there were t joh. ●0. 30. & 1●. 25. more things, which might have been written, so many as the world could not have contained. But these were omitted by the spirit of God, because the other were enough for his purpose. For he giveth this reason why more were not written: these things are written that ye may believe, and in believing may have life. There is contained therefore in S. john's gospel so much as is sufficient to faith and salvation. Then if S. john's gospel alone have sufficient: how plentifully hath Christ provided for his Church, as a most bountiful Lord for his household, to which he hath given so many Apostles, and Evangelists, witnesses and expounders of the same doctrine? Wherefore the scripture doth not only teach the Church, but also amply and plentifully teach it, all things behoveful to salvation. For although the substance of the Christian faith be single and the same, wherewith as with meat the servants of God are fed to life eternal: yet, as the ages of the servants differ, and in ages different their cases differ too; so was it meet there should be sundry sorts and ways to divide that meat, and as it were to season it, for each one his part as it might best agree with him. Whereof that we might have a true & lively pattern set forth by Christ's own spirit in the word of life for the feeding of the faithful: therefore he gave sundry workmen (so to term them) and writers of his faith, that although they delivered all the same food, yet they did not dress it all in one sort. And so it cometh to pass, that, in those writers of the faith of Christ, both the unity of doctrine in the diversity of delivering yieldeth a sweet taste in the spiritual mouth of the godly mind; and the manifold use ministereth wholesome nourishment to every man's stomach; & the evident plainness in the grounds of faith maketh that even they who are of deintiest mouths can not refuse it for the toughness; and the hidden wisdom in the secrets of scripture both trieth the strongest, and satisfieth them who are sharpest set; and (to say that in a word which no words can express enough) the infinite treasures bring infinite fruits to the faithful, to procure them a blessedness that is exceeding great and infinite. Wherefore it is a thing so clear, and so sure, that those secretaries of the holy Ghost (joined together) do open to the Church in the holy scriptures all things behoveful to salvation: that he, who knoweth it not, may be justly counted ignorant; he who acknowledgeth it not, lewd; he who dissembleth it, unthankful; he who denieth it, more than wicked. For what can there be in clearness more evident, or in poise more weighty, or in strength more sound, or in truth more certain, than that general principle which S. Paul delivereth, not as Moses, of the law; not as john, of the gospel; but of the whole scripture and holy writ, to Timothee: u 2. Tim. 3.16. The whole scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teach, to improve, to correct, to instruct in righteousness, that the man of God may be furnished, thoroughly furnished to every good work. Thus, if you demand of what authority scripture is, it came from God by inspiration; if you regard what use it hath, it teacheth, improveth, correcteth, instructeth; if you would see to what end, it is, that the man of God may be furnished. Our duty in Christ jesus, is x Gal. 5. ●. faith working by love. Faith embraceth sound doctrine: love requireth a godly life. Soundness of doctrine is held, if true things be taught, and false refuted. Godliness of life is kept, if we fly from evil, and follow good. But the holy scripture teacheth the truth; improveth error; correcteth iniquity; instructeth to righteousness: as it appeareth by the Apostles words. Therefore it setteth forth a man's whole duty in Christ jesus: that is, (as I suppose,) so much as sufficeth to salvation. For it is not only profitable to these things, (as some do mince the matter,) but sufficient too: in so much that it is y 2. Tim. 3.15. able to make a man wise to salvation through faith, and to furnish him. Yea, to furnish what manner of man? the man of God: that is, the lords interpreter, the Minister of the word, the teacher of the Church, the Pastor of the flock, even z 1. Tim. 6. 1●. Timothee himself: much more the flock of the faithful, in whom so great furniture of wisdom is not necessary. Howbeit the Apostle neither so contented with saying, that the man of God may be furnished: addeth (to beat the absolute perfection of the scripture into our minds and memories, (with as many reasons, as he useth words,) that the man of God may be 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. furnished, 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. thoroughly furnished, to every good work. Whereupon it followeth that there is nothing at all that can be wished for, either to soundness and sincerity of faith, or to integrity and godliness of life, that is, to man's perfection, and the way of salvation: which the scripture given by inspiration of God doth not teach the faithful servants of Christ. It is the judgement therefore of the holy Ghost, whose sentence I defend, as I am bound by duty: that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessary to salvation. Here, if some perhaps desire the testimonies of the Fathers, though, to what purpose, sith ye have heard the Father of Fathers? notwithstanding, if any would hear the scholars judgement when he hath heard the masters, he shall hear the judgement not of this or that man of whom he might doubt, but of the whole Church and of all the Saints. For they, with one agreement and general consent, have termed the books of scripture, Canonical, of the word Canon, which signifieth a rule: because they contain a worthy rule and squire of religion, faith, and godliness, according whereunto the building of the house of God must be fitted. Which opinion touching the Canon of the scripture, (allowed by a Defence. ●id. Tilden. lib. 3. Andradius himself the chiefest patron of the Popish faith) hath been so well liked of the ancient Doctors: that b De doctr. Chri●tian. lib. 2. c. 9 Austin saith, that all things concerning faith and manners are contained in those, I say not which are, but which are plain in scripture: c In 2. ad Thessalon. hom. 3. Chrysostom avoucheth in the like manner, that every thing is clear and evident by the scriptures; and whatsoever things are necessary, they are manifest: d Contr. Hermogen. Tertullian pronounceth that himself honoureth the fullness of the scriptures; and denounceth a woe to Hermogenes the heretic, if he take aught from those things which are written, or add to them: e Contr. Heluidium. jerom, in the controversy which he had with helvidius, doth turn the reason in and out, we believe it because we read it, we believe it not because we read it not: f In evang. joh. lib. 12. cap. 68 cyril observeth, that such of the things done by Christ are written, as the writers thought to be sufficient for manners and doctrine: g Serm. de Fid. Basil affirmeth, that it is a manifest revolting from the faith, either to disallow any thing that is written, or to bring in any thing that is not written: to be short, all the Fathers (unless it were when some humane infirmity overtook them) agree with one mind, and say with one voice, that all things which God hath willed us to believe and do, are comprehended in the scriptures. For, as touching that some of them sometimes, as h De sanc. spir. cap 29. Basil and i Contr. ●aer. lib. 2. tom. 1. haer. 61. Epiphanius, assaying all sorts of helps against heretics, will have certain things to be contained in traditions, whereto by the judgement of scripture itself there must no less credit be given then to scripture: I take not upon me to control them, but let the Church judge, whether they considered with advise enough those sayings of S. Paul, by which they were induced perhaps to this opinion, at least they seek to prove it. For Epiphanius groundeth upon these words of his to the Corinthians: k 1. Cor 11.2. as I delivered to you; and, I have delivered so in the Churches; and, l 1. Cor. 15.1. if ye keep it, except ye have believed in vain. And Basil gathereth it to be Apostolic doctrine, (that we must hold fast unwritten traditions,) by his words to the Thessalonians: m 2. Thes. 2.15. hold the traditions which ye have been taught either by word or by our epistle. Now if S. Paul meant in both these places by [delivered] and [traditions] his doctrine, delivered to them by word of mouth, yet comprised in scripture too: then must it be granted that they were deceived who thought that unwritten traditions were approved by S. Paul's traditions. But the former point is true, that he meant so. Therefore the later also is true which followeth of it. For he doth expound it himself, to the Corinthians, considering that n 1. Cor. ●. 23. 〈◊〉 2.13. & 7.17. & 11.23. & 14.40.▪ and so forth in the rest of the epistle. he writeth the sum of those things which he had delivered; and, what o 1. Cor. 11. 2●. he delivered, that he received (he saith) of the Lord; and p Luk. 22.19. that which he received of the Lord, is written; and in plain terms q 1. Cor. 15.3. he witnesseth himself to have delivered that unto them, which he had received according to the scriptures, to weet, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried and that he rose the third day according to the scriptures. As for the Thessalonians, what the things were, which he delivered unto them by word, it is showed in the r Act. 17.2. acts of the Apostles: where we read that Paul being come to Thessalonica, taught the jews out of the scriptures, that it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead, and that this jesus whom (said he) I preach to you, is the Christ. In which words it is opened both what Paul delivered to the Thessalonians by word, and from whence: from whence? out of the scriptures: what? that it behoved Christ to suffer, and rise again, and that jesus is * As before, joh. 20.31. the Christ. The tradition therefore, which Paul doth exhort the Thessalonians to hold, is the tradition of the gospel, as s Amb. in 2. ad Thes. cap. 2. Ambrose calleth it very well. Which the reason also doth prove, that Ambrose noteth, that Paul doth there gather: t 2. Thess. 2. ver. 14. God hath raised you to salvation by our gospel; u ver. 15. therefore stand ye fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught either by word or by our epistle: as if he should say, see therefore that ye stand steadfast in the gospel, which I, as well by word of mouth as by writing, have delivered to you. Thus S. Paul's traditions are the gospel delivered. And the gospel (I hope) is written. Therefore S. Paul's traditions are written. But the salvation of the Thessalonians was contained in the traditions which S. Paul had taught them by word & by epistle. The scripture than informeth the Church of so much as is necessary to salvation. Wherefore avant heretics out of the school of Christ, ye Valentinians, Marcionites, and Gnostikes: who (as x Adverse. haer. lib. 3. c. 2. Irenaeus reporteth) did deny that the truth may be learned out of the holy scriptures by them who know not tradition. avant jews, by whom the Cabala of the Rabbins; avant Montanists by whom the new Comforter; avant Anabaptists, by whom revelations; avant ye y Concil. ●rid. Sess. 4. Decr. 1. Trent-councell-fathers' and ye papists, by whom traditions beside scripture are falsely reputed to be necessary to salvation. Our salvation is Christ; the way to salvation, faith; the guide of the way, scripture: whereof the light and lantern directeth our steps, the food nourisheth our souls, the preservative keepeth us from diseases, the sword killeth our enemies, the plaster healeth our wounds, in a word the safe conduit doth bring us unto eternal life. The second conclusion. The second Conclusion, which I am next to treat of, doth undertake to show that the militant Church may err both in manners and in doctrine. In manners, against the Puritans: Aug●st. de haeres. ad Quod●ultd. cap. 33. who, challenging to themselves a singular kind of holiness, denied repentance to such as had fallen. In doctrine, against the Papists: a Catechis. Concil. Trid. in 〈…〉. who for a defence and shield of their errors hold forth this bug to fright us out of our wits, The Church can not err. Here, that the truth may be the better opened, the name of Church must be distinguished. For, as Thrasylaus, (a frantic man amongst the Greeks) b Athenaeus Dipnosophist. lib. 12. whensoever he saw any ships arrive into the haven at Athens, thought them all his own, and took an inventory of their wares, and met them with great joy: after the like manner certain frantic Romanists, c Albert. Pigh. in eccles. hierar. Bristol in his Motives and Demands. wheresoever they see the name of the Church in the holy scripture, they take it to be theirs, and book the treasures of it, and boast thereof as of their own, crying, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. But to remove these frantic men out of the haven, and deliver the merchants each their own ships, & set the Church itself in possession of the Church, the name of the * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Church in Greek (the native language of the new testament) cometh from a verb which signifieth to call out, thereby to note a company called out, as you would say. So that the Church of Christ be tokeneth a company called out from amongst the multitude of other men to life everlasting through faith in Christ jesus. But they who are called out of the refuse and filth of mankind to this state and honour, are not of one sort all. For same of them are called effectually, and do come: some, that are called, do not yield themselves obedient to the calling. They whom God hath chosen, are called, and do come: they, who being called come not, are not chosen. That speech of our Saviour Christ doth touch them both: d Mat. 20.16. many are called, but few are chosen. The many, that are called, are named the Church: but (to speak distinctly for instructions sake) the visible Church: because we see the companies of men which are called to the faith of Christ, which profess that they would enjoy eternal life. The few, that are chosen, are named the church also, but the church invisible: not for that we see not those whom God hath chosen, but because we can not discern by sight who be the chosen; only the Lord knoweth who are his. Now, of this Church which we call invisible, part is in present possession of heavenly glory, part not having yet attained thereunto abideth on the earth. That part which is entered into the joy of their Lord, is commonly termed the triumphant Church: the other which lieth in camp and waiteth for the victory, is called the Church militant. But as it falleth out in camps of worldly warfare, that either for covetousness, or fear, or favour, there are with faithful soldiers such as are unfaithful, some who never mind to come into the field, some who will betray their fellows to their foes, some ready to stir up the soldiers to mutinies, some perhaps that traitorously will set upon their own captain: so the militant church, which hath none but faithful soldiers of Christ in that respect that it is matched with the Church triumphant, yet, while it abideth in the camp of warfare, there hang about it slippery merchants; who pretend that they also are of Christ's soldiers, but under soldiers coats they bear the hearts of enemies, being such, as they of whom In Cantic. ●ermon. 33. Bernard saith, They are in Christ's livery, but they do service unto Antichrist. Sith therefore to discern the faithful soldiers from unfaithful it belongeth to him alone who shall one day sever the sheep from the goats: we, measuring a soldier by the profession that he maketh, & oath that bindeth him to warfare, call that the militant Church which is enrolled & billed to serve under Christ, part whereof doth faithfully sight the Lords battles, part making show to serve him do fight the battles of the devil. And this is the militant Church which I mean in the point proposed: the militant Church may err both in manners and in doctrine. To the ripping up whereof we must observe, that it is proper to God alone by nature, to be holy, true, perfect, and free from errors: as contrariwise man by nature is unclean, a liar, unperfit, prone to deceive and be deceived. For f Rom. 3.4. every man is a liar: God alone is true. And g Mark. 10.18. none is good but God: he is nought therefore that is a mere man. But of grace God bestoweth upon man the gift of perfection, holiness, and truth, as it were a beam of the sun shining into a house of clay, to give us light and warmth. Howbeit this beam, though the more the sun of righteousness ascendeth and cometh daily nearer us, the greater light and warmth it yieldeth: nevertheless it shall not overshine us with full light of truth, and warmth of holiness, until we be taken out of our houses of clay, and go into the open heaven unto God. The militant Church hath the beams of the sun, but as in a house, not in the open heaven: sometimes it is shadowed and made dim with darkness, sometimes it waxeth faint through cold. The triumphant Church hath the sun itself, not within doors, but a broad; not on earth, but in heaven: where neither any darkness doth hinder the light, nor any cold abate the warmth. Thus it is made proper to the Church triumphant, to be without all spot: as the spouse is told (in the song of Solomon) by her well-beloved, speaking thus unto her; h Cant. 4.7. thou being all fair, my love, and no spot in thee, shalt come with me from Lebanon, O spouse, with me from Lebanon. For thereby we learn that as soon as the Church being fully cleansed from spot of all errors shall have attained that excellent fairness and perfection, whereto she is fined by little and little in this life: she is taken out of Lebanon, (as you would say, the forest) of this world, and joined to her bridegroom in that blessed marriage, to enjoy eternal glory with God. But that excellent fairness she attaineth not, while she warfareth on the earth. The militant Church therefore is not fully clean from spot of all errors. She shall be i Eph. 5.2.7. a Church not having spot or wrinkle when she shall be glorious: as Paul declareth to the Ephesians. Wherefore sith to promise that gloriousness in this life, is, to sound the triumph before the conquest be gotten: it followeth that the Church shall have spot and wrinkle so long as she doth live in warfare. But, over and beside all this, because the Church, while it is in warfare, hath unfaithful soldiers in it amongst the faithful, who as they are unlike either to other, so is their case unlike too: therefore as the men that are in the Church, so the kinds of errors must be discerned and distinguished, that it may the better appear to what errors what part of the Church is subject. To err then is to serve and turn out of the way, which God by the word of life (the holy scripture) hath willed us to walk in. Which way sith it containeth soundness of doctrine, and godliness of manners, as I have showed before: thereupon it followeth that they who offend, either in manners, or in doctrine, do err and go out of the way. We err in manners therefore, when we do ill: we err in doctrine, when we judge falsely. Now these errors of the mind are of like condition in comparison of life eternal, as are diseases of the body in comparison of life temporal. So that as amongst diseases of the body some are curable, some are deadly; curable I call them whereof we recover, deadly, whereof we die: in like sort amongst the errors of the mind some are curable, which do not bereave us of salvation; some deadly, which bring us to everlasting death. In the Church militant they whom God hath chosen may err in manners and doctrine: but their error is curable, they can not err to death. But they who are called only, and not chosen, may err in manners and doctrine, even with a deadly error, which never shall be cured. That the chosen may err in manners and doctrine: it is evident by the Apostles. For they did err in manners, when k Matt. 26.56. they forsook Christ, at the time that judas the renegade betrayed him. They did err in doctrine, when l Act. 1.6. they thought the kingdom of Christ to be not heavenly, but earthly: not spiritual, but like the kingdoms of this world; presently to come, not after to be looked for: proper to Israel, not common to all nations by virtue of the promises. Yea, that more is, when they had received the holy Ghost in greater measure from heaven, m Gal. 2.14. Peter went not rightly to the truth of the Gospel: n Reu. 19.10. & 22.8. john would have worshipped an Angel once or twice: o Act. 11.2. the Apostles & brethren who were in judaea thought that the word of God was not to be preached to the Gentiles. But yet all these errors of the Apostles were curable. For both they returned to Christ when he was risen again from death to life: and first themselves acknowledged, than they taught others the state of his kingdom: and Peter being reproved by Paul, did yield unto him: and john stayed himself upon the Angel's admonition, and the Apostles with the brethren being taught the truth, were glad that God had granted to the Gentiles also repentance unto life. Wherein that is performed which was promised by Christ, when Peter having made that worthy profession of faith, he said unto him: p Mat. 16.18. Thou art Peter, and on this stone will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The gates of hell 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. shall not prevail against the church: they shall not prevail. They 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Apostle mentioneth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which he prevaileth against ●. Cor. 10.4. shall be of strength then against the Church: but they shall not prevail by strength. For the elect and chosen of God may take a fall: but fall a way they can not. Perhaps they build stubble: but they build on the foundation. And the foundation is Christ jesus, from whom they shall never be plucked away. For, as Fabius saith in q Liu. lib. 22. Livy, that right doth faint often, as being not able well to prove the truth, but it never dieth: so men, who cleave to right and truth, are oft assaulted, but they are never conquered. The r Luk. 15.4. sheep of Christ may go astray in the wilderness: but s joh. 10.28. they can not perish. The t Luk. 15.12. prodigal son may go away from his father: but he shall come again. The u Luk. 22.32. faith of Peter himself did sown, as you would say: but it failed not. He was turned away a while from the Lord, whom he denied too: but he was turned again unto him. To conclude, the faithful are sorely pressed often, by many enemies, and mighty: but they shall never be suppressed. x Psal. 12●. 1. Often have they assaulted me from my youth up, may Israel now say, often have they assaulted me from my youth up: but they have not prevailed against me. It is certain therefore that the elect and chosen, though they be made the children of God by adoption, yet are subject to error. Howbeit, of the other side, they are subject so, that they are freed from the gilt of error by Christ, and are accepted as holy of God, because they are in part holy. y Cant. 1. ver. 4 I am black, o ye daughters of jerusalem, saith the spouse, yet I am comely: as the tents of Kedar, yet as the hangings of Solomon. Yea farther the bridegroom saith, that z ver. 14. she is fair, nay (that is more) a ver. 7. the Fairest, but the fairest of women: not simply the fairest, (as Bernard well noteth) but in comparison of women, but in respect of earthly creatures. To teach the Church thereby, lest she wax proud, that, b Bernard. in Cant. serm. 38. as long as she liveth in the tabernacle of the body, she goeth on towards, but is not yet come to the perfection of fairness: and therefore that she is * Non pul●ra om●imodo. not (I use S. Bernardes' words) fair altogether, though she be therefore commended for her fairness because she walketh after the spirit not after the flesh. But here peradventure some man will object (an argument which Papists are ever hammering on) that c joh. 14.16. & 15.26. & 16. 1●. the holy Ghost is promised and given by Christ to the elect; and the holy Ghost is the Ghost or spirit of holiness and truth: whereof it may seem to be well gathered that they can neither err in doctrine, nor in manners. To this, (if it be objected) thus I answer: that the holy Ghost hath filled with the unmeasurable abundance of his grace none but Christ only, d joh. 1. 1●. of whose fullness we all receive: Christ in deed hath given the holy ghost to the elect, but he hath given it e joh. ●. 34. by measure, (as I may say with john;) not to this effect that they may not err, but that they may not err to death. For it is a sentence not only proved by Philosophers, but also known to simple men by common experience, that whatsoever thing is received of an other, it is received according to the capacity of that which receiveth it. We receive therefore the gifts of the holy Ghost, according to the simple capacity of man's weakness, not to the majesty of God's spirit. There is water enough in the main sea to quench the raging flames that waste a whole town: but a small dish can not contain enough to assuage the fire that burketh one house. Men, who are begotten * Gen. 5.3. in the image and likeness of their father Adam, do flame, & burn as the f Psal. 57 4. Prophet speaketh. Though they be g joh 3.5. borne anew of water and of the spirit: yet the water of the spirit d●●th not quite put out all sparks of faults and oversights. For there remaineth h Rom. 7.22. Gal. 5.17. a strife between the spirit and the flesh even in the godly; and the remnants of the flesh stick in the hart and mind both; and i 1. Cor. 13.12. now (while we live) we know but in part, and k 2. Cor. 12.9. the power of God is perfitted in weakness; and jeremy prayeth, l jer. 17.14. heal me O Lord and I shall be healed; and Paul acknowledgeth of himself that m Phil. 3.12. he is not yet perfit, though labouring hard toward the mark; and james saith generally concerning the faithful, n jam. 3.2. In many things we all offend, and our Saviour witnesseth that o joh. 13.10. he which is washed hath need to wash his feet. Wherefore though the chosen and elect of God be renewed by the holy Ghost: yet they are not cleansed so in this life from all perverseness of hart, and blindness of mind, that they can neither swarm from doing their duty, nor be deeeived in judgement. For p joh. 13.16. the holy Ghost, no doubt, (as Christ promised,) doth lead them into all truth, yea I say farther into all holiness: but so, as S. Paul professeth to the Ephesians, that q Act. 20. ver. 27. he showed them all the counsel of God. Now, he showed them all the counsel of God, not absolutely and simply, but r ver. 20. so far as was profitable for them. The holy Ghost therefore doth lighten the minds and sancti●●e the hearts of the elect and chosen so far, as is expedient for their salvation. But it is expedient for us to err in some things: that we may give all s 1. Tim. 1.17. glory unto God alone; that, knowing what we are, t Rom. 11.20. we be not high minded; that we may be taught to u Gal. 6.2. bear each others burdens; that we may x Phil. 2.12. work forth our own salvation with fear; that we may learn with Paul, that y 2. Cor. 12.9. the grace of God is sufficient for us; that we may z Mark. 9.24. sharpen our trust in him, a Luk. 7.47. stir up our love towards him, and pray unto him heartily, b Luk. 17.5. increase our faith, c Luk. 11.4. forgive our sins; in a word, that we may run the whole race of our life with greater steadfastness and constancy. Then sith these things are thus, it is to be concluded, that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all truth and holiness, even to salvation: but to this salvation they are so lead, that they are not free from all spot and wrinkle, either of manners or of doctrine. Touching which point, on the one side in respect of manners d De perfect. obed. leg. Dei. Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully, holding this heretical opinion (amongst others) that the regenerate are able to perform the law of God perfectly: which thing it is blasphemous to affirm of any but of Christ only. On the other side in respect of doctrine, e Contr. B●●ntium lib. 3. Hosius the Cardinal hath overshot himself as foully, saying that every one of the elect may err, as by S. Cyprians example he showeth: but, that all the faithful gathered together in one, cannot err; which is a fancy of a man that would build castles in the air. It is a matter therefore most sure and out of doubt, that the elect and chosen may err, as in manners, so in doctrine too: though in such sort that they shall not die, but live notwithstanding, and be cured of their errors. Marry, that they who are not chosen, but only called, may err even to death, as well in doctrine as in manners: in manners, it appeareth by the example of f Matt. 26.15. judas, who was brought through covetousness to betray Christ; in doctrine, we may see by those monstrous heretics, of whom S. john saith, g 1. joh. 2. 1●. they went out from us but they were not of us. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may err, the one, to their trial; the other to their destruction; and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen: that which I proposed is proved sufficiently, that the militant church may err not only in manners but in doctrine also. If any man for proof thereof require examples: he hath the churches of h Gal. 1.6. Galatia, of i 1. Cor. 11.18. & 15.12. Corinth, of k Reu. 2. ver. 15. Pergamus, of l ver. 20. Thyatira, of m Reu. 3. ver. 2. Sardis, and of n ver. 15. La●dicea. All the which (to omit examples of our own time) the scripture witnesseth to have erred, some of them in manners, some in doctrine, some in both. Yea, the very church of o Reu. 1.12. Ephesus itself, which Christ showed to john in the figure of p 1. Tim. 3.15. a candlestick, because it held the light of life: which Timothee abode in, when Paul wrote unto him, that p 1. Tim. 3.15. the church is the pillar and ground of the truth: even this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by q Reu. 2. ver. 4. leaving of her first love, that Christ did therefore threaten her r ●●r. 5. he would remove her candlestick out of his place unless she repented. She repented not, but by little and little became worse & worse, and heaped fault upon fault, yea many faults upon one, both in manners, and doctrine. Therefore Christ removed her candlestick out of his place: the chosen, who shined with the light of faith, he gathered to himself; the called, who hated the light, he gave over to darkness & the shadow of death; the godly * Reu. ●. ●●. he made pillars in the temple of his God: the hypocrites (the filth of the temple) he cast out to the dunghill of the ungodly; and he left the city of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomet's impiety. Now, that may befall to every one (as they say) which may befall to any one. Then look what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus, that may to every Church. But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crazed, afterward quite overthrown: and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer. Then is there no Church upon the face of the earth, howsoever it flatter itself with those titles of the candlestick of Christ, & pillar of the truth: there is no Church (I say,) whose body, that is the chosen, may not be overtaken with faintness and darkness: whose dregs, that is the hypocrites, may not be consumed with rottenness and destruction: finally whose whole frame & constitution may not be deprived both of strength and beauty. I know that the Papists answer hereunto, that the militant Church may err for the flocks, the people, that are in it: but the guides and Pastors (whose assembly is called the Church by Christ, saying, s Matt. 18. 1●. tell the Church,) can not. Which is false and fond. For, as there are sheep and goats in the flocks: so the Pastors of them are good, hirelings, or thieves. The good ones do slumber sometimes, as the Apostles: the t joh. 10. ver. 12. hirelings fly assoon as the wolf cometh: the u ver. 10. thieves come to steal, to kill and to destroy. Wherefore no Pastor is exempt from danger of erring more or less. And, for the former point that they may err in manners, what need I bring Apostles or Prophets to prove it? The complaint of Bernard is fresh, I would to God it were not too fresh: x Bernard. in ●antic. Ser. 33. there creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church. Which words being spoken in reproof of the life and conversation of the Prelates, that is, of the Bishops & Pastors of the Church, do show, that not a common disease, but a rot; and that not small, but ugly; and that creeping on, not keeping at a stay; may infect, not only this or that member, but the whole body of Pastors for their manners. Now, that they may also be overseen in doctrine, and err in points of faith: it is plainly proved by those Corinthian Pastors, y 1. Cor. 3.10. who built hay and stubble upon the foundation that S. Paul had laid: by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth, that z 2. Pet. 2.1. there should be false teachers in the new Church, as in the old there were false prophets: by a Euseb. hist. eccles. l. 7. c. 22. Samosatenus, b Theodoret. hist. eccles. lib. 1. cap. 2. Arius, & c Socrat. hist. ecc. l. 7. c. 29. & 32. Nestorius, Pastors of famous Churches, and authors of most heinous heresies: yea, by d Theodoret. hist. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 16. the Bishops of the whole world, who all were Arians in a manner, when there were scarce left a few catholics, when e Hieron. dial. count Lucifer. cap. 7. & in Chronico. Athanas. epist. de synod. Arim. & Seleuciae. the whole world did groan & wonder at itself, that it was become an Arian. But the Papists will reply, that when they say the Church cannot err, they mean the Church in that sense in which the Schoolmen call it representative, that is, Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a general Council. What? And hath that Church (I mean, a general Council) this privilege that it can not err? They hold so in deed. But what will they say of so many Counsels of the Arians? which caused f In epist. ad Procopium. Gregory Nazianzene to despair that any good would be done by Counsels. But they deny these to have been lawful Counsels. What will they answer then to those which themselves confess to have been lawful. The Council of g Can. 59 Laodicea (though a provincial Council, yet allowed by h Constantinop. in Trul. can. 2. Concil. Nicen. secund. can. 1. a general) did set down the same Canon of the scriptures which both the old Church had, and our Church doth hold. The third Council of i Can. 47. Carthage (which therein the Council of k Session. 4. Trent subscribeth to) did add the books of Maccabes & the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon. The l Can. 6. Council of Nice appointed bounds and limits, as well for the Bishop of Rome's jurisdiction, as for other Bishops. The Council of m Capit. 5. apud Innocen●. tert.. Lateran gave the sovereignty of ordinary power to the Church of Rome over all other Churches. The Council of n Sess. 4. & 5. Constance decreed that the Council is above the Pope, and made the Papal power subject to general Counsels. Which thing did so highly displease the Council of Florence, that o Aene. Silu. de Concil. Basil. Council Flor. & Ferrar. in Concilij indict. it undermined the Council of basil, and guilefully surprised it, for putting that in ●re against Pope Eugenius. Upon the which points it must needs be granted that one side of these general Counsels did err: unless we will say that things which are contrary may be true both. Wherefore, to make an end, sith it is apparent by most clear proofs, that both the chosen and the called, both the flocks, and the Pastors, both in several by themselves and assembled together in general Counsels, may err: I am to conclude, with the good liking (I hope) of such as love the truth, that the militant Church may err in manners and doctrine. In the one point whereof, concerning manners, I defend ourselves against the malicious slanders of the p Bristol Motiu. 3 and Demand. 8. Papists: who charge the Church of England with the heresy of Puritans, impudently, and falsely. In the other, concerning doctrine, I do not touch the walls of Babylon with a light finger, but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue. The third conclusion. Whose intolerable presumption is reproved by the third Conclusion too: wherein it resteth to be showed, that the holy scripture is of greater credit & authority then the Church. And although this be so manifestly true, that to have proposed it only, is, to have proved it: yet give me leave I pray to prove it briefly with one reason, I will not trouble you with many. All the words of scripture be the words of truth: some words of the Church be the words of error. But he that telleth the truth always, is more to be credited, than he that lieth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more, then is the Church. That all the words of scripture be the words of truth: it is out of controversy. For q 2. Tim. 3.16. the whole scripture is inspired of God: and r Tit. 1.2. God can neither deceive nor be deceived. That some words of the Church be the words of error: if any be not persuaded perhaps by the reasons which I have brought already, let him hear the sharpeses and most earnest Patron of the Church confessing it. s De●ens. ●id. ●ri●. lib. 1. Andrad●us Payva, a Doctor of Portugal, the best learned man (in my opinion) of all the papists, rehearseth certain points wherein Counsels also may err, even general Counsels: in so much that he saith that the very general Council of Chalcedon, one of those four first which t Registr.. lib. 2. ●nd. 11. ep. 10. Gregory professeth himself to receive as the four books of the holy Gospel, yet Andradius saith, that this Council erred, in that it did 1 Temer●, & nulla ratione. rashly and without reason (these are his own words) ordain, that the Church of Constantinople should be above the Churches of Alexandria and Anti●●he. Neither doth he only say that the Council of Chalcedon erred, and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell: but he addeth also a reason why Counsels may err in such cases, to weet, because they follow 2 Non afflatu● sancti spiritus. not the secret motion of the holy ghost, but 3 Rumoris auram inanem. idle Blasts of vain reports, and 4 Hominum opiniones sallaces. men's opinions which deceive oft. A Council then may follow some times the deceitful opinions of men, and not the secret motion of the holy ghost. Let the Counsels than give place to the holy scriptures: whereof no part is uttered by the spirit of man, but all by the spirit of God. For if some caviller (to shift of this reason) shall say that we must not account of that error as though it were the judgement of the general Council, because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approve it: I would request him, first of all, to weigh, that a general Council and assembly of Bishops must needs be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop; so that, what the greater part of them ordaineth, that is ordained by the Council: next, to consider, that the name of Church may be given to an assemblis of Bishops and a Council, but it can not be given to the Bishop of Rome: lastly, to remember, that the Bishop of Rome, Honorius the first, was condemned of heresy by u Concil. 6. ●●●nor. Constan●inop. action. 13. the general Council of Constantinople allowed and approved by Agatho Bishop of Rome. Wherefore, take the name of Church in what sense soever you list, be it for the company either of Gods chosen, or of the called too, or of the guides and Pastors, or be it for the Bishop of Rome his own person, though to take it so it seemeth very absurd: the Bishop of Rome himself, if he were to be my judge, shall not be able to deny (unless his forehead be of adamant) but that some of the Church's words are words of error. Now if the Bishop of Rome and romanists themselves be forced to confess, both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous, and that the scripture saith nothing but clear truth: shall there yet be found any man, either so blockishly unskilful, or so frowardly past shame, as that he dare affirm that the Church is of greater credit and authority than the holy scripture? x Ecclesiast. hi●●rar. l. ●. c. ●. Pighius hath done it, in his treatise of the holy government of the church. Where though he in 〈◊〉 ●●llify with gallant salves his cursed speech: yet, to build the tower of his Church, and Antichrist, with the ruins of Christ and of the holy scripture: first he saith: touching the writings of the Apostles, that they were given to the church, * Non ut praeessent sed ut subcisent. not that they should rule our faith and religion, but that they should be ruled rather: and then he concludeth that the authority of the church is not only not inferior, not only equal, nay, it is superior also after a sort to the authority of the scriptures. y Histor. nature. lib. 36. cap. 10. Pliny reporteth that there was at Rome a certain dial set in the field of Flora to note the shadows of the sun: the notes and marks of which dial had not agreed with the sun for the space of thirty years. And the cause thereof was this, as Pliny saith, that either the course of the sun was disordered and changed by some means of heaven, or else the whole earth was slipped away from her centre. The Church of Rome seemeth to be very like this dial in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territory to show the shadows of the sun, even of z Mal. 4.2. the sun of righteousness, that is, of Christ: but her notes and marks have not agreed with Christ these many years together. Not that there is any fault in the dial, I mean in the Church, (for that can not be, as Pighius proveth prettily:) but because perhaps either Christ himself hath took an other course, and is altered I know not by what changeableness of God, or else the whole scripture is slipped from the point in the which it stood. But let us (right worshipful) who know that the dials and clocks do miss often, but the course of the sun is certain and constant, let us make more account of the sun, then of a dial; of heaven, then of Pliny; of the Zodiac circle, then of the field of Flora; of God, then of men; of Christ, then of Pighius; of the holy scripture, then of the church. For God forbidden there should be any (amongst us) so beastly a monster in the shape of man, as to set up Antichrist in the temple of God above God: and to attribute more to any, either man, or multitude of men, then to the Lord of majesty. But so do they, no doubt, who have the Church in greater regard than the scripture. For the voice of the scripture is the voice of God: the voice of the Church is the voice of men. Then if it be impious to set up men above God: doubtless, to set up the Church above the scripture, it is Antichristian. Nor yet do I deny that the Church's voice is sometimes the voice of God. For, in appeasing the offences and reproving the sins of brethren, a Mat. 18.17. if thy brother (saith Christ) refuse to hear the church, let him be to thee as a heathen man, and a Publican. But the holy spirit, that is the spirit of truth, doth speak, both alone, and always, in the scripture. An humane spirit, that is a spirit of error, hath a part sometimes in the speech of the Church. Both which points I have proved by the word of God, the evidence of the thing, and the confessions of our adversaries. Why do we not then acknowledge that the royal prerogative of this privilege, to be altogether exempt from all error, is due to scripture only; and confess, as b De bapt. conc. Donatist. lib. 2. c. 3. Austin doth against the Donatists, that it is peculiar and proper to the holy canonical scripture, that all things which are written therein be true, and right: but the letters and writings of Bishops, as of Cyprian, yea the very Counsels, not provincial only, but also full and general, have often times somewhat that may be amended. I, for my part, do gladly both allow this sentence of Austin, and judge it worthy to be allowed, as agreeable to the truth. And therefore I conclude the point which I proposed, that the holy scripture is of greater credit and authority than the church. Thus you have my judgement (right learned Inceptors) touching the Conclusions which are to be disputed of; opened in more words perhaps, than your wisdom; in fewer, than the weight of the things required. But I have waded so far in the opening of them, as I thought the Proctors might well give me leave by the straightness of time. As for that which needeth to be discussed farther: I will assay to open it, as well as I can (if occasion serve,) when the adversary arguments shall be proposed in disputation. CONCLUSIONS HANDLED IN DIVINITY SCHOOL, THE III. OF NOVEMBER 1579. 1 The holy Catholic Church, which we believe, is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. HE, who the sea, the earth, the skies made by his word of nought, Who by eternal power doth guide and rule all things he wrought: Did choose from out the sons of men before the world was pight, Such as with blessed angels aye should joy his blissful sight. The jews are not the only men that make this holy band, But they are soldiers chosen out of every tongue, and land: Where on the south the mighty prince of Abyssines doth reign; Where on the north the coasts do lie that look to Charles wain; Where Phoebus with his glistering beams doth raise the dawning light, And sinking in the western seas doth bring the darksome night. The fle●h can not by nature's light such hidden truths pursue: But Christian faith by light of grace this Catholic Church doth view. 2 The Church of Rome is not the Catholic Church, nor a sound member of the catholic Church. THey do not well who shut the world within the Roman bounds: Christ's Church is spread through all the earth without restraint of mounds▪ Rome was (I grant) a faithful branch of this renowned vine: Rome was a mirror that in grace, in zeal, in love, did shine: Rome was commended far and wide for faith in Christ his name: For Peter's doctrine taught and kept Rome was of worthy fame. But where Rome was, now ruins are. The Capitol is s●ooried: The ground is bathed in Christians blood, whom Romish wolves have worried. Her Churches are with idols stained, her guides with manners vile, Whom lustful trains, and wicked hearts, and beds unchaste defile. O thrice unhappy Babylon, that Zion'S spoil dost work, Under the noble name and hue of Zion wouldst thou lurk? 3 The reformed churches in England, Scotland, France, Germany, and other kingdoms & common wealths have severed themselves lawfully from the church of Rome. A Place of haunt for devils and spirits is Babylon waxed, saith john. Art thou desirous to be saved? from Babylon be gone. The names and tricks of Babylon Rome on itself doth take. Then, if ye seek eternal life, see that ye Rome forsake. This have the noble Germans done bidding the Pope a dieu: England hath followed Germany, Rome's thraldom to eschew. Behold the Lord hath called on the Flemish, French, and Dane: And Scotland hath escaped eke the Papal deadly bane. O that the remnant of the world by faith to Christ were knit, And Princes to the Prince of all their sceptres would submit. Build up O Lord, O father dear, the church and Zion'S for't: That unto thee from Babylon thy people may resort. AMongst many singular benefits of God bestowed upon our University, (fathers, and brethren,) which may be very fruitful to the advancing of God's glory and salvation of the Church, if they be well husbanded: there is scarce any more excellent (in my judgement,) then that it is ordered, that the truth given by inspiration of God, and registered in the Scripture, should be not expounded only by public lectures, but also proved by disputations. A worthy and profitable ordinance, no doubt: and most meet for schools which serve to train up Christians, that is, for schools of God. For what can there be more precious than the truth, which teacheth us the knowledge of God, the way to life? And what more convenient to strengthen the truth, then to have it proved by discussing the reasons brought of both parts. For as gold, being digged out of the veins of the earth, is severed from earthy substance (mixed therewith) by the mettall-workemen knocking it together; and as husbandmen are wont to sift wheat from the chaff by winowing, that it may be fit to nourish the body: so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs, which it hath not gotten from the holy veins whence it is digged, but from men's vessels wherein it is received; and the corn that is sown for the food of the soul, is winnowed (with the wind that bloweth from the holy Ghost) by the husbandmen of heaven, that it may be cleaner from the chaff of errors. The cheerful undertaking, and faithful performing of the which duty the common wealth may challenge at our hands of right: specially for that it hath endowed and furnished this noble University and place of exercise of good learning with privileges, with houses, with lands in ample sort, to this intent chief that it might be a nursery for Pastors of the Church. For both it is meet that Pastors of the Church should be not only able to edify the faithful with sound and wholesome doctrine, but also a 〈◊〉 1. ●. to convince them who gainsay it, as S. Paul witnesseth: and we shall be able to convince gainsayer so much the more easily, fitly, and effectually, if first we practise that in a warlike exercise, which we may do after when we shall make war with enemies in deed. Now, it there be any thing wherein it is very convenient and behoveful, both for Christian soldiers to be well practised, against the mischievous attempts of their enemies; and the gold of Christian truth to be thoroughly cleansed from the dross, the wheat from the cha●●e, by the pains of husbandmen and workmen of the church: doubtless, th●s, which I have chosen to debate of, is so profitable, being known; so perilous, unknown; that we have great cause to bend all our wits unto the search & knowledge of it. For there have assailed the Church now this great while, and scatteredly there range, they, of whom b Matt. 7.19. Christ hath warned us to beware, whom c 2. Pet. 2.1. Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church, I mean false teachers, and false prophets: who coming to us in the clothing of sheep, yet being ravening wolves in their hearts and deeds, naming themselves the Church as if they were the only sheep of Christ, do teach damnable heresies, and blaspheme the way of truth. To spread the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithful: as Rabsakeh the Assyrian, d 2. King. 18. ●● when he did solicit jerusalem to fall from God, did use the name of God against the people of God: so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemy of the new jerusalem, doth use the Church's name against the children of the Church. He saith that Christians ought to believe the Catholic Church: and that no Church is Catholic at all but the church of Rome: and that we therefore who have forsaken it, have fallen away from the communion of the catholic Church: moreover, that there can not be any hope of salvation out of the Church: and therefore that all, who either leave the Church of Rome, or join themselves to any of our reformed Churches, must needs be lost for ever. This fair but false vizard of the catholic Church, doth lead many simple men out of the way: who shun the catholic faith, while they are afraid lest they should fall from the faith; & dare not join themselves with the Church of Christ, lest they should be severed from the communion of the Church. So that we may justly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day, that which e Leo. epist. 8●▪ ad episcopos Palaest. a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of jewry: Ye think yourselves to deal for the faith (O ye Romans) & ye go against the faith; ye do arm yourselves with the name of the church, & ye fight against the church. Wherefore, being persuaded that the handling hereof would avail much to ease the ignorance of the unskilful, and quail the stubbornness of our adversaries, and further (which is the chief point) the salvation of the elect: I, for the duty, or rather more than duty which I own to the church of Christ, resolved with myself (having such opportunity of disputation offered) to treat of the state of the Catholic, of the Roman, and of our own Church. The rather, for that the foundations of this work are already laid in our former disputation: wherein it was showed out of the word of truth, that the scripture teacheth all things needful to salvation; that the church may err while it is militant on the earth; that the authority of the church is subject to the scripture. Which things being settled, it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I have purposed: I mean, to lay open the nature and condition of the catholic church, the corruption of the Roman, and the soundness of ours. But before I enter into the opening of these points, which I will do (by God's grace) briefly, as the time; sincerely, as the charge requireth: first I must desire and crave of you all, my hearers, most earnestly, not that you will give me an attentive ear, which of your own accord ye do: but that with your ear you will bring a mind desirous to embrace the truth. In Athenes there were judges called Areopagites, whose order was such (as 〈◊〉. Rhetor. 1. Demosthen. contr. A●●stocrat. Lucian. in Anachar. the Heathens write, and commend them for it) that they bid the pleader plead without preambles, and made him to be sworn that he should tell them no untruth: themselves did hear the cause with great silence while it was pleading, and judged of it with great uprightness when they had heard it. Such Areopagites would I have you, brethren, in this our Christian Athenes, show yourselves to me ward. I will declare the matter (as a pleader ought) simply, and sincerely, without preambles, though unbidden: and without untruths, though vnsworne. Give you (as judges should do) favourable audience, without a partial prejudice of foreconceived errors: and sentence with the truth, without corrupt affections, according unto right and reason. And I would to God you would hear me, in such sort as g Ac●. 1●. 35. Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle: whose words of the unknown God he believed, persuaded by the light of truth, though against that opinion which he had foreconceived. God, the father of lights, and autour of truth, who gave Paul a fiery tongue, to lighten and kindle the minds of his hearers; who moved the hart of Denys to see the light of godliness and to be set on fire with it: vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue, that it may serve to open the mysteries of his word; and to soften your hearts, that the seed of life may fall upon a fruitful ground. Open our eyes▪ O Lord, and we shall see; give us fleshy hearts, and we shall assent. Let thy spirit lead us into all truth, and let thy word be a lantern to our feet: that we may believe the things which thou teachest, and do the things which thou commandest, to the everlasting glory of thy goodness and our own salvation. Amen. In the treaty of the matter, that I set in hand with, of the state of the Church both in general, and particular, The fourth Conclusion. the Roman, and the reformed Churches of sundry nations: it cometh first to be declared what is the holy catholic church, whereof we profess in our Creed that we believe it. And hereof I say, the holy catholic church is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. Which is termed a Church, that is, a company ofmen and an assembly of people called together; holy, because God hath chosen this company, and sanctified it to himself; Catholic, for that it consisteth not of one nation, but of all, spread through the whole world. For God, to the intent that he might impart the riches of his glorious grace unto mankind, h Eph. 1. 4●. did choose from everlasting a certain number of men, as a i 1. Pet. 2. ●. peculiar people, k Matt. 2●. 34. who should possess with him the kingdom of heaven prepared for them from the foundations of the world. And although this people be sundered by the distance of places, and times, for the several persons and members thereof: yet hath he joined and knit them all together by the bond of his holy spirit, into the fellowship of one body, and a civil or rather a spiritual communion, as it were into one city. The name of which city, is, l Hebr. 12.22. Reu. 2●. 2. the heavenly, new, and holy jerusalem, the city of the living God: the king, is m Psal. 87.1. God almighty, who founded, establisheth, and ruleth the city: the laws, are God's word, which the citizens hear and follow, as n joh. 10. 1●. sheep the voice of the shepherd: the citizens, are the Saints, even all and singular holy men, who therefore are called o Eph. ●. 19. fellow-citizens of the Saints, and men of God's household: the register, wherein their names are enroled, is called p Reu. 20, 1●. the book of life: finally the liberties and commodities, which they enjoy, are most ample benefits both of this life and of the life to come, to wit, the grace of God, the fountain of goodness; the treasures of Christ, who is heir of all things; the forgiveness of sins, the peace of conscience, the gifts of righteousness, of godliness, of holiness; one spirit, one faith, one hope of our calling, and sacraments which are the seals of our hope; in a word all things which are expedient for us to the necessary maintenance of our earthly life, and after this life the inheritance of life eternal in heaven with endless bliss and glory. But because the citizens of this city of God having disobeyed & rebelled against him had lost their freedom through their treason, and being put thereby from everlasting life w●re to suffer death in the chains of darkness: God the father of infinite mercy and compassion, did send his only begotten son into the world, that he being appointed king of God's city should redeem the citizens from the powerof darkness out of the thraldom of the devil, and translating them a fresh into his kingdom should bless them and endow them with all the privileges and liberties of the citizens of God. And so it pleased him, though we had played the traitors in revolting from him to his and our enemy, yet of his free favour to make a league with us, & enter into covenant. Which covenant being one and the same in substance, yet diversly considered, and (by reason of this diversity) divided into two, the one called old, grounded on Christ being promised to come; the other, new, on Christ being come into the world: God hath set it down in the instruments of his covenant, wherein he hath said, q Gen. 17.7. Leu. ●6. 12. ●er. 3●. ●3. ●eb. 8.10. I will be your God, and ye shall be my people. What is the tenor, how great the use, how unspeakable the benefit of this holy covenant, made with the patriarchs, the Prophets, the Apostles, and all the Saints of God: it is recorded in the sacred instruments of the old and new testament, or covenant. An abridgement whereof, containing the summeof the Apostles doctrine, is delivered in the articles of our Christian faith, or Creed, as we term it, gathered out of God's word. Wherefore as the covenant consisteth of two branches: so the Creed expressing it containeth two parts. One of them instructeth our faith touching God, who said to his servants, I will be your God: the other, touching the people of God, that is the Church, to whom God said, you shall be my people. Touching God, it teacheth us to believe in him, who is one God in nature, distinct in three persons; the Father the creator, the Son the redeemer, the holy Ghost the sanctifier. Touching the people of God, it teacheth us to believe, that they are a Church, holy, and Catholic, which hath communion of the Saints, to whom their sins are forgiven, whose bodies shallbe raised up again from death, and being joined with their souls shall live everlastingly. Now, to make the matter more evident and plain that this city of God and company of the chosen is the holy Catholic Church: first, it is certain that the people of God is called effectually out of the filth of other men, to know, and serve him, by Christ who doth lighten their minds, and move their hearts, through the power of the holy Ghost and ministery of the word. And the whole company of them, who are so called, is named the Church, by an excellency; not a common one, but a passing, eminent, and most noble Church: as wherein the faithful all are comprehended that either be, or have been, or shall be to the end from the beginning of the world. Which is termed in r Heb. 12.23. scripture the Church of the first borne, who are written in heaven. Which s Ephes. 1 5. God did predestinate to be adopted in himself, according to the good pleasure of his wil Which t Ephes. 4.16. & 5.23. Christ being given to it by his Father, as a head to the body, loved as his spouse, redeemed it from Satan, and quickeneth it with his Spirit, having suffered death himself to deliver us from the gulf of death. Moreover as it is clear that this Church is called out of the rascal sort of the world, to be partaker of the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven: so is it clear too that it ought to be holy. For u isaiah. 1.4. the holy one of Israel x Ma●t. 7.23. can not abide them who are workers of iniquity: y Zach. 14.21. neither shall any Cananite be in the house of the Lord of hosts: and z Reu. 21. ●7. into the heavenly city there shall enter no unclean thing, nor whatsoever worketh abomination, or lie. Christ therefore, the Saviour of the Church his body, who a Rom. 8.30. as he called them whom he predestinate, so justified them whom he called: b Eph. 5.26. having cleansed the Church from her sins by his blood, reneweth her from the filth of the flesh unto holiness; which he beginneth in this life, and perfitteth in the life to come, when he shall present her without spot and wrinkle * Reu. ●9. 8. a glorious spouse unto himself. So that, both the Church may well be termed holy, and the communion of saints the Church's communion: which militant on earth is holy in affection, triumphant in heaven is holier in perfection, both militant and triumphant is in Christ most holy. Finally, sith God hath called the holy church not out of this or that country, not out of this or that people, but out of all nations spread through the whole world: for that cause the church is entitled Catholic, that is, universal: not jewish, not Roman, not English, not of one people or province, but universal and Catholic, compacted as it were into one body out of all sorts of estates, sexes, ages, & nations; jews, & Heathens; Greeks, & Barbarians; bond, and free; men, and women; old, and young; rich, and poor. For both the old Church (before the birth of Christ) which saw the day of Christ to come, and was saved, did gather children of God unto herself at first out of any people; afterward when the grace of God shined chief among the people of Israel, she did join c Which are named proselytes. Mat. 23. ●5. Act ●. 10. & 13. 4●. Converts to Israel out of the rest: and much more the new Church (called since Christ was borne) hath d isaiah. 5●. 2. enlarged her tabernacle (as Esay the Prophet speaketh) e Mat. 28.19. to all nations, beginning at jerusalem, judaea, Samaria, and going forward thence even to the uttermost ends of the earth. For God hath not called the circumcised jews alone, f Act. 1.8. to be his Church, as the time was when g Act. 10.28. & 11.2. the Apostles thought through a little oversight, h Galatin. de a●●an. cathol. ver. lib. 9 c. 12. the jews in our days have too presumptuously wéened: but i Eph. 2. ver. 14. Christ being crucified hath broken the stop of the partition-wall, k ver. ●0. and is become the chief stone of the corner, on which a double wall ariseth; and as l Psal. 87.4. David prophesied, the Egyptian, the Babylonian, the Tyrian, the Aethiopian, the Philistine are borne in Zion; and, as m Reu. 5.9. the Elders (in whom is represented the company of the faithful) do sing unto Christ, Thou hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and hast made us kings and priests to our God, & we shall reign upon the earth. Wherefore sith the church, which the holy scriptures do commend unto us, betokeneth the company and assembly of the faithful, whom God hath chosen, Christ hath sanctified, and called out of all nations to the inheritance of his own kingdom: the holy Ghost, who spoke by the Prophets and Apostles, doth warrantise me to resolve on my Conclusion, that the holy catholic church which we believe is the whole company of Gods elect●and chosen. You marvel perhaps why I propose this article of the Christian faith to be discussed by disputation: as though either any man stood in doubt of it, or things not doubted of were to be handled as doubtful. But if you consider that the true meaning thereof, which I have opened, most agreeable to the scripture, most comfortable to the faithful, is condemned and accursed by the standerd-bearers of the church of Rome: you will cease to marvel. For in n Concil. Constant. Sess. 15. the Council of Constance, in which they condemned john hus for an heretic, they condemned these two sayings, as heretical, to be burned with him: o Artic. ●. that there is one holy universal Church which is the whole company of them that are predestinate; and, p Artic. 6. that the Church, as it is taken in this sense for the company of them that are predestinate, is the article of our faith. Which sayings of his to be counted ungodly it seemed strange to me: and so much the more, because I perceived that the Fathers (whose words the Papists will seem to make great account of when they serve their purpose) did use the same squire to measure out the Catholic church by. For q Strom. lib. 7. Clemens Alexandrinus doth expressly call it the company of the elect, into which are gathered the faithful and just, whom God did predestinate before the creation of the world. Likewise r In epist ad Eph. cap. 3. Ambrose, having said that the honour of God the father is in Christ and in the church, defineth the church to be a people which God hath vouchsafed to adopt to himself. Furthermore s Moral. in job. lib. 28. cap. 9 Gregory the Bishop of Rome affirmeth that all the elect are contained within the compass and circuit of the church, all the reprobate are without it. And t In Cantic. sermon. 78. Bernard declaring the church to be the company of all the elect, which company was predestinate before the world began, doth touch it as a mystery which he had learned of Paul, and saith that he will boldly utter it. As for Austin, a man of sharpest judgement of them all, he neither acknowledgeth u Throughout all his books De civitate Dei. any city of God, but this elect church, in his most learned work touching the city of God; and in another touching the catechizing of the unskilful, x De rudib. catechiz. cap. 20. he saith that all the holy and sanctified men, which are, which have been, which shallbe, are citizens of this heavenly jerusalem; and in another, touching baptism against the Donatists (against whom he urgeth the Catholic church most) y De bapt. count Donatist. l. 5. cap. 27. he confesseth that those things in the song of songs, the garden enclosed, the fountain sealed up, the lily, the sister, the spouse of jesus Christ, are meant of the holy and righteous alone, who are jews inwardly by circumcision of the hart, of which holy men the number is certain, praedestinate before the foundation of the world. Wherefore, if the Prelates of the Romish Church had had any reverence, I say not of the scriptures, over which they play the Lords as they list; but of the Fathers, of whom as of orphans they bear men in hand that they have undertook the wardship: they would never have wounded, or rather burnt in Husses person, Clemens Alexandrinus, Ambrose, Gregory, Bernard, and Austin, who taught the same point that is condemned in hus, namely, that the holy universal Church is the whole company of the elect of God. But it is (I see) an undoubted truth which z Fran. Duar. de ●acr. eccles. minist. l. 5. c. 11. a learned man, liking the Pope's religion, but not the Pope's presumption, hath set down in writing: that amongst the Popes and men like to Popes it is a sure principle, If wrong he to be done, it is to be done when thou mayst get a kingdom by it. For they wrist the holy catholic Church (taught us in the Creed) from the right meaning, to the intent they may be kings, & hoist up the sails of their own ambition: in as much as they apply it, like unskilful men, if they do it ignorantly; impious, if wittingly; they apply it (I say) not to the Catholic Church, but to the militant; nor to that, as it is choose, but as it is visible, mingled with hypocrites and ungodly persons. The cause, why they do so, is, that all Christians, by reason they believe the holy Catholic Church, may be induced to think that the visible Church must be held for Catholic, and a visible monarchy must be in the visible Church, and the Pope is Prince of the visible monarchy, and all Christians must be subject to him as Prince. For, this to be the mark whereat the Pope's shoot, it is as clear as the light by the very Extravagants (as they are termed) of the Canon law, in that royal decree of a Extra. c. unam sanctam. De maioritat. & obedient. Boniface the eighth, beginning with these words, One holy Catholic Church. Where from one Catholic Church, without the which there is no salvation, nor forgiveness of sins, he creepeth up to the head of the Church even jesus Christ, & from Christ the head he slippeth down by stealth unto Christ's vicar, one and the same head (as he saith) with Christ, even the Pope of Rome: whom yet to be the head of the Catholic Church not himself would say, (unless perhaps in a dream,) for them he should be head of the triumphant church, which is a part of the Catholic: but he would be head of the visible church, which he nameth Catholic, thereby the more easily to deceive the simple: who being astonished and snared with that name, the fowler shutteth up the net, and concludeth, that every earthly creature if he will be saved must of necessity be subject to the Pope. Thus saith Pope Boniface. But unless the Pope himself and the Fathers of his Council of Trent, being thereto forced by the truth of scripture, confess against themselves, that the holy Catholic Church doth not signify the visible company of the Church militant, consisting of the good and bad mixed together; which sense the Papists give it with their Pope Boniface to the intent they may be kings: I will not request you to believe me in it. For, in the Catechism which was set forth by Pope Pius the fifth according to the decree of the Council of Trent, b Catechism. Council Trid. in exposit. symb. having said that the Church (in the Creed) doth chief signify the company of the good & bad together, they add, that Christ is head of the Church as of his body, so that, as bodily members have life from the soul, in like sort the faithful have from Christ's spirit: and therefore it is holy because it hath received the grace of holiness and forgiveness of sins from Christ, who sanctifieth & washeth it with his blood: and it is called Catholic, because it is spread in the light of one faith from the east to the west, receiving men of all sorts, be they Scythians or Barbarians, bond or free, male or female; containing all the faithful which have been from Adam even till this day, or shall be hereafter till the end of the world, professing the true faith, & being built upon Christ, upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. Pope Pius therefore and the Fathers of the Council of Trent affirm that the Church, which is specified in the Creed, is the body of Christ. Now, the scripture teacheth that c Eph. 4. ●6. all the body of Christ is quickened and increased by the holy Ghost, as if he were the soul of it. But the bad and wicked are neither quickened, nor increased. Then are they no part of the body of Christ: and therefore neither of the Church. Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Council of Trent affirm that the Church is holy, being washed by the blood of Christ, endued with grace of holiness, and with forgiveness of sins. Now, d Rom. 4.7. blessed are they whose sins are forgiven: e Matt. 5.8. blessed are the clean in heart, for they shall see God. But the bad and wicked shall neither see God, nor are blessed. Therefore neither have they forgiveness of sins, nor are their hearts clean. Then are they no part of the church. Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Council of Trent affirm that the church is called Catholic, in respect that it containeth all the faithful from the first to the last, professing the true faith, and being built upon Christ. But the wicked and hypocrites either are not faithful; or, if they may be called so, yet they profess not the true faith; or, if they profess it, yet they are not built on Christ. For they who are built on Christ, are f Mat. 7. ver. 24. built on a rock, g ver. 25. and shall never be removed. But the wicked shall be removed. Then are they no part of the church. Yet they must needs be a part of the church if the name of church did signify the visible church (as we call it) consisting of the good and bad. Wherefore it followeth thereof that the church mentioned in the creed, betokeneth not the visible church, that is, the company of good and bad together: which it is imagined to do by the builders of the Pope's monarchy. Thus, as Caiaphas in the Gospel although he spoke many things amiss against Christ, yet, h joh. 11. ver. 49 being the high Priest that same year, he said well in this speech, though ill meant too, i ver. 50. that it was expedient for them that one man should die for the people: so the Pope and the Fathers of the Council of Trent, being the high Priests that same year, though they meant ill, in saying that the holy catholic church, which we believe, is the company of good and bad mixed together: yet, being lead and moved by some divine force to speak better than they meant, they added such an exposition, that their own doctrine is overthrown by it, the error of the Council of Constance is discovered, and the truth of the scripture confirmed and established. Wherefore I may justly conclude against the Papists out of the Pope himself and the Council of Trent, that all the good and holy men, and none but they, do make the holy Catholic church. But seeing our faith must have a better ground then human decrees either of Popes or Counsels, whose breath is in their nostrils, whose houses are of clay, and their foundation is sand: therefore let us stay ourselves on that conclusion which I made before on warrant of the holy Ghost, who hath spoken to us by the Apostles and Prophets; The holy Catholic Church, which we believe, is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. And let this suffice for the first Conclusion. The second doth follow: The fifth conclusion. The church of Rome is not the catholic church, nor a sound member of the catholic church. Of the which position that we may the better perceive the drift and truth: we must search somewhat deeper, and fetch the beginnings of particular churches out of the fountain whence they flow. God, having chosen in his eternal purpose the holy catholic church, that is, all his children, to be the heirs of his kingdom, and to triumph in heavenly glory with him and his elect Angels: doth first of all send them abroad into the earth, as it were into a camp, there to serve him in war against the flesh, the world, the devil, and all the powers of darkness under the banner of Christ, that they may come conquerors out of warfare to the triumph, and may strive lawfully before they be crowned. Whereto that they may be the stronger made and better furnished, to endure the labour and hardness of warfare: God k 1. Pet. 1.23. begetteth them a new by his word, (the word working effectually through the holy Ghost,) as it were by seed; and l 1. Cor. 3.2. with the same word he nourisheth them, as with milk; m Heb. 5.14. strengtheneth them, as with meat; armeth them, n Eph. 6. ver. 17. as with a sword of the Spirit; and frameth them o ver. 16. a shield of faith, wherewith they may quench the fiery darts of the wicked one. Yea, the more to hearten them against all dangers and deceits of enemies with the skill of warfare and sure hope of victory: he bindeth them with sacraments, as with bonds of obedience, and pledges of his grace; he willeth them to * Psal. 50. ●5. call for his help in distresses, & promiseth it if they call for it, he appointeth them warlike discipline, to keep themselves in order, and guard them safer from their enemies: to be short, be delivereth them the whole trade of warfare, opened by himself the General of the army, and written in his word. To the intent then, that all the soldiers of God, who be sent at divers times into divers countries to serve him in this warfare, might learn it, & practise it: he hath ordained, as civil assemblies & societies, for the maintenance of this life; so likewise, for the next, ecclesiastical. In which ecclesiastical societies and assemblies it is his will & pleasure that there should be captains to teach, and soldiers to learn, both of them warriors faithfully to practise and wage the war of the Lord. And these are called churches, but particular churches to distinguish them from the catholic: because they are divers parts of the catholic, that is, the whole church; divers members, of one body, divers bands, of one army. Which, for the divers regard of place, and time, wherein they go to warfare, are specified by divers names. In regard of place: the church, which served God at jerusalem, is called the church of jerusalem: that which at Samaria, the church of Samaria: that which at Ephesus, the church of Ephesus; that which at Rome, the church of Rome; they which in England, in France, in Germany, are called the English, the French, the Dutch churches. In regard of time: we say the jewish church in the days of Moses, of David, of Ezekias; the Roman under Nero, Constantine, Boniface; the English in King Henry's reign, King Edwardes, Queen Maries: or how soever else the difference of times be noted. Now, the rule of reason and honesty would that every one of these churches, ordained by God to that end, should bring forth the children of God, as a mother; yield dutiful honour to God, as a spouse; and fight the spiritual battles of God, as a valiant and faithful army. But p Reu. 12. ver. 9 the devil, the enemy of the chosen woman, in nature * That is to say, an adversary. a Satan, in subtlety a serpent, in fierceness a dragon, q ver. 13. & 17. which furiously pursueth the woman & her seed, r Mat. 13.25. soweth rares among the wheat in the field of the Lord, that is to say, he mingleth his soldiers with the soldiers of God in the camp, and amongst the godly he fosteth in hypocrites, that they, being felow-souldiors in show, but traitors in deed, may corrupt the army. And himself provoketh the faithful to revolt from God, by all his practices, open, and secret; force, and fraud: some time by fire and sword of tyrants, some time by baits of pleasures, and wealth, some time by the pretence of religion, and charity. By the which means he procureth often, partly through the craft and cunning of hypocrites, chief when they are made captains of some band, partly through the frailty and infirmity of the elect, whom flesh and blood do weaken: that the church, which is billed to the warfare of Christ, knoweth not or careth not for the trade of warfare, and serveth perhaps under her captains banner, but retchlessely, and loosely, perhaps is betrayed to the enemy by her watchmen, while either they do fall a sleep, or deal falsely. And so cometh that to pass at the length, which s isaiah. 1.21. Eze. 16.15. Hof. 2.2. and the rest in m●ny places. the Prophets lament in the church of the jews, & too many churches since Christ's time have felt. that the church, which should be a mother, is a stepmother; & she, whose faith is plight to Christ, becometh an adulteress; & bands of soldiers breaking their promise, yea their oath, do rebel against the Highest. So t Gal. 1. ver. ●. the churches of Galatia when they had believed the Gospel of Christ, and their names were billed by their own consent to serve in his wars, u ver. 6. & 7 were removed away (by such as troubled them) to an other Gospel. So x 2. Cor. 11. ●. S. Paul feareth for the Church of Corinth, lest, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so their minds should be corrupted and seduced from the simplicity that is in Christ. So Christ himself teacheth us, that y Reu. ●. ●5. the church of Pergamus was stained with the filth of the Nicolaitans: that z Reu. 3. ver. 13. the church of Laodicea was blind, naked, lukewarm, neither hot nor cold: that the church of Sardis was in part, a ver. 1. dead; in part, b ver. 2. ready to die; though alive, in part. The assemblies therefore of the churches militant, called visible churches, c ver. 4. which do contain the good together with the bad, the chosen with the reprobate, the faithful with the treacherous, the holy with the hypocrites, d Matt. 3. 1●. chaff with corn, e Matt. 13.27. tars with wheat, f 2. Tim. 2.20. wooden and earthen vessels, with vessels of gold and silver, some of them for honour, and some unto dishonour: I say, these visible churches may do their duty faintly, may leave it altogether undone, may be discharged of their oath, and dismissed from soldiers service; they may be sick of lesser diseases and infirmities, they may be of a deadly pestilence, they may lose the spirit of Christ, and so die. Furthermore, to make it easier to be seen what churches ought to be accounted dead, what churches sick, what churches whole, and sound: we have to consider the causes of death, of sickness, and of health. The causes of these things do come in men's bodies, (as g Galen. de sanit. tuend. lib 1. cap. 2. Physicians teach,) partly, from the seed that we are begotten of: partly, from the food wherewith we are nourished. Whereof the one appeareth in sickness and diseases that come by inheritance; such as are derived from the parents to the children: the other, as it hath a great force in all men, so experience showeth that it hath greatest force in armies. For h Appian. de bell. Parth. the soldiers who served Marcus Antonius, being feign to eat roots for want of corn, fell upon an herb which brought them first to madness, and afterward to death: and i De re military. l▪ 3. c. 2. Vegetius (a writer of the trade of warfare) giving charge that soldiers drink not of marish waters, saith that naughty water is like unto poison, and doth breed the plague in them who drink of it. Not unlike is the case of spiritual death, diseases, and health, in the bodies of Churches. For they do either live in p●rfit good health, or fall into sickness, or come to their death, according to the nature of their seed, and food. Now, the seed whereof, and food with the which they are wont and aught to be begotten anew, and nourished, is the word of God (as S. k 1. Pet. 1 23. ● 2.2. Peter witnesseth) preached by the servants and ministers of Christ. Therefore in what Churches the ministers do preach the word of God pure, sincere, and uncorrupt, that it may breed good juice and blood in them through the inward working of the holy Ghost: those churches must we count to be ●ound, and whole: some of them indeed more sound, than other some, according as the word is more purely preached, and the spirit worketh more effectually, but all of them, sound. But where the word of God, either is not preached, so that there groweth a famine; or is preached corruptly, mixed with man's word as it were with leaven, or darnel, or poison: as they who receive no food are like to die through hunger, & l wire. de praest●g. Daemon. l. 3. c. 17. such as eat bread made of corn and ●●rnel do fall into a light fren●●●; so must we needs judge that churches, whose food is either none, or nought, are apt to diseases, and near to their death. For Amos declareth that men are cast away through want of the word, in that he telleth Israel, that m Amos 8.11. God will send a famine and a thirst of hearing the word of the Lord: which when they shall seek for to and fro, and find no where, it shall come to pass that virgins and young men shall faint with thirst, and fall, and never rise again. Now, that the corruption of the word doth hurt too, the Apostle noteth in advertising Timothee, that n 1. Tim. 6. ver. 3. they, who teach other doctrine, and consent not to the wholesome words of Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, o ver. 4. are * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. sick, and do dote about noisome follies, which edify not to godly faith: in so mu●h that p ●. Tim. 2.17. their word doth fret as a kind of canker, which having taken hold of one part of the body, doth eat out the next parts by little & little, until the whole body at last be clean consumed. Which if it come to pass, as it must of necessity unless the better remedy be speedily provided for healing of the body: that which was a body, doth become a carcase, and is no longer a church: it is left destitute of the spirit of God, which is the soul thereof, and of the soul's instrument, that is, the word of God. And this death is threatened by Christ to the jews (in the old church) refusing him their Messiah; q Mat. 21. ●●. therefore shall the kingdom of God be taken from you, and given to a nation which shall bring forth the fruits of it: and (in the new church) to the Ephesians having left their first love; r Reu. 2.5. I will come against thee shortly, & will remove thy candlestick out of his place except thou amend. Which two things foretold by our saviour Christ were fulfilled in the destruction of the two churches: of the church of the jews, within a few years, when the gospel was removed from them to the Gentiles; of the church of Ephesus, many ages after, when having been sick first of sundry heresies, it died a while ago of the plague of Mahomet. Thus I have declared, as briefly as I could, how particular churches are called members of the catholic: how they are ordained to learn and practice Go●s service: how the good in them are intermingled with the bad, the godly with hypocrites: finally, what their health is, what their diseases be, and when they must be counted sound, when unsound. Which points being marked, my pains will be the lesser in opening the Conclusion: the two stems whereof on what roots they grow you perceive already. The church of Rome is not the catholic church: it is no sound member of the catholic church. The church of Rome is not the catholic church. What can be more clear? For the catholic church is the church universal: the church of Rome is particular. So that (in my judgement) the Papists speak monstrously, when 1 As Bristol Moriu. 12. with this special note in the m●rgent of his book, Note▪ the Roman church the catholic church. they call the Roman church, the catholic church, and make them all one. Some will say perhaps, that when they call it catholic, they mean it to be sound and of a right belief, such as doth hold the catholic faith: as the s Cod. de s●mma Trin. & ●ide cathol. civil law doth term the right believers, catholic Christians, and the church of Africa is named catholic by t Epist. 55. ad Co●nelium Cyprian. Yet that is false too. For they give the title of catholic church of Rome, that 2 〈…〉 by ●he epistle of Cardinal Cusanus written to the Bohemians. Cochlaeus hi●●or. Mussitar. lib. 11. they may put into the heads of the unskilful that that is the church out of which there is no salvation. But out of the church of Rome there have been saved innumerable, & shall be: out of the catholic church, not one. But let it be granted that they mean by [catholic] a church holding the right faith. I deny that the church of Rome doth hold the right faith: and that is the other part of my Conclusion; it is no ●ound member of the catholic church. Now when I deny it to be a sound member of the catholic church: I mean not that it languisheth of a little sickness or disease not dangerous, which may seem rather to have abated somewhat of exquisite health, then have bereft her of all health. For, as u De sa●it. turned. lib. 1. cap. ●. & 5. Galen teacheth of the health of the body, that it hath a reasonable breadth as you would say, and certain degrees as it were of perfectness, that they who are able to go about their business and do affairs of life are to be counted whole, though they enjoy not a most perfect health: so in the health of churches I deem there are certain degrees of sincerity, that they who do the functions of spiritual life reasonably well are to be counted ●ound, although they attain not to a most absolute soundness. And for that cause, as we judge our own churches to be sound, although x Appendix Apolog. eccles. Angl. there remain some distemper in them by the relics of those diseases wherewith the contagion of the church of Rome had cast them down so, that they could not yet be recovered fully: in like sort y Apologia eccles. Angli●a● we judge of the churches of Germany, which are troubled with the error of consubstantiation as it were with the grudging of a little ague, if other wise they hold Christian faith, and love, sound, and sincerely. But the church of Rome is not distempered with a little ague, such as hindereth not the functions of life greatly: but is sick of a canker, or rather of a leprosy, or rather of a pestilence, in so much that she is past hope of recovery, unless our Saviour Christ the heavenly physician do give her wholesome medicines to purge her of pernicious humours. And therefore I pronounce that the church of Rome is no sound member of the catholic church. Which I will prove by two reasons, the one, of the causes; the other, of the effects: whereof from the one, diseases do arise; in the other, they show themselves; by them both they are surely proved. I would to God I might discourse hereof at large, according as the weightiness of the things requireth. But we must be content to do, as time will licence us. You will pardon me therefore, I trust, if I run them over somewhat hastily, and (as they say) touch and go. I will hold out my finger toward the well head: guess you the lion by his paws. Concerning the causes which do breed diseases and sickness in the church, it is (as I have touched already) clear and certain, that they are either the want of food of God's word, or the having of it corrupted. In the which respect, Christ, who giveth charge that z joh. 21.16. his sheep be fed, chargeth that a Matt. 28.20. they be taught to observe those things which he commanded his Apostles. And Peter, having showed that b 1. Pet. 1.23. the faithful are begotten a new by God's word, exhorteth them to c 1. Pet. 2.2. desire the milk of the word, the sincere milk, & * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. not corrupt with any trumpery, that they may grow thereby. And they who are warned d Matt. 23. ●. to hear the Pharises sitting in the chair of Moses, are warned e Matt. 16.6. to beware of the leaven of the Pharises. Wherefore a church, that will be whole and sound, must neither be famished with want of God's word, nor have it corrupted. But the church of Rome doth bring in both corruption, and want of the word: nor only bring them in, but also maintain them obstinately, as wholesome. The church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound: nay she seemeth rather to be mad & frantic. For she bringeth in corruption of the word, (to begin with that,) by mingling and adulterating the word of God with man's word, not one way but sundry. First, in that she giveth f Concil. Trident. Sess. 4. authority canonical, that is divine authority, to the books called apocrypha, which are human. Against the truth of the holy scripture, which is gainsaid flatly by g 3. ●sdr. 4.43. & 5.73. Ecclesiastic. 46.23 & 48.10. 2. Mac. cap. 1.19. & 2.1. certain points in the apocrypha: against the clear evidence of things therein recorded, h 4. Esdr. 10.20. & 2. Maccab. 2.4. 1. Maccab. 1.16. & 9.5. touching Antiochus. Se● the Annotations of Franciscus junius on the Apocrypha. which by their repugnancy one unto another do show that men were authors of them against the consent & judgement of the church, of the i The Church of the jews. Hier. praefat. in judith & caet. lib. apocr. josephus c●nti. Apion. l. 1. Andrad. desens. fid. Trid. lib. 3. old church wholly, and of the k council. L●●d. can. 59 Athana. in synopsi sacra● scripturae. Nazianzen. in carminib Epiphan. lib. de mensur. & ponder. Hieron. praesat. in libr. Sol●m. best part of the new. Secondly, in that she receiveth l Concil. Trid. Sess. 4. traditions of men with equal reverence and religious affection, as she doth the scripture. As though m 2. Tim. 3.16. See the first Conclusion. the holy scripture, the most exact & perfect squire of God's will, and rule of righteousness and wisdom, sufficed not for faith and manners: or the spirit of God could gainsay himself, which must be imported by this of traditions, some whereof do fight one against another, some against the scripture. In soothe this point is handled with a dutiful care and regard of scripture, which hath no greater reverence at Rome, than traditions: and that all traditions are not observed there, it is plain by n Ba●il. de spir. sanc●. cap. 27. Epiph. haer. 7●. the Fathers whom o Bristol Mo●. 9 & 46. & Andr. ●●fen. fid. Trid. lib. 2. themselves allege. Thirdly, in that she willeth p Concil. Trid. Sess. 4. the Latin translation of the Bible (commonly called S. jeroms) to be received throughout as sacred and canonical, and not to be refused on any pretence. Whereas yet (to let go the judgement of S. q Comment. in prophet. & nou. ●estam. jerom, & other r August. de doctr. Christian. l. 16.2. cap. 15. Hilar. in Psal. 2. & the rest who prefer the translation of the seventy interpreters. See August. de civit. Dei. lib. 18. cap. 43. ancient Fathers,) the Papists themselves, such as are most expert in the tongues amongst them, acknowledge that translation to have miss sometimes the meaning of the holy Ghost, and not the words only. Even s In epist. ad Clement. sept. Pagninus namely in the old testament; t Annot. prior. in Pandect. Budaeus in the new: Defence. fid. Trid. lib. 4. Andradius, and x Tom. 8. Bibli. Reg. in praefat. Arias Montanus in them both. Fourthly, in that ( y Concil. Trid. ●ess. 4. about expounding of the scripture) she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that herself holdeth, or against the Father's consenting all in one. Whereby it falleth out that the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost shall be refused often; but meanings and senses devised by men, though crossing one an other, yet if they be currant for the time, and practised, (as a z Cusan. ad Bohemos ep. 2. Cardinal saith,) shall go for authentical: the baggage, which the School men have s●iled Divinity with, out of the Philosopher's puddles and their own, shall be accounted holy: the things which some Fathers have handled more sound, shall be set aside as human inventions though they agree with God's word; but other, in the which they were overseen through weakness of natural affection or reason, shall be approved as God's word, though they proceed from man's fancy. Fifthly, in that she coopleth a Concil. Trid. ●ess. 6. cap. 10. with the commandments of God, the commandments of the church, that is to say, of men: and (that is more) she coopleth therewith these commandments, not as things indifferent, but as necessary to salvation. So what soever filth, devotion, as it is named, indeed superstition, hath brought or shall bring in, that must be deemed to be pure religion: and in vain shall the Lord be worshipped of us, b Matt. 15.9. as of the jews in old time, with the commandments of men: and good intentes (as they call them) c 1. Sam. 15.23. which are abominable to God, shall be preferred before obedience: & voluntary religion condemned by d Col. 2.23. the scriptures, shall be taken up as a most holy service of the Lord. Last of all, in that she appointeth e Concil. Tried. Sess. 25. images to be had in churches, for the instruction of the people, as books (so f Greg. registr lib. 9 ep. 9 one supposeth) which * By the word, idiotae, (which Gregory useth in this point) he meaneth the unlearned that can not read things written. Of whom he saith, that painting hath the same use for idiots, which writing hath for them that read. idiots may read in. O miserable idiots, the instructing of whom is committed to a stock, g jere. 10.8. which instructeth to vanities; whose teacher is an image, that is, h Hab. 2.18. a teacher of lies, if we believe the Prophets. And is it any marvel if they be naughty scholars, whose masters are dumb idols, the doctors of errors? The church of Rome therefore hath brought in such corruption of the word of God, what by the apocrypha, what by traditions, what by faults of the translation, what by the sense of her holding, what by commandments of the church, what by the teachers of idiots: that she seemeth to have mingled the sustenance of life not with filth, but with poison; and the wine of God not with water, but with venoome; and the bread of Christ not with leaven, but with ratsbane, or rather (if I might speak so) mens-bane. As for want of God's word, (which is the other cause of sickness) how wretchedly she hath pined her children therewith: our ancestors felt by long experience, and aged men may remember, and histories of the church do witness, and they who are under the Popish yoke know. For though she permitted, sometimes, in some places, perhaps, a small parcel, of the word of God, (if I may call that God's word which savoured more of men's devices then of God) to be touched, in the presence and assembly of the people, by common criers, preachers, such as they were: yet she hath not only not permitted to Christians, but also hath hindered, with no less impiety than inhumanity, yea, and hindereth still that abundance and plenty which they ought to have, as it is written, i Col. 3.16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you plenteously with all wisdom. For whereas this plenty is gotten & obtained by two special means, to weet, by hearing, & by reading; the one commanded all in Church-assemblies publicly, the other allowed privately to every man at home, both used and approved by the rules of k Deu. 6.9. & 11.18. & 31.11. Luke. 11.28. Reu. 1.3. the holy Ghost, and the practice of l Nehem. 8 9 Luk. 4.17. Act. 8.30. & 13.15. & 17.11. holy companies, and the judgement of m All the ancient Churches: as appeareth by jerom, Epist. ad Laetam. de institut. filiae. ad Demetr. de virgin. ad Fur. de viduit. seruand. By Chrysost. In joan. homil. 16. Prooemio in epist. ad Rom. In epist. ad Col. hom. 9 and the rest of the Fathers. holy churches: our Romanists pretending that horrible confusion will ensue thereof, and the church of Christ shall be like to Babylon, not to jerusalem, (as Cardinal n Dialog. de sacr. vern. legend. Hosius saith), if the holy scriptures be read in mother tongues, do keep them sealed up in a strange tongue, and sound them out so in their Church-assemblies, that the people may have eyes, and not read them; ears, and not hear them. In the which fact whither they show themselves more disobedient to God, or injurious to the people; it is hard to say: sith God hath expressly commanded that o 1 Cor. 14.26. all things must be done to edify, that is, to build up; and things not understood (I trow) build not up, p Gen. 11.7. no not the tower of Babylon. But by this means the people can not hear the word of God publicly, because he speaketh to them in an outlandish tongue, and a strange language. Which thing q isaiah. 28.11. the Lord laid on the jews for a punishment: the Roman Church doth thrust it on Christians for a benefit. Much less are they able privately to read it: because they neither have the scriptures translated into their mother tongues; and many (in the time of our predecessors) were condemned as heretics, for reading part thereof which they had translated. Wherefore sith the plenty of the word of God, which it is a point of very heinous wickedness not to procure for Christians, more heinous not to allow it them, most heinous not to permit it them, is not only not permitted but hindered by the Church of Rome, and hindered not only by laws but by fire too: I will not use sharper words against her tyranny; only this I say, that he must be impudent needs who would deny that she hath brought in a famine of the word. The causes then of sickness, are manifestly found in the Church of Rome, both for the corruption and scarcity of the food of life. Now, such as the cause is, such is the effect: and out of bitter fountains there issue bitter waters. The less marvel is it that her effects and functions bewray sore diseases, such as must of likelihood proceed from such causes. For a sound and whole Church, the faculties and powers whereof are not impaired, hath four special functions, as r Chief the Acts of the Apostles, and the epistles to the Corinthians, & Timothee. Act. 2. ●●. & 10.33. & 20.7. 1. Cor. 5.4. & 11. ●0. & 14.26. & 15.2. & 16.2. 1. Tim. 2.1. & 3.15. and so forth through the ●est. the scriptures show: namely, to teach the faith, to minister the sacraments, to pray, and practise discipline according to the word of God. But neither is the faith of Christ purely taught, nor sacraments rightly ministered, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duly practised by the Church of Rome. The Church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound: no more than was his daughter who said unto Christ, s Mark. 5.23. my daughter is at the point of death. For, to say a little of each of these in order, the sum of the doctrine of the Christian faith is the salvation of the faithful by jesus Christ the lamb of God. Of the which salvation t Eph. 2.4. the beginning cometh from the grace of God, u Rom. 3. 2●. the substance consisteth in the righteousness of God, x Eph. ●. ●. the end is referred to the glory of God by the holy scriptures. This holy religion which maketh God all in all for our salvation, giving the whole to him and taking it from men, that we may trust not in flesh but in the Lord only, doth savour of Christian modesty too much, it contenteth not the Roman pride and arrogancy. And therefore as Prometheus (in y He●od. in Theogonia. the Greek fables) is said to have allotted part of a sacrifice to jupiter, part to himself: even so the Prometheus of the Popish Church (in the Roman faith) assigneth and referreth the beginning of our salvation in part to God's grace, in part to the power of nature; the substance of our salvation in part to God's righteousness, in part to man's merits; the end of our salvation in part to God's glory, in part to the honour and worship of creatures. Neither is this done by some one Prometheus, or Epimetheus rather: but by the whole company of the Epimetheans, even the Council of Trent, though closely sometimes to cover their deceit with darkness, yet so, that z Catechism. e. dit ex 〈◊〉. Concil. Triden. Andrad in orthod. explicat. Ruard. Tapp. in artic. Theolog. Lovan. Card. Hosius in confess. Petricou. Ius canonicum. their expositors bring their hidden meanings out into the light. For, first and foremost, a Council▪ Trid. Sess. 6. cap. ●. they will have the natural power and ability of their own will (freewill they term it) to be concurrent (as they speak) with the grace of God, that is, a party-worker with it: as if God did only relieve the will being weak, and raise it up being faint, not renew it being corrupted, and repair it being perished. Besides, b cap. 6. Hos. confes●. Petricou. c. 73. See Ke●●nicij examen concilij Trident. they imagine that infidels and faithless men do certain works (they call them works of preparation) in which, though being done without faith, they sin not; nay, they procure the grace of God thereby. So they bring to pass as much as lieth in them, at least they endeavour, what by the power of freewill, what by their works of preparation: that all be not attributed to 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. the grace of God, which grace is with them, as c 1. Cor. 15. ●0. Paul saith of himself, but to 2 Gratia Dei mecum. the grace of God with them, (as those words of Paul are ill expressed in d In the Latin translation commonly named S. Jerome. Though in this point S. jerom vari●th from it. For he translateth it well, not grat●a Dei me●u●▪ but g●●tia Dei quae ●ecum est. Con●. Pel●gia●●. ●. c. 3. their translation,) that is, some what to God's grace, and somewhat to their own merit, at least as to * 〈◊〉 by the 〈◊〉▪ Meritum co●grui. a merit of meetness and conveniency. As for the righteousness of God, which is given us in Christ, while we are cleansed from our sins and acquitted as righteous before God's judgement-seat by the sacrifice of Christ offered for the faithful, and the obedience of Christ imputed to the faithful: c 〈◊〉. Trid. 〈◊〉. c●p. 7. & 〈…〉. they contemn this righteousness, yea and condemn it as heretical. In the steed whereof as of a vain righteousness, or at least to it as to a righteousness unperfit, they put the righteousness of men, consisting of their own works and merits of worthiness: works and merits, wrought by the grace of Christ, they will say, I grant; yet of their own works, and 1 〈…〉. merits of worthiness, (as the Schoolmen name them,) that is to say, the worthiness whereof doth deserve and merit everlasting life. That so they may enjoy it, 2 〈…〉 elec. no●ynam. Malto na●que g●oriosia, e●t i●●os quasi victores & t●●●mphatores c●m pol●●dere, ●anquam pal●●● suis sudo●●bas debitam. not of gift, but of duty; by their own merit, not by Christ's; as triumphers, not as suitors; not as beggars, but as conquerors: after the glorious vant of the f In explicat. 〈◊〉. Theol. 〈◊〉 ●●pper. som. 2. Artic. 9 Lovan-divinitie. To that which purpose they do not extenuate only the worthiness of the merits of Christ, in so much that they supply the weakness thereof g Concil. Trid. Sess. 14 cap. 8. & 9 Sess. 21. cap. 9 Sess. 22. cap. 2. & 6. Sess. 25. Decr. de Purgat. & de indulgent. with their own merits, & other men's; with due works, and undue; with Masses, Trentals, Pardons, Pilgrimages, with treasures of the church, with prayers of the Saints, finally, wit satisfactions while they are alive, and after death with pains to be endured in Purgatory: but also they extol and lift up to the sky the worthiness of their own merits, professing most proudly that h Sess. 6. cap. 11. they are able to do the law of God perfectly, and i cap. 16. truly to merit everlasting life: yea, k Sess. 21. cap. 9 Hos. confess. Petric. cap. 48. Extra. c. unigenitus. de paenit. & remiss. to do more than they are bound by God's law, even works (as they term them) of supererogation, thereby to help * Mat. 25.8. foolish virgins with their oil. And hence it cometh too, that they do no less extenuate their own sins, than they extol their own virtues: neither make they only l Conc. Trid. Sess. 14. cap. 5. venial sins of mortal, and change m Sess. 25. de reg. cap. 1. See Clementin. can. Exivi. de verb. significat. the commandements of God into counsels: but also deny n Sess. 5. de peccat. original. artic. 5. concupiscence to be sin, acquitting fleshly lusts (wherewith we being pricked do rebel against the Lord) from gilt of transgression. By the which doctrine, how much so ever they add to their own merits, or take away from their own sins, while they go about to be justified by works: yet gain they nothing else but that with a wonderful tormenting of conscience they mistrust still, and stand in doubt of their salvation. Which thing themselves deny not: o Sess. 6. cap. 9 ca 13. & 16. nay, they teach that they ought to doubt, and mistrust, because they know not whether they have merits enough. So that we may justly say that their doctrine is not a doctrine of faith, and belief, but of mistrust, and doubt rather. And what marvel is it, that they, who pluck away so much from the grace and righteousness of God, do abate no less of the glory of God? whose worship and honour they communicate and impart, I say not p Sess. 2 5 in●●cat. & venerat. Sanctor. with Saints, with elect Angels, with the blessed Virgin, q Sess. 5. art. 5. & 6. can. 23. whom they make equal to Christ in being free from all sins: but (which is more shameful) r Sess. 25. l●● reliq. sanctor. & sacris imag. with relics, with images, with scurf of all scurf, and things most vile and contemptible, against the Lord's commandment s Mat. 4.10. God only shalt thou serve. t The Schoolmen upon the Master of the sentences. lib. 3. distinct. 9 They make a distinction (I grant) that to these things they give a lesser honour, called Dulia: but the greater honour called Latria, they give to God only. Which is vain and false. For they give the greater honour, even Latrîa, not only to u Concil. Trident. Sess. ●3. cap. 5. the sacrament of the body of Christ, the consecrated bread, wherein they will excuse themselves because * As Bristol calleth it, My Lord and my God. Motiu. 16. And D. Allen, Dominum nostrum & De●m nostrum. De sacrific. Eucharist. cap 41. they hold it to be their Lord and God: but also to the cross of Christ, the wooden cross, nay to the image thereof, as x In Summ. Theol. pa●t. 3. quaest. 25. art. 4. Thomas of Aquine their Angelical Doctor teacheth and confirmeth by the practice of the church, and y Comment. in Summ. Thom▪ Aquinat. Cardinal Caietan liketh it, nor doth z In orthodox. explicat. lib 9 Andradius deny it, but defend it stoutly. Wherefore sith the doctrine of the faith of Christ doth set forth unto us our wretchedness, and God's goodness; our naughtiness, and God's mercy; that we, through the knowledge of God and of ourselves, thinking of him religiously, and of ourselves modestly, may conceive assured trust, that salvation is given us in Christ, by the grace of God, through the righteousness of God, to the glory of God: can there be any fellowship & communion between this doctrine & the doctrine of the faith of Rome, which planteth superstition, in steed of religion; pride, in steed of modestly; doubting, in steed of trusting; a Pharisaical vanity, in steed of Christian piety, that is (at one word) unfaithfulness, in steed of faith? Now, what shall I say touching the sacraments? how a Concil. Tried. Sess. 7. de sac●am. in gen. can. 1. & ●. & 11. & 1●. those holy rites delivered us by Christ to seal the grace of God unto us, have been increased in number, impaired in virtue, depraved with errors, polluted with ceremonies, defiled with men's inventions, and spoiled of their fruit by reason they were ministered in a strange tongue. With the which anoyances to let pass in silence how greatly and grievously the romanists have hurt baptism, whereof the substance yet and as it were the life hath been preserved whole and sound through God's mercy: they have corrupted the supper of the Lord so foully, with so great and many errors and abuses, that there is almost no token of his supper to be found in it. For they have made of a sacrament, b Se●s. 12. cap. 1. & 2. a sacrifice; not a sacrifice of thanks giving, but propitiatory; nor propitiatory as representing Christ, but truly and properly propitiatory; to be offered by a masspriest, as by a new Priest after the order of Melchisedec; and offered not only for the quick, but for the dead too; nor for the quick and dead only to save them, but also to rid 1 To which use they have a 〈◊〉 called ●●e Mass of S. Antony. their pigs from diseases, and to serve their turn for 2 As if a poor woman's hen ●e sick or lost, ●e may procure whatsoever other chares. Mass to be said for it. A●an. de sacrific. Eucharist. c. 32. They offer up anew that * Heb. 7.27. & 9.28. & 10.12. one and only sacrifice, which being once offered hath sanctified us for ever, and make the death of Christ to be of no effect. They take away the human nature of Christ by the c Concil. Trident. Sess. 13. cap. 1. real presence. They take away the holy sign, that is the sacrament, by d cap. 4. transubstantiation. They take away the right use of the communion by their e Sess. 22. cap. 6. private Masses. They take away the ordinance of our Lord and Saviour, they take away the singular comfort of the faithful, they take away a most sweet pledge of salvation, by their maimed f Sess. 21. cap. 2. communion under one kind. They take away almost religion itself, at least they profane it with a cursed custom of superstition more than heathenish, in that they carry a cake (the body of Christ they call it) about g Sess. 13. cap. 8. in processions, to be worshipped as God: and before the Pope h Ceremoniar. Rom. eccles. lib. 1. sect 2.5. & 12. they mount it on a horse, with 1 Which are carried before: as when judas toake Christ. joh. 19.3. lanterns, and 2 Hanging and sounding about the horse's neck, as they use on bel-weachers. a bell, in a manner as i Xenoph. Cyr. paed. lib. 8. Q. Curt. lib. 3. the Persians did carry fire (their God) before the king of Persians. As for public prayers, ordained to this end, that the people of God banding themselves together (as Tertullian speaketh) might do their suit & service to God with joined force: the romanists not contented to rob God of his honour by praying to creatures, yea to dumb creatures (which is more abominable) oil, k In Apologet. stones, l Concil. Trid. Sess. 25. De invocat. & ve●erat. sanctor. Andr●d. orthod. expl. lib. 9 crosses, images, saying to a stock, thou art my father, and to a stone, thou hast brought me forth, like ᵐ the idolaters in jeremy; n Concil. Trid. Sess. 22. cap. 8. they rob the people of God both of a duty, and of an aid, by praying in a strange tongue; wherein neither can they pray together with them, nor be stirred up thereby to true devotion. For it is a small fault in these men, to o Sess. 25. Decr. de purgator. pray for the dead, that they may be rid out of the pains of Purgatory: & 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Matt. 6.7. to babble in praying with vain repetitions, p The book entitled jesus▪ Psalter printed at Antwerp by Fowler. as if God were served By 2 Qui ●ilo insertis nu●era●t sua 〈◊〉 baccis. Bapt●●t. Man●uan. Alfonsi lib. 4. reckoning up their mutteringes upon a pair of beads. Though these things are also beside the word of God: and q Rom. 10.17. therefore not of faith: & r Rom. 14.23. therefore of sin. Yet in these men they are small faults: at least they have some colour either of old custom, or of man's reason, or of zeal without knowledge. But to pray to God in words not understood, like popinjays, or parrots, it is so absurd a matter in reason, so wicked in religion, so contrary to the express s 1. Cor. 14. ver. 37. commandment of the Lord, & t ver. 19 judgement of the Apostle, and u ver. 16. justin. & Tertul in apolog. History ecclesiast. practise of the church, I say not of the church of the jews, or of the Syrians, or of the Greeks, or of the Latins, but the church generally, even of all churches from the beginning of the world till the dark ages in which the Barbarians of late did overflow them: that such as do use it, may be thought to dote; such as defend it, seem to have a lust to be mad with reason. It remaineth for me to entreat of discipline: whereof this is the order set down in the scripture, that the church should be governed x Num. 3.10. Heb. 5.4. by the ministers of God, y Exod. 25.30. Matt. 28.20. according to the laws of God, z 1. Cor. 12.7. Eph. 4.12. to the salvation of God's people. And what one of these points is kept in the church of Rome? In the which the ministers of God are removed from governance by the Pope: who, being not a voluntary Senator (as a Philippie 13. Tully jesteth at Asinius) himself chosen by himself, but a voluntary tyrant, doth take upon himself the rule of the whole church. Who to get the sovereignty that he aspireth to, doth cast off the folly of b Rom. 13.1. Paul, and of c 1. Pet. 2.13. Peter: and d c. significasti. c. si diligenti. de ●oro compet. neither will himself, nor suffereth his to be subject unto higher powers. Who e c. ad Apostolicae. de re iudic. in sexto. ●lement. c. Pastoralis. de re iudic. Franc. Gomar. in hist. occident. Ind. cap. 101. autoriseth himself to give and take away the dominions and kingdoms of the whole world, as if that all Princes held their right of him. Who challengeth f Extra. c. unam sanctam. de maiorit. & obedient. the two sword (as he termeth them,) the spiritual and temporal, and that by the gospel, because it was said (for sooth) by the Apostles, g Luk. 22.38. Behold, her● are two sword. Who, having committed the temporal sword in part to civil magistrates, and reserved it in part to himself; h Dist. 1●. amp; 21▪ & 22. c. sign ficasti. de elect. hath put up the spiritual sword of all Pastors into his own sheath. Who of church-ministers hath made himself i Onuphr. de orig. Cardin. Cardinals, k Cerem. eccl. Rom. lib. 1. & 3. fellows of kings, guardians of Princes, Protectors of nations, a Senate meet for such a ●arquin. Who exacteth an oath of l Clement. c. Romani. de iureiurand. Emperors, of m ●●o N. episcopal. de iu●e●iur. Bishops, of n Council Trid. Se●s. 25. de relo●●. c. 2. & Bulla Pij quart. de iuram. form. in open. Concil. Tried. Christian common wealths, Universities, and Churches to be obedient unto him. Who o Ceremon. Rom▪ e●cles. l. 1. sect. 5. admitteth, I say not p Act. 10.26. Cornelius the Centurion, (which Peter yet would never have done,) but the Lords of Centurions, even Kings and Kaiser's, Emperors and Empresses, to kiss his blessed feet. Finally, who q Ceremon. Rom. eccl. & Platin. de vit. Pont. being in Princely attire, and accompanied with Princely train; served not by common, but by noble men; wearing, not a single, but a tripl● Crown; s Canonist. extra. johan. vigefim. secund. cap. ●um inter. In Glossa. called by his Parasites 1 Dominus Deus noster Papa. our Lord God the Pope, t Thom. Stapleton. in Princip. ●●d. doctr. Praef. ad Greg. decimum tert. Marian. Victor. in Tom. 4. operum Hi●ron. Praef. ad Pium quint. by discreet Doctors, 2 Optimus. Maximus: that is, (as Tully expoundeth it) Optimus boni●ate, potestate Maximus. ● title, which was given to none of old time, but to God only: no not amō● the Heathens. Now the Papists give it to the 〈…〉. Alphonsi 〈…〉 de consid▪ add Eugen. lib. 4. most good in grace, most great in power; u Platin. 〈◊〉 it. Pont●in Pagl. secund. as full of riotous pomp, and pride, as ever were the Persian kings; ᶻ His clothes bedecked with precious stones, ●his gorgeous mitre dight With jewels rare, r Bapt. Mantuan. ad Inn●cent. octau. with glistering gold, & with * A precious stone, called a Carbuncle. Of the which kind one that tell out of the Pope's mitre (by a mischance at his coronation) was worth six thousand crowns. Platin. in vit. Clement. quint. Pyropus bright, O very Trojan trulls, not Troyans': hath taken the state ecclesiastical of Christ, appointed in noble order as an army set in array, and hath transformed it as it were with an enchantment of the whore of Babylon into a 3 As Sanders termeth it in his books of the 〈…〉. visisible monarchy, and 4 As it is named by Turrian the jesuit, De ecclesia & ordinat. ministr. l. 1. c. 2. kingdom of the Romans. And that the old saying might be fulfilled, new Lords, new laws; such lips, such lettuce, (as one said of an ass that was eating thistles:) this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new laws to govern his kingdom, in steed of God's laws which Christ would have to rule his Church; and in steed of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordained his Canon law. Touching the unrighteousness of the which law, (lest any man should think me perhaps to find fault with that I have no skill in, as the shoemaker did, whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shoe:) I had leiffer you should hear the judgement of a learned Doctor and professor of the law, then mine. Francis Duaren, a man of great skill in both the laws, civil, and canon, and named amongst lawyers the chiefest lawyer of our time, hath written a learned treatise touching the holy functions and livings of the Church, as it were an abridgement of the canon law: allowed by the judgement of the Parliament of Paris●, and set forth with the privilege of the French king, that no man can justly 〈◊〉 either the author, or the work, as heretical. In c Praesat. Franc. ●●aren. in lib. de facris ecclesiae ministerijs a● beneficijs. 〈…〉 then of the said treatise, declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts, to weet, Decrees, and 〈◊〉 Decrees, which were gathered together by Gratian; 〈◊〉, epistles written by sundry Popes: he saith, that in the ●ir●t volume of Decretales, containing five books set out in the name of Gregory the ninth, there are many things that do much degenerate and grow out of kind from that old discipline comprised in the former book of Decrees. And hence arose that saying, which is common and famous amongst our countrymen, (he meaneth the Frenchmen:) Things have gone ill with men, * In Latin it is, ex quo decretis alae aecesserunt: that is, word forword▪ since wing; were added to decrees. But to express in English the allusion which the Latin saying hath (in decretis and alae) to decretales: I have changed the word. Yet keeping just the sense. For those wings are tales, devices of ambitious Popes, and foolish fancies of their Parasites. since tales were added to Decrees, that is, since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did bear sway. For the Church-causes had lost their old simplicity, when Decrees were patched out with those tales: as the world is wont to grow worse and worse, So destinies do provide That all things fall unto decay, and back efisoones they slide. As for the other volume, the sixth book of Decretales, which Bo●iface the eighth added, it hath not been received in the kingdom of France, because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to have been purposely made (the most part of them) in hatred and despite of Philip the French king, and for the game of the court of Rome. No not the Clementines neither, nor Extravagants, the last part of the Decretales, are void of like faults: nay, the later laws of the Popes be commonly worse than the former. And this is the body of the Canon-law, these are the Pope's statutes, by the which, though very unmeet for the church (in Duarens judgement) yet is the church of Rome governed: and it is so governed, that d Lancelot. in comment. instit. jur. Can. lib. 3. the Decrees (which are the better part) have less authority; the Decretales (which are worse) have greater force in Church-causes, and are more authentical Yea, the matter came to that pass, that e Distinct. 19 in canoni. is. Gratian the principal author of the Canon law, would have had 1 Inter canonicas scriptura● decretales epistolae connumerantur. the Decretal epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy, and reckoned in the number of the Canonical scriptures. For the better compass and credit whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of f De doctr. Christian. l. 2. c. 8. S. Augustine's. But it would not ●ay. In so much that the Papists, g Adverse. haer. lib. 1. cap. 2. Alfonsus, and h Defence. ●id. Trid. l. 3. Andradius, are themselves ashamed of that his, either wilful fault, or oversight. The Decretales therefore remain, not in the number of the Canonical scriptures, which hope the Giants failed of through the division of their tongues: yet equal in authority to the canonical scriptures, yea, above them, in deciding Church-causes at Rome. For that which S. 1 De consid. ad ●ugen. lib. 1. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since, he might complain off to any Pope in our time, if he were alive: the laws keep a great stir daily in your Palace, 2 Leges, sed justiniani, non Domini. but the laws of justinian, not the laws of the Lord. Whether justly or no: look you to that. For doubtless the law of the Lord is undefiled, and converteth souls. But these are 3 Non tam leges quam lights, & cavillationes. not so much laws as law-quarels, and strifes subverting judgement. Besides that, the manner of dealing which is used in debating causes is 4 Execrabilis plané. too too abominable, and such as is marvelous unseemly for the church: nay it were not seemly for the common place, where civil matters are handled. He meaneth that manner, which k Practic● Cancellar. Apost. the Pope's Court of Chancery at Rome had bred long before, l Lud. Gom●s. proaem. regular. Cancel. Apost. though it were not grown yet to that bigness to which it shot up afterward: even that manner of dealing, which is practised m Bernard. de consid. ad Eugen. lib. 1. & 3. in the brabbles and cavils of advocates, fit to subvert then to find the truth; in the pleas of lawyers, who bring in sleights of falsehood and fraud against innocency, stop up the ways of judgement, beat down the simplicity of truth; in dilatory shifts, and other such instruments of making gain by suits, which came from the laws, but from the laws of justinian (as Bernard saith) not of the Lord. These are the laws then which the Pope useth, and useth, to what end? which is the last point. He useth them, not to further the salvation of God's people, but to satisfy (if yet * Prou. 30.15. ●eue, give. a horseleech might be satisfied) his own and his Courtiers unsatiable covetousness, ambition, and lust. For what hath the outrageous tyranny of the beast respected else but that, in the Church-offices, Church-censures, and Church-causes? Why hath he withdrawn suits from other places to the Court of Rome? Why hath he reserved cases to himself? Why hath he dispensed with laws at his pleasure? why hath he made and unmade them? He hath taken into his own hands n Cancellariae Apostolicae regula 2. and the rest which follow. the elections of Bishops from them whom they belonged to. The Christian ministers, magistrates, and people he hath rob and spoiled of their due and right. He hath committed the feeding and guiding of the flock of Christ to brute and beastly creatures. He hath let and set the charge, or the commodity rather, of churches, as he would himself, and to whom he would, o For the particulars hereof, and their grounds: see Institut. juris canon. & Franc. Duar. de sacr. eccles. minist. acben. & Gentian. Heruet. de reparand. ecclesiast. discipline. by presentations, preventions, provisions, reservations, translations, permutations, advowsons, & commendaes. He hath ordained Pastors without a room of Pastorship, Ministers without a function: benefices without cure, sacrileges without punishment. The goods of the church, that is the living of the Pastors, and maintenance of the poor, he hath impaired with pensions, embesilled with first fruits, made away with appropriations, seized on with sundry wrongs, and spent them wastefully with lusts, to the common outcries of men reproving him for p Ammian. Marcel lib. 27. pride, for q Bapt. Mant. fast. lib 5. in Vrban. riot, for r Bernard. epist. 42. ad Archiep. Senon. extortion, and for s Conc. Basileens. Sess. 21. simony. He hath not permitted the causes of the church to be debated and decided there where they arose, as equity, as reason, as peace, as the judgement of t Concil. Nicaen, can. 5. Milevit. can. 9 & 22. African. can. 92. & 105 Basil. can. 27. Counsels and u Cyprian. epist. 35. Chrysostom. ad Innocent. epist. 1. Bernard. de consid. ad Eugen. lib. 3. Fathers would he should have done: but he hath removed them thence to be heard and determined at Rome, what by x Concil. Trid. Sess. 14. cap. 7. Extra. c. etsi dominici. de panit. & remiss. reserving of cases to himself, what by y Concil. Trid. Sess. 24. cap. 20. Per speciale rescriptum signaturae Sanctitatis Sua. fetching matters 1 Sub anulo piscatoris. The Pope's privy seal called the fisher's signet, that is, S. peter's: though belike S. Peter did not fish with such. with the fisher's signet, what by z Bernard. de confid. ad Eugen. lib. 3. exempting men from their Ordinaries, what by allowing a 2. q. 6. c. ad Romanam. c. placuit ut presbyteri. Concil. Trid. Sess. 24. cap. ●0. appeals from all coasts to the Lord Apostolic. The censures of the church in excommunication ordained b 1. Cor. 5.7. to cut the wicked off (as rotten members) from the company of Christians, he hath used and exercised, not against the wicked, c Bernard. de consid. ad Eugen. lib. ●. & 3. of whom a sink hath flowed of old time to Rome, and d Bapt. Mantuan. Silver. lib. 2. Roma, quid insanis toties? overfloweth it still; not against thieves, of whom (a e Aen. silvius (called in his Popedom Pius the second) hist. de Asia. min. cap. 77. Pope witnesseth) Rome is made a den; not against murderers, f As the same Pope witnesseth in the same place. And the Bravi (in Italy) are famous with their sanctuaries. Andr. Masius in josuam cap. 20. for whom there is a sanctuary in the very houses of Cardinals at Rome; not against adulterers, whose offence was punished with death by the g Lege julia, de adulterijs: and before, by the law of Romulus. old Romans, h Concil. Trid. Sess. 24. can. 12. Dist. 83. c. Presbyter. 26. q. 7. c. tempora. 33. q. 2. c. hoc ipsum. 27. q. 1. c. Siquis episcopus. in glossa. c. At s● clerici. deiudicijs. now they are toyed with; not against whores, i Concil. delectorum Card. Surius in commentar. rer. gestar. de ●●for●at. Pij. qui●●. which set themselves to open sale under the Pope, who playeth the bawd and gaineth by it; not against whoremongers, k c. quia circa. de bigamis. whom he preferreth somewhere before married persons, and lechery before chastity, which 2 With these words (in the gloze upon that text of the Canon law:) Nota mirabile, quod pl●s habet hic luxuria, quám castitas. the Canonist noteth as a wonderful case: but he hath exercised it l c. ad Apostolicae. in sexto, touching the Emperor: of the rest, the stories of several countries show it. against Emperors, Princes, States, and nations, that would not serve him at a beck; against any m c. Si vero alicuius. de sentent. excom. magistrate that did but lay hands upon a clergyman; against any n c. pervenit. e. nuntios. de decimis. Christian, that denied his parish-priest a little tithe; against whole assemblies and companies of the faithful, o c. ad abolendam▪ de haereticis. who worshipped (as p Act. 24.14. Paul) the God of their fathers after that way, (which Papists call heresy,) believing all things which are written in the law and the Prophets. Whom he with most villainous cruelty and treachery, as if they had been sheep appointed to the slaughter, q The stories of the Church of England, France, Italy, and the Spanish inquisition. hath rid away by torments, by fire, by sword; not himself, for r joh. 19.28. he came not into the judgement hall lest he should be defiled, but s c. excommunicamus. de ●aereticis. he hath delivered them to Pilate to be crucified: and when the streams of water did flow with blood at Paris, old men and maidens and babes being murdered without all respect of sex, or age, or state, t Comment. de stat. relig. & re●p. in Gallia, lib. 10. he sang a song of joy for the French marriage, and celebrated with bonfyres and processions at Rome a most outrageous act of more than Scythian barbarousness. What should I reckon up his tyrannical laws, wherewith he hath oppressed the Church intolerably? Of u Pope Syricius (epist. 4.) out of S. Paul, Rom. 8.8. Concil. Trident. Sess. 24. can. 9 single life imposed on ministers of the word, of x Concil. Lateran. sub Innocent. tert. cap. 11. Concil. Trid. Sess. 14. cap. 5. auricular confession, of y council. Trid. sess. ●5. Dear. de delect ●ib. de dieb. fest de regular. cap. 1. Clement. cap. exivi. the choice of meats, apparel, and days, of z c. audivimus. de reliq. & vener. sanct. Cerem. Rom. eccle. lib. 1. sect. 6. Bodin. method. histor. cap. 4. the new and strange canonizing of Saints, of a c. ex multa. §. in tanta. de voto & voti redempt. pilgrimages to holy land, of b Con. Trid. sess. 25. Decr. de regularibus & monialibus. the vows of Moonkes and Nuns, of c sess. 24. can. 3.4.11. & 12. the state and rites of marriage, of d Durand. Ration. divin. officior. Ceremon. Roman. eccle. lib. 1. sect. 7 tit. Agnus Dei etc. innumerable ceremonies, partly unfruitful, partly foolish, partly impious, e Polydor. Virgil. de inventor. rerum. lib. 5. cap. 1. and so forth to the end. whereof some sprang from heathens, some from the jews, and some from heretics. What should I say of his wicked dispensations, if yet they deserve the name of dispensations, and not (as f De consid: ad Eugen. lib. 3. Bernard rather doth call them) dissipations; wherewith there is nothing so holy and religious which he hath not polluted, nothing so profane which he hath not permitted: that g King Henry the eight. a brother may marry his own brother's wife, h Philip king of Spain. an uncle his sister's daughter; that Church-offices and livings may be given i Bernard. epist. 42. ad archiep. sen. & de consid. ad Eugen. lib. 1. & 3. Practica cancellar▪ Apost. Pauli Barchin●●. to boys, to Simoniacal merchants, to unlearned persons, and such as are unfit for them; that k Distinct. 70. c. sanctorum. c. de multa. de praebendis. one man may have a plurality of benefices; that l c. relatum. de clericis non resident. c. licet canon. de ele●●. in sexto. he who hath the benefice, need not attend the office, the steward not provide meat for God's household, the servant and minister not do the work of God, the angel and messenger not show the will of God, the shepherd and pastor not feed the flock committed to him; that m c. ad Apostolicae. in sexto. De sentent. & re iud. Bulla Pij quinti contr. Regin. Angl. subjects may be discharged of their oath and fealty, & licenced to withdraw allegiance from their Prince, yea, take arms against him, yea lay violent hands on the anointed of the Lord; that n Conc. Constantien. Session. 19 c. Non obstantibus s●luis conductibus. Pope Martin the fifth: epist. ad Regem Lituan. Cochlaeus histor. Hussi●ar. lib. 5. promise may be broken with God and with men; that abominations most horrible may be committed; that all things divine and human may be perverted; right and wrong, heaven and earth, lawful and unlawful, may be confounded together. And can it be doubted but that this so monstrous, so pestilent, so misshapen foulness and corruption of laws and of discipline, was instituted and inducted by this king of Rome, not to set forward the salvation of the Church, but to fill his greedy appetite of gold and lust of dominion? Do not his own o Baptist. Man●tuan. de calamit. tempor. l▪ 3. friars witness that all things Priests, Churches, altars, sacraments, & crowns, (in Peter's fold,) Fire, incense, prayers, * C●lum est venale Deusque. heaven, and God, are set out to be sold? Do not his p Platina de vit. Pont. in Paulo secundo. A●n. silvius Cardin. epist. de moribus Germaniae. Courtiers allow of their judgement who say that the pomp of the church would be abated, which he sought to increase with annoyance of religion? Do not q Cardinals acknowledge that Christians are wiped of their goods and substance by first fruits, and other policies of the Popes, r Mat. 26.15. to the end that he and his Courtly train may be more rich in wealth, s In the defence of the Apology, part. ●. more gallant in bravery, more high in Princely state? t Ad Ludovicum undecimum, pro libertat● ecclesiae Gallicae adversus Rom. aulam defensio Parisiensis cutiae. It is pri●●ted with Duaren. de sacr. eccle. minist. Hath not all Christendom borne to their grief the yoke of the ambition and covetousness of Rome, which crieth out like judas, what will ye give me? There is extant in print the defence and Apology of the Church of England, showing fresh marks of the Roman tyranny, wherewith our country hath been seared as with a hot burning iron. There is extant a supplication of the parliament of Paris, wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions, injuries, and guiles of the Court of Rome. There are extant v C●ntum gravamina nationis Germanic. the hundred grievances of Germany, whose complaints (written as it were with their own blood) do show with what outrage the See of Rome hath thrown down, oppressed, bruised, and spoiled that most noble nation. There are extant x Bernard. in Cant. In epist. De consid. ad Eugen. & passim. Franc. Petrarch. in cant. & epist. Bapt. Man●. in Fast. Silu. ●●log. de calam. temp. & caet. Marsil. Patavin. in Defence. pacis. See Illyricus in his book entitled rests veritatis superiorum temporum contra Papam. infinite books of lamentations, written by learned men of all coasts & quarters in the midst of the Papacy: confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed. The y Concil. Trid. Sess. 6. de reformat. cap. 1. In these very terms, collapsam admodum ecclesiasticam disciplinam. Papists themselves in the Council of Trent do not confess it only, but also witness it by public writing to the world. There was gathered together a Council at Constance, about an eight score years since, z Conc. Constant. Ses. 4. & 5. that the church might be reform, both in the head and in the members. The matter, not being accomplished at Constance, was a Conc. Basil. Sess. 2. & 3. enterprised again at basil. But Eugenius the fourth (who was Pope then) could not abide the reformation, and therefore b Platin. & Onuphr. de vit. Pont. in Eugen. quart. revoked the Council of basil by messages and bulls: which sith they disobeyed, he broke it up by force of arms. And whereas there was made an 2 Which is called Pragmatica sanctio. act by the French king with his States, that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Council should be of force in France: c Franc. Dua●en. de sacr. eccles. minist l. 5. c. 11. Pius secund. epist. 375. ad regem Franciae. Conc. Latecan. sub Leon. decim. the Popes who succeeded Eugenius never rested, till they had gotten that act repealed. The last hope remained in the Council of Trent: and truly many things were decreed d Sess. 5. cap. 1. & ●1. c. 2. & 22. c. 11. & 23. c. 16.23▪ & ●. c. 17.18.19. & 25. cap. 3. there for points of reformation wisely, and worthily. But three spots of mischiefs, touched by e Gentian. Heruet. de reparanda ecclesiastica disciplina. Heruetus (a Papist, of so much the greater weight his testimony is against Papists,) do renew the old corruptions: one, that the decrees, although they were made, were not observed yet; another, that although they should be observed, yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders; the last, that although they restored the ancient orders, yet do they little good, because the Pope is not bound to laws himself, and he dispenseth with whom he list: so that medicines heal not the wounds, but make them worse, as long as the Pope may repeal, altar, pervert, and break through the decrees of the Council, with his dispensations. And, out of all doubt, that detestable clause f Concil. Trid. de reform. Sess. 9 in proaem. & Sess. 25. de reform. cap. vlt. annexed to decrees of reformation in the Council, 1 salva semper in omnibus autoritate sedis Apostolicae. provided always that the Pope's authority be safe, and no way prejudiced: doth show the Roman Church to be not only sick, but also past hope of recovering her health. For as in men's bodies the greater the spleen waxeth, the lesser wax the rest of the members, they say: so the more safe the Pope's authority is, the less safe will all parts of the Church be. 2 As Frie● Mantuan telleth Pope Leo the tenth Pastor. lib. 4. The Court of Rome with poison strong infected to destroy, With the contagion of her sores doth countries all annoy. Wherefore to knit up the sum of my reason, seeing it is manifest by the very evidence of the things themselves, that neither the faith of Christ is taught purely, nor the sacraments rightly ministered, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duly practised in the Church of Rome: if the former reason of causes seem too weak, yet is it fully proved (I hope) by the effects, that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholic church. How much more absurd were it to count her the Catholic Church. The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholic, nor a sound member of the Catholic Church. I have stayed longer in opening this Conclusion, The sixth Conclusion. than I had purposed: but I may run over the last so much the more speedily. For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases, the contagion whereof, as f Leu. 13. ver. 44. the lepers sore, because it is dangerous to them who dwell near it, must therefore g ver. 46. be removed out of the camp of the faithful: we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England, Scotland, France, Germany, and other kingdoms & common weals, have severed themselves lawfully from the Church of Rome. For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God: h Psal. 119, 17● all whose commandments are righteousness, saith the Prophet. But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandment in severing themselves from the Church of Rome. Therefore they severed themselves from the Church of Rome lawfully. For as ecclesiastical societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God, that i 1. Chron. 1●. ● 13. his elect and chosen should k ver. 11. & 12. seek him and l ●er. 8. & 29. praise him, that is, m Nehem. 8.1. Act. 2.42. learn to know him, and n Nehem. ●. 6. Act. 1.14. & 2, 42. worship him being known: so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught, or he is not served and worshipped aright, thence doth he command his servants to departed. To departed, first, from that Church-assembly, where his right faith, and knowledge is not taught: the charge is given to Timothee. Whom S. Paul o 1. Tim. 6. ver. 3 advertising of such as taught other doctrine, than he did, and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine, p ver. ●. declareth the qualities and fruits of those Matt. 7.15. wolves, and q 1. 〈◊〉. 6.5. biddeth him departed from them: from such (saith Paul) 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. depart thou: depart thou from their assembly, and Church. For so must such teachers be departed from: as himself declared by his example at Ephesus. Where r A●t. 19 ver. 8. he frequented the synagogue of the jews for the space of three months. But s ver. 9 when certain obstinate & disobedient persons spoke evil of the way of God before the multitude, he 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. departed from them, and separated the disciples. So that he severed, not himself only, but others also from that Church, wherein the way of God was evil spoken of, and men were not taught to know and believe in him aright. Now, that we must likewise departed from that Church, wherein God is not served and worshipped aright: it is written to the Corinthians. Who being admonished t 1. Cor. 10. 1●. to flee from idolatry, and from all communion with idolatrous worship, are charged 2. Cor. 6. v. 14. not to yoke themselves with idolaters in their assemblies & meetings. For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? light with darkness? x ver. 15. Christ with Belial? the faithful with the infidel? y ver. 16. the temple of God with idols? z ver. 17. Wherefore come out from among them, and separate yourselves, saith the Lord. Separate yourselves from them, saith the Lord: the Lord saith, not I The Lord saith to the jews, a Hos. 4.15. go ye not up to Beth-aven: not Hosea, but the Lord saith. It is called b That is, the house of God. Hos. 10. ●5. Beth-el, but it is c That is, the house of vanity, or of an i●●ol: Hos. 10.5 Beth-aven: d Hos. 10.8. the * That is, the chapels of Bethel, in the which the Isra●elites did commit idolatry. ●. King. 12.32. high places of Aven are the sin of Israel. Therefore go ye not up to Beth-aven, saith the Lord. Thus we are expressly commanded by God to departed and separate ourselves from those Churches, wherein the right ways, either of his knowledge, or of his worship, are perverted. Much more, from those Churches, wherein they are perverted both. But they are both perverted in the Church of Rome most notoriously: as I have declared. It remaineth then that the reformed Churches have severed themselves from the Church of Rome most lawfully & justly. And therefore our e Bristol, Demand. 1. Motiu. ●0. Stapleton. Princip. fid. doctrine. l. 4. c. 10▪ Saunder. de vi●●b. Monarc. eccles. prae●. ad Lect. English Papists and the f Annot. in tom. ●. Augustin. con●tra Dona●istas. Lovanists deal, shall I say, of ignorance, or of malice? but of whether soever, they deal very lewdly: who to make us odious for severing ourselves from the Church of Rome, as if we had played the schismatics therein, do report of us that we rend ourselves from the Catholic Church as the Donatists did. Truly, or falsely: let the faithful judge. Chief, sith it is manifest, that the g As it appeareth by S. Au●●in, 〈…〉 his ●reatises against 〈◊〉 Donatists. Donatists sound not any fault with Catholics, either for the service wherewith they worshipped God, or for the doctrine of God which they preached: but h As the Apologies and Confessions of the reformed Churches show. we have convicted the Romanists of impiety, both for their idolatrous profaning of his service, and for their ungodly corrupting of his doctrine: and these men, who blame us, do themselves teach, that no man ought to join and communicate with that Church, whose service is idolatrous, whose doctrine is ungodly: in so much that the Lovanists i Annot. in August. Breui●. collat. cum Donatist collat. di●i. 3. cap 9 reprove (& that worthily) the Catholic Bishops of Africa, k Annot. in August. post col●●tion▪ ad Donatist. c. 2●. yea S. Austin too, for saying that the Prophets Elias, and Elisaeus, resorted to the Church, and service of the Israelites when it was stained with idola●trie: and l Bristol Motiu. 32. an English Papist condemneth (though unjustly) them who hear our sermons, because it is horrible sin to give patiented hearing to blasphemies, such as (he saith) we preach. Wherefore if the Romish doctors themselves should sit in judgement upon us for trial of the schism and Donatisme (so to term it) whereof they indite us: no doubt (unless their minds were overcast in like sort as were m Act. ●3. 11. the eyes of Elymas) they would acquit us of it; and pronounce of Christians, as n joh. 19.6. Pilate did of Christ, I find no fault in him. For what have we done in forsaking their synagogue, that may deserve the check of a severe Censor, much less the condemnation of an indifferent judge? Save in this (perhaps) that, o Cicer. pro S●x. Roscio. as mad Fimbria complained of Scaevola, we received not the whole weapon into our body. The Ministers of Christ were bound to p 2. Tim. 4.2. preach the word of God. they preached it. To q Tit. 1.13. reprove the people's sins. they reproved them. To r 2 Tim. 2.3. suffer afflictions even unto the shedding of their blood. they suffered. The people of Christ were bound to s joh. 10.27. hear the pastors voice. they heard it. To t Mat. 4.10. worship God & serve him only. they did it. To u Luk. 12.8. profess their faith before men. they professed it. If against the will of Princes and Magistrates, as it fell out in France: x Act. 5.29. they ought to obey rather God than men, as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel. If by the commandment of Princes and Magistrates, which befell to England through Gods most gracious goodness, and we beseech him it may for ever: they were to obey their Princes in the Lord, as y 2. King. 23.2. the Priests, and Prophets, and people of the jews did obey josias. Wherefore seeing all the reformed Churches (not to rehearse them in particular) following the same rule which England did & France, have severed themselves from the church of Rome, in such sort as they ought by the law of God: they are not seditious because they have done, but they were sacrilegious unless they had done so; neither have we dealt as schismatics in forsaking, but others deal as heretics in following the whore: whose hearts I would to God that might pierce into, which our Saviour saith to his, touching Babylon, z 〈◊〉. 18.4. Go out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. And thus have I declared to you (reverend Sir) my judgement of the Conclusions which you proposed. In opening whereof although I have been longer, partly being moved with the weightiness of the points, and partly presuming of the patience of the hearers, then in this place is usual: yet have I purposely omitted many things which adversaries may object, because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation itself more conveniently. Psal. 51.18. Be favourable (O God) to Zion for thy good pleasure: build the walls of jerusalem. john Rainoldes to the Christian Reader. IT is now five years almost, (gentle reader) since being occasioned by order of our University to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation: I was moved to make them common unto many, that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reap some fruit of them. Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall, that, if any fault were found, he might amend it, before they were delivered to such as they were drawn for: the like have I done with mine, (though not like his,) by keeping them in Latin at home as it were, that, if any thing were justly blamed in them, it might be corrected, before I sent them abroad to English men. In the which respect, though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry friends, of whom some had translated them, requesting that I would translate them myself or suffer theirs to be printed: yet I resisted it, & hope they took it in good part. But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart: I have condescended unto their request, to do them into English, & publish them withal. The rather, because I have proved herein, that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholic faith. The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart avouched. So that, seeing he broke off conference thereon, and would not put the faith of his church to that trial, to which he had put the Pope, the head of it: the godly, who will wish that also had been handled to the confusion of all Popery, may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer, as better half a loaf (men say) than no bread. And I am the bolder to set it before them: because Doctor Stapleton & Licentiate Martin, who, as evil physicians to get themselves work, do praise unwholesome baggage above wholesome food, have discommended it. Chief, sith their dealing therein hath been such, that they have showed greater stomach than wisdom, as physicians of no value. For of four points that I find reproved by the former of them, in a Thom. Stapleton. princip. fidei doctrine. excus. Paris. 1582. the last edition of his doctrinal principles: one is, b Lib. 1. cap. 6. that I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholic, after a new sort, unskilfully, and fond. The distinction thereof c In the second, fourth, and fifth Conclusions. I grounded on the scripture: d 1. Cor. 2. 1●. fond and e Act. 17. 1●. new (it may be) to others, not to us. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stood. Wherefore if he had no stronger shot than this to discharge against it: I will bear with him; as in the rest of his taunts also. losers must have their words. another point f In the fourth Conclusion. he carpeth at, is mine exposition of holy catholic church. Which I having proved by the Papists themselves, that it must needs signify the company of the chosen alone, not mixed with wicked ones, because (by their g Catechism. Council. Trident. in exposit. Symboli. catechism) it is the body of Christ, & h Eph. 4.16. all the body of Christ is quickened by his spirit, which the wicked are not: he i Stapleton. princ. doctrine. lib. 1. cap. 11. replieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickened by his spirit, because some parts of it are so, not all the body. An answer somewhat strange: considering that the scripture, which I had alleged, saith that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. all the body of Christ is quickened so. As for that k Staplet princ. doctrine. l. 4. c. 14. he noteth of the word [Catholic,] that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sort: l Treatise of the Church, chap. 2. Philip Mornayes excellent gifts, and fruitful labours, I reverence and love. And both of us having aimed at the truth: whether hath come nearer it, m 1. Cor. 14. ver. 29. let the Prophet's judge. But if, among Prophets in the church of Christ, n ver. 30. somewhat be revealed to one, that is not to an other: this justifieth not them, o Reu. 2. ●. who say they are jews, & are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan. Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion; that the holy Catholic church which we believe is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. For touching that he addeth that he hath disproved it, by showing that the church is distinguished from heretical assemblies by the name of Catholic: he hath disproved it as sound thereby, as if he should say, that the p Epistola catholica jacobi & Petri. Catholic epistles in the new Testament, were not so called, as general, & written to no certain persons, because that other writings are named catholic also to distinguish them from heretical. The third point he taketh upon him to confute, is an argument that I made to prove my third Conclusion. q Staplet princ▪ doctrine. lib. 12▪ cap. 16. All the words of scripture be the words of truth: some words of the Church be the words of error. But he that telleth the truth always, is more to be credited, than he that lieth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more than is the Church. And to this argument (saith he) I answer briefly, that no words of the Church are the words of error, that is, that no erroneus thing is ever taught, defined, or approved, by the Church in her Bishops & Pastors teaching uniformly; in the decrees of Counsels, chief of general Counsels; in that which the Fathers teach with one consent; in her head, the Pope, defining, & delivering any thing publicly; & finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth: though severally some Bishops may privately err in teaching; and one or more Fathers may write some untrue thing, or be in some error; and somewhat even in Counsels, without the decree itself, may be said or reasoned inconueniently; and (to conclude) the Pope may be overseen privately in somewhat. But this must be certes imputed to the frailty of men, not to the Church herself. Which speech of D. Stapletons' if it be an answer unto my argument: then can I tell him a very brief way to answer my Conclusions all with one word. How? By granting them all to be true. For though it were so, that neither Bishops teaching uniformly might err, nor Fathers consenting, nor Counsels in decrees, nor the Pope in public and definitive sentence, which I both In the third Conclusion. there, & s In the Conference. Chapt. 2. Divis 2. & Chapped 7. Di●is. ●. & 7. else where have showed to be otherwise, but if it were so: yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers, and Counsels, and the Pope himself may err (as he confesseth) in this or that point, and this or that manner; he granteth that which I said, that some words of the Church are the words of error. But those words must certes (saith he) be imputed to the frailty of men, not to the Church herself. Now certes M Doctor is a merry man: who can shift an argument off with such a jest. As though the Church herself consisted not of men: and therefore must needs offend so through frailty, the men offending so. The fourth and last point wherewith t Staplet. princ. doct. l. 13. c. 9 he findeth fault, is, that amongst In the fifth Conclusion. the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholic Church, I bring this, that, touching expounding of the Scripture, she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof, which are against the sense that herself holdeth, or against the Father's consenting all in one. Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers, yea, that I affirm that it is a mark and token of a false Church to admit the joint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture: he doth me great wrong. For, though by following too much brevity in Latin, I fell into obscurity, and said not so plainly that which I would, and should, as in the English now I have: yet that which I said, doth clear me of his slander, as D. De success. ecclesiast. resp. ad Thom. Staplet. cap. 9 Fulke hath showed; whom I can better thank for his defending of me, then deserve the praise that he hath given me therein. Nay, I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome, that the fault which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their judgement in that point. For I declared strait in the words ensuing, that first she autoriseth thereby her own practice, as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture, though contrary to itself: next, she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolmen, & will have them taken for waters of life: lastly, when some Fathers gainsay her, she rejecteth them, because they all consent not and admitteth them who do make for her, as having hit the mark. Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Father's consenting all in one. The former two import that I condemn the frenzy of the Church of Rome, maintaining her Dunces and deeds against the Fathers. But y Council. Trid. Sess. 4. the serpents assembled in the Council of Trent, have set down that I spoke of (touching the expounding of the scripture) so suttilly: that a simple man would think they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture only, as the Fathers give all with one consent. Whereas in very truth they do nothing less: they disallow them rather. For whether by * Vnanimem consensum pat●um. the Father's consenting all in one, they mean the Fathers all, simply, none excepted; that consent is a Phoenix, and never will be found: or whether they mean a good number of them, as z In the Conference. Chapt. 2▪ Diuis. 2. M. Hart expoundeth it▪ they descent from senses agreed on by that number. For example, the scripture saith, a joh. 10.16. There shallbe one flock, one Pastor. The Fathers, b In johan. tract●t. 47. & de verb. Dom. serm. 49. Austin, c In johann. homil. 49. Chrysostom, d In evang. johann. l. 7. c. 6. cyril, e Epi●t ad Eua●gri●m. Jerome, & f Registr. lib. 4. epist. 36. Gregory, expound this of Christ. The church of Rome's g Pope Boniface the eight. c. unam fanctam. extra. de maiorit. & obed. As his schoolman also Thomas of Aquin doth, count errores Gr●●or. mouth expoundeth it of the Pope. The Council then of Trent condemning all senses and meanings of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth, or against the Father's consenting all in one: doth it not condemn this sense of the scripture given by the Fathers, because it is against the sense of their Church? Sure it bindeth not the Papists to maintain it. Or else D. h Princip. doctr. 〈…〉. cap. 1●. Stapleton (I trust) should be censured, for placing the Pope in the one pastors seat. Wherefore if they, who hold not the senses that the Fathers give of the scriptures, be the false Church, as i lib. 13. cap. 9 he teacheth us: the false Church and the Church of Rome may claim kindred. And thus much of the Doctor. The k Greg. Martin. in the preface of his discovery. Licentiate followeth him in the same steps, reproving a speech of mine, touching Cyprian. Whose praise of the Romans, that unfaithfulness cannot have access to them, being stretched by Sanders to prove that the Church of Rome cannot err: l In my preface to the Conclusions. I, having showed the contrary by scripture, did add, What? and was Cyprian of an other mind? Pardon me o Cyprian: I would believe thee gladly, but that believing thee I should not believe the word of God. Hereon, M. Martin, to advantage his cause, first abuseth m Epist. 55. ad Co●●elium. Cyprian, saying, that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot err in faith. Which he affirmeth not. But whereas the Novatian heretics at Carthage had made themselves there a Bishop in schism, and to get him credit with the Church of Rome had written thither falsely, that he was allowed by five & twenty Bishops: Cyprian, to meet with their falsehood and treachery, saith that it could not find credit with the Romans, who being faithful men would not give ear to faithless liars. Neither spoke he this as though the Romans could not in deed be deceived by false reports of wicked imps; (for even there he noteth they might be Mendacia non diu fa●●unt. a while, as he did try both then and Basilides fesellit Stephanum. Cyprian. ●●ist. 68 after:) but to stir them up to beware of heretics, by praising them as wary. Wherefore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot err in faith: as M. Martin threapeth on him. Yet because he might be supposed to have thought it, at least by a consequent; for if they could not err * Wherein all men grant that the Pope may ●rie: even they who stay him most from erring in faith. A●n. Sil●ius Card. in ep. de mo●ibus Ger●. ●urreciemata, Sanders, ●ellarmin, Torrensis, and the whole nation of the jesuits. in that, much less in faith: therefore I, contenting myself with a peremptory exception against it, said, that if he thought it, he must pardon me for not believing him, the word of God gainsaying it. And this doth M. Martin reprove, both for that whereupon I spoke it, and for my kind of speech. That, whereupon I spoke it, is (he saith) that every youth among us, upon confidence of his spirit, will control not only one but all the Father's consenting together, if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth. In which words, by mentioning so all the Father's consenting together, he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him. For I touched the credit of no more of them, than n Io. Picus Mirand. in Apol. Alfonsus' a Castr. adver. haer. l. 1. c. 7. Canus locor. Theolog. l. 7. c. 3. Andrad. deaf ns. ●id. T●●d. l. 2. Sixtus Sen. biblioth. sanct. lib. 5. & 6. & cae●passim. the Papists grant themselves may be touched. Nor controlled I ought upon confidence of my spirit, but of o Rom. 11.22. the spirit of God: because it was against, not that which I imagined, but knew to be the truth. My kind of speech he noteth, for being very fine and figurative, as I thought. As I thought? did M. Martin see my hart? If not: he might have kept that thought within himself. For in truth, (to open it, because he presseth me so far,) I thought in that figure 3 Da veniam Cyprian. [Paerdon me o Cyprian] to imitate a like kind of speech in S. Austin, 4 Da veniam Apostole. Aug. libr. homiliar. quinquagint. homil. 14. [Pardon me o Paul.] What M. Martin thought, when hereupon he matched me with vain & foolish youths: himself hath declared. But it would better have beseemed his age, to have acknowledged rather the truth which I proved, then have reproved my kind of speech. For although I be a vain and foolish youth, who spoke so of Cyprian: yet S. Paul was not a vain and foolish Apostle, whose doctrine I maintained in it. These are (good Christian reader) the faults of my Conclusions: all, that are noted by Stapleton & Martin, as far as I know. If they or any other have touched aught else, which I have not lighted on: I will not be ashamed (upon notice of it) to bring it forth myself, and answer it in judgement. For I have been so careful of true and faithful dealing, as well in the Conclusions, as in the Conference with M. Hart, God is my record: that, job. 31.35. if mine adversaries should write a book against me, I would bear it upon my shoulder, & bind it as a crown unto me. The bolder I am to commend them both to thy upright judgement: beseeching the Father of lights, for his mercy's sake in jesus Christ, to bless thee with the grace of his holy spirit, that thou mayst grow in knowledge, in faith, in hope, in love, and enjoy the blessings prepared for the chosen, who seek and serve him. Psal. 119.18. Open mine eyes, (O Lord,) that I may see wonderful things out of thy law. LONDON▪ Printed by john Wolf, for George Bishop. 1584.