A REMONSTRANCE: OR PLAIN DETECTION OF SOME OF THE FAULTS AND HIDEOUS SORES OF SUCH SILLY SYLLOGISMS AND IMPERTINENT ALLEGATIONS, AS OUT OF sundry factious Pamphlets and Rhapsodies, are cobbled up together in a Book, Entitled, A DEMONSTRATION OF DISCIPLINE: Wherein also, The true state of the Controversy of most of the points in variance, is (by the way) declared.  2. Timoth. 3. ver. 5, 6, & 7. 
They have a show of godliness, but have denied the power thereof: turn away therefore from such, for of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive simple women laden with sins, and led with divers lusts, which are ever learning, and are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.  Augustinus in Psal. 34. 
Quare in Praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini? quare duos populos ex uno vultis facere?  Cyprianus lib. 4. epist. 9 ad Florentium Pupianum. 
Pupianus solus integer, inviolatus, sanctus, pudicus, qui nobis miscere se noluit: in Paradiso & in regno coelorum solus habitabit.  
Imprinted at London by GEORGE BISHOP and RALPH NEWBERIE.  
An. Domini 1590.   

TO THE FACTIOUS AND TURBULENT T. C.W.T. I.P. AND TO THE REST OF THAT anarchical disordered Alphabet, which trouble the quiet and peace of the Church of England.  
MAnifold and foolhardy have your oppositions and practices been against the settlement of that discipline of the Church of England, which beyond all just contradiction, we rightly maintain, as lineally deduced from the Apostles and primitive times downward unto us, and to be reduced from our times upward unto them: As namely by your opposite Admonitions to the Parliament, by Pamphlet-writing of Replies, by Counterpoison, by Abstract, by Dialoguizing, by Martinizing, or printing of infamous libels, by penning, or Penrying of malapert, and treasonable letters, by coursing and discoursing over the holy discipline of the Church: And now at last, by show and demonstration, or by making colourable show and false demonstration to conclude your discipline in Syllogism, That is, to seclude yourselves from all pretence of the thing you would have for ever after before you are awares, and that in Mood and Figure. The subtler sort of Heretics have done no more, than you have done to vex the Church. 
Tertullian. de Prescript. adverse. H●●●.  Apelles the disciple of Martion had certain private, but extraordinary Lectures, or Readins, or prophecies of his own, which they called Phaneroseis, declarations or demonstrations of a certain maid, named Philumena, whom he followed as a Prophetess. Habet praetereà suos libros quos inscripsit Syllogismorum, Besides this, he hath his books, to which he giveth this title of Syllogisms, wherein he undertakes to prove, That whatsoever Moses hath written is not true, but false. Semblably this scholar of T. C. besides all their prophesyings, conferences, private sermoning, parlour exercising, libel, hath brought unto light this book of demonstrative Syllogisms, an incredible and singular good method, and most serviceable to their own times: which method if either your Ecclesiastical discipliners, A. B. C. D. or T.C. or any other of your Alphabet, had heretofore embraced and bound themselves fast unto, we should not have needed to pursue after your extravagant and straggling conceits, lying so scattered in your worthy commentaries, whereby you do nothing else then blur paper, as always saying one & the same thing: nor yourselves should be so far off from joining a right issue to determine & try the cause. For by this demonstrative dealing, all waste words had been pared away as excrementious and superfluous to the body and state of the question, and your undutiful demeanours against the proceed & superiority of Church-governors altogether spared. Which stratagem, as in the sight of God and his Angels detestable and damnable, it hath rather with silence then with censure been answered, and your wits exceedingly misliked therefore: so this sophism or manner of paralogism, if it were somewhat more mannerly, as dealing with material points, and letting alone personal, might deserve less reprehension or mislike, whereunto I have framed this brief answer with Remonstrance, showing the absurdity of your reasons, fallacy of your syllogisms, indemonstrable demonstrations, compiled by other in their books, combined up in this book of yours, worthied by you of this title, to be named a Demonstration, and to be surnamed a Demonstration of the holy discipline of the Church, not the discipline of the holy Church, because the Church is not so holy, but must be hallowed by the discipline. Whiles I am thus conversant in answering, I list not make of ten apparent digression from the propositions which I answer, by instance to the contrary, distinction, or denial, and by returning or retorting all upon yourselves as I might, neither make a roadeover to invade other men's persons with selaunder, as the Demonstrator doth particularly, by producing at his pleasure every one into the Theatre of envious diffamation: but I rather leave a blank or cipher in algorithm, or an Abecedarie name. And do farther pray, that all protestations of your zeal and godliness laid aside, this Academical law of disputing schoolelike, being once enacted by yourselves, may not be repealed: That whether your Demonstrator hath more to say, he may still syllogise, or if he have aught to gainsay, it may please him to distinguish, flatly deny, or give an instance to an affirmative point. But if he have no more to say, wherewith to fortify his part, nor is able in this form to dispose of his sayings; Let the wiser sort of your sectaries suspend their judgement, from either crediting or admiring those pitiful demonstrations. All that I have said, is no more in substance, then that which hath been aforesaid. The solutions of your arguments are included in the answers to the Admonition, in the defence of that answer, in the answer to the Abstract, in the defence of the discipline of the Church of England, and such other learned works, excepting some forced allegations annexed to the Demonstration, and the coined syllogisms. All which, by this method of Remonstrance is reanswered, for it is but one answer. Omne verum, vero consentaneum, Every truth is but agreeable to a truth. Veritas est simplex, mendacium est multiplex, there is but one truth. And although you multiply and urge your falsehood, or divide or subdivide or part into infinite fractions, yet it is but one and the same objection, one Proteus putting on diverse mishapes, the argument sometime clouded under an equinoction, or coloured with ambiguity of terms, or veiled with inconsequencie or disorderly disposition of mood and figure, or transposition of parts of the figure, or borrowing Ignorationem elenchi, Ignorance or uncunning, whether the proposition hold, Ad idem, secundum idem, etc. respectively to this, and not to that, or by begging Petitionem principij, to conclude one and the same by the self same: Or to be beholding to the fallacte à non causa, by arguing from insufficient cause untrue effect, and such other sophistications to plaster up your assertions with untruth: videlicet, as these and such like: As when you argue from your Puritan Idea of government, out of the 14. Rom.  
All lawful things are of faith: all lawful things of faith are warranted by the word, Ergo, all lawful things are warranted by the word, and consequently every lawful action in government of the Church: Where the conclusion is universal in the third figure, and Medius terminus, videlicet, (lawful things) is in the conclusion contrary to all rule of reasoning, and yet the Demonstrator misseth of S. Paul's words which are, Quicquid non ex fide peccatum est. All that is not of faith is sin. Or where as you argue Hypotheticallie out of the 4. Ephes. If all needful gifts be appropriate to other ministries, then is the Archbishop's ministery unlawful, but they are, Ergo, the Archbishop's unlawful.  
And T. C. before you argueth Categorically after this sort:  
Those functions only are sufficient for the Church which have gifts needful: but all those Ephes. 4. and Cor. 1.12. have gifts needful, Ergo, they are only sufficient.  
Which is as good a conclusion as if one of you did argue thus:  
Those things only are sufficient to salvation which are contained in the Scripture.  
But all those things in the ave Marie are contained in the Scriptures, Ergo, those things only in the ave Marie are sufficient to salvation. Or as cunningly after this sort.  
Those only are men which are endued with reason.  
But all the Costermongers in London are endued with reason, Ergo, the Costermongers in London are the only men.  
Or where you go about to prove that none is ordinable to the ministery, unless he have a benefice.  
As was the 12. place for Mathias, so is a certain place for every church officer.  
But Mathias was not ordained till judas had made it void by hanging himself: Ergo, none is to be ordained before the place be void.  
Add unto this, by such manner of Resignation as hanging of himself: Or when another Apostleship falleth void: Or when every 12. place is void: Or when Mathias cometh again to be chosen into judas place.  
The Argument leapeth from one predicament to another, from the predicament Agere to Vbi: They ordained him to an office, Ergo, to a place, and a certain place, as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in all the world.  
Or when you will evince indefatigable residence of the Minister on the place out of the 1. Samuel 9  
Elie the priest sat upon a stool by one of the posts of the Temple, Ergo, a Minister must be resident, and belike must also as he did sit down upon a stool. Or this: A shepherd must feed: a Minister is a shepherd, Ergo, he must corporally and continually reside, without natural or legal dispensation for his absence.  
As if you had said a Minister to be a shepherd, otherwise then metaphorically: for a king also is a shepherd, but in a Metaphor, who may law fully depute others to govern and to feed.  
Or against non Residence out of the 1. Thes. 1.17. v. Satan hindered me: Satan is the cause of non Residence, Ergo, unlawful: where the Demonstrator maketh S. Paul to write good divinity. Satan hindered me, that is, after the Demonstrators skill, Satan caused me to do an ungodly and unlawful thing, whereas S. Paul his meaning is, Satan raised persecution against me.  
Or as fitly and perfectly after this sort for your popular elections and choice of ministers from the 8. Num. 9 v.  
The children of Israel put their hands upon the heads of the Levites.  
The Levites put their hands upon the heads of bullocks: Ergo, the people must lay their hands on the heads of the Ministers.  
Then add unto this: The Ministers must lay their hands on the heads of bullocks. T. C. taught you to reason thus from the ceremony to the Gospel: Et vitulo tu dignus, & hic.  
Or when it pleaseth you to establish the presbytery, you interpret roundly, Dic ecclesiae, tell the Church, that is, the Eldership or Aldermanship of the Church: yea and go farther for the authority of this venerable Eldership, out of the 49. Esay, Kings and Queens shall worship thee with their face towards the earth, and shall lick up the dust of thy feet, etc. Ergo, great homage and honour shall be done to the Eldership.  
Or in that place where you overthrow all standing superiority of Ministers over Ministers, you demonstrate after this fashion.  
A bishop is called Episcopus.  
An ordinary Minister is called Episcopus: Ergo, all one.  
Or a Bishop and an ordinary Minister must have one quality: Ergo, a parish Bishop and a diocoesan Bishop are all one thing. Or, all Bishops are equal in commission of the ministery: Ergo, equal in whatsoever commission of authority. Or, In the beginning for a while a Bishop and a priest or Minister were all one: Ergo, they must continue all one.  
For in the Apostles time was the change, and that same, I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, was the occasion of the change: and finally the decree of all the world (at least as S. Hierome thinketh) was the approbation of the change. This were strange reasoning: In the beginning Kings and priests were all one, ergo, they must continue all one. In the beginning such was the simplicity, etc. Great lords sons, as jacob, etc. kept their father's sheep: ergo, noble men's children mus● keep their father's sheep. In the beginning they baptised in Rivers, ergo, men must carry their children down to be christened in Rivers. Or in another, where you demonstrate against the superiority of Archbishops.  
If the Pope be odious, the Archbishop is odious also, as who would say: If the unmeasurable and illimitable power be unlawful, Ergo, a modest and limited superiority by law is unlawful also. Finiti ad Infinitum nulla est proportio. Or,  
The Archbishop's office and name is unknown to us Puritans, Ergo, unknown and unheard of in the Church.  
You shall well know that both the name and equity of the name and thing is known and allowed of in God's Church. Or, where it pleaseth you to say.  
Caluin saith there were governors of order, not of superiority: Ergo, this is true: as if it were truly said, all government of superiority is government of disorder, and that these were opposite. Or in the demonstration: To prove Doctor and Pastor to be distinguished, you dispute cunningly thus.  
Male and female are distinct in sex or kind, Gal. 3. Ergo Doctor and Pastor must be distinct: why not then in sex or kind? with many other like paralogisms, as in your several Chapters shall be unfolded, the whole Demonstration being nothing else but a bundle of absurdities. Howbeit, the book thereof is a thing so preciously esteemed by the author himself, so magnified by his followers, as worthy to be set upon the highest pinnacle of this Church new reform: for which cause he giveth himself such applause for writing of it, & glorifieth himself as if he were riding upon the Cherubins with Luciferian pride, or as if he were to draw down as the Dragon's tail all the stars in the firmament, consent of scriptures, Councils, Fathers old and new, only to give light to the cause in handling.  
And concerning other men's books that have oppugned the cause, he speaketh scornfully and disdainfully, as of the lord Archbishop and Deane of Sarum their books, whose learned travails, neither T. C. W. T. I. V. nor any ecclesiastical discipliner of them all, are able to confute, unless to rail in all their writings, and snatch at one word in 40. leaves, be to answer a book: whose virtue notwithstanding shall shine, when your cankered malice shall be dead. Touching that most reverend Prelate, you and your complices may in this licentious and outrageous world speak pleasurablie: Never yet good man spoke but honour of him, whom her Majesty hath graciously vouchsafed under her to exercise Christian jurisdiction and authority: whose Primacy is humility, who is for his virtue no less honoured than loved, whose learning angreth you, unto whom if you will make answer, you must study for more learning. I am verily persuaded, that as God in all ages raised excellent men, instruments of his glory to confute and banish out of the Church heresy, as Athanasius against the Arrians, Augustine against the Donatists, Augustine and Hierome against the Pelagians in former times: In our latter times bishop jewel against the false Catholics and Semipelagians: so God hath stirred up this learned man against the false brethren and Aerians of our time, to hammer and beat down the schism and singularity of Puritans. And therefore I do humbly thank God, that it hath pleased his glorious majesty in heaven, and her excellent majesty here on earth, to reserve him to these times. I speak it in the fear of God, had not her majesties principal spirit of wisdom illumined with God's truth, together with the Heroical prudent spirits of certain honourable personages and industrious learned men, affecting a provident care of the posterity of the Church, patronized this Church-discipline, your private spirits of newfangled discipline happily had more prevailed against these godly and religious proceed in the Church, nay, to the utter removing of the Gospel by such confusion and Anarchy. Imagine that the external face of that Church where you might see so many thousand Superintendents, so many Elderships advanced in or above the Church, to make orders and to censure at pleasure, where the people give voices, the Laity lay on hands, the majesty of the Prince excluded from all sway in the presbytery: all antiquity forlorn, all Councils utterly repealed, doctrine divided from exhortation, lay-men Deacons of the Church, parish bishops, parrot preachers, the Universities disgraced of the privilege of granting degrees, Cathedral Churches by greedy wolves spoiled, all courts of justice overthrown or impaired by the consistorial court of Elders, and as it were all the trees of the garden of Eden plucked up, to implant Sambucus the fair goodly Elders or Elder tree. Or else what may be the fantasy or imaginary form of this reformation in matters of Ecclesiastical government? They themselves skill not: or when you have supplanted or overturned, or turned out those Ecclesiastical Senators and governors which we have, whence shall the supply be of able governors? from beyond the seas? that is impossibility. From yourselves? that is matter of difficulty. From us again? that were egregious and ridiculous folly. Might it not far with us as it sometimes did with the Commons of the City of Capua? the Commons bore a deadly hate to the magistrates and governors of the City. Upon a time the council of the City being in consultation of their affairs, one Pacunius (as Livy writeth) Homo usus malis artibus, he was not the best man, maketh an insurrection with the Commons, and suddenly shutteth all the Magistrates into one place, and with sufficient garrison keepeth the place, and held them all as prisoners within, giveth farther this counsel to the Commons to draw them forth one by one, and to put every one to death, and to put others in their places, to create new and better governors of the City. This advise pleased them well. He commandeth in order the first to be drawn forth to execution, as a man worthy of death: every base and tumultuary varlet crieth out, he is worthy of an hundred deaths, let him be shortened by the shoulders. The noble Senator whiles he is to lay down his neck upon the block, Pacwius (as chief speaker) pawseth on the matter: Sirs, before we put this man to death, it were good we did nominate another to occupy his place: this noble City may not stand without a Senate. That counsel also seemeth pleasing unto them, they straight proceed on to the nomination and election of a Senator, One man nameth one, that man nameth another, each man as he best fancieth, maketh a several nomination: no sooner any man is named, but a 1000 exceptions are taken to the party, the person named is thought unworthy either for baseness of his parentage, or vileness of his trade, or meanness of his fortunes, or lack of this, or lack of that: the sedition thereupon is dissolved of itself, the election of a new set of officers is interrupted, every one plainly seethe his own folly and temerity. semblably if like power were given, as in the Preface of your Demonstration you pray for, (which God forbidden) to shut up into a corner our Reverend Fathers and Ecclesiastical magistracy, and you ready upon the change to transform our Bishops into your Surueillants, or overwatchers, our Convocations and Chapters, into your marvelous Classical conferences and Synods, all the whole Hierarchy of the Church into your tetrarchy of Doctor, Pastor, Elder and Deacon (for if you did affect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to have no superiority, than were you far worse than the Capuans) If I say your mortal or immortal hatred against the state ecclesiastical carried you to extinguish this order established in the Church already: blessed God, how would you proceed to the choice of a new Senate Ecclesiastical and their investiture? whiles a man might hear you say of the new Doctor or Pastor, Elder or Deacon, This man hath zeal but no learning, that man learning but no zeal, the other neither zeal nor learning, such a man is factious and full of deadly poison, he a base craftsman or artisan, another is avaricious, and would carry away our bag, T. C. will overtoppe all, or loveth the pre-eminences as Diotrephes, each man taking exception unto other. Do ye not foresee, or rather do you not see as in a glass, the image or bodily shape of the imagined state which you so impetuouslie strive for, and we strive against, and strive will in a good cause unto the death? Or what need we strive? the strife will be with and within yourselves, when you shall see the monstrousness of your misbegotten, conceived foul Embryon, deformed and misshaped birth, borne into the world of Christianity, which you are so enamoured upon, and so fond over, that every one must kiss & embrace it in his arms, & blush not to make show & demonstration of triumph of the birth & nativity of the same. How soever your fancy deludeth you with joy, this monster may not be suffered to live upon the face of the earth. 
1. Cor. 15.35.  S. Paul sometime said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: I have fought with beasts under the shape of men at Ephesus, that is, with beastly and monstrous men and their opinions. So I now say or will assay to encounter the Demonstrator and his demonstrations, to quell this monster amongst men. Of the same mind are many more of our excellent & learned men. Men are now awakened and will no longer endure these insignious abuses offered to the Church, to the Universities, to the Colleges of learned men. No, no T.C. & you the whole busy sect of Puritans, do not think any longer to pester the Church of England. You lack the most of you (for any thing I see) sound Logic, and other learning's divine and human. Perchance you, or some of the most ignominious amongst you, may devise an infamous Libel or letter against D. Bridges, or D. Bancroft for his Sermon preached at Paul's cross (a Sermon worthy to be read and printed in the heart of the hearer in deed) or against the writer of this Remonstrance to solace yourselves withal for the mean time, as all heretics and schismatics are wont to countenance their cause. I do assure myself that none of you dare to undertake a public disputation in the schools (if those in authority shall think it fit) or to go forward with this scholastical exercise of Syllogising. To second your irrefragable, undoubted, and thrice learned demonstrations, the next news I look to hear from you, will be no refutation of this my book, but a little book or Libel full fraught with calumnious slander: nevertheless, per bonam famam & per infamiam, by good report and bad report we must proceed on to the justification of a good cause. And if like dastards and recreants you will not deal with handie-strokes of Syllogism: let it be an evident sign that you are ready to run away, and for ever after relinquish your so disputable and demonstrable a cause. * ⁎ *   


Chap. I. A REMONSTRANCE TO THE SUPPOSED DEMONSTRATION OF PRETENDED DISCIPLINE.  
The main Conclusion or Assertion of the first Chapter.  
THE word of God describeth perfectly unto us that form of governing the Church which is lawful, 
Demonstration.  and the officers which are to execute the same, from the which no Christian Church ought to serve.  
This is the main conclusion of these monstrous Demonstrations, 
Remonstrance.  not to be worthied the name of Demonstrations, forasmuch as I have learned, Medium est causa maioris extremi in omni demonstratione, 
Arist. poster. li. 1.  which never falleth out in any of these Demonstrations: neither are the parts or propositions correspondent to a Demonstration, whereof none can be admitted but such which are Termini pares & reciprocabiles. Nor so much as principles or grounds immediate of themselves needing proof of no other infallibly true, or first true before all other, or forth with known, and to be acknowledged true: or finally, Causae conclusionis: But which rather, be probable Syllogisms, and those but very few, or indeed paralogisms, mere Sophisms to make a brawl against received truth.  
In this conclusion, if by governing, were understood the direction in faith and manners of every true member of the Church, it were simply to be granted. But these men (as by their whole discourses appeareth) understand thereby the government for the external policy and orders of the whole Church in general, also of every greater part thereof (as the Church of an whole nation or province) and of every several congregation.  
If therefore by these words (describeth perfectly) he and they mean that all the whole frame and form of this government, and the officers to execute the same, with their names, adjuncts, offices, and several authorities particularly and specifically are either expressed, or by the word of God immediately and necessarily may be concluded: both we deny it, and themselves now at length (though with much a do) confess it not to be true.  
Yet T. C. the Bell-wether of this band (out of whose forge the Demonstrationer hath taken up almost all his stuff on trust) in his books did at first so understand it. For because Christ his faithfulness in God's house is likened to that of Moses, who described every pin almost of the Tabernacle, therefore he concludeth, that not the least particular point tending to external Church government, is omitted undescribed in God's word: As if either he had some Scripture that others have not seen, or he only were clear sighted. And to this very purpose serve all the arguments of this first Chapter: Insomuch as barrow (who professeth that he holdeth nothing, which he hath not gathered out of those, and like men's books) still thinketh, that none external orders or laws at all are lawful now to be set down for the Church, because Christ hath set down sufficient in particular.  
But the other sort somewhat wiser, being taught by their schoolmistress experience, that upon trial made every expedient particular in external government could not be so proved, have by their Champion Martin the Malapert, 
In his second book.  restrained this whole controversy to a narrower issue, saying, that the Officers and their offices are so described, and both these forsooth at least, are essential.  
And the whole fraternity (as I hear) either in person, or representatively, being out of all coasts of this land synodically assembled, have now impounded The holy discipline (which they hold to be described in the word, to be essential, eternal, and immutable) unto the fourth part of one sheet of paper: but their Synodical discipline (which already upon the first licking is seven times as great as the other,) they think in some respects to be necessary and eternal, in other respects to be mutable: but how much of it looks the one way, and how much the other way, they have not yet revealed. Therefore thus I reason by retortion upon their own positions.  
Basilius- All form of governing the church, which is lawful, with the officers to execute it, is perfectly described in the word of God.  
ro- Your Synodical form of governing, and the officers to execute it (by your own position) is not perfectly described in the word of God, ergo,  
co. It is not a lawful form of governing the Church, etc.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
These things I writ unto thee, etc. 1. Timot. 3.14.15. v. 
Demonstration.  Out of this place I reason thus:  
That end which S. Paul respected in writing unto Timothy, the holy Ghost directeth all Ministers unto for ever, for it must be kept. 1. Timoth. 6. cap. 14.  
But he wrote to direct him in the establishing and building of the Church: ergo, all Ministers are directed by the word for ever: and consequently neither to add, nor take from.  
Because the Demonstrator will be at an end before he beginneth, 
Remonstrance.  he frameth his argument a fine, or, à destinatis, from the end.  
To the Mayor.  
Out of this place you can not argue thus: That which S. Paul respecteth, the holy Ghost directeth, etc. Nay the contrary is more reasonable: That which the holy Ghost respecteth, S. Paul doth point unto, and appoint all Ministers to be respective thereunto: S. Paul's intendment runneth not before the holy Ghost, S. Paul thinketh he hath the holy Ghost.  
To the Minor.  
But Saint Paul wrote for the establishing and building of the Church: This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the Cart before the horse. It is preposterous to establish a Church first, and to build a Church after: The meaning of the place is, how he should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. converse in the house of God, which is the Church, 4. cap. 12. v. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, be a pattern to the faithful, in speech, in conversation, in love, and therefore biddeth him keep 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the undefiled commandment, or the general commandment, one commandment for all: ergo, S. Paul there directeth all Ministers how they should publicly and privately converse.  
This your collection is unnatural to the text. As for the whole syllogism, & prosyllogisme, if it were a perfect reason, it maketh nothing against us: or it is Demonstratio in circulo, a circular demonstration: All Ministers must be directed in particular, because Timothy a particular Minister was directed in a generality: vel è contrà: 
Topic. 4.  The fallation is apparent: qui dicit genus non dicit speciem, nec qui dicit speciem, dicit individuum: Paul gave there general direction, ergo all particular direction whatsoever.  
The conclusion followeth not of those premises, because it is defective in minori extremo, for it ought thus to be concluded.  
Da- What end Paul respected, etc. to that the holy Ghost directeth all Ministers for ever:  
ti- The end that Paul respected, was to direct Timothy to build and establish the Church, ergo  
si. The holy Ghost directeth all Ministers for ever to build and establish the Church. But this conclusion is false (because all are not to plant Churches, for some build on others foundation) and not the minor, in that Paul taught Timothy at least, to establish the Church, therefore the mayor must be untrue. It had been more probable if it had been thus said, Directeth all such ministers as Timothy was, who indeed was B. of Ephesus, as all old writers, beside the subscription of the epistle do testify. Therefore thus I retort with the like argument.  
Da- What end Paul writing to Timothy respected, 
Retortion.  to that the holy Ghost directeth all such Ministers as he was for ever:  
ri- Paul writing to him a Bishop, respected as an end the teaching of his duty in ordinations of Ministers, and in his jurisdiction over others (as may appear by the precepts of laying on of hands, of examination, approbation, rejection, censures, receiving accusations, and for avoiding of partiality and prejudice) these two, (with the censures annexed) being the pre-eminences that BB. claim in their several charges, ergo,  
j The holy Ghost directeth all such Ministers for ever as he was (viz. BB.) unto ordinations of Ministers and jurisdiction.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
Every house must be governed by the orders of the wise governor only: But the Church is an house, 
Demonstration.  and God an householder, ergo.  
This is no demonstration, 
Remonstrance.  dare I or you say, but a syllogism in Darij, and the conclusion to be granted for all orders which God hath indeed set down.  
To the Mayor.  
Every house must so be governed, etc. id est, for matters of importance, and to do nothing contrary to his orders: for in that government of an householder, some matters of less weight are left to the good discretion of those of the family, neither is it otherwise possible to be. It sufficeth if every house be ordered by the principal orders of the lord, or father of the family, or by the steward, who is lex loquens. joseph was a wise steward over all Pharaoh his house, and so are we stewards. Ephes. 4. and yet a very wise and learned Minister, may miss in direction of some particular matter that may come in experience in the Church.  
To the Minor.  
The Church is an house, and God an householder, that is, the Church like an house, God likened to an householder: ergo. In this connexion of the Mayor to the Minor, are four termini: the conclusion is nought, and the argument followeth not of inevitable necessity, from oeconomiques unto politics, or least of all from politics to the Hierarchy of the Church. 
Retortion.  Rather è contrà. God's house must be governed by the orders of himself, & by the faithful servants and stewards of his mysteries, who have interpretation of the Lord his word & will: ergo, every man's house may be ordered by the Master of the household, or steward in his place, who hath skill of the L. his pleasure, and his Masters will.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which teacheth every good way, 
Demonstration.  teacheth also how the Church must be governed: but the word of God teacheth every good way: ergo, it teacheth how the Church must be governed.  
To the Mayor.  
This argument is drawn à Transcendente: Good is Transcendent, 
Remonstrance.  which is the Mayor. It derogateth nothing from the Majesty and sufficiency of the word to teach in a generality and infallible certainty of the substance, although not in every individual circumstance: no art, no science, no faculty, consisteth of singulars, or provideth for every casualty, much less for every ceremonial ordinance. Sufficeth unto us that the Scripture is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, inspired from God, & is profitable to doctrine, etc. That the man of God may be made perfect, and every Christian man may be lead into the right way of salvation, without wandering ignorance, or wanton curiosity.  
To the Minor.  
The Minor maketh for this exposition. 2. Pro. 9 Tunc intelliges justitiam, & ius, & quicquid rectumest, & omnem orbitam bonam: thou shalt then understand equity and righteousness, and all right, and every good way, which is requisite to the spiritual worship of God: for else should all good sciences and arts, and all good medicines which God hath created, be also learned out of the scriptures. Therefore this arrow shot out of their own bow into the air upright, as a child's arrow falleth into their own eyes.  
Basilius- The word of God teacheth every good way:  
ro- But it teacheth not the Synodical discipline, 
Retortion.  and the mutability thereof, according to the variety of several circumstances, for so themselves in their new plaited discipline, are forced to distinguish and confess. ergo,  
co. Their Synodical discipline, etc. is no good way.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
The Demonstrator saith: 
Demonstration.  we cannot glorify God but by obedience to his word: But in all we do we must glorify God. ergo, In all that we do, we must be obedient to his word, and consequently in governing of his Church.  
The Syllogism and prosyllogisme prove nothing to the purpose, 
Remonstrance.  and reprove not any thing of ours.  
It is an obedience to the word such government as ours, whether ordained by it, or subordinate unto it, always to be conformable to the government of his word: of this sort is every title and jot of our Liturgy and Communion book, our ceremonies, our provincial constitutions, or any law in force, which bindeth us to the subscription or observation of the book. Have home again this slender Syllogism to yourself.  
You cannot disglorifie God, 
Retortion.  but by disobedience to his word: but your recusance of her majesties lawful proceed under God, is as the sin of witchcraft, & is disglorifying of God: ergo, in not doing or undoing her majesties proceeding, is disobedience to the word.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
If meat and drink cannot be sanctified but by the word & prayer, 
Demonstration.  much less any thing is holy in action of governing the Church, that is beside the word: but the first is true, ergo, the second.  
This Syllogism is connexive, 
Remonstrance.  ill favouredly knit together: the sequel of the Antecedent must be distinguished. If you mean beside the word, contrary or repugnant to the word: no man will deny the consequence of the first: and then all this thread is evil spun, it maketh nothing to the purpose: But if by Besides the word, you understand all comprehended under the general precepts thereof, you must begin to knit a new demonstration: else your whole discipline frame falls on your head. I therefore retort your argument thus:  
If every creature under heaven 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Retortion.  be good, and not to be rejected, because it is sanctified by prayer, and the word, then much more 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, every humane creature or ordinance which cometh down from heaven, which is often sanctified by prayer and the word: but the former is true, ergo the later. And by consequence, every deal of our Church discipline & policy is of God, unto which you must submit, or else be rebels against God: for you cannot prove it repugnant to God's word.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
All lawful things are of faith. Rom. 14.23. v. 
Demonstration.   
All lawful things of faith are warranted by the word, ergo,  
All lawful things are warranted by the word: and consequently, every lawful action in the government of the Church.  
The state of the question that you make, is: 
Remonstrance.  Whether every lawful action be warranted by the word: the right state of the question is, whether every sere and singular action for Church external policy, must be in so many letters expressed, or immediately to be gathered of the word. You may not pass away thus in clouds of generality.  
To the Mayor.  
viz. All lawful things are of faith. 
Falsification of the text by the Demonstrator.  Maledicta glossa quae corrumpit textum. You corrupt the text: the text is: All that is not of faith is sin, not all lawful things are of faith, for all good arts and sciences be lawful, but not of faith: for Heathens invented and practised most of them. The Mayor neither is true in the allegation, nor in the conversion of the terms true, which in a demonstration is requisite: for all faithful things are lawful, not all lawful things are faithful. This poison is not worth a counter, you must run a begging for a better Demonstration to the Counterpoysoner, whence this was borrowed.  
To the Mayor, Minor, and Conclusion.  
The whole Syllogism is faulty.  
All lawful things are of faith.  
All lawful things of faith are warranted in the word, ergo  
All lawful things are warranted in the word.  
Transposition of terms makes no Syllogism in direct concluding moods.  
Now for the consequency.  
It is ab angulo ad baculum, from the corner to the staff.  
All lawful things of faith are warrantable by the word, ergo  
All lawful things are warrantable by the word.  
The Demonstrator never learned this Logic.  
Ab oratione secundùm quid sumpta cum determinatione ad orationem sumptam simpliciter sine determinatione non valet argumentum.  
The reason is all alike.  
All fasts or days of abstinence commanded by the Church, are good: ergo all fasts (yea upon the lords day) are also good, whether commanded or not commanded.  
The 7. Demonstration.  
Either God hath left a prescript form of government now, or else he is less careful under the New Testament then under the Old: 
Demonstration.  But he is as careful now, ergo.  
This disjunctive desperately setteth all out of tune. 
Remonstrance.   
Either God hath made a prescript form of government, or he is a careless God: These men care not what they say: it maketh against themselves, whatsoever they say.  
The assumption is presumption, by a trick of Logic, to accuse God of carelessness.  
To the Antecedent.  
The Antecedent is most false, when both parts are false.  
Either he hath prescribed (as they would have described) or the divine Majesty is a careless God. O careless divinity.  
When both parts of a Dilemma or disjunctive are false, a bare negative might serve: but neither hath God given a prescript form of accidental or external government (as themselves with shame enough at last confess) neither is he at any time a careless God.  
Every point of discipline is not disclosed in the law: every particular case incident is not reckoned there: the lips of the Priest must preserve knowledge, the breast of the High Priest keep urim and Thumim, light and perfection of holiness and knowledge. When a hard case riseth, resort must be to the high priest or judge in the land. 
Rom. 8.  As for so much as is prescribed in the new law, or law of spirit of life, no prescription ought to be made against it: where the word leaveth of for diversity of government, it leaveth all the rest to a Christian liberty, to the Christian magistracy, to the holy ministery to keep us within awe.  
But see now this argument reboundeth from the wall of your discipline upon your faces. 
Retortion of the argument   
Either God hath given a Christian liberty, and for the right use there of the gifts of government 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 1. Cor. 12. by the perpetual pledge and operation of his spirit, or else he toeth us to the ceremonial observances and policy of the law to be schooled under them. God is not tied unto us.  
But God hath not by any prescript form tied us to that part of the law, neither doth he suffer us to be lawless. Ergo, he hath given us the use of Christian liberty, and the gifts of his spirit to his Church to be disciplined thereby in matters not contained in Scripture, else it were no gift to govern, if all were specificallie set down.  
Diversities of graces, one spirit, diversities of ministrations, one lord, diversity of operations, one God.  
The difference is in the manner of dispensation, not in the things dispensed, and yet one and the same Christ, in no manner of prescript governance to be accused of caring more, or of caring less for the government of his Church under the Gospel, or under the law.  
The 8. Demonstration. 
Demonstration.   
He that was as faithful as Moses, left as clear instruction for the government of the Church: but Christ was as faithful, ergo. 
Heb. 3.2.   
To the Mayor.  
He that was as faithful as Moses, 
Remonstrance.  left as clear instruction for doctrine of faith and manners: nay he left clearer.  
To the Prosyllogisme,  
But Moses gave direction for every particular: ergo, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  according to this your sense add unto this: but Moses from the Cherubin to the lowest pin in the tabernacle: ergo, Christ from the Communion table to the sweeping of the Church: Moses left an heap of ceremonies, Ergo, Christ must bring in another heap of ceremonies: Moses made judicials, Ergo, Christ new judicials: Moses ten commandments of old: Ergo, Christ ten commandments of new. Aaron had an Ephod, or superhumerall, and girdle: ergo, every thing must be proportioned in Christ, of whom Moses was a figure, or in Christians & their government, of whom Moses was neither type nor figure: The better is not the shadow of the worse, but the worse of the better.  
The 9 Demonstration.  
If the word of God hath described sufficient ministries and ministers for the building & ordering of the Church, 
Demonstra. Rom. 12.5, 6, 7. 1. Cor. 12.28. Eph 4.11.  then is our assertion true: But it hath set down sufficient for doctrine, exhortation, overseeing, distribution, etc. ergo,  
This reasoning inferreth Fallaciam consequentis, 
Remonstrance.  fallacy of the consequent, viz. à non distributis ad distributa.  
To the Antecedent.  
Albeit the word hath set down sufficient ministers and ministration, yet is your assertion short of the truth.  
The Assumption bewrayeth your false dealing in the Antecedent. Although the word setteth down different sorts and diversities of functions and duties, yet our Axiom and rule is,  
Every particular gift and quality maketh not a new settled office in the Church of God. Except you will have a several officer also to show mercic, Rom. 12. that so yourselves need to show none till you have that office.  
E diversitate accidentium non sequitur diversitas subiectorum, but è contrar. subiectum est principium emanationis accidentium.  
If the word etc. then is your assertion true (say you) Omne verum vero consentaneum, every truth is agrecable to a truth: but this is manifestly false, and utterly untrue that the word hath set down the liuclie image or imaginary face of your Church-discipline, the counterfeit whereof you have, or pretend to have. This together with the former, is untruth, disagreeing in itself, and jarring with the truth. Let your own reason march upon you thus:  
Either in those places you have found, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  or in no place else can be found the four states of Doctors and pastors, governors, and Deacons in use perpetual: but not in those places, which is the issue that we join: and therefore to seek in so many books that which you deem to be already found, is a fond matter, and already frustrate: or to seek that never can be found, is an infinite matter, and better unsought then found. Quicquid sine fine fit, aut infinitum est, aut frustra fit: unless you do as Inachus the good man that sought his daughter transformed into a Cow.  
sed quam non invenit usquam  
Esse putat nusquam, atque animo peiora veretur.  
The 10. Demonstration.  
That government which the Apostles taught and planted, 
Demonstration.  is expressed in the word: But the Apostles taught and planted pastors and teachers for instruction, Elders for overseeing, Deacons for distributing: Ergo, a certain form is expressed in the word.  
To the Mayor.  
Indefinita locutio restringenda est. 
Remonstrance.  First, the Mayor is ambiguous: that which the Apostles, etc. It is not expressed so precisely what all the Apostles taught and planted in the Church, but the sum & substance of it. Secondarily, the Mayor is not conversive or reciprocal in every part, and therefore no demonstrative proposition: viz. to say that which the Apostles taught, is expressed in the word, & that which is expressed in the word, the Apostles taught.  
To the Minor.  
Answer is: neither by writing nor by practice did they ever establish an uniformity of external Church discipline, & that perpetually to hold. An instance is of your Lay and unpreaching elderships, being temporary and living not of the Church, having imposition of hands, and interest of ordination and censures, contrary to all Scripture and practice of antiquity: Or Deaconship of women, never to be continued for Apostolical constitution, as yourselves for the most part confess.  
Note, the appearance of this manner of reasoning, 
Retortion.  retireth upon yourselves. That which the Apostles taught and planted, all, or that our Saviour taught himself, is impossible to be expressed in the word: for the whole world cannot contain the books: but the Apostles & our Saviour converted many millions, taught many doctrines in particularity of conference: the Apostles planted many churches in the dispersion: ergo, it is a matter of impossibility to express it so largely in the word. Or, that which is necessary to salvation is expressed in the word, That which is unnecessary, is silenced in the word. Puritans Idea or fantasy, is not necessary to salvation, for many millions of souls of Martyrs & others, have been saved without it. Ergo, it is not specifically expressed in the word.  
The 11. Demonstration.  
All lawful action and office in the building of the Church, 
Demonstration.  is from heaven: but every thing (in the ordinary building of the Church) from heaven, is revealed in the word. Ergo, every lawful office & action is revealed in the word.  
An eleven men must lift a straw in this 11. Demonstration: 
Remonstrance.  needs you must confess a flat Paralogism in this. This is faulty both in form and matter, or profess yourself absurd.  
The medius terminus is disposed secundum habitudinem nullius figurae, in no order either of mood or figure. By transposition of the parts which may never be allowed in a Demonstration: or this fair Demonstrator meaneth to conclude by an affirmative in the second figure.  
To the Minor.  
Whereas the Minor saith, every thing from heaven with a decent Parenthesis, to salve an inconvenience (in the ordinary building) is revealed (as you understand revealed) in the word, It is utterly untrue, whether you understand matter of external orders and circumstance, or for the proportionating of external decency of every part and parcel: it is a matter of infinity to find all determined particularly by the word. But to beat their own weapon about their own pate, I make this Dilemma.  
Every office and action in our Church government, 
Retortion.  is either from heaven or from earth: if from earth, than all of that mind were earthly minded men from the primitive Church downward unto us, and from us upward unto them, whereby fall into your condemnation all they whom you deem to have abused the same, or not used the same, sith it is clear by Ecclesiastical history, they for the most part used the same Church discipline which we do. If from heaven, how dare you withstand the same? It is hard to kick against the prick: your contradiction cannot long stand against it, lest you perish in the same.  
The 12. Demonstration.  
If God continued in regard of the substance, 
Demonstration.  the Church administration as well as the things to be administered, then is the form of discipline described in the word: but the former is true: for priests, Pastors: for teaching Levites or Doctors of the law, Teachers: for rulers of the Synagogue, Elders: for Levitical lookers to the treasury, Deacons: for Sanedrim, the Eldership. Ergo,  
This Demonstration is Demonstratio à causa remota: 
Remonstrance.  a demonstrate seldom used: the resolution or Analysis is this:  
If God from all succeeding ages continued as well the form as the matter, in respect of the substance, then etc.  
To the Antecedent.  
This phrase of speech (in respect of the substance) emplyeth a contradiction to the sequel of the Antecedent: for it cometh to this sum. If God hath continued the whole discipline in respect of the essential parts of discipline, then is the frame of accidental points of discipline and external policy of the Church continued therewith: which Antecedent with the consequence is stark nought. As if a man did reason thus, he might reason also as well: 
Absurdity.  If God hath continued (in regard of the substance) the propagation of Adam's posterity by enduing man with an humane body, and infusing into man a reasonable soul, then hath he endued all men alike with semblable endowment of body and soul: As if God did garnish every man alike with reason and religion in the intellectual soul, or complexionate alike the natural body which is united to the soul. Nothing so like as man unto God: for he made man to the likeness of himself: nothing so dislike as man unto man: man in honour understood not, but became like to the brute beast, 
Psal. 49.  and yet in regard of the substance, God continueth the unchangeable tenor of the race of man.  
To the Assumption.  
The assumption beggarly beggeth that which is in question, drawing a proportion of that which is not.  
Non entis nullae qualitates.  
Where can you ever prove the correspondence, or one word of Scripture for the maintenance of this, videlicet, That Pastor answereth unto priest, sith with you pastoral charge is exhortation? Or Doctor of the law, or teaching Levite for one of your Doctors, which is a bare teacher using explication, and refusing application, or a simple catechist, whereas Saint Paul doctor gentium was a full minister? Or for Levitical lookers to the treasury, Deacons, because they look to finger treasure? you will make it a corporal office, but we withal, some ministery about the word, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as amongst the Apostles after the expiration of that service at jerusalem, the primitive Deacons did? Or for jewish 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rulers of the Synagogue, Elders to come in place, sith that was a canker of corruption that crept in amongst them?  
Or for Sanedrim, Eldership, sith no man can exactly number the time when it first came in? Sith it was a depravation of a better thing, but dealing with all civil causes: sith that was no holy nor sacred pres byterie, which we do hold all our Synods and solemn Convocations to be.  
The Idea of this discipline is a hot Meteor invisible, not hanging in any region of the air: The difference of this Sanedrim from the old is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: the imagination upon this, is: Diametri ad latus, incommensurable proportion: the Identity is a contrariety in sight: the use of this discipline is a nullity in deed.  
But thus we retort the argument upon them.  
If God continued in regard of the substance, 
Retortion.  the church administration under the Gospel, which was under the law, then are there degrees of superiority and authority in persons ecclesiastical one over another: for the priests were above the Levites, and the high priests above all the priests of that nation, in so much as he that wilfully disobeyed his judgement, was to die the death.  
But our Demonstrationer and his customer of whom he borrows it, say (upon their credits) the former is true: ergo,  
Superiority in the state ecclesiastical, is continued by God under the Gospel, and therefore not to be discontinued as Antichristian.  
The 13. Demonstration.  
Every wise king that is careful for his subjects, 
Demonstration.  setteth down laws: but Christ is a wise king: ergo, a certain form of government.  
The second demonstration was of an householder, 
Remonstrance.  this is the 13. of a king: this is to parabolize, not to demonstrate.  
You cannot hence draw a consequence, but inconsequentlie conclude, because Christ is a king, Ergo, he is bound to set down express laws for every individual point of government that may happen: for no wise king doth so, especially where the whole policy which is by him continued, is set down afore, as you bear us in hand in your 12. Demonstration, that the whole substance of the policy under the law, is continued under the Gospel. True it is for the inward and spiritual worship, all is described in the word, and prescribed unto us. As for every external matter of dependence, it ought rightly to be deduced from the word, and reduced to the touchstone of the word again, regard being had to the several circumstances of time, persons, etc. Me thinks if you would have framed an argument, the consequence should be thus. Every wise king is careful, etc. Ergo, he barreth all wranglers to make false constructions and collections of his laws: But Christ is an everlasting king, and hath an everlasting truth concluded in the tables of his laws: Ergo, none of his subjects may call that law which is not law, nor of the volume and body of his law: or call that sole and an eternal truth, which is a sole and eternal lie, as your formal government, particoloured coat of Laity and Clergy, linsey wolsey discipline, or uncertain form of government.  
The 14. Demonstration.  
That which the Ministers must teach the people to observe, 
Demonstration.  is set down in the word.  
But they are to teach obedience to the particular form of government: 
Math. 28.20.  Ergo, the particular form is set down.  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is undemonstrable, not reciprocal, most false. 
Remonstrance.  The Ministers need not teach all that is set down:  
Which is the conversive of the Mayor. An instance is, Instantia soluit argumentum.  
Many things in Moses law, as to abstain from blood, are not of necessity to be taught to be observed, which nevertheless are distinctly set down.  
The error hereof resteth in the ambiguity of this word, set down, whether particularly or generally set down be understood.  
Ministers are to teach obedience to the particular form of government, and laws civil of any lawful common wealth: Ergo, all civil laws are particularly set down in the Scripture.  
To the Minor.  
The Minor proceedeth of Supposal.  
Ex suppositione sequitur quidlibet.  
Supposing that government of necessity to bind us, they must necessarily teach it us:  
Supposing that our Saviour jesus when he said 28. Math. 20. ver. 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  Go 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Teach and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them to observe all, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that I have commanded you, etc. did command their discipline: It will easily follow, as if he did preposterously command a faithful conversation before conversion to the faith: or as if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alludeth only unto discipline, & not respectively looketh to the whole sum of Christianity which the Apostles were to teach: so they may dally for their discipline with any place. You know the old proverb, Abegger is never out of his way. Eckius to prove transubstantiation, allegeth: Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hody: These men to turn doctrine into discipline, all into government, every way is an high way: every conjecture is an invincible demonstration to show and present us with the face or mask of disguised discipline.  
The 15. Demonstration.  
Every government consisteth in the matter and manner. 
Demonstration.   
But in the word is described the particularity of both, as in the 9 Demonstration. Ergo, the word hath prescribed a prescript government.  
Here is a conclusion in 2. figura affirmatiuè, 
Remonstrance.  and by a leap from described to prescribed, quatuor termini.  
To the Mayor.  
Things coincident are considerable together.  
All government consisteth not in the matter and manner only, but in the efficient and final causes also, As God the author and beginning in Christ, and the glory of God, which is the scope or latter end.  
To the Minor.  
The Minor is very false: but to retort it.  
If both matter and manner be described, then what need your variable Synodical discipline, or any more orders at all, as the Barrowists contend, and you would seem to oppugn?  
The 16. Demonstration.  
Cyprian saith, 
Demonstration.  Sermone de baptismo Christi. From Scripture, rules of all doctrine have sprung, and hither doth return whatsoever the Ecclesiastical discipline doth contain.  
The words of Cyprian are. 
Remonstrance. De bapt. Christi, & manifest. Trinit.  Legat hoc verbum, & in hoc mandato meditetur Christiana religio, & inveniet omnium doctrinarum regulas ex hac Scriptura emanasse, & hinc nasci, & huc reverti quicquid Ecclesiastica continet disciplina, & in omnibus irritum esse & frivolum, quicquid dilectio non confirmat.  
Cyprian speaketh of love and charity, he treateth not there of an Ecclesiastical policy, but thereby meaneth only the doctrine of the Church, which is recapitulated in love: which chapter being very brief of one word, I would our Discipliners had once read over.  
Cyprian right well did skill of Christian discipline, viz. a rule of doctrine, which is another manner thing then this fancied discipline of Church-frame, which you pretend to have: being a salt discipline, not the salt of discipline, which Cyprian would have.  
Te docente ad siccandas corruptionum mearum putredines prodesse cauterium, 
Sermone de bapt. Christi.  & mundare cicatrices veteres salem disciplinae tuae evangelio tuo medente infusum.  
God being the Doctor or heavenly doctrine, is of as great avail, as a burning iron to sear up the rottenness of putrefied flesh: the salt of discipline sprinkled upon us out of the divine Gospel, doth mundify old sores, and purge and heal them clean. In both which places you see, that which he first called doctrine, he after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 calleth discipline.  
Therefore this salt of discipline, might very well serve to mundify and heal the wound of charity, which you have made: Luculentam plagam declarat cicatrix: 
2. Philip.  the scar whereof in the forehead of our Church doth manifestly appear.  
But I perceive the Demonstrator for all his brag, is but a sorry reader of Cyprian, or had his allegation gathered to his hand, and never had the leisure to read over Cyprian.  
The 17. Demonstration.  
We may not give ourselves the liberty to bring in any thing that other men bring of their will: 
Demonstration.  we have the Apostles for authors, who themselves brought nothing of their own will: But the discipline which they received of Christ, 
Tertul. de prescript. adu. hear.  they delivered faithfully to the people.  
I take your meaning, 
Remonstrance.  and not your words.  
Your quotation is of Cyprian, but your meaning of Tertullian, who hath such like words: Nobis ex arbitrio nostro indulgere nihil licet, speaking against the doctrine of men and devils: ut aeones & formas nescio quas, & trinitatem hominis apud Valentinum: as the Commentator upon Tertullian, doth observe.  
Tertullian directeth those words against Martion, and Apelles, and others.  
Tertullian saith, we may not give ourselves liberty, neither abridge others of their Christian liberty. Tertullian is not contrary to Tertullian: else where he requireth consanguinitatem doctrinae, consanguinity of doctrine, from Christ and his Apostles downward: so that it is plain to him that weieth the place, he meant of doctrine. If he had meant it of the policy and outward government of the Church, it maketh not against ours, which for the substance of it we are ready to aver to be grounded of the word, and taught by the Apostles, and retained ever since in the Church, theirs being never heard of, till about 50. years ago it was set up in one town, being a popular state.  
The 18. Demonstration.  
It is adulterous, 
Demonstration.  it is sacrilegious, whatsoever is ordained by human fury, that the divine disposition should be violated.  
Cyprian speaketh of Heretics, 
Remonstrance.  and of Schismatics, who departed from the Church, as our Puritans do from the unity of the godly proceed, established in the Church: against Foelicianus, and the five Priests. Nunc apparet Foeliciani factio unde est, quibus viribus, quibus radicibus staret: hij fomenta quibusdam confessoribus & hortamenta tribuebant, ne concordarent cum Episcopo suo, nec Ecclesiasticam disciplinam cum fide & quiet juxta praecepta Domini continerent, ut relictis Domini sacerdotibus contra Euangelicam disciplinam, nova traditio sacrilegae institutionis exurgat.  
Note whether these words of Cyprian concern not our times.  
Now it is clear whence T. C. his faction ariseth, how it took rooting, how it is hardened. He and his crew have withdrawn certain, who of good zeal profess the name of Christ, from the love and obedience of their Superior or Pastor, or Bishop, and have dangerously drawn them into contempt of Ecclesiastical discipline to break from the faith and allegiance of the lords precepts, that by forsaking of the Lord his Priests, contrary to the evangelical discipline, they might begin a new platform of sacrilegious institution of their own discipline. Observe last of all that Ecclesiastical discipline, evangelical discipline, which S. Cyprian soundeth far otherwise then the new tetrarchy of Doctors, Pastors, Elders, and Deacons discipline: for it is taken for the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles.  
Yet here of by the way we gather, that such as break forth from the Bishop's government and censures (as our schismatics do with greatest contempt that may be) do offend against the commandments and the doctrine or discipline of the Gospel: and therefore a superiority of Bishops is a divine institution, by Cyprians judgement, who lived not very long after the Apostles times.  
I might answer, Allegare non est probare. Allegation is no demonstration, lest of all of human authority. And all this may be granted, and nothing gained to the cause. Dominus Demonstrator doth pass away in clouds of generality, and concludeth not the question. So that in steed of 18. demonstrations, there are 18. monsters, some without head, some without tail, some without middle, others without arm, all without harm, not able to affright the veriest fool that is, with so much as a false fear of losing the impregnable fort of the truth of our cause. * ⁎ *   

CAPUT SECUNDUM.  
IN the second chapter follow certain Maxims of their own, or certain Oracles of one T. C. tanquam ex tripod: which if you will not take upon T.C. his credit, you may take it upon the credit of 20. letters, or take unto you the whole Alphabet, to make demonstrations thereby.  
The 1. Proposition.  
No calling is lawful, but which is directly warranted out of the word, to him that executeth it. 
Demonstration.   
The 2. Proposition.  
The name and office of an Archbishop is contrary to the word of God.  
The 3. Proposition.  
No man may be ordained to an office, until a place be void as he is fit for.  
Every one of these propositions hath a special aim to the usual intended marks of a cavilling Sophister. 
Remonstrance.   
The 1. is.  
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or mere trifling, 
Aristot de reprehends, Soph.  as Aristotle saith, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  
Like as a Cuckoo to sing always one song: as in the former Chapter the Demonstrator trifleth up and down.  
The 2. is.  
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a false or stark staring lie, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to make a demonstration of a lie.  
The 3. is.  
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a mere Paradox, which never any but of this new fantasy said before.  
The saying is, A three twisted cord will not easily break asunder: but this thrice twisted cable knappeth asunder.  
If the Demonstrator will only propound, we may lawfully return these propositions home again.  
1.  
No calling is lawful, but directly warranted to him that executeth it.  
All lay Presbyteri, or unpreaching eldership, with the authority they attribute unto it, is unwarranted directly by God's word to them that do execute it: Ergo  
No such calling is lawful.  
2.  
No name of Superiority for order and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church, is contrary to the word: The name and office of Archbishop, Archdeacon, Deans, are such names and offices of Superiority: Ergo No names and offices of Archbishop & Archdeacon, etc. are contrary to the word.  
3.  
Paul, Barnabas, Epaphroditus, Andronicus, junius and others, were not forth with limited to a certain place: But Paul, Barnabas, Philip, etc. were ordained Ministers. Ergo,  
Certain were ordained Ministers not limited to a place.  
The 1. Demonstration, which is a reason of this 1. redoubted Proposition.  
If john were constrained to prove his ministery out of the word when the Priests accused him, 
Demonstration.  Then there is no lawful calling but warranted in the word: but he proved his calling: Ergo no calling lawful, but which is warranted in the word.  
To the Antecedent.  
This fallacy is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the consequent: 
Remonstrance.  The sequel of the Antecedent is to be denied, which is in plainer terms this, uz. There is no calling in the new, but is first warranted by some prophecy of the old Testament.  
To the Assumption.  
But he proved his ministery.  
Whether he proved or did not prove: whether he were accused or not accused, the ministery of john was a lawful ministery, their impeachment there of was not to hinder the execution of his ministery: The warrant rather is the immediate commission from heaven, and the prophecy that went of him to exercise his ministery. How followeth the Argument, à facto adius? Or from their constraint, to the warrantise of his calling? If any proof should be drawn for or against, it can be other in consequence then this.  
One extraordinary Minister did upon occasion of those that cavilled at him prove his extraordinary calling out of the word of God: Then every ordinary Minister may against wranglers prove his ordinary ministery out of the word to be the ordinance of God, Even so do we.  
Or this.  
johannes confessus est & non negavit: 
john 1.20.  john did confess and denied not, confessed who he was and denied not who he was: Even so in humility we ought to do, and semblably do.  
Unless it please you to argue after this sort out of the text: These things were done in Bethany or Bethabara beyond jordan, or john proved his ministery in Bethany or Bethabara beyond jordan: Ergo your ministery must be proved in Bethany beyond jordan: O than your reason hath a further fetch beyond or on the other side of jericho or jordan.  
Or else better after this sort.  
john exercised his ministery and proved it too, without warranty of an outward calling of any that sat in Moses chair: for the people held him for a Prophet. Ergo you have an exercise of your ministery without an outward calling, and may run before you are sent, and the people hold your prophecy and baptism to be true: But this will savour strongly of Anabaptisme I trow.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
The callings under the Gospel must have as good warrant as the callings under the Law: 
Demonstration.  But all callings under the Law (except miraculous) had direct warrant. Ergo.  
Ridetur chorda qui semper oberrat eadem: 
Remonstrance.  A bad harper harpeth always on one string.  
My answer is as unto the 7. & 8. Demonstrations. 1. Cap.  
Or I answer with concession because it is nothing to the question, and therefore your fight is with no body, but with the foolish fear of your own shadow.  
Or I answer by distinction thus.  
Direct warranty is either immediate from the voice of God, or which is mediate by direct consequency gathered out of the word of God: Such is any calling in the Church of England, by what name soever it be named, deducible from the word of God.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
If Corah, Dathan and Abyram were punished having no warrant of that they took in hand, 
Demonstration.  then is every calling generally warranted out of the word and particularly laid upon the parties.  
But the first is true, Ergo the second. 
Nomb. 16.   
This is well concluded: Your consequence of the Mayor no way followeth, 
Remonstrance.  except the want of warrantise had been the only cause of their punishment.  
You confess a truth before you are aware in the Minor, your own feters shall serve for your own feet.  
If Corah, Dathan and Abyram were swallowed up alive for insurrection against Moses and Aaron the high Priest, 
Retortion.  for ambitious seeking to be all high Priests, not contented with the ministery of the Tabernacle as inferior Levites, and for scismatical assertion, Is not the whole Congregation holy? Hij omnes sunt sancti: are not all these holy, that is sanctified to the Lord, 
Num. 16.3.  both intruding into the office, and obtruding to the people the office of the high Priest at that time: Must not the schismatics of our time, whose contradiction is the same, perish also in the same contradiction? Pares culpa, pares paena: like fault, like punishment without the mercy of God. But the Antecedent is true, Ergo, the consequent is together true: For these do the very same against those who are set over them in the Lord.  
Plus satis arrogatis vobis: Inter eos est jehova: quare ergo effertis vos super Congregationem jehovae?  
You take too much upon you, amongst them is the Lord: Is not all the Congregation holy? Why do you advance yourselves above the Congregation of the Lord? Are not all holy? all Ministers alike? and ministries? Is not the laity a holy presbytery to the Lord? Are not the Congregation interessed in the government of the Church?  
Nemo de vobis unus excellat:  
Omnem exuperantiam virtutis oderunt. 
Tusc. quest. lib. 5.   
Every of us is as good as other. These be as the voices of old schismatics were.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
That which giveth comfort in trouble, must have a warrant out of God's word: 
Demonstration.  But every lawful calling doth so. Ergo.  
The Argument lieth at Coward's ward. 
Remonstrance.   
We deny not but that all lawful callings have warrant of God's word, but not particularly or totidem verbis: For where findeth he a Master of an Hospital, a Printer, a Cartwright, a Saltepeter man, a shirte-maker, a gunne-maker, an Attorney in all Scripture?  Ante diem clauso componet vesper Olimpo. 
From morning unto night: Stans pede in uno, you may demonstrate thus.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
That which helpeth forward in godliness, 
Demonstration.  must have a warrant out of God's word: But every lawful calling helpeth forward in godliness. Ergo.  
These and such other like Arguments, 
Remonstrance.  are like to the Islands in Archipelago, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, lying in the middle way to be surprised of any man: or as the province of jewry and Syria: where of Tully saith, judaei et Sylli ad servitutem nati, 
De provin. consul.  bound to serve all turns, and pay tribute unto all who will make them tributary.  
Wastewordes of the Demonstrator.  
They confess all this to be true, 
Demonstration.  but deny the Archbishop and LL. B B. etc. to be distinct Ministers: which we hold to be distinguished, and by six Demonstrations do prove it, first thus.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
Those things which have diverse efficient causes, 
Demonstration.  are diverse: Our L L. B B. and the Ministers of the word have diverse efficient causes, the one the ordinance of God, the other of human policy. Ergo.  
We hold their ministery of the word to be as others, 
Remonstrance.  and there in equal, but for order and policy of the Church, a Superiority in government, censures, and ordinations, in which respect they are B B. So much Beza and Caluin also confess in effect, speaking of patriarchs, archbishops and Bishops in the primitive Church.  
To the Mayor.  
This must be true in natural, or in artificial and civil things, or true in neither: For some things have diverse efficients, and are the same things: other are diverse things, and have the same efficient. Ergo. It is true in neither.  
The brain of an Anabaptist and the brain of an ass have one efficient, and yet are diverse things.  
Sol et homo generant hominem: Sol et asinus generant asinum. unless you make an Anabaptist the foal of an ass.  
The soul of Novatus and the soul of T.C. have but one creator, and yet are individuated and divers things: unless you hold 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 transmigration into T.C. of Novatus soul.  
Again, if we might believe yourselves, Moses made the Sanedrim of old, or authorised it: Christ in your eldership made or authorised the Sanedrim of the new according to yourselves: These are diverse efficients, yet but one thing.  
The egg of this birds laying, and of another birds hatching, hath divers efficients, but yet is one chick.  
Diversities of efficient church writes and reformers of the state, belike must needs breed diversity of reformation of the state, and diverse communion books, as fell out within two years experience thrice diversely: your Presbyteries, your Classies, and your Synods, severally may make or ordain ministers, and these be diverse assemblies: ergo, their ministries be divers, that so diversly be ordained and called of them.  
The Minor cannot pass, it is passing nought: viz. our BB. and the ministers have diverse efficients, as themselves do confess. Who ever of us did confess the BB. to be a mere human constitution? Therefore let this lie. As for the word and title of Lord (in which limitation, they think a great advantage lurketh) it is but per accidens, as they have Baronries'. If it were otherwise, why not titles of honour due to them, if honour be due? The efficient of BB. in respect they are ministers, is God: as BB. properly, is also God: Omnis potestas a Deo. For admit all their authority or names were not specifically expressed, shall not their power therefore be of God? else where be the four Syndicts of Genevaes' authority? For there is no such office named particularly in scripture. See the 304. page of the defence of the answer to the admonition, whose plain distinction is: That great is the odds, to be ordained of Christ for external policy of the Church, and to be constituted for mere humane policy. Vide Sarau. lib. 1. de diversis grad. minist.  
This conclusion therefore driveth the dust and wind of their folly into their own eyes.  
God and christian policy ordaineth all ministers,  
Ergo, all ministers have the same efficient.  
Or, God and christian policy ordaineth all ministers.  
God and christian policy are not diverse efficients, (as this diverse man doth dream) but subordinate: for all christian policy is the good gift of God, and therefore no efficient absolute of itself, but effected by God.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
A diverse form maketh diverse things: 
Demonstration.  ministers of the word and the LL. BB. have diverse forms, as their ordination, sith one L.B. may ordain a minister, but there must be three to ordain one of them: Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
Whether you mean accidental form or substantial, 
Remonstrance.  it is not ever true, viz. diverse forms make divers things: you know the old said saw, Ouorum inter se similitudo. Nothing so like as an egg to an egg: Nothing so like as Hypocrates two twins: which (in specie) were not different things, yet the one was not the other.  
Again, diverse forms are in any thing: as Trigonus in Tetragono, the one included in the other: or where the one is ordained for the complement and perfection of the other: 
2. physic.  Homo prius vivit vitam plantae, deinde bruti, postremò hominis.  
To the Minor.  
The ministers and the LL. BB. have one essential form in their ordination to the ministery, as in giving them the ministerial charge of the word & the administration of the sacraments, which is his commission for the ministry. The form is all one: the consecration of a B. which is a commission for superior authority in ordinations and jurisdictions, with the censures, or whatsoever else is annexed thereunto, is never a deal the more for the presence of three, any new or strange ordiantion of a ministry. For accidens non mutat speciem subiecti: yet is it such, as if we read all the old fathers, counsels, and other antiquity, (who were like to know best in what sort the apostles planted & established churches) ye shall never find above one B. required at the ordination of any presbyter a priest or minister: but 2. BB. at least, and the Metropolitan at the consecration of a B. according to which number, our book of ordination in that behalf was framed, & it may be gathered from the like ordination of Paul and Barnabas in the thirteenth of the Acts: the one of which was an apostle, the other vir apostolicus before: from which example, I reason thus:  
Either this new ordination of Paul by the prophets and doctors of Antioch gave him a new and diverse ministery from his former, so that he continued not an Apostle still: or else by this accession no such alteration is made.  
But he continued an apostle still, ergo, by this accession of ordination or function no such diversity was made. And consequently, an accession of function or authority unto our BB. by their consecration, maketh them not cease to be ministers of the word still, which is contradictory to their mayor, and therefore that untrue. But to pommel them about the pates with their own sword, thus again I may reason.  
A diverse form maketh diverse things:  
Ministers and Elders in a church not yet established, must be chosen and ordained by the whole church: but in a church established, by the presbytery alone, (as their own platformers describe) which too be divers forms and diverse members of ordeiners: ergo, they who be chosen and ordained after the first manner, have a diverse ministry and eldership from such as be of the latter making: and consequently, the first being of another kind, cannot choose or ordain any of the second sort, and so shall their new discipline be nipped in the head, and stand after possibility of issue extinct. Or thus:  
A diverse form maketh diverse things.  
All our new discipliners (saving the church of Scotland which thinketh it a needless abrogated ceremony) in ordination of elders do necessarily require and use imposition of hands: ergo the ministers of Scotland have a several function and ministry from all reformed churches beside.  
Or reason for yourselves, and reason thus:  
Mixed forms put together make either no thing (quia species cum specie non copulatur etc.) or a mingle mangle, 
Retortion of their argument.  erratum naturae a monstrous thing.  
The new manner and guise of ordination by combining laity and clergy, is not actus purus, but a compound and mixed form: ergo, such ordination by the imposing of hands of laity and clergy, maketh their ministery either a nullity, or a monstrous thing.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
Members of one division are distinct one from another. 
Demonstration.   
The L.BB. and ordinary ministers are members of one division: for the ministers are divided into the Rulers and ruled: Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
The axiom is, 
Remonstrance.  Membra unius divisionis contra distinguuntur de se invicem non predicantur, are not verifiable one of another. As a man is not an horse, prudence is not fortitude, fortitude is not prudence: howbeit, they are concident in uno subiecto, as temperance and prudence in one Scipio. Secondarily, conveniunt in aliquo superiori, meet and concur in one general or universal, a man and beast in one living creature. This is T.C. oversight. See the defence of the answer to the admonition: 203. pa.  
To the Minor.  
The Minor we distinguish.  
The Ministers are not oppositively distinguished, but relatively. Or, the division is of the common of more, into the common of the less. They are not of divers predicaments.  
The argument to be framed is thus.  
Every B. is not an inferior minister: ergo, every inferior minister is not a B. in or out of his parish: viz. a parish B. which these men crave.  
The fallacy is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  It is absurd to argue thus: The BB. and other inferior ministers are according to superiority and inferiority of order distinct: ergo, altogether and in every respect distinct. Or, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (the word that importeth ministers aswell as deacons) or ministers are divided into BB. and priests: ergo BB. are not priests. Or thus: Their officers ecclesiastical are divided into pastors, doctores, presbyteros, et diaconos: ergo, pastors non sunt presbyteri, et per consequens non sunt de presbyterio: Pastors are none Elders, and therefore are not of the Eldership.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
The thing that have diverse effects, are divers in themselves one from another: 
Demonstration.  The LL.BB. and other ministers have diverse effects. The one effecteth government, the other subjection. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
What a confident Demonstration call you this? An 100 
Remonstrance.  Instances to one thing.  Eaedem causae sunt interimentes quae efficientes. 
Contrary effects issue out of one cause or thing. God maketh the wound, and healeth, job 4. una eaedemque manus vulnus opemque tulit. The sun melteth wax, & indurateth clay, which are contrary effects and diverse things.  
To the Minor.  
The Argument is builded upon the sand of ignoration Elenchi: The answer is, The LL.BB. and ministers do neither affect nor effect, secundum idem, ad idem, simpliciter, & eodem tempore diverse things. The one in his Parish, the other in his Diocese, both are rulers as far as Law giveth leave, the one hath more command, the other less. Magis & minus non variat speciem: More or less government make no opposition of government. Obediant (saith Ignatius) Laici Diaconis, Diaconi Presbyteris, 
Ignat. Epi. 7. ad Smirn.  Presbyteri Eppiscopo, Episcopus Christo, sicut ipse patri. The subjection of the one is the fair degree of government for the other: The Lord Maior and the Aldermen of several Wards, the one effecteth rule, the other obedience, both respect order: These are adverse in a regard, not contrary things.  
Me thinketh some amongst you should reason for you thus:  
They who affect tyranny over all, 
Retortion.  and they who effect obedience unto none, are diverse in themselves, and contrary unto all: But the Signiory or Presbytery, affecteth an ambition and rule over all persons, and over all matters, as in the learned discourse their words do assertively import: Ergo, the Signiory is contrary unto all, and concording with none: and therefore, as they of the Concision then amongst the old jews, so they of the Precision, (who in this are as bad as Iewes) are at variance with all, and agreement with none: But as Ismaels' hand against every man, so every man's hand against Ishmael.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
They who are employed about divers things, are divers one from another: 
Demonstration.  The LL.BB. and ordinary Ministers are so. Ergo, For the one hath the view of many Congregations, the other the direction of one particular.  
To the Mayor.  
Adignorationem elenchi reduci possunt omnes elenchi, 
Remonstrance.  & paralogisimi, saith Aristotle: This fallacious stone is digged out of the former quarry.  
Those which are employed about diverse things, are diverse for time of employment, not diverse in office and nature.  
One mortal King hath two Ambassadors in divers regions, their Commission is alike, both Ambassadors. Or, one immortal King hath two Apostles, one for the circumcision or dispersion of the jews, another for the gathering and conversion of the Gentiles: And yet but one Apostleship, 
2. Cor. 5.  and embassage for faith in Christ. Legatione pro Christo fungimur.  
To the Minor.  
The Minor is not precisely true: the Bishops have no such care of all, that therefore they do no good to any particular Church, sith their sea must be there: But as S. Paul having care of all, and for all Congregations, be doing good in one, As the soul and life is distributed into all and every part. Anima est in toto, & totum in qualibet part.  
The ordinary Minister hath direction of one Congregation, saith the Demonstrator, Ergo the same Minister hath government of one or of few, so many as are within the charge of that Congregation.  
This is a contradiction sith many and few are always in relation. 
Contradiction to yourselves.  Oportet mendacem esse memorem: A liar must be mindful of the beginning of his tale: This manner of Demonstration is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  
But you say: 
Retortion.  They which are employed about divers things, are diverse.  
The Martinists rail, & the Puritans would pull down Cathedral Churches, certain of them would take the pains to pull down all Churches: These are employments about divers things, and yet you & the Martinists are loath to be accounted scarce divers kind of men.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
That which is perpetual, 
Demonstration.  & that which may be taken away by men, are distinct things: The office of the Minister is perpetual, & the BB. may be taken away, as themselves confess, Ergo they are distinct the one from the other.  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is false, if you mean distinct, re & subiecto as the schoolmen say: as for distinct ratione, in consideration, we will easily grant.  
The prince of Philosophers saith, Corruptibile & incorruptibile differunt plusquam genere. But what your meaning is of distinct, I can not attain: whether that which is always and every way distinct, or no way distinct, or how many ways: Distinguish it, that we may have issue of the question. The body & soul, the one is corruptible, the other incorruptible, distinctly considerable, are unum subiecto, one thing: Anima in coniuncto.  
To the Minor.  
You take this pro confesso: But you often mistake, as a child would do a counter for gold, or as fools often do, chalk for cheese. He that reporteth a slanderous tale, if he cannot produce his Author, must father it himself. We always allow of the perpetuity of the office, & that it may not be done away, though there be no doubt, but some accidents thereof may lawfully (yet perhaps none conveniently) be changed.  
If the governing Ministers be perpetual, the government and ministrations are perpetual also. He that ministereth, in the ministery, He that governeth, in his government. 
Rom. 12.   
I propound this Dilemma: 
Retortion.  Either all Ministers are perpetual, or all temporal, or some temporal and some perpetual. All Ministers temporal, you will not say for shame, as you make your Elders for a year or two, and so temporary if not temporal: To aver all perpetual, is to gainsay yourselves. If you say and unsay, some of these Ephes. 4. are perpetual, and others are not: Show by plain Demonstration which are, and which are not, or by the clear light of any collection out of any other place produce your Tetrarchy, as it were the half face of Venus painted by Apelles, or as it were another with two faces, your Doctor and Pastor, your Elder and Deacon, the one before, the other behind: or else with shame and confusion cover your face.  
The 2. Proposition.  

1. The name and office of the Archbishop is contrary to the word. 
Demonstration.   
2. The name of the Archbishop is unlawful to give to any man in the Church of God.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
No man may have that name given to him which is proper to our Saviour jesus Christ: 
Heb. 12.2. & 13. chap. 20.1. pet. 5.4. Acts. 3.15. & 5.31.  But the name of Archbishop is proper to him. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
By proper you mean appropriate unto the essence of God and Christ, 
Remonstrance.  and that is an ineffable name, which is jehova: Name of essence as the Hebrews do expound, who can tell his name, or who can tell his sons name? The name of his office the Angel could foretell: They shall call his name jesus. Generationem eius quis enarrabit? 
Absurdity.  This is a proper manner of reasoning: No man can design or assign the name essential unto Christ. Ergo, None can give to any man the name of the offices and honours in a secondary respect.  
To the Minor.  
You say the name of Archbishop is proper unto Christ by the places quoted in the magent: Well do you quote a margin, you cannot quote a text: never a place of those termeth him Archbishop: Ergo, we intrude not upon the name of Christ: Sith archbishop is none (in the letter of the new Testanment) of the names belonging unto Christ. But either we intrude upon the iniquity or equity of this name, you will not say with unreverence, there is iniquity in the name wherewith Christ is named: admitting therefore no iniquity in the name, & for disputes sake that it is Christ his name: as well as Archduke and author of our faith: 
Heb. 12.2. & 13.20. Act. 3.15. & 5.31.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Great shepherd of the sheep ye have killed, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Prince of life. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, A Prince and Saviour: or high Shepherd and chief ruler. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to rule as well as to feed, yet you can not term it intrusion to resort unto the name, or to resume the equity of the name.  
Our rule which you never can refute, is this.  
Those names which are attributed unto Christ, may in subalternal respects without rapine or ambition be attributed unto man, as Rabbi, Master, Doctor, high Priest, high Shepherd, Archbishop also if it were found attributed unto Christ. Magistrates be called Gods.  
Your fallacious Rule and maxim is without reason, without religion, without rule.  
Wheresoever you find 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 preposed before a name, your outcry is: It is unlawful for any man to invest him with the name or tilt in a secondary respect, and that after Christ.  
This is a most fallacious & erroneous rule: for the name agreeth secundum prius et posterius, analogically: viz. Christ is a chief builder, and layeth himself as a foundation or corner stone: yet Saint Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a wise chief or master builder layeth a foundation: Christ chief leader Archduke of our faith: others also spiritual fathers, and begetters principal guides of faith, 
1. Cor. 3.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Christ is high priest: yet this title in Christ's time was attributed to some of the priests. Christ is head of the nations. psal. 2. yet Paul calleth a man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Christ is chief in all congregations, 
Psal. 2.  yet were some men 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and though Christ be prince of angels, yet is the trump of Archangel mentioned afore judgement, and ten juny cannot persuade me, that the Archangel in Jude that durst not give ill language but said, the Lord rebuke thee, was Christ: vide 2. Pet. 2. ca v. 11. Christ a chief minister and washed his Apostles feet, in humility is called 8. Heb. v. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: minister of holy things, and of the true tabernacle, also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 high or chief priest or chiefest minister, for he came not to be ministered unto, but to minister. Yet nevertheless he hath a name above all names: 
20. Matth. 28. v  underneath him are many ministers, 1. Cor. 3.5. v. what is Paul, what is Apollo's; but the ministers by whom you have believed? and yet none of you dare say, but they were chief ministers, or had care of many congregations, as our Archbishops, or chief BB. have, or as our chiefeministers or archdeacon's have. Christ is the chief shepherd or chief ruler of his sheep: other inferior pastors are superintendents over the flock, but all after him: Christ chief or great master or doctor: Saint Paul, doctor gentium, doctor of the gentiles: he that is first and foremost in order and superiority amongst men: he that seeketh the primacy, qui primatum quaerit minister sit 20. Matth. 26. v. 
20. Mat. 26. v.  qui Episcopatum desideder at praeclarum opus desiderat: He that occupieth the primacy must hold on his ministry: he that desireth a Bishopric desireth but a work, yea a commendable and godly labour and work. And to cut you of from all colour, will you say, that the princes of the earth may not without blasphemy be called monarchs because the etymology seemeth to exclude all others even God himself from any rule, seeing it specifieth sole rulers? But if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, were granted to be all one (which is untrue) because the one signifieth feeding and ruling, the other but inspection: yet is Christ called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the article: td est, that chief Shepherd universal, and without limitation of place or time, whereas Archbishops are chief BB. with limitation to a certain province and limits, and not simply, but in respect of the BB. within that circuit, for retaining of order in Synods, and for redress upon appellations happening in that province.  
For shame T C. and you the counterpoysoner help the Demonstrator to a cunninger Sophism than this.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
If the name of the Pope be odious because of that Antichrist who is entitled therewith, 
Demonstration.  then also the name of Archbishop when it is ascribed to a mortal man, forasmuch as it is a title of a special member of Antichrist: But the first is true, Ergo, the later is true: The first is true by their own confession 300. pag. of the defence of the answer to the admonition.  
To the Antecedent.  
We deny the antecedent and the sequel of the same. 
Remonstrance.   
This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to trifle and sing always one song. Say you, if the Pope being Antichrist, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that great Antichrist. This is an identical affirmation, Antichrist is Antichrist. What meaning carrieth this?  
But let us take the meaning, and not the disorder of the words.  
If the name of the Pope be odious because of Antichrist of whose mystical iniquity he is the head, than also the name of the Archbishops being a title of a special member of Antichrist, must be odious therewith: This is your argument, if a man will unfold it: But this is most odiously argued against the most reverend and christian name of Archbishops. The name & office of Archbishops was in sundry places of the world before BB. of Rome were antichrist's: ergo, Archbishop's no members of Antichrist 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Why not all deacons odious because of popish deacons? Of this foolish figment of your fantastical brain, or false supposal, it followeth by semblable consequency, that if the Archbishops be odious because of the pope, the Bishops are odious because of the Archbishops, the priests are odious because of the Bishops, the deacons are odious because of the priests and so for one disorderly step or gradation from the Archbishops upward, all orderly hierachie from the Archbishops downward to the deacons, from the deacons upward to the Archbishops, shallbe drawn into obloquious hatred: as some of your Brownists condemn all church policy and refer to Antichrist, and so likewise all our universities are calumniously traduced by you to be the dishes of Antichrist wherein he is served, being colleges of the prophets and serviceable nurses to the church.  
What manner of reasoning call you this?  
If the name of infinite and illimitable jurisdiction be odious, 
Fowl absuditie of the Demonstrator.  Ergo, the name of that which is bounded within limits must be odious likewise: Or if the name of universal and transcendent power that climbeth over all, be hateful: Ergo, the name of a modest and measurable power and superiority is full of hatred also?  
This is an absurdity in sight of every man.  
Finiti ad infinitum nullae est proportio. Between a thing finite and infinite there is no proportion.  
The repercussive rather maketh against you thus.  
If the name of so vast and infinite authority be intolerable in the church, 
Retortion.  and antichristian: the name of a determined and precincted authority is tolerable and christian: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  
If this followeth upon that, the opposite followeth of contrary or opposite: contrariae sunt contrariorum consequentiae: 
Ar. Repraeh. Soph.  contrary followeth upon contraries.  
To the assumption.  
But the name of the Pope is odious (say you,) because of that Antichrist: Not because he used the name, but because he abused the name, the name is odious at this day.  
If you make this a maxim, as T.C. and all his fellows do: viz. whatsoever is used by the Pope and church of Rome, must be deadly hated for his and their sakes: you make a wooden ado then. Though Nero and Caligula abuse the name of God, or willbe called Gods being by nature no gods, shall not we therefore invocate and call upon the name of God, the everliving God? Albeit Tarqvinius made the name of a King odious, in that he governed all domesticis consiliis, as Livy reporteth, and by other misdemeanour of himself: doth it therefore follow, we must detest the name of a King? Although the false prophets prophesied lies in the name of the living God, shall we shake of other good prophets for their name's sake? though the persons degenerate, the name may continue unless it be a name of blasphemy, wherewith no name is named in our church policy.  
How say you to this?  
If one Pope be odious because of that one Antichrist, 
Retortion of the argument upon the Demonstrator.  than many pope's be odious because of many Antichrists. No Archbishop hath so popelike authority as you claim: no man may propound but yourselves, and so you have a negative voice: you would examine and censure kings: you claim to make laws and orders for the church, without the Prince's authority, and your sentences stand not suspended upon an appellation: no Archbishop in her majesties dominions hath any such authority: S. john saith there are many antichrists: 
Tertull de prescript. adver. haeret.  Qui pseudoprophetaenisi falsi praedicatores? qui pseudo apostoli nisi falsi evang elizatores? qui antichristi interim & semper nisi Christi rebels? Who are false prophets, but false preachers? who are false apostles but false gospelers? who are Antichrist between this and the world's end, but such who are contumacious and rebellious against Christ? who if that you appose yourselves against the christian magistracy & holy ministry of Christ, profane the priesthood by erecting a laical presbytery: 
2. Thes. 2.  advance yourselves 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the temple against all that is called God, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, against the reverend Archbishops & BB. who bear this jurisdiction for and in the name of Christ and God.  
The demonstrator as it were weary of demonstration leaveth his forest bill or long staff, and taketh a shorter pair of codgels into his hand, goeth to ob. and So. Dolus an virtus quis in host requirit? what piety in an adversary is this to muster our argument and authorities for us? there can be little disadvantage in this, for he disputeth pro et contra: First out of the defence of the answer to the admonition. 318. pag.  
The 1. objection of the Demonstrator.  
Clemens alloweth these names as Polidore lib. 4. cap. 12. reporteth. 
Demonstration.   
The Answer of the demonstrator.  
Polidore is but a reporter, & Clemens is a counterfeit & worthy of no credit.  
He that used the argument pag. 318. 
Remonstrance with reply.  used it as a probable testimony for the antiquity of the name, not as infallible ground or certainty to prove the name and thing: for that the said author or defender proveth, together with the equity of the name and thing, out of the word of God sufficiently: but you sir deal very handsomely, like a mad dog which biteth any alive or dead. Mortui non mordent, the dead bite not him, for any thing your profoundness knoweth, Polydore Virgil might have seen Compendiarium Christianae religionis, of Clemens his book, who compiled his own book out of such notices which he compiled and rob from our Library books in England, and therefore it is a probability he had seen the right & orthodox Clemens, not the counterfeit Clemens, whose epistles and bastardy no man defendeth. But every Clement with you is a counterfeit Clement. Your clemency and courtesy in arguing thus to and fro is but a counterfeit clemency.  
The 2. Objection.  
Erasmus saith, Titus was an Archbishop.  
Answer.  
He spoke as the times wherein he lived: 
Demonstration.  but that proveth not that he held him one in deed, no more than our naming the Archbishop of Canturburie proveth that we like his authority.  
This man the Demonstrator, holdeth as good opinion of Erasmus, 
Remonstrance with reply.  as Bellarmin the jesuite, who termeth him semichristianun: as if Erasmus speaketh that which he doth not believe, or loquitur secundùm vulgus, non ex animi sententia. 
T C. the master and Demonstratour the man at variance.  But what saith T.C. to this? forsooth this: Erasmus saith, S. Paul did inform Timothy of the office of a Bishop, and Titus and Timothy had an office, ergo, Titus was no Archbishop, according to T.C. because he was a Bishop: and the man reasons thus in old earnest.  
As for you, and the whole unlettered sort of Puritans, and T. C. your leader, name the Archbishop when and where, and how often you please, neither shall you be compeers with Erasmus, neither will any wise man hold his authority to be more or less for you. Finally for T.C. who is opinative that Titus was neither Archbishop nor Bishop, (which the scholiast in Greek doth easily yield unto) but rather an Evangelist, he is a mad man, and will infinitely deny and revenge him in the end. Plus potest unus asinus negare, quàm mill Augustini possunt probare. An ass may deny more, than a thousand Austin's shall be able to prove. Yet the subscription, the consent of the Fathers, his constitution of Bishops in that large Island of Candie, joined with the epistle, will prove more than T.C. conjecture. And how followeth this, he was a Preacher of the Gospel or Evangelist, ergo none Archbishop? was not Idmes an Apostle, and Bishop of jerusalem?  
The 3. Objection.  
Anacletus saith, 
Demonstration.  james was first Archbishop of jerusalem.  
Answer.  
He is forged, as our answer to the Papists have showed: But Eusebius li. 2. cap. 25. calleth him Bishop, and Simeon after him, li. 3. cap. 22. and so Irenaeus li, 4. ca 63. Apostles ordained Bishops every where, making no mention of Archbishops.  
This is the readiest answer that cometh out of your forge. 
Remonstrance with reply.  Bishop jewel in his question between us and you, vouchsafeth to allege Anacletus, whom you so peremptorily reject. Anacletus (saith he) that was next after Peter, if there be any weight in his word, nameth Archbishop Anacletus as nearer unto those times, in his epistle, 1. Tom. Council. saith, james called justus, was Archbishop of jerusalem. Now say you, Eusebius calleth him but Bishop of jerusalem, (by the way T.C. giveth or dareth you a false quotation 22. cap. for 11. cap.) ergo, no Archbishop. It would scare a man to reason with you: you do it so clearly, as if a chief among Bishops, or Archbishop, were not a Bishop. Howbeit neither Eusebius, nor Irenaeus speaketh exclusively: for every Archbishop is a Bishop, not every Bishop an Archbishop, è converso. Hîc semper erras. To reason from authorities negatively, is an affirmative impudency. As rightly might you reason, and do wrong to divine authority, Moses made Captains of 100 and 1000 ergo, Moses made not any superior Magistrate, as the 72. Or Christ sent 72. Disciples, ergo, he sent none of the 12. Apostles, or any other officers.  
The 4. Objection.  
The Council of Nice, 
Demonstration.  canon. 6. mentioneth a Metropolitan Bishop.  
Answer.  
That proveth nothing, it is as much as Bishop of the chief City.  
You cut off the definition of the Archbishop at the waste: 
Remonstrance with reply.  for the Council not only mentioneth a Metropolitan, who is idem re, which the Archbishop is, but defineth him also: Cui convenit definitio, conveniet definitum: & è contrà. Antiqua consuetudo servetur per Aegyptum, Libyam, Pentapolim, ut Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem. 6. ca Let the old custom be kept throughout Egypt, Libya, Pentapolis, that the bishop of Alexandria have his iutisdiction or authority over them. It was then no novelty, but an ancient and primitive custom. What is the Archbishop or Metropolitan bishop? one who hath power, one who must be primus inter eos, first or chief, 
6. can.  or primate amongst them, 33. ca Apostol. quodammodo pro capite 35. ca Apost. 
33. can. Apostol. 35. can. Apostol.  as it were their head, head of the rest: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, one that hath care of the whole province. conc. Antio. ca 9 
ca 9 conc. Antio.  What is a Metropolitan bishop, but an Archbishop? None was to be ordained a B. without the consent of the Metropolitan bishop.  
This is a great reproof to him that is not past blushing, when he shall allege that which convinceth himself, as this doth you. A little bringing about will make you confess in plainness, which you confess in circumlocution. It is but nicety thus to deal with the famous Council of Nice.  
The 2. part of the Proposition.  
That the office of Archbishop is contrary to the word of God. 
Demonstration.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
Every ministery lawful, is of God.  
The office of Archbishop is not described in the word, nor of God, but of human policy: ergo, unlawful.  
To the Mayor.  
This is one of your Demonstrations à causaremota, 
Remonstrance.  when you fetch your medius terminus so far of, as from God, & never quote a place: but I grant your Mayor, if you can prove the Minor.  
To the Minor.  
The office of the Archbishop is from God, 
Cyp. li. 1.11.50. secundùm Dei dignationem sacerdotium Dei ad ministramus. Contradiction to themselves.  and described in God's word: that it is not of mere human policy, you are answered before, but of God, though mediatively by divine permission, permissione divina, as themselves in humility do confess. Observe this by the way, as a contradiction you make unto yourselves. Where you now say, the office is not described in the word, a little before you say, the Archbishop doth usurp Christ his proper name, which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Archbishop, or high or chief pastor. Now to every name longeth a charge and office, and to the name pastor and bishop, longeth an office, and so per consequens to the Archbishop, as sometime to Titus and Timothy, an higher charge and pastoral office.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That ministery whose original is unknown, hath no warrant in God's word, 
Demonstration.  and is unlawful: the Archbishop is so. pag. 351. of the Defense of the answer to the Admonition. ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor I deny, 
Remonstrance.  and distinguish upon this word unknown: unknown is an ambiguous word.  
There is an original of the name, & of the nature of the name. There is ignotum nobis, & ignotum natura, unknown to us, and unknown in nature: which unknown do you mean, make it once known. 
Lucan.  I may say unto you, as the Poet Lucan said: ignotum vobis Arabes venistis in orbem: you are children of a strange world, that coming into the world of Christianity, make the Archbishop's ministery an unknown thing.  
To the Minor.  
If you mean unknown the nature and equity of the thing, this is utterly false: the superiority of the Archbishops is most clearly known, 
Council, Antioch.  both in and before the first Council of Nice, and in the Ecclesiastical history, and lineally descended from the Apostles themselves. It skilleth not for the original of the name, sith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may bear equivalency with the name, sith in the practice of the Apostles a blind man may see, also amongst the primitive Christians, a superior authority supported by the name. But if your meaning be, it is unknown to you contemners and breakers down of the hedge and wall of all jurisdiction, it maketh no matter what is known or unknown unto you, who have forgotten all together, and know not yourselves.  
See now whether this Syllogism can be retorted upon yourselves? 
Retortion of the argument.   
That public function whose original is utterly strange and unknown in nature and in name, hath no warrant in the word, nor is authorized in the Church.  
Your confused popular unpreaching, temporary, mechanical Presbyteri, or Aldermanship, is utterly unknown, but within these few years of late, neither is it known to any but yourselves, if perhaps you know it yourselves: ergo, it is neither warranted by God, nor aught to be authorised by the Church.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
The office which is needless in the Church is unlawful. 
Demonstration.   
The Archbishop's office is needless, because the ministery is perfect without it, Eph. 4.11. Ergo. 
Eph. 4.11.   
To the Mayor.  
This demonstration is rather folly than fallacy: 
Remonstrance.  the Medium or proof there is needless. In deed less need of this then of that before. Bare need maketh you demonstrate after this sort, your argument is but mistaken. It is not à non necessario, sed ab independente. My answer therefore is.  
Not every thing seeming needless in human prejudice, is forth with unlawful in Gods divine judgement.  
To the Minor.  
This is a most lewd affirmation in the Minor, that the Archbishop's office is needless, because the ministery is perfect without it. The Demonstrator is as bold as any man, and as blind as whosoever: but boldness and blindness are the two helps. As for the reason that the ministery is perfect without it, it is an unperfect reason: For as justly may he say the office of a Christian King is needless in the church, because the ministery is perfect without it. This is a doubtful clause to leave the ministery in speculation, not in action: or to consider of the being of the ministery, not of the well being of the same. Let this one word serve for your answer, if you will be answered. The perfectness of the ministery doth not overturn the needfulness of government or direction by the Archbishop, I dare avouch he knoweth not wherein an Archbishop's office here consisteth.  
That which is needless, is unlawful, etc. 
Retortion of the argument.   
The office of Churchaldermen over all men, and all manners, is needless in our Church, where a Christian magistracy is established already, and because no place of Scripture affirmeth for it, Ergo, it is unlawful in the Church, and none but T.C. idest, thankless curiosity would bring it in place. Or this.  
That which is needless, is unlawful.  
All courts of Record, as Chancery and Common pleass, etc. shall be found needless if the Consistory of Presbyters and Elders were set up, which is only needful, or else full of need, in the Church or congregation of the faithful brethren, because they may determine all matters wherein any breach of charity may be, as the Admonitioner saith: Ergo, all Courts of Record, as Chancery, Common pleas, etc. by their reason will be found all unlawful.  
Thus than we reason out of their own grounds.  
What office soever is needless, idest, is not necessarily required in the Church, the same is unlawful.  
The Christian princes supreme government in causes ecclesiastical (if we believe these men) is needless: for the learned discourser (who saith the Church was most flourishing when there was no Christian magistrate) & T.C. saith no less, who findeth no difference between an heathen and a Christian king touching the matter of intermeddling in church government, jumping therein with Harding and other papists: Ergo, (by this assertion) the princes supreme government is unlawful: which unsound and rebellious conclusion very necessarily followeth, not only of this assertion, but of infinite other their speeches. Or thus.  
The office which is needless, is unlawful.  
The having of an Eldership in every congregation, is needles, for one Eldership in the town serveth for the whole country belonging to Geneva, where nevertheless they have divers Churches and their several ministers. And so in Scotland where there be but few Elderships in comparison of the several congregations, yet these Churches were reform will you say. Likewise the having of a Doctor in every congregation, and Deacons to be of the Eldership, is an office needless, for they have them not so in France or Scotland, though most of our platformers require both: Ergo, the having of an Eldership, or of Doctor, or Deacons to be of the Eldership in every congregation are offices unlawful. By which examples also appeareth the falsehood of the Minor: because the ministery is perfect without those in such places, and yet the Demonstrationer will not affirm the Eldership, Doctor and Deacon to be needless.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
If all gifts for perfecting of the Church needful be appropriated unto other ministers, 
Demonstration.  then is his ministery unlawful: But all are appropriated to those four, Ephesians 4. Pastor, Doctor, Elder and Deacon, whereof he is none. Ergo.  
This hypothetical Syllogism is as bad a Paralogism as T.C. his simple Syllogism refuted at large in the defence of the answer to the Admonition, 
Remonstrance.  pag. 316. I may well call it T.C. his whirlpool, because he drowneth himself and his scholars in it. Thus:  
Those functions only are sufficient for the Church, which have all gifts needful, etc.  
But all those functions reckoned of Paul, Ephe. 4. & 1. Cor. 12 have the gifts needful: ergo, those functions only are sufficient for the Church.  
As if a man did argue thus.  
Those things only are sufficient to salvation which are contained in the Scripture. 
Absurdity of T.C. and of the Demonstrator.  But all things in the ave Maria are contained in the Scripture: ergo, those things in the ave Maria are only sufficient to salvation.  
Or as cunningly after this sort.  
Those only are men which are endued with reason. But all the Costermongers of London are endued with reason: ergo, the Costermongers of London are the only men.  
Where the Mayor is particular, the argumentation of sole particulars, and hath no force of reason, the Medium or argument hath this word Only in the Maior cum subiecto, and is left out in the Minor. Besides all this, it concludeth affirmatiuè in the second figure, against the law of due conclusion: finally, it lacketh both mood and figure, and lacketh no fault.  
To the sequel of the Antecedent.  
The sequel is untrue: for dealing with the Church stock themselves say, it was appropriate Act. 6. to 7. Deacons, yet Act. 11. the collection was sent, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, for the administration, not to such as we call commonly and peculiarly Deacons, but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to the priests or ministers, yet this not unlawful in them.  
To the Assumption.  
Both sides, back and belly, turn which side you will hereof, is a shameless untruth: for God hath not appropriated the gifts to those 4. nor to any other, 4. or 5. titles and names of offices in Church: but he doth tie and untie, confer and bestow the gift on such an office, which is fit for the commodity of the Church, in what measure he pleaseth.  
Elders and Deacons are not once mentioned in that text: therefore thus I reason. If all gifts needful for perfecting of the Church be appropriated unto the Ministers mentioned, Ephes. 4. then the ministery of Elders and Deacons is unlawful, much less is it needful for perfecting of the Church.  
But by the Demonstrator (and his customers, of whom he borroweth) all needful gifts are appropriate to Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets (now wholly ceased as they say) and to Pastors and Doctors which only remain. Ergo, Elders and Deacons are both needless and unlawful: neither will their old silly shift shroud them: viz. that Ministers of the word are there only meant. First, because no such distinction is there made, or to be collected: Vbi lex non distinguit, nec nos debemus, and they should least of all so gather, who reason in all matters negatively out of Scriptures: for either it must teach this distinction, or else it is no good way that is taught. Secondly, for that Elders & Deacons either are contained under some of these, or else they have no gifts or blessings from Christ annexed to their callings: for that those are the gifts which Christ ascending gave to his Church. Thirdly, because those officers mentioned, Ephes. 4. are given as sufficient of Christ, not only for the work of the ministery, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, but for the gathering together of the Saints, and building of the body of the Church: two special effects (if we should believe them) of their presbyteries, than what gifts will remain, and to what end, which may be bestowed on their Elders and Deacons? all that Christ gave (as themselves speak) being appropriate and taken up afore, by others? Or thus. If all such gifts for the work of the ministery, etc. be appropriate to Pastors and Doctors which still remain, then are the gifts peculiar to Apostles, Evangelists and Prophets either ceased with them, because several functions (they say) have always several and peculiar gifts, & è converso: so that Pastors and Doctors shall not have any gifts which any of the other three had: or if this be absurd, because Christ hath given them all to his Church (as is there testified) until we all meet together in the unity of faith, and knowledge of the son of God unto a perfect man, and unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ (which shall not be till the consummation of all things) therefore (setting aside some extraordinary points that were personal to some few in those times) all these functions and offices are ordinary, and remain still in the Church, whatsoever some writers say to the contrary: albeit through the great diversity of the measure of gifts, it be difficult to set down certainly in all times what offices do answer unto which of every of them. But forsomuch as the consent of all ancient writers making bishops both a divine institution (saving only Hierome in two places, being thereby also contrary to himself elsewhere) and successors of the Apostles, for the planting of sundry Churches at first, or establishing and governing Churches already planted: concurreth with the uniform practice of all the Churches in the world, from the Apostles time downward, and is not contraried by the word: therefore I mustneedes (with that incomparable man Zanchus) judge their institution and office to be of the holy Ghost, 
Zanchus in confess.  as succeeding therein the Apostles. As for an Archbishop, he is a bishop of his several dioecesse, yet chief amongst many of a province, for better direction of matters of order, and for justice upon appellations, which being but an accident, maketh no several kind of office: therefore that addition to the Minor is untrue, whereof he is none, because in all those offices the greater includeth the less, and a bishop is both a successor of the Apostles, and also a pastor or minister: he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as S. Peter, although in order chief Apostle, yet a fellow elder in the lord. For teaching and feeding (to use Saint Hieromes words)  unus idémque sit paster ovium magister hominum: 
Ephes. 4.  one and the same man may be a pastor amongst his sheep, and a Doctor amongst men.  
Note the feature of this deformed argument.  
If God hath given all sense and intelligence to T.C. and the Demonstrator which are but two men: 
Absurdities of the Demonstrator, which he is lead unto by ignorance of All collective, and All distributive.  All the world beside are senseless and witless men.  
If the lord hath put the spirit of wisdom and cunning into Bezaleel and Aholiab: By this collection of the Demonstrator, all the rest after are unskilful and uncunning men.  
If God gave 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, omnem fidem, to his 12. Apostles, whereof Paul was none, being borne out of due time: Ergo, Paul the Apostle had no faith.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
That office is unlawful which none may lawfully bestow. 
Demonstration.   
But none may lawfully bestow the office of the Archbishop, because none can give new gifts to adorn it withal, Ergo, unlawful.  
To the Mayor.  
By this rule you may take exception to Moses, 
Remonstrance.  and to S. john Baptist, who took not their office from man, but from God. Your Mayor had been true, if the ground of it were Nemo sibi arroget honorem, unless he be called by God, or by the ordinance of man underneath God.  
To the Minor.  
This is not only unreasonable, but treasonable, because the Queen's majesty doth and aught to give and bestow the office of the Archbishop, unto which office no extraordinary, but ordinary gifts are belonging. None can bestow (saith the Demonstrator) the office of an Archbishop, because he can give no new gifts to garnish it withal: Ergo, according unto him, some may bestow the office of an Archbishop, who is able to give new gifts to adorn it withal. But I would gladly for my instruction learn, how they prove the contradictory Proposition unto this, viz. None can bestow an office of government in charge, unless he give new gifts to beautify it withal, or, that office which holy Synod and Parliament doth allow, none can bestow. As if the substance could not be without changeable Accidents and alterable qualities belonging unto it: 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  as if no man can bestow a new mantel, unless he give new buttons together with the mantel: or none can bestow a clokebag on the maker of these worthy Demonstrations, unless he give new strings to tie both ends withal. Thus I retort it upon them.  
That office which none may lawfully bestow, is unlawful.  
The office of their Pastors, Doctors, Elders and Deacons, none can lawfully bestow, because (as they reason) None can give new gifts to adorn them withal, more than they had afore their ordinations: Ergo, (by this their own position) all those are unlawful. If they answer, God hath bestowed gifts on these offices already, we reply that so he hath given to Apostles, and unto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 governments in the Church, Rom. 12. a matter wherein Bishops and Archbishops are especially bestowed: and yet (as I have showed afore) they must by their own collection pull their Elders and Deacons out of that rank, for they are not once mentioned where the gifts are said to be given. Eph. 4. but come clean after the dole.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
If the office of an Archbishop be lawful, 
Demonstration.  it is either in respect of his excellency above other men, or the place whereof he is above other places: But neither of these have ever been, or hereafter can be. ergo,  
You might have remembered the old rule, 
Remonstrance.  that from insufficient enumeration of the parts or of the causes, the argument doth not hold: or this fallacy is of the consequent, as saith Aristotle: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, when you mistake the cause. The lawfulness of his office is in regard of his superiority grounded on the word of God, and in respect of his authority, wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament.  
But I answer thus.  
If the office of the signory be lawful, it is either in respect of the excellency of the men, or of the most illustrious and celebrated place: not the first, for an Artisan elder is as good and substantial an elder, as any Earl or honourable man, and by their own platform he must sit cheek by jowl, by the noblest Earl or counsellor of the land. Neither the second, for no place is better or worse unto them, who seek for equality, Non locus virum, sed vir locum honestat: The place giveth not credit to the man, but the man to the place: ergo, the signory is not lawful in respect of the man or place, and consequently hath none authority or government.  
The 1. Allegation.  
Caluin, lib. 4. Institut. cap. 11. sect. 7. 
Demonstration.   
Beza in the book of divorcements speaketh against jurisdiction of bishops, and others substitute officers.  
If you allege new writers one for one, 
Remonstrance.  we have an Oliver for a Rowland: if you allege two, we can produce twice so many. Bullinger and Musculus, Hemingius, Gualther and Zanchus, etc. But our meaning is not to muster authorities, or recite the names of authors: Pauperis est number are pecus: Go rather to the things than names.  
Caluins' words are against the papists: jurisdictionem suam spiritualem iactant Romanenses: He alloweth in his institutions, patriarchs, Archbishops and bishops, in the primitive Church: Show any impiety in the offices of ours more than in those.  
Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes, that know more in such causes (any one of them) then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership: but if you allege the only fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them, we will set Ridley and jewel for bishops, as learned as these in all respects, and as godly.  
The 2. Allegation.  
Peter Martyr upon the 13. to the Romans, 
Demonstration.  speaketh against civil jurisdiction in Bishops, and by the same reason condemneth it in their substitutes.  
Peter Martyr speaketh not against any jurisdiction, 
Remonstrance.  which is a furtherance, but popish jurisdiction which is a hindrance to the Gospel. But whatsoever Peter Martyr saith, we say this to you: Bishops in respect they are bishops in England, have no civil jurisdiction: for the distinction of civil and ecclesiastical matters, is more priciselie and upon greater penalties here retained, then elsewhere in all Christendom. If it be said some matters they handle be civil, that are called ecclesiastical, we ask whether economical matters be not a part of civil, wherein they are as husbandly, nay niggardly as any: and further demand a rule out of God's word (of them that urge this as a sin) whereby to know a specifical difference between civil and Ecclesiastical causes. They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiastical courts here handle, be accounted elsewhere civil, therefore they may not be here Ecclesiastical: for of the contrary, some matters here mere civil, are elsewhere holden Ecclesiastical. As for example in Geneva and Scotland, they inflict censures on those which for civil enormous crimes the magistrate hath punished or pardoned, as felons, manslayers, & such like, and all their presbyteries (even that among the Englishmen at Middleborough) use to deal with qualifying of forfeitures of bonds and accounts between hard masters and their prentices, and other such Chancery matters: much more therefore those may justly be accounted ecclesiastical, which the law & civil magistrate do put over to ecclesiastical men, & better than those which being in truth mere civil, are intruded upon the presbyteries. Causes beneficial, viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers, causes matrimonial, diffamatory, with breach of charity, where none action lieth in civil Courts, punishment of sins not punishable by the civil Magistrate, and of reparations of churches & churchyards (which are all the heads of matters that bishops may handle, saving testamentary,) you will (I hope) allow to be Ecclesiastical. As for testamentary causes, even at the common law of this land, they have been always made Ecclesiastical, both because that law hath little direction in those causes (but such as is borrowed from the civil and Ecclesiastical laws) and for that men's last wills (at least were wont) do contain sundry demises for Churches, orphans, poor, captives, and such like good uses, whereof the Church had the fourth part, and wherein Bishops are intended to be most careful to minister right indifferently to all, for performance of the deads' will.  
Any jurisdiction civil, which Bishops, or some Ecclesiastical persons have, is not claimed by them as due to their functions, but imposed by the Prince, as upon subjects serviceable for the Realm, and for a credit to their places, as Counsellor, Ambassador, justice of the Peace, etc. For seeing they are subjects, freemen, and citizens of the Commonwealth, (besides their ministery of the Church) I would know whether they own not this duty, (being imposed on them,) unto the Commonwealth, and their Prince? But we shall not (I trust) need to persuade much with these men, for they are not so squeamish of civil honour and function, as they would then seem, whiles their malignant eyes are only fastened upon Bishops. For where they have sway, neither prince nor Magistrate shall proclaim feast or fast, treat of league, peace or war with any Prince, nor make any ordinance, without their advise: 
* The example of the reverend learned man.  they will have Deputies of the Churches in Parliament, when they have shut out Bishops, and they thrust their Elders and Ministers upon Kings, to sit with their other Counsellors, as was not long since practised. Is any matter most civil (even almost of least moment) determined at Geneva, without Beza? insomuch as when troubles increase, he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times? Is he not of the counsel of 60. in that state? was not Villiers Secretary of estate to the Prince of Orange? and further (if we may believe the Chaos, de Politia civili & ecclesiastica, 
Lib. 3.  which Law. Cham was so earnest to have printed at Leyden) ministers and persons Ecclesiastical (in that they are citizens) may, nay (in respect they are wise & learned) ought to be of counsel of Princes in affairs civil of the Commonwealth, and to give especial direction even in setting up and deposing of Princes, as he sayeth, being a Presbyterial man: and further, if there were nothing else, by as good reason may our Bishops meddle in civil jurisdiction, 
Retortion.  being Ecclesiastical men, as your profane Say elders intermeddle with Ecclesiastical jurisdiction, being civil men or Lay men.  
Is not this a good and lawful conversion?  
Some civil Magistrate lawfully is an Ecclesiastical person and governor, ergo, some Ecclesiastical person and governor lawfully is a civil Magistrate: or if some may be so, what prerogative for one is there more than for some other? But stay a while, the Demonstrator meaneth to skirmish with himself with ob. and so.  
The 1. Objection.  
Cyprian saith, 
Demonstration.  lib. 1. epist. 3. ad Cornelium. Neither have heresies and schisms risen of any other occasions then that the Priest of God is not obeyed, nor one Priest for the time, nor one judge in steed of Christ thought upon, etc.  
Answer.  
This place is alleged for the Pope, but it serveth for every Bishop.  
This place is elsewhere in Cyprian, making for the superiority of Bishops. 
Remonstrance with reply. Lib. 4. ep. 9  But this answer cutteth their own throat. If for every bishop, ergo, it serveth for the superiority of our bishops, which Cyprian in writing (being a bishop, and superior over others) would neither in himself, nor other bishops, of whom he also speaketh, condemn.  
The 2. Objection.  
The authority of the Archbishop preserveth unity. 
Demonstration.   
Answer.  
Cyprian li. 4. ep. 9 saith: unity is preserved by the agreement of Bishops, that is, Ministers.  
He speaketh of the unity of the Catholic Church. 
Remonstrance with reply. Lib. 1. ep. 3.   
Bishops with Cyprian are not ordinary Ministers: you may not take these in signification, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all one. But admit it were so, as it is not so in Cyprian, Doth this reason hold being the very like?  
Unity is preserved by concord and amity of burgesses, or commons of a Town, ergo, not by the Magistrate or peaceable Mayor of the Town? no more doth that, It is preserved by bishops, ergo, not by Archbishops.  
The 3. Objection.  
It compoundeth controversies that would grow to many heads. 
Demonstration.   
Answer.  
Cyprian saith, lib. 1. ep. 13. the company of Elders is the glue of mutual concord, 
Demon. citeth 13. ca 1. li. whereas there are but 12. editi. Basil.  that if any be author of heresy, the other should help.  
Cyprian useth in the former allegation, lib. 1. ep. 3. glutine sacerdotum. The Church is framed and made fast with the glue of priests. And also li. 3. ep. 13. Corpus sacerdotum concordiae mutuae glutine: the body of the priest. If the word were Elders, 
Remonstrance with reply.  the help of Elders, meaning the Priests, lieth not as a bar to exclude the helping hands of bishops, who are in degree higher than the priests, or of the Archbishop who is highest of them all: for if concord of minds make them to agree, superiority of order will withhold them from disagreeing.  
The 4. Objection.  
jerom upon Titus 1. saith: that in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest, 
Demonstration.  meaning a teaching Elder, were all one: but when one said, I am of Paul, I am of Apollo's, it was decreed, one should bear rule over all the rest.  
Answer.  
From the beginning it was not so. Tertullian contra.  
That is true whatsoever is first, etc. and Hierom ibidem saith, that this authority was by custom, and not by God's institution. If it had been the best way to take away divisions, the Apostles in whose time controversies did arise, would have taken the same order.  
This is called prevarication or collusion, 
Remonstrance with reply. Epist. ad evagr.  to oppose yourselves a little gentler, and make the objection weaker to fortify yourselves. He that will make a rod for himself, will make it of feathers. If you would have alleged out of Hierome the Epistle ad evagr. would have fitted your turn better, where S. Hierome saith: It was not only decreed, but decreed in all the world, that one of the priests being chosen, should be set over or above all the rest: this than you confess was so, but from the beginning it was not so. Our Saviour speaketh of matter of divorce. This text is bravely applied: and that of Tertullian, for matter of doctrine to a manner of discipline, is in the like sort applied.  
But to the point of the argument. Because S. Hierom is made to puritanize with you, and this allegation is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to kill us withal, not to withstand Hierome, but to understand Hierome, the best expounder of himself: we plainly grant, that Bishop and Priest were once for a short time all one, donec Ecclesia reciperet complementum, as Ambrose saith, till the church were brought to a perfection: so once there were no Deacons, which yet derogateth nothing from them. But yet not so all one, that by the institution of God they were to continue all one, and might not be changed; or that in the Apostles time, they were not forthwith changed, sith in the Apostles time, I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, was the occasion of the change, and that for rooting out of schism, and composing of strifes, as in sending from Antioch to jerusalem, was the very chief end and purpose of the change, and finally the decree of all the world for the ratifying of a standing superiority, was the approbation of the change, as Hierome thinketh, who being but a Priest or Minister himself, though there he laboureth to debase the Bishop, as much as he could, yet by the pregnant light is forced to confess such a decree, (though in truth it be not likely any such general decree was positively made) through all the word, otherwise then the imitation of such Churches (by a secret and universal consent) as the Apostles had planted, and such a decree we will grant.  
Me thinketh I hear one of you reason as strongly, thus.  
In the beginning Kings were Priests, 
Absurdity of the objection.  kingdom and priesthood were joined in one: ergo, Kings and Priests must so remain and continue all one.  
Or, in the beginning, such was their simplicity.  
Great Lords sons, jacob and his children kept their father's sheep: ergo, Noble men's children must keep their father's sheep: for in the beginning young shepherds and young princes were but all one. Or thus: In the beginning there were no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Elders: for the first mention of them is but in the 11. of the Acts, ergo, there never ought any Presbyteri, viz. Ministers, to have been ordained.  
The 5. Objection.  
Caluin saith, the Apostles had one amongst them to govern the rest.  
The Answer.  
That was for order to propound matters, to gather voices, as the speaker of the Parliament, not for Superiority.  
This answer would be better justified then with bare words: 
Remonstrance with reply.  Do the fathers or Caluin think, james was but chosen chief for one meeting, as they choose their Precedents? And we do not hold Caluin or any human authority affirmative, and therefore we rather defend it was for order & Superiority, both of dignity & office. Eusebius, whom Caluin citeth to this purpose, maketh james the son of Alpheus' Bishop of jerusalem and Bishop of the Apostles, because the Synod of the twelve Disciples and 72. Evangelists continued from Christ his ascension to the dispersion of the Apostles. It must needs be amongst the Apostles and other Pastoral Elders, not only a government for continuance of order, but also pre-eminence in the action. Act. 15.19. For there the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I judge or determine is used, whereupon after much disputation all rested, and the matter was concluded: for it is no prejudice to the equality of the Apostleship or ministery, a modest, orderly, and temperate authority. This is worth the whole, It was of order (say they) not of Superiority as the speaker in Parliament: as if all Superiority were opposite to good order: but as near as they can, they will borrow from the high Court of Parliament: Belike they mean one day to keep a Court of it. 
Retortion.  The Speaker doth not gather the voices, neither hath voice, but when all the house is even. The L. chancellor in the upper house asketh, the Clerk gathereth, but the L. chancellor remaineth the propounder so long as he is chancellor. And this their temporary presidency is for order (say they) nay it is for disorder, ordo est rationis. Aristotle in his physics: To choose one this day, another to morrow, and the third day choose a neewe, is a tumultuous order. Note this by the way: Their governor or precedent of order in every meeting is to propound matters, to gather voices viva voce, or by scrutiny: Ergo, some authority is left unto him, for he is to propound: Ergo, it is in his choice to gather or scatter, to silence, or propound, 
Ethicorum. 3.  eadem quae agere possumus & non agere, which is as much in value, as a Warden amongst his scholars with a negative voice, which is a great pre-eminence and Superiority.  
The 6. Objection.  
Paul was Superior to Timothy and Titus. 
Demonstrator.   
The Answer.  
Paul and they had diverse offices, Paul an Apostle, and they Evangelists over others.  
Let him show me a reason, 
Remonstrance with reply.  An Apostle being Superior to an Evangelist, and he to a Pastor, etc. why a Bishop may not be Superior to a Pastor succeeding the Apostles: for if vos autem non sic do take away all Superiority, than an Apostle and every Pastor is every way equal, & a Pastor but equal with their lay Elder and Deacon. As for Paul Doctor Gentium a Doctor of the Gentiles, he was their Superior, this is beyond all question: As for Titus and Timothy, if as you say they were Superiors as Evangelists, Ergo, every way Superior for Ecclesiastical order over ordinary Ministers.  
It is an Absurdity to say, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  he was Superior as an Evangelist, Ergo not Superior as a Bishop, sith he that desireth a Bishopric, praeclarum opus desiderat, desireth a good work. Paul saith, that Timothy worketh the work of the Lord even as he, 1. Cor. 16. But hence followeth not that he was an Apostle even as Paul was, no more than hereof, that he was an Evangelist. Or as well to make the holy Ghost say, Episcopatum eius accipiat alter, Let another take the Bishopric of judas, but let no man take the Apostleship of judas.  
The fallacy of this is the caption adidem, Our positive learning is better than your negative learning: they were Evangelists in some manner signification as Preachers, but no such Evangelists as a several office, Ephes. 4. as you imagine of them: for by their own authority they did not plant Churches but by commission and teaching of Saint Paul: The one Timothy being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prelate of the Ephesians, 
1. Thes. 5.12. 1. Tim. 3.14.  Ephesus Metropolitical city of Asia where after his abode which Saint Paul requested of him for to stay, no where you can find Saint Paul afterward to send for him, especially from the date of writing the Epistle: The other Titus being Archbishop of Crete (whether in that time or after times Crete were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iliad reporteth, having three or an hundredth cities) be it for ordaining or governing, the one & the other had Superiority of all the Pastors there. justin Martyr one of the next writers to the Apostles calleth Timothy 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 governor, or Prelate of the Church of Ephesus, which he could not call him if he had been chosen for one only meeting or action. This word in Plato 7. Epist. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Perfect of a city, & therefore all his Superiority was not so much of order as of greatness in authority: and the Church from time to time hath admitted the title of, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordained by imposition of hands first or chief Bishop, not so much for time as dignity, for he had to denounce and command, 1. Tim. 1.4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, with power denounce and command, with many other words in that Epistle importing his judicial authority and Superior dignity.  
The 3. Proposition of the Demonstrator.  
None may be ordained to an office in the Church until the place be void. 
Demonstrator.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
As was the twelfth place for Mathias, so is a certain place for every Church officer.  
But Mathias was not ordained to the place till judas had made it void by hanging himself. Ergo none is to be ordained before the place be void.  
Add unto this conclusion which you ought to do, 
Remonstrance.  by hanging himself, or by lot: Or when an Apostleship falleth, or when every twelfth place is void by such manner of Resignation, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  as hanging himself, or when Mathias cometh again to be chosen in judas place.  
This Argument leapeth from one predicament to another, from the predicament agere, to ubi. He ordained him to an office, Ergo to a place, and a certain place: as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world.  
The Mayor proposition is false: For Christ appointed the number of twelve such as had been conversant with him: so that there might of the Apostles be no less or more, albeit he had 72. Disciples beside that had been instructed by him, which were evangelists, but there is no set number of ordinary Ministers prescribed to any nation which it may not come short of nor exceed. In one Church of Antioch, Ast. 13. was there not sundry both Prophets and Doctors there named? yet no stinted number, for it is there noted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, as happily the Church then stood, and it stood very flourishing without any such Eldership as is since dreamt of.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
As it was in the planting of the Church, 
Demonstration.  so in the building it must be for ever: But they ordained neither Pastor nor Doctor, Deacon nor Elder, but to a place that had need, Ergo nor we until there be need.  
The Demonstrator concludeth in the third figure, 
Remonstrance.  and never a mood. The Minor is negative, contrary to all law of apt conclusion.  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is too general to be geneerally true: Prophecy, interpretation of tongues, gifts of healing, miracles were requisite in first planting of the Church, all which are not required in building of the Church. In salomon's time Infidels did help to set up the material Church which afterward were debarred to come in or profane the Church.  
To the Minor.  
How prove you the negative, uz. They ordained neither Pastor, etc. until they had need? Why there is always need. Messis multa operarij pauci: a great harvest, but few labourers. Yet this Donec might be well spared, until we have need of it: for they never made any when any place was void, excepting Mathias case which was a singular case. una hirundo non facit ver: one swallow maketh no summer, unless you mean of such an avoidance which is privatione praevia, where never any was before, and then it is true, but far estranged from your meaning. In vacuum venerunt, they made these officers where never any were before, and quae nullius sunt in bonis cedunt occupanti.  
To dismiss you without laughter due unto your folly, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  let all the world judge what a consequence this is.  
In the beginning & first planting of the Church they baptised in theriver, ergo we must christian our children in the river. The Churches were in private houses, ergo we must practise our religion in our private parlours.  
In the first they had community of goods 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. ergo, none may now possess in use aught that he hath: but as they brought and laid it down at the Apostles feet, even so we must lay down our substance at the doctors and pastors feet.  
As it was in the planting, so it must be in the building of the church for ever: But Apostles the first planters were called by Gods own immediate voice being men unlettered, to them were 72. evangelists adjoined and after prophets: ergo, the church must be built by these and such like for ever, and consequently they are not ceased as elsewhere you affirm.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
These things that are of one beginning, continuance, and ending, 
Demonstration.  cannot be one before and after another.  
But the minister and the execution of his ministry be relatives, ergo, a minister ought not to be ordained, before there be a ministery whereunto he is allotted.  
To the Mayor.  
Albeit in this paralogism are 4. termini, 
Remonstrance.  because he concludeth the ministery of a certain person, instead of the ministery of a certain place: yet my answer is, Those things &c. cannot be but one before and after another, that is, idem subiecto, one and the same in subject, which is a contradiction to itself, that one thing is one and the same, and yet one and the same is prius & posterius seipso, before and after itself.  
To the Minor.  
But they are relatives saith the demonstrator: say I, not proper, but improper, viz. a minister and his ministery to a determinate place: for a minister (if you will make a reference) is a minister of a ministery be it gospel or law, his ministery is not precisely tied to a certain place, although his care must be to do good at once in one place, his readiness to do good, and that in every place. God chose his Apostles, whom after his ascension he sent into all places: They who convert infidels, are not sure of entertainment. This argument proceedeth not but retroceedeth against themselves.  
Those new fangled runners before they are sent, 
Retortion.  have no ordination or designment to a certain place, ergo, their ministery is a nullity and without lawful calling according to themselves, in whatsoever place, as if they will they shall hear in particular: for none more factious than those who have no set places but intrude upon others, and win credit of zeal by novelties and defacing of the ministers of the place.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
If none ought to be called a shepherd that hath no flock of sheep to keep, 
Demonstration.  nor watchman which is not allotted to a place to watch: then none may be ordained to any office before the place be void: the 1. is true, Ergo, the second.  
I deny the antecedent and sequel of the same: 
Remonstrance.  for a man may be called a shepherd and have never a flock of sheep of his own or others to keep: as many poor men who are expert in the knowledge and are not worth a sheep, or as jacob he and his fathers were shepherds, & accounted themselves so in the presence of Pharaoh, for that was their trade. Or a man may be called a captain, if he have instruction of military discipline, though he do not ever lead a band of soldiers: denomination is rather of the habit then of the act. If a shoemaker have sold all his shoes, or a grazier all his cattle, belike their trades and names are clean gone. Now farther to say, that none may be called to the promotion of a shepherd, unless forthwith some man deliver him a flock of certain sheep, it is a pretty imagination, as if he could be his craftsmaster before his craftsman.  
But to the sequel of the Antecedent, this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to argue he cannot be made a shepherd before a place be void, Ergo, he cannot be made a minister before the place be void. This is easily avoided: For no man is so made a minister for a particular parish or small precinct of place, as that his ministery were gone, if the parish were dispeopled and the houses burnt up, but he is made a minister for the church of England wheresoever his service shall be required in the province or place. This is an old stoppegamball.  
No more coats than backs to wear them.  
No more ministers than places to dispose them.  
The ministery shallbe like to a drawebridge: keep them sure enough that are within, keep them secure enough from dealing in the ministery, who albeit of their pure zeal (as many with us which would preach the gospel,) because of lack of room, shallbe feign to stand without.  
The first therefore is false, and semblably the second.  
How doth the old rule hold now?  
One shepherd must have one flock by their delineation, or many shepherds may not have one flock for fear of thronging or intrusion: which otherwhiles they admit of the puritan transformation: unum ad unum est aptissimum, one is fittest for one: It is in very deed the best referencie: for one thing secundùm idem cannot have sundry relation.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
To do contrary to the precept and practice of the apostles is unlawful. 
Demonstration.  To ordain an officer without a certain place is contrary: Ergo, unlawful. Titus. 1.5. acts. 14.23.  
To the Mayor.  
To do contrary to the precepts and practice of the apostles is not ever unlawful as Act. 15.29. 
Remonstrance.  v. is commanded Abstain from blood and strangled: yet it is now lawful to eat blood, or strangled: therefore this universal mayor is false.  
To the Minor.  
To ordain an officer without a place, or to ordain many officers in readiness to do office and service to the whole church, is not contrary to the practice or commandment of the apostles in any of those places, but rather justifiable out of the place, Act. 14.23. Paul and Barnabas returned to Lystra, and Iconium, and Antioch: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, ordained unto them or for them pastoral elders in every church, and commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed. They ordained pastoral elders in every church, or in the church: how followeth it hereof, that they did not or might not ordain some over and above for the provision of the whole church? likewise out of the place, Tit. 1.5. v. It is an impossible collection: 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  for this were handsome reasoning: I have left thee to make pastoral elders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in every city, Ergo, make no elder nor ministers for the country: or I have left thee to make elders for every city: Ergo, make just no more elders than there be cities. Sometimes these fellows would gather by the plural number their lay elders from hence: They hold it policy of their church to make more Bishops than one, 
Rotortion.  where the maintenance will stretch for one town or city, and why may not our universities and cathedral churches being colleges of the prophets, keep within them as they do, and foster with their maintenance, many ministers and pastoral elders to furnish town and country?  
The 6. allegation of the Demonstrator. 
Demonst. Conc. Chalced. Can. 6. Artic. 15   
It was ordained that neither deacon nor elder nor other should be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is loosely, but in a church, city, or town.  
The words are Neminem absolutè, 
Remonstrance.  id est, sine titulo: the exception is, nisi in ecclesia suae civitatis sive possessionis, aut in martyrio aut in monasterio: There are exceptions enough to authorize any ordination in our church, sith many are ordained for our colleges and cathedral churches etc. Great odds between absolutè et dissolutè, which is to be let run at random, 
Demonstration. Conc. Vrban. Test. Gra. c. tuum distinct. 70.  as most of you are persons of no church and vicar's of the same.  
The 7. allegation of the Demonstrator.  
The ordination that is made without a title, let it be void.  
This is marvel you will borrow out of Gratian, or out of the Canon law, 
Remonstrance.  draw clear demonstration from puddle water, unto which you often compare the Canon law: I perceive every place you can make must serve your turns, yea puddle wharf.  
Your answer was before with the exceptions afore remembered. Besides, a title is not always a charge or flock: but an assignation of set maintenance, lest they should beg cum dedecore clericalis ordinis, as the Canons speak.  
The 8. allegation of the Demonstrator.  
Hieronymus ad Nepotianum complained that ministers were ordained being chosen by no church, 
Demonstration.  and so went here and there having no place.  
There is no such matter to be found in S. Hierom as is here alleged: 
Remonstrance.  but if Hierom had complained, belike he did not complain without a lawful cause: It is pity and shame they should wander up and down: but this would have argued, that absolute ordinations were then used: yet we grant the Canons (saving in some cases) do forbid them as inconvenient, and so this church practiseth if the laws be followed: if not, the men are blamable, not the laws.  
The 9 Allegation of the Demonstrator.  
That action which is read to be practised never but by Idolaters, is unlawful: 
Demonstrator.  To have wandering officers is so, judg. 17.8. Ergo unlawful.  
This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fight with a shadow, 
Remonstrance.  or to wander from the purpose: More is in the conclusion of the Syllogism then in the premises.  
The question was of allotting Ministers to a place: the conclusion is of a wandering apostasy or forsaking his ordination and his place. If there be any like Micah for entertaining such, or like the wandering Levite that did go from Bethlehem juda, from the better to the worse, and go to dwell (as it is in that text) where he may find a place: yourselves are such hosts and such guests, rather than we. For many amongst you are wandering stars and wayfaring mates, a life chosen by yourselves, not imposed.  
The Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Paul and Barnabas did wander. Ergo. 
Demonstrator.   
Answer.  
The Apostles office and the Evangelists was to preach the word and to plant Churches: But the order that they left is a precedent for us, that every Church should have their proper officers, and that there be no other else where to be found.  
Bray a fool in a mortar, he will not leave his folly, 
Remonstrance with reply.  no more will this man his babble, nor babbling objections: Paul and Barnabas did not wander (as in our behalf you would seem to object) but for the watering and planting of the Churches passed to and fro, as any may do that have care of many Congregations to visit them, or as Saint Paul who confessed solus ego, I only have care of all Congregations: this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or incoherent, or a precedent never to be found. Every Church must have proper officers, Ergo, there are no other, nor aught to be else where any other found. Once again, how prove those men a negative? This is to stop the increase of God's divine grace: This is fine in conceit, Your governing Elders must be numerus infininitus, or indefinitus, Ergo, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  our Pastoral Elders must be numerus finitus, a certain number: Why not sans number of those who to Godward are professed?   

The third Chapter.  
The Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
EVery Church officer ought to execute his office, 
Demonstrator.  and be continually resident on his charge.  
The Demonstrator is too too peremptory: 
Remonstrance.  because he comprehendeth neither natural nor legal, nor other dispensation by the word continually. But let us hear the Demonstration.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
A Shepherd hath a flock continually to feed it.  
The Minister is a Shepherd and his charge a flock, 
Demonstration.  Ergo he ought continually to feed it, and be resident upon it.  
What? continually feed? neither he is able to do it, nor they to hear and digest it: Quod caret alterna requie, etc. What? never to the term, or Parliament, though neither their Synod be called, nor they sent for? Never bring their wives to Sturbridge fair, nor to the Act at Oxford, nor to lie a dozen weeks or such a trifle at a friends house? nor to ride half a summer from country to country to confirm the brotherhood? What, not once in a fortnight to go down by boat to London to learn news, to confer, and to buy some discipline papers? These be strong Demonstrations when the first is grounded on a metaphor.  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is false, whether ye understand it properly or in allegorical meaning of a shepherd, 1. Sam. 17.20, 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, David left his father's sheep with a keeper, and ran into the camp: or as he is charged by his brother Eliab to leave his few sheep in the wilderness, and of a pride and malice of his heart to come into the battle.  
To the Minor.  
This is true, but metaphorically true, as Princes are also Shepherds, both in divine and profane writings 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iliad: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 1. Reg. 22.17. all Israel scattered as sheep upon the mountains, that had no Shepherd, that is, no King: Esai. 44.28. Cyrus' my Pastor or Shepheard.  
This is drawn into a goodly consequence.  
A Shepherd must feed, Ergo, he may depute no man in his absence to feed.  
Or, Princes being Shepherds may have their Deputies and Lieutenants: Ergo, ministering Shepherds may not be allowed in their absence under Shepherds.  
They that reason thus, En quò discordia cives? See how far madness and malice carrieth man?  
The 2. Demonstration.  
Where God hath placed a man, there his travail is needful: 
Demonstration.  But God hath placed every Minister over the charge. Ergo.  
This fallacy and all the other following to prove this assertion, 
Remonstrance.  proceed ex ignoratione elenchi: or as Aristotle speaketh, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  

1 When a man hath not a discreet eye to see what is one & the same.  
2 What is diverse from one and the same.  
3 What is different at divers times.  
4 What in divers respects.   
The Mayor is false: that where God hath placed a man, there his travail is only, at all times, in all respects requisite, and in no other places requisite or needful. A man's travail is there most requisite sometimes, whither the Spirit of God biddeth him come, as to S. Paul, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Come and help us in Macedonia. Themselves both upon cause of preaching in other Cures, and for no causes, are contrary to this position in their practice.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
Flocks that are in danger must be watched night and day, Luke 2.8. 
Demonstration.   
Every Congregation is a flock in danger: 1. Pet. 5.8. Matt. 13.23. Ergo the Minister must watch night and day.  
To the Mayor.  
So great is the discordance between your Mayor and Minor, 
Remonstrance.  as the difference is between sheep and men: but I answer thus, If you mean one man may watch night and day without ceasing or intermission, he must have Argos eyes.  
Centum fronte oculos, centum ceruice gerebat.  
Argus, That whiles some wake others may fall a sleep. As for the watch of the Shepherds, Luke 2.8. it was in the night: of a convenience therefore their fellows did watch in the day. If you will deal so strictly to make no difference or partition between the night and the day, Saint Luke maketh it for you, that the Shepherds watched in the night.  
If you will make aught good out of the place, it is thus: Those Shepherds did watch their flock only (for any thing there mentioned) in the night season, Ergo, Ministers must watch their flock only in the night: nay, in and out of season must Ministers watch their flock, yet no man's labour and watch can be infinite beyond the measure of human ability. As for the watchfulness of the Minister, it is in forewarning them of danger, albeit he can not always preserve them from the danger: Howbeit be the danger never so great, God's power is made perfit in our infirmity, we shall be able to save some out of the fire and temptation of the devil.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
If his duty requireth so much travail, 
Demonstration.  as may continually set him on work, then may he not be non Resident: But the former is true, Ergo the later.  
I deny the Sequel of the Antecedent: 
Remonstrance.  That therefore at no time, upon no cause, upon no commandment of his Superior, for no embassage abroad, for no attendance upon the Prince at home, for no prosecution of Law to keep his right, for no repulsing of injury to recover his right, for no service of the Church, for no pacification of schism, nor consultation about matters of the Church, finally for no remedy and restitution of health, he may have a coadjutor or Substitute underneath him, or be non Resident from his Pastoral charge. The Puritans confess a man may be absent from his charge, which they can not deny: for both by their running up and down, that they practise at our Parliaments time, as also by those necessary assemblies in their new Synods they allow, Ergo, simply and absolutely to be non Resident is not unlawful, but when it is without just cause. I pray you who did dispense with Fen and Knewstubs for their absence from their Cures, whom I saw in the low countries? Except half a years absence or more be residence: You must allow as large measure to others as to your own pewfellows.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
If the Ministers cannot faithfully apply themselves to the capacity of the people, 
Demonstration.  but by knowledge of their disposition: Then is none Residency unlawful: But the former is true, Ergo, the later.  
I deny the sequel of the Antecedent as before: 
Remonstrance.  for they may know their disposition, without being chained in perpetual prison to them: and non residency is not absolutely against the law of God or directly: for if it were simply impious, then for none occasion, no not for an hour might a man be away, (no more than he may for an hours space in his whole life use blasphemy against God,) but by event and by the way of consequence: quatenus so far forth as they who are the people of God, are destitute of spiritual food: which I hope in our congregations seldom falleth out by any such event. It is thought now a days, multum scientiae parum conscientiae, too much knowledge or science, in respect of so little conscience.  
Albeit no man ever as yet defended an absolute estranging of the pastors from the charge: yet the teacher being occasionly absent, may apply himself fructfully both elsewhere, and to them also by other directions: even as S. Paul himself by letters and epistles, when he heard but by hearsay contentions were risen amongst them, he suppressed the contentions.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
If the ministers of the gospel be as narrowly tied to their charges as the priests of the law, than they may not be non resident, 
Demonstration.  for they were always ready in the temple to answer doubts. 1. Sam. 19 But etc. Ergo,  
Eodem modo opponenti eodem modo respondendum est: 
Remonstrance.  For him that hath but one manner play one manner of defence is good enough: This argument of Type and proportion is sure to be one: An impudent man will never be answered. I answer as before: God's law and nature dispense with non residence in diverse cases, although the one and the other be narrowly tied to the ministery, under the gospel and the law.  
To the Prosyllogisme.  
For they were always ready etc. Here is a good Illative 1. Sam. 9 Ely the priest sat upon a stool by one of the posts of the temple of the Lord: ergo, what? Ergo, Ely was tied to residency in the temple, all exigency of business whatsoever laid apart, as it were unto a post. Or as well thus: Ely the priest in the temple sat upon a stool: Ergo, a man may say to one of you for making this wise argument: Accipe stultum et sede, take a stool, and be resident continually upon it. Why man, they did not lie in the temple, but had their several habitations: and they waited in course, as appeareth in the story of Zacharie in S. Luke.  
The 7. Demonstration.  
If the minister must be an example, 
Demonstration.  than he must be present, but the first is true, Ergo, the second.  
By these & like arguments, 
Remonstrance.  the ministers must be pinned upon the people's sleeve: as for the place alleged 1. tim. 4.12. Timothy was an example 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as well absent as present. It is the image of the virtue, not so much the corporal presence that serveth for imitation. Hath not Christ left us an example of himself because he is not corporally present?  
The 8. Demonstration.  
He whom the people must know by the voice, 
Demonstration.  and follow in and out, must be continually resident: But the first is true. joh. 10.4. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
Upon this phrase of speech continual residence, 
Remonstrance.  I distinguish. There is continual in time, and there is a residence to be continued for the discharge of the duty of the cure: A man may be a resiant and do no office & service but bodily reside upon the cure, as many of those unlettered reformitans, velut incubus & succubus lie upon and under the cure, as a burden and under a burden.  
To the Minor.  
As for the place of john, it is meant of Christ who is the high shepherd and Bishop of the church, unto whose perfection we must draw ourselves near.  
The 9 Demonstration.  
None can be ready to feed his flock that is absent: 
Demonstration.  Every minister must be ready to feed his flock. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
This silly argument is answered before, being all one with the 1. 
Remonstrance.  Demonstration of this 3. cap.  
His readiness may be per se aut vicaria fide. By himself or his sufficient deputy.  
The Demonstrator is like to Anaxagoras: Anaxagoras vocem suam ignoravit: forgetteth his own word and voice. In stead of urging continual residence here is nothing else but continual Tautology.  
The 10. Demonstration.  
He that must take heed to his flock must be resident continually. 
Demonstration.   
Every minister must to so. Act. 20.28. ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
The mayor is true leaving out the word continually and with the former limitations. 
Remonstrance.   
The minor out of the acts 20. must be understood for attendance on the flock with the due exceptions: if his employment may be there with most convenience of doing good, be it over a whole province or in a particular church: for else how durst S. Paul have at that time sent for them out of their cures, and if it had been but for an hour?  
The 11. Demonstration.  
If Satan be the cause of non residence, than it is utterly unlawful: 
Demonstration.  But Satan is the cause, 1. Thes. 2.17, 18. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
Although Satan etc. yet it is not utterly unlawful: 
Remonstrance.  for albeit Satan may be cause of retchlessness and carelessness in some, Satan is not cause of non residence in all.  
This mayor seemeth to import this.  
Whatsoever Satan is the cause of, is utterly unlawful:  
To give an instance: Satan was the cause of Christ's setting upon a pinnacle of the temple: ergo Christ standing upon a pinnacle of the temple is utterly unlawful by this plausible mayor.  
Satan is the cause of persecution and chains: yet to suffer persecution and chains is not unrighteous and unlawful.  
To the Minor.  
Satan out of that. 1. thes. 1.17.18. v. is the cause of non residency, 
Demonstrator maketh S. Paul writ false divinity.  saith the demonstrator. These jolly gentlemen make. S. Paul writ good divinity. Satan hindered me, that is, caused me to do an ungodly and unlawful thing, viz. to be a non resident, nay rather understand S. Paul thus: Satan raised persecution against me: or sometimes Satan causeth persecution, persecution fear, fear feebleness of faith and timorousness of conscience, that same in weak brethren causeth love of the present world, & consequently a final & utter discontinuance, which you may rather say to be the cause of dissolute non residence, which God forbidden you should rightly deem to have been in S. Paul.  
The 12. Demonstration.  
That which abridgeth the love of God to his people, 
Demonstration.  and comfort to his minister, that is unlawful: but non residence etc. Ergo.  
This & the next demostrations are far fetched & worth nothing. 
Remonstrance.   
To the Minor.  
Answer is: non residence or absence for a time in some regard for the greater good of other congregations, doth rather procure the favour of God and consolation of the whole estate of Christ's church: And therefore a false minor.  
The 13. Demonstration.  
That which hindereth love between the minister and the people, 
Demonstration.  that is unlawful: But non residence etc. Ergo,  
What an easy way of demonstration hath the demonstrator attained unto? 
Remonstrance.   
To the Mayor.  
The mayor is not precisely true: for to reprove the people of their faults and to rebuke them sharply maketh less love between some people and the minister, which nevertheless is a thing most lawful: Non residency amongst some of your sectaries would be a cause of more love and charity amongst god's people, some amongst you being firebrands of sedition: and therefore better is your room then company.  
To the Minor.  
All absence with deputation of an able minister effecteth neither so nor so.  
The 14. Demonstration.  
To be absent from those who have need of us, 
Demonstration.  is unlawful.  
But the congregation hath need of us, Ergo, unlawful.  
Syllogizari non est exparticulari. 
Remonstrance.   
To be absent from one man or one particular congregation is not unlawful, his employment being otherwise beneficial. I might reason as well thus: 
Absurdity of the demonstrator.   
To be absent from those who have need of us is unlawful.  
The church of Ephesus had need of Timothy, the church of Galathians and Corinthians need of Paul: Ergo, Paul's and Timothy's absence were both unlawful. Or after this wise.  
To be absent from those that have need of us is unlawful.  
The Paynims and heathen in America & terra australi where no church is, have need of us, Ergo, our absence is utterly unlawful. This fallation is secundum quid ad simpliciter.  
The 15. Demonstration. 
Demonstration.   
If the priests might not dwell far from the temple, than the ministers may not be non Resident. But the first is true. 1. Chron. 28. ca 13. v. ergo, the second.  
I may argue as substantially and as well. 
Remonstrance.   
If the Exchequer men must of conveniency dwell near to Westminster hall, and the singing men of Paul's near there about: ergo, they must never go out of the place.  
The place which you allege, is. David gave to Solomon a pattern of the courts of the house of God, and for all the chambers round about, which serve for the treasures of the house of God, and for the treasures of the dedicate things, and for the courses of the Priests and Levites. Now the later may expound the former: ergo, the Priests and Levites waited in their courses. It proveth not an indefatigable or continual hourly attendance. You deal hardly to make them de genere affixorum, or to nail them to a place.  
The 16. Demonstration or Allegation.  
Let no Clerk be placed in two charges, for it is filthy merchandise, 
Demonstra. Concil. Nic. c. 15.  etc. No man can serve two Masters, Let every one tarry in the place where he is called.  
The old proverb is now verified, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Remonstrance.  Like egg like bird, like master like man. T.C. the master misalledged the Council, and so doth V. D. his yeoman. See the 247. pag. of the Defense of the answer to the Admonition.  
These men to evict their purpose, will not refuse omne genus testium, etiam ab inferis, viz. the most blasphemous, corrupt and depraved, the 2. Council of Nice, which to blear men's eyes withal, they call simply the Council of Nice. Out of this Council they may prove adoration of relics, invocation of saints, worshipping of images with the same worship that the Trinity is worshipped, if they will take farther serious counsel in the cause. I may say of them, as Seneca said of a wanton Poet, Non ignoravit sed amavit sua vitia, they cannot be ignorant, but they love their own faults and errors. Let no man, etc. in the end of the canon in Regia civitate, be placed in more great cities then one. In other towneships and villages it is lawful, and so Gratian expoundeth, Caus. 20. quaest. 1. Clericus, and the Council of Chalcedon, and the gloze. A man may be entitled to two Churches, if they be poor and with dispensation, or by way of trust or Commendam. As for allegation, 6. Matth. No man can serve two masters, that is, contrary Masters, God and Beliall, God and Mammon. For the other place, 1. Cor. 7. Let a man tarry in his vocation, that is, his kind of vocation, not in the local place. These fallacies are fallacies figurae dictionis. This therefore must be the meaning of the place: Let no man, etc. without ability to discharge them both, be placed in two charges, or let no man make a filthy lucre of his charge.  
The 17. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstration.   
Damasus compareth them that set over their charges, to harlots that put out their children, 
Concil. come. 2.  etc. to nurse, to give themselves to more pleasure.  
This man heard T. C. say it was in the second Tome of Counsels, 
Remonstrance.  which is in the first. See what it is to take every thing by hearsay. Damasus in his epistle, speaketh against Chorepiscopi, which occupied the place of their bishoprics, & some part of their office, as consecration of Priests, Deacons, and Virgins, imposition of hands, dedication of Churches, who were both insolent themselves, and made others their bishops live in pleasure and idleness. This concerneth nothing honest, learned, and sufficient Curates.  
If you think your own wife, or any other (only for putting out their children) within the compass of an harlot, you are within the compass of a jealous headed fool. It were more reasonable to judge her so, if she were with child before you married her.  
The 18. Allegation or Demonstration.  
It was ordained that none, 
Demonstra.  either Bishop or Elders, should go from City to City. 
Theodor. l. 1. c. 9   
The place is in the Ecclesiastical history of Theodoret, 
Remonstrance.  albeit you quote it not. Theodoret speaketh of Eusebius Nicomediensis, an Arrian, who leaving Nicomedia, Ad sedem Constantinopolitani Episcopatus per ambitum arrepsit, idque contra Ecclesiae canonem, qui vetat tum Episcopos, tum Presbyteros de unius civitatis sede, ad alterius sedem transfer, who translated himself by suit and ambition from one Church to another, for as it is in the same Theodoret: Cùm ei Beryensis Ecclesiae administratio concredita esset, inde ad Nicomediae Episcopatum gerendum se transtulit, where he was Governor of the Church of Beria, he translated himself to Nicomedia, and from the bishopric thereof to Constantinople, leaping from Church to Church by suit after the promotion, and contrary to the Canon of the Church, which forbiddeth ambition and suit both unto Priests and Bishops, and translation from one See to another of their own heads, without a cause allowed by their Superiors, according to the several orders of every Church.  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Two parishes may be united: ergo, one may have charge of them, 
Demonstrator.  when they are two, or divided.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
One shepherd may keep one flock being great, but not two flocks being little, going in diverse pastures.  
That is falsely answered: 
Remonstrance with reply.  for jacob in the 30. Genes. kept Laban's and his own flock of sheep, and put them in diverse pastures. As for the objection, when they are divided, his pains are the greater: he must repair to them but in the union, (whatsoever is the distance) they must repair to him, except it be otherwise especially provided.  
The 2. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Parishes were divided by men, by the Monk Denys Pope of Rome. 
Demonstration.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
That is untrue: for the Apostles in the Acts divided the Churches into Congregations.  
Nay that is more untrue. This is as the Schoolmen speak, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Remonstrance with reply.  a very barbarism or nugation: for it followeth, that they divided Churches into Churches, for the Church always is a Congregation. You might have quoted, if you had a quote, where the Apostles by constitution did divide national Churches into Dioceses, or Dioceses into Parishes. The Council of Nice in very deed appointed to bishops certain of them their bounds and limits of jurisdiction, though sundry bishoprics were appointed before. In which division, the division of the civil state of Rome into Provinces, Dioceses, Prefectures, 
De Rep. Rom.  etc. was for the most part followed, as Lazius testifieth.   

The fourth Chapter.  
Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
IT belongeth to the Church to elect the Officers which Christ would have placed, 
Demonstration.  and not to the Patrons, etc. Therefore that which is practised in the Church of England, must return to Antichrist.  
The practice of this Church is neither of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Remonstrance.  false Christ, nor of Antichrist, but drawn from the purest times of the Primitive Church. For neither in the Apostles times, nor any times after (that I can read of) is there pregnant proof to be found, that for the choice and ordination presbyteri alicuius, of any priest or pastoral elder only (for there were no Lay elder heard of) any more than one bishop was required. In deed when a bishop was to be chosen, it is often to be found in the Primitive Church, that the priests or pastoral elders which for most part then lived in the great cities, where bishops Sees were planted, (though according as the bishops thought good they were sent out into the territory a djoining, to preach, baptise, and minister the supper) being with the people assembled, and often with the Metropolitan, and some other bishop's direction, did nominate whom they thought good to have chosen for their bishop, whom if the people liked, they would cry, Dignus est, justus est, he is well worthy, he is a just man. If they liked him not who was named, they would with great clamours, yea often times with outrages of blows and murder, importune them to another nomination. So that there was no scrutiny of suffrages of the people, as having interest, but a tumultuary proceeding, and acclamation or exclamation of the multitude present at such actions. Therefore the old Canons speaking hereof, do use for the most part, but the words Testimonij civium, & conscientiae populi, of testimony of Citizens, and knowledge of the people, with which these elections of bishops only were made: but because they breed great tumults, sedition, and murders (as the ancient Fathers, and histories of the Church testify) they were abrogated both by counsel and appointment of Christian Emperors (upon whom by law the people in all matters had bestowed their whole right) since which time the priests of several Sees in the name of the rest (which we call now the Chapters of Cathedral Churches) have had the election of their bishops, being (if the Emperor or prince thought good) directed to some one special man by his nomination.  
In England according to the ancient common law of the land, the prince granteth leave to the Chapter to elect a bishop to the void See, which licence is called Congee d'eslire, and withal sendeth letters to them, nominating him whom her majesty upon grave advise of her honourable counsel, judgeth fit, requiring their choice of him. The election being made, she giveth her royal assent unto it, requiring the Archbishop to confirm the election if it be duly & canonically made, & after with two other bishops, to consecrate the elect: the day and place for confirmation whereof, is published a competent time afore, that if any think good to propound against the person of the man or form of election, they may be heard. After this confirmation, followeth the consecration according to the prescription of the book: then is the bishop to do his homage personally to her majesty for his temporal revenues, and after to have them restored unto him. Now to the temporalties of a bishopric, a Baronrie by law is annexed, whereby he is a lord of the parliament.  
Other ministers in the dioecesse are to be examined, approved and ordained by the bishop, he and such other ministers as be present at the ordination, laying their hands upon them. And when any is presented to a set place or benefice by the patron thereof, the bishop is to examine his life and learning, and to institute him in title thereunto after he have approved of him. This course of placing in the title of certain rooms or benefices grew by these degrees and means, which will not be amiss also to point at, because many that will needs be meddling, either know it not, or are wilfully ignorant.  
At first (as was showed afore) the bishop and all his clergy lived in a kind of community in the city, whereof he bore the name of bishop, he and they going abroad at certain most convenient times to preach and minister the Sacraments in the territory adjoining: at what time all Church revenues of the whole dioecesse, whether lands, tithes, oblations or legacies, were in common amongst them, but at the distribution of the bishop. One fourth part whereof was employed pro mensa episcopali, for the B. hospitality: another to maintain those of the Clergy: the third, for building and repairing the churches of the city, & rest of the dioecesse: the fourth, for redemption of captives, for the poor & for other godly uses.  
But when sundry persons, partly upon devotion, and partly the rather induced to have the nominating of a Minister thereto, had built and endued divers Churches in places far distant in the country abroad, so that so many several parishes could not conveniently nor so often be respected by those who attended always about the Bishop (saving at certain set times) and that the former community began through multitude of the clergy (being for the most part in one place) and sundry other inconveniences to be over-troublesome and also envious: then in most parts of the christian world, they grew to a division of all the church revenues, so that the bishop, the clergy that was to remain in the cathedral church of the chief city, and the clergy of the rest of the dioecesse, had every of them their several portions allotted, as was thought expedient. Out of which, every of them severally besides their own maintenance, was afterward to defray for the reparation of the fabrikes that were to be upholden by them, & to relieve the poor, etc. as their several abilities should serve. In so much as the bishop, who first was as a common past our of the whole dioeces, as the common law also at this day doth account him, and had afore (towards the uses aforesaid) the common revenues of the Church in title as a kind of proprietary himself, did then at the presentation of the founders or Patrons, to whom the Canons gave that pre-eminence (in regard of their cost bestowed) call other ministers in partem sollicitudinis, into a part of the charge, and by institution of them unto several churches and the revenues thereof, did as it were invest them to the title of that part of Glebe, tithes, etc. which was accounted as his own afore, but unto the said uses, which course now hath continued many hundred years down unto these times.  
It resteth to consider what the Demonstrator can prove therein to be impious, and to be returned again to Antichrist, as proceeding from him being Antichristian.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
The constant practice of the Apostles Church must be followed. 1. Tim. 6.14. 
Demonstration.   
The constant practice of the Church was to choose her officers: Ergo, It belongeth to the Church to choose her officers. Act. 1.6. Act. 6.5. Act. 14 25.  
Here be quatuor termini: for in stead of must be followed, is put belongeth to the Church: which is the conclusion, 
Remonstrance.  but is in neither of the premises: and besides the Mayor speaketh of the Church, which is the Apostles, and therefore a Paralogism. Besides it is untrue, for their constant practice was to abstain from blood and strangled, to celebrate the supper at night, to prophecy in course so many as thought good, not to wear any thing at all on their heads at prayer, and to speak strange languages in the congregation, 1. Cor. 14. which need not be followed of us.  
To the Minor.  
I deny the constant practice of the Apostles to have been, or to be proved out of those places in the Acts. Mathias was immediately chosen by God unto the Apostleship by casting lots: ergo, by no free election of the people. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, they did propound or nominate, is not necessarily to be referred to all then assembled, viz. 120. but rather to the 11. Apostles there particularly reckoned and named: Otherwise we should say that the apostles wives, and Mary the mother of jesus had an interest also in this nomination and propounding, which our discipliners will not in their own platform admit: but whosoever propounded those two men, sure it is, they which propounded them, did not elect them, for they were referred to Gods own election by lot: Show which of them thou hast chosen. If this example must always be followed, than the Church shall only and always have the nomination of two to be chosen, but shall have none election, which nevertheless is the thing shot at. Then also shall there need no fasting nor any ordination by imposition of hands, for neither of these was here used. If they say something herein was ordinary, something extraordinary, why do they then by this place urge a constant practice of the church? and let them prove also by scripture how much is ordinary, how much extraordinary not to be pursued by us. But let us see also what constant practice agreeing with the other two places, or with your own usage, you can find in the election of the 7. chosen, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that were to serve table. 
Acts. 6   
They were such as the Lord gave none express commandment to be ordained, but grew by a collateral occasion, viz. the grudge of the Greeks' against the Hebrews, and the toil which the Apostles through the number of believers were drawn into ministering alone to all the holy supper at their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Love-feasts. They were but 7. chosen for the Church at jerusalem upon that special occasion, & to serve tables at the Love-feasts. The course of circumstances in which feasts is ceased, & therefore this choice is an unfit rule to exact all elections of church officers unto. Because these seven called commonly Deacons were chosen, must ministers of the word needs jump just with them? Must all officers needs have all circumstances in their elections alike? What Logic is this thus to reason à disparatis adidem? The 12. Apostles in this action called the disciples together, propounded & persuaded the matter, told them the number & qualities of those men to be chosen, but for avoiding suspicion of partiality, & appeasing the mutiny, permitted the whole election to the number of the disciples. And shall we therefore in all elections give to the wisest & learnedst BB. and other ministers of the Church, no further direction, sway or interest, but permit all elections & the manner of them to the rest of the Church? why this our platformers themselves will not like. For their presbyteries have the entire nomination and election of all, and the people must allow of their choice, if a cause sufficient be notalleaged, though all else were against it. Of the sufficiency of which cause, the eldership themselves be judges, saving that the latest platforms for choice of a minister, will have some other minister near to lay on hands with the lay elders, lest also they should seem to give that function, which none of themselves have. In this action 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, even all the whole multitude was called and used in election: but women, children, and youths, the discipliners themselves will exclude from giving voices. When the multitude had chosen them, they presented thento the Apostles: but our elderships will first have both nomination & election, and then they will present the elected to the people. Here neither the Apostles nor the multitude are said to have fasted, and therefore not to be presumed where the holy ghost in wisdom hath omitted to mention it, as themselves reason, when it serveth their turns. But the examples Acts 13.14. (not touched by the Demonstrator) do mention fasting, & the platformers do necessarily require it in all ecclesiastical elections. The apostles after prayer made, without further inquisition or examination into the persons do only lay hands upon them, the ministery of the word & sacraments being included in their apostleship. But our platformers (I hope) will not refuse hereupon all examination of those who first are elected by the multitude, and yet being mere lay elders, will presume to impose hands, not only upon Deacons, but also upon ministers of the word, function & offices which themselves have not, & this they do where their discipline is already planted: but where it is to be planted, there (I think) as the people shall choose, so shall they also ordain & impose hands upon the ministers, than they upon the elders, & the ministers & elders both upon the Deacons, after which time the people for ever shall give up this office. Here by the way we note, that this notable Apostolical Church established at jerusalem, was without any lay ministering Eldership, which might impose hands and ordain Deacons, which they would not so long have lacked, if Christ by dic ecclesiae, had so long afore appointed and commanded it: by which foundation laid, thus I retort.  
The constant practice of the Apostles church must be followed.  
In the election of church officers, Act. 6.1. appeareth no constant practice of the Apostles church: ergo, In those elections appeareth nothing that must be followed. And again of the contrary thus.  
That which differeth from the practice of the apostles church, must not be followed.  
The platformers elections (as in sundry points is showed here) differeth from the practice of the Apostles Church Ergo, the platformers elections must not be followed.  
Now for the 14. Act. 25. v. Paul & Barnabas ordained ministers with prayer & fasting, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: ergo, they ordained them without election of the people, because no mention is made of the election or approbation of the people, antecedent or subsequent.  
The place serveth to prove, the right of election and ordination whatsoever was in Paul and Barnabas, and not any wise in the people, as it is an invincible argument to be gathered out of the words, if the Demonstrator did understand, or T.C. (for all his bragging) a Greek text aright. When they had ordained unto them ministers or pastoral elders: for one & the same in one respect cannot be ordainer, & those for whom they were ordained: the consequence therefore is, they did not ordain with them, or with the promiscuous multitude, but for them: for here be three sundry persons mentioned, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ordainers Paul and Barnabas: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, priests or ministers ordained, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, for the Churches of Antioch, Iconium, Lystra and Derbe.  
That it must so be understood, appeareth thus. Those which preached and taught, v. 20. comforted the minds, and exhorted v. 21. prayed with fastings, v. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, it was they which (as I translate it) by imposition of hands ordained ministers unto those churches, for all those participles have none other verb to relate unto. But Paul and Barnabas were the persons only that preached, etc. Ergo, they only were the persons that so ordained ministers. But against this clear light they seek to shadow themselves by the doubtful and heathenish interpretation of this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, which signifying by etymology to stretch out the hand, they say is an allusion to the manner and custom of the multitude in some popular common wealths of Greece, to signify their assents by lifting up their hands to matters proposed. To grant them that such custom was somewhere amongst the Grecians (though rarely) observed: is it likely that this confused course was thence borrowed, and brought into the Church by the Apostles? Nay rather as upon a custom not unlike used amongst the Romans, all that do assent by what gesture soever, even at this day may not unaptly be said in Latin, Pedibus ire in sententiam, so was this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, drawn from that usage to any ordaining or appointing of men to functions, in what manner soever by one or more, as may appear by infinite places in the purest Greek writers, profane and divine. One example in S. Luke himself, Acts 10. v. 41. may suffice, where the same word is used, viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, witnesses afore ordained for the ordination and choice that God himself made of his apostles. And the like is said Act. 22. v. 14. of Paul, that God did ordain him to know his will, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a word derived of the hand. They might hereof then as well gather, & so might as probably translate those places, as they do this place, that the Apostles & Paul were chosen not only by God, but by the suffrages of the people also, & that testified by lifting up of their hands (a thing absurd to be deemed): and is not this a pretty opinion & sufficiently well grounded, to trouble the church with, that is built upon nothing saving the doubtful interpretation of one single word? This is no marvel: for in truth upon the divers interpretations of 8. or 10. such words in the testament, is the whole frame almost of the new platform builded, as were easy to be showed in his due place. Because they will not believe me perhaps herein, let them for the true understanding hereof, peruse all the old Latin translations to be found, & the father's Greek & Latin, that ever either writ of this place, or have occasion to use the word for ordination of ministers, & they shall find that it importeth no creation or election by suffrages of the people, but ordination with laying on of hands: for if it should not here so signify, we should be driven to confess that Paul & Barnabas laid not their hands of the ministers whom they ordained. 
Chrysost. in Act. 6. homil. 13.  S. Chrysostome an ancient Greek father, and Archb. of Constantinople, thus writeth, Non dicit quomodo, etc. he telleth not how (saith he) but simply saith that they were ordained by prayers: for this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, ordination. The hand is laid upon the man, but it is God who worketh all, and it is his hand that doth touch the head of the ordained, if he be ordained as he ought. And S. Hierome most plainly: 
Hierom. in 58. Isaiae.  Three other interpreters (saith he) did translate the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, a finger stretched forth, but the most of us do interpret it the ordination of clergy men, which is performed not alone by the prayer of the voice, but by the laying on of hands. But if the Demonstrator meant not deceitfully, why did he not (for proof of the constant practice of the Apostles church herein) produce all ordinations of ecclesiastical persons to any function in the whole testament? Forsooth he saw, the further he waded, the less likelihood of his purpose. For in Act. 13. the 4. prophets & doctors of Antioch, beside Paul, did with prayer, fasting, and laying on of hands, ordain & separate Paul & Barnabas to that holy function, which the spirit there called them unto. Here are no traces of people's propounding, electing, or of any eldership to concur with these ecclesiastical ordainers, yet was it then a most famous Church. In 1. Tim. 3.4. etc. he is taught the qualities of bishops & Deacons, and precepts are given to him that he might know how to converse & behave himself in the church of God, 1. Tim. 3. 1. Tit. & Titus was left by Paul in the Isle of Candie to supply that which wanted, & to ordain bishops and ministers in the congregations, as S. Paul had afore prescribed to him. In both which whole epistles, not the least tidings are to be learned of any popular or Oligarchical intermeddling in elections of people, or of any such elders. The conclusion therefore is, that there is neither constant nor inconstant rule and practise of perpetual election by the people from any example of the Acts, or other part of the new testament.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
If the people had interest in the liking of their teaching Levites, 
Demonstration.  Then much more the people now. But the first, ergo the second Num. 8. v. 9  
I like not this manner of dealing in your own respect, 
Remonstrance.  to derive your presbytery from Sanedrim, and your election from the ceremonial law: for all this tendeth unto judaisme, and will overthrow your whole platform.  
To the Antecedent and sequel of the same.  
If you conclude for your purpose, you mean by Interest in liking, viz. your election: for other liking is not worth the liking. Even with us (whom you do mislike) the people may show their cause of dislike, & the minister be disauthorized. You would reason à fortiore, but the reason proceedeth ab infirmitate. Admit (which ought not to be granted) the people might choose Levites under the ceremonial law, they cannot choose after the abrogation of the same.  
The sequel of the Mayor is not good, for whatsoever was then used towards the Levites, though happily it might now be used, yet doth it not follow that of necessity it must now so be.  
To the Assumption.  
But they had etc. No forsooth: It was a ceremony of offering and purifying instituted in that place, not of election of the Levites: for God had chosen them before, Num. 3. I cannot marvel sufficiently at the strange boldness of this sort of men. The purpose here is to prove election of church officers by the whole church: but now he telleth us only of a liking the people must have. He speaketh when the Levites are to be elected, 
Num. 3. & 8.  the place is when they are to be offered, for all the Levites male are elected and destinated from their birth to the service of the priests in the tabernacle, in stead and redemption of all the first borne of the people, whom the Lord had consecrate unto himself, which was the cause why the people laid their hands on the Levites heads, when they were to be offered, as yielding them up in their steeds to that service. This offering of them was after 25. years of their age, and they served till 50. He telleth us of teaching Levites, the place is of all the Levites male, to serve the priests about dressing the sacrifices in the Tabernacle of the congregation. Shall we say that all the 20. thousand Levites that were then dedicated to this service, and all their successors proved learned, & able to teach, and did they in deed all teach in the Tabernacle? And did every one of all the children of Israel lay his hand upon every Levites head that was offered, which is the ground work of the whole people's interest in election that should hereof be proved? As the people laid their hands on the Levites, so did the Levites on the heads of the bullocks, shall this also be retained among Christians? Why they themselves do not require nor allow the people to lay hands upon the elected, but only the eldership. And because here the people laid on hands, had they authority to allow or disallow of them, whom the Lord had chosen afore? Moses the civil Magistrate is commanded to take them indefinitely, therefore all Levites of those years, and to cause them to be purified: likewise to cause the congregation of Israel to be assembled, and to bring the Levites before the Lord: but Aaron and his sons the priests did only offer them, and (as it were) by sacrifice consecrate them to the service in the Tabernacle. Shall then our civil Magistrate be permitted so much in Church elections, as here Moses was? and will they be content that the low degree Ecclesiastical be consecrated and ordained by the greater (as here) and not the greater by the less? as they absurdly do ordain ministers, by the hands of unministring Lay elders? When we urged a lawfulness of superiority and degrees in Ecclesiastical persons, by the like equity under the law, yea even among priests themselves, one being above another, than (said they) all was but ceremonial, and there was an high priest only for a type of Christ, and not for any direction or government belike. But when we call for proofs of their presbyteries and perpetuity of them, than did they make Pastors answer to Priests, Doctors to Levites, Lay elders to I know not what Governors, and Deacons to Keepers of the treasury, 
Counterpoison.  so that the Hierarchy in the old, was thus to be columned in the new, making the Scriptures by such dalliance to serve their turns at all assays, as Procustes did his bed for men of all statures, by cutting of some, and stretching the shortest to the length of it. Veritas est simplex, mendacium multiplex. They had need of many shifts for a false matter. Therefore all that you can make out of that place (if the Mayor were necessary) is this.  
The children of Israel put their hands upon the Levites, 
Absurdity of the demonstrator.  or the heads of the Levites: the Levites put their hands upon the heads of the bullocks, ergo, the people now must lay their hands on the heads of the Ministers, and the Ministers must lay their hands on the heads of bullocks. For this your good reason learned of him, (as I said afore) Et vitulo tu dignus & hic. It is too egregious abuse of God's people thus to trifle, and yet to set such a grim countenance on the matter, as if every word dropped down an Oracle from them.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which appertaineth unto all, 
Demonstration.  must be approved of all the Congregation: but the ministery in the Church pertaineth to all, ergo, authority to approve pertaineth to all.  
This is a paralogism: 
Remonstrance.  for authority, is in the conclusion, which is not in either the premises, and therefore 4. termini.  
This Mayor is a rule of law.  
Quod omnium interest, ab omnibus debet approbari, but so many exceptions as syllables in the rule. But to the reason of the Maxim or rule.  
Not every one whom it concerneth to be governed, must have a stroke in the choice of the governor, whether in election of a Mayor of a city, or choosing a Burgess, or Knight of the shire, but legales homines, such as are credited with the matter. This reason is too popular. To have a good Prince is every man's benefit, yet must not all Princes go by election: and if this be a divine rule of nature, and so to be understood, why do the most voices carry the matter, yea the odd voice oftentimes?  
This absurdity of demonstrating is not out of kenning, but in every man's sight, if you would make another syllogism, which is this:  
That which pertaineth unto all, 
Retortion.  must be approved of all:  
The ministery pertaineth to all men, women, and children of the Congregation, ergo, the approbation pertaineth to all men, women, and children of the Congregation.  
And if one do but dissent, the election must be dashed, because all are interessed, and some one or other may be prejudiced uncalled thereunto, which is wholly contrary to their practice and platform: and though the ministery reacheth to all, doth it therefore follow the election of the Minister doth belong to all? Why not then his vocation, examination, and his ordination by imposition of hands as well shall belong to all? all which you do alonely attribute to your Elderships.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
That which is most effectual to bring the people to obedience, 
Demonstration.  is the best election, and may not be abridged: But election by common consent is so, ergo, election by the Church is best, and all other unlawful.  
To the Mayor.  
Not every thing that effecteth obedience is forthwith best: 
Remonstrance.  for flattery stealeth away eftsoons the people's hearts, as in Absoloms ambition, that spoke the people fair, to take the crown from his father's head, and put it on his own.  
To the Minor.  
But election by common consent is neither so nor so, if you mean the common and base sort of people taken into elections: nay the contrary is true, for who hath chosen them may depose them: which taketh away all godly liberty of frank rebuking them, from the Minister, and in them all behoveful awe and reverence towards their own creature.  
But sir, if you can frame such election that all the world can agree upon: Consensio nationum, lex naturae putanda est. The agreement of all is the law of nature: otherwise in popular elections you perhaps know what Livy in his first Decad, saith: ut ferè fit maior pars vincit meliorem, the greater part overcometh the better: but you run not in your conclusion, because though it were admitted to be best, yet doth it not follow that all other be unlawful and nought.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
That election which procureth greatest reverence to the teacher, is best: 
Demonstration.  But so it is in the people's consent. ergo,  
This argument, and the former 4. 
Remonstr.  (if the parts were granted true) do but hold with the usual limitations of caeteris paribus, other things weighed and considered together, that is the best election that procureth obedience, reverence, etc.  
To the Mayor.  
The virtue of the man, sufficiency of learning and honesty, procureth amongstall good men the best reverence and estimation, not aura popularis, the fond and wandering opinion of the people. Bellua multorum capitum plebs, the common people hath more heads than Hydra, and will easily contemn him whom they have advanced.  
To the Minor.  
We see otherwise by experience, as in our Saviour jesus Christ his case, one day make him a king, the other day nail him on the cross. This day cry 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, to morrow cry crucifige.  
The 6. Allegation of the Demonstrator, with the testimonies of the ancient writers, in steed of the sixth Demonstration.  
The Minister should be chosen, 
Demonstration.  the people being present in the eyes of all, by the common judgement, 
Cypr. li. 1. ep. 3.  testimony, approbation, and this is the lawful vocation out of the word of God.  
It is the 4. 
Remonstrance.  epistle of the 1. li. therefore your unskilfulness in quoting, or negligence in reading, is to be noted here. The words are falsified by you: Quod & ipsum videmus de divina authoritate descendere ut sacerdos plebe present, 
Cypr. li. 1. ep. 4. de Mart. & Basilide.  etc. sub assist entis populi conscientia ordinationes sacerdotales fieri oportere. Where no common judgement, testimony, consent, or approbation is mentioned, but only the people's knowledge and presence.  
Cyprians words extend to the legal of a Priest and evangelical ordination of a Bishop, as of Eleazar in Aaron's place, 20. Num. and of every Catholic bishop, and not of every minister (as is showed afore) and can never be misproved. Then which, a more strong example cannot be brought against you: for if a bishop's ordination do answer to the consecration of the high priest by God's appointment, and out of the 20. of Numb. to be proved, then is T.C. shift of the high priests, being a type of Christ, no warrant to exclude the superior degree of bishops above other ministers, under the Gospel. And as Moses by God's direction there, when Aaron was to die, put off his clothes, & put them on Eleazar his son: so must the civil Magistrate have the chiefest sway in the calling and investiture of Bishops: for, of the people no more is there said, but that they, uz. Moses, Aaron, and Eleazar went up to the mount about this business, in the sight of all the Congregation. Yet both the one of a Bishop, and the other of the Minister with us are solemnized in a Congregation in the presence of the people: that if any have knowledge of exceptions to be lawfully made, he may freely allege them: ut detegantur malorum crimina, bonorum merita praedicentur.  
The 7. Allegation.  
That is certainly a divine election of a Bishop which is made by the whole Church. 
Demonstrator.   
Ambrose writeth, Ecclesiae Vercellensi, to choose them a Bishop, 
Remonstrance.  the custom being then of such a choice as afore is described: neither doth he speak of all rules of choosing but of the good and commendable choice of Eusebius the Confessor: 
Ambrose ep. 82.  Merito creditum quod divino esset electus judicio quem omnis Ecclesia elegit: 
Socrat. eccl. hist. lib. 4. cap. 25.  As also in Ambrose election, unto which Valentianus the Emperor gave his royal command, qui iusserat ut alium crearent Episcopum.  
The 8. Allegation. 
Demonstrator.   
Let the people have authority to choose their Clerks and Ministers.  
There is not any such title to be found in any his Epistles ad Ruffinum: which here is quoted at large, 
Remonstrance.  as if he had written but one Epistle to him, the better to cover this coggery. 
Hieron. ad Ruffinum.   
The 9 Allegation.  
They run to bishops suffragans (speaking of Clarks) certain time of the year, 
Demonstrator.  and bring money and they are anointed and ordained being chosen of none: 
Hierom ad Nepotianum.  And afterward the Bishop in is chosen of the Canons or Prebendaries only, without knowledge of the people.  
The margin hereof is beautified with this elegy: 
Remonstrance.  This is right our English fashion, as if he had found some great treasure. It is a lewd fashion for you or any other to misreport S. Hierome, or this whole Church of England: there is not any such word in that whole Epistle, except you have some larger copies than we have, of your own framing. It is likely you took this out of some other book of the brotherhood, being their own words, but finding this quotation not far off, thought it pertained unto these words. Those that take up all of trust, are forced often to lie by it.  
The 10. Allegation. 
Demonstrator.   
Nazianzen. in the Oration of the death of his father, approveth the election by the people, and confuteth them that would hinder it.  
What egregious impudency hath the Demonstrator thus to cite Greg. Nazianz. whose words are these: 
Remonstrance.  Purissimae populi parti, hoc est & sacris ministris & nostris Nazaraeis, quibus vel solis vel potissimum illis electiones committi oportebit, sic enim ecclesiae nunquam male esset. The purest sort of people, that is, holy Ministers and our Nazarites should be the chief electors of Bishops, so the Church should never do amiss.  
The 11. Allegation.  
Augustine when he appointed Eradius to succeed him, 
Demonstrator.  saith it was the approved right and custom, that the whole Church should either choose or consent to their Bishop.  
I take the place you mean to be in the 110. 
Remonstrance.  epist. August. which appointment or designment of his successor is against the 4. Conc. Toletan. cap. 18. which you mean to allege in your 18. Allegation to serve another turn.  
How little this maketh for your purpose, he that will read that Epistle may see. First it concerneth the election of a Bishop, and not of any inferior minister, as the Demonstrators general issue importeth. Besides, it is not an ordinary election, when as Augustine both desired that himself might resign, and appointed his successor in his life time: therefore less marvel if he would not do it wholly against the people's wills: yet how slender a consent was looked for, which the Demonstrator would make a solemn election, these words of Augustine do show: Lest any (saith he) should think much or complain of me, I declare my will which I believe to be the will of God in all your hear, 
August. epi. 110.  and knowledge: I will have Eradius the minister to be my successor: whereupon the people used this acclamation, Deo gratias, thanked be God.  
There is no mention of their right, or of the custom. If you mean not this place, it might have pleased you to have quoted it. Augustine's whole works are somewhat too large to be perused over to trace you in an untruth. Besides, in that you say with a disjunctive Either choose or consent, your issue is not hereby concluded, for the disjunctive is true, if either part be true.  
The 12. Allegation. 
Demonstrator.   
Anthimius choosing a Bishop without the consent of the people filled all Armenia with sedition. 
Basilius' epist. 58.   
Basill writeth this to Miletius: you do untruly report of Basil: 
Remonstrance.  Volopietatem tuam scire quod fraeter Anthimius Faustum cum Papa agentem Episcopum, spretis suffragiis in locum reverendissimi fratris Cyrilli ordinavit sic, ut Armeniam seditione repleverit, where is to be noted ordinavit sic, Emphatically, So and in such sort, Spretis suffragijs, In contempt of the people, who might be interessed. Lastly, one absent or from hence abiding, in another place with the Patriarch.  
The 13. Allegation. 
Demonstrator.   
Why did Peter communicate the election with the Disciples? least it should turn to a brawl. 
Chrysost. 1. Act.   
Chrysostome is the best interpreter of himself, 
Remonstrance.  whom you should have faithfully alleged: the words together with the sense are: Nunc autem tempori judicandi negotium permisit illis: 
Vide Chrysost. supra 6. Act. Eligere viros illis permittum.  It was but a temporary permission or leave: An non licebat ipsi? was it not lawful for Peter to elect? Yes verily saith he, it was lawful, but he doth it not: ne cui videretur gratificari, lest he should seem to gratify one more than another.  
The 14. Allegation out of the testimonies of general Counsels.  
It is meet you should have power to choose and to give their names that are worthy to be clerk, 
Demonstrator.  according to the laws and decrees of the Church: If any die, 
Council Nicen. teste Theodoret.  they who were last chosen are to be promoted to the honour of him that is dead, if they be worthy of it, and the people choose them.  
The Demonstrator leaveth Theodoret with a blank for book and Chapter: the place, 
Remonstrance.  lib. 9 cap. Eccles. Histor. ex Epistola Concilij Niceni: Ecclesiae Alexandrinae & Egypt. Pentapol. etc. written against Arrius & against Miletius, but against Miletius with less severity, that he should lose his authority & power, but retain his name of dignity & office. The Council therefore speaketh of the Clergy, not of the people's choosing. jura Clericorum qui orthodoxi manserunt, it is the right of the Clerks, who are Orthodox, as Irenaeus noteth in the margin, who should choose other clerks. Howbeit, if needs you will understand the people and Clergy, we will not deny the people present to have by acclamations testified their approbations of elections made as is afore noted, neither for all that bind christian people to the same order in election now. By the way I observe you are not the best translator ad verbum, of the words of the council mangled by you: Modo idoneus videatur, so he be fit & populus illum eligat, and the people choose him, Episcopusque Alexandrinus ei suffragetur, adeoque populi electionem confirmet. There is the Bishop of Alexandria his necessary and negative voice who was Metropolitan and one of the four ecumenical patriarchs.  
The 15. 
Demonstrator.  Allegation.  
Let the people choose, & the Bishop approve & seal up the election with them.  
This proveth the elections were not so absolute in the people, 
Concil. Nicen. Trip. Hist. 2. li.  but might be countermanded by the Bishop who seemeth to obtain and hold a negative voice. 
Remonstrance.   
The 16. Allegation.  
In an Epistle to Damasus, 
Demonstrator.  Ambrose, etc. saith, We have ordained Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople, the whole city decreeing the same: and Flavianus was appointed Bishop of Antioch, 
Concil. Const. test. Trip. Hist. li. 9 cap. 14.  the whole city appointing him.  
The place is in Theodoret. lib. 5. cap. 9 Praeposuimus in generali concilio nostro Nectarium cum omnium clericorum & totius civitatis approbatione present Imperatore Theodosio. 
Remonstrance.   
We have placed, that is, we Bishops, saith Theodoret in the Chapter going before: the Pastors and Ministers did choose him, the whole city was well pleased therewith: As for Flavianus, the same answer serveth in the same case.  
The 17. 
Demonstrator.  Allegation.  
When he hath been examined, let him be ordained Bishop by the common consent of the Clarks and lay people. 
Concil. Carthag. cap. 1.   
We will not strive whether he must be tried, as also both, vel Episcoporum examine vel populi testimonio, 
Remonstrance.  or whether ever any Bishop de facto, have been so ordained, but whether always of necessity it must be so. 
22. cap. 3. Concil. Carthag.   
The 18. Allegation.  
Let him not be counted a Priest whom the Clergy & people doth not choose.  
The words are, 
Demonstrator.  qui nondum ad 30. annos pervenerint: qui nec à clero nec à populo propriae civitatis electi sunt: Neither by Clergy, nor people: 
Conc. Tolet. distinct. 50.  So that either served.  
It is a shame for you to allege that Canon which maketh so directly for Priests, 
Remonstrance.  Bishops, and metropolitans: The witness you bring for you, you may not reject.  
The 19 Allegation. 
Demonstration.   
If any Bishop be chosen but out of the Bishops of the same province and of the clergy, and citizens, let another be chosen. 
Con. Gabilon. cap. 10.   
We confess such elections of Bishops were in use then, the people having the least stroke therein: 
Remonstrance.  but that maketh nothing to the state of the question, whether it must needs be so now in all ministers, because it was then used in Bishop's elections. That which was used then, these men themselves abrogate by taking away all such Bishops. Note by the way the Demonstrator and T.C. can use the testimonies of Counsels, which otherwise they impugn, yea, use the testimony of a provincial council, yea, such a council which 14. can. giveth ordination of clerks unto Bishops and forbiddeth 4. can. any two Bishops to be in one city ordained or abiding: the contrary whereof, the puritans draft doth importune and crave, making every pastor a Bishop, by which reckoning there would be 129. Bishops in London.  
The 20. Allegation out of the Emperor's laws.  
Following the doctrine of the apostles etc. we ordain that as oft as any place of ministers shallbe void in any city, 
Demonstration.  voices shallbe given of the inhabitants of the city, that one of three for right faith and holiness, 
justinian in cod.  be chosen to the Bishopric.  
The words of the constitution are craftily suppressed, 
Remonstrance.  & yet borrowed of Illiricus, at second and third hand: The demonstrator who doth gather the rhapsodies showeth not where in the codi. but in novellis constitutionibus 123. following &c. We make this pragmatical law, that as often as it shallbe necessary, the clergy and primates of the city shall assemble, for which city the Bishop is to be ordained, and swear to choose etc. of three: one fit, above 35. years old.  
The words are, ut ex tribus illis personis quae decretis hoc modo eliguntur melior ordinetur electione et judicio, eorum qui ordinandi ius habeant: By the inhabitants, he meaneth clergy and chief of the city: so the inhabitants must choose three, the Emperor choose one to be ordained. Understand in this law: he saith following, etc. Not for kind or manner of election but for the men eligible: ut sint integerimi & incorrupti: for no such election for one to be chosen amongst three, is to be deduced from the apostles of Christ.  
The 21, Allegation. 
Demonstrator.   
Being not ignorant of the holy Canons, etc. We assent to the Ecclesiastical order that the Bishop be chosen by the election of the Clergy and people. 
Carol mag. distinct. 63. sacrorum Canon.   
He doth not say Canons of the Apostles or holy scripture, which argueth sundry kinds & manner of elections in sundry places: but rather he saith Secundum statuta Canonum in propria diocaesi: 
Remonstrance.  according to the statutes Canonical of every Dioecese: for the Emperors would not suffer the diminution of any of their privileges.  
The 22. 
Demonstrator.  Allegation.  
Ludovicus Caroli filius decreed that he should be Bishop of Rome, whom the people should consent to choose.  
This I take to be Distinct. 63. 
Remonstrance.   
I know no better Illative a man may draw from this, then Ergo, it is in the power of the Emperor who made it, to alter also the decree: to what end else saith he We decree?  
The 23. 
Demonstrator.  Allegation.  
Out of Platina in vita Adriani 2. the Romans were commanded by letters to choose their own Bishop. 
Platina.   
This is an untrue report: He doth not command the doing, but commend them for doing: 
Remonstrance.  Romanos admodum laudat quod sanctè & integrè creassent: But howsoever the Emperor swallowed and digested the injury, the Emperor's Ambassadors were secluded, and the election was tumultuous, as (for the most part) popular elections are wont to be. And even then the Bishops of Rome began to usurp a tyranny.  
The 24. Allegation.  
In the life of Leo the 8. 
Demonstrator.  Let the people, saith Otho the Emperor, choose, I will approve.  
This proveth the power of the civil magistrate, 
Platina.  being Christian for election of Ministers: 
Remonstrance.  and that the consent of the people is not necessarily requisite: for this Otho put out Bennet whom the people had chosen in steed of john the 13. and placed Leo again, whom the people had displaced. But one thing must be often iterated and inculcated upon these learned Demonstrators. The question is not between us and antiquititie, whether the people had approbation in elections of Bishops in divers places of Christendom, and especially in Rome: But the question is between us and the Churchwrights at this day, whether the whole manner of all Ecclesiastical men's elections, be constantly, precisely, and singularly deduced from, and attributed by the scriptures to the whole people of that Church.  
The 25. Allegation of new writers.  
Musculus in his common place of the title of magistrates. 
Demonstration.   
Bullinger 1. Timoth. 4.  
Caluin. Institut. 4. lib. 3. cap. sect. 15.  
Confess. Heluet. cap. 18. are ours and many others in this behalf.  
This Qui dicunt, or jurors cannot agree on their foreman, 
Remonstrance.  to speak one thing or deliver in one verdict. For if Musculus say, aplebe & ministris in primis Ecclesys eligebantur antistites, The Prelates were chosen of the people and ministers: he will add and say the truth and the whole truth, Talis tum erat ecclesiarum status, such was the state of the Church policy then: now there is a Christian magistrate, the state is otherwise.  
As for Caluin, 
Huius res certae regula ex Apostolorum institutione peti non potest.  he holdeth that there never was instituted by the Apostles, any uniform order in Church elections. li. 4. Instit. ca 3. sect. 13. As for the confession, it maketh no necessity of such elections. And for Bullinger contra Anabaptistas', What doth he mean? Remember him I pray you when he writeth thus:  
The Anabaptists pretend a calling by the people: But our calling is authorized from the Christian Prince, who is therewith credited by the Christian people.  
The 26. Allegation or Demonstration.  
If there be none write against it but the Papists: 
Demonstrator.  and no other arguments but Papistical, than the election belongeth to the people: the 1. is true. Ergo the second.  
This is a long leap from the antecedent to the consequent, 
Remonstrance.  à personis adres: If none but Papists, or if all Papists band against election by the people, then is the election by the people true: aswell, if all transubstantiators writ against consubstantiators, Ergo, all consubstantiation is by the reason a likelihood of truth. If no Papists had written against popular election, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  popular election is never the truer. If none but the papists did first extirpate heresies, than were those heresies to have likelihood of truth.  
To the Assumption.  
But none etc. Many orthodox old and new writers, writ against their popularity of election, and against their positions. As for arguments, they are plentiful in scriptures, Counsels, Fathers, besides the practice well-near of all the world of Christianity.  
The 1. objection of the Demonstrator.  
They were under the cross and few in number. Ergo, the fitness sooner known and easier espied. 
Demonstration.   
The Answer of the Demonstrator.  
The gospel was dispersed throughout all Asia, Africa, & Europe, and could keep less together: Ergo, that maketh for us.  
Although the gospel was sown in Asia, 
Remonstrance, with reply.  Africa, Europe: Nevertheless, it is not so much to have it sown in many places, as to have it deeply sunken in many persons and generally received: Ergo, this maketh rather against, then for you. And therefore could not be such uniform assemblies as immediately in jerusalem upon the ascension of our saviour: multitudinis credentium erat cor unum, via una.  
The 2. objection of the Demonstrator.  
There are many hypocrites: 
Demonstration.  Ergo, dangerous to grant elections unto them.  
The Answer of the Demonstrator.  
True: but it is a principle in hypocrisy to be forward in elections and such actions.  
Belike the demonstrator hath read over the Aphorisms of hypocrisy: 
Remonstrance, with reply.  or an hypocrite himself being a man so forward to set forward these elections savouring of popularity. Me thinketh I may mislike the answer: it should be thus shaped to his own objection: because hypocritical men are many in the church, Ergo, many such may set forward such elections.  
The argument doth not hold, à coniugatis: but that hypocritical electors will make hypocritical elections, and eligible hypocrites: and few others in their church.  
The 3. objection of the Demonstrator.  
They had knowledge, our people are ignorant. 
Demonstration.   
The Answer of the Demonstrator.  
Our people would have knowledge, if they had teaching: they cannot choose worse than the Bishops and the patrons.  
Our people would &c. This is an apparent digression and no answer to himself: 
Remonstrance, with reply.  Our people have not the knowledge together with those gifts the primitive christians had: howbeit if the patrons might present, and the Bishops freely without suit in law choose, you should find the commodity of Bishop's election. As for patrons, some I know most honourable, most virtuous, and religious patrons who will not to gain a world of commodities, defile their hands with pitch of bribery: as for cormorant patrons (whereof some I know) no man meaneth to patronize their sacrilegious impiety.  
The 4. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
The Church was no then established. 
Demonstration.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
That is untrue: for the Apostles did better establish without the help of the Christian Magistrate, than we with the help of them.  
Nay it is most infallibly true, that colourably you now object. 
Remonstrance with reply.  For the Church was not established concerning civil government and Magistracy, which did persecute the Church, and killed the children of it in manner altogether, massacring the Christian professors: howbeit the church was established concerning faith and spiritual government, not concerning the visible society and policy of the Church externally, being then under persecution. And therefore the Illation is false and erroneous, to say the Apostles did better establish the outward face of Christianity, and practise of religion, than Christian Kings and Queens in their tender care and maintenance of the Church's policy. But hereof may be gathered, how gladly these men would seclude all Christian Princes from rule in matters Ecclesiastical, as I have afore noted.  
The 5. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Drunkards and Papists will choose like themselves, the best disposed are fewest. 
Demonstration.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
Such are not of the Church, but without. 1. Cor. 5.12. v.  
Known drunkards are in the Church, but not of the Church, 
Remonstrance.  unless they repent. As for the eldership to reform the people, (which you would have) is for the multitude to reform the multitude. And as for the schools of the Prophets (if you mean the Universities, which you must send your Ministers unto) they will send few enough to you, their maintenance being taken away by those whom you have organized: all might come to barbarity and turcism.  
The 6. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Paul commandeth Timothy to lay hands on no man rashly. Timoth. 1.5. cap. 22. v. ergo, One did it. 
Demonstration.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
He teacheth what to do for his part, though others would be rash, he should not join with them.  
He teacheth him his duty, 
Remonstrance.  and in him all others that have power to ordain Ministers, to do nothing with temerity. Look upon the place: S. Paul speaketh singulariter to Timothy, not to any Eldership.  
This interpretation is but a new trick of one of their patriarchs, in his Ecclesiastical discipline never heard of afore, and is convinced by the pregnant circumstances of the place, and the uniform consent of all ancient writers thereupon. For the epistle is directed to Timothy himself, to the end to teach him how to demean himself in the Church. Immediately afore this place, he gives precepts how widows should be maintained, and what proportion of allowance he was to make unto ministers: how Timothy should receive an accusation against a minister, what course he should use in admonitions and rebukes, according to the diversity of sins. Then Paul adjureth him most earnestly, that in the exercise of his office in this behalf, he observe an equal course of justice, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, without all prejudicate opinion, or leaning to one side more than to another, viz. prejudice and partiality, two words judicial, and two things that are the very banes of all upright administration of justice. Then followeth (after jurisdiction) this precept of ordination, wherein he ought not to deal rashly, lest otherwise his sins whom he so ordaineth, be imputed unto him the ordainer. And after a little, answereth an objection that might be made, how it should be possible for him to know afore hand other men's sins, that in this behalf he might keep himself blameless. Therefore Paul, to take this away, saith: That his meaning is not of sins that such shall commit afterward, but of such as were committed afore, which could no more be hidden, than a man's good conversation by past could be: so that by the whole course appeareth, that the other men's sins, whereof in ordinations he is willed to beware, lest he communicate with them, and be made guilty of them, are the sins of him, that is to have imposition of hands, and not any eldership sins, by reason of their rash ordaining of others, which these men had rather make Elders very prone unto, and Paul also less careful of all them then of Timothy alone, then that they should not here by in some appearance, be showldered into this action. Why man, if we should not traverse this gloss with you, it would follow, that elders through greater number of voices, might ordain ministers with imposition of hands, without advise or consent of any minister of the word, nay against the will of Timothy, (whom you make an Evangelist) and contrary to the last reform essential platform, and to your own answer unto the next objection following. Stick not to your own wits, let the uniform consent of learned antiquity weigh some thing with you, not only in this interpretation, but others also, lest this be found to be one of the places in that book of Discipline Ecclesiastical, which T.C. was forced in his epistle to disavow, as not agreeing unto.  
The 7. Objection of the Demonstration.  
The Council of Laodicea decreed, that people should not elect. 
Demonstration.   
Answer.  
That is as Caluine upon 16. Act. not elect alone without direction of a grave Minister.  
T. C. maketh this Council a bastard Council, 
Remonstrance.  by the judgement of the Centuries: but the Demonstrator, as privy to T.C. better pause, maketh no doubt of the Council: the 12. Canon of which Council, would have bishops preferred to Ecclesiastical dignity, by the judgement of the Metropolitan, and other bishops.  
As for Caluine, it is not material whether he have the word or no: the place is 14. Act. Quod non sit permittendum turbis, electionem facere eorum qui sunt ad sacerdotium promovendi. The common people will make turbulent elections. And is this Calvin's answer? was ever afore that Council any election permitted to Lay people, without any Ecclesiastical man, that this should need now to be decreed?  
* ⁎ *   

The fifth Chapter.  
Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
ALL those who are to be admitted to any public office, 
Demonstration.  must be examined by the Eldership.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
They who are to ordain, must have particular knowledge and examination: the Eldership is to ordain, ergo, the Eldership must examine.  
The Mayor maketh for us: 
Remonstrance.  for your Lay Elders have no knowledge for the most part to examine.  
The Minor is obscurum per obscurius, to approve an ambiguity by a doubtful thing: for we defend that the eldership you fancy, may not ordain. If we did allow them ordination, we would not stick for examination: but they want calling to ordain, and skill to examine.  
The Syllogism goeth against themselves: 
Retortion. 22. cap. 3. Conc. Carthag.  for what forehead can deny that all bishops have, or aught to have examination? witness to this all Fathers and Counsels.  
All that have ever had examination have been bishops:  
No Lay elders ever have been bishops, ergo,  
No Lay Elders ought to have examination.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
Matters of greatest importance must be done by able governors. 
Demonstration.   
Approving of Church officers, is a matter of greatest importance, & the Eldership are most able governors, ergo,  
It must be done by the Eldership.  
To the Minor.  
Preaching of the word, 
Remonstrance.  and ministration of the sacraments, are matters of greatest importance, not electing of Church officers: for this is referred to the other, neither can your Lay Elders be for this point most able, nay they are not able governors at all, and least of all to have examination of the learning of Ministers.  
This syllogism reverseth against themselves.  
Matters of greatest importance must be done by able governors: one Precedent, Pastor, and Eldership of laity, are not best able governors, ergo, one Precedent, Pastor, and Eldership, cannot do matters of greatest importance: by consequence neither minister word and sacrament, examine, ordain, nor rule the Church.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
The way whereby a man's insufficiency is best espied, 
Demonstration.  is the best way to examine.  
But by the Eldership consisting of divers, a man's insufficiency is best espied: for many eyes see more than one eye. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
We will not strive about the Mayor, 
Remonstrance.  because it serveth both our turns: But our answer is, sufficiency or insufficiency is not best espied by those who of all others are most insufficient to judge of able ministers.  
De unaquaque re judicat in ea re peritus artifex, 
Tully.   
Quam multa vident pictores in umbris & eminentia quae nos non videmus.  
Ratiocinabitúrne de coloribus ortus caecus? A blear eye, 
1. Physic.  or a blind man cannot judge of colours: the Painter or Limner can also better judge than we. Touching the reason, Many eyes see more than one: Many blear or blink eyes see not more, nay not so much as one quicksighted eye. One Ecclesiastical wise governor or prelate, is like to Lynceus eye, seethe further than all they: and sometimes he that hath but half an eye, seethe farther than Poliphemus with his great basin eye. Is not one great Clerk better able to judge of a man's sufficience in learning, than twenty thousand last of unlearned tradesmen or artisans?  
The 4. Demonstration.  
Men least subject to partiality, are to examine: The Eldership are lest ergo, 
Demonstration.   
To the Minor.  
That is a fabulous narration of your Eldership, 
Remonstrance.  who being many and but Mechanical artisans and idiots in learning, are most subject to love, hatred, favour, friendship, schism and division, Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus. Especially every one having a Negative voice in the elections, as you make by your rule: That which concerneth all, must be approved of all. Such turbulent elections of Bishops were in the Primitive Church, where as one man being a good man in the place, 
justum & tenacem propositi virum,  
Non civium ardor prava iubentium,  
Non vultus instantis tyranni,  
Mentit quatit solida.   
The 5. Demonstration.  
The Apostles way in examination is to be followed. 
Demonstration.   
For many to examine is the Apostles way: Ergo, to be followed.  
To the Mayor.  
Here he is come from his eldership unto Many, 
Remonstrance.  as if wheresoever many are, there were straight their Eldership.  
The Apostles way commanded as perpetual, is to be followed, but no such thing appeareth to be commanded.  
To the Minor.  
We must distinguish of this word Many, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  not for Eldership, but for the multitude of disciples, which is absurd now for the whole multitude to elect, much more to examine, a thing not mentioned in all scripture, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 120. Ergo, 120. must elect, examine and present now: Or the 12. did call, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, The whole multitude of disciples, 
Act. 1.15.  to choose Deacons then: Ergo, the innumerable multitude of all believers, must examine the Deacons to be chosen now: as though if the Deacons were only distributers to the poor (as is imagined by you) any learning were requisite, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  or all finite or infinite number must be choosers and opposers now. They who can do no more but render an account or reason of their own faith (if they can do that) must hear the audite and reckoning of others faith, and try their skill in high points of divinity, and so the shepherd not lead the sheep, but the sheep the shepherd: for he must teach them the next day that examined him the day afore.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
They whose testimony the people may best credit, 
Demonstration.  must examine:  
But the Elderships' judgement the people may best credit, being a company of able and sufficient men. Ergo,  
All goeth to popular democracy. 
Remonstrance.   
To the Minor.  
This is idem peridem: The Eldership is nothing else, but a few unlearned people for the most part, & can no more judge of gifts, (other than volubility of speech) than a blind man of colours.  
The 7. Demonstration.  
They who can best persuade the people of his sufficiency must examine: 
Demonstration.  But the Eldership can best persuade: Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is false: 
Remonstrance.  For a crafty Orator may seduce the people, and best persuade in a bad matter.  
To the Minor.  
The bishop of the dioecesse and others under them, can best judge of the quality of learning, themselves being learned: As for the silly Eldership, they are uncunning to persuade, and more uncunning to examine. Lord, what a confusion, barbarity and indignity were this, to have unlearned men examine ministers? Can they tell who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that neither know tongues, art liberal, or method, nor can tell a Paralogism when they hear it?   

The sixth Chapter.  
Assertion.  

1 ALl must be preachers received into the ministery.  
2 The Church may not be governed by 

Commissaries,  
Officials,  
Chancellors.     
The 1. Demonstration.  
He that may be received into the ministery, 
Demonstration.  must be able to teach the people all that Christ commanded, Mat. 28.20. Only he that is able to teach the truth, and convince the adversary, can teach the people all that Christ commanded: Ergo, none must be received into the ministery, but such as be able to teach the truth, and convince gainesaiers.  
To the Mayor.  
That whosoever may be received into the ministery, 
Remonstrance.  must be able to teach all that Christ hath commanded (for so is it here propounded) universally is not true: for than no man since the Apostles, might, or can now be received to the ministery. Things that Christ commanded to the Apostles, were of two sorts: either things for knowledge, or for conversation, what was to be embraced, and what eschewed. For matter of knowledge it was so eminent in the Apostles, being led by God's spirit unto all truth, as that they could not err in their doctrine delivered to the Churches, and that the 72. Evangelists or any since, were not endued with like measure of it. Augustine, Hierome, with all the old fathers and learned bishops that have written, have both erred (and therefore were not able to teach all knowledge that Christ had commanded his Apostles to know) and in sundry points of Scripture confess their ignorance. Beza and Caluine (whose examples I use because you do most account of them) do differ in sundry interpretations. By this rule then, the one of them (light on whether it will) was not able to teach all that Christ commanded and commended to his Apostles, and consequently no minister, because none omniscient minister.  
They doubt of some places, and some Beza himself professeth he understandeth not, as that in the Corinthians, Propter angelos, and I know other places, which I persuade myself verily he understood not, at least not aright: and shall not he be allowed with you an able minister? Then woe be to yourselves of the faction that are of this opinion, for you will (I hope) give place to Beza for sufficiency in learning. But especially woe to them that nevertheless think you ministers, and receive (as they think) sacraments at your hands, yet in truth nothing, if we might believe your own doctrines.  
The error hereof riseth, because the Demonstrator (following the steps of the devil when he tempted Christ) allegeth this Scripture defectivelie. 
Math. 4.  For it is not, teaching them all that I have commanded you: but teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. What? that all nations should observe all that Christ commanded the Apostles, either to know or to put in practice? no but teach them to observe what Christ commanded the Apostles to have observed: for the Apostles were to use many things as Apostles, which are not requisite of every Christian to be observed and kept. And as the Apostles knew many hid mysteries and depths of knowledge which is not necessary for every minister to the being of his ministery in that high measure to know: and as it is not necessary to the being of every Christian, to have as many and as excellent degrees of knowledge, as any bishop or minister of the word (else were no difference between teacher and scholar:) so I doubt not but that the Apostles were not endued with knowledge and other gifts all alike: and therefore that the like inequality may be of ministers amongst themselves, and amongst common Christians in comparison one of another, without derogating hereby from them, the essence and being either of an Apostle, minister, or good christian. The diversity of gifts are in all sorts of men of great multiplicity and variety, and every one hath not all, but as pleaseth God to dispense. There is in Scriptures milk and strong meat, rudiments and perfection, for a lamb to wade, and an Elephant to swim: and yet (as S. Augustine saith) In these things which are plainly set forth in Scripture, are all things that contain faith, or conversation and manners of men. 
Act. 20.  And though S. Paul kept back nothing of the whole will of God, ver. 27. from the ministers of Ephesus, yet doth he expound himself afore, vers. 20. 
2. Cor. 12. v. 4.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I kept back nothing that was profitable, but have showed you, etc. For all was not profitable for them, as namely he in revelation heard words not to be spoken, which was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, lawful for man to utter. Every minister cannot be of perfectest knowledge and gifts, as in the prick of perfection, for that which is superlative, 
Arist. in Topic.  agreeth only to one.  
Are all Apostles? are all prophets? are all doctors? 
1. Cor. 12. v. 29 & 30.  do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? etc. Of necessity therefore the ministers teaching of the people, (whether in matter of belief and knowledge, or what to follow and eschew) must be according to the proportion of his own knowledge and gifts, wherewith he is endued. If notwithstanding all this, joined with the experience of ministers in all times, and that which they might find in themselves, if they had the spirit of humility, they will urge, that to be in deed a minister, a man must be perfectly endued with all the enhablements by Saint Paul described: and condemn me (as the Countrey-poisoner hath done others) for saying that Saint Paul setteth down an Idea, that is a perfect sampler of an absolute minister for all to aim at, which he unskilfully and calumniouslie detorteth, as if it were meant to be such a matter as cannot possibly by any man be attained: then let Saint Hierome, (a more learned minister then one hundred of the best of these) disputing this matter professedly, sit judge between us for a final composing of this controversy touching degrees of learning, and other requisites for the ministery.  
As Orators and Philosophers (saith he) when they describe what kind of Orator or Philosopher they would wish to have, 
Hier. ad Oceanum epist. 83.  do none injury to Demosthenes or Plato, who happily are not so perfect, but describe the things without persons: so in the description of a Bishop, and in the exposition of those things that be written, a glass Sacerdotij of Priesthood, or of the ministery, is set before us: where you see the example of Idaea, or sampler confirmed. Touching the other point, 
Hier. ibidem.  he saith in the same Epistle thus. In that Saint Paul requireth a Bishop to be without fault, he comprehendeth in one word all virtues, and requireth almost a thing contrary to nature, which is more than any of us do say of it. That this may not seem lightly to have in that place slipped him, or without deliberate advise: he disputeth it at large elsewhere: for speaking of Ecclesiastical men, 
Hier. li. 1 adu. Pelag. ca 8.  he saith: Many do treat well upon the Gospels, but in expounding the Apostle are not like themselves: other that very well understand the new Testament, yet in the Psalms and old Testament are dumb: this I say, because every one cannot do all. 
Ibidem.  And again: God hath given divers precepts and manifold virtues, all which every of us cannot have at once. So it cometh to pass, that which is excellent or perfect in some, is in others but in part: and yet he that hath not all, is not blamable, neither condemned for that he hath not, but justified or approved for that he hath. The example hereof he assigneth in bishops and ministers out of S. Paul, and after thus: 
Ibidem.  Truly God would have all bishops and ministers, such as the vessel of election teacheth. First, in that he saith, a bishop must be irreprehensible, either none is such, or he is a very rare man: for who is there who hath not as it were some blemish or wart in a body otherwise fair, as Peter himself had? then, to be husband of one wife, sober, chaste, comely, harbourous, admit you may find them: but that which followeth, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, he that can teach, not docible (as the Latin reading full simply translateth it) ye shall hardly find with the other virtues. I am of opinion you shall hardly find such as shall be accused of none, that shall be of good account, even with those that are without, so as they that cannot away with his doctrine, shall like his conversation: but especially ye shall hardly find him that is mighty to resist the adversaries, and to suppress and convince erronions opinions, so that either there is none, or he is very rare that hath all which a bishop ought to have: and yet though one or two things in the Catalogue of bishop's virtues be wanting in any, he shall not thereupon want the name of a just or fit bishop, neither shall he be condemned for that he hath not, but shall be crowned for that he hath: for to have all and to want nothing, is his peculiar virtue who sinned not, and in whose mouth was no guile: which if they be so hard all at once to be found in Bishops, (who in comparison are but few) how shall they be found in every minister, in so great a Church and nation, as is the realm of England?  
To the Minor.  
Only he, etc. A minister may teach the people in plainness and truth, though he be no exact preacher or pulpit man: This exclusive, Only he, will exclude many of our opinative men, when they shall encounter with a crafty jesuite. I know the most of them are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, able to confute false doctrine, howsoever they be quick enough to reprehend faults, neither are able to dispute with a jesuite or other subtle heretic, and yet you shall do them fowl disgrace not to count them pulpit men and ministers.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That which is to be done conditionally, may not be done, 
Demonstration.  the condition not kept: Men are to be received into the ministery conditionally if they be unreprovable, Titus 1.5, 6. Therefore if they be not such as is there described, and by consequence able to teach, they are not to be received.  
To the Minor.  
This is a fond matter to be received into the ministery conditionally, 
Remonstrance.  They must be before hand rather conditioned and qualified with gifts. Our Saviour received judas into the Apostleship, whose conditions in his divine foreknowledge, he knew to be bad, and him a devil. The Apostles bestowed or conferred the Deaconship on Nicolaus, who afterwards proved a Sectary. As for the place to Tit. 1.5, 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, if a man be without reprehension, Not every one who is no actual preacher, falleth into this condemnation: Est quoddam prodire tenus sinon datur ultra, saith Horace. They may be able to teach profitably many points, yet not all. You heard S. Hieromes opinion hereof, to be a thing scarce possible in nature, to be without all blame.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which cannot be done without manifest breach of God's commandment, 
Demonstration.  may not be done at all. To receive an unable man to teach is so: Ergo, 1. Tim. 3.1. 'tis 19 v.  
To the Minor.  
The whole Syllogism is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Remonstrance.  yet true and not in question between us, if he understand, that such (who have no gift at all to teach, or in no measure can exhort or do good) are not to be received.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
They whom God refuseth to be made ministers may not be received: 
Demonstration.  The Lord refuseth all that cannot teach, Osea, 4.6. v.  
The place of Osea is, 
Remonstrance.  Because thou hast refused knowledge, I will refuse thee: thou shalt be no priest to me: because thou hast forgotten the law of God, I will forget thy children. The Prophet speaketh of wilful blindness and disobedience, knowledge is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a thing immanent and not transitive in that place.  
It is certain the Lord refuseth all those who are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, absolutely unfurnished of their gifts of learning: It is not meant comparatively of those whom God endueth with mean gifts, who do their best endeavour albeit they cannot aspire to an high eminency or singularity of learning, for teaching & preaching substantially and orderly, as were to be wished in all.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
He that may be admitted into the ministery, 
Demonstration.  must divide the word of God aright, 2. Timothy 2.15. Only he that convinceth the adversary, can do so: Ergo,  
To the Minor.  
The Minor is ambiguous and false, 
Remonstrance.  Only he, etc. for others also can divide aright and give Gods servants spiritual food with the competency of those gifts, although they cannot 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, stop the adversary and gainesaier in all things. This one quality will by a main bar exclude most, or all of our busiest and waiwardest ministers.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
He that may be admitted into the ministery must have a treasury furnished with old and new things, and able to bring it forth. Matth. 13.52. v. 
Demonstration.  Only he that is able to teach is such, ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
Our Saviour speaketh of a man that is taught, not of the teacher, 
Remonstrance.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: and therefore the Demonstrator is beside his purpose. Here is nothing less meant than admission to the ministery.  
The Minor is as false as the Mayor was: 
The Demonstrat. doth not only, but also allegorize as before.  for only he that is able to teach, etc. You see, he that is of ability to learn, and to be taught, is so ready furnished with old and new, etc.  
The 7. Demonstration.  
He that can espy the enemy, and forewarn, must be admitted, Ezech. 33.7. 
Demonstration.  None can espy but an able man to teach, ergo,  
The Mayor is false being universally taken.  
This syllogism would feign be in the third figure, 
Remonstrance.  but it is in never a mood nor figure, but quem torra, pontus.  
To the place of Ezechiel, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel, thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and admonish them.  
Every man endued with mean gifts in or out of the ministery, may admonish, though he that is a teacher may better admonish. And one of the meanest can many times descry and forewarn of the enemies approaching.  
The 8. Demonstration.  
He that leadeth his people and himself to Hell, may not be admitted: 
Demonstra.  he that is not able to teach, is so, ergo, 15. Matth. 14.  
The Mayor is a great ways about. The Minor is false in itself, 
Remonstrance.  and in allegation of the text: If the blind lead the blind, 
Matt. 15.14. v.  both fall into the ditch. It is too too peremptory to make every downfall into hell.  
A man may fall, and rise again: Septies in die cadit justus. What blind guide taught you to expound, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, into hell, in foveam, for the local place of hell?  
He that is not able to teach in any tolerable measure, is a blind guide, but God forbidden he should lead God's people down to hell of necessity. But if you mean here, as before, teaching to be preaching, and that every one that is no preacher leadeth into hell: The father, master, householder, Catechist, and also many ministers can teach and instruct their charges in godliness, who nevertheless are not able to make an exact sermon, and do not therefore lead the people in the way to hell.  
The 9 Demonstration or Allegation. 
Demonstra. Aug. l. de pastor. Remonstr.   
Who preacheth not, but holdeth his peace, murdereth.  
It is true in a metaphorical sense, in those who are called, and have the talon to discharge it as is required.  
The 10. Allegation. 
Demonstra. Greg. 1. li. 33. ep. Remonstra.   
He that preacheth not, is not sent, and so begetteth no faith.  
Take the word preaching in a larger comprehension, and it is equivalent to the word teaching: and so it may carry show of a truth: but in that 33. epistle written to Venantius Chancellor of Italy, there is no such thing.  
The 11. Allegation or Demonstration.  
In that S. Paul requireth a bishop should be wise, 
Demonstra. Hier. ad Oecum. Remonstrance.  be barreth those, who under name of simplicity, excuse the folly of Ministers.  
Those who mean and deal plainly, do quote the place of the author, whereby it may be easiest found: but how shall we by this direction ad Oecumenium find that epistle which was never written for any copy of S. Hierom, that I can get or hear of?  
The 12. Allegation or Demonstration.  
We condemn all unmeet ministers not endued with gifts to feed a flock. 
Demonstra. Confess. Heluet. Remonstrance.   
Neither do we absolve them, if they have no gifts at all to do good to their flock.  
You might take the other words with you: the harmless simplicity of some in the old Church did more good than the delicate fineness but proud learning of others: fastuosiorem.  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
There must be reading in the Church, 
Demonstration.  ergo, a reading ministery.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
There must be breaking of bread, and pouring of water, ergo, one whose office must be to break bread, and power water.  
There are six things that God hateth: 
Remonstrance with reply.  take heed you be not within the compass of all, as of some of them. This objection was made pag. 252. in the defence of the answer to the admonition. But I am sure your answer is there: Os quodmentitur, occidit animam. True it is, you cannot utterly condemn reading: sith faith cometh by reading the Scriptures within book, as by rehearsing them without book. As the Law and Moses were read, so the Gospel in the ears of the hearers.  
If you had objected for us thus:  
There may be reading ministers, ergo, a reading ministery. For a reading Minister is one that doth a particular duty in the Church, and a reading ministery is a part of his duty in the Church.  
The consequence doth hold. Quod valet in uno coniugatorum, valet in reliquis, si sint & re, & nomine coniugata. As for the inferencie, there must be an officer for every particular action. It is your own absurdity, not our collection. As out of the 12. Rom. He that distributeth in simplicity, ergo, there must be an officer of your Deaconship in the Church. May you not as well gather thus: he that showeth mercy in cheerfulness, ergo, a several officer of showing mercy in the Church?  
The 2. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Better to have Readers, than none at all. 
Demonstration.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
It is not better, for than they would seek preachers. But why are the preachers turned out?  
Where shall they find for every cure, by any narrow seeking? 
Remonstrance with reply.   
Those that be turned out, are but few, and fewer than deserve it: preaching as they preach, may not patronize schism, slander, scandal, and disobedience: not every one that taketh upon him to preach, is a preacher, nay according to the first Demonstration, and others of this chapter, and his interpretation of it, none be.  
The having a Reader, debarreth not from seeking to a Preacher, and therefore it is better to have readers then none at all. As for parrot Preachers, it is better to have a discreet Reader, than one of them, who are bold and hambolde to speak, but speak not to the purpose, or else speak schismatically, and therefore are turned out.  
The 3. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
It is impossible to have preachers every where, 
Demonstration.  ergo, readers.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
This is a disgrace to say it is impossible, and yet to say all is well, and to violate the lords decree.  
He that is challenged so to say by you, 
Remonstrance with reply.  saith it is not possible (as the state is now) to have such supply in every free chapel, or place of service of a preacher: there is some difficulty in compassing of this. But to deprave other men's word, is your special grace: as for breaking God's decree, you must better prove it then you have, or else never say that the part of a ministers duty to read in the Church, to be thus unlawful. In the fear of God be it spoken, we will thank God for our freedom both to read God's word, and preach, and pray for her majesties gracious continuance: for so much quantity of dominion, no such plenteous preaching is in all the world, as in her majesties dominion. God increase the number of learned and well advised preachers.  
The 4. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
It were uncharitableness to turn bare Readers out: 
Demonstration.  for they, their wives and children should beg.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
Better 3. or 4. beg, than damnation of 1000  
Yea it were injustice and impiety to turn them away, 
Remonstrance with reply.  because they cannot preach: for they can exhort, and teach, and minister the sacraments, no such fear of damnation of a 1000 But it is your prejudice and condemnation to avouch, that by their ministery God cannot save souls. I doubt not but much better by sundry men's labours, being but simple in learning, then by the most of that crew their vain verbal babbling, which with grief of heart I know the most of your humour to use in sermons: for set aside a few resonant ill applied words culled together, to astonish the simple a little for that time, what order, what learning, or any thing else, tending to the building of the inward man in spiritual knowledge, is to be found in most of their speakings or exercises? So that I see no difference betwixt such unlearned talkers, and the ignorant ministers (whom with great disdain they term never better than Dumb dogs) but that these, because they cannot preach will not, and therefore are less impudent: the other in truth cannot bark, but yet will be bold to be bawling, though it be but against the Moon, or with running riot. How much different is S. Hieroms judgement from yours? he saith thus: It is a fault in some Bishops, 
Hierom. 〈…〉 19 〈…〉.  that choose not into the Clergy those who be the best, but who talk the best, non meliores sed argutiores, and think simple and harmless men to be unliable for the ministery.  
The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
That the Church ought not to be governed by Commissaries, Officials, 
Demonstration.  and Chancellors.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
They who are no elders, ought not to have any thing to do in the government of the Church. 1. Tim. 5.17.  
Those Chancellors, Commissaries, Officials are no elders, whether you take elder for a minister, or assistant, ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor proposition is intricated both with schism, untruth, 
Remonstrance.  and treason. For the Queen's Majesty is no elder, no minister, no priest, and yet hath and aught to have the government of the Church: whereas such elders as you mean, have nothing at all to do in the Church, either by precept, or precedent.  
The conversion is false which the Demonstrator would have gathered: Elders govern well, ergo, they that are no Elders do not govern: others may govern in the actions of the Church, who are no pastoral elders, which is the answer to your Minor.  
For Chancellors, Commissaries, Officials, they are assistant to the pastoral elders, or do govern in foro litigioso, and yet many of them also pastoral elders and ministers. It is a loud lie to say, none of them are ministers. Well, the grief is, that every minister may not govern and rule without check of all superiors, not only bishops, or their substitutes, but any other. This is a wise Demonstration, which is a paralogism, consisting all of negatives, and is like to this, viz. No bishoply authority is lawful: none eldership is a bishoply authority, ergo, none eldership is lawful.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
They who must govern the Church, 
Demonstra.  must have a warrant for so doing from Christ: But the Chancellors, etc. have no warrant from Christ, ergo,  
The Mayor is false, if you mean immediately from Christ, 
Remonstr.  or especially and positively warranted, otherwise then as all superior power is of God. It is sufficient to be warranted from the Christian Magistrate, & those who occupy the place of the Apostles: else a Mayor, Sheriff, and Constable, justice of peace, and master of an Hospital should have an unlawful authority. For a man may no more deal without lawful warrant in the Commonwealth, than he may do in the external government of the Church.  
To the Minor.  
Their warrant is out of the word of God. He that governeth in diligence, Rom. 12. The bishops and others make them partakers of their authority, by way of delegation and substitution, which in Church and Commonwealth is both lawful: for not only by the equity, but by examples of Scriptures, and practise of the Primitive Church substitution may be approved lawful.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
They whose names, 
Demonstration.  offices, and practise, be derived from Antichrist, may not govern the Church of Christ: for who will suffer his wife to be governed by the master of a Brothel house? but so are the names, etc. of our Chancellors, because they are grounded in the filthy dunghill of the Canon law: ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is of infinite distance from the Minor. 
Remonstrance.  I answer to the Minor.  
The name of Chancellor is not found in all the Canon Law, in that sense it is used: but in the Civil Law of the Romans is used for any chief assistant sitting intra eosdem tribunalis cancellos cum Magistratu, as I have learned of those who be skilful, and is not repugnant unto, but may be said to be derived out of God's law, if the derivation be drawn à cancellis, to keep unbridled or inordinate men intra cancellos, within their bounds. So the name of Commissaries, by reason of commission or matter of charge wherewith they are credited, or Officials, for the offices they bear, are most Christian names: else why do themselves so often call their Tetrarches' Church officers, a name not found in Scripture, neither discipline in their sense, nor classis, nor provincial, or national Synod.  
As for the pillar the Minor leaneth upon, to prove their offices, and practise to be derived from Antichrist, it is weak and unstable, viz. All founded upon the Canon law, is grounded upon a dunghill. Some dunghill scholar made this Minor, to diminish and detract from the authorized Canons of the Church, under the odious name of the Pope's law. For the Canon law which is retained with us, is nothing but the old Canons of the Primitive Church, and such other approved judicials in matters Ecclesiastical, as be neither contrary to the prerogative royal, nor to the laws and statutes of the Realm, and which had been used before the making of that act of Parliament, 
25. H. 8.  & are therefore since by diverse acts in K. Ed. 6. days, and in her Majesties, honoured with the name of the kings Ecclesiastical laws, and the Ecclesiastical laws of this Realm, and they are in like sort used in the Ecclesiastical Consistories of most of the reformed Churches in Germany, as they are here, who do as little esteem the Pope, as we can do. Neither are some of those (which were set down by the Pope's authority) therefore used of us, as binding this Realm in respect of the ordainer, any more than Italy, France, or Spain, be said to acknowledge the authority of the Roman emperors over them, for using the civil laws. For we do therefore only practise them, because they concur with the former statute enacting them, and being set down by good advise, are found equal and profitable. Those who disdain them in respect of the author, do show therein as witless curiosity, as if they would urge us to abandon all printing, because it was devised first at Harlem by a Papist, or cease to defend ourselves with guns, for that a Monk invented them. But if the matter retained displease them, as not convenient nor according to rules of equity: let all the wisest of them take all the several cases propounded throughout that law, and give diverse or clean contrary decisions to that which is there given, and they shall thereby easily find themselves either ridiculous, absurd, or unjust lawgivers. The most of them are such as have happened & may happen in Church government. If they can find the decision of them in the word of God directly, we will then abandon all other Canons, and only follow theirs. The Church may not be without laws in external government, and to refer all to the governors will, were a step to all tyranny, and insolency.  
As for the slander, to call Christian Magistrates, or once to compare them to masters of the stews, they being the Ecclesiastical laws of this Realm, is a more filthy and beastly phrase of speech, 
Aconitum spunia Cerberi.  than Cerberus the hound of hell could spew. But we are too well acquainted with these fowl blasphemous mouths, & it is but suitable to the opinion they carry of the supreme Christian Magistrates, and of their laws Ecclesiastical or Common.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
They that being inferiors do tyrannize over their superiors, 
Demonstration.  ought not to rule the Church: but such as they do tyrannize over the ministers, to whom they are inferiors by the Canon law, ergo, they ought not to rule the Church.  
This is not the issue in question: 
Remonstrance.  for we say not that they are to rule the Church, but are ministers of justice, according to the ordinances of the Church.  
The Mayor is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, yet true, so long as they do tyrannize over their superiors, they ought not to rule the Church.  
To the Minor therefore: They who execute their office, with correspondence to their duty, and according to laws, do not tyrannize, neither are they in place of justice inferior, but are inferior 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, in respect of the dignity of the office of the ministery. But this office of ministery doth not always worthy the person above every calling, though not so sacred: else should every ministers person be above any Lord, or the Prince himself that chief dealeth but in matters of this life. Besides surrogatus sapit naturam surrogantis. If then the bishop who doth appoint them, be above an ordinary minister, then are they also. In place of justice, a mean Gentleman is superior to a Duke convented, and so is a poor Constable in matters of his office, by reason of them who give the authority, and whose persons they bear. But thus we turn it home again upon themselves.  
They that being inferiors do govern the superiors according to their own will, 
Retortion.  without any direction of laws, they do proudly tyrannize, and consequently neither are to rule the Church, nor in the Church.  
But your Lay elders, being of inferior calling (as yourselves confess) to your Pastors and Doctors, and much more to the whole Congregation, do govern them even to the displacing or censuring them according to their own wills and discretions without all direction of laws, which is tyranny, and their platforms do abrogate all laws, but of their own making (which are not yet framed): and in deed experience teacheth, that their Consistories will not willingly tie themselves to any set laws in their government, which maketh their decrees concerning divers persons (where the matter nevertheless is the self same) to be so divers and contrary: ergo,  
Your lay elders do proudly tyrannize, and so neither are to rule the Church, nor in the Church.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
They who live by the faults of men, are not fit to rule the Church: 
Demonstration.  But all Chancellors, Officials, Commissaries do so: Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
It is very false if it be meant per accidens, to live by faults, 
Remonstrance.  as here it must needs be: for in this sort do all judges, judicial officers and ministers having fees, live by the wrong that the one party doth to the other. So the clerks of the crown, of jail delivery, and of peace, do live by the pleas against traitors, murderers, felons, and other malefactors, etc. and yet lawful in the common weal: why not the like in the Church? Nemo militat proprijs stipendijs.  
To the Minor.  
O rash and temerarious judgement: What art thou that judgest an other man's servant? you may remember Horace saying, 
Mendax infamia terret,  
Quem nisimendosum & mendacem?   
They do not live but by honest fees, though they grew by occasion of faults, as the least part of them in deed doth, if any do, and therefore the Minor very false and slanderous. The matters whereupon their fees do rise, are either beneficial, tending to the title and maintenance of the ministery: or testamentary tending to the performance of the deads' will: or matrimonial: or for preservation of Churches and Church goods: or lastly, of punishing faults, which the temporal law doth not punish, & those are either diffamation of a man's neighbours, at the suit of some party, or of other faults, as blasphemy, sorcery, adultery, drunkenness, etc. the public corporal punishment whereof, if it be commuted into pecuniary, to their own private gain, it is not by law warranted, but is the personal fault of the man, & deeply punishable, and therefore this Minor is both without appearance of truth, and very opprobrious.   

The seventh Chapter.  
Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
OFficers of the Church are to be ordained by imposition of hands of the Eldership. 
Demonstration.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
As in the Apostles time they were ordained, so they must be still ordained: But in the Apostles time they were ordained by laying on of hands, etc. Ergo, they must continually be so ordained.  
To the Mayor.  
This word As, 
Remonstrance.  in the Mayor proposition, importeth either the whole action of ordination itself, with the manner or form, or the ceremony alone used in ordaining: there is ambiguity and doubting in this: Tell us first which you understand, and then we can tell you after, whether every form or accidental ceremony ought of necessity to be used or refused now, which in the ordaining of ecclesiastical persons was used then.  
To the Minor.  
But in the Apostles times, etc. by the Eldership, Act. 6. v. 6. and cap. 13.3. say you. Nay imposition of hands cannot be attributed to any eldership there, unless you will force a strange interpretation of the text, viz. Apostleship to be Eldership, Apostles to be unpreaching elders, & your elderships now to be as the Apostles were then in the Church: (for the first mention of Elders, viz. ministers is Act. 11.) And so all things may be one: Omnia sunt unum: Turn Laity into Clergy, and Clergy into Laity, overturn all. In like wise no more probability is to be gathered out of the other place, Acts 13.3. There were in Antioch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  In the Church as it then stood, certain Prophets and teachers, as Barnabas and Simeon called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, Manahem and Saul. Now as they ministered and fasted to the Lord, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, whiles they preached (saith Chrysostome expounding that place) or whiles they ministered unto or for the Lord. But how followeth it out of this place, that because there were Prophets and Doctors in the Church there: Ergo, there were unpreaching Elders also, though not specificallie named to be there? Or, these fasted and prayed, and laid their hands upon Barnabas and Saul: Ergo, other unpreaching elders also laid their hands: you may as justly conclude, They were not there: ergo, they were there: or the elders laid not their hands: ergo, they laid on their hands. But hereof we thus reason against you.  
As in the Apostles times they were ordained, so they must be still ordained. In the Apostles ordinations is no one word of ordination by such lay elders that might not minister the word and Sacraments, nor in any other pregnant place of Scripture, nor ever practised for fifteen hundred years and an half in any Christian Church: Ergo, In ordinations your Elders must have nothing to do: for it were intolerable presumption where the holy Ghost mentioneth not nor insinuateth any such thing, for man to say they were nevertheless there. What like Elders to yours were at Mathias election, Acts 1. at the choice of the seven, Acts 6. where none are named but the Apostles and the rest of the believers? At the separating of Paul and Barnabas in this place, Acts 13. but four other Prophets and Doctors? at the ordination of so many ministers for sundry Churches, Acts 14. other then Paul and Barnabas the ordainers, the ministers then newly ordained, and the people for whom they were ordained? at Timothy's ordination more than Paul, Per impositionem manuum mearum, as shall appear? In Crete to assist Titus, ad Tit. 1. except you will say they had elderships before they had any Elders or yet ministers, or before the Churches were planted. And again, If ordination must needs (as is here concluded) continually be made by the eldership, them can no church or congregation newly to be established, elect and ordain their own ministers and Eldership. But in this case you do attribute this whole action to the people of such congregation: ergo, by your own rules all ordinations must not be continually by the Eldership: for if it should, your Church government shall never have any beginning.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
Church officers must be ordained by them who can assure them of their calling: 
Demonstration.  Only the eldership can assure, 1. Tim. 4.14. Ergo,  
I much muse how the author can term his book a Demonstration. 
Remonstrance.  So many chinks in one plank argueth unseasoned timber. The conclusion hath only the Eldership, which only lieth not in the Mayor proposition. The Demonstration is neither formal nor material.  
To the Minor.  
Viz. Only the Eldership can assure, 1. Tim. 4.14. that is no way the purpose of the place: as shall easily appear, Despise not the grace, or neglect not the grace which is in thee, and was given thee by prophesy, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, With laying on hands of the Eldership. Whether you do understand and expound, Neglect not the grace which is in thee, and was given thee, by prophesy, that is by divine oracle and imposition of hands, with prayer of other pastoral elders, as by special occasion of a special grace confirmed unto thee (which Beza himself doth insinuate) and not his creation for the ministery: Or whether we understand, Despise not etc. the grace or gift which is in thee now, and was sometime by prophesy conferred upon thee by a farther confirmation of the laying on, or imposition of hands, of the function and office of Pastorship and presbytery which is laid upon thee, as Caluin doth allow, rather than to be by any College and officers of the presbytery. It can never be understood either in part or in whole, of a Laical presbytery to assure men of their ordinary calling in the ministery: for they that cannot confer the like grace, how can they by the imitation hereof assure the calling? In those days by laying on of hands, were often the visible graces of the holy ghost bestowed.  
The fallacy is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Fallacy.  secundùm figuram dictionis: For presbytery there is not the company or college of ordainers, but the ordination or order given by one alone principal in his authority: The figure is Metonymia, the sign, the imposition of hands for the thing signified.  
At the least this is a foul absurdity, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  that never any was either in the practice of the Apostles Church, or succeedingly, or in our church assured of his ministery, but by such a fancied presbytery.  
We therefore thus retort against you.  
They who cannot assure or confer like grace as was assured to Timothy, they have nothing to do to ordain or lay on hands, (by the grounds & interpretation of your own place) your Eldership neither do nor can assure or confer like grace. Ergo, they have not to do with ordination or imposition of hands. And again, If only the eldership can assure men of their calling, as you assume in your minor, then cannot the classis or synods ordain ministers, being several assemblies, & offices in the Church, neither can the Demonstrator nor any of the faction, have any assurance of their callings, Or else the Bishop's calling is the calling by an Eldership: Then also the blessing that you imagine God gives to your labours, is none assurance of your calling. But you will not condemn yourselves for intruders, for running before you were sent, nor deny the fruits of your pains to give assurance unto you of your callings, nor allow the Bishop that ordained you to be an eldership: Ergo, the ordination by an Eldership is not the only way to assure a man of his calling, which is the contradictory of your minor. Besides that it is unsound divinity to say that the outward calling (in what sort soever) is an assurance of the inward as here is meant.  
The 3. Demonstration or Allegation.  
Many sentences before alleged out of Counsels, laws, histories, 
Demonstration.  writers old and new, that speak for election by many, speak for ordination by many and not by one.  
Albeit we did grant for 200, years after Christ, 
Remonstrance.  the people in divers places had voices of acclamation, not of suffrages in election of their Bishops, yet had they not like in election of their pastors or priests. As for ordaining, they had no part at all either for Bishops or priests at any time. The election at sometimes permitted before princes were Christian, and even by Christian princes afterward, could not make them ordeiners: neither shall you find any act of ordination given to any of the people. All Counsels give ordination of a Bishop to the Metropolitan or to the Bishops: & therefore to give unto the Church Aldermen, this authority equally distributed were geason & strange news. Your reason roundly trussed up is this: Election was by many people's voices. Ergo, Ordination by many Elders hands: which is no sequel. And why not by one? sith the designment is so by the holy Ghost, Lay thine hands rashly on none: Timothy was but one, unus instar omnium, One in steed of all as representing all, as having the pre-eminence of ordaining above all.  
The 4. Demonstration or Allegation.  
Euagrius came to a Bishopric unlawfully, 
Demonstration. Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23.  because one Paulinus ordained him contrary to the Canons, which provide he must be ordained by all or by three at the least.  
Theod. saith, 
Remonstrance.  Plures canones simul violavit, Made him his successor being about to die, without the comprovincial Bishops. And so say we, if any will aspire without the comprovincial Bishops: but by your leave we do not intend hereby to account every parish priest, or inferior pastor to be privileged as a Bishop, which meaning I wot right well you have.  
The 5. Demonstration or Allegation.  
When a Bishop is to be ordained, 
Demonstra. Conc. Carthag. 4. ca 23.  one shall pronounce the blessing, and the rest of the Bishops with elders present shall lay on their hands.  
This is ca 2. distinct. 23. 
Remonstrance.  But it is false play to foist in your eldership into the Canon: for it is reliqui omnes episcopi, which is the use in our consecration of Bishops, where all the Bishops present, and in our ordination of ministers, where all the ministers present lay on hands with the Bishop.  
The 6. Demonstration or Allegation.  
When a Bishop is ordained, 
Demonstra. Cypri. li. 1. epi 4  the Bishops adjoining did ordain him.  
We grant Cyprian: 
Remonstrance.  but ordination of a minister & consecration of a bishop, neither with Cyprian nor the council are alone thing. See Conc. Carth. 4. ca 3. qualiter presbyteri ordinentur.  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Paul and Barnabas ordained Elders, 
Demonstration.  and no mention made of Eldership.  
The Answer of the Demonstrator.  
They are said to ordain, because they were chief in ordaining, as josua was said to circumcise which was the Levites office. Ios. 3. ver. 5. cap. and the Queen said to make a law, and not she alone.  
The Argument holdeth good: 
Remonstrance, with reply.  P. and B. did ordain Elders, Ergo, Elders did not ordain one another. As for the peevish interpretation: They did ordain, that is, chief ordain, as josua, it is expressly in the Text, That the Lord bid josua make sharp knives and circumcise: Ergo, by divine Oeconomie he might do it: or in the 8. ver. is a clearer construction, when they had made an end of circumcising, the Levites did circumcise: and josua commanded, but nothing is in the Text that after Paul and Barnabas had ordained, the others made an end of the action, and therefore were no parties in the beginning, middle or end of the same: for they commended them to the grace of God: so your similitude or exemplifying in neither of these doth hold. And what reason is this? josua is said to do that which he commandeth others to do. Ergo, Paul & Barnabas who commanded none others: but imposed hands themselves (as we both confess) had others to join with them: and so by this wise construction, these Churches had Elderships (of no man's calling) before they had Ministers: and if they had not had such, neither Paul nor Barnabas had been able to have ordained them any ministers, for want of their assistance.  
The 2. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Albeit then so, not so now: No more than community in the Apostles time. 
Demonstrator.   
Answer.  
There was no more community then, then now: for they are anabaptists who so think: Ergo, the instance maketh for us.  
The instance maketh little for you, 
Remonstrance, with reply  if you defend community of all: quoad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, both for propriety and use, or that a man may now say as then, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, they had all common, sold their possessions and goods, divided to all as every man had need. 2. Act. 45. verse. Neither did any man say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, aught of his goods to be his proper own: but all was common. Act. 4.32. This is right anabaptistical if you so say, that either propriety or egaltie of the use, is either common to all, or chalengeable by any now a days.  
The third Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Examples are no general rules to be followed.  
The Answer of the Demonstrator. 
Demonstrator.   
Examples not contrary to rules or reason of Scriptures are to be followed as if they were commandments.  
Yea but a general doctrine of a particular example or singular may not be concluded: 
Remonstrance, with reply.  we may not follow the examples of the Apostles and the time, which were peculiar unto them & to the time, but such as the Apostles would have us to embrace and follow. But you have for ordinations by Lay men, neither rule, reason, example, neither in Scripture nor at any time since, till at Geneva they begun it, not as an ordinance of Christ (as is now urged) but as a kind of government in Church causes, fitting that popular state. Gualther complaineth that whereas at first they of Geneva writ to them of Zuricke for advise, but whether they might plant such a government, they did after find fault with the Tigurines for not establishing the like. What is this but to make Geneva the protestants Rome, whereunto all others must conform?   

The eight Chapter.  
The Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
THE ordaining of Church officers must be by prayer of the Eldership, 
Demonstrator.  and the Congregation. Eccles. Discipl. fol. 50.  
The Demonstrator quoteth one of his fellows for this: 
Remonstrance.  as if it were Saint Paul: God wot it is a silly fellow, The Ecclesiastical discipliner. But he need not slanderour ordination as done in a corner, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Act. 26.27.  None of this (as Paul said so can we say) hath been done in a corner, they may come to the celebration of it, if they lift to come. I will truss upshorter these three waste Demonstrations.  

1 We must behave ourselves as the Apostles and Elders did. 
Demonstrator.   
2 By how much greater the action is, by so much more humble ourselves in prayer.  
3 The Eldership & the people have part of the comfort or discomfort.   
Ergo, All aught to join together in prayer.  
We confess all this, 
Remonstrance.  but bid them first prove their new form eldership must always be a party, not only of the solemnity, but of the necessity of the action.  
I observe by the way this: The Apostles and they who did ordain, joined therewith, 
Act. 13. Act. 14.  fasting and prayer, Act. 13. Act. 14. which our Demonstrator leaveth out, who otherwise are so curiously precise, in binding us to the example of primitive imitation. Belike fasting is popish, except they that fast be holden together with four or five Sermons arrow, that they cannot break their fast though they would, except they do as some jurors do, bring some what in their pockets with them.   

The ninth Chapter.  
FOr the profit of imposition of hands the Demonstrator useth three Demonstrations. 
Demonstration.   

1 That which stirreth every party to fervency must be used.  
2 That which helpeth forward the party ordained in his care.  
3 That which worketh an acknowledgement of God's ordinance in the people's hearts, must be used.   
So is the ceremony of laying on hands: Ergo, it must be used.  
The Demonstrator is busied about matter of ceremony: 
Remonstrance.  let him alone in God's name. But this ceremony that thus is used would have been better underlaide with scripture: especially where such notable effects (not only as signs) be attributed unto it, and by those that pretend the least matter, may not be admitted in Church matters, without direct proof out of Scripture.  
This maketh nothing for the new conceived Eldership of Lay Presbyters, who are to be erected forsooth to profane our holy and sacred ordination, & make it communicable with the common people. Here I observe, that to this ceremony not only a signification of a doctrine (as they therefore cavil against the sign of the cross in Baptism) but even spiritual effects are attributed, uz. to stir up Fervency in prayer, a feeling sensible of the charge spiritual laid upon the ordained, to work a care of walking in a good conscience, and to give hope of God's continual assistance in that calling. If we had said half so much, it had been making a new Sacrament, popish, and blasphemy at least: But this Chapter maketh not against us, who retain it, but those reformed churches that have left the imposition of hands in ordinations.   

The tenth Chapter.  
The Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
ONe Bishop at the least must be precedent over every congregation, 
Demonstration.  which Bishops are equal in their several charges, & in the general government of the Church.  
Out of this Assertion of one B. Precedent, are deduced two branches. 
Remonstrance.   

1 One may have but one benefice.  
2 One may not be above another: but all this serveth for their parish Bishops.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
One may not have more than he is able to discharge: No man in any measure is able to discharge more than one, 
Demonstration.  because he cannot preach in season and out of season: Ergo, none may have more charges than one.  
The whole conclusion is of negatives, if the Demonstrator will speak congruity: 
Remonstrance.  for one may not, is as much as none may have: Besides, the Medium is praedicatum in maiore subiectum in minore: But we must forgive you this misdeed, though it be not primum tempus: with you it is a common fault.  
To the Minor.  
One and the same mortar will daub your Mayor & Minor. No man may have more than he is able to discharge in some measure, per se aut vicaria fide, By himself or his sufficient deputy: as for deputation, it is lawful both in civil and Ecclesiastical functions: or make instance to the contrary. As for the reason he cannot preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, nothing is so sure as that he may preach both by word, example, and hospitality, though he do not always corporally reside. The rectory of a small village or towneship is not as the government of a whole city & territory, which did import Titus and Timothy to do their duty in season and out of season in straighter measure. Besides the Minor is false, for in good measure may one man discharge two, not far distant, & preach as shallbe sufficient at both. If you so understand in season and out of season, as if a man should preach continually, then shall not a man have any time to pray, which he is also willed to do continually: then shall there be no cause of being away allowed, no not for an hour, which yourselves find to be absurd, & therefore take as much liberty many of you, as any that hath two cures doth at either.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That which maketh an open entrance to the enemy to spoil, 
Demonstration.  cannot be lawful.  
To have more charges than one doth so: Ergo, unlawful.  
To the Minor.  
It is not the diversity of charges, for it is always Regimen animarum, 
Remonstrance.  one regiment or cure of souls, nor the having them, but the having no care of them, which is a spoil left to the enemy. A man may be absent, and yet have continual care, and leave both direction and instruction for them. I pray you who drives the devil away from your cures, when you are at Synods, at your Classies, at Terms, at parliaments, in visiting your friends in half a dozen shires?  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which is from Antichrist, is unlawful. 
Demonstration.   
To have more than one is from Antichrist: Ergo, unlawful.  
I may reason also thus, even with as great probability:  
To follow the example of S. Paul, is to follow Christ. 
Remonstrance.  To have more charges to look unto then one, is to follow S. Paul: cura omnium ecclesiarum incumbit mihi, I bear a care of all Churches: Ergo, to have more charges than one is to follow Christ. Ergo, it is not simpliciter evil to have more charges than one. For none can follow two contrary masters, Christ & Antichrist: neither is it absolutely to have more charges than one, derived from Antichrist: and therefore your Minor is false.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
That which declareth a minister to be more desirous of the fleece then to profit the flock, that is unlawful. But more charges than one is so: Ergo. 
Demonstration.   
This fallacy is non causa pro causa. 
Remonstrance.  To have more charges than one, proceedeth not from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 covetise of more, but from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficiency or competency of living, and from privilege & favour of the law. For they that preach the Gospel, must live of the Gospel: as also the Geneva note upon these words. 1. Timoth. 5.17. Qui benè praesunt presbyteri duplici honore digni sunt, that is, they must have sufficient maintenance. But that exposition is not the only meaning of the text: for double honour is something more than sufficient maintenance: the proportion is double 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Now double is more than sufficient, and honour presupposeth maintenance: or else it will be very single honour.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
He may not have more charges, 
Demonstrator.  unless he be willing to be quartered, that every charge may have a piece.  
The Demonstrator is at great cost and charges to bestow this argument: 
Remonstrance.  but I take it, that if every quarter of the City had a quarter of him that made this Demonstration, and many like to this, whatsoever came to the H. man's part, he could not boast of the least fraction, una quarta, one fourth part of an honest man.  
The 6. Demonstration or Allegation.  
Hooper upon the 8. commandment, reckoneth them among thieves, and their actions thievery, 
Demonstration.  by that commandment.  
His words are 76. pag. super 8. come.  
Such as live of spirituallty thes, 
Remonstrance.  etc. who do neglect their duty in teaching & office, commit sacrilege: he speaketh against unable men, or those who have more than competency with undesert.  
The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
One minister may not have sovereign authority and Lordship over his fellow ministers. 
Demonstration.   
The Demonstrator cannot distinguish between sovereignty, dominion, 
Remonstrance.  or entire Lordship, which is one thing, and superiority or authority over others, which are different things both in Church and Commonwealth.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
They that have their commission indifferently given them without difference, are equal, 
Demonstration.  and not one above another: But such is the commission of all Ministers. 28. Matth. 19.20. ergo, equal not one above another.  
To the Mayor.  
Although par in parem non habet imperium, 
Remonstrance.  touching the commission, yet in other respects in comparably they may be superior one unto another, as experience daily teacheth. If you were in a commission of peace, etc. with my Lord Treasurer, would you be his equal therefore, and as good as he?  
To the Minor.  
There are two commissions included in 28. Matth. One, as they were Apostles, chief builders, and planters of Churches, in which respect they had also government & authority over them, and such they also gave to bishops of places, as Timothy and Titus, whom they so ordained: Another, in that they are also Pastors, and herein every minister is their successor, as bishops only in the other respect. The one bringeth equality in the essence, & for the exercise of the ministery, the other an inequality of authority & rule, that are exercised in the Church, and must be for government and order. An instance is the very example of the Apostles, whereof some were chief pillars, chief Apostles, & james a standing superior amongst the Apostles at jerusalem, Act. 15. 2. Cor. 12. Bishops and ministers are for their ministery equal, but for order & policy of the Church in government unequal: This is both Caluins and Bezaes' answer.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That which Christ hath directly forbidden, is for ever unlawful. 
Demonstration.   
But Christ hath directly forbidden this dominion of one minister over an other, Matth. 20.25. Luc. 22.25. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
This is directly averred: for that is directly forbidden, 
Remonstrance.  which by one of the 10. commandments, or by some new commandment, or special forbade is forbidden, not that always which in the letter of the word seemeth forbidden: Else were it not lawful to swear at all, nor to call any man your father on earth, nor to preach to the Gentiles. Christ forbiddeth arrogant dominion or domination, not all authority. Absolute tyrannical dominion is forbidden among all christians. Aristot. in his politics maketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the dominion of Barbarians. To your places the answer is: Our Saviour destroyeth not there either his own primacy, or the superiority of the Apostles over other callings ecclesiastical inferior, but rather establisheth it, attempering them nevertheless to humility. He that is great, or will be great amongst you, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Let him be your servant: or as Luke 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, he that is greatest, let him be as puny, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the chiefest as he that serveth: he doth not divest himself of lawful superiority, but willeth them after his own example to be invested with humility: for he himself did not degrade himself from his supremacy, when by washing of their feet he served them.  
But because this is a matter that they do no less insist upon and applaud unto themselves in, than the papists do in their Hoc est corpus meum, I will crave leave that I may a little dilate hereupon, further than that brevity requireth which I first propounded to myself. In those two places of S. Matthew & S. Luke, are to be considered both what Christ reproved, & also the general doctrine which by that occasion he delivered. If both the stories be to be understood of one action, then must we interpret, that the contention of all the Apostles (who of them should be the greatest mentioned by Luke) had his original occasion of the request of Zebedees' children, at which the other Apostles took indignation, as Matthew testifieth: both they and all the Apostles dreamt of an earthly kingdom of Christ's: and therefore to sit at his right hand, and at his left, and to be the greatest, was an honour and civil pre-eminence and authority next unto Christ in such his kingdom that they shot at. He reproved therefore this erroneous conceit, and for thinking that civil jurisdiction should appertain to them as they were apostles, and drew them to another consideration of his heavenly kingdom. If they desired that to be given them to have the very condition & state of their persons so advanced with earthly honour & authority civil (in regard of some special affection which each of them severally supposed Christ did bear unto him) in this respect was it their ambition the was reproved. But if each of them thought such an honour due to himself by reason of some excellent qualities above others which he fancied to be in himself, than was their arrogancy and want of humility withal rebuked. And lastly, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the brawl & contention that all the apostles burst forth into about this matter, was by our Saviour taxed and blamed. Now the BB. in this church of England do not claim any civil jurisdiction or authority to be incident to their callings, although (if as citizens of the common weal & subjects) some such be imposed upon them by the prince, as they may not lawfully refuse, so (we know) they may lawdablie use it. But if either erroneously any of them should think civil jurisdiction of or under earthly princes to belong unto them as successors of the apostles, or if they seek after any authority whatsoever, ambitiously, arrogantly or contentiously, such should justly incur our saviour's censure and reproof in this place. In that by the law and customs of the land, they have the title of lords, this is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, simply in itself, in regard of their bishoprics, but by reason of the Baronries which are annexed of old unto those dignities, & yet it is but a mere title of external honour, as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the Gręcians, & Dominus with the Latins, without any authority or jurisdiction annexed. For there is never a lord in the land, either of the ecclesiastical or civil state, that hath any jot of authority or jurisdiction in him as he is a Baron. Nevertheless, the apostles and BB. their successors are not therefore without all rule & superiority: for they are termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, overseers, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, governments or governors, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, men set over others, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, rulers, guides or directors, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, feeders & rulers, which they cannot be, except they have some rule, government, & authority. But this rule and authority is but ecclesiastical, whereas that which was affected by the apostles, was civil: which ecclesiastical authority, whether it be wholly or in part condemned by that general doctrine there delivered by our Saviour, doth now rest to be considered. We are therefore in these words Vos autem non sic, it shall not be so amongst you, to note these two things: viz. unto whom such prohibition reacheth, & what rule it is which is there forbidden. First, it was not spoken to the apostles as they represented the whole Church, as may appear by the example, the Christ propoundeth to them of his own abasing of himself. Neither was it forbidden so to every one of them severally, as if it might have been permitted to them all together, or to the greater part of them: Quia nihil est in composito quod non est in simplicibus, vel actu vel saltem habitudine: If no one of them might exercise such rule nor any part of it, then cannot they altogether have it: neither yet was the prohibition personal to them, for than it would follow that albeit no one of them might have authority over the rest, yet their successors nevertheless (whether more properly taken as bishops, or generally as all ministers of the word) might have had such authority as is there forbidden, which were absurd to imagine: so that the prohibition reacheth to them all, & to every one of them, & to their successors also. The whole difficulty therefore now resteth in this, what kind of authority or rule either ecclesiastical or civil it is, which under the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, is forbidden. And because there are many resemblances between ecclesiastical & civil authority, & the exact laying forth of civil authority serveth aptly for the understanding of the other, I will distribute civil or temperal authority into his parts & differences according to Arist. & other Politicians. Authority civil or temporal (as we speak) is either economical, such as is exercised within the limits of one family: or Political over greater societies. Economical is either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, of the husband over the wife being the most moderate: Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the authority of the father over the children being more ample: or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sorts: either of the householder over such of his household as be of condition free men, and is less mild than the other two, or of the Lord over his bondmen and villains, which is most severe and absolute of all the others. Political authority is either supreme, that is, Sovereign, or else subordinate and delegated. Sovereign or supreme is either Absolute called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sorts: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, Seigneuriall, such as the good Emperors of Rome had and used, who though they had all authority in them without restraint, so that their word was a law, yet did they use it according to the rules of civil honesty & justice: or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tyrannous, where not only their will is a law, but they also use it contrary to all rules of civil honesty or justice, as the Empire of the Turks, Russes and other Barbarians: or limited by certain bounds of laws. That which is Sovereign and yet limited, is also of two kinds: either wholly limited by laws, as is the authority of ordinary chief magistrates in all free common weals, as the dukes of Venice, etc. or restrained but in part, as for the most part in all monarchies and kingdoms. For albeit kings and such sovereign monarchs are so tied to laws, as that they cannot dispose of their subjects lives, or livelihood and goods contrary to them, yet are they at liberty to allow or disallow laws to be made, to enhance or decry the price or standard of their coins, to pardon offenders condemned by law, and to make war or peace, truce or league. Those which have subordinate or delegated authority by the supreme magistrate, they may not claim nor exercise more than is allowed unto than either by commission or by law. Of all these authorities there is none (as I take it) simply unlawful, but the tyrannical government which maketh self-will a law. And therefore this both here and also by other places is simply forbidden to all Christians both in civil & ecclesiastical government. Now to apply these more nearly by the authority the bishops have in this realm, a matter so impugned by these men, It cannot be resembled unto economical (albeit in some sense a bishop is called the father of those in his charge, and the husband of that church whereof he is bishop) & that for two causes: First, in that his authority is not contained in the straits of one family, but reacheth over many several families, and congregations of people: Another, for that the bishop's authority is tied by laws, not only what not to do, but he is appointed also what to do: whereas economical authority hath no public laws positive, commanding a man how to govern his family, but only negative, what they may not do in that government, as not to wound nor kill wife, child, nor servant, etc. As for supreme authority, whether Civil, or Ecclesiastical, absolute, or limited, our bishops neither have, nor claim. It is that which they condemn in the Pope by this place, as well for that as successor of the Apostles, he claimeth both sword, & all earthly kingdoms to be his to dispose, sinon actu, saltem habitu, (as Bellarmin distinguisheth:) as for that in matters Ecclesiastical, he claimeth and usurpeth, not only Seigneuriall, but even tyrannical authority. For he saith he may judge all, and be judged by none, may carry millions of souls to hell, and none may say to him, Domine curita facis? Sir why do you so? may command Angels to carry and recarry souls at his pleasure, may pardon sins past & to come, for so long or short a time as him listeth, and in matters of Ecclesiastical livings, nay in all causes, may do what he list: and therefore is justly condemned by this place, as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one exercising a Lordly, absolute, and tyrannous authority. There resteth then unto bishops of this Realm, none other but subordinate or delegated authority, which they have partly from God, partly from the sovereign christian Magistrate. From God they have, either first to plant, or else to govern, and direct Churches already planted: to ordain ministers and deacons, and likewise the use of the keys, either by losing the penitent according to God's word, or binding the impenitent, which last is done by admonition, reprehension, suspension, excommunication, and by anathematisme. The three first of which censures, are with us even in practice common to all ministers of the word, so far as suspension is taken for debarring from the sacrament of the supper. The last two, though by all practice of antiquity in purer times they were principally and especially attributed to bishops: yet not so, but that other ministers of the word (unto which the keys are annexed,) may not unlawfully herein concur with them, if the laws of the Church (for weighty causes) do not otherwise dispose, which they have done here in England (as I take it) by reason of the sundry civil effects which excommunication and anathematisme by law do work, and are such as without great inconvenience and confusion cannot be permitted to every minister in his cure, that have but slender skill, no direction of law in this behalf, none authentic seals to certify of record, nor temporalities to be seized for not performance of the Queen's writs, that lie in such cases: as de cautione admittenda, de excommunicato deliberando, etc. And these former be the points wherein bishops authority is from God, and not of man: but now from the sovereign Prince by the mediating of laws, bishops have set down unto them the places where, the compass of territory how far, the manner how, with other circumstances of executing both the former authorities, and also their jurisdiction, Likewise they have assistance of their jurisdiction sundry ways from the Prince and laws, for the sounder execution thereof, and better bridling of offenders, as to burn an Heretic, to imprison a person obstinately remaining excommunicate above 40. days, with such like. Lastly, they have the heads and matters wherein their jurisdiction is occupied by and from the Christian Magistrates authority, in whom as supreme Governor, all jurisdiction within her dominions, aswell Ecclesiastical as Civil, by Gods and man's law is invested. Such matters in this Church of England so attributed to bishops, are causes of titles of benefices, matters of maintenance for Ministers, upholding of Churches and Churchyards, of matrimonial contracts and divorces, testamentary, diffamatory, (where there is breach of charity, and none action lieth thereupon at the Common law,) or lastly punishing of sundry crimes termed Ecclesiastical, being such as are not at all punishable at the Common law, or else are left by law to be punished by either authority. And in this respect may this part of bishoply function not untruly be said to be derived from the supreme Christian Magistrates authority and supremacy, which they have under God. By which may appear both the undutifulness of Popish Bishops, and of the factious Consistorials: the first whereof deriveth their jurisdictions Ecclesiastical within all Christian kingdoms from the Pope: and the other will needs derive theirs immediately from God, and that in larger manner and in more matters than bishops in England may any way exercise: for they of the faction attribute therein no more unto sovereign Princes, but to be governed in that behalf by them, and to defend the exercise thereof by their temporal sword: whereas our bishops cannot make any new Ecclesiastical decrees, without the Prince's authority both precedent and subsequent, and in the whole course of their function are tied strictly and precisely to observation of due course of law: which if either negligently or wilfully they shall violate, it is remediable by appellation: the last resort wherein is to the Sovereign Prince herself, who heareth and finally determineth it by her judges delegated. So that by this discourse it plainly appeareth, that our Bishops neither claim nor yet exercise any civil authority at all as Bishops, that their authority Ecclesiastical is but subordinate under God and the Prince, moderated exactly both positively and privatively by good laws, derived for the most part from the Prince, and reformable by her: Not supreme, not absolute, not tyrannical, not Seigneuriall, nor lordly, according to the Ruler's lust: And therefore no way touched or meant, much less by these places condemned, as the Demonstrators Assumption more boldly then either skilfully or truly importeth. But out of these grounds thus we reason, and bend the nose of the Cannon against themselves.  
If the bishop's authority be condemned by these two places, as they would infer, then is all greater and more absolute authority exercised by persons Ecclesiastical, much more to be condemned: But yourselves do claim and exercise greater and more absolute authority than the bishops: namely to have your consistorial jurisdiction not derived from the Prince's authority, but supreme under God, and that in all causes of doctrine, or manners, so far as appertaineth to conscience, to make laws and orders Ecclesiastical, without her knowledge or consent, to sit and determine as yourselves judge best, without any guiding of laws, to have your sentences once given to stand in force (though they be appealed from) until they be in the last instance reversed, to excommunicate your Sovereign, & consequently to discharge yourselves for that time of all actual obedience, to call your Synods and Classies without her writ, and to have the last appellation not to run unto the Prince, but unto a national Synod. All which being true notes of sovereignty in jurisdiction, are at least, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lordly or Seigneuriall, if not tyrannical: ergo, that which is by you claimed and exercised, is in deed by Christ there condemned. Neither is it the bare civil title of Lord, which is given to bishops, without any authority in that respect, that will help you against us here: for the Scripture giveth not laws to words, but to the matters themselves. Yours is Lordlines in deed, when you both practise these things against her majesties royal supremacy, and will have her to throw her sceptre down, and to lick the dust of the feet of your Church, viz. your Presbytery, an epitome or representation of every several Congregation or Church.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
They that may not be Lords over God's people, much less may be Lords over the ministers, 
Demonstration.  who are above the people: but the first is true, ergo, the second.  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor with a little more help will make themselves Lords. 
Remonstrance.  For I do assure you this, no Bishop is Lord over the people, but a Lord in respect of his own Baronrie. It is more to be above the people in deed, then to be a Lord unto the people in phrase of speech, or obsequious word. Now forsooth the Ministers are above the people, that is, their betters, and in authority over them, as this Mayor doth import.  
To the Minor.  
Lordlines is one thing, in malam partem: Lordship is another. S. Peter (say you) forbiddeth it. 1. Pet. 5.3. (on whom you say we father Lordlines) to be Lords of God's heritage, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Nay Peter writeth to the bishops, or governing pastoral Elders, such as himself: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I a fellow elder, not to tyrannize over the flock, but to be example to the faithful. The place of Peter and your collection, maketh against yourselves, 
Retortion.  To say ministers may have dominion over the people, but Ministers may not have dominion over ministers: that is, Ministers may rule, and not be ruled. The drift of the place is, Ministers may not tyrannize or have absolute command over the people, or over one another. I refer me to the answer made to the second demonstration of this matter.  
The 4. Allegation or Demonstration.  
It is ordained that every man's fault must be heard, 
Demonstra. Cypr. lib. 1. epi. 3. Remonstrance.  where the accusers and witnesses are: ergo, every Minister had authority over his flock.  
The Illative is, ergo, every bishop hath his limited proper jurisdiction. Cyprian complained thus: Paucis desperatis minor videtur esse authoritas episcoporum in Africa. Certain desperate companions thought worse of the bishop's authority in Africa, then else where. He found fault with those that went to Rome out of the province, not for going out of the Parish with the cause, as you insinuate.  
The 5. Allegation.  
Bishops in all the world are equal to Parish ministers: 
Demonstrat. Luth. adver. Papat. à Satana fundat. Remonstrance.  some are of better gifts, which gifts cause no Lordship.  
Luther confuteth the supremacy of the bishop of Rome: Papam non esse caput christianitatis, & Dominum mundi: And that all bishops whether of Eugub. or Rome, Rheg. or Constantinople, Alexand. Tavis, are equal for the ministery and heirs of the See Apostolic.  
The 6. Allegation.  
The Ministers in the Apostolic Church none above other, 
Demonstrat. Muscu. ●e come. de verbi minist.  were subject to no Head nor Precedent.  
That is, no universal Head: otherwise Musculus upon the 20. 
Remonstrance.  of Matth. alloweth Governors, Precedents, Rulers in the church.  
The 7. Allegation.  
A Bishop taking the honour from the Ministers, 
Demonstra. Idem super 2. Thess 8.2.  was the first step to Papacy.  
That is, translated from them to erect a new ministery, 
Remonstrance.  or an illimitable authority in the Church, which a bishopric under the Gospel is not, neither of the 7. steps to Papacy.  
The 8. Allegation.  
Christ did forbid the Apostles primacy and dominion. 
Demonstraet, Confess. Holuet.   
That is absolute, worldly, avaricious, ambitious dominion, 
Remonstrance.  not all moderate government and authority whatsoever. 
Remonstrance.   
The 9 Allegation.  
Equal power is given to all Ministers, saving for order. 
Demonstrat. Confe Hel. c. 18.   
Order includeth superiority, and excludeth not dignity. 
Remonstr.   
Nullus dominium in episcopos usurpavit.  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Christ 20. 
Demonstration.  Matth. 25. v. forbiddeth ambition, and not dominion, as Musculus doth expound.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
Caluine and others, expound it against superiority: but admit that dominion is ambition, because it causeth a man to aspire above his fellow Ministers.  
There is no wit in this misshapen answer: 
Remonstrance with reply.  the objection doth not permit so much unto you: dominion in the better part taken for rule, is most contrarying to ambition. It must be unjust dominion that causeth ambition, as to conspire against his superior, and to aspire to an higher place, or seat: your factious study may be called ambition.  
The 2. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
The Greek word signifieth rule with oppression, 
Demonstration.  which is forbidden.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
That is not so. Luke 22.25. v. useth the single verb to rule: the sons of Zebedee desired not to oppress, but to rule.  
It is certain, 
Remonstrance with reply.  one place must expound the other: the tenor of the text expoundeth all. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one and consignificant terms, which is absolutely, tyrannously, or ambitiously to govern and rule, or violently to rule and overrule: or else an absurd interpretation will follow of the word, 19 Act. 16. v. 
19 Act. 16. v.  The man in whom the ill spirit was, ran upon the vagabond jews, and overcame them and prevailed. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had violent dominion and mastery over them: or 1. Pet. 5.3. v. not as exercising a proud dominion over the lords heritage. If the word signify not so, S. Peter should forewarn them of that which yourselves say is no fault: therefore it is as clear as noon day, the children of Zebedee, and the Apostles were schooled for that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contentious, and ambitious desire of ruling, and that civilly and absolutely.  
The 3. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Christ saith not, No man shall be so: but he that will be so, desiring it.  
Answer of the Demonstrator. 
Demonstra.   
Luke saith, Let the greatest be your servant, ergo, that is a shift.  
Though our Saviour say, 
Remonstrance with reply.  Vos autem non sic, and in Luke, Let him be your servant: the one doth repress the humour of ambition, the other clause doth express Christian humility: Christ was as their servant, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet had he superior authority over them.  
Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
A Bishop should be resident in every Congregation. 
Demonstration.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
If a Bishop and a Minister be all one, then must there be a bishop in every Congregation: but they are one, for S. Paul describeth them and their qualities all one, ergo,  
The Antecedent I admit, 
Remonstrance.  if they be simply and absolutely all one.  
To the Assumption.  
We will not deny but the words Episcopus, Presbyter, Minister, Pastor, may notify all one thing, or sometimes taken for all one, in describing one and the same thing improperly taken. But in their more proper acceptance, a bishop and a Presbyter must signify distinct things, both in office and in dignity. This is a flat equivocation, to say Presbyter or pastoral elder, signifieth principally an inferior minister, ergo, it must notify as properly and principally a bishop, and a minister. As for your witty reason, the bishop and minister have one quality, ergo, are one thing, although I might answer you, some of those qualities are not of pure necessity affixed to the bishop or minister, as to be the husband of one wife: yet your answer shall be, all these are not formal accidents, and do not properly distinguish. As for the qualities of yemind, they make not special difference of offices in the Church. It followeth not, because they were a while in the foundation of the Church all one, that therefore they do still in all respects continue all one, being changed even in the Apostles times. But thus we retort:  
If Presbyter and Episcopus be all one, than he that is not episcopus cannot be termed Presbyter: idem numero sunt maximè idem, & convertuntur: but your Lay elders are not episcopi, ergo, they are not Presbyteri, no Elders at all, nor so to be termed.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
S. Paul's Bishops and Deacons were appointed for one place: 
Demonstration.  S. Paul's Deacons were in every Congregation, Philip. 1. Act. 6.2. and continued longer than the Bishops, Athan. 2. Apolog. Hierom. cont. Lucifer. ergo, there ought to be a Bishop in every Congregation.  
Unless you mean place to be a Congregation in the Mayor, there are 4. termini in the whole Syllogism. 
Remonstrance.   
To the parts.  
S. Paul's Bishops and Deacons, etc.  
This is a false copulative, and maketh a fallacy of things that are separated true, not conjoined true, by fallacious composition. The multiplicity of the meaning breedeth equivocation as before: viz. a bishop which is an overseer of the flock, whom we call Presbyter, or Pastor, or Priest: and the Deacons are for one Congregation: And a bishop who is above a Pastor or Priest, must be but over one Congregation: the former is true, the later is false. Episcopus is a word, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations. S. Paul's bishop is in both significations.  
To the Minor.  
The Apostles did the office of Deacons for a time.  
That they continued longer than Paul's bishops, it is false, sith the equity of the offices continueth still: whether you take them for inferior ministers, or distributers to the poor, they have never discontinued.  
Unto the place of Athanasius and Hierom, which you do not cite, but aim to every way and no way, I have nothing to say but this: Athanasius in the 2. Apolog. defuga sua, hath written nothing to countenance your assertion: you do the better to quote nothing. And for Hierome, there he doth prove, that Deacons and Priests in that Church did baptise, being authorized from the bishops, who gave an imposition of hands, or confirmation after they had baptised.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which Paul commanded Titus, 
Demonstration.  is to be practised in like case: But he commanded him to ordain Elders, which is Bishops, Tit. 1.5. ergo, they must be in every place.  
This is strange to refort to this place of Titus, which maketh for superiority, 
Remonstrance.  and against equality of ministers.  
To the Minor.  
Elders: all pastoral Elders, are in generality of signification bishops, that is, overseers: all bishops are not inferior pastoral Elders. The answer is before: the word Episcopus and Presbyter are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations.  
The 4. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Every Church should have her communion table and bishop. 
Demonstr. Ignat. ad Philodelph. epist.   
None better than Ignatius distinguisheth the orders.  
His meaning is of an overseeing Pastor, 
Remonstrance.  or where it is expedient to have a chief bishop. This allegation is answered, cap. 13.  
The 5. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Where any was found worthy to be a Bishop, there they appointed a Bishop: 
Demonstration.  where there was not to furnish a bishop and an elder, he meaneth the Doctor, there the Apostles made the bishop, and left the Elder.  
How injurious is the Demonstrator to Epiphanius, 
Remonstrance.  who disputeth against Aerius heresy? Erat sermo Aerij furiosus magis quàm humanae conditionis: quid est episcopus ad Presbyterum? unus or do, unus honour, una dignitas. It was Aerius reasonless or furious, rather than reasonable manner of speech. What is a bishop better than a pastoral elder or priest? there is but one order of both, like honour, both one dignity. With what face can he produce Epiphanius for equality? who saith a bishop cannot rebuke an elder, but because he hath authority over him?  
Now for Epiphanius, his words are otherwise, and the Demonstrator either oblivious, or never read Epiphanius. Cum autem multitudo non esset non inventi sunt inter eos qui presbyteri constituerentur, had not the supply of many priests or pastoral elders. They were contented only with a bishop, until they might have complete number of such elders, over whom the bishop carried his superior hand of authority. Finally, Epiphanius did not so much as dream of this elder to be there an ordinary Doctor, sith Presbyter with him is but an inferior Pastor.  
What chameleon with changeable colours is our Demonstrator? An elder in this new tetrarchy sometimes is a parish bishop, elsewhere an Alderman governing his ward, other times a grave and profound Doctor: all which to swear with them, Epiphanius must be forced.  
The 6. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstr. 2. Conc. Carth. 1. Tom. ca 10.   
If a bishop run into slander, and many bishops cannot suddenly be gathered, the cause must be heard of 12. bishops.  
You may be ashamed to allege that Council to confirm your parish bishops, 
Remonstrance.  which distinctly setteth down the authority of Metropolitan & dicecesan bishops, as also of Presbyter and bishop in the same canon.  
The 7. 
Demonstr. 3. Conc. Carth.  Allegation or Demonstration.  
If an elder be accused, he may call 6. bishops from the place hard by.  
These are fractions and not distinct demonstrations. 
Remonstrance.   
Your allegation hath an answer before. The paucity or fewness of our BB. doth not make against the multitude of theirs, & therefore this demonstration serveth you to no use.  
The 8. 
Demonstr. Euseb. li. 5. ca 16 Socrates 4.26. Quest. 16. dist. 50. Theod. li. 5. c. 4.  Allegation or Demonstration.  
Stories make mention of one Sotichus bishop of village of Cuman.  
Of one Mares of Solicha.  
Gregory of Nazianzum a small City.  
Bishop of a castle.  
The town or place of their See might be little, their jurisdiction great: 
Remonstrance.  I know not whether it be your or your Printers fault: Theodoret remembreth one Mares of Dolicha: as for the bishop of Solicha and the bishopric of that, God send all the pack of you no better bishoprics. Dorchester was once the bishops See of Lincoln, Shirburne of Sarum, Selsey of Cicester, Thetford of Norwich, Cridie of Excester, etc. yet the jurisdictions and dicecesses as large as now, and some of them much larger.  
The 9 Allegation.  
A minister, 
Demonstr. Hier. ad evagr. super Titum ad Oceanum.  that is to say a bishop.  
A minister and a bishop all one to Titus.  
With the ancient fathers, bishops and ministers all one.  
I must remember you what is said also in the same place, 
Remonstrance.  Presbyter & episcopus aliud aetatis, aliud dignitatis: Non dico de presbyteris, non de inferiori gradu: ad episcopos venio. Priest, a name of age: Bishop, of dignity and office: Priest, an inferior degree: other where priests supply the Apostles place, the bishop supplieth Christ's place. Be your own remembrancer in the epistle to Oceanus: the drift of Hierome is to show a difference & odds between Deacon and Priest, because of certain who made the Deacon equal to the Priest, and yet for all that always the pre-eminence of the bishop before the Priest. Nam Alexandria à Marco evangelista, usque ad Heracliam & Dionysium episcopos presbyteri semper unum ex se electum in superiori gradu collocatum, episcopum nominabant. Even from Mark the Evangelist downward to his time, the bishop of Alexandria had a superior degree above the pastoral elders.  
The 10. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstr. D. Barns Acts & Monum. fol. 216. in the 6. art.   
I will never believe one can be bishop over two or three cities, or a whole country by the law of God.  
I know not whether he saith so or no: but if he have read and remembered that Titus was bishop of Candie, Ignatius of Syria, 
Remonstrance.  with infinite more out of the Fathers and Councils, he would be of another belief. Many things slipped such men upon hatred to popish bishops.  
The 11. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstr. Hooper super 8. comm. pa. 90.   
The office of a bishop is degenerate: In the primitive Church they had no bishops as we have.  
He speaketh of bishops under the Popedom, 
Remonstrance.  or else the speech might very well be spared: his words are, If the fourth part remain to the bishop, a third part to the teachers, two parts to the poor, one part to the soldiers, it were better bestowed, etc. then it is bestowed now. None of our bishops have a fourth part upon the division of all the ecclesiastical revenues of his dioeces, and therefore no cause herein to assign a fault in the division. But if there might be (as bishop Hooper thought) a more equal division, what is this to prove a bishop's authority in every Pastor of a parish?   

The eleventh Chapter.  
Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
THere must be Doctors in the Church, 
Demonstration.  which is an office different from a Pastor.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
That which the Apostles do distinguish, are distinct: but the Apostles distinguish Doctors from Pastors, 12. Rom. 7. Eph. 4.11. v. as he doth distinguish man from woman, Gal. 3.28. v. Ergo,  
To the Minor.  
The Apostle maketh distinguishment of gifts, 
Remonstrance.  not of offices in the first two places: albeit distinct gifts and offices, yet coincident in one. The Apostles did exhort, they did teach, Acts 2. Peter, and Acts 7. Steven. Paul a Doctor, and yet spoke the word of exhortation. Of every action or quality groweth not a separable office and function perpetual in the Church.  
There are certain who must distribute, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  show mercy, prophesy, gainsay, and stop the mouths of the gainsaier: ergo, there are several and set offices & officers, so many in number as are qualities numbered. But the Demonstrator saith, distinguished as man and woman, Gal. 3. v. 28. S. Paul maketh no distinguishment but a combination or connexion of all in Christ: he saith not there is bond, there is free, male and female, but neither male nor female, etc.  
The Demonstrator had this objection for the acception of a copulative in that place to the Galathians, out of the Fenny water of the Country-poison, but the good soul understood it not. The meaning was, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the copulative maketh a distinction between Doctor and Pastor, Eph. 4. as it doth Gal. 3. distinguish between male and female. But how like those two places are the one to the other, to make any such show, I would those that have but a smack of Greek or of any judgement, would consider.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
As the gifts are divers, 
Demonstration.  so the offices: but the gifts of Doctor and Pastor are divers, 1. Cor. 12. as also experience teacheth: Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
divers gifts make not divers offices: 
Remonstrance.  many gifts go to one faculty, science, office: gift of memory, subtlety to penetrate between the cause and the effect: judgement, action, elocution to an Orator. One man may be better able to divide his text, another to persuade, and yet an office of a preacher.  
To the Minor.  
Though they be sundry gifts, yet are they not sundered into several offices: Apollo's was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eloquent and yet full of forcible persuasion, Act. 18. but you could not have a more probable place against the making of the Pastor and Doctor, two several offices, than this of the 1. Cor. 12. for the same officers are here reckoned up that are in the 4. to the Ephesians, and yet no mention here of Pastors, but only Doctors, which argueth that under the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Doctors, Pastors be also contained: for else were the division unperfect, and the Doctor might better than the Pastor have been omitted: whom you make not so necessary as Pastor.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
They who are to take a diverse course, are diverse. The Pastor is to exhort, 
Demonstration.  the Doctor to attend doctrine. ergo:  
To the Mayor.  
The Logician in his method goeth up ab ultimo ad primum: 
Remonstrance.  other times cometh down à primo ad ultimum, in the same predicament, ergo, by your demonstration a Logician is simply diverse from himself.  
The Galenist distributeth the whole into parts: 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  at other times collecteth the parts to make the whole: ergo, a Galenist or a physician absolutely differeth from himself. Or,  
This man is to run up the hill, the other to run down: Ergo, this man differeth from the other as a man.  
To the Mayor.  
Paul biddeth Timothy attend to reading and doctrine. 1. Tim. 4. Ergo, by the Demonstrator he forbiddeth him to use exhortation in the course of preaching: being the very word which he putteth betwixt reading and doctrine: so that he both exhorted and taught. Nay how can a man exhort to a thing without doctrine precedent? Can a man feed and teach not? or teach and feed not? Is not doctrine the food of the soul? The one affecteth the intellectual mind, the other, the will. Besides, where doth he find in Scripture, that he must be called Pastor that exhorteth, and he Doctor that teacheth, and that one man may not take both courses? I tell you we allow not the absurd Sermon upon the 12. Rom. for Scripture.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
Ecclesiastical stories speaking of the church of Alexandria, 
Demonstration.  that there were Doctors and Bishops, make the usual difference.  
The difference is of Catechists, as Origene, 
Remonstrance.  and after him Heraclius at Alexandria: Cyrill at Jerusalem: Deo gratias at Carthage from Bishops. But what letted them from exhortation or application of doctrine? And Catechists that do but teach rudiments, are far from the perfection and soundness of learning, of him that shall deserve the office of a Doctor.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
Cathedral Churches have one to read a Lecture: 
Demonstration.  Ergo, a manifest separation of Doctor from Pastor.  
The Lecturer neither is nor aught to be barred from the life of exhortation, 
Remonstrance.  no more than your own pastors are barred from delivering doctrine. But they are not two full hereof, and make necessity not so much a virtue, as the severalty of office a vain pretence.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
If the distinguishing of them make more for the building of the Church, 
Demonstration.  than the uniting of them, than ought they to be distinguished. First is true: Ergo, the second.  
The antecedent standeth upon a false supposal: 
Remonstrance.  for to use a Doctorship or explication without the lively application, is to make a body not organized with a soul: Corpus inane animae, such cold speculation is best for such cold prophets or Doctors of Utopia. The consequence is also false: for it would make more for the building of the Church, to have a several expounder of every several book of the Bible, if such might be had: and yet you may not make up so many distinct Church officers, as there be books in the Bible.  
To the Assumption.  
It is less credit for a man to deliver the writing, and not the seal: he that delivereth the word of the doctrine, may be vouchsafed to deliver the Sacrament and seal of the same: And he that propoundeth the verity of a doctrine, may with persuasion urge the efficacy and use of the same, both exhort and comfort: it is the sole and sound way of edification of God's people. The ancient fathers are of opinion that they signify not divers offices, but divers acts of one man, and are therefore joined with the copulative, Ephe. 4. It is but a new devise among yourselves to require them as a necessary office in every Church to countenance out Travers, Fenner, and such like Doctors, who nevertheless stood more upon exhortation & dehortation then upon doctrine. The first admonition nor second, the French discipline, the Gernsey, the Scottish require them not necessarily, neither are they of the Consistory or Eldership in France. Beza at Geneva is both Pastor and Doctor.   

The twelfth Chapter.  
The Assertion.  
THere aught to be Elders in every congregation.  
The 1. Demonstration. 
Demonstration.   
That which the Apostles established, aught to continue in every congregation: The Apostles established elders Act. 14.23. not preaching elders, because of scarcity: Paul sent Titus and Timothy to great cities: Ergo, governing Elders.  
To the Minor.  
Because the Mayor is so often answered, 
Remonstrance.  I answer to the Minor, that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this place must signify preaching Elders, not unpreaching prelate's or governors, which their own reason persuadeth unto: for if there were scarcity of doctrine, scarcity of discipline was greater far: If seeds of doctrine did not plenteously grow, to what end served the hedge or wall of discipline? It is preposterous in course: holy manners before holy faith: before a conversion a religious and sanctified conversation: many elders before many teachers of the word. This is violence offered to the Text by the Demonstrator: who ever before these men interpreted that place of unpreaching lay Elders? Nay himself and all the rest use it as the only chief place to prove ministers elections by the people.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
The helpers in the building must be in every congregation: 
Demonstra.  But Christ hath ordained helpers. 1. Cor. 12.28. Ergo, Elders.  
To the Minor.  
Whether ye mean 1. Cor. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 helpers, 
Remonstrance.  or gonernours, it is too general to restrain to unpreaching Elders. Those words may concern all ordinary and extraordinary Christian Magistrates and ministers, and nothing helpeth to introduce elders. There is never an office mentioned in Scripture, but your elders will have a snatch at it rather than sit out, as they are like from any patrociny thence.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which wanting, the body cannot be entire, must be in every congregation: 
Demonstra.  But the Elders cannot be wanting, and the Church entire. Rom. 12. Ergo:  
I will syllogise after this manner: 
Remonstrance.   
That which superaboundeth, the body may lack: The Elders are ex superabundanti: Ergo, they may lack.  
To the Minor.  
Either Bishops, or Deacons, or the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 governors or Presbyters import the Elders: Not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for all such may minister the word and sacraments, and also preach: Not Presbyteri, such are feeding and pastoral elders: nor the Deacons, for they are underneath and inferior unto them: nor Bishops, for they are Precedents and overseers over all, and are superior pastors: Ergo, the elders are a superfluity, and an excremencie to be pared and cut away, and are ex superabundanti to the Church & may very well be wanting. As for the place Rom. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that governeth in diligence, concerneth all governors Ecclesiastical and civil.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
If the word hath described the Elders, 
Demonstration.  than they must be: But the word hath described. 1. Tim. 5.17. Ergo:  
There is not so much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, any colourable description of Elders in these words: 
Remonstrance.  The place giveth commendation and great maintenance to all pastoral elders, that govern their flocks well, but honourable commendation of those, who with earnestness labour in the word. So, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth: your elders have not any maintenance of your Churches, but live of their crafts and trades: and therefore yours cannot be there meant, which is spoken specially to establish large maintenance by the Church toward the Elders there understood.  
The 5. Demonstration or Allegation.  
There is no Church which can stand without their Eldership or Council. 
Demonstration. Ign. ad Tral. ep.   
The words are: 
Remonstrance.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉  
That is, the Elders, or Ministers, or Pastoral elders are a senate or fellowship of the Apostles of Christ: without it there is no Congregation holy or sacred, nor synod of saints: and so say we. But this is a great distance from your Laical Eldership: this is our holy and sacred Convocation or Chapterhouse, or whatsoever Ecclesiastical assembly and meeting. It appeareth by sundry places of Ignatius, that the Presbyteri he speaketh of, did preach and minister the Sacraments: Ergo, he meaneth not of yours. These whom he meaneth (he saith) are successors of the Apostles, which hitherto I have not heard any of you challenge for your Elders that be Lay men.  
The 6. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstration. Tertul. de bape.   
It belongeth only to the Bishop to baptize, and to the Elder and Deacon upon the Bishop's licence.  
I would to God you would as well do after this golden sentence of Tertull. as you can memoratively recite the same: 
Remonstrance.  the sense and sentence maketh all for us. Dandi habet ius summus sacerdos, id est, Episcopus, dehinc presbyteri & diaconi, non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate propter eeclesiae honorem, quo saluo salva pax est: As the Bishop is a superior minister or priest, so Presbyter an inferior minister or priest: for your elders you may go seek, for you permit neither your elder nor deacon to baptise.  
The 7. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstra. jeron. con. Lucife.   
Neither elder nor Deacon have right, but upon commandment of the Bishop, so much as to baptise.  
The words: Ind venit ut sine Chrismate & Episcopi iussione neque presbyter, neque diaconus ius habeant baptizandi. That is, 
Remonstrance.  pastoral elder or priest: the words immediately antecedent speak of the authority of the Bishop or chief priest, who doth authorize other priests: ut enim accepit quis, ita & dare potest. He speaketh of Chrism aswell as of the Bishop's licence, alluding to a particular custom: this cannot serve your turns, for you hold that no Bishop may debar you of licence to preach or use your ministry, & your elders and deacons may not minister the sacraments, though they were licensed, as yourselves think.  
The 8. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Elders fell away upon the ambition of the Teachers. 
Demonstra. Amb. 1. Tim. 5.   
Ambrose saith, Synagoga & postea ecclesia seniores habuit. 
Remonstrance. Ambrose saith that state of the church for all that was tolerable.  Both the Synagogue and afterward the Church had Elders or Seniors before any Christian magistrate had the pre-eminence in the Church, but no such elders as you do platform. For these gave but counsel, yours do absolutely govern, ordain, censure, and all things, saving preaching and ministering Sacraments.  
The 9 Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstra. Possidon. in vita August.   
Valerius the Bishop did contrary to the Apostolical custom, in appointing Augustine to preach being an elder.  
The words are: 
Remonstrance.  contrausum & consuetudinem ecclesiarum Aphricanarum, against the use and custom of the Aphrican churches, not of the Oriental Churches, where the use was so: A custom particular misliked also by many of the fathers, you would make Apostolical and general.  
The 10. Allegation or Demonstration.  
After Arrius was convict of heresy, 
Demonstrat. Socr. li. 5. ca 22.  Elders might not preach: it was so decreed.  
Caluins' quotation is lib. 9 Socrat. tripartitae historiae, 
Remonstrance.  Alexandria tantùm institutum fuit: whence you borrow this: only at Alexandria this was ordained, because Arrius had troubled the Church there. Is not this curtalling of places an evident sign of the evil conscience you have, if you know it: or of ignorance (joined with boldness) if you know it not, and yet allege it?  
The 11. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstrat. Bucer de reg. Chri. lib. 1.   
The number of Elders of every Church must be increased according to the multitude of the people.  
Bucer by the words lib. 1. cap. 8. speaketh of Curatorum ecclesiae & seniorum, 
Remonstrance.  that is pastoral elders, as the marginal note understandeth the Ministers: Ministros ecclesiae sarcire oportere quicquid fuerit neglectum.  
The 12. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Martyr 12. Rom. lamenteth that they were fallen out of the Church, 
Demonstration.  that the name scant remaineth.  
Martyr citeth S. Ambrose complaint of the want or defect of certain Elders for advise, 
Remonstrance.  who were for a time in some Church, the Magistrate being unchristian: but you find not that they were called Presbyteri, as signifying an office, which title you give to yours, and the places where Presbyteri be named, you apply to them.  
The 13. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Certain of the people were joined with the Pastor in Church-government. 
Demonstration. Idem 12. Co. 1.   
Even so at this day: 
Remonstran.  in every parish are the like assistants, to gather and employ the alms of the Church and for other provisions: The Puritans know not their own Church, or common wealth, and yet the meaning is but of Churches in great cities and Cathedral.  
The 14. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demostran. Caluin. instit. li. 4. cap. 3. sect. 8.   
There were Elders in the Church.  
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He said it, is no necessary Demonstration to prove it: 
Remonstrance.  he can never prove that they had jurisdiction, or aught to have of censures, of ordinations, of law making, and all other government: or that they were Lay men, and had no maintenance by the Church, or that they were annual or biennall officers, as the Consistorials do now preach.  
The 15. Allegation or Demonstration.  
D. Whitgift pag. 638. confesseth there were Elders. 
Demonstr.   
Some were Seniors as Ambrose speaketh of in the Church before any Christian magistrate was pro tempore, 
Remonstrance.  for a stay & good advise in the Church: but none of this medley of perpetuity, and with such government and authority as is now plaited.  
The 16 Allegation or Demonstration.  
If the platform to Timothy be for all Churches, 
Demonstration.  then must Elders be in al. 1. Timoth. 6.14. But the first is true: Ergo, the second.  
This is answered before cap. 1. not to concern any policy of Elders: 
Remonstrance.  but to keep the general commandment of the law of the spirit of life: they might as well say that the commandment to drink no water were meant by that place. The holy ghost hath there warily used the singular number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which now you would make to pertain to the perpetuity of every thing contained in that Epistle: if it did so, yet could it not help you, for there is no such commandment for any such Elders in that whole Epistle, no nor any mention by the way of them.  
The 17. Demonstration.  
That which is in every minister's commission, must be in every congregation: 
Demonstration.  But the ordination and practice of this office, Mat. 28.20. is so, or else they ordained elders without warrant from Christ. Ergo they must be in every congregation.  
Ex nihilo nihil fit, Of nothing cometh nothing. 
Remonstrance.  This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a great space between these two: go, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make Disciples or teach all nations: Ergo, make unpreaching Presbyters in all nations: This the Demonstrationer made the Minister's Commission afore, and is it now the Commission for unteaching Elders to be ordained in every place? The reason of the Minor is false: for neither made they any such Elders in every congregation, neither doth their authority for ordinations and sundry other points of Church-gourernment depend only upon that Commission, which respected the ministry of the word and Sacraments.  
The 18. Demonstration.  
Where a Bishop must be, 
Demonstration.  Elders must be: A Bishop must be in every Congregation: Ergo, Elders.  
This Demonstration is no guest but an ordinary servant: 
Remonstrance.  for this serveth your turn often: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The one of these is no better known then the other: there must be parish Bishops: Ergo, parish elders. And it followeth not by any coherence any more than this: There must be a Constable in every town, Ergo, 24. Aldermen.  
The 19 Demonstration.  
If the Apostles established one uniform order in all Churches, 
Demonstration.  than there must be Elders in every congregation: but the first is true: Ergo, the second. For S. Paul saith thus: I teach in all Congregations.  
To the Antecedent.  
This is the fallacy of consequence. 
Remonstrance.   
The Apostles did 'stablish uniformity for essential points of discipline, but left not any policy for Lay elders. The consecution of the mayor is false: Can there be none uniformity, except such your Elders were every where appointed, who indeed were nowhere?  
To the Assumption.  
S. Paul might very well leave all points of wholesome doctrine, all good order for the Church, but never institute the particularities of your discipline.  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
God hath given sovereign authority over the Church to Christian Magistrates, 
Demonstration.  which these Elders would abridge.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
No more than the eldership in David's time, did abridge David's sovereignty over all Israel: for his government is temporal, theirs is spiritual.  
O foolish answer, 
Remonstrance.  and fond conceit of an imaginable Elderdership in David's time? who can abide this? Master Elders have spiritual government, but Kings and Queens (nursing fathers and mothers of the Church) have but civil and temporal government only: o tempora, o mores: or as the learned discourse saith, The prince is but a feeling member of the church: the heads and chief governors are the ecclesiastical Aldermen or presbytery of the Church. That yours abridge the Queen's sovereignty, is a little touched afore, and shall more plainly be showed when you are at leisure to hear.  
The 2. Objection of the Demonstrator. 
Demonstration.   
Gualt. 1. Cor. 5. denieth the presbytery to be needful under a christian magistrate.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
Gualther denieth excommunication to be lawful under a Christian magistrate: He is as partial as D. Whitgift.  
It may be Gualther and others may deny it to be of the essence of a Church, or rash excommunication, 
Remonstrance with reply.  (than the which nothing is more anabaptistical) or where hope of repentance is: he is not partial, nor he that taketh part in a good cause. As for Gualters' opinion, if he utterly deny excommunication: 
Pro Coelio.  Nolo cuiusquam fortis, & illustris viri, vel minimum erratum cum maxima laud coniungere: But it is untrue to say, he simply denieth it: or if he did err herein, doth he therefore err in the other? But if you can so soon shake off Gualther in this point, for his errout (as you fancy) in the other, then may we also reject Caluin in a matter whereof he was first father, for his error against the lawful supremacy of Christian princes in causes ecclesiastical.  
The 3. Objection of the Demonstrator. 
Demonstration.   
The Prince hath the authority which the Elders had.  
Answer.  
That is no truer than to say, the Prince hath authority to preach, which he must see done.  
The Eldership (you say) may make ecclesiastical laws, 
Remonstrance with reply.  may censure and excommunicate. In taking these from the Prince to be done by her Delegates, do you not deny her Supremacy? as for any ordaining, she may even as well as your Eldership do it: but God forbidden she should claim it, as they very absurdly do.  
HIErgo, by this gross position the prince must wait in every place to see the elderships their duties done: but it is certain, Ex quolibet sequitur quidlibet, in maintaining this imagination, as for the Prince to see it done by your Elderships, is a servility and no sovereignty, especially when you say, and T.C. before you, that the princes must subject themselves, and submit their sceptres, and throw down their crowns before the Church: and for the Church you roundly interpret the Presbytery. 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  Prince's must lieprostrate to the Presbytery. And if your Elderships in deed have this authority by their right in causes ecclesiastical, which the Prince must but see done, then do not they slander you which say you give to the Prince potestatem facti non juris, and so yield her just as large a supremacy as the Papists do.  
Demonstrations to prove the eldership necessary under Christian princes, as in the Apostles time.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
The less able the ministers are to direct in godliness, 
Demonstration.  the more need they have of Elders: but ministers now under Christian magistrates are less able by reason of ease and peace. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
Nay the more need they have of preachers and labourers in the harvest, 
Remonstrance.  the more need of discreet overseers, not those pragmatical busy-body elders.  
To the Minor.  
Do not say that Solomon forbiddeth you say: the days are worse now rather than the days of old, for that were a foolish thing: Our days are blessed days, bless God for them: This fallacy is secundùm non causam ut causam. The judges and justices are less able to execute the laws at full by reason of men's insolency and custom of offences: 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  Ergo, shall it follow that the Parliament must erect some other new kind of magistracy? The consequency is, Ergo they must execute the laws with more severity. If the ministers be not able to direct in godliness, it is but a poor help they are like to have of your Elders for such direction.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
If Christian magistrates must maintain the order set down by 1. Cor. 12.8. 
Demonstration.  v. then Elders must be under a Christian magistrate: but they are etc. Ergo: 49. Esai 23.  
You have been answered and reanswered again for that allegation of text 1. Cor. 12.8. v. 
Remonstrance.  that you have no advantage for your elders to be deduced from that text: but see see how the elder would obtain the title of a Christian magistrate.  
As for the argument out of Esai 49. ca 23. v. Kings & Queens they shall worship thee with their faces towards the earth, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrat.  Ergo great homage belike shallbe done to the eldership, the rather because it shroudeth itself under the appellation of a Christian magistrate.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
If the rule of Christ Dic Ecclesiae cannot be observed without elders, 
Demonstration.  then may they be under a Christian magistrate: but the former is true Ergo the latter.  
To the Assumption.  
By the Church is meant the Senate of ministers and elders, 
Remonstrance.  saith the Demonstrator. This is new interpretation of dic Ecclesiae, this were news in Christendom: a man cannot inform the Church of a matter, unless he go to the Aldermen and ministers of every particular Church.  
Dic Ecclesiae with Chrisostome, 
Chrisostome 61. Hom. super Matth.  is tell the precedents and governors and prelate's of the Church: Praesulibus scilicet & praesidentibus. If none have need to tell the elders, than the rule of dic Ecclesiae, tell the Church, may be kept without them: but no man having ordinary and ecclesiastical lawful magistrates need to run to the laical elders: Ergo (for aught that I know) the rule may be kept without them.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
If the whole government of the Church be described to Titus and Timothy to be observed to the end, than there must be elders under a Christian magistrate: 
Demonstration.  but the first is true, Ergo the second. 1. Tim. 6.14. v.  
To the Antecedent.  
I deny the sequel of the Antecedent: 
Remonstrance.  for all the descriptions there, yet there are no elders. If you mean the whole and sole government of the Church to be described, I deny the whole Antecedent: for the deaconship of women is but a temporary, and no perpetual thing, which is there described: so you are once again to seek for your elders.  
To the Assumption.  
The ecclesiastical government is described, not in specie, but in genere, and so it is prescribed.  
The 5. Demonstration. 
Demonstration.   
Where sin is most outrageous, there is need of all helpers to punish sin etc. so it is under a Christian magistrate: Ergo, need of Elders.  
There needeth no new magistracy nor ministery in the church, 
Remonstrance.  but the civil and ecclesiastical help that already is.  
This is but a base and accidental original and birth of elders, Ex malis moribus nascuntur bonae leges.  
Because there are inordinate men, we must of pure needs have these ignoble elders to correct them.   

The thirteenth Chapter.  
Assertion.  
THere must be Deacons who must only receive and distribute the liberality of the Saints, 
Demonstration.  & not intermeddle with the ministery.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
That wherein Stephen and the rest were employed, is the office of a Deacon, but they were only for the poor, Acts 6.4. Ergo, the office of a Deacon is only for the poor.  
To the Minor.  
The Deacons served occasionally by reason of the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Remonstrance.  murmuring for relief of the poor, but principally they served for attendance and ease of the ministery, and distribution to the poor. Not only therefore for the poor: They were mensarum & viduarum ministri, saith S. Hierom, at which feasts it is known the communion was celebrated.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That office which the Apostle maketh distinct, 
Demonstration.  may not be mingled.  
But Rom. 12. distributing in simplicity is so: Ergo,  
The Mayor lacketh a word, perpetually distinct.  
The Minor is false: 
Remonstrance.  the reason holdeth not from distinct virtues to offices. Let my reason bend against you: Either all those, or some of those, or none of those, are distinct: If all, why cause you not several offices out of all? None you will not say, That were to gainsay you selves: If some are, and some are not, show by some demonstration, and not by allegation, which are and which are not: Why to distribute is perpetual and distinct, why to show mercy is not perpetual, why a distributer is better than a shower of mercy: may no man that distributeth use simplicity, lest he encroach upon the Deacons office?  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which the Apostles found themselves insufficient for, 
Demonstration.  that no man can now discharge: but they were insufficient for the ministery of the word and ministration to the poor. Act. 6.2. ergo,  
The Mayor is false. 
Remonstrance.  The Apostles having the general care to plant Churches in all the world, might be unmeet and so unfit to serve the tables of the widows of the Greeks' and Hebrews, after the Church so mightily increased: and yet some men now for a narrowerprecinct, be able both to preach and to do the like: sith the severing of those two offices in the Apostles time which is not clearly demonstrated by you, is not to make them several for all succeeding times. The Elders or Ministers after the seven were chosen, dealt with the Church stock, Act. 11. and yet our bishops or ministers claim not this care from the Deacons.  
To the Minor.  
The word is, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, it is not meet: they do not say, we are insufficient: we may derive the care upon others, having extraordinary affairs to do for the whole Church. They were able to do it, but it was unmeet for them to be in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, daily ministration. It is unmeet for a king to be a common soldier, and yet he not insufficient to bear arms. The argument doth hold: he is insufficient, ergo, unmeet: è contrario, the conversion is not good.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
If the ministries of the word be perfect without the Deacon, 
Demonstration.  than he may not intermeddle in preaching of the word, where there is no need of him: but it is so, Ephes. 4.11. v. ergo,  
Out of this fabulous conditional proposition. If, etc. it followeth, 
Remonstrance.  there are diversities of ministries of the word, and all out of that place. But I answer the Assumption.  
No man is so rude to deny that to be a description of the ministries of the word, no man so bold to say that to be the only description of the ministries of the word: for 1. Cor. cap. 12. hath a perfecter description. If the number of 8. octonarius be perfecter, than the number of 5. numerus par, then numerus impar: But your number is 4. quaternarius: you are like the old Thracians, of whom Aristotle writeth, they cannot number beyond 4. they are so gross: even as your tetrarchy extendeth not beyond 4. But if this were a good reason to debar a Deacon from preaching, how doth that follow hereof, which he is in hand to prove: viz. that he must only receive and distribute to the poor, or that he must do it at all?  
The 5. Demonstration.  
If no quality be required in description of the Deacon, 
Demonstrat.  which is proper to the ministery of the word, than he is not to meddle with the same: but none 1. Tim. 3.8. is required, ergo,  
This hypothetical Syllogism is false to begin withal. 
Remonstrance.  You cannot reasonably argue a destructione antecedentis ad destructionem consequentis, or a positione consequentis ad positionem antecedentis, unless you will commit the fallacy of the consequent: as if no quality be required in the man, which is proper to the master, then may not he be another masters man: but no quality is required, ergo, he must still be a masterless man.  
To the Assumption.  
Some qualities are communicable to the minister and to the deacon. This destroyeth your assumption.  
Connenit omni sednon soli, semper, & reciprocè.  
A deacon must be the husband of one wife, so must a minister. A deacon must govern his house well, so must a minister. A deacon must not be given to much wine: but sober, temperate. A deacon must be without blame, and so must a minister and a Bishop. A minister may preach the word, the deacon upon leave. A minister must be able to teach faith: the deacon have the ministery of faith in a pure conscience, and yet have great boldness and liberty in the faith of Christ, as Stephen who preached. ministery is perfit and complete: the deaconship a good degree unto the ministery: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 attained to a good degree, to be credited afterward with the full ministery. But thus we retort it upon yourselves.  
If no quality be required in a deacon, 
Retortion.  by that place of S. Paul 1. Tim. 3. which is proper to one who is to receive and distribute to the poor, then is he not to intermeddle therewith: But no such, 1. Tim. 3. is required: Ergo a deacon (by your own rule) is not to intermeddle in distributing to the poor.  
For proof of the Minor, peruse them, & you shall find no quality required there in a deacon tending that way. In that he must not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, given to filthy lucre or covetous, maketh not any thing for this purpose: for this sin is forbidden to every Christian, as the root of all evil, and to the Bishop in that self same chapter: Yet you will not therefore gather, that all Christians and Bishops, are officers only to distribute to the poor.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
If the deacons may meddle with the word and Sacraments also, 
Demonstrat.  than it is greater than the office of the Pastor: but it is not greater than that, ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
It is not therefore simply greater in that respect: 
Remonstrance.  For then this absurdity might follow, One and the same thing might be greater and lesser than itself: as the Apostles when they exercised all themselves. It is not greater in dignity, but in some regard of present service: Howbeit no man doth defend that the deacons may as far deal in the word and Sacraments (and in provision for the poor also) as the pastors may.  
If the delegates or high Commissioners may deal by commission from the Prince in matters of the Church, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  and in other capacities in civil matters also, then are they greater than Counsellors of state, or all as great as the Prince herself: This Mayor and your Mayor are cousin germans, or very near of blood, and both untrue and absurd.  
The 7. Allegation, or Demonstration.  
Deacons are ministers of tables, and not of holy things. 
Demonstrat. 6. conc. Constant. cap. 16.   
That is, rather of tables then of holy things: I will have mercy and not sacrifice, that is, rather mercy than sacrifice: or else the words are to be understand, Non de viris qui ministrant ministerijs, 
Remonstrance.  sed de ministerio quod in usu mensarum adhibebatur, which is the interpretation of the Council, Concil. Neocaesariens. cap. 14. which made a rule for 7. deacons in every city, though little: whose office was after the poor were provided for, to preach the Gospel as they did.  
The 8. Allegation of the Demonstrator.  
Deacons have need of wisdom, 
Demonstrat. Chryso. 6. Art.  though they preach not: it is absurd they should do both.  
The Demonstrator cobleth Chrysostom's words: 
Remonstra. Hom. 14. art. 6.  For this one in Chrysostome is two sentences. I answer it is an absurd thing they should do both, and be tied as of necessity to do both: for otherwise it is evident they preached in Chrysostom's time.  
The 9 Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstra. Conc. Vasens. c. 4.   
In the Minister's sickness, the Deacons should read Homilies.  
This is news to allege a Council for a reading ministery, 
Remonstr.  and reading Homilies, yet it maketh against you: for if they may read Homilies, then are they not only to distribute to the poor, and then may Homilies be read in Churches.  
The 10. 
Demonstra. Bulling. decad. 5. serm 2.  Allegation or Demonstration.  
Although the goods of the Church increasing, there were Deacons, Subdeacons', Archdeacon's, yet the Deacons were not mingled with the Bishops.  
Even now they are kept from that mixture. 
Remonstr.   
The 11. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstra. Bucer. de reg. Christ. cap. 4.   
The office of Deacons was kept religiously, till Antichrist drove it out.  
Bucer in the same place, 
Remonstra.  saith: the ancient Church did admit their Deacons to the ministration of the word, and their Sacraments, ergo, none of your fashion Deacons.  
The 12. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstra. Idem de reg & superephe. 4.   
The office must be restored as it is, Act. 6. if England receive Christ's discipline.  
The Deacons were not a mere corporal office of distributers to the poor, 
Remonstrance.  but also in part ministers about the Sacraments, and attendants on the Pastors to help them.  
The 13. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Martyr. Ro. 12. 
Demonstra.  lamenteth that the name was scant remaining.  
He speaketh of the policy of the Popish Church: 
Remonstrance.  Vehementer dolendum, etc. Substituerunt hijs cereferarios, acoluthos, subdiaconos, which orders we have not.  
The 14. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Caluin. institut. li 4. ca 3. sect. 9 
Demonstrat.  saith we ought to have the like.  
So we have: 
Remonstrance.  for the book of ordination appointeth them this office, where other order is not taken. But Caluine proveth women Deacons, and the perpetuity of them out of the same place, which you give the slip unto.  
The 15. Demonstration or Allegation.  
Deaconship is an ordinary function. 
Demonstra. Beza confe. ca 5. sect. 22.23.   
What is this to the purpose? who maketh it extraordinary but yourselves? who take away the attendance on the ministery, 
Remonstran.  his lawful help?  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Philip, one of the 7. Deacons did preach. Act. 8.8. Ergo, 
Demonstration.   
The Answer of the Demonstrator.  
He preached by virtue of being an Evangelist.  
The words are: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Philip, after the persecution, 
Remonstran, with reply. Herom. ad Luciferi. Scias Philippum eundem. Dominum jesum Christum praedicasse, diaconum certè fuisse eorum qui posteae manus imposuerunt.  preached Christ going down to Samaria, baptised also those whom he converted: Ergo, he preached as a minister of the word, and of that Sacrament, although by his first ordination a Deacon. Or show where he had new imposition of hands, for the warranty of that he did: Offices than were not so precisely distinguished. I deny he was an Evangelist, as an officer distinct. Ephe. 4. but is called an Evangelist, as every one may be that preacheth the Gospel, and as all might be that were dispersed. Act. 8.4. For all those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, went abroad preaching the word.  
The 2. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Stephen being a Deacon, preaeched.  
Answer. 
Demonstration.   
It was an Apology and no Sermon.  
It was an apologetical Sermon, as his Sermon being an exact Sermon declareth: He was no private man, 
Remonstrance, with reply.  that was full of faith and power, refeled the Cyrenians, and Libertines, and did many signs, and confirmed his doctrine with his blood. You cannot show so much pregnancy in all the scripture, that Philippe and Stephen ever distributed to the poor, as doth here appear for their preaching and baptizing also, as Philip did.  
The Assertion of the Demonstrator.  
That there ought to be Deacons in every Congregation. 
Demonstra.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
That which every congregation hath need of, aught to be: But every congregation hath need, because it hath poor. Ergo,  
That, 
Remonstrance.  or the equity of that aught to be: Our Collectors, our Churchwardens, our Hospitals, alms-houses, are in steed of that part of their corporal ministration or Deaconship in many places. Our Saviour jesus, although he faide, you shall have poor always with you, did not forth with send the Deacons: therefore granting of poor, doth not necessarily infer placing of Deacons.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That which is indefinitely appointed for the good of the Church, 
Demonstration.  must be in every Congregation: But such is. Timoth. 3.8. Ergo,  
By your leave Sir, 
Remonstrance.  that which is definitely appointed, must rather hold in every Congregation: for which cause we uphold the order of Deacons by institution Apostolical, but neither manner of their election, nor number of 7, which the council of Neocaesar. doth allow, and is after repealed by an other Council. Your Mayor is grossly false: Synods and Classes are indefinitely appointed for the good of the Church, as you say: Ergo, they must be planted, and continually settled in every parish.  
The 3. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstr. Igna. ad Philad.   
Every Church must have the office of Deaconship.  
Ignatius meaneth by a Deaconship, attendance on the Bishop in his See, 
Remonstrance.  not a corporal Deaconry. The words are, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There is one Bishop with the Elders and Deacons.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
All the reasons in the 12. chapter. for a Bishop in every Congregation, 
Demonstration.  serve for a Deacon.  
As good reason will be afforded for a parish Bishop, as only a corporal Deaconship, 
Remonstrance.  and the same answers will serve them.   

The fourteenth Chapter.  
The Assertion.  
THe Eldership consisteth of a Pastor, or pastors, 
Demostrat.  (Doctor if there by any) and Elders.  
Ergo, 
Remonstrance.  your Doctor is not of this indeclinable necessity, wherein you follow the discipline of France: But how can you then urge the 4. Eph. for all these offices to be in every congregation, and why doth your last absolute plat make them essential in every Church, so as it cannot be a Church without them?  

1 The Eldership ought to be in every congregation. 
Demonstration.   
2 The Eldership is perpetual.  
3 The Church must be governed only by the rules of God's word.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
The means which Christ hath ordained to keep men in obedience, must be in every Congregation.  
But Christ hath or deigned the Eldership to that end. Mat. 18.15. Dic Ecclesiae, Tell the Church, Ergo: it must be in every Congregation.  
To the Minor.  
Christ hath neither ordained any Eldership, 
Remonstrance.  nor to any such end, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Tell the Church is not, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the promiscuous multitude of men, women, and children, nor yet the Lay Elders, but the lawful Ecclesiastical governors or magistrates of the Church.  
It is one thing to say, Dic senioribus ecclesiae, tell the signory of the Church: another thing, tell the Governors of the Church, or the Church simply.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
Where all sorts of Elders must be, 
Demonstration.  there must be the joining of these offices in one: But all sorts of elders ought to be in every Congregation, as in the chap. 10. for Bishops, 12. for Elders. Ergo:  
To the Mayor.  
I doubt of the verity of this Mayor: 
Remonstrance.  for it is not needful where every sort of Ancients must be, there should be combination and joining of the offices in one: for in the city of London are the ancients of every Corporation and mystery to wait on the Lord Maior, and to assemble at a Folkemote: Ergo, after your mind they must join their offices, companies, and mysteries all in one. They may join the presence of their persons, they need not conjoin or confound the offices together in one, to make one entire office consisting of them all.  
To the Minor.  
Preaching and unpreaching Elders, Doctoral and Pastoral cannot be in every congregation, neither need be: for whence shall a man nourish them as Demosthenes saith? What, from heaven? for if they be nourished from the earth, the increase thereof like unto the caterpillar, they will eat up every green thing. If you say every sort of them is proved before: I am sure it is disproved also before. This Minor is false: for if they ought to be, why do you suffer the Doctor to be wanting? at least not to be of such necessity, but that he may be spared?  
The 3. Demonstration.  
If no particular Congregation have privilege greater given than other, 
Demonstrat.  then must either no Eldership be at all, or else in every Congregation: But every Congregation hath like privilege, because it is a perfect body. Ergo:  
To the Assumption.  
No Congregation hath any privilege for Eldership, 
Remonstrance.  and yet is a body perfect of itself: To add any thing to the perfection of Art is curiosity, to the perfection of nature monstruousnes: as for the Charter of the privilege of your Eldership, you have not showed it.  
Let our Syllogism be this:  
If every Congregation have like privilege, than every one or none must have Doctors: But every one need not (but where it may be, as you say) Ergo, none must have a Doctor, or else your own collection is foolish.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
The same warrant that is for an Eldership in one place, is the warrant to have it in all, 
Demonstrat.  for GOD tieth it not to Churches in cities, but to the Church: But there is a warrant to have in some, Ergo, in all.  
To the Mayor.  
You say the very truth: 
Remonstrance.  for your consistorial Eldership is warranted in no place: as for pastoral Eldership, it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expound it how you will, for towneship or city, although Paul and Barnabas ordained them. Acts 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through Iconium, Lystra, etc. for the commodity of the Church.  
To the Minor.  
The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your fancied Eldership appeareth in no place. If any man be contentious for it, as for a divine institution, the Churches of God have received no such custom, for 1550. years together.  
The Assertion.  
That the Eldership is perpetual. 
Demonstration.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
If the causes why Christ would have an Eldership be perpetual, then is the thing itself perpetual: but the causes, uz. to govern the Church by the rules of the word Ecclesiastically, are perpetual. Ergo.  
The Antecedent is true, if all the causes be perpetual: 
Remonstrance.  but here is mention only of the final cause. But a man may attain well to the end of government Ecclesiastical, and peace of conscience, without the complot of this Eldership, Ergo, all this is but a strong imagination. Why man, cannot the Church be governed by the rules of the word, under no kind of persons government, but of such an Eldership?  
The 2. Demonstration.  
If Christ be the author, and left it by his Apostles, to be established, 
Demonstration.  than it is perpetual: But Christ is the Authout in that he gave gifts for the particular members, and the whole body thereof. So it appeareth, 1. Cor. 12.12. And the Apostles not going beyond their commission, established it. Ergo, it is perpetual.  
To the Mayor.  
It is not necessarily true: 
Remonstrance.  for Christ by his spirit was the Author of that which the Apostles established for abstaining from blood and strangled, yet was not this perpetual.  
To the Minor.  
The very place which you mean (but quote wrong) uz. 1. Cor. 12.12. and afore, neither proveth any gifts given to the particular members of any such eldership, nor to the whole body of it: the place is, as the body is one and hath many members, & all the members of that one body being many, is but one body, so Christ. What? doth this prove any gifts given either to the particular members, or whole body of your Eldership? The gifts that a little afore are reckoned, to be severally given to several persons, are: The word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, the working of great or miraculous works, prophesy, discerning of spirits, diversity of tongues, and interpretation of tongues. If every of these be a several gift for a several officer in your Elderships, then in steed of three, uz. Doctors, Pastors, and Elders, (for I think you now have learned of the French discipline to exclude Deacons) you have nine officers in al. To run over therefore but those officers you are hitherto agreed on: which of these several gifts shall the pastor have? which the Doctor? and which the Elders? He that hath the word of wisdom, shall he not have the word of knowledge, nor faith? and he that hath faith, the last of these three, shall he be known by it as by a specifical difference from the rest, and have neither of the other? and he that hath knowledge, shall he neither have wisdom nor faith? Here you had need to have Ariadne's thread to wind yourselves out of this Labyrinth: and how will ye accommodate the other six gifts, and to whom? the most whereof (if not all) are long agone ceased. I know you cannot show an ocular demonstration of these six gifts, remaining, (and achieved not by industry, but without all ordinary means as it was then) in any Eldership or Synod in the world, nor ever shallbe able, if you live out Methuselah his years. You see then the gross absurdities that follow your appropriating and tying of several gifts to your several and peculiar officers: yet is it almost the only reason in substance, which (with a little diversity of dressing) you serve out in twenty several dishes. And you may with confusion of faces acknowledge your licentious boldness in abusing the Scriptures both here and elsewhere, to make show of serving your turns: Which ariseth hereof, that you bring not your senses to the scripture, but draw the Scripture that is not of private interpretation unto your own fantastical senses, and understandings.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
Whatsoever is commanded and never repealed, the Church must receive that as perpetual: But such is the government of the Church by the Eldership, 
Demonstration.  in that S. Paul mentioneth them, and are to be esteemed as commandments of the Lord. 1. Cor. 14.37. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
One instance undoth this: to abstain 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from strangled, 
Remonstrance.  was a commandment never repealed, yet not binding us, nor perpetual.  
To the Minor.  
That is not the meaning of S. Paul: Whosoever is a Prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I writ unto you are the Lords commandments: what, for a presbytery or eldership? where is any such commandment in S. Paul? if it be, we embrace it as the Lords.  
The words alleged, are spoken of those Prophesying in course by any Christian to whom it was revealed, which was an use of the primitive Church: yet not retained now in any the reformed Churches, and is condemned even by our Consistorials in the Barrowists, a brood of their own hatching. At Geneva, Caluin once erected such prophesyings, at which a learned Physician would often speak against the course of the doctrine of Predestination, in that sort as Caluin taught it, whereupon Caluin caused that Exercise to be strangled in his swaddling clothes, so that a more pregnant place could not be brought to prove some commandments of Christ unto the first Church to be such, as cannot be urged in perpetuity: but yet for any such Eldership, we hold there is neither commandment, nor example for one time nor for other.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
That whose parts are perpetual, & perpetual gifts with it, that is perpetual: 
Demonstration.  But the several parts of the Eldership, as Pastor, Doctor, Elder, are perpetual as it is proved in the 10. and 12. cap. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
It is false: for that whose parts are decaying and ruinated, 
Remonstrance. Plutarch in Theseo.  may nevertheless be continuing or perpetual: as the ship wherein Theseus sailed into Candie to subdue the Minotaur, kept by the Athenians unto the time of Pericles, every plank and piece altered, and yet the same ship: as also our common wealth and Universities are the self same they were 200. years ago, though never a man of that age of life.  
To the Minor.  
Your answer hath been many times before: they are not perpetual as parts of any eldership. Pastors and Doctors are perpetual, as an entire office or ministery in the Church: as for Elders (as you mean them) they are in praedicamento nusquam, and therefore they and their gifts are no parts, nor yet entire officers in the Church. I take your fallacy to be, Elder is perpetual, and ship is perpetual, which are parts: Ergo, the whole Eldership is perpetual: or that your eldership is in the letters of the Alphabet, Ergo, in the scripture.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
That which is grounded on the general commandment of scripture, 
Demonstration.  is perpetual: but the government by the Eldership in election, ordination, censure, etc. is so proved in the several. Ergo:  
This Syllogism is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mere trifling and tumbling up and down in clouds of generality, 
Remonstrance.  a mere dalliance, and faileth of proving. If elections and ordinations be named in scripture, cannot they be done by any means, but by such an eldership as you speak of? your Minor is false.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
That government which hath power from God to begin, continue, and strengthen both the governors, 
Demonstration.  and the people in their callings, and obedience to Christ, that is perpetual: But so is the government by the eldership, because the Apostles used none other. Ergo:  
The Mayor draweth a goodly large compass, 
Remonstrance.  yet false: (as you think) for the Apostles, Evangelists, and Prophets had that virtue, and yet are ceased. But prove the Minor by some quotation of a Text, that your Eldership is so because the Apostles used no other, and that they used it: or else I will not believe it for your sake, or for T. C. your master, for whose sake you believe it. In the mean season, all that you depaint out for your Eldership, is a picture or poetry: ut pictura posuerit.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
That government which the twelve Apostles, 
Demonstrat.  and Paul before they consulted together, did uniformly agree upon and never repealed, must needs be of God and perpetual: But such is the Eldership, as all the adversaries do agree thereupon. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is a contradiction to your own conscience: 
Remonstrance.  for what reason may this be, They did neither confer upon it, nor consult together, nor made another privy, nor asked one another advise, nor by commandment enjoined, nor by tradition received it, and yet they did uniformly according to one form & pattern condescend & agree upon it? as much to say they did agree, that is, they did not agree, vele contra, did not agree, Ergo, agree.  
To the Minor.  
Such is not the eldership: for the Demonstrator hath no scripture, no Synod of the Apostles for it. It is a shame to charge us with the acknowledging of it.  
The 8. Demonstration.  
That which hath the same grounds, 
Demonstration.  which the preaching of the word and ministration of the Sacraments, that is perpetual: but such is the eldership grounded upon the commandment of Christ and his Apostles, and their practice. Ergo.  
To the Minor.  
This is saucily spoken: but not so soon proved, 
Remonstrance.  To make your eldership equivalent in durableness with the word of God, which is more lasting than heaven and earth: for the heaven and earth shall pass, but the word of the Lord endureth for ever. The eldership after your project is not so much, nor ever was temporary, much less perpetual, either by commandment or practice.  
The 9 Demonstration.  
That which hath like grounds to be perpetual, as the Apostles, 
Demonstration.  Prophets, Evangelists to be temporal, that is perpetual: but such is the Eldership: for the gifts of the immediate calling are gone, and the gifts of these are left: Ergo  
To the Mayor.  
I deny the Mayor, if you mean every Apostleship, 
Remonstrance.  Evangelist or Prophet's office: for there are yet Apostles: Legatione pro Christo fungimur: we are Ambassadors or Apostles for Christ, though not immediately called thereunto. It is showed before, that they be in that place perpetual aswell as Pastors or Doctors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 till we all meet together etc. Ephes. 4. but that which was extraordinary in their offices is ceased, as the immediate calling, which the Demonstrator absurdly calleth a gift. Pastor's also then had gifts extraordinary of healing and working other miracles: which though they be ceased, the whole office is not.  
To the Minor.  
There is no proportion between ens & non ens, between Eldership which never was, and the Apostles 12. or 72. that sometime were. The gifts for teachers and spiritual governors are left: but the figment of the Eldership hath no show of them. What gifts of government hath one of your Elders after imposition of hands more than afore? and do you choose all that can govern? neither part of your Minor is true: for neither are sundry of the Apostles, Evangelists, or Prophet's gifts ceased, neither have your Elderships any peculiar gifts to such an office remaining in every congregation.  
The 10. Demonstration.  
The ordinary remedy to cure diseases is perpetual: 
Demonstration.  the Eldership is so, for Dic Ecclesiae will cure the diseases of the Church. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
This Mayor will make Apostles, 
Remonstrance.  Evangelists, and Prophets perpetual, who were such remedies in their times.  
To the Minor.  
Supposing that which ought not be supposed, any conclusion followeth thereupon: as for the elderships' physic or chirurgery, all that followeth thereupon is but palliativa cura a pretence of cure: and if by dic Ecclesiae the eldership be meant, then shall the church be an ordinary remedy to cure the diseases of the Church, that is of itself.  
The 11. Demonstration.  
That government which was under the law, & in respect of the substance continued in the Gospel, 
Demonstration.  and bettered by the accidents, that is perpetual: but such is the Eldership: 12. reason of the 1. cap. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
If you can or have proved the beginning of the eldership in the law, 
Remonstrance.  continuance in the Gospel, let it stand to the worlds end: if not, quid dignum tanto feret hic promissor hiatu?  
To the Minor.  
The mad sickness of your reason and disproportion appeareth in the answer there. There is no correspondence of any eldership either to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the greater number of 70. or of the 23. which is said to be the less: which do you challenge? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; speak plainly if you dare, or else the reason will retire upon you thus,  
That government which never was under law or Gospel, 
Retortion.  for essence or accidence of Church policy, may not be continued or begun in the Church: The eldership fancied over men & matters hath neither original of time, nor privilege of authority, Ergo, the golden eldership may not begin or continue in the Church.  
The 12. Demonstration.  
If this eldership be alterable being once settled, 
Demonstration.  either it is in respect of the extraordinary offices ceased, or of the addition of the magistrate: Not the first, for if the Church doth need, God doth ever give gifts extraordinary, nor the second, for the magistrate is to defend the building of the church. Ergo.  
You might have saved your pains in the antecedent: 
Remonstrance.  for alteration followeth or succeed that which was, and doth not succeed that which is not. That which never was in the church admitteth no alteration, no more than Tragelapsus, or Hyppocentaurus, or the man in the moon: if you will have an issue in the question, let it be this: where a Christian magistrate is, there needeth no eldership, it is ex super abundanti: and where it wanteth, God also hath other ways then by such mixture of offices to govern the church. But thus I retort: To every institution of his that hath need, Gods sends gifts extraordinary: To your elders that want ordinary gifts fit for so great government, he sendeth no gift extraordinary: Ergo your Eldership is not his institution.  
The 13. Demonstration.  
Either this is the best government and perpetual, or none at all: 
Demonstration.  but some government must be the best and perpetual: Ergo this is perpetual.  
This is handsomely concluded: this is best and worst, 
Remonstrance.  or none at all: better none at all then never a whit the better: better nothing then this anarchical or tumultuary government: unless perchance you hold praestat malè esse quàm non esse. But there is a Christian ecclesiastical government already, though you will not see it: Christ in the midst of us, though some do not know it. You must prove your disjunctive Mayor a litter better.  
The 14. Demonstration. 
Demonstrat. Cofes. Helve. Tig. Ber. Gen. Pol. Hu. Scot Horm. Cap. 8.   
No man may justly forbid to return to the old constitution of the Church of God.  
If you prove this to be the old, and the institution to be for a perpetuity, than this old constitution is the best. 
Remonstrate.   
The 15. Demonstration.  
Experience teacheth this order was not for one, but necessary for all ages. 
Demonstrat, Caluin inst. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 8.   
It is certain that experience proveth it not so necessary nor profitable: for else the Apostles would not have instituted, and all succeeding ages followed so divers an order of Church government by Bishops, which Zanchus thinketh was of the holy Ghost.  
The 16. Demonstration.  
Though the common wealth change her government, 
Demonstra. P. Mar. 3. Rom  the Church must keep hers.  
That is, 
Remonstrance.  the laws of the eternal lawgiver for the essential matters of the Church government, not external policy which is variable. Belike your meaning is, our common wealth must change our Monarchy into tetrarchy to establish your tetrarchical government of the Church.  
The 17. Demonstration.  
Bucer dereg. Christi lamenteth that some would not have the same discipline used now adays which was used in the Apostles time. 
Demonstration.   
And so may we lament the foolish and proud resistance which is made to the superiority of our prelate's and governors, 
Remonstrance.  which is no other than that was.  
The 18. Demonstration.  
Whittaker contra Duraeun speaking of discipline, 
Demonstration.  The Apostles have written these laws, not for a day or for the first age, but for all times to come, and that with obtestation. 1. Timoth 6.  
Aetatem habet, 
Remonstrance.  the man is of discretion, let him answer for himself: It cannot be he meant your rules of discipline, he knoweth the absurdity of it, and that your presbyterium est figmentum humanum, and is no such commandment as Paul maketh obtestation to have kept.  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
By this every Parish shall follow? 
Demonstration.  their Seniors, and then there will be so many divers fashions, seeing one may not meddle with another.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
The government desired is uniform for every Church, and admitteth no change not in outward ceremonies, without a Synod of choice men out of every Eldership.  
Here is nothing but eldership upon eldership, 
Remonstrance with reply.  infinite elderships which the word of God describeth not: what need we exchange the uniformity which we already have, for that which is at the least suspicious to any well-sighted eye, if not pernicious? But if one Eldership will breed molestation in the planting of it, at all adventures, what a do will it make in the supplanting thereof? Quae nascentia mala sunt, ea crescentia peiora. They must have (he saith) uniformity even in ceremonies not to be changed without a Synod of choice men: And were not ours so established? And yet they will not observe them: May not we make as bold with their ceremonies, and use as small uniformity as they do now?  
The 2. objection of the Demonstrator.  
If the Eldership being mean men choose an Earl, he must be at their beck.  
The answer of the Demonstratour. 
Demonstrat.   
No man chosen is compelled against his will: but he that despiseth to consult with others in God's matters, because they be poor, reproacheth God that made them. 17. Prou. 5.  
Hear this O ye princes and Earls of the land: you must be at the Elders beck and command, 
Remonstrance.  or else you blaspheme your and their maker. Salomons words are 17. Prou. 5.14. cap. 31. verse, He that mocketh or he that oppresseth the poor: not a word of Elders. This is a contradiction to yourself: Any Earl or any man may choose or refuse to take it upon him, because every one hath a negative voice, and yet he must be taken to disdain if he do refuse.  
The 3. objection of the Demonstrator.  
It overburdeneth the Parish to provide for so many Elders to be nourished. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
They shall not need, unless they need the liberality of the Church.  
They shall not need unless they need: This is a fine reciprocation. 
Remonstrance.  They will need forth with, and be idle and busiebodies, if they may have maintenance. This Eldership is no vocation by the word of God, and therefore burdensome to the Church. But if the Church be not bound to maintain them, than they are none of those Elders that are worthy double honour, 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour, liberal maintenance is there chief understood, as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place do import.  
The 4. objection of the Demonstrator.  
It bringeth in a new Popedom or tyranny in the Church. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
It is blasphemy to term the government so: for shall we not yield our obedience to the Sceptre of Christ?  
Nay it is a name full of blasphemy, 
Remonstrance with reply.  and the mystery of Antichrist, to call the babble of their Eldership (as they describe it) by the name of the Sceptre of our blessed king and Saviour jesus Christ, and to challenge to themselves the obedience due to our Lord Christ. Nay, if many Antichrists be worse than one, and many tyrants more intoilerable than one: then this, to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and popedoms, is Mysterium iniquitatis, which doth advance against Christ. Hath Christ no Sceptre to govern his Church by, but in their hands? Do all deny Christ to be their king, that refuse or have not your Elderships? With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions, that yield him these premises to conclude by?  
The 5. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
It is a kind of Donatisme to challenge such authority over Princes. 
Demonstration.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
It is flattery to suffer Princes to do what they list: This is Gualters' objection, an enemy to discipline.  
Gualther is no enemy to discipline, 
Remonstrance with reply.  but to anabaptistical discipline. As for this discipline in use, it is no flattery of Princes: but if your Assertion might sway, we should have flat rebellion and insurrection against all Christian Kings, especially against the sacred Majesty of our most gracious and glorious Prince. What can the Papists imagine of greater weight to be holden from them, than the Sceptre & kingdom of Christ as you do? And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are.  
The 6. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
It taketh away the Prince's authority in causes Ecclesiastical. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
No more than it did from David in his time, not so much as the Bishops do now: for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered, which the Eldership alloweth and craveth.  
There was no such Eldership in David's time: 
Remonstrance with reply.  Ergo no comparison between this and that time. But this impeacheth her majesties Prerogative and pre-eminence given by all the Peers, Lords Spiritual, Lords Temporal, the Commons in the lower house, Convocation house, to set up a Consistory over all causes and persons, yea, over herself: For these men dream, that all sheaves must bow to their sheaves, (which God forbidden) for they are a quintessence of Eldership, above Sun and moon, above the Imperial firmament. It is a slander to say, not so much as Bishops: for Bishops have none authority of jurisdiction, but derived from the Prince, unto whose regal authority of the crown all commanding superiority is annexed. But you claim other and far greater, as elsewhere is showed.  
The 7. objection of the Demonstrator.  
It transformeth the state of the Common wealth into a mere popularity, 
Demonstrat.  and will alter this government.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
No, for what damage cometh by this discipline to the Magistracy, from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes?  
Because the Prince must govern after their direction, 
Remonstrance with reply.  as the learned discourse doth say: The Prince shallbe but a feeling member, not an head or supreme governor of the Church: Princes must cast down their Crowns, and submit their Sceptres to the sceptre of the Presbytery: nay which is more odious, as T.C. doth apply, must lick up the dust of their feet, that is of the Church, which is the Presbytery: Because her Majesty must not only be directed by the regency of the Eldership, but upon their judgements corrected also. They will make laws, call Synods, have the last appellation, and many such like, as hath been afore touched. Finally, because her Majesty hath neither dispositive not consultative voice, she may not be privy what the Presbytery doth, by her own presence or by sending her Attorney: with many more as they shall hear.  
The 8. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
It will send contention and partiality in judgement. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
Where can it be greater than in the Bishop's kingdom?  
Yes forsooth, greatest of all in the Tetrarches' Popedom: 
Remonstrance with reply.  But this is but to answer with recrimination, or reaccusing one another. Verily as for the Bishop's ministery, it is no kingdom, neither your kingdom or tetrarchy any ministry. They are governed by laws in all their proceed, but you will have self will and law of your own mind, & blasphemously father it upon scripture and God's word: and so you do all most absurd and unequal decrees of your elderships, as in many particulars (where they reign) is showed.  
The 9 objection of the Demonstrator.  
It willbe contemned, and so good order neglected. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer.  
Nay God will procure awe to it: It is the Bishop's pomp and officers, which deserve contempt.  
But before in the 4. it was tyranny, 
Remonstrance, with Reply.  here contemptible, these are contrary.  
God will not honour those that honour not him, or who with a new invention glorify themselves. If the Bishops are in contempt, you are the men that contemn, Fastum Platonis maiore fastu. As for tyranny and contempt, they are seated well in you: For Psal. 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum: the word in Hebrew is Zuloth. When your Elders shallbe exalted and ride upon the Cherubims, when the many, or base sort do tyrannize, it will be a contemptuous tyranny in deed.  
The 10. objection of the Demonstrator.  
All alterations be dangerous. 
Demonstration.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
Never from Antichrist to God's obedience: this might be Stephen Gardiner's Argument.  
All alterations are dangerous, 
Remonstrance, with reply.  where things are religiously established, as with us. As for Stephen Gardiner, he made arguments De vera obedientia, which you, nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who (alike with you) impugn supremacy of Princes in causes Ecclesiastical, can ever answer. De mortuis nil nisi bonum: pascitur in vivis livor, post fata quiescit: So it should be.  
The Assertion.  
The Church must be ruled by the rules of God's word, etc. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon law. 
Demonstration.   
The 1. Demonstration.  
All governors are to execute their authority by the same warrant from which they have it: But the governors of the Church have their warrant only from the word, 1. cor. 12.28: Ergo, only by the word.  
Here be quatuor termini. 
Remonstrance.  It should be thus framed: By what warrant they have government, by the same warrant they must execute it: By the warrant of the word they have their government, Ergo, by the warrant of the word they must execute it.  
This we grant, that aswell the warrant to have government, as to execute it, must be grounded in the word: But hereof it followeth not, that all particular and specifical points that may happen in and about the execution, are set down in the warrant. Else what needed rules of discipline and Church government for France, Scotland, Gernsey and Geneva, to be set down as they are, if they were all afore expressed in Scripture? Nay they make them mutable upon occasions, and therefore not commanded by Scripture, which now in your last platform you distinguish to be understood not of the holy discipline which you say is Essential, but of the Synodical, belike neither holy, nor Essential: and yet this movable part containeth these Chapters or heads: Of the necessity of vocation, the manner of vocation and bounds of it, of election, of the manner of exercising a man's vocation, the office of the Ministers, and of the manner of the Liturgy, of making Sermons to the Church, of Catechism, of other parts of Liturgy, of Sacraments, of Baptism, of the Supper, of fasts, of holy days, of Marriages, of Schools, of students in Divinity and their exercises, of Elders, of Elderships, of Censures, of Church assemblies, of Classes or conferences, of Synods, with the judgement touching all the Discipline.  
If the warrant both to have a government, and to execute it, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  be derived from the commission of the prince, doth it follow that all particular directions that may happen to be needful about the execution of it, are there also set down? But this sort of persons weigh not how their speeches agree, either with their own words, with their practice, with reason, or with truth, so they may make a vain show of some appearance to their simple followers that are not able to judge.  
I do not think this man can be angry with the letter of the Canon law, but with the Canonists, Sacerdotes juris, the Priests and interpreters of the Law, who have inflicted upon him some censure of the Law. I know not what the quarrel is, but this I am sure, he doth drive out by curse of the Sanedrim or Presbytery, the whole course of the Law: Me think all his fight is Lapitharum pugnae, disorderly fight.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
The Church must be governed by that which the Ministers must teach: 
Demonstration.  The Ministers may teach nothing but the word. 1. Cor. 11.23. Ergo.  
Here is another transposition of the parts of the Syllogism, 
Remonstrance.  or no Syllogism at all.  
To the Mayor.  
This is strange doctrine, there must be no law in particular in the Church, but the Minister must at first teach. This is a confusion of divinity and law. If the meaning be that by nothing it must be governed, but what the Minister must teach (as it must needs be, for else he saith nothing:) Then is the Mayor false, & the whole Syllogism more false, as consisting all of mere negatives, for only is an implied negative, as only man is reasonable, is as much as nothing is reasonable besides man: and then it standeth thus, By nothing must the Church be governed but what the Minister must teach: The Ministers may teach nothing but the word, Ergo by nothing but the word must the Church be governed. If the Syllogism were good, the untruth of some part of it might thus appear: By nothing but the word of God must the Church be governed: Neither your Synodical and variable discipline, nor your Eldership is the word of God: Ergo, by your Synodical discipline or by your Elderships, the Church may not be governed.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which maketh the Church obedient to Christ, 
Demonstrat.  must be the direction whereby it is governed: The only word maketh the Church obedient to Christ: Ergo, It is to be governed by the rules of God's word.  
This is a spare demonstration, 
Remonstrance.  and might be granted also being truly understood of the general rules drawn out of God's word, but there is no coherence in the Mayor. The Minor is false speaking properly: for it is the spirit of God that worketh in us obedience to Gods will.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
Every kingdom and household must be governed by the laws of the king: 
Demonstrat.  The Church, etc. Ergo.  
Occidit miseros crambe repetita magistros: 
Remonstrance.  Coleworts twice boiled. This was the 2. demonstration of the first Chapter.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
That which was ordained to destroy the Church of God, 
Demonstrat.  cannot be a rule to govern the same: But such is the Canon law, Abstract. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
Scientia non habet inimicum nisi ignorantem: 
Remonstrance.  This man knoweth not neither Paragraphe nor Rubric of the law: he produceth the Abstract, as honest a man as himself: he will be tried by his fellow, because he will not willingly trouble the country. Canon law (viz.) decrees of godly Councils, was in use before Antichrist came in, if you take the vulgar computation of antichrist's coming in: what thereof is retained, is afore showed. Was there not as heedful advise taken, and by as sufficient men, as met about setting down of their discipline? I would they would but take the pains themselves to confer the Canon law, and their own platform together, for causes Matrimonial that often may happen: and then judge whether they have prescribed sufficient direction for all or most occurrences that may happen in the compass of their government.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
That which was invented by the Dragon to persecute the Church, 
Demonstrat.  cannot be good for the Church: But the Canon law. Ergo.  
If you mean Draco the Athenian, he writ his laws in blood: 
Remonstrance.  If you mean the Dragon in the Revelation, he writ no laws, unless he be penman of the Presbytery laws. He might have made several Demonstrations like this, one with the Devil, another with Satan, the third with Beelzebub, etc.  
The 7. Demonstration.  
That which strengtheneth the power of darkness and ignorance, 
Demonstration.  is not good for the Church: But the Canon law increaseth Popery, for scarce any officer of knowledge towards it, but is a Papist, Ergo.  
To the Minor.  
It is rather as a medicinable poison to expel another: Nothing better is to overthrow the Papacy, then by the Canons of his own law. As for your prosyllogisme, It increaseth Papists, Ergo. Popery, the officers are much beholding to you: O cankered mind and venomous tooth and mouth. There be officers that know it and have studied it, which are able to reason more sound against Popery, than the haughtiest Rabbyn of you all. Alas the jesuits desire no better match, then to have a Puritan come to reason with them, they are so far to seek in the controversies. I am assured more sound arguments may be drawn out of that Law against the Pope and Popery, than three of the best of our Puritans can bring out of all their readings. Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council, even out of the Decrees of Gratian.  
The 8. Demonstration.  
That which destroyeth the Church, 
Demonstra.  cannot be good to rule: But the Canon law destroyeth it, for it crosseth every faithful Minister in discharge of his duty. Ergo.  
Hinc illae lachrymae. 
Remonstrance.  Lex non est posita justis: there is no law but for lawless men. If all the old Canons and course of law were gone, than you were safe enough, you and your Elders would be Popes in your own Parishes. And is in deed the Church destroyed, when any of you be crossed in your manner of discharging your ministery? The Church (I perceive) with you hath many significations.  
The 9 Demonstration.  
That which hath bread more traitorous Papists in England, 
Demonstrat.  than the Seminaries of Rheims and Rome, cannot be good: but the Canon law, etc. Ergo.  
This is a seditious and frantic Paradox: 
Remonstrance.  well, you shall have somewhat for the making: your credit shallbe in the next Demonstration: none shall believe you. Belike they were converted to Popery by the study of the Canon law: even as like, as if a man would say, that your discipline is able to convert from Popery to the Gospel.  
The 10. Demonstration.  
That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in again, 
Demonstrat.  cannot be good: But the Canon law: for it keepeth the cages of these unclean birds, as Archbishops, Lord bishops, Arches, Cathedral Churches: Ergo.  
This bird would sing in a Bridewell cage, 
Remonstr.  if he be not caged in another manner of cage, or deplumed rather for libeling against judgement seats, and Colleges of the Prophets: O shameless folly: as if Popery were come in, it could not bring with it the whole Pope's law, though it were abrogated in the mean time.  
The 11. Demonstration.  
That which all the Churches have cast off as unfit, 
Demonstrat.  cannot be good: But all the Churches that have forsaken the Pope, have cast it off. Ergo.  
The Mayor tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie. 
Remonstr.   
To the Minor.  
An instance is: The reformed Churches of Germany, Denmark, and Sweden, that retain much of it: and so our Church: But they will deny ours perhaps to be a Church reform. What folly were it where a case happeneth with a just & equal decision, to determine the contrary, because he was an ill man under whose authority it was first published? Though Rich. 3. was an usurping tyrant, his laws were very good and are yet retained, and so are the sound judgements that were given in times passed by Papists, judges, and bad men.  
The 12. Demonstration.  
We ourselves mislike it, as appeareth by a statute of Edward the 6. 
Demonstration.   
We do not mislike but abridge: 
Remonstrance.  an abridgement or exception unto part, is not misliking of the whole: By an abridgement no more was intended then to have it perfectly known what was profitable to be retained, as not contrary to the prerogative Royal, nor laws of the land. O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator.   

The fifteenth Chapter.  
Assertion.  
Governors of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiastical only: as vocation, abdication, 
Demonstration.  in deciding of controversies, in doctrine and manners, as far as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church.  
This Assertion is laid out by him, 
Remonstrance.  not so much to signify what appertaineth to Church governors, as what not appertaineth: viz. civil causes: which he fancieth that Bishops do exercise, and to claim as appertaining unto their functions. By abdication he meaneth deposition of Church officers: the word signifieth properly a voluntary putting away of an office, but he thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a man's will: such a fault may be forgiven to a poor smatterer in learning, when he taketh it up at a more learned man's hand per fidem implicitam, and he only to be blamed that thus served him on trust. The French disciplines both, and their practice together with the book written in confirmation of that discipline, do attribute to every consistory or Eldership authority and power to make laws ecclesiastical. This part of power our men never reach at plainly & in direct terms, because it were likely to be envious, & perhaps would prove either too hot or to heavy unto them. And it is wisely (me thinketh) considered of them beside: for when all other laws for Church government are once taken away, then shall their power be more absolute, if none in their stead be set down, but all left to their own wills. And seeing they have left to themselves deciding of all controversies in doctrine and manners, as far as appertaineth to the conscience, there is still measure large enough in their own hands to supply this want at the full: for this one limb of authority will carry all causes (though most civil in their nature and practice) out of all Courts in the land unto their Elderships. First the Chancery, that decideth matters of controversy by conscience, is clearly dammed up and may go pick paigles. And are any other civil Courts in better case? no verily: for can any controversy be betwixt man and man, but it appertaineth to conscience, to give the matter contended for, unto him to whom of right it is due? You may not therefore marvel hereafter if you chance to hear a man excommunicated by them (among whom this discipline reigneth) for refusing to cancel a band, if they think it unconscionable, or denying to acquit a debt, though it were with the creditors undoing. This (forsooth) is no civil cause or matter at the common law, though Littleton would depose twenty times that it were. By vocation I think they mean the first nomination of a man unto the people for an ecclesiastical office. They leave out election, because they would seem more popular than the French discipline that giveth to the Eldership both vocation and election: but by that time the cards be dealt out, you shall see all comes to one pass: for whom they nominate, he is thereby chosen, if the people do not gainsay it: and if they all do, there must also a cause be both alleged, and allowed by the Eldership, before he can be rejected.  
They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands upon the elected by the Eldership: but we see by other places that they have an eye unto it not to lose it. I will ask therefore all the learned of that side, where, by any pregnant place they find ordination of Ministers of the word with imposition of hands, or the censures of the Church inflicted in or since the Apostles time, by or under the authority of those that themselves are no ministers, but in all other respects are mere lay men, and but annual or biennall officers in the Church? If they cannot show it, let them for ever hereafter hold their peace, and confess it to be (in truth) a devise of man's brain, which they would seem so much to detest in Church government.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
That which our Saviour Christ refused ruling and governing the Church, 
Demonstration.  and teaching the Church, that is not lawful for an ecclesiastical person to do: but Christ refused to divide the inheritance, Luk. 12.14. Ergo Ecclesiastical persons may not judge in civil matters.  
The syllogism is to be concluded new again: 
Remonstrance  here are four termini four terms in three quarters of a year. One conclusion is, Ergo ecclesiastical persons may not judge in civil causes: another should be, Ergo ecclesiastical persons may not divide land or inheritance: Amphor a caepit institui, current rota, sic urceus exit.  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor is to be denied: all that our Saviour refused, every of us may not refuse: he because he came to be a mediator between God and man, would not become a common divider, and judge of every secular cause of title of land: who made me? etc. neither my heavenly father sent me to that end: neither have I commission from thy brother to send thee into the moiety of the possession. Besides, if he had intermeddled in the matters of the common weal, it would have strengthened the conceit, that he sought an earthly kingdom, and to dispossess the Romans. To reason from Christ's refusal, is the refuse of all good reason, à non facto ad ius: Christ would not or did not answer Pilate in judgement: must we therefore conclude, Ergo at the tribunal of a judge, it is at our discretion to answer or not to speak? Christ did not condemn the woman taken in the act of adultery: shall not therefore officers Ecclesiastical condemn any such sinner?  
To the Minor.  
Christ refused to divide the inheritance: it was because he would not use the authority that he had as Lord of Heaven and earth when he came as a servant: not because either a Christian magistrate or minister should after his example lay aside all authority: 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; who hath appointed me, emplieth rather, that if he had been appointed by both the parties, he might have done it, and so may any minister arbitrate and compound a controversy civil that is committed unto him. If any Christians may be judges of civil matters 1. Cor. 6. why may not some ministers in some civil matters? If then he may whom the Church appointeth, nay whom two private men consent upon, though he be a person ecclesiastical: may not the Christian Sovereign Prince much more commit a civil cause unto them, and they lawfully deal in it? Or if it will be said, they may not so deal in causes civil delegated unto them: is then the sin hereof in him who delegateth, or who is delegated, or in both? But I need not wade further into this matter, I have spoken something to it afore. More authority civil then is delegated unto them, no Bishop hath, may have, or doth claim in this Realm: and therefore except they will impugn this point, their labour is superfluous. By the way I will propound this unto them: If all civil rule and authority be denied to persons Ecclesiastical (as in itself impious) how may they rule their wives, children, and household, which is economical power, and therefore civil, as civil is opposite to ecclesiastical? Likewise how may they cast their accounts, receive their rents, etc. Nay when they are rubbed with their lay Elders, and can no where find them, than they say they are not lay, but Ecclesiastical persons, because they have imposition of hands. If they be therefore so to be accounted, 
Country poison.  then how may they lawfully even in the year of their Eldership, be also civil magistrates, as Sheriffs, justices of peace, masters of their companies, counsellors, Syndicks, and what not though most civil, as daily experience teacheth where that discipline is in ure? Belike their assertions and rules are made only against bishops, not against themselves.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That which was forbidden to the Apostles, 
Demonstration.  is unlawful for ecclesiastical officers: but such dominion was forbidden, Luk. 22.28. which is to rule civilly. Ergo.  
That which was forbidden etc. is unlawful. 
Remonstrance.   
But ambition, tyranny, & contention for absolute, seigneurial and civil authority was forbidden, not a modest, either civil or ecclesiastical superiority: ergo, to be ambitious, & contentious, etc. is unlawful. In that here he apply that of Luke to civil rule, he cleareth our Bishops from the danger of it, in exercising any authority Ecclesiastical. This Argument is answered before.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
If necessary duties are to be left rather than our duty in the Church, 
Demonstration.  then may not a Church-officer deal in civil jurisdiction: but the former is true, for a man may not bury his father. Luc. 6.59. Ergo,  
I deny the sequel of the Antecedent: 
Remonstrance.  albeit some corporal or bodily offices, which duty biddeth to be done, may upon Christ's commandment be left undone, yet this is no bar to ministers and preachers of the Gospel, to deal in any necessary civil cause. And how is it proved that no civil jurisdiction may stand with doing of his Church duty? There is none of themselves, but they can be content to be executors to a wealthy widow, or such like: being no more afraid of it then they are to bury them.  
To the Assumption.  
Your quotation should be the 9 of Luke: the meaning of which place is, All Christians must lay aside all impediments and hinderances, that may draw them from coming to Christ: but some civil authority amongst Christians, is rather a furtherance.  
What consequence call ye this? A man may not bury his own father, rather than not follow Christ, or if Christ otherwise encharge him, Ergo, a minister that liveth in a Christian common wealth, may not lawfully have a branch of commission from the prince for civil jurisdiction?  
The 4. Demonstration.  
If he that hath an office must attend on his office, 
Demonstration.  then may he not intermeddle with another office: But the first is true, Rom. 12.7. Ergo, not with civil jurisdiction.  
He may not intermeddle without lawful calling or vocation, 
Remonstrance.  yet the connexion hath no sequel: Do you not see some that have two offices look near enough to both? This will roave at temporal men, as well as at ecclesiastical.  
S. Paul disputeth of diligence in our function, not of diversity of functions, which diverse functions may concur in one. See the answer to the first: thus I retort against yourselves: He that hath an office may not intermeddle with another. 
Retortion.  A Pastor hath an other office in the Church then his Presidentship in their Eldership: Ergo, A pastor may not intermeddle in the Consistory or Eldership.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
As the Soldier is in warfare, 
Demonstrat.  so is the Church-officer in ruling of the church: but the soldier entangleth not himself with things of this life: which place Cyprian allegeth against a minister that became an executor of his friends will. Ergo, Church-officers not with things of this life.  
To the Mayor.  
The Mayor holdeth wherein the proportion is to be held, 
Remonstrance.  for readiness and expedition.  
To the Minor.  
The soldier is not to be a pragmatical fellow in other worldly affairs, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. No more the Divine or preacher to be a worldling. As for the place of Cyprian lib. 1. epi. 9 it may serve any of your elders, that would encumber themselves either with that or any other troublesome execution: yet it is spoken of a tutorship or Gardianship which was by the Roman law more troublesome, and less beneficial than an executorship, and often times very dangerous to the state of the Tutor.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
Things of contrary qualities cannot concur. 
Demonstrat.   
The government of the Church and common weal are so: for they are both next special members of one general: the one spiritual, the other temporal: the one for the soul, the other for the body. Ergo,  
To the Mayor.  
Things of contrary qualities may concur in uno subiecto, 
Remonstrance.  in one subject, not in extremities of degrees, but remissively, not in intenso gradu: but the Mayor is the contradiction of the Minor: where you say they are special members of one general, etc. I take your meaning and not your words, things desparated are not verifiable one of another, or one of these two differences are not coincident one upon another. True it is, civil government is not Ecclesiastical, nor Ecclesiastical civil: Ergo, say you, these cannot meet in one. This is most false: for Moral virtues are not intellectual, nor intellectual moral, Ergo, shall it follow, none shall have them both? they may be in uno subiecto communi, & adequato, not proprio. Occonomie is not policy, nor policy Oeconomie, Ergo, none can govern his house and private wealth, and the common wealth also. This is also false.  
As for the addition of your Minor, the one, etc.  
Ecclesiastical government is not only spiritual, which concerneth the conscience inwardly: but Christian magistracy is also spiritual concerning the visible Church. The other temporal. It is not only temporal, unless ye mean amongst the Church: spiritual government respecteth principally the soul, not only the soul: Temporal government not only the body, but secondarily toucheth the conscience and soul, unless you can fayne a body without a soul. Here is your error: you do not understand that Christ doth govern by the magistrate and minister both spiritually and externally: howbeit by himself only spiritually, which doth plunge you in this Turkish error.  
The 7. Demonstration.  
If the whole government of the Church in particular office, 
Demonstra.  and in the whole Eldership be of great weight, then may not a Church officer intermeddle in any other calling: But the first is true. Ergo, the second.  
If you mean your imaginable Eldership, 
Remonstrance.  and offices of your own creation, upon your own surmise you may conclude what you list: if you mean pastoral eldership, and our rightful officers, the sequel of the antecedent may justly be denied. For if the Church-government be never so weighty, yet it is not diminished by laying on the commission of some civil authority derived especially from the supremacy of the prince.  
Let my reason march upon you thus.  
If their Eldership over all men's doctrine and manners, be too ponderous a weight for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 certain private men, artisans, and plough men, and others for to bear, then may they well forbear: But the former is true, Ergo, the later.  
The 8. Demonstration.  
If the Apostles were unfit for two offices both ecclesiastical, 
Demonstration.  then is the best church-governor unfit for two: the one of the common wealth, the other of the Church: But the first is true. Act 6.2. Ergo,  
This Antecedent cometh to this sum: 
Remonstrance.  If the Apostles were unfit to be Deacons and ministers, then is no Christian or the best governor for two more different offices unfit.  

First, the Apostles were not unfit for it: but it for the Apostles.  
Secondly, the text speaketh not of unfitness or insufficiency, but of inconveniency or unmeetnesse. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉.  
Thirdly, though it were unmeet for the Apostles to leave the ministration of the word, and to minister unto tables: (because other might be found, who were meet for that place) Nevertheless, they being Apostles, and extraordinary men, might at their discretion relinquish one office, and exercise another. It must not necessarily follow hereupon, that none being Ecclesiastical men may bear a civil office amongst Christians, and for Christian men.   
To the Assumption.  
That is denied to be expressly in the text: But let the argument be drawn indifferently for us both.  
Either you account those two offices, of Deaconry and ministery, greater, or less than a civil office and Ecclesiastical all in one. If greater, why then you see that successively for the commodity of the Church, the Apostles used both. If less, how holdeth your argument from the less to the greater, or from the greater to the less, sith with you the least Ecclesiastical officer for the soul, is greater than any civil officer for the body?  
But if your reason be thus, One man may not bear two high offices, both of great importance: Ergo, he may not bear one ecclesiastical office, another civil, the one of great, the other of less credit: The reason doth bend against yourselves: the Apostles did exercise one office of greater, another of less weight, for the well ordering of the Church in their own person: For where have you proved, that they did clean relinquish and put off the same? Sith Saint Paul was careful for collection and distribution of alms, 1. Cor. 16. cap. Ergo, an Ecclesiastical person may have in remissis gradibus, both authorities in a Christian Common wealth, which neither is nor aught to be secluded from the Church. Go and reconcile yourself with your brother, that writ so absurdly and confusedly the Politia Civili & ecclesiastica: for he is directly against you herein.  
The 9 Demonstration.  
That which was intolerable in the Papists, in us is unlawful: 
Demonstrat.  To bear both swords was intolerable in them, Ergo in us.  
To the Minor.  
To bear both swords for the Q. or Prince, that is, 
Remonstrance.  to receive as well temporal as spiritual jurisdiction from and for God and the Prince, is not intolerable neither repugnant to the word. To usurp Christ's office, or to usurp supreme civil power iure divino as certain Bishops of Rome have done and claim, or to place themselves in Princes thrones, that is unlawful: You can never show any such resemblance betwixt a Bishop being a justice of peace or counsellor, and the Pope's usurped authority claimed as due unto him.  
The 10. Demonstration.  
If it be lawful for an Ecclesiastical man to exercise the office of a civil magistrate, 
Demonstrat.  then è contra, for the civil magistrate to exercise the office of an Ecclesiastical person: but the later is unlawful, ergo the former.  
The one is not as lawful as the other, 
Remonstrance.  though upon a lawful calling I see no reason why a civil magistrate may not exercise, etc. But where the example of the one is more frequent than the example of the other, there it may seem more lawful for the one then for the other. It was lawful for Samuel to kill Agag, which was the office of Saul: but not lawful for Saul to offer sacrifice, which was the office of Samuel. The office of the civil magistrate may by commission or derivation of power, be committed to whom best pleaseth him, not è contra: The reason is, the civil government is a matter of accident, not of the essence of the ministery.  
I see no refusal you can make of this absurdity, 
Absurdity of the Demonstrator.  if you so deem it: If a civil man may exercise the office of an Ecclesiastical person, then may an Ecclesiastical man much rather execute the office of a civil person, for that is but an accessory thing to the principal office which he beareth: But a civil man may be an Elder, that is an Ecclesiastical officer, and the most honourable may not refuse without disdain of God (as you say,) Ergo the Ecclesiastical person may bear the office of a civil magistrate.  
The 11. Demonstration. 
Demonstrat.   
They may not entangle themselves with worldly affairs, 
Can. aposto. c. 80.  but Ecclesiastical.  
He must commodum se exhibere usibus Ecclesiasticis, 
Remonstrance.  so that he may best serve for the uses and services of the Church: Or so that one be not an impediment to another.  
The 12. Demonstration or Allegation. 
Demonstrat.   
None of the clergy shall receive charges of those who are under age, 
Conc. Chalcedon. ca 3. & 7.  or be steward to noblemen, or receive any secular honour.  
That is, 
Remonstrance.  none of the Clergy shall take the tutorship of any, or make a confusion of callings and functions: otherwise the Canon carrieth no sense.  
The 13. Demonstration, 
Demonstrat.  or Allegation.  
The Bishops shall only attend to prayer, 
4 Conc. Carth. ca 20.  and preaching, and reading.  
The words are, Episcopus nullam rei familiaris curam ad se revocet: 
Remonstrance.  Or he shallbe so employed unless upon lawful command and calling. His household cares may not make him forget his charge: yet he must have care thereof, & bene praeesse propriae domui, as S. Paul teacheth. But do you think this Canon barreth you from providing for your household affairs, or to be masters in your own houses?  
The 14. Allegation, or Demonstration.  
Caluin. Institut. lib 4. cap. 11. sect. 9 bringeth divers reasons to prove that Bishops may neither take nor usurp any civil office. 
Demonstrat.   
Caluin bringeth them, 
Remonstrance.  but you can not bring forth the reason, but like god Mercury in the high way point which way they go, but utter nothing. There is never an one of his reasons concludent, to prove it simply unlawful, but by way of that which may happen by it.  
The 15. Allegation, or Demonstration.  
Beza confess. cap. 5. Sect. 32. & 42. showeth the distinguishment of offices, 
Demonstrat.  and how the fathers dealt in things of this life, and how the Apostles punishments were extraordinary.  
Ergo is not so clear on your side: 
Remonstrance.  for if the Apostles censures were extraordinary, how dare you draw some of them into consequence? If giving of advise in all matters of war and peace, and in determinations judicial be matters of this life, than Beza himself useth civil authority as much as any one Ecclesiastical man in any reformed Church in Europe.  
The 16. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstrat.   
When both offices meet in one, the one hindereth the other. 
Martyr. 13. R●.   
That is, when the civil power is excessive or illimitable: 
Remonstrance.  The same Martyr out of Chrysostome saith, The Gospel was given to 'stablish the policy and government of Princes, and why not the policy of Princes for the Gospel?  
The 17. Allegation, or Demonstration. 
Demonstrat.   
There is no man so wise & holy, able to exercise civil & ecclesiastical power. 
Bucer 5. Matth.   
That is, in plenitudine potestatis. 
Remonstrance   
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
It countenanceth and maintaineth religion. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
It is the Papists reason which Caluin confuteth. Inst. lib. 4. cap. 11. sect. 9 for the two swords.  
The reason is no worse whose reason soever it be, 
Remonstrance with reply.  but to two sword it serveth not: there is one indeprivable authority to bear the sword.  
The 2. objection of the Demonstrator.  
It is good to punish vice by corporal punishment, that the word may be obeyed. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
It is good to preach the word, that they may obey their Prince for conscience sake. May the magistrate therefore preach? We must do good agreeable to our calling.  
Yea therefore it is good, 
Remonstrance with reply.  being granted from the Christian magistrate to punish sin corporally: as for the wanderment of your instance, if the magistrate be so called, he may preach obedience in his own person: and he that inflicteth corporal punishment, do no more than may stand with his calling.  
The 3. objection of the Demonstrator.  
Eli and Samuel were both Priests. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
They were extraordinary, and so was Eliahs' kill of Baal's priests, and Christ's whipping of buyers, etc. God separated them in Moses and Aaron.  
Cohanim in Hebrew signifieth princes and priests, 
Remonstrance with reply.  and therefore that is doubtful. Though the men were extraordinary, the offices are not always so: but they leave the use of corporal infliction, to punish Atheism and Idolatry, and to augment godliness. It is ordinary with you to answer all things by extraordinary, when you can hit of none other: all the old Testament is full of such examples of Ecclesiastical men, who exercised civil power, yea not being delegated by any superior Magistrate, and therefore seemeth ordinary that falleth out so often and in so many.  
The 4. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Peter killed Ananiah: 
Demonstrat.  Ergo Bshops may have prisons.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
It was with the word only. If they can do like, Peter's example will serve: If not, than it is extraordinary.  
Hierom epistola ad Demetriadem is not of your mind: 
Remonstrance with reply.  Petrus nequaquam imprecatur eis mortem ut stultus Porphirius calumniatur, sed Dei judicium prophetico spiritu annunciat, did not curse them by his word as Porphirie the fool would, but in a prophetical spirit telleth them of God's judgement that was at hand.  
First we make no such objection: The Bishops have no prisons, they had lately custodias of clerks convict, but they were not carceres unto which they committed them for their offence done, but were sent thither to be in safety (being persons found guilty) till by course of law (as it then stood) they should be delivered. Yet in one case they may as Bishops by a statute of H. 7. imprison at this day: viz. a minister of his Diocese convicted of incontinency, he may commit to a private prison, and enjoin him what strait diet or penance he thinketh fit. I think so they and their Eldership might have this authority, they would let it pass the musters. But that the hypocrisy of them may better appear (who here speak against Bishop's prisons and civil punishments) it would be asked of them, what difference (in the substance of the matter) it is, for an ecclesiastical person to commit a man to prison himself, or for their Elderships to have a beadle or Sergeant of the civil Magistrates attending on their Consistories every Court day, who both bringeth thither by force such as will not come being sent for, and carrieth such to prison as the Eldership judge to deserve it? as the use of Geneva is: or to procure governors of Bridewell to whip one of their Church that abused the Minister in speeches (sitting with his Eldership in Consistory) as not long since one of the French Church in London was used? Belike it is lawful for us to cry, Take him away, crucify him, but we may not in any case kill or punish any man ourselves: Oh that were civil authority, far be it from us.  
The argument should proceed thus: Peter killed Ananias by civil extraordinary jurisdiction, and not by his word only: although they cannot do the like. Nevertheless, by ordinary power committed to them, they may do the less: and therefore imprison for disciplining the inordinate and correction of the bad, where the magistrate imparteth to them such authority.   

The sixteenth Chapter.  
Assertion.  
THe placing of Church-officers pertaineth to the Eldership, 
Demonstration.  and also the displacing.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
They who are lawfully called from heaven to the ministery, & outwardly, by the means of men may not be displaced being blameless. 1. Timoth. 3.10. But such are the ministers, whom the Bishops do displace.  
Ergo,  
How doth this agree with the issue, 
Remonstrance.  or Assertion he taketh upon him to prove? uz. that as he hath proved (he saith) afore the Eldershippes' authority of placing, so now he proves that they have the displacing of ministers. What? even without the people's consent? Beware this be no tyranny by your own constructions: Cuius est instituere, eius est destituere, & è converso. But I pray, good Demonstrationers, doth this follow? Bishops displace men whom they ought not, because they are blameless men, Ergo, displacing of ministers belongeth to the Eldership? yet this is your reasoning in this Chapter. Your brother Martin Malapert in Thesibus, will ease both Bishops and Eldership of this labour. For he sayeth, that a minister once called may upon none occasion, by any human authority be displaced, or put from preaching. Belike it shallbe a sanctuary for him, though he preach daily treason, or commit any wickedness whatsoever: your grief is only because you with your Eldership have not the displacing of them: for if you had, it should then well be seen, how far one man differeth from another, and that the commissioners ecclesiastical are but silly fellows in comparison of you, at removing of a minister. O beware at a dead lift, (as long as you live) of half a score substantial fellows bred up at home.  
To the Minor.  
How many such are there of them, whom the Bishops have displaced?  
Numero vix totidem quot Thebarum portae, vel divit is ostia Nili: Not so many as the gates of Thebes have been ever so displaced: nay, name one and we grant all. They are othergate men than you bear the world in hand: men cankered with malice, pining away with envy of the present flourishing estate, swollen with pride and overweening of themselves, whose learning is contention, whose zeal is singularity and factious study, engendering schism and heresy in the Church. As for the difference between us and them, even so great as is between obedience and rebellion to God and the Prince: these are the men the Bishops have displaced, let them name their own selves: but his meaning is, so long as they broach their own fancies of their Church-government to the people seditiously, revile and traduce the persons of Church-governors unjustly, inveigh against our public liturgy, the laws, orders, and rites of this Church ragingly, break all orders, and the precious bond of peace and unity schismatically and wickedly, so long they are blameless, and not to be displaced. Then turn the case the other ways: imagine your Discipline were up, and a foot, and I a poor minister of that Church, and that I will not observe the order of praying, preaching, ministering of Sacraments, and marrying, prescribed unto all ministers by the Synod, (but in steed of it) either that which I do now use, or any other clean differing devised by myself: I will likewise inveigh against the injustice and tyranny of your Eldershippes and Synods, and of them who assemble there: I will confute that kind of government which myself have subscribed unto, and condemn it as a tumultuous popularity, a new fiction of man's brain, a multiplied popedom, having neither reason, practice, nor commandment for it: and yet otherways (I hope) you shall not distain me for life, or unsound doctrine: shall nevertheless be accounted blameless, and not be displaced by you? Nay, will you rest in displacing? I hold that I escape well if I escape with banishment, and so save my life, as I know to have been practised upon less occasions than these, by your Eldershippes. You will say, you have good grounds to inveigh against ours, and that we may not do so against yours, because it is holy, pure, reformed Discipline and proceeding: then here ought to be the issue, and not to be offended that you are displaced as disturbers of the peace of the Church. For I tell you we think no less evil of your government than you speak of ours: Qui hominem legibus belluam, qui legem hominibus deum praeponit, saith Aristotle 3. Polit. And therefore in that all your government is grounded upon Law-will-I, and chested up Pope-like in your Elders breasts to do as shall like them best, we hold it very tyranny, and as ill as Antichristian government.  
And thus I retort your reason:  
Whosoever be not blameless may be displaced: Those who break the peace of the Church, and charity, (as afore) are not blameless, Ergo, they may be displaced. And again: They whose calling to the ministery is not from heaven, nor outwardly lawful by means of men, they may be displaced: Your calling to the ministery in this Church of England is such, as being unlawful and Antichristian, (as you say:) Ergo, (by your own rules) you may be displaced, for you were never well placed, and as you ought to have been: Ex ore tuo teipsum judico serve nequam.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
Men careful to discharge their duties without impiety cannot be displaced: 
Demonstration.  Such are these ministers. Ergo,  
Here is a goodly praise and applauding to themselves: 
Remonstrance.  they have been careful indeed to discharge that charge, that their provincial hath laid upon them to trouble the Church.  
Your Mayor is not necessarily true: for a man may be careful to do his duty, and yet by preposterous zeal be carried to heresy and schism.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
To deprive God's people of spiritual comfort is wickedness: 
Demonstration.  To put to silence such ministers, is to deprive. Ergo,  
To put to silence such, 
Remonstrance.  is to stop the mouths of the Praecision now, as of the concision of old: of whom S. Augustine speaketh supper 34. Psal. quare in praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini? The Mayor here is as the other next afore: I have known a most lewd wretch, who preached so commendably that the people took marvelous comfort to hear him, and to be instructed by him: yet the most partial of your Elderships would not have to lerated him in the ministry.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
That which is scandalous, is an horrible sin: 
Demonstration.  To deprive the people is scandalous. Ergo,  
To the Minor.  
It is scandal taken and not given. 
Remonstrance.   
The people had better learn nothing, then learn the sin of disobedience. These reasons are as much, as if a man should affirm, none could preach well but Schismatics: Scilicet.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
They whose labours God blesseth, 
Demonstr.  cannot be displaced without impiety: such are the ministers. Ergo,  
God doth bless your such labours, no more than judas his labours, 
Remonstrance.  nor so much, who for a while preached the Gospel: yet may a bad man cast good seed into the ground. Do as they say, not as they do, saith Christ.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
That which giveth the enemy's cause to rejoice, is an offence: To displace the ministers, 
Demonstration.  giveth the enemy, etc. Ergo,  
If any rejoice in evil, let them answer for it themselves. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a fault: 
Remonstrance.  but Bishops do their duties to displace schismatics: that is but per accidens, that it is to the rejoicing of the enemy: and they will not let to rejoice, if an adulterous minister also be displaced, being glad that they may say such be among us.  
The 7. Demonstration.  
That which causeth the doers to be esteemed enemies to the Gospel, is an heinous sin: 
Demonstration.  such is the silencing of those. Ergo,  
I answer with that sentence of Tully: Non est tanta potest as in stultorum suffragijs. 
Remonstrance.  There is no such estimate, or read in a fools voice, or suffragie: They are not worthy to rule in the Church, that tender more what the ill advised say of them, than they do the peace of Christ's body the Church.  
The 8. Demonstration.  
That which letteth wickedness to come in, must needs be a sin: 
Demonstration.  To displace the ministers doth so. Ergo,  
It followeth not upon every sectary ministers displacing: 
Remonstran.   
This is a partial Syllogism, and in favour of themselves: No Sir, I doubt not but better come in their places, if they may have like maintenance.  
The 9 Demonstration.  
That which interrupteth the course of the Gospel without warrant from God's Law, or law of the land, is a sin: But to displace is so. Ergo, 
Demonstra.   
It is likely this man hath been convented for his schism, 
Remonstrance.  and turbulency of spirit, and would not be interrupted without a warrant from heaven, or the law of the land: there is statute law, and Canon law authorized by statute, to pluck up such briars and thorns of these Malcontents out from amidst the land, and no danger to interrupt thereby the course of the Gospel: most of them preach nothing but invectives against things established. Is this to preach the Gospel of peace?   

The seventeenth Chapter.  
Assertion.  
ADmonition belongeth to the Eldership. 
Demonstration.   
The 1. Demonstration.  

1 That which private men are commanded to seek unto being offended, for redress of the offence. Matth. 18.15. that is a necessary and ordinary way for those who publicly offend.  
2 That which is more available to repentance.  
3 That which maketh men more afraid to offend.  
4 That which hath a greater promise to do good.  
5 That without which all duties of charity cannot be exercised toward sinners.  
6 That which bridleth outrageous sins.   
But such is the admonition of those, who carry the name of the Church, uz. the Eldership. Ergo, admonition longeth to them.  
One Minor serveth right well for all these propositions, 
Remonstrance.   
That the venerable Eldership who carry the Church, and bear it up as Atlas with his shoulders Caelum humeris tor quet stellis ardentibus aptum. Must give this admonition in public proclamation.  
My answer hereunto is: It is a sacrilegious robbery to give and appropriate that unto the Eldership which is proper to the ministers of the Gospel, and such as exercise lawful authority in the Church: it maketh as much for Presbyter john, or john's Eldership, as any of your Elderships in the Church. Besides, I might traverse the mayor Propositions. As for example, Private reconciliation is commanded, and yet no necessary or ordinary way to be publicly established in the Church. And if admonition be necessary, doth it hereof follow it must be done, and only done by such an Eldership?   

The eighteenth Chapter.  
Assertion.  
SVspension from the Lords supper, 
Demonstration.  or from an office in the Church, must be by the Eldership.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
Whatsoever is enjoined as a duty to be done by every Christian man, if he leave it undone, he is to be compelled by the governor of the Church, Luke 14.17.23. But if a man's brother have any thing against him, Matth. 5.24. he is to be compelled to leave his gift: Ergo, Separation from the Lords supper is warranted by the word.  
This Demonstration is neither compound, 
Remonstrance.  nor simple Syllogism, nor in any mood and figure, nor proveth the Assertion any way: for must it needs follow, he must be suspended: Ergo, by the Eldership. Then thus: The people must have Sacraments ministered and preaching: ergo, the Eldership must do it. If you say, it is disposed according to any mood and figure, why is there more in the conclusion then in the premises? or show in which 1, 2, or 3. figure you have concluded, that separation by the eldership is warrantable by the word.  
If you say the Syllogism is hypothetical, why do you assume the consequent to conclude the antecedent, which is a Paralogism? or in very deed assuming the consequent, conclude nothing to the purpose, or a new and strange thing: Ergo, separation from the supper of the Lord is to be done by the Eldership, or is warranted by the word. In those places of Luke they were compelled to come in to the supper, yea, the halt, the lame, etc. And can you hereof prove that such as are lame in soul must be suspended and kept from the Supper? If you have no better reasons then this for suspension, it willbe lamely proved to be of use in the Church: the parable rather maketh against it. As for the reason itself, I have lived long, and yet never heard such an one made, except it were in mockery.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
If the commandment, Give not holy things to dogs, 
Demonstration.  is neither properly understood of infidels, nor excommunicate men, then is it understood for separation of the unworthy: But the first is true, for the jews knew that holy things belonged not to such: and the commandment had been needless. Ergo, Suspension is warranted.  
To the Antecedent and the sequel.  
Why not as properly to be understood of them, 
Remonstrance.  sith it is allegorically to be understood of whomsoever? We deny not the matter, but this reason doth simply prove it: Look Erastus, and yourselves will mislike it. If the jews knew that this commandment belonged not to infidels, nor to excommunicate persons, they knew more than was true: for if infidels and persons excommunicate be not dogs from whom holy things must be kept, then much less are such as do not so deeply offend, to be accounted such dogs as from whom holy things should be kept.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
If some deserve excommunication, and some Suspension, 
Demonstra.  then is this course good: But some do, etc. Ergo.  
The course is good, if it be held by them that indeed have authority and judgement in the Church: if by the Eldership, 
Remonstrance.  it is to be withheld.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
The course prescribed in the shadow must be in the body, 
Demonstration.  in respect of substance in the spiritual cleansing for corporal uncleanness they were separated. Ergo: for some sins now.  
The Argument holdeth not from the ceremony to the Gospel. 
Remonstran.   
The Eldership did not separate under the law, ergo, Eldership not under the gospel: for it was the priests under the law that had judgement, & direction of such cleansings: but yourselves make not your Elders, to answer unto Priests, but either unto Levites, or I know not what governors under the law.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
The Church cannot suffer a man vehemently suspected to continue in a public function: 
Demonstration.  But the church cannot displace such a man at the first Ergo, he must be separated for a time.  
Were it not for the ambiguity of the word Church, 
Remonstrance.  which with you is always the Church Aldermen: all this may be granted.  
The 6. Demonstration.  
That which was commanded to be done to the Priest, 
Demonstrat.  being a Leper, must be done to the Church officer, being an offender: But the one was to be separated. Ergo, the other.  
Though it may be lawful to make proportionable arguments from the law to the Gospel: 
Remonstrance.  you may not conclude Identitatem, the one by the other, for that is judaisme. And by this reason you would make your Elderships to answer to the Priest under the law: they are as gladius Delphicus, they serve to all uses, and answer to all types and figures of the old Testament.  
For the profitable use of Suspension  

1 That which keepeth the godly in obedience is profitable. 
Demonstration.   
2 That which removeth appearance of sin.  
3 That which declareth to the world, that the Church of God is careful to practise.  
4 That which exerciseth the Church in actions of religion.  
5 That which is a special means to procure the Lord in mercy to continue his word unto his Church, that is profitable for the same. Such is Separation. Ergo,   
You might have bound these five Demonstrations in a bundle, and thrown them all away. 
Remonstrance.   
The question is not whether the Church in discretion may separate and suspend: but whether your fashion eldership may separate or suspend: not of our rightful use, but of your abuse. The best is, such stuff standeth you in little charges.   

The nineteenth Chapter.  
Assertion.  
EXcommunication may not be done but upon great and weighty occasions. 
Demonstration.   
2 It may not be done by any one man, but by the Eldership, the whole Church consenting thereunto.  
The first Assertion needeth no demonstration: 
Remonstrance.  but because the Demonstrator saith our church doth excommunicate for a sixpenie matter, I answer, be it for an halfpenny in the very original, yet it is not for that but for the contumacy, aggravating the fault & injustice: as a man for default of answering (perhaps afalse plea) may have an attachment, or proclamation of rebellion or outlawry come out against him. Quo minor res, eo maior contumacia. I would ask this question: if a man in their Church will not (being of good ability) give to the poor or to the minister by any means, and yet will thrust in among them, will they not for this contumacy at last excommunicate him?  
1. Demon. for the first Assertion.  
That which Christ hath ordained for the last remedy against sin, 
Demonstration.  may not be used but upon extremity: so is excommunication. 18. Math. 15. Ergo.  
This is no issue between us and you: 
Remonstrance.  we say wilful disobedience is greatest sin. If a man (do what you can) will not appear, though (perhaps) if he did, he be guiltless, shall he not at last be excommunicate? The Lawyers call it ultimum in iurisdictione non facere.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That which giveth a man over to Satan, may not be used but in great extremity: 
Demonstration.  but excommunication so doth. 1. Cor. 5.5. Ergo.  
To the Minor.  
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 
Remonstrance.  To deliver one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, was but a temporary chastisement and of extraordinary power, as is very probable: though I doubt not but he which clave non errant is excommunicated and cut from the Church, is deeply in the power of Satan.  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which a man will do in cutting off his hand, that must be done in excommunication: 
Demonstration.  but a man will not do that but in extremity. Ergo.  
Yet it is to be feared that if excommunication were in some of your hands, 
Remonstrance.  it would be always drawing against mean faults, if the persons did not like you: I know your disposition where I dwell.  
The 4. Demonstration.  
That which is contrary to natural affection, and worketh the trembling of the very heart, 
Demonstration.  may not be done but in extremity: So is excommunication. Ergo.  
Why are not you afraid in your own cause, sith many of your crew stand excommunicate, 
Remonstrance.  and yet like profane Esau or Lucian the dog, make a jest of it? if you esteem it not because Bishops do inflict it, we will and may upon better ground contemn yours that lay elders determine, whensoever you set up shop.  
The 2. Assertion of the Demonstration.  
Excommunication must be done by the Elders, 
Demonstration.  not by one man.  
The 1. Demonstration.  
That which Christ commanded to be done by the Church, may not be done by one man: but Christ commanded so 18. Mat. 15. Ergo.  
What force is in your Mayor? 
Remonstrance.  The Church must pray for princes, Ergo no one man may: Christ commanded at one time the Apostles to preach, Ergo all must preach together, and no one of them.  
To the Minor.  
This is most absurd: for than he commanded to be done and overdone, that is both done and undone, viz. both by the Presbytery, and then by the whole Congregation, for so you teach. If in those words, Tell the Church, the Church is the Eldership, than the rest of the Congregation hath not any warrant to give consent or to deal in it, which elsewhere you require. For when the Church that Christ committed it unto, have once determined the matter, what have those to do further that were not meant nor thought of by him? And if he that tells the Eldership any thing, tells it to the Church, what need any more be acquainted with that belongs not to them? For if they be of the Church, they know it already: Et qui certus est, amplius non debet certiorari: if they be not, then let them pacify themselves: but if the whole Congregation be theremeant, then hath not the Eldership therein authority given by that place. And if the Church be the Eldership, than the one is the other: idem numero convertuntur: so that he that is not of the Eldership is none of the Church. To avoid these absurdities, they will say the Eldership is called the Church, because it hath herein the authority of the Church: This is strange. Shall they be the Church itself, that have herein the Church's authority? then he is a king that in some thing hath the king's authority. Well let it go: Those that with us do excommunicate have the Church's authority also: and let them show a reason out of the word of God, why the Church may not give her authority to one, aswell as to many? If this be one of your essential points, that the Church cannot give it to one: for shame find some Scripture for it. If you say that the Church being a collective must needs be more than one: true, but yet one or a few may have the authority of many committed to them, as one man may be Syndic or Legate for a whole common weal. If it cannot be represented but by a number, than two may serve: else show by how many, and both of these by Scripture: or confess your government not to be grounded on Scripture. And when such authority is given to many, show that any thing may be done, except every of them agree: for if you say as you practise, that the most voices overcome the fewer: show Scripture for that, and how the odd voice (that makes the greater number) hath such a power, as to make that to be the determination of the Church, which otherwise were not so. And if in such case, one odd voice (perhaps of a very odd fellow) may have such force, why may not a bishops voice be of as great force in this matter, where the Church commits it to him? That by this place the power general of excommunication is not established, may thus appear. For if this be the very warrant and commission that it hath, then may none excommunication proceed in any other matter then upon private offences originally and only by the same degrees that there be propounded: otherwise the commission were violated. That an Eldership, (as is fancied) should have that power here given to them, cannot be intended: for if Christ had ordained them afore this time, than their authorities whatsoever, were (no doubt) given withal unto them: but we read no such thing. The policy of the jewish Synagogue had still his continuance, and Christ had not yet settled the Church which he was in gathering. That by these words at this time it was erected, it could not be: for neither were the officers afore ordained of which it consisteth, viz. of Elderly doctor, and Pastor: undoctorly and unpastorally Elder, and of deacons: nor yet were they here ordained. For the Apostles could never out of this single word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church have picked this great variety and distinction of officers, and their authority which they had never heard of afore. But Christ speaketh hereof to them as of a thing known, whereunto in like case resort might be had. But if it were here appointed consisting of Christ and his Apostles, than was Christ's headshippe of the Church taken from him, and he ranged with his Apostles as his colleagues in the Eldership. Then also must they either say that Christ was not perpetual precedent in such eldership, but as it fell to his lot or choice (as they now practise in Synods and conference, albeit the Pastor in their Elderships be the Precedent perpetual) or they must have a perpetual precedent in all their Synodical assemblies to be conformable to this, being the best and first. It will also hereof follow, if your Elders mind to be successors of the Apostles in an eldership here, they must be ministers of the word and Sacraments, as the Apostles and all the first Elders were. Then also cannot your Eldership have any other parts of authority than Christ at this their institution here bestowed upon them, as namely you must abandon ordinations, depositions, and other government. Lastly, if he meant to erect an office or authority that afore was not, the words would have been praeceptive and dispositive for such purpose, not imperative, commanding only a course to be holden before such a tribunal, as was not afore erected or heard of: for it would thus or in some like form have been conceived: let such and such Church governors be erected, to whom you may always tell it.  
If therefore to avoid these inconveniences it willbe said, that he made allusion to the jewish Sanhedrim or College of 72. in use with them, and well known to them, with insinuation, that as the jews had, so he would have established in his Church, which should after be gathered of the jews and Gentiles: Besides that, it is likely the name of Sanhedrim would have been retained, rather than changed for a name of so strange signification (as to understand an Eldership by this word Church) especially Christ having before in an other matter used the very word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: 
Matth. 5.  I must then also tell you, that the insinuation wrapped up in one single word, is over secret and mystical for a man to build his faith and conscience upon, for such a solemn, perpetual, and necessary Consistories establishing, that is endued with so manifold and large authorities. But if it were meant that the Sampler (a thing well known) should be followed wholly, then is the Eldership quite overthrown. For not only the Sanhedrim had (as is notorious) but this Church whatsoever (that is meant in this place) must have determination of all weighty matters, aswell civil as Ecclesiastical. That this Church here must so have, it is manifest, in that this place containeth a course and process to be holden with a brother, who shall in any matter scandalise or offend them. But the most offences betwixt man and man grow not upon matter Ecclesiastical, but upon matters of this life, mere civil causes. Then by this reckoning (even under a Christian magistrate) must the Eldership have a set Court for all matters aswell civil as Ecclesiastical, as the Sanhedrim did at jerusalem, lest otherwise the wounds be far greater than the plaster can cover. But this dealing in civil matters they seem to detest in others, howsoever underhand they will embrace it, or dispense with it in themselves. The Sanhedrim were ordinary judges of the highest Court of that nation, for all politic temporal causes besides Ecclesiastical. There were 72. of it, there was no more such in that land, and it consisted of the high Priest, other Priests, Levites, and the chief and gravest of the people. If therefore they will conform theirs unto this, then are parish Elderships abroad, and all Courts of Record at Westminster supped up at once in this one Consistory of Sanhedrim, and all Ecclesiastical men shallbe for ever at liberty to meddle with matters civil as in their own right, which were absurd. Besides, the Sanhedrim made laws, as john 9.22. they directed Commissions forth, as to Paul in the Acts for attaching and imprisoning, which the patrons of Elderships will pretend not to like of. They had none ordination, no placing, nor displacing of Priests or Levites, nor yet censures of excommunication, for any thing I can yet read sufficient to satisfy me. Shall then the Eldership have no such authorities? If it be said the two former were corruptions, First I would have it proved: then I answer that Caluine maketh the whole Sanhedrim itself but a corruption of that state. Lastly they must grant either that Christ alluded not unto it at all, nor made it any Sampler for his Church, or else made it a perfect sampler entirely, and always even under a Christian magistrate to be followed: for we find none exceptions in Scripture. How then it may be followed in some part, and despised in an other, let the first devisers discuss.  
The 2. Demonstration.  
That which S. Paul enjoined the Church to do when they came together, may not be done by one man: 
Demonstrat.  But he commanded them to excommunicate the incestuous person. Ergo.  
There is an equivocation in the word Do in the Mayor, and it is false, 
Remonstrance.  as is showed: But I distinguish upon the Minor. Paul commanded them only to denounce and publish, not to excommunicate. The words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. I as absent in body but present in spirit, have already decreed and judged, as if I were present in the Name of our Lord jesus Christ, etc. from whom this branch of his authority is derived. Ius excommunicandi, the right of excommunication was in himself: Howbeit the words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, You being congregated or assembled together, and my spirit with the power, etc. argueth the presence of the people, a full Congregation to denounce an excommunication, not the right or interest to excommunicate in all. As for the presence of the people, it is required now at denunciation. But what, were all the people here of the Presbytery? or had they none such? For here all are mentioned to whom he writ. How doth this prove the Eldership to have such power, or to be necessary in every Church, if they had none Eldership?  
The 3. Demonstration.  
That which hath need of greatest advise and authority, 
Demonstrat.  is not to be done by one man: But so is excommunication. Ergo.  
To the Mayor.  
Many instances may be framed to this: Preaching of the Gospel, 
Remonstrance.  prophesying, 1. Corinth. 14. ministration of Baptism and the Lords supper, supreme authority and judgement of a King, and many other matters of great importance, cannot be done but by one man at one time.  
To the Minor.  
Excommunication is not greater than absolution, which is also to be done by one man. To save a soul is greater than to destroy a soul, and yet by the preaching of Peter being one man, were added unto the Church three thousand souls. The work of our redemption is but one man's work, & the greatest work. You have no skill of the old rule nullum proprium datur in gradu superlativo. And may not one man's advise directed by law, 
5. Topic.  be more sound than an hundredth running on head, and but otherwise unlearned?  
The 4. Demonstration.  
They must excommunicate who are to deal in other parts of discipline: 
Demonstrat.  but the other are not exercised by one. Ergo neither this.  
This is obscurum per obscurius: or to beg that which is in question still. This defaceth themselves: 
Remonstrance.  for Deacons deal in other parts of their discipline, and yet being discipliners are none of the Eldership. And I never heard afore they might excommunicate. Cathechizing, preaching, teaching, public praying, baptizing, and celebrating the Supper, blessing of marriages, etc. are parts of the Discipline, yet exercised by the doctor alone, or pastor alone.  
To the Minor.  
There is none of these offices which are mainteinable in our Church, but may be executed by one, if it shall seem best for the commodity and service of the Church.  
The 5. Demonstration.  
As it was amongst the jews, so it must be in the Church for ever, 
Demonstrat.  as it appeareth by this: for it is translated from them to us: as the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being by corrupt imitation called Sanhedrim by the rabbins doth import, and had nothing ceremonial in it: But it was executed by the Church amongst them, and not by one, john 9.22. Ergo the Church is to excommunicate and not one man.  
Here the Demonstrator leaveth off his Christianity, and will become a jew, 
Remonstrance.  and erect the jewish policy of governing the Church.  
To the Mayor.  
By the jews you may mean either the jewish Synagogue, or the Apostles and disciples in jewrie: The later you cannot mean, for the practice of their Religion, and the outward profession was not authorized. If you mean the former, say plainly you mean Sanhedrim or Synagoga: if Sanhedrim, that either as political only, or political and Ecclesiastical together: and that again either as the first institution supposed by some, or as the depravation was at the coming of Christ, for what was that else but a mixed and compound Presbytery, as in Christ's time? And then Christ should send us to the Synagogue, which Caluin liketh not, and we should require a gift and an altar, as it is Matth. 5.24. v. So this is the greatest improbability in the world, viz. that as it was amongst the old or latest jews, so it must be in Christ's Church. Now unto the reason of the Mayor: That it is translated unto us from them, etc. You must prove the translation, and show in one demonstration, time, place, etc., or any other circumstance, to evince it or prove the erection or ordination of this discipline in stead of that. Otherwise to say there was an allusion unto that, or a respective looking of Christ upon that, is but a mere collusion with God's truth. To say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was a session of 72. with the prince, etc., was the Image of your imagined Presbytery, especially a corruption, and not to be found in Scripture but in the Thalmud, is to carry away the matter with a bold forehead, and impudent outfacing. This I have also spoken unto afore in this Chapter.  
To the Minor.  
This is not ad idem: For it is one thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, another thing with us to be excommunicate: as for the place of john 9 it deciphreth not whether one or many had authority to cast out of the Synagogue, but that a decree was so made that he should be cast out, not telling how, or by how many it was to be executed.  
Finally, in saying the Sanhedrim had nothing ceremonial, belike it had the more judicial or moral: whether it were the one or other, it is questionless how it was a corruption of a better thing, but carried not the resemblance of the thing which you would have, as is sufficiently afore showed. If judicial, we are no jews, and therefore not tied to it: if Moral, then show the Commandment, and retain it not by piece meele, but either wholly, or if but in part, say you break therein the Moral law of God.  
The 6. Allegation or Demonstration.  
Cyprian lib. 3. ep. 10. would do nothing in his charge without counsel of Elders, 
Demonstrat.  and consent of people.  
His meaning is: he would do nothing, me a privatim sententia, 
Remonstrance.  by any domestical determinations, but with the privity and counsel and consent of the clergy: that is, but in consistory openly: or which was consulted and concluded upon in Synod publicly before, so that nothing should be prejudicial. But these were Ministers that assisted him a Bishop.  
The 7. Demonstration, or Allegation.  
The Elders and other officers have power to absolve as well as the Bishops. 
Demonstrat. Cypr. epist. 14. Remonstrance. Lib. 3. epist. 14.   
You quote not the book: as for the place, it maketh against the presumption of your Elders or any pastoral Elders, who gave ius communicationis without the leave of the Bishop, as certain then did. As for the words manus impositionem Episcopi & cleri, it strengtheneth the hand of authority in a Bishop, who is perpetual Precedent of his clergy.  
The 8. Allegation or Demonstration.  
For as much as absolution longeth unto all, I dare not do it. 
Demonstrat. Idem epist. 19 Remonstrance.   
Cyprian saith, Praeiudicare ego & solum mihi rem communem vendicare non audeo. In case the absolution of certain did concern many as well as himself, he would not do that to restore the offenders to their state.  
The 9 Allegation or Demonstration.  
If there be any that hath done such a fault that is to be put away from partaking prayer of the Church, etc. 
Demonstrat. Tertul. apolog. cap. 39  there do bear rule certain approved Elders of the Church.  
The words, Summum futuri judicij praeiudicium est, 
Remonstrance.  si quis ita deliquerit ut à communicatione orationis & conventus, & omnis sancti commercij relegetur: president probati quique seniores honorem istum non pretio sed testimonio adepti. The words following give not the censure of excommunication to these Elders or arbiters any time, much less perpetually, if at that time of persecution they had a censure over manners. But let it be proved that they were not Ministers of the word and Sacraments, but mere annual officers, and without maintenance of the Church, as yours are.  
The 10. Allegation, or Demonstration. 
Demonstrat.   
It helpeth much to make the party ashamed, that he be excommnnicate by the whole Church: 
Augustin lib. 3. contra. epistol. Parmen. the Donat.  as also in his books of Baptism against Donatists often.  
Tunc timore percutitur & pudore sanatur, cum ab universa Ecclesia anathematizatum se cernens, 
Remonstrance.  so are the words: when the whole Church shall expel and blame him by their judgement also, as the magistrate by his own censure.  
The 11. Allegation or Demonstration.  
The Elders have interest in other censures, 
Demonstrat. Hierom epist. 1. ad Demetriaden.  and the Church itself in excommunication.  
The words are, We speak not of all, but of such as sometimes the Church itself blameth: 
Remonstrance.  whom sometime it casts away, and against whom the censure of Bishops & Presbyterorum viz. of Ministers is sharp. Here is no special mention of excommunication nor interest of any unto it, much less the interest of lay Elders. We grant that Bishops had the assistance of Ministers about them, both in censures and other matters and so may have: but this argueth not your Elderships' interest, nor that a Bishop alone may not do it, where the order of the whole Church hath so received it.  
The 12. Demonstration, or Allegation. 
Demonstrat. Bucer de reg. Christ. li. 1. ca 9   
Paul accuseth the Corinthians, because the whole Church had not excommunicate the incestuous person.  
The words are, 
Remonstrance.  Quod non incestum illum consortio suo eiecissent: Because the Corinthians were swollen, and had kept company with such an incestuous person. But if the whole Church should do it, than there needs none Eldership, neither is this their authority: otherwise the Church might not usurp it from them. And if it be the whole Churches, the Eldership may not prejudicate them by their determinations aforehand: For if they disagree, whether shall stand in force?  
The 13. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstrat. P. Mart. 1. cor. 5.   
The Elders had the government in excommunication.  
P. Martyr saith, there were two sorts of Elders: 
Remonstrance.  the one which did teach and minister the Sacraments, and did govern with the Bishops: which Elders we now have, who exercise the censure of excommunication as they are called unto it. As for the second, they were not unlike our Church wardens or Sidemen, if any such were, which I rather believe not.  
The 14. Allegation or Demonstration. 
Demonstrat. Idem ibidem.   
It is dangerous to permit to one man.  
He doth not say, It is unlawful for one to do it, 
Remonstrance.  neither can it be dangerous in open Consistory, being directed by law when, wherefore, and against whom to do it: for so it is less dangerous, then if many had to do in it, going only of head, and without all form or direction of law, as is used by your Elderships.  
The 15. Allegation, or Demonstration. 
Demonstrat. Caluin instit. li. 4. c. 11. sect. 6.   
It openeth a way to tyranny, and abrogateth the Ecclesiastical Senate ordained by Christ.  
It is false: For under a Christian Prince and pastoral Elders the spiritual jurisdiction is exercised lawfully without tyranny. 
Remonstrance.  Why bring you not Cartwr. also to prove it? Caluin was the first in all the world that erected such a Senate.  
The 16. Allegation.  
The Bishops of themselves if they excommunicate, do it ambitiously contrary to the Canons; See Bucer against Gropper, & Ephes. 4. de animi cura, 
Demonstrat. Idem Instit. 4. li. 12. cap. Sect. 6.  and Swinglius in Ecclesiast.  
According to your quotation, I find no such place in Caluin. 
Remonstrance.  When you allege thus in gross, you must not look to be answered in particular: As for the Bishop's excommunication, it is according to S. Paul's practice, 1. Corinth. 5. where he excommunicated Hymeneus and Alexander, 1. Tim. 1. ca  
The 17. Allegation. 
Demonstrat. See the Abstract pag. 165.   
It is forbidden by that filthy puddle the Canon law.  
That is filthily spoken. 
Remonstrance.  If the Abstracter had understood the laws he bringeth, he might have found an answer where he found the objection: But is this with our Demonstrator a good argument, The Canon law forbiddeth it, Ergo unlawful? It so forbiddeth priests marriage, and the Communion in both kinds: Are they therefore unlawful?  
The 1. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
The right of excommunication was in S. Paul and not in the rest. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
He gave only the direction, otherwise if they had not done it, he had remained unexcommunicate.  
If they never had denounced and published the excommunication, yet S. Paul had nevertheless excommunicated him, 
Remonstrance with reply.  and also the chastisement had proceeded on him. And might they lawfully have disobeyed the Apostles judgement, or crossed his determination?  
The 2. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Christ gave Peter and every Apostle power to bind and loose, which the interpreters expound excommunication. 
Demonstrat.  Matth. 18.  
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
That was power of preaching in denouncing God's judgement, or pronouncing his mercies, not of this action.  
It is to be understood of both: 
Remonstrance, with reply.  the words are almost all one john 20.22. v. Matth. 16.20. v. and Matth. 18. Albeit the place includeth that binding and losing which is by preaching of the word, it doth not exclude binding and losing, which is in excommunication and absolution by power of the word: See Chrysostome super Matth. 16. What impudency is this, to deny that an Apostle had authority to excommunicate, who could take life and sight away from an offender? But see how he cotrarieth himself. For if this be not meant of excommunication, why do you afore bring it to prove that your Eldership is thereby authorized to excommunicate?  
The 3. Objection of the Demonstrator.  
Paul did excommunicate Hymenaeus and Alexander. 
Demonstrat.   
Answer of the Demonstrator.  
That is, he was but moderator of the action, or did pronounce it: even so Ambrose and the fathers did.  
Nay, 
Remonstrance with reply.  he did it without consent of the Church of Ephesus: for there was some more castigation understood and emplied in those words, 1. Timoth. 1.20. v. I have delivered them to Satan. The argument doth hold good, S. Paul 1. Cor. 5. did it, and seconded the action: Ergo S. Paul was alone a doer in the action. If without Scripture or reason a man may surmise and add what he list, and when he list, than we may also aswell say that the whole senate of Rome consented with him in that action. You find no consent of Eldership or people in Ambroses' action requested. Either leave falsifying and mangling, or give over demonstrating.   

Conclusion.  
IF the Demonstrator cannot, neither as yet hath shown by the light of nature, clearness of reason, report of history, allegation of Council, testimony of fathers, ground of law, evidence of Scripture, nor ever shall be able to prove by necessary demonstration any exact platteforme for particularities of government and external Church policy that Christ hath prescribed: any such four Tetrarchies of speculative Doctor, who must teach and not apply: any such abstractive Pastor, who must exhort and not teach: any such governing Elder, who may neither exhort nor teach: any such Deacon, whose deaconshippe is distribution to the poor only, that is, a mere corporal office and no attendance on the ministery: any such tumultuary election to be perpetuated by the common people, and their approbation of ministers election: any such profanity of ordination and censuring by lay Elders: any such Democracie in the Church, or equality of all to be parish Bishops: any such indefatigable continual residence of Pastors on the place without natural or legal dispensation for absence upon any occasion: any such laical or mixed Aldermanshippe or Eldership over all men's doctrine, manners and matters in the Church: any such censure of admonition, suspension, excommunication, by a company of Church Aldermen, as in their own right: Then let the Demonstrator blush and be ashamed of so many fabulous narrations, absurd collections out of text, brutish reasons so many, and so many falsifications of authorities, childish paralogisms and anapodictical or undemonstrable demonstrations, and let him be touched in conscience, and repent of all his slanderous and calumnious speeches, wherewith he hath blasphemed this Church of England.  
And in the name of God let our Church be governed still by rules of God's word, by such canons of the Apostles and Counsels, and provincial constitutions and ordinances, subordinate to the word of God, ratified by our most Christian and virtuous Prince.  
Let us thank God for our governors, Archbishops, Bishops, and superior ministers and magistrates, whose offices and equity of the offices are in the word, and continued practice of the Church hitherto: and let the inferior ministers of what name or calling soever, be governed by them as law prescribeth.  
Let the examination be by the Ordinaries and Diocesans of men eligible and ordinable, who know more than a thousand unlearned.  
Let the ordination be by the imposition of the Bishops, and other pastoral Elders and ministers hand.  
Let the execution of their offices be still with diligence in preaching, exhorting, ministering of the Sacraments, providing for the poor, as God giveth ability.  
Last of all, let the exercise of the whole ecclesiastical discipline be put in use by word of admonition or censure of suspension or excommunication, where need is, by those able governors whom God, the Prince, Synod, and Parliament have put in trust withal: and let us hold on one and the same tenor of doctrine and discipline, which (maugre this wooden Demonstrator and T.C. 
Demost. 1. Olynth.  that is trifling curiosity) we have held. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 would all were well for every man's sake.  
Laus Deo.    

Errata.  
Fault. Correction. In the Preface pag. 3. line 24.  equinoction equivocation. P. 5. lin. 12. deal ergo.  P. 13. li. 6. demonstrate demonstration. P. 20. li. 6. 20. two. P. 25. li. 31. Syndicts Syndics. P. 26. li. 20. any some one. ibi. li. 32. ordiantion ordination. P. 27. li. 21. members numbers. P. 33. li. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 P. 37. li. 34. revenge him reveage himself. P. 49. li. 11. demises devices. Ibi. mark example epistle. P. 53. li. 21. whole while. P 72. li. 33. breed bred. P. 75. li. 6. is the is in the. P. 77. li. 16. lay ministering lay unministring. Ibi. li. 22.6.1. 1. and 6. P. 81. li. 26. low lower. Ibi. li. 38. columned continued. P. 83. li. 32. run not run riot. P. 87. li. 37. Irenaeus Grinaeus. P. 109. li. 5. unliable unable. P. 110. li. 26. sense it sense as it. P. 128. li. 33. by to P. 138. li. 18. Cicester Chichester. P. 147. li. 11. preach practice P. 164. li. 34. posuerit poesis erit. P. 166. li. 3.72. 72. Evangelists. P. 167. li. 14. Tragelapsus Tragelaphus. P. 176. li. 28. were come were to come. P. 177. li. 6. Papists, Popish. P. 108. li. 22. they they of the faction P. 201. li. 26. did had.