A CATHOLIC CONFERENCE BETWEEN SIR TADY Mac. Mareall a popish priest of Waterforde, and Patrick Plain a young student in Trinity College by Dublin in Ireland.  
Wherein is delivered the certain manner of execution that was used upon a popish Bishop, and a popish Priest, that for several matters of Treason were executed at Dublin the first of February, now last past. 1611.  Strange to be related, credible to be believed, and pleasant to be perused. 
By Barnaby Rich, Gent. Servant to the Kings most excellent Majesty.  Malui me divitem esse quam vocari. 
LONDON Printed for Thomas adam's.  
1612.   

TO THE HIGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE HENRY, THE Most Royal Heir apparent, to the united Kingdoms of great BRITAIN, FRANCE, and IRELAND. etc.  
MOst worthy and renowned PRINCE, I am in hope it shall seem no presumption, to offer this my unlettered diligence to the sight and view of your Highness, the cause especially belonging to the setting forth of God's glory, and after a certain manner, doth very nearly concern the service of your royal Father, of whose Christian inclination to plant piety, and to relieve innocency, the world hath had long experience. To none more rather than to your Highness therefore belongeth these mine endeavours, whom nature and rare virtues with liberal mind hath adorned with singular endowments: and education again furnished with knowledge and exquisite learning belonging to a Prince. May it now please your Grace, myself having here (according to my little skill) stood in defence of our religion against the eager assaults of perverse and malicious papists: Although I must confess, with more brevity than the ampleness of the matter, or the necessity of the cause required: I am therefore most humbly to crave pardon of your Highness, for passing of those bounds that custom prescribeth in that case: yet if there were no further cause to press your Highness, for the Patronage of so good a purpose this might suffice: It is meant for the glory of God, but besides this inducement, there is yet one other especial enforcement to lead me to this onset namely when in that infortunate Country of Ireland, the Pope's Vermin (your royal Father's mortal enemies) have such scope and liberty, that they draw the people after them, to run headlong into that extreme perdition, both of body and soul, and into that horrible downfall of disobedience both to God and their Prince.  
Now where their resteth so much presumption in Priests to Impugn the sword of government, there must be courage in Princes to defend their own. I will wade no deeper, but in all humble and submissive manner will leave these lines to your Gracious view. And thus laying my hands under your highness feet will rest.  
Your Grace's Soldier ever more devoted to do your highness service BARNABY RICH   

A catholic CONFERENCE BETWEEN SIR TADY MAC. MAREALL A Popish Priest of Waterforde, And Patrick Plain, a young student of Trinity College by Dublyne, in Ireland.  Tady 
I Am glad Patrick, we have slipped the rest of our company, we may now confer between ourselves, and no man to molest us.  Patrick. 
I thank God Sir Tady, I have nothing to say that I care who doth hear, and therefore in company or out of company all is one to me.  Ta. 
And I am indifferent too for that, but because you asked me whether I had forsaken my spiritual function or nay, what was your meaning in that demand?  Pa. 
Nothing but this ruffling suit of apparel, that I see on your back, with your gilt Rapier and Dagger hanging by your side, methinks it is more gentlemanlike than priestlike, and this makes me to think you have given up your order, and that you are become the same in profession, that you make show to be by your attire.  Ta. 
Alas Patrick necessity hath no law, it is not my cause alone that is driven to this distress, there be many hundreds in Ireland besides myself, that are glad to disguise themselves from the rigour of those laws that have been lately contrived and pronounced against us:  Pa. 
I do not know what laws they be that you do term to be so rigorous, I hear of no laws that do exact any bloody executions or any other tragical tyrannies, as burning, massacring murdering, torturing, or any other such unchristianlike cruelties:  Ta. 
Do you not hear of the Proclamation now lately published through the whole Realm of Ireland, that is set forth against Catholics, either to enforce them against their consciences, or to hazard themselves into unknown danger:  Pa. 
If your cause of complaint proceeded but from that, I see you can exclaim upon light occasion, and could you but call to remembrance the persecutions, the tortures and torments, that from time to time hath been prosecuted by poplings, against the true professors of the Gospel, and that you were but handled, as you handled them: you had then cause indeed to complain for somewhat.  Ta. 
And do you think our causes to be so light, when we shall be compelled against our consciences?  Pa. 
And when your Pope takes upon him to depose Kings, to interdict Realms, to authorize rebellion, to dispense with subjects for their obedience to their sovereign, do you not think it high time for Princes to look about them?  Ta. 
And I think as high time for us to look to ourselves, but Catholics I can tell you, are neither children nor fools, they will not be easily dashed out with a Proclamation.  Pa. 
Belike they do think to dash out the Proclamation in this disguised sort to keep themselves unknown.  Ta. 
You need not doubt but that we mean to shift for ourselves, and not to run into wilful danger, so long as we may prevent it.  Pa. 
But do you think that this disguising of yourselves, will serve your turn to prevent it?  Ta. 
It hath served our turn for forty years together, & why should it not do so still.  Pa. 
Because these matters will be more narrowly looked unto, and if you remember yourself well, there is an edict in the proclamation that every justice of assize shall give it in charge to the jury that must both make inquiry and present it.  Ta. 
But from whence will you fetch your jurates that will present against Catholics, you may well fetch them from Geneus, but they will be very hardly found in Ireland.  Pa. 
Why do your jurates of Ireland make so little account of an oath that they will forswear themselves?  Ta 
What account should they make of an oath that is taken to the prejudice of one Catholic to another, when they have so many dispensations in a readiness, and do know where they may be absolved for more oaths in one hour, than they be able to swear in seven years.  Pa. 
If dispensations be so ready as you speak of, how comes it to pass, that in every corporate town in Ireland, the Mayor and Sheryves had sometimes rather to go to prison then to take the oath of obedience to the King?  Ta. 
the Mayor and Sheryves of every town corporate, is enjoined for that hour to the service of the prince, and how can a man more honestly express his zeal to the pope, then flatly to deny his service to his prince▪ I say that Catholic that will offer himself to prison in such a case (as yearly they do almost in every town) is worthy to attain that estimation that he himself doth so much desire?  Pa. 
And what is that to be accounted a reble, a traitor, and a false hearted villain to his prince.  Ta. 
No sir he doth it out of the love he beareth to the Pope, & therefore amongst Catholics to be beloved, honoured, esteemed, cherished, and to be reputed for a patron, a protector, and a demi saint so long as he liveth, and after his death to be canonised, numbered and registered in the Pope's Calendar.  Pa. 
Why then ●o commit a papist to prison, is rather a grace then a disgrace unto him.  Ta. 
I tell you it is a glory unto him, he doth rejoice in it, he doth triumph in it, he doth know himself to be renowned by it.  Pa. 
But doth your townsmen that be thus ill affected to their prince, endure any great penury during the time of their imprisonment?  Ta. 
Now God and our blessed Lady defend it, no sir, they live in pleasure, they lie well, they fare well, they are frequented by their friends, and rather than they should live in lack, the whole city where they dwell will contribute towards their charges.  Pa. 
But is not this a gracious clemency in a sovereign, that will suffer those corporations to hold or enjoy any liberties or privileges, that are thus opposite to himself and repugnant to his laws?  Ta. 
Speak not of clemency Patrick, where the priests that should sacrifice for the sins of the people are constrained to live in a disguised sort, but not in open show:  Pa. 
And by this counterfeit shift of disguising themselves, they march up and down the streets of Dublyne, and where they list besides seducing the people, without impeachment.  Ta. 
And from whence is that but by the mighty power of God that is able to protect his servants although in the Lion's den, and therefore he that hath any wit in his head, will never seek to apprehend, trouble or molest any Catholic priest.  Pa. 
Whereof should we stand in fear or doubt?  Ta. 
Of more enemies than friends be sure of that. And name me but any one man that hath most buisied himself in those matters, that hath gotten either gain or grace: and let it be that a Catholic priest be sometimes apprehended (as God be thanked for it, it is seldom seen in Ireland) doth he not use his priestly dignity, in as large and as ample manner as if he were at liberty, in what prison can you shut him up, but there he maketh holy water, holy bread, holy fault, holy candle, and for those that have continual access unto him, aswell men, women and children, he confirms them still and reconciles them to the pope.  Pa. 
But do you reconcile so many to the Pope when you be in prison as you speak of?  Ta. 
Both in prison, and out of prison we reconcile as many, as will hear or believe us.  Pa. 
What to be traitors to the prince?  Ta. 
No sir but to vow themselves to the pope, without any intended treason to the prince.  Pa. 
But this reconciled sort must in the end become traitors to the prince, whether they meant it at the first or nay, for when it pleaseth your holy father to depose the prince, and to excommunicate as many as will acknowledge him for a lawful magistrate (as many times he hath done) what shall your reconciled sort do then?  Ta. 
If a prince be a heretic should we communicate with him?  Pa. 
We may then condemn his heresy, but we must pray for his person, as the Apostle hath taught us: I exhort you therefore, that first of all supplications, prayers and intercessions be made for Kings, and so for all that are in authority.  Ta. 
That is meet, so long as they be good christians.  Pa. 
The advertisement was written from Paul to Tymothy, and at that time when princes were both infidels and idolaters:  Ta. 
I think those kings that be pagans, are rather to be prayed for, than those that be heretics.  Pa. 
The church of Christ hath prayed for those princes that were heretics, & that in the midst of their impiety and hottest tyranny: Constantius for one that was an Arian, and yet was prayed for by the decree of a common Counsel.  Ta. 
Perhaps they might do this in the beginning of his reign before his heresy was discovered.  Pa. 
Perhaps there are none but papists that would appose any such doubts, and what are they but traitors that would teach subjects to rebel?  Ta. 
It is no treason to say the Pope may depose princes, when he hath received that power from Christ.  Pa. 
If you could but prove that, we might the better believe you in some other matters:  Ta. 
Hath he not the keys of the kingdom of heaven?  Pa. 
So hath every other person that is a minister of the word of God, but what have they to do with the kingdoms of the earth: our Saviour being demanded by Pilate what kingdom it was that he claimed, openly avowed: My kingdom is not of this world but the Pope that takes upon him but to be his Vicar, would dispose of all the kingdoms in the world.  Ta. 
May not the shepherd reclaim the sheep if he will not be ruled?  Pa. 
So he may sell the sheep to the Butcher if he be fat, but what is that to your Pope, would you have him to do the like by princes! I hope you understand Sir Tady, that all similitudes be no sylogismes.  Ta. 
For all this I cannot think it any treason to defend that the pope may lawfully depose any prince, for tyranny or heresy.  Pa. 
I cannot let you to think what you list, but I can tell you truly it is treason by the laws of the Realm, to subject either the prince's sword or his crown to the Pope's courts, or in any sort to his usurped power.  Ta. 
The time hath been when Princes might in no wise meddle with ecclesiastical persons, and I warrant you the Pope will never give his consent that any prince of them all should have lawful authority to punish a priest.  Pa. 
God be thanked of a good amendment, Princes are become to be more wise, and I think you have heard of some pretty store of your traitorous priests that have already hopped as far as from Tiber to Tyburn, and there is some hope that shortly more will follow.  Ta. 
I have heard of some that suffered martyrdom, but I know you will say they were executed for treason, when in truth it was but for the testimony of their consciences.  Pa. 
And if it be a matter of conscience for priests and Jesuits to undermine a prince's estate, and to stir up their subjects to rebel, to go about to pluck the crown from their heads and to wrest the sceptre out of their hands, than you say truth, they suffered for their consciences, but if your priests and jesuits, were sent from Rome as pioneers to make ready the way for the Pope's Bull, that should have disinherited the Prince, and given his crown to another, as was apparently proved and confessed by themselves, I wonder with what faces papists can excuse those justly condemned traitors, and to entitle them for martyrs.  Ta. 
I cannot tell what was proved against them, but I am sure they were cruelly executed, but what should I need to speak of matters that were done so many years past, when we have examples here at home, that be yet bleeding new, of two holy martyrs that were executed at Dublyne, but upon Candlemas eve now last past, the one a reverend and a learned By shop, invested many years sithence to the Bishopric of Down by the Pope's holiness, the other a holy Catholic priest, that did both together suffer martyrdom in a most constant manner only for their consciences, and for the testimony of the Catholic faith.  Pa. 
Now fie of the devil, and out upon popery, is it possible that any papist should be found so foolish to bring this matter into question, unless to shame himself, or to make his religion ridiculous? but do you call him a revererid and a learned bishop, that was a very block, without wit learning or honesty, he showed it in the manner of his life, but never more manifest then at the hour of his death.  
It is truth, he had his investment by the Pope, for those Balamite Idyotes, be fit instruments to spread the Pope's doctrine, especially in Ireland, where the poor people are so infected with this Locust vermin of priests and friars, that they will sooner believe an Ass that comes from Rome with a Pope's Bull, than an Angel of heaven, that should be sent with the light of God's word.  
Now for your holy priest that accompanied your learned Bishop, me thinks our papists of Ireland should make intercession to our Lady, that his name might never more be had in remembrance, that at the time of his death, did show himself to be the very disgrace of popery, and an utter reproach to the religion he professed.  Ta. 
Why Patrick although the priest did show himself to be in some little astonishment with the terror of the death he was to endure, yet he died constantly without revolting from his religion, and the Bishop and he together endured their martyrdom with patience enough.  Pa. 
I wonder with what shameless faces papists can avow those to be martyrs, and to die for the testimony of their consciences, that were both of them evycted of high treason, and no matter of religion enforced against them: was not your Bishop indicted of sixteen several articles of treason, all of them openly confessed by himself, and he condemned by his own confession?  Ta. 
And yet I hope you will not deny, but that all his articles, which you say were so many treasons, tended all to the advancement of the holy church of Rome: which every honest man is bound in conscience to do.  Pa. 
If all our priests in Ireland that do teach that doctrine to the poor silly people of that country, were drawn hanged & quartered as your Bishop was, the king's majesty would be both better beloved, and more dutifully served in Ireland then now he is.  Ta. 
Then I perceive you do still thirst after blood: is not your insatiate desire yet glutted enough, with the death of those two worthy martyrs, especially of that reverend Bishop, who was so dearly beloved through all the parts of Ireland, aswell for his learning as for the several services he had performed to the holy church of Rome.  Pa. 
Sir Tady I protest I do thirst after no man's blood, neither do I know any one papist in Ireland that I would seek his life or wish his death, but do rather both pity him & pray for him, but I wonder you are not ashamed to entitle those for martyrs, that were openly known traitors; And what were those holy services that you say your Bishop was so dearly beloved for, were they not his seditious practices, that for many years together was still stirring up of the people to arms and rebellion? were not these the articles wherewith he was accused, the which himself confessed, and for the which he was justly condemned? what other wit learning or honesty was in him, that you so much magnify?  Ta. 
I hope you will not deny him to be learned.  Pa. 
I will deny him nothing that was his due, his learning was fit to concur with that authority the Pope had given him, that was to stir up the people to treason, and rebellion, for any other literature, if aught were in him, it might have been begged for a concealment, for he never showed it.  Ta. 
Why do you slander the dead, he showed himself to be a great scholar at the very hour of his death.  Pa. 
Good sir Tady do me the favour to tell me wherein.  Ta. 
Being ready to mount up the ladder: when he was pressed by some standers by to speak, did he not itterate, and reiterate Sine me quaso, Sine me quaso, so distinct and plainly, that every latinist might well understand him: this was a sign he was learned, and that he could speak Latin.  Pa. 
And here we see the end of this great learned Bishop, that had live▪ in conspiracy for many years against his prince, and being condemned to the gallows for his treason as he was well worthy, had nothing to say in his own excuse but Sine me quaso.  Ta. 
What would you have him to say in such a case, but to give himself to prayer and contemplation.  Pa. 
But what brags be these that are made of his wit and learning, that had lived like a ravening Wolf, and died like a dumb dog.  Ta. 
If there were no better worth in him then your words do import, how came it to pass that the multitude of people, both men and women that did follow him to the place of execution, made such doll and lamentation after him, as the heavens themselves resounded the Echo of their outcries.  Pa. 
Before I answer your demand, I hold it best to make a true relation of the manners and behaviours of the people that so followed him to the place of execution, strange and foolish I confess to be rehearsed, but because you have urged it, thus it followeth.  
The 28. day of january now last passed, the Bishop with his companion the priest, being brought to an arraignment at the King's bench bar at Dublyne, were there condemned of treason, and adjudged to be executed the next saturday following, which was the first of February being Candlemas eve: which day being come, in the morning something timely, by a Catholic consent, a priest or two of the Pope's brood, were sent with holy water and other like holy stuff, to sanctify and hollow the gallows where they should be hanged.  
Lo here the piety that is in popery, I have many times heard speaking of hallowed bread, of hallowed water, of hallowed ashes, of hallowed beads, and of such other like hallowed trash, but I never heard of a pair of gallows that were hallowed before, but these gallows being thus sanctified, and made holy afore hand, about 2. of the clock in the afternoon, the traitors were delivered to the Sheryves of Dublyne that were to see execution, who placing them in a small car, and being assisted with a convenient guard, as they passed along through the streets of Dublyne, diverse citizens (whereof some that were of good sort and fashion) as the Bishop passed by, fell down upon their knees in the dirt and mire, craving his fatherly blessing & benediction, but the poor regardless wretch, sitting still like a block would neither vouchsafe them word, nor so much as to turn his head aside to look at them, or once to lift up his eyes to heaven, or to make show either of devotion or of any religion at all, what was in him, so that he might have been a Papist a Turk or a jew, for any thing that could have been discerned by him, either by his words or by his show: And now being come to the place of execution, it is truth he was followed with troops of citizens, both men and women, and not of the inferior sort alone, but of the better, & amongst the women, of the best men's wives within the city of Dublyne: that kept such a scriking, such a howling, and such a hallowing, as if Saint Patrick himself had been going to the gallows, they could not have made greater signs and shows of grief and sorrow: but when they saw him turned from of the gallows, they raised the Hubbub, with such a main cry, as if the rebels had been approached to rob and rifell their city.  
Now to answer to your question, if I should say that this deploring of a traitor, with such signs and shows of sorrow, did argue but little love to his majesty, perhaps I might offend a great number of papists, but this I dare boldly affirm, that those fooleries, that were used both before and after the execution, argued but little wit; and I think the recital of it would make the papists themselves to laugh at the folly of popery, for mark what followed.  
The executioner had no sooner taken of the Bishop's head, but that the towns men of Dublyne, began to flock about him: some taking up the head with piteous aspect, accompanied with sobs and sighs, that of my conscience were breathed out from their very soul.  
Some kissed it with as religious an appetite as ever they kissed the Pax.  
Some cut away all the hair from the head, which lousy commodity, they religiously reserved, for a lousy relic.  
Some others were practising to steal the head away, the which being espied by the executioner, he gave notice of the matter to the Sheryves of Dublyne.  
Now when he began to quarter the body, the women thronged about him as fast, and happy was she that could get but her handkerchief dipped in the blood of the traitor: And the body being once dissevered into four quarters, they neither left finger nor toe, but they cut them off, and carried them away: And to show their Catholic zeal, they tore his garments into tatters, and some others that could get no holy monuments that appertained▪ to his person, with their knives they shaved of chips from the hallowed gallows: neither would they so much as omit the halter wherewith he was hanged, but it was gathered up to be reserved for holy uses.  
I might speak here of the Bishop's breeches that the executioner sold for five shillings to a fellow that carrying them into the town, and tearing them into fitters made as good a market of them amongst the Catholics of Dublin, as if they had been pardons new come from Rome: the poor hangman again who but laying his cloak a little apart whilst he was doing of his office, it was stolen away from him, and could not be heard on till within two or three days, and then it was known to be cut into shreadds, and so sold amongst the Papists for holy relics at a very dear rate, thinking it had been some vestment belonging to the Bishop.  
I am sorry for my countrymen that are so blind and blockish but see what followed: the same night after the execution was done, they flock together afresh both men and women, with holy water, holy candle: and congregating themselves at the holy gallows, in the place of execution, they spent the fore part of the night in heathenish howling, and performing many popish ceremonies, and after midnight, being then Candelmas day in the morning, having there priests in a readiness they had Mass, and as some say Mass after Mass: day light being come they departed to their own houses, all of them made as holy towards God, as they had showed themselves dutiful to the King.  Ta. 
You have made a long discourse to little purpose, for say you what you can, it will never be believed amongst the Catholics in Ireland, but that these men died holy Martyrs, & suffered for matters that did concern the Church; now for temporal Magistracy to have foveraigntie in spiritual regiment is very unnatural, say you what you can.  Pa 
Who should else maintain and uphold godly laws but the Prince? who should banish and displace false religion together with the spreaders and dispersers of the same but the Prince? who should punish malefactors against God, as heretics, blasphemers, Idolaters, and such other like which is to be done in every Christian common wealth, but the Prince.  Ta. 
The Prince must learn at the priests hand, what is truth, and what is error, before he set in hand to punish.  Pa. 
But if the priest doth preach error in stead of truth, may not the Prince both banish the doctrine, and punish the teacher?  Ta. 
The Pope is the only decider of those doubts, it is he that must judge between truth and error.  Pa. 
But if the Pope doth find an error, and doth command the Prince to punish it, may he not then do it with authority?  Ta. 
If the Pope doth command, there is no question but the Prince must obey.  Pa. 
Then Kings and Princes must do more for the Pope, than they may do for Christ, but if Princes may not judge of the truth, what meant David in his second Psalm to say: Be wise ye Kings, understand ye judges, and serve the Lord.  Ta. 
Well, let be that Princes may command, yet I say still the Church must appoint them what they must command.  Pa. 
But what do you mean by the Church, that you say must thus direct the Prince?  Ta. 
What should I mean but the Church, that is the Pope, his Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, and all other persons ecclesiastical.  Pa. 
But what meant Saint Paul Acts. 20. when he called the Elders of Ephesus, and willed them to feed the Church of God, what meant he by the Church, the priests, or the people?  Ta. 
Perhaps he meant them both, aswell▪ the people as the priests.  Pa. 
Can you find in any one text of Scripture, where the Church is taken for the priests without the people?  Ta. 
But yet the priests are only called Churchmen.  Pa. 
Why now you have answered the matter sound, hereafter when they tell us that the Church doth consist in the whole congregation of the faithful, we may then answer them, that the priests only were called churchmen, and therefore they must command Kings and Princes, what they must do, and what religion they must establish.  Ta. 
It is very true, for who should judge of religion but the Priest.  Pa. 
Why then the priest must judge of truth, but the Prince you say may command for truth, and then we are all this while out of our reckoning, for if it be in the prince's power to command for truth, they will say that our gracious king, commandeth nothing here in Ireland, but what Christ hath already commanded, and what is established by the word of God, and thus we have brought our hogs to a fair market.  Ta. 
But that princes should have power to compel men's consciences, I say is a thing most unreasonable.  Pa. 
And that every ignorant and obstinate person should make a conscience of every popish fantazy is a thing most intolerable.  Ta. 
Do you term it to be fantastical that our progenitors, have professed, and that we ourselves were baptised in?  Pa. 
This is your common enchantment, wherewith you bewitch a number of silly souls, bearing them believe, that in bap tisme, they have vowed themselves to your Romish religion: but in whose name were you baptised, was itin the pope's, or in Peter or in Paul's▪ if in no other than in the nameof Christ alone, then are you made the sons of God, and not the slaves and vassals of Rome, and as in baptism, you received no man's mark but his, so you stand bound to regard no man's voice but his.  Ta. 
Yet I say still that it stands with no reason, that a prince may forcibly compel any man against his conscience.  Pa. 
But I say still that a Prince may forcibly compel his subjects from Idolatry and heresy, to the sincere service of God, & the scriptures do furnish us with sundry precedents tending to that purpose, amongst the rest take this one: josiah was highly commended for making the people of jerusalem, & all that were ●ound in Israel to serve the Lord.  Ta. 
josiah compelled the people to serve the Lord according to the truth, but doth it therefore follow, that every prince, may enforce a religion, that is but fitting to his own will and fancy?  Pa. 
It doth therefore follow, and by the circumstance of the whole chapter, it doth appear, that every christian Prince throughout his realms and dominions, may root out heresy, Idolatry, superstition, and having again reestablished the true and sincere worship of God, may compel and enforce his subjects both to obey and submit themselves unto it.  Ta. 
But the religion which we profess, is the true ancient & Apostolic religion, first delivered by Christ himself unto Peter, and by Peter himself to his successors the Bishops of Rome.  Pa. 
Indeed your Pope in his doctrine, doth as rightly succeed Saint Peter at Rome, as the Turk doth succeed Saint james at jerusalem, and as the Scribes and pharisees did Moses, in whose chair they sat, when they crucified the Son of God.  Ta. 
I hope you make no doubt but that the Pope is Saint Peter's successor, and that the chair whereon he now sitteth at Rome was first Saint Peter's seat.  Pa. 
I understand not what you mean by the Pope's chair, & by Saint Peter's seat, whether you mean it by any Throne or Tabernacle, or by some other Tribunal, or what manner of stool it should be, that you call Saint Peter's seat.  Ta. 
I believe you well, for Protestant's (God knows) are not only ignorant, but they are likewise blind and senfeles in those things, that doth appertain to the mysteries of the Catholic Church, but for your better satisfaction, and to give you true weet of Peter's Seat what it is: you that are so full of scripture cannot be ignorant where Christ in the 23. of Mathewe told his Disciples that the Scribes and pharisees did sit on Moses chair, & willed them therefore (in respect of their place) both to hear and believe them, being as they were successors unto Moses▪ then the like of Rome where Peter was sometimes Bishop, and where he constantly preached Christ crucified, must therefore necessarily be the Seat of Peter, and this holy Sea of Rome is it, which Peter hath left to his successors, and we may as truly say that the Pope doth now sit on Peter's Seat, as Christ told his Disciples, that the Scribes and pharisees did sit on Moses Chair.  Pa. 
There have been many papists that have taken great pains to prove that Peter was Bishop of Rome, but there was yet never any one of them could make it so apparent, but that we might deny & that by good authority, that peter was ever at Rome at all: but let it be granted that Peter were at Rome, doth it therefore follow that the Sea of Rome must be Peter's Seat? Peter preached in many places before he came to Rome (if ever he were there at all) as it appeareth in the Acts of the Apostles, and by the testimony of your own legend, Peter was a long time at Antioch, and why should not Antioch, or any other place where Peter taught and preached, challenge a superiority as far forth as Rome?  Ta. 
I see I must render you a reason for the matter, will it please you now to understand, that besides Peter's being at Rome, Peter likewise died at Rome, and suffered under Nero, & therefore the place more holy, and worthy of authority.  Pa. 
May it please you now to hear me to render you the like reason, our Saviour jesus Christ was crucified and died at jerusalem, for the sins of the world, and therefore in the work of our redemption, his power is more ●ull and ample at the city of jerusalem, than it is in any other place where he had formerly taught and preached.  
You say Protestants are blinded, but if papisteswere not both blind and out of their wits beside, they would never gather such conclusions whereby to uphold the pride of their pope, that be cause Peter was at Rome, therefore the Sea of Rome must be Saint Peter's seat: but how hangeth this together, where Christ in the 23. of Matthew, told his Disciples that the Scribes and pharisees did sit on Moses Chair, what was meant by Moses chair in this place? it could not be meant by the city of jerasalem, as the papists would have Rome to be the Seat of Peter, because (as they surmise) Peter was at Rome, but Moses was never at jerusalem, neither in the Synagogue, neither in the Temple, nor in any part of the country that was near about it: why then the Chair of Moses, which Christ here spoke of, was nothing else but the doctrine of Moses, which he had formerly taught and left unto them, and which Christ in this place willed his Disciples to hear, and likewise to follow what the Scribes and pharisees said and taught but not to do as they did, to follow their sayings, but not their doings: even so likewise, Peter's Seat, Peter's Keys, and Peter's doctrine, are all one and the self same thing: but this doctrine of the preaching of the Gospel, your Pope hath abolished at Rome, and in the place thereof he hath set up the preaching of his own laws, of his own decrees, and of his own traditions: and therefore he sitteth not on the seat of Peter, but in the Seat of Antichrist, in the Chair of pestilence, and for Peter's coming to Rome, it can do your Pope no good at all, he may well brag a little of the matter: but it will not serve his turn.  Ta. 
Thus you would conclude that Saint Peter's seat, consisted in nothing more than in the preaching of the Gospel. And by this you would deprive him not only of his Patrimony, but also of his Dignity: Saint Peter is little beholding to Protestants, for of him that was called the Prince of the Apostles, they would make him to be but Minimus Apostolorum, but if to preach the Gospel, be to sit in Peter's Seat, was it not Peter to whom Christ especially recommended the feeding of his flock? And what is meant by the feeding of the sheep, but the preaching of the word, and ministering of the sacraments, which as it was commended to Peter especially, so it remaineth a precept for ever to the Popes that are his successors? And was it not to Peter again to whom Christ said I have prayed for thee Peter that thy faith might not fail? what malicious impiety then in Protestants, to spurn against that Principality, that Christ himself hath confirmed, not only to Peter himself, but to the rest that be his successors in the holy sea of Rome.  Pa. 
First for this priority that papists would so fain ascribe to Peter above the rest of the Apostles, I say our Saviour Christ hath long sithence determined, when in the 10. of Saint Marks Gospel, he told them that there should be no precedency amongst them, nor the one to be accounted more worthy than the other, and therefore flatly decreed between them that he that would aspire to be greatest, the same should be least: now for Saint Peter, esteem him as you please, choose how you will account him to be either Maximus or Minimus.  
But what blockishness is in papists to think that because Christ commanded Peter to feed his flock, that this precept therefore was given but to Peter himself, as though that commandment to feed the flock of Christ did not belong as far forth to all the Apostles, as it did to Peter. I will tell you Sir Tady, there is not so simple a minister in the Church of God (that hath cure of souls,) but according to his measure, is as straightly tied to the feeding of Christ's flock, as ever was any Pope of Rome: or as Peter, or as Paul, or as any other of the twelve Apostles.  
And now for your Popes, that you say are successors unto Peter, if we should look into the food, what it is they have distributed, and consider of the diligence they have used in performing this precept thus left unto Peter, we should find that in feeding the sheep, they have poisoned the pasture: they have infected & corrupted it with the venomous leaven of their own laws and traditions, and in stead of giving food, they have fleeced the flock, they have made a shambles of the sheep, & have murdered and massacred the innocent lambs: such havoc your Popes have kept amongst the Saints of God, and yet they would be accounted to be Peter's successors: but what a counterfeit Hypocrite is your Pope, that under a show of humility will profess himself to be servus servorum, and yet will take upon him to control, and domineer over Emperors and Kings: and because Christ hath said, I have prayed for thee Peter that thy faith should not fail, therefore (say the papists) the Pope cannot err, thus they do wrest and writhe holy scriptures, to serve their fleshly appetites, and as for Saint Peter's Patrimony, Saint Peter's Seat, Saint Peter's Keys, Saint Peter's Power, Saint Peter's Authority, yea and Saint Peter himself, they are all made props and supporters to uphold the Pope's pride.  Ta. 
Why how now Patrick, what art thou out of thy wits, wilt thou impugn saint Peter's authority, or wilt thou deny that he hath absolute power, both to bind and to loose, either in heaven or in earth, as Christ himself hath given and warranted unto him?  Pa. 
I deny him nothing, but that he had full power and authority by the preaching of the Gospel, both to bind & to lose, to open and to shut, and to do all things in as large and ample manner as either james, or john, Philip, or Bartholomew, or any other of the Apostles, whom our Saviour himself after his resurrection, armed with equal authority, when in the 20. of john, he sent them into the world, to preach to all nations.  Ta. 
Thus I perceive you can be contented that Peter should march with the rest of the Apostles in equal rank, but you will not admit him any supreme authority.  Pa. 
If you can allege but any one place of scripture that doth give unto Peter, any more than the rest, you shall find me apt enough to acknowledge it.  Ta. 
Is not this confirmation enough, when Peter is the rock, whereon Christ, himself said, he would build his Church?  Pa. 
I wonder papists are not ashamed to urge that place of scripture so grossly, Peter acknowledging Christ to be the son of God, our Saviour answered▪ Upon thisrocke, I will build my Church: the Pope would have the rock to be Peter himself, whereon Christ promised to build his Church: when indeed it was the faith of Peter, confessing Christ to be the son of God, for faith is the rock whereon Christ's Church is built: for who is of Christ's Church, but he only that believeth Christ to be the son of God? this faith is it against which the gates of Hell cannot prevail.  Ta. 
What malicious despite is this to deprive Saint Peter of his principality: give him some pre-eminence for shame, if it be but because he was the first amongst the Apostles, that confessed Christ to be the son of God.  Pa. 
It is truth, Peter was the first amongst the Apostles, that confessed Christ to be the son of God, and so he was the first again that denied his master, neither do we seek to deprive that blessed Apostle of any pryoritie that the word of God doth allow him, but rather to curtal your Idolatrous Pope, who by magnifying of Peter would thereby exalt himself, Peter's name is used but to uphold his pride: but if you have no better proofs than these to confirm Peter's greatness, hear what I can say in the negative, to prove that Peter was no greater than the rest of the Apostles.  Ta. 
I would fain see that (quoth blind Hew) for that would seem strange amongst Catholics.  Pa. 
Why then to open the eyes of blind popish Catholics, let them look first into the Acts of the Apostles, Chap. 8. where the Apostles that were at jerusalem, understanding that the Samaritans had received the Gospel of Christ by the preaching of Philip, they immediately sent both Peter and john, for the better confirmation of the Samaritans: this argueth that Peter had no such jurisdiction over the rest of the Apostles as our papists do dream of, for than he could not have been sent, but Peter and john were sent, as other private persons, to preach and minister to the Samaritans.  
And in the eleventh of the Acts, when Peter had been warned by a vision to go to Cornelius, the rest of the congregation called him to an account, and after a sort rebuked Peter for entering the house of an uncircumcised person, and Peter was driven in his own excuse to recapitulate unto them the whole manner of the vision how it appeared unto him, and was warranted by the spirit of God: by this it doth appear that Peter had no superiority above the rest, but rather argueth an inferiority, than any place of principality: we read how Paul again not only controlled Peter about matters of circumcision, but also withstood him to his face, in such sort as he that should read over the second to the Galathians, would think that if there were any superiority amongst the Apostles, it rather belongeth to Paul then to Peter: but there was no domineering amongst them, nor one greater than another, but as I have said before, they marched all in one equality, both in power and authority.  
True it is that Peter did still show himself to be of a more stirring and lively spirit then the rest, and was more apt and ready both in propounding of questions, & in answering of demands, which proceeded sometimes of ignorance, as when he demanded of his master, whether it might not suffice to forgive his enemy 7. times, thinking that to forgive eight had been too much.  
Sometimes his readiness in answering was inspired by the spirit of God, as when Christ demanded of his Disciples, whom they thought him to be, Peter immediately made answer, I say thou art the son of the living God: sometimes again over much confidence of himself, made him to be somewhat too forward in his protestations, as in the 26. of Matthew, where Christ expostulating with his Disciples, told them that this night they should all be offended by him, but Peter led partly by zeal, and partly by presumption answered, If all the world be offended with thee, yet will not I be offended with thee▪ and yet the very same night he denied him to a poor maid: and in the 16. chap. before, when Christ revealed to his Disciples that he must go up to jerusalem, there to suffer many things, Peter rashly advised him to shun the place, & not to go thither at all.  
By these and other like places it doth appear, that as Peter was of a more quick and lively spirit than the rest of the Apostles, so he was more forward than the rest, either to speak or to do any thing as time and place did serve, or as he was fitted by occasion: And as the infirmities not only of Peter, but also of many holy men beside, are registered in the holy scriptures, and left unto us for our example, so we do not cite these places of any spite or malice whereby to impugn Saint Peter's Authority, but rather to make known the Pope's tyranny, that hath a long time juggled with the scriptures, and hath not only made Saint Peter a coverture to his pomp and pride: but also many times abuseth the name of the living God himself, for where he beginneth with this preamble: In the name of God, then commonly he contriveth some service to the Devil.  
To wind up all therefore I say, that if that blessed Apostle Saint Peter, would arrogate but half so much to himself as our grosseheaded papists will attribute to their Pope, hell fire were fitter for him then so great glory in the kingdom of heaven.  Ta. 
I wonder how any presumptuous fool in the world dare avouch these blasphemies against the Vicar of Christ?  Pa. 
And I wonder as fast in what place of scripture you do find that Christ would have any such Vicar, or how the Pope should come to that title, that you speak of, to be the Vicar of Christ, but I wonder most of all that so many fools will believe him but upon his own report: having neither scripture, script nor scroll to confirm it?  Ta. 
You have forgotten yourself Patrick: the matter is better warranted than you are aware on, how many notable Authors have extolled the pope, so far that they make it Sacrilege to dispute of his facts, Heresy to doubt of his power, Paganism, to disobey him, Blasphemy against the holy Ghost, to speak against his decrees and Canons.  Pa. 
And presumption, not to go to the Devil with him for company.  Ta. 
You may jest as you list, but what I have delivered is approved by several special authors, as it appeareth testified in their own works and writings.  Pa. 
And is not Bonifacius, a holy Martyr of the Popes own making, as good an author as any of the rest? whose words be these: If the Pope be found to neglect the salvation of himself, and his brethren, unprofitable or slack in his office, silent in that which is good, hurtful to himself and to all others: yea, though he lead with him innumerable souls by heaps to the devil of hell, yet let no mortal man find fault with, or reprove him for his doings.  Ta. 
I will be with you to the worlds end, saith Christ: And therefore what soever Bonifacius hath written, if the Pope should err as you have said, this promise could not be kept.  Pa. 
But to whom was that promise made think you? was it to the Pope alone or to the whole Church?  Ta. 
I think the promise was made to all, but to the Pope especially, that is the head of the Church.  Pa. 
Keep that head still for your Romish Church, for the Church of God, knoweth no other head but Christ.  Ta. 
But our Saviour hath said, it is not possible that theelect should be seduced.  Pa. 
Not possible they should be seduced to fall from God, but the elect may sin, yet not unto death, so they may err, but not unto destruction.  Ta. 
I say that the promise of our Saviour that Peter's faith should not fail, is enough for me to conclude that the Pope cannot err.  Pa. 
Then you understand Christ's words after this sort, I have prayed for thee Peter that thy faith should not fail, that is to say, notwithstanding my prayer for thee, thou thyself shalt deny me, and thy successors shall be heretics, Idolaters, and runagates from me.  Ta. 
Make you what cauels you list in this matter, I do conclude that the rulers of the Church must needs have the holy Ghost.  Pa. 
A happy conclusion for him that wears a mitre, and by this we may perceive, how probable it is that the Pope can not err.  Ta. 
The Pope is the head of the Church, and Christ's Vicar general, here upon earth, and in matters of faith, the Pope can not err.  Pa. 
It is truly to be proved, that not only the Popes but that whole Counsels have sometimes erred.  Ta. 
That a Council may err, I will not gain say, but for a Pope to be an heretic were strange to be told.  Pa. 
No wonder at all, if your own stories be true: Honorius died an heretic, and was accursed after his death for heresy by a general Counsel.  Ta. 
Well, if it were so, there is but one, and one swallow (they say) maketh no summer.  Pa. 
Why then there was one Pope that was a noted heretic: but if I should speak of many other abominations that have been committed by Popes, sithence your third Bonifacius obtained from that Parricide Phocas, the title of supremacy, were infinite to be spoken of, and that the greatest number of your Popes for these 600. years last passed, have not entered by Canonical election, but by violence, sedition, corruption, and bribery.  
Let your renowned Abreviator Apostolicus: Platina, bear witness who complaineth: The Popedom (saith he) was come to that pass, that he that could do most with ambition or bribery, he only obtained the papal dignity.  Ta. 
This is but one doctor's opinion, trifles of no account, the malicious reports of heretics.  Pa. 
Then I perceive one swallow will make no summer with you nor one doctors opinion received in a matter of truth, but will you accept of good company, what say you to Sigebertus, Marianus, Scotus, Martinus, and your holy Abbot Barnarde, that have all of them inucied against your Pope, insomuch that Friar Mantuan raileth at Rome itself, giving this admonishment, you that wish to live godly, depart from Rome, for all things are there suffered, save godliness.  Ta. 
The City of Rome hath been renowned both for learning, and religion.  Pa, 
The City of Rome is now infamed for all manner of abomination.  Ta. 
Rome beareth the same name she did 12. hundred years ago, and why should she not challenge the same virtues which then she had?  Pa. 
jerusalem was sometimes the holy city, but now she is become a shameless strumpet, and Niniveh was spared for her true repentance, but sithence confounded for her disobedience.  Ta. 
You are so full of scripture Patrick, that there is no dealing with you, but if your College doth teach this doctrine, I can tell you it will crack your credit amongst your friends here in Ireland, but that paltry schoolhouse will do much harm here in Ireland, it breedeth up heretics apace, but if good counsel might be accepted, I could advise you of such a course that howsoever it would be available for your profit, I am sure it would much better your credit.  Pa. 
Good counsel comes never out of season to a wise man, and as he may be esteemed for a friend that will advise it, so he is no less happy that hath wisdom to follow it.  Ta. 
Then to show myself a friend unfeigned, and to make you happy if you will not front your own fortune, the matter that I would induce you unto, is to spend some three or four years study in any one of the Pope's Seminaries, where you should find a more ready and exact method & manner of teaching then hitherto you have been acquainted with all, and that form of education, and training up, as your College at Dubline will never be able to afford.  Pa. 
You mean amongst the Jesuits.  Ta. 
I mean amongst the Jesuits, that holy society, who for their great learning, and godly conversation, are above all others most esteemed and renowned: there you shall not only perfect your own knowledge with divine wisdom, and understanding, but you shall be further enabled for the good of your country, where at your return, you shall be received and entertained, by the best inhabitants, not only of the English people but throughout the whole realm of Ireland, who would not only receive you into their houses, but who soever did sit at the table, your place should sure be above the salt.  Pa. 
The sum of all is this, you would have me to leave my study here at the College, and for the bettering of mine understanding I should travail to Rome, or to Rheims, there to be instructed amongst the Jesuits.  Ta. 
You shall there both enrich your mind with knowledge, and advance your credit with a reverent estimation.  Pa. 
Your Jesuits indeed are so famous for their learning, that they can make themselves blind by seeing too much, they can set the holy scriptures at a jar, and they are as curious in searching out the virtue of the words, as they be careful to subvert the words of the truth: what is it which they can not utterly overthrow with their fiery blasts of thundering words, by their engines of Definitions, Distinctions, Divisions, Sylogismes, Figures Allegories? then they have so many generals and specials, with such glosses and expoundings, that they will presume to measure God's word and his works with their logical Sophisms.  
The purity of religion is inspired from above, and not to be comprehended by dividing, defining, compounding, nor by any other sophistical manner of contending.  
A miserable and a most ungracious study, that doth nothing else but study how to err.  
Who are they but your Jesuits that have brought the cause of Christ to a mere brabble of words, whom neither the weakness of their own cause, nor the force of the truth, nor the defence thereof so many times approved against them, by the Authority of holy scriptures can content or dissuade them to forsake the way of their contentions, but that they are still whetting themselves to trouble the Church of God: and to inveigh against the truth.  Ta. 
You were best to take a little breath Patrick, and then you may fall to your railing again: was there ever a more malicious invective breathed out against that holy societi, that all the world doth admire aswell for their learning as for their integrity of life?  Pa. 
I do not marvel (Sir Tady) though the night Owl that hath but a scriking voice herself, should sometimes commend the Cuckoo for her sweet and pleasant singing.  Ta. 
And the Cuckoo for a plain song may compare with your Nightingale.  Pa. 
So might Pan with Apollo, by the judgement of Midas.  Ta. 
I see you are too confident in your own conceit, I wished you well and I would I could have prevailed with you for your own good.  Pa. 
I am afraid you do prevail with too many, that by these allurements, you blindly lead to your Romish captivity.  Ta. 
Do you call them captives that are drawn to our Catholic Community, whom we chearily feed and foster up with the milk of our holy mother Church?  Pa. 
The milk that you feed withal, is but Boyne Clubbo, it is not the sweet milk that is drawn from the Gospel.  Ta. 
Do you disprove that food, that is aswell approved by the Pope, as by all the ancient doctors of the Church?  Pa. 
They must be your own doctors that must help you, for I am sure the doctors and fathers of the Primitive Church, had little to do with your religion.  Ta. 
And who be those that you term to be our own doctors?  Pa. 
Who should they be but the pillars of your Church, Bonaventura, Occam, Scotus, Thomas Aquinas with an infinite number such other like that be of your popish rabble.  Ta. 
Our religion is not so much propped up by them as by the holy scriptures.  Pa. 
Prove but that, and I will promise you to go to Mass three times a week.  Ta. 
Is it not proof enough that hath been confirmed by the Pope himself many hundred years ago and all those confuted that have sought to impugn it.  Pa. 
Your Pope confureth more by poisons and by treasons, than he doth by arguments or by any other authority either of words or writings, that are drawn from the holy Scriptures.  Ta. 
You may make as many cavels as you list, but I say the successor of Peter cannot err, and therefore the church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ hath prayed, that it might not fail.  Pa. 
Are we come to that again, I have already named you a Pope, that hath erred and died an heretic, and I tell you yet again that the divines of Paris openly confuted the conclusions and articles of john the 22. and got the same to be condemned before Philipe King of France with the sound of Trumpets: but in whose name will not he craftily set forth his errors, which dare falsely set forth himself in the place of the Son of God.  
And have not some other of your Popes both corrupted, and falsified Counsels, Canons, and Decrees, and all to uphold their pride?  Ta. 
Show me but where such a prank hath been played, and I will give you the Bucklers.  Pa. 
Where it was decreed by the Counsel of Chalcedon, that Constantinople should be advanced in ecclesiastical matters, as far forth as Rome, they shamefully forged that Constantinople should not be advanced so far forth as Rome, a horrible corruption of a Counsel, turning an affirmative to a negative.  Ta. 
And what can you make of that, but Vitiunscriptoris, an oversight in the writer, a matter easily overslipped.  Pa. 
These be your shameless shifts, when matters be apparently proved against you, but what have your Romanistes left uncorrupted, no not the holy Scriptures themselves, and how many books have been forged and foisted in several men's names, some of them calling their own dreams and fantazyes the Gospel of Thomas, of Barthelmew, and of Barnaby: and what Epistles, Canons and decretals, have been published under the names of Clemens Cletus and Anacletus, and of diverse others well proved to be but forgeries.  
And how many Monks and Friars, seeking to colour their feigned holiness, with the reverent titles of ancient Fathers, pray fixed the names of Augustine, Ambrose, Hierome, Cyprian, Isydore, and of many others, before diverse of their own fantasies, and forgeries, thereby providing to strengthen their kingdom of blindness and error, the which if by the wisdom of God, had not been plainly approved and manifestly found out, we might have reverenced a company of lousy Monks & Friars under the names and titles of ancient and learned fathers.  Ta. 
Let them answer for themselves that have done these things, and I believe if your own ministry were well sifted we might find amongst them some that in their conversation of life, are not answerable to that semblance that they make when they be in the pulpit.  Pa. 
Have you no better shifts than these whereby to excuse your impieties, let the world then judge of your religion what it is, that is thus propped up with such counterfeit stuff, lies, fables, dreams, visions, unwritten verities, and impossibilities: Popery is a religion that can content itself, with knowing untruths, without further search to find out the truth.  Ta. 
They are but heretics and schismytickes that will thus report: our religion is approved by the Pope, and who is fitter to decide of truth, than he that is the supreme head of the Church.  Pa. 
And although that supreme authority were allowed, which your Pope could yet never prove, yet it will be said, that the right directions unto the truth, must be discerned by the doctrine and not by the dignity.  Ta. 
Then who shall be judge of this truth which you speak of?  Pa. 
God is truth, and who shall be judge of God.  Ta. 
That God is truth it cannot be denied but of matters in controversy who shall be judge of truth.  Pa. 
Who but he that shall judge all at the last day, and in the mean time, he only is the supreme judge of truth: The Father hath committed all judgement to the Son, and my judgement is true, saith Christ. john. 5. 8.  Ta. 
But if the scriptures be mistaken or misinterpreted, who shall then give censure but the Pope?  Pa. 
This strife (sayeth Saint Augustine) requireth a judge, judicet ergo Christus. Let Christ be judge: and Optatus writing of the same matter sayeth, There can be no judgement, we must seek for a judge from heaven, but why knock we at heaven, when we have his will here in the Gospel: And we are further taught, in the Gospel itself: They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.  Ta. 
You are loath I perceive that the Pope should be your judge, yet when he speaketh truth, I hope you will vouchsafe him audience.  Pa. 
No doubt but so long as he speaketh truth, we will both hear him and believe him, and so we would do by balam's Ass.  Ta. 
Then you will believe nothing for truth but what you find testified by the scriptures.  Pa. 
Nothing else but what the scripture doth approve, for your Mongrel Monks and Friars have so corrupted and counterfeited the ancient fathers, that we dare trust nothing but what is concordant and agreeing with the scriptures.  Ta. 
But do you not find it testified that there were many things done by Christ that were not written?  Pa. 
And yet a very foolish presumption to impugn things that are written, upon supposal of those things that are unwritten: and basil giveth us a caveat in the matter, It is a manifest fall from faith, and a sin that argueth infinite pride, either to leave that which is written, or to admit of that which is not written.  Ta. 
This common frequent that is had to the scriptures by every ignorant man, hath opened the gap to all▪ kind of division, of heresies, schisms, sects and disorders.  Pa. 
By the light which we have received from the scriptures, your holy father can neither merchandise the souls, nor empty the purses of so many men as he was wont to do.  Ta. 
I tell you it is not necessary, that the unlearned and ignorant people, should either look into the Scriptures, or understand our prayers.  Pa. 
Nor may they not hear them read, when they come to Church?  Ta. 
Wherefore should they else come to church but to hear both Matins and Mass?  Pa. 
Then these words Beati qui audiunt verbum Dei, et custodiunt ipsum; is thus to be understood, Blessed are they that hear the word of God, and knows not what it meaneth.  Ta. 
Our doctrine is very curious not for all to understand.  Pa. 
Pray God it be not as dangerous, for any to follow.  Ta. 
If there be any danger in the service of the Church, it must be amongst Protestants, where every blind minister▪ may go up into a pulpit and teach what he list.  Pa. 
Indeed the Protestant ministers have not half so many tricks and turns, whips and slips, mops and moes, as your priest that is at Mass.  Ta. 
Every unlearned Catholic, doth know his time, when to stand up, when to kneel down, when to adore, when to say Amen, when to come, and when to go.  Pa. 
Indeed use doth work mysteries: and long practise hath taught them to keep their Row, to kneel, when they hear the Sancebell ring, to adore, when they see the Host over the priest's head, to stand up when he is walking of his stations, from the one end of the Altar to the other, but may this knowledge serve think you for salvation?  Ta. 
Do you make doubt of that? if the people but know this and when to say Amen it is enough.  Pa. 
How unwise was Saint Paul than not to foresee this method, for as it should seem by his Epistle to the Corinthians, the people were as good to say Amen, when the Sancebell ringeth as to the priest when he mumbleth up his Liturgies, which neither himself nor they understand.  Ta. 
I will not speak of the people's knowledge but I say he is but a sorry priest that doth not understand as much as is contained in his Ports.  Pa. 
It is an easy matter indeed, for a priest to say Mass out of his own book, but to understand what he readeth it were a goodly matter to find one amongst ten that could do it.  Ta. 
To read well and distinctly is as much as we require, we are not so precise as your puritan Protestants.  Pa. 
Yet none more ignorant than your puritan papists, as one of your Catholic priests approved himself at the Christening of a child.  Ta. 
I never heard of the name before, nor I believe yourself did ever know a papist that was a puritan.  Pa. 
Ireland is full of them, where we may find more precise folly amongst the papists of that country, then is to be found in Italy or Spain.  Ta. 
Your countrymen I perceive are little beholding to you, but out with your ta●e of the christening of a child, where you say a papist did show himself a puritan.  Pa. 
If you will have it for a tale, let it pass for a tale, a true tale it is, and thus it followeth, but yet within the compass of memory: an honest townsman whose name was Brown, had kept his eldest son so long to schooll, that in the beginning of Queen Mary's reign (being grown up to man's estate) for his great learning and clarkeship was thought fit to be made a massing priest: by the advise of his friends, and his own assent, he took orders and where before he was called by the name of Tom Browne: by his priestly dignity, he had this addition, and was called by the name of Sir Thomas Tom Browne: It was not long but he was invested with a benefice, and a child was brought to him to be baptised: our priest that had never christened before, betook himself aforehand to look over his book, and reading till he came to Abrenuntias Sathanum et omniaopera, at these words he began to bless himself, and making the sign of the Cross on his forehead, he called to his assistance the Clerk that stood fast by, and demanded of him what those words might mean, the Clerk that was as ignorant as master parson himself, told him he understood no latin, and therefore could not satisfy him: whereupon Sir Thomas was struck into a great amazement, for he understood never a word but Sathanum, and that he was sure was latin for the devil: And for the devils name to be used in the christening of a child, he thought was far unfit for so godly an exercise; thinking therefore the word to be mistaken, would needs seek out a better to supply the place, & scraping out Sathanum, he put in Christum: And thus where it stood before▪ wilt thou forsake the devil and all his works, Sir Thomas had in this sort mended the matter, Wilt thou forsake Christ and all his works: to the which the gossips in the child's name must answer Abrenuncio, I forsake them.  Ta. 
I thought your tale would tend to a good purpose, but admit that this were true, yet here was no puritanism, the worst you can make of it, was but a little mistaking, and that proceeded from a godly zeal, and a religious intent.  Pa. 
If you had joined ignorance with your zeal, you had shot something near the mark, but by this you may perceive how necessary it is that both priest and people should understand what is read and taught in the Church.  Ta. 
In our prayers we speak to God, and not to men, & therefore I see no reason, why every man should look to understand what we read or what we say.  Pa. 
But it is the people and not God, that needeth the priest's voice in the Church prayer.  Ta. 
The priest is the mouth of the Church, and therefore he must speak for the whole congregation.  Pa 
If it be needful for the priest to speak, it is as necessary for the people to understand.  Ta. 
It is needful for the priest to speak and to make intercession for the people unto God, but in such a language as is acceptable unto God.  Pa. 
God with whom there is no respect of persons, hath less respect to tongues.  Ta. 
The Hebrew Greek and Latin, were all three sanctified in our saviours Cross, and therefore it hath been long sithence decreed by the holy Church, that God should be honoured and served in one of those three learned languages.  Pa. 
But who set up those learned titles, was it Christ or pilate?  Ta. 
What though they were set up by pilate, those three languages were only dedicated to the Cross.  Pa. 
Then pilate's impiety, that delivered Christ to be crucified, proclaiming the son of God for a traitor, and to aspire the Crown of jury in Hebrew Greek and Latin, must prescribe a rule to the Church of God against the Apostle Corin. 14.  Ta. 
It is enough to say that the Church hath thus decreed, and a good Catholic, should admit of nothing else, nor never seek further.  Pa. 
You were best to stick fast to that anchorhold, for if the authority of your Pope be not able to countervail both Peter and Paul, yea and to weigh up Christ himself, your whole religion is but Idolatry, superstition and hypocrisy.  Ta. 
I tell you for the approbation of our religion, although we had no Scriptures to help us, yet we have such other circum stances, whereby to confirm it, as I hope the proudest Protestant in all your College, will be ashamed to make any doubt in the matter.  Pa. 
Our Protestants in the College would be ashamed to make doubt of any thing that is apparently true.  Ta. 
But they must have scriptures for their confirmation, I am sure they do look for that.  Pa. 
If it be for doubts in religion, for matters of faith, or for things that do concern our salvation, they will beleeuc nothing but what is testified and to be approved by the Scriptures.  Ta. 
Then they stand upon good security; and so a man may trust a Dog with a shoulder of mutton: but these are unbelieving Apostles, that will not acknowledge Christ to be risen, unless with Thomas Dydimus, they may feel the print of his wounds with their own fingers: but blessing light on them, that have not seen and yet will believe, the Revelations, that have been sent, the Visions that have been seen, and the Miracles that have been wrought, to the comfort of Catholics, and the confirmation of their religion▪ & let all the Divines that be in your College, that doth so much impugn our Catholic religion, bring forth but one Miracle that doth make for them, and we will drop ten for one against them, for the approving of ours.  Pa. 
Indeed we bring no Miracles whereby to fortify our religion, but such as were performed by Christ and his Apostles, many hundred years sithence.  Ta. 
And they be old and over worn, but we have them every day spick and span new, Miracles upon Miracles, one in another's neck, and those most admirable and strange to be reported.  Pa. 
And I think no less incredible to be believed.  Ta. 
For the certainty of them there is none will doubt but heretics: and now if I should speak but of half the Miracles that are expressed in our Catholic histories, I might easily find matter wherewith to begin, but never find time when to make an end: I will therefore overpass our Golden Legend, a whole volume of Miracles extant in Folio, besides many other that are contained in one holy book of Conformities, where mention is made aswell of birds as beasts, that came flocking together about Saint Francis, to hear him preach, and how the Nighting gales, and other singing birds, would come help him to sing Mass▪ but these are of an old date, I will therefore come to new matter: what Miracles have been lately performed by our Lady of Hall, set down by justus Lypsius, a most learned jesuit, who now but within these very few years, write two learned Books full of Catholic doctrine, in the praise of two Images, the one of them called our Lady of Hall, the other by the name of our Lady of Sichem, both of them the Images of our blessed Lady the Virgin Mary: the which two Images (as Lypsius affirmeth) have performed greater miracles, than the scriptures do testify were done by Christ himself.  
There is mention made of ten several persons that were delivered in a great extremity, from the danger of death, but by thinking of our Lady of Hall.  
Seven others that were already dead, were restored again to life, being but laid before her Image: now for curing of all manner of diseases, as to make the dumb to speak, the deaf to hear, the blind to see, the lame to go, they are common things matters of small account, she doth them with ease and great dexterity.  
But amongst a number of other Miracles, I will deliver one for the comfort of Falconers.  
Lypsius confidently reporteth in this foresaid book, that an angry disposed Lord, would have hanged his Falconer for losing of his hawk, and when the rope was about his neck, and he ready to be executed, he did but call to his mind our Lady of Hall, and at the very instant of his thought, the hawk came flying, and lighted on his shoulders: and so saved his life.  
I think I might weary the wisest man in Ireland, if I should set down all what Lypsius hath reported of these two Ladies.  Pa. 
Doth your Lady of Hall use to take no money for these cures you speak of, doth she all these things gratis, without any further consideration?  Ta. 
What miserable wretch would be so ungrateful as not to bestow an offering of the mother of mercy.  Pa. 
Then I see it is not out of kind for Ladies to take offerings, but do you call your Lady of Hall, the mother of mercy?  Ta. 
Patrick be not an enemy to thine own destruction, do but consider of this that followeth and use thine own judgement.  
This book thus published by Lypsius of the Miracles that were performed by our Lady of Hall, was contradicted by a Protestant minister of the low countries▪ whereupon Clarus Bonarscius, a famous and a most learned jesuit, that was abiding in Antiwarpe, but within these three or four years, which worthy champion of the Church of Rome, encountered this depraving Protestant, this low country minister, writing a book against him, which he entitled. The great Theatre of the Jesuits honour: in which book amongst a great deal of other Catholic matter in a most eloquent and learned manner, he inveyeth and bitterly rageth against Protestants in general, forbearing to disgrace neither prince nor peasant that are not devoted to the Catholic Church of Rome, and was not ashamed to detect and reprove some Protestant princes particularly without any respect either to their estate or dignity: & having thus clerkly railed and raged against them: he spendeth a little time to speak of his friend Lip sius, whom when he had highly extolled for his Catholic zeal in writing of those 2. books: he composeth an excellent poem in the honour of our Lady of Hall, the which he dedicateth to herself and to her young son.  
In this Poem, amongst other Catholic matters he confidently affirmeth, the milk of our Lady to be equal in comparison with the blood of Christ, and that our sins are cured aswell by her milk as by his blood.  
That God hath divided his king doom with our Lady, reserving justice to himself and yielding mercy to her.  
That a man may appeal from God to our Lady, and that sins are sooner forgiven by her intercession, then by the mediation of jesus Christ.  Pa. 
But is it possible (Sir Tady) that any such book should be extant as you report, wherein should be published so horrible blasphemy?  Ta. 
Are you not ashamed to use any such terms, or to ask any such question? I tell you there were two books first written by justus Lypsius wherein he delivered the Miracles that were performed by our Lady of Hall, and by our Lady of Sichem, and for this book entitled The great Theater of the Jesuits honour, written by Bonarscius, in the defence of Lypsius, it hath been thrice printed within these four or five years, now last past, twice at Antiwarpe, and once at Paris, with allowance and authority in both places: and for the better approbation of the matter, one other learned father Possivine a third jesuit, who in his Apparatus sacer, hath given notice to the world, that Lypsius did publish such awo●ke, and gives him special commendations for his pains taking in the Catholic cause▪ who would think now that these books could be thus published without controlment, but that they are warranted by our holy father himself, and by the whole Church of Rome, for undoubted truths.  
But what need I travel to fetch home miracles from beyond the seas, when Ireland itself doth so plentifully afford them, & that in every quarter of the Realm.  
What Miracles are continually wrought at Saint Patrick's purgatory: at the Holy Cross at Saint Sundays well: and doth not all the north of Ireland admire the Miracles that have been wrought by Saint Column Kell?  
But let me draw somewhat near to your College itself, are you not eye witnesses how every 17. of March, what flocking there is of men women and children, to that same holy sanctified pool, Saint Patrick's well, I hope you do not think the whole multitude, that do so yearly frequent the place to be stark mad, to come running thither so thick, if they did not find somesanctitie in the water? I warrant you they are not so arrant fools, as a number of those that do use to take Tobacco, that will be still stuffing themselves with smoke but upon a vain conceit.  
But is not this a miracle especially to be admired, to see so many women Tavern keepers, that for conscience sake, will eat no flesh on Fridays, that some of them do not ride in a Cart on saturdays.  Pa. 
Sir Tady, if these miracles be any confirmation to your Romish religion, I could furnish your store, with such like, as for the reverence of the Reader I shame, and for the honour of God I fear to speak of.  
But this is a miracle in our eyes, to see that the papists should affy themselves in a religion, that is but propped up with such stuff as this, & we do as much wonder to see their blindness, that will be drawn from the truth of God's word to believe such gross and palpable follies, lies fables, and fantasies of their own devising but that the Apostle hath given us this caveat: And therefore God shall send them strong delusions, that they should believe Lies, that all they might be damned, which beteeved not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2. Thes. 2.  Ta. 
Do you callthese fables, lies fantasies, & I cannot tell what, that are thus fortified and confirmed, under these authorities?  Pa. 
I say, we may boldly pronounce your Romish religion to be accursed, that would bring that blessed Virgin in comparison with God and jesus Christ, thereby eclipsing the glory of God's mercy, and the worthiness of Christ's satisfaction.  Ta. 
If you fall a cursing of those that do give honour to the Queen of heaven herself, what will you pronounce against those that do both honour and worship to the Image of our Lady?  Pa. 
Do not you think that the worshipping of Images is flat Idolatry?  Ta. 
Yes if you mean the worshipping of the Idols of the heathen.  Pa. 
I mean the Images of the virgin Mary, of Peter, of Paul, or of Christ himself.  Ta. 
Do you call the Image of Christ an Idol?  Pa. 
If it be worshipped, it is an Idol, and the burning of Incense unto it, is flat Idolatry.  Ta. 
Dare any damned heretic avouch this?  Pa. 
It is approved by the second commandment, Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven Image, nor the likeness of any thing, that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath.  Ta. 
But doth this precept touch the Image of Christ, or our blessed Lady?  Pa. 
It toucheth any thing that is made with hands, that is worshipped, bowed, or kneeled unto.  Ta. 
This can not be understood of the Image of the true God, for if the Images of Princes may be reverenced, and no Idolatry committed, much more the Image of God.  Pa. 
Earthly similitudes of man's own making, must not control the heavenly precepts of Gods own giving: the Images of Princes, of those meaner personages, may well be tolerated, and yet to bow the knee, to lift up the hand, or to do worship to such an Image, there is no doubt, but it were Idolatry.  
God hath commanded and that directly that no graven Image should be made, now if any graven Image of God might be worshipped, why might it not be made, since it cannot be worshipped before it be made?  Ta. 
O monstrous abomination, what an heresy is this, that the Image of the true God should be accounted for an Idol.  Pa. 
The Image of the true God, being made with hands, is a false God, and no likeness of his, but a lewd and a foolish imagination of those that would so imagine it, for what resemblance hath a dead stock, or a stone, fashioned like a man, and painted or gilded over, to the glorious, invisible, and infinite majesty of the ever living God: and how dare any man defend the worshipper of such an Image, when God himself hath accursed the maker.  Ta. 
Idolatries' be those when they be done to the Images themselves, but our worshippings are not such, for we worship not the earthly matter or shape, but rather the things that are represented by them.  Pa. 
So did the Israelites, when they set up the golden Calf, to testify their thankfulness for their deliverance out of Egypt, they erected an Image unto God their deliverer, and proclaimed a holy day (not to the Calf) but to the Lord.  Ta. 
May we not give some reverence to the Image of Christ though he be in heaven, aswell as you do to the Thrones and Letters of Princes, when themselves be not present?  Pa. 
What grosser Idolatry may be committed, if we may not worship the creatures themselves, that are the works of God's hands: and yet will adore and worship those Images and Idols, that are but the works of men's hands.  Ta. 
Is is not acceptable unto GOD to have the shape of his Son always before our eyes, that we may the rather honour him in our hearts?  Pa. 
And sith without Images we must remember the Father that made us (which cannot be resembled to any similitude) why should we forget the Son that hath redeemed us, but we must have an Image at our elbow, to put us in remembrance.  Ta. 
It is testified that the Apostles themselves did both make and worship Images.  Pa. 
It had need be a strong testimony that should confirm that for a certain truth.  Ta. 
You will hardly believe that Christ himself made the likeness of his own face and sent it to king Abaragus.  Pa. 
I could sooner believe he sent it to the Queen rather than to the king himself;  Ta. 
And why more to the Queen then to the king himself.  Pa. 
Perhaps he might send it to the Queen for a love token  Ta. 
Patrick where have you learned to speak of these nipping jests that you have in such a readiness.  Pa. 
Sir Tady where have you learned to shake of these shameless lies which you have in such abundance.  Ta. 
I tell ye it is testified for certain that he sent it to king Abaragus himself.  Pa. 
I tell ye I cannot believe any of these obscure fooleries.  Ta. 
You will say it is but a fable, that the Image of our Lady was drawn by Saint Luke.  Pa. 
But do you find this to be set down for a written verity?  Ta. 
What else: it is testified and confidently delivered by Simion Metaphrastes an ancient writer.  Pa. 
Doth not your ancient author make mention who it was that made our ladies Coach?  Ta. 
As though our Lady that bare Christ did ever ride in a Coach.  Pa. 
Why not ride in a Coach aswell as have her Picture drawn, where it is common amongst Ladies in this age: and me thinks Simion Metaphrastes should aswell have made mention of the one as he did of the other.  Ta. 
I see you are too full of scoffs, and I could wish you to leave them.  Pa. 
I do but toss you back your own balls such as you yourself first served to the house, and mine answers I am sure are not so ridiculous as the matters you appose.  Ta. 
I appose you with nothing, but what hath been testified by the fathers of the church, whose writings, although many of them be perished yet being left unto us by tradition they must be beleeu●d.  Pa. 
And under the names and titles of these Catholic fathers, no small store of monkish impieties have been forged, but the wisdom of God hath so provided for his church that they are well enough discovered.  Ta. 
I perceive you are very vehement against the worshipping of Images, what say you then to the Invocation of the holy Saints themselves, may we call upon them in the time of necessity?  Pa. 
Come unto me (saith our saviour) all you that are laden and I will ease you. if he himself hath so lovingly called us if we refuse him and seek toanother, it is of some distrust that we have of him, and what is that but to make God a liar and not to think him true in the promise he hath made unto us.  Ta. 
Well I perceive there will nothing digest with you but Scriptures, look into the 5. of job, how like you of those words call now if any will answer thee, and turn thee to some of the Saints:  Pa. 
The words of Elyphaze one of jobs friends who speaketh not of the Saints departed, but wisheth job to consider, whither any of the godly then living did so rage and murmur, against God as he did.  Ta. 
But that God will accept of other men's prayers for us, look into the 4▪ 2 of job, when his wrath being kindled against Elyphaze and his friends, he would not hear themselves, but accepted jobs prayers for them.  Pa. 
Elyphaze and his two friends, because they contemned job, and preferred their own righteousness: God therefore to pull down their pride, and to give a testimony of jobs Innocency faith and patience, sendeth Elyphaze and his fellows to job promising to accept his prayers for them: but papists are near driven when they must fetch confirmation out of the old testament for the Invocation of Saints when their own Jesuits do confess that before Christ's ascension, praying to Saints were not in use especially of those that were dead and diseased, which by the opinion of the papists were in Limbo, till Christ's ascension:  Ta. 
The fathers of the old testament did often allege and appose against gods wrath the names and merits of the holy patriarchs remember thy servant Abraham, Isaac and jacob, for thy servant Dauides sake refuse not thine anointed, and why may we not then stand upon Saints merits.  Pa. 
But these Invocations thus made, do not depend upon the merits of those holy patriarchs but upon the covenant and promise which God had made unto them, and to their posterity: so saith Moses, remember Abraham, Isaac, and jacob, thy servants to whom thou hast sworn by thine own self that thou wilt multiply their seed, and such other places there be sundry in the old testament.  Ta. 
It should stand with reason and common sense that like as we are first brought into the presence of earthly kings by favourites, and such as are in grace and liking about him even so do Saints, by their holy prayers, bring us to the presence and favour of the king of heaven.  Pa. 
Call upon me in the day of trouble saith God by his Prophet, and I will hear thee: if any man sin (saith Saint john) we have an advocate with the father jesus Christ.  
No man cometh to the father but by the son, and whatsoever we shall ask in Christ's name we shall obtain the same undoubtedly.  
These and many otherlike places we have in the Scriptures that send us to Christ, now if you can show us but one text, that doth command us to pray unto saints, it shall suffice, I will never contend further.  Ta. 
If we have no text, of Scripture that doth command it, yet being (as it is) approved by the Romish Church, is as much as we care for.  Pa. 
Your Romish church indeed doth avouch what she● list, without care, without cause, without shame, or without sense.  Ta. 
That the Saints are not only mediators and intercessors for us, & that they have sometimes a hand in our redemption, doth plainly appear by this prayer that the church of Rome readeth publyquely upon Saint Thomas Beckets' day that was sometynes bishop of Canturbury, which followeth in these words, Dens, pro ovius Eclesia etc. O God, for whose Church the glorious Bishop Thomas, was put to death, by the sword of the wicked, grant we beseech thee, that all that desire his help may attain the effect of their petition to salvation:  
By this it doth appear, how that glorious Bishop Thomas, did shed his blood for the church of God: And that the mystery might the more plainly appear, mark yet again this second prayer contained in these words.  
Tu, per Tho: sanguinem etc. Thou O Chryst, cause us to come thither where Thomas is even for the blood which he shed for thy sake.  
By this it appeareth that this holy Martyr is not only a mediator but a redeemer, for here we make intercession unto Christ that by the blood which Thomas shed, we may come where Thomas is, the words are plain.  Pa. 
And that is to the infernal pit of Hell, O doctrine of diveles that doth teach the silly people to fly from the blood of Christ, to seek there salvation in the blood of a Traitor, a seditious wretch that was only canonized by the Pope for his Traitorous demeanour and disobedience to his lawful prince:  
I tell you sir Tady you could not havesought out a fitter fragment whereby to make manifest the adulterous religion of your whorish church of Rome, than this that you have brought of that traitor Thomas Becket.  Ta. 
I thought as much before that you would take exceptions to him, because he with stood the prince, for the Catholic cause but I hope you will take no exceptyons to those invocations that have been dedicated to our blessed Lady, whereof there are no small store, one amongst the rest O Mariagloriosa etc. O Marry glorious, in dainties delicious, prepare thou glory for us.  
Again, Mariamater Domini etc. O Marry the Mother of our Lord, the son of the eternal God, help us all that fly for help unto thee: Again, Maria gratia etc. O Marry the mother of grace, the mother of mercy, defend thou us from our ghostly enemies, & receive us at the hour of death.  
Yet again, Veni Regina gentium etc. come Queen of the Gentiles, extinguish the fiery heat of our sins, blot out whatsoever is a miss, and cause us to lead an innocent life. These and many other that might be named all of them proving that the invocation of Saints hath been both approved and had in use in the church of Rome, and I hope you have heard of our Lady's Psalter, that was printed at Paris almost 100 years since, where the whole number of the 150 Psalms are turned from Dominus to Domina, quite topsy-turvy from our Lord to our Lady.  Pa. 
I do not so much wonder at that (Sir Tady) when now in the hottest Sun shine of the Gospel, we see almost every day whole Lordships to be sold, and but to uphold Ladishippes: but to speak reverently of that blessed Virgin, for the fruit of whose womb, all generations do call her blessed, her glory doth not so much consist in the bearing of Christ, as in her steadfast faith, and believing in Christ▪ which caused her joyfully to sing: My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour: And therefore what Papists do attribute for honour, is plain blasphemy to that blessed Virgin, for Christ being our hope (and not our Lady) they ascribing to her what she is not, do thereby dishonour God, and do her no worship at all.  
How wicked a thing is it then to think that the Saints do sometimes plague and punish us because we do them not that superstitious honour, which is their dishonour, and not only our shame, but also our sin.  Ta. 
I see the repugnancy of our religion to be such, as there is no hope of reconcilement; for what we acknowledge to be holy, that you say is profane, and those rites and ceremonies, which we do most endeavour for devotions sake, in the exercise whereof we do seek our greatest piety, those you condemn to be superstitious, Idolatrous, and blasphemous, and that our whole religion is nothing else, but sacrilege, and a dishonouring of God, I will therefore reason no further in these matters, that I see will not be holpen, but tell me now in the way of good-fellowship, did you ever see a priest say Mass?  Pa. 
I will never deny it Sir Tady, I confess I have seen a Mass.  Ta. 
Then you have not lived altogether so irreligiously, but that you have once seen a Mass, but tell me truly, how did you like it?  Pa. 
O passing well, I never saw a thing that better pleased me, but once:  Ta. 
And what was that one thing, that you say pleased you better?  Pa. 
It was a Puppet play, that was played at Dubline, but now this last summer.  Ta. 
Then the sight of a Puppet play, was better pleasing to you then the sight of a Mass.  Pa. 
When your priest hath put on his masking apparel, and hath gotten all his trinkets about him, if there were an Irish Bagpiper by, that had a deep Drone, to play and entertain the time whilst the priest were in his Memento, and had made an end of all his dumb shows: what with the music of the one, and the gestures of the other, it would pass all the Puppet plays in the world.  Ta. 
Now I am of the like conceit of your holy communion, that is but a profanation of the blessed Sacrament, and no ways concordable with Christ's institution, where you neither receive the flesh of Christ, nor use adoration.  Pa. 
The flesh of Christ is both eaten in the spirit, and adored in the spirit, yea the very eating of it, is adoring of it, sith it is not eaten but by believing for he that believeth not eateth not the flesh of Christ.  Ta. 
As though the flesh of Christ were not enclosed in the form of bread, and corporally eaten with the mouth of man.  Pa. 
But doth the infidel or unbelieving man receive Christ so really as you say, if he receive your sacrament?  Ta. 
The denial of it is the high way to all those heresies that are held by the Protestants, and till they believe that, what do they but blaspheme the doctrine of the Catholic Church.  Pa. 
And the misconstruction of Christ's words is it that leadeth the papists to their Idolatry.  Ta. 
For our misconstruction take you no thought, for we are passed all fear of that.  Pa. 
And those that are past all fear are commonly past all recovery, and he is in most danger of death, that in an extremity of sickness feeleth it least.  Ta. 
Our intent is to worship Christ, we have no meaning to worship the elements, of bread and wine (as you untruly report) but the blessed body of Christ, that is contained in those accydents of bread and wine.  Pa. 
But speak truly (Sir Tady) do you adore the body of Christ in the mysteries by a spiritual understanding, or do you adore the mysteries themselves?  Ta. 
Finding him really and corporally in the sacrament, there we worship him, where we find him.  Pa. 
If your zeal be such, to worship Christ in every place where you find him, why do you not worship the Priest when he hath been at mass, or any other man, that is a member of the Church.  Ta. 
Do you think that Christ is no otherwise in the Sacrament, than he is in a mortal man.  Pa. 
I tell thee, he is more truly, really, and naturally in those men that be his members, than he is in the elements that be used at his table.  Ta. 
O blasphemy, blasphemy, O horrible and shameless heresy, is any mortal man, transubstantiated into Christ as the elimentes are by power of consecration.  Pa. 
The words of Saint Paul. 2. Corin. 13. Know ye not yourselves, that Christ is in you, except ye be reprobate persons.  
Away now with your transubstantiating the elimentes into Christ: the sacrament is no part of the mystical body of Christ as we are, for we are knit unto him, even by the truth of his and our nature, flesh and substance, as members of the same body to their head: the sacrament is but only annexed as a sign to the heavenly grace, and therefore your imagination of this real presence is audible heresy, and your worshipping the elimentes of bread and wine, abominable Idolatry.  Ta. 
But tell me Patrick, is this the doctrine of your College?  Pa. 
No Sir Tady, it is the doctrine of Christ, that is read and taught in the College.  
It was pity that Academe of heresy, was ever founded, for sith the erection of that paltry school house, the Catholic religion is despised, God is dishonoured, and our blessed Lady, is out of all request, throughout the whole Realm of Ireland.  Pa. 
O good Sir Tady be not deceived, Ladies were never in better request than they be at this day in Dublyne.  Ta. 
You are contemners of the Catholic religion, & in your not adoring the blessed sacrament you dishonour God.  Pa. 
I wonder from whence you do fetch your adoration, we have warrant in the scriptures, to take and eat, but not to kneel down and worship.  Ta. 
Did not Christ say this is my body?  Pa 
He did so, but is that all that you have to say for your worshipping.  Ta. 
Doth not your College teach, that Christ is always present with us here on earth?  Pa. 
Our Saviour himself hath spoke it: Lo I am always present with you, till the end of the world.  Ta. 
That's well yet, that you are conformable to some thing.  Pa. 
His divinity no doubt is always present with us, but in his humanity, neither really, locally, nor corporally, as the papist doth grossly imagine.  Ta. 
Are you there again with your Bears, I say if he be present with us, it must needs be corporally, and locally comprised in the forms of bread and wine, in the blessed sacrament.  Pa. 
You make your real and corporal presence to be a shelter for your errors, but that being false, as long since hath been proved, what are you then but most audible idolaters.  Ta. 
I say that after the words of consecration are once spoken by the priest, the eliments of bread and wine are presently transubstantiated into the blessed body of Christ really and substantially, as he was borne of the virgin Mary, and what think you now, is not the son of God worthy to be worshipped?  Pa. 
No doubt of it (Sir Tady) but the son of God is worthy of all honour, but do you think him to be there indeed, in these forms as you have spoke of?  Ta. 
It hath been so received amongst the Catholics for an undoubted article for these many hundred years.  Pa. 
I do ask you Sir Tady in the more ceremonious manner, because I have heard of a mad conceited knight, that was an Essex man called by the name of Sir john Raynsforde: who in Queen Mary's days, being in the company of Edmond Bonner, than Bishop of London, who suspecting the knight to be adverse to their religion, would needs urge him to make manifest to the world, what he did believe of the blessed sacrament of the Altar: thereby to show himself to be an obedient child truly legitimate to the Catholic Church.  
The Knight would give no other answer, but that he believed as the Bishop himself believed, and prayed the Bishop to speak truly what he himself did think in the matter.  
To whom the Bishop answered, that he shamed not to make free confession of his faith, at all times, and in all places: And to satisfy your demand (said the Bishop) my belief is that in the sacrifice of the Mass, after the priest hath spoken the words of consecration, there remaineth no more bread nor wine, but the blessed body of jesus Christ, is there really contained under the forms of bread and wine.  
Very well (said the knight) it is an easy matter for a man to believe all this: but what else what else, what do you think more of that blessed sacrament? why (quoth) the Bishop, what should I think more than I have already said: I think that after the words of consecration being spoken by the priest, that there remaineth the blessed body of jesus Christ, flesh blood and bone, as he was borne of the virgin Mary.  
The Knight began in a ceremonious manner to protest how his belief was, that after the priest had spoken the words of consecration: Hoc est Corpus meum, that under the forms of bread and wine, Christ was there remaining, in a suit of Russet Satin, a velvit Cap, and a feather on his head: a Spanish Cope on his back, a pair of silk stockings, and a guilt Rapier & Dagger by his side.  
How think you now Sir Tady, by the knight's opinion, I promise you for my part, I believe the Bishop and him both alike.  Ta. 
Have I all this while listened for such a conclusion: but tell me Patrick what became of that knight, was he not burned for his heresy.  Pa. 
It is more heresy for a man to believe that Christ is in the sacrament gentlemanlike, then for our massing priests of Ireland, to suit themselves in that generous manner every day when they list?  Ta. 
Well Patrick I do see you are so blinded with presumption and rebellion against the Catholic Church, that you will believe nothing, but what is pleasing to your own fantasy.  Pa. 
Nay, what an absurdity is in you to think that Christ is eaten and devoured by the wicked: Christ entereth the soul, but not the mouth of man: Eat you, this is my body, Drink you, this is my blood: these speeches cannot be religious, except they be figurative, for this gross conceit of a carnal eating, was it that offended the Caperniates in the sixth of john.  
Yet that great favourer of Popery of England Sir Thomas Moor that Bellarmine so much extols for his wit and learning, doth literally press those words of Christ against john Fryth in this manner following: The very circumstance of the place in the Gospel in which our Saviour speaketh of that sacrament, may well make open the difference of his speeches in this matter and of all the other: and that as he spoke all those but in an Allegory, so spoke he this plainly, meaning that he spoke of his very body and his very blood, besides all Allegories: For when our Lord said he was a very Vine, and when he said he was a door, there was none that heard him, that any thing marveled thereat: And why, for because they perceived well that he meant not that he was a material Vine or door indeed, but when he said that his flesh was very meat, and his blood very drink, and that they should not be saved, but if they did eat his flesh, and drink his blood, than were they all in such a wonder thereof, that they could not abide. And wherefore, but because they perceived well by his words, and his manner of circumstances, that Christ spoke of his very flesh and his very blood.  
Now if master Moor's opinion be true, that the Capernaites, lighted on the same manner of eating that Christ proposed unto them, than they deserved rather praise then blame: but they mistook the words of Christ, who went about to teach them the spiritual eating of his flesh, and drinking of his blood, for so doth he himself expound his own words afterwards to his Disciples, teaching them how they should be both faithful partakers of his flesh, and rightful interpreters of his speeches: And as many fathers as have written of that place, have so understood it, the which our Jesuits knowing well enough, and are driven to confess that those words were spiritually meant, they are therefore enforced to fly from that place which Moor so confidently avoweth for that carnal eating and drinking, and will in no wise admit those words in the 6. of john to appertain to any thing that was spoken by Christ at his last supper, but do only stick as close to their Hoc est corpus meum, as the Cuckoo to her song.  
Pope Innocent, understanding that place of the sixth of john, as that great clerk spoken of before Moor had done: caused young children and infants to receive the sacrament; And of this carnal mind were many other Bishops a long time, yet afterwards looking more spiritually upon the matter, they confessed their error.  
Saint Augustine, giving a certain rule how we should know the tropes, figures, allegories, and phrases of the scriptures, putteth this place of the 6. of john, out of all doubt and question: his words be these: When soever the Scripture, or Christ seemeth to command any foul or wicked thing, then must that text be taken figuratively: that is as it is a phrase, allegory, and manner of speaking, and must be understood spiritually, and not after the letter. Except (saith Christ) you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall have no life in you: he seemeth (saith Saint Augustine) to command a foul and wicked thing, it is therefore a figure, commanding us to be partakers of his passion, and sweetly and profitably, to print in our mind, that his flesh was crucified, and wounded for us.  Ta. 
But tell me Patrick, be these Saint Augustins own words that you have thus repeated?  Pa. 
You shall find them in his third book De doctrina Christiana: Cap. 16.  Ta. 
In despite of all you can allege out of Augustine, Ambrose, Peter, Paul, or Christ himself, I will believe nothing, but what the holy Catholic church of Rome doth teach and ratify.  Pa. 
Hold you still there Sir Tady, for that is the just reward of error, to be every day more perverse, more obstinate, and more malicious, toward the truth then other.  Ta. 
Do you deny that the body of Christ is not really contained in the blessed sacrament?  Pa. 
Flatly.  Ta. 
O dangerous impiety, O impious blasphemy, O most detestable and damnable heresy.  Pa. 
O now I see your chiding vain is come upon you sir Tady.  Ta. 
Is it possible for a Catholic priest to be patient, when every school boy, will be inveighing & itterating of matter against the faith of the Catholic church?  Pa. 
For your better satisfaction Sir Tady, that the flesh of Christ is spiritually eaten by faith and belief: what better proof than the patriarchs and Prophets of the old law, who before the incarnation of Christ, did eat his flesh, and drink his blood, but in believing the promise that Christ should come, as we do now in believing that he is come.  Ta. 
But they that do believe that the body and blood of Christ is in the sacrament indeed, have the plain words of our Saviour himself, for the ground and foundation of their faith.  Pa. 
So have they the very words of God: which say that a broken potsherd is jerusalem.  Ta. 
The Jesuits (you say) in the 6. of john, do acknowledge and confess a spiritual understanding, but in the delivering of the sacrament, we be sure he spoke of a corporal, and not of a spiritual eating of his body, for when our Lord said, Take eat this is my body, did he not mean they should take it with their hands, and eat it with their mouths, and therefore either the one place doth but serve to expound the other, or else in both places is prescribed a real and a corporal eating of the flesh of Christ.  Pa. 
In those words Take eat, spoke at the last supper, no doubt, he meant the corporal eating of that creature which he then gave them. And when he added, This is my body: he recalled to their minds the doctrine he had formerly taught them of eating of the flesh & drinking of his blood, in which because they were instructed by the Capernaits error, & their masters declaration of himself: That the words that he had spoke were spirit and life, they neither started nor wondered at the matter, because they knew his speeches to be allegorical:  Ta. 
But with what confidence is it avowed by our saviour when he said, Verily verily I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you:  Pa. 
And with what vehemency in the very same place doth he affirm when he saith, verily verily I say unto you, he that believeth in me hath everlasting life: thus you see, he that believeth only eateth the flesh and drinketh the blood of Christ, for if eating and drinking in this place, were referred to the mouth and teeth, judas, or any other infidel that were partakers at the lords Table, could not perish: or else it must follow, that to believe in Christ were better than Christ himself, which were a great absurdity, for any man to think: And Christ himself hath said, he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in me & I in him: now we know that sometimes the wicked do eat the sacrament and yet they neither dwell in Christ, nor Christ in them.  Ta. 
Well Patryck, I must not give you over thus, I have yet some other nuts for you to crack before I leave you.  Pa. 
Le's see what manner of nuts they be, you shall see I will make a shift to crack them, and if they be ought worth, I may hap to keep the kernels to myself, & leave the shells to you.  Ta. 
To prove the real presence in the sacrament, I will avouch those writers, that all the Protestants in Ireland, are not able to contradict.  Pa. 
Out with them in God's name, letus hear what they be  Ta. 
I will first begin with that great and learned Clarke Durandus, who did confidently affirm, that Christ is present in the sacrament to the mouth and teeth of the receiver, but he consenteth with Hugo That we must seek no longer for a corporal presence then whilst we are achamming of him in our mouth.  
So long as he doth remain, In visu, & sapore, so long we have him, but these two will in no wise permit, that he should be swallowed in the stomach: but this is enough, they both of them ac, knowledge a real presence to the mouth and teeth: but now comes Bonaventure, & he affirmeth flatly, that he is no less present in the stomach, than he is in the mouth: marry whether he goes down to the belly or Noah, he stands in doubt, because of the diversity of opinions that are holden: and yet he liketh not, That the body of Christ should go into the belly of a mouse, or be cast forth by the drought. And here he showeth a Catholic reason why: Because the ears of well disposed persons would abhor that: and heretics, and Infidels would jest at it, and laugh us to scorn that would defend it: But Alexander de Hales, in despite of heretics and infidels both, doth confidently affirm that: if a dog or a hogg should eat the whole consecrated Host, is no cause (saith he) but the lords body should go there withal into the belly of that dog or hogg.  
But now amongst the rest blessed Thomas Aquinas that holy Saint, doth sharply reprove those that think contrary: Some have said (saith he) that as soon as the sacrament is taken of a mouse, or a dog, strait way the body & blood of Christ doth cease to be there, but this is a derogation to the truth of this Sacrament.  Pa. 
But tell me truth Sir Tady have you not wronged those Authors, that you have here named, have you cited their words no other wise than they themselves have set them down?  Ta. 
Now God and our blessed Lady defend that I should so injury them, it were a shame for me to bely them, their own works are extant and to be seen, and there are a huge swarm of others, a whole sect of Thomistes that do uphold all these positions, enough to make all the protestants that be in Ireland to blush, but that they are past shame.  
But amongst the rest, and for the better credit to the cause: Antonius, Archbishop of Florence, and Petrus de ṗludo, joined both together affirming that the body of Christ, may not only be eaten of a mouse, but also it may be vomited up by the mouth, and purged down to the draft, these be their own words.  
Therefore the body and blood of Christ remain in the belly, or stomach, or vomit, or in whatsoever course of nature: so long as the shows of bread and wine remain, & if they be vomited, or purged before they be altered (as sometimes with those that are troubled with the flux) even there is the body of Christ.  Pa. 
O peace Sir Tady no more for the shame of yourself, & of all the papists in the world, be these the nuts you have to crack? O loathsome stuff unfit to be spoken of: mine cares do glow to hear these gross and barbarous repetitions: is this the real presence that you so much strive for? are these the learned authorities, which you so highly extol, call you these Saints that do teach such filthy and loathsome divinity? no marvel though you account traitors for martyrs when your Pope hath such cunning to make Saints of blasphemers.  Ta. 
I tell thee true, that some of these that I have named are Saints Canonised by the Church of Rome, and for the divinity they have taught and spread, if it were not sound, religious and holy, do you think it could pass as it doth, ratified confirmed and approved by the mother Church, so many years uncorrected or uncontrolled?  
But I cannot blame ye though you blush, you may well be ashamed to see our holy Mass, that so many heretics do seek to impugn, how it is established upholden and fortified, by no mean nor simple authority I warrant ye.  Pa. 
I see indeed that those that have no regard of their consciences before God, have less care of their credits before men, but it is time to give over reasoning with papists, when they seek out such nuts as these be for protestants to crack, and some other business calling me away, I will therefore leave you.  Ta. 
Well Patrick then for a parting blow, let me advise thee yet a little for thine own good, be not obstinate, but be ruled by me it shall be for thy benefit.  Pa. 
What is it sir Tady, to forsake my religion, & to turn papist  Ta. 
A papist as you call it, but in truth a true christian, & a●●●cōciled child to the Catholic Church, thou shalt thereby show thyself to be a natural Hibernian, where now thou remainest a stain to thy country: what an Irishman a protestant? it is Rara avis in terris.  
I will tell thee Patrick, and I will tell thee truly, thou wert better to be reputed a traitor to the King, then to be accounted as thou art, thus open mouthed against the Pope, the one perhaps may find some few enemies to prosecute him, but the other shall find every man ready to persecute him.  Pa. 
Sir Tady when I mean to turn traitor to the King I will follow your counsel, I will turn papist. Ta. And until thou dost show thyself to be a professed papist indeed, thou shalt find little friendship in Ireland. And so farewell.  
FINIS.