AN ANSWER TO M R. FISHER THE JESVITE, HIS FIVE PROPOSITIONS CONCERNING LUTHER. By Mr. ROGERS, that wor●●● Oxford Divine. With some passages also of the said Mr. Rogers with the said Mr. Fisher. Hereunto is annexed Mr. W. C. his Dialogue of the said Argument, wherein is disco●●●●d FISHER'S FOLLY. Printed M.DC.XXIII. M R. FISHER THE JESVITE, HIS FIVE PROPOSITIONS CONCERNING 1. Luther. 2. Doctrine. 3. Names. 1. THere is one, and but one true infallible faith, Eph. 4. Heb. 11. without which none can please God: nor consequently attain eternal salvation. 2. Rom. 10. Eph. 4. This infallible faith cannot be had (according to the ordinary course of God's providence) but by hearing Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church, who only are lawfully sent and authorized to teach the true word of God. 3. As therefore this one infallible faith hath been, Ose. 2. Isa. 56. Mat. 18. Eph. 4. and must be in all ages: so there must be in all age's Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church, of whom all sorts of people have in times past (as appeareth by histories) learned, and must in all future times learn the said infallible faith. 4. Hence it followeth, that if Protestants be the true visible Church of God, than all sorts of men who in every age have had the aforesaid infallible faith, have learned it by hearing Protestant Preachers, whose names may be found: who in every former age did teach and convert people of several Nations unto the faith of Christ. 5. Hence further it followeth, that if there cannot (as there cannot) be found in History the names of Protestant Preachers, who in all ages did teach all sorts of faithful people, and who convertd several Nations unto the Christian faith; hence it followeth I say, that the Protestants are not the true visible Church of Christ, neither are their Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach, nor the people securely warranted to learn of them that one infallible faith, without which none can please God, nor if they so live and die can be saved. 1. Names. 2. Doctrine. If any Protestant will answer the premises, let him set down the Names of Protestant Preachers in all ages, who taught the people Protestant Doctrine in every several age: or else confess that there were no such before Luther: or at least not in all ages to be found in History. TO THE CHRISTIAN READER. CHristian Reader, There came to my hands by the good providence of God this small Treatise, touching a conference betwixt one Mr. Rogers an Oxford Divine, and one Mr. Fisher a jesuite: as it should seem it was sent enclosed to a Gentleman of good worth and worship one this side the Seas, having read it over, and perceiving it to be of very necessary use for my Countrymen of England, (whose good I desire from my heart) I have adventured to publish it to the view of the world: the rather, because therein is notably laid open and convinced, the weak grounds of the five propositions of Mr. Fisher the jesuite, who is as I hear, so much admired of English papists; the which Fisher, Sweet, Brierly, Clerk, with others of that company, do study and strive with all might and main by divulging their written papers, as also their Printed Books full of lies and untruths: nay I say, Books full of blasphemy against the grea● God of heaven, as namely that Book Entitled. The uncasing of Heresy, written by O. A: and all to make proselytes of their own faction, to ruin that flourishing Church and Commonwealth. I beseech the great God of heaven, to raise up daily worthy Divines more and more to defend his own cause, against the Kingdom of Antichrist, and wicked instruments, being very dangerous persons both against Church and Common wealth. Read it with the 〈…〉 joined, & so by God's blessing thou shalt reap 〈◊〉 fit by it, and g●ue all glory to God above, who in 〈◊〉 will ●e●●esse things that are amiss. THE ANSWER TO THE MASSPRIESTS DEMANDS, CONCERNING 1. Doctrine. and 2. Names. Rogers. THe three first positions I admit. 1. that there is one faith. 2. That the ordinary propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called. 3. That there have been, and must be in all ages such Pastors so called. 4. I would gladly know what they mean by those words, [If the Protestants be the true visible Church] whether so, as if we alone (who are commonly called Protestants) were of the Church, and no others? we leave such enclosing of commons to the Romanists, we challenge it not. We are a true Church, not the true Church; we are a part, not the whole: we include ourselves, we exclude not others: whether Grecians, Armenians, Aethiopians, Spaniards, or Italians, &c: yet so they deny no fundamental part of the faith, either directly, or by consequent. 5. In the first, I desire to know whether they require we should show the Names of Protestants in Histories, or their faith; this we will show, that we need not: for the name of Protestants is but arbitrary and accidental from a protestation made in Germany; and from the like accidents we may call the Romanists Protestant's, for many protestations made in the Council of Trent, Registered in their public Acts. But if it be really meant thus; let the Protestants show that their now faith was taught by lawful Pastors in all ages: I do (with God's help) undertake it, and require the same from the Authors of these propositions and demands. This will I prove by three Argument. 1. A Causis. 2. A Signis. 3. Ab Exemplis. Which is the only satisfaction here demanded: but I must desire the authors not to affect obscurity, or to alter their words, which may alter their meaning, as in the five propositions they have with the multitude of needless words obscured the matter: the fourth being briefly and plainly this. 4. If the Protestants be a true Church, their faith hath been taught in all ages by lawful Pastors. This I grant also. The sum of the fift is briefly this. 5. If the Names of Protestant Pastors in all ages cannot be showed, than the Protestants are not a true Church. This I deny to be of undoubted consequence, for the Argument negatively from authority is of no force. In your Demands, you require the Names of such as taught the Protestants Doctrines in all ages: whereas all your propositions before were of faith, as if all Doctrines were points of faith. Now Sat my Arguments. 1. The faith contained in Scriptures hath been taught in all ages. But the faith of the Protestants is contained in Scriptures: Ergo, The faith of the Protestants hath been taught in all ages. 2. That faith which hath the testimony of antiquity, universality, and consent, was taught in all ages by lawful Pastors. The faith of the Protestants hath these testimonies: Ergo, The faith of the Protestants was taught in all ages. 3. That faith which hath been taught by Authors visible in all ages, is the true faith. But the Protestant faith hath been so maintained by such Authors: Ergo, The Protestant faith hath been maintained in all ages. The Names of such as professed the faith of the Protestants in all ages, since the incarnation of Christ. In every centure of years, which is called saculum, an age: I will name some writers whose works are extant. Ab anno 1. ad 100 In the first centure Christ himself, and his Apostles, and Evangelists. Ab 100 ad 100 In the second age Saint john the Evangelist, who died either Anno 100, or 101: to him we add Ignatius, and Polycarpus, who though they lived in part of the first age, and part of the second age, they are always reckoned Fathers of that age in which they died: to these I add justin Martyr, Iraenaeus. Ab ●●●. ad 3●0 Tertullian, Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, Cyprian, Lac●antius. Ab 300. ad 400 Athanasius, Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus, Ambrose, Gregorius Mystenus, Hieronymus, Ruffinus, Chrysostomus. Ab 400. ad 500 Augustinus, Cyrillus Alexandrinus, Theodoretus, Vincentius ●●riuensis, Socrate●, Zozomen, Chrysologus. Ab 500 ad 600 Bulgentius, ●u●grius, Gregorius primus. Ab 70●. ad 100L Beda, Damascenus, Alcu●nus. Thus having gone half the way, I conclude with this Argument. The Protestants saith is plainly expressed in the Canonical Scripture, and comprised in the Apostles Creed. All these Fathers did profess that faith which is contained in the holy Canonical Scripture, and comprised in the Apostles Creed: Ergo, All these did profess the Protestants faith. As I admonished Mr. Fisher to distinguish between Affirmation and Negation, so I do these men: and that faith is Affirmation, not Negation, for no man believeth which he denieth. Secondly in point of faith I like Mr. Fe. rule. They that are in the affirmative, must prove now all that we affirm: they affirm, as one God, three Persons, &c. all the Creed; so that we need not prove what our adversaries do confess. But in those points in variance between us, they are to prove; because they are affirmative, we negative: as unwritten Traditions, Latin Service, invocation of Saints, etc. The Protestants faith being that which is contained in the Scriptures, received fo● undoubtedly Canonical in the first 400. years, which is summarily comprised in the Apostles Creed, is received by all the Orthodox Fathers. But those Fathers above named be all Orthodox: Ergo, The Mayor is manifest: the Minor I will prove out of their own Authors, concerning all saving Tertullian, in whom I must distinguish the times: for first he was Orthodox, though after an Heretic. Having gone thus far at this time, I undertake for the rest: and do require the like from the Romanists, viz. That they will show me the Names of such as taught the now saith of the Church of Rome in all ages, and let them set me down the Names, as I have done. And for instances in points of Roman faith in all ages, I require these men to show me the Names of those who in the 1. 2. 3. centure of years did preach or profess unwritten traditions to be the rule of faith: 2, that the vulgar translation is authentical: 3, that there are 7 Sacraments properly so called, and no more: 4, that the Books of the Macchabees are Canonical: 5, transubstantiation: 6, Invocation of Saints: 7, worshipping of Images, etc. This rule is proposed by them, which though it be no necessary consequence of faith, yet it bindeth them that propose it to make good in particular: out of their own position thus I argue. That is the true Church whose faith hath had visible professors in all ages. The Romish faith had not visible professors in all ages: Ergo, The Roman Church is not a true Church. another Argument. The true faith hath the testimonies of universalitie, Antiquity, and Consent. But the Romish faith (as fare as they differ from the Protestant faith, which they do in all the points above alleged) hath not testimonies of 1. Universality. 2. Antiquity. 3. And Consent. Ergo, The Romish faith is not a true faith. Let the Romanists answer these two Arguments in those particular points above written, and I will be of their Church. An Admonition to the Reader. I Do not so mean that those Fathers by me named have expressly set down every point of our faith in their several writings, neither can the Church of Rome do it for theirs. But being Orthodox right believing Fathers, they did consequently maintain the Scriptures, & Apostles Creed. Some passages had between Master Rogers, and Master Fisher the jesuite, as followeth. Fisher. It being granted that there must be a visible Church in all ages, of which all sorts must learn faith necessary to salvation. Rogers. The perpetual visibility of the Church I acknowledge; But I pray you set me down what a visible Church is, and what you mean by those words which you put of another letter, who you mean by all sorts? whether the Children who die before they come to years of discretion do learn this faith: or dying before they come to learn it, be not after Baptism parts of the visible Church. Secondly, What you mean by learn? whether an actual explicit knowledge, or an habitual only implicit knowledge? Thirdly, What points of faith you hold necessary to salvation? The question propounded by M. Fisher at the entreaty of a Gentleman who desired satisfaction, was: Fisher. Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages, especially in the ages before Luther: and whether the names of the professors thereof may be showed in all ages out of good Authors? Rogers. A Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doth, was visible in all ages: and I do undertake to prove it out of good Authors. Fisher. Mr. Fisher undertook to defend the negative part, so as it did belong to his adversaries to prove the affirmative. M. Fisher explicated the meaning of his question to be, First, That his adversaries should set down Names of men in all ages which they thought to be Protestants. Secondly, That they should show out of good Author's proof that they were Protestants. Thirdly, That they should defend them to hold nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Protestants, contained in the 39 Articles, unto which all English Ministers are sworn. Rogers. To the Second, First I will show the Names of such as maintained our now faith in all ages, and bring good proof. To the Third, First, It is no prejudice to our faith if the same Authors do differ from us in other opinions not concerning faith, as long as they maintain our faith. Secondly, The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all ages, who do not contradict the Council of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Council. Fisher. Mr. Fisher offered me a like proportion, to name, and prove, and defend professors of Roman religion, holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Council of Trent. Rogers. You must express whether you have all things defined in that Council to be matters of faith: if you do, you can never perform what you have promised, I desired you therefore M. Fisher to express without ambiguity the terms of this question: whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages? What you mean by Church? what by Protestants? what by visible? I will deliver my opinion in defining a Protestant Church. The Protestant Church, is a society of men professing the faith expressed in the Canonical Scriptures, acknowledged to be such in the Primitive Church, comprised in the Apostles Creed, explained in the other two Creeds of Nice, & Athanasius, Ministering the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper by men of lawful Ordination and calling. Such a society as this was in all ages: Ergo. The Protestant Church was in all ages. I desire you also to distinguish between matters of Discipline, & Doctrine. Secondly, to distinguish between. 1. Doctrine Accessory. And 2. Doctrine Fundamental. Matter of faith consisteth not in Discipline, but Doctrine: and that Doctrine not accessory, but fundamental. By this distinction I mean the same which Aquinas doth by Res fidei, 1. Per Se. 2. Per Accidens. I distinguish between. 1. Affirmation. And 2. Negation. In those Articles of our English Church, our negation is partly a traversing, partly a condemning of your novelties and additions: and therefore no part of our faith; for no man would deny his own faith; In all these I defend the Negative, and so it doth belong to you to prove the affirmative. Which when you shall do by testimony of writers in all ages, I will yield to you. For you proving the affirmative, the negative will fall of itself. As for example, the first instance of negation in our Articles, is no part of the sixth Article concerning those Books of Esdras, Toby, judith, &c: which we receive not for Canonical, you do: the proof is on your side. What I require of you, I will perform on our side: whatsoever is affirmative in our Articles, I will maintain to be affirmed and taught in all ages, as the 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Articles, the affirmative part of the 6. 7. 8, and so in the rest, or I will yield unto you: give me instance with affirmation of our Articles you deny, and I will prove it in all ages: and I desire you to set down withal, which of our affirmative Articles you receive: and whether we agree in the Articles of the Creed, or not. I will do the like by you, and give you an instance in your affirmatives: show me who in every age did receive the Books of Esdras, Machabies, Tobit, judeth, etc. for Canonical, in the 1. 2. 3. 4 centure of years; this is one of the first points of your Tridentive faith. I desire you also M. Fisher, for the avoiding of confusion to deliver your opinion, whether all the affirmative Doctrines of the Council of Trent are matters of faith Per se, fundamental and necessary to be held for salvation Fide explicata: I speak de adubtis quibus facultas datur discendi. And I do confess that none of your side, or ours, have given me ●ull satisfaction in this point, which are Res fidei per se. I therefore propose this M. Fisher as desirous to learn, and to lay a foundation for further proceeding in this point of the visible Church. Neither will I be sparing to deliver my opinion with submission to better men, and better leisure of my own, (having been these 6 months far from my Books, and farther from leisure or repose to study.) I do not think that all the affirmative Doctrines contained in our Articles, are Res fidei per se, fundamental, necessary to salvation. I therefore distinguish between Dogmata. 1. Scholae, these denied, work a private dissension. 2. Ecclesiae, these work an external separation from the Church. 3. Fidei, These denied, work an eternal damnation. By Ecclesiae, I mean not the essential Church, but representative, whether general, national, or provincial. That it is only an error in the latter, which is damnable, not in the first and second, unless it be with obstinacy. I will give you instance as well as I can, being without my Books. Consubstantiation was a School tenent Anno 1100, not a Church tenent. Transubstantiation was a Church tenent after the year 1200. 1. Ecclesiae Romanae, but the real presence, understanding thereby not a bodily presence, but a true relation, a Sacramental obligation, and spiritual exhibition of his body, is Res fidei, a point of faith. Or thus, Transubstantiation was a School tenent Anno 1100, a Church tenent Anno 1215, defined by Innocentius 3, in council. Latera: but no point of faith, because the body of religion or points of faith are without addition: As Lyrinensis: invitetur animarum religio rationem corporum quae & quotparuilorum membra tot virorum. And as Aquinas saith, The Articles of faith do grow quoad Explicationem. Non Quod ad substantiam. That which was no point of faith for the first 1200 years, could be none afterwards, ut supra Vincentius Lerinensis, & Aquinas. But transubstantiation was no point of faith before the year 1200: Scotus. Ergo, transubstantiation is no point of faith. If I do not cite the words of Scotus aright, impute it to my want of books, for I have none at this time, yet I would lay the foundation of a friendly conference without tricks, ambiguity, or bitterness. I desire you also to observe in the citing of the Fathers, to allege nothing for your opinion but what that Father hath held, written, and taught, apertè, frequenter, perseveranter, or at least that his words be plain, and his opinion such as that he hath not after recanted, or crossed in his later works. I think it reasonable also, that if I will justify the faith which is publicly professed and recessitated by our Church, that I produce not only some particular men delivering their opinions, but also proofs of some Church or visible society, who publicly professed the same faith in all ages. The like I expect from you. So the first thing is, to express what is your faith, what is ours. Next, what Society in all ages professed, and publicly recessitated with your Church or ours, do publicly teach and recessitate: I mean affirmatively not negatively, for no man doth teach or recessitate what he doth deny. This I have briefly done in the definition of a Protestant Church. I pray you give me a definition of the Roman Church. Whereas you say that all our Ministers are sworn to the 39 Articles, you are deceived, it is not so. FINIS. A DIALOGUE CONCERNING THIS QUESTION, Where was your Church before Luther and Caluin. Giving good directions how to discover FISHER'S folly. By W. C. Printed M.DC.XXIII. Mr. W. C. his Dialogue concerning this question, Where was your Church before Luther? A Dialogue between E and D. E. ANswer this question, Where was your Church before Luther? D. Even where our doctrine was, sometime in one country, sometime in another, as it pleased God in his wise dispensation, who caries the light of his Gospel, as he doth the Sun through the world, to illuminate nations at several times therewith, according to his will. E. That is a fair general; but will you tell us, who were these? what country people? what Doctors? who taught as ye teach? D. Look the Churches of Asia, Africa and of Europe, consider them as they were before the mystery of iniquity ca●e to the height, and you shall see that they all had the same doctrine a●d form of a Church that we have in all substantial points pertaining to Religion. E. But you are not able to name one before Luther, teaching in all things as he did. D. This is a piece of Sophistry, whereby your deceivers blind the ignorant. E How so? should not the teachers of the truth agree in all things, in one harmony? D. I grant they should, and thanks be to God they do also in all substantial things which are the Articles of our faith. The Buckler of Fa●●●, published in French by M. Peter du Moulin, translated into English, & twice printed, Anno 1624. is a most excellent book for these present times, concerning Luther, etc. let Luther answer it at his best le●sure, or Sweet, or Anthony 〈◊〉, of any jesuit or Mass-priest whosoever. But is this a good reason, because some Doctors in some opinions differ, whereof men may be ignorant and saved nevertheless, that therefore these Doctors teach no truth, and their Churches are no true Churches? E. That seems to be hard indeed. D. You have reason for you so to think. For in one age Victor with the Church in the West was in a different opinion from Polycrates and the Churches of the East; and Jerome had his own discordance with Augustine; and the first ●athers of the primitive Church were Chiliasts: shall it thereupon follow, that because in this point they taught not in all things as we do, that therefore they were not a Church? E. It is no reason. D. Cyprian in the point of rebaptising taught not as Cornelius: what of that? will it follow that he was not a faithful Pastor, or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church? E. It follows not indeed. D. Why then do you urge me to give you one before Luther or Calvin, who in all points taught as we teach? The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent, are men subject to infirmities; for no man upon earth hath his understanding perfect, whereof it comes to pass, that in some things one of them differs from another: but as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes salvation, sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian, Ambrose, Augustine, Luther and Calvin, have all delivered one doctrine and did teach the way of God truly. E. Then you think the Fathers of the Primitive Church were of your Religion. D. I think so indeed, and hope to die in the same faith wherein they lived and died. E. It would be thought strange to hear that in Italy, that the Doctors of the Primitive Church were of the Protestants Religion. D. No marvel though it be strange there where truth is a stranger: but this answer was given you and them both, by a worthy Doctor of our Church, The light of Cambridge, M. Doctor whitaker's, in Camplanum. M. Doctor whitaker's, and yet we stand to it: Patros in maximis sunt nostri, in multis narij, in minimis vestri: Such Fathers (saith Doctor whitaker's) as have written before us and you both, in greatest things are ours, in many things are doubtful, in smallest things they are yours. E. Well, I will remember that, God willing: but in the days of Papistry, wherewith you say the world was blinded, where was your Church? D. Answer me but another question, and it shall resolve you. E. What is that? D. Your Doctors say, that when Antichrist shall come, the Church shall fly to the Desert, that is, as themselves expound it. The Rhemists upon Reuel. 11. The Church shall be without public state of regiment, and open free exercise of holy functions; neither shall it be unknown to the faithful which follow it, as this day may be seen the like by the Church of Roman Catholics in many parts of England. E. What doth that help you? D. Very much. That which they themselves say will be done, we say is done: Antichrist hath already chased the Church to the wilderness, and so oppressed it, that for a time it had no public state of regiment, nor open free exercise of holy functions, yet was it not unknown to the faithful that followed it, nor to the enemies that persecuted it, as this day may be seen by the Church of Christian Catholics in many parts of France. E. Will ye make that clear, and I think you have won much. D. What greater clearness can you crave? If this answer be good to clear the Pope's Church when they say it will be obscured by Antichrist, and yet be, is it not as good to justify our Church, when we say, it hath been obscured by Antichrist, and yet was? E. The answer is good enough; only if you can, I would have you qualify it more particularly. D. There is not one age since the days of Christ unto this day, wherein I cannot point forth men preaching and professing as we do: but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry, I will let you see it is a needless question for the Pope's Church to demand of us, where our Church then was? for they found us always in their teeth before ever Luther or Caluin were borne. E. Make that good. D. See Reinerus upon the Apoc. Reinerus a popish Inquisitor, who lived more than three hundred years ago, speaking of the poor men of Lions, and calling them in contempt Valdenses, Leonistae, saith, they were more pernicious to the Church of Rome then all other sects, 3. Reasons why the Waldenses much vexed the Rom. Church. for three causes. First, because it hath been of longer continuance: for some say, this sect hath endured since the Apostles times. The second cause is, because it is more general: for there is almost no Land in the which this Sect doth not creep. The third cause, for that all other Sects do bring an horror with the heinousness of their blasphemies against God, but this Sect of Leonists hath a great show of godliness, because they live justly before men, and believe all things well concerning God, and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed, only they blaspheme and hate the Church of Rome. Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for us, which may serve to stop the mouths of all our enemies from demanding of us any more, Where was your Church before Luther? E. 1. but he calls them a Sect, and says, they blasphemed the Church. D. So the Priests of the jews called the Church of Christians a Sect of Nazarites, Acts 24.5. what is that to the matter? yet he grants they are such a Sect, as first had been from the beginning; secondly, had been in all countries'; and thirdly was honest in life and sound in faith, save only that they held the Church of Rome to be the Whore of Babel. And that yet this prejudice which you have conceived of our Church may be further removed out of your mind, I pray you consider this: think you not that with good reason we may affirm, that we are in communion with them who have taught the same doctrine that we teach? If our doctrine was in former ages, you will not deny that our Church was then also. E. That cannot be denied. D. Well then, if you please, name me any controversy of religion, The Ancient Fathers. concerning any article of faith between us and the Papists this day, and you shall see that the ancient Fathers take our part in it. E. That is strange; for they repose their chiefest strength and trust in the ancient Fathers. D. Brag what they will, it is true, I say, they may well boast in the dross of Fathers, and deck their errors with it, but we shall bring you their finest gold. Name you the controversy, and you shall try that which I say to be a truth. E. There are so many controversies among you, that I know not which of them to name first. D. Then will it please you to take a view of those which I have gathered for my own private use. E. With a very good will: let me see what they are. D. They are noted & set down in four special books of the Protestants, and I have observed and collected them for my own comfort and confirmation in the faith: for as first of all I learned the way of salvation in the Scriptures, so finding that the Doctors of the primitive Church (produced in these four special books: 1. Doctor White his Way to the true Church: 2. Illyricus his Catalogus testim. veritatis, augmented twice by Goularitus: 3. Doctor Reinolds his five conclusions or Theses the fift, quinta Conclus. quinta Thes. in English, but more large in Latin: 4. Polanus his Symphonia Catholica; special books, writ by four Protestant Preachers) expounded the Scriptures conformable to the doctrine of our teachers, I was greatly therein confirmed: for these are the two great props of our faith, which ●inentius gives us against all heresies, Cap. 2. E. You have reason for you: for if your doctrine be so warranted, Two main props & proofs of religion. both by divine authority of God in his word, and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church, they are to be judged most unworthy that make contradiction to you. D. These points are so fully performed (as I have said) in three special books by three worthy Protestant Divines, and so methodically set down, that I think my showing to you of these three books, and your reading of them will most fully content and satisfy you; I say again, by Gods help▪ they will give you most full satisfaction, as also to all others who with indifferency will vouchsafe to read them. F. I pray you who be those three Divines who have writ those three books, and which be the books. D. Doctor White is the first, and the book is, his Way to the true Church. E. Which is the second? D. Fla●cus Illyricus his Catalogus testium veritatis, augmented twice by Simon Goulartius, set out by him the second time in one volume in a large Folio. E. Which is the third? D. Doctor Reinolds his six Conclusions in English, placed at the end of his Conference with heart: but it is his fift Conclusion which I mean for this purpose, quinta Conclus. or his six Theses in Latin. of his last augmented Edition, and thereof I mean his fift Thes. quinta Thes. more full than the English. E. And what have these four Divines performed in those four books, to give comfort, content and satisfaction on this very point we have now in hand, viz. Where your Church, doctrine, teachers were before Luther? for I assure you, this is the main matter, which troubleth many at this present: for Campian was not so busy in Queen Elizabeth's days with his Audito nomine Ecclesiae, hostis expalluit; but Fisher, Sweet, Clarke and other jesuites are as busy now in King james his days, even at this present, with their Where was your Church before Luther? Where your Preachers? where your professors? where your doctrine? let us hear their names; Names, names, names, names, cries the Fisher catched in his own Net. D. What have they performed? enough at the full (in the mercy of God) to satisfy you and all other indifferent Readers, that without prejudice look into those their labours. E. How might I come by those books? may I meet with them in Paul's Churchyard for I would very gladly buy them. D. You may most easily: but stay, let me a little call back that word, for they are so fast bought up, that I doubt they are almost out of print, for (and that worthily) they are exceedingly in request. E. So much the more the Printers are too blame, that they give not a second impression to them. D. A second impression, say you; why Doctor Whites Way to the true Church hath been printed four several times, now within a few years, and notwithstanding are almost all sold up, but I hear a fifth impression is now in hand. Polanus his Symphonia, Illyricus and Doctor Reinolds, their books (before named) have been diverse times imprinted also; so that you need not blame the Printers, who are careful to make new impressions, and new supplies of books so worthy, and so much in request, and so greatly sought after. E. This should argue, that their books (by God's blessing) are very powerful, and win many to the truth, they vent so exceedingly fast. D. O yes, God be thanked, preaching and writing succeed happily with a blessed success: doubt you not but at this day for one Papist, England doth enjoy xx. xl. yea rather an hundred Protestants. Masses and stageplayss grow odious. E. You make me long for these four books, I would gladly be in hand with them. D. Why Sir, seeing your longing is so great, I have them at hand for you, use them so long as you please: now I fetch them out of my Study. E. Are these they, Sir, I pray you. D. Yes indeed, these are the very books. E. Now I pray you Sir, before that we open them, tell me in brief what they say and perform in these matters. D. That, good Sir, I will most willingly perform. E. And I most willingly listen and give attentive care unto you. D. God direct with his holy Spirit, and give a blessing in his Son Christ jesus. These four books following do fully furnish any Scholar to make answer to all jesuits, Masspriests, Fisher, Clarke, Sweet, etc. to that question, Where was your Religion before the days of Luther? 1. Doctor White (to begin first with him) in his book entitled The Way to the true Church, Digression 52. showeth, that the present Religion of the Roman Church was observed and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased; naming withal the persons that made resistance, and the points wherein, and the time when, from fifty years to fifty, throughout all ages since Christ, compendiously observed out of history, for the satisfying of their error, that so much conceit the antiquity of Papistry, and think it was never controlled till Luther's time. And Digression 48 Sect. 50. the said Doctor White setteth down a brief and direct answer to the Papists, when they say, we cannot assign a visible company professing the same faith in every point that we do, ever since Christ till now, without interruption. 2. Flacius Illyricus (the second I named) in his book entitled Catalogus testim veritatis, A Catalogue of the witnesses of the truth, augmented twice by Simon Goulartius, and by him the second time set out in one volume, in a large Folio, showeth, that the present religion of the Roman Church wa● observed and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased; naming withal the persons that made the resistance, and the points wherein, and the time when, from an hundred years to an hundred, throughout all ages since Christ, compendiously observed out of history, for the satisfying of their error, that so much conceit the antiquity of Papistry, and think it was never controlled till Luther's time. 3. The third is Doctor Reinolds (that light of Oxford) in his fift Conclusion, quinta Conclus. in English, joined to the end of his Conference with heart; but far more ●●lly in his fift Latin Thesis, quinta Thes. of the last augmented Edition, showeth that the present Church of Rome is neither the holy Catholic Church, nor a sound member of the Catholic Church; that the present Religion of the Roman Church was observed and resisted in all ages; bringeth in abundantly proofs and testimonies out of the ancient Fathers, Counsels and records, good Authors, Schoolmen, the Papists own writings, etc. in all the controverted points betwixt the Protestants and Papists. 4. The fourth is Amandus Polanus his Symphonia Catholica, though named the last, yet as admirable as the rest, yea in one thing more admirable, viz. in bringing in the ancient Fathers in all the controverted points betwixt Protestants and Papists in all ages most fully. E. You come to the point indeed, and say more than ever I heard; and I hope these your four books will make all this good that you have named. D. They will indeed most plentifully: take them away with you, and keep them even so long as you please. E. I thank you most hearty, good Sir; you bring me to a feast indeed what variety of dainty dishes have you set before me? D. God in Christ jesus bless them unto you. An Advertisement to the Reader concerning Polanus his Symphonia Catholica, and Mr. Robert Cook his book concerning counterfeit Fathers. Polanus his Symphonia Catholica is written in common-place manner, out of the ancient Fathers and other good Authors, from the days of Christ and his Apostles to the times of Luther, handling the principal controverted points methodically betwixt the Protestants and the Papists, written purposely to satisfy that demand of Papists, Where was the Protestants religion before the times of Luther? Oh that some good religious Scholar or other would translate it into English, for the common profit of the Church of England, against the insulting brags of Fisher and other Papists, who say, we had no religion before Luther's times, that he hatched it, etc. I wish likewise that M. Robert Cook his Latin Treatise concerning counterfeit Fathers was translated into English, for the good of those who understand not Latin; Papists alleging counterfeit Fathers so often. FINIS.