A true mirROVR OR glaze wherein we may behold the woeful state of this our Realm of England, set forth in a Dialogue or communication between Eusebius and Theophilus. Matthew. 12. ☞ Omne regnum in se divisum desolabitur. ☞ Imprinted. Anno. Domi. M. D.L.VI. A Dialogue OR communication between Eusebius, and Theophilus. EVsebius, what Theophilus God save you, how is your there? Theophilus. Even better than I am worthy brother Eusebius. I thank you for that you would inquire. E. What man why say you so? T. Because I am evil of myself and yet my Lord rewardeth me with good things. E. Lo now cometh to my remembrance things that I have been oftentimes desirous to talk with you therein. But be ye now at leisure, or whether be ye going? T. Surely into the fields for to take the air. E. Never in better season, I will go with you every foot: peradventure ye may put me from doubts, wherein my head hath been often troubled, and of a long time I have determined to talk with you therein. T. What things are they ye mean? E. I will tell you. Ye know well there hath been great dissension as well among the learned, as other, about Religion a great while. The one Is called the old mumsimus, the other the new sumpsimus the one a Catholic, the other a protestant, and the one a papist, the other an heretic, and such like, which ought not to be me thinketh among Christians specially being of one nation and country, who should love together as brethren, now for that our friendship hath been of long continuance and your honesty to me so well known, doubtless brother Theo. I am sorry that you should be noted to be of any evil opinion, and not such as I mought without danger frequent and use your company for assuredly there is no man otherwise that I desire more to be conversant withal then with you. And now the danger is such, not only towards God, but also to the superiors, Ring, Queen and magistrates that of force I am constrained more oftener to leave your company, then gladly I would, If I mought safely use the same. And this is my grief the which If I could I would surely remove. And If I were able, I would persuade you to conformyte with us in religion In such wise as we mought during our lives continue together our friendship unviolated. T. Your loving kindness and friendship towards me (brother Eusebius) I thankfully embrace. And your approved honesty moveth me to seek all means with you likewise to continue this our wont friendship and familiarity. But there is a God hath created us, unto whom we own a duty, which must be done, notwithstanding all friendship or obedience unto man, and whereas you fear the danger towards God, for mine opinion. If it pleased God I would there were no more danger otherwise, and then would not I doubt the continuance of our friendship. For as touching mine opinion in religion, I am right well assured that it is grounded upon the infallible verity of gods most sacred word or holy scriptures. From the which If I should start back for the love of friendship or for fear of men it were as much as to deny the lord my god, which ye know no good man will do. E. Yet but hear me Theophi. We do not disallow holy scriptures neither do we deny the lord but confess both. But we do sift out errors, which light persons have brought in by misunderstanding the holy Scriptures, and so bring in again the true light of the same. T. In deed so you say but how do you prove it I would feign here? E. Nay alas brother Theophilus ye know I am not so far learned as to dispute the matter. T. surely you are as well able to make an argument as I am able to answer to the same. For I am no school man, but for the satisfying of every man's conscience and for discharge of mine own, I always seek understanding, lest by my to much simpleness or rather negligence, I mought be deceived, when I think myself most sure. E. In that I cannot discommend you, but than ye know they have been disputed withal at full, so largely as they could wish or desire, but nothing can prevail. T. I pray you where was that disputations ye speak of? E. Forsooth they were had in the convocation house, howbeit for that they made their boast that those men were but of the youngest sort, and yet they did so well there, how much better was it supposed the ancient learned should do? Upon this report I suppose they provided the disputations in oxford where the beast learned of your side were appointed and disputed: and yet god knoweth they were convicted and over come: for they were able In manner to make no repugnance. T. But I pray you brother Euse. were you there at the hearing of this disputations In Oxford? E. No verily that I was not. T. but have you seen the copy of the same that was drawn out by their notaries and given to the sensors for witnessing of the troth herein? E. Neither that have I seen In deed, but being at supper among my friends on a time I heard them talk of it In such wise as I told you before. T. But I pray you tell me one thing, was not the relation made by a priest? E. Yes doubtless that it was, and it was in a priests house, I may say to you, a canon, one that may dispend four hundredth mark by the year but what then? they said it was true. T. in deed if they said so, it must needs be true, for they cannot lie, but yet this much I will say unto you brother Euse. I was there present at the doing of this gear, and heard all for the most part with mine ears: the which thing would god you and all honest men had heard and I dare say you would have lamented the state of those iii men which were appointed to answer for their lives, although otherwise ye mislike their judgement in religion. And yet I cannot tell what God should have wrought In you neither by hearing thereof: for like as I did know divers more confirmed in the faith they had before received, so heard I of none that by the disputation were with drawn from the same: alas good men they could be suffered to do no otherwise, but as the master will suffer his servant or scholar to speak what he list to hear, & while he will hear him and no more. E. What say you man? It was a free disputation, and they spoke and did what they would, as touching the order of disputation: this went the report. T. Well what soever the report was I will tell you some part of the order thereof, wherein I will not lie unto you one word: These doctors that came from london & Cambrige, of which doctor Weston was chief, for that he was prolocutor of the convocation house, these men I say came to oxford this the friday, and the saturday following were the iii prisoners called forth before them and appointed to dispute the monday, tuesday, and weddensdaye following, and before that I dare say they knew of no disputation, and assoon as the disputation was appointed, Immediately were they separated and could not confer nor talk together: their own books that they had laboured, and there commun places that they had gathered, was all taken from them when they came first to prison, and when they should come forth to dispute they were brought with bills and glaives, as if they should have gone to hanging: and there must one of them alone answer some times vi speaking to him at one time, and ever would they cry upon him to cut short, for the time was spent. And when as it came to master Rydleys' torn, he had provided his supposition, thinking to have read it, but they would not suffer him. And yet he alleged for himself the order of the schools, and that all that little time he had bestowed in devising the same, wherein he minded to have declared the substance of his assertion of his faith and believe touching that matter then in question, but he could not be suffered in any wise, and sundry times in his talk they would take him at advantage, and when he would open his meaning his tale could not be heard of the audience, but yet there were that noted his words. Now I pray you what indifferency is this? a man without study, without books, without conference with other, and almost without hearing shall dispute for his life? And they so many clapping, at one time against one poor man, alas it was a grief. And yet for all this I warrant you they be not hasty in putting forth the disputations in print, as much as they brag I dare say they will never put them forth. E. But is this true that ye have now said in this matter? E. Yea as true as god liveth. And I dare say If ye talk with the doctors themselves that disputed against them they can deny none of all this that I have said: well they may colour it with some other thing, but assuredly they cannot alter it, it is so openly known. E. Well brother Theophilus consider that when men be in authority, and have the governance In their hand, some what they will do. And consider also that in king Edward's time your doctors dealt in like case with our learned men, And therefore blame them not though they now show a little of the same courtesy again. T. Nay then mark what I will say unto you brother Eusebius. And tell me whether the case be like. In king Edward's time there was appointed a disputation wherein were iii of your learned against one of ours they had leisure as much as they would axe, they were not taken from their books, neither put in prison, they mought confer with whom they would, and go whether they would, they were not so much as checkte for defending their opinion. Another time also I do remember well, that before King Edward died, I was present at the disputation In oxford, where one Grene way (a bachelor of divinity and the vice president of Corporis Christi College) answered and his question was, whether Christ's natural body mought be in more places than one. there was one of the opponentes that openly professed himself to be of a contrary mind, and so disputed, and yet I never knew so much as one evil word spoken to him. Note now the tyranny that is used of the one side which christ never taught. And mark there great gentleness again of the other side. And this were enough almost to persuade an honest heart. E. Surely brother. Theophi. I would Charity mought rule this matter, for I do verily believe that if with love and petition they did gently comen together of these matters they should much rather agree then by such proud disputations or rather scolding and brawling one with another. For to what purpose serveth this cankored malice but the one to seek the others destruction. And while we go about mischief to each other, there be that will destroy us both: and then we have spun a fair thread. T. In deed your gathering standeth with good reason, and not without good authority of the holy Scriptures. For this sayeth the Lord jesus: Every kingdom within itself devydede shallbe destroyed, Math. 12 Luke. 11. Gala. 5. and every house divided with in itself, shall not stand. And Saint Paul sayeth also if ye bite one another, take heed lest ye be consumed one of an other. E. I pray you brother The. In what place is it the Christ saith Every kingdom divided within itself shall be destroyed. E. In the .12. Chapter of Mathes gospel and in the .11. of Luke likewise. E. Now surely I am afraid lest those words are to true, and lest we shall have to much experience of the same. T. Well brother Euse. You need not care, for you are a good catholic man, and therefore no harm can happen to you, for the game goeth on your side. As for me ye know I am half suspected and more. And therefore I look when I shallbe called forth coramnobis and so to the fire, a cruel death I tell you. E. Will ye believe me brother Theophi. As god help me I am none of those that desireth the hurt of my neighbour, and I tell you truth, I like this religion the worse for there cruelty. For undoubtedly If the matter were in my hand there should none be put to death except he would obstinately rebel by commotions, or otherwise molest a whole comen wealth, as for his conscience let him discharge that between God and himself, he should choose for me, for any trouble I would work him, for me thinks it stands not with Charity. 1. Cor. 1●. T. I mistrust you not brother Euse. I know you to well and like you the better. And in deed saint Paul saith: If I had faith that, I could move mountains out of there places, If I had not love, I am nothing. And christ himself saith also: john. 14 by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye love one another, the which love springeth from a faith unfeigned in the promise of god, and causeth good works to proceed, as the fruits come of the buddings of the tree. E. What be those good works ye mean? T. Marry calling upon the name of the living god, by diligent, fervent, and continual prayer, in watching the devil, that neither by the lust of this flesh neither yet by ambition, and covetousness, of this wicked world, or by any other means, he should overcome us, and subdue us unto sin. And therefore as we feel ourselves prone, and apt to evil, so still to mortify these members of ours, by fasting, and prayer with such like Godly exercises, to visete and comfort our needy neighbours and so forth. E. But I pray you now, do you speak as you think, or else jest ye with me to see what I will say? T. Nay, I speak it with my heart, as truly as God liveth. E. Then have I heard fovell lies among them that would be accounted honest and well learned. But seeing we have entered so far in the matter I pray you certify me of the truth in this point, whether it be so or no: that I be not deceived therein, for the satisfying of my conscience and for quieting the same, for as for me although I be not of the new learning, yet am I not so addicted to the old, but that I would be glad to here and reason the matter, to th'end I promise you I mought help to bring love amongs ourselves. T. A godly purpose I assure you, but what are those lies than ye heard of late, I pray you let us hear them. E. Nay soft I said not precisely they were lies, but if that be true, which you say, then are they lies in deed, but say on I pray you, what was that true tale then: E. Sir this it was told me, that you of this new learning, did boast yourselves much of faith and that only faith did justify: but good works ye cared not for, neither regarded at all, neither prayer nor fasting nor alms deed will ye allow, god's service ye despise and the ministers thereof with a thousand like, I cannot well remember all now. T I durst lay a wager before hand that this also was a priests tale. E. Now surely it was so in deed, what a Gods name how are you so well acquainted with priests tales? T. Yes I know them well and their master also but brother Eusebius this is no strange thing, for there is no sermon almost in these days but these tales be in the pulpit as thick as hops and many lies more to: the which when I hear it maketh my heart mourn to see their spite, that they have no other way to work their anger upon us but with open lies in an open audience and yet the shame would redound to themselves, if there were any shame in them. For the most part of men do know most certainly that they do lie. If they were of god as they pretend, or if they meant the preservation of a common wealth and safeguard of their country, they would use another way of persuasion, they would have charity before their eyes, they would consider the nature of every man by themselves and do as they would be done unto: and I pray you who can suffer himself to be complained of to a whole country and to hear false witness brought against him, and by this means brought to love: no no, this is not to win their brethren, but ever to provoke mischief, and to set men by the ears. God be merciful unto us the pulpit was ordained to speak truth, to preach peace, and to bring unity among the brethren. And now they have made it a place to spread lies, to sow discord, and to set men's hearts on fire with envy and malice. I am right well assured that if men would deny it, that the stones of the street would witness that the preachers in King Edward's time cried out upon the sins of men, and threatened the most extreme damnation, if they repented not and turned not to the Lord in amendment of life, and showed them also a forehand what would come of our wicked living, which things are come to pass, and therefore did continually exhort them to repentance with the ninivites, and to call upon the name of the living god in fasting and sackcloth mourning and weeping for the day of god's wrath was at hand, as we have right well felt and are like to feel more yet. This was not one man's preaching alone, but all for the most part, and this (I say) If men will deny the stones of the street will witness the same. And yet all this not withstanding come they into the pulpits and say: these new fellows would have no good works, neither fasting, nor prayer, but all liberty, liberty, faith, faith, and nothing else Oh God what Christian heart doth not even break with sorrow, to see such slanderers maintained in a pulpit: But god is a righteous lord and for that we would not be warned in time, being so much called upon, he hath justly placed us, with patience therefore we must bear the cross till it please him to take it of again, there is no remedy, for if we once open our mouths to reason the matter with them in this case, we must say the crow is white or else we go to the fire without redemption, this is a miserable case. E. Ye make me astonied Theophilus. For how may it be that they should use the matter so cruelly, if there were not some great cause? T. I will tell you Eusebius, I have heard the preachers in King Edward's time a number of them. And have red their works, and if ever I found one sentence that I can remember, that did discourage any man, & not rather spur forth every man to the doing of those good works above rehearsed, let god forsake me, & show me no more his favour & grace. For although we do attribute our justification to only faith, and that by faith only we be justified, we mean not a dead faith, without works, but a living faith, even the same faith saint Paul speaketh of to the Galathians, Gala. 5. which by love is mighty in operation as the tree therefore is known to be living by his budding & bearing of fruit: so is the justifying faith known by charity, out of which charity, springeth these good works above said which are the very fruits thereof. But your catholic father's show but little or no charity, and therefore it should seem they have but little or no faith. Eusebius your reason is somewhat pithy, but yet I suppose there is somewhat else that moveth this great contraversy. T. In deed it is true, there is another thing that moveth the matter, and that is the devil the author & maintainer of contention and mischief, in submitting ourselves where unto we lose innocency, love, meekness, & all other virtues, and in stead thereof we find pride, stoutness, hatred and such like, as for covetousness it over floweth the whole world. Eusebius. But will ye give me leave (brother Theophilus) to say one thing unto you, although I know you to be such a man, for your honesty, as I would desire to lead my life withal for your faithful & true heart is known to them with whom you have to do, that which thing chiefly I have respect unto, and I do believe that god hath engrafted his grace in the man's heart, which dealeth justly with men, & liveth quietly among his familiars, specially when it is well known that he wisheth all things to be well. But yet (ye shall not be offended with me for that I will say) there were of your sort, which are called the new learning, many evil men. T. It was most true brother Eusebius and can not be denied. For there were in hell no verier devils than many of them were that professed the gospel, for otherwise there could have been no colour of these lies, and slanders that are now spread, as is said before. For it was judas that bare the pouche, & it was judas that betrayed his master: and many judasses in England under the pretence of religion rob both King and realm these judasses filled their own pouches, & made themselves rich & noble, & they care not who rule so long as they may get & enjoy their possessions. E. Well brother Theophilus here are no more but you & I, & I dare be bold herein to tell you my mind. For I know you understand in it as much as I, & more to, & I dare say you do with as great a grief behold it & sorrow it as any English heart will do. I hear say the king of Spain shall at last be crowned king of England, what say you to that: T Alas brother Eusebius what should I say to it: If god have determined, who may withstand: we must commit it to his good pleasure and will. E. But do you not think it a plague? T. Yes verily and an utter desolation of English blood. E. Oh lord what meaneth this? T. I will tell you brother Euse. The almighty god hath from the beginning written his will and law, not in tables of stone only, neither in books of paper and ink, but also in the hearts of men, as it is written: I write my laws in their hearts, and I will be their god and they shallbe my people. But lest any man should dream of these laws and feign other in their stead they were written in tabels of stone, and after in books of paper and ink, so that to this day they are divided and known from men's laws. And for our better instruction herein the only begotten son of God our Lord jesus christ hath according to the fathers promise stablished and confirmed a new testament, wherein he hath opened plainly the mysteries of Moses' law and the Prophets, not to break them, as the false Phariseis falsely reported of him, but to fulfil them in executing this his new testament. The which sound doctrine of health, the world always spurned at, as they do yet to this day. And although it were for a time suffered here in England by the providence of god, and most earnestly preached and published, yet was there that spurned at it, and many abused it for there liberty for covetous lucre and such like, many warnings we had for both parties to amend, but it would not be, wherefore seeing we would not receive him but despise him still as the jews did, we shall likewise be destroyed as they were I see no other remedy. E. God be merciful unto us, but yet I marvel that our nobility suffereth it. T Why man ye must understand that your catholics now bear the rule, your prelate's of the Church have all the doings of these matters, and ye know they having none inheritance but for their lives, being without wife and children, rather than they would be brought down again, as they were in king Edward's days they had rather the Turk had the rule and government thereof. E. I may say to you Theophilus they are shroudly suspected in this matter and I fear me not without good cause. But yet I marvel of the councillors, who being put in trust with the government and may let the proceeding hereof, what should move them to consent thereunto: T. As I may think myself assured of you as you of me, and may as boldly speak also my mind to you, as you to me, and although faithful friendship be utterly banished this Realm, so that one brother all most cannot trust another, yet friendship lurketh in corners secretly. And I think myself safe with you brother Eusebius. Your faithfulness is to me so well know. I will therefore show you what I conjecture to be the cause of their agreement, a lamentable case it is, and with great so row and grief, must I tell you herein my mind. They be men that be lovers of themselves, yet they are so blinded with this self love, that they neither can foresee the miserable state of their country, neither yet their own destruction, they dream as Pope julius did, who (as the fabel telleth) commanded Saint Peter to open heaven gates, dreaming himself to be Pope still. These men dream that the King of Spain will make them alway of his chief counsel but. etc. They have been of King Harry the eights council, brought up of mean men the most part. Whereby they should be accounted noble, I know not. For they excel not in learning and knowledge, they have showed no great proofs of arms, their love to a common wealth is now declared. But they be so infected with ambition, that look what pleaseth the affection of the Prince pleaseth also them. For in King Henry's days they were sworn to abolish the pope's supremacy with his usurped power, yea and they prosecuted the matter earnestly as it appeared right well, for many lost their lives for the same. When King Henry was dead, King Edward his son by the means of his uncle then Lord protector subverted all the Pope's religion, put down mass and altogether, wherewithal they were well contented, and set forward the matter without any scruple of conscience, I warrant you. And many goodly laws they let make, as well for the maintenance of that religion, as also for the preservation of a comen wealth, and before King Edward was fully dead, they had concluded also with the Duke of Northumberlande, under pretence of the stablishing of that religion, and other goodly considerations as it were to make him King, contrary to all right, and contrary to all the statutes of parliament and so would have disherited the Queen that now is, against her father's will, against their own laws, against all their oaths and promise, and without any just cause, at that time. And all this notwithstanding, when they saw how the game would go: they were contented to serve the queens will, and now have they sworn back again to the holy father I hear say: now again whereas the Queen goeth about not only to break her father's will and all such laws & statutes as were made for the preservation and safeguard of this realm, but is also determined of a self will to bring England into the subjection of a foreign Prince, they have not only consented and agreed, but are also chief doers and procurers thereof, for god hath blinded their eyes, and their understanding, so that they cannot see nor perceive, their own destruction, and yet every child seeth and every good heart mourneth at it full heavily. E. Now surely Theophilus you have spoken as true as the gospel, for if he be once established King, he may without contradiction furnish all the forts in England with his own men, for I would not think him wise to trust strangers so much as his own country men: when he hath therefore brought the to pass he may at all times bring an army either out of flanders or spain, the ships being also at his commandment, and thorough England may he go at his will and pleasure, who will say him nay: Alas miserable case. T. Nay nay Eusebius he shall need none army to bring this matter to pass, for if the Queen live seven years to an end, he will so use the matter that England shallbe easy enough to rule, for mark ye now how fast the gentle men go to the tower, yea and some to hanging also. And ye see the gentlemen for the most part be of this new learning, and therefore ye know under pretence of religion there willbe matters Enough to rid the most part of the nobility of England, and all this shall we be made to do within ourselves, we shallbe inveigled thus to do one against another by trains and baits to seek one another's destruction, whereunto many are very priest, and all to do the Queen a pleasure. Mark how this gear cometh to pass, for the Spaniard hath nothing to do in all this (as we suppose) but rather getteth pardons, and showeth great favour to english men, but ye may be sure they have debated this matter in their heads, & in all this they make the Queen serve their turn, and her own fancy also. Now when all these heretic gentlemen be dispatched (which willbe the greatest part of the nobility of England) then shall there be other inventions had for the rest, which shallbe easy enough, for they shallbe few. And think you he will then trust English men for the government of his kingdom when he hath so weakened it, and may take the matter in hand? No for then peradventure the poor English men may take a joy in their heads when they once begin to feal the smart, and an english Lord willbe deinte at that time, and they will begin to love each other, when they see how the game will go, and so show themselves in their old likeness, and so make a foul work. But I warrant you these men which can so compass the matter to bring it so far forth, will not be over seen in this, of that ye may be sure. And therefore of go their heads also, let them point upon it, and thus farewell the glory of England for ever and a day. E. O Lord whether there be no remedy for England that it mought be preserved from this misery? T. surely there is but one and that is a general repentance with the Ninivites fasting and praying, most earenestly calling upon the true living god to have mercy upon us, for his son Christ's sake, and so leave envying and hating each other, and seek love together as it becometh brethren: this way and none other can I see to escape. E. Well god be merciful unto us what should I say, I can not tell? T. Your holy Prelates Eusebius have preached a great while against our poor ministers, and have laid to their charge that they have been great hinderers of a common wealth, and have marred altogether by there doctrine, in pulling down Abbeys and Colleges, with such like, wherein although they spoke against their superstition, and idle life yet was it not redressed by their advise, & therefore did they continually preach against the covetous handling thereof, and the evil bestowing of such treasure, ye they feared not to tell them to their faces of there faults, so openly and plainly, as all England can right well witness the same. And yet for all that do not your Prelates cease to cast them in the teeth, as though they mought have ruled the roast, behold the fruits of their doctrine say they, for all was covetousness, & I can not tell what, but if ye note well the fruit of their doctrine, ye shall perceive that they have brought another manner of thing to pass, the is the destruction of us all, the which thing undoubtedly must needs come to pass, if god do not wonderfully work for our preservation, contrary to all men's expectation, & contrary also to our deserving, & that shortly, for it is at hand. E. Welcome by the grace of god. For every kingdom divided within itself shallbe destroyed I have learned that lesson, and I shall not forget it as long as I live: but yet I am not fully satisfied of that matter whereof I intended most to reason with you, but now the evening draweth on, & peradventure I let you from your business. T. In deed mine hour is almost come wherein I promised to meet a friend of mine. But if it please you to point any time to morrow I will meet you here by God's grace. And we will have the matter debated at full. E. Sir I pray you heartily let it be to morrow after dinner. T. With a good will, far ye well E. and I pray god give you his holy spirit to order & rule your goings, that whatsoever ye go about, it may be to the honour & glory of his name, & to the profit of this comen wealth E. I thank you T. with all my heart, & I pray god it may so come to pass. Amen. ¶ The second DIALOGUE OR communication between Eusebius and Theophilus. EVsebius, well met brother Theophilus, you have made good shift, I thought to have been hear before you, you went to dinner betime I perceive. T. Even as I do commonly, when I have no business, between nine & ten, me thinks it is a good hour: for by that means I save a breakfast, which for such idlers as I am, is most fittest. E. In deed to say truth it were enough, for the most part of men, if they could be so contented. T. Yea brother Eusebius, and a great deal of those two meals in one day, would be better spent also. I mean of such, as use much banquesting and costly fare daily in their houses, with such superfluity, as surely is in mine opinion to much, and none use it more, than your Prelates of the Church: for they suppose themselves to fast sufficiently, if they abstain from flesh fridays and saturdays, and such like days as they have appointed: they think it no matter to banquet other days, and so are all the rest of your religion persuaded. And yet alas considering the miserable state we stand in it were mere to mourn, weep, fast, and pray: I mean not fridays only but all the days of the weak, to leave our belly cheer and to take an other way, then to banquet and play, setting cock in the hoop and care not what become of us. E. Ye have said well Theophilus I promise you, but yet give me leave to say again your sort of the other side despised so much our superstitious fast, that they fasted not at all, and therefore our men were the better in this case I am sure. T. I must needs grant Eusebius that a great number were at that point, and I must confess also that liberty had caused many men to wax wild, the which would have been tamed, by good laws right well, and were in manner provided. If Satan had not envied the profit thereof. But yet they say there can be never a better, whereas there is never a good, but as touching diet, doubtless I think there were some good men of both sides, I mean such men as with good moderation used gods creatures for there necessity, and not for their wanton lust. And so likewise in other outward observances, I suppose there be of both sides, that mean well, and wish well unto all men, and I do not think the contrary but if there were charity in our hearts, & we could find in our hearts to love one another, we should agree and prosper well enough, but Satan hath sowed the seed of discord among us, and we cannot love each other, but with most spite that may be, we persecute one another to destruction, and this willbe our own confusion. E. Yea Theophilus that is in deed a lamentable thing and the greatest grief to me, that you being an honest man, and I am I hope not of the worst sort of men, for my hearty desire is that all mought be well, this therefore grieveth me that we should be of divers opinions, and not of one mind specially in religion, and therefore did I covet to talk with you to th'end I mought if I could bring you to the same mind I am myself, and to say the truth I understand not so great controversy, but as you said with charity and friendly debating the matter we shall agree, and so would I wish all men to do, for I like not this cruelty assuredly, and therefore let me understand wherein we vary, we believe both all the Articles of the Christian faith, what causeth the controversy therefore? T. I will tell you Eusebius, the name of the catholic church, the holy church, the universal church, that marreth altogether. Euse. What man say not so, god forbid, but christ should have a church hear in earth. T. lo sir how soon ye misunderstand me. I remember now, that when master Latymer began first to preach, he taught the people to put their hole confidence in jesus christ, and that he only was our redemption and that there was no health in any other, no not in the blessed virgin Mary (sayeth he) I will not say but she was the most excellent woman upon earth, and savoured altogether of christ, as the bag wherein saffron hath been smelleth altogether of saffron, yet is not the bag the saffron itself, and so was not she the saviour self, though she bore him that was savour of the world to as many as believed in him, this with more Eloquent words did he set forth, as he was a man passing all other for that purpose, now what said the people of this? Forsooth that he had despised our lady, and had made her no better than a saffron bag I bring this tale by the way now, not so much for that you mistoke me in this, as to put you in remembrance of the great folly that is in many now a days, which when they hear, and peradventure understand not the matter, yet will they go and tell a whole story, and ever they will make the worst of it, this it is almost in every comen matter between neighbour and neighbour: there be such a sort of peace breakers, that delight in nothing so much as in telling of news and thus setteth one neighbour against another, all which increaseth our damage. E. But did I then misunderstand you Theophilus: Theo Yea brother Eusebius, but thanks be to god there can be no hurt in that. I speak all this, for no other thing but that you should note the great mischief that ensueth of those flatterers which go fleering to pick thank, and tell all they hear and more to, and that to work mischief, but this is no such matter: for although you took me that I said that Christ'S church or the holy catholic church marred altogether yet shall we debate the matter before we go, so that we shall understand one another, but these men seek no such thing that I spoke of before. E. But then I pray you, let me understand your meaning, for so I took it in deed as for such peace breakers as ye spoke of, I know and could declare how by: such of a sparkle was made a whole fire, enough to have set a whole country on a heat, but let that pass and go forth I pray you. T. Thus I said Eusebius, that the name of the holy catholic church, the universal church, or of Christ'S church, if ye will, that doth mar altogether. Eusebius. Why so? Theophilus, for this cause, that they which pretend to be Christ's church, are nothing less than Christ's in deed. Eusebius do ye think so? Theophilus yea and I will prove it so to, that you shall understand that yourself. Eusebius. say on I pray you, and I will give ear. Theophilus this know ye first then, that in the .24. Chapter of Saint Mathewes gospel, christ gave his disciples this warning and said: take heed, for many shall come in my name & say there are Christ's, be not deceived. etc. Now ye must understand that Christus is as much to say as anointed, so that many shall come in Christ'S name and say they be the anointed, mark well this warning and take good heed unto it. E. Well forth yet, I do understand you well this far. T. Very well then note this also, that as the Lord jesus gave this warning a little before his death, so did Saint Paul also a great while after christ had suffered, call the Bishops and elders of Ephesus together, and taking his leave, as one that should see them no more, gave them also this warning and said, take heed unto yourselves, and to the flock whereof ye have charge: for after my departing shall enter in among you grievous wolves, Act. ●0. which shall not spare the flock etc. Mark well now that Christ the Lord, and his Apostles likewise, how diligently and earnestly they gave us warning to take heed and beware of deceivers, and false Prophets, yea as it were almost their last words, which of all other, for the most part, are to be noted. and were it not reason we did take heed? Euse. Yes doubtless, we must and ought to take heed or else we shallbe deceived. But now say our Preachers that we ought to take heed of you, for of you were these words spoken. T. Nay then mark Saint Paul's words again, for he sayeth: after my departing. etc. And they shall be men that shall rise even of your own selves, sayeth he. john. 2. And Saint john in his Epistles sayeth also that even then in his time were many become Antichristes' already. And therefore the danger is not now only, but then and always to be taken heed unto. And it is the more danger in that they shall come in the name of christ, pretending his authority, and by that means the rather deceive the good simple man, behold therefore I have told you before, saith the Lord take heed. etc. Eusebius well yet I see not in all this, but we have as good cause to take heed of you as you of us and more to, for we are of greater authority, and better can we show for ourselves than you. T. That would I feign understand for therein lieth the whole matter. E. Well sir then hearken, first we are come to this point that between us is strife, whether we catholics be the true church of christ, and you protestants false Prophets, or else we the false harlots, and you the true men. The. Ye say truth, now for the proof of your authority, and that your catholics be the true church of christ, let us hear what you can say, Eu. Thus I say then, that our church hath been of a long continuance, from Christ'S time unto this day, and it hath been also universal thorough out all Christendom, not here or there but thorough out. And they have always one consent within themselves, now by these three points do the greatest learned men give a sure and certain knowledge of the true church unto all men, that is to wit by antiquity, universalite, and consent, and me thinks it sufficient, for it cannot deceive. Theophilus. Do you think this a sufficient proof: Eusebius. Yea doubtless, what can you say to the contrary? Theophilus. Marry I say that by this reason ye may prove the scribes and pharisees to be the true church, and christ to be a false Prophet, for they professed Moses law and observed it also better than your Catholics do now the gospel, and this law ye know was of great antiquity, and so were also many of their own traditions, that they had devised beside that law, so that they had antiquity sufficient, and universal they were throughout all juda and jerusalem, as we thorough Christendom: and their consentye may understand by the death of christ, whereunto they all consented and agreed. Eusebius. Yea but ye must understand that our church began first at christ, and so from thence had her antiquity, and from him it began to be universal, and in him the consent is effectual. Theophilus. Nay then ye make your matter wursie then before. Eusebius Do I so? Theophilus. Yea verily do ye, for tell me, what think you of the church of the Apostles, was not that a perfect true church? Eusebius. Yes verily, and so perfect, as I believe there hath not been a perfecter. Theophilus Very well, but I pray you, of what antiquity were their You grant that christ was the beginner of that church being here a living man on earth. And then how could they allege for themselves antiquity. And seeing they had not your marks, specially antiquity, it should appear by your reason not to be the true church, or else if ye grant that to be the true church, and your church and that church have not like probation, then must your church be a false church there is no remedy. Eusebius. Ye play the sophister with me now brother Theophilus T. Nay truly the reason is so plain that every ploughman may well understand the same. E. Well yet if they had not that antiquity, which we have, this maketh no discord among us, for we have antiquity by the reason we have continued so long in that doctrine, and ordinances, which they delivered unto us, & now therefore is that same waxed old by time, which then was new begun: and therefore this is but a cavillation of sophisters to shift of an inconueniaunce, which else would ensue: and this is the manner of subtile disputers, as the most part of your opinion be subtle disputers, and have good heads full of invention, and doubtless many of them have much learning, I mought say to much well enough. Theophilus. That is the common saying of your catholics now, and yet I remember within these few years, when they would cry out and say: they have no learning at all, but only have red an English book, a to penny book, as for learning they had none. And now again they say, they deceive all the world by to much learning, this they say, they care not what, so they be talking. But now whereas you think mine objection to be but a cavillation, ye must understand that it is a great matter to deceive men in the principal point of our faith, as to reach us to know the church by a false mean, as they say by antiquity, whereas ye know the best church had it not. But then whereas ye urge antiquity now, for that ye have of long time continued in the doctrine and observances of the Apostles I deny that, and put you to your proofs, wherein do ye continue in the Apostles doctrine and observances. Eusebius. Forseth in all things that the church teacheth, there is nothing as I think, but the Scripture doth teach the same. Theophilus. Then I pray you tell me in what place of the Scripture do you find, that we ought to kneel down, to creep, and kiss Images, to sense them, to deck them, and trim them with such like, or else rather tell me in how many places of the Scripture we be commanded to the contrary. As in the second commandment and a thousand places beside: and like as in that point, so almost in all the rest I could prove that your catholics do not only not follow the doctrine of the holy Scripture but also teach another doctrine contrary to the same: now if they will yet for all that boast themselves of christ, and the Apostles, and yet teach another doctrine contrary to the holy Scriptures: ought we not to take heed and beware of them. Eusebius. Well yet tell me this one thing, hath not christ had a Church hear in earth ever sense his resurrection, hath not the church preached and continued visible, a known church still in all places, not in corners hear or there but thorough out all Christendom, & openly had the rule, and governed the whole congregation from time to time? And your church began of late years, was a strange thing not known, but a little while in a few places of germany and so hear in England, but it is quailed again within short space: and yet I cannot tell how, if it had been the true church of christ, it could not so soon have been overthrown, wherefore if there were nothing else but this reason, yet is it sufficient to stablish the consciences of good simple men. For there can be nothing said unto it. Theoph. Yes Eusebius if ye list to hearken I will answer you in such wise as I trust you shallbe satisfied. E. I will hearken gladly Theophilus, for if ye can answer me to this, I have no more to say. Theophilus. Then hear me I pray you, I grant you that christ hath had a church or congregation hear in earth, which hath continually preached his gospel, his testament, his holy word from his resurrection yea from the beginning unto this day, these have been visible, and known, as john the baptist was known to Herode, christ was known to the jews, for john was beheaded, and christ was crucified, and which of the Apostles escaped that was not put to death, some hanged, some broiled, some roasted, some one cruel death and some another, and therefore ye may be sure they were known. And yet because ye shall not say but even the Apostles hid themselves and fled, ye read how Saint Paul was let down in a basket over the wall and went his way, and I pray you how many years after the Apostles were the men of God vexed and persecuted? And all this was for preaching the gospel of jesus Christ. Now whereas ye lay to our charge that our church began but of late, your church is the more to be suspected for that, which have so long space kept down the gospel, for we profess none other doctrine than the Apostles and Martyrs did, which died for it, as ye see how our preachers and divers other good brethren are contented to give over their lives likewise for the same, as the Apostles did. For christ hath taught in divers places that we should suffer for his doctrine, but he never taught to kill any for it. The rule that your Prelates have taken over the churches, hath been and yet is like princes, and not like Apostles: they play the destroyers, but not the saviours: they follow their master the devil, and not our master christ. And therefore let no man think that christ maintaineth his church in such pomp and pride, but rather layeth on them the cross, for he sayeth the servant is not greater than his Lord: if they have persecuted me they shall also persecute you and so forth. But now your Prelates find out such bald reasons to persuade the simple to be of their side, and say they, where are these new fellows become? they be gone, but Christ's church is a visible church a known church, & not hid in corners. But showeth herself openly. And such like. But I pray you where was their church in King Edward's days: If there were no more reasons to prove it a false church but that same one, it were sufficient to prove them false dissemblers. For where as Christ's Apostles, disciples, and many Martyrs after that would rather lose their lives then deny their master or his doctrine: they were contented not only to subscribe, but also to preach earnestly against that which they now defend: if ye will have one named, axe the bishop of London whether he have not preached against the Pope? Yea and which of them hath not? where was there any of them that would burn his little finger for the maintenance of their doctrine? And now ye see the other company, having another manner of hope of the resurrection, they come and offer themselves. I tell you truth hear is a great difference, and if, yet for all this, you will have that Christ'S church, which is so addicted to the world, that for safeguard of their lives and livings, they will say whatsoever they shall: then Christ's church were wonderfully changed from that it was in the beegynning. Weigh you the matter in your conscience brother Eusebius. Yea behold what pleasure they have in shedding of blood. Eusebius. Surely ye have laid sore to my charge brother Theophilus, and to say the truth, their tyranny my stomach doth abhor But yet tell me one thing, if these signs, and tokens be uncertain to know Christ'S church, how do you know the true spouse of Christ? what tokens can you show me whereby I might assuredly know Christ'S church and not be deceived. Theophilus. I will tell you brother Eusebius, but first call to remembrance, the warning that christ gave us to be ware of false Prophets, and also the admonition of saint Paul to the same end, and the witness of saint john, who affirmed that many were come in his time, and in many places of saint Paul, ye shall see how he complaineth of them that they went about to subvert the gospel of christ and that in the name of Christ. And therefore to th'intent we should not be deceived under the colour of holy ancient fathers or any such like: Gala. 1. he gave us this most certain and infallible rule saying: If we ourselves (mark well his words) if we ourselves, or an Angel from heaven preach unto you a gospel that hath not been preached already to you, hold him accursed. As I said, so I say again (sayeth he) if we or an Angel from heaven preach unto you another doctrine which hath not been by us preached already, let him be accursed, and so forth. Now tell me Eusebius, If your catholic church do preach any doctrine, beside or contrary to the doctrine of saint Paul and the rest of the Apostles, have we not here a plain rule to refuse them and hold them accursed? And have we not here sufficient instruction how to know the perfect true church? Eusebius. Verily I cannot tell what to say, for ye have almost caught me in your net, but yet I will learn more arguments to oppose against you, the which if you can likewise solute, I will give place, for me thinks ye mean well, and I partly doubt whether in very deed ye have the verity on your side, the which being certainly known, I will not be ashamed to confess mine ignorance. For what should we seek but the glory of christ? Theophilus. Would God all english men were like minded, I mean not that they should straight way give place to us, but that they would quietly be contented to debate the matter charitably, brotherly and friendly: some there be that would but they bear not the sway, and therefore with patience we must remain and behold what the good will and pleasure of our Lord God is upon us, for our offences and sins. Eusebius. Now surely the sentence is given in every kingdom within itself divided shall be destroyed. Theophi. Well the good will of god be done. Except we may deceive his Prophets by earnest repentance with the Ninivites as is said before, as jonas was deceived, else there is no remedy. But yet who so putteth his trust in the lord shall not be confounded: therefore whatsoever become of the rest, happy are they that put their trust in the lord. Brother Eusebius when your arguments be ready, let us have them in communication. I shall be ready at all times by God's grace to hear you. In the mean season I commit you to god. E Far ye well brother Theo With all my heart. FINIS. Dominus mí chì adiutor nò timebo quid faciat mihi homo. ¶ P. N ¶ The lords prayer. Our father which in heaven art, And makest us all one brotherhood: To call upon thee with one heart, Our heavenly father and our god: Grant we pray not with lips alone, But with the heart deep sigthe and groan. Thy blessed name be sanctified, Thy heavenly word mought us inflame In holy life for to abide, To magnify thine holy name. From all errors defend and keep, The little flock of thy poor sheep. Thy kingdom come even at this hour, And henceforth everlastingly: Thine holy ghost into us power, With all his gifts most plenteously: From Satan's rage and filthy band, Defend us with thy mighty hand. Thy will be done with diligence, Like as in heaven in earth also: In trouble grant us patience, And thee to obey in wealth and woe. Let not flesh, blood or any ill, Prevail against thy holy will. give us this day our daily bread, And all other good things of thine: Keep us from war and from bloudesheade, Also from sickness, dearth and pine: That we may live in quietness, Without all greedy carefulness. forgive us our offences all, relive our careful conscience: As we forgive both great and small, Which unto us have done offence: Prepare us lord for to serve thee, In perfect love and unity. O Lord into temptation, Lead us not when the find doth rage: To withstand his invasion, give power and strength in every age: Arm and make strong thy feeble host, With faith and with the holy ghost. O Lord from evil deliver us, The days and times are dangerous. From everlasting death save us, And in our last need comfort us. A blessed end to us bequeath: Into thine hands our souls receive. For thou o Lord art king of kings: And thou hast power over all, Thy glory shineth in all things, In the wide world universal. Amen let it be done o Lord, That we have prayed with one accord, AMEN.