A CONFERENCE BETWIXT A MOTHER A DEVOUT RECUSANT, AND HER Son a zealous protestant, seeking by humble and dutiful satisfaction to win her unto the truth, and public worship of god established now in England.  
Gathered by him whose hearts desire is, that all may come to the knowledge of God, and be saved.  2. Corinth. 11.1. 
Would to God you could a little tolerate my foolishness, yea indeed bear with me. For I am zealous over you with a godly zeal.  
PRINTED BY JOHN LEGAT, Printer to the University of Cambrige. 1600.   

TO THE REVErend father in God, my VERY GOOD LORD GERVASE by the providence of God, Lord Bishop of Worcester.  
WHat maketh me willing to publish this pamplet, your L. will easily judge by the argument; what helps I have had therein, so many as have hard your Lordship's public exhortations or private conferences in matter of religion, will as easily conjecture, it being indeed nothing else but a gleaning of your L. great harvest, and a cluster of your own vintage. And therefore what cause I have to sue for your honourable approbation, I need not proclaim unto the world, save that I must needs confess myself by many many bonds, more than I may well make known, to be tied in all duty unto your L. to whom next under almighty God and her sacred Majesty I own whatsoever I have beside this corruptible man. I may not particularise your honourable and innumerable favours, lest I exceed the limits of a preface, and break the bonds of sobriety, and so incur the just displeasure of your Lordship. Only I crave pardon herein to acknowledge that as once in the University by your Lordship's happy hand I was brought into the sheepfold of the great shepherd, so in your honour's service I have been led continually by the same gracious hand in and out to the green pastures and pleasant streams of ever living water, and learned that which may stead me all my life long, and in the world to come for ever, it I be not wanting unto myself. Wherefore may it please your Lordship, to vouchsafe me your wont honourable favour to cover whatsoever my defects in this attempt, and to accept this testimony of my true and due affection to your L. I shall be still more and more bound, and I hope always mindful to bow the knees of my heart unto the highest, (whose recompense is a sufficient reward) for the continuance of his gracious eye upon you, and all your honourable affairs for ever.  
Your L. humble chaplain Francis Savage.   

To the Reader.  
LActantius for eloquence in the publishing of gods holy truth writeth eloquently, Licèt veritas posset sine eloquentiâ defendi ut est à multis saepè defensa, tamen claritate ac nitore sermonis illustranda & quodammodo disserenda est, ut potentius in animos influat. Wherein he seemeth somewhat to censure all those that want this skill, but by a little transposition we may keep his meaning, and turn the sentence thus. Although its meet with perspicuity and purity of speech to illustrate and set forth the truth, and so, as it were, 
〈◊〉. 104  with skilful hand to sow it, that it may more forcibly flow into the minds of men, yet may it be maintained well without eloquence and ornament of words: which is a sufficient motive to all honest minds which wish well to the prosperity of Zion, to put to their helping hands though weak and feeble in the spiritual building of God's house. Yet a greater encouragement is that which S. Hierom saith, Fides pura non quaerit strophas & argumenta verborum. The purity of faith hunteth not after colourable sleights and wil●e wordy arguments. But Tertullians' speech in some sort enjoineth this service and exacteth it as a duty. Veritas amat Spiritus sancti figuram, 
●●ra Valent  Orientem amat, nihil erubescit, nisi solummodò abscondi. The truth loves the light, the morning star, & breaking of the day, she is abashed at nothing save only the cover and night of darkness and obscurity. And sure how homely soever she seem in the eyes of some, and in regard of the habit wherewith she is some times attired, yet being always in herself like the king's daughter all glorious within, and in the estimate of the wise full of majesty and grace, and justified ever of all her children, she cometh forth like the Sun rising, as a bridegroom out of his chamber, and as a giant ready to run his course. Wherefore (gentle Reader) accept in good part, I pray thee, this my service and goodwill, won by these inducements: and if this man of might meet thee in any corner of this simple cottage, look not upon the outward earthen walls, but cast thine eye within upon the prince himself, yielding thine homage of reverence and obedience ever due.  
Fran. Savage.   
August. de Trin. lib. 1. cap. 2. & 3. 
Nec pigebit me, sicubi haesito, quaerere, nec pudebit sicubi erro, discere. Proinde quisquis haec legit▪ ubi paritèr certus est pergat mecum: ubi paritèt haesitat, quaerat mecum: ubi errorem suum cogno scit, redeat adme: ubi meum, revocet me. Ita ingreaiamur simul charitatis viam, 
Psal. 104.  tē●entes adeum, de quo dictum est, Quaerite faciem eius semper.   

A DIALOGUE BETWIXT A Mother and her son being a student in the university & come over into the country to see his friends, profitable to be be read of all that desire to be satisfied touching matter of religion and coming to Church.  M. 
COme Son, you shall go with me to your father's farm, this fair day is very fit to walk abroad, and moderate walking is commended of all as good physic.  S. 
I will gladly attend you Mother, both in regard of your pleasure, and this fit opportunity for the exercise of our bodies, which is the best physic that many a poor scholar hath in the university: but I hope the farm you go unto is not far off, because you speak of moderate walking.  M 
What? know you not your father's houses? this is the good that cometh of your long absence, & your father's care to send you so far away, which hath much grieved me, and in which respect I have often reques●●● him ●o send for you home.  S 
Good Mother, I see and feel to my 〈…〉 I have ever done, your tend●● 〈◊〉 and bowels of loving kinden●●●●●wards me, and I must needs acknowledge my father's great love even in this which you seem to mislike, that he sent me to the university, for sure he did it in his special care over me, and in wisdom for my safety.  M. 
Safety? I pray you from what? would your mother's eye have done you any harm?  S. 
I would be very loath, mother, to offend you, and therefore if I have spoken any thing unadvisedly, I humbly crave pardon.  M. 
Nay son, we have not been so long a sunder, to fall out at first: and therefore I will not be offended so soon, but I will enjoin you to speak plain, and to tell me in earnest what you meant by safety.  S. 
I beseech you good mother, let me go no further in this matter, my coming home to see you would do me little good if through my folly and unapt speech I should procure your mislike.  M. 
I tell you again it shall not be so, and therefore neither stand with me any longer, nor fear, but tell me your meaning.  S. 
Surely, upon your kind promise of pardon, I confess I meant safety from mis-instruction in religion, whilst I was young and easy to be led by those whom I reverenced.  M. 
Ah sir: now you deal plainly with me indeed, and I see as plainly the fruits of your university company, and of your father's care, even to make a conceited young man of you, before you have ripeness of years to discern in matters of such weight, as religion is.  S. 
Good mother, for mine university company & my father's most loving care I bless God, and thank them both as I am bound: neither shall you by god's grace find me conceited o● head strong above my true knowledge: mine hearty prayer is for humility, and against pride.  M. 
Son it is well said, and so praying assure yourself god will hear your request and grant your desire: but yet for your knowledge in divinity I hope it is not so great, but that a poor woman that hath neithr Logic nor Rhetoric, yet a little latin, may argue the case with you, and ask you of your new doctrine that I see hath gotten some favour in your eyes: how you dare take liking of it, and rest upon it: since by all truly learned, it hath been called and still is reputed and held for very fearful and damnable heresy. Alas poor boy if thou shouldst miscarry, thy father should answer God for thee, and what a grief it is to me, to think either of the one or the other, let my tears testify.  S. 
Dear mother, quiet yourself, and think of neither: for by God's grace there shall be no cause.  M. 
No cause? when now being but a youth in comparison, you are as full of heresy as an egg is full of meat, and so like to taste either ever or long of that liquor that first hath been powered into you.  S. 
You are told it is heresy, by those that are not truly learned, as you term them, but ignorant, and so lead you and others awry with them: but god is able in his good time to let you see it is truth and no heresy.  M. 
That should be a great change, son, as I think, and because I could as willingly hear you as any, and you seem to think the matter plain, I pray you let me hear what you can say, and what our new masters have taught you.  S. 
Your firm and fervent love to me, dear mother, gives me encouragement to speak boldly unto you what I am able & yet within terms of duty and reverence ever due unto you: but if you will charge me to speak any more, double again unto me your comfortable promise of pardon in all things: for my heart trembleth for fear to offend you any ways.  M. 
Son, I do double it, and assuredly promise it, therefore be not afraid, your respective affection to me I note, & it shall not hurt you.  S. 
My answer then good mother, as near as either memory or my note book, which I have also about me will serve, shall be the very words of such worthy men as have written on our side, that thereby both the want of authority which is in my youth may be supplied with their credit, and the profit of reading our books which papists make so dangerous, better observed by as many as are not desperately sick of rebellion and contumacy against the Lord. First therefore touching the name of heresy, 
Heresy.  which even now you mentioned, and I know you often hear out of their mouths, who resort unto you: thus hath it been answered on our side many a time and often. As the accusation is bitter and grievous, yea even such as the old father S. Jerome saith, No man ought to be patiented no not in suspitiō thereof: so is it not new or strange to have gods truth slandered wi●h this name: and therefore it is a good caveat, not to be carried away with the name, till we have well examined the matter, and found it to agree with the name, and rightly to be so called: which that we may do, we must know, that for just proof of heresy, two things are neccessarily required: first that it be an Error in matter of Christian faith: secondly, that it be stoutly and obstinately maintained: otherwise, an error in God's truth without obstinate maintenance is not an heresy. S. Austen saith therefore, Errare possum, haereticus esse non possum; In an error I may be, but an heretic I cannot be: meaning because he intended not obstinately to maintain an error. Whereunto is agreeable that good saying of S. Hilary, Illis in eo quod nesciunt potest adhuc in tuto ●sse salus sicredant, 
●●lar. de Trin. 6.  tibi verò iam omnia ad salutem clausa sunt qui negas quod iam ignorare non potes: They for as much as they know not the truth, may have their salvation in safety, if afterwards they believe, but all hope of health is shut up from thee, forasmuch as thou deniest that thing which thou canst not choose but know. See, how dangerous wilful and obstinate maintenance of an error is, but neither of these two points will be found in us, and therefore far are we from justly deserving the name of heretics, or our true faith the name of heresy. This is an old practice of Satan to deal thus with God's truth and the professors thereof. S. Paul was called before the judges to make answer to a matter of heresy, as you may read to your great contentment in the Acts of the Apostles and he answered, 
Act. 24.  that indeed according to that way which they called heresy, he worshipped the God of his fathers. But for all their calling and bawling it was far from being so, because he believed all things which were written in the law & the Prophets, and for that his manner of worship was wholly agreeable to the scriptures, which no heresy can be. Christ our dear Saviour for no other cause was called a Samaritane, but only for that he was thought to have fallen to a certain new religion, and to be the author of a new sect. 
in Apologer  Tertullian witnesseth that in his time even this very religion which we now profess, was called a sect and heresy, that thereby Princes ears might be stopped from hearing any thing spoken or written in defence of the Christians. Eusebius doth the like, 
4. c. 18.  saying, that the religion of Christ was called, impiorum Christian orum Haeresis, The heresy of the wicked Christians. 
Epist. ad. Tit.  S. Hierome considering well the place before named in the Acts, saith, Quod magis mirum sit, etc. And that we may the more marvel we may once again read this place of the Acts of the Apostles; where we find that the Christian and Ecclesiastical discipline was even then of wicked men called Heresy. Many others have witnessed as much; therefore since it is no new thing, but the very custom of Satan ever, I trust you see there is great cause not to be carried away with men's speeches, whose eyes be blinded by the god of this world, but with true and sound proofs. If they cannot show that we have fallen away from Christ, nor from his Apostles, nor from the prophets, if we believe (as surely we do) all that is written in them, & maintain nothing as necessary to salvation, but what may be plainly showed to be taught us by them, how injurious and shameful yea fearful a dealing it is nevertheless to call us Heretics, good mother consider in yourself. Me thinks in this place S. Austin's speech sometimes to Petilian the Donatist, is good, who said thus: 
contra Petil. 2. cap. 85.  Vtrum nos schismatici sumus an vos, nec ego, nec tu, sed Christus interrogetur, ut indicet Ecclesiam suam: Whether of us be schismatic (or heretics (ask not of either of us, but let Christ be asked for us both, that he may show us his own Church: that is, let the scriptures be searched and let them declare the truth, which they will do.  M. 
Son, for your first point, that it is not safe to judge of things by names, because God's truth hath been called heresy as you have showed, and I see it plainly, I join with you, and take it for a good caveat hereafter to beware: but for your second point, that therefore you should not be counted heretics, because you say you hold nothing disagreeable to the scriprures, I cannot approve it, because heretics as I have heard, at all times have boasted of scripture as you do.  S. 
Good mother, I am very glad you perceive how truth hath been slandered with the name of heresy, 
Scripture.  and therefore how fit it is in matters of salvation not to be moved by speeches of men, but ever to search & seek for due & true proof: and for the second point, I trust God shall make you see it also, if it please you to go along with me. True it is which you say you have heard, that heretics allege scripture, and you know that the devil himself who is as bad as any heretic, 
〈◊〉. 4.  alleged scriptures: but what then? is not it therefore a safe way to cleave to the scriptures, and only upon them to ground our faith? yes surely: which shall appear even by this practice of Satan being duly considered; for such is the skill of that old subtle serpent, that as he knoweth to fit his temptations to the humour and disposition of them whom he tempteth, so he useth to set upon men by those persuasions which he is most likely to seduce them by, as to Eve in paradise he promised the knowledge of good and evil: 
〈◊〉. 3. ●●od. 7. 〈◊〉. Chron. 18.11.  to obstinate Pharaoh he presented lying wonders: to wicked Ahab delighting in lies he came in the month and consent of many false prophets: to the superstitious and hypocritical jews he pretended the temple of the Lord: 
●er. 7.4. ●ct. 19.27. & 17. ●●.  to the populous & ancient heathen universality and antiquity: & to our Saviour the written word of God, which he thought (if any thing) would prevail with him. So the devil in alleging only scripture against our Saviour turneth himself into an angel of light, and would seem to do that which is most holy in itself, most acceptable unto god, most comfortable to men, most sure for their safeguard and protection; which doth not discredit the trial of truth in points of faith by scripture only, but rather countenance and confirm it, because it argueth the disposition and settled affection of our blessed Saviour towards these sacred writings, that he made them the tower of his defence, the rock of his safeguard, the foundation of his whole obedience, & accounted nothing a ground of faith and duty but only scripture, and therefore that we likewise should cleave fast to the written word of God, turning neither to the right nor left hand, but walking constantly in the obedience thereof. Wherefore though this alleging of scripture be a work of darkness, both because he did mis●alleadge it, leaving out a principal part of the sentence, and so corrupting it, and also for that he did it as a lying spirit to deceive. Yet to allege the scripture rightly, with an upright mind to a good end, shall ever be as the duty of God's people, so the shield and buckler of their defence, yea the crown and glory of the children of light, whereby they shall resemble their head our blessed Saviour Christ jesus, who as you may see in the gospel gave not over his hold, because the devil abused it, but with scripture again he answered him, and so both justified himself, and confounded his adversary, which also hath been the manner, good mother, of the church of God at all times. As namely at the first most holy and uncorrupt Council held at Jerusalem by the Apostles themselves, 
〈◊〉. 15.  where the question debated was whether the believing Gentiles could be saved only by faith in Christ jesus without circumcision and the observation of the law of Moses, as Paul and Barnabas affirmed and preached against certain who came from judea, and taught the contrary. For the deciding whereof, in that most catholic and orthodoxal Council S. Peter alleged the testimony of God himself who sent him to the Gentiles (Cornelius and his friends) to preach unto them, not the law of Moses, but the word of the gospel, that they might believe, and blessed his ministery with happy success, giving unto them the holy ghost, and purifying their hearts by saith, which he calleth God's testimony. God (saith he) bare witness unto them giving them the holy ghost etc.▪ 
〈◊〉. 8. ●.  And S. james in his sentence alleged the written word of God both to confirm that which S. Peter had delivered, and to end the controversy: 
〈◊〉. 14.  simeon (saith he) hath declared how god first visited the Gentiles, & took of them a people unto his name, and to this agree the words of the Prophets, as it is written etc. Likewise at the famous Counsel of Nice, the worthy Emperor Constantine whom god raised up to end the persecutions of his Church, and to give it rest, said thus to the bishops assembled there. 
Theod. lib. 1. cap. 7.  Evangelicae & Apostolicae literae, etc. the writings of the Evangelists and Apostles and the sayings of the olds Prophets do clearly instruct us, what judgement we ought to have of the meaning and will of God. Therefore laying aside all contention let us seek out of those heavenly oracles the assoiling of our questions. And of the Arrian heretics, who in that counsel were overthrown, another saith thus, Explicantes sacras scripturas ill●s evertimus, 
Socr. l. 1. c. 6.  by opening and expounding the holy scriptures we overthrow them. The like rule was followed at the counsel held at Constantinople, against the heretic Macedonius, that denied the divinity of the holy ghost: never move question hereof, saith Athanasius, 
ad Serapion.  but learn of the holy scriptures, for the only proofs that you shall there find are sufficient. And in another place the same father saith, Scripturae sufficiunt adveritatis instructionem sive institutionem: 
●●ra Gen●es ●●l Idola.  the scriptures are sufficient to instruct us in the truth: Mark I pray you the word Sufficiunt. In the other two Counsels also of Ephesus and Chalcedon, 
●vagrius.  we read of the same course: all things were concluded by the words of the Evangelists and Apostles. The ancient father Origen saith, 
Rom. lib. 10.16.  unde quàm propè periculis illi sunt, etc. See and consider in what danger they be, that have no care to read the holy scriptures, for by the same scriptures only the judgement of this trial must be allowed. 
jerom. hom. 1.  And in another place, Necesse est nobis scripturas sanctas in testimonium vocare, sensus quip nostri & enarrationes sine iis testibus non habent fidem. We must needs call to witness the holy scriptures, for our judgements and expositions without those witnesses carry no credit: a notable saying if it please you to mark it. And with him S. Austen fully agreeth, when he saith, 
〈◊〉 Na●. & Grat. ●.  Solis Canonicis scipturis sine ulla recusatione consensum debeo. Only to the Canonical scriptures do I own my consent without gainsaying. The same father again, when he disputed against Petilian the Donatist, 
●●c Vnit. Ec●les. c. 3.  said, Let not these words be heard between us I say, or you say, but let us rather speak in this wise, thus saith the Lord. Auferantur de medio chartae nostrae, procedat in medium codex dei, 
contra li●. P● l. 3 c. 6.  Away with our books and let God's book come in place. Sive enim de Christo, sive de Ecclesia sive de quacunque aliâre, quae pertinet adfidem vitamque nostram, non dicamsi nos, etc. For whether it be of Christ, or of his Church or of any thing else what soever pertaining either to our life or to our faith, I will not say if I myself, but if an angel from heaven shall teach us otherwise then we have received in the books of the law and in the gospel, hold him accursed. This is the proof (saith he again) quae nec falli, nec fallere potest, 
de peccat. m●● & remist. l. 1. c. 2●.  which can neither deceive, nor be deceived. To the very same effect speak all the fathers I assure you, if it were needful to repeat their words. I beseech you (saith S Chrisostom) weigh not what this man or that thinketh, 
in 2. Cor. ho●●●.  but touching all things search the scriptures. S. Hierom saith, Quod de scriptures autoritatem non habet, eadem ●acilitate contemnitur qua probatur, 
in 23. Mat.  that which is not warranted by the scriptures, may as easily be contemned as alleged. And so the rest of the fathers particularly every one: and therefore (good Mother) weigh it and note it, that albeit both heretics & devils abuse the scriptures by alleging them to evil ends, yet is it the true way and the only way to be resolved by, and to find rest for our consciences in all matter of controversy, touching either faith or manners, so taken, so taught, so held by Christ, by his Apostles, and by all the godly fathers, and worthy approved Counsels in the world.  M. 
I must confess that if the scriptures be rightly applied, they are indeed the sure foundation, that aught to be stood upon; but how shall that appear, that you apply them rightly, more than those whom you acknowledge heretics, which likewise have alleged them.  S. 
Good mother, give me leave to make make much of that which I gain from you in this conference, and to reckon it up as dear unto my very soul, for the duty I own you, and for the desire I have, that the truth may be revealed unto you. This therefore now you see and confess, that although all the heretics in the world, and all the devils in hell should allege scripture, and abuse it, yet hath it not been given of God in vain, but serveth as a sure ground of our faith and actions, every thing being allowable that is consonant unto it, and that always faulty, which is contrary unto it: and therefore that we ought not to be beaten from it, by any devise of Satan, but steadfastly to stick unto it, and ever to depend upon it, as the only sure ancher of our souls, in like manner as all those worthy men and Counsels before mentioned have done. For what quietness to my mind like to this? Thou Lord hast commanded me thus to believe and thus to do, therefore I so believe and so do. 
Interpretation of scripture.  Only you stick now at the right application of them, and ask how shall you know that? Surely mother, you shall know it even to your full contentment if you will do as others before you godly and holy persons both men & women have done. 
lib. 83. quaest. 〈◊〉  Saint Austen saith, Solet circumstantia Scripturarum illuminare sententiam, The circumstance of the scriptures is wout to give light and open the meaning thereof. 
in Esai. c. 19  Saint Hierome saith, Moris est scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere, It's the manner of the scriptures after hard things to join other things that be plain. Tertullian saith, Opertet secundum plura intelligi pauciora, The fewer things must be expounded by the more. 
Hil. de Trin. 9  S. Hilary saith, Intelligentia dictorum ex causa dicendi fumenda est, the understanding of things spoken must be taken from the cause of speaking them, expraepositis & consequentibus, by things going before and following after. S, Cyril saith, 
Cyr. Th●s. l. ● c. 2.  whensoever we would understand any place of scripture, we must consider three things, the time when it was written; the person that writ, and to whom, or of whom, and the matter itself. Many such good rules have the fathers which as you see, greatly help in the thing you desire, and which if we use, no doubt we shall find as they found: then have we the gracious promise of gods holy spirit if we ask it; and what a sure guide is that? the performance of which promise see in the Gospel: 
c. 24.  then opened he their understanding that they might understand the scriptures. See it in that good woman Lydia the purple seller, 
〈◊〉. 16.  whose heart was also opened. This blessed gift doth the Apostle think of, when he wisheth to the Ephesians the spirit of wisdom and revelation that the eyes of their understanding might be opened, 
●hes. 1.17.  & lightened that they might know, etc. So to the Philippians and to the Colossians; and of this speaketh Elihu in the book of job, 
●lip. 1.9. glost. 1.9.  There is a spirit in man but the inspiration of the almighty giveth understanding. 
job 32.8.  This did king David know, and therefore asked this heavenly gift by earnest prayer, often saying, Teach me O Lord, teach me thy statutes, teach me thy ways, open mine eyes that I may behold the wonderful things in thy law. Origen saith, Orandus est Deus ut aperiat librum obsignatum, we must beseech God by prayer to open the book that is sealed The Lord is no respect of persons, but as he hath done, he will do, and hear the desires of his children that wish to know his will. This is the way, mother, this is the way that never failed any who used it, neither will it fail you. But you shall see by it the true and right applying of the scriptures, howsoever others abuse and misconstrue them. In a word therefore mark I beseech you, that we do not affirm all cases of doubt to be by manifest and open words plainly expressed in scripture, for so there should need no exposition, but we say and affirm that there is no case in religion necessary to God's worship or man's salvation so dark and doubtful, but it may necessarily be either proved or disproved by true collection and conference in scripture.  M 
Son, I mark your speech well and your words fall not to the ground, yet I hope you will confess that our men do well in regarding the doctors as they do.  S. 
Surely mother, I do confess the doctors of the Church worthy of more regard than is given them sometimes by Romish Catholics. 
Doctoures.  And you see by my alleging of them that I greatly regard them. But seeing you have mentioned this matter I do heartily entreat you to mark a few things in that behalf. First that they are not Domini sedduces nostri, Not our Lords but our leaders. And therefore S. Augustin saith, Other writers or fathers (besides the holy scriptures) I read in this sort, that be their learning or holiness never so great, I will not think it true because they have thought so, but because they are able to persuade me so either by Canonical writers, or else by some likely reason. Likewise again, This kind of writings (meaning the holy doctoures) must be read not with necessity to believe each thing, but with liberty to judge each thing. For we may not consent to the bishops, notwithstanding they be Catholic, 
●nit. Eccl. c.  if they judge contrary to the holy Canonical scriptures. This is the right credit of holy fathers; they are not the truth of God itself, but only witnesses unto the truth: no more have they they themselves ever desired, no less ought we ever to give them. Hear I pray you the words of the same father again, we receive not the disputations or writings of any men be they never so Catholic or praiseworthy, 
Fortunat. ●●t. 111.  as we receive the Canonical scriptures, but that saving their reverence we may well reprove or refuse some things in their writings, if it happen we find they have otherwise though then the truth may bear them out: such am I in the writings of others, and such would I wish others to be in mine. He writeth to S. Hierom again to the same effect Non puto frater, 
ep. 19  etc. My brother I do not think you would have us so to read your books as if they were written by the Apostles and Prophets. To the like purpose writeth Tertullian of himself and the rest, wherein their holy modesty is worthy great praise for ever, they took not upon them to be Lords but leaders: and to that end the Lord hath given them as excellent lights to his church. So of Counsels S. Austen telleth us, that the former are rejected by the later, etc. Likewise Panormitan saith, we ought to give more credit to on lay man, then to an whole council and to the Pope, if he bring better authority and more reason. This is my first observation in this matter of the doctors. My second is this which I humbly pray you to mark, that as scriptures have been abused by heretics, so have fathers, and therefore if we must give over the one for mis-applyings, so must we the other also for the same reason. The Arrian heretics alleged Origens' books for their defence and safeguard: 
Socr. l. 4. c. Concil. Ch act. 2. p. 732  the heretic Eutiches said, I have read the writings of the father Saint Cyprian, as also of other holy writers, and of the holy father Saint Athanasius. Another of his sect cried, this is my faith according to the exposition of 318 fathers. The Nestorian heretics alleged the Counsel of Nice: 
p. ●●7.  and not to weary you with many, Dioscorus the heretic cried out in the open Council of Chalcedon, 
〈◊〉 1. p. 767.  Ego habeo testimonia sanctorum patrum, I have the testimonies of the holy fathers, Athanasius, Gregory, Cyrill, I vary not from them in any point: I am thrown forth and banished with the fathers, I defend the father's doctrine, I have their judgement uttered not by chance or unadvisedly, but remaining expressed in their books. Therefore you see, good mother, that heretics have cried as well fathers, fathers as scriptures, scriptures, and yet neither the one nor the other for this cause to be rejected. My third observation might be of counterfeit and young yesterday father's alleged by papists, and of small credit or reverence given to fathers by them that boast thus of fathers when they please, whereof I assure you we have notable examples, with many things more, but that I fear to be troublesome unto you.  M. 
Yet son, seeing our faith was long before yours, me thinks the fathers should rather make for us then for you.  S. 
And why say you not so of the scriptures which were many years before any of the fathers? Surely if your faith were before ours, 
Old faith.  as well scriptures as fathers would give on your side, and indeed both would make for you, 
New faith.  the father's desiring to hold nothing but that they judged agreeable to scripture, which ever they make the rule and ground of faith and truth, and not their own writings, as you have seen. But good Mother they abuse you and many more, that tell you your faith (that is, as now you mean, the Romish faith) was before ours: for I assure you it is not so, but very new and young in comparison of ours.  M. 
What? our faith new, Son, & yours old? Alas I see these new teachers have possessed you mightily, & you are so carried away with them, that they are able to make you believe any thing. Why tell me the crow is white or the snow is black.  S. 
Good Mother, the Lord hath moved your heart to hear me speak who am yours and of you. If I speak amiss, as you think, and so as you cannot consent unto me & with me, leave we it both to the working power of a mighty God, who in further time can give further light and understanding to his children that humbly crave it, and are not lifted up with an high hand to withstand his offered grace. Only according to this motherly love that you have began to show me, vouchsafe to hear me still, upon what grounds I have settled myself, and with what proof I am moved to think as I do.  M. 
Surely son, I could not abide or endure to hear any other once speak of such a strange thing as this, but say you on what you list, you are my child.  S. 
I do verily believe it seemeth most strange to you and to many more of your side, to hear that your religion is new and ours old. Yet I doubt not but to make it evidently apparent unto you and all whosoever shall without prejudice duly consider my allegations and proof. But first I must interpret myself in a word or two what I mean by your faith and religion. I pray you therefore when I speak of your Romish religion think not that I mean the whole doctrine and all the articles of faith and religion taught and professed by the Papists, but only those points of doctrine wherein they differ from us. For in general they hold the doctrine of the law and ten commandments as we do, saving that they leave out the second commandment which forbiddeth the worshipping of Idols and Images, making two of the tenth: they profess also the sum of the gospel, at least in generality and in words, to wit, that Christ jesus perfect God and perfect man hath wrought our full redemption, and by the blood of his cross and precious death, & prrfect obedience hath delivered us from eternal death, the fierch and everlasting wrath of God, the due desert of our transgressions, and purchased for us everlasting peace and bliss: they maintain also and profess in words as we also do the three creeds, the Nicene, the Athanasian, and the Apostolic creed, wherein is comprised the sum of our faith and the doctrine we profess, they acknowledge that most excellent form and pattern of prayer taught us in the gospel by our Saviour, and use it, and many other good and godly prayers which we also use, even all those well-near in our common liturgy except a very few for our most gracious Queen &. saving that they use them in latin, we in english that all may understand and say amen. Wherefore when I say that your religion is new, mean not generally, nor of the things before rehearsed, but only in respect of certain other articles and points of religion maintained by Romish catholics, as namely, 1. that the traditions of the church are of equal authority wi●h the word of god to be embraced with like reverence and devotion. 2. that the vulgar latin translation commonly called Hieromes is only authentical▪ 3. that the imputation of Christ's righteousness and obedience to the faithful is a fantasy without ground in God's word. 4. that the bread in the sacrament of the Eucharist transubstantiated into the body of Christ is to be adored. 5. that the faithful are able to keep the whole law of God. 6. that the Pope is Christ's general vicar upon earth, having absolute power to ratify or disannul all manner of decrees and ordinances, and to dispense with the express and moral precepts of God at his pleasure. 7. That the whole Church without him can neither enact nor infringe any law ecclesiastical, nor interpret any scripture. 8. that the holy scriptures ought not to be translated into any vulgar tongue or read of the lay people. 9 that the sacrament of the Lords supper is to be administered only in bread and not in wine, 
Quia sapor possit generate suspitionem quòd esset ibi ●inum.  lest as the Sorbonists at Paris say, the people should smell it to be wine and so doubt of transubstantiation. 10. that good works are meritorious, and that by them we are justified in the sight of God. 11. that the souls of the faithful dying before perfect repentance, suffer the torments of purgatory. 12. that prayers are to be made in an unknown tongue, & such like: of all which and the rest, wherein they disagree from us, I say they are new and yesterday opinions in comparison of the faith which we hold consonant to the holy scriptures, and those famous ancient creeds before mentioned. And therefore now to proceed to the declaration of that which I have undertaken touching the novelty of your faith. Thus good Mother, have our men written & at this day teach: that it goeth not with Religion as it doth with the statutes of the realm, & judgements at common law, where the later is thought to be the better: but in religion the first and eldest is best. Therefore they ever remember that golden saying of Tertullian, that is true which was first, that is first, which was from the beginning, and that was from the beginning which was delivered by the Apostles, but our faith is that was delivered by the Apostles yours is not, therefore ours is from the beginning, and so first, yours not, and therefore later. Now that ours is that which was delivered by the Apostles they prove it thus. Another ancient father saith, That which the Apostles preached and delivered to the world by preaching, 
Irenaeus.  they afterward by the will of God committed to writing, that for ever it might be the foundation and ground of faith. Whereupon it followeth, that which the Apostles preached is the old, ancient, Catholic and Apostolic saith, but that which they have written is that which they preached: so saith this father; therefore that which is written is the true ancient Catholic, and Apostolic faith, & that is ours. For, as I have said, we hold nothing as necessary to salvation but that which is truly taught us out of these written scriptures. Therefore our faith is that which was delivered by the Apostles, your faith is not that which is written. For your men will not be tried by the scriptures only, as knowing that many things they hold have no warrant there, but have devised unwritten traditions, therefore yours is not that which was deliveeed by the Apostles, and not the old faith, but a late new faith devised by men.  M 
Why? that which was delivered by tradition, 
Tradition.  was delivered by the Apostles as well as that which they wrote.  S. 
True Mother, if it could as sound appear unto us what they delivered, as it doth by their writings what they preached But this father that I named unto you, saith, they wrote that which they delivered, and they wrote it by the will of God as not trusting tradition unwritten, and they wrote it to be for ever the ground of our faith, noting that unwritten tradition may not be the ground, because it is uncertain and full of imperfection as I could show you, if we were to speak of that matter. Therefore seeing this which is written is certainly and assuredly that which they delivered, and we hold nothing but that which is agreeable to this, which is written, you see it is most plain, that we hold nothing but that which the Apostles themselves delivered, and so our faith the old faith which was from the beginning and first.  M. 
Surely if you hold nothing but that which is written, it is certain that that which was written was delivered by the Apostles, and so it followeth that you hold nothing but that which was delivered by the Apostles and Prophets, and therefore your faith old indeed and not to be rejected. And for tradition, although we may be told that this and that was delivered by the Apostles and their successors, and so by them to theirs again to this day, yet I must needs confess that is not so manifest and plain as which is written, neither doth it yield such contentment to my conscience. But I can not tell what to say it is a sure and steadfast way to trust to that which is written, rather than to that which is reported, and yet I am loath ●o offend, you shall give me leave to pause & think more of it.  S. 
Yea dear Mother, and with the heart of a dutiful child I say the father of our Lord jesus Christ lighten the eyes of your understanding in all things to the glory of his great name and your eternal comfort: but be you assured in this that we hold nothing as needful to our salvation, but that which is written in express words, or by sure and plain collection, and therefore make the consequence as the Lord shall direct you.  M. 
How then cometh it to pass that your religion is still called new, new?  S. 
Even as I told you before, it is one of Satan's tricks to discredit truth, and hath in all times been used of him. But as then yourself collected by that which I alleged, that it is not safe to be lead by terms and names without due considering how justly and truly they are given, so I beseech you do here again, and be not moved with the name: for questionless there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the religion of God, then to accuse it of novelty, as a matter lately found out. For as there can be no change in God himself, so ought there be no change in his religion Yet still I say, Satan hath taken this course even from the beginning to call truth new, which indeed is not only of greatest antiquity▪ but also from everlasting. That ungracious & blood thirsty Haman, when he sought to procure the king Assuerus his dspleasure against the jews, used this slander against them of novelty, telling the king that he had in his domion a kind of people that used certain new laws of their own etc. 
Act. 1●.  When Paul also began first to preach and expound the Gospel at Athens, he was called a tidings-bringer of new Gods, that is, of a new religion: for said the Athenians, may we not know of thee what new doctrine this is▪ Origen again telleth us of Celsus, that when he wrote of set purpofe against Christ▪ to the end he might scornfully scosse at the gospel, he accused it of novelty and said: 
Orig. con●a C●lsum.  what hath God after so many ages now at last bethought himself? whose vile blasphemies that ancient father in his books written against him answereth. Eusebius also saith, that the Christian religion from the beginnnig for very spite was called new and strange, 
Euseb. l. 1▪ c. 4.  〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sentence was given of condemnation that S. Audrewe should be crucified for teaching and enterprising a new sect and taking away the religion of their Gods. Shall we then be moved with this term, and carried away with this name? No, God forbidden. These examples are a fair warning for us to take heed of that lightness and rashness. Let the devil rage against truth with what names God shall suffer him, and his members, yet this shall ever stand, that the doctrine of the Church is elder than any Idolatry or superstition of the Gentiles, that the doctrine of the Gospel was preached in Paradise by God himself, saying, The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head. That the writings of Moses are elder the any writings of the Gentiles, the doctrine of the Apostles elder than Popery or any other heresy, and that we at this day hold nothing, as I have often said, but what appeareth out of the Apostles own writings allowed both by us and our adversaries to be their writings, to be their own doctrine delivered to the Church to be believed, and for men and women to be saved by.  M. 
Surely I see still it is not safe to be carried away with names, and to believe all to be new, which is called so, or all old which is named old: for so we may be deceived. But yet in show of the world ours hath had a longer continuance than yours.  S. 
I must needs here once again remember you what I mean by your religion, to wit those points of doctrine only wherein you differ from us. And then I answer, first that your religion even in show of the world hath not had a longer continuance than ours, especially for the principal points whereon we stand, as namely, 1. the articles of our Creed which is a brief and sum of catholic faith, as Athanasius plainly witnesseth, 
Symbol Athanas.  Haec est fides Catholica, and the Council of Trent confesseth. 1. the acknowledgement of gods divine law, and the worshipping of god according to that law. 3. the doctrine of repentance from dead works and of faith in jesus Christ for the remission of sin. 4 the doctrine of the Sacraments, Baptism, and the Lords supper, which are the fundamental points of out faith and religion, and the rock whereon we build our souls and Church, and without controversy of greater antiquity than those points of doctrine which we call popery. Besides I answer, although your religion in show of the world, were more ancient than ours, yet that aught to be no disparagement to ours, or advancement to yours: for god afflicteth his church as pleaseth him, & maketh us see that it is like the moon whereunto it is compared, now growing, now full, now waning, we may not measure truth by worldly countenance, but by that rule which never faileth, the word of God, and if our faith be that which there is taught & warranted, the you have heard which is the old true Catholic faith indeed and therefore to be received, held and defended, though for a thousand years the Lord hath made it a stranger in this or that place to punish thereby the sins of a kingdom or country. Vetus consuetudo non praeiudicat veritate, Old custom doth not prejudice the truth: saith good S. Austen, Nec dici debet, 
●ug. De Civit. l. 10. c. 32.  quare modò? quare sero? quoniam mittentis consilium non est humavo ingenio penitrabile: Neither may we say, why cometh it now? (Good Mother mark it) why cometh it so late? for the council of God that sent it is unsearchable to the wisdom of man. Thus speak the Papists in these days: where was your religion before Luther? where hath it been this many hundred years? had God no Church till now? etc. But S. Austen telleth them they speak not well, they ought not to say so: for God's council is known to himself, and we cannot reach unto it. Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine, nec quo die, sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit: quodenim verum est, serum non est. The authority of religion must be weighed by god not by time, & we must consider not upon what day, but what thing we began to worship, the thing that is true is never to late. The jesuits tell us wonders of their converting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith, and would they like that those nations should say where hath this religion been all this while? would they not say as Arnobius saith, that which is true should ever be welcome, 
Arnob. co●● Gen●●  how long soever the time of darkness hath been? Why do they then teach any to stand upon such questions against the Gospel now preached? Our Saviour saith, If I speak the truth why do you not believe me? and that is the good issue indeed to consider the matter whether it be true or no: which is ever found by the weight of the sanctuary, the word of God. Certainly we teach no false religion but offer the truth for issue, praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned, it may be entertained, and so much the more heartily, by how much she hath been long from home. For so we deal with our friends, and do not utterly deny them if they have been long away. Certainly we have planted no new religion, but renewed the old (I mean in respect of certain points corrupted by your men) that was undoubtedly founded and used by the Apostles of Christ, and other holy fathers in the primitive Church, & of this long late time by mean of the multitude of Romish traditions and vanities hath been drowned with traditions & fantasies though painted with colour of antiquity and continuance, yet are new, vain, and nought.  M. 
I cannot deny son, but it is true that you say, there may be vetustas erroris, an antiquity of error (for you know I have some latin, not yet forgotten) and ●here may be a late beginning of truth in some particular place, but it followeth not that either the error is truth because it hath been continued long, or the truth error because in that place it was received but lately: I like not this kind of reasoning whosoever useth it, for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience.  S. 
Good mother, I know well you understand the latin tongue, and therefore have I repeated many testimonies in latin, to give you your due praise, this ability being not ordinary in women. And what you say, I thank God heartily for, praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason, and so say: Popery hath been in england so long, therefore it is truth: and the gospel was revived but of late, therefore it is error, heresy, apostasy, and what not? Surely mother you have touched the quick, such arguing is lose and stayeth not the conscience, it followeth not, but is very childish. Men may be called at the eleventh hour, & yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first, and as fully shall be regarded, if they come then. The Lord may do with his own as pleaseth him.  M. 
Yea but what say you son to our baptism? for that is a matter of moment: we were all baptized into the Romish faith, and vowed at the font to continue in the same. How then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man?  

In what fait● baptised.  S. Dear mother, here first I wish a lattice window in my breast, that the joy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent, & I hope, profitable, might appear unto you: for they lead us as it were by the hand to the consideration of those things which may fully satisfy any Christian heart. And who can tell what the Lord of mercy will do, who willeth not he death of a sinner, but would have all men saved & come to the knowledge of the truth. The Lord jesus Christ, who is the true shepherd samp; bishop of our souls, give a blessing to our conference. Then to your doubt so well and to so good purpose moved I answer thus: God forbidden that either all or any of us had been baptised into the Romish faith. You are deceived and those cursed charmers that whisper such things to God's people, and cast such stumbling blocks before their eyes to turn them out of the right way, shall answer the Lord for so doing. You are taught and told that all those who were baptized in those times when popery was received by the realm of England were baptised into the Romish faith, which is not so: wherein appeared the great mercy and goodness of God in preserving the Sacrament of entrance and admission into God's Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it, even in the greatest darkness and authority of popery. This therefore I pray you understand that we were all baptised in the time of popery into the same faith which now we hold, and baptise children in, that is, into the faith of the 12. articles; for thus said the priest then in latin, Credis in deum patrem, etc. as the minister doth now in English, Dost thou believe in God the father almighty etc. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child, Credo, as we do now answer, All this I steadfastly believe. Then said the priest in latin again, as the minister do●h now in english, wil● thou be baptised in this faith? they answered then for the child, volo, we now, that is my desire. Then took the p●●●st water and said in la●in, Ego baptizo te in nomine ●atris, etc. we say the same in eng●●●, I baptise thee in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost. And this being the substance of baptism, see how the Lord preserved it even then pure and holy, and all one was baptism then and now concerning substance. Wilt thou be baptised in this faith, was not meant of the error of the time, but of this faith now rehearsed contained in the 12. articles, which, except than it was some other because it was latin, and now is said in English, we see plainly they were then baptised in the same faith with us, and that was a right true Catholic faith, and not the Romish errors, that then ruled and were received of the state. Our godfathers also holding the same faith, to wit, of the twelve articles, and we being christened in the faith of our godfathers & godmothers, so long as we hold and continue in this our creed, we continue in the same faith: if our godfathers and godmothers deceived by the time, held any other points in deed and truth not agreeing with these 12. articles, we answer that the sacrament of our baptism doth not bind us in all points to the opinions of them who baptized us, but in the faith of him in whose name we were baptized, and to the doctrine of the 12. articles then propounded unto us: for, as if a man were christened of an heretic, the baptism notwithstanding were good, and the party baptized not bound to hold that heresy: so if our godfathers o● fathers which christened us were taught any thing not consonant to Christian doctrine, neither is our baptism worse for that, nor we bond to follow them in all points, especially being carried away unwittingly by subtle deceivers from the truth. Thus good mother, is your doubt truly answered, and your heart, I trust, assured, that by receiving this faith now established through her majesties most blessed hand in England, you shall not departed from your vow made at the some, but keep it, nor serve from your faith wherein you were baptised, and which your godfathers and godmothers held, but cleave fast unto it to God's great glory, and your own soul's health.  M. 
Truly son, you have more satisfied me, than I thought in this matter any man living could have done. And I see there is great mistaking in many matters for want of love one to endure talk with another. Whilst I live therefore, I will never refuse conference, as I have done: and I wish with all mine heart that others whom I know would do the like.  S. 
Yea mother but the enemy knowing the good hereof, and what a fall his kingdom may thus take, laboureth to stop that willingness in men and women trained to their errors, by taking oaths of them not to do it, & threatening all manner of danger to them if they do it; and you would bless yourself to hear what gross praises they utter of ignorance and simple obedience without ground or reason, saying it belongeth no more to you or any other to ask a reason of their teachings, than it doth to the horse to know why his master turneth his head this way or that.  M. 
Mary God forbid. It is but a slander I hope, as we are to light of belief on both sides.  S. 
Truly Mother, no slander, nor mean man's doctrine, but a great Cardinal of Rome, although in this grossly carnal, the Cardinal Cusanus. The place is known and cannot be denied. Excitationum, lib. 6. pag. 547. I shall show you his words if I can borrow the book.  M 
There is a story as I remember in the old testament of one that would condition to have their right eyes, if he made peace with them. Surely this is to take our right eyes from us, not to suffer us to use reason, and to ask for a satisfaction where we doubt.  
True it is, Mother; It was Naash the Ammonite that so answered the men of jabesh Gilead: 
1. Sam. c. 11.2.  and you most rightly apply it: full easy was it to rule and over rule, to mock and abuse the strong Samson, when once they had put out both his eyes. To tell us that ignorance is the mother of devotion, when the Council saith it is the mother of error: to tell us, that pearls may not be cast before swine, the people may not have the scriptures in english, when it is spoken to all, 
joh. 5.  Search the scriptures: to tell us we will become heretics, if we meddle with the scriptures, when Christ saith you err because you know not the scriptures: surely this is not to wish us to see, but to wish & endeavour both to make and keep us blind But I trust the god of all mercy and goodness, will both give sight, and keep sight in despite of all their fetching policies.  M. 
To return then where we left, you say our fathers held the faith of the 12. articles, and were baptised in the same as we also are, so that we forsake not their faith, or the faith of our baptism, if we embrace the gospel now preached, because in nothing it is contrary to these articles: notwithstanding you say they were happily touched with some errors of the time. I pray you therefore what shall we say of them? were they damned or saved: if they were damned all, why may not we do as they did, and hope of like mercy, god being the same still, and as rich in goodness and grace, as ever.  S. 
Your question containeth two points, one of the salvation or damnation of our fathers, another of the imitation of them. 
what is beco● of our father  In both which I shall endeavour to give you a true answer. And touching the first I say, we ought not to sit in judgement upon our fathers, for God was able to preserve them even in that dark time wherein they lived, as he preserved the bush in the midst of the flame, Daniel in the lions den, the three children in the furnace, and the Israelites in the red sea: for all these were in man's eye subject to danger, and yet by a powerful hand of an omnipotent god saved. And by the manifold graces of god vouchsafed unro our fathers, we may comfortably hope that almighty God was willing also to preserve them unto an everlasting inheritance and did that which he was able to do unto them: for they were good men and good women in their times, charitable and merciful, just and true in their dealings, their honest word was better than many a man's bond, now: they brought up their children in honest labour, not in idleness and vanity: they were given to hospitality, they hated pride & loved plainness, they loved the Church & went duly unto it: in a word, as one saith of them, though they had, minùs scientiae, less knowledge, yet they had plus conscientiae, more conscience. wherefore that god that thus wrought in them by his guiding grace, I may well and cheerfully hope was further also good unto them, and had mercy upon them, pulling them out of the fire, as S. Jude saith: yea I have heard of some that in those dark times delivered to their children some little treatises of Wickleff, and bad them keep them secret and yet read them and mark them, which argued a touch in their hearts more than the world saw, or they had strength and boldness publicly to make show of. One mother I could name to you, that albeit she did as the time than was, yet had she an old Psalter in english, and before her children, being young would often read on it, giving them admonition in divers points, according to her motherly care, and by name when she came to those words, They have eyes and see not, feet have they and go not, hands and handle not, noses and smell not, neither is there any breath in their mouths: cursed are all they that make them, and so are all they that put their trust in them. Mark children (would she say) what those Images you see in the Churches be: they cannot see, go, handle, or smell, they have no life, and therefore we may not worship or trust in them, they are cursed that make them as you hear, and no doubt but there will come a time when they will be taken away. By which we plainly see there was more in many of our good forefathers (for do you think god was the god only of this good woman?) more I say then the course of time yielded them, and therefore great testimonies that god saved them even in the furnace and in the lions den, that is, in the dark time, and time of danger. Therefore far be it from us to judge of them otherwise then well. They live with the Lord God I most comfortably hope.  M. 
This reverent conceit of your elders son, I trust is a sign of God's grace in you, and your hope is grounded upon good presumptions. But why then may not we now follow their course as I said, & hope of like mercy also with them.  

why we may not imitate ●●r forefathers  S. Dear mother, let not me answer you, but hear and weigh with yourself what S. Cyprian that learned and holy father answereth, whose words are these: (I know you understand them:) Ignosci potuit simpliciter erranti, post inspirationem verò & revelationem factam, qui in eo quo erraverat, perseverat sine veniâ ignorantiae peccat, praesumptione enim at que obstinatione superatur.  M. 
Me thinks I understand this sentence to be thus much in english; To one that of simplicity erreth, pardon may be given: but who so after knowledge revealed and graciously offered, continueth in his error, that man or that woman sinneth without hope of pardon for their ignorance, for he or she is wholly carried away with presumption and obstinacy. Which sentence if it be that godly fathers, surely it ought to be well weighed of all that mean not to be so overcome. And for my part I do think and will think of it.  S. 
Surely mother they are his very words, and, for the sense, well translated by you. And blessed be God for your good taking of these grave speeches of great lights and worthy teachers in their times. The words are in his 62. epistle, as I shall show you when I come to the book. And since my words find comfortable favour with you, let me, I pray; further show you how Satan hath always used to deceive men by these means, and how God hath given council to the contrary, Cresconius the heretic said to S. Augustin, Our fathers received this of their fathers before them. And S. Augustin answered him, sed errantes ab errantibus, but them men deceived, received it of men that were deceived before them. Even as the jews at this day received of their fathers, and their fathers likewise received it before them of their fathers, and so from father to father since the suffering of Christ, which is now almost 1567. years, that Christ did not rise again, but that his disciples came whilst the watchmen slept, & stole his body away. Now is this wicked falsehood true, because by tradition from father to son it hath been continued and taught amongst the jew for so many years? god forbidden. We believe the contrary as an article of our faith: and therefore you see this argument from our forefathers is dangerous and may carry us into great errors if we take not heed. This notable answer of S. Augustin and this worthy example would never be forgotten. Another great heretic called Eutiches, that denied the humanity of our Saviour, being convented for it in the Council of Chalcedon, fled likewise to this defence and cried, 
●ct. 1.  Sic à progenitoribus meis accipiens credidi in hac fide genitus sum & consecratus deo, & inea opto mori: this faith I have received from my ancestors and forefathers: in this faith I was borne and baptised, and in this faith I desire to die. And yet that faith an horrible heresy as you have heard, denying that jesus Christ was man. Auxentius the Arrian heretic made this his refuge, and told them that sought his reformation, Quemadmodem ab infantiâ doctus sum, ita crediat & credo, Even as from mine infancy I have been taught so I have believed and do believe. S. Hilary reporteth thus of him. By which examples we plainly see what an old gin of Satan this is to entangle us with the doings of our forefathers, and to make us believe that the following of them in all things is a praise for us, and that we ought not in any thing to slip away from them. But it is not so. God hath otherwise taught us, ancient fathers have otherwise preached and written: and the matter of our eternal salvation is weighty. We must beware, unto the former examples add, that of the jews so notable in the prophet, where being rebuked of the prophet jeremy for their Idolatry (God so commanding him) they flatly answered as these heretics before named, and as they of the Romish Church still daily answer The word which thou hast spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not hear it of thee but as our forefathers have done, our kings and our princes in the city ot judah, so will we do, even whatsoever goeth out of our own mouth, as to burn incense to the Queen of heaven, and to power out drink offerings unto her: for than had we plenty of victuals, and were well and felt no evil: but since we left of to burn incense to the Queen of heaven, and to power out drink offerings unto her: we have scarcenesss of all things, and have been consumed by the sword and famine etc. I doubt not mother, but you mark this place well, for indeed it is a very notable and pregnant example to this end we now speak of, and the words are as it we heard all the Romish Catholics speak together, so jump they with them. And so like is Satan to himself in his tricks and devices to deceive God's people. But now what saith God? Doth be like of this answer and of this heady and unadvised following of their ancestors. No, No, neither ever will he like of it to the worlds end. Read I beseech you the chapter yourself, and you shall see the fierce wrath of the Lord against them for this answer, and for this doing. He sweareth by his great name (a dreadful punishment) that he will not vouchsafe to have his name any more mentioned by them: but he will watch over them for evil and not for good, till they all be consumed by the sword and by the famine with an utter destruction. This is the liking that God hath of following others before us, and of alleging their examples without due care and consideration of their doings, whether they were answerable to God's word the rule of his liking and pleasure yea or no. By his Prophet Ezechiel again he instructeth us of his pleasure in this matter, 
●. 20. v. 18.  and delivereth it for his absolute commandment. In statutis patrum nolite ambulare, walk ye not in the ordinances of your fathers, neither observe their manners: meaning, rashly, unadvisedly, hand over head, without examination, how these ordinances and manners pleased God. For so saith the prophet, you may defile yourselves either with Idols, 
● .19.  or some other thing displeasing to God. But if you will ever be sure and safe, follow the true rule and the only right way. I am the Lord your God, walk in my statutes, & keep my commandments etc. Which sound counsel the godly father had his eye upon, when he said, Non debemus attendere quid aliquis ante nos faciendum putaverit, sedquid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit, we may not regard what some before us thought meet to be done, but what he who was before all men jesus Christ our dear Saviour did▪ that that is our rule in whatsoever we are to imitate him. I cannot omit to remember Lactantius his words in this matter, Deorum cultores libentèr errant, & stultitiae favent suae, à quibus sirationem requiras per suasionis eius, 
Institut. l. 5. ●  nulla possunt reddere, sed ad maiorum judicia confugiunt, quòd illi sapientes fuerint. The worshippers of many Gods (saith he) do willingly err, and favour their own folly: of whom if you ask a reason of their persuasion and opinion, they can give none, but strait fly to the judgement of their forefathers, saying they were wise men etc. And is not this the very answer of Romish Catholics at this day? Can they give any reason a number of them but even this now mentioned of heretics and idolaters? I was borne and baptised in this faith, and mine own father and mother charged me upon their blessing, to be of this opinion etc. they were as wise men and women as we and such like. But how good these answers be, you see, if you either regard scripture, or fathers, to be taught by them. Lactantius nippeth this folly we see by his words and ever it shall be derided. Our souls cost more than that should pin them on any men's sleeves, were they never so near or dear unto us. Clemens Alexand hath the like good speech. Alii dicunt, in pium est si non colamus ea quae nobis tradita sunt à patribus nostris, & religionem praevaricamur à matoribus datam. Hac ratione sicuius pater latro fuerit, aut sicuius, leno, à patribus sibi traditam consuetudinem mutare no debet, nec ad meliorem viam à paternis erroribus revocari, Others say it is a great wickedness, if we worship not those things which are by our forefathers delivered unto us, and we betray the religion of our fathers: but by this reason if any man's father were a thief or a bawd, he ought not to change the custom derived from his father nor be reduced to a better way from his father's error. Thus derideth he again this fond kind of argument. My father did so, and so his father before him again, therefore I will do so anâ will not be persuaded. Yea assuredly thus have ever all truly instructed derided it. And it never was, nor never shall be a fit answer for a child of God. When I think of this matter sometimes I make a comparison betwixt the body and the soul, and I ask of a Romish Catholic, whether if his father and divers others of his ancestors had a bodily disease whereof they died for want of skill to cure it, he now having the same successively after them, and the cure well known, would yet wilfully die of his infirmity as his forefathers did, rather than serve from the example and be cured; He will answer no. And yet in the matter of the soul which is far above the body hath not grace to consider what an absurd answer it is to allege his father, unless he know by the rule of god's word, that his father indeed was to be followed. So you see (dear mother) both your questions answered, and how it is no new matter but a very ancient subtlety to entangle men and women's minds with the examples of their forefathers, because naturally we all reverence and love those of whom we are descended. But it is no right way: For we both may and ought sometimes to dissent from them, and yet not sit in judgement upon them as though they were damned, God being indeed able to save them as we have heard: neither ought we thereby to take occasion of presumption to condemn the grace offered us, though denied to others, as we ought not to refuse a bodily medicine to save our life, because our fathers know it not. Surely if they had had the light that is vouchsafed us, they would have excelled us, as far as angels excel men.  M. 
I see son gods spirit bloweth where it listeth, and happy is the man and woman whose ear he openneth. To hear is good, and either to stop our ea●e, or to harden our heart with a premeditate opinion is most dangerous: for as the Apostle persuadeth to hospitality, because so men have received angels into their houses: so by hearing is god received who made the angels, and by refusing to hear the door is shut upon him most dangerously and be excluded.  S. 
O dear Mother give your own flesh and blood leave with knees of heart bowed before the Lord to rejoice for this your holy speech, to praise the name of the most high, whose mercy hath neither bottom nor measure, and to beseech him for his sweet sons sake to go forward in mercy and pity towards his deceived children, that they may see their salvation in jesus Christ, embrace the truth and be saved.  M. 
To this your prayer son, I say with all mine heart, amen. But yet I have not done with you. I have heard some say, that if this way that you so dislike, to follow the church of Rome, and to believe as we are taught by the successors of Peter, were to go astray, why hath it not been noted so till now of late years. Can any of you tell where or under what Pope or Emperor papistry first began, and what Churches then complained of it.  S. 
Good Mother your questions still are to good purpose; 
who firsts 〈◊〉 Rome to ●●cline, & 〈◊〉.  for this is an high point with divers popish writers, and these think they have plunged us, when they have made this demand. But I am now comforted with assurance of your readiness to hear what on our side is answered, which is thus: That if these false persuaders think (as appeareth by this question they do) that the Church standing possessed of a true religion, there cannot arise a false, but that some either many or few must rebuke it; it is not so in such errors as creep in at the beginning by hypocrisy, & by a great show of holiness, as popery did, but only in gross and apparent errors it is so. Now popery is called of the Apostle, a ministery, and why? because it is not open to every eye, but under a colour and cloak of holiness so conveyeth itself into men's hearts, and into the world, that it is not observed and noted of many, and scarce by any. Again, as a building maketh no show till it be above the ground, so this synagogue for a time was not noted, when yet the work men laboured hard to raise it and build it. Thirdly, we are admonished and told even of this error, that so sly, so colourable and so hypocritical it should be, as the very elect thereby, if it were possible, should be deceived. Fourthly in reason and experience we see and know that tars in the corn are not noted till they be come up, the grass is not seen growing, but when it is grown. And therefore to set this down that no false religion, no error of heresy may creep into the church, but at the very first it must be noted of some, is not true, & especially of this error of popery: for it entered not all at once, but by degrees in divers ages, and these degrees so small that they they could not more be discerned then the grass growing. The hypocritical show of devotion and good intent letted greatly: the wolf in a sheeps skin may deceive. Again it is well known that these primitive times were greatly exercised with open, gross, and apparent heresies, seeking the overthrow of the faith directly & manifestly, as of Ebion, Ce●inthus, Arrius, and others divers, of the defenders whereof were of great gifts, and so their doings were dangerous: upon which the father's eyes were bend, that it was not possible to observe little ones creeping in so colourably as I have said, and so hypocritically. If any did observe somewhat then, yet never thought they that such small declinings would grow to such an issue as now we see, and therefore were less careful to write of them; and if they did write, so many and so great have been the losses of books since that time by persecutions and troubles, 
That the bishops of Rome did use to bur● all books crossing their errors, vide Concil. Rom. Concil. Constant. ses●. 8. C●cil. Trident. Bellar. Tom 1. contr. 5. l. 3. de laicis, c. 20.  and sundry confusions in the world, that well they might perish and be lost Moreover the bishops of Rome being in credit with the Emperors had ever opportunity to suppress, deface, and alter writings, rolls, and records against them, as they thought good, whose consciences could brook such dealings well enough, as we see by experience in the council of Nice falsified by them to their perpetual shame. Finally the credit of divers good bishops of Rome at the first, did so stick in the minds of men, that for their sakes the rest a great while after were the better thought of and not suspected as they deserved, who indeed succeeded in place, but not in virtue and piety.  M. 
Son these be good reasons I confess, why the beginning might not be so well marked: but yet if it had been so false a religion as now is said, it could not but have been marked of some.  S. 
Good mother if what I have said be well weighed, it doth fully prove what I undertake, namely, that error may creep in under colour of devotion by small degrees, in the time of greater gross heresies and not be noted for a time. But if so much may not suffice, we answer further to your question, that the mystery of Papistry being antichristianity, began even in the Apostles times Claudius being the Emperor of Rome, and so continued increasing until the time of Sigismond, who procured the council of Constance, in which the lay people were rob of the cup. So have you the Emperor under whom it began. But for the pope we use to crave pardon id we cannot show him certainly, because then there were three pope's, & no man could tell which was the right, but every man spoke as he was affected to one of them. And for complaints against it the stories make it well known, that in the time of Severus Emperor, Victor bishop of Rome bewraying an ambitious desire of superiority over other bishops, 
Euseb. l. 5. c. 25  Irenaeus the ancient father, Bishop then of Lions, Polycrates, and many others reproved him. Afterward in the days of Theodosius, Honorius, and Arcadius, the bishops of Rome Innocentius, Bonifacius, Sozimus, Anastasius, and Celestine usurping more openly & shamefully forging the decree of the Nicene council were reproved and complained of by the bishops of Africa in open council, the forgery detected, and decrees made that none in Africa should appeal to any bishops over the sea, and that the bishop of the first ●ea should not be called prince of priests, or by any such name of pride, but only bishop of the first sea. After this again when john of Constantinople in the days of Mauritius usurped the title of universal bishop, Gregory the bishop of Rome reproveth it himself, and with such vehemency of words rattleth him up for it, as no more can be said against that point of popery. Then was Mauritius cruelly murdered by his servant Phocas, and the Empire given to Phocas, under whom Bonifacius of Rome got that proud title. But the Church of Ravenna with others complained of such pride, and would not be subject for many years. Many more have cried out as they could and noted this falling away from truth and piety to pride and antichristianity. But good Mother, ponder with yourself how needles this is to be stood upon, where there is evidence of fault and falsehood. Do we not account it folly when we see tars in the field, to deny they be tars, unless we know who sowed them, what day and hour etc. If an house be on fire, we seek to quench it, and stand not to ask who set it one fire. A thief taken with the manner is punished. Popery compared with the doctrine of the Apostles appeareth to be tars, and we offer that issue if we prove it, what though we know not when the tars were cast into the good field? Shall not a white head be taken so to be unless the precise beginning of white hairs be known? A chink in a wall is spied and mended, but the beginning usually unknown. When the Scribes and pharisees had corrupted religion, what books do we read to be written against them? How able were joseph, Simeon, Marie, Anna, etc. to confute them? falsehood is falsehood though no man write against it. And therefore let the doctrine of popery he sifted whether it be sound or no, and the beginning let go, of which yet you see what I have said.  M. 
Son, you have said much, and still I wish that one of us would hear another more than we do. I see, I see it is profitable: god hath commanded means, and liketh means.  S. 
Mother, many a good man and woman that now liveth in ignorance would hear and read, but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers under the pain of excommunication not to do it, nor to confer with any. Yea they are often snared with an oath not to do it: and all to keep them in darkness, because the hooded hawk is quietest, and Samson when his eyes be out may be mocked and used at will: but the Lord is able to touch his people's hearts to think of their craft, and cast from them such deceitful works which I beseech him to do even with speed. For the impiety and boldness of these wicked charmers is great, and worthily reproved by S. Hierome, who saith, of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritatem, 
in Esai. l. 9 c. 3.  ut sive dextra docerent sive sinistra, id est: sive bona sive malanolint discipulos ratione discutere, sed se praecessores sequi, some did take such authority upon them, that whether they taught right or wrong, good or bad, they would not have their auditors to examine it, but to follow them.  M. 
Yea but it is a great matter son, in our eyes, that the Church of Rome hath always been a visible state maintaining that doctrine, visible I say and still appearing and known, whereas your church before Luther's time, either was not at all, or was hid, as some say, and your doctrine not received by public authority.  S. 
But good mother, you know truth is truth although the whole world were set against it. And therefore still I wish your eye bent not upon the favour of the world, for that is commonly against the good and for the bad, but upon the face of almighty God, his good pleasure, and the rule thereof his word. And then for answer to this objected, which seemeth so strong a bulwark in the judgement of many Papists: 
●●e & ● church 〈◊〉 nor always ●●sible.  first I say, that the true church is not always visible in the world as they take visible, that is, glorious in credit, and favour, supported by authority of worldly powers, so that all people may know whether to resort unto it. For the Church is either Catholic 1. universal or particular. The Catholic or universal church cannot be seen, and therefore we believe it as an article of our faith. Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam, 
Symb. Apost.  I believe that there is an holy Catholic Church, not as some would have it, I give credit to the church and believe what soever it teacheth, for than it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam. 
Sentent. l. 3. distinct. 2●  There is great difference saith P. Lombard following S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum, Credere Deo, and Creaere in Deum: the first is to believe that there is a God, the second to give credence unto God, and to believe all that t●u which he speaketh, the third, to rely upon god, and to put our confidence in him for protection and blessing. So doubtless may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam, Credere Ecclesiae Caetholicae, and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam: the first is to be assuredly persuaded and to believe that there is a Catholic Church, which is the meaning of the article, as the very phrase of speech showeth, and the other articles following, Credo communionem Sanctorum, I believe that there is a communion of Saints, Credo remissionem peccatorum, I believe that there is a remission of sins, Credo carnis resurrectionem, I believe that there is a resurrection of the flesh, etc. The second, Credere Ecclesiae catholicae, is to give credit unto the Catholic Church, and to embrace as truth whatsoever the Church shall propound unto us, which can not be the sense of the article, except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Eccslesiam, and Credere Ecclesiae, so accurately distinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin, and make the words of men equal with God's word. The third, Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam, is wholly to depend upon the Catholic Church, which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the words and great blasphemy to God. Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience, good mother, of this article, and the true meaning of it in general, because the mistaking thereof hath misled some into error. Now to return seeing we believe the universal or Catholic Church, it followeth that it can not be seen. 
●eb. 11.1.  For faith, as the Apostle writeth, is the ground of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Not seen I say again and entreat you to mark the word. And that a particular Church is not always seen, the story of Elias proveth pregnantly, who could not see one, and therefore was weary of his life, 
●ing. 19.18.  whereas God had kept unto himself, even then when he complained and in that place where he lived, yea in the midst of that people of whom he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees unto Ball. What may we think of these 7000. among the ten trikes of Israel? were they not God's people worshipping him in spirit and in truth? or is not the number sufficiet to make a church? Surely the number might well make seven glorious particular Churches, 
Rom. 1●.  and the Apostle saith of them, first that God had kept them to himself, secondly that they were his people, thirdly that he knew them before, to wit, in his eternal council, and almighty God himself to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloved, and promised his protection unto them, that they should be safely kept. Reasons, 
1. Reg. c. 19. 1●.17. & 18.  I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prove that God had his church in that place, and at that self same time, when & where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellow members to worship God with him. O if so many so dear unto god at one time in one country worshipping the true God, truly, by the testimony of God himself, were hid from so great a Prophet, why may we not think that in the many mighty nations of Christendom there have indeed been many thousands more belonging to God than the eye of any man could discern. S. Augustin saith, Aliquando in sola domo Noah Ecclesia erat, 
●●l. 128.  in solo Lot & domo eius Ecclesia erat, in solo Enoch Ecclesia erat, Sometimes the Church was only in Noah his house, sometime in Abraham alone, sometime in Lot alone and his house, sometime only in Enoch. Therefore neither a particular church is ever so visible, as papists would make it, when it lieth hidden sometimes in one house, sometimes in one man. Assuredly S. Augustin was far from that opinion when he wrote thus: 
●nit. Eccl. c3. c. 16. asch. c. 14.  Look therefore how Christ was known when he was upon earth, so is his Church, namely by the word, not by the outward Pomp and show. She cannot be hid from those that still diligently seek her in the scriptures, where only, I say again, the certain knowledge of her is to be found. 
●al. 10.  Nevertheless she is compared by S. Augustin and many more, to the moon, which is often hid, and he acknowledgeth that she may be so secret that the members know not one another. Persecutions have been so great, that the world saw not for a long time together such an outward show, 
●●g. de. bap●●. count Do●. l. 6. c. 4.  as Popery speaketh of. Dioclesian and Maximinian boasted that they had utterly abolished the superstition of Christ (as they call it) and name of Christians. The like devilish boasting made Nero in his time, where was then this visible face of the Church so glorious? that notable place of the Apostle, what shall we say to it? They were tried by mockings, 
Heb. 11.36. etc.  and scourge, yea moreover by bonds and imprisonment, they were stoned, they were hewn a sunder, they were tempted, they were slain with the sword, they wandered up and down in sheep skins, and in goat skins, being destitute, afflicted and tormented: whom the world was not worthy of, they wandered in wildernesses and mountains and dens, & caves of the earth. Were not these the children of God? were not these the Church? what outward pomp had these men in the world, to move others led by such inducements to resort unto them? O folly therefore to dream of any such thing! How differeth it from that error of the disciples, expecting an earthly kingdom of their master, and worldly preferments for themselves That vision of the woman forced to fly into the wilderness to avoid the rage of antichrist, 
Apoc. 1●.  doth it not convince my conscience, that the Church is hid sometimes from men's eyes! How can that Church be said to fly into the wilderness, which hath always a visible face, a visible place a visible grace and glory, a great company of favourers, might, power, authority, etc. were not Christ and his followers on earth the Church? had they any such show? Nay they were poor, base, and not regarded in comparison of the Scribes, Pharisees, high priests, and that rabble. You shall be hated of all men for my sake, &c: saith our Saviour of his Church: and is this to be visible ever in the world in manner and form now often mentioned? who seethe not that it is far from it. And thus I hope I have sufficiently cleared this first point, that the Church is not always visible, as they mean visible, which may suffice for answer to this vain objection of theirs, as utterly overthrowing the ground thereof: yet I answer further first to their Church, that no Romish Catholic living (and I pray you consider well what I say) shall ever be able to prove that there was any visible Church for five or six hundred years after Christ, which maintained all or the chief points of popery, wherein they differ from us. Then for our Church we truly affirm that it was long before Luther, even in the primitive Church. For we stand upon this, that we embrace and profess only that doctrine which springeth as the water of life out of the sanctuary, that is, out of the writings of the prophets and Apostles, and therefore that our Church doth not differ save that in degree of excellency from those famous churches planted and watered by the Apostles themselves; which shall yet more manifestly appear by the doctrine itself duly considered, the main points whereof, as hath been already touched in another place, are these, 1. Concerning the moral law of God comprised in ten precepts, that it is the perfect rule of righteousness, wherein we see as in a Crystal glass, both what we should do, and what we do not, and how far short we are of that obedience which is required at our hands by god. 2. The doctrine of repentance, that finding of ourselves transgressors of Gods divine law, and guilty of his wrath, we should in due humility and contrition of heart throw down ourselves at the throne of his grace, and in the anguish of our souls confess our iniquities and rebellions against ourselves, and every man say with the poor Publican, God be merciful to me a sinner. 3. The doctrine of faith, that traveling thus and groaning under the burden of our sins, we should go unto our Saviour for ease, comfort, and refreshing, that is, that we should steadfastly believe that he died for our sins and rose again for our justification and eternal salvation. 
●om. 4.  4. the doctrine of good works and a godly life, that we ought ever to be careful to abound in good works and have our conversation in heaven. 5. The doctrine of prayer that we should in all our necessities call upon God in the name of his son, as our blessed Saviour hath taught us in the Gospel: 
●●t. 3. ●al. 3.  and especially that we should frequent the house of God, by public prayer to speak unto him, and by his word to hear him speak unto us for instruction. 6. The doctrine of the Sacraments, Baptism and the Lords supper. 7. Lastly, the twelve articles of our creed, I believe in God etc. These are the pillars and foundation of our religion, yea the very soul and life of our Church, and all of them founded & grounded upon the rock jesus Christ, and his sacred word, and without controversy the very essence and being of all Churches that have been ever or shall be to the end of the world. Wherefore when our adversaries ask us (as they do very often) where was your church before Luther, we may well answer, as our Saviour did in the Gospel by another question, videlicet, These points of doctrine before mentioned were they before Luther's time or no? If they will answer us to this, we will answer them, yea they shall be forced to answer themselves, that this doctrine is of god and from heaven, and that there never wanted some to profess it publicly in all parts or the most of Christendom, since the happy time of our blessed Saviour: and therefore that our Church hath always been a visible state though not so stately as they boast of theirs to their own shame, if Saint Augustin may be judge, who calleth Rome in regard of this pomp and pride the Western Babylon, the second Babylon, another Babylon, 
de cinit. d 16. c. 17. l. 1 22.27  the daughter of the former Babylon the earthly city. Yet for their further satisfaction I further ask of them: do not they themselves say they believe all these former points? do they not stand upon it that they have ever so professed? Is there any thing in there religion of more moment and weight or any other part of doctrine besides these, absolutely necessary to salvation? why then do they ask us where and by whom this religion of ours was professed before Luther's time? May we not well and charitably affirm that it was professed in France. Spain, and Italy: yea in Rome ever since first Rome embraced the gospel preached by the Apostles? Doubtless I am persuaded that many thousands even now in these countries where the pope's keys prevail, do truly hold the 12. articles of the Apostles creed and Athanasius his creed, which he calleth the Catholic faith, with all the other points of doctrine set down before, which if they do, holding the foundation, though they build upon it wood, hay, 
〈◊〉 3.  or stubble, that is some erroneous doctrine, yet they are the true Church of God and shallbe saved. A pearl, is a pearl, though in an heap of dust, wine is wine though mingled with water, and wheat is wheat, though covered with much chaff: and is not the mystery of godliness whereof Paul speaketh, god manifested in the flesh, 
〈◊〉 3.  justified in the spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory, still the mystery of godliness, and that truth and sure foundation whereon the house of god is builded, though matter unsuitable unto it be laid upon it? yes verily. And therefore seeing the Church of Rome hath ever held the mystery of godliness though mingled with many dregs of men's inventions, I doubt not but God hath ever had a people amongst them and a true Church more than 7000. which have not bowed the knee unto Baal. what we are to think of their leaders and teachers which indeed have corrupted this doctrine with their own leaven, and endeavoured by all means to shut up and obscure this mystery, is another question, especially for those that have done it wilfully and maliciously, and died in that malice. But of the rest thus we judge and thus we answer, that so many as truly hold and profess all the former articles of doctrine (as I assure myself many do) are fellow members with us in the same mysticalll body whereof Christ is the head. And therefore our church hath ever been in theirs, though not ever so manifest to the eye of the world as it was for the space of the first five hundred years. Me thinks this answer should well content them and fully satisfy them, being so charitable towards them. But to give them an answer of their own and by themselves, to let them see that the true Church is not always so visible as they pretend. They know that now in England they have not authority to countenance their religion and Church, and yet they say that they have a Church amongst us, and where they dare well say it, they are bold to say it is a great one, yea the greater part, though I trust they shall never prove it in that number. Why then in persecution and when the Lord punisheth the unthankfulness of men with taking away our public and authorised assemblies, may not we as well have a church holding the true faith of Christ according to his word, as they now a flock cleaving to the Bishop of Rome.  M. 
Rome hath always been called the Mother Church, and they do join with that. 
Rome is not he mother Church.   S. 
How can Rome be the mother church, when she is later than those first churches of Jerusalem, and Antioch? Can a mother be younger than her daughters, or her daughters elder than their mother? The very scriptures teach us that all churches, and even Rome itself have risen out of the Church of Jerusalem. Fou out of Zion shall his law come, and the word from Jerusalem.  M. 
You answer me well that Rome cannot be the mother Church of all, because other churches have been before her. Nevertheless of this Church of England she is rightly the mother, because this land received the faith from her, first by Eleutherius the Pope and martyr, who sent Daminianus and Fugatius to teach it to the Britanes at the request of their king who was then Lucius, and after by Gregory the great, who sent Augustine and Melitus with other holy priests to teach our ancestors the english, who then were planted here and had removed the Britons into an other corner.  S. 
Dear mother all this you are taught and told by them who abuse gods people bought with his precious blood. But it hath been answered truly, that this can not be so. For first Eleuth confesseth in his answer to king Lucius his message, that he had the scriptures, wherein were the laws of God, far more to be regarded then the Roman laws: he praiseth his zeal and telleth him, that out of the scriptures with the advise of his counsel he might draw convenient laws for his kingdom he being in his own land Christ's vicar etc. How then was Eleutherius his first Apostle? Again doth not Nicephorus plainly say in his story, Simon Zelotes doctrinam Evangelij ad occidentalium Oceanum in sulasque Brittanicas perfert. 
Lib. 2. c. 40  Simon Zelotes carried the doctrine of the gospel unto the west Ocean sea and unto the Islands of Britraine. This was before Eleutherius Do not others write that joseph of Arimathea did it? hat. S. Paul in his passage this way into Spain did it, and allege authors for it? Might not the Greeks' do it, or some others, since evidently it appeareth by Eleutherius his own confession, he was not the first? Then for Augustine and the rest do not these plain testimonies of the fathers usually alleged to this end satisfy any man living not way ward, that this land had the faith before him and them. Tertullian lived about the year of our Lord 210. And his words are these. Brittannorum in accessa Romanis loc a subduntur Christo. 
〈◊〉. judaeos.  The countries of Britain which the Romans could never attain unto are now subject to Christ. Origen about the year 212 writeth, 
Ezech. hom.  Terra Brittanniae in religionem Christi consensit. The land of Britain hath yielded to Christ his religion. 
●. Apolog. 2.  Athanasius about the year three hundred thirty four hath the like. Constantine the Emperor maketh mention in his time of Christian Churches in Britain. 
●od. l. 1. c. 10.  This was about the year 330. S. Hilary in his time entituleth his letter, Clericis Tolosanis & provinciarum Britannicarum episcopis. 
L. de Synod.  To the Clergi of Tolosa and to the bishops of Britain. This was about the year 360. S. Chrisostome of his time saith. 
m. quod ●ristus sit de  Et in sulae Britannicae extra hoe mare sitae & in ipso Oceano positae senserunt virt●tem verbi dei. The Islands of Britain being in the very Ocean and far out of this our sea have felt the power of God's word. This he wrote about anno 400. Theodoret saith, Huic fidei consenserunt ou●nes Ecclesiae, quaeque in Hispania sunt, 
Histor. l. 4. c.  quaeque in Britannia. To this faith have agreed all the Churches both of Spain and Britain. What can be more plain and more fully proved if we be not wilful. Now all these fathers and writers lived sundry years before the arrival of Austin the monk and his fellows. Therefore they by no means could be the first planters and publishers of the faith in this land. Gildas writeth that in the time of Tiberius this land was Christian. 
Hist. A●g. l. 2 c. 2.  Beda writeth that in his time and almost a thousand years after Christ Easter was kept here in England after the manner of the East Church in the full moon what day in the week soever it fell on, and not on the sunday as now we do, whereby it is very manifest and probable that the first preachers in this land came more rather out of the East, then from Rome. Therefore by all these proofs and arguments Rome is not the mother Church of England, for it had the truth long before Eleutherius or Austin. I spare to show the bloody cruelty of this Austin (whom the papists make an Apostle) with other his foul vices of pride and disdain, etc. our stories show it: and I may have other occasion hereafter.  M. 
Well son, I will now go no further with you in these points: but I will put a case or two, and tell me your mind. What if a Catholic be sworn to persist in the obedience of the Church of Rome, and not to revolt, how can such an one without plain perjury take another course.  S. 
Indeed this is their devilish practice and policy in these days, to steal the hearts and loyalty of the people from their prince, as Absalon did from his father, but came to a foul end; to creep into houses, and lead captive simple women, 
〈◊〉, 6.  as the Apostle saith, to snare them with oaths and vows and promises, & whatsoever they can devise, 
count Val.  wherein they tread in the steps of the old Valentinian heretics worthily taxed by Tertullian, of whom that learned father saith: Aditum priùs cruciant, they first torment their scholars, at their entrance●ne discipulis quidem proprijs antè committant quàm suos fecerint, they commit not their mysteries and doctrine, no not to their own disciples, before they have made them their own. Habent artificium quo priùs persuadeant quàm edoceant: they have a trick of legerdemain, first to persuade before they teach. Even as now our jesuits and seminary priests when they seek to reconcile any to their mother the Church of Rome, they take them sworn upon the sacrament of the altar, that they shall ever after cleave fast to tha● synagogue, & renounce all our doctrine & church assemblies. And before they have thus made them their own, and fettered their consciences with a vow they do not open their packet of Romish wares unto them. They begin with persuasions and end with instructions. But the truth, saith Tertullian, persuadeth by instruction, instructeth not by persuasion. 
ibidem. Veritas docen● persuadet, non suadendo doc.  And doubtless truth is ever strong and will prevail with as many as God hath ordained to eternal life. The Lord's sheep may stray a time: bu● at last the chief shepherd that leaveth 99 in the wilderness and goeth to seek what is lost, will find them in mercy, and joyfully bring them to his fold, and to the rest that strayed not as they did. Now touching your case, good mother consider well in yourself this one thing; whether any under heaven way lawfully give me an oath, or I lawfully take an oath either to do what God flatly forbiddeth me, or to leave undone what God flatly commandeth me.  M. 
No sure: I am fully resolved of that.  S. 
Then must I consider not only that I have sworn, but to what I have sworn, and if I find that unlawful, you see my oath may not bind me against the Lord. Now we boldly avow, as you have heard, and ever so did we avow, that if any parcel of our christian faith whereunto we persuade be not that which God in his word hath commanded, and forbidden the contrary, we will renounce it. Therefore I must weigh the doctrine as well as my vow or oath, and if the doctrine be true that I have sworn against, and that false which I have sworn to keep, you have confessed that you think this oath wicked and not to be kept.  M. 
Surely, I cannot say otherwise, for my conscience telleth me it is so.  S. 
How then is it that many thus entangled never go about to consider the matter, but altogether stick to their oath, and think with themselves: I have sworn; therefore I may not change.  M. 
I know it to be true: and I see it is a fault: for surely no oath ought to force me either to evil or from good concerning the losing or saving of my soul.  S. 
Your true opinion mother, in this matter, may be confirmed by examples out of god's book. jephtha you know made a rash vow, 
jud. 11. ●.  which is in the nature of an oath, to offer to God what first met him out of his house, when he returned home, and had gotten the victory against his enemies. His own daughter met him first. Did he well to kill her? What if a dog or a swine had met him, being things that God would not abide to be used in sacrifice, should his oath have tied him directly to do that which god abhorred? if not those, them not his child, if obedience be better than sacrifice of things lawful, how much more than sacrifice of such cruelty and unnatural blooddinesse? jephta therefore is condemned and ever shall be for this wicked keeping of his vow. Herod made a promise to his dancing daughter, you know the story: did he well to keep that oath? judge in your conscience how God liked that fact. The ●ext saith, 
Mat. ●●  Herod was sorry when he heard her petition, yet for his oaths sake he sent and beheaded john Baptist in the prison. O bloody oath and sinful keeping of it. His conscience whipped him whilst he lived for it, and made him think when he heard of Christ that john was risen again whom he had beheaded. In the Acts of the Apostles certain jews more than forty men bound themselves with an oath that they would neither eat nor drink till they had slain Paul. 
〈…〉  And must they needs either kill that blessed Apostle, or pine themselves to death by refusing food, because they had sworn? God forbid. I assure myself you like better of the Apostles words, we must obey God rather than men: And god saith thou shalt do no murder. Gehezy in the book of the kings swore that he would follow after Naaman, and take somewhat of him. he kept that unlawful oath, and by the fearful plague that fell upon him you may see and satisfy yourself how it pleased God; David a man worthy following took another course, as we read in his story: when he had sworn to kill Naball, and not to leave a man of his house to look upon a wall, yet meeting with his wife Abigail by the way, and admonished by her of so hard a course, he changed his mind, blessed God that had sent her as a mean to save him from shedding blood, and thought so well of the woman, that after the death of her husband, he married her. Had David said, as deceived souls now a days do, I have sworn, and I must keep mine oath, greatly had he sinned against the Lord to his own hurt. This is an example chronicled up of God in his own book, to be followed of all those that fear him. An oath is ordained of God to end strife being lawfully taken, and to strengthen truth, 
Firma mentu veri●a●●on vinculum iniquitatis,  but in no case to be uniculum iniquitatis, a bond to tie us to iniquity. Most worthily therefore answered Agesilaus, when one said, Thou hast promisea, Yea, if it be just, saith he, otherwise, locutus sum, non promisi, I spoke, but it was no promise, meaning that no promise should be urged beyond right. May we think that he by the light he had, would have stood upon a wicked oath? no no assuredly: Non praestabit fides quod exhibuit infidelitas, Faith may not perform uhat want of faith unlawfully swore and vowed. By the common law (which is ●he Popes own law) who swore in his heat, was to be enjoined penance, because calor iracundiae non excusat à toto, sed à tanto, The heat of anger excuseth not from all fault, but from so great a fault: neither are they to be accounted perjured, who can show impossibility, or impiety in their performance. your heart meant not to swear to evil: it than it prove evil, and so you change, the fault is in the matter not in you.  M. 
What shall such do then?  S. 
Surely choose rather to ask god barrely mercy for a rash and ignorant oath, them by keeping the same to add sin unto sin, yea a far greater to a lesser; for in presumption to offend is the next cousin to the sin against the holy ghost. Beware that saying in the Psalm. 
〈…〉  They encourage themselves in mischief, that is, are bold and hardy to take heart to do evil, after they are told of it and know that it is evil. Remember that in God's law, there was a sacrifice appointed to make an atonement for one that had sworn to do evil. 
●vit. 5. sal. 5●.  A sacrifice also remaineth now, even a troubled spirit, sorrowful for mine unadvised oath, mine unlawful▪ and wicked oath against my God, against my prince, against my country to obey a foreigner, a stranger whom I never saw, never am like to see, against mine own soul's health, and to my endless woe. O Lord, O Lord, a broken & contrite heart thou shalt never despise, and therefore strengthen thy poor creature, to turn unto thee, and rather to lament one sin, than still still to sin, and so by an imagination of constancy to perish eternally for their contumacy.  M. 
Amen, son amen, for sure it is plain that you have said to this point, and sweet is truth when one doth taste it. But the world is so full of prittle prattle when a man turneth that one will be ashamed to hear their speech 〈…〉 some are hindered even thus.  S. 
No question, mother, but Satan useth this amongst other means to keep some back from the truth, 
The pr●●● i● prattle of the world keep some from t●● truth.  & it is a known weakness in our nature to shrink at the talk of men. But the proverb is old, a wonder lasteth but 9 nights: folly will die, and truth get strength: god is in this change, and it cannot do ill. 
Ang. de. 〈◊〉 5. c. 1●.  To have it verified of us which Christ spoke of his enemies, is a fearful thing, namely, that they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God The blessed Apostle saith, 
joh. 1●. ●●  Go I about to please men? surely If I should do so, I were not the servant of Christ. And why? Our Saviour Christ's words give one reason, 
Gal. 1. ●0.  because such cannot be true believers. For how can they believe saith he, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour which cometh of God alone? There is extant in print a little book containing the recantations of William Tedder and Anthony Tyrrel sometime two seminary priests of the English college in Rome, as they were severally pronounced by them at Paul's cross in the year 1588. wherein they both show what letted them in their times to be reform. & first W. Ted. saith, one great cause was this we now speak of, the fear of worldly shame & temporal discredit: but saith he. I did not consider then, or I cared not for that sentence of our saviour. Every one that confesseth me before men, him will I confess also before my father which is in heaven, 
〈◊〉. 10.  and whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, in this adulterous and a sinful nation the son of man shall be ashamed of him, 
〈◊〉. 8. ●.  when he cometh in the glory of his father with his angels. This was the cause that made me take a preposterous way turning all things to mine own credit, when I should have turned them to the glory of God, according to our saviours council: seek first the kingdom of God etc. So thinking to get credit by mine obstinacy, 
〈◊〉. 6.  I did lose, saith he, the favour of God, the love of my sovereign, and the good will of all true subjects. The other cause saith he, was the tickling of vainglory, and this I am sure doth hold most of the contrary side in their perverse obstinacy, howsoever they brag that they seek nothing by their dealings but the glory of God. I thought it a goodly thing and worthy commendation to defend an evil cause by probable reasons, yet I know it was a hard thing for Anaxagoras to prove that snow was black or ink white, and for me to prove light to be darkness, and darkness light. Thus spoke this Tedder, and spared not himself in that open place. The other Anthony Tyrrell to the same effect used these words: Here, saith he I must confess to the great honour of almighty God, that I have had many and vehement temptations to hinder me from this action of repentance, but they being worldly and fleshly, with the sword of God's spirit I have overthrown them and cut them in pieces, One was this, the shame of the world, if I should turn: against which I have learned now to say, Melius est confunài in hoc seculo, quàm in futuro. Better it is to be confounded in this world, then in the world to come: & against pride and haughtiness of mind, which did also trouble me, I have learned to say with Augustine, Melior est in malis factis humilis confessio, quam in bonis superba gloriatio, Better it is when a man hath done evil, humbly to confess his fault, then proudly to vaunt of his well doing: and rather had I with the penitent publican confess myself an open sinner, then with the proud Pharisee to prove myself an open liar. Thus do you see, good mother, the hindrance which you object of talk and speech of the world in these two men, both scholars and both priests, and yet how God in mercy gave them the upper hand over such weakness. You know Nicodemus his case. He liked of Christ, and very willing he was to be his disciple, but he came by night, that he might not lose his credit of the world: we all confess it a weakness in him. And so certainly is it to fear the tongues of men that are deceived as we were before god gave us light. Never had Prophet, Apostle, Martyr, or child of God done any duty if they had hanged upon men's tongues, and more regarded the vain breath of their taunts, which have but a time and vanish as smoke, rather than that truth and that God which is for ever. It was well said of one, Qui conscientias suas in alienis labiis posuerunt, modò magni, modò parvi, modo nulli sunt. They that hang their consciences on other men's lips, sometimes are great men, sometimes little, sometimes no body: so vile and vain is this course. 
●an. l. 14.  Polycletus (saith Aelian) made two pictures, one after the fancy and correction of every one that found any fault, another after his own true skill and knowledge: But O the difference of these two pictures! Diogenes is said upon an extreme cold day to have stood in the water to punish his body, and many looking upon him had pity on him, but at last Plato seeing what was done, and wisely perceiving the man's vanity, said, Masters if you pity him indeed, go you away from him, meaning that when they were gone, of whom he vainly hunted for praise, he would come roundly out, and to the fire. Such a gross folly is it to seek to please men and to be highly esteemed of men for any thing, especially for error and mis-doing. This is as S. Hierom saith, to be gloriae animal & popularis rumoris venale mancipium: 
Epist. 26.  The vassal of vainglory, and the sold slave of popular praise. The wind hoisteth up the light dust and scattereth all abroad: so doth the hanging too much on men's lips hurt many a man and woman well disposed, and disperse the good motions of their mind. Therefore wise was that devise of Philippe king of Macedon, 
Aelian. l. 12.  who to make a vain Physician delighted with men's praises too much to see his error, invited him amongst many more to a royal feast, and placing him at a board by himself, when all the rest had great store of meat, he had only sweet fumes and smokes made before him, and so rose with an hungry belly. I will end with that speech which like a dart me thinks pierceth when it is spoken or read with reverence and due meditation. Mercedem habent; verily, verily, I say unto you they have their reward. Men they would please, and praise they would have, it is their end, and they have it, saith our Saviour: but they had better be without it, for they lose the approbation of the Lord, and procure themselves everlasting shame. Were the report good, or were the report evil, Paul did his duty in that which was good and had a blessed end. 
〈◊〉 bonam farm, & malam ●●●m.   M. 
I must confess son, you are in the right, if frail flesh would be ruled. But what say you when a man or woman, have been long of this mind, 
〈◊〉 change on 〈◊〉 sudden is ●●d, but delay ●●gerous.  can they change upon the sudden?  S. 
O mother, what should I say? yourself be judge and answer yourself. Did ever any whom we read of in the scripture, feeling the piercing power of God's spirit smiting upon the rock of their hidden hearts within, take time with the Lord, and say they would yield after three months, or six months, etc. No, no, immediately those happy convertes that were pricked in their hearts at S. Peter's sermon cried out: 
〈…〉.  Men and brethren what shall we do? Immediately the Eunuch, the laylour, the happy woman Lydia, Cornelius and all the rest spoken of in scripture were reform. 
〈…〉. c. 16.  They stayed not an hour hovering and hammering, 
z. ●. ●. 16.  looking back to Sodom with Lot's wife, or to Egypt with the jews; but joyfully embraced the truth without delay. Surely they are set down as holy examples for us to follow. To day, to day, is the voice of God: and to morrow, to morrow is the voice of Satan. Herein doth sin and Satan deceive us, that they will have to day, and god must have to morrow. Now, now is the accepted time, saith the Apostle, & illud nunc, nullum habet crastinum, saith the godly father Nazianzen, That now hath no morrow. All Satan's fetch (saith another) is to make us defer, and so by deferring to lose utterly Gods offered mercy; Qui non est hody, cras minùs aptus erit, He that is not fit to day will certainly be more unfit to morrow: Quot vicibus, tot vinculis, saith Gregory of continuance in any evil: the longer we continue in it, the stiffer we shall be and the more obstinate. And of doing good its truly said of another, Quanto magis differtur, tanto difficiliùs redditur, vel propter peccati consuetudinem, vel propter maiorem dei offensionem: The longer it is deferred, the harder it is to perform, either in respect of the strength of sin through custom, or the offence of god increased by so deferring. Make no longer tarrying saith the wise Siracides, tu turn unto the Lord, neither put it off from day to day: for suddenly shall the wrath of the Lord break forth, 
Eccles. ●●  and in thy security thou shalt be destroyed, and thou shalt perish in the time of vengeance. The Lord will give thee a penny (saith S. Austen) though thou come but at the eleventh hour, but yet he hath not promised thee to live to the second hour: noting the uncertainty of our life not to be presumed upon, one moment of an hour: tu ergò quò quando vocaris, veni: thou therefore saith he, come whither thou art called, and when thou art called, come, come, without any longer stay, or any more ifs and and's, or consultations with flesh and blood. It is thy God that calleth, who allowed not him to go bury his father, or to salute his friends that sought that delay, but required forthwith, Fellow thou me: Zacheus when the Lord said unto him, come down for I will dine with thee, came down hastily and received him joyfully, which God in mercy make us ever to do: Whose image and superscription is upon you, even upon your body, and upon your soul? is it not Gods? o give then unto God that which is Gods, your own self to your own sweet and good God, and see the comfort of it: Lord strengthen, Lord help for thy sons sake.  M. 
Amen, son, and god give satisfaction in our consciences ever to choose what is right in his eyes. For conscience is truly called the bird in my breast that would not be troubled.  S. 
True satisfaction of conscience, mother, is a good thing, and ever to be laboured for. But I beseech you mark how greatly this word is abused, when fancy and will are called conscience. Now a days let it be asked of any recusant (as we call them) why he or she goeth not to Church, the common answer is, forsooth my conscience will not let me; or, It is my conscience etc., as though every toy that I take in my head were by and by conscience. Ask them further, why their conscience will not let them; either they cannot or will not answer, but think they have said enough when they have named once the word Conscience. Alas, we know that true conscience hath a ground and reason out of God's word: as when I say my conscience will not suffer me to kill a man, and you ask me why? I readily answer, because it is written, Thou shalt not kill, and so in all other matters forbidden & disallowed by almighty God: which if they could do either in this matter of coming to Church, or in any other point of obedience commanded by her Majesty and the law of this land, than might they talk of conscience, and make scruple with authority, because we must obey God rather then man. But this being not so forasmuch as nothing is enjoined them that is contrary to the word, therefore this conscience of theirs is but fancy, wilful obstinacy, and disobedience, which the Lord will punish: for we are plainly taught that every soul ought to be subject to the higher powers: there is no power but of God: 
m. 13. 1●.  and the powers that be are ordained of God and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation, all being bound to be subject not for fear of wrath only, but also for conscience sake. For human laws enacted of things that be good in themselves, that is, commanded of God, properly are not human but divine laws, and therefore bind conscience not because they were enacted by man, but because they were first made by God, men being no more but instruments and ministers in his name to revive, renew, and put in execution such precepts and laws as prescribe the worship of God, standing in the practice of true religion and virtue: and the man or woman that breaks such laws sinneth two ways: first because he breaks that which in nature and conscience is the law of God; secondly because in disobeying his lawful magistrate, he disobeyeth the general commandment of God touching magistrates.  M. 
You will have conscience then ever grounded upon God's word.  S. 
If it be a right conscience, I say it must needs be so. For it is called Conscientia, quasi cum scientiâ (or as some think) quasicordis scientia, as if you should say with science and knowledge, or the knowledge of the heart. Now true knowledge what pleaseth or displeaseth God, must needs be out of his word, because therein only his will is manifested unto us Again the actions of the conscience (saith the Apostle) are in accusing and excusing which needs must have relation to the word. For how can conscience justly accuse me, but because the thing I do is condemned of God, or how can it excuse me, but because my deeds by gods word, which is his will, are justifiable. Conscience therefore without direction of god's word cannot give true judgement either to justification or condemnation. Whatsoever therefore is done with an erroneous conscience we see plainly is sin: for evil remaineth evil, though conscience say the contrary a thousand times: and so doth good remain good. As if a man come into an house in the dark, where many things are out of order, which yet for the darkness he seethe not to be so, are they not therefore out of order because he seethe them not? The like may be said on the other side where all things are passing well, and yet he seethe it not. Conscience therefore is a guide to me, and the word of God a guide to my conscience: which if it were marked and grounded in our hearts, o how would we tremble to be so ignorant of God's word, as often we are, and to do as we do, and say as we say. This makes us to run headlong with good intents, whereas no good intention is sufficient to make any work good unless withal conscience approve my action, which it can never rightly do, but by giving judgement that God approveth it. This makes us bold to worship God with man's inventions, 
●ay. 29. ●3. ●ark. 7.7.  not considering that such devices are mere sins, because conscience cannot say of them according to her rule, that they please God. Finally as one saith with a godly desire to awake us. This maketh man's life flow even with a sea of offences against God, men commonly thinking that if they keep themselves from perjury, blasphemy, murder, theft, whoredom, all is well with them. But the truth is, so long as they live in ignorance, they want true and right direction out of God's word: and therefore their best actions are sins, even their eating and drinking, their sleeping and waking, their buying and selling, their speech and silence, yea their praying & serving of God. For they do these actions either of custom or example, or necessity, as beasts do, and not of faith, because they know not gods will touching things to be done or left undone. Wherefore the due consideration hereof should make every man most careful to seek for knowledge of God's word and daily to increase in it, that he may in all his affairs have gods laws to be the men of his council, that he may give heed to them as to a lantern unto his feet; and a light unto his paths. So shall conscience be a sure guide, and he reform himself by true obedience both to God and man. Otherwise as I have said, what we call conscience, is but a fancy, a conceit, and a false erroneous persuasion, such as if we still will follow against God, against prince, against country, and all that ever any governors or friends can say unto us: the day will come when we shall feel with woe the punishment of such obstinacy, and true conscience shall witness the want of conscience in so proudly disobeying all good persuasions, which God forbidden in his great mercy, and turn our hearts in time unto his truth.  M. 
But I take it there is a plain scripture, that who so doth a thing which in his heart he thinketh he should not do, committeth deadly sin, because he doth against his own conscience, or against his own pretenced knowledge.  S. 
Good mother, the scripture you mean (as I conceive) is written in the 14 chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, where the blessed Apostle saith, He that doubteth, is condemned if he eat because he eateth not of faith: and what soever is not of faith is sin. Which place little helpeth any popish ignorance or stubborn wilfulness, but is greatly by Romish Catholics abused and wrested, as other scriptures to serve for their way wardness. Concerning which text, thus have our men truly and godlily answered long ago and often: first that the Apostle speaketh there of a particular and certain matter, papists applying these words generally to whatsoever they do contrary to their erroneous conscience or pretenced knowledge, 2. that the particular matter which the Apostle speaketh of is a thing indifferent, whereas Papists apply the words to things simply good, and simply evil, saying the former may be left undone if my erring conscience be against it, the later done without sin, if my pretenced knowledge lead me to it. 3. That the things which the Apostle speaketh of, were such as God himself was author of in his law, as distinction of meat and days, which whilst the jews won to the Gospel did in those days retain, though they did it ignorantly, not knowing the liberty of the Gospel, yet till they might be fully persuaded therein by faith, which is grounded on doctrine and on the word, they were bound to keep by the commandment of God himself. 4. That the manner and end of the Apostles bearing is not to nourish error, or to harden such an one in his opinion and doing, but by patience to draw him to truth in the end, which manner of tolerance the Apostle calleth edification, vers. 19 and chap. 15.2. Lastly the Apostle speaketh not of Gentiles & infidels, nor of stubborn Christians, but of a brother, a faithful man, and one that hath received and embraced the profession of the Gospel, but is weak through ignorance of some one point pertaining to Christian liberty in the outward use of God's creatures wherein he is not thoroughly persuaded of instructed; of bearing with such an one by those whom God hath called to more plentiful knowledge of his heavenly truth, speaketh he. All which things duly considered, the true sense of the place appeareth thus: namely that the faithful for his particular regard being in doubt, or lacking the full persuasion of faith (which is given by measure, and hath his time of groweth and increasing) cannot without danger, (and therefore ought not) attempt to do that wherein he is not already by the word of God and faith fully and thoroughly resolved. But mark this double caution; first, that his abstaining from the outward action be without danger of offence, and scandal & secondly, that he stand not stiffly in his own opinion, flattering himself therein, but ready upon further instruction and knowledge to grow forward and to profit, yea desirous also of such instruction, and whatsoever other means may help to the better informing of his conscience in that behalf, whereby he may both clearly see the thing doubted of to the good, holy, and lawful, & do the same with all sincerity & faithfulness.  M. 
But what if without danger of offending God and prince, I cannot abstain from the outward action, and yet doubt in myself.  S. 
Your obedience being due, it less offendeth to commit one fault then two, that is to do what you ought though doubtingly, than both do doubt and disobey. The doubting is a fault, the obedience is none. Amend what is evil by better instruction, withdraw not what is good and due by all right. He is condemned saith the Apostle, if he eat, not because he eateth but because he eateth not of faith. In a lawful action therefore it is not the deed which offendeth, but the doubting, that is, not the matter, but the manner: perform obedience with a single heart and God in mean shall bless it with true resolution.  M. 
Doth not then an erroneous conscience bind.  S. 
It may be borne withal for a time in charitable regard of weakness, and in hope of better instruction, but God forbid that it should still bind, and be a cover or excuse for wilful, wayward, and malicious disobedience. 
2. Thes. 2. 1. Tim. 4.  For then to be given over to a strong delusion to believe lies is not such a judgement as the Apostle maketh it, neither yet to have the conscience feared with an hot iron. 
2. Tim. 1.19  It is not right which the Apostle teacheth that upon the putting away of a good conscience their followeth any shipwreck of faith, or that the wicked have their very minds and consciences defiled. 
1. Tit. 1.  For if the colour of such a conscience bind, excuse and save harmless, how is it defiled? can that which is defiled itself make clean any action? But o miserable doctrine! that false reason should be made a guide to will, and we bound to follow so blind a guide. The very heathen philosophers were not so mad. For they talk of recta ratio, and of mens sana in corpore sano, of right and true reason, and of a sound mind in a sound body, etc. A jew sinneth mortally (say these Catholic teachers) if cō●ratrary to his pretenced knowledge or against his erroneous conscience he acknowledge in Trinity jesus Christ the second person, yea the jews had sinned mortally if they had not crucified Christ according to their erring consciences. Again to believe in Christ, if false reason propound it as evil, is evil, yea to worship the devil being deceived by the same reason, is not only not a sin, but a good work. O Catholic doctrine! Then for the second table; if a man leaving his wife, and going into another country, marry another, and after repenting himself would leave her, affirming his former wife to be alive, and the Church suffer him not, being ignorant of the truth of that his assertion, although this latter marriage be nought and the man consequently an adulterer (Dear mother mark this stuff) the woman being excused by ignorance, yet compelled by the disciplin● of the Church, his obedience excuseth him. This is gross and known adultery excused by these holy Catholics: false reason and erring conscience ruleth this kingdom of darkness so shamefully If this be not libertinism, what is? Alas why might not this favour be showed in Queen Mary's days that an erring conscience should excuse? Why were men and women then compelled to do contrary to their consciences, which at worst must be granted to be erroneous consciences. Nay see their partiality yet more: for if one of their prelates command what a man's erring conscience stardeth at, than they say such a man ought to lay away that his conscience and obey his prelate. And why not when God commandeth should a man do the like? O blind guides, what doctrine is this? if the commandment of an inferior officer or magistrate bind not when the superior as King or Emperor commandeth the contrary, how may an erring conscience ever bind me against the Lord? God's book is so far from allowing this erring conscience, and this pretenced knowledge, that it only alloweth good, and suffereth not evil to be done, that good may come of it.  M. 
Surely, I see more harshness in the doctrine than I did before. But on the other side to compel and force any body by laws and penalty, before the conscience be fully persuaded, is it not as harsh and hard to?  S 
Where there is an honest plain meaning to endeavour to be persuaded and resolved, god forbid but some time should be granted. And I think it is so in all places. But propound the matter thus: whether a godly prince after a time given & means granted to be taught and instructed, and after all gentleness & patience used, his subjects refusing to be taught, and contemning that gracious & great favour, continuing still perversely and obstinately in Idolatry, and superstition, whether I say, then by laws and punishments to compel them to the true worship of God, be so hard and harsh? And then truth will answer that it is not, but just, godly, and fit. For not only to maintain public peace is the sword given, but also to see that God be served according to his commandments, 
●trieis call ●amans ●●tum.  that is, both the tables are committed to him, & the breaches of both aught by him to be punished, otherwise man should be regarded more than God, & the lesser duties more than the greater. In which holy and relious duty hath not the magistrate god for his pattern, who after words of admonition given to his own elect & dear children, if they take no place, compelleth as it were by crosses & rods of his fatherly love to the bettering of their course & leaving of evil? Yea is not our own practice so with our own children, if gentle admonition will not serve? whereupon the saying sprang; he that spareth the rod hateth the child. what shall we say to the Scriptures, that are as plain for the warrant of this matter as we need to desire: did not Nabuchodonosor make a law that every people, nation, and language, which spoke any blasphemy against the god of Sidrach &c. should be drawn in pieces, 
Dan. 3.29.  &. their houses made a ●akes? Darius also made another decree chap 6. In the book of Chronicles Asa destroyeth Idolatry, & commandeth his people to serve the true God, 
2. Chro. 14.14  yea he sweareth them, and deposeth his mother for adultery: whose erroneous conscience was in all likelihood as strong as any Papists for his popery. In the book of Ezra we read that the king of Persia made a decree that the jews should build their temple, that they should have all things necessary for their sacrifices, that they might offer sweet odours unto the God of heaven, & pray for the king's life, & the life of his sons. Also he made another law that whosoever should alter that sentence, 
a penal stat●●  the wood should be pulled down from his house and set up, and he hanged thereon, & his house made a dunghill for this. 
Ezra. 6.11.  And the god that hath caused his name to dwell their (saith that law) destroy all kings and people that put their hand to alter and destroy this house of God which is in Jerusalem: Idarius have made a decree, let it be done with speed. After again (which I pray you good mother to mark) authority is given to set judges and arbiters which may judge all the people that is beyond the river, 
p. 7.25.  even all that know the law of God: and to teach all that know it not: and whosoever will not obey the law of God & the king's law (saith that statute) let him have judgement without delay: whether it be unto death or punishment, to confiscation of goods or to imprisonment. What law did ever any prince make more plain without any regard to a pretended conscience wanting true ground out of the law of god? For if that might either then or now be allowed, what law could hold, against which he that list not to be reform, would not object his erroneous conscience? What government could any prince in the world settle and establish? Away therefore with this idle dream of a pretended conscience, and mark how never in any government it was regarded after ways and means used for the reformation of it, but ever subjecteth to the penalty of the law, being indeed an obstinacy both against god and prince, worthy punishment. In the new testament is it not said, 
Luk. 14.23.  Go into the high ways anà compel to come in that my house my be full. I forgot to remember you of that law and penal statute made by the king of Ninive, 
jonah. 3.  which was so well liked of god: but you may now think of it, and add it to the rest of the old testament. If we look at practice, Polonia, Russia, Lituania were forced at the commandment of their rulers to forsake their ancient Idols, 
Munst. Cosm. 4. p. 894.902. L. 3. p. 719.74  and to receive baptism. Good princes also maintained long and sharp wars to compel the Saxons and Vandals to the faith, etc. The laws of this realm [blessed be god] force to nothing but what is directly proved in scripture. And the constraint is not outrageous with fire and sword, but tempered with mercy, that is, free from loss of life and limb, such as the true Church of god never disliked and Christian princes always used with great and good success. It is tempered also with good instruction to forsake error, wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his truth defaced. Romish Catholics revenge the smallest contempt of their idle ceremonies with unsufferable torments. Their prelates make it their occupation to persecute to death all sorts, ages, and Sexes which refuse their school-tricks or dregs of their Clementines or decretals How then can they find fault with any due compulsion full of mercy and profit to all that be not maliciously froward: yea all of them both Clergy and laity promised in baptism to hold this faith, therefore they may be compelled to perform their promise. Gratian, Theodosius, Arcadius, Honorius, and other Christian princes with convenient sharpness of positive laws, amerced, banished, and diversly punished heretics. And these coactions when the Donatists railed on them with open mouth, S. Augustin defended and commended, writing to Vincentius thus. Thinkest thou (saith he) that no man ought to the forced unto righteousness, 
●pist. 49.  when thou readest that the master said to his servants compest them to come in? and also that Paul was forced by loss of his eyes, a greater punishment than loss of lands and goods. Mark● Christ here first compelling, after teaching: striking; then comforting. Let them not mislike that they are forced but examine whereto they are forced. How do kings (saith he) serve the Lord in fear but when they forbidden and punish with religious severity those things that are done against the commandment of God, as Hezekiah did by destroying the groaves and temples built against the precepts of God, as did josiah the king of Niniveh, Nabuchodonosor, etc. S. Ambrose saith, Quoniam futurum judicium Deus statuit, & nullum perire vult, hoc in seculo rectores ordinavit, ut terrore interposito omnibus velut paedagogi sint, 
in epist. ad. Rom. c. 13.  ne in paenam incidant futuri iudicei. For as much as God hath appointed a future and final judgement in the world to come, and would not that any should perish, he hath ordained rulers in this present world, to be as it were schoolmasters to all to keep them through terror that they incur not the penalty of the judgement to come. Thus we see scripture, reason, practice, fathers, all allowing compulsion of an erroneous conscience or pretenced knowledge, which surely is enough to any moderate mind desiring satisfaction in true simplicity, and not making covers for ungodly obstinacy in subtle hypocrisy.  M. 
Son your answers are so reasonable, that I will still object, to hear your answers. What if I say God hath made us free, therefore there is no reason any should be compelled.  S. 
Then will I answer (Good Mother) that even our first parents, who had free-will, had also both a law given them of God, and a penalty added to the same if they should transgress it: much more now then may the like be done, when we have both lost ourselves and our free-will (to use the words of S. Austin:) By no law is the will compelled, for that still is either free or it looseth his name of will. But men according to their bodies may be forced as well to keep the commandments of the first table concerning duty to God, as the commandments of the second table concerning duty to men.  M. 
But again I will say, this maketh men hypocrites, when outwardly they do that which in their hearts they mislike.  S. 
And again I answer, that the drift of the magistrate is not to make them hypocrites, but by these means to draw them willingly to do that which thy are enjoined. And if it be not so, that is their fault, not the magistrates. So did God with jonas, Paul, and others. So saith S Augustin of his own cirtie fallen to Donatisme, 
ug. contr. audience epitome. l. 2. c. 17.  that by outward laws they were brought to inward knowledge, and so he saw the benefit of this course, that the sword should reign with the word, although at first he saith it was his opinion that none should be compelled before he were persuaded. And S Chrysostome saith, Multi sunt qui cùm virtutem primùm respectu magistratus exercuerunt, posted etiam illam propter Dei timorem amplectuntur. 
a Spist. ad 〈◊〉. c. 13.  Many men whereas at first they be have themselves virtuously in regard of the magistrate, and for fear of punishment, afterward do it gladly, even for fear of God and in reverence of his majesty. We see the judgement of this holy father: that compulsion by the magistrate is necessary and profitable, though at first it procure but external obedience, and his reason which followeth is very good, Crassiores enim (saith he) non adeo futura tangunt atque praesentia: 
ibidem.  for carnal men are not so much touched with future as present things: that is (as I understand him) the torments of hell in the world to come do not so much prevail with them, as the punishment of the Magistrate presently to be inflicted upon them. And that Epistle of S. Augustin is most worthy often reading, his 48 epistle.  M. 
Yet forced Religion pleaseth not God.  S. 
Surely, it less displeaseth with one part to do my duty, then with both parts to offend. To come to Church with my bodies, where by God's grace I may be caught, as S. Augustin was at S. Ambrose his sermon, then both with body and mind to disobey not only prince but God. A part of my duty is something, though it be not all.  M. 
The magistrate cannot give faith, therefore he should not compel to faith.  S. 
He doth not compel to faith, but to the means whereby God useth to give saith, namely, to hearing: for faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God; which how profitable it may be by God's mercy, hath been already said: and the words of David show, when he saith, It is good for me that I have been in trouble, etc. and the words of jeremy, Castigasti, & Castigatus sum, thou hast chastened me, and I have been chastened. The words of Esay, Vexatio dat intellectum Vexation and trouble work understanding: The words of wise Solomon, Da sapienti occasionem, & sapientior erit, give a wise man occasion and he will be wiser.  M. 
Why then did not Christ compel any?  S. 
Christ was no magistrate: and we speak of the Magistrate, and what he may do by his office and authority given him by God.  M. 
Surely Son, great is truth, and prevaileth, I will trouble you no further in this matter.  S. 
I will then dear mother, shut it up with S. Augustins words to the Donatists, Non bene facere legibus cogimini, sed malè facere prohibemini. Nam bene facere nemo potest, nisi elegerit etc. You are not compelled by laws, to do well, but you are forbidden and hindered to do evil: For no man can do well unless he willingly do it: Timor autem paenarum cisi nondum habeat dilectionem bonae conscientiae, saltem intra claustra cogitationis coercet malam cupiditatem: And the fear of punishment although it have not as yet the love of good conscience, yet at least it restraineth evil within the hidden cogitation Numquid quia mores optimi libertate voluntatis eliguntur, 
contra Petil. l. 2. c. 83.  ideò mores pessimi non legis integritate puniuntur? Because good manners are chosen by freedom of will, therefore are not ill manners punished by integrity of law? In a word, Aliter non persequimur vos nisi quemadmodum veritas persequitur falsit atem: We persecute you no otherwise, but as truth persecuteth falsehood, namely to salvation, not to destruction.  M. 
Surely, your answers, I must confess, are far otherwise, then either I looked for at your hands, or thought could have been given in your cause. Wherefore I say again we on our side are greatly wronged, when we are forbidden to read your books, or to confer with you. But yet if some learned man were here to dispute with you, happily he would contrary this which to me seemeth plain.  S. 
Surely mother, even this also which you name is a good point be touched. For indeed it is an usual shift of men and women thus given to say. I cannot answer you, but if such and such were here they would: and, would God we might have some disputation, then should we see which part were better. Yea such brags are made by some learned of your side, to blind the eyes of the people, as if either there never had been trial of their strength this way, or as if they always had had the upper hand in disputation; when God knoweth, and the world can witness herein their weakness and great foils, to the glory of God and victory of his truth in the hearts of many thousands both men and women. For confirmation whereof let me remember you of the disputation at Berne in Helvetia, in king Henry the 8, his days, which is thus published in Chronicle to the worlds knowledge. There was in ☞ the year of our Lord 1527. in the month of december order taken by the senate and people of Berne, whose power amongst all the Swissers chief excelleth in regard of the variance of religion that then was and still more & more increaseth, that there should be a public disputation in that city, and to that end they sent forth writings of the same, and called thither all the Bishops bordering near about them, as the bishop of Constance, Basil, Sedune, Lausanna, warning them to come both themselves and to bring with them their divines, or else to lose all such professions as they had lying within the bounds of their precinct. They also appointed learned men amongst them, preachers of the Gospel to be ready to dispute against all comers in defence of their doctrine, prescribing the disputation to be decided only by the authority of the old and new testament. They granted safe conduct to all that would come. They appointed likewise that all things should be done modestly without injury and brawling words, and that every one should have leave to speak his mind freely, and with such deliberation that every man's saying might be received by the notary and penned. And to the end men might come thither better prepared, they caused their ministers to publish such questions as they should dispute on before hand in writing, that every man might study to say what he could against them, and they were ten in number. 

1. The true Church riseth out of God's word, continueth in the same, and heareth the voice of none other.  
2. The true Church maketh no laws, without the word.  
3. Traditions bind not, but as fir as they are agreeable to the written word.  
4. Christ only hath satisfied for the sins of the world, and therefore if any make any other way, the same denieth Christ.  
5. The body and blood of Christ cannot be received really and corporally by the testimony of scripture.  
6. There is no place of purging after this ☞ life, and therefore all dirges, prayers, ceremonies, lamps, tapers, etc. bestowed for the dead profit nothing.  
7. Christ only is to be prayed unto as the mediator of mankind to God the father.  
8. The mass is wicked and derogatory to Christ's sacrifice offered for us.  
9 Images ought not to be set up in Churches and prayed unto.  
10. Marriage is allowed by God unto all degrees.   These things I say, thus agreed upon before hand were sent abroad to all places, and the day appointed the 7, of januarie for the disputation to begin. At which day (now see the courage of Catholics) not one of the bishops before named came: nevertheless the city of Basil, Zuricke, Schasuse, Abbacelle, Sangallium, Mallusia with the neighbours of Rhetia, also they of Strawsburge ulme's, Ausburge, Lindaue, Constance and Isue sent thither their Ambassadors. The doctors of Berne began the disputation, whereat were present Zuinglius, Oecolampadius, Bucerus, Capito, and Blaurecus with others. One the other side of them that were opponents, the chief was Conzadus and Tregerus, a friar Augustine, who no way able to prove his cause out of the old and new testament, as was appointed and decreed at first, desired that he might allege Doctors: which the moderators refusing to grant, because it was contrary to the order appointed, he to his great shame, and to the prejudice of all his side departed out of the place and would dispute no more. The disputation endured 19 days and in the end by the greater part of that assembly the protestants had the victory, and the Papists the foil. And it was agreed upon that the themes before mentioned were all true and agreeable to God's holy word, that they should be ratified and proclaimed according to promise, and that masses, altars, images, etc. should in all places be abolished: So they were at Constance, Berne, and Geneva, they causing the day and year of this reformation from popery to Christianity to be engraven in a pillar with golden letters for a perpetual memory to all posterity. This was anno 1528. After the rumour of this disputation, Reformation followed at Strawsburge, Basil, and other places, to Gods great glory, the comfort of his people, & the true witnessing to the world what strength Romish Catholics have in disputation, when they are desired to keep to the scriptures, which only is the ground of truth and conscience. I may not repeat others at large, but blessed be God the like trial of them was made and the like foil given them at Wittenberg, and Ravensburge, at Ausburge, at Spire at Worms, at Pois, and here in England, at London, at Cambridge, at Oxford and in private houses and consistories of Bishops often. That notable service of Beza, at Pois gone through the world, when the Cardinal of Lotharinge wished that either Beza had been dumb, or they his auditors and adversaries dea●e, will witness for ever what pith popish falsehood hath had against Christian truth held and taught by protestants, when they came to disputation. Read our own Chronicles of the cowardly refusal of the popish Bishops to dispute at the happy entrance of her Majesty to the Crown, how also they behaved themselves in Queen Mary's time, when one of them said, we had the word, but they had the sword, etc. Indeed, indeed, the sword and the fire are their best arguments, and in blood they build whatsoever they build. Never, never, therefore let them boast of disputation, or say they have prospered by it: for we need not to fear them, God be blessed, nor they to brag of any winning. There never wanted yet, neither ever shall want both learned and unlearned on our side, whose spirits they shall not be able to resist: writing, preaching, disputing, they are the Gospel's weapons and ways to build by; Popery must take sun other course as yet in all times they have done which hold that plough. O that for further proof of this point men would be content without prejudice to read the Acts & monuments of this our native country, and English Church where we live, marking with a mind desirous of truth what answers have been made by simple women, maids, and girls unto great Bishops and Doctoures in causes of religion & faith, to the great astonishment of their adversaries, & the high glory of God seen in their weakness so strengthened by him. But nothing can be more grievous to that Church then to grant leave to do this, which surely bewrayeth they are afraid. Hence come their lies and slanders invented against that book, which would full soon be descried of us would we read it. If any have been in Westminster ball, at tharraignment of a misdoer, we willingly hear him a whole day to tell us the manner of it, what was objected, what answered, what replied, and what concluded: yet we will not read with our own eyes, having it so notably penned for us, the conventing of holy Christian men and women before their judges for matter of faith and salvation. We will talk of disputation, disputations, and o that men might be allowed to speak freely without danger of law what they are able: and when the time was for theirs to speak what they would or could, and we stood at the bar in bolts and iron to answer their objections and profound learning, we will not now read what was then done & said on both sides; Surely I will say of that book what I wish tried, that after the ground of holy scriptures, it will yield the greatest contentment. Men shall see men, women shall see women, age shall see age, and youth youth brought to the trial, how they answered, how they suffered, how flesh startled, how the spirit conquered, and in a word, how God showed his mercy and power infinite ways. If we find they speak well, we may embrace it, if otherwise leave it. The Lord hath given us wisdom and reason, and of his grace also, I trust to be able to discern, if we would read. O why should our enemies hoodwincke us so that we must never see but with their eyes. If the charge of this book be to much for one, an whole parish might join together and use it by turners, as leisure served.  M. 
Son, I see you are ready for every way, and therefore having gone thus far in trial of what you could say, and now being come to our journeys end, I will go no further with you at this time, but reserve the particular points of controversy till we have some fit leisure and opportunity again.  S. 
Good Mother, when and how you please. But now ere we part I beseech you let me speak something to you with out offence. I will not say much.  M. 
Speak on, you shall do more Then as yet you have done, if you any way offend me.  S. 

〈◊〉 religious ●●ite or a ver●ous child to 〈◊〉 mother.  My suit is then, most dear mother, with a melting heart of an humble child, that you would vouchsafe to think of that which hath now been spoken, as also of this fear, full course which you have to long liked of in not coming to Church, not receiving the sacrament, not hearing God's word, not obeying the laws of your dread and gracious Sovereign, and of your native country. It woundeth your credit and estimation with the best, it hurteth my father, daunteth your children, blemisheth your house, and wrongeth your friends both near & dear most grievously. But o father I say again, my heart bursteth and bleedeth to see how he is eclipsed by it, in comparison of others to whom he is no way inferior, either in birth, in living, in wisdom and experience, or in any gift in body or mind, neither hath his country that good from him, or he that good from his country that might be had if you were reform. For how may he be thought so fit to rule others abroad, that cannot be obeyed of his own at home. His children therefore want him, his friends want him, his servants want him, yea he himself wanteth himself many times to his grief. Other things also I could name that better may be conceived in your tender love towards him then by me expressed at this time. O mother pardon your own flesh in speaking thus boldly to you, and know that it is but a part of yourself that speaketh to yourself in tender lovect duty. When first my father matched with you, he hoped of strength & countenance every way to be increased to him both by yourself and your excellent qualities wherewith God hath endued you, and by your friends and house, to whom by this marriage he should be united: not of any abashment and abatement in all these to him and his poor children the pledges of love betwixt you. And thus might it be it you would, but alas, thus is it not, because hitherto you would not. A few false charmers have sunk deeper into your heart with their deceits, than all your best friends can with their faithful advertisements. And what is this else in you and others of your persuasion, but that which ever hath been done by the old serpent the head and guide of these charmers. In the Acts of the Apostles we read that the jews hating deadly the truth of the Gospel preached by the Apostles, and desirous to vex them for it, devised this as the best means to stir up certain honest and devout women against them, which women should work with their friends to expel such preachers from amongst them. Now why women? but because Satan hath ever had his advantage against this weak vessel? why devout women? but because a religious mind meaning well, yet wanting knowledge is both quicklier deceived with show of religion, and hottelier pursueth what it once beginneth, doing more hurt in that false devotion, than many others not so well thought of. And why honourable women? but that might being added to blind zeal both by power and example Satan's cause might go forward. These charmers, saith the Apostle again, shall still be creeping into houses & lead captive simple women. By which often repeated name of women in the scripture, all good women are effectually warned to beware. Were there cause for you or any others thus to do, it no way could stand with religion to dissuade you, and in myself to you Mother, it should be a double sin, because I am yours and above all worldly favours ought to wish your eternal safety before others: but the Lord knoweth, whose truth is with us, that there is no cause. And whatsoever by the power of all popish learning hath been alleged as any cause, we have answered sound out of God's book, our answers standing without reply unto this day. Our service therefore is lawful, our prayers are holy, our meetings are Christian: and no better way to be resolved hereof, then part by part to examine them. So have some done and been reform, wondering how so great slanders could be raised where no cause is found. The authority also of lawful government commandeth but lawful things, increaseth the duty to obey, and presseth with no smaller weight than damnation as the Apostle flattely affirmeth if we resist. 
Rom. 1●.  Conceits may not take place, where such evidence of truth doth gainsay them. If I had a conceit or persuasion that all meats would kill me, must I certainly die for want of meat and retain my error? The Galatians prescribed themselves amiss in some things, and the Apostle thought it a reason sufficient to reform them, to tell them that such a persuasion was not the persuasion of him that called them, meaning of God. 
Gal. 5.8.  And the scriptures phrase in the matter of persuasion is to add through the Lord. 
Rom. 14.24. 2. Thes. 3.4.  I am persuaded through the Lord: which is worthy noting. Dear Mother, the Lords anointed over you, her sacred Majesty, commandeth this duty, and there is no devil of hell can prove this charge unlawful. Therefore by the bond of a subject true and faithful you ought to obey. My father with sighs and groans of a troubled heart desireth it, and therefore by the bond of a wife loving and dutiful you ought to obey. And, which is the greatest of all, the God that made you commandeth it to you and all his servants: therefore by the bond of a child of God you ought to obey. The bonds are great, the duty is holy, the obedience is everlasting peace, comfort, & life, the danger also is great to strive to offend. And therefore happy is that heart that yieldeth betimes. If by reading their books this wound hath been given you, then read our answers and let God heal. They have written no matter of moment these 40. years in our english tongue, but fully and sound is it answered to God's glory. Yea their new testament, wherein is their whole strength heaped together, is learnedly answered to the full contentment of any not desperately given over to his own blindness. In matter of law concerning the goods of this world, you will hear contrary opinions and choose with judgement. In matter of physic concerning your body, you will do the like, & beat out a truth. Shall only the soul be neglected and pinned on other men's sleeves? o God forbid. He hath promised that never deceived, even in this matter also, Ask and you shall have, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. Thus shall we find their great wickedness in denying the scriptures to be read of them that have souls to be saved as well as themselves: their taking away the cup from the lay people when Christ's institution was, Drink ye all of this: their leaving the second commandment out of their catechisms, because it forbidden death Images, their multitude of bodily exercises, when the scripture saith they profit little: their killing of princes, when the Lord saith. Touch not mine anointed, and David's heart smote him for cutting off but the lap of saul's garment, and to no worse end then to make him see his innocency, and his guards negligence: their freeing of subjects from their obedience, and alliegance when it is written, Let every soul be subject etc. Their direct cross of the written word as, when it is said: No man cometh to the father but by me, they say we have many mediators by whom we may come to the father besides Christ: when it is said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, they say, if not chastened, yet charily, and find in one fish pond of Gregory 6000 children's skulls by that wicked charynes: when the Lord saith, You err because you known not the scriptures, they say directly contrary you will err if you meddle with the scriptures: when the Lord saith, when you have done all say you are unprofitable servants; they say, we may do works of supererogation, more than we are bound, and so merit for others. Also when the Lord forbiddeth a lusting look, their Pope giveth licence not only to erect a stews wherein not long since were numbered 40000. harlots that paid a yearly rent, and upon the 12 day at night were seen go into the Pope's palace 17. coaches full of courtesans. But (o horrible) even ●o practise the sin against nature, and not to be named, during the 3. hot months in the year, june, july, August. All which with many more may give any Christian man or woman not finally forsaken of God and left to a reprobate mind, a true taste of that Cursed religion, and cause them justly to reason thus: Popery maintaineth flat Idolatry divers ways, therefore not true. It alloweth other gross sins forbidden of God, therefore not true. It nuzleth the heart of man in security, therefore not true. It robbeth the conscience of comfort and hope by maintaining doubting, therefore not true. It destroyeth the ordinance of God lawful magistracy and loyal obedience, therefore not true. It flieth the light and nourisheth darkness therefore not true, It spreadeth itself and groweth by lies, false testimonies, slanders, dreams, revelations, counterfeit holiness and feigned miracles, therefore not true. Dear Mother, open your eyes, and regard your soul. Be as you should be, wise without wilfulness, zealous without superstition, discreet to discern, careful to beware regarding God, prince, and country before any spiritual enchanters whatsoever: yea regarding yourself and my dear father, with us your poor children, who rise and fall with your well and ill doing. I am no enemy that beg this of you, but even your own bowels who have lived in you, and never desire to live without you, your child, your own, by God and nature bound unto you. O Mother behold my tears think of my heart, prostrate before you upon my face, I beg it for his sake who gave me to you; whose love is life, whose truth is joy, whose power and goodness is infinite to honour them that honour him. Mine eyes behold you for some word of comfort, cast me not away for jesus sake without it.  M. 
Dear child arise, & let my silence now content thee, It shall not be long ere we talk again. Your father cometh towards us, whom I pray you go mere, and let him not know as yet of our speech. When he was turned from her towards his father, she caught the house upon her, and into her closet she went with haste, where all bewashing herself with tears, she broke out in this sort. O my God and gracious father, thou hast raised out of mine own body a teacher for me that I might not scorn him, and who by me received life concerning his body, he by thee hath offered me life concerning my soul, if I will receive it. I cannot, I cannot deny his reasons, I feel them convince me, I have no excuse against such truth, and such a teacher, but I am caught, I am caught, o my God, if I will not damnably break out of thy net again, and run desperately headlong upon mine own destruction. Woe is me that I so long have erred from thy truth hearkening to the vain inventions of man's brain. Thy word I know is truth, and why should not I ground myself and soul upon it? Thy word I hear is able to make me wise unto salvation, and so can no writing of man. To the la and ●o the testimony, saith thy Prophet, I now remember, and if they speak not according to this, it is because there is no light in them. Who hath grounded upon this rock, and hath miscarried? yet my soul knoweth how popery abhorreth this lantern: we may not read it, we may not go to Church to hear it, we may not have it translated for us, but darkness, darkness, that is still the mother of devotion, though the holy ghost hath said, Search the scriptures and be not children in understanding. How can this then be the true religion, the truth, the light, that forbiddeth all means of knowledge? They bind and burn, I cannot deny, the Saints of God, & bathe themselves in innocent blood. All is hypocrisy and vain glory, I see, I see, that ruleth amongst them. O father strengthen me, o Saviour pity me, o holy ghost confirm me and finish this work begun in me to the eternal praise of thy name, and the profitable moving of others by my example that are abused and deceived by these crafty jugglers and deceitful workers, as I was. Amen, Amen.  
FINIS.