AN ANSWER TO MASTER JOHN DE ALBINES, NOTABLE DISCOURSE AGAINST heresies (as his friends call his book) compiled by THOMAS SPARK pastor of Blechley in the County of Buck.  
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Revelat. 18. vers. 4.  
Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about, all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows, for she hath sinned against the Lord. jerem. 50. vers. 14.  
ACADEMIA. OXONIENSIS.  SAPIENTIAE: ET FELICITATIS  framed printer's device of the coat of arms or blazon of the University of Oxford, McKerrow 285 
Printed at Oxford by JOSEPH BARNES, Printer to the University. 1591.   

TO THE RIGHT HONOURABLE ARTHURE LORD GREY OF WILTON, Knight of the most honourable order of the Garter, his especial good Lord and Patron, Thomas Spark Wisheth all good perseverance in Christian courage and constancy in the profession and furtherance of God's sincere truth, with all other ornaments of true nobility, to God's glory, our comfort, and his own heart, good contentation now and ever.  
ALthough (Right Honourable) when I had first perused this treatise of john de Albines, I found it thorough out a most bitter invective & a malicious declamation, written only of purpose to deface & disgrace amongst the simple, both our religion, & the ministers, & professors thereof: yet finding withal as I did, & as any indifferent man that reads it shall, that neither for matter nor manner of writing, there is any new thing of any importance in it, which hath not been, before ever this discourse of his saw the light, often & that far more substantially urged by some other of that side, & therefore which hath not also heretofore been as often fully & effectually answered by some or other of ours: I not only judged this to be the reason, when it having now been amongst us in english these 16. or 17. years, none hitherto had vouchsafed it any further particular answer, but also (though urged as your Honour knoweth to frame unto it a special & direct answer) I could yet hardly be brought to think it necessary (so basely I esteemed of it) to afford it any other answer, then either a few marginal notes that when I first read it I bestowed upon it, or from point to point, as it were in a table to have showed the reader, where and by whom he might read the same thing long ago, & often objected on the one side, & answered by the other, which might have been in one sheet of paper very well dispatched. Howbeit in the end calling to mind what your Lordship told me, concerning the opinion that our poor seduced countrymen seem secretly to have amongst themselves of it, as you learned by one of their own speeches had thereof unto yourself in acquainting you first with the book, and marking how not only by publishing it in english, but also by entitling it both in the forehead, & over every leaf a notable discourse against heresies, they themselves have plainly showed that they have it in no base account, & finding it also since to be the judgement of a certain learned man of ancient and long experience even of our own side, now this last year published in print, that the having of this very book so long in secret amongst them unanswered, hath been one great cause of the apostasy of so many young men as of late years in this our country have revolted from the truth to popery: at the last I resolved with myself, (though I know that when I had done what I could herein, that I should be found to have said little or nothing not said & written aswell before by some one or other of our side) that yet your Lordship's request made unto me to answer it, as fully and directly as I could, when you first showed me the book & how you came by it, was & is such, as that (both of duty to yourself particularly for sundry causes, & to the church of Christ generally, for that by this means many may see together an answer to that, which otherwise in great part either they might chance never to hit of in any other writer of ours, or else be driven to search more, & those further than it was likely they would or could) I was bound to satisfy in as good sort as any way conveniently I could. Having therefore encouradgement by these reasons to take it in hand, & having now by God's grace finished it in manner as you see, I present the same unto your Honour as an undoubted token of my dutiful affection towards you, beseeching you not only to take the pains as your leisure serveth you to peruse it over yourself, but also desiring you to be unto it such a patron, as that it coming abroad thus by your provocation, it may have your best protection and countenance, to pass up and down openly and boldly, both in the view of friends and foes unto it. There was prefixed before John de Albines book, which your honour delivered me, a long preface to the reader, made as it should seem, by the publisher thereof in english, and there was annexed unto it in the later end an offer of a catholic (as he is there termed) to a learned protestant, consisting of two and twenty demands and six signs of false prophets, heretics, and schismatics: the preface I have answered, and the answer thereunto I have placed next unto my answer unto Albines' book itself: somewhat also I have annexed (that answer of mine to his book finished) in the latter end, to show the vanity and childishness of those things, which the author hath uttered in the application of those six signs to us: but to that which he hath written concerning those two and twenty demands I have said nothing. And indeed, because otherwise the book was grown far greater than I imagined at the first it would, I have not at all inserted that offer nor any part thereof. The reason of my not meddling at all with those two and twenty demands, and not troubling this my book at all with any part of that offer, is, that Doctor Fulke long ago hath answered those demands, and that also now of late Master Crowley hath at large answered, both them and that which is added concerning those signs. Doctor Fulkes answer thereunto may be had under the title of an answer of a Christian protestant, to the proud Challenge of a popish Catholic, and it is prefixed commonly before his book written in confutation of Allens of Purgatory. Indeed concerning the six signs he saith nothing, not because of any greater matter in them then in the rest, but because at the first they were not published with the other: The demands though he have answered shortly according to his manner, yet so sharply and effectually he hath done it, that, if the Challenger were a man of his word, he continued not long after a popish Catholic. Master Crowleys answer to the whole offer word for word, as it was annexed to John de Albines book, is extant under the title of a deliberate answer to a rash offer etc. and it was printed by john Charlewoode in London 1588. They both have with their answer set down the words of the offerer. The travels of these two men have eased both me & this book of mine of meddling any further than I have said with that Challenger: and the rather because since he had his first answer, we never yet heard that he had either skill or will to reply. I might well enough, considering the largeness and sufficiency of Master Crowleys answer thereunto, have omitted that which I further have said to answer his six signs not touched by Doctor Fulke, but that what I have written thereabout was written before I saw Master Crowleys answer, and that I thought it not amiss to let it stand, that so betwixt us three the whole thus might be twice answered. Though it were Master Crowley (who as I noted before) in the first leaf of his book making answer to this offer, that gave that judgement that john de Albines book had been the cause of so much apostasy of late here amongst us, yet he, as he there shows, would not bestow time in answering of it, because supposing by the title it was written by a Frenchman, & therefore either in french or latin, he thought that either Beza or some other french protestant had done it already sufficiently. This when I red first, it caused me to be the slacker both in finishing and publishing this answer of mine. Yet in the end forasmuch as this was now amongst us in English, and therefore in his opinion had hurt so much and so many English persons, and I could never learn of any certainty, that in any other language it had been directly answered by any: I thought it needful and the best way (whether any such answer in any other tongue had been made unto it elsewhere or not) to prevent as much as may be any further such danger amongst us by it, to accompany such poison with his fit counterpoison, that is, such an English popish discourse with an English christian answer. And the rather because howsoever by the title there is show that the author was a Frenchman, yet indeed I can hardly be persuaded that he was so. For his publisher in English taking leisure as he hath to trouble his reader with a long tedious and frivolous preface, hath not therein so much as secretly once insinuated unto us, in what language the author wrote it, yea he hath not once mentioned any translation of it, either by himself or any other, the consideration whereof together with sundry phrases and matters contained in the book, makes me rather think that some of our own fugitives, English jesuits, or seminary priests indeed have made it, than any such Archdeacon of Tolosa in France, as is pretended. But howsoever it be in this respect, it is not much material, and therefore I have not been herein curious, for these my reasons notwithstanding in all this my answer unto him, I frame my speech as to the author whose name it bears. And howsoever I may doubt of his person and country, of this I am certain whosoever he were, French or English, the son of that bondwoman, Ishmael, was never cunninger in persecuting the son of the free-woman, Isaac, with scoffs & mocks, than the author thereof was by the same means, to do what might be done, to vex and grieve us. Whosoever he was, the right popish vain & spirit of writing he had. For in so short a piece of work (I am persuaded by that you have viewed him over together with this answer of mine) your Lordship will be of opinion, that never any of that faction went beyond him, in shameful begging always the things most in question, in subtle slipping from the matters undertaken to prove, into other more easy for him & not in question, in false quoting & abusing the testimonies which he alleges, or in barrenness of matter or method, in such copy of swelling, bragging, and triumphing words. Sure I am for my own part, though I know these be the common ornaments of popish writers, that I never red any whose book consisted so wholly of these as this of his. But to leave him as he is, whosoever he was, and to return unto your Lordship, once again I dedicate and offer this my poor labour, unto your honourable view & protection, which I do not because the truth of god, which I have therein taught and defended, standeth need of the patronage of man. For god the author thereof can and will defend and protect that, though all the great men in the world should band themselves against it, but for divers and sundry other reasons justly me moving thereunto. One is (which I have touched already) that of right the dedication hereof appertaineth to you, because I had never taken it in hand, but by your Lordship's motion & persuasion. An other is, that you since my coming to the place where I am, for these eleven years last passed, have always been, & yet are, a most loving & fatherly patron to my ministry, me, and mine: by which right, though that former reason had not been, your honour may worthily challenge, not only in this, but also in all other, such poor fruits of mine, growing from me thus nourished and cherished under your lordships patronage, greater interest than this which I offer you now herein: But if neither of these two reasons had been, yet you being the man you are, that is by the grace & goodness of God as far as you are known, (which is very far) amongst the godly and truly religious, a man by birth honourable, for martial prowess more, and for gifts of sound learning, religion, and virtue most of of all to be honoured and esteemed, even that would have drawn me, though otherwise I had been a mere stranger unto you, by this means to have sought to have testified my dutiful and hearty good affection towards you. For piety joined with Christian nobility hath been the ancient cause, why the godly learned in ancient times have dedicated their works to such, as they have judged truly qualified therewith, doubtless thereby both the better to encourage them, to whom they dedicated their labours to proceed and go on in the good course they had begun, and thereby to provoke others to imitate their good example, that the like honourable opinion may by such also be conceived of them, & likewise when occasion should serve to their comfort testified publicly of them in the church of God. What else moved Ambrose to dedicate his books of faith and the spirit to Gratian the Emperor? What else caused Lactantius to dedicate his divine institu●●ons to Constantine, or what else induced the holy evangelist S. Luke, to dedicate his history of the acts of the Apostles to noble Theophilus? It was doubtless great honour unto these men in their ●imes in the churches of Christ, that thus Am●rose, Lactantius, and Luke testified their good liking of them. Wherefore though I be no body in comparison of those, & therefore hereby unable to ●onour you as those did them, yet being but as I ●m, give me leave (my good Lord) as far as the credit of my poor testimony will stretch, to testify that way my good will according to their example towards you. And thus presuming of your favourable acceptation of this my offer, I cease from any further troubling you at this time, beseeching (as always I pray and will for you) the Lord of heaven and earth in these busy, dangerous, and sinful days, so inwardly to encourage and strengthen your noble heart, and the heart also of your right virtuous Lady and dutiful wife, as that you both, and all yours, may be so adorned, decked, and beautified with all necessary and comfortable gifts and graces of knowledge, faith, zeal, and sincerity in Gods holy religion, and with all true virtues both of body and mind ready always to be showed in your life and conversation, that you may all go on and finish your days most constantly and comfortably, in all true Honour and happiness from generation to generation, to god's glory, the churches needful example, & to your own eternal salvation. Amen.  
Your Honours always at commandment most ready: THOMAS SPARK.   


The preface to the Reader.  
PLutarch a noble Philosopher, 
a This preface for the most part of it might a protestant write against the popish church, heresies, and prelate's.  and a diligent Historician, writeth in the life of Demetrius a king of Macedon, that when an old woman came to him, beseeching him to hear her speak, and he made answer that he had no leisure, the woman looking upon him, said to him again with a loud voice: why, have you no leisure 〈◊〉 rule as a king should? Which words so pierced the kings heart, and so ●●eatly prevailed in him, that he forthwith gave her audience, and from ●●at day, none came to him for any matter, but gently, and with all diligence he did hear them, and discuss their causes. boisterously were ●●●se words spoken of a subject, and not with that reverence that was ●●eete to be given to a king. Notwithstanding, as Cicero witnesseth in ●●e second of his Tusculans: Tristis res est dolour, sine dubio, aspera, ●mara, inimica naturae, ad patiendum tolerandumque difficilis: ●orowe is a grievous thing, without doubt sharp, bitter, and an enemy to ●ature, hard to suffer and forbear. Sorrow (as I suppose) constrained ●he silly woman to speak as she did, & veras exprimere voces, and ●o utter the truth. On the other side consider, not only the gentle nature of this noble Prince, but also his great wisdom, in considering ●othing to be more seemly for a governor, then to hear men's causes indifferently, and to see all wrongs redressed. Nihil (saith the same Plutarch) tam egregium tamque proprium Regis esse videtur, quàm justiciae opus, Nothing is so excellent and so properly pertaining to him that is a magistrate, as justice. I have red that the Tribunes, which were officers chosen for the defence of the Commons of Rome, had their gates or doors never shut, neither by day, nor by night, in token that thither might be the recourse of all them that had need of succour. So ought every governor, whether he be spiritual or temporal, to be a succour, and as it were a castle and a fortress to them that be under his tuition. Dion Cassius in his ●ookes that he wrote de principe, amongst other precepts, willeth chief●y and above all things, that whosoever be the head of the people, be a diligent worshipper and follower of God: next, that he be loving to his subjects, if he will have them to be faithful to him, and love him as subjects should their Prince. For it is not of likelihood, said Dion, neither doth nature permit, but that he that loveth, should be loved, when we see dogs to fawn, and horses to neye to them, of whom they be cherished. Again, he would have such rulers to call themselves shepherds and feeders of men, rather than otherwise. So Homer calleth a king pastorem populi, a shepherd & a feeder of the people. And Plato in his Dialogue called Minos, writeth, that Minos & Radamanthus, which gave laws to the men of Crete, were the true shepherds of men, which was not spoken of so noble a Philosopher without a just cause: for nothing doth more nourish, maintain & uphold a common wealth than law, which, as Tully in secundo de natura deorum sayeth, est recti praeceptio, pravique depulsio, a commander of that which is good and honest, & an expulser of all that is nought and unhonest. Now, as a shepherds care is, to see his sheep fed in wholesome pastures, & to be kept safe from wolves & all other beasts that would weary & destroy them: & if any in the flock be infected with any outward scab, or inward malady, to remedy it betime: or if the contagion admit no help, but is incurable, to have such a one away from the flock, that he hurt none of them that be whole: Even so must he that will be a shepherd of men, study for the good ordering and quietness of the multitude, over whom he hath charge, and that all enormities that might disturb a common wealth, whether it be spiritual or civil be expelled, and that all faults be redressed with due correction, using lenity and severity, after as hope or despair of amendment shall appear. Neither hath the name of a shepherd lacked his pre-eminence at any time. That good Abel, ad cuius munera Deus respexit, to whose gifts and sacrifice God had respect, was a shepherd: Abraham, in whole seed God promised that all nations should be blessed, was a shepherd: so was Isaac his son, and jacob his nephew, & his sons also. Moses' that noble captain, and deliverer of God his people, was a shepherd in the land of Madian. David, of whom 
b Here is Stephen named for Paul. Act. 13.  S. Stephen said, that God gave this testimony: inveni david filium less, virum secundum cor meum, qui faciet omnes voluntates meas: I have found David the son of jesse, a man after mine own heart and mind, which shall do all my will. 
c There is no mention of Stephen.  Act. 13. This noble king David was a shepherd. These I suppose almighty God would have to be ensamples to all them that be in authoriritie, for as Paul saith: Quaecunque scripta sunt, ad nostram eruditionem scripta sunt, All things that are written, are written for our instruction, that as they fed that silly innocent cattle, so should all Magistrates that profess his son's name, learn to govern the people in the obedience of his doctrine, that they might be innocentes manibus, & puro cord nec iurantes in dolo proximo suo, Innocents of their hands, and of a pure heart, which use no deceit towards their neighbours, but in all their doings show themselves to be, veras oves pascuae Christi, the true sheep of the pasture of jesus Christ, who sayeth: Bonus pastor animam suam dat pro ovibus suis, A good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep. Few words, but full of pith: And never could more things be spoken more compendiously. For what will he refuse to do? what labour, what travail, what pain will he forsake, which for that performance of that he goeth about, will not spare his own life? 
a This being true as it is, thereupon it followeth, that your popish Priests and prelate's, who neither have skill nor will to perform this duty, are no true shepherds.  If a good shepherd setteth so great store by his sheep, if he love them so tenderly, that he will rather lose his life then to see them in any danger, what will he not do else for them? How can it be otherwise, but that he will see his flock fed in wholesome pastures? how can it be thought, that he will not tarry with them to keep them from wolves, from dogs that fall to biting of them, and from other like ravenous beasts? Who would imagine him to be so negligent, that he will not in the evening bring them home to the cote or fold? Will he not, trow you, if any be strayed, go seek him out, and bring him again to his fellows? If any be sick, will he not see him helped with all diligence? See therefore what a great matter our Saviour did comprehend and fold up, as it were, and knit together in a bundle, all that can be desired in a good herdesman. O that governors whom god hath put in authority, per quem reges regnant, by whom kings do reign, who bad Peter, if he loved him, to feed his sheep, who hath also constitute under him feeders upon the earth, some spiritual, some temporal, O, I say, that they would diligently look upon these words: A good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep, and seriously ponder in their mind what a charge is hid in this short sentence, how many things, princeps pastorum, the prince of shepherds, as Peter calleth him, doth require of them whom he hath made herdsmen under him, whose duty is to be good pastors and faithful feeders like to their master. O that they would call to their mind, that they must at length departed hence, and come where it shall be said to every one of them: Red rationem villicationis tuae, Give account of thy bailiwick, Come forth and show how thou hast fed my flock that I committed to thy hands: Thou Bishop, how hast thou visited thy diocese, what Parsons, what Vicars hast thou admitted? Thou Archdeacon, how often hast thou visited and seen every curate to do his duty? how hast thou redressed all enormities & slanders within thy jurisdiction? Thou parson, thou vicar, thou curate, how hast thou fed thy flock with good ensamples of charity & virtuous living, with keeping of hospitality to thy power, by preaching wholesome doctrine, in reverently ministering my Sacraments? Thou king, how hast thou ruled thy Realm? What laws hast thou made for the setting forth of my glory, for the extirpation of heresies, for maintenance of equity, for punishment of wrong, for provision, that things may be sold at a competent price, that covetous men make no dearth to their condemnation, when I give plenty? Thou Lord, how hast thou governed under thy prince? Thou man of worship, how hast thou endeavoured to have quietness kept, and the prince's laws to be obeyed? Thou justice, how hast thou ministered right indifferently to all persons? Thou Mayor or head officer in any City or Town, how hast thou kept thyself clear from perjury? How hast thou seen good order observed, and all idleness and dissolute manners to be banished? Finally, thou, whatsoever officer or Magistrate thou be, how hast thou regarded the common wealth, & preferred it afore thy private lucre or commodity? O that these things were considered: for as sure as God liveth, these accounts will he call upon straightly. None shall escape, Cui multum datur (as S. Gregory saith) multum ab eo quaeretur, He that hath much given him, shall make a great account thereof, and much shall be of him required: And at that day percase he shall reckon himself most fortunate and happy, that had least in this world, and least to do. And he peradventure most unfortunate, that hath most to do in this world, unless he order it well, unless he order it righteously, justly, and ordinately.  
Now, good Reader, thou hast heard, that Christ saith: Bonus pastor animam svam dat pro ovibus suis, And to put thee out of doubt who is this good shepherd, he saith: Ego sum pastor bonus, & cognosco oves meas, & cognoscunt me meae. I am the good shepherd, which will give my life for my sheep, by my death to purchase them life, that as I will rise, and die no more, so shall they after their bodily death arise at the last day, never to die any more, but to live always with my father and me. I know my sheep, not all only that they be mine, but I so know them for mine, that I will be their succour in their tribulations, I will strengthen them in their persecutions, I will receive them into my joy and glory, I know them, and they know me. This is then required of their sheep, that they know their shepherd. Three properties must be in every man or woman that shall have this worthy name to be called a sheep of Christ. 
b These being as indeed they are the true properties of christs sheep, thereupon it must needs follow, that he hath but few sheep in the popish flock.  The first property is, that our Saviour saith, that his sheep do know him. This knowledge have Christ's sheep of him, that by his godhead he is their father, by his manhood he is their brother, & by his benefits he is their loving Lord & master. 
c This and your doctrine of merits, satisfaction, and other by means besides Christ, to earn your salvation by cannot stand together.  They know it is he, & none other, that hath made their peace with God his father: Ipse enim est pax nostra, for he is our peace (Ad Ephesios secundo) he hath gotten us forgiveness of our sins, he hath delivered us out of the bondage of the devil, he hath purchased heaven for us, he is to us Turris fortitudinis, the tower of our strength. The second property of Christ's sheep is, to hear their shepherds voice, and to give no ear to the voice of any stranger. You will ask me peradventure, how you should hear him, 
d This is more than ever all the sort of you can prove.  which although he be verily and bodily here with us in the Sacrament of the Altar, yet in his human form he is ascended up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of his father? Whereunto I answer, that we must hear his voice sounding by the mouth of his 
e True: but there by strait is not ment yours, which along time hath been an impudent harlot.  Church, which is the very true spouse of jesus Christ, Quam sanctificavit, mundans eam lavacro aquae in verbo vitae, whom he hath sanctified and purified with the bath of water in the word of life, ut exhiberet ipse sibi gloriosam ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugam, to make it a glorious Church to himself without spot or wrinkle (Ad Ephesios'. 5.) 
f Thus you take for granted that your synagogue is this church of of Christ, and that we have departed from the church of Christ, both which are most false.  If we hear the church, we hear Christ: for as the holy Bishop & Martyr Irenaeus writeth in the forty Chapter of his third book, Vbi ecclesia, ibi & spiritus, & ubi spiritus dei, illic ecclesia & omnis gratia, spiritus autem veritas where the Church is, there is the spirit of God, & where the spirit of God is, there is the Church & all grace, & the spirit is truth. Wherefore as the same godly father writeth in the forty and three Chapter of his fourth book, we be bound to be obedient to the Prelates of the Church, his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis, to them that have their succession from the Apostles. Reliquos verò (saith he) qui absistunt a 
g This principal succession is succession in truth which you are gone from long ago.  principali successione, & quocunue loco colliguntur, suspectos habere quasi haereticos oportet, As for all other that go away from the 
g Which is in truth that which your synagogue long ago hath done.  principal succession, we ought to suspect them as heretics. These are Irenaeus words in the place now alleged. And Christ saith himself: Qui vos audit, me audit, He that heareth you, heareth me. Wherefore, if we will hear Christ, as his father hath commanded us, Ipsum audite, Hear him, Matth. 17. than must we hear the Church. 
h These things are true of the true and pure church of Christ, listening to and following the voice of her husband, and not otherwise, and therefore not of your synagogue.  The Church is our most holy Mother, whom we ought to have in great reverence, and to commit ourselves wholly unto her, to hear her, and like obedient children, to do what she biddeth us. What the Church holdeth in matters of religion, that must we hold: what the Church prescribeth, it is our duty to follow: what the Church forbiddeth, that are we bound, under pain of damnation to avoid in any wise. 
a Therefore is it, that we dare not believe your Romish spirit, because we trying it by the scriptures, find it contrary to the spirit that was author of them.  S. john in the fourth Chapter of his first Epistle biddeth us beware, that we believe not every spirit, but to try the spirits, whether they be of God or not. Then, how can they be of God, which go from the Church? S. Augustine in the exposition of this Epistle of S. john, tractatu primo, writeth thus: 
b This you have done, therefore by his rule how can you be in Christ.  Qui ecclesiam relinquit, quomodo est in Christo, qui in membris Christi non est? Quomodo est in Christo, qui in corpore Christi non est? He that leaveth the Church, how is he in Christ, that is not in the members of Christ? how is he in Christ, that is not in the body of Christ? By the which S. Augustine affirmeth, that the Church, which is the spouse of Christ, is also the mystical body of Christ, & Christ is the head of the Church. As many therefore, as be Christ his sheep, they hear their shepherds voice in the Church. They will not hear the voice of strangers, 
c You should have exemplified in your own doctors and then had you said well.  as of Luther, Oecolampadius, Zuinglius, Caluin, and like heretics, which for all their gay words, and crying still, Christ and the Gospel, may have every one of them, these verses of Persius in his fift Satire worthily spoken to him. 
Pelliculam veterem retines, & front politus  
Astutan vapido seruas sub pectore vulpem.   
Thou keepest still thine old hyde upon thee, and bearing a fair face, thou wrappest a wily fox under thy vaporous breast. 
d even your pope's and doctor's for these many years. Act. 20.  These be they, of whom Saint Peter speaketh in the second Chapter of his second Epistle: Magistri mendaces, qui introducunt sectas perditionis, Lying masters, bringing in sects of perdition, and denying the God that bought them. howbeit, since it is so, as Paul sayeth, There will be always ravening wolves, non parcentes gregi, not sparing the flock, And among our own selves will men arise, speaking perverse things, And such is our frail nature, that as the witty Horace sayeth: 
e And therefore the Romish strumpet holds out her poison in a golden Cup. Reu. 17.  Decipimur specie recti,  
We be soon deceived under the colour of truth. It behoveth us to follows the counsel of our head & principal master jesus Christ, which teacheth us an excellent document of heavenly philosophy, saying: 
f And therefore we had need to take heed of you.  Attendite vobis à falsis Prophetis, take ye heed to yourselves, & beware of false Prophets, which come unto you, in vestimentis ovium, in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are Lupi rapaces, Ravening wolves: We must, I say, beware, that we be not deluded, and under colour of evangelical variety, be made to receive pernicious and damnable heresies, as alas the more pity, hath miserably chanced to our noble Realm of 
g This is true of England in respect of Qu. Mary's days, and so then truly we might & did say unto you as you here now falsely say unto us.  England, under colour of bringing us to truth, leading us await from the truth, to the utter decay of all godliness, & setting up of counterfeit religion. 
a Even this is the state of your Church in deed.  The weed hath now overgrowen the corn, evil, hurtful, and soulequelling weeds of heresy have overgrown, oppressed, puled down to the ground, and utterly choked the good corn of christian religion, and all ecclesiastical constitutions. 
b Thus we say & that justly to our people in respect of you.  Al you therefore that have ●een seduced, and taken weeds for wholesome flowers, beware lest with the ●ench of such rotten weeds, ye infect your soul to everlasting damnation. The infallible truth is daily opened unto you, 
c It doth not at all appear by the discourse that there is any falsehood at all in our Religion.  The falsehood is mightily convinced, as shall plainly appear in the discourse hear following. Stand no more in the defence of that, which you may easily know and see with your eyes, if ye will not be wilfully and obstinately blind, ●o be nothing but deceit: 
d These titles do rightly fit the popish Religion.  What do I call it, deceit? nay, I call it a most venomous poison to the soul, yea, and an hellish draft of endless ●eath. 
e This part your papists play now in England in being recusants of all sound & good means to reform them.  Play not the part of a mad man, of whom Horace wri●eth in the second book of his Epistles, that he was angry with his friends, ●or that they had caused him to be healed of his frenzy, and restored to his wits again: Be not angry, that you may (if you will) be brought out of the fowl mist, into the clear air, from darkness to ●ight, from an horrible frenzy to godly wisdom. Follow the wholesome counsel of Saint Paul in the fourth to the Ephesians,  non simus amplius pueri, qui fluctuemus, & circumferamur quovis vento doctrinae, per versutiam hominum, per astutiam qua nos adoriuntur, ut imponant nobis, That we be no longer children, and fleet two and fro, carried hither and thither with every blast of doctrine, by the wiliness and craftiness of men, wherewith they set upon us to deceive us. There have been a great many 
f In deed so many such Jesuits and Seminaries you have sent us  such sprongen up in our Realm of late, which have taught us wrong Lessons: Emendemus ergò in melius, Let us amend therefore. The third property is, that the sheep do follow their shepherd: This property is of so great importance, that without it the other two cannot avail. It is not Enough to know Christ to be our refuge, our help and secure: 
g This is true as long as the church retaineth the two former properties, which your long ago hath lost.  It is not enough with that also to hear Christ speaking to us in his Church, except we follow Christ & his Church, & show ourselves willingly to do that which the Church commandeth us: We must fast, when the Church commandeth us, & as it biddeth us: We must pray as the Church instructeth us, We must do those good works that the Church teacheth us to do. In obeying the Church, we obey God: if we be disobedient to the Church, we disobey God. For as Chrysostome saith upon the first Epistle to the Corinthians, ut corpus & caput unus est homo, ita unum est ecclesia & Christus, As the body and the head is but one man, so is Christ and his Church one thing. Do therefore as the wise man biddeth thee, Audi disciplinam patris tui, & ne dimittas legem matris tuae, Hear the discipline of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: I mean, thy mother the 
h Holy Church hold you there, for so long you say nothing for your unholy and filthy Church.  holy church, whom as many as forsake, they forsake God also. For as holy Cyprian writeth de simplicitate praelatorum: Habere non potest Deum patrem, qui ecclesiam non habet matrem, He cannot have God to be his father, that knoweth not the church for his mother. 
i Let this rule be followed for the questions betwixt us, & your church shall be found in those points to have set a broach those things that those most ancient Churches never were acquainted withal.  Ye may see here evidently, that this holy man would have us to be obedient unto, and diligently to keep, the ordinances of our fathers, and not to institute every ●●y new fashions, as men most unconstant, and full of new fangles. The Lacedæmonians are praised, that they suffered no strange ware to be brought into their city, whereby the citizens might be effeminated and corrupted in their manners, and for the same cause they extol greatly Lycurgus, which made the same law. Now, if the Lacedæmonians were so serious observers of their old laws and customs, what a shame shall this be to us christian men (which were not taught of Lycurgus, but of Christ himself) daily to alter and change, not content with those rites and ceremonies that were ordained ancient time out of memory? Irenaeus teacheth in his third book against the heresies of Valentine, and such other, whose words taken out of his fourth Chapter of the said book, I will briefly rehearse: Si quae de aliqua modica quaestione disceptatio esset, nun oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere ecclesias, in quibus Apostoli conversati sunt, & ab eis de praesenti quaestione, sumere quod certum & reliquidum est? If any controversy should be of any question, were it never so little, must it not be meet to have our recourse unto the most ancient churches, in the which the Apostles were conversant, & of them to receive the plain certainty thereof? It followeth, Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquislent nobis, nun oportebat ordinem se qui traditionis, quá tradiderunt his quibus committebant ecclesias? But what if the Apostles left 
k If indeed they had left no scriptures then that had been a good course but now seeing they ha●e, what their tradition was, is best learned by them. But the better to hide your folly in citing these words, you subtilely translate scriptures nothing written of that matter.  nothing written of that matter, must we not follow the tradition of them, to whose governance they committed the churches? Here have you the mind of Irenaeus, who was near unto Christ his time: for as S. 
l Here again the question is begged, for you take for granted that your prelate's are lawfully called and ours not, both which we deny.  Hierome testifieth in an Epistle to one Theodora, he was Disciple to Papias, who was S. john the Evangelists scholar. He would have men to be taught of Christ, of his Apostles and their successors, and 
m Of the same mind are we, & therefore Christian men are not to listen to your prelate's.  not of every one, which rashly and without lawful authority taketh upon him to be a teacher. Christian men should be obedient to christian ordinances, and follow that doctrine that is allowed by them that are lawfully called, and have the censure of doctrine committed to them. Such were the Apostles, called and put in authority by Christ. Such were they, 
n But such have not been your Romish teachers these many hundred years. Witness your own writers who show how unlawfully many of them came by their places.  to whom these again gave the charge over any faithful congregation. Such are all they which have so from time to time ●eene lawfully called by them, that have power to put others in authority, and so succeeded in due order, else, Quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur, How shall they preach, except they be sent, as ●t is written in the tenth to the Romans, and sent by them which have authority to send. Did not Saint Paul for that purpose leave Titus in Crete? Did he not also give Timothy charge to lay hands too quickly on no man? To these that be thus lawfully ordained and called to have cure and charge of souls, ye are bound to give an ear: by these ye must be ruled in matters of Religion, and as obedient children to their spiritual fathers. And this biddeth Saint Hierome, writing to Nepotian: 
o True and necessary as long as the pastor is such as Paul wild Titus to ordain: but this helpeth yours little.  Esto subiectus pontifici tuo, & quasi animae parentem suspice, Be subject to thy Bishop, and reverence him as thy soul's father. The same lesson teacheth Chrysostome in an Homylie, De recipiendo Severiano, where he beginneth thus: Sicuti capiti corpus cohaerere necessarium est, ita ecclesiam sacerdoti, & principi populum, As it is of necessity, that the body cleave to the head, so it is likewise of necessity, that the congregation cleave to their Priest and spiritual ruler, and the people to their Prince. And within a few words after, he allegeth for the confirmation of this matter, the Apostle writing thus to the Hebrews, in the thirteenth Chapter: 
p This rule is not general without exception. For Christ hath said take heed of false Prophets etc.  Obedite praepositis vestris, obtemperate eyes, quia ipsi pervigilant pro vobis, quasi pro animabus vestris rationem reddituri, Obey them that have the oversight of you, and do as they would have you, for they watch for your sakes, as they which shall give accounts for your souls. This obedience doth our Saviour require of all men, saying: Qui vos audit, me audit, He that heareth you, heareth me. This obedience to Christ's Church hath continued throughout all Christendom time out of mind. And if the authority of the learned and holy fathers ought to bear sway and prevail, as of right it ought to do indeed: Arrogantium enim hominum est, maiorum suorum authoritatem aspernari, & se illis ingenio vel sapientia anteponere: For it is the manner and property of proud arrogant persons to contemn the authority of their elders, & to prefer themselves before them in wit or learning, If the consent of all christian Regions should be regarded, prob●bilia (saith Aristotle in the first Chapter of the first book of his Topickes) quae videntur omnibus vel plurimis, Those things are probable, which all men, or at the least, the most part do judge to be so. If the long continuance of time must be of importance, In his enim (as witnesseth S. Hilary upon the hundred and eighteen psalm) tanquàm in coelo verbum dei permanet, in quibus hoc verbum non offenditur, In them doth the word of God abide, among whom that word is not offended. 
a This is but a vain brag that you have these three, as shall appear I hope sufficiently in the answer to Albines' treatise. For you have not one of them in such sort, as that thereupon you may conclude as you do.  If these three, I say, The authority of the learned Fathers, The common consent of Christian Regions, The long continuance of time, may be a sufficient testimony for the verity, we have the true Gospel, & the true sense of it: 
b These are but shameless beggings of the things in question, and only your bare and therefore vain words, for none of them you shall ever prove true.  Our Religion is the very Christian Religion, The order of Ceremonies that the Catholic Church doth use, is the right order, Our fasting and praying is according to the Scriptures, Our Church is the true and lawful spouse of Christ, from the which as many as separate themselves, they are no sheep of Christ's fold, they are reprobate persons, they are the children of Belial, they are imps of hell. 
c What then? is the precedent of our next & last fathers yea though for some hundred or more years such as we may not vary from? The vanity of this argument see cap. 38. of my answer.  You know what order your fathers kept, how they lived, and how they believed: You are not ignorant, how you have been brought up, instructed and trained in the laws of Christ. Whosoever goeth about to infringe or break any part of that 
d You must prove the order godly and laudable or else your assertion is false  godly order, of that ancient custom and laudable usage, he is an heretic, an enemy to God, a murderer to man's soul, a disturber of the common wealth, a subverter of all honest discipline, and therefore most unworthy to live among men.  
I 
e This complaint hath most just & apparent ground especially amongst men of your own faction, though it cannot be denied but that every where there is so lamentable cause thereof, but yet this preiudiceth our religion which condemns all imoiety, no more than you would have it to do yours.  have heard, read and seen many things, yet can I not read, bear, or see any world more contaminate and prone to all kind of vices than this our age is. And howbeit afore our days, there have been in all times and ages, men and women very vicious and monstrous in their living, yet then virtue was virtue, and vice was vice: But now in our corrupt time, we have lost the true names and use of all things, and virtue with us is taken for vice, and contrarily, vice is counted for virtue. They that be studious of modesty, observers of temperancy, and lovers of sobriety, they be now a days called Pinchpennies, and such that hunger droppeth out of their noses. 
f This is false amongst us, if by catholic you understand, as you should, sound and true religion.  If any be virtuous, & followers of the Catholic, which is the true Religion, they be called pharisees & papists: The discreet man he is called an hypocrite, and the small talker a fool and an ignorant person. On the other side, they that lead their lives in all kind of riot, they be called handsome men, men of the right making, and such as can tell how to keep honest men's company. Again, the statelier that one goeth, the ●igher that he looketh, and the stouter and malapertlier that he speaketh, be more is he praised among the worldlings for a wise man, who will not ●uffer himself to be overtrodden and made a laughing stock to every ras●all. With such vain glorious praises be such proud Thrasoes extolled ●nd magnified of the more part, and no small number are given to flattery, and enhausing of Clawbacks', that never could that saying of Te●ence be better verified than it is now: Obse quium amicos, veritas o●odium parit, To hold up men's yea and their nay, in holding with the bare, and running with the hound, getteth a man friends, but he that will lay flattery aside, & tell the plain truth, shall get nothing but hatred. Thus in these days vice is extolled, & virtue contemned: Ill rule is made ●f, and good rule neglected.  
O heart dissembled, which under colour to be just & true, canst cloak unto us hypocrisy for devotion, ambition for gentleness, covetousness for competency, cruelty for zeal, bold babbling without learning for eloquence, flourishing Rhetoric without fruit or reason, folly for gravity, wiliness without wit, and fleshly wanton liberty, for liberty of the Gospel. This is nothing else but the devils drift, always covering his poison under some taste of sugar: Fallit enim vitium specie virtutis & umbra: 
g This invective speech we may justly use of you and your side.  For the sum & end of all their false doctrine, is nothing else but malice with murder, to the overthrow of Christ's Religion, and the true ministers thereof. This is their sheeps clothing, for an unhappy reformation: Nam impia sub dulci melle venena latent, Under sweet honey is deadly venom hid. O blind ignorance and ignorant blindness! O cruel and damnable mischief coming from the bottomless pit of hell! O intolerable furiousness and heresy more detestable than it mate any longer be suffered! The great displeasure, the extreme vengeance, the cruel plagues of God hang over our heads, if this horrible heresy be not shortly removed from men's minds. O 
h These words justly we may break out into, in respect of the infinite blasphemies and abominations held and maintained by your side in this point.  good god, how long wilt thou suffer this intolerable abomination? It shameth me, it abhorreth me to think, that these shameless beasts are not ashamed to speak of the most blessed Sacraments of Christ's Church: who is able to express either by tongue or pen their wicked abomination? why have we a pleasure to forsake the true understanding of Gods most sacred word, and become followers and bondslaves of the devils counterfeit and deceitful expositions, & carnal reasons set out by his ministers, who in Religion are 
i This objection of the diversity of opinions, see answered at large Cap. 4.  so divided, that now they dream one thing, and now another: this day they like, tomorrow they mislike, & one is against another of them, even in the highest mystery of Christ his Religion. And no marvel, for the devil is their chief head, whom they serve, and he is full of lies, variance, division, and discord: & under him their Schoolmasters were, Hus, Luther, Zuinglius, Oecolampadius, Bucer, Melancthon, and the Archheretic Caluin, 
k Therein there is no proof that he held any one heresy.  whose heresies are confuted in the Discourse hereafter ensuing. 
l This is untrue.  These with the rest of that rabble did never agree one with another, in their doings there is no unity, no certainty at all: and therefore such masters, such scholars come of them. And this division, this unconstancy of doctrine, was a manifest token, that they were not the children of our true mother the Catholic Church, nor ministers of Christ, but the children of the devil, and ministers of Antichrist, yea, very Antichrists. 
m Which that you papists be is most certain, the contrariety of your doctrine with the ancient catholic e Church considered, which I have noted cap. 17. & 29 of my answer.  For whosoever (saith S. Augustine) is gone from the unity of the Catholic Church, he is become an Antichrist? These Antichrists have borne a great stroke now too long time in our Realm of England, in whom is no constancy, no steadfastness of religion and doctrine: These are they that have damnably deceived you, and have with their damnable preachings enticed you from Church to Church, from an heavenly Church to a malignant Church: from a loving mother, 
n This is false.  to a flattering harlot: from the condition of grace, to the state of perdition: 
o These words remaining we justly say to, and of you.  from truth to falsehood, from faithful believing to carnal reasoning, from saving Christ to deceiving Antichrist. But (good Reader) beware, be not deceived, & be not ashamed to arise, that hast so shamefully fallen, be not ashamed to come home to your mother the Church, sith she is not ashamed to receive you: Let not folly lose the thing that grace hath so preciously offered and purchased: Let not wilfulness and blindness put out so great light as is now showed unto thee, but embrace most humbly the doctrine of our mother the catholic church, so shall you sit in the lap of so tender a mother, which will cherish you into life everlasting: Choose the best, whiles choice lieth in lot.  
What were you ashamed of your preface that you put not your name to it? Indeed it is so fond and frivolous, that you might well enough be ashamed to father it.   

An answer to the preface set before john de Albines book entitled, A notable discourse against heretics. etc.  
BEfore I take in hand to say any thing to john de Albine, or his book, I must crave of thee (gentle reader) whosoever thou art, these two things, that thou wouldst first give me leave to answer the long, tedious, and bragging preface, prefixed before his book by the publisher thereof, and that then also thou thyself, wouldst vouchsafe before thou goest any further, either to the considering what Albine hath objected, or I answered, to take the pains to read over this my answer to the said preface. And though it seem unto thee of an extraordinary length, & so somewhat discourages thee, yet the length of his considered likewise, I pray thee bear with me, and vouchsafe the reading of it thorough, before thou proceedest any further. His preface thou seest is long, but indeed so vain and frivolous it is, that though it seemeth the author thereof was some bold and impudent jesuite, or fugitive of our own country, yet such care he had of his credit, that for fear of loss thereof, he hath not thought good to put his name unto it. The vanity and weakness thereof, may even sufficiently appear by those marginal notes, that I have affixed unto it, so that if I troubled thee with no further answer unto it, I hope it neither could nor should much move thee, or any other to think any thing the better of their Church and religion, than thou didst before: yet because, neither he, nor any of his faction, for want of a further particular answer unto it, shall take occasion to persuade themselves, or other, that there is further weight and matter in it then indeed there is, I will vouchsafe some more pains about it. First therefore this I would have thee (Christian Reader) for the commendation of the authors great skill to observe, that almost all of it, is spent in proving those things which are needles, because, we teach, grant, & defend them to be truths, as fully and more fully than he or any of his side. For proof whereof, consider, that whereas the whole preface, consists in the copy and edition that I had of his in print to answer, of twenty two leaves, he spends the first eight pages in proving that Kings, Princes, and rulers both civil and ecclesiastical, must carefully administer justice according to their callings, and so be as good shepherds to them, of whom they have charge, which who doubteth of, or who ever denied amongst us? yea we teaching as we do, that Emperors, Kings, and Queens, in their kingdoms, are carefully to look to the keeping of both tables amongst their people, and that they are next under God the supreme governors of their people, aswell in causes ecclesiastical, in commanding for the good of the church and religion of Christ, as in causes civil, in commanding for the common weal and the good estate thereof, and they denying civil Magistrates any such authority in causes of the church, do not we far more fully than they teach them, how and when they may be as good shepherds to their people? Then by occasion of this former needless discourse, having alleged that john 10. to prove that a good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep, and that Christ is that good shepherd that knows his sheep, and is known of them, mark how in as many more pages he inferreth, that it is necessary that the sheep know their shepherd, that they hear his voice, and give no ear to the voice of a stranger, and lastly, that they follow and obey their shepherd: which are things also (truly taught and understood) which we most gladly teach & embrace, and for lack of which properties of Christ's sheep we constantly hold & avouch that the Romish flock these many years, hath rather been a flock of goats, then of Christ's true sheep. For if they know, as they should, that the name of the shepherd Christ were the only name whereby cometh salvation Act. 4. and that in him all things are prepared already. Math. 22. they would not set up to themselves so many names of persons and things besides him, nor hold that so many things besides those that are already prepared in him, are left to themselves and others to that end to prepare, as they do. And if they did so hear his voice, and refuse to hear the voice of strangers (as Christ's sheep ought) there neither would nor could be, so many strange doctrines, yea contrary doctrines to the voice of Christ set down in the Canonical scriptures, received & maintained amongst them, as e'er I have done with Albine I shall show there are. Likewise such followers & obeiers of the voice of Christ are they, & have they been for these 4. or 500 years speaking unto them in his word written, by the mouth of his true church & ancient sound pastors thereof, as that none ever, in a number of most weighty and material matters, more directly contraried his voice then they. Wither I have just ground and proof for my thus saying, I refer thee to that which I have written in confutation of Albines' discourse, cap. 4.17.29. & 36. And yet such is the folly of this nameless preface writer, that having thus noted these, to be the properties of Christ's true sheep, as though by and by without any further proof at all, it ought of necessity to be granted, that he and his side had all these properties, and that we of our side had never a one of them all, but were notoriously branded with the contrary marks, he triumpheth and insulteth over us, spending all the rest of his preface in railing upon us, and in persuading his reader to forsake us, and to join with him & his. So that all the rest of his preface is builded, upon a most shameful and impudent begging of all these points; that they know Christ aright, hear his voice & no other, obey him and follow him most orderly: and also of these (that his begging of that former may seem the more reasonable) that their doctrine is sound, having countenance of all ancient & holy fathers, of the consent of all Christian Regions, & prescription of time, that their prelate's are all prelate's lawfully called, having right succession, & every thing that they should have, to credit them withal, & therefore that they are such, as Christ hath commanded, to to be obeyed as himself, and lastly, that their church is the holy Catholic church, the obedient spouse of Christ, and mother of all the faithful, and that therefore it is damnation to departed from her, or to refuse to obey any of her laws and ordinances, & that with us, all things are quite contrary. All these things his reader must grant him & suppose to be true, for he hath nothing at all to prove any one of these, besides swelling words of vanity, and lofty arrogant bragging that these things are so. And therefore all these things, being the things in question betwixt us, and such, as we all, most constantly and justly have always denied, (as our writings of these points heretofore, & now this answer of mine in sundry places thereof, make manifest to any indifferent reader) thereupon it must needs follow, that whatsoever he hath alleged, either out of scripture or doctor to persuade his reader to obey their church, their prelate's, their ordinances & traditions, is shamefully abused. For compare the times when, & the persons whereof those things were written, their doctrine and doings with these, and you shall find, (witness the scriptures themselves and all sound antiquity) as much difference betwixt their church prelate's, doctrine and ordinances, and them of whom those places are to be truly understood, as there is betwixt light and darkness, the pure Church of Christ, and the impure Synagogue of Antichrist. And also, all his exhortation upon these grounds, to join with them, and all his bitter invectives against us, for refusing so to do, is as a building in the air without all foundation. And therefore is thus easily pulled down, and laid underfoot, as a thing more meet to be trampled upon, as a thing of nothing, then by any to be at all regarded. And yet as foul a fault as this is in him, it is common to him with all writers of his side, and most notoriously with this john de Albine, before whose book, he hath set this his preface. It may be, seeing his author, whom he meant to publish, and of whom he had such an opinion, that he accounted him a notable discourser against heresies, to have such a grace and dexterity, in stuffing out his book almost with nothing else, but with this beggarly begging the main questions always, that he thought his preface should not be suitable, and fit to be set before such a learned discourse, unless it were garnished & beautified with the same popish grace. And if this were his reason (than which I am sure he hath no better) he is to be borne withal, for what reason is there to the contrary, but that according to the rules of decency, the preface and the book whereunto it is a preface shall be conformable one to the other.  
And yet though this be the very method and matter (good Reader) of all this his long tedious preface, which I thus briefly have laid open before thee, the poor silly man the author thereof, seemeth to have conceived such a liking of his own doings therein, especially towards the latter end thereof, that gloriously and triumphantly he breaketh out into wonderful complaints, amplifications, and exclamations against us. Alas poor man that he was, thought he to meet with no reader, but that would grant him all these things at the first ask? Or thought he that he had so cunningly and artificially knit those things together, that no man could espy the childish looseness of them? From his first general far set and yet unnecessary discourse of the duty of all officers, he so suddenly falleth into the next, of the properties of Christ's sheep, that it was great marvel that the man ●ooke no great harm by it. But having recovered himself 〈◊〉 litie, speaking belike before his wits were well come to him, ●ee never can hit after of any thing to the purpose. For not only all his matter and words, besides a few naked assertions of his of the truth of certain points of his religion, and falsehood of ours, skipping in here and there, ●here is nothing, but, the circumstances of application altered, one of us might far more aptly and truly have written against them. But as those things sufficiently convince the man and his preface of gross folly and vanity, so if we consider, but how he hath wilfully sought to abuse his reader, in citing the ancient father Irenaeus, and others, to persuade his reader by his authority, to obey their prelate's and traditions, we shall as plainly find in the man palpable impiety. For page second, he citeth his fourth book and forty three chapter, to prove unto us now, that we must obey their Church, now speaking unto us by their prelate's, because than Irenaeus told the heretics a thousand and four hundred years ago and more (whom indeed the pastors of the Church that then was, continued sound in the purity of the apostolic doctrine) that they were to obey the pastors of the Church that had succession from the Apostles. Which any man may see, bindeth not, nor teacheth us to do the like to theirs, unless they could prove theirs to be such, as there Irenaeus speaketh of. Likewise whatsoever else in this preface of his to like purpose he hath alleged out of Irenaeus, Augustine, Chrysostome, Cyprian, Hierome, or the scriptures themselves, is abused, for that which they spoke of that pure & true Church of Christ, and her faithful ministers, that he would draw his reader to think to be spoken, even of the Church of Rome as it is now, and hath been of late years, and of her prelate's, which are in nothing almost, like either the Church or ministers that they speak of. But this is not all his fault in alleging this testimony of Irenaeus, thus to confound the prelate's and Church with the true pastors of Christ and his pure Church, a thousand four hundredth years ago, whereunto theirs are no more like than darkness is to light, but that also wilfully (the easilier belike to beguile the simple reader) he concealeth that, that immemediatly followeth the former words. Which is this: Quis●c●● ostendimus cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum, secundum placitum patris acceperunt, that is, which (as we have showed) with the succession of their Bishopric, according to the will and pleasure of God, have received the certain gift of truth, and so he having skipped over those words, which he thought, as it should seem, in his conscience, would and might be denied, not to fit their prelates, he goeth on with that that followed these words, saying, Reliquos vero qui absistunt à principal successione, & quocunquè loco colliguntur, suspectos habere tanquam haereticos oportet, which is in English, but the rest which go from the principal succession, in what place soever they be gathered together, we ought to suspect as heretics. Wherein evidently it appeareth, he left out the former words (standing in the author in the midst betwixt the former part of the sentence, and the latter here alleged by him) to make the reader believe that Irenaeus mind was, to teach men simply to obey such prelate's, without exception, as have ordinary, outward, and local succession down from the Apostles, and that that kind of succession in place and office, is the principal succession that he speaketh of, which who so hath not, ought by and by to be suspected of heresy. But indeed take all his words together and mark them, (especially those which craftily he had gelded the sentence of, in his quoting of them) and it is most clear, that Irenaeus here teacheth obedience only to such Bishops, as succeed the Apostles, in the certain gift of truth, that by principal succession, he meant nothing else but succession to the Apostles, in that gift of truth, and that therefore he would have us, to suspect all those to be heretics, that lack succession unto them in that, howsoever and wheresoever they succeed them else. Which is the very cause, why according to this rule we think no better of their popish bishops & priests, than we do (what succession soever otherwise they brag of) for that, sure we are, that long ago they are gone from this principal succession in truth. This he knew every one would perceive, if he had faithfully cited Irenaeus words as they lie, and therefore he thought best, to show how he could follow the example of that old fox Satan, who for his purpose in like manner, mangled the 91. Psalm, Math. 4. It seemeth also that these words quocunque loco colliguntur; in what place soever they be gathered together, (though he recite them in latin) he would feign have smothered, for translating the rest he omits these, doubtless because without any exception, yea even of Rome itself, thereby Irenaeus would teach, that they ought to be suspected to be heretics, that will not obey those pastors that succeed the Apostles in the gift of truth. Which indeed the Bishops of Rome, having had so little care to do this great while, if this rule of Irenaeus may be followed, they cannot possibly escape this suspicion. The credit therefore of them weighing more with the writer of this preface than his own, he thought it was better thus to lose his own, by thus shamefully abusing his reader in proving this testimony after the popish manner, than once to hazard the credit of his holy fathers the pope's, by right, faithful, and honest dealing therewith. Howbeit, this kind of dealing of his, may give just occasion to all that are wise ever hereafter, to look better to the fingers of all such fellows, then upon their bare word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers. But lest we should think that this was but a slip of his by chance, & that he was not his craftes-master in this kind of dealing, he hath played us the very like trick again with this same father pa. 18. & where he allegeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third book, to justify their traditions not warranted by the written word. For in the beginning of the said chapter not five lines before the words cited by him, he speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles & evangelists, he saith, that they into that rich treasury most fully have brought all things that belong to truth, so that every one that will, may from thence take the drink of life. And that which he speaketh in the words alleged by him of following of tradition, it is spoken only by way of supposition, to show what course had been best for the Church, when any question should have arisen, if they had not left us scriptures. For his words are these: if the Apostles had not left us scriptures, must we not have followed the order of tradition, which they gave to them to whom they committed churches? In which case (which is not our case now, seeing they have left us scripture) we grant we should have been, in the deciding of all controversies that could have arisen, overruled by that which they delivered by word of mouth to such, and therefore that being the case, no better or readier way for the ending of controversies, should there have been, then to have recourse to the most ancient Churches wherein they were conversant, and so by their tradition, to have learned the certainty therein. But thus, by way of supposition, Irenaeus speaking of their tradition, in the case supposed by him, certain it is, that by their tradition, he understandeth that sound form of doctrine, which they delivered by their preaching, & teaching, which then would & should have been the same (forasmuch as they spoke & wrote by one spirit) that now they have left us in writing. And therefore even then the Romish Church, should have been as far to seek, as she is now, for having any warrant from thence, for those things that she holdeth, either contrary, or besides the word written. And that by tradition, he meaneth here no other thing, it is evident, for in the first chapter of that book he saith plainly: Quod tum praeconiaverunt, postea, per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scriptures, columnam & fundamentum fidei futurum, that is, that which first they preached, after by the will of god, they delivered unto us in the scriptures, to be the pillar and ground of faith. And in the third chapter of that book (having before spoken of the Apostolic tradition) he after showeth what he meant thereby, namely this, that god the maker of heaven and earth etc., as he is described in the old testament, the Apostles have taught to be the father of our Lord jesus Christ, contrary to the fantastical frantic dream of Valentinian, so plainly showing, that they that would, even by the scriptures themselves, might learn what the Apostolic tradition was. Now what is this, for the authorishing, the unwriten traditions of the Romish church, which are not only all beside the scriptures, but whereof the most are contrary thereunto? But this, gentle reader, is the right trick of all the crew of these Romanists, thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers, to seek to colour their absurd opinions, & so ere thou be a ware, to deceive thee, if thou take not heed. As for example, to persuade a man to like of their beggarly unwritten traditions, whatsoever any father speaketh of tradition, though it be never so plain in the author himself, that thereby he meaneth nothing less, than such traditions as theirs, yet that must be confidently brought in, as fit, & most pregnant, for their purpose. Likewise whatsoever any father hath said of any sacramental change of the outward elements, for that therein their name, use, & estimation are changed, though the same father in a thousand other places show, that his judgement is, that there is no change at all there in substance, yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish transubstantiation. And even so, if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist, any mention of a sacrifice, as though there were no kind of sacrifice, but that which they dream to be there, that must be urged as a strong place, to prove their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick & the dead. And this juggling with the fathers, and cozening of their poor simple readers, use they in all their controversies. But at this time, thou must pardon this preface writer this fault, because herein, he doth but study to be like him, before whose book he hath set this his preface. For chapter the fifth, he himself most grossly committeth this same fault, in the detection whereof, I have more at large discovered this lewd dealing of theirs. In the mean time, let us not forget that Irenaeus hath taught us, what that church is, who those pastors be, & what those traditions are, that we must obey & be ruled by, namely, only that Church that hath the scriptures for the pillar & ground of her faith, lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastors that succeed the Apostles in truth of doctrine, li. 4. cap. 43. & those traditions which have good warrant from the scriptures themselves, lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needs follow, that all the places & reasons quoted by him, either out of the scriptures or fathers, to bind us to yield obedience to their church's ordinances, their prelate's commandments, & to the points warranted only by their traditions, their Church having another foundation of her faith then the word written, namely always their pope's will as it hath, & the commandments of their prelate's, & traditions, being not only beside, but also often most grossly contrary to that word of God written (as I shall show in sundry places, oer I have done with Albine) in Irenaeus judgement, are but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy & good meanings. And yet thus, having to no purpose bestowed a great deal of idle pains, as one that had said enough to prove that the authority of all the learned fathers, the common consent of all Christian regions, & prescription of time, were all full & fast of his side, he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any, or all these together, that his side hath the true gospel, & the true sense thereof. That their Religion is the very Christian Religion, their order of ceremonies the right order, and that their fasting and praying, is according to the scriptures, and that therefore their church is the lawful and true spouse of Christ, from which, who so separates himself, is in state of damnation. This thus only said, thereupon by and by, as though there were no remedy, but that we must needs grant all this to be true, he taketh occasion to triumph, and to frame a bitter invective, against our Religion and lives: so concluding his wordy preface, with an exhortation to his Reader to forsake us & our Religion, & to join again with them in theirs. All which because it is nothing, but the vain & malicious words of a foolish adversary, without proof or shadow of proof (which therefore I am sure the wise Reader will make no reckoning of,) I might very well let pass with this only answer, that whatsoever he hath here said braggingly, either in the commendation of his Religion & Church, or to the disgrace of ours, is utterly false, and that I have plentifully proved it so to be, in sundry places of this my answer. Howbeit seeing this is not only his brag, but the brag also a number of times, of john de Albine in the book following, & indeed, is in effect, the only thing, by taking whereof granted, most subtilely they, & all their fellows, seek to beguile their simple readers, it shall not be amiss, because here first we meet with it, lest otherwise the Reader should be too ready, to suffer his hart to be sorestald with this false principle, to the prejudice of the truth, somewhat to say to make both the vanity & falsehood hereof to appear to every one. First therefore it is worthy the marking, that the man, though (as he plainly showeth, he had here a full purpose, at least in words, to give as great countenance as he could to his cause) that yet, he seeks to give it credit, but by the testimony of fathers, consent of Christian regions, and prescription of time, in the mean time, omitting that which is to be preferred before all these, namely the testimony of the undoubted word of God, revealed & set down in the scriptures: wherein he hath dealt but as the nature of his cause requires, which hath no countenance from thence, and as the fashion of other of his companions in this case is. For hereupon it is, that there is nothing more common in their discourses then to labour by all means they can, the disgrace of the written word of god, and to establish the credit of a word unwritten, which they count to be the traditions or ordinary practice of the Church of Rome. To this end they bestow so much pains as they do, at least to make show of proof, that the scriptures are so dark and obscure, so insufficient for the direction of the Church in all matters, and of so weak authority of themselves without the authority and testimony of the Church to countenance them, that without the foresaid unwritten word, no man could either fully or certainly, be settled and established in the truth. So that herein this is their drift, that they indeed being without all sound warrant out of the canonical scriptures, for those things which we count erroneous in them, they yet may make their followers believe, that they have as good ground as need be for them, in that they can prove them, by the tradition of the Church, which they call the word of god unwritten, and which they hold to be not only equal, unto the other that is written, but also far more full and certain for the determining the truth of all controversies. And therefore Soto contra Brentium, Canisius cap. 5. of his Catechism, and Lindan lib. 5. cap. 10. of his panoply are not ashamed to confess, (reckoning almost all the points in controversy betwixt them and us) that they have their ground and warrant from tradition, not written in the scriptures. And hereupon it is, that there is nothing more common with any of them, than when we press them, with this, that the opinions for the which we strive with them have no warrant in the scripture, yea that the scriptures rightly understood are flat against them therein, to fly to tradition, which is the cause that this fellow himself was so busy before to abuse Irenaeus, for the countenance of that only foundation of their Religion. For this cause we may & do say of them, & that justly, by their own confession, as Tertullian said of the heretics in his time, they cannot stand, if they be driven once to determine all their controversies by the scriptures, the Resurrectione Carnis cap. 3. Now as for us (Christian reader) for all this lewd brag of his, we appeal to these scriptures of god, and only we allow of them, as of a most perfect touchstone whereby to try, in all matters of Religion, the pure gold from the counterfeit, craving no further liking nor allowance in any thing, then by them we are able sound to prove, and confirm that which we say and teach. And the ancient holy fathers, and so the Christian regions in all ancient prescription of time, which are the things that he here brags of, as it appears in all sound monuments of antiquity, ever since these scriptures were written, for the determining of controversies in their times, have always taken this course to confute & confound all adversaries to the truth. As for their own authority, or the authority of any other before them, no further credit they crave, then as they are found to agree with these scriptures, otherwise the more that have couseted & the longer they held, the worse. This I have made manifest by plentiful testimony of the ancient fathers themselves cap. 3.5.23. And therefore whiles he sends us thus to the fathers, Christian regions consent, & prescription of time, he sends us but about the bush, for when we come to them, they will send us back again to the scriptures. But whiles they take this course in seeking rather countenance for their cause any where else, then at, or by the canonical scriptures, in the just judgement of god, they plainly bewray themselves to every simple man, to have but a bad cause, that they so shun the light, and refuse the most certain, & most indifferent trial of it, which questionless is by these scriptures, whose neither authority nor indifferecy, without blasphemy, may once be called in question. Indeed I read, that when they were pressed with the authority of these scriptures, the Marcionites pretended for the defence of their heresy, their paraclet or comforters visions, & instructions: & that likewise the Montanists did fly to their prophecy: the Valentinians to their dreams of their Aeons: the Manichees to their fundamental Epistle: the jews to their Talmud: & the Turks to their Koran: & belike lest these should be found unlike these their predecessors, they will thus fly from the undoubted authority of god, speaking in the scriptures, to the uncertain and variable authority of man.  
Yet if this were true that he saith, that they have the ancient holy fathers, the common consent of all Christian regions, & pray scription of time of their side, it were sonewhat, & some likelihood it were, that things were with them, as he saith, I must needs confess, but indeed & truth, they have neither all nor any of these, in that sort to speak for them, as he would make his Reader believe. For first, there is plain contrariety betwixt their doctrine, & the doctrine of the ancient holy fathers, in a number of most weighty points, as I have showed at large ca 17. & 29. likewise in that both ther, & also c. 39 & 40. in that I show, that they hold many things directly contrary to the ancient general counsels, I plentifully prove, that they are destitute, of the common consent of Christian regions. And as for the last, though it were gramnted them, that they may truly pretend long continuance of time, yet seeing it is true, that Tertullian de velandis virginibus hath said, Quodcunque adversus veritatem sapit, heraesis est, etiam vetus consuetudo: that is, whatsoever savoureth against the truth, is heresy, though it be an old custom: & seeing also it is certain, that Cyprian ad Pompeium saith, custom must not let truth to prevail, for custom without truth, is but oldness of error, that could do them little good, we being always able as webe, to prove by the scriptures sound interpreted, & by all sound antiquity, that they are gone long ago from the truth. But in deed though popery be too ancient, & so hath had sun continuance of time, yet it is but a youngling, in respect of that which they pretend. And this I have also proved cap. 17. & in sundry other places of my answer following. Yea that more is, & which will go nearer than I have proved, that indeed we for our Religion & Church, have not only prescription of some longtime, but also of all times & ages even from the beginning. c. 4.9. & 17. And yet this point of antiquity, & prescription of time, is a thing that they so confidently stand upon, that in the offer annexed to john de Albines book, that proud challenger offereth to recant, if we can show where, & when, in what year of the lord, & under what Emperor, & by whom, popery came in, & by whom of our side it was gain said: which though I have, I hope, sufficiently showed in the chapters last before quoted, yet because the answer ringfully to this point, & the removig of this objection, will both blunt the edge of this his brag, & greatly crack the credit of popery, I will vouchsafe sonewhat more here, to set down to the confutation of it.  
Hereunto therefore, whereas the foresaid offerer, and others of that side, so stand upon the antiquity of their Church and Religion, that they would seem we must needs grant, that they are even as ancient, as they pretend, unless we can show when, where, & by whom, a sudden change from our Religion to theirs was made, & that some of our side then presently espied it, & withstood it, unreasonable it is that they demand. For popery being not one, or two particular heresies, nor such a mass or heap of heresies, whose property is to burst in all at once of the sudden, showing itself with open and bare face at the first, but as it is termed, 2. Thess. 2. a mystery of iniquity, and therefore a false Religion, creeping in cunningly by little & little, as it were, by stealing steps, & that hidden as much as might be, under the show & colour of holiness through hypocrisy 1. Tim. 4. & Reu. 13. v. 11. no marvel though it were not only very hard, but even impossible, in every respect to satisfy this demand. And yet for all this, were popery never a whit the more to be liked. For as we see by experience, that ostentimes there is far more danger in those diseases, that steal upon a man by little and little, and therefore are not resisted at the first, then in those that are apparent and violent when they begin, and therefore then are they more carefully withstood and looked unto: even so oftentimes also it falls out in errors and heresies, that they of all other in the end prove the most dangerous, whose beginnings have been most close and secret, and whose growing to their perfection hath not been of the sudden, but in long tract of time. Indeed those diseases that come upon the sudden and are violent, & in their fullness at the first, men at the first may espy and complain of, but so it is not, not cannot be always in the other. We see also, that though it be an easy matter to name the father of a lawfully begotten child, yet no man commonly can tell who is the father of the base son of a common woman. But to make it yet more clear, that popery may be nought (as it is) & yet this his demand be unreasonable, we are to call to mind, that Christ our saviour, who knew best how such most dangerous cankers and diseases, would grow and come up in his church, hath taught us Matth. 13. that it will not always be known & espied, no not of his own household servants, when and by whom first the tars are sown in his field, where he had before only sowed good seed. And there he shows us, that notwithstanding, that it shall be sufficient to prove them tars, in that afterwards when they are come up, they differ as they do from the good seed. Though therefore it were so, that we could not tell when, & by whom, popery was first sown in God's field, yet in that now it being grown up therein, as it is, it being compared with gods good seed taken out of the garner or barn of his holy written word, it differeth from it as it doth, that aught to be sufficient proof unto us, that it is but tars, & of the devils sowing by his devilish seedsimen, whensoever they did it. doubtless the creeping of it in, not all at once, but by little and little, & that with such soft & sly paces, the show of holiness & devotion that it hath stolen in under, the trouble that the holy ancient fathers had in their times otherwise, in confuting gross heresies that showed themselves such at the first, and the small suspicion (if they had marked the beginnings hereof, that were in their times) that they could have had, that ever they would have ●rowen to this that they are now, have been so many great and special causes, why the first beginnings thereof have been no more noted & resisted then they have been. Again this I must ●eeds further say, that it may yet very well be, that the beginning & proceeding also thereof, have been both better observed & withstood by the ancient fathers in the primative church, them appeareth now unto us in their books & monuments: for in these parts of the world in these last 4 or 500 years they so reigning & ●yrannizing as they did, they having their books in their keeping, ●heir care and diligence being as it was, by all means possible to maintain their own credit, very likely is it, that as they met with any thing to that end, they have found the means to suppress & ●ase it out of their writings. Infinite proofs and examples there ●e (they know well enough) to induce any man to think, that love of their own cause, & hatred of the truth, would easily provoke them in this case to be thus bold with their labours. For in all stories since their kingdom grew to the full, not only from time to ●ime, it is noted, that if God raised up any (as he did always some ●s I have showed cap. 4.) to speak & write against their corruptions, they took strait such order, that if not both the men and their books, yet at least their books should be burned and consumed. And they that have had, when the times were far better, three pope's one after an other, so bold & impudent thorough an ambitious desire then of primacy, to forge a false & counterfeit canon of the council of Nice, and to urge it in the open face of an other great & famous council of Carthage, when notori●ously their forgery was espied, & therefore they plainly told of it by epistles written unto them by that council of purpose, no marvel, though when they had attained their full desire of an universal supremacy, they durst do and did whatsoever they thought good, to let as few monuments of antiquity remain any way to their discredit, as might be. Hence I am fully persuaded that in great part it cometh that we find so little as we do, to bewray their beginning & proceeding, and the withstanding thereof in the writings of ancient fathers & Chroniclers. And yet though we found in them far less than we do, I say again, that thence ariseth no reason to justify the popish church or religion: for is there any reason that a ship that is drowned by leaking, a man that is dead by a consumption, & a common weal that is grown from a moderate and well ordered government, to an absolute tyranny, should be said to be safe, in health, alive, & in good state, because we cannot tell when, & where, the ship began first to leak, the man began first to fall into his consumption, and when the common weal began first to grow out of order? Likely enough also is it, that the great credit that the ancient bishops of Rome were in, for their piety and godliness, and the lofty estate of their successors afterward, so dazzled on the one side, the eyes of the godly in ancient time, that they were not curious, in resisting the doings of their successors: and so bridled on the other side, the tongues of the worldly minded of these latter days, that they durst not write that which they saw: all which reasons laid together make it evident, that it ought to be no wonder, nor yet any argument, any whit at all to credit popery, though this offerers demand could not be satisfied. Howbeit, this only I have written, to show the unreasonableness of this demand, for indeed, God's name be praised for it, how unreasonable soever it be otherwise, we are able sufficiently to answer it. For Paul hath told us, that this mystery of iniquity was working in his days 2. Thes. 2. vers. 7. And so indeed it was, in that even then, first their were false Apostles, that laboured to corrupt the article of free and full salvation, through the only means and merits of Christ jesus, teaching that it was necessary to salvation, for them that believed in Christ also to be circumcised, as it appears, Acts 15. and Gal. 5. and after that there were such, as hereupon grew a step further, namely, to urge the necessity of the observing of human traditions, as, Touch not, taste not, handle not, so making a show of humbleness of mind, in worshipping of Angels, and of voluntary religion, in not sparing their bodies, in observing hereof: against all which, Saint Paul stands forth in the places before quoted, & also in the second of the Colossians. This damnable error also was considered of, and confuted in that famous apostolic council, Acts. 15. And amongst others, Saint john also sharply rebuketh and condemneth the teachers, of this Antichristian doctrine, calling them very Antichrists, and such as were gone out from them, that so it might appear, that they were never of them, Epist. 1. Cap. 2. ●ers. 18.19. And therefore as I show Cap. 17. the church of Christ and the teachers therein universally, for six hundred years after Christ and more, taught directly against joining any person or thing with Christ in the office of justifying and sa●ing: though now there is nothing more usual in the Ro●ish church that now is, then to teach other merits and ●atisfactions in these respects to be trusted unto besides Christ's. The next Capital point of Antichristianity is the now challenged supremacy of the Roman prelate, and as for that, we can ●hew, both the beginning and proceeding thereof from time to ●ime, and who always set themselves against it. The first ambitious climbing that way, we may note in the mother of Ze●edeus children, and her two sons, who coming unto Christ, ●equire this of him, that the one may sit at his right hand, & the o●her at his left in his kingdom, and that was spied to be a ●owle fault in them by Christ, and therefore by him they are checked and withstood Matth. 20. After we read of one Diotrephes, that so loved the pre-eminence that he would not receive john, and such as he was, but in his third epistle vers. 9 he shows he spied him, and that he did utterly dislike that arrogant & ambitious humour of his, yet by these warnings your bishops of Rome, would not take heed, but for all this, would take to much upon them over their brethren, but when either they, or others have done so, it appears in ancient Chronicles, and in the writings of the ancient fathers, that they had always some that did spy it, and set themselves against it. For when Victor bishop of Rome, about the year of Christ, two hundred, somewhat popelike, so far exceeded his bounds, that he took upon him to excommunicate the bishops of the East, for that they would not conform themselves to the fashion of the church of Rome, in the keeping of Easter, not only Polycrates, and sundry other bishops there withstood him therein, out here in the west, Irenaeus bishop then of Lions (though he were of Victor's mind for the observing of Easter) yet in his own name, and in the name of his brethren, wrote to Victor, & in that his letter rebukes him, for his so far proceeding, as you may read in Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 22. and 23. And after this in Cyprians time about the year 255. when Cornelius Bishop of Rome unadvisedly, & contrary to the good policy of the church, and after him Stephanus, took upon them so to admit of fugitives out of Africa at Rome, that not only they received them into their communion, but took upon them to labour their restitution, they being before for their just demerits excommunicated, and deposed in Africa: Cyprian wrote unto them both to Cornelius in his first book of Epistles, Epistle 3. and to Stephanus in his second book, and first Epistle, wherein earnestly he reproveth them for so intermeddling in his jurisdiction, & the jurisdiction of other his colleagues in Africa, showing than that they ought not so to do, for they in afric had as full Pishoply authority as they at Rome, and therefore were both able and the fittest, to hear and determine such cases as fallen out amongst themselves. But seeing for all this the Bishops of Rome still were too busy, in meddling further than they should, after this in the counsel of Nice cannon 6. their authority and the patriarchs of Alexandria are made equal about the year 320. And yet the better to stay and keep the Bishops of Rome within their due limits after this, in most counsels for 300. years after something still was done to bridle them. For certain it is that as it appears dist. 99 the third counsel of Carthage held about the year 435. cap. 26. forbade the ambitious and proud titles of Prince, of Priests, High-priests & such like, even to the Bishops of the first see. And Concilio Milevitano, about the year 420. & in another of Africa held betwixt these two, as some writ, about the year 428. cap. 92. appeals unto them from the Bishops & counsels of Africa were forbidden. And the great general council of Chalcedon held about the year 453. when the Bishop of Rome's legates had done what they could to the contrary Act. 15.16. & canon 28. gave the Patriarch of Constantinople equal privileges with the Bishop of Rome. And long after this, the first general counsel, being the third (as it is noted in the second tome of the councils) held at Constantinople in the time of Pope Agatho, about the year of the Lord 681. renewing a decree before there consented unto, in a council consisting of 150. Bishop's cap. 5. and remembering likewise the foresaid 28. cannon of the council of Chalcedon, whereas some writ there were 630. Bishops, cap. 36. ratifieth and enacteth the same. And if we go no further then to the former five general counsels, we shall find them all to have had a care by their decrees, to keep the bishops of Rome within their due bounds of their own patriarchal see. For proof whereof, let any man but read the sixth canon of the Nicene, the second & third of the first of Constantinople, the eight of the Ephesme, remembering withal the twenty eight of the Chalcedon, twice now immediately before mentioned, & understand that the fift general council solemnly confirmed those four former, and their canons & decrees, and he cannot choose but see this to be most manifest. But amongst all the rest, notable is that that appears to this end in that great solemn African council, where Zozimus, Boniface, & Celestine, three pope's on a rew, by their Legates under one of their hands alleging a false canon of the council of Nice, all that was determined in former counsels to the contrary notwithstanding, showed themselves intolerably ambitious of supremacy, thereby most eagerly claiming such a pre-eminence to be given to their see, that if any bishop or minister, were deposed in any other province, or Patriarchal see, that upon his appeal to Rome, the Bishop of Rome might accept thereof, & thereupon either write his letters to the next province to determine the matter, or else to send his Legate from his side to represent his own person, to sit in judgement with the bishops there to determine the matter. For there, as it appears, in the 101 102 103 & 105 chap. of that council, in the first tome of the counsels, this their allegation was not only examined, by all the copies of the Nicene council that they had there, but also by ancient copies thereof, which they sent for thither of purpose to Alexandria, Antioch, & Constantinople, & thereby in the open face of that council, where 217 Bishops were assembled, their forgery was espied, & therefore that allegation notwithstanding, the bishop of Rome's dealing concerning Apiarius (who then gave the occasion of that stur) was there openly disliked & condemned, & therefore to prevent the like thereafter, they in their 92 chapter there determine, that whosoever should so appeal any more from the bishops, & counsels of Africa beyond the seas, should thenceforth never after of any in Africa be received into communion. Besides, as it appears there in the 105. cap. by the common consent of that council, a letter was framed and sent to Celestine, about the latter end thereof (as it should seem by the stories about the year four hundred and thirty) wherein first they admonish him to admit no more such appeals, or fugitives, but to send them back again always to their own provinces and Metropolitans, and the rather, say they, because such order was taken by the Nicene council. And after therein they plead the equity of that ordinance, because the holy ghost is aswell in one province, as in an other, and there the cause is always like best to be handled, where it doth arise, because of the neighnesse of the witnesses. Wherefore having told him, that they find no such thing in the truer copies of the Nicene council, as Faustinus sent by him alleged, they flatly forbidden him the sending of his agents or legates any more, upon any such occasion amongst them. It should seem for all this, that so incident to that see, was this ambitious humour, that in pope Symachus time, about the year five hundred, many bishops even in these parts, did accuse him to Theodoricus, king of the Goths, because he took upon him to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, one who would have his will to be a law, which is now professed, to be the pope's prerogative and not to be controlled. Dist. 40. Si papa. In Gregory his time, in the reign of Mauritius the Emperor, the bishop of Constantinople lustily challenged the title of universal bishop, but then Pelagius bishop of Rome in the year five hundred eighty three (as it appears in the ninety nine distinction of your law in Gratian) and Gregory also his successor condemned that, for an unlawful and Antichristian name in him, or in any other bishop, the bishops of Rome themselves not excepted, lib. 4. epist. 32.38.39. And whereas (this notwithstanding) Boniface the next but one to Gregory (though with somewhat a do) obtained of that murderer and traitor Phocas, (who having cruelly slain Mauritius, succeeded him in the Empire) this Antichristian title, first to be called universal bishop, or head of the church, witness Sabellicus, Marianus Scotus, Martinus Polonus, and others, yet as Platina witnesseth in vita Dom, the church of Ravenna in Italy complained thereof, and until pope Donus time (which was seventy years after) it could not be brought to tolerate and like of it. Otho Frisingensis lib. 6. Cap. 35. an ancient historiographer, speaking of Gregory the seventh commonly called Hildebrand, and his proceed against the Emperor Henry, not only to excommunicate him, but also to depose him, ●ith, Lego & relego Romanorum regum & Imperatorum gesta & c. ●read and read again the acts of the Roman kings and Emperors, and yet before this, I find none of them of the Roman bishop excommunicated, or deprived of his kingdom. But 〈◊〉 we read Sigebert, Abbas Vrspergensis, H. Mutius, and others, we shall find, that the same Bishop, for this his Antichristian pride, and other faults that he had, was not only wonderfully withstood and oppugned by that Emperor, but ●y counsels also then held at Brixia, Mentz, and Worms, sharply rebuked, condemned, and disposed. And though he having thus begun to encroach upon the Emperor, many of his successors followed him in his very steps, yet we read also in Chronicles that Henry the fift, Frederick the first, and Frederick the second Emperors, Philip the fair, and Carolus calvus of France, Henry the first and second, Richard the second, and king john of England, with sundry other Emperors and kings, did notably and openly resist them therein, and that they had always many learned fathers and Bishops to take their parts. But to leave this matter, and to go on to others: because the author of this preface, and brag that I now am in answering, in his brag maketh special mention, as you have heard of their order of ceremonies, and manner of praying, and fasting, boasting that for these, they have the holy fathers, the consent of all christian nations, and prescription of long continuance, yea for the two last the very scriptures: let us first see if we can find out the original, and withal the just reproof and condemnation of these. First for their ceremonies, none that hath but red Platina, or any other story of the lives of their pope's, but he hath red when, how, and by whom they were devised, for there is few of them, for many hundred years together, that thought, as it should seem by the writers of their lives, that they had worthily sat in that place, unless they had devised some new rite and ceremony more than was before. But if one go no further then to Polidor de inventoribus rerum, there shall he find when, and by whom they had their original, whereby also it shall appear, that for many of them they are of so late devising, they cannot pretend either the testimony of ancient fathers, or prescription of any long time, & for very few of them, whatsoever he brags, can they truly allege consent of all Christian regions, for as they have most of them been devised here in these parts of the world by bishops of Rome, so few of them in comparison have been, 〈◊〉 yet be received in the other parts of Christianity, that were under the other patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, & Antioch: yea even here in these parts, all their rites & ceremonies were never yet universally received of every country alike, no nor yet of every part of any one country. But they being in number so many, in nature a number of them so childish and foolish, & yet having been urged as they have, to be used with such opinion and holiness, S. Paul's reprehension of those that were in his time so busy with the Colossians, in urging them to keep their ordinances, the keeping whereof lay in, touch not, taste not, handle not, Coloss. 2. is both a bewraying, when such like ceremonies as these that he brags of first began, and also a just and a full condemnation of them. Read also S. Augustine's 119 epistle ad januarium, and you shall find there, how earnestly he hath envied against the multiplying, and bringing in, & so urging of such unnecessary rites and ceremonies: showing how few the simplicity of the gospel is contented withal. And yet as it is well known, he lived 1000 years ago, and that since his time there are 1000 newrites & ceremonies devised in the Romish church, that he never had heard of, & yet then he complained that there were so many, and they so servilely were urged, that the jews state was in that respect far more tolerable, what would he have said then, if he had lived in these days, and had seen the curious, infinite, and foolish rites and ceremonies, but of one popish priest formally doing his mass?  
Indeed fasting is a thing, and so is prayer, that hath countenance of scriptures, fathers, Christian regions, and of all ages and times, but so hath not either the popish fasting or praying. For their fasting is tied superstitiously to set days, and also lieth especially in abstinence from one meat, rather than from an other, their end therein being not only to chastise the body, that it may be brought the more readily & fervently to obey the holy direction of the spirit, as the word of God teacheth only it should, but even thereby to satisfy, either for some sin past, or to earn or deserve somewhat at the hands of God. Such fasting as this was that of the hypocritical pharisees, whereof Christ warm ●s disciples, Mat. 6.16. & the first fathers, & teachers hereof, are ●hose spirits of error, that S. Paul speaks of 1. Tim. 4. and so you ●ay there see both, who first in the church of Christ, found out & practised your kind of fasting, & who by & by spied it, & condemned it for hypocritical, & the doctrine of devils. But if you would ●aue us to search further, we tell you, that after Christ & his Apostles times, Eusebius reports in his 5 book & 16 chapter out of A●olonius, that Montanus the heretic, prescribed laws of fasting, & he is the first that we read of, that tied fasting by law, to prescript days & times, which is there reckoned up by that Apolonius, ●s one of his heretical devices. This Montanus was about they ear of the Lord 145. And it appears in Augustine's 2. book & 13. cha. of the manners of the church, & of the Manichees, that it was the fashion them of those heretics, to think upon their fasting days, that they fasted excellently, though otherwise they had never so dainty●e so they abstained from flesh & wine, for the which Augustine doth deride them. And consequently herein Apolonius & Augustine, have showed their dislike of that popish fasting. If yet ●t should be replied, as it is, by some of their side, that their fasting is not altogether like the condemned abstinence of these ancient heretics, & others, for that they abstained from flesh upon an opinion, that flesh was an impurer creature than fish; how will they then excuse Durand. li. 6. ca de ieiunijs, who giveth this as a reason of their abstinence upon fasting days, rather from flesh, then from fish, because all flesh was accursed in the days of Noah & not all fish?  
Now touching their manner of praying, for all his brag, neither fathers, consent of all Christian regions, prescription of any long continuance of time, nor scriptures give it any credit or countenance at al. For first, whereas now they pray all in Latin, a tongue not understood of most that hear, & use their prayers, it is a kind of praying flatly condemned, because it is without edification to such, by Chrysostome & Ambrose, upon the 14. of the first to the Corinthians. Augustine also de Genesi ad literam, li. 12. Cap. 8. joins with them herein, avouching that no man is edified by hearing that, which he understands not. And the descriptions of all the ancient liturgies in the Church show, that always they were used in such a tongue, as the people understood aswell as the minister, there is such mention of intercourse of speech one to the other, as any man may see, that perused the descriptions thereof: yea writers, both old & new do plainly testify, that the ancient & long continued use of the church hath been, to have her public liturgy in the known & vulgar tongue of the people. For Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. writeth, that the Grecians name God in greek, & the Romans in the latin tongue, and every one in their native and mother tongue, pray & sing Psalms unto God. And Hierom to Eustochuim describing the solemn funeral of Pacta, & elsewhere to Marcelia, testifieth, that though to Bethleem there was concourse of very many several nations, yet every one there praised god & prayed unto him in their own language. Insomuch that even Lyra upon the 14 of the first to the Corinthians confesses, that in the primitive church, all was done in the vulgar tongue. And no longer ago then Innocent the thirds time, in the Lateran council held in his time 1215. c. 9 order is taken, that where in one country there be people of divers languages, there the Bishops should provide them ministers, to celebrate them divine service, & to minister them the sacraments, according to the diversities of their rites & languages. Yet further that thou mayst see, Christian reader, in this point, that the man blusheth at nothing, understand, that by the confession of their own friend Eckius in his common places, the South Indians have their liturgy in their mother tongue: & by the confession of another, one Sigismond writing of the Moscovites, that they likewise have theirs. And Petrus Bellonius, writing of the Armonians, testifies the like of them: yea Aeneas silvius who after was a Pope, in his history of the Bohemians c. 13. plainly shows, that a Pope was admonished by a voice from heaven, to grant Cyril, that converted Russia & Moralia, to say divine service amongst them in the Shlavon tongue which was their vulgar tongue. How have they then, as he brags, these things considered, either the ancient holy fathers, consent of all regions, or such prescription of time, as he pretends, for this manner of praying of theirs, in a tongue not understood of most? And who can read the 14 of the first to the Corinthians, unless he be disposed wilfully to be blind, but he must needs there see, that this manner of praying is directly there condemned? Chrysostome, Ambrose, Haymo, Lyra, and so expositors, both ancient and new, take it, howsoever our late Rhemists, in their notes, would feign wrist the place from any such meaning. And in this respect, suppose otherwise their prayers were faultless, who seethe not, that they give God occasion again to renew his old complaint Esay. 29. This people draw near unto me with their lips, but their hart is far from me: of most people, which through their tyranny only pray thus. But in this point only there is not vanity and falsehood in his brag; for otherwise if we consider well their manner of praying, we shall find both gross untruth in his speech, and horrible faults in their prayers. For how can it be true, that consent of fathers, and the rest that he brags of, do countenance that set form of church-service, that now they are in possession of? seeing neither the ancient fathers, nor yet one quarter of Christendom, was ever acquainted with it? There own authors, and namely Polydore de inventoribus rerum lib. 5. cap. 10, do show how it came in, and was devised piece after piece. In the one thousand two hundred years after Christ, it was not grown either to that full form or credit that it is at now. For the form of mass now used, commonly called Saint Gregory's mass, with much ado got to be first in these western parts received in Pope Adrians' time, 790 years after Christ, witness Durand Nauclere, and jacobus de voragine: and yet even then, and long after, Millayn continued the use of a form of liturgy received from Ambrose. Benedict the 3, that succeeded next joan the harlot, about the year 857 first invented & brought in the dirge, as most authors write, though Gregory the 3 had done somewhat about it before. The first allowance of the sequences in the mass is attributed to Nicolas the first, that succeeded this Benedict, In Alexander the 2 time, Alliluiah was first suspended out of the church in ●ent time, which was above 1000 year after Christ. Our ordinary here in England, secundum usum Sarum, began 1076 years after Christ, and that, as our stories show, by occasion of a bloody quarrel betwixt the Abbot of Glassenbury & his monks. The 7 canonical hours came in first by Vrban the second, in the year one thousand & ninety. But Gregory the ninth, that monstrous enemy of Frederick the second, first brought in that blasphemous canticle Salue regina, one thousand two hundred year & more after Christ. And howsoever these patches, in the end grew in these parts to b●● sowed together, yet the other parts of the world under the Cyprians time about the year 255. when Corneliu. Bishop of Rome unadvisedly, & contrary to the good policy of the church, and after him Stephanus, took upon them so to admit of fugitives out of Africa at Rome, that not only they received them into their communion, but took upon them to labour their restitution, they being before for their just demerits excommunicated, and deposed in Africa: Cyprian wrote unto them both: to Cornelius in his first book of Epistles, Epistle 3. and to Stephanus in his second book, and first Epistle, wherein earnestly he reproveth them for so intermeddling in his jurisdiction, & the jurisdiction of other his colleagues in Africa, showing than that they ought not so to do, for they in afric had as full Bishoply authority as they at Rome, and therefore were both able and the fittest, to hear and determine such cases as fallen out amongst themselves. But seeing for all this the Bishops of Rome still were too busy, in meddling further than they should, after this in the counsel of Nice cannon 6. their authority and the patriarchs of Alexandria are made equal about the year 320. And yet the better to stay and keep the Bishops of Rome within their due limits after this, in most counsels for 300. years after something still was done to bridle them. For certain it is that as it appears dist. 99 the third counsel of Carthage held about the year 435. cap. 26. forbade the ambitious and proud titles of Prince, of Priests, High-priests & such like, even to the Bishops of the first see. And Concilio Milevitano, about the year 420. & in another of Africa held betwixt these two, as some writ, about the year 428. cap. 92. appeals unto them from the Bishops & counsels of Africa were forbidden. And the great general council of Chalcedon held about the year 453. when the Bishop of Rome's legates had done what they could to the contrary Act. 15.16. & canon 28. gave the Patriarch of Constantinople equal privileges with the Bishop of Rome. And long after this, the first general counsel, being the third (as it is noted in the second tome of the councils) held at Constantinople in the time of Pope Agatho, about the year of the Lord 681. renewing a decree before there consented unto, in a council consisting of 150. Bishop's cap. 5. and remembering likewise the foresaid 28. cannon of the council of Chalcedon, whereas some writ there were 630. Bishops, cap. 36. ratifieth and enacteth the same. And if we go no further then to the former five general counsels, we shall find them all to have had a care by their decrees, to keep the bishops of Rome within their due bounds of their own patriarchal see. For proof whereof, let any man but read the sixth canon of the Nicene, the second & third of the first of Constantinople, the eight of the Ephesine, remembering withal the twenty eight of the Chalcedon, twice now immediately before mentioned, & understand that the fift general council solemnly confirmed those four former, and their canons & decrees, and he cannot choose but see this to be most manifest. But amongst all the rest, notable is that that appears to this end in that great solemn African council, where Zozimus, Boniface, & Celestine, three pope's on a rew, by their Legates under one of their hands alleging a false canon of the council of Nice, all that was determined in former counsels to the contrary notwithstanding, showed themselves intolerably ambitious of supremacy, thereby most eagerly claiming such a pre-eminence to be given to their see, that if any bishop or minister, were deposed in any other province, or Patriarchal see, that upon his appeal to Rome, the Bishop of Rome might accept thereof, & thereupon either write his letters to the next province to determine the matter, or else to send his Legate from his side to represent his own person, to sit in judgement with the bishops there to determine the matter. For there, as it appears, in the 101 102 103 & 105 chap. of that council, in the first tome of the counsels, this their allegation was not only examined, by all the copies of the Nicene council that they had there, but also by ancient copies thereof, which they sent for thither of purpose to Alexandria, Antioch, & Constantinople, & thereby in the open face of that council, where 217 Bishops were assembled, their forgery was espied, & therefore that allegation notwithstanding, the bishop of Rome's dealing concerning Apiarius (who then gave the occasion of that stur) was there openly disliked & condemned, & therefore to prevent the like thereafter, they in their 92 chapter there determine, that whosoever should so appeal any more from the bishops, & counsels of Africa beyond the seas, should thenceforth never after of any in Africa be received into communion. Besides, as it appears there in the 105. cap. by the common consent of that council, a letter was framed and sent to Celestine, about the latter end thereof (as it should seem by the stories about the year four hundred and thirty) wherein first they admonish him to admit no more such appeals, or fugitives, but to send them back again always to their own provinces and Metropolitans, and the rather, say they, because such order was taken by the Nicene council. And after therein they plead the equity of that ordinance, because the holy ghost is aswell in one province, as in an other, and there the cause is always like best to be handled, where it doth arise, because of the neighnesse of the witnesses. Wherefore having told him, that they find no such thing in the truer copies of the Nicene council, as Faustinus sent by him alleged, they flatly forbidden him the sending of his agents or legates any more, upon any such occasion amongst them. It should seem for all this, that so incident to that see, was this ambitious humour, that in pope Symachus time, about the year five hundred, many bishops even in these parts, did accuse him to Theodoricus, king of the Goths, because he took upon him to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, one who would have his will to be a law, which is now professed, to be the pope's prerogative and not to be controlled. Dist. 40. Si papa. In Gregory his time, in the reign of Mauritius the Emperor, the bishop of Constantinople lustily challenged the title of universal bishop, but then Pelagius bishop of Rome in the year five hundred eighty three (as it appears in the ninety nine distinction of your law in Gratian) and Gregory also his successor condemned that, for an unlawful and Antichristian name in him, or in any other bishop, the bishops of Rome themselves not excepted, lib. 4. epist. 32.38.39. And whereas (this notwithstanding) Boniface the next but one to Gregory (though with somewhat a do) obtained of that murderer and traitor Phocas, (who having cruelly slain Mauritius, succeeded him in the Empire) this Antichristian title first to be called universal bishop, or head of the church, witness Sabellicus, Marianus Scotus, Martinus Polonus, and others, yet as Platina witnesseth in vita Doni, the church of Ravenna in Italy complained thereof, and until pope Donus time (which was seventy years after) it could not be brought to tolerate and like of it. Otho Frisingensis lib. 6. Cap. 35. an ancient historiographer, speaking of Gregory the seventh commonly called Held ebrand, and his proceed against the Emperor Henry, not only to excommunicate him, but also to depose him, saith, Lego & relego Romanorum regum & Imperatorum gesta etc. 〈◊〉 read and read again the acts of the Roman kings and Emperors, and yet before this, I find none of them of the Roman Bishop excommunicated, or deprived of his kingdom. But ●f we read Sigebert, Abbas Vrspergensis, H. Mutius, and others, we shall find, that the same Bishop, for this his Antichristian pride, and other faults that he had, was not only wonderfully withstood and oppugned by that Emperor, but by counsels also then held at Brixia, Mentz, and Worms, sharply rebuked, condemned, and disposed. And though he having thus begun to encroach upon the Emperor, many of his successors followed him in his very steps, yet we read also in Chronicles that Henry the fift, Frederick the first, and Frederick the second Emperors, Philip the fair, and Carolus calvus of France, Henry the first and second, Richard the second, and king john of England, with sundry other Emperors and kings, did notably and openly resist them therein, and that they had always many learned fathers and Bishops to take their parts. But to leave this matter, and to go on to others: because the author of this preface, and brag that I now am in answering, in his brag maketh special mention, as you have heard of their order of ceremonies, and manner of praying, and fasting, boasting that for these, they have the holy fathers, the consent of all christian nations, and prescription of long continuance, yea for the two last the very scriptures: let us first see if we can find out the original, and withal the just reproof and condemnation of these. First for their ceremonies, none that hath but red Platina, or any other story of the lives of their pope's, but he hath red when, how, and by whom they were devised, for there is few of them, for many hundred years together, that thought, as it should seem by the writers of their lives, that they had worthily sat in that place, unless they had devised some new rite and ceremony more than was before. But if one go no further then to Polidor de inventoribus rerum, there shall he find when, and by whom they had their original, whereby also it shall appear, that for many of them they are of so late devising, they cannot pretend either the testimony of ancient fathers, or prescription of any long time, & for very few of them, whatsoever he brags, can they truly allege consent of all Christian regions, for as they have most of them been devised here in these parts of the world by bishops of Rome, so few of them in comparison have been, or yet be received in the other parts of Christianity, that were under the other patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, & Antioch: yea even here in these parts, all their rites & ceremonies were never yet universally received of every country alike, no nor yet of every part of any one country. But they being in number so many, in nature a number of them so childish and foolish, & yet having been urged as they have, to be used with such opinion and holiness, S. Paul's reprehension of those that were in his time so busy with the Colossians, in urging them to keep their ordinances, the keeping whereof lay in, touch not, taste not, handle not, Coloss. 2. is both a bewraying, when such like ceremonies as these that he brags of first began, and also a just and a full condemnation of them. Read also S. Augustine's 119 epistle ad januarium, and you shall find there, how earnestly he hath envied against the multiplying, and bringing in, & so urging of such unnecessary rites and ceremonies: showing how few the simplicity of the gospel is contented withal. And yet as it is well known, he lived 1000 years ago, and that since his time there are 1000 new rites & ceremonies devised in the Romish church, that he never had heard of, & yet then he complained that there were so many, and they so servilely were urged, that the jews state was in that respect far more tolerable, what would he have said then, if he had lived in these days, and had seen the curious, infinite, and foolish rites and ceremonies, but of one popish priest formally doing his mass?  
Indeed fasting is a thing, and so is prayer, that hath countenance of scriptures, fathers, Christian regions, and of all ages and times, but so hath not either the popish fasting or praying. For their fasting is tied superstitiously to set days, and also lieth especially in abstinence from one meat, rather than from an other, their end therein being not only to chastise the body, that it may be brought the more readily & fervently to obey the holy direction of the spirit, as the word of God teacheth only it should, but even thereby to satisfy, either for some sin past, or to earn or deserve somewhat at the hands of God. Such fasting as this was that of the hypocritical pharisees, whereof Christ warn● his disciples, Mat. 6.16. & the first fathers, & teachers hereof, are those spirits of error, that S. Paul speaks of 1. Tim. 4. and so you may there see both, who first in the church of Christ, found out & practised your kind of fasting, & who by & by spied it, & condemned it for hypocritical, & the doctrine of devils. But if you would have us to search further, we tell you, that after Christ & his Apostles times, Eusebius reports in his 5 book & 16 chapter out of Apolonius, that Montanus the heretic, prescribed laws of fasting, & he is the first that we read of, that tied fasting by law, to prescript days & times, which is there reckoned up by that Apolonius, as one of his heretical devices. This Montanus was about the year of the Lord 145. And it appears in Augustine's 2. book & 13. cha. of the manners of the church, & of the Manichees, that it was the fashion them of those heretics, to think upon their fasting days, that they fasted excellently, though otherwise they had never so daintyre so they abstained from flesh & wine, for the which Augustine doth deride them. And consequently herein Apolonius & Augustine, have showed their dislike of that popish fasting. If yet it should be replied, as it is, by some of their side, that their fasting is not altogether like the condemned abstinence of these ancient heretics, & others, for that they abstained from flesh upon an opinion, that flesh was an impurer creature than fish; how will they then excuse Durand. li. 6. ca de ieiunijs, who giveth this as a reason of their abstinence upon fasting days, rather from flesh, then from fish, because all flesh was accursed in the days of Noah & not all fish?  
Now touching their manner of praying, for all his brag, neither fathers, consent of all Christian regions, prescription of any long continuance of time, nor scriptures give it any credit or countenance at al. For first, whereas now they pray all in Latin, a tongue not understood of most that hear, & use their prayers, it is a kind of praying flatly condemned, because it is without edification to such, by Chrysostome & Ambrose, upon the 14. of the first to the Corinthians. Augustine also de Genesi ad literam, li. 12. Cap. 8. joins with them herein, avouching that no man is edified by hearing that, which he understands not. And the descriptions of all the ancient liturgies in the Church show, that always they were used in such a tongue, as the people understood aswell as the minister, there is such mention of intercourse of speech one to the other, as any man may see, that perused the descriptions thereof: yea writers, both old & new do plainly testify, that the ancient & long continued use of the church hath been, to have her public liturgy in the known & vulgar tongue of the people. For Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. writeth, that the Grecians name God in greek, & the Romans in the latin tongue, and every one in their native and mother tongue, pray & sing Psalms unto God. And Hierom to Eustochium describing the solemn funeral of Pacta, & elsewhere to Marcelia, testifieth, that though to Bethleem there was concourse of very many several nations, yet every one there praised god & prayed unto him in their own language. Insomuch that even Lyra upon the 14 of the first to the Corinthians confesses, that in the primitive church, all was done in the vulgar tongue. And no longer ago then Innocent the thirds time, in the Lateran council held in his time 1215. c. 9 order is taken, that where in one country there be people of divers languages, there the Bishops should provide them ministers, to celebrate them divine service, & to minister them the sacraments, according to the diversities of their rites & languages. Yet further that thou mayst see, Christian reader, in this point, that the man blusheth at nothing, understand, that by the confession of their own friend Eckius in his common places, the South Indians have their liturgy in their mother tongue: & by the confession of another, one Sigismond writing of the Moscovites, that they likewise have theirs. And Petrus Bellonius, writing of the Armonians, testifies the like of them: yea Aeneas silvius who after was a Pope, in his history of the Bohemians c. 13. plainly shows, that a Pope was admonished by a voice from heaven, to grant Cyril, that converted Russia & Moralia, to say divine service amongst them in the Shlavon tongue which was their vulgar tongue. How have they then, as he brags, these things considered, either the ancient holy fathers, consent of all regions, or such prescription of time, as he pretends, for this manner of praying of theirs, in a tongue not understood of most? And who can read the 14 of the first to the Corinthians, unless he be disposed wilfully to be blind, but he must needs there see, that this manner of praying is directly there condemned? Chrysostome, Ambrose, Haymo, Lyra, and so expositors, both ancient and new, take it, howsoever our late Rhemists, in their notes, would feign wrist the place from any such meaning. And in this respect, suppose otherwise their prayers were faultless, who seethe not, that they give God occasion again to renew his ●olde complaint Esay. 29. This people draw near unto me with their lips, but their hart is far from me: of most people, which through their tyranny only pray thus. But in this point only there is not vanity and falsehood in his brag; for otherwise if we consider well their manner of praying, we shall find both gross untruth in his speech, and horrible faults in their prayers. For how can it be true, that consent of fathers, and the rest that he brags of, do countenance that set form of church-service, that now they are in possession of? seeing neither the ancient fathers, nor yet one quarter of Christendom, was ever acquainted with it? There own authors, and namely Polydore de inventoribus rerum lib. 5. cap. 10, do show how it came in, and was devised piece after piece. In the one thousand two hundred years after Christ, it was not grown either to that full form or credit that it is at now. For the form of mass now used, commonly called Saint Gregory's mass, with much ado got to be first in these western parts received in Pope Adrians' time, 790 years after Christ, witness Durand Nauclere, and jacobus de voragine: and yet even then, and long after, Millayn continued the use of a form of liturgy received from Ambrose. Benedict the 3, that succeeded next joan the harlot, about the year 857 first invented & brought in the dirge, as most authors write, though Gregory the 3 had done somewhat about it before. The first allowance of the sequences in the mass is attributed to Nicolas the first, that succeeded this Benedict. In Alexander the 2 time, Alliluiah was first suspended out of the church in ●ent time, which was above 1000 year after Christ. Our ordinary here in England, secundum usum Sarum, began 1076 years after Christ, and that, as our stories show, by occasion of a bloody quarrel betwixt the Abbot of Glassenbury & his monks. The 7 canonical hours came in first by Vrban the second, in the year one thousand & ninety. But Gregory the ninth, that monstrous enemy of Frederick the second, first brought in that blasphemous canticle Salue regina, one thousand two hundred year & more after Christ. And howsoever these patches, in the end grew in these parts to be sowed together, yet the other parts of the world under the other patriarchs, were little or not at all troubled with them. And howsoever he shame not to avouch, that now their manner of praying is according to the scriptures, Gregory. l. 7. Epist. 63. writes, that, Mos Apostolorum fuit, it was the manner of the Apostles, to consecrate only with the Lords prayer, which simplicity, who so compares, with their stagelike dealing thereabout now, he can never be persuaded, that two fashions so differing, should both have countenance of scriptures. But to make it yet more evident, that of all other things he might worst have made this brag, of their manner of praying, there are two great & notorious faults more therein: their praying for the dead to help them out, or to ease them in the pains of purgatory, & their praying, as they do, to Saints & Angels. For in these two points, they are not only destitute of the testimony of the holy ancient fathers, consent of all Christian regions, prescription of so long time as he makes show of, and the scriptures, but rather all these are indeed herein against them. For purgatory itself, & consequently prayers made to relieve souls there, is but a very late devise, & never yet received of half of Christendom. For in William Rufus time, king here of England, there being a council held at Baron, there the Greek church, in this point plainly discented from the Latin, and never from that day to this, could be brought herein, to be of their mind, whereby any man may gather, that it is a point, which the Latin church hath devised, since the greek church broke of communion from her, & that never yet, had either consent of all christian nations, or such prescription of time, to countenance it, as he talks of. And as for the scriptures, let them be perused thorough, & there shall not be found in them that be of the canon, either example of prayer, or sacrifice for the dead, yea rather plainly he shall find them, always urging the time of this present life, to be the only time, to do good in, and to seek the Lord for our comfort ever after. And as for the other point, concerning their prayers to Saints departed and Angels, it is such a thing, for the which, in all the scripture they can find neither precept, promiss, nor example, to lead them to use it, but to teach them to abhor it, there they shall, or at least may learn, that invocation, is a special divine point of service, of such spiritual and high nature, as that God challengeth it only to himself, & that therefore never any holy man, mentioned in the scriptures durst ever use it to any other. Indeed a man shall easily find that ere Epiphanius time, Satan had taught the heretics called Caians', to worship Angels with invocation of them, and that likewise ere his time in Africa there were, that offered to Mary the virgin, and that in invocating her, and other saints were very busy, & pretended great piety & devotion; but withal he shall find, that he bitterly condemns all that did so for heretics, under the name either of Caians, Antidicomarianites, o● Collyridians, Heres. 38, 78. etc. & that in as bitter manner as may be, using the same speeches & reasons against them, that we do now usually in these days against these. Now where, they would shift of the absurdity, & blasphemy of robbing God, & his son Christ, of their due honour herein, in saying first, that their praying to the souls of Saints departed, may aswell stand with their honour, as the requiring of our brethren alive to pray for us, & then in affirming, that they beg nothing at their hands, but still they conclude their prayers unto them, with this clause, by the merits of our Lord jesus Christ, they cannot so escape or excuse themselves. For neither do they only desire the Saints departed, to pray to God for them, as we do our brethren here whiles they live, neither do they always remember so to conclude their prayers unto them. For in their office, which they call the service of the blessed Marie, there be three prayers made unto her, wherein, no less than eternal life is begged directly at her hands, & yet there this clause is quite forgotten. The like may be observed, in many other prayers of theirs to them, as for example, in their prayer to S. Osmund confessor, in one to S. Anne, and in an other to S. Katherine. And if it were so, that they so shut up all their prayers unto them, what were that else, then to make Christ mediator betwixt us & them? For can we in any words, more plainly acknowledge Christ's effectual mediation betwixt us and his father, then by requiring all things that we beg of his father per dominnm nostrum jesum Christum, by our Lord jesus Christ? Then what is this else, but for their pleasures to put him from his old office, of being mediator betwixt God and man, to make him now mediator betwixt men and women alive, and the souls of other men & women dead? They say in their manner of praying, they never cause the Saints any more to encroach of his office of mediation, than we do when we desire one another being alive, to pray to god for us, what say they then to that prayer of theirs in the name of Thomas Becket: Tu per Thomae sanguinem, quem pro te effudit, fac nos, Christ, scandere quò Thomas ascendit. That is, O thou Christ, by the blood of Thomas, which for thee he shed, make us ascend thither, whither Thomas is gone. They know this is, or was, in their portuisse. But if this be not plain enough, both to make it appear that they pray otherwise to the Saints departed, than we do to them alive: & that in their praying to them, most blasphemously contrary to all holy ancient father's judgement, consent of all Christian nations, prescription of all ages, and the holy scriptures themselves, mark (Christian Reader) these further precedents. In the mass of the annunciation they sing thus to Mary, Salue virgo virginum, mediatrix hominum, all hail virgin of virgins, the mediatrix of men: and in the mass of the conception thus, Tu spes certamiserorum, verè matter orphanorum, tu lenamen oppressorum, medicamen infirmorum, omnibus es omnia. That is (speaking to the same Mary) Thou art the certain hope of the miserable, truly the mother of orphans, the help of the oppressed, the medicine for the sick, to all thou art all things. Infinite such examples there be, whereby it is most clear, that nothing can be begged of God himself which they beg not of the saints, & that no title can be given to god but they have given it to one Saint or other. Besides all this, we must consider that the children of God being alive are commanded to pray one for another, & that by speech, letter, or messenger, they know how to acquaint one another with their mind: whereas in praying to their souls after their death, we have neither commandment so to do, neither can we indeed persuade ourselves, that whatsoever we say unto them, they hear and see our minds, unless we think now after once they be in heaven, they are invested in the very nature of God himself, & so are become aswell as he, searchers & scers of the hearts & rains: which once to imagine because it is extreme blasphemy, therefore their is infinite difference, even for these reasons betwixt desiring a Christian brother alive to pray for us, & the desiring of his soul departed but once to do so much for us. Again if that were but all they do in praying to the Saints departed, then howsoever (because of our frailty that sticketh by us whiles we live) it were necessary one of us to require that at the hands of another, that so the better we may perform the duty one to another, yet their is not the like reason, why we should so call upon them that are departed, though they could hear us, for they being where they have laid aside all frailty and forgetfulness of their duties: it being supposed to be their duties to pray for their brethren & sisters in Christ alive, we may be sure they will do it without our remembering of them thus. But now no more of these two points here, for ca thirty seven, I have spoken again somewhat largely thereof, where I have showed both when and how these corruptions came in, and who resisted them also.  
Wherefore to go on with confutation of the objection which I have undertaken to answer, concerning that point, when and by whom the Romish religion came in, and who spied it and confuted it: besides the points already touched, amongst many other wherein we differ from them, these are three principal, for the which I account both them & their religion Antichristian, their doctrine of transubstantiation, of images, and vowed single life, and yet in these they brag of fathers, consent of Christian regions, and prescription of time, as in the former. To answer therefore both that demand concerning these points, also and to strip them withal of that vizard of antiquity and universality, that herein along time they have deceived the simple people withal, understand, well-beloved in the Lord whosoever thou art, first for transubstantiation, the very archpiller of their synagogue, that if they be very busy to seek out who first gave inkling of such a matter, they shall find indeed the original thereof not to come from Mark the Evangelist, or any of his fellowship, but from one Mark a notable Magician, and filthy heretic of the brood of Valentinian, that lived, as it seemeth by the stories, in the reign of Antoninus Pius, about one hundred and fifteen years after Christ. For Epiphanius in his thirty four heresy noteth, and when he hath done plentifully confirmeth, it out of the first book of Irenaeus and his ninth chapter against the heresies of Valentinian & others, that this same heretic by his enchantment having first caused a cup of white wine to bear the colour of blood, made his followers believe that by his invocation over it, it was so transubstantiated into blood, that seeing that he had given thanks over it & long prayed, it might be thought of them that gratiam quae est super universa, sanguinem suum instillâsse in illud poculum, that is, that grace that is above all things, had poured his blood into that cup, by which means, when he had made them in admiration of him, desirous to drink thereof, he gives it them with great devotion & solemnity of words, & so wonderfully bewitched many. Indeed this fellow may very well be allowed, for the first ancient founder of this point of doctrine, for there being not any one point of popery, wherein Antichrist, hath more manifestly showed himself contrary to Christ, then in this, as in truth there is not, because for the establishing & use of this, he is both spoiled of the true nature of a man, & office of the only sufficient priest of the new testament, to offer himself once for all for the redemption of his church, who can be fit than this ancient enchanter Marcus, to be the first author and patron hereof? especially seeing Irenaeus speaking of him in the eight chapter of the foresaid book (as it should seem, secretly directed by the spirit of prophecy) saith, that he was verè praecursor Antichristi, that is, truly antichrist's forerunner. Yet how notably soever this Marcus caused many simple persons in his time, to believe his transubstantiation of wine, into the blood of Grace, yet he was so baited, detected, & confounded for his lewd and cozening dealing therein, and in other points by Irenaeus, Epiphanius, and others, that howsoever in the mean time, Antichrist his successor, was busy under Leo the 9 in a council at Vercellis, and after in the council of Lateran under Nicholas the 2. about the year of the lord 1060. in bringing Berengarius to recantation, to revive again this doctrine of transubstantiation, yet as their own friends confess, & namely, Tonstall in his book of the sacrament of Christ's body and blood, it could not, nor was not, decreed for a certain and universal doctrine, before Innocent the thirds time, in another council at Lateran, about the year of Christ 1215. before which council, the Greek Church had separated themselves from the Latin, and therefore it being a point of Doctrine, not received as Catholic, before that division, never since could it be received in the Greek Church for any Catholic truth. How can it then have countenance of all Christian Regions and times? Bertram, Berengarius & the Waldenses, in sundry places by writing & speaking, opposed themselves against it, as witnesseth bertram's book of the sacrament, the condemnation of Berengarius opinion about it at Vercellis, and the articles of the Waldenses. Yea a little before, and in this Pope Innocents time, a certain people about john de Albines Tolossa called Albigenses, and that in great & mighty multitudes (as the French Chronicles show) denied real presence of Christ under, or with the outward elements in this sacrament, in somuch, as great wars were raised to subdue them. But of this matter also I have spoken so much chapter eleventh & 17. that here I need thereof say no more.  
Now touching Images or Idols, and the worshipping thereof: I must needs confess that for their dealing about them, they may very well pretend both antiquity and universality. For it appears in all stories, and in the scriptures themselves, that that way, not only all other nations, but also even the people of the jews themselves, have been always wonderfully given to pollute and defile themselves, but withal it appears, that god in his word written, against no abomination hath cried out, either more often, or more vehemently, then against this. But amongst Christians, the first that we read of, that worshipped the image of jesus, or any other, was Marcellina a filthy companion of the fantastical heretic Carpocrates, but both in Epiphanius heresi 27. and in Augustine ad Quod vult deum, we find this, both noted & condemned amongst other detestable errors of the Carpocratians. This Carpocrates lived in the beginning of the empire of Antoninus Pius, Anicet then being Bishop of Rome, about the year of the lord 109. And in origen's time who died, as Spanhemensis saith, in the year of Christ 261. he in his seventh book to Celsus noteth that then the Christians neither suffered images nor pillars to be worshipped. Likewise in Arnobius, adversus gentes, who flourished about the 300. year after Christ, it appears, that the gentiles objected that, as a matter of disgrace, against the Christians, that they neither had, nor worshipped any such. But so far of was it, that the christians then thought it any disgrace unto them, that Origen in the place before quoted saith, that the jews & Christians hearing the law Exo. 20. not only refuse images of god, choosing rather to die, then to make or worship any such, adding this as a reason, that god is invisible & without body. And likewise Clemens Alexandrinus (who flourished 100 years before Origen) in his exhortation to the heathen, confesses willingly this their objection to be true, that Christians had no images that might be discerned by sense, but only by understanding, because to use that deceitful art, saith he, was forbid them. Yea and that Christians and their temples might continue still free from them in Constantine's time, in a council held in Spain at Eliberis, can 36. it was decreed thus, It hath pleased us to determine that no pictures should be suffered in churches, lest that which is worshipped or adored should be painted in walls. Isid. tom. 1. conci. And therefore Epiphanius 55. years after this council, about the year of Christ 390. as it appears in his Epistle to john of jerusalem, finding in the entrance of the church at Anablatha in that john's diocese, the image of a man pictured on a cloth there hanging, pulled it down & tore it asunder, & writing to the foresaid john about it (though as he confessed it seemed unto him that it was made for the picture of jesus or sun of the Saints) yet he condemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion, & therefore persuades him not to suffer any such thing any more, for it became him to banish such superstition which was unseemly for the Church of Christ. Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19 of his divine institutions saith flatly, that their can be no Religion where there is an image, he lived & flourished in the year 320. And S Augustine who lived after all these before named, for he died not before the year 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they even deserve to err which seek Christ and his Apostles, not in books, but in painted walls. Yea Gregory the great (as they call him) Bishop of Rome (though then the painting of stories for an ornament of the church was thought tolerable) yet he, lib. 7. Epist. 109. & lib. 9 Epist. 9 to Serenus, slatly condemneth the adoring & worshipping of images. And whereas by occasion of this tolerating of historical painting of them, through the superstition & corruption of man's nature, within short time by little & little the worshipping of them grew to be too much used & liked of many, especially in these Western parts & of the Bishops of Rome themselves: by the year of Christ 700. the Emperor Leo the third in a council held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops, there with the consent of that council decreed, that they should be quite removed out of churches & burnt, & severely he punishes those which notwithstanding would persevere in the worshipping of them. And the same course took his successor Constantine by another great council held their ratifying the former, & two Emperors more succeeding him, notwithstanding all this while the Bishops of Rome with stood them what they might & decreed as fast for the retaining & worshipping of them as they could, as it appears in Sigebert, Blondus & others. Howbeit though also in the time of Irene & the nonage of her son Constantine in the east, through the suggestion of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople, they got there a council held at Nicaea consisting of three hundredth & fifty Bishops, where to curry favour again with the Bishops of Rome (who upon the former occasion, as it appears in Sigebert & others, had been a shrewd traitorous means to cause these western parts to revolt from the empire) they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images. Yet afric & Asia the greater, could never be brought to receive those canons there made, yea & that more is, though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to translate the empire of the west unto him, so were those canons in this point misliked & contradicted here in thes western parts, that a council in his time & by his means, as the Emperor being called at Francford, whereunto came many Bishops of Italy, France, Germany & other countries, yet there even for this point was that council of Nice rejected & condemned as a wicked council, witness both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. & also one Hinckmare not long after those time's Archbishop of Rheims writing against another of his name than Bishop of jandune or Lavedune as some call it, ca 20. where he for further proof of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a book of purpose to be written & sent to Rome, containing at large a confutation of all the reasons used for images at Nicaea, which in his young years he saw, & which the keeper of the Pope's library Augustine Steuchus confesses to lie there written in ancient characters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59 nu. 60. And Roger Hovoden (who lived 400. years ago) in his continuation of Bedeas' story in the year 792. showing how Charles sent the canons of that council of Nice hither, wherein (as he saith) it was decreed that images ought to be adored, which the church of God utterly detesteth, reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determination, marvelously grounded upon the scriptures, which he carried into France (as he saith) in the name of our Bishops, by occasion whereof, the rather it should seem, shortly after Charles thought meet to call the foresaid council at Francford. All these things notwithstanding, never were images, pillars and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their, nor ever were idols more grossly adored of heretics, or the very pagans and heathen, than they have been & yet be of superstitious Papists. For they crouch & kneel unto them, present offerings before them, they run a pilgrimage unto them, and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour, that is due unto them, whose images and monuments they be, though in an other manner, not for their own sakes, but for theirs whose remembrances they be. But indeed if in worshipping of them, they did not principally respect the Images themselves, why should there not be as great devotion, as many pilgrimages, & as great offerings, presented & yielded to the image of Christ, Mary, or of any other: aswell in one place as in an other? Well, howsoever they will do wickedly herein, and when they have done, seek to colour the matter, such in truth all the world sees, herein hath been their dealing, that Euthymius in his panoply had never more cause to name the Armenians, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, Idolaters to the cross, for their gross and superstitious worshipping of it, than we have generally to count, and call, the Romanists flat idolaters for their behaviour towards it, and other images also. Thus then hoping by this, that I have said, concerning this point, that not only thou mayest see (goodreader) when, and how, this point of popery first came in, but how, and by whom, it hath been oppugned, but consequently also, that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture, fathers, consent of Christian regions, and all that she brags of, let us see if we can show the like, concerning the other point of forced single life upon the clergy, which she holds to be so necessary, and holy an ordinance, as that by no means without deadly sin it may be transgressed.  
Even in this, as in the former, if we search the monuments of antiquity well, we shall find that they have very ancient heretics, to be their first fathers & leaders. For the Tacianists commonly called Encratites of their abstinence from marriage, & certain other things, who began about the year, one hundred forty two, were great condemners of marriage, as appears in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum, & in Epiphanius, writing of them, Heresi. 46. After them sprung up the Manichees, who in like manner were enemies to marriage, but not so universally as the former, for they permitted it to others, and restrain only their clergy from it, whom they called their elect, as August: witnesseth of them Epist. 74. but indeed as many as would be perfect, & had in any great reckoning amongst them, they were in any case to abstain from marriage. And as we find, that these and other heretics, were the forerunners of the Papists in this point, so we find that Augustine, Epiphanius, and others, that wrote against them, condemned this for a doctrine of devils in them. But I know they will reply, that herein we do them wrong in that we resemble them to these, for these, they say, made this the reason and ground of their doing, that they held marriage itself, to be an unclean and filthy estate of life, and therefore not fit for them, that would serve the Lord, to live in. Which, they say, they do not hold. Indeed, thus it is their fashion, when for any of their absurd errors, they are pressed with our objections against them, than somewhat to avoid the extremity of the foil, to set a far better state of the question, than otherwise, either their common practice or doctrine will bear: but when they find the chase ended, and themselves by such shifting in some sort, as they think, to have escaped, then having recovered their breath again, they fall to their old flat grossness in the point in their life and teaching. And even so deal they in this. For their whole and general practice, makes it most evident, in that they rather tolerate their Priests to have concubines, to run to the stues, yea and to commit Sodomitry, then to marry, that indeed they think marriage is more unclean, and defiles their Priesthood more than all these. And Dist. 82. Gratian cities a saying of Pope Siritius, wherein, in plainer terms he advouches them that holds, that ministers of the Gospel may marry, and beget children as the Priests of the old testament did, to be followers of lusts, and therein teachers of vice. From which profound divinity it came, that the same Siritius would persuade, that therefore the ministers of the Gospel might not marry, because Saint Paul said, they that live in the flesh cannot please god, as though to live in the flesh with Paul, and to live in the state of marriage were all one: which if it had been so, what meant S. Paul to teach 1. Cor. 7. that he that bestowed his daughter in marriage did well, that marriage is honourable Heb. 13. and that they that deny in hypocrisy, the lawfulness thereof, are such, as have therein given ear unto doctrines of devils, and thereby show, that their consciences are burnt, as it were, with an hot iron, and that they are departed from the faith 1. Tim. 4. But they will say perhaps, they are now ashamed of this old Siritius, & of his doctrine in this point. doubtless if they be not, there is just cause why they should, but I have two reasons why I think they are not: first, because he was Pope of Rome they know; then, because even of late one Gregory Martin, a great learned man (as they account him) writing against our English translations Chap. 15. sect. 2. writeth of this point even now (as though that Pope's spirit still directed him) flatly, that by marriage their Priesthood is profaned, and made mere laical and popular. Wherefore I see not, but that they are and may worthily still of us herein be said to be, the right scholars & successors of the former heretics. Howbeit this I must needs further grant them, that in perusing the writings of ancient fathers and Chronicles of times, I find even amongst them, that otherwise yet seemed to be Christians and not heretics, and that of very ancient time, and so from time to time, that have been favourers and urgers of single life in ministers. For I find by that that Clemens Alexandrinus hath written of this matter in the 3. & 7. book. Stromat, who flourished within 200. years after Christ, that then some earnestly urged single life, as a life most holy & fit for such. And I know that in the council of Nice, in Constantine's time, it was attempted, that there should be made a canon, to bind ministers universally to live single, without the use or company of wives: & that after that Siritius before spoken of, about the year 390. after him Gregory the first ann. 600. or thereabout, & after that sundry other Popes, namely & especially about 1000 years after Christ, & after; were marvelous eager and busy, by their own authority & decrees of counsels summoned by their means, to establish & ratify this point. Whereupon (as in other cuntreies' of these western parts, to please them withal) herein England many Bishops, as namely Lancfranke, Dunstane & Anselme, Archbishops of Canterbury, were marvelous forward in their times to further this device. By means whereof, many decrees passed in smodes and counsels, and many great things were attempted & done to this end. But yet then understand withal (well-beloved) that Clemens in the places before quoted, confuted & withstood notably these hypocrites, both by examples & reasons even now used by us against these their successors: that one Paphnutius in the council of Nice though unmarried himself, did so effectually withstand that attempt, that it did not there pass: that Siritius was by a Bishop of Terragon confuted & withstood: & that Gregory the first upon the finding of 600. children's heads, after the casting of certain great ponds near unto the abode of many, enforced to that vow of single life, revoked his determination (as it appeareth in an epistle of one Hulricke, Bishop of Augusta, to Pope Nicolas) upon this reason, that it was better to let than marry, than to give occasion of such murder. Further in Hildebrands' time, who after he was Pope was called Gregory the seventh, though we find that he of all that went before him, was herein most extreme and went furthest, yet notwithstanding we read in Sigebert, H. Mutius & others, that he and his decrees in this point were openly & stoutly resisted, not only at Constance & Mentz in Germany, but also by the Bishops of France, and other cuntreies' both by open preaching & living with their wives, do what he could, and his successors for a great space. He was the first that bound Bishops & Archbishops upon their oath to admit none into the ministry, unless first they would vow a single life: & yet after he had done what he could, & Pascalis that succeeded him, & Anselme also their chaplain here, to cause that decree to take place: yet, as our Chronicles show, Gerhardus Archbishop of York, wrote to that Anselme, that those that came for orders to him would not vow single life. And howsoever they prevailed in other places before, Polidor saith, that the restraint of their marriages began here first to be attempted ann. 670. hist. Ang. l. 6. & de inventoribꝰ rerum l. 5. & Fabian p. 293. writeth, that Bishops & Priests lived here 1000 years together with their wives, no law being to the contrary. Yea aventinus l 5. historiae Biorun saith, speaking of Hildebrands time which was 40. years at least after this, that Priests had wives & begat children as other men. And none of any learning are ignorant, that all these stirs about this matter notwithstanding, Christian Bishops & ministers in all other quarters of the world, under the other patriarchs from the beginning unto this day, have been, are married & beget children also, after they are entered into the ministry. This also is as well known of the learned, that not only particular learned men, & holy fathers, as I noted before, & others: but also sundry counsels, where multitudes of such fathers have met, have written & decreed to withstand & contrary the going forward of this Antichristian ordinance. Yea they themselves are not ignorant hereof, as it appears by sundry things set down both in their text and gloss dist. 81.84. & elsewhere in their Canon law. For in the 28. distinction, is noted a decree of the council of Gangra, which was about 300. years after Christ, whereby he is by the authority of that council anathematized, that shall for his marriage put difference betwixt a married ministers ministry, and another, and therefore abstain from communicating with him, and there also is cited a canon fathered of the Apostles, whereby he is accursed, that puts away his wife for Religion sake. And in the sixth general council held at Constantinople, these things are remembered with other, and therefore there it was decreed, Tom. Conc. 2. cap. 13. that he shall be deposed, that after that, should go about to debar Priests, or deacons, either of marriage, or of the use of their wives, yea after ordination: and there also, further it was enacted, that if they themselves being ordered, should under pretence of piety put away their wives, that they shall therefore be excommunicate, and yet this was 680. years after Christ. Moreover Hierom speaking of his time, saith, that then, plurum sacerdotes habebant matrimonia, that is, most Priests were married, adversus iovinianum, libro. 1. Tertullian himself was a married man, as it appeareth by his writing to his wife. To hold that ministers may not marry, Ignatius ad Philadelphenses saith, comes of the devil: And Dionysius Corinthiacus writing to the Gnosians persuades their Bishop Pinitus, not to impose an unnecessary, & too heavy a burden of single life, or chastity upon the brethren, as we read in Euseb. lib. 4. cap. 22. Lastly, S. Bernard (though he lived about the year 1120. which was a very corrupt time for this matter,) yet even he, in his sixty sixth sermon upon the Canticles, thus far concerning this point hath plainly written. Take from the church honourable matrimony, & the bed undefiled, saith he, and thou fillest it with concubine keepers, with incestuous persons, with such as have unclean issues of seed flowing from them, with wantoness, with Sodomites, and all kind of unclean persons. But when the bright evidence of these allegations, seem to make them somewhat to bold down their heads, yet I know they have this shift for their last refuge, that they deny not, but that such as have been married, or at that present, have wives, may enter into the ministry, but then they must be such, as voluntary will vow, and perform a single life, and so thence forth abstain: insomuch that they are so in love with this shift, that they say, & write, as is to be seen in the Rhemish notes upon the new testament, that Paul's canons, touching the being of such the husbands of one wife, are so to be understood, & not so, as that then, or after once he is minister, he may continue the office of a husband towards his wife, and confidently they dare and do brag, that we never read of any other that married, or got children after they entered once into holy orders. Wherein first the practice of the Greek Church, & all other Churches, but these in these parts of the world, directly crosses them. Again let Paul's words in delivering of his canons concerning the qualities that ministers ought to have, be well considered, and any man shall see, that it is absurd so to understand him, that he requires that they should be so qualified only de praeterito for the time past, & not rather especially for the time present and to come. Seeing they are so confident in this, that none married ever, or begot children after they were ministers, let them tell me of whom Peter had his daughter Petronella, of whom their own Croniclcs speak so much, had he her not of a lawful wife? And if it be true, that we read, that in the persecution under Domitian, she was of such flourishing years, that then Flaccus, a noble Roman county would have had her to wife, the time betwixt that and Peter's entering upon his Apostleship, being at the least, fifty five years after Christ, by all likelihood she was got after he was an Apostle. And well might it be, for it being evident, that Christ had taught them, that unless it were for fornication no man should forsake his wife Math. 19 and therefore that Paul hath noted, that the brethren of the Lord and Cephas, did carry up and down in the execution of their Apostleshippes their wives, being also converted aswell as themselves, and therefore sisters 1. Cor. 7. taking maintenance for themselves & then as they went, that sometime in that peregrination of theirs, in the discharge of their office, this Petronella was borne. For it being evident by the Gospel of Math. 8. that Peter had a wife, and by their own stories, that she was a live a little before his death, & at Rome with him, & that he counted not his Apostleship fornication, & that neither he would leave his wives company & take other women with him, nor that she came to Rome rather in the company of other men, than of him her own husband: too too gross and absurd is it with them to think, that he & the rest of the Apostles that had wives, forsook their wives quite and went up and down rather after the popish manner accompanied with other women. Their translating and perverting the order of Paul's words, a woman, a sister, will not defend their interpretation, for he placeth his words thus, a sister, a wife, where in the later place it is absurd, the Greek word being that which sometime standeth generally for a woman, sometime for such a woman as is also a wife; to take it in the former sense, for then therein there were a needless tautology, for there is no sister, but she is a woman also. But to leave Peter with his wife and daughter, what can they say to Socrates, who in his fift book and twentieth one Chapter of his story, writeth that omnes praesbyteri illustres, that is, all renowned ministers in the East and Bishops also, if they will, no law compelling them, may obstaine from their wives, for not a few of them, whiles they are Bishops, beget children of their lawful wives. Historiae tripartitae lib. 9 ca 38. Again the 10. canon of the Ancyran council testifieth of many authentical examples of such as married after holy orders. Moreover in the days of julian the apostata we read, that Basilius a Priest of Ancyra and Eusichius a minister at the least of Caesarea of Cappadocia, which had lately taken to wife a gentlewoman, and was but then as a bridegroom, both ended their lives in martyrdom, as writeth Zozomene lib. 5. cap. 10. and Balfamon long after, upon the 10. canon of the council of Ancyra, mentioneth a decree of Leo the Emperor, whereby it was lawful for them within two years after they were ordered to marry. And who can be persuaded, that we reading of so many famous Bishops that were married, as namely of Demetrianus of Antioch, of Spiridion in the council of Nice, & of Gregory Nazianzen & others, and of infinite children of these Bishops & of others of the ministry, as we do in all stories: that they got none of these children after their ministry, or that they left their wives presently upon their entering into their ministry, especially seeing the stories that tells us they were married & names us their children, mentioneth no such thing? Howsoever it were with these, it evidently appears in his 70. and 127. epistles, that there was one Synesius an excellent learned man, Bishop of Ptolemais who was not only a married man, and had children, but that he begot children of his lawful wife, being and continuing still in the execution of his office. And many more such examples might be remembered, but these are sufficient to show the impudence of their confident assertion, that there were never any such: and this which I have faied, I hope, also is fully sufficient to show not only the vanity of his brag that made this preface, that all is well with them and countenanced by fathers, consent of regions etc. but also to answer the demuande or objection which I took upon me, upon that occasion, to answer in this place, concerning the beginning and proceeding of popery, and how and by whom it was resisted. For even, as I have showed, they lack all the countenance they brag of, for those particular points that I have here spoken of, & have made it plain, that both their beginning and proceeding hath been noted and withstood: even so is it an easy matter to deal with them, in all the rest of the points wherein they and we differ, as ere thou hast red this my answer to Albine thorough, I hope, I shall make unto thee full demonstration. Wherefore thou mayest in the mean time hereby learn, to arm thyself against such proud brags, as notwithstanding thou hast hard the author of this preface make. For I hope even by this, whatsoever he hath said to the contrary, thou most plainly seest, that neither scripture, fathers, consent of regions, nor continuance of time can prove, that they have, as he brags, the true Gospel, and the true sense of it, the true Christian Religion, & the true Church & spouse of Christ, who have in these main & principal points been controlled and condemned, in all these as I have showed. Whatsoever therefore he infers or builds upon this false principle, or whatsoever after, upon the bare supposing the same to be true, thou shalt read john de Albine railingly in his triumphant & arrogant manner to speak, in disgrace of us, our Church, ministers or Religion: I hope, I say, thou wilt esteem of it, as of vain and foolish words, of proud and yet malicious adversaries. Yet having thus answered in this sort his preface, somewhat the better to prepare thee to judge of john de Albine, and my answer unto him: give me leave now to say somewhat concerning his book and his manner of dealing therein.  
Wherefore to proceed, having perused and as thoroughly, as I could, considered of it (gentle Reader) I protest unto thee upon what occasion soever it hath got such credit amongst men of his own consort, that it hath not only of them been thought worthy to be published in English, but also to be entitled, A notable discourse against heresies, I have found it, and so shall any indifferent Reader of this my answer unto it, not able at all to do either good or harm, but only to such as are very simple, unlearned and silly ignorant creatures. For the principal questions in hand, either always he takes for granted, and so never goes about to prove them: or subtly & suddenly (seeming to have undertaken the proof of them) he slippeth into another matter, and therewith goeth on lustily, as though he were busy about the point in controversy, when as indeed he hath left that quite, and chosen to himself some other matter more easy for him to deal in, either not at all in controversy, or howsoever, to small purpose for the proof of the thing intended. And yet thus he seemeth unto himself, and unto his unskilful Reader, to have won the cause and to carry all before him, when indeed he hath said quite nothing to the purpose, and hath busied himself only about that which was needless: which to the end that thou mayest the better observe thyself in the rest of his book, I will give thee a taste of, in the beginning thereof. Understand therefore, that whereas his general and principal scope is, in his whole discourse, to disgrace our ministry, and the whole matter thereof, our Religion: that so having once persuaded his Reader, that we have neither lawful ministers, nor sound Religion, he might consequently boldly pronounce us to be heretics, and our whole Church schismatical & heretical. To effect this his purpose, because he soresawe, that first it were necessary that he should justify their own ministry and Religion, before he should so call ours into question: first he laboureth about that in the first eight Chapters, & then striveth about the other in the rest. But mark now, I beseech thee, how he makes his entry into this so weighty and necessary a point. Whereas indeed out of the fift to the Hebrews we object (as he confesseth) that their calling to their Priesthood & Prelacies cannot be of God, because their very offices themselves were never of Gods own ordinance, but only of man's own devising: though to answer this objection, every man might see, and he himself saw (as it appears by his own words ca 1.) that it was most necessary for him first to have proved, that their offices were of God's institution, and not of man's invention only, like a cunning Sophister, he slips from that, promising after in some other place to prove it, which yet though it stood him in this his discourse never so much upon, he never so much as once remembreth or mentioneth again. And therefore thus only supposing and taking this for granted, that their Priesthood and Prelacies are of God (which he knows we will never grant them) he takes upon him to prove only their coming thereunto to be lawful, which he proves as slenderly also. For to prove it, he only saith, that they come to them by the ordinary way, by right succession of Bishops and pastors, continuing in one Catholic faith, down from Christ to this present time: thus childishly begging in one piece of one short sentence these four great points (all which in this case are betwixt us and them in question) namely, that their officers all of them, come to their rooms by the ordinary way, that they have right succession, right Bishops and pastors, and sound and Apostolic doctrine. And yet though he knew well enough, that we constantly deny all these, yet to prove that they come lawfully to their offices, he only nakedly and barely affirmeth them, as though he presumed, that he was and should be such a Pythagoras, in the conceit of all his Readers, that for him once to say it, were enough and enough again. For by and by after that thus he had only said, having used neither proof nor colour of proof to back his saying, he slippeth into another matter, not yet called in question: Wither a visible, known, and always a demonstrable, personal, and local succession of Bishops & pastors, be necessary for the perpetual continuance of the Church, and preservation of the truth therein? And thus he windeth from matter to matter, leaving always that unproved, which he had most need to have proved, labouring & sweeting continually about the proof of that, which though it were granted him, yet he might well enough lose his cause. As for example, having entered into the foresaid matter in manner before said, in 3. or 4. whole Chapters following, he shows how the truth is continued in the Church by succession of pastors, how profitable their ministry is, to bring men to, & to settle them in the truth, that the ancient trodden way by Christ's sheep, down from Christ to this day, that the ancient Catholic faith, that the faith which in Irenaeus and Augustine's time was held and taught at Rome, & had unto their times been continued from Christ by succession of Bishops and pastors, is the way and faith that a Catholic man must live and die in, whosoever saith to the contrary. In which propositions, no marvel though he go on roundly, for he hath wind and weather with him, & none of us gainesaies him; yea these things being rightly understood, we constantly affirm and teach the same But these things being all granted him, what is he nearer his cause, seeing as yet all the sort of them never could, nor shall be able to prove, that their pastors succeed Christ, his Apostles, or the ancient holy Bishops & pastors, that were before Irenaeus & Augustine's time, in teaching the same doctrine that they taught? But herein is his popish subtly, that standing thus upon these points, he would have his Reader grant him all these: that their succession of Priests & Bishops is that succession of pastors, so profitable for the continuance of the truth and Church: that their Romish Religion that now is, is that ancient way that Christ's sheep have always trod, & so the ancient Catholic Religion which in Irenaeus & Augustine's time, they & the holy pastors & Bishops at Rome and else where had, sound succeeding one another from the Apostles, continued in unto that time; which are things whereof not one, the Pope and all his confederates shall ever be able indeed to prove: and therefore it seemeth john de Albine thought it good policy, seeing these things could be got no otherwise, to try whether he could get them thus by flat begging of them. And it seemeth also, that he presumed, that he should come only to such liberal men's doors, that all these should be granted and given him, even at the very first ask: for always after he behaves himself in such sort, as that without all peradventure he had them all granted him. Only a little in his thirty seventh Chapter, belike somewhat growing ashamed of his shameless begging all the while before, he gins to make show, that if men should be so hard hearted, as to deny him, that their pastors, doctrine and Church are sound & Catholic, that he is able to prove them so to be, whither such will or no. And yet even there, when all comes to all (though indeed he brag, that he could and would, but for being too tedious to his Reader, justify the rest of their doctrine, by the testimony of a number of doctors, holy confessors and martyrs) he only by mustering of a sort of dumb doctors upon the stage, makes his poor Reader believe, that in the places quoted by him, they speak directly to justify their ceremonies, their Auricular Confession, prayer for the dead and to the dead, as though these were the principal matters in controversy betwixt them and us. But doubtless he knew well enough, that no one of his Readers amongst an hundred, would and could turn the places, and so try whither the men he name, make there so for him or no. For otherwise, for shame he would not have quoted them so negligently, falsely and corruptly, as when I come to that place, I shall show thee he hath. These things considered (Christian Reader) thou must be very simple and have before hand thy mind wholly forestalled with his false principles, or else he shall win with thee little credit to his cause, or disgrace to ours. Howbeit, seeing both his whole drift, and his publishers in his preface, was (as it evidently thereby appears) under the odious names of heretics and schismatics, to disgrace us and the truth that we profess (as though it were not once to be called in question, whither they and their crew, were the only sound Catholics and Christians in the world) before I let thee proceed, & come to the view of his declamation made to that end, and of my answer thereunto: this upon good and most clear ground I protest unto thee and assure thee, what brags soever he, or any other of his fellows make, of their popish and Romish Religion, that now is processed amongst them: besides all other things that can or may be said against it, it is such a Religion, and their Church the upholder thereof such a dame, as is the very nurse and bawd of monstrous impiety, as is intolerably injurious to the right of the good estates of all Christian Princes and their people; and as lastly (howsoever it may seem to carry a show of holiness) it is not so, but indeed cunningly under the colour thereof, aimeth at no mark more, then to advance the pride, pomp, and gain of her lovers. The first is evident, in that their doctrine of their Pope's supermacy is such, as that for money he may pardon any sin (as their practice teacheth) either committed, or to be committed: yea their very Hedge-priestes by the authority of the power of absolution given unto them, upon penance done, how light soever, if it so seem good unto them, have and do take upon them marvelously, that way to breed immunity and impunity, by their absolving whom & for what they list. Their doctrine also of satisfaction for sin, in that they allow sprinkling of holy water, going on pilgrimage, doing of this outward trifling thing, or that, which easily may be done of any carnal man, to be good satisfactory meane● to answer God withal for their sins: how can it be otherwise but the people measuring and judging of sin according thereunto, must needs think sin, that can be satisfied for so easily and lightly, to be but a sleight matter. Their doctrine also of ear shrist, is likewise a means to acquaint their single priests, with all the lewd huswives in their parishees, and so an acquainting of them, with the tricks & ways how, and the parties with whom, they may commit filthiness. Yea their forced single life (as experience notoriously hath taught) hath infected earth and air, with monstrous uncleanness of the flesh, both inward and outward, natural & unnatural, & with infinite murders of poor infants, the better still to hide their iniquity. And while they teach that simple fornication is not so ill in their clergy, as to use a lawful wife, that the first inward motions to sin or concupiscence not consented unto, be no sins, that many sins even for their own littleness are venial, & not worthy of damnation: they make men secure for these, and so the fit & bolder to go on in the rest. Their doctrine and practice of dispensations, and pardons for money, for clergy and people almost for any thing, is, and must needs be, the root and fountain of wonderful many abominations. Their doctrine of sanctuaries, privileges, exemptions, and immunities of their clergy & others, are very great occasions of sin and impiety. Lastly, the ambition, pride, tyranny, pomp, gluttony, wantonness and insatiable covetousness of their Popes, Cardinals and Prelates, makes all, whom they bewich with their religion, to think, that they are not to be blamed, if in these things they imitate then their holy fathers: & marvelously are they encouraged to continue and spend their days in these, & in all other sins, when as by their doctrine they are put in hope, if they die (believing blindly as the church believes, providing of their goods, which they must needs leave behind them, somewhat liberally, that masses, dirges & trentals may be said and sung for them, and that such other things done as than their ghostly father shall appoint them) that in the end they shall do well enough, how loosely and lewdly soever otherwise they lived before.  
The second point also, is many ways clear and apparent. For first by their doctrine of their Pope's supremacy, where it is in the full force, Emperors, Kings & Queens, are thereby made and marred at their pleasure: they must not think scorn of most base service and subjection to them, their subjects shall be bound to pay them tribute no longer, or to yield them any manner of other duty, further than they list: yea it shall be lawful for them, to conspire against their natural Princes, & by any means they can, to devise to deprive them both of their lives and kingdom, if so the Pope command them. Nay not only upon the Pope's commandment and pardon, shall this of them be counted lawful and meritorious: but if any of his own motion undertake such a thing, of a devout mind to his holmes and religion, the encouragement and absolution of every masspriest shall be sufficient, to justify the action, and to cause the party, that hath done it, to be canonised a Saint for his labour. Further for the establishing of this archpiller of popery, their Pope's supremacy, Princes are deprived of the election of their Prelates, and they are by oath so obliged to the Pope, and so freed from the jurisdiction of their lawful Prince, that they may and dare beard their Princes: and howsoever they will take liberty to enjoy great promotions under them, yet in effect they are no subjects unto them, but rather altogether stand at the devotion of this foreign Potentate. Secondly, by the pretended right of this their supremacy, for the better maintenance of the swelling pomp thereof, to the great weakening of Christian states, they have taken upon them, and yet do, when they may be suffered, by their annates, Peeter-pences, Paul-fees, first-fruits, tenths, lones, oppressions, taxations, impositions, and infinite such other devices, savouring of nothing else, but of insatiable covetousness, to convey away the treasure, riches, and wealth of every country, from out of it to Rome. And by this their supremacy, they have first weakened, after rent in two, & lastly brought in effect to nothing, the glorious Roman Empire, that so the better they might have room to grow up in, and that for their sins in the justice of God, Christendom might the more easily become a prey to the Turk. Thirdly, by the devise of their Auricular Confession they have, and may have, most perfect intelligence of the secrets of all states where they have to do, than which can any thing in these outward things be more dangerous, to the safe and good estate of Princes? Fourthly, by the force of single life, they have caused privies, and ponds, & such other by corners to swallow up and destroy, in every Christian kingdom where they ruled, as many infants, as might, being grown to be men, have been able, in the field, to defend there Prince and country against all the enemies thereof: which what a weakening to Christian Princes and their kingdoms it hath been, who seethe not? These things therefore considered, it is to be marveled, that any Christian state, can or will tolerate, either them, or their religion in it.  
And as for the last point, that so their religion might fit the title appointed it by the Spirit of God, that is, that indeed it might prove itself to be, 
2. Thess. 2.  a very mystery of iniquity, even throughout under the show of holiness and devotion, they always have hid, nourished, and maintained gross iniquity, and have aimed at nothing more, then at their own pomp and advantage. For their doctrines of freewill, of man's ableness to keep and over keep the law of God, of merits & satisfaction for ourselves or others alive or dead, of the mediation of Saints or Angels: and their doctrines, that the Pope cannot err, that he hath such supremacy as they give him, and that the scriptures have their sense and authority from his allowance thereof, howsoever they paint these things with the goodly shows of care to provoke and encourage men to good works, and with devotion to Saint Peter & the mother church: yet who is so simple or weak sighted, but that through these colours, he may and doth discern God & his son Christ blasphemously rob of that which is their right, man to be occasioned to swell with a conceit of his own ability: and that the final mark, that all this tends unto, is, by the selling of other folks overplus merits and satisfactions under, and in the names of pardons, to enrich the Pope and his Priests, and by the rest to set up themselves in the very seat of Antichrist? They pretend the glory of Christ, and of Peter, and Paul, in the doctrine of the supremacy: but it is the feeding of their own pompous & tyrannous ambition, that in truth they seek in it. In their swarms of Monkeries & Friaries they pretend wilful poverty, and an utter forsaking of the world, and yet all the world seethe, that to maintain themselves therein in idleness, belly-cheer, and all kind of worldly and carnal pleasure, they had houses like Princes, and revenues & maintenaunces, like great Lords of the world. They have pretended, that they would have Emperors and Kings in no case to give bishoprics and benefices, to prevent Simony: whereas their practice hath made it clear, that their Popes have taken that into their own hands, but to make the clergy more to stand at their devotion, and less at their Princes, and that they & theirs might use that occupation and trade of Simony, as most proper unto themselves. They pretend charity and compassion in their pardons and indulgences, devotion and care to relieve souls by their masses, dirges, and trentals, and an intent to fray men from sin by their doctrine of Purgatory: but every man seethe, that it is only money, or money worth, that hereby they fish for. The unity of the church is pretended, when they seek to establish most their own tyranny: the honour and glory of the church (they say) they seek, when it is most plain, that it is only their own glory and honour they care for. In the maintenance of their doctrine of transubstantiation, they would seem marvelous devout and religious in urging of the letter, and in captiving their own senses and reason thereunto, whereas indeed that course they take, that so their Priests may grow to honour and wealth, while thereby the people are made believe, that they can make and offer their redeemer, for the salvation of quick and dead. Devotion to the Saints they pretend in teaching, that they are to be prayed unto and worshipped, but therein their devotion is like unto Demetrius his for Diana of Ephesus: for if it were not for the gains they get by offerings unto their shrines, they would not be so hot therein. Their doctrine of penance carries a show of mortification, but it is but thereby to triumph over the people at their pleasures, and in the end to make a gain by changing their penance, or by making them to believe, that they will relieve them by their prayers, pardons, and masses. To conclude, I dare be bold to say, that there is never a proper point of popery, but the practice and profession of it would quickly grow very cold, if that the maintenance thereof made not, either directly to advance their worldly credit with their followers, or their lucre and commodity. And therefore thou mayest see even by this (whatsoever they brag of their Church and Religion) that even for these three reasons, they, both of every wise state, & consequently also of thyself (Christian Reader) ought to be shunned and avoided. These things then, that I have said, well considered and remembered, I will now no longer detain thee from taking a view of that, which (this notwithstanding) Albine hath written, either in the defence of this his Religion, or to the disgrace of ours: requesting only this at thy hands, that as thou goest, thou wouldst take the pains without partiality, to read and confer that, which I have written to answer him withal, Chapter by Chapter with his book. And thus hoping that thou wilt do, I commend thee and thy study therein, to the direction and good protection of God, & myself unto thy hearty prayers unto him, in my behalf.  
Thine in the Lord, THOMAS SPARK.    

A Notable discourse, plainly and truly discussing, who be the right ministers of the Catholic Church: written against Caluin and his disciples, by one Master john de Albine, called de Seres, Archdeacon of Tolossa in France. Duaci. per johannem Bellerum. 1575..  


The first Chapter.  
CALVIN your Patriarch doth lay to our charge a great and an outrageous boldness, saying (according to his opinion) that we have introduced or taken in hand the ministry of jesus Christ, without being called to it by him that did institute Aaron in the said estate. And because that he himself can better than I express his complaint or accusation, I think it best to set forth his own writings, which, according to his disciples opinions, are of great force & virtue. His words, as you may read, are these. Seeing that the Papists hear S. Paul say, 
In his book of Jnsti. cap. 18. Art. 58. Hebr. 5.  that no person ought to take upon him, or usurp the name and the honour of Priesthood, but he that is called to it as Aaron was. And that jesus Christ took it not upon himself, but did obey the vocation of his father, either they ought to show, that God is the Author and institutor of their priesthood, or else they must confess, that they are not called of God, seeing that of their own boldness they have taken it in hand.  
These are Caluins words, by the which the reader may gather, that Caluin doth enjoin us to render him an account of our vocation. And although that it be so, 
L Simo quis ad si, ad leg. Jul. de nil. publ. etc.  that by the Civil law one ought to try the right of the possession, before he come to demand it, & the spoil (as we are to him and his fellows, as touching our Temples and revenues in many places) ought to be restored again before the suit proceed: Yet, releasing this that the law doth allow us, we are content to answer to his demand: adding this request thereto, that both you that are his disciples, and he, do make ready your papers to answer us the like as touching yours. But before I proceed in mine answer (under correction of a man that thinks to have such good eyes) me seemeth, that his argument is but very simple, to say, that if we cannot show, that God is the author of our Priesthood, that we should be constrained to confess, that it is not of God, 
a Sophistry in taking that as spoken of your manner of calling to your Priesthood, which he spoke of the Priesthood itself. Numb. 16. 2. Pa●al. 26.  seeing that without being called, we take it upon us. For, what reason is there, I pray you, in this? for although it were so, that of our own private power and authority, without being called, we should take it upon us: it should not follow by that, that it is not of God. For by that reason one might say, that God was not the author of the priesthood of Aaron, seeing that Dathan, Abyron, and Ozias took it upon them of their own boldness; the which is not true. And as touching this, that he sayeth, that our order of Priesthood is not of God, we will prove that false in 
b But that place you find not in this book.  some other place: but at this time, we must treat of our vocation, to answer him and his complices, how and by what virtue we exercise our ministry.  

c This I deny, that you come to your calling in this sort, for neither is there right succession amongst your Bishops and Pastors, nor continuance in that truth which yet you say only & never prove.  We are called to this estate, according to the ordinary way: that is to say, by the right succession of Bishops and Pastors, and by the continuance of one Catholic faith, derived from the Apostles to our days, without the interruption of it universally: 
d That truth indeed hath always continued, and shall by the means of faithful teachers: but neither with you, nor by means of your teachers, is at all proved by there places. Math. 5. Ephes. 4.  for in divers places of the world it hath been ever clear and certain, manifestly shining like the light set on the table, to give light to all those of the house, and not under the bushel, to be shadowed with darkness. Saint Paul, 
e Peruse the place & you shall find, that though Paul reckon up there those ministries which should fully be sufficient for the Church, yet he once mentioneth not your greatest Prelacies. Howsoever therefore it may be as you hold they be, necessary and most necessary for the pomp of your Church, that so the better she might answer her pattern, Apoc 17. yet thereby we may see Christ's Church shall & may grow to her perfection & yet never be acquainted with them.  after that he had recited by order the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, I mean, of the Apostles, Prophets and evangelists, he doth declare at the last the cause why they were instituted, being for the edification of the mystical body of Christ, the which is the Catholic Church, until (saith he) that in the unity of faith we go to meet him. He taketh his similitude of many that come from diverse ways, and meet all in one way. 
f Indeed he plainly there teacheth, tha● there shall be always to that end, teachers in he Church, but he saith not, that they shall so succeed one another either in person or place, a● you would ●eene thereupon to build. For no such line of continual, local or personal succession, from his time to this day, can be produced.  And thus he means, that the spiritual edification of the Church, ordained of Bishops, Pastors and Doctors, shall endure, until that the Gospel be preached through all nations. By the effect of the which Gospel, both French, Spanish, English, Greek, Persian, Arabian, Latins, & Barbares, with many other nations which were too iedi●● to name, have met together, having of great antiquity all one kind of Catholic faith, by the Apostles and their successors for ever. As the some of God, before he suffered, did attain & arrive to the perfection of his age: even so, his mystical body of the Church shall continue in this world, until it be perfect in his members, and that the number of the chosen be accomplished. And even as a material building cannot be perfectly achieved without 
g We see and hear of many great & goodly buildings in the end perfited, in building whereof there have been many and sometimes long intermission.  continuance of workmen and masons: even so the spiritual building of the Church cannot be achieved, without the succession of Bi●●ops and Pastors, preaching, or causing the word of God to be preached, which is the very spiritual building, the which hath been ever common and visible in the Church, according to the prophecy of Esay. 
h Sap. ●1. say you, well hit: the place is in Esay 62.  Sap. 61. ●ho meaning to declare the care that God taketh as touching the preservation of his Church, he did say, as it were representing the state of Jerusalem. I have established and ordained 
i But few such have been in your time of succession, these many years.  watchmen upon he walls, the which shall never hold their peace, neither day ●or night. These watchmen are those, that have announced to us our sal●ation: They are the trumpets of jesus Christ, which never have left their ●ounding in the true Church of God, from the Apostles time unto this present day.   

AN ANSWER TO MASTER JOHN de Albines discourse against heresies, called and accounted by his friends, A notable discourse to that purpose; made by Thomas Spark, Pastor of Blechley in the county of Buck. .1591.  
Chapter first.  
CALVIN we esteem and account of, as of a rare & singular minister of Christ, & his writings (as they well deserve) we think reverently of; and you have tried them to be of great force & power, to shake the very grounds and pillars of your babylon building: but our Patriarch we neither account nor call him, though you in your third word take it, and therefore set it down for granted that we do. It seemeth, you think scorn, that he should charge your Priesthood not to be of God, and so to call you to an account of your vocation. Indeed I cannot blame you, that it grieveth you, that that should be called into question, seeing it is a thing you have bragged on so long, & have gained by (at the hands of the blind & ignorant) both all the credit & wealth you have, especially seeing also, that what words soever you use to countenance the matter, yet you shall never be able to justify it. Howbeit, as though not only you were able to answer Caluin to the full in this point: but also as though there were either some great impiety, or vanity (at the least) in his words, you recite them twice, admonishing your Reader, that they are his words. Be it that they be so, what have you said either to argue the least folly in them, or to justify your vocation in such sort, as therein he proveth you must, or else it cannot be of God? First you would prove Caluin in these words to offer you wrong, in that out of the 5 to the Hebr. he gathereth, that unless you can prove God to be the author of your vocation, it cannot be of God: because the Civil law prescribeth, that one should prove his right of possession, before he demand it, and that he should restore the spoil, before the suit proceed. But who seethe not, that that which he allegeth out of the 5 to the Hebr. doth more justify his demand, that either you must show, that god is the author of your Priesthood, or else confess, that you are not called of God: then any thing that you have noted out of the Civil law, can prove, that he offereth you any wrong in calling for this at your hands. Because you are an Archdeacon, it should seem, that you would feign that men should think (to the end you may be judged the fit man to execute your office) that you have some skill in the Civil law, in that you are thus ready, even at the first to cite it. For to small force else it serveth, for neither is your axiom so general, but that it notwithstanding rightly understood, a man may lawfully and orderly proceed, and yet first demand his right to possession, and after timely enough prove his demand thereunto to be both honest and just: neither doth Caluin or any of us claim any right of possession of your massing Priesthood, that you need bid us first prove our right thereunto. For we detest it as a thing Antichristian and utterly unlawful, and we hold that no sound Christian will ever plead for any right thereunto. And as for the spoil of your temples and revenneves, that you would have us to restore before the suit betwixt us proceed: we say again, that both law and reason tesseth you, that before you should so peremptorily call for restitution, you should prove the wrong. Which, neither you, nor none of your side (though to bewray what grieveth you most, namely the parting away from your fat morsels, unless your bare accusation were strait a conviction) have yet once proved against us, and therefore the action may proceed well enough against you, for any thing, that your Civil law can help you. We are in possession (we grant) of Churches and revenues, that heretofore you held in sundry places, but herein we have not wronged you at all, howsoever you count it a spoiling of you. For first, through the mercy of God to his Church, & of his justice towards you (your sins being grown ripe) by the light of his word, he made it appear, that you were wrong withholders of these things, in that they being founded, and given for the maintenance of a holy Ministry, for the sound feeding of people's souls, you used them for the support of an Antichristian Ministry, to poison the souls of men with his devilish doctrine and usages: & therefore, God secondly stirred up the hearts of Princes, and Christian magistrates, orderly to dispossess you thereof, & to give them unto such, as would use them better. Yea so far of is it, that either they or we can justly be said herein to have done you any wrong, or spoilt you, that we are able to prove, that you getting, and keeping them in your hands, for the cause aforesaid, most sacrilegiously spoiled the true Church of her revenues, converting them to the maintenance of the service of Antichrist, to the most dangerous robbing of the people's souls, of the food of life due unto them therefore, and for this cause you had wrong, that you were let alone with the possession of them so long as you were.  
Now, whereas before you will proceed to answer Caluins' demand, as a sharp Logician, you say, his argument seemeth unto you very simple, to say, that if you cannot show, that God is the author of your Priesthood, than you must confess, that it is not of God, seeing that without being called, you take it upon you. In reciting thus his words, you wilfully alter them, and frame his argument otherwise, than he made it. For he said not (you yourself being witness in setting down his words before) seeing that without being called ye take it upon you, but seeing of their own boldness (saith he, speaking of you) they have taken it in hand (having therein relation to the Priesthood itself) which if you cannot prove (as you never shall) to be instituted of God, it must needs follow, not only, that it is not of God, but that you have taken it in hand of your own boldness, as he saith, & so by most necessary consequent, your calling cannot be of God. So that he reasoneth not, from your running into your priesthood of yourselves without a calling (as by reciting his argument, altering his words as I have said, you would seem to understand him) to prove your Priesthood not to be of God: but from the unlawfulness of your Priesthood itself. For he was not so simple (I warrant you) but he knew as well as you, that many have, do and will hereafter intrude themselves, upon an office of Gods own ordinance: and that, notwithstanding their lack of lawful calling thereunto, the office yet remaineth holy, lawful and good. And therefore, he most plainly laboureth, to prove your popish calling to your Priesthood unlawful, whatsoever you make of your ordinary calling thereunto, because the Priesthood itself is not of God, & therefore such a thing, as you have taken in hand of your own heads, what ordinary calling soever by man you have thereunto. And therefore, as plainly as may be, he telleth you, by warrant of the 5. to the He. that either you must show, that God is the author & institutor of your Priesthood, or else you must confess, that it is not of God, but a thing taken in hand, or devised o● your own, boldness. And this to have been his purpose and drift, unless your eyes be very bad, and your wits yet worse, you could not choose but perceive. But this argument (belike) was to strong for you, & therefore (as in the like case, it is a common trick with the men of your faction) you thought best to frame you another weak enough, and so fit for your strength; which whiles you have laboured to confute, you have fought but with your own shadow, & slain a child of your own begetting. Your examples therefore of Dathan, Abiran & Ozias, you may take home again, & keep them in store, until you have more need of them. In the mean time remember, that though you have answered your own argument, yet Caluins standeth in his full force still against you. For though it follow not, you have entruded yourselves, therefore the office, whereupon you have intruded, is not of God, because these, which you named, intruded themselves upon the lawful Priesthood of Aaron: yet I hope how simple soever (and worthily) this argument of your own framing seemed unto you, that you will grant, that there is both strength & force in this, which is Caluins indeed: your Priesthood itself is but a bare ordinance, and devise of man, and hath not God for the author thereof; therefore whatsoever your calling be thereunto, it is unlawful, and not of God. If you would not have this conclusion verified of your calling, it is not enough for you to say, that you came to your Priesthood according to the ordinary way: nay it is not enough, to prove it, which yet you go not about; for commonly not only for this, but for all things else of importance through your book, your bold assertion is your only proof. For if the office itself be not of God, but a plant, which the heavenly father hath not planted, then howsoever you come unto it, your calling cannot be of God. A vain thing therefore is it in you, here or any where else, to spend words and time to show, how you attain your Priesthood, having not any where first proved, the Priesthood itself to be of God. That is the thing, that Caluin telleth you you must show, or else you must confess your calling is not of God, seeing it is but to an office, of your own boldness devised and taken in hand. And yet this being a thing, which (to justify your calling) it stood you upon most, & in the best manner you could, to have proved, yea without the proof whereof, all that ever you have said, or can say of never so ordinary a coming thereunto, is merely vain & frivolous: yet you say, you will not meddle with it here at this time, but you put it of to another place, not once finding time & place in this your discourse to speak a word of it again. Wherein at the first entrance, in the eyes of the wise, you have given your Priesthood a greater wound, than all that you have said, concerning the lawfulness of your vocation thereunto, can ever heal up again. For this thing being the most pertinent, & material thing, that could be (your drift and purpose in this discourse considered) for you to have laboured about, as about the soul of your cause, to give all the rest life: how could you persuade yourself, but that in thus shifting of this, though so thrust upon you by your own citing of Caluins' words, but that every one would strait judge, that you did it not, because you had no will to have proved it, but because you feared, that your skill would not serve you substantially to do it? And therefore in policy you thought it more wisdom, thus to pass it over, as though you could say enough thereof if you list, then by entering into it, to lay open your weakness to your friends, in so great a matter, at your first entrance into your book.  
Howsoever you have thought it the safest way in this place, to say nothing hereof, & for saving your credit to make show, as though you would say enough in some other: in the mean time, even here, the nature of your popish Priesthood considered, I confidently avouch, that neither you, nor all you together, can ever prove indeed, that it is of God. For the Scripture teacheth us, that Christ hath an everlasting Priesthood, and that he executed that office here, and doth still there, where he is, for his Church so perfectly, that he hath this prerogative, that he needeth no successors to continued his office, as the Priests of Aaron had, nor any other either to offer any new, or to iterate that sacrifice, which he offered himself for the salvation of man, he hath offered one so perfect, & so perfectly once for all: He. 7.23.24. & 10, 10. etc. which prerogatives the massing Priesthood robbeth him of, first, in that they will be his successors, in the office of Priesthood: and then, in that they take upon them, to offer him again in sacrifice to his father, for the sins (as they say) both of the quick & dead: & most blasphemously make themselves, in their offering him again to his father, mediators betwixt him and his father, praying him (as it appeareth in there mass-book) that he would favourably look upon, and receive those hosts, which they there offer unto him, for the souls of such and such. Ex missâ pro defunctis, ex secretis. Werefore, I dare be bold to say, that so far of is it, that their Priesthood is of God's ordinance, that most certainly it is of Satan's own devising, and is most injurious to the death and passion of Christ, and therefore Antichristian. Howbeit, seeing you have left Caluins' assertion, that it is not of God; standing without any refutation, and so are contented (until you better advise yourself, what to say against it, to let it stand still) in the mean season to render us account, of your coming unto it, upon condition, that we will make ready our papers, when you have answered us, to answer you, how we come by our Ministry: I am content to accept of this your condition, and so to hear first, what you can say, for the justifying of your vocation, and after when and where you call for it, to yield you an account of ours. But then in the mean time I must put you in mind, and pray the gentle reader to mark it, that for any thing you have said yet, Caluins' assertion against your office of Priesthood itself, that it is not of God, standeth in full force.  
You writ, that you are called to this estate according to the ordinary way, that is (say you) by the right succession of Bishops & pastors, and by the continuance of one catholic faith, derived from the Apostles to our days, without the interruption of it universally. This you say indeed, but what have you either here, or else where in this your notable discourse (for so either you or your friends call it) brought us to prove this? you cite here Mat. 5. Eph. 4. & a place out of Esay, with is there Cap. 62.6. (though in your book it be quoted Sap. 61.) but neither any of these, nor all these together do prove your saying to be true. For taking the places in your own sense, the things thereby proved are only these, first, that the true Catholic faith hath always so shined, that it hath given light at all times in one place or other to them within the house, that is, that be within the true Catholic Church & to such as be near thereunto and within the sight thereof: and that Christ will have continually even until his second coming, and until his Church be grown to her full perfection, his truth continued in his Church, by faithful Pastors and Ministers: and to this end serveth also (in your opinion) your similitude taken from a material building, which cannot be perfected without continuance of workmen until it be done: which yet carrieth with it a dissimilitude, even in the thing wherein you resemble it unto the Church. For we see by daily experience, that in material buildings, if they be great, there are often times great and many interruptions, and ceasings of the workmen, and yet in the end the building well enough prefected. But be it that these places prove these things, and that your unapt similitude hath no unfitness in it, what is all this to the purpose, doth it hereupon follow, that you come to your offices of Priests & Bishops as you have said? Because Christ hath always & will to the end preserve and continued the light of his truth, by the faithful ministry of some in his church (which is a thing which we always have constantly & firmly believed to be true, because he hath had, hath, and will ever unto the end have, a holy catholic Church, against which the gates of hell neither hath at any time, doth, nor ever shall, universally prevail) shall it hereupon follow, that therefore your Priests & Bishops are the men, whom Christ hath always and yet doth use to this end? or that amongst them, there hath always been the right succession in one Catholic faith? Their is none so simple, but he may easily see, that there is no necessary coherence betwixt this antecedent and consequent. For Christ might have, and indeed hath had (as I show after in my fourth chapter) by whom effectually from time to time, he hath both continued his Church and his truth therein, though your Bishops & Priests have a long time showed themselves his most deadly Antichristian enemies, in opposing themselves with main & might against both his Church & truth. The matter you have undertaken to show us is, by what right you exercise your ministry, or how you were called to that estate: for that, as a thing more easy, you rather have chosen to do, then to prove your office of Priesthood itself to be of God, though indeed this be the more material point, & which you should rather have taken upon you to prove: but that it seemeth, like a prudent man, you tendered more your own credit, which you foresaw, was like to take a foil, if you should have attempted to do this, which by no colour or show of sound reason you could, than the credit of your cause, which you could not but foresee, must needs lie in the dust, this being left unproved, whatsoever you should say concerning the other. But seeing whatsoever become of your cause, it hath pleased you, like a wise man, to slip from under this burden, which was to heavy for you, & now that only thing that we must expect at your hands at this time, is, to show that your manner of coming unto them yet is honest, good and lawful: I pray you, in good earnest, consider and weigh with me a little, what you have said to prove this. Al you say, is (as I noted before) that you are called by the ordinary way thereunto, that is, as you expound yourself, by the right succession of Bishops & pastors, & by the continuance of one Catholic faith, derived from the Apostles to our days, without interruption of it universally: nothing at all you have added, that so much as savoureth of any proof of any one point of this your assertion, & therefore seeing your word, is, nor aught to be of more credit with us, than the bare partial word of an adversary in his own case, your friends might have thought themselves even as much beholden to you, if you had as well given over the taking in hand, to prove their manner of coming to their offices to be of God, as you have, to prove the offices themselves to be of his ordinance. If you had meant or at least could in earnest have proved the thing you undertook, you should have first made it appear, what is requisite by God's ordinance in the lawful outward calling of the ministers of his Church, & then have showed us, that your Popes, Cardinals, Bishops & priests have always & do still so come by their offices: but this was to have dealt too plainly, and in following of this course, you knew well enough, you should be enforced too too openly to betray the badness of your cause. For who is there of any learning and reading, but he knoweth, that the ordinary way whereby these your officers have come now these many 100 years to their rooms, is as far differing from the ordinary way appointed by Christ for his ministers to come to their places by, as the east is from the west. You therefore, like a wily and subtle fox, thought it no good policy, this way to seek to justify your calling or manner of coming to your prelacies, & yet rather than you would seem to be able to say no more for your manner of coming thereunto, then for the offices themselves you were disposed, you thought it good, thus bravely and braggingly to set a face upon it in these words, as though you could say enough: and that makes your fault the greater. You have no sooner uttered this your bare and bold assertion, which were somewhat, if you could throughly prove it, but you are quite slipped & gone into the proof of another matter, which though you prove, yet your assertion is never the more thereby strengthened and confirmed. For though we grant you (which always we do most willingly) that the Church of Christ hath always had in her from her first nativity, and shall have unto the end, successively in all ages in one place or other, such as have showed the truth faithfully unto others, as have shined as lights in their days set upon a candlestick, and as have painfully laboured and shall still, to gather together the Saints, to bring them to unity and perfection in Christ: yet neither doth it follow, that these have been so visible, apparent & glorious in the eyes of all men, & that they have so orderly succeeded one another, and had their ordination one of another in one and selfsame place, and after one and selfsame manner, nor that hereupon it should follow, that this having been in any sort that then by and by it must be granted, that yours have entered the ordinary way, that they are right Bishops and Pastors, have had right succession always one to an other, and have also, which is the greatest thing of all, had without interruption always the sound catholic faith continued amongst them. For, in some sort, these might be in all ages and times, & that effectually to serve to these ends so far forth, as stood with God's providence, & was according to the variable disposition thereof, sufficient to continued his holy catholic Church, according to his good pleasure, & yet not in that visible, apparent & glorious manner, that you pretend: & some he might have to enter into their callings to do this the ordinary way, though your Bishops & Priests have not so entered, be not right Bishops and Priests, and be such as are destitute of all right ecclesiastical succession, both in respect of persons, places, times, & truth. And yet most evident it is to every reader of any judgement, that all your proofs in this Chapter, & in the rest that follow, prove only, that God always hath had, hath & will have a Church, and therein always some teachers of the truth, and some learners and embraces of it. And this the Lord hath had, hath and ever will have, though your ordinary way of coming to your places, though your Bishops and Pastors, your personal and local, visible and glorious succession, and your supposed Catholic truth had never been seen or heard of in the world. Yea far more apparently and gloriously should we have seen the truth hereof, if this ordinary way of yours, these Bishops and Priests of yours, this succession and counterfeyght truth of yours, had not in the just judgement of God, for the sins of the world been the stop & let thereof. And yet you either were so simple yourself, or else you thought you should only meet with so simple a Reader, as would account the proving of one of these, thus severed and disjoined the one from the other, the just and due confirmation of the other. But I cannot be persuaded, that such was your own simplicity, as once to imagine, that the fift of Matthew, Ephes. 4, Esaie. 62. or any other proof that you use to that end, did serve at all to prove your entrance to have been as you said: I am therefore flat of this mind, and so must every man of any wit and discretion be (unless you will give us leave to think, that you had neither of both in thus reasoning) that this was your Romish and Popish cunning herein, finding yourself unable to prove any of these four points, that your entrance is by the ordinary way, that your Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests, that you have had from the Apostles right succession, and that also now and always you have been in possession of the Catholic truth: you thought it good, confidently, as though their were no controversy to be made with you about any of these, to avouch, that you had all these to justify your manner of coming to your offices. And so persuading yourself that you should meet with such frank and liberal Readers, as would easily, upon this your bold begging, grant you all these four for an alms, taking them for given, as sure as though you had them already in your beggars budget, even for and at the very first ask, you go on as you do, supposing that your Reader is already won to this, to imagine that all and every place of scripture that speaks of right Bishops and pastors, and of their lawful calling & succeeding one another from age to age in the truth, must needs be understood of yours. But with this conceit & phantesy of yours, howsoever you may prevail with men of your own humour and complexion, that have their wits benumbed & blundered with the drunken & enchanted cup of the garish whoar of Babylon, whiles you take this course, you set yourself but forth upon a scaffold, to be laughed at and derided, as one that hath neither sound Religion, nor common reason left him, of those that are indeed wise, sober and godly.  
Seeing therefore you have said so much and proved so little, well enough might I even with the detection, in this sort, of your vanity, leave you as sufficiently answered, for any thing you have said concerning this point. But because I have not taken in ●and, only so to answer you, as might be sufficient to take away ●●e power and force from any thing you have set down in this ●our discourse, to win any more to be of your judgement then ●ee already, but also so, as, by the grace of God, may be likely to ●ake your own friends ashamed of your dealing in their cause, 〈◊〉 will both in this, & throughout your book, for the further benefit of the Reader, take the pains to follow you from step to step ●how crooked soever your paths be) & so disclose & lay open before ●im, not only the vanity of your proceeding, but also the untruth ●nd gross impiety of your words and sayings.  
Wherefore, whereas to justify your manner of coming by your offices, you first say you come thereunto by the ordinary way, the Reader is to consider, that through the ambiguttie of your speech, you seek wilfully to abuse him. For you could not be so simple, but you knew and remembered well enough, that as there is a lawful ordinary way ordained and allowed by God, and therefore accordingly practised in his Church, whereby his Church officers should enter into their callings (whereby if you could have proved yours to have come to theirs, you had indeed justified their entrance thereupon) so have there been in tract of time, through the boldness of men to alter God's ordinance, and therein to prefer the way devised by themselves, before that which the Lord himself had prescribed, many ways both invented and practised, which though they have by custom and long continuance of time grown to be too ordinary, yet for all that, they have been and yet are too bad: by any of which (though in respect of one or other of them you may truly say yours have entered by the ordinary way) yet you have said nothing to prove their manner of entrance to be holy, good, and of God. But to speak plainly, and yet no more than I can prove out of your own Chronicles, your very Bishops of Rome, of whose lawful and ordinary calling you use to brag most, and of whose lawful entrance and calling (if they be such heads of the Church as you pretend) the lawful calling and authority of all other inferior Church officers is derived and depends, for many hundredth years, a number of them have so got to their Prelacies, that unless you account those in your sense to have come to their places by the ordinary way, that in compassing of them have broken all good order both of God and man, I wonder with what face you durst thus indefinitely & generally say of all your Bishops and pastors, that they have been called to their estate by the ordinary way. For furious brawls, monstrous and long contentious, force of arms, and cruel bloodshed, have been the ordinary ways, whereby a great multitude of them have entered, as namely and for example, these: Symachus, Boniface the second, Pelagius the first, Boniface the third, Conon, Sergius the first, Zozimus, Paul the first, Constantine the second, Eugenius the first, Hadrian the second, Formosus, Leo, Benedict, Gelasius the second, Honorius the second, Innocent the second, Gregory the tenth, Nicholas the third, Clement the fifth, Vrban the sixth, and sundry others. Bribery also hath been the ordinary way, whereby many of them have climbed into that chair, as namely, john 13. Boniface the 7. Gregory the sixth, Silvester the third, and most of late days. Nicromancy, art magic, and plain bargaining with the devil for it, have been ordinary ways also, whereby a shameful sort of them have compasse● that place. For, from Sylvester the second, unto Gregory the seventh, including them, there being an eighteen or nineteen Popes, your own Cardinal Benno shows, that the greater number of them so came to their rooms, and since we read, that Alexander the sixth got it the same way. It appears also in the said Benno, that the greater number of the Popes from Sylvester the second, to Gregory the seventh, were poisoned, or at least by violent means dispatched by such, as for themselves & their friends, thought good so to make the way readier thereunto, for themselves or some others whom they fancied. And to the same end, other authors write, that very many of them beside, have in like manner from time to time since, been suddenly unpoped, that others the sooner might be popped into their rooms. Yea Genebrard a late writer, and a great friend to the Roman Religion and Bishops, in his fourth book and tenth age in his Cronology, by the plain evidence of the truth, is enforced to confess, that from the year 884. to the year 1048. that is, from john the eighth to Leo the 9.50. Popes all in a row successively entered not by the door, but by the postern gate, whom he calleth Apostatical monsters, and in whom he grants that lawful Apostolic succession was disordered. And he that reads Luitprand lib. 3. cap. 12. & 13. shall find testified by him, that the two famous harlots Theodora the mother, & Marozia the daughter, were in their times the makers and marrers, and in effect the only setters up and dispatchers again of Popes at their pleasures. Whereupon it came to ●asse (as it there appears) that Pope Christopher, having shooted out his predecessor Leo, by the aid of his concubines, he ●as quickly shouldered out again, by one Sergius, who got the ●lace from him, as partly by much brawling and fight, ●o especially by the help and support of his paramour Marozia.  
Again (as he shows) hence was it, that Pope Laudo john the ●leuenths father by adultery, was by the means of Theodora his sons paramour deposed, that so she might bring him nearer her, from Ravenna to Rome: whom again her daughter Marozia, having found the means to smother, she, without consent either of people, or clergy, set up in his room a bastard of hers, which she had by Pope Sergius. And though he were shortly after thrust out again, yet by the help of his old friend Marozia, the matter was so handled, that both Leo the sixth, and Stephen the seventh, his successors, by poison were quickly rid out of the way, and so he (called john the twelfth) recovered his place again. Likewise her son Albericus son john the thirteenth, as he came of a filthy generation, so being a most filthy man himself, he had his preferment to that place by the like means. And in like sort we read, that Vrban the second came to that room, by the means of his lover Mathilda. Also craft and subtlety in supplanting and cozening their predecessors, hath advanced many to the Papacy. For Vigilius got it by crafty accusing of Syluerius, so procuring his deposition, to make way for himself thereunto. By the same door of craft and cozenage entered Stephen the second, Martin the second, Boniface the eight, and many others. And when these have been the ordinary ways, whereby such a rabble of these your most holy fathers, and highest Prelates have come to their estates, is there any likelihood to the contrary, but that their inferiors of all sorts, in their times learned of them to enter in like manner? For what reason is there, that a man should not be resolved, that down from the head so corrupted, ran corruption over all the body, even down to the lowest Hedge-priest? And in very deed, ever since these have been the ordinary ways, whereby these your head Prelates have compassed their places, all stories, to the everlasting shane of your synagogue, do most usually & notoriously show, how that there was nothing more ordinary, then for the next great Prelates under them (as Cardinals, Bishops and archbishops) to come to those their dignities, by the like means or by worse, as namely for favour borne them for the sin not to be named, for that they were the Pope's bastards, or for some other such like 〈◊〉 honest cause. For Innocent the eighth Pope of that name, was first made Prelate of Savon, then of Melphit, & then Secretary to Pope Sixtus, and Cardinal of Cicilia for his rare beauty, & not for any other good quality in him, and julius the third of very late days promoted none sooner, then young wanton Ganymedes, especially one of that sort, a very lad called Innocentius, to be Cardinal, whom he had long filthily fancied, & then still did. And to be a Pope's Bastard either in the first or second degree, hath of long time been a rea● way to such preferments. And therefore we read, that john the eleventh Pope Laudoes Bastard, by the help of Theodora his paramour, not only (as I have said) in the end became Pope, but before easily got first to be made Bishop of Bononia, and then Archbishop of Ravenna. Caesareus a bastard of Alexander the sixth, for this was by him made Cardinal, & Paul the third stretched his favour so f●● in this regard, that he made one Alexander son to his bastard son Petrus Aloysius, and one Ascanius son to his bastard daughter Constantia, Cardinals. And the writers of his life do him wrong, unless he himself before he was Pope, obtained the Cardinal's hat, & to be Bishop of Hostia, by delivering his sister julia Farnesia to be concubine to Alexander the sixth. Sure I am, that our Chronicles are much troubled, and a very great part thereof consists, in displaying the brawls, contentions, and dangerous consequents, that have arisen (sometime to the shaking both of our King's estate and kingdoms also) about the election here of the Archbishops of Canterbury. Yea in them it appears, that few elections either of them, or of any other great bishops of this land in these latter days of the jollity and ruff of the Roman Prelates and their Romish & Antichristian Hierarchy and religion, have past here in England of late years, whiles your kingdom stood, but thereabout either there hath been notorious brawls and contentions amongst the electors or else some other famous disorder and corruption, and likewise we may be sure it fell out in other places and countries. And as for your ordinary Priests, for the most part, all the world is witness, so doltish and ignorant they have been, that there was no ordinary way for them to enter, but that Balaam was the Bishop, judas the patron, & they were affectioned as Simon Magus. In Boniface the ninthes time, he had an Antipope called Benedict, but howsoever otherwise ●hey raged and raved one against another, in this they both agreed, ●o make open sale and merchandise of all Church livings, the ●●le began the fifth of November in the fifth year of Bonifaces' reign ●●e that would give most sped best, yea his covetousness was so notorious herein, as that Theodoricus writing his life, confesseth ●ot only thus much, but further, that he had seen one benefice sold ●o many men in one week, yea the former sale revoked, though vn●er seal, and the benefice sold to another, that offered more, the first ●eing well chidden for going about to cozen the holy father for see●ing to get the benefice at an underualew: by means whereof & as ●ee writeth for that this Pope was before a sturdy younker but of ●0. years of age when he was chosen Pope, and one so ignorant, ●hat he could neither write, sing, nor understand so much latin, as to ●nderstand the ordinary pleading of advocates: dolts always at his ●ands sped best. And yet this fellow was Pope above 200. years ●go: whereby though it appear, that to enter by this door of Simony, be a very ancient ordinary way, for Popish Priests and inferior Prelates, to enter into their dignities by, yet this is not the ancientest precedent they have: for Vrbanus the sixth Pope before this Gregory the ninth, having caused a Cardinal of his in one day, to ●epose, rack, torment and spoil all the Prelates of Cicilia, because they would not aid him, according to his mind, against his Amipope Clement. 7. was by this way easily entreated, within a very short time, to let into their rooms 32. new Bishops, Archbishops & Priests how ignorant he cared not, so that otherwise they would be of his faction and satisfy his humour, as the foresaid author testifieth. And Platina in the life of Silvester the third, 300. years before either of these, to note both the antiquity and dissent of this ordinary way, by occasion of Benedict the ninth his selling of his Papacy to Gregory the sixth for 1500l. (as some writ) & many like tricks that he belike had observed amongst them, through the notorious evidence of the thing, is enforced to write, that then even the Papacy itself was come to that point, that he that would go beyond others not in holiness of life and learning, but in large giving and ambition, he only, the good being oppressed and rejected, should attain to that degree of dignity: which fashion I would to God sometimes (saith he) our times had not retained. And when he hath said thus, he addeth, but this is but little, we shall, unless god prevent it, see hereafter sometimes far worse things. This man lived and flourished in the time of Paulus 2. who was Pope above 400. years after Sylvester the third, & surely herein he was, all the world knoweth, both a true reporter and prophet, and since it hath not bee● better, but rather worse, even from the head to the foot in that kingdom of the Pope. His testimony cannot but press them of th● Religion and Synogog very much, because it is well known, th● he, both for his office and opinion, was very partial of that side. Wherefore even these things considered, every man seethe, that thou●● it were granted you, that your Bishops & Priests, have entered al●● time some ordinary & common way, that yet thereby would arise a ver● slender justification, of their manner of coming to their offices. Y●● in this case, somewhat further to pose you and to press you, the r●●der is further to be advertised, that beside the most ancient and 〈◊〉 pure ordinary way of entering of Church officers, used and contin●●● in the primative Church, until Constantine's time at the least, the●● have since, according to the variety of times, and diversity of the●● states of the Church, been sundry other things appointed & prescribed, by the decrees of sinods & counsels, ordinarily to be observed 〈◊〉 the election & ordination of such officers, which have most ordinarily been broken and neglected, in the entrance upon their offices, of 〈◊〉 of yours, now these many years. For proof whereof, I refer the re●der no further, but to the consideration, first of your manner of commi●● to your places, for these last three or four hundredth years; & to th●● canons, that your own friend Gratian, concerning this matter, h●● huddled together, dist. 61. 62. & 63. for going no further, thereby sh●●● he find, in that the consent of the Emperor, the assent of the people, the peaceable and orderly election of the clergy, hath bee● a long time wanting in many of yours, that indeed you cannot truly say, that such of your Church officers have entered by any ancient ordinary way, either prescribed by the word, or the ancient canons of the Church, of a long time. Now the election of your Popes is only by the Cardinals, which to be the ordinary way of their entrance, was first devised and enacted in Nicolas the second time (as it is noted dist. 23.) which was a 1000 years and more after Christ; and after, under Alexander the third, it was further confirmed in a Lateran council, held in his time about the year 117●. Nicolas the first began, & Hadrian the third concluded the quite removing and shutting out of the Emperor, from their election, which was about the year of the Lord 889. john 19 first shut o●● ●he people about the year 1003. And so then about 70. years after, his decree of Nicolas the second was made. If therefore, including our Bishops of Rome, you mean by the ordinary way of their entrance, this, decreed by Pope Nicolas the second, than they that ●ere before entered not by that ordinary way. And if you look v●on his decree well, & the decrees of others since made to back that, ●ou shall find not half the Popes that have been since, to have enured orderly. Yea in reading of the stories of the Church, the de●rees of the counsels, and your own Canon law, though I find ●t the least, that there hath been since Constantine, a six or seven several ordinary ways, decreed and used for their entrance, yet I ●an hardly find, that three Bishops of Rome succeeding one another immediately, did orderly in every respect enter the ordinary ●●aie, then in force and use. For whereas I find, that the Emperors and the Princes of Italy, or his deputy in his absence, by custom, their own right, interest and authority therein, and after by ●he decrees of Hadrian the first, about the year 773. and of Leo & Clement in three several counsels in their times consented unto, ●ore a principal stroke therein a great while: yet whiles that was necessary in the ordinary way of entrance thereunto, I find, that many entered not only without their consent, but quite contrary to ●heir minds, as one may read in the lives of Pelagius the 2. Stephen the 4. Hadrian the 2. Martin the 2. Hadrian the 3. and divers o●hers. And likewise, whereas sometimes, as in the time of Constantine the 4. by the Emperors own consent, other sometime without his consent, as by the decree of Pope Stephen the 4. the Emperor was not to meddle therein, but only the clergy & people of Rome, yet even then the stories show, that sundry had their entrance, not only not without, but altogether by the means of the Emperors, yea after the decree of Hadrian the 3. many years. Likewise, though for the avoiding of brawls & contentions, in the election of the Roman Prelates, Leo the 8. gave absolute authority to the Emperor, to choose the Pope, about the year 994. & in Clement the 2. time, upon that consideration, the Romans themselves also gave over their right therein unto him, insomuch that besides others, Leo the ninth and Victor the second, had the place by his absolute authority: yet, even whiles this stood as the ordinary way agreed upon, many entered otherwise. To be brief, I dare confidently set it down, for I am able to prove it by their own story writers, how often soever they have varied and altered their ordinary way of entering unto that place, sometimes by admitting the emperors consent thereunto, sometimes by shutting it out quite, sometime by giving him his due right, and sometime more and sometime less, or howsoever: in like sort they have varied both as touching the Clergy, and the people that should have to deal therein, wherein they have had as many diversities as about the former, or finally whatsoever concerning other circumstances of their election, they have thought good to add or detract from the ordinary way before in force, they have neither long continued any one ordinary way, neither during the time of the continuance thereof, have they followed inviolably that way. And as it hath been with that chief Sea of theirs, so hath it been with other inferior places, so that no constancy hath been in any of their ordinary ways of entrance, nor yet any due care either carefully to observe the canons of the scripture, the canons of the Church, or their own decrees made for that purpose. In their late council of Trent, by sundry canons and Chapters therein set down, it appears, that they there assembled, considering what horrible abuses there had been in the election and ordination of unfit Bishops and Priests amongst them, thought it most needful (to prevent the like for the time to come) to devise & to enact sundry holesone canons, to breed a learned preaching ministry, and to procure an election and ordination thence forth for them, as free from corruption, as in their wisdoms they could conceive: but yet who knows not, but that those canons have since been and yet are, as carelessly looked unto, and herein kept amongst them, as though they had never been made. Wherefore, to conclude this point, let Albine and never so many more of them, brag that they enter by the ordinary way, unless thereby he mean a way that ordinarily is nought and corrupt, he speaketh more than ever he can prove, and so therein hath said nothing to prove the coming of their Bishops and Priests unto their places to be lawful and good.  
And yet if we will believe him, their Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests, but if it be true, as it must needs be, that they can not be so, who neither have a lawful way of entrance to their offices, nor yet their offices are themselves of God's ordinance, than it is apparent even by that which I have said already, that neither their Bishops nor Priests are right Bishops nor Priests. Their Bishops from the highest to the lowest, by their usage and practice challenge and take unto themselves, an office of another essence and nature, than the office that Christ and his Apostles have left and prescribed to true Bishops, and so likewise is it with their Priests. For one universal and head Bishop over all others (such as they take their Pope to be) Christ never ordained, for he made all his Apostles by giving them all equal, one and selfsame commission, his officers equally to bear for their times the general and universal care of oversight, ruling, ordering and directing his Church; and to bring it to full perfection, ascending into heaven, when he was disposed this way in bestowing Church officers upon his Church, by the ministry of his word and sacraments, to consummate it unto the end, besides these, as inferior ministers, he gave only, as you may read Ephesians the fourth, evangelists, Prophets, Pastors & teachers, where neither your Popes, Cardinals, nor mass-priests, are once remembered. The matter wherein the full execution of the off ce of all the ministries consists, that Christ hath left unto his Church, is, duly & sound to feed God's people committed unto them, with heavenly food, by painful and diligent preaching unto them the word of God, and ministering unto them the sacraments, and rightly and oderly to govern the Churches of Christ, by the administration of ecclesiastical order and discipline, which are things, that the greatest and fattest in your Romish synagogue, think themselves little or no whit at all bound unto. These things are too base matters for your Popes to be occupied about, their office consists, and therefore they accordingly must busy themselves in other matters: as namely, in making and marring, in setting up & putting down secular Princes, as they call them, in studying by all means fair and foul, to maintain and to enlarge their authority and patrimony, & in devising by a thousand ways, though never so covetously, tyrannously & insatiably, to gather together infinite sums of money, to buy or to win by force of arms, great principalities for their bastards, nephews and nieces, to spend in the persecuting & subduing better Christians than themselves, to build sumptuous palaces, banqueting houses, & temples to shroud idolatry & idols in, costly beautified, the better to entice men for their further advantage, to commit spiritual whoardome with them. In and about these things, your Popes now, these many 100 years have spent their wits, & all these parts of the world, and all Chroniclers of any credit, can and will testify. If they have any leisure from these affairs, than they must show themselves not to have been idle and fruitless in devising some new ceremony, in adding some patch or other to their Church service, in proclaiming the cross against the Turk, for the recovery of the holy land, in publishing some jubilee and indulgences, in setting up some new order of Religious men, for the better support of their kingdom, or at least in plotting and contriving some conspiracy or treacherous devise, to supplant and murder some Christian Prince, that hath drawn or is like to draw his people from their Antichristian Religion. And your other Bishop's occupation lieth most in blessing with their fingers, in consecrating of their unholy holy Chrism, in christening of bells and Churches, in ordering unorderly and contrary to their own canons, of an idolatrous and new found sort of Priests, & in running up & down fond and superstitiously, to minister the sacrament, as they count it, of confirmation: scarce the tithe of them ever had either skill or will to preach. And as for your Cardinals, as they are of an order but of a late devise, so by their behaviour we can not judge their office to lie in any thing else, but to serve the Pope's turn, for the better setting forth of his magnificence at home, and to be his agents in foreign kingdoms, the easilier to contrive his purposes their. They are and have been a long time (their first nativity considered) notable fellows to haunt and maintain the stews at Rome, and to devour and to consume, in riot, vanity and impiety, all the Bishoprics and benefices that they could heap together, without any care for the good of the people: and the use of them hath been, to brawl and to breed schisms in choosing of Popes, and to stur all coals, and to move every stone, as fast as they could one after another, to thrust into that place. Now to come to your ordinary Priests, though the matter of teaching and ministering of sacraments, especially was posted over unto them, and unto Friars, yet either were they not able to do it, which was the condition of most of them; or else if they did it, in stead of feeding the people with the milk of God's word, which only Saint Peter warrants to be without deceit 1. Pet. 2.2. they fed them, with vain dreams, fancies, tales and traditions of men. For these only are the grounds of that which is properly now the Romish Religion. And in very deed, when they were ordered, their especial business appointed for them was, to sacrifice for the quick and the dead, which is a thing not only beside the office of any true minister of Christ, but also directly contrary, both to their office, and Christ's also. For they by warrant expressly from the canonical scriptures are to teach their people, that Christ himself in his own person once for all, when he died for the redemption of man, offered the sacrifice that for both quick and dead solely and wholly, fully and effectually must serve the turn for ever, and that in offering this propitiatory sacrifice, he is an everlasting Priest, and may have no successor, either to offer another sacrifice, as though this were not sufficient; or to offer this again, as though he had not himself offered it well enough. Besides, herein commission is given them, directly to pervert Christ's institution of the sacrament of his body and blood. For whereas by the right use thereof, thereby should be offered unto man the body broken and blood shed of Christ, for him to be fed on, and received by him to salvation: by their commission and intention herein, they offer these things to God the father. Further, if we consider their reading unto the people, all in an unknown tongue, their praying to Saints and Angels, their praying for the dead, their blasphemous imagination, that they by breathing a set number of words upon a wafer cake, make it very Christ, and other their superstitious and magical incatations and conjurations of water, oil, salt, palms and other creatures, these being so directly contrary to the word of God as they be: whatsoever here Albine hath said of them, we may most justly and truly advoutch them to be right Priests of Antichrist, and consequently no right Priests of Christ. But seeing he will needs so indefinitely and generally pronounce his sentence, That their Bishops and Priests be right Bishops and Priests, to leave these general objections and reasons against them, and to come to some particular examples: first I would feign know of him, whereas there have been a twenty three schisms at least in the Papal see, sometime two, sometime three, sometime four, all at once contending that they were right Popes, which of these was always he, that for the time was to be accounted the right Bishop? And if never but one of them, yea sometimes none of them were right, and therefore they were driven to depose and suppress them, and to set up a new, they all during their times having had many followers, and many were made Bishops and Priests by them, and so success●uelie from these, infinite others have had their consecration and orders, how can we count these right Bishops and Priests, that were made by such, as had no right to make any? or how shall we sever them, that if they fetch their pedigrees, have had their original from such, from those that are descended from them that were made by the right Popes? This nut will trouble the whole Church of Rome to crack. But to deal plainly and particularly, what can he or any of them, unless they be disposed to be convinced of wrangling by a cloud of witnesses, say for joan the eighth, that in the end proved herself, openly in a solemn procession, to be a harlot by her fruitfulness; for Christopher, Sergius, Laudo, john the 11.12. & 13. all Popes in a row, and yet especially advanced unto, and kept in that dignity, by their concubines and harlots; for Silvester the second, and a number of his successors, who were promoted by Nicromancy and poisoning their predecessors; or for Hildebrand after called Gregory 7. who the same evening that his predecessor was dead, thrust into the place, not one Cardinal subscribing to his election, rather even by force then by any means else? Boniface the eightth got the place by cozening Celestine his predecessor, by the sound of a voice through a trunk through the wall of his chamber: Boniface the ninth was chosen Pope by the Cardinals at Rome, and yet, as I said before, when they chose him he was but twenty years old, he could neither write, nor sing, nor understand his latin tongue: Balthasar de Cossa Cardinal, through fear at Bononia drove the Cardinals to refer the nomination of the Pope, whom there they were about to choose, to himself, who by and by chose and set up himself. Sixtus the fourth, builded a famous stews at Rome of both kinds (as Agryppa writeth of him) and witness Wesselus' Groningensis, he granted an indulgence to the family of S. Lucia, that for the three hot months in the year, they might use the sin not to be named. The like Indulgence granted Pope Alexander the sixth, to a Spaniard Petrus Mendoza, Cardinal of Valentia, so to abuse his base son Marques Sanatensis. Monstrous are the incests, adulteries & Sodomitries, that stories report of Paul the 3. And julius the 3. his Sodomitry, especially with one Innocentius, whiles he was Cardinal at Bononia, whom therefore he made, being still but a very boy, Cardinal, when he was Pope, is in the stories reported very ill of. And the rather, that which in this respect is written of him should seem to be true, because in his time, there was one Hieron. Mutius set up, publicly in books to defend certain filthy and loathsome amorous verses, written by one Camillus Oliws, companion to the Cardinal of Mantua, to one Hannibal Coliws: & that in his time johannes Casa Archbishop of Beneventum, Deane of the chamber Apostolic, and the Pope's Legate in the dominions of Venice, wrote in the commendation of that filthy fact of Petrus Aloysius Paulus 3. his son, with Cosmus Cherius Bishop of Fane, and that with the applause and liking of that time. Now what? Will Albine say, for all these things, that these were right Popes, Bishops and Cardinals? right and seemly they may be, to serve the whoar of Babylon, otherwise, such can never be right Bishops and Priests to serve the Lord jesus.  
But if neither that which he hath said, concerning their coming to their places, by the ordinary way, nor this vaunt of his, that their Bishops and Priests be right Bishops and Priests, can do him any good: yet it may be, he hopeth some credit will grow unto them, in that he hath said, they have their places vy right succession. Indeed succession and the derivation of it without interruption, down from the Apostles, especially in their line of Popes, is a thing that such as he brag much of, saying, that that they have, & we have not, & that therefore their Church & the ministers thereof, must needs be good and lawful, and ours the plain contrary. Howbeit, if we examine this point thoroughly, we shall find, that they have as weak help hence, as from the other, or from any thing else. For whither they understand by right succession, succession without interruption in place, person or office, severally or jointly together, neither can their Bishops and Priests, as they are now, truly say they have it, nor yet if they could, they being gone as they be, from the soul and life of right Apostolic succession, namely the Catholic and Apostolic truth, are they ever the better. And of the contrary, though it were never so true, that we could not deduce unto our present Bishops and Pastors down from the Apostles or their times, without interruption, the line of succession, in place, person and office; yet we being able to show, as we are, that we hold one and selfsame doctrine with them, that would justify our Church, and ministers sufficiently, notwithstanding the want of the former. This is quickly and easily said (you will say) but these things cannot so readily be proved. I grant, to prove them will cost the more pains, otherwise the proof is ready and pregnant enough, and that I doubt not, but (if, with any indifferency, that which I shall write to that end be marked) shall ere it be long appear. I say therefore, first, that the Roman Bishops and Priests, as they are now and have been a long time, whatsoever they brag, no not their very Popes (unto whose right succession Stapleton and others trust most) have any right succession, either to any Apostle or Apostolic man, in place, person or office. For first, they can never sound prove (the proofs out of the scripture are so strong to the contrary, & their proofs out of the stories so disagreeing and variable in all circumstances) that Peter the Apostle, whose successors their Pope's claim to be, and from whom all other Bishops and Priests amongst them, have their vocations and authority derived, was either ever at Rome, or being there, that, having laid aside his Apostleship, which was the greater and higher office, he sat there as Bishop. Secondly, unto this day they cannot agree, of the order of succeeding one another betwixt Linus, Cletus, Clement & Anaclet. Vrspergensis in the life of Claudius, hath notably & at large set out, both the difference of opinions in this matter, and also the uncertainty of the truth. Thirdly, none of any learning and reading, can be so ignorant in the stories of the Bishops of Rome, but he knows, that they have not succeeded one another, from the Apostles to this day without interruption always, neither in place, person nor office. For besides that sundry times, many Popes for some short time have sat from Rome, it is notoriously known, that Clement the 5. about the year 1305. translated the Popes see from Rome into France to Auinion, where it continued above 70. years. And as for immediate & orderly succession of persons amongst them, how is it possible truly & certainly to define & set down that, seeing that see hath not only stood vacant, days, weeks, months, and years, sometimes 2. sometimes more, but also there hath been at once so often, not only 2. but often 3. & sometime more, every one striving with his favourers to be accounted to be the right Pope. And lastly, by that which I have said before of the nature of their offices of Pope's Cardinals, Bishops & Priests, their practice proving daily my words therein to be most true, how dare any man, that hath any fear of God, once say or think, that they in their offices have any affinity with the Apostles, or any Apostolic man? Light & darkness are not more differing the one from the other, than the offices of Apostles, evangelists, Prophets, Pastors & Doctors in the ancient primitive & Apostolic Church, differeth from these offices of theirs. Secondly, whereas I said, though yet they could, which now you see they cannot, truly say, that they succeed the Apostles & Apostolic men in place, person and office, yet they were never the nearer: my reasons thereof are these. First, I find, that wicked people & wicked Priests in the scriptures, often have had this kind of succession, to plead for themselves, against the true Prophets and against Christ himself, as you may see jerem. 7. vers. 4. & cap. 8. vers. 8. john. 8. v. 44. Vriah the Priest in King Ahaz time, had this succession from Aaron, and yet he to please that Idolatrous king, set up, contrary to the commandment of the Lord, an altar according to the pattern that the King had sent him, of one that he had seen at Damascus, 2. King. 16.10.11. The high Priests, that withstood always Christ & his doctrine, and in the end crucified him, had this kind of succession, & yet none of these or their doings were any thing the more justifiable for this. Again though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorun confesses, that the Greeks have been schismatic and heretics this 500 years, yet he & all the sort of them of any reading know, that not they only, but also the patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria, and the Bishops of sundry other famous Churches in the world, all which likewise, they hold, be schismatic and heretics, can & do make as great show of this kind of succession for the countenancing of their ministry and Churches, as they themselves, for they know, that the Patriarch of Constantinople doth deduce his local and personal succession from Andrew the Apostle; & that the Patriarch of Antioch now sitting at Damascus, doth likewise his from Peter, which he may do more certainly, than the Popes when they sat at Auinion could, for it is evident Gal. 2. ver. 11. even by the scripture itself, that Peter was at Antioch, & so is it not that he was at Rome. In like manner, they know that the Patriarch of Alexandria, now holding his seat at Alcairum, derives his, from the Evangelist Saint Mark. And ignorant they are not, that the Arrians, prevailing as they did, and in the end having got the most seats of Bishops to be furnished with men of their damnable opinion, that they for that time were able to hold this plea aswell as themselves, and yet I am sure they will grant, that none of these were therefore, or are therefore to be allowed & justified. They will say, I am sure (for so I find them plainly to reply in their writings, yea even john de Albine himself afterward Cap. 7.) that though these all can and do plead succession in place, person and office, that yet it cannot justify them, because not only they have held, some of them, detestable heresies, but presently also do still. Indeed I must needs confess, that I read, that Macedonius, Nestorius, and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right succession, by their heresies at Constantinople; that Paulus Samosatenus did the like at Antioch; and that Dioscorus and Petrus Moggus did likewise at Alexanderia. And I cannot deny, but that I find all these and the Churches under them still charged, to hold errors and heresies, but this then withal I infer, the more true that it is, and hath been thus with them, the more evident it is, of what small account this personal and local succession is of itself, either to give credit to Bishops and Pastors, or their religion, that can plead that. And this further I add, if these be sufficient causes to make their alleged succession to be of no value, than there is as great cause, why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists, should be rejected, as a thing not worth the naming. For not only in inferior places of Bishops and Priests (which is a thing that they will not strive with us about) it is so manifest, that there have been many heretics amongst them; but also even in their line of Popes (who, as some of them hold, cannot err) there have been sundry heretics also. For Tertullian contra Praxeam, writeth of a Bishop of Rome, that did allow of the Prophecies of Montanus, &, as he saith, therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia, and Phrigia thereabout. And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes, and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius, and Hieron de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testify, that Pope Liberius was drawn in the end to subscribe to Arianisme. And Honorius died an heretic, as it is to be seen in the first general council, Act. 12. & 13. etc. Liberatus also Breviarii Cap. 22. witnesseth, that Vigilius in secret favoured heretics. Anastasius the second, fell into a condemned heresy, as we read Dist. 19 Cap. Anastasius: and therefore would have restored Accatius a condemned heretic. And yet I say nothing of Pope john 23. condemned for an heretic by the council of Constance & the school of Paris, for denying in effect the immortality of the soul. Yea the evidence of the truth in this point is so open and strong, that it hath caused their own friends to condemn them of gross flattery, that hold, that Popes have not and cannot fall into heresy; as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. & 4. Lyra upon the 16 of Matth. and the third synodal Epistle of the council of Basill. And that the Romish Church doth now hold as gross and palpable errors and heresies, as they charge these withal, if I prove not ere I have done with Albine, I will never crave credit either to our ministers, or to our Churches and cause. Wherefore to leave the proof of this to his place or places (to go on with that which I have undertook to prove against them, concerning this their brag of right succession) whereas thirdly I said, that though we were not able to deduce or derive down from the Apostles without interruption, any local and personal succession unto our Ministers that now be, yet as long as ours teach, and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught, we are well enough, whatsoever they say to the contrary: that resteth only now in this case to be proved. But before I come to the proof of this, least in this my assertion I be mistaken, I would first, that it were marked, that I speak but by way of supposition, that is, if we were not able to set down a continued line, down from them to us without any interruption, for in the 4. Chapter following, I hope, I shall set down such a descent of our Church from them to us, as whereby it may sufficiently appear, that there was never age nor time since, but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers. Secondly, I would have it also understood, that my meaning is, though it were so, that we could not make recital or demonstration of any such descent or succession: in that process of time, distance of place, and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept us from knowing their names, persons and places; that yet for the continuance of the truth and the Church of Christ amongst men, I constantly hold and believe, that there hath been a continual and uninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GOD'S truth, whereof his Church consists, even from the first beginning thereof, and shall be to the end. Only this is it that thereby I am contented be insinuated, that the Churches of Christ, if they can prove, that they are taught by such ministers as God doth raise up unto them, according unto his good pleasure, whither ordinarily or extraordinarily, and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught (witness the canonical scriptures) that then, they are to be accounted apostolic and holy Churches of God, and that in such a case, especially in and after great persecutions, ruins & long oppressions of their members & children, they need not to be daunted nor discouraged, neither in respect of their ministers and teachers, nor in respect of their doctrine, though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons, either by whom their ministers, down from the Apostles, have had their vocation derived unto them, or else by whom ever since, that truth hath been continued. For howsoever in visible Churches of GOD, whiles they stand in flourishing or unoppressed state and condition, by the fury of persecutors, there is a set order and form visibly to be observed in the vocation of Church ministers, in respect of which estates and times it is easy for them that live therein, or within the knowledge and remembrance thereof, to make demonstration of the line of succeson: yet when in the just judgement of God, the Churches shall be oppressed, as now a long a time they have been, under the tyranny of Antichrist, then and after such a time, such a thing grows to many not only hard, but also impossible. And in such times we find, that the Lord of his wisdom and power to continue yet his Church, raiseth up men, though not by the ordinary way used in the former times, as after the dispersion of the Church at Jerusalem, by means of the persecution there, when Stephen was stoned, we read that the Disciples being dispersed, and namely with them Philip the Deacon, that he preached, the Apostles not aware thereof, for any thing that appears: so under Constantine, Antonius the eremite taught at Alexandria, and under Valens, Aphraates, Flavianus, and julianus at Antioch, being then but Monks, who in those days were not so much as counted amongst Clerks, as we read in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These things thus premised, thereby not only my meaning shall rightly be conceived, but also that which I have said, in some sort is already confirmed. But my reason indeed is, that true and sound apostolic doctrine, in the good providence of God towards his Church, opened and continued in the same, though by men not coming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way always, but sometimes somewhat extraordinarily, as he seethe need thereof, is and may be such effectual seed to beget children unto God, and so wholesome food to feed them, yea even until they grow to a full age & perfection in Christ jesus, that though their teachers cannot show for the defence of their calling, who always successively in person and place have gone before them, yet even this truth of their doctrine doth prove them, and their people to be apostolic Churches, whereas though they could do the other without this, it were nothing. And because my adversary seemeth in this point, & otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus, Tertullian and Augustine, I will stand to their judgement in this, whither to succeed the Apostles in doctrine, be not sufficient without the other local and personal demonstrable succession, and not this without that. Irenaeus in his fourth book and forty three Chapter, teacheth us only to obey those Elders in the Church, which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishoprics, have received Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris, that is, the certain gift of truth according to the pleasure of the father; for, as for all other, whatsoever they pretend (for he excepteth nothing) he there immediately showeth, that absistunt a principali successione, that is, they are gone from the principal succession, and therefore must be suspected. And Tertullian in the very same place, de praescriptionibus haereticorum, quoted by Albine after, in his 9 Chapter, immediately after the words there cited by him, wherein he calleth for personal succession, hath added these, Confingant tale aliquid haeretici etc. but let heretics devise some such thing, for after blasphemy, what is not lawful for them (saith he) but though they do feign some such thing, yet it shall nothing prevail them. For their doctrine compared with the apostolic doctrine, by the diversity & contrariety thereof, will pronounce, that it hath neither Apostle nor apostolic man to be the author thereof. For (saith he) as the Apostles taught not amongst themselves contrary things, so neither did apostolic men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught. After this sort therefore let them be provoked by those Churches, which though they cannot produce either Apostle or apostolic man to be the founder thereof, in that they were long after planted, as daily there be, tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes, non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae, yet they agreeing with them in one faith, are no less to be reputed Apostolic Churches, than they that were planted by the Apostles. What can be plainer than this, to show, that though our Churches could not satisfy his request, in pleading the former succession, that yet if they can show this, that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine, that they therefore are far rather Apostolic, than they that can produce the former without this. And though Augustine in his 165. epistle, and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle, which they call their foundation, remembered by Albine cap. 6. do there seem to make great reckoning of personal succession: yet when he had showed of what force that and some other reasons were with him, he prefers truth indeed warranted by the scriptures, before them all. Wherefore, what I have said, concerning the vanity of their brag of personal and local succession, either to justify theirs, or to disgrace our Church or ministry, is sufficiently proved.  
But all this labour (will Albine say) I might have spared, for he spoke not simply of succession, but expressly of right succession of Bishops & pastors; and to show what he meant thereby, he expressly added the continuance of one Catholic faith derived from the Apostles to our days, without the interruption of it universally at any time. Moreover, I confess that sundry times after (so forcible was the truth in this point with him) that in words he confesseth, that personal and local succession, without continuance in this truth, is not the thing that he urgeth, and yet for all this, this that I have said of this point, is not needless. For besides that few of his opinion, will be brought to confess thus much, this both in others, and in himself in sundry Chapters following, may be observed, that when this confession is made by any of them, it is wrong from them much against their wills, for their show of proofs run wholly for the magnifying of personal succession to be the mark, whereby true Churches, and the ministers thereof may undoubtedly be discerned. Again, if in this he spoke as he thinks, why doth he make so much ado, about the personal and visible succession of Bishops and pastors, and never joins this issue with us, to try out sound and thoroughly, whither they or we have this Catholic and Apostolic truth. For herein only lieth all the controversy betwixt them and us, and this determined, the question betwixt us were quite ended: let them once therefore but prove indeed, that they are in possession of this sound truth, and that always down from the Apostles they have continued therein, if we join not straight with them, and repent us heartily of our departure from them, accursed be we. Yea, if we cannot prove by comparing their doctrine, with that which we are most sure the Apostles taught, to be both diverse from that, and contrary unto it (understanding by their doctrine, as we do, that, which is proper to them, and wherein we are against them) let us for ever lose our credit and cause. Now for the deciding and determining of this great & main controversy, we appeal to the canonical scriptures, which we know are most fit and sufficient judges herein: whereunto, unless they will deserve the name of lucifugae (that is, of shunners of the light) which for the like cause Tertullian gave the heretics of his time, de resurrect. carnis, they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone. Indeed in Tertullian and Iraeneus time, the heretics (as it appears in their works) for the trial of their opinions, fled from this touchstone, and when they were urged herewith, they behaved themselves the likest these our adversaries that ever I saw. For Iraeneus in his third book and second Chapter testifieth thus of them: cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum, quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate, & quia variè sunt dictae, & quia non possit ex his inveniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem: that is, when they are reproved by the scriptures, than they are turned straight into an accusation of them, as though they were not right, nor were of authority, both because they are so set down, as that variably or diversly they may be taken, and because by them the truth cannot be found out by those, that are ignorant of tradition. This notwithstanding, it appeareth both there and elsewhere, that he calleth them to this trial. And so doth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis, Cap. 3. saying, Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt, ut de scriptures solis suas quaestiones fistant & stare non possunt, that is, let those things be taken from heretics which they hold with the heathen, that only by the scriptures they may determine their questions, and they cannot stand. And nothing was more usual and familiar with Augustine against the heretics of his time, then to call them, for the trial of the question, both whither he or they were of the true Church, & also whither of them had the truth, to this way of trial by the scriptures. And therefore de unitate ecclesiae, Nolo humanis documentis, sed divinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare, I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men, but by the divine oracles, saith he Cap, 3. & again, there also he further addeth, pressing the heretics with whom he had there to do: sunt libri dominici, quorum authoritati utrique consentimus, ibi quaeramus ecclesiam, ibi discutiamus causam nostram, that is, there are certain books of the Lord, unto the authority whereof we both consent, there let us seek the Church, there let us discuss our cause. To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that book, and elsewhere very often. Unless therefore they will once be contented to come to this trial of the controversies betwixt them & us, we must needs tell them, that they are not desirous in earnest ever to have it appear, which of us have the better cause, but as men who know in their own conscience, that their cause is bad, they labour to maintain the credit thereof, as long as they can, by cunning shifts & delays. But yet let them assure themselves, as long as they shun this trial, how cunningly & colourably soever, though simple fools already besotted with superstition, & bewitched with popish enchantments, upon their bare word & stought brags, that it is nothing but the ancient catholic faith that they teach, may sometimes believe them: that yet withal those that have any wisdom at all, by this means they lose quite both the credit of themselves & their cause. For faith being, as it is, not a wavering & uncertain conceit & opinion of the thing believed, but a most certain sure & infallible persuasion of the truth thereof, how can any be assured, that the doctrine that he believes, is such as he may sound & firmly rest upon, for undoubted truth, without evident ground thereof, out of the written word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures? For thence only Peter dare warrant the sincere milk, which cannot deceive the children of god, to be fetched, 1. Pet. 2, 2. & therefore, that he would have them to desire, as new borne babes do milk, that they may grow up thereby. And as for the writings & traditions of men beside, hath not & doth not experience daily teach, that they may not nor cannot challenge the pre-eminence & prerogative, always to be free from error? And every one that is a Christian hath learned, that this prerogative all the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof, therein not to have erred at al. Who therefore can be so simple (unless the Lord in his justice hath blinded him, because he would not see the truth shining about him) that he should receive that for the sound catholic faith, that he hears not first from point to point, proved unto him so to be, out of this undoubted certain word of God, the canonical scriptures, what show or colour of proof soever otherwise be made thereof? And this john de Albine could not but conceive, & yet never once going about in this his discourse thus to countenance his cause & religion, but as one loath to be brought to this trial, he laboureth most earnestly to discourage all men from appealing unto it, & yet almost in every leaf braggeth and boasteth, that both his Church, his doctrine and all, are sound & catholic. Wherein howsoever he pleased himself in that his vain, any indifferent man may see, he hath rather bewrayed the weakness of his own cause, them any way (whatsoever he have said otherwise) impaired the credit of ours. But how vainly he hath sweat, even to the tiring of himself, & his reader about this point, in many chapters: That by the scriptures controversies are not in the church to be tried & determined: when I come unto that place I shall god willing show more fully.  
In the mean time (john de Albine, to turn my speech to you) I having thus examined your answer to our demand, how you come to your prelacies and offices, and having found the weakness and untruethes thereof such, as that your calling or coming thereunto can claim no more credit thereby, than the calling & coming to their offices amongst the Arrians & Greeks (whom you count heretics and schismatic) can do, because they can & could say as much, and that as truly for theirs, as you have here said for yours: let us now proceed, to the examination of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you, & urged as you thought strongly to your purpose. By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world etc. by christ spoken properly to his Apostles, you would seem to prove, that therefore right succession of Bishops & pastors in the apostolic truth, in all ages in divers parts of the world hath been ever clear & shining like a light set on a table. & by that Eph. 4. & Esa. 62. (with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely) you would infer, that not only always, until Christ's body come to full perfection, there should be doctors & pastors in the Church to teach the truth (which is the most that by those places can be proved) but also that they and their congregations have ever been known & visible, thereby (doubtless) meaning so visible (as the rest of your side do, when to this end they allege these or the like places) as that from time to time in all ages, men may be able to name them and their places. Whereunto I answer, that you stretch these places and the words therein further than their native sense will bear. For the first of these, is properly to be understood of Christ's Apostles only, who in respect of their ministry & other graces of the spirit that should be powered & bestowed upon them, to beautify & strengthen their extraordinary ministry withal, are there by Christ comp●●●●● the light of the world, to a lighted candle set upon a candlestick not put under a bushel, lightning all in the house, and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hill, which could not be bid: all which afterward they in the execution of their Apostleship, and holy conversation, proved to be ●●●tles truly and justly given them. This was no prophesy (as yo● would make it) that their should be until the second coming 〈◊〉 Christ, a visible and always demonstrable succession of such ●●●●sters in the Church without interruption, as these metaphor●●●●scribe. And yet I deny not, but that always, in one place or ot● 〈◊〉 the Church hath had from the beginning thereof, and shall have 〈◊〉 the end of the world, such and so many ministers, whereby the L● 〈◊〉 hath always and will continue the life thereof: but that this pl●●● of Matthew proveth so much (which is yet far less than you 〈◊〉 enforce upon it) I deny. Notwithstanding I grant, that all 〈◊〉 faithful pastors and teachers, according to the nature of their ●●ling, and measure of their gifts, so far forth as they therein have ●●●thing common with the Apostles, and are found like unto them, 〈◊〉 also in some sort have these things applied unto them, & vnderst●●● of them: but then withal it must be noted, and always remembered that as there was and is diversity of gifts and offices in sundry respects, betwixt the Apostles and common pastors and teachers, 〈◊〉 it must follow, that there is proportionable difference, betwixt the apparent light and visibleness of the one and the other. The Apostles were by their office appointed to preach to all nations, Math. 28. 〈◊〉 therefore worthily called in that respect, the light of the world: and by their extraordinary gifts they were set up as burning lamps, and mighty cities, to be seen & discerned a far off: whereas Bishops, Pastors, & Doctors have charges limited unto them but of final compass; and gifts but such, as if they give true light, and be seen of those that be about them, and near unto them, it is well Howsoever, certain it is (as I said before) that Christ doth not there prophecy or foreshow, how visible & lightsome his Pastors & teachers should be from time to time to the world's end: but he teacheth his Disciples and Apostles, what by his grace they should be, and so others succeeding them in the office of teaching, what they ought according to their place, to strive to be. And I would have this marked also, that even they, to whom Christ spoke properly, were but told, that there light should lighten those of the house, and that a city built on a hill, though it be not hid to those that are ●eare unto it, yet to those that dwell in another country far of, it may be hid; and that therefore though this place, were as properly to be understood of all true Pastors, as of the Apostles: that yet ●t inferreth not, that their persons and light should be seen and discerned but of them, that be nigh them, or joined with them in the ●ame house, or communion of religion. And as for that in the 4 to the Eph. though it prove, that there shall be teachers in the Church to gather together the Saints, and to edify the body of Christ, until it be brought to perfection: yet it proveth not therefore your visibility of them; neither doth that in the 62 of Esay. For it only showeth, that God would bless his Church with watchful and discreet pastors, which accordingly after he performed. But there is nothing said, to prove that they and their succession in the truth, should be so visible & apparent, as you dream of. But to awake you out of this dream, you must hear and understand, that though it be as certain, that neither the truth, nor teachers thereof, hath at any time, or shall hereafter utterly fail, or cease to be in the Church, as it is, that the Church if self continueth ever, & never quite ceaseth: yet thereupon it followeth not, that therefore both the truth and teachers thereof have so continued a personal succession one unto another, or one immediately after another, and are withal so visible and apparent, that their names and places may strait not only then, but always after of every one (as you upon these places would infer) be pointed and painted out. And for the confirmation & proof hereof, let us briefly take a view of the state of the Church from time to time, as it is set down unto us in the holy Scriptures. And in this point, let us begin with the Church, when in respect of all the former times it was best settled, & began to have the most visible appearance, namely when under the conduct, & by the service of josua God had placed it in Canaan. After this, though God therein had established a Priesthood, & tied it Leuit. 10. by his ordinance & promise to the tribe of Levi, & though the Church then had most notable promises of God's presence, & favour towards it, Psal. 68.2. Chro. 33.2. Chr. 7. Esa. 60.62.63. yet for all this, for the sins & iniquities of the people, it was driven often into those straits, that succession of priests & pastors was interrupted, & of the teachers & of the professors of the truth there could hardly be made demonstration. For in the time of the judges, that followed josua (as it appeareth in the book of them) Cap. 10.13. etc. it had many such eclipses, that we read there, of their general Idolatry, & other sins, & therefore of their slavery under heathen princes, in God's justice laid upon them divers times, for many years together: & in the mean time we find little mention, either of priest or people, that feared God aright. And in Elies' time (1. Sa. 2.) the priesthood & all grew so corrupt, that therefore by Samuel Elie is threatened, that the priesthood (notwithstanding Gods promise Leu. 10.) should be translated from his house: & after we read (Cap. 4.) that the very Ark of God was lost, & taken of the Philistines. And it cannot be denied, but the God had his church in Israel, in king Achab's time. For Obadiah had then hid 100 prophets in two caves, 1. King. 18. & God himself told Eliah, that he had 7000 there, that had not bowed their knees unto Baal, Cap. 19 & yet Eliah (though there & then a prophet) was so far from being able to name them, & to point out, who they were, & what they were, the he thought himself in that kingdom to be left alone. And in the kingdom of judah, where (in comparison of the kingdom of the ten tribes) the Church usually had a more visible estate, yet in the latter end of salomon's reign, Rehobohans, & Ahiiahs', the estate thereof was so grown out of order, that the prophet Azariah said unto king Asa, their next successor there (having relation to the state of the Church in the kingdom, as sundry good interpreters take his words) now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, & without priest to teach, & without law. 2. Chr. 15. Be like then their succession, & their nanes were not so visible, as you seem to imagine, always they must be in the Church. And though by Asa & his son jehosaphat, the church was well reform again, yet in king Ahaz time (as appeareth 2. Chr. 28.2. King. 16.) gross Idolatry overspread the kingdom so, that the temple was polluted & profaned, & Vriah the priest joined with the king in the erection of a new altar, & in committing abomination before the Lord, though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests from Aaron. Again, though Ezechiah, succeeding Ahaz, for his time did notably rid the Church of the abominations, wherewith his father had defiled it, yet when he was dead, his son Manasses, & his son Amon, brought it to as ill an estate, as ever it was: in so much, that from the beginning of Manasses reign, unto the 18 of josiahs', the book of the law of the Lord was lost, which was well nigh 80 years: for them it is noted that Hilki●h the priest found it, 2. King. 22. In Manasses his time it is evident, Idolatry openly prevailed, & the whole Synagogue, save a few prophets & their followers erred. If we proceed, during the 70 years' captivity in Babylon, what visible & apparent show of any succession of Bishops & pastors can we find, the joined together in the exercise of God's religion? Was not their temple then destroyed, & consequently did not the public exercise of their religion (which for the most part was tied thereunto) cease? as it was prophesied by Hosea, Ca 3. & therefore lamented by jeremy, Ca 3. Lan. When Christ our saviour came into the world, surely than God had his Church. For it is a most certain article of our faith, that since it begun, it hath never ceased, nor never shall, & yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there then in possession of souno religion? Had not they (as evidently appeareth by the stories written by the evangelists) that were in the visible personal succession, corrupted the doctrine of the Messiah, both concerning his person, and office so, that they were the deadliest enemies, that he had?  
But you will say perhaps, that though these things were thus in the Church, in the time of the old Testament, yet it may not be so in the Church now, in the time of the new. And why so? Howsoever otherwise there be some difference betwixt the Church then and now, in respect of the more clear revelation now, then then of the doctrine of the Messiah (whereof that Heb. 8.6. is by sun understood) yet in this respect you shall never be able, by the word written, or any true story, to prove any necessary difference; unless it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculiar people, & his service in great part to their temple, and that he had ordained amongst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so, that the Church then had more right to plead visible succession, than now. In the mean time, thus much is gained by these stories of the Church, in the time of the old testament, that this outward clearness & visible succession, you talk of, is not an inseparable note of the true Church, for thereby we have seen it separated oftentimes from it. And unless men were peevishly disposed to maintain a manifest untruth, convicted so to be both by Scripture and experience, you would see & grant, that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ. For is it not plainly prophesied 2. Thess. 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the coming of Antichrist, and that very great and effectual? And lest you should babishly, & foolishly (as many of you do) understand this of an Antichrist, that towards the end of the world should come and reign, & seduce men, 3 years & an half: mark, that here Paul telleth us in his time, that this mystery of iniquity did already work, which it did, in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seek justification partly by faith, & partly by the works of the law, as it appeareth by the Epistle to the Galathians: & weigh that he attributeth unto him such things, as could not be brought to pass in that space: & lastly consider, that he teacheth, that though he should be detected and fall into a consumption by the Spirit of God's mouth, yet he should not be fully abolished before Christ's second coming. All which make it most evident, that Paul here prophesieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity, which should trouble the Church, then yours of 3 years & an half continuance. But least yet, this notwithstanding, you should imagine, that the fulfilling of this prophecy, & your fancy of perpetual clearness & universality of the church, may stand always together, S. john in his Revelation describing (as you all must confess) the state of the Church, seethe her in a vision by the great 7 headed Dragon, driven into the wilderness, and there glad to be fed for a season, Chap. 12. And he seethe the babylonish harlot (the true pattern of your Romish prelacy; by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist, & his kingdom) committing fornication, not with a few, but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth; not ruling or sitting over a few, but (as the Angel there expoundeth the waters, whereon she was seen to sit) people, multitudes, nations, & tongues. Apoc. 17 All which laid together do plainly show, that after Christ, there should grow such a defection from the faith, in the world by the means of Antichrist, that during the flourishing of his kingdom, the true Church and her pastors should be driven into the wilderness, and so for that time should have in comparison of antichrist's followers, small visibility, and show in the eyes of the world. Which we say, and constantly are able to defend, hath been verified in the late flourishing of your Romish Prelates. Besides, view the stories of the church, & the Chronicles of times, and you shall be driven to confess, that though the Church hath had always her two witnesses (Re. 11) to testify to the truth, & that they never could be extinguished quite by Tyrants, yet she hath often been driven from carrying any great show of visibility in the world. For certain marble pillars at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew, do witness, that Diocletian, iovius, and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined, when they caused them to be erected, that they then had quite laid the honour of Christ for ever in the dust, and as it should seem by the circumscriptions, that they thereupon caused to be engraved, they set them up even of purpose to brag, that they had like great conquerors quite extinguished (as they term it) the superstition of Christ. Which they would never have done, if either they or their favourites had then seen a visible succession of Bishops and pastors amongst them, and had known their names, and where to have found them. If we go on to the time that the Arrians most flourished, we shall read, that the Emperor Constantius said to Liberius, Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum, qui solus facis cum homine scelerato, meaning Athanasius, Ecclesiast. Hist. Theodoreti. lib. 2. cap: 16. whereby it appeareth, that then the Catholics that withstood the Arrians, in the sight of this Emperor, had but a poor visibility to brag of. Yea Piggius, your own man, confesseth Hierar. lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part, but almost the whole world: in so much that almost all the Bishops not only of the east, but also of the West, by one means or other were blinded, and no small time continued this heresy: and this is certain, that they bragged then as much of visible succession, of the name of the Church, and universality, as ever since you have done: calling the true Christians Homousians (as you do now Lutherans, & Zwinglians) as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them. You may see therefore, that these weapons or stays, are common to you with blasphemous and condemned heretics. These places of Scripture, and experiments therefore caused August. upon the 10. Psalm. & 78. Epist. to compare the Church unto the Moon, which besides the monthly wanings, suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies. And surely unless we be too too wilful, all these things together may make us out of doubt, that the Church of God both before Christ & since, hath often failed to carry any such outward visible show in theeys of the world, that it is so easy a matter, to make at all time's demonstration of her Pastors & teachers, who they were, and where they taught, as you our adversaries would bear the world in hand it is. And therefore for answer to this Chapter, to any reasonable man, this is sufficient.    


The II. Chapter.  
SAint 
a Thus you are fallen from proving that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as have rightly succeeded one another both in person, office & truth of doctrine, which is the thing you should have proved, to show that there hath always been and must be a succession of Pastors to continue & settle men in the truth, which is another point. For though this were granted you, yet you have not thereby won the other.  Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter unto the Ephesians, where as he doth declare unto us, the fruit that doth proceed of this succession of Pastors, and of the perseverance of the reasonable sheep in one kind of spiritual doctrine, called the unity of faith. For he sayeth, that God established this order to that end, that we should not be like light children, 
a The more is your sin, that have suffered yourselves to be carried away from the truth, by the enticements of Antichrist.  carried away with every blast of false doctrine, through the subtility of men, & their crafty words, full of deceit. In these words you do see, how the Apostle doth declare unto us the counsel & the intention of the holy Ghost: 
b If you had been constant in this faith, we and you had been all of one mind, and unless we can justify our faith to be even so grounded as you say, we will forsake it, and join with you, but if we can, than you are to forsake yours & to join with us, if you will answer the intention of the holy Ghost.  I mean, that we should be constant in our faith, the which is grounded upon the word of God, & interpreted & declared unto us by the Doctors & Pastors, that successively have continued in one kind of faith & Catholic religion, from the first time that it was preached, with out turning with every wind, but rather that we ought to stand firm & stable. Here is to be noted, that when the Apostle doth tell, how he hath left us pastors & doctors, to warn us of the subtlety of false teachers, he doth use a certain greek word very apt for this purpose, the which hath in English the signification, of the 
c I would not you had forgot this note, for it doth lively paint out your doctors, which by this their skill in cogging and cozening, do make the scriptures to have a flexible sense always suitable to the practice of your Romish Church. how variable so ever that be.  playing or cogging at dise. And even as he that hath no great skill, if he play with such a one, he will soon lose his money, because the other can cast what he will: Even so, if a simple man, being unlearned, do chance to talk with such a one as can cog, or (to speak plainly) falsely interpret the Scriptures, he may soon be deceived: as we see it daily hap to many, that play away & put in hazard the rest of all their spiritual inheritance, I mean, the faith, which hath been left to them by their fathers, from age to age, since Christ's time. Thus have the Arrians, the Nestorians, & divers other heretics deceived many a man, as I will show more at large hereafter.   

The II. Chapter.  
IN this second chapter, you observe further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleged, that God established a ministry in his Church, that we should not be like children carried away with every blast of vain doctrine, thorough the subtlety of men, & their crafty words full of deceit: whereupon you infer, that thereby God hath taught us, to be constant in our faith, grounded upon the word of God, interpreted & declared unto us by the doctors & pastors, that successively have continued from the beginning in the same. Who of us ever either wrote, spoke, or thought otherwise? But herein is your subtlety, that you take this still for granted, which indeed is the main question betwixt us, and for determination whereof on your side, you have as yet said nothing, that the faith and religion, which your Synagogue is in possession of is that faith, which you speak of, which we constantly deny, affirming the faith & religion, which we profess, to be that indeed, wherein the Apostle would have us constant and settled, and which hath always continued in the Church, and hath been taught and justified out of the word written, by the true pastors thereof in one place or other, from time to time. And therefore herein you have said nothing, but the (we understanding it of our faith and religion) maketh as much for us, as for you. We grant you also, that false teachers, and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures, worthily there, may have their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cozening, but then still we add, that your teachers a long time have been the men, that have used, and yet do use that cogging trick. Which (if it would please you once by the sound rules of interpreting the scriptures, to let your interpretations and ours be examined) we doubt not, but to make most manifest unto all men quickly.    


The III. Chapter.  
THe place that I have quoted of the Apostle doth show, how dangerous a thing it is, to fall into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures, & likewise how certain a thing it is, 
a Such interpretation of the doctor, we will most willingly follow, and if you should, you would quickly forsake your popery and join with us.  to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctors, standing to that, that ever the Catholic Church hath taught, & not to turn at every blast. Upon this matter one 
* Lib. con. haer.  Vincentius Lyrinensis, who flourished above a thousand years agone, he saith thus: If any man perchance demand, saying: Since that the rules of the Scripture are certain & 
b Yea and more than sufficient saith he, Mark he grants the rules of the scripture to be sufficient: how is then that true, which your Andradius saith, the greatest part is left to tradition not written?  sufficient of themselves: And what need have we then of the authority of the Church? He answereth: For that (saith he) that the secrets & mysteries of the holy Scriptures are such, that every man doth not understand them, & interpret them after one sort, but that of one place this man & that man shall seem to maintain their opinions, being clean contrary one to another, so that, look how many men, so many interpretations: For, one way it is interpreted by Nestorius, another way by Arrius, another way by Sabellius, & so forth, according to divers heresies that have risen from time to time. And therefore it is necessary for the knowledge of the truth, among so many errors, to draw the 
c And for these reasons we allow of Vincentius rule, understanding, as he doth, that by the right line and rule of interpreting is meant that sense which hath the consent of the Prophets, Apostles and Catholic Church, for no other sense we give of the Scriptures.  right line of the Prophetical & Apostolical interpretation, according to the rule & true sense of the Catholic Church. This is the learned opinion of this ancient father Vincentius Lyrinensis.   

The III. Chapter.  
IN the 3 Chapter, you say as little to the purpose, as in the second. For understanding by the Church, the true catholic Church indeed, and not your late Synagogue of Rome (falsely by you so named, because neither it, nor the faith thereof is universal, neither in respect of time nor person) whatsoever you have written therein, we confess to be most true, and sure we are, it maketh more for us, then for you. For we never denied the ministry of the true Church to be needful (according to Vincentius rule) to find out the true sense of the scriptures: and certain we are, that we are far better able, to justify our interpretations thereby, than you are yours: and he living a 1000 years ago (as you writ) we boldly affirm, that you shall never be able to prove, that the Catholic Church and her doctors and pastors before or in his time, taught the errors and heresies now taught by yours, for the which we account yours Antichristian. And yet, as in the former Chapter most beggarly you begged this principle, that your doctrine is the ancient Catholic faith: so here in this you beg this also, that your Church is the true and undoubted Catholic Church. But you must understand, howsoever your own friends will give you at your first ask both these, that yet we will grant you neither of them both. And therefore writing (as you would seem) purposely against us, you should not thus miserably always have begged them at our hands, but by sound and just proof (at least) have endeavoured to prove, that you had just right thereunto, and then with some more honesty and credit might you have gone on, in this supposal, that they are yours. This also you must understand, that when it is in question, which is the truth of Religion, yea even in the fundamental points (as indeed it is betwixt you and us) it is always also in question, which is the Church of Christ. For as both parts imagine, they have the truth, so will they persuade themselves, that they are the true Church. Your friends also and all others must be advertised, that it is no new thing for damnable heretics, to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church & of the doctors thereof, least through too much simplicity, they think straight, that you have all these things on your side, because you have them so much and so often in your mouths. For (as Cyprian writeth Epist. ad jubaianum de baptizandis haereticis) the Novations (after the fashion of apes) challenged unto themselves the name of the Church, and all other they called heretics. And we read, that in the time of Arius, Macedonius, and Donatus, these heretics accounted themselves the only Christians, and that the true Christians indeed were counted by them Homousians, Macarians, Caesarians, and Caecilianists. So doth Tertullian de Prescrip: adversus haereticos, testify, that the heretics did in his time. So did the Donatists (saith August: Contra Epist: Parm: lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epist. 161.) and he writeth Contra Epist: Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongst the Manichees, there was great brags of the truth. Bernard also in his 66. sermon upon the Canticles, speaking against certain filthy heretics that condemned marriage, and superstitiously abstained from meats, yet saith that they gloried, that they alone were the body of Christ, bragging also, that they were the successors of the Apostles and Apostolic, & the Church of Christ. And indeed we find nothing more usual with the ancient heretics, then to boast, that they had the Church and Catholic truth on their sides. And very usual we find it also with them, to stand much upon fathers, in the defence of themselves and their heresies. For it appeareth in the Council of Chalcedon the 1. Action, that Eutiches bragged, that he had read Cyprian, and Athanasius: yea that then and there he confidently said for his defence, that he had so learned of his ancient predecessors, and that he had been baptised in that faith, had lived, and hoped to die in it. And we read in the 4. Action of the same council, that Carosus an eutychian heretic, said stoutly, I believe thus, according to the exposition of the 318. fathers, and so was I baptized. Dioscorus also, in the 1. Act: of that Council, cried and said, I have the testimonies of the holy fathers, Athanasius, Gregory, and Cyrill on my side, I go not from them in any thing, I am cast out with the fathers, I defend the father's doctrines: I have their testimonies, even set down in their books for me. And (as we read in August: contra Cresconium the Donatist, 2. book cap. 23. and in his 4. book cap. 17.) he cited for himself Cyprian: and it seemeth that Maximinus the heretic (against whom August. wrote) used to allege for his defence, the council of Ariminum, and therefore Augustine saith unto him. Neither will I object the council of Nice against thee, neither oughtest thou to object that of Ariminum against me: 3. book. 14. chap. What a vain thing is it (these things considered) for you and your fellows then, to carry away the simple under the bare titles of Catholic truth, Catholic Church, Catholic faith, Catholic Bishops, succeeding one another? When as indeed and truth, it is as impossible for you to prove that you have any just right to any of these, as it was for those heretics. But howsoever you make some believe, you have all these, yet I say unto you, with Saint August: De unitate Ecclesiae, against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That even Catholic Bishops are not to be consented unto, if that any where they be deceived, in thinking any thing contrary to the Canonical Scriptures. And therefore when all cometh to all, and when otherwise you have run yourselves out of breath, in conclusion (will you, will you) by these Canonical Scriptures must it be determined, whither you have any right to any of these or no. For if you appeal from them (as indeed you do) to the Church and fathers, they will send you back again for the trial, whither that which they speak, be true or no, only to the Scriptures: as it may appear unto you, not only by this one place, which I have cited out of Augustine already, but also by a number such like places, both to be found in him else where, and also in others. For you may read in the first book and seventh Chapter of Theodoret, that when Constantine saw great controversies in the Church in the Nicene council, and perceived that every several company bragged of the truth, and so also of the Church, and fathers to be on their side, to end all those controversies, he said, Ex divinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur; that is, out of the oracles, that are come by divine inspiration (thereby meaning the Canonical Scriptures) let us seek the determination of those things that are propounded: and so they did. And as Constantine the Emperor was of this mind, so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same. For to Serap: he saith, Solum exsacris literis condiscas (meaning, that the holy Ghost is God) sufficiunt enim documenta, quae in illis reperias: Thou mayest learn it only out of the holy Scriptures, for the documents or lessons, which thou mayest find in them, are sufficient. And Origen upon the 16. to the Romans, in his tenth book (agreeing herein with these) saith, that only by the holy Scriptures the difference of truth from error, in the examination thereof, is to be discerned. And yet more plainly, the same Origen in his first Homily upon jeremy writeth, of necessity we must call for the testimony of the Scriptures: for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses, have no credit. Well therefore said Augustine, de naturâ & gratiâ cap. 61. Only to the holy Scriptures do I own my consent without refusal: And therefore frankly he telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle: that he had learned to yield that honour only to the Canonical Scriptures, to think that the authors thereof therein never erred. Where he plainly showeth us, by his example, how we should read his writings, or the writings of any other father, namely, believing that which they wrote no further, than we see it by scripture confirmed, or by probable argument not dissenting from the truth. And the like he teacheth yet more plainly in his 111. & 112. Epistles, to Fortunatus and Paulinus, & in the poem of the third book of the Trinity. Wherefore with the same Augustine, I confidently say and write, whither of Christ, or of his Church, or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life (I will not say we, that are not to be compared with him that said though we, but as he addeth) though an Angel from Heaven shall preach any thing, besides that ye have received (mark he saith not contrary, but besides) in the legal and evangelical scriptures, let him be accursed; in his third book against Petilian. cap. 6. Yea your own Vincentius in the very place quoted by you, denieth not, but taketh it for granted, that the scriptures of themselves alone, are sufficient for all things, yea and more than sufficient. Whereupon it is evident that Vincentius, by the rule, line and true sense of the Catholic Church, that there he speaketh of, understandeth only such a sense or line, as agreeth best with the scriptures themselves, and the right rules of the interpreting of them, whereof more afterwards. In the mean time, howsoever Vincentius his meaning was, Augustine an ancienter father, & more famous somewhat then he, speaking of the rule of faith, that always in interpreting of the scriptures, men must have an eye unto, and be ruled by, saith, that it is even that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture: de doctrinâ Christia: lib 3. cap. 2. & de trini: lib. 1. cap. 2. &. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct: Christ: lib. 2. cap. 6. & distrinc: 37. c. Relatum. we may read, noted out of Clement, that the church is not to receive any fence for the true sense of the scriptures, which cannot be proved so to be out of the scriptures themselves. And therefore all interpretation of scripture, new or ancient, delivered by the fathers in former time or received of their children of this later age, must and aught according to this rule and line, be judged catholic or not.    


The four Chapter.  

Cant. 1.  WHose discourse doth make me remember the complaint, that the soul doth make unto her Spouse jesus Christ, being both represented by Solomon, and his legitimate spouse. I pray thee (saith she) O my dear friend, tell me in what place thou dost lie and rest at no●● days, for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flocks of thy fellows? The which is as much to say, as if she meant thus: I see many shepherds in these mountains, which have great abundance of sheep, I see those of the Roman Church, I see Donatists, I see novatians, or, to speak of our time, I see one flock follow Luther, another follow 
a The Caluenists zwinglians and Sacramentaries: are commonly amongst you taken for one, yet here that the variety of opinions may seem the greater, you reckon them up as three distinct sorts.  Zuinglius, another follow Caluin, another the Anabaptists, another the Sacramentaries, & so forth divers others, of whom when I demand particularly, Whose is this flock? they do all answer me, It is of Christ, & every 〈◊〉 saith this is the catholic Church, every one doth say, that he is his fellow, that is to say, as touching the guiding of his flock. Now it is not possible, that they do all teach the truth, considering how they vary among themselves: therefore I do desire thee to tell me, where thou dost rest thyself at noon days? That is as much to say, teach me, which is the true Catholic Church, which doth celebrate the true mystery of the Cross, which is the place, where thou wast nailed at noon days, being nailed both hands and feet? Hear now the answer of jesus Christ: If thou dost not know the place where I rest, O most beautiful amongst all women, follow thou the path that thy flock hath made before thee, setting thy tabernacle or thy lodge, hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepherds. If we well note, and understand this answer, it will learn us that, that shall suffice to keep us from running ever astray. The sense is this: O thou Christian, which art troubled in thy conscience, not knowing, because of so many heresies, which way thou shalt go, or how thou shalt discern the true religion from other false doctrine, take my counsel, the which is to follow step by step the flock that went before thee. If that a thousand or two thousand sheep run over a plain, those that come afterward, do not they know well the path that is made before them? Do not they discern the way that the first went? Yes surely, although there be no Shepherd to guide them. And if thou dost answer, that this doth not suffice, for I do see diverse paths, I see the path of the calvinists, 
Cant. 1.  the path of the Lutherans, and the path of those of the Roman Church: but yet do not I know which flock I should choose. To this I answer thus: set thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the shepherds, and of thy Pastors, I mean, that 
a Then we may not lean to yours for this can it never do.  I would have thee to lean to that flock, that can lead thee from age to age, and from year to year, unto the cross of jesus Christ, on the which he was nailed at noon days: and there it is where thou oughtest to quiet thyself and thy conscience. Then to begin: If thou dost ask the calvinists, Where is the true faith (the which, as they say, doth consist in the true preaching of the word of the Lord, and in the administration of the Sacraments, according to the institution of jesus Christ) they will answer: It is at Geneva; the Lutherans will answer, at Wittemberge; and the anabaptists will answer at Monasterium; the Ubiquitaries, they will answer, at ●ubing; and the Trinitaries, at Petricone; and so consequently of the rest. And then pursue, and ask further, where it was twenty years agone? They will say, in the said cities: but if thou come to demand of them, where it was an hundred or two hundred years agone, if they are ashamed any thing at all to lie, they will not answer at all, for there is none of them, that can deny, but that Luther, who began to preach his new Gospel the year 
b This is a monstrous and impudent untruth, for constantly and generally we say and prove by the Scripture, that our religion hath plentiful warrant, both in the old & new Testament.  1517, was the first beginner of all these troubles, & the father of all those that teach this reformed Religion. Then is it far from that place, where thy friend was nailed at midday, or where he was crucified above 1500. years agone, before the new Church was dreamt of. And therefore thou mayest easily perceive, that this flock cannot lead thee to the place that thou dost desire: and consequently, that is not the flock that we should follow. Then let us come unto the Roman Church, and demand, where was this flock an hundred years agone? They will answer thee, in France, Spain, England, Germany; and so over all Christendom. And of thou ask, where it was 500 years agone, 
c They will say so: therefore it was so?  they will say, In the said places. And a thousand years agone likewise: and likewise, a thousand and five hundred years agone. This flock than will not leave thee by the way, as the others do, but it will lead thee unto the very time of the death and passion of 
d This is also most untrue, for the popish doctrine, from point to point, we are able to show, when it began: and how it hath grown by degrees to that which it is, not in a thousand years after Christ.  Christ, by continuance of o●● doctrine, and by succession of pastors, which Solomon doth call the Tabernacle of the sheep herds: And therefore this is the place where thou must seek thy Tabernacle, and quiet thy conscience to the end that thou be not a lost sheep, and that thou be not ready to turn at every blast of new doctrine, 
e None such coggers as Papists, in giving the sense of the Scriptures, who make not them the rule of their practice, but their practice, how mutable so ever, the rule to give the sense thereof by.  that our new coggers of the Scriptures do set forth, to deceive the simple sheep.   

The four Chapter.  
TO this fourth chapter, I answer, that with Solomon to find out the true Church of God, we as well as you, exhort Christ's sheep, to follow the tract of the flock of Christ, and to feed by the tents or Tabernacles of his shepherds: that so they may be led on and up, to Christ himself. But then forasmuch as we have learned before, by that which hath been noted in the former Chapter, concerning the fashion of heretics, especially seeing the same confirmed in you, and other heretics and apostates in these our days, that every flock is not Christ's flock, that will pretend so to be: nor they always his true shepherds, that are so accounted, we wish every one that wilfully is not disposed to suffer himself to be seduced, by those that falsely thus pretend, to learn to be able (as Saint john hath taught all true Christians in the first Epistle and fourth verse) to try the spirits, whether they be of God or no, which they shall and may do in trying both the flocks, and their shepherds, by the infallible word of Christ contained in the Canonical Scriptures. For Christ's sheep will hear and obey his voice, joh. 10. which undoubtedly and sufficiently is sounded in the written word. For the Scriptures are able to make a man wise unto salvation, through the faith which is in Christ jesus. For the whole Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teach, to improve, to correct, and to instruct in righteousness, that the man of God may be absolute, being made perfect unto all good works. 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true shepherds will feed his sheep, with the sincere milk of this word, because that is it which they must desire, as new borne babes do milk, that they may grow up thereby, if so be they have tasted how bountiful the Lord is. 1. Pet. 2. And because that is it, according whereunto he that speaketh must speak, because it is written, if any man speak, let him talk as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule, if the flocks and shepherds whom we follow, be tried, they shall be found the sheep whose tract is to be followed, and the shepherds by whose tents is safe feeding. And contrarily by this rule, your flocks and shepherds (come to the trial of it when you will) shall be found flocks of goats and not of sheep, and foxes and wolves, seeking the destruction of the sheep, rather than true shepherds. But you would make the Reader believe, that Solomon in this place by you cited, out of the first of the Canticles, doth teach the true Church, safely always, to pitch her tents, and to feed by the visible and apparent succession of pastors which from age to age, can lead her without leaving her by the way even to Christ's time, Which you say yours can do, and ours cannot, boldly avouching, that unless we be not ashamed to lie, we cannot show where our Church or Religion, was an hundredth years ago, and that we cannot deny, but Luther began to preach our new Gospel, in the year 1517. And thus again, partly by this note of visible succession of pastors, and partly by upbraiding us with certain differences of opinions amongst us, about the manner of Christ's presence, and diverse and sundry fantastical heresies, that of late days have sprung up, and been revived, you labour to justify your Synagogue of Rome, and to condemn our Church of Christ: which things you harp upon, very much and often afterward in this your treatise. Wherefore to answer you to all these things, here once for all: first I tell you, you offer violence to salomon's words, in making them to contain a prophesy of any such perpetual and visible succession of flocks and pastors, in the possession of one truth, as you infer thereupon, and make it the special mark and note to discern Christ's true Church, from all that falsely be so called. For than it should be contrary to that view of the state of Christ's true Church, which I have set down unto you, and proved by infallible arguments in the first Chapter: which may not be, se●ing the scripture always agreeth with itself. And yet the Church may have good use of salomon's advise given her here, in her greatest ruins and interruptions, of her ordinary and visible form and beauty, in looking to the visible flocks and shepherds, that were before that God so chastised her: as in Achaz time, in looking to and following those, that were in David's and salomon's time● in Manasses and Ammon's time, in looking to and following those in Ezechiaths & Iehosaphats times: & in the time of the captivity, in looking to & following those, that were in josiahs' time. And yet do not so take me, as though I thought, that either Christ's true Church, or the true shepherds thereof, did at any time vtter●● cease or fail: for I am persuaded they never did, nor shall. But this only is the thing that I now say, that though this place of the Canticles doth show, that in no time there is any true flock● of Christ, but there hath gone before a flock, and shepherds, which that may safely follow even to the finding of Christ: yet it proveth not, that there hath always immediately gone before it, from time to time, some visible & so apparent flocks and shepherds, one immediately succeeding another, as that the names of the sheep and shepherds, are always famously known, and therefore easily to be reckoned up of every one: which are the things, which you seem to infer hereof, and therefore require of us to be done, or else you would feign make the Reader believe, that we neither are the Church, have the truth, nor true & right ministers thereof. Wherein, many ways, you offer us great wrong, for after you yourself (distrusting belike) that in any seat or line of Bishops, without interruption, this can be performed (speaking of your line of Popes, whereof all the sort of you brag in this case most, cap. 8. to uphold and draw along your right succession) you tell us flatly, you mean not, when you speak thereof, only of them, but of all Bishops elsewhere, that they may continue it, in the interruptions of that live somewhere else: and yet at our hands, you require under the penalty aforesaid, that we should from age to age, and from person to person, orderly succeeding one another, deduce ours. For when we say it was continued always by some, in some other places, when we can no longer find it in your Romish see, whereinto by little, and little, you have craftily ●rept: and wherein for many hundred years before, men of our Church, and Religion sat and taught, you reject that our answer as a shift. Another wrong that you offer us herein, is this, that your Antichristian Synagogue having according to the prophesy revel. 12. persecuted our flock into the wilderness, with the shepherd's thereof, you require that we should, even in respect of such decayed & distressed times of the church, give you as evident demonstration of our flocks and shepherds, as may be given thereof in the flourishing and peaceable state of the same. For there is no reason in requiring that, in the decay and ruins of the Church, which accompanieth always the Church in her prosperous and standing estate. Besides, herein you offer us the greater wrong, in that notwithstanding it be granted of us, that both perpetual continuance of the Catholic faith, and also some kind of succession therefore of teachers, be necessary always for the continuation of the Church, yet you cannot but know (especially seeing that prophesy before named, & that also 2. Thes. 2. must be fulfilled of the church of Christ, in respect of some time of her sojourning here on earth) that thereupon it followeth not, that therefore their succession is visible and demonstrable always, in your sense, or else we must yield, that there were none such. For who is so simple, but he is resolved, that all men now alive come by lineal succession from some of Adam's children, and yet few or none can be found that can rightly, no not the skilfullest harrold of them all, deduce their pedagree from thence. Must it therefore follow that there hath not always been, for all that, a certain lineal descent? if you should thus infer, every one might laugh at your folly. For long process of time, distance of place, betwixt some of our progenitors and us, lack of Chronicles, or the neglect of such genealogyes in them, alterations of names and countries, and diverse such like things maketh the one not only hard, but for the most part impossible, and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other. Even so in this our present question, most certain it is, there have always been both flocks & shepherd's, to continue both the truth & Christ's church. For that we grant is necessary: but yet through continuance of time, force of your Antichristian persecution, distance perhaps of the flocks and shepherds in place from us, that God in some ages under your tyranny hath used to continue his church by, and lack of faithful and careful writers to chronicle such matters, especially your wouluish and foxy shepherds, being always watchful, and mindful to their uttermost, either to blot out their memories quite, in not suffering their Chroniclers to mention them; or else in causing them to deface them, with strange name and false slanders, maketh it very hard (yea if impossible no marvel, you having the evidences, whereby we should do it, for the most part, a long time in your own keeping, to use at your own pleasure) for us to name from time to time, the places and persons, that have always succeeded one another, for the continuance of our faith and Church. But to return again to the consideration of this place of the Canticles: further I say, as I said before, that you err in alleging this or any other place of the Scripture, to prove that the Church of Christ may safely account those flocks in possession of the truth, and therefore to be followed: and those shepherds true shepherds, and therefore meet always to be consented unto: that lineally down from Christ can deduce their personal succession. For so (as I have showed in the first Chapter, and it is not denied of yourselves) sundry heretics in their times, have done and can do still. If therefore you say, you mean still that flock and those shepherds, that together with their visible personal succession, have always been in possession of the true ancient faith, I answer, first, you beg still the thing in question, in supposing that, to have been always joined with your flocks and shepherds, which we say, and are able to prove, they fell from many hundredth years ago.  
Secondly, I tell you once again, and now this time for all, that you shall never be able to prove, but that both that personal succession may be separated from truth, and also truth from it, and that therefore it is neither a certain means to know the truth, nor the Church of Christ by. Thirdly, for your collection out of this place, for the justifying of your Church before ours, because (as you say) from time to time, for this thousand and five hundredth years, you can show the descent and continuance of yours, and we cannot of ours for one hundredth years, no not beyond the year one thousand five hundredth and seventeen, we affirm that both in the one, and in the other, herein you writ untruly. For first, if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine, or government thereof, be compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times, or for many hundredth years after, there is such diversity betwixt the one and the other, as that the one being found the chaste spouse of Christ, the other must needs be proved to be the very whoar of Babylon. The simplicity of the ministery that then was, is turned amongst you into a pompous, Lordly, and more than Princely prelacy. And then the Church was fed, with the pure word of God, contained in the Scriptures, and so led thereby perfectly to understand the will of God; and with you, as carefully as may be, that is kept from her, and in steed thereof, she is fed with the dreams, inventions, and traditions of men. Then she was taught to account the name of Christ, the only name, whereby cometh salvation, Act. 4. and therefore that in him all things were prepared: Math. 22. and now with you, besides him, saints, Angels, your own merits, and the merits of others, satisfaction in this life by yourselves, and after by others, with a number of base things, must join with him in the office of intercession betwixt us and God, and in the most glorious work of our salvation: as though he either could not or would not, go perfectly through with the work of our salvation in himself, and by himself, but had so begun it, as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vain and foolish bymeanes. Then her faithful doctors and teachers taught her, that Christ, in saying, Hoc est corpus meum, this is my body, meant, that it was a sign & figure of his body, as you may read in Augustine against Adimantus, the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Martion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere, in the ancient fathers: and now contrary to nature, yea to the very nature of a sacrament, contrary to the analogy of faith and good manners, yours teach, that those words being uttered by your Priests, thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his body, that whosoever receiveth the outward part of that sacrament, receiveth in by his mouth, the natural body of Christ. If thus I were disposed to go a long, as far as I might, and to lead the reader to a full view of the difference, betwixt the Romish Church that now is, and that which hath been, I should even therewith make a great book. But further of these differences I have noted, as you may read Chapter 19 & 20. and else where in this book. And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons' Fortress, hath noted out of Bede and other authors of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monk (who was 600. years after Christ at the least) and the Popish church, that now is; and infinite be the differences then, betwixt the Church before, in her puerer times, and the Popish Synagogue now. And therefore whatsoever you brag, neither you, nor all your fellows, shall ever be able to prove indeed, that your personal succession hath been joined with the continuance of one and selfsame doctrine of Christ, unto these days.  
And to come to the other point, therein I say, you writ untruly also. For so far of is it, that we grant Luther to have been the first that preached the Gospel that we now embrace, and that we cannot show by whom and where it was preached and received before: that there is nothing more common with us, in answering this your objection of newness, then to tell you, that so far of is it, that it is new indeed, that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospel, taught both in the old testament and new: and therefore (though it grieve you) we tell you that the ancient patriarchs and Prophets, Christ and his Apostles, taught the very same, and no other, and all the ancient doctors and fathers, as far forth as they were able to justify that which they taught, by the Scriptures, were shepherds of our church, and teachers of our Religion. Indeed, we confess, that as Hilkiah the Priest in josiahs' time (2. King. 22.) found the book of God, and was so a means to bring those things to light, that by the wicked proceed of Manasses, Amon and others, had for a certain season lain hid: So Luther in these late days was a singular instrument of God, to revive and bring to light diverse points of Christian faith, which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother, and hide from the eyes of the Church. And yet hereupon it no more followeth, that he was the first that preached our Religion, then upon the former it followed, that Hilkiah was then first the means, to preach the law of God. And I tell you truly, that I cannot marvel yet sufficiently, that any man of any reason, judgement and learning (as you would seem to be) should be so far past all shame, as confidently to set down in print, that we cannot deny, but that Luther 1517. begins first our Church and Religion: & that we can name none 100 or 200. years before, that taught it: when you cannot be ignorant (unless your ignorance be very gross) that we name unto you very many, and that in all ages, to have been of the same Religion and Church, that we are now of. For first there is nothing more usual with us, then to tell you, that all the ancient patriarchs, Prophets, Evangelists, and Apostles (witness the canonical Scriptures) lived and died in our Church and Religion. The same opinion we tell you we have of all the Christian martyrs (whose number is infinite) that were slain in the first 300. years after Christ, under the 10. bloody persecutions, that were in that time. For during that time, our Religion was only professed and embraced in the Church, and very little or nothing was there of those opinions, for the which especially, we account your Religion Antichristian (unless it were of heretics, and such as had learned it of them) in those days once thought of. And after for three hundredth years more at least, in all the most substantial points of Christian Religion, and the greatest questions betwixt us and you, all the ancient doctors, and the Christians that lived in their times (as we have diverse times said, so have we often so proved it, that you shall never be able therein to disprove us) were fully ours. And though after these times, when Boniface the third, had once obtained of that traitorous murderer Phocas, the Antichristian title of Ecumenical, or universal Bishop, the mystery of iniquity did every day work more plainly than other, & hasted to his height: yet (as I have showed in my answer to your publishers preface, and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answer to yourself, where you brag again, as you do here, of 1500. years antiquity and continuance) there were after these times from time to time, that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof, and set themselves against it. For Bertram & johannes Scotus, were with us against your gross real presence, above 700. years ago. Trithemius maketh mention of a book written 400. years ago, which is supposed was written by one Arnulphus, for (as Sabellicus and Platina testify) much about that time was he put to death of the Romish clergy: in which book the author grievously complaineth, of the enormities amongst the said Clergy, and findeth many faults in the Romish Church. Gisburne also in his story writeth, that in the year 1158. Dulcinus Navarensis and Gerrhardus, preached earnestly, that the Pope was Antichrist: and that they had thirty followers, whom they brought into England, who were persecuted then, here for preaching that, and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church. Much about this time (but somewhat rather before) a company of Christians (who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses) did flourish: and there were great multitudes of them, even about Tholossa (whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacon) who did vehemently resist your Pope, and his proceed, setting up unto themselves a Bishop, whom they called Bartholomew, oppugning the gross points of your Religion, even as we do: witness Nicolas Trivet and others, in their Stories. Hildegarde, though she were a Nun, yet in the year 1146. prophesied the ruin of your kingdom at Rome, and bitterly inveighed against the wickedness of your Clergy and Friars. So did Geoffrey Chaucer about the same time (namely in his Dialogue called jacke upland) very saltly taunt, and deride the vanity of your friarly superstition. In the year 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions, whose followers after had given them diverse names, to disgrace them withal. For your friends call them Waldenses, Albigenses, pauperes de Lugduno, Picardoes, Boslavienses, Thaboritas, and Leonistas, changing their titles and names, according to the diversities of places and times they lived in, howsoever their Religion was all one. And these have been of ancient time, and of great continuance, in very many places, namely in Province, Sarmatia, Lyvonia, Bohemia, Moravia, Polonia, Silesia, Belgia, and in Calabria: and of you wheresoever, or whensoever they were, they have been cruelly persecuted for heretics: and yet if their opinions be judged of, not as you (the more to disgrace them) have charged them, but as they in their own confessions of their faith and Apologies, have set them down, they in many things held the very same that we do, and condemned the same for errors in you, that we now do. They are of 400. years continuance at least. For Aeneas Silvius a man of your own (for he was Pope ere he died) writeth, handling the stories of Boeme, that they had continued unto his time from the year 1160. And Gulielmus parvus writeth, that their doctrine was examined in Oxford, and found sound, concerning God and the merits of Christ (for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our own merits with Christ's, to make up full satisfaction and redemption, is of far later invention) and their life (saith he) was commendable, but in the doctrine of the Sacrament, they were found to differ from the Church of Rome. Yea Reinerus a writer 300. years ago, who (as he himself saith) was often at the examination of them, in his book of inquisitions, writing of them, calling them Leonists, confesseth that some said they had continued from Syluesters time, and that some said, they had been even from the time of the Apostles: & he further reports that they had great show of holy life, in living justly before men, and that they believed all things well of God, and all the articles contained in the creed: only he chargeth them, that they hated & blasphemed the Romish Church. And this he further writes, that there was no land, wherein that sect did not creep, & speaking but of them that were then but in one country, yet this he testifieth, that they had there, ten schools in one parish, called Camach, that there were forty congregations or Churches of them, every one having their leaders or teachers, and that their power in his time was such, that none (as he saith) durst then openly resist them. There are yet to be seen (as good authors report) the consultations and records of the proceed of four great Bishops in France against them, written three hundredth years ago; namely of Narbonensis, Arelatensis, Aquensis, and Albanensis: yea 355. years ago, I read, there was a Council kept in Tholossa especially against them. And yet though both of ancient times, and later days, the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to root them out by all possible cruelty, they and their successors continue unto this day, in great numbers in Bohemia, and in other places.  
But because you very oft in this your book, and the rest of your side continually bear the simple reader, and unlearned Christian in hand, that before Luther there were none of our religion, that have so condemned your Church and religion, as we do: I will vouchsafe for the better enabling of every one, that shall read this my answer, to see your vanity and impiety (though this which I have noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly) to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter. Wherefore (to go on in the course of times) though your popish Church hath been in her ruff, and at the highest, that ever she was, this latter 400 years, yet we are able to show, that there have been many even in this time from time to time (and that in sundry places) that have joined with us against you, & that therefore, there is no such newness, or strangeness in our religion a d doings, as you would make the ignorant believe. For in the days of Gregory the 9, in the year 1230 the Greek Church, and other Eastern Churches did quite forsake communion with yours: who ever since join with us, in a number of things against you, as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop, as appeareth not only by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote unto the pope in the year 1237, but also by a large book, written about the year 1384 by Nilus' Archbishop of Thessalonica, wherein he doth not only confute his Supremacy, even as we do, but also he enueigheth against all those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church. And (as it appeareth in ancient record, in the Church of Herford, wherein 29 of the Articles, wherein they differ from the Church of Rome, are set down) they join not only with us in this point, in separating themselves from the Romish Church, & in denying the pope's supremacy (which is the very foundation of your Church and religion) but also in denying purgatory, and masses for the dead, in holding it lawful for their ministers, to enjoy the benefit of matrimony, in not using any private mass, in not denying the cup to any that receive, in not ministering the communion in private houses, in not using extreme unction, and in sundry other points. And by divers Epistles written from thence of late, extant in print both in greek and latin, to Chitreus and other Germans, it evidently appeareth, that they join with us against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religion, and that great hope there is, that they might easily be brought to join with us in the rest. Besides these Eastern churches, even here in these western parts, evident it is, that there have been many great, learned and famous persons, with innumerable followers, at all times from age to age, in these latter 400 years, when the tyranny of your pope's to repress them hath been the greatest and strongest, that ever it was, which yet have openly with us stood forth against them and their religion. For Frederick the second (as divers other Emperors had been before him) as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his son, and Constantine the 6 in the East, and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West) was a notable Antagonist of the 3 pope's in his time, contending against them, to maintain the authority of Christian princes against their usurped Supremacy over them, about the year 1260, as notoriously the Chronicles of those times written by your own men Platina, Sabelicus and others declare. And 20 years before that, Krantzius testifieth in his history: that there were many that preached openly in Suevia, that the Pope was an heretic, his clergy Symoniakes, and generally they all seducers of the people. Ten years after that, flourished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ, a Spaniard, who taught, that Satan had then seduced the world, that the faith them taught, was but such as devils had (meaning belike a bare historical faith) that the pope led men to hell, that he and his clergy did falsify the doctrine of Christ, that masses were nought & not to be said for the dead etc. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretic. Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore, a master and chief ruler then in Paris, who went as far as Arnoldus, applying the same Scriptures, which concern Antichrist, as we do, to the pope and his clergy: and therefore he also was condemned for an heretic, and his books burnt by your popish rout. And in the year 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also, took this William's part against the pope, & wrote a book in his defence. In the year 1290 Petrus johannes, a Minorite, directly preached the pope to be Antichrist, and Rome great Babylon, and therefore he was burnt after he was dead. 30 years and more before this, Robert Grosthead, a famous learned man, and Bishop of Lincoln (for he died in the year one thousand two hundred fifty three) was a great withstander of the pope's tyranny, and three days before his death, having conference with his clergy, he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations, that the pope was Antichrist, and his doings Antichristian. King Philip of France, about the year one thousand three hundred, was a great withstander of the Supremacy, which now the Pope challengeth, and a resister in his dominions, of sundry of his enormities; and William Nagareta, and the prelate's of France, then joined with their king against the pope. Grosthead, this king Philip, and his clergy, as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England, in the year 1346, despised the pope's curse, & appealed from him to God. There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albon, a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England: wherein are laid forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church: in the year one thousand three hundred twenty eight. In the Extravagants, we read, that Marsillus Patavinus, johannes de Ganduno, Michael Chesenas, Petrus de Carborea, and johannes de Poliaco (all great learned men) were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy, and other errors of that Church of his, about the year 1326. There were then also many learned men more, that disputed & wrote against his Supremacy, & which took part with Ludovicke the Emperor against him, as William Occam, Luitpoldus, Andreas Landanensis, Vlricus Hangenor, the Emperor's treasurer, and others. Dantes, living in the year one thousand three hundred, wrote against the Pope, the orders of religious men, and the Doctors of the Decrees, saying, that these were three great enemies to the truth: he flatly hath left in writing in his canticle of Purgatory, that the Pope of a pastor was become a wolf, & that he was the whoar of Babylon. In the year 1350. Gregory Ariminensis, Andreas de Castro, and Burdianus, taught as we do; against your doctrine of free-will and merits. Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine, preached openly against your doctrine of man's merits, and praying to Saints etc. And Franciscus Petrarcha flourishing about that time. in his nineteenth & twentieth Epistle, calleth the seat of the papacy, the whoar of Babylon, the temple of heresy and treachery: and in such sort describeth it, both at Rome, and at Avinion (where then the Pope sat) that he (as it there seemeth) counted it the greatest evil, that can befall a man, to be made pope. johannes de rupe scissâ, about 10. years after, in the year 1340, was so sore a rebuker of the abominations of the clergy, that he was therefore imprisoned: he also compared the pope to a bird, richly clad with other birds feathers: & yet so, as that for the pride of that bird he prophesieth, that the time would come, when the other birds would call for their feathers again, and so make him know himself. Conradus Hagar one of the city Herbipolis, about this time preached 24 years (as it appeareth in the Records of Otho, bishop of that City) that the mass was no propitiatory sacrifice either for the quick, or the dead. And within three years after, the book called Paenitentiarius Asini, was written, wherein the Pope is resembled to the Wolf, the Clergy to the Fox, and the laity to the poor Ass. In the year one thousand three hundred and fifty, Gerrhardus Ridder, wrote a book, called Lachrima Ecclesiae, wherein he vehemently inveigheth against begging Friars. Michael Chesenas before mentioned, amongst other things, preached, that the pope was Antichrist, and Rome Babylon. He had many followers, whereof I read some were burned, as johannes de Castilone, & Franciscus de Arcatarâ, and he himself being Provincial of the Grey Friars, was deprived and condemned, in the year one thousand three hundred twenty two, or there abouts. And in the time of Innocent the 6. 1353, I read, that two Franciscane Friars were burnt at Auinion: whereof the one was one john de Rochetalayda, otherwise called Hayabolus, witness Premonstrat: and Henry Herford. Who (as Henry of Herford writeth) preached in the time of Pope Clement the 6, in the year 1345, that he was commanded by God to preach, that Rome was Babylon, and that the pope, and his Cardinals were very Antichrist: and being brought before the pope for it, to his face he boldly did avouch the same. Brigit (whom you yourselves have made a Saint) about the year 1370, in her book of Revelations, was a most bitter rebuker of the pope and his clergy: and so likewise was Katherine Senensis 2 years after, as Antonine writeth in his 3 part of his story, terming the pope a murderer of souls, a spiller & pillar of the flock of Christ, saying, that they were more abominable, than Jews; more cruel, than judas; more unjust, than Pilate; & worse than Lucifer himself. And the former of them plainly prophesied, that their kingdom should be thrown down as a millstone into the deep: & that the clergy had turned all God's commandments into these two words, Da pecuniam, give money. Mathias Parisiensis a Bohemian, about the year 1370 wrote a large book of Antichrist, proving him to be come, & that the pope was he, & the Locusts in the Apocalyps (he saith) are his hypocritical clergy. About this very time Greg. the 11, sent a bull to the Archbishop of prague, stirring him up thereby to persecute one Melitzius, and his followers, who is charged in that bull to have preached, that the Pope was Antichrist, and to have had congregations following him. As Brushius writeth, in the year 1390. there were burned at Bringa 36. citizens of Moguntia, for the doctrine of the Waldenses, holding also that the Pope was antichrist's and Massens recordeth, that there were burnt about the same time 140. for the same cause in the province of Narbon: and the same author testifieth, that in the year 1210. 24 suffered at Paris, and that the next year there were 400. burned for the like cause; 80. beheaded; Prince Armericus hanged; and the Lady of the castle stoned to death. Hoveden also noteth, that about these times, there were great numbers put to death, in France for this cause of Religion. Trithemius writeth that Ecchardus a dominic friar, was put to death at Hiddelberge in the year 1330, for withstanding the Popish doctrine. There is an old monument of process against 44●. persons for the same cause in Pomerania, Marchia and places there about in the year 1391. And certain it is, that if the records and statutes of all countries in these western parts should be searched, even thereby would it appear, that the number of those that have gainesaied the Pope, & his proceed, in the time of his greatest flourishing, and cruelty ' have been from time to time infinite, how much greater then, is it likely, was the number of them, that informer times (when he was not grown to that power to vex the servants of god, as he hath been for these last 300. or 400. years) have professed the truth boldly against him? Thus are we come to john Wicklifes' time, who flourished here in England about the year of the Lord 1372; and yet I have, for the avoiding of too, too much tediousness, omitted the names of a number of famous men, that have also withstood popery, and joined with us in sundrypointes against them, in those times that I have run thorough, as namely Alcuinus Archbishop of Canterbury, directly with us against them in the matter of real presence, Aelfricus, joachim Abbot of Calabria, Arnoldus Brixianus, Almericus a learned Bishop in Innocents time the third, judged a● heretic, for teaching (as we do) against images; Beringaiius, Reymundus Earl of Tolossa, Lord Peter de Cogneriis, Eudo Duke of Burgandie, the Archbishop of Armah, and infinite others. I might also here again have remembered that with H. Mutius writeth, of an 100 burnt in one day in Alsatia, under Innocent the 3, in the year 1215, when Antichrist in the Lateran council, bringing in the new and monstrous article of Transubstantiation, showed himself to be even grown to his highest degree of iniquity.  
But to let these pass, and to proceed: john Wicklife (as it is famously known) was with us against you in the most and weightiest things betwixt you and us in controversy, and therefore in your council of Constance, you condemned him and caused his dry and rotten bones to be taken up again and burned. Whiles he lived, he had many great learned men here in England that joined with him, as namely Nicholas Herford, Philip Repington, john Ashton, and Laurence Redeman, and so many followers had he, and they and he had such favour and protection, especially of the Duke of Lancaster, that then was, that though your prelate's here in England vexed and molested them what they could; yet they and their favourers in short time grew to that strength and multitude, that by the year 1422 Henry Chicheley then Archbishop of Canterbury certified the pope, that they all could not be suppressed, they were so many, but by force of war. Now betwixt john Wicklifes' time and the flourishing of john Hus (which was about the year 1410) very many both here and elsewhere for following Wicklife were persecuted, as namely here in England William Swinderley, Walter Brute, William Sautry, john Badby, and William Thorpe, whereof diverse were most cruelly burned. Then when john Hus and Hierome of prague had been burnt at the council of Constance, for taking the like course in Boemia, that john Wicklife & his fellows had done before here in England, about the year 1417, the religion that we now profess began to gather so great strength in Boemia, that the professors thereof were able, not only to defend themselves, by force of arms, from the intended oppressions against them by the Bishop of Rome and his adherentes, but also to get many glorious victories against the strongest powers, that the pope could raise against them. Now from the year 1410, when Hus began to flourish, unto Luther's time 1517, wonderful many both there in Boemia, here in England and elsewhere, continually rose up and stood forth, even unto the death, against popery, in the profession of our religion. Amongst whom here in England, at one time, in the year 1413 there were burned in Saint Giles field, under the name of lollard 36. Amongst whom Sir Roger Acton Knight, Master john Browne, and Master john Beverley, were put to death. After, 1415, Richard Claydon, and Richard Turning were burnt in Smithfield: about this time 16. of name, were persecuted in Kent, and very many in other places of this Land. Within a while after, in the year one thousand four hundred twenty two, William Tailor was burnt here, and two years after that, William White was burn: and betwixt that time and the year 1430, father Abraham of Colchester, john Waddon, and Richard Hoveden were burnt. And about that time Paul Crow a Bohemian was burnt there, & Thomas Rhodonensis, at Rome. And ere Luther began to preach against the Pope and his doctrine, from the year one thousand four hundred and thirty, here suffered for the same religion that we now preach and embrace, amongst many others Richard Which, john Goose, one Babran, one Jerome, and others with him, james Marden, William Tilsworth, one Father Roberts, and Sir john Oldecastle, the Lord Cobham. Now since Luther, I hope you will not deny, but the number of them that are on our side against you, even in these Western parts, carry such a visible show, that you cannot but hear and see the multitudes thereof, round about you, at home and abroad to be such, that I dare say your hearts begin to fear, that if the number increase but a while longer, as it hath done of late, your Roman prelate is like to turn up his heels, & to lose his glory in these western parts, aswell as he hath done long ago, in the Eastern countries. And therefore you cannot but likewise think, that he doth very wisely & providently to send before hand (as he doth) his Ihesuits amongst the savage and wild Indians, to prepare him there a new kingdom, against he hath lost his old here. For not only under your own noses in Italy and Spain, and elsewhere, wheresoever your antichristian tyranny causeth your religion to have outward and public allowance, to your grief you see, do what you can, our religion findeth still many constant confessors even unto death, and hath done now these many years: but also you know, that so many kingdoms and countries, have given & yet do, open allowance to ours, and defiance to yours as antichristian; that by this time, you cannot but see, your old argument of universality, groweth fast to be out of date & force with you, and beginneth a pace to stand on our side. For even in these Western parts, our doctrine is embraced and professed, and hath been now a good while, with the allowance of public authority, and yours openly defaced, written and preached against as antichristian, in the kingdoms of England, Ireland, Scotland, Denmark, Sweden, and France; likewise in Bohemia, and in Polonia in divers whole territories & Dukedoms, in Holland and Zealand, and in the Prince of Russia his dominions. And besides who knoweth not, that in like manner it is now, & hath been long, in the Dukedom of Saxony and of Brunswick, in the dominions of the Palsgrave of Rhine, the Dukedom of Wittenberg, & in the territories of the Landgrave of Hessia, and the Marquis of Brandeburge, besides the great common weals of Helvetia, Rhetia, Vallis Tellina, and the countries of divers other noble men in other places of Germany and elsewhere?  
But they that hereby sufficiently do not perceive the folly & falsehood of your saying, that before Luther we can name none to have been of this mind, I refer them for further confutation of that your shameless untruth, unto Illiricus Catalogue of the witnesses of the truth, to the Centuries of them of Magdeburge, and to master Foxes Acts and monuments of the Church, where they shall find not only much of these things, here briefly touched by me, more at large set down, but also further proof out of good authors, that this religion which we now profess, hath had always since Christ, to these days in once place or other, both embracers and teachers of it. And therefore though it hath not always had so visible and glorious a succession of pompous, ambitious, and proud prelate's, as yours hath had, for these later times, since Antichrist grew to his pride and height; yet it hath never been without flocks and shepherds, one going before another in the profession of our religion, even up from our days unto Christ. But when for very shame, convicted with the force of the truth, you are driven to confess, that in some part it may be true, that there were always some that joined with us, yet to drive us from alleging their names and succession against you, you say, they yet held so many different and lewd opinions, that we cannot fetch any continuance to our faith or religion from them. Whereunto I answer, first, that we are not to believe your reports of them, but their own Apologies and writings: whereby it appeareth, that it hath been always your fashion (the more thereby to discredit than) to charge them to hold a number of absurd opinions, which they never held. Besides, I say, though it may be in some points, we and they differ, yet as long, as we & they agree in the foundation, we have learned to account them our brethren. 1. Cor. 3. and so to join with them, in that which they hold well. And lastly (to drive you from this shift) we tell you, that if you will countenance your religion and Church with none, but with those that agree with you fully in all points, there is never an ancient father for 600 years, no not any writer, or pastor in the Church of any good credit, for 1000 years, that you may make any reckoning of: & that (which then will go very near you) even since Augustine the monks coming into England (as I have said) and for 300 years after him, your glorious succession must fail: there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least, betwixt the opinions, that your pastors and doctors hold now, and them that were held then. Take heed therefore, whiles you measure thus to us, and so seek to disgrace them, whose names we cite, that the same be not measured to you again, & so the neck of your visible Succession be broken, to the peril of the life of your Church, which draweth her breath thereby.  
Now to come to your disgrace of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius, and your laying to our charge, all the heresies, that have sprung up, since Luther began first to preach against you, therein do you us manifold wrong. For who knoweth not, that it is no strange or new thing, to find the dear servants of God, and the true members of Christ's Church sometimes and in some things differing, and hoatly dissenting in opinion? Do we not read (Mat. 16.) that one thing seemed good to Peter, and the contrary seemed, and was indeed, good in Christ's judgement? Did not Peter take one course, and Paul another at Antioch, Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharply? And find we not (Act. 15.) Paul and Barnabas, grown to that heat of contention, about the receiving again or refusing of john Mark, that they parted companies? And if we leave the Scriptures and go down to later times, and view the state of the Church even in the purest times thereof, we shall find it no strange thing to see diversities of opinions, and therefore also hot contentions, betwixt those, whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church. Betwixt Polycrates & Victor, the East and West Churches, Irenaeus and certain other Bishops of France, and some Popes, the contention about the observation of Easter, was such Euse. 5.21.22.23.24. that one side excommunicated another, that divers Synods were held to appease it, and yet it continued 300 years & more. And who knoweth not, that there was contention betwixt Cyprian & other Bishops of Africa; & Cornelius & Stephanus Bishops of Rome, for that they even them at Rome, encroached too much (as the other thought) to intermeddle within the jurisdictions of the Bishops of Africa, in receiving condemned & excommunicated fugitives, that ran to Rome from thence. Neither was the controversy small betwixt them, about the rebaptizing of those, that had been before only baptised by heretics. For proof of both which points, I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first book of Epistles, and to the first Epistle of his second book, and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seventh book. Basil also, and the Church of Caesarea (as it is well known) were at hot contention about Ecclesiastical songs and ceremonies. Theophilus of Alexandria, and Chrysostome of Constantinople, had between them a violent and troublesome contention, and great part taking there was of both sides, and that along time. Cyrillus of Alexandria, wrote against Theodoret, in a controversy of Catholic religion. Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Egypt, and one Peter of Alexandria, and their followers of both sides, there arose and continued a long while, to the great trouble of the Church, a lamentable contention. All Ecclesiastical stories (for the most part) have with grief made report of these: yea down from Christ to the age wherein every one of them wrote, it too plainly appears in them, that there was never yet any one century of years, but it hath had new contentions and those many, not only betwixt heretics and catholics, but also even amongst those that otherwise of both sides, were to be reputed sound Christians. Hierom and Augustine (as all men will confess) were in their times worthy so to be accounted, and yet it appeareth in their works, that there was great diversity of opinions, and that in many things of great moment betwixt them. Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome (of whom I spoke before) were both famous Christians, and yet the stories of their times show, that they were bitter enemies. It is notoriously known, that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the council of Nice, Constantine by the books offered unto him one against an other found, that they then had amongst themselves many contentions and varieties of opinions: and infinite it were, to reckon up all the examples that might easily be found to this end. Indeed I read, for these and such like differences, the jews and Heathen people, mocked at the Christians, and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion: seventh Stromat: Clement: Alexandrini. But I never read, that either then or since, ever any sound Christian (though for this cause they took occasion to mourn) yet that they or any of them took occasion to condemn either the one side, or the other, or both; as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ. For, notwithstanding these differences, they saw, that they joined together otherwise as brethren in holding together the fundamental points. And that they, whom you call Lutherans & zwinglians, do so, the book of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches, that hereabouts profess the Gospel, doth make it most manifest and evident. And therefore for any force, that this reason carrieth with it, this their difference (which is in effect only about the manner of the presence of Christ in the Sacrament) they both may be members of the true ancient Catholic Church, as well as these other, whom I have named.  
Another wrong that herein they offer us is this, that being themselves at variance amongst themselves, and having had many and great contentions, and yet having still some, about as great a matter of religion, as this: that yet forgetting the beam in their own eyes, like hypocrites, they are so busy with the moat in ours. For who so readeth the histories of their Popes written by their own friends, besides a number of hot and contentious schisms, troubling all Christendom, for many years together, yea sometimes forty years, continuing betwixt their Popes & Antipopes, he shall find it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope, to contrary the proceed of his predecessor, as though the chief glory of their papacy lay in that: and therefore, poor Gratian took a cumbersome work in hand, to make a concord of such discording Canons. Their religion considered, it is one of the greatest controversies that can be, whither the pope or a general council, have the superior authority; and so must be the carrier of the Church's tongue, to decide and determine controversies: and yet even in this controversy, they are so at concord, that the council of Constance and Basil, determined one way, and the counsels of Florence and Ferraria the other way, and yet both sides hath his stout champions. The Scotistes and Thomists many an hundred years have been at contention, & yet (doubtless) are not agreed, about the conception of the Virgin Mary, whither it were in sin or no, & about divers & sundry other great mysteries of their religion. Yea even in the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ (wherein they would seem to be at greatest unity) yet if a man were disposed to note the divers opinions therein amongst themselves, he should scarce ever know, when to make an end. For there be some of them that hold, that there Christ's body is torn and chewed with the teeth (as it appeareth in the Recantation, that they prescribe to Beringarius) others (as Guymund: de Consecra: Dist: 2.) think that too gross. Some (as Gardener) would have Hoc to signify individuum vagum, a certain thing that is, but they cannot tell what: others now would have it to note that, which is under the accidents of bread and wine. Scotus and Innocentius the fourth, hold consecration to be, not by the five words, but by Christ's blessing: others hold now that it is done, by the five words. When it cometh to the eating, some hold that it entereth the mouth, but no further: others will have it to pass into the stomach, but not into the guts: others will have it to go thither also. Infinite are the questions, that they are fallen into about this matter. And in their last conventicle at Trident, where they had hoped to have healed all these sores, yet even then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captains of theirs, Archbishop Catharinus, and Friar Soto; and that about no small matters, namely, about assured confidence of the favour of God: Predestination, original sin, freewill, and such like matters; Insomuch, that for all the council could do, for six years together, they continually went on in writing books bitterly one against another. The same Catharin also, wrote a book against Caietan a Cardinal, laying therein to his charge 200. errors. Contention also the same Catharin had, with Franciscus Torrensis, a man otherwise of his own faction, about single life of priests, & residence of Bishops, both which, the one held was (as he taught therein) warranted by God's word, the other stoutly holding the contrary. In the Articles of justification, free grace, and original sin, Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen, in his second tome, wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue, contending to prove, that he was deceived and erred in those points. But what should I take upon me, to reckon up the contentions and controversies that are amongst them: For certain it is, they are so many and infinite, that a man, if he were disposed, might write a book of a whole choir of paper, consisting only of a bare recital of the differences of opinions, that their writers have set down in their own books, about points and questions of religion. And yet see, as though there never had been jar amongst them, they brag of unity amongst the simple, and labour our disgrace, with the objection of variety of opinions amongst us, especially about this one point, of the manner of Christ's real presence in the sacrament.  
But seeing now hereby in part you see, at what agreement they are, I hope you think it reason; that they should agree better amongst themselves, before they insult any more against us, for our disagreement. Lastly, they do us wrong, in seeking to disgrace us and our religion, in that since Luther began to preach, there have risen up diverse and sundry fond and foolish heretics. For we read, that immediately after the Apostles times, even within few years, Epiphanius by his time, could reckon up eighty, and Augustine more several errors and heresies, which in effect did grow together with the Gospel, and yet the Gospel not to be blamed therefore, but Satan, who where the good seedsman sowed good seed, useth to sow also his tars: Matthew the thirteenth. And yet it seemeth by Saint john's prevention of this objection, that some, aswell affected to the Gospel then belike, as you be now, were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles, and their doctrine. But john's answer is, they went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But this came to pass, that it might appear, that they were not all of us: 1. john. 3. Even so, we answer you concerning those, that you say, have anywhere since Luther risen amongst us, and fallen into heresies. Yet further, so much the more apparent is the wrong that you offer us in this behalf, in that not only you know, we shun communion with them, as well as you: but that also it evidently hath appeared to the world, that we have been both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them, and in confuting of them from time to time. Wherefore I conclude, that hitherto you have said nothing of any force, for the justification either of your vocation, Church, or religion.    


The V Chapter.  
THe like unto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis (of whom we have spoken before) for he saith in the book above named, that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholic, 
a This rule is sound and good, but it quite overthroweth popery, because it cannot be proved to be this ancient Catholic faith. For ●he contrary is certain both by scripture, and all sound antiquity.  that hath nothing in greater commendation, than the true religion of the Catholic faith: yea, although it were the wisest man in the world, and the greatest Philosopher, and the fairest speaker that ever was, if he came to speak against the old doctrine, that hath been taught us of our forefathers, time out of mind, we ought (saith he) to disdain that learned Clerk, with all his philosophy & cunning, & to hold ourselves to the ancient opinion of the church, the which hath continued until this present day. 
b But such as all popery, and no part of our religion.  And if that now one should bring a new doctrine, that was not heard of before, contrary unto that, that hath ever been taught in the Church, say, that it doth not appertain unto the state of the Catholic faith, & that it is no religion, but a temptation. And therefore, if we will be saved, we ought to live and die in that faith, that hath continued by succession of Pastors, even from Christ's time unto these days. S. Irenaeus a very famous writer, 
Lib. 4. contr. haer. cap. 65.  in his fourth book against heresies, the 65. Chapter, who was within a few years of the Apostles, Archbishop of Lions, writeth the very like, 
c Prove your religion now to be the same, that was in Irenaeus time, and then you say something, & his testimony make for you, otherwise not; and this is impossible.  saying that the true faith & the true knowledge of God, is the doctrine of the Apostles, & the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world, according to the succession of those Bishops, unto whom only the Apostles committed the custody of the Church throughout the world; the which (saith he) is come to us. This said Irenaeus doth write in his third book, and second Chapter, that he and his fellows did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes, which were great heretics, by the traditions of the Apostles, 
d A cursed gloss, for it corrupteth the text; for the tradition that he speaketh of, had good warrant in the written word.  that is to say, the doctrine not written, but received from age to age of the Apostles, and so continued till their time. He saith likewise: unto the Traditions which are of the Apostles, and that by succession of pastors have been used in the Church, we do persuade and provoke those that speak against Traditions. He writes as much more in the third Chapter of the said book: Forasmuch (saith he) as it were to tedious to set forth in one book the Successors of all the Churches, and to tell them one by one, we do●●●●● throw those, that for vain glory do seek to gather disciples together, touching them contrary to that, that doth appertain unto the traditions of the Apostles, the which we do show to them by the said Traditions, and by the faith that hath been taught, and is come to us by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome, the which was founded by the two glorious Martyrs and Apostles, Saint Peter & Saint Paul. These are his words in his third book adversus haereses, 
a The third you should say.  the fifth Chapter. And at the beginning of the said Chapter he saith thus: All these that will understand the truth, may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles, which are manifest throughout the world, and we cannot count the number of those, that have been instituted and ordained Bishops in the Church, and their Successors till our days, which have neither known nor taught any thing like unto the fables and tales, that these do preach unto us. 
b If you say so, you say it without cause, and untruly.  Not without cause we may now a days say the like of the Lutherans, calvinists, & other sects of our time. After this he doth set forth all the Popes of Rome, 
c If the Popes ever since had been like these, you and we should not have needed to strive, as we do.  from Saint Peter unto Eleutherius, which was Pope in his time. And he did affirm, that that number did suffice to prove that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false & very hurtful, because that it was unknown, or at the least, not received or approved by the Church, being under the governance of any of th●se Popes. Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against 
d True, but such you shall never prove ours to be.  a new doctrine, which hath been unknown this 1500. years, or at the least, if any body sought to publish it, he was condemned, as a false perditious heretic.   

The V Chapter.  
YOu must remember, that Vincentius lived 1000 years ago (by your own confession) & that therefore he speaketh of their time, and of the Catholic Church, and ancient faith, that then was. Whereof (if you understand him) we say as he said, and are more willing to join and hold communion with that Church of Christ, that he speaketh of, than you; but then his saying maketh directly against you. For neither your Church, nor faith was in his days. We grant you also, that Irenaeus did urge succession of persons, to stop the mouths of the heretics, as you show in this Chapter out of him: but withal then you must not forget, that he lived not long after the Apostles times, when as yet they, whose Succession he alleged, continued in the sincerity of the apostolic doctrine, from which long ago your Roman Church, as it is now, hath fallen by antichristian apostasy. For that he calleth the principal succession: and those bishops only he teacheth are to be obeyed, who together with the succession of their bishoprics, have received the gift of truth, as I noted unto you out of his fourth book 43 Chapter, in my answer to your first Chapter. But Irenaeus nowhere prescribeth, that his example of urging heretics to see their folly by Succession, for a perpetual rule to follow; neither therein doth he prophecy, that for 1000 years after, & further, those successive lines of Bishops, or any other would continue so in possession of the truth of doctrine, as that safely always they might be joined unto. For he was not ignorant, what was prophesied concerning the coming of Antichrist, 2, Thess. 2. and revel. 17. and that Paul told to the Pastors of Ephesus (Act. 20.) that after his departure, there would arise up even amongst themselves grievous wolves not sparing the flock: which must needs import, that howsoever in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops, that continued in the truth; that yet it was far from his meaning to prophecy, that so it would be always. You reason therefore in this point as one; that to prove the stews at Rome now to be pure virgins, should allege for proof thereof, that they were so when they were young children. For even like difference and odds there is, betwixt the Church of Rome now, and her bishops and pastors, and that that was in the days & times, that you and the authors, that you allege, speak of. For whereas unto these times, the Church of Rome & her bishops & pastors, stood and continued in the truth; since, not only many of the bishops of Rome themselves, whom you hold are freest & furthest of, of all other from erring (as I have showed already most plainly) fell into heresy, but also all your Romish doctrine, which we now count & call papistical, was divised & found out since those times, and is also not only beside, but contrary to the doctrine then taught & received, by the ancient Church of Rome & her pastors; as, ere I have done with you, I hope (at least in great part) sufficiently to prove. It should seem therefore, that either you in thus reasoning are very childish yourself, or else you think you have to deal but with babes and fools; in that because Irenaeus that flourished within two hundred years after Christ (when the Church was yet pure and undefiled, in comparison of the times that followed) could and did urge Succession of persons joined with succession of truth: therefore you may, that live 1500. years after Christ and more. You must first prove, that succession of truth is unseparable from personal succession, & that ever since, and now also, the Bishops & pastors, whose personal succession you brag of, have continued in the truth as well, as they did, whose names he reciteth. Whereof neither, shall either you or any of you be able to prove, as long as the world standeth. Fie therefore for shame, that you never having proved either of these, nor yet being able to do it, you should conclude, that your prescription against our doctrine (which you call new, at your pleasure though indeed it be most ancient; witness the old testament and the new) much rather ought to take place, then his in his time against heretics, that then taught diverse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures. You say, our Religion hath been unknown this 1500. years: or at least, if any body sought to publish it, he was condemned as a false pernicious heretic. But you do but say thus, you prove it not, nor ever shall. For it was both heard and known, many 100 years before yours was hatched: and if every one were so condemned that taught it, than was Christ and his Apostles so condemned. For unless by scriptures we can prove ours to be, the same that theirs was, we ask no favour at your hands. And as long as we can do so, the more we and our predecessors have been condemned by you, the more we know, we have been blessed of God. Now whereas you say in this Chapter further, that Irenaeus did withstand heretics, by the traditions of the Apostles, adding your gloss, that is to say, by doctrine not written, but delivered from hand to hand, and so received from age to age, from the Apostles to that time: therein through the ambiguity of the word (Tradition) craftsly you seek to deceive your simple reader, and indeed you give a gloss, that corrupteeh the text. For let that place of Irenaeus in his third book and second Chapter be perused, and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same book (though either you or the Printer mistaking it, send us to the fifth Chapter, where the words are not, which you cite) and most evidently it shall be proved, that though Irenaeus have there the words by you cited, yet by the traditions of the Apostles, which he speaketh of there, he meaneth no doctrine, nor points of doctrine (as you do usually by that word) contrary, or besides that, which was also taught in the word written. For the question was of God the father of our Lord jesus Christ, which Valentinian & Martion denied: against whom he there showeth, that he fought first with the scriptures: wherewith when they were urged, he saith, they are turned straight into an accusation of the scriptures, as though they were not right, had not authority, might diversly be taken; saying further, that truth could not be found of them, by those that are ignorant of tradition. For the truth was not delivered by them, but by lively voice: & that therefore Paul said, we speak wisdom amongst them that are perfect, not the wisdom of this world. And this wisdom to every one of them (saith he) is that which he himself hath devised. Of which heretics (their words & yours, when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures, are so like) undoubtedly you have learned to plead against the scriptures, for your unwritten traditions. Now when thus he had showed, how the heretics in his time, shunned trial by the scriptures, and appealed to tradition, he goeth on and showeth, that when he was contented to come to the tradition of the Apostles, kept & observed in the church, down from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastors, than they resisted tradition also, saying, that they were wiser, then either those pastors, or the Apostles themselves: and so indeed neither by the scriptures, nor yet by making demonstration unto them, that the same doctrine taught in the scripture, was also delivered by lively voice, first by the Apostles, and so received from age to age and continued in by those pastors, of whose succession he speaketh, could stop their mouths. And thus any man of mean capacity may perceive, that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is, to show the heretics, that the doctrine which he taught, concerning God the father of our Lord jesus Christ, first was warranted by the Apostles writings, and then also taught by them, by lively voice, and so delivered and continued from hand to hand, amongst the faithful pastors, succeeding one another even unto that time. And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles, and not (as you falsely expound him) doctrine unwriten, beside or contrary to that which is written (as the Popish traditions you strive for be) if you had been disposed you might have learned in the 1. Chapter of the same book, where he saith, That which first they preached, after by the will of god, tradiderunt nobis, they delivered us in writing, to be the foundation and pillar of our faith. And indeed it is an usual thing, with the fathers of the primitive Church, often by the tradition of the Apostles, to understand the very same doctrine, which is contained in their writings. Herein therefore, & so likewise in all other points in controversy betwixt us, it is a common trick with you papists, to urge the father's words quite contrary to their true meaning.  
But because you first, and namely bring in Irenaeus for your unwriten traditions, which is the window indeed, that you would have feign left open unto you, for then thereby, you hope you may thrust in and upon the Church, what you list: and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine, when all other shifts fail: let us see, whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him. He (as Eusebius reporteth Hist. Eccles. lib. 4. cap. 14.) said, that Polycarpe taught, that one and sole truth, which he had learned of the Apostles, quae & Ecclesia tradit, which the Church delivereth forth. Where of necessity, by those things which the Church delivereth by tradition (that he there speaketh of) you may not understand any other, but those which have warrant from the word written, and in no case those things that are besides that or contrary thereunto: for then, he would not have called that which Polycarpe preached, the one and sole truth: for questionless those things are true, that are contained in the scriptures. And this clearly appeareth, if you mark the words as they are in Irenaeus himself, in his 5. book & 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation unto; which are these, Polycarpe did mention, or teach those things, which he had heard of the Apostles, that is, all things agreeable to the scriptures. Again the same Irenaeus in his 3. book and 3. cap. (which is one of the Chapters by you before alleged) saith, that under Clement, the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians, showing them, quam traditionem, what tradition of late they had received of the Apostles, that is to say, that God the father almighty, and so forth (as is expressed in Moses) is the father of our Lord jesus Christ. And that he is so taught to be, of the Churches (saith he) they that will learn, may by the Scriptures, and so they may understand the apostolic tradition of the Church. Where it is most clear, that he telleth us himself, that by the apostolic tradition, he understandeth this same doctrine of God the father, which before they wrote, the Apostles delivered unto the church by lively voice, & afterward, as it appeareth, they set down in writing. Is this then honest dealing in you, to make your Reader believe, that he meant of unwriten doctrine (such as the is, for which you & we strive) seeing he telleth you himself, that by the apostolic tradition of the church, you are to understand this doctrine of God the father, most plainly & plentifully written and set down in the scriptures? You might have learned of S. Paul (2. Thes. 2.15.) that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, tradition, may as well be referred to express doctrine in scripture, as that which is delivered by word of mouth: where the Apostle (as then very little of the new testament being written, and as then therefore the whole Apostolic doctrine therein not being expressed) saith, Hold fast brethren, the documents delivered you, whither by word, or by our Epistle. But you are the less to be blamed & the more to be borne withal, for this your wilful thus abusing your reader, because the making or marring of your church and Religion, standeth upon unwriten verities (or rather forgeries) which you call the Apostolic or the holy churches traditions. For there are few or none of those points of Religion, wherein we differ from you, and strive with you about; but your own great champions have confessed, have their ground from hence, and not from the scriptures. As any man, that will take the pains to read them, may see, in Peter Soto against Brentius, in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechism, & in the 5. book & 100 c. of Lindans panoply, where they reckon up almost all the points in controversy betwixt them & us in Religion, and when they have done, plainly confess the ground thereof to be but tradition. And therefore to countenance this only bulwark of your church & Religion, at least with those that either for lack of leisure or learning cannot examine your quotations, it is not your fault here alone, but the common fault of you all, where you find any mention in fathers of tradition, though it be never so evident that thereby they mean nothing, beside that which also hath warrant from the word written, to allege that place straight to countenance your unwriten traditions. To prevent you therefore hereafter of thus abusing the simple, I would wish them & all others to mark, how flatly against your unwriten & unwaranted traditions by the written word, the father's with one consent have written, for the absolute sufficiency of the scriptures. Besides that, which you herd out of Irenaeus & Tertullian, to this purpose, Irenaeus saith further, in his fifth book, we must run to the Church, & be brought up in her boatswain, & nourished with the scriptures of god. And Tert: against Hermog. writeth, Let Hermogenes show, that it is written: if it be not written, let him fear that woe, that is threatened or appointed to the adders, or takers away. As for Origen, we have heard him tell us before, that our senses and declarations without the witness of the scriptures, have no credit in his. 1. Hom. upon jerem. And great and worthy Athanasius saith, The holy scriptures given by divine inspiration are sufficient to show the truth, against Idol: Hilary saith, it is well, that we are content with those things that are written, in his third book of the Trinity. Cyrill upon john in his 12. book and 68 cap. granteth indeed, that all things that Christ did are not written, but he saith, those things are written, which the writers thought sufficient both for manners and doctrine. Chrysostome writing upon the 2. to Timothy. Homil. 9 saith, If there be any thing needful, either to learn or to be ignorant of, we shall learn it in the Scriptures: and in the commentary upon Matth. commonly also fathered upon Chrysostome, we read these golden words, They that be in Christianity, let them flee to the Scriptures, because they can have no other proof of Christianity, but by the Scriptures. To this end read also Chrysostome upon the 2 to the Thes. Hom. 3. Basil also very sharply writeth, that it is a most evident argument of infidelity, and a most certain sign of pride, if any man, either do reject any thing of that which is written; or bring any thing not written, seeing the Lord saith, My sheep hear my voice, and they follow not the voice of a stranger: in his treatise of true and godly faith. Where also he noteth, that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men, most vehemently forbiddeth, that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God, or (which God forbidden, saith he) be added thereunto. And therefore he in Moral: Reg. 26. saith further, Whatsoever we say or do, it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures. Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth, that seeing faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, without doubt whatsoever is without the holy scripture, seeing it is not of faith, must needs be sin: and therefore he addeth in that rule, let us stand to the arbitrament of the scriptures, and with whom doctrine is found consonant thereunto, let the sentence of all truth be adjudged of their sides. Hierome upon Agge. cap. 1. saith, those things which of their own heads they devise, as though they came by apostolic tradition, without the authority and testimony of the holy Scripture, the sword of God striketh: who also upon Math. cap. 23. saith, that which hath not authority from the scriptures, as easily is despised, as approved. And contra Heluidium he saith, we believe it, because we read it: and we believe it not, because we read it not. August: against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. book, writeth, That there is an Ecclesiastical canon ordained, whereunto belong the books of the Prophets and Apostles: by which books we judge of all other writings, both of the faithful, and of the Infidels: out of whom already we have heard diverse plain testimonies to this purpose, especially, that against Petilian in his 3. book and 6. cap. set down in the end of the confutation of the 3. chap: Damascen is as plain as any of these, in his 1 book of right faith, cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt etc. All things (saith he) which are delivered us by the Prophets, Apostles, and Evangelists, we embrace, we acknowledge & reverence, beyond those, seeking no further. For all things concerning faith and manners, he confesseth are plainly contained in the scriptures; de doct. Christ: lib. 2. cap. 9 Infinite such places might be cited, out of the ancient fathers (for they are full of them) whereby it sufficiently appeareth, that this was the uniform and general judgement and opinion of them, of the sufficiency of the scriptures. If therefore in deed and truth you made any reckoning of their general consent (as often times you will pretend) you would yield unto them in this point, and so spare much labour, that you bestow to get credit to your traditions unwriten. Which if you would once be brought unto, we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures, have a fair hand of you. Which you espying (whatsoever otherwise you would seem to account of the fathers, to blear the eyes of the simple) in this they shall keep their judgement to themselves, for you like it not. So that this, and such your like dealing with them, caused one once to tell you, that the fathers are unto you, as counters in the hands of him that casteth an account, according to whose will and pleasure, sometimes one and the selfsame counter standeth for an ob: that stood immediately before for a pound or more. So with you, when it pleaseth you, an ancient father's testimony is of great weight, and when it pleaseth you again, 20. of their testimonies are nothing. Howbeit, I hope, the indifferent reader by these testimonies doth & will perceive, that you wonderfully seek to abuse God's people, when yet you would persuade them at any time, that the ancient fathers are favourers, and patrons of your unwriten traditions. And I trust, this may serve to make it sufficiently appear, that in the judgement of these ancient fathers, your Andradius may be ashamed, to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini concilii. That the greatest part of Catholic Religion is left unto the traditions of the church not written: and that your Lyndan was extreme mad, or very drunk, when he wrote, It is most extreme madness to think, that the whole and entire body of evangelical doctrine, is to be searched out of the apostolic letters written with ink, & out of the little book of the new testament. Panopl: lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make unwriten traditions, sometime equal & sometime superior in authority to the canonical scripture, & that upon this ground, that all truth is not sufficiently taught therein, you have learned of the Encratites, Manichees, and of the Montanists, Valentinians, and others, as it appears in them, that wrote against them.  
And yet (O good God) what a stir now of late this Andradius, Lyndan & other such your great champions have made, & what cost they have bestowed, to draw men from that estimation, that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiency of the canonical scriptures, in making large treatises and discourses to show, that the authority thereof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient, no not half sufficient for the direction of the church, either for Religion or conversation; and that they are obscure & hard to be understood, & all upon this occasion, that will they, nile they, they are driven to perceive, that their opinions wherein we differ from them, cannot any longer be defended by the scriptures, for all their sophistry & cunning; and that therefore they see they must maintain the credit of them by the authority of the church & her unwriten traditions, which they may say to be what they lift, or that else they must be driven to throw us the bucklers, and to run out of the field. But you do foully deceive yourselves, if you think in this great light, that men espy not, that this is a shameful shift, and which argueth that your cause is even giving up the ghost, that you can hold out no longer, unless it be, by preferring the authority of the church the wife, before Christ the husband; & by giving her your commission to sit as judge over her husband's word, & to add there unto, and take therefrom; how & what seemeth good unto her. And your fault herein is the more intolerable, because by the church you understand always your popish Synagogue that now is. For even children, may see, that you are very far driven, when there is no other remedy, but you must thus open your mouths, and prepare your pens, to disgrace his written word (which all men know to be his word indeed without question) for the gracing & countenancing in this sort of that, which though you call his word, you are never able to prove to be so. And for this who seethe not that we may justly say of you, as Tertull: Apolog. 5. said of the heathen in his time. Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur divinitas, nisi homini Deus placuerit, Deus non erit; homo iam Deo propitius esse debebit, that is, with you the godhead is esteemed of, as man shall think good; unless God please man, he shall not be God, man now must be good to God. Howsoever you are ashamed, thus grossly with these profane pagans to speak, yet it is evident in that you still say & write, that the written word of God is inferior in authority to the church, & hath the canonical credit from thence, & that the sense thereof is & must be, whatsoever your Bishop of Rome for the time being doth define & determine so to be, relying still upon unwriten traditions, & bearing men in hand, that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures, as you do, all men whom your enchantments have not bewitched & made blind, may see, that in effect you are as gross, as they of whom these words were truly written. This once we know to be his word, which we find set down in the Canonical scriptures, & we are sure this was written by the direction of God's Spirit, for the information of the Church. And we cannot be ignorant; but that this Spirit of God foresaw, what dangerous heretics there would be, which (if they were not prevented by leaving the word of God fully in writing) under the pretence of unwriten traditions, would bring in damnable heresies. And therefore seeing it is evident unto us, that he in these writings, begun to leave instruction unto us, to settle us in the certain truth, & we know he could go thorough with it, because he is God & the fountain & author of all wisdom & truth; & are sure that he was willing, because he perfectly loved the church, & by Christ's promise, by the ministry of the Apostles was to lead it into all truth: we must needs think it flat blasphemy, to think, that the written word of God is any way unsufficient for the full direction of the Church in all matters. And therefore howsoever you please your Sects in this devise of yours, in fighting thus for the traditions of the Church, think not to the contrary, but any man of mean judgement will descry both your v●●●tie and impiety therein, by making this reason in his own mind unto himself; The spirit of God, in the writers of the Scriptures, saw it good and necessary, to leave the word of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters, written: by that is done and written, it is clear he took it in hand; and to take it in hand, and not to perfect it, is to leave the Church without a perfect touchstone, to try all doctrines by, and argueth that it was either because he could not, or would not perfect it: whereof the one, robbeth him of his almighty power, and infinite knowledge; the other of the perfection of love and faithfulness towards the church● therefore most certainly in the written word, there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church: and consequently those unwriten traditions, that some strive for, are superfluous. Thus you have your answer to this Chapter.    


The VI Chapter.  
SAint Augustine in his Epistle. 
a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all.  365. about the like matter, doth set forth all the Popes by order, which have been from S. Peter's time until Anastasius, which was Pope in his time, and by his continual succession he doth prove, 
b By the same argument we disprove popery, because none of them that he reckons up there, was of the Romish religion that now is.  that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical, because that none of those Popes which he did recite, nor no part of the Church did receive it. I pray you, may not we say the like by the 
c No, not by them truly, whom you call calvinists.  Caluinists and other heretics. The said S. Augustine in the Epistle that 
d It seems you are a learned man For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called, he calleth not his so. The Epithet Roman you add, & the words all and continual, for he speaketh but of succession to his time, and yet there he saith, that o●●●e truth is to be preferred before all these.  he doth call Epistola fundamenti. cap. 4. doth write the reasons that did keep him under the obedience of the Catholic Roman Church. And among other, he doth allege the common consent of all nations, & the continual succession of Bishops. 
e This showeth your great ignorance or negligence, for of th●● argument Augustine wrote two books, and in every book many chapters there be, but this is common with you, the more to trouble your reader, to send him to whole books, and beside, sometimes to set down your quotations, as though the author had wrote but one, when he wrote more of that argument, or as though he had wrote more, when he had written but one.  And in his book which he made against the adversary of the old and new law, he doth name the succession of the Bishops, as most certain to answer to that that we said before of S. 
* Ephes. 1.  Paul: 
f You writ Ephes. 1. for Ephes. 4.  I mean, that he would not have us to be wavering and doubtful in our doctrine, but that we should be firm and stable, the which stableness is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures, according to the traditions of the Church, and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops. 
f It continued so to Augustine's time, that is, three or four hundredth years so, ergo so a thousand five hundredth years and more it should so continue, the argument followeth not.  The Church (saith S. Augustine) from the Apostles time, hath continued through the certain succession of the Bishops, until our days.   

The VI Chapter.  
IN this 6. Chapter, you cite three places though some of them wrong quoted out of Augustine, whereby indeed it appeareth, that as Irenaeus did object succession, even so did he, to confute the heretics of his time: that taught things contrary to the scriptures; but as I have said unto you, concerning Irenaeus, so do I concerning him. You must remember, that Augustine lived & wrote within 400. years after Christ: unto whose time the Bishops & pastors whose succession he produceth, had continued at least, sound in the fundamental points of Christian Religion: from which you & your predecessors fell away long ago, & therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose do, you cannot do without peril, & to an ill end. Again you must be told, that as Irenaeus was not, so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet, to show that to the worlds end, it would be safe thus to do. And lastly, I would have both you and your reader to remember, that it is not bare personal succession, that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of, but that when it was joined also with succession of truth of doctrine, as it was in his time with them, of whose succession he speaketh, and is not now with you, and them, of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered, whatsoever things further by you, or any of your fellows are alleged to this purpose out of Tertullian, Cyprian, or Epiphanius (which you might have as well alleged, as Irenaeus or Augustine) be answered. For they all of them lived within 500 years after Christ, when as yet the state of the church stood in good terms, in comparison that yours doth: and they all spoke of succession of persons, succeeding also one another in the Apostolic truth, and they spoke but for their own times: they prophesied not that so it would be always. And yet thus it is your fashion, to beguile the simple, that whatsoever you read 1000 years ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome, that then was the Catholic church, or Catholic faith, that you would bear them in hand, is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now, when as yours compared with those times, hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then, in a great number of weighty points. But for the better satisfying of the reader, indeed S. August: (what account soever either in these places here recited by you, or else where he seemeth to make of personal succession, or of any such outward thing in the church) made more account of sole truth, taught only by the canonical Scriptures; then of all other things besides. For even in in his 165. epistle, which is the epistle (as it should seem) which you meant, though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred & one then there are in all: after, he saith, we presume not so much of these, as of the scriptures. And in the second place, by you here cited out of him (which ignorantly you say he calleth Epistola fundamenti, whereas he calleth none of his epistles so, but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called, one book) in the later end of the fourth Chapter whereof, after he had reckoned up the things which did hold him in the bosom of the Catholic church, and might likewise hold any believer therein, though truth as yet did not most manifestly show herself, he addeth by & by, but with you (speaking to the Manichees) sola personat veritatis pollicitatio etc. only promise of truth rings; which truly if it be showed to be on your side, so manifest, that it cannot be called into doubt, praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus, quibus in Catholicâ teneor, that is, is to be preferred before all those things, whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholic Church. The third place likewise, which you allege here out of Augustine (as you have quoted it) serveth only to bewray either your gross ignorance or negligence. For I find he wrote 2. books against the adversary of the law and the Prophets, but none in all his tomes can I find fathered upon him, written, as you say, against the adversary of the old and new law: and if you meant the former, there being two books of that title, and every one consisting of many Chapters, why speak you thereof as though he had written but one, and name not the Chapter: when you tell us where to find the place, you shall be more particularly answered thereunto. In the mean time, you see in Augustine's judgement in the two other places, that the truth taught in the canonical scriptures, is to be preferred before all other motives to keep a man in the true Catholic Church: contrary whereunto I am sure he neither teacheth where you mean, nor any where else. You should therefore in his opinion far better bestow your time than you do, if you would bestow it in proving by the scriptures, that you & your Church were stable in this truth: especially seeing truth itself, even here hath enforced you to confess, that that stableness is attained unto, by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures. But you add, that these scriptures then must be understood according to the traditions of the church, and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops. If by the church you did understand (as you should) the true and pure church of Christ, and by her traditions and Bishops, such as were sound, that is, such as are truly justifiable by the canonical scriptures, as the ancient fathers, Irenaeus, Tertullian & Augustine, with others of those, and former times were wont to understand them, as I have showed before, when to stop the mouths of heretics they did appeal to them; then we would most willingly join with you that issue, by the scriptures so understood, to try whether you or we have attained to the stableness of truth. But understanding thereby, as you do, your Romish church for these last 500 or 600. years, & her traditions & Bishops: we say and sure we are, we are able to prove it, that so far of is it, that the scriptures are to be understood according to them, that there is no readier way to misunderstand them, and to make them to have a mutable and flexible sense, now one way now another, then to make them (they being so contrary as they be to the ancient & sound traditions of Christ's church, which always were consonant (if not the very same) to that is taught in the word written; & the Bishops you mean, being likewise so different from them, that were in the primative church, and often also so varying amongst themselves, as they are in the interpreting of them) to be the rules of right understanding of them. Finally if you had any forehead or conscience, you would be ashamed so to abuse your poor simple reader as you do, in going about to make him believe: that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it, from the Apostles times, through the succession of Bishops, to his: that therefore he said it had so to ours, there being above 1000 years difference.    


The VII. Chapter.  
YOU do study as much as you can, to reject our succession, and not without cause, 
a Succession of persons, without succession also in truth, never was esteemed.  knowing that this only doth suffice to overthrow all the heresies of those new reformed Gospelers. Caluin, as the most apparent, doth seek to prove, that our reason is of no force, because that the Greeks have had ever succession of pastors, and yet we do not hold them as Catholics. But if the Reader do well note that, that we have already said, he shall find the answer unto this objection, I mean, because that the Greeks have not had succession 
a Hold you to this, & you may give over your brags of succession for shame.  and continuance of doctrine, called unity of faith by the Apostles, the which ought ever to be joined to the continuance of the Pastors, to show the true recognisance of the Catholic Religion. There is none that do study and read of those matters, but that do know the unconstant faith of the Greeks, as touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost: the which error they had abjured at the last council of Florence, and yet notwithstanding they did turn to it again; besides diverse other light things, to speak moderately, 
b You have as many things of importance and more too, gainesai●d by your forefathers.  which are not approved by their ancient fathers, S. john Chrysostome, S. Ciril, S, Basil, & Athanatius, nor yet by our adversaries at this present time. The which errors I have no need to set forth in this book: for my intent is but to speak of that, that pricks us at hand, because of ill neighbourhood. Some do allege unto us the 
c We never allege this alone, but together with the false doctrine and unlawful vocation of your Bishops and Pastors.  negligence of our pastors, and their ill lives, for the which cause they say, that the mentioned succession cannot take place. But this argument is of no force: For although that the careless lives of some Bishops and ecclesiastical persons, have been so great & so hurtful unto the blood of our saviour Christ (I mean, to the souls bought with it) yet notwithstanding that, 
d Yet thus for the principal point, you are glad to fly from your great prelates to your poor priests.  the church hath not lost the succession & continuance of one doctrine, as touching the administration of the sacraments, by those that were deputed by the Bishops. 
e Indeed this kind of division is altogether practised in your Romish Church, by your Cardinals and great prelates.  If one should see a Prelate doing nothing, and his lieutenant doing all, which of those two would you take to be Bishop? they have both divided their charges: the one receiveth the profit, the other taketh all the pain. If they be both content, what loss do you feel? he that hath any interest, let him value the damage. And although that the negligence of the Bishop be not excusable 
f And yet nothing more common with you, then wilful continuance, yea by your Pope's good leave in this sin.  before God with the diligence of the deputy, nor his conscience clear, yet this aught to suffice, that though his faults be through negligence, or through evil living, 
g True: but such doctrine you shall never prove yours.  yet that ought not to perturb the assurance of our doctrine, the which we have taught us by the word of God, interpreted by the true doctors, that have been before us, agreeing in unity of faith, as I have already said: For neither the naughtiness of 
h There is no such there mentioned, this is your common hap in your quotations It seems you would have said 2. Kings 16.  Achas, Num. 1. nor of joram, nor of diverse other great sinners, which are enrolled in the book of the generation of jesus Christ, were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham, that is to say, that he would be borne of this line: Even so, the ill lives and conversation of diverse wicked Popes, that have followed after Saint Peter, have never been 
a This is true, and yet you never the nearer. For though all Papists fail in faith, yet his church never faileth.  able to move Christ to break his promise, that is to say, that the faith of his Church should never fail, Math. 16. and that the gates of hell (that is to say) of infidelity, which are the ports of damnation, should never prevail against it. 
b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein, serveth to this purpose, any whit at all.  Esay. 58. Our adversaries therefore, that take such great pains to set forth in golden legends the lives of the wicked Popes, that have been since Saint Peter's time, thinking thereby to overthrow the succession of the Catholic ecclesiastical faith, 
c Your comparison is odious: neither do we lay open their wicked lives, to that end you speak of, but to show that your glory is your shame.  do no less offend God, then if they should go about to prove the promise of God made to the patriarchs to be vain, because of the evil lives of their successors. Therefore those that do reproach unto us now, that the Popes of our days are not altogether so holy as S. Peter, we do confess it. But they cannot deny, or they will confess unto us, that the above named evil Kings, Achaz, joram, Manasses, Amon, jechonias, and others did lead no such holy lives, as Abraham, Isaac, jacob, or David: & yet notwithstanding those evil Kings have been set forth in the generation of our Saviour, as the fathers of the just jesus Christ. Let them judge then that have any wit, whether this be a great folly or no, to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse, to be the Pope's spiritual children, because they were sinners, seeking thereby, to overthrow all the ancient customs of the Church.   

The VII. Chapter.  
WHither only your succession doth suffice to overthrow all our Religion, or any part of it (though you here confidently say it is, and suppose that to be the cause, why we reject it) I refer to the judgement of the reader, by that which hitherto hath been said by you, and confuted by me concerning the same. Whereby also, I doubt not, but every indifferent reader may perceive, that we have and do still yield other causes of our rejection of it, and not this at all. Whereas you call our Religion here heresy, that you have learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus, Act. 24. But as he termeth poor Paul there, a captain of the Sect, or heresy of the Nazarites, and the high Priest and elders said, it was even so: yet he was not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, which they so termed, but stoutly said before Felix to their faces, that according to that way which they counted heresy, he worshipped the God of his fathers, believing all that was written in the law & the Prophets: so, though you give us never so many nicknames, and term our Religion never so oft new, and an heresy, and have your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing, we never a whit the more mislike of our Religion, as long as we are able in truth to say with Saint Paul (which our consciences witness, comfortably we may) that therein we do but believe, that which is taught us in the canonical Scriptures. Indeed not Caluin only, but every one of us, when we have to do with you, in this question of your succession, we tell you your reason drawn from your succession, is of no force, seeing the Greeks (whom you account heretics) may use that argument, as well as you. But to prevent this our objection against your argument of succession, you say, They have not succession and continuance of doctrine, the which ought ever to be joined to the continuance of pastors, to show the true recognizance of the Catholic Religion. We are glad to see & hear, that evidence & force of truth hath wrong from you this kind of honest & true reply to our objection: yet we thank you not for it at all. For full gladly (if our objections had not driven you to it perforce) would you have run on which bare succession of Bishops & pastors, without any mention of this. Well, howsoever you have been drawn to confess thus much, thereupon it doth most evidently follow, that if there be as little continuance & less too in the Apostolic faith, and doctrine in your succession, as there is amongst the greeks; then by your own confession, your succession is as weak a recognizance of the Catholic Religion, as theirs. And therefore the case thus standing, you had need to have bestowed less pains to prove your personal succession, and more to have proved this succession and continuance of the true Catholic doctrine: for the other without this, you see is nothing. What a preposterous course is this then, that you, have taken, to take such leisure to bestow pains on that, which when you have gotten is nothing, & to find no leisure to bestow any pains on this, which if you could have proved, your adversaries would have stood with you no longer? Enter yet into this controversy, when you will, & I dare undertake, if you will be tried in this case, by the canonical scriptures (which as I have showed, you must of necessity) it shall easily be proved, that (notwithstanding all you can say against the Greeks) your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies, and is a greater Apostasy from the ancient Catholic, apostolic faith, then theirs. The greatest thing you charge them withal is, their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father & the Son: which indeed, if they denied in that sense that is objected against them by you, doubtless therein they were heretics. But it should seem, that they refuse only that word, as not understood of them, & added (as they say) without the consent of the whole church to the creed, of fear only, least by admitting the word, they should thereby be enforced to confess, that he came not of one beginning, but of two beginnings: in the mean time using other words, expressing in effect the same thing. And if it be thus (as in the last session of the Florentine council it should seem to be, & else where) them in that respect, their cause is not so ill, as you would make it. But be it (though you only say both, & prove neither of them against them) that they held it in the worst sense now still, & that also (as you say) in certain other smaller things, they hold otherwise, then was held by Chrysostom, Cyrill, Basil, & Athanasius: yet I say, & will stand unto it, that as dangerous heresies, & more in number be held of your own company, against the truth of Christ's person & office, them they hold in all: & in far more & greater points of weight, are you gone from the ancient fathers, that have been in the latin church, within the first 600. years, them they have done from theirs. And therefore in the mean time, whiles you will join this issue with us, & until you have disproved this my assertion, by the same reason you reject their succession, will we persevere in rejecting yours.  
Now whereas you secondly imagine, that we labour to weaken & overthrow the force of your argument taken from succession, by lai●ng out the lewd lives & negligence in doing of their duties in many of those pastors & Bishops, of whose succession you boast: true it is, that provoked by your too too great brags of your personal succession, & by your immoderate railing against some of our pastors and ministers, whom yet you cannot stain, but with false and maliciously devised tales, sometimes some of us have been occasioned, to cast your own dung into your faces. And we being able, as we are, even out of your own stories, so justly to lay such a number of most notorious things to the charge of very many of your greatest Prelates, and the matter being notorious, that few or none of your Popes and Archprelates ever take it upon them, by preaching to feed God's people (which is the principal duty of a Bishop) we think still, that that which we say and object against you in this behalf, may justly cause you to be ashamed of such fathers, & so to cease both your brag of succeeding them, & your railing against us. To disprove the force of this our allegation, you dispute the matter, as though we went about to prove that the succession of truth hath ceased in the Church, because we thus object against the persons of many of your predecessors: whereas we most constantly hold & believe, that it hath always continued, and that (though you grow ten times worse, than any that hath been before you) it shall still, unto the worlds end. But withal we tell you, it hath been continued by others, and not by those wicked and negligent pastors and predecessors of yours, that we speak against. For as their lives were devilish, so was their doctrine Antichristian, as yours their children's . Too too foolish therefore is it that you writ, that we do no less offend God in laying forth the lives of sundry of your Popes, thinking thereby to overthrow the succession of the catholic Ecclesiastical faith; then if one should go about to overthrow the promise of Christ to the patriarchs, because of the bad lives of diverse of their successors. For we hold, that the Succession of the Catholic faith, hath continued, and will to verify that promise of Christ. Matthew. 16. though never so many of your pope's go to the devil. Neither did we ever in laying forth their most filthy lives, think thereby to overthrow the Succession of faith: for we never took them to have any society or conjunction with it, since they became such. But you still (according to your old wont) taking it for given, which shall never be offered you, that their personal succession, and the catholic truth went always together, which we do most earnestly deny, imagined that we could not speak against the one, but that therein also, we sought to overthrow the other: when as we are persuaded, that of all other persons under heaven, your Popes for this long time have been Satan's most forcible means, to overthrow both the apostolic truth, and Catholic Church. Wherefore you see, you might well have spared your pains in the greatest part of this Chapter: and so let any, that hath wit, judge, whither it be not great folly for any man to be so simple, as to seek to be the child of such fathers, as neither had honesty, nor any soundness of religion, as many of your Popes, for any thing that you have yet said to the contrary, have been, whose children yet (how bad soever) you would have men to be.    


The VIII. Chapter.  
Upon Moses Chair there sitteth (sayeth our Saviour Christ) who? not the godliest men of the world, but the Scribes & Pharises: do that they say, but not that that they do. But if our new Gospelers had been in those days, they would have told Christ, that his commandment was not to be observed, because the lives of Anna and Caiphas were not correspondent unto those of Moses & Aaron: for the first came to the vocation of priesthood, being called of God: but the last attained to it by the vocation of their 
a As many of yours do, or by worse means, or else your own friends belly them.  purses, and yet notwithstanding, rather than our Saviour would break this harmony of the mystical body of the Church, he was not only content to permit, that Caiphas should execute his office (although he was unworthy, as one that came to it by Simony) but rather he did confirm his pontificat with the gift of the Spirit of Prophesying, with the which he was 
b That is gross blasphemy.  as fully inspired, as ever was David, Esay, or any of the rest; and all to teach us that, that I have already said: I mean, that the Ecclesiastical order, & the administration of the Sacraments, do not consist in the good or evil lives of the pastors, but only of God and of his word, interpreted by them. As touching that that appertaineth to our health, God hath no regard to the life of the magistrate temporal or ecclesiastical: for he can aswell serve him with an evil person, to do good to the common wealth, as of a good; as the godly prophecies of the wicked Balaam do well witness. Num. 24. And here is to be noted, that when we talk of the succession of Bishops, and of the doctrine continuing in the Church, we do not mean only to talk of the 
c Indeed you do wisely to call for help of others, for otherwise the neck of your succession hath often been shamefully broken.  Popes, but of all the Bishops and other having Ecclesiastical charges, not only at Rome, but thorough all other places, where the true preaching, and right administration of the Sacraments be used. And therefore you do pretend in vain, to prove, that the above mentioned succession hath been interrupted by the dissension of Popes & Antipopes, and by the Civil wars that have been at Rome in times past. For although that the Sea of Rome was vacant for a time, the Chairs of Bishops in France, Spain, England, and over all Christendom were not vacant, they did not for their debates let to administer the precious body of jesus, and the rest of the Sacraments, to preach and teach the people, doing many other godly deeds. 
d This is notoriously false, as the stories witness at sundry times, when there were two or three Popes together, each having his faction, and one banning the other.  And to be brief, the Civil dissension at Rome did not cause the rest of the people throughout Christendom to break the unity of their faith, which they held before their discords. The ambition of the Popes of Rome was in nothing prejudicial unto those that held the integrity of their faith, nor through the reason of their ill governance, our Saviour Christ did not lose his rightful inheritance.   

The VIII. Chapter.  
THat which is further alleged in this Chapter to prove, that Scribes and pharisees must be heard and obeyed, sitting in Moses chair, notwithstanding their ill lives, doth nothing at all serve to prove, that your lewd Popes were to be heard and obeyed. For to sit in Moses chair, is not (as you imagine) to succeed him in place or office, but in teaching the truth, as he did; and so your wicked Popes, that we speak against, never sat in Moses chair, nor in the Chair of any Apostle, or apostolic man: but in the Chair & seat (in respect of their doctrine) of the whore of Babylon. But by that you afterwards remember of Caiphas & balaam's prophecies, it should seem you were of opinion, that to preach and to hold the truth, is inseparable from your Pope's Chair and office: and that therefore it may not be imagined, but that, how lewd soever they were, they could not but prophecy, & teach the truth, because these in the places by you mentioned (notwithstanding they were lewd men) did. Indeed very fitly might your Popes these many years be compared unto these two, they resemble the one so fitly, in crucifying Christ again in his members: and the other, in seeking to curse the people of God for filthy lucre. But that upon these particular facts of theirs it should follow (as thereupon you would seem to infer) that lest the Harmony of the mystical body of Christ should be broken, God always hath guided the mouths of your Popes so, that they could not err in judgement, I see no reason at al. For out of particular facts rare & uncertain, you conclude a general and constant rule. Doth it follow, think you, pilate's wife learned by her dream, that Christ was innocent: therefore women's dreams are always true? Daniel a young child found out the unrighteous judgement of the judges: therefore young children always shall be able to do the like? Or to come to your own examples, doth it follow, that because Caiphas, & Balaam, prophesied right, therefore neither they themselves at other times could err, nor any of that office? The Scripture testifieth the contrary. For the same Caiphas judicially pronounced our saviour to be a blasphemer, Mat. 26. & Paul. Act. 23. chargeth Ananias, sitting there judicially as high priest (as he had just cause) to give judgement contrary to the law, in commanding him to be smitten. And howsoever Balaam the false prophet, prophesied there well, it is evident by the text, that it was sore against his will, and that it came to pass by God's especial power, in guiding & bridling his tongue. And yet it appeareth after, that the same Balaam by his wicked counsel was cause of that trespass concerning Peor. Numb. 31. and you may read. 1. King. 22. that 400. false prophets prophesied untruly to Ahab. I doubt not but God, when it pleaseth him, can cause your Popes, as he caused these (how wicked soever) to speak the truth. For judas, after he had betrayed his master, yet before he hanged himself, justified his master: and the Devils themselves oftentimes in the Gospel acknowledge Christ aright to be the son of God: but thereupon it followeth not, because he can do it, that therefore he will do it, & always hath: nay rather that which is prophesied 2. Thess. 2. is verified in your Popes, because they received not the love of the truth, therefore God sent them strong delusions, that they should believe lies: for according to this faith, they have spoken.  
O what horrible & intolerable blasphemy did your hart conceive, & your pen (to your perpetual infamy) utter, when upon occasion of Caiphas prophecy, uttered by him, either not woting what he said, or rather (as Cyril in his 8. book upon john, Chap. 3. noteth) having a malicious purpose thereby to persuade the jews, that it was expedient to put Christ to death, lest the whole nation should be destroyed by the Romans: you do set down these words, that Christ did confirm his pontificate with the gift of prophecy, with the which he was as fully inspired, as David, Esay, or any of the rest? O what injury in these words have you done to those holy prophets, and to the Spirit of God in them, as thus to match them with this cursed hellhounde? We must hold, that they were endued with the Spirit in such measure, as that in their writings and sayings we must be sure, they did not err, or else the ground of our faith (which is their writings) is shaken: whereas this wretch even the same year (as I have showed you) pronounced Christ to be a blasphemer: and therefore most devilishly erred. And indeed he was wholly destitute of the Spirit of God, not only then, but even in this also: for (as I noted before out of Cyrill) he, in uttering of those words, had a devilish meaning and intent, though God by his secret power so ordered his speech, as that his words might also carry this sense, that it was expedient that Christ should die for the salvation of man, as there also the same Cyrill observeth. And therefore for this he is no more to be said, to have had the Spirit of truth to direct him, than you may say, the devils and judas had, that I spoke of before. Why then doth S. john upon these words of his give this note, that he was high Priest that year? because it pleased God so to temper his words (unware to him) that whereas he spoke to hasten the death of our saviour, his word sounded, that the people should utterly perish without the death of Christ: which was most true, but not his meaning. By this monstrous comparison of yours, we may learn, that it is no marvel that you that durst make this beastly comparison, dare compare your pastors and Bishops (how wicked soever both for life, and judgement in Religion) which the ancient true pastors of Christ's Church. Yet hereby you have taught us to trust your lofty and swelling comparisons, the worse as long as we live. You strive with your own shadow in labouring to prove, that the effect or fruit of the ministry of the word and sacraments, dependeth not upon the life of the minister. For it is a thing that we hold, teach, and preach as much as you. You do therefore but abuse your reader, in going about to make him believe that we reject your Bishops only for their lewd lives: whereas the thing especially that we condemn both you and them for, is your Antichristian doctrine. It is well, that when you have said what you can for your line of Popes, yet the consideration of the oft interruptions of their succession by schisms, and otherwise, you are glad in the end to give us this note, that when you talk of succession of Bishops and pastors, you mean not only them, but all other Bishops and pastors of your Church, in whom the succession hath been continued, whensoever it was interrupted in the other. For hereby in effect you do acknowledge, that you mean not, nor think it wisdom, to lean too much to the succession of them, lest they let your building fall. Wherein I prefer you yet before Stapleton, in that herein the truth of the manifold interruptions of their succession seemeth to have prevailed more with you, then with him. For he writing against Doctor Fulke of this matter of succession, though he saith he will not hold succession in the same places, and sees to have continued generally, yet in this particular line of Pope's only, he thinketh that safely he may. You are also to be commended for acknowledging dissensions to have been betwixt your Popes, and Antipopes themselves, and in leaving them without defence for their lewd lives, ambition, and negligence, even to answer for themselves. For indeed as it cannot be denied, but that these things most monstrously have been found in very many of them, so you could not have had any honesty in smothing of their faults. Yet you go some thing to far in saying, that their dissensions were not prejudicial to the unity of faith, held before. For how could it be, that one part of the world joining with the Pope, the rest with his Antipope, or Antipopes (it being an article now of your Catholic faith, Boniface 8. de maioritate & obed. Cap. 1. under pain of damnation to be believed, that all souls must submit themselves to your Pope, as to the Supreme head of the Church) but that these for many years together banning & cursing each others faction, thereby the unity of faith was not only troubled, but marvelously broken.    


The IX. Chapter  
NOw seeing that we have yielded you a full account of our vocation to the ministry: if we may be so bold, I think it is no great presumption to demand the like of yours. 
a Caluin never thus reasoned, & therefore you play the papist with him, that is you belly him.  For even as Caluin hath heretofore called upon us to have us prove, that we are the Children of God, or otherwise, he would absolutely affirm, that God cannot be called the author of our vocation to the ministry. We say likewise, that if you do not show the like of yours, you shall give us leave (although it be against your wills) to say, that yours cometh not from God, but from the procurement of his adversary.  
Tertullian, 
b We know he spoke against such heretics as you Papists be.  who, as you know, above 1200 years agone, speaking against such as you are, in his book de praescrip. haeret. doth write these words. Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum, evoluent ordinem Episcoporum suorum, per successiones abinitio decurrentem. Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae cursus suos deferunt, sicut Romanorum Clementem Episcopum à Petro ordinatum: id proinde, utique & coeteri, exhibeant, quos ab Apostolis in Episcopalibus constitutos, Apostolico semine radices habeant.  

c Here either is ignorance or wilful corruption of this authors meaning & drish.  You see well, by these words, how that Tertullian doth continue with the succession of the Pastors, the which he doth affirm to be necessary, saying: that you, and such as you are, ought not to be received to the ministery of the Church, nor to teach the people, contrary to the ecclesiatical order, except that you show the antiquity of your table. And it is necessary (saith he) that you reckon your Pastors and Bishops by order, & how they have succeeded one after another: for this is the way, that the Churches do maintain their right. The said Tertullian doth ground his similitude upon the custom of the Civil governance. For when that these that are Princes or Lords do survey their lands, the subjects are bound to show, what lands they hold of them, setting it all forth by account, showing by what tenure they hold their copy, and whether it be demean● or free hold, coming by inheritance or bought: they ought likewise to name him that had it before, and by their own title to overthrow all other persons, that may make claim unto it. 
a Not yet, nor ever will you be able.  According to this pattern and order we have given you account of our inheritance, although we were not bound to it, setting before your eyes the similitude of Solomon, by whom our Saviour jesus Christ is represented. That same Solomon doth give the sheep that runs astray counsel, to set his Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the Shepherds, & to follow their flock, until he come to the place where Christ was nailed on the Cross at noon days. The which counsel, as the most certain (according to Tertullian his opinion) we do follow, thinking it sufficient, to keep us firmly in the right and ancient Catholic faith. For we that are the sheep of Christ, do follow, as touching our religion, the steps that our fathers led before us, and, as it were, going up upon the ladder of jacob. Gen. 28. 
b Whatsoever you mean: you can never deduce your religion so high, for it hath been a patching together long, even till of very late days.  we mount by degree and degree, I mean, from year to year, & from age to age, until that we come to S. Saturim, S. Denice, S. Marcial, & S Gratian, which were those that did first teach the Catholic faith in Tholose, in Paris, and to those of Guyenna and Lorraine, and so consequently to all the rest of the Saints, that first did teach the Catholic faith through all Christendom, whom we do call in judgement before God, to defend that faith which they have given us, from hand to hand; they may call upon the Apostles which sent them, & the Apostles may direct themselves to Christ, who by the mouth of his most loving Apostle doth command us, to continue in that that was taught us at the beginning. 1. john. 2. And so we shall continue and rest with the Father, the Son and the holy Ghost. And if any body doth come to teach us any other doctrine, then that which hath been taught us at the beginning: I do not say, 
c No take heed of that, for the book of the Scriptures is your bane.  written in book, but printed in our hearts, that he be holden as an 
* Galat. 1.  Anathema, or an excommunicate person: yea, although it were an Angel of heaven. The which doth persuade us, not to receive your 
d Ours is new to you, as the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles was to the jews in that time, that understood not the Scriptures.  new doctrine or Gospel, but to keep ourselves under the governance of our old Pastors and Bishops, without having any respect to their evil or good lives: for as touching our faith and salvation, that doth import nothing. 
e This is hardly & boldly said, for any thing that you know, some take occasion the rather thereby to have them and so to be converted.  The good and holy lives of jesus Christ and his Apostles, hath profited nothing, neither to the obstinate jews, nor to the unbelieving Gentiles: 
f Open confession, would have open punishment.  Nor in the like case, the depraved life of many evil Bishops that have been at Rome, and in other places have not shut the doors of heaven, against those that are true Catholics, and lead particular lives; the which are two principal points that do quiet our consciences: 
g The first is talk and the la●ter i● little been seeing how many of you have learned to be l●●d● of them.  I mean, the one, that we believe that, that our Pastors and the universal Church have believed these thousand and five hundred years: and the other, that their evil lives cannot hurt us. For as the Apostle doth say, every man shall bear his own bundle.   

The IX. Chapter.  
NOw persuading yourself, that you have yielded us a sufficient account of your ministry, when as only you have countenanced it with a show of personal succession, and a bare brag without any proof at all of succession also in the apostolic truth (as it may appear by that which hath been said) you call us to a reckoning for ours, and will us to show, that God is the author of it, or else to give you leave to say, it cometh from his adversary. We answer you, that our calling is of God; first, because orderly, according to the order of the Church, wherein we live, we are by them that are deputed by the Church for that business, tried and examined, and then with imposition of hands, and special prayer unto God, fit for that purpose, admitted and ordained ministers of his word, and Sacraments. Secondly, because our office of the ministry itself is the same that Christ gave unto his Church, under the names of pastors and Doctors, whose office and properties are set down and described. Acts. 20. 2. Corinthians. 4. 1. Timothy. 3. Titus. 1. 1. Peter. 5. And thirdly, because we are able to prove by the written word, that we feed God's people committed unto us with that only food, which God hath allowed for his children, and minister the Sacraments according to Christ's institution. Lastly, God himself hath sealed & ratified our ministry to be of him, in the effectual vocation & conversion of many thereby. Let us now therefore hear what you can say, either to weaken this our assertion, that our calling is of God, or any of these reasons, that we use to prove the same by. First in tertullian's words de Praescrip. adversus haereticos, you bid us show the beginning of our Churches, and reckon up the succession of bishops down to us from the beginning etc. you have heard that the same Tertullian in the very same place, yea even in the words immediately following yours, addeth, Be it that heretics devise thus to do, for what is not lawful for them, being once fallen into blasphemy? But though they shall devise so (sayeth he) they shall gain nothing. For their doctrine compared with the apostolic doctrine, by the diversity and contrariety thereof, will pronounce that their Churches have neither Apostle, nor apostolic man for the author thereof. Whereof when he had given a reason, he addeth, that those Churches, which cannot show any Apostle, or apostolic man to be the founder thereof, in that they were founded long after, as many are yet, in eâdem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae de putantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae: that is, they are no less to be reputed for apostolic agreeing with them in the same faith, even for the affinity thereof. You thought it good to stop before you came to these words. For these words indeed take away all the force of the objection grounded upon the former, in that hereby it is evident, that howsoever Tertullian in his time could show the original of the Catholic Church, by deducing it, and the doctrine therein professed, even from the Apostles to his time; yet he thought it was possible for heretics to make show of the like succession of persons; but secondly and especially, because thereby it is most clear, that to prove a Church to be Apostolic, it is not necessary for it always to be able, to deduce such a line of personal succession down from the Apostles, but it is sufficient to be able to make it appear, that the doctrine thereof agreeth with the doctrine of the Apostles. Which unless we be able to do by the Scriptures (whereby we most cartainly may know, what their doctrine was) let not our Churches be accounted apostolic. But if this we be able to do (which we doubt not of) and yours compared and conferred with the apostolic doctrine therein expressed, shall prove both divers and contrary; then for all your fiction of succession, we say unto you in tertullian's word, that so your Churches shall be proved to be founded neither by Apostle, nor apostolic man. For as the Apostles taught not contraries amongst themselves, so neither did the apostolic men (saith he) unless it were they, that departed from the Apostles: and ours shall prove themselves (though they were not able to deduce their Succession from the Apostles) by their affinity of doctrine, with that of the Apostles, to be apostolic; and so to have their original and beginning from Zion: and so also in the end it will fall out, that Tertullian spoke rather against such as you are, than against us. And thus you see Tertullian hath sufficiently answered himself, and also, hath given us weapons against you, & to defend ourselves withal. You gain even as little by your similitude taken from tenants, who to prove their title good, must show their Landlords, how by succession they came to their lands. For if all Landlords should thrust all their tenants from their possessions, which are not able to deduce the descent of their teniments from one to one, even from the first that held it, & purchased it; the 10 tenant in the world should not long quietly enjoy his own. Yet you for your parts (if your bare brag were a proof) are such tenants to the inheritance of the church of Christ, and the Catholic truth, that you have not only proved your title thereunto to be good, by showing by all lineal succession, how you came to it from Christ, & his Apostles; but thereby also you have quite overthrown our claim. This is easily said, & well bragged of you, but it is more, then either you can or mean to prove. O yes, say you, we can, as it were, going up upon the ladder of jacob mount from step to step, until in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholic faith in Tholossa, Paris, and Guienna, as to S. Saturim, Denice, martial, and Gratian, and to the rest of the Saints. It may be these were Saints, you speak of (and yet you have not showed us that) yea, it may be also you can from age to age, even from that time to ours, now, name us the persons, that have succeeded one another, from those men you speak of: but you shall never be able to prove, that all these persons, which have succeeded, have continued in the sound apostolic faith, and so have derived it down from the first to you that be the last: which unless you prove, this climbing upon this ladder you talk of, will do you small pleasure. But you are so confidently persuaded, that the religion, that you are in possession of now, is the very same, that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning, that you denounce him anathema, be he man or angel, that preacheth against it. Yet this is no proof, that it is the very same. For you may be deceived: and if God would give you grace to read, and rightly to understand the Scriptures, sure I am, that even in thus saying, you would find, that you have as far, as your authority reacheth, cursed and excommunicated your own selves, & your whole Church. So far of are we (though it please you still to call our religion a new Gospel) from being afraid to join with you in anathematizing them, that preach any other Gospel, than Christ and his Apostles preached at the first, that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto. And therefore for all your supposed newness of our religion, we wish with all our hearts, according to john's counsel 1. Epist. 2. that that might abide which we have heard from the beginning We think Tertullian saith most truly, that cometh from the Lord, & is true, that is first delivered; & that is strange and false, which is brought in after. De praescrip. adversus haereticos. Wherefore we say also most willingly with him in an other place, in his 4 book against Martion: Id est verius, quod est prius: etc. That is truer, that is former: that is former, that is from the beginning: and that is from the beginning, which is from the Apostles. But then we conclude with him, De praescriptione adversus haereticos; undè autem extranei & inimici Apostolis haeretici, nisi ex diversitate doctrinae etc. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles known, but by the diversity of doctrine, which every one of his own mind, hath borough forth and received against the Apostles: therefore let depravation of Scriptures, and their exposition be accounted to be, where the diversity of doctrine is found: hitherto Tertullian, and we with him; and therefore do not charge us any more with newness, nor make your brags any more (to deceive the simple) of antiquity, unless by the Scriptures (wherein the simpliest know the apostolic doctrine is contained indeed) you can prove your doctrine to agree with theirs, and ours to disagree. For you may not think, that you can cause them, that have any wit or discretion at all left them, to believe that your doctrine is the same, that was taught at the first by the Apostles, because you can say so, or because you can tell them, their father, grandfather, and great grandfather took it so: as long as they see, you are loath to come to the trial with the learned, whither it be so, or no, by Gods written word. Even herein thundering out your Anathema (though you would seem therein stout and resolute in your religion) yet if your words be well marked, it may evidently be perceived, that like a dastard you shun the trial of your doctrine by the written word. For you say, If any body come to teach us any other doctrine, then that which hath been taught us at the beginning, I do not say, written in book (no, take heed o● that but printed in our hearts, let him be Anathema etc. whereby you bewray your mind, namely to be this, that when it shall come in trial, what that religion is, that was preached at the beginning, you would not have the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter, but that which was then written in men's hearts, whereby you mean your unwriten traditions. But I pray you, how shall we know what was written in men's hearts, by the ministry of the Apostles better, or more safely; then by that which they wrote? Especially seeing (as Irenaeus hath told us) that which they preached at the first, after by the will of God, they committed unto writing, to be the foundation, & pillar of our faith: in his 3 book Chap. 1. As for your unwriten word (to speak most moderately) you know the credit thereof is suspected: and certain it is, it must agree with the word written: for God is one and selfsame both in writing and speaking: or else worthily may it not be suspected only, but flatly also rejected, as a false and counterfeit word: which but that you know it doth not, you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning have said simply, that you would have him held Anathema, that preacheth any other doctrine, than that which is written in the books of the scripture. But your own conscience telling you, that yours was another doctrine, than had warrant fro thence before the curse should drop out of your pen, you thought it wisdom (lest in your own knowledge you should have cursed you selves) to tell us that you directed your sentence, not against those, that teach another doctrine, than those books will warrant (for of such you allow well enough, or else you should disallow yourselves) but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was written in our hearts: so leaving to yourselves liberty, to make the poor people believe, that that was whatsoever you would devise.  
O this is too too gross & paltry dealing in matters that so much concern the souls of men, as this doth, especially in this so great light, that shineth now every where amongst us. As for your lives, & the lives of your pastors and great bishops (though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of) yet if they had continued in the profession of the truth, therein we would have held (for all the other) communion with them. But seeing their lives have been such a long time, as there were never worse in Sodom, nor any where else (witness your own stories Benno Cardin: Platina, Sabellicus, Abbas Vsperg: and others) but especially their doctrine hath been directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion, to the doctrine taught us in the Scripture (as I show in divers places of this book) we have (as we are counseled Apocal. 18.) separated ourselves from you and them, lest by holding society with you in these your sins, we should in the justice of God have been driven also in the end to be partakers with you in your plagues. And therefore to conclude this chapter, though you brag, that you have two things to quiet your consciences withal, that you believe a doctrine, that your pastors & the universal Church have taught you 1500. years; and that their ill lives cannot hurt you: yet in deed and truth you have neither of both: for your ill lives being joined with ill doctrine hath bereaved you of both: & so you have had nether the universal Church of Christ, but a particular Synagogue of your own: nor any sound or good pastor either for life or religion, these 600, or 700 years to teach you your faith.    


The X. Chapter.  
NOw to turn unto the taking of your accounts, may it please you to show us, how you have followed the steps of the flock of Christ, according to the counsel, that we gave to his reasonable sheep, as we have said before; who hath taught you the way that you do follow? what doctors were your first tutors? who hath taught you, that the precious body of our Saviour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar? who hath taught the doctrine (or, if it be not grief unto you, heresy) which you would have us to receive as a Gospel? I know before hand, that you will allege me jesus Christ, and his holy Apostles, whose steps you do profess to follow, preaching every where, that there is no difference between your Church (or, to say truth, Synagogue) & the church of the Apostles. But I pray, let me understand by what means you can join yourselves unto the Church of the Apostles, seeing that 
a This is an impudent untruth  you condemn & cut off all the Christians that have been & are between you & them. For to verify this, I will allege no other but your own works: for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord, speaking of the oblation of the body of our Saviour Christ, as it was offered in old time, he doth write punctually these words: calvinus, in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini. I find (saith he) that those of old time have changed this fashion, otherwise then the Institution of our Saviour did require, seeing that their supper did represent a certain spectacle of a strange invention, or at the least, of a new manner. There is nothing more sure unto the faithful, than for them to hold themselves unto the pure ordinance of the Lord, by whom it was called a supper, to the end, that only his authority may be our rule. Yet it is true, that when I consider their good meaning, and that their intent was, never to derogate from the only sacrifice of Christ, I dare not condemn them of folly, and yet I think, that one cannot excuse them, that they have not somewhat failed in the exterior form: for they have followed more the Ceremonies of the jews, than the order of jesus Christ did permit. And this is the point, in which they ought to be resisted: for they have conformed to much unto the old Testament, not contenting themselves with the simple institution of Christ, they have to much inclined themselves unto the shadowed Ceremonies of the jews law.  
These are Caluins words. The Reader may by them see well, how this noble Reformer of the Gospel, doth correct all ages and Churches, be they of Martyrs, Confessors, Doctors, Interpreters, Preachers, or any others, from the Apostles time unto our age, yet doth he not deny, but that having some regard of their simple ignorance, he is content to be so good to them, as for this time not to condemn their error or impiety, because that which they did, was with a good intent: but yet fearing, that the bearing them to much favour would trouble his conscience, he giveth sentence against them, saying, that 
a Yet this proveth not that, for the which you alleged him.  they ought to be resisted, because they were not content with the only institution of Christ, but rather, that in this case they have followed the shadows of the jews. Now, for my part, I think Caluin & his fellows so scrupulous, that they would not join themselves unto persons, that are spotted with jewish Ceremonies. 
b Are you not ashamed thus to belly him, is it not evident in his words, that he speaketh, but only of some in old time?  And because that all manner of people, how wise soever they were, from the Apostles time until our days, have fallen into this error, he doth counsel, my masters, his deformed followers (according to his sentence) to follow none of them at all, but only the pure word of the Lord, preached by jesus Christ, and by his above mentioned Apostles.   

The X. Chapter.  
IN that by the Scriptures we are able to justify our doctrine, and therefore diverse times have called upon you to come to that trial, and yet cannot by any means bring you unto it, & that we are sure, that that doctrine therein warranted, hath always by God by the means he hath appointed for that purpose, been preserved and continued in his Church. You returning now again to take accounts of us, how we have followed the flock of Christ's sheep that went before us, & fed by the tents of his shepherds, are answered. And yet for your better and more plain satisfying, who hath taught us the way that we follow, & who were the Doctors, that were ou● first tutors, we answer you, that Christ, his Apostles, & evangelists in the new Testament were our first tutors, & since them in the principal points of our religion, the aucient Fathers, whose names and monuments are known unto the Church, that lived for 1000 years after Christ, & those that I named unto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter. But particularly you would know of us, who hath taught us to deny the real presence of Christ's body in the Sacrament of the altar? Here I suppose, you mean by real presence that real presence, which is in this case now taught, and received in your Church, under the forms of bread and wine, to the mouths of all receivers, be they faithful or faithless: for otherwise none of us do deny a true and most certain presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiver. This then being your meaning, we do not only (as you suppose) answer you, that we have learned of Christ & his Apostles to deny it, but also of all the ancient writers of credit, & accounted in the Church for 700, or 800, years together, & since we have been continued in the same by Bertran, and others before named, and their followers, as we have made it most evident in many books written to that purpose, & namely of late in a great book called Orthodoxus consensus, the true catholic consent of the holy Scriptures & ancient Church, of the truth of the words of the Lords supper, and of all the controversy thereabout, printed at Tygure 1578: which book all the swarm of you will never be sound able to answer & confute as long as you live. And therefore all the rest of this Chapter is needles, wherein you suppose, that betwixt Christ and his Apostles, and us, there is none that we can produce of our judgement, or otherwise against you. But you take upon you to prove, that we cut of them all, that have been between them & us, because Caluin hath written (handling this matter of the sacrament) that he did find, that they of old time had changed the fashion of the administration thereof otherwise, them Christ's institution would bear etc. whereupon your conclusion followeth not, for divers causes. For an argument from one to all holdeth not: as Caluin hath done so; ergo it is all out opinion, & we all do so. For though we accounted of him as of a rare & singular minister of the Lord, yet we do not bind ourselves to do and say whatsoever he did, and said. For we know him to have been a man subject to error and infirmity for all his gifts: neither will you be contented, that such an argument should hold always drawn from any one of your greatest, & most famous learned writers, to press all the rest. And a second reason of the weakness of your argument is, that there is more in your conclusion, then is in the antecedent given you by him. For you would conclude (for those are your words, to the proof whereof you cite Caluin) that we condemn & cut of all the Christians, that have been & are betwixt Christ, his Apostles, and us: whereas Caluin speaketh not of all, but of some of old time. The 3 reason Caluin himself giveth you, in the even in the words set down by you, he showeth plainly, that though in them that he spoke of, he noted some aberration from the simplicity of Christ's institution, yet he did not therefore cut them of from the Church, nor condenne them. What? are you such a cutter, that you strait cut of all those from communion with you, in whom you can justly find any fault or error in opinion, or practise of life? Surely then you must cut of most of your best friends. That which we can fondly prove to be a fault in brethren, either ancient or of later time, we may safely note, tell them of, and labour to reform; & yet as long as they join together with us in one God, faith, and Baptism; otherwise, we can, and aught to hold peace & Christian communion with them: or else where can there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church? For some differences of opinions, & usages, there have always yet been, and will be betwixt one particular Church and another, and betwixt some members of the true church, or other. You needed not therefore (I warrant you) one whit have been afraid, that Caluin & his fellows were so scrupulous, that they would not join in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there: and yet the letteth not, but that he should counsel his readers, to prefer Christ's own simple institution before the usage of them, or any other differing from it.    


The XI. Chapter.  
YOu do● very well, that S. Paul doth compare many times the mystical body of the church unto a natural body, seeing that jesus Christ is the head, unto whom the body is joined by joints, bones, & sinews. If one should then demand of you, how the feet are joined to the head, you will answer me, by the legs, which are next unto the feet. And if I ask you how the legs are joined to the head, you will answer, by the joints, and by the 〈◊〉 of the back, and so consequently from member to member. I do believe, that we are all of one accord, 
* 1 Cor. 10.  that the end of the world is at hand, and so consequently, that we are the lower most part of the body, so that 〈◊〉 the feet or the legs. Then, my masters, you that have made so f●ne a● Anatomy of the Mass, at my request make another of the ministry of your congregation. 
a You were a very pleasant man be like, that could thus play yourself a fit of mirth, and when you had done, dance after your own pipe, & it seems, you thought that the sport than would be so pleasant, that no beholder could forbore laughter.  If you should see such another as Apelles, that would paint a man, and that he had drawn his head, and without painting the rest of his body, he had set his feet under his ears, what would you sa●● to such a Table? (Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici?) Would you not think, that he was a simple painter, or else a great jester? Even so do you deserve, that one should laugh at your ministery: 
b This is untrue and a gross slander, for we hold and teach, that ever since Christ to our days, there have been both shepherds and sheep joining with us in the unity of faith, & therefore you laugh at your own shadow and vain fancy.  For you will join your Church (if it may be so called) unto the church of the Apostles, without setting forth any members between them. You take but scant measure, when you will cut of all the Bishops, Pastors and doctors, that have been from the Apostles time till our days, they being the members that follow the head of the church. This may well be called a new Religion, or, to say the truth, it is a mere presumption, to fly without wings, or to climb without a ladder. And I say to you again, that this is not the way to follow the counsel of the great Shepherd, that I mentioned before, who doth say unto us, that if we will not miss the way of the Catholics, we ought to follow the flock of those sheep, that have gone before us, that is to say, that we should reckon 
c But th●s in truth yours cannot do, therefore yours is not the Catholic Church by your own reason.  by succession, the Pastors that have succeeded in continuance of one kind of doctrine, the which, as we have showed, the Catholic church doth, and hath ever done.   

The XI. Chapter.  
As though you had most substantially proved by Caluins' words, that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and us, in this Chapter you urge the metaphor of a body, whereunto usually the church of Christ is compared: whereupon you gather, that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body, so there must be in the church; and that therefore our church must needs be a monstrous misshapen thing, in joining the Christians of these later days, with the Apostles, without any betwixt, and fos●●ating, as it were, the feet of the body hard to the ears, without any other members betwixt the one and the other. And thus having framed this merry conceit in your own head, you call upon your friends to laugh at it with you, and so you proceed in telling us, that whiles we take this course, we fly without wings, and climb without a ladder, and despise the counsel of Solomon: which after your manner you interpret that we should reckon by succession the pastors, that have succeeded in continuance of one kind of doctrine, the which (you say) you have showed you have done. To what purpose now is all this, seeing in truth neither we do thus cut of all Christians betwixt them and us, neither have you showed any such succession of pastors down from them to you, continuing in your doctrine. Truly to no other purpose can they serve, but to express your own ridiculous vanity. Howbeit, because you called in the former Chapter for the names of those, that have caught us to deny your real presence in the sacrament, and upon a conceit in your own fancy, that you have posed us, you have grown to be thus full of these swelling words of vanity, and because I fear, neither you, nor many of your disciples, will vouchsafe to peruse those books that I sent you unto, for answer in that point, & yet have hope, that for your sake some of you may chance vouchsafe to read this: I will not stick with you, particularly to satisfy your request a little further. First therefore understand, that we have learned to deny your kind of real presence of Christ himself, the institutor of this Sacrament, because he hath flatly and vehemently affirmed without exception, john. 6.54. that whosoever eateth his flesh, & drinketh his blood hath eternal life. Whereas by the means of your doctrine it followeth (because all that receive this sacrament have not faith, but many lack it) that it shall be eaten of many that shallbe never the better by it, but the worse. We have also further learned it of him, in that in the same Chapter, speaking of the eating of his body, & drinking of his blood, he drew his hearers from a gross conceit of eating & drinking him by their bodily mouths, by using of the word believeth in stead of eateth and drinketh, ver. 40.47. and cap. 7.38. by mentioning unto them his ascension, john. 6.62. & lattly by saying unto them, It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, are spirit & life: ver. 63. This finally we have learned of him, saying, If any shall say unto you, Lo here is Christ, there is Christ, believe it not. Math. 24.23. & by his continuing at the table, when he first instituted and ministered it unto his Apostles, without alteration either of his place, or form. Mat. 26. Mar. 12. Luke. 22.1. Cor. 11. The Apostles & evangelists have also taught us to deny it, in that they teach us, that he visibly ascended into heaven, & that he shall so also come again, when he cometh from thence etc. Act. 1.11. especially seeing his coming to judgement is called his second coming, Heb, 9.28. and until the restitution of all things, it is said by Peter, the heavens must contain him. Act. 3.21. The evangelists in laying down unto us the story of his nativity, life & death, so proving unto us, that he was & is a true and perfect man, encourage us also (lest we should with the Marcionites, & other heretics deny the truth of his manhood) contantly to ●●●y your real presence; for the maintenance whereof, you are driven to fancy a number of things quite contrary to the nature & truth of his manhood. And lastly, in that reciting the words of the institution, they tell us, that Christ commanded that to be done in remembrance of him, Luke. 22.19. 1. Cor. 11.24. & there Paul saith (v. 26.) As often as ye shall eat this bread, & drink this cup, ye show the lords death till he come: which words plainly argu, that though the sacrament be both rightly ministress received, yet it inferreth not any such real presence, as you their imag●●.  
Now betwixt them & us we find infinite places, in writers of all ages, that teach us still to deny your real presence: but amongst many, mark these for example. Tertullian in his 4. book against Martion interpreteth these words. Hoc est corpus meum, thus, that is to say, This is a figure of my body. Augustine against Adamantus the Manichee, c. 12. writeth, that christ doubted not to say, This is my body, when he gave a sign of his body: & upon the 3. Ps. he saith, that Christ admitted judas to a banquet, where he commended a figure of his body to his disciples: & upon the 98. Ps. he saith, ye shall not eat this body that ye see, neither shall ye drink that blood, which they shall shed that crucify me: I have commended unto you a certain sacrament, it being spiritually understood will give you life. In his 3. book therefore of Christian doctrine he writeth thus, This saying of Christ, Except ye eat the flesh of the son of man etc. seemeth to command an heinous thing, & a wicked: therefore it is a figure, commanding us to be partakers of Christ's passion, keeping in our minds to our great profit & comfort, that his flesh was crucified & wounded for us. c. 16. he saith, It is a miserable slavery of the soul to take the signs for the things signified, in the same book, c. 5. And therefore in his 23. epistle, he telleth us, that the similitude betwixt the sign & the thing signified is the cause, why the one beareth the name of the other in sacraments: & in his 57 question upon Levitic. he giveth us this rule, The thing that signifieth, is wont to bear the name of the thing which it signifieth; as Paul said, The rock was Christ, & not, it signified Christ, but even as it had been indeed, which nevertheless was not Christ by substance, but by signification. So that his usual doctrine is, to teach us in this sacrament, to seek christ in heaven by faith, & thereby to make him present, which otherwise is absent, as you may read in his 50. tract upon john, & else where very often. And with Augustine the rest of the father's consent in this matter, & therefore nothing is more common with them, then to call the outward part in this sacrament a sign, figure, similitude, resemblance, or representation, as it appeareth in these places. Chrysostom in his 83. Homil: upon Mat. Hierom in his 2. book against jovinian, Ambr. in his 4. book of the sacraments, c. 5. Basil in his liturgy: Ephr: in his 4. book against the impugners of Christ's manhood by human reason. And Origen upon Leuit: hom: 7. teacheth us, that the letter of those words, Except ye eat the flesh of the son of man etc. killeth: & therefore he teacheth us there spiritually to understand them. Who upon these words of Christ gathereth, that no wicked man can eat the flesh of christ, upon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part, he granteth the wicked may eat, & that when it hath been eaten, in the end it is avoided into the place of easement, Hom: 15. upon Mat. Athanasius noteth, the christ made mention of his ascension. john 6. to withdraw them from corporal & fleshly understanding of his words; upon these words, whosoever speaketh a word against the son etc. But Chrys. goeth plainly to work & saith in his 11. Hom: upon Mat. that the very body of christ himself is not in the holy vessels, but the mystery & sacrament thereof is therein contained. And therefore in his 46. Hom. upon john, showeth us, the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing john 6. thereby warned us to take heed of carnal and fleshly understanding of his words: which is to understand them (saith he) simply: and in his 4. Homil: upon the 4. to the Corinth: he telleth us, that the body of Christ is the carrion, where the Eagles will be: he nameth eagles (saith he) to show, that who so will approach to his body, must mount aloft & have no dealing with the earth, nor be drawn downward, but must evermore fly up etc. For this is a table of Eagles (saith he) that fly on high, & not of jays, that creep beneath. Christ took bread which comforteth man's hart, that he might represent thereby his body & blood, saith Hier. upon the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism received the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacrament drink the similitude of christs blood, saith Ambrose in his 4 book, & 4, c. of the sacraments. Cyprian de unctione chrismatis, writeth thus, Christ in his last supper gave unto his Apostles bread & wine, which he called his body & blood but on the Cross he gave his very body to be wounded with the hands of the soldiers, that the Apostles might declare unto the world, how & in what manner, the bread may be the flesh & blood of Christ. And the manner strait way he declareth thus, that those things, which do signify, & those things which be signified by them, may be both called by one name. Fulgentius in his book to King Thrasimund hath these words, This cup or chalice is the new Testament, that is to say, doth signify the new Testament. Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainly writeth, that Christ honoured the signs and representations, which are seen, with the name of his body and blood, not changing their natures, but adding grace to nature: and yet more plainly in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus: the mystical signs after sanctification go not from their nature: for they tarry in their former substance, figure, and form. Yea even Gelasius a Pope, about the year 500 against Eutiches, is as plain, saying, in the Eucharist the substance and nature of bread and wine cease not. For the image and similitude of the body and blood is celebrated in those mysteries. And Bertram in his treatise of this matter, written in the time of Carolus calvus laboureth by many proofs & testimonies to show, that bread and wine remain still, and that we are here to follow Christ in a figure and mystery. And Bede upon Luke. 22. saith, because bread doth comfort man's heart, and wine doth make good blood in his body: therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christ's body, and the wine to Christ's blood. The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. book De sermonum proprietate. Emissenus de consecrat. Dist. 2. cap. Quia corpus; compareth the conversion in the Sacrament to the conversion in a man regenerated, which we all know is in quality, and not in substance. There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue, made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds' time; about the year of the Lord 996, being then (as some writ) Bishop of Canterbury, wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and blood of Christ, than manna, and the water of the rock was Christ: who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue, whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies: and in that which was to be read on Easter day, there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation, and your real presence. And since these times you know well enough we have had many from time to time (yea, more than you well like of) that have been as flat and direct against your kind of real presence, as we are now. This Master Foxes book of Acts and Monuments hath made evident to all the world. And it is famously known, that before your Lateran Council, under Innocent the 3. in the year 1215. it was not decreed to be as you now hold. It appeareth also by the last session of the council of Florence (which is not much above 140. years ago) that the Greek Church until then stood against your doctrine of transubstantiation, which is the ground of your real presence. And Tonstall (though otherwise a great man on your side) yet in his book of this sacrament, saith, perhaps it had been better to leave every man that would be curious concerning this matter, of the manner how Christ is present, to his own conjecture; as by his confession, before the council of Lateran, it was left at liberty. And john Duns, a friend of yours, upon the 4. book of the sentences saith, that the words might have been expounded more plainly, then by Transubstantiation, if it had pleased the Church. Gabriel Biell another great doctor, upon the canon of the mass in his 40. reading plainly confesseth, that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible, how the body of Christ is there, whither by Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation. Even so your great Bishop john Fisher writing against Luther's book of the captivity of Babylon, is enforced to confess, that he findeth not in Matthew, nor any where else in the scripture, any thing to prove, that there is thereby the real presence of Christ in your mass: nor that whensoever a Priest shall go about that matter, he maketh the bread & wine the body and blood of Christ: and so concludeth, that he thinketh, that every man understandeth, that the certainty of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospel, as it doth upon the use, tradition and custom of the Church. These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literal exposition of Christ's words, your new devise of transubstantiation, the only pillar and buttress of your real presence, and against your gross and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouths of all receivers good and bad, they may not be denied to be forcible against your real presence. For the cause thereof denied and taken away, the effect must cease: and if the consequent thereof, which is eating of Christ's precious body with the filthy mouths of unbelievers be absurd, the antecedent thereof must also be absurd.  
Howbeit, because you shall not say, that we are unwilling to yield you thoroughly an account, why we deny your real presence; understand you yet further, we are moved so to do, because your doctrine of transubstantiation (the only upholder thereof) and the doctrine itself (as you hold it) bringeth in, without all reason, such an interpretation and construction of the words of the instruction of this Sacrament, as taketh away the analogy between the signs, and the things whereof they are signs, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, in anihilating or otherwise abandoning the outward part; which scripture, and all antiquity necessarily require to continue, to the constitution of a Sacrament: as bringeth in many monstrous absurdities and needless miracles, contrary both to the true faith of Christ's manhood, and good manners; abhorring, both by nature and express warrant of the scripture, from eating and drinking of man's flesh and blood covered or uncovered: and as lastly inferreth an eating, & drinking of Christ by the mouths of the wicked and unbelievers, as well as of believers. Which eating of Christ with the bodily mouth, neither standeth with the doctrine of the word (which teacheth no such bodily commition of our bo●ies with Christ's, & therefore (seeing the sacraments are but confirmations of that which is taught in the word) cannot, or may not be taught herein) nor yet with the nature of the covenant & communion with christ, which is spiritual, & belongeth only to the faithful, & therefore only m●st be offered, sealed & ratified in this sacrament to them. And yet for al●●●s, I would not have you to imagine, that we deny all kind of real presence in this sacrament of Christ's body & blood. For we do most constantly teach with the ancient fathers, that in this sacrament though by means thereof there be a change in name, use, honour, and estimation in the outward elements; yet they remain still to be fed on with the mouth of the body, and that when by occasion of that which is done by the outward elements, the communicant calleth thankfully to remembrance christs death, and believeth that his body was as certainly broken for him ● his blood shed, as there he seethe the bread broken, wine poured out, and both delivered unto him; & that thereby his full & perfect salvation was absolutely wrought: them by this mouth of his soul, faith, he as certainly, though after a spiritual, & unspeakable manner, feedeth upon christs very broken body, & bloodshed, & groweth through the working of the spirit to a communion therewith, as by the mouth of his body he feedeth upon the outward elements, & so by the force of nature hath them united with his nature. And marvel not, that faith can & doth make the body broken and blood shed of Christ (which was now done 1500. years ago) yet lively & truly present. For it can make things spoken & taught in the word (though done never so long ago) & things absent to be present. And therefore when Paul wrote to the Galat: though christ long before had been crucified, and was ascended, yet by the means of the word & sacraments on the one side ministered amongst them, and of their faith on the other side, he saith, that Christ was even crucified amongst them. Gal. 3. wherein (as Chrysostom noteth upon that place) his meaning was, to show the strength of faith, which is able to see things though far away, & that by the eyes of faith, Christ's death was more clearly & perfectly seen, than it was of many, that were present at it, & saw all that was done. You seem in this your doctrine, and for the defence thereof, to be great advancers of God's omnipotency. But in Christ's time, I pray you tell me, whither they that believed that Christ could fulfil their desire though absent; or they that thought, he must be locally present, or else it would not be, had the greater faith in his omnipotency? I am sure you will say, the faith of the former was the stronger, and that they therein showed themselves better persuaded of Christ's almightiness, than the later, for the evidence of the matter will enforce you to confess thus much. Then to apply this to this present matter, the thing, that both you and we desire, is, truly to be fed with the body and blood of Christ to eternal life: whither then do we or you indeed believe his omnipotency better: we, that say and believe, that he can and doth feed us herewith, and unite us and himself together in the use of this sacrament, he tarrying still in heaven according to the Scriptures; or you, that imagine, that he cannot do it, unless he creep into your mouths, under the forms of bread and wine? Nay, whatsoever you talk of his omnipotency, this argueth, that your faith is too too weak therein, in that you must have such a real presence of him, as you imagine, or else you think it will not serve your turn. You will grant, that distance of place betwixt head and feet, betwixt man and wife, father and son breaketh not, nor hindereth the union, that nature hath made between them: what weakness of faith than were it, to think, that Christ our head, our husband, our father must be locally conjoined with us, or else the union betwixt him and us cannot be perfected? Assure yourselves, if being at this table, you will seek him by faith, where he is in heaven, and not, as you do, in the forms of bread and wine (whereunto only your own fancy hath tied him) by your faith you shall so reach, and apprehend him, and he by his spirit will so embrace you, that there was never head more surely by vienes, sinews, arteries and other helps of nature tied unto the inferior parts, nor husband to wife, nor father to son more fast and surely linked and knit, by the bonds of natural union, than he will unite himself unto you. For the defence of your real presence, and for the avoiding of many absurdities concerning Christ's manhood, that thereby you are fallen into, you talk much of the state of Christ's glorified body. But alas, do you not see, that whatsoever you talk thereof, is quite besides the purpose? For this is not a Sacrament of his glorified body, but of his crucified body: not of the conjunction of his body and blood, but of the separation of the one from the other: and therefore Christ in the institution, called not bread and wine simply his body and blood, but his body broken and blood shed, and gave the bread a sacrament of the one, and the wine, a part from the bread, a Sacrament of the other. Whereupon it is evident, that here we have to do with his passable body, with his body broken, & his blood shed upon the cross, and not with the state of his glorified and impassable body; and therefore unless the state of his passable body dying upon the cross, will stand with your real presence, it hath no place here. For by the very words of the institution (which you would seem otherwhiles most carefully and literally to urge) it is the body broken and the blood shed, that must here be really present: which otherwise then by faith, how can it be? seeing it is so long since his body was broken, and blood shed; and since it hath not been really at any time iterated, nor can be, for he died once for all, and so, that since he is not to die any more, as the scripture teacheth, Rom. 6. Which if you and your fellows would seriously mark, the naked and bare words of the institution, would drive you from your kind of real presence (which cannot be of the body broken, and bloodshed of Christ now) to embrace our real presence thereof, thorough faith and effectual remembrance, that they were once so used to our redemption, which is possible and effectual unto salvation. Thus much to answer your demand concerning this matter.    


The XII. Chapter.  
AS touching the rest, 
a What need then this long dispute, to disprove our calling, for want of it.  you have accustomed in your ministry, to use the imposition, or laying on of hands, and you say, that it is an ancient and honest Ceremony, 
* Exod. 29.  in this you say the truth. For as we read, of great antiquity this ceremony hath been used, as well in the old law, as in the law of grace. And unto that did redound the imposition of hands, laid upon the 
* levit. 4.  Weather that was brought to the immolation of the sacrifice of 
*b Num. 8. & 17  Moses law: to declare, that those that are ordained unto the service of God, and unto the ministry of the church, 
b Num. 17. There is nothing concerning imposition of hands.  aught to retain the like ceremony: and so the Israelites did lay their hands upon the Levites, & Moses likewise did lay his hands upon josua, when he was made a captain of the Israelites, who did represent the church of Christ. The Apostles have used the like, as we find, where we read, that 
* Act. 8.19. & 13  S. Peter & S. john did lay their hands upon the Christian people of Samaria, and S. Paul upon the Ephesians, and likewise the Apostles upon the seven Deacons, & upon S. Paul and Barnabas. 
*c Timot. 2.  S. Paul doth admonish Timothy, not to despise the grace that he had received by the imposition of hands, 
* The places of Paul to Timothy are clarkly quoted, but yet according to your manner, that is, not one of them right.  & that he should set forth the gift of God, that he had received with the imposition of the hands of S. Paul upon him. He doth likewise command him, not to use this imposition of hands without discretion, to the end that he do not communicate with the sin of another. Caluin according to these authorities in his institution book (Ar. 8. cap. 50.) of faith, doth command the like to be used in his church. It doth appear (saith he) that the Apostles have used no other ceremony in the vocation to the ministry, but this imposition of hands. Now I think, that they took this custom of the jews, who did present unto God by imposition of hands that, that they would bless & consecrate. After this sort jacob (Gen. 48.) when he would bless Ephraim & Manasses, he laid his hands upon their heads. Our saviour did the like upon the little children, when he did pray. Mat. 19 And as I think, it was all to one end or deined in the law: & therefore, the Apostles, by the imposition of hands, did signify, that they did offer unto God him, that they did receive into the ministry, although they did use it likewise with those, unto whom they did distribute the visible gifts of the holy Ghost. How so ever it be, they have used this solemnity as many times, as they did ordain any body to the ministry of the church, as we see by example, as well touching the pastors and doctors, as the Deacons. Now, although there be no special commandment, as touching the imposition of hands: yet notwithstanding, seeing that we read, that the Apostles did use it continually, that which they did use so diligently, aught to be unto us as a precept. And surely, it is a profitable thing, to set forth to the people the dignity of the ministery by such a Ceremony, & to make him know, that is thus or deined minister, that he appertaineth no more to himself, but that he is dedicated to the service of God & of his church. etc. 
d To what purpose is all this long discourse of imposition of hands, seeing we do use it. And it is notoriously known, that all these had imposition of hands, and had an outward ordinary calling according to the times & places when and wherein they lived.  Thus, seeing that Caluin doth confess the imposition of hands to be so necessary for the ministry of the church, & that it is approved, aswell by the law of nature, as by the law of Moses or of the Gospel: Answer us then, who was he, that laid his hands upon Caluin, to safe conduct the charge of his conscience? You will answer me, Zuinglius, or Oecolampadius, or the others of his time. And if by chance one would be so curious, as to pursue this demand, mounting a little higher: I mean, to know of whom these above named have received their blessing & imposition of hands, I think you will not name the Apostles, if you will not have every man to laugh at your folly: for there is none so simple, but doth know, that they died above. 1500. years agone. And seeing that your Patriarch hath made us so goodly an oratum, as touching this imposition of hands, affirming it to be necessary, both by the law of Nature, the law of Moses, and the law of Grace, how doth it come to pass, that Zuinglius hath not used it, to confirm his ministery.   

The XII. Chapter  
SEeing you know and confess that we allow & retain in our vocation this ceremony of imposition of hands, what needed you to have made so much ado thereabout? But having justified the use thereof by Caluins' testimony, and otherwise, you demand of whom Caluin Zuinglius & Oecolampadius had this imposition of hands? I answer, that not only these, but many other, whom god first stirred up in these later days to detect Antichrist, & so to bring him to consumption, of whom the rest that have followed in that course have descended, & had theirs, had the same vocation & succession, whereof you yourselves brag. For most of them were priests (as you call them) ordered by yourselves, & doctors of divinity allowed in their times by the universities, wherein they were brought up. But the same vocation, which you abused, our men have laboured to use well & to the vain succession of persons, wherewith you decked yourselves, they have added the succession of true doctrine, with you had corrupted. So that what good soever was in your vocation, ours had it also, & besides, since they have had confirmation of their ministry amongst themselves, and by the consent & approbation of the people amongst whom they have ministered.    


The XIII. Chapter.  
IF that the good doctor 
* Cip. 1. epist. c. 6.  S. Cyprian had been in these our days, might he not well have said against your scholars, that which he did write against 
a Cyprian calls him that he speaks against Novatianus, who was a Roman, and the disciple of Novatus of Africa. That Novatus & Novatianus were two several persons, it appears in Cyprian lib. 2. ep st. 8. &. 9  Novatus? there needed no other, but instead of Novatus to put in calvinus or Zuinglius; & nomine mutato, de vobis fabula narrabitur. Seeing that the said S. Cyprian doth hold & affirm, that Novatus ought to be accounted as no Bishop, because he succeeded no body, but rather that he did make himself a Bishop, 
b These words you add, for they are not in Cyprian.  without any imposition of hands. Then to what purpose,, I pray you, are ye of the opinion, that 
c This is but your slader & saying: for both these were and so are we able to prove that they had sufficient warrant for their calling.  Caluin & Zuinglius are such faithful ministers, considering that they are as far from proving the confirmation of their ministry, as ever was Novatus. You will answer me, that you have no need of the imposition of hands of the Papists, superstitious Idolaters & infidels. But this maketh your cause never the better: for if you are so scrupulous by nature, that it goeth against your consciences to come to kneel to our Bishops, you should (I say in tunes past) have required your ancient ministers to have given you a warrant for the confirmation of your estate, when one doth demand of you, since when your Religion began you are not content, to claim the beginning from the Apostles, but rather, stepping hardly forward, ye are not content to stay at David or Abraham, but you must needs fetch it from Abel, 
d Yea even from that doctrine, that God taught Adam and Eve in Paradise, though it grieve you.  yea, from Adam. And if one should spur you forward, you would go, I know not whether. Then seeing that your church is so ancient, and that it hath endured till our days (if we will believe you) it is not like to be true, that it hath been destitute altogether of ministers: for although it be so, that God did greatly afflict the Israelites with the captivity of Babylon, yet did he never leave them without comfort of good doctors, such as Daniel, Ezechias, 
e Whence prove you, that they had there a pro●●er than named Abdias? Or that there was then any Prop. ●●named Ez●chias: but it may be you would have said Ezechiel.  Abdias, and many others: Even so you, that think in your own heads, to be the people of God, I cannot think (if it be so) he would so have given you over, as to want ministers to comfort you in your afflictions, and to ordain your ministery, by the in position of hands: 
f These 2. whiles they were yours, and so others, as Luther, Lucer, Capito, Carolstadius, Oecolampadius and the rest, had calling either to be priests, or to be ordered by your own Bishops, or at least to be doctors of Divinity by the university, wherein they were brought up. And after these two were ours, the one had an ordinary calling by the presbytery, magistrate and people of Genevae the other of Zurich, and so had the rest in the places where they taught.  What stays you, that you do not go to them, seeing that you have nothing to do with ours? And if you say, that you have done so, do us so much pleasure, as to let us hear their nanes, & in what time they did flourish, or otherwise you may pardon us, if we give no credit to your feigned imaginations.   

The XIII. Chapter.  
YOU boldly add unto Cyprians words, these words, without any imposition of hands, for neither where the other words of his with you recite are, nor yet anywhere in that epistle doth he once mention the ceremony of imposition of hands. Neither can Cyprians saying against Novatianus (whom you call wrongfully and ignorantly Novatus) truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius, seeing they had (as I have read) the ordinary calling & vocation of the times, wherein they lived even from yourselves. For as for Caluin, his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedral church, and a curateship in a town hard by, of a Bishop of yours, where he was borne, which would not have been given him, unless he had been within orders, I think. And Zwinglius, it is well known, was a Canon in the cathedral church of Zurich, 2. or 3. years there living & preaching, before he was ours. And so I read the other preached also in his cure, before he was ours: whereby it should seem, that the one had imposition of hands to holy orders (as you term them) of some Bishop of France, and the other of some Bishop likewise of Germany. Now after, when as by force of the truth, they grew to be of our Religion, & so came out of Babylon to us, they both were according to the order of those churches where they served, called orderly to the ministry of the Gospel, where also they both succeeded others, that went before them. Neither of which could Novatianus truly allege for himself, and therefore Cyprian saith, that he was neither in the church nor Bishop. But seeing we account our church so ancient, as that when we are asked, when our Religion began, we will say, it hath been even from Adam, & also that ever since it hath endured, and continued; you say, it is not likely that it hath at any time been altogether destitute of ministers. For though God did afflict the Israelites for their sins with the captivity of Babylon, yet he did never leave them without comfort of good doctors, as Daniel, Ezechiel, Abdias, and others: & therefore seeing we have nothing to do with yours, we either have, or should have sought them out, & have taken imposition of hands of them, which if we have done, you wish us to tell you their names, when and where they flourished. To answer you indeed for the substance of our Religion, we say it is the same with God himself first taught Adam in paradise. For first, he was taught to serve God, not according to his own will, but according to the law that God gave him. Secondly, he being found a transgressor of that holy will of God, after he was brought to see his sin, & the danger thereof, he is sent for recovery by God's promise, only to the promised seed: and then is he taught, how to live in his vocation: wherein lieth the sum of that Religion, which we now teach and preach. For first, we teach men, how to serve God according to his own revealed will, & not according to their own fancy, as you do. Secondly, finding men many ways to decline from this rule, we labour to make them see their sins, and the danger thereof, which when we have done, we send them only to jesus Christ for help and comfort. In both with you also offend; first, whiles you keep men from seeing the multitude and grievousness of their sins, by extenuating the power of original sin, by making man believe, that the fulfilling of the law is now possible unto him, that many sins of their own nature, for their littleness are venial: and that the first motions of sin arising from the corruption of our own hearts not consented unto are no sin: and then you go from this most ancient order of God, in that you send men for their recovery not only to jesus Christ, but to their own free-will, merits and satisfaction, & to a number of things very trifling and ridiculous: by use and doing whereof, you would persuade them, they shall purchase to themselves remission of their sins. In the 3. point also, we follow the pattern of our heavenly father, calling upon every man according to his calling, to get his living in an honest vocation, with the sweat of his brows; and showing woman, that in lawful wedlock (if by nature or otherwise she have not the gift of continency) though to her pain & sorrow, she is for the increasing of God's kingdom, and the common weal, wherein she liveth, to conceive, and bear children; whereas you draw both the one and the other herefrom, into Hermitages, Cloisters, and Nunneries, there to live an idle life, out of all vocation profitable to the Church, or common weal. And we are persuaded, that this Religion, and consequently a Church to hold and embrace it hath ever since unto these days continued. And we grant you also, that though God for the sins of his people do afflict his Church divers times, and that grievously; as he did the Isralites with the 70. years captivity: yet than he doth not leave them without teachers to comfort them, and therefore in all ages and times do constantly believe in one place or other, that this our Religion and Church hath had some such. Yet you must take this with you, that in such times of the affliction of the Church the ordinary state of the ministry thereof hath often failed. For you have heard Azariah the prophet tel king Asa, in respect of such times as were before his time, that Israel a long season had been without the true God, without prophet to teach, and without law, 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hosea you may read prophesied, that the children of Israel shall remain many days without a King, without a Prince, without an offering, without an image, without an Ephod, and without Teraphim: by which words, the Prophet plainly foreshoweth, an interruption should be of their outward ordinary visible ministry. And even in respect of the time that you mention, it appeareth in the 2. of the Im●●●ntat. that the like was fulfilled in the Church, in respect of that time of their captivity in Babylon. For there jeremy lamenting the state of the Church then, saith, The Lord hath caused the feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his wrath, the King and the Priests, the Lord hath forsaken his altar, & hath abhorred his sanctuary. And when those prophecies of the flourishing of Antichrist: 2. Thes. 2. and Revel: 17. and that of the Churches being drived into the wilderness, and there remaining for a time, revel. 12. should be fulfilled, who seethe not, that it is no strange thing, but a thing plainly foreshowed, should be, that neither the church herself nor her teachers should be very visible and apparent. And therefore speaking of those times, when indeed those prophecies were verified, as you do, you do our church and her ministers great & double wrong: first, in thus chase them into the wilderness, there to save themselves from your fury: and then, yet in exacting at our hands the names of them, whom God by thus hiding of them, preserved to continue his church. And yet (as I have showed you before cap. 4.) in the mercy of God, when your Antichristian Synagogue flourished most, in Bohemia, & other places, the Christians called Waldenses, were many, and has divers assemblies, schools, churches and ministers. Why then (say you) have you not, or do you not, run to them, that by them you may have your ministers ordained or confirmed, & if you have, tell us their names, that did it. I answer you, we have thought it needles, seeing (as I have showed) otherwise both our former & later ministers, nearer home had both ordination, & confirmation, that well enough served their turns. Besides, I am sure you cannot be ignorant, but it hath been an ordinary thing with God, when the ordinary ministers of the church, & consequently the outward face & countenance thereof hath been corrupted, & gone from the truth, & ways of the lord, to raise extraordinarily prophets and others to seek & procure the reformation thereof, as it appeareth by raising up from time to time Prophets amongst the Israelites, in the ruins and corruptions of his church, who should have had wrong offered, if they should not have been received as the Lords ministers, until either they could get ordinary admission of the Prelates then, to reform whose corruptions they were sent, or until they could show the names of some other prophets, that had ordinarily succeeded others, & also ordained them. Which is the very case of the Lords faithful ministers, whom he hath used first in any nation without the ordinary calling of the days immediately going before, to detect & lay open the horrible corruptions thrust upon the Church by the papacy. For they found, that the word of God was concealed & hid from the people, & that instead thereof, they were fed with the inventions and traditions of men; y the honour that was due to God alone was turned unto men & unto images; that the blood of Christ was ineffect trodden underfoot, in that so many by ways were sought to attain to heaven by, besides Christ: that the sacrament of his body & blood was turned into gross Idolatry, & the use quite perverted. To be short, they found all the holy scripture profaned & poisoned which the Pope's glosses, & false interpretations. These things therefore being thus, & the lord reveling unto them his truth, because the time was come, that Antichrist must be detected, the lord gave unto them the spirit of courage and boldness, first to notify these corruptions to the Prelates of your church, and to crave at their hands the reformation thereof: but finding that that would not be, because sathan will not be against himself. Ma. 12. what were they to do else, but according to that the God gave them, and the places they had in universities & in the church, to proceed to call the people yet from those errors to the truth. When fire shall take hold of a city, or the enemy scale the wall in the night, if the lest burgess shall give an alarun, yea if it be but a stranger (the watchman sleeping that should give warning) no man would stand trifling in demanding by what title he did it, but straight he will run to the water and to the walls, and lay to his hands to prevent the mischief, & thank him that gave the warning. And yet when the men, we speak of, give notice of a greater danger, though it be as necessary to listen unto them, & to be warned by them, as the salvation of men's souls is: yet they cannot find this wisdom and thankfulness in men. It should seem by your standing thus precisely upon the necessity of visible succession, & ordinary imposition of hands in them, the god shall send to teach men, or else they may not be heard: that either you have not red, or else that you greatly dissemble your knowledge, that God hath used the ministry of divers people, that have wanted those, to convert nations, to lay the foundation of churches, & to do very much good. For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hist. 1. book, and c. 10. & Theodoret in his 1. book, c. 23. report, that a captive maiden did first kindle the light of the Gospel amongst the Iberians: who being the means first to convert the Queen, the Queen converted the King, & he without any orders (as you call them) taught his people the Christian faith & so begun the church there. It is also written by Ruff. lib. 1●. c. 9 by Theodoret, in the 22. c. of his said book, by Nicep in his 8. book, c. 35, that AEdesius and Frumentius brought thither being ●●yes, by Meropius a philosopher, and there taken and preserved alive when he and the rest of his company were slain, growing after into good credit and authority there, were the first means of the sowing of the seed of the Gospel amongst the Barbarians in the further India, to the profession and exercises whereof, especially Frumentius, and that not only after that by Athanasius he was ordained there bishop, but before ever by any he was ordained either minister or bishop, was a notable & effectual means both to excite merchants that came thither, and to draw the people of that country itself. Moreover Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history reporteth, in his sixth book and 19 Chapter, that Origen taught publicly before he had ordination, certain bishops being present: which when Demetrius Alexandrinus objected as a fault, to Alexander bishop of Jerusalem, and to Theoclistus bishop of Caesarea, they defended themselves by alleging divers such famous examples, as namely of Euelpis, Paulinus and Theodorus, which in like sort had preached without the ordinary ordination. Yea, read Nicephorus 2 book and 25. Chapter, and he will tell you, that under Constantius, Antony the eremite taught at Alexandria, and that under Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flavianus & julianus being then but monks (who in those days were not reckoned amongst Clerks at all, for unto Gregory's time they were not accounted Clerks) did publicly preach and confute heretics. And yet these examples I allege not, that I would be author to any, when an ordinary calling may be had, to despise that, and to take upon them that function of the Ministry without that lawful ordinary calling: for that were to disturb the peace of the Church, and to open a gap to much disorder and inconvenience: but to this end, to make it appear, that the Church of God in former ancient times, hath not so precisely and curiously stood upon these points, of visible succession and ordination, for the justifying of one's preaching the Gospel at all times, and in all places, as you do. For (doubtless) there have been times and yet may be, as after that great apostasy spoken of 2. Thes. 2. & in other great ruins of the Church, when it hath and may please the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this work, without either immediate, local or personal succession going before; who (as long as they preach but the truth, and otherwise the times be so corrupt, that of them that have authority ordinarily to call men to that business, such rather should be shut out generally, then let into the ministry) are to be received, heard, and listened unto, as such whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himself.    


The XIIII. Chapter.  
CAluin doth allege to us, that the Apostles do say, that no body ought to take upon him the honour of the high priesthood, except he be called to it as Aaron was, meaning by that to conclude, that of our own authority we have usurped the dignity of Priesthood. 
a And ●et to no purpose.  We have answered him at large of our vocation, by the succession of Pastors joined with the imposition of hands. I do demand of him, or of his, if they can make any true answer to the like objection. You do lay to our charge the all lives of our Popes and Bishops, and the naughtiness that you pretend to find in our Preachers: but all those invectives serve to no other purpose, but to show how you keep 
b Nay you shall have the bell, both for that, & for profane iering & scoffing.  a learned school of railing, the which pre-eminence we do yield to you without any debate or process, for ye may attribute that unto yourselves as your own by right, instead of the imposition of hands, which ye want. But in one thing to my judgement you are greatly overseen, and that is this: 
c When you observe this law yourselves, we will learn of you.  Why do ye not fill both sides of your book, in the one, you set forth at large without omitting any point of their ill doings, all the naughty lives of our Pastors and Bishops: but the other sides of the leaves are empty; you should have written on them the holy lives of your Ministers, succeeding one after an other this thousand and five hundred years. When the Pope's Bonifacius & Gregorius did govern ill their Seats at Rome, 
d I have sufficiently answered this, cap. 4.  which were the good and holy ministers that did their duty at Geneva? When our Doctors did preach against God in times past, in what part or under what sign were your Ministers lodged, that did then preach the pure word of the Lord? 
e Reasoned like yourselves, as though the Apostles never lawfully hid themselves, from the fury of the persecutors.  if they did hide themselves, they did not follow the pure word of the Lord, the which you say is necessary to know the true & faithful believers. For Christ doth say, Mat. 10. that he that shall deny him before men, him will he deny before his father in heaven. And S. Paul doth say: Ro. 10. 
f And so have ours all ways in due time and place, though to the loss of thousands of their lives, done.  that with the hart one doth believe to justice, & with the mouth one must confess to salvation. 
g This is but your cuckoos song, containing neither truth, nor honesty.  But to say the truth, your religion was not then found out, & the Grandfathers, & great Grandfathers of Caluin had never dreamt of the heresies, that now their reformed child hath set so newly abroach. And therefore think it not strange, if that those people that are not light headed, send you to preach in new found lands, as one that hath here at home, given manifestly judgement against himself, 
h Are you not ashamed to lie so impudently, and to reason so foolishly?  confessing, as we have alleged above, that the Church of God hath used the imposition of hands, yours hath not done so: and therefore it doth follow, that it is not of God, & that, that doth follow consequently, is, that it is of the devil. For we know, that you allow 
i Neither would you, but that your belly is your God, and that you mind earthly things: unto which purposes that doctrine serveth you fitly.  no purgatory, I mean, no mean between them both.   

The XIIII. Chapter.  
HOw you have answered Caluin, and proved your vocation to be of God, by that which now the reader hath heard both parts say, let him judge. Our answer to the like demand I have given you Chap. 9 when you first called for it. But having demanded this now again of us, instead of pursuing your demand (as one that had straight forgotten what you said) you are in hand again with our saying to your charge, your pope's & bishop's ill lives, with twice or thrice you were in hand withal before, where you have your full answer. Herein (you say) in railing you give us the pre-eminence: but you do so, but in words; for indeed & truth (as all your late books, fraught with nothing more, than this kind of Rhetoric, to bring the servants of God unjustly into hatred, do prove) none can go beyond you herein. And as for that which we say of your Popes & bishops, your own storie-writers, and manifest experience do justify to be true, & therefore cannot justly be counted railing. But you find fault with us, that having written the lewd lives of your bishops & Popes on the one side of the leaf, we set not down on the other side in the mean time the succession of those good ones, that we had. This law you nether have, nor can always observe yourself. For though you have had many good Popes & bishops, yet a great while your good ones have been as hard to find as coal-black swans. And yet you please yourself, and your friends, that take pleasure in your giving, & scoffing, in ask us, when your Popes behaved themselves ill at Rome, who were the holy doctors at Geneva, & when your doctors preached against God, under what sign our ministers lodged? all this kind of Rhetoric of yours is grounded upon a false principle, namely, that the Church and ministers thereof have been, & always must be so visible, as that in all time's demonstration may be made thereof, contrary to these often alleged prophecies, 2. Thess. 2. Reu. 12. & 17. And the thing that deceiveth you, & nourisheth in you this error is, that you expound the places of scripture, which are uttered concerning the continuance & spiritual beauty of the church of the elect, the true heavenly Jerusalem & spouse of Christ: as spoken of the continuance of particular Churches, or of the outward order & state of the Church militant only: and that you either wilfully, or otherwise cannot distinguish, betwixt the being and continuing of the Church and her pastors, and the manner of their being and continuing; and so you construe those places, that prove her being, and their continuing, as though therupon followed your manner of visible and apparent being also, as though there were no being or continuing of the Church: but in your manner. Whereas in Israel in Ahab's time, you have heard, both the Church and ministers thereof there continued, in that, even in that kingdom Obadiah had hid 100 prophets, and God had reserved unto himself 7000. that had not bowed their knees to Baal, & yet not in your manner. For Eliah was not able to make such demonstration thereof, who they were, and where they were, as you require of us, for he thought himself alone. 1. King. 18. & 19  
O but you, very like a divine, prove out of Mat. 10. & Ro. 10. because Christ hath said, him that denieth me before men, will I deny before my heavenly father: and Paul requireth aswell confession with the mouth to salvation, as belief with the hart to justification; that therefore they could not be faithful believers, because they did hide themselves. As though every one were a denier of Christ, that hideth himself from the fury of the persecutor? Or as though none confess with their mouth to salvation, that so hide themselves? What think you then of the 100 prophets before named? And of Eliah himself, who (as it appeareth in those places) hide themselves from Ahab and jesebels fury? Have you forgotten, that the same Christ saith in the same Chap: to his Apostles, If they persecute you in one City, fly to another? And that the same Paul himself did sundry times by hiding himself from the hands of his persecutors, save his life? As you may read Act. 17. and elsewhere. Who though he were assured in a vision by revelation from God, that with safety of life he should come to testify of Christ and his Gospel at Rome, yet refused not all good and lawful means to have himself conveyed away, and so to escape the hands of his bloody persecutors, the jews; which had solemnly bound themselves with an oath, that they would neither eat nor drink, till they had killed him. Act. 23.11.12. Your divinity is not so simple, I think, but that you understand, that as long as a Christian carrieth that mind and purpose, that wheresoever he is, he will be ready boldly to yield a sound confession of his faith, and therefore when he is called thereunto, and justly occasioned, is ready to perform that purpose of his, and doth it indeed; that man cannot be said to deny Christ, or not to confess him with his mouth, though by flying and hiding himself, as long as he may lawfully, he seek to keep himself for the further good of God's Church, out of the hands of his persecutors. And therefore you were much to blame by thus wresting of these places of Scriptures to seek to abuse your Reader.  
But our Religion (you say) was not found out then, and Caluins great grandfather had not once dreamt of his Religion: and therefore no marvel, though they could not be found, that were the ministers of our Church and Religion: and no marvel, that they that are not light headed, send us to preach in new found lands etc. This in effect you have often said, and (if that will serve) you will not stick with us to say it in every Chapter. But this being indeed the question, whereupon the determination of the whole controversy betwixt you and us dependeth, namely, whither our Religion be not the true ancient Religion, taught by Christ and his Apostles: for you to pass it over thus with bare words, and never to go about sound to prove, that it is not, is but too too childish and ridiculous. Well may you in your own conceit, and in the opinion of the simple silly reader, seem herein to have done a great act, but in the judgement of any of mean wit & capacity, howsoever you may be counted a wordy man, yet you shall never be accounted a worthy champion, to fight in this greatest question, only with bare words.    


The XV. Chapter.  
YOU will say to me, that this argument ought to take place in an ordinary commission, but 
a Though in such times & estates of the Church, wherein Luther and some others lived, there were just occasion why God should stir up men extraordinarily to serve him, yet you know well enough, that both he and others, whose calling you most call in question, were not without an ordinary outward calling of men.  yours is extraordinary, as that was of the Prophets of the old Testament, whom God did send to correct the Scribes and Pharises: and that even so God hath inspired you and others, of your sect to the like effect, that is to say, to correct the superstitious lives and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters: and by this, as far as I can see, ye are commissaries of God in his behalf: & ye may say well with S. Paul (although ye have not been ravished unto the third heaven) 
* Gal. 1.  that ye are not sent by man or of man, but by the authority of our Saviour Christ. But what would you say, if we should speak against it, as a number do, and that to revenge this quarrel, we should write against your commission, we might well aid ourselves with a syllogism of our Saviour Christ, if we would come to plead the matter, which is this: 
c* This argument, the contrariety betwixt your religion & Christ's, being as it is, proves neither your Church nor Priests to be of God.  He that is of God, doth obey 
*b Joh. 6.  
b john the eight you would have said.  the word of God: but you do not obey the word of God; therefore ye are not of God. I know that you will deny the Minor, and therefore it doth appertain to us to prove it. Christ doth say: 
* Mat. 22.  
a In this particular respect, witness your Pope's usurping over Christian Princes, none were ever more ●uil●y in denying to Cesar that which is Caesar's, than you.  Give unto Cesar that, that appertaineth to Cesar: and to God that, that appertaineth to God. That is to say, to speak familierlie, give Geneva unto his Lord, and the Bishopric unto his Bishop. Now, you do not obey this commandment, & therefore, as one that doth not appertain unto God, you have provided yourself a new master. And because we would not have some to think, that we that are not of the country do bear false witness against you, or, that we do it without having any interest unto the matter: 
b Nay the evidence of the matter showeth, that your own savage dealings, contrary to the public edicts of that country, hath caused the st●rs there: and now of late you have revived them, by open treason and rebellion.  I am sure, that all the world doth know, that ye have set all France in as ill an estate, as ye have done the Dukedom of Savoy: In that that appertaineth to the Church, is there any Bishopric or Diocese left, where ye have not sought with all your power to preach your holy doctrine? where have ye forgotten that, that Saint Paul doth say, which is: 
* Rom. 10.  how shall they preach if they are not sent? What right have you, to come to reap other men's corn? Do not you remember that, that Tertullian doth write against your elders, that did persecute the catholic Church, against whom he saith in his 
c This Tertullian would surely have said of you, ● he had lived in these days.  book de praescriptione haereticorum: What are ye, and from whence do ye come? By what right, O Marcian, dost thou cut down my wood? Why dost thou, O Appelles, remove my lands? And a little after he sayeth: the place is mine, I have been thus long time in possession, and before thee I have good title and evidence, to maintain my right, of those, to whom it did appertain which left it me by inheritance from the Apostles. etc. Our church of France, which is one of the principal members of all the Catholic Church, might with good cause say unto you the like. And I pray, what would you answer? You cannot deny, but that 
d If this were true, as it is false that your religion were a thousand years old, yet being no elder, it is too young by five hundredth years at the least, to be the true religion.  above a thousand years before ye were borne, that the faith in which ye were baptised, and the which you have falsely denied, was planted, I do not say, in this only kingdom of France, but over all Christendom. If you pretend any right to the contrary, show the reason of your possession by the evidence of the 
e This we can, & have often done already.  ancient doctors, and after come to demand it, as I have said before: I mean, that you should yield the ecclesiastical government, which you have usurped in many places, with too great liberty of conscience, and licence to do evil, which is the very death of the soul, 
f S. Augustine's words are these, quae est pejor mors anima, quam libertas erro●is?  as Saint Austin doth say. Epist. 166. And after that ye have restored France to his old estate, than there will be more appearance of the matter, that ye are sent to preach the true word of God, then there is now. But is this estate that ye are, although that God had given you commission (the which he never thought) he would have called it back, because of your noble acts. Theodosius and 
g Areadius I think you meant.  Arcades, which in old time were Emperors of Rome (L. si quis in tantam. cod. unde vi.) did establish or make all Edict, that if the true owner or lord of a thing should use any force, or to seek by the way of violence (without staying for the sentence of the judge) 
h Even thus you, and your predecessors got possession of your places, & therefore by this law, you have but right to be thrust out, as you have been.  to get possession of his own from another man, yea, although the other had no right to it, he should not only lose the possession, but likewise the property: but if it were found, that he that did enter by force, had no right to the Manor, he should not only be deprived of it, but moreover he should be condemned to give as much more of his own unto him, against whom he had used the force, as the thing was valued at, that he sought to usurp. If one should call you, my masters the new reformed Gospelers, to such a reckoning, ye might well pack up your pipes, and transport your fidelie into another country, for you should have no other remedy, but to run away with the goods, and preach poverty.   

The XV. Chapter.  
WHat argument you speak of, it is hard to tell seeing as yet (for any thing that I can perceive) you uttered nothing since you entered into this matter, to call us to an account of our vocation, worthy the name of an argument. Indeed that which loosely you have uttered here and there against it, of the necessity of succession of persons, and of imposition of hands (as you imagine) we must say indeed, take place in an ordinary calling, and not always in an extraordinary. But by your speech it should seem, you had relation to some thing, which you took to be an argument, set down in the last Chapter before this; where in effect you have said nothing, but only in your scoffing manner found fault with us, because in setting down the ill lives of your prelate's, on the one side of the leaf, we set not down on the other side the good lives than of our own: which how it should seem to contain an argument, either against ordinary, or extraordinary vocation, I see not. For neither they that are called the one way or the other; are always bound to observe that order. But to let your pitiful logic go, and to pass over your scoffing in calling us Gods Commissaries not worthy an answer, let us see, if you have hit of any better argument here to prove our ministers not to have been extraordinarily by God stirred, up to correct the superstitious lives, and doctrine of the papists Idolaters (as you say, we term them) then as yet you have brought to disprove their ordinary calling. If we would come to plead this matter with you (you say) you would aid yourselves herein against us with a Syllogism of Christ, john. 8. which is this. He that is of God doth obey the word of God: but you do not obey the word of God, therefore ye are not of God. You suppose that we will deny your minor, and therefore in that God commandeth Matthew. 22. to give unto Cesar, that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is Gods: and our ministers do neither of these, but the contrary, in detaining Geneva from the Duke of Savoy, and in being the causes of the stirs in France, and spoiling your bishops and Priests of their livings, you think that proveth so against them, that the conclusion must needs follow. Do you think in earnest, that whosoever can be proved in any one thing to disobey God, straight thereupon it followeth, that his commission or calling is not of God? What man ever was there either ordinarily or extraordinarily called to any office (except the man Christ jesus) but in some one thing or other, at one time or other, one way or other he did not obey God? Seeing that all men are sinners, and there is not one that can truly say, his heart and hands have always been free from sin, and transgression of the law of God. Take Christ's words in this sense, and so none, no not he amongst you, that is fullest of his works of Supererogation shall ever escape this conclusion. If you had viewed the text, you should have perceived, that Christ useth that speech against the Scribes and Pharises, who blasphemed the doctrine of the Messiah, and would abide neither to hear, nor to obey it, and not generally against all that in any thing are found at any time disobedient to God of ignorance, or infirmity. And yet though he had meant so, and it were granted, that every man in that he offendeth, or sinneth, is not therein of God: yet thereupon it followeth not, that the same man therefore cannot be a man, that hath his commission or calling of God. David was not of God, in that he committed adultery with Bershebah, and murdered Urias, yet even then he had a commission of God, and a calling to be King over his people. And therefore though you could prove these things to be true that you charge our ministers withal, and though also it were granted, that therein they have done ill: yet thereupon necessarily it doth not follow, that therefore they were not extraordinarily stirred up by God, to correct your sins, and abominations, For jehu, whom God undoubtedly stirred up to chastise the house of Ahab, and to correct the Idolatrous priests of Baal, even with an extraordinary zeal 2. King. 9 & 10. yet he departed not from the sins of jeroboam, the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin, as there it appeareth. Again, it is strange that you should lay these as faults, yea as such faults to our ministers charge, as that therefore they cannot be sent of God, when as not only it is a received, taught & printed doctrine amongst you in the 5. Chapter of D. Allines defence of catholics, but also such as hath from time to time been, and yet is most monstrously practised even amongst your Popes (which pretend to have the best, highest, and largest commission from God of all other ministers) not only that they may detain dukedoms from the right owners, but also depose Princes, and Emperors, translate their kingdoms and crowns to whom they please, and make war against them both by foreigners, and their own subjects, for the advancement of their religion, when and how it pleaseth them. For this your doctrine and practise considered, if your argument for the causes by you alleged (supposing that they were true) have any force against our ministers, it hath ten times as much force against yours, whose chiefest mean of late to establish and continue your kingdom, hath been (as the stories of all countries for this 600. or 700. years at the least do make it most manifest) by force and subtlety to bend and frame Kings and their kingdoms, either to be at your devotion, or else to make a spoil of them, and their kingdoms for yourselves and your friends. If therefore there had been either shame or common discretion in you, you would never have used this argument against us, which maketh more strongly against yourselves.  
But in deed and truth, the things, that you ground your argument upon against us, are partly untrue, and partly maliciously wrested only against our ministers. For never shall any of you be able to prove, that our ministers either are the authors of any wrong to the Duke of Savoy, or that either they or their followers were the cause of the civil wars and troubles in France. If the Duke of Savoy have any such right to Geneva, as you pretend, and that it be withholden from him, it being a civil quarrel betwixt him and the states civil of those parts, why should it be laid to the charge of the ministers, who you cannot prove have had any intermeddling therein? And as for the troubles in France, it appeareth by the stories thereof, that they have proceeded first from your own side, and that the doings of the protestant Princes there, have oftentimes been justified, even by the Kings own edicts, and proclamations to have been done in all loyalty: and that their wars have been but defensive against the oppressions offered them (contrary both to the ancient laws, and present edicts of the Land) by certain ambitious persons, and not offensive either to the King's person, or dignity. And as for your Bishops and Priests (of whose being driven from their livings by our men, you complain so much) in some sort I confess, thorough their occasion indeed, they have been dispossessed thereof, but that seditiously or tumultuously, by force they have been driven there from by them, we utterly deny. For in most places, they have been dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation, and consideration of the badness of their titles thereunto, in solemn and lawful assemblies of the estates of the countries, by the lawful authority of the same estates: as namely here with us, in England, in Scotland, and in other kingdoms, where the Gospel is received and established by public authority: and by the same authority orderly our men (whose right thereunto in those assemblies and parliaments have been found to be the better) have been put into possession thereof. And in other places, your Bishops and Priests, as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospel, when, will they, nill they, they saw it would take place in their territories, forsook their places, and left them to those that had more right thereunto, as for example, they did in Geneva, when the Gospel was first established there. And no marvel, though upon the bare preaching of God's truth, and the entertainment thereof, many of your proud Bishops, and superstitious Priests can stand no longer in their places. For when the Ark of God came in presence, Dagon could stand no longer, though his friends set him up again never so often; yea the more they strove, to have him stand, the more dangerous fall got he, as you may read, 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be le●ted, but Christ's saying will take place, and be verified one time or other, Every plant, that my heavenly father hath not planted, shall be plucked up by the roots, Matth. 15.13. whereupon it cometh indeed, that the proud prelate's, of your Antichristian Hierarchy, having gotten unto themselves titles and offices, through the ambitious and fond devise of men's heads, which God never allowed to be for his house, must needs (when God meaneth to reform his house, and to establish his own orders therein) avaunt their rooms, and leave their livings, for the Lords true officers, and allowed servants indeed. Blame therefore the badness of your foundation and title, for losing of your livings, and nothing else.  
You bid us show our evidence, that our right to them is better than yours, out of the ancient doctors. In the mean time you apply tertullian's words, in his book of Prescription against heretics against us, and that of Paul, How shall they preach, unless they be sent? Romans. 10. I answer you: not only out of the ancient doctors, but out of the Canonical Scriptures also, our ministers long ago have made evident demonstration unto the Princes and estates, that have driven you out of possession, and put them in, that their title to your livings was good, and yours stark nought; in that thereby they proved unto them, their religion to be ancient, sound, and apostolic, and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stamp: though you (according to your manner) say we cannot deny, but that your religion was planted throughout Christendom 1000 years, before we were borne: which you shall never be able to prove true: for we most constantly deny, both that antiquity, and universality of it. And whensoever you will, we are ready again by the same Scriptures, and Doctors, to prove our right by the same argument to be good and sound, and yours to be of no force: come to the trial of it, when, and as oft as you will. And therefore, seeing it is a thing most evident, that the reason why either you or we should pretend any right to these, or any other livings of the Church, is, that we feed the Church with wholesome and sound doctrine; we having oft proved ours so to be, by the grounds aforesaid, and you being never able to do the like for yours, both Paul's saying, and tertullian's must rather take place against you, than us. For I trust you will confess, that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach, but those that preach the truth; and questionless Tertullian useth those words of his (as by the words themselves, as they are set down by you, it is evident) not against those, that were able to prove their doctrine sound by the Apostles writings, but against fantastical heretics, such as had taught, and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures, devised upon their own heads. Against whom he being to prescribe, both by the Scriptures, and by the sound testimony of those, that succeeded the Apostles until his time, he might lawfully and to good purpose say, what are ye, and from whence do you come etc. And truly, when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in tertullian's time, both in respect of doctrine and government: and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastors and teachers then, and the agreement that their doctrine had with the written word, and then therewith on the other side, compareth the more than princely prelacy and Hierarchy, that hath been these many years, and yet is in yours, joined with doctrine not only manifoldly differing, but in a number of points, directly contrarying the word written: he shall be enforced to think, that if Tertullian were alive again, and saw notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle, as though all were yours, and no man had any right to any thing, but yourselves; he would more vehemently use these words here recited by you, against your prelate's, then ever he did against Martion, Apelles, or any other heretic in his time.  
But you are so liberal unto us, as to tell us, that though we had commission from God, yet he would have called it back, even for our noble acts and deeds, in driving you out of possession, and taking possession, though of our own, before the sentence of the judge was given. Which you prove by a law of Theodosius and Arcades Emperors of Rome, made to forbid men, under pain of losing their right, not to seek to recover possession of their own, by violence & force. Whereunto I answer you, that grant us so much (which of right you must) and for all your tale and penal Statute of Theodosius and Arcades, we shall be to good for you. For first, what other judges sentence were we to expect, but theirs, that we had on our side already? Secondly, there hath been no such tumultuous, or disorderly violence used by us (as I have showed before) as their law forbiddeth, to recover our own from you: and then you must understand, that these Emperors prescribe their law, to bridle men, and not to bind God from recovering his inheritance to the use of his servants, from the hands of Antichristian usurpers, even by force and violence, if otherwise they will not yield. To prove therefore, that God would have called in our commission, though he had granted it, rather than he would have suffered us to execute it, in violent driving you out of possession, to recover our own right, you had need to have used a stronger reason, then taken from the edict of Emperors. If these things had been well considered before of you, you might have spared your jest, wherewith you conclude this Chapter well enough, and so rather have stayed your pipes yourself, then in such sort, as you have, blown so joyfully in token of triumph, before any likelihood of victory. The vanity and falsehood of your brag, for the continuance of your religion above one thousand years, before we were borne, not only throughout France, but also throughout all Christendom, I have fully and at large discovered in the later end of the preface, & in my answer to your 4.16. & 39 ca & therefore in this place I have said no more than I have, referring the reader for a full answer thereunto both here, and wheresoever else it is repeated by you, unto these places. And though S. Augustine say, as you writ, that liberty and licence of conscience to do evil, is the death of the soul: yet that toucheth us nothing at all, for doing what we may, by lawful & ordinary means, to dispossess your Antichristian prelates of the places of government over Christ's Church, and of the maintenance due to his true & faithful pastors. For so to deal, is but orderly to recover God's inheritance out of the hands of his enemies, & to possess them thereof, to whom it is due, and therefore in so doing, there is neither liberty nor licence to do evil practised. But rather you, in craving the restoring of you thereunto, and quiet continuance therein still, crave both liberty & licence, without controlment to go on in sacrilegious enjoying that, which at no hand appertains to such as you be.    


The XVI. Chapter.  
FOR 
a This is untrue, for we allege both our lawful calling, & show the right that we & not you, have to those places and maintenance, for they were appointed for true Pastors, and not for wolves & foxes, as your Prelates have been a great while.  your defence you allege no other reason, but your good zeal, and your ardent Apostolical affection, the which hath moved you, to sow this seed of sedition. You say, that the field is great, and there are few good reapers, but if you mark that, that doth follow afterward, and to take the counsel of the wise: Christ doth not command therefore, that every one should take his sickle, and go, and cut down other men's corn. But he saith: 
* b Mat. 15.  
b Mat. 9 It is but your ill luck, scarce to quote one of ten rightly.  Pray the master of the work, to the end, that he send more workmen to his vine. He doth teach us, that if we see any estate out of order, we should pray to God to redress it: And in the mean time we ought to correct and amend our own lives: for if every man were for himself, God would be for us all. 
c That is a good means, but doth it thereupon follow, that no other means is good and lawful to that end, and in that case?  Yet, notwithstanding this, it is not reasonable, that under the colour of a good zeal, a servant should take in hand an act of so great importance, without express commandment of his master, as it is said. But now that we are come to talk of your good zeal (if it please you) let us know, 
d Neither have we.  if those ardent flames of charity have so inflamed you, that you have overthrown the chairs of the negligent Pastors and Bishops, and in their rooms ye have collocated your ministers in every place, where ye could bear any sway, as it doth appear in many towns and Cities in this Realm. I do not doubt, but that you will do the best that ye can to do the like with the rest, 
e This is but a malicious surmise enforced to make us odious, contrary both to your conscience and experience: but indeed it is plain by proof, that thus you dea●e with Kings and Queens, if they be ●o● of your sect and humour.  I mean as well temporal as spiritual. For even as God (of whom ye speak so often) doth make no exception of persons: even so you, that call yourselves his Lieutenants will make no difference between the evil estates & the good. Every one doth know, that the administration of justice is very honourable before God, and that there be many in this vocation, that would not for any thing do any wrong, unto the widow and fatherless child: & yet we see and know by experience, that there are many others that without any conscience, do take bribes and offer wrong, both to the fatherless & to the widow, the which crimes are no less in that estate, than the careless living of the Bishops and Pastors. So that I think by this, that he that hath given you charge & power to turn the Bishops out of their seats, the Curates out of their benefices, and the Monks and Abbots out of their Abbeys, because of their evil livings: would likewise extend your commission, to put down Lords, Knights, judges and Gentlemen, because of the corrupt lives of many of them. And to make an end of the reformation, your holy Ghost, and those zealous flames of the spirit, would move you to go a little higher: for there is nothing done, but the spirit may amend it. Against the great trees, strive the great winds; and against great dignities great abuses. It is not unknown to all men, that there are good and godly Catholic Princes and Kings, which are surely to the people the great gifts of God: but likewise one cannot deny, but that there hath been and are divers ill Princes, that do govern their people carelessly & without justice. And if by chance your Gospel should fall into some kingdom, where the Prince were not so sage nor so wise, as you would have him: in your conscience, what would you do to him? I think, that that very zeal (if you could) that hath moved you, under the colour of a reformed Gospel, to trouble so much 
a This you attempt and practise flatly, all the world knoweth. Look else to the course that your legers now in France take against their king.  our state, would likewise command you, to dispossess those Kings, that do abuse there own kingdoms, even aswell as to deprive those Bishops, that do abuse their bishoprics. But, O Lord, what a Gospel is this, if it be permitted, that the people shall call their Princes to account, or, that they may correct their superiors, under the colour of a reformed Gospel, what seditions, troubles and wars shall we see over all Christendom? We shall see fulfilled, to our great harm, the prophecy of 
* Cap. 3.  Esay, who saith: The people shall seek to raise one against another, & every one against his neighbour, the young man shall disdain the old, and the ignoble the noble etc.: But what colour soever ye cloak your new Gospel withal, ye run far wide from him, that doth command us 
* Rom. 13.  to 
b If this lesson had been remembered of your Romish prelates, they neither could nor would have been so terrible to Kings and Emperors, as they have been of late.  obey all creatures for the love of God. He doth not regard, whether they do acquit their charge or no, for the obedience of the inferiors is not limited by the duty of the superiors. 
* Rom. 13.  All power doth come of God, saith the Apostle, & he that resisteth that power, doth resist the ordinance of God, and they that do with say it, acquire for themselves damnation for ever. 
c The Lord in his word prescribeth obedience to civil magistrates, and to all such ministers and Chu ch officers, as are according to his ordinance, but if they be contrary to that, as your Popes be, he saith never a word for them, but many against them.  He doth make no distinction of persons, whither it be a Magistrate Ecclesiastical or temporal, whither it be a King or a Pope, a Bishop or a Lord, he doth talk generally of all powers that are established by God, to make us live in peace & tranquillity. God had not chosen of his good will Caesar the Emperor of Rome to be king of Jerusalem, as he did choose Saul, David, Solomon & the rest, for of his own ambition & unsatiable cupidity, he had usurped the kingdom appertaining to the house of David: yet our Saviour did command, that they should pay him tribute. Math. 22. The which commandment he himself did fulfil, to teach others obedience. God did likewise permit, that the wicked king Nabuchodonozor should destroy the kingdom of Jerusalem, to punish the wickedness of those, that dwelled in it. And although he had invaded the kingdom of juda, to the which he had no title nor right, yet doth God protest, that he gave it him, & he willeth & doth command, that they should obey him, even as if he were the best Prince of the world. Behold (saith God by the Prophet jeremy, Cap. 27.) you shall tell your Lords, that I make the earth, the men, & the beasts that walk on the face of the earth, through my great strength and mighty arm, and I have given it to whom it pleaseth me: And so now I have given all these Lands and countries to Nabuchodonozor my servant, king of Babylon. Besides this, I have given him the beasts and the fields to serve him, his son, & his sons son, until the time of his earth come: also of him many people & great kings shall come, and shall ordain, that the kingdom, or the people that shall not serve Nabuchodonozor king of Babylon, I will visit that people (saith the Lord) with the sword, pestilence, and hunger, until that I consume them in his hands. etc. But if you, my masters the new reformers of the Gospel, had been in those days, what would have bridled your burning zeal? 
d No● for your Pope's place and office that he challenges, is far more unlawful than Nabuchodonozor's was.  Can ye not with a little better cause report of Nobuchodonozor that, that ye report of the Pope: for who is that Nabuchodonozor, that we should submit ourselves unto him? He is not a king, he is not a tyrant, he is not an Emperor, but a robber, a cutthroat, more cruel than any kind of wild beast. Is it not by him, that the Prophets have represented the spoiler of nations? For God, when he would cause 
* Cap. 14.  Esay 
e Cujus contrarium verum est.  to talk of the fall of Lucifer, he doth descry it under the person of Nabuchodonozor: then how will you have us to submit ourselves to be subject unto him, whom God doth liken, not only to a devil, but to the captain of all the devils of hell? Many causes do persuade us, not to obey him. First, his wicked & abominable life. Secondly, our religion, for we believe in God, that created heaven & earth: but as for him, he is more than a worshipper of Idols, for he is one that called himself a God. thirdly, he is not of the line of David, by whom God had promised to establish his kingdom, for he was a stranger, & such a one, as got into the kingdom by force, making himself a king, not by righteous election, but by violent compulsion, so that, considering althese things, ye might well, according to your zeal, have found fault with his reign: but God would have stopped your mouths, saying, as I have written above, I have created all things, & I give them to whom it pleaseth me. Or as he saith in 
* Cap. 34.  job, It is I, that cause Hypocrites to reign to punish the sins of the people. Or as he saith in the .4. of Daniel, I have the pre-eminence over the kingdoms of men, & I give them to whom it pleaseth me. 
f True, the authority being of itself lawful, as Nabuchodonosors was, though he abused it, but it is not so when the office itself is utterly unlawful, as your Pope is.  And he that speaketh against him that is put in authority, although he be as evil as Nabuchodonozor, he shall perish through the sword, famine, or pestilence, or that that is worse, through eternal death. These are the very words that God spoke by the Prophet, & therefore saith Christ, Come unto me, & learn in my school, for I am humble and mild of heart, I have obeyed pilate, and Annas, & caiphass, I have suffered the sentence of death & have been nailed between two thieves, 
* Math. 12.  and I took it patiently for your sakes. Learn of me to be my disciples in the school of humility, and you shall find rest in your spirits. The which true rest indeed is, for every man to examine diligently his own conscience, and to commit to God the consciences of his superiors.   

The XVI. Chapter.  
NOT we, but your Romish Jesuits and seminary Priests, are the sowers of that seed of sedition, that you speak of; neither is it we, but they and such like of your side, which when they have so done, allege only for their defence, their ardent and apostolic zeal and affection to win souls. This, in England and Ireland these late years, hath notoriously and very often been found true in these, and questionless other kingdoms, where the Gospel is preached and established, have and do find the like. For they go up and down secretly, under the pretence of reconciling men and women, into the bosom of their mother Church, to alienate their hearts from their natural sovereign, to the obedience of a foreign potentate, and so prepare them against the time when opportunity shall best serve, to procure the death or deposition of their lawful Prince. And that thus without any offence to God they may do, they persuade themselves by virtue of the Pope's bull, in that therein they be absolved from their allegiance unto their home supreme magistrate, and are thereby also taught, that in furthering either his deprivation or death, they shall do honourable, acceptable and meritorious service to the mother church of Rome. These things (I say) have of late years too too often here in England, in open places of judgement been manifestly proved against your Jesuits and Popish Priests, and therefore as traitors a number of them and their followers, have been most worthily executed. Which things being so evident as they are, great shame is it, that yet you should not blush to charge us with these things, whereof yours are most famously guilty, and whereof truly you cannot convict any of ours. You tell us we should have prayed to the Lord of the harvest, to thrust forth more labourers thereinto (as Christ hath commanded us Math. 9 and not as you quote it Math. 15.) and that in the mean time we should have reform ourselves, and not have taken upon us without some express commandment from God, a matter of such importance, as the reformation of your estate is. According to this counsel of Christ, we have prayed to the Lord of the harvest, and he, in his mercy towards his Church, hath heard our prayers, and we hope will every day more and more, to the full overthrow of yours, and perfect consummation of ours. But that in the mean time, they, whose eyes God hath opened to see the Babylonish confusion of yours, should there have stayed (as you would have had them) until they had a further commission from God then already they had (for so you must needs mean by that further commission or express commandment, that you would have had them first to have had) you can never prove. For they, whose ministry it pleased God to use to detect your Antichristian doings according to his word 2. Thessal. 2. in these later days were such, as namely, Wickliff, john Hus, and Luther, that had not only the ordinary calling of those times to feed God's people as pastors and doctors, but also they were such as God had blessed with rare and extraordinary gifts of knowledge and zeal, and therefore if they seeing the abominations of your Synagogue, and the gross blindness and errors that you still laboured to hold God's people in, had contented themselves only with praying unto God for the redress thereof, & with reforming of themselves, & had not said their hands & shoulders to the work, using the talents that God had bestowed upon them, to his best advantage, without a further new and express commandment, than they had already received in the written word, should not they with the unprofitable servant Math. 25. have had their wages? They took not in hand to do as they did (as you would make your Reader believe) only under the colour of zeal, without express warrant from God their Lord and master For beside their zeal and knowledge, by their callings in that they were famous doctors and pastors in their times, they were bound by God's express word Esay 58.1. Ezech. 33.6. & 7. and in sundry other places to do, as they did. But to bring us and our ministers into hatred, in this Chapter you labour to persuade your reader, that as of burning zeal they have in many places dispossessed your Bishops and Priests of their places, so as God's Lieutenants, and as men void of all partiality (for thus tauntingly it pleaseth you to write) they will proceed against civil magistrates, both higher and lower in like manner, because many of them have been and be (as you say) as ill livers and rather worse, than your Popish Prelates have been. Which to be an unlawful thing and the cause of all confusion and horrible disorder, you bestow a great deal of needless pains to prove, for it is a thing that we teach and urge in earnest, and you (your practice to the contrary being so usual as it is considered) only in jest, and for a fashion teach it. But indeed this is the way, which the malicious and ancient enemies of God's Church have always used, to disgrace the true servants of God by, with the Kings and Princes of the world, and therefore you do well in that you are nothing behind them, in malice & enmity against God's people, in that you study also to be like them in this. We read (you know) after the return of God's people out of their captivity in Babylon, when they began once to build and to go forward, either with God's house in Jerusalem, or the walls of that City, always this was one of the practices of their enemies to labour their discredit, to the hindrance of their work, to accuse them to the Persian Kings, to intend therein sedition and rebellion against them. Ezr. 4. Nehem. 6. And it appears john 19 it was the principallest means, whereby the high Priest and the jews provoked Pilate, to give sentence against our Saviour, that they told him, that he was not Caesar's friend, if he delivered him, thereby insinuating (though in truth he had both paid tribute unto Caesar, and had taught others both by example and word publicly, to yield unto Caesar whatsoever was due unto him Math. 16. & 22. and they of all other did most repine at Caesar's jurisdiction over them and their country) that he was one whose doings and doctrine tended to the supplanting of Caesar. In like manner Act. 17. & 24. we find it one of the usual means, that the unbelieving jews and other lewd people (then when none in their hearts regarded Caesar and his authority less) used to discredit the Apostles and their doctrine, to accuse them to be seditious and such as cared not for Caesar's decrees. Neither did this practice die, when the common weal of the jews ceased, for it appears in Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 1. and in tertullian's Apology in sundry places, that there was nothing more common in the primative Church, then to lay to the charge of the Christians, that they conspired amongst themselves against the state of the common weal, and the civil and supreme magistrates thereof. And therefore we can the more patiently abide this your dealing with us, in that herein we see we are no otherwise dealt withal by you, than God's people, Christ his Apostles, and other his faithful servants have been dealt withal in ancient time, by your predecessors. But the lords name be praised for it, howsoever it hath pleased you, in thus charging us to intend the deposition and displacing of civil magistrates, to conform yourselves to the ancient enemies of God's people, our doings in those places where our Religion hath been longest settled, doth evidently in the eyes of the world acquit us hereof. For in such places who seeth not, that the civil magistrates together with it have always, and yet do honourably and quietly enjoy their places and dignities? Yea this we dare be bold to say, that the Christian Kings, Princes and magistrates, that have given best entertainment unto it, find by most manifest experience, that both it and the professors thereof, have better established them in their thrones, and more advanced them in their dignities, than ever they were or could be by yours. For now they are absolute Kings and Princes according to their right, where as yours made them to hold their kingdoms, as the Pope's vassals, and so but at the courtesy and devotion of a foreigner, and of an intolerable proud and unsatiable usurping Prelate: and now their treasure is kept at home to the strengthening greatly of their kingdoms and dominions, which by your Romish Religion & government, was wont a 1000 ways most insatiably in infinite quantity yearly, to the wonderful weakening thereof, to be conveyed to Rome. And whereas then by means of your auricular confession, the secrets of every Prince where that was used, was often to the great peril of their states made known, to many & undiscreet blabs & by them & their means to their foreign head the Pope, and so he was thereby always the better enabled for the furtherance of his own devices, to prevent & cross theirs: by the banishing of that Romish stratagem Princes counsels & secrets, are kept at home in secret as they should, to the great good of them & their countries. And lastly, by our Religion, according to the examples of David, Solomon, Asa, jehosaphat, Ezechias, josiah, Constantine & Theodosius, they are in possession of their full authority, to command for Religion & in matters ecclesiastical, aswell their subjects of the clergy as the rest; whereas by your Religion they were supreme governors under God for matters civil only, & had their clergy so exempted from them and their jurisdiction, that howsoever they had their bodies in their kingdoms to enjoy the promotions thereof, they had neither their bodies nor souls in further subjection, then would stand with the pleasure and profit of the foreign potentate the Pope. By means whereof, Anselme, Stephen Lanckton, Thomas Becket and sundry other proud prelate's of this land, have so stuck to the Pope, against their sovereign kings at home here in England, that in comparison of the Pope, they have set their King at nought, to the wonderful trouble and disquiet of the whole land, as notoriously appears in our Chronicles. Which things considered, I think you may long tell Princes, that you and your religion is friendly to them, and that we and ours is hurtful unto them, before any of them, that be wise, believe you. Truly I cannot but wonder at your gross hypocrisy in this Chapter, in that you are so earnest and busy, not only to prove it unlawful and monstrous, how bad soever they that be in authority be, to refuse to yield duty & submission unto them, but also to lay to our charge, that we have an intention, to place and displace civil magistrates at our pleasure. For I cannot persuade myself, that your skill in divinity was so small, but you were resolved for all this, that the obedience and subjection taught in these places here quoted by you, or any where else in the scriptures, is not so infinite and absolute, as that thereby subjects are bound to do whatsoever by higher powers, be it good or bad, they are commanded to do. For how could it be possible, that a man of your place should forget the usual limitation, in the Lord, or that you should not remember that God must be obeyed before man. Neither yet can I think, that you were ignorant, but that the very same thing which here you charge us with, as with a grievous fault, hath been and yet is openly practised, and taught publicly, to be very lawful in your Church of Rome. Hereof I am sure D. Allen, a great man of your side, in his 5 Chapter of his defence of English catholics, reckons up in a great bravery and brag, sundry Kings and Emperors by force deposed by the Pope. And indeed it appears most evidently in sundry Chronicles, that at their pleasure, a long time they have most shamefully misused Christian Princes & potentates of the world. For though they were and are beholden to the Christian Roman Emperors, for their first advancement, from the state of poor persecuted bishops, to the state of patriarchs in these western parts, yet in process of time, when the seat of the empire was removed to Constantinople, & these western parts were governed by an exarch at Ravenna, they through the help of certain Kings of the Lombard's and others, in token of thankfulness to the ancient Emperors of Rome, quite extinguished their Empire and authority in these west parts. And in the end, not contented with that, which they had encroached by the ruin of the Empire, through the help of the Goths, Vandals, Lombard's & others (seeking thereby their further advancement) Pope Zachary, about the year 743. found the means to cause Childericke then King of France, to be deposed, and he set up Pipine in his room, whom he & his successor Stephen the 2. advanced to the Empire, and therefore this Pipine, Charles the great and Lodovic his son (which three immediately succeeded one another, in the new Empire, thus translated unto them by the Pope) to gratify the Pope for the same, they brought the Lombard's and others, that before began to be somewhat to saucy with the Popes, under, and bestowed upon his see, as Blondus & Volateran note, very many rich and great islands, cities, countries, shires, towns and provinces, whereby he was mightily advanced. Yet for all these great benefits received by the line of Pipine, when his successors began not to be pliable enough (as they thought) to their beck, in making war against the Princes of Italy, which began to pinch them for their wrong-gotten goods, Gregory the fifth about the year 1002. practiseth with the Germans, to bring the Empire to them, from the line of France, and so Otho was set up Emperor. But when these Germane Emperors began to abridge them of their will, and to resist their tyrannical oppressions, than they laboured & practised by all means, to hamper them also: in so much that certain it is, that Gregory the 7. excommunicated Henry the 4. or as some writ 3. about the year 1078. & gave his empire to Rodolph, who missing of it & being slain, the Emperor yet to be reconciled with the Pope, waited 3. days & 3. nights in the winter, with his wife and child at the gates of Canossus, and within the suburbs thereof, barefoot & barelegged, before he could come to the speech of the Pope, when he had obtained that, than he was feign to kiss his foot, and to yield up his crown into his hands, & to take it again upon such conditions, as it pleased him to prescribe, and yet his successor Pascalis raged against the same Emperor again, & set up his own natural son Henry, to deprive his father of his Empire. Who when he had got it, yet he was in the end accursed and excommunicated by that Romish see, as his father had been, and not prevailing sufficiently that way, the Saxons at last were set up to war against him and depose him. And thus they having hampered these two Henry's, unto Frederick Barbarossa came, which was about the year 1155. they did what they listed, who began somewhat again to abridge them of their usurped supremacy, and so did his son's son Frederick the 2. but in the end Alexander the third, brought the neck of the first under his feet in S. Marks church in Venice, and Pope Adrian controlled him from holding his wrong stirrup, & excommunicated him for being so saucy, as to set his name in writing before his; and the other was miserably vexed, by Honorius the 3. Gregory the 9 and Innocent the 4. For the first of these interdicted him, the second excommunicated him twice, & raised the Venetians against him; and the third did in the end spoil him of his Empire, caused him to be poisoned, and at length strangled by one Manfredus. Innocent the 3. in the minority of Frederick the second, and before he was chosen Emperor, dealt in like sort with Philip and Otho the 4. placing them and displacing them at his pleasure. Frederick the seconds son called Conrade, and the next of his line also called Conradine were amongst them miserably abused: for the first of them was soon dispatched, they stirring up against him the Landgrave of Turing, who drove him into his kingdom of Naples, where he died of poison given him, as some writ; & the other claiming but the kingdom of Naples, after his death the matter was so handled (they stirring up Charles the French kings brother against him) that both he & Frederick, Duke of Austria, were taken, imprisoned & in the end beheaded. Henry the 6. Frederick the firsts son, Pope Celestine the 3. crowned at Rome, but in such sort, that with his foot he put the crown upon his head, & therewith he spurned it of again. And the like that happened to Frederick had almost befallen Philip the French king, by Pope Boniface the 8. who because he could not have whatsoever commodities he demanded out of France, by his bull denounced sentence of deposition against the said King Philip, and gave the title thereof to one Albertus king of the Romans: ●●t for all the roaring of that bull, Philip kept his place still. Alexander the 3. that trod upon Frederick the firsts neck at Venice, even here in England so far abused King Henry the 2. about Thomas Beckets' death, that he caused him to go for penance barefoot in winter, with bleeding feet to his tomb. And Innocent the third caused King john his son, after that 7. years he had resisted their supremacy & tyranny, by the means of his excommunications, indicements of his land, and encouraging of his subjects against him, to surrender his crown to the hands of his Legate Pandelphus, and so he continued five days, before he received it again, and then was glad to take it in farm of him for a rent by indenture. Infinite be the villainies, that have been offered & done by that see to Emperors and Kings. For did not Gregory the 7. to the great injury of the Empire, set up Robert Wizard, and made him King of Sicilia and Duke of Capua? Did not Pope Vrbane the second put down Hugo an Earl in Italy, discharging his subjects from their oath and obedience unto him? Did not Pope Clement the fift, most despitefully cause Franciscus Dandalus, the Venetian ambassador, suing but for absolution of Venice from the Pope's curse, to lie a long time first tied by the neck in a chain under his table, like a dog, before he would hearken to his request. Furthermore Gelasius the second, brought the noble captain Cintius so under, that he was glad lying prostrate before him, to kiss his feet, and by the year 1237, the Pope Gregory the 9 had so cursed king Henry the 3: king here of England, that he was glad (to curry favour with him) to receive a Legate of his, called Cardinal Otho, meeting him at the sea side, & that in most lowly manner, bowing down his head in low courtesy towards his knees. And though he yielded wonderful submission to the next Pope Innocent the 4. yet he took of one David Prince of North-wales 500 marks by the year, to set him against the King of England, & exempted him & his welshmen, from their fealty which they had sworn unto him before. Most intolerable were the exactions & commodities, that one way & other the Popes for themselves & their friends, had out of England in Henry the 2. king johns & Henry the thirds time: they exceeded often (as it appeareth in the stories) the ancient revenues of the crown, & wonderfully impoverished the land, & yet when these kings (though in never so humble manner) at any time, never so little sought to stay these pillages & oppressions of the land, the Popes raged most extremely against them: & did then what despite they could, until they had their will. Yea so intolerable hath been their pride & insolency against kings & Emperors, that they have brought them to lead their horses by the bridle, & to wait on them on foot like lackeys, they riding like high & mighty princes over them, & they have made them feign to please them withal, to hold them water & to serve at their table. And though their power be not as it hath been, yet 〈◊〉 ●lice and will, to trample Princes under their feet, is as 〈◊〉 as ever it was, and therefore not only have Pius 5. and Gregory the 13. by their cursed bulls, roared against our gracious sovereign Lady Queen Elizabeth that now is, thereby labouring her deposition, but also both secretly and openly, a number of ways they and their fauourits have gone about both by open hostility and privy conspiracies, to bring that their wicked purpose to pass, yea though it were, by the shedding of her innocent blood. And so far are they of yet in this great light to be ashamed of murdering treacherously Christian Princes, whom otherwise they cannot frame to their fancies, that of very late years, by a most wicked varlet, whom they had persuaded, that therein he should do a meritorious deed, they so dispatched the noble Prince of Orange; and since by the like persuasions, have sought by one Parrie and others to effect the like against our sovereign; whom the Lord for his Christ's sake so long preserve, that she may see either the happy conversion, or effectual confusion of all her enemies. Now these things considered, and they being most true (as from point to point, they are testified by your own Chronicles) if there had been any shame in you, you would never have gone about as you have, to charge us with your surmised intention to displace civil magistrates. Whereas you would seem to strengthen this your malicious accusation, in that we have displaced some of your Popish Bishops, Priests, Monks, and Friars, and refuse obedience and submission to your Popes: you must understand that herein you commit two great and foul faults; the first is, that you stretch the places here quoted by you, which teach indeed only obedience and submission to civil magistrates, and to lawful ecclesiastical persons, in the Lord, as though therein and thereby God had aswell tied and bound all persons, to obedience and subjection, to your unlawful and Antichristian Prelates and clergy, yea and that in such strict manner, as though it were unlawful how bad and wicked soever they and their commandments be, either to refuse to obey them, or to speak any hard word against them: your second fault is, that you take it, that there is no difference to be put betwixt your ecclesiastical Prelacies, and the higher powers, that the scriptures in these places teach obedience and submission unto: whereas indeed there is as great difference, as there is betwixt heaven and earth, and the ordinances of God and the unlawful devices of man, betwixt the higher powers there spoken for, & the higher powers that you plead so much for. For the higher powers there spoken for, be such as though sometimes for just causes known unto God, they light in the hands of wicked and profane persons, yet of themselves are the lawful ordinances of God, whereas the authority of your Popes & of other your Romish Prelates, whom we have displaced, and refuse to submit ourselves unto, is utterly unlawful, and not only without warrant from the lord in his word, but directly contrary to the same. For whereas Rom. 12. & Ephesians 4. the spirit of God hath reckoned up all the ecclesiastical officers, which Christ the master of the house hath appointed, for the full and perfect ordering thereof, none of these of yours, whom we have displaced and refuse to obey, are once remembered, & besides both contrary to Christ our saviours express commandment, & Peter's also Luk. 22.1. Pet. 5. they take upon them, as tyrannially as ever did any Princes of the nations, Lordship over God's inheritance, & therefore by their proceed we finding them to be very antichristian, both S. Paul's prophesy, that Antichrist shall be consumed by the spirit of God's mouth 2. Thess. 2. and that flat commandment given us from heaven Apoc. 18. to come out from Babylon, & to separate ourselves from her, do assure us, that lawfully we may speak against them and their enormities, and not only refuse submission unto them, but also to do what we can to root out such plants, which our heavenly father never planted, out of the earth. Wherefore fond do you go about to teach, out of the Prophet jeremy, that as the jews were taught submission and obedience to Nabuchadnezzar, so we should learn thereby, to chamber our tongues against your Pope and other Prelates, & also quietly to submit ourselves unto them. For though he were a wicked tyrant, yet his authority itself was lawful, and the ordinance of God; and he came unto his authority over the jews, by force of arms & conquest, which is an ordinary way, that God useth to invest Kings and Emperors, with such civil authority over nations and countries by, whereas the very authority itself of your Popes and other Prelates (howsover you confidently, and yet untruly avouch that S. Paul Rom. 13. is to be understood, aswell to have spoken that which he there speaketh of them, as of Kings & other lawful magistracies & offices) is as I have proved utterly unlawful, and the means whereby they have come thereunto, hath been shameless wresting of the scriptures, fraud, deceit, treachery & main force, which all are abominable steps, for clergy men to attain unto their offices by: neither would we, if we had lived under the persecuting Emperors of Rome, or under Nabuchadnezzar (as you here insinuate) have refused to yield so far obedience and submission unto them, in all quietness, as we might, not disobeying the Lord to obey them; and further, neither the jews under the one, nor the Christians under the other, were bound: which obedience and submission to your Popes & Prelates will not serve your turn, for you would have it yielded unto them without limitation, for otherwise they should not be obeyed, wherein you would feignest have them obeyed. And therefore in your Canon law dist. 40. cap. Sipapa: it is enacted, that though your Popes should deal never so lewdly, both in respect of themselves, and in carrying others by heaps unto hell, yet none must be so presumptuous, as to ask them, why they do so. Howbeit for the more full satisfying the Reader, and clearing ourselves of this your slanderous accusation, of intending the displacing of civil magistrates, for their wicked lives, this further is the common and received doctrine amongst us, concerning that point: that though Christian subjects may not disobey God, to obey their wicked commandments, yet they are rather patiently to suffer the penalties that they shall inflict upon them, for their choosing rather to obey God then them, then to use or to consent to the using of any forcible means to depose them. And this our practice hath plentifully made to appear, to be the common and received opinion in this case amongst us. But whereas you would have us so humble and meek (by abusing and wresting Christ's counsel given us Mat. 11.) as that we should obey Pilate, Annas and Caiphas, even to the suffering of death, without once opening our lips, to speak any word of disgrace against them: I see the only mark you shoot at is, that we should obey your Popes & Prelates in whatsoever they command us, or else that we should suffer them, without once muting against them, to make what havoc of us they list. For though you would seem to plead for our obedience & submission to the civil magistrates, yet plainly you bewray, that so your Popes and Prelates might get this submission at our hands, you have the thing you shoot at and care for. But to return to your persuasion of us to be meek and humble etc. tell me in good earnest, did Christ at any time obey any of them you speak of, in any thing that was ill? and was there not a necessity in regard of our redemption to suffer those things which he suffered, and as he suffered them at their hands? what maketh this then, either to bind us to obey the wicked & ungodly proceed of your Popes and Prelates, wherein only we refuse to listen unto them, or needelesly to suffer those things at your hand, which lawfully we may avoid? And I trust you are persuaded, that Christ himself that willed others to learn of him to be humble and meek, that he never forgot that lesson himself. And yet if you read Mat. 23. and john the 8. you shall find, that he comprising the high Priests themselves within the compass of his speech, aswell as other his inferior malicious enemies, calleth them hypocrites, children of the Devil etc. And the Prophets though they were not to learn of you, how to behave themselves to higher powers, yet they did use often very sharp and bitter speeches, against the Princes and other rulers of their times; an example whereof you have Esay. 1.10. in these words. Hear the word of the Lord O Princes of Sodom: harken to the law of our God, O people of Gomorrah. But Paul you will say Act. 23. having called a wicked high Priest, that contrary to law tyrannously had commanded him to be smitten, painted wall, being admonished thereof, corrects himself, remembering that it is written, thou shalt not rail or speak ill of the Prince, Ex. 22. saying I knew not that he was the high Priest. Indeed one of the high Priests clawback's, who are always ready to justify their master, how unjustly soever he deal, and to control God's servants for saying never so little amiss of them, though thereunto they be never so justly provoked, gave him a check therefore, whereupon it seemeth that Paul upon the reason aforesaid excused himself, but indeed he did it in such sort, as that in truth he give, him a greater blow, though somewhat more covertly, than he had done before, in plainly showing that, (that dealing of his considered) he knew him not to be the high Priest. But if this notwithstanding, you think still, that Paul would not give any hard speech to such a Prelate, and justify it when he had done, consider a little what reckoning you make of Saint Peter, and then call to remembrance, what is written Gal. 2. and you shall find it clear, that not only he rebuked Peter openly at Antioch, but that also he justifies that his own doing therein, saying, that he did so because he went not with the right foot to the Gospel. And learn by these places not to be so dainty over your Popes and Prelates hereafter, but that if they do lewdly, think it may well stand with that meekness & humility, that Christ hath taught us, that they be plainly as they deserve, told of their doings by us. It is one thing to rafle of them, that be in lawful authority, and to backbite and deprave them; and another thing it is, by way of instruction, admonition and reprehension, by plain, just and true terms, to let them see their faults, so it be done in time and place convenient, & in manner beseeming such an action. This later might the jews do to Nabuchadnezzar notwithstanding jeremies' words, and the Christians under the heathen Emperors to them, and yet both keep within duty and loyalty, but the former is that which is unlawful to be used against any, how bad soever he be, that is in place of lawful magistracy or office. Finally, whereas you yet think scorn, that your Pope should be worse than Nabuchadnezzar: and that therefore the jews might have had far more just exceptions against him, to free them from their obedience and submission to him, than we have to free us from subjection to your Popes, in truth, therein you are very much deceived. For first, his authority, as a King over them, was a power in itself lawful, though abused by him; and yours (as I have showed) is flatly unlawful: and the jews were commanded subjection unto him; and we are commanded (as I have said) revel. 18. to forsake all communion with your Popish Antichristian kingdom. Your Popes for lewdness of life, for manifold Idolatries, and blasphemies in Religion, and for want of right title to the dignity and office which they claim, doubtless will thoroughly match him, & by how much their knowledge, in respect of the means they have which he lacked, should be more than his: by so much these things in them, make them more intolerable, than the same could make him. And therefore these things considered, the obedience and submission which the jews were enjoined to yield to Nabuchadnezzar, inferreth not the like to be due to your Popes and other your Romish Prelates.    


The XVII. Chapter.  
ANy man may easily perceive by this discourse, that you have no great reason, in saying that that you say, and much less to do that that you preach, I mean, to begin the reformation of the church by the way of force, the which is a thing contrary to all laws divine and human, which defend 
* Cod. ut nemo in suâ causâ jud.  that 
a This is your dealing flat, for your Pope is the party many ways most justly charged by us, & yet he will be the supreme judge in his own cause.  one should be judge in his own cause: and you will not only be a judge, but a party, resembling in this him that gave the blow to Christ, unto whom the answer was made, 
* ᵇ Job. 15.  
b Well hit again, 15. for 18.  If we have done ill, 
c This always we are ready to do.  prove it before the judge, seeing that you are our accusers. If you say, that God hath given you power, to know, to judge, and to exempt, that is to say, to drive us out of our possession, and to cause the people to forsake that Religion, which they have maintained 
d It is a shame to repeat this brag so often, and never to go about in all your book, once to prove it, which you know is the main question.  these 1500. years & upwards, show us your commission, with as sure a warrant, as so great a matter doth require, seeing that you say, that ye are sent extraordinarily, as Moses was, to redeem the children of Israel out of the captivity of Egypt, that is to say, according unto your interpretation, the children of God, & the true faithful, out of the false Religion of the Papists, of that which the Pope, Antichrist, & worse than Pharaoh, is the head & master. Thus ye use to expound & moralizate the figures of the old Testament, in favour of the Catholic Church: yet is it so, that when God spoke unto you about so zealous a thing as this, ye forgot one thing, that doth hinder greatly your commission. You should have showed God, that the commission which he gave you, was like to breed no less mischief amongst the Papists, than Moses did among the Egyptians. For I 
e And you know we have just cause, so to think and say.  am sure (if any to try you, would take your oath) that you would swear, that the Pope is as ill as Pharaoh, and we as hard hearted as the Egyptians. Therefore, why did ye not demand of him, a rod to convert into a serpent, and to pass dry foot over the red Sea? 
f Our vocation is ordinary, the message we have old and ancient, sufficiently confirmed by all the miracles chronicled in the Scriptures, and therefore this was needless.  Why did ye not require at his hand, that it might please him to authorize his word preached by your ministers with signs, miracles and tokens, as he did, when he sent your fellows the Apostles: seeing that you are Prophets, how cometh it to pass, that you have not foreseen, that we would not believe you: for who is he (although he were a Devil) that could not say as much? But we have one disavow, which God hath given to many, which do report, that they do come from him, which doth greatly overthrow the authority of your commission. 
g These & many more such like, do so fitly paint your Prelates, & therefore it is, that we shun them as we do.  He doth say in the 14. of Hieremie, the Prophets preach falsely in my name, I have not sent them, I have not commanded them, nor I have not spoken unto them: but they prophecy unto you false visions, and naughty divinations, to deceive your hearts. And likewise in the 27. Chapter. I have not sent them (saith the Lord God) & they prophecy in my name falsely, to the intent I should forsake you, and that aswell you, as your prophets should perish. Item in the 29. Let not your Prophets seduce you, that are amongst you, nor your soothsayers, and do not mark the dreams that ye dream, for they do prophecy falsely unto you in my name, seeing that I have not sent them, saith the Lord. etc. So that, although it were true, that God hath sent you (as it is false) we might with a just cause, pretend an excuse of ignorance, and to say with great assurance that, that 
* Gen 20.  Abimilech said unto God, 
g That you cannot, for you have the Scriptures of the old and new Testament, if you had grace, to preserve you from such blindness as ye show, in refusing our doctrine, which is so warranted as it is there.  where he threatened, that he would kill him, because he kept Abraham's wife. O Lord God (said he) would you kill a poor simple nation? Shall it be said, that we believe all those, that feign to come in your name? have not you commanded us by the Apostle, 
* 1. joh. 1.  
h And therefore we are so bold as to try your popish spirit, by the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures.  That we should not believe every spirit: and that the Angel of darkness doth transform himself into an Angel of light? Have not you commanded to be written, that we should beware which way we take, and that such a way doth seem good, the which notwithstanding doth lead unto damnation and perdition. If any, saying that he is our Prince's servant, 
i But we have both, and unless we can prove we have, believe us not  should come to demand a sum of money in his master's name, and that he had neither his hand nor his seal to warrant his demand, would not we send him away like a false merchant, fearing that he would deceive us? then with greater reason, ought we to fear the committing of our faith, & the hope of our salvation into their hands, whom we know not, nor that cannot show any miracles, 
k You were deceived, these words be not there.  to confirm their preaching, as the Apostles did. 
* ᵏ Mat. 28.  Qui confirmabant sermonem, sequentibus signis. That is, which did confirm their preaching, with signs or miracles following: 
l Because there is not like reason and cause, as them.  whi● do not they say, as he said, whose successors they profess to be, the signs of my commission & Apostleship have been accomplished among you, with signs and miracles. 2. Cor. 12.   

The XVII. Chapter.  
YOu proceed, charging us to have begun reformation by force, but as yet you have not proved it. Upon the beginning thereof, in these later days, or not long after, we grant some stirs did arise in Germany, France and other places, but therein it hath fallen out no otherwise with the renewing and reviving the Gospel of Christ, than it fell out with the Apostles when they began first to preach it. For we read Act. 17.19. that then stirs and tumults there were usually raised up, by the enemies thereof to hinder the course thereof. And as long as it is not to be looked for, but that always it will have some enemies, what else can be hoped for, but when it springeth & beginneth to flourish there will be some stirs and contentions betwixt, the friends and enemies thereof? But as the Apostles when for these stirs sake they were charged to be seditious persons, might truly clear themselves, in that not they, nor the professors of the Gospel were at any time the authors thereof, but rather the enemies thereof: so may we in this same case also do. For either they have begun of yourselves, who have thought by force to stop the course of the Gospel, or if any have begun by others, as some did in Germany by the anabaptists, our men have been the forwardest, by their writings and otherwise, to condemn their doings therein. And yet though it should have fallen out, or it may be proved that in some one place or other there have been since this late detection of Popish enormities, some disorderly tumults, and in the same some unlawful force used, wherewith some indiscreet persons of our side, may justly be charged, as long as it is a thing which we neither like, allow, nor justify in them, what reason is there, that that should be objected as matter of sufficient disgrace to all the rest of us, and to our Religion also? Is it impossible for such things, to fall out sometimes amongst them that profess God's truth, even in well ordered common weals? Then truly of all men in the world, the men of your profession will be proved to have least acquaintance with God's truth. For never were there more broils, hot contentions and force more used to compass your wills, then have been amongst you: every several order of Religious men, every abbey, every Cathedral Church (if the stories were searched) ministers unto us infinite demonstration, that there hath nothing been more usual amongst you. O the lamentable and most savage cruel dealing that hath been used with great approbation by men of your side, to bring the poor Indians by force in subjection unto you. And what extreme force and cruelty hath been used of late years, to subdue the poor Christians of Cabriers Merindoll, and other places thereabout, and to root out the professors of the Gospel, and their favourers in France? I am persuaded that the Turks never used more faithless, tyrannical and monstrous dealings, than the stories and the evidence of the thing, declares you have used against these. And therefore it being so usual a thing with you, as it is, to promote your Religion by force, of all men you are the unfittest to charge others with that, as with a fault, which you account so laudable in yourselves. And yet as though you had said so much against us for this, as that thereupon it must needs appear to every man, that we have neither reason of our saying or doing, you further charge us, that herein (in seeking namely the reformation of your Church) we have taken upon us, contrary to all laws both divine and human, being also a party, to be our own judge; wherein you say untruly of us, for we always have been contented, to submit both our sayings and doings, to the judgement of the Lord himself, speaking unto us in the written word, and by the same we have had our sayings and doings often examined, and tried to be sound and lawful in national and provincial Synods, before we have attempted the reformation you speak of. And secondly, herein you charge us as you did before, with that which you yourselves are openly guilty of. For though your Pope be the special party accused by us, yet in all matters in question betwixt you and us, you will have him to be the supreme judge, and so the question being betwixt you & us, whither you be the church or we, and whither you hold the truth or we, no other trial will you admit, but that we must be judged by him, whither it be so or no. Wherein you deal, as if the fellow at the bar, should refuse all other trial, but to be tried by the principal in that felony, whither he be guilty or no. Now whereas yet in this our dealing, you would resemble us to him, that gave Christ a blow etc. Your error is manifold, & therein it seemeth either your negligence was much, or that your wits were benumbed. For where the story you allude unto is. joh. 18. it is quoted in your book john. 15. & neither do you hit of Christ's words, in rehearsing the answer to him that smote him, nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appear, betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church, & that fellow. Christ's answer was this, if I have evil spoken, bear witness if the evil, but if I have well spoken, why smitest thou me? And you set down his answer thus, if we have done ill, prove it before the judge, seeing that you are our accusers: & as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and us, you show not wherein it is, neither can I guess wherein you meant it. But indeed your dealing with us considered, he carrieth a lively resemblance of a number of you, whose property it is, to bring us for our holy profession before your high priest, and his chaplains, and then if we chance to answer boldly for our own defence as Christ did (though never so directly to the purpose) to check us, and strike us, as he did our saviour, for your great prelate's may not so be answered. But perhaps you will say, that the words that you set down, contain your answer to us, when we check you for your doings: why then set you them down, as the answer made by Christ to him that smote him? And if the words be taken as your answer to us (meaning therein such a judge, as either the Pope or one of his sworn men) that we should be drawn before such judges by your own law here alleged, is against reason, for they can be no competent judges, because they themselves are principal parties. Our accusation of you we are always ready to prove, before the Lord of heaven and earth, and before any other indifferent judges, by such deponents and witnesses, as will not be corrupted either by you or us, namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality, in the Canonical scriptures. Exemption from this judgement we never sought nor will, and if your religion fly this kind of trial and judgement, God hath given us power even thereby to judge, that you are such as ought to be driven from possession of such a corrupt religion, that dare not show the face in this court of judgement, because than it knoweth, it should be foiled. But yet to hold your Clients in some liking of your religion, you once again confidently brag, that it is of one thousand five hundred years continuance and upwards, and therefore you require us that would dissuade you therefrom, to show our commission sealed and confirmed, as so great a matter doth require, and as Moses his was, by miracles: which in this case to be as necessary for us, as it was for him, you strive to prove in the rest of this Chapter, and that otherwise you are not to believe us. Wherefore because all this you require at our hands, and think you may do it still only upon this supposition, that your religion is thus ancient, as you brag. First, let us consider of that point, and then proceed to the rest which you infer thereupon. Herein, that which I have written already both in the later end of the preface and in my answer to your 4 Chapter, doth sufficiently discover the shameless folly and vanity of this your brag: howbeit because I perceive what you lack in truth in this matter, your purpose is to make up with the setting a stout countenance upon it: once again, I will take the pains to strip your Church and religion of this vizard of antiquity, which done for all your lewd brags, I doubt not, but that both the one and the other shall be found a youngling & a new upstart in comparison of that, which you pretend. First therefore, to begin withal, in that the greek Churches (which quite broke of communion with you, in the time of Gregory the 9, in the year 1230, which is now not above 360. years ago) have not yet allowed the mass, to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and dead, do minister no private masses either in the Church or else where, reserve not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof, nor deny the ministering thereof under both kinds to any communicant: in that also they never yet could be brought, to allow of the supremacy of your Pope, nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation, extreme unction, purgatory & of forbidding their ministers the use of lawful marriage (in which points now a great part of your religion consists) even thereby it may be perceived, that none of these points, as they are now taught by you, were received for catholic 360. years ago. For if when they broke of communion from you, these had then been so accounted and taken, doubtless they had then been acquainted with these, and so by all likelihood, had held them, as they do other things which with you they had learned before, unto this day. I am not ignorant that not long after in Gregory the tenths time, in a council at Lions, and after that again, in the Florentine council, labour was made to bring them to communion & union with you again, and that in the first, Michael Paleologus (so the better to compass help to keep his kingdom, which with brutish murder he had got) and some other of his friends, assented unto a decree to that end; and that in the other likewise, johannes Paleologus Emperor of Constantinople, and the patriarch there, with some other greek bishops, amongst whom was Bessarion, assented, in some sort to your Pope's title and your doctrine of purgatory. But withal, good reader, I must tell thee, that I find, the consenting of the first, was so misliked of the rest of the bishops of Grecia, when they came home, that the stories report, that even therefore they held them, that so assented, always after, as persons cut of from the communion of their Church, and when they died, denied them the honour of burial. And that likewise the same stories report, not only that in the later by no means they could be brought to allow of transubstantiation, though there they were urged much thereunto, but that for their yielding in the other they were so resisted, when they came at home by one Marcus the bishop of Ephesus, and other bishops, that they were brought to recant and to declare merely void all that they had done there: yea moreover it is recorded in an ancient register, of the church of Herford, that in 29. articles there also set down, the greek Church differeth quite from your Roman church. And therefore hereby it should seem, that these points of popery which it hath not yet received, were either not at all, or at least not universally received, before the foresaid breach, and that therefore these have not 400 years' continuance on their backs, which comes far short of your account of 1500. years. Further evident and apparent proofs there are to make it utterly without all question, that both these & many other points of the Roman religion, that now is, are far younger than your reckoning. For before the council of Constance in the year 1414. we find not the ministering the communion in both kinds publicly forbid to the common communicant. And in the council of Basil it was permitted again in the year 1431. to the Bohemians to receive under both kinds, & so there, from that day to this, many have used to do. Certain it is (as it appears in the first Epistle of Cyprian) that in his time, with was 260. years after christ, it was by him accounted absurd to deny the cup to any communicant, & the consecratione dist. 2. it is recorded, that Gelasius who was a bishop of Rome about the year 500, made a flat decree to bind all men to receive in both kinds, saying Either let him, that receiveth receive both or neither, because the division of one mystery cannot be without sacrilege, and yet now your Popes & their counsels, which you hold cannot err, condemn it for a cursed heresy, to hold it to be needful, that this sacrament should be received of all communicants in both kinds. And it appears in the same distinction, Cap. peracta; That Pope Calixt (in the year 223) made a flat law contrary to your received use now, of your priests receiving all alone. For there he decrees that consecration being done, all that will not be shut from the church should communicate; for so (saith he) the apostles taught & the fashion them of the Roman church was. How is it them, that your Roman Church that now is, contrary to this ancient decree, thus grounded both upon the authority of the Apostles, & the practice then of that church, in this point now practiseth the quite contrary? Transubstantiation the very life of your mass, your own doctor Tonstal in his book of the sacrament, & divers other of your friends as I have showed before Cap. 11. confess was not enacted & decreed for a catholic truth amongst yourselves, before Innocent the 3 time, 1215 in the Lateran council, which was after the greek church was gone from you, & so it was rather the decree of a particular assembly, then of the Catholic Church, and therefore no marvel though the Greeks reject this your council and decree. Your own schoolmen, Canonists and Chroniclers, as Durand, Albertus, Gabriel Biel, Innocentius, Vrspergensis and others, show from point to point and from piece to piece, who invented & devised your mass, withal the ceremonies thereof, as also Polidor in his 5. book and 9 Chapter of the inventors of things, and Platina in the lives of the Popes, and namely, in the life of Pope Sixtus the first. It was so long a licking before it came to the shape it now hath, and was patched together, as it appears in these and other your own writers, by so many Popes so long distant one from an other in time, that it would require a good pretty long treatise, to set down the several shreds and morsels thereof, with the authors and devisers of them. Which things considered, it is the likest a beggars cloak, consisting of an infinite sort of patches, at sundry times and of sundry colours sowed and cobbled together, that can be. The mass now used in your church, commonly called S. Gregory's mass was first received and established in the time of Pope Adrian 780. years after Christ (at the least, for others accounted it more) as witnesseth Durand, Nauclere, & jacobus de voragine in the life of Gregory the first, for before that, S. Ambrose liturgy was much in use. And the last of these authors reports, that when with much a do, Adrian had got it to be decreed in a council, that S. Gregory's mass should be universally used, and Charles the Emperor had laboured both by fair and foul means, to cause the same decree to be executed, and yet many would hardly be drawn from the use of Saint Ambroses', one Eugenius seeing this stir about it, gave the Pope this grave advise, that the books of both the Liturgies should be laid upon the altar of S. Peter, and that the Church doors should carefully be shut and sealed with the signets of sundry Bishops, and that then they should give themselves all that night to earnest prayer, that God by some evident sign, might show which of them he would have to be used: whose counsel being in every point followed, in the next morning, when they went into the church, they found (as saith the story) only S. Ambrose book opened and lying upon the altar, and the leaves of the other scattered all over the church, whereupon Adrian the Pope, like a profound interpreter of visions, gathers that it was the Lords meaning thereby to show, that S. Ambroses' liturgy might well be used upon his own altar at Milan, but the other should be used generally over all churches, and thus the credit of Saint Gregory's mass was first established. Howbeit before transubstantiation came in, which was not, as I have said, before the year 1215, it was nothing the minion that it hath been since. And yet even then, it was not grown to her highest credit, for about five years after it was, ere that adoration or elevation of the host was decreed, for than first Honorius the 3 enacted that; and the host's holiday, commonly called Corpus Christi day, was not made before Pope Urbans time, in the year 1260. as witnesseth Polydore in his 6 book and 8 Chapter of the inventors of things. Whereupon it may evidently appear, that the mass as it is now, is but a very youngling, and one of her father the Pope's youngest daughters. And as for latin service her companion, it was first brought into England, by one Theodorus sent hither by Pope Vitellian, about the year 657. And to proceed to other points of Popery (as it is well known) it is an other most principal point of your religion, to attribute unto the Pope that universal supremacy over all bishops and over the whole Church of Christ, that you do, for you have made it an article under pain of damnation to be received, that there is no salvation, but under his obedience and within his communion, as it is set down by Boniface the 8, in his extravagant de maioritate & obedientiâ. And yet in the 6 Canon of the Nicene council, holden about the year 330. (as some count) it appears, that then the Roman bishop had his bounds and limits prescribed him, aswell as the other patriarchs. And the general council of Chalcedon, and the 6. general council, held at Constantinople, determined Can. 36. that the bishop of that see should have equal privileges with the bishop of old Rome, 680 years after Christ. And appeals to Rome were forbidden, under pain of excommunication, in the council of Milevitan. Cap. 22. and of Africa Cap. 92. Further yet your own proper and late counsels of Constance and Basil, have not long ago greatly curtolled the supremacy, that now the Pope chalength, for they have decreed, that the authority of a general council is so far above him, that thereby he may be condemned and deposed. And though now according to your Canon Dist. 40. cap. si papa, your pope's will be lawless, & may not by any be controlled, though be lead people headlong by heaps to hell, as it is there set down: yet I read that in Pope Symachus time, about the year 500 after Christ, that many bishops did accuse him then to Theodoricus king of the Goths, because he took upon him to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, one whose will should be a law. And in the council of Carthage the th●●, there was a decree made Cap. 26. against sundry ambitious 〈◊〉 challenged even then, as it should seem, to be due unto the bishop● of Rome, as that they should not be called Prince of Priests, 〈…〉 priest, but bishops of the first see. And howsoever now Ho●ius, Belarmine and others, reckon the title of ecumenical or universal bishop amongst the due and just titles of the Pope, yet it is flatly set down, as a thing unlawful, and is forbid in the 99 distinct●●●, 〈◊〉 by the judgement of Pelagius, bishop of Rome in the year 58●● by Gregory the first his successor. And it is well known, that Gregory very directly and often condemned this title both in john bishop of Constantinople, and in all other bishops, himself and the bishops of the see of Rome not excepted, as it is evident, in his 4 book of Epistles, Epi. 30, 38.88. & in his 9 book, Ep. 45. Your set days of fasting you learned of Montanus; & your placing so necessary a point of fasting in abstinence from flesh, of the Manichees; as it appears in Aug. 74. Epist. wherein you are as deep as either they or any other heretics ever were, witness your own Dur. li. 6. c. de ieiuniis. For he there giveth this as a reason, why in fasting flesh is rather abstained from then fish, because all flesh was accursed, and not all fish in the days of Noe. And compare Augustine's description of the Manichees fasts with yours, in his 2 book de moribus Manicheorun Cap. 13. and you shall find them marvelous like. Further what holiness soever you imagine to be in your forbidding your clergy marriage, and how ancient soever you would persuade the simple and ignorant; that that order is, any man may see that reads Augustine's foresaid 74 Epistle, & his 18 Chapter of his second book de moribus Manicheorum, as the Manichees & Tatimists learned to condemn marriage, as they did of the Ethnics (as Clemens Alexandrinus thinketh they did Stromat. 3) so you have learned this your kind of forbidding your clergy (as you call them) marriage of them. For there it appears, that they allowed it amongst their ordinary hearers, & forbade it only to those that studied perfection, and were the chosen once to the ministry amongst them, even as you do. But whatsoever either you or they say, or have said to the contrary, for the justifying of this your antichristian devise, as it is most clear to any that readeth but the old testament, that marriage was as allowable to the Lords priests then, and as honourable accounted both of God and good men, so 〈◊〉 less clearly doth it appear in the new 1. Cor. 9 & 1. Tim. 3. that the like opinion was retained both of the honorablenes and lawfulness thereof, for Apostles, Evangelists, and all other ministers of the Lord, insomuch that Paul in the first of these places (howsoever you papists seeking to hide his plain meaning, disorder his words & read a woman, a sister; for a sister, a wife) showeth not only, how the brethren of the Lord and Cephas carried their Christian wives up and down with them, but that also it was lawful for them so to due, & to take maintenance where they preached, for themselves & theirs, & that he & Barnabas if they listed might lawfully even do so also. Insomuch that S. Paul. 1. Tim. 4, doth flatly avouch the denial or forbidding thereof, not only as the Manichees & some other heretics have forbidden it, as a filthy & unlawful estate in itself (with yet if your own report be true) was Siritius opinion dist. 82, & is still Gregory martin's, discou. ca 11.) but even as the wisest of you, defend now the denying of it to your clergy, under the pretence of more holiness in abstaining there from, for a plain doctrine of devils. For especially he speaketh of them there, that should in the later days do so, in hypocrisy. And therefore the better altogether to preserve men from this vanity & impiety, he pronounces marriage to be honourable & the marriage bed, to be undefiled, He. 13. And therefore Ignatius in his Epist. to the Philadelphians saith flatly, that to say the contrary cometh of the devil, & upon this ground Dionysius Corinthiacus labours to persuade Pynitus the bishop of the Gnosians (as we read Eus. l. 4. ca 22.) that he did not impose an unnecessary & too heavy a burden of single life upon the brethren, yea even your own Gratian could not dissemble or deny, but that 300. years after Christ, the council of Gangra pronounced him accursed the would or should more refuse the ministry of one that is married, them of one unmarried, & the also there is an ancient Canon fathered upon the Apostles to the same end dist. 28. Indeed it should seem that in Clement Alexandrinꝰ time which was about 200 year after Christ, that there were some that then begun to urge the single life of the ministers, but he calls such proud bragger's & such as God will resist, showing them by many examples, reasons & places of scripture the lawfulness both of the marriage of such & of the use thereof, & that the denying it them, was the plain doctrine of devils spoken against by Paul 1. Tim. 4. Stro. 3. yet it was attempted again, as we read it was often before that particularly, so in the first council of Nice generally, to be established, that men once entered into the ministry, might neither marry, nor yet accompany with their wives married before: but there also it was so withstood by one Paplinutius, that they gave over that their attempt. And consequently, by that 〈◊〉 ●●●cel, that which (as some writ) was decreed before in the 〈◊〉 counsel of Elybert and Arles to the contrary, was so repea●●● 〈◊〉 weakened, that thence forth it was thereby left free unto ministers to accompany with their lawful wives, as to other men. 〈…〉 the sixth general council held at Constantinople, whatsoever had any where before that been attempted to the contrary, which was 680. years after Christ, we find restraint of their marriage so condemned, that there it is decreed, that it should be lawful for them to marry, and to enjoy the company of their wives, and that whosoever would go about to debar them thereof, should be deposed. And in making of this decree, the fathers in that council assembled, do say, that therein they have followed the Apostles sincere Canons, and the constitutions of holy men (howsoever Epiphanius lib. 2. tom. 1. contrary to all truth of the story, writeth, that where such are admitted, the sincere Canons be not kept) and indeed this decree stands in force, & ever since unto this day hath been observed in all the Churches under the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch & under Presbyter johannes in AEthiopia, which are of far larger compass, than ever was the Roman Church in these western parts. Indeed it seemeth by an Epistle write●●s some think, by one Hulderick; as others suppose, by one Volusianus, unto Pope Nicolas, to dissuade him from restraining the clergy of lawful marriage, that Gregory and some others before him (as, if we may believe the popish reporters, Siricius) in the Roman see had been busy in making decrees, to restrain them, but yet that Gregory upon the finding on a time of 6000 infant's heads, in certain ponds, repent thereof and revoked the same, saying, it is better they should marry, than to give such occasion of murder; it should seem that the Epistle was written rather to Nicolas the second, than to Nicolas the first, about the year 867. for then they began to be somewhat busy about the restraining of them. Howbeit they were so resisted herein, that before Pope Hildebrands' time, about the year 1070, or rather Pope Calixts time, in the year 1120, this restraint of theirs took no great place. For Aventinus in historia Boiorum lib. 5. speaking of a council of Hildebrand, saith, that in that time priests openly had wives, and begat children as other Christians, as appeareth, saith he, by sundry instruments, wherein their wives are specified as witnesses, and that called, honesto vocabulo presbyterissaes, that is, by an honest name eldrisses. And the 9 Canon of the 2. counsel of Turon held in the time of Pope Pelagius the first as witnesseth Caranza, and the 14 as writeth Surius tom. 2. conc. And Henry Huntingdon in his 7 book writeth that Anselme archbishop of Canterbury in his time which was about the year 1106. forbade the priests of England marriage (as he saith) not forbid them before: whereupon as he noteth within short time such grievous complaints were brought unto him of their Sodomitry, that he was enforced to make a law against that sin: yet in the making of these laws he dealt so favourably, that whereas to live in marriage with a lawful wife was punished with deprivation, one convict of Sodomitry was only to be accursed with their ordinary excommunication, until he repent & got absolution, which was easy enough to come by. And thus in the judgement of God most justly, they forsaking like Hypocrites the natural and lawful use of marriage, they were given over (as Paul speaketh of the reprobate gentiles Rom. 1.) to their own filthy affections, in that there was nothing more common than filthy fornication & adultery amongst them, or that in their cloisters, they having left the natural use of the woman, one of them lusted towards another, and man with man wrought filthiness, and so, as he there saith, received in themselves such recompense of their error as was meet. These things considered, no marvel, though your gloser upon the 84 distinction be enforced to confess that olim & tempore praeterito, that is, that in ancient and former times they were married: For by these testimonies and by that also which is set down in that distinction it sufficiently appears, that your fashion herein is but of late devised and publicly received amongst your own selves. Your doctrine also of free will, howsoever it was then favoured of the Pelagian heretics, yet it appears, that it was in S. Augustine's time as much misliked of him, & of the true church of Christ, as it is now of us. For he saith, what is there so much presumed of the power of nature, it is wounded, maimed, vexed & lost, it stands need of true confession, & not of a false defence, de natura & gratia Cap. 53. Further, if you will take pains to read him, de gratia & libero arbitro ca 17. de dogmatibus ecclesiae cap 32. de bono perseverantiae ca 6. and in his 11. sermon de verbis apostoli, you shall find him most directly to teach, that of our own selves there is nothing but sin, and that to do well, & will well, cometh wholly of God, which he of his free grace works in us, and that never any of us, did more plainly confute and oppugn your doctrine herein, than he doth. And you know, that he lived 400. years after Christ and more. In like sort your doctrine of iustyfication, in part by man's own merits and satisfactions, howsoever of ancient time the scribes and pharises troubled the Apostolic Churches with the like doctrine, yet was it a doctrine abhorred of the Church of Christ, as blasphemous against the omnisufficient merits, & satisfaction of Christ jesus, our Lord & saviour, & ours of justification freely and fully, solely and wholly by faith only in Christ allowed and received, as sound truth, and doctrine in that point, not only in the Apostles times (as it appears Ro. 3. Gal. 2. & 5.) but also for many 100 years after, even unto very late days. For proof whereof let any man read Origen upon the 3. & 6. of the Romans, Ambrose upon the 3 of the Romans also. Hierom in his book against the Pelagians, upon the 4 to the Romans, & upon the first and 2. to the Gala. Aug. de fide & operibus ca 22. upon the 88 Psa. and in his 22 Chap. of his Manuel: and Hilary in his 8 Canon upon Matthew. See also Basils' 51. hom. de humilitate, Paulinus 58. Epistle to Saint August. amongst Augustine's Epistles; Chrysostome upon the third to the Romans; Theodoret upon the same Chapter; Gregory Nazianzens twenty two oration, and Ruffinus his exposition of the Creed: & you shall not only find all these fathers in all these places, as flatly to teach free & full justification & salvation, to come by faith in Christ alone, without our works at all concurring, as any helping cause thereunto, as any of us now do: but also further, I can & do assure you, that who so will vouchsafe to take the pains, to read Bernard's 23, 61 and 62 Sermons of the Canticles, & his Sermon the 15 of the Psalm, Qui habitat, and his seventy seven Epistle, he shall find, that he (though he were above 1100 years after Christ) was of the same mind. For in these places he plainly confesses, that he for his salvation rested only upon the merits of Christ, and not upon his own at all, counting man's merit to be nothing else, but to trust only in Christ and in God's mercy, withal plainly testifying, that he hoped to have his, solâ fide, by faith only in Christ jesus. Yea your own Thomas Aquine confessed with us, that we are justified by faith instrumentally, and that no virtue inherent in us, can be of the form or essence of our justification. Rom. 4 Ephesians. 2, and in sundry other places of his commentaries upon Paul's Epistles. And Sadolet, upon the Epistle to the Romans acknowledged (doubtless forced thereunto by the power of this truth) that Abraham attulit tantùm fidem, non sua opera, that Abraham brought only faith, & not his own works; & again he saith, quantum quisque affert de suâ iustitiâ, tantum detrahit de divinâ beneficentiâ, that is, how much (in this respect) a man bringeth of his own righteousness, so much he pulleth from God's bountifulness. How far likewise the strength of this truth conquered your great Champion Piggius, with grief Ruard Tapper, and others of your side have noted, & written against him for it. For in the controversy of justification, fol. 61. he in plain terms with us confesses, si formaliter & propriè loquamur, nec fide nec charitate nostrâ iustificamur'sed unâ Dei in Christo iustitiâ, unâ Christi nobis communicatâ justitia: that is, if we speak formally & properly, we are justified neither by faith nor by our charity, but by the only righteousness of God in Christ: by the only righteousness of Christ communicated unto us. And having with us before in the controversy, proved & confessed fol. 46. y all men, even the most righteous, if they should be judged of God, or esteemed according to their own righteousness, by merit and desert, they were to be accursed and condemned, not only for the imperfection of our best righteousness, but also for plain unrighteousness to be found in the best: he proceeds & concludes fol. 47. that our righteousness & hope of salvation with God, consists in the free forgiveness of our sins in Christ, & in that the perfect righteousness of Christ is imputed unto us, having communion with him. And to make his meaning more plain, that he meaneth not by the righteousness of God or Christ, any inherent righteousness of ours, wrought in us that believe, by the spirit of Christ, as our late Jesuits do, but the righteousness that was & is inherent in Christ: he saith, that the righteousness of Christ, whereof he would be understood in this case to speak, is his obedience whereby he fulfilled his father's will in all things, and he expounds or declares the nature of the faith, whereof the Apostle speaketh, Rom. 3. saying, We are justified freely by his grace, by the redemption that is in Christ jesus, whom he hath appointed to be our atonement maker by his blood: to be fiducian & confidentian in sanguine eius, fol. 48. to be a trust and confidence in his blood, thereby alone to be saved: so still avouching fol. 49. his only righteousness imputed unto us, to be the whereby we shall stand & be accounted righteous before God, and him therefore to be unicum & solidum, the alone & sound foundation of our salvation. To conclude therefore this point, I say with junilius Aphricanus (who lived Anno. 440.) lib. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, si quis in Christum crediderit remissis peccatis, potest per solam fidem servari, that is, if any believe in Christ, his sins being forgiven him, he may by faith alone be saved: and with Augustine upon the 31. Psalm. si vis esse alienus a gratia, jacta merita tua: if thou wilt be void of grace, them boast of thy merits. Your doctrine of auricular confession, of praying to Saints, & for the dead, I have at large in my answer to your thirty seven Chapter, showed to be but new doctrines, and of far later stamp than you pretend, and in like manner elsewhere I have showed divers other points of your religion to be, in this answer of mine. And I think you are not ignorant, that that worthy bishop, bishop jewel, here in England, bishop of Salisbury, hath most confidently protested, that for 600. years after Christ, you have no sound ground for 25. articles (whereof the most of them, are about your mass, whereof you glory most) which protestation or challenge of his, he hath hitherto defended, sufficiently against all your objections to the contrary. And therefore whatsoever you brag to the contrary, so much of your religion, as we count it popish for, is and will prove (when you have done what you can) but as the tars Math. 13 that were by Satan subtly and secretly sown in the Lord's field, long after the good seed was sown. And yet we labouring only according to our callings, and that knowledge that God hath given us of his truth out of his written word, to call you from this new found pretended religion of yours, to the ancient and true catholic faith, which we have learned out of the scriptures, and of alsound antiquity: you not only burst out into this vain and monstrously false brags, of the antiquity of yours, and novelty of ours, but also knowing in your own consciences, that your folly therein will soon be descried, you call then for miracles to confirm and warrant this our commission by, which you would feign prove, to be as necessary for us in this case, as it was for Moses in his time, thereby to confirm his. Whereunto I say as upon the like occasion, S. Augustine said in his time, de civitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoever yet seeketh after miracles, that so he may believe, he himself is a monstrous miracle, who the world believing, yet believes not. For if our doctrine be the same, that the Apostles taught (as we are always ready, and by GOD'S grace able to prove it to be, by the undoubted word of God) than their miracles are so many seals of this our doctrine, and so it being thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles, needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now, by new miracles again. But you seem to take it for granted, that we stand either very much, or altogether upon the extraordinarines of our vocation, and therefore supposing that such a vocation must always be confirmed by miracles, you call for them the rather, thus earnestly at our hands. Concerning which point, I have told you already, that though in such ruins of the church, as you had brought it unto, it be no strange thing with God to stir up men extraordinarily, to seek the reformation thereof, as he did many of the Prophets: yet neither the first ministers, which in these later days, he hath used to this end amongst us, nor those that he hath used since, to go on with that which the others began, rely only upon an extraordinary calling, for as I have showed, both the one and the other, have had outward ordinary calling. Besides you must understand, that a man may have an extraordinary calling, as had Nahun, Abdia, & divers other of the prophets, who yet you cannot show, ever wrought any miracles to confirm their calling withal. And to use Chrysostom's words, which he used against such as you, in that commentary upon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father upon him, what miracle wrought john Baptist, which instructed so many and great Cities? For the Evangelist saith he wrought none john. 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say, that he had no lawful vocation or good commission. Again you know by that which is written Deut. 13. & 2. Thes. 2. and elsewhere: that false prophets, yea Antichrist himself, may and shall seek to seduce men, and to draw men from God by miracles, & therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof, that if notwithstanding they suffer themselves, the rather to be perverted thereby, they may be void of all excuse. Wherefore, seeing there have been sundry true prophets extraordinarily called, that yet have wrought no miracles, and also many false prophets, that have wrought them, and may do again; to what purpose should you thus call for miracles, as though they strait might lawfully be refused, that work them not, and they safely always followed, that do them? Howsoever you seem to pretend, that if we should work miracles you would believe us, yet certain it is, that if we should work never so many, you would as little for all that believe us, as the blind and superstitious jews believed Christ and his Apostles, for all the miracles wrought by them: but this is only a shift of yours, as long as you may, to dazzle the eyes of the simple. For questionless if miracles would serve the turn, beside sundry miracles indeed which the stories do testify, have been wrought by God, in the protection and propagation of the religion, which we now profess, even this is a miracle of miracles, that Luther, living in such a time as he did, should do as he did, & to so great effect without miracle, & yet in the end, maugre all his enemies, which were many & mighty, to die quietly, as he did, in his bed. So that all these things considered, it appeareth (I hope) sufficiently to the indifferent reader, that you have no such advantage against us for miracles, and you pretend. But because your objection in this behalf is so eagerly prosecuted by you, I will not refuse to follow you from step to step & to yield you a more particular answer, to whatsoever you have said in this matter. First therefore, whereas you would insinuate to your reader, that we do wrong, in comparing the misery that the poor people were in, under your Popes, to the misery that the people of Israel were in, in Egypt, under Pharaoh; & their deliverance from the Romish yoke, to the deliverance of that people, from the bondage of Egypt: we grant you, we make that comparison sometimes, & we are sure, that therein there is offered no wrong at all unto you. For both in universality, continuannce of time, and extremity both to soul & body, the slavery under your proud antichristian Popes, hath exceeded theirs, under Pharaoh in Egypt: and consequently, the deliverance of the people from that of yours, must needs (being as it is both more spiritual and general, then that of theirs was) much exceed that of theirs. But that therefore, it is as necessary that we should anew work miracles, to confirm our vocation, to do this; as it was for Moses to confirm his calling, to do the other thereby: therein you are both deceived & seek also to deceive others. For Moses by God was showed, that he should so confirm his, and so are not we that we shall or ought so to confirm ours, and his calling thereunto was not only extraordinary, whereas ours in great part at least (as I have showed) hath been to this ordinary, but also the thing itself and the means to bring it to pass, both in the eyes of Pharaoh & all others, were strange & miraculous, whereas in this our case in delivering men from your antichristian servitude, & bringing them to the liberty & freedom purchased for them, by the blood of Christ, by the preaching of the word of God sincerely, & ministering his sacraments accordingly, both are wont & ordinary. For what is more ordinary with God, then to bring men from error to truth, & that by these means in his church? The thing that Moses was sent to do was a new & strange thing: for a man of his quality without force of war & weapons to deliver so great & gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrant, it is wondered, & therefore it was likewise necessary, that the means that he should effect that by, especially should be miracles. Finally there was no certainer way for Moses, having to deal with such an one as he had, them to approve his calling by miracles, whereas ours in this, is far more substantially justified by the scriptures, from whence our doctrine hath warrant, that hath wrought this effect, than it could have by miracles. For as when the law was first published with all the ceremonies thereof, it was needful, because then it was new, that Moses credit the publisher thereof, & the law itself, should be confirmed by miracle, but when in the reign of josiah, Hilkiah the priest found the book of the law, which had lain hid before a long time, & so did but revive or renew the same law, that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles, he wrought no miracles, neither was there any called for, or looked for at his hands, for it was needles. Even so, when the ceasing of the ceremonial service of the law was to end, & the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof, & so withal that then first it should be notified both to jew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messiah, & what new government & sacraments he would have in his house, it was necessary that miracles should be wrought, to confirm the ministry of them, that should teach these new & strange things first unto the world: but now these things having been already then sufficiently confirmed by miracles, we coming in these later days of the world, and not taking upon us, to preach any other doctrine than the former, and so only renewing and reviving the knowledge of that, which by the ignorance and wickedness of former times, had lain in great part hid, no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for. Indeed if it could be proved but once, that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine (as you often in words charge us) that never was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles, or if the manner that we used to revive it by, were any other, but the ancient ordinary way that God hath always allowed in his Church, there were yet some colour of reason, why they should be thus called for at our hands. But seeing we stand upon that point, and have always done, that our religion is the very same, and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught, which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles, and the manner of our dealing to spread the same again, is but the ordinary ministery of the word and sacraments, by them left for the same purpose unto the church, there is no reason at all, in matching us, thus as you do, with Moses, and in requiring miracles of us, as of him. And until you can prove by the scriptures, that the doctrine that we preach is false, which you never shall be able to do, the three places which you cite out of jeremy 14.27. & 29. uttered by him, to admonish the people in his time, to take heed of suffering of themselves to be seduced, with the false and lying Prophets, that were in those days, make nothing at all against us, nor yet appertain to the matter in hand: which was to prove, that seeing we work no miracles, therefore our commission cannot be good, in taking upon us to reform you. For in these places (even by the words as they are set down by yourself) it most evidently appears, that he warned the people to take heed only of such Prophets, as prophesied falsely in the name of God, having no vocation from him, and labouring to seduce the people by false visions, naughty divinations, southsaying and their own dreams: whereas we have ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but truth warranted by his word, and never use, but always abhor the use, of all these means, that they used to seduce the people by. But herein most certain it is, that the Lord most plainly forewarneth his people of such as you be. For you be they indeed, that were never sent of Christ, but of Antichrist, and that preach false doctrine, as doth appear not only by the dissenting, but by the contrariety of your doctrine, in a number of points from the undoubted word of God (as I have noted in sundry places in this my answer to you) and than whom never any false Prophets in the world, more relied upon false visions, divinations, southsaying & fond dreams; for indeed they are the best & most usual pillars, & grounds of your Popish doctrine. For what is more common with you, then to the end these may have place, to complain, and by long rhetorical discourses, to make what show you can, of the obscurity, unsufficiency and uncertainty of the word written; that so with some colour, you may show the trial of your doctrine, by that touchstone, and all because, in your own consciences you know, that it cannot be justified thereby. And then, when thus you have satisfied yourselves in weakening, what you may, the credit of the scriptures, to prepare a way for yourselves to fly from them: than you break out into commendation of the word unwriten, traditions, and lively practice of the church, that so by that window, you may thrust in and out to the Church, whatsoever pleaseth you, be it never so fond a vision, divination or dream of your own drowsy heads. But yet once again, for lack of miracles howsoever the case stand, whither we be sent of God or no, for your refusing to yield unto us, you think you may plead simplicity, and ignorance, for your excuse, as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially (you say) seeing you are willed not to believe every spirit, and seeing you read, that the Angel of darkness, will sometime transform himself into the shape of an Angel of light etc. But withal, you must remember, that you are willed to search the scriptures john 5. & so, to try the spirits, whither they be of God or no 1. joh. 4. For they are able to make the man of God wise to salvation, & thoroughly to furnish him, to all good works. 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought, thereby you shall be driven to perceive, that not only our calling is of God, but that also we teach the truth according to the same, and that therefore, notwithstanding we work no miracles; yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance, as Abimelechs' was, but either wilful, or of an idle peevish negligence, and therefore such as cannot excuse you, in refusing to believe us. And as it is written, that sathan will so transform himself, as you writ, and that we should take heed what way we take, for there is a way that seemeth good, and yet leadeth to destruction: so you must remember that still, the due consideration of the written word, is the means to preserve us from the danger of both. For thereby Christ hath taught us to withstand him Mat. 4. even when he would seem to fortify his temptations with the word written itself; & whereby else shall a young man learn, to frame his ways aright, but by taking heed thereunto according to the same. Psal 119. you must also remember, that it is written, Woe to him that calleth good evil, Esa. 5. & strive to enter in at the straight gate Luk, 13. All this notwithstanding, in your opinion we are like to a false merchant, pretending to be the Prince's servant, in his master's name demanding money of his debtters, having neither his hand nor seal to warrant his demand: and all this you say, & would persuade to be true, because we work no miracles, as the Apostles did. I deny your argument, for we have our Lord & master's hand and seal in his written word, in that thereby our doctrine is taught, & as it appears, thereby is sealed both by miracles & with the precious blood of our lord & saviour: yea but say you, if ye be the Apostles successors, in preaching this doctrine, why do ye not confirm your doctrine with signs and wonders, and say with the Apostle Paul 2. Corinth. 12. the signs of our Apostleship have been accomplished amongst you, with signs and miracles? Hereunto I answer, that then it was necessary for them so to do, and yet now it is not likewise for us, because then for the newness and strangeness of diverse things incident to their ministry, miracles for the first confirmation thereof, for a time were necessary, whereas now, we taking upon us only to preach the same doctrine, as we do, it being then thereby sufficiently confirmed, it is needles now to confirm it again thereby.    


The XVIII. Chapter.  
YOu 
a And so we may still, for any reason that you do show to the contrary.  do answer us, as the jews were answered by Christ, when they did demand him to show some miracles. 
* Mat. 12.  The generation adulterous & perverse doth demand signs, but no sign shallbe given them etc. But this comparison cannot be applied unto us, for we are not so hard of belief as the jews, nor you such faithful messengers of God, as Christ was, of whom the jews did demand some signs of obstinate hatred, after they had seen so many lame healed, so many blind receive their sight, so many deaf hear, and so many dispossessed that had spirits: but as for you, 
b The power of our commission hath stretched so far, as to the heart's grief of all your Synagogue, your Romish Babylon is so fallen, that ye even despair of ever recovering the glorious pomp, of your Babylonish harlot again.  we have seen your commission not to have extended so far, as to restore a fly to life again, or to heal a lame goose, although that greater matters are required to confirm so strange and so new a reformed Gospel. These words do make you mad, crying out and preaching in every place, that your church ought 
c We say and preach thus, and we are well able to stand to it.  not to be called new, but rather, that it is old & Apostolical, & that your doctrine is the very same, that S. Peter & S. Paul did preach. And to draw the simple people to believe that, that you say, you do declare your faith, saying that you do believe, & do preach, that there is one God in Trinity of persons, and the second, which is our saviour became man from the womb of the virgin, and that he suffered and did rise again, & to be brief, you show, that you have profited in your Religion, for you have been but forty years (which is the time since it began) in learning the great creed, & the Pater noster, the which you could not learn in a thousand and five hundred of ours. But in all this you say nothing to the purpose: for we do not demand of you, whether you can well your Catechism, 
d If we had had no better catechisers than you, we should never aright have understood, either Creed, the Lords prayer, or the commandments.  the which you having learned of us, you teach to others. And as Samson said: jud. 15. If you had not laboured with my cow, ye would never have hit my riddle. That is to say, that if that our Church had not nursed or taught you, which are her rebellious children, you would have known nothing: for it is of our Church, that you have learned the principles of your faith. 
e Howsoever these had t●●ir bringing up and maintenance for a time amongst you, they had their learning & true knowledge no more from you, than Paul had of the Pharises.  She is the Cow that hath nourished Caluin in a Canonrie of Noyon, & Theodore de Beza in the Priory of Lovinnam hard by Paris: and consequently all the other ministers, which have learned all that they know, at the convent of S. Francis, S. Dominick, S. Augustine, and of S. Bennet, where ye were nourished spiritually, as touching your doctrine: and temporally, as touching the maintaining of your study, at the charge of that church, against the which ye do now so strive, 
f These & others have sought to be thankful to you for these things, as Paul sought to be thankful for the like, to the Pharisees and jews, in seeking their reformation and conversion.  as the camels, which sometime reward their masters for their good keeping with jerking & biting: so that colour it how you list, ye cannot deny, but that ye set forth new devices. For although it is so, that your heresies (which to please the ears of the unlearned, ye call the reformed Gospel & pure word of God) have been in times past, 
g This is but your spiteful vain of popish railing, without either truth, honesty or reason.  yet they were buried in the very depth of hell, & you have raised them again, cloaked with new colours. But although it were so, that your doctrine were not new, but very old, 
h If either our office or errand were extraordinary, you say somewhat, but both being ordidinary, there is no like reason, that miracles should be wrought by us as by them.  yet ought not you to be more privileged than Moses and the Prophets, whose simple and plain words the world would not believe, although they preached no new doctrine, no more than you say that you do. Moses did show many miracles in Egypt, and why? was the principal cause to deliver the children of Israel out of the captivity of Pharaoh? No surely: for to what purpose, I pray you, should God show such great power and might against a simple worm of earth? Is it like to be true, that he should move the whole heavens with such great darkness, 
* i Exod. 19  to send so many notable plagues, to bring him to yield, which had confessed his wickedness, for the torment that he suffered with the flies, the frogs, and Grasshoppers? Surely no, he himself doth show the cause, it is to the end, that my name be known over all the earth: that is to say, that men should know, that he is God. If we come to the Apostles, we shall find likewise, that their doctrine was not new: for when they begun to preach unto the gentiles & Idolaters, 
i For the 9  they did not at the first preach jesus Christ, but they did seek to blot out of the minds of the simple people, the foolish opinion that they had in the multitude of Gods, & to teach them, that there was but one God, who had created the heaven & earth, who sendeth rain in time of need, & all things else that are required for the sustenance of man. 
k This he preached but this was not all, & therefore he preaching somewhat that was new, both to jew and Gentile, namely, that jesus was the Christ: therefore in that respect he & his fellows had need to confirm their doctrine, by signs and wonders.  This is the doctrine that S. Paul did preach, as we read in the 
* Act. 14.  Acts. This doctrine was not new among men, although it were so, that they were paynim: 
l And therefore you bestow much needless cost, to prove this point, no new doctrine, touching the unity of the godhead, and the verity thereof.  for not only in Moses law, nor in the law of Grace, but even by the law of Nature, God hath been known, even of those which were not of the family of Abraham, Isaac, & jacob, unto whom the promise of the incarnation of Christ was made. Of this doth Abimilech the King of Gerar bear witness, who did excuse himself before God, for the wife of Abraham: he could never have known, how to talk thus with God, if he had not known him. 
* Gen. 20.  Besides this, he made Abraham to swear by the invocation of the said God, that neither he, nor his heirs should suffer any damage by his posterity. 
* Gen. 24.  Bathuel did likewise know God, when he confessed, that he was the author of the marriage of his daughter with Abraham's son: even so Abimilech the king of the Palestines, & Phicol & Ochosath said unto Isaac: We hear that God is with thee, & therefore we are come to make alliance together. 
* ᵐ Judg. 2.  Adonibezeth, although he were a Gentile, did not he confess one God, 
m judg. the first you would say.  when he said, that he had given him the selfsame punishment, that he had given the .70. kings? job & all his friends, although they were Gentiles, have avouched one God to be the Creator of heaven & earth, even aswell as the Israelites, as it doth appear by the discourse of the said job. If we read the histories of the Paynims, we shall find, that they bear witness of one God among themselves. Diogenes Laertius, ● the lives of the Philosophers, doth write, that the Emperor Adrian did demand of a Philosopher celled Secundus, what God was? He answered: God is an immortal spirit, incomprehensible, containing all the world, a light, and a sovereign goodness. True it is, that this Secundus was bolder to speak of God, than another Philosopher called Simonides; of whom Tully doth write in his first book De naturâ deorum, unto whom, when the tyrant Hiero did demand of him, what God was, & that he had given him divers days of respuit to answer him, at the last he said, that he did acknowledge in him an infinite of all things. Cicero himself in the first question of his Tusculans, doth govern & give the being to all things. And in divers places of that work he doth well express, that he knew well, that there was one God, and that the Gods that the Gentiles did worship, were but mortal men. And in the said book he saith, that we know God by his works, in the which he doth not much differ from David, saying: 
* Psal. 18.  That the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament doth anounce his works. And in the 40. Chapter of Esay, when God did talk with the Gentiles, he did call his works to bear witness of his greatness. Lift up your eyes (saith he) and behold who hath made this. And the 
* Sap. 13:  Sage doth say, that men through their vanity have not known God by his works. And 
* Rom. 1.  Saint Paul doth absolutely condemn them, saying, that they can procure no excuse of ignorance, for the invisible things (such as is the divinity of God) may be known by the visible things. And therefore they are unexcusable, having hidden the truth of God to unjustice: for after that they have known him, they have not given him that thanks and honour, that they should have done, but they have been deceived through their own subtility, & making a profession of knowledge, they have been found foolish and ignorant. S. Augustine. 8. lib. de Ciu. dei. cap. 24. doth reckon Mercurius, called Hermes Trimegistus, among these, forasmuch as he did continue in his own error, although he knew by that (that one may see in his own writings) that his ancestors did ere greatly in the making and worshipping of so many Gods.   

The XVIII. Chapter.  
Indeed even as you suppose, in this case, we further answer you, as the jews were answered by Christ, telling you that you are an adulterous and perverse generation, in thus demanding signs to confirm a doctrine, already of ancient time sufficiently confirmed. But this answer (you say) cannot be justly made to you, because neither we are faithful messengers from God as Christ was, nor you so hard hearted as these jews were. Truth it is, we dare not compare in faithfulness with Christ, for such comparison were odious, but with S. Paul we protest, that in serving the God of our fathers, according to that Religion which you count heresy, believing all that is written in the law & the Prophets, we have always endeavoured to keep a good conscience both before God and man Act. 24. and as for you, we see no cause to the contrary, but that you may both for malice against the truth, and hard heartedness, be compared with the jews. For though we work no miracles, and they then had seen Christ to work many, yet our doctrine being the same that he taught and no other (as we are always ready and willing to prove it to be by the scriptures) it hath been confirmed not only by all the miracles that then Christ had wrought, but also by all them that since were wrought by him or his Apostles, to confirm the same: and therefore you yet refusing to believe it, show as great hardness of hart, as they did & rather more. Indeed if we took upon us, either any callings not warranted by the Lord in his word, or to preach any doctrine which we could not warrant by the canonical scriptures, you might with some reason call for some miracles of us: but seeing you can prove neither of these against us, you may with more reason give over this objection, then to pursue it any further. Indeed we are not ashamed to confess, that these are two principal reasons, which are here remembered by you, whereby we prove our Religion to be the true & ancient Catholic faith, taught by the Apostles, and ever since continued in Christ's true Church: namely first, for that by the Canonical scriptures, we can prove it to be the same that they preached, seeing it cannot be denied, but their preaching and writing agreed; and secondly, because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient grounds of the Catechism, the ten commandments, the articles of the faith, the Lords prayer etc. And for these causes indeed, we most confidently say and avouch, that you do us extreme wrong, the truth & soundness of these two reasons notwithstanding, either to call our Church or Religion new, or thus to call for miracles to confirm it now, as though it had never been confirmed thereby before. But in all this, with you we say nothing to the purpose: yet with the indifferent Reader (I hope) it is to good and great purpose, seeing hereby we labour to prove, that our church and Religion is not new, and but of 40. years continuance, as here most untruly you charge it: but old & ancient, because it agreeth in every point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechism. All you say to confute this argument of ours, is, that we have learned our Catechism of you, & otherwise we should not or could not have come by it. Whereunto I answer, that if we had had no better Catechisers than you, we had yet been but badly Catechised: and this further you may be sure of, your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so cracked with us, if we had not found these parts of the Catechism, either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed, and grounded in the Canonical scriptures, upon your credit we had not received them: besides, as I have plentifully showed in the 4. Chapter, we have had in all ages, from Christ down to our own, very many of our own Religion, that have continued, and from hand to hand delivered unto us, these parts of the Catechism, more sound and faithfully than you have done, so that, if you had never been, we should far better and sooner have learned these things. But in the most wise providence of God, these were in some sort also continued amongst you, that so you might be the more without excuse, in that, notwithstanding the light that might have shined unto you thereby, you yet choosed rather to walk in gross and palpable darkness, then in the light thereof. And therefore sathan the Prince of darkness, in your Synagogues, through the help of his vicar general your Pope, and his Chaplains, never ceased until by one blind and hellish persuasion or other (whatsoever Paul had taught to the contrary 1 Corint. 14.) he brought to pass, not only, that all your liturgy and service should be in Latin, and rather lying legends permitted to be read, in the Churches publicly in the mother tongue, than the Scriptures of God: but also that these portions of the Catechism should, either not be learned at all, or else only in the Latin and unknown tongue, which he knew was all one in effect. Otherwise then thus, by your good wills (how little soever we had understood the latin tongue) we should not, nor could not be suffered to learn them, and therefore this learning being altogether without edification, neither is there any cause why you should brag that we have learned our Catechisms of you, nor why we should accounted ourselves any thing in your debt for the same. Further to make it yet more appear, how little beholden we are to you, for teaching us the Catechism, let us but a little consider even your most diligent Catechising of men in these three parts thereof, here named by you, the ten commandments, the creed, and the lords prayer. First, concerning the ten commandments, in steed of one God, which there we are commanded to have, you in teaching us to worship Saints, Angels, your breaden God, and your Pope, as you do, have taught us to worship so many more Gods than one; and secondly, that your images and idols might stand to the enritching of your clergy with the idolatrous offerings unto them, it was and is a common trick with you, in setting down the commandments in your Catechisms and elsewhere, to leave the second commandment quite out, which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them, and yet lest you should of every one be spied, in finding them but 9 you divide the tenth into two. And as for the other 2. commandments of the first table, by your ordinary & most common practice, the people were taught (whatsoever is there to the contrary) that it very well becometh them of your school, usually to swear by a number of things that are no Gods, and to season all their common talk, with oaths of all sorts: and to turn the day which should be kept holy to the Lord, to a day of the greatest vanity and impiety of all the days of the week. And to proceed to the second table, never did the jews more make the 5. commandment of none effect, for love of their Corban, than you have done to maintain your infinite orders of monks, friars & nuns, in all contempt and neglect of duty to their parents, if once you could entice them into those cloisters. How precious soever blood be, yet so small a matter hath it been with you, that your Synagogue is drunk with the blood of God's saints, and every varlet is not only easily dispensed withal with you, but also often much commended if he can, though never so traitorously imbrue his hands, for the furtherance of your kingdom in the blood of subject or Prince, brother, or of whom soever else. And as for adultery or fornication, yea for sins against nature not to be named, your great Catechisers never have seemed to make reckoning of; in that notwithstanding they know, that these have followed in such infinite measure upon their enforced single life, in every corner, that the stench thereof hath long ago reached up unto heaven to pull down Gods fierce vengeance against you, yet rather than they would let go this trick of hypocrisy, they are contented that this ●ench increase still. Your infinite and open sacrileges, in building & founding your cloisters and Prelacies, in sp●●●ing the several parishes of their ordinary maintenance for their ministers, & other your innumerable & unsatiable pillings & polings of God's Church: your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you count heretics, and your ordinary doctrine, that bare concupiscence, ●s no sin, show, what Catechisers you are for the rest. And whereas in the creed, we be taught indeed to believe only in the Trinity, in that you usually teach us to trust, yea in the matter of salvation, to a number of things besides, and to pray unto saints and Angels, it being plainly taught us in the word that beside God, there is not saviour Esa. 43. and that Christ's name is the only name of salvation Act. 4. and that none are to be called upon, in whom we believe, not) Rom. 10. you teach us to believe in many things and persons besides the Trinity, & so to be apostates from our creed & form of baptism. And besides, whiles you teach us this doctrine of invocation of saints and Angels, contrary both to the beginning and end of the Lords prayer: you also teach us to pray unto them, to whom we may neither begin nor end our prayer, as thereby we are taught. And therefore you dealing with us in these points and diverse others, being so gross as it is, and was (if we had had no better warrant to receive these parts of the Catechism, than your word) we should have had small courage, to have received them as from you. But Caluin, Beza, and other of our famous ministers in the teeth, with having their education and maintenance at their books first with you, comparing them in that now they set themselves against your corruptions unto Camels, with reward their masters for their good keeping, with jerking and biting. Whereas in truth (if you had grace to see it) they could no way show themselves more thankful unto you for the same; then by careful and diligent labouring your conversion, and reformation, as they have done. S. Paul (you know) was brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, a notable Pharisee, & was himself at the first by profession a Pharisee, and so had his education and maintenance at the first, amongst such: what then? will you resemble him to your jerking Camels, because after, when it pleased God to open his eyes, and to convert him to Christ, he preached and wrote against the errors of the Pharises, & laboured their reformation? why should you then even for imitating of S. Paul, thus unmannerly compare these men, or any other, whom it shall please God to stir up in like manner to seek your good.  
Still you call our Religion new devices, & now further you add, that though it have been in times past, yet it was buried in the very depth of hell, & we have raised it up again, & given it new colours. All this cannot make us ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, which we know to be the power of God to salvation, to every one that believeth, to the jew first, & also to the Graecian: Rom. 1.16. For these are but bare words, how spiteful & malicious soever, and we know that when it was preached by Christ himself, and his Apostles, it had as hard sentence oft given of it, by the superstitious and blind Scribes and Pharises; and yet for all that, it mightily prevailed then, and so doth and will now. Yet it is well, that in some sort now you will confess, it hath been before: for very confidently before in your 4. chapter you set down, that none of us can deny, but the Luther 1517. begins it first: but as you did well in this, and spoke truly, so in adding, that it was yet buried etc. you speak not only maliciously and blasphemously, as one day (though I fear to late) you shall be driven to see; but also untruly. For you cannot be ignorant, but as it was before Luther's time professed and taught by Petrus Valdus, john Wickliff, & john Hus; so therein they had their followers, in Bohemia, Calabria, Angronia & divers other places, and that in great numbers even unto Luther's time, and long after. And as for colours, we use none to countenance this truth, but the native & natural colours, which the scriptures allow it: for we think it most sincerely preached, when it is most simply set forth only in these colours: other colours we leave to you, to deck up the garish whore of Babylon withal. At last (so earnest a proctor, or crier are you for miracles) that you are contented to join with us upon this point, that though our doctrine were not new, but very old, yet we must & aught to confirm it by miracles, And this you labour to prove, because the doctrine that Moses & the Apostles were sent to preach, was not new, but old, & yet they were furnished with power to work miracles, to confirm that old & ancient doctrine. For Moses wrought his miracles (you say) especially to this end, the God's name might be known over all the earth, that is to say, that men should know, that he is God: & the Apostles (as you say) at their first preaching, preached not jesus Christ unto the Gentiles, but that there was but one God: which by a number of testimonies you labour to prove was no new doctrine to the heathen & paynim; but a thing, which by the light of nature left in them, and by the view of God's works, many of them attained unto, & all might in such sort, as that they are without excuse, for that they worshipped not God, as God. This is (I confess) directly to the matter, and some show these things carry (I grant) of proof of that, which you took in hand thereby to prove. But if we examine well those things, and weigh the weight of this argument, we shall find small, or rather no force at all therein, to prove indeed the thing intended thereby. For though God say Exod. 9 not 19 (as your quotation is) that for this cause he had set Pharaoh up, to show his power in him, and to declare his name throughout the whole world (as in working of all miracles at all times, that is an especial end that the Lord hath.) And though that be no new doctrine, that he is God, and but one, and that both Moses and the Apostles taught this: yet this proveth not, but that otherwise both Moses and they had new and strange matters given them in commission, for confirmation and effecting whereof, it was necessary for them to work miracles. For Moses especially was called, and appointed by God (as it appeareth Exod. 3.4. and 5. Chapters) to this end, to signify unto Pharaoh, that it was the pleasure of God, that he should dismiss his people. Which because the Lord had purposed (notwithstanding the hard heart of Pharaoh) to bring to pass, therefore Moses was by his direction to work the miracles, he wrought. So that the next end of working of them, was to confirm this his new and strange message to Pharaoh, and to cause it to take place, though therein the Lord had another further end, namely thereby to get himself a name for ever. So in like manner, though the Apostles preached the God that made heaven & earth, to be the only true God (as it appeareth they did, Act. 14. & 17.) which was no new doctrine indeed in itself considered, yet it appeareth in the same places, that it was new there. For in the one place, they worshipped jupiter and Mercury for Gods; and in the other, an unknown God. And besides it is evident, that not only their office was extraordinary, in that immediately they had their calling from God, and their charge without limitation: but also that within the compass of their commission they had to do many new and strange things; namely, to call the Gentiles to the fellowship of the Church, to preach the abrogation of Moses ceremonies, to administer new sacraments, to ordain new officers in the Church, as Evangelists, pastors, and doctors, and especially, to preach jesus Christ to be the person of the Messiah, god and man, the only and sole Saviour of the world: for which things sake, it was needful for them to work miracles, howsoever it was needless in respect of the other old doctrine concerning the one true God. And therefore to make it appear, that their miracles were wrought especially for the confirmation of this point, that jesus was the Christ, & the person of the Messiah, always they work their miracles in his name, whereas we do not preach some one point of old doctrine only, but altogether from point to point our doctrine is old, and hath been sufficiently by Christ and his Apostles already confirmed by miracles: neither have we any new, but the old ordinary offices of pastors and doctors to publish it: and indeed, we take upon us no new or strange thing, but labour as nigh, as possibly we can, to conform ourselves every way to the pattern showed us of ancient time, by Christ and his Apostles. Wherefore, unless as you have showed, that Moses and the Apostles taught this one old lesson, that there is but one God, and that he is he that made heaven & earth: so ye could have showed also that they wrought all their miracles to confirm that, & that otherwise besides that they had no new & strange things to do & teach, for confirmation whereof, miracles were needful, & therefore done by them, this that you say of them is nothing to bind us to work miracles, doing nothing, or teaching nothing otherwise then was done and taught 1500. years ago and more, by Christ and his Apostles: and so you might have spared all that you have said, or can say, to prove, that this is an old, and no new doctrine, that there is a God, & that he is but one.    


The XIX. Chapter.  
LActantius Firmianus in his book of his divine institutions. cap. 5. writing against the Gentiles, doth prove, that there is but one God, & he doth allege as witnesses, all the old learned Philosophers, such as Thales Milesius, Pythagoras, Anaxagoras, Cleanthus, Anaximeus, Crysippus, Heno, Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, and others. Octavius likewise, a Christian Orator, disputing against Cecilius, as then a Gentle, doth allege likewise, to confound these old Philosophers, and he doth add more, Xenophon, Spensippus, Demaritus, Strato, Theophrastus & many more. 
* ᵃ Act. 12.  S. Paul likewise, preaching to the Athenians, doth protest, 
a Act. 17. you should have said.  that he doth teach them no new thing, but rather him whom they did worship, & did not know. By the which it is plainly to be seen, that the Apostles did not announce unto the people any new law, for it was very old, and notwithstanding, they did confirm it with miracles. And if you say, that although those learned Philosophers had acknowledge of God, as it doth appear by their works: yet there is found in them no mention of jesus Christ, and therefore, that it was necessary to approve that doctrine with signs and miracles. But contrariwise, that you in your new reformed Gospel, do preach the old Apostolical law, I do answer you to this, that the 9 Sybilles' 
b Though it was foreseen that such a one should come, yet that jesus the son of Mary was he, was new, and needed such confirmation by miracles.  did speak of his coming and birth, even as plainly as any of the Prophets: and amongst other Sibylla Erithrea did as fully Prophesy of the coming of our Saviour to judge the quick and the dead, as any other Prophet; at S Augustine doth testify. 
c There is nothing once sounding that way. In other places I grant he speaketh hereof, but he no where th●s matcheth them with the Prophets.  Lib. 1. de civi. dei. cap. 23. Likewise of his death and passion, and of the miracles he should do before his death. The Oracles of the false Gods have likewise declared unto the Gentiles the coming of Christ, as Lactantius Firmianus doth write, 
* Li●. 1. cap. 15.  li. 4. cap. 15. in his book of the divine institutions. Nicephorus in like manner doth write how Augustus Cesar sacrificing to the God Apollo Pithius in his temple could get no other but a very brief answer, than Cesar did demand why he could not make him then as fully answer as he did at other times, Apollo was constrained to say the truth, the which was, that a young Hebrew child borne of late, did command him to retire himself into his hell, 
d You text and your margin agree ●o●y our margin is right and the other wrong.  unto whom he was forced to yield obediently, forasmuch as he was God, and governor of the other Gods, & therefore that he did counsel the said Cesar quietly to retire himself, & to make no more ado: the verses are these. 
Me puer Hebraeus, divos deus ipse gubernans,  
Cedere sede ●ubet, tristemque redire sub orcum:  
Aris ergo dehinc tacitus abscedito nostris.    

The XIX. Chapter.  
YOur proofs in this Chapter, out of Lactantius and Octavius, that the doctrine of one God is old and ancient, in that they induce the old learned Philosophers as witnesses thereof: and that which you allege to the same end, spoken by S. Paul Act. 17. and not (as your quotation is) Act. 12. might well enough have been omitted. For as it is a thing not in question, so also (as you may perceive, by that which I have said in mine answer to your former Chapter) it proveth not the thing you intent: for that both Moses and the Apostles had other matters in their commission, that were new and strange, for confirmation whereof they wrought their miracles, and not for this purpose only. But foreseeing, that we would in some part answer (as I have showed) that the doctrine of jesus to be the person of the Messiah, yet was new, in respect whereof it was necessary for them, to approve their doctrine by miracles: you would prove, that that was not new neither, and so your meaning is, that the oldness of our doctrine cannot prove miracles to be unnecessary. But let us hear, how you prove this. In this Chapter you prove it, by the testimony of the nine Sibyls, especially of Sibilla Erithrea, the rather for Augustine's testimony of her, in his 1. book of the city of God, c. 23. though indeed there be no mention at all of her in that place: who (you say) did speak as plainly & fully of his coming, birth, miracles, death, & coming to judgement, as any of the Prophets: out of Lactantius 1. book, & 15. c. of divine institutions: & out of Nicephorus, by the oracle that Apollo gave of him to the gentiles, & namely to Augustus Cesar: which profess though they were granted to be of sufficient force, to prove that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the coming, manner of coming, & office of such a Messiah, yet they prove not, but that it was notwithstanding a thing new and not understood to most of them: neither do they at all prove, but that still the doctrine concerning the particular person of that Messiah, namely that jesus the son of the virgin Mary, whom the jews crucified, was he, & no other, was a new doctrine both to jew and gentile, and therefore in that respect, it was necessary for the Apostles (for all these things) to confirm that by miracle: whereas now amongst us, that bear any way the name of Christians, that doctrine is not new, neither any thing else that we preach, but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is new, and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient, why the Apostles should work miracles, and not we. This also I cannot but tell you of, that howsoever the Sybilles' are reported to have prophesied of Christ, your comparison is very odious, when you say, they did it as fully, and as plainly as any of the Prophets: and that you wrong Augustine too too much, in making your Reader believe, that he either in the place quoted by you, or any where else joineth with you in that malapert comparison. But these comparisons of yours argue the profaneness of the spirit, that directeth your pens.    


The XX. Chapter.  
THUS you see that jesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles, before the coming of the Apostles, who notwithstanding this, did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach, with many notable miracles, although they did not teach but that doctrine that was very ancient. And although that their doctrine was new and unknown to the Gentiles, yet you cannot allege, that it was so 
a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange unto them  unto the jews: for they being studied and learned in Moses law, they heard nothing of the Apostles, but had been prophesied by the Prophets. Doth not Saint Paul say, at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romans, that he was separated to preach the Gospel, the which God promised by the holy Scriptures. 
* Act. 3.  Saint Peter talking with the jews, doth give them plainly to understand, that his was no new doctrine, because that he did preach jesus Christ, of whom Moses had prophesied long before, saying thus. 
* ᵇ Deut. 16.  God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren, 
b Deut. 18. you would say.  you shall obey him, as you do me, and he that doth refuse it, shallbe put to death. Saint Peter saith afterward: All the Prophets that have been from Samuel unto this time, do announce unto you these days, that is to say, the doctrine that we do preach. That that the Apostles did preach unto the jews, that is to wit, the remission of their sins, by the death and passion of Christ, it was no new thing: for as 
* Act. 10.  Saint Peter said unto Cornelius, All the Prophets have witnessed, that those that believe in him, shall obtain remission of their sins: for it had been so prophesied by Esay. 
c 53▪ you should have said.  cap. 55. unto the people, above eight hundredth years, saying that he had laid upon his son all our iniquities, as it doth appear in his book, in the which he doth show himself more an Evangelist than a Prophet: for there he doth write the torments of our Saviour, even as if he had been present at his passion. David likewise doth talk of the like, where he doth mention, the extreme affliction of our Redeemer, and of the Gall, and Isope, and the Vinager. Daniel did not only descry the death of our Saviour, but therewithal, the very time that he should come. And to be brief, all the Prophets have announced unto the jews that, that the Apostles did preach unto them. Now, if we desire to know why this old doctrine preached, aswell to the Gentiles as to the jews by the Apostles, was confirmed with many miracles, which they did in the name of God, who sent them, the cause is this: the Devil had so obscured and hidden the truth over all nations, that superstitious Idolatry had taken place in steed of the true service of God, so that the poor paynim did not put their trust in one God, but in a multitude of Gods. And in like manner, the true Religion given by God to the Israelites, had been troubled, and almost clean abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees, in the which they did trust, for the justification and remission of their sins. 
d And in your own consciences you cannot but see we have just cause.  The like do you report of us, and of your great courtesy ye are content to match us with the superstitious jews, and Idolatrous Paynims, placing your selves in the degree of the pure Gospelers, and the true children of God, taking upon you the succession of the Apostles, and calling your congregation, the true Catholic and Apostolical Church. This sounds notably well, but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reform the Church, as they did; preaching the ancient doctrine of God, as they did; and dealing with superstitious Idolaters, that cleave more to the traditions of men, than unto the pure word of God, as the jews. Seeing then, that our case is reported unto the similitude of the jews, and yours to the Apostles and Prophets, how comes it to pass, that you do not as they did, seeing that you are sent from one master? Why 
e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was, their miracles serve sufficiently to confirm it, to take away all excuse from them, that will not believe it, to the worlds end.  do ye not make your commission appear by signs and miracles seeing that God hath ever done the like heretofore, when he hath sent the like Commission to yours?   

The XX. Chapter.  
I have showed you my reason in the former Chapter, why you must stay (for all your premises) from the conclusion, that you begin withal in this. For howsoever some few of them, them heard in some sort, that such a Messiah either should come or was come, yet the particular person, who that same was, was first preached by the Angel Gabriel, & secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wife (Luke. 1.) before he was borne: then by the Angels to the shepherds the day of his birth, after by Simeon and Anna, john Baptist, the Apostles of Christ, and the rest, as it followeth set down in the story: Luke. 2. etc. But you say yet further, that though their doctrine concerning jesus Christ the Messiah was unknown to the Gentiles, yet it was not so to the jews, for the Apostles preached nothing, but that which had warrant from the law and the prophets, as you prove (I grant) well out of the 1. to the Rom. and 10. of the Acts: conferring those places with the 53. of Esay (though wrong quoted by you) and out of the prophecy of Daniel. I grant, they preached nothing, that aught to have been new unto them, forasmuch as every thing that they preached, had ground in the old Testament, but yet (as you after seem to confess) it was grown new not only to the Gentiles, but also to the jews, in that they were misled in the understanding of the prophecies, that went before of him, both concerning his person and office, through their ignorance, corrupt glosses, & interpretations, that by false teachers were made thereof. Insomuch, that when the Messiah came and executed his office (though indeed all the ancient prophecies were yea & Amen in him, and most plainly in respect of every circumstance verified) yet they could not be persuaded, either that he was such a one in person, or office, as he was, and therefore then once it was necessary by all other good means & miracles also, to confirm the doctrine concerning him, which was thoroughly done by Christ and his Apostles in their times. Now whereas hereupon you would infer, that seeing we match you with the superstitious jews, and Idolatrous paynim, and ourselves take upon us Succession to the Apostles, and to the true catholic and apostolic Church, and to reform you of your errors, as they did theirs; therefore we preaching that ancient doctrine of God, and of his Christ, that they did: we now also should confirm our doctrine & commission by miracles, as they did. Beside many other, there are two principal things, that let you from this conclusion. The first is, that howsoever other things were old, y they taught of God, & the Messiah, yet this was new, who was the very person of the Messiah. Wherein if they had erred (though otherwise they had rightly understood the general doctrine both of his person, and office) it had been most dangerous for them: and therefore that doctrine especially is urged by them; as for example you may see in Peter's sermon to Cornelius, Act. 10. And for the confirmation of that doctrine, they work all their miracles, not generally in the name of the Messiah, but particularly in the name of jesus Christ of Nazareth, as it appeareth Act. 3.6. etc. Which thing in respect of you, we have not, for that is a thing agreed on betwixt us. Another stop to your conclusion is, seeing that doctrine hath been once sufficiently confirmed by miracles, by Christ and his Apostles, that we teach, and you have the same doctrine and miracles set down in the new Testament, whereunto you seem to give credit, as well as we: it is thenceforth needles for the ministers thereof, howsoever they meet with people, that for Idolatry & superstitious errors match the Gentiles, & the jews in the Apostles times: to use any other proof, than from those records of the scripture, which ought now to be accounted sufficient, & therefore now the calling for miracles to be out of time. To reason therefore as you do, It was necessary for the Apostles in their time to work miracles: Ergo it is necessary also now for us, though our doctrine be the same; is besides and without reason. And yet for all this, we recant no whit for comparing you to the superstitious jews, and Idolatrous heathen. For if either be worse than other, we think it is like to prove yourselves, in that having far better means, and more knowledge of God, and his Christ, than they had, yet you multiply your Idolatries and superstitious conceits far beyond them. And even for this, that notwithstanding your better means to keep you in the ways of God, and your more knowledge, than they had, when Christ and his Apostles came first unto them to preach this Gospel; you match them in gross Idolatry, and in multitude of superstitions, and false opinions; is it, that God, vouchsafing the better to convert them, to work miracles then; thinketh it fit to answer you now, as the rich glutton was enforced in the like case; ye have Moses and the Prophets; yea & also the books of the New Testament; and if you will not believe them, you would not believe, though one should rise from death again; or what miracle soever else were wrought. But where as you suppose, that the cause why the Apostles wrought miracles, was the blind Idolatry of the heathen, & superstitions of the jews only; and not any newness of any part of their doctrine; you are much deceived, as you may perceive by that which I have said. Again, if you would persuade, that their doctrine was in no point new, because in the doctrine of one God, and in the doctrine of the Messiah, in some points it was not, or ought not to have been so, your logic is slender. For in other points it might be new, as I have told you, and so in respect thereof, though not of the other, miracles were necessary. But this your objection of lack of miracles, pleaseth you so well, that you cannot have done with it; let us therefore hear, what further you can say, touching this matter.    


The XXI. Chapter.  
YOu do conjure us by the name of the living God, to receive your Gospel and pure word of God, or else you do threaten us, that you will shake off the dust of your feet in testimony against us, because that we will not believe your words. But in this matter ye do allege a wrong text: for we were very simple, if we should forsake or remove the foundation of our Church, upon such an occasion, as I will show by this discourse that doth follow. I am sure that you are not ignorant, how that Luther, after he began to preach his Gospel was not found barren: for immediately after his beginning, he did engender another gospeler, that is to wit, Andrew Coralstadius, and from thence was produced another called Zuinglius, and of Zuinglius, Oecolampadius. Then, Thomas Muncerus, considering, that he had no less the gift of the spirit then the rest, he began to forge a new Gospel of the Anabaptists, with the which he thought to gratify the Town of Milhouse, who had received already the Gospel of Luther. But the Senate of that town, being wearied already with two many strange Gospels, they advertised Luther you first Apostle of it. And he wrote to them again, that Thomas Muncerus ought not to be received, if he could not prove his vocation by some miracle. And if you demand where I have found this, I say to you, not in the works of some lying Papist, but in the Commentaries of your dear Historiographer master 
* ᵃ Lib. 8. fol. 4.  Sleydon, who hath so good a grace in his writing, and is so moved with the truth of his spirit, 
a Either you had wondrous ill hap for your quotations, or else your printer was too bad, for it is lib. 5.  that he doth omit nothing in his History, but that, that doth go against himself, and the professors of his religion. I do wish those that do understand the Latin, to read this answer of Luther in the Commentaries themselves, and for the rest, I will set it forth, translated, not by me, but by a minister of your own sect, called Robert Prevost, who dwelleth in a signory of Berne. According to his translation, the words are 
b And Luther had reason so to advise them, first because he had no lawful ordinary calling, and then because the doctrine which he set abroach was contrary to the scriptures, which is not our case.  these. Luther was of opinion, that the Senate of Milhouse should do very well and wisely, to demand of Muncer, who had given him commission to teach, and who had called him unto it. If he say, that it is God, let him demand of him, to show some sign or miracle to prove his vocation: and if he could not do it, that they should banish him: for it is common to God, to declare his will by some miracle, at any time, when he will have the common custom and order changed.  
These are the words of Luther. We ought to yield that that is right to every body, & not deprive any man of the praise that he doth deserve. And so I say, all the Catholic Church is bound to give praise & thanks to Luther, for the memorable good & wise counsel that he hath given, for he hath taught us, how we shall expel & overthrow, not only the heresies that he did preach unto us, but likewise yours, & those of all the rest. For if it be so, that every time that God will change the ordinary custom (such as ours) to an extraordinary (such as yours) there ought miracles to be showed by those that come extraordinarily. By this good & godly advise, we know, that Martin Luther, nor none of you all, which do come extraordinarily, as he did, do come from God, but rather from the prince of darkness. Caluin doth confirm this opinion of Luther, as touching the vocation of the ministery: for upon the third Chapter of Saint Luke, in his harmony, he doth say thus, None ought to attribute unto himself by authority any office, forasmuch as it is great temerity: such persons did nothing of themselves, except it were, being called to it by God. Of this we gather, we ought to enterprise nothing of ourselves: for if that the great Prophets have attended to be called of God, what are those, that in these days take it upon them of themselves? we aught to answer, that they are presumptuous fellows. etc. like unto Caluin and his fellows.   

The XXI. Chapter.  
IN this Chapter, to your purpose the only thing you bring us, is, the counsel that Luther gave to the town of Millehouse, for the trial of Muncer the Anabaptist, which you send us, by your quotation, to seek for, in the 8. book of Sleidon; and there it is not, but in the 5. but this is your hap with most of your quotations. His counsel was, that they should will him to prove his calling to be of God by some miracle; because it is common with God, to declare his will by some miracle, when he will have the common custom and order broken. Prove that we either in our doctrine or government of our church do break the common custom and order taught in the church for these, in the written word, as Muncer did, and then follow Luther's counsel and spare not. It evidently appeareth in that book, that Muncer was a monstrous fantastical Anabaptist, and that in Luther's judgement he taught not only many absurd things, contrary to the word: but that also perverting all good order, and policy of Church, and common weal: he meant nothing more, than force, thievery, and other such villainy: and yet pretended for his defence, extraordinary calling and revelations; and therefore no marvel, though Luther gave this counsel, for the sifting of such a wretch. In truth the newness of your doctrine considered, in comparison of that taught in the word, and the strangeness of the order of your Church, from that of Christ's, in the primative time thereof; lead us rather more justly to follow this counsel of Luther against you, than any thing in us can truly move you to urge it, against us. Which if we should do, certainly either should we find you as void of miracles, as you find us; or at least you would be driven to allege such monstrous, vain, and lying miracles, as that now I think you yourselves would be ashamed to tell. Indeed the time hath been, when you would brag of the miracles set down in your Legends (amongst which S. Dunstan's catching the Devil by the nose in the shape of a woman, with a pair of tongues, and such like, good store are reckoned up) and when we were told great wonders of the blood of Hales, which proved in the end, the blood of a duck; and of great miracles done in this place, or that place, by the images of this Saint, and that: but this was in the night of deep and black darkness of ignorance. For now that the sun of the Gospel shineth abroad, we hear little noise of your apparitions and visions, and other such antichristian miracles, that there was so great talk of before. It seemeth now that either your spirits are conjured into a dead sleep, or that you have lost your old gift of working miracles. Belike yet in that you make thus much of this counsel of Luther; when they came from you so readily, and your Church had such a dexterity, and was so fruitful in bringing of thenforth; it was because God would have the world to understand, that indeed you were setting abroach a new doctrine; and a fashion of Government, which neither agreed with the ancient and customable doctrine of his Church, nor yet with the old order of the same; and that therefore you thought it needful by such means, to confirm your commission in so doing. Wherefore, make as much of this counsel of Luther, as you will, it will prove in the end to touch you more, than us. You cite also a saying of Caluin in his 3. Chapter of his Harmony upon Luke, but to what purpose? For who of us ever either in word or deed contraried that speech or doctrine of his? that is the thing that we object against you, that of your own heads ye have devised a number of offices, and orders in your Churches, that God never gave allowance unto: and besides that you have set up a number of points of doctrine, forged but in the shop of man's vain brain, not only not agreeing to the word written, but diversly and wonderfully disagreeing. And as for us, we stand upon that point with you, that we neither take office in hand, without sufficient calling thereunto from God, nor teach things, that we have not good warrant for from his written word. In the rest of the Chapter, there is nothing but scoffing at Luther and Sleydan, joined with malicious slandering of the one to have bred, not only Coralstadius, Zuinglius, and Oecolampadius (whereof he needed not to be ashamed if it were so) but also Muncer the Anabaptist; and the other to be a partial Chronicler: which are things easy for you to speak, but impossible for you to prove: and therefore therein until you bring further proof, you are worthy no further answer. And therefore, as yet for any thing you have said, you were best follow our counsel, and receive the Gospel which we preach unto you; lest the dust we shake off of our feet against you, prove a witness against you in earnest, at the day of judgement.    


The XXII. Chapter.  
ALthough that by the testimony of your own doctors ye are condemned, yet you do still maintain your ill cause, saying, that ye ought to be received to preach the Gospel 
a Still herein you flatly belly & slander us.  extraordinarily, 
b If the ordinary way be thus by Pastors and Bishops, than few or none of your Priests have entered the ordinary way, from whose ordering, Pastors have been and be usually shut out.  that is to say, without the commission of the Pastors & Bishops, being those that are sent us by the permission & ordinance of God. And you say, to maintain your commission extraordinary, that you have the holy scriptures, which you do allege, 
c This objection you will never be able to answer.  the which alone ought in this behalf to be of more credit, than all the miracles that ever the Apostles did. For it mate so chance, that by subtle devices & impostures of the devil, miracles may be falsely counterfeited, but not the scripture which is the touchstone of the truth, as it shallbe seen by experience, when the child of perdition, otherwise called Antichrist shall come. For he, to confirm his saying, shall show such great signs and Miracles, that the very elect should be seduced, if it were possible. Now to answer unto this, which is a notable way to deceive the simple and unlearned, 
d Nay we take not our cause justified because we allege scriptures, but because by the rule of right interpreting, we be able to show, that the true sense thereof is of our side, which heretics cannot do, & therefore we standing upon this as upon the foundation of our cause, and we being always ready to yield, unless we can prove we truly allege them, all that you say in sundry chapters following, to prove that heretics have alleged them is needless and beside the point.  I say, that if the alleging of Scriptures should maintain you, and favour your cause so much as you do say, our side were driven to hard shifts: for than we might be blamed before the seat of God, not only for not receiving your Gospel, but likewise, for refusing the Gospel of divers heretics, that have been many hundred years before you were borne: which did all allege the Scriptures, as it doth appear by the three passages written unto the 
* Cap. 6.10. & 12.  Hebrews above mentioned. By the which the novatians did pretend, to verify, that the mercy of God was denied unto him, that did offend after his Baptism, joined with that that is written in the first book of the Kings. If man (said the good Helye) doth sin against man, he may agree with him again: but if he come to offend God, who shall he be, that shall pray for his sin? Did not the Arrians allege Scriptures, to maintain, that Christ was not God and man? Yes surely, 
e How or which prove you this?  as many places or more than the Catholics. Saint Augustine doth write in his book De haeresibus, ad quod vult deum, That there was in his time a certain sect of heretics that taught, that for a man to be saved, he ought to be gelded. And they did allege the nineteenth Chapter of S. Mat. where Christ doth praise the eunuchs, which have gelded themselves for the kingdom of heaven. And if a man were disposed to forge another heresy like this, he might soon find scripture to maintain it, being ill interpreted: for he doth command, that we should pull out our eyes, and to cut off our hands and feet every time, that through them we are scandalizated: for (saith he) it were better for one to enter blind or lame into the kingdom of heaven, then to be condemned, having all our members: so that, taking these words as they are plainly written, we ought to cut the members from our body. 
f It seems you have been brought up in this trade of misalleadging the Scriptures, you are so cunning in matching herein wicked heretics.  Besides this, he that would forge an heresy somewhat more pleasant and easy, one might soon do it: the which is, that for to go to Paradise, we have no need of hose, shoes or money because that our Saviour did so command it to his Apostles. One may likewise prove by the Gospel, that we have no need of Magistrates nor other Superiors, forasmuch as our Saviour hath said, that one is your Lord and master, namely Christ. Moreover, a man may prove by scripture, that one ought to retain nothing unto himself, if any other demand it, forasmuch as it is written, If one demand of you your coat, you ought not only to give it, but your doublet also: and if one give us a box on the ear, it is not enough to take it patiently, but we must turn the other cheek also. 
g And to this heresy, you come marvelous near, in your cap. 34.  jovinian a great heretic, did teach, that a Christian after his baptism doth no more offend God, yea, that he could not, although he would. Who would not hate such a blasphemous error as this? yet if the alleging of the Scriptures ought to suffice, he may be preferred before Master Caluin as more ancient: for he doth allege Saint john in his first 
* Cap. 5.  Epistle, who saith: We know, that he that is borne of God, doth not sin, for the generation of God doth preserve him, and the ill spirit shall not touch him. And in the same 
h That is a curled gloss that corrupts the text. john speaks not of the sacramental regeneration, but ●f effectual regeneration by the spirit, which always accompanies not the other.  Every man that is borne of God, that is to say, baptised, he doth not sin, for the seed of God doth dwell in him, and he cannot sin, for he is borne of God. Saint Augustine doth write in his eighty nine Epist. ad Hilarium, that the Pelagians and Manichees, among other heresies that they did maintain, they said, that it was impossible for rich men to enter into Paradise, until they had sold all their goods, and given them to the poor, and that all things ought to be common. The which doctrine is easily to be maintained by the Scripture ill understood: for 
* Mat. 10. & 16.  our Saviour doth say, that for to be his disciples, we must forsake and renounce all that we have, in testimony of the which, the first Christians at jerusalem did sell all their possessions, and presented the money of them to the Apostles to give to the poor. And that that is worse, the Adamites did maintain a greater error than this, and more brutish, the which is, that all men's wives should be common, and they did call this the true Gospel, and the pure word of God, alleging for it the first and eight of Genelis, where God doth say: Increase and multiply, and replenish the earth. If you do say, that this is a foolish opinion, I confess it to be so: but that 
i This is false, that Church condemneth popery, for this heresy, Zisca, Hus and their followers condemned before you.  very Church which hath condemned this heresy of theirs, doth likewise condemn yours. When the devil determined to fight with Christ, he thought he could no wise aid himself so well, as with the holy scripture; persuading him, that the best way for him to show himself to be the son of God was, to break his neck, casting himself down from the pinnacle of the Temple. And he did allege this text saying, 
* Psal. 90.  as it is written: That the Angels of God should so preserve him, that he should not hurt his foot against the stones, following that David said. And if I should go about to write all the places of Scripture that the heretics have alleged, to maintain their horrible errors, I think surely, I might make a bigger book than the Bible.   

The XXIII. Chapter.  
IF 
a O you are your craft's master, a man may see, in wrong alleging the Scriptures.  that the son do hate the father, or the father the son: or if the wife do hate the husband, or the husband the wife, they may take the word of God, ill understood, to defend their cause: for he doth command us, that we shall hate those that are nearest unto us, as under the pain of not entering into Paradise, if we do contrary. But this aught to be understood, that we ought not to prefer the love of any creature, how near soever they be to us, before the love of God. In like manner, he that will say, that we should not eat of the blood of those beasts that are smothered, he may soon allege the scripture for it, which doth say, that at the council that the Apostles held at Jerusalem, being present the holy Ghost, this ordinance was made, as we read in the. 15. Chapter of the Acts. And if that one should take in hand to bring all the places of scripture, that the heretics have alleged to maintain their opinions, I dare boldly say, that he shall find it an endless piece of work. For among so great a number of false Prophets, there hath been very few, or almost none, but they have sought to maintain their opinions by Scripture, drawing the places, as it were, by violence, to a depraved and a corrupt sense, being this the manner of interpreting of the Scriptures, called at this day the pure word of God, by those that have professed to be as long as they live, enemies to the truth. 
a You should have said in his first come & 2 book.  The learned and ancient Doctor Epiphanius, in his first book against heresies, doth allege, as touching this matter, a very familiar example, saying, that if some good Carver had made the image of a king, adorned with many jewels and precious stones, and that another should come afterward, and should take the same jewels and precious stones, and make with them the image of a Fox or a Dog, and that he should say: behold, here is the Image of a king, would not every body laugh him to scorn, and say, that he did it in mockery, or else, that he were mad? Yes surely: for although they be the same jewels, and that very stuff, wherewith was made the Image of the king, yet, because that this other workman hath taken them away, and fashioned them after another sort, it ought no more to be called the image of a king, but the picture of a Fox or a Dog. Even thus is it with the holy Scriptures, which were left us by the Apostles and Prophets, for to paint in rich colours the Image of the great king of glory: 
b This is even your ow●e dealing with the scripture up & down, when you would confirm Popery therewith.  but seeing that you take those precious stones from the image of this king, and do appropriate them unto the Image of a Fox, making them serve to cloak your heresies withal, it ought no more to be called the word of God, nor the holy Scripture, but the word of men, & false doctrine. And therefore, if you will have it to bear the first name you must set it in the first estate, that is to say, 
c This is certain and therefore scripture trust interpret scripture, and not your Romish spirit.  that it ought to be interpreted by him, that did first indite it. It is not by the will of man, saith S. Peter. Epist. 2. Ca 1. That the prophecy was brought, but by the inspiration of the holy Ghost, that holy persons have spoken etc. I know well, that you attribute the intelligence of the scripture unto your Synagogue. 
d This we do not take upon us.  But how shall we believe, that the holy Ghost doth dwell more in you, than in all the universal Church, which hath continued from the passion of Christ until this time? I pray, do so much as answer me, if you my masters be the lodging of the holy Ghost, 
e Wither our alleging of them agree or not with the holy Ghost itself speaking in the scriptures, we are contented to let always the true Church of Christ judge.  where did he make his residence before ye were borne? I know already your answer, the which is, In the hearts of the faithful. And where were those faithful? Marry, where the holy Ghost was. Answer thus still, & ye shallbe sure, that ye shall not be overtaken: for it is as good as to play handy dandie, & soye shall accomplish the old Proverb the which sayeth: It is as far from Dover to Caleis, as from Caleis to Dover. But to the end that all the world may see, the great hazard of eternal damnation that those run into, that are so ready to believe every body, thinking that they are assured of their health, forasmuch as those that seduce them, say, behold, there is the scripture, it is the pure word of God & the very gospel, I will set forth some heresies, that have been in times past condemned by the catholic Church: the which notwithstanding have been 
a This you can never do.  aswell, yea & more largely confirmed by Scripture, than you can confirm any of yours.   

The XXIIII. Chapter.  
THe Catholic Church continually hath faithfully holden, & doth hold, that our Saviour jesus Christ is true God and man, having taken natural flesh in the womb of the virgin Marie, wholly like unto ours, as touching the corporal essence, that is to say, excepted only sin, the which body he did form of the very flesh and substance of his mother, by the operation of the holy Ghost, who hath wrought so notable and excellent a work, that two contrary or divers natures are miraculously joined & united in one person, without confusion or conversion of the one substance into the other, but by conjunction & union of them both, called by the divines, Hipostatique. This doctrine hath ever been received and holden by the Church in equal degree of truth and reverence, with the rest of the points of religion, which now you seek to abolish. And notwithstanding this, divers Ministers and Preachers, derived from the sacred consistories of Valentinus, Photinus, Manes, Theodorus, Nestorius, Apollinaris, Eutichus, Macharius, Eutiocheus, besides a great number of other famous heretics, that I cannot here name, have sought to teach the contrary, saying, that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles, to reform the Church, 
b Thus at your pleasure you father upon these heretics, to make them resemble us, that, the contrary whereof, the ancient father's attribute unto them, namely that they shunned trial by the scriptures, that they accused them of unsufficiency & darkness, and so fled to unwriten traditions, and fond revelations even as you do for all the world.  not by the Traditions of men, which you call Papistical, but by the pure word of God. For even like you, my masters, did Valentinus & his fellows begin the reformed Church, taking upon them the correction of all the Magistrates and Fathers in times past, saying, that they did abuse the people, because that they taught, that jesus Christ had taken flesh and blood of the Virgin Marie, saying, that this was a great error: the which ought to be reform, and that the people should believe, that he brought his body from heaven, and that he caused it to pass through the womb of the Virgin Marie, as the water doth through the channel. This Gospel was very strange, yet the said Valentinus did not want Scripture, as you have, to confirm it, interpreting it, even as you do interpret here in France. He did allege for his text the third of john, where Christ doth say: No person is ascended to heaven, but he that did descend from heaven. And therefore did he maintain, that seeing Christ is in heaven, and descended from heaven, that he took no flesh of the virgin Marie. Nestorius' another notable heretic, did link his Gospel to Apollinaris opinion in this case, separating the manhood from God, and saying that the son of man ought not to be called God: for seeing (said Apollinaris) that this man is descended from heaven, it doth follow, that he took no flesh of the virgin: & besides this, Christ sayeth 
* joh. 6.  I am descended from heaven, not to do my will, but the will of my father. Here he doth not speak, as one that is God for if it were so, he would have no other well, but the will of his father, and so he doth speak like a man. And he saith, that he is descended from heaven: for the which cause, this same Valentinus did take the conclusion of this Gospel to his advantage: for the third authority, that is written in the first to the Corinthians, where Saint Paul saith: the first man is of earth earthly, the second is of heaven heavenly. The which passage or place is as fit to serve Valentinus opinion, as all the places that you, and all those that hold your opinion, can allege.   

The XXV. Chapter.  
ANother Minister likewise called Apollinaris followed after these, sent by the said master, & yet according to his saying, he did preach the pure word of God, affirming that the Church ought to be reform, which had believed, that the two natures were contained in jesus Christ, & that the true religion was, to believe, as it is written in the 1 of john, that the word was indeed become flesh, or converted into flesh: And to confirm this, he did allege the said place, where S. john doth say: And the word was made flesh: & when the catholics did reply against him, saying that the verb or word took flesh, & not as touching the conversion of one substance into another: he did fortify his Gospel with another text, where S. john doth write of the marriage at Canaa, where the water was changed into wine, that is to say, as touching the very substance of the water which was turned into wine: Even so saith he, that it became at the very Incarnation of Christ, alleging that that we have said, And the word was made flesh. Arrius, which was the most famous heretic that ever hath been, did pretend to verify another gospel: & his was, that our Saviour Christ had not taken at his incarnation, a perfect soul, another men have, but that he had only a body, and that his divinity did supply the absence of his soul. Of this opinion was Apollinaris, Theodorus, Mossnestenus: and Nestorius came after, and they did blame the Catholic Church, because it did teach the said union, called, as I have said, Hipostatique, that is to say, of the two natures in one person. And they did allege for their argument a very subtle reason, the which was, that God did inhabit within the body of our saviour, as he did within a Temple, that is to say, by grace, and not by being united together. And therefore, even as it were a great folly, to say that God is a Temple, that so it is to say, that God is a man. This Gospel did seem very new, yet did not they want Scripture to maintain it, 
a That is not because we have not plainer places rightly alleged for proof of our religion, but that in God's just judgement, such as you, have eyes and ee not.  and that more plainer, than ever I could see any place, to maintain your heresies. Christ did say unto the jews. 
* Joh. 2.  Undo this Temple, and in three days I will build it again. He meant it by the Temple of his body, saith S. john. Then the body of jesus Christ is the Temple of God, & God is not his temple. See whether this be not a notable argument to deceive the simple man, that is not used to read, how the doctors expound these hard places. And moreover they did allege S. Paul in the first to the Colloss. where he doth say, that the plenitude or fullness of divinity doth dwell in jesus Christ corporally, they do allege this place greatly to their purpose, to prove, that God is 
b In him as in: left out I thin e.  a Temple, that is to say, by grace, & not being united. For the third place, they take the 8. of john, where Christ doth say: He that hath sent me, is with me, and he hath not left me alone. And therefore Theodorus & his fellows did conclude, that there was no more union between the divinity & humanity of our Saviour, than there is between God & us. Of the which 
* ᶜ 1. Cor. 5.  S. Paul doth speak, where he saith: he that is joined to God, 
c Well quoted, you would have said. 6.  is made one spirit with him.   

The XXVI. Chapter.  
IT doth suffice, that one may see by these fellows, how soon one that is ill disposed may allege scripture in corrupt sense, to maintain such heresies as these, the which I will not stay to confute: for (thanks be to God) they do not reign now, for they have perished and their authors, 
a This is but a blind Prophets' dream.  as you shall and your followers, if ye do not repent in time. And besides this, our Doctors have fully answered 
b It is well yet that you will confess thus much.  by texts of Scriptures these old heresies, as you may see in all the ancient ecclesiastical writers, and confuted them, not only with pithy reasons, but with the true word of God, and the authority of diverse general counsels. And if I have noted here some part, both of their authors, and of them, to show, how they did seek to confirm their damnable opinions, I do it, only to warn the simple people, that they should not so soon give ear to false Pastors, which have nothing in their mouths but the holy scripture, and the pure word of God, covering the cups of their poison with the gold and precious stones, which they have taken from the image of the eternal king, to paint those subtle Foxes, that will lead them all to damnation. And therefore in the name of God I do desire those, that are not much used to read the Scriptures, nor to hear how the Church and the doctors do expound the hard places, 
a So do we, but not to drive them from reading them, but to show them, hat they must be read and searched diligently.  to beware, how they read them, for fear of falling into error, taking only the letter, which many times hath a contrary sense to that, that is outwardly written. For if so many men of great learning & excellent understanding have found such great rocks in this rough sea, which have many times overthrown their ships: how dangerous then must it needs be unto those, that will take it in hand, so doubtful a navigation, having little skill or none at all. But as for you my masters of the contrary side, you can sail with all tides & all winds, giving the governance of the ship or the guiding of the stern, without consideration 
b This is a mere slander.  to all kind of people. We have at this day in France (I will not say in England) many that have the holy spirit, Interpreters of the scriptures: And for sooth, what are they? Marry, peddlers, Cobblers, Tanners, Bankrupts, Runnegates, & such others: which having no other living, 
c Here the author bewrayeth himself rather to have been an English man, than a French. For when this should be wr●ten there were no Lord Bishops in France to make such, but papists.  sue to my Lord Bishop, and he makes them ministers, being not one of them, but hath the holy spirit: 
d All this is but slanderous railing & lying, for we do not, say or think thus: but cry upon Bishop, that they admit no suc unfit me●, and we call upon such, rather humbly to content themselves with the places of earners, then to presume, without sufficient knowledge, to be teachers.  for assoon as they can say, the Lord, and rail upon the Pope, the Bishops, and all the learned men that have been in times past, Oh, these are great doctors, no place of scripture to them is hard, all the ancient doctors were men, & the general counsels did err. I know, that you do maintain your opinion with the saying of 
* ᵉ John. 8.  Christ, alleging it as other heretics have done, the which is, That the heavenly father hath hid these high and profound things from the great Clerks, and hath revealed them unto the meek and humble.  
This is true, but it ought to be understood, to the humble and meek of spirit, and not to those which trust so much to their own wits, being puffed up with arrogant ignorance, that they think to know more in three days reading, than the doctors could in fifty years study, faming themselves to be like the Apostles, as if that God, governed by their appetites, did send every month the feast of Pentecost. 
c Mat. 11. you should have said.    

The XXII, XXIII, XXIIII, XXV, & XXVI. Chapter.  
NEither our own Doctors, nor any thing else that yet you have said (for all your great brag) have any force either to disprove that lawfulness of our vocation, or to condemn our religion. Neither is it true, that we stand so much upon our extraordinary calling, as you would insinuate to your reader. For we tell you, that if you take ordinary calling in your own sense, if there be any good at all, in that Wickliff, john Hus, Luther, Bucer, and the rest that have been the first & foremost in these late days in detecting the errors of the papacy, and in renewing the light of the gospel, had that kind of calling. And as for the rest since, they have had a better ordinary calling than that, in that it hath been more agreeing to the order of calling by the Apostles and primative Church. But in that, to express what you mean by our extraordinary calling (you say) that thereby you mean a calling without commission of the pastors and bishops etc. I perceive that therefore it is, that you charge many of our ministers to preach the gospel extraordinarily, because (howsoever otherwise they had, before they took upon them any dealing in the ministry, the ordinary calling allowed of in the reformed Churches of Christ, where they were to exercise the same) they took not first any of your popish orders, at the hands of some of your popish lord bishops, after your popish manner. In which sort I grant you, many of our ministers have an extraordinary calling: but then I say unto you again, that their extraordinary calling (having an eye to that order that Christ and his Apostles left in this case unto the Church) is more ordinary, than the ordinary calling that you speak of. And therefore though their calling of late days here amongst us, hath not been according to your order, & that they have neither been chosen by your pastors, nor had imposition of hands of your Lord bishops, yet you cannot say truly, that any of them take upon them extraordinarily, that is, as you expound it, without the commission of the pastors and bishops to preach the Gospel. Name the man, time, and place, you cannot when and where, any that is accounted amongst us a sound preacher of the gospel, hath either said, that thus he ought to be received to preach the gospel, or hath attempted so to do. For it is generally held and received of all the Churches, that profess the gospel, and so likewise is their uniform practice, that none be suffered to take upon them to preach the gospel, unless it be known and sufficiently appear, that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church, where he is ordered, he be sufficiently authorished so to do. And well known it is, that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed, but the order thereof is, that none meddle in the ministry therein, without commission (as it pleaseth you to speak) either from some convenient number of pastors, or from some bishop, or from both, by the order of that church appointed to look to, and to take care of that business. As for the Anabaptists, a captain whereof you named in the former Chapter, we know, that in their fantastical spirit, they both hold and practise, as here you charge us, but therein and therefore we dislike & condemn them as much as you. And you know we renounce communion with them, we count them heretics, & therefore sundry of us purposely have writ large and vehement books against them: you do us therefore great wrong to charge us with that which is their fault, & which you cannot prove to be ours. But you will say, I am sure (for in your former Chap. you seem to derive Muncer the Anabaptist his pedigree from Luther) that we may worthily so be charged, for they are such as spring of and from us. But herein again you offer us as great wrong, as the servants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field, should have done him, if they had said, that the tars that came up therewith in the same field, had been there sowed by him: because when Christ his Apostles and faithful ministers had first preached the gospel, there were found in the same age, springing up with the same, & amongst the professors thereof, Ebionites, Cerinthians, Nicolaitans, Simonists, and sundry other fantastical heretics, as Hymeneus, Philetus, Hermogines and Phygetus: was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithful ministers, or that the gospel itself should be charged with their fond conceits? And yet as absurd & senseless as this kind of dealing were, it is both here with you oft in this your book, & usual is it with all of your spirit, this now for want of better matter against us, by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of us, our churches, and religion.  
But you content not yourself with falsely charging us to say, that we ought to be received to preach the gospel extraordinarily, but also you lay to our charge, that we seek still to defend an ill cause, and an extraordinary commission. This you only say, as your manner is, but neither proof nor shadow of proof you bring, neither indeed can you. For our cause is the very truth, and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching, and confirming the same unto men, that Christ hath left by his own ordinance to all his faithful ministers unto the world's end. And for proof hereof we appeal indeed to the holy scriptures, which in this case even for the reason by you alleged, we are not ashamed to confess to be the sound touchstone of truth, and to be preferred in credit before miracles. Yet you some thing amplify and add unto our speech, in that you say we affirm, that the scriptures as they are alleged by us alone, aught to be of more credit than all the miracles wrought by the Apostles. Well, this our reason, to justify our cause and commission, you say is a notable way to deceive the simple and unlearned. I wonder that you were not ashamed and affrayed so to write. For you cannot be ignorant, that to confute error, to prove truth, to exhort to virtue, and to dehort from vice, Christ and his Apostles, and so from time to time, the ancient fathers, what adversaries soever they had to deal withal, used always to fly to this touchstone, and for the most certain concluding of their purpose, did allege scripture: but your shift will be, that these alleged the scripture rightly, which you speak not of, and we allege the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense, & therefore you would have your words in all this your discourse against our alleging of scripture, to be taken as written not simply against alleging of scripture, but against alleging it as we do. Then I answer, that that you should have proved, that we allege the scripture in a wrong sense, but this you have not once gone about: only you prove that bare alleging of scripture cannot, nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretend, for that sundry heretics have countenanced their heresies by alleging scripture, and that often very plentifully. About this you spend sundry Chapters, and withal to show yourself to be able, if you list, to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretics you mention: all which is to no purpose, unless withal you had proved (which you shall never be able to do) that we alleging them, do allege them so likewise. For we are not so simple or ignorant, that we know not, that the scripture hath been and may be misalleadged, as you writ, and therefore we never go about to persuade the people, that they must and aught to believe us for our bare alleging of scripture: but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them, we prove forcibly and invincibly unto their consciences, that we allege them according to their true and native meaning. We call upon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselves john 5, 39 and with Paul we exhort them so to travail therein, as that they may have the word of God dwell even in themselves plentifully in all wisdom. Coloss. 3.16. that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11. and the doctrine of S. john, they may try the spirits of them that would seem to teach them a right, before they believe them, 1. john 4.15. we confess gladly with Peter 2. Epist. cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesy nor part of the scripture, is of any private interpretation, and all such interpretations we count and judge private and human (whosoever gives or allows them) that are not indeed sound agreeing with the mind of the author of the scripture, the holy Ghost. And therefore we hold and teach, for as much as the natural man understandeth not the things of the spirit of God. 1. Cor. 1.15. that no man in alleging and citing of the scripture●, is to trust to his own wisdom or learning; but according to the counsel of S. james, finding himself in this case to lack wisdom, we exhort all men, and thinking it needful ourselves, before we take upon us to interpret them, to ask wisdom of God, and that heartily and faithfully, that we may wisely, truly and sincerely open them unto the people: we know and say with Basil 2. libro contra Eunomium, that the word of God is not in the sound and words of the scripture, but in the sense; and with Hierom upon the first Chapter of the epistle to the Galathians, we are ready always to acknowledge that the gospel lies not in the words of the scripture, but in the sense, not in the outward show, but in theinward marrow, not in the leaves of speech, but in the root of reason. Now this sound sense of the scripture we take only to be that, which the author thereof thereby intended, for the better finding out whereof, after invocation and prayer unto God, for the direction of his spirit, to lead us aright thereunto, we think it very necessary, that no good means that we can have use of, be omitted. And therefore to this end, we labour for the knowledge of tongues and arts, we consider of the phrase, of all the circumstances, have before our eyes the manifest & agreed on sum of Christian faith and good manners, confer place with place, diligently read the writings both of ancient writers and new: and that we resolve to be the true since, which we find, stands best with the lawful and good use of all these. In alleging of them this course we take, to make it appear, that by the sound rules of interpreting the scriptures, they are rightly cited by us; we stand not therefore upon the bare and only citing of them, howsoever that be (as you would insinuate) but upon the right and sound alleging thereof; which you can never prove, is common to us with other heretics. For howsoever they and you join with us in often alleging the Scriptures for your defence, yet neither they nor you, join with us in right alleging of them, in that you and they allege them for the maintenance of your errors and heresies, contrary to the true sense thereof, and the sound rules of interpreting of them, and we according to the true sense of the Catholic church, standing well with those rules, to confirm the Catholic faith. And yet (as I said) to this end serveth what soever you have written in this Chapter, and in three or four more following, namely to prove, that the devil, & heretics, and others (as you writ) have by wresting & wrong interpreting the scriptures always laboured to countenance their heresies. This we grant to be most true you see, & yet thereby you have gained nothing against us. For we stand still upon this, & may do for all this, that if we have the Scriptures indeed in true sense on our side, thereby we and our doings are so sufficiently justified, as that we need no further justification.  
These five Chapters, as they tend to the proof of one and selfsame matter, so have I thought good jointly to frame an answer to them together. Be it granted therefore unto you, that all these heretics (as you have written and reported of them) alleged the Scripture and consequently (as hereupon you infer cap. 26.) that one may see, how the ill disposed may allege scripture, in a corrupt sense, to maintain such heresy, as these. To what end have you done all this? It appeareth chap. 22. you entered first into this discourse, to prove, that though we have the scripture on our side, which we allege, yet we are not thereby sufficiently defended: and now hereupon only you would infer & conclude, that a man may see, how the ill disposed may allege Scripture in a corrupt sense, to confirm such heresies, as these: which we grant to be most evident: and yet it remaineth undisproved, that if we have the Scripture, which we allege, on our side, we are thereby sufficiently defended. For none of these, nor any that alleged Scripture. as they did, though they allege the words of the scripture, have the scripture indeed on their sides: because if a man have not the true sense thereof on his side, he hath not the scripture indeed and truth on his side.  
But perhaps you will say, that you intended only in this discourse this conclusion, that you have gathered thereupon, & set down in the beginning of your 26. Chapter: then say I, you made an objection against yourselves in our name cap. 22. which you thought to heavy & hard for you, & therefore you thought good, thus to slip from it by and by again. For you were never so simple, as to think, that we were of that opinion, that we accounted ourselves to have those scriptures, which we alleged on our side to justify us & our doctrine, even for the bare alleging of the words, how far soever we were from the true meaning. But you begin in your 26. to tell us, what further meaning you have had therein, as namely, hereby to warn the simple people, that they should not give ear unto false pastors, that have nothing in their mouths but the scripture, & the pure word of God And hereupon you take occasion most earnestly to persuade those, that are not much used to read the Scriptures, nor to hear how the church & the doctors do expound the hard places, to beware how they read them for fear of falling into error. Indeed as long as you would have them hereby only to take heed of rash crediting false pastors, which would countenance their damnable doctrine with such allegations; I like well, and allow of your warning hereupon given against such: but then I can assure you this withal, that rather your Popes, Bishops, & pastors will be found these false pastors, than they whom you mean. I like also very well, that not only such as you speak of, but further that men of all sorts, how much soever exercised in the reading of the scriptures, or acquainted with the exposition of the Church or doctors, should be at all times wary and careful in reading of the Scriptures, in what sense they take them. For I grant (as you infer) that if so many men of great learning have so dangerously mistaken them, it is possible enough, that men that have little skill or none at all, may as dangerously misunderstand them. But yet upon these words, either to discourage the pastor from countenancing and defending his true doctrine, by the Scriptures, & pure word of God, or to discourage the simple people from reading and studying the Scriptures (which I fear herein was your secret purpose, though for shame you durst not plainly set it down) I tell you is devilish and Antichristian. For though it be true, that the devil for wicked purpose (as you note in you twenty two Chapter) alleged scripture to Christ, Mat. 4. out of Psal. 91. and all these heretics alleged scripture for the countenancing of their damnable heresies, yet that drove not Christ, nor true Christians from alleging the scriptures to confute them, and to confirm the truth, as it appeareth by Christ's answer to Satan Mat. 4. and by the writings of the ancient fathers against these heretics. And the hardness that it hath pleased God to leave in the Scriptures is not such, but as that notwithstanding, the simplest may read and travel in the Scriptures with great profit, howsoever it pleaseth you to insinuate in your taunting manner (ca 26.) that artificers may not have the spirit of God and be profitable readers and understanders thereof. For every one that would be blessed, is to take delight in the law of god, and to show that his delight, by meditating therein day & night. Psalm. 1. and Christ hath commanded all his hearers indifferently, to search the scriptures john. 5. And for all the hardness, that is in them, we read, Psal. 19 that the testimony of the Lord giveth wisdom unto the simple, and his commandments give light unto the eyes. And therefore the holy ghost in David speaking of the scriptures of the old Testament (which were then harder, than they be now, being so opened as they be now by the access of the new Testament) saith thus, Thy word is a lantern unto my feet, and a light to my paths, Psal. 119. Wherefore Peter in his 2. Epist. & 1. cap. calleth the writings of the Prophets, a light that shineth in a dark place▪ and therefore much more he accounted the scriptures of the new testament lightsome, which it seemeth in the very same place he had an eye unto, adding, that they did well to attend to the former, until the day dauned, and the day star arose in their har●● (which by means of the Scriptures of the new Testament might be) though I forget not, that the same Peter in the same Epist. chap. 3. wrote also, that amongst the things written by Paul in his Epistles, concerning the later days, there are some things hard to be understood. For I remember also, that yet he noteth, to whom they are so, saying, which they that are unlearned, and unstable, pervert: as they do the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction: for to such nothing is plain enough, to preserve or keep them from thus doing. Upon which grounds (howsoever) you and your fellows with such like discourses as this, would discourage the simple and unlearned from reading the scriptures) Origen wisheth, that all would do as it is written, Search the Scriptures, in his 2. Hom. upon Esay. And Hierom noteth upon these words Colosse. 3. Let the word of God dwell in you plentifully etc. that even laymen ought to have the word of God, not only sufficiently, but also abundantly dwelling in them. And therefore Augustine in his 55. sermon de tempore, saith generally unto his hearers, It is not sufficient, that ye hear the divine scriptures in the Church; but also in your houses either read them yourselves, or else desire some other to read them, and give you diligent ear to them. And Chrysost: likewise in his 9 Homil: upon the Coloss. is very earnest to persuade seculare men (as you call them) to get them the Bible, or at the least the new Testament, to be their continual teachets: and in his 3. Homil: upon Mat. he saith plainly, that this as a plague marreth, or infecteth all, that some think, that the reading of the Scriptures pertaineth only to monks. And these exhortations took such place in the ancient time, that Hierom upon the 133. Psalm saith, that both married men and their wives then had this contention, and not monks only, who could learn most Scriptures. Whereof came such profit, that howsoever your gibing spirit can not digest the like in these days, Theodoret in his 5. book of the nature of man, writeth that men in his time might commonly see, that their doctrine was not only known of them, that were doctors of the Church, and masters of the people; but also even of Tailors, Smiths, Weavers, & of all artificers: yea and not only of learned women, but also of labouring women, as Sewsters, Servants and Handmaids: yea he goeth further saying, that not only citizens understood the same, but also country people, and amongst them Ditchers, Deluers, Cowherdes and gardiner's, and that in such sort, as that you should then hear them disputing of the Trinity, and of the creation of all things.  
And as for the objection, that you terrify them so much withal, of the hardness therein, the ancient fathers have met with that also, and would not have them thereby in any case discouraged from following this counsel, whereby they are stirred up to hear 〈◊〉 them. And therefore Origen in his 20. Homil: upon john saith, It may be said, the scriptures are hard, yet notwithstanding i● thou read them, they shall do thee good: and Hierom noveth that it is the fashion of the Scripture, after hard things to 〈◊〉 other things, that be plain: in his 19 Homil: upon Esay. But Augustine, belike meeting in his time with your forefathers, of whom ye have learned this objection, hath these words in his 5. books against julian, ye enlarge and lay out with many words (a● nothing is more usual with you) how hard a matter the knowledge of the scripture is, and meet only for a few learned men: and therefore in his 3. book and 26. cap. of Christian doctrine hi● giveth us this rule, to expound dark places by more plain places which (saith he) is the surest way of declaring the scriptures, to expound one scripture by another: & in his 2. book and 3. chap. of the same matter, he writeth, that in those which are contained, evidently in the scriptures, are found all things that contain f●●th, manners, hope and love. But Irenaeus in his 1. book, chap. 3 ●●●teth simply, that the scriptures are plain. And Chrysost: in his first Homil: upon Math. and upon the 2. Thess: 2. writeth that the scriptures are easy to the slave, husbandman, widow, & children, and that all things be plain and clear therein. And yet I 〈◊〉 needs add with Epiphanius, only to the children of the holy ghost, are the scriptures plain and clear in his 2. book: and with Solomon, knowledge is easy to him, that will understand: Prou. 14.6. For the natural man perceiveth not the things of the spirit, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1. Cor. 2.14. Of whom that S. Peter, 2. Epist. 3. might give us to understand he only meant, he calleth them, to whom those things in S. Paul's Epistles (whereof he speaketh) are hard, and whose fashion it is to misunderstand not only those things, but also the rest of the Scriptures how plain soever, both unlearned, & also unstable: which is an argument of want of the spirit of God, & of all true desire indeed to find knowledge, wheresoever it be. And it may be, this is the cause, why the scriptures seem hard unto you of the church of Rome, because you are led by the spirit of your Pope, which is but a man, & often times an ignorant, & wicked man, to understand the scriptures, and have indeed no true acquaintance with the spirit of God, nor any true desire after knowledge, but rather after ignorance, because that is the best foundation of your Religion. And therefore (as the fashion is) you measuring another 〈…〉 by your own, happily judge them to be as hard to all others, as to yourselves, and thereupon by the hardness thereof, discourage them from reading them, as much as you can. I am sure, whatsoever you, or any of your fellows prate hereof, that therein is contained the will and testament of our heavenly father, and that this pertaineth to simple and unlearned artificers, as well as to the great learned men of this world. For therein and thereby I know, that God is no accepter of persons: and therefore so far of is it, that any hardness of terms or phrases therein contained to express unto them, or bequeath unto them their heavenly father's behests and bequests, should drive them from the reading and studying of them, that so much the more pains and diligence they ought to use to attain to the right sense thereof. For we see in our earthly father's will, the harder the tearines and phrases be, wherein he hath given us any thing, or willeth us to do any thing, nature & reason hath taught us, not therefore to take and bestow less pains & cost, but a great deal more, to seek to understand the same, how much more ought it to be so in this case? And I am persuaded, that our heavenly father hath so tempered hardness with plainness, & plainness with hardness in the scriptures, that the plainness might allure and encourage every simple man to read & study them, with hope to understand them; & that the other might admonish him to be no negligent, but a careful & wise peruser of them: & so both together make every one a willing and studious reader of them. Which (it should seem) both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessors, & Gregory in his epist: to Leander had observed, in noting, that God had so ordered the scriptures, as the therein he had provided for the strong man meat, & for the weakling milk: and that there both the Elephant might swim, and the lamb safely wade.  
These things notwithstanding, & whatsoever else might be said further to this purpose, I perceive that you in this your long discourse of the heretics, abusing and wresting the scriptures, cared not how little otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose, so the thereby you might gain thus much, as by such experiments, to withdraw the minds of men from the love & study of the scriptures. For I know they greatly cumber you & stand in your way, and therefore by your wills you cared not, if the people never heard of them, whereof you have given an invincible demonstration in that you have kept them hidden and shut up from them as long as you 〈◊〉, under the close bushel of an unknown tongue. And your goodwill towards thou hath otherwise been sufficiently bewrayed, by the unreverent and disgracing speeches uttered by your chief & great Champions against them, as it is well known, too too often. For first for their authority (though now some of your side would seem in that point to speak more modestly) not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you, in the first book and second Chapter of his Hierarchy, hath flatly written that all authority of scripture now, necessarily dependeth upon the authority of the Church, For otherwise we could not believe them, but because we believe the Church that gives testimony unto them, adding further, that Mark and Luke were not of themselves sufficient witnesses of the gospel, and that the gospels were not written that they might be above our faith and Religion, but rather to be subject thereunto. And Ecchius, another great doctor of yours of the same time, in his Enchiridion, writing of the authority of the church, saith, that the scriptures were not of authentic authority, but through the authority of the Church: and therefore he boldly affirmeth, that to say, that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church, is heretical, and the contrary is Catholic. And whereas it was objected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge, that one of your crew (meaning thereby one Herman) had not been ashamed to say, that the scriptures should have had no greater estimation or credit than Aesop's fables, but for the testimony of the church. Hosius a Bishop and Cardinal of yours, writing against the said Brentius, in his third book (being of the authority of the scripture) defends it as well enough spoken: for (saith he) unless the church had taught us which is scripture Canonical, it could have had small authority with us. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book & seventh Chapter of his places of divinity, that it appears not to us that the scriptures are of God, but by the testimony of the Church, insomuch that she must determine (saith he) what books be Canonical, and her authority is a certain rule whereby either to receive or to reject books into, or out of the Canon. Of the same judgement is Canisius in his Catechism ca 30. sect. 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth book of the principles of doctrine, with a great rabble more of your writers of greatest account since Luther. And this position so liked Ecchius, that in the place before cited, he writes of the margin, Achilles, against this position, to insinuate, that this is a special tried captain of yours. And yet when all comes to all, your meaning all this while is by the Church, to understand only the Pope, forasmuch as none but he, hath the tongue of the Church in weelding. For Catherine in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth, that it is the Pope's proper privilege to canonize or to reject from the Canon scriptures: which is also Canus fift proposition in effect, in the Chapter before named. This being your meaning, & Leo the tenth being one of your Popes, what Canonical authority have you left the scripture, if it be true that is written of him, that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinal, contemptuously said, speaking of the Gospel, that that fable of Christ had been very profitable unto them? And as for the uncertainty of the sense & insufficiency of them, who knoweth not, what cost usually always upon every light occasion you are ready to bestow, in amplifying the hardness of them, & in either preferring therefore, or equalling the unwriten word, with you call the lively practice of the church, before them, both for plainness & sufficiency. When you are in this vain, both the fathers of Colen shall be justified, and Piggius also by your Andradius, Orthodox: Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they compared the scriptures to a nose of wax, & he to a leaden lesbian rule, and to their further disgrace, Canus may term them a dead judge, which can neither hear nor speak, in his Chapter & book before named; & in like sort others in the following of this comparison, with your good allowance, shall & may call them incken divinity, & what else they list, as we often have showed you, and them the only rest upon them, scripture men, or men whose Religion and divinity, lieth in rags & skins of beasts, because of such things the books are made wherein they are contained. Many beastly & blasphemous speeches and assertions thus tending to the disgrace of the Canonical scriptures, any man that list may find Lyndans three first books of his panoply, Hosius book de expresso Dei verbo, & his triple dialogue, Cusans 2. Epist. ad Bohemos & 7. Andradius, Florebellus, Priereas, & almost all your famous writers of these later days, every where full oft, where they have any occasion to weaken those arguments, that we use against you, either for that you are in your positions, wherein we descent from you, without warrant of scripture, or that they are contrary to scripture. And when we urge you that of what credit soever the tradition of the church be, that you so plead for, yet if it be the word of God aswell as the scripture, than it must needs be, that it agreeth with the scripture, & is, not contrary unto it, for as much as God is always one & selfsame and therefore always agreeing with himself, & therefore press you with that which by the words & circumstances of the text of the scripture, we are sure is the true sense thereof, & therefore the undoubted word of God, them you, even the greatest of you, are driven to these poor & base shifts, to cry out with Cardinal Hosius in his 4. book against Brentius, & in his book de expresso Dei verbo before named, that scripture, as it is alleged of Catholics, it is the word of God, but as it is alleged of heretics, the express word of the Devil, or as he saith also in the later book, if any have the exposition of the Roman church of any place of scripture, although he neither know nor understand whither & how it agreeth with the words of the scripture, yet he hath the very word of God. And when all comes to all, though sometime you would make the poor simple people believe, that in expounding the scriptures you will follow the uniform consent of holy fathers and counsels, yet both this Cardinal Hosius in his triple dialogue, and Cardinal Cusan in his 2. Epist. ad Bohemos tell us, & teach us plainly to understand you, that you mean no other sense than agreeth with the present practice of the Roman church, when tha● sense is given: not once blushing to confess, that according to the variableness of the fashion and practise of that church, the scriptures must be understood, and therefore Cusan commends that obedience that is yielded thereunto simply without reasoning, as the Ox or Ass obeys his master. For whatsoever sometimes, you talk of Popes not erring, & of the not erring of general counsels, or of the authority of the fathers, none that have any thing craveiled in tracing you into your starting holes when otherwise you see you must needs be pinched & taken to your shane, but he, easily seethe, that in truth none of these, no nor all these together with the scriptures themselves, are of any credit and authority with you against the present practice of your Roman Church. One father, or the present Pope if he speak & hold with that, though all the fathers beside are of another mind, & though never so many of his predecessors held otherwise, yet farewell they, in this case; you will and must prefer this one, before all the other. These things being most true, & notoriously known to all men, that with any indifferency have travailed in the controversies betwixt you & us, every one hath cause to see, howsoever sometimes you would seem to yield some thing to the authority of the scriptures, that you are at a flat point, that neither they nor any authority else of man, or men, old, or new, shall or may retain any sense of force, against the present practice and received opinion of your synagogue. And as long as you are at this point, whatsoever you have said of heretics abusing of scripture, as though you were the only men that had care rightly to use them & understand them, every simple body may see, that of all men you are they, by the variableness of your Romish church practice, which are most likely to make a nose of wax, and leaden rule both of the letter of the scriptures, and sense thereof. And therefore whereas in your 23. c. you boldly affirm, that to draw the scriptures by violence into a wrong sense, is the manner of interpreting the scriptures, called at this day the pure word, by those that have professed as long as they live to be enemies to the truth, most fitly may be understood of yourselves; for you are so in love with the present practice, fashion and opinion of your Roman church, that though that vary never so often, even so often must the scriptures will they, nill they, vary and alter their sense.  
Howbeit I am not ignorant, but that in so writing you meant us, though I am sure you shall never be able to prove us, either to have professed at all any enmity with the truth, or so to use to wrest the scriptures. But because this is a matter of great importance, and therefore such as cannot be determined, either by your yea, or our nay, it shall not be amiss upon this occasion, to consider, what sound rules of interpreting there be, that by the same it may be tried, whither your interpreting of the scriptures or ours, deserve thus to be called a drawing of the scriptures by violence to a corrupt sense. The uniform consent of doctors you would often seem (as I have said) in this case to make reckoning of, as of a sound and Apostolic rule of interpreting them by, but this is but for a fashion, for you have given us & do daily manifest proofs, that when but one or two against all the rest of them hold with your currant and present practice of your Roman church that now is, that that one or two of them over weigh with you all the rest. And besides, if this were a necessary rule, than none could be interpreters of the scriptures, but those that had all or the most part of the doctors to peruse, few or none, then ancient doctors & writers there have been so many, & their names are so unknown to most, could be sure when they had the consent of the most and best on their side, and so never should be sure of the sense: and for many places very little or nothing oftentimes have they written. Though therefore we will not shun the trial of our interpretations with you by this rule, yet we account these more certain rules & helps to find out the true sense: first that the true Grammatical sense of the words, and speech used by the holy ghost be sound and rightly understood by sound knowledge of Grammar & Rhetoric, for the native signification of the words and use of the phrase: whereunto much helpeth conference of translation with translation: & of all transtations (if need be) with the original tongues. Secondly, that diligent consideration be had of the circumstances of the text in hand, as namely, what is the matter & scope thereof, upon what occasion it was uttered, who uttered it, to whom, where, & when. Thirdly, that it be taken in such a sense, as will agree best with these circumstances, and stand well with all other places of scripture. And lastly, that no sense be admitted, but that which will stand with the sound proportion and sum of Christian faith, and good manners, taught us plainly elsewhere in the scriptures. By these rules we doubt not but to justify & approve that to be the true sense of the scriptures, which we take them in, either for the confirmation of the truth, which we hold; or for the confutation of the errors, which you defend. And such rules they are, as the ancient fathers, in defending the ancient Catholic faith against heretics, have always used, and no other, as appeareth in their works. And such they are, as Augustine in his books of Christian doctrine doth prescribe, as most necessary in this case to be followed, as no man can, or aught to make any exception against. And yet such they are; as would anon discover the ridiculous vanity of your interpretations in any controversy betwixt us and you. For example, let us try here by your interpretation of Hoc est corpus meum, which to be sound you will live and die in. By what grammar, or by help of what tongue, or translation shall the word Est, is, be all one with transubstantiatur in, is transubstantiated into? Sure I am in no language, nor in any Dictionary shall you ever find the verb Substantive taken in that sense. Secondly, the matter in hand, when those words were uttered, was a sacrament, & Christ spoke them to his Apostles at his last supper, to the end, to institute a sacrament, to continue a dutiful remembrance of his death, until his second coming. What reason is there then to the contrary, but that this speech should be taken, as the like speech always else hath been, and yet is in other Sacraments? Where, Est, is never taken (coupling the sign and the thing signed together, whereof a Sacrament consisteth) as you do here, for, It is turned into, but for, signifieth; which standeth also well with the nature of a Sacrament: whereas yours overthroweth the nature thereof, in so annihilating or transubstantiating of the sign, that you leave no sign to bear any analogy of the thing resembled, which is the ground of such Sacramental phrases. Thirdly, your sense agreeth not with the rest of the scriptures, not only in that in the whole body of the Scriptures, you cannot find Est, Is, placed (as it is here) betwixt two things of diverse kinds, as bread and body be, taken in your sense: and yet in such propositious you find it usually taken for it signifieth or representeth: but also in that the scripture (for all that speech) calleth it bread still, even whiles it is in eating, 1. Corin. 10. & 11. cap. and expoundeth the eating thereof to be a communion, or partaking with, or of the body of Christ, and that spiritual, not by corporal conjunction. 1. Cor. 10. Lastly, your interpretation for the bringing in, & establishing of a corporal & real eating of Christ, with the mouth of the body (which is a thing never taught us in the word, & but such a kind of feeding on him, as you yourselves confess judas, and such may attain unto, and be never the better) shaketh, yea subverteth all those articles, that concern Christ's true manhood, making him to have (even for that needle's presence sake) a body without any of the essential and inseparable properties of a body: yea at one & selfsame time, to have a body visible, sensible, and local in heaven; & yet invisible, insensible, and without dimensions of place in earth. Besides it is against good manners, which forbiddeth eating of man's flesh, and drinking of his blood, either openly or secretly covered under, or in another thing And truly averroes had some reason, of all men in the world to think such Christians, as you, the most savage and foolish, that first would fall down, & worship a piece of bread for your God, & when you have so done eat him up, and devour him. Howsoever you please yourselves in this interpretation, and in your imagination grounded thereupon, I am fully persuaded, that this, & your multitude of images and idols are two of the principal causes, whereby you have hardened the hearts both of the Turks and jews against Christian Religion. And (as I have read) some of them have to some of your fellows, being in hand to persuade them to turn from their Religion to yours, yielded these two reasons, why they thought yours worse, than their own, and consequently as sufficient cause, why they would not yield to yours.  
Now if I should but barely recite a number of other your interpretations and collections of the scripture, which yet with you go for very sound and Catholic interpretations, & collections, I am sure, it were sufficient to make every reader thereof, that hath any wit or discretion left him, to think that there were never heretics in the world, that have more fond & vainly interpreted the scriptures, than you. For example, let the reader mark these for a taste. God made two great lights, the sun & the moon: that is, the Pope & the Emperor: & therefore as many degrees as the moon is inferior to the son, is the Emperor inferior to the Pope: Innocent: de Maioritate & obedient: & Glossa, Ibid. Peter said, he had two swords: that is, the temporal & spiritual sword: & therefore the Pope hath both powers. Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the council of Trent, blusheth not to apply to the Pope these words, The Pope the light is come unto the world, & men love darkness more, than light. Every one the evil doth, hateth the light, & cometh not to the light, lest his deeds be reproved. Yea Paulus Aemilius in his 7. book testifieth, that the Pope suffered the Legates of Cicilia, being prostrate before him, to say unto him, Qui tollis peccata mundi, Thou which takest away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us: Thou which takest away the sins of the world, grant us peace: thus blasphemously applying that to the Pope, which belongeth to Christ. But you will say, these were but the pope's flatterers, that made these expositions, & applications. What then? they were made & uttered without check, yea to the liking of the Pope. And a picture once hanging in S. Mark● church at Venice, showeth, that Pope Alexander the 3. himself treading upon the neck of the Emperor Fridericke the 1. caused th●se words of the Psalm: Thou shalt walk upon the Adder, & tread the Cockatrice under thy feet &. (which are properly to be vndersto●● of Christ) to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his: whereby appeareth, that the Pope himself hath gone as far as his flatterers. That of Paul (by him understood of those that follow the direction of the old man, and are led in their doings by the flesh) They that are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope also interpreteth of them, that live in the estate of marriage. A Bishop must be the husband of one wife, saith Paul. 1. Tim. 3. that is, by their interpretation, of one benefice; and so his house and children, that he must well order and govern, there also spoken of, be his parish and parishioners. Who so would vouchsafe the reading of your 2. Nicene council, he should there find store of such interpretations for the maintenance of images so ridiculously alleged, as ever were any. And how is it possible, that the Church of Rome, holding those principles, that she doth, but that you must needs be as violent wresters and rackers of the Scriptures, as ever were. For both Cusan Epist. 2.3.7. & Hosius de expresso Dei verbo, & in his triple Dialogue, do teach, that the scriptures must always be interpreted according to the practice of the Church, so that how oft soever that change, the sense of the scripture must change also. For still the sense thereof must be fitted to the time, and in no case it may be thought to retain a sense contrary to the practice of the Church. And now you are fully come to this (whatsoever at any time you talk either of Scriptures, doctors, or counsels) your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority, to interpret all, as one having authority so to do for his own sense. So that in deed and truth, neither Scriptures, doctors, nor counsels, how plain soever their words be to contrary the doings of your Church, shall carry away any sense, to overwharte you at all, but will they, nill they, they shallbe caused by your Pope to speak on your side. And therefore these things considered, you are the men, and not we, that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king, that you speak of in your twenty three Chapter: and deck the image of a dog, or of a fox therewith, that is, (according to your own application) which take the words of the Scripture, and by wresting of them, make them serve to countenance your heresies. For heresies, we hold none, ●●ither do we allege the Scriptures, but in his true sense, 〈◊〉 by these rules before mentioned, we are always ready to prove. ●nd therefore (for all your saying to the contrary) the Scripture as it is alleged by us, shall prove even that word of God, that shall judge you, and condemn you, if you repent not: & the sense that you force upon it, shall prove but the devise of man, & false doctrine: yea, your whole Religion is but a renewing of old heresies. For with the Ebionits' you will not be justified by faith only, Euseb. lib. 3. ca 24. but also by your own works & inherent righteousness, as the Catharists have taught you: Isidor: Etymolog: lib. 8. cap. de haeresibus. Of the Manichees, you have learned your ministering in one kind: Leo serm. 4. de Quadragesimâ. Marcus that heretic (who by his invocations made his followers believe, that in the Eucharist he turned the wine into blood) hath been your first schoolmaster for your doctrine of transubstantiation, Epip. haeres. 34. And your multitude of images & your worshipping of them, the Carpocratians have taught you, as to appears, Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. & 24. when you commit these idolatries, you have learned to excuse yourselves, to torment yourselves and to light candles at noon days, of the ancient idolaters, Lactantus lib. 2. cap. 2. & lib. 1. cap. 21, & 6. cap. 2. As the Messalians restrained the force of baptism to former sins (witness Theodoret: divin. decret: cap. de baptismo) so do you. As Montanus taught of purgatory, oblations, and prayers for the dead, and limbus patrum (Tertullian de coronâ militis) even so do you. As the Collyridians sacrificed unto the Virgin Mary and worshipped her; (Epiphan. haeres: 79) so do you. As the Angelists and Caians gave divine honour to the Angels (Epiphan. haeres. 38) so do you. As Montanus and the Manichees devised laws for superstitious fasting (Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13) so do you. As the Tatians, Encratites and Manichees were injurious enemies to Matrimony, crying out that it was a carnal life, & therefore forbade it to their elect, and to them that would be perfect amongst them (August. Epist. 47) likewise do you. And as the Pelagians denied that to be sin, which ariseth not from reason and will, (August contra julianum. lib. 3. cap. 5) so do you for the very same reasons, deny concupiscence of itself without consent thereunto, to be sin & (as there further it appears) they ascribed to the natural powers strength to do spiritual things, and affirmed that a man is to be saved for and by keeping the law, so do you. Of the Valent●nians also you learned to have in such price, as you have, the sign●●f the Cross, and to abuse places of Scripture for it, as, God forbi●, that I should rejoice in any thing, but in the Cross of Christ, Iren●us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres. 31. Of the Heracleo●nites you learned your extreme unction, and other ceremonies, you use to the dead: Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres. 36. Of the Macionites & Pepusians (Aug ad Quod. cap. 27) you learned to give women leave to baptise, Epiphan. haeres. 42. Of the Hemerobaptistes, and of the Ossenes you learned your holy water, holy salt, holy oil, and holy bread: Epiphan. lib. 1, Tom. 1. cap. 17. & 19 And of the same Ossenes you have learned also your superstition about relics, and to pray in an unknown tongue, as Elcai their great Pope taught them, Epiphan. haeres. 19 Thus if a man in reading Augustine, Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others (that have laboured in confuting the ancient heretics) would diligently mark what heresies and fond things they held and used, he should by and by, by comparing their doings & opinions with yours, find, that you have revived very many of their rotten and condemned heresies, and that you have learned most of your Ceremonies of them. And yet as though you of all men were freest, and furthest from all heresy, still you cry out, he retiques, heretics. But it is but policy, that you have learned of some thieves, who the better in an hue & cry to escape, ride crying out of thieves, thieves.  
But for all this, as though you meant as honestly, as any man could desire, in this 33. Cham of yours, you tell us, that you would have the Scriptures interpreted by him, that did indite them: and therefore you allege that, 2. Pet. 1. that no prophecy in the scripture is of any private motion, or interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy ghost: whereupon you insinuate unto us, that you would have them interpreted by the direction of the same holy ghost: which we are very well contented withal. For indeed, that only interpretation is sound and good, that cometh from thence, and that is always to be accounted to proceed but from a private motion, that hath not ground from thence, though otherwise never so great and public persons, and never so many devise it, receive it, and hold it never so long. And therefore it is, that we tell you, that your interpretations, though they be countenanced with Popes, doctors, and counsels, and what else you will, yet are to be rejected as private interpretations, unless they be warranted by the testimony and authority of the holy Ghost.  
But then say you, you challenge this holy ghost, to lead you to the true sense, how shall we believe that it dwelleth more in you than in all the universal church, from Christ's passion to this time? I answer you, that we take no such thing upon us. For we say, if you understand by the Church, you speak of, Christ's Church, which hath from thence continued unto this day, it hath never been destitute of the same spirit of God, that now leadeth us into all truth: otherwise, if thereby you understand only your own Synagogue of Rome, as the state of it hath been these later 500 or 600. years at the least, we say, as it hath forsaken the true Christ, and hath set up another, of an office of her own devising, so hath she been destitute of his spirit, and hath been guided but by an human & foolish spirit. But than you ask us, where this spirit did rest before we were borne? Whereunto (you think) we can make no other answer, but that 〈◊〉 dwelled in the hearts of the faithful. And is not this a good answer? What fault can you find in it? Is it not true? Doth not God's spirit dwell indeed in such, yea and in none but such? Now whereas you think, that if you should ask us again, where were those faithful ones, our answer only would be, where the holy Ghost was, and that we could give you no director answer: and so thereat you take your pleasure, saying, that that is to play handy, dandie, etc.: though if we should answer you no otherwise, we might do so with better reason, than your Collier in Hosius, so much commended by him, and some of you else might answer, as he did, who when he was asked, how he did believe, answered, as the Church believeth: and being demanded, how the Church believed, answered, as I believe. For the Scripture doth expressly bind us, when we are called, to answer for our faith, that we should yield a reason thereof: 1. Pet. 3. and so it bindeth us not, to be always able to make demonstration, who be the faithful, and where they dwell from time to time: yet you understand well enough (if you were disposed) that we both can, and have given you a more particular answer, and that we have told both the names of the most famous persons, and also where they and their followers have lived, and dwelled, that believed as we do, and therefore had the holy Ghost as well as we. But to let your gibing go, if in earnest you would have it tried, whither in interpreting the Scriptures you or we have the holy Ghost, and so consequently, whither you or we be liker these heretics (you speak of) in misinterpreting the Scriptures: your interpretations and ours must be examined, which will stand best with the rest of the Scriptures, wherein we are sure, the holy Ghost hath spoken: and so they, whose interpretations are found best to agree therewith, sentence must be given on their side, that they have the holy Ghost, and that the other have it not. For Chrysostome writing of the holy Ghost gave this rule, to try whither Montanus and Manicheus had this spirit, or no, as they bragged: and hereby he proveth, that Christ taught by this spirit, because he confirmed his doctrine out of the Law and the Prophets, whereas the false teachers could not do so. Christ himself also by his own example hath taught us, when the question is betwixt two, about the sense of a sentence of Scripture, yea, though he that bringeth the wrong sense, be the very Devil himself, that this is the next, best, and ordinariest way, to stop his mouth, and to make it appear, that he hath brought a wrong sense, to see, whither it will stand with some other plain place of Scripture or no. For when the Devil had alleged the ninety one Psalm in this sense, that the meaning thereof was, that though Christ should throw himself down headlong, yet his father's promise was, that he should take no harm, because by this sense, sathan would have persuaded him, upon presumption upon his father's protection, to have tempted him: Christ proveth, that that could not be the sense of the place; because it was written (as it is Deut. 6.) Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. And with this answer sathan, as cunning and malicious, as he was, gave over to reply any further, for the justifying of his sense, Math. 4.7. So also john. 5. in that great controversy, touching the person and office of the Messiah, when as the ground thereof was, that his enemies had falsely interpreted the prophecies concerning him, yet Christ for the determination thereof, and to make it appear, whither they or he brought the truer interpretation thereof, saith, Search the Scriptures. And therefore when Paul had preached the Gospel at Berea, it is noted to the commendation of certain men there, that they searched the Scriptures daiele, whither those things were so: by that means labouring to satisfy themselves in this great question, whither Paul, or the Scribes and Pharisees had the spirit of God in interpreting the Scriptures concerning the Messiah. And this course all the ancient fathers have followed (as appeareth plentifully in their works) in the confuting of those heretics, that you speak of, and all other, and consequently, in determining whither they or themselves had the direction of the holy Ghost in interpreting the Scriptures. And therefore they have given us rules, to help us in this case, as for example; Tertullian against Praxeas, hath given us this, Fewer places must be expounded by the more. Augustine this, The circumstance of the Scripture is wont to give light, and open the meaning, in his book of Questions, quaest: 69. Dark places are to be expounded by more plain places; that is the surest way of declaring the scriptures, to expound one scripture by another: in his 3. book of Christian doctrine, cap. 26. and in those books written of Christian doctrine many more very profitable. Which way Chrys: thought so sure a way, that he saith flatly, The holy scriptures expound themselves, and suffer not the Reader to err, in his 12. Homil: upon Gen: And yet for all this, to this trial will not you of the Church of Rome be brought, neither for the trial of your interpretations, nor yet for determining of this question, whither you have the spirit of truth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselves, for trial of their doings, to this, but your Popes think scorn to look so low: yea rather they will have all questions, wherein they are principal parties themselves, tried by themselves, and you and they cry out, that this is not the readiest way to end such questions. But who is so mad, as to think, that you can find out a better way, than Christ and his Apostles used? You will send us (say some of you) for the trial of these matters unto the doctors, and counsels, and yet when it cometh to the point, unless they and their sayings please you, ye reject them also. And you cannot deny, but that oftentimes also it is far more disputable and doubtful, what was their meaning, than what is the meaning of the Scripture: and you know also, that it is an usual thing with them, to send us back again to the Scriptures, for trial of their writings, as it appeareth in Augustine's 19 Epist. to Hirom, and in his 111. Epist, to Fortunatian. And therefore indeed (say you what you will) this is the safest, surest, and readiest way of trial of this and all other matters in question betwixt us, to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures. I would to God therefore, that once you would give over all other buy, and indirect trials, and come only to this: for than it would quickly appear, even to the simple, whither you, or we were rather to be followed. For all this, we join with you in the later end of your twenty three Chapter, in warning men to take heed, that they do not rashly believe & follow every one, that will pretend, that they have the scriptures on their side. But whereas you writ that the heresies, which you will after speak of, & that were condemned by the Catholic church, were as well & more largely confirmed by scriptures, than we can thereby confirm our Religion: therein first you most untruly report that of us, as we doubt not, but to make it evident unto the world, if you would once come to any indifferent trial with us: & secondly, I must admonish the reader, that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholic Church, but that that catholic Church, was not yours, nor as yours now is. For the differences be infinite betwixt yours, & the Church then, by reason whereof, there is as great difference betwixt the Church then, and yours now in effect, as there is betwixt ours now, and yours.  
In your recital of the heretics abusing the scriptures, divers things slipped from you also worthy the noting, namely these, that you could not content yourself, with showing us, how they did abuse the Scriptures, in wrong alleging them, but that (as though your fingers itched to show, that you had as good skill therein, as they) you still intermingle with theirs your own cunning, in showing how other places might be abused in like manner, neither confuting in the end their collections, nor your own, how dangerous soever. Another trick you have, in noting the truths impugned by them, and the manner how they went to work (though never so untruly) yet confidently to set down, that the things which we impugn in you were holden by the Church in equal degree of truth and reverence with them, that they set themselves then against: and that they cried out against traditions of men, and cried only for the written word, as we do; whereas in truth few or none of the things we condemn in you, were hatched then: and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion, to fly from the Scriptures, and to accuse them, as you do, and to urge traditions, & that they also used to urge other such like grounds for their heresies, as you do, as I have showed cap. 3. The last is, that for the most part you charge them with what you list, not showing us where you read or find ground for these things wherewith you charge them, belike lest in turning to the places & examining you proofs, we should to your discredit, have occasion thereby to descry in you, either some malice, error, ignorance, or some negligence at the least. For example, how prove you that which you writ cap. 22. that the Arrians alleged as many or more places, than the Catholics? Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned us, Hus and his scholars condemning them.  
But to pass on from these things, to your conclusion upon these premises, and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter, I grant you, by that which you have written in the former chapters, it may be seen that one ill disposed may soon allege scripture in a corrupt sense, but what is this to prove, that which you undertook cap. 22. that is, that the holy scriptures which we allege do not justify our doings. If you would have proved this indeed, you should have proved, that we allege the scriptures in a wrong sense, as these did that you have talked on: but that was to heavy a piece of work for you, & therefore you thought good not once to meddle with it. But yet as though either you had proved it, or else that it could not but without proof be granted you, you boldly affirm, as these heretics that you have talked of, have perished & their heresies, so shall we & our followers, if we repent not. Whereunto I answer first, that so repentance may be taken, that it is most true, that not only we & our followers, but you & yours also, & all men else, must repent, or else we all, you, and all other, shall perish: but taking it, as you do, for repenting of our religion, & of alleging of the scriptures which we do for the maintenance of it against you, you have said nothing at all as yet to make us once to think, that we have any need at all so, or thereof to repent. Secondly, I say that in thus saying, you have showed your malice & boldness more, than any thing else: for you have therein uttered nothing, but a blind prophets dream and fancy, which no man of any wisdom or discretion will make any reckoning of. It is well yet that the evidence of the truth, hath enforced you here to confess, that it may be seen in all the ancient ecclesiastical writers, that the doctors fully answered by texts of scripture, these old heresies by you before mentioned. For even thereby you may see, that though heretics never so much misaleage scripture, that yet the true ministers of the Lord, may & must allege them, even to answer & to confute their heresies by. And therefore it standeth still firm, that if we, by alleging of them aright can prove you heretics, & your opinions, which we strive against, heresies (which no further than we can do, we never crave any credit to be given us) whatsoever you would seem to have said, to beat us from alleging of them, that it appears that thereby both we, our doings and religion are sufficiently justified, both before God and man. These misalegers of scripture which in all these Chapters you have spoken of, you say, you will not stay to confute, for two causes, because they reign not now, and their heresies together with them the authors thereof are perished, & because the ancient doctors have confuted them as you say: but indeed the reason was, that you were loath to occupy either yourself or reader, in so profitable a matter. It seemeth you took more delight, in showing how the scripture might be misalleaged, to fortify heresy, then how rightly alleged, to confute the same, and therefore you could find leisure to stay 4. or 5 Chap. in that, but not at all upon this. Besides, if it be true that you have reported (if you had well remembered yourself) you would not so generally have said, that they were all perished. For read your Chap. over again, and you shall find, that therein you have spoken of some, that are not so quite dead and perished, but that even in these days they need to be confuted. But you say, that with you have here noted, either of them or of their heresies and their alleging of scripture for the sane, you have done it only to give warning to simple people, that they should not too rashly give ear to false pastors, which have nothing in their mouths, but the holy scripture and the pure word of God, so covering the cups of their poison, with the gold and precious stones which they have taken from the image of the eternal king, to paint those subtle foxes, that will lead them all to damnation. If you had indeed done it only to this end, you had not been to be misliked: but in deed and truth, you have done it, to breed in men a carelessness and negligence in searching the scriptures, and a contempt of alleging the same, to determine the controversies betwixt us and you. Otherwise think as you speak, and we are ready to join with you both in this, & also in that which you add, in wishing the simple and unlearned in reading the hard places, to take heed they fall not into error, by taking only the letter etc. For if great learned men thereby have been endangered, how much more may such. But surely this is rather a cave at meet and needful for you then for us, if we go no further, but to your peevish taking of the letter of hoc est corpus meum, contrary to all sound rules of right interpreting, as I have showed before.  
Now, whereas hereupon you take occasion, according to your manner, to jeer at our ministry, as though in France & England especially it were generally unlearned, and consisted of the basest and most contemptible of the people: you are worthy of small answer, your speech there about is so apparently false & slanderous. For, God be thanked, in both kingdoms, you yourselves are enforced to feel (to your whole kingdom's grief and deadly wound in the end I doubt not) that there are great store of learned ministers and bishops, far other manner of men, than you have named. And therefore your own conscience could not but tell you, unless it were seared with a hot iron, that they do in neither kingdom commit the guiding of the stern, without consideration, to all kind of people. In both places, both their doctrine & public order of their churches aimeth at a learned & godly ministry: whereof if in some particulars they fail (which in so great a multitude and compass altogether cannot be avoided) the fault is to be laid in the particular men, by whose negligence or corruption it so cometh to pass, and not in either of the churches, which would gladly, that no such fault should at all be committed. Howbeit I dare say, howsoever you ruffle in your terms of peddlers Cobblers, Tanners, Bankrupts and raunagates, and say that such be our interpreters of the scriptures, and that we hold every such one, once admitted by a bishop to be a minister, to have the spirit, and to be great doctors, to whom no place of scripture is too hard, because they can rail of the Pope, say all the ancient doctors were men, and the general counsels did err: that yet you can neither prove our ministers to be such, nor that for these bald reasons, we think any so qualified as you writ. It pleased you but in this, to show your spiteful and malicious spirit: but alas who will think (do you what you can) that you indeed mislike a base and unlearned ministry, who not only have held (and yet have as great cause so to do still as ever) that ignorance is the mother of devotion, but also upon that ground, have all your Church service in a tongue, that the people shall not understand, and content yourselves, for the most part with such priests, as can scarcely rightly read the same. Truly, if there had been but a crumb of right modesty & shamefastness in you, knowing as you do, the notorious baseness, grossness, and ignorance of your ordinary massepriestes, you would never have taken this pleasure, that it seemeth you did, in thus railing on, defacing and slandering of ours.  
Indeed by that saying of Christ, Matth. 11. (by you quoted joh. 8.) when we see what grace and gifts of knowledge God oftentimes amongst us bestoweth upon such: in the mean time, beholding in what great blindness and error a number of great Rabbins and doctors amongst you walk on still, we take occasion (as Christ hath taught us) to give thanks to our heavenly father, that hath revealed these things unto babes, which yet your great wise men, and men of understanding, see not. But you would not have us by this place to defend, that such mean men may come to be cunning and skilful in the Scriptures. Your reasons are two, for that other heretics have so alleged it; and for that this is to be understood of the humble in spirit, whereas these men of ours, trust to their own wits, and are puffed up with arrogant ignorance etc. You thought good yet neither to tell us what heretics, when, nor where: howsoever, you know (I trust) that men must not shame well to use that Scripture, that heretics have abused. Concerning your other reason, I grant you, the place is to be understood only of the humble and meek in spirit, and whosoever amongst us come unto the scriptures, trusting to their own wits, and so puffed up with ignorance (as you speak) we utterly mislike them as much as you. But that you should give forth this sentence of yours in such general terms, against simple & poor men amongst us, that travel in the Scriptures, you had neither reason, nor charity in so doing. Commonly such rash judging of others, proceedeth from a mind even so qualified, as you charge theirs to be, and from no other fountain. And who so considereth their gross ignorance, and errors, that remain in your great Clerks, every where notwithstanding these scriptures (what other learning soever they pretend) he hath most just occasion thereby to judge, that either they study the scriptures very little, or else that they come to them with the minds you talk of.  
And if you would tell us plainly, what you mean by humility of spirit (which in this case you speak of) we should soon perceive, that thereby you understand not true Christian humility, which through a base conceit that it breedeth in the owner, stirreth him up the more earnestly to crave assistance of God's spirit, and by diligent search of the Scriptures, and more careful use of all good means, to compass the right understanding of them: but a popish and slavish kind of humility, which must breed in the owner such a servile depending upon your Pope's will, and Church's tradition for the sense thereof, as that he admit no sense at all of them (though thrust upon him never so plainly by the evidence of the place) that will not fully agree therewith. Which breedeth in all of your side, either a flat giving over all reading of them, or else such a reading of them, as that they must bring a sense unto them from the tradition of your Church, and so enforce that upon them, whither they will or no, for howsoever the scripture speak, the Church's tradition may not be contraried. This is your humbleness of spirit, when you have brought God's spirit speaking in the Scriptures in subjection unto your popish spirit: but this is a proud humility, and a cursed meekness. You do but maliciously slander us, in that you would persuade your reader, that how bad and simple soever the man were before, assoon as a bishop hath made him minister, we say straight, he hath the holy Ghost, and no Scripture is to hard for him, if he can with all say the Lord, and rail upon the Pope etc. And yet I must tell you, that we think it not unlawful, but very necessary to paint out your Pope with the colours, that are due unto him, that men may the better beware of him: and yet we count that no railing; but we neither tie the holy Ghost to the imposition of the Bishop's hands, nor place any such matter in these things here mentioned by you, as you would lead your reader to imagine we do. You know we might as easily (and suit I am with far more truth) say, that with you, how lewd & unlearned soever the man be, yet when one of your bishops hath priested him, then if he can call the Pope most holy father, & speak reverently of your Cardinals, bishops & other prelate's, & say, fi● on these heretics, these Lutherans, and zwinglians, he is strait a famous and worthy catholic Priest with you. But whereas amongst other things, you object that as a fault to their disgrace, that they say the ancient doctors were men, and that the general Counsels have erred, it is but to discredit them with the simple. For you know, that the learned know, that both fathers and counsels have erred, & that you your own selves, when they writ or determine any thing which you like not, will and do as plainly as we acknowledge the same. For which point let a man read Andrad. first book written in defence of the Tridentine faith, and but what Pighius hath written of purpose for such cause, to discredit the sixth and seventh Sinods, and he shall most plainly perceive, that counsels are of no further credit with you, than they shall be found to say nothing to your mislike. But to make it clear, that it is no absurdity to say or hold, that counsels and fathers may err, and have erred: it is well known, that as the first Nicean council and sundry after, accordingly decreed a right, against the Arrians for the truth of Christ's manhood, so the Tyrian, the Sirmiense, the Ariminense, the Sebucian and the Antiochen counsel determined with the Arrians against the Nicean and the truth. The second council of Nice Act. 5. agreed that Angels and men's souls are bodily and circumscriptible, and yet this council, notwithstanding this gross error, was confirmed by the 6 council held at Constantinople, which Pope Agatho hath allowed for a general council. The 3. council of Carthage cap. 23. determined that all prayers at the altar should only be made to the father. The 2 council of Ephesus was on Eutyches the heretics side, and decreed for him. Your late counsels of Constance and Basil decreed a dangerous error (in your conceit I am sure) when they decreed the authority of the general council to be above the Popes. For your holy father could not be quiet, until he got the contrary decreed in other two Synods at Ferraria, and Florence. And in the 6 of Constantinople (mentioned before) there was a perilous heresy agreed on (I am sure in your judgement) Canonthirty six, against your Pope's title, namely that the Bishops of Constantinople should enjoy and have equal privileges with them of Rome. See also the twenty two Chapter of the Milevitan council Ca the 26. of the 3 council at Carthage and the 92 Chapter of the African, & the Epistles of the same, to Boniface & Celestine, and you shall find plain & direct Canons against the Supremacy, that now your Pope's callenge. You were best therefore not only to be content, that we say, general counsels may oer, but to learn to say so, aswell as we, yourselves all the sort of you or else you see, you are not friends to your holy father. You may do it, I warrant you, without any discredit. For August. a great doctor in his 2. book, & 3. Chap against the Donatists saith, that the very general counsels are often corrected, the former by the later, as often as by trial & experience the thing is opened, that before was shut. And therefore disputing against Maximinus li. 3. ca 14. he calleth him from the counsels to the touchstone of the scriptures. And as for the doctors, the same Aug. being one of the chief of them, in his 2. book. & 2. Chap. against Cresconius, plainly confesseth, that the judges, or doctors of the Church, as being men, are often deceived: & therefore in his 2 book of one baptism, he writeth, that we may argue & doubt of the writings of any bishop, whosoever he be, but we may not so do of the holy scriptures. If he had not thought, that he himself not only might, but had erred, would he ever have written as he did, a book of Retractions or Recantations? And indeed in his 2 book, & 4. Chap. ad Bonifacium, & against that 2. Epist. of the Pelagians, it appeareth, that he was of opinion, that of necessity children were to receive the Communion, or else they could not be saved: because it is written joh. 6. Except ye eat the flesh of the son of man, & drink his blood, ye have no life in you: and Pope Innocent, and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then. And yet I think now yourselves hold this to be an error, aswell as we. And who will read his fourth book de animâ & eius origine ad Vincentium, and his prologue to his retractions, he should there plainly find him confess, that there are many things in his words worthily to be found fault withal, which he craveth that his reader would not cleave unto in any case, but rather pardon and follow him non errantem, sed in melius proficientem: not erring, but better profiting: Yea in the later place he saith, that he would not arrogate that perfection to himself then being old, much less when he was young, not to err. And I think that you are not ignorant, that Irenaeus and Papias, were plain Millenaries: and that Cyprian & a number of bishops in his time in Africa, held in council decreed, that rebaptisation of those that had been baptised by heretics, which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now. Why therefore, especially when the names and titles of counsels or men are urged, to the prejudice of the truth taught in the scriptures, may we not say, that which is true, that they both might & have erred? And thus you have your answer, first generally to your principal scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters, set down together, because the drift of them was but all one: and now also a further answer to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered. But yet you have not quite done with this matter, let us therefore further follow you, to see if you have said any more to the purpose in that which is behind, then in that which we have heard already.    


The XXVII. Chapter.  
I Pray Sirs, since you are so absolute, answer me to this objection: 
a A vain question, for whoever of us either said or wrote so?  is it good to believe almaner of people, that do allege the Scriptures, or not If ye say, yea, why do not you believe the above named Valentinus, Apollinaris, Hebion, Cherintus and Nestorius, with divers others, that have sought to maintain their errors with the new & old Testament. If you say no, but that we ought rather to follow the counsel of S. john in his first Epistle, cap. 4. The which is, not to believe every spirit, but that we ought to prove, whether it be of God or no: 
b Our proof is, that our sen●e wherein we allege them, stands with the rest of the scriptures, is according to the analogy of faith and good manners, & received to be the sense of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church.  What proof will you show us of yours? Show the privilege that you have, by the which God dieth enjoin us to believe your Gospel, rather the the Gospel of the Pelagians, novatians, Nestorians, and other such false Apostles, considering that they have alleged the Scriptures aswell as you. If you say, that they were heretics, abusers of the people, and ravishing wolves clothed in lambs skins, and false interpreters of the Scriptures, all this is certain: 
a The more have they to answer for, that report so, for they can never prove it to be so.  But what though the like report goeth of you? Ye say, that ye are sent from Cod, to reform the Church, They say as much. 
b Which of 'em I pray you seeing they lived before the B. of Rome be●ame Antichrist.  They preached, that the Pope was Antichrist, 
c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not all one.  showing themselves very eloquent in detracting and railing against the Catholic Roman Church, you do the like. 
d You say so: but you ●ay more than you can prove.  At every word they did allege the Scriptures in their Sermons, to confirm their doctrine, as you do for yours. That that they preached, was called by them the Gospel, & the pure word of the Lord: these are the very terms that you use among your holy prophets: they have been condemned as heretics by the general Counsels, 
e Not yet by any lawful and f ee general council, was ever our religion, or any point of it condemned.  you are so likewise. They did appeal unto the pure word of God you do the like: Yet are they proved to be false 
f This i● flat dogs eloquence.  cogging knaves, and so shall you. Then seeing there is so great an uniformity between you, upon what ground 
g Upon this, that we are able to justify our alleging of them to to be sound and catholic, which they are not.  shall we confirm that reason that should condemn them as heretics, & allow you for Catholics. 
h This question is rather meet to be proposed to you, who have learned of the Donatists to tie the Church to your pope's sleeve and to shut it up within the narrow limits of his dominion  S. Augustine in his Epistle. 161. did put unto a Donatist called Honoratus this problem: We desire thee, not to think it much to answer us to this: what cause dost thou know, or what thing hath there been done, that hath made christ lose his inheritance, spread over all the world, to come to be contained only in Africa, & there only to remain? We put the like question to 
i Though your popish Church hath been none of his inheritance a good while, yet he hath had his inheritance always and ever will have, and this we hold and teach and therefore your question, is v●i●e, frivolous and flatterous  Caluin, Beza, Viret, & the rest, that it may please them to tell us, if that by chance they have been advertised, through what occasion our Saviour Christ hath lost his inheritance, that is to say, the Church spread over all the world, to remain now in the later days, with a company of rude Switzers, or in two or three corners besides, & not among the rest (for there is a great number of good Catholics) what badge can you show, or what sign to make us know, that you are the successors of the Apostles of Christ? If that the Scriptures that you allege, aught to be a sufficient proof, we are content to accept it, 
k There as no need that we should do so, because we can prove, that we allege them sound & they falsely & corruptly.  if you will be content to grant the like unto the above named heretics, which have fortified their camp with as many places more, than you do allege. Now if that (notwithstanding the scriptures by them alleged) you do condemn them as heretics, because that they did interpret them contrary to that that the 
l Understanding by the Church the true Church, that is one of our reasons, but that is not all, why we reject them and their manner of alleging them, principally we reject them, because by the plain evidence of the scriptures we can confute ●hem. And to despise the judgement of the popish Church, is not to despise the judgement of the true Church of Christ.  church doth teach (& to say truth, you can imagine no other excuse) to what purpose do you take upon you the names of Catholics, seeing that you commit the like offence? The diversities of those old heresies grounded upon the Scriptures ill interpreted, do teach us, that we should not permit the noise of your reformed Gospel that soundeth so shrill, to make us reel from 
a Yours is but ancient, as jeroboams religion was, when the 10 tribes were brought into captivity.  our ancient faith, & without going so far to seek that, that we have so near at hand. Let us talk of the present time, how many contrary sects doth there reign? How many heads of heresies? 
b With variety of names, you need lesly increase the number, as your forefathers were wont to do, with those whom they first called Waldenses.  Some are Lutherans, some Anabaptists, some Puritans, some protestāns, some Precisians, & all these do fortify their camps with Scriptures, to fight one against another. The Zwinglians & the Caluinists on the other side do write, that all these do err, and they prove it by Scripture. The Anabaptists laugh at all the rest. The Prophet's Celestes, which is another sect, do no less, grounding themselves upon their revelations, because that David saith: 
* Psalm. 84.  Hear what the Lord doth speak in me. The Deists or Trinitaries, which are come last of all, cry out and say, that all they are heretics, and they prove it by the old and new Testament. I pray now tell me, which of all these shall I receive, seeing that they do all allege the holy Scriptures? If we receive some and not all, those that are refused will say, that we offer them wrong: for they have 
c This is but your saying still, for you shall never be able to prove this.  their shops stored with as good stuff of the scriptures, and aswell alleged as all the rest. If we receive them all, it will be a renewing of the old confusion of Babylon, through the neglecting of so many Gospels. If you say, that we ought to follow those that conform themselves most unto the pure word of God, that will come to one end: for if I do demand of you, how we shall know which do conform themselves most unto the truth, 
d Indeade we say and we are not ashamed of it, that only by the assistance & direction of the holy Ghost, in trying their interpretations by the scriptures, it must be discerned who alle●geth them best.  you answer me, that it must be done by the grace of the holy Ghost, sent by the Lord, if with a true heart he is invocated of the faithful. Seeing you know so well the way how to agree together, how cometh it to pass, that you have not used it this forty or fifty years, which are the precincts of the time, since your ancient Church began: seeing that you have assembled so many times together, 
e We have done so, and God's name be praised for it, so far we have obtained our prayer, that we are able by the light of God's spirit to discern, who amongst all these and all others (amongst whom you papists are the principal) alleages them best, & with those we hold peace, for the rest we morn, yet comforting of ourselves with this, that necessary it is for the trial of the Lords, that there be such sects.  why have ye not prayed unto the Lord, to send the spirit of truth to make peace amongst his Apostles? I think that you are not so unshamefast, that you will deny the quarrels and debates, that have risen among you: 
f The stir betwixt these two, though it hath been more than should be, yet neither so much hath it been, at least for the followers of Caluin, as you would seem, nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongst yourselves often.  I do not say, in light words, but in great battles, in railing processes, in horrible excommunications, sent from the Churches of the Lutherans unto the Caluinists, & from the Caluinists unto the Lutherans, as I have set forth at large in the book that I made of the Sacrament: & therefore ye are greatly overseen, that ye have not invocated the spirit of the Lord, as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechism, to the end that you may come to some accord.   

The XXVII. Chapter.  
FIrst here you ask us, whither it be good to believe all manner of people that allege scripture? We answer you, no: but with S. joh. 1. Epist. 4. We wish all men to try the spirits whither they be of God, or no, before they believe them. And we add further with john in the same place, Hereby shall ye know the spirit of God. Every spirit that confesseth, that jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: and that spirit, which confesseth not that, is not of God, but is the spirit of Antichrist. By which words we answer fully your second demand also, and give you a proof, that our spirit is of God: and yet neither these heretics, which you name, nor yours any better, than that spirit of Antichrist, which john speaketh of. For I am sure, you must needs grant me (if you consider these words of Saint john well) that he speaketh here only of confessing soundly, and rightly, that jesus Christ is come in the flesh: which we do (as we are able to prove) by the Scriptures truly alleged, and neither they nor you are able to prove that, and therefore this is a plain proof, that ours is of God, and neither yours nor theirs can be. They confess him not aright to be come in the flesh, in that one way or other, they erred not only in the doctrine of his office, but also held some heresy or other against the truth of his person. And you confess him not aright to be come in the flesh, because not only with some of the ancient heretics (as namely the Marcionites) for the love you have to your fiction of Transubstantiation, you hold him to have such flesh, as shall for your peevish pleasures be without all the natural properties of human flesh, and so a very phantasm and not flesh indeed, but also most craftily you take from him that glorious office, that the Scripture giveth him, and translate it to what you list, and so in effect you deny the cause of his coming. For to what end came he, but to execute that office, that we are taught in the Scripture, his heavenly father appointed him? Deny therefore that he hath executed that office, and you deny the cause of his coming. And you know, sublatâ causâ tollitur effectus: deny the cause and the effect is denied. I know you will think, that I offer you great wrong, in charging you thus directly with denying Christ of his office: but if you will have patience a little, if I prove it not, let me have the shame thereof. You will say for your defence, that you confess and acknowledge him to be the Saviour and redeemer of the world: and you will say, you believe by him to be saved: I do not deny, but you will and do say all this, and more also; but what is that to the purpose, as long as in your deeds and practise you go from it again, and rob him of that honour, that is due unto him? judas said unto him, Hail master, and kissed him, when indeed he betrayed him: and Pilate wrote him, jesus of Nazareth king of the jews, and yet crucified him. But to come nearer unto you, it cannot be denied, but that the false Apostles, that gave Paul occasion to write to the Galathians, did not deny these things, which you give out in words of Christ, this only was their fault, that they taught men to join their own merits, attained unto by the observing of Moses law, together with Christ in the office of justifying them, as it most clearly appeareth, throughout that Epistle. For having of which conceit in their observations of Moses law, and namely in being circumcised (for otherwise in the same place he saith, neither circumcision, nor uncircumcision availeth any thing) he telleth them most confidently chap. 5. that Christ should profit them nothing: yea, that they were abolished from Christ and fallen from grace. Whereupon most evidently it followeth, that Paul was of this mind, that howsoever the law was observed of them that believed in Christ, it might not be observed with this mind and to this end, thereby together with Christ to justify the observer. You cannot say, that here Paul speaketh of observing the law, to this end before they had faith. For he speaketh to such, as after they had by his ministry attained unto faith in Christ, were now taught by false teachers, to join their own merits in observing Moses law, with Christ in justifying. But yet you say, he speaketh in this, and in such places only of the works of the ceremonial law, which was then abolished: wherein you say more, than you can prove. For he so excludeth works from this office of justifying, that he oft advoutcheth, that justification cometh freely, as Rom. 3. Ephes. 2. and he calleth salvation the free gift of God, Rom. 6. and therefore as little cometh it for moral works sake, as for Ceremonial. But though you could prove, that he disableth only Ceremonial works, yet you could not escape the sentence set down by the Apostle against such, as do them to the end aforesaid. Yes, say you, for we do not teach men to observe them at all, much less to any such end. What then? you have deviled a number of Ceremonial works of your own, as the observing of holy days, and fasting days, going on pilgrimage, offering to this shrine, & that, taking of holy water, creeping to the Cross, wearing of this thing and that, and a thousand such other, which you persuade men and women to observe, with as great an opinion to merit thereby, as ever the false Apostles taught either Galathians, Colossians, or any other to observe Moses Ceremonies. And you must remember, that Paul reasoneth to the Col. cap. 2. that seeing they were in Christ freed from the ceremonies of Moses law, which he calleth there, the ordinances of the world, much more they ought to take themselves freed from traditions, touch not, taste not, handle not, and very reason will tell you, that if in Paul's time it were a denying and renouncing of Christ, to observe the Ceremonies, that God himself had appointed once, and which so long by his own ordinance had been kept in the Church, with that opinion thereby together with Christ to be justified: much more is it so, to observe these beggarly Ceremonial ordinances of yours, which yet never had any allowance from God, but do flatly contrary his will in his word. I know you Jesuits have taught you yet one shift more, and that is this; that you have not any such opinion in your works moral or Ceremonial, nor in any thing else, that you do, or use, wherein you have opinion of merit, for their own dignity, or worthiness considered in themselves, but for that they are tincta sanguine Christi, that is, advanced to that force and dignity thorough the force of the death and passion of Christ. Wherein sathan (as it seemeth) hath been put to try the uttermost of his cunning. For therein (doubtless) is contained (though colourably) a deep mystery of iniquity: and yet under new colours, the very same antichristianity in robbing Christ of his office, that was before. For the reason, why we charge you with denying Christ's office, is, that we take it taught in the word, that he is a sole, and whole, a full and perfect Saviour in himself, and by himself, because it is write●● Math. 22. that in the marriage of the kings son, all things are prepared already: and Act. 4. that his name is the only name whereby cometh salvation. And we find, that you communicate (at least) some part of this office to men's own works and satisfactions, and that (which is more monstrous) to the works and satisfactions of others, and to a number not only of vain and frivolous things, as to holy water, hallowed grains, Agnus Dei and such like, but also to the doing of some things, which we know and are most sure of, are horrible sins before God, as to your blasphemous Masse-saying, and to the unnatural murdering or deposing of lawful Princes by their own subjects, at your Pope's pleasure and commandment. And by this new shift, none of this former dealing is recanted, or revoked: but only this is added, that these things thus communicate with Christ in justifying and saving, not simply by their own virtue, force, and dignity; but by an efficacy, that they have got thorough Christ. Whereupon it must needs follow, doth before God and true Christians, that you are grown more injurious to Christ, then ever any of your forefathers were. For whereas before, you yourselves alone rob Christ of his office; whiles you taught plainly, that these things ex condigno, & ex opere operato, that is, even in respect of their own dignity, and by the work wrought, were meritorious to everlasting life: now you continue not only your former robbing of him yourselves, but you will make him the principal, or (at least) accessary to this robbing of himself. For now in effect you tell us, that he came, and did those things, which he did in his own person, not thereby in and by himself to begin and finish our salvation, but to merit by his doings and sufferings, that these things done by us and others for us, should be the formal cause of our righteousness, and so of our justification and salvation. So that now Christ is only a Saviour in meriting, that these things (which otherwise should never have had that force and efficacy) should have a power to deserve and procure our salvation. Is not this now a trim office, that you have devised for Christ, that he should be a Saviour only in procuring ability to these things to save? What one jot of Scripture have you for this? Nay, as the Scripture doth manifestly take from works, yea even from the moral and most righteous works done by the faithful after regeneration, the office of justifying (as it may appear, in that Abraham's works and Paul's, when they were in that state, though they were never so full of them, are disallowed to have any such effect. Rom. 4.2. Phil. 3.8.9.) so doth it teach us, that Christ came not, to make other persons or things to have the office of saving men's souls, but to begin and go thorough that work so himself, as that no part of that glory shall be communicated to any other person, or thing. For therein we read, that his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree: & that by his stripes we are healed. 1. Pet. 2.24. & so perfectly, that it is written Heb. 10.14. we are sanctified by the offering of the body of jesus Christ once made, & with one offering hath he consecrated for ever, them that are sanctified. Whereupon he calleth himself Alpha & Omega, Revel: 1.11. that is, the first beginner, and last accomplisher of our salvation, or as it is said Hebr. 12. the author and finisher of our faith. Whereas by this new jesuitical divinity, in the matter of justification, and salvation, Christ hath but so borne our sins in his own body and offered himself to death for us, that howsoever thereby he hath begun to heal and cure us, the ending and finishing it, must be by those other things, and he hath done all this to no purpose, unless his work begun be ended by these things following, in ourselves and others.  
O what intolerable blasphemy is this! and into what a bottomless pit of desperation do these men, the authors of this doctrine, wilfully cast themselves! For if the case stand so, as they say, how is it possible for any man at any time ever to have a faith without wavering? which kind of faith S. james determineth to be fruitless. jam. 1. For when can any man tell, that he hath hit of all those things, that are left besides Christ's merits, to accomplish the full merit for his salvation? Or how can the soul of man standing before the judgement of God, without any warrant from God, and contrary to all reason, persuade itself, that it shall have heaven for these things, so full of imperfection and vanity, if not impiety? Further, to prove that you deny Christ his own office, and pin upon him an office of your own devising, it appeareth also in this, that you will not let him be King, Prophet, & Priest to his Church, as the scriptures teach him to be. For neither will you suffer him to govern his kingdom, according to his own orders, neither to teach his people only with his own word, nor to save them only by his own obedience and merits. But in all these you cross him, in bringing in a number of fashions, laws, and ordinances, yea officers, and offices into his house, that he never said Amen unto, in teaching men rather the traditions and inventions of men, than doctrine only, that hath warrant from his mouth, and in setting up a number of means to salvation besides him.  
Now as for us, we neither with the ancient heretics, nor yet with you hold any heresy concerning either his person, or office. For concerning the one, we hold and believe, that he is perfect God, and perfect man, and yet but one person consisting of those two natures: and concerning the other, that he is such a Saviour, as that he hath begun and finished whatsoever was necessary to merit or deserve our full salvation by. And therefore when we have done all the good works, that possibly by his grace we can, yet, though we know and believe that God will both accept of us, & of those our good works for his Christ's sake, for fear of robbing him of any part of that office that he took upon him, we dare not think, that thereby we have any manner of way merited any part of our salvation. That only we seek at his hands, and through him and his merits alone we look for it. This doctrine in every point hath warrant from the Scriptures, and from all sound antiquity. And this and the rest of our whole doctrine tendeth greatly to advance the glory of God, both in setting forth the severity of his justice against sin, even to the least sin, and the infiniteness of his free mercy in Christ: and altogether to throw down man under the burden of his sins, both original and actual, that he may seek to rise again not at all by any strength of his own, but only by the grace of God in Christ jesus. Whereas yours contrarily tendeth to this end, to lift up man in a conceit of himself, and to obscure both the justice, and the mercy of God: As your doctrines of free will, man's ability to keep and overkeepe the law: of venial sins, even for the littleness of them, and of man's own justifying of himself, may make most evident to them, that consider of them. And therefore seeing it is written, that God resisteth the proud, & giveth grace to the humble: James. 4.6. and that it is his property, to send away the rich empty, and to fill the hungry with good things, Luk. 1.53, & to justify the publican, & to send the pharisee home without: Luk. 15. a great sign this is, yea a good proof, that we, rather than you, are led by the spirit of God. And as for these old heretics, you are bound to believe us, rather than them, because our doctrine not only by the testimony of the Scriptures, but also (I dare say) even in your own consciences, is sounder both concerning the person and office of the Messiah, then theirs: and thus you are answered both to your first, and second question, which you put unto us in this Chapter.  
But yet you go on, and say, they alleged Scriptures as well as we: that we deny, for they alleged them corruptly, to prove their heresies, and would not be drawn to expound one Scripture by another, but peevishly urged the literal or wrong sense of some hard places, against the circumstances both of the same places, and that which is manifestly taught in others: which is your fashion altogether: and we allege them truly to confirm only the truth, and therefore are very well contented, that our interpretations should be tried by all sound and good rules of interpreting. Whereas you add, If we say, they were heretics, and abused the scriptures, etc. the like report you say is of us: I say, the more is their fault that so report of us, for they can never prove it. Howbeit to make your report seem the more probable, you compare our dealings with theirs, which (by your saying) are very like. But the reader must be advertised, that you frame their speeches & doings here without book: I mean, without warrant of any good author that reporteth these things of them, even of your own head, that so you may the better make their speeches and ours alike. I pray you, in what good author did you ever read (and yet here you confidently advoutch it) that the Palagians, novatians, Nestorians etc. (who were long dead, and buried before your Pope was hatched) preached, that the Pope was Antichrist? It may be true that you writ, that some of them railed against the Roman Church, that then was. But, alas, what is this for your Romish Church now, which is no more like that then, than an apple is like an oyster? Indeed this is one of your tricks, wherewith you cousin the poor simple people. For it is the fashion of you all, when you find in any ancient father, any thing that soundeth to the credit of the Catholic church, or to the commendation of the Roman Church in their days, to allege it as spoken in the commendation of your Romish church now a 1000 years after their death, whereas there is more difference betwixt yours and that, which they speak of, in weighty & material points of doctrine, and discipline, then in years. If your Romish Church now would return to the state of the ancient church of Rome, and grow once like that, you and we should soon agree. For that is the thing, that we will stand upon with you, that it is you in your railing upon our churches, that according to the fashion of these ancient heretics rail upon the church of Rome that then was, rather, than we. For our churches are 1000 times more like it indeed, than yours as it is now. Nether are you able to produce your authors, to prove that these heretics did at every word allege scripture, or appeal only thereunto. For the contrary is evident both in Epiphanius, Tertullian, Irenaeus, August: and others that wrote against them. For they testify, that many of them shunned the trial of the Scriptures only, and fled, even as you do, to traditions, succession of fathers, visions, & other such like motives, as counsels, fathers, antiquity, consent etc. as I have showed cap. 3. & as appeareth evidently in divers of these father's writings, as in Tertul: in praescrip: contra haeret: Epiphanius in many places de haeresibus: Chrysost: in Math: 4. Irenaeus libro: 3. cap. 2. August: Contra Maxim: lib. 1. de Baptismo contra Donatist: lib. 3. cap. 2. in joan: Tract. 13. de unitate Ecclesiae: cap. 15. Epist. 165. ad Generosum. Who but one of your Religion would ever thus grossly abuse his simple poor Reader? You yet, as a man that had said all this while nothing, but that you might truly say, proceed on with your comparison, & tell us, that they were condemned by general Counsels, & so are we: they were found cogging knaves, and so shall we. Whereunto I answer, that those which you call general Counsels, were but late Conventicles of your own, since the apostasy of your Church from the ancient Roman Church, wherein there was indeed no freedom of a lawful Council enjoyed, and therefore whose condemnation we need care no more for, then Christ and his Apostles needed to care for the sentence of condemnation, that in their times the high Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees gave of them and their doings in their counsels. And as for your unmannerly prophecy, we need not esteem it. For neither is your mouth any slander, nor yet do we take you to be a true Prophet. But seeing (say you) they and you be thus like, why should they be condemned for heretics, & you absolved, & received? I answer, the likelihood is denied, and the reason I have given you already. As for Augustine's problem you talk of, it is impertinent, and toucheth us not. For we do not with the Donatists shut up Christ's inheritance within the compass of any place, as they did in Africa, neither say we that Christ at any time hath lost his in heritance, but we say, that Christ hath had always, and hath still his Church without restraint of place, wheresoever it pleaseth him: neither doth it remain now only with a few rude Swissers, and in two or three corners besides, as it pleaseth you to speak. For it is well seen, that diverse whole kingdoms, as England, Scotland, and Denmark have received our Religion, and that indeed it groweth so mightily in most places, that it maketh the stoutest of you greatly fear, that ere it be long, your kingdom of the Pope will be greater in the west Indies, then in these parts.  
Having done with urging this problem (which indeed fitteth you Papists better, then us, in that you tie Christ's inheritance to your Pope's girdle) you tell your Reader (but you mean to prove it at leisure) that these heretics, that you have talked on all this while, have fortified their camp with as many more places, as we allege: and therefore once again you would have a reason, why that notwithstanding they should be counted heretics, and not we? You make us answer, because they did interpret them contrary to the Church's doctrine: which you suppose, is the only answer we can give. But I have told you, that because when there is question of truth, there is commonly also question of the church, our answer is, that their alleging of them was heretical, & ours true and right, as may be proved by the scriptures themselves, and by the right rules of interpreting of them. But be it, that we answer as you imagine, what have we lost, or you gained thereby? This say you, that you have no more right, than they, to be counted Catholics, because you allege them also contrary to the Church's doctrine. Here again you deceive both yourself and your Reader, with the ambiguity of the word Church. For if we answer, that we reject their allegations, for that they alleged them contrary to the Church's doctrine that then was: we by the Church, understand a sound and sincere church of Christ in possession of sound Religion, and not whatsoever Synagogue will entitle itself with the name of the Church, and so under the name of the Church war against the true church. In which sense only your Church (against whose doctrine we allege them) hath the name of a church. And yet you, as though it must needs be granted you, that your church is aswell the church of Christ, as that that was in their times, you make our fault and theirs one, because we contrary yours, which is the church falsely so named: whereas they in theirs contraried the church's doctrine truly so termed. You must prove therefore your Church now, and that which was 1000 years ago, at least, to be all one in doctrine (which you can never do) before you can prove their fault and ours to be all one. Howsoever this use yet, you will make of the variety of opinions, and the alleging of the Scriptures by these heretics, that you will not remove from your Religion, or faith (which falsely you call ancient) for all the shrill noise of our Gospel. Whereunto this only I reply, that if now (the diversity betwixt their dealing and ours herein showed you, as it is) you that notwithstanding persist in this mind upon this ground, you therein shall show yourselves to be led rather by will, than wit, or any sound wisdom.  
But at last you give over wandering any longer so far abroad, for examples to this purpose, and you will talk (you say) but of the sects and heads of heresies of this present time: who all likewise allege scripture, and condemn one another. And therefore, having reckoned up Lutherans, anabaptists, Puritans, Protestants, Precisians, Zwinglians, calvinists, Caelestes, Deistes, & Trini●●ries, you would know of us, which of these you should receive. And to make your question the harder to answer, you add (saying) If we receive some, and not all, they that are refused will think they have wrong offered them. For they have as good store of scripture well alleged, as the rest: and if all should for this cause be received, then thereupon would follow a babylonical confusion. This objection, taken from the variety of sects and opinions in these days, I have so answered in answering to your fourth chapter, that thereby I have made it most clear, that (though you had as great ground for it as you pretend) yet all that variety neither can nor aught to prejudice any thing our Religion. And therefore unto that answer of mine hereunto, I must refer the reader both now and hereafter, whensoever it cometh, for his satisfaction: yet this here I would have him further to note, that to make the number seem the greater, you have here reckoned up them as different Sects, & heads of heresies, amongst whom either there is full agreement, as betwixt them, whom you call Caluinists and Zwinglians, or but such difference, as notwithstanding they agree in the substantiallest, and fundamental points of Religion, as the Lutherans & Caluinists, the Protestants, & they whom you term Puritans. Which differences if they be sufficient with you to make different Sects, & several heads of heresies, then as many several orders as there be amongst you of your religious men, and women, and as many several sorts of schoolmen as you have, differing amongst themselves, in questions of divinity, so many several Sects there are amongst you: all which would rise to a marvelous long beadrole. And indeed he that considereth well these things, though he shall find you like sampson's foxes tied together by the tails, with the thong of the Pope's supremacy, yet otherwise he shall and may most easily find, that you are far more justly to be charged, to nourish within your Synagogue of Rome, multitudes of sects, and heads of heresies than we, both for that you exceed infinitely in number and matters, and for that whereas some of ours, to our grief, unwillingly are termed by our enemies Lutherans, Caluinists, Zwinglians, etc. you delight and take pleasure in your distinct titles of division, as to be called Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits etc. Secondly, there are some of these, which you here name as Caelestes, Deistes, & Trinitaries, and the Sect of the family of love (wherewith elsewhere some of you charge us) who are far liker you then us, and have rather sprung up amongst you, and of you, them of us. And this is certain, that all these, our men have been more painful to detect, and confute them, than ever were yours. Our answer therefore to your demand hereupon builded, is this, though all these allege scripture, yet neither allege they it aswell as we, neither is there any remedy, but that you must and aught to receive them, for the true members of the Catholic church (howsoever others allege them) that allege them best & soundliest. But then, you will say, you are as far of, as you were in the beginning, seeing every one will stand upon this, that he and his side allege them best, and therefore once again you will reply & say, that to determine who doth best allege them, is a thing so hard, that few shall be able to find it out: and therefore in the end you shall be driven to think it necessary, that the Pope should be judge in this case, otherwise men shall never be at a certainty whom to follow. Hereunto I answer that the harder the matter is, the more pains men ought to take thereabout, seeing to know and find the truth, standeth them so much upon: secondly, I say with S. Paul, that when you and all the world have done what you can, there must be heresies amongst men, that they which are approved amongst them may be known. 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly, how hard soever it seem, yet by searching of the scriptures, & examining the allegations & interpretations of them, by the rules of right interpreting (which I before set down) in humility of spirit, God will lead them that be his (how simple soever) at one time or other by the direction of his spirit, to find out who they be, that soundliest handle them. For he hath promised, If we seek, we shall find, and if we knock it shall be opened unto us. Mat. 7.7. And as for the judgement of the Pope, or any one certain man, or company of men, because the Lord in his wisdom foresaw what was in man, & so how prone to err: in this case he hath not appointed us any such to run unto for the determining of this matter. And therefore it is intolerable presumption for any such to take upon them, that the Lord hath made them such judges in this case, that they cannot err. The ministry of men, conference with men, reading of men's labours upon matters of Religion, & such other good helps, with an earnest and humble invocation of the name of God, for the direction of his spirit, are to be used carefully of every man, as he may, in this case But when all cometh to all, we see no other, but that it is the will & pleasure of our God, rather to leave us thus to be exercised in scearching the scriptures, & in traveling by these means to find out the truth, & to settle ourselves therein, them to send us for full resolution to any one man or men, lest so we should after be deceived through the error of those men, than we shall be this other way. Seeing therefore Christ took this way himself, both with the devil himself, & with his chaplains, both to confute their errors & erroneous interpretations, & to confirm the truth, by searching the scriptures: and neither he nor his Apostles sent us either by word or their example, to the high Priests then, or unto any other for resolution of the church or truth, this way as the best & only way we think all Christians bound to take. And in so doing, let not any man despair, but that through the goodness of God, he shallbe enabled to try the spirits, & to discern, who amongst all other allege the scriptures soundliest. For we see it is the fashion of our God, to reveal his truth and the mysteries thereof, to those that be his; how simple soever, when he doth conceal & hide them from the great men of the world. Mat. 11.1. Cor. 1.  
But you say, If this may and must be attained by the grace of the holy ghost, obtained of the lord by faithful invocation of his name, how chanceth it, that since Luther (for no ancienter you say, (though it be never so false) our Religion is) you have not obtained that holy ghost, to end your hot contentions and debates amongst yourselves, that so you might be at unity yet amongst yourselves? This is spoken, as though it must needs follow, that either we have not faithfully prayed unto God for his spirit, or else, if we have, that then of necessity there neither could be, nor would be, any difference of opinions, and contentions at all amongst us. If you be of this mind, then the manifold differences, schisms, sects, & varieties of opinions, that have been, and yet are, in your church (as I have noted cap. 4.) argueth in your Logic, that your church never yet prayed faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost. But indeed your argument is nought. For it appeareth (joh. 17.) that Christ himself prayed for unity amongst his Apostles, and all that should believe their doctrine; & no doubt of it, he was heard in that he prayed for. Heb. 5.7. and obtained, for his heavenvly father would deny him nothing: and yet you have heard (cap 4.) after this there were varieties of opinions, and hot contentions betwixt some of them, that doubtless of both parts were within the compass of Christ's prayer. And therefore that prayer of Christ, and the prayers of his servants made to that end, are to be understood to take place, and to be effectual, in that there is so much unity amongst the true members of the Church attained thereby, as is sufficient to hold them together in the communion of saints: which is, if they join together in holding the foundation, and fundamental points of Religion, though otherwise there be differences and h●at contentions sometimes amongst them. And it may not be thought (as you seem to take it) that such prayers either are not effectually made, or else there must follow thereupon simply an universal accord in all things. For than Christ's prayer was not effectual, in that after, Paul and Barnabas were at a●arre Act. 15. etc. That unity, that you speak of, the Church may strive for here, but she is not to make her account to attain unto it, before she come in heaven and be married to her husband there. And so much unity there is betwixt us, and those whom we count members of Christ's Church with us, as that, though there be some variety of opinions, and therefore also contention but too much, yet we join so together here in the foundation, and other most principal points of our Religion, that we doubt not, but the Lord hath heard our prayers, and granted us the spirit of unity so far forth, as that one day we hope in heaven all to join together in perfect unity, notwithstanding the jars that otherwise in the mean time, to try us withal, be found amongst us. You know we pray daily, that Gods will may be done in earth, as it is in heaven (and so do you, or you are to blame) and herein we hope, we are heard: and yet simply we never found, nor shall, as long as the world standeth, the will of God so done here, as it is in heaven. For continually there is disobedience to his will here in one thing or other, one way or other, even amongst the best, but in that, in such measure, as God seethe this fit to be obtained here, he granteth it, we are notwithstanding to think our prayers effectual. Christ himself prayed (john. 17.15) to deliver his church from evil, and yet though that prayer was heard, in that God so far forth preserveth his church from evil; as he seethe it expedient for the state thereof here, we see daily that many are the troubles, and evils that the poor church is encumbered withal. And therefore (to conclude) you must understand, that the faithful prayers of God's saints are to be accounted effectual, though the thing they pray for, be not obtained in full perfection here, as long as so much here is obtained, as the Lord seethe to be necessary and convenient for the estate of his servants. So that notwithstanding the differences amongst us, you might and would (if you had the grace) join rather with us in our Religion, then continue in that wherein you are; the professors whereof are torn a sunder with more and greater differences, than the churches that receive ours are: howsoever you deceive the simple with the vizard of unity, in that you join together under your Pope against the truth.    


The XXVIII. Chapter.  
NOw to turn again to our former purpose, if it were so, that of our own free deliberation we were minded to forsake our Catholic Religion, 
a If you should be of no Religion, whiles all of one, were full of one mind●, you must die a nullifidian I warrant you.  the injurious disputations that you use among yourselves, were sufficient, to make us to suspend our judgement, without leaving to any of both parties, until that we could see more resolute in your opinions, being the bardest matter, the knowing in what country the residence should be kept for that matter. 
b Where & when? nay our absolute sentence i●, as our books do testify, and we prove it out of the ancient fathers, that your doctrine in this point is but new, & a very young, ●●ng, in comparison of that you would here have it seem.  You have given absolute sentence, saying, that the Catholic church hath erred, even from the Apostles time unto this present, in praying to God for the souls of those that are dead, constituted in a third place called Purgatory. You should, me think, at the least allow a third place, although it be not that, to receive the souls of those, whose consciences you have so troubled, that they know now, neither what is their faith, nor of what Religion they should be: 
c Such v●setled and unstable persons for all your foolish gibing, you know well enough who hath a right unto and that ●heir place is known, though your purgatory had never been dreamt of.  for when they read Luther's works they are Lutherans, when they meet with Caluins works they are Caluinists, & at the last they do not know, which side indeed is the truest, being both false: & therefore I think it were good, that a sequestration were made, that neither God nor the Devil might have part of their souls, till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects, & that some good and honest arbitrator might give judgement, as concerning which party hath most right. And in the mean while I beseech god, to open so the eyes of the people, that they may see both your errors and their own, and that through the abundance of their sins, he permit them not to fall into an Heathenism, unto the which you do seek to draw them with so many contrary Gospels.   

The XXVIII. Chapter.  
ONce again you object unto us, the contention betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists: which (you say) is cause sufficient, not only to make you stay from yielding your consent to either of us, though otherwise you were willing to forsake your Religion, which wrongfully you call Catholic: but also so troubleth the consciences of them that read the books written on both sides, that they are led one while on the one side, anon again on the other, & so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes, though otherwise (as you say) we give absolute sentence, that the Catholic church hath erred, even from the Apostles times to this present, in praying to God for the souls in purgatory, you think yet we should appoint some third place or other to receive their souls, until it were determined, with of these belong to God, and which to the devil. And then you conclude this Chapter, with a solemn prayer to God, to open the people's eyes to see both our errors, & their own sins, lest for them thorough these varieties of opinions amongst us, they be drawn to heathenism by God's permission. This contention in the later end of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplify, telling us of great battles, railing processes, and horrible excommunications, that have passed about this matter of the sacrament, on both sides: and yet there, in another book, which you have made (you say) of the sacrament: you signify unto us, that you have bestowed more cost to amplify this matter. Against this & such like outcries of these men about this matter (gentle Reader) thou art to arm and strengthen thyself, with that which I have set down in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter: whereby I have made evident demonstration unto thee, that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church, and true members thereof, to have as great & hot contentions, as ever there hath been amongst us in this. And if that which I have said there were not sufficient, I could now further show you, that not only there is as great a controversy now and hath been a long time amongst themselves, the nature of their Religion considered, as any they can charge us with: namely this, whither their Pope or general Counsels have the greater and higher authority, but also I might easily again say, and say truly (as they themselves know well enough) that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ, there were such lamentable and grievous contentions between Paulinus and Flavianus, Lucifer and Eusebius, the Meletians and Eustathians, all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest points of Religion sound Christians, as that with great trouble to the Church, they shunned one another's communion, and that for very many years together, as you may read in Epiphanius libro. 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. etc. in Socrates libro. 2. cap. 33. & 34. and in Zozomen libro. 2. cap. 17. & 18. And we read histor: tripart: libro. 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hot contention and enmity (and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both) that departing one from the other, the one spitefully said to the other, thou shalt never die Bishop, and the other said to him as uncharitably, neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopric alive: both which their imprecations or predictions, as the story shows, came even so to pass. For Chrysostome died banished, and the other before he got home to Cyprus. If you would see what controversy there was betwixt Cyprian, Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome, read Augustine contra Donatistas libro. 5. cap. 23. & 25. and Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 3. & 4. And who is so ignorant, that the Church stories and ancient writers, ministers unto us but too too great store, in all ages of controversies, and those also too hoatly followed even amongst Christians, of great name and fame in their times. And therefore what vain thing is it either for you, or any of your fellows in this sort still to amplify this one controversy about the Sacrament amongst us, as though it were sufficient cause of all, or of any of these things, which you infer thereupon against us. Had there been any wisdom in them that lived in these ancient times, when these contentions were that I have spoken of here and elsewhere, thereupon to have gathered either all, or any of these things? Nay, it is evident, that if thereupon they had either stood a loof from the truth, grown Neuters or Atheists, that they had been without excuse before God. For seeing to know the truth, and to be settled in it, is a thing so necessary as it is, the more difficult it is made by such means to find it out, the more thereby they that are the Lords, and have any grace, are provoked to labour, and search to find it, and to settle themselves the stronglier in it. And therefore seeing such offences have been, and always in some measure are like to be for the exercising of the Church, and trial of God's children▪ you and such as you, that by such discourses, as this, lead the people to gather such lessons thereupon, as to suspend their judgement till all parts be agreed, or now to be carried this way, now that way, as long as the contention lasteth, seem to be disposed, to teach the people to learn how to be Atheists. If you minded to have them settled in Religion, and preserved from neutrality, the mother of Atheism, it were your parts to join with us (especially in these great diversities of opinions about Religion, that be now a days in the world) to persuade them most diligently to search the Scripture, and thereby to try all spirits, and their opinions, whither they be of God or no: yea even so much the more, for these variety's sake, that so they might find the truth, and be settled in it. For they may not faint, or give over thus doing for this: for necessary it is that these should come: these have been, and will be for the trial, who they be indeed, that thirst after the truth, and will cleave unto it. But in taking this contrary way, whatsoever you say, not we, but you lead men, and that with a strong hand to Atheism. And so much the more folly you show, in making these collections of yours of these controversies amongst us, seeing amongst yourselves i● were an easy matter, to put you in remembrance of a number as hot and fiercely followed contentions, as this yet ever was amongst us. Some thing to make this appear, I have noted Chapter the 4. but seeing you have never done with this objection, the better to make your vanity therein appear, let the reader further understand, that your Popes themselves amongst themselves one against another, have further proceeded in malicious contention, than ever the Lutherans, or protestāns did. For (as Platina writeth) when Pope long after him (for Boniface the 6. his immediate successor was Pope but 25. days) carried such hatred towards him and his proceed, that he caused his decrees to be abrogated, and (as other Historiographers writ of him) he caused him to be taken out of his grave, and solemnly to be in a council disgraded: which when he had done, therewith not content, he cut of his two fingers, that he used to consecrate withal, and cast them into the river Tiber. But Romanus the first succeeding him, ratified again Formosus doings, and abrogated and disannulled all Stephen's proceed against him. Whose course Theodorus the 2, and especially john the 10 followed, in justifying, and condemning Stephens doings against him in another council at Ravenna, consisting of seventy four bishops. Howbeit Sergius the 3. the 4 Pope after, taketh Stephen's part against Formosus, and that so hoatly, as that once again, though he were the ninth Pope from Formosus, he causeth his body to be taken up out of his grave, disgradeth him again, beheadeth him, cutteth of the 3 fingers that were left him of his right hand, and threw his body, and the pieces thereof despitefully into Tiber. About the year 1354 (as Godfridus de Fontanis writeth) there grew and burst out marvelous hot contentions betwixt the Friars of Dominicke and Francis in France, about their privileges, and the prelate's of France and the Scholars of Paris: insomuch that there were public and bitter Sermons made by one against another, & the one side excommunicated another. And Matth. Paris. reporteth, that there was by the prelate's of France, and the doctors of Paris, nine erroneous conclusions (which by his report were of matters of great weight in religion) laid to the charge of the Gray-friers, for the which they excommunicated them, and for which there was hot stir on both sides. About the year 1470. there was a notorious contention also betwixt the Dominicke friars, and the Minorites, the one side following Scotus, and the other Aquinas, whither Mary was conceived in original sin or no: the Minorites, with Scotus, holding the negative; and the other, with Aquinas, the affirmative: which in the year 1509 grew so great, that it troubled and divided all these Western parts of the world, notwithstanding that Pope Sixtus the 4, had given out his bull in the year 1576. on the Minorites side. Insomuch that some of the Dominicke friars were burned at Berne, for their devices to maintain their faction, as witnesseth both Pencer, and Munster. And who knoweth not of the 24. great schisms (at least) which have been in the Romish Church? during which times (some of them lasting very long) their Church was torn into so many factions, as there were Popes and antipopes. Amongst which factions and their heads, there grew sometimes wars indeed, and when they were quietest, railing processes and excommunications one of them against the other in most bitter manner (as the stories of those times do testify) were usual amongst them. But what should I run any further into this matter? Seeing it is a thing most certain, and whereof no man can be ignorant, that hath taken any pain in reading Stories, that the Church of Rome for all her brag of unity, these late years hath been so full of hot and fiery contentions, as that never a country, never an order, never a Cloister or Church amongst them, but it hath had most tumultuous contentions, at one time or other, both within themselves, and with others. And therefore, if this contention amongst us be cause sufficient of such conclusions, and dangerous consequents, as you set down in this chapter, what my all these be, which we know have been amongst you, and of like, whereunto we know, your Church is yet full? And that more is, certain it is, that howsoever confidently you writ, that there have been excommunications betwixt the Caluinists and the Lutherans, one against another about this matter (though with grief we must confess, that it may be, that both parts have exceeded their bounds but to far) you make here a greater show of it, than there is just cause. For whatsoever certain of the Lutherans (as you term them) have done in excommunicating the other, yet I think you can never prove, that Caluin, or any of his judgement in this point, have proceeded to far against any of them. But if they had, why should this seem so strange a thing unto you. For you know, I am sure, that Victor once bishop of Rome did excommunicate certain bishops in his time of the east Church, because they would not join with him and the west Church in the time of observing Easter. And that Stephanus another bishop of Rome went as far against Cyprian for his opinion of rebaptizing, you cannot be ignorant. Again you know, that there are but few of the Lutherans, that pursue this controversy so hoately (the greater part being contented to deal in it more brotherly, and quietly) and that the hottest of them also have been so thoroughly answered to all their objections, as that there beginneth to be greater hope of unity herein ere it be long, than you well like of, or then shall come to pass indeed if you can let it. But alas (though it hath been far more, especially of the one side, than any way can be justified) yet what hath been their bitterness and heat, of either side, at any time to be compared, with the ban and cursings, fightings and brawlings, murderings, mangling, and all barbarous extremities, that the malicious and spiteful heart of man can devise, that have been amongst your most holy fathers, the Popes of Rome themselves, and their favourers & followers at sundry times, and for many years together. Howsoever, as long as both parts agree in the fundamental points of Christian religion, and in the other most necessary and fruitful documents concerning this sacrament (as clearly appeareth by a book lately set forth of the Harmony of our confessions) and the controversy lieth only about the manner of the real presence, and eating with the mouth, which mouth-eating (as all sides confess) may be, and yet without fruit to the receiver, the benefit indeed arising by his presence only to the faith of the communicant: the matter is not of so great moment, & weight, as that either you should need to make such a do about, or that the maintainers thereof should need to strive so eagerly for. Which (I hope) God will in his good time reveal unto them, and so make them to give over their contention, and to grow into unity in this matter with their brethren. I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter, that you very greatly bely us, when you write; that we have given absolute sentence, that the catholic Church hath erred even from the Apostles times unto this present, in praying to God for the souls of those that are dead, constituted in a third place called Purgatory. For both your devices of Purgatory, and of praying to God for the relief of souls there, we say, and constantly defend to be but popish devices, found out and grounded but upon human reason, dreams and fond visions, and apparitions, and neither taught by the Apostles, nor any true pastor of the Church of Christ, for three hundred years at least after Christ. Tertullian was the first, and that in a book written by him when he was a Montanist, that makes any mention towards the allowance of prayer for the dead. And until the Florentine council, the greek Church could not be brought to join with you, in this doctrine of yours as you know well enough. And therefore it had been more for your credit and honesty, to have spared this your merry conceit, and pleasant devise of wishing us, though we refuse your Purgatory, to provide a third place for them, whom our contentions make constant on neither side. For either (if you had been wise) you would have uttered that your conceit with more truth in your first entrance into it, or else you would have let it alone for altogether.    


The XXIX. Chapter.  
IT doth appear well, by that that I have said, how the assurance of your vocation to the ministery is but founded upon sand, for as much as you do seek particularly a contrary meaning every one to his own particular sense, being not this the way that an extraordinary minister sent from God, should use to confirm his doctrine: for this hath been the custom of all old heretics, as I have already said. There is a very great difference between setting forth the Scripture to reform one's religion, and to reform one's conditions: for when there is any question of the reforming of one's manners, 
a Good stuff, by this divinity than men may by the warrant of the Apostle, take the scriptures in divers and sundry senses.  there is no need to regard, whether the doctrine be new or old: for (as the Apostle saith) let every man take it to his own sense: but when it is to be talked of, as touching one's faith, the Catholic ought greatly to beware of 
b And such be all they, whosoever made them, that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures: of wh●ch kind your popish interpretations be.  singular interpretations, and to hold them as very suspicious. 
c If this rule be received and followed, your popery will be found new devices, and will you nile you, you shall become all one with 〈◊〉  He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholic Church, without making any account of all these new devices: for even as, when one will repair an old house, he dares commit it to any mason, although his cunning be but small: but if the foundation must be touched, he will seek the best masters he can find. Even so, when one will correct me for my evil life or conditions, although that it be so, that he that seeks to reform me, be not of the wisest of the world, and that he allege to me some place or figure of the scripture, not altogether to the purpose, yet all this aught to turn to me to one effect: for I know his meaning, although he cannot well express it, the which is to have me change my naughty life, and to leave my ill conditions. 
d But all the pack of you shall never be able to prove ●opery to be thus grounded.  But when he shall come to touch my faith, and to persuade me from that, that all my ancetours did ever hold, from that, that the Catholic church derived from the Apostles hath holden and doth hold, and from that that both the Scripture, and the general Counsels, and all the ancient doctors teach and affirm: in the repair of this foundation I ought to trust none, but even the very best, I mean not one or two, but all these that I have named. And now, if you say, that they may all err, I pray, remember the old proverb, that saith: he is a fool that thinketh that he only is wise, and all the other fools, & that it is more agreeable to reason, that one only should err, than one great multitude: for as they say commonly, two eyes see more than one, and four more than two.   

The XXIX. Chapter.  
WHat you have gained by all you have hitherto written, to disprove either our vocation or Religion (for all your great brag here in the beginning of this Chapter) by weighing together your objections and my answers, now let the indifferent Reader judge, unto whom I doubt not (your brag notwithstanding) it shall and will well appear, that both may be builded upon the rock, for any thing you have yet said. The only new thing, that you set down in this Chapter, is this, that the former variety amongst them that allege scripture considered, you allow well, that one should listen to mean men, alleging scripture, though not very aptly, to reform manners withal. But when they are alleged to teach faith, than it is meet, that the Catholic man trust none, but the best, and those alleging them according to the general Counsels; and all ancient doctors. And therefore you writ, that the Catholic must take heed of singular interpretations, that he must follow the sentence held & taught by the ancient Catholic Church, & not suffer himself to be persuaded from that faith, that all his ancetours did ever hold, the Catholic Church hath ever held, the Scriptures, general Counsels, and all the ancient doctors do teach. In which case, if one should take upon him to be wiser than all these, you would have him (according to the proverb) accounted a fool, that thinketh himself only wise, and all others fools, because in reason it is more likely, that one should err, than all these etc. Be it that all this were very true, what have you won hereby against us? For neither shall you ever be able to prove (as we have often told you) that your religion is that ancient Catholic religion, nor your Church to be the ancient catholic Church, nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures, general counsels, or fathers, as you herein take it for granted, on your side. For in truth you have none of these on your sides: but the only grounds of your religion are your own private and singular interpretations, & traditions of men, without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed sound understood, or from general Counsels, or ancient fathers, that are worthy to be of credit in God's Church. For (as we have made appear in infinite discourses against you) all these are far more strong on our side, then with you. And therefore you rather are the fools, that seem wiser, them all these in your own conceit, and so labour to draw us from the ancient catholic faith and Christ's true Church, by your corrupt glosses, & allegations of these, & by your vain & uncertain traditions of mortal men. Whereof let the reader take for a taste these few proofs, amongst infinite others used by us. The Scripture with us teacheth justification freely by faith in Christ without works: Rom. 3.24.25. Ephes. 2.8.9. and you condemn them as heretics, that teach so. The scriptures with us teach, that Christ's offering himself once for all, hath made perfect all them that are sanctified. Heb. 10.14. and you contrarily teach, that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your mass, & by a number of other things done by themselves, and others for them. The Scriptures with us teach, that Christ is ascended into heaven, Coloss. 3.1. Act. 1.9. etc. and that the heavens must contain him, until the restitution of all things, Act. 3.21. and you contrarily will have him, as oft as you consecrate, to come down, to hide himself under the forms of bread and wine. The scriptures with us say, concerning the cup in the Sacrament, to all Christians rightly prepared, Drink ye all of this, Matth. 26.22. and you say, it is heresy to hold, that the lay people must drink thereof. To proceed a little further, the same Scripture in the 2. Commandment Exod. 20.4. forbiddeth (as we do) both the making and worshipping of Images, to represent God the father, the son, or the holy Ghost withal; and you allow both these. The scriptures prefer (as we do) the speaking of five words in the Church that may be understood, before ten thousand in a tongue not understood: 1. Cor. 14.19. and your Church (as it appeareth in having all your service in lat in) preferreth five words spoken there i● an unknown tongue before ten thousand, spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification. Lastly, the Scriptures (as we do) account marriage honourable among all men in all estates, and the marriage bed undefiled: Heb. 13.4. insomuch, that they advouch the forbidding of it (though under pretence of holiness) to be a doctrine of Devils. 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3. & yet you condemn it in your priests, as a filthy life. In like manner is there a plain contrariety betwixt your religion, and the decrees of ancient and general counsels. In my answer to your 17. Chapter, I have showed you already, that the ancient, famous, first general Council of Nice, in the 6. Canon thereof, is directly against that pre-eminence that now you give to the Bishop of Rome, over all Churches. There also you have heard the council of Gangra pronounce you accursed, for your doctrine against the marriage of ministers. I have also showed you before, that the 6. general council holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree, hath flatly determined against the principal article of your religion, your Pope's supremacy, in determining that the Bishop there should have equal privileges, with your Pope or Bishop of Rome. The counsels also of Constance and Basil against your received opinion now, preferred the authority of a general Council before the authority of your Pope. And certain it is, that in the time of Charles the great, there was a council called at Franckeforde, whereat the Bishops of France, Germany & Italy were assembled, about the year (as Regin writeth in his 2 book) 794, where the making and worshipping of Images, allowed of by the false Synod of the Greeks (as he termeth it) was condemned. And Hickma●e Archbishop of Rheames, writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 (Chap. 20.) somewhat about these times, calleth this a general council, called by the will & commandment of the Pope, & Emperor Charles; & witnesseth, that not only there the false Synod of the Greeks, that made for Images was confuted & rejected, but also a great book made thereof then sent to Rome. As for fathers, and ancient doctors, I have plentifully showed to be against you already for the sufficiency & authority of the Scriptures, Chap. 3. & 5. against your real presence, Chap. 11. & against your doctrine of justification, & other points of your religion, Chap. 16. And it were as easy a matter to show them so to be against you, & with us, in almost all the rest of the points in controversy betwixt us. At least this most confidently I do avouch, that for 600. years you shall never prove them all nor half to be on your side, in the third part of the questions betwixt you and us: and therefore you do but too shamefully deceive the simple people in this case, with a show & brag of that, with you are of all other furthest from.    


The XXX. Chapter.  
Our Saviour Christ did approve his vocation after another sort, than you do yours. 
a But in another place you know he saith, that the word that he had spoken, should judge them at the last day. john 12.  Search (saith 
* joh. 5.  he) the scriptures, for they hear witness of me: he doth not say, that they are judges, as you say, for you will have none other arbitrator but the word of God. You know, that they are two different things, to bear witness, and to be a judge, and yet the scriptures of the old Testament do contain, not only the verity of the doctrine of our Saviour Christ, but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person, to teach us the true word of God, & to overthrow & destroy the whole kingdom of Satan, as it is plainly seen by those that list to look upon the oracles of the old patriarchs & Prophets. It is written in the third of Gen. that God said unto the woman, that her seed should break down the serpent's head. And likewise in the said 
* Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22. & 24.  book there is mention made of this divine seed of Abraham: & in the 15. & 53. Chapters of Esay, & in the 2. Psalm, David doth talk of it. And in like manner Daniel, Moses & Aaron, withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices have very perfectly painted the coming & passion of our Saviour. Moses left written in the prophecy of jacob, that the Messiah should come, when the royal sceptre and the administration of it should be taken from the line of juda. Daniel was not content to say as the rest, that he should come, 
b There is no reason in the world, why you should count from that year, for neither daniel's words will bear it, neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christ's death: for that was about the year of the world 3354, and he suff●ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth. Neither is there any mention in Dan: of 72. weeks, but of 70, & of numbers whereinto he divideth that. Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetic or wits, were very slender to reckon 72. weeke●, that is so ma●y times 7. years, to be just five hundred, when as if you account again, you shall find, that your number is not so just by 4. as you would seen, for 72. times 7. makes 504. A sha●efull learned man sure you have showed yourself here.  but he did assign the very time, that is to say, by the seventy two weeks, counting from the fourth year of the reign of Zedechias, until the time that our Saviour was na●●ed upon the Cross, the which time was just 5. hundred years. Then, seeing that Christ came at the very prescribed time, he might well have said unto the jews, that the Scriptures did bear witness of him. But yet to say the truth, if he had done no other but this, he had not fully approved his vocation, to condemn their incredulity. For they might have said unto him: we know well, that by the saying of the old prophets the Messiah should come of the line of jacob, about this time, forasmuch as the sceptre of this kingdom is taken from the line of juda, to be delivered unto Herod: But what though, is this a good consequence: 
a But now that t●is point is sufficiently confirmed already, & so also all the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles, therefore now to refuse to believe the ordinary ministers of the Church, unless they prove the same again by miracles, which is your dea●ing with us, is an evident sign of unbelief.  the Messia● ought to come about this time, therefore it is I? No, no, show us your commission, let us see some signs, how we shall know it: for if we should receive you as our king, it may be, that some other would come and crave the like, saying, that we were abused Our Saviour Christ sore fearing this objection, to●ke another witness with him besides the scripture, I mean his miracles. The works that I do (saith 
* John. 5.  Christ) in the name of my father, bear witness of me. The like proof is made, when S. joh. 
* Mat. 11.  Baptist sent his disciples to our Saviour, to have him teach the true belief, that they should have in him: this question was put to him, art thou he that should come, or ought we to attend for some other? Go your ways (said Christ) and tell john what ye have heard and seen, The blind receive their sight, the lame do walk upright, the dumb speak, the deaf hear, the lepers are cured, the dead are raised again, and the poor are preached unto: the which is as much to say, as, tell john, that I am the true Messiah, & that he ought to attend ●● other. I do verify my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles. For first Esay doth write, that when the Messiah should come, he should do the Miracles above mentioned. Then, seeing that I have done them in your presence, it followeth, that I am he that should come. Thus you see Sirs, that both the 
b And by the same scriptures, and by the same Miracles, we justify our vocation and religion: what will you have more?  Scripture and Miracles were necessary for the confirmation of the coming of Christ among the jews, who were never harder of belief than we are, according to your opinion: and therefore blame us not, if we send you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures, 
c But they do. 2. Thess. 2. & Apoc. 14. vers. 8.6. and 7.  the which do neither bear witness of your coming, nor yet do any miracles, the which two things and more, are necessary to make us believe your reformed Gospel.   

The XXX. Chapter.  
THe drift of this Chapter is to prove, that Christ did not only warrant his vocation & doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures, but also by miracles: which I grant you prove sufficiently. Whereupon you would conclude, that we accounting you as hard of belief, as ever were the jews, therefore we should prove our calling and religion unto you by both: whereas (if it be true, that you say) we can do neither, and so are to be sent packing like coggers only of the Scriptures. Wither the Scriptures give testimony unto our religion or no. I refer to the reader to judge by that which I have written already, & by that we have written from time to time in our books made in the defence of our religion. And concerning our vocation and calling, I trust, I have sufficiently confirmed that, by them also, in that I have showed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time. But if further you require a more special testimony from thence of our coming by our calling, I send you now to 2. Thess. 2.8. and revel. 14.6. etc. where it is prophesied, that God would towards the later end send his messengers again to consume Antichrist, and by preaching the everlasting Gospel, to overthrow Babylon. And as touching miracles, you have been answered sufficiently already: but that you complain not, that we refuse to answer you, as long as you can object any thing: to this now alleged I say, that you must understand, that it was necessary for Christ, to confirm his calling by miracles, because it is true (as you allege out of Esay) that it was prophesied, that the Messiah should work miracles, when he came: & so also it was necessary once to establish and confirm the particular doctrine of his person, the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law, and other such new & strange things, as the coming of the Messiah brought with it, both to jew and Gentile: which reasons you cannot show, why we should work miracles now, to confirm our vocation or religion by to you. For neither was it prophesied, that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption, or the whore of Babylon to her fall, by working of miracles, but (as you have heard) by the spirit of God's mouth, breathing in his everlasting gospel: the force whereof, in our ministry, you perceive daily to be such, that it is even a miracle and wonder unto you, to see in how short time it hath prevailed, and prevaileth still against your kingdom, do you what you can to let it: neither need those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles (which are the only things that we teach) to be for your sakes confirmed again, though you be never so hard hearted. The word written, and the miracles therein recorded already, must serve the turn, to convert you to our religion therein taught, and thereby sufficiently ratified, or else (gibe at it howsoever here) you shall one day, to your smart (I fear) find yourselves to be without all excuse.  
One trick of your learning yet I may not forget, which you have in the beginning of this Chapter; which is this, that alleging this saying of Christ, Search the Scriptures, for they are they that testify of me, you note, that he said not, they are judges, but they bearewitnes of me, which you tell us, are two different things. This was by the way to give us a blow, that would have no other judge, but the word of God. And to what end, would you have the Scriptures, but to stand at the bar, as witnesses? Truly that your Pope, and your Church might sit on the bench, as judges, to give sentence, as it pleased them, whatsoever the witnesses depose. But what little reason there is therein, nay, what blasphemy that savoureth of, you & every man may learn by the certain & infallible truth always witnessed unto us by the one, & of the manifold errors, judged and practised by the other. It is worthy the marking, to see how still it grieveth you, that the Scriptures, or certain word of God should sit above your Popes & you, to check & control your doings: and how feign you would bring them under, to be judged & overruled by you. But to answer this your objection, you must be put in remembrance, that there is not such a difference betwixt a judge, and a witness, but one & selfsame man may be both a witness & a judge: & that if there be such a force in this word witness, here to drive the Scriptures to the bar to stand but amongst witnesses, there is as great, force in the word judge, in another place to bring them to the bench again, to sit as judge. Remember yourself therefore, that the same Christ, that said here, that the Scripture bear witness of him, said (joh. 12.48.) to such as you are, He that refuseth me & receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken shall judge him at the last day. And never disdain you, that the scriptures, that bare witness to Christ, sit as judges over you and your doings: if you do, the will not serve your turn. For Christ hath told you, what you shall trust to, if you will not stand to their judgement here, you shall one day (will you, nile you) be judged by them to your smart elsewhere. Wherefore howsoever in the end of your former Chap. you count him a fool & to be rejected, that counseleth you to leave that which you take to be the catholic faith, confirmed by the ancient Doctors, & general counsels: if he bring scripture indeed on his side, you will prove most fool, if you believe him not. This your Gerson saw, & therefore he hath written, that there is more credit to be given to one man learned in the Scriptures, and having thenof his side, then either to the Pope's sentence, or to the decrees of a general council. And your Abbot Panormitan ad Canonen, Titulo, de Electionibus hath the like saying. But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors, to join with us in our religion, we do not persuade you from that, but to that indeed, which our ancestors, whom we may safely follow, the patriarchs, Prophets, Christ, & his Apostles hath taught us: and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors, & lawful Synods, and counsels ever since unto this day taught us. This we are sure is true. For we find ourselves able by the Scriptures, the sound monuments of antiquity, & the Chronicles of all times, & ages to prove, and justify it to be so, against all gainsayers. And therefore I would wish you, for fear of the sentence of this judge, the scriptures (though you labour never so much to bereave them of that office of a judge amongst you) that neither lack of miracles working by us, nor the glorious dumb shows of catholic faith, Catholic Church, ancient fathers, and counsels etc. hold you any longer from joining hands with us. For to pretend all these never so much, will no more excuse you from falling under the sentence of this judge, than the like did your predecessors, the high priests, Scribes and Pharisees in Christ's time: who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments, kept themselves back from yielding unto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles, to their utter destruction. The Lord of his infinite mercies, open your eyes in time, and give you once grace in simplicity of heart, to search for the truth of religion in his written word, and to leave deceiving of yourselves & others, with these sounding and swelling words of vanity Amen. Your childish and gross oversight & ignorance by the way showed about daniel's 70. weeks in this Chapter is most pitiful. For whereas he speaks but of 70, you say he did speak of 72, & those you count to contain less years by 4. then they do, and contrary to all truth of story, & the express words of the Angel, Chapter 9 set down by the Prophet, you appoint them their beginning before the Captivity, whereas they must of necessity begin after.    


The XXXI. Chapter.  
YOu 
a But not alone fo● especially we comfort ourselves in the goodness of the cause.  do allege the invincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past, for at this present, if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more souls with your false preaching, then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine, your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is. You glory in your Martyrs of times past, which have sealed with their own blood the doctrine of that holy City Geneva. But in this ye are much deceived, for S. john Chrysostome in his first oration against the jews doth say, that the pain doth not make the Martyr, but the cause: for otherwise the thieves & murderers might claim the like title, although they suffer for another cause: for we honour and love the martyrs (saith he) not for the torments that they do suffer, but for that it is for Christ, & that they suffer for justice. 
b There is no such thing there, turn the place who list, yet I de●● not, but in some other place he may write so, but no where against such as we, but rather against such as commonly your fellows be here in England, who dying for t e●s●n, yet you will canonize for holy Martyrs.  And S. Augustine in his first book contra Epistolam Parmeni●ni, Cap. septimo, writing against some of your fellows that presumed to be Martyrs, he doth say, that every one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperor, or by the king for matters of Religion, otherwise (saith he) the Devils might attribute unto themselves the glory of martyrdom, because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperors hands, when throughout the world, their Idols were pulled down, and they cast out, and those that did offer sacrifice unto them grievously punished: then (saith he) the justice is not certain through the passion, or for having suffered death: but the death and passion is glorious, when it is for the sustaining of the true faith. And therefore (saith he) our saviour, because he would not have the simple deceived under this colour of truth, he did not only say: blessed are those that suffer (but he added) for justice. But this can in no wise be attributed unto those heretics that suffer, to separate the union and concord of the Catholic church. 
c In that book it appears, these Donatists did indeed complain and yet brag of their persecutions but thus much I find not there testified against them, or of them. In his book de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum he writeth to this effect of them.  And in his book de unitate Ecclesiae, contra Epistolam Petiliani, he doth write, that the Donatists, which were a sect of heretics that reigned in his time, to confirm their doctrine, they did not attend, that others should put them to death, but they did cast themselves down from high places: others did burn themselves in the fire, to be honoured after their death as Martyrs: and that is more, they did threaten men, if they would not kill them. 
d He writes in that epistle no such thing, you had the worst luck in quoting of your testimonies that ever had a●y, for 3. for one you cite wr●ng.  S. Cyprian in like manner doth write in the first book of his Epistles, in the first Epistle, that though an heretic suffer death for Christ, that doth not confirm him as a Martyr, but that his death is the very punishment of his errors, and that he cannot go to heaven, which is the mansion of the humble: for seeing that he doth separate himself from the house of peace, which is the church (ye know well of what church he doth speak) that he cannot be received into heaven, etc. All those that have written the histories of the Bohemians do say, that in the time of 
e Zisch● was a famous soldier & captain, but minister he was none.  one Zischa a martial minister of the heresy of the Heborits, or Hussites, there were a certain sect of heretics called Adamites like unto the old heresy of the Nicholaites: for they did say, as these do, that men's wives should be common, and they went all naked, every one taking the woman he liked best, whom he did carry unto their minister, and before him he did say, the holy ghost doth inspire me to lie with this person: then the said reverent father did give him his blessing: saying, Increase and multiply, and so they went away. This above named Zischa, although he had done a number of wicked deeds, yet he determined to abolish and take away this sect, 
f And therefore popish traitors that are executed amongst v● for high treason, though they seem to take their death never so patiently, we lawfully coū● & call traitors, though you canonize them for Saints.  and so he caused two women to be burnt for this abomination, the which two (notwithstanding the torment of the fire) did sing and give thanks to God, for that it had pleased him, to permit them to die for so holy & so just a quarrel. Did not Michael servet, who was once master Caluins' darling, rather desire to suffer at Geneva, than he would confess, that Christ was God? and yet notwithstanding his great patience (or to say the truth, devilish obstinacy) cannot be sufficient to make him a Martyr, nor to persuade you, to believe his doctrine. 
g What need all these seeing none of us ever stand upon the bare sufferings of men, no more than you? you should yet have named the places, where these things are written, and not thus have sent us to seek we cannot tell where.  There is a certain minister of the Lutherans called joachim Westphall, who in a work of his doth mock at Caluin, who did vaunt, that within these five years above an hundred had suffered death, to sustain the Gospel of Geneva: and he doth answer him at large, proving that the sect and doctrine of the said place, ought not to be approved for the multitude of false martyrs: for the Anabaptists whom he doth justly condenne, have had of their sect a great many more, for in less than three years there have suffered a great number more than ever there did suffer of Caluinists in fifteen. And to conclude this matter, the said Westphal doth say, that the devil hath his Martyrs (even as well as God) with whom like a good sergeant he doth march giving the vauntward unto the martyrs of the Caluinists, that have suffered at Geneva. 
h The more to blame are they if they should say so, but though heat of contention caused Westphalus to write so bitterly, I think very few will join with him in this judgement: sure I am they whom you call Caluinists do not judge so of them, because of that 1. Co. ●. v. 15  So that if one demand of the Lutherans, whither go those that die in the Religion of Caluin, of Beza, or of the Anabaptists? they say, to the Devil. And if one demand of the Caluinists in like manner, whither go the Anabaptists and the Lutherans? they say likewise, to the Devil. And who would put the like question to the Anabaptists, I am assured they would say at the others, to the Devil. For my part I believe you, I assure you, all three. 
i This argueth a most devilish and profane spirit in the writer.  And seeing that ye agree so well, that one serve for an others harbinger, we were very fools, if we should stay your passage, but let you go all to the Devil for company, for I think if you were all gone, our debates would cease, and hell would be so full, that the devil would long for no more.   

The XXXI. Chapter.  
YOu need not to tell us, that Augustine and Chrysostome have taught, that it is not the death, but the cause, that maketh a martyr. For we know that to be a most certain truth, and the general doctrine of all good writers both old and new: and therefore you might have spared your pains bestowed in the proof of this. And therefore most willingly we acknowledge (as Christ hath taught us) that only they are blessed martyrs, that suffer for righteousness sake. Mat. 5. and none to be martyrs, how patiently soever they seem to suffer their deaths, that by for an ill cause, either in life or doctrine. And yet we are not ignorant, that many have died in lewd, and for lewd opinions, who yet have seemed to die willingly and cheerfully: and therefore we deny not, but that it may be true, that some such wicked women of that beastly heresy of the Adamites, were put to death in Zischaes time, in Bohemia, & died, as you writ: and that it is possible, that such filthy heretics, as servetus was, may show themselves stout in dying. But what is all this to prove, that our martyrs have broken the union of the Catholic Church, or that they died as heretics for heresy? Before you can say any thing to the purpose, either to prove them no true martyrs, or to blemish their patience, you should have proved, that their cause and religion, for which they died, was not the sound Christian truth and faith: but that you will never be able to do. And therefore both all this, and what else you have noted (though falsely, for there is no such thing, in either of these two places) out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani, of the Donatists forwardness to die, and out of Cyprians first book of Epistles, falleth down to the ground as needles besides the question. For whatsoever they there spoke, they spoke it of heretics, & therefore it hath no force against us, until you can prove us so; in alleging Cyprians testimony by the way of parenthesis, you say, we know of what Church he spoke, when he said, the heretics that he wrote of, could not be saved, because they separated themselves from the Church, the house of peace. Indeed we know, that he meant not your Church, which is a bloody house, a house of war, & contention: a house of error, & superstition, but the Church of Christ that was in his time, to with yours is not so like, as a drunken man is to a sober & discreet man: or a whore unto an honest matron: for there is likelihood in substance, though not in quality, & yours is unlike to the Church then in both. Zischa you call a martial minister of the Heborites, or Hussites: you would say, or (at least I am sure) you should say, a noble martial Captain: for minister he was none of them, whom their malicious enemies nickenamed Thaborites, or Hussites: for so they were called, & not as you call them. At your pleasure you call Michael servet, Caluins' darling, but you cannot prove, that he was ever in any such account with Caluin, why you should term him so. But yet if he had been so, thorough his cunning in dissembling his heresy for a time, the more commendation was it to Caluin, that when he proved an obstinate heretic, he was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God, that all former affection set a part, he furthered his due punishment, as he did. And for all your speech, of his willingness to die at Geneva, and great patience in dying, I cannot read, but that he shunned death there, as much as he could, keeping or holding still his heresy, and that thousands have died on the gallows for murder, felony, and treason, with as great show of courage and patience, as he. But to let these things pass, and to return again to your principal drift in this, which was (as you show in the beginning of it) to prove, that neither our vocation, nor religion could get any credit by the invincible patience of our holy martyrs; what hath been said as yet to prove this? Your only argument hitherto hath been this, The cause, that a man dieth for, must be good: and he must be no heretic: many heretics have died with great show of patience: Ergo etc. This argument is stark nought: for all these things in your antecedent may be granted, and yet of all them together your conclusion followeth not. These things which are not at all in question you have proved; but this that indeed should have given life to your argument, that ours died in, and for an ill cause, & were heretics (which is indeed the thing only in question) like a wise man (because you could not prove it) you let alone. But therefore you shall be contented (for all your miserable craving of it to be granted you) to be denied both it and your conclusion, which, without it you can never come unto. You will therefore prove (as you make your reader believe) that our Martyrs were such, as died in an ill cause as heretics, and therefore went to hell. But what be your proofs? joachim Westphalus a Lutheran, in a work of his (but it seemeth either you could not, or would not tell us in what work, for some politic reason you had doubtless) mocked at Caluin, for vaunting (but where he made this vaunt, or where we may find it, you tell us not) that within five years above an hundred had died for the religion of Geneva, proving unto him, that seeing there had been far more of the anabaptists put to death in less space, and that the Devil had his Martyrs: his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs: but they might for all his brag, be in the vanguard of the devils martyrs. What a miserable argument is this? A contentious man in the heat of his contention said thus to disgrace his adversary and his side, therefore thereupon it shall follow, that it was well and truly said of him. I think you will grant me, that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both, yet in heat of contention one against another, Epiphanius burst out into such choler, as he said, that he hoped the other should never die bishop: to whom Chrysostone answered as angrily again, that he trusted the other should never return alive into his own country of Cypress: & infinite be the examples, whereby we may see, that men otherwise have in heat of contention marvelously overshot themselves one against another. And therefore God forbidden, that upon every speech of disgrace uttered in such a case by one against another, should by and by a firm argument be gathered, that it is even so, as the one hath said of the other.  
But you will say, you stand not so much upon his speech against Caluins' Martyrs, as upon that, that there were more of the Anabaptists, that had died in a shorter space, than he talked of, and that otherwise, the devil hath had his martyrs, which we cannot deny. Hereupon indeed it followeth, that an argument drawn to justify an opinion, and the followers of it, from the bare death, and show of patience of them that hold it, is not good: but so did never any of us reason. For first we labour to prove, the cause good, and that done, then in the patience of such, as have died in so good cause, together with the cause, we take comfort. And yet in truth, we are sure, we may speak it to the glory of God, there were never either so many, or any, that so patiently died for any other opinion, or opinions whatsoever, as first and last died for the testimony of our religion. For we account all them ours, that have from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospel of jesus Christ, and in that we are able by the Scriptures, to prove our religion to be the same, we are sure, we are not deceived in our account. In the conclusion of this Chapter, to show yourself to be not only one that dare write any thing how gross a lie soever it be, but as malicious in your judgement, as ever was any. First, you set down, not only, that the Anabaptists condemn them that die in Luther, & Caluins' religion to hell (which is likely enough, because they were frantic heretics, & have denied the foundation) but also the Lutherans and Caluinists will & do give that judgement one of another: and yet I am sure, you are not able truly to say, that ever any of Caluins' judgement said, or wrote so. Secondly, though your own judgement be short, yet so it is set down, that you show that you believe that all the three sorts go thither? And such care & compassion your catholic heart had of it, when you had done, that you jest at it, accounting yourselves fools, if you should stay their passage thither. For if we were all gone for company, you think you should be at quiet (you say) & hell would be so full, that the devil would long for no more company. Is this your popish divinity, to make sport at the damnation of men? And hold you this for a principle, that it is folly to stay men from running together to hell? Indeed it may be. For I have read, that it is a rule amongst you, that, if your Pope lead headlong with him multitudes by heaps to hell, yet no man may be so hardy, as to say unto him, why dost thou so? Distinct. 40. Cap. Si Papa: But howsoever you account this divinity, certain I am, you will find it, that in no two things more, the devils show themselves devils, then in these, In laughing and rejoicing in the damnation of the souls of men; and in letting them go freely for company to hell, without stoppage, as many as will. Truly, truly, God must take from you this profane and devilish spirit of yours, and give you grace to repent of it, or else you may be sure, how many soever die and go to hell before you, hell will long for you, and you shall find place, and room enough there, I warrant you.    


The XXXII. Chapter.  
THere is a certain minister of the Lutherans called 
a What will not a passionate adversary say, to disgrace them that he writes against? If like testimonies of men of your Religion, writing yet, in some points one against another, will be admitted, it is an easy matter thus to discredit your whole faction.  Heshusius, the which within these three years hath made a book against Caluin, Peter Boquin, Theodore de Beza, & Gulielmus Elcimalcius: & he saith amongst other things, that Carolstadius, Zuenfeldius, Caluin, & Beza do show well the uncertainty of their faith, by the diversities of opinions that there is amongst them, the which fault (saith he) doth proceed of this, that they have forsaken the true sense of the scripture, to follow the opinions of their own heads. 
b And yet in truth lieth therein himself.  And in that very book the said author doth give the lie to Caluin, because that in that he wrote against the above named Westphal, he saith that Martin Luther and his adherents, did acknowledge him as their brother, the which thing he maintains to be false. 
c Greater & more disagreement● there are amongst you papists, and therefore these conclusions press you rather than us.  Thus seeing ye agree together like dogs and cats, & that all these sects have confirmed their false doctrine with the shedding of their own blood, it is best to conclude, as we have said before, that it is not the pain nor the torment that doth make the righteous martyr, except we should say, that diverse contrary messengers are sent from one master, the which is notoriously false, for that good king from whom the truth doth come indeed, hath so good a memory, that he doth never send contrary messengers, but rather his faithful servants do all with one voice, and one accord honour him, as the father of our saviour jesus Christ.   

The XXXII. Chapter.  
HEre again (as in the former Chapter) you labour to discredit Caluin, Beza, and others only with the testimony of Heshusius an utter enemy of theirs, about the quarrel of the controversy of the Sacrament, whom heat of contention, and a desire therefore to disgrace his adversaries, rather than just cause, led thus to write. For what reason had he there to join Zuenfeldius with Caluin and Beza, with whom they held no more communion and fellowship, than he himself, and Corolstadius, who was a doctor in Wittenberg in Luther's time, and an associate to him in disputation against Ecchius, he might with more reason have joined with Luther himself, and his partners, then with these. And howsoever the intemperate heat of contention emboldened Heshusius, to give Caluin the lie, most certain yet it is, that Melancthon a great friend of Luther's, whom Heshusius cannot deny was an adherent of Luther, accounted of Caluin, as of a good brother. For in an Epistle which he wrote to him, he calleth him Charissim●. fratrem, most dear brother (it is the 187. Epistle in the book of Caluins' Epistles.) And I am persuaded, that what Caluin wrote, he was able to justify in this behalf, how rudely soever angry Heshusius gave him the lie. This objection of our disagreement hath been oft enough urged and answered already. It seemeth, that you have great penury of arguments against us, when this must come in thus often, especially seeing (as I have showed) greater contentions have been amongst yourselves. In which cases would you have thought a man should have dealt well with you, if the bitter speeches of the one side, had always been taken as sufficient arguments to disgrace the other? Or would you have liked, that thereupon a man should infer (as you do) that you agreed no better, than dogs, and cats? and that therefore you so differing amongst yourselves came not both from one master, God, who useth not to send contrary messengers: this had been an hard conclusion against a number of you in the time of your schisms betwixt your Popes, and Antipopes; and in the times of the contentions of your Friars with your other Prelates, and also amongst themselves; whereof I have put you in remembrance before, Chapter twenty eight. And yet if you will needs meat this measure unto us, upon occasion of this one controversy about the manner of Christ's real presence, you must be contented, that upon more and greater contentions, amongst you, we send you home as good measure again. As for your conclusion, that it is not the pain, but the cause, that maketh a true martyr, we granted it you at the first: but where to make way, to bring it in here again you insinuate, not only that the Donatists, Adamites, servetus, and the anabaptists (of whom you have spoken in your former Chapter) have died to confirm their false Religion (which we grant you) but that these also, that you spoke of last, Lutherans and Zuenfeldians have done so likewise; therein your fault is double. For first in so saying you term the Religion, for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died, false, which you shall never be able to prove so to be: and secondly in so saying you would seem, to make your Reader believe, that amongst those, whom you call Lutherans, some have died even for the confirmation of their singular opinion, wherein they differ from their brethren, whom you call Caluinists; and that so some have died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities, which is more also, than you can prove, I am fully persuaded.    


The XXXIII. Chapter.  
SOme of your godly sect (to 
a If you had meant to deal plainly, you should have named the man & the place where any of us do thus childishly reason.  verify that the vocation of your ministry doth come of God) do set before our eyes the holiness of those new Christians, that is to say, how they never swear, but yea for yea, and no for no, that they do no wrong to no man, that they do neither rob nor steal, but that they are content with that that God hath sent them, & that they are very charitable to the poor: then seeing that our saviour doth say, that one shall know the tree by the fruit, 
b indeed we may truly say, howsoever some that profess our religion, either through the common frailty of man or hypocrisy, have too too little of this fruit growing of them, that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion, they should bear this sweet & pleasant fruit abundantly.  we ought to confess (say they) that the tree being good, the fruit is good: that is to say, their Religion is good, seeing that, by the grace of God, it doth produce such sweet & pleasant fruit. I answer you first to this, that our saviour doth not ever give general rules, but that that most commonly doth happen, as when he saith, that 
* Luc 6.  of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh, would you affirm by this, that his meaning was universally? God forbidden, that he that is the author of all truth should mean so stark a lie. Do you not remember what speech he did use to the Pharisees, when he said, 
* Mat. 15.  this people do honour me with their mouths, but their hearts are far from me? you see that this sentence is contrary to the other, if you do not understand it as I have said, that is to say, that many times a man doth utter that, that is in his heart: as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talk of quarrels, a proud person to talk of haughty enterprises, a covetous man to talk of riches or gains, and so it is of all other sins. But with all this a man may not affirm truly, that hypocrisy doth never reign in their hearts, whose mouths are full of God's word. 
* Dan. 19  The judges of S. Susan, had not they God and his laws in their mouths, and the Devil in their hearts? 
* John. 18.  We have a law (said the jews and Pharisees against Christ) and according to this law given us by Moses, he ought to die. The zeal of justice did sound in their mouths, and hateful envy did dwell in their hearts. And therefore you see many times, that man doth speak contrary to that that he thinketh, and even so it is of the sentence of our Saviour, when he saith, that by the fruit one shall know the tree. For many times naturally the fruit is good, although the tree be worth nothing, 
c The heathen Philosopher's lives, howsoever they carried a show of the matter of holiness, they cannot be said to be holy & good indeed because their works were without faith, & lacked the form of good works.  as the famous lives and works of diverse heathen Philosophers do witness, of whom the holiness and scrupulosity of conscience was such, that I do believe assuredly that at the day of judgement, a great number of Christians which lead paynim lives, will be confounded with the example of those men that knew not God. Thus of the first, the fruit is good, but the trees are worth nothing, for their Religion was false & Idolatrous, applying, as S. 
* Rom. 1.  Paul doth say, the truth of God to unrighteousness. And as for the second, the trees are good, being grafted upon the true Catholic Religion, but the fruits do degenerate from the stock.   

The XXXIII. Chapter.  
IN this Chapter you say, that some of us have gone about to justify, that our vocation is of God, by the holiness of life found amongst us, because Christ hath said, The tree is known by his fruit: and the good tree bringeth forth good fruit. Mat. 7.17. Howsoever thus you would persuade your reader, that we are driven to use these kind of arguments, taken from the show of patience in our Martyrs, and the goodness of the lives of the professors of our religion, the truth is, though sometime the goodness of their cause considered, we take comfort in their patience, and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembered, in some sort we rejoice thereof also, yet never did we build the credit of our vocation or religion upon either of these. For we know, there may be & hath been great show of patience in such as have died for heresy: and that religion is not to be judged either by the badness or show of goodness in the lives of them that profess it. For both amongst the professors of sound Religion, we know there hath always been, are, and will be some lewd livers: and also amongst those of a false Religion, thorough the force of hypocrisy and superstition, there hath been found, and may be still, a marvelous great outward show of holiness and piety. And therefore do we always teach our hearers, & readers, to learn to discern the true Religion from the false, by searching the Scriptures, and not by view of these things which therein may deceive them. Wherefore you might very well have eased both your reader, & yourself of all the pains you have taken about this matter in these four next Chapters. Howbeit, seeing you could afford so much needless pains, to disgrace what you could, the profession of the truth, I will be contented to take so much pains, as to weigh what you have said, and give you such answer, as you deserve, for the maintenance of the credit thereof. In this Chapter first you would prove, by conference of this foresaid rule of Christ, with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, that it is no more general than that. For after out of Math. 15. and other places you have showed, that notwithstanding that saying of Christ, man oftentimes speaketh otherwise, than it is in his heart: you conclude, even so is it many times, naturally the fruit is good, when the tree is nought, as in the good lives of many heathen philosophers: and contrarily, the trees may be good, as graft upon the true Catholic Religion, and yet the fruits degenerate from the stock. Be it granted, that Christ's meaning was no more generally to be taken in the one, then in the other, and that it followeth thereupon, that even as sometime a man through hypocrisy may speak well and think ill, so a good tree may sometimes by some occasion have some fruit not answering the goodness thereof, intermingled with the good, yet you shall never be able to prove, but that Christ's speech here is so generally true, as that always a good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and a bad tree bad fruit: as always it is true, that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh at one time or other, though at sometimes also and in some things the mouth be bridled. For Christ doth not deny, but that even of a good tree there may be found here and there a rotten apple, a worm-eaten one, or otherwise not answerable to the natural fruit of that tree. For he knew, what imperfections there were, and would be always found in the best men: neither doth he that said, Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, say it would always be so. For he knew, how through hypocrisy oftentimes the abundance of filthy matter lying in the heart would be dissembled. It is sufficient for the verifying of these two proverbs generally in that sense, that Christ meant them, that the good tree naturally bringeth forth good fruit, and the bad, bad fruit: and that the abundance of the heart will make the mouth at sometimes bewray that, which lieth in the heart, let otherwise hypocrisy do what it can. And therefore you conclude more, than your premises will bear. For though it be granted you, that the one proverb hath some limitations as well as the other, yet it must be only in manner, as I have said. Whereupon will never more follow, that an ill tree may have sometimes naturally good fruit growing upon it, and a good tree, bad fruit: than it will ever be found false, that at one time or other out of the abundance of the heart every mouth will speak. And the examples, you have set down are both unfit. For neither were the works of the heathen philosophers (what show soever they had outwardly of goodness) good works indeed, nor ever will it be granted you of any that can distinguish betwixt good and evil, that a Catholic in your sense (with doubtless with you is one of the Popish Religion, that now is) is a good tree? The reason of the one is, because howsoever the works of those philosophers had in them the matter of good works, in the comformity they had to the outward actions commanded by the law, yet they lacked the form of good works, in that they neither proceeded from a right fountain, were done to a right end, nor in right manner: and you know, that forma dat esse rei: the form is that, that causeth the thing to be this or that: and that it is written, whatsoever is not of faith is sin, Romans. 14, and it is impossible to please God without faith: Heb. 11. which faith they were without. The reason of the other is, that your religion being nought & Antichristian itself, cannot make any man or woman a good tree, but bad like itself: for qualis causa, talis effectus: such as the cause is, the effect will be. Wherefore for any thing you have said as yet, every good tree will so bring forth good fruit, and every bad tree, bad fruit, as that by their fruit they may be discerned. And indeed (cavil you to the contrary as much as you list) this is most certain: all the difficulty is in knowing the good and bad fruit that Christ meant of, and how always to discern the one from the other. In my judgement (and I think likewise in the judgement of every one, that well weigheth Christ's words and the circumstances thereof) by the good fruit we are to understand pure religion joined with an holy life: by the bad fruit, a bad religion, and like life: the good tree, that beareth the former, are only the children of God, whom he hath regenerated, and justified indeed in Christ jesus: the bad tree that beareth the later, are those, that remain in their sins, and under the burden thereof, not yet having had their eyes truly opened, to see the truth, nor their hearts effectually touched, and taught to believe aright in Christ. And these trees are to be discerned by sound trial and examination, which of their fruits are justified by the written and undoubted word of God, and which not.    


The XXXIIII. Chapter.  
IF that the sense of this proverb be hard for you to digest, I a● content to stay until your stomach be somewhat better, assuring myself that you can interpret it no way unto your advantage. There is nothing more certain, than the good tree to bear good fruit, if one doth not make him change his own nature, but if one do graft upon it some crabstock or some other kind of wild fruit, the tree can bear no other but crabs or wileding: even so we Christian persons, who are the trees of God, planted by the pleasant fountain of his grace, and purged with the holy water of Baptism, to bear fruit at our season, so that we take ever to prosper withal, the dew of his grace that planted us, I mean, the faith of our saviour jesus Christ, so long we bear good fruit, as it is said before, alleging the 
a The 5. you would say, as before.  3. of S. john, ill understood by jovinian, he that is borne of God doth not sin, for the generation of God doth preserve him, and the enemy of our health shall not touch him. 
b If yo● had looked into the book, you should not have found both these testimonies in one chapter, for the first is in the fift, & this in the third.  And in the said Chapter, he saith again, all men, or every man that is borne of God doth not sin, for the seed of God is in him, and he cannot sin, because be is borne of God. By this it is not meant, that Baptism (the which he doth call the being borne 
c He speaketh of real & not simply of sacramental regeneration.  of God) doth take away from man the power or liberty to do evil, for if he will degenerate from the grace that he hath received by the sacrament of regeneration, and that in steed of growing grafted upon the stock of the love of God, which is the true life, that he will fructify towards his death and destruction, in this case he is no more the son of God, for as Christ saith, 
* John. 8.  If ye be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. But as he doth continue and hath this good will, which was taught by the Angel unto the shepherds, and that he doth continue, having the grace that was inspired in him by the holy ghost at his baptism, so long he doth not sin unto eternal death, 
d Yea the Apostle to the great comfort of them that are once truly regenerate, teacheth in these places, that such by the power of that grace shall be so preserved, that they shall never sin, as the vnregenera● do, with their whole man unto death.  for the generation of God, that is to say, the grace received by this holy sacrament, doth so defend him, that the Devil cannot persecute him to death, being not able to prevail against him, and as long as this good seed, which is the word of God, doth dwell in him, he cannot sin, and if he did sin, the seed would no longer remain in him. The holy ghost (saith 
* Sap. 1.  the wiseman) shall refuse the hypocrite and dissembler, and shall departed from the vain and crafty cogitations, and therefore the grace of God and sin can not dwell together, nor we ought not think S. john's words strange, in that he saith, that he that is borne of God doth not sin, for it is as much to say, as that one can not serve two masters, and that he that serveth God can not serve the Devil. For. S. Paul saith, 
* 1. Cor. 10.  You cannot assist at the table of God and of the Devil altogether, for what communication is there between justice and iniquity, or between jesus Christ and Belial. And he that doth love this world declareth himself an enemy unto God. And a little before he had said, he that doth commit sin, is the son of the Devil, the which doth not affirm, that a sinner cannot be the son of God, if he repent and do penance: but in the mean while, 
a If this assertion be true, ●●en as often as the regenerate either actually sinneth, or hath but a mind to sin, he is not the child of God. I would gladly know them, h w often the author hath continued a more●h the child of God together, or any man else?  he that is in actual sin, or hath a mind to do evil, is as than not the son of God, but the son of the Devil. The good tree doth not bear ill fruit: for although the fruit do rot or perish upon the tree, that corruption doth not proceed of the tree, but of the worms, birds, or of some other kind of vermin: and therefore, when they say, that by the fruit we shall know the tree, and by the works the faith, this aught to be understood, when the fruit doth ripe in season, and that it hath the natural humour and property of the tree. And in a man, that he have the influence of the true faith & not otherwise: for even as the rotten fruit hanging upon the tree, doth digress nothing from the good stock: even so the ill works of us that are Christians, ought not to stain our holy and Catholic religion. 
b Thus we also answer the objection that you make against our religion, from the lewd lives that you see in some, which seem to be of our profession. It is a good defence for you, you think, why should you not grant ● then so to be to us?  For the corruption of our ill fruits cometh of ourselves, and not of our religion, the which doth defend us from doing that we do, I mean, to swear, to blaspheme, to commit adultery, to do any man wrong, or to offend God any way. He that doth desire then by the fruit, to know whither the tree of our Religion be good, he ought not to bend his eyes to look upon the rotten fruit, as if that were sufficient to disprove the goodness of the tree: but let him look upon the good fruits, 
c You shall find, that you far overshot yourself in your reckoning, when you compare indeed their religion expressed in their writings with yours.  such are all the Doctors, aswell of the Greek as Latin church, so many good Emperors and virtuous Kings, Princes, Dukes and Earls, which have reigned in France, Spain, Germany and England, and over all the world, and have died in the faith, leaving their works to bear witness of their good fruits. 
d Many Kings, Qu●enes Nobles and others of our religion have done these things also.  The which have builded so many fair hospitals, to help & relieve the poor, so many goodly Colleges to entertain fatherless children at their books, so many foundations and works for the common wealth, and that have builded so many sumptuous 
e The first pulling of them dow●e here in England came even from your Cardinals and great bishops, under the pretence therewith to found colleges, and so having given the king an example whe● he was disposed to follow it, they easily consented, indeed the abominations therein committed was their overthrow.  abbeys and houses of Religion, the which you with your godly zeal have not only rob and spoiled, but that that is more odious, you have pulled them clean down, to deface the memory of our ancestors, & to acquit all these which are notable monuments, you brag of the good deeds that your good Christians do, which are much like unto the gains of those that use to cog at dise: for although they win much it is never seen: or like the jews, which to colour their horrible cruelty in putting our saviour unjustly to death, they went & bought with the money that they gave to judas, a field to bury the dead. 
k As deep and grounded papists were liquorish of Abbey lands as any other, and as greedily and securely they enjoy them still amongst us. Cardinal Woolsey and the Bishop of Rochester your great Martyr, first began that course here.  And so you having rob & spoiled from the religious houses and abbeys more than you are able to restore, you think to acquit it all with giving a little to the poor. No, no, these devices are but vain, if by the fruit the tree be known (as Christ saith) let them that have any judgement, look upon the fruit of our trees, & then judge, whither they be good or no.   

The XXXIIII. Chapter.  
PArtly in the former Chapter, but more plainly in this you show, that you understand by the trees, that Christ spoke of, good Religion, and bad. But if you view the place, you will (at least I am sure, you should) rather thereby understand, the persons of men effectually called (as I have said) or not called at all, or (at least) yet uneffectually called: & that sound religion is one of the principal fruits, that he meant should grow upon the former, to discern him from the later. For his scope was not there to teach us, how to discern religions, but how to discern the children of God from the children of sathan. And thus it will prove, that the sense of this proverb will not prove hard at all to us to digest, but to you: who what show soever you can make with the philosophers of outward good works (whereof you brag lustily in the later end of this Chapter) yet you shall never be able to prove yourselves good trees, because your Religion by the sound and perfect touchstone of the scriptures, willbe proved false, and Idolatrous. This yourself give to be the very reason, why the philosophers were bad trees, notwithstanding that in respect of outward show of holiness, we may truly confess with you, that even their lives at the day of judgement shall & will confound a number of Christians in name, which led paynim lives. And therefore until it be set out of question, that your Religion is not false, nor Idolatrous (which is impossible, as long as the Scriptures keep their place) if you brag of ten times more outward works, then either you do, or can, yet your own mouth will condemn you, as yet to have said nothing to prove yourselves good trees. And on the contrary even by this your own saying, if we can prove our religion to be the sound Christian faith, taught indeed by Christ and his Apostles, and therefore that never since, hell gates could prevail against it (which we doubt not of, whensoever you will enter into this controversy with us) then (for all your saying here to the contrary) Christ's sentence shall give us very good advantage.  
Thus having showed your cunning in restraining, and collecting of this proverb of Christ, as I have: now as one, that after some wresting, found it stronger for you, than you would have thought, you grant it to be most true, the naturally a good tree bringeth forth good fruit, & not bad at all, and a crabtree nothing but crabs. And this you labour to prove, first, by certain testimonies of S. john, affirming, that he that is borne of God, sinneth not, & then by other places, as john. 8. Sap. 1.1. Cor. 10. you confirm that doctrine of S. john: & lastly by a similitude, showing, that as the rottenness, wormeatennes, or any such fault in the fruit of a good tree, letteth not, but that still naturally that tree may be said to bear good fruit, because these things fall out by some accident, unnatural to the tree: even so the good tree always, as it is a good tree, bringeth forth naturally good fruit. Here in effect you let go, and give over the former restraining of Christ's words, and recant that you said before, the a●il tree, as the philosophers, may bring forth good fruit: & a good tree, as a Catholic in Religion (by whom you mean a Papist) may bring forth ill fruits: and (will you, nill you) you are enforced to confess, that Christ's words are generally true, & simply therefore always verified of both good trees, and bad trees, as they are naturally considered. But yet you add, the tree is known by his fruit, and faith by works, so as then the fruit be ripe in due season, & not otherwise. Wherein I take your meaning to be, that not every show of fruits, nor unripe works, but works indeed good both in matter, and manner of doing, are the fruits, whereby a good tree, & justifying faith is discerned. You yet proceed and say, that, as a rotten and wormeaten apple hanging upon a good tree (seeing that came not thorough the nature of the tree, but by means of worms, birds, or some other such accident) ministereth not a sufficient argument, to prove that tree to be an ill tree: so the ill works of Christians ought not to stain their holy Catholic religion. For the corruption of their fruits, cometh not from the nature of these religion, which forbiddeth such fruits or works, but from themselves. In all this (understanding not as you do, but as you should, the holy Catholic Religion indeed, which yours will never prove) we join with you, and allow, what you have said. And as you supposing your religion to be the holy Catholic religion, have thus answered the objection, drawn from the good works of professors of our religion, and from the bad works of yours: so even in the same words and manner, supposing our religion, & not yours, to be that true & holy religion, your objection against us, grounded upon the good works of some of yours, & lewd lives of some that yet profess ours, is also answered. For we tell you (as you seem here to tell us) that your works are not ripe works, such as good works should be, both in matter and manner, and therefore no argument more of the goodness of your religion, than the Philosopher's works were of the goodness of theirs: & that the ill works found in some of our professors, ought not to stain our religion, forasmuch as none of them are justified, but condemned by the same. But in the uttering of these things you have uttered divers things, whereof it is needful to admonish both you, and your Reader. First, in examining S. john's words, you seem simply to understand, that by being borne of God, he meant nothing else but being baptised, as though they were both one, or (at least) so inseparably conjoined, that whosoever were outwardly baptised, were certainly forthwith thereby inwardly regenerated and new borne, wherein, you and all that join with you therein, show both great error and ignorance, in the doctrine of that sacrament. For though by that sacrament, all that have received it, are sacramentally new borne, and received into Christ's Church, and therein have had the washing away of their sins, in the blood of Christ, represented unto them, offered unto them, and sealed and ratified, on God's behalf to belong unto them, if they inwardly also will embrace it: yet, to confound the sacrament of regeneration and the washing away of our sins, with regeneration and remission of sins itself, or to tie the later, so unto the former, as that of necessity, whosoever is partaker of the former, is also partaker of the later, is against all good divinity, Scripture, and experience. For divinity admitteth not, a confounding of the outward sign with the inward grace in a sacrament; & the scripture, & experience withal teacheth us, the Simon Magus was baptized; and yet no sound divine ever held, that forthwith thereby he was inwardly regenerated, for by his fruits, the contrary by and by evidently appeared, Act. 8. Again, if outwardly to be baptized, were by & by to be regenerated, than all that have been baptized have been inwardly regenerated, & all that are baptized once must needs be so: which thing if it were so, why, & how cometh it to pass, that many never show any fruits of regeneration, and die giving plain evidence, that they were never borne anew, notwithstanding they were baptized; and that there is no more hast made, to baptise Turks, jews, and whomsoever we can come by? But it seemeth that as you hold this error of baptism, that to defend it withal, you are of opinion, that a man once may be truly regenerated, and so the child of God, justified and sanctified in the blood of Christ, through grace, and yet afterwards in conclusion finally may so fall away, that he become the child of the Devil, and this is the second thing that I though good to admonish you, and your reader of. For this is also a most dangerous error, shaking all the certain grounds of our faith, and therefore to our comfort it is plainly taught us contrary to this in the Scripture, that the gifts and graces of God (whereby are meant the gifts of regeneration) are without repentance, Rom. 11.29. and therefore whom Christ loveth once as his own (as doubtless he doth all them that are new borne once indeed) john tells us he loves to the end, john. 13.1. And Paul upon this ground (that he knew with whom God once went so far, as towards them, to show his power, and mercy in regenerating of them, that he would never finally forsake them, but perfect in them, that good work of his) assures the Philippians, that he that had begun that good work in them, would perform it until the day of jesus Christ, cap. 1.6. And yet I do not deny, but such may have their falls, and that in such sort, that to their own sense & feeling, and in the opinions of others, they have quite fallen from grace, and all the good gifts of regeneration; but yet if before they were not sacramentally only, but really in truth new borne, and cleansed from their sins in Christ; the spirit and graces of God in them were but in this case, as the sun hid from our eyes by thick clouds, and as fire raked up in the ashes, which God will cause to shine again, and to grow to a fire in them, when he in his good time hath caused the clouds to vanish, and hath removed the ashes. This you can hold to be true in Peter, notwithstanding his fall, because Christ prayed that his faith should not fail, Luk. 22. why should you not then upon Christ's prayer, made generally for all his elect, that his heavenly father would keep them, and that from evil, joh. 17.15. conceive the like of all those, whom God hath once sealed indeed, with the peculiar seal of regeneration, proper only to his elect? But it seems you think you have ground enough for this your opinion, in that you see many that have seemed to stand, finally to fall; and that you find the promises run upon this condition, if we persevere unto the end; whereunto I answer, that in the former, you may be deceived two ways; either in taking them to have stood indeed, which yet never came unto it, or in condemneth them as finally to have fallen, when as it may be otherwise: and as for the second, I say, that as it is certain, that the promises run upon that condition, so the Lord will give all those grace, to perform that condition, that be once thus sealed to be his. For nothing shall separate them from the love of God in Christ jesus, Rom. 8. & such are kept by the power of god through faith unto salvation, 1. Pe. 1.5. You must therefore thirdly be admonished, that indeed you do misunderstand john, & the other testimonies to fortify john's doctrine, as dangerously as ever did jovinian, Novatus, or any other, if you take them so to be understood, as it seemeth you do, that by these places we are taught, that none in any actual sin, and having a mind to do evil, is in that mean while, the child of God, but of the Devil. If this were true doctrine, seeing it is written, that no man liveth & sinneth not, 1. King. 8. no man can say his hart is clean, Pro. 20. but even when we are at the best, we must needs confess, that those good things that we would do, we do not, & those evil things that we would leave undone, we do, Ro. 7. & that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, & there is no truth in us, 1. joh. 1. & therefore it is certain that there was never child of God yet, but often times he hath had a mind to do evil, and been sometime in actual sin: I say, these things being most true, because both Scripture and experience teach them so to be, if this doctrine of yours be true also, then so often as there is a purpose, and performance of any actual sin, and as long as that is found in man, so often, and so long he is the child of the Devil, and not of God. If this be thus, if you knew how far actual sin streatcheth, and weighed without dissembling, how prone the best men are to fall, I am fully persuaded there is none of you all, that a whole day together, can have assurance, that you are any other, but the children of the Devil. For if the Lord should straightly mark what is done amiss, and enter into judgement with his servants, no man could for one days space in truth clear himself, of all actual sin, committed either in word, deed or thought, by omitting good things commanded, or doing ill things forbidden. If in stead of saying, in the mean while, you had only said, therein, and in that respect he is not the child of God; your speech might have been borne withal. For indeed in the new borne, though there be a new man, yet as long as they live, they shall find some relics of the old man, remaining, and so a law in their members, rebelling against the law of the spirit, Rom. 7. Gal. 5. by means whereof, it cometh to pass, that though sin reign not in their mortal bodies, and they never commit sin unto death, and transgress with the whole man, as the carnal men do; yet in respect of this old man, that is left, sin dwelleth in them, as a tyrant, and getteth them now and then, to do him some service, though not with the consent and liking of the new, but it striving against the same, as it also evidently appeareth in the two foresaid Chapters Rom. 7. & Gal. 5. wherein, & in which respect, they may be said not to be the children of God, but in the mean while, in that by the inner man, these things that are done, through the tyranny of the old man, are not consented unto, but misliked & striven against by them; therefore with Paul they comfort themselves, & say, now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but the sin that dwelleth in me Rom. 7. & with john (after that through the beholding of this their infirmity, they have confessed, that if they should say they had no sin, they deceived themselves, & there were no truth in them) they raise up themselves again saying, if we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful & just to forgive us our sin, & to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, 1. joh. 1. and so remain still, even whiles they find these battles, foils, & rise again in themselves, the children of God. For S. john is not to be understood, to deny simply that the new borne sin; but to deny that they sin unto death, or with their full and whole power and will, as they do which are unregenerated. Otherwise, he were contrary unto himself, in that he confesseth, speaking of himself, & such as he was, them (as you have heard) that if they said they had no sin, they deceived themselves, & there was no truth in them. Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places, by you alleged, that contrarieth this my interpretation of john, or confirmeth yours. For men, in the time when sin is but thus dwelling in them, & so through their infirmity, now & then (though against the will of the spirit) dursting from them: yet even then retain the spirit of God in them, which showeth itself both in procuring that it was not committed, but as it were with a piece of the will, & in after so taking up the trespasser for so doing, inwardly in his conscience, that he groweth to indignation with himself, for yielding so far, & so to a more carefulness to take heed of sin afterwards, & to a firmer purpose & power, to excercise himself in good works, every day dying more & more unto sin, & living more & more unto righteousness: whereupon it cometh to pass, that such are not, no not even in this time of their infirmity, answerable to the description of the wise man, wherewith he setteth them forth, that are not capable of the good spirit of God, Sap. 1. & such do yet bring forth the works of Abraham, in their inner man at all time, & outwardly also upon the recovery, from the foil of the flesh, from time to time. But sin & grace cannot dwell together you say: & herein, you strengthen yourself with joh. 8, Sap. 1, Matth. 6.1. Cor. 10. it is true, sin with his head uncrushed, in his full power & strength, cannot dwell in the same man, in whom is the spirit of regeneration, at one & the selfsame time; but (as I have said) it may & doth: or else, it never continueth a day to an end in any one man, except the man Christ. For all else daily offend & sin, but yet them sin weakened, & not in his full strength, dwelleth in the man, in respect of the flesh, that is, in respect of so much of him, as is not fully brought in subjection to the spirit, & the spirit dwelleth in him every day prevailing more and more, in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the will of the spirit, and therefore called the new man. This point of divinity though most true and certain, by these your speeches, it seemeth, you are not acquainted withal: but yet it seemeth strange, that you which brag so much of the spirit, to direct your Popes, your counsels, & Church, should (considering the manifold & great sins & errors they have fallen into) set down this doctrine, that sin, & the spirit of God cannot dwell together. As for your place, Wisdo. 1, it is rightly to be understood of such, as are hypocrites, and dissemblers, and dwell in foolish and wilful ignorance, for from such the spirit of discipline flieth, but such are not the children of God, that I have described to have in them, both the new man, and the old, spirit & flesh, & therefore such may, as I have said, be capable of God's spirit, and such may be the true servants of God, and do the works of Abraham, and be partakers of the table of the Lord, as long as sin reigneth not in their mortal bodies, howsoever sometimes it show itself to dwell in them. And this you must be driven to confess, or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation, to yourself and all that hear you. But to pass from these points, which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and yourself of, let us return to your conclusion of this Chapter, wherein, after you have showed us, that to find your Religion to be a good tree, we must not look upon your rotten fruit, because your Religion condemneth such fruit, but upon your doctors and great personages that have died throughout the world, in your faith, and left notable monuments of hospitals, colleges, and such like works behind them; you charge us not only that our Religion cannot show the like, but that rather we have spoiled and defaced your monuments, as your Abbeys and such like, and think to make amends with giving some little now to the poor. Whereunto briefly my answer is, this; all this cannot prove your Religion good, nor ours bade, unless you can prove yours true by the scriptures, and ours false. For as bad fruits as these you charge us withal may be found, in them, whose Religion is good, & as good as these you brag of, to the outward show, may be found, where the Religion is false, and idolatrous even by your own doctrine, in the former Chapter, which answer were sufficient. Howbeit, for the more full, and particular satisfying of the common reader, I say further, first in that you forbidden us to judge of your Religion, by the view of the rotten fruit, that we have found in some that have professed it, because your Religion condemus such fruit, you must not think much if we prescribe the same rule to you, in respect of ours: for as evident it is that our Religion condemneth sin, yea even to the least sin, as ever did yours, and more too, in that we condemn the first motions arising in man's mind to sin, though not consented unto, to be sin, which you deny; and in that we teach the least breach of the law, deserveth in itself damnation, and you do teach there are a number venial sins, even for the littleness thereof, and therefore to be put away even with trifling toys, and devices of your own. Secondly, I say that by that, your Religion be conferred with the Religion, that most of these great personages, and doctors you talk of died in, and both of them be tried by the scriptures, and then compared with ours, it will be found, that not half of them died in your faith as you imagine, yea, that the ancientest and best of them died in ours, and therefore both they, and their monuments are ours, and give greater credit unto our religion, than all the rest do unto yours. And even of late days, diverse famous persons of our religion, have founded Schools, Hospitals and Colleges, as well as yours. What Duke Cassimer is, you know, and what he hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germany this way, it cannot be unknown. Even now also with us in England, a zealous professor of our Religion, and an ancient noble Counsellor, Sir Walter Mildemay, hath founded a noble new College in Cambridge, called Emanuel College. And since the beginning of her majesties reign that now is, our gracious sovereign Lady Queen Elizabeth, notable things by herself and others, there hath been done, to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schools, and also to the maintenance, and furtherance of learning, in both the Universities; insomuch, that I dare be bold to say, it is as much to the good of this Church, and common wealth, as if an other such University as one of these, had been now founded, built, and endued as richly, as either of these now is. And though our Clergy men now, be not able to build so many Colleges as yours were, yet those things that they do that way, though they match not yours in quantity, they yet may overmatch yours quickly in quality. For you know in the Gospel, the widows two mites, which she threw into the treasury, for the poor, of the little that she had well gotten, was in Christ's account, a greater alms than theirs, which threw in far greater sums of their superfluities. Mark 12. And well known it is, that the richest and greatest of ours, are for their places, but beggars to them, that have been of like, or the same place amongst you, whereof, the reason is, not only that they lack a number of devices that yours had, to increase their gain, but also, that they have not your Romish consciences, which with your Pope's dispensation, could make them wide enough to swallow up the commodities, not only of as many benefices, but also Bishoprics and other offices, civil or ecclesiastical, as they could possibly get. Whereof it came, that of their very superfluities, unless they had been prouder than Lucifer, and more wasteful in belly cheer, than ever was the rich glutton, some thing might well be spared, and of a number of them, so much, as might have procured the building of many more than they left behind them. Hospitals and Colleges, though you would so insinuate, we have pulled down none, but have increased the number of them. And as for your Abbeys, & other cloisters of religious houses, you had for the enriching and building of them (under pretence of your requiting of them with your Masses, Dirges, and trentals) devoured so many widows houses, rob so many heirs, and fatherless children, spoiled so many Parishes of the ordinary maintenance for their ministers; and since, the livers in them, were grown to such height of sins not to be named, as that in the just judgement of God, there could no less punishment come upon them, than the utter defacing and overthrowing of them, lest if they had been left easy to have been set in their former state again, they should too easily and too quickly have been shops and sties for the like filthinesses and abominations again. And yet here with us in England, Cardinal Woolsey by the Pope's authority, pulled down the first, and to the suppression of the rest, many of your bishops and Clergy under king Henry consented: and in divers other places they have been also, by lawful and sufficient authority, orderly for these causes, defaced: and doubtless though not turned to so good uses, as they might perhaps have been, if the wrath of God against them, for the foresaid causes, would have suffered it; yet I am fully persuaded, to a better use by far, yea infinite degrees, than they were before. And therefore these things considered, this rather may be counted a good work in us, thus to have defaced them, and converted their use, than a fault whereof we need repent us: And consequently vain is your charging of us, with seeking to make amends with giving a trifle to the poor. This is a fault that rather toucheth your kingdom, then us: for we account all alms and other outward good works whatsoever, to be unprofitable to the doer, unless they be done with goods gotten with a good conscience; which will overthrow most of the glory of the gay works that you most brag of: & you are they that care not, so your Church be enriched, if it be with the farming of concubines, & dispensation for any sin, & with the rents yearly for the open stews, & that with the which they get by whoring during their lives, so you have it when they die. For there was nothing more common, than for your priests to farm concubines, though they might not be suffered to have lawful wives, & experience hath taught, that there was no sin, but there might be merchandise made of it, in your romish court & fair: & the your Popes a long time, have taken rend for the stews in Rome, & that yearly a good round sum, & that they have been glad to take the goods of those harlots, when they died, for their Church's use, it is most notoriously known. And what hath been more usual both in practice and doctrine with you, then to teach much satisfaction for sin, and redemption of former faults, to be performed by alms giving, especially, so it were to your Priests and Clergy men, never caring so you might come by it, of their goods alive or dead, whether ever it was well gotten, or no? For in truth, this hath been the policy, that hath brought your Clergy, to so infinite wealth, as they were of, and made all other but beggars in comparison of themselves. Therefore now let them that have any judgement, as you wish, look upon the fruit of your trees, whether they be so good or no, as you here make brags of.    


The XXXV. Chapter.  
NOw seeing that you have visited our garden, if a man may be so bold, I pray lend us the keys, that we may in like manner visit yours, & that we may see the fruits of your religion. Read all the histories written from the passion of Christ to our days, & you shall find, that all those sects that have left our Roman Church, have done more mischief in one year, 
a Your Romish Church that now i●, is as far gone from the ancient pure Roman Church, as ever any heretics went from it, and of you especially your saying is true.  being separated from the said Church, than they did in an hundred years before. But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors, enemies to the Catholic Church, it shall suffice to make a short discourse of those that have been of late days, I mean the Bohemians or Hussites, whose followers you do affirm yourselves to be: for in your godly book of Martyrs, 
b This is untrue, as every one that will view the ●ct, and monuments of the Church, written by master Fox, may see.  you have placed john Hus as the first Martyr of your ancient Church (who was burnt for an heretic about an 120. years agone) even as we account 
c Your religion and Stephens agree ●o well, that if he were alive again, you would be as ready as ever were the jews, to stone him, whatsoever you say of him now, he being dead.  S. Stephen to be the first Martyr of our Church. Now, to know, whither ye●e of the opinion of the Hussites or no, that I leave for some other time, and for this present, I am content to condescend to that that you have written, I mean, that john Hus did preach your Gospel, and made a number of such faithful persons as you are, and that he suffered death to sustain your Religion. Then let us see, what good fruit this did produce unto us: those that have written the stories of Boheme, and among others 
d Your author you know was a great papist, and afterwards a Pope, & therefore worthily he is to be suspected as a partial reporter, and yet cap. 35. before, he is enforced to confess that the Senate had secretly murdered so many of those that called the Pope Antichrist, that the blood of them running out of the gate bewrayed it, whereupon this and some other extremities followed.  Aeneas silvius, do testify, that in the year of our Lord God. 1418. there was a certain monk that became an Hussite in the city of prague, which is the Metropolitan of that kingdom, the which accompanied with a number of companions as zealous as himself, they did execute so horrible a cruelty, that eleven of the principal magistrates were driven to fly from the City, to save their lives, and seven more (for in all they were 18.) being taken by them, they did cast them out at the windows of their own houses, and did kill them with their spears as they fell. This was done, Sigismondus being then Emperor, in the time of Martin the first Pope of Rome of that name, & Vneslaus being then king of Boheme. The next year after the death of this said Vneslaus: they did spoil 
a This all, is too much and more than either your author, or the evidence of the matter, will beat by far.  all the monasteries, abbeys and Churches of of the said kingdom. And among others, one john Zischa, who was their captain in the City of prague, he made them all pass through the edge of the sword, without sparing man, woman or child. And the like was done in another town of the said kingdom called Messim, the year 1423. It were too tedious to write all their cruelties, they did not care, whither those of their company were of their sect or no, 
b This is your slander for any thing that I can see in your author, or any where else but indeed no people s● barbarous but you can find in your hearts to vs● them against good Christians: yea he hath been a Pope of Rome that hath betrayed a Christian Emperor into the h●nd● of the Turks, for so dealt Gregory 9 with the Emperor Frederick. witness Caspinian.  for some were Idumeans, some Palestines, some Moabites, and some other Amelecites: even as of your bountiful goodness ye call all those that will not be of your sect, Papists, Infidels, Hypocrites & Idolaters: and therefore we may justly say, that you are their right hears apparent, although ye have gone somewhat before them, and (as our saviour said) accomplished the measures of your fathers by the heroical acts that you have done in this (
c You may wholly thank yourselves for the desolate estate of France.  almost desolate) kingdom of France, there needeth no other witness to prove it, but the testimony of your own eyes and ears, which have heard and seen more almost than any man can write. Therefore I beseech you, not to reproach any more the abuses of our ecclesiastical ministers: for although it be so, that they have need of some reformation, yet I do think it is necessary to choose some better stayed persons than you are 
d If you may be judge, this will easily be the sentence  for you have done more harm in five years, than ours have done in 1500. S. Augustine in the first book of the city of God, 
e Capite 1. you might have added.  doth magnify in the Christians behalf the divine favour of God: for he doth write, that when the Goths did destroy and spoil the city of Rome, the Romans (although they were not Christians) did retire themselves for their safeguard into the churches and Temples of the martyrs. And the Goths being but a barbarous nation, had that respect to God, that they never durst nor would enter into those holy places to do them any displeasure. 
f It is a wonder, that yo● that have so openly slaire thousands in Church's, since your most barbarous and faithless massacres of late in France began, & as it is notoriously known, not yet beyond the memory of man, in Merindall and Cabriers, should yet be so impudent to object this to us as a fault (which yet you have not proved, to have been committed by us) wherein you glory as a virtue.  You which make so great profession of the Gospel, have showed yourselves a great deal more cruel than those barbarous people: for they did pardon all those that went to the Temples, and you have in many places spoiled the churches, and murdered all those that ye found in them, so that one might well say to you that, that Optatus Mylevitanus in his book con. Parm. Donatist. the which was, that the Donatists aught to be content (& you likewise) to have wounded the members of the Church, and to have divided the people of God, 
f If you would have learned this lesson, it had been well with us.  at the lest you should have spared the altars and the temples, & not to make war against the stones.   

The XXXV. Chapter.  
NOw in this, you crave the keys to enter by into our garden, to visit our trees, that so you may see the fruits of our religion, having gotten in, in your own pleasant conceit, after you had cast your eyes about you, and looked a while upon our trees: first, you bid us read all the stories since Christ, and tell us that so doing, we shall find, that all those sects that have left your Romish Religion, or Church, have done more mischief in one year, being separated from you, than they did in an hundredth before. Now doing as you will us, we find indeed, great hurt hath been done, by the ancient heretics, for the space of six hundred years, that have separated themselves from the Roman Church that then was, but withal we find, that our Church is far liker that Church, than your Roman Church that now is, and since, what hurt soever hath been done, by one or other, that have separated themselves from you (though we challenge not communion with every one that hath so done) your own doings we find in stories, hath far exceeded theirs, in all kind of impiety. Thus having in these general words, set a good face upon it: as though you could say very much of the bad fruits, which you find growing of our Religion, you begin at the year 1418, with the stirs in Bohemia; laying to our charge, the murdering of seven magistrates of prague, by a certain Monk, and his companions, & sundry other things done, by john Zischa, and his army, in the time of those wars there; than you lay to our charge also once again, all the troubles of late in France, preferring us for cruelty, before the Goathes, that conquered Rome, and yet spared their Temples and those that fled thither, and this is all that you spied at this your view, save that most untruely (as most clearly it appears in Master Fox's book of them) by the way you would seem to have espied, that we place john Hus as the first martyr of our Church. I answer therefore to that which you now object, that both those stirs of ancient time in Bohemia, & these of late in France, began first of yourselves, and so it clearly appeareth, both by the stories, and other circumstances, of these broils. For howsoever you, out of your Aeneas silvius (a writer far more partial, then Sleidan whom you charged before with that fault) report that murder of seven Magistrates in prague, by a Monk, to our discredit, and the rest of the stirs there, that after followed; certain it is, that when all was laid against john Hus, in the council of Constance, that might be devised any way to hurt him, & his cause, and amongst other things, he was charged with sedition, and stir that had been before in prague, he openly in the face of the whole council cleared himself thereof, and all his followers, and showeth indeed, that they did arise first from a letter sent from the College of Cardinals, to the king of Bohemia, requiring him, that together with them, he would renounce & forsake his obedience unto Pope Gregory the 12, which he did, for the which cause, the Clergy were against the king, & so begun the stur. And as for Zischaes wars, it appears in the stories, that the nobles of Bohemia, & Moravia, having under their hands and seals, to the number of 54, entreated the council of Constance, as they had sundry times done before, for the safety of john Hus, & Hieron of prague, and yet understanding that that council to the perpetual infamy thereof, proceeded contrary to the emperors safe conduct, given to Hus, to burn them both, and to make most wicked decrees there, against the kingdom of Bohemia; partly for the love they bore unto these two men, and partly provoked by the monstrous cruelty, showed upon them, by the council, to prevent the mischief intended further thereby, against themselves, and infinite numbers of that nation; they rose in arms, and banded themselves together, rather to root Papistry out of Bohemia, then to suffer the Gospel to be rooted out from thence, which they saw was the intention of that council. Even your own author confesseth, that the injuries done by this council, to these two men (to the great dishonour of the kingdom of Bohemia) caused Zischa to do as he did cap. 36. de historiâ Bohemicâ. So that your own selves, and your bloody tyranny was the cause of all the stirs there. You father also more upon your author, to amplify the matter withal, than he reporteth, namely, that they spoilt all the Monasteries, Abbeys, and churches of the kingdom, and that john Zischa made all to pass through the edge of the sword, without spa●ing man, woman or child; this all, is your addition, and it is contrary to the truth, both of the story, and evidence of the thing. And howsoever the truth were, concerning the death of those seven magistrates that you speak of, certain it is, that your said author telleth of certain men (he was ashamed belike to name how many) by the magistrates of prague, before that, secretly and treacherously murdered, in their council-house, not concealing, that they that were so privily made away, were favourers of the religion of Hus, and that they that so dispatched them were of yours, cap. 35. and 37: whereupon he saith, that that matter coming to light, there was great stir in the City: whereupon, for that and other intolerable injuries before that offered them (not concealed by your own author, cap. 36.) it may be that some such outrage, in revenge thereof, was committed by some of their friends and favourers, as you note out of him. Which I rather believe, was or might be so, because I read in an other Historiographer, that in Zischa his time, the Consuls of prague being grieved with the stirs that then were, called for johannes Premonstratensis, and nine of his adherents into their council-house (as though they would have conferred with them of the common wealth) and when so they had got them thither, that there they secretly slew them, which after being perceived by some blood, noted to have come from thence into the channels, that author denieth not, but that thereupon there grew such stur and tumult, that the people overthrew the Council-house and diverse other houses, and slew eleven principal Citizens, whom they judged the authors thereof. Whereby yet any man may see, that your side gave the first example thereof, and that they therefore are as justly to be blamed as the other. But what marvel is it to hear, that such outrages fell out in such turbulent times, especially when they that in respect of their place, should have given example only of just and orderly dealing, behaved themselves so tyrannically and wickedly as they then there, of your faction, did? when ever hath it been otherwise in such times, and upon such occasions, but that some things have fallen out of both sides not justifiable. Indeed I grant it had been far better, that the Bohemians had taken some peaceabler course, and lamentable it was of both sides that there was such shedding of blood, but yet when men are provoked as they were, and can conceive no hope of better, but rather of worse, such is the infirmity of man, that we see, it commonly falls out so. As for your civil wars, and the mischiefs that thereupon have fallen out in France, you must meet with a very mean man, and simple reader, if notwithstanding the fresh remembrance thereof, and the stories thereof written, you can make him believe, that the fault thereof is wholly ours. Nay every man seethe, and understandeth that your side are they that began first those troubles, that have burned, and with sword most monstrously consumed, whole congregations, men, women, and children, assembled to exercise themselves, in prayer, and hearing of the word, according as by your king's edicts, they were permitted; & that your side it was, that under pretence of an honourable marriage, betwixt the king of Navarre, and the kings sister, drew into Paris all the protestants of name, and otherwise as many as you could, and when you had them there, most tiramnously and treacherously made a most bloody massacre of them. And your friars or friends they were, that of late most villainously slew the French king. And the principals and accessaries to that most treasonable murder, are they that yet are up in arms against his lawful successor the king of Navar. This and a number of such other dealings of yours, are so famously known abroad, that you come to late to buzz these things in the ears of men, that the ruins and desolation of that kingdom is to be imputed unto us, or that we have been the men that are worse than the Goathes, and Donatists, in murdering those, that we found in your Temples. A poor simple man perhaps that reads these things in your book, will thereupon gather that you of your side, are men that can never be charged with any disorderly insurrections, and rebellions, and that your side altogether abhorreth cruelty and never practised any, For who would think that of all other, you would be so ready, so especially, and vehemently to charge us with these things, unless you were the clearest men in the world in them? But understand Christian reader, that this is but their policy to deceive thee, for there were never men more justly and deeply to be charged with these things, than these men are. For if we look but into the stories of our own country, we shall find that scarce one king hath passed his reign without rebellion, for a long time together, and that chiefly by means of the Pope's cursing and banning them for money matters. This, the stories of Henry the second, king john, Henry the third, Edward the second, Richard the second, Henry the fourth, sixth, seventh, and eight, and of late time, the stories of Edward the sixth, and of her Majesty that now is, Queen Elizabeth, do make most clear. For in all those Prince's times, we read of great troubles, and civil wars in this land, and that always especially stirred up by the Popes, and their favourers, if they had not what they would. Sure I am they will not, nor can say, that they that were the authors and doers herein, were of our Religion, but of theirs. The like may be said of other kingdoms, since the time that their Religion hath flourished most. And certain it is that none were ever in these parts of the world, since they came to their height, greater troublers of Christendom, than their Popes themselves. For in Italy under the names of Guelphs and Gibelines, in Cicilie, Naples, and Arragon, for titles of those kingdoms, and in Germany and France for the translating this way and that way the Empire, they have been the cause of most long and bloody wars. And to pass over all the most savage parts, played by these men, (that would seem to have their hands, so free from bloodshed, especially in Churches) of late years in France in killing and murdering of Protestants, as courageously in Churches, as in any other places, where either by force, or subtlety they could surprise them: let them call to their remembrance what was done by a famous Captain of theirs, Minerius, of late under pretence of a commission from Francis, the king of France, to the poor Christians of Merindoll, and Cabriers, and the towns thereabout, and I think they shall be enforced to confess, that they are not the men, they would seem to be. For in that story it appeareth, that after they had by a decree, in the high court of Province, for the not appearance of ten men of Merindoll, adjudged that town, houses, and trees to be made even with the ground, and all the inhabitants thereof, men, women, and children, to be consumed with the fire, and that after their prelate's and great men, had long laboured in vain to put this decree in execution: that in the end, this Minerius, being precedent in Province, handled the matter so, by false informing of the king, that he obtained a most bloody commission from Francis then king of France, through the help of the Cardinal of Turnon, to execute that arrest. Wherein, though his commission stretched only to Merindoll, he behaved himself so, with the assistance that quickly he got, that in short space he utterly destroyed Merindol, Cabriers, and other towns and villages, thereabouts, to the number of 22, giving commission to his soldiers, to spoil, ransack, burn, and to destroy altogether, and to kill man, woman, and child, without all mercy, sparing none: which commission they executed, in the cruelest manner, that their filthy and bloody hearts could devise, ravishing both women and maidens, and putting them to all the torments, they could imagine, cutting of the paps of some, ripping open the bellies of other some, and so most tirannously murdering all they could get. At Cabriers, thirty men he caused to be hewn in pieces, in a meadow near the town, and there he took .40. women, and caused them to be put into a barn full of hey, and straw, and so there to be kept in with pikes, whiles they & the barn and all were burned: and there also he sent a Captain of his john de Gay, to go with a company of ruffians to the Church; where were a great number of women & young children, & to murder them all, which he did, sparing neither young nor old, and so one way and other, eight thousand, were slain in that town. And but for to much troubling of the reader, a number as tragical stories as this, might be set down of their dealings against the poor servants of God, in divers and sundry other places, and namely also not long after these things were done, in the country of Piedmont, and thereabout: but even this is sufficient to make any man see, especially this story being so famous, and done of so late years that your forehead must needs be grown very hard, yet to object such things to us, whereof you yourselves have been most notoriously guilty. You have told us before, that we must not seek to blemish your Religion with the bad fruits we find upon you, for your Religion condemneth them: which might justly have stayed you from going about to stain our Religion, with these things, especially. For sure I am that our Religion condemneth sedition & rebellion, forbiddeth subjects to impeach their Prince's safety, & dignity, either by word or deed, & detesteth all kind of such barbarous cruelty, and tyranny. Whereas it may be justly doubted, that howsoever your Religion, condemn some other gross faults, that be common in men of your side, yet it liketh well of these, and such like kind of dealings, because it is a common thing, for your great Prelates to be the chief furtherers thereof, and to have such things, attempted under commission from your catholic kings, & your Popes of Rome. And therefore, though that your rule weaken, yea fully answer this objection of yours, against us (though it were granted that these things, which you object were true) yet it doth not take away ours, in this respect, made against you.    


The XXXVI. Chapter.  
YOu 
a The answer is to your shame.  make us but a very slender answer, saying, that we were the first, & that you do no other but that that we have taught you. 
b That may be, but sure I am, if you should deny it. I know, & stories to your shane report, that you should say untruly.  If we should say the contrary, I know who should say the truth: but to avoid all quarrels, the best is (following the council of our Saviour) to give you more than you demand. Let us put the case, that we should confess to be the first, doth it follow therefore, that your matter is good? 
c No, but it followeth, that then you may be ashamed to note that as a fault in us, whereof you are first and more guilty.  I pray do but consider the verdict that you both give of yourselves & of us. We are (according to your sacred gospel & Apostolical judgement) no other but poor and simple infidels, & superstitious Idolaters: but contrariwise, you are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, the true children of God. Seeing then, that God hath showed you so much favour, & poured upon you the bountiful gifts of his grace, how have ye sought so cruelly to 
d If any of our profession have do●e so, we neither commend them, nor allow of their manner of dealing, you do, of the like in yours.  revenge yourselves against his express commandment. Is this the way of reformation, to show yourselves as ill as we or worse? Seeing that the matter falleth out so plainly, I pray you be not obstinate, give place unto the best, to reform the rest, for to be worse than you I 
e Your opinion, God be thanked, is no great prejudice unto us.  think none can be found. You my masters that can make such tedious sermons, and rail at large against our Popes and Bishops, why do you pass over so lightly the faults of your 
f We do not lightly pass oue● the faults of our ministers.  ministers? you set out gloriously the titles of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, and extraordinary messengers of God for yourselves: as good Godfathers ye now christian our Popes and Bishops, calling them ravening and 
g In so calling them, we ca●l but a spade a spade, a fig a fig.  greedy devouring wolves. In this ye do greatly abuse the intellection of the scriptures: for if you mark well that, that our Saviour doth say, ye shall find, that ye run far wide of the text, and the similitude of the wolf doth full well appertain unto your ministry. There he doth declare the difference that is betwixt the good shepherd and the bad (which he doth call Mercenarium) & the wolf. 
* John. 10.  The good Shepherd is he, that doth hazard & venture his life for his flock: the ill Shepherd is he, that taketh the milk and the wool from the sheep, & letteth them room without taking any care to keep them. 
h And this we find, i●, & hath been ●f long the very nature and property of yours  The wolves seeing them room abroad, scattered from the flock, doth devour all those that are ill kept. The good shepherd is our Saviour Christ and his Apostles, and all the good Bishops that did flourish in old time, and all the holy Confessors and martyrs that have lived in the golden age, when the blood of our Saviour Christ was yet hot boiling in their hearts. The ill shepherds have followed after, which have not cared for their sheep. The wolves (which are the heretics) seeing this have scattered the sheep out of the fold of Christ, which is the catholic Church, where they had been borne spiritually, that is to say, regenerated with the grace of the holy ghost, & the Sacrament of baptism, to follow the sects of perdition. If all our shepherds had been as careful to keep their flocks as they ought to have been, your Congregation had never been so strongly builded as it is at this day in France. And therefore you offer your Church (if it may be so called) great wrong, when you speak against the abuses of ours, 
i Indeed because your Religion & the principal pillars thereof are plants h●t the heavenly father planted never, therefore you are, and shall be rooted up by the roots.  for our sins have been and are the principal foundations of your building. And even as the worm is nourished in the apostume with the ill humours, even so you feed of our faults, & are nourished with our sins, your fire burns with our wood 
k You must amend both your lives and religion, or else it will be wide with you, I can tell you.  and if we would amend our lives, I know how soon your religion would 
l The gates of hell shall never prevail against ours.  decay. And therefore our Pastors are not wolves, but they have permitted the wolves to devour their sheep, and so they shall answer for them before the throne of the eternal judge, 
m Your shepherds then by your own confession, have been lewd, idle, and negligent shepherds.  who doth advertise them by the Prophet Ezechiel, that they shall answer for all the mischiefs that happen unto their sheep, many of the which are scabbed and full of diseases: and therefore I would have you to cause some body to choose among yours and ours those that are best, to the end, that through this division, and your aid, we may take the rest. I think, that if any thing condemn us, it will be this cause, forasmuch as we have continued in that doctrine which was preached unto us at the first, as you yourselves 
n Yes that we can, and say most truly too.  cannot deny, if you will confess the truth.   

The XXXVI. Chapter.  
YOu would have your reader believe, that we have no further answer to your former objection, but your example, and therefore in this chapter you bring us in answering only for our defence, that you were the first, and that we learned so to do of you: whereunto first you answer, that you know who should say the truth if you should say the contrary; and then supposing that our answer were true, you tell us that our answer will not serve, because we should not have learned, so cruelly to revenge ourselves against God's express commandment of you, whom we count poor simple infidels, and superstitious idolaters. But I trust the indifferent reader may see by that which I have written, that this is not our only answer, and that we answering thus, if you should say the contrary, he now knoweth, that it is you and no other, that therein should speak contrary to the truth. Indeed we confess, that we should not learn of you, nor of any other, cruelly to seek to revenge ourselves, for the Lord hath forbid us to revenge ourselves, for vengeance is his, and he will do vengeance. Rom. 12.19. And if any of our side, have transgressed this rule, we commend it not in them; neither do we encourage other to follow any such example, but yet withal we tell you, and you know it to be most true, that such may be the oppression of God's servants, and the tyranny of their enemies, towards them, that he may as he hath done, extraordinarily stir up some amongst them, to revenge their quarrels, and to deliver them out of their enemy's hands, though such extraordinary examples, are not to be drawn into ordinary imitation. And though there be no reason why we should learn to do ill of you, of whom we account so evil; yet there is reason why you thinking so well of yourselves, as you do, should not teach us, by your often example to do that, which if we do but once, you count an heinous offence in us. You would have the best to reform the rest, if your request were granted, you must amend apace, or else there will none of you be found in that degree. You are angry with us for speaking as we use to do against your Popes, and bishops, and for that in the mean time, we give ourselves glorious titles of Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets etc., passing over the faults of our own. Whereunto most truly I may answer, that so infinite and monstrous have been the sins and abominations, of these your Popes and other prelate's, for this long time, that it is impossible for us all, ever sufficiently to paint out the filthiness of them: and as for our passing over in the mean time, the faults of our own (though indeed we never deny but that there are faults amongst our own, for they are men, and indeed for all your saying, we are the first censurers of ourselves oftentimes for those faults) what reason is there that you should require at our hands, that we should never tell you of your faults, but that we must withal lay open our own? When this is your fashion, we will learn to imitate you: and concerning titles which you say, we so gloriously set out our ministers withal, they are yet but titles, by Christ in his express word, left unto his Church, and of them, some we confess, were extraordinary, and but for a time, as Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists, of whom only we glory in this, that our doctrine is the same that they left us in writing, & the other titles of bishops, pastors, & doctors, as fit for the true ministers of the Gospel, we take unto us, & therewith are we content. So that you rather have advanced your Clergy with glorious and vain titles, them we, in that of your own heads, not thinking the titles that Christ hath left us glorious enough, you have your Popes, Cardinals, and divers other such strange and swelling names of pride and vanity. Yet it grieveth you, as it seemeth most, that some of us, now and then term your Popes and bishops ravening & devouring wolves; some labour therefore you bestow in amplifying a similitude to prove them no wolves: but hirelings and bad shepherds, that many of them have been a great while, yea & that their sins have been the cause of our prospering and prevailing as we have, you will not deny us. It is well that the evidence of the truth, and the force thereof, hath prevailed thus far with you, to cause you to grant us thus much: I fear me if a number of your Prelates, and Popes should come to the reading of this, you should have small thank of them, for yielding thus far. Well, than hirelings they are, and have been, but too much, and too long, by your own confession, & therefore as you tell them, the judgement of God denounced against them, Eze. 3, & 33, is that, that they may make their account of; which being so I cannot see how their veriest enemies should wish them to be worse: yet let us see what reason you have to prove, that they may not be rightly called wolves? Your reason is, because in the phrase of the Scripture you think there must needs be betwixt an hireling and a wolf, spoken of therein, the same difference that is betwixt a naughty, careless, and a negligent shepherd, and the wolf that cometh in the mean time to pray of his flock: whereupon the hireling with you, is as the shepherd, but careless and negligent in looking to his sheep, & the wolf is as the heretic and false teacher, that cometh whiles the other is negligent, & drives the sheep from the fold, & devours them. But you know that similitudes are not to be stretched further than they are brought in, & used for, that notwithstanding, seeing you yourself confess that the heretic is the wolf, we shall well enough maintain our calling of your Popes and Bishops, wolves, I warrant you. For that is the thing especially that we stood upon with you, and we desire nothing more than that you would come once to the sound trial of that point, by the Canonical scriptures, whither you and they have not been most dangerous heretics. Heresy we account any opinion conceived, held, and stubbornly defended, contrary to the sound grounds of divinity set down unto us, in the canonical scriptures. And your Religion to stand, & consist of a great number of such, we are always most ready to prove. It is not your saying, that your Religion is ancient, and received and taught always in the Church of God, from Christ, to this day; nor your bragging that we cannot deny it, as you do here again in the later end of this Chapter, and have often heretofore; that will serve the turn in this case; for I have diverse times heretofore proved the contrary. This is flat, every one seethe it, you can hide it no longer, that if your Religion be so in deed, as you say, than you dare bring it unto this touchstone of the scripture; and it will abide it; otherwise that whatsoever you say to countenance it, with your words, or with the names, and titles, of ancient fathers and doctors, that in deed and truth, it is not as you pretend. I have meetly well already showed the opposition and contrariety betwixt your doctrine & that, taught in the Scriptures, cap. 29. and elsewhere: and yet were it an easy matter to lead on the reader, to a number of such gross contrarieties more, betwixt the doctrine of your Popes, and Bishops, for a long time; and that which is taught there. For it teacheth that God worketh even in the regenerate, both to will, & to perform, even of his own good pleasure. Phil. 2.13. and you contrariwise teach in your doctrine of free will. That teacheth us flatly, that as there is but one God, so there is but one mediator betwixt God & man, the man Christ jesus, 1. Timot. 2. and you set us up a number of mediators & advocates, of saints and Angels besides him. There we are taught that no man can lay any other foundation, then that which is already laid Christ jesus. 1. Cor. 3.11. and your church hath laid Peter for the foundation of the church. And in this scripture we are taught, to worship the lord God & him only to serve Deut. 6. and namely the service of prayer, being one of the highest and divinest points of service that we are to yield unto him, there we are taught by commandment, promiss, and example, only to do unto him: and you come and teach us to worship & to serve even with divine honour, and namely with this of prayer, not only saints & Angels, but also their relics, shrines, and images. What should I say more? your own consciences tell you that you have nothing in the world to escape this, & 1000 more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrine and the revealed will of God in the scriptures, but by subtle sophistry, fond quiddities, and distinctions devised of your own heads, without all warrant and ground from thence, which in matters and questions of divinity is intolerable. These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates, and the truth taught in the scriptures, we having oft observed and told them of, and yet finding them most obstinately to persist in the same, hath caused us rather in respect of their heretical doctrine, to call them wolves, them in respect of their negligence only heretics. And for this same cause, seeing all yours are thus infected, you wish us in vain to join some of the best of them, with some of the best of ours, to reform things amiss in both. For there is no hope of any good reformation at all, where any such as yours, have any thing to do therein. And seeing it is and hath been so common a thing with us (as you cannot be ignorant, if you have read any of our books written against you) to deny, that you continue in the doctrine which was preached unto you at the first, yea seeing you all know, that we count your synagogue Antichristian, for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, taught first unto the Romans, I wonder with what face or forehead, you could write as you do in the conclusion of this Chapter, that we ourselves cannot deny, if we will confess the truth, but that you have continued in the doctrine that was first preached unto you. And therefore not only for your lewdness of life, and negligent shepherds, & bad sheep, doth your kingdom decay (as you would insinuate) but especially for this also, that in the points we strive with you about, you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholic faith and religion, first taught by Christ and his Apostles, and received and continued many years in the ancient Roman church & others. The only way therefore for you is, to prevent an utter & universal subversion and confusion, first to return again from your new Antichristian Religion & doctrine, to the true ancient & Catholic faith taught in the scriptures, and then to amend your manners according to the direction of the same.    


The XXXVII. Chapter.  
ALL our ancient doctors, 
a This is but an arrogant false brag, as we are able to prove, come to particulars when you will.  as well of the Greek, as of the Latin church since the Apostles time, and the Christians of all the four quarters of the world, which were in those days, 
b Christians have always vowed and promised lawful things only to God: & they have had a care to make those vows and promises discreetly, & of such things as they saw, he had made possible unto them; which things are neglected in the vows, that I fear you most mean.  have made their promises and vows unto God, even as we do now, and at their baptism they did use even those very ceremonies that we do, with the selfsame exorcisms, adjurations and anointings, that we do use in our Catholic church, which you call Papistical: and to prove this true, we will bring the said ancient doctors as witnesses, if it please you to read the 
c Never man had worse hap in quoting so few places, as is evident in the answer to this Chapter.  places that we will quote. Tertullian (who lived very near the Apostles time) doth make mention in his book that he entitled, De resurrectione carnis, of the anointing used at the Baptism, and of the renouncing the Devil & all his pomp. In his book de coronâ militis, he doth speak of the third dipping under the water, in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost. S. Cyprian the Martyr, who was above. 1300. years agone, doth write in the second volume of his Epistles, Epist. 12. how they did use in his time to give the holy Chrism unto the children that were baptized. Origen in his twelfth Homily, and in diverse other places of his works, doth make mention of the renouncing of the Devil at ones baptism, & of the making of the sign of the cross upon children's faces when they were christened. S. john Chrysostome in his 12. Homily upon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homily upon the first Chapter to the Ephesians, he doth make mention of the said renunciation made from the Devil and all his works. Read I pray, if it be your pleasure, S. Aug. in Psal. 31. Aug. li 15. contra julia. Pelag. li. 1. ca 2. Item de nuptiis & concupiscentia. lib. 1. cap. 20. in joannem, tract. 33. in Canonicam joannis, tract. 3. & tractat. 6. Et de eccle. dogmat. cap. 31. De Simbolo, lib. 1. cap. 7. & lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris. Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto, cap. 15. & 27. Arnobius in Psalm. 75. All these doctors, which were above a thousand years agone, if you read in them the places that here I have quoted, you shall find, that they did use at the Baptism of their children those very ceremonies that we do now use, and that you do so mislike. And as for confession, before the receiving of the Sacrament, our saviour Christ doth teach us, that the Ecclesiastical ministers have authority to bind and forgive sins. Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis. Origen upon the thirty and seventh Psalm, and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril. libro 12. in johannem, Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast. Cap. 10. All these doctors, according to the Scriptures, in these places do confirm auricular confession. And as for praying unto the Saints in Paradise to help us with their prayers, read Origen, in his third Homily upon the Canticles, and in his 2. book upon job, & his eight book in Eccl. Read Chrysostom, in his eight Homily upon the Epistle to the Ephesians, the fourth Chapter, and S. Augustine, in his twenty book against Faustus, the one and twenty Chapter, and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius. All these make mention of the praying unto the Saints. And for praying for the dead, read Tertullian in his book De Monogonia, and in his book De corona militis, and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem, and in the first book of his Epistles: and Origen in Hieremiam. Homil. 12. Item in Epist. ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Read Chrysostome, in his third Homily upon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians, and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen. against the Manichees, cap. 20. & in the Encheridion ad Laurent. cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda. All these doctors, whose works have continued these 1200. years, do teach us all these things that now we do observe, the which they left in writtng by the ordinance of God, to confute such heretics as you are.   

The XXXVII. Chapter.  
AT last it seemeth by your pains taken in this Chapter, you be thought yourself, that forasmuch as hitherto only in bare and naked words, you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion: that it was needful for you even for shame before you made a full end of your book, to yield us some reasons and grounds, or at least some show & colour, of your so lewd and bold boasting. And therefore here now at last, to that end you have mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers, very providently leaving your Readers to the examining of your quotations, amongst whom not one of an hundredth you knew, either for lack of skill or will, leisure or books, could and would turn to the places in the authors themselves. You thought (belike) your credit to be such, that they must needs believe that you cite them truly and faithfully: and that because you so roundly have huddled them together, that therefore also out of all question they spoke and wrotefully for you, in the points you allege them for. What small cause there is either for you to look thus to be trusted, or for any to yield you such credit herein, we shall see anon, when we come to the examining of your quotations. In the mean time, what meant you by this, thus only when all cometh to all, to countenance these 4, points: your Ceremonies in baptism, confession before the sacrament, prayers to the Saints departed, and prayer for the dead? Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question? Or doth it especially depend upon these 4, and the countenancing of these? Or was your provision ready for no more, that but once in all your book, you seeming to set down the authorities whereupon you ground your religion, you would take the pains to go no further then to these 4, points? Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse yourself and say, that you would have gone likewise on to confirm the rest, but for being tedious to your reader. Truly he is much beholden to you, for your discreet kindness towards him, that have not spared to be tedious unto him in all the rest of your book, in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags, of the antiquity and catholikenes of all your religion (as you have) and with many needles and frivolous long discourses besides, and now when you came to the point indeed, which of all other was most material, and wherein both for his satisfaction and your own credit, it stood you upon most to enlarge yourself, than thus to shift him of, with as good as nothing, bearing him yet in hand, that but for his ease, you both could and would have said enough. This is a common trick amongst you, thus to cousin and abuse your simple readers, to weary them with things needles, and then to slip over with some such shift as this, matters most needful. Well concerning that which either you have said here for these 4, points, or that which after you pretend, if you had list you could have easily said for the rest; this I would have the reader diligently to note and mark, that but for two places vainly alleged to prove your confession, that you neither have alleged any testimony of scripture at all for the proof of these, nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest. Which argueth that even in your own conscience, the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath, either in these points, or in the rest, is but from earth, and not from heaven, from men, and not from the holy ghost. For if you had been able with any good colour to have countenanced either these points, or any of the rest, out of Gods own book and written word, the reader may think that neither your zeal to your religion, nor yet your boasting spirit, which hitherto hath showed itself overflowing in you, either would or could have suffered you, thus much to the prejudice your whole cause, clean to have forgotten, so much as once to go about it. But to say the truth, seeing it is confessed by your betters, not only that this, but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religion, which we strive with you for, are grounded but upon tradition (as I have showed out of Soto against Brentius, Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechism, and Lyndans 100 Chapter of the fifth book of his panoply before) you are the honester man, and the more a great deal to be liked, for your thus secretly confessing the same with them. Now yet by this, the Reader may plainly understand, what hath indeed been the reason, why in all your book hitherto you have laboured so much as you have, to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctors, and withal have spent so much time, in dissuading the appealing to the Scriptures, for the ending of the controversies betwixt us. You were wise enough (it seemeth) to see where your strength lay, and from whence would rise your bane, and therefore who can blame you for leaning, as you do, altogether to the one, and shunning the other? But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more divinity, but humanity, no more Theology but patrologie: and plainly confess indeed from whence you have all your fig leaves, rags and clouts, to cover your shame and nakedness. Truly these you have (whatsoever in this respect you pretend) not from the right and sound apostolic tradition (which always was either expressed in Scripture, or at least consonant unto it) nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly understood, and when they taught (as it was of themselves acknowledged to be their duties) with sound warrant from the scriptures (as I have sundry times showed already) but only from forged, or corrupt tradition, and from the fathers either misunderstood, or erring as men. So that unwriten verities or rather forgeries, sentences of fathers mistaken, or their very errors whereof they would have been ashamed, if they had had the means to help them to see them that you have; are the grounds, pillars, and beauties of your church and Religion. And this we are always ready to justify against you before the whole world, by sound and invincible proof out of the un doubted word of God (interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it, that the holy and ancient fathers themselves have followed, in confuting all heretics in their times by, and which they have likewise commended to others always to be observed) and out of the undoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers themselves. We are therefore very well content to live and die in that Church and Religion, which we are sure we are able thus to justify, and we envy not you, but rather heartily lament and pity you, that yours hath no better ground than it hath.  
But to let these things pass, and to proceed to the scanning and examining of that which you have set down in this Chapter; you begin with an arrogant and false brag, that all ancient doctors, Greek and Latin since the Apostles times, and all the Christians of the four quarters of the world, that were in those days, made their promises and vows etc. as you do now. You are wonderful general (Master Albine) and your words are very confident and swelling; shall we think that you are a man of that learning and reading, that you speak all this upon your own knowledge? why then having such a cloud of witnesses, & such an army royal, allege you so few of them? nine or ten be the most whose names you have brought us in all this Chapter, and these you have brought forth upon the stage dumb, or tonguetied, if we will hear them speak, we must take the pains to attend upon them, by your direction, at an other time, and surely in other places than you have pointed us, we must hear a good sort of these speak for you, or else we shall never find them willing, to yield either you or your cause, any one word good or bad. As for vows and promises, which you make to God, unless thereby you mean only such vows and promises, as both you and we make in our baptism, to renounce the Devil and all his works etc. for than you have not so much as named us one father, Greek or Latin, nor yet any one Christian of any of the four quarters of the world, you speak of. And indeed you have amongst you, such rash, foolish, undiscreet, and superstitious vows and promises a number, for the which you could not, nor cannot truly allege any ancient and holy father or Christian indeed, thereinto give you any countenance. Such be you vow of single and chaste life, universally amongst you tied to holy orders, your vows and promises to God, some of you always, & some for a time, to abstain with opinion of holiness and merit, from flesh and whitmeate, your vows of pilgrimage, to commit idolatry at this! Saint's shrine & picture, or at that, and a number of like stamp; of which kind of vows & promises, if you mean, I say first, your glory in them is your shame, for these are but plain will worships, condemned by Christ Mat. 15. and by Paul Coloss. 2. & the very brands & marks of such, as according to S. Paul's prophesy, in the later days should departed from the faith, & give heed unto spirits of error and doctrine of Devils. 1. Tim. 4. And further I say such vows were better never made, than made, & being made, they are of the nature, & dangerous consequence, that the best way were first to repent of the folly and rashness in making of them, & then rather quite to give them over, than with such superstition and impiety to seek to keep them, as is used & breaks forth thereby shamefully amongst you. For it is plentifully proved, both out of scriptures and out of Ambrose in the second canon of the eighth council of Toledo, that oaths that cannot be performed without sin are unlawful & not to bind. And you cannot be ignorant, that Gratian, causa 22, quest. 4, produceth many testimonies out of the fathers to the same end, and the namely out of Isidor there, he hath noted & set down this, for a good rule in such cases as these of yours be. In malis promissis rescind fidem, in turpi voto, muta decretum, quod incautè vovisti ne facias, impia est promissio quae scelere adimpletur, that is, in evil promises perform them not, in a filthy vow change thy purpose, the which rashly thou hast vowed do not, it is an ungodly promise which is fulfilled with sin. And rather than men that have vowed & promised a single life, through the force of inward concupiscence, should burn and fall either to fornication, adultery, or any other uncleanness or filthiness of the flesh (with were as heaven & earth & all the world knows common fruits of your priestly vow of single life) the ancient Doctors that you brag of here so much, would have them to marry and to repent of their rash vow: as it is evident in Cyril in his third & 16. books upon Leviticus, in Cyprian li. 1. Epist. 11. in Epiphanius himself contra apostolicos l. 2. and in August. de bono coniugali: & de sanctâ virginitate, cap. 34.  
But by the vows and promises that you speak of, seeing you cite no fathers for any other, I will take it that you meant only those that you use to make to God in Baptism. Now then, yet therein understand, you strive without an adversary. For we in our baptism do as solemnly make those vows and promises to God, to renounce the Devil, the world & the flesh withal their fruits, to believe in God and serve him all the days of our life, as ever any of you did, or do. But you say further, that all these holy Doctors & Christians you spoke of, at their baptism did use those very ceremonies that you do, with the selfsame exorcisms, adjurations and anointings, which you do use in your Catholic church, which we call papistical; for the proof of the truth whereof, you name us certain places out of Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen, Chrysostome, Augustine, Basil, and Arnobius: what are these all the ancient doctors and Christians, since the Apostles time that you speak of? Though it were granted you, that these seven in these places, were for your ceremonies which you use in baptism, yet this were far from all that you spoke of before. Thus (to begin withal) every body may see, that you are a far mightyer man in bragging, them you dare so m●●h as to make show you are, in proving all you say. But to pass by this fault, herein you have committed a second fault worse than this first. For whereas you allege these fathers here, to countenance your whole pomp of ceremonies now used by you in Baptism, there is not (you know well enough, or else you are not so cunning in these places, as you would have men think you are) the half of your ceremonies & fashions, so much as barely mentioned by them, in these places. Exorcism, abrenuntiation, crossing, thrice dipping, and anointing, are all that I can find any of these in any of these places to have mentioned; but that they used the selfsame exorcisms, adjurations and anointings that you now use (as you say) I find not. Your Chrism that you anoint withal, must have, as you hold, balsam in it: and in them I find only mention of oil and none of any balsam, & your forms of exorcising and adjuring, set down in your service books, are not found in any of these places, nay it is well enough known they are of younger years by a fair deal. But what are these few ceremonies (the names whereof and use whereof, in some sort they had common with you) to all the solemnity of ceremonies that you use now? To travel no further for the matter, let us but take a view of your rites and ceremonies in this case, as they are set down in your late Catechism, by the decree of the council of Trent, and Pius the fift Bishop of Rome, written and published for the instruction of your parish Priests, what and how to teach their people: and we shall find that these places, do not mention the one half of them, by far. There first, they are divided in three ranks or sorts, the first is of them that you by authority of that council, under pain of being anathematized, must use before the party to be baptized come to the font: the second is of such as be used in the baptizing of him, and the third is of such as be used after. Of the first stamp be these: consecrating of the water, with the oil of mystical unction, of Easter day and Whitsonday, that shall serve for the whole year after, as there shall be occasion to use it, the staying of the party without the Church door, until he either by himself or his Godfather for him, promise the forsaking of the service of Satan, and his yielding to enter into God's service and family, and being asked what he would have, answer be given, that he would have baptism: which being known, them it is said further, that he is to be instructed in the Cathecisme, and is to answer it by himself, or his godfather, which done, then in religious words and prayers, exorcism or adjuration to expel the devil, and to weaken and overthrow his power in him, must be used, a little salt must be put into his mouth, the sign of the Cross is to be made upon his forehead, eyes, breast, shoulders, and ears, and lastly with the priests spittle, his nostrils and ears, must be anointed. Now these things thus finished, than he is admitted or brought to the font, where next follow the rites of the second order, which there are thus set down, then is he thrice asked whither he do abrenounce the devil etc. And thrice he or his godfather make answer abrenuntio, I do abrenounce; and then likewise he is asked, whither he do believe the twelve articles of the Christian faith, whereunto answer is made, credo, I believe; and lastly, whither he will be baptised is demanded, whereunto answer being made, volo, I will: he is baptised in the water in the font, in the name of the father, the son and holy Ghost, either being dipped into the water, or by having water poured or sprinkled upon him, according to the manner and fashion of the Church in that country, where the party is baptised. Where is also further showed, that it was the mind of that holy council, that at the most there should be but one godfather, and one godmother, thus to answer and undertake for the baptised, both because the order of discipline and instruction through a multitude of masters might be troubled, and also because it was meet so to provide, lest otherwise betwixt too many, such spiritual affinities should grow, as might hinder marriage amongst men, too much. For as the writer of that book further saith, most wisely by the Church it was decreed, that there should grow such affinity not only betwixt the baptised and baptizer, but also between the baptised and the sureties, and the baptised his true parents, that thenceforth none of them might marry together. That also may not be forgotten, that there also it is showed, that the natural parents of the party to be baptised, may not so promise & answer for him, that so that rather it we● appear, how far this spiritual education differs from the carnal. Belike the author of this Catechism, & the council & Pope that set him a work, & commanded the publishing of his book, had quite forgotten, that S. Paul saith to natural parents, ye fathers bring up your children in instruction & information of the Lord Ephes. 6. ver. 4. or else they were at a flat point, they cared not whatsoever he had taught. Now your Ceremonies of the lust sort (as he setteth them out) are these, baptism ministered & finished, the baptizeds crown of the head is to be anointed with the holy chrism, a white garment, or at least, a white sudariolun, that is handkerchief or cloth to wipe away sweat withal, is to be given him, a burning wax candle is to be put into his hand, & lastly, his name must be given him. Now, I pray you, what are the 5. things aforesaid, mentioned in these places, to such a number as these? And yet the Tridentine council, whose mind this author plainly set out, thought all these so necessary can. 13. de Sacramentis, that it pronounceth him accursed, that shall contemn, omit, or take upon him to alter any of these. And the more is (as it is evident by your own doctors, Durand, Dorbel, Herolt & others) you observe not these rites & ceremonies, with the opinion that ecclesiastical constitutions of such matters, ought only to be observed withal, that is, in h●lding stilfast the doctrine of Christian liberty in your consciences, & observing them for decency, comeliness & edification, without opinion of holiness, necessity & merit therein, for the better maintenance of order & peace in the church, but most grossly, superstitiously, & idolatrously have you taught men to impute to a number of them, as namely to your exorcism, anointing, & crossing such force & efficacy, as that not only you have made them to encroach far upon the use & effect of baptism itself, but also you have, & do, attribute so great, & so many spiritual graces & effects to them, that little or nothing is left, as special to baptism. Nay who is so simple, but that he seethe, that these & such other rites & ceremonies amongst you (though it be never so evident that they be but of human devise & invention) are more carefully urged & observed, than that very order that expressly it set down in the scriptures themselves, about & concerning the administration of the sacraments: if it were not thus, you durst not so contrary to the doctrine & order of S. Paul 1. cor. 14. appoint & use rather (as you do) an unknown tongue in the ministering of them, than a language that the people might understand & be edified by, & so say amen with understanding to your prayers & thanksgiving. Nether durst you thus to add to the lords ordinances, & accurse them that omit any of your additions, in the mean time, take upon you quite contrary to the words of Christ, drink ye all of this, to bereave the common people of the cup, to the sacrament of Christ's body & blood, withal by your new found term and doctrine of concomitance, perverting quite the use & end of the sacrament, in making it a sacrament of the life & glory of Christ, whereas by his ordinance it is a sacrament of his death and abasement for our redemption upon the Cross. In taking therefore bread a part, & calling it his body broken; & afterwards wine, and terming it his blood shed for many to the remission of their sins, it was his purpose that by the use of this sacrament, until his coming again, his Church should set forth his death and passion, and so the separation of his body & blood, the one from the other: & you by this your devise, invented for the maintenance of your Helena transubstantiation, make it to serve to a quite contrary end, namely, to teach the conjunction still of his body and blood together, and so to be a sacrament in effect to deny his death & passion. Of you therefore it may again most justly be said, that once Christ said of your right forefathers, the Scribes and Pharisees in his time, you are they y strain a gnat and swallow a camel, and that for your own traditions make no reckoning of the commandments of God. Mat. 15. & 29. & Mar. 7. And certain it is, that whiles you and others (of whom you have learned all these ceremonies of yours) have taken upon you, thus to add unto Christ's ordinance of baptism, such a number of needles ceremonies, especially urging them and using them as you do, all these wel● therupon directly follow, you seek to make the day light of the new Testament, even as dark as the night of the old, by your new found figures and types, you strongly lead men to think that the simplicity of Christ's institution of this sacrament was not decent and sufficiently full of majesty, for the dignity of such a sacrament, you by the multitude and pomp of your solemn ceremonies, darken and obscure these things that are essential & necessary thereunto indeed, you take the effects & inward graces, appertaining to the right use of baptism, from it, & communicate them without, other commandment or promise from God, to things but of men's invention: & lastly, forcibly you thereby occasion men to think, that the integrity, & fullness of this sacrament dependeth upon these. Howsoever therefore you would seem, from sundry places in Aug. here quoted by you, to fetch credit for them, yet these things being true which I have said, as they are, & they well considered, seeing in Augustine's time, it is certain, that neither there were so many, nor those that were, so superstitiously were then urged or used, we may be sure that he would, if he were now alive to see and understand all these things, most vehemently write and speak against you therein. For speaking but of the rites and ceremonies, and the manner of using of them that were in his time, he greatly showed his dislike then, both of the multitude and manner of pressing them upon men: saying, Hoc nimis doleo etc. I cannot but extremely sorrow for this, that many things, which most wholesomely are commanded in the divine books, are less cared for, and all things are full of so many presumptions, Epi. 119. And further he addeth in the same Epistle, touching the same, & quamuis ista contra fidem non sint etc. and though these things be not against faith, yet whereas the mercy of god would have religion free, burdened with most few, and most manifest sacraments to be observed, these with servile burdens to press it, that more tolerable is the state of the jews, who although they know not the time of their liberty, yet they are subject to the burdens of the law, and not to human presumptions, and therefore his opinion in the end is flat of all such, that assoon as may be, without all doubt, they be to be cut off, in the same Epistle also. Yea Pope Stephanus, as he is cited of Gratian, dist. 63. Quia sancta, speaking of human orders above the election of Popes, saith plainly, that if any of his predecessors did some things, which then might be faultless, and after they were turned into error and superstition (which is the cause of these your ceremonies which we mislike in you most flatly) sine tarditate antiquâ, & cum magnâ authoritate destruantur a poste●s, that is, without any slackness and with great authority let them, of them that come after be destroyed: which assertion of his, he doth ground upon the example of good Ezechias, in breaking the brazen serpent which Moses had made etc. And whereas you, under your Tridentine curse, would bind all churches to the strict observing of all these your solemn ceremonies: you know, or at least should, that that is contrary to the ancient doctrine of Christian liberty in such things, and to the practice and experience of the primitive Church. Annicet and Polycarp, the East Church, and the West (you know) a long time freely differed about the time of the observation of Easter, and yet pacem (saith Irenaeus) in universâ ecclesiâ etc. that is, both parts throughout the whole church, kept and maintained christian peace, Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 23. and so likewise there he shows, that there had been a long time great difference, about the fast before Easter, both for the time of the continuance and otherwise, & yet that thereby rather in his opinion, the unity of faith was commended then hindered. And of Gregory's answer to Leander, touching the dipping of the baptised once or thrice (the answer being as it was & is reported by your own Gratian, de consecr. dist. 4. that howsoever the party was once or thrice dipped, it was to be counted baptized, you might learn that there is no such necessity as you imagine, to have generally throughout the whole church of Christ, one precise form of rites & ceremonies to be kept, that touch less the substantial parts of the sacrament, than this did. That Gregory could say (to fortify that answer of his) in unâ fide nihil officit sanctae ecclesiae consuetudo diversa, that is, the diversity of custom or fashion doth not hurt the church, continuing in one faith. And our Chronicles do plainly testify, that neither Eleutherius, bishop of Rome, about the year 180. (though king Lucius here sent unto him for the Roman laws to frame his people by) would bind him thereunto, nor yet the foresaid Gregory answering Augustine the Monk's question, would tie him then, for the ordering of the church here, to the Ceremonies and customs of Rome. But the first sent Lucius, for his direction, to the laws of God, being without exception, and not to the Roman laws, which might (he confesseth) be reproved, and the other in his answer to Augustine's third demand, how it came to pass that the faith being but one, the ceremonies and customs were so divers, as that there was one manner of mass at Rome, & an other in France, wils him without respect of place, out of many churches, to choose the best orders. And who so will read Socrates 5. book and the 18.19.20.21 & 22. Chapters of the same, he shall there find not only in a number of things diverse fashions, rites and ceremonies, noted by him to have been in the churches of Christ (insomuch that in the 21. Chapter not only he writeth, that altogether truly and in all observances of godly prayers, two churches could not be found, that did fully agree amongst themselves) but also, that this notwithstanding, the unity of faith, & christian peace was preserved & maintained amongst them. The like may be seen in Zozomens 7. book & 29. Chapter. Your own Tridentine Catechiser of your parish Priests could see (as I noted before) that touching dipping the party to be baptised in water, pouring it upon him, or sprinkling him with it (so that every one follow therein that order, that he seethe in use in the Church wherein he is) it is not material which way be used, for which of them soever be used, so (saith he) this sacrament may rightly be ministered. So much the stranger is it, that both you here and he there, & your whole Tridentine council, should so peremptorily seek to bind all churches and persons, to the strict keeping and observing of all your foresaid rites and Ceremonies, in the ad ministering of the same.  
Further concerning this point, I must tell you, that for your pleasure I having turned to these places, which you quote for this purpose, as I find, by comparing of yours with them, that they mention, you have many that they speak never a word of in these places (as namely your consecrating of your water and Chrism so long before, your dealing with the party at the church door, your putting of salt into his mouth, your dressing his nostrils and ears withspettle, and your giving him a wax candle burning into his hand) so thereby and by view of some other places in them, I plainly see, that you have now given over the use of some, which then were used, upon the like ground that the rest were, which you would seem to have from them. For first Tertullian in his book de coronâ militis (which is the second place you quote) as there he mentions thrice dipping, renouncing of the Devil, his pomp and Angels, which you would seem to allow and use with him, so he saith, that being taken from out of the water, we taste before hand the temper of milk and honey, and from the time of our baptism, for a week, we abstain from daily washing, and all these doth he ground a like, saying Harum & aliarum disciplinarum etc. that is, of these disciplines, if thou requirest the law of the scripture, thou shalt find none, tradition shall be pretended to be the author, custom the confirmer, and faith the observer; & yet you have left these two last long ago, for any thing, that I can learn. And Augustine, an other of your authors in this case, in three of the places named by you mentions exufflation which you have given over, as he doth some other, that you retain. And the same author upon the 65. Psalm shows, that in their exorcism they used fire, because it is written in the Psalm, passing through fire and water thou shalt come to a refreshing: and in his 4. book ad cathecumenos, de Symbolo, lib. 4. cap. 1. he saith, that before baptism, was used beside the Catechism, exorcism, prayer and canticles: in sufflation, sackcloth, bowing of the neck & humility of the feet. And Hierom upon the 55. of Esay, and against the Luciferians shows further, that then was used the tasting of wine and honey. Wherefore if the doctors and fathers, mentioning of some of your ceremonies, bind you to think the use thereof lawful and necessary still, why should not their authority be of as great force for these, which you see, they ground aswell as they do the other? And if their mentioning and thus grounding of these notwithstanding, you will be at liberty to leave these, why may not we aswell be at our liberty to leave off some of the other, that we find most needles, and most to have been abused by you, to obscure and darken the simple institution of this sacrament? Will you follow the fathers as far as you list, and leave them when you list, and may no body but you do so? Moreover in looking (upon this occasion) into the monuments of antiquity, and the writings of the ancient fathers, I must needs advertise thee (Christian reader) that I find great variety, in the enumeration of ceremonies about this sacrament in them, and likewise great odds betwixt the opinion and conceit, that some of the father's show they had of them, from that that others, of as good credit as they, had: whereby it is evident, not only that they were not used alike all in every place, but in some places and times more, and in some less: but also that some used them to one end, and some to another. So that no certain rule either for the ceremonies themselves, or for the manner or end of the use of them, can be deduced from thence. Whereupon it must needs follow, that for any thing written by the ancient fathers hereof (so that the essential parts and things belonging hereunto, which have express warrant from the institution thereof, be observed first, and then next according to the practice and example of the Apostles, and the times next after them, necessary instruction and explanation to and of the right use thereof, with convenient prayers and thanksgiving, meet to be used in such an action be used, and that also in due time and place, by, to & before fit persons) any Church of Christ in any kingdom by the provincial authority that it hath, may freely reject so many of the other rites & ceremonies as it shall think good, and likewise retain so many of them, as she findeth may fitly be retained for order and comeliness, without placing any opinion of necessity, holiness or of merit in them. And therefore, forasmuch as our Churches carefully have taken this course in these three points, and follow the same in truth, there is nothing, that these fathers that you have named, consent upon, about the administering of this sacrament, but we fully do observe the same. And here in England especially what fault can you find? Of the 5. things your father's mention we retain & use, though not with any superstitious intention (as you do) 2 of them: the rest we have cut of according both to S. August. advise, & your pope Stephanus judgement before noted, because the multitude before was too great for the time of the Gospel, & they were grown into gross abuse amongst you. No essential or necessary thing to be done is omitted with us, and we have besides fully enough, for the time of the new Testament wherein we live, in which time it is more likely in such ceremonies. rites and fashions for us to err, rather in retaining too many, then in abolishing too many.  
But because neither you shall say, nor your reader think, y these fathers, whose names you bring us, to countenance all your ceremonies, which you use about baptism, are so full & fast of your side therein, as you pretend: I will vouchsafe so much further pains, as particularly to examine all your quotations out of them. The first man you name is Tertullian, and in him you send us to two places; for your anointing and abrenuntiation, to his book de resurrectione carnis: and for thrice dipping, to his book de coronâ militis. Wherein it seemeth a little you mistook your notes: for there is no mention of abrenuntiation that I can find in the former place, in the later indeed there is: but you quote the former for it & not the later at all. Whereby any man may see, you took your quotations upon trust, and never took the pains to turn to the places in the authors themselves, and that so it came to pass, that that which you should have fathered upon the later place (through ignorance) you have attributed to the former. Anointing, I find mentioned in the former place (I grant) but neither the matter nor form of your anointing, can I either find there or in any other place, quoted by you for it. And in the other, I confess he mentioneth thrice dipping, but to what purpose is that, to justify your ceremonies or manner of baptizing, seeing (as I have noted before, out of your Tridentine cathechism) in this point you are so indifferent, whither it be ministered by dipping, pouring, or sprinkling, & never once there prescribe, this fashion of thrice dipping as necessary? Your second author is Cyprian, who (you say) in the second volume of his Epistles, Epist. the twelfth doth write, that the holy Chrism was given unto children that were baptised. Wherein your note gatherer abused you. For doubtless in that Epistle there is not one word, either of Chrism or any other Ceremonies about baptism. Indeed in the 12, Epistle of his first book of Epistles, he speaks of anointing the baptised with oil, but holy chrism he calleth it not. But to speak the truth, both Tertullian and he, have not only in their works sundry times mentioned Chrism and anointing of the baptised; but they went too far both in urging the necessity thereof, and in attributing unto it such divine grace as they did: insomuch, that it is not without cause of the learned thought, that therein they were both the scholars of Montanus. But certain it is, of whomsoever they learned thus to urge this ceremony, to the obscuring & prejudicing of the use and effects of baptism, as too grossly they did, in tying rather the gift of the holy Ghost to sanctify and regenerate to it, then to baptism, they never learned it other of Christ, nor of any sound Christian, nor may any Christian more think himself bound to urge it, and use it as they did, because they did so, than he is bound to be a Montanist, because Tertullian was so, or to hold rebaptisation of them, that before were baptised of heretics, because Cyprian did so. Your next man is Origen, to whose 12. Homily, without any further addition, and to diverse other places of his works (without naming unto us any of these places) you send us, for abrenuntiation and the sign of the Cross to be made in the baptised his forehead, wherein it was your hap, to show as great negligence and ignorance as might be. For Origen wrote many times 12. Homilies (as it is to be seen in his works) whereas it should seem by your kind of quoting of him, that you thought he had done so but once, and yet in none of these 12. Homilies that he wrote, find I these two ceremonies mentioned, and as for the diverse other places in his works, that you speak of, when you shall vouchsafe to name them, your answer will be as easily made. Next is Chrysostome, of whom you allege two places, his 12. Homily upon the first Epistle to the Corinthians, cap. 4. and his first Homily upon the first Chapter to the Ephesians, and both these only for renuntiation. In the first whereof, there is mention of the sign of the Cross made in the forehead, but not expressly in Baptism, and in the other there is mention of renuntiation indeed, but so there is not at all in the former: whereby again one may see, how you never turned to these places and read them yourself: and besides it is evident, that either through ignorance or negligence, or both, you father that upon your former noted place, which you should attribute to the later: as here, that upon Origen, which you should have left to Chrysostom, and so show your error in both. But what were all this (if you had not been at all thus overseen) against us, or for you more, then for us; seeing both these ceremonies or rites, are retained and used amongst us, in far better manner then with you. Now followeth Augustine, out of whom you quote us, in Psalm. 31. Aug. lib. 15. contra julianum Pelagianum. lib. 1. cap. 2. Item de nuptiis & concupiscentiâ. lib. 1. Cap. 20. In johannem tract. 33. In Canonicam johannis, tract. 3. & troth. 6. & de Ecclesiast. dogmatibus Cap. 31. De Symbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. & lib. 2. Cap. 11. & libro de his qui initiantur sacris, that is, eleven places in all, wherein yet you have more grossly shamed yourself, then in the former. For first of all in these eleven places, there are but three, wherein I find any mention of any of your ceremonies, and that is, in his first book and second Chapter against julian, in his first book and twentieth Chapter de nuptiis & concupiscentiâ, and in his thirty one Chapter de Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus: and lay all these three together, and there are mentioned only three, that is, exorcism, exufflation and abrenuntiation, whereof we use one aswell as you, namely abrenuntiation, and as for the other two, thereof you yourselves have but the first, and therefore why may not we aswell, give over both the other, as you have done the first of them. Secondly, you send us indefinitely to his fifteen book (as you did before to origen's twelfth homily) not telling us what 15. book you mean, thinking (belike) that he had never wrote but once 15. books of one title, whereas every one, that is acquainted with his works, know the contrary. If you say you meant his 15 book against julian, then therein you show as much ignorance: for against him, he wrote but 6. Thirdly, you father upon Aug. two books de symbolo, & one de his qui initiantur sacris, whereas indeed in all Augustine's tomes, there are no books that simply & barely bear those titles, to be found. He wrote one book de fide & symbolo: & 4 de symbolo ad cathecumenos: but in no 7 nor 11 Chapters of any of these, is there any thing for your purpose, but none at all he hath written, that in title cometh any thing near the other, you father upon him. But I imagine, that if your eyesight, or memory, had not failed you, you should and would have quoted these not in his name, but in Ambroses'. But yet than you took your mark amiss also. For he hath no books neither, that simply carry these titles. Indeed he hath written five de fide ad Gratianum, and one de fide orthodoxâ, contra Arrianos, and a book he hath written, de his qui initiantur mysteriis, and five de sacramentis, but in no seventh nor eleventh Chapters of any of his books de fide or symbolo, hath he any thing to serve your turn. Never man therefore, was so abused as you (Master Albine) were (I think) in taking so few quotations of credit. I would therefore henceforth advise you, unless you be even resolved utterly to lose your credit, trust no more thus either other men's eyes or fingers. Well, Basil and Arnobius are yet behind, let us see if you hit any rightlier of your places out of them: you cite Basils' 15 and 75 Chapters de Spiritu Sancto, and Arnobius upon the 27 Psalm: Neither of which you have rightly quoted. For there are but 30 Chapters in all Basils' book de Spiritu Sancto (as Erasmus hath translated him, & caused him to be published) and Arnobius upon the twenty seven Psalm, hath not at all mentioned any ceremony about baptism, Basil in his fifteen and twenty seven Chapters of that book, and Arnobius upon the seventy five Psalm, make mention of abrenuntiation, & of some other ceremonies, before mentioned by the other fathers: but yet neither these, nor all the other laid together, that you have named, either in the places mentioned by you, nor any where else, mention all the ceremonies which you use, by far, though you would by your loud bragging make your reader believe they do. Thus you see, unless you had been disposed utterly for ever to shame yourself, you could not in so few quotations, especially not set on your margin, but in your lines as they are, the better to prevent wrong applying of them, have been taken with thus many gross oversightes. May not any man (worthily think you) hereby judge, that howsoever the names of the fathers are familiar with you, that yet you are a very stranger in their works indeed? Of twenty places, you have alleged aright and to the purpose, scarce five, and of seven fathers (belike because you would not deal partially with them) your hap hath been, one way or other, to err in quoting of every one of them. Surely you are worthy to be trusted upon your bare word, without any further examination of your quotations an other time, you have dealt so faithfully and uprightly in these. And to conclude this point withal, as though you had most rightly quoted, and that they most pregnantlie had justified all your Ceremonies as you use them, you confidently tell your reader, that if he will read these places he shall find, that they did use the very Ceremonies, that you do use, and we so much mislike. Thus yet you could set a good face on the matter, though you could do little else.  
But in good earnest, is it your meaning, by these places to make men before that none are to be accounted rightly baptized, unless unto him, all these your ceremonies, which you talk of be used? What say you then to Christ's baptism, and the multitudes baptized by john in Iorden, and after by the Apostles, sometimes in one day, in water that was next to hand? Sure I am, that none of your ceremonies that you strive for here so much, which we mislike, was used then to any of them: and yet I am sure never were any with these ceremonies of yours, better baptised, than these were. Nay to press you a little further, if these ceremonies were so necessary as you pretend, how chanceth it, that above 600. years after Christ (that is long after any of the fathers you have named to countenance them withal) we read in Bedaes' story, so often mention as we do, of so great multitudes, here in England, by famous Bishops baptized in one day in common rivers? It is unpossible that they should baptise so many in so short time as that story shows they did, and yet use to every one, all the solemnity of ceremonies, that you here thus plead for. It is clear them by that practice, that for all this, and whatsoever else anywhere, either these, or any other doctor, before that time had written hereof, that then there was no such danger imagined to be in omitting of these, as your Tridentine council now, would make men believe there is.  
But for a general answer to all that you, or any of your side, have or can allege out of any father, either for the justifying your kind of using these your ceremonies, or any of the other three points that follow in this Chapter (as long as you are not able to warrant your doings and opinions therein, by the scriptures, which we are sure you shall never be able to do) by the father's leave, though they were as pregnant for you as you pretend (which they are not neither) & that by the direction and advise of the best of themselves, we will & may choose, for all their writings, whither we will like any whit the better of them or no. For Hierom saith, that all things which men seek out and invent at their own pleasure, without authority and testimony of the scripture (as though they were the traditions of the Apostles) the sword of God cutteth of. Upon the first of Aggei. And Origen in his first homily upon Hierom, confesseth, that their judgements without witness of the scripture were of no credit. And Hierom again upon the 98. Psalm writeth, that all which they spoke, they were to prove by the scriptures: and upon the 23. of Mat. he saith plainly, that which hath not authority from the scriptures as easily is despised as approved. And Chrysostome upon the 2. to Tim. Hom. 9 saith, if there be any thing either to learn or to be ignorant of, we shall learn it in the scriptures. And as for all other authority, Hilary saith in his 7. book of the trinity, that it is short, dark & troublesome. And as for Augustine, he of all the rest, hath most plainly taught us this, in his 19 Epistle to Hierom, and also in his 111. epistle to Fortunatian, where he plainly shows, that he gave no further credit to any man's writings, than he found them agreeable to the scriptures: and therefore de baptismo, contra Donatistas' li. 2. cap. 3. he refuseth to be pressed either with the authority of Cyprian, or any other man, or council further, then by the canonical scriptures their judgements are approved: and he teacheth Paulina in his 112. epistle, not to follow his authority, or to believe a thing because he hath said it, but to believe the canonical scripture. We say therefore with him lib. 1. cap. 22. de peccatorum meritis & remissione: let us yield & consent unto the holy scriptures, which can neither deceive, nor be deceived: & again I require the voice of the shepherd, read me this matter out of the Prophets, read it out of the Psalms, read it out of the law, read it out of the Gospel, read it out of the Apostles writings: in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him, I own my consent without gainsaying only unto the canonical scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ & gratiâ, and according to these books of the scriptures, we have learned of him to judge freely of all other writings. lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium. The fathers are full of such places, whereby any man may see, that by their very good leave, we are not to be pressed to believe or receive any thing, not taught in the scriptures, upon their bare authority, and therefore these and such like places in them considered, if you would have had their names, & the places you cite in them, to have in sadness, bred any sound credit to any of these four points you allege them for, either should you have warranted them, by good proof out of the scriptures yourself, or have showed us how they proved them consonant, at the least, to the same.  
Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader, to make him think, that the fathers you name for these matters, are further of your opinion than they be indeed, as I have not refused to examine your opinion, and the places you send us unto for your ceremonies, so will I, for the Christian readers sake, take the pains to deal with you for, & in all your other 3 opinions, of confession, prayer to Saints & for the dead, & with it your several quotations, set down for the proof of the same. To go on therefore according to my course begun: for confession before the receiving of the sacrament, you say first, our saviour Christ doth teach us, that the ecclesiastical ministers have authority to bind and to forgive sins: and for proof hereof you set in your margin john. 20. & Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession, that you speak of, you mean your auricular confession, whereof your Tridentine council taketh such care, that that in the 6, 7, and 8, Canon thereof, touching this matter, it solemnly anathematizeth all those, that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to salvation, by the law of God, saying that it is but the devise of man. Which they there have defined to be a secret reckoning up unto the priest, of all mortal sins at the least, with all their circumstances, whereof by due premeditation the party can have any remembrance, whereunto they bind all persons above certain years, of both sexes, at lest once in the year, and that namely in lent, before their receiving at Easter. Now this confession, your schoolmen and doctors do teach, must be made so fully and exactly, that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be concealed, for then thereby all the labour is lost, and the absolution frustrated from all the rest. Which doctrine cannot choose, but a number of ways prove a needles and a desperate tormenting of consciences. For first it layeth upon them an inevitable necessity, not only to do, that which God never required at their hands, but also that, which either is simply impossible unto them to do, for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof: or else impossible for them to do in such manner, as that they can satisfy themselves, that they have omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins & the circumstances thereof, that they should confess, to their remembrance, which a number of your own side most devoutly given to do this in the best manner, have been enforced to confess. Yet this confession before the sacrament (though indeed it be a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures) but was (as both johannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict, 17. art. 3. and Anton: part 3. histatit. 19, do confess) first imposed as necessary by the Lateran council, in Innocent the thirds time, about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteen, you here would seem to countenance by two places of scripture, co begin withal. But your betters have thought otherwise, of this your kind of confession. For your gloss de paenitentiâ Distinct. 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainly, that it came in rather by some tradition, then either by authority of the old testament or new, which tradition (he saith) yet aught to bind the West Church to use it, though not the Greeks & East Church which have it not. And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes upon tertullian's book of repentance, forasmuch as he findeth not therein any mention hereof, not only gathered that it was not in use then, but also he showeth, that he thought it came in after & grew of the mislike of the inconveniences of the continuance of public confessions made in the public assembly in the hearing of all the congregation used severally in the former times. And Soto contra Brentium reckoneth up both your other two points following of praying to Saints, and for the dead, & this also, amongst the things grounded but upon the unwriten word or tradition. You had therefore dealt both more wisely and more simply & honestly, if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side, you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where else rather, then from the scriptures. But seeing you will seem to have found that ground for it there, which they could not, let us a little consider, how folly now the places you quote, serve your turn. You mean, I am sure, both by your words and quotations, that Christ's doing and saying to his Apostles set down by Matthew & John, in the places you quote in these words: to thee (speaking namely in the first place to Peter) I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven, & whatsoever thou shalt bind in earth, shall be bound in heaven, & whatsoever thou losest in earth shall be loosed in heaven. And in the other, he breathed upon than and said, receive ye the holy Ghost, whose sins ye remit, they are remitted, & whose sins ye retain, they are retained. Whereby indeed it is evident, that our Saviour first promised to Peter in the name of all the rest, & after gave to all his faithful Apostles, first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to use the neys of the kingdom of heaven, to bind and lose, and to remit & retain sins, which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually used, whiles faithfully they preached salvation to the penitent believer, and denounced damnation to the impenitent unbelievers, with all duty (as they saw cause) using the censures of the Church of admonition, rebuking, suspending and excommunicating, though they were never acquainted with your auricular confession. And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithful ministers in his church still, not by the help of your eare-shrist, pardons &c. but by their faithful preaching of the will of God, sacraments ministering, and using of the other censures in due time and place. They have a ministry of testification and declaration, by the rule and light of the scriptures, thorough the shining of God's spirit in their hearts, to assure them that rightly understand them and believe them, of that assuredly: which God only doth properly, absolutely and principally. But you seem in thus alleging of these places, first, so think that the power and authority the Christ here gave his Apostles to bind and lose etc. investeth them straight with power and authority to bind every man to make unto them your auricular confession: whereas we neither read that any did so unto them, nor that they for all this, ever exacted any such thing at any man's hands, that they dealt withal: and secondly, you seem to take the power given them, and from them derived to other ministers here, to be such, that they properly and absolutely should have power to pardon sin. etc. which is absurd and blasphemous for you once but to imagine. For so can none forgive sins, but God only. How can you say or think, that a Priest properly or absolutely can absolve one of sin, seeing he may not so much, as pronounce or declare a sinner to be pardoned of God, unless he be contrite, penitent, and faithful indeed. Now God only and the party are privy to this, whither these things be sound and right in the heart or no, for an hypocrite can make a show to deceive man withal in these (you know) unless therefore we will think that we have power to absolve him whom God yet condemneth, our pronouncing of pardon or absolution to those that seem such unto us, must be but conditional, if they be such in deed as they make show for, and therefore neither is, nor can it be proper or absolute. Ambrose libro 3. de Spiritu Sancto ca 19 by that of john, proves the godhead of the holy ghost, for that he can and doth forgive sins: which were no good argument, if by that place, Christ meant to give ministers power and authority properly and absolutely to do it, unless it be lawful to think, that they are very Gods. But mark, I pray you, your kind of reasoning from these places: Christ gave to his Apostles power and authority (giving them the holy Ghost) to bind and to forgive sins, ergo auricular confession before the sacrament thereby was enjoins: this is your argument, or else you say nothing in all this for yourselves against us. For we deny not, but most willingly confess, that by these places it is certain, that Christ gave unto his true ministers, to whom he gave the holy Ghost, power and authority as ministers to do this. But what is this to authorize your priests, which are no ministers of his ordinance, and to whom he hath not given that spirit to do this? Or what is this if they had authority to do it, either to that which they take upon them, or to enforce a necessity of such auricular confession, as you practise and plead for?  
Herein it is with you, as it is in other points of your religion, you are deceived, and after seek to abuse and deceive others, with the ambiguity and diversity of acceptions of confession. For that is a common trick with you, when you find either in scripture or father, that there is but the word mentioned, that by any stretching may reach to your meaning, to allege that straight, as flat, full and pregnant for your purpose, when as indeed, if the circumstances of the place he looked into, it is as far from countenancing your opinion as may be. So in this case, you finding in scripture some mention of confession of sins, and sundry examples of the same, and likewise in the fathers, you finding that they exhort and persuade men to confess their sins, you by and by imagined that your auricular confession must needs be that, that they speak of, or at least (your learning not suffering you so to imagine) you contrary to your own knowledge and conscience (as it seemeth) could be contented to do what you could, to make your Reader so to think. Wherefore to arm him hereafter against your subtlety, or the cunning of any of your fellows in this point, and so to give him a treacle to preserve him from the danger of your popish poison in this case, let him know and understand, that there have been and be, many kinds of confessing of sins spoken of, both in scriptures and fathers, and yet you never the nearer for yours. For Augustine, de verbis Euangelii, hom. 8. very prettily, according to his manner saith, that confession is tither laudis or fraudis, that is, of praise or of fraud: by the former understanding that kind of confession, whereby we thankfully acknowledging, what God hath been or is unto us, we burst forth into lauding and praising his holy name therefore, whereunto the faithful servants of God are oftentimes exhorted in the scriptures, as for example, Psalm 33. in these words, confess unto the Lord in harp, and in a psaltery of ten strings sing unto him. And Dan. 3. in these, confess unto the Lord that he is good, and that his mercy is for ever, which kind of confession in our Churches we always publicly use, both before and in the receiving of the Sacrament, which we teach to be a Sacrament even to provoke us so to do, for our free and full salvation purchased for us by the death of Christ. And the other is the general; to all kinds and sorts of confession of sins, which he termeth fraud, because by all sin God or man, or both, are wronged of that which is due unto them. Otherwise some distinguish confession, into confession of faith and confession of manners: of the first whereof, sayeth Christ (Matthew the tenth) he that confesseth me before men, I will confess him before my father which is in heaven: and of this Saint Paul speaketh, saying, with the heart man believeth to righteousness, but with the mouth confession is made to salvation, and this is far more plainly in use with us also then with you. For in all our public assemblies ordinarily (as it is well known) according to the three ancient Creeds, in english, that all present may understand us, we make confession of our faith. And as for the later, which is confession of our manners, there is no kind of so confessing taught and commended unto us, either in the old Testament or new, either to God or man, private or public, but we use it, allow it, and exhort one an other unto it, in far better sort and manner than you do. Yea to go one step further with you, there is no kind of so confessing our faults, by the consent and uniform practice of the ancient father's approved unto us, but therein also both before the receit of the Sacrament, and at other times (as occasion serveth) we are far before you, how short soever we come of you, in allowing your auricular confession, which is the only kind of confession, that you plead here for. For looking first into the scriptures, and then into the ancient fathers, these are the only kinds of so confessing agrees on, & by one consent of them, needful to be practised. First that every one of God's people should by the due meditation daily of his law, so bring all his sins original and actual, small and great, public and secret, to his remembrance, that in truth he may say with David, Psalm fifty one, in respect of them all, in some good measure, I know mine iniquities and my sin is always before me: that so with a contrite heart, hope of God's mercy, and purpose of amendment, he may confess them unto God, both privately and publicly, generally and particularly also, upon just occasions we all, with the Scriptures and fathers allow, teach and practise. For it is well known in respect of this kind of confession of sins, we teach with Solomon, proverb. the twenty eightth, he that hideth his sins he shall not prosper, but he that confesseth them and forsaketh them, shall have mercy. And therefore beside our often confessing our sins unto God against ourselves in private, in all our ordinary prayers either at home in our families, or in public, in our assemblies and congregations, especially before the receiving of the sacrament, we make humble confession of all our sins and unworthiness, generally unto God. Thus did David Psalm thirty two and fifty one, thus did Daniel, Daniel the ninth, and Ezra: Ezra the ninth: yea thus did the publican Luke the eighteenth, they that were baptised of john in jordan, Matthew the third, and the believers that we read of Acts the nineteenth, vers. eighteenth and nineteenth, confess their sins before God. This we count a necessary fruit of repentance, a good means to humble us in the presence of God, and a way to advance both the justice and mercy of our God. And to this, we know both the Scriptures and fathers all with one consent exhort us, but especially amongst the fathers, Chrysostome is earnest to persuade this kind of confession of sins to God, above all other, as it is to be seen in him, upon the fifty Psalm, hom. 2; upon Matthew, hom. 3; upon Genesis hom. twenty; and upon the twelfth of the Hebrues hom. the thirty one; and else where often in his works. As for particularly confessing of our sins unto God in the presence of the congregation, (as I said before) also, upon just and due occasion, that is urged, taught and practised amongst us. But than it is, but when one falleth into some such notorious and great sin, publicly known to the offence of the Church, for the which he deserveth to be excommunicated. And this is either voluntarily yielded unto, and done by the party that hath so offended, to show the better his repentance: or it is by authority imposed upon such, for the terror of others, and satisfaction of the congregation offended. And hereof in Scripture we have example. For achan's sin that so troubled the congregation, once being known and so public, by josua he is commanded to give glory to God, and so before josua and the people, he confesseth his sin at the appointment of josua: josua the seventh: it seemeth likewise that the incestuous Corinth did, driven thereunto by the authority and force of that censure that Paul and that Church laid upon him 1. Corinthians. 5. and 2. Epist. second and seventh Chapters. And at the rebuke of Samuel the people particulerlie confessed their sin in desiring a king. 1. Samuel and twelfth, and at the rebuke of Ezra we read also voluntarily they came, that had contrary to the law of God married strange wives, and publicly confessed their sins and amended that fault. Ezra the tenth: of such examples of particular public confessing of notorious known faults, the ecclesiastical stories are full: whereof some yielded thereunto voluntarily, who were always best liked of, and others by order of ecclesiastical censures were brought thereunto. And for this kind of public confessing of our sins to God also, it cannot be denied, but herein we are far beyond you, in conforming ourselves therein far more than you, to the ancient presidenes thereof, found both in Scripture and other antiquity. Indeed I must needs confess, that I find in the writings of the fathers, especially in Cyprian, sermone de lapsis, in Tertullian de paenitentiâ, and in Origen upon the thirty seven Psalm, that they counted it a commendable thing, and an argument of greater fear of God and love, if men would not only thus confess their notorious publicly known sins, but also their secret notorious sins, yea then very purposes only to have committed such sins. But withal I find that they saw such inconveniences to arise hereof, that first they counseled such therein to be directed first, by some godly discreet minister, when they should so do and when not: and secondly are long they were driven to think it needful, for the proventing of some inconveniences, only to enjoin them some public punishment, concealing the particularity of such their sins: and thirdly I find, the by Leo his time, this was thought to much also. For he in his seventy eight Epistle, and as he is alleged by Gratian de paenit. Distinct. 1. Cap. Quamuis. showeth his flat mislike thereof, determining it to be far better, that the confession be made only to the minister. But in the Greek Church long before Leo his time (as it appeareth in Zozomen libro. 9 cap. 35. historiae tripart) this publishing of sins by public confession, or by enduring of some enjoined punishment publicly, was given over and one appointed in Constantinople to hear the confessions of such as came unto him: which order also, as it there appeareth was by Nectarius bishop there, caused to be given over, by occasion that a noble woman confessed, that she had lain with a Deacon there, in the Church, whiles she was doing there the things that her confessor had enjoined her. So that to go on, by these and other such places more in the fathers, I find, that secret confession of sins to a minister indeed is ancient, and also I must needs confess, I find, the fathers often exhorting-men so to confess their sins; but yet then (good Christian reader) thou must understand, that it was ●either used nor urged, but in certain cases, as when otherwise the party could not tell how to comfort himself under the burden of his sin, or to get out of the snares and fetters thereof. It was neither taught nor urged then as an ordinance of God to be kept under pain of damnation, as it is in the Church of Rome, neither yet were they urged to make such an exact enumeration of all their sins, and the circumstances thereof; as that Synagogue now teacheth. For than durst not Nectarius (as is aforesaid) have abrogated that order, and have thence forth left every one when he communicated, judicio conscientiae suae (as Zozomen there plainly affirms he did) neither before that could one confessor have served for all the Christians in that great and famous City, where I read in justinian's time, there were sixty ministers. But this is the plain truth, it was used and exhorted unto, as a good profitable order to be used so long, and so far forth: as they saw it needful, and a furtherance to virtue and godliness. And this is certain, the fathers by Albine here cited for auricular confession, speak only either for public confession, of publicly known notorious sins, before the receipt of the sacrament: or else only to persuade men, when they feel themselves sick of sin, and grieved with the burden thereof in conscience, then to confess such their sins unto some godly discreet minister, that hath both skill and will to comfort their distressed souls. In which case and manner we allow and like aswell as they, that men should so do, and it is a thing much used and practised amongst us. There is lastly a confession of sin of one brother or Christian, to an other whom he hath offended, to breed reconciliation again betwixt the parties, taught by Christ, Matthew the fift, and eighteenth Chapters, Luke the seventeenth and james the fifth: allowed both by scriptures and fathers with one consent: and this before the receipt of the sacrament, and at all other times we teach and use as very necessary. Other confessions than these we neither find taught nor practised in the old Testament nor new, nor yet urged by any of the ancient fathers you name, either in the places by you remembered, or else where; and therefore you have but been abused, and now seek by the sound of their names to abuse others, whiles you would make men believe, because they speak of some of these kinds of confessing of sins or other, in these places, that therefore they speak for your Lenten shrift, or auricular confession, which was not so much as once thought of by any of them, nor for many hundredth years after the latest of them, by any other writer of credit. The question indeed betwixt you and us then in this point is not, whither sins be to be confessed at all before we receive. For ye see most willingly we confess sundry ways they may and aught: but this is it, whither such particular and special confession of all our sins and the circumstances thereof, that we can possibly by due premeditation had thereof remember, in secret to a Priest, be by God's ordinance absolutely necessary to remission of sins, for all of both sexes once in the year at the least or no. We hold the negative, and you the affirmative. That sins have been, and may again be in secret confessed to such as be faithful ministers, and that the so doing some time, is very good and profitable, we deny not, you see: but either to imagine such a necessity as you teach thereof, or to bind to such a full enumeration of all at any time, are the things we say which you can never prove, either by Scripture or father. For your own Gratian, brings sundry authorities before that Lateran council, when first this your opinion of the absolute necessity thereof, to salvation was agreed upon (as you may read in him de paenitentiâ Distinct. 1.) some for the necessity, and some to the contrary thereof, and in the end Cap. Quamuis: concludeth thus: to which of these opinions one should rather stick, I leave to the reader's judgement, for both parts (sayeth he) hath astipulatores sapientes & religiosos viros, that is, favourers, men that are both wise and religious: and Panormitan a great Doctor of yours disputeth the matter, that your confession is not by God's law but by man's. And Chrysostome that succeeded Nectarius, so liked his predecessors act, of abrogating the order of secret confession to the confessor, that he in his fourth sermon of Lazarus saith: Cave homini dixeris peccata, ne tibi opprobret etc. that is, take heed that thou tell not thy sins to man, lest he upbraid thee with them, neither confess them to thy fellow servant, that he may publish them, but confess them to God the Lord: and the like he writeth hom. 31, upon the 12 of the Hebrues, and upon the fiftieth Psalm (as he counteth) and else where often in his works. And as for your special and particular enumeration of all sins, and their circumstances that possibly can be remembered, Beatus Rhenanus, a friend otherwise of yours, in his notes upon tertullian's book of repentance, reporteth, how that even for the vexation and torment of consciences that that bread, one Geilerius a Carthusian monk, wrote a book, which he entitled de morbo confessionis, of the sickness of confession, against the morosity & scrupulosity, brought in by Thomas and Scotus and other schoolmen: of whose mind for that point, Beatus Rhenanus showeth himself to be. And howsoever a number of your Priests, by their fruits have made it appear, that of all other they would be loath that young women should not come to auricular confession unto them, yet I can tell you, Basil in his no question thinketh it not very decent, that such should come alone, but rather adviseth that the younger by the grave elder women should make their state known, that by them they may receive comfort or direction what to do: as they shall need.  
But yet, because I would be loath to omit any thing either to cause you (Master Albine) to think that you have said or alleged any thing of weight to justify this your kind of confession withal, or to cause the reader to suspect, that these fathers, whose names you have brought us for this purpose, in these places, say more directly for you, than they do: let us particularly examine your quotations, always remembering the state of the question, as it is in this point betwixt us. Your first man is Cyprian in his fift sermon de lapsis: wherein his purpose was to persuade them, that had either grievously fallen from Christianity to idolatry, or that had but a secret purpose for the safety of themselves so to do, effectually to repent thereof, in pursuit of which his purpose in the end he cometh to that (which it seemeth you aim at) to note it as an argument of greater faith and better fear in such that will (though they have but thought so to fall) yet sorrowfully and plainly confess the same before the lords Priests, and so making exoniologesin, that is, public confession of their conscience show forth the burden of their mind, seeking holesone physic, though, for their small wounds in comparison: and therefore a little after, he there earnestly exhorteth every such offender, in purpose or performance, to confess their fault therein whiles they be here, whiles their confession and repentance may be acceptable with the Lord. Which place serveth well to prove, that then of such notorious faults there was used and looked for public and sorrowful confession. But what is this to the enumeration of all sins remembered in secret in the ear of a Priest? Sure I am, in that sermon before he came to these words, contrary to your doctrine and practice in this very point, he teacheth, that veniam peccatis quae in ipsum commissa sunt, solus potest ille largiri, qui peccata nostra portavit etc. that is, he only can give us pardon for our sins, that bore our sins etc. adding straight, man cannot be greater than God, neither can he being a servant, by his indulgence, remit or forgive that, which is grievously committed against God, lest so to him that is fallen this fault come unto his other, that he forget that it was said long ago Hier. 17. cursed is that man that hath his trust in man. And therefore both immediately and thorough that sermon, he is earnest to move them that were fallen, to fly to God in prayer, in weeping, and mourning. Now indeed both for their better direction to turn unto the Lord effectually, and for the further declaration and testification of their repentance to be unfeigned, he would have confession of such their falls to be made with all sorrowfulness before the Lords Priests. Let this doctrine therefore of his only be received, and your auricular confession will come short home. For if none but such that have so fallen as he there speaks of, should confess such their falls: and that only to that end that he teacheth, without all opinion when they have done, that any can absolve them but God, your confessors and ghostly fathers (as you term them) might be set a begging for any living they could get by hearing of confessions. The next you allege is Origen upon the 37. Psalm, and in his 2. Hom. upon Leviticus: wherein indeed he counseleth those that have fallen into any grievous sin, though secret, yet to seek out some discreet and skilful Physician, to open their disease and distress of mind unto that according to his counsel and advise they may do: either in publicly confessing of them, or otherwise in repenting of them; and this is the most that can be made of any thing fated by Origen, in these two places: but this his counsel may be followed thoroughly, and yet you come very short of proving the necessity, by god's law of your auricular confession, or special and precise enumeration of all the sins and circumstances thereof in the ear of a Priest. The physic that they fought at the priests hands in these cases, was direction how to repent, and to recover comfort under the burden of their sins, by the means of such comfortable doctrine and counsel, that he should give them out of the book of God: and the thing that you seek for at their hands is absolution, to be pronounced by them unto you for your so confessing. So that neither for matter to be confessed, nor for the end thereof, have you any warrant and countenance from them. After Origen, Augustine's 2. book de visitatione infirmorum is produced, in which book, the author threateneth damnation to such as having sinned, shunned the judgement of men, & yet took not occasion, by the consideration of God's judgement, which they could not shun, to repent and amend: but if they judged and amended themselves, he doth not so. Allen will not stand to it, that those books were Augustine's, writing of this matter. And Erasmus censure thereof was, that it is sermo locutulei, nec docti, nec diserti, that is, it is the speech of some prattler, neither learned nor eloquent: yea he addeth what forehead or mind had they, that thrust upon us, such writings under the name of Augustine. And the divines of Louvain say flatly, it was none of his, & therefore with far more credit to your cause might you have let this testimony alone, and never have mentioned it. But whosoever were the author thereof, no more can be grounded thereupon, but that be thought it good, to further the repentance of the party, that he should confess his sin, that he had fallen into and offended God's Church withal, to the minister, that by him he might be dealt withal by correption, admonition, or consolation, as he saw good. And the edge of his speech is not simply against such as did refuse to confess their sins to God's ministers, but only against such, as refusing so to do, did not repent, for he saith si ea confiteri aut emendare noluerint, and again, si in malo permanserint, that is, if they will not confess them, nor amend, and if they continue in evil. Besides, if the words in the place quoted by you, be well marked, it will thereby sufficiently appear, in that there were then so many reasons that stayed men (as there by that authors words, it seemeth there were) from confessing to the priests, that it was not then thought, that so to confess sins, was so necessary as you would now pretend yours to be. If it had been either thought to be simply necessary by God's law, or it then had been thought and known to be a set law of the Church, to confess sins in secret to the ministers, why have not you, nor yet any of your side, brought us any ancient doctor, that ever used either of these reasons to persuade men unto it. Cyril in his 12. book upon joh. cap. 56. is the fourth man you cite for this purpose, which place if you had ever read, you should have found him to set down this first, as a most sure principle, that only God is he, that must lose a man from his sins, for to whom else (saith he) shall it be lawful to deliver transgressors of the law, but unto the author of the Law himself? Which position if it were received, there would be small hast made to your ear shrift. But then indeed it followeth in him, how then did Christ give this divine power to his Apostles? Whereunto his answer is, that he gave it them because he gave them the holy ghost, & because the holy ghost by them forgave sins: which he showeth the holy ghost did, by using their ministry, to baptise men and to bring them to repentance, by rebuking of sinners, and by showing them favour again, as Paul dealt with the man of Corinth. So that you see his doctrine is there, that men come to have their sins forgiven them, by the holy ghosts using our ministry effectually to bring men to repentance: where to make auricular confession to men of all their sins is not reckoned up as any means whereby in the Apostles, or by the Apostles, the holy ghost forgave any their sins, but to preach the word, to minister the Sacraments, and to use the censures of the Church, in due season are noted to be the means. He sendeth us there, you see, to the example of Paul's dealing with the man of Corinth, of whose repentance and receiving again into God's Church, and so to a lively hope of the forgiveness of his sins we read, but that either Paul or any other minister had him before them to bring him to this, by auricular confession, we neither read nor can believe, and therefore Cyril is rather quite against you, than any thing for you in this point, in that place. Now last of all, is Hierom upon the tenth of Ecclesiastes, where all that he saith is this, if the Serpent the Devil privily bite any and infect him (none being privy thereunto) with the poison of sin, if he that is strucken hold his peace and repent not, nor will confess his wound to his brother or master, the master that hath a tongue to cure him, easily cannot profit him: who of us deny this, that he that will neither speak and repent, nor thus by confession seek for better physic at the hands of the spiritual physician, than he can give himself, cannot easily be profited by such a physician? Yea that more is, we say and hold, that he that will neither repent betwixt God and himself, nor yet seek to those to show his estate, that are appointed to teach him how to repent, is in a most fearful case. But yet again we say, that they, that in such secret sins, whereof Hierom plainly speaketh, will with David acknowledge their sin unto God, and not hide their iniquity. Psalm. 32. but forsake it, they shall have mercy, Proverb. 28. though they never bewray those their sins to any Priest or minister. Neither hath Hierom, nor any other of these fathers, in any of these places, said any thing to the contrary. What are you therefore the nearer, for any thing that they have said, to prove the necessity of universal and special enumeration of all sins that can be remembered, with all the circumstances thereof, in the ear of a Priest, though otherwise never so well confessed to God and repent of. Yea what have any of them spoken in any of these places, either to prove the necessity or universality of your kind of confession, which are the things you should have proved by them, or else you prove nothing in question, or to the purpose? For let confession of sins unto them be free, as it was in their times, and in such cases, as men cannot otherwise so well, get ease, remedy and comfort against their sins, we are very well contented with them, to persuade men, that it is a very good and profitable way for them, in sickness and in health, to confess unto some discreet minister or ministers, what sins they be that so trouble them, that so advise by them, may be ministered unto them accordingly. And this is the utmost that any of these places can have, so much as any show to help you unto: which is as far from yours, as chalk is from cheese, you having made it, as you have, a matter of absolute necessity, and having stretched it to such a full special recital of all, and that by all persons and sexes at an appointed time of the year, as you have also. But enough of this matter, now therefore let us go on and see, whither you have any better hold in the fathers, for the other two points behind.  
The next is, praying to Saints in paradise, to help us with their prayers. For the which you allege only the names of four, Origen, Chrysostome, Augustine, and Hierom: of which there is not one indeed, that in any of his undoubted & known works to be his, that so much as mentioneth praying unto them. For whereas you here have quoted us three places of Origen, for this your purpose, the two later, I cannot think were his. As for the last out of his 8. book of Ecclesiast. there are no such books fathered upon him, either in any of his Tomes, that I ever yet could see, nor yet attributed unto him by Tritenhemius, who reckoneth up all that he was acquainted withal of his. And as for that, you allege out of his second book of job, I grant whosoever was author of those tracts, he concludeth the second tract with a gross popish prayer to job. But certain it is, those tracts or books were never origen's, nor that prayer of his making or liking. My reasons are these, first, the author thereof showeth himself an Arrian in the first tract, Erasmus hath observed, that these of job, were never but in latin, whereas he wrote all his in Greek: and lastly, because he himself (if that prayer were his) should be contrary to himself. For against Celsus lib. 8. (which books are his undoubtedly) he answering the arguments of Celsus: that it cannot offend the high God, if the inferior Gods (whom Celsus called daemons) being his friends, be worshipped with invocation, to provoke them to solicit men's causes with the high God (which argument that heathen wretch there countenanceth with the fashion in Princes Courts, to solicit the Prince, by such as are about him, even for all the world, as you use to do, your praying to Saints) telleth him, that one God is to be prayed unto in the name of Christ jesus. And as for the Saints and Angels (saith he) though they be God's friends, yet only God is to be pleased: and please him, and then also ye please these, pag. 760. and 774. Now in the other place, which is the first you cite, namely out of his 3. Homily upon the Canticles, all that he saith, savouring any whit for this your purpose, is this, that he saith, it is not inconvenient to say, they pray for us: whereof likewise, cap. 13. upon josua, and upon the Epistle to the Romans he speaketh doubtfully and stammeringly, as one not fully resolved that it was so, and therefore confidently to be advouched and taught: which I think was the sowing of some seed towards this opinion of yours. But who is so simple, but he may see, that though this were granted to be an undoubted and certain thing, that they pray for us, yet thereupon it followeth not, that we here must, or may pray unto them? And that Origen himself never gathered so thereupon, it may appear sufficiently by his foresaid answer to Celsus. But howsoever, it is known well enough, that Origen was not thought, of the ancient fathers themselves an author of the credit, that whatsoever he taught or thought, ought straight to be received as true and sound. For it appears plainly in Epiphanius, Tom. 2. haeresi 64. and in his epistle to john of Jerusalem, that his opinion of him was, that he was not sound in doctrine, and Hierom ad Oceanum saith flatly of him thus, I have praised Origen as an interpreter, but not as a teacher, his wit, not faith: and further he saith of him, Believe me that have experience, his doctrines are poisoned, disagreeing from the scriptures, offering violence unto them. And Eusebius out of Aegesippus lib. 3. cap. 32. noteth, that unto those times (about which he began to flourish) the Church remained a pure and undefiled Virgin, but then errors as though they had conspired so to do, burst into the Church, as into an empty house, with naked and bare face and head. But yet for any thing that either you have noted out of Origen, or that I can espy elsewhere in any of his undoubted writings, for this matter, he can be charged no further, but for setting abroach and a foot this question, whither the Saints prayed for us or no? Whereupon shortly after, and by observing that sundry miracles were done, men praying unto God by the tombs of martyrs, it began more strongly to be thought, that the souls of such in heaven, did much with God for men here in earth, in so much that thereupon it grew to be an use, to go unto martyrs in prison, to request their prayers, when they were departed to God. So that by Cyprians time, which was not long after, these things began, for he died Anno Dom. 249. (as it appeareth in his lib. 3. epist. epist. 18. & lib. 1. epist. 1.) it was taken for so resolute a truth of him, that they could and would remember their old friends here, that he in these places use there exhortations to the faithful brethren alive, that in any ease they would remember out another, when any of them were dead. But yet for all this, find I not, that in any of these times, or long after, any teacher allowed and of credit in God's Church, was so bold, as therefore either to pray unto them when they were dead, or to teach others so to do. And yet you confidently here further send us to Chrysostom's 8. homily upon the epistle to the Ephesians, to Augustine's to book & cap. 21. against Faustinus (you say, but you should have said Faustus) and to S. Hier. against Vigilantius, there to read, prayer unto them, by them taught and justified. I wonder that you were not ashamed thus shamefully first to be abused yourself, and then thus to seek to abuse your Reader. For let him read, and read again and again, all these places, and I assure him he shall not find one word or syllable uttered in any of them in the allowance of praying unto them. In the first place, Chrysostome according to his manner, doth solace himself much about Paul's chain and imprisonment, but not a word is there uttered by him of praying, either unto Paul or to any other Saint, nor yet of their praying for us. And in Augustine's twenty one Chapter of his twenty book against Faustus (if you had taken the pains to read the Chapter) you should not only have found no mention at all there of praying unto them, but very much there set down by him directly against your fashions in honouring of them. For there first, he flatly condemneth as idolatrous, dedicating altars unto them, offering sacrifices unto them, and their shrines, and worshipping of them with any divine honour, & showeth that such as any of these ways honour them, are either by sound doctrine reproved, that so they may amend, or shunned: which are most notoriously practised by you, in dedicating Churches and Chapels unto them, calling them by their names, in running a pilgrimage not only to their relics, but to their pictures, and there offering before them what you think good, and most grossly in praying unto them, which if it be not a special point of divine honour, nothing can be. And then he showeth what honour it is, that is to be given them and no other, namely, the honour of love and society, as we honour therewith, holy men here alive (though then, therewith so much the more devoutly, as their state is more blessed) and the keeping of their memories (to provoke the better others to imitate them) with religious solemnity: and else where he seemeth to like very well that they should be honourably both thought of and spoken of, that they ought decently to be buried, and have their tombs and sepulchres kept and preserved, and that it was lawful thereby, to pray unto God for such things as were lawful, & that men stood is need of: and lastly, the furthest that ever he went either in this place or any where else was this, that he thought some good came by their prayers, to such as thus honoured them, or rather GOD in them. And further than thus never went Hierom against Vigilantius. So that all this while, we cannot find so much as praying unto Saints, either in Origen indeed, or in Chrysost, Augustine, or Hierom, once mentioned in these places you quote: that they pray for us, and that their prayers may do us some good, is the most we find in any of them: which though it were granted you, yet thereupon it followeth not, that we are to pray to them, as I have said. For if that be a part of their duty, by God looked for at their hands, such is their state of perfection there, that we may be sure that they need not (as men here subject unto infirmities do) by us to be put in remembrance of their duty. And again, seeing we have neither commandment in God's book to direct us, example to lead us, nor promise to encourage us to pray unto them there, especially prayer being, as it is, a special spiritual worship, for the making whereof unto God only in his word, we have all these three, whatsoever they do or can do for us, we dare not without warrant from God, yea contrary to the direction that we have from him in this point, take this honour of praying to him alone, from him, to give it to them. Yea we cannot but see, these things considered, that if we should, therein we should neither honour them nor GOD aright, and that in very deed our doing so, could not be obedience to GOD, but disobedience, not proceed of faith, but rather of lack of faith in him, and so would be both a dishonour of GOD, and then also indeed we find, that GOD hath said unto us flatly, Call upon me in the day of trouble, so will I deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. Psalm 50. And that he is a Lord so jealous of his own glory, that he will not give it to another, he hath plainly taught us, Esaie 42. And therefore seeing Christ (of whom when he should come, the very woman of Samaria had learned, that he should teach us all things. john. 4.) teaching his Disciples to pray (Matth. 6. and Luke 11.) hath taught them no otherwise to pray, but to him, to whom when they prayed, they might first say, Our father which art in heaven, & then concluding their praies, add, for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever & ever: we being sure, that without blasphemy we can neither begin nor end our prayers thus, we dare not direct our prayers to any Saint or Angel, but only to God. We are sure he is able both to hear our prayers, and to grant our requests, because he is almighty: and that he is willing so to do, we have assurance, as long as we ask according to his will: the first of john and the fift, because he is merciful and true, and faithful in all his promises. And therefore we think it is a sure way, to run to him, and to trust to him, in all our needs and necessities. If we would have an advocate either of mediation or intercession unto him, we have one for all, even jesus our Lord and saviour. For as Paul first teacheth us, there is but one God, so likewise in the same verse he assureth us, there is but one mediator between God & man, which is the man Christ jesus. 1. Tim. 2. and john joining with him in his first epistle & second Chapter, pointeth him only unto us to be our advocate with the father. And he being the ¹ fountain of all grace & mercy, the ² author and finisher of our faith, ³ the door of the sheepfold, ⁴ the way, truth & life, his ⁵ name being the only name whereby cometh salvation, ⁶ and he being he, but by whom (he himself hath told us) none cometh unto the father (1 john. 1. vers. 14. & Colos. 1.19. ² Heb. 12.2. ³ john 10.7. ⁴ john. 14. vers. 6. ⁵ Act. 4 12. ⁶ john 14.6.) especially seeing he hath alured all that are heavy loaden and weary to come unto him, Mat. 11.28. he being of that property that we know he is, not to break a broken reed, nor to quench the smoking flax, Esa. 42. ve. 3. and yet able perfectly to save those that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them He. 7.25. We know and are sure we should do him the greatest wrong that may be, considering also, that he hath upon his word assured us, that whatsoever we ask the father in his name believing we shall obtain it, Mat. 21, 22. and john 14.13. If we should leave him at all, one so able and willing every way to serve our turn alone, to run unto any Saint or Angel of his. And therefore as we dare make our prayers to none but unto God, so dare we use no other mediator or advocate unto him, but only jesus Christ our Lord and saviour. We are sure it savoureth strongly of lack of faith in us in him, if not of flat Antichristian blasphemy, once but to imagine, that any be Saint or she Saint in heaven, or Angel, will be readier to take compassion of us, or that we may be bolder to use any of their intercessions to God, then his. For in all things he became like unto us his brethren, that he might be merciful, and a faithful high Priest in things concerning God, that he might make reconciliation for the sins of the people, for in that he suffered and was tempted, he is able to secure them that are tempted Heb. 2.17.18. For we have not a high Priest which cannot be touched, with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all things in like sort tempted, yet without sin, let us therefore go boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace (through him) in time of need, Heb. 4.15.16. And let us take heed in this case, whiles we follow your example, in leaving him and running to Saints, to pray for us, we commit not the two evils, that the prophet jeremy chargeth the people of Israel withal, jer. 2.12. & 13. that is, forsake the living fountain a fountain of living waters, to dig unto ourselves pits, even broken pits that will hold no water. For as then he saith in respect of these two faults, O ye heavens be astonished at this, & be afraid & confounded (saith the Lord) so worthily may we say in respect of this your folly and double sin in this point. For though to lessen somewhat your sin herein, you would seem to plead only for praying unto the Saints in paradise to help you with their prayers; that nothing indeed can help you. For not only for these reasons is even that abominable and unlawful, but certain it is, that you in your practice (as I have showed at large in my answer to your publishers preface) most grossly and Antichristianly, pray unto the Saints themselves, through their merits to procure you the things you sue for. Yea you are gone so far, that according to the multitude of your necessities, the variety of occupations, and the distinctions of regions and countries, you have appointed the Saints to their several offices and limits, therein imitating the idolatrous heathen, who imagining that there were many Gods, thought it good to know every one of their offices, that accordingly they might use them, as August: de civitate Dei, lib. 4. & 22. noteth. And especially as touching the blessed Virgin Mary, under pretence of your love and devotion towards her, you have so forgot your duty & Religion towards her son, that all the titles proper to her son, you have invested her withal, calling her Mediatris, Saluatris, gate of heaven, queen of heaven, and your only hope & refuge: yea you have not stuck, calling upon her, to cry unto her saying, command thy son, use the right of a mother, & so show thyself to have the authority of a mother. And yet if you would confess the truth in this point, you both should and would acknowledge, that you have learned thus to honour her & the other Saints, neither of scripture nor of any ancient father, but of cursed & condemned heretics, whatsoever either you here, or any of your fellows else where pretend to the contrary.  
For Epiphanius writing first against certain heretics called Antidicomarionites lib. 3. Tom. 2. haeres. 78. and next, against others called Colliridians, haeres. 79. of the same book and come: he showeth, how that these heretics exceeded (even as you do) in offering unto Mary, and in honouring and worshipping of her, against whom, he there at large inveigheth bitterly, as against most vile idolaters for the same, telling them, that so to do, was ungodly and wicked, and strange from the preaching of the holy ghost, yea altogether a work of the Devil, and a doctrine of the unclean spirit, for Mary was no God, neither was she given us, saith he, to be adored, though she were a most excellent & honourable Virgin, but (saith he) to forewarnemen, of which kind of too much admiring her, Christ said unto her, woman what have I to do with thee? And a little after in the latter place he saith, Neque Elias adorandus etc. that is, neither is Elias to be adored or prayed unto, though he live, nor john, nor Tecla, nor any other Saint. For the old error shall not overrule us, that we leave the living God, and worship those things that are made by him. For they worshipped and adored the creature, praeter creatorem, besides the creator, & they became fools Rom. 1. For if an Angel will not be adored, how much more will not she that was borne of Anna. And therefore in the end concludeth Mariam nemo adoret, let no man adore Mary, I say not a woman, but a man neither, For this mystery is due to God, than Angels are not capable of this glory etc. And therefore the same Epiphanius lib. 1. heres. 38. writeth against the Caians, for their invocation of Angels. It should seem therefore, that Petrus Gnapheus (who was condemned for an heretic in the 5. general Council, was infected with some of these heresies. For about the year of the lord 470. (as it appeareth in Nicephorus 15. book and 28. Chapter) he was busy in devising and urging, how Mary should in the public liturgy, not only be honourably named, but also called upon & prayed unto. But if we would know the antiquity of these heretics, and of you their scholars, Epiphanius haeres. 79. sendeth us for the original of their pedigree to the woman in jeremies' time, that backed cakes to the Queen of heaven, and powered forth their offerings to other Gods, to provoke the Lord to anger; and therefore he calleth for jeremy to charm & to stay those adorers of Mary, that he wrote so against, that they trouble the world no more. In deed he saith roundly to those idolatrous women in his time, in the person of God, Do they provoke me to anger, saith the Lord, and not themselves to the confusion of their own faces? And so goeth on in denouncing Gods heavy vengeance against them for the same, cap. 2. Hier. And therefore seeing you are so like them in the cause hereof, take heed you be not enforced to be as like them in the punishment. You have heard out of origen's 8. book to Celsus, how like herein you are to that Idolater, both for the matter of your practice and doctrine, and for the reasons you have to confirm the same, and that he there shows flatly, that he thought, that that was not the way to please God, but rather to displease him, to leave him, and to run to his Saints and Angels, to entreat them to be means unto him for them. And Chrysostome also, who is the second man, that here you would make us believe is on your side, to clear himself of all such impiety, de muliere Cananea hom. 12. saith thus. Tell me (o woman) how thou durst being a sinner, go unto Christ? I know what I do, saith she (as he makes her to answer him) See the wisdom of the woman (saith he) she asketh not james, Peter nor john. Yea in another homily of his tom. 5. de profectu Euangelii, he further observeth, that when the Disciples came and spoke for her, he answered, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of Israel; but when she came herself, that then she had her request, so thereby there labouring, and in express words in that homily, to encourage men directly and immediately as plainly as we do, to make their prayers to Christ themselves, and not by advocates. And as for Augustine the third man you name, he hath meetelie well already cleared himself, even in the very place you quote, but to make the matter out of doubt, let us hear him somewhat further to speak for his full purgation in this point. In his fifty five Chapter de vera religione, and in his 22. book and 10. Chapter of the city of God, he plainly writeth, that to build either temple or altar unto Saints or Angels (than which nothing is more common with you) is flatly unlawful, and in the former of these places he saith, that Saints are to be honoured for imitation, but not for religion, adding, that which the highest Angel worshippeth, that must the lowest man worship, and in the other he saith, that they never sacrificed nor built temples to saints. And in the place you cited out of him, he saith, which of the Bishops said, standing at the altar, we offer to thee Peter, or Paul etc. where, & in his 8. book of the city of God, & cap. 27. he utterly condemneth, as unlawful offering of any sacrifice to the Martyrs. And yet more directly against you in his second book against the epistle of Parm. c. 8. he writeth thus, if john should have said, these things wrote I unto you, that you sin not, & if any man sin, ye have me for an advocate with God, and I will entreat him for your sins (as Parmenian in a certain place, saith he, put the Bishop a mediator betwixt the people & God) what good and faithful Christian, saith he, would have suffered him, yea who would have taken him for an Apostle of Christ, and not for a very Antichrist? Ambrose also upon the first to the Romans is as flat against any mediators betwixt God & us, besides Christ jesus, as any of these: yea there he doth as directly confute your ordinary reason, of your getting the better to God by these, as to the Prince by his Nobles, as we; telling you first, that that is under the pretence of humility & reverence to the Prince, to make yourselves to the peril of your salvation, guilty of high treason against him. For it is to give that honour that is due unto the Prince unto his Nobles, thus to leave the creator, to adore the creature: and then further answering you, that your reason holdeth not from Prince's Courts on earth to Gods in heaven, For they are men, saith he, & therefore to them men must so come, because otherwise they know not whom to trust, but with God that knoweth all things, to win his favour, Suffragatore non est opus, sed mente devotâ, there is no need of one to speak for us, but of a devout mind. And therefore he goeth on and saith, that such as yet will adore their fellow servants or creatures, turn the glory of God into the similitude of men, etc. as it followeth in the text. Again howsoever some friend of yours, under the name of Athanasius, hath caused one to speak in your language, saying: make intercession for me, mistress, Lady, Queen of heaven, yet Athanasius indeed, to make it appear how much he abhorred that impiety, in his orations against the Arrians, which all men know and confess were his, first, oratione secundâ saith, Sancti non postulant a creato aliquo etc. that is, the holy servants of God, asked not of a creature to be their helper, Christ therefore whose help they crave is true God: and then again oratione tertiâ, he writeth thus, creatura non adorat creaturam etc. the creature adores not the creature, therefore Christ who is adored is god. These arguments of his had not been good, neither would he ever have made them, if he had thought it lawful to honour and adore Saints as you do, or as you would by fathering the former kind of invocation of Mary upon him, make men believe he did. And indeed Paul taking it for a thing that could not be denied him, Rom. 10. that none might pray unto any, in whom he might not believe, and it being most clear, that the scriptures and all the ancient creeds grounded upon the same, together with the very form of our baptism, allow us only to believe in God the father, God the son, and God the holy ghost, unanswerably thereupon it must needs follow, that it is gross idolatry, to pray unto any other. And so much in plain terms hath Sedulius, above one thousand years ago, most flatly set down upon the first of the Romans, saying, Adorare alium praeter patrem, filium & spiritum sanctum, impietatis crimen est, that is, to adore any, beside the father, the son, & the holy ghost, is an ungodly wickedness. Cyril also ad reginas de rectâ fide, etc. sendeth them that would obtain their prayers, to God the father, in the name only of jesus Christ, because, solus naturâ & verè est Deus, he only is by nature and in truth God: & contra julianum lib. 6. he flatly saith, the holy martyrs, neither do we say to be Gods, neue adorare consuevimus, neither do we use to worship them. Yea Remigius, who lived well nigh 900. years after Christ, showeth upon the 96. Psalm, that not only images are not to be adored, but he saith plainly, no nor an Angel is to be adored, because of that warning of the Angel to the contrary in the apocalypse. To conclude, even Hierom himself, your own fourth and last man, whom I have therefore kept to the last, because many of you think that he is much of your side, against Vigilantius, writing against the said Vigilantius to one Ripacius, cleareth himself to be far from this folly and blasphemy, that you would make him an earnest proctor for. For there he hath (to show his judgement in this case) written thus, non colimus & adoramus, we worship not and adore, I say not the relics of martyrs, but neither sun, moon, Angels, Archangels, Cherubin, Seraphin, nor any name that is named either in this world, or that which is to come (beside the trinity, for so he must be understood) For immediately he addeth this reason, lest we should serve the creature above the creator, who is blessed for ever. We honour (saith he) the relics of the saints, that we may adore him whose martyrs they be. And good reason had all these fathers, thus flatly to set down their minds against you. For you know it is written, Dominum Deum tuum adorabis & illi soli seruies, that is, thou shalt adore the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve. Deut. 6. Matth. 4. and with this text Christ put the Devil to silence, when he would have persuaded him to fall down and worship him: he had nothing to reply against it, I pray GOD you be not grown in this point more obstinate and peevish to withstand the doctrine of this text, and more cunning and subtle to cavil against it, for your own defence, than he was. I know some of you, finding the Scriptures and fathers thus directly to condemn adoration of the Saints (though they maintain still all your practice of praying unto them) yet have not been ashamed to write (as it appears in the censure of Colen printed there one thousand five hundredth sixty) that amongst you it was never so much as heard, that the Saints are to be adored, for adoration is due only to God. Whereas they could not be ignorant that their legends, rosaries, and other their books of devotion, public and private, are full both of the name and thing: did they not know that the whole psalter is turned to the Virgin Mary, and that therein it is written venite adoremus eam, come let us adore her? Howsoever they knew this or no, they could not forget their old saying of the Cross, behold the wood of the Cross whereon the salvation of the world hanged, venite adoremus, come let us adore it. If these will not serve to make them better to remember themselves, let them read their own Antonin. part. 3. Tit. 12. cap. 8. and they shall find him, in plain words to tell them, that the Saints, by the Pope, by his canonizing of them, are set forth unto men, not only as an example of faith and holy life, but also abomnibus adorandi & in necessitatibus invocandi, that is, of all to be adored, and in necessities to be prayed unto. Wherein to say (saith he) that the Pope erred were heretical. But this is like your other common shifts, when you say you use the Saints but as Mediators of intercession, and not of salvation, which only belongs to Christ; and that you: do not give them Latreian, but Douleian, that is, as you expound the words, not divine honour, but an inferior honour, not ask at their hands that they should either give you the good things you would have, or keep from you the evil, that you would not have, the falsehood and vanity whereof I have both in my answer to the preface of your book, and also somewhat in this Chapter already bewrayed. For let any man read over & consider your prayers and practice, and he shall find that you make them mediators of salvation, and not only of intercession, though that only if you did (it being as it is, a special part of the office of Christ's mediatorship, to be the very altar whereupon, and whereby we must acceptably, present these our spiritual sacrifices unto his heavenly father, he being, as he is, of himself alone thoroughly both able & willing fully to execute his own office) you could not excuse & clear yourselves, of being guilty of high treason against Christ. And he should further find, that you give the divinest honour that may be, & that you do directly beg all things even at their hands, that you can beg at Gods. For it is usual with you to sing to Mary: salva eos quite glorificant: save them that glorify thee, that secure the miserable, help the weak, refresh them that mourn: & you say to her, Marry mother of grace, mother of mercy, protect us from the enemy, receive us at the hour of death: & in the psalter now turned & put forth by the devout servant of hers Bonaventure (as some think) you stick not to use all those speeches to her, that in the psalms are used to God himself, and therefore you blush not to say unto her. Have mercy upon me O Lady, according to thy great mercy, & according to the multitude of thy mercies blot out my iniquities. But not only thus have you doubted about Mary, but quite contrary to your own words, when you would use these shifts, you deal with other Saints. For you pray to Basil, that he would look down upon you from above, & change your whole life, and you pray Athanasius to direct the holy people, & S. Cyprian to direct both your speech and life, and who so readeth your speculum exemplonim, your glass of examples, he shall find there, and in such other books of yours, such stories told of things done by this Saint and that, for such as worshipped them, as that thereby it may most clearly appear, that you have no stay nor moderation at all, whatsoever you say, in praying to them.  
Thus than thou mayest see (Christian Reader) for all M. Albines sending of thee to read Origen, Chrysostome, Augustine and Hierom, for the maintenance of his praying to the Saints in Paradise, that not only they have quite forsaken him therein, but that also both Scripture, they and a number of ancient fathers besides, have condemned that their praying unto Saints, for gross idolatry. The most (thou seest) that any of the fathers quoted by him for this, have said, that hath any sound the way, is, that they thought it was not inconvenient to think, that the Saints in heaven, prayed for the Saints alive yet upon the earth, and that thereby they did them some good: which, as I have showed thee, by good reasons, proveth not, that therefore they are to be prayed unto thus of us. But to conclude this matter, even touching this point, I would have thee to understand, that the first brochers hereof, & they of the ancient fathers, that most seemed to be resolved of it, yet spoke thereof, but stammeringly and doubtfully. For thou hast heard Origen only say, that he thought it was not inconvenient to think so, and upon the second Chapter to the Romans, moving that question, whether the souls of the Saints departed, do any thing, and labour for us, as the Angels do, or no? he in conclusion determineth, that if they do, that yet it is amongst God's secrets, and that it is a mystery not to be committed to paper. And Augustine, de curâ agendâ pro mortuis, inclines to the negative, and therefore to that end allegeth, that Esa. 63. Abraham knoweth us not, and Israel hath forgot us. And though Nazianzene seem with Origen and Cyprian to think they do pray for us and procure us good, yet where he shows himself to be most of that mind, as in his oration of Basil, and in his epitaph of his father, he uttereth it not as a resolute truth, whereof he was sure, but avouching it, addeth, as I think, if I be not deceived, or if it be not too much to say so: which argueth, that he was not persuaded and resolved, that it was a plain truth taught in the word, but that only it was thought to be a thing probable and possible: and therefore this must needs be a weak ground to build so massy and huge a building upon, as the popish praying to Saints cometh to. To conclude therefore this point, in this case notably hath Augustine said, when the question is of a thing most obscure, the certain and plain instructions of the divine authority not helping us to decide the matter, let man's presumption stay itself, doing nothing by inclining rather to the one side, then another. De pec. meritis lib. 2. cap. 36. And again, seeing it is evident that they have no ground for it in scripture (which some of the best of themselves confess) with Augustine let us say both of this and that which they would build thereon, of Christ, or of his Church, or of any thing else which appertaineth to faith or life, if we, but as Paul said, if an Angel from heaven should preach unto you, beside that which ye have received, in the scriptures of the law & the gospel, let him be accursed: contra literas Petil. lib. 3. Cap. 6. And so upon these premises boldly let us conclude, and say with him, Non sit nobis religio cultus hominum mortuorum: de verâ religione cap. 55. let it be no part of our religion to worship dead men. For as he there addeth. If they lived godly indeed, they are not now in that mind, that they would have such honours given them of us, but God they would have us worship.  
Now we are come to the last point of your 4, which is praying for the dead: for the which you will us to read two places in Tertullian, one in Cyprian, two in Origen, one in Chrysostome, and three in Augustine: which at your request I having done (though I must needs confess, this your error in some of these hath more countenance and allowance given it then the former had) yet I hope by that I have done with you, you shall have as little cause to brag that all these Doctors teach you your kind of praying for the dead, as any of the former things, that you have alleged any of them for: for some of these your authors in these places you quote, do not so much as mention praying for the dead at all, only they speak of a certain purging pain after this life, & that diversely, some in one sense, some in an other. But I see, in perusing these quotations (that your leisure could afford to set down for this point) & others, that divers of your side, upon deep deliberation & purpose to handle the matter as seriously as they could, have to this end remembered: that (to make a show of great proof when you have very small) any place that in any sense maketh mention of purging after this life, that serveth (you would make your reader believe) not only to prove your feigned purgatory, but also to prove your praying for the dead: and again, any place (in what sense soever) that mentioneth praying for the dead, that must needs prove both purgatory & your manner of praying to relieve souls there. Which, because it is the thing whereby both you are abused, & whereby most fond & yet absurdly, in this case you always seek to abuse your poor simple reader, before I proceed any further to examine your quotations, I must labour somewhat to acquaint him with. First therefore, let him mark what force there is in this kind of arguments: Origen or some other father speaks of some purging pain after this life, ergo of the popish purgatory. Augustine speaketh unconstantly or very doubtfully of a purging pain or place after this life, ergo questionless there is such a third place as the papists imagine, & such purging there is as they teach. And there is such a place, ergo they that be there must and can be relieved there by the prayers of the living: or in some sort the dead are to be remembered in our prayers, ergo they in that place, thereby to be relieved. For these are the very arguments, which are by the maintainers of prayer for the dead and purgatory confusedly jumbled together out of the fathers. Secondly, for the better espying of the weakness of all these arguments, he must understand how variably & uncertainly the fathers have spoken & written of purging after this life, & how far from the popish sense: likewise he must be advertised how divers ways, remembrance may be made & hath been for the dead by the fathers, and yet not in their sense. Concerning the first whereof, because Origen & Augustine are two that Albin hath especially here named, by their mentioning of purging after this life, to prove both the popish purgatory and prayer for the dead, let us but take a view first in what sense they have spoken thereof, & how uncertainly and inconstantly. And to begin with Origen, both because he was the ancienter, & because he was first named, in the very second place here quoted by Albin, he speaketh of purging in the fire of hell, and in the other of purging in such fire, as will consume in them that hold the foundation, their wood, hay, & stubble, that they built thereupon, that so when their souls depart from their bodies, they may go to heaven, which with those vnconsumed they cannot: which consuming fire he saith is God. For his words in the latter place are these. He that despiseth the purifications of the word of God, and doctrine of the gospel, reserveth himself to sorrowful & painful purifications, that the fire of hell in torments may purge him, whom neither the Apostles doctrine, nor word of the gospel hath purged. And in the other (preaching I am sure they will grant to men alive and not to the dead (his words (the better to make than to look whiles they were alive that they carried no wood, hay, nor stubble with them vnconsumed) be these: if after Christ the foundation, thou buildest thereupon not gold, silver, & precious stones only in the mind (if thou hast any such) but also hay, wood & stubble, what wouldst thou be done with thee, when thy soul shall be separated from the body? Whither wilt thou with thy wood, hay, & stubble, enter in to the holy places and so defile the kingdom of God? Or for them tarry without, & for the other lose thy reward, which is not meet neither? What followeth then, but the first for these, fire be given thee to consume them? But God is the consuming fire of these: whereupon a little after he exhorts all men that have any such matter in them, that they would know their own faults & in time amend them. The first place is in his 8. book and 11. chapter upon the Romans, and the other in 12. homily upon Hieremie, even as Albine citeth him. Now who seethe not by this, that the purging place that he speaks of in the second place is hell itself, and that the other is in this life, whiles God's children warned in time, whiles they are here, do let the fire of God's spirit both reveal unto them, and consume in them all their unsuitable building to the foundation, whither it be in religion or manners? what places then were these (unless the papists be grown now to be of opinion, that the partition wall betwixt hell and their purgatory is quite pulled down, and all become very hell, or else that their purgatory is in this life) to allege either for purgatory or prayers for the dead? Further touching origen's fancies about purging after this life, August. de civitate Dei, l. 21. c. 17. saith, that the very devil & his angels after certain grievous and long lasting punishments, shall be freed and delivered from those torments and joined again in society with the holy Angels, as Origen believed. And upon Luke hom. 14. Origen himself saith, I think after the resurrection from the dead, we all shall stand need of a sacrament to cleanse and purge us: for none can arise again without his defilings. And upon the 36. Ps. hom. 3. he writeth that he thought, that it was needful that all should come into the purging fire, though he were Paul or Peter: and of the same mind he seemeth to be upon the Num. hom. 25. which if you understand of any purging fire of tribulation, or of the inward effectual operation of the fire of God's spirit, to lighten, & to purge & consume our dark, sinful and erroneous hearts (for so sometime he and others of the ancient writers speak) then these places make nothing for your purgatory, which is after this life: if otherwise you understand him of some fire to purge after this life, so neither is he any proctor for your purgatory, to the which you send only the middle sort, neither very good nor very bad. A man therefore may well think, that you are near driven for proofs for your purgatory or prayer for the dead, when you run to these, or any such places in Origen, that speaketh thereof so variablie, and not only far from your sense, but sometimes even in your own judgement, aswell as in ours, very heretically. Now as for Augustine, if what he hath written of purgatory be well considered, your arguments from him will prove as weak, as from Origen. For whereas some of you allege him upon the 103. Psal. serm. 3. for purgatory, it is plain, that he there speaketh of that purging by fire, which he supposed would be in the end of the world, when all should be on fire, and the good separated from the bad, which fancy he rather choosed to fall into, then to hold with Origen, that there is any purging in hell. The same Augustine most commonly understandeth that place of S. Paul 1. Cor. 3. of the fire of tribulalation and affliction, wkereby men are tried and purged, as he proveth out of the scripture, in this life, as gold in the furnace. And as for a mean place of purging any betwixt death & the judgement, he writeth sometimes confidently that there is none such, and sometimes he leaveth it in doubt. For in his fifth book Hypognost: against the Pelagians, he acknowledgeth heaven to be the place for the godly, and hellfire for the wicked, but a third place, saith he, we are altogether ignorant of, neither do we find any in the holy scriptures. In like sort de verbis Apostoli, ser. 14. he acknowledgeth these two again, but a middle place he utterly denieth, because there is no mention thereof in the gospel. I know it is answered, that when he saith thus, he setteth himself against the Pelagians third place, which they assigned for infants dying unbaptised. But then yet I reply and say, if he had been resolved of the popish third place purgatory, he would and should have said, there was no fourth place and not no third, if to this it be rejoined, as I know it is by some, that he disputed not there whither there were any more places than two before the last judgement, but whither there were any more than two everlasting receptacles, after that judgement also to continue, and that in that sense only, he was resolute there was but two: how then will they shift that of his de civitate Dei. lib. 13. cap. 8. where dividing all that die into good and bad, immediately upon their death, he saith, that the souls of the Godly separated from their bodies are in rest, and the souls of the other are in pains, whiles the bodies of those rise again to everlasting life, and the others to everlasting pain which is the second death. For here they cannot deny he speaketh of the time & state of souls before the last judgement: and yet here he findeth no third sort or place for them in the mean time, no more then in the other.  
But he was not very constant herein. For in his 21, book of the City of God, cap, 26. he saith, if in this mean time, betwixt death & the judgement, the souls of the departed be said to suffer such a fire, or there only, or there and here, or therefore here and not there, a fire (he saith) of transitory tribulation burning up their worldly smaller faults, I reprove it not, because perhaps it is true. & de fide & operibus cap. 14. he saith likewise, whither in this life only, men suffer these things, or after this life such judgements do follow them (as I think) saith he, this sense of Paul is not against the truth, namely to understand him of the fire of tribulation or trial. And in his Enchiridion cap. 68 he saith, that the fire that the Apostle speaketh of 1. Cor. 3. is the fire of tribulation, through which both kind of builders, there spoken of, must pass: and than such a thing may be after this life, it is not incredible & whither it be so or no, it may be a question. cap. 69. The like he hath of the 8, questions of Dulcitius, in his answer to the first of them: wherein it appeareth that he was very uncertain, whither there were or no any such fire of tribulation, after this life any where, before the last judgement, to purge men of some kind of sins: but what these sins were, that stayed men from going to heaven strait upon their death, whereof after they might get some relief and ease, he saith, it was hard to find, and perilous to define, and as for his own part he confesseth, that though to that time he had laboured to find out what they were, yet he could not, lib. 21. the civit: Dei, Cap. 27. And how dangerous it was and is, to fall into such doubts, we may see in him. For in the 24 Chapter of the same book, it appeareth, that upon this supposition, that there might be some such purging fire, as he sometimes doubted of, he moveth this sound question: whither they shall be saved, whom the day of judgement shall find unpurged with this fire, which yet might have been purged with it, if it had not come so soon? and he resolveth that with an other doubtful imagination, that they suffering for a time some pains shall have mercy, as he thought, & not be condemned to hell, and in this said 20 book of the City of God he hath an opinion cap. 25. that in the last judgement before sentence be pronounced, some shall pass thorough purging pains. And yet in the third question to Dulcitius he determineth it as a flat truth to be believed, that in the last judgement there shall be no delay, but immediately upon the second coming of Christ it shall be, as we are taught Matth. 25. Hereby we see how wattering and inconstant, even famous learned men become, when they once wander without the light of the word, after the discourses and reasonings of the wit of man. How much better had it been for Augustin in these questions to remember the rule, and to have followed that which he gave others in such cases (as I showed before in the conclusion of the former point out of his second book de pecca: meritis & remiss. Cap. 36. Yet in none of these places or else where can I find, that he once dreamt of such a purgatory fire as the papists teach, which should be material, and of the same nature that the fire of hell is, save only that it is not eternal as that. Wherefore I conclude of him as of Origen, these things considered, the arguments are like to be very doughty and strong, that are brought from any mention that Augustine maketh of purgation after this life, either to prove popish purgatory or prayer to relieve the souls of them that be there. And even as I have said of these two, so might I likewise of most of the ancient fathers, from whence they would seem at any time to fetch countenance for this their purpose, they are so variable wavering and inconstant in their speeches, most of them about this matter: but this I hope is and will be sufficient to prove the weakness of Albins' arguments from these two, to justify his praying for the dead, because these two in some of the places quoted by him (when he can get them to come no nearer the point) have in some sort spoken of purging of men after this life in pains.  
Now therefore likewise, I am to show how weak there arguments be, drawn from some mention found, in some of the fathers, of some kind of remembering the dead in prayers. Which easily may be conceived, if we understand, that first there may be an honourable mention or remembrance made of those that are dead in the Lord, without any praying for them at all: to show our thankfulness to God for the good example they left us, both of living holily, & dying Christianly, the better to provoke others, by so remembering of them, to imitate their good example: and lastly so to nourish in ourselves, the hope of a joyful resurrection, and to testify our love and Christian affection towards them so departed: which questionless was all that was done a long time, at the keeping of the memories of their deaths, or at any time else, and of this very well may both Tertullian and Cyprian be understood, in the places here quoted by Albin, as I will show anon. From such a fashion of mentioning the dead in our prayers, every simple man may see, popish praying for them hath no countenance at all. Secondly, we ought to be advertised, that forasmuch as they that are dead in the Lord, have not yet their consummation, nor shall not, before the last day, that in that respect also, for such (of whom we fully are persuaded that they so died, that they have their part in the promiss thereof) prayers may be made by the godly alive very lawfully. And therefore thus we grant the ancient fathers might pray for the dead: and thus we ourselves (as appeareth here in England by the form of prayers appointed to be used at the burial of the dead, refuse not to pray; that we with those brethren and sisters of ours, that depart hence in the Lord, may have our perfect consummation and bliss, at the last day, in the general resurrection. And yet of prayers thus made, for such only, by them or us, neither popish praying for the dead, nor purgatory have any ground. Lastly it is evident, that many of the ancient fathers of abundance of love towards their friends departed, whose souls they were fully persuaded were in rest, and in joy and felicity with the Lord in heaven (as they show even in the very places when their prayers for them are set down) prayed yet unto God for them. Thus prayed Nazianzen for his brother Caesarius, oratione septima, Ambrose for Valentian. de obitu Valentiniani. And for Theodosius. de obitu eius. and Augustine for his mother lib. confess. 9 Cap. 13. Yea (as William of Westminster reports in his story) thus Charles the great about 800. years after Christ, wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta, to desire him that prayers might be made for Pope Adrian, nullam habentes dubitationem beatam illius animam esse in requie, sed ut fidem & dilectionem ostendamus in amicum nobis charissimum: not doubting (saith he) but that his blessed soul is in rest, but to declare our faith, and love towards our most dear friend. Wherein they did, as if a tender tutor over his pupil, though he know the child's parents of themselves will more carefully and tenderly look to their child, coming home unto them from the university, than ever he, did or could, yet writing unto them, to show his love towards his scholar, should desire them to use him lovingly and kindly. Howsoever it cannot be denied, but that this was somewhat more than needed, and was some occasion of further proceeding, from step, to step, until there were too too plain grounds laid of popish kind of praying for the dead, yet every man most easily may espy that this kind of praying for the dead, can never kindle, either the fire of popish purgatory, or justify their kind of praying to relieve souls there. Indeed it should seem by Aerius his opposing himself against praying for the dead, as it appeareth in Epiphanius he did, some by that time, mistaking these kinds of praying for them, that I have spoken of, and stretching the examples thereof further, than they should (at least as Aerius understood them) took upon them so to pray for the dead, that howsoever a man lived and died, yet after he was gone by the prayers of his friends, it was thought that he should do well enough. Against which kind of praying for them, he inveigheth as against the bane of all godliness and religion, but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted, that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude, or his own only misconstruing the Church's fashion, in remembering of the dead in their prayers or praying for them, he slanderously laid that to the charge of the Church. Epiphanius therefore in answering of him, layeth this down for the ground of all the rest, that those whom the Church prayed for, were with the Lord in rest and joy: which flatly showeth, that the Churches praying for the dead, that he pleads for against Aerius, maketh nothing for the popish praying for them, or for purgatory. But upon this occasion, AErius urging this question, whither the prayers of men alive did profit the dead, and if they did, whither so far, as that thereby they were delivered from all their sins, thereunto Epiphanius (both belike quite to condemn the opinion of the ignorant multitude, & yet loath also to defend that which he could not justify) first answereth only, that the prayers made for them were profitable; & then, that yet not so profitable, as that thereby all their sins were done away: but neither doth he simply and plainly answer, that they were profitable to the dead themselves, nor once take upon him to avouch, that thereby some certain sins, may be put away: but subtly leaving these things thus in suspense, he flieth to other causes and reasons why they are profitable. And the causes and reasons set down by him are these: first, thereby comfortably their friends alive are occasioned, to believe that they that are dead are not perished, but alive with the Lord: secondly, that thereby may be nourished in the that live, this hope, that the souls of them that are so dead, are as pilgrims gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord: and thirdly, that by praying so, even for the best, as for patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, it may be acknowledged that the best were offenders, that so Christ alone may have that pre-eminence to be a man without sin, that so all may see, what need they have of Christ. The very like reasons to these, are yielded by him that beareth the name of Dionysius the Ariopagite, of the solemn prayers and solemnities remembered by him at the burial of the dead, cap. 7. Eccles. Hierarchiae: where, of them that die, he maketh but two sorts, holy and profane, placing the holy company all of them, aswell the imperfecter sort, as the most perfect, in blessed state in their souls, immediately upon their deaths: and the other in woe and eternal misery. And yet, he alloweth, not only, for the former sort thanksgiving, but also prayers to be made unto God, that for Christ's sake, their sins may be forgiven them, for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are alive, as Epiphanius did. So that though in this case it be usual with the Papists, to make great brags of Epiphanius, and this Demus, yet if they be thoroughly looked into, they are more against them, then with them. The like may be said of the rest of the ancient fathers, whom they most make show of, in this point: for howsoever some of them, may seem to come somewhat too near them, in seeming in some sort to imagine, that some good may grow to the departed, towards the easing of them, of some of their sins, by the prayers of the faithful for them, after they be gone hence (as it cannot be denied, but that Chrysostome, Augustine and some others have thought) yet that they either placed all, that they prayed for to have any of their sins forgiven them, in purgatory, or that they thought that souls so tormented there for sins unsatisfied for here, might thereby be freed from their sins not fully pardoned them ere they went hence; they shall never be able to prove. And yet these are the things that they must prove, or else their manner of praying for the dead is left unproved. For with one voice, even they that otherwise seem most to favour them in this point, hold, that there is no purgation or cleansing from sin, but only in the blood of Christ; that here pardon of sins is to be obtained or never; and that after this life ended, there is no bettering or altering the state of the departed, before the last judgement: all which are positions, whereof every one is sufficient, to quench the fire of the Popish purgatory, and to overthrow their end of praying for the dead. For proof whereof let us but consider of these speeches and sayings of theirs, amongst an infinite number of like force uttered by them.  
The author of those tracts of job (commonly fathered of Origen, from whence often they would seem in this case to have great furniture) describing the fashion of the church in his time, saith in the third tract or book: we celebrate not the day of our nativity, seeing it is the entrance into sorrow & temptation, but the day of our death, as the very laying aside of all our sorrows, and the banishing of all temptations, because they die not, but live for ever which seem to die: and therefore, saith he, we keep the memories of the Saints, and of our parents, and friends which die in the faith, as rejoicing for their rest, so begging for ourselves consummation in the faith: and to this end to celebrate the memory of such so departed, we call the poor together, and satisfy them with victuals, in token of our joy & thankfulness for their quietness & rest. He that getteth not forgiveness of his sins here shall not be there, and therefore, saith David, forgive me, that I may be refreshed, before I go hence, and be no more seen (saith Ambrofe de hono mortis cap. 2.) And Cyprian against Demetrian, saith most flatly, when one is gone hence there is no place for repentance, no effect of satisfaction: & de mortalitate, again he saith, what manner of one God findeth thee when he calleth thee, even such an one also will he judge thee. Chrysostome is as flat as Ambrose in these points. For upon the 4. of the Hebrew; hom. 4. he saith, that if we come to the throne of grace now, we shall have grace, & mercy, now is the time of gifts, after of judgement. and in his sermon de Eucharistiâ in Eucaen. there is (saith he) after this life ended no negotiation, this is the time of suffering or striving, that of crowns; this of labour; that of ease, this of sorrow, that of reward: & therefore in the 7. Hom: upon the 2. of the Hebrews, showing a reason of the solemnities used at burials, he saith, that the reason thereof is, that we may glorify God & give him thanks, that hath crowned & taken to himself our brother departed, & freed him from his labours & servitude; are not our Psalms & hymns for this & our singing, omnia ista gaudentium sunt, all these (saith he) are the doings of men that rejoice. & de beato Philogonio, most confidently he writeth, Ego fide jubeo etc. that is, I do pawn my credit, if any depart from his sins with his whole heart, & truly and unfeignedly promise unto God, that he will return no more unto them, that God will require nothing more of him to satisfaction. But to come to Augustin, he in his 80. epistle to Hesichius, saith, in what state soever thy last day findeth thee, in the same will the last day of the world come upon thee: for what manner of one every man dieth, such an one than he shall be judged: and upon the 25. Psa. he plainly wisheth, that only the price of the Lords blood might be sufficient to him for his perfect freedom and deliverance. Herein we are sure they had the scriptures full of their sides. For first they assure us, that the blood of jesus Christ doth cleanse us from all sin. 1. john. 1. and that he so bore our sins in his own body upon the tree, that by his stripes we are healed. 1. Pe. 2. Secondly they teach us, that blessed are they, that die in the Lord, for even thenceforth immediately they rest from their labours, and their works follow them, Apo. 14. And thirdly likewise directly they affirm, that an ill man once dead, there is no more hope for him. Pro. 11. and that therefore we must have oil in our lamps, in a readiness when the bridegroom calleth us, or else we shall be shut out for ever, what stur soever we make to provide oil after, Mat. 25. And lastly in these, upon these grounds all men are urged, whiles the day lasteth, while the acceptable time or day of salvation endureth, whiles the Lord is nigh and may be found, & whiles they have time to work: to embrace the gospel, to seek the Lord, and to do good unto all men, as it is well enough known. And therefore if these fathers, as men, at any time, or any other, either by their example or writing, have in any point, never so little in any kind of sort crossed themselves, & the holy canonical scriptures, in any of these points, either in praying for the dead, or in laying any ground or occasion thereof, we may boldly leave them, & choose rather to cleave unto than in these.  
These things thus premised, let us now proceed to the particular examining of john de Albines quotations, for their kind of prayer for the dead. His first man is Tert. for higher he cannot go to fetch any show of colour for this matter, unless he would run to Apocrypha writings, to philosophers & poets, to heretics, or to the notoriously known sergeant writings of Clement & such like. And out of this Tertullian he allegeth two places, the first out of his book de Monogamiâ, & the other out of his book de coronâ militis, both which were written by him, after he becane a Montanist, as Beatus Rhenanus in his arguments of those two books is enforced to confess, for in the later he mentioneth the new prophecy, thereby understanding Montanus fancies: & in the other he most plainly condemneth second marriage quite contrary to the doctrine of S. Paul as Hierom hath truly noted upon Titus, and therefore both there he condemneth that book as an heretical book, and also in his catalogue of ecclesiastical writers, as a book written against the Church. Albine therefore hath aptlier, than he was aware of, sought out an heretic, in his heretical writings, to be the first man to speak for the patronising of this popish heresy of his. But perhaps he will say, that he learned not of heretics to speak for prayer for the dead. Whereunto I reply, that if ever he wrote any thing therein to serve your turn, he learned it of no better schoolmasters then of such, or of philosophers their ordinary teachers. For as he himself writeth, de prescript. adversus haereticos, as the original of all truth was doctrine received by the Apostles from Christ: so the spring of all error hath been from the devil, by philosophers. And touching this particular, in his book de animâ, he writeth, that the philosophers that held the immortality of the soul (as Pythagoras, Empedocles and Plato) assigned for souls departed, heaven, hell and a third purifying place: and in that book he showeth, that Montanus his master held, that the patriarchs before Christ's coming were in hell, that Abraham's bosom was in hell, or in the lower parts, that only perfect men and martyrs went to heaven straight, and that all small offences must be punished after this life to the uttermost farthing (his paraclet so expounding that of Mat. ca de inf. & vlt: and in that book also he telleth of a woman lying to be buried, that at the prayers of the Priest over her, lifted up her hands etc. whereby it seemeth, that the heretic Montanus, & his paraclet, might be very fit schoolmasters to teach him a great part of your doctrine in this point. Further, that you may see not only by his own testimony, that he might have such school masters as I have said, to teach him herein, somewhat to favour you & to speak of your side: Irenaeus in his first book & 24. chapter testifieth of the heretic Carpocrates, that he was a great admirer of philosophy, insomuch, that to the images he made of Christ and of some of his Apostles, he joined the images of Pythagoras, Plato, and Aristotle, of whom he learned to imagine, that there was a purifying place after this life, and so to prove purgatory out of that place of Matthew, as you heard before Montanus Paraclet did. And the heretics Heracleones, as Augustine writeth of them, used over their dead, oil, balm, water, and invocation in the Hebrew tongue. Hereunto join you Virgil's 6 book of his Aeneidos & lying visions, & you have the right schoolmasters, that have taught you, & all that favour you in this point. But concerning the places in Tertullian, which you quote, we need not thus answer you, for they are not so pregnant for you, as you imagined. For the words you ground on, in the first place are these (spoken by him to the wife to teach her how in this point to behave herself towards her dead husband) & pro animâ eius oret & refrigerium interim adpostulet ei, & in primâ resurrectione consortium, & offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius, that is, let her pray for his soul, and in the mean time desire refreshing for him, and fellowship in the first resurrection, and let her offer always when the year day cometh for his sleeping: which are the words as Beatus Rhenanus confesseth, that he hath so set down, acknowledging that he found it far otherwise, in all examples before. Again, not only this obscurity of tertullian's words, and the uncertainty what they were, disableth this place from being of any force for you to ground upon, but also unless you must have it granted, that every woman's husband, to whom he gave this counsel, was in purgatory, whereof there is no ground at all in his words in that book, but rather the contrary, whereby it should seem that he spoke of such, as were gone before in peace to the Lord: his words, if they were these, prove not your praying to relieve souls there. And the offering that he lastly speaketh of was either the offering of thanks to God for his quiet rest, and sleeping, or an offering or giving of alms to the poor, in token of joy for the same, and to provoke them to be thankful therefore also, as you heard me before note, the fashion was when the tracts of job, fathered upon Origen were written, out of the third tract of the same: and not as you would have it taken, an offering of your propitiatory sacrifice in your mass for his sins. For he saith for his falling a sleep, and not for his sins, and he willeth the woman to offer, and not that she should get the Priest to do it. And in answering of this place, your other is also answered, for there only he saith oblationes pro defunctis, pro natalitiis annuâ die facimus, that is, we offer oblations for the dead, for their birth days, every years day. For in that he expressly saith pro natalitiis, for their birth days, it is evident that he cannot, nor may not be understood, of any other oblation, but of thankfulness and rejoicing. But this offering for their birth days, Beatus Rhenanus upon this place in his notes saith, was heathenish, and afterwards was condemned and abolished by the Nicene council and others. And yet for any thing that these words of Tertullian enforce in this place, he speaketh of no other oblations for the dead, but for their birth days, so that long ago the date and credit of this testimony and fashion was abrogated And last, it is not to be forgotten, that he himself within few lines after these words, speaking of this fashion & of sundry others that there also he had spoken of, plainly confesseth, that these things had no ground in the scriptures, but only by tradition. That which other of your fellows allege to this purpose out of Tertullian in his exhortation to charity, may receive the same answer with these, for it is evident, that book also was written in his Montanisme, for there he is against second marriage as in the first, and so against Paul, Romans. 7. 1. Cor. 7. and with Montanus: and the words are no more pregnant to ground prayer to relieve souls in purgatory, than the former were.  
Now next is Cyprian, who was a bishop in that City, wherein sometimes Tertullian had lived, in him for your prayer for the dead, you would have us read his Epistle ad plebem Furnensem, in his first book. I am sure you mean the ninth Epistle of that book, written, as it appeareth there, ad plebem Furnilanorum, though either you could not or would not (to put your reader to a little more pains to seek it out) tell us so much. But having found it and read it, howsoever you were persuaded of it, we find little or nothing there, that can do you any good, for only there, of a decree made in some African Synod before his time, he groundeth his persuasion to that people, forasmuch as one Victor had contrary to that decree, made one Heminius Faustinus minister, executor of his will and testament, therefore to stay others from daring any more so to violate that decree, to the calling away the ministers from attendance of their ministry; that they should execute that decree against that their brother Victor departed: which was, that for this cause, there should be no offering for him, nor sacrifice for his falling a sleep. For saith he, he is not worthy to be named in the prayer of the Priest, that will so call away the ministers or Priests from the altar: & therefore seeing this is Victor's fault, let there be no oblation with you for his sleeping, nor in his name any deprecation frequented in the Church. Do you think in good earnest (Master Albine) that if Cyprian had thought, that his brother Victor's soul, had been in such pains in purgatory, as you teach are there, and that these were the ordinary means to ease souls there, that for so small a matter as this, the breaking of this positive law (which with you is usually broken) if in your sense, these things were to be understood of oblation, sacrifice and prayer, for the ease of the party so departed, from under the punishment upon him for his sins: that Cyprian either might lawfully, could without too too much cruelty, or would so without all mercy and charity, persuade to deprive a brother departed of these things? You cannot be so without reason, as once to think so. The execution of this Canon against Victor, was but only a note of some disgrace & ignominy laid upon him, the better to make others after to regard that Canon, and not any denying of his soul any thing, so necessary for it, as you would make men believe, your prayers for the dead be. For that had been then, furiously for a trifle to rage against the dead. But alas (master Albine) both you and your fellows are wonderfully deceived, in thinking that Cyprian meant here by oblation, sacrifice and prayer as you do. For questionless, by oblation and sacrifice, he meant but the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, and therefore he said, not pro peccatis eius, for his sins, but pro dormitione eius, for his sleeping, and by prayer, not prayer for to ease him of his sins, but the public and ordinary prayer, wherein then they used to make commemoration or remembrance of the godly brother departed, the better to provoke others thereby to imitate him: which you might perceive by his saying, he deserveth not to be named in the prayer of the Priest. All which you might the better have learned thus to understand, if you had remembered that the same Cyprian in his fourth book of epistles, epist. 5. having spoken of certain famous Martyrs, Celerin, Laurence, and Ignatius, addeth: for these always, you remember, we offer sacrifices as oft as we solemnize the passions and days of the Martyrs, anniversariâ commemoratione, with a yearly commemoration. For I am sure you hold that these were not in purgatory, and that therefore these stood in no need to have an oblation and sacrifice of the mass offered for them, or prayers in your sense to be made for them. Yea how can these otherwise be understood, then of the oblation and sacrifice of thanksgiving, in the memorial or remembering the godly life and constant Christian death of such? And so we neither dislike the practice, of such thankful commemorations of the godly departed now, nor deny that of ancient time, for the comfort and instruction of them that were alive, that it hath been used. And of this offering of the oblation of praise and thanksgiving for the faithful departed, very well may and must that be understood, which usually you allege so much out of the Liturgies, which you father upon Basil and Chrysostome. For you know in offering it, they teach you to offer it to God, for those that are at rest in faith: their elders, their fathers, patriarches, Prophets, Apostles, Evangelists, Martyrs, and for Marry the blessed Virgin herself. For I hope, you think not all these stand in need to be offered & prayed for, to be eased in purgatory. And yet your praying for the dead, & your purgatory are right Hypocrates twins, they must laugh and weep together, they must stand and fall, begin and end both at once. I am sure you have heard of Augustine's saying, Qui orat pro martyr, iniuriam facit martyri, he that prayeth for a martyr, iniureth a martyr. And therefore long after, the council of Bracchar in Spain, mentioneth only a commemoration of the dead that die in the Lord, with Psalms of thanksgiving, which it forbiddeth to be used for those that kill themselves, or for their faults are put to death. can. 34. Indeed in that council, which was in the year of the Lord 630. in the time of Honorius the first (for I speak of the first held there) I find mention in the 39 Canon (which is the last thereof) not only of a commemoration of the dead, but of some offering, when that was, or when the feasts of martyrs in their memories were kept, of money or some other thing for the relief of the needy, where order is taken for the receiving of it, and bestowing of it: which either were the free will offerings of the living, to testify their thankfulness to God, for the good departure of the dead, or bequests and legacies of the dead, to the relief of the poor, & other holy uses, against the staying & detaining whereof, the fourth Council of Carthage, and the second of Vase sharply decreed. And it appeareth in justinus martyrs second apology, that even so long ago, after the communion, there was an oblation of alms given for such uses, but he in neither of his apologies (though therein he show what the form and manner of the Christians serving of GOD then was, of purpose) once remembreth so much as any commemoration then made of the dead in their assemblies. Of such offerings and oblations at the commemorations of the dead. I noted before what the author of the tracts upon job, commonly fathered upon Origen, hath said. Other oblation, sacrifice, or offering, than these two, of thanksgiving and alms, I cannot find in any ancient and sound writer, allowed. The more are you to blame (Master Albine) that thorough the ambiguity of the words, not understood of your simple Reader, will make him believe, that yet, because Cyprian hath these words, that therefore thereby he alloweth of your kind of offerings, oblations, and sacrifice of the ●asse, for the sins of the dead. If there had been a●●●●ch use of the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, why have none of the Apostles or Evangelists made any mention of it? Or neither Christ nor they having spoken one word of any such use of it, what reason is there, that if there aftercommers should, without all warrant from any of them, that we should be leeve them therein? Surely whosoever he be that should, especially also seeing we cannot find, how many kind of sacrifices soever God for diverse occasions in the old testament appointed, that ever he appointed any, or made any mention of any for the dead, we would learn of Chrysostome, even therefore to say unto him, you see into what great absurdities men fall, when they will not follow the Canon of the Scripture. Homil: 58. in Genesin. and with Augustine, though he were an Angel, because of a matter of so great importance, he speaketh without warrant either out of the old testament or new, he would boldly hold him accursed. Contra literas petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. But to avoid this, I know, because in a cause so gainful for you, you will not seem to be altogether destitute of Scripture, the books of the Maccabees, even to help you at a pinch, in this case, in spite of all good antiquity and truth, shall be Canonical Scripture, and judas Machabeus fact 2. Mach. 12. must be urged, not only as a lawful fact, but as a precedent to warrant your offering and sacrificing, to relieve souls in purgatory. And yet in very deed, when you have alleged this fact of his never so much, you shall find your dealing herein, as void of credit out of the Scriptures of God, as before. For first, certain it is, that these books are none of the Canon of the old testament, as you know well enough, Origen apud Eusebium lib. 6. c. 24. Athanasius in Synopsi. Cyril Hierosolymitanus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Nazianzene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hierom. in prologo Galeato, Gregorius magnus libro 19 Cap. 17. upon job, the council of Laodicea, and diverse others, have determined: whose judgements are invincibly confirmed, by the contrariety betwixt the said two books themselves, by the authors craving to be borne withal, and by his seeming to justify, in those books contrary to the Canonical scriptures indeed, sundry things. Secondly, let any man read 1. Mach. 7. &. 12. & the 2.4.3. and 13. and he shall thereby most plainly see, that in those times, whereof those books contain the story, there were wonderful gross corruptions, directly contrary to the law of God, crept in amongst the jews, from the Gentiles, and yet securely practised of them. Thirdly, this is to be considered, that neither josephus writing the whole story of the Maccabees, nor yet the fift Chapter of the first book, where the same story is handled, maketh any mention of this fact of judas. Fourthly, if we look to his fact indeed, as the author setteth it forth in Greek, we shall find, that the truth thereof was and is only this, that he finding two thousand slain, that took upon them of their own heads to fight with the jannites, without commandment of their Captain, of an ambitious mind to get themselves a name, & that under their garments they had things hide consecrated to the Gods of the jannites, every man then seeing that that was the cause they were slain, thereupon first having called his people together, he exhorted them by that example to keep themselves from sin, and to give glory to the Lord for his righteous judgement executed upon them, and to pray that the rest perished not, for that their sin, be like, having in remembrance the story of Achan, josua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done, he made a collection of two thousand drachmas & sent them to Jerusalem, to offer a sin offering, which if he did, to appease the lords wrath that it should not burst out to the hurt of the rest, as it did against the Israelites, at the besiege of Ai, josua the seventh, for the like sin in Achan: as it may be he did, hitherto he did but well, and with warrant from the twenty one of deuteronomy, and seventh of josua: but here he stayed not, but as it appeareth by the authors own words, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, discoursing with himself of the resurrection, he prayed for the dead, and sought to make reconciliation for their sin, that so they might have their part in the resurrection of the godly, for whom very godly he thought, that there was great hope laid up. But if he had remembered, that he had neither commandment, example, nor promise in God's book thus to encourage him to do, and that the Lord had said. You shall not do every one that which seemeth good in his own eyes, but that which I command thee, that only do, thou shalt add nothing thereunto, nor take aught there from. Deut: 12. he should not have followed his own discourse & imagination, thus to have done without all warrant from the word of the Lord. In many places of the old testament, he might have remembered, that of purpose, the solemnity of burials are spoken of, & yet that never there is any mention, either of any such thing commanded there to be done, or remembered to have been done: yea that Tobias the elder (though there be much said of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his history) that yet there is not any mention of any such thing done by him. And it is worth the noting that from the time of judas Machabeus, it cannot be proved by any story after, until now of very late days, that any such thing was by any godly man attempted again. Further yet, how can this serve to breed any credit to popish praying or sacrificing for the dead in purgatory? seeing the papists themselves confess, that there was no purgatory before the coming of Christ: & that they that die in deadly sin (as it appeareth by the story these did) go not at all thither, but straight to hell. Lastly, for any thing I can see in the authors words, thoroughly considered, it may be said, for his credit, that he showeth that judas Machabeus did thus, that he did very well & honestly to think & hope of the resurrection, & very godly to be persuaded that then it should be very well with those that died godly: but that upon these cogitations he did thus for these, he doth not at all justify him, but rather show that therein he followed his own reason and discourse. And this being thus, all the strength of this place is lost. For an historiographer may and doth set down often, aswell the faults, as commendable things of famous men, that they writ of. Wherefore to conclude this point, for all this, it remaineth firm and sound that I said before, they can neither by scripture, nor any sound ancient writer, approve their sacrificing, offering, or praying for the relief of souls in purgatory.  
Wherefore to go on, now we are come to examine Origens testimonies, which are two only here cited for prayer for the dead by Albine, namely his 12 Homily upon jeremy, and his 8. book upon the Romans cap. 11. in which places, let them be read never so often, there shall not be found so much as mention of prayers for the dead indeed in both of them there is some mention of a purging fire, but as I have showed before in the first entrance into this point, when I repeated the words of the author in these places, none at all of the popish purgatory. For in the first, he speaketh of that fire that must consume our hay, wood, and stubble, which, he telleth us, is God, who is a consuming fire of such things, and in the other he speaketh expressly of the fire and torments of hell, wherein, saith he, he that would not be purged by the evangelical and apostolic doctrine, reserveth himself to be purified. Thus thou mayest see (good reader) that which I admonished thee of before, how they prove praying for the dead, by mention of a purging fire: though it be mentioned never so diversly, and far from their sense, as in these two places it is most evident it is, whereby thou mayest see, how, with out all conscience, they seek to abuse thee, with fond reasons and ambiguity of words. Belike, though the Scripture say, in hell there is no redemption, yet Master Albine believes by his alleging the later of these places, Damascenes tale of Gregory's getting Traian's soul out of hell by prayer, and that Saint Francis and others also have done and now can do the like, or at least, that he and his fellows have been fowely deceived, that before now made it a distinct place from hell. In earnest let them take heed, whom they have persuaded hitherto, & do hereafter, that they go but thither, and that they (so they will take order they may be well paid for it) will help them to ease there, and out in the end, that they find not indeed the popish purgatory they dreamt of, in the end to prove nothing else but the fire and torments of hell itself, that Origen speaketh of. But to haste to an end of this point, Chrysostome and Augustine are yet behind, it may be these speak something more directly to the purpose: it cannot be denied they do, but the more a great deal was their weakness and fault, and nevertheless yours even where it was. Chrysostome is alleged only in his third homily upon the epistle to the Philippians, where speaking, as it is evident by his words, of such as die in their sins and infidelity, so that they go to hell, where (saith he) peccata exuere non licet, that is, they cannot put of their sins, he exhorteth their friends alive to mourn bitterly for such, because, they are with the damned all the days of their life, that so the better they may take heed of the like sin, so yet to show their love: and in the end addeth, defleamus istos, iwemꝰ eos pro viribus etc. let us mourn for these, let us to our power help these, let us procure them some help, little indeed, yet let us help them. How & what way? praying for them, let us exhort also others to pray for them, & without ceasing let us give alms for them. Habet res ista nonnihil consolationis, this thing hath some consolation etc. What is this to the great & unspeakable good, that, you fancy, cometh by your prayers and alms giving for the dead? Yea I wonder how you are not ashamed to quote us this place for your praying for the dead, seeing you yourselves (as justly you may) condemn as not only fruitless, but as quite unlawful, all praying and giving of alms, for such as he speaketh of. But you will say, that going on in the same place ere he have done, he goeth further, and saith, that in the celebration of the divine mysteries, it was not in vain decreed of the Apostles, that there should a memory be made of the departed hence, they know that great good would grow utno them hereby: and how can it be, but that all the people and Priests praying and lifting up their hands to heaven, and the reverend sacrament laid there, but that we should pacify God praying for these; but that which we say now, we speak of them that departed hence in the faith. I grant these words there follow, but yet the most that these words prove, is, that he thought the commemoration of the dead was instituted by the Apostles: and that the doing thereof at the celebration of the Lords Supper would be very acceptable unto God, and do them some good. But in all this, if you understand him aright, here is nothing said for your praying for the ease of souls in purgatory. For as before he spoke of those, that were in hell, in the state of damnation, so he speaketh this of those that were in the state of salvation already, with Christ their king in a blessed estate, and that departed hence in sure faith thereof, as his own words entering into this matter and concluding the same make it manifest. For all that he speaketh of, that die, or are dead, he divideth only into these two sorts, & having first taught what is to be done for the wicked, unfaithful & damned ones: then he cometh & showeth thus, what is to be done for the other. And therefore even by your own received doctrine, speaking but of these, you can understand him but of a thankful commemoration of such, in their prayers. But suppose he made an other distribution of the dead, into bad, good, and mean, as you do, and that he spoke these words of the mean in your sense, what reason is there why you should bind us to allow of his opinion in this, and that you yourselves will not allow, neither of that which he taught before to be done for the damned, nor of that which immediately after these words he setteth down of those that die being yet but catechumeni, that is, but learners of the catechism, whom he saith they barred of this comfort and left altogether destitute of all help but of one, that is, that alms might be given in their name, whereby some refreshing might come unto them: whereas you say that Ambrose did well in praying for Gratian, who yet died unbaptized. Yet this you will say is somewhat, that he fathereth the commemoration of the dead that he speaketh of, upon a decree of the Apostles. I grant it is somewhat, & more than you have heard his ancient, Tertullian, hath done, or any other before him, & yet be it somewhat or more, you are neither somewhat, nor any more nearer your purpose than you were in the beginning. But to conclude with him, though he & 20 more such as he, should never so often tell us that it was decreed by the Apostles, that in the celebration of the divine mysteries, there should such memorial or remembrance be made of the dead, they must pardon us if we believe them not. For if they would be believed indeed in so saying, we have learned to say unto them, as Aug. said unto such, as in his time under such colours troubled the Church with their own fancies: legite hoc nobis de lege etc. Read us it then out of the law, the prophets, psalms, gospel, or writings of the Apostles, that we may believe it. De unit: eccles. ca 6. For even of Chrysost. himself we are taught so to reverence these canonical scriptures for their sufficiency, that he that cannot prove that which he saith thereby, but cometh in some other way not granted him, he is a thief, hom. 58. in johan. And therefore he is not to think much, if we refuse to credit him in this, which he can never prove to be as he saith, by any sound proof either out of the scripture or else where. Thus therefore to dismiss him let us see last of all what is brought us out of Augustine to this purpose.  
Out of him three places are cited, the first is out of his 2 book de Genesi, against the Manichees, cap. 20. where there is not a word spoken of praying for the dead: only there (saith he, speaking of such as have not whiles they were here well tilled their field, but let it be overgrown or oppressed with thorns) that such after this life shall either have the purging fire, or eternal pain: by which purging fire what he understandeth, it is hard to guess, he had so many variable opinions thereof, as I have showed before, and therefore hence no good argument can be drawn, to prove, that he allowed the popish purgatory. I am sure they are not so in love with this place, that to prove their purgatory hence, they will now teach that such as he speaketh of shall go thither. For how could he have described the worst sort of men more lively, than he doth those that he speaketh of. For is not he an extreme bad one, that hath so neglected here the field of his mind, that he carrieth it hence men overgrown and oppressed with thorns? Sure such as these, go strait to hell, or else none. In the other two places, it cannot be denied, he both mentions prayer for the dead, and in some sort alloweth thereof, and holdeth thereby good to come to the dead: the places are in his Enchiridion to Laurence cap. 110. and in his book de curâ agendâ pro mortuis. But both in these same places, and else very often in his works (as namely in the 1, 4. and 18. Chapters of the later book, in his 23. sermon de verbis Apostoli, in his 21 book of the City of God cap. 13. and 24. and to Dulcitius quaest. 2, it appeareth, that herein, and hereabout, in his time, there was great question, some, as the common people, stretching the use of prayers for the dead even to the discharging of the worst sort, and some altogether disallowing any kind of good to come thereby: whereupon somewhat too much carried with a desire to appease the common people, he chose the mean betwixt 2 extremities, which he thought in this case the safest: and so, that he seemeth to teach that they were profitable for a mean sort, neither perfectly good nor extreme bad. And that in this question of the determining the availablenes of prayers for the dead, he was both greatly carried, by the sway of the opinions of the multitude, and greatly perplexed to find out, of what sins men might be eased thereby, he himself most plainly showeth de civitate Dei l. 21. c. 24. & 27. in the first hereof disputing such questions thereabout as he did, & in the other confessing that though he had searched much for that matter, yet he could not be satisfied therein: and who so readeth his book de curâ agendâ pro mortuis, he shall find it wonderful full of doubts and questions about this matter; and before I have showed how variable & unconstant he was for the purging fire after this life: what a weak and tottering foundation or ground then is Saint Augustine's authority in this case to build upon? But if he had been never so confident, constant, and resolute herein, seeing he confesseth as he doth, that he hath no warrant for it in the scriptures but the Maccabees, & that he layeth the custom of praying & offering for the dead as the very foundation of his opinion in this point, by his own leave and rules, we may lawfully without offering him any wrong, descent from him herein, as I have showed sundry times before. For in his 112 Epistle, most plainly and honestly he saith, Fellow not so my authority, that therefore thou shouldest think thyself of necessity bound to believe it, because I have said it, and de unitate ecclesiae Cap. 10. we must not (saith he) agree to catholic bishops, if peradventure they be deceived, or hold any thing contrary to the scriptures: the reason is, that (as he saith) contra faustum, l. 11. cap. 5. such men's writings, are to be read, not with necessity of believing, but with liberty of judging. For only to the scriptures without gainsaying (saith he) I own my consent. Epist. 19 ad Hieronimum. This leave and liberty you take in refusing either him or any other of the fathers in a number of points, where you like them not, and why should not we then have leave to do likewise in this, being able, as we are, to prove that herein he went further, then either he had any warrant for out of the canonical scriptures, or out of any unforged and uncounterfeited precedent, for three hundredth years at the least, of any ancient father. But when you have made the most of his speeches and writings you can: you can never without doing of him most gross injury, make him to allow of your kind of sacrificing and offering the body and blood of Christ unto God the father, as a propitiatory sacrifice for the dead. For de fide ad Petrum Diaconum, Cap. 10. most confidently he hath taught, bidding us to hold it most steadfastly and nothing doubt thereof, but that Christ offered that sacrifice to his father himself, and that the holy Catholic Church ceaseth not to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine in faith & charity: which must needs be a sacrifice of thanksgiving and commemoration of the other only propitiatory sacrifice, & not an offering of it again, as you imagin● for quick or dead.  
Thus at last we have viewed and scanned all your evidence (Master Albine) and for any thing we can yet find, unless gain and commodity that cometh rolling in upon you, by the practice of this point of praying for the relief of souls in purgatory, were a more forcible argument to continue your liking thereof, than any thing said and taught, with any constancy by any of these doctors, in any of these places, or any where else, to countenance it withal, we might easily be persuaded, that you would quietly give over standing any longer in such eager defence of it, as you do. But indeed this argument hath proved so sweet, and strong of your side, that until we be able to weaken this, as we have done the rest, that is, to stop the passage of the coming in of gain and commodity unto you this way, we shall never put you to silence in this, howsoever we prevail with you in all other points. This is the argument of arguments, the first and last, middlemost & all, that in truth you have for this, of any weight. And this we cannot deny to such as you be, must needs seem a most notable argument. For to make you in love with it, and even for the sake thereof alone, to hold on your plea in this cause, purgatory hath so picked other men's purses, & filled yours; & so dispossessed others, & possessed you: and praying for souls there, hath so brought in payments to you, & peeled and poled the heirs & friends of the dead, that if you will speak for any thing, surely you will speak & never give over speaking, for this. johannes Angelus, a man of some credit of your side, saith, that the souls that are in purgatory are of the Pope's jurisdiction: & that he, if he would, could at once even empty purgatory: & therefore (as it should seem) by his own right, your Pope Clement the 6. in his time, by his bulls commanded the Angels to deliver thence so many souls, as he thought good. But I pray you, this being thus, why neither did he, nor any before him, being so holy & merciful fathers to their subjects & clients, as you pretend they are, take such compassion of the poor souls there, as of charity and compassion to rid them all thence at once? The reason was, that this your only argument of gain still to grow thereby, might continue from time to time in force. For doubtless it is not to be supposed, that such a noble race of holy & most holy fathers, would have stayed all this while, from doing such a wonderful work of mercy and Christian compassion, unless there had been some such great reason of their doings. Well then, because venture non habet aures, the belly hath no ears, and a mind desirous and greedy of gain, will never be satisfied, I will not take upon me any further, to wrestle against this argument, only I warn you, that even in this respect, you be not any longer found, within the number of those walkers, that Paul told the Philippians often of, and then when he wrote unto them told them of them weeping, which were enemies to the Cross of Christ (for they sought their own and not that which was jesus Christ's: cap. 1.) For than he will go on with you, as he did with them. & tell you, that your end is damnation, your belly is your God, & your glory, your shame, because you mind earthly things. cap. 2. And in the mean time, until by this warning you can and will learn to take heed, for this argument sake, to give over to plead any more for your praying for the dead, to ease souls in purgatory, amongst an 100 other questions, that hang undecided thereabout amongst you, I pray you learn to answer this, how it chanceth, that since the light of the Gospel came amongst us in these later days, to the detection and consumption of your glorious Antichristian kingdom, we having heard before tidings of so many, that apparitions of souls that are troubled there, and would be eased are grown now to gaysome and rare. And if you would have your doctrine thereof run currant, as a plain and resolute point, I pray you also let us understand, how it came to pass, not long since, that S. Thomas More, and the Bishop of Rochester, two deep and profound learned men, and martyrs also of your Church (as your friends accounted them) agreed no better thereabout: For Sir Thomas More held, there was no water in purgatory, because Zachary calleth it a lake wherein there was no water, & the other held there was both water and fire, because of the Psalm which saith, by water & fire thou hast brought us to a refreshing: and the Bishop of Rochester held, that their executioners there were the holy Angels, and the other held, that out of all doubt they were Devils. And until you have learned to answer these our questions, and to reconcile these your own Doctors, this shall be sufficient to show, that you have neither all the doctors, Greek and Latin, nor all the Christians of the four quarters of the world, full and whole of your side in these four points, as you bragged you had in the beginning of this chapter. And the rather because touching this particular, and last point, both the vanity and untruth thereof, you yourselves have confessed in that some of you (as Alphonsus by name) have written that the Greek church could never yet be brought to be of your mind for purgatory, nor the Armenians, and that namely, as he saith because there is almost no mention thereof in the fathers especially that were Greeks, adversus haeres: l. 8. & 12.    


The XXXVIII. Chapter.  
ANd if I did not think, 
a What are the ceremonies in baptism, auricular confession, praying to Saints and for the dead, either all or the most material things of your religion, that we oppugn, or was your provision only in a readiness for those.  that it would be 
b You pretend fear of being too tedious, caused you to particularise no more. but lack of sound proof for any thing that we withstand in you caused you both thus confusedly & s●amlingly to run thorough this, and to pass over the rest.  too tedious for the Reader, I would set forth the rest of our Catholic doctrine, & the confirmation of it by the testimony 
c If you had done this indeed, it had been somewhat, but it being the only thing, that of all other you should have done, and thus to pass it over with a brag what you would have done, but for had I witted, bewrayeth the penury of your cause, especially, you not so much as once bragging, that you would prove any of them by the Scriptures.  of such a number, of not only doctors, but therewith all holy confessors & martyrs, which have suffered for our religion, and that have taught us, both by word of mouth, and by writing, all that we do use at this day, teaching us to live and die in it and for it. 
d You ground your question upon a supposal that you could have been as good as your brag, which you never could have been▪ and therefore at least until you had made better proof of your cunning that way you might have spared this question.  I would have you answer me unto this. Do you think, that they be in heaven or in hell? I know well, that mere scrupulos●y of conscience will make you not express plainly that, that your works do teach, and that you will remit this question to the judgement of God. But this is not to the purpose, for I do not demand of you any absolute answer, as if you had been in heaven or hell to see it: but this, to utter in your conscience, what you think of those that have holden, maintained and confessed our faith (whom you call Infidels and superstitious Papists) are they condemned? If you say, yea, then wherefore was the blood of Christ shed on the 
e For all true believers, and for all such of yours that ere they died got hold of the foundation a right, and yet for you to say as you do, is no better than blasphemy, for though all dying in the grossness of popery were condemned, yet it is well and a happy thing that Christ died.  Cross? it had been better that he had never suffered, if this were true. If you say, that God would be merciful to them, because their error proceeded of ignorance, and so, that he will have pity of us, because of ours. But I know, that you will say, that we are now unexcusable, because that we do refuse the truth that you do preach. By the self same reason our ancestors can allege before God no good excuse, for as much as they do make no account of the receiving of such ministers as you are, & that have preached the like gospel that you do announce unto us 
f These things follow not at all, for so the foundation be held sound, every error that a manholdeth living or dying condemneth not.  S. Hierom & all the Christians of his time are then condemned, because they would not receive the Gospel of Vigilantius, who did even as you do preach, that we should not allow the exposition of the Doctors, nor honour the relics of martyr; S. Augustine is likewise condemned, because he wrote and preached against the 
g Aerians you mean I think.  Arrians, who taught as you do, that it is an offence to pray for the dead. And to be brief, if that which you do preach aught to be called the gospel & true word of god, since the Apostles time there hath been 
h I would men would & could read them, as you wish for them, I am sure they should find them to be far more with us than with you.  never a Christian doctor in the Church: for they have all taught the contrary to your forged gospel, as every man may see, that will take the pain, but to look in their works, or to read those places that are quoted by me, and divers others, that have confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities. Let them then that have any eyes, behold the hazard that ye run into, and so many others throughout the world, which follow your opinion. 
i Even thus do you with us.  If one should come to accuse an other of falsehood, and that before he be assured of this matter, wherewith he did seek to atteinte the defendant, would not one think his matter very great, or his knowledge very small, to run headlong into the danger of that crime, which, if he could not prove, he should be condemned for himself. What then shall become of you, O most simple sheep, which seek with feigned arguments to condemn, not one or two, 
k These are but words, fear them not: but seeing the man had nothing else, he thought good belike to have enough of them, and those swelling enough.  but all the Christians and Catholics that have been in this world since the passion of Christ, the which have refused and reproved your doctrine as heretical, & have taught us this that we hold at this day? But now to answer unto that that was mentioned a little before, & that which a number of your flock have told me, when I have conferred with them, which is, that 
l We do not hold that ignorance will excuse any, that die out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale.  the error of our predecessors was not imputed unto them, forasmuch as these good simple people went to work after the grossest sort, thinking to do well, and that as than they did not understand well the truth, which is now brought to light through your gospel. I say, that in this ye are deceived more than half the value of your Religion: 
m You would seem then belike that your sim●le and ignorant papists, have all been great and profound clerks.  for before some of them died, they had forgotten more than ever you have learned, for all that, that you know you have learned it of their books (or stolen it, to say the truth) interpreting both their works & the scriptures contrary to the truth of their meaning. And although it were so that they had all erred, your coloured excuse of simplicity could avail them nothing, for the word of God would accuse them. If 
n I am glad to hear you cite this testimony to prove, that ignorance of the gospel shall not excuse any, but why plead you then sometime, that ignorance is the mother of devotion?  the Gospel (saith 
* 2. Corinth. 4.  S. Paul) had been hidden, it hath been hidden to those that have perished, the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded: them if that those unto whom the truth hath been hidden have perished, wherefore doth your excuse serve them? This being true, as it is most like, I mean, that they have not erred, nor that you only shallbe saved, & they all condemned. To my judgement our ancestors with all their simplicity did never err so much as your disciples do, to follow such masters, 
o This brag hath been used so often without proof, that now it is stole and loathsome.  as condemn that faith that the Catholic church hath taught & maintained these 1500. years, to maintain those heresies, that have been buried in hell many an hundred year agone, & now are called up again by Martin Luther, Caluin & his fellows.   

The XXXVIII. Chapter.  
THe vanity of the brag wherewith you begin again this Chapter, by that which I have said in answering of the former, hath appeared (I hope) sufficiently already: but whensoever it shall please you, or any for you, to think that it will not be tedious for the Reader, to bring us forth this number of Doctors, confessors, & martyrs, that you here boast of, and to make it appear indeed by their own words, or other good evidence, that they were living & dying, so on your side, as you here pretend, I doubt not, but one of us or other, will easily make it evident unto the world, that you are far greater in words and show, than you are in deeds and truth. You would have your reader believe, that only to avoid tediousness to him, you have forborn by their testimonies living and dying, here to confirm all the rest of your doctrine, and all that you do use at this day: but alas your own conscience telleth you, that indeed not only the tediousness of it to yourself, but the impossibility of it altogether, drew you to be glad to use this pretty shift & piece of cunning, to salve your credit & your causes with him. Considering therefore what already hath been answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter (in whose evidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest) & what otherwise upon sundry other occasions, in answering of your book, I have set down out of them directly to prove the contrary to this, that you say you could prove out of them; your question, with upon the supposal of your brag here to be but a truth, you have inferred & put forth; whither these doctors, confessors & martyrs that you talk of be in heaven, or hell, is childish, frivolous & needles. For you know well enough, that there is never a doctor, confessor, or Martyr, of any credit and worthy so to be accounted, for the Catholic Religion they taught and died in, but (though in some of them, we do not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you) that yet we hold, that forasmuch as not only they held with us the foundation, and other principal points of Christian Religion, wherein you are contrary both unto them & us, but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them, kept them in the rest from the grossness & impiety that you are therein fallen into since; that they were and are ours and not yours. And therefore, we comfortably assure ourselves, that (they holding the foundation and other principal points as they did, though they as men, builded thereupon some wood, hay, & stubble) yet the Lord sound the means by the fire of his spirit, and affliction, so to descry the same unto them, & to consume all that unsuitable building in them, ere they went hence, that we need not thorough any such scrupulosity of conscience as you imagine, fear to give our judgement or opinion of them. For we fear not their being in hell, for being on your side, but in that they were of ours, as they were and as I have said, we christianly persuade ourselves that their souls are in heaven. And you, fearing belike for all your cavilling, that touching these ancient doctors, confessors, and martyrs that this would be our answer, because you knew it might justly be so, you were content quickly to give over the pursuit of this question, and to ask us this, what we think in our conscience, of those that maintained & confessed your faith & Religion, whither they be condemned or no? And to fear us, from saying they be; upon the neck of this, you ask us, if it were so, why then was the blood of Christ shed; affirming confidently, that if this were so, that then it had been better that Christ had never suffered. This indeed I do know to be one of your common bugs, whereby you seek to make the simple afraid, either to forsake you, or to join with us: saying when you see men about thus to do, what, will you condemn all your forefathers? And to this end with many words you amplify the goodness of the forefathers, & what an unchristian cruelty it is to condemn all our ancient forefathers? Before I come to the answering of which objection, I cannot but tell you, that in setting down so bluntly & boldly, as you have, that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned, that then it had been better that Christ never had died, you have uttered gross & intolerable blasphemy. For though none such should be saved by the death of Christ, thousand thousands both have been and shallbe saved thereby: & better it were that all such, as you mean, should for ever be condemned, then that this speech of yours had any truth in it. But to answer this your objection, taken from the dangerousness of condemneth forefathers, because by the name of them you keep men, as you do, in your Romish and Babilonical captivity: first the reader is to understand, that an argument taken from forefathers simply, without distinction, but as you do this of yours, in matters of Religion, is not good. For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord said thus unto his people, walk not in the precepts of your fathers, neither observe their manners, nor defile yourselves with their idols. And David saith, Ps. 78. Let them not be as their forefathers were, a disobedient, & rebellious generation etc. And the like warning the people had, Psal. 95. Zach. 1. & jer. 11. Whereupon Peter telleth the Christians, to whom he wrote, that by the blood of Christ, they were redeemed from the vain conversation of their fathers, 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had been good, when Christ came, & sent his Apostles abroad, to preach the gospel to all nations: our forefathers in all nations than did ill, in receiving the doctrine of the gospel. For their forefathers for some 1000 years before, had held, professed, & maintained heathenish paganism. And it seemeth that many of the heathen then, used this very argument of yours, to keep men in paganism still. For such an objection I read, both made by them, & answered by Peter as it is written, Clementis lib. 5. recognitionun) by Ignatius, ad Philadelphenses: & by Augustin in quaest. veteris, & novi testamenti quaest. 114. By this reason, said Peter (as Clement reports it) If a man's father be a thief, or a bawd, the child must be no other. To such as said they would believe no other gospel than they found their forefathers had, Ignatius answereth; my antiquity is jesus Christ, whom not to obey, is manifest damnation. That which was before, saith Augustine, the Pagans say, cannot be bad. To whom he answereth saying; as though antiquity may prejudice truth. For thus might murderers, wantoness, adulterers, & other lewd livers, defend their wickednesses; because they are old, & have been from the beginning, saith he. So that both scripture, reason & the ancient fathers themselves teach us, that it is not always safe, to continued in the Religion, wherein our forefathers lived & died; and so easily we may perceive, that this your argument, how common soever it be with you, is of no force. For it hath been the old argument of Pagans, & doubtless is at this day, the chief argument that keepeth Turks, & Jews from yielding to the Gospel, lest then they should condemn all their forefathers.  
But as your argument is nought, so your antecedent is false also. For albeit that our Religion differ from yours, as it doth; yet far is it from us, that therefore we condemn all our forefathers. For, first we know, that from Christ, well near 1000 years, they then that professed Christ, for the most part, lived & died, holding the foundation, & many other principal points of religion with us; & therefore of their salvation, we doubt not. Secondly, ever since, howsoever a nummber fell away, from the truth & seemed wholly to be yours, yet we are persuaded, & we know it to be true; especially since Petrus Vald his time, who was 400. years ago; there have been great & known multitudes, openly joining with us, in the chiefest points of our religion, & dissenting from you, as I have showed before. And when there seemed to be fewest, yet we believe, that that God, that could & did preserve unto himself, in the little kingdom of Israel, in such a miserable time, ask Ahab's time was. 7000. that there, had not bowed their knees to Baal: that the God, I say, even when popery seemed to have prevailed most, according to the comfortable visions, that john had to that end, Apoc. 7. & 14, yet had preserved unto him, in all the kingdoms, and provinces of the world, infinite numbers, that yet neither in forehead nor hand, would bear the mark of the beast: & of all these we hope well also. Thirdly, even concerning such of our forefathers, as seemed to the world, to be of your religion, we think a number also are saved. For even amongst them, there are .3. sorts to be considered. The first sort are they, that lived and died in all your gross and erroneous opinions. The second are they, that though a long time they seemed to live in them, yet ere they died, God caused to see the vanity thereof, at least concerning your doctrine of justification; & so through the sight of their sins, in his mercy, he brought them to die, protesting that they trusted not to be saved in part, nor in whole by their own works, or by any other means, but only by his free mercy, through jesus Christ alone. The third sort is of them, which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies, that they were contented to use with you, & in that they held some other fond opinions with you; yet never joined with you indeed, in seeking for salvation, little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in, that way; but only looked for & believed, to attain unto it, for that which Christ had done once for all for them, in his own body. The first sort are they only of whom there is fear. But of that number, we hope there have been but few in comparison that is supposed. Of the other two sorts, we have a comfortable hope, because we know our God is most ready to receive a sinner, whensoever he unfeignedly repenteth, Ezech. 18. etc. And S. Paul hath taught us, that they that hold the foundation Christ jesus, aright; though through ignorance, or other infirmity, they build thereupon, hay, and stubble, yet in the end, they may be saved, 1. Cor. 3. Whereby every one, may easily perceive, that we hope that most of our forefathers, by one of these means, or other, have been saved▪ & that for them, the blood of Christ was shed upon the Cross, & that to the saving of infinite thousand souls, though never a one of them that lived and died, fully of your religion in all points, be saved. And therefore very bad, and blasphemous is your saying, as I cannot but tell you again, that then it had been better that he had not suffered at al. Hereby also you may see, that we ground not the hope that we have (as you imagine) concerning the salvation of our forefathers, upon their ignorance; but upon that faith that they lived and died in, or died in at the least, to be saved solely, and wholly, fully and freely by the sufferings and obedience of Christ. For howsoever ignorance may excuse de tanto, yet it cannot de toto. That is, howsoever ignorance may lessen the offence, yet it cannot make an offence, no offence. And though we read, that he that knoweth his master's will, and doth it not, shall be beaten with more stripes; yet we read not, that he that knoweth it not, and so doth it not, shall not be beaten at all. But rather we read, that the Lord saith, Psalm. 95. They are a people that err in their hearts, for they have not known my ways, wherefore I have sworn in my wrath saying, surely, they shall not enter into my rest. Indeed, in that that you have more means now, to reclaim you, from your errors and heresies, than ever your forefathers had, these many years; we think in truth that it will be far easier, at the day of judgement, for them, then for you: in that you have joined wilful stubbornness, to your other sins. But, whatsoever come of it, this is most certain, that whosoever worshippeth the beast, & his image, and receiveth his mark, in forehead, and hand, and so dieth; (for of such there the holy Ghost speaketh:) the same man shall drink, of the wine of God's wrath, and be tormented for ever, in fire & brimstone, before the holy Angels, and the Lamb, Apoc. 14. And this must stand, that he that believeth not in the Son, is condemned already; because he believeth not in the only begotten Son, john. 3. How many soever this sentence hath within the compass of it, thus it shall go with them. This also we may not, nor cannot deny, but that there, by believing in him, is meant believing in him aright: and that we do not unless we count his name, the only name whereby we come to salvation, Act. 4. and that so, as in him, we think & believe, that all things are already prepared, Mat. 22. & therefore do not suffer ourselves, by any persuasion, to be brought, to join any person, or thing, with him in justifying us before God, Gal. 5. Let men therefore take heed of living, or dying, without this true Christian faith, whatsoever they do, for without this, we are not in Christ; and if we be not in him, we whither, and come to the fire in the end, as fruitless and dead branches, john. 15. And indeed, if we thus have not him, we can neither come by that life that is in him, joh. 5. neither can we possibly escape damnation, which is prepared for all them, in the just judgement of God that do not aright embrace him, joh. 6. In this case therefore, in the name of God, let us not look what our fathers have done, but what they should have done. And let us learn rather to imitate those forefathers, yea, though they were never so few; that have lived and died in this faith; then those others, that have both lived and died, out of it. For we may assure ourselves, that neither ignorance, imitation of forefathers, nor any thing else, will or can exempt us, from that condemnation, that is due to such as live and die, thus in this foundamental error, or heresy.  
It is too too childish that you infer of the condemnation of Hierom and August▪ and all that were in their times, by our religion: in that you say they preached against Vigilantius, and the Arrians; against the one, for his not allowing the exposition of the Doctors, and refusing to honour the relics of Saints: & against the other, for that they taught it was an offence, to pray for the dead. For first, you see, we do not condemn any man, for every error; nay, we condemn none that live and die holding aright the foundation; though otherwise, they have had their errors. And secondly, though it were granted, that Vigilantius & the Arrians taught these 3, points, & that we are like them in these; and that we hold them for things well done, and taught by them; whatsoever either Hierom or Augustine wrote against them; must it needs thereupon follow, that either we, or they were deceived, or else that Hierom & August. and their partakers be condemned? Nay we are not so hasty to pronounce sentence of condemnation, of them or any other, for such errors: neither would you be so hasty to gather such conclusions, if you were wise. For you know well enough, that we make not these matters such, as that either we think all must be saved that hold the one way, or all condemned, that hold the other. But in truth you do charge both Vigilantius and the Arrians with more, than I think you will prove in haste. For neither do I read that Vigilantius was such an enemy to the exposition of Doctors; nor the Arrians charged with denial of prayer for the dead; neither think I, ever did you; and therefore it should seem here, you had no quotation. Again, you injury us herein; in that you would make your reader believe, that we refuse all exposition of the Doctors; which we never did. This only we do, as they themselves have taught; examine their judgements, and expositions by the Scriptures, which when we have done, if we find them therewith to agree, we esteem of them, as it becometh us, and as well, and more than you. But this is your fashion, upon your own head, without proof, to pin upon them that you find spoken against, by some ancient fathers, what you list, to make them like us. If Vigilantius taught that neither such relics of Saints, as you make store of, oftentimes, nor none at all, are to be honoured as you now honour them; it was no error at all in him; and if it had been that he had held but so, I am fully persuaded, that rather Hierom would have commended him for it, than otherwise. But indeed your gross honouring of them, was not then so much as thought of. Vigilantius his fault (as it seemeth by hierom's charging of him) was, that he would not allow, that there should such cost be bestowed upon their tombs, and burials, or that any such estimation, or reverend regard should be had of their graves, and sepulchres; as then, of love towards them, and to stir up others to imitate them, began to be used. Wherein, if he went too far, we join not with him. For we very well allow, that there should be a decent, and comely burial of them, and we esteem of their graves, and other certain monuments of them, as of things that appertain to the dear children of God. But with you, to tie virtue either to the place of their burial, or to any such thing that they left behind, and that in such gross manner as you have done, we account it both folly, and blasphemous impiety. It may be, when you named Arrians, you meant Aerians, in whom you oft tell us, that to pray for the dead, was condemned for an heresy. But if that were your meaning, we tell you, that Epiphanius writing of them, saith flatly (howsoever they were so accounted of some) that prayer for the dead, hath no manifest ground in the Scriptures, but rather leaned to the fashion and traditions of men (as both of this and almost of all the points in controversy betwixt you and us, Soto contra Brentium, & Lind. li. 4. suae panopliae towards the end thereof, two great champions of your side, have also plainly confessed) and so long you shall never be able to prove it an heresy. Again, here you must be admonished, that every thing that an heretic is reported to have held, is not by & by heresy. For many sound opinions often times, such have retained, and by that means, have the easilier prevailed to seduce men, by their errors. And therefore you and your fellows also, do your readers wrong, in making them to think, that because such an heretic, & such an heretic, held this and that, which we hold, therefore we are heretics. For if you should speak to the purpose, you should first prove the opinions that we hold to be heresies, and then show us that they were held and condemned, in such and such: or at the least that the things that we hold were in them heretofore condemned for heresies.  
But to be brief, you say if our Religion be the truth, them there hath been never a Christian Doctor in the Church, since Christ: for all have taught the contrary etc. These are but your words, and the falsehood of this, I have made to appear in sundry points already. And I would to god, the poor simple people could read their works indeed; for then howsoever it please you here to brag to the contrary, they should and would perceive, that you have in this wonderfully abused them. For they should see that for the most and greatest questions, betwixt you and us, they are flat on our side: & in those things wherein they seem most to favour you, that yet even therein, there was and is very great difference betwixt you, and them. Wherefore, your vehement exhortation, that men should not follow us, to condemn all Christians that have been since Christ, which taught always yours, & condemned ours, as heresy; is suitable to the foundation that is, nothing but false & vain. In like manner where you bring us here, as men (to avoid your argument of the condemnation of forefathers) that are so driven to our shifts, that we have nothing to say for appeasing the people, but this, that their errors shall not be imputed unto them, for that they did hold them of simple ignorance, having no better instruction: in confuting this excuse, you might have spared your pains. For you may remember, that otherwise I have blunted the edge of that argument. And for my part, I most willingly acknowledge that ignorance shall not, nor cannot exempt any from condemnation, that know not (if they be of years, and otherwise capable of knowledge) the Lord jesus Christ aright to their salvation. For I know it is written, that Christ shall come in flaming fire, rendering vengeance unto them that know not God, and which obey not the gospel of jesus Christ, 2. Thes. 1. and that howsoever by strong delusion under Antichrist, men shall be carried to believe lies; yet in the just judgement of God, because they received not the love of the truth, they shallbe damned, for not believing the truth, 2. Thess. 2. But you say, some have used that excuse of them, in conference with yourself. I warrant you, not simply to excuse such as lived and died, in an Antichristian faith; that is, looking to be saved, not only through the mercy of God, in Christ jesus; but by other means also, which can not stand together with a sound faith in Christ: but such only, as either amongst the fathers were preserved from ever falling into this foundamental error; or having fallen into it, had grown to detest it, & to embrace a faith, seeking, and finding in Christ alone, the full cause of their salvation ere they died: of which two sorts, besides those whom God did clean preserve, from the infection of popery, as he did the 7000. in Elias his time, from the idolatry of Baal; even in the greatest flourish of popery, the Lord, no doubt of it, had infinite numbers. For I myself in my days, have known divers, in whom, the leaven of popery, hath been so rooted, that notwithstanding never so good means have been used in their health and prosperity to reform them, yet they have persevered in an opinion, that they should either not be saved; or that partly they should be saved, for their own merits: who yet in time of sickness, or some other misery, having thereby been brought as it were, before God's presence, and so to see the infiniteness of his justice: have strait renounced all confidence in their own works, with wondered detestation of their own blasphemous and foolish conceit, that ever they trusted in them, or in any thing, but only in Christ jesus; who, now when they knew themselves, they would confess, was he that alone must save them, by that which he had done himself, or else it would never be. And if the Lord thus mercifully reclaimed some that wilfully, and peevishly a long time, had resisted the truth, shining as it doth now; why should we not much more conceive, that he showed that mercy upon a number of our forefathers, who dwelled in that error, of simplicity and ignorance? That therein, & in a number of things else, they erred not; you say, but you shall never be able to prove. Neither can you upon our holding that they did err, conclude, that either we only are saved, or they all condemned. For I have showed how a number, yea infinite numbers of them, might be saved, this notwithstanding. As for your judgement, that they never erred, so much as our disciples; it is not material. For you are no competent judge in this matter. And the reason of your judgement; that we condemn the faith that the Catholic Church hath held, this 1500. years, and maintain the old rotten condemned heresies; is a thing which by begging after this sort, at our hands, (though therein, you be never so impudent, and shameless a beggar; as that way, in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared) you shall never get. And therefore set your hearts at rest; your words though they be never so loud & stout, shall never make us yield you this for an alms. You must therefore prove your words true, and so make unto us evident demonstration thereof; (which you shall never be able to do) before we may yield unto you, that you have any right at all to this.    


The XXXIX. Chapter.  
IF that by a good and a right title your disciples call themselves the children of God, this maketh me believe, that the saying of our Saviour is fulfilled in them, the which is. 
* Luc. 16.  The children of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light: To prove this true, we see this daily experience: for a wise worldly man when he doth put out his money to gain, he will not trust the promise so soon of one or two or three, as he will do the bonds of a whole Town or City that should warrant or assure his gain. But you nor your disciples have not done thus, but rather the contrary. It had been better for you to have first put your faith and trust in God, believing that he hath given his holy spirit, and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures unto the Catholic Church, 
a We build not our faith, religion, or hope of salvation of these men's credits, but upon the credit of the undoubted word of God, set down in the scriptures, which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside, or contrary unto them.  and not to hazard the hope of your salvation, putting it into the hands of Luther, Zuinglius, Oecolampadius, and three or four other such pelting merchants, which have newly set up shops at Wittemberge, Geneva & Losane, which one of these days we shall see bankeroutes, as their predecessors have been before them, the which after that they had deceived the poor simple Catholics, 
b Beware of dogs, Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker, the best is, he is but one that barketh, to bite & hurt, he hath small or no power.  and gained some of their souls for the devil, they have at the last sold all their honesty and credit, so that at this day, except that it be those that read the ancient histories, no body else doth remember, that ever they lived in the world. You are come now last of all to make up their merchandise, but your credit can hardly be good before God: 
c Will you never have done with this bare & vain brag? Show this but once to be true, and then we yield, and then brag and spare not.  for you shall have against you all the ancient Catholic Church, which hath continued visible since the coming of Christ unto this day, all the Doctors of all the universities, all the Empires, Kingdoms and private state throughout all the world, which have received and honoured this doctrine, that you call Papistical. And if you say, that you will not trust men, but the very word of the Lord, we agree to the like, that we ought all to believe the Scripture, but we vary about the interpretation, for you interpret it after one sort, and we after another: you expound it after a new sort, and the Catholic Church doth follow 
d When it cometh to the trial it will be found, that our interpretation rather than yours, hath continuance from all the sound ancient Doctors, and the undoubted Apostolical traditions.  the old exposition of the ancient Doctors & traditions which you have forsaken: or to say the truth, your Ministers have led the sheep astray from the old flock, at the departing from the which they have been all scattered abroad, some following Luther, some Caluin, some the Anabaptists, & so forth: for the which the Popes & kings, & others that have had the government of the Church shall answer at the last day of judgement, for as much as while 
e Ergo you have had sleepy Popes  they slept, you have come & sowedweeds among the good corn. Then seeing you are the sheep that room astray, what excuse can they make before God, that wilfully follow your steps? We confess, that we are the poor sheep of God that have continued with our old flock steadfast & whole, as touching our religion, but very weak and sickly 
f Amend them for shame.  as touching our manners: that is to say, 
g But your wounds, sores & sickness is grown so desperate, that you will account none such, but them that will tell you, you are sound and in health, where you are most sick.  full of sins & vices, attending some sage physicians to heal us, & good pastors to keep us, casting out the chaff from the corn, I mean, cutting off those abuses that are offensive; not to such scrupulous consciences as you have, but unto him that doth threaten them for the careless lives of their sheep, & so to continue in that 
h Prove this once some of you, or else for shame never say it, almost in every leaf, for lack of matter as you do,  ancient faith that by succession of pastors we have received from the Apostles.   

The XXXIX. Chapter.  
In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words, & stout begging the main question: that your Church is the true, & ancient Catholic Church; that all the Christians great & small, since Christ have been flat on your side: that you are the only men, that follow the sound sense of the scriptures, delivered unto you, by the ancient doctors, and true pastors of the Church: & that we are but two, or three in comparison of you; sprung up yesterday, & such as you prophesy will shortly grow banckerout, both of credit, and honesty. This bladder full of nothing but wind, is sufficiently I hope, pricked, and let out already, by that which I have said in sundry places before. Howsoever, I hope the reader is not so simple, as that (seeing in you never so great store of these swelling words; (as long as he knoweth your adversaries deny them as stoutly of the other side: and he seethe you bring nothing but bare words, without proof) he will any whit be moved therewith. And yet as not able a discourse as this book of yours is accounted: the greatest stuffing that it hath, is only of such vain words as these above twenty times I am sure without any proof at all therein repeated. Indeed, if in all your life, you could prove but half so much, as confidently here you set down, than you were a notable fellow indeed, and then truly we would strive no longer with you. But in the mean time, seeing we know your speeches are such, as you can never prove, and that we are able against you, both to prove the falsehood of yours, and the truth of our own; blame us not, if we esteem not your words.  
Yet, lest you should say, that these likewise are but words in us, as the former have been in you; (though I see no reason to the contrary, but that our words containing a just and true denial of yours, were sufficient confutation thereof) I say, and will prove it, that you show yourself a man past all shame, in writing here, as you do; that all the ancient Catholic Church, which hath continued visible, since the coming of Christ, unto this day; all the doctors of all the universities; all the Empires, kingdoms, & private states, throughout all the world, are against us: for they have all received & honoured that doctrine, that we count papistical. For first, such is the newness thereof, as I have plentifully showed in divers places already, of this book; that none of all these, for sundry. 100 years, were once ever acquainted therewith: yea that divers of your assertions, which are the very principallest of your opinions: as namely, your dotcrine of Transubstantiation; of your Pope's being in authority, above general Counsels; and of denying the cup to the lay people; are not yet of 400. years age, and continuance. And it is notoriously known, that in the days of Gregory the 9, about the year of Christ, 1230 by occasion of injury and oppression, offered by the Pope, to that Church; that the Greek & Eastern Churches, departed quite from the Church of Rome, and never since (though it hath been oft attempted) could be brought to hold communion therewith again; insomuch that in your conventicle at Trent, you have condemned them, for schismatical and heretical Churches. And these Churches, as it is noted in an ancient record, in the Church of Herford, differ from yours, at the least in 29 articles. And they hold yours excommunicate, and an Apostata Church unto this day. And unless your reading be very small, you cannot be ignorant, that Math: Paris: writeth, that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Council of Lions, shortly after this breach, showed, that of 30. bishoprics in Greece, the Pope had not three, that then held communion with him: and that all Antioch, and the Empire of Romania, to the gates of Constantinople, was gone quite from him. There is also extant in print, in ancient record, an Epistle written, about seven years after this breach began, in the year 1237; by one Germanus, Patriarch of Constantinople, unto the Pope; wherein not only he laboureth, to make him see that the occasion thereof was, that he took more upon him over those Churches, than he should; but amongst other arguments to persuade him, to see his folly, he showeth him, that not only the Greek Churches themselves, but that all so the Aethiopians, Syrians, Hiberians, Alani, Gothi, Charari, with innumerable people of Russia, and the mighty kingdom of the Vulgarians, held communion with his Church of Constantinople; and so by occasion of this schism, had forsaken fellowship with the Roman Church. And the Cosmographers write, that the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople, reacheth so far, that all Greece, Misia, Belgaria, Thracia, Walachia, Moldavia, Russia, Muscovia, the isles of the Aegaean sea, and Asia the less, be under the same. It is also reported by authors of good credit, that at this day, under the other Patriarches of Antioch, Alexandria, & Jerusalem, and under the other, in the dominions of Presbyter john in Africa, there be infinite numbers of Churches, and Christians, differing from yours, and joining with ours in many things. So that Churches also both in the East, North, and South, and that of very great amplitude, within the time, that you speak of, have professed Christ, and yet have never been acquainted with most, or many at the least, of the points, for the which, your religion is counted of us Papistical: in all which there have been some doctors, universities, Empires; Princes, and private men (no doubt) since Christ, before you wrote, that neither honoured, nor received your papistical religion. Yea, but that marvelously you overshot yourself, you might have remembered, that within the time limited by you in these Western parts, there have been even under your Pope's nose, and in his greatest ruff, many doctors, universities, and some Emperors, kings, and private estates, that have neither received, nor so honoured your religion, which we call papistical, as here, you would bear your reader in hand. For even in these parts, and within the compass of these times, have been (you know) Wickliff, Hus, and Luther; & universities & kingdoms, good store, have had both your religion & Church, in defiance long before you wrote. He that readeth but the stories of Philip, & Lodovicke the last, (French king's) of Henry the 4, & 5. & of the 2. frederick's, the 1, & 2, (Emperors) and the Chronicles of king john here in England, and of 2, or 3, of his successors; he shall easily perceive, that much within the compass of time, that you speak of, both Empires, and Kingdoms, with their Emperors and Kings, have been far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion, that you here brag of: or else doubtless you must needs confess, that your Popes have been unreasonable creatures, that have so cursed and banned these men, as they have, and which besides have caused such infinite Christian blood to be, by war, shed to hamper them. These things considered, even children may see not only the vanity, but gross falsehood, of these your words. For howsoever either here or else where, in this your book, you would cause your reader to believe, that your Romish Church, is the catholic Church of Christ, every one indeed may see, that in truth it is but a particular, and a petty Diocese, in comparison of the catholic Church of Christ. For the reader must understand, that the Church of Christ is called catholic; first, because the religion that she embraceth, is that which hath been at all times, & will be to the end, the true religion of God; & secondly, because the same Church in respect of the members thereof, especially since the calling of the Gentiles, is not to be limited or shut up, within the compass, of any particular countries, but may universally be dispersed amongst all nations, and in all countries, where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which senses, can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholic. For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced, & was in possession of for 4000 years & more: neither are the bounds of the Romish Church, universal; but even as the Donatists shut up the Church in afric, so do the Romanists within the compass of a corner of the world, in comparison of all the rest, which they cut of, from the communion of the Church. And yet there is nothing more usual with Master joh. de Albine, in this his book, them to labour to countenance the Romish Synagogue, with these two things, antiquity & universality. But as for universality, it may appear by that which I have said, & by that which every one may easily conceive, if he compare them the profess Christ, whom they reject as heretics, & schismatics, with them that receive & honour the popish religion; that it is now, and hath been a long time, rather with than, whom they thus condenne, them with themselves. And as for antiquity, most certain it is, that the Turks, the Nestorians, & the Circuncisers, may a great deal more justly, brag thereof, than they. For the Turks have been in possession of their full Mahometisme, these 900 years, & the heresy of the Nestorians hath continued these 1200, years, amongst the Georgians. And the heresy of them that join circumcision with baptism continueth yet, in Africa, in AEthiopia under Presbyter john, & hath these 1500 years: whereas popery is not so old as the youngest of these, in that almost all the points thereof, wherefore it is so called, have been devised and brought in since, the youngest of these began. But put the case, that popish religion were ancient indeed, and had the greatest part of the world to follow it: must it needs therefore follow, that it were the truth, & the best way? No indeed. For who can deny that Gentilism or Paganish idolatry, when the Apostles were sent first, to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, was very ancient? For it had well-nigh continued then, from Noah's f●ould until that time. And never was popery, of so many nations so universally received, as that was. And yet who is so simple, but he knoweth now for all this, that that was a way that led to destruction? And if the mystery of iniquity began to work in the Apostle Paul's time, and yet Antichrist the father thereof, was not quite to be abolished, before the brightness of Christ's second coming, as he plainly teacheth, 2. Thess. 2. it being withal prophesied, that the whore of Babylon (antichrist's right pattern) should sit upon many waters (that is, rule over many people) and cause the kings and nations of the earth, to be drunk with the wine of her fornication, as it is Revelat. 17. who seethe not that even Antichristianity may be countenanced with great show, both of antiquity, & universality, as certain and good tokens, as the Romanists count these two, of the true Church of Christ. Which things considered, howsoever it pleaseth Master joh. de Albine here to jest at us, as men like to the children of God in nothing, but in this folly, that contrary to the fashion of the wise children of the world, we choose rather to trust a few, than many; we are contented therein, to be like them still, and so rather to choose to enter into the Ark with 8. persons, Goe 7. so to be saved: then to refuse so to do, with all the world besides, & so to be drowned. And I would advise him for all his wisdom, to be such a fool, as rather with two or three, to fly out of Sodom, with Lot Gen. 19; then with all the rest to tarry behind, and to be destroyed with fire and brimstone. For howsoever he count this folly, Christ who is wisdom itself, hath charged his to strive, to enter in at the strait gate, though few go the way, & many the other broad way. For that is the way that will lead unto salvation, whereas, the other leadeth to destruction, Luke. 13.  
But the men whom he nameth, Luther, Zuinglius, and Oecolampadius (though they be men whom we think well of, and whose memories shall be famous in God's Church (for all his blind prophecy to the contrary) when the names of a thousand such as himself is, shall be either buried in oblivion, or infamous for their resisting of God's truth) are not the men upon whom we build our religion. These we account such as in these later days, God used to very good purpose, to revive, & further to publish, and make known the doctrine of truth, than it was when they began first. But the men that we trust and lean unto in this case, are those holy men of God, and such like, as Saint Peter speaketh of, 2. Pet. 1; which spoke as they were moved by the holy Ghost: & so have left the will of God, for our full direction unto us, in the holy Scripture. And these, the ancient Christians and Doctors for six hundred years after Christ, and infinite numbers since, even down unto the times of these, whom he here nameth, as I have showed in the fourth Chapter of this book, and else where, together with us, have followed. And further than these writers of the canonical scriptures, have led any of these, we do not, nor mean not to follow them. You show therefore, Master Albine, but the nature of your Romish spirit, in your confident avouching without all proof, that these men you name, gained souls to the Devil, and that they have so fold their honesty & credit, that few now know that ever they lived in the world. For besides your rash and uncharitable judging of them you speak that which your own heart told you was a lie. For, you could not be ignorant, but that these men's names are known to thousands, that never read their stories. But you say that you agree with us in not trusting of men, but in trusting to the very word written; but you and we vary about the interpretation: for we interpret it after one sort, and you after another, we after a new sort, and the Catholic Church, whereby wrongfully still, you mean your own) doth follow the old exposition of the ancient doctors, and traditions, with we have forsaken. Herein, you say more, then either you or any of your fellows will stand to. For when it cometh to the point, the greatest champions of you confess, that a number of the things. that are in controversy betwixt you and us, are without the compass of the scripture: and therefore lest they should be quite rejected, they under prop them with the rotten prop (which yet they labour to make to carry some show of strength) of traditions, or of the word unwriten. And in the other point, concerning interpretation; that therein we vary, it is true; but that the variety is, as you say, it is false. For we never refused the exposition of the Catholic Church, nor to use the help of her sound and Catholic Doctors, or traditions agreeing with the word written as helpeth the better to attain to the right sense thereof by. Indeed, the interpretation of your new Apostata Church of Rome, her false doctors and traditions, because they will not stand with the plain scriptures themselves, we reject. Otherwise, we are ready always to prove our sense, thereof, to agree with the ancient Church & her doctors, better than yours can. And as for the variety amongst us, of interpretations, which you charge us withal; sure we are, it will never prove so great, as hath been, and is amongst you, or as is betwixt your interpretation, and that which was of them, 900. years ago: and therefore, for any thing you have yet said, you yourselves are the roving sheep from the ancient sheepfold; you are they which while men slept, have sowed cares amongst the good corn: and which are the sheep sick in religion, as well as in manners; and not we. And therefore they that have joined with you, whosoever they have been, are like at the day of judgement, to smart for nothing more, then for taking part with you. And so to conclude this Chapter, whatsoever hitherto, you have gained at the hands of the simple, by these your vain and swelling words: you shall hereafter lose ten times as much, amongst them that are wise thereby.    


The XL. Chapter.  
I Know well, that you will take this confession of mine to your advantage, saying, that for fear of being infected with our superstitious diseases, you have separated yourselves from the common flock: but if you do consider my first words, they have barred you all manner of ways to reply justly: for I have already said, that although we be sickly & weak sheep, as touching our doings or manners, yet, in regard of our faith (thanks be to God) we are safe & sound, keeping still 
a Indeed you! have said, and said it again & again, but yet you have never proved ●t, nor 〈◊〉.  that integrity of religion that by succession of pastors we have received from the Apostles, without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholic belief: for as for ceremonies the Church hath used the ever as touching the time & the place, to the honour of God & edification of our neighbours 
b Your antichristian religion is that, that hath caused us to separate ourselves from you, as we are bidden, reve. 18. vers. 4.  & therefore, if you did separate yourselves from our kind of living, to lead a holy solitary life, as the holy hermits & Saints have done in times past, forsaking the conversation of the common people, to live in contemplation, without separating themselves from the communion of the Church, in the which they have been baptized, & had received their faith, your doings had been as much worthy of praise in that respect, as now they are damnable, considering how you forsake, the common tabernacle, within the which both you & we have received the sacraments of regeneration, & our spiritual food altogether. And to the end that no body run astray from the right path that he should follow, the good Christian ought to fix in his mind this resolution, I mean to serve God, & to live in the catholic faith, commonly or privately for when there is any question put, as touching the life, the commonn are, 
c This is a right popish gloss, that is, a plain perverting of Christ's meaning.  as 
* Mat. 7.  Christ doth say, doth lead one to perdition, & the narrow way doth guide unto the part of salvation. But if one speak of religion, the contrary is verified for the common way is the ways of health, & the private way is the path of damnation 
d And this is an other.  The Prophet David in the 24 Psalm, had a regard to this, when he prayed God, to teach him his ways by the religion, & his paths, by the manners and customs.   

The XL. Chapter.  
YOu were deceived, in thinking that we would pretend your evil manners, or your difference in ceremonies, for the defence of our separation from you. For we have always protested, that it was especially, your Antichristian doctrine, that hath caused us, to accounted that Revelations. 18.4, Go out of her my people, that ye be not partakers in her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: directly spoken to us, concerning your Romish Synagogue and religion. And therefore is it, that we have so separated ourselves from you as we have, because we find, that you are apostates, & long have been, from the ancient Catholic Church of Christ, and from the truly commended ancient Roman Church itself; with whom we cannot grow in common, unless we had forsaken your fellowship. And this kind of separation of ourselves from you, we know was more necessary, and is more commendable, than all the separation, of hermits, or any other of your caged birds, howsoever you could have allowed that, better than this, of ours. But you would seem to have bound us to have continued with you, because that we received, many of us, baptism at your hands. What? I trust you are not so mean a divine, as to think it always best, for men to continue communion, with them in all things, that have baptized them? You know, I am sure, that the Arrian heretics (their heresy spreading itself, so broad as it did, and continuing divers 100 years) and other heretics, as well as they, baptized many, and yet I hope you will not think, that they might not after, forsake their heresies, to turn to the truth? You know, many did forsake them, and came to the truth, & yet, it was counted an heresy, to baptise them again. The better yet to show that we should not have departed from you, you tell us that you have continued, without adding and diminishing, in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first, and since from hand to hand, in all integrity, hath been by the succession of faithful pastors, conveyed down unto you: and so we had both baptism, and all our other spiritual food with you. These are but words, the evidence of the thing is to the contrary (as I have sufficiently made demonstration before.) Prove this indeed, and we will repent us of our departing from you, & most joyfully & willingly will we join with you again. I like very well your counsel, that every good Christian should fully resolve, and determine to serve God, and to live and die in the Catholic faith: but then I add, that he had need well and throughly to be resolved, what, and which is that true Catholic Faith. For his direction in this behalf, how to discern, which is the right way to heaven, and which not; and consequently, which is the true catholic faith, & which is not: you teach him, that when there is any question put, as touching life, than the common way, as Christ doth say, Mat. 7. doth lead to perdition, and the narrow to salvation: but in religion it is contrary: whereunto you say, David alluded Psal. 24. saying: show me thy ways O Lord, and teach me thy paths: by ways, meaning religion; and by paths, manners. Where learned you this divinity? If you look upon Christ's words well, you shall find, that he counted the way to heaven, strait, as well in respect of religion, as life: and that there is nothing more usual with David, then indifferently without any such nice distinction, to use these words ways, and paths, both in respect of the one, and the other; you might easily perceive, if you were any thing conversant in his Psalms: look upon Christ's time, whereunto he had an especial eye, when he used these words, and you shall find, that true religion was a thing more geyson, and rare then in the world, and had fewer followers; then an holy and a virtuous life. For even many of the Pharisees, and Philosophers made great show of that; & that therefore, to lead us rather, to think that in respect of Religion than manners, he had uttered those words; immediately thereupon he addeth, beware of false Prophets. And as for David (if your argument be grounded upon that that he placeth the word ways, in the first place; and paths, in the later) if you mark him well, you shall oftentimes find him, to invert that order in the Psalms. And Psalm 109. because you should plainly see, that he referreth ways, as well to manners, as to Religion, he saith: take from me the way of lying, and teach me the way of thy statutes. And considering that you cannot be ignorant, that Idolatry and Paganism, in Christ's time, was more common, than Christ's Religion, & therefore had 10000 that took it for true religion, in comparison of one, that took Christ's so; I wonder that you ever durst thus expound Christ's words. For by your exposition, he told them, that it was better for them, to embrace paganism, than his Religion: for that was the common beaten way, and his was but a small bie-path. Again, in Liberius his time, when it was an hard matter, to find one true Catholic, for an 100 Arrians: insomuch that Constantine said unto Liberius, that he alone favoured Athanasius, Theodor. Eccles. Hist. lib. 2. cap. 16. by your rule, Liberius did well, in that, seeing Arrianisme to be the common way, and his ancient Religion, that then was but as a bie-path, wherein few walked; that he yielded his subscription, to Arrianisme. Indeed it should seem, that this Pope Liberius was of your mind, & so long you care not I am sure, as that you may have a Pope on your side. Well yet, if you had but remembered that the Turkish religion, is at this day, & hath been a long time common to more, than your own religion is, or ever was: it might have stayed you from teaching men, to measure religion by the commonnes of it, or multitude of followers, lest you should have so persuaded them to turcism: But it may be you had rather have it so (seeing in comparison thereof, ours is but a narrow path wherein few do walk) then that they should follow us. If your skill in interpreting of the scriptures, & in prescribing rules for the direction of men, be no better, than you have showed in this; you may very well be a Doctor, and great master, in your blind and ignorant kingdom of Popery: but in the kingdom of Christ, there is little hope, that there will ever any great reckoning be made of you.    


The XLI. Chapter.  
NOw to turn to the partition that we have upon the 34. and 37. of Ezechiel, and upon the tenth of john▪ it is plain, that we are the flocks of weak and sickelie sheep: and your disciples are the sheep that run this way and that way astray: those that are our 
a Howsoever that title is due unto them, they take it not unto them.  ill Prelates take upon them the title of Mercenarii pastoris, but unto your ministers the titles of devouring wolves, may be applied 
b Only of such as have made shipwreck of conscience.  without any scrupulosity of conscience: for you watch to none other intent, but to make the sheep run out of the fold, and to devour them, because that our pastors have not taken care to keep them. And although they be not excusable, aswell for their silence, as for their naughty lives, I see not your Patriarches & zealous manifesters amend much themselves, the faults that they find in us: for besides the true and certain experience that we have had by the trial that we have seen to our cost in this Realm, within these five or six years 
c Penned then by such, that had taught their pens to write lies.  I have read full many a golden Legend of your sacred martyrs and holy Bishops, which do not altogether redound to the honour of your pretended reformed Church. And among others Theodore de Beza Caluins' successor in the Pontificate seat of the holy city of Geneva of whom such things are preached abroad, that if the one half of them be true, 
d Neither will ●e, nor any of us, so compare ourselves.  he is scant so good a man as S. john Baptist. And because I would not have you to mislike them for their religion, I will not allege, to verify this, any Catholic author, but sun of Luther's successors your first founder, who taught you to write so learnedly (I would say railingly) against the church of Rome. Tilemanus Heshusius a minister of the Lutherans, in the 
* In his book of the true body of Christ in the sacrif written in Latin.  book that I have already noted, doth openly accuse the said Beza of great infamy, that he did not only content 
e Heat of contention made the man too credulous, and so believed your malicious parasites, that most impudently and falsely have forged these things of him.  the fancy of his mind, with leading a luxurious & a licentious life, & to stain his vow with a bilt of adulterous love, but that that is worse, he himself hath set forth in writing all his lascivious acts, the which (saith he) 
f His lascivious songs and Epigrams he made and published whiles he was yours, whereof he hath publicly in print testified his repentance & mislike since he was ours.  he hath song in sacrilegerime to the Instrument, to manifest his sin to the whole sight of the world. And in that very book he doth say, that Beza, who as I have told you) is a Bishop of the holy City of Geneva, is an infamous monster, whose naughty life any man may read set forth by himself in his own Epigrams: and notwithstanding (saith he) to hear him speak, you would think he were Saint john Baptist, for he can talk of nothing but of his holy life. This same very minister in the book where he writeth these things, he doth lay to 
g The more shame for him, for it is a monstrous and notorious slander.  beza's charge that he took with him to Geneva another man's wife, without the knowledge of her husband, whose name was Candida. 
h Will an argument from one to all follow with papists? and yet this one not proved such an one neither.  Thus seeing by the very testimony of those that are our enemies, & that are your brethren, as touching the seeking to overthrow the Catholic church. The principal pill●●s of your church are bawds, thieves and adulterers, ruffians: 
i And yet what is more usual with papists, then to cry out against our ill lives, though your lives be such, as you have confessed.  why do ye not, first begin to reform yourselves, to this intent, that when we see, that you have taken the black out of your own eyes, we may be the better content, that you should spy the moat in ours. Remember that our saviour saith in the gospel, that the physician ought to cure himself.   

The XLI. Chapter.  
WE are very well contented, seeing you so willingly confess it, and that so often, that you be counted weak and sickly sheep; and your pastors, hirelings. But the other part of your speech, that we are the sheep, that are run astray from God's sheepfold, and our pastors are the ravening wolves: we most constantly, in respect of our Religion, deny it: howsoever, with you, we must be enforced to confess, that in respect of manners, there is fault, in both. And therefore how boldly soever, you affirm this, seeing still you keep your old wound, in having nothing to prove it, but your own bare words, our denial of it, countervaileth it well enough. You though you have granted yourselves, to be never so sick in manners, and have taught us, that Religion must not be stained, and thought to be blemished, for the lewd lives of some, of the professors; yet your stomach so overflowed (it seemeth) with choler against us, and namely against that reverend father Theodore Beza; that you could not be quiet, until you had cast it up, to ease your stomach a little. You first tell us, that by experience, and reading of the stories of our Martyrs, you are able to say so much of our lewd lives; as that we have not much amended the faults that we find in you. And then you come to that, where you long to be, to discredit Beza: to whose charge, you say sundry heinous crimes, and that upon the report of Tilemannus Heshusius, a bitter and intemperate enemy of his, for the question amongst us, for the manner of Christ's presence, in the Sacrament. To the first, this issue I dare, and do join with you in; whatsoever you have read, or seen of us, that we have read and seen more monstrous and horrible sins▪ in the lives of your most holy fathers, and Popes of Rome, than you are able to charge all that ever professed our Religion withal. Was there ever like savage cruelty amongst us, one to another, as I showed before, was amongst them, about Formosus? Their pride hath appeared most monstrous, in treading upon emperors necks, and otherwise infinitely, in misusing of them; as I have at large showed Chapter sixteenth. Their detestable sorcery, necromancy, and poisoning one another, to come to the Popedom, above the year one thousand, by Silvester the second and his followers, set out by Benno a Cardinal, in the life of Hildebrand, is such as we never read the like amongst the barbarous heathen. Their ambition to come to that place, and their insatiable covetousness, when they have got it, hath pass, for thereby Christendom hath been more troubled, with Schisms and wars; and Christian kingdoms otherwise, have been more impoverished, for these five or six hundredth years: then by all other quarrels and occasions incident whatsoever. Finally, for their filthy life, I am persuaded, that there were few worse, in Sodom and Gomorrha, then sundry of them have been. For Sixtus the fourth; in the year one thousand four hundredth seventy four, builded stew houses of both kinds: and not long after, Paul the third, registered 45000. whors, that paid him monthly such a pension, that by the year it came to 40000. ducats and more. And it was no small argument what filthy fruits, their forced single life, both had and was likely to bring forth: that in Gregory's time, in certain fishpondes, there were found 6000. children's heads. These things your own Chroniclers, you know, do make so clear, that now every one almost can name, and describe them, as they have deserved. For mine own part, I am even loath to defile my paper, with the names of such filthy wretches, as a number of them have been; and seeing the notorious evidence of the thing is such, that you yourself do not here deny, but that diverse of them, have been lewd livers, and therefore, therein, you have left them without defence, it is needless either to trouble myself, or my Reader, any further, with the raving in such a filthy dounghill.  
To proceed therefore, you must remember, that you may neither draw argument from your writers, of the lives and deaths, of our Martyrs, nor from Heshusius an enemy to Beza, either against out Martyrs, or against him. For the report of an enemy you know, is worthily suspected as partial. And as for that which Heshusius objects to Beza, he had it from Baudwin and Bolsacke, and other such impure and filthy enemies, and Apostates: who to win credit again with you, when for their misdemeanours, our Church had cast them of, cared not, what to write, against Caluin and Beza, though they knew it to be never so stark a lie. To whom, Heshusius (through heat of contention, carried to a desire, to deface his adversary, with whatsoever he could) giving too light credit, as the manner of men is to do but too too much in such cases, he wrote as he did. As for his Epigrams, wherewith, he chargeth him, they were made when he was but a youth of 16. or 17. years old, published by that he was 20. then with the great liking of yourselves. And all this was, before he was of our religion, even whiles he was one of yours. And as he was yours, when he made them, so since he was ours, he hath divers times himself, published his hearty repentance for the same: and that in print, as in his preface before a tragedy of Abraham's sacrifice, and in his preface before his poems and epigrams, with thirty Psalms of David, revised and corrected, and else where in his works. And therefore for those, the discredit is rather yours, than ours. But if he had continued in your side, if he had gone as far as ever did any, not only in writing filthy poems, but also in Sodomitry, and whoredom itself; all had been well enough. For of such, you have had good store, and yet in good credit with you. For besides that divers of your Popes, as namely Clement the 8, Paul the 3, & julius the third, were all notoriously infamous in the stories for their most filthy life: johannes Casa your Pope's Legate and an Archbishop in your Synagogue wrote a book in the praise of Sodomitry, printed in the year 1549, at Venice, which book since, some of you, to show what liking you had of it, have newly published, beautified with most execrable and filthy pictures, to set out that sin withal. And Petrus Aloysius notwithstanding that most monstrous, and impudent Sodomitry of his committed by force, in the sight of his men; (as both Vergerius & Sleidan report out of certain Italian stories) upon the body of Cosmuscherius bishop of Fane, a man then, of 30. years old at the least; was dear and highly esteemed in the eyes of his filthy, adulterous, and incestuous father Pope Paulus the third. And for the other point, touching Beza his wife, certain it is, that she was an honest woman, & of good report, when he married her, and since always Christianity hath behaved herself; as becomed an honest matron●, for any thing that I ever could either hear or read, worthy of any credit, to the contrary. And who but they that have made a shipwreck of all shame & honesty, would ever have broached such a monstrous untruth as this, that he ran away with her, she being an other man's wife, to Geneva, her husband yet living? Beza himself, in that preface that I named last of his, protesteth not only the falsehood of this, but saith further, that if any mortal creature can justly touch him, with the least and lightest suspicion of adultery, he refuseth no seat of judgement▪ And if there were any ground of truth ●n this, is it likely that this matter would never have been prosecuted against him in no court of France, or elswher, he having so many enemies? Nay, we may be sure that if there had been any truth, either in this, or in any such thing now said against him, he had heard of it at Poysy. One Papist (as Parsons a father jesuite) telling the tale, saith, she dwelled in Calendar street; and Frarin an other, in his railing oration, saith, she dwelled in Harp street: if Daniel were alive and sat in judgement, these fellows, agreeing no better than the two wicked judges did, in their accusing of Susanna; were like to have (and well worthy were they) the judgement that those two wicked judges had. But in the mean time, with patience we must possess our souls committing our cause to God (who one day willbe avenged of such lying and slanderous tongues) and that never looking for other, but that the Devil, as he hath been a liar, from the beginning, and a false accuser of God's servants: so he will continue, and show himself in his instruments, unto the world's end. Though you have no other ground, but the report of an enemy, which he gave forth upon the report of most malicious persons, and otherwise divers ways infamous, for all this your devilish slander of Beza, which evidence you knew well enough is stark nought: you yet proceed to your conclusion that he was such a man; yea, that thereby we may see, that the principal pillars of our Church, are bawds, thieves, and adulterers, as confidently as if your evidence had been most strong. Wherein, your fault is not only that your argument holdeth not, taken from no better grounds, against the particular man himself; but that also you reason from the fault of one, to all the chief pillars of our Church: and so you put a great deal more, in your conclusion, than was in the premises, which in reasoning is an intolerable fault. And if a man should reason in like manner, Pope john the 12. was an adulterer: john the 13. was slain committing it; john the 18. put to death, & both his eyes put out, by the means of Gregory about it; pope Clement the 6. caused to be poisoned (as sun write) Lodovick the Emperor; Silvester the second, was a notable conjuror, Vrbanus drowned five of his dearest Cardinals: (though your own Chronicles testify these) therefore all your Popes, the very heads of your church, were such; would you allow of such an argument? I am sure you would not, & yet hath it an 100 times better ground, and reason in it, then yours. As yet therefore for any thing you have said, the beam is in your own eyes; and so you are not fit persons to go about to get the moat out of ours, before you have cleansed your own better.    


The XLII. Chapter.  
YOU that can say so well, that one ought to live according to the scripture, and that you will by it reform us, why do ye not begin with yourselves, to give us the 
a We doe● & yet when we have done what we can, there will be some amongst us whom you may too justly charge with these and other sins, because always there will be some hypocrites and time-servers, but seeing we do by our religion condemn such usages, & those that embrace our religion in sincerity, condemn these sins and abstain from them, neither we, nor our religion are to be charged with them.  better example. From whence come so many kind of usuries & excessive interests, as you do use? You call our church abominable and adulterous. He that is among you without sin, let him cast the first stone. You do abhor our idols (as you term them, talking of our images) how cometh it to pass then, that some of yours should come so near us that are Idolaters, as to rob our Churches, and to carry away the images and relics, and to go and sell them in other places? But now to make an end of this discourse, although it were so, that your works were the best of the world, yea, wholly without spot or sin (as some of 
b If any so affirm, we renounce them, they are none of us.  you do affirm) yet were not they sufficient to move us to change our Religion, nor to forsake that that our forefathers have taught us: for although it be so, that our saviour Christ was as just and as innocent as any can be, hath been, or ever shall be, yet neither his holy life, nor the Scriptures that he did allege, to prove his coming by the authority of the Prophets, nor the testimony of S. john Baptist: all these things together were not sufficient to persuade the jews to forsake their old laws, and to receive the Gospel, without the testimony of the great 
c Neither would they believe, when he had wrought his miracles, no more would you, if we should.  miracles that he did in their presence. He doth confess this plainly, where he saith: if 
d joh. 15. And so he saith, if I had not spoken unto them, they should not have had sin, but now they have no cloak for their sin. v. 22.  I had not done in their presence the works and miracles that never any had done, they should have no sin. This sentence is most notable and worthy to be graven in the hearts of all Catholics, to assure their consciences which are troubled with such diversity of opinions. For although it were so, that you, my masters, were the honestest men of the world, sent from God to teach and preach a true doctrine, yet should we be excusable before God for not receiving of your commission, even as the jews had been for not receiving of our saviour Christ, 
e It was expressly prophesied, that when the Messiah should come, he should work such works, and therefore it was necessary, that he should work them, and herein he had privilege and prerogative beyond all men: the like is not prophesied, that preachers of the gospel should do always, & therefore this is required at our hands, without all reason. And yet therefore we have not more privilege but less, than Christ.  if he had not done so many miracles. For we know no cause, why you should be more privileged than Christ. And seeing that you have showed nothing to verify it this way, and that the Scriptures, make no mention of your vocation, nor you show no miracles, & that your lives are at the least as ill as ours: 
f Thus to threaten you we may boldly & without shame, because we are able to prove our doctrine by the scriptures, to be the same, that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles.  what moves you to be so bold and so unshamefaced, as to threaten us with eternal damnation, if we receive not your heretical doctrine, the which is so full of discords and divisions, that one may easily gather by this, from whence it came, and whither it doth lead one, although ye have nothing in your mouths, but the Gospel and the word of the Lord? And as 
g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine, shall find the Manichees, to whom he speaketh, far like● you then us.  S. Augustine said unto your semblables, Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio. 
h I would you would go on with Augustine and say, if that be found with you, it is more worth than all the rest, and that you would be contented to try that, by the scriptures, as he was, and then you would sure, so many of you as have any grace, quickly join with us.  I say no more at this time, but that I beseech God to draw you as near to us, as you are far from us, and to inspire your minds to turn to the flock of Christ, the which, both to your own harm and ours you have forsaken.   

The XLII. Chapter.  
THere is no question of that, but that every one is to begin first to reform himself: and the Lord give both us, and you grace, effectually so to do. But if neither side should call upon the other for reformation, until the one side were grown wholly clear of sin: you know well enough, that then they must never do it. For what company and society of men ever was there, but therein was some bad, as well as good? As Adam had an Abel, so had he a Caine. There was an Ishmael, as well as an Isaac, in Abraham's house. And Isaac had an Esau, as well as a jacob. Amongst the eight that were saved in the Ark, there was a Cham. In the four that left Sodom, one that looked back. And amongst Christ's 12. Apostles there was a judas. Yea, Christ hath taught us, by the parable of the good seed, and tars Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods own field, but that even unto the harvest there willbe a mixture always, of bad with good. But you charge us further that amongst us, there are many kind of usuries, and interests; and that though one way, we care not for your images, yet we love them so well an other way; that we have rob your churches of them. Whereunto, my answer is, that we cannot deny, but there are too many amongst us, who by such unlawful means, seek to enrich themselves; and that there are too too many profane, and carnal men, that have our religion in their mouths, who by their lewd conversation, dishonour the glorious gospel of jesus Christ: & we are most heartily sorry for it, and daily pray unto God, for amendment thereof. But this we must tell you, that we preach against all sin & impiety whatsoever; and namely, against usury and all tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such things as you talk of. And our Religion, and the laws in our common weal condemn and disallow such dealing, & therefore we are wronged, that in these things, we generally, or our religion at all, should be charged. Surely many of our usurers & extreme dealing men amongst us, are either men of no Religion, or yours, rather than ours: neither do I think where your Religion is in greatest credit, that in those common weals, usury lieth dead and buried. Sure I am, your Popes have been for a long time, the cunningest and unreasonablest usurers in the whole world; in that they have sold their palles, their lead, and other their hallowed ware, which are indeed trifles, and things of no value, for such sums of money and gold, as they have.  
You flatly slander us, in saying, that there are some of us, that affirm, we are wholly without spot or sin. For we both detest that opinion, and count them that should hold so, even worthy to be detested for their so holding. Yet you say; if it were so, that ought not to move you, to leave your religion taught you by your forefathers. What a sound ground of Religion, forefathers without distinction is, I have showed sufficiently already. In which point I would always have the Christian to learn, to distinguish, betwixt the old and ancient forefathers, the Apostles, and their successors in doctrine and life, in the primitive church; and the later forefathers; and never to think the latter worthy following any further, than they have followed the former, and then the danger of this dart is avoided. And that it is reason, we should follow them no further, we may learn in that Paul himself 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ. But you have a further reason, not to be moved from your Religion, for our life, were it never so Godly; because Christ, though he was without sin, and confirmed his doctrine, both by the ancient scriptures, and john Baptists testimony: yet he said, that if he had not done in their presence, the works and miracles, that never man did before him; they had had no sin, john 15.24. For hereof, you gather, that you may securely, whatsoever we say unto you, or howsoever we live, refuse us and our Religion; and continue in your own still, as long as we prove not the lawfulness of our vocation, and the goodness of our Religion by miracles. For you know no cause (you say) why we should be more privileged than Christ. This argument you urged before cap. 30. and there I answered it. Where I have showed you, amongst divers other reasons, that there was this especial reason, that Christ should work such miracles as he did; to prove himself the Messiah: because expressly the Prophets had prophesied, that he so should when he came: which reason you cannot show, why now we should work miracles. For the Prophecies that were given forth by Paul 2. Thess. 2. and by john, revel. 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon, show only, that the Lord would do it, by the spirit of his mouth, in the preaching of the everlasting Gospel. That therefore is it only, that we are to approve ourselves by, to be the men, that the Lord will use to that purpose. And yet herein we take not upon us, greater privilege than Christ. For we accounted that an especial privilege of his, that he was so to confirm his doctrine by miracles; as that, after the confirmation of it, so by him, & his Apostles; and the recording of it in the new Testament, as it is; it should thenceforth stand so firm, that it should be an intolerable sign of incredulity; amongst them especially, that pretend they reverence, and receive the scriptures, as you would seem to do: ever to require miracles more, to confirm the same doctrine by. You were not best therefore to persuade yourselves in this sort, the howsoever it be with your religion otherwise, yet you shallbe at the least without blame, for your not receiving of ours, because we work no miracles. Deceive not yourselves. It is not with you now in respect of us, and our doctrine, as it was then with the jews, in respect of him▪ and his. Then, that he was the particular person of the Messiah, & that therefore he being come, the ceremonies of Moses law, should cease, and give place to his sacraments etc.: was a thing to be proved, & that by miracles; because it was before prophesied: whereas now those things long ago, have been sufficiently confirmed, and therefore, we preaching unto you no other doctrine, but that, so already confirmed; and requiring no further to be credited, than we can so prove our doctrine; especially, seeing the prophecies concerning these later days, show rather, the Antichrist and his Chaplains shall come, and seek to prevail by miracles, than the Lords faithful pastors: you have no such reason, as they had, nor indeed any at all, to require miracles at our hands.  
But you say unto us, as Augustine said unto the Manichees, contra epist. Fundam. cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio: with you there is no other sound, but promise that you have the truth. Whereunto add the words that immediately follow, and you are answered. For he addeth; which yet if you can make appear, is so clear of your side, that it may not be doubted of: is to be preferred, before all those things, that otherwise hold me in the Catholic Church. Be you of this mind once with Augustine, and then learn this one other lesson of him, do unitate ecclesiae, contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis, sed divinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari: I will not have demonstration made of the church, by human documents, but by the divine oracles. And so say unto us, as he said there unto Petilian; let us seek the Church, and so discuss our cause by the scriptures: behold, they are common unto us both; behold, there we have known Christ: behold, there we have known the church etc. Take this course once with us, and I doubt not, whatsoever you brag to the contrary; but we shall thereby be able, to justify both our vocation, and Religion; and to make it appear, that we have not only a brag of truth, with you and the Manichees, but the very truth itself. And this being proved, them you must yield with Augustine, that it is to be preferred, before all other outward things whatsoever, that have kept you hitherto, in an other Religion, and church: yea, than you must confess, notwithstanding all your objections otherwise against us, of novelty, paucity, jars in opinion, and whatsoever else: yet it is your duties to join with us, in receiving of this truth. Wherefore unless you will let all other buy matters go, and enter once into this question with us, in earnest; whether your Religion or ours be the truth; and for the trial thereof, will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound, and always used rules of interpreting them; colour your refusing thus to do, with what colours possibly you can, you too too grossly be wray the badness of your cause: and evidently show, that you only seek shifts, holes, and corners, to escape as long as you may, the discredit thereof. And your own friends will they, nill they, shallbe enforced to see the same.  
You conclude with prayer, that we may draw as near you, as we are far from you: and that we may turn to the flock of Christ, the which, both to your hurt and our own (you say) we have forsaken. Instead of Amen, to yours, I beseech the Lord of all mercies, and father of our Lord jesus Christ, that it would please him, of his infinite goodness and mercy, even for his dear son jesus sake; to open the eyes of your minds, and so to touch your hearts, as that you may have grace, with us, to come out of Babylon, and to leave that garish whore of Rome, with all her abominations, and so to join with us, in the true communion of Saints, and fellowship of the truth, and spirit, that both you and we may dwell together, as brethren, in one house; agree and grow together, as members of one body; & rest together, as sheep of one flock; under one father, God almighty, & under one head, & shepherd Christ jesus; through the mighty working of the holy Ghost, to God's glory, and our own everlasting comfort. Amen.    
FINIS.   

A short answer to a new offer, not published at the first, when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands, whereunto it is now annexed: the ground and matter whereof is, an enumeration of six certain and assured signs and tokens (as the offerer calleth them) of Antichristians, false prophets, heretics and schismatics, mentioned in diverse places of the scripture.  
COncerning these six signs (well-beloved) this is his offer, that if by the learned protestant they can be proved, more aptly and truly to agree to him, & his fellows, of the common known catholic church of Christ, them unto the protestāns of so many, sundry and divers sects, and congregations, that then he will submit, yield & recant, and not before. Learned protestant I take myself to be none, howbeit, finding, as I did, when I took first in hand to answer john de Albines former discourse, that the publisher thereof, had therewithal published, not only the offer of a proud papist, to a learned protestant, consisting of 22. challenges or demands, long ago answered by the men above named, but also with this new addition of these six signs; and then not understanding, though it had been thus abroad many years amongst us in English, that any learned or unlearned had vouchsafed to answer it, though I thought it needles to answer again the offer of 22. demands, so well answered by the foresaid men before, that the author thereof, never since had pleasure to reply, I thought it yet not amiss, unto my former answer to john de Albine, to annex this short answer thereunto.  
His first sign of such as he speaketh of, he saith is, their departure from the common known catholic Church of Christ, wherein they were baptised, & first received christian faith and religion, and this to be such a sign, he proveth out of the second chapter of S. john's first Epistle, where he speaking of such, saith, they departed from us, but they were not of us, for if they had, they would still have continued with us. Whereupon he thinketh, that forasmuch (as he saith) we cannot deny, but that we are the men that have thus departed from their common known catholic Church, faith and religion, wherein we were first baptised, and that we cannot say that they have so departed from us, they still remaining in the same church, faith and Religion, that they first received, that of necessity we must be enforced to grant, that this sign agreeth to us, and not to them. This (good Christian) that he hath said were of foam force, if he, any, or all his fellows together, were ever able to prove, that they, their church, faith and Religion were such, as Saint john spoke of, when he so taxed men for their departure therefrom: but seeing only most beggarly all the pack of them, this being the main question betwixt them and us, always take this for granted them, even for their bold impudent and importunate begging of it, which we will never grant them nor they shall ever be able to win at our hands, all that he hath said herein, is childish and vain. For we are always most ready and willing to join this issue with them, for and about all the controversies amongst us; that if we be not able by due conference, of the Catholic and apostolic doctrine, taught by the Apostles & Apostolic men, in the primitive church, testified and extant in their own undoubted writings, with ours, that we are of the same common known Catholic Church, faith and Religion, that they were, and that the Romish Church in the things, wherein we differ from them, is clean departed from them, and from the church of Christ, her faith and Religion that then was: that then we will (as he saith) most willingly submit ourselves, yield and recant. And I hope in answering of john de Albine, upon occasion, in sundry places, I have so showed the agreeableness of our faith and Religion with the Apostles, and the manifold disagreements of the Church of Rome, that now is, from them, and the ancient church of Rome, planted by them, as that every one, even thereby, sufficiently may see, that not we, but they, are the men, that Saint john spoke of, that have departed from the true Church of Christ, faith, and Religion; and that therefore this sign doth so far better agree to Papists then to us, that if this offerer will be as good as his word, he must presently submit himself, yield and recant. In the mean time, the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christ's, and his Apostles, made manifest unto us by the view of the scriptures themselves, and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now, and the ancient churches of Rome for six hundredth years after Christ at the least, made likewise evident unto us by all sound monuments of antiquity, have assured us, that in respect of them, and their Romish Synagogue, in these later days (to embolden us to do as we have) God from heaven by an Angel said unto us, go out of her my people, lest you be partakers of her sins, and so receive of her punishments. Apoc. 18. vers. 4. And therefore as it was lawful for Abraham, to follow the Lords calling, Gen 12. to departed out of his own country Chaldea, and to forsake the abomination thereof; as it was wisdom for Lot, at the admonition of the Angels, to go out of Sodom, Gen. 19 and as it was necessary, that Christ and his, should separate themselves from the high Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, and their errors and superstitions, though they then, & their followers bragged that they were the people of God & his church: so was it meet & requisite for us, to departed, as we have, from their Popish church, and the popery thereof. And as for our receiving our baptism amongst them, that bindeth us no more to hold communion with than still, in their false & erroneous religion, than the receiving of circumcision bound Christ & his Apostles, & those of the jews that believed by their doctrine, to continue fellowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard hearted jews or the receiving of baptism in former times at the hands of the ancient heretics the Arrians, or any other such like, bound than that were baptized by such, that they might not separate themselves from such, to return home again to the true catholic church of Christ. Again, if they think that men are bound always to live and die in that Religion, whereof they were, that baptised them, why do they labour by their jesuits & seminaries to seduce to their Religion, such as we have baptised? But yet to touch them more nearly, for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first received, let even their own Baptism, and their faith and Religion that they after profess, be compared together, and the contrary will appear. For they being all baptised in the name only of the Father, the Son & the holy Ghost, as it is well known they are, thereby they are bound only to believe in this Trinity in Unity, and Unity in Trinity, and yet afterwards all the sort of them, notwithstanding the Apostles Creed, and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same, become plain apostates from this faith, in believing in a number, both of persons and things, that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father, God the Son, or God the holy Ghost. Proof and most palpable demonstration hereof is their belief in their own merits, merits of others, Pope's pardons, hallowed water & other hallowed things, & their belief in, and therefore praying unto, Saints & Angels. In the wonderful providence of God doubtless, this form of baptism, & these creeds were preserved & continued amongst them, not only to make it even thereby evident (whatsoever any of them brag to the contrary never so oft) that they are the men that daily depart both from the faith of Christ, first taught them & their forefathers, and after particularly in their baptism confirmed to every one of them: but also to make them before both God & man, without all excuse; of their so gross apostasy from the same, notwithstanding. Whereas they know, & all the world else, that knoweth us, know, that we simply continue in this faith, first delivered untd us briefly by the holy catholic church in these creeds, & daily sealed unto us in our baptism, & that even for that it is, that we are so hated, and persecuted of them, that with them we will not run out from this church and faith, to believe in a 1000 things that are not God, as they do. And therefore, these things considered, by this note they are proved to be the Antichristian false prophets, heretics, & schismatics, that he speaketh of, and not we.  
His second sure mark, sign and token of false prophets etc. is (saith he) that they being departed from the catholic church, do of themselves, & of their own authority, without warrant, being not sent, set up a new gospel, a new faith and Religion, and so by preaching a new doctrine, assemble and set up a new church and congregation. And to prove this, Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted, whence only we may learn to this purpose, that none may take upon them an office in God's house, without lawful calling and warrant from him. Yet hereupon, as though these were most pregnant places to prove, that to be necessary to a lawful calling, which the learned protestant can never prove to be in our calling, he promiseth likewise to yield, and to recant, when we shall be able to prove our just and due vocation, ordinarily or extraordinarily, to proceed of God and not only of men. By his own words, in describing this note or mark, two things must concur to the making of it, namely, the preaching of a new Religion or Gospel, and the doing of it without a just and due vocation from God: and yet in the proving it to be such a mark, & in the applying it to us, he forgetteth altogether the former, & maketh only show of proof for the later. Belike his own conscience told him, that howsoever it was an easy matter to insinuate, that our religion was new, that yet he was not able so much as to make any show, that he could prove it so to be indeed. And touching the other, howsoever the places quoted by him, serve to prove a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such, as shall take any office upon them in his Church, yet they prove not at all, that there is any thing needful to the proving of our vocation to be such, wanting in ours, neither doth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours, which he could say we wanted: which it is likely he would not have omitted to have done, if he had seen, that with any probability he might have done it. And therefore any man may see, that even in this sign (as in the former) his only ground is a false supposition, that those things must needs be granted him all, which both most justly and confidently we always deny. For without any proof or shadow of proof, he in one period assumeth three things against us, most untruly & slanderously, (as at large in sundry places of my answer to Albine I have made it manifest) namely, that we are gone out of the true catholic Church, that we have set up a new faith and religion, and that we have assembled a new Church and congregation Yea (christian reader) if thou wouldst but vouchsafe, by the table annexed unto this answer of mine, to turn to the places in the said answer, where these points be handled, the antiquity of our church and religion, the newness of popery, and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church, that now is, & the scriptures, fathers and counsels, in the true catholic church of Christ, & the lawfulness of our calling to the ministry and the unlawfulness of their priesthood and vocation thereunto; & unto other prelacies amongst them, and when thou hast found them, to read over without partiality, what I have written hereof, I doubt not but thereby thou wouldst see, not only, that he unjustly hath here charged us with these three faults, but the most justly we may charge them with them al. And therefore thereunto referring thee for further answer unto this threefold charge of his in this place, upon that which there thou shalt find (I hope) with me thou wilt conclude, that this being a mark and a most certain sign of antichristian heretics (as he saith) that it standeth fair upon them, and not upon us, & therefore he should recant.  
The third sign & token, that the offerer talketh of, is, that such, over and above the properties touched in the two former, do preach and teach contentiously and seditiously, against the doctrine before time, taught of the common known Catholic Church of Christ, as namely (saith he) against the sacraments of Christ's Church by a flat denial of many of them, against the real presence of Christ's body in the holy eucharist, against the blessed sacrifice of the mass propitiatory both for the live and the dead, against penance & the worthy fruits thereof, by fasting, watching, and prayer & all straightness of life, against vows, invocation of Saints, prayer for souls departed, and finally against the Church itself, flatly denying, that Christ hath here upon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak, perceived or seen. The ground of which sign, he maketh that saying Hebrues 13, be you not carried away with divers and strange doctrines: so termed of the Apostle (as he expoundeth him) because they agree not, but are contrary to the received and common known doctrine of Christ's holy catholic Church: whereupon he groweth to his conclusion, that when the learned protestant shall be able to prove, that they and not we, are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers up of these strifes and contentions, than he will recant and not before. Whereunto I answer, that understanding by the common known catholic Church, the true Church of Christ, which is known and acknowledged so to be always of him and his faithful members, than we grant that this is a right mark of such as he would have it to be a mark of, and that worthily in the thirteenth of the Hebrues, all men are warned to take heed, that they be not carried away with divers and strange doctrines, from that, which she hath universally taught and received. But so taking the common known catholic Church of Christ▪ and not otherwise, I say it, and have proved it in my answer to Albine, that the Church of Rome, that now is, hath too long and doth still, not only contentiously and seditiously, but also furiously, tyrannically, bloudely, and every way antichristianly, preach against the doctrine before time taught by her, and commonly received and professed by hers, touching the true use of the law and the gospel, the office of Christ & faith in him, the doctrine of faith and works, and of prayer and the sacraments, and almost of all other principal points of the true Christian religion. And thus I am sure he must understand the church of Christ, if either he would have this to be a certain sign of heretics, or to be thought rightly to have expounded the 13. to the Hebrews. And therefore understanding by the common known catholic Church of Christ, that which he should, this mark is evident upon them, and not upon us. But if by the common known catholic church of Christ, that he talketh of here and always else, he understand (as it is apparent that he doth) their Roman church that now is, most beggarly still he beggeth that alms, that never an honest and wise man in the world would give him. For in all these points here named by him, that Synagogue a long time hath taught, and doth still, so contrary to the true and chaste spouse of Christ, that though nether seditiously nor contentiously, yet vehemently and earnestly, it is the part of all skilful, painful and faithful ministers of the Lord, to cry out against her, and her so doing. And thus only have we and do we, labour to manifest unto the world their corruption in doctrine in these points, lest thereby to their perdition, they should be seduced by them. Otherwise, whatsoever he saith, neither he nor all his faction, shall ever he able to prove against us, that we either deny any thing, or hold otherwise of any point here reckoned up by him, than we have most sound and good warrant for, both out of the scriptures, and out of the ancientest and soundest monuments of antiquity. But where as he saith, that we flatly deny that Christ hath here upon earth any spouse, or visible church to be heard speak, perceived or seen, he shamefully and untruly reporteth that of us. Only concerning the visibility or not visibility of. Christ's church, this we hold and teach, that who be the right members thereof, whereof properly she doth consist, it is not discerneable by human sense, but known only unto God, and unto those to whom God giveth spiritual senses to discern it withal: but if otherwise by the church of Christ here upon earth, be understood generally all those that by outward profession seem unto men to be thereof, than we hold and confess, that Christ hath always had here upon earth, since the beginning, and will have to the end, a visible spouse and church to be both heard speak, perceived & seen, though not always alike, nor of all sorts & kind of men, as I have showed at large in the first and fourth chapters of my answer to Albine. The only thing that we deny is, that it always hath been, and ever must be so visible and apparent, both for multitude and government, that every one should be able thereby not only to discern it, but from time to time, down from Christ to the end of the world, to name the principal persons, by whose orderly succession one to another without interruption, it hath been continued in one place or other. Now hereupon to infer, that we simply deny it to be heard, seen or perceived, argueth, that they that do so, are grown so gross, that they can neither hear, see nor perceive, that there is any difference betwixt the manner of being of a thing; & the simple being thereof. john, that never taught that the Church of Christ here upon earth should neither be heard, seen or perceived, yet teacheth Re. 12. that she would be driven by persecution of the dragon, into the wilderness, where for a time, in comparison that she was before, she should be hidden. Christ, that hath taught us, that hell gates shall never prevail against his church Mat. 16. yet foreshoweth, that towards his second coming, true faith should hardly be found upon earth Luke 18. And do we not read 2 Thessalonians. 2. and 1. Timothy 4. to that end, that before that day, there shall be a great departing from the faith, which by that which we read Revelations 17 and 18. we may understand shall be so great and so far prevail, that the whore of Babylon, there figuring unto us Antichrist and his kingdom, shall have universality and all outward pomp that may be, so on her side, that she shall make kings and people, yea all nations, drunk with the wine of her fornications. During the fulfilling of which prophecies, if it be hard for some, either to hear or see the Church, or to understand where she is, so that they cannot name the persons successively, that she consisteth of, no marvel. For distance of time and place, and ignorance, or unfaithfulness in Chroniclers, joined with a special care, that Antichrist would always, by all likelihood have, to keep from men, all means to make them to have knowledge of these things, lest thereby in the end he should fall into his consumption; in respect of sundry former times and us that live now, might make this impossible. And yet he that should say so, doth not simply say, as he here chargeth us. But God's name be blessed for it, the Church yet, was never so driven into the wilderness by the dragon, or oppressed by Antichrist, but as I have showed in my fourth Chapter of my foresaid answer to Albine, some have so heard, seen and perceived where she was, and who were her true members at all times, that there was never time or state of the Church so bad, but that we are able to name some of her friends and where they lived or died in the profession of her truth against antichristian abominations. As for the other points here reckoned up by him (gentle reader) though he would make thee believe that they are such, as in every point (as they teach them now) have always before been taught of the true Catholic church of Christ, it is nothing so: as in great part I have showed in answering of Albine, & as others thoroughly & universally have showed of them all, in several books written against them, for their Antichristian doctrine therein. Howbeit lest by his words, in the mean time whiles thou gettest leisure, to peruse what we have written, concerning these points, thou shouldest conceive worse of our doctrine, than in any show we deserve: understand, that we preach against none of Christ's sacraments, neither do we deny any sacrament of his, in that sense to be a sacrament, that he appointed it, neither do we deny Christ's real, true & most certain presence in the eucharist, to the soul of the right receiver, only a gross presence of his body, to the mouth of every receiver, fancied by them contrary both to scripture & the nature of a sacrament, & of Christ himself, is the presence that there we deny. Indeed we as zealously as we can, preach against their mass, denying it to be any propitiatory sacrifice, either for quick or dead, much less for both, because we have learned out of the epistle to the Hebrews, that only Christ is consecrated of his father, as the fit Priest of the new testament, in his own person once for all, to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, & that we learn by the words of the institution of this sacrament, that it was never instituted, to repeat that, but with faith and thanksgiving to make a commemoration thereof, and rather to offer and deliver Christ to us, them to offer him again to his father. If by penance, he understand repentance, we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof. For we most earnestly call for both, but if by penance, be understood, either voluntary or enjoined penance (as they commonly take it) joined with an opinion, thereby either to satisfy for sins past, or to merit at God's hand, because we know, that such penance, and all the fruits thereof are abominable before God, because thereby Christ is rob of that honour of a full and perfect saviour, in & by himself alone, that is due unto him, than we grant (as we have just cause) we preach against it. Otherwise, fasting, straightness of life, watching, and lawful vows, to make us more ready & fervent in holy prayer, we commend and urge. Indeed praying to Saints, because we have neither example, commandment, nor promise in God's book to encourage us thereunto, but all to the contrary, we condemn as gross idolatry: and likewise prayer for souls departed, as they use it, to relieve fowls in purgatory, for the same reasons, and sundry other, we preach against. But what we teach of these two points, and what not, and what reasons we have for our so doing, and how quite void they be of all ground for theirs, I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answer to Albine, where I have at large, showed these things. And thus much therefore for this 3 sign.  
The next is, to bring a schism into the Church, contrary to Paul's exhortation 1. Cor, 1. and that such a schism, as whereby, not only one member shall be separated from an other, but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ jesus: which we to have done, in separating ourselves from their Church, & not they, he assumeth, and so concludeth when the learned protestant can show the contrary, that he will recant and not before. Still thus thou mayest see (good reader) that this man is no changeling. For unless that be granted him, which is the main point betwixt us, that their Church is the true Church of Christ, & their doctrine the sound catholic faith and religion, he hath no ground or foundation, for any thing he saith. For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine, that every one strait is author of such a schism, as he here speaketh of, that by doctrine draweth others from every society or company, investing themselves with the name of the Church, and bragging that they have the truth. For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles, who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer cōm●●tion with the Synagogue of the jews, that then, I am sure, bragged as confidently of both these, as this man and his fellows do now? Or what would he say to those ancient catholics after Liberius time, that when Arrianisme had in great part over run the world, and the Arrians for many years together bragged themselves to be the only 〈◊〉 catholics, disgracing them that were so indeed with the name of Omousians, that yet, (though they had got both bishops and emperors so many and so fast of their opinion, that they had in ten several counsels go sentence of their side) ceased not labouring and traveling, until they had drawn men again to break from them, and to join with the poor persecuted & contempt the number, that then yet persecuted in the truth? I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this, count either Christ and his Apostles, or these ancient catholics; antichristian heretics or schismatics. And our drawing of men by our doctrine now, in these later days from them, is nothing else in truth, but an imitating, as nigh as we can, these renowned and undoubted good precedents & examples, that so, the kingdom of Antichrist according to Saint Paul's prophesy, might fall into consumption 2. Thessalonians, 2 and that great Babylon might yet at length (as it was revealed unto joh. Revelations cap. 14.) fall and come down. For not only we saw, that the Church of Rome had made a schism, but such an apostasy, even in the fundamental points of Christian religion, from Christ and his Church, that there was no remedy, but that we must break of from her, as we did, or else we could never have communion indeed in Christ with his true Church. Though therefore we know, and at the first knew, that peace, unity, and concord, were precious things, and by all lawful means to be laboured for, yet knowing withal, as we do, & did, that it is unity in verity, and not in error & impiety, with Christ & not with Antichrist, that is so much to be set by, blame us not, for choosing rather according to these good examples, to have war with men, then with God, & discord with Antichrist and all hes bread, than with Christ and his members. We grant them therefore, that to bring into the Church, such a schism, as shall make division not only amongst Christ's members, but also of the body from the head, is indeed an undoubted sign of antichristian heretics: but whereas he taketh this for granted, that this we have done, in departing from them as we have: that we deny. For we teach men to hold, & hold ourselves; that faith & religion (as we are always ready to prove by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament) that always the true Church of Christ hath held, and therefore which when hardly both holdeth the lively members amongst themselves is unity, and also knitteth them and their head Christ so fast together, as that no popish or antichristian tyranny, shall ever be able to sever them. And howsoever this proud challenge● thought wt●● impossible thing for the learned protestant, to prove that they have brought into the Church, such a schism as he speaketh of, I the unlearnedst often thousand, doubt not, that I am very well able to do it. For this is most certain and clear, jesus Christ the Saviour of the world indeed, is at this point, being every way so able and willing as he did, in his own person, and by himself alone, to go through with the office of a most perfect Saviour of mankind, that either so he must be believed in, and trusted unto for that matter, or else he taketh himself antichristianlie rob of that 〈◊〉 and glory, that is due unto him, and therefore will be no part of a saviour at all to such. That this is most true appeareth, because it is writed, that God is so jealous of his own honour and glory, that he will not abide, that any should therein be partaker with him, or rob him of any iott thereof. Esay. 42. that in him all things are already prepared, Matthew the twenty two, that his name is the only name whereby cometh salvation, Acts. 4. that he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, Reu. 1. that he is the author & finisher of our faith, Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for ever those that are sanctified, Heb. 10. that he is able to save perfectly, those that come unto God by him, He. 7. that as there is but one God, so there is but one mediator betwixt God and man, the man Christ jesus, 1. Tim. 2. and that S. Paul most confidently told the Galathians, that if with that opinion that the false Apostles had taught them they would be circumcised, Christ should profit them, nothing at all, they were fallen from grace, Gal. 5. And yet notwithstanding, the most clear and plain evidence of these scriptures, and sundry other places to the like effect, so given is the church of Rome that now is, and hath been a long time, to spoil Christ of a great part of this special honour & glory, that is due unto him, that it can abide nothing in the world worse, than that men should he driven by the schoolmaster the law, out of themselves quite, in Christ fully and freely, solely and wholly by faith, to seek for their justification here, and salvation hereafter. And therefore in it, that in the deep policy of Satan, to blunt the edge of the law, that it have not this force to break and make contrite the heart of man, with the ugly sight of his own infinite sins and punishments due unto him for the same, to drive him to hunger, and thirst after that effectual justification and salvation, offered unto men by the gospel in Christ, they teach that man hath freewill to good, that concupiscence or the first motions to sin, rising in man not consented unto, are no sin, that many sins, even for their own littleness, are venial, that by good deeds man may satisfied God for his misdeeds, that man may fulfil the law, yea that man may have works of supererogation, more than he needs for his own salvation, and that men by their works may merit a great part of their own salvation, yea have merits both before justification, flowing from their pure natural faculties and powers, to provoke GOD to think it congruum, that is, meet and convenient, that even therefore he should bestow his grace upon them, and after merits de condigno, that even for their very worthiness, deserve an everlasting reward of bliss at God's hand, both for themselves and others. And when they would seem to be come unto Christ and to believe in him, yet in no case, will they trust to him alone, and that that he hath done and still doth for them, but then his sufferings and their own, his merits and their own, and their friends, his sacrifice and their own in their mass, his mediation and the mediation of Saints and angels, and an hundredth things else, even childish and ridiculous, for the matter of salvation, must be trusted unto. That it is thus, all the world seethe, and they themselves in printed books stand upon it, that it must be thus, and that we are heretics, because we will not let them alone, in thus appareling themselves, their friends, and their toys, with the spoils of our Christ, and so their very glory, is their shame. A Christ that is so base minded, in the office of justifying and saving of men's souls, thus to be jumbled and joined, with so many partners and helpers, is a Christ of their own devising, such an one doubtless, as we can hear no news of, either in old or new testament. And therefore out of all question, they shall find, that whiles they run a madding after this fancied new Christ of their own, the old true Christ will profit them nothing at all, and that they are quite fallen from grace. No man whose eyes God hath opened aright, either to understand the law or the gospel, but seeing and knowing these things to be true of them, he must needs think and be resolved, that popery is even that mystery of iniquity, that Saint Paul speaketh of 2. Thess. 2. and that the papists be flat, those flase teachers that Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Epistle chap. 3. Which privily should bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that hath bought them, and so bring upon themselves swift damnation, whom yet many should follow, and by whom the way of truth should be evil spoken of etc. It is needful therefore, I would think, especially considering, how earnest Saint Peter is there to persuade men to shun such, for us to leave them and forsake them, as we have: the thing which in this behalf we have especially to mourn for, is, that we forsook them no sooner.  
Howbeit, though the better to countenance their Church and religion, and to prove us in thus forsaking of them, to have brought in such a schism, as he talketh of, he would make thee (christian reader) believe, that all the world were at unity with them in their faith & and false brag, as if thou readest the fourth chapter of my answer to Albine, and the 11. & 37. thou shalt most plainly see. It seemeth the man was very impudent, or very childishly ignorant of histories, that would thus write. For who of any learning or reading is ignorant, that not only the Greek church and other Eastern Churches, some hundredth years before the time that he speaketh of, broke of communion with them, but that also, even here in these Western parts, in France, Bohemia, here in England and elswher, long before this time, Petrus Valdus, john Wickliff, john Hus, & Hierom of prague, had so many followers and partakers, against them and their abominations, that for all the tyranny and most savage persecutions, that they have used to root them out by, from time to time, that yet notwithstanding, they have continued, do & will still, in one place or other, maugre all their malice, even to recompense that whore of Babylon, as she hath deserved at their hands? As for the variety of opinions amongst us, that he upbraideth us withal, it is an objection, that john de Albine often harped upon, & therefore which in answering of him, I have sufficiently (I hope) answered. Only this therefore to that I further say here, that though they be more and greater than we like of, yet they are nether so great nor many, as these our adversaries, by amplifying of this objection, & by multiplying of names, would seem to make them, nor yet in such points, but that notwithstanding, we all agree in the fundamental & most principal points of christian religion, whereby, we hope, it will thorough God's goodness come to pass, that we shall shortly also, grow to unity in the rest. In the mean time sure I am, that they whom by any reason he may say be of us, for our holding fellowship and communion together in our confession of the christian faith, are all amongst ourselves, at far more unity than such as he liketh of, & at far better unity, than they be or ever have been, since they departed from us. As for the Anabaptists & divers others whom sometime they charge us, in this case also withal, they know well enough, we defy & detest them, & their frantic opinions, as much as any, and of all men we have been the forwardest, in writing against them. And therefore they do us the more wrong, when at any time, they aggravate this objection against us, by charging us to have such amongst us, whom thus we shun and mislike aswell as they. Thus much therefore, let suffice for answer to this fourth sign, and now let us proceed to the next.  
The next is, not to obey, but resist the Prelates of the Church, which he would prove so to be by Paul's saying 2. Tim. 3. like as jannes' and ●ambres resisted Moses, so do these resist the truth, being men of corrupt minds & reprobates in faith, of which fault when the learned protestant can prove them guilty, and us clear, he promiseth to recant. It seemeth the man in alleging this text, did trust his memory too much, for twice he hath written Mambres for jambres, but if that were all his fault here, it were a small matter. But here again, according to his old wont, he must have it freely given and granted him, for he bringeth nothing at all to prove it, that their Bishops and Prelates are all such, as Moses & Paul was, that is, faithful in teaching only God's people the truth. For unless this be yielded him, it neither may be granted him, that he rightly apply his text, nor this sign against us. But he knoweth well enough, and so do all the pack of them, that we are so far from being so prodigal in our gifts unto them, that we hold their prelate's, bishops & Priests, to be very jamnes & jambres in resisting our Bishops and ministers, in teaching the same truth, that they have learned of Moses & Paul, and that therefore we think no better of them, then of men of corrupt minds & reprobate in the faith. For which cause we are sure, we both may and aught to disobey them, and resist them, as we do. For so we find, that Esay, Hieremy, Amos, Michaiah, Christ and his Apostles, in their times, refused to obey, and resisted the false doctrine, of the false Prophets, and high Priests, that then were. What a vanity is it therefore, in this man to trouble his reader, with such cold and poor stuff as this is.  
And truly he hath no better hap in the last, then in any of the former. For setting it down, that fickleness and slipperiness of errors and heresies, is a sign and sure token to bewray the authors thereof, and that the catholic faith or truth, is likewise to be known, by the constant stability thereof, he saith that which we grant to be very true, as willingly as he, or any of his side. Insomuch that commonly it is one of the principal reasons, that we use to prove their opinions, that we strive against them for, to be errors or heresies, & themselves for now holding them so obstinately, as they do, heretics, for that we are able to show, how by stealing and soft paces, stily they began first to creep in, and so went on from worse to worse, until (to use his own term) they came ad prosundum malorum, that is even to the depth of all evil, that they are now grown unto therein. Who so readeth my answer to Albines publishers preface, and the 37. Chapter of my answer to Albine himself, shall find, that in a good sort of their opinions, I have showed this. But to prove this, that it is the property of heretics to be fickle and moving, and so soon to perish & pass away, he allegeth S. Peter, saying, that lying masters do bring upon themselves swift damnation, & their destruction sleepeth not: which he spoke of gods judgements that undoubtedly should overtake such men, & not as he understandeth him, to show that their opinions always should soon pass away and vanish. In the former sense it is always found true, that S. Peter writeth, either here, or else where, or both: but take it in the later sense, than Peter shall often be found to have prophesied of such, untruly. For who knoweth not, that the gross errors of Turcism are of very long continuance, & that the error of the Aethiopians for circumcision is far more ancients, and that yet it continueth? And must not of necessity the errors and heresies of Antichrist be of very long continuance, seeing Paul (as we have heard) confesseth, that the mystery of that iniquity began to work in his time, above 1500. years ago, and that it should not quite be abolished, before Christ's second coming, who then should yet by the brightness of his coming abolish it 2. Thess. 2? The truth of whose prophecy in that place, is the very true ground of the antiquity, universality, and continuance of the popish and Antichristian Religion. So that howsoever it hath fallen out in some heresies, that they have in Gods most wise providence, even quickly brought themselves to an end, by their fickleness & moving, yet it appeareth, in that place the sin of not believing the truth, so notably taught and confirmed by Christ and his Apostles, in the just judgement of God, by Antichristianity is so severely to be punished, that therewith, even from the Apostles days to the end of the world, they that commit that sin, shall be in danger to be deluded and seduced most dangerously. Which I say, and sure I am I can prove it, hath been and yet is, most notoriously verified by popery, to the wonderful hurt and destruction of souls. Howbeit this man would feign apply this sign unto us, for that amongst us (as it pleaseth him to write) here in England, for the love we bear to the doctrine of the Zwinglians, Oecolampadians and Caluinists, the Lutherans have taken their just overthrow, and for that now here, Precisians and Puritans (as he saith) through the affection of the common people, and so winking at them, by some magistrates, have brought the Zwinglians and Caluinists, to be ready to yield up the ghost, and to tilt up their heels. But these are but vain words, and prove not his purpose. For all these, howsoever in other matters of lesser moment they too much disagree, yet as I have said before, and as it is notoriously known, for the principal articles of religion, concerning faith or manners, they are in constant unity, holding the same all of them, that they have learned in these points out of the Canonical scriptures, as the harmony of their confessions extant to the world in print, make it evident.  
As for the several and private opinions of Luther, and his too earnest followers, which we now mislike, we have likewise always misliked, and therefore in that respect they have no other overthrow amongst us, than they always since we first heard of them have had, and howsoever in these points, we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins judgement than theirs, yet certain it is, that we build not our faith of them; nor of them, or by them, delight we to be called; we protest and profess ourselves to be christians, and of him only and of his undoubted spirit, speaking unto us in the canonical scriptures have we learned our religion, with which, as far as we find any man to agree, we reverence him, as it becometh us in the Lord, & further we take not ourselves bound to follow any man, whatsoever he be. That Puritans and Precisians, have brought the ancient Protestants of this land of all sorts to any such point, by any such means as he speaketh of, he speaketh both untruly and slanderously. For such, as for their preposterous zeal and factious turbulent spirits, amongst us deserve so to be called and accounted, neither are for number so many, nor for credit so affected of the common people, nor winked at of the magestrats, as he pretendeth. But if there were as many fond sectaries that have arisen up amongst us these late years, as this man and other of his fellows sometime would have men to believe, as long yet, as we for all that, continue constant not only in the very same religion that we were of, when we first broke of from them, but also in that which hath plentiful and most plain warrant both from the canonical scriptures and all sound antiquity, as we have a thousand times showed, and yet still are willing and ready always to do, why should they thus odiously be objected against us, to disgrace either us, or our religion, especially seeing we are sorry for it, and show our mislike thereof as we do? May any man justly disgrace the Apostles, and the apostolic churches, for that even in their times, there arose so many sectaries and heretics, amongst the Churches planted by them, as both by their own writings and other Ecclesiastical histories it is notoriously known there did? Hath not Christ even of purpose, to prevent all offence taking hereat, compared his kingdom Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good seedsman having sown good wheat, the envious man so soweth his tars, that they come up together with the wheat, and so will do unto the harvest? To let vain words and brags go, let them prove but once any of them, or all of them together, either that their religion is the plain way of salvation, beaten by our forefathers for these 1500. years past, or that ours is not that very truth, that Christ and his Apostles taught, as a perpetual truth, for the true church constantly to hold to the world's end, and we will strive with them no longer. But as this is a matter too hard & heavy for them, so they are content to let it alone, and with fallacies & vain words, to try if they can beguile the simple people, and bring them to a misliking of that, which to mislike indeed they are not able to give them one sound reason. And therefore to conclude, that both beginning, ending, and always, this man may be like himself, he taketh it for granted, that their religion is the sound catholic faith, that the martyr Sebastian meant by his loaf, which broken and broken again, after it was once well made and baked, by sectaries & heretics (as he told Genserichus the tyrant) would never become better: and that ours is but a breaking of it, to make it better again, which will never be. Whereas we constantly hold & affirm, that we may justly say to all papists, even as Sebastian said to that tyrant. For the loaf that we feed on, and would have all others to feed on, with us, we are able to prove is that, the grain whereof Christ himself, by his faithful servants, hath sown in the sound field of the canonical scriptures, & which he himself hath ground, kneaden, & baked for us and for all his children. And likewise we are able to prove, that this fine white loaf of the Lords own preparing, always lying ready in the storehouse of his written word, the Romish church hath a long time & doth still as much loath, as ever the children of Israel did Manna. And therefore as they preferred in their conceits, garlic, leeks, & onions, & the fleshpots of Egypt, before that heavenvly food, so hath she and doth she a massive loaf, the corn whereof must not come only out of the foresaid field of the Lord, for than it would have no favour with them, but in great part, out of the rotten field of men's traditions & inventions, before the pure white loaf of the lords own making. Wherefore to conclude, all his speech or exhortation, grounded upon this story out of Victor de persecutione Vandalorum, any man may see, we might far more justly, use against themselves of the Romish Church, to persuade them as they regard their own salvation, etc. to content themselves with us, with this Sebastian's loaf, of the first and best making.  
I have thus, thou seest (good reader) but briefly passed over these things: and the rather I have so done, first, because I found no matter in them, but grounded upon shameless begging of that which is most in question: and secondly, because in my answer to Albine, I had upon occasion given me by him, already answered all, or most of his assumptions against us, in the applying of these signs unto us. But lastly, by view of an answer made at large, by master Crowley, both to the 22. demands and these six signs also, that came to my hands since my finishing of this answer of mine, I see, if it had been undone, I might well have spared all my labour herein. If therefore thou desirest any further answer, concerning any of these, I refer thee to him. And thus I take my leave of thee, beseeching the Lord now and ever to bless both thee and me, and hearty praying thee to remember me always in thy godly prayers to God: to whom be all glory, praise, and dominion now and ever.  
Thine in the Lord: Thomas Spark.   

A Table whereby readily to find out the principal matters contained in the former answer to Albine, or any of his favourers, wherein because until thou comest to the answer to Albine himself, the pages are not figured in the top, as in the rest: for any thing before handled, the page of the letter in the bottom of those leaves, whereof there are 16 for every letter, is noted for thy direction.  

A.  

Abbeys why and how suppressed, pa. 287.  
Albine convicted of blasphemy, p. 95. 96. 186. 375. 378.  
Albine showeth himself to have been of a profane spirit. 269.  
Albines' publishers method in his epistle to the reader discovered. b. p. 11. 12. & 13.  
Albines own method and the folly thereof laid open. E. 4. 5. 6  
Albines cunning in running from the question. 6 7 9 10. 11. etc.  
Albine notorious in abusing scriptures. 2. 3. 36. 37.  
Albine worthy to be famous for abusing of fathers. 47. 51. 85. 86. 119. etc. 126. etc. 131 134 156. & ca p. 37. through out.  
Antiquity protestants rather have than papists and true antiquity protestants stand unto. 102. 158. etc.  
Auricular confession dangerous. E. p. 9 & p. 322.  
Auricular confession confuted at large. c. 37. p. 322. etc.    

B.  

Baptism and the ceremonies at large spoken of. 308. etc.  
Baptism that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration. 280. etc.  
Baptism bindeth not always the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him. p. 395. 410.  
Bade always intermingled with good. 404.  
Beza defended against Albines slanders. 400  
Bondage under popery as great as Israel's under Pharaoh. 170. etc.  
Bohemians doings considered and defended. 291. etc.    

C.  

Caluins' argument against the popish priesthood, that it is not of God unanswered by Albine. p. 5.  
Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood, C. p. 15. & 16.  
Collier's faith what it is. 222  
Christ will be a whole and sole Saviour or else no Saviour at all. 419.  
Christ's Church perpetual, but not always visible in the popish sense. 37. etc. & 122. 413. etc.  
Church why called catholic and so the popish church is not catholic. p. 360.  
Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news, & they ought not to prejudice the truth. 68 69. 250.  
Contentious popish many and great. 70. 71. 97. 252. etc.  
Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in. 161.  
Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesy as Albine would seem he had. 94. 95  
Cruelty of papists in seeking to prevail & to stand by force. 155. etc. 291. etc.  
Cathechising in popery how bad it hath been 179. etc.  
Counsels have erred, and that even papists confess. 230. etc.  
Communion under one kind is but a new devise. 159.  
Christ was to prove his calling by miracles and yet not we. 188. etc. & 403.    

D.  

DEdicating of books to great persons hath good and ancient precedents. A. p. 11. and 12.  
Departure from the Roman Church, that now is, lawful. 149. 394. 417. etc. 409. etc.    

E.  

EDucation bindeth not the party to be always of their religion that brought him up. 181.  
to be read, but not so, as to discourage the simple from the study of them, 205. 208 etc.  
Scriptures alleged in their true sense the ground that protestants stand upon 205 etc.  
Scriptures though never so much abused by heretics, yet by them they must be confuted. 226.  
Scriptures must expound scriptures. 47. 210. 224.  
Scriptures they which allege best they are to be followed, 245 etc.  
Scriptures must try who hath the spirit of God, 222 etc.  
Scriptures are to be studied and read of all men, 209 etc.  
Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists, the better to shun trial by them, 82 etc. 212 etc.  
Scriptures fondly alleged and applied by Papists, 35 etc. 218.  
Scriptures in some sense may well be understood according to the tradition of the Church. 87. 393.  
Scriptures whither rightlier alleged by protestants or papists examined, 215. 216. etc.  
Scriptures are so alleged by protestāns, that they therefore are to be believed and neither papist nor heretic 215 etc.  
Scriptures are both, judge and witness. 262.  
Scriptures are the only sound touchstone both of truth, church & al. 33 etc. 46 etc. 244 406.  
Scriptures by Papists thought never to be sound interpreted, but according to the present practice of the Roman Church, 214. 219.  
Sin is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists, 285. 404.  
Succession papists have neither Personal, 25 etc.  
Succession papists have neither Local, 25 etc.  
Succession papists have neither not real, 21 etc. 27  
Succession Popish we reject not so much for their bad lives as doctrine, 92. 301.  
Succession neither local nor personal any certain note of truth, 27 etc.  
Succession in the truth, the only succession indeed, to be stood simply upon, 31 etc.  
Supper of the Lord wonderfully perverted of the Papists. 31. 416.  
Supremacy of the Pope, new, how & by whom it came up, and by whom still resisted, p. 11. etc. 161. etc.    

T.  

Traditions beside the word written countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others, p. 1 & 2. 76 etc.  
Traditions unwriten the ground of popery. C. p. 5. p. 82.  
Traditions beside and contrary to the word written rejected by the fathers, C. 2. p. 46 78. etc. 224. etc.  
Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers, always warranted by the scriptures, C. p. 2 & 3.  
Traditions unwriten heretics commonly fly unto, even as the papists do, p. 5 & 6 33.  
Transubstantiation when it came in and how confuted, D. 7 & 8. p. 109.  
Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit, and in what sense that is to be taken. 274 278. etc.  
Truth is to be preferred before custom & all things else. C. p. 7. 86. 100 406.  
Truth is not tied to bishop's mouths and chairs. 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. etc.  
Truth is most ancient, and that is it that came from the Apostles, 102.  
Turks and jews take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation. 217.    

V  

VIsible & demonstrable succession is neither certain note of Church not truth. 28, ●7. etc. 51.  
Unity and Christian peace may and aught to be kept in the Church, though the rites be divers. 312. etc.  
Unity unless it be in verity men are not to continue in. 417. etc.  
Unity in every thing followeth not upon right praying for the spirit. 247. etc.  
Unity papists have not though they brag thereof never so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252.  
Universality indeed the Romish Church hath not. 388, etc.  
Vocation ordinary hath not always been found in them that, have been means of the conversion of nations & that have profitably preached. 30. 123. etc.  
Vocation may be good and lawful, though the called have faults. 131. &  
Vocation of what sort popish prelate's have 14 etc.  
Vows in popery foolish and superstitious. 306. etc.    

W.  

WAnts and faults of the Church to reform men are not bound only to use prayer. 141.  
Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to be preferred before the broad way. 395. etc.  
Works that are good indeed rather found with protestants than with papists. 280. etc. 286. 404.    
FINIS.   

Faults escaped in printing, through the absence of the author, the hardness and smallness of the hand, wherein the copy was offered to the press, and the unacquaintance of the overseers with the same.  
A. p. 1 l. 26. ●: why for when. 4. 16. before for unto. B. 1. 7: the for that. l. 33. the for their. 15. 16: for second 11. & l. 20: when for whom l. 35: for the their. C. 1. 12: pruning for proving. 7. 12: them for them. & l. 25: put in, I say, next therefore. 12. 23: for first sixth 15. 11: put out of disposed the first s. D. 2. 9: Paula for pacta. and in Armonians, e for o: and in Moralia, is for l. 6. 9 put in next them, they do. 7. 1: that for the 9 34: but chose for choosing E. 1. 26: them for then. 8. 31: them for then. 9 29. pal for paul. p. 15. of the book. r: Lando for lando, and so ever, 17. 12: Bale for he, and l. 20: Boniface for Gregory. &. l. 21: Sicilia, and so always. 30. Constantius for Constantine & l. 35. 25: for 15. 47. 13: Portunatian & Paulina. 64. 32: Aelfricke for Alcuinus & l. 34: put out Ael●ricke, 78. 14: quam for quae. & l. 28. wrote for wrought. 81. 16: for he, r: Aug: most truly. 89. 25● for it, doth. 101. 19: put out, all, 111. r: 24. for 4. & 1. for 4. l. 29. 131. r: Bath●heba. 133. 7: r: loyalty. 142. 31: whom for when. 146. 9 for, for from. 156. 29: r: of for if. 162. 28: r: Tatianists 170. 9: r: as for and. 171. 8: put in been, next have. 172. 33. shun for show. 180. 26. your for you. 181. 1. put in, you cast before Cal. 189. 25. need for have 190. 11. answered for enforced. 202. 3: the for that. 203. r: phygelus, & l. 35: thus for this. 204. 33: do for to. 213. 34: of for oft. 215. 12: next truth, put in that. 216 21: r: and, next followed. 218. 27: r: etc. for &. 220. r: Marcionites l. 38. 229, 13: the for their. 230 r: Selencian, l. 33. 232. 11: put in and next held: 240. 38: r: 18. for 15. 245. 25: next confute put out them. 246. 25: after for after, 253. r: Peucer for pencer. & l. 37. so for to. 262. 23: r: scriptures. 284. 20: for it next else, r: the spirit. & l. 21. put in in, next except. 306. 26: r: them for then. 110. 40: r: taking for take. 311. 22. evils for well, & l. 30. either for other. 312. 10: so for to. l. 23. case for cause. l. 21. aliqua. for antiqua. 317. 8. either for, other. 320. 35: Hieremy for Hierom. 322. 2: with, for which it. and l. 30. put out, this. 323. 11: r. severely for severally. 331. 27. us for us. l. 29. put out ere. 339. 21 but for both. and l. 34. put in, to them, before thus, 342. 33. women for woman. 344. 34. ask for asked. 347. 11. put in them next before the. l. 14. put out that. l. 23 r: doted for doubted. 348. l. last, put next to life not only. 350. 33. thy for the. l. 39 that for the. 353. 14. r: that for the, and l. 29. r: fond for sound. 355. r: Mercia for Mercta. 357. r: Dennis for Demus. 362. 11. chastity for charity. & l 22. r. Furnitanorum. & l. 29. r: Geminius for Heminius. 365. 24. r: we for he. 369. 15. knew for know. 374. 15. so for to. 377. 37. fear for sear. 394. 31. communion for common. 396. 21. Constantius for Constantine. p. 240. l. last, next faith and, put in, religion until within these 60. years or thereabout: it is but a vain.  
Some other small faults in the notes upon Albine, in pointing and otherwise, especially in taking one letter for another in some proper names there be: but because they are such, as either will not trouble the reader at all, or that most easily of himself he may correct, they were not here set down.  
This only further (Christian reader) the author desireth thee, that in steed of the 8 & 9 lines of the 112. page, thou wouldst read 2. book to king Trasimund & Aug. ep. 57 ad Dardanum, and Vigilius against Eutiches lib. 4. cap. 4. so urge the verity, locality and circumscriptible●es of Christ's 〈◊〉 ma●e body, that therewith, by no means your doctrine of transubstantiation can stand.